# The Canadian Political Thread



## ehMax

Now that the 2011 election is over, let's use this thread to discuss Canadian politics as they transpire over the next 4 years. 

Please keep the discussion civil and I kindly request no personal attacks or insults directed towards fellow ehMac members. 

It would be refreshing to avoid over-the-top hyperbole as well.  We're all Canadians and lets not make people out to be left-wing or right-wing caricatures or turn things into a WWE fight promo. 

I may not be a supporter of Prime Minster Harper, but he does endorse ehMac.ca. 



















^ Picture I took on a nice trip to Ottawa this past winter.


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## groovetube

great stuff. For the record, I'm neither left nor right, since I've discover yogic flying.


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## CubaMark

In the now-closed "Canadian Election" thread, Dr. G. noted:


> _One good outcome from this election -- There will be more women in the House of Commons following Monday's federal election that saw 76 women elected, the highest number of women ever._


Anyone have a breakdown of that by party?


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## whatiwant

CubaMark said:


> In the now-closed "Canadian Election" thread, Dr. G. noted:
> 
> 
> Anyone have a breakdown of that by party?


So long as they're a bit more honest than Oda that's cool.


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## ehMax

CubaMark said:


> In the now-closed "Canadian Election" thread, Dr. G. noted:
> 
> 
> Anyone have a breakdown of that by party?


I don't know, but I think more woman in office is a great thing. I think if woman / mother's ran all countries, there would be a lot less wars and perhaps even world peace. 

*Just saw this video today* which I thought was extremely uplifting.


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## ehMax

jawknee said:


> So long as they're a bit more honest than Oda that's cool.


Who's Oda?


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## Ottawaman

Bev ^ *not* Oda


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## ehMax

Ottawaman said:


> Bev ^ *not* Oda


Now I'm really confused.


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## Macfury

groovetube said:


> great stuff. For the record, I'm neither left nor right, since I've discover yogic flying.


I still have the Doug Henning bumper sticker.


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## whatiwant

Ottawaman said:


> Bev ^ *not* Oda


Oda's her hockey name. 

"Bev Oda"


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## Ottawaman

> n February 2011, Bev Oda admitted to directing one of her staff to add a hand-written annotation to an already signed Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) memo in 2009 that resulted in a funding recommendation for KAIROS being ignored.[7] The memo was altered by the addition of 'not' into the recommendation line of the document.[8] For more than a year, Oda had represented this change as an action taken by CIDA staff, when in fact it was a political decision made at her direction. KAIROS is a faith-based human rights organization, and has been attacked by Conservatives for an allegedly anti-Israel stance in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. When asked about the matter, Oda had at first told Parliament that she did not know who had made the change.[7]
> 
> Opposition MPs in the House Foreign Affairs committee requested that the Speaker rule on the possible contempt of parliament against Oda; this would be the first time in Canadian history that a sitting cabinet minister would be found in contempt. Prime Minister Harper continued to support Oda.[9] On March 9, 2011, the Speaker of the House made a ruling on the issue of Oda's behaviour, stating that "on its face" Oda's statements had caused confusion, which still persisted. Oda replied in the House that she was ready to answer to the confusion, at a House of Commons special committee meeting to be held over three full days the following week.[10] Speaker Peter Milliken found the Conservatives in contempt of Parliament on this issue as well as on a second matter; the opposition parties then called for a vote of confidence, which led to the 2011 Canadian Federal Election.[11][12] That election saw Oda retain her seat with 54% of the popular vote.[13]


Bev Oda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The Bev Oda affair and the Tories’ scandal-management strategy - Canada - Macleans.ca


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## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I still have the Doug Henning bumper sticker.


you get bonus points if it's actually on your vehicles bumper.


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## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you get bonus points if it's actually on your vehicles bumper.


What--and spoil the beauty of my "Reagan/Bush in '84" original?


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## singingcrow

CubaMark said:


> In the now-closed "Canadian Election" thread, Dr. G. noted:
> 
> 
> Anyone have a breakdown of that by party?


NDP - 40
CPC - 28
Liberals - 6
BC - 1
Green - 1


Record number of women elected - Canada Votes 2011 - CBC News


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## BigDL

KPS said:


> Let me fix that for you:
> 
> "Harper strongly signals he couldn't give a care about a separatist Quebec"
> 
> Here's my other prediction:
> 
> Layton will be the next Duceppe...obsessed with Quebec trying to protect those 55 seats many of which were won on protest votes. Many will be 1 term MPs.


Which Quebec citizens are the Sovereignists that Harper cares little for? Does Harper have a list or is it a list from CSIS?

Layton say he want to include Quebec in the Constitution seem like a noble aim IMO. This would cut the legs out from underneath sovereignists. Layton is wise enough to know that the popularity he enjoys today or was that yesterday was a fluke. I'm sure Jack will as he has indicated will work to have the newly elected NDP/NPD MP's educated in the methods to truly represent their constituents. 

Given the number of new representative and how little critical review the electorate took before voting I can not argue with anyone on this point.


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## Vandave

BigDL said:


> Layton say he want to include Quebec in the Constitution seem like a noble aim IMO. This would cut the legs out from underneath sovereignists. Layton is wise enough to know that the popularity he enjoys today or was that yesterday was a fluke. I'm sure Jack will as he has indicated will work to have the newly elected NDP/NPD MP's educated in the methods to truly represent their constituents.
> 
> Given the number of new representative and how little critical review the electorate took before voting I can not argue with anyone on this point.


Get ready for amateur hour. Now imagine if the NDP and Liberals scored more seats than the Conservatives and this group started to run the country. The 2% of voters who jumped to the Conservatives on the last day deserve our eternal gratitude.


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## Paddy

ehMax said:


> Now that the 2011 election is over, let's use this thread to discuss Canadian politics as they transpire over the next 4 years.
> 
> Please keep the discussion civil and I kindly request no personal attacks or insults directed towards fellow ehMac members.
> 
> It would be refreshing to avoid over-the-top hyperbole as well.  We're all Canadians and lets not make people out to be left-wing or right-wing caricatures or turn things into a WWE fight promo.
> 
> I may not be a supporter of Prime Minster Harper, but he does endorse ehMac.ca.


Mr. Mayor, if Harper is 6'-2" as claimed, how tall are YOU? You make him look like a midget. 

During the election campaign of 1979, I was working in PEI for the summer and both Clark and Trudeau came through campaigning. Not a lot to do in PEI before the tourist season starts, so whatever their political stripe, everyone turned out to hear them speak. On both occasions, I happened to be on the path through the gym that each took and got to shake hands with both. I was amazed at how SHORT Trudeau was and how TALL Clark was. Pictures can be deceiving. You weren't standing on a box were you?


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## ehMax

Paddy said:


> Mr. Mayor, if Harper is 6'-2" as claimed, how tall are YOU? You make him look like a midget.
> 
> During the election campaign of 1979, I was working in PEI for the summer and both Clark and Trudeau came through campaigning. Not a lot to do in PEI before the tourist season starts, so whatever their political stripe, everyone turned out to hear them speak. On both occasions, I happened to be on the path through the gym that each took and got to shake hands with both. I was amazed at how SHORT Trudeau was and how TALL Clark was. Pictures can be deceiving. You weren't standing on a box were you?


Always said I was 6'6" for years, but recently was measured at 6'7". A little taller depending what shoes I'm wearing. 

As I walked up to him, he commented on my height right away. Didn't realize that the guy took two pictures on my iPhone, the one below is right when he's saying it. 










There was a professional photographer there too, who took a picture of us and gave me a card with a number on it. Said I had to email the address on the card and give the number and they would email the picture to me. I followed the instructions and I'm still waiting for the photo to arrive.


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## MacDoc

> Get ready for amateur hour. Now imagine if the NDP and Liberals scored more seats than the Conservatives and this group started to run the country.


amateur hour....what a hoot.

Martin built the soundest financial structure in the western world and was lauded by his peers around the world.
Reduced the deficit ( not easily ) and the national debt to the best numbers around.

Harpo expands government beyond belief, floods the Senate with hangers on, over sees corporate welfare to his oil patch buddies, oversees the worst gov deficit ever after cutting the one tax every single economist said he should not and running deep into the red putting the national numbers back 15 years.

Yeah there are indeed amateurs running the country.....called the Cons for good reason. Hell he didn't even see the worst recession in 70 years coming and it was on his doorstep. 

That was 2 seats Muloonie was left with after HIS extravaganza..

..._."every time we fail to learn from history, it costs more"_


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## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> That was 2 seats Muloonie was left with after HIS extravaganza..
> 
> ..._."every time we fail to learn from history, it costs more"_


He was too far to the left. This has been fixed. Time to slash and burn.


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## Vandave

MacDoc said:


> amateur hour....what a hoot.
> 
> Martin built the soundest financial structure in the western world and was lauded by his peers around the world.
> Reduced the deficit ( not easily ) and the national debt to the best numbers around.
> 
> Harpo expands government beyond belief, floods the Senate with hangers on, over sees corporate welfare to his oil patch buddies, oversees the worst gov deficit ever after cutting the one tax every single economist said he should not and running deep into the red putting the national numbers back 15 years.
> 
> Yeah there are indeed amateurs running the country.....called the Cons for good reason. Hell he didn't even see the worst recession in 70 years coming and it was on his doorstep.
> 
> That was 2 seats Muloonie was left with after HIS extravaganza..
> 
> ..._."every time we fail to learn from history, it costs more"_


10:1 says you will be complaining about the pending budget cuts ans Senate reform. :lmao:


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## dona83

I'd love to meet Stephen Harper and have a discussion with him.


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## Dr.G.

dona83 said:


> I'd love to meet Stephen Harper and have a discussion with him.


I did once, at the Calgary Airport. He was not PM at the time, which is why I guess I was able to walk up to him and chat for 5 minutes. Voted for him after that, but he seemed to have changed after becoming PM, and have not voted for him since.

Still, he struck me as an intelligent and honorable person.


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## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> What--and spoil the beauty of my "Reagan/Bush in '84" original?


Au H2O in '64 :clap::clap::clap:


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## Dr.G.

ehMax said:


> Now that the 2011 election is over, let's use this thread to discuss Canadian politics as they transpire over the next 4 years.
> 
> Please keep the discussion civil and I kindly request no personal attacks or insults directed towards fellow ehMac members.
> 
> It would be refreshing to avoid over-the-top hyperbole as well.  We're all Canadians and lets not make people out to be left-wing or right-wing caricatures or turn things into a WWE fight promo.
> 
> I may not be a supporter of Prime Minster Harper, but he does endorse ehMac.ca.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ Picture I took on a nice trip to Ottawa this past winter.


Great pics, Mr. Mayor. Amazing that you could get PM Harper to give an ehMacLand "thumbs up". 

Parliament seems to be tilting to the right. Have you ever been to Pisa, Italy? 

Paix, mon ami.


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## ertman

Vandave said:


> 10:1 says you will be complaining about the pending budget cuts ans Senate reform. :lmao:


I think were still waiting on the senate reform...


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## groovetube

Vandave said:


> Get ready for amateur hour. Now imagine if the NDP and Liberals scored more seats than the Conservatives and this group started to run the country. The 2% of voters who jumped to the Conservatives on the last day deserve our eternal gratitude.


yes. We certainly can't have ministers that would do things like leave documents that are top secret for reason of national security lying around for bikers or anyone to read, that sort of thing.:lmao:


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## MannyP Design

MacDoc said:


> amateur hour....what a hoot.
> 
> Martin built the soundest financial structure in the western world and was lauded by his peers around the world.
> Reduced the deficit ( not easily ) and the national debt to the best numbers around.


That "sound" financial structure included expropriating pension money from its employees (how many billions was that? Oh, yeah…close to 30 billion dollars.)

Amateur hour indeed.


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## groovetube

MannyP Design said:


> That "sound" financial structure included expropriating pension money from its employees (how many billions was that? Oh, yeah…close to 30 billion dollars.)
> 
> Amateur hour indeed.


The money had to come from somewhere, while we can all disagree -where- it should have come from, I'm interested in hearing where the cuts should have come from. (And no cutting funds from the CBC wouldn't have balanced budget.. )


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## MannyP Design

groovetube said:


> The money had to come from somewhere, while we can all disagree -where- it should have come from, I'm interested in hearing where the cuts should have come from. (And no cutting funds from the CBC wouldn't have balanced budget.. )


I think one of the very first places to look to stem bleeding is when every single department dumps the rest of its budget at the end of the fiscal year. Seriously, some departments try to load up on expensive computers just to burn the cash as quickly as possible.


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## groovetube

MannyP Design said:


> I think one of the very first places to look to stem bleeding is when every single department dumps the rest of its budget at the end of the fiscal year. Seriously, some departments try to load up on expensive computers just to burn the cash as quickly as possible.


what sort of figures does this represent? Will this balance the budget?


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## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> what sort of figures does this represent? Will this balance the budget?


According to Harper it will balance the budget 1yr earlier!


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## Macfury

Conservative cost-saving measures will soon be placed in a thread called "Harper's Sins."


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## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> Conservative cost-saving measures will soon be placed in a thread called "Harper's Sins."


A few of them probably rightly so...


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## ertman

MannyP Design said:


> I think one of the very first places to look to stem bleeding is when every single department dumps the rest of its budget at the end of the fiscal year. Seriously, some departments try to load up on expensive computers just to burn the cash as quickly as possible.


Yes, this happen everywhere including in business. The problem is how do you deal with it. Much like in the private sector this problem may always exist. This is because strategies created to deal with this has been less than 100% effective, as other problems crop up.

Indiscriminate slashing of budgets and employees are ineffective at dealing with the underlying issues. Such as the problem mentioned above, or over staffing as they hurt departments being ran efficiently or currently understaffed.


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## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Get ready for amateur hour. Now imagine if the NDP and Liberals scored more seats than the Conservatives and this group started to run the country. The 2% of voters who jumped to the Conservatives on the last day deserve our eternal gratitude.





MacDoc said:


> amateur hour....what a hoot.
> 
> Martin built the soundest financial structure in the western world and was lauded by his peers around the world.
> Reduced the deficit ( not easily ) and the national debt to the best numbers around.
> 
> Harpo expands government beyond belief, floods the Senate with hangers on, over sees corporate welfare to his oil patch buddies, oversees the worst gov deficit ever after cutting the one tax every single economist said he should not and running deep into the red putting the national numbers back 15 years.
> 
> Yeah there are indeed amateurs running the country.....called the Cons for good reason. Hell he didn't even see the worst recession in 70 years coming and it was on his doorstep.
> 
> That was 2 seats Muloonie was left with after HIS extravaganza..
> 
> ..._."every time we fail to learn from history, it costs more"_


MacDoc you are not seeing big picture here. When our Glorious Leader spends recklessly it's OK. He's a professional. As a trained economist any spending by, Our Glorious Leader, will be claimed by his disciples to be, on the basis of his professional training, so it is never amateurish. It may ideologically driven, it may offer poor value, it maybe pork barreling in its finest form but is always professionally spent.


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## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Conservative cost-saving measures will soon be placed in a thread called "Harper's Sins."





BigDL said:


> MacDoc you are not seeing big picture here. When our Glorious Leader spends recklessly it's OK. He's a professional. As a trained economist any spending by, Our Glorious Leader, will be claimed by his disciples to be, on the basis of his professional training, so it is never amateurish. It may ideologically driven, it may offer poor value, it maybe pork barreling in its finest form but is always professionally spent.


Amen, Brother BigDL. Hopefully the "tax and spend" folks like Macfury will stop seeing these cuts as "sins", and rather see them as needed cuts to sustain our economy. Imagine, calling expenditures to build bigger and more secure prisons a sin???  He, along with the other "pie in the sky we deserve a social safety net" crowd will soon realize that there is "no free lunch", and survival of the fittest is the order of the day ............... at least for the next four years.

Just think, political stability and economic growth and prosperity for the next 4 1/2 years ............ :love2::love2::love2::love2:

Gotta love Our Glorious Leader.

Paix, mon ami.


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## MannyP Design

groovetube said:


> what sort of figures does this represent? Will this balance the budget?


No way of knowing without looking at the books… but it's a start. The funny thing about balancing budgets is that it's usually the culmination of many smaller things that help bring about one big change.

What the government needs to learn is that when you control the small things, you won't need to rely on, for example, a big solution (stealing billions from your employees) to balance the books.


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## MazterCBlazter

.


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## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Amen, Brother BigDL. Hopefully the "tax and spend" folks like Macfury will stop seeing these cuts as "sins", and rather see them as needed cuts to sustain our economy. Imagine, calling expenditures to build bigger and more secure prisons a sin???  He, along with the other "pie in the sky we deserve a social safety net" crowd will soon realize that there is "no free lunch", and survival of the fittest is the order of the day ............... at least for the next four years.
> 
> Just think, political stability and economic growth and prosperity for the next 4 1/2 years ............ :love2::love2::love2::love2:
> 
> Gotta love Our Glorious Leader.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Right On! Dr.G. It's about time someone took on the Nannies of this country. 

I glad you pointed out that Our Glorious Leader is focusing his spending on convicts and if some money falls off the table into the hands of the Private Sector praise be onto the Entrepreneur, so be it.

Money to feed Nanny's cat is such a waste. Cut em back till they really scream then give em enough to shut them up should be about right.


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## groovetube

MannyP Design said:


> No way of knowing without looking at the books… but it's a start. The funny thing about balancing budgets is that it's usually the culmination of many smaller things that help bring about one big change.
> 
> What the government needs to learn is that when you control the small things, you won't need to rely on, for example, a big solution (stealing billions from your employees) to balance the books.


that sounds a little vague to me. I doubt cost savings at the department level is going to equal the billions and billions needed at all.

Something(s) far more more substantial is going to have to be cut.


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## BigDL

MannyP Design said:


> No way of knowing without looking at the books… but it's a start. The funny thing about balancing budgets is that it's usually the culmination of many smaller things that help bring about one big change.
> 
> What the government needs to learn is that when you control the small things, you won't need to rely on, for example, a big solution (stealing billions from your employees) to balance the books.


Right On MannyP the mighty St. Lawrence or St. John rivers started off as drips of water off of leaves.


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## i-rui

ertman said:


> Yes, this happen everywhere including in business. The problem is how do you deal with it. Much like in the private sector this problem may always exist. This is because strategies created to deal with this has been less than 100% effective, as other problems crop up.
> 
> Indiscriminate slashing of budgets and employees are ineffective at dealing with the underlying issues. Such as the problem mentioned above, or over staffing as they hurt departments being ran efficiently or currently understaffed.


i agree. departments (in the private and public sector) look to spend whatever is left in their budget each year because they know if they don't then their budget will get slashed in the following year when they may actually need that money. a better system would be to reward departments who come in under budget, or at the very least not punish them for it by slashing their budget.

the idea that you can just indiscriminately cut 5-10% across the board and not see a drop in service is naive. i'm not saying there's no fat to be trimmed, but it's not as easy as saying "slash & burn!".


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## MannyP Design

groovetube said:


> that sounds a little vague to me. I doubt cost savings at the department level is going to equal the billions and billions needed at all.
> 
> Something(s) far more more substantial is going to have to be cut.


Of course it's vague… I'm neither inclined, nor knowledgable enough to go into the minutia. It's not my job, nor my responsibility. I make sure I pay my bills on time and have enough money to live.

Look, the mindset has to change. If you don't fix the problems that led you to where you are in the first place, you'll just go in circles.


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## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Right On! Dr.G. It's about time someone took on the Nannies of this country.
> 
> I glad you pointed out that Our Glorious Leader is focusing his spending on convicts and if some money falls off the table into the hands of the Private Sector praise be onto the Entrepreneur, so be it.
> 
> Money to feed Nanny's cat is such a waste. Cut em back till they really scream then give em enough to shut them up should be about right.


Well, some big bucks had better fall off of the table for the corporate tax cuts or there will be a day of reckoning comes Oct., 2015. 

As for Nanny and the cats, better she get rid of the cats and use the cat food as a source of protein for herself. We don't want her getting sick and clogging up the health clinics.

Better still, let the clinics do what they do best, and set up private health clinics/spas/retreats for those who are able to pay for quality service. They might even make a profit??? We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


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## ertman

MannyP Design said:


> What the government needs to learn is that when you control the small things, you won't need to rely on, for example, a big solution (stealing billions from your employees) to balance the books.


Actually, no. The elected officials are don't and shouldn't be micro-managing the public service, much like a board of directors doesn't manage the day to day operations of a firm. While they should try to implement strategies and procedures to cut waste, if our government spend all of its time focusing on the little things, it will miss the big things.



groovetube said:


> that sounds a little vague to me. I doubt cost savings at the department level is going to equal the billions and billions needed at all.
> 
> Something(s) far more more substantial is going to have to be cut.


Yes, but increasing efficiencies of government couldn't be bad idea, i just wouldn't trust MP's to watch for inefficiencies.



i-rui said:


> i agree. departments (in the private and public sector) look to spend whatever is left in their budget each year because they know if they don't then their budget will get slashed in the following year when they may actually need that money. a better system would be to reward departments who come in under budget, or at the very least non punish them for it by slashing their budget.
> 
> the idea that you can just indiscriminately cut 5-10% across the board and not see a drop in service is naive. i'm not saying there's no fat to be trimmed, but it's not as easy as saying "slash & burn!".


Yep, this is what I was talking about. Fat can be trimmed, but you don't need to use a machete to do it. With this said, i do think that there needs to be an ongoing restructuring of the departments to reduce some of the waste, and you don't even have to screw over the public service employees to do it either.

The only problem with the reward system is that you will have some managers over inflating their budget requests to get a reward. And if they scrimped and saved they may not get the same budget again next year.


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## MacDoc

So were is the smaller government?
Where is the reform movement.....



> Youngest MP just one victory away from a sweet pension
> NDP candidate Pierre-Luc Dusseault is shown in an NDP handout photo. Dusseault, a 19-year-old student of applied politics at the Universite de Sherbrooke, now becomes the youngest member of Parliament in Canadian history, according to the House of Commons website.
> 
> NDP candidate Pierre-Luc Dusseault is shown in an NDP handout photo. Dusseault, a 19-year-old student of applied politics at the Universite de Sherbrooke, now becomes the youngest member of Parliament in Canadian history, according to the House of Commons website.
> THE CANADIAN PRESS
> 
> By Kenyon Wallace | 9 minutes ago
> 
> He’s not even finished university yet, but he’s already on track to retire head and shoulders above most Canadians.
> 
> At 19, Pierre-Luc Dusseault became Canada’s youngest ever MP this week when he was elected as a member of the New Democratic Party in the riding of Sherbrooke.
> 
> Now, in addition to his $157,731 annual salary, he’ll qualify for a pension of nearly $30,000 a year if he remains in Parliament for just six years.
> 
> That means Dusseault and his fellow rookies — many of the NDP’s newly elected MPs are under 30 — only have to win one more election before their pensions are virtually guaranteed.
> 
> And while they won’t be able to start collecting their pensions until age 55, they’ll be better off than most of the people they represent.
> 
> Only about 30 per cent of Canadians have employer-sponsored pensions, and only some of those are defined-benefit plans. According to Service Canada, the average annual pension administered by the Canadian Pension Plan is just over $6,000.


Tommy was correct.....same cats .....different stripes....
6 yr job $30k pension for life.....can I have one please.... 

more
Youngest MP just one victory away from a sweet pension - Moneyville.ca

C'mon Harper - no excuses now - let's see cuts in pay since you have the nation deep in hole .....deficit cutting starts where the buck stops.


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## ertman

MacDoc said:


> So were is the smaller government?
> Where is the reform movement.....
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy was correct.....same cats .....different stripes....
> 6 yr job $30k pension for life.....can I have one please....
> 
> more
> Youngest MP just one victory away from a sweet pension - Moneyville.ca
> 
> C'mon Harper - no excuses now - let's see cuts in pay since you have the nation deep in hole .....deficit cutting starts where the buck stops.



The quote you supplied is kind of Age-ist don't you think. What difference does it make whether he is 19 or 50? If he is doing the same job, probably back-benching, should he not get compensated the same as anyone else? 

On a side note, putting down elected representative of parliament may not necessarily be a way to win over future employers, not to mention many other reasons for the level of compensation. It can't be expected that they would do it for free either? The problem I have is the rate at which pay increases are dolled out, it should be pegged to inflation.


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## Macfury

It's only been a day MacDoc. When you come back from your new home in Australia after a few months, you won't recognize the place.


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## groovetube

MannyP Design said:


> Of course it's vague… I'm neither inclined, nor knowledgable enough to go into the minutia. It's not my job, nor my responsibility. I make sure I pay my bills on time and have enough money to live.
> 
> Look, the mindset has to change. If you don't fix the problems that led you to where you are in the first place, you'll just go in circles.


I don't disagree with you.


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## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's only been a day MacDoc. When you come back from your new home in Australia after a few months, you won't recognize the place.


Haven't you heard? Harper has promised not to make any radical changes.


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## GratuitousApplesauce

ehMax said:


> ^ Picture I took on a nice trip to Ottawa this past winter.


Sooooo close ehMax. All you needed to do was tuck in that thumb, angle your hand up a couple of inches, move your elbow back a few inches and then forcefully drive that fist forward -- and you would have been my hero! beejacon


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## GratuitousApplesauce

groovetube said:


> Haven't you heard? Harper has promised not to make any radical changes.


Radical is relative. He just needs to balance things a touch by eliminating some of the radical programs enacted by previous socialist governments -- like universal health care.


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## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Radical is relative. He just needs to balance things a touch by eliminating some of the radical programs enacted by previous socialist governments -- like universal health care.


right. That should easily ensure his re-election.


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## GratuitousApplesauce

groovetube said:


> right. That should easily ensure his re-election.


Oh I fully believe Harper won't go after health care. At least not directly. Even with a majority, it's too politically dangerous. 

What he will do is what Chretien and Martin did in the 90s and just amp that up. The key is leaving room for the provinces to cut their health budgets and not go after them with the Canada Health Act when they experiment with various two tier solutions. Death by a thousand cuts so to speak. But he'll be able to say that the erosion of universality wasn't his doing.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Oh I fully believe Harper won't go after health care. At least not directly. Even with a majority, it's too politically dangerous.
> 
> What he will do is what Chretien and Martin did in the 90s and just amp that up. The key is leaving room for the provinces to cut their health budgets and not go after them with the Canada Health Act when they experiment with various two tier solutions. Death by a thousand cuts so to speak. But he'll be able to say that the erosion of universality wasn't his doing.


Sounds like a reasonable approach.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Oh I fully believe Harper won't go after health care. At least not directly. Even with a majority, it's too politically dangerous.
> 
> What he will do is what Chretien and Martin did in the 90s and just amp that up. The key is leaving room for the provinces to cut their health budgets and not go after them with the Canada Health Act when they experiment with various two tier solutions. Death by a thousand cuts so to speak. But he'll be able to say that the erosion of universality wasn't his doing.


this was sort of what I was thinking when Flaherty was going across the country selling the provinces on his HST deal. More revenue at the provincial level, = look we're cutting taxes at the federal level!


----------



## Vandave

groovetube said:


> right. That should easily ensure his re-election.


Assuming the economy does well and Harper keeps things on track, I think his hopes for re-election look quite strong at this point. But, that's only a day in.

A few macrotrends in the Conservatives favour:

- Quebec - With only a small number of seats in Quebec, the Conservatives have little to lose by this fickle electorate.
- Atlantic Canada - The Conservatives did well here and voters in the Atlantic tend to be quite reliable
- Census Update of Seats - BC and Alberta will receive a bunch of new ridings in the next election, which are likely to mostly go Conservative.
- Liberal Party implosion - The Liberals can't rebuilt their party by the next election. They are broke and finances are not likely to improve. The Liberals are best to stick with the existing seats and build outwards and not focus on the whole country.
- Green Party - With a seat in Parliament, the Green Party will be far more visible next election. I think their support base will go up a few points, which mostly drains votes from NDP and Liberals. 
- Loyal Supporters - The Conservatives have scored some very consistent numbers for the last 3 to 4 elections and their support base stands behind Harper. I think that's unlikely to change.

At this point in time, I think Harper is in a really good position.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Sounds like a reasonable approach.


As a committed Straussian, the "noble lie" is central to Harper's methodology.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Vandave said:


> Assuming the economy does well and Harper keeps things on track, I think his hopes for re-election look quite strong at this point. But, that's only a day in.
> 
> A few macrotrends in the Conservatives favour:
> 
> - Quebec - With only a small number of seats in Quebec, the Conservatives have little to lose by this fickle electorate.
> - Atlantic Canada - The Conservatives did well here and voters in the Atlantic tend to be quite reliable
> - Census Update of Seats - BC and Alberta will receive a bunch of new ridings in the next election, which are likely to mostly go Conservative.
> - Liberal Party implosion - The Liberals can't rebuilt their party by the next election. They are broke and finances are not likely to improve. The Liberals are best to stick with the existing seats and build outwards and not focus on the whole country.
> - Green Party - With a seat in Parliament, the Green Party will be far more visible next election. I think their support base will go up a few points, which mostly drains votes from NDP and Liberals.
> - Loyal Supporters - The Conservatives have scored some very consistent numbers for the last 3 to 4 elections and their support base stands behind Harper. I think that's unlikely to change.
> 
> At this point in time, I think Harper is in a really good position.


Way too early to even speculate on 2015, .... but here goes.

- Harper's vote total only went up by a point and half this election, but because of vote splitting, primarily in Ontario, he was able to garner 24 more seats out of that tiny increase. If Layton does a good job in the next four years it's quite possible that vote splitting will not be as big a factor next time out. If the Liberals don't resurrect themselves (and that will be difficult for them) and even 10% of the 60% who didn't vote for the Cons decides to back the non-Con frontrunner, the NDP will be the first past the post beneficiary. Harper better start early with the character assassination TV ads.

- There has been no government leader in history who has not eventually worn out their welcome with the public. In 2015 Harper will have been PM for an awfully long time. Even if he manages to get through the next 4 years without power-mongers and hacks within his government succumbing to greed and causing scandal, I suspect his brand will be looking more than a little shopworn by that time.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i agree. departments (in the private and public sector) look to spend whatever is left in their budget each year because they know if they don't then their budget will get slashed in the following year when they may actually need that money. a better system would be to reward departments who come in under budget, or at the very least not punish them for it by slashing their budget.
> 
> the idea that you can just indiscriminately cut 5-10% across the board and not see a drop in service is naive. i'm not saying there's no fat to be trimmed, but i*t's not as easy as saying "slash & burn!*".


The Libs under Chretien took this approach... oh how soon we forget.....


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Sooooo close ehMax. All you needed to do was tuck in that thumb, angle your hand up a couple of inches, move your elbow back a few inches and then forcefully drive that fist forward -- and you would have been my hero! beejacon


I had a chance several years ago to kill Gilles Duceppe and get away with it.

One day oh, in about 1999 or so I was standing on the corner of Bank and Wellington St. in Ottawa waiting for the light to change and standing to the left of me was Gilles Duceppe.... 

I am an ARDENT federalist and have lived almost my entire life in Quebec. So here I was presented with an opportunity. There was a bus coming and he was so close to me I could bend over to tie my shoe and "accidentally" push him into the oncoming bus. I admit it... the thought crossed my mind.... Obviously I didn't.....

It seems that we all have dark thoughts on occasion about our elected representatives.

Virtue is* not* having no bad thoughts... Virtue is having bad thoughts and not carrying them out. If you were in ehMax's shoes would you have been virtuous? If so then why make such a post other than to be provocative?

It isn't funny as far as I am concerned.... but I see this is the direction this thread is going to continue to take.


----------



## Dr.G.

An interesting story, screature. Still, PM Harper is no Hitler, Stalin, et al. He is our prime minister, and whether you voted for him or not, he is still our PM for 4 1/2 more years. If you want to live in Canada, you have him as our PM, like it or not. That is why two or the responsibilities of Canadian citizenship are voting, and being active to preserve and promote the institutions we have here in Canada, along with helping maintain and foster our multicultural heritage, and to work to preserve and protect the natural environment of Canada.


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Assuming the economy does well and Harper keeps things on track, I think his hopes for re-election look quite strong at this point. But, that's only a day in.
> 
> A few macrotrends in the Conservatives favour:
> 
> - Atlantic Canada - The Conservatives did well here and voters in the Atlantic tend to be quite reliable.


I don't know where you acquired this idea but if the rest of the analysis is as factual then the micro trends have little validity for me.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> I had a chance several years ago to kill Gilles Duceppe and get away with it.
> 
> One day oh, in about 1999 or so I was standing on the corner of Bank and Wellington St. in Ottawa waiting for the light to change and standing to the left of me was Gilles Duceppe....
> 
> I am an ARDENT federalist and have lived almost my entire life in Quebec. So here I was presented with an opportunity. There was a bus coming and he was so close to me I could bend over to tie my shoe and "accidentally" push him into the oncoming bus. I admit it... the thought crossed my mind.... Obviously I didn't.....
> 
> It seems that we all have dark thoughts on occasion about our elected representatives.
> 
> Virtue is* not* having no bad thoughts... Virtue is having bad thoughts and not carrying them out. If you were in ehMax's shoes would you have been virtuous? If so then why make such a post other than to be provocative?
> 
> It isn't funny as far as I am concerned.... but I see this is the direction this thread is going to continue to take.


Chill, screature, chill. I was joking.

Even I, GratuitousApplesauce, raging commie terrorist, wouldn't really punch any politicians, even Conservative ones, who most clearly deserve it. (Joking)

I'm glad you didn't act on your murderous impulse. You'd be in prison with time on your hands and would be posting on ehMac even more than you do currently. (Joking again.)


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Chill, screature, chill. I was joking.
> 
> Even I, GratuitousApplesauce, raging commie terrorist, wouldn't really punch any politicians, even Conservative ones, who most clearly deserve it. (Joking)
> 
> I'm glad you didn't act on your murderous impulse. You'd be in prison with time on your hands and would be posting on ehMac even more than you do currently. (Joking again.)


Just saying it wasn't in the least bit funny... joking or not... As I knew you were, but I wanted to point out the seriousness of your implications... It wasn't in the least bit funny to many, many, Canadians. I don't need to chill you need to be more respectful and not continue the politics of division that we have seen for years now....

Change begins at home... how about you?


----------



## ehMax

Some really sad news from my riding's MP. Really sad. 

My riding of Kitchener-Conestoga re-elected Conservative MP Harold Albrecht. It had just been confirmed that he was going to get re-elected so he and his wife Betty were one the way to the celebration when she suddenly collapsed and had to be taken to hospital. 

This morning the Kitchener paper reported that she was in *critical condition.* 










I just heard news that Betty has passed away. 

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Albrecht's.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## ehMax

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Sooooo close ehMax. All you needed to do was tuck in that thumb, angle your hand up a couple of inches, move your elbow back a few inches and then forcefully drive that fist forward -- and you would have been my hero! beejacon


GA, ok.. when CSIS calls me, I'll forward them your contact info.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> you need to be more respectful and not continue the politics of division that we have seen for years now....


Why exactly does he have to this screature?

Is it because Harper has his majority now and dissenters won't be tolerated? Sounds a bit like that.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

ehMax said:


> GA, ok.. when CSIS calls me, I'll forward them your contact info.


They'll never catch me. I move between several luxury safe houses in the Green/Communist Republic of the Gulf Islands.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Just saying it wasn't in the least bit funny... joking or not... As I knew you were, but I wanted to point out the seriousness of your implications... It wasn't in the least bit funny to many, many, Canadians. I don't need to chill you need to be more respectful and not continue the politics of division that we have seen for years now....
> 
> Change begins at home... how about you?


I guess it's a fine line what each of us finds funny. No offence was intended. I don't take back my joke(s).


----------



## Max

GA, I'm with you. I think chillaxation would be a real tonic about now.


----------



## screature

ehMax said:


> Some really sad news from my riding's MP. Really sad.
> 
> My riding of Kitchener-Conestoga re-elected Conservative MP Harold Albrecht. It had just been confirmed that he was going to get re-elected so he and his wife Betty were one the way to the celebration when she suddenly collapsed and had to be taken to hospital.
> 
> This morning the Kitchener paper reported that she was in *critical condition.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just heard news that Betty has passed away.
> 
> My thoughts and prayers go out to the Albrecht's.



Yes I heard this today on the Hill today as well... very sad indeed.... the word I heard was that it was a brain aneurysm.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Why exactly does he have to this screature?
> 
> Is it because Harper has his majority now and dissenters won't be tolerated? Sounds a bit like that.


Yeah that's it exactly....  If you can't figure it out for yourself and want to continue to exist in the quagmire then fine stay stuck there....


----------



## screature

Max said:


> GA, I'm with you. I think chillaxation would be a real tonic about now.


So how about chillaxin by not suggesting that the PM be punched in the face... I guess we all have our differing view points on how to chillax.... here's a nice emoticon just for you Max....


----------



## BigDL

ehMax said:


> Some really sad news from my riding's MP. Really sad.
> 
> My riding of Kitchener-Conestoga re-elected Conservative MP Harold Albrecht. It had just been confirmed that he was going to get re-elected so he and his wife Betty were one the way to the celebration when she suddenly collapsed and had to be taken to hospital.
> 
> This morning the Kitchener paper reported that she was in *critical condition.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just heard news that Betty has passed away.
> 
> My thoughts and prayers go out to the Albrecht's.


This is sad news. One doesn't know when good health or life ends. It is always sobering when news like this is brought to our attention. It is good to plan for the future however we should seize the day as well and live everyone to the fullest.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Max said:


> GA, I'm with you. I think chillaxation would be a real tonic about now.


Here ya go ...


----------



## Max

screature said:


> So how about chillaxin by not suggesting that the PM be punched in the face... I guess we all have our differing view points on how to chillax.... here's a nice emoticon just for you Max....


Wow, knock me down with a feather, will ya.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Here ya go ...


ha ha that's a great graphic. Have to save that one.

Now chillax y'all.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Yeah that's it exactly....  If you can't figure it out for yourself and want to continue to exist in the quagmire then fine stay stuck there....


Here's one for you: :lmao:

If you want quagmire, check out those attack ads...

I, like many others, don't see the majority as a return to decency. It's simply that the bully finally wore us down and got his own way.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Here's one for you: :lmao:
> 
> If you want quagmire, check out those attack ads...
> 
> I, like many others, don't see the majority as a return to decency. It's simply that the bully finally wore us down and got his own way.


I was referring to the quagmire here my friend. But to your point, people were not bullied to vote one way or the other, they didn't have to vote at all even.


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> Here's one for you: :lmao:
> 
> If you want quagmire, check out those attack ads...
> 
> I, like many others, don't see the majority as a return to decency. It's simply that the bully finally wore us down and got his own way.


Canadians have finally given Harper the "Hammer."

Trouble is when your only tool is a hammer, suddenly every job starts to look like a nail. May you not be "nailed" during the next for years.


----------



## BigDL

An interesting article in the Atlantic for the interested folks in the Excited States.



Atlantic said:


> America's northern neighbor, longtime poster country for moderation, has just hollowed out its political center and significantly empowered its Conservative prime minister





Atlantic said:


> The outcome has left Canadian politics with a right-wing party firmly in control, an invigorated left-wing party savoring historic gains, and a vanishing center in demoralized disarray. Quite a feat for a country that prides itself on moderation and upholding a social democratic example for its neighbors to the south.





Atlantic said:


> Ah, but voters sometimes surprise, as Quebeckers did Monday when they turfed the separatist Bloc Quebecois and flocked instead to the left-wing New Democratic Party (NDP). When the election was called six weeks ago, the NDP held only one of Quebec's 75 seats in the federal parliament. Now it holds 58 from that province alone, another 44 from the rest of Canada.



Big Election Up North, Eh? Canada Hits the Polls - International - The Atlantic


----------



## i-rui

well, it didn't take very long for Harper to start reneging on his promises....

Tories back off campaign pledge to show a surplus by 2014-15 - The Globe and Mail

all of those empty promises with the condition of a balanced budget will have to wait....and wait...and wait...

I wonder if people will still be gullible enough to vote for them in the next election when they make the same promises again?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> well, it didn't take very long for Harper to start reneging on his promises....
> 
> Tories back off campaign pledge to show a surplus by 2014-15 - The Globe and Mail
> 
> all of those empty promises with the condition of a balanced budget will have to wait....and wait...and wait...
> 
> I wonder if people will still be gullible enough to vote for them in the next election when they make the same promises again?


But:




> “We will do the strategic and operating review and we will book [those savings] once the review is done. That will get us to balance a year earlier, but is not part of the upcoming budget,” Chisholm Pothier, Mr. Flaherty’s spokesperson, said on Wednesday.


----------



## groovetube

that's a huge (NOT) surprise.

This is a government used to spending and handing out to the rich. Too bad people bought this wait til we balance the budget and we'll get around to you nonsense.


----------



## Vandave

groovetube said:


> that's a huge (NOT) surprise.
> 
> This is a government used to spending and handing out to the rich. Too bad people bought this wait til we balance the budget and we'll get around to you nonsense.


:baby::baby::baby:


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> But:


But :



> When asked directly during an appearance on CTV’s Power Play whether he was committing to eliminating the deficit one year earlier, *Mr. Flaherty responded that he was not.*


----------



## groovetube

Vandave said:


> :baby::baby::baby:


that response says it all. A conservative supporter, telling another to be a man about it, c'mon, take the government crap. Bend over, you'll like it.

Sorry Vandave, you go ahead.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> But :


this is the same flaherty that left a deficit here in Ontario after cutting the crap out of everything and promising to leave a balanced budget.

People laugh that Ontario would warm to Bob Rae. Well they did to the liars in Harris's regime.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> well, it didn't take very long for Harper to start reneging on his promises....
> 
> Tories back off campaign pledge to show a surplus by 2014-15 - The Globe and Mail
> 
> all of those empty promises with the condition of a balanced budget will have to wait....and wait...and wait...
> 
> I wonder if people will still be gullible enough to vote for them in the next election when they make the same promises again?


What?!?! Well, you can't believe what is printed in the Globe and Mail, since they did not even support PM Harper in this election ................... wait ........ they did support him .............. 

Well, what do you think of that????


----------



## i-rui

Dr.G. said:


> What?!?! Well, you can't believe what is printed in the Globe and Mail, since they did not even support PM Harper in this election ................... wait ........ they did support him ..............
> 
> Well, what do you think of that????


I actually came across this article yesterday :

J-Source.ca -- The Canadian Journalism Project



> This is not a free press. This is bad for democracy. The fact that a shackled press now stands to an extraordinary degree singing their praises for Dear Leader S. Harper from the same hymn sheet should give us pause for thought and reflection.


this is the direct problem of having big corporations control the press.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald[/URL])


I would be pretty disappointed if Harper didn't shove some conservative ideas down people's throats with the opportunity he has now.


----------



## CubaMark

*Seems some of Harper's appointed Senators have an issue with arranging their own demise.... big surprise!*

*Conservative senators balking at Senate reform agenda*



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper has a majority in the Senate but he may not have the numbers to push through the reforms he planned for the Red Chamber,





> Harper appointed more than 30 Conservative senators to the upper house in the last 2 1/2 years — precisely, he said, so he could pass his Senate reform agenda. But, during that time, some senators have publicly and privately suggested they've changed their minds and no longer support Harper's plan to establish provincial senate elections and impose eight-year term limits.


(Montreal Gazette)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Seems some of Harper's appointed Senators have an issue with arranging their own demise.... big surprise!*
> 
> *Conservative senators balking at Senate reform agenda*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Montreal Gazette)


Any position that pays you for just showing up, sort of an attendance bonus, can't be something that is given up easily. The rest of us shall just have to work a bit harder to earn a bit more to pay a bit more taxes to pay for these Senators and their special bonus.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> I would be pretty disappointed if Harper didn't shove some conservative ideas down people's throats with the opportunity he has now.


And which conservative ideas would you like shoved up our posteriors?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> And which conservative ideas would you like shoved up our ass?


Not cool language jimbo...


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Not cool language jimbo...


You're right screature the news of the clampdown on the Canadian modern art expert at the national gallery and the scientists specializing in auto emissions got the best of me. Hence I amended my post. So sorry.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> You're right screature the news of the clampdown on the Canadian modern art expert at the national gallery and the scientists specializing in auto emissions got the best of me. Hence I amended my post. So sorry.


What do these cutbacks have to do with the general public... the National Gallery has been suffering from low attendance for years and only those that visit Ottawa could even be remotely affected... 

Auto emissions... I am sure there are non-governmental organizations that could tell us exactly what the high paid public servants (scientists) could. Did you really think that faced with a public deficit there would be be no public sector job losses?

Chretien slashed transfers to the provinces and health care delivery when the Libs were faced with debt and deficit... where would you rather the fat be cut? Oh I have an idea National Defence, something that we *all* benefit from.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> What do these cutbacks have to do with the general public... the National Gallery has been suffering from low attendance for years and only those that visit Ottawa could even be remotely affected...
> 
> Auto emissions... I am sure there are non-governmental organizations that could tell us exactly what the high paid public servants (scientists) could. Did you really think that faced with a public deficit there would be be no public sector job losses?
> 
> Chretien slashed transfers to the provinces and health care delivery when the Libs were faced with debt and deficit... where would you rather the fat be cut? Oh I have an idea National Defence, something that we *all* benefit from.


Sorry but in my opinion this is the start of the "culture wars" I alluded to in other posts during the election.

Simply put for the National Gallery of Canada to cut its expert in Modern Canadian art says more than I can possibly express in a post. Secondly, given climate disruption is it wise that the ruling party axe experts in carbon emissions? Give me and the country a brake please.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## CubaMark

Here's the full text of today's Speech from the Throne.

The opposition to Harper's agenda began quickly - a Page working in Parliament stood up during the speech with a "Stop Harper" sign...



...and she came prepared, issuing a press release immediately after being escorted from the building.

One wonders what would have happened had something like this happened during one of the U.S. Presidents' speeches in front of Congress....


----------



## i-rui

^^ good for her!


----------



## Vandave

i-rui said:


> ^^ good for her!


Time for reeducation camp for both of you.


----------



## Dr.G.

Vandave said:


> Time for reeducation camp for both of you.


Right on, Vandave. Now that The Harper Government of Canada has a majority, any disagreement with any policy should be stopped ASAP. For repeat offenders from these re-education camps, there should be gulags spread throughout Canada.

Long live Big Brother!!!


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Here's the full text of today's Speech from the Throne.
> 
> The opposition to Harper's agenda began quickly - a Page working in Parliament stood up during the speech with a "Stop Harper" sign...
> 
> 
> 
> ...and she came prepared, issuing a press release immediately after being escorted from the building.
> 
> One wonders what would have happened had something like this happened during one of the U.S. Presidents' speeches in front of Congress....


A press release later named her as Brigette Marcelle and said she was protesting the government's decision to "spend billions on fighter jets, military bases and corporate tax cuts, while cutting social programs and destroying the climate."

What the heck does she want to do with these billions?????? Spend it on the poor? Housing for the homeless? Better medical care for all seniors? Food for those who hunger?

Where are her priorities????????????


----------



## groovetube

yeah. She just "doesn't get it".


----------



## Macfury

Glad they booted that sad sack out of there. Send her home.


----------



## groovetube

I love how it seems not have occurred to the local geniuses here that she likely was quite aware that she'd lose her job.


----------



## i-rui

I love how conservatives are getting in a huff about this disrespectful act during the throne speech, yet they were perfectly fine with their party being held in contempt of Parliament.


----------



## Macfury

The page program was an honoured non-political institution at the House of Parliament. The girl disgraced the program and will probably be responsible for reducing the trust once placed in the students so-honoured. What an attention-grabbing disgrace.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Glad they booted that sad sack out of there. Send her home.


So you again agree with free expression of the individual?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So you again agree with free expression of the individual?


In your own free time. Not when you are honour-bound to uphold the dignity of the program.


----------



## screature

She dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*.

Those that think she was expressing her right to free speech couldn't be more wrong. What she did was an abuse of her position and a clear act of megalomania and grabbing her 15 minutes of fame/infamy. Full stop.

I am shocked quite frankly that some would try and defend her actions based on nothing else other than their own obvious political biases. Here we have a call from the opposition for greater decorum and respect for and in Parliament and yet those same people laud her actions. For shame.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Here's the full text of today's Speech from the Throne.
> 
> The opposition to Harper's agenda began quickly - a Page working in Parliament stood up during the speech with a "Stop Harper" sign...
> 
> ...and she came prepared, issuing a press release immediately after being escorted from the building.
> 
> One wonders what would have happened had something like this happened during one of the U.S. Presidents' speeches in front of Congress....


So in fact not knowing the content of the Speech she was prepared to grab her 15 minutes of infamy regardless of the content of the speech and you support and laud megalomaniacal people like this???

What the F does this have to do with the US... Gawd I get so tired of the constant US references... who gives a rats ass. Talk about fixations.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Right on, Vandave. Now that The Harper Government of Canada has a majority, any disagreement with any policy should be stopped ASAP. For repeat offenders from these re-education camps, there should be gulags spread throughout Canada.
> 
> Long live Big Brother!!!


Are you really trying to justify her actions Dr. G.?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> ^^ good for her!


Yeah not surprising that is the reaction coming form you i-rui... not surprising at all. It was disgraceful and infantile.... I could say more but I am trying to keep this civil.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> A press release later named her as Brigette Marcelle and said she was protesting the government's decision to "spend billions on fighter jets, military bases and corporate tax cuts, while cutting social programs and destroying the climate."
> 
> What the heck does she want to do with these billions?????? Spend it on the poor? Housing for the homeless? Better medical care for all seniors? Food for those who hunger?
> 
> Where are her priorities????????????


It seems in fact you are defending her actions Dr. G. 

Yes one child has the right from her paid privileged position to try and thwart and demean the democratic process of this country. Quite frankly I am shocked at your attitude. It seems you have little respect for Parliament if you endorse or are willing to excuse such behaviour.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> It seems in fact you are defending her actions Dr. G.
> 
> Yes one child has the right from her paid privileged position to try and thwart and demean the democratic process of this country. Quite frankly I am shocked at your attitude. It seems you have little respect for Parliament if you endorse or are willing to excuse such behaviour.


Defender her actions??? No way. She needs to understand the parliamentary procedures, and respect for this system. Only MPs can yell and scream at each other, but not even an MP can hold up a sign.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> In your own free time. Not when you are honour-bound to uphold the dignity of the program.


The last day on the job is the freest and most liberating day of all. I should think that notion would be embraced by some even if you didn't like her message.



screature said:


> She dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*.
> 
> Those that think she was expressing her right to free speech couldn't be more wrong. What she did was an abuse of her position and a clear act of megalomania and grabbing her 15 minutes of fame/infamy. Full stop.
> 
> I am shocked quite frankly that some would try and defend her actions based on nothing else other than their own obvious political biases. Here we have a call from the opposition for greater decorum and respect for and in Parliament and yet those same people laud her actions. For shame.


Every Canadian should be allowed in the House of the People to peacefully and quietly protest the Government of the day. We too easily allow the politicians off the hook.



screature said:


> So in fact not knowing the content of the Speech she was prepared to grab her 15 minutes of infamy regardless of the content of the speech and you support and laud megalomaniacal people like this???
> 
> What the F does this have to do with the US... Gawd I get so tired of the constant US references... who gives a rats ass. Talk about fixations.





screature said:


> Are you really trying to justify her actions Dr. G.?





screature said:


> Yeah not surprising that is the reaction coming form you i-rui... not surprising at all. It was disgraceful and infantile.... I could say more but I am trying to keep this civil.





screature said:


> It seems in fact you are defending her actions Dr. G.
> 
> Yes one child has the right from her paid privileged position to try and thwart and demean the democratic process of this country. Quite frankly I am shocked at your attitude. It seems you have little respect for Parliament if you endorse or are willing to excuse such behaviour.


Not only do I believe her actions were right and proper, I applaud her bravery to express her opinion not just on a safe internet forum like this but in a time and place when a shadow of her future; dismissal, was immanent. It doesn't demean democracy it enhances our democracy.



Dr.G. said:


> Defender her actions??? No way. She needs to understand the parliamentary procedures, and respect for this system. Only MPs can yell and scream at each other, but not even an MP can hold up a sign.


Yes you are correct Dr.G. only those who are given permission may speak. Only those anointed and appointed by our Glorious Leader may practice party political activities while on the payroll of the senate.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> The last day on the job is the freest and most liberating day of all. I should think that notion would be embraced by some even if you didn't like her message.
> 
> 
> 
> Every Canadian should be allowed in the House of the People to peacefully and quietly protest the Government of the day. We too easily allow the politicians off the hook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only do I believe her actions were right and proper, I applaud her bravery to express her opinion not just on a safe internet forum like this but in a time and place when a shadow of her future; dismissal, was immanent. It doesn't demean democracy it enhances our democracy.
> 
> Yes you are correct Dr.G. only those who are given permission may speak. Only those anointed and appointed by our Glorious Leader may practice party political activities while on the payroll of the senate.



BigDL, how on earth can you support this expression of hate speech??? Stop Harper??? She is asking for the next protest to be an overt act of stopping our elected Prime Minister. What next???? A cream pie in the face? A water balloon? This sort of free speech should be stopped and stopped ASAP. It can morph into a movement giving the average Canadian thoughts that even though was have a majority Conservative government, a non-Conservative thought might be allowed.

Have "fun" at Re-education Camp #101. Paix, mon ami. Bonne chance.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Yeah not surprising that is the reaction coming form you i-rui... not surprising at all. It was disgraceful and infantile.... I could say more but I am trying to keep this civil.





screature said:


> She dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*.
> 
> Those that think she was expressing her right to free speech couldn't be more wrong. What she did was an abuse of her position and a clear act of megalomania and grabbing her 15 minutes of fame/infamy. Full stop.
> 
> I am shocked quite frankly that some would try and defend her actions based on nothing else other than their own obvious political biases. Here we have a call from the opposition for greater decorum and respect for and in Parliament and yet those same people laud her actions. For shame.





i-rui said:


> I love how conservatives are getting in a huff about this disrespectful act during the throne speech, yet they were perfectly fine with their party being held in contempt of Parliament.


lol.

anyways, to expand on it. i have no problem with her getting fired. that is the price she has to pay for clearly stepping over the line regarding her position as an employee of the senate.

however, that doesn't diminish the bravery of her action. she knew she'd have to sacrifice her job (that she probably worked very hard to get) to express her disgust at Harper's policies going unchecked in our government.

It's really sad that some would criticize her for taking an honest stand on the floor of the senate, while they simultaneously defend conservatives who lie directly to parliament in the house.

Brigitte "Marcelle" DePape got fired for her transgression. Bev Oda got re-elected. Who *really* "dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*"??


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, how on earth can you support this expression of hate speech??? Stop Harper??? She is asking for the next protest to be an overt act of stopping our elected Prime Minister. What next???? A cream pie in the face? A water balloon? This sort of free speech should be stopped and stopped ASAP. It can morph into a movement giving the average Canadian thoughts that even though was have a majority Conservative government, a non-Conservative thought might be allowed.
> 
> Have "fun" at Re-education Camp #101. Paix, mon ami. Bonne chance.


 I should think the dossier fattens as we type. Beware, Gr.G. even admonishing the likes of myself could land you in the clink.

I shall be free, before they come for me.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I should think the dossier fattens as we type. Beware, Gr.G. even admonishing the likes of myself could land you in the clink.
> 
> I shall be free, before they come for me.


My thoughts are free, BigDL. Thus, they may imprison me, but if being in this sort of jail is the only place my body and beliefs may live together in peace, so be it. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> lol.
> 
> anyways, to expand on it. i have no problem with her getting fired. that is the price she has to pay for clearly stepping over the line regarding her position as an employee of the senate.
> 
> however, that doesn't diminish the bravery of her action. she knew she'd have to sacrifice her job (that she probably worked very hard to get) to express her disgust at Harper's policies going unchecked in our government.
> 
> It's really sad that some would criticize her for taking an honest stand on the floor of the senate, while they simultaneously defend conservatives who lie directly to parliament in the house.
> 
> Brigitte Marcelle DePape got fired for here transgression. Bev Oda got re-elected. Who *really* "dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*"??


Like(without that function)


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> My thoughts are free, BigDL. Thus, they may imprison me, but if being in this sort of jail is the only place my body and beliefs may live together in peace, so be it. Paix, mon ami.


Indeed!
"You can lock a mouse or a man but not an idea." Tommy Douglas

Your bravery to consort with the rabble even in your days of "enlightenment" and attempting to share that enlightenment and mentor the incorrigible is inspiring.


----------



## FeXL

I believe there is a time and place for everything.

This may have been the appropriate time for her, but I do not believe it was the appropriate place.

Jes' sayin'...


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Indeed!
> "You can lock a mouse or a man but not an idea." Tommy Douglas
> 
> Your bravery to consort with the rabble even in your days of "enlightenment" and attempting to share that enlightenment and mentor the incorrigible is inspiring.


"Two men looked out through prison bars -- one saw mud and the other saw stars." We shall all have to look up to see the stars of possibilities and not lose hope that a new day is dawning. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## jimbotelecom

She has spunk. And what class too...a black tie and even gloves. 

I hope she wasn't subjected to torture afterwards and that she receives a severance package and a letter of recommendation from Steve.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Defender her actions??? No way. She needs to understand the parliamentary procedures, and respect for this system. Only MPs can yell and scream at each other, but not even an MP can hold up a sign.





BigDL said:


> The last day on the job is the freest and most liberating day of all. I should think that notion would be embraced by some even if you didn't like her message.
> 
> Every Canadian should be allowed in the House of the People to peacefully and quietly protest the Government of the day. We too easily allow the politicians off the hook.
> 
> Not only do I believe her actions were right and proper, I applaud her bravery to express her opinion not just on a safe internet forum like this but in a time and place when a shadow of her future; dismissal, was immanent. It doesn't demean democracy it enhances our democracy.
> 
> Yes you are correct Dr.G. only those who are given permission may speak. Only those anointed and appointed by our Glorious Leader may practice party political activities while on the payroll of the senate.





Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, how on earth can you support this expression of hate speech??? Stop Harper??? She is asking for the next protest to be an overt act of stopping our elected Prime Minister. What next???? A cream pie in the face? A water balloon? This sort of free speech should be stopped and stopped ASAP. It can morph into a movement giving the average Canadian thoughts that even though was have a majority Conservative government, a non-Conservative thought might be allowed.
> 
> Have "fun" at Re-education Camp #101. Paix, mon ami. Bonne chance.





i-rui said:


> lol.
> 
> anyways, to expand on it. i have no problem with her getting fired. that is the price she has to pay for clearly stepping over the line regarding her position as an employee of the senate.
> 
> however, that doesn't diminish the bravery of her action. she knew she'd have to sacrifice her job (that she probably worked very hard to get) to express her disgust at Harper's policies going unchecked in our government.
> 
> It's really sad that some would criticize her for taking an honest stand on the floor of the senate, while they simultaneously defend conservatives who lie directly to parliament in the house.
> 
> Brigitte "Marcelle" DePape got fired for her transgression. Bev Oda got re-elected. Who *really* "dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*"??





BigDL said:


> I should think the dossier fattens as we type. Beware, Gr.G. even admonishing the likes of myself could land you in the clink.
> 
> I shall be free, before they come for me.





Dr.G. said:


> My thoughts are free, BigDL. Thus, they may imprison me, but if being in this sort of jail is the only place my body and beliefs may live together in peace, so be it. Paix, mon ami.





BigDL said:


> Like(without that function)





BigDL said:


> Indeed!
> "You can lock a mouse or a man but not an idea." Tommy Douglas
> 
> Your bravery to consort with the rabble even in your days of "enlightenment" and attempting to share that enlightenment and mentor the incorrigible is inspiring.





jimbotelecom said:


> She has spunk. And what class too...a black tie and even gloves.
> 
> I hope she wasn't subjected to torture afterwards and that she receives a severance package and a letter of recommendation from Steve.


What a sad day here on ehMac... 

Bravery, hardly, not even close. What would have been brave, if she believed so strongly in her positions, is to have run for office and actually took the time and energy to express her views in a manner where she actually had to support her positions with reason and elucidation where she would have the potential to effect change by engaging with those who disagree with her. She didn't. 

She was a coward who choose instead to engage in a cheap self aggrandizing stunt to draw attention to herself, to try and thwart and demean democracy just after the nation in a free and democratic election made their choice. She chose to elevate herself above that process and the voice of the people.

What shear and utter nonsense to try and equate her to a prisoner of political conscience, it belittles those who actually do stand up for their convictions in a manner that puts their lives in jeopardy and are imprisoned and killed for their beliefs.

You can't have it both ways, either you believe in Parliament and the democratic process or you don't. She chose to make a mockery of both and all you who support her actions are doing the same merely because you don't support Stephen Harper or the Conservatives from your partisan positions. It would matter not who or which political party she was "protesting" against, what she did was childish, undignified, disgraceful and wrong. There is a time and a place for everything and this was neither the time nor the place for her self aggrandizing stunt. 

For shame on her and those that support her actions as in any way being justified or right... it is a sad day indeed.


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> I believe there is a time and place for everything.
> 
> This may have been the appropriate time for her, but I do not believe it was the appropriate place.
> 
> Jes' sayin'...


I think it's fair to say it depends on what side of the 'fence' you sit. 

Though I hardly think taking the sort of action she did, whether you agree with her or not, is "cowardly", especially when you compare it to getting all hot and bothered anonymously over a keyboard.


----------



## Max

_Haiku for a saturday_

much hand-wringing here:
cries of shame, soiled, sour stances~
all cheap performance


----------



## groovetube

nice one


----------



## screature

Max said:


> _Haiku for a saturday_
> 
> much hand-wringing here:
> cries of shame, soiled, sour stances~
> all cheap performance


my words aren't cheap
my words do reap
from those that others
choose to sow


----------



## groovetube

uh. someone needs to explain what a haiku is.
lol.


----------



## mrjimmy

Max said:


> _Haiku for a saturday_
> 
> much hand-wringing here:
> cries of shame, soiled, sour stances~
> all cheap performance


Love it!


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> Brigitte "Marcelle" DePape got fired for her transgression. Bev Oda got re-elected. Who *really* "dishonoured herself and her position for which she was being *paid*"??


Where is that damn LIKE button?


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Where is that damn LIKE button?


I think this post says it well. Impolitical: What happens when august institutions are disrespected


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I think this post says it well. Impolitical: What happens when august institutions are disrespected


It's going to be an interesting 4 years GT. Lets hope none of the damage is permanent.


----------



## screature

LOL... Sour grapes is all you guys have for the next 4 years.... 

Enjoy.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> It's going to be an interesting 4 years GT. Lets hope none of the damage is permanent.


that's wishful thinking I think mrjimmy. It'll be an interesting 8 years though I believe.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> LOL... Sour grapes is all you guys have for the next 4 years....
> 
> Enjoy.


Someone put a little extra bitter in your coffee this morning?


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> that's wishful thinking I think mrjimmy. It'll be an interesting 8 years though I believe.


Hopefully people aren't that stupid.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Hopefully people aren't that stupid.


they sure were south of the border!


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Someone put a little extra bitter in your coffee this morning?


Yeah... waking up to people defending the actions of a punk assed kid....


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Yeah... waking up to people defending the actions of a punk assed kid....


Get used to it.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Get used to it.


Get used to punk assed kids or ehMac members posting drivel? 

Regrettably, I am already used to both. It doesn't mean I have to like either.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Get used to it.


ha ha ha.

must have been some pretty awful tasting grapes.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Yeah... waking up to people defending the actions of a punk assed kid....


You'll see any bit of drivel lauded for the next eight years as long as it's anti-conservative, screature. It's kind of funny, actually, watching the usual suspects impotently wailing, beating their chests, and gnashing their teeth. 

Anybody notice the "orange tsunami" in action? Neithere did I


----------



## groovetube

jeez is it noon already?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Indeed!
> "You can lock a mouse or a man but not an idea." Tommy Douglas


But you can chip away at the idea until it becomes meaningless-as we are doing with single-pay healthcare.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> that's wishful thinking I think mrjimmy. It'll be an interesting 8 years though I believe.


i don't think so. most canadians are politically ignorant, but not stupid. Lying & hiding the truth from people can only work for so long. eventually when the budget still isn't balanced and the bills for bombs, prisons and jets come in, people will wake up and see whats happening to our country.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It's kind of funny, actually, watching the usual suspects impotently wailing, beating their chests, and gnashing their teeth.


Highlight comment, copy and then paste into post written by left winger describing right winger's reaction to so called dissent.

Easily transferable and meaningless really.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i don't think so. most canadians are politically ignorant, but not stupid. Lying & hiding the truth from people can only work for so long. eventually when the budget still isn't balanced and the bills for bombs, prisons and jets come in people will wake up and see whats happening to our country.


Time will tell..... but then again in your postings you tend to be a bit of an alarmist...


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Highlight comment, copy and then paste into post written by left winger describing right winger's reaction to so called dissent.
> 
> Easily transferable and meaningless really.


Actually it isn't. It's most remarkable to see the difference.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Actually it isn't. It's most remarkable to see the difference.


Illustrate for me the difference please MF. It's a rainy Saturday and I'm in need of entertainment.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Illustrate for me the difference please MF. It's a rainy Saturday and I'm in need of entertainment.


I remained quite restrained during the entire run of the Chretien/Martin governments, even when it ran counter to my interests. You'd swear the world had imploded with a Conservative majority. I should probably by stock in a company that sells hair shirts.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I remained quite restrained during the entire run of the Chretien/Martin governments, even when it ran counter to my interests. You'd swear the world had imploded with a Conservative majority. I should probably by stock in a company that sells hair shirts.


Revisionist history?


----------



## Max

There is no past. There is only a fluid present, one which our man behind the mask can bend at will! There is no story to revise, so long as you can pretend that there's no fiction involved.


----------



## screature

Max said:


> *There is no past*. There is only a fluid present, one which our man behind the mask can bend at will! There is no story to revise, so long as you can pretend that there's no fiction involved.


I disagree. The past is what it was and what was depends on who you ask, there is only a fluid interpretation of it in the present.

All of existence, past/present/future is such....


----------



## Max

You say the past is what it was... but what _was_ it?

Therein lies the rub. How you explain the past says much about where you are in the here and now. More than ever, in our prolific, multifaceted mediaverse, the past is spin.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> You say the past is what it was... but what _was_ it?
> 
> Therein lies the rub. How you explain the past says much about where you are in the here and now. More than ever, in our prolific, multifaceted mediaverse, the past is spin.


i.e., History is written by the victors.


----------



## mrjimmy

More haiku please.


----------



## Max

ehmac: a fine place
where gale force opinions blow~
take sweet shelter, smile


----------



## mrjimmy

Okay, I take everything back. How can you not love this man! Gone are my feelings of being manipulated by cheap showbiz stunts. This man has a heart!

Harper takes to Facebook for help naming new kitty - thestar.com

I think they should call him Mouseolini!

ps. Thanks for the haiku Max.


----------



## groovetube

hah, one could have a little fun with that one.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> hah, one could have a little fun with that one.


Don't get catty now.


----------



## groovetube

yah I certainly wouldn't want to reep wut I sew.


----------



## i-rui

^^ have you ever seen such an awkwardly staged photo? even the poor kitten looks painfully uncomfortable & disappointed that he's being exploited by the hypocrite.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Pussy.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> i.e., History is written by the victors.


All too true, and the history books are rewritten by the victors. Paix, mon amie.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> What a sad day here on ehMac...
> 
> Bravery, hardly, not even close. What would have been brave, if she believed so strongly in her positions, is to have run for office and actually took the time and energy to express her views in a manner where she actually had to support her positions with reason and elucidation where she would have the potential to effect change by engaging with those who disagree with her. She didn't.
> 
> She was a coward who choose instead to engage in a cheap self aggrandizing stunt to draw attention to herself, to try and thwart and demean democracy just after the nation in a free and democratic election made their choice. She chose to elevate herself above that process and the voice of the people.
> 
> What shear and utter nonsense to try and equate her to a prisoner of political conscience, it belittles those who actually do stand up for their convictions in a manner that puts their lives in jeopardy and are imprisoned and killed for their beliefs.
> 
> You can't have it both ways, either you believe in Parliament and the democratic process or you don't. She chose to make a mockery of both and all you who support her actions are doing the same merely because you don't support Stephen Harper or the Conservatives from your partisan positions. It would matter not who or which political party she was "protesting" against, what she did was childish, undignified, disgraceful and wrong. There is a time and a place for everything and this was neither the time nor the place for her self aggrandizing stunt.
> 
> For shame on her and those that support her actions as in any way being justified or right... it is a sad day indeed.



Our Glorious Leader's Master Control, 
Bushwhacked so sedately in the Red Chamber,
The more he strives, the quicker it falls away
Four years will pass, will pass away
This Page will be remembered a folk hero maid.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader's Master Control,
> Bushwhacked so sedately in the Red Chamber,
> The more he strives, the quicker it falls away
> Four years will pass, will pass away
> This Page will be remembered a folk hero maid.


Free verse?

The Page will be forgotten as a brat who had a brief moment in the sun.


----------



## BigDL

No Charge!


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader's Master Control,
> Bushwhacked so sedately in the Red Chamber,
> The more he strives, the quicker it falls away
> Four years will pass, will pass away
> This Page will be remembered a folk hero maid.


Good one, BigDL. :clap: Maybe we can share a cell in Re-education Camp #101? Paix, mon ami.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Free verse?
> 
> The Page will be forgotten as a brat who had a brief moment in the sun.


Depends on who's writing the history.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Good one, BigDL. :clap: Maybe we can share a cell in Re-education Camp #101? Paix, mon ami.


Gladly!...err? 

Would be an honour.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Gladly!...err?
> 
> Would be an honour.


Really, guys. Why would a civilization based on self-reliance have any use for the likes of you? Re-education would be far more expensive than just kicking your asses into the snow.


----------



## Max

Re-education... yeah, you'd just _love_ that, wouldn't you? The New Order - fascism writ large! Mind you, _proper_ fascism... not your run of the mill dreck. Standards must be maintained.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Re-education... yeah, you'd just _love_ that, wouldn't you? The New Order - fascism writ large! Mind you, _proper_ fascism... not your run of the mill dreck. Standards must be maintained.


They thought they might be re-educated! That's rich!!


----------



## groovetube

off to the superjail with them for life!

But wait, that would cost astronomical amounts of taxes. What's a libertarian to do...


----------



## Max

Wait, let me guess: while away his free time thinking of ways to enslave others who don't think like him?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> off to the superjail with them for life!


That's thinking like a Liberal--gosh, man, get out of your mindset.


----------



## groovetube

except that that's your hero Harper's idea. You applauded his wanting to spend billions on this. In fact, you all were put out that we actually had the gall to want to know the details of the costs.

Costs schmosts you say.

try again.


----------



## Max

A mindset master, directing others to abandon their alleged mindsets.... like the commercial sez, _precious._


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> except that that's your hero Harper's idea. You applauded his wanting to spend billions on this. In fact, you all were put out that we actually had the gall to want to know the details of the costs.
> 
> Costs schmosts you say.
> 
> try again.


Why would I put someone in a superjail for life when I could just kick their asses into the snow? Don't be an idiot--and a wasteful one at that.


----------



## groovetube

kick them, in the snow.

That may not always go as expected though. But interesting policy though.


----------



## screature

Max said:


> You say the past is what it was... but what _was_ it?
> 
> Therein lies the rub. How you explain the past says much about where you are in the here and now. More than ever, in our prolific, multifaceted mediaverse, the past is spin.


You said "there is no past". 

Again, the past is what it was, we cannot change it, only how we interpret it. I know what you are saying, that it is only from a present day perspective that we *say* what the past was, but that is a fiction that we create, an illusion.

There is almost nothing but the past as the "present" is forever fading into the past. The present only exists in nanoseconds and then from that point it is forevermore in the past. In fact it would be much more accurate to say there is no present or at least very very little present... Even as you read this post which I am currently typing, it is in the past.

If there were no past there would be no world and no universe, to say there is no past is the equivalent of saying nothing exists or could exist. As Einstien demonstrated the universe is a time space continuum, without a past there cannot be time and without time there is no universe.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Gladly!...err?
> 
> Would be an honour.


True. See you then and there, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## JAMG

The page seems like an impetuous brat, I think "she" will be forgotten. But her stunt will be remembered. Harper got his majority but he has not earn any respect from anyone who didn't already...
I think he will have his term in the sun and then figure t is not worth it. You can't buy respect and you can't demand it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Really, guys. Why would a civilization based on self-reliance have any use for the likes of you? Re-education would be far more expensive than just kicking your asses into the snow.


You may have hit on something there, Macfury. Put those in these camps, due to political and social conscience, along with all the welfare bums out east, to work shoveling snow every winter. "Work makes you free" after all. This way, we would have these intellectuals and people of conscience slowly dying off due to extreme manual labor, those on welfare earning an honest day wages ............... and have the streets of the GTA clear of all snow all winter long. 

A grand idea, mon ami. :clap::clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Why would I put someone in a superjail for life when I could just kick their asses into the snow? Don't be an idiot--and a wasteful one at that.


No "superjail" for us -- just hard forced labor. Use the billions for the superjails for the true criminals. You should run for office, Macfury. Ottawa needs some fresh ideas like yours. Is there an active Libertarian Party in Canada?


----------



## mrjimmy

JAMG said:


> You can't buy respect and you can't demand it.


Like button.... where is that damn like button....


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> No "superjail" for us -- just hard forced labor. Use the billions for the superjails for the true criminals. You should run for office, Macfury. Ottawa needs some fresh ideas like yours. Is there an active Libertarian Party in Canada?


No jail or forced labour--we will leave you to make a paradise of Ellesmere Island.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> No jail or forced labour--we will leave you to make a paradise of Ellesmere Island.


Cool!  (no pun intended). I could become the next Francis Egerton, who was the 1st Earl of Ellesmere. As the 2nd Earl of Ellesmere, I would open up the Quttinirpaaq National Park to mining and oil exploration. "The business of Ellesmere is business" I would tell those who object to my actions. For those who protest further, it would be off to the Macfury Detention Camp atop Barbeau Peak, named after you, my friend, who is the inspiration for many of my current political actions.

We will build a huge domed city ........ to be known as "Jerusalem Above" or "The Shining City of the North". We will be like Las Vegas, with lights ablaze year round, which can be seen from outer space. We will import all the used tires of North America to burn for fuel and warmth.

A grand idea, mon ami. Merci.


----------



## Max

screature said:


> You said "there is no past".
> 
> Again, the past is what it was, we cannot change it, only how we interpret it. I know what you are saying, that it is only from a present day perspective that we *say* what the past was, but that is a fiction that we create, an illusion.
> 
> There is almost nothing but the past as the "present" is forever fading into the past. The present only exists in nanoseconds and then from that point it is forevermore in the past. In fact it would be much more accurate to say there is no present or at least very very little present... Even as you read this post which I am currently typing, it is in the past.
> 
> If there were no past there would be no world and no universe, to say there is no past is the equivalent of saying nothing exists or could exist. As Einstien demonstrated the universe is a time space continuum, without a past there cannot be time and without time there is no universe.


So you say. But I won't be tripped up by some quasi-logical jiggery-pokery. Not me, fellah!

All the same, I am enjoying this particular juncture of the space/time continuum, and I wish you would too.


----------



## screature

Max said:


> So you say. But I won't be tripped up by some quasi-logical jiggery-pokery. Not me, fellah!
> 
> All the same, I am enjoying this particular juncture of the space/time continuum, and I wish you would too.


LOL... despite the ongoing shenanigans of my work place, I am enjoying this particular juncture of the space/time continuum as well. Have a nice Sunday Max, I think it is going to be a beautiful day out your way if the forecast I heard comes to pass.


----------



## mrjimmy

Welcome to MichaelMoore.com



> *Best Contempt of Parliament Ever!
> Speaker of Canadian Senate holds DePape in "Contempt of Parliament" – the
> same thing Stephen Harper's government was charged with for lying to
> and concealing information from parliament *


Like it or not, she's getting big press. This 'punk' kid may have a bit of a shelf life.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Welcome to MichaelMoore.com
> 
> 
> 
> Like it or not, she's getting big press. This 'punk' kid may have a bit of a shelf life.


Really Michael Moore.... like there is no agenda or self interest there....

Quite frankly she is getting her "15 minutes" that she sought and in the annals of history her actions will rank right up there with the streaker who ran across the stage at the Academy Awards while David Niven was speaking... and truth be told they are pretty much the same in terms of content. They both are meaningless, but they both provide momentary titillation.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Really Michael Moore.... like there is no agenda or self interest there....
> 
> Quite frankly she is getting her "15 minutes" that she sought and in the annals of history her actions will rank right up there with the streaker who ran across the stage at the Academy Awards while David Niven was speaking... and truth be told they are pretty much the same in terms of content. They both are meaningless, but they both provide momentary titillation.


No sane person would claim that Moore doesn't have an agenda. Although Harper and his cronies like to claim that about themselves. 

As far as the annals of history? Well neither you nor I know that now do we?


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Really Michael Moore.... like there is no agenda or self interest there....
> 
> Quite frankly she is getting her "15 minutes" that she sought and in the annals of history her actions will rank right up there with the streaker who ran across the stage at the Academy Awards while David Niven was speaking... and truth be told they are pretty much the same in terms of content. They both are meaningless, but they both provide momentary titillation.


Seems have to led many to distraction.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Seems have to led many to distraction.


zing. 

I'm just lovin seeing cons trip over themselves asserting how meaningless this all really is.

No better than a streaker. Just love it.

Regardless of where you sit on this, you can't deny it made an impact. The reactions out there, in particular the ones against it, seem to be the most passionate.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> No sane person would claim that Moore doesn't have an agenda. Although Harper and his cronies like to claim that about themselves.
> 
> As far as the annals of history? Well neither you nor I know that now do we?


True enough... it is speculation on my part but I would be willing to weigh odds... I hope to be here for at least another thirty years. Care to take a bet so far out...?


----------



## MannyP Design

> Just 61% of Eligible Canadian Voters DID
> Vote, and Just 40% of That 61% Voted Conservative
> "Contrary to Harper's rhetoric, Conservative values are not in fact Canadian
> values. How could they be when 3 out of 4 eligible voters didn't even give
> their support to the Conservatives?" – DePape


Fuzzy logic… those 40% didn't give support to ANYTHING.

Shouldn't her sign have said "START VOTING!" instead?


----------



## mrjimmy

mannyp design said:


> shouldn't her sign have said "start voting!" instead?


+ 1


----------



## groovetube

MannyP Design said:


> Fuzzy logic… those 40% didn't give support to ANYTHING.
> 
> Shouldn't her sign have said "START VOTING!" instead?


sure, it absolutely should have. The conservatives will argue that those who didn't vote didn't because they were fine with the results (fuzzy at best) and the others the opposite. On it goes. The truth is, neither of them ever truly have any kind of a mandate really, it's all just a chess game to get their chance at the almighty money trough and there'll be a lot of buddies to pay off.

Whatever happened to those who stood against the golden pensions? The outright raping of our tax dollars?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> The truth is, neither of them ever truly have any kind of a mandate reallyf...


The truth is that they received the mandate offered by our electoral system--and they will use it.


----------



## groovetube

well that was pretty profound.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> well that was pretty profound.


Thanks. Much better than stating over and over that no government has a mandate, therefore it had better kowtow to the people who spent their votes on the little orange tsunami.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Regardless of where you sit on this, you can't deny it made an impact. The reactions out there, in particular the ones against it, seem to be the most passionate.


There was an article in yesterday's paper about growing tomato plants upside down. Zing! Those upside down tomato plants are sure getting their day in the sun. Some people are passionate about those tomato plants.


----------



## groovetube

hopefully that was at least somewhat cathartic.


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






jump to 1:55, where you can hear Mr Harper in his own words say that if he was PM he would appoint a committee to look in to electoral reform and put the options in a referendum for the nation to decide.

Mr. Harper you have been PM for over 5 years. Where is our referendum on election reform???

Still waiting....impatiently.


----------



## groovetube

unfettered access to the trough does funny things to people's promises once they get into office.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> jump to 1:55, where you can hear Mr Harper in his own words say that if he was PM he would appoint a committee to look in to electoral reform and put the options in a referendum for the nation to decide.


Is this the single most important issue for most of the country? I hope it remains on the back burner until more important matters are taken care of. 

Nature's hemp, maybe?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Is this the single most important issue for most of the country? I hope it remains on the back burner until more important matters are taken care of.
> 
> Nature's hemp, maybe?


quick! distract people from the words that Harper said by pointing out a meaningless graphic!


----------



## Macfury

Hemp legalization is very important to a vocal group of Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> quick! distract people from the words that Harper said by pointing out a meaningless graphic!


you just summed up the conservative way right there.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Hemp legalization is very important to a vocal group of Canadians.


Hemp isn't illegal.The government licenses it's growth. A quick google search reveals that 'nature's hemp' is a retailer that sells hemp oil as a health product. Perfectly legal.

But please continue to use it to deflect from the fact that Harper is a massive hypocrite and liar. 

We wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a good argument.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Hemp isn't illegal.The government licenses it's growth. A quick google search reveals that 'nature's hemp' is a retailer that sells hemp oil as a health product. Perfectly legal.
> 
> But please continue to use it to deflect from the fact that Harper is a massive hypocrite and liar.
> 
> We wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a good argument.


Harper did not put a time limit on it, did he? It's not like a promise to eliminate the GST during a particular term of office, for example.


----------



## groovetube

or not taxing income trusts? Smaller government?

i-rui macfury would be more than happy to go on his usual merry go round, anytime you've got something interesting he just shuts down.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> or not taxing income trusts? Smaller government?
> 
> i-rui macfury would be more than happy to go on his usual merry go round, anytime you've got something interesting he just shuts down.


Election reform is a promise that may yet be kept--although I hope it is defeated.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Election reform is a promise that may yet be kept--although I hope it is defeated.


Time for an Obama reference Macfury when it comes to broken promises and call him a massive hypocrite and a liar just to get these guys all riled up.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Time for an Obama reference Macfury when it comes to broken promises and call him a massive hypocrite and a liar just to get these guys all riled up.


The difference is, they're not waiting for Obama to keep his promises--the guy in the left gets a free pass!


----------



## i-rui

quick! deflect it to Obama so we can stop talking about Harper!

it's not like we're in the 'Canadian Political Thread'.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> quick! deflect it to Obama so we can stop talking about Harper!
> 
> it's not like we're in the 'Canadian Political Thread'.


See even the talk of it is getting them riled up....

The fact is *all* politicians make promises and postulate change that they can't keep/make. They would like to but they are on the outside of government when they make them and once they get inside they realize... whoops... this isn't so easy after all.

Just imagine if Jack actually became Prime Minister.... boy oh boy would he have a lot of splainin to do for all his broken promises. I would bet good money on it.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> See even the talk of it is getting them riled up....


The more things hope, the more they change the same...


----------



## i-rui

So what's the "official" conservative apologist argument?

Is it ok that Harper is a hypocrite because he's trying to pass more important issues to Canadians first (like axing the LGR or pushing through "tough on crime" bills when crime rates are down) or is it ok because "all politicians make promises and postulate change that they can't keep/make"?

Just trying to get the narrative straight.


----------



## Macfury

There is no "narrative." Your top priority is not Harper's top priority. Maybe you'll find yourself crying bitter tears at the end of four years over electoral reform, but perhaps not.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *So what's the "official" conservative apologist argument?*
> 
> Is it ok that Harper is a hypocrite because he's trying to pass more important issues to Canadians first (like axing the LGR or pushing through "tough on crime" bills when crime rates are down) or is it ok because "all politicians make promises and postulate change that they can't keep/make"?
> 
> Just trying to get the narrative straight.


How the hell would I know... I speak for myself and how I see and interpret things based on my experience... Do you speak for all those to the left of centre?? This line of thinking and posting is really quite tiresome and boring.

Some things are just a reality and you just need to get used to it. The reason to bring up Obama would be to point out that even those politicians whom you may support can't, won't, or don't always fulfil all their promises or proposed changes and to judge a politician based solely on those failings is unrealistic because it was unrealistic to expect them to do everything they said they would do in the first place. I have no delusion or fantasies that elected representatives will do everything they say they will or will not do and I judge them based on their total output not on individual failings, looking for every chance to call them hypocrites or liars. But maybe that's just me a and my jaded way of looking at things having been intimately involved with politics for over a decade.


----------



## Max

If you find it tiresome and boring Screature, an equally valid option would be to relieve yourself of your misery and take your leave of this thread for a spell. I mean, it _is_ a viable option.


----------



## screature

Max said:


> If you find it tiresome and boring Screature, an equally valid option would be to relieve yourself of your misery and take your leave of this thread for a spell. I mean, it _is_ a viable option.


Why should I do that because of one or two posters... "one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch baby". Not quite sure why you felt the need to make such a post but there you have it.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Why should I do that because of one or two posters... "one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch baby". Not quite sure why you felt the need to make such a post but there you have it.


Lately, Max seems to pop his head out of his dusty shell only to abjure EhMacers as to whether they should post, or whether they should "take leave." If he emerges while you're here, feed him a little spring salad and pat his scaly head.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> How the hell would I know... I speak for myself and how I see and interpret things based on my experience... Do you speak for all those to the left of centre?? This line of thinking and posting is really quite tiresome and boring.


fair enough. you excuse Harper for being a hypocrite because all politicians do it, and Macfury excuses him because the country has more important issues to be dealt with (like dismantling the LGR). glad i could get that sorted out.



screature said:


> Some things are just a reality and you just need to get used to it. The reason to bring up Obama would be to point out that even those politicians whom you may support can't, won't, or don't always fulfil all their promises or proposed changes and to judge a politician based solely on those failings is unrealistic because it was unrealistic to expect them to do everything they said they would do in the first place. I have no delusion or fantasies that elected representatives will do everything they say they will or will not do and I judge them based on their total output not on individual failings, looking for every chance to call them hypocrites or liars. But maybe that's just me a and my jaded way of looking at things having been intimately involved with politics for over a decade.


i actually *have* criticized Obama for not doing what he promised. IMO he should have closed gitmo and not extended the patriot act. he deserves criticism for these things, and has received it even from his own supporters on the left. some of us won't excuse hypocrisy so easily.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> fair enough. you excuse Harper for being a hypocrite because all politicians do it, and Macfury excuses him because the country has more important issues to be dealt with (like dismantling the LGR). glad i could get that sorted out.
> 
> 
> i actually *have* criticized Obama for not doing what he promised. IMO he should have closed gitmo and not extended the patriot act. he deserves criticism for these things, and has received it even from his own supporters on the left. some of us won't excuse hypocrisy so easily.


Criticize by all means, but to me these failings come as no surprise as I see it in any politician you choose to look at when they are at the highest levels so like I said it is probably just my jaded outlook but I can't personally get all riled up about such details. Like I said I look at the total output and pass my judgement based on that.


----------



## groovetube

I read something today that made me laugh. 
Clement floats user fees in sketch of public-service spending review - The Globe and Mail

I was just recalling the screeching of the "no new taxes" when McGuinty brought in the health surcharge. So user fees to help balance the books.

But no new taxes. Perhaps the cons are beginning to see the difficulty in balancing the chequebook after needlessly squandering revenue?


----------



## groovetube

aaand. They might consider holding off on their killing of the vote subsidies. They may see a real drop in online donations thanks to this:
Conservatives say hackers took donor information - CTV News


----------



## BigDL

*No more Canadian issue to be resolved*

Should Harper show some restraint as an example for all Canadians or should he go to Boston to see game 4 of the Stanley Cup final?



CBCNews said:


> Prime Minister Harper to attend Game 4
> 
> There will be a special guest in attendance for Game 4 of the Stanley Cup Final.
> 
> The Prime Minister's Office says Stephen Harper will be at TD Garden on Wednesday night as the Boston Bruins host the Vancouver Canucks in the crucial matchup....
> 
> ...Harper spokesman Dimitri Soudas says the prime minister will be joined at the game by his daughter Rachel and Heritage Minister James Moore.
> 
> Harper is paying the value of a commercial airline ticket for himself and Rachel for the flight on the Defence Department Challenger jet.
> 
> Moore is also paying his own way, Soudas added.


I say lead by example as actions speaks louder than words


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> I read something today that made me laugh.
> Clement floats user fees in sketch of public-service spending review - The Globe and Mail
> 
> I was just recalling the screeching of the "no new taxes" when McGuinty brought in the health surcharge. So user fees to help balance the books.
> 
> But no new taxes. Perhaps the cons are beginning to see the difficulty in balancing the chequebook after needlessly squandering revenue?






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> Should Harper show some restraint as an example for all Canadians or should he go to Boston to see game 4 of the Stanley Cup final?
> 
> 
> 
> I say lead by example as actions speaks louder than words


Is this really that big a deal?


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Is this really that big a deal?


Not really, since it's only money ............... albeit our money, but there were tax breaks in the budget .............. if you are a corportation. Such is Life.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## kps

Sure let's begrudge the Prime Minister the pleasure of attending the hockey game with his daughter to which he has purchased tickets and is paying for part of the fare. The security detail is part and parcel of the gig, so how much would all that cost on a commercial jet?

God forbid it would be Air Canada. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

kps said:


> Sure let's begrudge the Prime Minister the pleasure of attending the hockey game with his daughter to which he has purchased tickets and is paying for part of the fare. The security detail is part and parcel of the gig, so how much would all that cost on a commercial jet?
> 
> God forbid it would be Air Canada. :lmao:


I sure hope that laughing smilie is aimed at the folks here who can't get their heads around our PM representing our country at a Stanley Cup event in the U.S. Shame on them for their small minded take on the event.


----------



## kps

That too....

Back to the game now.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Not really, since it's only money ............... albeit our money, but there were tax breaks in the budget .............. if you are a corportation. Such is Life.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


meh, when it's yer guy in office, ah let'im spend'er up. He deserves it eh?


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> meh, when it's yer guy in office, ah let'im spend'er up. He deserves it eh?


Zackly.

If it were Chretien, the howls of pork barrel this and adscam that would be deafening.

Harper is a clever little fellow though. He makes plenty of 'celebrity guest appearances' without the aid of a press release. This is the kind of playing to the Tim Horton's crowd kind of divisive issue that will endear him to the fence sitters.


----------



## i-rui

Rookie PC candidate embarrassed over penis photo | Canada | News | Calgary Sun

lol

lol X 2 at the excuse : "Sakach said the device was operating on camera mode in his front pant pocket when it went missing."


----------



## groovetube

Auditor blasts lack of transparency in doling out generous G8 funds - The Globe and Mail

wow. 50 million. No wonder the conservatives were so interested in keeping this one quiet.

Well we just told them this sort of thing, yeah that's cool. go ahead and spend 'er up.


----------



## MLeh

mrjimmy said:


> Zackly.
> 
> If it were Chretien, the howls of pork barrel this and adscam that would be deafening.
> 
> Harper is a clever little fellow though. He makes plenty of 'celebrity guest appearances' without the aid of a press release. This is the kind of playing to the Tim Horton's crowd kind of divisive issue that will endear him to the fence sitters.


Actually, no matter what he does, someone won't approve. Before he was too 'cold and calculating' and 'emotionless', and now he's 'pandering to the Tim Horton's crowd'.

*shrug*


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Not really, since it's only money ............... albeit our money, but there were tax breaks in the budget .............. if you are a corportation. Such is Life.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


It's not our money he paid for the flight personally and can't fly commercially due to security reasons.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Rookie PC candidate embarrassed over penis photo | Canada | News | Calgary Sun
> 
> lol
> 
> lol X 2 at the excuse : "Sakach said the device was operating on camera mode in his front pant pocket when it went missing."


The whole thing makes no sense the way the story is told... anyway I don't see how this has anything to do with Harper.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The whole thing makes no sense the way the story is told... anyway I don't see how this has anything to do with Harper.


Desperate times call for desperate accusations... and the despair is palpable on the left.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Auditor blasts lack of transparency in doling out generous G8 funds - The Globe and Mail
> 
> wow. 50 million. No wonder the conservatives were so interested in keeping this one quiet.
> 
> Well we just told them this sort of thing, yeah that's cool. go ahead and spend 'er up.


Yes and Conservative Government mislead Parliament over two fiscal years.

Being deceitful is not an honourable or Christian manner of behaviour is it?


----------



## groovetube

shhh that's ok with the conservatives.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Yes and Conservative Government mislead Parliament over two fiscal years.
> 
> Being deceitful is not an honourable or Christian manner of behaviour is it?


Nope actually the word mislead was removed from the final report.... why do you want to mislead Canadians about that. 

The good new is the total for the summits came in well under the $1.1 billion originally forecast.



> The Auditor-General said final expenses came in at nearly half of the amount, or $664-million





> The biggest spender at the Summit was the RCMP, which charged $314-million for its security services, followed by Public Safety at $158-million, Foreign Affairs at $114-million and the department of National Defence at $29-million.
> 
> Overall, security accounted for $510-million of the total projected cost of $664-million.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The whole thing makes no sense the way the story is told... anyway I don't see how this has anything to do with Harper.





Macfury said:


> Desperate times call for desperate accusations... and the despair is palpable on the left.


it doesn't have anything to do with Harper, but it does have something to do with Canadian Politics. Look at the thread title.

Plus it's hilarious that just days after the whole 'Weiner-gate', a public figure could still be so stupid to have not put all his "dick pics" on super secure lockdown!



groovetube said:


> Auditor blasts lack of transparency in doling out generous G8 funds - The Globe and Mail
> 
> wow. 50 million. No wonder the conservatives were so interested in keeping this one quiet.
> 
> Well we just told them this sort of thing, yeah that's cool. go ahead and spend 'er up.


ohh...good thing Tony Clement is in charge of where to find those budget cuts!

(well....good if you live in Muskoka. no chance of any cuts there).


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it doesn't have anything to do with Harper, but it does have something to do with Canadian Politics. Look at the thread title.
> 
> Plus it's hilarious that just days after the whole 'Weiner-gate', a public figure could still be so stupid to have not put all his "dick pics" on super secure lockdown!
> 
> 
> 
> ohh...good thing Tony Clement is in charge of where to find those budget cuts!
> 
> (well....good if you live in Muskoka. no chance of any cuts there).


Oops my bad... somehow, I wonder why, I thought I was in the Harper's Sins thread.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Nope actually the word mislead was removed from the final report.... why do you want to mislead Canadians about that.
> 
> The good new is the total for the summits came in well under the $1.1 billion originally forecast.


When Paul Martin accomplished the same thing in the same manner why was it reason for outcry?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> When Paul Martin accomplished the same thing in the same manner why was it reason for outcry?


Not really sure what you are referring to there BigDL.


----------



## groovetube

oh and GREAT NEWS that the conservatives spent 50 million witout any accountability whatsoever in Clements riding!

Adscam anyone?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> oh and GREAT NEWS that the conservatives spent 50 million witout any accountability whatsoever in Clements riding!
> 
> Adscam anyone?


Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch, gt. Why not look at the bright side of this situation. Just think of all the great things that were built in TC's riding? What would you have bought with that $50 million????


----------



## groovetube

and the good news just keeps on comin!

RCMP cash crunch puts squeeze on organized-crime investigations: audit - The Globe and Mail

Great news if you're in organized crime, because the Harper government is more interested in spending BILLIONs and BILLIONS on fighter jets and superjails etc, but hasn't been quite able to keep up proper funding of our national police force to even investigate the big important stuff, you know, like border security etc., that sort of thing.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> and the good news just keeps on comin!
> 
> RCMP cash crunch puts squeeze on organized-crime investigations: audit - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Great news if you're in organized crime, because the Harper government is more interested in spending BILLIONs and BILLIONS on fighter jets and superjails etc, but hasn't been quite able to keep up proper funding of our national police force to even investigate the big important stuff, you know, like border security etc., that sort of thing.


"“The RCMP finds that it is becoming increasingly difficult to continue funding the rising costs of providing national police services through internal reallocation,” the audit report said. 

While the Harper government has put law-and-order issues at the heart of its agenda, the audit confirms the widespread feeling among RCMP brass that crucial projects are underfunded and jeopardized by a lack of support." 

First you, gt, and now the RCMP is kvetching. Lord, can't we go a day witout you whining about how the government is spending our money??? Today it's whining about billions being spent on fighter jets and superjails ........ tomorrow it shall be money spent on helping out the oil and gas industries as they try to make ends meet as oil slips below $100 a barrel. Get a life. Are you in need of food from underfunded foodbanks? Are you being foreclosed from where you live because you lost your job? Are you in need of medical care from an underfunded health care system? If not, then enough with your complaining. Get with the program and start to smile and whistle a happy tune on "the sunny side of the street." As the old song goes, "Happy days are here again ....." 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Not really sure what you are referring to there BigDL.


Martin would low ball and high ball numbers. He said expenditures would be deliberately (high) this much and taxation projections (low) would generate enough to cover it and the taxation would bring in more. Your right it's not the same at all.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> "“The RCMP finds that it is becoming increasingly difficult to continue funding the rising costs of providing national police services through internal reallocation,” the audit report said.
> 
> While the Harper government has put law-and-order issues at the heart of its agenda, the audit confirms the widespread feeling among RCMP brass that crucial projects are underfunded and jeopardized by a lack of support."
> 
> First you, gt, and now the RCMP is kvetching. Lord, can't we go a day witout you whining about how the government is spending our money??? Today it's whining about billions being spent on fighter jets and superjails ........ tomorrow it shall be money spent on helping out the oil and gas industries as they try to make ends meet as oil slips below $100 a barrel. Get a life. Are you in need of food from underfunded foodbanks? Are you being foreclosed from where you live because you lost your job? Are you in need of medical care from an underfunded health care system? If not, then enough with your complaining. Get with the program and start to smile and whistle a happy tune on "the sunny side of the street." As the old song goes, "Happy days are here again ....."
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


You're correct, it's only a matter time, until Our Glorious Leader's policies take effect and return us to the conditions of yesteryear and conditions will marginally improve to a level as they existed when the song "Happy Days Are Here Again" was released and became a hit. Let's scan the top 100 to see what hits that list with a bullet maybe Happy Days will be relevant once again.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> You're correct, it's only a matter time, until Our Glorious Leader's policies take effect and return us to the conditions of yesteryear and conditions will marginally improve to a level as they existed when the song "Happy Days Are Here Again" was released and became a hit. Let's scan the top 100 to see what hits that list with a bullet maybe Happy Days will be relevant once again.


That's the attitude, BigDL. None of the doom and gloom, kvetching and bitching of gt. He will have to see the light. Hopefully, Macfury shall set him straight, since it shall be a long four years for him until the next election. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

how willI ever face the onslaught of 'facts"? It's really only a matter of time isn't it.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> how willI ever face the onslaught of 'facts"? It's really only a matter of time isn't it.


True, gt. Come on over to the dark side ............ I mean the right side. You shall be much happier over here. No more poverty, no more evil, no more scandles, no more of anything that will make you feel sad or angry. Every day is a happy day, or, as we call it "A Harper Day". 

I wake up and whistle the "Mr. Harper's Neighborhood" tune, which is exactly the same as the "Mister Roger's Neighborhood" tune of PBS fame.

It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood, 
A beautiful day for a neighbor, 
Would you be right? 
Could you be right? 

It's a neighborly day in this country, 
A neighborly day for an election, 
Would you be right? 
Could you be right? 

I have always wanted to have a voter just like you, 
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you. 

So let's make the most of this beautiful day, 
Since we're together, we might as well say, 
Would you be right? 
Could you be right? 
Won't you be my neighbor? 

Won't you please, 
Won't you please, 
Please won't you vote for me?


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> how willI ever face the onslaught of 'facts"? It's really only a matter of time isn't it.


Our Glorious Leader doesn't deal in facts, Our Glorious Leader doesn't deal with paper trails, Our Glorious Leader doesn't deal with transparency, Our Glorious Leader deals in results and that's all. Our Glorious Leader's race to the bottom shall be full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes until were sunk.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> True, gt. Come on over to the dark side ............ I mean the right side. You shall be much happier over here. No more poverty, no more evil, no more scandles, no more of anything that will make you feel sad or angry. Every day is a happy day, or, as we call it "A Harper Day".
> 
> I wake up and whistle the "Mr. Harper's Neighborhood" tune, which is exactly the same as the "Mister Roger's Neighborhood" tune of PBS fame.
> 
> It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood,
> A beautiful day for a neighbor,
> Would you be right?
> Could you be right?
> 
> It's a neighborly day in this country,
> A neighborly day for an election,
> Would you be right?
> Could you be right?
> 
> I have always wanted to have a voter just like you,
> I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.
> 
> So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
> Since we're together, we might as well say,
> Would you be right?
> Could you be right?
> Won't you be my neighbor?
> 
> Won't you please,
> Won't you please,
> Please won't you vote for me?


*Right On, Right On, Right On* I shall be your neighbour.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader doesn't deal in facts, Our Glorious Leader doesn't deal with paper trails, Our Glorious Leader doesn't deal with transparency, Our Glorious Leader deals in results and that's all. Our Glorious Leader's race to the bottom shall be full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes until were sunk.


Someone did not take their Happy Pill this morning, BigDL. We are not sinking. "Blue Skies Are Gonna Clear Up, Put On A Happy Face". Thus, count your blessings and join the crowd over on the right side of the street.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> *Right On, Right On, Right On* I shall be your neighbour.


See. Now, be honest .......... don't you feel better already???


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> See. Now, be honest .......... don't you feel better already???


_Neighbour _not neighbor.


----------



## BigDL

Even the RCMP who currently under funded maintain their motto which is not We get our man but is Maintain the *RIGHT*.

Wow looking around everything looks sooooo right. Now I get it.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> and the good news just keeps on comin!
> 
> RCMP cash crunch puts squeeze on organized-crime investigations: audit - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Great news if you're in organized crime, because the Harper government is more interested in spending BILLIONs and BILLIONS on fighter jets and superjails etc, but hasn't been quite able to keep up proper funding of our national police force to even investigate the big important stuff, you know, like border security etc., that sort of thing.


That's because they spend all their money tracking long guns and shotguns owned by farmers and duck hunters. 

...either that or recharging their tazers at the Vancouver airport.

They'd have plenty of money if they said to BC and other provinces: "get your own Provincial police force".

The time has come where the RCMP needs to define its role and acts accordingly.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> That's because they spend all their money tracking long guns and shotguns owned by farmers and duck hunters.
> 
> ...either that or recharging their tazers at the Vancouver airport.
> 
> They'd have plenty of money if they said to BC and other provinces: "get your own Provincial police force".
> 
> The time has come where the RCMP needs to define its role and acts accordingly.


Agreed. We can't continue to subsidize such incompetence. Let them get focused, then see what the appropriate level of funding might be.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> _Neighbour _not neighbor.


Now, now, Macfury. Let's not be difficult. Take your happy pill and think kind thoughts of Mr. Harper's Neighborhood. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Even the RCMP who currently under funded maintain their motto which is not We get our man but is Maintain the *RIGHT*.
> 
> Wow looking around everything looks sooooo right. Now I get it.


Good for you, BigDL. So, today is a better day than yesterday, and today will not be as good as tomorrow. Each day, in every way, things are getting better and better for most of us.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Agreed. We can't continue to subsidize such incompetence. Let them get focused, then see what the appropriate level of funding might be.


"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."


That sounds like a terrible idea...


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."


Your only as good as your next superlative accomplishment.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That sounds like a terrible idea...


But it is what you said, Macfury. "Agreed. We can't continue to subsidize such incompetence. Let them get focused, then see what the appropriate level of funding might be."


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Your only as good as your next superlative accomplishment.


:lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Martin would low ball and high ball numbers. He said expenditures would be deliberately (high) this much and taxation projections (low) would generate enough to cover it and the taxation would bring in more. Your right it's not the same at all.


When did I ever say it was not the same at all? When did I say anything about Martin...? You're the one who brought him up. I asked a question. What's with the 'tude?


----------



## screature

With all the back slapping going on in here you would think it was as an NDP convention.... it's *next* Friday.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> With all the back slapping going on in here you would think it was as an NDP convention.... it's *next* Friday.


The NDP? Are they still in business?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> But it is what you said, Macfury. "Agreed. We can't continue to subsidize such incompetence. Let them get focused, then see what the appropriate level of funding might be."



"Might" be. Not "will" be.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> "Might" be. Not "will" be.


I see.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need ....... maybe."


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I see.
> 
> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need ....... maybe."


No. More accurately, "Maybe I will give you something if I think you deserve it."


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> I see.
> 
> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need ....... maybe."


"From each according to his ability to pay, for each according to consternation and to mute complaint... not a bit more."


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> The NDP? Are they still in business?


Are they ever! The NDP is turning over a new leaf...they're pro business now, don't ya know. Good ol Olivia Chow and Peggy Nash were downtown Toronto today chastising the Harper.gov for not paying damages to the shop owners who suffered damage during the G20. What a turn of events that is, I'm flabbergasted.:lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> No. More accurately, "Maybe I will give you something if I think you deserve it."


What will I have to do to "deserve it", Macfury? Just curious.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> "From each according to his ability to pay, for each according to consternation and to mute complaint... not a bit more."


Not sure how Marx might view this ................ be it Karl or Groucho.  Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> What will I have to do to "deserve it", Macfury? Just curious.


I would decide each case on an individualized basis--as is fair.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I would decide each case on an individualized basis--as is fair.


OK. Sounds fair. Still, what do I have to do to deserve your support?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> OK. Sounds fair. Still, what do I have to do to deserve your support?


Make your pitch.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Make your pitch.


"Once more unto the breach, dear friends".

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war." 

I shall try a bit later .......... since my life may someday depend upon your kindness and humanity. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami. Merci.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> I shall try a bit later .......... since my life may someday depend upon your kindness and humanity. We shall see.


Is kindness and humanity part of the Libertarian ideology?


----------



## groovetube

I was wondering what a successful pitch would result in.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Is kindness and humanity part of the Libertarian ideology?


It's part of mine, but I would never force another person to be kind.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It's part of mine, but I would never force another person to be kind.


Would you stop them from being cruel?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Would you stop them from being cruel?


Yes, I would--provided that cruelty was properly defined. For example, it may be unpleasant to see a retailer raise the price of some commodity. I would not prosecute merely because someone said it was cruel to them. It would have to involve forcing cruelty in the other person--physical assault, trespassing, etc.


----------



## Lawrence

Dr.G. said:


> "Once more unto the breach, dear friends".
> 
> "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."
> 
> I shall try a bit later .......... since my life may someday depend upon your kindness and humanity. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami. Merci.


Think not of yourself today or of others that need less than you,
But think of what you need in your next lifetime.

It is not always better to get everything you want today,
But it can be better to get it in the lifetimes to come.


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> Think not of yourself today or of others that need less than you,
> But think of what you need in your next lifetime.
> 
> It is not always better to get everything you want today,
> But it can be better to get it in the lifetimes to come.


Well, what if you believe this is the only life you have....


----------



## Lawrence

screature said:


> Well, what if you believe this is the only life you have....


I don't, But, You can believe what you want,
Having a memory is a learned thing that can't always be taught.


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> I don't, But, You can believe what you want,
> Having a memory is a learned thing that can't always be taught.


You aren't talking about memory... you are talking about believing in past and future lives for individuals... please explain.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Think not of yourself today or of others that need less than you,
> But think of what you need in your next lifetime.
> 
> It is not always better to get everything you want today,
> But it can be better to get it in the lifetimes to come.





screature said:


> Well, what if you believe this is the only life you have....


Good point, screature. 

I shall think of myself today ......... think of others as well today ......... and try to share with those who are in need.

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Good point, screature.
> 
> I shall think of myself today ......... think of others as well today ......... and try to share with those who are in need.
> 
> Paix, mes amis.


It's the best way to live Dr.G.!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> It's the best way to live Dr.G.!


I think so as well, mrj ............. but I am still contemplating my "pitch" to Macfury for help if I was in need. I have been fairly independent most of my life, and although I grew up very poor, we did not accept any help. Still, there are others who have not been as lucky as I have been, so I am thinking of them as well as myself. If I can get him to see the importance of helping those in need through no fault of their own ......... who knows what he will start to believe???? Still, deep down, he is a good person, so I am not worried about the strength of my "pitch". We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Lawrence

screature said:


> You aren't talking about memory... you are talking about believing in past and future lives for individuals... please explain.


Natures memory


----------



## Lawrence

In grade 8 on an acid trip, I coined the phrase, Nothing is impossible,
Maybe you've heard the saying, Origin is unknown, Yet everyone is aware of it.

I'm 53 now, You do the math.

Life is an interesting thing, If you think it isn't, Then you will never know.


----------



## mrjimmy

Wow, has this thread ever derailed! Must be a beginning of summer thing.


----------



## MLeh

mrjimmy said:


> Wow, has this thread ever derailed! Must be a beginning of summer thing.


That's what happens.

I like to think that there needs to be a balance between 'compassion for others' and 'taking personal responsibility for oneself'. Too many people standing with their hands out expecting the 'government' to take care of them, and not enough people realizing that 'we' are the government - when it comes right down to it there is no 'them', just 'us'.

So, there have been a couple of recent decisions by the Supreme Court which are putting some responsibilities back on individuals instead of on 'the government' (or society at large).

One such decision is making immigrant sponsors actually responsible for the people they sponsor.

This might be worthy of discussion rather than the continual Dr G commentary on himself and his needs and his general philosophy. Let's look at bit at reality and society overall and how it actually functions. Sure we can take responsibility for others, but is it right to take responsibility for others and then expect _others_ to fulfill that obligation that we ourselves have made? 

(This, in essence, is my issue with the left: always wanting to take care of others, sure, but always wanting _someone else_ to pay for it.)


----------



## Macfury

MLeh said:


> This, in essence, is my issue with the left: always wanting to take care of others, sure, but always wanting _someone else_ to pay for it.


Most of the money that I could have once allocated to people who I can see personally need my support, is now taken from me and given to people who meet some sort of minimal criteria. In that sense, I'm no longer capable of doing "good," because "good" requires a conscious decision. The people receiving this money aren't grateful either. They are just receiving to be what they believe they are entitled to. 

There's no morality in a system where charity is not freely given. It's just vote-buying and bureaucratic power grabs over programs designed to salve the conscience of the most guilty-feeling among us with money that does not belong to them. They are never satisfied salving their own consciences with their own money. 

The people I tend to help stay helped. Those chosen by the government tend to stay "being helped" for the rest of their lives.


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> In grade 8 on an acid trip, I coined the phrase, Nothing is impossible,
> Maybe you've heard the saying, Origin is unknown, Yet everyone is aware of it.
> 
> I'm 53 now, You do the math.
> 
> Life is an interesting thing, If you think it isn't, Then you will never know.


We all believe what we choose to... it doesn't make you right but thanks for the completely unnecessary condescension.

Oh and some things are impossible... like wiping your a** with your elbow.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> We all believe what we choose to... it doesn't make you right but thanks for the completely unnecessary condescension.
> 
> Oh and somethings are impossible... like wiping your a** with your elbow.


On an acid trip, you can reach into the past and "coin" phrases that have long been in common use--cool!


----------



## Lawrence

mrjimmy said:


> Wow, has this thread ever derailed! Must be a beginning of summer thing.


It happens, Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting here,
Guess I'll go wipe my butt with my elbow now.


----------



## Lawrence

screature said:


> We all believe what we choose to... it doesn't make you right but thanks for the completely unnecessary condescension.
> 
> Oh and some things are impossible... like wiping your a** with your elbow.


You were the one that wanted a reply.


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> You were the one that wanted a reply.


Sure... a polite one would have been appreciated as my question was polite, your answer... not so much.


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> It happens, *Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting here,*
> Guess I'll go wipe my butt with my elbow now.


Well as long as you ask and seem to be doing so in a rather condescending and combative manner, here is my response in like vein... So do I.


----------



## Lawrence

screature said:


> Sure... a polite one would have been appreciated as my question was polite, your answer... not so much.


My reply was a simple one, "Natures Memory"

My second reply was not in answer to any question, Just a simple recollection.

Anything said after was in response to your negative replies.


----------



## screature

screature said:


> Well, what if you believe this is the only life you have....





screature said:


> You aren't talking about memory... you are talking about believing in past and future lives for individuals... please explain.





screature said:


> We all believe what we choose to... it doesn't make you right but thanks for the completely unnecessary condescension.
> 
> Oh and some things are impossible... like wiping your a** with your elbow.


So tell me where I was being "negative'?

You choose to make posts about "Nature's Memory" what ever that is supposed to mean and past and future lives and you don't think you will be asked to explain what you mean....?

If you choose to live according to some "new age philosophy" that is your business but don't expect the rest of us to buy into it without at least some shred of evidence beyond an acid trip when you were in grade 8.... in some ways you sound like you haven't gotten much beyond that point.


----------



## groovetube

some people just never get, it takes two to tango.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> some people just never get, it takes two to tango.


You are right, I won't allow myself to get drawn in again.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> some people just never get, it takes two to tango.


That's rich coming from you...


----------



## groovetube

why cause I get it?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> why cause I get it?


Trust me, groove, that's the last thing anybody here would accuse you of.


----------



## groovetube

oh macfury you're gonna give me a complex lol.

I just laugh when people post snarky comments and then whine about civility.

pffft.


----------



## Vandave

Lawrence said:


> Think not of yourself today or of others that need less than you,
> But think of what you need in your next lifetime.


This is why I am going to convert all my assets into gold and bury it in a hidden place. I will then leave clues to my future self to find the pot o'gold (hint 1 - look in Ireland). 

Why more Buddhists haven't been doing this is beyond me.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave, this constitutes poor planning. Exactly how much will you need in your next lifetime? Make sure to allocate enough for your current life.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Vandave, this constitutes poor planning. Exactly how much will you need in your next lifetime? Make sure to allocate enough for your current life.


He won't need much...Lawrence will support him.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> He won't need much...Lawrence will support him.


Sure, but only as long as there are unions around to inflate wages.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Sure, but only as long as there are unions around to inflate wages.


If that doesn't work out, I'm picturing Vandave sitting, cross legged, on a Himalayan mountain top chanting "Ommmmmm".


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> If that doesn't work out, I'm picturing Vandave sitting, cross legged, on a Himalayan mountain top chanting "Ommmmmm".


Serves him right, only thinking about his future self...


----------



## Vandave

kps said:


> If that doesn't work out, I'm picturing Vandave sitting, cross legged, on a Himalayan mountain top chanting "Ommmmmm".


Damn, that's where it was going to be hidden. I need a new spot now.

I'm not buying the gold until I'm near the end of my life and after I have acquired massive amounts of wealth. 

If Steve Jobs is a smart Buddhist, he will do it too.


----------



## kps

Vandave said:


> Damn, that's where it was going to be hidden. I need a new spot now.
> 
> I'm not buying the gold until I'm near the end of my life and after I have acquired massive amounts of wealth.
> 
> If Steve Jobs is a smart Buddhist, he will do it too.


Jobs will hide his gold in the "cloud"...


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> Serves him right, only thinking about his future self...


It's a serious question about Buddhism though. If you thought you were coming back, why not give half away to the poor for the Karma and hide the other half to be found by your future self?

Or maybe this is why China invaded Tibet. Probably digging holes through the whole country right now.


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Are they ever! The NDP is turning over a new leaf...they're pro business now, don't ya know. Good ol Olivia Chow and Peggy Nash were downtown Toronto today chastising the Harper.gov for not paying damages to the shop owners who suffered damage during the G20. What a turn of events that is, I'm flabbergasted.:lmao:


Do you think The Harper CO. should be responsible for paying those damages?


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> Do you think The Harper CO. should be responsible for paying those damages?


No question that they should pay something and I think eventually they will, but it'll be like pulling teeth.

I just find it hilarious how the NDP all of a sudden support business when it's convenient to their agenda.


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> No question that they should pay something and I think eventually they will, but it'll be like pulling teeth.
> 
> I just find it hilarious how the NDP all of a sudden support business when it's convenient to their agenda.


It's not quite the same as lowering corporate taxes though, is it? Also, the ones they are supporting are small businesses which have never been in the NDP's scopes.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Do you think The Harper CO. should be responsible for paying those damages?


No. The federal government should be responsible. It also has some legitimate reason to sue the Ontario government for part of the damages, but that won't likely happen.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> No. The federal government should be responsible. It also has some legitimate reason to sue the Ontario government for part of the damages, but that won't likely happen.


When I say 'The Harper CO.' MF, I mean the federal government.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> When I say 'The Harper CO.' MF, I mean the federal government.


The federal government would have been responsible for some of it, regardless of who was in power.


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> It's not quite the same as lowering corporate taxes though, is it? Also, the ones they are supporting are small businesses which have never been in the NDP's scopes.


Probably as many if not more big corporate stores got damaged and lost sales.

Macfury is right, The Dalton Gang has their own responsibility in the matter to consider. Didn't hear Chow and Nash utter a peep in that direction.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> The Dalton Gang has their own responsibility in the matter to consider. Didn't hear Chow and Nash utter a peep in that direction.


They are not interested in pursuing this line of inquiry at this time... perhaps until after the provincial election.


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Probably as many if not more big corporate stores got damaged and lost sales.
> 
> Macfury is right, The Dalton Gang has their own responsibility in the matter to consider. Didn't hear Chow and Nash utter a peep in that direction.



It was Harper's party after all. I think eyeballing Dalton is a little partisan deflection.


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> It was Harper's party after all. I think eyeballing Dalton is a little partisan deflection.


Oh? Did you already forgiven him for the "Secret Law"?


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Oh? Did you already forgiven him for the "Secret Law"?


All I'm saying is that it was Harper's party.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> All I'm saying is that it was Harper's party.


It was the federal government's party and the provincial government agreed to help run it, so the provincial government is also responsible for the damages, particularly since its policies helped to create the untenable situations that led to violence and destruction of property. 

I think it was McGuinty Inc., that was in charge of provincial security, wasn't it kps?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It was the federal government's party and the provincial government agreed to help run it,


Did they have a choice?


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> All I'm saying is that it was Harper's party.


It was his party and you can cry if you want to...(sing it)

Don't know if you've seen the report that says that the final numbers put the cost for this "event" at 670M and not the 1.2B budgeted. That should leave a good chunk to settle with those who suffered damage. Like I said, it'll probably be prolonged, but I think eventually they'll settle. But of course, it'll never be enough.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Did they have a choice?


Many choices. And McGuinty made some bad ones, on behalf of the provincial government, that led to property damage.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> It was the federal government's party and the provincial government agreed to help run it, so the provincial government is also responsible for the damages, particularly since its policies helped to create the untenable situations that led to violence and destruction of property.
> 
> I think it was McGuinty Inc., that was in charge of provincial security, wasn't it kps?


Not a 100% sure, but I think so. They co-ordinated the whole thing between the RCMP, OPP and Metro.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Many choices. And McGuinty made some bad ones, on behalf of the provincial government, that led to property damage.


My question was, could they opt out of Harper's party?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> My question was, could they opt out of Harper's party?


They could not have changed the venue of Canada's G20 obligations. They could only choose to deliver their part of the provincial obligation in a fashion that caused no damage or harm. Now if you're angling for having Miller and Associates on the hook for some of this, I might agree,


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> They could not have changed the venue of Canada's G20 obligations. They could only choose to deliver their part of the provincial obligation in a fashion that caused no damage or harm. Now if you're angling for having Miller and Associates on the hook for some of this, I might agree,


So they couldn't opt out. So it really was Harper's party.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> So they couldn't opt out. So it really was Harper's party.


They could have opted out of providing additional security, but it would have looked very bad on them indeed. However, after prudently agreeing to some security measures, McGuinty inadvisedly passed the Ontario Public Works Protection Act, which created the confusing scenario under which citizens were harassed. The question is, how much is McGunity on the hook for?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> They could have opted out of providing additional security, but it would have looked very bad on them indeed. However, after prudently agreeing to some security measures, McGuinty inadvisedly passed the Ontario Public Works Protection Act, which created the confusing scenario under which citizens were harassed. The question is, how much is McGunity on the hook for?


We would need to know much more about the passing of that act to determine this. In the meantime, the Feds should shoulder the lion's share of the compensation burden. It was after all, _their party._


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> We would need to know much more about the passing of that act to determine this. In the meantime, the Feds should shoulder the lion's share of the compensation burden. It was after all, _their party._


We need a public inquiry first, to assess blame, and to allocate the appropriate damage costs to the federal government, and to McGuinty's mishandling of security.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> We need a public inquiry first, to assess blame, and to allocate the appropriate damage costs to the federal government, and to McGuinty's mishandling of security.


There wouldn't have been anything to mishandle had Harper not inflicted us with the burden of hosting this joke. 

Accept responsibility and pay up.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> There wouldn't have been anything to mishandle had Harper not inflicted us with the burden of hosting this joke.
> 
> Accept responsibility and pay up.


There would be no police brutality if protesters hadn't come around to protest. Why don't we just get the protesters to accept responsibility and pay up?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> There would be no police brutality if protesters hadn't come around to protest. Why don't we just get the protesters to accept responsibility and pay up?


Why don't you try?

You find it impossible to ascribe any blame to all things right wing/ Harper/ Conservative don't you? It's kind of like Fonzie trying to say 'sorry'.

Good entertainment value MF!


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> why don't you try?
> 
> You find it impossible to ascribe any blame to all things right wing/ harper/ conservative don't you? It's kind of like fonzie trying to say 'sorry'.
> 
> Good entertainment value mf!


+1


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Why don't you try?
> 
> You find it impossible to ascribe any blame to all things right wing/ Harper/ Conservative don't you? It's kind of like Fonzie trying to say 'sorry'.
> 
> Good entertainment value MF!


I think we need a public inquiry to:

a) Determine actual damages, and 
b) allocate damage costs between the federal and provincial governments. 

I disagree entirely that the federal government should pay the bill before we determine how much of this is the fault of McGuinty.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I think we need a public inquiry to:
> 
> a) Determine actual damages, and
> b) allocate damage costs between the federal and provincial governments.
> 
> I disagree entirely that the federal government should pay the bill before we determine how much of this is the fault of McGuinty.


Talk about a waste of taxpayer's dollars.

Anyone who thinks that hosting the G20 in a large, densely populated urban center won't result in extensive private and public property damage raise their hand.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Talk about a waste of taxpayer's dollars.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that hosting the G20 in a large, densely populated urban center won't result in extensive private and public property damage raise their hand.


A waste of taxpayer's dollars to determine actual damages? Just cheaper to cut a cheque, eh?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> A waste of taxpayer's dollars to determine actual damages? Just cheaper to cut a cheque, eh?


Cheaper yes. Here's some basic math.

Public inquiry + cutting a cheque = $$$

Taking responsibility + cutting a cheque = $

Or are you hoping they will stonewall long enough that they can weasel out of their responsibilities?


----------



## Macfury

Let's save some money then, and allocate a third of the costs to McGunity right off.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Let's save some money then, and allocate a third of the costs to McGunity right off.


You're getting there MF, slowly but surely.


----------



## Macfury

I think we can also eliminate welfare, since it is more costly to determine who needs money than to eliminate it entirely. Save the taxpayers money, right?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I think we can also eliminate welfare, since it is more costly to determine who needs money than to eliminate it entirely. Save the taxpayers money, right?


Out trolling again are you?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Out trolling again are you?


The principle of "saving taxpayers money" doesn't look so good unless applied only to "Harper CO" does it?

Thought you would choke.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The principle of "saving taxpayers money" doesn't look so good unless applied only to "Harper CO" does it?
> 
> Thought you would choke.


:lmao:

Your taunt is so threatening and damaging to my sensitive ego!

A public inquiry isn't needed. Reread my posts.


----------



## Macfury

A public inquiry isn't needed. Of course not. Just cut some cheques. Easy peasy.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> No question that they should pay something and I think eventually they will, but it'll be like pulling teeth.
> 
> I just find it hilarious how the NDP all of a sudden support business when it's convenient to their agenda.


Just because it's news to you, it does not mean it's new.

The CCF/NPD/NDP have been supporters of small business and family farmers (not big agra) since the inception of these parties.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Let's save some money then, and allocate a third of the costs to McGunity right off.


There is only one tax payer. Apparently you. 

How does shifting to a provincial government make it better. Liberal?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> A public inquiry isn't needed. Of course not. Just cut some cheques. Easy peasy.


Exactly. Take responsibility and cut some cheques. No G20, no property damage. Get it?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Exactly. Take responsibility and cut some cheques. No G20, no property damage. Get it?


The position is patently absurd.


----------



## BigDL

I agree MF why should business people in the COTU reach into my pocket and take my money for the poor quality of people attracted to the COTU.

Business people didn't have to set up shop at street level in downtown COTU. 

They could conducted business in the underground economy in the malls under street level. They could have opened shops in the highrise towers. They should not exposed me to risk.These business people insisted upon glass storefronts. They should accept all risks. If only these merchants had the foresight to have brick or steel storefronts.

Why should my pockets be picked for the loosey goosey manner that business is conducted in the COTU, most of these business people do not want to share *their* profits I'm sure.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I...most of these business people do not want to share *their* profits I'm sure.


Why should they share their profits with you?


----------



## BigDL

Exactly and why should I share in paying for their damage?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Exactly and why should I share in paying for their damage?


You tell me. You wanted the government to cut them a cheque without even the slightest oversight.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> You tell me. You wanted the government to cut them a cheque without even the slightest oversight.


What in the name of all that's good and holy are you on about now? Can't you stand prosperity?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> What in the name of all that's good and holy are you on about now? Can't you stand prosperity?


A sort of FDR prosperity, eh?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> A sort of FDR prosperity, eh?


Sounds good to me. Now, all we need is a leader of the stature of FDR here in Canada to create a New Deal for Canada. Not sure if there is one such person on the horizon. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Sounds good to me. Now, all we need is a leader of the stature of FDR here in Canada to create a New Deal for Canada. Not sure if there is one such person on the horizon. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


The New Deal and FDR's other economic policies extended the Depression by at least five years, Dr. G. How FDR became beloved of so many is beyond me.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The New Deal and FDR's other economic policies extended the Depression by at least five years, Dr. G. How FDR became beloved of so many is beyond me.


Since this is a thread about Canadian politics, I shall not get into another FDR debate with you, Macfury. We agreed to disagree that FDR started WWI, so let's continue the treaty.

As for how he became so beloved, ask someone from the US who was suddenly out of work and without food back during the Depression, or someone from the rural areas around the Tennessee Valley, or someone who worked in the CCC, or someone who was able to earn an honest wage for real work in the WPA, or ................ well, you get the picture. I am told that during the Depression, my grandparents had a picture of him in their kitchen.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

The good that FDR accomplished he thwarted the infiltration of socialism into US society and politics. Unions lost their major weapon of striking at any time and have their strike weapon limited.

People had a fair deal given to them instead of fighting for it and establishing the institutions to fight for it. 

That is why today the organized labor movement in the Good ol USA is limited to 10% of workers.

That is why the progressives don't look all that different from the conservatives.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The good that FDR accomplished he thwarted the infiltration of socialism into US society and politics. Unions lost their major weapon of striking at any time and have their strike weapon limited.
> 
> People had a fair deal given to them instead of fighting for it and establishing the institutions to fight for it.
> 
> That is why today the organized labor movement in the Good ol USA is limited to 10% of workers.
> 
> That is why the progressives don't look all that different from the conservatives.


Oh is that what happened?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Oh is that what happened?


Well how do explain the difference between the USA and Canada.

Why is Canadian organised Labour levels at 30% and how do you explain that we have an openly socialist political party as the official opposition?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Well how do explain the difference between the USA and Canada.
> 
> Why is Canadian organised Labour levels at 30% and how do you explain that we have an *openly socialist* political party as the official opposition?


Really...? They try to to pretend they are not whenever it suits them... me thinks it is going to suit them for the next four years.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Since this is a thread about Canadian politics, I shall not get into another FDR debate with you, Macfury. We agreed to disagree that FDR started WWI, so let's continue the treaty.
> 
> As for how he became so beloved, ask someone from the US who was suddenly out of work and without food back during the Depression, or someone from the rural areas around the Tennessee Valley, or someone who worked in the CCC, or someone who was able to earn an honest wage for real work in the WPA, or ................ well, you get the picture. I am told that during the Depression, my grandparents had a picture of him in their kitchen.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well how do explain the difference between the USA and Canada.
> 
> Why is Canadian organised Labour levels at 30% and how do you explain that we have an openly socialist political party as the official opposition?


In the U.S., the Democrats are just as "openly socialist."


----------



## groovetube

an you have to make sure that when you say 'socialist', you have to hiss the sssss, sorta like a snake, an evil ssssserpent. ssssssssocialists!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> an you have to make sure that when you say 'socialist', you have to hiss the sssss, sorta like a snake, an evil ssssserpent. ssssssssocialists!


Not evil--fat, lazy and philosophically bankrupt.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Not evil--fat, lazy and philosophically bankrupt.


the opposite of socialist? Well I wouldn't have gone -that- far, but now that you mention it...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> the opposite of socialist? Well I wouldn't have gone -that- far, but now that you mention it...


That's got to be the weakest comeback of the day, 'groove. Have some coffee and do another one.


----------



## groovetube

it was an appropriate level to the comment it was directed at.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> it was an appropriate level to the comment it was directed at.


"Good enuf" says groove.


----------



## groovetube

GIGO.

And a simpleton is pointing that out... :baby:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> GIGO.
> 
> And a simpleton is pointing that out... :baby:


“He who has a hasty temper exalts folly.” (Proverbs 14:29)


----------



## groovetube

more unrelated gibberish macfury?

One would hope it's at least, cathartic.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> And a simpleton is pointing that out... :baby:


Checked your avatar's by-line lately?


----------



## groovetube

you're a genius macfury. Put a gold star on your cheek, and wear it proudly.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you're a genius macfury. Put a gold star on your cheek, and wear it proudly.


"Pride goeth before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18


----------



## groovetube

ah. A triumphant, yet humble, macfury.

This is a good thing indeed!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Not evil--fat, lazy and philosophically bankrupt.


as opposed to fat, lazy and morally bankrupt?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> as opposed to fat, lazy and morally bankrupt?


No, as opposed to evil. Moral and philosophical bankruptcy go hand in hand.


----------



## groovetube

cause macfury says so.

Don't get all moral now... cause y'know....


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> cause macfury says so.


Well, yes.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> "Pride goeth before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18


Amen, Brother Macfury. Amen, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## Max

obey the smasher!
his avatar commands it~
fictitious hero.


----------



## Dr.G.

Max said:


> obey the smasher!
> his avatar commands it~
> fictitious hero.


"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" ........... "Thou shalt not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" ....... "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God".


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" ........... "Thou shalt not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" ....... "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God".


The Smasher fears not the reaper however cow bell, well that's a whole nother thing.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> The Smasher fears not the reaper however cow bell, well that's a whole nother thing.


The Golden Cow Bell

1 When the people saw that Macfury was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Max and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Macfury who brought us up out of ehMacLand, we don’t know what has happened to him.” 

2 Max answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 

3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Max. 

4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, who brought you up out of ehMacLand.” 

5 When Max saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 

6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry. 

7 Then the Lord said to Macfury, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of ehMacLand, have become corrupt. 

8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, who brought you up out of ehMacLand.’ 

9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Macfury, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 

10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation ........ a Libertarian nation.”


----------



## Macfury

I thinkl Max was errin'...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

"Macfury turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Libertarian Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. The tablets were the work of The Blessed Free Market; the writing was the writing of The Holy Pundits of the Blessed Free Market, engraved on the tablets."


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> "Macfury turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Libertarian Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. The tablets were the work of The Blessed Free Market; the writing was the writing of The Holy Pundits of the Blessed Free Market, engraved on the tablets."


And the Reaganites banded together to smite the Hippites, the last tribe of free-loving peaceniks, as well as the Unionites, the last tribe that banded together in solidarity, and a new wave of trickle down religion blessed the land. 

And the Lord looked down upon this new land and said, "This is Good."


----------



## Macfury

Well, you know what they say about hippies Dr. G: someone who looks like Tarzan, walks like Jane, and smells like Cheetah.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Well, you know what they say about hippies Dr. G: someone who looks like Tarzan, walks like Jane, and smells like Cheetah.


Have not heard that one before, oh wise one.

What words of Wisdom do you have for your flock today?


----------



## groovetube

It's hard to start my day without at least one or two doses of personal responsibility rants.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> It's hard to start my day without at least one or two doses of personal responsibility rants.


Have Faith, my friend.

Macfury is my Shepherd, I shall not want
He maketh me to lie down in green pasture,
He leadeth me beside still waters, he restoreth my soul.
He leadeth me in the paths of Mac operating systems
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Windows
I fear no evil, for thou art with me.
Thy iPod and thy iPad2 they comfort me.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Well, you know what they say about hippies Dr. G: someone who looks like Tarzan, walks like Jane, and smells like Cheetah.


And what of the Yippites, oh Wise One? If thus is said of the Hippies, what about the Yippies? And have the Yuppies started to vote for the NDP in Quebec? And what of the slain Liberalites, slain and torn asunder by the Harperites? Where will they wander? In the wilderness of the desert? In the new found lands of the east?

Guide us with thy words and wisdom, oh Wise One. For this is the Canadian Political Thread, and thou are with us always.


----------



## screature

Whenever you guys are done with smashing the smasher maybe we can get this thread back on track...




BigDL said:


> Well how do explain the difference between the USA and Canada.
> 
> Why is Canadian organised Labour levels at 30% and how do you explain that we have an *openly socialist* political party as the official opposition?





screature said:


> Really...? They try to to pretend they are not whenever it suits them... me thinks it is going to suit them for the next four years.


Too funny... it is just as I said.

NDP leaving ‘socialism' behind — in constitution, policy manual



> New Democrats are preparing to cast off the shackles of the socialist label by eliminating the word from the federal party constitution at a policy convention this weekend.
> 
> “The New Democratic Party is dedicated to the application of social democratic principles to government,” reads part of a proposed new preamble to the party constitution, which will be voted on at the 50th anniversary convention in downtown Vancouver. “These principles include an unwavering commitment to economic and social equality, individual freedom and responsibility, and democratic rights of citizens to shape the future of their communities.”
> 
> That language is much different from what exists in the current version of the constitution, where the principles of “democratic socialism” are described as being against making profits and for social ownership.


----------



## Macfury

Can't say I don't like what's happening to the NDP--their brief success has forced them into the mainstream.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Can't say I don't like what's happening to the NDP--their brief success has forced them into the mainstream.


And as Macfury raised his staff and caused the waters of the Rideau Canal to part, the children of the NDP depared from the Land of the Socialists into the Promised Land of the Official Opposition. 

Macfury then sings the "Song of the Sea", as the Lord casts the Liberalites into "tehomat", the mythical abyss.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like most of the businesses harmed by the G20 violence are getting their cheques. I wasn't aware that the claims were already being assessed through an inquiry by Audit Services Canada.

Read more: Businesses get compensation for G8, G20 summits


----------



## groovetube

It's too bad Harper and co decided to spend ridiculous amounts of money having this in Toronto.

So much for fiscal conservatism.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> And what of the Yippites, oh Wise One? If thus is said of the Hippies, what about the Yippies? And have the Yuppies started to vote for the NDP in Quebec? And what of the slain Liberalites, slain and torn asunder by the Harperites? Where will they wander? In the wilderness of the desert? In the new found lands of the east?
> 
> Guide us with thy words and wisdom, oh Wise One. For this is the Canadian Political Thread, and thou are with us always.





Dr.G. said:


> Have Faith, my friend.
> 
> Macfury is my Shepherd, I shall not want
> He maketh me to lie down in green pasture,
> He leadeth me beside still waters, he restoreth my soul.
> He leadeth me in the paths of Mac operating systems
> Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Windows
> I fear no evil, for thou art with me.
> Thy iPod and thy iPad2 they comfort me.





Dr.G. said:


> Have not heard that one before, oh wise one.
> 
> What words of Wisdom do you have for your flock today?





Dr.G. said:


> And as Macfury raised his staff and caused the waters of the Rideau Canal to part, the children of the NDP depared from the Land of the Socialists into the Promised Land of the Official Opposition.
> 
> Macfury then sings the "Song of the Sea", as the Lord casts the Liberalites into "tehomat", the mythical abyss.


Getting a little old by now don't you think Dr. G.


----------



## Max

all which feels ancient
becomes born anew, in grace~
no need to play cop


----------



## CubaMark

I rather enjoy Dr. G's forays into religious poetry...


----------



## screature

Max said:


> all which feels ancient
> becomes born anew, in grace~
> *no need to play cop*


Just an opinion, right back at ya.


----------



## CubaMark

*And now... a probably "in vain" attempt to bring this discussion back on track...
*
I had posted earlier (under "Harper's Sins?" can't seem to find it) an item that indicated Harper's senate reform efforts were in jeopardy because Conservative senators -_ ones that he appointed_ - opposed his plan. Now we have this:

*Senate dissent shifts reform bill to House*



> CBC News has learned Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided to make it a Commons bill because of grumbling from some of the senators he appointed. The substance of the bill will be largely the same, but won't have the symbolism of senators voting on their own reform first.
> 
> Many senators expressed their concerns during a meeting on Tuesday with the minister of state for democratic reform, Tim Uppal.
> 
> *Some senators were hoping to be "grandfathered" so they would not have to run for election.* Others didn't like the 8-year term limit proposed in a previous piece of legislation, instead wanting terms to be 12 years or more.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *And now... a probably "in vain" attempt to bring this discussion back on track...
> *
> I had posted earlier (under "Harper's Sins?" can't seem to find it) an item that indicated Harper's senate reform efforts were in jeopardy because Conservative senators -_ ones that he appointed_ - opposed his plan. /QUOTE]
> 
> Good on Harper for sticking to his guns.


----------



## groovetube

well if he appointed senators that oppose his plan, then he really pull the wool over your eyes didn't he.

But brother macfury, has proclaimed that all is right in Harper's world, so mote it be.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> well if he appointed senators that oppose his plan, then he really pull the wool over your eyes didn't he.
> 
> But brother macfury, has proclaimed that all is right in Harper's world, so mote it be.


Going to try to put a bad spin on him trying to keep his senate reform promise?


----------



## groovetube

there's no need to obviously.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Looks like most of the businesses harmed by the G20 violence are getting their cheques. I wasn't aware that the claims were already being assessed through an inquiry by Audit Services Canada.
> 
> Read more: Businesses get compensation for G8, G20 summits


Such good boys, cutting cheques without the aid of a public inquiry. Patently absurd but wonders never cease.


----------



## i-rui

pay the money and hope people will shut up about finding out exactly *how & why* our charter rights were trampled on.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Such good boys, cutting cheques without the aid of a public inquiry. Patently absurd but wonders never cease.


There is an inquiry. That's why I pointed it out.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> There is an inquiry. That's why I pointed it out.


The Inquiry of which you speak has nothing to do do with compensating local businesses for Harper's 'party'.

From The Vancouver Sun article:



> Once the claims were filed, they were assessed by Audit Services Canada to determine whether they met the criteria for compensation and the Summits Management Office.


They took responsibility and that made them big boys. You throw a party? You clean up the mess.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> pay the money and hope people will shut up about finding out exactly *how & why* our charter rights were trampled on.


That's a whole other issue. Strangely, one which many Canadians don't seem to have an issue with. Perhaps it's the way it's being sold to them.

As far as direct responsibility, it's a good start, compensating local business for property damage.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> The Inquiry of which you speak has nothing to do do with compensating local businesses for Harper's 'party'.
> 
> They took responsibility and that made them big boys. You throw a party? You clean up the mess.


Actually, we both got it wrong. It was compensation for preventing customers from getting to the businesses due to security and had been planned for quite some time. I'm now satisfied that they didn't follow the inane "big boy" model of "cut the cheque" without a proper inquiry.


----------



## groovetube

Look! Shiny ball!

We're also satisfied they blew in one shot what people screech and moan about that is almost the entire years funding for the CBC?

You just can't make this sheer lunacy up!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Look! Shiny ball!
> 
> We're also satisfied they blew in one shot what people screech and moan about that is almost the entire years funding for the CBC?
> 
> You just can't make this sheer lunacy up!


I'm still happy to see it not go to the CBC. The G8 happened just once, but the CBC has its hand out year after year pretty much approaching a century.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Actually, we both got it wrong. It was compensation for preventing customers from getting to the businesses due to security and had been planned for quite some time. I'm now satisfied that they didn't follow the inane "big boy" model of "cut the cheque" without a proper inquiry.


Please enlighten me regarding this 'proper inquiry'?

We were previously discussing a public inquiry were we not?

Steve CO. is also planning on reimbursing qualifying business for property damage. Which has, according to accounts, been like pulling teeth.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I'm still happy to see it not go to the CBC. The G8 happened just once, but the CBC has its hand out year after year pretty much approaching a century.


you really think that billion dollar boondoggle will only happen once? After the voters gave them a majority after that?

heh. riiiiight.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you really think that billion dollar boondoggle will only happen once? After the voters gave them a majority after that?
> 
> heh. riiiiight.


Once every eight years, 'groove. Because it's called the G-8. An the meetings are annual.

And they will happen regardless of who is in power.

But the CBC will keep on taking, year after year.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Once every eight years, 'groove. Because it's called the G-8. An the meetings are annual.
> 
> And they will happen regardless of who is in power.
> 
> But the CBC will keep on taking, year after year.


let's talk slower. You think they won't find anything else to blow piles of dough on?

Man you've turned out to be quite the conservative apologist for someone who bills himself a libertarian.


----------



## i-rui

great article on the real danger of the cons axing the per vote subsidy :

GuelphMercury - Are the Conservatives ?gerrymandering? donor dollars...


Are the Conservatives ‘gerrymandering’ donor dollars?

Canadians need to sit up and pay attention to the profound changes to our electoral financing system that are being pushed through Parliament by the federal Conservatives.

How money is raised and distributed among political parties and candidates is one of the most important factors underlying the health of our democracy. The impending changes should be an opportunity for deeper understanding and broad public debate around this key issue. Unfortunately, with the exception of a few columnists, op-ed writers and a handful of journalists, very little investigative reporting or in-depth discussion is taking place.

Perhaps the biggest falsehood recycled in the media is that the Conservatives are cutting public subsidies to political parties. There are currently three mechanisms which channel public funds to the major parties. The per-vote subsidy is the most transparent and democratically distributed subsidy. This is the one the Conservatives are cutting — while leaving in place funding mechanisms which overwhelmingly give them the biggest slice of public largesse while starving the other parties.

The per-vote subsidy has provided about $2 per year for each vote a party received in the previous election. No funding is generated by the 40 per cent of Canadians who do not vote. 

The political contributions subsidy comes from the 50 to 75 per cent tax credit a donor receives at filing time. If I were to make a $100 donation, I’d get a $75 reduction on the taxes I would otherwise pay. My net cost is $25, but the tax coffers are $75 poorer. As a result, the full cost of a donation is not covered by the individual donor, but by the federal treasury through lost revenues.

The third public subsidy is the electoral expense reimbursement. Parties and candidates who meet a minimum vote threshold receive 50 to 60 per cent of their expenses back from the public purse.

Columnist Geoffrey Stevens laid out some concrete figures in a recent column. In 2009, tax credits for Conservative donors cost the treasury $10.5 million. Reimbursements from the 2008 election put $21.4 million of public money in the Conservatives’ coffers. Even without the per-vote subsidy, if these funding levels remain the same, the Conservatives will collect more than $60 million of public money over the next four years through the tax credits and the electoral expense reimbursement.

Perhaps the most concerning aspect of the impending change is the transfer of funding influence from active voters, regardless of income, to a miniscule minority of wealthy Canadians. The per-vote funding subsidy allowed the 60 per cent of Canadians who voted to make a straightforward contribution to their party of choice. Less than one per cent of Canadians make direct federal political donations. The power of these donations is grossly distorted as they can trigger up to 700 per cent in matching public funds through a multiplier effect. It works like this: I make a donation of $100. At tax time the amount I owe is reduced by $75, which really comes out of the public purse. During an election year, with my $100 in hand, the party can spend $200, knowing they will get an electoral expense reimbursement of $100. At the end of the day, my net donation of $25 has now triggered $175 of public funding.

To make matters worse, the ability to fund political parties does not meet the test for all Canadians to able to participate equally. The federal political donation tax credit is a non-refundable tax credit. It reduces the amount of tax owing. If I am a senior on old-age security, a student, or a stay-at-home-parent with no taxable income, I receive no benefit whatsoever. A $100 donation costs me the full $100, while a wealthier Canadian will only be out of pocket $25. This means that it costs low-income Canadians up to four times as much to support their party of choice. Canadians with zero personal tax owing represent one-third of tax filers. This means that as many as eight million Canadians are unfairly handicapped when it comes to private donations.

When it comes to political financing, a healthy democracy is founded on a level playing field. Parties need financial resources to conduct research, articulate policy and communicate their ideas to voters. We need to hear a diversity of creative solutions to the complex problems we face. Even citizens who support Conservative policies must recognize the essential checks and balances provided by properly funded opposition parties in our parliamentary system.

The move to cut per vote funding doesn’t just impoverish some of our major parties, it impoverishes our democracy. In Canada, no single party is allowed to set geographical boundaries to give themselves an electoral advantage. In order to avoid something called “gerrymandering,” electoral boundaries are set by an arms-length body. In the same way, no single party should be allowed to reconfigure election financing to their own benefit as the Conservatives are doing. Fundamentally, it’s a form of financial gerrymandering —redrawing the financing boundaries to give themselves the upper hand. These key decisions around electoral financing need to be made either by all-party consensus or by an arms-length organization.

We need to ask ourselves if we want public subsidies triggered by fewer than one per cent of partisan donors, or equitably and democratically through the per vote subsidy. Canadians need to digest and consider the issues and make their views known to their MPs. The Conservative majority will push through this change.

A court challenge may be Canadians’ only option to confront this financial gerrymandering.


----------



## Macfury

Cut all of the political subsidies one at a time--beginning with the per-vote subsidy.


----------



## groovetube

I would far rather Harper and co slashes the golden pensions starting with who is siting now.


----------



## Macfury

Another good idea.


----------



## groovetube

but they'll never touch it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> but they'll never touch it.


I doubt they will. Public service is now a sweet long-term career, not a brief time away from private life.


----------



## groovetube

I have no illusions about them not touching such a big pot of gold either, they'd rather go for ways to neutralize the opposition and pass that off to the hapless voter who thinks they're doing it to save money.

LOL


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I have no illusions about them not touching such a big pot of gold either, they'd rather go for ways to neutralize the opposition and pass that off to the hapless voter who thinks they're doing it to save money.
> 
> LOL


Each successive government has failed to eliminate golden pensions.


----------



## groovetube

oh I see that's the excuse.


----------



## Macfury

I forgot how important these issues were for you while other parties were in power. Oh wait...

Those grapes must still be tasting quote sour.


----------



## groovetube

you forgot because you never knew.

It must smart to watch a party you so dearly favoured laugh in your face while ripping all those tax dollars out of your pocket. Enjoy your "freedom"

ha ha.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you forgot because you never knew.
> 
> It must smart to watch a party you so dearly favoured laugh in your face while ripping all those tax dollars out of your pocket. Enjoy your "freedom"
> 
> ha ha.


I will. Much more freedom than what Ignatieff was offering, and definitely superior to what the hacks from the New Democratic (belle) Province were offering, so I'm happy with my choice.


----------



## groovetube

much more freedom?

ha ha ha ha. Sure.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Cut all of the political subsidies one at a time--beginning with the per-vote subsidy.


do you honestly think that's what Harper is planning on doing?

lol


----------



## groovetube

hook, line, and sinker.

And he laughs at anyone who believes one of the other parties. 

lol indeed.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> do you honestly think that's what Harper is planning on doing?


No I don't. Neither is anyone else.


----------



## groovetube

at some point it just has to dawn on him.

Maybe not though.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> No I don't. Neither is anyone else.


But no one else wants to eliminate *JUST* the per vote subsidy.

you don't see how eliminating the per vote subsidy, yet still keeping the other subsidies creates a situation where the conservatives benefit more than the other parties?


----------



## groovetube

thats ok cause the other apparently did it too.

er wait, they brought it in which helped them. The other guy too.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> But no one else wants to eliminate *JUST* the per vote subsidy.
> 
> you don't see how eliminating the per vote subsidy, yet still keeping the other subsidies creates a situation where the conservatives benefit more than the other parties?


I don't see it that way. The original per vote subsidy was put into place to help the Liberals, who are notoriously bad at raising money. It was designed to help the Liberals over the Conservatives. As the last subsidy to be put into place, I think it's fair that it be the first to go, re-setting the clock backward a few years.


----------



## groovetube

sure. it's far better to have political parties spend more of their time fund raising, then to have direct subsidy based on voter support.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> sure. it's far better to have political parties spend more of their time fund raising, then to have direct subsidy based on voter support.


Yes, it is. They're not charities, you know. They're self-interested organizations promoting their own goals.


----------



## groovetube

I see. They don't represent the voters that supported them in the election, they represent themselves and their own interests.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I see. They don't represent the voters that supported them in the election, they represent themselves and their own interests.


Yes, and they seek support from voters to put them into power.


----------



## groovetube

So what you're really saying is, conservatives wish to spend a great deal of their time on our dime fund raising the same voters the per vote subsidy covered.

Which I bet costs a real pile of money. This is the whole "freedom" thing you aspire to.


----------



## i-rui

You only have to look south of the border to see what happens when politicians are more concerned with fund raising instead of actually running their country.


----------



## groovetube

no no no. You see you can't look south because it doesn't count. Just because macfury suggests almost verbatim what is clearly failing miserably south of the border doesn't automatically mean it'll fail here too.


----------



## Macfury

Why not send them $100 per vote so the could REALLY get on with the business of serving the country. Sheesh! If a voter is unispired to send them a toonie, then the party is not very important to them. The notion that most people who vote for a party want them to have even a penny out of their pocket is laughable.


----------



## groovetube

now why would you do that?

You can't just stamp your feet and make up ridiculous scenarios and expect that to be a credible point. As far as notions are concerned, you seem to have a few laughable ones yourself.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> now why would you do that?
> 
> You can't just stamp your feet and make up ridiculous scenarios and expect that to be a credible point. As far as notions are concerned, you seem to have a few laughable ones yourself.


It will be moot point in a couple of weeks. Your vote subsidy will slowly be ebbing out of existence. Oh the trials that await the parties as they have to appeal to the grassroots for money--instead of shaking them down for it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It will be moot point in a couple of weeks. Your vote subsidy will slowly be ebbing out of existence. Oh the trials that await the parties as they have to appeal to the grassroots for money--instead of shaking them down for it.


How about paying voters to vote??? After all, Senators that show up to work get an additional subsidy every day they come to work and attend committee meetings or meet with various people from their province. :greedy: That would be great for those of us taxpayers who show up for work every day to put in an honest day of work for an honest day of pay.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It will be moot point in a couple of weeks. Your vote subsidy will slowly be ebbing out of existence. Oh the trials that await the parties as they have to appeal to the grassroots for money--instead of shaking them down for it.


sure it's a done deal. I have no doubt all of the parties will adapt to the removal of the vote subsidies, we're simply going back to the days when parties spent a great deal more of their time (on our dime) "shaking down" voters for donations. How anyone sees this as progress is a mystery. In particular, those interested in more efficient government.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> How about paying voters to vote??? After all, Senators that show up to work get an additional subsidy every day they come to work and attend committee meetings or meet with various people from their province. :greedy: That would be great for those of us taxpayers who show up for work every day to put in an honest day of work for an honest day of pay.


On a serious note, I'm never very concerned about people who don't want to vote being enticed to do so. I would rather they stayed home on election day.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> sure it's a done deal. I have no doubt all of the parties will adapt to the removal of the vote subsidies, we're simply going back to the days when parties spent a great deal more of their time (on our dime) "shaking down" voters for donations. How anyone sees this as progress is a mystery. In particular, those interested in more efficient government.


That's right 'groove, because they need to spend more time doing good works, eh?

Given money for nothing they do more good things for the citizens.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> On a serious note, I'm never very concerned about people who don't want to vote being enticed to do so. I would rather they stayed home on election day.


In all honesty, we are in agreement here. Of course, I would rather see the bonus stipend being paid to Senators also stopped, since they are already being paid to work. I see no reason why they should be given an extra bonus just to show for this work.  tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> In all honesty, we are in agreement here. Of course, I would rather see the bonus stipend being paid to Senators also stopped, since they are already being paid to work. I see no reason why they should be given an extra bonus just to show for this work.  tptptptp


Agreed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Agreed.


And so shall start the rumors once again that we are long lost brothers. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That's right 'groove, because they need to spend more time doing good works, eh?
> 
> Given money for nothing they do more good things for the citizens.


I donno, you voted for them with great fanfare.

feelin a little had already?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I donno, you voted for them with great fanfare.
> 
> feelin a little had already?


I was happy to see them leave the Libs and NDP in the dust. No, I don't feel had at all. I feel they're doing about what I expected so I'm quite satisfied.


----------



## groovetube

lowered expectations.

I can dig it. I guess. lol.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> lowered expectations.
> 
> I can dig it. I guess. lol.


No, my expectations haven't lowered. However, none of the parties offered me largely what I wanted--just that the Libs and NDP offered me nothing,


----------



## groovetube

you just admitted to it a couple posts back. The cynicism was huge.

make up your mind!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you just admitted to it a couple posts back. The cynicism was huge.
> 
> make up your mind!


I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That's right 'groove, because they need to spend more time doing good works, eh?
> 
> Given money for nothing they do more good things for the citizens.


sounds pretty cynical to me.

ha ha.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> sounds pretty cynical to me.
> 
> ha ha.


Yes. I'm cynical about all the available parties. The Conservatives will do the least harm.


----------



## groovetube

by growing government bigger than the liberals and spending way more? That less damage?

ha ha ha. Yeah that's something to stand up for! 

I can see why you would be so cynical.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> by growing government bigger than the liberals and spending way more? That less damage?
> 
> ha ha ha. Yeah that's something to stand up for!
> 
> I can see why you would be so cynical.


They all grow bigger than the previous governments.


----------



## groovetube

funny how the tune changes so quick.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> They all grow bigger than the previous governments.


Harper has gown a couple and is starting to show his secret agenda.



Macfury said:


> Yes. I'm cynical about all the available parties. The Conservatives will do the least harm.


..."harm" a word connected to each individual's point of view. I can agree with MF a Conservative Government is harmful.


----------



## screature

Stephen Harper continues to outstrip rival party leaders in popular support 
Globe and Mail



> ...Not being in the media spotlight day after day, as he was during the election campaign, has contributed to a slide in how Canadians view NDP Leader Jack Layton’s leadership skills.
> 
> And having Bob Rae take over the reigns as Liberal Leader hasn’t done anything for Grit party fortunes.
> 
> The poll, released Monday and conducted by Nanos Research, shows that just a few weeks after the May 2 general election, the Prime Minister and his Conservatives have 41.8-per-cent support compared to 28 per cent for Mr. Layton and the NDP – a 14-point lead...
> 
> The Liberals are at 22.3 per cent, the Green Party, with its sole MP Elizabeth May, is at 3.7 per cent and the Bloc has 3.4-per-cent support nationally.
> 
> In addition, the Prime Minister’s leadership indicators are strong.
> 
> Mr. Harper is leading his opponents when it comes to issues of trust, competence and vision for Canada – 32.3 per cent, 38.5 per cent and 33.7 per cent, respectively, compared to 29.4, 24.1 and 28.4 for Mr. Layton.
> 
> Mr. Rae, who was appointed interim Liberal Leader only a month ago, registers with an 8.4-per-cent score on trust, 10.4 per cent on competence and 8.5 per cent on vision for Canada.
> 
> Mr. Layton, meanwhile, has dropped about five points in each of those categories since the election.


----------



## Macfury

As expected, screature--BigDL's typical mumbling meanderings and malapropisms notwithstanding.


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau was rather popular, as was Chretien I hear. If we're using popularity as some sort of measure of great leadership abilities.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Stephen Harper continues to outstrip rival party leaders in popular support
> Globe and Mail





> The bottom line, however, is the strong relationship between Canadians and the Tories. “Summertime is a good time to have a honeymoon,” Mr. Nanos said, especially for government.
> 
> “*People aren’t paying attention*. Usually an incumbent government does better when the House is not sitting … all to the advantage of Stephen Harper and the Conservatives,” he said.


bold part is canadian politics in a nutshell.


----------



## groovetube

while in other news...
RCMP probing allegations gov't misappropriated funds - CTV News

Man if it were the liberals, the screaming of "CRIMINALS!!!!" would be just.... deafening.

oh but it's ok cause Harper is popular right now.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> while in other news...
> RCMP probing allegations gov't misappropriated funds - CTV News
> 
> Man if it were the liberals, the screaming of "CRIMINALS!!!!" would be just.... deafening.
> 
> oh but it's ok cause Harper is popular right now.


I glad to see Tony Clement is invoking his right to remain silent, even in the House of Commons, where what he says can't used in court.

Apparently, according to the questions asked during question period, in Parliament he hides under his desk. :baby:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Man if it were the liberals, the screaming of "CRIMINALS!!!!" would be just.... deafening.
> 
> oh but it's ok cause Harper is popular right now.


Let me correct that for you.



groovytuba said:


> I would hope that when the Liberals are in trouble some time in the future, people will scream as hard as I'm screaming right now. In the meantime, I have no proof that such screaming has occurred in the past.


----------



## groovetube

listen mr sour grapes man. I stopped supporting the liberals when the news of mis spent tax dollars came out, and never went back.

The fact that the liberals were nearly wiped out and removed even as official opposition, makes your post hilarious.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I glad to see Tony Clement is invoking his right to remain silent, even in the House of Commons, where what he says can't used in court.
> 
> Apparently, according to the questions asked during question period, in Parliament he hides under his desk. :baby:


clement to Canadians: yeah like whattaya gonna do? fire me?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Harper is popular so go stick it.


----------



## MacDoc

Right schedule - shades of Mikey Harris....



> “One of Canada’s largest Crown corporations is slated to be sold off in a single-bidder deal conducted in total secrecy,” natural resources critic Nathan Cullen said in a statement. “Canadians are rightly worried about getting their money’s worth.”


Dwight Duncan on Ottawa’s AECL deal: ‘What are they going to do for Ontario?’ - The Globe and Mail

Harper et al are such dolts.......


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Right schedule - shades of Mikey Harris....


AECL has been on the brink for decades. They can only sell reactors if the price is heavily subsidized--and if we finance the sale with subsidized loans. This sale is long overdue.

They can't even sell their current offering in Ontario.


----------



## MacDoc

move on move on .....no agenda here.....



> *Flaherty to cultural institutions: Annual funding? Don’t count on it*
> Michael Oliveira
> TORONTO — The Canadian Press
> Published Tuesday, Jun. 28, 2011 3:54PM EDT
> Last updated Tuesday, Jun. 28, 2011 6:31PM EDT


Flaherty to cultural institutions: Annual funding? Don’t count on it - The Globe and Mail

wonder when the same message goes to the corporate welfare wankers in the tar sands.....some real savings there........
and perhaps the Senate should be pitched the same message.....


----------



## FeXL

MacDoc said:


> wonder when the same message goes to the corporate welfare wankers in the tar sands


First, didn't yo momma ever teach you not to bite the hand that's feeding you?

Second, the only wankers out there are the ones who expect a federal handout year after year and those who narrowly see only one political agenda and not all the others...

Third, instead of your typical smarmy mouthed comment and dem old rollin' eyes, why don't you try to post something constructive? Perhaps an idea of your own? A solution to the problem? Something that's not negative all the time? Anything? C'mon, MacDoc, you seem like a bright boy. Must be something you can add to make this a conversation instead of a diatribe.

Bring it...


----------



## Aurora

+1


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> First, didn't yo momma ever teach you not to bite the hand that's feeding you?
> 
> Second, the only wankers out there are the ones who expect a federal handout year after year and those who narrowly see only one political agenda and not all the others...
> 
> Third, instead of your typical smarmy mouthed comment and dem old rollin' eyes, why don't you try to post something constructive? Perhaps an idea of your own? A solution to the problem? Something that's not negative all the time? Anything? C'mon, MacDoc, you seem like a bright boy. Must be something you can add to make this a conversation instead of a diatribe.
> 
> Bring it...


feeding us?

pffft.

Here in Toronto it seems we're doing a hell of a lot of feeding. Have been for a pretty long time.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> move on move on .....no agenda here.....
> 
> 
> Flaherty to cultural institutions: Annual funding? Don’t count on it - The Globe and Mail


The point is that nobody can _count _on an annual handout--not that they won't get one if they make a case for it.

But I always find it troubling that people who for example, get angry over accelerated depreciation allowances on oil equipment seem perfectly happy to enjoy, and promote oh... accelerated depreciation on computer equipment, for example.

I also love the way that cultural institutions count on the fiction of the "multiplier effect" to show how they create a gazillion jobs for every buck you send them. Meanwhile the oil sands are creating real jobs and the export of Alberta resources is saving Canada's economic ass. 

Please let this Ontarian take this opportunity to thank the province of Alberta for its hard work and remaining the true engine of the country's economic wellbeing. You're continually treated like dirt by many in the east, and I apologize for their bad manners.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The point is that nobody can _count _on an annual handout--not that they won't get one if they make a case for it.


you make it sound like the conservatives are doin the right thing and only spendin where things, wull...they need fundin y'know cause it's the right thing and they deserve it?

ha ha. You've been had.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you make it sound like the conservatives are doin the right thing and only spendin where things, wull...they need fundin y'know cause it's the right thing and they deserve it?
> 
> ha ha. You've been had.


I know what they are doing and I have not been had.


----------



## MacDoc

Same old shiite......protect the corporate welfare bums in Alberta from the science



> Tor*y axe hits ‘muscle and bone’ of climate science, Elizabeth May says*
> JANE TABER
> OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
> Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:44AM EDT
> 
> Green Party Leader Elizabeth May is accusing Stephen Harper of letting ideology dictate job cuts to climate scientists at Environment Canada. And she is calling on Environment Minister Peter Kent to reverse them.
> 
> “What is clear to me is that the cuts are not in fat,” Ms. May said. “This is cuts into muscle and bone.”


meanwhile



> Sunday, 17 April 2011
> No. 34*: Harper's subsidies to tar sands companies larger than entire Environment Canada budget*
> More of our money is going to subsidize oil companies’ destruction in the tar sands than there is in the combined 2008 budgets of Environment Canada ($1.12 billion) and Alberta Environment ($403 million


dino indeed.....destructive one no less



> Newly appointed Environment Minister Peter Kent says Canada has been taking it on the chin over environmental issues unfairly, but nevertheless *will introduce new regulations aimed at beefing up the country's response to climate change*.


Kent vows to polish Canada's environmental image - CTV News


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> Same old shiite......protect the corporate welfare bums in Alberta from the science


Anyone who expected anything different is naive. Why do you think corporations buy politicians in the first place? The oil industry has been shovelling money at Harper, et al. for decades... now it's time to start reaping some of that investment.

The only question in my mind is how much the legal system will be able to slow them down.


----------



## Macfury

I'm an opponent of all corporate welfare, so I want to see it all ended--arts funding and oil sands alike. However, if I was forced to choose, I'd keep the oil sands rolling until the rest of Canada gets its thumb out of its ass and decides how it wants to contribute to a thriving economy.

These oddball comparisons of various costs to the environment budget are meaningless. There are all sorts of costs that exceed the environment budget. Seniors sucked up 29 billion dollars of federal government money--horrors, that's 20 times the environment budget!!


----------



## groovetube

"I'm against all welfare of ANY sort!! , well, all except all the warehouses of money shovelled at the big oil companies!"

yeah this is a consistent, credible position. Sure.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> "I'm against all welfare of ANY sort!! , well, all except all the warehouses of money shovelled at the big oil companies!"
> 
> yeah this is a consistent, credible position. Sure.


I'd say that post was a nice try--but it it wasn't.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Anyone who expected anything different is naive. Why do you think corporations buy politicians in the first place? * The oil industry has been shovelling money at Harper, et al. for decades...* now it's time to start reaping some of that investment.
> 
> The only question in my mind is how much the legal system will be able to slow them down.


Uhhmm I think you need to look at how long they have been in power.... decades???


----------



## groovetube

that may be why the "et al".


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I'd say that post was a nice try--but it it wasn't.


a little too glaringly obvious. Sorry 'bout that.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> that may be why the "et al".


et al would have to go back to Mulroney.... there were these guys called Chretien and Martin in between....


----------



## groovetube

this is true.


----------



## groovetube

Canada’s youth crime plans bewilder international observers - The Globe and Mail

regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum (or maybe not so... regardless... ) you have to scratch your head about this one. But then the Harper government hasn't been much for sanity previously, why start now?


----------



## BigDL

Harper is right he has to be, otherwise the 905 voters were wrong.


----------



## groovetube

hmmm.

Now there, is a conundrum.


----------



## i-rui

Prison costs soar 86% in past five years: report | News | National Post

ideology trumping fiscal responsibility (and those costs will only get worse. much worse)

....sigh....


----------



## groovetube

this whole fiscal responsibility stuff? Total BS.

The conservatives have spent more than anyone and will continue to spend like drunken fools while telling everyone a story they want to hear.

But apparently someone else -woulda- -coulda- spent more. That's the response you'll get.


----------



## groovetube

conservatives now are just crapping their pants and shrieking because of the newly released stats showing crime is lower than the past 40 years.

I saw a bit on SunTv with one of them ranting that it's because no one is reporting their crimes!

I see so the incidence of not reporting crimes is now way up from before. Idiot.

So, what to do with a whole platform of put the bad guys in jail and spend billions we don't have on superjails. Man those conservatives shooore do know how to spend it and have people support it too!


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> conservatives now are just crapping their pants and shrieking because of the newly released stats showing crime is lower than the past 40 years.
> 
> I saw a bit on SunTv with one of them ranting that it's because no one is reporting their crimes!
> 
> I see so the incidence of not reporting crimes is now way up from before. Idiot.
> 
> So, what to do with a whole platform of put the bad guys in jail and spend billions we don't have on superjails. Man those conservatives shooore do know how to spend it and have people support it too!


You can't trust science! You can't trust statistics! You can't trust journalists! 

You can only trust FUD.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I saw a bit on SunTv with one of them ranting that it's because no one is reporting their crimes!


You must be the only person in town watching SunTV! I haven't seen a single second of it.


----------



## groovetube

It's good for a 5 minute chuckle. You're always guaranteed at least one clown making a fool of himself.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tories judge evidence of falling rates inadmissible*



> The average citizen, especially those who favour the Conservative Party, is told by political leaders that crime is on the rise, and needs to be fought with a bevy of harsh new measures. Then they watch the television news, where “if it bleeds, it leads” dominates local coverage. Then they turn to the tabloid press, or tabloid elements in the so-called serious newspapers, to read endless stories about crime. No wonder some people believe a crime wave is washing over Canada.





> This week, Statscan told us that, happily, Canada’s overall crime rate is now the lowest since 1973, and the homicide rate the lowest since 1966.





> These findings don’t matter for the Conservatives. They’re convinced that, for their supporters, the perception exists that crime is rising, or at least is being fought with inadequate measures. Crime is a hot-button issue for the faithful, and one that can be conveniently pushed when the party needs to raise money – because, don’t forget, the other parties are “soft on crime.”


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## kps

Demographics behind drop in crime, expert says - Canada - TheChronicleHerald.ca



> But academics say the debate in Ottawa has everything to do with politics and nothing to do with reality, since the rates of crime and incarceration are not actually connected.
> 
> So what’s behind the drop? The experts point the finger at shifting demographics.
> 
> Their theory goes like this: the number of young people is shrinking. Younger people tend to commit more crimes than older people. So if there are fewer younger people, it follows there will also be less crime.


----------



## groovetube

ahhhhh! Demmmmoooooo-GRAPHICS!

First the guy on sunTv almost shouting that it's because people don't report these crimes! And we have to stop this!

Now it's demographics. 

So what hapopens when the average Canadian, discovers their taxes didn't go down as much as the super rich guys, the government spent even more money than the last guys and taxes has to go up to pay for it (and the rich guys won't budge, juuuuuust like the US right now....) -and-...

Crime is actually going down, so spending billions and billions of dollars on superjails (there's that big SPENDING thing again!) and using this crime thing as the big sopbox to get elected...

My. Isn't the swing to conservatism great?


----------



## Macfury

What does the issue we're discussing--crime and prisons--have to do with the "super rich guys" and the U.S.?


----------



## groovetube

the far right is befuddled with the idea that this whole crime thing and superjails, _actually costs money!!!_


tax cuts!!! TAX CUTS!!!! Spend more!!! TAX CUTS!!!!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> the far right is befuddled with the idea that this whole crime thing and superjails, _actually costs money!!!_
> 
> 
> tax cuts!!! TAX CUTS!!!! Spend more!!! TAX CUTS!!!!


You'll run out of exclamation marks if you don't stop emoting so much.


----------



## groovetube

apparently it's needed since even the very obvious confuses you macfury.

-why- are people talking about rich people and spending money mommy?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> -why- are people talking about rich people and spending money mommy?


I'm not your mommy--but I haven't noticed a huge outcry over spending in Canada, or of "rich people" worried about a tax increase. Most Conservative voters are both relieved and satisfied at this point the the Liberal spending promises were not enacted.


----------



## i-rui

does it matter *why* the crime rate continues to go down? who cares. the point is it's going down and Harper wants to stick *more* people in jail, and that will cost everyone *more* money. money that could be spent on *more* important things.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I'm not your mommy--but I haven't noticed a huge outcry over spending in Canada, or of "rich people" worried about a tax increase. Most Conservative voters are both relieved and satisfied at this point the the Liberal spending promises were not enacted.


still living in a dream world? I suppose you're satisfied that daddy Harper killed the boogeyman under your bed!!

The facts are in! The conservatives have spent more than anyone in history, and they also, like to throw millions and billions around in thankyou money, and photo ops.

Look! Shiny ball! OH MY GOD! A boogeyman!!! Arrrrggghhhhh!

run macfury. Run.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> The facts are in! The conservatives have spent more than anyone in history, and they also, like to throw millions and billions around in thankyou money, and photo ops.


The facts are in: each successive government spends more than the previous one. Social programs account for most of that. You could point to almost any year in Canadian history--barring world War II--and make the same alarming discovery.


----------



## groovetube

oooohhh. The excuses rain in.

Here I thought it was the liberals who spend more. Now it's... "each successive government"....

Look out there's a liberal under yer bed!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> oooohhh. The excuses rain in.
> 
> Here I thought it was the liberals who spend more. Now it's... "each successive government"....
> 
> Look out there's a liberal under yer bed!


Can you tell me honestly that you thought the Conservatives were running on a platform that would see spending cuts in current dollars the moment they were elected?

In the real world, voters understood how much the Conservatives promised to spend and how much the Liberals promised to spend--and they chose the lesser amount. 

I seriously doubt there's a Liberal under my bed--not enough of them to go around anymore.


----------



## groovetube

yes. Because that's what they promised.

There was no mention of spending stupidly like they have.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> yes. Because that's what they promised.


Do a little work. Show us the promise to enact immediate spending cuts in real dollars.. "Goo-gle" it.


----------



## groovetube

oh macfury. You'll to play the google game with someone else.

The truth is, they lied. They lied that they were better money managers, and they have after 5 years, shown they are just as capable of blowing millions and millions incompetently as the previous governments.

Did Huntsville send you a note of thanks for all that cash?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> oh macfury. You'll to play the google game with someone else.


I thought so. 

If you can't back up the most basic of your contentions, you're wasting my time. It's the end of the discussion.


----------



## groovetube

hey if it don't say it on the internets, macfury ain't buyin it.


----------



## mrjimmy

A little something from The Hamilton Spectator this morning. Nothing new coming to light just more people spreading the good word about the nonsense coming from our Conservative friends.

With all this fact denying they've taking a liking to, no wonder they scrapped the mandatory long form census. Just more facts goshdarnit!



> There’s a problem here, of course, since the majority of these tough-on-crime measures aren’t based on any factual evidence. But Harper and Hudak don’t seem to mind that, and if the outcome of the federal election is any indication, many Canadians don’t care either. But we should care. Public policy should be evidence-based, not based on visceral fear, especially since that policy drives decision making and public investment. The truth is these bogus tough-on-crime platforms are tougher on our wallets than they are on crime.


----------



## CubaMark

Somebody's gotta be greasing some palms somewhere. I mean, the Conservatives -if they had a clue- should be shouting from the rooftops that "our law enforcement and crime reduction strategies over the past 10 years have been effective in reducing crime", and use that as a justification for continuing their "tough on crime" policies - that would likely fool most uncritical observers. That they have taken the "unreported crime" angle - _laughable_ - shows their inability to manage a relatively simple issue.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Somebody's gotta be greasing some palms somewhere. I mean, the Conservatives -if they had a clue- should be shouting from the rooftops that "our law enforcement and crime reduction strategies over the past 10 years have been effective in reducing crime", and use that as a justification for continuing their "tough on crime" policies - that would likely fool most uncritical observers. That they have taken the "unreported crime" angle - _laughable_ - shows their inability to manage a relatively simple issue.


The crime report here in NL says that our violent crimes have "spiked" to the highest percentage increase in the country (we went from 0 violent killings to 2 last year). However, our request for funding to refurbish our old prison or to build a new facility was turned down by the Conservative government.


----------



## SINC

Glad to haer things are so crime free in other parts of the country:

Edmonton police investigate suspicious death

*Death in northeast neighbourhood may be city’s 30th homicide of 2011*

Edmonton police investigate suspicious death


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> Glad to haer things are so crime free in other parts of the country:
> 
> Edmonton police investigate suspicious death
> 
> *Death in northeast neighbourhood may be city’s 30th homicide of 2011*
> 
> Edmonton police investigate suspicious death


Yee Haw! Ride Herd! Yaw'll know what's good for Alberta is good for the rest of the country. Yippie yi yeay Y'all.


----------



## CubaMark

Putting that in context, SINC, Edmonton's homicide rate is lower now than it has been in some time - and much lower than a spike about six years ago:










Some interesting reading here:

Edmonton’s Homicide Rate: How much has changed in 30 years? - MasterMaq's Blog


----------



## jimbotelecom

CubaMark said:


> Putting that in context, SINC, Edmonton's homicide rate is lower now than it has been in some time - and much lower than a spike about six years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting reading here:
> 
> Edmonton’s Homicide Rate: How much has changed in 30 years? - MasterMaq's Blog


C'mon now amigo, what about all that there unreported crime. Y'all come back now, hear?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Somebody's gotta be greasing some palms somewhere. I mean, the Conservatives -if they had a clue- should be shouting from the rooftops that "our law enforcement and crime reduction strategies over the past 10 years have been effective in reducing crime", and use that as a justification for continuing their "tough on crime" policies - that would likely fool most uncritical observers. That they have taken the "unreported crime" angle - _laughable_ - shows their inability to manage a relatively simple issue.


Good post CM. The Conservatives handling of the communications of the issue is abysmal.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Good post CM. The Conservatives handling of the communications of the issue is abysmal.


Agreed.

Though I suspect an inane comment to follow immediately after I make this post.


----------



## groovetube

Indeed. If they want to fleece us of billions for their boondoggles, they're gonna have to get much smarter and use the fear angle more effectively.


----------



## screature

Budumpbump... tisssh.


----------



## groovetube

One too many bumps....


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> One too many bumps....


Only one bump, the first was a dump...


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Indeed. If they want to fleece us of billions for their boondoggles, they're gonna have to get much smarter and use the fear angle more effectively.


Or a different angle altogether...like the Liberals would. lol

Here's how the Libs would sell it:

All of our federal prisons are well over a 100 years old, they're inefficient, costly, and have conditions which make for cruel and unusual punishment for the inmates...we must modernize and build new more efficient prisons in order to be more humane to the incarcerated. These new modern super-prisons will actually save large amounts of money in the longterm and will pay for themselves in 5 years.


----------



## groovetube

well Phew! Thank god for progress!


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> Or a different angle altogether...like the Liberals would. lol
> 
> Here's how the Libs would sell it:
> 
> All of our federal prisons are well over a 100 years old, they're inefficient, costly, and have conditions which make for cruel and unusual punishment for the inmates...we must modernize and build new more efficient prisons in order to be more humane to the incarcerated. These new modern super-prisons will actually save large amounts of money in the longterm and will pay for themselves in 5 years.


Yuk yuk yuk kps....they wouldn't bother saying anything about being more humane, instead they would point out that the combination of solar panels, wind power, thermal energy, will create more efficient prisons and pay for themselves in 20 years.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Yuk yuk yuk kps....they wouldn't bother saying anything about being more humane, instead they would point out that the combination of solar panels, wind power, thermal energy, will create more efficient prisons and pay for themselves in 20 years.


Perfect...that would get the Greens and the NDP on board.


----------



## groovetube

Well if we could all of them on board with wasting billions of dollars, then we would truly, have a real democracy.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> Well if we could all of them on board with wasting billions of dollars, then we would truly, have a real democracy.


No we would have a real majority.


----------



## Macfury

Rookie New Democrat MP Nycole Turmel as interim leader? Odd choice.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Rookie New Democrat MP Nycole Turmel as interim leader? Odd choice.


Former Union leader, from Quebec, defeated longstanding Liberal MP and blessed by Jack... not so odd, really.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Former Union leader, from Quebec, defeated longstanding Liberal MP and blessed by Jack... not so odd, really.


I agree. I am hoping that Jack will be able to return as the leader of the NDP. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

yes, not so odd in my books either.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Former Union leader, from Quebec, defeated longstanding Liberal MP and blessed by Jack... not so odd, really.


I'm surprised she was blessed by Jack, not that the party complied. Why put a rookie in such a difficult and precarious position?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I'm surprised she was blessed by Jack, not that the party complied. Why put a rookie in such a difficult and precarious position?


I'm sure Jack thinks (wants to believe?) that this is only for the summer. 

Politically, I think they had to put someone from Quebec in charge... that's a lot of rookies to choose from.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Why put a rookie in such a difficult and precarious position?


i think the idea was to put someone with no future leadership aspirations so it was clear that she would *just* be an interim leader.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i think the idea was to put someone with no future leadership aspirations so it was clear that she would *just* be an interim leader.


Even Bob Rae has some experience in a leadership position, despite the fact that he has no potential to rise beyond that level.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i think the idea was to put someone with no future leadership aspirations so it was clear that she would *just* be an interim leader.


That is what I have been reading was the strategy in place. 

She is a skilled negotiator and as such will most likely be open to listening to the views of the different camps within the party and try to build consensus and not be a top down leader. I think she is there just to hold things together while Jack is away and not to rock the boat or make any drastic changes one way or the other. So as such I think she is actually a good choice a "caretaker" leader.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Even Bob Rae has some experience in a leadership position, despite the fact that he has no potential to rise beyond that level.



apples & oranges

the liberal interim leader might be there for years, and it's a party that is rebuilding.

the NDP is hoping this is just a very brief stint.


----------



## groovetube

why so much bluster over a (gassssspppp!) rookie mp as a 2 month interim leader for the opposition? Harper bestowed some real positions of responsibility to some rookie MPs didn't he?

Much ado about zip. Oh, right it's the NDP. 

ROOOOOOKIEEEE!!!!!!!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> why so much bluster over a (gassssspppp!) rookie mp as a 2 month interim leader for the opposition? Harper bestowed some real positions of responsibility to some rookie MPs didn't he?
> 
> Much ado about zip. Oh, right it's the NDP.
> 
> ROOOOOOKIEEEE!!!!!!!


I really don't see where there has been any bluster gt, just someone pointing out that they thought it was an odd choice and people expressing reasons why they agree or don't agree. No one mentioned anything about it being about the NDP vs. the Cons until your post. Seems your post in the only one that has any bluster to it in the discussion thus far.

I think you want the Pointless Arguing Thread for this kind of post...


----------



## Macfury

CTV British Columbia - Acting NDP leader held BQ membership in January - CTV News



> The New Democratic Party says its acting leader is "a federalist," despite the fact that she held a Bloc Quebecois membership as recently as January of this year.


----------



## groovetube

yeah I'd like to see Harper and co shriek about that lots.

Quebec numbers, even lower. Hang on tight to alberta ya'hear?


----------



## Macfury

CTV British Columbia - Acting NDP leader held ties to 2 sovereigntist parties - CTV News



> In a separate email, Belanger also confirmed that Turmel "has" been a member of Quebec solidaire, clarifying that the acting NDP leader's membership "has not lapsed yet but will not be renewed."


----------



## groovetube

Well, I guess it's only fair since we had to put up with the dumbflippery of the likes of Helena Guergis, Maxime Bernier, Bev Oda, Vic Toews, Gerry Ritz, Gary Lunn and Lisa Raitt.

Nothing to see there either.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Well, I guess it's only fair since we had to put up with the dumbflippery of the likes of Helena Guergis, Maxime Bernier, Bev Oda, Vic Toews, Gerry Ritz, Gary Lunn and Lisa Raitt.


"B-b-b-b-b-b-ut the Conservatives....!"

Nice flip-flop.


----------



## groovetube

b-b-b-b-but the conservatives indeed! The conservatives, are in power! And I just listed a bunch of -in power MPs- that committed some really questionable acts, such as leaving top secret documents involving our nations security for anyone to read, and you want to whine that someone held a membership in a legitimate political party in this country?

Be sure to double up on the sunscreen for them flip flops my friend.


----------



## mrjimmy

Who cares?

Harper was in the Reform Party. Now he's a _Conservative..._


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Who cares?
> 
> Harper was in the Reform Party. Now he's a _Conservative..._


Which one of those parties was the separatist party again?


----------



## groovetube

hmmm. Not sure which was the firewall around alberta, but if scratch my head again, maybe it'll come to me.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Who cares?
> 
> Harper was in the Reform Party. Now he's a _Conservative..._


It seems a lot of people care...

Nycole Turmel's baptism by fire
Don Martin: In the brutal world of leadership politics, as NDP MP Nycole Turmel is finding out, honeymoons can be measured in days before painful baptisms are performed with fire. The interim NDP leader had just four days of friendly introduction to Canadians before...

Turmel’s Bloc past badly wounds the NDP
Tim Harper: Nycole Turmel’s flirtation with sovereignty was not a secret. During last spring’s federal election campaign, the incumbent Liberal she easily toppled tried to exploit her separatist dalliance. But she is no longer merely the NDP MP for Hull-Aylmer and being...

Nycole Turmel and the NDP have some explaining to do
Globe: NDP interim leader Nycole Turmel is not the first Canadian politician to have changed her stripes, but the decision to invest a long-standing sovereigntist with the interim leadership of Canada's Official Opposition...

Turmel’s shaky start
TS: Inside Quebec there will no doubt be a collective what’s-the-big-deal shrug at the revelation that Nycole Turmel, interim leader of the federal NDP, was a member of the Bloc Québécois until last January.

Nycole Turmel throws NDP into turmoil
Sun Media: While Opposition Leader Jack Layton is fighting for his life, his anointed replacement leaves the NDP fighting for its credibility as a federalist alternative. His handpicking of Quebec rookie MP Nycole Turmel as his party's interim leader has left Layton some serious explaining to do.

Flirting with separatism
Cit: Revelations that interim NDP Leader and Hull-Aylmer MP Nycole Turmel was a member of the Bloc Québécois, in addition to the NDP, until mere months before the May 2 federal election, have raised further questions about her party's commitment to federalism.

NDP's Turmel owes Canadians an explanation
Gaz: Even though there seems no reason not to believe New Democratic Party interim leader Nycole Turmel when she says she was never a separatist, Turmel needs to explain to Canadians why she was a member of the separatist Bloc Québécois for more than four years...

Separatist shadow
Cal.Herald: Federal NDP leader keeps strange bedfellows. As a one-time cardcarrying member of two political parties that promote Quebec sovereignty, Nycole Turmel was not the smartest choice as interim leader of the federal NDP. Turmel signed up for membership in the...


----------



## Rps

Screature, you live in Quebec, don't you think this is a ploy by Jack to maintain a foothold on the Quebec base. I'm thinking the NDP were the protest vote and maybe the NDP has gotten a case of "Preston Manning Disease". That said, I'm not so sure this is a big deal. I'm wondering how many of us have moved from one party to another?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Screature, you live in Quebec, don't you think this is a ploy by Jack to maintain a foothold on the Quebec base. I'm thinking the NDP were the protest vote and maybe the NDP has gotten a case of "Preston Manning Disease". That said, I'm not so sure this is a big deal. I'm wondering how many of us have moved from one party to another?


The fact that she _hadn't moved _from one party before joining the other is probably the biggest issue here.


----------



## BigDL

Now some who never heard of Turmel, last week, think she is the greatest leader in the history of politics and political parties. EVER!

She will single handedly change the ND Party from a government in waiting into the divider of Canada in a mere 7 weeks as a Temp. 

Spin on good folks. Spin on!


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Screature, you live in Quebec, don't you think this is a ploy by Jack to maintain a foothold on the Quebec base. I'm thinking the NDP were the protest vote and maybe the NDP has gotten a case of "Preston Manning Disease". That said, I'm not so sure this is a big deal. I'm wondering how many of us have moved from one party to another?


Certainly if the other parties are hoping to damage the ndp over this, they might be disappointed. Gaining a foothold in Quebec, is a pretty serious trump card.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, you live in Quebec, *don't you think this is a ploy by Jack to maintain a foothold on the Quebec base*. I'm thinking the NDP were the protest vote and maybe the NDP has gotten a case of "Preston Manning Disease". That said, I'm not so sure this is a big deal. I'm wondering how many of us have moved from one party to another?


To a certain degree, but only because she is from Quebec not because of her past BQ affiliations which we don't even know for sure Jack was even aware of, if he was then I think it shows poor judgement and a potentially dangerous dalliance with the separatists. She also was a past president of PSAC so that plays well to the unionist members of the party.

What will be interesting if Jack doesn't come back in the fall will be to see how well she can defend herself in QP with the inevitable shots that will be thrown back at her regrading her very recent affiliations. What will also be interesting to see is how much questioning she will actually do and how much Thomas Mulcair may actually take the reins in QP.

It also isn't about moving from one party to another it is about a fundamental difference in how one views Canada and Quebec's place either within a unified Canada or as a separate country. It is not like simply shifting your allegiances from the libs to cons or the NDP as these are all federalist parties, so I don't think the comparison is as simple as that at all.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> She will single handedly change the ND Party from a government in waiting into the divider of Canada in a mere 7 weeks as a Temp.


A government in waiting? That's pretty strong stuff you're smoking, man!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Certainly if the other parties are hoping to damage the ndp over this, they might be disappointed. Gaining a foothold in Quebec, is a pretty serious trump card.


This will all fade away soon enough as even if Jack does not return the NDP will have to hold a leadership convention and pick a new leader and I doubt that Turmel would run and I can almost certainly say that even if she did she would not win the leadership.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> A government in waiting? That's pretty strong stuff you're smoking, man!


Not my thought but a consensus of some ie. a wiki wiki search turns up this thought


Wikipedia said:


> The Official Opposition is viewed as the caucus tasked with keeping the government in check. It is also generally viewed as the alternative government or "government in waiting". The Official Opposition maintains a shadow cabinet, with the Leader of the Official Opposition at its head, of Members of Parliament (MPs) and Senators who often have the same portfolios as actual ministers. The spokesperson for each portfolio is known as an opposition critics. Thus, in the event the government loses the confidence of the House or the Official Opposition party wins a general election, the party is ready to become the government.


and in 1993 the Bloc themselves were the Loyal Opposition to the government.


Wikipedia said:


> In 1993, the Reform Party challenged whether the Quebec sovereigntist Bloc Québécois could hold the position of official opposition. The Speaker ruled in favour of the Bloc, as they held two more seats than Reform. During the Bloc's time as the official opposition, Quebec issues on national unity dominated Question Period, often to the irritation of the other opposition parties (indeed, Reform was the only other caucus that met official party status, with the NDP and PC parties falling short of that threshold). However, Reform was considered to be main opposition to the Liberals on all other issues that were not specific to Quebec. In 1995, when Bloc leader Lucien Bouchard's position as Opposition Leader granted him a meeting with visiting US President Bill Clinton, Reform leader Preston Manning was also given a meeting with Clinton in order to diffuse Bouchard's separatist leverage.[4]


Wikipedia Link here

So Canada didn't fall apart in 1993 or since, fortunes change what goes up must come down spinning wheel got to go round. When you go to point out that the fortunes of the NDP can change so can the fortunes of the Conservatives.

It a slow news period these dog days, so the media especially the right winged pundits, got a present so don't get sucked in by their excitement.

Feel free to spin on if you must.


----------



## Macfury

I see. To me the term "government in waiting" indicated a chance at forming the next government, rather than a simple designation.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...It a slow news period these dog days, so the media *especially the right winged pundits*, got a present so don't get sucked in by their excitement.
> 
> Feel free to spin on if you must.


Didn't know that being a federalist made you right winged.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Didn't know that being a federalist made you right winged.


Apparently this whole story is of no interest to the Liberals or NDP.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Didn't know that being a federalist made you right winged.


So anyone who isn't outraged by this _isn't_ a federalist?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> So anyone who isn't outraged by this _isn't_ a federalist?


Pay no attention to that one screature. The pretzel logic is astonishing.


----------



## groovetube

I can understand how that might cause a short circuit with you, however I think screature can figure what I was asking and why.


----------



## groovetube

Harper questions NDP's commitment to country - CTV News

You really have to be soft in the head to fall for this crap.

Reality Check: Stephen Harper?s 2004 coalition letter

Well Gee Mr. Harper, that appears to be your name on this letter with the separatist leader. And given "we're not gonna recognize Canada when" you're done with it, I have some concerns also.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Didn't know that being a federalist made you right winged.


The Media got a present. Didn't know whether gift giving is a provincial or federal responsibility? Should we call a Royal Commission of Inquiry? Should we rely on those apparently operating the spinning wheels to keep this story going?

Remember many people are on vacation, most people are not focused on the mundane minutia of politics like the few jumping all over this hot news item. Many folks at this point may be focused on what to buy the kids for school especially the parents of babies born in 2006 but perhaps this is not focusing on federalism and federal issues enough for some.

Keep 'er going yer doing a lovely job of spinning.


----------



## Macfury

In fact I don't see how any of the reporting is spin. The interim leader of the federal NDP belonged to two separatist parties--and is still a member of one. What's the spin?


----------



## groovetube

of course you don't.


----------



## groovetube

Speaking of trinkets for the light headed, here's anther tidbit that amused me a little.

Wanted and unknown - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca

I had a chuckle at the last line:



> Concannon added he was puzzled that the Canadian government would label Prince a war criminal, given that “I don’t think there’s been a war in Haiti in a very long time.”


LOL. I suppose it's time for some damage control now that it has surfaced that the big tory crime and punishment agenda is facing the facts that crime has gone down.'

Talk about rebels without a cause.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> So anyone who isn't outraged by this _isn't_ a federalist?


Did I even imply that??? Outraged by what?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The Media got a present. Didn't know whether gift giving is a provincial or federal responsibility? Should we call a Royal Commission of Inquiry? Should we rely on those apparently operating the spinning wheels to *keep this story going*?
> 
> *Remember many people are on vacation, most people are not focused on the mundane minutia of politics like the few jumping all over this hot news item. Many folks at this point may be focused on what to buy the kids for school especially the parents of babies born in 2006 but perhaps this is not focusing on federalism and federal issues enough for some.*
> 
> Keep 'er going yer doing a lovely job of spinning.


It seems you are more than willing to keep things going...  

Uhhh... What exactly is your point...? 

People are on vacation so federalism and whether or not an interim leader of a federalist party is truly a federalist or just an opportunist shouldn't be an issue? Pretzel logic there my friend.

"Keep 'er going yer doing a lovely job of spinning."


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Speaking of trinkets for the light headed, here's anther tidbit that amused me a little.
> 
> Wanted and unknown - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca
> 
> I had a chuckle at the last line:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. I suppose it's time for some damage control now that it has surfaced that the big tory crime and punishment agenda is facing the facts that crime has gone down.'
> 
> Talk about rebels without a cause.


I wondered first thing "is this about getting Canadians to report on everyday people by calling them War Criminals."

Let's have a fake crisis to take people's attention off the Conservatives.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Did I even imply that??? Outraged by what?


it appeared that way to me. People are seemingly outraged that the interim leader of the NDP dared be a member of the bloc. It seems to me, that it is more those who lean towards the right who are most outraged by this, certainly Harper is now publicly chastising the new interim leader for having anything to do with the bloc (even though he himself got into bed with them in 2004...)

this line:


> Didn't know that being a federalist made you right winged.


Implied that those upset by this, are the federalists. I would suggest there are many 'federalists' who aren't bothered by this at all, and see this as a whole lot of huffing and puffing.


----------



## Macfury

screature: he's saying that the left is soft on separatism.


----------



## BigDL

You gotta love "My Life Is My Own" but everyone else must abide by the one point of view.


----------



## groovetube

Every once in a while macfury, you drop a doozy.

That one is far to funny to touch.


----------



## Macfury

.


groovetube said:


> People are seemingly outraged that the interim leader of the NDP dared be a member of the bloc. *It seems to me, that it is more those who lean towards the right who are most outraged by this*....


----------



## groovetube

perhaps this one's a creeper. Donno.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> it appeared that way to me. People are seemingly outraged that the interim leader of the NDP dared be a member of the bloc. It seems to me, that it is more those who lean towards the right who are most outraged by this, certainly Harper is now publicly chastising the new interim leader for having anything to do with the bloc (even though he himself got into bed with them in 2004...)
> 
> *this line:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't know that being a federalist made you right winged.
> 
> 
> 
> Implied that those upset by this, are the federalists. I would suggest there are many 'federalists' who aren't bothered by this at all, and see this as a whole lot of huffing and puffing.
Click to expand...

No it was in specific reference to the post by BigDl where he said:



> "_especially the right winged pundits_"


which implied that you had to be right winged to be concerned and not that you had to be a Federalist to be concerned...

Every major news outlet in the country regardless of political stripe had a comment on the subject and all universally negative.

The Cons didn't even research this issue to bring it to the public's attention, it was the media... the Cons just jumped on the opportunity presented (as did all the media)... would you expect otherwise regardless of the Federalist party in power? I mean really?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No it was in specific reference to the post by BigDl where he said:
> 
> "_especially the right winged pundits_"
> 
> When every major news outlet in the country regardless of political stripe had a comment on the subject and all universally negative.
> 
> The Cons didn't even research this issue to bring it to the public's attention, it was the media... the Cons just jumped on the opportunity presented (as did all the media)... would you expect otherwise regardless of the Federalist party in power? I mean really?


I think there's a difference between the media reporting something, as they generally do, and expressing what Harper has.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think there's a difference between the media reporting something, as they generally do, and expressing what Harper has.


Ok gt... you go grl...


----------



## groovetube

It's really very simple.

The media yells "the dog is jumping!", and then one political party stands up and denounces the dog for jumping. 

Hopefully, this clears things up a tad.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It's really very simple.
> 
> The media yells "the dog is jumping!", and then one political party stands up and denounces the dog for jumping.
> 
> Hopefully, this clears things up a tad.


So the NDP is full of separatists then? Didn't know that.


----------



## groovetube

Of course, the real sideshow on this, is while Harper pontificates about being totally like, committed to this country, he himself clearly said he wanted to build firewalls around Alberta.

Talk about a hypocrite. Oh right, NOW he's committed to the country. Right.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> It's really very simple.
> 
> The media yells "the dog is jumping!", and then one political party stands up and denounces the dog for jumping.
> 
> Hopefully, this clears things up a tad.


Watch it least ye be accused of being soft on dogs jumping up. Next you will be accused of "soft on bunnies."


----------



## groovetube

it seems as though that's pretty much the direction this is taking.

I did try however.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So the NDP is full of separatists then? Didn't know that.


Don't help him to dig himself any deeper.


----------



## MacDoc

nah - no agenda....


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> nah - no agenda....


What is the agenda?


----------



## whatiwant

MacDoc said:


> nah - no agenda....


Dumb and dumber?


----------



## BigDL

Watch out! Don't get all soft on agendas.


----------



## groovetube

no need to dig when it's soft.


----------



## Macfury

And the agenda?


----------



## groovetube

apparently, it's being soft on things. Or, hard.

I donno it seems it's a minefield. Careful.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I donno...


Thanks.


----------



## groovetube

goin for scraps I see?

well at least you're satisfied.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc, what was that agenda?


----------



## groovetube

you haven't gotten out of the why stage yet I see.

Well there's still time.


----------



## MacDoc

Too bad the ditzes in Ottawa don't get it.....




> A strong currency might sound like a validation of investor confidence in the performance of an economy. But for trade-dependent Japan and Switzerland,* a sudden jump in the value of their currencies can wreak havoc by making their exports uncompetitive*.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/business/global/japan-moves-to-weaken-the-yen.html?ref=global-home

but for trade dependent Canada Harper just puts Ontario and Quebec on the trash heap while coddling the ********** out west.



some countries actually run their economies.....then there is Canada - or Harpo's Folly as it's better described.


----------



## groovetube

firewall around alberta anyone?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Too bad the ditzes in Ottawa don't get it.....
> 
> but for trade dependent Canada Harper just puts Ontario and Quebec on the trash heap while coddling the ********** out west.
> 
> 
> 
> some countries actually run their economies.....then there is Canada - or Harpo's Folly as it's better described.


The value of a relatively free-floating currency is not the responsibility of the federal government, which can intervene if there's a perceived problem. Do you believe the federal government has deliberately inflated the value of the dollar to help "the **********" at the expense of Ontario and Quebec? (Those two provinces been doing a brilliant job building a lacklustre"green" recovery.)

The U.S. is devaluing its currency by printing too much of it. Is that what you advocate?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The U.S. is devaluing its currency by printing too much of it. Is that what you advocate?


i'd advocate :

a) stop giving the oil industry subsides.

b) start enforcing more rigorous environmental checks on the industry. The idea that Alberta is selling off their fresh water security for near term profits is insane. in 50 years fresh water may be a much more valuable asset than tar sands.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i'd advocate :
> 
> a) stop giving the oil industry subsides.
> 
> b) start enforcing more rigorous environmental checks on the industry. The idea that Alberta is selling off their fresh water security for near term profits is insane. in 50 years fresh water may be a much more valuable asset than tar sands.


Which subsidies--beyond traditional business write-offs--should be removed form the oil industry? And how will this affect the value of the dollar, which was MacDoc's original concern.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Which subsidies--beyond traditional business write-offs--should be removed form the oil industry? And how will this affect the value of the dollar, which was MacDoc's original concern.


these subsidies :

Oil sands get $3B in subsidies: Report

and eliminating that as well as strict environmental policing would cool down the entire oil industry and weaken the dollar.

it would be a matter of the government looking out for the entire country's well being, and also not let a limited few in Alberta write off much of their fresh water for short term profits.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> these subsidies :
> 
> Oil sands get $3B in subsidies: Report
> 
> and eliminating that as well as strict environmental policing would cool down the entire oil industry and weaken the dollar.
> 
> it would be a matter of the government looking out for the entire country's well being, and also not let a limited few in Alberta write off much of their fresh water for short term profits.


The numbers aren't clear regarding the tax breaks available to every company and those to the oil industry alone. It appears most of them are simply tax deductions for business costs, including research and development.

Do you support subsidies for "green energy" such as wind turbines? I

But essentially your argument is that we should reduce exports to weaken our dollar? That would result in what? An increase in exports because our dollar is weaker?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Do you support subsidies for "green energy" such as wind turbines?


Sure, because we need to start on alternative energy sources. At the very least we should invest an equal amount in green energy that we've already invested in the oil industry.



Macfury said:


> But essentially your argument is that we should reduce exports to weaken our dollar? That would result in what? An increase in exports because our dollar is weaker?


No. Essentially my argument is the government should be looking at the larger picture, not only for the country as a whole, but also for the future of Alberta.

The byproduct of that would happen to weaken our dollar, which might not be the worst thing for other provinces.


----------



## CubaMark

*...and now begins the gutting of Environment Canada (do Harper's Conservatives have the same contempt for EC that the Tea Partiers have for the EPA?)*

*700 Environment Canada jobs on the chopping block*



> Meteorologists, scientists, chemists and engineers are among more than 700 Environment Canada employees on the chopping block as the department launches sweeping cuts to cope with federal belt-tightening.
> 
> The shakeup could be a taste of further cuts in other departments to come as the Conservative government reins in spending to eliminate a $32 billion deficit.
> 
> The cuts represent 11 per cent of the workforce at Environment Canada, calling into question the department’s ability to carry on its mandate,...


(The Star)


----------



## SINC

Untouched for years, government departments have very likely bloated and are, oh say 10% or so too fat as government always is. An excellent move that should be carried out in all departments to thin down the bureaucracy to a more appropriate level, given the economy and the debt.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Sure, because we need to start on alternative energy sources. At the very least we should invest an equal amount in green energy that we've already invested in the oil industry.


I support no subsidies at all, beyond basic business tax deductions. It's disingenuous to support special tax breaks for any sector of the economy that are not available to others, simply on preference.



i-rui said:


> The byproduct of that would happen to weaken our dollar, which might not be the worst thing for other provinces.


That would increase inflation and make many goods more expensive to Canadians. 

Why not kill off other successful sectors of the economy as well, thus reducing the value of the dollar--for the good of Canada?. Killing exports to create exports isn't a viable plan. There IS a market for our natural resources--there is no guarantee that a weakened Canadian dollar would create a market for anything else we produce.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Untouched for years, government departments have very likely bloated and are, oh say 10% or so too fat as government always is. An excellent move that should be carried out in all departments to thin down the bureaucracy to a more appropriate level, given the economy and the debt.


Where in all that's good and holy did this number of 10% come from. Is that the current number being bandied about in the better coffee shops of Alberta? So it must be right?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I support no subsidies at all, beyond basic business tax deductions. It's disingenuous to support special tax breaks for any sector of the economy that are not available to others, simply on preference.
> 
> 
> 
> That would increase inflation and make many goods more expensive to Canadians.
> 
> Why not kill off other successful sectors of the economy as well, thus reducing the value of the dollar--for the good of Canada?. Killing exports to create exports isn't a viable plan. There IS a market for our natural resources--there is no guarantee that a weakened Canadian dollar would create a market for anything else we produce.


What's wrong with value added exports? So willing to sell raw materials as quickly as possible so sad really.


----------



## MacDoc

Close down the Environment Arm of Natural Resources.....

Lie to Europe....

bout right for Harpo.....












> *Canada's government has been engaged in an "unprecedented" lobbying campaign to stop the EU from adopting fuel standards that could hurt oil sands exports to Europe,* says a report from a European environmental group.
> 
> According to the report from Friends of the Earth Europe (PDF), Canadian diplomats and oil industry execs have held at least 110 meetings with European officials in the past two years in an effort to prevent the oil sands from being designated as a highly-polluting source of fuel.
> 
> The report also states that Canadian diplomats have tried to link free trade negotiations with the EU to the continent's emissions policies, in what FOEE described as "old fashioned strong-arm tactics."
> 
> "The Canadian government has undermined independent science, deliberately misled and done everything in its power to undermine and delay the [EU's] Fuel Quality Directive," Darek Urbaniak, FOEE's executive industries spokesman, said in a statement. "This is possibly the most vociferous public relations campaign by a foreign government ever witnessed in the EU and is reminiscent of the tobacco industry in its attempt to delay action on health."
> 
> The report comes as allies of Canada's oil industry step up efforts to reform the public image of the oil sands. Famed pundit and Sun News personality Ezra Levant recently tapped Alykhan Velshi, a former Conservative Party of Canada communications guru, to relaunch EthicalOil.org, a website that seeks to cast the oil sands as an ethical alternative to "conflict oil" -- oil purchased from Middle Eastern and war-torn countries.
> 
> *According to FOEE, Canadian diplomats in Europe have assembled an "Oil Sands Advocacy Team" that has worked to undermine European scientific research on emissions.*
> 
> Oil sands exports to Europe are virtually nil, but Canadian officials are worried that if Europe passes oil-quality regulations, it could spur similar legislation in the U.S., which is by far the largest oil sands importer, the Guardian reports.
> 
> Oil sands exports to Europe are virtually nil, but Canadian officials are worried that legislation regulating exports of oil to Europe , which is by far the largest purchaser of oil sands product, the Guardian reports.
> 
> "The Canadians have attacked their critics for being ill-informed and emotional, whilst saying they stick to the science and the facts. In reality, it is the Canadian government (in close collaboration with the oil industry) that continuously undermines the EU's independent scientific studies, even after they were peer-reviewed," the report stated.
> 
> _"*The Canadian government seems to use the same tactics as the tobacco industry that tried to keep the debate open about smoking."*_
> 
> The report also noted that Canada agreed to develop a plan to reduce carbon emission from the oil sands, "but back home they use completely different language, saying that they will not introduce greenhouse gas legislation that cuts investment."
> 
> The Globe and Mail reported in March that Canada has so far not acted on its declaration to the EU that it plans to implement a greenhouse-gas reduction plan for the oil industry.
> 
> Carbon emissions have become one of the largest sticking points in Canada-EU trade relations. Canada's airlines recently joined their U.S. counterparts in opposing an EU plan to have airlines participate in the continent's carbon trading plan.
> 
> That plan would see airlines buy permits for 15 per cent of their carbon emissions, and airlines would be required to reduce carbon emissions on annual basis. Airlines argue the plan would cost the industry $1.4 billion in 2012, rising to $4 billion annually by 2020.
> 
> At the same time, Canada is negotiating a free trade agreement with the EU that promises to open up the world's largest common economic market to Canadian enterprises. But critics say the plan could cost thousands of Canadian manufacturing jobs, and could reduce the ability of local governments to buy locally.
> 
> The government in Ottawa has indicated it expects to have a deal finalized next year.


Oil Sands: Canada's 'Unprecedented' EU Pressure Campaign Undermines Science, Report Says

dirty tricks for by a dirty industry........with enough profits to clean up it's act......


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Why not kill off other successful sectors of the economy as well, thus reducing the value of the dollar--for the good of Canada?. Killing exports to create exports isn't a viable plan. .


no, not "kill off". *cool off*. 

there's a difference.


----------



## Macfury

Europe has developed a phony holier-than-thou "green-itude" that stinks of hypocrisy. Why shouldn't Canada promote its exports to them?

Those damned Europeans slaughter horses for food!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Europe has developed a phony holier-than-thou "green-itude" that stinks of hypocrisy. Why shouldn't Canada promote it's exports to them?


'Cause anything that isn't a natural resource for them or they don't have an economic interest in they will simply ban...

They can plunder the seas at will because it is available to them, but what isn't available to them... well that is a different matter altogether dontchaknow.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada's F-35 Purchase: Are We Buying Jets That Can't Fly?*





> It seems that the F-35, the fighter jets that Canada is planning on buying to replace our aging F-18s, are running into more trouble.
> 
> The Fort Worth Star-Telegram reports that the plane's power systems are failing in ground tests forcing the entire fleet to be grounded. The story also points out that the planes have had two other serious delays in the last year.


(Huffington Post)


----------



## Macfury

That's simply typical of complex techology, CM. As an aficionado of the space program, you of all people should know that.


----------



## i-rui

the Pentagon should ask China how to fix the f-35 since they've already hacked all the plans and data on the jet.


----------



## groovetube

regarding the flap over the ndp leader having ties to the bloc, saw this on twitter made me laugh:



> FLASH! Conservative MP once member of Bloc, Tory cabinet minister a former Bloc member | News | National Post Cons explain that that's totally different because shut up.


----------



## CubaMark

groovetube: sweet.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like Stephane Dion and the federal Liberals are also exploiting bizarre choice of Nycole Turmel as interim NDP leader:



> Stephane Dion and the Liberals are exploiting the Nycole Turmel controversy, attempting to raise money from the NDP’s leadership recent debacle.
> 
> In a fundraising letter sent to supporters Wednesday, Mr. Dion, the former Liberal leader, argues the NDP are “playing a deeply irresponsible political game.”
> 
> And he notes his concerns over the “flakiness” of Ms. Turmel and the other NDP MPs from Quebec, who he says “are unwilling to say they support a united Canada.”


Liberals see dollar signs in NDP debacle - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

who cares. Aren't the liberals toast?

Suddenly, they matter?


----------



## Macfury

Nice to see that the crackpot provincial NDP platform will funnel votes to the PCs.

Put coal plants on standby, keep cars one metre from bikes: Ontario NDP | News | National Post


----------



## CubaMark

*What's Stephen Harper doing in a bathroom in Brazil, anyway?*


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *What's Stephen Harper doing in a bathroom in Brazil, anyway?*


So what is it you and the tabloid media are suggesting exactly?


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> So what is it you and the tabloid media are suggesting exactly?


Well, gosh, _you could read the article_ and find out (it's actually about diplomatic spats, not another wide-stance bathroom stall sort of thing).


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Well, gosh, _you could read the article_ and find out (it's actually about diplomatic spats, not another wide-stance bathroom stall sort of thing).


I read the article... as I do every link provided... unlike some (not suggesting you are one of the "some"... just sayin')

My question remains the same...

Usually if I spend "too" long in the bathroom as an * adult* male it is because I'm not feeling well...

You and the tabloid media seem to have another take on it... so I ask again....what is it you and the tabloid media are suggesting exactly?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I read the article... my question remains the same...
> 
> Usually if spend "too" long in the bathroom as an * adult* male it is because I'm not feeling well...
> 
> You and the tabloid media seem to have another take on it so I ask again....?


I agree, screature. Why is this even being posted?


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *What's Stephen Harper doing in a bathroom in Brazil, anyway?*


Given pictures I've seen here perhaps he was checking out ehMac on his cell phone, I personally use a iPod Touch when on the thrown to check posts on ehMac...err ahh...does that mean iP Touch myself in the bathroom?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Given pictures I've seen here perhaps he was checking out ehMac on his cell phone, I personally use a iPod Touch when on the thrown to check posts on ehMac...err ahh...does that mean iP Touch myself in the bathroom?


The thrown?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The thrown?


We are talking about the King of Canada aren't we?


----------



## CubaMark

Okay - have I stepped through the looking glass? This is the "Canadian Political Thread" and the article (from the CBC, not a "tabloid") refers to diplomatic conflicts between the Canadian government and the Brazilian government.

I'm on topic. Where the heck are you guys?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Okay - have I stepped through the looking glass? This is the "Canadian Political Thread" and the article (from the CBC, not a "tabloid") refers to diplomatic conflicts between the Canadian government and the Brazilian government.
> 
> I'm on topic. Where the heck are you guys?


What are those diplomatic conflicts? What is your opinion of them? The article says nothing and your post has no context.


----------



## CubaMark

As my Catholic grandmother used to say, *Christ on a stick!*

The _diplomatic conflicts_ were around protocol and procedure at a dinner and news conference. It's in the article.

_My opinion:_ well, that's interesting. I wonder what else is going on to tick off the Brazilians?

_Context:_ you have as much as I have - if you've read the article.

Seriously, guys. Troll much? It's a political thread. It was a political kerfuffle. Not out on a limb to post it here. Now go back to ranting about whatever little thing has caught your attention, pay no mind to me.


----------



## Macfury

Asking you to explain your post is trolling? 

You got nothing.


----------



## CubaMark

...and today our imperious leader is in Honduras, a bastion of democracy (at least in the eyes of those on the political right... you know, the kind of democracy that involves a military overthrow of any slightly "leftist" government), where it's just been announced that a just-dandy free-trade deal has been struck...

*Canada-Honduras announce free-trade deal*



> "A free-trade agreement with Honduras is a key part of our government's agenda to open new markets for Canadian businesses, create new opportunities for our workers and contribute to Canada's future prosperity."
> 
> Critics have said the Harper government is moving too quickly to provide credibility to the current right-wing Honduran regime at a time when the country is still suffering human-rights abuses, poor treatment of underpaid workers and a high crime rate.





> In 2010, two-way merchandise trade between Canada and Honduras totalled $192 million.
> 
> Canadian exports totalled $40.8 million — mainly fertilizers, machinery and dye. Imports totalled $151.2 million - mainly fruits and textiles.


(Vancouver Sun)

_...meanwhile, one of the countries with which Canada should have been strengthening ties remains off the Conservatives' radar..._

*Harper can't ignore Cuba*



> ...at a time when Harper claims to be pursuing an invigorated policy toward Latin America and the Caribbean (LAC), he is ignoring Canada's natural advantages in Cuba - one of the region's most important countries. Needless to say, this doesn't make any foreign policy sense.
> 
> Significantly, Canadian-Cuban relations during the Harper years have suffered and now appear to be locked in a diplomatic holding pattern. To an outside observer, it looks as if a neo-conservative ideology, supported by lethargy in the Pearson Building in Ottawa, has taken the place of pragmatism and common sense.





> Canada has an enviable position in Cuba: two-way trade exceeds $1.5 billion, more than 900,000 Canadian tourists visit annually, Toronto-based Sherritt International is the largest single foreign investor in the country, and Ottawa has had a long and storied relationship with the island.
> 
> Most Cubans recall fondly that the only countries in the Western hemisphere not to break diplomatic ties with Cuba in the early 1960s were Canada and Mexico. And, no less important, the Cubans respect us enormously - as is symbolized by the two million Cubans who participate annually in the Terry Fox run. Yet the Harper government has consistently ignored that goodwill and neglected the bilateral relationship's huge potential.



(Ottawa Citizen)


----------



## bryanc

I'd certainly much rather buy Cuban fruits and other exports than Honduran exports.

And I wouldn't even consider travel in Honduras, whereas I've enjoyed visiting Cuba and hope to go back there.

If only the Canadian Government actually represented Canadians.


----------



## Macfury

Why trade with China or Mexico if we're going to pick on Honduras? It's fine by me.


----------



## groovetube

ouch.

Harper Tories most popular choice of incarcerated individuals | Canada Politics - Yahoo! News


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> ouch.
> 
> Harper Tories most popular choice of incarcerated individuals | Canada Politics - Yahoo! News


It's the promise of bigger and better jails aka their home...


----------



## eMacMan

One needs to look South of the border to really understand the reason for bigger jail capacity.

Can't afford to build them or staff them? farm that out to private enterprise. No way to fill them? Just find a corrupt judge to railroad every first or petty offender that can't afford a big name lawyer.

Why Harpo wants to please that particular group of corporate slime is beyond my understanding, but given Canada's tendency to copy some of the very worst aspects of American policy, that is certainly the direction I suspect his jail initiative will take.


----------



## groovetube

yes, the right seems to have a real desire for this don't they.

Here's another something I saw today:
Tax us more, say wealthy Europeans | World news | The Guardian


----------



## CubaMark

Rather than sully the Jack Layton funeral thread with a topic that will no doubt lead to some dirt being thrown around, this thread seems a good place for the following...

*My wish for Olivia Chow*



> “I hope the press doesn’t turn this woman into a Canadian version of Jackie-O,” ran one snide comment on the Globe’s website. “She is not even close.”
> 
> Oh, give me a break. Olivia Chow, a strong, successful politician, did the whole country a favour by being as graceful as she was during this past week.
> 
> But by week’s end, people weren’t turning her into Jackie O, they were turning her into a future prime minister.





> ...despite her obvious talents, some political observers I talked to, mostly off the record, think a run for the leadership would be disastrous for her.
> 
> “She’ll be compared to Jack every minute.”(Won’t anyone who runs?) “She can’t speak French.”(She does speak Cantonese.) “She has a different set of skills.”
> 
> One activist committed to helping more women run for office, argues it’s better for her to run up front “rather than to become a power behind the throne, the holder of Jack Layton's flame.”





> Here is what I wish for Olivia Chow: that she not get subsumed by her husband Jack Layton’s legacy, and that she fulfill her own political and personal destiny.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Sonal

My heart goes out to Olivia Chow, and I think she handled herself with great dignity through all of this, but I don't think she'd be a good replacement for Jack Layton.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> My heart goes out to Olivia Chow, and I think she handled herself with great dignity through all of this, but I don't think she'd be a good replacement for Jack Layton.


I agree. Her French is limited, which makes her being leader difficult. Still, she represents what is good about the NDP quite well. 

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Macfury

I was never a fan of Olivia Chow in politics, so I have no skin in the game. However, I think anyone without a firm grip on French had best keep clear of leading a party that is now riding high on the whims of Quebec voters.


----------



## Sonal

Anyone seen the new Liberal TV ads for the Ontario elections? I rather like it. (Video can be seen from the link.)

McGuinty updates budget, rolls out new ad - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

I guess people who might vote liberal think it's kind of sweet. Frankly, he's not unpopular because he's doing the right thing--it's because he's screwing up.


----------



## groovetube

anyone see this? U.S. envoy minces no words about PM

Not that any of it is surprising or huge news, well to some of us anyway.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Anyone seen the new Liberal TV ads for the Ontario elections? I rather like it. (Video can be seen from the link.)
> 
> McGuinty updates budget, rolls out new ad - Politics - CBC News


I did see it, and I was surprised at how good the actual ad is. I'm no mcguinty fan, but he has someone smart working for him.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that secretly the Harper tories would rather hudak NOT win.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> anyone see this? U.S. envoy minces no words about PM
> 
> Not that any of it is surprising or huge news, well to some of us anyway.


Seems about right to me... I don't see it as "not mincing words" as if it the cable was somehow "shockingly blunt"... seems the author was trying to make a story out of nothing at all.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Seems about right to me... I don't see it as "not mincing words" as if it the cable was somehow "shockingly blunt"... seems the author was trying to make a story out of nothing at all.


I found that "story" hilarious as well. The PM wishes to hold onto power!!!!????? This is an outrage!!! 

I guess the envoy preferred Ignatieff, who apparently didn't.


----------



## screature

As long as we are Wikileaking...

Documents reveal U.S. officials cheered end of Chrétien era
White House counted days until Martin became PM


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> As long as we are Wikileaking...
> 
> Documents reveal U.S. officials cheered end of Chrétien era
> White House counted days until Martin became PM


Reading beyond the headline...



> "We believe that once Chrétien is gone, there will be an improvement in Canada's policy toward the U.S., at least in tone and perhaps even substantively," reads a March 2003 cable titled "Canada-Iraq: What now?" and signed by Cellucci.
> 
> Much of the animosity was over the war in Iraq. Chrétien kept Canada out of the war, much to the dismay of the Americans, according to several cables released by WikiLeaks.
> 
> That dismay was the reason Bush postponed a state visit in 2003, according to an April 2003 cable. The postponement, the cable said, was "a harsh but necessary reality check for Canada


Makes me like Chrétien even more.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Seems about right to me... I don't see it as "not mincing words" as if it the cable was somehow "shockingly blunt"... seems the author was trying to make a story out of nothing at all.


Hence the line:



> Not that any of it is surprising or huge news, *well to some of us anyway. (BIG HONKIN' SMILIE!)*


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> As long as we are Wikileaking...


I remember that Chretien was referred to as "Dino" by the Bush cabinet.


----------



## groovetube

oh, that's why he went into Iraq for Bush.

Oh wait...


----------



## Sonal

Olivia Chow to avoid NDP leadership endorsement - Politics - CBC News

Olivia Chow has confirmed that she is not running, nor will she endorse anyone. 

Smart move, I think.


----------



## Max

I agree, Sonal. Looks good on her, too.


----------



## Macfury

That's the best idea.


----------



## CubaMark

_*Now that Parliament is back in session, time to check out what's happening in the chamber..*_

*MacKay defends use of military search-and-rescue chopper*



> Defence Minister Peter MacKay is standing by his use of a Canadian Forces search-and-rescue helicopter at the end of a vacation last year, saying that the flight was part of a training exercise.
> 
> On Wednesday, CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife reported that MacKay used one of the three Cormorant search-and-rescue helicopters stationed in Newfoundland and Labrador to transport him from a private salmon fishing lodge along the Gander River last July.
> 
> Military sources said the order to collect MacKay came from the defence minister's own office.





> "His government is paying consultants to tell them how to save money but the minister of defence uses a helicopter that should be on standby for search and rescue to pick him up from a personal fishing trip," _–New Democrat MP Jack Harris _


(CTV)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> _*Now that Parliament is back in session, time to check out what's happening in the chamber..*_
> 
> *MacKay defends use of military search-and-rescue chopper*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CTV)


Picky, picky, picky, CM. No drowning fisherperson, or off-shore oil worker needed to be rescued that day.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr. G: 


*Challenger logs show low-security officials taking flights*



> The documents reveal:
> 
> 
> A general, his wife and three other officers flew to Brazil for six days at a cost of $335,000.
> Defence department personnel and their families got sightseeing trips around Ottawa at a cost of $12,000.
> Eight lower ranking officers and a civilian flew across the country for an air show at a cost of $120,000.
> A general, two officers and a female civilian flew to Jamaica for 24 hours at a cost of $96,000
> 
> The issue of the use of the Challenger emerged following reports that Gen. Walt Natynczyk, chief of the defence staff, had taken the government's jets to events including hockey and football games, and to join his family on a cruise starting in St. Maarten, a Caribbean island.


(CBC)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Dr. G:
> 
> 
> *Challenger logs show low-security officials taking flights*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


Picky, picky, sticky picky, CM. They have a majority. "To the victor goes the spoils." It's only money .................. albeit taxpayer's money, but money still. Upon what would you see them spend this money -- the homeless, food for children who hunger, elder care????? Get real.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Amid claims by the NDP that Treasury Board President Tony Clement helped line up a G8 Summit-related job for a friend, the mayor of Huntsville, Ont., has confirmed that the town hired consultant Vern Freedlander."

Huntsville mayor confirms hiring Clement acquaintance - Politics - CBC News

Now the NDP is getting in on CubaMark's territory. 

Picky, picky, picky ............. All the Conservative Party and Treasury Board President Tony Clement were doing was to help raise the employment levle of people in ON. Would they rather see Vern Freedlander go on public assistance????


----------



## BigDL

In my adult life, the people of NS and NB are disgusted and have wanted an end to pork barrel politics. Many are so fed up by the use of tax money on the friends of the Government.

The good folks of Ontario seemingly to have embraced this style of largess with abandon. Well at least the good folks of cottage country and the 905.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Picky, picky, sticky picky, CM. They have a majority. "To the victor goes the spoils." It's only money .................. albeit taxpayer's money, but money still. Upon what would you see them spend this money -- the homeless, food for children who hunger, elder care????? Get real.


My, my, are we blaming Harper for the excesses of the DND's upper echelons? How desperate.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> The good folks of Ontario seemingly to have embraced this style of largess with abandon. Well at least the good folks of cottage country and the 905.


Another one complaining after years and years of enjoying transfer payments from Ontario taxpayers to even out all that regional disparity. LOL

Don't worry about that slimeball Clement, he'll get what he deserves sooner or later.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*And the hits keep on comin' - Lobsterfest*

MacKay took military jet to lobster fest - Canada - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

if he woulda taken one of taken one of those new stealth fighters, those lobsters wouldn't have seen him comin...


----------



## kps

Meh, we have discussed this ad infinitum, we all know that it does not matter whether they're Con, Lib or even the saintly NDP...once the piggies find the trough there's no stopping them. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Sure, but we've listened 'ad infinitum' about how it was the liberals and their culture of entitlement that was the problem.

Now, we discover it's also the cons, who seem to be quite comfortable with spending it up in the worst way. I suppose open accountable government actually means, we'll spend all your money right in front of your noses and tell you it's our right to do so.


----------



## MacDoc

The Liberals at least fixed the national financial structure ( not without pain ) and ran a smaller government than Harpo.

and they had Martin

worthwhile read

How Paul Martin would fix the world - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> The Liberals at least fixed the national financial structure ( not without pain ) and ran a smaller government than Harpo.
> 
> and they had Martin
> 
> worthwhile read
> 
> How Paul Martin would fix the world - The Globe and Mail


Martin was a complete ass as PM. Good riddance.

That article also demonstrates why I am glad he's not in power. More stimulus spending? More regulation of banks by a central world body? Greater integration of Europe as a salve for the Greek debt crisis? Martin argues that it should have been allowed to go into default, but it was currency integration that prevented Greece from defaulting and going bankrupt in the first place. The time for Martin has passed him by.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> My, my, are we blaming Harper for the excesses of the DND's upper echelons? How desperate.


Not blaming PM Harper in the least. He is the victor .......... with a majority government. So, they can do as they please. I am so tired of those who pick, pick, pick, gripe, gripe, gripe about all of the taxpayer's money being spent. Hopefully, the new CBC-TV show this Fall, based on "Father Knows Best" will be a hit with the Canadian public from coast to coast to coast. "Conservatives Know Best" will be a breath of fresh air from all the griping and jabs found on "The Rick Mercer Report" and "22 Minutes". We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

Sure, Martin as PM was not a shining time for Canada.

However, looking at track records, I'll take Martin over Flaherty any day of the week. But I know how some prefer to live in the world of possibilities based on, well anyone's guess I suppose.


----------



## CubaMark

kps said:


> My, my, are we blaming Harper for the excesses of the DND's upper echelons? How desperate.


*Well, how about Defence Minister Peter MacKay? *



> Defence Minister Peter MacKay, under fire for flying in a military helicopter while on vacation in Newfoundland, also took a military Challenger business jet to reach his Nova Scotia riding for a lobster dinner, documents show.
> 
> The occasion that prompted use of the government jet was the 76th annual Pictou Lobster Carnival in July 2010.
> 
> The trip happened the day after a military search and rescue helicopter based in Gander, N.L., picked up MacKay from a fishing holiday on the Gander River.


(CBC)


----------



## ged

Hey, these are all training flights for the aircrew. You wouldn't want the crew to be sitting on their duffs for weeks forgetting how to fly because there haven't been any emergencies and then be all rusty when they are needed. Might as well have a passenger or two on a training flight as well since the aircraft will be in the air anyhow. 

As for MacKay, lobsters wont keep forever, ya know.

As for pork barreling, it has always been part of politics and always will be. When you are in power you help your friends and supporters if you want their help in keeping you there.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> Meh, we have discussed this ad infinitum, we all know that it does not matter whether they're Con, Lib or even the saintly NDP...once the piggies find the trough there's no stopping them. :lmao:


I tend to agree with your opinion on this in a sense. There are types of people within every political group who when exposed to power will be tempted to abuse it, or will feel entitled to use government money for their own ends. The answer to this problem isn't simple and to a certain degree will always be inevitable.

I think the point here is that after Adscam, the Cons ran and have continued to run, on the platform that they would not do this. They gained many votes based on this simplistic idea. They would be open, accountable, transparent. They would not abuse their position.

I knew it was BS electioneering when they said it and I'm sure even many Con supporters knew this. Harper certainly knew this. Now they stand exposed as no different than any other political regime. Their spin finally was overtaken by reality.

A large part of the Conservative approach under Harper has been proposing simple answers to complex questions. Now we have their huge "tough on crime", "build more prisons" program they are about to embark on, a far greater waste of taxpayer money than if they all flew on government jets everywhere, every day. After this money is all spent and crime is not reduced, such as the clear example of the US model they are following, we will again see how their simple answers are nothing but more cynical electioneering.


----------



## kps

CubaMark said:


> *Well, how about Defence Minister Peter MacKay? *
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


So what's your point...all in pretty bold?

That McKay is lined up at the trough? That McKay may be abusing his ministerial position? That perhaps he's no different than any other politician with access to perks?


----------



## kps

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> A large part of the Conservative approach under Harper has been proposing simple answers to complex questions. Now we have their huge "tough on crime", "build more prisons" program they are about to embark on, a far greater waste of taxpayer money than if they all flew on government jets everywhere, every day. After this money is all spent and crime is not reduced, such as the clear example of the US model they are following, we will again see how their simple answers are nothing but more cynical electioneering.


Hmmmm,we complain and bitch about how law enforcement has it's hand tied when it comes to organized, networked groups of pedophiles and child abusers but when a government tries to pass new legislation it's a waste of money and nothing will change. Just like when it comes to the juvenile act and mandatory sentences. It's all a sham and for not.

I prefer government to concentrate their effort on the criminals rather than making criminals out of law abiding citizens.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> I prefer government to concentrate their effort on the criminals rather than making criminals out of law abiding citizens.


That tends to be the specialty of the left as regulations begin to strangle the populace and "revenue enhancement" becomes the mantra of government. Reminds me so much of _Animal Farm_.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Hmmmm,we complain and bitch about how law enforcement has it's hand tied when it comes to organized, networked groups of pedophiles and child abusers but when a government tries to pass new legislation it's a waste of money and nothing will change. Just like when it comes to the juvenile act and mandatory sentences. It's all a sham and for not.
> 
> I prefer government to concentrate their effort on the criminals rather than making criminals out of law abiding citizens.



seems to me they're simply concentrating on wasting billions and billions of dollars on building more and more super jails to house the people they'll keep in jail, and it isn't going to make our streets any safer. If anyone wants to be a stooge and fall for this line of crap, far be it from to stand in their way, but don't expect me to buy this sort of wingnut fantasy land of 'focusing on crime' nonsense spoonfed to the right wing minority in this country.

Conservatives seem very interested in just squandering as much money as possible without really thinking smartly about these problems. For starters, perhaps they should wake up to the fact that the war on drugs is hopelessly lost and we need to stop lighting billions of tax payers money on fire to satisfy lunatics desire for fantasy land justice. If we're simply talking about proper and just sentencing for murders etc., I'm not against it.

cheers. And that Guinness is long overdue


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That tends to be the specialty of the left as regulations begin to strangle the populace and "revenue enhancement" becomes the mantra of government. Reminds me so much of _Animal Farm_.


yes we all saw how well deregulation has worked in the US. It'll be years if ever that they'll recover from that unfettered gluttony of excess. You live in a world of donkeys and unicorns if you think that big business/banks will "do the right thing".


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> seems to me they're simply concentrating on wasting billions and billions of dollars on building more and more super jails to house the people they'll keep in jail, and it isn't going to make our streets any safer. If anyone wants to be a stooge and fall for this line of crap, far be it from to stand in their way, but don't expect me to buy this sort of wingnut fantasy land of 'focusing on crime' nonsense spoonfed to the right wing minority in this country.
> 
> Conservatives seem very interested in just squandering as much money as possible without really thinking smartly about these problems. For starters, perhaps they should wake up to the fact that the war on drugs is hopelessly lost and we need to stop lighting billions of tax payers money on fire to satisfy lunatics desire for fantasy land justice. If we're simply talking about proper and just sentencing for murders etc., I'm not against it.
> 
> cheers. And that Guinness is long overdue


Guess it all depends on who's holding the spoon, eh Groove?

I said "concentrate on the criminals" not "focus on crime". 

Hey, they haven't "squandered" anything yet...give 'em a chance to squander it first for pete's sake. LOL


----------



## groovetube

This is true. It seems the game here is to try and make the other guy look like he's a bigger crook than you. Too many has fallen for this game.

And they have been squandering for some time now! We only just know whatever the media has let out. I'm sure there's far more to that storey than we'll ever know.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> This is true. It seems the game here is to try and make the other guy look like he's a bigger crook than you. Too many has fallen for this game.
> 
> And they have been squandering for some time now! We only just know whatever the media has let out. I'm sure there's far more to that storey than we'll ever know.


Yeah the dirty rotten buggers...squandering our money on the likes of the CBC and all...


----------



## groovetube

oh-oh...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> Hmmmm,we complain and bitch about how law enforcement has it's hand tied when it comes to organized, networked groups of pedophiles and child abusers but when a government tries to pass new legislation it's a waste of money and nothing will change. Just like when it comes to the juvenile act and mandatory sentences. It's all a sham and for not.
> 
> I prefer government to concentrate their effort on the criminals rather than making criminals out of law abiding citizens.


The general approach that the Cons are taking WRT crime has been shown to be a failure. All we have to do is look to the US. If harsher sentencing and putting a greater proportion of crooks in prison worked then the US should be the most crime-free country in the world. Something that has been proven to reduce crime is reducing poverty, especially child poverty, and increasing education. But that's not the simple answer that Con supporters like. It's too long term and deals with trying to understand what works best to prevent children from heading down the wrong path to crime.

So instead it's follow the method that has been tried and failed. And spend untold billions doing so.

I'm not saying that everything in the Cons massive omnibus crime bill is wrong. It's hard to know -- there's so very much included. But there are few obvious things that are nothing more than useless "tough on crime" posturing that will cost the taxpayers dearly. $100,000 a year to keep a federal inmate in prison, and 2/3rds of that provincially, you'd think the Con supporters would be a little more keen to look for real solutions that are actually cost effective, rather than "lock 'em all up and throw away the dang key".

Interesting you should bring up child abusers. Under a portion of the Cons new blockbuster legislation someone growing a few pot plants will now receive a longer mandatory sentence than a child rapist. And talk about organized crime. Well doubling down on the USA's failed War on Drugs approach has been shown to only enrich and strengthen organized crime. And it's said that the new anti-pot legislation will increase the percentage of pot convicts from 5 to 30% of the prison population. But it all looks A-plus if you want to pose as "tough on crime", next to your brand new quasi-military drug squads and your state-of-the-art billion-dollar super-prisons. (privatized, of course).

Unfortunately, if there are any useful parts of the Omnibus crime bill, the Cons have made sure they are all bundled together with the crap. And this is again more posturing. If their political opponents don't like the part about increasing mandatory minimum sentences and the wasting of billions on new prisons that will be part of this, when the crime rate is decreasing, they will be painted as being in favour of pedophiles.

I'd rather the Cons just stuck to taking expensive joy rides in military aircraft than sticking us with this garbage. It would cost us all far less in so many ways.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Interesting you should bring up child abusers. Under a portion of the Cons new blockbuster legislation someone growing a few pot plants will now receive a longer mandatory sentence than a child rapist. And talk about organized crime. Well doubling down on the USA's failed War on Drugs approach has been shown to only enrich and strengthen organized crime.


Solution: Don't use marijuana and the jails won't fill up.


----------



## groovetube

Good luck with this. History shows this approach to be an utter failure, and to waste obscene amounts of taxpayers money.

It's time we get smart about it. And before anyone gets excited, being smart about it doesn't mean ignoring it.


----------



## groovetube

Canada paid ransom to free envoys, Wikileaks cables show - The Globe and Mail

Wow. So much for not negotiating with terrorists eh?

Taliban Steve anyone?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Solution: Don't use marijuana and the jails won't fill up.


Not a real solution my friend, only a silly and unreasonable wish.

But it does adequately illustrate the simplistic solution having an appeal to some conservative minds. This is what the Cons are counting on.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Not a real solution my friend, only a silly and unreasonable wish.
> 
> But it does adequately illustrate the simplistic solution having an appeal to some conservative minds. This is what the Cons are counting on.


That's odd, it's worked well for me for over 60 years now.


----------



## groovetube

Anyone with a brain can see the war on drugs is an absolute failure. For the conservatives to simply light more taxpayers money on fire is unbelievably stupid, because as we have seen for over 60 years, it does nothing but waste taxpayers money.

Good thing it was made illegal to help a corporation rake in profits. Talk about gullible!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Our local community cop understands the need to crack down on grow ops which create significant and costly damage during their months of operation prior to moving on. He is miffed at the penalties and said that getting caught with 6 plants yields far too harsh a punishment. He also said that most officers are reasonable and will turn a blind eye when encountering a situation that can intern someone and leave them with a criminal record. He emphasized that "most" cops feel this way but not all.

I do hope that reason prevails before they pass the omnicrime bill. Time will tell.


----------



## groovetube

It isn't about being soft on crime. It's being smart about it. Neither party has shown much of that in my lifetime. For the cons to trumpet their superiority of wasting billions on stupidity which will do nothing is insulting. 

I've heard the very same from members of the police force whom I know very well.


----------



## kps

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I'd rather the Cons just stuck to taking expensive joy rides in military aircraft than sticking us with this garbage. It would cost us all far less in so many ways.





groovetube said:


> Anyone with a brain can see the war on drugs is an absolute failure. For the conservatives to simply light more taxpayers money on fire is unbelievably stupid, because as we have seen for over 60 years, it does nothing but waste taxpayers money.



Couldn't agree more with both of you. Just like Gun Control and the billions the Libs like to trow at it. Totally ineffective in everything it's touted to do except to criminalize law abiding gun owners. But most are gullible into believing in it's necessity and effectiveness against crime.


----------



## MacDoc

Funny the police chiefs don't agree with you.
Poorly handled does not mean unneeded.


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> Funny the police chiefs don't agree with you.
> Poorly handled does not mean unneeded.


Police chiefs are municipal corporate lackeys so far removed from the front lines of real policing, they haven't a bloody clue. Having a father in the rank and file at staff sergeant made that obvious to me and it hasn't changed in all the years since.


----------



## kps

SINC said:


> Police chiefs are municipal corporate lackeys so far removed from the front lines of real policing, they haven't a bloody clue. Having a father in the rank and file at staff sergeant made that obvious to me and it hasn't changed in all the years since.


You left out politicians with a political and anti gun agenda. If you donate to anti gun groups I think your agenda is pretty clear and the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs does precisely that.

They were also asked to provide evidence of any crimes the registry solved or prevented, any deaths or murders the registry prevented or solved...to date...not one instance.


----------



## SINC

kps said:


> You left out politicians with a political and anti gun agenda. If you donate to anti gun groups I think your agenda is pretty clear and the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs does precisely that.
> 
> They were also asked to provide evidence of any crimes the registry solved or prevented, any deaths or murders the registry prevented or solved...to date...not one instance.


That's because the registry is merely lip service to those ignorant of real gun abuse. It ain't the duck hunters or the farmers and ranchers who use them legally and safely. It's punks who import illegal hand guns from the U.S. and think they're in a video game out on the streets shooting at each other.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> You left out politicians with a political and anti gun agenda. If you donate to anti gun groups I think your agenda is pretty clear and the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs does precisely that.
> 
> They were also asked to provide evidence of any crimes the registry solved or prevented, any deaths or murders the registry prevented or solved...to date...not one instance.


Beyond the debate on the registry, we have way less guns than the US, and funny enough, way less murders.

And, again, funny enough, the US jails way more drug users, but somehow, I highly doubt they have less drug users than we do.

Guess it takes a genius to spot the difference.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Part of this ridiculous Omnibus bill is "lawful access". It's something the government has been aiming at for years, the Liberals under Martin started with this idea. It's the ability for police to check into a person's online activities, giving them the power to compel service providers and internet businesses to turn over any info the cops choose.

Nothing wrong with police having the ability to investigate the activities of criminals, but the Libs and Cons have insisted that these powers be granted without judicial oversight. No warrant is necessary, no judge has to be consulted, no case has to be made that there is a real legal necessity to invade someone's privacy. They can look at whatever they choose, they don't have to tell anyone and they can use it however they want. The cops can check you out if they don't like the way you look or didn't like the comment you made on a web site. All legally.

The problem with this bill is that it's all thrown together in a big grab bag, lawful access, new war on drugs, mandatory minimums, child abuse provisions. And it clear that the Cons will brand anyone who has a problem with any little part of this grab bag as being in favour of child abuse and "soft on crime". 

If you want to eat a little lunch, you can't order individual dishes, you gotta take the giant combo plate. And the reason they're doing this is they know that if they presented some of these boneheaded provisions as individual bills, the public might weigh the pros and cons of each one. This way they'll just shove the whole mess down Canadians throats. That's your open, accountable and transparent government.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Beyond the debate on the registry, we have way less guns than the US, and funny enough, way less murders.
> *
> And, again, funny enough, the US jails way more drug users, but somehow, I highly doubt they have less drug users than we do.
> 
> Guess it takes a genius to spot the difference.


Uh and 1/10th the population... do the math.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> *Part of this ridiculous Omnibus bill is "lawful access". It's something the government has been aiming at for years, the Liberals under Martin started with this idea. It's the ability for police to check into a person's online activities, giving them the power to compel service providers and internet businesses to turn over any info the cops choose.
> 
> Nothing wrong with police having the ability to investigate the activities of criminals, but the Libs and Cons have insisted that these powers be granted without judicial oversight. No warrant is necessary, no judge has to be consulted, no case has to be made that there is a real legal necessity to invade someone's privacy. They can look at whatever they choose, they don't have to tell anyone and they can use it however they want. The cops can check you out if they don't like the way you look or didn't like the comment you made on a web site. All legally.*
> 
> The problem with this bill is that it's all thrown together in a big grab bag, lawful access, new war on drugs, mandatory minimums, child abuse provisions. And it clear that the Cons will brand anyone who has a problem with any little part of this grab bag as being in favour of child abuse and "soft on crime".
> 
> If you want to eat a little lunch, you can't order individual dishes, you gotta take the giant combo plate. And the reason they're doing this is they know that if they presented some of these boneheaded provisions as individual bills, the public might weigh the pros and cons of each one. This way they'll just shove the whole mess down Canadians throats. That's your open, accountable and transparent government.


Complete rubbish... You should do your homework and not believe the drivel spouted by OpenMedia that some NDP members seem to have latched onto without doing a a single bit of research to verify the validity of the claim.

First of all the contents of Bill C-52 _An Act regulating telecommunications facilities to support investigations_ were not incorporated into _Bill C-10 The Safe Streets and Communities Act_. So it will need to re-introduced at another point in the future as a separate Bill. For a list of the Bills that were incorporated into Bill C-10 go to:

Backgrounder: Safe Streets & Communities Act
Department of Justice

Secondly BIll C-52 would not remove the necessity for a warrant to be obtained, this is pure hogwash thrown about by people who can't or choose not to read.

Backgrounder - Investigating and Preventing Criminal Electronic Communications Act
Public Safety Canada



> Backgrounder - Investigating and Preventing Criminal Electronic Communications Act
> 
> Intercept Component
> 
> The interception of communications is essential for investigating and prosecuting serious crime and combating terrorism. The police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) require lawful access to communications in some instances, including investigations into organized crime, drug trafficking, terrorism, and child sexual abuse.
> 
> There is currently no legal requirement for companies offering telecommunications services in Canada to build intercept capability into their networks. As a result, we now have situations where judicial authorization is granted (i.e. a warrant is issued), but cannot be effected because the service provider's network is not intercept-capable. Criminals and terrorists are aware of interception “safe havens” and exploit them to continue their criminal activities undetected. New telecommunications services and products are being rolled out every day and there are far too many instances where judicially authorized warrants cannot be executed in a timely manner due to a lack of intercept capability on telecommunications networks.
> 
> The Investigating and Preventing Criminal Electronic Communications Act will address challenges posed by modern technologies that did not exist when the legal framework for interception was designed nearly 40 years ago. * It does not provide the police or CSIS with any new interception powers, nor will it change or expand existing interception authorities in any way. The police and CSIS will continue to require warrants for interception. This legislation will simply help ensure that when warrants are issued, telecommunications companies have the technical ability required to intercept communications for the police and CSIS.*


Bill C-52 Legislative Summary
LegisInfo House of Commons



> A legislative summary is currently being prepared for this bill by the Parliamentary Information and Research Service of the Library of Parliament. Meanwhile, the following executive summary is available.
> 
> On 1 November 2010, the Minister of Public Safety introduced Bill C-52, An Act regulating telecommunications facilities to support investigations (Technical Assistance for Law Enforcement in the 21st Century Act), in the House of Commons and it was given first reading.
> 
> Bill C-52 requires telecommunications service providers to include interception capability in their networks and to provide basic information about their subscribers to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Commissioner of Competition and any police service constituted under the laws of a province. *Requirements to obtain court orders to intercept communications will not be changed by this Act*, which will require service providers to supply basic subscriber information to law enforcement agencies and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service on request.


And finally from the Bill itself:

Bill C-52

Section 2 Interpretation



> Preservation of existing powers
> 
> (2) Nothing in this Act derogates from any power in the Criminal Code, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act or the National Defence Act to intercept communications or to request that telecommunications service provid- ers assist in such interceptions


So please don't just repeat 2nd hand nonsense without checking the validity of the claim... it serves no one to do so.


----------



## kps

Thanks for that Screature, you've helped me get more informed about this. I must admit, I haven't looked at it in any great detail so your summary is helpful.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Beyond the debate on the registry, we have way less guns than the US, and funny enough, way less murders.
> 
> And, again, funny enough, the US jails way more drug users, but somehow, I highly doubt they have less drug users than we do.
> 
> Guess it takes a genius to spot the difference.


Funny how the geniuses like to use the US to support gun control in Canada, but only when it suits them. LOL


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Part of this ridiculous Omnibus bill is "lawful access". It's something the government has been aiming at for years, the Liberals under Martin started with this idea. It's the ability for police to check into a person's online activities, giving them the power to compel service providers and internet businesses to turn over any info the cops choose.
> 
> Nothing wrong with police having the ability to investigate the activities of criminals, but the Libs and Cons have insisted that these powers be granted without judicial oversight. No warrant is necessary, no judge has to be consulted, no case has to be made that there is a real legal necessity to invade someone's privacy. They can look at whatever they choose, they don't have to tell anyone and they can use it however they want. The cops can check you out if they don't like the way you look or didn't like the comment you made on a web site. All legally.
> 
> *The problem with this bill is that it's all thrown together in a big grab bag, lawful access, new war on drugs, mandatory minimums, child abuse provisions. And it clear that the Cons will brand anyone who has a problem with any little part of this grab bag as being in favour of child abuse and "soft on crime".
> 
> If you want to eat a little lunch, you can't order individual dishes, you gotta take the giant combo plate. And the reason they're doing this is they know that if they presented some of these boneheaded provisions as individual bills, the public might weigh the pros and cons of each one. This way they'll just shove the whole mess down Canadians throats. That's your open, accountable and transparent government*.


All of these Bills have been previously debated in the House and/or the Senate, gone to Committee (with the exception of former Bill C-56 which only received First Reading) and the public has been "aware" of them all for quite some time. 

The Cons were completely up front with their intentions to do this in their election campaign and said they would do this within the first 100 sitting days of Parliament if elected, so they are simply keeping a campaign pledge. If anyone is not aware of this or aware of the contents of the Bills that have been incorporated into Bill C-10 they have no one to blame but themselves.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> All of these Bills have been previously debated in the House and/or the Senate, gone to Committee (with the exception of former Bill C-56 which only received First Reading) and the public has been "aware" of them all for quite some time.
> 
> The Cons were completely up front with their intentions to do this in their election campaign and said they would do this within the first 100 sitting days of Parliament if elected, so they are simply keeping a campaign pledge. If anyone is not aware of this or aware of the contents of the Bills that have been incorporated into Bill C-10 they have no one to blame but themselves.


The news on prosecuting possession of a low amount of pot plants is news to me but I don't follow the nitty gritty sometimes. Me thinks that a fair number of CON supporters are going to be taken aback by this.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> The news on prosecuting possession of a low amount of pot plants is news to me but I don't follow the nitty gritty sometimes. Me thinks that a fair number of CON supporters are going to be taken aback by this.


It was fully debated in the Senate and made plenty of headlines.

Personally I think the number is too low and I think so will many judges. What many people fail to understand is that it is still up to a judge to decide whether or not the infraction constitutes trafficking and ultimately whether or not the minimum mandatory sentence will be applied.

This is the case with any statute, it is a "guideline" for judges to follow. How they choose to interpret the statute and which provisions they will enforce is still up to the individual judge to decide. This is how it is with a separate Legislative Branch of Government and a separate Judiciary.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Uh and 1/10th the population... do the math.


Um, relatively speaking, as I know full well the difference in population thank you.

My comment still stands. I have still not seen any geniuses yet.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Um, relatively speaking, as I know full well the difference in population thank you.
> 
> My comment still stands. *I have still not seen any geniuses yet.*


You were not speaking relatively and you sir are no genius on the matter so those in glass houses...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You were not speaking relatively and you sir are no genius on the matter so those in glass houses...


I was commenting with the assumption that anyone over the age of 7 would understand the US has a much bigger population than we do.

And it had nothing to do with my comment, what, so, ever.

So are you suggesting the US jailing the hell out of those running afoul of their drug laws has resulted in much less drug crimes? Do they have less drug addicts? Less crimes committed as a result of drugs?

Relatively... speaking of course, in case, y'know. We'e not sure.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Complete rubbish... You should do your homework and not believe the drivel spouted by OpenMedia that some NDP members seem to have latched onto without doing a a single bit of research to verify the validity of the claim.
> 
> .....
> 
> Secondly BIll C-52 would not remove the necessity for a warrant to be obtained, this is pure hogwash thrown about by people who can't or choose not to read.
> 
> .....
> 
> So please don't just repeat 2nd hand nonsense without checking the validity of the claim... it serves no one to do so.


Thanks for the links and advice, screature.

I'm not sure how helpful some of them are, — press releases from the offices of Conservative ministers could be regarded as just a teensy, weeny bit biased, so I'll keep my salt shaker handy, thanks.

I stand corrected on the inclusion of the Lawful Access legislation as part of the crime bill. The government had given every indication that this would be included in the Omnibus bill, and up until C-10 was revealed 5 days ago nobody knew that it wouldn't be. The info and newspaper stories I had been reading were all written prior to September 20th.

As to whether the proposed bill would give police and CSIS extra powers, many do believe that Section 6 indeed does this very thing. As to the interpretation of the legal wording, I think this is job for lawyers. Your quote from the actual proposed bill doesn't convince me of what you want to convince us of. It could be interpreted to mean that the bill doesn't take away powers from the current law enforcement powers, not from citizens current rights.

From what I understand of others interpretations of the legalese, (not government or supporter assurances), the plan is to compel service providers to turn over subscriber information without warrant, including any information they have on your IP addresses, passwords, device or MAC numbers etc. Currently complying with the police in this regard is not now mandatory, if your ISP or other data service choose to tell the authorities to take a hike they must produce a warrant. They will also be able to compel ISPs, telephone and cable providers to install equipment that is a permanent tap into their systems which will be fed directly to the police authorities. While, yes, the government is saying that a warrant will be required to turn on that tap that they would now have in their back room, somehow that doesn't provide me with a warm and fuzzy feeling. While they may not be able to use the data and info garnered by an "inadvertent" flipping on of the data tap in their back room, something tells me that that switch will get flipped regardless. I think it is only healthy to not blindly trust someone who has access to that kind of power.

I find good enough reason to mistrust this proposed legislation by the fact that *every single privacy commissioner in Canada has written a joint letter to government detailing their serious concerns about this bill.*



> Read together, the provisions of Bills C-50, C-51, and C-52 (augmented by changes in Bills C-22 and C-29) would substantially diminish the privacy rights of Canadians. They do so by enhancing the capacity of the state to conduct surveillance and access private information while reducing the frequency and vigour of judicial scrutiny.





> We are concerned that clause 16 of Bill C-52 would give authorities access to a wide scope of personal information without a warrant; for example, unlisted numbers, email account data and IP addresses. The Government itself took the view that this information was sensitive enough to make trafficking in such 'identity information' a Criminal Code offence. Many Canadians consider this information sensitive and worthy of protection, which does not fit with the proposed self-authorized access model.


Far from being the "spouters of drivel", "nonsense", "rubbish" and "hogwash" that you speak of, I think the Canadian Privacy Commissioner and her 12 provincial counterparts are very well informed on the issues. Maybe you should take a chill pill here.

Even though versions of lawful access have been introduced since the days of Paul Martin, it's never gone far enough to receive any meaningful debate or committee work in the House. If the Conservatives are indeed having second thoughts about whether this bill is good idea so therefore removed it from the Omnibus bill, then I give them credit for listening to the public. But these measures are only delayed not suspended.

If the lawful access provisions are so innocuous and no change to the current state of things, then what is reason for this legislation? To my knowledge the government has never really identified a compelling reason for the measures they are planning. As the privacy commissioners state:


> It is also noteworthy that at no time have Canadian authorities provided the public with any evidence or reasoning to suggest that CSIS or any other Canadian law enforcement agencies have been frustrated in the performance of their duties as a result of shortcomings attributable to current law, TSPs or the manner in which they operate. New powers should be demonstrably necessary as well as proportionate. Ultimately, even if Canadian authorities can show investigations are being frustrated in a digital environment, all the various powers that would be granted to address these issues must be subject to rigorous, independent oversight.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> All of these Bills have been previously debated in the House and/or the Senate, gone to Committee (with the exception of former Bill C-56 which only received First Reading) and the public has been "aware" of them all for quite some time.
> 
> The Cons were completely up front with their intentions to do this in their election campaign and said they would do this within the first 100 sitting days of Parliament if elected, so they are simply keeping a campaign pledge. If anyone is not aware of this or aware of the contents of the Bills that have been incorporated into Bill C-10 they have no one to blame but themselves.


Correct me if I'm misunderstanding your point here but you seem to be saying that since the Conservative government was elected with 39% percent of the voters having full knowledge of the Cons promises about all their crime bills, (for the sake of argument only, because you and I both know that even all the Con voters did not), we are somehow forfeiting any reason to oppose them on these issues, or that Parliament and the Opposition should not be able to scrutinize or debate this grand grab bag of legislation. 

I'm pretty sure that would be Harper's wish on the subject and having this giant stinking duffel bag of mostly bad legislation lumped together certainly makes it more difficult for the opposition to scrutinize and hold the government to account on the details.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Oh, and just for the conservatives on board, -- because as we all know, us lefties just loooooves us all kindsa government spending and waste beejacon, -- how about the government provides us with some kind of cost analysis of what these changes in the Omnibus Crime bill will add up to. 

It will clearly result in a surge in the prison population as well as a surge to cases before the courts. I don't know what it costs to prosecute some of these cases, but I understand that federal inmates each cost us something like $100K a year and provincial inmates something like $60 to $70K each. 

How many billions are we potentially speaking about before we launch headlong into this new US-style justice system? What exactly will we need to cut to pay for this?


----------



## i-rui

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I'm pretty sure that would be Harper's wish on the subject and having this giant stinking duffel bag of mostly bad legislation lumped together certainly makes it more difficult for the opposition to scrutinize and hold the government to account on the details.


a *BIG* +1. It's the only reason to lump all these changes together.



GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I don't know what it costs to prosecute some of these cases, but I understand that federal inmates each cost us something like $100K a year and provincial inmates something like $60 to $70K each.


it's hilarious how the right bitches about welfare programs, yet they're totally cool with spending 60-100k a year/per inmate. if they could just get it through their thick heads that money spent on social programs can drive down crime, and save us money in other ways.


and just to clarify, the U.S. is #1 per-capita in gun ownership :

List of countries by gun ownership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it's hilarious how the right bitches about welfare programs, yet they're totally cool with spending 60-100k a year/per inmate. if they could just get it through their thick heads that money spent on social programs can drive down crime, and save us money in other ways.


It's hilarious how the left thinks that welfare cheques prevent crime!


----------



## jimbotelecom

i-rui said:


> a *BIG* +1. It's the only reason to lump all these changes together.
> 
> 
> 
> it's hilarious how the right bitches about welfare programs, yet they're totally cool with spending 60-100k a year/per inmate. if they could just get it through their thick heads that money spent on social programs can drive down crime, and save us money in other ways.
> 
> 
> and just to clarify, the U.S. is #1 per-capita in gun ownership :
> 
> List of countries by gun ownership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Convicts in fed prisons cost $160,000 per year. Sentence involves 2 or more years. The CON project is very very expensive.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's hilarious how the left thinks that welfare cheques prevent crime!


I doubt anyone is stupid enough to actually suggest such a thing, but thanks for your contribution anyway.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Thanks for the links and advice, screature.
> 
> I'm not sure how helpful some of them are, — press releases from the offices of Conservative ministers could be regarded as just a teensy, weeny bit biased, so I'll keep my salt shaker handy, thanks.
> 
> I stand corrected on the inclusion of the Lawful Access legislation as part of the crime bill. The government had given every indication that this would be included in the Omnibus bill, and up until C-10 was revealed 5 days ago nobody knew that it wouldn't be. The info and newspaper stories I had been reading were all written prior to September 20th.
> 
> As to whether the proposed bill would give police and CSIS extra powers, many do believe that Section 6 indeed does this very thing. As to the interpretation of the legal wording, I think this is job for lawyers. Your quote from the actual proposed bill doesn't convince me of what you want to convince us of. It could be interpreted to mean that the bill doesn't take away powers from the current law enforcement powers, not from citizens current rights.
> 
> From what I understand of others interpretations of the legalese, (not government or supporter assurances), the plan is to compel service providers to turn over subscriber information without warrant, including any information they have on your IP addresses, passwords, device or MAC numbers etc. Currently complying with the police in this regard is not now mandatory, if your ISP or other data service choose to tell the authorities to take a hike they must produce a warrant. They will also be able to compel ISPs, telephone and cable providers to install equipment that is a permanent tap into their systems which will be fed directly to the police authorities. While, yes, the government is saying that a warrant will be required to turn on that tap that they would now have in their back room, somehow that doesn't provide me with a warm and fuzzy feeling. While they may not be able to use the data and info garnered by an "inadvertent" flipping on of the data tap in their back room, something tells me that that switch will get flipped regardless. I think it is only healthy to not blindly trust someone who has access to that kind of power.
> 
> I find good enough reason to mistrust this proposed legislation by the fact that *every single privacy commissioner in Canada has written a joint letter to government detailing their serious concerns about this bill.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Far from being the "spouters of drivel", "nonsense", "rubbish" and "hogwash" that you speak of, I think the Canadian Privacy Commissioner and her 12 provincial counterparts are very well informed on the issues. Maybe you should take a chill pill here.
> 
> Even though versions of lawful access have been introduced since the days of Paul Martin, it's never gone far enough to receive any meaningful debate or committee work in the House. If the Conservatives are indeed having second thoughts about whether this bill is good idea so therefore removed it from the Omnibus bill, then I give them credit for listening to the public. But these measures are only delayed not suspended.
> 
> *If the lawful access provisions are so innocuous and no change to the current state of things, then what is reason for this legislation? To my knowledge the government has never really identified a compelling reason* for the measures they are planning. As the privacy commissioners state:


Well first of all a backgrounder is not a a press release, it is prepared by legislative experts, that it appears in a News Release Section on the Government Web Site is merely to make it easy for people to find although it seems that some are still incapable of doing so on their own.

Secondly the Privacy Commissioners are dealing in fears as are you and not in the letter of the legislation nor its obvious intent which is to investigate possible criminal activity and not individual personal communications (unless they indicate possible *criminal* activity) and so you can collectively wring your hands in fear and doubt but you made a definitive statement concerning what Bill C-10 says and allows for and it is categorically false. 

As for the reasons for additional legislation, as per the now nonexistent Bill C-52, it is simply to bring into force that ISPs must have the means of interception... I really don't see what is not to understand. The component of the legislation that does not require a warrant for authorized individuals is to receive the name and address information relative to the poster from their IP address... from that point on you need a warrant... what is so egregious about this when reverse telephone directories that are commonly available to the police and others are readily available and totally legal and a valued asset in criminal investigations.

It is simply a beginning point to see if an individual may be a suspect in an unlawful activity, if they aren't it will end there and will never escalate to the point of having to get a warrant.

But, please by all means feel free to continue to spread FUD but I for one will not sit idly by and not call you out on every point of fact you get wrong.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Correct me if I'm misunderstanding your point here but you seem to be saying that since the Conservative government was elected with 39% percent of the voters having full knowledge of the Cons promises about all their crime bills, (for the sake of argument only, because you and I both know that even all the Con voters did not), *we are somehow forfeiting any reason to oppose them on these issues, or that Parliament and the Opposition should not be able to scrutinize* or debate this grand grab bag of legislation.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that would be Harper's wish on the subject and having this giant stinking duffel bag of mostly bad legislation lumped together certainly makes it more difficult for the opposition to scrutinize and hold the government to account on the details.


Nope just saying the Omnibus Bill contains nothing new as you seem to wish to pretend otherwise... every bit of this Bill has been before the Commons and/or the Senate and in Committee (except the C-56 portion)... please do try and read the actual words stated rather come up with your own in between the lines extrapolation.

All the legislation in this Bill has already been scrutinized... call it whatever pejorative term you choose but the fact is again there is nothing new here... 

So it would be a waste of time and money to go through it all over again as individual Bills as the result would be the same with the usual suspects on all sides saying exactly the same things they did the first time around (and in fact they have the opportunity to say the same things all over again even though they are now in one Bill as opposed to several, there will still be debate in the House in Committee and in the Senate) and then because the Cons have a majority all of the Bills would pass anyway...

So effectively you are just advocating spending a bunch of money that would yield the same result on legislation that has already been thoroughly debated in a previous Parliament... That's really useful and cost effective.


----------



## groovetube

Corrections figures offer glimpse of Tory crime agenda’s total cost - The Globe and Mail

The conservatives misleading people on how much things will actually cost.

Well that's a big surprise...


----------



## i-rui

yay!!!

BILLIONS on prisons!!!! 

Just what we needed!!!


----------



## groovetube

utterly amazing how conservatives, after howling about how the gun registry cost so many billions, but didn't help make our streets safer, are now clapping their hands to spend many more billions, that again, will not make our streets any safer.

You couldn't make this up if you tried.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> utterly amazing how conservatives, after howling about how the gun registry cost so many billions, but didn't help make our streets safer, are now clapping their hands to spend many more billions, that again, will not make our streets any safer.
> 
> You couldn't make this up if you tried.


That's very "conservative" of you to let our poor disenfranchised criminal element suffer in these outdated 100+ year old prisons which desperately need improvements and updates.

I guess all you liberals support cruel and unusual punishment, next y'all will tell me that you want capital punishment back on the books.


----------



## groovetube

next you'll be tellin us they should all get cable tv.

oh wait...


----------



## CubaMark

kps said:


> That's very "conservative" of you to let our poor disenfranchised criminal element suffer in these outdated 100+ year old prisons which desperately need improvements and updates.


Interestingly, kps, that's not an argument made in any of the coverage of the issue. If the Conservatives have that as a compelling argument for their mega-jail plans, they may want to do some P.R.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Well first of all a backgrounder is not a a press release, it is prepared by legislative experts, that it appears in a News Release Section on the Government Web Site is merely to make it easy for people to find although it seems that some are still incapable of doing so on their own.


The backgrounders you linked to are indeed no more than interpretations prepared under the auspices of the ministry involved headed by Conservative ministers. While the tone is relatively neutral sounding they are definitely highlighting the reasons why they believe these measures are necessary and are making arguments in favour of those reasons. Therefore it is not impartial information. Despite your assurances and your dollop of snark, I'll still keep those grains of salt handy.



screature said:


> Secondly the Privacy Commissioners are dealing in fears as are you and not in the letter of the legislation nor its obvious intent which is to investigate possible criminal activity and not individual personal communications (unless they indicate possible *criminal* activity) and so you can collectively wring your hands in fear and doubt but you made a definitive statement concerning what Bill C-10 says and allows for and it is categorically false.
> 
> As for the reasons for additional legislation, as per the now nonexistent Bill C-52, it is simply to bring into force that ISPs must have the means of interception... I really don't see what is not to understand. The component of the legislation that does not require a warrant for authorized individuals is to receive the name and address information relative to the poster from their IP address... from that point on you need a warrant... what is so egregious about this when reverse telephone directories that are commonly available to the police and others are readily available and totally legal and a valued asset in criminal investigations.
> 
> It is simply a beginning point to see if an individual may be a suspect in an unlawful activity, if they aren't it will end there and will never escalate to the point of having to get a warrant.
> 
> But, please by all means feel free to continue to spread FUD but I for one will not sit idly by and not call you out on every point of fact you get wrong.


So the Canadian federal and provincial privacy commissioners and those who heed their concerns are spreaders of FUD and lies, according to you?

I don't see what's wrong with expecting a whole lot of scrutiny, transparency and openness when governments seek to grant new powers unto themselves.

As the privacy commissioners clearly pointed out, demanding information without a warrant is not necessarily a harmless matter. It's not nearly as simple as your argument about public phone directory information, something which a person can opt out of at any rate by maintaining an unlisted phone number. The ISP and cell companies have access to much more information on their subscribers as well, much of it which subscribers may not be too happy about having shared on the warrantless arbitrary say-so of a cop. Device MAC numbers, IP addresses, account numbers, account and email passwords, as well as those unlisted phone numbers that previously required a warrant to access, are all up for grabs here. This is not normally public information. 

You state that the privacy commissioners are dealing in unwarranted fears here, but it sounds to me like you are saying, "just blindly trust the government to do as they need, there is no reason at all for fear". As I said before, I think it is perfectly reasonable to not grant cart blanche to expanded power when no compelling argument has been made for the necessity of these new powers. Call that FUD if you wish, or brand me as alarmist, but I'd say only a fool, or the incurably naive would blindly trust police and governments to always do the right and proper thing. They can still do their jobs just fine by using warrants and having legal judicial oversight of their actions.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Nope just saying the Omnibus Bill contains nothing new as you seem to wish to pretend otherwise... every bit of this Bill has been before the Commons and/or the Senate and in Committee (except the C-56 portion)... please do try and read the actual words stated rather come up with your own in between the lines extrapolation.


Again with the snark? Wherever did I try and impugn *your* reading abilities? I never stated that the constituent parts of Omnibus Bill were new.



screature said:


> All the legislation in this Bill has already been scrutinized... call it whatever pejorative term you choose but the fact is again there is nothing new here...
> 
> So it would be a waste of time and money to go through it all over again as individual Bills as the result would be the same with the usual suspects on all sides saying exactly the same things they did the first time around (and in fact they have the opportunity to say the same things all over again even though they are now in one Bill as opposed to several, there will still be debate in the House in Committee and in the Senate) and then because the Cons have a majority all of the Bills would pass anyway...
> 
> So effectively you are just advocating spending a bunch of money that would yield the same result on legislation that has already been thoroughly debated in a previous Parliament... That's really useful and cost effective.


While the bill is not completely new, if you're talking about the waste of money that Parliamentary procedure is, I would suggest that Harper and the Cons could have saved a whole lot of money by not letting this legislation die twice in the past by proroguing Parliament and killing all that legislation. It is the Cons who have been wasting Parliament's money.

But now that the legislation is being re-introduced it must go through the same steps as it did before. The Cons hope to sidestep this by combining the whole thing and overwhelming the ability of the Opposition to do their job of holding the government to account. I suppose you would ask the Opposition to just rubber stamp this thing, even though they consider large portions to be flawed, harmful and expensive? 

Something else to consider is that both the Government and Opposition are new to a large degree. Not the same MPs at all, so they can hardly be expected to be bound by previous discussion. If Harper wants to put this to a new Parliament, then it needs to be scrutinized, debated and reviewed by that new Parliament.

Who knows, maybe this time they'll be able to get some new information, such as the recent info from CSC about the new costs they are fielding under some of the crime legislation the Cons have already passed. 

It would be nice if instead of trying to convince Canadians that we are experiencing a crime surge when we're not, the Cons could just tell us what the measures they deem necessary will actually cost us for the next 4 years and what cuts to services will be necessary to pay for their new spending.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> That's very "conservative" of you to let our poor disenfranchised criminal element suffer in these outdated 100+ year old prisons which desperately need improvements and updates.
> 
> I guess all you liberals support cruel and unusual punishment, next y'all will tell me that you want capital punishment back on the books.


I suppose you're only joking, because you couldn't seriously be making the argument that concern for inmate conditions is the reason for new prisons. 

The new crime legislation will fill those new prisons, so it's likely crowding won't improve anyway. And much of the new prison population will be going to provincial jails. I wonder if the Cons plan to help out the various provinces with the new spending they'll have to do for jails and courts and whether they'll also include these costs in their estimates of what the new measure will cost? 

Oh wait, they're really not wanting to even estimate the costs in the first place.


----------



## groovetube

If I may point out yet another hypocritical con item, recently I saw circulated on a few conservative blogs the great security threat the new smart meters will pose, detailing all of our life's activities, well, thats quite funny coming from the same bunch who seem to have no problem at all with the conservative government allowing far worse surveillance on our lives.

It's like shootin fish in a barrel finding these hypocrisies.


----------



## CubaMark

*'It's insane': Feds invest heavily in AECL even as they sell off reactor division
*


> _OTTAWA_ — The federal Conservative government tossed more than $183 million into Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. in the first three months of the fiscal year — nearly double the total annual budget — even as it was selling off the nuclear reactor division for just $15 million, plus royalties.





> Approximately $114 million of that government funding was invested in the spun-off nuclear reactor division that was sold in the same quarter for only $15 million plus royalties to SNC-Lavalin, the Montreal-based engineering and construction giant.
> 
> "It may be the dumbest sale of anything in the history of Canada. We're spending money in the process of losing even more money," said NDP MP Nathan Cullen, a point man for the party on natural resources. "It's insane."


(Montreal Gazette)


----------



## jimbotelecom

^^^^^^

Yup. Sound fiscal management. 

We know they're not smoking pot, so what is the brain trust drinking?


----------



## Macfury

It was insane to hold AECL as long as they did.

However:



> Federal spending on the sold-off nuclear reactor division includes cash to "further Commercial Operations' progress on life extension reactor projects" that will be factored into future royalties paid back to the government.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The backgrounders...


I stand by my initial post, we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Again with the snark?...


You were being facetious in your post and I felt it deserved a little snark in response. 

Same as before... we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## groovetube

MP’s bid to protect flag adds another notch to Harper’s patriotic belt - The Globe and Mail

So glad they're spending valuable time and money on this oh so important issue at a time of great economic turmoil.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> So glad they're spending valuable time and money on this oh so important issue at a time of great economic turmoil.


This is one of Harper's well-honed tactics; he's great at distracting attention away from the things he doesn't want discussed. Expect to see a lot of this sort of thing.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> MP’s bid to protect flag adds another notch to Harper’s patriotic belt - The Globe and Mail
> 
> So glad they're spending valuable time and money on this oh so important issue at a time of great economic turmoil.


There are tons of stupid Private Members Bills (PMB) out there on all sides. This isn't a Government Bill and Private Members Business takes up only 1 hour of debate each day in the House before they move onto the next PMB on the Order Paper so this Bill like almost all PMBs will not take up very much time or money, certainly not relative to Government Bills.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> This is one of Harper's well-honed tactics; he's great at distracting attention away from the things he doesn't want discussed. Expect to see a lot of this sort of thing.


Again this is a PMB it is the work of John Carmichael, MP not Harper and it is the media that jumped on it.


----------



## groovetube

it was also a stab at plenty of other diversionary nonsense (*cough* crime bill) to take our eyes off of really important things.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> it was also a stab at plenty of other diversionary nonsense (*cough* crime bill) to take our eyes off of really important things.


I don't buy your analysis unless you believe that the average Canadian has ADD... which I don't think they do.


----------



## groovetube

oh ok you're right the government would never ever engage in diversionary tactics no, we've never seen this.

Just how stupid do you think people are?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh ok you're right the government would never ever engage in diversionary tactics no, we've never seen this.
> 
> Just how stupid do you think people are?


Again it is NOT a government bill.... you seem not to understand the difference between a government Bill and a PMB...

Go on your merry way... If the gov really wanted to "distract" people's attention they could do a helluva lot more than this stupid bill.... but it is not a government bill. I think you may need a primer on the Parliamentary system in Canada.

As far as how stupid do I think people are... I don't think Canadian's are stupid at all... YOU are the one who is suggesting that the electorate is so stupid and easily distracted.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Again it is NOT a government bill.... you seem not to understand the difference between a government Bill and a PMB...
> 
> Go on your merry way... If the gov really wanted to "distract" people's attention they could do a helluva lot more than this stupid bill.... but it is not a government bill. I think you may need a primer on the Parliamentary system in Canada.
> 
> As far as how stupid do I think people are... I don't think Canadian's are stupid at all... YOU are the one who is suggesting that the electorate is so stupid and easily distracted.


I know you have a particular fondness for spending time correcting people on small details. It isn't the point. And, you've seemed to miss my reference to the big -government bill- that is currently taking up a large part of the bandwidth in Canada.

I'd say, that's quite the distraction. And quite the expensive one at that. Unless you still feel throwing tons of taxpayers money into something like the war on drugs (a proven total failure) is really, a worthwhile distraction.


----------



## i-rui

PMBs often overlap with government agenda (the LGR repeal bill was a PMB that was clearly orchestrated by Harper to wedge political opinions between urban & rural voters).

Still too early to say what this idiotic bill will do, but in general it follows along the trend for Harper to try and "americanize" our politics.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> I stand by my initial post, we will have to agree to disagree.


I agree that we disagree. 

I also stand by my assertion that the Lawful Access legislation is a completely unwarranted (pun intended) and unnecessary erosion of the privacy of Canadians by our government.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> You were being facetious in your post and I felt it deserved a little snark in response.
> 
> Same as before... we will have to agree to disagree.


I was indeed being facetious and sarcastic in some of my wording. I highly enjoy doing so. None of that was directed at any person here, but was directed at the idea and towards the government.

I can disagree with someone's post or political stance here without implying that they can't read or some other personal snark directed at my opponent's intelligence. If and when I cross that line, I'll stand up and apologize -- I understand things can get heated and sometimes one is tempted to stray over. I've done it before myself.

For the record, I think you and a few others here on ehMac are formidable opponents and challenge me to really think about where I'm coming from. Your challenges actually make my posts better than they might have otherwise been. I certainly wouldn't impugn _your_ intelligence.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I was indeed being facetious and sarcastic in some of my wording. I highly enjoy doing so. None of that was directed at any person here, but was directed at the idea and towards the government.
> 
> I can disagree with someone's post or political stance here without implying that they can't read or some other personal snark directed at my opponent's intelligence. If and when I cross that line, I'll stand up and apologize -- I understand things can get heated and sometimes one is tempted to stray over. I've done it before myself.
> 
> *For the record, I think you and a few others here on ehMac are formidable opponents and challenge me to really think about where I'm coming from. Your challenges actually make my posts better than they might have otherwise been. I certainly wouldn't impugn your intelligence.*


Thank you and I think the same of you and your posts so I do apologize for my "snarkiness" it was not meant to offend so much as it was an effort to say "back at ya", childish I know but there it is... and for that I am sorry.

Despite my apparent lack of appreciation for where you are coming from I do understand your concerns and those of the Privacy Commissioners in terms of general principle, however the internet is the new "wild west" filled with those who wish to do harm and exploit the "freedom" that it brings and that does worry me. 

There needs to be a balance between "freedom" (that borders on licence) and direct responsibility and perhaps Bill C-52 went too far in correcting that balance but on the face of it I would say there is a greater threat to citizens and their security and privacy from ne're-do-wells on the the internet than there is from the police, government or other security agencies.

At any rate C-52 is dead and we can have this debate all over again when new legislation is tabled to replace it when it is introduced. In your favour it may very well be that the government actually heeded some of the concerns of the Privacy Commissioners and that is the reason for why its contents were not included in Bill C-10. Time will tell.

As Dr. G. would say... Paix mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Those last two posts are a fine example of all that is right about ehmac. People who hold strong opinions in disagreement on an issue, but with one holding the utmost respect for the other and both willing to apologize when necessary. Take a bow ga and screature, you've set a fine example and I applaud you both for doing so, and I have always respected both of you, in agreement or not. :clap:


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Those last two posts are a fine example of all that is right about ehmac. People who hold strong opinions in disagreement on an issue, but with one holding the utmost respect for the other and both willing to apologize when necessary. Take a bow ga and screature, you've set a fine example and I applaud you both for doing so, and *I have always respected both of you*, in agreement or not. :clap:


Ahh shucks (foot scruffing ground), thanks SINC the feelings are mutual...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *PMBs often overlap with government agenda *(the LGR repeal bill was a PMB that was clearly orchestrated by Harper to wedge political opinions between urban & rural voters).
> 
> Still too early to say what this idiotic bill will do, but in general it follows along the trend for Harper to try and "americanize" our politics.


Not often, actually rarely, however, this is one example where I do agree with your overly generalized assertion but only in terms of the statement that you made that I emphasized and not your complete post.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Thank you and I think the same of you and your posts so I do apologize for my "snarkiness" it was not meant to offend so much as it was an effort to say "back at ya", childish I know but there it is... and for that I am sorry.


That's a very honourable reply. Thanks, I appreciate it. Paix mon ami.



screature said:


> Despite my apparent lack of appreciation for where you are coming from I do understand your concerns and those of the Privacy Commissioners in terms of general principle, however the internet is the new "wild west" filled with those who wish to do harm and exploit the "freedom" that it brings and that does worry me.
> 
> There needs to be a balance between "freedom" (that borders on licence) and direct responsibility and perhaps Bill C-52 went too far in correcting that balance but on the face of it I would say there is a greater threat to citizens and their security and privacy from ne're-do-wells on the the internet than there is from the police, government or other security agencies.
> 
> At any rate C-52 is dead and we can have this debate all over again when new legislation is tabled to replace it when it is introduced. In your favour it may very well be that the government actually heeded some of the concerns of the Privacy Commissioners and that is the reason for why its contents were not included in Bill C-10. Time will tell.
> 
> As Dr. G. would say... Paix mon ami.


I truly hope that the government is considering amending the bill before it's re-introduced. I don't deny that there may well be a need to re-jig things in light of challenges posed by new technology. And I wouldn't want to hamper the police in their legitimate pursuit of criminals. 

For instance I heard a cop from Calgary (forgot his name and position) speaking about the problem of a cell network deleting text message records rather quickly while they may have to wait 24 hours for a judge to issue a warrant. By the time they get that warrant, the evidence may have disappeared.

I understand that in certain jurisdictions they have judges who are essentially on call 24/7 for quick review of requests for warrants. It might be a duty that passes among various judges where they have to take on-call duty for a week every so often. I think it's important to include the accountability and oversight whenever we are talking about CSIS and police powers. We'll see what the government comes up with when it's re-introduced.

Incidentally, I don't pin this one on the Conservatives. John Manley and Paul Martin first pursued this Lawful Access legislation and I don't think what the Cons have put out is essentially different from that. I posted on ehMac about my problem with it and the Liberal government way back then - (including lots of unjustified ad hominem, … ah was I ever that young and reckless?  ) Anyway, I think this issue is more fundamental than political stripes.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Those last two posts are a fine example of all that is right about ehmac. People who hold strong opinions in disagreement on an issue, but with one holding the utmost respect for the other and both willing to apologize when necessary. Take a bow ga and screature, you've set a fine example and I applaud you both for doing so, and I have always respected both of you, in agreement or not. :clap:


I think that ehMac is a special forum in this regard. It's often quite disappointing to comment on other boards. I've offended and been rude here plently in the past. I've learned from others here that taking the high road is best. But I'm sure I'll be reminded if I don't.


----------



## groovetube

I think everyone can be rude, or sarcastic in my case (very sarcastic I know...). Not everyone is honest about it though


----------



## groovetube

and on we go...
CP24- Clement to break silence on G8 legacy fund

So he is going to speak, though when and how he chooses. Hmm. This phrase sounds somewhat similar, though, it's Canadian Citizens he's answering to, not Saddam Hussain...

Though Baird and Clement would likely want everyone to know that they've fully investigated each other, and everything is truly on the up and up. Carry on.


----------



## groovetube

Baird demands gold, drops 'Canada' from Foreign Affairs business card - The Globe and Mail

Man. These cons are just a laugh a minute aren't they.

Pure, comedic, er... gold.


----------



## CubaMark

GT - that's ridiculous. What a petty, petty man. One can only be concerned about how John Baird represents Canada abroad.


----------



## CubaMark

Imagine what would happen among the Tea Partiers south of the border if Secretary of State Clinton had her cards revised with gold embossing and removed the words "United States of America"? They'd have the stake driven into the ground, fine Maine firewood surrounding the base, and some good old Texas gold poured around the base to ensure a good flame... The screams of "Anti-American" and "unpatriotic" would reverberate from coast to coast...

Baird's ego is obviously larger than his cranial capacity...


----------



## groovetube

B.C. drug injection clinic can stay open, Supreme Court rules - The Globe and Mail

Finally. Sanity rules over absolute brainless BS ideology.

The conservatives couldn't a rats arse whether this actually has a positive effect on the problems of drug use, because it goes against their ideology, they're too stupid and stubborn to allow this to continue, and rather spend way more millions and billions in something that has already for decades and decades shown itself to a complete waste of time, money, and people's lives.

Why let the people's lives and safety get in the way of their conservative ideology?


----------



## SINC

The Supreme Court has mades stupid decisions before and will again.


----------



## groovetube

Deciding to protect the ability to do something with proven results that reduce death, and the spread of a deadly disease is stupid versus the ideology that would have us wasting massive sums of taxpayers money on a proven failure... is stupid?

What is it with conservatives that blindly fight for something that's a total failure?

The hypocrisy is similar to the nonsense I saw with conservatives howling about the waste of money for the gun registry, saying it did little to protect our citizens, yet totally onboard with even more money on a crime and punishment agenda that spends waaaaay more money on something already proven south of the border to be a absolute failure?

The truth is, everyone really wants the same things, we want solutions to crime, safety on our streets, drug problems the deaths and the horrible problem of spreading very deadly diseases. Yet the conservatives valiantly stick to wasting vast sums of money on proven failures.

Clearly, the supreme court saw the clear evidence that insite has made a difference in saving lives, and made the right decision based on that. It's anyone's guess, how deciding for this is "stupid".

It's time for new methods of dealing with problems, and tossing out the tired old expensive failures. It truly is, a matter of life and death, but it seems there are those who simply don't care and would rather put their failed beliefs in front of it.


----------



## CubaMark

+1. :clap:


----------



## CubaMark

Tell me, Conservative sympathizers, _*why does John Baird hate Canada?*_  :-(



(Huffington Post Canada)


----------



## screature

Pretty nonsensical conclusion.


----------



## groovetube

what, conservatives wanting to waste billions on failed policies (vs proven results) or Baird wanting cards without Canada on it? (and removing the name of the building he's in because OH MY GAWD!!! he was a liberal.


----------



## SINC

Feeding drugs to users is like force feeding the obese. It only adds to the addiction.


----------



## groovetube

No one is "feeding" anyone drugs. To say so is to completely and totally misunderstand everything about this.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> No one is "feeding" anyone drugs. To say so is to completely and totally misunderstand everything about this.


Sorry:

Injecting drugs in users is like force feeding the obese. It only adds to the addiction.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Sorry:
> 
> Injecting drugs in users is like force feeding the obese. It only adds to the addiction.


Who's injecting? They are only making sure that users injecting themselves are doing it safely.

Justice McLachlin's comments (as quoted in the article) are very interesting.



> She said that the purpose underlying drug laws is to register societal disapproval of drug use, deter drug use and to prevent harm, yet the federal government's actions in withdrawing Insite's exemption contradicted those underlying purposes.


----------



## groovetube

who injecting drugs into users?


----------



## SINC

So, who is paying for and providing the drugs?


----------



## groovetube

not insite.

They simply provide a safer environment for addicts and are able to help keep dirty needles off of our streets and prevent diseases spreads as well as deaths. And has a better chance of reaching addicts to help them to reach recovery from addiction.

Safety for not just the users but the general public who are not users as well.


----------



## SINC

Actually what they are doing then is facilitating illegal drug use. The dealers must be laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## groovetube

no they aren't. Once again, you don't anything about insite do you?

Go learn about it first before making these silly pronouncements that have zero to do with reality.

These addicts would fix on the street anyway. If you think for one second anyone is going to fix simply because insite is there, you have no idea of what you're talking about. An addict, is going to do it regardless of whether there is a dirty hovel in the back alley where he can ditch his used needle for someone else to get stuck by and possibly get a horrible disease, or if there is a safer environment.

I'm fully aware this is a perfect world solution. No one is suggesting this Sinc. But so far, it's one strategy that is getting positive results not just for addicts, but the general population that aren't addicts.

Why is this so difficult to understand?


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Actually what they are doing then is facilitating illegal drug use. The dealers must be laughing all the way to the bank.


The Vancouver Police are in support of Insite's activities.


----------



## groovetube

The dealers are laughing all the way to the bank (if they in fact have one) regardless. They couldn't give a crap about insite, other than the fact that insite may cut into their profits when an addict gets introduced to treatment and they lose their business.


----------



## Sonal

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Insite

Some quotes:



> Additional research in the Canadian Medical Association Journal suggests that the site has reduced public injections, neighbourhood litter, and needle sharing.[15] A study in the journal Addiction indicates that patients at the site have increased their use of detoxification services and long-term addiction treatment.[16] A study in the New England Journal of Medicine echoed this finding.[17] Furthermore, research in The Lancet indicates that the site substantially reduces the sharing of syringes.[18] A study in the journal Substance Abuse Treatment, Prevention, and Policy revealed that local police facilitate use of Insite, especially among high-risk users.





> A 2008 cost-benefit analysis of the site in the Canadian Medical Association Journal observed net-savings of $18 million and an increase of 1175 life-years over ten years.[20] Another cost-benefit analysis published in the International Journal of Drug Policy in 2010 determined that the site prevents 35 cases of HIV and about 3 deaths per year, indicating a yearly net-societal benefit of more than $6 million.[21] A 2011 study in The Lancet found overdose deaths have dropped 35% in the Insite area since it opened, much more than 9% drop elsewhere in Vancouver.[22] An editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal noted that after three years of research "a remarkable consensus that the facility reduces harm to users and the public developed among scientists, criminologists and even the Vancouver Police Department."


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> Baird demands gold, drops 'Canada' from Foreign Affairs business card - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Man. These cons are just a laugh a minute aren't they.
> 
> Pure, comedic, er... gold.


Baird comes off as one of those douchebags from that scene in American Psycho.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Not at all like someone who would secretly conspire to porkbarrel public money...


----------



## jimbotelecom

They all certainly qualify as pigs at the trough.

Oink..oink...oink.


----------



## BigDL

Seems our *"New Conservative Government"* after two weeks on the job in this session of Parliament have had their ideology send them to hell in a hand cart.

Let's see *Challenger Jet and Cormorant Helicopter* woes for Peter, raising the abortion issue, Supreme Court justices unanimously ripped Harper et al a new one over the *"Insite Ruling,"* Clement the peek a boo minister over the *Muskoka Spending Spree* refuses to answer for his actions in the House and the matter ain't going away, then John Baird in defence of Clement, looks foolish, like a trained bird, parroting the same phrases over and over as some sort of incantation to ward off evil. Does it ward off the evil of looking like a doofus? No! He looks even more like a doofus with his *Business Card Caper.* 

He was was given fair warning but did he take some good advise? *No!*

Like all the rest of the *"New Conservative Government"* he went ahead with his gut because he's not wrong, the facts don't matter, the world's wrong. Every Canadian is wrong if they just can't see how wonderful the ideas of the *"New Conservative Government"* truly are.

Now let's hear the scream of Squirrel from the supporters


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

I wonder if the Cons will seek to repeal the Insite decision by crafting new laws around it. If there's a way to do this, I believe they will. The Cons know that many people don't understand the details around the existence of Insite and that their misleading spin of "fostering drug use" has a lot of power.

I think this whole affair is emblematic of the way the Conservatives don't really care about what is good or effective governance. It's 100% about political advantage. 

They are not so stupid that they can't read the reports that declare Insite is a proven enhancer of health, a reducer of societal problems and even a money saver. Their arguments against it look ridiculous and don't even make logical sense. They know this. And they don't care.

They go forward with this agenda because they see a political hot button that they believe they can push for political advantage. It's the same thing with their whole crime agenda, they know it will cost a crapload of money, but it plays well to their base and it plays to the low-information voter. A side benefit of wasting a ton of money with their crime agenda is that they can go forward with further cuts to other things in government they don't like and cripple them as much as politically possible.


----------



## jimbotelecom

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I wonder if the Cons will seek to repeal the Insite decision by crafting new laws around it. If there's a way to do this, I believe they will. The Cons know that many people don't understand the details around the existence of Insite and that their misleading spin of "fostering drug use" has a lot of power.
> 
> I think this whole affair is emblematic of the way the Conservatives don't really care about what is good or effective governance. It's 100% about political advantage.
> 
> They are not so stupid that they can't read the reports that declare Insite is a proven enhancer of health, a reducer of societal problems and even a money saver. Their arguments against it look ridiculous and don't even make logical sense. They know this. And they don't care.
> 
> They go forward with this agenda because they see a political hot button that they believe they can push for political advantage. It's the same thing with their whole crime agenda, they know it will cost a crapload of money, but it plays well to their base and it plays to the low-information voter. A side benefit of wasting a ton of money with their crime agenda is that they can go forward with further cuts to other things in government they don't like and cripple them as much as politically possible.


I have to agree with the above. This should be routine practice for about 4 years.

C'mon Stevie show us no mercy!


----------



## groovetube

well we already witnessed people here saying completely untrue things. All they have to do is go on a big campaign to fill people's heads with all the same BS lies, and people will just believe it, and spout it.

It's open and transparent doncha know.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Some relevant info from the VPD blog of a Vancouver beat cop who works the area of the Downtown Eastside and Insite:



> The solution to the scourge of the Downtown Eastside seemed more black and white when I began working down here. I figured then, as some do now, that the salve for this neighbourhood’s problems was strict enforcement and harsh penalties for people who commit crimes, regardless how petty or severe.
> 
> Put a police officer on every corner. Show zero-tolerance. Send a drug addict to jail enough times and he’ll eventually clean up. If not, he’ll at least move out of the area. Right?
> 
> Not so much.
> 
> That hard-line view is shared by many, including a few who e-mailed to criticize my recent blog post in which I describe catching two people making a drug deal, then letting both walk away without putting them in jail.
> 
> While there are few things in this job that are as satisfying as putting a bully, a cheater or a predator behind bars, *it’s painfully obvious that we simply are not going to arrest our way out of this crime and drug epidemic*. The Downtown Eastside already boasts the highest number of arrests in the city. Still, it continues to be the most violent and drug-adled neighbourhood by far.


To the Conservatives and Harper, -- listen to what the people in the trenches say. The War on Drugs approach has utterly failed, bashing harm reduction approaches like Insite will only result in further suffering. The Cons are wasting money and wasting lives.


----------



## MacDoc

These Cons are just flat out stupid ideologues with out a shred of common sense or respect for the courts or the Canadian Political system....

I smell another Mulloonie face plant down the road and a well deserved generation in the wilderness when these clowns get tossed......

I'll be long gone to a more sensible and well governed nation.....with the kind of government structure we SHOULD have and COULD have.

Harper you are an arrogant ass.


----------



## SINC

^

Thank you for yet another belligerent and ignorant post. Sadly it is typical, assured advertiser or not. Assured a** perhaps is the better term?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Thank you for yet another belligerent and ignorant post. Sadly it is typical, assured advertiser or not. Assured a** perhaps is the better term?


ASSured Advertiser.


----------



## CubaMark

*squirrel!*


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Thank you for yet another belligerent and ignorant post. Sadly it is typical, assured advertiser or not. Assured a** perhaps is the better term?


why? I've seen you conservatives say the very same things about the liberals over and over again. Then someone starts calling someone an ASS? Sure sounds like sour grapes to me. Must be hard to watch your team pull the same crap you all belly ached about from the liberals.

I have no doubt that after Canadians have watched the conservatives now with their majority for a while they'll soon see them for the liars and big spenders they really are. It's already pretty clear even to some conservatives. Imagine what the red torys and the fence sitters will feel after a while of this nonsense.


----------



## groovetube

still find it amazing that not one conservative, who howled to no end about the sponsorship scandal, has said one little peep about the clement 50 million scandal brewing.
Huntsville mayor plays hide-and-seek over G8 spending


----------



## CubaMark

Heh...I'm not surprised by that at all. Typical.

Meanwhile... from the ever-on-the-nose Bruce MacKinnon of the Halifax Chronicle-Herald:



(MacKinnon)


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> still find it amazing that not one conservative, who howled to no end about the sponsorship scandal, has said one little peep about the clement 50 million scandal brewing.
> Huntsville mayor plays hide-and-seek over G8 spending


What's truly amazing is that modern politics is less about punishing wrongdoing and more about choosing sides. Apparently people don't care what politicians are doing unless of course it's the other guys who are doing it.

Sad for all of us.


----------



## groovetube

Yeah the conservative supporters are totally silent about this.


----------



## CubaMark

*A further word on InSite:*

*"Disappointed" Tories to review top court's drug-injection ruling*



> Libby Davies, the New Democrat MP whose riding includes the Downtown Eastside where Insite is located, was delighted with the court ruling.
> 
> “Since it opened in 2003 in my riding, fatal overdoses have dropped by a third. More people get treatment as Insite is there to connect people with the services they need. Today the people who use this service have had their voices heard,” Ms. Davies told the House.
> 
> “The Supreme Court agrees, health professionals agree, international health experts agree,” she said. “Will the Conservatives admit their failed approach and acknowledge that Insite protects public health and saves lives? Will they stop being the barrier to this very important service?”


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## groovetube

I read about an Ottawa doctor wanting to set one up as well, and the Ottawa police chief said he visited inSite and that the surrounding area "was a mess".

I guess he's either never heard of Hastings and what it was like even before inSite or he's just another liar.


----------



## CubaMark

*PM's office kept MacKay in dark about 2007 Afghan review*





> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office was so seized with controlling public opinion of Canada's shooting war in southern Afghanistan that even Defence Minister Peter MacKay wasn't always in the loop, says a new book about the conflict.
> 
> The Savage War, by Canadian Press defence writer and Afghanistan correspondent Murray Brewster, paints a portrait of a PMO keen to preserve its tenuous grip on minority power and desperate to control the message amid dwindling public upport for the war.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

dwindling public *upport* for the war.


----------



## MacDoc

I seem to recall some nattering on about the Cons and how the dollar was high - like 1.05 - because of their sterling managment of the economy......hmmmmm










nother failed meme from the right.


----------



## Macfury

A five-day sampling? Desperate, man. The currency is holding up well despite world turbulence. Only a sudden rush to buy U.S. dollars in the face of stinking Euros and other weak currencies is in evidence.


----------



## groovetube

hmm. no sudden rush to buy Canadian?


----------



## Max

Some weather out there, eh?


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Some weather out there, eh?


http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/20113-hows-weather.html


----------



## Max

It's pretty good where I am, if not a tad gloomy. But in this thread, the air feels a bit stale. Kind of odd, considering how blustery it is. Wait - did you just see that cobweb blow by? _Tarrrrrnation._


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> It's pretty good where I am, if not a tad gloomy. But in this thread, the air feels a bit stale. Kind of odd, considering how blustery it is. Wait - did you just see that cobweb blow by? _Tarrrrrnation._


Strange. How do you know it doesn't only smells stale when you pop in?


----------



## Max

You ask me how I know, not _if_ I know. Velly interestink.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> You ask me how I know, not _if_ I know. Velly interestink.


Goodnight, Lucy.


----------



## Max

See you, oh dead avatar'd one.


----------



## MacDoc

Well let's interject a little real world tale of woe thanks to the right wing ideologues....



> *Iceland's Economic Meltdown Is a Big Flashing Warning Sign
> Iceland followed the prescriptions of a right-wing ideologue, and its economy paid a severe price.*


informative read 
Iceland's Economic Meltdown Is a Big Flashing Warning Sign | Economy | AlterNet

snip



> It turns out that Iceland, despite its coalition governments and Nordic social values, became a poster child for neoconservative economic policies inspired by Milton Friedman during the past decade.


trifecta eh?? _the horror, the horror...._


----------



## groovetube

just curious about how well those big corporate tax cuts were doing for job creation.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc--why are you posting a THREE-YEAR OLD article?


----------



## groovetube

information that is more than 3 days old apparently, is invalid.

Especially if it is information one doesn't like.


----------



## CubaMark

That's always been the problem with the right-wingers..._ no concept of historical perspective_. Doomed to repeat their failures...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> That's always been the problem with the right-wingers..._ no concept of historical perspective_. Doomed to repeat their failures...


Who, specifically, is emulating Iceland?


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> That's always been the problem with the right-wingers..._ no concept of historical perspective_. Doomed to repeat their failures...


it appears to have confused them yes.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> That's always been the problem with the right-wingers..._ no concept of historical perspective_. Doomed to repeat their failures...


Really? What about the repeated failures of communism.... These kind of gross generalizations are juvenile especially coming from an educated man.


----------



## groovetube

Since we don't have a communist party within a stones throw of a chance in hell of power, nor any party that can even be remotely be considered "communist", I suppose we're ok in that regard.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Since we don't have a communist party within a stones throw of a chance in hell of power, nor any party that can even be remotely be considered "communist", I suppose we're ok in that regard.


Wasn't addressing you.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Wasn't addressing you.


Should have PM'ed CM then.


----------



## groovetube

-looks around-

still a public forum it seems.


----------



## screature

Just sayin...


----------



## groovetube

I commented on the post. 

just sayin too.


----------



## i-rui

lol at left wing = communism.

so i guess that means right wing = fascism?

How has that political system performed historically?


----------



## groovetube

I said as much but it wasn't apparently very well received.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> lol at left wing = communism.
> 
> so i guess that means right wing = fascism?
> 
> How has that political system performed historically?


Communism is as far left as you can go...But there have been plenty of left wing fascist/totalitarian states if you know your history... fascism exists both in right or left wing factions so your point is not valid.

And actually fascism/totalitarianism has performed quite well in terms of longevity when the state is small enough.... just ask CubaMark.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Communism is as far left as you can go...But there have been plenty of left wing fascist/totalitarian states if you know your history... fascism exists both in right or left wing factions so your point is not valid.


oh, i fully admit my statement was silly. i was just expanding on the ignorance of your original post.




screature said:


> And actually fascism/totalitarianism has performed quite well in terms of longevity when the state is small enough.... just ask CubaMark.


so Cuba is fascist when you want it to be? 



screature said:


> Really? What about the repeated failures of communism....


but not communist when it doesn't suit your argument?


----------



## CubaMark

Yet another right-of-centre North American who can't see past 50 years' worth of Washington & Miami propaganda...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> oh, i fully admit my statement was silly.* i was just expanding on the ignorance of your original post.
> *
> 
> so Cuba is fascist when you want it to be?
> 
> but not communist when it doesn't suit your argument?


Ignorance? Hardly. Cuba is a totalitarian regime, it has had some longevity as I said. It does not mean that because one communist state has continued to exist under a totalitarian regime that communism as a whole has not been a failure and repeatedly.

That you seem to be unable to grasp that difference points to your ignorance or at least lack of ability to appreciate logical discourse.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Yet another right-of-centre North American who can't see past 50 years' worth of Washington & Miami propaganda...


Hog wash... Cuba *is* a totalitarian state. Period. You are pretty smug for someone who throws around political generalizations like a clown throwing candy at a 3 year old's birthday party.


----------



## groovetube

I think the fantastic revelation here seems to be that communism, is a failure.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Hog wash... Cuba *is* a totalitarian state. Period.


Sure, but they feast on sugar cane and dance the night away. Paradise!


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Hog wash... Cuba *is* a totalitarian state. Period. You are pretty smug for someone who throws around political generalizations like a clown throwing candy at a 3 year old's birthday party.


Screature, I beg to differ. Cuba has problems - economically, politically, socially - but its electoral and governance system is as legitimate as any other on the planet. The participation of its citizens in policymaking puts Canada to shame.

One illustrative example: in 1993-4, during the worst years of the post-USSR collapse when Cuba lost some 85% of its international trade, the government came up with an austerity plan. The plan was introduced at the National Assembly (Parliament) and soundly rejected by delegates. This set off a months-long process of public meetings and workplace consultations involving Cubans from all walks of life in determining how they were going to take on the economic restructuring needed to survive the crisis.

The plan they enacted was bottom-up, not Fidel-down. One of the most important aspects of the austerity measures taken -and the reason it worked without causing massive social upheaval- is that the people had input... ownership... of the process.

When was the last time you were asked by the government how you'd like to see Canada set economic policy?

The worker's consultations are nothing new in Cuba - citizens elect representatives from their neighbourhoods in a democratic, secret ballot. They have the right of recall. Delegates are required by law to report back to their constituents regularly in public meetings and to be present in their constituency office with set hours.

It's not a perfect system, but it's an entirely valid one.

The problem with most outsider is that they are basing their evaluation of Cuba on "presumed knowledge" - that 50 years of sometimes blatant, often subtle, propaganda that we've had shoved down our throats by U.S. media, politics, culture.

How much first-hand knowledge, or knowledge based on reading anything other than National Review, do you have of Cuba's electoral system?


----------



## CubaMark

*Getting back to Canadian politics....*

*Canada News: NDP wins easily in Manitoba*



> Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger led his New Democrats to their *fourth-consecutive majority* Tuesday...





> The NDP racked up a convincing win over Hugh McFadyen’s Progressive Conservatives. McFadyen’s party went down to defeat despite running neck and neck with the NDP in the popular vote.
> 
> The NDP used its popularity in Winnipeg to catapult itself to victory. The party was leading or elected in all but a handful of the city’s 31 constituencies...





> On billboards, television and in print, the NDP accused McFadyen of having a secret agenda to privatize Crown corporations and cut health care.
> 
> All three parties promised to hire more doctors and nurses to improve health care and to put more police officers on the streets to fight the province’s high crime rate.



(Toronto Star)


----------



## CubaMark

*Claude Doughty, Huntsville Mayor: Clement Emails Embarrassing Vows To Use Phone In Future*



> The mayor of Huntsville, Ont., says he'll be careful to avoid leaving an email trail next time he does business with a federal minister.
> 
> Claude Doughty was embarrassed when the NDP dug up voluminous email correspondence between him and Tony Clement, now Treasury Board president, about the controversial G8 legacy fund.
> 
> He says he considers the emails to be private conversations and he'll use the telephone in future to avoid leaving a record of such discussions.





> Clement used his personal email account, which is not covered by the federal Access to Information Act, to converse with Doughty about the legacy fund. Opposition MPs have accused Clement of deliberately using his personal account to "cover his tracks."
> 
> However, the NDP managed to uncover the email trail by using Ontario's freedom-of-information legislation to access municipal records.


(Huffington Post Canada)


----------



## groovetube

yes you sure don't want any paper trails of dealing with the federal government, that's for sure.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Screature, I beg to differ...
> 
> It's not a perfect system, but it's an entirely valid one.


Going to have to agree to disagree. As long as they have a Dictator and a one party system they are a totalitarian regime... you can dress it up however you want it and call it "legitimate" it doesn't make it so, well maybe it does for you but for the rest of the world's democracies not even close.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Not often, actually rarely, however, this is one example where I do agree with your overly generalized assertion but only in terms of the statement that you made that I emphasized and not your complete post.


for anyone suggesting that PMBs rarely represent party doctrine:

Conservatives set to table bill forcing unions to open books - The Globe and Mail


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Going to have to agree to disagree. As long as they have a Dictator and a one party system they are a totalitarian regime... you can dress it up however you want it and call it "legitimate" it doesn't make it so, well maybe it does for you but for the rest of the world's democracies not even close.


We do disagree. Given the immediate and constant aggression by the USA against Cuba (little things, like invasion, terrorist attacks...), one can see why Castro continued to be appointed head of government. Even the US State department has admitted that if elections had been called in the mid-1990s, Castro would have won handily.

And it's not a "one-party system". It's a no-party system. The Communist Party is forbidden by law from endorsing / promoting any candidate for office.

Anyway - I've explained this to you guys often enough - search the debates between myself and the late MacNutt 

We *could* get into a debate about what you mean by the rest of the "world's democracies" when it's become more than apparent in recent years that there is no real democracy, there are countries ruled by corporations, regardless of what the mass of the citizenry desires. But... maybe we should keep this thread on topic?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> for anyone suggesting that PMBs rarely represent party doctrine:
> 
> Conservatives set to table bill forcing unions to open books - The Globe and Mail


Well first off your actual initial statement was:



> PMBs often overlap with government agenda


And they rarely do overlap. Look at the numbers of PMBs compared to agenda items for any government throughout Parliamentary history instead of focusing on a handful of PMBs... there is simply no evidence that "PMBs often overlap with government agenda".

Of course PMBs often reflect party doctrine, that goes without saying, a governments agenda and party doctrine are not the same thing, but by all means keeping digging yourself in further.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> We *could* get into a debate about what you mean by the rest of the "world's democracies" when it's become more than apparent in recent years that there is no real democracy, there are countries ruled by corporations, regardless of what the mass of the citizenry desires.


Sez you. A pathetic defense of Cuba.


----------



## groovetube

I think the statement's contents is rather obvious to anyone, regardles of your attempt to paint as a mere "pathetic defence of Cuba".

I would say your attempt at turning it around was rather pathetic, at best.

Oh right. I forgot you still run around chanting "freedom" egged on by these corporations.

Good boy! You tell everyone we want, freedom!"


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I think the statement's contents is rather obvious to anyone, regardles of your attempt to paint as a mere "pathetic defence of Cuba".
> 
> I would say your attempt at turning it around was rather pathetic, at best.
> 
> Oh right. I forgot you still run around chanting "freedom" egged on by these corporations.
> 
> Good boy! You tell everyone we want, freedom!"


You do know if you stop chanting Freedom either CSIS or the RCMP will be pounding down your door?


----------



## i-rui

CubaMark said:


> We *could* get into a debate about what you mean by the rest of the "world's democracies" when it's become more than apparent in recent years that there is no real democracy, there are countries ruled by corporations, regardless of what the mass of the citizenry desires. But... maybe we should keep this thread on topic?


I agree with this. People point to communism "failing", but i think most people who are proponents of it would say those states failed because they don't hold true to the original ideal, or haven't been allowed to by external forces (and i say this as someone who is center-left...not a communist).

The reason "capitalism" has "worked" *so far* is because it's never been "pure" capitalism, but instead has been tempered with socialist values & regulations. There's been a balance. If we were to have a totally free market it would fail faster than communism, because greed would corrupt the ideal. We see this today as our democracies get more and more corrupted by money, our society suffers more & more.

Just as a true communist state has never existed, we will never get a *real* free market, only crony capitalism.

(sorry for going off topic).


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> I agree with this. People point to communism "failing", but i think most people who are proponents of it would say those states failed because they don't hold true to the original ideal, or haven't been allowed to by external forces (and i say this as someone who is center-left...not a communist).
> 
> The reason "capitalism" has "worked" *so far* is because it's never been "pure" capitalism, but instead has been tempered with socialist values & regulations. There's been a balance. If we were to have a totally free market it would fail faster than communism, because greed would corrupt the ideal. We see this today as our democracies get more and more corrupted by money, our society suffers more & more.
> 
> Just as a true communist state has never existed, we will never get a *real* free market, only crony capitalism.
> 
> (sorry for going off topic).


I disagree. Most "socialist" values hobble progress and the creation of wealth. Socialism never stemmed greed or even blunted it. Acquisitiveness is human nature. Socialism merely forces people to turn their acquisitiveness to government which responds with crony capitalism--or redistribution of wealth.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I disagree. Most "socialist" values hobble progress and the creation of wealth *for the wealthy*. .


fixed that for you.


----------



## Sonal

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.


That's a good one. Do you have an attribution? I'd like to add it to my collection of quotes.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.


ha ha ha ha. Nice one.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Going to have to agree to disagree. As long as they have a Dictator and a one party system they are a totalitarian regime... you can dress it up however you want it and call it "legitimate" it doesn't make it so, well maybe it does for you but for the rest of the world's democracies not even close.


So the reality of Alberta is also a totalitarian regime?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I disagree. Most "socialist" values hobble progress and the creation of wealth. Socialism never stemmed greed or even blunted it. Acquisitiveness is human nature. Socialism merely forces people to turn their acquisitiveness to government which responds with crony capitalism--or redistribution of wealth.


So what is going on in China, "totalitarian capitalism"?


----------



## groovetube

dammit dl yer confusing the issue.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> So the reality of Alberta is also a totalitarian regime?


That comment speaks volumes about your ignorance of the Alberta political scene. It has more choices in terms of parties than most Canadian provinces. Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, Alberta Party, Wildrose Alliance Party, Alberta Social Credit Party, Separation Party of Alberta, Communist Party and the Evergreen Party.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> That comment speaks volumes about your ignorance of the Alberta political scene. It has more choices in terms of parties than most Canadian provinces. Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, Alberta Party, Wildrose Alliance Party, Alberta Social Credit Party, Separation Party of Alberta, Communist Party and the Evergreen Party.


Well! Your comments would have one to consider, a stereo type, is not reality and having knowledge is more important than mere perception.

So CubaMark has a better understanding of Cuba, and you have better understanding of Alberta, than I or many others have. Perhaps we all should take a hint from nature or God, listen or study (use our ear or eyes twice as often) more than (we use our mouth) we speak.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> So the reality of Alberta is also a totalitarian regime?


What a nonsensical statement.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Well! Your comments would have one to consider, a stereo type, is not reality and having knowledge is more important than mere perception.
> 
> *So CubaMark has a better understanding of Cuba*, and you have better understanding of Alberta, than I or many others have. Perhaps we all should take a hint from nature or God, listen or study (use our ear or eyes twice as often) more than (we use our mouth) we speak.


So you and he seem to believe...


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.


I love it! :lmao: :clap:


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> That's a good one. Do you have an attribution? I'd like to add it to my collection of quotes.


Saw it unattributed on slashdot years ago (among the random quotes at the bottom of the page) and it stuck with me. Google attributes it at best to a Polish proverb. I'd go with Unknown.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> So you and he seem to believe...


I may be wrong, but I believe CM has a Ph.D. in the feild of latin american studies, and has studied Cuba extensively. While that does not automatically mean everything he thinks about Cuba is true, it certainly means his opinions on the subject are worth serious consideration. Do you bring any special expertise to the discussion? (Genuine question, not sarcasm).


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> So you and he seem to believe...


No I accept at face value CubaMark and Sinc have studied the matters under discussion and acquiesce to their superior information.

I have never been to Cuba and have lived in Alberta for 10 days or so.

Perceptions of place, culture and society form the bases of stereo type and not fact.

If someone wants to believe in stereo types on the bases of "there is a reason for stereo types," well good have at 'er.

Proof goes a long way to my understandings and anecdotes, in my opinion, don't prove very much.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *No I accept at face value *CubaMark and Sinc have studied the matters under discussion and acquiesce to their superior information...


Such is your choice...


----------



## CubaMark

So, getting back to CANADIAN politics...

*Ontario Election Results: McGuinty Wins Third Victory, But Minority Or Majority Status Still Uncertain*



> Ontario Liberal Leader Dalton McGuinty has led his party to a third election victory, but it remains to be seen if he will "three-peat" a majority government win.
> 
> Most analysts and polls had said they expected Premier Dalton McGuinty to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and pull off the first Liberal "three-peat" in more than a century.


(HuffingtonPost.ca)


----------



## mrjimmy

What's the matter Timmy?

Underestimate the intelligence of Ontario voters?


----------



## MacDoc

So much for the trifecta....
very close now to majority Elected or Leading in 54


Read more: Ontario Election 2011 - Riding
​


----------



## i-rui

a big assist goes to Rob Ford for the Liberal victory.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> a big assist goes to Rob Ford for the Liberal victory.


Wonder if Timmy gets invited to next year's BBQ...


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> a big assist goes to Rob Ford for the Liberal victory.


Yeah really. So much for "ford nation".

I've said it for some time. I don't think Harper could afford to have hudak running Ontario.

I think I'm right on that.


----------



## groovetube

Gawd. David Peterson on tv.

I think I hate that guy more than Harris.


----------



## Macfury

Four more years of economic malaise in Ontario, which continues to lag every province in economic recovery. Thank goodness Harper is in charge of the country.


----------



## groovetube

Oh yeah the countries finances are going great.

You whined about a skyrocketing debt and economic problems in Ontario? 

Yet you are completely silent and very happy about harpers out control spending.

Sorry but you have zero, credibility. None, whatsoever.


----------



## keebler27

as unhappy I am about a liberal party which is going to drive Ontario into the land of Greece, I'm more upset at the lack of voters. That is just shameful and pathetic.

I've never 'bled' any particular party colour - always voted for who I thought would do the trick, but I can't remember a politician so blatantly lying about his platform than McGinty in the last one. I realize money has to come from somewhere, but his creative ability to come up with sketchy taxes is maddening.

And that absolute BS promise to provide tax breaks for hiring immigrants over Canadians is beyond maddening. It's downright traitorous it is!!!!! (and a major suck up to the voting immigrant population). Are you telling me my own kids will take a 2nd seat just b/c they're BORN here!!!?!?! It should be an even hiring process based on skill and experience, not where you are from. what an a$$!!!!!

I can't believe ppl voted for a numbskull like that.


----------



## groovetube

They voted for a numbskull federally who lied his arse off about being better with money yet spends like a druken sailor, so it isn't a surprise they repeat the same pattern provincially.


----------



## keebler27

groovetube said:


> Oh yeah the countries finances are going great.
> 
> You whined about a skyrocketing debt and economic problems in Ontario?
> 
> Yet you are completely silent and very happy about harpers out control spending.
> 
> Sorry but you have zero, credibility. None, whatsoever.


every country around the world is hurting right now. in fact, we are doing 'ok' compared to most.

As for Ontario, we were doing just fine until the liberals took over and we are headed right towards where Greece is. Watch and see.

I hope to hell i'm wrong, but Mr. Taxman likes to tax our a&&es creatively. Next up - carbon tax? wait....your taxes go up if your vehicle is a certain colour.


----------



## Macfury

keebler27 said:


> every country around the world is hurting right now. in fact, we are doing 'ok' compared to most.
> 
> As for Ontario, we were doing just fine until the liberals took over and we are headed right towards where Greece is. Watch and see.
> 
> I hope to hell i'm wrong, but Mr. Taxman likes to tax our a&&es creatively. Next up - carbon tax? wait....your taxes go up if your vehicle is a certain colour.


Ontario is actually a significant drag on the rest of the country at this point. Only under McGuinty have we ever had our hand extended for transfer payments from the other provinces. What an embarrassment.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> They voted for a numbskull federally who lied his arse off about being better with money yet spends like a druken sailor, so it isn't a surprise they repeat the same pattern provincially.


Don't forget a certain red-faced blowhard getting them all stirred up with his lies about some alleged brown sauce...

Hudak is such a tool. Good to see him put in his place. I'm looking forward to the marriage of red and orange.

Trifecta_ this._


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Ontario is actually a significant drag on the rest of the country at this point. Only under McGuinty have we ever had our hand extended for transfer payments from the other provinces. What an embarrassment.


Interesting. It was not until off-shore oil revenues started to flow into NL that we became a have province and are now in the position of putting more back into the transfer payment pool than we take out. Thus, ON helped up here in NL during out times of need, so it is only fair that NL helps out ON during her time of need. Hopefully, ON shall regain the status of being a have province before too long. We shall see.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I'm in the Ottawa riding where the agrarian libertarian won his riding essentially proving that the PC's could run a skunk (and they did) and it would still win. They celebrated by driving their ATV's around in a circle and then headin' out to the country to fire some rounds at bilingual signs on the highway. Whodat would be proud. 

I'm pleased that the Libs were reduced to a minority. The Libs did not deserve to be reelected but given the mediocre opposition a minority was the best outcome for all. Also happy that the Greens were reduced to less than 3% of the vote after they chose to abandon the environment (what were they thinking?) in their platform.

Whodat managed to alienate, take your pick, ethnic votes, urbanites, gays, teachers, while putting forward no plan of his own. Thanks go to PM Harper for the ol' triple play comment and to Robbie Ford who gave Whodat the kiss of death at an Etobikokan BBQ.
Thank you Toronto! 

The NDP climbed into a position that they can now start picking Lib votes out of their carcass for the next election. 

Now Ontario awaits the Drummond report and it will not be pretty.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. It was not until off-shore oil revenues started to flow into NL that we became a have province and are now in the position of putting more back into the transfer payment pool than we take out. Thus, ON helped up here in NL during out times of need, so it is only fair that NL helps out ON during her time of need. Hopefully, ON shall regain the status of being a have province before too long. We shall see.


It would be fair if Ontario were actually doing something to help itself.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> The NDP climbed into a position that they can now start picking Lib votes of their carcass for the next election.


Must be a pretty exciting day to be an NDP supporter--third place, even with the "Great Orange Tide" that supposedly favoured them in this election. 

A decade from now, perhaps, when new voters will have no concept of what it's like to suffer under an NDP government in Ontario.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. It was not until off-shore oil revenues started to flow into NL that we became a have province and are now in the position of putting more back into the transfer payment pool than we take out. Thus, ON helped up here in NL during out times of need, so it is only fair that NL helps out ON during her time of need. Hopefully, ON shall regain the status of being a have province before too long. We shall see.


Thank god for the rock! Ontario is paying 10 billion dollars per year in interest on the debt alone, you'll need to send over a lot. 

Just watch McQuinty, post election reality will set in and he'll be worse than what Harris was blamed for trying to manage the debt.

Probably better for the Cons that they didn't get in...LOL.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Probably better for the Cons that they didn't get in...LOL.


I tend to agree. Let McGuinty handle his own devastating record.


----------



## groovetube

keebler27 said:


> every country around the world is hurting right now. in fact, we are doing 'ok' compared to most.
> 
> As for Ontario, we were doing just fine until the liberals took over and we are headed right towards where Greece is. Watch and see.
> 
> I hope to hell i'm wrong, but Mr. Taxman likes to tax our a&&es creatively. Next up - carbon tax? wait....your taxes go up if your vehicle is a certain colour.


And who put the country's finances on a good footing so these jackarses can spend their faces off?

Yeah, not Harper. Eventually, that bank account will run dry and reality will set in.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I tend to agree. Let McGuinty handle his own devastating record.


Didn't work very well with the Shrub but hey I know y'all need to try to find something hopeful about that sea of quicksand...


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Didn't work very well with the Shrub but hey I know y'all need to try to find something hopeful about that sea of quicksand...


Hard for Shrub to take a telling when the follow-up act topped him.


----------



## CubaMark

*Again, getting back to Canadian politics... (sheesh!)*

Tuesday could be an interesting day in Newfoundland & Labrador:

*NDP Aims To Replace Liberals As Second Party In N.L.*





> Recent polls have consistently suggested that the Tories led by Kathy Dunderdale are set for an easy win Tuesday. But they have also suggested a tripling of popular support for the NDP in recent months as Liberal popularity has faded, putting Michael in contention for Opposition leader if that momentum translates into more seats.
> 
> It would be a historic tilt in a province where power has shifted between Conservative and Liberal powerhouses led by the likes of Danny Williams, Clyde Wells and Joey Smallwood.


(Huffington Post)


----------



## Macfury

Well, it wouldn't much matter to me who came in second, as long as the NDP is out of power.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Well, it wouldn't much matter to me who came in second, as long as the NDP is out of power.


What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?


The free flow of oil from Newfoundland.


----------



## groovetube

thats what newfoundlanders are most concerned about?


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Again, getting back to Canadian politics... (sheesh!)*
> 
> Tuesday could be an interesting day in Newfoundland & Labrador:
> 
> *NDP Aims To Replace Liberals As Second Party In N.L.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Huffington Post)


It just might happen, CM. The Liberals have played their "give money to rural NL and not the St.John's area", even though we have about 30% of our provincial population in this area. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?


Health care is the #1 issue and how our provincial money is being spent on the other provincially-funded services provided by the government (e.g., education).


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The free flow of oil from Newfoundland.


Not quite, Macfury. I don't want to break your record of alway being correct, but on this point, you are not correct. One, health care is our number one issue, and we don't have a "free flow of oil" from NL ........ electricity to Quebec, maybe, but not oil.

Sorry, Macfury. Guess you are going to have to start your record of always being correct on all matters political, economic, scientific, religious and social starting with your next posting. Bonne chance, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder, Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry, Macfury. Guess you are going to have to start your record of always being correct on all matters political, economic, scientific, religious and social starting with your next posting. Bonne chance, mon ami.


:lmao:

Well played good Doctor.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Not quite, Macfury. I don't want to break your record of alway being correct, but on this point, you are not correct. One, health care is our number one issue, and we don't have a "free flow of oil" from NL ........ electricity to Quebec, maybe, but not oil.
> 
> Sorry, Macfury. Guess you are going to have to start your record of always being correct on all matters political, economic, scientific, religious and social starting with your next posting. Bonne chance, mon ami.


Unless I misunderstood the question, I thought I was being asked why _I_ cared about how the "body politic" would vote in the provincial election.


> What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?


I don't believe I was being asked to guess what Newfoundland voters were thinking in ensuring the NDP does not form the next government.


----------



## groovetube

This would pretty much explain 90% of your posts.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The free flow of oil from Newfoundland.





BigDL said:


> What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?





Macfury said:


> Unless I misunderstood the question, I thought I was being asked why _I_ cared about how the "body politic" would vote in the provincial election.
> 
> 
> I don't believe I was being asked to guess what Newfoundland voters were thinking in ensuring the NDP does not form the next government.


Macfury, BigDL asked what might be the "over arching concern for the body politic in NL", to which you replied "The free flow of oil from Newfoundland". That is incorrect. So, take your lumps and move on. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Well played good Doctor.


Now, now, mrj, don't hit a person when they are down. Everyone has the right to be incorrect every so often, even Macfury.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Macfury, BigDL asked what might be the "over arching concern for the body politic in NL", to which you replied "The free flow of oil from Newfoundland". That is incorrect. So, take your lumps and move on. Paix, mon ami.


The phrasing was ambiguous. I took it to mean, what was my overarching concern for the body politic in Newfoundland-i.e., why did I care how they voted. I answered that question. 

If the question had been phrased "what is the over arching concern _of _the body politic in NL" I would have declined to answer.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The phrasing was ambiguous. I took it to mean, what was my overarching concern for the body politic in Newfoundland-i.e., why did I care how they voted. I answered that question.
> 
> If the question had been phrased "what is the over arching concern _of _the body politic in NL" I would have declined to answer.


Don't dig your hole any deeper, Macfury. The question was straight-forward, and you answered it incorrectly. All three NL party leaders would agree, along with the major polling results just completed -- the "free flow of oil from Newfoundland" is NOT the major concern for most of us here in NL.

As I said, take your lumps from being incorrect this one time and move on.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?





Macfury said:


> The phrasing was ambiguous. I took it to mean, what was my overarching concern for the body politic in Newfoundland-i.e., why did I care how they voted. I answered that question.
> 
> If the question had been phrased "what is the over arching concern _of _the body politic in NL" I would have declined to answer.


I found an out for you, Macfury. You just misread the question, reading "oil" where the term "eletricity" should have been placed. That is a major issue in our campaign, especially when you factor in the cost of Muskrat Falls. Of course, you just put in the word "Newfoundland" and Muskrat Falls is up in the Labrador part of Newfoundland and Labrador.

So, we may have to go to instant replay and see what the judges rule as to whether or not you were incorrect for the second time since you joined ehMacLand (your #1 miscue was stating that FDR caused WWI).

Judges ............ a ruling SVP.


----------



## Macfury

Dr. G, with all due respect, I'm not that concerned about the electricity at this point. Just the oil.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dr. G, with all due respect, I'm not that concerned about the electricity at this point. Just the oil.


True ........ but the question was "What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?" It is NOT the "free flow of oil", but rather health care and the issue of electricity.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> True ........ but the question was "What would be the over arching concern for the body politic in NL anyway?" It is NOT the "free flow of oil", but rather health care and the issue of electricity.


Dr. G: If I misunderstood the question that would be one possible answer. Though why anyone would ask me about the concerns of Newfoundland voters is beyond me.


----------



## groovetube

It seems atom smasher answered his own question, but fails to see that not everything is based around him.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder, Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Pretty stupid editorial cartoon obviously form someone who hasn't read Bill C-11 or in it's previous incarnation Bill C-32. The only people who could possibly go to prison from the provisions in Bill C-11 would be those conducting large scale commercial pirating operations.

This editorial cartoon and the posting of it is a complete FAIL.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Pretty stupid editorial cartoon obviously form someone who hasn't read Bill C-11 or in it's previous incarnation Bill C-32. The only people who could possibly go to prison from the provisions in Bill C-11 would be those conducting large scale commercial pirating operations.
> 
> This editorial cartoon and the posting of it is a complete FAIL.


It's a great "larf" for the uninformed, though. Conservatives! HARRRR!


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Pretty stupid editorial cartoon obviously form someone who hasn't read Bill C-11 or in it's previous incarnation Bill C-32. The only people who could possibly go to prison from the provisions in Bill C-11 would be those conducting large scale commercial pirating operations.
> 
> This editorial cartoon and the posting of it is a complete FAIL.


I didn't see anywhere in the cartoon where it specified who were going to jail in particular.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I didn't see anywhere in the cartoon where it specified who were going to jail in particular.


The cartoon infers that a large number of people will be going to jail and as screature correctly points out. The copyright bill has no provisions to make that possible. The cartoon totally misses the mark as the cartoonist has no knowledge of the bill and is therefore making a false statement.


----------



## groovetube

Sort of like how the conservatives tries to directly infer liberals are for child molesters.

Yeah I can see how everyone is against the conservatives and are totally unfair about it.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The cartoon infers that a large number of people will be going to jail and as screature correctly points out. The copyright bill has no provisions to make that possible. The cartoon totally misses the mark as the cartoonist has no knowledge of the bill and is therefore making a false statement.


Exactly. It's a great laugh for the rabble.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Exactly. It's a great laugh for the rabble.


Not to mention it is a really bad rendition of Minister Moore.... he should have had about at least 50 lbs on Harper, be obviously younger looking and be a lot taller. 

As a matter of fact if one looks closely all the cartoonist did was take the same body slap on a different head and ad an arm holding up the "news" paper to make Minister Moore physically different from Harper really lame and lazy.

And before the usual suspects chime in, in the previous Parliament Moore was one of the few MPs and especially Ministers to vote against the consensus of Cabinet so the "appropriateness" of their "physical" similarities is less true (when applied metaphoricaly, even though I doubt the cartoonist has the intellectual fortitude to even think of such a thing based on the inane inaccuracy of the editorial content of his cartoon) for Moore than it is for any other Con Minister.

Complete laziness and editorial cartoon FAIL.


----------



## CubaMark

*HUMOUR INDEX*

_DeAdder cartoon: _ 6/10
_Right-wingers falling all over themselves in protest:_ 10/10

:lmao:


----------



## mrjimmy

CubaMark said:


> *HUMOUR INDEX*
> 
> _DeAdder cartoon: _ 6/10
> _Right-wingers falling all over themselves in protest:_ 10/10
> 
> :lmao:


Extra bonus points for the use of the word 'rabble' to describe everyone other than them!


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> *HUMOUR INDEX*
> 
> _DeAdder cartoon: _ 6/10
> _Right-wingers falling all over themselves in protest:_ 10/10
> 
> :lmao:


it was quite the spectacle, a complete critique of said cartoonist rendering abilities

Here I thought Stephen Harper's nose was waaaaay out of proportion!


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa aims to drum up Canadians’ interest in the War of 1812 - The Globe and Mail

tens of millions of dollars? The same tens of millions of dollars conservatives everywhere applauded cutting from party subsidies?

What a bunch of hypocrites. This government just looooves to spend money.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Extra bonus points for the use of the word 'rabble' to describe everyone other than them!


The rabble includes people like you mrjimmy, but not everyone who is not me.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The rabble includes people like you mrjimmy, but not everyone who is not me.


Then if by 'rabble', you simply mean _not you or your ilk_, then I'll accept that as a compliment. Because anything else would be a gross assumption and you wouldn't fall prey to that old chesnut, would you?

So thank you for not including me in your group MF.

I find it amusing to watch everyday ardent conservatives behave as though they are part of some elite club in which they somehow benefit. When, in actuality, they are merely just the stepping stones the real club members use to climb into their gold plated entitlements.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free".
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Rabble indeed.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Then if by 'rabble', you simply mean _not you or your ilk_, then I'll accept that as a compliment. Because anything else would be a gross assumption and you wouldn't fall prey to that old chesnut, would you?
> 
> So thank you for not including me in your group MF.
> 
> I find it amusing to watch everyday ardent conservatives behave as though they are part of some elite club in which they somehow benefit. When, in actuality, they are merely just the stepping stones the real club members use to climb into their gold plated entitlements.
> 
> "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free".
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
> 
> Rabble indeed.


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Count me in your group, mrj. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Then if by 'rabble', you simply mean _not you or your ilk_, then I'll accept that as a compliment. Because anything else would be a gross assumption and you wouldn't fall prey to that old chesnut, would you?
> 
> So thank you for not including me in your group MF.
> 
> I find it amusing to watch everyday ardent conservatives behave as though they are part of some elite club in which they somehow benefit. When, in actuality, they are merely just the stepping stones the real club members use to climb into their gold plated entitlements.
> 
> *"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free".*
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
> 
> Rabble indeed.


nice. :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## groovetube

I see Harper is still showing how much he loves to listen to farmers:
Impolitical: Listening!

Perhaps there's some payoffs to buddies involved.


----------



## groovetube

Landmark Insite decision threatens peace between judges and legislators - The Globe and Mail

Can you imagine, considering the wellbeing, and reducing harm to citizens, whether they are involved in certain activities or are simply "bystanders" that are often affected, instead of failed ideology?

This government simply, doesn't get, nor wants to.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Then if by 'rabble', you simply mean _not you or your ilk_, then I'll accept that as a compliment. Because anything else would be a gross assumption and you wouldn't fall prey to that old chesnut, would you?


You could try to change it into a compliment I suppose. I would more characterize it as people who rely on a group for their sense of identity.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *HUMOUR INDEX*
> 
> _DeAdder cartoon: _ 6/10
> _Right-wingers falling all over themselves in protest:_ 10/10
> 
> :lmao:


DeAdder: cartoon 2/10 Complete fail
Left wingers defence of it and falling over themselves to slag others who disagree with them: 10/10


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> DeAdder: cartoon 2/10 Complete fail
> Left wingers defence of it and falling over themselves to slag others who disagree with them: 10/10


Yep. I can hear them braying with hollow laughter in defense of it.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Then if by 'rabble', you simply mean _not you or your ilk_, then I'll accept that as a compliment. Because anything else would be a gross assumption and you wouldn't fall prey to that old chesnut, would you?
> 
> So thank you for not including me in your group MF.
> 
> *I find it amusing to watch everyday ardent conservatives behave as though they are part of some elite club in which they somehow benefit. *When, in actuality, they are merely just the stepping stones the real club members use to climb into their gold plated entitlements.
> 
> *"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free".*
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
> 
> Rabble indeed.


Really that is exactly how I see ardent leftists. 

As for the Goethe quote I don't think anyone here right, left or centrist is so self deluded as to think they are free in the "poetic" terms in which Goethe meant it. Not to mention that relative to Goethe's day we all in the West enjoy many more right's and freedoms than they did in his day.


----------



## groovetube

I think the real difference is many "ardent leftists" will abandon a party they supported for misconduct, whereas most "ardent conservatives" I know, will support the conservative/republican party regardless of their actions.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Really that is exactly how I see ardent leftists.
> 
> As for the Goethe quote I don't think anyone here right, left or centrist is so self deluded as to think they are free in "poetic" terms that Goethe meant it. Not to mention that relative to Goethe's day we all in the West enjoy many more right's and freedoms than they did in his day.



Don't tread on his worldview, screature. For some people, a sense of victimization is a lifelong companion.


----------



## groovetube

a "sense of victimization".

It really doesn't get any lower than that does it macfury. When you haven't got a leg to stand on, why not start shrieking socialism! Victimization! Anything, anything will do eh?

Then while we're at it, why not point out your extreme sense of being victimized by Obama.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Really that is exactly how I see ardent leftists.


Really? I'm gobsmacked!


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> You could try to change it into a compliment I suppose. I would more characterize it as people who rely on a group for their sense of identity.


Trust me, it's a compliment.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> a "sense of victimization".
> 
> It really doesn't get any lower than that does it macfury. When you haven't got a leg to stand on, why not start shrieking socialism! Victimization! Anything, anything will do eh?
> 
> Then while we're at it, why not point out your extreme sense of being victimized by Obama.


Let the mad anonymous typer be GT. He has important lessons to teach us.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> :clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Count me in your group, mrj. Paix, mon ami.


I always would Dr.G.!


----------



## Macfury

I always enjoy seeing people who feel victimized rallying together. Makes them easier to knock over like 10-pins.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> I always would Dr.G.!


Merci, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## CubaMark

*Dunderdale leads N.L. Tories to majority*



> *Seat count
> *
> Progressive Conservatives: *37*
> 
> Liberals: *6*
> 
> NDP: *5*





> The Liberals, who struggled through the campaign with low funds and third-place results in opinion polls, retained Official Opposition status _even though the NDP received more votes_. While the PCs took 56.1 per cent of the popular vote, the New Democrats had 24.6 per cent and the Liberals had 19.1 per cent.
> 
> The Liberals gained two seats for a six-seat caucus, while the NDP won five seats, up considerably from the single seat that NDP Leader Lorraine Michael had held.





> Dunderdale becomes only the second woman in Canadian history to win a provincial election, following the milestone set by P.E.I.'s Catherine Callbeck in 1993.
> 
> Although her platform mirrors many of the policies that Williams championed, Dunderdale has indicated she will pursue a new agenda with new priorities.
> 
> She ran on a platform that emphasized fiscal prudence and modest Red Tory increases on social spending.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness!


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Dunderdale leads N.L. Tories to majority*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


Yes, the NDP made some great gains in their number of seats and especially in the percentage of votes they have achieved province-wide. An NDP member is now our MHA here in St.John's East.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, the NDP made some great gains in their number of seats and especially in the percentage of votes they have achieved province-wide. An NDP member is now our MHA here in St.John's East.


It's typical of provinces who get a taste of economic greatness to hanker after false gods, Dr. G. It's nature's way of weeding out success!


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, the NDP made some great gains in their number of seats and especially in the percentage of votes they have achieved province-wide. An NDP member is now our MHA here in St.John's East.


it seems to be a trend happening across the country. A tweet I saw today list: In Canada, NL, Ont., Man, Yukon, NB dippers all making large gains.

While the puppets shriek "victimization!" at the top of their terrorized lungs, it's good to see some sanity in politics making some real headway.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It's typical of provinces who get a taste of economic greatness to hanker after false gods, Dr. G. It's nature's way of weeding out success!


That really makes no sense, Macfury.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> That really makes no sense, Macfury.


I agree. It makes no sense, yet time after time it happens.


----------



## CubaMark

*Mean, But Far From Lean*



> *The Tory crime bill being imposed on Canadians is anything but fiscally conservative.*





> ...the Conservatives have proposed an end to conditional sentencing (commonly known as house arrest) for a wide range of crimes. Theft of over $5,000 worth of goods and breaking and entering are two of the more prominent of these offences. Conditional sentences have, to date, significantly reduced rates of incarceration and saved tax dollars, without any corresponding reductions in social safety.





> Even more costly and bizarre, given the fact that a majority of Canadians support the decriminalization of cannabis, is the Conservatives’ plan to punish anyone who grows six marijuana plants or more by imprisoning him or her for a minimum term of six months, irrespective of whether that person has employed any violence in his or her operations. (An RCMP study of marijuana cultivators reveals that less than 10 per cent of those apprehended are engaged in any kind of violent activity.)





> ...this debate has very little, if anything, to do with evidence. The Harper Conservatives believe in punishing crime, even if the costs of their efforts reduce Canadians’ accessibility to health care and education. Their policies on crime are simply a window into their emotional and ideological worldview.


*Neil Boyd*
_Associate Director, Criminology, 
Simon Fraser University_.​
(The Mark News)


----------



## Macfury

> The Harper Conservatives believe in punishing crime, even if the costs of their efforts reduce Canadians’ accessibility to health care and education.


This is like saying that governments investing in phoney green energy are doing so at the cost of health care and eduction.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> This is like saying that governments investing in phoney green energy are doing so at the cost of health care and eduction.


Except for the fact that the vast majority of Canadians want green energy, as opposed to the tiny minority that want to see more pot smokers incarcerated.


----------



## jimbotelecom

bryanc said:


> Except for the fact that the vast majority of Canadians want green energy, as opposed to the tiny minority that want to see more pot smokers incarcerated.


Thumbs up!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## i-rui

also green energy is something that *eventually* we'll need, as we have to find alternative energy sources.

So it's much more of an investment instead of pouring money down the drain like these crime bills are doing.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Except for the fact that the vast majority of Canadians want green energy, as opposed to the tiny minority that want to see more pot smokers incarcerated.


A large portion of Canadians see both Green Energy and incarcerating pot smokers as a waste of money. Pick your money-wasting poison. Spain and Germany have both been down that money-wasting windmill road.


----------



## groovetube

I see that's why McGuinty was re-elected.

I call BS on that one.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Mean, But Far From Lean*





> Even more costly and bizarre, given the fact that a majority of Canadians support the decriminalization of cannabis, is the Conservatives’ plan to* punish anyone who grows six marijuana plants or more by imprisoning him or her for a minimum term of six months*, irrespective of whether that person has employed any violence in his or her operations. (An RCMP study of marijuana cultivators reveals that less than 10 per cent of those apprehended are engaged in any kind of violent activity.)


Not accurate. It has to be proven to the judge that the possession of the plants was for the purposes of trafficking. If the judge decides it was not for trafficking the minimum sentence does not apply. The judiciary still has discriminatory powers in deciding if trafficking was taking place.

Makes me wonder if Mr. Boyd has even read the Bill closely or is he just going off of off here say.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Not accurate. It has to be proven to the judge that the possession of the plants was for the purposes of trafficking. If the judge decides it was not for trafficking the minimum sentence does not apply. The judiciary still has discriminatory powers in deciding if trafficking was taking place.


Great news!


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Great news!


Actually it is relative to the misinformation being disseminated.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> Except for the fact that the vast majority of Canadians want green energy, as opposed to the tiny minority that want to see more pot smokers incarcerated.


I really am not sure how the Chicken Little Crowd defines Green Energy.

Seems that wind turbines are OK though they kill more birds and bats than do the Alberta Oilsands.

Solar is OK despite the poisoning of workers, and poisoning the groundwater around the plants in China.

CFBs are OK though no plan is in place to fully recover Mercury, Phosphorous and other dangerous materials they contain. Also need to give the poisoned workers and groundwater in China an encore mention.

Nuclear is now good, even though all the original problems with disposal of spent fuel rods still exist. 

To me it is overwhelmingly clear that all aspects need to be reviewed before blessing anything with a "Green" label. Like it or not CO2 is still non-toxic, unlike many of the things we are doing to reduce it. Subsidizing green energy that fails to meet non-CO2 green criteria is doing Canadians no favours at all.


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> Seems that wind turbines are OK though they kill more birds and bats than do the Alberta Oilsands.
> 
> Solar is OK despite the poisoning of workers, and poisoning the groundwater around the plants in China.
> 
> CFBs are OK though no plan is in place to fully recover Mercury, Phosphorous and other dangerous materials they contain. Also need to give the poisoned workers and groundwater in China an encore mention.
> 
> Nuclear is now good, even though all the original problems with disposal of spent fuel rods still exist.


All of these are valid points, and worthy of serious study and discussion (even if some turn out not to be true). They are also significant inhibitions to investment by the private sector, which is why government subsidies and research investments are worth considering for these technologies. Given the thermodynamically incontrovertible fact that fossil fuels cannot be used indefinitely, converting our economy to function on renewable 'green' energy is a necessity. We can pay now or pay more later.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Great news!


perhaps, except the Harper government has reversed the trend towards relaxed possession charges, resulting a a very sharp rise in criminal charges and criminal records, with his being the most serious offence the majority of those charged.

Harper suggests the relaxing of possession laws will lead to drugs being more available to kids. When really, this is totally false, and all this does is waste an incredible amount of taxpayers money, and drive up profits for dealers.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> All of these are valid points, and worthy of serious study and discussion (even if some turn out not to be true). They are also significant inhibitions to investment by the private sector, which is why government subsidies and research investments are worth considering for these technologies. Given the thermodynamically incontrovertible fact that fossil fuels cannot be used indefinitely, converting our economy to function on renewable 'green' energy is a necessity. We can pay now or pay more later.


This is based on all sorts of unfounded assumptions. There's no guarantee that investing in these technologies now will be a money save--particularly if they fail to be economically viable. The fact that they are economically unsustainable is no reason subsidize these technologies. Likewise we have little proof that we cannot run the world's economies on fossil fuels for centuries.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Not accurate. It has to be proven to the judge that the possession of the plants was for the purposes of trafficking. If the judge decides it was not for trafficking the minimum sentence does not apply. The judiciary still has discriminatory powers in deciding if trafficking was taking place.
> 
> Makes me wonder if Mr. Boyd has even read the Bill closely or is he just going off of off here say.


Except that to prove "trafficking" in canadian law all that has to be shown is :



> ... to sell, administer, give, transfer, transport, send or deliver the (controlled) substance, (or) to sell an authorization to obtain the substance ...


so someone growing plants, and *gives* some weed to his friend...is guilty of trafficking.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Except that to prove "trafficking" in canadian law all that has to be shown is :
> 
> so someone growing plants, *and gives some weed to his friend.*..is guilty of trafficking.


And that is a likely reason/scenario for a judge to impose a trafficking sentence...? I mean seriously.

Judges are smart people who continually interpret laws and do not adhere to them verbatim... 

Even if you don't "trust" the legislators at least give some credit to the judiciary to rule against the legislators... Insite ruling par example...

I for one am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal who disagrees with the prohibition on marijuana aspect of C-10. However, albeit too strident in my view, it allows for judicial interpretation and therefore the minimum sentence is still up to a judge to decide if it is to be applied.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> . ...Pick your money-wasting poison...


I shall pick Conservatives wasting millions on re-enventing the myth of the Canada's "War of 1812."

28 Million being spent on 1812 Anniversary


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> And that is a likely reason/scenario for a judge to impose a trafficking sentence...? I mean seriously.
> 
> Judges are smart people who continually interpret laws and do not adhere to them verbatim...
> 
> Even if you don't "trust" the legislators at least give some credit to the judiciary to rule against the legislators... Insite ruling par example...
> 
> I for one am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal who disagrees with the prohibition on marijuana aspect of C-10. However, albeit too strident in my view, it allows for judicial interpretation and therefore the minimum sentence is still up to a judge to decide if it is to be applied.


So you support "Activist Judges" and thwarting of the will of the majority of duly elected representatives to Parliament?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I shall pick Conservatives wasting millions on re-enventing the myth of the Canada's "War of 1812."
> 
> 28 Million being spent on 1812 Anniversary


Days after howling that we're wasting money on party subsidies.

This, is a governmet that just loves... To spend, spend, spend.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Days after howling that we're wasting money on party subsidies.
> 
> This, is a governmet that just loves... To spend, spend, spend.


Nonsense, it would be at least double that on the Liberal's watch. That's why they're gone. We're saving money.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Nonsense, it would be at least double that on the Liberal's watch. That's why they're gone.


Except this government, has proven itself big spenders. Bigger spenders than the liberals.

Sorry, I don't buy woulda coulda, I prefer to base my opinions based on record thanks.

Oh. And even Clement "50 million for gazebos" disagrees with you.

Http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...form-in-speech-to-us-audience/article2198649/


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> So you support "Activist Judges" and thwarting of the will of the majority of duly elected representatives to Parliament?


Despite your very obvious and lame attempt to be inflammatory and a provocateur...

I support the separate and distinct roles of the the legislative and judicial bodies.


----------



## groovetube

Oh come now. That's a little overboard for something that was a little tongue in cheek.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Except this government, has proven itself big spenders. Bigger spenders than the liberals.
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy woulda coulda, I prefer to base my opinions based on record thanks.
> 
> Oh. And even Clement "50 million for gazebos" disagrees with you.
> 
> Http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...form-in-speech-to-us-audience/article2198649/


Read my post again. I was referring to the 1812 thing alone.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Days after howling that we're wasting money on party subsidies.
> 
> This, is a governmet that just loves... To spend, spend, spend.


GT you're a closer to the "action" so which Ontario Federal Conservative riding(s) needs some pork barrelling money?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Read my post again. I was referring to the 1812 thing alone.


right. Well I don't know. Personally, I think both would easily spend plenty. It's a draw on that one.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> GT you're a closer to the "action" so which Ontario Federal Conservative riding(s) needs some pork barrelling money?


all of them. starting with clements. Well that already happened...


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> all of them. starting with clements. Well that already happened...


There must have been a fair amount of jealousy amongst the Ontario Conservative Caucus over all the goodies Clement's riding received and none for them. So I would imagine to appease and quiet the rancour of the Ontario caucus Harper had to spread around the pork from the barrel.

It must sting that it's only 28 million dollars for all Ontario but I suppose it's really only Southern Ontario, Eastern Ontario and likely only Conservative held ridings. Perhaps I missed the impact of the British Colonial War of 1812 on Northern Ontario.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> There must have been a fair amount of jealousy amongst the Ontario Conservative Caucus over all the goodies Clement's riding received and none for them. So I would imagine to appease and quiet the rancour of the Ontario caucus Harper had to spread around the pork from the barrel.
> 
> It must sting that it's only 28 million dollars for all Ontario but I suppose it's really only Southern Ontario, Eastern Ontario and likely only Conservative held ridings. Perhaps I missed the impact of the British Colonial War of 1812 on Northern Ontario.


I don't know about jealousy, I imagine the response is the same across the board for conservatives, which is to totally clam up altogether and not let on his is even pork barrelling, or just fend it off with some vague quip that someone else would have spent more.

So much for being better than the liberals I guess. I think there was a spoof thing called...

"Lowered Expectations". Could be a fun video edit sometime


----------



## CubaMark

*Ex-PMO aide Carson left Calgary school with debt*



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's former senior adviser, Bruce Carson, charged thousands of dollars in personal expenses to the federally funded think-tank he headed for just over two years.
> 
> Robert Turner, a prominent Edmonton lawyer and chairman of the Canada School of Energy and Environment's board of directors, says that in one month alone Carson charged almost $28,000 in personal expenses to the school's corporate credit card, which is supposed to be used only for business.





> Carson is already under investigation for possible influence-peddling and illegal lobbying last year in a failed attempt to land federal contracts for a shady company employing his then girlfriend, a former escort.
> 
> Once among Harper's most trusted advisers, Carson has a long history of personal money problems, including fraud convictions and personal bankruptcy.





> The school has hired former Canadian oil industry executive Robert Skinner as its new interim director with an urgent mandate to figure out what Carson was up to during his time there.


(CBC)


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *Ex-PMO aide Carson left Calgary school with debt*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


So? What he does AFTER leaving the PMO is no reflection on Harper.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC, this is further elaboration on Carson's activities - the relevance is in the 2nd snippet quoted, in that he is under investigation for influence peddling and illegal lobbying.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> So? What he does AFTER leaving the PMO is no reflection on Harper.


Save and except when the individual shows continued bad judgement one has to wonder what did the individual do on Harper's watch? With Harper we shall never receive full disclosure. 

Perhaps the only more secretive organization than the Harper Government is Apple Inc.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Ex-PMO aide Carson left Calgary school with debt*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)





SINC said:


> So? What he does AFTER leaving the PMO is no reflection on Harper.


Given that King Harpo at one time touted transparency, and given that Carson may have learned these tricks while working in the PMO; Surely an independent forensic audit of Mr. Carson's activities during his Ottawa tenure is in order.

If his Ottawa past is as clean as Sinc would have us believe, an independent audit would indeed reach that conclusion. King Harpo could then claim that he has not entirely abandoned transparency since achieving a majority.

Even if the audit did reveal Mr. Carson began his ethically challenged lifestyle while still in Ottawa, the PM could still claim he was unaware of it and demand that Mr. Carson compensate the taxpayers and the cost of the audit.


----------



## Macfury

Grabbing at straws much, fellows?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Grabbing at straws much, fellows?


Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. The behaviour at the school was picked up where?

I imagine some believe that Carson's reprehensible behaviour was only before his stint with PM Harper and only restarted after his stent with Our Glorious Leader. 

Like Classified states 1TM FoIS. Keep on keeping on.


----------



## groovetube

for the conservatives, it's grabbing at straws. If it were the liberals, my god the demands for full public inquiries would fill this thread.

Sucks to be in power eh guys?

I haven't seen one conservative supporter say one peep about Clement's stealing of 50 million bucks for pork barrelling. Not one word.

Other than 'the liberals woulda...'


----------



## screature

*Flaherty ditches partisan sniping with paean to public service*

Flaherty ditches partisan sniping with paean to public service
The Globe and Mail

Regarlessof ones politics one can only hope that we see and hear more of this kind of thing:



> Just over a year ago I watched Finance Minister Jim Flaherty deliver a speech at the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa that raised eyebrows because the level of partisan bluster he displayed was unexpected, even for these times – but more especially from this man...





> Last week, Mr. Flaherty gave quite a different speech – one I gather he wrote himself and that may be a better reflection of what he really thinks about politics, public service and his political adversaries.
> 
> He was addressing students at the University of Western Ontario’s Ivey School of Business and the focus of his remarks was an invocation to take up public service. No, he was not recruiting troops to fight for conservative ideology, as Mr. Flaherty’s critics might suspect.
> 
> Instead, in his remarks he drew inspiration from a variety of sources, some of which might startle entrenched Conservative partisans. He quoted Robert Kennedy (a Democrat), Teddy Roosevelt (a Progressive and Republican) and Woodrow Wilson (a Progressive and Democrat). He called Liberal Wilfred Laurier one of Canada’s greatest prime ministers. He spoke admiringly of Red Tory centrist Bill Davis, calling him one of the great Ontario premiers of the 20th Century...





> Here’s an excerpt:
> 
> “We are, of course, not in the world alone and our lives here are finite. People seek to have an impact on broader public issues recognizing the intrinsic value of reaching out to others not only to maintain and reinforce shared common values, but also to create new initiatives and innovations. This societal public good is not incompatible with the private good. Our individual and family responsibilities are primary. Yet the desire to accumulate private goods in the end does not lead to satisfaction simply because, as we all learn, enough is never enough. On that train, some people will always be in the cars ahead.”...





> Here’s some more:
> 
> “We are all in this together seeking the public good and that, with the exception of some scoundrels to be found in all walks of life, including politics, we share that goal. … It matters little to me if you are, or end up, a Conservative, Liberal, NDP or Green party supporter. (Although I hope you find conservative principles engaging.) What matters most is when you walk out of this institution on graduation day you get engaged in your community, province and country.”...


----------



## MacDoc

Wonder if it's catching 

First a red tory heading Alberta - now Flatherty - must be from sitting in Martin's seat 

The whole idea of the public weal has gotten lost in the market nonsense - as that excellent Globe article outlined ( terrific read - I posted it in the occupy thread but it's exactly relevant to your comments about public service.

Economics has met the enemy, and it is economics - The Globe and Mail

and as Soros and others have been on about.

Comeuppance is long overdue

Banks and insurance companies are chartered by the people as represented by their government and in exchange for ridiculous benefits such as fractional lending and little oversight have NOT served the public weal - instead have served the interests of the banks and insurance companies OVER the public.

Sweden in the 90s did server the public weal by taking over underwater banks, tossing management and shareholders and rebuilding them in a responsible way.

THIS is what govs chore is, to prevent predation. Canada did a decent job under Martin in controling the banking sector but worldwide the financial system remains the great predator and a sanctioned one.

99% of the money exchange daily is speculative with all the damage that entails - 1% is wealth building.

To serve the public weal - that needs turning on it's head and it's not going to be without pain.

Occupy is the thin edge....


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Wonder if it's catching
> 
> First a red tory heading Alberta - now Flatherty - must be from sitting in Martin's seat


That's right take a non-partisan speech and make a partisan comment...


----------



## MacDoc

So you are admitting the rather partisan nature of the past actions....the first step is admitting past error to correct the future actions.....
.....well when we SEE action instead of words then I'll consider the cat has changed it's nature.
For now the agenda is obvious despite some attempt at statemanship.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> So you are admitting the rather partisan nature of the past actions....the first step is admitting past error to correct the future actions.....
> .....well when we SEE action instead of words then I'll consider the cat has changed it's nature.
> For now the agenda is obvious despite some attempt at statemanship.


What government doesn't act in a partisan manner, of course there have been past partisan statements and actions...

Every journey begins with a single foot step so rather than make light of those early beginnings and simply continue old ways is it not better to comment in kind rather than merely continue to rabble rouse when your opponent tones down the rhetoric, or are you saying that Flaherty is capable of diplomacy that you are not?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> The whole idea of the public weal has gotten lost in the market nonsense - as that excellent Globe article outlined ( terrific read - I posted it in the occupy thread but it's exactly relevant to your comments about public service.


It may be a tetriffic read, but as I stated earlier, it is nonsense.




MacDoc said:


> and as Soros and others have been on about.


Why cite him? He's one of the people that makes gobs of cash out of manipulating markets and making cash on currency exchanges. Do your homework!



MacDoc said:


> Banks and insurance companies are chartered by the people as represented by their government and in exchange for ridiculous benefits such as fractional lending and little oversight have NOT served the public weal - instead have served the interests of the banks and insurance companies OVER the public.


That's because they're businesses, not public servants. Just as, oh, computer retailers are allowed to sell their products for a profit.



MacDoc said:


> THIS is what govs chore is, to prevent predation. Canada did a decent job under Martin in controling the banking sector but worldwide the financial system remains the great predator and a sanctioned one.


No it isn't. Any agreement freely entered into is the responsibility of the parties involved.



MacDoc said:


> 99% of the money exchange daily is speculative with all the damage that entails - 1% is wealth building.


Prove it. 



MacDoc said:


> To serve the public weal - that needs turning on it's head and it's not going to be without pain.
> 
> Occupy is the thin edge....



The thin edge of nothing. Who is paying attention but the media? It's a little circus.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Flaherty ditches partisan sniping with paean to public service
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Regarlessof ones politics one can only hope that we see and hear more of this kind of thing:


Tis true ol'jimmie boy has been tasked by the headmaster to show his deep philosophic side to the people of Kanukistan. As a citizen of Ontario during "the Harris years", I do remember ol'jimmie playing the same role in the axe man's regime (sarcasm). 

I love the stuff about understanding the Wall Street Protesters having a right to be upset. Yuk Yuk Yuk :lmao:.

Ol'jimmie Flaherty has some of the best fishin' tales this side of Bonavista. A knee slapper for sure. Thanks for these gems Screech!


----------



## groovetube

ha ha.

Some just swallow dem goodies like like they were waitin fer it.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> ha ha.
> 
> Some just swallow dem goodies like like they were waitin fer it.


Aye nutin' like a good bit of cod liver oil to grease up the passage!


----------



## groovetube

after a few pints we can fight the good "more partisan than thou!" one for a good while too.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Achh and there's nothin' like a good Oshawa pub filled with patrons whose jobs I saved in the GM bailout. 

I love the workin' man.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Achh and there's nothin' like a good Oshawa pub filled with patrons whose jobs I saved in the GM bailout.
> 
> I love the workin' man.


And it just cost $850,000 per job. What a deal!

Edit: I was wrong. The number is $1.2 million per job.

A combined $14.4 billion from the feds and the provincial government divided by 12,000 employees = $1,200,000.


----------



## jimbotelecom

It's a whole lot of codswallop! 

Be seeing you.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Tis true ol'jimmie boy has been tasked by the headmaster to show his deep philosophic side to the people of Kanukistan. As a citizen of Ontario during "the Harris years", I do remember ol'jimmie playing the same role in the axe man's regime (sarcasm).
> 
> I love the stuff about understanding the Wall Street Protesters having a right to be upset. Yuk Yuk Yuk :lmao:.
> 
> Ol'jimmie Flaherty has some of the best fishin' tales this side of Bonavista. A knee slapper for sure. Thanks for these gems Screech!





jimbotelecom said:


> Aye nutin' like a good bit of cod liver oil to grease up the passage!





jimbotelecom said:


> Achh and there's nothin' like a good Oshawa pub filled with patrons whose jobs I saved in the GM bailout.
> 
> I love the workin' man.





jimbotelecom said:


> It's a whole lot of codswallop!
> 
> Be seeing you.


I provided nothing other than a link to an article... that you find it so contemptible is not a reflection on me or my thinking... so despite your obvious disdain I shall let it pass.... It must be hard living with so much built up bile.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> It's a whole lot of codswallop!
> 
> Be seeing you.


Oh not you too, usin big words and all.


----------



## MacDoc

Harper's unreality spin

His estimate for single engine jets we don't need and he didn't tender....$75 million per plane

Pentagon estimate $375 million per plans....

Small c gov eh??? not......

broke and broker under Harpo.......shades of Ronny Raygun




> The Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter is shown after it was unveiled in a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, in this July 7, 2006, file photo. - The Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter is shown after it was unveiled in a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, in this July 7, 2006, file photo. | AP
> 
> Tories shrug off multiple warnings on fighter-jet price tag
> steven chase AND campbell clark
> ASBESTOS, QUE., and MONTREAL— Globe and Mail Update
> Published Tuesday, Apr. 26, 2011 12:43PM EDT
> Last updated Friday, May. 27, 2011 7:34AM EDT
> 
> 
> Stephen Harper tried to reassure Canadians Tuesday that taxpayers won’t get soaked by a rising price tag for 65 stealth fighter-bombers the Conservatives are buying from the Americans.
> 
> The Department of National Defence said this week it’s been warned to expect the per-unit price of the F-35 jets might be higher than the $75-million it’s been advertising to Canadians.
> More related to this story
> 
> * F-35 service costs may be more than double Ottawa’s estimate
> * What the F-35 brings to the fight
> * Does Canada need next-generation stealth fighter jets?
> 
> 
> *DND admits fighter jets costs will rise*
> 
> This follows two developments that could spell trouble for the Conservatives: a recent Pentagon report detailing rising production costs for the jets as well as leaked U.S. defence paper that suggests 30 years of maintenance costs could be three times higher than Ottawa has acknowledged.
> 
> The Conservatives say they’ve built extra room for cost overruns into the $9-billion purchase price they released to Canadians last summer.
> 
> Mr. Harper, campaigning in Quebec’s Eastern Townships Tuesday, said it’s incorrect to match up U.S. reports with Canadian estimates. His party has long insisted Canada is immune from rising research and development costs.
> 
> “Many of these reports you are citing are comparing apples to oranges,” Mr. Harper said. “Our experts have put out their detailed figures and everything we’ve seen is within those figures and their contingencies, the contingencies that have been allowed.”
> 
> Michael Ignatieff’s Liberals have vowed they would cancel the deal if they won power and instead allow open bidding to supply Canada’s next warplane. The Conservatives chose the F-35 jet without allowing an open competition among suppliers.
> 
> NDP Leader Jack Layton, meanwhile, says new fighter planes are not a key defence priority right now – although he later acknowledged replacement fighters will “have to be part of the mix.”
> 
> Mr. Layton has attacked the Conservatives plan to buy F-35s, arguing the costs remain unknown and appear likely to be far higher than the government’s official estimates. But he was vague on what he thinks Canada needs, while suggesting that fighter jets are not crucial to what he sees as Canada’s defence priorities.
> 
> *A document from a Pentagon cost-analysis unit leaked to Bloomberg News, forecasts lifetime maintenance costs for the F-35s at roughly $375-million per jet.*


more 
Tories shrug off multiple warnings on fighter-jet price tag - The Globe and Mail

At this rate Harpo is going to outspend Trudeau - given the deficit and the size of his gov....likely already has...

fighter Jets and prisons .....how Canadian.....NOT!


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Harper's unreality spin
> 
> His estimate for single engine jets we don't need and he didn't tender....$75 million per plane
> 
> Pentagon estimate $375 million per plans....


MacDoc, you wanted the country to build a trillion dollar hydrogen grid!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Codswallop I say.

Texas conservatives reject Harper's crime plan - Politics - CBC News

And in more sound economic policy news stay tuned for the ship building boondoggle, all brought to you by Canada's New Gubberment.


----------



## Macfury

The change in Texas policy also requires having a death penalty.

Texas has no state income tax. Let's do that too!


----------



## groovetube

shiny ball!

No tax!


----------



## Lawrence

Has it been mentioned yet?
What are the implications of abolishing the Canadian Wheat Board?

Kind of strange that Harper wants to abolish it.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Has it been mentioned yet?
> What are the implications of abolishing the Canadian Wheat Board?
> 
> Kind of strange that Harper wants to abolish it.


It has been mentioned yet.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> And it just cost $850,000 per job. What a deal!
> 
> Edit: I was wrong. The number is $1.2 million per job.
> 
> A combined $14.4 billion from the feds and the provincial government divided by 12,000 employees = $1,200,000.


sure, and your government you defend daily is creating 15,000 jobs with *35 BILLION*.

One can sit and play stupid math all day long I suppose.


----------



## bryanc

*analysis of Cain's 9-9-9 plan*

I can't find the post now, but I remember MacFury in particular endorsing Cain's proposed implementation of a flat tax. I'm not personally opposed to the idea of a flat tax, as long as it's combined with a suitable minimum guaranteed income. But the 9-9-9 plan has now been analyzed with respect to what it would mean in terms of the actual tax burden on families with various ranges of incomes. Not surprisingly, coming from a Republican, it means an increase in taxes on the lower and middle classes (to the tune of about $5k per year... which I know would be a major problem for me), and a *huge* decrease in taxes on the rich (to the tune of $millions).

What's really amazing is how much of an decrease in tax on the ultra rich this represents. Check out this graph:


----------



## Macfury

Why is this in the Canadian Political Thread?


----------



## bryanc

American politics and policy affect Canadian politics and society much more than the converse. Harper, and the Conservatives seem hell-bent on making Canada more like the US, and are clearly philosophically allied with the Republicans and the political Right in the US. Finally, you and others here have expressed your support for the policies being discussed by the GOP, and I thought it therefore appropriate to point out just how bad it would be for Canada to follow in this misguided direction.


----------



## Macfury

That's weak. Have it moved somewhere appropriate.


----------



## i-rui

It's probably more appropriate be in the Wall Street thread or maybe in the Tea Party thread.

....but still, what an eye opening graph. The absolute nerve of some Republicans to even suggest such a plan given the climate of the Wallstreet Protest shows just how clueless that party has become.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> It's probably more appropriate be in the Wall Street thread or maybe in the Tea Party thread.
> 
> ....but still, what an eye opening graph. The absolute nerve of some Republicans to even suggest such a plan given the climate of the Wallstreet Protest shows just how clueless that party has become.


No--they are discounting the Wall Street protests altogether as irrelevant. All of them will vote Democrat anyway.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> It's probably more appropriate be in the Wall Street thread or maybe in the Tea Party thread.
> 
> ....but still, what an eye opening graph. The absolute nerve of some Republicans to even suggest such a plan given the climate of the Wallstreet Protest shows just how clueless that party has become.


We all saw the libertarian openly support something that raises taxes on almost everyone except the very rich.

If anyone needs further proof the "libertarianism" is a put on, look no further.

I think it's called vote for anything with conservative legs.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canadian Wheat Board takes Tory"dictatorship" to court*



> The directors of the Canadian Wheat Board are suing the federal government over its decision to dismantle the board.
> 
> “The Harper government is acting illegally and immorally,” Allen Oberg, chairman of the farmer-controlled board said Wednesday morning in announcing the lawsuit.
> 
> He accused the government of acting like a “dictatorship” and he said eliminating the board will harm farmers and turn over control of the wheat and barley trade to U.S. companies.
> 
> “The Harper government is handing it to them on a silver platter,”


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## CubaMark

*And on the topic of the Conservatives crime 'control' bill:*

*Canada's homicide rate declines to 44-year low*



> The number of homicides in Canada last year fell to the lowest level in 44 years, according to Statistics Canada,


_(that pesky StatsCan - no wonder the Conservatives have been bludgeoning it these past few years)_



> The decrease follows a downward trend in Canada's overall crime rate in the past decade.


(CBC)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Canadian Wheat Board takes Tory"dictatorship" to court*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)



Bill C-18 does not eliminate the Wheat Board it makes it optional as opposed to being mandatory. It is pretty rich the wheat board calling the government a dictatorship when they have a monopoly... pretty hilarious actually.

Their suit will fail as the law drafted by the Liberals was a bad law and in fact will be shown to have gone against the conventions of the Supremacy of Parliament as the legislative body of the land and that no law by any previous Parliament can disallow a future Parliament to change or repeal a law and in fact relinquishes that power to a non-elected 3rd party i.e. the wheat board. It will be found to be unconstitutional I can guarantee it. This is nothing more than a stalling tactic to try and maintain their fat pay cheques and monopoly a little while longer.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> This is nothing more than a stalling tactic to try and maintain their fat pay cheques and monopoly a little while longer.


I don't blame them for trying. Such concentrated power is pretty hard to come by. Only so many jobs for unemployed fat cats.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Bill C-18 does not eliminate the Wheat Board it makes it optional as opposed to being mandatory. It is pretty rich the wheat board calling the government a dictatorship when they have a monopoly... pretty hilarious actually.
> 
> Their suit will fail as the law drafted by the Liberals was a bad law and in fact will be shown to have gone against the conventions of Parliament and will be found to be unconstitutional I can guarantee it. This is nothing more than a stalling tactic to try and maintain their fat pay cheques and monopoly a little while longer.


Well he didn't call them fascist or nazi yet eh.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Well he didn't call them fascist or nazi yet eh.


What?


----------



## i-rui

The Friends of the CWB ( Friends of the Canadian Wheat Board - Home ) has also launched a suit against the Harper government. I think these will go to the supreme court.

Again, i'm not sure if the CWB is a positive or negative force, but i do believe the farmers themselves should vote on it.

The truth is no one knows what the ramifications of dismantling the monopoly would be. If the farmers do in fact make more money from the sale of wheat we could see food prices rise across the board for every canadian. If farmers don't make as much money we could see the end of small farms and the amalgamation of super corporate farms.

the important thing to remember is once the CWB has the monopoly right stripped it can never be reinstated.... so all actions should be cautious.


----------



## CubaMark

_*Man, this CWB issue has legs....*_

*Sask. MP David Anderson apologizes for 'talking Eskimo' video*



> ...depicts a fictional CWB official explaining to a Saskatchewan farmer the role the CWB plays as the sole marketer of western wheat and barley for human consumption.
> 
> When the Saskatchewan wheat farmer tells the CWB official he wants to sell his grain to a baker in Calgary, the official replies: "Slow down, young man. You are talking Eskimo. You cannot do those things in Saskatchewan."
> 
> The farmer then questions how the CWB can exist, arguing that it seems "kind of communist."
> 
> "Watch your smart mouth, boy, or I will put your name on a list for an immediate audit by the board," the CWB official says.
> 
> The video uses the phrase "talking Eskimo" three times. In a statement issued earlier this week, national Inuit leader Mary Simon called the phrase a racist slur.


(Vancouver Sun)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> _*Man, this CWB issue has legs....*_
> 
> *Sask. MP David Anderson apologizes for 'talking Eskimo' video*
> 
> (Vancouver Sun)


Due to you expatriate location you may be excused for posting this, but this is literally yesterdays news...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> _*Man, this CWB issue has legs....*_


Due to your expatriate location you may be excused for posting this, but this is literally yesterday's news...


----------



## CubaMark

Yeah, the internet's a lot slower down here in Mexico....  But dude, you only gotta tell me once!


----------



## SINC

There is a lot of anger towards the wheat board in the west. Much of it stems from them laying charges against farmers who tried to sell their wheat at a higher price in Montana and wound up in handcuffs due to wheat board complaints to the RCMP. It is much wider spread than many of you think. When you talk to farmers who want the right to sell outside the wheat board, there is much anger. Ending the board's monopoly is what they want, not abolishing the entire board. That would leave them freedom of choice, their main issue in this battle. As I understand from speaking with the farmers I know, that is what the government is trying to do - provide that choice.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Bill C-18 does not eliminate the Wheat Board it makes it optional as opposed to being mandatory. It is pretty rich the wheat board calling the government a dictatorship when they have a monopoly... pretty hilarious actually.
> 
> Their suit will fail as the law drafted by the Liberals was a bad law and in fact will be shown to have gone against the conventions of the Supremacy of Parliament as the legislative body of the land and that no law by any previous Parliament can disallow a future Parliament to change or repeal a law and in fact relinquishes that power to a non-elected 3rd party i.e. the wheat board. It will be found to be unconstitutional I can guarantee it. This is nothing more than a stalling tactic to try and maintain their fat pay cheques and monopoly a little while longer.


The Conservatives *ignored* an important provision of the law to dismantle "break" the CWB single desk (monopoly) system. The Conservatives *could have conducted a vote* for farmers to decide. Should the majority of farmers have voted to eliminate the single desk (monopoly) for the sale of barley and wheat then the process in the law was followed and all would be legal.* But No! Harper and his ideologues don't want any part of democracy.*

Harper and Co. believe votes cast by less than 40% of voters is an overwhelming mandates at least they proclaim so Ad nauseam.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The Conservatives *ignored* an important provision of the law to dismantle "break" the CWB single desk (monopoly) system. The Conservatives *could have conducted a vote* for farmers to decide. Should the majority of farmers have voted to eliminate the single desk (monopoly) for the sale of barley and wheat then the process in the law was followed and all would be legal.* But No! Harper and his ideologues don't want any part of democracy.*
> 
> Harper and Co. believe votes cast by less than 40% of voters is an overwhelming mandates at least they proclaim so Ad nauseam.


The Cons ignored it because it was not binding... as the coming law suit(s) will show... the Libs in their arrogance wanted to enshrine their "law" and bind other subsequent governments which in and of itself was arrogant and antidemocratic.

Isn't it funny how leftist want to support a monopoly... all too funny... actually not funny, it is to be expected.

BTW if you your get 40% of the vote when there are 5 parties running it doesn't matter about the popular vote as the Chretien government proved and benefited from... but oh when the Cons benefit from it woe be tide and cry foul... how hypocritical. 

Until we have a different electoral system cry all you want. The Cons won a majority of seats and have the right to a majority government... Boo hoo for you and your ilk...


----------



## groovetube

It's all very simple. Let the farmer's vote on the issue, 51% says break it, so, break it.

Clap your hands.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Yeah, the internet's a lot slower down here in Mexico....  But dude, you only gotta tell me once!


Sorry.. internet posting error... my bad.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> The Cons ignored it because it was not binding... as the coming law suit(s) will show... the Libs in their arrogance wanted to enshrine their "law" and bind other subsequent governments which in and of itself was arrogant and antidemocratic.
> 
> Isn't it funny how leftist want to support a monopoly... all too funny... actually not funny, it is to be expected.
> 
> BTW if you your get 40% of the vote when there are 5 parties running it doesn't matter about the popular vote as the Chretien government proved and benefited from... but oh when the Cons benefit from it woe be tide and cry foul... how hypocritical.
> 
> Until we have a different electoral system cry all you want. The Cons won a majority of seats and have the right to a majority government... Boo hoo for you and your ilk...


The Government Ideologues obviously don't want to deal with facts. Kill long form census, don't hold a vote, just run on BS and blame the Liberals. Nice defence. 

Someone starting to also sound like a rugged individualist.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The Government Ideologues obviously don't want to deal with facts. Kill long form census, don't hold a vote, just run on BS and blame the Liberals. Nice defence.
> 
> Someone starting to also sound like a rugged individualist.


No government in Canadian history has run its legislative agenda based on public plebiscites... you and others seem to think the current government should be based on a premise that no other government in history has had to operate on... good luck with that...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> No government in Canadian history has run its legislative agenda based on public plebiscites... you and others seem to think the current government should be based on a premise that no other government in history has had to operate on... good luck with that...


Just like we need to switch to some alternative voting method every time the Conservatives have a majority.


----------



## groovetube

Actually if you read anything you'd know it was suggested for all parties.

It was suggested after Mcguinty nearly squeaked in a near majority.

Anyway, it's good see admissions that the cons are no better than libs before them.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Just like we need to switch to some alternative voting method every time the Conservatives have a majority.


I've considered the Canadian electoral system broken since I first learned about it in grade school. Sometimes it results in governments that are less bad than others, but it inevitably fails to represent the preferences of Canadians.

One of the things that *is* clear, is that if the electoral system reflected the desires of Canadians, the Conservatives would not be running the country.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I've considered the Canadian electoral system broken since I first learned about it in grade school. Sometimes it results in governments that are less bad than others, but it inevitably fails to represent the preferences of Canadians.
> 
> One of the things that *is* clear, is that if the electoral system reflected the desires of Canadians, the Conservatives would not be running the country.


That was also clear when the Liberals were running it. However, there was much golden silence at the time, except among those who supported the Liberals or NDP.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> there was much golden silence at the time


You should get your hearing checked. People have been railing against the FPTP system in Canada for decades. It has nothing to do with who's in power.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> You should get your hearing checked. People have been railing against the FPTP system in Canada for decades. It has nothing to do with who's in power.


The trouble is that those who support PR are in a tiny minority. Most Canadians are fine with FPTP and will continue to be for years, or so it appears.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> You should get your hearing checked. People have been railing against the FPTP system in Canada for decades. It has nothing to do with who's in power.


*Some* people have been railing against it for example the likes of yourself... when Ontario held a referendum to consider to moving to proportional representation FPTP was maintained so your statement is far from being a general truth. The fact is *most* people don't really care. 

*You* should get your hearing checked as it seems to be sensitive only to certain frequencies.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> You should get your hearing checked. People have been railing against the FPTP system in Canada for decades. It has nothing to do with who's in power.


Yes. They mostly rail when their party of choice is out of power and could benefit from the alternative system they propose. A few rail all the time.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> The trouble is that those who support PR are in a tiny minority. Most Canadians are fine with FPTP and will continue to be for years, or so it appears.


Does "Most Canadians" include those that stay away from the polls in droves?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Does "Most Canadians" include those that stay away from the polls in droves?


Who cares about them?


----------



## SINC

Quick, someone define most for the man.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Quick, someone define most for the man.


I really fail to see why people are concerned with laggards who choose not to vote. Of course, this concern for the laggards become particularly imperative when the complainer's party has recently lost an election.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Quick, someone define most for the man.





Macfury said:


> Who cares about them?


In another country a Grand Old Party not only cares about those who are turned off voting. This Party and a Canadian Party want-a-be GOP encourage and count on creating conditions that will cause citizens voluntarily withdraw their right to vote. 

It helps these Parties and their supporters have their way without the messy need for the Majority of the citizen to approve of their plans. 

So a couple of posters here don't really care about our democracy.

I believe in Democracy. So I care. 

So who else here *really cares* about democracy.


----------



## Macfury

Democracy does not require everyone to vote, nor does *really caring *about democracy require a belief that everyone must vote. It requires that people be offered the opportunity to vote.


----------



## groovetube

Tories use majority to halt public probe of Veterans Affairs cuts - The Globe and Mail

or perhaps the opportunity to know what is happening.


----------



## MacDoc

Funny democracy in Australia REQUIRES everyone to vote.....it's not your opinion that counts MF - it's what people as a nation decide.....too bad our system is broken.

With an Australian voting structure Harpo would be in the wilderness of a fringe party where he belongs.

No agenda eh.......bull****..Harper has subverted the already set of checks and balances.....watch Quebec look to exit within a decade once they get fed up with him.

the first glimmer

Quebec vows to fight Harper on long-gun registry data | iPolitics


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Funny democracy in Australia REQUIRES everyone to vote.....it's not your opinion that counts MF - it's what people as a nation decide.....too bad our system is broken.


What are you blithering about? I didn't say that a country couldn't enslave its people to vote. But you're only saying the system is broken because it doesn't empower the people you vote for. Typical.




MacDoc said:


> Harper has subverted the already set of checks and balances.....watch Quebec look to exit within a decade once they get fed up with him.
> 
> the first glimmer
> 
> Quebec vows to fight Harper on long-gun registry data | iPolitics


The scrapping of the Long Gun Registry is the first glimmer of separation? If you'll pardon the expression, that's a long shot--and backed up by nothing. You're just angry because Harper won a majority without Quebec. That's the "checks and balances" he managed to circumvent.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> What are you blithering about? I didn't say that a country couldn't enslave its people to vote. But you're only saying the system is broken because it doesn't empower the people you vote for. Typical.


or the people the 60% of the country voted for.

We need an end to absolute power by any of them. I don't want any of the parties with that sort of power, including any one that I vote for.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> or the people the 60% of the country voted for.
> 
> We need an end to absolute power by any of them. I don't want any of the parties with that sort of party, including any one that i vote for.


+1


----------



## Lawrence

I think there are some that are getting a bit upset with the Cons.


----------



## groovetube

I heard the cons want to somehow restrict anyone including kids from wearing any costumes that appear like any of the conservative party.

Now, I have heard just about everything. 

Gentlemen, I give you, the new, Nanny State.


----------



## Macfury

I always love it when someone who supports an also-ran like the federal NDP declares they would never want to see that party gain a majority--as if such a thing were even possible. There's magnanimity for you!


----------



## groovetube

I guess the concept went right over your head then.

I think people even said that about Bob Rae's NDP, in fact they were shocked they won too.

And there's also another party besides the NDP too. In case you forgot.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I always love it when someone who supports an also-ran like the federal NDP declares they would never want to see that party gain a majority--as if such a thing were even possible. There's magnanimity for you!


Even a blind squirrel can find a nut by times.

Majority NDP Government in Nova Scotia even. Who'da thunk it?


----------



## jimbotelecom

So long F-35's. 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/touch/story.html?id=5619308


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Even a blind squirrel can find a nut by times.
> 
> Majority NDP Government in Nova Scotia even. Who'da thunk it?


I would have thunk it would happen in NS.


----------



## groovetube

hard to believe an ndp government would balance the budget too.


----------



## bryanc

Or Saskatchewan.


----------



## CubaMark

*Either this Conservative Senator has 'way too much time on her hands, or - in my most cynical moment - this is how the Conservatives "throw a bone" to the Inuit after the"talking Eskimo" controversy of earlier this week:*

*Should the beaver be replaced as Canada's national symbol?*












> A Conservative senator wants to replace the beaver - which she calls a "dentally defective rat" and a "toothy tyrant" - as Canada's national symbol with the more "majestic" polar bear.





> Sen. Nicole Eaton says the polar bear is Canada's "most majestic and splendid mammal," and a powerful symbol in the lives of aboriginal peoples in the North.


(CBC)


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I would have thunk it would happen in NS.


Why?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Why?


Economic lassitude.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Economic lassitude.


 So you're saying that only the NDP can invigorate a weary economy and restore a balanced budget?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Either this Conservative Senator has 'way too much time on her hands, or - in my most cynical moment - this is how the Conservatives "throw a bone" to the Inuit after the"talking Eskimo" controversy of earlier this week:*
> 
> *Should the beaver be replaced as Canada's national symbol?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


I personally don't see the embarrassment... she also did suggest ADDING the polar bear as a national symbol and not completely replacing the beaver.

Originally lacrosse was our national sport and then hockey was added to keep up with the reality of the times.

The beaver as a national symbol makes sense historically, but as a modern symbol much less so... I wouldn't be comfortable abandoning the beaver altogether as a symbol but I would be in favour of adding the polar bear in addition to the beaver.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> So you're saying that only the NDP can invigorate a weary economy and restore a balanced budget?


No. In most cases, those who have simply given up elect an NDP government, so they can equally share in the shrinking pie.


----------



## groovetube

MF would have us believe that all those who vote NDP are all in a conspiracy to get a piece of "the pie".

That's rich.


----------



## Sonal

Mmmm.... pie.....


----------



## groovetube

try pie try...


pie - Weebl's Stuff


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Mmmm.... pie.....


Get some fast, Sonal--it's shrinking!


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> Mmmm.... pie.....


Yep, Pumpkin Pi


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Get some fast, Sonal--it's shrinking!


It's okay. I'm making my own damn pie. The rest of you can share.


----------



## CubaMark

*....and back to the topic of this thread....
*
*Peggy Nash launches NDP leadership bid*





> Toronto MP Peggy Nash announced she will run for the NDP leadership this morning, winning the loudest cheers when she repeatedly referred to the next prime minister as “she.”





> I’ve worked hard to make a difference to the lives of working people,” said Nash, referring to her history in the Canadian labour movement and longtime role as senior negotiator with the Canadian Autoworkers Union.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> “I know my way around a contract and I know my way around a budget,” she said, switching effortlessly between English and French.
> 
> Nash focused on the economic competence of her party, as well as its social accomplishments, pointing out: “We are the party that understands the value of a dollar.”
> 
> That dollar “can’t be stretched for millions of dollars for more prisons when we should be investing in child care,” she said.
> 
> 
> 
> (Toronto Star)
> *
> Looks like a strong candidate...anyone have more info on Nash?*
Click to expand...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Looks like a strong candidate...anyone have more info on Nash?


She could be, on paper, but in politics that doesn't mean much... kind of like stocks... they are only worth the paper they are printed on until the time that you decide to cash them out... Just sayin'...

She is however an interesting candidate and having seen her performance in the House she does quite well relatively speaking... but that is ultimately irrelevant, as what it ultimately comes down to is, does she have the votes among party members. On that front, right now, she is relatively unknown in the party... she has a more or less distant past, but not much of a recent past. That doesn't mean she can't swing hearts and minds, but just to say I think her candidacy faces an up hill battle. At least right now.

At any rate things are now starting to get interesting beyond Topp and Mulcair.

Not personally, beyond what I have already stated, to answer your question, but I will be looking at her more closely now since she announced her candidacy, as will many, many other people... very, very closely, I can assure you.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> She could be, on paper, but in politics that doesn't mean much... kind of like stocks... they are only worth the paper they are printed on until the time that you decide to cash them out... Just sayin'...
> 
> She is however an interesting candidate and having seen her performance in the House she does quite well relatively speaking... but that is ultimately irrelevant, as what it ultimately comes down to is, does she have the votes among party members. On that front, right now, she is relatively unknown in the party... she has a more or less distant past, but not much of a recent past. That doesn't mean she can't swing hearts and minds, but just to say I think her candidacy faces an up hill battle. At least right now.


As the past president of the ND Party it hard to understand why Peggy would be unknown within the Party . A long time activist within the Party especially in Ontario.

2009 press release Nash Elected New Democrat President


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> As the past president of the ND Party it hard to understand why Peggy would be unknown within the Party . A long time activist within the Party especially in Ontario.
> 
> 2009 press release Nash Elected New Democrat President


My bad, I hadn't read that about her, I knew she was a short lived MP and about her union connections. I stand corrected. Having read what you just linked to she could be a very strong candidate then. The NDP has a history of women leaders so maybe it is time again.


----------



## Macfury

> I’ve worked hard to make a difference to the lives of working people,” said Nash, referring to her history in the Canadian labour movement and longtime role as senior negotiator with the Canadian Autoworkers Union.


Well, there's a great opening salvo. What a success story that's been! Next...

Seriously, the NDP has gone to the automakers' well far too many times. Why are they constantly acting as though the CAW is going to be their salvation? It's a dying constituency.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Well, there's a great opening salvo. What a success story that's been! Next...


But within the party MF those things are significant... I don't think it resonates with Canadians at large, but in terms of votes on a NDP convention floor it does mean something.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> But within the party MF those things are significant... I don't think it resonates with Canadians at large, but in terms of votes on a NDP convention floor it does mean something.


It may be meaningful internally--but if it is, it's surprising to me. Sort of like a Conservative saying he supported the Buggy Whip Manufacturers' Association.


----------



## kps

The one and only time I have ever voted for the NDP was for Peggy Nash in 2006 when I voted strategically to oust a Liberal as the Conservatives stood less than a zero's chance of getting elected in that riding. I would have voted for her again in 2008, but unfortunately by that time I moved from the riding and she lost to Gerard Kennedy only to come back in the last election and oust him.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It may be meaningful internally--but if it is, it's surprising to me. Sort of like a Conservative saying he supported the Buggy Whip Manufacturers' Association.


Well as you know the NDP has huge union ties. It don't it matters that much which union so long as you are seen to be pro labour.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> The one and only time I have ever voted for the NDP was for Peggy Nash in 2006 when I voted strategically to oust a Liberal as the Conservatives stood less than a zero's chance of getting elected in that riding. I would have voted for her again in 2008, but unfortunately by that time I moved from the riding and she lost to *Gerard Kennedy *only to come back in the last election and oust him.


Couldn't stand the guy, looks like his constituents didn't like him much either...


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Well, there's a great opening salvo. What a success story that's been! Next...
> 
> Seriously, the NDP has gone to the automakers' well far too many times. *Why are they constantly acting as though the CAW is going to be their salvation? It's a dying constituency*.


Yeah, really, all the hard core old timers have been bought off, paid off, given their packages and retired. 

...and as funny as it seems, Oshawa is pretty blue these days.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> The one and only time I have ever voted for the NDP was for Peggy Nash in 2006 when I voted strategically to oust a Liberal as the Conservatives stood less than a zero's chance of getting elected in that riding. I would have voted for her again in 2008, but unfortunately by that time I moved from the riding and she lost to Gerard Kennedy only to come back in the last election and oust him.


dear god. You voted ndp strategically? That should send atom smasher into a tailspin.


----------



## kps

Looking back at that election he just might agree with me.

...besides, Peggy is the only one that came to my door and chatted with me. None of the other flunkies did.:lmao:


----------



## Sonal

If the NDP wants to be relevant in the population at large, they need to continue to distance themselves from their union background. Layton did start that and it worked. 

Playing to the center tends to do well in Canadian politics.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> If the NDP wants to be relevant in the population at large, they need to continue to distance themselves from their union background. Layton did start that and it worked.
> 
> Playing to the center tends to do well in Canadian politics.


Agreed.


----------



## MacDoc

While I personally tend to agree - in reality - Australia which is heavily unionized is now ranked the wealthiest nation and certainly the infrastructure and services are first class....well beyond ours.

Australia wealthiest nation in world: report

Norway and Sweden are both highly unionized and rank very high in the best place to live standings and better equality of income.
So perhaps a rethink is in order instead of catering to Harpo's Americanization of Canada crap.

Irresponsible unions are only slightly less destructive and predatory than irresponsible corporations and governments.
We've got more than our share here at the moment of them all ....especially in Ottawa.

Responsible unions have a strong role to play in an equitable society.


----------



## groovetube

Oh jeez. The mere mention of Norway or sweden will send some into hysterics


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> While I personally tend to agree - in reality - Australia which is heavily unionized is now ranked the wealthiest nation and certainly the infrastructure and services are first class....well beyond ours.
> 
> Australia wealthiest nation in world: report
> 
> Norway and Sweden are both highly unionized and rank very high in the best place to live standings and better equality of income.
> So perhaps a rethink is in order instead of catering to Harpo's Americanization of Canada crap.
> 
> Irresponsible unions are only slightly less destructive and predatory than irresponsible corporations and governments.
> We've got more than our share here at the moment of them all ....especially in Ottawa.
> 
> Responsible unions have a strong role to play in an equitable society.


Australia's strong presence in commodities is behind that. Labour unions do little damage when the economy is booming. Witness the heyday of car manufacturing in North America--only when union excesses eclipsed the market was the damage noticed. 
*
However, the question here is not whether unions are good for the economy, but why the NDP is playing up to them as a constituency.*


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Well, there's a great opening salvo. What a success story that's been! Next...
> 
> Seriously, the NDP has gone to the automakers' well far too many times. Why are they constantly acting as though the CAW is going to be their salvation? It's a dying constituency.





Macfury said:


> It may be meaningful internally--but if it is, it's surprising to me. Sort of like a Conservative saying he supported the Buggy Whip Manufacturers' Association.


Just whom do you believe make up the membership of CAW?



CAW said:


> *CAW members work in aerospace, mining, fishing, auto and specialty vehicle assembly, auto parts, hotels, airlines, rail, education, hospitality, retail, road transportation, health care, manufacturing, shipbuilding and other sectors of the economy.*


About the CAW

Are you aware of any facts before you write drivel? I am not the first poster here to question you, of your insistence, on passing off stereotype as some sort of knowledge.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Just whom do you believe make up the membership of CAW?
> 
> 
> 
> About the CAW
> 
> Are you aware of any facts before you write drivel? I am not the first poster here to question you, of your insistence, on passing off stereotype as some sort of knowledge.


Well aware of it. My father was a CAW member.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Well aware of it. My father was a CAW member.


Aware that the CAW is Canada's largest private sector Union with over 200,000 members?

Then why the comparison to "Sort of like a Conservative saying he supported the Buggy Whip Manufacturers' Association." Is there a major demand for Buggy Whips (that I nor anyone else is aware of) and is the manufacture of these items a growth industry in Canada?

Presently is there truly an Association of Manufacturers outside of the Canadian Manufacturers Associations (now the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters) solely dedicated to the promotion of Buggy Whips? 

Is this the reason for the reference to "Buggy Whip Manufacturers Association?"


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Aware that the CAW is Canada's largest private sector Union with over 200,000 members?
> 
> Then why the comparison to "Sort of like a Conservative saying he supported the Buggy Whip Manufacturers' Association." Is there a major demand for Buggy Whips (that I nor anyone else is aware of) and is the manufacture of these items a growth industry in Canada?
> 
> Presently is there truly an Association of Manufacturers outside of the Canadian Manufacturers Associations (now the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters) solely dedicated to the promotion of Buggy Whips?
> 
> Is this the reason for the reference to "Buggy Whip Manufacturers Association?"


Yes I am aware. However catering to union members strike me as the wrong approach for the NDP--a look to to the past rather than the future. Just as claiming you once supported buggy whip manufacturers would be backward looking.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> While I personally tend to agree - *in reality* - Australia


In reality none of the countries you refer to have the political history of ours and therefore while vastly interesting on their own, they are not transplantable to our situation as you seem to so often to want to imply...

It seems sometimes MacDoc you are ready to emigrate so perhaps your energies would be better spent there as you seem to constantly wish that we more closely emulated other countries. 

If you choose to stay then maybe you should take up a political way of life, but be forewarned there are significant sacrifices to be made.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Yes I am aware. However catering to union members strike me as the wrong approach for the NDP--a look to to the past rather than the future. Just as claiming you once supported buggy whip manufacturers would be backward looking.


The lack of any understanding of New Democrats is coming through load and clear.

IMHO, it's wise if one doesn't have any knowledge of a topic, not to be so blatant about the level of ignorance.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The lack of any understanding of New Democrats is coming through load and clear.
> 
> IMHO, it's wise if one doesn't have any knowledge of a topic, not to be so blatant about the level of ignorance.


I guess that Peggy Nash just doesn't understand New Democrats.


----------



## groovetube

Feel free to go educate her.

That would highly, entertaining. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Feel free to go educate her.
> 
> That would highly, entertaining. :lmao:


+1 (where's that dang like button)


----------



## Macfury

Thomas Mulcair, on the other hand:



> In an interview with The Globe, Mr. Mulcair recounted how he informed the Canadian national director of the Steelworkers, Ken Neumann, that he opposed a reserved voting block for unions at the NDP leadership convention in March. “It was quite clear he wasn’t used to being told ‘no’ by anyone in the NDP. And I said ‘no.’ I said, ‘Why not let the membership decide?’” Mr. Mulcair said of the “cordial” conversation that occurred last month…
> 
> “So that is a defining difference because I want to work with the unions, but I’m never going to be beholden to anybody other than the people who voted me there, which will be the membership of the party,” Mr. Mulcair said.


He’ll say no - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


----------



## groovetube

The extreme always sees things, in extremes. The concept of something same perhaps in the center wouldn't occur to them. "you're either with us, or against us" comes to mind. There's breaking the union's backs, and then there is being beholden to unions.

The very idea of being smart about things and working -with- unions may be a true, stumbling block for quite a few I expect.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The extreme always sees things, in extremes. The concept of something same perhaps in the center wouldn't occur to them. "you're either with us, or against us" comes to mind. There's breaking the union's backs, and then there is being beholden to unions.
> 
> The very idea of being smart about things and working -with- unions may be a true, stumbling block for quite a few I expect.


That might be true if unions shared that middle ground utopia you seem to believe actually exists. Instead they make demands and threats to get their own way, often against their very own members. Been there done that, and sorry, but it's a fairy tale of your own invention.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Thomas Mulcair, on the other hand:
> 
> He’ll say no - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


Thomas Mulcair is an a-hole... there I said it... He has his office in my building and is one of the least friendly, cold people I have ever had the displeasure of encountering.

That being said he is very knowledgeable and a formidable opponent in a debate.

He is definitely the most right leaning, i.e. centrist, of the candidates thus far... he was a Minister in the Charest government and even courted becoming a member of the CPC so on that front I can see why you might be interested.

But on a personality basis he is only a few degrees warmer than absolute zero.

So if I were a NDP supporter I would run screaming from his candidacy as he is about as far from "bon Jack" as one could be...

If I were a CPC supporter I would be all behind his candidacy on a couple of fronts... he is right leaning vs. the other candidates and if he were leader, based on personality alone, Harper will have a majority indefinitely.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> That might be true if unions shared that middle ground utopia you seem to believe actually exists. Instead they make demands and threats to get their own way, often against their very own members. Been there done that, and sorry, but it's a fairy tale of your own invention.


As I said, being smart about dealing with unions may be a bit of a stumbling block to some.

I don't subscribe to the either or nonsense we're force fed from government.


----------



## MacDoc

hmmmmm middle ground utopia.........seems it DOES exist.....despite your claims to contrary.

Many of the nations ranked highest on the human development list have strong unions - including Japan.
That they work cooperatively with management instead of combatively is a decision union leadership, corporate leadership and government leadership collectively foster.

For instance QUANTAS union is being seriously stupid in failing to recognise the reality of a very tough environment for airline companies ....their pilots are the highest paid in the world and the rank and file are after job for life nonsense.

So gov correctly steps in and orders them back to work and negotiate in good faith instead of gun to head.

The world doesn't end at the borders of Alberta nor is much of like Alberta in mindset.....thank goodness for that.

Other places understand the "soci" in society and the concept of common weal.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> That might be true if unions shared that middle ground utopia you seem to believe actually exists. Instead they make demands and threats to get their own way, often against their very own members. Been there done that, and sorry, but it's a fairy tale of your own invention.





MacDoc said:


> hmmmmm middle ground utopia.........seems it DOES exist.....despite your claims to contrary.
> 
> For instance QUANTAS union is being seriously stupid in failing to recognise the reality of a very tough environment for airline companies ....their pilots are the highest paid in the world and the rank and file are after job for life nonsense.
> 
> So gov correctly steps in and orders them back to work and negotiate in good faith instead of gun to head.
> 
> The world doesn't end at the borders of Alberta nor is much of like Alberta in mindset.....thank goodness for that.
> 
> Other places understand the "soci" in society and the concept of common weal.


So Mr. Intellect, just why part of my post previous to yours did you not grasp? You just outlined what I said about demands and threats with a perfect example of the very same crap that unions are infamous for.

Typical Mensa misunderstanding apparently is alive and well, and outside Alberta borders no less?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> So Mr. Intellect, just why part of my post previous to yours did you not grasp? You just outlined what I said about demands and threat with a perfect example of the very same crap that unions are infamous for.
> 
> Typical Mensa misunderstanding apparently is alive and well, and outside Alberta borders no less?


Well, SINC, he didn't read the other posts.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Well, SINC, he didn't read the other posts.


And that is exactly what makes his statement make him look like a fool.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> That might be true if unions shared that middle ground utopia you seem to believe actually exists. Instead they make demands and threats to get their own way, often against their very own members. Been there done that, and sorry, but it's a fairy tale of your own invention.


Likewise, I have no problem with the weak banding together, provided it doesn't involve governments, for example, preventing the hiring of replacement labour if union members choose to withdraw their services. It isn't the union itself I have a problem with--just the granting of special powers to the organization.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And that is exactly what makes his statement make him look like a fool.


It seems Sinc, you didn't read macdoc's post very closely.

Before calling others a fool, I would reconsider that, and consider what he suggested.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> It seems Sinc, you didn't read macdoc's post very closely.
> 
> Before calling others a fool, I would reconsider that, and consider what he suggested.


Oh I read it carefully all right. Apparently you missed the barb he tossed at Alberta in his typical insulting style.


----------



## groovetube

and here I thought it was us in the "center of the universe" that were so touchy


----------



## MacDoc

Keep electing a government that prides itself in denying AGW, building coal plants when others are closing and allowing irresponsible fossil fuel companies to dictate terms.....damn right I'll call the lot of you in Alberta fools AND irresponsible.
Last time I checked "representative government "

You want some respect.....earn it - elect some people with some sense of reality.
Y'know the old trickle down theory


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> "representative government "


Don't tar everyone with the same brush. There are loads of sensible and intelligent people in Alberta, they're just outnumbered by the idiots. Same goes for the rest of the world, unfortunately. That's one of the problems with democracy; majority rule means that the people elected appeal to the majority.


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> Keep electing a government that prides itself in denying AGW, building coal plants when others are closing and allowing irresponsible fossil fuel companies to dictate terms.....damn right I'll call the lot of you in Alberta fools AND irresponsible.
> Last time I checked "representative government "
> 
> You want some respect.....earn it - elect some people with some sense of reality.
> Y'know the old trickle down theory


Yeah, I know. Just like you Ontarians taking your province from the richest in Canada to a have-not province. Well done.


----------



## groovetube

funny, that happened under a western prime minister while the west booms.

hmmm...


Anyway, in more conservative steamroller news:
‘Buck stopped with me’ over $50-million spent on G8 summit, Baird says - The Globe and Mail

Basically, yeah, I know what I did wasn't good, but y'know in hindsight I shoulda done it different. But who gives a %^& I can get away with it anyway.

What was all that whimpering about entitlements? Yeah.


----------



## BigDL

Makes me think of foxes and hen houses and who's in charge of what.


----------



## bryanc

*The ultimate Libertarian solution: 0% tax!*

As usual, Mark Fiore nails it. (and yes, I know it's not Canadian politics, but it seemed most appropriate here).


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> As usual, Mark Fiore nails it. (and yes, I know it's not Canadian politics, but it seemed most appropriate here).


He doesn't nail it at all. A big difference between Libertarianism and anarchy.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yeah, I know. Just like you Ontarians taking your province from the richest in Canada to a have-not province. Well done.


Indeed. The economic malaise is palpable and the direct result of government policy, with energy policy leading the way to stifling investment and crushing job opportunities. Well done Green Energy!


----------



## groovetube

oh yes Ontario's problem are a direct result from green energy.

oh and the handful of face pierced park squatters joining the protest. 

I suppose when one considers this point of view, it's puts the whole 'pseudo-libertarian' position into perspective quite well.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> He doesn't nail it at all. A big difference between Libertarianism and anarchy.


Especially if the Libertarian doesn't get to tell everyone how to live.


----------



## Max

+1


----------



## MacDoc

The perfected libby world ...perfect freedom










*soci.*.ety??? MIA


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Especially if the Libertarian doesn't get to tell everyone how to live.


That's right. The Libertarian doesn't tell you how to live--he just asks you to live that way without bothering him about it. He might watch from the sidelines while people freely associate with other dependent types, as they all go down the drain at the same time. But he just respectfully declines to join you.



MacDoc said:


> The perfected libby world ...perfect freedom


MacDoc that's the second time you've dragged out that chestnut (do you have a thing for pirates)? I enjoy living in a society of people who freely associate with each other. Next?


----------



## groovetube

"_respectfully_ declines"? Perhaps in someone's mind.


----------



## groovetube

so Flaherty finally admits he'll miss the deficit targets, so, regular folk will have to continue to wait for their turn at the promised tax cuts.

Corporate tax cuts won't be waiting I bet, so the top execs can still count on better bonuses. I wonder when we'll see all those new jobs from those corporate tax cuts.


----------



## BigDL

Tax cuts for the corps tax hikes on pay roll taxes for the working people right on schedule.

Has Flaherty ever balanced a budget? Ever?


----------



## groovetube

nope.

rugged individualist still working through this concept of government and corporations being one and the same.

If it ever occurs to it, I want to be out of the way.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> nope.
> 
> rugged individualist still working through this concept of government and corporations being one and the same.
> 
> If it ever occurs to it, I want to be out of the way.


Not to worry, as a staunch anti-Conservative, you're well out of the way.


----------



## groovetube

And it's just that sort of "steamroller" attitude that will sink harpers boat eventually.

Personally, with the spending and lying going on that conservatives are magically totally down with apparently, I as probably 60+% of Canadians do too, fully intend to stay in the way.


----------



## cap10subtext

Care to place a bet on the deficit Smoke and Mirrors Flaherty will leave in his wake? We're already past $50B. Why not make it $100B? Spend our way out of a recession and while we're at it, let's spend 1/2 a billion putting the G20 in downtown Toronto. We care so much about stimulating the economy, we won't even compensate small business owners for the inevitable property damage that occurs as a result.

Let's see, "tax and spend" the way people criticize the NDP for proposing, or "don't tax and put it on our tab" a la Harper's conservatives. Gosh which ever shall I choose. Well I DO like free money...

Woo! Four more years!


----------



## groovetube

Mulroney did the same thing and left a massive mess.

Harper is simply repeating the same thing.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Mulroney did the same thing and left a massive mess.
> 
> Harper is simply repeating the same thing.


It only took Mulroney 8 years to decimate the Progressive Conservatives. How many years will Harper take to decimate the Conservative Party?


----------



## groovetube

perhaps the same. Simply history repeating itself.

Canada will be even more in debt and in far more trouble by the time they're done. They'll just keep mouthing the words 'reign in spending' while doing the complete opposite until they've had their spending spree and they're done.

Freedom baby!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> It only took Mulroney 8 years to decimate the Progressive Conservatives. How many years will Harper take to decimate the Conservative Party?


So far its taken Harper about 9 years to decimate it. 

I would say the previous decimation was the work of Kim Campbell, who did so in a couple of weeks.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha. With the wave of the atom smasher's hand, suddenly, 8 years of Mulroney's reign is all but erased!

You just can't make that up.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> It only took Mulroney 8 years to decimate the Progressive Conservatives. How many years will Harper take to decimate the Conservative Party?


And the circumstances are oh so identical aren't they?  

Two failures opening the Constitution plus the GST.... I mean really... If you are going to try and present an analysis at least look a little deeper.

The CPC will rule until at least 2015 so that will be 9 years... they well may become the opposition when the election is called at that time but as for the party being decimated I highly doubt it will be a repeat... 

Time will tell. 

If it is, well then there will be reasons and democracy will hopefully have been served...

If the CPC's record at that time shows that they have been bums, then bye, bye.... but we still have 4 more years before that is even a possibility, so suck it up and pace yourself otherwise you may have a stroke.


----------



## groovetube

a horrible economy and the country saggin in debt comes to mind....


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> And the circumstances are oh so identical aren't they?
> 
> Two failures opening the Constitution plus the GST.... I mean really... If you are going to try and present an analysis at least look a little deeper.
> 
> The CPC will rule until at least 2015 so that will be 9 years... they well may become the opposition at that time but the party being decimated I highly doubt it will be a repeat...
> 
> Time will tell.
> 
> If it is, well then there will be reasons and democracy will hopefully have been served.


So far he's decimated it into a majority/


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> So far he's decimated it into a majority/


The same could be said of Mulroney. :lmao:


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The same could be said of Mulroney. :lmao:


Last I checked Mulroney and Harper are not the same person and times have changed significantly...

The situation really isn't as simple as you would seem to want to try and portray it....

I like having these kind of conversations when there is actually some value added, but posts like the last couple you have made are so anachronistic as to have no value at all... sorry that is just he way I see it... of course I could be completely wrong. Time will tell.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa rejects need for safety legislation in wake of cyclist's death - The Globe and Mail

Even though side guards work well inEurope, and have been mandatory for years there, the tories couldn't give a ^&( about a dead cyclist.


----------



## SINC

Blaming the Tories for a Transport Canada decision is 'just a bit of a reach' is it not? TC operates well outside of politics. 

That noted, the huge expense to instigate such a program for every single flatbed, semi-trailer, gravel truck etc, in the country is ludicrous. While it is unfortunate a life was lost, the fact of the matter remains that cyclists are well aware that they take their chances when riding in places where such big trucks are commonplace. It would be one more piece of nothing more than social engineering legislation, that would at best save very few lives.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Blaming the Tories for a Transport Canada decision is 'just a bit of a reach' is it not? TC operates well outside of politics.


This is just part of a sort of functional illiteracy in understanding the structure of government, SINC. Don't wast too many pixels on it.


----------



## groovetube

I didn't know transport canada had nothing to do with the ruling government. 

It seems Europe sees the benefits. Perhaps in rural ALberta there aren't many cyclists, but down here, there are thousands at any given time. 

For that matter, why bother legislating seat belts. I mean, we all know the risks of driving on the roads right?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> This is just part of a sort of functional illiteracy in understanding the structure of government, SINC. Don't wast too many pixels on it.


Not many people, or the press it would seem, understand jurisdictional authority... I have to deal with such ignorance daily.


----------



## BigDL

*Conservative Plead Guilty to Election Malfeasance*

Conservatives plead guilty to charges of election fraud with the so called "In and Out Scheme." *Shame! Shame!*


> ...Under a deal accepted by Judge Celine Dorval in an Ottawa courtroom Thursday afternoon, the party and the Conservative Fund pleaded guilty to lesser Elections Act charges of incurring election expenses exceeding the maximum allowable and filing election records that didn't set out all expenses...
> 
> ...The prosecutor told the judge the new charges were still serious and asked for the maximum penalty of a $50,000 fine to the party — $25,000 per charge — and $2,000 to the Fund, $1,000 per charge.
> 
> The judge agreed, saying the offences were "of a regulatory nature but significant to the democratic process," and accepted a defence request for 30 days to pay...


Read All About IT


----------



## Macfury

Excellent. Honesty pays.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not many people, or the press it would seem, understand jurisdictional authority... I have to deal with such ignorance daily.


I suppose having the choice, I'd rather be ignorant than 'arrogant'...

Yes, I made an error in attributing this to the government, and not transport canada. I am, but a mere mortal, lashing out because someone near my house was brutally killed.

Excuse the hell, out of me.


----------



## groovetube

Majority backs public funding for CBC, poll finds - The Globe and Mail

This oughta cause some heavy snorting from the west...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Conservatives plead guilty to charges of election fraud with the so called "In and Out Scheme." *Shame! Shame!*
> Read All About IT


This is bad for the con machine, no doubt. The financial penalty is however reflective of the seriousness of the infraction... kind of like the rest of us us doing 120km/hr in a 100km/hr zone.. it was wrong yes but obviously not so much so that the judge felt it necessary to throw the book at them...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> This is bad for the con machine, no doubt. The financial penalty is however reflective of the seriousness of the infraction... kind of like the rest of us us doing 120km/hr in a 100km/hr zone.. it was wrong yes but obviously not so much so that the judge felt it necessary to throw the book a them...


Exactly. The plead guilty to the lesser charge. Case closed!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Excellent. Honesty pays.


better to ask forgiveness than permission?

---------

on a separate note, i remember one ehmacian (not you Macfury) who backed the conservatives in the last election making a friendly wager with me that the conservatives WOULD balance the budget by the 2014 date they set. The prize being a $25 iTunes GC.

Well, now that Jim Flaherty has already conceded that WON'T be the case i was hoping to collect early on the bet.

Hopefully whoever that was will step up without me searching through the forum for the specific post.

With 4 years of Harper and co., it'd be nice if ONE good thing happened because of those half-wits running the show.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> on a separate note, i remember one ehmacian (not you Macfury) who backed the conservatives in the last election making a friendly wager with me that the conservatives WOULD balance the budget by the 2014 date they set. The prize being a $25 iTunes GC.


I sure wouldn't have taken that bet, man!


----------



## groovetube

Yes and those slips were just the same sort. It's wonder why you bothered to waste any pixels in that nonsense. :baby:


----------



## jimbotelecom

Nice poll. 

Good to see and I'm not surprised, but they should still boot Dawn Cherie's butt out the door.


----------



## groovetube

and kevin O'leary's...


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> This is bad for the con machine, no doubt. The financial penalty is however reflective of the seriousness of the infraction... kind of like the rest of us us doing 120km/hr in a 100km/hr zone.. it was wrong yes but obviously not so much so that the judge felt it necessary to throw the book a them...


The judge did throw the book the now "CONS" for good and proper reasons.



CBCNews said:


> The prosecutor told the judge the new charges were still serious and *asked for the maximum penalty of a $50,000 fine to the party — $25,000 per charge — and $2,000 to the Fund, $1,000 per charge.*
> 
> *The judge agreed,* saying the offences were "of a regulatory nature *but significant to the democratic process,"* and accepted a defence request for 30 days to pay.


Bolded for the CONS' apologists who seemed to have missed the important sections of this story.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> and kevin O'leary's...


And Rex Murphy


----------



## SINC

And Rick Mercer.


----------



## Lawrence

A little humour, Since Christmas is coming...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## screature

BigDL said:


> The judge did throw the book the now "CONS" for good and proper reasons.
> 
> Bolded for the CONS' apologists who seemed to have missed the important sections of this story.


Like I said a speeding ticket... time to move on.


----------



## BigDL

Let's deny any wrong doing. Break the laws, hypocrisy (or is Harpocrisy) to gerrymander an election.

No wonder the Cons and their supporters are so convinced crime is rampant and need punitive actions. 

It is well known that those in denial project onto others their own flaws.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Let's deny any wrong doing. Break the laws, hypocrisy (or is Harpocrisy) to gerrymander an election.
> 
> No wonder the Cons and their supporters are so convinced crime is rampant and need punitive actions.
> 
> It is well known that those in denial project onto others their own flaws.


nothing to see here OH MY GOD EVERYBODY SHUTUP! I'm not partisan but hey I work on the hill so I'm way smarter than y'all so just quit it now nothing to see here nope the conservatives merely got a speeding ticket I'm gonna cry now so just shut up.

That's my contribution for the day I'm headed far away to bring some rock so have at 'er.


----------



## BigDL

Don't be too hard with "A Supporter on a Hill" (ASOH). The ASOH did at least recognize a violation. The 10 over metaphor says it was wrong but only a little wrong.

The Conservative Party called the guilty plea and maximum fines to a plea bargain *A VICTORY.*

I guess if you can spend millions over the legal limit and steal an election, nobody goes to jail and only get fined $52,000 as a cost...well...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Don't be too hard with "A Supporter on a Hill" (ASOH). The ASOH did at least recognize a violation. The 10 over metaphor says it was wrong but only a little wrong.
> 
> The Conservative Party called the guilty plea and maximum fines to a plea bargain *A VICTORY.*
> 
> I guess if you can spend millions over the legal limit and *steal an election*, nobody goes to jail and only get fined $52,000 as a cost...well...


They didn't steal anything, they paid for it... 

It is highly unlikely that the money spent in advertising won them the election. However, there is no way to prove or disprove that as there is no way to measure whether or not any of the money spent actually translated to any votes.

Personally I would have been happy if Finley had been found guilty as he is an arrogant SOB and this whole situation was his doing. He and his ilk within the conservative ranks should be tossed out on their keesters... but regrettably this isn't going to happen anytime soon as they simply have too much power within the party.

BTW, your ASOH is just so lame, what are you, 12?


----------



## groovetube

And speaking of being 12, while -someone- mouthed of on how ignorant I was about the truck wheel guards being solely a transport canada thing, it seems now there's (yet another) private members bill for this very thing. I guess working on hill doesn't always guarantee total lordship over all opinions eh?

The pomposity is astounding.


----------



## FeXL

No Elections Canada bias at all. Non-partisan & objective. Riiiiight... (or should that be "left"?)



> Turns out that Elections Canada and the NDP made a quiet agreement October 27th where the NDP bizarrely avoid being charged by admitting they broke the rules.
> 
> ...
> 
> All swept quietly under the carpet…


The Canada Gazette? What's the circulation there? 13? 28?

How about some national coverage? Where's MSM?


----------



## jimbotelecom

So long jets!

Washington could scrap its F-35 jet purchase - The Globe and Mail

Now what can we do about the outrageous prison builds?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Ottawa rejects need for safety legislation in wake of cyclist's death - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Even though side guards work well inEurope, and have been mandatory for years there, the tories couldn't give a ^&( about a dead cyclist.


I am still trying to get a clear picture of this incident.

Clearly the truck was turning and the cyclist was in the blind spot/danger zone. Did the cyclist pull up along side the truck at a light? Or did the truck pull up beside the cyclist then forget she was there?

I have seen way too many cyclists try to create an additional lane or allow themselves to be trapped in that big time danger zone. Either way it is a miracle more bicyclists are not killed or mangled in this manner. 

Drivers need to be aware of their blindspots and since they are much more vulnerable cyclists need to be even more aware of drivers blindspots.

Since we are talking $Billions$ to equip all of Canada's trucks and trailers with side aprons, would the money not be better spent separating bicyclists from the main traffic wherever possible? That said legislation passed in response to one or two isolated incidents is almost always bad legislation and always costly for someone.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I am still trying to get a clear picture of this incident.
> 
> Clearly the truck was turning and the cyclist was in the blind spot/danger zone. Did the cyclist pull up along side the truck at a light? Or did the truck pull up beside the cyclist then forget she was there?
> 
> I have seen way too many cyclists try to create an additional lane or allow themselves to be trapped in that big time danger zone. Either way it is a miracle more bicyclists are not killed or mangled in this manner.
> 
> Drivers need to be aware of their blindspots and since they are much more vulnerable cyclists need to be even more aware of drivers blindspots.
> 
> Since we are talking $Billions$ to equip all of Canada's trucks and trailers with side aprons, would the money not be better spent separating bicyclists from the main traffic wherever possible? *That said legislation passed in response to one or two isolated incidents is almost always bad legislation and always costly for someone.*


Agreed.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> So long jets!
> 
> Washington could scrap its F-35 jet purchase - The Globe and Mail
> 
> *Now what can we do about the outrageous prison builds?*


Sigh... There are to be none. They're updating and where needed expanding existing facilities, why do people insist on spreading bogus information.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Sigh... There are to be none. They're updating and where needed expanding existing facilities, why do people insist on spreading bogus information.


Right... builds doesn't mean updating and expanding!:lmao::lmao:


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Right... builds doesn't mean updating and expanding!:lmao::lmao:



No it doesn't, not in the way you and others refer to it laughing boy.


----------



## jimbotelecom

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


Grow up.


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## groovetube

throws a jab and then says grow up.

As it always is isn't it. "NOT MEEEEEEE!"

It's like the little sister that punches you in the face and screeches MOMMY! if you dare say peep.


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> No Elections Canada bias at all. Non-partisan & objective. Riiiiight... (or should that be "left"?)
> 
> 
> 
> The Canada Gazette? What's the circulation there? 13? 28?
> 
> How about some national coverage? Where's MSM?


it isn't the elections canada bias. It seems the conservative gaffe was far bigger in scope or was bigger news. I can think of plenty of instances where there was pul-enty of coverage over liberal gaffes, even when there wasn't one.

Looks like the ndp got a similar deal on the surface of things.


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## jimbotelecom

knickers in a knot.


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## screature

Just get a little tired of grown men posting like children, I get enough of that crap listening to QP every day... it gets tiresome.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Fair enough but your comment was, in my opinion, picayune and uncalled for.

Not to say that I'm not guilty on occasion.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Fair enough but your comment was, in my opinion, picayune and uncalled for.
> 
> Not to say that I'm not guilty on occasion.


What this:



> screature said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh... There are to be none. They're updating and where needed expanding existing facilities, why do people insist on spreading bogus information.
Click to expand...

was picayune... hardly as it was a factual statement correcting the widespread errors that are being posted and yours seemed to follow suit...

If you are talking about your 5 :lmao:s and my comment:



> Grow up.


I stand by my post.

It is insulting and childish.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dude, the intent is to increase the real estate of prisons. Do you deny that there will be more cells for incarcerating people? Bogus information...hardly.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*How does everyone feel about the CRTC decision?*

It looks like we'll pay more based on speed but what does it mean for current pricing levels?
I think we might see a moderate increase in pricing across the board but I'm not sure. Any one willing to take a stab at the econometrics if the ruling?


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> It looks like we'll pay more based on speed but what does it mean for current pricing levels?
> I think we might see a moderate increase in pricing across the board but I'm not sure. Any one willing to take a stab at the econometrics if the ruling?


I started a separate thread on this subject here.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Dude, the intent is to increase the real estate of prisons. *Do you deny that there will be more cells for incarcerating people?* Bogus information...hardly.


I don't know... probably... there is overcrowding currently... did you know that? There needs to be upgrades and expansion regardless...

Your and other posts imply the *building* of *NEW* prisons for which there is *NO* evidence in policy or budgeting. It make come to pass but until it does posts like yours are misinformation.

BTW nice dodge of the 5 :lmao:'s as being childish and your claim of my post as being picayune.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> I started a separate thread on this here.


No link SINC.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> No link SINC.


you're a poet.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> you're a poet.


You're a... you fill in the rest... beejacon


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> I don't know... probably... there is overcrowding currently... did you know that? There needs to be upgrades and expansion regardless...
> 
> Your and other posts imply the *building* of *NEW* prisons for which there is *NO* evidence in policy or budgeting. It make come to pass but until it does posts like yours are misinformation.
> 
> BTW nice dodge of the 5 :lmao:'s as being childish and your claim of my post as being picayune.


yeah right...misinformation.

here's a sixth::lmao:


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> You're a... you fill in the rest... beejacon


Nasty screature if you had "an" I would know what would follow, but with an "a" that leaves many possibilities. Don't be shy, fill in the blanks.:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Careful not too many laughing smilies. :baby:


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> Careful not too many laughing smilies. :baby:


Childish eh!


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> No link SINC.


Sorry, original fixed too:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else...s-bell-usage-based-internet-billing-plan.html


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> yeah right...misinformation.
> 
> here's a sixth::lmao:


One thing I don't think Jimbo is that you are stupid... I would hope you would show me the same the same respect... thus far you haven't... that is my issue that thus far in your posts you seem to be willingly ignoring... if you think I am stupid continue in the vein you have been and by all means and I will simply add you to my Ignore List...

Previously I have not felt the need but with your recent posts I am beginning to feel it may be necessary... I don't need another gt... he's been blocked for a while... if you simply want to fill his *cat*erwauling shoes that is your choice, but if so I am not interested.

Just let me know by the content of your next post...


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## groovetube

ooh an ultimatum. Put up with my passive aggressive sniping then whining when you bite back, or else the BLOCK!


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## BigDL

Peter, I'll take Paul Lynde, for the BLOCK


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Previously I have not felt the need but with your recent posts I am beginning to feel it may be necessary... I don't need another gt... he's been blocked for a while... if you simply want to fill his *cat*erwauling shoes that is your choice, but if so I am not interested.
> 
> Just let me know by the content of your next post...


Interesting that you choose to block people. To me, that would negate my reason for coming to a forum in the first place. Unless of course, the offending party was beyond reason, which GT is not.

To each their own I suppose.


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## groovetube

Perhaps a little of their own medicine is a bit much for them. They pull these stunts only to stamp their feet when it's dished right back, as we just witnessed this last page, and oh, the threat of being blocked. Well my god. I know I tend to mock a bit when it gets ridiculous, probably not the best way, but it isn't like it wasn't deserved at times.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Interesting that you choose to block people. To me, that would negate my reason for coming to a forum in the first place. Unless of course, the offending party was beyond reason, which GT is not.
> 
> To each their own I suppose.


The Ignore List option exists for a reason... to be applied to people who are continually nothing other than obnoxious, unreasonable and insulting... and yes obviously to each their own and we will have to agree to disagee.

Additionally I have obviously had much more interaction here with others than you have had, so please do not presume to judge as your post would seem to indicate a judgmental attitude...

If I or anyone else chooses to add someone to their ignore list that is their business and right and it isn't for anyone else to decide that their reasons are incorrect or wrong... it is a personal decision.

Life is short and putting up with the same continual BS and harassment from some people isn't worth the frustration, better to shut out the noise and be done with it as there is never anything new or unexpected... just like I don't watch certain shows on TV... I know what to expect so why bother... Not too hard to understand really.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Peter, I'll take Paul Lynde, for the BLOCK


Good graphic...


----------



## groovetube

"obnoxious, unreasonable and insulting", hmmm I guess we can add those to also me being called 'ignorant', as well as a number of other beauties. So I guess I'm not quite ignored enough to continue hurling digs at I suppose.

Not that I care, but really, this is quite something. What is this, grade school?


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> The Ignore List option exists for a reason... to be applied to people who are continually nothing other than obnoxious, unreasonable and insulting... and yes obviously to each their own and we will have to agree to disagee.
> 
> Additionally I have obviously had much more interaction here with others than you have had, so please do not presume to judge as your post would seem to indicate a judgmental attitude...
> 
> If I or anyone else chooses to add someone to their ignore list that is their business and right and it isn't for anyone else to decide that their reasons are incorrect or wrong... it is a personal decision.
> 
> Life is short and putting up with the same continual BS and harassment from some people isn't worth the frustration, better to shut out the noise and be done with it as there is never anything new or unexpected... just like I don't watch certain shows on TV... I know what to expect so why bother... Not too hard to understand really.


Is that a chip on your shoulder or are you just glad to see me?


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Additionally I have obviously had much more interaction here with others than you have had, so please do not presume to judge as your post would seem to indicate a judgmental attitude...


Didn't know this was a competition...



> If I or anyone else chooses to add someone to their ignore list that is their business and right and it isn't for anyone else to decide that their reasons are incorrect or wrong... it is a personal decision.


Public forum. Deal with it.



> Life is short and putting up with the same continual BS and harassment from some people isn't worth the frustration, better to shut out the noise and be done with it as there is never anything new or unexpected... just like I don't watch certain shows on TV... I know what to expect so why bother... Not too hard to understand really.


You seem to attract it or haven't you noticed?


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## Macfury

Is it time for Storybook Squares?


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Didn't know this was a competition...


It isn't, never suggested it was.



mrjimmy said:


> Public forum. Deal with it.


Guess what, in case you haven't noticed I am.



mrjimmy said:


> You seem to attract it or haven't you noticed?


Nope the ones I have added to my ignore list are equal opportunity harassers who take it onto themselves to spout BS and insults to anyone who dares to disagree with them.

Now if you are done bone picking (and talk about having a chip on one's shoulder) lets move on.


----------



## Sonal

10 reasons to oppose Bill C-10 - thestar.com


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## jimbotelecom

^^^^

Oh oh that 2nd paragraph could upset someone, just for starters. Lookout!


----------



## groovetube

They are going to ram this expensive trainwreck of a piece of legislation no matter what anyone says.

As I said, they'll scream and howl that the gun registry was expensive and didn't do much, only to turn around and waste more money on this useless stupidity. And the only reaction is, "you're soft on crime"? if you DARE disagree?

No, I'm simply not stupid. Sorry.


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## jimbotelecom

No I don't think anyone's opinion is stupid either.

But remember, they're simply doing a little re-modeling, updating, and where needed expanding existing facilities.

Why does The Star insist on spreading bogus information?


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## groovetube

sort of nothing to see here we're only going to waste billions on proven failed policies dun worry yer soft on crime so shut up sorta deal?


----------



## eMacMan

jimbotelecom said:


> No I don't think anyone's opinion is stupid either.
> 
> But remember, they're simply doing a little re-modeling, updating, and where needed expanding existing facilities.
> 
> Why does The Star insist on spreading bogus information?


If so why no firm limits or even any guesstimates on cost? Also notice no automatic jail time for any of the criminal activities our Politicos tend to gravitate to. Things like say Shawinigate....


----------



## eMacMan

jimbotelecom said:


> No I don't think anyone's opinion is stupid either.
> 
> But remember, they're simply doing a little re-modeling, updating, and where needed expanding existing facilities.
> 
> Why does The Star insist on spreading bogus information?


If so why no firm limits or even any guesstimates on cost? Also notice no automatic jail time for any of the criminal activities our Politicos tend to gravitate to. Things like lying to the taxpayers, Shawinigate....


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## BigDL

I for one am ecstatic that the Harper Government is giving more consideration to criminals than to seniors.

The elder's abuse of blowing the Old Age Security Supplement on tins of cat food is an abomination of tax money. These grey haired layabouts deserve to languish in poverty and squalor.

You have to praise our Glorious Leader for his priorities. Take the young off the streets keep'em in jails and prisons until they old an feeble. Spend the money on less rights for the inmates and longer sentences that'ill learn'em a thing or two. We can always find some third world migrant worker from some hell hole not nearly as miserable as our prisons to do the work.

Never mind that a person who feels they have nothing to lose becomes the most dangerous person on earth, when they're old and feeble how much trouble could a person be?


----------



## Macfury

I love that old saw about the cat food. What senior is such an idiot that they would eat expensive cat food over something less expensive and more nutritious? This is age-ism, belittling the intelligence of seniors.


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## groovetube

I think if it's less than 39 cents a can, it's probably not, more nutritious...


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## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I love that old saw about the cat food. What senior is such an idiot that they would eat expensive cat food over something less expensive and more nutritious? This is age-ism, belittling the intelligence of seniors.


I'm pleased that is your only complaint regarding Our Glorious Leader's treatment favouring criminals with real money over his attitude towards seniors. 

*Oh by the way! You are the only one indicating the seniors are eating cat food.*


----------



## CubaMark

_I was going to start another thread with this, since this one appeared to have devolved into the typical name-calling and posturing that most of our threads seem to eventually become, but let's see if we can get it back on track:_

*Government spies on advocate for native children*



> Why is the federal government spying on Cindy Blackstock?
> 
> When does a life-long advocate for aboriginal children become an enemy of the state?
> 
> The answer, it would seem, is when you file a human rights complaint accusing your government of willfully underfunding child welfare services to First Nations children on reserves.





> ...federal officials attended 75 to 100 meetings at which she spoke, then reported back to their bosses.
> 
> They went on her Facebook page during work hours, then assigned a bureaucrat to sign on as himself after hours to check it again looking for testimony from the tribunal.
> 
> On at least two occasions, they pulled her Status Indian file and its personal information, including data on her family.
> 
> As first reported by the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network, it’s all there in a mountain of documents, measuring more than six inches high, which she recently received after waiting 1 ½ years for them to be released under access to information legislation.





> Blackstock was awarded the Atkinson Charitable Foundation’s Economic Justice fellowship, which provides $100,000 per year to community leaders to support their work.
> 
> Among those who praised her on that occasion was former prime minister Paul Martin.





> “I have never said anything that the auditor general hasn’t said,’’ Blackstock says.
> 
> Indeed, in 2008, then-auditor general Sheila Fraser confirmed that substantial shortfalls in federal child-welfare funding on reserves are jeopardizing children’s safety.
> 
> Fraser also found First Nations children receive substantially less elementary and secondary school funding per capita than other Canadians enjoy.
> 
> “I’m a common sense girl,’’ Blackstock says. “I say rather than spend the money following me around, spend it on the children.’’
> 
> This is a government that seems perpetually in need of enemies.


(Toronto Star)


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## groovetube

the last line seems to say it all doesn't it.


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## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> No I don't think anyone's opinion is stupid either.
> 
> But remember, they're simply doing a little re-modeling, updating, and where needed expanding existing facilities.
> 
> Why does The Star insist on spreading bogus information?


Beause the Star is about as anti-Con as they come... that is why... even worse than the CBC... no balance at all and people complain about the Sun...

The Sun is as bad in its way, but the Star is no better when it comes to presenting an obvious editorial position...

I would have thought an intelligent well read person would have understood this by now.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I would have thought an intelligent well read person would have understood this by now.


boy for someone who whines about obnoxious or insulting comments, he sure does like to toss them around himself eh?

lol.

Anyway, beyond the dramaqueen stuff...

It seems the star is not the only place that has expressed similar opinion on this.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I'm pleased that is your only complaint regarding Our Glorious Leader's treatment *favouring criminals with real money* over his attitude towards seniors.
> 
> *Oh by the way! You are the only one indicating the seniors are eating cat food.*


This makes absolutely no sense... I think you need to re-think and post again... flawed logic to say the least.

And uh no you implied it...



BigDL said:


> *The elder's abuse of blowing the Old Age Security Supplement on tins of cat food is an abomination of tax money.* These grey haired layabouts deserve to languish in poverty and squalor.


----------



## MacDoc

Still in denial of reality or responsibility.......along with the lap puppies here....

so petty little manipulations .... asses all. 

Tories bar opposition MPs from official delegation at climate talks - The Globe and Mail

meanwhile Australia moves forward 

Australia passes carbon tax on big polluters - World - CBC News


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> This makes absolutely no sense... I think you need to re-think and post again... flawed logic to say the least.
> 
> And uh no you implied it...


Thanks for coming out. I posted what was posted with intent. 

My comment is that seniors were buying pet food, for pets, clearly an extravagance, how anything else is discerned that I was posting about food for humans is beyond me.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Thanks for coming out. I posted what was posted with intent.
> 
> My comment is that seniors were buying pet food, for pets, clearly an extravagance, how anything else is discerned that I was posting about food for humans is beyond me.


A ruse that no thinking person would believe... how duplicitous.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Still in denial of reality or responsibility.......*along with the lap puppies here.*...
> 
> so petty little manipulations .... asses all.
> 
> Tories bar opposition MPs from official delegation at climate talks - The Globe and Mail
> 
> meanwhile Australia moves forward
> 
> Australia passes carbon tax on big polluters - World - CBC News


Your lap puppy comment has been used by you what... 1000 times now. Can you not come up with something a little more original? Exactly whose lap do you sit in... Hmmm??? Or do you really fancy yourself to be that independent in your thinking? If you do then please extend the same respect to those who you consider to be your political foe.

Why the hell don't you emigrate already to your land of peaches and cream....


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Beause the Star is about as anti-Con as they come... that is why... even worse than the CBC... no balance at all and people complain about the Sun...
> 
> The Sun is as bad in its way, but the Star is no better when it comes to presenting an obvious editorial position...
> 
> I would have thought an intelligent well read person would have understood this by now.


I agree. There's little balance in this rag and way, way, too much advertising.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Thanks for coming out. I posted what was posted with intent.
> 
> My comment is that seniors were buying pet food, for pets, clearly an extravagance, how anything else is discerned that I was posting about food for humans is beyond me.


see, you're not a thinking person, show some respect! How dare you have a little funny at someone's expense!

nice one though


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> I agree. There's little balance in this rag and way, way, too much advertising.


The star is biased?

Who'd a thunk it.


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> I for one am ecstatic that the Harper Government is giving more consideration to criminals than to seniors.
> 
> The elder's abuse of blowing the Old Age Security Supplement on tins of cat food is an abomination of tax money. These grey haired layabouts deserve to languish in poverty and squalor.
> 
> You have to praise our Glorious Leader for his priorities. Take the young off the streets keep'em in jails and prisons until they old an feeble. Spend the money on less rights for the inmates and longer sentences that'ill learn'em a thing or two. We can always find some third world migrant worker from some hell hole not nearly as miserable as our prisons to do the work.
> 
> Never mind that a person who feels they have nothing to lose becomes the most dangerous person on earth, when they're old and feeble how much trouble could a person be?





screature said:


> A ruse that no thinking person would believe... how duplicitous.


Questioning my veracity only on cat food, and not the rest of my post above, shakes head, in total disbelief.



groovetube said:


> see, you're not a thinking person, show some respect! How dare you have a little funny at someone's expense!
> 
> nice one though


I am not thinking, therefore I do not exist?

I shall not post a bunch of :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: or any : should I receive all expensed paid trip to Coventry.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Questioning my veracity only on cat food, and not the rest of my post above, shakes head, in total disbelief.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not thinking, therefore I do not exist?
> 
> I shall not post a bunch of :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: or any : should I receive all expensed paid trip to Coventry.


oh nooos! Not the coventry!

funniest vb option ever though.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I'm pleased that is your only complaint regarding Our Glorious Leader's treatment favouring criminals with real money over his attitude towards seniors.
> 
> *Oh by the way! You are the only one indicating the seniors are eating cat food.*


It is only the most obvious complaint. Can't waste time on the rest of the nonsense.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Still in denial of reality or responsibility.......along with the lap puppies here....
> 
> so petty little manipulations .... asses all.
> 
> Tories bar opposition MPs from official delegation at climate talks - The Globe and Mail
> 
> meanwhile Australia moves forward
> 
> Australia passes carbon tax on big polluters - World - CBC News


A applaud Harper from barring people holding questionable opinions from officially representing Canada. Let them go on their own dime.

Australia? Moving backwards. That tax will be rescinded when Julia is heaved out of office.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It is only the most obvious complaint. Can't waste time on the rest of the nonsense.


I understand, being outraged over cat food, is a gut response?

Never mind the real issues for seniors having to make real, difficult, everyday decisions regarding whether to purchase food or medications or heat should not be on *right thinking* mind now should it.

By action the Conservatives do not give much consideration to seniors, by deed the Conservatives give much more thought to the so called evil doers. 

Cutting off debate, not listening to facts and boldly going ahead with dogmatic ideology to be punitive to offenders thereby costing taxpayer more money with no return.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I understand, being outraged over cat food, is a gut response?
> 
> Never mind the real issues for seniors having to make real, difficult, everyday decisions regarding whether to purchase food or medications or heat should not be on *right thinking* mind now should it.
> 
> By action the Conservatives do not give much consideration to seniors, by deed the Conservatives give much more thought to the so called evil doers.
> 
> Cutting off debate, not listening to facts and boldly going ahead with dogmatic ideology to be punitive to offenders thereby costing taxpayer more money with no return.


This is just a false comparison. I could easily say that any time someone buys a Tim Horton's coffee, they're denying that money to charity--because they think more of their own enjoyment than curing cancer.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> This is just a false comparison. I could easily say that any time someone buys a Tim Horton's coffee, they're denying that money to charity--because they think more of their own enjoyment than curing cancer.


Well save and except that Harper and the Conservative base wanted an election instead of lifting seniors out of poverty as Jack Layton wisely suggested.The cost of the election equalled the cost helping seniors out of poverty.

The Government willfully goes ahead limiting debate, advise, and facts, hell bent on being punitive to offenders and to keep "their word" to do this in 100 days. Spending resources on offenders not seniors.

Therefore the comparison's comparison is an epic fail as is Our Glorious Leader's ideological dogmatic policies to satisfy his minions. But as long as some rugged individualists are well satisfied I guess that's all that matters.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well save and except that Harper and the Conservative base wanted an election instead of lifting seniors out of poverty as Jack Layton wisely suggested.The cost of the election equalled the cost helping seniors out of poverty.
> 
> The Government willfully goes ahead limiting debate, advise, and facts, hell bent on being punitive to offenders and to keep "their word" to do this in 100 days. Spending resources on offenders not seniors.
> 
> Therefore the comparison's comparison is an epic fail as is Our Glorious Leader's ideological dogmatic policies to satisfy his minions. But as long as some rugged individualists are well satisfied I guess that's all that matters.


Just more false comparisons. Our glorious BigDL is wasting time typing on EhMac instead of helping seniors clean their homes.


----------



## BigDL

Well the satisfaction levels in proper Toronto must be through the roof.


----------



## MacDoc

> *Ottawa accused of hoarding wheat board fund
> *STEVEN CHASE
> OTTAWA— From Thursday's Globe and Mail
> Published Wednesday, Nov. 16, 2011 10:20PM EST
> 
> The Harper government, which styles itself “farmers first,” is being accused of hoarding Canadian Wheat Board gains that should be paid to grain growers


continues
Ottawa accused of hoarding wheat board fund - The Globe and Mail

these guys know no shame 

Muloonie meltdown on schedule as they manage to **** off more and more Canadians to serve Harpos "awash in cash and credit" corporate hogs.


----------



## groovetube

Jean Chrétien recalls how Canada almost became Greece - The Globe and Mail

Are we headed for more of the same?

We have a government, who just looooves to spend spend spend, while their supporters chant less government spending, and cite things like the cbc, and political party subsidies (which the tories went on to waste a similar amount of money the next day on more tory riding pork barrelling...) I see no evidence of his party being able to get spending under control whatsoever. Just one that tells it's supporters that the other guy is tax and spend, while it simply transfers $$ from one thing they don't like, only to spend it on something they do like.

That's the reality.


----------



## mrjimmy

Did this ninny learn nothing from the election?

PC leader Tim Hudak warns he?ll pull plug on Liberals ?if necessary?


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Did this ninny learn nothing from the election?
> 
> PC leader Tim Hudak warns he?ll pull plug on Liberals ?if necessary?


All Harper needs is this firecracker nincompoop running roughshod in Ontario before the next fed election.

Like a hole in his head.


----------



## groovetube

You’ve changed - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


> The New Democrats sent up backbencher Dan Harris just before Question Period yesterday with the following.
> 
> Mr. Speaker, when in opposition the Conservatives were outraged by an arrogant government that hid from the opposition by invoking closure. Now they have done it nine times since the election. The Minister of Public Safety once said: “For the government to bring in closure and time allocation is wrong. It sends out the wrong message to the people of Canada. It tells the people of Canada that the government is afraid.” The Minister of Canadian Heritage decried: “…the arrogance of the government in invoking closure again.” The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration once called it “…yet more unfortunate evidence of the government’s growing arrogance.” One more quote. “The government is simply increasingly embarrassed by the state of the debate and it needs to move on.” That one was from the Prime Minister himself. These out of touch Conservatives came here to change Ottawa. Instead, Ottawa changed them. In six short years they have become everything they used to oppose.


It seems con supporters are curiously silent these days.


----------



## Macfury

Pull the plug.


----------



## groovetube

Clement denies he doctored record of his G8 testimony - The Globe and Mail

wow this is getting stinkier and stinkier.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Clement denies he doctored record of his G8 testimony - The Globe and Mail
> 
> wow this is getting stinkier and stinkier.


TC is above all else a politician. By definition politicians are pathological liars. Were it to turn out he was telling the truth, that would be a major news story indeed. 

In the meantime they are all liars whether they be black with white stripes down their backs or white with black stripes. Either way the stench is equally unbearable.


----------



## groovetube

we handed these liars a majority. With promises of accountability and howls from their supporters that no, they won't be like the liberals.

First year into a majority. They're on a fast track to lying and stealing beyond what previous governments did. They should have been kept to a minority.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> we handed these liars a majority. With promises of accountability and howls from their supporters that no, they won't be like the liberals.
> 
> First year into a majority. They're on a fast track to lying and stealing beyond what previous governments did. They should have been kept to a minority.


...and they can't count high enough to have sufficient revenues to keep pace with their spending habits to end out with a balanced budget.

The Conservative government are leading with their ideology cut taxes and spend without a worry as they have a huge limit on the national credit card.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> ...and they can't count high enough to have sufficient revenues to keep pace with their spending habits to end out with a balanced budget.
> 
> The Conservative government are leading with their ideology cut taxes and spend without a worry as they have a huge limit on the national credit card.


we're headed for another repeat of the last conservative disaster left to us to clean up.

Same BS, low taxes, higher spending. Funny how that never really ends well eh?


----------



## MacDoc

Ontario shafted again



> Ontario’s dwindling appeal to immigrants prompts funding cut from Ottawa - The Globe and Mail


He says rest of provinces.....but Quebec gets more per immigrant than any other province - don't see the cuts there



> "The problem we now have is that in Ontario, currently, we are funding about $3,400 per immigrant for settlement services, but in the rest of Canada, *outside Quebec,* we are funding $2,900 per immigrant," the minister said.


more anti-Ontario crap from Harpo 

but oh for sure let the oil pigs line up for their annual subsidized feeding at the trough....


----------



## groovetube

Harpo has his scapegoat here with McGuinty.

Just why do you think, Hudak went from landslide to losing to a very unpopular premier?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Ontario shafted again


As Ontario follows your model for green energy and a thriving, sustainable economy it continues to sink, MacDoc. This is a necessary adjustment commensurate with Ontario's failure. Transfer payments from Newfoundland to Canada's proud new have-not province will make up the difference.


----------



## groovetube

and right on cue.

Completely duped. Atom thinks investing it's in green tech that is responsible for Ontario's woes. How deluded, could you possible get?

Put down, the kool-aid atom man.

I had to laugh, the other day seeing Hudak looking like he was hepped up on screamers, spouting how McGuinty was blaming economic problems on the european debt crisis etc that is currently occurring, I was thinking how funny it would be if they immediately turned to a clip of Flaherty and Harper doing that very thing.

I guess con men are just better at the BS.


----------



## groovetube

An open letter to Canadian journalists - CAJ

And I say, good luck to them trying to deal with THE most secretive government in Canadian history.

But they're right, there is simply no reason why, the Canadian people aren't allowed answers to questions, and why any politician should be able to pick and choose the questions or the questioner.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> An open letter to Canadian journalists - CAJ
> 
> And I say, good luck to them trying to deal with THE most secretive government in Canadian history.
> 
> But they're right, there is simply no reason why, the Canadian people aren't allowed answers to questions, and why any politician should be able to pick and choose the questions or the questioner.


You had to go back 18 months to find that out of date piece? It was part of the May newsletter. May 2010 that is.


----------



## groovetube

actually it was an interesting link shared by some well known journalists on twitter today after they expressed frustration at not having any of their questions answered by government. I thought it was interesting so I shared it. Is that all you could say about it?

Care to address the subject matter, or are you too, embarrassed by this farce of a government to laugh in the face of Canadians after promising openness and transparency?

Speaking of secrecy, global is running a piece right now on the stupidity of Canada following what the US is now backtracking on in our new crime bill, which will cost Canadians an obscene amount of tax money. No wonder the conservatives refuse to answer any questions on the costs.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> You had to go back 18 months to find that out of date piece? It was part of the May newsletter. May 2010 that is.


SINC, I hope we don't start seeing finger-wagging about the Gerda Munsinger affair next.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> SINC, I hope we don't start seeing finger-wagging about the Gerda Munsinger affair next.


MF, either that or it will be a rally against the GST.


----------



## groovetube

I can see how something so embarrassing is best dealt with humour only.

If I supported a party that promised all this only to kick me in the face, I suppose I'd try to make a joke of it too. 

I find it kinda fascinating how individualists so repulsed by nanny states suddenly become nearly comatose when faced with the idea that our budgets and taxes will likely skyrocket because of these incredibly insane 'nanny state' policies. Actually responding to this probably, isn't likely.


----------



## SINC

I rarely respond to something that makes no sense.


----------



## groovetube

I'm not surprised Sinc. You supported a party that promised you openness, and transparency. You got the complete opposite. It's not opinion, it's well known fact.

I'm interested in hearing how conservatives feel about these new crime bills that will cost the canadian taxpayer just obscene amounts of money, despite overwhelming evidence that it won't work. US states are closing jails because they have realized after decades that it is a failed policy and an unbelievably expensive one.

No comment I bet.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I'm not surprised Sinc. You supported a party that promised you openness, and transparency. You got the complete opposite. It's not opinion, it's well known fact.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing how conservatives feel about these new crime bills that will cost the canadian taxpayer just obscene amounts of money, despite overwhelming evidence that it won't work. US states are closing jails because they have realized after decades that it is a failed policy and an unbelievably expensive one.
> 
> No comment I bet.


Only that you obviously do not read threads thoroughly or you would know that your statement is crap.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Only that you obviously do not read threads thoroughly or you would know that your statement is crap.


SINC, what do you expect from the only person I ever heard admit that he watched SUN TV?


----------



## SINC

Yeah, I noticed it, but I didn't want to cause embarrassment. Even I did not not watch SUN TV.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Only that you obviously do not read threads thoroughly or you would know that your statement is crap.


really? Then why such responses?

Where did you express such concern for this?

As for SunTV, how does one have anything to say about it without having watched at least some of it? Why would it be embarrassing to say you watched some of a pretty bad quality channel? Unless you're one of those people who are too interested in what others think...


----------



## BigDL

I love the denying, the "we say it ain't so, so it ain't so."

The Conservative Government isn't going to spend billions as a result of the tough on crime agenda that will end badly. The Conservative Government aren't going to spend more than 75 million per copy of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter with all the bells and whistle attached, because they said so. 

These are the same kind of folks that insist, with total disregard to empirical evidence and widely held agreement by experts in the field, that global warming isn't caused human activity. Why? All because industry developing hydrocarbons got to politicians of a certain mind set. Those politicians declared it "ain't so," so the minions are walled in "Fort It Ain't So." Fortress Conservative if you will.

GT sadly it is a mind set of the "brick wall defence." Don't be frustrated by such a mind set. No one can ever change such a mind.

I would suggest your posts always be aimed at the individuals reading this forums enumerated in the last column "Views." I should think fair minded people look into threads from time to time and could be swayed by reasoned opinion. A flat out "no it ain't" comments hurled from behind the brick walls defence of "Fort It Ain't So" will appeal to few, well except those behind the brick walls of propaganda.

The fact that members of the media are disturbed by the Conservative control of information and refuse to allow open access to the public's information and open and informed debate should alarm us all.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> I love the denying, the "we say it ain't so, so it ain't so."
> 
> <snip>
> 
> comments hurled from behind the brick walls defence of "Fort It Ain't So" will appeal to few, well except those behind the brick walls of propaganda.


It must be sad to have to carry that much hatred for a political party around with you every day, for likely the next seven years or so.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> It must be sad to have to carry that much hatred for a political party around with you every day, for likely the next seven years or so.


I think he'd better brace himself for about a decade or so. Even then, it won't be a big orange wave come to save him.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Only that you obviously do not read threads thoroughly or you would know that your statement is crap.


ah. Just the usual blowhard stuff.

It appears my statement wasn't full of crap at all. Looks like someone else is though.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I love the denying, the "we say it ain't so, so it ain't so."
> 
> The Conservative Government isn't going to spend billions as a result of the tough on crime agenda that will end badly. The Conservative Government aren't going to spend more than 75 million per copy of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter with all the bells and whistle attached, because they said so.
> 
> These are the same kind of folks that insist, with total disregard to empirical evidence and widely held agreement by experts in the field, that global warming isn't caused human activity. Why? All because industry developing hydrocarbons got to politicians of a certain mind set. Those politicians declared it "ain't so," so the minions are walled in "Fort It Ain't So." Fortress Conservative if you will.
> 
> GT sadly it is a mind set of the "brick wall defence." Don't be frustrated by such a mind set. No one can ever change such a mind.
> 
> I would suggest your posts always be aimed at the individuals reading this forums enumerated in the last column "Views." I should think fair minded people look into threads from time to time and could be swayed by reasoned opinion. A flat out "no it ain't" comments hurled from behind the brick walls defence of "Fort It Ain't So" will appeal to few, well except those behind the brick walls of propaganda.
> 
> The fact that members of the media are disturbed by the Conservative control of information and refuse to allow open access to the public's information and open and informed debate should alarm us all.


it sort of is aimed there. I don't think for a second any of these so called conservatives would ever admit to the obvious. They've shown their complete hypocrisy by criticizing ONLY if it's a liberal, and staying completely silent when the conservatives engage in lying, cheating/stealing, etc 

I'm told I'm full of crap, however, I see no attempt to show that. Another one of those "we say it's so" things.

Yesterday on the news, in regards to the tough on crime agenda, they put it pretty well in one go. It's good politics today, but tomorrow's problem.

That pretty much sums up the new conservative's path here.


----------



## BigDL

I survived the social experiment that was the Mulroney Government. I did feel anger towards Mulroney but that was because of abuse, initiated by Mulroney, suffered by of friends of mine.

It only took Mulroney, two back to back majority governments, to totally destroy the Progressive Conservative Party.

I am trepidatious for our democracy. 

The need for control and secrecy by the Conservative Government, the lack of transparency and accountability is scary. 

We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I survived the social experiment that was the Mulroney Government.


So did between 20 and 30 million other Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I survived the social experiment that was the Mulroney Government. I did feel anger towards Mulroney but that was because of abuse, initiated by Mulroney, suffered by of friends of mine.
> 
> It only took Mulroney, two back to back majority governments, to totally destroy the Progressive Conservative Party.
> 
> I am trepidatious for our democracy.
> 
> The need for control and secrecy by the Conservative Government, the lack of transparency and accountability is scary.
> 
> We shall see.


This is just the start. I bet there is far more than we actually know about.

The truth is, I was fine with Harper being in minority. It isn't the ideal situation, but as long as any of them don't have absolute power, which seems to be the Canadian way, it minimizes the damage one party can do.

It just astounds me to watch the same people who howled endlessly about the liberals suddenly fall completely silent about the disastrous policies of the Harper government. If they expressed anything at all it would least give them an ounce of credibility.


----------



## eMacMan

Despite the secrecy, I think we need only look South of the border to see where King Harpo wishes to lead the nation.

While racking up big bills with the bigger badder prison system, expect more spending and maybe even a few tax cuts to help put Canada on the financial canvas. Follow the US into Syria, Iran and presumably Pakistan to even further inflate the deficit.

Once they have us in the same financial mess as the US, Greece, Italy... expect an all out attack on Canada Pension and Medicare, claiming it is the only way to stave off bankruptcy. 

Gawd help us all if Global Warming is indeed nothing more than Financial fraud, as more than a few of us old-timers may well freeze to death.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Despite the secrecy, I think we need only look South of the border to see where King Harpo wishes to lead the nation.
> 
> While racking up big bills with the bigger badder prison system, expect more spending and maybe even a few tax cuts to help put Canada on the financial canvas. Follow the US into Syria, Iran and presumably Pakistan to even further inflate the deficit.
> 
> Once they have us in the same financial mess as the US, Greece, Italy... expect an all out attack on Canada Pension and Medicare, claiming it is the only way to stave off bankruptcy.


Proof?


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Despite the secrecy, I think we need only look South of the border to see where King Harpo wishes to lead the nation.
> 
> While racking up big bills with the bigger badder prison system, expect more spending and maybe even a few tax cuts to help put Canada on the financial canvas. Follow the US into Syria, Iran and presumably Pakistan to even further inflate the deficit.
> 
> Once they have us in the same financial mess as the US, Greece, Italy... expect an all out attack on Canada Pension and Medicare, claiming it is the only way to stave off bankruptcy.
> 
> Gawd help us all if Global Warming is indeed nothing more than Financial fraud, as more than a few of us old-timers may well freeze to death.


yes eMacMan, prove that the US has realized it's failed policy of budget busting expensive superjail policies (it's only on every news channel in existence except for FOX I suppose).

And no way the US spent itself into oblivion with it's wars. No way. Prove it. I don't for one second believe any of it.

:baby:


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Ontario shafted again
> 
> He says rest of provinces.....but Quebec gets more per immigrant than any other province - don't see the cuts there
> 
> more anti-Ontario crap from Harpo
> 
> but oh for sure let the oil pigs line up for their annual subsidized feeding at the trough....





Macfury said:


> As Ontario follows your model for green energy and a thriving, sustainable economy it continues to sink, MacDoc. This is a necessary adjustment commensurate with Ontario's failure. Transfer payments from Newfoundland to Canada's proud new have-not province will make up the difference.


My understanding is that the money is being distributed according to immigration patterns and the west has been experiencing much greater immigration than the rest of the country while Ontario is in decline, even the east coast has been experiencing more immigration.

Ontario has ruled the roost since the beginning of Confederation and now that they are no longer top dog some people just can't get used to that fact....


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Proof?


The failure to pull out of Afghanistan as and when originally promised. Libya, no need at all for Canada's expensive contribution. F-35s. The crime bill. The G-8/G-20 police state response to mainly peaceful demonstrations. The calls for police state powers to fight "terrorism". The deficit that spirals upwards despite the ongoing Con job of fiscal responsibility.......

The writing as they say is on the Subway Walls.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> It must be sad to have to carry that much hatred for a political party around with you every day, for likely the next seven years or so.


The foregoing comment is on par with "I don't care what people say about you, but you're OK in my books" or "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Could this be a projection of a personally held belief projected onto others or was it a set up to brag on Harper being in power for a few more years?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> The foregoing comment is on par with "I don't care what people say about you, but you're OK in my books" or "When did you stop beating your wife?"
> 
> Could this be a projection of a personally held belief projected onto others or was it a set up to brag on Harper being in power for a few more years?


sabre rattling, which seems his specialty in these sorts of conversations. It's generally what cons resort to when faced with any criticism that appears valid. You certainly wouldn't want to talk about anything bad going on with the government if it's your party of choice in power now would you! Just brag about power. screw you, you'll have to put up or shut up!

The conservative way.

This just in, harsher penalties (and the insane tax dollars it takes...) proven ineffective! Who knew???

Federal report casts doubt on effect of tougher penalties for impaired driving - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

Conservatives admit they?re behind false byelection calls for Liberal MP Irwin Cotler's riding | News | National Post

What us? What's wrong wid dat?

These clowns are just unbelievable. They've conditioned voters almost to the point where they know they can just get away with crap like this. It should get more interesting as their 'mandate' soldiers on.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> These clowns are just unbelievable. They've conditioned voters almost to the point where they know they can just get away with crap like this. It should get more interesting as their 'mandate' soldiers on.


Unfortunately, SINC et al. are right when they say we're likely stuck with the Cons for at least another 6 to 7 years. The Liberals won't be able to mount anything resembling a credible campaign during the next election, and the NDP are still viewed as too 'socialist' for many Canadians.

So one of two things will happen. Either the Cons will continue their agenda of Americanizing Canada to the extent that Canadians start to balk and consider the NDP as the lesser of two evils, or the Cons will moderate and become what the Liberals used to be; the 'Natural Ruling Party of Canada.' Personally, I'd prefer the latter, but Harper seems hell-bent for the former.


----------



## groovetube

I don't disagree at all. And I have no doubt that what we've seen this past year is merely a precursor to what we'll see in the next 3-7 years.

I find it incredibly hypocritical that all the criticisms I listened to of the previous governments, the same people are remarkably silent and quite defensive if they do say something in the face of a current government pulling many of the same BS the previous ones did.


----------



## groovetube

Emails contradict MacKay on chopper flight from fishing hole - The Globe and Mail

ah the hits keep on comin.

This coming from our we need to tighten our belts government who preaches small government but oh we need to make the house of commons BIGGER!

lol.


----------



## BigDL

A Big Yellow Taxi Picked up Minister of National Defence with apologies to Joni Mitchell 




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> I find it incredibly hypocritical that all the criticisms I listened to of the previous governments, the same people are remarkably silent and quite defensive if they do say something in the face of a current government pulling many of the same BS the previous ones did.


Hypocrisy?!? About politics? Shocking. 

I genuinely can't imagine anyone really expecting Harper to be 'transparent' or show any evidence of integrity or respect for the majority of Canadians, given his record before he was PM. So, like the liberal cronies who were gorging at the trough before them, the current Conservative cronies are doing all they can to paint the current administration in the best light possible in order to keep the payola going for as long as they can. Same as it ever was. 

Anyone not on the receiving end of this payola who's supporting the conservatives is either too dumb to recognize how badly we're all getting shafted, or is willing to accept that in exchange for some support for some ideological position they happen to share with the current government.


----------



## MacDoc

as Tommy D said.....same cats....different stripes...


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yep, they're quickly making themselves out to be true scuzzbuckets.

More to come.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Yep, they're quickly making themselves out to be true scuzzbuckets.
> 
> More to come.


Watch it there jimbo... lest ye be accused of hate mongering.


----------



## SINC

Come to think of it, it's more like paranoia.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Watch it there jimbo... lest ye be accused of hate mongering.


yeah all the skulduggery is merely in our minds.

At least that's how they prefer people to see it.

Look! Shiny ball!


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> ...or is willing to accept that in exchange for some support for some ideological position they happen to share with the current government.


Exactly. Why complain if you see nothing of value in the other parties, and only a little in this one? So one of those other parties can come to power? Forget it!


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Hypocrisy?!? About politics? Shocking.
> 
> I genuinely can't imagine anyone really expecting Harper to be 'transparent' or show any evidence of integrity or respect for the majority of Canadians, given his record before he was PM. So, like the liberal cronies who were gorging at the trough before them, the current Conservative cronies are doing all they can to paint the current administration in the best light possible in order to keep the payola going for as long as they can. Same as it ever was.
> 
> Anyone not on the receiving end of this payola who's supporting the conservatives is either *too dumb to recognize how badly we're all getting shafted,* or is willing to accept that in exchange for some support for some ideological position they happen to share with the current government.


Nice hyperbole.... However, please explain exactly how you personally are being shafted by this *federal* administration more than the one that came before this?

Personally I am not in the least, not federally... municipally I am big time...

So many people just look at their own personal bottom line and think "well it must be the Fed's fault" if they aren't doing as well... Hate to break it to you but there are two other levels of government that more directly and intimately affect your general sense of well being before the Fed's have any jurisdiction...


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha.

A great post highlighting the fact that this government, is no different than the last one. What was his first clue 

Right over his head.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Why complain if you see nothing of value in the other parties, and only a little in this one? So one of those other parties can come to power? Forget it!


So you're suggesting everyone should just just keep quiet about all this skulduggery then.

Yes everyone, be quiet. Just be nice quiet little Canadians like our atom smasher here and let them do whatever they like, cause they're conservatives!

You've got to be kidding.


----------



## MacDoc

> OTTAWA—A senior air force officer warned against using a search-and-rescue helicopter to pick up Defence Minister Peter MacKay from a fishing trip last year because of the backlash that would occur if the public found out, according to emails obtained by the Toronto Star.
> 
> The estimated cost for the flight aboard the Gander-based Cormorant helicopter was $16,000. A cheaper alternative route from the fishing camp to the Gander, Nfld., airport would have involved a 90-minute boat ride followed by a 30-minute drive, according to defence department messages obtained through the Access to Information Act.
> 
> Word of MacKay’s flight leaked out this fall, raising questions about politicians using military resources for their personal business. He has insisted the flight was a chance to carry out a long-delayed search-and-rescue (SAR) demonstration.
> 
> The Star sought information that would show the arrangements made for the 25-minute flight on July 9. The emails received have raised doubts about MacKay’s version of events.
> 
> “The documents certainly do not back up the minister’s story,” said David Christopherson, the NDP defence critic.
> 
> MacKay’s travel plans sent military personnel in three provinces scrambling to fulfill a last-minute request that he be collected from the remote Burnt Rattle fishing lodge on the Gander River.
> 
> He wanted to catch a flight aboard the military’s Challenger jet to London, Ont., to attend a hastily arranged government announcement.
> 
> The request from MacKay’s office went out to senior air force officials on Tuesday July 6 at 8:49 a.m. It took just a few hours for then-Col. Bruce Ploughman, director of the Combined Aerospace Operations Centre in Winnipeg, to raise a red flag.
> 
> “So, when the guy who’s fishing at the fishing hole next to the minister sees the big yellow helicopter arrive and decides to use his cellphone to video the minister getting on board and post it on Youtube (sic), who will be answering the mail on that one,” he wrote to colleagues in Ottawa and Winnipeg.
> 
> “If we are tasked to do this we of course will comply,” Ploughman continued. “Given the potential for negative press though, I would likely recommend against it.”
> 
> In the House of Commons on Thursday, MacKay faced numerous questions on the Star report. In all of his answers, he maintained the flight was a chance for him to combine his need to attend to government business with the air force wish that he witness a SAR demonstration.
> 
> But there is no mention in the records obtained by the Star of a scheduled training exercise or a standing offer to allow MacKay to see the highly trained crews at work.
> 
> It is not until the day after MacKay’s request was made, July 7, that orders go out from above approving the flight.
> 
> “This mission will be under the guise of . . . SAR (training).”
> 
> In the fall, Brig.-Gen. Sylvain Bédard was quoted saying that the flight provided “mutual gain” to MacKay and the air force. MacKay repeated this quote when he came under attack in the Commons Thursday.
> 
> “We had been looking to showcase the Cormorant’s capabilities and the search-and-rescue capabilities of the Canadian Forces to the minister,” Bédard told the St. John’s Telegram.
> 
> But air force officials actually drew up three possible evacuation scenarios. The CH-149 Cormorant factored into only one of those plans.
> 
> They first looked at sending a crew from CFB Gagetown, home to 403 Helicopter Operational Training Squadron in New Brunswick, but that would have involved a crew flying 10 hours over two days. A second option was the CH-146 Griffon helicopter fleet at Goose Bay, N.L., but that was too far away as well.
> 
> The fleet of three Cormorants in Gander was closest and would have to do the job.
> 
> But there was another problem. A quick reconnaissance flight revealed that the landing zone at MacKay’s fishing lodge was too small for the big helicopter to land.
> 
> MacKay’s office protested when they got the news. An air force official was told that the landing has been performed in the past.
> 
> “I am told … that last year the (minister of national defence) was flying near this location and the pilot landed there (at a spot near the shore, perhaps a short distance away),” wrote Col. Frances Allen, director of support operations with the Strategic Joint Staff in Ottawa.
> 
> “MND staff are going to try and find a name or other geographic reference to narrow your (reconnaissance) area.”
> 
> A spokesman for MacKay, Jay Paxton, refused to provide more detail on MacKay’s apparent 2009 flight to Burnt Rattle, which is co-owned by one of MacKay’s personal friends, the chair of a federal Crown corporation.
> 
> “Any previous flights in the area were in no way related to personal time,” he wrote in an email.
> 
> Within hours of MacKay’s request for a lift, the search-and-rescue squadron commander at Gander was fully engaged with the VIP mission confirming that MacKay would be lifted by hoist at 8 a.m. Friday morning, delivering him to the Gander airport 25 minutes later.
> 
> “They picked him up in the basket to take him to the Challenger jet,” said Christopherson. “It’s about as outrageous as you can get.”


Canada News: Air force warned about backlash over MacKay?s chopper flight - thestar.com

What next Harpo posing on the nuclear sub while his 65 fighter jets flight over....

••

Now I will give them credit that getting the much needed coastal ship building program going was well done and long overdue.

Too bad it's over shadowed by the deluge of malfeasance and poor judgement.


----------



## SINC

Yep, they offset the good they do with their silly antics. Come clean and let it die is the way to go. Denial obviously isn't working.


----------



## Macfury

Yep. Come clean and it will pass. Bob Rae never apologized for taking emergency airlifts to his cottage up north during his disastrous tenure as Ontario Premiers and his reputation never recovered.


----------



## groovetube

what exactly, is the good? And is the whatever the good is, is it worth the sheer nonsense they continue with?

I didn't think it was with the liberals, why on earth would I think it is with these jokers?

And if either of these parties are worth voting in, why shouldn't they be kept to a minority to minimize any damage any of them can do?

I think it's really just common sense.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> please explain exactly how you personally are being shafted by this *federal* administration more than the one that came before this?


Well, for me personally, it's their changes to NRC, NSERC, and various other science funding (as well as their now well-demonstrated anti-science philosophy in general), but I recognize that these are issues only to a small number of Canadians, so I wasn't going to bring them up.

What are major issues to Canadians are our increasingly embarrassing positions on global warming (I'll bet we get more Dinosaur of the Day Awards this time than we did at Copenhagen), covering up the fact that our banking system _did_ need bail outs, our coddling the oil industry, forsaking renewable energy and green jobs, privatizing health care, eviscerating the CBC, etc. etc. etc.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Well, for me personally, it's their changes to NRC, NSERC, and various other science funding (as well as their now well-demonstrated anti-science philosophy in general), but I recognize that these are issues only to a small number of Canadians, so I wasn't going to bring them up.
> 
> What are major issues to Canadians are our increasingly embarrassing positions on global warming (I'll bet we get more Dinosaur of the Day Awards this time than we did at Copenhagen), covering up the fact that our banking system _did_ need bail outs, our coddling the oil industry, forsaking renewable energy and green jobs, privatizing health care, eviscerating the CBC, etc. etc. etc.


Many think the government's position on global warming is correct and in fact is at least transparent unlike the Liberals who signed onto Kyoto and did exactly the opposite of what they said they would do, increasing emissions as opposed to reducing them... our banking system needing bails outs was not covered up because for all intents and purposes it was insignificant and was not necessary for their solvency... the oil industry produces 10s if not 100s of thousands of jobs... how has renewable energy been forsaken... green jobs should be produced by the private sector... health care has not been privatized what a joke .... the CBC has not been eviscerated, they received $1.3B last year...

So now if you have anything that actually addressees the question that I asked you, how have you personally been shafted by this administration any more than the previous one I am all ears as the ones you stated sound like they were read off of NDP talking points and are all easily refuted and clearly do not affect you in the least at a personal level.


----------



## groovetube

Conservatives target Irwin Cotler with Watergate-era dirty tricks campaign | Full Comment | National Post

aaaaand another example of why this government needs to be told this sort of thing is unacceptable

If we all do as macfury suggests, just be quiet and not complain like good little polite Canadians, this government will just continue doing whatever the hell it wants.

This, is just unbelievable. Cue references to liberals or blah blah defence.

There is no, excuse for this.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Many think the government's position on global warming is correct and in fact is at least transparent unlike the Liberals who signed onto Kyoto and did exactly the opposite of what they said they would do, increasing emissions as opposed to reducing them... our banking system needing bails outs was not covered up because for all intents and purposes it was insignificant and was not necessary for their solvency... the oil industry produces 10s if not 100s of thousands of jobs... how has renewable energy been forsaken... green jobs should be produced by the private sector... health care has not been privatized what a joke .... the CBC has not been eviscerated, they received $1.3B last year...
> 
> So now if you have anything that actually addressees the question that I asked you, how have you personally been shafted by this administration any more than the previous one I am all ears as the ones you stated sound like they were read off of NDP talking points and are all easily refuted and clearly do not affect you in the least at a personal level.


it appears he told you quite clearly in the first line, but you seemed to have missed that important part.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> if you have anything that actually addressees the question that I asked you, how have you personally...





bryanc said:


> Well, for me personally, it's their changes to NRC, NSERC, and various other science funding (as well as their now well-demonstrated anti-science philosophy in general)


Did this not address your question?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> What are major issues to Canadians are our increasingly embarrassing positions on global warming


To some Canadians and fewer and fewer of them. At least we can now share our terrible shame with the many countries, including Japan, who have kicked the idea of CO2 reduction targets in the teeth.


----------



## groovetube

misery loves company as they say.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Did this not address your question?


Did you loose funding? You stated a policy change.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> ...please explain exactly how you personally are being shafted by this *federal* administration more than the one that came before this?





bryanc said:


> Well, for me personally, it's their changes to NRC, NSERC, and various other science funding (as well as their now well-demonstrated anti-science philosophy in general), but I recognize that these are issues only to a small number of Canadians, so I wasn't going to bring them up.
> 
> What are major issues to Canadians are our increasingly embarrassing positions on global warming (I'll bet we get more Dinosaur of the Day Awards this time than we did at Copenhagen), covering up the fact that our banking system _did_ need bail outs, our coddling the oil industry, forsaking renewable energy and green jobs, privatizing health care, eviscerating the CBC, etc. etc. etc.





bryanc said:


> Did this not address your question?





screature said:


> Did you loose funding? You stated a policy change.


Personally I find this line of questioning a little creepy, maybe it's just me.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Personally I find this line of questioning a little creepy, maybe it's just me.


I think it is just you... what's creepy about wanting to know how a person who says we as a whole are getting shafted is personally getting shafted? It has to do with credibility and whether or not one can even justify such a statement on a personal level let alone making such a claim for all Canadians.

But I guess for someone used to making grandiose proclamations meant to speak for everyone else this would come as a foreign concept.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> I think it is just you... what's creepy about wanting to know how a person who says we as a whole are getting shafted is personally getting shafted? It has to do with credibility and whether or not one can even justify such a statement on a personal level let alone making such a claim for all Canadians.


I'm not going to go into the details of my own research funding, as I don't think that's an appropriate discussion for a public forum. Nor do I think it is necessary or even reasonable to bring the details of how federal policies affect them personally into a discussion of wether those policies are good for the Country. I do think it's reasonable for me to say that, in my opinion, the Harper government's policies regarding science funding and the utilization of science in policy are both deleterious to Canada's competitiveness, national reputation, and, most importantly, long term sustainability. Hence my support for the contention that Harper is "shafting" Canada as a whole.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Hence my support for the contention that Harper is "shafting" Canada as a whole.


Well, whatever has happened to the funding is just a drop in this big ocean called Canada. This reminds me of the type of headlines I usually see in trade publications. Bike World headline: "Bicycle research funding must be increased says bicycle manufacturers' group."


----------



## BigDL

*Is Back to Work Legislation in the works or is the Maritime economy not important?*

Will the Lockout/strike by Acadian Lines a significant issue to stall the "fragile economic recovery" for Our Glorious Leader to take action or are Maritimers not worth it as Our Glorious Leader's statement that we live "in a culture of defeat" going to rule the day?



CBC News said:


> Acadian Lines has locked out workers during an escalating contract dispute, shutting down bus services Friday.
> 
> ...While the biggest impact will be felt in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, the dispute's impacts will also be felt in Nova Scotia and Quebec.


Acadian Lines lockout strands Maritime travellers - Nova Scotia - CBC News


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I'm not going to go into the details of my own research funding, as I don't think that's an appropriate discussion for a public forum. N*or do I think it is necessary or even reasonable to bring the details of how federal policies affect them personally into a discussion of wether those policies are good for the Country.* I do think it's reasonable for me to say that, in my opinion, the Harper government's policies regarding science funding and the utilization of science in policy are both *deleterious to Canada's competitiveness, national reputation, and, most importantly, long term sustainability. Hence my support for the contention that Harper is "shafting" Canada as a whole.*


Well we will have to agree to disagree.. I see no validity in such a claim that cannot be supported without some personal experience of a generalized statement that speaks for all including ones self by the use of the words *we're all getting shafted*. So you choose not to defend your statement by expressing your own personal experience of being shafted... so be it, however therefore logically your global/universal claim has no validity due to your unwillingness to provide evidence.

And on this front we most certainly have to agree to disagree as well as the OECD and many other international organizations completely disagree with your personal assessment.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well on this front we most certainly have to agree to disagree as the OECD and many other international organizations completely disagree with your personal assessment.


Oddly enough, Canada's leadership in energy technologies and water treatment technologies is a direct result--I'm told--of favourable government investment policies in R&D.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Oddly enough, Canada's leadership in energy technologies and water treatment technologies is a direct result--I'm told--of favourable government investment policies in R&D.


Unless you provide with *all* of the evidence that will personally satisfy me, being personally told hold no validity what so ever. Another poster said as much so it must be true.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Unless you provide with *all* of the evidence that will personally satisfy me, being personally told hold no validity what so ever. Another poster said as much so it must be true.


No, this is purely anecdotal involving my discussions with several companies in both water purification and oil sands processing technologies. When I discovered that many of these technologies were being used by U.S. companies, I asked each of the companies why Canada was such a leader in these sectors and each of them cited favourable R&D policies by government. Went against my grain, but that's what they attributed it to.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Unless you provide with *all* of the evidence that will personally satisfy me, being personally told hold no validity what so ever. Another poster said as much so it must be true.


nice one sir!


----------



## Kosh

Man, he's got a fancy, expensive flying limo and driver. I thought minsters were told to cut down on drivers and cars.


----------



## Dr.G.

Kosh said:


> Man, he's got a fancy, expensive flying limo and driver. I thought minsters were told to cut down on drivers and cars.


Luckily, the pilot refused to land in the spot that the minister's staff chose for the pickup since a helicopter could not land in that spot without the possibility of a crash. So, they airlifted him up as if he was stranded on land or in the water. Great experience. Sadly, Search and Rescue here in NL will have the services of these helicopters moved to Halifax, even though 90% of their service is off the coast of NL. Well, if someone dies at sea because it takes too long to fly a helicopter from Halifax to off-shore NL, the minister will not be able to hide from that reality. We shall see.


----------



## BigDL

It's all right Dr.G. no need for concern here. 










Our Glorious Leader has determined that The Big Yellow Taxi that took away our ol' Petey was on government business. Nothing to see here. No intentional misleading of the House.

It's all government business, no monkey business, government business only, you have Our Glorious Leader's word on the matter.






"NOW just buzz off NOTHING to see here got it!"Our Glorious Leader Burlington Ontario Dec 2, 2011


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Unless you provide with *all* of the evidence that will personally satisfy me, being personally told hold no validity what so ever. Another poster said as much so it must be true.


Oh my god... did you actually read what you posted before you hit "Submit Reply"? It actually makes no grammatical sense let alone logical sense but continue to embarrass yourself by all means...

Christmas parties starting already? Have one for me.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Luckily, the pilot refused to land in the spot that the minister's staff chose for the pickup since a helicopter could not land in that spot without the possibility of a crash. So, they airlifted him up as if he was stranded on land or in the water. Great experience. Sadly, Search and Rescue here in NL will have the services of these helicopters moved to Halifax,* even though 90% of their service is off the coast of NL*. Well, if someone dies at sea because it takes too long to fly a helicopter from Halifax to off-shore NL, the minister will not be able to hide from that reality. We shall see.


Link Dr. G.? As an academic I would hope you can understand the reasons for my query.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> It's all right Dr.G. no need for concern here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Glorious Leader has determined that The Big Yellow Taxi that took away our ol' Petey was on government business. Nothing to see here. No intentional misleading of the House.
> 
> It's all government business, no monkey business, government business only, you have Our Glorious Leader's word on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "NOW just buzz off NOTHING to see here got it!"Our Glorious Leader Burlington Ontario Dec 2, 2011


I guess someone forgot to tell the military and Search and Rescue that he was on official business.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader has determined that The Big Yellow Taxi that took away our *ol' Petey *was on government business. Nothing to see here. No intentional misleading of the House.
> 
> It's all government business, no monkey business, government business only, you have Our Glorious Leader's word on the matter.
> 
> *"NOW just buzz off NOTHING to see here got it!"**Our Glorious Leader Burlington Ontario Dec 2, 2011*


Still partying eh...?

A complete fabrication.... and yet you complain about government "fabrications"... seems fundamentally you have no problem with it as you are more than willing to participate when it suits you and your purposes.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Link Dr. G.? As an academic I would hope you can understand the reasons for my query.


Sorry. Mea culpa. Of the over 600 calls for assistance in the North Atlantic, 538 were from distress calls off the provincial coastline of NL. 

MacKay's helicopter story doesn't fly, MPs say - Politics - CBC News
Newfoundland and Labrador Region - Marine Search and Rescue - Canadian Coast Guard
Criticism builds over rescue centre closure - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

man, the stamping of the feet is incredible.

no one say any-ting bad about the conservatives!

Or you will be grilled.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry. Mea culpa. Of the over 600 calls for assistance in the North Atlantic, 538 were from distress calls off the provincial coastline of NL.
> 
> MacKay's helicopter story doesn't fly, MPs say - Politics - CBC News
> Newfoundland and Labrador Region - Marine Search and Rescue - Canadian Coast Guard
> Criticism builds over rescue centre closure - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


This move makes no sense based on the statistics Dr. G. I intend to write my MP and voice my objection to such a move.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> This move makes no sense based on the statistics Dr. G. I intend to write my MP and voice my objection to such a move.


Good luck, Sinc. Our premier, who supported PM Harper in the last election, went to Ottawa to plead our case ......... but to no avail. Between the fishery and the off-shore oil wells, there is such a great need to have quick search and rescue ..... as was the case with the Couger helicopter crash going from St.John't to the Hibernia off-shore well in which all but one person died in the crash. He testified before a House committee on this matter that had he been in the water 20 more minutes, he would have been plucked from the cold North Atlantic dead.

Also, good for you to take the time to take a stand that does not directly have an effect upon you or your province. Merci, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> It's all right Dr.G. no need for concern here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Glorious Leader has determined that The Big Yellow Taxi that took away our ol' Petey was on government business. Nothing to see here. No intentional misleading of the House.
> 
> It's all government business, no monkey business, government business only, you have Our Glorious Leader's word on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "NOW just buzz off NOTHING to see here got it!"Our Glorious Leader Burlington Ontario Dec 2, 2011





screature said:


> Still partying eh...?
> 
> A complete fabrication.... and yet you complain about government "fabrications"... seems fundamentally you have no problem with it as you are more than willing to participate when it suits you and your purposes.


I was addressing Dr.G. and I believed he got it however I forgot about the Satirically Impaired therefore for those individuals consider the following as proceeding the Big Yellow Taxi post above;

WARNING: THIS IS A SATIRICAL LOOK AT RECENT EVENTS


----------



## SINC

This is just childish now.


----------



## groovetube

I think it got there before his post.


----------



## SINC

Nope, no one else is using the board like a blackboard. That is what is childish and that is my last comment on the subject.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Link Dr. G.? As an academic I would hope you can understand the reasons for my query.


Absolutely a fair cop. As an academic you should be ashamed, Dr. G. You made the claim of 90% and it turns out that the facts are that it was only 89.6666667%. Tsk Tsk!... you should be apologizing for impugning our Glorious Leader with such obviously trumped up "statistics".

No wonder the Conservatives want to do away with facets of the government that keep track of actual numbers when people like you are so prone to exaggeration and using them unfairly against them!


----------



## BigDL

WARNING: THIS IS A SATIRICAL LOOK AT RECENT EVENTS.

Not everyone may share this sense of humour, 

Caution is strongly advised:

Watch out bryanc, impugning Our Glorious Leader or the Conservative Party or indeed casting a shadow in the general direction of a Conservative supporter and/or cheerleader may land you in a position where you shall be admonished for any manner of hideous behaviours bordering on perversions of a unspeakable nature.

Until you can only praise Our Glorious Leader, the policies and actions of Conservatives Party and its supporters and cheerleader it wise to be aware of the re-education camps.


----------



## Macfury

Oh gosh, BigDL is on another unfunny tear. Beat it into the ground BigDL.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Oh gosh, BigDL is on another unfunny tear. Beat it into the ground BigDL.


Could revert to "say no more, say no more, know what'cha mean" somebody was extremely pleased or other wise by such antics.

Now which was it and who was it? Hmmm.


----------



## Macfury

That's the lame routine I remember...


----------



## eMacMan

We have to be fair to the Perhaps Somewhat Less than Honourable Mr. McKay.

He only used the Big Yellow Taxi because the Yellow Submarine was once again in dry dock.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> We have to be fair to the Perhaps Somewhat Less than Honourable Mr. McKay.
> 
> He only used the Big Yellow Taxi because the Yellow Submarine was once again in dry dock.


:lmao:Where's that dang like button when you need it. :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> Absolutely a fair cop. As an academic you should be ashamed, Dr. G. You made the claim of 90% and it turns out that the facts are that it was only 89.6666667%. Tsk Tsk!... you should be apologizing for impugning our Glorious Leader with such obviously trumped up "statistics".
> 
> No wonder the Conservatives want to do away with facets of the government that keep track of actual numbers when people like you are so prone to exaggeration and using them unfairly against them!


I stand corrected, bryanc.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry. Mea culpa. Of the over 600 calls for assistance in the North Atlantic, 538 were from distress calls off the provincial coastline of NL.
> 
> MacKay's helicopter story doesn't fly, MPs say - Politics - CBC News
> Newfoundland and Labrador Region - Marine Search and Rescue - Canadian Coast Guard
> Criticism builds over rescue centre closure - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


Thanks Dr. G. although the only link that was actually relevant to my question was the second one.

So I have another question. This is a sub-centre where the calls are received and managed but does it affect where the ships and helicopters are stationed? In other words how does it affect the logistics of rescues and the assets being deployed? As no where do I see it indicated that the assets will be moved to NS, just the control sub-centre functions.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I stand corrected, bryanc.


yes, and 'as an academic', you should also have known better than to include frivolous links to information too!


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Thanks Dr. G. although the only link that was actually relevant to my question was the second one.
> 
> So I have another question. This is a sub-centre where the calls are received and managed but does it affect where the ships and helicopters are stationed? In other words how does it affect the logistics of rescues and the assets being deployed? As no where do I see it indicated that the assets will be moved to NS, just the control sub-centre functions.


There were 7 at one time, but SAR in NL are now down to three helicopters.

Search and Rescue Squadron based out of Gander operates three CH-149s. Our other four were moved to NS. These four are now based out of Greenwood, NS. 

The problem is that two helicopters are rotated through for maintenance and training purposes, and thus not on stand-by for SAR flights. This why there is such flak with Minister Mackay's flight, since Search and Rescue's commitment to off-shore safety was compromised while they went to pick up the Minister, since they did not use the training helicopter, but rather, the SAR helicopter that was on stand-by for real emergencies.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> yes, and 'as an academic', you should also have known better than to include frivolous links to information too!


I know, I know. I have already given my "mea culpas". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

3 bows to an image of our glorious leader (with a picture of our queen nearby) oughta do it.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> There were 7 at one time, but SAR in NL are now down to three helicopters.
> 
> Search and Rescue Squadron based out of Gander operates three CH-149s. Our other four were moved to NS. These four are now based out of Greenwood, NS.
> 
> The problem is that two helicopters are rotated through for maintenance and training purposes, and thus not on stand-by for SAR flights. This why there is such flak with Minister Mackay's flight, since Search and Rescue's commitment to off-shore safety was compromised while they went to pick up the Minister, since they did not use the training helicopter, but rather, the SAR helicopter that was on stand-by for real emergencies.


Well then if that is indeed the case you and the citizens of NFLD and Labrador indeed have an issue that is is of grave concern. 

However, once again could you please provide your point of reference. It isn't that I don't believe you, but I have been in the business of politics long enough not to take third hand information at face value as there are often misunderstandings and misappropriation and interpretation of the facts.

I am a skeptic at heart (it was bred into me around the dinner table by a father who constantly played devil's advocate and so I don't take anything at face value).

Despite your jocularity with others here regarding the seriousness of my posts and their intention I am really only trying to figure out why such a policy would be made if, as you and others have framed it, it is so fundamentally lacking... at least on the face of it.


----------



## groovetube

unbelievable. Isn't it funny how suddenly people lose all ability to research things on their own?

I would have thought that being a superior with bullet proof credentials of all things political with being on parliament hill would have given some extra special abilities to find the truth about something that should, be readily available.

Unless of course our glorious leader has deemed this information also as inaccessible to the sheep.. er citizens of Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Well then if that is indeed the case you and the citizens of NFLD and Labrador indeed have an issue that is is of grave concern.
> 
> However, once again could you please provide your point of reference. It isn't that I don't believe you, but I have been in the business of politics long enough not to take third hand information at face value as there are often misunderstandings and misappropriation and interpretation of the facts.
> 
> I am a skeptic at heart (it was bred into me around the dinner table by a father who constantly played devil's advocate and so I don't take anything at face value).
> 
> Despite your jocularity with others here regarding the seriousness of my posts and their intention I am really only trying to figure out why such a policy would be made if, as you and others have framed it, it is so fundamentally lacking... at least on the face of it.


We were told that it was due to cost saving. Minister MacKay was in Gander last month, and was about 3 blocks from where the SAR Communication Office was housed, but he refused to go there to see them and explain why their jobs were being sent to Halifax. The Communication Office was told that a stop at this site, regardless of how close it was to where the minister was at the time, was not "in the minister's timeline".


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> We were told that it was due to cost saving. Minister MacKay was in Gander last month, and was about 3 blocks from where the SAR Communication Office was housed, but he refused to go there to see them and explain why their jobs were being sent to Halifax. The Communication Office was told that a stop at this site, regardless of how close it was to where the minister was at the time, was not "in the minister's timeline".


Right, but if only the communication function has been moved away, how does this affect the safety of Newfoundlanders?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Right, but if only the communication function has been moved away, how does this affect the safety of Newfoundlanders?


With four helicopters moved out of the province, and now the communication center moving to NS as well, it will take longer for SAR to get to the site of an emergency. It is felt that to keep the center here will allow the staff to have the ability to react within a shorter response time. If the Halifax center is swamped with their own distress calls, the calls will be forwarded on to Trenton, ON. 

There is a Facebook page on this issue, and I found one posting interesting, since it was written by a SAR pilot. It read as follows:

"Timbury Wayne

I was one of the pilots on that mission (Nautical Legacy), I had spent the bulk of a 22yr career flying SAR in NL and we relied heavily on the local knowledge and expertise of the specialists at the St John's MRSC. The coast here is rife with "green islands", "Deer Islands" "Seal Coves" etc, these folks know the area, know the habits of the fisherman and where they may go and what they might do in the event of trouble. Many times, including this one, the intuition and local knowledge of the controller enabled the crew of the Legacy to remain in the 2 degree water for as short a time as possible. I don't know if you would get that kind of "extra" help from someone not from the area working in a centre in Halifax.

I am now recently retired from CF, but myself now rely on that sub centre as I routinely fly Rig Workers back a forth of St John's. I hope you win the fight.
Good Luck!
Wayne Timbury
Major (retired)"

St. John's Maritime Rescue centre to close - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> We were told that it was due to cost saving. Minister MacKay was in Gander last month, and was about 3 blocks from where the SAR Communication Office was housed, but he refused to go there to see them and explain why their jobs were being sent to Halifax. The Communication Office was told that a stop at this site, regardless of how close it was to where the minister was at the time, was not "in the minister's timeline".


Sorry Dr. G. but your response does not address my questions and concerns.... 

It may seem harsh to you to provide more substantial evidence but it is what I am required to do countless times every day 5 days a week... so if you don't mind could you please provide a 1st or 2nd party direct reference... and not just 3rr party anecdotal hearsay. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> With four helicopters moved out of the province, and now the communication center moving to NS as well, it will take longer for SAR to get to the site of an emergency. It is felt that to keep the center here will allow the staff to have the ability to react within a shorter response time. I*f the Halifax center is swamped with their own distress calls, the calls will be forwarded on to Trenton, ON. *


But I thought 89.999% of the calls received come from NFLD and Labrador? So how could they be "swamped" with calls coming locally? Please explain?


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Sorry Dr. G. but your response does not address my questions and concerns....
> 
> It may seem harsh to you to provide more substantial evidence but it is what I am required to do countless times every day 5 days a week... so if you don't mind could you please provide a 1st or 2nd party direct reference... and not just 3rr party anecdotal hearsay.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I'm checking through CBC archives. It was a big item in our local news.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> But I thought 89.999% of the calls received come from NFLD and Labrador? So how could they be "swamped" with calls coming locally? Please explain?


If they get all the NL calls, plus all the calls from their NS/PEI/NB region, and add the Quebec region, since they too lost their center, then the overflow goes to Trenton, ON.


----------



## MacDoc

The slime grows slicker - the Cons know no shame....



> * Van Loan’s defence of dirty tricks debases Tories and degrades democracy *
> 
> * bruce anderson Globe and Mail Update Posted on Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:52PM EST*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least once a year for the last 20 or more, as a pollster, I’ve been asked “Why are young people so detached from our political parties?” or “What can we do to reverse the decline in voting turnout, especially among young people?”
> Last May's election reminded us this problem is not going away on its own. Some days it seems like a pretty complex challenge. And then there are moments of great clarity, as there was in Ottawa this past week.
> *More related to this story*
> 
> 
> 
> With Cotler ‘alive, well and working,’ Tories confirm plot for his riding
> Who’s telling constituents there’s a by-election in Cotler's Montreal riding?
> For a while now, there’s been a dirty-trick rumour in circulation: that organized callers have been phoning Liberal MP Irwin Cotler’s constituents, leaving the false impression he is leaving politics and they would need a new MP soon.
> Eventually, Government House Leader Peter Van Loan admitted that this was being done on an organized basis by the Conservatives. A sad, cynical enough moment in Canadian politics. Then he took cynicism to a new, jaw dropping level.
> No mumbling the normal apologies about “overzealous workers, blah, blah, blah, won’t happen again, etc.” Instead, Canadians were told that this kind of grime should be considered vital free speech – and must be protected, not prevented, by our laws. Efforts to rein it in would have worse consequences than letting it continue. This was the sound of a politician who had left home without an ethical or moral compass that morning.
> That this episode risks disappearing under the waves of the next 50 news stories is not surprising. But the story deserves more oxygen, more time in the spotlight.
> This truly isn’t complicated. If our children tell lies about schoolmates, we punish them not shrug it off. When it happens on the Internet, we call it cyber bullying and bemoan how young people seem to have grown up without decent values. Conservative Christian groups presumably recognize this as something hard to square with the “Golden Rule.”
> 
> 
> How exactly does this kind of behaviour, and its subsequent defence, fit within a party that wants to be known as the champion of law and order? I’m not suggesting the  acts were illegal, only that it seemed the point of a law-and-order agenda was proclaiming a larger idea along the lines of “We conservatives get right and wrong.”
> And this is wrong. Not clever, not amusing, not evidence of a more sophisticated political machine that works all the angles while others are asleep at the switch. Just wrong on every level.
> 
> 
> That it might work is not an explanation of why it should be allowed – it's a great argument for why it shouldn’t. Mr. Van Loan’s position is the same as saying one shouldn’t outlaw lying because the next thing you know, someone will be trying to outlaw truth-telling. It’s insulting, it’s beneath this government, and I'm sure it is an embarrassment to many good people in the Conservative Party.
> When these things happen, as inevitably they do, how about we use a simple question or two to decide what to do about them. Would we let our children do this kind of thing, or tell them it’s wrong? Can we realistically expect idealistic young people to become part of political organizations that think this kind of behaviour is ethical?


Van Loan’s defence of dirty tricks debases Tories and degrades democracy - The Globe and Mail


----------



## eMacMan

Given the job the EC weather centre in NS does in forecasting Alberta weather, I would suggest Marc's concerns are well founded. 

Moving things further from where they need to be, will always have a bad effect on service.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc, would you please edit out the link to the Globe's advertisements?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> The slime grows slicker - the Cons know no shame....





> He said the “script” does not mention a by-election. However, if people ask why the party is phoning, callers say “there are rumours that Irwin Cotler may resign causing a by-election,” the Conservative official said.


THIS is what you're so  about?


----------



## groovetube

nothing to see here. Move along.

The furious waving of the hands will need to go into hyperdrive as these liars get really warmed up.


----------



## MacDoc

Very refreshing that 715 commenters wrote in by and larger castigating Harper et al........well deserved roasting too....

Van Loan’s defence of dirty tricks debases Tories and degrades democracy - The Globe and Mail

of course there are a few lap puppies in the bunch....no surprise there.....fearless leader can do no wrong.... XX)


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> The slime grows slicker - the Cons know no shame....
> 
> 
> 
> Van Loan’s defence of dirty tricks debases Tories and degrades democracy - The Globe and Mail


Agreed on this point by the tactics of the CPC, it stinks. 

One however must realize that the rank and file of the CPC and the vast majority of Tory MPs (probably even cabinet) had no idea this kind of thing is going on as they are not involved in the machinations of the party that make the decisions to do these kind of things. I know of a least a few Con MPs who dropped out of the out of riding 10% program altogether because of the 10%ers that were sent into Cotler's riding last time around.

There are a group at the top of the CPC party that need to be turfed.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Very refreshing that 715 commenters wrote in by and larger castigating Harper et al........well deserved roasting too....
> 
> Van Loan’s defence of dirty tricks debases Tories and degrades democracy - The Globe and Mail
> 
> of course there are a few lap puppies in the bunch....no surprise there.....fearless leader can do no wrong.... XX)


This is a party tactic not to be mistaken with a government tactic. Harper does not run the party he runs the government. The president and council of the party run the party and make these decisions. Did Harper know it was going on, probably but it was the party that made the choice to do this.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder, Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## eMacMan

Always nice to start the day with a good hearty laugh.:lmao::clap::clap:


CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder, Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Always nice to start the day with a good hearty laugh.:lmao::clap::clap:


Good one, CM.


----------



## screature

63.5% agree with Canada's direction, poll finds



> The percentage of people who think Canada is generally moving in the right direction has increased sharply in the last year, from 52% to 63.5%, according to a new poll.
> 
> The rise is the steepest in the five-year history of the Mood of Canada survey, conducted by Nanos Research for Policy Options magazine....


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> 63.5% agree with Canada's direction, poll finds


Nice to know the majority of Canadians think the Conservatives are doing a great job. Oddly enough, there are those here who will be dismayed at such news.


----------



## Sonal

That I think that Canada is generally moving in the right direction doesn't mean that I think the Conservatives are doing a great job.


----------



## groovetube

the whitewashing of the lies and mismanagement is astounding.

Just because 63% like the 'direction' Canada is going, doesn't erase these serious misdeeds, and the mere fact that -someone-, who maintains how partisan others are, would drop this in the middle of these misdeeds being pointed out, is quite telling indeed.


----------



## eMacMan

Let's see.

Harpo wants to participate in upcoming US led occupations of into Iran, Syria and Pakistan. At great expense to taxpayers.

Harpo harps on Fiscal responsibility but his spending is completely out of control.


Not the direction I like to see Canada heading.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Nice to know the majority of Canadians think the Conservatives are doing a great job. Oddly enough, there are those here who will be dismayed at such news.


The poll does not say that at all SINC and I'm surprised that someone who was a journalist would report it as such. As it turns out, according to the small poll, the percentage of people who think the government is doing a good job is roughly equivalent to the percentage of Canadians who voted for Harper's party.

Of course the National Post itself, with a long history of shoddy journalism, is doing pretty biased reporting on this also, trumpeting the 63.5% but not mentioning the other aspects of the poll or providing a link for those who would like to know more.


----------



## groovetube

I think the conservatives are slowly finding out that hollering from the rooftops while wanting power that you will be honest, open and accountable, actually means you might actually have to be honest open and accountable in government.

Though it seems having a majority erases this requirement.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> ...wants to participate in upcoming US led occupations of into Iran, Syria and Pakistan. At great expense to taxpayers.


Really? I haven't even seen Obama announce this.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The poll does not say that at all SINC and I'm surprised that someone who was a journalist would report it as such. As it turns out, according to the small poll, the percentage of people who think the government is doing a good job is roughly equivalent to the percentage of Canadians who voted for Harper's party.


I reported on nothing. It's a shame you cannot determine the difference between reporting and passing an opinion on something already reported, ie: the poll. 



GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Of course the National Post itself, with a long history of shoddy journalism, is doing pretty biased reporting on this also, trumpeting the 63.5% but not mentioning the other aspects of the poll or providing a link for those who would like to know more.


Perhaps you missed this part, so I will show you once again *the poll had nothing to do with the National Post*:



> The rise is the steepest in the five-year history of the Mood of Canada survey, conducted by Nanos Research for Policy Options magazine.


Here is a link to the poll itself:

http://www.irpp.org/events/archive/20101203/nanos.pdf

And as for the Conservatives, they faired pretty well as seen here:


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The poll does not say that at all SINC and I'm surprised that someone who was a journalist would report it as such. As it turns out, according to the small poll, the percentage of people who think the government is doing a good job is roughly equivalent to the percentage of Canadians who voted for Harper's party.
> 
> Of course the National Post itself, with a long history of shoddy journalism, is doing pretty biased reporting on this also, trumpeting the 63.5% but not mentioning the other aspects of the poll or providing a link for those who would like to know more.


Whatever you think of the NP the poll was conducted by Nanos Research probably the best, most respected and certainly historically the most accurate of all Canadian polling companies. 



> NATIONAL DIRECTION
> 
> QUESTION: Would you say that Canada as a country is moving in the right direction or the wrong direction?


There was no politically partisan inclination in the question one way or the other. SINC chooses to interpret this poll as being favourable to the government which may or may not be the case, but there is nothing about the poll itself that makes it any more or less valid than other polls conducted by Nanos or other major polling companies. 

Your willingness to discredit the poll based on nothing other than not liking the NP and the government is simply indicative of you being part of 36.5% of Canadians who disagree.


----------



## i-rui

How is the National Post coming up with 63.5%?



> The percentage of people who think Canada is generally moving in the right direction has increased sharply in the last year, from 52% to 63.5%, according to a new poll.


When i look at the linked poll it seems that in 2010-11 that from the 1000 or so canadians polled it seems that 52.2% feel the country is heading in the right direction, and that amount has sharply *decreased* since last year - which is pretty much the opposite of what the Post is saying (unless we're talking about 2 different polls).

EDIT - i'm guessing the linked poll is from last year, and probably not current.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> I reported on nothing. It's a shame you cannot determine the difference between reporting and passing an opinion on something already reported, ie: the poll.
> 
> Perhaps you missed this part, so I will show you once again *the poll had nothing to do with the National Post*:
> 
> Here is a link to the poll itself:
> 
> http://www.irpp.org/events/archive/20101203/nanos.pdf
> 
> And as for the Conservatives, they faired pretty well as seen here:





i-rui said:


> How is the National Post coming up with 63.5%?
> 
> 
> 
> When i look at the linked poll it seems that in 2010-11 that from the 1000 or so canadians polled it seems that 52.2% feel the country is heading in the right direction, and that amount has sharply *decreased* since last year - which is pretty much the opposite of what the Post is saying (unless we're talking about 2 different polls).
> 
> EDIT - i'm guessing the linked poll is from last year, and probably not current.


Actually the poll SINC linked to is last year's poll not this year's.

Here is a link to the story from the London Free Press if this will make some people here feel better about the veracity of the findings.

Canadians' political mood getting brighter: Poll


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> I reported on nothing. It's a shame you cannot determine the difference between reporting and passing an opinion on something already reported, ie: the poll. rolleyes


Roll your eyes all you want SINC, what you said was: *"Nice to know the majority of Canadians think the Conservatives are doing a great job."*

The slanted article in the NP didn't say that nor did the poll. An opinion isn't the same thing as twisting and misrepresenting facts, which as a former journalist you should know.



SINC said:


> Perhaps you missed this part, so I will show you once again *the poll had nothing to do with the National Post*:


No SINC, I didn't miss that at all, I'm fully aware that the National Post story you linked to was reporting on the Nanos poll, -- albeit in a way that picks out part of the results to convey a particular conclusion, such as the one you promoted.



SINC said:


> Here is a link to the poll itself:
> http://www.irpp.org/events/archive/20101203/nanos.pdf


You linked to the wrong poll. Since the NP story didn't provide a link it's difficult to find.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Whatever you think of the NP the poll was conducted by Nanos Research probably the best, most respected and certainly historically the most accurate of all Canadian polling companies.
> 
> There was no politically partisan inclination in the question one way or the other. SINC chooses to interpret this poll as being favourable to the government which may or may not be the case, but there is nothing about the poll itself that makes it any more or less valid than other polls conducted by Nanos or other major polling companies.
> 
> Your willingness to discredit the poll based on nothing other than not liking the NP and the government is simply indicative of you being part of 36.5% of Canadians who disagree.


Where did I discredit the poll or the pollster, other than to mention that it was a small poll? Can you please point that out.

I did say that the NP reporting on the poll was slanted, in that they focused on the part of the results that synched with their political agenda and barely mentioned the rest, nor did they provide any link for those who might want to find out more about it.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Roll your eyes all you want SINC, what you said was: *"Nice to know the majority of Canadians think the Conservatives are doing a great job."*
> 
> The slanted article in the NP didn't say that nor did the poll. An opinion isn't the same thing as twisting and misrepresenting facts, which as a former journalist you should know.


That's exactly what I wrote _and is still my opinion_ after reading the right poll. Mea culpa on my link, thanks screature.

And further it's also nice to know this _and that too is my opinion_:



> Canadians' feelings about Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government have also improved, with 40.2% of Canadians rating the government's performance as "good" or "very good," up 10 points from last year, while 24.3% said the government's performance was "poor" or "very poor," four points down from 2010.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> That's exactly what I wrote _and is still my opinion_ after reading the right poll. Mea culpa on my link, thanks screature.
> 
> And further it's also nice to know this _and that too is my opinion_:


So your clear misrepresenting of the facts is now an opinion? What sort of logic is that? The poll did not indicate in any way that "the majority of Canadians think the Conservatives are doing a great job".

In the other section of the poll that the NP chose to gloss over the poll showed that a total of 40% of Canadians thought that the Cons were doing either a very good or good job. That does not equal a majority of those polled or Canadians.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Where did I discredit the poll or the pollster, other than to mention that it was a small poll? Can you please point that out.
> 
> *I did say that the NP reporting on the poll was slanted, in that they focused on the part of the results that synched with their political agenda and barely mentioned the rest, nor did they provide any link for those who might want to find out more about it.*


You answered your your own question.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> You answered your your own question.


You're making no sense, screature. Again, where does that discredit the Nanos poll or the polling firm, as you charge? I disagree with the NP reporting on the poll, I didn't say anything about the veracity of the poll.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> You linked to the wrong poll. Since the NP story didn't provide a link it's difficult to find.


Actually it is really easy to find.

A CANADIAN SPRING: MORE PEOPLE SEE COUNTRY MOVING IN RIGHT DIRECTION; CANADIANS SEE ITS REPUTATION MUCH HIGHER IN THE WORLD
Institute for Research on Public Policy Website


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> You're making no sense, screature. Again, where does that discredit the Nanos poll or the polling firm, as you charge? I disagree with the NP reporting on the poll, I didn't say anything about the veracity of the poll.


Fair enough, it came across that way to me by your tone, but you are correct you didn't discredit Nanos but it did seem your tone was discrediting the findings.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Fair enough, it came across that way to me by your tone, but you are correct you didn't discredit Nanos but it did seem your tone was discrediting the findings.


Nope, I have no reason to believe Nanos did anything other than attempt to create a scientific sample. My tone was entirely directed at the National Post in the way they reported on the poll's findings.

Thanks for linking to the poll. When I looked earlier all I found was the same old poll that SINC linked to. I went to the Nanos site and blog and couldn't see it there. I didn't spend a ton of time looking for it though.

Clearly Question 1 states how many people think the Cons are doing a "very good" job. 13% -- with an additional 26% answering "good" -- equalling roughly the percentage of popular vote the Cons received in the last election.

Hardly earth-shattering news or any indication that the majority of Canadians think the Cons are doing a "great" job.


----------



## groovetube

well now that there has been sabre rattling and jumping up and down proudly asserting the gloriousness of our leader with carefully reported poll in a conservative publication, we've all but forgotten about the lying, and misuse of tax payers money by these oh so great, conservatives.

Fantastic!

It is rather interesting that while pointing out all these misdeeds by the conservatives, the best that conservative supporters can muster is, some cherry picked poll that says we're headed in the right direction.

Yeah. That's a real good excuse isn't it.


----------



## SINC

The intellectual comments in the thread are most interesting.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> The intellectual comments in the thread are most interesting.


There's been some of those?


----------



## groovetube

apparently!


----------



## groovetube

Cotler: Tories using public purse to undermine me | CTV News

more wasting of our taxpayers money for skulduggery. At what point, do people who supported them say, maybe a majority wasn't... such a good idea.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Cotler: Tories using public purse to undermine me | CTV News
> 
> more wasting of our taxpayers money for skulduggery. At what point, do people who supported them say, maybe a majority wasn't... such a good idea.


Nice try, but no cigar. From the story:



> "To call that campaigning, that's a real stretch, again it's not for me to run to the aid of Saulie Zajdel," Trent said.
> 
> "I think it's a bit, really, (of) a tempest in a teapot."
> 
> Town of Mount Royal Mayor Philippe Roy, who also met with Zajdel privately, said the recently hired government staffer discussed Heritage Canada programs available for municipalities.
> 
> "It's certainly odd when a civil servant goes to meet elected officials in a context like this, but he only came to present the different Heritage Canada programs to us," said Roy, who was the only mayor present at the meeting from Cotler's riding.
> 
> *"It was limited to (the programs) -- he didn't go further than that in playing the role of an MP."*


Another non issue.


----------



## groovetube

really? I'm a little surprised that for someone who has worked in jounalism, that you would have missed this.... (selective hearing perhaps?)



> Trent, who has served for 12 years as mayor and another six years on council, couldn't recall such a presentation by a federal civil servant.
> 
> He said he found Zajdel's request to meet the mayors "strange."
> 
> "*It's not every day that you have somebody from the government coming and saying, 'Here, you want money?' " said Trent*, who added that Zajdel also requested a meeting with the cities' director generals.
> 
> "I must admit, as president, that I was a little confused as to what his role was."
> 
> *Trent added that he was happy to learn about some of the programs, which include funds for arts, cultural spaces and museums.*
> 
> He didn't think Zajdel acted inappropriately and said the government staffer did not raise partisan politics.
> 
> "To call that campaigning, that's a real stretch, again it's not for me to run to the aid of Saulie Zajdel," Trent said.
> 
> *"I think it's a bit, really, (of) a tempest in a teapot."*


yeah. Money sure makes people happy! 

Keep in mind this, is not the only such case being found....

nothing to see here, wink wink nudge nudge. Yeah right.

Looks like a little backroom bribery with taxpayers money.


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, more intellect. Yup. Hearing? Really? On a forum where one types?

Oh yeah, you are the guy who favours 'screeching' online too.


----------



## groovetube

SINC. You shot back that I somehow missed part of the story. The truth is, you also, conveniently left out an important part of the story as well. 

I think the rest of the story helps paint a very troubling picture. The conservatives have taken patronage to a new level, in spite of loudly denouncing it when the liberals did it, and while telling Canadians they want to start belt tightening.

While they're so concerned about where 17 million a year is going (despite them actually already knowing but shhh...) we see them engaging in this kind of shadowing patronage stuff (let's not forget the low blow crap of spreading false rumours of the montreal riding's MP retiring), Tony Clement spewing 50 million bucks with little or no paper trail, (the list goes on...), and you expect me to believe there's nothing to see here?

I'm just not that gullible. I wasn't that gullible when the liberals engaged in questionable activity, so don't expect me, to be with these liars in office.


----------



## Macfury

Scathing! Better retreat now, SINC!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Scathing! Better retreat now, SINC!


Yeah, you're right, that got me MF, I'm done, no contest.


----------



## groovetube

Scathing? You bet.

Just try, to address the subject matter. I know macfury is incapable of it, but you, I'm sure you can. Hey you're the one that shot back I missed part of the article, I filled in the part you left out too.

Care to address it?


----------



## groovetube

here's an interesting blogger talking about this issue and showing that this montreal riding, isn't the only case of this happening.

Shadowy Con games - Dawg's Blawg (Blog)


----------



## SINC

That's pretty much dog poop to me.


----------



## groovetube

Well if you're going to complain about intellect in this thread, I'd suggest maybe something a bit better in terms of responses.

Just a thought.


----------



## jimbotelecom

.


----------



## Macfury

The above represents such an infantile view of politics it's hard to know where to begin. As much as I don't favour government stimulus programs, the federal government did create tens of thousands of jobs. Next?


----------



## groovetube

he was actually talking about the corporate tax cuts that were supposed to create jobs (and hasn't), not the government stimulus programs and the jobs they're supposed to create. Nice try.

Yeah Canadians, you'll have to wait for your tax cuts until we balance the budget (ha ha ha ha ha), but yeah first we've got some goodies for our friends. Hook, line, and sinker. 

nothing to see here.


----------



## groovetube

Raise Taxes on Rich to Reward True Job Creators: Nick Hanauer - Bloomberg

with sincere apologies that this article may be a fews days old.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Raise Taxes on Rich to Reward True Job Creators: Nick Hanauer - Bloomberg
> 
> with sincere apologies that this article may be a fews days old.


This is utter nonsense. Have you not heard of "trickle down economics" or "Reaganomics"??? This is where the rich got richer, and some of their wealth "trickled down" to create thousands upon thousands of jobs. Granted, many of these jobs were at minimum wage, but one could not expect too much of the wealth generated by the already wealthy to pour down ............ a trickle is fine. 

So I say, tax the wealthy even less, create more jobs and watch the economy grow. The minimum wage should be cut in half for ALL workers. For those who are on social assistance, I say fire unionized workers and replace them with "work for welfare" people. No work means no public assistances. As well, bring about the Newt Gingrich plan with doing away with many child labor laws. For those who complain, establish "re-education camps", built by those people placed in these camps, thus saving even more money. Watch any economy grow under these conditions. It is Social Darwinism at its finest.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

> And only consumers can set in motion a virtuous cycle that allows companies to survive and thrive and business owners to hire. An ordinary middle-class consumer is far more of a job creator than I ever have been or ever will be.


Middle-class consumers are being taxed to death. So begin by relieving them of that burden and they will spend, spend, spend--apparently.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Middle-class consumers are being taxed to death. So begin by relieving them of that burden and they will spend, spend, spend--apparently.


I agree that the taxes on the middle class are on the high side. However, to balance the budget, if we lower taxes on the middle class, we must raise them somewhere else. I recognize that you (and others, including myself) would argue that we can also cut government spending, and that is a valid point but the argument becomes what to cut and how much (personally, I would cut military spending, and end corporate welfare, which would put us in a position of a massive economic surplus, allowing significant tax cuts for everyone). Given that the ultra wealthy wouldn't be significantly inconvenienced by even a major tax hike, there seems no ethical reason not to require those who benefit most greatly from the structure of our society to pay proportionately more for it.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> This is utter nonsense. Have you not heard of "trickle down economics" or "Reaganomics"??? This is where the rich got richer, and some of their wealth "trickled down" to create thousands upon thousands of jobs. Granted, many of these jobs were at minimum wage, but one could not expect too much of the wealth generated by the already wealthy to pour down ............ a trickle is fine.
> 
> So I say, tax the wealthy even less, create more jobs and watch the economy grow. The minimum wage should be cut in half for ALL workers. For those who are on social assistance, I say fire unionized workers and replace them with "work for welfare" people. No work means no public assistances. As well, bring about the Newt Gingrich plan with doing away with many child labor laws. For those who complain, establish "re-education camps", built by those people placed in these camps, thus saving even more money. Watch any economy grow under these conditions. It is Social Darwinism at its finest.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


:clap:


----------



## groovetube

‘Desperate’ Tories fire back at MacKay’s critics with Rae’s 1992 chopper ride - The Globe and Mail

When in doubt, rather than address the issue at hand, just say the liberals did it too.

So much for change eh?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Given that the ultra wealthy wouldn't be significantly inconvenienced by even a major tax hike, there seems no ethical reason not to require those who benefit most greatly from the structure of our society to pay proportionately more for it.



I still see no reason for the "ultra-wealthy" to be taxed at a higher rate than anyone else. They don't consume a greater percentage of the "structure of our society"--they have just been more successful. I see no ethical reason to make any one person pay any greater share of their income than anyone else. 

However, given the math, any effort to institute massive tax hikes on "the rich" would result in a rather puny yield. It's all optics.


----------



## i-rui

a couple of days old, but i don't think this has been posted in this or the 'occupy wall street' thread :

Canada’s wage gap at record high: OECD - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> :clap:


Well, gt, if China is able to use slave labor, and other countries are able to use children to do manual labor, it's time that Canada and the US get into the 21st century with some creative labor practices. Ban unions, go back to the 6 day work week, do away with the 8 hour work day, end labor safety laws, do away with environmental protection laws, do away with capital gains taxes and taxes on dividends, and get the federal and provincial/state governments out of the corporate boardroom of Canada and the US with their countless regulations that protect workers and consumers alike. 

I like the BP model of corporate responsibility -- "Accidents will happen, and you can't make scrambled eggs without breaking some eggs."

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I still see no reason for the "ultra-wealthy" to be taxed at a higher rate than anyone else. They don't consume a greater percentage of the "structure of our society"--they have just been more successful. I see no ethical reason to make any one person pay any greater share of their income than anyone else.
> 
> However, given the math, any effort to institute massive tax hikes on "the rich" would result in a rather puny yield. It's all optics.


I strongly agree, Macfury. As the old saying goes, "To those who much is given and much is earned, much must be done to protect these gains." 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

wealthy corporations should be taxed more simply because their incredible growing wealth has been not only financed by the Canadian taxpayer, but their wealth comes -because- of the Canadian taxpayer.

The mewling I see about how we have a choice flies in the face of the obvious clout these huge corporations have just starting with advertising.

There's something terribly wrong when the majority of wealth doesn't account for the majority of taxes.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> wealthy corporations should be taxed more simply because their incredible growing wealth has been not only financed by the Canadian taxpayer, but their wealth comes -because- of the Canadian taxpayer.
> 
> The mewling I see about how we have a choice flies in the face of the obvious clout these huge corporations have just starting with advertising.
> 
> There's something terribly wrong when the majority of wealth doesn't account for the majority of taxes.


However, from their extreme wealth will come our jobs and the well-being of our country. Name one great country that did not have an uber-wealthy class??? If you want Canada to be great then you must realize that this greatness comes at a price (i.e., your greater tax burden for their greater wealth). Anything less is un-Canadian and illogical. 

The business of Canada is Big Business.


----------



## Macfury

I am enjoying this little display of victim mentality. Fortune's poor fools, buffeted by the big corporations who are sucking on the miserable teat of the Canadian taxpayer. Keep it up for the rest of the afternoon, won't you?


----------



## groovetube

ah now we've returned to the victim diatribe. I'm not sure why, (though I can guess easily enough...) you would just boil it down to people playing 'victim'. Were conservatives 'victims' of the liberals when they whined about the grave injustices? Should they have juststayed silent and sucked it up? No one should have anything to say about any of it, for fear that macfury will call them 'victims'?? Should we now simply shout VICTIM! at anyone who dares suggest there is an imbalance in taxation, or a total raping of the public purse by one group unfairly?

It seems this is your suggestion isn't it.


----------



## Macfury

"We're poor little lambs
who have lost our way,
Baa Baa Baa."


----------



## groovetube

I think we can take that, as a firm yes. Thanks.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I still see no reason for the "ultra-wealthy" to be taxed at a higher rate than anyone else. They don't consume a greater percentage of the "structure of our society"--they have just been more successful.


Um... wanna run that by me again? Isn't it obvious that the wealthy *do* consume a greater percentage of the "structure of society" (i.e. the labour of workers, the organization of collectives like corporations and the infrastructure that supports them), not to mention the greater consumption of the commons (environment) by virtue of their money-making activities. I suppose you could argue that software moguls like Bill Gates aren't responsible for as much environmental damage as folks like the Koch brothers, but you can't claim that Microsoft's activities aren't driven by (i.e. consumptive of) the efforts of many other people.

Without the infrastructure of complex western society corporations like Microsoft couldn't exist. Therefore the people at the top of the economic food chain are benefiting disproportionately from the structure of society. Which is fine; good for them. But they should also contribute disproportionately to it's maintenance in the form of taxes. Not surprisingly, many of them are happy to do so (e.g. Warren Buffet's "Tax Me More" etc.). Unfortunately, this flies in the face of the right wing ideology of "Tax Breaks for the Rich" so there is resistance among those who are more concerned with having a truly Free Market than having a sustainable and fair society.


----------



## groovetube

I guess we'll see if that post garners more than a children's song.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Um... wanna run that by me again? Isn't it obvious that the wealthy *do* consume a greater percentage of the "structure of society" (i.e. the labour of workers, the organization of collectives like corporations and the infrastructure that supports them), not to mention the greater consumption of the commons (environment) by virtue of their money-making activities. I suppose you could argue that software moguls like Bill Gates aren't responsible for as much environmental damage as folks like the Koch brothers, but you can't claim that Microsoft's activities aren't driven by (i.e. consumptive of) the efforts of many other people.
> 
> Without the infrastructure of complex western society corporations like Microsoft couldn't exist. Therefore the people at the top of the economic food chain are benefiting disproportionately from the structure of society. Which is fine; good for them. But they should also contribute disproportionately to it's maintenance in the form of taxes. Not surprisingly, many of them are happy to do so (e.g. Warren Buffet's "Tax Me More" etc.). Unfortunately, this flies in the face of the right wing ideology of "Tax Breaks for the Rich" so there is resistance among those who are more concerned with having a truly Free Market than having a sustainable and fair society.



Western democracy has monopolized infrastructure not because it would not have been built otherwise, but because the government wanted to monopolize it. The rich are already paying a disproportianately high percentage of their incomes in tax. 

How much income do you think the government monopoly on infrastructure entitles them to, keeping in mind they already pay property taxes, development fees, water bills, hydro bills, gasoline taxes, etc.?


----------



## groovetube

The rich are NOT paying a disproportionate amount of tax.

This has already been amply covered. You may be thinking about the upper middle class who do pay higher taxes.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Western democracy has monopolized infrastructure not because it would not have been built otherwise, but because the government wanted to monopolize it.


This is among the most obvious illustrations of your complete disconnect with reality that you have ever posted. There is no way private interests would've invested in developing roads, power infrastructure, communications infrastructure, hospitals, schools, etc. for small rural communities or other unprofitable contexts. Nor should they be expected to do so; the private sector is driven by profit, not what's good for society.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> This is among the most obvious illustrations of your complete disconnect with reality that you have ever posted. There is no way private interests would've invested in developing roads, power infrastructure, communications infrastructure, hospitals, schools, etc. for small rural communities or other unprofitable contexts. Nor should they be expected to do so; the private sector is driven by profit, not what's good for society.


That's right. We wouldn't be subsidizing sub-optimal towns that are relying on taxpayers to remain where they are.


----------



## groovetube

it's really anyone's guess how that switcharoo occurred.


----------



## BigDL

*MacKay may sue over helicopter ride criticism*

Is a slapp suit the line of defence for the indefensible? Ironic for the defence minister isn't it?



CBCNews said:


> Defence Minister Peter MacKay is considering legal action against MPs who suggested he lied about a ride he took aboard a search-and-rescue helicopter.


MacKay considers slapp suit


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Is a slapp suit the line of defence for the indefensible? Ironic for the defence minister isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> MacKay considers slapp suit


Good for MacKay. It's about time that the average person realize that with great power and responsbilities come great perks. I hope he wins his lawsuit so that he will come back to NL to go fishing and hunting in style. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Last year, 4,000 households with incomes over a million dollars owed no federal income tax whatsoever, according to Tax Policy Center estimates." 

"Billionaires with 1% tax rates". 

Sadly, now even Pres. Obama is trying to stick it to the uber-wealthy. They just can't catch a break since Bush left office. I blame it partly on Warren Buffett, since he started this fuss in the first place. 

Hopefully, our Prime Minister will NOT have similar sights on the wealth of our uber-wealthy Canadians. We shall see.

Obama: Billionaires and millionaires should pay more taxes - Dec. 7, 2011


----------



## Macfury

Together, we can defeat Obama in 2012!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Together, we can defeat Obama in 2012!


Amen, Brother Macfury. Either the New Newt, Ron Paul ................. or even Michelle Bachman with Donald Trump as her VP. Now, that would be a ticket that would not hurt those with money. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Amen, Brother Macfury. Either the New Newt, Ron Paul ................. or even Michelle Bachman with Donald Trump as her VP. Now, that would be a ticket that would not hurt those with money. We shall see.


Every Man a King, Dr. G!


----------



## i-rui

Dr.G. said:


> Good for MacKay. It's about time that the average person realize that with great power and responsbilities come great perks. I hope he wins his lawsuit so that he will come back to NL to go fishing and hunting in style. We shall see.


i can't believe that us lowly canadians would ever question that such an important person shouldn't be taxied about our vast country by our SAR helicopters.

in fact, why should MacKay even be inconvenienced at all? I say from now on we have our SAR fleet airlift the fish *TO HIM*. Let him fish in comfort by his pool if he feels like it. He's so much better than some loser fishermen in need off the coast of this country.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "Last year, 4,000 households with incomes over a million dollars owed no federal income tax whatsoever, according to Tax Policy Center estimates."
> 
> "Billionaires with 1% tax rates".
> 
> Sadly, now even Pres. Obama is trying to stick it to the uber-wealthy. They just can't catch a break since Bush left office. I blame it partly on Warren Buffett, since he started this fuss in the first place.
> 
> Hopefully, our Prime Minister will NOT have similar sights on the wealth of our uber-wealthy Canadians. We shall see.
> 
> Obama: Billionaires and millionaires should pay more taxes - Dec. 7, 2011


How DARE Obama even hint at such a thing. Did he not listen to macfury?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i can't believe that us lowly canadians would ever question that such an important person shouldn't be taxied about our vast country by our SAR helicopters.
> 
> in fact, why should MacKay even be inconvenienced at all? I say from now on we have our SAR fleet airlift the fish *TO HIM*. Let him fish in comfort by his pool if he feels like it. He's so much better than some loser fishermen in need off the coast of this country.


I hear that McKay fished the Grand Banks to their limit in just a couple of days.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Every Man a King, Dr. G!


Ah yes, good old Huey P. Long and his ""Every Man a King (But No One Wears a Crown)" speech. Problem is he wanted to take from the rich of LA and give to the poor with his "Share our Wealth" plan. Saw himself a modern day Robin Hood ............ all the while he and his cohorts got wealthy.


The key planks of the Share Our Wealth platform included:
1.No person would be allowed to accumulate a personal net worth of more than 300 times the average family fortune, which would limit personal assets to between $5 million and $8 million. A graduated capital levy tax would be assessed on all persons with a net worth exceeding $1 million.
2.Annual incomes would be limited to $1 million and inheritances would be capped at $5 million.
3.Every family was to be furnished with a homestead allowance of not less than one-third the average family wealth of the country. Every family was to be guaranteed an annual family income of at least $2,000 to $2,500, or not less than one-third of the average annual family income in the United States. Yearly income, however, cannot exceed more than 300 times the size of the average family income.
4.An old-age pension would be made available for all persons over 60.
5.To balance agricultural production, the government would preserve/store surplus goods, abolishing the practice of destroying surplus food and other necessities due to lack of purchasing power.
6.Veterans would be paid what they were owed (a pension and healthcare benefits).
7.Free education and training for all students to have equal opportunities in all schools, colleges, universities, and other institutions for training in the professions and vocations of life.
8.The raising of revenue and taxes for the support of this program was to come from the reduction of swollen fortunes from the top, as well as for the support of public works to give employment whenever there may be any slackening necessary in private enterprise.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> i can't believe that us lowly canadians would ever question that such an important person shouldn't be taxied about our vast country by our SAR helicopters.
> 
> in fact, why should MacKay even be inconvenienced at all? I say from now on we have our SAR fleet airlift the fish *TO HIM*. Let him fish in comfort by his pool if he feels like it. He's so much better than some loser fishermen in need off the coast of this country.


What is the sport of having a SAR helicopter bringing the actual fish to him??? They did that with George H. Bush in Labrador. Of course, the Dick Cheney "hunting plan" is much easier. The animals are enclosed in a huge field with chain link fencing. The hunters are broght to where the animals actually are located and then the hunters "do their thing". Cheney, before he shot his friend in the face, actually cornered a deer in the corner of this fence and called out "gotcha" before he shot the deer. Serveed the deer right for being stupid enough to go into a corner.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> How DARE Obama even hint at such a thing. Did he not listen to macfury?


Sadly, Pres. Obama has been listening to the likes of Warren Buffett, the ""Oracle of Omaha" rather than our own "Oracle of Toronto Proper". Well, he won't be president for long.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I hear that McKay fished the Grand Banks to their limit in just a couple of days.


That would be a violation of the Canadian treaty with NAFO (North Atlantic Fishing Organization) which allows European fishers to harvest the last of the Grand Bank fish stocks as fishers in the Atlantic provinces are forbidden to fish in those zones.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Is a slapp suit the line of defence for the indefensible? Ironic for the defence minister isn't it?
> 
> MacKay considers slapp suit


Interesting that there is no link to a source by the CBC as to such a speculation regarding a law suit... 

Unless the statements were made outside of the House by Opposition MPs that MacKay was lying they are protected by Parliamentary privilege... if the statements were made in the House they would have been ruled out of order by the Speaker as it goes against the rules of Parliament to say that another MP has lied.

So either Opposition MPs have said outside of the House that MacKay lied in which case they are subject to slander laws or the CBC report which provides no quote or source to support the claim is baseless and is pure BS... you decide...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Interesting that there is no link to a source by the CBC as to such a speculation regarding a law suit...
> 
> Unless the statements were made outside of the House by Opposition MPs that MacKay was lying they are protected by Parliamentary privileged... if the statements were made in the House they would have been ruled out of order by the Speaker as it goes against the rules of Parliament to say that another MP has lied.
> 
> So either Opposition MPs have said outside of the House that MacKay lied in which case they are subject to slander laws or the CBC report which provides no quote or source to support the claim is baseless and is pure BS... you decide...


aint't that the truth. Nothing's changed.

oh. MacKay threatens to sue MPs who questioned veracity of chopper tale - The Globe and Mail



> “Minister MacKay has had his character and personal reputation attacked,” spokesman Jay Paxton said. “Minister MacKay is looking into legal options against those who have attacked his integrity.”


There's the source.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Together, we can defeat Obama in 2012!


Now Pres. Obama is trying to be another Teddy Roosevelt. It's bad enough that Pres. Obama has been trying to implement FDR-like New Deal policies, but now he is trying to call upon the spirit of TR to help his upcoming campaign.

In his "New Nationalism" speech, TR backed policies that became the basis of his 1912 campaign, including the minimum wage, the eight-hour workday, women's suffrage and the federal income tax. He supported early campaign finance laws, lobbyist registration and the creation of a federal securities commission.

Most of all, TR took aim at "the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics." This remains a relevant concern in an age of multibillion-dollar Wall Street bailouts when Wall Street investment firms and banks need all the help they can get to just stay afloat.

Where is the spirit of Ronald Reagan when we need him?????

Maybe if a truly conservative Republican is elected president, he/she might roll back the 
minimum wage, end the eight-hour workday, abolish women's suffrage, end the federal income tax, change campaign finance laws, end lobbyist registration, dismantle the creation of a federal securities commission, end the environment protection laws, close the Dept. of Education, and do what Sen. Joe McCarthy was unable to do -- root out the "red influence" within the various departments of the federal government. We shall see.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> aint't that the truth. Nothing's changed.
> 
> oh. MacKay threatens to sue MPs who questioned veracity of chopper tale - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> There's the source.


GT Don'tcha just hate it when the facts get in the way of misdirection. Slowing that shiny ball isn't fair, isn't fair at all. Shame!


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> GT Don'tcha just hate it when the facts get in the way of misdirection. Slowing that shiny ball isn't fair, isn't fair at all. Shame!


well I've reduced at least two of them to blithering in tongues.

Could you imagine actually addressing posts? Furious hand waving is about all they can muster.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> That's right. We wouldn't be subsidizing sub-optimal towns that are relying on taxpayers to remain where they are.


Ah yes. Wouldn't it be nice if we all lived in Toronto.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Ah yes. Wouldn't it be nice if we all lived in Toronto.


I love the way you randomly switch back and forth with demanding that anyone who emits some carbon dioxide needs to pay for it themselves--USER PAYS! When it comes to propping up some town that has no economic or strategic reason to continue existing--EVERYBODY PAYS!

Lovely logic.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> GT Don'tcha just hate it when the facts get in the way of misdirection. Slowing that shiny ball isn't fair, isn't fair at all. Shame!


Different story. More *factual* story.The G&M did a decent job however the quote from the spokesperson said nothing about suing they said "looking into legal options". The G&M also said exactly what I pointed out and said what the CBC report didn't say regarding Parliamentary privileged vs. if something had been said out the house...

I provided the *facts* that the CBC didn't and the G&M did (except for the all important quote or statement which was the reason for my criticism of the CBC story you posted in the first place) so you can stick your shiny ball where it won't be so shiny.


----------



## groovetube

and THATS why you're the smarty pants in this town!!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I love the way you randomly switch back and forth with demanding that anyone who emits some carbon dioxide needs to pay for it themselves--USER PAYS! When it comes to propping up some town that has no economic or strategic reason to continue existing--EVERYBODY PAYS!
> 
> Lovely logic.


speaking of lovely logic, I'd be really interested in how these two things really even are related.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tracking measures will tell Ottawa who's coming, who's going and where*


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-coming-whos-going-and-where/article2264063/
> 
> *Tracking measures will tell Ottawa who's coming, who's going and where*


And...?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> And...?


He likes it because it is moving closer to the Cuban system.


----------



## BigDL

Some cherish freedom and respect those who died and were maimed fighting for it...and others couldn't give a rats a$$, I should imagine.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Some cherish freedom and respect those who died and were maimed fighting for it...and others couldn't give a rats a$$, I should imagine.


How is one's freedom being limited or restricted in any way?


----------



## eMacMan

An agreement that allows US military into Canadian territory to arrest Canadians (or any one else) is indeed an abridgment of freedom and Canadian Sovereignty. Especially as the US can then detain the victims indefinitely with only an accusation that the detained individuals are terrorists. No trial, no proof just an accusation.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *An agreement that allows US military into Canadian territory to arrest Canadians *(or any one else) is indeed an abridgment of freedom and Canadian Sovereignty. Especially as the US can then detain the victims indefinitely with only an accusation that the detained individuals are terrorists. No trial, no proof just an accusation.


And where are you getting this from?


----------



## groovetube

It's been reported on every news source I've seen.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan, from the coverage I have seen, U.S. police will be allowed to operate on Canadian soil armed, and participate in investigations - but I have not seen any reportage indicating they will have the power of arrest...

The Council of Canadians outlines other concerns, however...

[07-Dec-11] Privacy, civil liberties advocates available for comment on Canada-U.S. perimeter agreement; issue statement of principles

(Canadians.org)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> eMacMan, from the coverage I have seen, U.S. police will be allowed to operate on Canadian soil armed, and participate in investigations - but I have not seen any reportage indicating they will have the power of arrest...
> 
> The Council of Canadians outlines other concerns, however...
> 
> [07-Dec-11] Privacy, civil liberties advocates available for comment on Canada-U.S. perimeter agreement; issue statement of principles
> 
> (Canadians.org)


The military arrests are covered under the new Defense appropriations bill S-1867 C1031 and literally give the President the ability to order the arrest of anyone anywhere, without regard to violation of the 4th Amendment rights or respect to other nations Sovereignty. Such victims may be held until the President declares the War on Terror is over. Essentially the only requirement is to accuse them of being a terrorist or supporting terrorist activities. No proof or trial is required.

Sadly rumour has it that BO will veto this measure as he feels it restricts his power. However with the Senate having voted 93-7 the veto would be only symbolic.

I have no doubt that sooner or later King Harpo will go along with this. Again he has supposedly signed off on such a deal in secret but at the moment there is no way to know for sure.

EDIT: Pulled this quote from Senator Graham:


> And YES, it has now been confirmed that the indefinite detainment and murder provisions do apply to American citizens on the streets of American cities. As Sen. Lindsey Graham explained in plain language on the Senate floor: "...1031, the statement of authority to detain, does apply to American citizens and it designates the world as the battlefield, including the homeland."
> Learn more: Occupied America: Senate bill 1867 would allow U.S. military to detain and murder anti-government protesters in American cities
> ​


----------



## groovetube

and we all know, -only- bad guys are arrested. No innocents are wronged in any way.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The military arrests are covered under the new Defense appropriations bill S-1867 *C1031 and literally give the President the ability to order the arrest of anyone anywhere*, without regard to violation of the 4th Amendment rights or respect to other nations Sovereignty. Such victims may be held until the President declares the War on Terror is over. Essentially the only requirement is to accuse them of being a terrorist or supporting terrorist activities. No proof or trial is required.
> 
> Sadly rumour has it that BO will veto this measure as he feels it restricts his power. However with the Senate having voted 93-7 the veto would be only symbolic.
> 
> I have no doubt that sooner or later King Harpo will go along with this. Again he has supposedly signed off on such a deal in secret but at the moment there is no way to know for sure.
> 
> EDIT: Pulled this quote from Senator Graham:


This has absolutely nothing to do with the new perimeter security and economic competitiveness deal, you're off your rocker on this eMacMan.

As for section 1031 of Bill S-1867 in the US it doesn't apply to "anyone" anywhere:



> And Section 1031, which relates to the use of the armed forces to detain covered people “pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force,”* has a very narrow purpose of describing detention “under the law of war” of people who either participated in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, or is a member or “substantial supporter” of al-Qaida, the Taliban, or “associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.*”


It is very specific and narrow circumstances in which it can be applied... me thinks you are reading a few too many conspiracy theory sites.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> This has absolutely nothing to do with the new perimeter security and economic competitiveness deal, you're off your rocker on this eMacMan.
> 
> As for section 1031 of Bill S-1867 in the US it doesn't apply to "anyone" anywhere:
> 
> 
> 
> It is very specific and narrow circumstances in which it can be applied... me thinks you are reading a few too many conspiracy theory sites.


I think if you read German Newspapers in the 1930s you would see similar faith in the Nazi administration despite the establishment of the Brown Shirts and the Gestapo. Of course the reason Hitler and other Despots gain such control is nobody wants to believe their guy is that evil, even when facing clear evidence to the contrary.

Since there is no requirement for proof or trial, any one who happens to be a thorn in the side of the Grand Masters is a legitimate target, the President just has to say they are somehow related to a terrorist organization. Furthermore it does indeed apply on a world wide basis. 

With greater co-operation between King Harpo and the US it does put Canadians or anyone living in Canada at risk. Relying on the integrity or generosity of the US President, Military or CIA simply is not the same as respecting the Constitution.

In an ideal world this provision would be struck down within minutes by the Supreme Court, however Bush II and Bush III (AKA BO) have been carefully stacking the Supreme Court so that this sort of Nazi Police State Legislation can and probably will survive the challenge.

The only question is would Canada or could Canada stop a legally armed US agent from spiriting someone they don't like back to the US. When it does happen would Canada stand up for that individual. Given recent history where Harpo has left innocent Canadian citizens strung out when a word from his office would restore their freedom, you will forgive my being skeptical about him having the courage to stand up to Big Brother.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I think if you *read German Newspapers in the 1930s you would see similar faith in the Nazi administration *despite the establishment of the Brown Shirts and the Gestapo. Of course the reason Hitler and other Despots gain such control is nobody wants to believe their guy is that evil, even when facing clear evidence to the contrary.
> 
> Since there is no requirement for proof or trial, any one who happens to be a thorn in the side of the Grand Masters is a legitimate target, the President just has to say they are somehow related to a terrorist organization. Furthermore it does indeed apply on a world wide basis.
> 
> *With greater co-operation between King Harpo and the US it does put Canadians or anyone living in Canada at risk. Relying on the integrity or generosity of the US President, Military or CIA simply is not the same as respecting the Constitution.*
> 
> In an ideal world this provision would be struck down within minutes by the Supreme Court, however Bush II and Bush III (AKA BO) have been carefully stacking the Supreme Court so that this sort of Nazi Police State Legislation can and probably will survive the challenge.
> 
> The only question is would Canada or could Canada stop a legally armed US agent from spiriting someone they don't like back to the US. When it does happen would Canada stand up for that individual. Given recent history where Harpo has left innocent Canadian citizens strung out when a word from his office would restore their freedom, you will forgive my being skeptical about him having the courage to stand up to Big Brother.


Like I said too much tripping around conspiracy theory sites... this in not 1930's Nazi Germany.

It does not except in the minds of the paranoid... But carry on your merry FUD spreading way...


----------



## groovetube

wow. I never saw this...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






a disaster in shoe leather it seems...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## CubaMark

I've seen nightcrawlers on my fishing hooks squirm less than Hillyer.... that was embarrassing to watch....


----------



## BigDL

...but CM it's not his fault...it's, it's... why it's the fault....of the youtube poster's fault...yeah that's it, that's the ticket.


----------



## groovetube

the socialists made him act like a jack[*]


----------



## kps

He shouldn't have to apologize for anything, the gestures he made could mean a hundred different things. His inexperience in parliamentary "talk" of gobbledegook does make it painful to watch, but for the life of me I do not understand why someone would think he meant to offend victims of violence. Typical opportunistic crap.

My gesture to the opposition would have presented a different digit. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

It was in really poor taste kps, really.

It seems the conservative stupidity continues, this time with Diane Finley after cutting back staff at EI accusing workers of some sort of slowdown.

It couldn't be, that there are far less workers now after the cuts would it? Typical government blame someone else nonsense.
Minister accuses EI union of working to rule - The Globe and Mail


----------



## CubaMark

(Halifax Chronicle-Herald / Bruce Mackinnon)


----------



## groovetube

Gee CM, just more er, conspiracy crazy afraid of the nazis talk.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> (Halifax Chronicle-Herald / Bruce Mackinnon)


Nonsense.


----------



## groovetube

see?

Told'ya!


----------



## groovetube

Flaherty set to tighten flow of provincial health-care funding - The Globe and Mail

And there we have it. Corporate tax cats, hell yeah so important!!! Money in the back pockets of corporate fat cats is a priority! 

Healthcare... not so much.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Nonsense.


Privacy, at least, should be exported to Cuba.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Things are really turning around with Canada's new government.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa weighs sweeping review of tax system - The Globe and Mail


> The House of Commons finance committee is calling for an expert panel to conduct a wide-ranging review of Canada’s personal and corporate tax systems –* but any new tax cuts should wait until Ottawa balances the books.*


Yup, big money corporations got their big fat tax breaks to shove in their back pockets for bonuses and more BMWs while the general population were told it'd create jobs.

Ha, not only were Canadians duped out of tax cuts this time round, the whole job creation thing? Total sham.

Hook, line, and sinker.


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau calls Peter Kent 'piece of ****' in House of Commons | News | National Post

So Peter Kent tells the NDP MP "she sould have been there", after banning non government MPs from attending the summit.

Trudeau was too kind in calling him a piece of &^%$. He's far worse.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Trudeau was too kind in calling him a piece of &^%$. He's far worse.


Like father like son.


----------



## groovetube

that may be indeed so. But Peter Kent lied, and has proven himself a very dirty player. He deserved to be told. It may be said that Trudeau overstepped, but it's all relative. The conservatives are no better, so here we are.


----------



## kps

Anyone shocked or surprised by these developments in the "Nation of Quebec"?



> The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey indicates the NDP's support in the province has plunged to 26 per cent -- tied with the Bloc Quebecois and down 16 points since the NDP swept 59 of Quebec's 75 seats in last May's election.
> 
> This marks the first time since May that New Democrats have not held a distinct lead in the province in a Harris-Decima survey.
> 
> The poll suggests the NDP has bled support in four different directions; the Bloc, Liberals, Conservatives and Greens have all made modest gains since May.
> 
> Nationally, the poll puts the Conservatives at 34 per cent, the NDP at 28, the Liberals at 22 and the Greens at seven.


Poll: NDP support plunges in Quebec, tied with Bloc | CTV News


----------



## groovetube

wow 32 for the cons. Not a rosy picture there. But both the libs and the ndp are rudderless ships at this time.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Like father like son.


Not really SINC he doesn't have even half his father's intellect, more like his mother in that way.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Not really SINC he doesn't have even half his father's intellect.


Oh gosh, is that ever true, I was forced to sit through one of his well-meaning speeches and could hardly keep from nodding off, It was mostly about the passion he felt regarding subjects he clearly didn't understand well enough to speak about.


----------



## groovetube

Firm that made Cotler calls also worked for Speaker Andrew Scheer, other Tory candidates | Ottawa Citizen

man. Rotten to the core. This is the new honest government we were promised.

suckers.


----------



## jimbotelecom

This Cotler riding incident is particularly disgusting. This type of skulduggery belongs to an era long ago. Maybe that's why the CONS dropped the progressive moniker from their name. A return to the good ol days.


----------



## groovetube

it's astounding that not ONE, con supporters says a peep about the crap going down in Ottawa.

And here I thought, they were for good government? Guess not.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> it's astounding that not ONE, con supporters says a peep about the crap going down in Ottawa.
> 
> And here I thought, they were for good government? Guess not.


We're all too busy stimulating the Holiday economy with our consumerist ways instead of bitching.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> We're all too busy stimulating the Holiday economy with our consumerist ways instead of bitching.


It just shows what I've always believed--that Canadian progressives are a bunch of sad sack sourpusses, in a permanent state of dissatisfaction. Clawing at hair shirts is their only exercise.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> We're all too busy stimulating the Holiday economy with our consumerist ways instead of bitching.


So when the liberals were in, it was complain endlessly and howl about every perceived misdeed season. 

When the conservatives are in and are busy showing the liberals how it's done in terms of lying and screwin the average Canadian, well we're just permanently dissatisfied.

I would think be a real... libertarian, the state of not only permanent dissatisfaction, but one of hopeless despair would cause one to spew unintelligible nonsense at every post.

Oh wait.


----------



## Macfury

During the Christmas season even. Sad.


----------



## i-rui

"hey guys, it's christmas! why don't you be quiet while your country goes down the drain?"


----------



## groovetube

Is that why the cons like to quietly drop certain things while people are busy with xmas?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> "hey guys, it's christmas! why don't you be quiet while your country goes down the drain?"


Because that's only the vision that sad progressives are seeing through their peculiar lens. For everyone else, it's business as usual and a spring in our step!


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> "hey guys, it's christmas! why don't you be quiet while your country goes down the drain?"


I'm guessing someone doesn't see the humour in this.

oh wait


----------



## Macfury

Merry Christmas Canada!


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> "hey guys, it's christmas! why don't you be quiet while your country goes down the drain?"


Yup down the drain...as in doing very well economically, is financially stable and lo and behold...Toronto house prices up again by 2% or are you just ticked because you live in the heart of RODO country?

Should I really give a rat's behind about some Greek from Windsor? Who no doubt learned most of his skills doing work for the bankrupt auto industry there or the unions before Robbie and Dougie hired him?

Meh, get yer arse out there and shop...Merry Christmas!


----------



## groovetube

I don't know that the picture is as rosy as you suggest kps. Certainly not for everyone. There's a lot more people unemployed, and the obscene tax cut given to the upper end hasn't resulted in much job creation.

Guess we'll see where things are in the coming year.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> Yup down the drain...as in doing very well economically, is financially stable and lo and behold...Toronto house prices up again by 2% or are you just ticked because you live in the heart of RODO country?
> 
> Should I really give a rat's behind about some Greek from Windsor? Who no doubt learned most of his skills doing work for the bankrupt auto industry there or the unions before Robbie and Dougie hired him?
> 
> Meh, get yer arse out there and shop...Merry Christmas!


we get it. conservatives are in bliss (despite the record deficit and high employment rate). 

That lump of coal that should have come your way is thankfully going to be pumped into everyone else's air! And you're excited about the nice new f-35's and mega-jails that uncle Stevie has promised you for under the tree, but the problem is some of us realize that we'll be left picking up the bill for the crap we don't need while the things that are actually important breakdown in the decades to come.

Happy holidays!!


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I don't know that the picture is as rosy as you suggest kps. Certainly not for everyone. There's a lot more people unemployed, and the obscene tax cut given to the upper end hasn't resulted in much job creation.
> 
> Guess we'll see where things are in the coming year.


It's all relative Groove, isn't it?


----------



## groovetube

Amazing how many forget the absolute disaster left by the last conservatives. Not to mention the the Bush administration who also inherited a great financial standing as well.

Conservatives LOVE to spend. And spend, and spend. They'll yammer on endlessly about how the other spends, desperately trying to deflect the attention. But the truth is, Harper and co will run this country down the tubes soon enough. Flaherty is already waving his hands blaming the EU, America, or whomever he has lined up for an excuse.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> It's all relative Groove, isn't it?


it is kps. I'm lucky, at least for now anyway...  But I'm well aware there are far more people out of a job who aren't getting anywhere. Both here, and south of the border.


----------



## kps

Could be worse, Rui...we could have the deficit and unemployment of our neighbours to the south just to begin with.

Although you dwell largely on the F35 and Mega-jails issue, I don't see any of that taking fruition any time soon, crime bill notwithstanding.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Merry Christmas Canada!


And a happy new year. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> Could be worse, Rui...we could have the deficit and unemployment of our neighbours to the south just to begin with.
> ...


If, as anticipated, King Harpo follows the US into Syria, Iran, then Pakistan it is a pretty good bet that Canada's financial health will be about the same as SOB. The Harpolites have already started to pound the Syrian war drum and it's a good bet that the MIC Types SOB, are gonna want to deploy those currently idle troops anywhere but home.

Note; SOB=South of the Border.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> If, as anticipated, King Harpo follows the US into Syria, Iran, then Pakistan it is a pretty good bet that Canada's financial health will be about the same as SOB. The Harpolites have already started to pound the Syrian war drum and it's a good bet that the MIC Types SOB, are gonna want to deploy those currently idle troops anywhere but home.
> 
> Note; SOB=South of the Border.


Keep spreading the FUD eMacMan it seems it is what you do best...


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Keep spreading the FUD eMacMan it seems it is what you do best...


I recognize pre-attack propaganda. I am sure King Harpo will be every bit as reticent to participate in the attack on Syria as he was when the US attacked Libya.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> If, as anticipated, King Harpo follows the US into Syria, Iran, then Pakistan it is a pretty good bet that Canada's financial health will be about the same as SOB. The Harpolites have already started to pound the Syrian war drum and it's a good bet that the MIC Types SOB, are gonna want to deploy those currently idle troops anywhere but home.
> 
> Note; SOB=South of the Border.


Harper has quite clearly shown that he would have followed Bush into Iraq. So if this occurs, any reasonable person could conclude he would do the same in these cases.



screature said:


> Keep spreading the FUD eMacMan it seems it is what you do best...


For someone who gets so indignant at someone making things personal, he sure has no problem lobbing them out at anytime eh?


----------



## eMacMan

Would love for time to prove me wrong, but that little excursion into Libya pretty much seals the deal as to what King Harpo would like to do. Canada did not need the expense or the experience. The US certainly did not need Canada's help to bomb Libya into the clutches of the IMF. So the only reason Canada participated was to satisfy the Kings bloodlust.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Would love for time to prove me wrong, but that little excursion into Libya pretty much seals the deal as to what King Harpo would like to do. Canada did not need the expense or the experience. The US certainly did not need Canada's help to bomb Libya into the clutches of the IMF. *So the only reason Canada participated was to satisfy the Kings bloodlust*.


That is obviously it eMacMan. Including the bloodlust of the Arab League and the UN...I'm just glad that you and those that think like you weren't in charge during WWII otherwise you and I would be addressing each other as Herr.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> That is obviously it eMacMan. Including the bloodlust of the Arab League and the UN...I'm just glad that you and those that think like you weren't in charge during WWII otherwise you and I would be addressing each other as Herr.


My original point stands. Canada's help was not needed nor are we in the financial position to support this nonsense. Course Libya was not encroaching on anyones borders nor were they a threat to anyone but their own people and only a few of those. Still I am sure we were justified in destroying their infrastructure as some of their citizens did indeed suffer under the Ghadafi regime. They weren't being frozen or starved to death like some of Canada's native population but hey we really are better than them at least in Harpo Head. 

Of course now Libya will have to borrow from the IMF to quickly rebuild the nations power grid, water system, hospitals, homes.... Their people will joyously welcome the destruction, for now their oil will go to France rather than China, Italy has been avenged for some ancient slight, Canada glows with pride at the thousands of innocent people we helped slaughter and the US has a friendly puppet in charge and perhaps another military base or three. 

Our goals have been well met. Perhaps we should also be bombing the crap out of Israel. After all we have to destroy anyone that stands accused of genocide. Oh wait they don't have oil, they are stealing land and water from their neighbours, and the Bible provides an exception to the "Thou Shat Not kill" and the "Thou Shalt Not Steal" commandments, if the perpetrators are Jewish and the victims are not. 

Sorry but Evil is Evil. Even if it's the "Good Guys" who are doing it.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> My original point stands. Canada's help was not needed nor are we in the financial position to support this nonsense. Course Libya was not encroaching on anyones borders nor were they a threat to anyone but their own people and *only a few of those*. Still I am sure we were justified in destroying their infrastructure as some of their citizens did indeed suffer under the Ghadafi regime. *They weren't being frozen or starved to death like some of Canada's native population but hey we really are better than them at least in Harpo Head.
> *
> Of course now Libya will have to borrow from the IMF to quickly rebuild the nations power grid, water system, hospitals, homes.... Their people will joyously welcome the destruction, for now their oil will go to France rather than China, Italy has been avenged for some ancient slight,* Canada glows with pride at the thousands of innocent people we helped slaughter* and the US has a friendly puppet in charge and perhaps another military base or three.
> 
> Our goals have been well met. Perhaps we should also be bombing the crap out of Israel. After all we have to destroy anyone that stands accused of genocide. Oh wait they don't have oil, they are stealing land and water from their neighbours, and the Bible provides an exception to the "Thou Shat Not kill" and the "Thou Shalt Not Steal" commandments, if the perpetrators are Jewish and the victims are not.
> 
> *Sorry but Evil is Evil. Even if it's the "Good Guys" who are doing it.*


Your math is seriously wrong try tens of thousands. 

Really??? You are going to compare Ghadafi to modern day Canada and abobriginals treatment under any Prime Minister??? That is a stretch to the point of being completely absurd.

_Thousands of innocent people we helped slaughter_???? Where do you get this ****e.. oh I know you make it up or only listen to and read the writings of people who do.

Uh no helping to stop evil with equal and greater force than the evil doers is not evil it is just and right.

At any rate you and I will never agree on such matters because I live in the real world and not some fantasy land where either you wear a black or a white hat and there is no grey in between... over and definitely out.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Your math is seriously wrong try tens of thousands.
> 
> Really??? You are going to compare Ghadafi to modern day Canada and abobriginals treatment under any Prime Minister??? That is a stretch to the point of being completely absurd.
> 
> _Thousands of innocent people we helped slaughter_???? Where do you get this ****e.. oh I know you make it up or only listen to and read the writings of people who do.
> 
> Uh no helping to stop evil with equal and greater force than the evil doers is not evil it is just and right.
> 
> At any rate you and I will never agree on such matters because I live in the real world and not some fantasy land where either you wear a black or a white hat and there is no grey in between... over and definitely out.


As absurd as comparing Ghadafi to Adolf????

Anyways I think you have illustrated beautifully why I believe Canada will follow the US into Syria, Iran and Pakistan and bankruptcy. Only the arms dealers and Banksters will benefit. The occupied nations will suffer as will the surviving populace. But hey as long as we keep the oil prices high, put our own puppets in charge, and the Banksters keep bribing our politicians, all is well in Harpo Land.


----------



## MacDoc

move on move on....no agenda here.....



> *Be very afraid: Stephen Harper is inventing a new Canada*
> GERALD CAPLAN
> Globe and Mail Update
> Published Friday, Dec. 16, 2011 6:09PM EST
> 
> Stephen Harper first became Prime Minister in 2006 and has already dramatically transformed the old Canada. But with no election due for four more years, we ain’t seen nothing yet.
> 
> It’s in the nature of true believers and ideologues to believe that any means to their sacred ends are justified. This makes them extremely dangerous people. It’s also typical of such people that they’re often motivated by unfathomable resentment and anger, a compulsion not just to better but to destroy their adversaries. These are good descriptions of Stephen Harper and those closest to him.


more and damning 

Be very afraid: Stephen Harper is inventing a new Canada - The Globe and Mail

worth a read..of course you won't if you're a Harper lap puppy 
- you'll end up thoroughly pissed if you are not.....


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> move on move on....no agenda here.....
> 
> more and damning
> 
> Be very afraid: Stephen Harper is inventing a new Canada - The Globe and Mail
> 
> worth a read..of course you won't if you're a Harper lap puppy
> - you'll end up thoroughly pissed if you are not.....


Why would I be afraid when I am not even surprised....

Gerald Lewis (Gerry) Caplan



> Gerald Lewis (Gerry) Caplan, PhD (born 1938) is a Canadian academic, public policy analyst, commentator and political activist. He has had a varied career in academia, as a* political organizer for the New Democratic Party*...


If you are an NDP lap puppy you will lap this up like it was mother's milk... yum yum....

BTW... Gerald Lewis..? I think we all know how seriously to take him...


----------



## SINC

A hack job by a political hack is supposed to be objective and truthful?


----------



## groovetube

Excuse me, but I believe it was Stephen Harper -himself- who said we won't recognize it when he's done.


----------



## groovetube

things get stinkier by the day it seems.

Creekside: Campaign Research Con cats are out of the bag


----------



## CubaMark

Even more evidence of Conservative ineptitude. Salmon dying? Forget science - just _massage the message._

*Government email makes waves at salmon inquiry*



> A government email describing a potentially lethal fish virus as a public relations problem has caused a stir at a federal inquiry in Vancouver.
> 
> The federally appointed Cohen Commission was called two years ago to examine what caused the 2009 collapse of the Fraser River sockeye.
> 
> The suggestion that an influenza-like virus had penetrated B.C. waters came just as the 21-month inquiry was wrapping up, prompting the commissioner to hold three more days of hearings.





> The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) immediately set about retesting Kibenge's samples, and told the media several weeks later they had found no evidence of the virus.
> 
> When news media made that the headline the next day, officials celebrated in a private email that has now been made public.
> 
> "It is clear that we are turning the PR tide in our favour, and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes at the tech briefing," CFIA B.C. manager Joseph Beres wrote.
> 
> "One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war, also."


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> If you are an NDP lap puppy you will lap this up like it was mother's milk... yum yum....
> 
> BTW... Gerald Lewis..? I think we all know how seriously to take him...


A Conservative is, of course, an ideologue. Bur being a committed left-wing fruitcake... that's just normal.


----------



## groovetube

oh we aren't plying victim are we? Yeah I think that's it isn't it.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## groovetube

ouch.

Perhaps McKay's finances should be put under '3rd party management'.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Even more evidence of Conservative ineptitude. Salmon dying? Forget science - just _massage the message._


Hmmm, I don't know how specifically this relates to the conservatives.... no one higher than a departmental Director was mentioned, this seems to be more a bureaucratic matter within the department by my reading of the article.


----------



## groovetube

isn't it funny, how when the conservatives blow wads of our money it's a 'bureaucratic matter'. But when the liberals do, there are cries to bring those criminal liberals to justice.

It's tough not being in opposition, and having your turn at the trough.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Hmmm, I don't know how specifically this relates to the conservatives.... no one higher than a departmental Director was mentioned, this seems to be more a bureaucratic matter within the department by my reading of the article.


These interpretations are apparently not valid when a Conservative is Prime Minister.


----------



## i-rui

MacDoc said:


> move on move on....no agenda here.....
> 
> 
> 
> more and damning
> 
> Be very afraid: Stephen Harper is inventing a new Canada - The Globe and Mail
> 
> worth a read..of course you won't if you're a Harper lap puppy
> - you'll end up thoroughly pissed if you are not.....


good article. thanks for posting it. because of it i tracked down the sunday edition interview with Iceland's president. Sounds like a great leader. here's a link if anyone wants to give it a listen (for some reason i couldn't get safari to load the audio, but firefox worked fine) :

Audio




SINC said:


> A hack job by a political hack is supposed to be objective and truthful?


well it's an opinion piece, so by definition it's subjective,but what exactly did you not find truthful? I don't think he made up any facts or incidents.


----------



## screature

Exactly what "facts" are you referring to the re are little to no facts in the piece merely a vomiting up of pent up bile, FUD and obvious personal disdain...



> It’s in the nature of true believers and ideologues to believe that any means to their sacred ends are justified. This makes them extremely dangerous people. It’s also typical of such people that they’re often motivated by unfathomable resentment and anger, a compulsion not just to better but to destroy their adversaries. These are good descriptions of Stephen Harper and those closest to him.


Could the same not be said of any political party that adheres to a certain philosophy or mindset??? Clearly, but it is only a conservative mindset that one should be afraid of.



> There was never a Trudeauland or Mulroneyland or Chrétienland, but as The Globe’s Lawrence Martin has made us understand, there is already a Harperland whose nature is quite apparent.


:lmao: There was never a Trudeualand... what a complete joke... we continue to live in Trudealand, thank god to some degree of dismantling of it has begun.



> Like the American conservatives whom the Harperites so envy...


Again... :lmao: That is why Harper and Obama get along so well.



> Mr. Kenney employed gratuitously inflammatory language when he created a crisis over a handful of women who wear a veil, and who are of course Muslim.


What exactly is Caplan referring to here???



> On the complex aboriginal file, Harperland *blames the victims for their own wretched circumstances* and *blames local NDP MP Charlie Angus* for not cluing in the clueless Aboriginal Affairs Minister. The minister’s assertion that the chief of Attawapiskat had accepted the government’s imposition of a ludicrously expensive third-party manager was, of course, immediately contradicted.


Harper does not blame the victims he in fact has not blamed anyone he has however called into question the financial management of the chief and band leaders, who due to their high salaries are far from being victims of any kind.

Charlie Angus has been the MP for 7 years, he is indeed partially culpable for the situation that exists there... if anyone was asleep at the wheel he was.



> Harperland values demand fundamental changes in our governance processes – the outright attacks on trade unions, the unprecedented measures taken to silence critical NGOs, *the muzzling of ostensibly independent federal watchdogs.*


Outright attacks on trade unions...? Extreme hyperbole to say the least. Silencing of NGOs...? Wow is this even possible they are NON-Government Organizations.

Muzzling of watch dogs... pure BS they have their say and it makes the news, but sometimes the government disagrees with their findings.



> But the new values also reverse decades of cherished Canadian policies. Look at the contempt the Prime Minister shows for the United Nations, as described in a new paper for the McLeod Group by former Canadian diplomat and senior UN official Carolyn McAskie, “Canada and Multilateralism: Missing In Action”:


The UN has been corrupt, dysfunctional and largely impotent for decades.. there is reason to have less than a high opinion of it.



> To damage Canada’s reputation even further, Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has gravely disappointed those who had high expectations of him as the country’s senior diplomat. Sadly, Mr. Baird has proved incapable of eschewing the cheap politics by which he demeaned the House for so many years, complete with endlessly-repeated spin lines that substitute on the world stage partisan slogans for real thought.


Exactly what is Caplan referring to here? He provides no examples what so ever, just pure opinion without any thing to back it up.



> The new Canada is a place where *militarism is given pride of place over peacemaking.* Watching Defence Minister Peter MacKay taking bows at the Grey Cup game for Canada's part in the Libyan campaign, Globe columnist Lawrence Martin observed:
> 
> The blending of sport and the military, with the government as the marching band, is part of the new nationalism the Conservatives are trying to instill. It is another example of how the state, under Stephen Harper’s governance, is becoming all-intrusive. … State controls are now at a highpoint in our modern history. There is every indication they will extend further.


Yeah fighting a war in Afghanistan that the Liberal government got us into air support in Libya that was sanctioned by the Arab League... horrible just horrible. 

As for his constant quotes Lawrence Martin... he wrote Harperland for C****t's sake it's not like the guy is going to say anything else about Harper... he hates the guy.

His references to Flanagan are completely useless as he and Harper have fallen out with each other for years and like somehow Flanagan's stupid statements are somehow the failing of Harper and the government.

Caplan's most laughable comment is saved for last:



> There, in Mr. Grimmson, was the voice of humanity, thoughtfulness, pragmatism and commonsense. He is the perfect Canadian and would make the perfect Canadian prime minister.


:lmao: A radio broadcaster is his choice for Prime Minister... why not suggest Rex Murphy or George Stroumboulopoulos, at least they have experience being on camera.


----------



## groovetube

so then one blames the MP for the area, without even any clue as to whether the MP was hard at work to work on these issues or not.

Anything, to deflect blame from the glorious leader. The Harper worship is just sickening.


----------



## MacDoc

Rex was such a joke today on cross county- getting nailed by people disgusted with Harper in general, climate change lack of action in particular.....then he fawns over some royalist who LUVS Harper and all things royal.....so they blather on about the Royals while he gave short shrift to the guy on the Higgs boson story which indeed may be the most important of the new century let alone year.

Like the rest of his right wing buds actual science remains a mystery to avoid at all costs...might make them look dumb.....even more than the actions undertaken.

But keep fawning on the royals and Harpo Rex - keeps Dear Leader Stephen smiling.

They need to get a journalist like Rick Mckinnis Ray on there instead of a Tory mouth piece.....Rex has been an embarrassment for years with his pretend impartiality. XX)


----------



## i-rui

i-rui said:


> I don't think he made up any facts or incidents.





screature said:


> Exactly what "facts" are you referring to the re are little to no facts in the piece merely a vomiting up of pent up bile, FUD and obvious personal disdain...


i didn't want to quote your entire post because you never actually posted any *facts* that the author of the piece manufactured. you simply pointed out points where you disagreed with his opinion. fair enough, but given that the article is an *opinion* piece, hardly surprising.


----------



## groovetube

heh, so much for being non partisan.


----------



## BigDL

Com'mon GT, free thinker can say anything. 

Free to say they're non-aligned and free to personally attack others, all with self perceived impunity.

The only thing they are not free to claim is a thick skin.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Rex was such a joke today on cross county- getting nailed by people disgusted with Harper in general, climate change lack of action in particular.....then he fawns over some royalist who LUVS Harper and all things royal.....so they blather on about the Royals while he gave short shrift to the guy on the Higgs boson story which indeed may be the most important of the new century let alone year.
> 
> Like the rest of his right wing buds actual science remains a mystery to avoid at all costs...might make them look dumb.....even more than the actions undertaken.
> 
> But keep fawning on the royals and Harpo Rex - keeps Dear Leader Stephen smiling.
> 
> They need to get a journalist like Rick Mckinnis Ray on there instead of a Tory mouth piece.....Rex has been an embarrassment for years with his pretend impartiality. XX)


The angrier you get, the more I realize the country is on the right track!


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Com'mon GT, free thinker can say anything.
> 
> Free to say they're non-aligned and free to personally attack others, all with self perceived impunity.
> 
> The only thing they are not free to claim is a thick skin.


makes me chuckle to see the scurrying. If you can't face the likes of me, well good luck ta yeh.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, definitely on the right track!


----------



## groovetube

There nothing like using the anger of others to gauge how right one is.

One would guess there isn't much else.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Com'mon GT, free thinker can say anything.
> 
> Free to say they're non-aligned and free to personally attack others, all with self perceived impunity.
> 
> The only thing they are not free to claim is a thick skin.


Personal attacks, perhaps occasionally but you and your cohorts are the decided winners in that realm...

As for the rest of your post... pot meet kettle.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i didn't want to quote your entire post because you never actually posted any *facts* that the author of the piece manufactured. you simply pointed out points where you disagreed with his opinion. fair enough, but given that the article is an opinion piece, hardly surprising.


Plenty of them actually...


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Com'mon GT, free thinker can say anything.
> 
> Free to say they're non-aligned and free to personally attack others, all with self perceived impunity.
> 
> The only thing they are not free to claim is a thick skin.


yeah well, it's pretty much one all, but at least I don't stamp my feet screaming NO FAIR! ignoring because I can't take what I dish.

Remember the one that'd plug their ears shouting la la la la after spewing insults? Yeah.


----------



## BigDL

Shouldn't be long before Conservative popularity is swirling down the crapper.

Cuts to transfers for health care all the while cuts to corporate taxes go forward.



CBCNews said:


> The federal government is guaranteeing six per cent health-care funding increases until the 2016-17 fiscal year, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said Monday.
> 
> After that, the annual increase will be tied to nominal GDP, but is guaranteed to be at least three per cent, he said.
> 
> Nominal GDP is the monetary value of all goods and services produced within the country annually, including inflation. If nominal GDP rises four per cent and inflation is two per cent, the economy's real GDP growth is two per cent.
> 
> The current agreement, which guarantees six per cent a year increases, expires in 2014, and the provinces wanted that to continue.
> 
> Flaherty made the announcement as he wrapped up meetings with the provincial and territorial finance ministers on federal funding for health and pensions Monday afternoon in Victoria.
> 
> The provincial and territorial ministers were informed of the new federal formula over lunch.
> 
> Several of them lined up to speak out against the decision, citing a lack of negotiation with two years left to reach a new agreement.
> 
> The provinces will lose out on billions of dollars, Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said.


cuts to healthcare transfer by Federal Conservatives


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Personal attacks, perhaps occasionally but you and your cohorts are the decided winners in that realm...
> 
> As for the rest of your post... pot meet kettle.


Was I speaking to you? Apparently yes.

My comments were directed to my ol' pal GT.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Shouldn't be long before Conservative popularity is swirling down the crapper.
> 
> Cuts to transfers for health care all the while cuts to corporate taxes go forward.
> 
> 
> 
> cuts to healthcare transfer by Federal Conservatives


why on gods green earth should those rich corporations have to pay anything towards healthcare that keeps their workers healthy and living. The execs can afford their own so what gives?


----------



## BigDL

...not to mention Canadian Health Care helps corporate competitiveness and bottom lines as well.


----------



## groovetube

but DOH there's that damn ideology gettin in the way of common sense.


----------



## groovetube

oh, did I not hear something to the effect of... "Unlike the previous Liberal government, we won’t balance the budget by cutting health care transfers."

hmmm.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Looks like they've sealed the deal*

Russian ban ‘spells the end of Canadian sealing,’ activists say - The Globe and Mail

Now we'll await OGL's response.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Here's a CON for ya*

Peter MacKay Hotel Expenses: Minister Stayed At Pricey Accommodations In Munich And Istanbul While Staff Slept More Cheaply

Things just getting better with Kanukistan's "New" government.


----------



## BigDL

That Putin feller is gonna be in a big world of hurt, first the election troubles and now on the bad side of OGL.


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> That Putin feller is gonna be in big world of hurt, first the election troubles and now on the bad side of OGL.


Fur shure.


----------



## jimbotelecom

And here comes the ad campaigns....

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=5879701


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Peter MacKay Hotel Expenses: Minister Stayed At Pricey Accommodations In Munich And Istanbul While Staff Slept More Cheaply
> 
> Things just getting better with Kanukistan's "New" government.


Man are you ever behind the times this is old news and here is a reasoned response:

Peter MacKay in Munich: Let’s not be pound foolish
MacLeans


----------



## SINC

Good riddance to a bad and costly mistake. Thankfully the government is advising Canadians via this campaign that they are no longer viewed as criminals for owning a long gun for gophers, big game, waterfowl and upland game hunting and target practice.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Was I speaking to you? Apparently yes.
> 
> My comments were directed to my ol' pal GT.


You were not speaking to me but about me... dah.


----------



## screature

CBC's glitzy Strombo party cost $72Gs plus

Makes Mackay's Munich trip look like a sleep over by comparison.



> CBC paid more than one-and-a-half times the average income of a working Canadian for a one-night, celebrity-filled party last September.
> 
> Called the Hazelton Takeover, the event cost taxpayers more than $72,000, thousands more than CBC president Hubert Lacroix claimed when he appeared before a Commons committee.
> 
> The lavish event, held at "Canada's only 5 star hotel" in "the city's finest and most fashionable downtown district," brought CBC host George Stroumboulopoulos together with American and British celebrities during the Toronto International Film Festival.
> 
> Lacroix told MPs that the party cost $64,000, but a single invoice from Veritas Communications shows a charge of $72,372.
> 
> Other invoices, including one from the Hazelton Hotel, have had all the key information -- including charges -- removed.


----------



## groovetube

Tory crime bill to put pressure on courts - The Globe and Mail

Sometimes, it's actually a good thing to think things through before ramming things through. Not this governments strongest suit however.


----------



## jimbotelecom

^^^^^

Yes they have been thoroughly warned on the hidden and ancillary costs of their crime bill, but full steam ahead.

This is something majority govt's can afford to do in there first year in a new reign. They'll have to put on the brakes on a lot of this unnecessary stuff in years 3 and 4, or risk a return to minority status.


----------



## groovetube

you like actually do things to make the majority of Canadians happy as opposed to their small minority of wingnuts?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> CBC's glitzy Strombo party cost $72Gs plus
> 
> Makes Mackay's Munich trip look like a sleep over by comparison.


ah. A true partisan would deflect the issue with a standard "well someone else spent more!" response.

Well done.


----------



## BigDL

If it were any other Corporation and I mean all the others including other crown corporations Conservative supporters would cry commercial confidentiality and privacy interests would trump the public's right to know.

Now that the Conservatives and the Conservative supporters have the CBC in their sites, all information is fair game.

I guess Terry Milewski's tough questioning of Our Glorious Leader has gotten under all of the Conservative's thin skin.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You were not speaking to me but about me... dah.


If you insist.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> If it were any other Corporation and I mean all the others including other crown corporations Conservative supporters would cry commercial confidentiality and privacy interests would trump the public's right to know.
> 
> Now that the Conservatives and the Conservative supporters have the CBC in their sites, all information is fair game.


You've got to be joking. All Crown Corporations are fair game.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> You've got to be joking. All Crown Corporations are fair game.


Why?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Why?


Because they are _Crown_ Corporations.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *If it were any other Corporation and I mean all the others including other crown corporations Conservative supporters would cry commercial confidentiality and privacy interests would trump the public's right to know.*
> 
> Now that the Conservatives and the Conservative supporters have the CBC in their sites, all information is fair game.
> 
> I guess Terry Milewski's tough questioning of Our Glorious Leader has gotten under all of the Conservative's thin skin.


Hogwash.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Because they are _Crown_ Corporations.


Bingo!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Another example of CON skullduggery*

TheRecord - Phone number behind misleading call disconnected


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS going bananas over Tarsands*

Will you boycott Chiquita bananas over its oilsands stance? - Your Community

Only Chiquita bananas chez-nous!


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> TheRecord - Phone number behind misleading call disconnected


Hard to believe anyone with any rational thought could make a conspiracy out of some hired person's error on election duty. Incredible how low some will go with their hatred of Conservatives. Adscam anyone? Now there, was a real conspiracy.


----------



## groovetube

error? As in oops I called some liberal voters at 2am?

Yeah right.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> error? As in oops I called some liberal voters at 2am?
> 
> Yeah right.


So Adscam wasn't an error? Oh my.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Rebuke for CONS on Attawapiskat from the UN*

Ottawa’s handling of Attawapiskat crisis draws UN rebuke - The Globe and Mail

To think that Canada was one of the leading forces behind the creation of the UN. Times do change.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Married CON MP separated from his communist mistress*

Beijing replaces reporter who traded flirtatious emails with Tory MP - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> So Adscam wasn't an error? Oh my.


ah, we aren't discussing adscam. Adscam was a corrupt bunch of BS that resulted in the liberals finally getting tossed. Why you feel the need to start discussing adscam is anyone's guess, but a good one is simply, deflection.

Unfortunately being in power means people expect certain things of a government, and criticism is going to happen no matter how many times you try to invoke adscam.

It seems the only response from conservative supporters is, 'the other guy blah blah...'


Well the other guy isn't power. Sorry.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Hard to believe anyone with any rational thought could make a conspiracy out of some hired person's error on election duty.


error?? lol



> It also revealed she was not alone. Elections Canada received over 100 reports of such misleading phone calls in the run-up to the May 2nd election.


and considering that most people won't even bother to register a complaint i think it's safe to assume we're talking thousands of "errors".


----------



## Macfury

Keep it up with the pipsqueak complaints guys. Hilarious!


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Because they are _Crown_ Corporations.





screature said:


> Bingo!


Interesting full disclosure to the public for Crown Corporations but Our Glorious Leader and Tony Clement don't even have to be accountable, not even to Parliament.

It is to Laugh! XX)


----------



## groovetube

it's always a hoot to see those who complained the most now consider the misdeeds of the conservatives, nothing to complain about.

Look at them fall over themselves waving their arms, NO NO!!! NO don't complain!!! NOOOOOO!


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> TheRecord - Phone number behind misleading call disconnected


This is indeed concerning, however there is much that is as yet unknown... most likely some young or old punk...

This type of behaviour is not defensible... root the bastards out and eject them from the Party is what I would do...


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Ottawa’s handling of Attawapiskat crisis draws UN rebuke - The Globe and Mail
> 
> To think that Canada was one of the leading forces behind the creation of the UN. *Times do change.*


As has the UN...


----------



## screature

*Married CON MP separated from his communist mistress*



jimbotelecom said:


> Beijing replaces reporter who traded flirtatious emails with Tory MP - The Globe and Mail


Lame title for your post jimbo... 

Your might consider a career change to write for the Enquirer (or maybe you already do) or some other such rag... you would be a hit!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Canada's inflation rate highest since Mulroney years*

[Inflation poised to hit 20-year high - thestar.com

Wow, has Mulroney paid back the $2 Million he owes Canadian taxpayers yet?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper ready to sell tarsand produce to communists*

Canada 'very serious' about selling its oil to China, Harper says - The Globe and Mail

Getting greasier.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> [Inflation poised to hit 20-year high - thestar.com
> 
> Wow, has Mulroney paid back the $2 Million he owes Canadian taxpayers yet?


Wow, have the Libs paid back the 40+ million $ for Adscam yet...  Not to mention their plundering of the EI program...

Oh and I guess in your world Canada exists in a vacuum invulnerable to what is going on in the rest of the planet?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Canada 'very serious' about selling its oil to China, Harper says - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Getting greasier.


So what..? Greasier how...?

Your headline hunting is like a carny duck shooting game... keep them coming... :lmao:

When someone shots enough of your lame ducks do we get a prize?


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing the conservatives will make that 40 mil look like chump change by the time they're done. Just ask teflon Tony about the 50 mil snagged that was for something else pork barrelled in his riding with pretty much no paper trail.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I'm guessing the conservatives will make that 40 mil look like chump change by the time they're done. Just ask teflon Tony about the 50 mil snagged that was for something else pork barrelled in his riding with pretty much no paper trail.


GT, Tony got elected, Peter got to his meetings and the Lobsters were skinned. Never mind who else is getting skinned.

Nothing to see here, move along, move along.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> GT, Tony got elected, Peter got to his meetings and the Lobsters were skinned. Never mind who else is getting skinned.
> 
> Nothing to see here, move along, move along.


Perhaps those who initially supported the liberals but withdrew their support after their misdeeds have been had here. What we should be doing is doing just what the hard core con supporters are doing, defend anything and everything they do and just respond with, well the conservatives blah blah if any of them dare, to criticize.

It's quite the spectacle actually. I thought they really had more credibility than this nonsense.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS helping the hard working citizens of Hamilton*

TheSpec - Scandalous betrayal; lost opportunity


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> TheSpec - Scandalous betrayal; lost opportunity


United Steelworker betrayed, says Ken Neumann, national director for Canada, United Steelworkers


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> TheSpec - Scandalous betrayal; lost opportunity


careful, because cons will just stick a fork in the messenger. oh, right on cue.

Doesn't matter whether there's any truth in it, because that isn't the point. The point is, the cons are RIGHT.

Hands waving furiously.


----------



## BigDL

The other tactic is everyone is a hater. 

Only praise be onto Our Glorious Leader, his magnificent Ministers, under Ministers, lackeys and stooges. 

Nothing to see here, move along, move along...it's not so bad...and did you see what those other guys done?


----------



## SINC

This thread has gone from political discussion to the Kiddies Playhouse. Have fun kiddies, I'm out.


----------



## i-rui

denial ain't just a river in egypt....


----------



## BigDL

No wait! I for one, will try and miss you.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> This thread has gone from political discussion to the Kiddies Playhouse..


Yep. Doesn't take much talent...but does take a whole lot of spare time... to root out every online pundit's picayune complaints about the government in power.


----------



## groovetube

is that really all you got? Once again, I'm tickled pink to watch the few con supporters so intent on defending clear misdeeds. We've gone from nothing to see here, to we;; we must have too much time on our hands.

The furious waving of the hands, say it ain't so! You're all losers, wastin time! no it can't be that I've been had by our glorious honest, open, transparently accountable government! 

Man it must really be a disappointment to watch as what was supposed to be so much better, only be defended by the meek little mewlings of, 'well the wiberals did it tooooo'.

ha ha ha ha. Wear it well boys.


----------



## kps

The preceding was brought to you by:


JimboNN


----------



## groovetube

NOOOWWW, who has too much time on their hands.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> The preceding was brought to you by:
> 
> 
> JimboNN


Har! The Jimbo News Net, where we scoop the poop so you don't have to.


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> The preceding was brought to you by:
> 
> 
> JimboNN


Like it. May I have your permission to use?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Har! The Jimbo News Net, where we scoop the poop so you don't have to.


this post reminds me of -that- guy who's around when someone cracks one, slaps his knee afterwards coming up with multiple variations. -that- guy.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Like it. May I have your permission to use?


Use and enjoy all you want, just watch for Anderson Cooper.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Use and enjoy all you want, just watch for Anderson Cooper.


Anderson Cooper's show will now be known as Jimbotelecom 360° on JNN.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON election promises made and then broken*

dailygleaner.com - Death and deadlines | THE DAILY GLEANER - Breaking News, New Brunswick, Canada

Brought to you by:


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Here come the CON wingnuts*

Tory MP fuels abortion debate with call to revisit rights-of-unborn law - The Globe and Mail

brought to you by:


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Tory MP fuels abortion debate with call to revisit rights-of-unborn law - The Globe and Mail
> 
> brought to you by:


Cool. Will you have James Earl Jones record his classic "This is JNN" intro???


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> Cool. Will you have James Earl Jones record his classic "This is JNN" intro???


Working on it. How about Brian Mulroney's buttery voice instead?


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Working on it. How about Brian Mulroney's buttery voice instead?


Appropriate politically, but not the same tone.


----------



## CubaMark

*Just four days before Xmas, time for a little patronage...*

*Tories hand out pre-Christmas patronage posts to at least a dozen party faithful*



> Conservative cabinet ministers got to play Santa Claus over the last week, handing out patronage posts to at least a dozen people with Tory ties.
> 
> The recipients included failed candidates, ex-caucus members, members of Conservative riding executives and longtime party faithful. While in power, the Liberals also made a habit of naming party stalwarts to federal boards.





> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office said all the appointments are based on merit, with all individuals having relevant experience.


(WinnipegFreePress)


----------



## Macfury

Horrors! They're giving out positions to party faithful, overturning a century of precedent!


----------



## kps

CubaMark said:


> *Just four days before Xmas, time for a little patronage...*


_Membership Has Its Privileges_....

*


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Horrors! They're giving out positions to party faithful, overturning a century of precedent!


except they promised to change this.

better luck next time I guess eh.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> except they promised to change this.
> 
> better luck next time I guess eh.


Well, gt, as the old saying goes, "Do as I say, not as I do". Paix, mon ami.

Full Disclosure -- I actually voted for PM Harper and the Conservatives in 2004, due mainly to the fact that they had an honest and trustworthy MP candidate, Norman Doyle, who gave up his provincial pension to run for MP. He felt that he should not receive a provincial pension if he was running for federal office. He won and every year he was in Parliament, he gave his provincial pension to various NL charities. 

Still, I never again voted for the Conservatives.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Well, gt, as the old saying goes, "Do as I say, not as I do". Paix, mon ami.
> 
> Full Disclosure -- I actually voted for PM Harper and the Conservatives in 2004, due mainly to the fact that they had an honest and trustworthy MP candidate, Norman Doyle, who gave up his provincial pension to run for MP. He felt that he should not receive a provincial pension if he was running for federal office. He won and every year he was in Parliament, he gave his provincial pension to various NL charities.
> 
> Still, I never again voted for the Conservatives.


the worst of all this is when the cons crash and burn, whether it be next election or the one after, we'll face another, majority of 'oh we wont do that...' only to get more BS. 

No more majorities. It didn't work before, and it certainly isn't with these liars.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> the worst of all this is when the cons crash and burn, whether it be next election or the one after, we'll face another, majority of 'oh we wont do that...' only to get more BS.
> 
> No more majorities. It didn't work before, and it certainly isn't with these liars.


Snicker....

*


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> the worst of all this is when the cons crash and burn, whether it be next election or the one after, we'll face another, majority of 'oh we wont do that...' only to get more BS.
> 
> No more majorities. It didn't work before, and it certainly isn't with these liars.


In my lifetime, although I was not in Canada at the time, I feel some of the best social legislation was accomplished under the Pearson minority government.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Snicker....
> 
> *


oh you and yer cartoons. You'll get smasher all excited.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> In my lifetime, although I was not in Canada at the time, I feel some of the best social legislation was accomplished under the Pearson minority government.


I agree. I don't think I would have cared much if Harper was kept to a minority. But they were so desperate for absolute power, and their supporters fell for it hook line and sinker. All the cries of how it's gonna be different, they took everyone for suckers.

But that's the way it is under majority governments. We had many previous to see the same nonsense.


----------



## kps

Time to get into today and tomorrow and stop reliving the glory days of the Pearsons, the Douglas', the Diefenbackers, the Laytons, the Mulroneys, etc...

Harper's the best Canada has at the moment. He may be far from perfect, but when compared to the alternative choices....SHUDDER.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Time to get into today and tomorrow and stop reliving the glory days of the Pearsons, the Douglas', the Diefenbackers, the Laytons, the Mulroneys, etc...
> 
> Harper's the best Canada has at the moment. He may be far from perfect, but when compared to the alternative choices....SHUDDER.


it's all relative though eh?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> it's all relative though eh?


Of course...eh? 
.
.
.
.
......but, still.beejacon


----------



## groovetube

boob rae and Nicole whatsHerName?

bah. King of the hill indeed


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> it's all relative though eh?


I believe, the same is said of incest.


----------



## kps

I thought this little satire was going to be a huge Harper bashing article...but it turned out not too bad. LOL



> To tell the truth, I don’t agree with all of Mr. Harper’s policies myself. (e.g., the niqab.) *But it seems obvious to me that his government is far more in touch with mainstream Canadians than all those critics who accuse him of abandoning the mainstream.* He’s worse than an extremist – he’s a populist. Or else he has duped and terrorized the masses so effectively that they are powerless to resist. Kind of like you-know-who.


Is Stephen Harper the Dear Leader in disguise? - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

kps said:


> I thought this little satire was going to be a huge Harper bashing article...but it turned out not too bad. LOL
> 
> Is Stephen Harper the Dear Leader in disguise? - The Globe and Mail


A well written article.


----------



## BigDL

How little will this opinion slow Our Glorious Leader and his Chief Henchman in their quest for control. Discuss!



CBCNews said:


> The Supreme Court of Canada dealt a major blow to the federal government Thursday when it issued an opinion that Ottawa’s effort to create a single Canadian securities regulator is "not valid" under the Constitution.





Supreme Court said:


> "However, as important as the preservation of capital markets and the maintenance of Canada's financial stability are, they do not justify a wholesale takeover of the regulation of the securities industry which is the ultimate consequence of the proposed federal legislation," the opinion, written by the court as a whole, said...
> 
> ...“Canada's problem is that the proposed Act reflects an attempt that goes well beyond these matters of undoubted national interest and concern and reaches down into the detailed regulation of all aspects of securities,”


Flaherty's national securities watchdog dealt court blow


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON rhetorical techniques a la Johnny Baird - don't answer the question*

You Missed The Point, John Baird | Ottawa Citizen

brought to you by:


----------



## i-rui

i love it.

the globe & mail publishes an opinion piece that conservatives disagree with and they dismiss it as not objective and false.

the globe and mail publishes an opinion piece that conservatives like and they fall over themselves espousing how wonderful it is.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> How little will this opinion slow Our Glorious Leader and his Chief Henchman in their quest for control. Discuss!
> 
> Flaherty's national securities watchdog dealt court blow


Unlike your comment, it is a very well written article and balanced. It is interesting that the Court could see the value in the Flaherty proposal but all you can see is quest for control:



> "Canada has shown that aspects of the securities market are national in scope and affect the country as a whole," the opinion said. "However, considered in its entirety, the proposed Act is chiefly directed at protecting investors and ensuring the fairness of capital markets through the day-to-day regulation of issuers and other participants in the securities market."





> The federal government had recognized that securities regulation falls within provincial jurisdiction. But it argued that the securities market has evolved from a provincial matter to a national one affecting the country and its economy as a whole therefore justifying its proposed intervention in regulating securities.
> 
> The court agreed that some aspects of the proposed legislation — such as those aimed at managing systemic risk — are related to the broader national interest and could justify the federal government’s involvement


The court is basically saying the Act has good intentions but technically goes too far and in too detailed a manner into the jurisdiction of the provinces based on constitutional divisions of jurisdictional authority.

Fair enough. It seems the financial sector isn't too dismayed about the opinion... note *opinion* this is not a ruling:



> "A co-operative approach that permits a scheme recognizing the essentially provincial nature of securities regulation while allowing Parliament to deal with genuinely national concerns remains available and is supported by Canadian constitutional principles," the court's opinion stated.
> 
> That *signified a ray of hope for the Canadian Bankers Association's Terry Campbell*, who said *the court recognized there is a federal interest in some areas and that gives him optimism that a single regulator can still be created.*
> 
> "There is more work to be done," said Campbell, who called this a "historic day. "
> 
> He said the principles outlined in the opinion should be used to continue negotiations on setting up a single regulator and that the proposed legislation may have to be redrafted.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i love it.
> 
> the globe & mail publishes an opinion piece that conservatives disagree with and they dismiss it as not objective and false.
> 
> the globe and mail publishes an opinion piece that conservatives like and they fall over themselves espousing how wonderful it is.


There is something surprising in this? Replace conservative with any political party and it would be the same.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Unlike your comment, it is a very well written article and balanced. It is interesting that the Court could see the value in the Flaherty proposal but all you can see is quest for control:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The court is basically saying the Act has good intentions but technically goes too far and in too detailed a manner into the jurisdiction of the provinces based on constitutional divisions of jurisdictional authority.
> 
> Fair enough. It seems the financial sector isn't too dismayed about the opinion... note *opinion* this is not a ruling:


My contention was for discussion, so far I have been successful, thank you for your contribution in my success.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> My contention was for discussion, so far I have been successful, thank you for your contribution in my success.


You're welcome... However, 1 post would not indicate a success as yet IMO... time will tell.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You're welcome... However, 1 post would not indicate a success as yet IMO... time will tell.


"so far" is the optimum phrase here.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> "so far" is the optimum phrase here.


Optimum? Mmm no.... 

optimum |ˈäptəməm|
adjective
most conducive to a favorable outcome; best : the optimum childbearing age.
noun ( pl. -ma |-mə|or -mums )
the most favorable conditions or level for growth, reproduction, or success.

Had you said salient I would agree.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*JC is a a richer man*

Jean Chrétien wins $200K payout from Ottawa - Politics - CBC News

Hey when does former CON PM Mulroney pay back the $2M?

Brought to you by:


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Jean Chrétien wins $200K payout from Ottawa - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Hey when does former CON PM Mulroney pay back the $2M?
> 
> Brought to you by:


When charges are brought against him and he is ordered to do so... Next.









"Arrr... I loves it when I wins.... Arrr..."


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Jean Chrétien wins $200K payout from Ottawa - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Hey when does former CON PM Mulroney pay back the $2M?
> 
> Brought to you by:


You can never expect any Conservative to do anything out of the goodness of their heart.


----------



## groovetube

non-partisan screech in 3... 2... 1...


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> You can never expect any Conservative to do anything out of the goodness of their heart.


Well, expect the unexpected these days, since no one expects .............

The Spanish Inquisition - YouTube


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> You can never expect any Conservative *to do anything out of the goodness of their heart*.


:lmao: And leftists don't need to because the gubiment takes care of that....


----------



## kps

screature said:


> :lmao: And leftists don't need to because the gubiment takes care of that....


...and...a government big enough to give you everything 
you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> ...and...a government big enough to give you everything
> you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.


surely you don't think this a leftist phenomena.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> ...and...a government big enough to give you everything
> you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.


But they want it a little stronger than that, so they can really stick it to the bad guys who drive industry and commerce.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Former CON suing Harper and CONS*

Helena Guergis suing PM Harper and CON party - more to come

Brought to you by -


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Helena Guergis suing PM Harper and CON party - more to come
> 
> Brought to you by -


Linky JNN...? Is this the level of "reporting" that I can expect from your network? If so I for one am not signing up.... Thanks for the free preview. 

How do I unsubscribe or is this a tied subscription? beejacon


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> But they want it a little stronger than that, so they can really stick it to the bad guys who drive industry and commerce.


instead of Conservatives stick it to non-crimanils to have all Conservatives feel safe when they should feel safe because the crime rate is dropping. 

Conservatives haven't any ways or means to pay for the consequences of their ideology because their ideology is concocted of circular logic, the bills go up, charge it, and cut taxes further to pay for it, is the Conservative response.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> instead of Conservatives stick it to non-crimanils to have all Conservatives feel safe when they should feel safe because the crime rate is dropping.
> 
> Conservatives haven't any ways or means to pay for the consequences of their ideology because their ideology is concocted of circular logic, the bills go up, charge it, and cut taxes further to pay for it, is the Conservative response.


let's remember they cut the taxes for the upper brackets.

The rest of the country has to wait til they balance the books. They're laughing as we speak about that one.


----------



## groovetube

Chrétien wins $200,000 in sponsorship feud; PMO demands he give it back - The Globe and Mail



> Mr. Chrétien’s reputation was clearly tarnished by the final report of the Gomery inquiry, which stated he created a program that was secretive and circumvented normal administrative safeguards.


Boy that sounds familiar. Shades of no paper trail teflon tony and his 50 million spending spree.

Oh but that's ok cause he's conservative. It's whining and playing victim when a conservative does it and you point it out, yet not so much when say a liberal does it.

The insanity is astounding. There are those who want good government, and some who are merely satisfied with merely, a conservative government. Or one that -says- they're conservative anyway...


----------



## Sonal

Speaking of lawsuits...

Helena Guergis sues Stephen Harper over ejection from the Tory caucus | News | National Post


----------



## BigDL

Trusting this will suffice. 



jimbotelecom said:


> Helena Guergis suing PM Harper and CON party - more to come
> 
> Brought to you by -





screature said:


> Linky JNN...? Is this the level of "reporting" that I can expect from your network? If so I for one am not signing up.... Thanks for the free preview.
> 
> How do I unsubscribe or is this a tied subscription? beejacon


 Helena Guergis Lawsuit Linky


----------



## jimbotelecom

More on the Guergis lawsuit against Harper and the CONS.

“The defendants engaged in arbitrary, reckless, capricious, malicious, high-handed and arrogant conduct,” says the statement of claim.

Sounds about right in general.

Just to remind everyone Helena was a minister in the minority CON govt married to former deform MP Rizwan Jaffer who lost his Alberta CON riding to the NDP! He was implicated in the busty-hooker-cocaine scandal and unregistered lobbying of the CON government following his loss to the NDP.

Does anyone know who will pick up the legal tab on this? Is this at taxpayer's expense or does it come out of some kind of CON trough?

I hope it's not us poor Canadiens.


----------



## kps

My advice to Helena and Jaffer (for that matter) is.....STFU! 

Better still, STFU and go the [email protected]#* away...sorry but these two do not deserve any "classy" insults.


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> My advice to Helena and Jaffer (for that matter) is.....STFU!
> 
> Better still, STFU and go the [email protected]#* away...sorry but these two do not deserve any "classy" insults.


I guess they're not team players eh. Imagine CONS vs. CONS. Maybe they're trying to do in Harpo like Dalton Camp did in Dief the Chief.

Are they taking donations to their legal fund?


----------



## kps

You're not thinking of donating to this scumbag hoping to uproot Harper...are you? :lmao:

People like her are beyond partisanship or party politics altogether... at any level. Just your run of the mill opportunist dirtbags.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Looks like we'll find out tomorrow if Harper supports polygamy*

Time running out to appeal B.C. polygamy ruling - Winnipeg Free Press

Brought to you by -


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> You're not thinking of donating to this scumbag hoping to uproot Harper...are you? :lmao:
> 
> People like her are beyond partisanship or party politics altogether... at any level. Just your run of the mill opportunist dirtbags.


It's all pretty funny... and doubly amusing to see the JNN taking it seriously.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Trusting this will suffice.
> 
> Helena Guergis Lawsuit Linky


Is BigDL an affiliate station of JNN? If so I guess it doesn't matter which station I tune in to, the programming will be the same.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> You're not thinking of donating to this scumbag hoping to uproot Harper...are you? :lmao:
> 
> People like her are beyond partisanship or party politics altogether... at any level. Just your run of the mill opportunist dirtbags.


You created a monster kps... 

Too bad JNN doesn't realize he jumped for an un-baited hook... I have had plenty of perch do that... Who would have thought that you could catch fish on internet forums the same way?


----------



## groovetube

seems there's a few hooks to go around.

ha ha ha.

nighty.


----------



## BigDL

*Conservatives Unexpectedly Throw a Shiny Ball*

Shockingly and Unexpectedly Conservatives Throw a Shiny Ball after Law Suit Papers were received by many Conservatives as an unsolicited Xmas present for many Canadians.



CBCNews said:


> A spokesman for Prime Minister Stephen Harper said the government was disappointed with the award ruling.
> 
> "It is our belief that the Liberal party must pay back the millions of dollars stolen from taxpayers through the sponsorship scandal," said Carl Vallee.
> 
> "We call on Jean Chrétien to give this $200,000 back to taxpayers on behalf of the Liberal party."


Look Shiny Ball


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Shockingly and Unexpectedly Conservatives Throw a Shiny Ball after Law Suit Papers were received by many Conservatives as an unsolicited Xmas present for many Canadians.


Let's face it.,BigDL--the Conservatives are simply smarter than you are.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Let's face it.,BigDL--the Conservatives are simply smarter than you are.


...but that still makes Conservatives stupider than a three day old goose. :yikes: Not much of an accomplishment when you evaluate it, is it?


----------



## groovetube

here's an example of one of those "smarter conservatives".

"cut his mic! Cut his mic!! arrrggghhhhh!!!!!!

Sex and censorship: Brian Lilley cuts off my mic, and other issues (updated) | Warren Kinsella

conservatives are indeed smarter in that they've learned that all you have to do is smear up enough BS continually, and magically people will believe it.

Just wave your hands furiously and repeat nonsense. Sounds familiar eh?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Here's a link to Guergis's statement of claim. My prediction - out of court settlement.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/279753-statement-of-claim.html

Brought to you by -


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Here's a link to Guergis's statement of claim. My prediction - out of court settlement.
> 
> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/279753-statement-of-claim.html
> 
> Brought to you by -


No way!!!!!!! Guergis shall end up in a Re-education Camp for the Politically Insane as an example not to cross the Harper Government (formerly The Canadian Government).

Well, even CNN gets it wrong every so often ........... they forecast a Hillary Clinton victory in the Democratic primaries.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Here's a link to Guergis's statement of claim. My prediction - out of court settlement.


My prediction: Guergis will either withdraw the suit or lose it.


----------



## kps

Would be interesting to see what Snowdy has on her and will it be allowed in court...if it gets that far. As Jimbo, I'm wondering who's footing the legal bill for her efforts.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS limit payouts to our armed forces vets*

Ottawa takes too-narrow approach to Agent Orange payouts, ombudsman says - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by -


----------



## groovetube

my dad was stationed there when I was about 3-4 at the time. Guess I'll have to wait til I dying of something.


----------



## Macfury

JNN seems to be very confused about the differences between the Public Service and the political affiliation of the government in power.


----------



## groovetube

Cut off his mic!


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Here's a link to Guergis's statement of claim. My prediction - out of court settlement.
> 
> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/279753-statement-of-claim.html
> 
> Brought to you by -


From my reading of the claim it is pretty much going to come down to he said she sad and it will be interesting to see how a judge rules on this. I suspect that all claims will be found to be baseless as conspiracy and defamation are two of the hardest claims to successfully try in court due to their highly subjective nature, i.e. intent has to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt. Time will tell.


----------



## BigDL

Very nice! Trying to raise the bar for friends?

I believe the standard for civil suits remains "On the Balance of Probability," rather than the suggested "...i.e. intent has to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt."

However with Our Glorious Leader's Government ability to defy laws and or well established conventions and whereas Our Glorious Leader and other prominent Conservatives are respondents to a law suit and whereas you work in the environs of Parliament Hill; 

it might well be, the new legal test, for Our Glorious Leader and special prominent Conservatives, who aren't the fall guys, is "...proven beyond a shadow of a doubt"


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Very nice! Trying to raise the bar for friends?
> 
> I believe *the standard for civil suits remains "On the Balance of Probability," rather than the suggested* "...i.e. intent has to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt."
> 
> However with Our Glorious Leader's Government ability to defy laws and or well established conventions and whereas Our Glorious Leader and other prominent Conservatives are respondents to a law suit and whereas you work in the environs of Parliament Hill;
> 
> it might well be, the new legal test, for Our Glorious Leader and special prominent Conservatives, who aren't the fall guys, is "...proven beyond a shadow of a doubt"


Ok if so I stand corrected...

I have a couple of family members who are lawyers and who have told me more than once that conspiracy and defamation are among the hardest of charges to prove because they have to prove intent... if as you say the standard in civil suits is On the Balance of Probability as opposed to beyond a shadow of a doubt, thank you for the technical clarification...

As for the rest of your post... chip on shoulder much and what the hell are you talking about??? 

I mean seriously....


----------



## jimbotelecom

When CONS were civil - RIP Jean Cassleman Wadds

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20111223.OBWADDSATL/BDAStory/BDA/deaths


----------



## groovetube

there was a a time when cons were indeed civil. Did you see that video of that Brian Lilly character I posted hollering to shut the liberal's mic off because he didn't like it when he was told his facts were wrong?

That prety much sums up the behaviour of many cons I see now.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark




----------



## groovetube

ah yes, captain transparency who yelled and screamed about the liberal patronage and entitlements.

Only to laugh in the faces of his supporters afterwards.


----------



## BigDL

That's just how government works. Harper had all good intentions, just like that HOPE and CHANGE guy. 

You remember, geez I hate these senior's moments! 

Anyway it not the system it's the people any rugged individualist could tell you that. If you like them, all can be forgiven, and if you don't well pillory them.


----------



## groovetube

your guy is a criminal because he did [x], but my guy who also did [x] had a good reason for it and besides the other did it too, and because shut up.

Such is the responses from the high and mighty honest, open, accountable new conservatives.

who'd a thunk it?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Looks like they had to send along chaperones (GG and Head of DND) to make sure McKay didn't stop over in Paris and charge CDN taxpayers thousands of $ in accommodations and food, etc.

Governor-General, MacKay visit Canadians abroad over Christmas - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by -


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Looks like they had to send along chaperones (GG and Head of DND) to make sure McKay didn't stop over in Paris and charge CDN taxpayers thousands of $ in accommodations and food, etc.
> 
> Governor-General, MacKay visit Canadians abroad over Christmas - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Brought to you by -


----------



## Macfury

I love this. The JNN network logo means either:

* The story is days old
* It is a story so picayune as to be meaningless.

Thanks JNN!


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Looks like they had to send along chaperones (GG and Head of DND) to make sure McKay didn't stop over in Paris and charge CDN taxpayers thousands of $ in accommodations and food, etc.
> 
> Governor-General, MacKay visit Canadians abroad over Christmas - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Brought to you by -


i think the jnn thing, is totally working. Brilliant.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I love this. The JNN network logo means either:
> 
> * The story is days old
> * It is a story so picayune as to be meaningless.
> 
> Thanks JNN!


Hate the logo ............ but love the network and the person. Paix, mon ami.

This Is Cnn Sound Clip and Quote


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> Looks like they had to send along chaperones (GG and Head of DND) to make sure McKay didn't stop over in Paris and charge CDN taxpayers thousands of $ in accommodations and food, etc.
> 
> Governor-General, MacKay visit Canadians abroad over Christmas - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Brought to you by -


Nice to see McKay and the GG giving up their Christmas for our Canadian troops. That's honourable. Sadly one can't say the same thing for you chitting on them for doing so though.


----------



## groovetube

Let's not forget liberal Bob Rae.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Nice to see McKay and the GG giving up their Christmas for our Canadian troops. That's honourable. Sadly one can't say the same thing for you chitting on them for doing so though.


Most people go to work everyday and it's not news. 

These guys go to work so seldom, for when they do some duty required of them or other, for some it's a huge event, apparently.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Thanks boyz. I can't take credit for the logo as it was designed by a member of the loyal opposition on this thread.

As for the "chitty" comment, I was simply having a little fun at the expense of Mckay given his proclivaty for being a tad loose spending our tax dollars. I thought this is something you laissez-faire types might relate to. Alas I gave you too much credit.

It's been a wild and zany 2011. Looking forward to more fun, games, and further obfuscation in 2012.

Cheers!


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Thanks boyz. I can't take credit for the logo as it was designed by a member of the loyal opposition on this thread.
> 
> As for the "chitty" comment, I was simply having a little fun at the expense of Mckay given his proclivaty for being a tad loose spending our tax dollars. I thought this is something you laissez-faire types might relate to. Alas I gave you too much credit.
> 
> It's been a wild and zany 2011. Looking forward to more fun, games, and further obfuscation in 2012.
> 
> Cheers!


Where's that dang LIKE button again?


----------



## groovetube

oh it's just the first year of the 'strong, stable' majority'. I think a real safe prediction is that phrase will go the way of 'open, honest and accountable'.

2012 will be a real, interesting year.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Most people go to work everyday and it's not news.
> 
> *These guys go to work so seldom*, for when they do some duty required of them or other, for some it's a huge event, apparently.


You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.. your ignorance of the facts is astounding. And no most people go to work 5 days a week 8 hours a day... "these guys" are on the job more than any other segment of society that I know... now if you actually had something factual to say your posts may have some relevance but until they do, again your apparently wilful ignorance is astounding.... well maybe not actually, just typical of cranky curmudgeons with plenty of time on their hands to deride those who work harder than they could ever possibly imagine.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.. your ignorance of the facts is astounding.


This is the result of bigness, filtered through socialism, filtered through unionism. It's not much, but there you have it.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Thanks boyz. I can't take credit for the logo as it was designed by a member of the loyal opposition on this thread.
> 
> As for the "chitty" comment, I was simply having a little fun at the expense of Mckay *given his proclivaty for being a tad loose spending our tax dollars.* I thought this is something you laissez-faire types might relate to. Alas I gave you too much credit.
> 
> It's been a wild and zany 2011. Looking forward to more fun, games, and further obfuscation in 2012.
> 
> Cheers!


Use of government aircraft is down significantly (30%) over the previous administration... seems that fact is lost on you.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.. your ignorance of the facts is astounding.


I love these responses. I've seen this very one so many times from screature, he must have that one on speed dial.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Use of government aircraft is down significantly (30%) over the previous administration... seems that fact is lost on you.


Ah, conservative talking points. The last refuge of the hard core conservative supporter! Shiny ball!

Since we're talking about... Peter McKay, this G&M article reports McKay has used more than the previous governments Lawrence Canon.
MacKay racks up nearly $3-million in flights on VIP jets - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Use of government aircraft is down significantly (30%) over the previous administration... seems that fact is lost on you.


Heaven help these guys, picking the low hanging fruit from GoogleNews alerts. Years ago they would have been quiet, because they would actually have had to read the papers and extract clippings. Too much work.

They'll quiet down again in 10 years or so, when a Liberal government has another shot at it--or not.


----------



## screature

> Per-hour flight expense costs provided by the military indicate the 35 flights cost Ottawa more than $2.9-million.
> 
> *The Canadian Forces adds, however, that these estimates include fixed expenses that account for 75 per cent of the bill.*
> 
> Jay Paxton, a spokesman for Mr. MacKay, released a statement saying: “In approximately 50 per cent of the total Challenger flights Minister MacKay has taken, he has taken these flights to attend the repatriation of fallen military personnel.”
> 
> Records show, however, that of the 35 flights Mr. MacKay’s office requested since September, 2007, only nine were to attend to return of soldiers’ remains to Canada.
> 
> Mr. Paxton said Mr. MacKay only used Challengers where commercial travel was “not feasible” and where the jets could help cut down the cost of conducting government business.
> 
> He said overall *ministerial travel on the jets is down more than 80 per cent from the final years of the former Liberal government.*


The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

more conservative talking points.

When in doubt, throw lots of other points in other directions. Since we -were- talking about Peter McKay, it still remains that according to the article I posted, he spent MORE than the previous liberal defence minister. Not 30% less.

It's like saying, well yeah the government MP was corrupt, but hey, the other MPs were less corrupt than the previous government MPs, so that makes it ok.

Nice try.



> No other Tory politician aside from Stephen Harper has accumulated as much time on the VIP jets since Mr. MacKay took over the defence portfolio in the late summer of 2007. *Not former foreign affairs minister Lawrence Cannon* or Ottawa’s jet-setting Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, who frequently travels abroad for economic meetings.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Heaven help these guys, picking the low hanging fruit from GoogleNews alerts. Years ago they would have been quiet, because they would actually have had to read the papers and extract clippings. Too much work.
> 
> They'll quiet down again in 10 years or so, when a Liberal government has another shot at it--or not.


You mean how y'all suddenly got real quiet during this government's obvious misdeeds?

Right.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> He said overall ministerial travel on the jets is down more than 80 per cent from the final years of the former Liberal government.


You're not allowed to compare the record of the Conservatives to the "Holy Ones."


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You're not allowed to compare the record of the Conservatives tot he "Holy Ones."


awwww, playin the victim again eh?


----------



## i-rui

> *Jay Paxton, a spokesman for Mr. MacKay*, released a statement saying: “In approximately 50 per cent of the total Challenger flights Minister MacKay has taken, he has taken these flights to attend the repatriation of fallen military personnel.”


so we're supposed to trust what MacKay's spokesmen says?



> He said overall ministerial travel on the jets is down more than 80 per cent from the final years of the former Liberal government.


i'd like to see the breakdown of the numbers. I have a feeling they're fudging something to deflect from the current hubbub. Hard to take anything Jay Paxton says seriously when you read this :



> Jay Paxton, a spokesman for Mr. MacKay, released a statement saying: “*In approximately 50 per cent* of the total Challenger flights Minister MacKay has taken, he has taken these flights to attend the repatriation of fallen military personnel.”
> 
> Records show, however, that of the *35 flights* Mr. MacKay’s office requested since September, 2007, only *nine* were to attend to return of soldiers’ remains to Canada.


so 9 is "approximately" 50% of 35?

wow.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> so we're supposed to trust what MacKay's spokesmen says?
> 
> i'd like to see the breakdown of the numbers. I have a feeling they're fudging something to deflect from the current hubbub. Hard to take anything Jay Paxton says seriously when you read this :
> 
> so 9 is "approximately" 50% of 35?
> 
> wow.


I'd like to see the "records" as well and I take what Jay Paxton says with equal authority as a reporter who doesn't link to the so called records. Not much credibility there... even then it doesn't change the fact that:



> The Canadian Forces adds, however, that these estimates include fixed expenses that account for *75 per cent of the bill.*


and



> ministerial travel on the jets is *down more than 80 per cent *from the final years of the former Liberal government.


Claims which were not refuted in the article.


----------



## eMacMan

I have a big problem with the attitude: "It's wrong for the other guy but OK for my guy."

Let's face it whether we talk white with black stripes or black with white stripes. A skunk is a skunk, and smells the same no matter the name.


----------



## kps

eMacMan said:


> I have a big problem with the attitude: "It's wrong for the other guy but OK for my guy."
> 
> Let's face it whether we talk white with black stripes or black with white stripes.* A skunk is a skunk, and smells the same no matter the name*.


I'd agree with that, but some skunks get spooked easily and spray more than others and I've been sprayed by spooked nanny state Liberal skunks more than Conservative skunks. So I'd rather tolerate the smell of skunks with a better degree of spray sack control.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> I have a big problem with the attitude: "It's wrong for the other guy but OK for my guy."
> 
> Let's face it whether we talk white with black stripes or black with white stripes. A skunk is a skunk, and smells the same no matter the name.


I've said this over and over. But as you can clearly see, often those who bill themselves as 'captain non partisans' and will get hepped up the minute they think anyone is being partisan (remember the more partisan than thous threads/ yeah...) will leap to the defence of their fav party.

Witness not ONE conservative supporter who were so vocal, 'playing the victim' as macfury sees it, are suddenly silent and ultra defensive!

Priceless I'd say.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I'd agree with that, but some skunks get spooked easily and spray more than others and I've been sprayed by spooked nanny state Liberal skunks more than Conservative skunks. So I'd rather tolerate the smell of skunks with a better degree of spray sack control.


that's because you've been told, that the conservatives are less nanny state.

You silly goose. Look behind the curtain...

heh heh heh... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> I'd agree with that, but some skunks get spooked easily and spray more than others and I've been sprayed by spooked nanny state Liberal skunks more than Conservative skunks. So I'd rather tolerate the smell of skunks with a better degree of spray sack control.


Well said. Some of the folks here have had their nose on the scent glands of the stinky variety so long, they think it's fresh air.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> that's because you've been told, that the conservatives are less nanny state.
> 
> You silly goose. Look behind the curtain...
> 
> heh heh heh... :lmao:


I'm glad you're tolerant of the Liberal skunk smell, Groove. I can't get used to it, even as I drive by a fresh Lib skunk's roadkill...it drives me crazy


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I have a big problem with the attitude: "It's wrong for the other guy but OK for my guy."
> 
> Let's face it whether we talk white with black stripes or black with white stripes. A skunk is a skunk, and smells the same no matter the name.


It's only Ok becuase "my guy" has spent less.. it's an improvement at least...

Kinda like the Cons record on the environment and why they opted out of Kyoto... Some think it is better to sign onto an agreement that you have no intention of honouring and then doing exactly the opposite as opposed to opting out of a bad deal and work on one that is fair and equitable and then maybe actually doing what the agreement says...

Some would rather be realistic and honest as opposed to being a delusional hypocrite and a liar.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I'm glad you're tolerant of the Liberal skunk smell, Groove. I can't get used to it, even as I drive by a fresh Lib skunk's roadkill...it drives me crazy


I wasn't, I hadn't voted for them in years. Unlike the cons, who'll vote for the liars and cheaters no matter how many times they get reamed. 



over to you. heh heh.

Oh look it's trying to tell us this government is 'honest'!^^^ :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It's only Ok becuase "my guy" has spent less.. it's an improvement at least...
> 
> Kinda like the Cons record on the environment and why they opted out of Kyoto... Some think it is better to sign onto an agreement that you have no intention of honouring and then doing exactly the opposite as opposed to opting out of a bad deal and work on one that is fair and equitable and then maybe actually doing what the agreement says...
> 
> Some would rather be realistic and honest as opposed to being a delusional hypocrite and a liar.


NO! Your guy has racked up much bigger deficits. He is also funneling big money to the MIC. If you wanna argue that your skunk eats more rodents than the other guys skunk that's fine but I see no evidence of that. Even so the stench is the same and parliament is still over run by rats.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I wasn't, I hadn't voted for them in years. Unlike the cons, who'll vote for the liars and cheaters no matter how many times they get reamed.


Oh my...it's worse than I thought. You have a NDP skunk with full massive incontinence living under your porch. That's not uncommon in those neighbourhoods of Toronto you live in. Call a professional Groove, all will be well.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> It's only Ok becuase "my guy" has spent less.. it's an improvement at least...
> 
> Kinda like the Cons record on the environment and why they opted out of Kyoto... Some think it is better to sign onto an agreement that you have no intention of honouring and then doing exactly the opposite as opposed to opting out of a bad deal and work on one that is fair and equitable and then maybe actually doing what the agreement says...
> 
> Some would rather be realistic and honest as opposed to being a delusional hypocrite and a liar.


If the new green policy is to sign onto unadulterated equine manure, it's still 100% horse$h!t and stinks mightily until well rotted.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> I'm glad you're tolerant of the Liberal skunk smell, Groove. I can't get used to it, even as I drive by a fresh Lib skunk's roadkill...it drives me crazy


Just in response to your sig kps



> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin





> He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day.
> Prov.
> 
> Interpretation:
> 
> It may be cowardly to run away from a fight, but running away gives you a better chance of surviving to fight again when the odds are more in your favour.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> If the new green policy is to sign onto unadulterated equine manure, it's still 100% horse$h!t and stinks mightily until well rotted.


Now there is a well reasoned and elucidated response.... I now think I may know what BigDL may stand for....

BTW What really stinks is pig s**t if you have any agrarian experience you would know, and we are still trying to get that stink out of the sheets form 12 consecutive years of Chretien/Martin rule.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Just in response to your sig kps


did the passive aggressive hit and run artist just do that?

Yeah I think he did. LOL


----------



## kps

screature said:


> Just in response to your sig kps





> He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day.
> Prov.


If you actually *fight*...and then run away, isn't that called a strategic retreat?

Now if you just run away at the thought of a fight, well then that's a whole different issue.:baby:


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> If you actually *fight*...and then run away, isn't that called a strategic retreat?
> 
> Now if you just run away at the thought of a fight, well then that's a whole different issue.:baby:


yep


----------



## MacDoc

> 12 consecutive years of Chretien/Martin rule.


you mean the one that left Canada's finances and banks the best in the world......???

funny that your olfactory perception is so flawed.....
that you can't even smell Harper's ripe offerings....

hell in a hand basket......must be tar sands effluent clogging the right wingers nasal passages en masse...


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> ....must be tar sands effluent clogging the right wingers nasal passages en masse...


If it weren't for the oil sands, Canada's economy would be in hell.


----------



## groovetube

and Harper built that right?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> If it weren't for the oil sands, Canada's economy would be in hell.


How does the tar sands explain Saskatchewan's growth and prosperity?...Bueller?....Anyone?


----------



## Macfury

More dirty resources. However, the oil sands lubricates the entire economy.


----------



## groovetube

I wouldn't underestimate the contribution the oil sands makes, but to suggest our economy is that dependant on the oil sands is ludicrous. Not only that, it's unbelievably brainless to steer this country in that kind of a corner.

However, there seems to be plenty, of lemmings around to follow 'the leader'.


----------



## MacDoc

He's never heard of Dutch disease and we've got a good case thanks to Harper.
Subsidizes oil instead of taxlng the crap out of it the way Norway has done for two decades.

See they still have a manufacturing centre - we don't


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> He's never heard of Dutch disease and we've got a good case thanks to Harper.
> Subsidizes oil instead of taxlng the crap out of it the way Norway has done for two decades.
> 
> See they still have a manufacturing centre - we don't



That's why Norwegians have little disposable income. They can't even buy their own manufactured goods.


----------



## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> He's never heard of Dutch disease and we've got a good case thanks to Harper.
> Subsidizes oil instead of taxlng the crap out of it the way Norway has done for two decades.
> 
> See they still have a manufacturing centre - we don't


That's because this governments primary focus is the oil patch. It has been from the beginning.

The west wanted in. Screw the rest of us.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## screature

kps said:


> If you actually *fight*...and then run away, isn't that called a strategic retreat?
> 
> *Now if you just run away at the thought of a fight, well then that's a whole different issue.*:baby:


True enough... not quite sure why the :baby: was necessary.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


>


Harper is taking money from Ontario?


----------



## kps

screature said:


> True enough... not quite sure why the :baby: was necessary.


It's called injecting a bit of humour... <--like that.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> It's called injecting a bit of humour... <--like that.


Ok... I just wasn't sure if it was being directed at me, as usually that emoticon is used derisively. I figured it was directed toward those who would run away from a fight before they even had engaged in one, but I was unclear. That is why I asked. 

But if it was directed at me... well then, "Huston we have a problem".


----------



## kps

screature said:


> But if it was directed at me... well then, "Huston we have a problem".


Not in the least. 

Trust me, I never get too personal on ehMac, although I have been known to throw a cheap shot the odd time...just for effect, mind you, never to get personal.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> Not in the least.
> 
> Trust me, I never get too personal on ehMac, although I have been known to throw a cheap shot the odd time...just for effect, mind you, never to get personal.


Great! 

In keeping with the season, peace be unto you and glad tidings....


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Not in the least.
> 
> Trust me, I never get too personal on ehMac, although I have been known to throw a cheap shot the odd time...just for effect, mind you, never to get personal.


except if you try to take away his beer glass. All bets are off. 

smilie--> :lmao:


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> except if you try to take away his beer glass. All bets are off.
> 
> smilie--> :lmao:


Cheers!


----------



## groovetube

Due for another round'o pints sometime.


----------



## kps

Yuppers....

I'm due for another bout of radiation in January, so after that, health permitting. Should get hold of Max too.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> Yuppers....
> 
> I'm due for another bout of radiation in January, so after that, health permitting. Should get hold of Max too.


Good luck with that!


----------



## kps

eMacMan said:


> Good luck with that!


Thanks!


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Yuppers....
> 
> I'm due for another bout of radiation in January, so after that, health permitting. Should get hold of Max too.


Good luck indeed kps, I will certainly be glad to enjoy another pint soon. Or hey a glass of tea would suffice! Hope everything goes well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS reverse course on Agent Orange victim's compensation*

Ottawa reverses rejection of dozens of Agent Orange claims after outcry - The Globe and Mail

Must be the Christmas spirit.

Brought to you by JNN (uncovering chit one piece at a time)


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Ottawa reverses rejection of dozens of Agent Orange claims after outcry - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Must be the Christmas spirit.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN (uncovering chit one piece at a time)


This is good news isn't it and no you aren't uncovering anything just linking to articles...  Unless this is the "new" journalism... you don't have to do any research or write anything, just suck off of the teat of those who do... Makes me think of Julian Assange and Wikileaks... or more properly Wikileeches.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS making laws illegally*

Does it matter if our laws are passed illegally? - The Globe and Mail

brought to you by JNN (uncovering chit one piece at a time)


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Does it matter if our laws are passed illegally? - The Globe and Mail
> 
> brought to you by JNN (uncovering chit one piece at a time)


The law was passed legally the only question is whether or not it was introduced legally... time will tell. You would think a professor emeritus would know the difference... guess he just needed a few extra bucks to write the story.


----------



## SINC

The point is they could have stopped to repeal the act first and then passed it to satisfy learned profs, but even if they did, the law would be the same as it is today. An old and tired system modernized to fit the current Canada, as it should be.



> *The bitching about the gun registry is just a display of sour grapes by people who can’t accept that one of their pet policies has been a failure.* The registry was never more than a very expensive example of show over substance. It achieved little if anything to stop nutbars from getting guns and using them, which was the intent, while imposing unnecessary costs and restrictions on law-abiding citizens who were never a threat in the first place.
> 
> *As they did with the wheat board, the government made no secret of its plan to put an end to the waste, and was elected in full knowledge of that.* Beefing about it now is to complain about politicians keeping a promise. *The same argument applies to the government’s harshly realistic approach to the environment:* In an admirably candid year-end interview,* Mr. Harper pointed out that Canada is simply too small a player to make much impact on its own, and pretending otherwise is just likely to sentence us to extensive sacrifices for little practical purpose.


Stephen Harper isn't changing Canada. He's demonstrating that Canada has changed | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## jimbotelecom

One might check Peter Russell's credentials before questioning his article. But hey, who am I to give advice?


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> One might check Peter Russell's credentials before questioning his article. But hey, who am I to give advice?


You mean to tell us he is _not_ "learned" as I presumed?


----------



## i-rui

facts, rules, laws.

conservatives don't give a chit about that stuff....


----------



## jimbotelecom

OGL's elevation of the monarchy receiving some international attention. Some of the comments that follow this blog are priceless.
Harper Save the Queen - NYTimes.com


----------



## Macfury

I think Stephen Harper's own summation of 2011 encapsulates the year in Canadian politics pretty well:



> Prime Minister Harper highlights government’s 2011 aCHIEVEments
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement highlighting some of the Government’s significant accomplishments in 2011:
> 
> “2011 was a momentous year for Canada both at home and abroad.
> 
> “Global economic uncertainty continued to create challenging conditions in 2011. Our Government remained focused on jobs and growth and continued to implement our Economic Action Plan.
> 
> “The results have truly been impressive. Canada is posting the highest number of jobs created in the G-7 this year; Forbes magazine ranked Canada the number one country to conduct business; we’ve been praised as a country with the soundest banking system; and our economic growth is forecasted to be the strongest of the G-7 countries in 2012. All this has been accomplished while reducing the country’s deficit.
> 
> “Our Government has also taken important steps over the past year to help hard-working families. This includes an increase to the Guaranteed Income Supplement announced in Budget 2011 to help hundreds of thousands of seniors make ends meet, additional support for Canadians taking care of infirm dependent relatives, and a tax break that will make it more affordable for children to pursue artistic, cultural, recreational and developmental activities.
> 
> “Important strides were also taken in 2011 to make neighbourhoods and streets across our country safer. We introduced or passed bills to reduce crime and terrorism, provide greater support and protection for victims of crime, get tougher on murderers and those who would sexually exploit children, and allow Canadians to more easily defend themselves and their property against criminals. And we are delivering on our promise to pass the Safe Streets and Communities Act during the first 100 sitting days of Parliament.
> 
> “Our Government has followed through on our commitments by ending the wasteful and ineffective long-gun registry, ending the Canadian Wheat Board monopoly, and giving western farmers the freedom to sell wheat and barley on the open market. We have introduced Bills to ensure fair representation in the House of Commons and make the Senate more democratic, accountable and representative.
> 
> “Internationally we have also accomplished much this past year towards making the world – including Canada – a better place. Building on its important experience and investments in Afghanistan, Canada, along with other NATO allies, continued to make important contributions towards making that country more secure, stable, and self-sufficient. We also played a significant role in defending civilians in Libya against the now defeated Gaddafi regime. Along with other members of the international community, Canada imposed sanctions on North Korea, Syria, Libya and Iran to encourage their adherence to international laws.
> 
> “Ambitious agreements were also concluded with the U.S. on perimeter security and economic competitiveness, as well as on regulatory cooperation. These agreements create a new, modern border, and represent the most significant steps forward in Canada-U.S. cooperation since the North American Free Trade Agreement.
> 
> “Here at home, Canada was delighted to host the Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge this past summer. And in the coming year, Canadians will have the opportunity to celebrate our proud heritage by participating in celebrations across the country marking both The Queen’s Diamond Jubilee and the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812.”
> 
> “Our Government was deeply honoured to be given a Parliamentary majority by Canadians in the May federal elections and will do its utmost to make Canada as prosperous, united and strong.”


A happy and prosperous New Year to all EhMac members, even those who inadvertently seek to destroy the Canadian economy through their backwards "progressive" thinking!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I think Stephen Harper's own summation of 2011 encapsulates the year in Canadian politics pretty well:
> 
> 
> 
> A happy and prosperous New Year to all EhMac members, even those who inadvertently seek to destroy the Canadian economy through their backwards "progressive" thinking!


Same to you, Macfury. May this new year also bring about some peace and good health for all ehMacLanders. 

As for the Canadian economy, the sooner these so called "progressives" you speak of are either sent out of the country or placed in "re-education camps", the stronger our economy shall become, which shall usher in a new era of prosperity under more and more Harper Government of Canada Conservative majorities. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> As for the Canadian economy, the sooner these so called "progressives" you speak of are either sent out of the country or placed in "re-education camps", the stronger our economy shall become, which shall usher in a new era of prosperity under more and more Harper Government of Canada Conservative majorities. We shall see.


Thankfully, the strength the Canadian economy is enough to support the progressives, as they cling like fleas to its back. The best I can hope for them is that in 2012 they divest themselves of the illusion that they're driving the dog.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Thankfully, the strength the Canadian economy is enough to support the progressives, as they cling like fleas to its back. The best I can hope for them is that in 2012 they divest themselves of the illusion that they're driving the dog.


As one who owns dogs, when a dog gets fleas you rid the dog of these fleas or they infest everything they touch. Better to do away with all progressive fleas and let the Canadian dog seek out new bones upon which to build this great country.

The business of Canada is business.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Robbie Burns - To A Louse

Ha! Whare ye gaun, ye crowlin ferlie? 
Your impudence protects you sairly, 
I canna say but ye strut rarely 
Owre gauze and lace, 
Tho' faith! I fear ye dine but sparely 
On sic a place.

Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner, 
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an' sinner, 
How daur ye set your fit upon her -- 
Sae fine a lady! 
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On some poor body.

Swith! in some beggar's hauffet squattle: 
There you may creep, and sprawl, and spr
Wi' ither kindred, jumping cattle, 
In shoals and nations; 
Whare horn nor bane ne'er daur unsettle 
Your thick plantations.

Now haud you there! ye're out o' sight, 
Below the fatt'rils, snug an' tight; 
Na, faith ye yet! ye'll no be right, 
Till ye've got on it --- 
The vera tapmost, tow'ring height 
O' miss's bonnet.

My sooth! right bauld ye set your nose ou
As plump an' grey as onie grozet: 
O for some rank, mercurial rozet, 
Or fell, red smeddum, 
I'd gie ye sic a hearty dose o't, 
Wad dress your droddum!

I wad na been surpris'd to spy 
You on an auld wife's flainen toy: 
Or aiblins some bit duddie boy, 
On's wyliecoat; 
But Miss's fine Lunardi! fye! 
How daur ye do't.

O Jenny, dinna toss your head, 
An' set your beauties a' abread! 
You little ken what cursed speed 
The blastie's makin! 
Thae winks an' finger-ends, I dread, 
Are notice takin'!

O wad some Power the giftie gie us 
To see oursels as ithers see us! 
It wad frae monie a blunder free us, 
An' foolish notion: 
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us, 
An' ev'n devotion!

Ha! Where are you going, you crawling wonder?
Your impudence protects you sorely,
I can not say but you swagger rarely
Over gauze and lace,
Though faith! I fear you dine but sparingly
On such a place

You ugly, creeping, blasted wonder,
Detested, shunned by saint and sinner,
How dare you set your foot upon her -
Such fine a lady!
Go somewhere else and seek your dinner
On some poor body

Off! in some beggar's temples squat:
There you may creep, and sprawl, and scramble,
With other kindred, jumping cattle,
In shoals and nations;
Where horn nor bone never dare unsettle
Your thick plantations

Now hold you there! you are out of sight,
Below the falderals, snug and tight;
No, faith you yet! you will not be right,
Until you have got on it ---
The very topmost, towering height
Of misses bonnet.

My sooth! right bold you set your nose out,
As plump and gray as any gooseberry:
O for some rank, mercurial resin,
Or deadly, red powder,
I would give you such a hearty dose of it,
Would dress your breech!

I would not have been surprised to spy
You on an old wife's flannel cap:
Or maybe some small ragged boy,
On his undervest;
But Miss's fine balloon bonnet! fye!
How dare you do it.

O Jenny do not toss your head,
And set your beauties all abroad!
You little know what cursed speed
The blastie's making!
Those winks and finger-ends, I dread,
Are notice takiing!

O would some Power the gift to give us
To see ourselves as others see us!
It would from many a blunder free us,
And foolish notion:
What airs in dress and gait would leave us,
And even devotion!


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Thankfully, the strength the Canadian economy is enough to support the progressives, as they cling like fleas to its back. The best I can hope for them is that in 2012 they divest themselves of the illusion that they're driving the dog.


Perhaps but not strong enough to support the upcoming Canadian participation in US led invasions into Syria, Iran and Pakistan.

War is expensive and only the banksters and MIC profit.


----------



## Dr.G.

"O would some Power the gift to give us
To see ourselves as others see us!"

Very true, jimbotelecom. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

*Does it matter if our laws are passed illegally?*



> On Dec. 15, the Governor-General gave royal assent to Bill C-18. This means that the Marketing Freedom for Grain Farmers Act, the legislation that ends the Wheat Board’s monopoly of wheat and barley sales, is now the law of Canada – or is it?
> 
> The question arises because on Dec. 7, Federal Court judge Douglas Campbell ruled that the way Bill C-18 was introduced into Parliament violated the Canadian Wheat Board Act. Section 47 of the act requires that the Minister of Agriculture not introduce in Parliament a bill that would end the Wheat Board’s control of all wheat or barley sales without first consulting the board and holding a vote to determine whether farmers favour such a change.





> The government could have avoided this issue by asking Parliament to repeal the entire Wheat Board Act, or at least Section 47. Instead, it took the position that it did not have to comply with the act’s requirements because one Parliament cannot bind another. So, in its view, it could simply ignore legislation passed by a previous Parliament.





> In placing Section 47 in the Wheat Board Act, Canada’s 36th Parliament made a commitment to grain growers that it would not consider changing the rules for marketing their crops without their consent. To hold that such a promise means nothing once another party has a majority in the House of Commons is to deny Parliament the capacity to make such commitments to citizens whose interests are so directly affected by legislation.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *Does it matter if our laws are passed illegally?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


I guess you missed it when it was posted yesterday CM:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-180.html#post1156987


----------



## CubaMark

Oopsie. Sorry - hard to weed out the actual content of this thread from all of the drinking and diatribes...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Oopsie. Sorry - hard to weed out the actual content of this thread from all of the drinking and diatribes...


Really?!! Are you including yourself in that mix seeing as you were the one to make the error!!

What a highbrow response and very uncalled for!!

Nice...  as we usher in a New Year... so can we expect more of this from CM in the year ahead?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Oopsie. Sorry - hard to weed out the actual content of this thread from all of the drinking and diatribes...


Stop your drinking and diatribes and you'll find it a little easier.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *Does it matter if our laws are passed illegally?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


How bad of you CM 

Re-intorducing opinion is just that opinion. Never mind other are free to provide the counter opinin with impunity, ad nauseum. 



screature said:


> The law was passed legally the only question is whether or not it was introduced legally... time will tell. You would think a professor emeritus would know the difference... guess he just needed a few extra bucks to write the story.


Needless to say the good Professor Emeritus should make a cogent argument. He may be called as an expert witness, so his opinion does carry some weight. 

Some of his books

Remember he is Peter H. Russell not just some guy on the internet with only one thing...

...or confused with, Russell Peters





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Needless to say the good Professor Emeritus should make a cogent argument. He may be called as an expert witness, so his opinion does carry some weight.
> 
> Remember he is Peter H. Russell not just some guy on the internet with only one thing...


Meh. He is only one man with one opinion that has no more or less weight than any poster here. Even supposedly bright people can be wrong.


----------



## Macfury

screature: I believe the distinction you make is beyond these soldiers of orange.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> screature: I believe the distinction you make is beyond these soldiers of orange.


Yeah, it even confused poor old Peter H. Russell.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yeah, it even confused poor old Peter H. Russell.


Exactly. When he says:



> In placing Section 47 in the Wheat Board Act, Canada’s 36th Parliament made a commitment to grain growers that it would not consider changing the rules for marketing their crops without their consent. To hold that such a promise means nothing once another party has a majority in the House of Commons is to deny Parliament the capacity to make such commitments to citizens whose interests are so directly affected by legislation.


He believes he's making an ominous point, instead of making a cogent argument in favour of the Conservative opinion. Parliament should not hand over its power to legislate to citizens group who might benefit from usurping Parliament's right to make laws.


----------



## BigDL

Happy New Year!

JOBS, JOBS, JOBS in 2012, with Conservative fiscal policies, Happy Days are Here Again. Let the bells ring out and the banners fly.

Corporate Tax cuts are in effect, PROSPERITY FOR ALL.

Just don't pay any attention to your pay stub you're better off, you'll see. 

You have Our Glorious Leader's word on the matter, or at least the Chief Munchkin's vow.


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, a great way to start the new year with even more cynicism than last year. Happy Grinching to you too.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Ah yes, a great way to start the new year with even more cynicism than last year. Happy Grinching to you too.


BigDL is a citizen of Mouseland, therefore he is a mouse not a man. You can't kill his mouse-sized ideas--but nobody will listen to them either.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Bye-Bye 2011*

Bye-Bye is an annual event on Radio Canada. No one is sparred.

My favourite skits this year are Montreal falling apart, Elvis Gratton and Harper, and NPD Bootcamp. I don't think your command of French has to be perfect to enjoy.

bye bye 2011 - YouTube


----------



## SINC

With no command of French whatsoever, there is no joy.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> With no command of French whatsoever, there is no joy.


Not only do I lack COF but fail at following it as well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/n...o-caterpillar-lock-out-more-than-1000-workers


----------



## Macfury

Makes no sense. The government doesn't set the wages of the private sector.


----------



## SINC

What a sad attempt to link the P{M to something he has nothing to do with. Poor confused people.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> What a sad attempt to link the P{M to something he has nothing to do with. Poor confused people.


Good Governance?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yup OGL just happened to tour the London factory looking for votes from saps back in the minority days. Gee I wonder how they feel about OGL now?


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Yup OGL just happened to tour the London factory looking for votes from saps back in the minority days. Gee I wonder how they feel about OGL now?


Who thought these workers would have voted for him just because he toured? Why would they have changed their minds about him in any way? Lame!


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Who thought these workers would have voted for him just because he toured? Why would they have changed their minds about him in any way? Lame!


What in the name of all that is good or holy does this comment mean?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Yup OGL just happened to tour the London factory looking for votes from saps back in the minority days. Gee I wonder how they feel about OGL now?


What the hell does this have to do with the government???


----------



## jimbotelecom

*hic...CON defection to "Civil" Lib...hic...Party*

Peter Goldring becomes Civil Libertarian after leaving Tories | News | National Post

Brought to you by JNN -uncovering hics..er I mean chit one piece at a time.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> What the hell does this have to do with the government???


Might be the public money that went to the business, announced at OGL's Photo Op?

Might have to do with why wasn't the public's interests protected before pork barreling our tax money to campaign on?

Might be OGL's failure to protect Canadian interests with foreign investment but with the lack of clarity and openness form OGL and his Merry Ministers do we or will we ever know?


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> Might be the public money that went to the business, announced at OGL's Photo Op?
> 
> Might have to do with why wasn't the public's interests protected before pork barreling our tax money to campaign on?
> 
> Might be OGL's failure to protect Canadian interests with foreign investment but with the lack of clarity and openness form OGL and his Merry Ministers do we or will we ever know?


Now now. Don't get too specific.


----------



## BigDL

My bad!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Might be the public money that went to the business, announced at OGL's Photo Op?
> 
> Might have to do with why wasn't the public's interests protected before pork barreling our tax money to campaign on?
> 
> Might be OGL's failure to protect Canadian interests with foreign investment but with the lack of clarity and openness form OGL and his Merry Ministers do we or will we ever know?


There was no public money announced in 2008. What a stretch... it was part of a tax break stimulus package for all of industry *before* the acquisition occurred. That Electro-Motive Diesel availed themselves of that stimulus to the tune of $5 million dollars does not make it public money, as it was never entered into government revenue. 

The workers of EMD benefited from that at a time when sales were sluggish and they kept their jobs. Progress Rail Services Corporation (effectively Caterpillar) subsequently acquired EMD and now Caterpillar is playing hardball yes but this in no way makes it the government's responsibility to intervene. 

The public's interests are not at stake here the workers of EMD interests are at stake. It is not a good situation and I feel for those workers but it isn't like Air Canada or Canada Post where the greater public interest is at stake.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Now now. Don't get too specific.


Actually not even close to being specific or accurate.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Actually not even close to being specific or accurate.


Oddly enough, it was that very plant where I first worked in a union shop. The parts department featured perhaps the laziest group of workers I've encountered in my life. They would wash their hands for 10 minutes at a time, and schedule jobs so that they could do the least amount of work possible. I've never heard so many people begging me to work slower.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> What in the name of all that is good or holy does this comment mean?


Good to see nothing's changed  my guess, just the usual hand waving.

As you were


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Local politicians in London want OGL to address corporate greed*

Harper called on to address ‘corporate greed’ | London Community News

Brought to you by JNN - "uncovering one piece of chit after another"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper into domination?*

Harper's latest lunge at domination - Winnipeg Free Press

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit it's cold lately eh?"


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper called on to address ‘corporate greed’ | London Community News
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "uncovering one piece of chit after another"


My god that article is so full of factual holes it is pathetic... I think the author is an amateur who did absolutely no research before writing the article. He even refers to Caterpillar as a subsidiary of EMC when it is the other way around. :lmao:



> Talks between CAW and Caterpillar, a subsidiary group of EMC


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper's latest lunge at domination - Winnipeg Free Press
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Chit it's cold latley eh?"


Typical Frances Russell anti-Con diatribe I think she and Lawrence Martin are best friends.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Globe and Mail's take on the handout - gathering steam*

Tories mum on lockout at plant Harper used to tout corporate tax cuts - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

What can I say screature, except that this person seems to be suffering from some sort of delusion that Stephen Harper is personally responsible for all of his fears. Also no facility with either quip or caption.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> What can I say screature, except that this person seems to be suffering from some sort of delusion that Stephen Harper is personally responsible for all of his fears. Also no facility with either quip or caption.


Agreed... My grandmother was the same way about Diefenbaker, if the weather was bad she would blame it on him.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Tories mum on lockout at plant Harper used to tout corporate tax cuts - The Globe and Mail


Love it. It seems a little too painful for the con supporters to address so they prefer to see it as, 'delusional'.

That's the best they can do I guess.


----------



## screature

It has already been stated in post #1836, but I guess you were too busy pulling on a one armed bandit to have read it: 



> There was no public money announced in 2008. It was part of a tax break stimulus package for all of industry before the acquisition occurred. That Electro-Motive Diesel availed themselves of that stimulus to the tune of $5 million dollars does not make it public money, as it was never entered into government revenue.
> 
> The workers of EMD benefited from that at a time when sales were sluggish and they kept their jobs. Progress Rail Services Corporation (effectively Caterpillar) subsequently acquired EMD and now Caterpillar is playing hardball yes but this in no way makes it the government's responsibility to intervene.
> 
> The public's interests are not at stake here the workers of EMD interests are at stake. It is not a good situation and I feel for those workers but it isn't like Air Canada or Canada Post where the greater public interest is at stake.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Love it. It seems a little too painful for the con supporters to address so they prefer to see it as, 'delusional'.
> 
> That's the best they can do I guess.


Their arms were getting too tired?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Their were *getting too tired?


Do you read your posts before you click on submit reply?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Do you read your posts before you click on submit reply?


I suspect that actual examination of public policy and the various roles of government are too complex for people who get their news from the first paragraph of an article in _NOW Magazine_ or the _Tyee_.

Facts, regulations and Acts are mere tinsel designed to confuse informed citizens such as them. Policy discussion, a mere "waving of arms" designed to distract progressives from the truth.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Do you read your posts before you click on submit reply?


...with my mind not always with my eyes. Post edited for your enjoyment...and thanks for your efforts as my editor.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It has already been stated in post #1836, but I guess you were too busy pulling on a one armed bandit to have read it:


I realize that, but I think we are of different opinions, and are likely talking about something slightly different.

I'm guessing to the worker who loses his job, it makes no difference to him or her, what circular justification political 'experts' think up. This sort of nonsense will occur regardless of whether it's the oliberals or conservatives in power, but since it's the conservatives, it's simply the same game that you conservatives would relish in when it's the liberals turn.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I realize that, but I think we are of different opinions, and are likely talking about something slightly different.
> 
> I'm guessing to the worker who loses his job, it makes no difference to him or her, what circular justification political 'experts' think up. This sort of nonsense will occur regardless of whether it's the oliberals or conservatives in power, but since it's the conservatives, *it's simply the same game that you conservatives would relish in when it's the liberals turn*.


On that front we shall have to agree to disagree as I think for myself and often have agreed with specific Liberal policy in the past as well as disagreeing with current Conservative policy. 

There is nothing circular in the logic of this situation. It is simply a union, probably at the behest of their NDP political partners, making a fuss about a situation, the lack of the PM intervening. The fact is that they benefited from the tax break stimulus for two years *before* they were bought out by Progress Rail Services Corporation. That the mothership (Caterpillar) is now being greedy little pigs does not make it the government's responsibility to intervene.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> On that front we shall have to agree to disagree as I think for myself and often have agreed with specific Liberal policy in the past as well as disagreeing with current Conservative policy.


Agreed there. I was relatively quiet during the Chretien years because, while I disagreed with some specific Liberal policies, the aggregate effect of government policy seemed to have an overall benign effect. I just told a canvasser asking for me to support the Conservative Party that I couldn't do this as long as the government continued to spend as it does.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> On that front we shall have to agree to disagree as I think for myself and often have agreed with specific Liberal policy in the past as well as disagreeing with current Conservative policy.
> 
> There is nothing circular in the logic of this situation. It is simply a union, probably at the behest of their NDP political partners, making a fuss about a situation, the lack of the PM intervening. The fact is that they benefited from the tax break stimulus for two years *before* they were bought out by Progress Rail Services Corporation. That the mothership (Caterpillar) is now being greedy little pigs does not make it the government's responsibility to intervene.


Unfortunately, I'm enjoying sunny weather and good drinks by the water to offer a better reply, maybe if there's time over morning coffee, when I generally like to read some news and wave my arms about something or other. But I think when a government uses a case study for showboating some success, it isn't surprising when it goes south that it be used to beat the government over the head with. Regardless of the facts.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)

*Related: * Peter MacKay weds former beauty queen


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)
> 
> *Related: * Peter MacKay weds former beauty queen


:lmao:

You laugh, but I told my wife that a Canadian Rescue Helicopter took them to their honeymoon suite back at the fishing camp where he first was "rescued".


----------



## screature

Getting just a tad old now... seems some cartoonists are one joke ponies.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Unfortunately, I'm enjoying sunny weather and good drinks by the water to offer a better reply, maybe if there's time over morning coffee, when I generally like to read some news and wave my arms about something or other. But I think when a government uses a case study for showboating some success, *it isn't surprising when it goes south that it be used to beat the government over the head with. Regardless of the facts.*


Agreed it is all too predictable, despite the facts.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Agreed it is all too predictable, despite the facts.


That was too easy!


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)
> 
> *Related: * Peter MacKay weds former beauty queen





Dr.G. said:


> :lmao:
> 
> You laugh, but I told my wife that a Canadian Rescue Helicopter took them to their honeymoon suite back at the fishing camp where he first was "rescued".





screature said:


> Getting just a tad old now... seems some cartoonists are one joke ponies.


For some, some things resonate for a very long time, a very long time, a very long time, a very long time, a very long time, a very long time,a very long time, a very long time,very long time,very long time,very long time, long time, long time, long time,long time,long time,long time, time, time,time,time,tim..ti..ti.ti.t.t...


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^^^^^^^
The "progressive" echo chamber effect.


----------



## CubaMark

Or... this could simply prove that those on the political Right just can't take a joke...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Or... this could simply prove that those on the political Right just can't take a joke...


Not at all but a joke loses it's resonance after one has heard it... oh I don't a couple dozen times.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> For some, some things resonate for a very long time, a very long time, a very long time, a very long time, a very long time, a very long time,a very long time, a very long time,very long time,very long time,very long time, long time, long time, long time,long time,long time,long time, time, time,time,time,tim..ti..ti.ti.t.t...


You off your meds BigDL...?


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Not at all but a joke loses it's resonance after one has heard it... oh I don't a couple dozen times.





CubaMark said:


> Or... this could simply prove that those on the political Right just can't take a joke...


CM I'm going with your thesis, especially when it might, possibly, reflect badly, by association or in any other way on OGL.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Harper's top down command control means that he takes the brunt of the chit when things don't go well. The CONS will be reduced to a minority 4 years from now.

Hail OGL!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> CM I'm going with your thesis, especially when it might, possibly, reflect badly, by association or in any other way on OGL.


Nope. They just have higher standards for humour, it seems. A little effort goes a long way.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Nope. They just have higher standards for humour, it seems. A little effort goes a long way.


Denial, Got cha!


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> CM I'm going with your thesis, especially when it might, possibly, reflect badly, by association or in any other way on OGL.


Me three. One can spot tireless defense on conservative governments and righteous indignation when cartoons are posted a mile away.

And dl was there a chamberlain brothers reference there or am I too of my meds.

Not that there is anything wrong with it.


----------



## jimbotelecom

And the CONS are clearly having a tough time managing first nation's budgets. Jobs, jobs, jobs!

First Nations funds mishandled by Ottawa, audits show - Politics - CBC News

Brought to you by JNN - do they even give a chit?


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> And the CONS are clearly having a tough time managing first nation's budgets. Jobs, jobs, jobs!
> 
> First Nations funds mishandled by Ottawa, audits show - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - do they even give a chit


Oh snap that just has to smart. Cue sour grape snipes. Hand waving, the werks.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Me three. One can spot tireless defense on conservative governments and righteous indignation when cartoons are posted a mile away.
> 
> And dl was there a chamberlain brothers reference there or am I too of my meds.
> 
> Not that there is anything wrong with it.


I have been accused of as much myself, just lately, so I may not be the one to ask. 

However watch out now, take care beware of greedy leaders, they take you where you should not go, while weeping atlas cedars they just want to grow, grow and grow, beware of darkness (beware of darkness.)

Just a thought rolling around my neural, might be something I heard at one time or other, but seems good advise in these dark times.


----------



## Macfury

I really appreciate well honed humour aimed even at my sacred cows. The examples here generally remind me of the librarian who cuts out and displays every cartoon featuring a library. Try to be a little selective!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Me three. One can spot tireless defense on conservative governments and *righteous indignation* when cartoons are posted a mile away.
> 
> And dl was there a chamberlain brothers reference there or am I too of my meds.
> 
> Not that there is anything wrong with it.


There was no righteous indignation at all just a comment that the subject is old and tired out. The first half dozen or so cartoons were humorous and timely, the latest was just quite simply neither.


----------



## groovetube

I'm not really pointing this only to you screature, in general, that seems to the the typical response, just about each and every time. I don't think I can recall too many cartoon with jabs at the conservatives receiving very many chuckles or positive responses from the conservative supporters here.


----------



## jimbotelecom

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)
> 
> *Related: * Peter MacKay weds former beauty queen


:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

And what's this I hear Harper has appointed a pile of losers to the senate once again? Talk about making sure that promise is not only broken but so badly mangled so as not to be even recognizable!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm not really pointing this only to you screature, in general, that seems to the the typical response, just about each and every time.* I don't think I can recall too many cartoon with jabs at the conservatives receiving very many chuckles or positive responses from the conservative supporters here.*


I have on a couple of occasions because funny is funny but your point is well taken, but it isn't exactly surprising now is it? If the shoe were on the other foot, posting political jab cartoons at left of centre parties would result in the same sort of defence from those party/government/etc. supporters.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I have on a couple of occasions because funny is funny but your point is well taken, but it isn't exactly surprising now is it?


I would say that 95 per cent of political cartoons aren't very funny anyway. Largely lazy swipes at broad topics using tired old gags that predated my grandparents. Expecting big guffaws from any of it on any side of the spectrum is unrealistic. Likewise, expecting "cred" for posting one of these chestnuts is also unrealistic.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> And what's this I hear Harper has appointed a pile of losers to the senate once again? Talk about making sure that promise is not only broken but so badly mangled so as not to be even recognizable!


OGL was so proud of his actions, he made the announcement after 4 PM on a Friday.

That in and of itself should speak volumes on the character of Our Glorious Leader.


----------



## Macfury

I would have wondered what the hell was wrong with him if he didn't select people who supported him. I suspect soon he will have enough people there to pass a bill making the senate an elected position--a key plank of his election.


----------



## groovetube

He already had enough people there to do so. Only the gullible would suggest otherwise...

But I suppose he wasn't done with his patronage, that he promised NOT to do.

Cons have such short memories don't they.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I would have wondered what the hell was wrong with him if he didn't select people who supported him. I suspect soon he will have enough people there to pass a bill making the senate an elected position--a key plank of his election.


Well, I have to admit it. Some of those that approve of OGL, have some semblance of a sense of humour. 

The very notion of "I suspect soon he will have enough people there to pass a bill making the senate an elected position--a key plank of his election."

What a knee slapper.

OGL already has a majority in the senate in fact he has appointed 43 senators himself since 2006.

I don't know how many more are required to pass legislation that will never be proposed but according to some it will be "soon."

It is very amusing to watch the earnest idealized belief in OGL's machination to keep his greatest hog trough going yet have the faithful convinced the Senate shall be elected... :lmao: "...soon." :lmao: :clap:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> OGL already has a majority in the senate in fact he has appointed 43 senators himself since 2006.
> 
> I don't know how many more are required to pass legislation that will never be proposed but according to some it will be "soon."


You do recall that some of the senators who previously supported this notion, balked at it after being appointed? I think Harper wants to ensure he has an ironclad majority in the Senate before raising that legislation again.


----------



## eMacMan

So recent speeches by BO indicate that he has finally figured out how much the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya have really cost the US. He wants to cut back on the US military and therefore expects other nations including King Harpo to assume more of the financial burden for the upcoming attacks on Iran, Syria and Pakistan.

To see where this is leading us, maybe this excellent explanation of the recent US debt ceiling debates will help. It's only 3 and half minutes so hang in until the end.
poorrichard's blog: Debt Limit - A Guide To American Federal Debt Made Easy.


----------



## groovetube

I think it's rather adorable how harpers supporters still line up to swallow his promises even after they've clearly been broken time after time.

This after chiding others for liberal broken promises.


----------



## jimbotelecom

eMacMan said:


> So recent speeches by BO indicate that he has finally figured out how much the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya have really cost the US. He wants to cut back on the US military and therefore expects other nations including King Harpo to assume more of the financial burden for the upcoming attacks on Iran, Syria and Pakistan.
> 
> To see where this is leading us, maybe this excellent explanation of the recent US debt ceiling debates will help. It's only 3 and half minutes so hang in until the end.
> poorrichard's blog: Debt Limit - A Guide To American Federal Debt Made Easy.


I'd say we can kiss those unneeded and costly jets goodbye. As for the middle east - Iraq was a very expensive lesson.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Bloated Privy Council Office advising OGL*

Global News | Harper's public service staff reaches unprecedented levels

Sure it's all about efficiency and job jobs jobs!

Brought to you by JNN "Canada's been sold a hunk of chit"


----------



## eMacMan

jimbotelecom said:


> I'd say we can kiss those unneeded and costly jets goodbye. As for the middle east - Iraq was a very expensive lesson.


I would agree if it were not for the fact that the propaganda drums continue to beat for attacks on other Middle Eastern nations. 

So I would say that Iraq was a $9 Trillion Dollar lesson from which the US learned only, that it wants to drag Canada and others into the next financial black hole. What I find scary is King Harpos desire to get a closer view of the event horizon.


----------



## jimbotelecom

eMacMan said:


> I would agree if it were not for the fact that the propaganda drums continue to beat for attacks on other Middle Eastern nations.
> 
> So I would say that Iraq was a $9 Trillion Dollar lesson from which the US learned only, that it wants to drag Canada and others into the next financial black hole. What I find scary is King Harpos desire to get a closer view of the event horizon.


I can understand the concern. Of course Harper doesn't do the fighting he just yields the power to place our men and women in danger. Personally I think he's just playing to the rump end of his base who are scared silly by Iran, etc.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> I can understand the concern. Of course Harper doesn't do the fighting he just yields the power to place our men and women in danger. Personally I think he's just playing to the rump end of his base who are scared silly by Iran, etc.


Yeah, I remember the day well when the Harper government first put our troops in the line of fire in Afghanistan. Oh, wait . . .


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Yeah, I remember the day well when the Harper government first put our troops in the line of fire in Afghanistan. Oh, wait . . .


But he did choose to extend their stay, with the rather idiotic claim; that during an eight year stay having failed to teach the Afghani's how to train and protect themselves, we could magically do it in a few more months.

That extension of course added to the debt, which your Grandkids will no doubt enjoy paying for.


----------



## SINC

The point is he is responsible for very little of the overall campaign. The Liberals put us there for nine of the 11 years. He simply extended it two years at the request of allies.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> The point is he is responsible for very little of the overall campaign. The Liberals put us there for nine of the 11 years. He simply extended it two years at the request of allies.


Bingo!
BO said jump. King Harpos only question was: How High?


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Bingo!
> BO said jump. King Harpos only question was: How High?


Did you happen to forget it was approved by parliament? A minority parliament? Gimme a break, it wasn't Harper alone.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Global News | Harper's public service staff reaches unprecedented levels
> 
> Sure it's all about efficiency and job jobs jobs!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN "Canada's been sold a hunk of chit"


Look at the numbers...

In 2005-2006 under Martin the PCO had 1,032 full time positions.

Then when the Cons came into Government in 2006 it dropped to 904 and stayed below Martin's level until 2009-10, when it reached 1,051 and then went to 1,066 in 2010-11. So from when the Cons came into power the PCO has swollen by a *staggering* *34* positions or *3.29 %*... shocking just shocking!! 

Seems crunching the numbers is very selective in this article indeed.

(Jimbo may want to consider changing your tag line to... Brought to you by JNN "spreading one piece of chit at a time". ) or "for all your fertilizing needs" contact JNN.)


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> But he did choose to extend their stay, with the rather idiotic claim; that during an eight year stay having failed to teach the Afghani's how to train and protect themselves, we could magically do it in a few more months.
> 
> That extension of course added to the debt, which your Grandkids will no doubt enjoy paying for.


LOL and the Libs voted in favour of the extension, my oh my some people seem to have selective memories.


----------



## i-rui

screature must've missed this part 



> The growth in this one federal office, however, mirrors the overall trend in Harper’s Ottawa, where the federal public service swelled by more than 33,020 people, or 13 per cent, in his first five years at the helm.
> 
> Read it on Global News: Global News | Harper's public service staff reaches unprecedented levels


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> screature must've missed this part


Yeah I saw it. And yet PSAC are crying bloody murder because the government is now cutting those numbers back... seems you and PSAC want to have your cake and eat too. 

The government is damned if they do and damned if they don't... same as it ever was.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - Jobs Jobs Jobs*

Job creation flounders as cuts loom - The Globe and Mail

Floundering job creation after CONS gain majority.

Oh Oh

Brought to you by JNN - "the chit will hit the fan"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - don't like the law - change it to your advantage*

Tories say ‘radical groups’ exploiting pipeline review process - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "no chit cherlock"


----------



## Macfury

Uh, yeah:



> In an interview Sunday, the minister said his department is examining the existing rules around the environmental review process to prevent the same objections from being made repeatedly by different people or groups.


Examining laws? What draconian ideas will these Conservatives think up next?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - breaks with decentralist philosophy*

Heroin case defines Harper's style

OGL's addicted to bashing the addicted

Brought to you by JNN - "chit baker was an addict"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - No heart or conscience*

Harper government has no heart or conscience: Foote - Local - The Western Star

No heart or conscience? No Kidding!

Brought to you by JNN - "chit this will be a tough 4 long years"


----------



## Macfury

Seriously, Jimbo. If this is just going to become a thread for you to list your Google News alerts, it's going to die a fairly quick death.

I propose that you run the Jimbo News Network in its own thread, so this one can be used for discussion of Canadian political issues.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Go plaintiffs go! Sue the pants off Harper and CONS*

Farmers launch wheat board class action - Politics - CBC News

Brought to you by JNN - "there's a lot of chit around the corner"


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I propose that you run the Jimbo News Network in its own thread, so this one can be used for discussion of Canadian political issues.


As long as the news stories being highlighted by the JNN are relevant to Canadian Politics, I don't see why they shouldn't be here. The fact that his posting style underscores the fact that the Cons are running roughshod over much of what defines our country, or that, like CNN, he provides little analysis of the stories aren't good reasons to exclude him from the thread.

You and the other Con supporters are free to continue to try to defend the antics of OGL and his minions.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> As long as the news stories being highlighted by the JNN are relevant to Canadian Politics, I don't see why they shouldn't be here. The fact that his posting style underscores the fact that the Cons are running roughshod over much of what defines our country, or that, like CNN, he provides little analysis of the stories aren't good reasons to exclude him from the thread.
> 
> You and the other Con supporters are free to continue to try to defend the antics of OGL and his minions.


There is no posting style. They're just links without any value added. I don't mind him feeding you and the other members of the Greek Chorus with link salad, but I expect some work to be put into the posts as well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

bryanc said:


> As long as the news stories being highlighted by the JNN are relevant to Canadian Politics, I don't see why they shouldn't be here. The fact that his posting style underscores the fact that the Cons are running roughshod over much of what defines our country, or that, like CNN, he provides little analysis of the stories aren't good reasons to exclude him from the thread.
> 
> You and the other Con supporters are free to continue to try to defend the antics of OGL and his minions.


Well said. If you can't taker the eat get out of the kitchen.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> If you can't taker the eat get out of the kitchen.


What?


----------



## eMacMan

Never was a fan of the fiberals, but a parliamentary style of government depends on a strong opposition to keep it honest, and sadly that will be lacking for the foreseeable future.

While this is undoubtedly great for the PM's corporate buddies, the banksters and similar leeches, it is not at all good for taxpayers.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Even the CON press think Harper's stance on Senate a Bad Idea*

Stephen Harper's really bad idea | Full Comment | National Post

Brought to you by JNN - "Oh chit MF doesn't like these!"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS spending money to promote the monarchy - jobs jobs jobs!*

Tories looked to rein in costs of Queen's Diamond Jubilee, documents show - The Globe and Mail

What she needs more diamonds?

Brought to you by JNN - "good day for chitty news eh"


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Never was a fan of the fiberals, but a parliamentary style of government depends on a strong opposition to keep it honest, and sadly that will be lacking for the foreseeable future.
> 
> While this is undoubtedly great for the PM's corporate buddies, the banksters and similar leeches, it is not at all good for taxpayers.


On what facts do you base that?

When the Liberals were in power a decade or so ago, the opposition was almost the same in numbers as it is today, both having a strong opposition. In fact, the opposition of today may be much stronger due to the NDP surge in 2011:


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> When the Liberals were in power a decade or so ago, the opposition was almost the same in numbers as it is today, both having a strong opposition.


The current opposition is a rudderless ship. Neither the NDP nor the Liberals have a leader, and neither are showing much evidence of being able to get their respective acts together.

The current Conservatives have an undisputed dictatorship for the foreseeable future and they know it. A couple of good things may come of this. Some of the Conservative policies that are actually sensible, but would've been politically difficult to pull off (like senate reform) may actually occur. Furthermore, if, after a term of unfettered control, the Conservatives haven't enacted some of their socially-conservative "hidden agenda", people like me, who've been warning about this potential will have to admit that we were wrong and shut up about it. That's one aspect of the Conservative majority I'd be happy to be proved wrong about.

Cheers


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Furthermore, if, after a term of unfettered control, the Conservatives haven't enacted some of their socially-conservative "hidden agenda", people like me, who've been warning about this potential will have to admit that we were wrong and shut up about it. That's one aspect of the Conservative majority I'd be happy to be proved wrong about.


Would love to see some of the hidden agenda enacted!


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Farmers launch wheat board class action - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "there's a lot of chit around the corner"





jimbotelecom said:


> Stephen Harper's really bad idea | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Oh chit MF doesn't like these!"





jimbotelecom said:


> Tories looked to rein in costs of Queen's Diamond Jubilee, documents show - The Globe and Mail
> 
> What she needs more diamonds?
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "good day for chitty news eh"


Keep'em coming jimbotelecom, very thought provoking. As we see below it is provoking an atom to be smashed to smithereens.



Macfury said:


> Seriously, Jimbo. If this is just going to become a thread for you to list your Google News alerts, it's going to die a fairly quick death.
> 
> I propose that you run the Jimbo News Network in its own thread, so this one can be used for discussion of Canadian political issues.


I believe it was the Mayor himself that suggested all Canadian Political matters should be contained within this thread, so collect the electrons, protons and neutrons and pull yourself together, then build yourself a bridge to the future and get over it. 'cause JNN is here to stay. Yeah!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> There is no posting style. They're just links without any value added. I don't mind him feeding you and the other members of the Greek Chorus with link salad, but I expect some work to be put into the posts as well.


Seems you're just miffed at the large number of criticisms leveled at our government.

The subject is well within the thread title so I'd say, tough bells. You had no problem turning every thread that smelled of us politics all about Obama! Obama! Obama! So tough.


----------



## BigDL

*Does Radical = Opposition*

Does Joe Oliver's open letter all boil down to "STFU" to any opposition to the Northern Gateway Pipeline?



CBCNews said:


> Environmental and other "radical groups" are trying to block trade and undermine Canada's economy, Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver said Monday.
> 
> Oliver's comments come one day before federal regulatory hearings begin on whether to approve Enbridge's Northern Gateway pipeline, which would deliver crude from Alberta's oilsands to Kitimat, B.C., for shipment to Asia.
> 
> More than 4,300 people have signed up to address the proposed pipeline over the next 18 months.


Is Joe Oliver saying to Opposition STFU?


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Does Joe Oliver's open letter all boil down to "STFU" any opposition to the Northern Gateway Pipeline?
> 
> 
> 
> Is Joe Oliver saying to Opposition STFU?



Just saw this on JNN

"Dear Editor—

I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there will not be a pipeline. Papa says, “If you read it on The Jimbo News Network, it’s so.” Please tell me the truth, will there be a pipeline?

Virginia O’Hanlon"

Here is their reply --

"Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there will be a pipeline."


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Does Joe Oliver's open letter all boil down to "STFU" to any opposition to the Northern Gateway Pipeline?


No. It just shortens the kvetching period.


----------



## Macfury

Let me google that for you

Brought to you by the Jimbo News Network, where context is always out of reach...


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No. It just shortens the kvetching period.


I'm sure all the dictators of the world past and present feel exactly the same way.

Thanks for making this clear! :clap:


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> No. It just shortens the kvetching period.


One person's kvetching is another's reasoned response, is it not, as outlined in the preceding response. Shouldn't you stop being so pithy?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> One person's kvetching is another's reasoned response, is it not, as outlined in the preceding response. Shouldn't you stop being so pithy?


I've seen these "reasoned" responses, and would simply call many of them delay tactics. I pity the person who has to attend these presentations, listening to the same information over and over and over.


----------



## groovetube

Democracy can suck at times eh.

Having to put up with having to listen other opinions and stuff. So tiresome, and worthy of real bellyaching.

Why why why, must you always be victimized by these radicals????


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Democracy can suck at times eh.
> 
> Having to put up with having to listen other opinions and stuff. So tiresome, and worthy of real bellyaching.
> 
> Why why why, must you always be victimized by these radicals????


True. I think that these "radicals" should either be banned from this site for their victimization of Macfury, or blasted by those of us who are correct-thinking folks of government approved correct thoughts. We need to raise up our collective voices to drown out these radicals and their vile messages. These progressives should go back to where they came and leave us alone. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Obviously getting under some thin skins around here. Plenty more to come, simply by broadcasting one atrocious act after another.

One could always utilize the ignore option or simply move on.

Ella Fitzgerald cover of the Cole Porter classic is simply beautiful - I've got you under my skin".


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Plenty more to come, simply by broadcasting one atrocious act after another.


Plenty more to come, simply by Googling all of the complaints on the Internet. Now that's a high calling!


----------



## groovetube

You should know you certainly wallowed in that when Obama got elected.

I thought perhaps you were close to being eligible for victim's services at one point.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> You should know you certainly wallowed in that when Obama got elected.
> 
> I thought perhaps you were close to being eligible for victim's services at one point.


Well, if Macfury gets his way, we won't have Pres. Obama to kick around anymore. Hopefully, Rep. Ron Paul will get elected, and we shall see a sunny Macfury for at least four years ................. at least when it comes to American politics. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Well, if Macfury gets his way, we won't have Pres. Obama to kick around anymore. Hopefully, Rep. Ron Paul will get elected, and we shall see a sunny Macfury for at least four years ................. at least when it comes to American politics. We shall see.


President Obama has done such a grand job pointing to his own inadequacies that I was able to take a well deserved respite!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> President Obama has done such a grand job pointing to his own inadequacies that I was able to take a well deserved respite!


Macfury, go for the gold and put your money on a Ron Paul victory in the primaries ............... and then a victory in Nov. It could happen. Who would have thought that Pres. Obama would win the primaries and then go on to win the presidency. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

*Canada set to claim important role on the world stage*

Canada set to claim important role on the world stage
That we have a marvellous international reputation is mostly myth, but that's about to change as we become among most-prosperous nations



> One persistent Canadian myth is that the country has a marvellous international reputation. It is true Canada for many years did all it could to be on the side of the angels but such eagerness to please has barely registered overseas. To find out what the world really thinks, just Google "Canada most boring country" and see what appears.
> 
> Canada's elites have often viewed such banal depictions as compliments, rather than slurs. Whatever the case, it no longer fits to describe Canada - one of the world's most affluent, dynamic trading nations - as a tedious non-entity.
> 
> There was surprise - even alarm - among the Pearsonian chattering classes when Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his finance minister, Jim Flaherty, recently lectured Europeans about their financial incompetence.
> 
> But why were eyebrows raised? Canada has left much of Old Europe behind economically. Over the next 25 years it will likely surpass France and Britain. Blessed with immense natural bounty and a highly educated population, Canada will eventually compete with Germany and Japan to become the second most prosperous developed country after the United States.
> 
> Every Canadian knows our dollar has been doing better against almost every other currency. The International Monetary Fund reckons that Canada's gross domestic product moved ahead of the U.S. by about $3,000 on a per-capita basis last year.
> 
> Canadian banks are the most stable in the world. Few Canadian homeowners are losing their homes to foreclosure. Driven by oil, potash and again wheat, our economy has outpaced most other Western countries for some time. In a quiet acknowledgment of these facts, the governor of the Bank of Canada, Mark Carney, was appointed as the new chief of the Financial Stability Board, a group of top fiscal experts trying to keep the global house of cards from collapsing....
> 
> None of this means Ottawa has become quarrelsome. What it signals is that for the first time in decades a more confident Canada intends to live to what has until recently been largely a fantasy - that it is an important world player. It will be fascinating to see how Canada tries to escape from its shadow.


----------



## screature

*NDP's suspicion unhealthy*

NDP's suspicion unhealthy 



> One gets it why former premier Roy Romanow would be suspicious that Prime Minister Stephen Harper is up to no good on the healthcare front.
> 
> As a New Democrat, Romanow's natural paranoia in this case would be heightened by the fact that: (a) the issue is medicare, and: (b) the politician is Harper.
> 
> In a rare foray back into the political world from which he retired in 2001, Romanow is urging Harper to join the country's premiers at next week's health summit in Victoria, or risk a weaker health system, increased privatization and even disunity in the nation....
> 
> While Romanow - and the rest of Canada, for that matter - might have reason to be of suspicious Harper's health-care agenda, what also needs to be looked at is how irrationally intransigent and myopic New Democrats have been on the medicare issue. In fact, one can think back today about a glorious opportunity Romanow missed in his 2002 report on the future of health care in Canada.
> 
> His 357-page report called for innovations such as improving mental health care, creating an independent agency to speed up the approval of new drugs and a special emphasis on First Nations health - something that Harper, then leader of the Canadian Alliance, claimed would take health care back to the 1960s.
> 
> However, despite Romanow's extensive research at the time of other public health systems in Sweden and England, which have substantial private components that work effectively at reducing waiting lists, he saw no reason for the provinces to explore delivering health care outside the confines of the public system. That Brad Wall's Saskatchewan Party seems to be making headway by doing exactly this is a huge irony.
> 
> *A decade after Romanow's departure, a rather interesting thing is happening in Saskatchewan's health system this year: We are seeing the Health Ministry budget come in on target and waiting lists being reduced. There are many reasons for this, including emphasis on efficiencies, but stand-alone private surgical clinics and a non-bureaucratic approach that sees patients as customers have been the key.
> 
> Of course, the "five pillars of medicare" are sacrosanct to the NDP. But what New Democrats such as Romanow miss in their refusal to add water to the wine of health care is that the "values of the country" they tout, such as accessible health care, also mean reasonable surgical wait times.
> 
> Romanow may be right to be suspicious of a Harper health-care agenda that cuts federal health transfers and then asks rightwing premiers to solve the problem. But the NDP's unwillingness to compromise on public health has helped us to reach this point.
> *


----------



## CubaMark

*Did I miss the discussion on this issue, or is nobody talking about it?*
*EDIT*: _Near-synchronous posting... _

*Health plan slammed*



> THE CANADIAN ideal of equal health care available across the country will be dead under the Harper government’s new funding plan, says Premier Darrell Dexter.





> ...federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty surprised the provinces in December with a non-negotiable health transfer plan that runs until 2024, he changed the way health payments are made in two fundamental ways.
> 
> First, provinces will receive the cash with no strings attached, as opposed to the previous accord, in which funding was tied to fulfilling the principles — tenets that include universality, accessibility and comprehensiveness — of the Canada Health Act.
> 
> Second, payments will be calculated solely on a per capita basis, which will benefit booming western provinces. In particular, Alberta will receive about $1 billion more per year.





> The right-wing Atlantic Institute for Market Studies think-tank has often disagreed with Dexter on health-care issues but backed him up Monday, at least to a point.
> 
> AIMS research director Don McIver agreed with the premier that there will be widely varying levels of service in the future. However, he said the ideal of roughly equal health care does not exist now.
> 
> "Divergence is an immediate reality; that’s what’s happening now," said McIver.
> 
> "Every province has got a different set of rules, regulations and realities."


(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## screature

*Liberals’ top-down view of federalism out of date*

Liberals’ top-down view of federalism out of date
Toronto Star



> ...In the recent past, no governing party has overlooked the realities of the division of powers between Ottawa and the provinces when it suited its purpose quite as routinely as the federal Liberal party.
> 
> In Liberal circles, what passes for federal leadership often amounts to a series of unsolicited interventions in provincial areas of responsibility.
> 
> Reading some Chrétien-era throne speeches, one might be forgiven for thinking the provinces did not exist.
> 
> Under Paul Martin the same philosophy resulted, most notably in the creation of a now-defunct federal body devoted to “learning”. (Its deathbed salvo was a lengthy plea for a federal education framework.)
> 
> There was also a failed federal attempt to deal directly with Canada’s big cities.
> 
> Ironically, over the Chrétien-Martin years, the social safety net was most significantly expanded in Quebec, with landmark provincial initiatives on the fronts of childcare, parental leave and pharmacare. And Alberta led the way to increased social spending.
> 
> As it happens, those two provinces have traditionally guarded their constitutional sovereignty over social policy most jealously.
> 
> More so than anything else — including the sponsorship scandal and the National Energy Program — that top-down Liberal view of federalism accounts for the estrangement of the West and francophone Quebec from Canada’s former natural governing party.
> 
> It is no accident that support for sovereignty has gone steadily down in Quebec over the past six Conservative years. Stephen Harper leads the least interventionist federal government in decades...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Did I miss the discussion on this issue, or is nobody talking about it?*
> *EDIT*: _Near-synchronous posting... _
> 
> *Health plan slammed*
> 
> 
> (Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


You can be forgiven, being an expat CM, but the idea that "equal health care (be) available across the country" is and always has been a pipe dream as it has never existed and can't exist as the delivery of Health Care falls under provincial jurisdiction.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> but the idea that "equal health care (be) available across the country" is and always has been a pipe dream as it has never existed and can't exist as the delivery of Health Care falls under provincial jurisdiction.


So then, like the ideas of a "just society" or "good governance" we should just give up on it, because perfection can never be achieved.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> So then, like the ideas of a "just society" or "good governance" we should just give up on it, because perfection can never be achieved.


Yes. Under the new Harper Government of Canada, a new direction for our country might finally be achieved. 

As Prime Minister Wilfrid Laurier, said in 1904: "The 19th century was the century of the United States. I think we can claim that it is Canada that shall fill the 20th century."

Maybe this won't be "our century" here in the 21st century, but under the guidance of PM Harper, this shall be our decade. Social Darwinism shall again flourish and ideas such as the social safety net, universial health care and "the just society" will become concepts of the past.


----------



## screature

*NDP MP Lise St-Denis jumps to Liberals*

NDP MP Lise St-Denis jumps to Liberals



> "The choice that I'm making is motivated by the challenges faced by my riding," she said.
> 
> St-Denis represents the riding of Saint-Maurice-Champlain, former prime minister Jean Chrétien's riding.
> 
> She cited the Liberals' social policy and job-creation strategies as reasons for the jump, as well as the NDP pulling support for the mission in Libya in its final weeks.
> 
> "It's imperative to make choices that will assuredly protect who we are and who we want to become," she said, calling it a question of principle.
> 'Wasn't named critic'
> 
> St-Denis says she didn't believe she'd be elected when she let her name stand as an NDP candidate, but that it wasn't unusual for her to run for the party because she'd worked for them for 10 years.
> 
> But she said she's been pondering the jump almost since the May 2, 2011, election.
> 
> "It’s been six months that I’ve been reflecting and discussing," she said.
> 
> "*I wasn't named a critic and I was sat in the back row* because of my last name, which starts with S, so I had lots of time to look and listen to everyone," St-Denis said.


:baby:


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> So then, like the ideas of a "just society" or "good governance" we should just give up on it, because perfection can never be achieved.


You don't get it do you? Constitutionally it can't and never will be the case, unless the Constitution is changed and all provinces agree which will never happen because Quebec would never agree even if the rest of the provinces did. 

As a scientist I would think you would appreciate the notion that by definition certain things are not possible due to the very nature of their make up.

Roy Romanow's one-note tune



> Give Roy Romanow credit for one thing: consistency. For the past decade, the former Saskatchewan premier and head of the 2002 Royal Commission on health care has sung the same tune: The government health monopoly must be preserved at any cost.
> 
> Literally, any cost. Mr. Romanow's solution to whatever ails medicare - soaring costs, faltering health outcomes, slow uptake of new technologies and medications - is always the same: more federal money. Time and again, Mr. Romanow has stated that the monopoly publicpayer system envisioned by those who favour a dogmatic reading of the Canada Health Act is the ideal around which all health policy should be focused.
> 
> Next week, the provincial premiers will convene a health-care summit in Victoria. By his own choice, Prime Minister Stephen Harper will not be there. (And given the way these meetings all turn into anti-Ottawa whinefests, we don't blame him.) Mr. Romanow is appalled by the PM's hands-off approach. In an interview with Postmedia News, Mr. Romanow insisted that if the PM does not take an aggressive leadership role in talks about the future of medicare, public health care will weaken, private care will spread and the very fabric of our nation will be imperilled.
> 
> *Reality check: Canada's Constitution gives the federal government no role in setting health-care policy. None. For half a century, Ottawa has bought a place at the health-care table only by shipping billions annually to the provinces in the form of health transfers, and then slapping conditions on how the money is spent. In other words, the entire structure of the Canada Health Act - which leftists identify as one of the great pillars of our nation - is essentially based on extortion.*
> 
> Then-prime minister Paul Martin bought a decade of relative health-care peace in 2004 by agreeing to give the provinces nearly $5-billion more each year through 2014. But with that agreement nearing its end, the old intergovernmental theatrics were beginning to boil once again in late 2011. So last month, federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty told his provincial counterparts what Ottawa was prepared to pay them annually after the current funding agreement expires: From 2014 to 2017, Ottawa will continue to raise its annual contribution to provincial health budgets by 6%. Thereafter, yearly contributions will rise only by the rate of economic growth and the rise in inflation - currently about 4%. Yet in no year will the provinces receive a rise of less than 3%.
> 
> This seems eminently fair to us - generous, in fact - especially since the feds are demanding less say over provincial health policy in return for the extra money they will be shipping the provinces.
> 
> This approach is not something new. The reduction in federal demands in return for larger health transfers began in earnest under the Liberals, who averted their eyes from the expansion of private health clinics in the 2000s - especially in Montreal and Vancouver - despite their opposition to the very same type of clinics when they popped up in Alberta during the 1990s. When Mr. Martin signed his decadelong funding agreement with the premiers in 2004, the new money came with few new obligations for the provinces - something (the admirably non-partisan) Mr. Romanow complained about at the time.
> 
> But so what if the provinces don't all offer identical services and delivery models? Let them devise blended public-private systems that work best for their residents or for their budgets - and let provincial governments live with the political consequences of those choices. How does that threaten "national unity"?
> 
> *It is time for Canada - and particularly for Canadian politicians - to get beyond the notion of health care as national symbol. The universal, government-funded health monopoly has been faltering for decades. Since Mr. Martin increased the provinces' health transfers, each province has increased the per capita amounts it spends on hospitals, clinics and health workers, but waiting lists have continued to grow. And international rating agencies, such as the Organization for Economic Development and Cooperation continue to rank Canada in the middle of the pack or below in health outcomes, such as survival rates from cancer and heart disease. That's why people are going to private health clinics, despite their limited range of services.
> 
> This is not an argument for an "American-style" system: It should be remembered that every single European country permits private health insurance for those seeking better or faster treatment - even as those nations also provide a baseline of universal government-provided care.*
> 
> The frozen-in-amber, don'tchange-a-thing attitude of Mr. Romanow is a relic of the 1990s. Canadian health consumers have moved on. And so should he.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Questions on Harper patronage from beautiful Vancouver*

Harper Conservatives are Patronage Superstars | Vancouver Sun

Brought to you by JNN - "there's plenty of chit in the pig pen...oink, oink, oink"


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Yes. Under the new Harper Government of Canada, a new direction for our country might finally be achieved.
> 
> As Prime Minister Wilfrid Laurier, said in 1904: "The 19th century was the century of the United States. I think we can claim that it is Canada that shall fill the 20th century."
> 
> Maybe this won't be "our century" here in the 21st century, but under the guidance of PM Harper, this shall be our decade. Social Darwinism shall again flourish and ideas such as the social safety net, *universial health care *and "the just society" will become concepts of the past.


This concept does not mean universality of delivery merely universality of availability... Time to bone up on our form of federalism Dr. G.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> You don't get do you? Constitutionally it can't and never will be the case


Of course I understand that. But I also understand that the federal government has historically made the provincial governments work towards that goal by tying transfer payments to that obligation. Removing that obligation is what I object to.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> This concept does not mean universality of delivery merely universality of availability... Time to bone up on our form of federalism Dr. G.


That should be done away with as well. Let those who can pay for health care receive this care. As for the others .................. well, I guess they are out of luck. The free lunch has to end as some time.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Of course I understand that. But I also understand that the federal government has historically made the provincial governments work towards that goal by tying transfer payments to that obligation. Removing that obligation is what I object to.


Read the article I posted above, they are simply allowing the provinces to properly fulfill their mandate within the federation as opposed to the patriarchal and failed approach of successive years of Liberal rule.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*NGO's want Harper to cut the salt*

Harper must demand action on sodium levels, health groups urge - The Globe and Mail

Personally I wish Harper increased his salt intake.

Brought to you by JNN - "I need a taxi chit".


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper must demand action on sodium levels, health groups urge - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Personally I wish Harper increased his salt intake.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "I need a taxi chit".


Thank god this ridiculous notion is being ignored. If you look at the literature there is no known amount of salt intake that is appropriate for all individuals, it is extremely variable.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> Personally I wish Harper increased his salt intake.


That is sick, twisted and uncalled for as it insinuates you wish him dead by heart attack. To wish harm on a person because you dislike their politics is unacceptable.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> That should be done away with as well. *Let those who can pay for health care receive this care. As for the others .................. well, I guess they are out of luck. * The free lunch has to end as some time.


This not what is being proposed in the least... it seems that every time there is an issue of serious political contention, you take on this habit of posting facetious comments rather than entering into some kind of actual debate... I wonder why that is...?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> That is sick, twisted and uncalled for as it insinuates you wish him dead by heart attack. To wish harm on a person because you dislike their politics is unacceptable.


He's done it before, don't you recall when he wished cancer on Harper... jimbo is a real sweetheart he is.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You don't get it do you? Constitutionally it can't and never will be the case, unless the Constitution is changed and all provinces agree which will never happen because Quebec would never agree even if the rest of the provinces did.
> 
> As a scientist I would think you would appreciate the notion that by definition certain things are not possible due to the very nature of their make up.
> 
> Roy Romanow's one-note tune


I sure hope it's not an argument formamerican style healthcare, this government seems to have a thing for following the failed policies of the us despite overwhelming evidence that it shouldn't do so, but hey, ideology over sanity.

You'll have to excuse my lack of trust in anything this government does and policies affecting healthcare in this country is no exception.


----------



## screature

As it said in the article I included in the post:



> It is time for Canada - and particularly for Canadian politicians - to get beyond the notion of health care as national symbol. The universal, government-funded health monopoly has been faltering for decades. Since Mr. Martin increased the provinces' health transfers, each province has increased the per capita amounts it spends on hospitals, clinics and health workers, but waiting lists have continued to grow. And international rating agencies, such as the Organization for Economic Development and Cooperation continue to rank Canada in the middle of the pack or below in health outcomes, such as survival rates from cancer and heart disease. That's why people are going to private health clinics, despite their limited range of services.
> 
> *This is not an argument for an "American-style" system*: It should be remembered that *every single European country permits private health insurance for those seeking better or faster treatment - even as those nations also provide a baseline of universal government-provided care.*


----------



## groovetube

Uhhh... I saw that, and that's what I responded to.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. This government has lied through its teeth many times, very clearly.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> He's done it before, don't you recall when he wished cancer on Harper... jimbo is a real sweetheart he is.


Please feel free to find where said that. I said wrong party was affected - aimed at no specific individual. 

Anyway as screature said salt intake capacity varies per individual. OGL looks like a quality salt consumer.

Salt of the earth. Wonder if he likes pork fat too.


----------



## eMacMan

It is a well known fact that from the very beginning every GL has prayed over each and every barrel of salt pork destined for the heathen savages out on the reserves. And since the very beginning, more often than not God tells OGL to confiscate said pork barrel for his own personal use. <with thanks to SLC>


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Please feel free to find where said that. I said wrong party was affected - aimed at no specific individual.
> 
> Anyway as screature said salt intake capacity varies per individual. OGL looks like a quality salt consumer.
> 
> Salt of the earth. Wonder if he likes pork fat too.


You know very well you said it when Layton was diagnosed with his last cancer, you took a self imposed vacation for it and very nice cover up knowing that it can't be found because you retracted it. So maybe you call fool some others around here but not me because I know exactly how it went down because I was involved with it.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> You know very well you said it when Layton was diagnosed with his last cancer, you took a self imposed vacation for it and very nice cover up knowing that it can't be found because you retracted it. So maybe you call fool some others around here but not me because I know exactly how it went down because I was involved with it.


screature not a single word has been altered in my posts. So please feel free to dig it up.
You will not be able to dig up such a post specifying Harper because no such post was ever made.

You can of course insist that something that never happened happened. That is your right.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> screature not a single word has been altered in my posts. So please feel free to dig it up.
> You will not be able to dig up such a post specifying Harper because no such post was ever made.
> 
> You can of course insist that something that never happened happened. That is your right.


Like I said you know what happened and I now know what you are but I won't say here. Carry on with your fabrications.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Like I said you know what happened and I now know what you are but I won't say here. Carry on with your fabrications.


You are deluded.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Like I said you know what happened and I now know what you are but I won't say here. Carry on with your fabrications.


Yes, I remember it as well. Jimbo exiled himself after the comment:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/96111-bob-rae-rejoining-ndp.html#post1115421


----------



## i-rui

isn't that exactly what jimbo claimed he said?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> isn't that exactly what jimbo claimed he said?


Yes, that he wished all of the Conservative Party to have cancer.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Thanks for digging that up you are good for something.

Of course you can't read. Where exactly does it say CON party?

Nowhere does it say Harper or Conservative party.

I rest my case.

Be seeing you.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> screature not a single word has been altered in my posts. So please feel free to dig it up.
> You will not be able to dig up such a post specifying Harper because no such post was ever made.
> 
> You can of course insist that something that never happened happened. That is your right.





Macfury said:


> Yes, I remember it as well. Jimbo exiled himself after the comment:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/96111-bob-rae-rejoining-ndp.html#post1115421





> Thanks for digging that up you are good for something.
> 
> Of course you can't read. Where exactly does it say CON party?
> 
> Nowhere does it say Harper or Conservative party.
> 
> I rest my case.
> 
> Be seeing you.


Mea culpa to jimbo he didn't wish cancer specifically on Harper in an explicit manner (although one can see the correlation where it was the leader of the NDP who was struck by cancer). I apologize. 

He only wished cancer on anyone from the Conservative party. 

And don't try and wiggle out jimbo pretending it wasn't the Conservative party you were referring to, you were, you wear your hatred of the cons on your sleeve every day.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Mea culpa to jimbo he didn't wish cancer specifically on Harper (although one can see the correlation where it was the leader of the NDP who was struck by cancer) I apologize. He only wished cancer on anyone from the Conservative party.
> 
> And don't try and wiggle out jimbo pretending it wasn't the Conservative party you were referring to you were your hatred of the cons on your sleeve every day.


I'm not looking for an apology screature. And I do not "hate" the CON party as I have many CON friends and I value both their opinions and their friendship. I do however "dislike" Harper. Harper is the point man and deserves the warranted attention for his misdeeds.

Admittedly, I would never shake hands with the fink.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> *I'm not looking for an apology screature*. And I do not "hate" the CON party as I have many CON friends and I value both their opinions and their friendship. I do however "dislike" Harper. Harper is the point man and deserves the warranted attention for his misdeeds.
> 
> Admittedly, I would never shake hands with the fink.


Well you got one anyway and you sure could have fooled most of here regarding not hating cons as many of your posts, specifically ones wishing ill will on them, suggest otherwise.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Well you got one anyway and you sure could have fooled most of here regarding not hating cons as many of your posts, specifically ones wishing ill will on them, suggest otherwise.


Is that so? You may recall that I find Jim Prentice to be a good person. Or perhaps a reference to a time when CONS were civil. All right here in this thread. Times have changed as you know screature. Unfortunately for the CON party Harper has a way of centralizing and dictating that is, in my opinion, highly offensive. Please feel free to utilize the ignore feature. It may save you considerable greif.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> It may save you considerable greif.


Feel free to use the spell check feature--it may save you considerable grief.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> NDP MP Lise St-Denis jumps to Liberals
> 
> 
> 
> :baby:


...and that helps your cause how?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Is that so? You may recall that I find Jim Prentice to be a good person. Or perhaps a reference to a time when CONS were civil. All right here in this thread. Times have changed as you know screature. Unfortunately for the CON party Harper has a way of centralizing and dictating that is, in my opinion, highly offensive. Please feel free to utilize the ignore feature. It may save you considerable greif.


Yes it is MO. A couple positive references among the dozens and dozens (hundreds probably) of snide and churlish comments is supposed to change that opinion. You think too highly of your effect on my emotional well being if you think your posts cause me grief. They are irksome at best and actually very easily ignored without having to block them.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...and that helps your cause how?


What cause is that exactly? I didn't know I had one.


----------



## BigDL

...the cause expressed while posting it's all there for the reading.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...the caused expressed while posting it's all there for the reading.


The caused? 

If it's all there then tell me, I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Yes it is MO. A couple positive references among the dozens and dozens (hundreds probably) of snide and churlish comments is supposed to change that opinion. You think too highly of your effect on my emotional well being if you think your posts cause me grief. They are irksome at best and actually very easily ignored without having to block them.


Please feel free to ignore my irksome posts then.

Be seeing you.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Please feel free to ignore my irksome posts then.
> 
> Be seeing you.


Nah... and miss out on all the fun...? beejacon


----------



## BigDL

Very interesting what can be read in posts.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Nah... and miss out on all the fun...? beejacon


Exactly.

And back to the news from a montreal perspective:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opin...dumping+ground+best+Senate/5970583/story.html

Oink Oink Oink

Brought to you by JNN - "because sometimes chit happens when we type too fast MF"


----------



## Macfury

I also find the net effect of the "Jimbo News Network" rather amusing, screature. This hard work of Googling and grunting is going to bring down the Conservative majority how much earlier?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And back to the news from a montreal perspective:
> 
> Stephen Maher: Crony dumping ground is not the best use of Senate
> 
> Oink Oink Oink
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "because sometimes chit happens when we type too fast MF"





> ... *He hasn't quite matched Pierre Trudeau's breathtaking round of parting-gift appointments in 1984, which helped make Brian Mulroney prime minister.*
> 
> But Harper didn't get elected by promising to be just as bad as Trudeau, and you can tell that he isn't proud of his appointments, because he announced the latest batch at 4: 30 on a Friday afternoon, which is how you bury news.
> 
> Harper has promised to reform the Senate, but doing so through constitutional amendment is all but impossible. He can impose term limits and allow for provinces to hold elections, if the Supreme Court doesn't find those unconstitutional.
> 
> *If those two reforms succeed, and senators are emboldened by elections, they might defy the House, which could lead to American-style gridlock - although it would likely be less common than south of the border - and the West's under-representation would be more problematic.*
> 
> But the status quo breeds a terrible cynicism about politics. *The institution was designed to protect the interests of the propertied class *from mob rule in the House of Commons, represent the regions and *act as a chamber of sober second thought*.
> 
> *It now serves as little more than a dumping ground for the favoured cronies of the prime minister.** It could be much more useful, and that's likely worth the risk.*


The author is living in a fantasy land if he thinks that the Senate has ever been anything other than a crony dumping ground... at least now Senate reform is the stated goal of the cronyism, time will tell.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The author is living in a fantasy land if he thinks that the Senate has ever been anything other than a crony dumping ground... at least now Senate reform is the stated goal of the cronyism, time will tell.


Exactly. Stephen Harper tried once to bring about Senate reform, but there were too many Liberal hogs still in the trough to pull it off.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Stephen Harper tried once to bring about Senate reform, but there were too many Liberal hogs still in the trough to pull it off.


Indeed.

S-4
An Act to amend the Constitution Act, 1867 (Senate tenure)


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yuk Yuk Yuk Yuk or should I say Oink Oink Oink.

Now the fink gets to fill positions with his fellow pigs a la Liberals. He has known for a long time that without a constitutional agreement the abolition of the Senate will never happen.

Personally, I would like a proportionally represented Senate (with real powers) to check the excesses of minority elected majorities. But that will not happen.

Quite the day today being slandered by fellow ehmacians for things I never said but hey what do you want from Harper sycophants.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The author is living in a fantasy land if he thinks that the Senate has ever been anything other than a crony dumping ground... at least now Senate reform is the stated goal of the cronyism, time will tell.


Sorry screature but that doesn't cut it. Harper and co specifically promised NO cronyism. Period. This well it's always been that way is a nonsense excuse.

If that isn't an admission of defeat...


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Personally, I would like a proportionally represented Senate (with real powers) to check the excesses of minority elected majorities. But that will not happen.


Certainly,the Liberals had no interest in this at all, so you're in luck with Harper.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Yuk Yuk Yuk Yuk or should I say Oink Oink Oink.
> 
> Now the fink gets to fill positions with his fellow pigs a la Liberals. *He has known for a long time that without a constitutional agreement the abolition of the Senate will never happen.*
> 
> Personally, I would like a proportionally represented Senate (with real powers) to check the excesses of minority elected majorities. But that will not happen.
> 
> *Quite the day today being slandered by fellow ehmacians for things I never said* but hey what do you want from Harper sycophants.


Shows what you know, the cons have *never* proposed the abolition of the Senate, they have proposed reforming it... it is your NDP bedfellows who propose abolishing it.. something *they* know will never happen. 

Slandered? Hardly and oh you said them just not in so many words... why did you take a self imposed vacation jimbo unless you knew damned well what you meant?

Sycophant, oh my, "Methinks thou dost protest too much." Maybe you can convince yourself jimbo but the rest of us know exactly how mean spirited your post was and what you meant.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Certainly,the Liberals had no interest in this at all, so you're in luck with Harper.



In luck as in less spending, smaller government, no cronyism, more openness?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Sorry screature but that doesn't cut it. Harper and co specifically promised NO cronyism. Period. This well it's always been that way is a nonsense excuse.
> 
> If that isn't an admission of defeat...



Time will tell... you could be right.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Time will tell... you could be right.


But I doubt it. We only have Liberal failure as a template here.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> But I doubt it. *We only have Liberal failure as a template here.*


Hilarious that you point this out!


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> In luck as in less spending, smaller government, no cronyism, more openness?
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


+1 :lmao::lmao:

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Shows what you know, the cons have *never* proposed the abolition of the Senate, they have proposed reforming it... it is your NDP bedfellows who propose abolishing it.. something *they* know will never happen.
> 
> Slandered? Hardly and oh you said them just not in so many words... why did you take a self imposed vacation jimbo unless you knew damned well what you meant?
> 
> Sycophant, oh my, "Methinks thou dost protest too much." Maybe you can convince yourself jimbo but the rest of us know exactly how mean spirited your post was and what you meant.


You truly are a piece of work screature. The mere fact that you think I support the NDP is telling. I support something called Canada in a civil context. Something that you are seemingly against even if you voted NDP in the last election.

Goodluck with your BS.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> You truly are a piece of work screature. The mere fact that you think I support the NDP is telling. I support something called Canada in a civil context. Something that you are seemingly against even if you voted NDP in the last election.
> 
> Goodluck with your BS.


Really? I am quite the piece of work when you post:



> Looks like cancer hit the wrong party.


In reference to cancer striking the leader of the *NDP*... Who were you talking about jimbo when you said "Looks like cancer hit the wrong party" jimbo... Hmmm? The Libs, the Bloc... please do tell, inquiring minds want to know.

Your proclivities are well documented, the only thing that is telling is your wishing ill health on those with whom you disagree.

I voted for the best interests of *Canada*, i.e. a federalist candidate who could beat a BQ candidate... despite my personal preferences, that is the level of commitment I have demonstrated.

You? You would rather just wish death and disease on those whom you don't like or disagree... Yeah and *I *am a real piece of work. 

Look in the mirror dude. I mean seriously.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Really? I am quite the piece of work when you post:
> 
> 
> 
> In reference to cancer striking the leader of the *NDP*... Who were you talking about jimbo when you said "Looks like cancer hit the wrong party" jimbo... Hmmm? The Libs, the Bloc... please do tell, inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Your proclivities are well documented, the only thing that is telling is your wishing ill health on those with whom you disagree.
> 
> I voted for the best interests of *Canada*, i.e. a federalist candidate who could beat a BQ candidate... despite my personal preferences, that is the level of commitment I have demonstrated.
> 
> You? You would rather just wish death and disease on those whom you don't like or disagree... Yeah and *I *am a real piece of work.
> 
> Look in the mirror dude. I mean seriously.


As I have previously stated you are deluded and quite frankly I am concerned for your well being.

All the best.

Jimbo


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> As I have previously stated you are deluded and quite frankly *I am concerned for your well being*.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Jimbo


Spare me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Tony Clement calls 15 year in his riding "a Jackass" on twitter*

Tony Clement apologizes for slamming teen on Twitter - Politics - CBC News

Tony, directly calling a 15 year old a jackass on twitter is just not cool for a minister.

Brought to you by JNN - "Tony's caught some chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Smirking Harper immortalized in lego*

Metro - Lego of my Harper boytoy

Now who would pay $50 for this?

Brought to you by JNN - "good chit eh"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*More criticism of TARsands pipe*

The Tyee – An Open Reply to Joe Oliver's Propaganda for the Petro State

Some people will not like this one.

Brought to you by JNN - "who will get the chitty job writing up the report?"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Tony Clement apologizes for slamming teen on Twitter - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Tony, directly calling a 15 year old a jackass on twitter is just not cool for a minister.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Tony's caught some chit"


Tony is such a classy guy!


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> Tony is such a classy guy!


And no sense of subtlety either.


----------



## BigDL

Very interesting! Lisa Raitt now thinks the process of Collective Bargaining works and OGL's Government need not meddle and impose solutions on the parties.

Ottawa rejects call to intervene in Acadian Lines Lockout



CBCNews said:


> The federal government has rejected a call to get involved in a labour dispute that has stopped intercity bus service in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island for more than a month.
> 
> In an email, Labour Minister Lisa Raitt said she's disappointed the two sides in the dispute at Acadian Coach Lines have been unable to reach an agreement.
> 
> "I encourage both parties to return to the bargaining table and reach new collective agreements as soon as possible," she said.
> 
> "The best solution in any labour dispute is the one that the parties reach themselves.


----------



## screature

Voters outraged over NDP MP's decision to join Liberals



> Voters in Lise St-Denis’s Shawinigan riding expressed outrage yesterday after learning that their New Democratic Party MP crossed the floor to join the Liberals.
> 
> “It is completely ridiculous,” said Pierre Huot, director of the student association at Collège Shawinigan. “If she wants to join the Liberals, she should run in a by-election.”...


----------



## screature

Harper shifts the political terrain to turn Conservatives into a new dynasty



> Extraordinary discipline, relentless messaging and a methodical management style have helped Stephen Harper build Canada’s most successful Conservative dynasty since Sir John A. Macdonald.
> 
> That’s the conclusion of a newly published book, predicting Conservatives “will be the dominant party on the Canadian federal scene for years to come.”
> 
> The Canadian Federal Election of 2011, edited by Jon H. Pammet and Christopher Dornan, reports that Harper’s Conservatives have joined an elite group of only six political dynasties that have created periods of sustained dominance in Canada’s history....
> 
> The book, written by 21 scholars and journalists, explains that such dynasties “achieved their preeminence and longevity not by the personal appeal of their leaders ... but rather by an ability to capture a degree of public trust on three main issue areas.”
> 
> These include:
> 
> • The economy.
> 
> • National unity.
> 
> • Preservation of Canada’s social safety net.
> 
> Writers in the book point to the “curious character” of the current governing party which “in many ways replicates the old Progressive Conservative coalition — but with a more discernible ideological centre, an electoral strategy focused on particular regional, ethnic and social groups, and an impressive centralized discipline.”
> 
> They further observe, “it is difficult to distinguish the overall macroeconomic and fiscal policies of the Harper Conservatives from previous Liberal or Progressive Conservative governments.”
> 
> Any religious and social conservatism is “buried within a wider agenda.” Which no doubt helps explain Conservative success.
> 
> Further, the book observes that Harper has used such ideological moderation and incrementalism to create an entirely unprecedented political base for his party in Western Canada and Ontario....


----------



## screature

Former Liberal MP John Nunziata faces Law Society disciplinary charge



> The body that regulates Ontario lawyers has started disciplinary proceedings against John Nunziata, accusing the former Liberal MP and Toronto mayoral candidate of lying under oath.
> 
> It’s the latest development in a story that dates back to 2008, when Nunziata, 57, kicked his ex-wife’s boyfriend, Murray Milthorpe, at a hockey game...


----------



## screature

What to like and fear about the NDP



> ...Listening to them and reading their policy papers (such as they are) reminds Canadians of what to like about the NDP, and what to fear. What to like is the emphasis on inclusion in politics and greater equality of opportunity for the marginalized and dispossessed.
> 
> At a time of growing inequality, it’s imperative that political actors put the issue front and centre on the national agenda. It’s also important that some party keep hammering away on the environment, especially climate change. So, kudos to the NDP for supporting a cap-and-trade system for Canada.
> 
> What’s not to like, however, is the old NDP bugbear: The party is much better at thinking about how to redistribute wealth than create it. Running through the party’s leadership discourse is continuing skepticism about the free market, free trade and the globalized economy. About the only idea that candidates offer for wealth creation is a kind of public investment fund, or a public infrastructure fund. For those of an entrepreneurial bent in Canada or those trying to get ahead on their investments, the party offers nothing.
> 
> Instead, the candidates prefer industrial policies to freer markets, clearly distrust large businesses, whose tax rates they wish to raise sharply, and prefer something called “fair trade” to free trade, which invariably means the party winds up opposing free-trade deals. For a deeply trade-dependent economy such as Canada, that systematic hostility is utterly counterproductive – especially given the importance of diversifying Canada’s excessive dependence on the U.S. market.
> 
> Latent protectionism lies deep in the NDP’s soul. So does the belief that government is there not just to provide public services and to regulate private activity, but to direct private investment, inject public money into enterprises, and generally try to steer the economy with public funds, public regulations and trade protection. It’s a very old recipe....


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> And no sense of subtlety either.


Wasn't there some screeching about in civility when that ndp mp swore on twitter? 

So in true conservative style, Tony ups it a notch.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Former Liberal MP John Nunziata faces Law Society disciplinary charge


This is not the disgraced lawyers thread, this thread is "The Canadian Political Thread." 

Could I be reminded once again how some Ontario lawyer, acting as a private citizen, has relevance to the far East and far West of Canada?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> This is not the disgraced lawyers thread, this thread is "The Canadian Political Thread."
> 
> Could I be reminded once again how some Ontario lawyer, acting as a private citizen, has relevance to the far East and far West of Canada?


He's a Canadian and a famous Liberal. Next?


----------



## Macfury

Good news for Senate reform!!!!!

Appointments give Harper upper hand in Senate-reform battle - The Globe and Mail



> With seven new senators – all appointed by Stephen Harper last Friday and all reliably Conservative – soon to join the Other Place, we can make this out-on-a-limb prediction: The next senators from Saskatchewan and New Brunswick will be elected.
> 
> Last week’s appointments should be sufficient to overcome resistance to the Senate Reform Act from within the Prime Minister’s own Senate caucus, which means the bill will almost certainly become law, probably in the first half of next year.


At last Mr. Harper has the support to overcome Liberal resistance in the Senate!!


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> He's a Canadian and a famous Liberal. Next?


 



> Frank McKenna was appointed Deputy Chair of TD Bank Group on May 1, 2006. He is responsible for supporting the Bank in its customer acquisition strategy, particularly in the area of Wholesale and Commercial Banking. In addition, he represents TD as it works to expand its North American presence as one of the ten largest banks as measured by market capitalization.


You mean like this is exciting and important information for all Canadians? Swanky Franky


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> This is not the disgraced lawyers thread, this thread is "The Canadian Political Thread."
> 
> Could I be reminded once again how some Ontario lawyer, acting as a private citizen, has relevance to the far East and far West of Canada?


He's a former Liberal MP, it's political, next.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> You mean like this is exciting and important information for all Canadians? Swanky Franky


Yeah about as important as a Leggo Harper... suck it up princess.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> He's a former Liberal MP, it's political, next.


Were his actions involved in political matters?

I'd say you're both reaching a bit here. But I think the point that got lost here was the constant screaming of victimization from smasher if anything smelled of off topic.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Yeah about as important as a Leggo Harper... suck it up princess.


Well Swanky Franky is a former Canadian Premier and Ambassador.

With regard to Swanky Franky and OGL, if you shook them up in a bag and dropped the contents on the floor the resulting mess would look rather indistinguishable and not very appealing in my estimation. 

Carry on with the agenda, "it's another brick in the wall."

:clap:


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> were his actions involved in political matters?
> 
> I'd say you're both reaching a bit here. But i think the point that got lost here was the constant screaming of victimization from smasher if anything smelled of off topic.


+1


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Were his actions involved in political matters?
> 
> I'd say you're both reaching a bit here. But I think the point that got lost here was the constant screaming of victimization from smasher if anything smelled of off topic.


Doesn't seem to matter relative to some of the link's being posted by others...It was in direct counter point to jimbo's Leggo Harper post in terms of relevance.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Well Swanky Franky is a former Canadian Premier and Ambassador.
> 
> With regard to Swanky Franky and OGL, if you shook them up in a bag and dropped the contents on the floor the resulting mess would look rather indistinguishable and not very appealing in my estimation.
> 
> *Carry on with the agenda, "it's another brick in the wall."*
> 
> :clap:


Agenda...? You really like to believe in conspiracy theories don't you...

As for adding brick's to walls, you otta know.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Doesn't seem to matter relative to some of the link's being posted by others...It was in direct counter point to jimbo's Leggo Harper post in terms of relevance.


Hmmm, one that involves the current prime minister, and the other, one that involves someone who isn't even in opposition much less government.

Now I I don't really care, but perhaps countering with one that At least involves a current mp or prime minister could help. Or, a chuckle at the absurdity of the story in the first place.

Anyway, it's a nice day out there.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> What to like and fear about the NDP


Nice link. As a long time NDP supporter, I can't find much to disagree with in it.

If ever the NDP had some hope of forming a majority government, I almost certainly wouldn't vote for them for exactly the reasons expressed. However, as an opposition party, their voice has been nothing but good for Canada (IMO).



> What’s not to like, however, is the old NDP bugbear: The party is much better at thinking about how to redistribute wealth than create it.


This is an entirely fair criticism. On the other hand, I don't think it should be the government's role to create wealth. Governments should be redistributing an equitable fraction of the wealth generated by society in order to maintain things like the social safety nets, physical and social infrastructure (by 'social infrastructure' I'm meaning arts & culture), and ecological infrastructure on which society depends (in addition to obvious things like law enforcement, national sovereignty etc.).



> Running through the party’s leadership discourse is continuing skepticism about the free market, free trade and the globalized economy.


And a good thing too. Now more than ever it is clear that, while great at generating economic wealth and efficiencies when managed, the unregulated free market is like a bull in a china shop. Without regulation, the free market can devastate ecosystems, cultures, communities, and do so without generating any sustainable wealth, so it absolutely needs to be viewed with skepticism and scrutiny.

But again, I don't think I'd vote for an NDP government. I've been happy to vote for an NDP opposition that acts to restrain the unbridled free-marketers and corporate shills among the Liberals and Conservatives, but I think the only viable course is a compromise between these extreme positions.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Hmmm, one that involves the current prime minister, and the other, one that involves someone who isn't even in opposition much less government.
> 
> Now I I don't really care, but perhaps countering with one that At least involves a current mp or prime minister could help. Or, a chuckle at the absurdity of the story in the first place.
> 
> Anyway, it's a nice day out there.


It is about as relevant to anything dealing with Canadian politics as the other, and it was in the News, that is about all the relevance that seems to be necessary right now...


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Nice link. As a long time NDP supporter, I can't find much to disagree with in it.
> 
> If ever the NDP had some hope of forming a majority government, I almost certainly wouldn't vote for them for exactly the reasons expressed. However, as an opposition party, their voice has been nothing but good for Canada (IMO).
> 
> This is an entirely fair criticism. On the other hand, I don't think it should be the government's role to create wealth. Governments should be redistributing an equitable fraction of the wealth generated by society in order to maintain things like the social safety nets, physical and social infrastructure (by 'social infrastructure' I'm meaning arts & culture), and ecological infrastructure on which society depends (in addition to obvious things like law enforcement, national sovereignty etc.).
> 
> And a good thing too. Now more than ever it is clear that, while great at generating economic wealth and efficiencies when managed, the unregulated free market is like a bull in a china shop. Without regulation, the free market can devastate ecosystems, cultures, communities, and do so without generating any sustainable wealth, so it absolutely needs to be viewed with skepticism and scrutiny.
> 
> But again, I don't think I'd vote for an NDP government. I've been happy to vote for an NDP opposition that acts to restrain the unbridled free-marketers and corporate shills among the Liberals and Conservatives, but I think the only viable course is a compromise between these extreme positions.


An honest post bryanc I congratulate you for it and in general I agree with your points with the exception of the role of government being to redistribute wealth, which comes as no surprise.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Nice link. As a long time NDP supporter, I can't find much to disagree with in it.
> 
> If ever the NDP had some hope of forming a majority government, I almost certainly wouldn't vote for them for exactly the reasons expressed. However, as an opposition party, their voice has been nothing but good for Canada (IMO).
> 
> 
> 
> This is an entirely fair criticism. On the other hand, I don't think it should be the government's role to create wealth. Governments should be redistributing an equitable fraction of the wealth generated by society in order to maintain things like the social safety nets, physical and social infrastructure (by 'social infrastructure' I'm meaning arts & culture), and ecological infrastructure on which society depends (in addition to obvious things like law enforcement, national sovereignty etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> And a good thing too. Now more than ever it is clear that, while great at generating economic wealth and efficiencies when managed, the unregulated free market is like a bull in a china shop. Without regulation, the free market can devastate ecosystems, cultures, communities, and do so without generating any sustainable wealth, so it absolutely needs to be viewed with skepticism and scrutiny.
> 
> But again, I don't think I'd vote for an NDP government. I've been happy to vote for an NDP opposition that acts to restrain the unbridled free-marketers and corporate shills among the Liberals and Conservatives, but I think the only viable course is a compromise between these extreme positions.


All well and good, but in a majority situation there's little they can do really. This is why I strongly support the idea of only minority governments. None of these parties should enjoy total power, ever. Haven't we learned this now soooo many times?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> All well and good, but in a majority situation there's little they can do really. This is why *I strongly support the idea of only minority governments.* None of these parties should enjoy total power, ever. Haven't we learned this now soooo many times?


This will never happen groove, it is fundamentally undemocratic. 

If the majority of the people vote a certain way then there should be a majority government. Now of course with our 1st past the post system and the way the vote breaks down regionally and people voting "strategically" majority governments can and are formed without a majority of the popular vote, but that is a whole other kettle of fish and question of electoral reform. But to "outlaw" majority governments goes against the fundamental tenets of democracy


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> This will never happen groove, it is fundamentally undemocratic.
> 
> If the majority of the people vote a certain way then there should be a majority government. Now of course with our 1st past the post system and the way the vote breaks down regionally and people voting "strategically" majority governments can and are formed without a majority of the popular vote, but that is a whole other kettle of fish and question of electoral reform. But to "outlaw" majority governments goes against the fundamental tenets of democracy


Agreed. This is simply logical.


----------



## Macfury

That's telling the Americans! I appreciate this sort of boldness, especially after years of gutless Liberal foreign policy:

Harper warns Americans he will ship oil elsewhere | CTV Ottawa



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he has warned American officials that his government is "serious" about selling Canadian oil to Asian markets, after a U.S. political fight put the Keystone XL pipeline project on hold.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> That's telling the Americans! I appreciate this sort of boldness, especially after years of gutless Liberal foreign policy:
> 
> Harper warns Americans he will ship oil elsewhere | CTV Ottawa


are you sure the Americans heard him with his lips so firmly pressed against their ass cheeks?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Bloomberg report on tarsands pipeline*

Controversy mars start of review of Asia pipeline - BusinessWeek

Brought to you by JNN - "all the news that's fit to post"


----------



## screature

Tories waste no time hitting brakes on spending, watchdog finds



> The Conservative government is already cutting costs faster and more deeply than planned, with new data showing Ottawa has quietly trimmed overall government spending by 3 per cent.
> 
> That’s the conclusion of a new report by Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page, which reviewed all government spending over the first six months of the current fiscal year.
> 
> The 3 per cent decrease suggests Ottawa is on track to beat its plan to hold total spending growth to 1.5 per cent this fiscal year.
> 
> The downward spending trend might explain why the Conservatives are now signalling future cuts could be more aggressive than originally planned.
> 
> The government’s 2011 budget laid out a plan that targeted a 5-per-cent cut to the government’s roughly $80-billion direct program spending budget by 2013-14, which works out to a permanent cut of about $4-billion a year.
> 
> But according to the PBO’s analysis, Ottawa is well on its way. Spending on operating expenditures is down 4 per cent and capital spending is down 15 per cent.
> 
> In an interview, Mr. Page said the savings are the result of earlier spending restraint plans. “This environment of austerity seems to have taken hold, and I think you do see that in the numbers,” he said....


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> in general I agree with your points with the exception of the role of government being to redistribute wealth, which comes as no surprise.


When the government collects taxes from you or me, and uses it to pay a police officer (or a school teacher, or a medical doctor, or whatever government employee you care to name), that's redistribution of wealth.

How much should be redistributed and how it should be allocated is obviously a matter of debate, but the fact that all governments are in the business of redistributing wealth is not arguable.

So, unless you're an anarchist (or know of some government that does not collect and spend taxes), I can't see how you can disagree about the government's role in the redistribution of wealth.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> When the government collects taxes from you or me, and uses it to pay a police officer (or a school teacher, or a medical doctor, or whatever government employee you care to name), that's redistribution of wealth.


No, not in the sense of the economic definition. It involves governments moving money from those with more to those with less. I'll agree the definition has been so watered down in the popular press that it is now used to describe any movement of money.


----------



## Macfury

Tories fashion native education system to improve life on reserves - The Globe and Mail



> *Tories fashion native education system to improve life on reserves*
> 
> A First Nations Education Act could arrive before Parliament this year, aimed at breaking the cycle of failure on reserve schools and representing one of the most important and unexpected priorities for the Harper government.
> 
> So far, this new initiative has been masked by accusations and controversy over who’s to blame for the crisis conditions at Attawapiskat, or discussion on whether natives on reserves should be given property rights.
> 
> But native education is where the Conservatives hope to make their mark, and they just might succeed.


This looks like an excellent approach to helping the unfortunate citizens of reserves. Especially after years of Liberal neglect and local inaction by some NDP naysayers.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Time to drop the human rights complaints and sell the tarsands oil to the commies*

Eager to sell Alberta oil, Harper schedules return trip to China - The Globe and Mail

Can someone say: reverse course?!

Brought to you by JNN - "helping to inform ehmacians of flip flops"


----------



## Macfury

Already covered earlier and positively, as this is a good thing.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> When the government collects taxes from you or me, and uses it to pay a police officer (or a school teacher, or a medical doctor, or whatever government employee you care to name), that's redistribution of wealth.
> 
> How much should be redistributed and how it should be allocated is obviously a matter of debate, but the fact that all governments are in the business of redistributing wealth is not arguable.
> 
> So, unless you're an anarchist (or know of some government that does not collect and spend taxes), I can't see how you can disagree about the government's role in the redistribution of wealth.


The government employs people for jobs done and services rendered I don't call that the redistribution of wealth which sounds decidedly like something else altogether. Based on your explanation of your interpretation of the semantics of the words you used I will agree with you but I would not personally choose those words to express what you are saying.

I have never considered my doing a job for someone or a government a "redistribution of wealth" as I am being rightfully compensated for my work. "Redistribution of wealth" sounds like some sort of government contrived scheme to take from the rich to give to the poor without necessarily any work being done in exchange. Not a good choice of words at all IMO even if very strictly and narrowly speaking it may be logically accurate, I don't think it is linguistically accurate for what it means to be employed.


----------



## BigDL

Thankfully we have the legend in his own mind to make the pronouncements, to straighten us out, impinging on our lives for our own good only.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Thankfully we have the legend in his own mind to make the pronouncements, to straighten us out, impinging on our lives for our own good only.


You're perfectly willing to "impinge" on the lives of taxpayers if it buys you the social programs you want. Thankfully, your partt is out the of the loop for awhile.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No, not in the sense of the economic definition. It involves governments moving money from those with more to those with less. I'll agree the definition has been so watered down in the popular press that it is now used to describe any movement of money.


Smasher seems curiously ok with governments moving money from the poor to the rich.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Thankfully we have the legend in his own mind to make the pronouncements, to straighten us out, impinging on our lives for our own good only.


Who exactly are you referring to?


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> "Redistribution of wealth" sounds like some sort of government contrived scheme to take from the rich to give to the poor without necessarily any work being done in exchange.


Well, I think most people would agree that what you're describing sounds like a bad idea. However, when you look into the details of any given government-funded program, it starts to get more complex.

I'm sure that there are some people that would view NSERC funding basic science research as "a government contrived scheme to take money from the tax payers and give it to some egg-head academics who do no work at all."

I would certainly characterize it as "redistribution of wealth" at any rate, and I obviously think it's a good thing.

At any rate I'm sure we agree that all government programs involve the redistribution of wealth at some level, so that is clearly what governments do, so the question is not wether governments should be involved in the redistribution of wealth, but rather how much wealth should they redistribute and how should it be redistributed.

I would argue that the primary difference between the NDP and the Conservatives in this regard is that the NDP try to find ways the government can help the poor, whereas the Conservatives try to find more ways they can help the rich. In my view, the rich don't need any help; they're demonstrably capable of looking out for themselves. So if anything, governments should try to do more to help the poor.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I'm sure that there are some people that would view NSERC funding basic science research as "a government contrived scheme to take money from the tax payers and give it to some egg-head academics who do no work at all."


That's merely spending, not redistribution.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Well, I think most people would agree that what you're describing sounds like a bad idea. However, when you look into the details of any given government-funded program, it starts to get more complex.
> 
> I'm sure that there are some people that would view NSERC funding basic science research as "a government contrived scheme to take money from the tax payers and give it to some egg-head academics who do no work at all."
> 
> I would certainly characterize it as "redistribution of wealth" at any rate, and I obviously think it's a good thing.
> 
> At any rate I'm sure we agree that all government programs involve the redistribution of wealth at some level, so that is clearly what governments do, so the question is not wether governments should be involved in the redistribution of wealth, but rather how much wealth should they redistribute and how should it be redistributed.
> 
> *I would argue that the primary difference between the NDP and the Conservatives in this regard is that the NDP try to find ways the government can help the poor, whereas the Conservatives try to find more ways they can help the rich. In my view, the rich don't need any help; they're demonstrably capable of looking out for themselves. So if anything, governments should try to do more to help the poor.*


I disagree, the primary idea behind modern day conservatism is for less government intervention and to provide an environment that allows for the private sector and individuals to be self sufficient without government support. 

The NDP, ergo socialism, basically believes in a nanny state where individuals need government support to look after them. That is where the difference lies.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> That's merely spending, not redistribution.


Indeed.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The NDP and ergo socialism basically believes in a nanny state where individuals need government support to look after them. That is where the difference lies.


Exactly. The huge disconnect for Progressives, is that they have no faith in the individual to look after themselves, therefore they reject the entire premise.


----------



## Macfury

This made me laugh. The toothless Bob Rae is talking tough:

Bob Rae rallies Liberals for a fight - Politics - CBC News



> *Defends record as Ontario premier*
> 
> He went on to outline his record as NDP premier of Ontario in the 1990s, which the Conservatives often point to and criticize.
> 
> *Rae said he governed during a difficult time when the province faced its worst recession since the Great Depression, leaving him to make make difficult and unpopular decisions. Nevertheless, he said, his government made positive contributions during that difficult time and he makes no apologies for them.
> *
> "If Mr. Harper and his friends, they want to start attacking me, I say fine. You attack me, I attack you right back. That's exactly what you're going to get from the Liberal Party of Canada," he said.


He only wishes the Conservatives were attacking hi--then at least he might make the news once in awhile. He's being politely ignored,


----------



## Macfury

Liberals fail in Canada!

The Bulletin - Google News Archive Search


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON cautioning against slanderous postings on internet and twitter*

Fantino tirade targets ‘slanderous’ Twitter users - The Globe and Mail

Here here sir.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, it rarley gets better than this"


----------



## BigDL

Hooray! Liberals should keep the media from working terribly hard this weekend, therefore the conservative supporters shall be supplied with easy goggling.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> This made me laugh. The toothless Bob Rae is talking tough:
> 
> Bob Rae rallies Liberals for a fight - Politics - CBC News
> 
> He only wishes the Conservatives were attacking hi--then at least he might make the news once in awhile. He's being politely ignored,





> *Rae said he governed during a difficult time when the province faced its worst recession since the Great Depression*, leaving him to make make difficult and unpopular decisions. Nevertheless, he said, his government made positive contributions during that difficult time and he makes no apologies for them.


2008 is now the worst recession since the Great Depression... I wonder how he thinks Dalton did relative to him... despite his faults Dalton managed to get re-elected, something Rae cannot say...

I hope Rae becomes the leader of the federal Libs, it will be good for the country.  beejacon


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Fantino tirade targets ‘slanderous’ Twitter users - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Here here sir.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit, it rarley gets better than this"


I don't think calling someone a jackass is a libellous offence despite Mr. Fantino's remark's. Clement was clearly out of line but Fantino's comments have absolutely nothing to do with the situation... 

Personally I think Fantino has no business being in Cabinet. He is far too "green" and not in the environmental sense.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Liberals fail in Canada!
> 
> The Bulletin - Google News Archive Search


I think the really interesting story on that page was "Fire fighters in pyjamas".


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Hooray! Liberals should keep the media from working terribly hard this weekend, therefore the conservative suppporetes shall be supplied with easy googleing.


What?!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*First nations perspective on TARsands pipe*

Harper government “sidestepping” FNs opposed to pipeline in PR war: chief | APTN National News

Brought to you by JNN - "posting the news as it comes along"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Here come the CON wingnuts again*

MPs have ‘duty’ to debate rights of unborn, backbench Tory argues - The Globe and Mail

Who let the dogs out?

Brought to you by JNN - "exposing the chit again and again"


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> MPs have ‘duty’ to debate rights of unborn, backbench Tory argues - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Who let the dogs out?
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "exposing the chit again and again"


Yep he is a wingnut, it is a PMB that will go nowhere as it will not have Cabinet support... Ruby Dhalla anyone and C-428... every Party has them in Caucus... next...

"JNN dredging the dregs... since the News of the World has gone under".


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper government “sidestepping” FNs opposed to pipeline in PR war: chief | APTN National News
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "posting the news as it comes along"


I read this stuff every day as it is part of my job and I am paid to do so... where do you have the time... No family life? Inquiring minds want to know....


----------



## i-rui

maybe he enjoys being informed?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> maybe he enjoys being informed?


Fair enough, it has become a habit for me to do the same even when on holiday, but feeling the need to incessantly regurgitate it here takes up all that much more time...

At any rate I guess everyone needs a hobby...


----------



## kps

Jimbo is on a mission...:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Yep looks like he's victimizing a few successfully and having a bit o fun.


----------



## Dr T

jimbotelecom said:


> Obviously getting under some thin skins around here. Plenty more to come, simply by broadcasting one atrocious act after another.
> 
> One could always utilize the ignore option or simply move on.
> 
> Ella Fitzgerald cover of the Cole Porter classic is simply beautiful - I've got you under my skin".


I have not paid any attention to this thread since it started, and I say, based on this last one, I am ashamed of you fellow Canadians!

I am proud of our country, I am happy to live my life here, but I would like to know what you sorry lot eke out..


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Here's a good one on imposing limits on democracy*

Stephen Harper is soundproofing our democracy | iPolitics

I fully agree with this piece.

Brought to you by JNN - "I never thought I would thank Mike Harris"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS bashing foreign gays and lesbians*

Ottawa does about-face on same-sex marriage for non-Canadians - The Globe and Mail

Reverse course!!

Brought to you by JNN - "not surprised on this one"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Jeffrey Simpson on CON hypocracy*

‘Foreign money’ is a hypocritical diversion - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "Simpson used to have his chit together sometime he's still spot on"


----------



## Macfury

Fix the links in your googling, jimbo--looks unprofessional.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The huge disconnect for Progressives, is that they have no faith in the individual to look after themselves, therefore they reject the entire premise.


I have no faith in anything. I'm certainly willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I think society should provide as much support and encouragement as we can to help people look after themselves and each other, but it is demonstrably not true that all individuals can look after themselves all the time. Fortunately most of us can most of the time, and we as a society, have sufficient resources to help out those who are having difficulty, so why shouldn't we?

More to the point I have absolutely no faith that profit-motivated corporations will do anything that limits their ability to continue to profit or increase their profits regardless of the damage it does to communities or the environment (indeed, if they are publicly traded they are legally obligated not to), so society depends on government to regulate corporate activities such that they are not damaging to society or the ecosystem upon which we all depend. As our political pendulum swings to the right, this essential role of government is eroded. Given that the pendulum will certainly swing back to the left as the damage becomes intolerable, this shouldn't really be a big deal. The exception, of course, is the environment, which, when damaged, may take tens of thousands of years to recover.


----------



## mrjimmy

Jimbo attacks = ad hominem.

But we all know that.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Ottawa does about-face on same-sex marriage for non-Canadians - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Reverse course!!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "not surprised on this one"


I read this before it was posted here and there is something very wrong with the so called facts of the story.

First a Department of Justice Lawyer does not have the capacity to reverse legislation, nor does the government without going through the legislative process.

Second a Department of Justice Lawyer is not a judge and does not have the power to rule on a particular case.

There is much that is highly questionable in the piece, I will be interested to see what are the actual specifics and truth of the matter, because as it is written it makes no sense and there has to be more to it.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> Jimbo is on a mission...:lmao:


No doubt... To make the Canadian Political Thread his own personal dumping ground.


----------



## screature

Academics defend PM's promotion of oil pipeline
Harper is not overstepping his authority or undermining review process, experts say



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government isn't overstepping its authority by aggressively promoting the Northern Gateway pipe-line and attacking the mega-project's opponents while it is before a quasi-judicial tribunal, says one of Canada's top authorities on governance and political power.
> 
> "This is not just an Alberta project. It goes to the very heart of the country's energy policy," said Donald Savoie, who holds the Canada Research Chair in Public Administration and Governance at the University of Moncton.
> 
> "So I think the prime minister has every right to speak out and speak of its importance - what it means for Western Canada, but also what it means for all of Canada,"...
> 
> Savoie said it's up to the three NEB panelists to ensure the integrity of their process. "It'll be incumbent on those people who sit on the tribunal to make the right call," he said of the panelists now hearing testimony in B.C. "If any of these people have any integrity, they'll call it the way they want."
> 
> He pointed to the late Pierre Elliott Trudeau's well-known public position when the then-prime minister asked the Supreme Court of Canada to rule in 1981 on legalities surrounding the amendment of the Canadian Constitution.
> 
> "Do you think for a moment that the prime minister of the day didn't voice his views? In fact, he asked the court to rush it along," Savoie said.
> 
> "To suggest that the prime minister should be mute on such an important file, I disagree fundamentally."...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> No doubt... To make the Canadian Political Thread his own personal dumping ground.


Sadly, it's too much like those "Occupy" protesters who squat in public. And jimbo is about as regular as a rabbit.


----------



## BigDL

Gotta' love the personal attacks. The non intellectual rigour in the apparent un-defendable positions of Our Glorious Leader's positions speaks volumes.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The non intellectual rigour in the apparent un-defendable positions of Our Glorious Leader's positions speaks volumes.


I think one of the problems you may have is that you see Stephen Harper as "glorious." Conservatives merely think of him as the Prime Minister. 

But why is screature's post "non-intellectual"? Because you disagree with the reasoning? Why don't you debate it in an intellectual fashion and show what stern stuff you're made of?


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> I read this before it was posted here and there is something very wrong with the so called facts of the story.
> 
> First a Department of Justice Lawyer does not have the capacity to reverse legislation, nor does the government without going through the legislative process.
> 
> Second a Department of Justice Lawyer is not a judge and does not have the power to rule on a particular case.
> 
> There is much that is highly questionable in the piece, I will be interested to see what are the actual specifics and truth of the matter, because as it is written it makes no sense and there has to be more to it.


i agree that the article is rather vague on the specifics of the case, but i also don't think it says either of the points you claim it does. it says :



> The reversal of federal policy is revealed in a document filed in a Toronto test case launched recently by a lesbian couple seeking a divorce. Wed in Toronto in 2005, the couple have been told they cannot divorce because they were never really married – a Department of Justice lawyer says their marriage is not legal in Canada since they could not have lawfully wed in Florida or England, where the two partners reside.


but that doesn't mean it's the "law" - simply that a federal lawyer is challenging the legality of their marriage. 

the interesting question is why? is this something he felt that needed to be done and was self directed, or was this something a superior told him to pursue? Is this actually a new policy from the government?

The article doesn't really say either way, but to be fair :



> In an e-mail Tuesday, Mr. Gaudet said he forwarded a request for an interview to his superiors. His department provided no further response.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I think one of the problems you may have is that you see Stephen Harper as "glorious." Conservatives merely think of him as the Prime Minister.
> 
> But why is screature's post "non-intellectual"? Because you disagree with the reasoning? Why don't you debate it in an intellectual fashion and show what stern stuff you're made of?


You first. You're the one crying victim every time jimbo posts a news item.

I don't think anyone will hold their breath though.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i agree that the article is rather vague on the specifics of the case, but i also don't think it says either of the points you claim it does. it says :





> *The reversal of federal policy* is revealed in a document filed in a Toronto test case launched recently by a lesbian couple seeking a divorce. Wed in Toronto in 2005, the couple have been told they cannot divorce *because they were never really married – a Department of Justice lawyer says their marriage is not legal in Canada since they could not have lawfully* wed in Florida or England, where the two partners reside.


Which implys the law is only effectively policy, a law is not policy so the Lawyer can't be changing the law with any stated policy.

Here he is speaking as if he were a judge, at best all his statement could be is an opinion.

That is why I said what I did.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Gotta' love the personal attacks. The non intellectual rigour in the apparent un-defendable positions of Our Glorious Leader's positions speaks volumes.


What personal attacks? The non intellectual rigour? Like your commentary or the random posting of links for the edification of JNN without any commentary other than a glib title? Yeah losts of intellectual rigour there...


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Here he is speaking as if he were a judge, at best all his statement could be is an opinion.
> 
> That is why I said what I did.


i agree, but when that opinion comes from a federal prosecutor and is involved in a legal case, then it starts to take the form of a public policy - unless a superior comes out and says it's not and they drop the case.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i agree, but when that opinion comes from a federal prosecutor and is involved in a legal case, then it starts to take the form of a public policy - unless a superior comes out and says it's not and they drop the case.


Even if it were to take "the form of a public policy" it wouldn't be public policy just because it was uttered by a federal prosecutor on the case.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*yup - all us radicals sayin' told ya so.*

Same-sex stumble feeds conspiracy theories on Harper agenda - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "someone should get in deep chit for this"


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Even if it were to take "the form of a public policy" it wouldn't be public policy just because it was uttered by a federal prosecutor on the case.


it's a legal challenge to the couple's marriage. if it's successful it would set a precedent.

i agree that as this early stage it's not yet actual policy from the government, but if it's allowed to continue then it certainly would be.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Academics defend PM's promotion of oil pipeline
> Harper is not overstepping his authority or undermining review process, experts say


Hardly, the Academic say all Prime Ministers even Pierre Trudeau have a legitimate interest in promoting their agendas. 

I fail to see where he endorses the stifling of public debate. Where does he endorse the Minister's rantings and name calling of possible opponents to the Northern Gateway Project?

Some want their way and their way only, usually these folks are three years old or younger.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Some want their way and their way only, usually these folks are three years old or younger.


Not necessarily as some have posted in this very thread.


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> ...
> Some want their way and their way only, usually these folks are three years old or younger.


That or poll-lie-tishuns


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> That or poll-lie-tishuns


Touché!


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Same-sex stumble feeds conspiracy theories on Harper agenda - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "someone should get in deep chit for this"


Did you even read the article or just the headline?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Hardly, the Academic say all Prime Ministers even Pierre Trudeau have a legitimate interest in promoting their agendas.
> 
> I fail to see where he endorses the stifling of public debate. Where does he endorse the Minister's rantings and name calling of possible opponents to the Northern Gateway Project?
> 
> Some want their way and their way only, usually these folks are three years old or younger.


Talk to the author... it was his title.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it's a legal challenge to the couple's marriage. if it's successful it would set a precedent.
> 
> i agree that as this early stage it's not yet actual policy from the government, but if it's allowed to continue then it certainly would be.


It's a case in Ontario, not before the Federal Court, the Ontario court is trying to pass the buck. 

Why they are going to the legislative branch for an opinion is beyond me as there is supposed to be a separation between the judicial and legislative bodies. They should be going to the Federal Court for an opinion.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> Same-sex stumble feeds conspiracy theories on Harper agenda - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "someone should get in deep chit for this"





screature said:


> Did you even read the article or just the headline?


He simply cherry-picks his preferred headline when other more accurate details are readily available, from his own cherished network, no less:

Same-sex marriage not being reopened, Harper says - Canada - CBC News


----------



## BigDL

> He simply cherry-picks his preferred headline:
> 
> Same-sex marriage not being reopened, Harper says - Canada - CBC News


More to the truth of the matter, perhaps.



eMacMan said:


> That or poll-lie-tishuns


Really? Going to hold up a politician's message track as a full and correct assessment of any given issue?


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> It's a case in Ontario, not before the Federal Court, the Ontario court is trying to pass the buck.
> 
> Why they are going to the legislative branch for an opinion is beyond me as there is supposed to be a separation between the judicial and legislative bodies. They should be going to the Federal Court for an opinion.


here's what the couple's lawyer wrote :



> They can't get divorced in their home jurisdiction because it doesn't recognize the validity of the marriage. They can't get divorced here, even though they were married here, because the Divorce Act has a one-year residency requirement. So we are challenging the residency requirement in a Charter case in order to get them a divorce. After we served our claim on the Federal and Ont governments, the Feds filed the pleading saying that their marriage was never valid.


from :

Discussion: The federal government's reversal of policy on same-sex foreign couples - The Globe and Mail

it's important to note the lawyer also says this is just a legal opinion and not a ruling or anything more serious. It really comes down to how the government handles this now.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> here's what the couple's lawyer wrote :
> 
> 
> 
> from :
> 
> Discussion: The federal government's reversal of policy on same-sex foreign couples - The Globe and Mail
> 
> it's important to note the lawyer also says this is just a legal opinion and not a ruling or anything more serious. It really comes down to how the government handles this now.


Seems the G&M article and the author jumped the gun... at this point it seems really no one has all the facts... just a lot of FUD at this point.


----------



## i-rui

well i agree that alot of important information isn't known, but the G&M requested an interview with the federal lawyer on tuesday and never heard back from the department. When Harper spoke about it this morning he didn't really know much about it either. I don't think a newspaper has to sit on a story for days and days waiting for the governemnt to fill in the details, especially with a government notorious for *not* filling in the details.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> well i agree that alot of important information isn't known, but the G&M requested an interview with the federal lawyer on tuesday and never heard back from the department. When Harper spoke about it this morning he didn't really know much about it either. *I don't think a newspaper has to sit on a story for days and days waiting for the governemnt to fill in the details*, especially with a government notorious for *not* filling in the details.


I disagree, in the past stories were often "sat upon" for weeks or even months until the "truth" was known or at least highly suspected to be the case with ample factual evidence. It is called responsible/ethical journalism.... otherwise it is justly called FUD... from Tuesday to Thursday is also hardly days and days BTW.

Seems to be the way of modern media though, it doesn't matter if the story is factually accurate, just get it out there and let the chips fall where they may, never mind whose life or job you may f**k up along the way.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> here's what the couple's lawyer wrote :
> 
> 
> 
> from :
> 
> Discussion: The federal government's reversal of policy on same-sex foreign couples - The Globe and Mail
> 
> it's important to note the lawyer also says this is just a legal opinion and not a ruling or anything more serious. It really comes down to how the government handles this now.


Story seems to be in the public domain already. And is it a valid issue to be raised? Seems to be a real issue for at least two people in this old world. As the issue unfolds it seems to be a reasonable public policy issue for all Canadians. An issue that might affect the reputation of our country on the world stage because of the circumstances 



screature said:


> I disagree, in the past stories were often "sat upon" for weeks or even months until the "truth" was known or at least highly suspected to be the case with ample factual evidence. It is called responsible/ethical journalism.... otherwise it is justly called FUD... from Tuesday to Thursday is also hardly days and days BTW.
> 
> Seems to be the way of modern media though, it doesn't matter if the story is factually accurate, just get it out there and let the chips fall where they may, never mind whose life or job you may f**k up along the way.


Is the issue prickly for OGL? Should the issue be swept aside until the Government gets its duck in a row? Is the suggestion that the press must now satisfy the talking points and message track of the PMO? 

FUD, really? 

An agenda must followed to its logical conclusion I should think.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Story seems to be in the public domain already. And is it a valid issue to be raised? Seems to be a real issue for at least two people in this old world. As the issue unfolds it seems to be a reasonable public policy issue for all Canadians. An issue that might *effect* the reputation of our country on the world stage because of the circumstances
> 
> Is the issue prickly for OGL? Should the issue be swept aside until the Government gets its duck in a row? Is the suggestion that the press must now satisfy the talking points and message track of the PMO?
> 
> FUD, really?
> 
> An agenda must followed to its logical conclusion I should think.



The truth seems to be a foreign concept to you or at least something you aren't interested in as long as the story makes the gov look bad... seems that is all the reporter at the G&M is interested in....

Yes it is FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt... that is all we have thus far) until the facts are known... i-rui seems to get it... at least he seems willing to acknowledge that the details of the story are fuzzy.

Must you always simply live up to your moniker...? Can you not make a logical post that isn't churlish and snide? Is that too much to ask?

But by all means keep falling back on your well worn OGL blah, blah, blah... 

Ch***t you're worse in your own way than Ezra Levant... at least he is somewhat entertaining...

BTW the word you were looking for is *affect*, not effect... Feel free to call me a jackass and maybe that will make you feel even for the sins of TC... I don't mind, I can take it.


----------



## screature

.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> The truth seems to be a foreign concept to you or at least something you aren't interested in as long as the story makes the gov look bad... seems that is all the reporter at the G&M is interested in....
> 
> Yes it is FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt... that is all we have thus far) until the facts are known... i-rui seems to get it... at least he seems willing to acknowledge that the details of the story are fuzzy.
> 
> Must you always simply live up to your moniker...? Can you not make a logical post that isn't churlish and snide? Is that too much to ask?
> 
> But by all means keep falling back on your well worn OGL blah, blah, blah...
> 
> Ch***t you're worse in your own way than Ezra Levant... at least he is somewhat entertaining...
> 
> BTW the word you were looking for is *affect*, not effect... Feel free to call me a jackass and maybe that will make you feel even for the sins of TC... I don't mind, I can take it.


Thankx to a truly fine editor.


----------



## groovetube

well, back in the great white north (white this morning it seems). 

It's been, yet another, 'quite the week' for Harper. I think regardless of the defences, the technical 'it ain't their fault' arguments, a lot of eyes will be on the Harper government on how this SSM issue is dealt with. And the continued attempts at reopening the abortion issue, only serves to crumble Harper's insistence he won't address it. Perhaps that's more the truth. He won't address it but well, his nutbar MPs can, or will.

This whole pipeline issue completely stinks. Wingnuts who are fine with selling Canada's future on totally throwing it all in the oil basket, which seems to be this government's only path, (which is becoming clearer as we go) isnt going to be as smooth as they wish it to be. The preemptive stabbing already in full swing, enemies already being made in advance of this, I think both our glorious conservatives, and those in the US favourable to this pipeline (in the US) may underestimate the memories of horrendous oil disasters such as the one that played out for months in the gulf of mexico.

Slowly this charade of how mainstream they are, slides away. But, it's first year isn't even over yet. It'll start to get interesting as the government MPs all slowly start to get more and more comfortable in their roles in absolute power, and less interested in what Canadians want.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> I think both our glorious conservatives, and those in the US favourable to this pipeline (in the US) may underestimate the memories of horrendous oil disasters


Gee... ya think?

When Enbridge is claiming that their chances of a major oil spill are "1 in 1500 years", it's time to come up with a new, much bigger word, for "revisionist history."


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Gee... ya think?
> 
> When Enbridge is claiming that their chances of a major oil spill are "1 in 1500 years", it's time to come up with a new, much bigger word, for "revisionist history."


I know, definitely understated. It's amazing to see the segment of the population just completely ignorant of reality.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Gee... ya think?
> 
> When Enbridge is claiming that their chances of a major oil spill are "1 in 1500 years", it's time to come up with a new, much bigger word, for "revisionist history."


bryanc: link to the "1 in 1500 years" years please.


----------



## SINC

Anyone else notice the people who released the graphic and illustrated it at the top with the traditional barrel of oil measurement, resorted to changing the amounts to gallons for maximum effect in the information? Nothing like a little sensationalism to support the cause.


----------



## groovetube

maximum effect? So just what -is- acceptable sinc? 

For one thing, most people are aware of how much a gallon is, but probably since they're not oil workers or work in that industry, likely are less likely to know just how much a barrel is. 

So I would argue the oil spill apologists are in general, minimizing the amounts by using the barrel measurement because it certainly sounds less disastrous. And you'll also note the barrel measurement is cealry noted in the second line.


----------



## SINC

You can paint it any colour you wish gt, but if it walks likke a duck . . .


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> maximum effect? So just what -is- acceptable sinc?
> 
> For one thing, most people are aware of how much a gallon is, but probably since they're not oil workers or work in that industry, likely are less likely to know just how much a barrel is.
> 
> So I would argue the oil spill apologists are in general, minimizing the amounts by using the barrel measurement because it certainly sounds less disastrous. And you'll also note the barrel measurement is cealry noted in the second line.


Hardly true at all since they fail to define the gallon as US or Imperial. In this case they have used US gallons. Most Canadians would be thinking imperial gallons and assume the spill is roughly 20% bigger than it really is.

Barrel is the official unit of measurement for oil. Use it.


----------



## MLeh

So, how much oil is actually produced and transported in a day? What is the 'spill percentage' through various methods of transport? I know that _each_ of the facilities in Fort McMurray averages between 100,000 and 150,000 barrels per day. (You may convert that to gallons if you like, although for maximum effect I like to use litres. Each facility produces up to 24 Million litres per day.) Percentage-wise, consumers spill more by having oil dripping from their vehicles onto their driveways. How much gas/diesel fuel is spilt each day in collisions on our highways?

As long as people use oil for products and transportation, there will need to be a method of transporting the oil _somewhere_. Pipelines have a lesser impact and potential for contamination than the alternatives. Make sure they're regulated, obviously, but don't be stupid with the facts.

Sorry: please don't let facts and reality detract from the continuing rhetoric. Carry on.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Anyone else notice the people who released the graphic and illustrated it at the top with the traditional barrel of oil measurement, resorted to changing the amounts to gallons for maximum effect in the information? Nothing like a little sensationalism to support the cause.


was the graphic changed? when i see it it has the barrel amount written underneath the gallons.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> was the graphic changed? when i see it it has the barrel amount written underneath the gallons.


No, it wasn't changed. My point was the lead figures were purposely converted to make it appear much worse than it actually was, then converted back to barrels. The top illustration is clearly portraying barrels which should have been the only measurement used.


----------



## Macfury

I don't think the overall spill record looks that bad. The big beef is supposed to be that some employee spoke off the cuff. For all we know they could have been quoting the odds for a spill of a certain size. This is more FUD.


----------



## i-rui

splitting hairs. the barrel measurement is still there.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> splitting hairs. the barrel measurement is still there.


Spitting FUD, first. I've seen the gallon measurement frequently used to strike fear into the hearts of the ignorant.


----------



## MLeh

Macfury said:


> Spitting FUD, first. I've seen the gallon measurement frequently used to strike fear into the hearts of the ignorant.


Which is why litres is even better. beejacon


----------



## eMacMan

I have some serious objections to both proposed pipelines.

Unless I am missing something the product to be shipped is very similar to good old bunker oil. Stuff that's so thick that even in summer it has to be heated in order to flow through pipelines. At the other end prices paid will be more along the prices paid for bunker oil than for light sweet crude.

Why not go ahead and build refineries on the spot? Cannot possibly make air or water down stream any worse than current operations. Refined products would be easier and probably safer to transport, and command a significantly higher price at the other end. 

What is being proposed is the same concept as shipping logs abroad rather than milling them in Canada. 

I strongly favour exporting the final product but keeping the jobs here.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Spitting FUD, first. I've seen the gallon measurement frequently used to strike fear into the hearts of the ignorant.


the ignorant who can't read the barrel measurement clearly written below it?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I have some serious objections to both proposed pipelines.
> 
> Unless I am missing something the product to be shipped is very similar to good old bunker oil. Stuff that's so thick that even in summer it has to be heated in order to flow through pipelines. At the other end prices paid will be more along the prices paid for bunker oil than for light sweet crude.
> 
> Why not go ahead and build refineries on the spot? Cannot possibly make air or water down stream any worse than current operations. Refined products would be easier and probably safer to transport, and command a significantly higher price at the other end.
> 
> What is being proposed is the same concept as shipping logs abroad rather than milling them in Canada.
> 
> I strongly favour exporting the final product but keeping the jobs here.


In most case, Canada makes more money by exporting the oil because it can't compete at refining--it would add too much to the cost of the oil.


----------



## i-rui

eMacMan said:


> I have some serious objections to both proposed pipelines.
> 
> Unless I am missing something the product to be shipped is very similar to good old bunker oil. Stuff that's so thick that even in summer it has to be heated in order to flow through pipelines. At the other end prices paid will be more along the prices paid for bunker oil than for light sweet crude.
> 
> Why not go ahead and build refineries on the spot? Cannot possibly make air or water down stream any worse than current operations. Refined products would be easier and probably safer to transport, and command a significantly higher price at the other end.
> 
> What is being proposed is the same concept as shipping logs abroad rather than milling them in Canada.
> 
> I strongly favour exporting the final product but keeping the jobs here.


i think thats the ndp position.



Macfury said:


> In most case, Canada makes more money by exporting the oil because it can't compete at refining--it would add too much to the cost of the oil.


i wouldn't say "Canada makes more money", but rather the "oil companies make more money".


----------



## i-rui

the justice minister has come out and said that the same sex marriages of foreign couples are valid, so it seems that the federal prosecutor was just making a silly legal argument and has been overruled by his boss.

i'll give credit to the government for clearing this up relatively quickly.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> You can paint it any colour you wish gt, but if it walks likke a duck . . .


you're right. oil spills, are oil spills. Very good point. Regardless of whether you specify it as a million gallons (which I have a better idea of what that could be...) or 24 thousand barrels.

you would have a more productive time of picking flycrap out of pepper.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i'll give credit to the government for clearing this up relatively quickly.


Your even-handedness here has been noted.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Another CON flipflop - Harper the salt creature*

Sodium reduction: A proud moment that went nowhere - The Globe and Mail

Reverse Course!!!!!!


----------



## SINC

^^

Lame, gets the scrapping the bottom of the barrel award for the day.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> I have some serious objections to both proposed pipelines.
> 
> Unless I am missing something the product to be shipped is very similar to good old bunker oil. Stuff that's so thick that even in summer it has to be heated in order to flow through pipelines. At the other end prices paid will be more along the prices paid for bunker oil than for light sweet crude.
> 
> Why not go ahead and build refineries on the spot? Cannot possibly make air or water down stream any worse than current operations. Refined products would be easier and probably safer to transport, and command a significantly higher price at the other end.
> 
> What is being proposed is the same concept as shipping logs abroad rather than milling them in Canada.
> 
> I strongly favour exporting the final product but keeping the jobs here.





Macfury said:


> In most case, Canada makes more money by exporting the oil because it can't compete at refining--it would add too much to the cost of the oil.


Rather the oil companies make more money. Unless of course you believe that the oil companies own Canada outright. Oil companies are quite capable of refining their product in Canada at a price that will sell on the world market. 

All at the expense of jobs in Canada. A glance South of the Border should reveal the long term effects of that kind of economic thinking.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Rather the oil companies make more money. Unless of course you believe that the oil companies own Canada outright. Oil companies are quite capable of refining their product in Canada at a price that will sell on the world market.
> 
> All at the expense of jobs in Canada. A glance South of the Border should reveal the long term effects of that kind of economic thinking.


Building refineries in Alberta and operating them does not provide the same return on investment. Are you expecting them to divert cash from a successful investment to one that is less successful? A refining company is perfectly welcome to offer its services to the oil producers.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Your even-handedness here has been noted.


thanks. 

i should also point out that i was disappointed that the minister blamed the liberals for leaving a "gap" in the law . that was pure political misdirection. (to be expected and is par for the course in politics.)

the blame really should've been on the federal lawyer who came up with that ridiculous legal argument, and i hope he got reamed out over it.


----------



## screature

*Clarifying the law on same sex marriage*

Seems instead of consulting a lawyer at the Justice Department the G&M should have contacted the Justice Minister:



> The Minister of Justice Rob Nicholson made the following comments during a speech today at the Canadian Club in Toronto:
> 
> "I want to be very clear that our government has no intention of reopening the debate on the definition of marriage. The case reported in the media involves the fact that, under current law, some marriages performed in Canada could not be dissolved in Canada.
> 
> This is a legislative gap left by the Liberal government of the day when the law was changed in 2005. *The confusion and pain resulting from this gap is completely unfair to those who are affected.*
> 
> *I want to make it very clear that, in our government’s view, these marriages should be valid. We will change the Civil Marriage Act so that any marriages performed in Canada that aren't recognized in the couple's home jurisdiction will be recognized in Canada.*
> 
> This will apply to all marriages performed in Canada. We have been clear that we have no desire to reopen this issue – both myself and the Prime Minister consider this debate to be closed."


----------



## i-rui

it took the justice minister a day to come up with the statement, and he pathetically blamed the incident on a "gap" left by the liberals. 

to be clear, that "gap" applies to every divorce (same sex or traditional) and isn't what was at *the center* of the commotion. it was the hair-brained legal argument put forth by one of the minister's lawyers where he specifically argued that the marriage was not recognized by canada. that argument has *nothing* to do with any "gap" left by the liberals.

the G&M is in the business of reporting the news, not spinning stories to suit the government of the day.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> it took the justice minister a day to come up with the statement, and he pathetically blamed the incident on a "gap" left by the liberals.
> 
> to be clear, that "gap" applies to every divorce (same sex or traditional) and isn't what was at *the center* of the commotion. it was the hair-brained legal argument put forth by one of the minister's lawyers where he specifically argued that the marriage was not recognized by canada. that argument has *nothing* to do with any "gap" left by the liberals.
> 
> the G&M is in the business of reporting the news, not spinning stories to suit the government of the day.


Now Now i-rui it is not fair to comment on issues in the news, heck it is not fair to comment on situations before the courts. It takes time, stories and comments should be sat on. The plan must come together before OGL can let us know and what G&M should report on.

The problem, the issue is now clear, shiny ball, it's the liberal fault, pure and simple. If it were not true people could lose their $h!t otherwise.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Now Now i-rui it is not fair to comment on issues in the news, heck it is not fair to comment on situations before the courts. It takes time, stories and comments should be sat on. The plan must come together before OGL can let us know and what G&M should report on.
> 
> The problem, the issue is now clear, shiny ball, it's the liberal fault, pure and simple. If it were not true people could lose their $h!t otherwise.


BigDL, please spend some time on your posts before submitting them. The above is a mess.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> BigDL, please spend some time on your posts before submitting them. The above is a mess.


So! What is your point?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Now Now i-rui it is not fair to comment on issues in the news, heck it is not fair to comment on situations before the courts. It takes time, stories and comments should be sat on. The plan must come together before OGL can let us know and what G&M should report on.
> 
> The problem, the issue is now clear, shiny ball, it's the liberal fault, pure and simple. If it were not true people could lose their $h!t otherwise.


if i-rui's post is correct and I can see it likely is, then it seems the shiny ball has and will be swallowed by plenty. That's why they do it.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON message: How dare you vote for anyone but OGL*

Conservative ridings benefit from Service Canada closures - Politics - CBC News

Minister took her shades off in the house for the first time. Looks less like a thug.

Brought to you by JNN - "a chit off the ol' block".


----------



## jimbotelecom

Behind Harper CON paranoia from an Albertan perspective

http://www.albertadiary.ca/2012/01/ground-zero-of-cold-war-is-right-in.html

Brought to you by JNN - "another pile of chit"


----------



## Macfury

And, to show how Liberal backroom dealing results in raising unelectable leaders. Bob Rae promised he wouldn't use his interim leadership position to leverage an actual run at the Prime Ministership. I hope he goes for it and wins: it will result in a second majority government for the Conservatives.

Rae won't rule out a run for the Liberal leadership | CTV Ottawa


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Conservative ridings benefit from Service Canada closures - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Minister took her shades off in the house for the first time. Looks less like a thug.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "a chit off the ol' block".


Roll out the Pork Barrel and OGL will have barrels of fun. Roll out the Oil Barrel and OGL will have barrels of fun...


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Roll out the Pork Barrel and OGL will have barrels of fun. Roll out the Oil Barrel and OGL will have barrels of fun...


Tough crowd here, but I swear these gems are cracking 'em up down in Moncton.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> And, to show how Liberal backroom dealing results in raising unelectable leaders. Bob Rae promised he wouldn't use his interim leadership position to leverage an actual run at the Prime Ministership. I hope he goes for it and wins: it will result in a second majority government for the Conservatives.
> 
> Rae won't rule out a run for the Liberal leadership | CTV Ottawa


 :clap: As I predicted the Liberal Convention would provide easy pick'ens for some.

Hey everyone please don't bring up Lil' Petey's signed agreement not to forsake the Progressives and side with the Conservatives  that would be just too easy.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> So! What is your point?


he never actually has one, he's the self appointed grammar teacher. If you were to look back, 98% of all the spelling/grammar shouting is all him. It's what they resort to when they have zilch to contribute generally.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> :clap: As I predicted the Liberal Convention would provide easy pick'ens for some.


It's a Liberal convention featuring Bob Rae and his backroom operators. An idiot could have made that prediction.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it took the justice minister a day to come up with the statement, and he pathetically blamed the incident on a "gap" left by the liberals.
> 
> to be clear, that "gap" applies to every divorce (same sex or traditional) and isn't what was at *the center* of the commotion. it was the hair-brained legal argument put forth by one of the minister's lawyers where he specifically argued that the marriage was not recognized by canada. that argument has *nothing* to do with any "gap" left by the liberals.
> 
> the G&M is in the business of reporting the news, not spinning stories to suit the government of the day.



Since when are you a lawyer that you know whether or not the "gap" has anything to do with the legislation from 2005?

The G&M did a pathetic job by publishing/posting a story before they had all the facts. It isn't about spinning the government's line, it is about getting all sides of a story, otherwise called balanced journalism/reporting something many here seem to have no interest in.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Conservative ridings benefit from Service Canada closures - Politics - CBC News
> 
> *Minister took her shades off in the house for the first time.* Looks less like a thug.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "a chit off the ol' block".


She had an eye condition that required her to wear sunglasses to protect her eyes from the bright lights in the House and has had the condition successfully treated and BTW she hasn't been wearing them for over two years.


----------



## mrjimmy

She was our own little Roy Orbison.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> She was our own little Roy Orbison.


Don't besmirch Roy like that.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Don't besmirch Roy like that.


You're right. What was I thinking.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> ...
> 
> The G&M did a pathetic job by publishing/posting a story before they had all the facts. It isn't about spinning the government's line, it is about getting all sides of a story, otherwise called balanced journalism/reporting something many here seem to have no interest in.


Absolutely correct nasty G&Msies bushwhacking OGL on a day designed by the PMO to exalt OGL. 

A day designed to bushwhack the Liberals and steal the attention away from their rebuilding efforts. It is only a convention, not a law being broken.

The very idea. Why should the Minister or Prime Minister be responsible for the actions of underlings? 

Why when push came to shove Bev Oda was forced to take responsibility for the "not" after blaming underlings. Let's not forget that Minister and the OGL had plenty of time to avoid being in contempt of Parliament on that issue and the Prime Minister was responsible for that Minister "not" resigning.

The very idea of a free press reporting as it sees fit, I mean really!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Absolutely correct nasty G&Msies bushwhacking OGL on a day designed by the PMO to exalt OGL.
> 
> It is only a convention, not a law being broken.


Now law was being broken regarding gay marriage. The post is a non sequitur.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...*The very idea of a free press reporting as it sees fit*, I mean really!


They do report as they see fit and often do a terrible job of it. 

Unlike some here who take everything the media prints as gospel some others have the capacity for critical thought.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> They do report as they see fit and often do a terrible job of it.
> 
> Unlike some here who take everything the media prints as gospel some others have the capacity for critical thought.


I don't know that DL is necessarily implying the G&M did a good job of it. Certainly no where close to taking it as the good lord's gospel!


----------



## groovetube

It's funny. Why is it whenever there's some "grassroots" pro oil organization boasting no governmental ties, that somehow, when you start to lift the rocks and the bugs begin to scurry, there is evidence of ties to the government?

Coincidence? Ethical Oil address the same as Conservative MP Tony Clement's old campaign | The Vancouver Observer

oh. Right. Nothing to see here. Move along.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Now law was being broken regarding gay marriage. The post is a non sequitur.


First my quotation is amended. Then I'm chided for the meaning intended by the author of the amended quotation.

A master wordsmith out foxed himself. Amazing!

groove, I am seeing, that, that you have already noted. 



groovetube said:


> he never actually has one, he's the self appointed grammar teacher. If you were to look back, 98% of all the spelling/grammar shouting is all him. It's what they resort to when they have zilch to contribute generally.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> It's funny. Why is it whenever there's some "grassroots" pro oil organization boasting no governmental ties, that somehow, when you start to lift the rocks and the bugs begin to scurry, there is evidence of ties to the government?
> 
> Coincidence? Ethical Oil address the same as Conservative MP Tony Clement's old campaign | The Vancouver Observer
> 
> oh. Right. Nothing to see here. Move along.


Yes and look at this link and watch the video at the top of the story and at around the 00:4:45 the question is asked "where Ethical Oil gets its funding" the avoiding of the answer starts at 00:05:05.

It just gets curiouser and couriouser


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Yes and look at this link and watch the video at the top of the story and at around the 00:4:45 the question is asked "where Ethical Oil gets its funding" the avoiding of the answer starts at 00:05:05.
> 
> It just gets curiouser and couriouser


Nothing curious about it. Many of these groups on both sides of the aisle receive some degree of government funding. I'd prefer nobody got anything, but there you have it.


----------



## groovetube

there are anti oil groups getting government funding?

Clearly upset by the revelation, smasher tosses out yet another blanket vague thought stir fry without any specifics. 

So it must be so.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Nothing curious about it. Many of these groups on both sides of the aisle receive some degree of government funding. I'd prefer nobody got anything, but there you have it.


Where did you acquire the notion of government funding?

The questioned asked of the Ethical Oil spokesperson "was Enbridge funding Ethical Oil?"


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Where did you acquire the notion of government funding?
> 
> The questioned asked of the Ethical Oil spokesperson "was Enbridge funding Ethical Oil?"


You didn't say that there were government ties. Someone else did.

However, even if Enbridge were involved--big deal.

Friends Of The Earth - A Canadian Environmental Charity



> Become a Friend of the Earth!
> 
> FoE has been able to carry out its mission of research, education and advocacy with the support of over 10,000 loyal individual supporters across Canada, as well as support from foundations, government grants, selected corporations and dedicated volunteers. Thank you!


Does it matter that FoE receives corporate funding and government grants? Will some of the corporate funders benefit from their funding? Of course!

About EthicalOil.org | Ethical Oil



> We are a registered non-profit NGO and do not accept money from any government agency. We are non-partisan and believe that the Canadian values reflected in Ethical Oil appeal to people from all walks of life and across the political spectrum.
> 
> *We do accept donations from individuals and companies, including those working to produce ethical oil.*


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Since when are you a lawyer that you know whether or not the "gap" has anything to do with the legislation from 2005?


because i've read up on it? by the same token since when are you a lawyer that you know that this supposed "gap" has anything to do with the ssm law passed by the liberals? why is a vague statement by a minister from your party of choice suddenly the gospel truth?

the legal argument put forth by the federal lawyer was that the lesbian couple's marriage was not recognized by canada because it wasn't recognized in their place of domicile. by the same reasoning a saudi woman who married a non-arab american in canada wouldn't have her marriage recognized by canada because she doesn't live here. so what does that have to do with the ssm law passed by the liberals? 

before the liberals ever passed the law in the apartheid era, if a south african black man was to marry a south african white woman in canada, then under this absurd legal argument canada wouldn't recognize their marriage. so again, what does that have to do with ssm?

it's a silly legal argument because it somehow says that another country's marriage laws trumps canada's own marriage laws. i actually wouldn't have a problem if the federal lawyer just stuck to the argument that the couple would have to live in canada for a year before they could file a divorce. there's a reason for that requirement to be there. however, let's be clear that that position is entirely different than saying, canada wouldn't recognize their marriage at all.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You didn't say that there were government ties. Someone else did.
> 
> However, even if Enbridge were involved--big deal.
> 
> Friends Of The Earth - A Canadian Environmental Charity
> 
> 
> 
> Does it matter that FoE receives corporate funding and government grants? Will some of the corporate funders benefit from their funsing? Of course!


why be so vague about it?

We all can likely figure out the major benefit that say, Enbridge would see from supporting a "grassroots" cause like ethicaloil, even though they try to keep it all hush hush.

Though interesting one doesn't need to do such heavy sleuthing to uncover corp/gov grants to FoE, though such a difference may not down on you likely.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *because i've read up on it*? by the same token since when are you a lawyer t*hat you know that this supposed "gap" has anything to do with the ssm law passed by the liberals?* why is a vague statement by *a minister* from your party of choice suddenly the gospel truth?
> 
> *the legal argument put forth by the federal lawyer was that the lesbian couple's marriage was not recognized by canada because it wasn't recognized in their place of domicile. by the same reasoning a saudi woman who married a non-arab american in canada wouldn't have her marriage recognized by canada because she doesn't live here. so what does that have to do with the ssm law passed by the liberals?
> 
> before the liberals ever passed the law in the apartheid era, if a south african black man was to marry a south african white woman in canada, then under this absurd legal argument canada wouldn't recognize their marriage. so again, what does that have to do with ssm?
> 
> it's a silly legal argument because it somehow says that another country's marriage laws trumps canada's own marriage laws.* i actually wouldn't have a problem if the federal lawyer just stuck to the argument that the couple would have to live in canada for a year before they could file a divorce. there's a reason for that requirement to be there. however, let's be clear that that position is entirely different than saying, canada doesn't recognize their marriage at all.


Doesn't make you a lawyer does it?

I never even came close to attesting to anything of the sort... you were the one who offered a dilettantes interpretation as though it had some basis in expert understanding of the law and the relevant legislation i.e. coming from a lawyer.

Uhh... the Minister of Justice's statement means a heeluva lot more than a departmental employee in the hierarchy of things... why didn't the G&M go straight to the highest lawyer in the land (Attorney General) instead of one of his peons?

Exactly. It shows the reasoning was unsound (or at least lacked understanding/knowledge) and that of a junior member (relatively speaking) of the department... strictly speaking he should never have spoken to the media but deferred the inquiry to his superiors... thanks to the article and his statements he will most likely be demoted/moved to another department or fired.

God forbid a government employee would ever break rank, as it has never been known to happen... Such a damning indictment of the ruling government. 

Even I, in my lowly position, know enough when asked by the media for a comment from my boss and he is unavailable and then pressed further for *my* comment, to say, "sorry you will have to speak to "so and so". 

The rest of your post speaks to the same point. He spoke out of turn and above his rank.... as was my suspicion from the beginning.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Though interesting one doesn't need to do such heavy sleuthing to uncover corp/gov grants to FoE, though such a difference may not down on you likely.


Read the link to Ethical Oil above. Do a little damned research. It's just as easy to find on the Ethical Oil website.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Read the link to Ethical Oil above. Do a little damned research. It's just as easy to find on the Ethical Oil website.





> We are a registered non-profit NGO and *do not accept money from any government agency. We are non-partisan* and believe that the Canadian values reflected in Ethical Oil appeal to people from all walks of life and across the political spectrum.


really. Refer back to the things beginning to surface and try again.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Nothing curious about it. Many of these groups on both sides of the aisle receive some degree of government funding. I'd prefer nobody got anything, but there you have it.





BigDL said:


> Where did you acquire the notion of government funding?
> 
> The questioned asked of the Ethical Oil spokesperson "was Enbridge funding Ethical Oil?"





Macfury said:


> You didn't say that there were government ties. Someone else did.
> 
> However, even if Enbridge were involved--big deal.
> 
> Friends Of The Earth - A Canadian Environmental Charity
> 
> 
> 
> Does it matter that FoE receives corporate funding and government grants? Will some of the corporate funders benefit from their funding? Of course!
> 
> About EthicalOil.org | Ethical Oil





groovetube said:


> really. Refer back to the things beginning to surface and try again.


groove excellent suggestion.

Seems the Atom Smasher has created a chain reaction to block out the truth of the "other" that introduced the circular logic of who introduced the idea of government funding of Ethical Oil. He say *"it wasn't me, it wasn't me, it must have been some other body, cause you know child, It wasn't me.

*to paraphrase Geo. Thorogood


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> groove excellent suggestion.
> 
> Seems the Atom Smasher has created a chain reaction to block out the truth of the "other" that introduced the circular logic of who introduced the idea of government funding of Ethical Oil. He say *"it wasn't me, it wasn't me, it must have been some other body, cause you know child, It wasn't me.
> 
> *to paraphrase Geo. Thorogood


not a suggestion that'll be considered anytime soon I'm afraid.

Saw this on twitter tonight. From Conan O'brien. Hilarious.



> The Tea Party is still looking for the “anti-Romney.” They’re so desperate, they’re starting to look at President Obama.


:lmao:


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






here's the youtube vid for people to lazy to click on the link (like i was)

comical.



BigDL said:


> Yes and look at this link and watch the video at the top of the story and at around the 00:4:45 the question is asked "where Ethical Oil gets its funding" the avoiding of the answer starts at 00:05:05.
> 
> It just gets curiouser and couriouser


----------



## i-rui

it turns out that Kathryn Marshall (spokeswoman for ethical oil) is married to Hamish Marshall, Stephen Harper's former strategic planning manager.

but ofcourse ethical oil says it's a "non-partisan" organization.

lol

more here :

Emma Pullman | Cozy Ties: Astroturf 'Ethical Oil' and Conservative Alliance to Promote Tar Sands Expansion


----------



## groovetube

do a little damned research my man!

heh.


----------



## BigDL

Just gets curiouser and curiouser


----------



## mrjimmy

I see Kathryn Marshall is becoming our own little Ann Coulter.

She should brush upon how to avoid questions. A pretty face will only get you so far.


----------



## Macfury

Pretty funny to see the progressives falling all over themselves on this one. Make hay with it today, because nobody will remember what you're talking about two weeks for now.


----------



## groovetube

awwwww. sour grapes. You all have fun now, because tomorrow no one will care about you!

So there.

c'mon fury after all the chiding you do about contributing here.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Sad to see such a misguided youth completely out of touch with her own generation.
Tarsands money will buy, pay for and and ruin people.

Very sad.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Sad to see such a misguided youth completely out of touch with her own generation.
> Tarsands money will buy, pay for and and ruin people.
> 
> Very sad.


Get while the gettn's good, likely the mantra the rugged youthful individualist or I'm getting mine 'cause you'er too lazy to see the opportunity.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Pretty funny to see the progressives falling all over themselves on this one. Make hay with it today, because nobody will remember what you're talking about two weeks for now.


What's even funnier is that the term 'progressives' has been co-opted by the Right and used in a feebly derogatory manner.

Funny, I always thought it's opposite to be more damning by definition. 

... and if we 'lefties' are progressives, than the righties must be, you guessed it....

regressives.

Seems bout right.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> What's even funnier is that the term 'progressives' has been co-opted by the Right and used in a feebly derogatory manner.
> 
> Funny, I always thought it's opposite to be more damning by definition.
> 
> ... and if we 'lefties' are progressives, than the righties must be, you guessed it....
> 
> regressives.
> 
> Seems bout right.



The terms progressive, regressive, etc. no longer have the resonance/meaning they once did, times change... 

In the 21st century in a "Global Village", economic policy that in any way promotes protectionism can easily be called regressive and/or anachronistic, but we all know which side of the political fence promotes such measures.


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> What's even funnier is that the term 'progressives' has been co-opted by the Right and used in a feebly derogatory manner.
> 
> Funny, I always thought it's opposite to be more damning by definition.
> 
> ... and if we 'lefties' are progressives, than the righties must be, you guessed it....
> 
> regressives.
> 
> Seems bout right.


:clap:

Now cut that out mrjimmy! Stop using logic and facts to bolster arguments, that's not the least bit fair for the "Right People."


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Sad to see such a misguided youth completely out of touch with her own generation.
> *Tarsands money will buy, pay for and and ruin people.*
> 
> Very sad.


What does this even mean?


----------



## Macfury

I think it's supposed to be some kind of tone poem.


----------



## i-rui

back on topic....

Pipeline project a gateway to disaster



> Since we’re using strong language, let’s call the Conservative government’s eagerness to ship tarsands oil to China through the Northern Gateway Pipeline what it is: humiliating, irresponsible and short-sighted.
> 
> That may sound “radical,” perhaps; unpatriotic to some. But our government, in our name, is ready to accelerate climate change, imperil pristine British Columbia wilderness, risk a catastrophic oil spill on the Pacific coast — and for what? The almighty dollar. Specifically, for highly uncertain, and certainly exaggerated, economic gains.
> 
> Even taken at face value, the advertised spinoffs from this project are modest compared to the enormous profits (mostly) international oil companies will recoup. Enbridge, the Canadian company proposing the 1,117-kilometre pipeline from Edmonton to Kitimat on the B.C. coast, says some 3,000 jobs will be created during the peak construction period.
> 
> But these are jobs of short duration; a pipeline, by its nature, is mostly inert once built. The company promises 62,000 person hours overall, and 1,150 long-term jobs, including 104 for those operating the pipeline and another 113 at the port at Kitimat, where giant oil tankers will load. Critics claim these numbers are inflated. Even if they aren’t, they amount to crumbs next to the overall investment and potential environmental costs.
> 
> Governments and First Nations bands will notionally benefit, too; the company’s website says B.C. will collect $1.2 billion in tax revenues — over 30 years, however, which doesn’t sound as impressive. Alberta gets half a billion over the same period. And the company claims $270 billion will be added to Canada’s GDP overall.
> 
> These figures are speculative, given the shifting price of oil and changeable tax and royalty rates, but megaprojects like this do generate jobs across the country — including, in this case, in struggling Ontario. But against this we must calculate the costs, public and private, of cleaning up devastating oil spills, repairing contaminated watersheds, and policing tanker traffic through Kitimat’s treacherous shoals.
> 
> There will be leaks. The Citizen’s Glen McGregor uncovered U.S. figures that list 150 leaks from Enbridge pipelines over the years. The most publicized occurred in 2010, when 20,000 barrels of oil escaped, some into Michigan’s waterways. There was a small gas leak from an Enbridge pipeline near Louisiana this week.
> 
> The Northern Gateway route crosses mountainous territory in central B.C., some of it prone to landslides, and some 600 streams alive with salmon and other fish. No matter how carefully crossings are built, accidents are inevitable — and potentially ruinous to an $800-million commercial fishery, to tourism, and the fresh water First Nations depend on.
> 
> As for the giant oil tankers that will ply the shallow, stormy and often fogbound channels and fiords around Kitimat, loaded with oil bound for Asia, that is another disaster in the making. And it only takes one, as the 1989 Exxon Valdez, and the ruinous spill in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010 prove. Claims that tankers safely manoeuvre the Great Lakes daily are irrelevant; these are different, more difficult, waters.
> 
> Every megaproject has its environmental costs, but this one is particularly pernicious because it will triple production from Alberta’s oilsands, pumping ever more greenhouse gas into the world’s atmosphere. And is this still “ethical” oil, when the primary customer is China?
> 
> Rather than answering these valid concerns, the Conservative government has chosen to vilify pipeline critics — environmentalists and unnamed “others” who are portrayed, comically, as agents of foreign interests.
> 
> It is true, as government claims, that many green activists want to end our dependence on fossil fuels; it is not true that most favour an immediate shutdown of the tarsands.
> 
> For years, Green Party leader Elizabeth May, and others, have been urging governments to regulate emissions; to force oil companies to find technological fixes; to direct some oil profits to green alternatives; to prepare for the future economy, not retreat to our traditional role as hewers of wood, drawers of water, exporters of jobs, despoilers of nature.
> 
> As David Suzuki argues, this battle is not the environment versus the economy, jobs versus a few remote salmon runs. Fundamentally, it is about safeguarding the air and water we depend on for life.
> 
> Nor will rejecting the pipeline — much less rerouting it to Prince Rupert’s more accessible port, as some have suggested — destroy the economy. There is still oil in the ground, still pipeline capacity; there is still a hungry market to the south. Many environmentalists want production slowed, not stopped — or accelerated — to allow time to implement cleaner alternatives.
> 
> They risk being overpowered by Big Money (foreign and domestic) and Harper’s obdurate refusal to compromise. Cabinet can, and will, overrule the National Energy Board, which is hearing the case, in the unlikely event that the NEB objects.
> 
> Pipeline opponents will win only if Canadians, en masse, rally to defend their beautiful, blessed country — rather than stepping politely aside while it is plundered again for short-term gain.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Pipeline project a gateway to disaster


----------



## Macfury

I'm more inclined to steamroller anything David Suzuki supports.


----------



## groovetube

without any 'damned research' I imagine.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I'm more inclined to steamroller anything David Suzuki supports.


 Obdurate I should imagine.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Obdurate I should imagine.


Wow! Look in a mirror after making that remark.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Wow! Look in a mirror after making that remark.


Indeed! But Suzuki has also been obdurate as long as I remember.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - Health Care - Reverse Course!*

http://rabble.ca/news/2012/01/harper-governments-abandonment-federal-responsibility-health-care

Whoa there little dooogie...reverse course!

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit I thought I saw a puddy cat."


----------



## Macfury

The above is a positive development. Let the provinces determine what they think is the best way to spend the money. I appreciate Stephen Harper's willingness to step back and allow provinces to develop local solutions.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON Fletcher taking leave*

Tory minister steps down | Canada | News | London Free Press

Brought to you by JNN - "good luck Minister Fletcher"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Chop Chop Chop - CONS are a choppin'*

Ottawa axes food inspectors added in wake of deadly deli-meat outbreak - The Globe and Mail

It's a plan and those Canadians that get sick will have to wait in line at the emerge dept.

Brought to you by JNN - "glad I don't eat those meats"


----------



## SINC

I think we should petition the mayor to start a new thread. The JNN network has completely and utterly destroyed this one. What a shame that one person can be so persistent with multiple crap posts. I'm done and JNN is on ignore.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I think we should petition the mayor to start a new thread. The JNN network has completely and utterly destroyed this one. What a shame that one person can be so persistent with multiple crap posts. I'm done and JNN is on ignore.


I'm pretty tired of it as well SINC. Some people don't know when to retire a bad joke. These posts have no context and stink like SPAM.


----------



## groovetube

He's merely posting news links. Post your own if you don't like the ones he's posting.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I'm pretty tired of it as well SINC. Some people don't know when to retire a bad joke. These posts have no context and stink like SPAM.


And some people fail to even recognize a bad joke.

Too bad about JNN being on ignore. He takes some real interesting pics in the photo thread which I will no longer see. That of course is his problem when he values a bad joke over quality posts he is obviously capable of, for sure.


----------



## BigDL

Sad really! 

When the information on the door step is unpalatable, blaming the information, not the maker of the news.

I think Don MClean said it best, 

Bad news on the doorstep
I couldn't take one more step

Bye, bye Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
Them good ole boys were drinking whiskey in Rye
Singin' this'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> And some people fail to even recognize a bad joke.
> 
> Too bad about JNN being on ignore. He takes some real interesting pics in the photo thread which I will no longer see. That of course is his problem when he values a bad joke over quality posts he is obviously capable of, for sure.


Sorry Don, but given the overall quality of todays politicians, it would be almost impossible for any serious discussion about politics and politicians not to boil down to little more than a bad joke. 

At the price we are paying for them, it is essential to laugh at them. Otherwise we would be perpetually in tears.


----------



## groovetube

and we'll be paying even more now with piles of more losers appointed to the senate, and plans to add more of those jokers in parliament.

Nothing like smaller government eh?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Sorry Don, but given the overall quality of todays politicians, it would be almost impossible for any serious discussion about politics and politicians not to boil down to little more than a bad joke.
> 
> At the price we are paying for them, it is essential to laugh at them. Otherwise we would be perpetually in tears.


I'm all for relevant content, but not just lazy SPAM links.


----------



## groovetube

globe and mail and other major newspaper sites and articles 'SPAM' links?

Who knew?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I'm done and JNN is on ignore.


SINC. I agree with this. When the only solution offered by the hoi polloi who inhabit this thread is to combat thread crapping by adding more crap, then the thread is finished.

I've opened a new thread: 

The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread - ehMac.ca

so that this one can remain a dumping ground for context-free Google News Alerts.


----------



## BigDL

Sounds a lot like "I'm taking my ball and I'm going home.

JNN please keep up the good work. I enjoy the diverse material.

So we are now faced with the prospect of two solitudes not base on linguistics, but based on sensitivity to criticism of OGL.

"The Canadian Political Thread" is authorized and sanctioned thread by His Honour the Mayor. 

So not such a long time ago in a universe far far away form the centre:

..we are faced with the breakaway "The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread - ehMac.ca." This Rebel Alliance will attempt to save the Republic and the Universe.


----------



## groovetube

I say we bring some 'discussion' of current political events there too then.

This Im crapped about the posts I don't like so I'll take my ball and go somewhere else is simply childish.


----------



## bryanc

I like the JNN postings. I rarely have time to browse news, and it's nice to have links to be able to quickly find out what mischief OGL is up to.

I also find the windging from the arch Conservatives amusing. So keep 'em coming.


----------



## screature

*NDP behind dirty tricks campaign in Lise St-Denis’ riding*

NDP behind dirty tricks campaign in Lise St-Denis’ riding



> The New Democratic Party was behind a mysterious robocall campaign that deluged Quebec MP Lise St-Denis’ offices last week with phone calls from constituents upset with her jump from the NDP to the Liberals, iPolitics has learned.
> 
> “I’m just calling to confirm that those were done by the party,” said NDP spokeswoman Sally Housser, responding to a request for an interview sent to Strategic Communications Inc, the company that placed the calls...
> 
> 
> “I find it immoral to block phone lines that belong to the government,” she said. “They don’t have a right to do that. It is prohibited to use phone lines that belong to the House of Commons for political action.”
> 
> St-Denis said her office is checking the legality of the NDP’s actions.
> 
> The comments come after St-Denis’ riding offices and Parliament Hill office were paralyzed Wednesday and Thursday with hundreds of phone calls. A robocall campaign asked constituents whether they agreed with St-Denis’ decision to cross the floor and those who pressed one to indicate they disagreed with her decision were automatically transferred to one of St-Denis’ offices.
> 
> France Beaulieu, riding assistant to St-Denis said so many phone calls came in that it overloaded phone lines, preventing constituents seeking help from the MP from reaching the office.
> 
> Beaulieu estimates 300-400 calls were placed, Housser said more than 1,000 constituents were transferred to the MPs offices after pressing one.
> 
> Housser said the script for the phone calls did not indicate that the calls were being made on behalf of the NDP. She said the party has retained a list of the phone numbers of those who indicated they disagreed with St. Denis’ jump to the Liberals and it could be used by the party in the future for fundraising or campaigning.
> 
> Housser said the NDP didn’t break any rules and the tactic is one that the party has used in the past.
> 
> She refused to say how much the robocall campaign cost.
> 
> Housser said the party informed Interim Leader Nycole Turmel of the campaign but her signoff was not necessary. Caucus members were not informed.
> 
> Housser’s revelation comes only a day after the NDP’s Quebec caucus chair Guy Caron categorically denied in an interview with iPolitics that the NDP had anything to do with phone campaign in St-Denis’ riding.
> 
> “This is not our way of doing things so I would be extremely surprised if it came from us,” said Caron.
> 
> However, the phone numbers shown on call displays corresponds to Strategic Communications Inc. – a company based in Vancouver and Toronto that has done work in the past for a number of progressive non-profit groups and for the NDP.
> 
> St-Denis said it was “dishonest” for the calls to not mention they were being made on behalf of the NDP....


----------



## screature

*Premiers don’t need slush fund to innovate in health care*

Premiers don’t need slush fund to innovate in health care 
G&M

This article is bang on.



> Even as economic necessity stares the provinces in the face, Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall is proposing an “innovation fund” for medicare, and Nova Scotia Premier Darrell Dexter says he won’t have enough money to innovate because the seniors population is growing so quickly.
> 
> Mr. Wall and Mr. Dexter have it backward. Financial necessity is the best spur to innovation, not a slush fund labelled Innovation. But the premiers, even those who had seemed to welcome a unilateral federal funding plan, can’t seem to focus on the next steps to building a more innovative, agile, cost-effective health-care system. Not to mention one of higher quality.
> 
> The provinces don’t need to, and shouldn’t have to go to Ottawa for permission to innovate. The process would be time-consuming and distant from local concerns. In fact, the previous 10-year health accord overseen by Liberal prime minister Paul Martin was supposed to have bought $41-billion of innovation. It didn’t.
> 
> But financial necessity isn’t something that anyone seems prepared for. The federal government promised to give 6 per cent a year in annual increases in health-care transfer payments for each of the next three years. After that, depending on economic growth, increases will be a minimum of 3 per cent a year, and possibly a fair bit more. The day of reckoning seems so far off that the provinces feel they can afford to use up the oxygen in the room, as Mr. Wall put it, on a variety of demands – whether an innovation fund or health transfers geared to the age of their population. (British Columbia Premier Christy Clark also wants age to be given its due.)
> 
> Mr. Wall says he took hope from a letter to the provinces from Federal Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq. But Ms. Aglukkaq’s letter talked about working together to make the health system more sustainable and accountable.
> 
> The ball (or perhaps the IV drip) is in the provinces’ court, as Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Monday. They should be using the available oxygen and time to find new ways to cut waiting lists, add electronic records, adapt family care, develop home care and so much more. An Innovation Fund is not the mother of invention. Necessity is.


----------



## Ottawaman

groovetube said:


> I say we bring some 'discussion' of current political events there too then.
> 
> This Im crapped about the posts I don't like so I'll take my ball and go somewhere else is simply childish.


You have to understand that some of the polloi are a bit more hoi than others.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Consider option of the ol' ignore list*

For my part I plan to keep on posting. I've listened to the critique and adopted the JNN logo and work "chit" into my posts as much as I can. I have accommodated. I have also shown a spirit of compromise and overall I act congenially. 

Other than that, I'm just performing good public service by shining a bright light on some of the reprehensible actions of Stephen Harper and the CONS.

More to come. Stay tuned!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Office of Religious Freedoms be damned - We got oil to sell to the commies!*

Ewart: Stephen Harper cools relations with Dalai Lama as he woos China

Reverse course on religious freedoms. Flip Flop. Whoooa Nellie!

Brought to you by JNN - "helping move the chit pile along"


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Ewart: Stephen Harper cools relations with Dalai Lama as he woos China
> 
> Reverse course on religious freedoms. Flip Flop. Whoooa Nellie!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "helping move the chit pile along"


What are talking about, this has nothing to do with religious freedom. What a load of hogwash. 

It is a dumbass article trying to connect things where there is little to no connection.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Ewart: Stephen Harper cools relations with Dalai Lama as he woos China
> 
> Reverse course on religious freedoms. Flip Flop. Whoooa Nellie!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "helping move the chit pile along"


So much for the concern of human rights in China.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> What are talking about, this has nothing to do with religious freedom. What a load of hogwash.


Have you forgotten about the huge fanfare Harper and co made about being so concerned about China's human rights issues and the embracing of the Dalai Lama?

No need for this now it seems. The Dalai lama served his purpose...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> So much for the concern of human rights in China.


China is and has been Canada's 2nd largest trading partner for several years. Some times talks are bout trade and sometimes they are about human rights, they don't and aren't always about both.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Nervous tootsies on selling out to the commies!*

China has our forests, now we're sending our oilfields too | Full Comment | National Post

Jobs Jobs Jobs it's good for the economy we're not a big wilderness park

Brought to you by JNN - "chit I'm shocked"


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Have you forgotten about the huge fanfare Harper and co made about being so concerned about China's human rights issues and the embracing of the Dalai Lama?
> 
> No need for this now it seems. The Dalai lama served his purpose...


Again... just because those issues weren't discussed doesn't mean they aren't still off concern it just wasn't on the agenda for this meeting... Exactly what purpose did the Dali Lama serve to Harper?


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Some times talks are bout trade and sometimes they are about human rights, they don't and aren't always about both.


it seems for the last few years, with China, it's only been about one of them.


----------



## i-rui

i thought this article was bang on :

The minister, the pipeline, and the national interest | iPolitics



> Given the economic insecurity felt across the country, it is a position that would seem to have some short-term political merit. But it is hard to believe that a majority of Canadians would take such a narrow view, particularly in the long-term. Many Canadians, having begun with an open mind on the pipeline, won’t take well the suggestion that their questions about the impacts of the project make them holders of a “radical ideology”. Concerns and questions about the negative impacts of the project are more than legitimate, and most of us believe that they need to be raised. There will, of course, be differences of opinion in how to balance those interests in such a project, but the hearings exist as forum for such differences to be aired and debated.
> 
> And, as with the letter itself, Canadians may wonder about why it is that the government sees itself as the protector of such a narrowly defined view of their collective interests. Economic interests in this country have all the resources they need to make their case on this project, and any number of other issues. But it is the government’s role to consider those as part of a larger view of Canada’s “national interest”, and to promote decisions that reflect the broad range of views inherent in a democracy like ours. That is the least we should expect from a national government.
> 
> The letter brings to mind the quote attributed to U.S. Defense Secretary Charles Wilson, who famously said that “what’s good for General Motors is good for the country”. That’s about as plain a statement of how the government can confuse corporate and economic interests with national ones as one can make. It may be, in this case, that what is good for Enbridge is good for Canada. But taking the position that Enbridge’s interests automatically align with Canada’s “national interest” is not something Canadians want their government to do, and it may end up being something the government comes to regret.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it seems for the last few years with China it's only been about one of them.


So... every dog has it's day...


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> So much for the concern of human rights in China.


If you're gonna create a petrocracy you have a market that is going to lead you around by the nose.

China got the pent up demand and OGL got the goods, he gets the (black) gold we get the shaft, as does the environment, human rights and democracy.

Starting down the road of killing opposition and democracy in order to build the infrastructure for the OGL's great petrocracy.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Again... just because those issues weren't discussed doesn't mean they aren't still off concern it just wasn't on the agenda for this meeting... Exactly what purpose did the Dali Lama serve to Harper?


c'mon screature. It's plain as day to anyone. Many people called it correctly when they pointed out the hypocrisy of Harper when he slammed the Chretien liberals for failing to address human rights issues and cozying up to China.

Now, we're beginning to see this hypocrisy in action. Denying that it's occurring is really, sticking one's head in the sand.

There has been certainly, one very correct observation, that Harper truly is quite a brilliant politician.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> c'mon screature. It's plain as day to anyone. Many people called it correctly when they pointed out the hypocrisy of Harper when he slammed the Chretien liberals for failing to address human rights issues and cozying up to China.
> 
> Now, we're beginning to see this hypocrisy in action. Denying that it's occurring is really, sticking one's head in the sand.
> 
> There has been certainly, one very correct observation, that Harper truly is quite a brilliant politician.


The only reason why they are going to China is because of Keystone everyone needs a plan B and it doesn't mean that human rights are off the table because of it.


----------



## Macfury

screature, I'd advise against sticking your head into this hornet's nest of confused thinking. When the argument proponent don't even understand the reference points of the arguments they're on their hind legs about, you need to invest fart too much energy in the fray. You can't undo years of educational neglect with a dozen instructional posts.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> screature, I'd advise against sticking your head into this hornet's nest of confused thinking. When the argument proponent don't even understand the reference points of the arguments they're on their hind legs about, you need to invest fart too much energy in the fray. You can't undo years of educational neglect with a dozen instructional posts.


perhaps you can jump in and clarify the issue head on rather continuing to make snide remarks as is your constant MO.

screature and I are actually debating something, we may disagree, and may not come to a satisfactory agreement in the ned, but I think we're grown up enough to deal with it and move on without your childish backended nonsense.

Perhaps you can actually just TRY to contribute SOMETHING without the constant moaning and passive aggressive jabs.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The only reason why the are going to China is because of Keystone everyone needs a plan B and it doesn't mean that human rights are off the table because of it.


well you're more optimistic than I am. Time will tell.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well you're more optimistic than I am. Time will tell.


Seems so and yes time will tell...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> perhaps you can jump in and clarify the issue head on rather continuing to make snide remarks as is your constant MO.
> 
> screature and I are actually debating something, we may disagree, and may not come to a satisfactory agreement in the ned, but I think we're grown up enough to deal with it and move on without your childish backended nonsense.
> 
> Perhaps you can actually just TRY to contribute SOMETHING without the constant moaning and passive aggressive jabs.


Who says I was talking about you?

I credit you for putting more work into formulating arguments recently, but you need to work harder at developing cogent posts before I can engage with you. 

Sorry.


----------



## groovetube

I can only hope that you continue to be befuddled by my posts and others.

It isn't as if you have provided anything of more value, and less "word salady" than anyone else here. You seem to be like the parrot that looks in the mirror singing "pretty bird! PRETTY BIRD!" No one cares. It's a freaking -forum-.

eh?

But you still engage quite regularly, whether directly, or the with passive aggressive method which you seem to have adopted of late.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I can only hope that you continue to be befuddled by my posts and others.
> 
> It isn't as if you have provided anything of more value, and less "word salady" than anyone else here. You seem to be like the parrot that looks in the mirror singing "pretty bird! PRETTY BIRD!" No one cares. It's a freaking -forum-.
> 
> eh?
> 
> But you still engage quite regularly, whether directly, or the with passive aggressive method which you seem to have adopted of late.


Sorry, my mind's made up on this.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Again... just because those issues weren't discussed doesn't mean they aren't still off concern it just wasn't on the agenda for this meeting... Exactly what purpose did the Dali Lama serve to Harper?


I believe the fallacious argument here is that unless one cuts off all relations with China, then meeting wit the Dalai Lama is a publicity stunt. Not much, but there you have it.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Sorry, my mind's made up on this.


I don't think you have made up your mind about any of it. You still engage, quite frequently, but in a cowardly sort of passive aggressive fashion. So, really, all you've made your mind up about, is to run scared throwing jabs out without actually contributing anything at all really. Sort of like the guy who hides behind the door of his bedroom, peeking his head out to toss a jab out across the hall, making sure certain others are in earshot. Which is ironic given your constant whinging about others not contributing. Which is why I point this out.



Macfury said:


> I believe the fallacious argument here is that unless one cuts off all relations with China, then meeting wit the Dalai Lama is a publicity stunt. Not much, but there you have it.


I would invite you to point out where anyone has suggested our government should cut off any or all relations with China. It seems you have just made this silly notion up, without reading anything here. Which surprises me, given your cries for more content and relevant arguments. If you wish for more substantial content, you'll just have to show you are willing to actually read it.

In case you are actually listening, you might discover that what was being referred to, was the loud announcements from our 'new government' how -they- are the ones most interested in China's human rights issues, making it a big point to publicly bring this up (when it mattered to be showy to our electorate as a minority government), and it was the liberals, who were cozying up to China. Damn those hypocritical liberals eh?

Fancy the conservatives being a little hypocritical here too? Oh but this just isn't possible, is it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I don't think you have made up your mind about any of it. You still engage, quite frequently, but in a cowardly sort of passive aggressive fashion. So, really, all you've made your mind up about, is to run scared throwing jabs out without actually contributing anything at all really. Sort of like the guy who hides behind the door of his bedroom, peeking his head out to toss a jab out across the hall, making sure certain others are in earshot. Which is ironic given your constant whinging about others not contributing. Which is why I point this out.
> 
> 
> 
> I would invite you to point out where anyone has suggested our government should cut off any or all relations with China. It seems you have just made this silly notion up, without reading anything here. Which surprises me, given your cries for more content and relevant arguments. If you wish for more substantial content, you'll just have to show you are willing to actually read it.
> 
> In case you are actually listening, you might discover that what was being referred to, was the loud announcements from our 'new government' how -they- are the ones most interested in China's human rights issues, making it a big point to publicly bring this up (when it mattered to be showy to our electorate as a minority government), and it was the liberals, who were cozying up to China. Damn those hypocritical liberals eh?
> 
> Fancy the conservatives being a little hypocritical here too? Oh but this just isn't possible, is it.


Yes, that was understood. However, since you're missing any notion of how governments work to improve the human rights situations in other countries--much of it behind the scenes--I can't engage with you on this. 

Sorry.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yes, that was understood. However, since you're missing any notion of how governments work to improve the human rights situations in other countries--much of it behind the scenes--I can't engage with you on this.
> 
> Sorry.


My, you place such high stakes here don't you?

This little dance you play out that somehow your opinion is the only correct one and you aren't willing to divulge the details is funny.

Either you are capable of contributing to a discussion or you aren't. Standing up in the sandbox and yelling to everyone that you don't like when people disagree with you is silly. 

It's kinda like ripping a bandaid, you can do it, it's only painful for a second. Come on, join the human race, it isn't that bad. And if someone disagrees and says something rather distasteful in your opinion, magically, this is a forum on the internet, and all you have to do, it close the browser, go make a hot cup of tea, and pretend it didn't happen.

Amazingly enough, no one will have lost an arm in the process.

As for your tiny attempt at addressing the issue, I think its a rather well worn defence of either party that what the government is doing is for, the good of human rights. If you were watching closely, I didn't so much make an issue of that, as I did the pompous announcements of how the Harperites were the human rights champions compared to the murderous liberals who cozied to the Chinese without much regard for human rights.

Pay attention please.

And yes I'm dishing it back a little.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> My, you place such high stakes here don't you?
> 
> This little dance you play out that somehow your opinion is the only correct one and you aren't willing to divulge the details is funny.
> 
> Either you are capable of contributing to a discussion or you aren't. Standing up in the sandbox and yelling to everyone that you don't like when people disagree with you is silly.
> 
> It's kinda like ripping a bandaid, you can do it, it's only painful for a second. Come on, join the human race, it isn't that bad. And if someone disagrees and says something rather distasteful in your opinion, magically, this is a forum on the internet, and all you have to do, it close the browser, go make a hot cup of tea, and pretend it didn't happen.
> 
> Amazingly enough, no one will have lost an arm in the process.
> 
> As for your tiny attempt at addressing the issue, I think its a rather well worn defence of either party that what the government is doing is for, the good of human rights. If you were watching closely, I didn't so much make an issue of that, as I did the pompous announcements of how the Harperites were the human rights champions compared to the murderous liberals who cozied to the Chinese without much regard for human rights.
> 
> Pay attention please.
> 
> And yes I'm dishing it back a little.


Sorry.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Sorry.


Not my cross to bear bub. I don't know why you're apologizing to me.

I think you need to realize, this is an internet forum. Not your TA group.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Little doubt we have an agitating PM - Harper CON*

Stephen Harper needles Thomas Mulcair over his dual French-Canadian citizenship | News | National Post

Nice guy!

Brought to you by JNN - " helping to alienate OGL daily".


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON Harper - We're creating jobs!*

Harper to lead cross-country spending blitz | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

Reverse course - stimulus spending is good!

Brought to you by JNN - "Year's of chit ahead".


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper to lead cross-country spending blitz | Canada | News | Toronto Sun
> 
> Reverse course - stimulus spending is good!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Year's of chit ahead".


good on you for diversifying to approved right wing rags.

Now, the news item. Man, this news oughta really rile up the true libertarians eh?
EH???


----------



## groovetube

3... 2... 1...


Say it wid me now... "Da wascally wiberals woulda spent more"

Thanks for indulging me


----------



## screature

This thread has gone to hell in a hand cart...


----------



## groovetube

It's a political thread. It tends to do that every 5 or 10 pages or so.

Tomorrow's a new day.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> This thread has gone to hell in a hand cart...


We are talking about politicians, I doubt that any other outcome is even remotely possible.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Looks like a good place for runnin' tankers*

Yeah let's make sure we limit public comment on this here route.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Not my cross to bear bub. I don't know why you're apologizing to me.
> 
> I think you need to realize, this is an internet forum. Not your TA group.


GT, think of it as a gift!


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> We are talking about politicians, I doubt that any other outcome is even remotely possible.


Sadly, all too true for some politicians. C'est la vie. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> GT, think of it as a gift!


hah! a gift! For someone who snipes at anyone who dares misspell a word, or not edit their grammar according to his 'standards', and whines and jabs everyone for not providing thoughtful well reasoned posts (in his estimation) with links and proof, after 250 some pages do you recall many those coming from him?

Other than the snide 3rd party passive aggressive remarks about others being ignorant or part of some club 'in the know' or some other crap. You would think that for someone who regularly boasts about such higher learning and such a command of the English language, that they would be horrified at the prospect of someone like Rob Ford who can barely string two sentences together becoming mayor of Canada's biggest city.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> hah! a gift! For someone who snipes at anyone who dares misspell a word, or not edit their grammar according to his 'standards', and whines and jabs everyone for not providing thoughtful well reasoned posts (in his estimation) with links and proof, after 250 some pages do you recall many those coming from him?
> 
> Other than the snide 3rd party passive aggressive remarks about others being ignorant or part of some club 'in the know' or some other crap. You would think that for someone who regularly boasts about such higher learning and such a command of the English language, that they would be horrified at the prospect of someone like Rob Ford who can barely string two sentences together becoming mayor of Canada's biggest city.


Hah! A gift! For someone who snipes at anyone who dares misspell a word, or not edit his or her grammar according to his "standards," and whines and jabs at everyone for not providing thoughtful _well-reasoned_ posts (in his estimation) with links and proof, after 250 some pages do you recall many of those coming from him?

Other than the snide third-party passive aggressive remarks about others being ignorant or part of some club that is "in the know" or some other crap. You would think that for someone who regularly boasts about such higher learning and such a command of the English language, that they would be horrified at the prospect of someone like Rob Ford, who can barely string two sentences together, becoming mayor of Canada's biggest city.


Sentence structure and spelling much improved. However, pay more attention to punctuation. Avoid use of word "crap."


----------



## groovetube

I'm afraid you'll have to get used to this world of people typing out posts on a tiny auto correcting iphone screen that often results in some interesting variations.

However, I 'suppose', there are. all kinds of; different reasons why"" people might lurk: in the political thread.

now hopefully back on topic.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*A little publik opinion collecting courtesy of everyone's favourite - that's right -*

*CBC!!!*

Community reaction to Harper's stance on pipeline debate, Iran, healthcare - Your Community

brought to you by JNN - "helping to alienate the nattering nabobs of negativity - chit!"


----------



## kps

SUNTV!!!!

*Ezra nails it!!!!!*

Watch it here!

*[Brought to you by ALTNN]*


----------



## i-rui

that was worse than fox news. 

at least there's hot chicks lying to the viewers on that network. we get some ugly dude with glasses lying to us on sun tv.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS Fail!*

To Harper’s ‘profound disappointment,’ Obama rejects Keystone - The Globe and Mail

So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye, to you and you and you and you and you!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER created agency wasting millions and doing nothing*

EI financing agency spends millions doing nothing - Politics - CBC News

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, what a waste eh"


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> that was worse than fox news.
> 
> at least there's hot chicks lying to the viewers on that network. we get some ugly dude with glasses lying to us on sun tv.


Of course they were lies...only the CBC tells the truth.:lmao:


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> So long, farewell, *avidizane*, goodbye, to you and you and you and you and you!


WTF...is that supposed to be "Auf wiedersehen"???


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> WTF...is that supposed to be "Auf wiedersehen"???


Thanks...hey can I go after you for copyright infringement!

Trudeau did it with class. Times have changed. Fuddle duddle.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Thanks...hey can I go after you for copyright infringement!
> 
> Trudeau did it with class. Times have changed. Fuddle duddle.


Q1/ No Problemo,,,,

Q2/ _Turdeau_ has been dead for a loooong time....


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> SUNTV!!!!
> 
> *Ezra nails it!!!!!*
> 
> Watch it here!
> 
> *[Brought to you by ALTNN]*


Ezra Levant, who's suddenly so concerned about the ethics of dealing with the opec countries for oil?

Harper who is shaking in his shoes about Iran and there capability to use nuclear weapons (when is even Israel has openly said they know Iran does NOT possess nuclear weapons...) to drive home a point that America needs his*cough* Canada's oil!

Harper, Canada's tarsands salesman.


----------



## kps

Lilley gets it.

Bureaucrats gunning for rifle owners



> Firearms that are reclassified and seized, like the AP-80, are surrendered without any compensation. When the government takes your personal property, don't you think it should at least pay you for it?
> 
> There is also a problem with allowing the police to decide what is allowed and what is banned while they themselves are enforcing the laws.
> 
> We elect politicians to make law and it's the role of police and judges to enforce the law. This system has it all messed up.
> 
> Would we allow this when it comes to traffic violations and let police forces set and change speed limits?
> 
> No.
> 
> Would we allow the police to decide which substances are considered narcotics and which ones Canadians are legally allowed to consume?
> 
> No, and if anyone tried you can bet the media would be up in arms over this.
> 
> "Harper government takes hard line against soft drugs," would scream the headlines.
> 
> Where is the outrage over the government allowing police to confiscate private property? It doesn't exist.
> 
> Instead they are chasing a story about a foreign lesbian couple who got married in Canada and are now complaining they can't get divorced because they do not live here.
> 
> Public Safety Minister Vic Toews was asked about this gun registry mess on Sun News Network and defended the current situation.
> 
> "It is not a decision that I make as a politician, it's something that the police and classification experts make," Toews said.
> 
> I'm guessing people who backed the Conservatives over their promise to scrap the gun registry would have problems with this.
> 
> It's time for Toews and the rest of the Harper government to wake up and fix this mess.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Of course they were lies...only the CBC tells the truth.:lmao:


no, pretty much sunTV has the lock on the lies. Not even the nationalpost stoops to their level. Not even close.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Ezra Levant, who's suddenly so concerned about the ethics of dealing with the opec countries for oil?
> 
> Harper who is shaking in his shoes about Iran and there capability to use nuclear weapons *(when is even Israel has openly said they know Iran does NOT possess nuclear weapons...) *to drive home a point that America needs his*cough* Canada's oil!


That's 'cause the Israeli Mosad keeps assassinating their nu-clear scientists.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> no, pretty much sunTV has the lock on the lies. Not even the nationalpost stoops to their level. Not even close.


The unfiltered truth hurts,eh? Typical lefties always screaming lies, but when the CBC is caught fabricating lies it's accepted as the truth.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> That's 'cause the Israeli Mosad keeps assassinating their nu-clear scientists.


dude I know you want to reference some conservative journalists etc which is expected, but my god the ones on sunTV are known liars. There has to be better. They make the few on CBC look like saints ready for the heavenly ascension.

Even the conservatives are distancing themselves from those ones.


----------



## kps

Did you just call me...dude? LOL

Are you saying that most journalists are liars regardless who they work for? That may not be too far off though. Journalistic standards have really been dragged through the sh** in recent years. Even more than they already have since news became "entertainment" and many news organizations have become polarized by being bought out by the big players.

It seems all news in mainstream outlets comes from one or two sources and that's it.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Did you just call me...dude? LOL
> 
> Are you saying that most journalists are liars regardless who they work for? That may not be too far off though. Journalistic standards have really been dragged through the sh** in recent years. Even more than they already have since news became "entertainment" and many news organizations have become polarized by being bought out by the big players.
> 
> It seems all news in mainstream outlets comes from one or two sources and that's it.


Well unless they did something else in the hospital, he last time I saw you you -were-... A dude. 

Oh you mean this sort of truth? Ezra Levant ordered to pay $25,000 for libel - TheTyee.ca - Mobile

It's all relative. All media has been caught at one time or another, and all media has a bias depending which guy/gal. But seriously. SunTV is in a class all on their own. And their ratings are beyond abysmal. Even all my conservative friends won't have anything to do with that channel.


----------



## kps

Problem is, Groove, that as of late what's presented in what is generally known as the "main stream media" is no more credible than what's presented in the Sun News, be it print or video. 

As far as Levant goes, it cost him big, so I'd imagine he's a lot more diligent than before in getting his facts straight and/or curbing any inclination to presenting blatant lies. Biases? Heck yeah, no doubt, but no different than most other journalists .


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Well unless they did something else in the hospital, he last time I saw you you -were-... A dude.
> 
> Oh you mean this sort of truth? Ezra Levant ordered to pay $25,000 for libel - TheTyee.ca - Mobile
> 
> It's all relative. All media has been caught at one time or another, and all media has a bias depending which guy/gal. But seriously. SunTV is in a class all on their own. And their ratings are beyond abysmal. Even all my conservative friends won't have anything to do with that channel.


More interesting is that even after being found libelous, the articles were still posted on his blog at the time the linked article was published.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Problem is, Groove, that as of late what's presented in what is generally known as the "main stream media" is no more credible than what's presented in the Sun News, be it print or video.
> 
> As far as Levant goes, it cost him big, so I'd imagine he's a lot more diligent than before in getting his facts straight and/or curbing any inclination to presenting blatant lies. Biases? Heck yeah, no doubt, but no different than most other journalists .


Apparently not so much. That's why I've seen the jokes fly around when sunTV launch with levant mouthing off that the suns lawyers were gearing up for some major overtime.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*More TARsands bafflegab*

Enbridge's pipeline of distortions

That's a whopper!

Brought to you by JNN - "purveyors of quality information since 2010"


----------



## groovetube

did we really expect anything less from our tarsand gov, er, conservative government?


----------



## groovetube

There's a teeear... in mah beeeer...

Braid: Tories to blame for Alberta?s friendless status


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> did we really expect anything less from our tarsand gov, er, conservative government?


Wouldn't expect anything less from the author of the article either...



> Harsha Walia is a Vancouver-based activist and writer trained in law.


Nuff said...


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Wouldn't expect anything less from the author of the article either...
> 
> 
> 
> Nuff said...


sure, the writer is suspect? But what part of what was said isn't true? Harper and co are in overdrive primarily focusing on ensuring Canada is an "energy superpower", other technologies, well, meh, not so much.


----------



## eMacMan

Don Braid a Calgary Herald staff writer was the author.

A thought on the one first nation that reversed it's Northern Gateway support.

$7 Million spread over 30 years can hardly be expected to excite support amongst the band members. As surprising as it may be to some Easterners more than a few of BCs Native people really do have basic math skills and the Enbridge offer would have done very little for them.

Northern Gateway needs to start from scratch both in terms of environmental study and right of way. Any one associated with the oil industry knows that Northern Pipelines do not happen over night and with the large number of First nations impacted this one will flow even slower than the molasses consistency crude they wish to ship.

As to Keystone; My original thought that some or even most refining be done on site now seems to make even more sense. The US will still want the finished product and if you are not trying to funnel raw product all the way to Texas refineries, pipelines need be constructed no further than the US border. Keep the jobs here in Alberta.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Don Braid a Calgary Herald staff writer was the author.
> 
> A thought on the one first nation that reversed it's Northern Gateway support.
> 
> $7 Million spread over 30 years can hardly be expected to excite support amongst the band members. As surprising as it may be to some Easterners more than a few of BCs Native people really do have basic math skills and the Enbridge offer would have done very little for them.
> 
> Northern Gateway needs to start from scratch both in terms of environmental study and right of way. Any one associated with the oil industry knows that Northern Pipelines do not happen over night and with the large number of First nations impacted this one will flow even slower than the molasses consistency crude they wish to ship.
> 
> As to Keystone; My original thought that some or even most refining be done on site now seems to make even more sense. The US will still want the finished product and if you are not trying to funnel raw product all the way to Texas refineries, pipelines need be constructed no further than the US border. Keep the jobs here in Alberta.


quite honestly, I never did understand why the idea of refining HERE never occurred to them.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> quite honestly, I never did understand why the idea of *refining HERE* never occurred to them.


They do but the refined product is sold here at home and other countries don't want to buy the refined product because it is more expensive than buying the raw product and refining it locally.

You can't sell people what they aren't willing to pay the price for when they have options that are cheaper.

A pipeline going one way or the other (maybe even both) will eventually happen... I can almost guarantee it, even if it is under a different government than the current one.

No government/country is going to leave money on the table, nor should they.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> The US will still want the finished product and if you are not trying to funnel raw product all the way to Texas refineries, pipelines need be constructed no further than the US border. Keep the jobs here in Alberta.


Because it doesn't make economic sense. Labour is cheaper there and they already have a large refining infrastructure in place. The oil is largely intended for refinement and export, not domestic use.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Because it doesn't make economic sense. Labour is cheaper there and they already have a large refining infrastructure in place. The oil is largely intended for refinement and export, not domestic use.


I beat you to the punch...  Just under the wire...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I beat you to the punch...  Just under the wire...


High five--by seconds! 

People who don't examine the economic realities of these industries often come back with a bunch of "common sense" rejoinders that--if put into practice--would bankrupt the business.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> They do but the refined product is sold here at home and other countries don't want to buy the refined product because it is more expensive than buying the raw product and refining it locally.
> 
> You can't sell people what they aren't willing to pay the price for when they have options that are cheaper.
> 
> A pipeline going one way or the other (maybe even both) will eventually happen... I can almost guarantee it, even if it is under a different government than the current one.
> 
> No government/country is going to leave money on the table, nor should they.


One can't pull a sarcasm here. A smiley would have ruined, without one, it probably is too confusing. Well so much for a funny.

It's also better to sell the raw and buy it back refined. <sarcasm smilie>


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> One can't pull a sarcasm here. A smiley would have ruined, without one, it probably is too confusing. Well so much for a funny.
> 
> *It's also better to sell the raw and buy it back refined.* <sarcasm smilie>


Got any numbers on that? Specifically related to oil, not other commodities.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Got any numbers on that?


No numbers--just common sense. 

The same common sense that would see Apple manufacture Canadian-bought computers in Canada--"cuz it just makes sense to keep the jawbs here."


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Got any numbers on that? Specifically related to oil, not other commodities.


I don't profess to know many of the details and numbers of this. But I think most people I know, know that we import an aweful lot of oil, when we produce more than we use. Funny that. I thought this was an interesting start: How International Oil Companies Have Thwarted Canadian Energy Independence



Macfury said:


> No numbers--just common sense.
> 
> The same common sense that would see Apple manufacture Canadian-bought computers in Canada--"cuz it just makes sense to keep the jawbs here."


That would make sense only if Canada made absolutely every component in the computer. Otherwise, your logic is even worse.


----------



## Macfury

It's cheaper to import oil into one coast and export it from the other.


----------



## groovetube

got any numbers?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> got any numbers?


A valid question... but you were asked first...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> A valid question... but you were asked first...


yes and if you read my response, I said I don't know. Did you read the article I linked to? Or even look at it?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> yes and if you read my response, I said I don't know. Did you read the article I linked to? Or even look at it?


Yes I did... it didn't provide much that I didn't and many other people already don't know...

Import/Exports are not a simple one for one equation... there is much more at stake than that when it comes to international trade...

We sometimes have a surplus of oil products and at other times have a glut in a free market economy.. .the author speaks as though there is a steady and predictable supply and demand, which there is not... 

The equation is far from being so simplistic especially when one considers the competition built into the market among competing suppliers/companies.

If all oil suppliers/countries were based on one national supplier his arguments may have some merit but since that isn't the situation they don't.


----------



## groovetube

except for the little tidbit about the oil interests being mainly foreign owned, so therefore why the hell would they care if keeping oil inside Canada and creating jobs etc was a good thing.

Which also makes a mockery of the conservative government getting p**y about foreign input on the pipeline.

So much for ethical oil.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> except for the little tidbit about the oil interests being mainly foreign owned, *so therefore why the hell would they care if keeping oil inside Canada and creating jobs etc was a good thing*.
> 
> Which also makes a mockery of the conservative government getting p**y about foreign input on the pipeline.
> 
> So much for ethical oil.


The twains do not meet in your argument IMO. Maybe if you explained it a little bit further I would understand where you are coming from.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER - sinking in polls*

Bob Rae More Popular Than Stephen Harper In New Polling

So low that citizens like the Honourable Robert Rae more than OGL?!:yikes:

Brought to you by JNN - "who would have thought ?"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper and the TARSANDS gang*

The Tyee – Stephen Harper and the Big Oil Party of Canada

Greasy slime!

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit - oozy tar leech"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper's school colleague chooses the environment over the TARSANDS*

The Tyee – Harper's Former Schoolmate Now on His Enemies List

Sad to see such a deterioration in Harper's ethics from when he was in scouts. Baden Powell would not be amused with the proposed destruction of pristine forest, water ways and the species we share this earth with.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit boys we got tar ta sell to the commies!"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Former BC Premier Harcourt has harsh words for Albertans*

This is shocking -

“Albertans are essentially vampires living off dead dinosaurs. They just put their fangs into the ground and out comes the black gold [oil].”

I'm sure this was said in jest. In fact I know many Albertans who are firmly against the tarsands and the oil and gas industry as a whole. To "tar" Albertans with the same brush is simply rude and uncouth.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Bob Rae More Popular Than Stephen Harper In New Polling
> 
> So low that citizens like the Honourable Robert Rae more than OGL?!:yikes:
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "who would have thought ?"


Bob Rae...:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> The Tyee – Harper's Former Schoolmate Now on His Enemies List
> 
> Sad to see such a deterioration in Harper's ethics from when he was in scouts. Baden Powell would not be amused with the proposed destruction of pristine forest, water ways and the species we share this earth with.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit boys we got tar ta sell to the commies!"


Tyee? Who the heck is Tyee? Not even close to ALTNN.

More crap from the foreign lobby...as per relevant quotes:



> "I didn't know him, but it does sound like we overlapped," said Bill McKibben in an email to The Tyee.





> "I think he's talking about people like me,"


LOL, he thinks Harper is talking about _HIM_...well, I think he flatters himself too much.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Tyee? Who the heck is Tyee?


It's a progressive rag that nobody reads. Sort of a funnier version of _NOW Magazine_--but with fewer ads.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> It's a progressive rag that nobody reads. Sort of a funnier version of _NOW Magazine_--but with fewer ads.


Well, that would explain it....


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Sorry, my mind's made up on this.





kps said:


> Bob Rae...:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


I've sensed a growing uneasiness in the conservatives about Rae taking the leadership.

"oh the ads will write themselves!"

I think Rae is thinking the very same thing...


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Bob Rae...:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:



Read the article carefully:

They are comparing Bob Rae's approval as interim leader to Stephen Harper's approval as PM. What the hell is that all about? Desperate times for the Liberals call for desperate PR measures, I guess.


----------



## groovetube

:baby::baby::baby:

Sorry pal but that doesn't make any sense. You're merely pulling sour grapes over what has been done for other leaders(like Harper!) for a long time.

It's easy to be in opposition, but a real b* to be in power eh?

Heh.


----------



## BigDL

It must be right horrible when you're a fanboi and the object of your adulation is being diminished. 

Especially, with Parliament not sitting, OGL and his merry minions are afflicting themselves with hoof in mouth disease. :clap:

:lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Nothing like having one's party hopelessly out of power and near-irrelevant to bring out these kinds of kooky comments. You lost!


----------



## groovetube

Awwwwwwww.


----------



## bryanc

Earlier in this thread with respect to having faith in capitalism I said



bryanc said:


> ...I have absolutely no faith that profit-motivated corporations will do anything that limits their ability to continue to profit or increase their profits regardless of the damage it does to communities or the environment...


I'm bringing it up again because I just came across this lovely quote from the great economist John Maynard Keynes:



Keynes said:


> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wicked men will do the most wicked things for the greatest good of everyone.


Talk about your leaps of faith! The point here is not that we shouldn't take advantage of capitalism to optimize many (even most) aspects of our economy, but that capitalism is not governed by morality, so we shouldn't mindlessly trust it to do what's good for society. We must monitor and regulate the market so it serves us, and not the other way around.

So when arguing about wether it is most economically profitable to pipe crude oil to Texas or refine it locally and export the products, we're missing the point. Wether it makes corporations more or less money should be a secondary concern; what's best for society and the environment should be our primary concern. Once those issues have been satisfactorily addressed, we can let the capitalists find the most efficient and profitable way of exploiting the resources within those constraints.

If they claim that they can't make a profit within those constraints, it's obvious that we'd be better off without their business.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> So when arguing about wether it is most economically profitable to pipe crude oil to Texas or refine it locally and export the products, we're missing the point. Wether it makes corporations more or less money should be a secondary concern; what's best for society and the environment should be our primary concern. Once those issues have been satisfactorily addressed, we can let the capitalists find the most efficient and profitable way of exploiting the resources within those constraints.
> 
> If they claim that they can't make a profit within those constraints, it's obvious that we'd be better off without their business.


If you decide to "Serve the employment needs of Canadians" by refining oil here you make the oil less salable, and cost other Canadians their jobs. 

Your notion that capitalism will continue to provide economic growth when constrained inside the tiny box of "serves us" is laughable. It won't function any more. You'll have a rapidly collapsing economy with major redistribution of scarcer and scarcer wealth.

However, we have seen the great work of John Maynard Keynes in action just south of us. How's that working out for you? Keyne's notion that businesspeople are "wicked" is a sad anachronism. No more wicked or good than anyone else is more like it. Putting "wicked" men in charge of taxation and redistribution is somehow better? Please....


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Earlier in this thread with respect to having faith in capitalism I said
> 
> I'm bringing it up again because I just came across this lovely quote from the great economist John Maynard Keynes:
> 
> Talk about your leaps of faith! The point here is not that we shouldn't take advantage of capitalism to optimize many (even most) aspects of our economy, but that capitalism is not governed by morality, so we shouldn't mindlessly trust it to do what's good for society. We must monitor and regulate the market so it serves us, and not the other way around.
> *
> So when arguing about wether it is most economically profitable to pipe crude oil to Texas or refine it locally and export the products, we're missing the point. Wether it makes corporations more or less money should be a secondary concern; what's best for society and the environment should be our primary concern. Once those issues have been satisfactorily addressed, we can let the capitalists find the most efficient and profitable way of exploiting the resources within those constraints.*
> 
> If they claim that they can't make a profit within those constraints, it's obvious that we'd be better off without their business.


It is only missing the point given your set of priorities and criteria, others will and do disagree completely. 

The world runs on capital, the more capital in a given country generally speaking the better the quality of life in a multitude of ways. So profit is a component of a societies well being and cannot be separated out as if somehow it operates at odds with what is good for society. Of course at times it can but it is far from being a fundamental certainty.

As for the environment, it is of course a concern and the impact should always be mitigated but it is only one part of the equation and is always studied and has to go through a review process before such projects go ahead.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> Earlier in this thread with respect to having faith in capitalism I said
> 
> 
> 
> I'm bringing it up again because I just came across this lovely quote from the great economist John Maynard Keynes:
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about your leaps of faith! The point here is not that we shouldn't take advantage of capitalism to optimize many (even most) aspects of our economy, but that capitalism is not governed by morality, so we shouldn't mindlessly trust it to do what's good for society. We must monitor and regulate the market so it serves us, and not the other way around.
> 
> So when arguing about wether it is most economically profitable to pipe crude oil to Texas or refine it locally and export the products, we're missing the point. Wether it makes corporations more or less money should be a secondary concern; what's best for society and the environment should be our primary concern. Once those issues have been satisfactorily addressed, we can let the capitalists find the most efficient and profitable way of exploiting the resources within those constraints.
> 
> If they claim that they can't make a profit within those constraints, it's obvious that we'd be better off without their business.


Why that's crazy talk! Expecting free wheeling rugged individualist to consider the other guy let alone an object like this environment thing you speak of well it's unconscionable.

Citizens controlling resources and means of production for human needs rather than private profit. 

Using well thought out public policy and regulation rather than leaving it to the market using un-seen hands of fear and greed, well that sounds like a lot of hokum to me.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It is only missing the point given your set of priorities and criteria, others will and do disagree completely.
> 
> The world runs on capital, the more capital in a given country generally speaking the better the quality of life in a multitude of ways. So profit is a component of a societies well being and cannot be separated out as if somehow it operates at odds with what is good for society. Of course at times it can but it is far from being a fundamental certainty.
> 
> As for the environment, it is of course a concern and the impact should always be mitigated but it is only one part of the equation and is always studied and has to go through a review process before such projects go ahead.


That reads perhaps like a corporate/governmental introduction to the beauty of corporations.

I'm sorry, but that is a huge load of defending corporate interests, and completely missing the obvious point, (not to mention the history of corporate abuses) of what bryanc is saying.

I have multiple times, pointed out that the priorities has been backwards, and only fools would believe that the corporations would ever act in human being's interests. To believe this is to not understand what a corporation is or how it operates whatsoever. 

As I said, history is incredibly slammed full of examples of corporations completely destroying people, the environment, or anything else in it's path, and completely controls our government. Your head is firmly hundreds of feet deep in the sand if you don't think this is true. If it weren't for the regulations we do have, the picture could be far, far worse, if that's possible.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Nothing like having one's party hopelessly out of power and near-irrelevant to bring out these kinds of kooky comments. You lost!


What are you on, about now?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> What are you on, about now?


seems to be the Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyaaaaaaah nyah thing.

not much, by hey why deny what they have eh?


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> What are you on, about now?


We were taking about the Rae spin-doctoring and not about Harper...hence no "adulation" and fanboism...get it?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> As I said, history is incredibly slammed full of examples of corporations completely destroying people, the environment, or anything else in it's path, and *completely controls our government.* Your head is firmly hundreds of feet deep in the sand if you don't think this is true. *If it weren't for the regulations we do have*, the picture could be far, far worse, if that's possible.


Nice contradiction Groove...how can you have the regulations you speak of if the wicked corporations "completely" control the government?


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Nice contradiction Groove...how can you have the regulations you speak of if the wicked corporations "completely" control the government?


Who knows what the wind thinks, kps?


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Nice contradiction Groove...how can you have the regulations you speak of if the wicked corporations "completely" control the government?


It wasn't a contraction. What made you think it was?

are you referring to the regulations the corporations themselves help draft?

I don't know that there are many examples of regulations without gapping holes to get around now, do you?


----------



## kps

Since we're dropping quotes...here's one in response to bryanc:



> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
> - C. S. Lewis


Here's one for BigDL:



> Its funny because those who are so obsessed with tearing down society will have the most to lose in their entitlements.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> It wasn't a contraction. What made you think it was?
> 
> are you referring to the regulations the corporations themselves help draft?
> 
> I don't know that there are many examples of regulations without gapping holes to get around now, do you?


Oh, so now the regulations are drafted by the wicked corporations...Ok.

How about the really uber-wicked Crown Corporations...like the monopolistic CBC, LCBO, Canada Post, etc. LOL


----------



## jimbotelecom

*REAL CANADIAN opposition to TARSANDSpipe*

Enbridge pipeline deal with B.C. First Nation collapses - British Columbia - CBC News

Brought to you by JNN - "thank you first nations!"


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Oh, so now the regulations are drafted by the wicked corporations...Ok.
> 
> How about the really uber-wicked Crown Corporations...like the monopolistic CBC, LCBO, Canada Post, etc. LOL


Well given government is made up of large corporate interests pretty much, who do you really think is involved with the shaping of these regulations? Oh I'm sure I'll get a "pamphlet" on how lobbyists work and how they're controlled blah blah, that's coming, but don't be fooled here.

And crown corporations will do whatever it needs to survive as well.


----------



## groovetube

> Its funny because those who are so obsessed with tearing down society will have the most to lose in their entitlements.


nonsense.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Well given government is made up of large corporate interests pretty much, who do you really think is involved with the shaping of these regulations? Oh I'm sure I'll get a "pamphlet" on how lobbyists work and how they're controlled blah blah, that's coming, but don't be fooled here.
> 
> And crown corporations will do whatever it needs to survive as well.


Boy, do we live in a nasty and corrupt world...I'm bugging out to live in a cave.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> nonsense.


No it isn't.


----------



## groovetube

next we'll start hearing how the socialists will take away your house.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> next we'll start hearing how the socialists will take away your house.


...are socialists obsessed with tearing down society? I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> next we'll start hearing how the socialists will take away your house.


No. They will make it so onerous to live there, that you will have to sell it.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> ...are socialists obsessed with tearing down society? I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up.


that's what they say. 

So who are the ones you think are obsessed with tearing down society? The ones with the most to lose? Who is this mythical group?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No. They will make it so onerous to live there, that you will have to sell it.


I think that already occurred south of the border, and I don't think the socialists are the ones forcing foreclosure or selling.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think that already occurred south of the border, and I don't think the socialists are the ones forcing foreclosure or selling.


Yes, they are--through ridiculous social housing policies promoted by the federal government and promulgated by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yes, they are--through ridiculous social housing policies promoted by the federal government and promulgated by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.


I'm afraid socialism had nothing to do with any of that. But it makes for a good blame target though eh.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That reads perhaps like a corporate/governmental introduction to the beauty of corporations.
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is a huge load of defending corporate interests, and completely missing the obvious point, (not to mention the history of corporate abuses) of what bryanc is saying.
> 
> I have multiple times, pointed out that the priorities has been backwards, and only fools would believe that the corporations would ever act in human being's interests. To believe this is to not understand what a corporation is or how it operates whatsoever.
> 
> As I said, history is incredibly slammed full of examples of corporations completely destroying people, the environment, or anything else in it's path, and completely controls our government. Your head is firmly hundreds of feet deep in the sand if you don't think this is true. If it weren't for the regulations we do have, the picture could be far, far worse, if that's possible.


You completely missed the point of the post, it was not that corporations act in the interest of society but that profits put into the economy provide for the benefit of society e.g. jobs, taxes collected on those profits and from the employees of those corporations etc.

History is not slammed full of examples of corporations completely destroying people, the environment, or anything else in it's path, and completely controls our government.

I won't comment on where your head is for thinking so...  Certain companies have been guilty of such things but far from most or even a significant percentage when one considers the thousands upon thousands of corporation that are out there and have been through history.

It is interesting that you feel this way when you live in one of the richest nations in the world that was built on capitalism and if it weren't for capitalism you and millions and millions of Canadians would not enjoy the standard of living that you/they do today.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> that's what they say.
> 
> So who are the ones you think are obsessed with tearing down society? The ones with the most to lose? Who is this mythical group?


I believe the quote referenced the likes of the G8/G20 anarchists and possibly the "Occupy" tent dwelling bunch. In essence it means that those that would tear down the current social structure would have the most to lose in entitlements, ie welfare, grants, other tax money, etc.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You completely missed the point of the post, it was not that corporations act in the interest of society but that profits put into the economy provide for the benefit of society e.g. jobs, taxes collected on those profits and from the employees of those corporations etc.
> 
> History is not slammed full of examples of corporations completely destroying people, the environment, or anything else in it's path, and completely controls our government.
> 
> I won't comment on where your head is for thinking so...  Certain companies have been guilty of such things but far from most or even a significant percentage when one considers the thousands upon thousands of corporation that are out there and have been through history.
> 
> It is interesting that you feel this way when you live in one of the richest nations in the world that was built on capitalism and if it weren't for capitalism you and millions and millions of Canadians would not enjoy the standard of living that you/they do today.


You're very gullible Screature I'm afraid. Anyone, who doesn't acknowledge the damage corporations have done to people (and the environment) isn't worth debating. It's a clear fact, and denying it is tantamount to -lying". No one can be so sheltered, as to have not seen how corporate greed has resulted in the deaths of huge numbers of people, _knowlingly_.

Get bloody real.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I believe the quote referenced the likes of the G8/G20 anarchists and possibly the "Occupy" tent dwelling bunch. In essence it means that those that would tear down the current social structure would have the most to lose in entitlements, ie welfare, grants, other tax money, etc.


no one wants to "tear down the social structure". This is the tidbit scrounged from somewhere and tossed at the cons feet so they can have a feeding frenzy.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> You're very gullible Screature I'm afraid. Anyone, who doesn't acknowledge the damage corporations have done to people (and the environment) isn't worth debating. It's a clear fact, and denying it is tantamount to -lying". No one can be so sheltered, as to have not seen how corporate greed has resulted in the deaths of huge numbers of people, _knowlingly_.
> 
> Get bloody real.


The "little man" speaks!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The "little man" speaks!


You like to toss these things out without addressing the topic don't you.

Would you like to publicly say too, that corporations don't cause the deaths of large number of people due to their greed as well?

It'd clear things up on how you think if you did!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *You're very gullible Screature* I'm afraid. Anyone, who doesn't acknowledge the damage corporations have done to people (and the environment) isn't worth debating. It's a clear fact, and denying it is tantamount to -lying". No one can be so sheltered, as to have not seen how corporate greed has resulted in the deaths of huge numbers of people, _knowlingly_.
> 
> Get bloody real.


Back to your old ways of posting I see... no not gullible just no axe to grind and capable of seeing that nothing is all black or white or all good or evil, people are far too complicated for that and thus so are corporations and the history capitalism.

As for denying, no one denied anything I admitted that some corporations have been guilty of the things you claim, just not the majority. So please spare me the your sanctimony and false testament of lying.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Back to your old ways of posting I see... no not gullible just no axe to grind and capable of seeing that nothing is all black or white or all good or evil, people are far too complicated for that and thus so are corporations and the history capitalism.
> 
> As for denying, no one denied anything I admitted that some corporation have been guilty of the things you claim, just not the majority. So please spare me the your sanctimony and false testament of lying.


I addressed this:



> *History is not slammed full of examples of corporations completely destroying people, the environment, or anything else in it's path, and completely controls our government.*


Which is a total fabrication.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I addressed this:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is a total fabrication.


*Slammed full*, no it's not relative to the total number of corporations it is relatively few on a percentage basis.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> *Slammed full*, no it's not relative to the total number of corporations it is relatively few on a percentage basis.


I'm not sure how anyone could twist the phrase "history is slammed full of examples", to being a relative number to the overall number of corporations.


----------



## eMacMan

So was just reading how King Harpo is scared silly of Iran.

My Lard. First create a boogeyman to justify diverting boatloads of taxpayers hard earned dollars to the banksters and military suppliers, then cower in fear before your own boogeyman.

I will repeat. A government that leads by trying to cower its own people, is a poor pathetic hollow shell of a government.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> So was just reading how King Harpo is scared silly of Iran.
> 
> My Lard. First create a boogeyman to justify diverting boatloads of taxpayers hard earned dollars to the banksters and military suppliers, then cower in fear before your own boogeyman.
> 
> I will repeat. A government that leads by trying to cower its own people, is a poor pathetic hollow shell of a government.


What's interesting is that even Israel is less afraid and seemingly more informed about Iran's lack of weapons. But this crisis is GREAT for convincing people enough for Harper&co to flog more "ethical oil".


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm not sure how anyone could twist the phrase "history is slammed full of examples", to being a relative number to the overall number of corporations.


Because like all things it should be considered in a relative context.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Because like all things it should be considered in a relative context.


And how exactly does that gloss over the large number of corporations responsible for a lot of deaths due to greed?

You can compare it it, twist it, make it relative to whatever you want, it doesn't change my point, one bit.

Nice try though.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> The world runs on capital


I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to be dismissive of your position here, but this is completely wrong.

The world absolutely does *not* run on capital. The economy may run on capital, but the first and most crucial step in fixing what's wrong with the global economy is to recognize that it [the economy] is an emergent property of complex human interactions, and it [the economy] doesn't really exist in any objective sense. The world, the ecosystem, people and the natural resources *do* exist, and the impact of our decisions on these real things should take precedence over any predicted impact on the economy. If economic activity is bad for people and the environment, change the economy, not the people and the environment.

If anything, the world runs on energy, essentially all of which is derived from the sun. When we use fossil fuels we are using energy that was captured by photosynthesis over millions of years. The rate at which the global ecosystem can capture and sequester solar energy is not fixed, but it is definitely finite (and it is limited primarily by the kinetics of an enzyme called RuBisco). While it's difficult to determine precisely the rate at which contemporary photosynthesis is capturing energy, it is quite clear that it is at a rate that is *orders of magnitude* less than the rate at which our civilization is consuming energy.

Simply put, we are running a *massive* energy deficit.

Unlike money, which is a conceptual tool that has no objective existence, energy is real, and there is no bank from which we can borrow more, nor can governments arbitrarily print more energy.

We have enjoyed the benefit of completely fortuitous geological circumstances that happened to provide us with a readily accessible storehouse of reduced carbon compounds we could convert into energy, upon which we've built our civilization. But we now understand the thermodynamics of our situation well enough to recognize that this is like a 'one time start-up' grant, and we now have to figure out how to run our civilization without this energy source. The more quickly we transition to sustainable energy sources the better.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> What's interesting is that even Israel is less afraid and seemingly more informed about Iran's lack of weapons. But this crisis is GREAT for convincing people enough for Harper&co to flog more "ethical oil".


It always is....about the oil.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> It always is....about the oil.


no, but in this case it absolutely is.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to be dismissive of your position here, but this is completely wrong.
> 
> The world absolutely does *not* run on capital. The economy may run on capital, but the first and most crucial step in fixing what's wrong with the global economy is to recognize that it [the economy] is an emergent property of complex human interactions, and it [the economy] doesn't really exist in any objective sense. The world, the ecosystem, people and the natural resources *do* exist, and the impact of our decisions on these real things should take precedence over any predicted impact on the economy. If economic activity is bad for people and the environment, change the economy, not the people and the environment.
> 
> If anything, the world runs on energy, essentially all of which is derived from the sun. When we use fossil fuels we are using energy that was captured by photosynthesis over millions of years. The rate at which the global ecosystem can capture and sequester solar energy is not fixed, but it is definitely finite (and it is limited primarily by the kinetics of an enzyme called RuBisco). While it's difficult to determine precisely the rate at which contemporary photosynthesis is capturing energy, it is quite clear that it is at a rate that is *orders of magnitude* less than the rate at which our civilization is consuming energy.
> 
> Simply put, we are running a *massive* energy deficit.
> 
> Unlike money, which is a conceptual tool that has no objective existence, energy is real, and there is no bank from which we can borrow more, nor can governments arbitrarily print more energy.
> 
> We have enjoyed the benefit of completely fortuitous geological circumstances that happened to provide us with a readily accessible storehouse of reduced carbon compounds we could convert into energy, upon which we've built our civilization. But we now understand the thermodynamics of our situation well enough to recognize that this is like a 'one time start-up' grant, and we now have to figure out how to run our civilization without this energy source. The more quickly we transition to sustainable energy sources the better.


bryanc, I don't know where to begin with this analysis of the way the world runs. 

Your own values are not real in any objective sense either. Neither is the importance of preserving humanity, the importance of the eco-system, dancing around the maypole to generate sustainable energy or any of what you're going on about.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> And how exactly does that gloss over the large number of corporations responsible for a lot of deaths due to greed?
> 
> You can compare it it, twist it, make it relative to whatever you want, it doesn't change my point, one bit.
> 
> Nice try though.


It's a matter of perspective. For you corporations (seemingly the majority) are effectively all bad or at least mostly so. 

I don't see it that way, I think the good outweighs the bad, just like with people so I am not going to go around standing on a pulpit saying that corporations are bad and responsible for the ills of the world. Sure some corporations are responsible for some of the ills of the world but many, many more are also responsible for many great things and in their pursuit of wealth have provided for much of the standard of living that we enjoy today.

We just see things differently, you want to focus on the empty part of the glass and I would rather focus on the full part.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It's a matter of perspective. For you corporations (seemingly the majority) are effectively all bad or at least mostly so.
> 
> I don't see it that way, I think the good outweighs the bad, just like with people so I am not going to go around standing on a pulpit saying that corporations are bad and responsible for the ills of the world. Sure some corporations are responsible for some of the ills of the world but many, many more are also responsible for many great things and in their pursuit of wealth have provided for much of the standard of living that we enjoy today.
> 
> We just see things differently, you want to focus on the empty part of the glass and I would rather focus on the full part.


I did NOT say, the "majority".

If you would like to gloss over all the tobacco, chemical, weapons etc etc corporations, sure. Be my guest. But that doesn't do much for the credibility of your position I'm afraid.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to be dismissive of your position here, but this is completely wrong.
> 
> The world absolutely does *not* run on capital. The economy may run on capital, but the first and most crucial step in fixing what's wrong with the global economy is to recognize that it [the economy] is an emergent property of complex human interactions, and it [the economy] doesn't really exist in any objective sense. The world, the ecosystem, people and the natural resources *do* exist, and the impact of our decisions on these real things should take precedence over any predicted impact on the economy. If economic activity is bad for people and the environment, change the economy, not the people and the environment.
> 
> If anything, the world runs on energy, essentially all of which is derived from the sun. When we use fossil fuels we are using energy that was captured by photosynthesis over millions of years. The rate at which the global ecosystem can capture and sequester solar energy is not fixed, but it is definitely finite (and it is limited primarily by the kinetics of an enzyme called RuBisco). While it's difficult to determine precisely the rate at which contemporary photosynthesis is capturing energy, it is quite clear that it is at a rate that is *orders of magnitude* less than the rate at which our civilization is consuming energy.
> 
> Simply put, we are running a *massive* energy deficit.
> 
> Unlike money, which is a conceptual tool that has no objective existence, energy is real, and there is no bank from which we can borrow more, nor can governments arbitrarily print more energy.
> 
> We have enjoyed the benefit of completely fortuitous geological circumstances that happened to provide us with a readily accessible storehouse of reduced carbon compounds we could convert into energy, upon which we've built our civilization. But we now understand the thermodynamics of our situation well enough to recognize that this is like a 'one time start-up' grant, and we now have to figure out how to run our civilization without this energy source. The more quickly we transition to sustainable energy sources the better.


Sigh... when you come up with a way you can obtain energy in a modern world without capital you let me know and I will be willing to invest in it.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I did NOT say, the "majority".
> 
> If you would like to gloss over all the tobacco, chemical, weapons etc etc corporations, sure. Be my guest. But that doesn't do much for the credibility of your position I'm afraid.


My argument is every bit as credible as your's you just seem unwilling to accept the fact it is a matter of shades of grey. So be it, once again we will have to agree to disagree, no surprise there. At this point we are flogging a dead horse, probably time to move on to a different subject...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> My argument is every bit as credible as your's you just seem unwilling to accept the fact it is a matter of shades of grey. So be it, once again we will have to agree to disagree, no surprise there. At this point we are flogging a dead horse, probably time to move on to a different subject...


Excuse me, but I didn't say there weren't shades of grey, nor that there aren't corporations who do good things. My company, is in fact incorporated. And I know many incorporated companies I admire. Incorporation does not automatically mean you will knowingly kill people or harm the environment.

Don't put words into my mouth in order to confuse the point.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sigh... when you come up with a way you can obtain energy in a modern world without capital you let me know and I will be willing to invest in it.


When you come up with a way that we can get energy with -just- capital, without people, let me know as well.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Excuse me, but I didn't say there weren't shades of grey, nor that there aren't corporations who do good things. My company, is in fact incorporated. And I know many incorporated companies I admire. Incorporation does not automatically mean you will knowingly kill people or harm the environment.
> 
> *Don't put words into my mouth in order to confuse the point.*


LOL... well you omit words out of my mouth to confuse the point so I guess that makes us even. Time to move on...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> When you come up with a way that we can get energy with -just- capital, without people, let me know as well.


Never said anything like that...


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> no, but in this case it absolutely is.


Ummmm...nah...it is always about the oil.

Ortega-Chavez-Ahmadinejad:
*


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Never said anything like that...


Well then it appears you've answered your own question then.

People, are able to accomplish things, -without- "capital". They have for thousands of years.

But I'm not aware of "capital" being to do a thing without people. Amazing this even needs to be pointed out in my view.

So what's more important. The corporations servicing themselves first, with the side benefit of trickling down money and jobs for the population, or, the other way around?

I'm for people first personally.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> LOL... well you omit words out of my mouth to confuse the point so I guess that makes us even. Time to move on...


wait a second, not so fast. What did I omit?

I said that history is slammed full of examples. You twisted that to a mathematical comparison of how many against the entire number. Which has little to do with whther there are a large number of examples. 

Then, you said I said there was no grey area.

Which I never said at all. So what, did -I- omit?


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Sigh... when you come up with a way you can obtain energy in a modern world without capital you let me know and I will be willing to invest in it.


All living (and many non-living) systems obtain energy without capital. Your average blue whale obtains and consumes vast amounts of energy, and does so without any money at all.

But I recognize that what you're really asking is how can *we* capture, distribute and utilize energy for things like computers, cars, and industry, and that will obviously require technological infrastructure that, because of the way we have organized our society, can only be achieved through economic means. What I hope you recognize is that this limitation (the need for capital) is ultimately a function of human behaviour, and that it therefore is not an immutable fact of nature.

In order to succeed in the necessary transformation our civilization must undergo (because of real, immutable laws of nature), we may have to change things like the way our economy works. Changing the economy is challenging, but not impossible, and it will be easier as more people recognize if for the arbitrary social construct that it is.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> In order to succeed in the necessary transformation our civilization must undergo (because of real, immutable laws of nature), we may have to change things like the way our economy works. Changing the economy is challenging, but not impossible, and it will be easier as more people recognize if for the arbitrary social construct that it is.


The transformation is not necessary. It only appears to be so because of the limitations of your own mental constructs. The "real, immutable laws of nature" will allow us to consume ALL of our fossil fuels while we work out a cheaper alternative.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Never said anything like that...


you're a little quick on the draw here. The point of my statement was to address your contention that the importance of corporations generating capital first in order to benefit people rather, than the other way round, is backwards.

People don't -need- corporations, it's the other way round. The sooner we come to this realization, the better. Despite many's assertion that opposition like OWS etc. is all about tearing it all down, it isn't. It's about changing it.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The transformation is not necessary. It only appears to be so because of the limitations of your own mental constructs. The "real, immutable laws of nature" will allow us to consume ALL of our fossil fuels while we work out a cheaper alternative.


And how is that going?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> And how is that going?


Really well actually.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Really well actually.


really? Do tell.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The transformation is not necessary. It only appears to be so because of the limitations of your own mental constructs.


... right... "there _is_ no spoon" ... if we can just harness the power of the Force or whatever, everything'l be fine.



> The "real, immutable laws of nature" will allow us to consume ALL of our fossil fuels while we work out a cheaper alternative.


Even if there were any rational basis for this position, it is still inevitable that we must work out alternatives.

As the basis for further discussion, will you at least agree that establishing viable sustainable energy alternatives is desirable?


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> ... right... "there _is_ no spoon" ... if we can just harness the power of the Force or whatever, everything'l be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if there were any rational basis for this position, it is still inevitable that we must work out alternatives.
> 
> As the basis for further discussion, will you at least agree that establishing viable sustainable energy alternatives is desirable?


according to 'fury, that's coming along really well(!) already.

Apparently.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Oh, so now the regulations are drafted by the wicked corporations...Ok.


CRTC is which broadcast *Corporations's BITCH* again? The rulings served up by this regulator have nothing to do with the general public's interest in the public airwaves, now do they? 



kps said:


> How about the really uber-wicked Crown Corporations...like the monopolistic CBC, LCBO, Canada Post, etc. LOL


Seem to have inadvertently left off this Crown Corporation; *The Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board*, off the list. Think? Think? Think? Why? Why? Why could that be?



CBCNews said:


> A federal agency created by the Harper government with great political fanfare in 2008 is costing millions of dollars to achieve pretty much nothing.
> 
> The Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board has just about everything a budding government agency could want.
> 
> So far, it has spent over $3.3 million for new offices, computers and furniture, well-paid executives and staff, travel budgets, expense accounts, board meetings, and lots of pricey consultants.





CBCNews said:


> Alyson Queen, a spokeswoman for Human Resources Minister Diane Finley, says the government has no intention of scrapping "an important stewardship group that oversees the integrity and transparency of EI financing."


Do Nothing but wastes 3.3 Million Dollars

A do nothing, well except for moving to more prestigious diggs, whilst doing nada.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> As the basis for further discussion, will you at least agree that establishing viable sustainable energy alternatives is desirable?


Not now.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> you're a little quick on the draw here. The point of my statement was to address your contention that the importance of corporations generating capital first in order to benefit people rather, than the other way round, is backwards.
> 
> People don't -need- corporations, it's the other way round. The sooner we come to this realization, the better. Despite many's assertion that opposition like OWS etc. is all about tearing it all down, it isn't. It's about changing it.


Like I have said, time to move on, I don't want to engage further with you on this subject... we simply don't agree and most likely never will. I am cool with that...


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> All living (and many non-living) systems obtain energy without capital. Your average blue whale obtains and consumes vast amounts of energy, and does so without any money at all.
> 
> But I recognize that what you're really asking is how can *we* capture, distribute and utilize energy for things like computers, cars, and industry, and that will obviously require technological infrastructure that, because of the way we have organized our society, can only be achieved through economic means. *What I hope you recognize is that this limitation (the need for capital) is ultimately a function of human behaviour, and that it therefore is not an immutable fact of nature.*
> 
> In order to succeed in the necessary transformation our civilization must undergo (because of real, immutable laws of nature), we may have to change things like the way our economy works. Changing the economy is challenging, but not impossible, and it will be easier as more people recognize if for the *arbitrary social construct that it is.*


Yes I do.

It isn't arbitrary at all as it has evolved over thousands of years of human existence... trade and commerce came into existence because it is a far more humane way of getting what we want and need than invading, raping and pillaging.


----------



## groovetube

Isn't the whole raping and pillaging thing more about gaining power, rather than what we need?

Not really much different than now if anyone's honest. Just ask haliburton for starters, or many of the massive weapons industry.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Isn't the whole raping and pillaging thing more about gaining power, rather than what we need?
> 
> Not really much different than now if anyone's honest. Just ask haliburton for starters, or many of the massive weapons industry.


Tech is a far bigger sector...

And yes it is much, much different now if anyone is being honest and not hyperbolic.


----------



## groovetube

right. Instead of clubs and Swords we have smart bombs now. "police actions".

"operation Iraqi Freedom".


----------



## groovetube

left turn. Er, maybe, straight ahead.





+
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ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> right. Instead of clubs and Swords we have smart bombs now. "police actions".
> 
> "operation Iraqi Freedom".


May I suggest you look at the far bigger picture...

How many independent countries do we have now? How many Empires?

Albeit imperfect we are much, much better off now... if nothing else the explosion of the population of the human race indicates as much... and why is it that the vast majority of countries wish to participate in the global economy which is fundamentally corporate driven, small or large?

Funny that, in your posts you refer to "corporations" as a homogeneous whole condemning them for killing people and raping the environment yet you run a corporation... ever thought of how those twains don't meet? 

Taking advantage of the construct all the while condemning it?

There is a word for that...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> \Funny that, in your posts you refer to "corporations" as a homogeneous whole condemning them for killing people and raping the environment yet you run a corporation... ever thought of how those twains don't meet? \


The argument is a mess. It jumps from corporations to history to Haliburton, and pillaging, then back again. I don't think you could even agree to disagree with it, its substance is so diffuse.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The argument is a mess. It jumps from corporations to history to Haliburton, and pillaging, then back again. I don't think you could even agree to disagree with it, its substance is so diffuse.


In fact it is all too easy to agree to disagree, at least for me... and it appears I am am poet and I didn't even know it.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> May I suggest you look at the far bigger picture...
> 
> How many independent countries do we have now? How many Empires?
> 
> Albeit imperfect we are much, much better off now... if nothing else the explosion of the population of the human race indicates as much... and why is it that the vast majority of countries wish to participate in the global economy which is fundamentally corporate driven, small or large?
> 
> Funny that, in your posts you refer to "corporations" as a homogeneous whole condemning them for killing people and raping the environment yet you run a corporation... ever thought of how those twains don't meet?
> 
> Taking advantage of the construct all the while condemning it?
> 
> There is a word for that...


You and macfury, seem very confused by this. Perhaps you're both just a little threatened by all this, because I think what I've suggested, certainly bryanc is far better at articulating things than I can hope to be, is really quite simple. 

Just because they 'can', doesn't mean they all do. But that's rather obvious, does even the most obvious need to be articulated too? Isn't this a rather simple concept? But as I have said several times, and you've clearly been very insulted by the idea, one doesn't need to look very far for a very large number of examples of corporations, who have knowingly put people's lives at risk, and has done things that has resulted in the deaths of a great number of people. And they still are! You both want to chortle about arguments not being properly made, when, neither of you seem to have the capacity to stop and consider than even just the tobacco industry alone, can serve as an excellent example of what I'm talking about. _And that, is just the tip of the iceberg._ No, both of you can only dart around in circles, because I suspect you both know full well that what I am saying is true. Both of you can run around in circles, and pretend all this isn''t true. But it isn't me playing the fool.



Macfury said:


> The argument is a mess. It jumps from corporations to history to Haliburton, and pillaging, then back again. I don't think you could even agree to disagree with it, its substance is so diffuse.


See above. I don't think this is something you -can- address. But you are welcome at any time to refute what I have said as not true.

I suggest starting with the tobacco industry...

Here's a safe prediction. You don't.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> In fact it is all too easy to agree to disagree, at least for me... and it appears I am am poet and I didn't even know it.


Well, sure, but what exactly are you agreeing to disagree with? At best you could sort of wave a bit of a blessing over the whole mess!


----------



## groovetube

thats what I thought. And so begins the predictable dancing once macfury doesn't like something. All you have to do is declare someone's post not worthy, and presto! You don't need to address it. Convenient! Cowardly I say.

This has occurred many times macfury. The concept is very simple. Either you can address it, or dance around it saying you don't understand something very simple.

This I can't understand the simple, gets a little old. Sorry.

The challenge is still there.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*From the ignorance is bliss files look at this CON at work*

Tory MP to his South Asian constituents: Do you speak ‘Indian’? - The Globe and Mail

He will not make this mistake again.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, chit, chapati"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Who has time for 150 year old land claims when we have TARsands oil to sell*

Harper’s expected early exit won’t diminish “historic” meeting with chiefs: Atleo | APTN National News

No time left for you.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, I thought ol'harper might take first nations seriously"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Christie Blatchford baffled by Harper's prison BUILD policy*

Christie Blatchford on prison farms: Stephen Harper missed the boat on cows, inmates and lessons in tenderness | Full Comment | National Post

Yeah yeah yeah we all know they're refurbing old prisons not adding new cells:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit, with a falling crime rate let's build more prison space"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*And courtesy of your tax $'s at work*





+
]RMR: Radical Groups - YouTube



+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.




" title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video






]RMR: Radical Groups - YouTube



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## SINC

Ah, the serenity, the peace, the forgetting of childish crap. Every time I visit this thread now, all I see is this, which just makes me smile. Keep beating your head against the wall jimbo, its a lot of fun now.


----------



## groovetube

the head banging happened long before jimbo arrived.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Well podner don't squat with yer spurs on hear.


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## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> +
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+


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## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> Gotta love the fake laughtrack...:clap:


Admittedly not quite as good as the real laugh track at my house.:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Gotta love the fake laughtrack...:clap:


blue ontario? Dream on pal!


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Admittedly not quite as good as the real laugh track at my house.:lmao::lmao::lmao:


Sounds great, perhaps you should record it for Mercer, it would improve his show tremendously...

Blatchford surprised me tho, I think she's getting soft in her old age. 

*
*


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> blue ontario? Dream on pal!


Just noticed that eh?:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

I did not say that. And your post is a word salad. Please reformat.

Sorry, I don't know where all that came from.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Christie Blatchford on prison farms: Stephen Harper missed the boat on cows, inmates and lessons in tenderness | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah we all know they're refurbing old prisons not adding new cells:lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Chit, with a falling crime rate let's build more prison space"





jimbotelecom said:


> +
> ]RMR: Radical Groups - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> +
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> 
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> 
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> +
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+


jimbotelecom said:



Well podner don't squat with yer spurs on hear.

Click to expand...




jimbotelecom said:


> Admittedly not quite as good as the real laugh track at my house.:lmao::lmao::lmao:





SINC said:


> Ah, the serenity, the peace, the forgetting of childish crap. Every time I visit this thread now, all I see is this, which just makes me smile. Keep beating your head against the wall jimbo, its a lot of fun now.


The best laid plans of mice and men thwarted for the enjoyment of those that wish point out every time JNN is quoted for even the blocked, all is revealed. 

Just so you can follow along, but I bet you knew that already " title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video








jimbotelecom said:



Well podner don't squat with yer spurs on hear.

Click to expand...




jimbotelecom said:


> Admittedly not quite as good as the real laugh track at my house.:lmao::lmao::lmao:





SINC said:


> Ah, the serenity, the peace, the forgetting of childish crap. Every time I visit this thread now, all I see is this, which just makes me smile. Keep beating your head against the wall jimbo, its a lot of fun now.


The best laid plans of mice and men thwarted for the enjoyment of those that wish point out every time JNN is quoted for even the blocked, all is revealed. 

Just so you can follow along, but I bet you knew that already ">


jimbotelecom said:



Well podner don't squat with yer spurs on hear.

Click to expand...




jimbotelecom said:


> Admittedly not quite as good as the real laugh track at my house.:lmao::lmao::lmao:





SINC said:


> Ah, the serenity, the peace, the forgetting of childish crap. Every time I visit this thread now, all I see is this, which just makes me smile. Keep beating your head against the wall jimbo, its a lot of fun now.


The best laid plans of mice and men thwarted for the enjoyment of those that wish point out every time JNN is quoted for even the blocked, all is revealed. 

Just so you can follow along, but I bet you knew that already " />

ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Just noticed that eh?:lmao:


Blue Ontario, lack of oxygen getting to the brain as well?


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> Blue Ontario, lack of oxygen getting to the brain as well?


Absolutely, all those poor Liberal voters who voted Dalton back in.


----------



## groovetube

there's that many liberals in ontario?

Who knew?


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha ha ha



> In his six years in power, Stephen Harper has successfully positioned the Conservatives as the party of neither the left, nor of the right, but of the deeply stupid. And as Canadians have come to realize, when Tony Clement is sent out to sell a policy, things are about to get seriously neuronally challenged.
> 
> Read more: Policy for the neuronally challenged


Policy for the neuronally challenged


----------



## kps

_And_ speaking of the "neuronally challenged" the author and managing editor ...a Mr. Andrew Potter needs to go back for some re-edumakation in english grammar considering how many sentences he started with_ And_ and_ But _. 

I at least have an excuse for my bad grammar, but a managing editor of a major daily?


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha ha ha ha
> 
> 
> 
> Policy for the neuronally challenged





Ottawa Citizen said:


> But in his drunkard’s walk through Stephen Harper’s cabinet, from Health to Industry to the Treasury Board, Tony Clement has earned a more precise title: Minister of Everything Stupid.


 But,and best line ever. 

I was told Clement's tweets are funny, I guess not witty, maybe "stupid funny."


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> _And_ speaking of the "neuronally challenged" the author and managing editor ...a Mr. Andrew Potter needs to go back for some re-edumakation in english grammar considering how many sentences he started with_ And_ and_ But _.
> 
> I at least have an excuse for my bad grammar, but a managing editor of a major daily?


I think you got a little fury on ya.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> But,and best line ever.
> 
> I was told Clement's tweets are funny, I guess not witty, maybe "stupid funny."


the whole thing was funny. But that was pretty classic. Expect the rank and file to get all puffed about it in the morning.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You and macfury, seem very confused by this. Perhaps you're both just a little threatened by all this, because I think what I've suggested, certainly bryanc is far better at articulating things than I can hope to be, is really quite simple.
> 
> Just because they 'can', doesn't mean they all do. But that's rather obvious, does even the most obvious need to be articulated too? Isn't this a rather simple concept? But as I have said several times, and you've clearly been very insulted by the idea, one doesn't need to look very far for a very large number of examples of corporations, who have knowingly put people's lives at risk, and has done things that has resulted in the deaths of a great number of people. And they still are! You both want to chortle about arguments not being properly made, when, neither of you seem to have the capacity to stop and consider than even just the tobacco industry alone, can serve as an excellent example of what I'm talking about. _And that, is just the tip of the iceberg._ No, both of you can only dart around in circles, because I suspect you both know full well that what I am saying is true. Both of you can run around in circles, and pretend all this isn''t true. But it isn't me playing the fool.
> 
> 
> 
> See above. I don't think this is something you -can- address. But you are welcome at any time to refute what I have said as not true.
> 
> I suggest starting with the tobacco industry...
> 
> Here's a safe prediction. You don't.


Is there an echo is here... no I think it is a broken record skipping over and over... so much for the new and improved gt back to the same old same old, but who could be surprised... new year resolutions typically don't last very long.

An ego on steroids gets very tiresome very quickly. 

See ya. XX)


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Is there an echo is here... no I think it is a broken record skipping over and over... so much for the new and improved gt back to the same old same old, but who could be surprised... new year resolutions typically don't last very long.
> 
> An ego on steroids gets very tiresome very quickly.
> 
> See ya. XX)


That's funny. I just sent someone a pm saying, screature ignoring me in 3... 2... 1...

I am the same gt today as I was last week.

Here you go once again getting all personal and serious again. If you can't deal with the conversation then why get into it? Your pal macfury is completely incapable of answering any questions, he can certainly mouth off and throw his passive aggressive jabs, then hiding behind his English lit professor persona to avoid actual conversation, but you at least got to a certain point until you pull the usual agree to disagree cop out, and now this childish crap.

I'm perfectly happy to have conversations even if we disagree. Because I don't care, I don't feel threatened by the disagreement and freak out. But I just don't take it quite as seriously as you.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON donations and strong National Citizens Coalition ties*

Donations lists to Tories, National Citizens Coalition, partly overlap

Surprise surprise!

Brought to you by JNN - "no chit eh"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*MacKay hopping' on copters but depriving Canada's finest of stress balls*

Military stress ball contract squashed by MacKay - CBC News

Shame Shame!

Brought to you by JNN - "Support our troops donate a stress ball"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Military stress ball contract squashed by MacKay - CBC News
> 
> Shame Shame!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Support our troops donate a stress ball"


You would think the government should be more forth coming about the actions of a spy rather the saving the cost stress balls.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Donations lists to Tories, National Citizens Coalition, partly overlap
> 
> Surprise surprise!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "no chit eh"


These people want to control everything. Quite the pathology.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> These people want to control everything. Quite the pathology.


this is ok because it benefits the tories. Tory supporters are only against something if it is viewed to benefit say, the liberals. Then, it's criminal, slush funds, law breaking, pinkos.

It isn't likely that Harper would do anything about it, since it benefits him, but I say fair is fair. The liberals are free to do the same thing. As long as the other parties can play the same game, then it's a level playing field in my estimation.


----------



## groovetube

Isn't it adorable when cons shriek about foreign interests hijacking things?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


nice.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Isn't it adorable when cons shriek about foreign interests hijacking things?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I am pleased to see Kathryn's message track condensed to its essence. Done to perfection! :clap:


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Funny but sadly so true.


----------



## groovetube

I can hear the thunderin hooves now...


----------



## Macfury

The thunderin' hooves have left the building for places where debate is qualified as more than whatever happens to randomly leak from the poster's orifices at postin' time.

Over.


----------



## groovetube

no it hasn't.

If your posting style, and contribution to this thread is any indication of what is "qualified debate", that's beyond funny. Anyone can review your contribution to this thread as evidence.

You whine a lot about what is and isn't good enough for you, but somehow, you never, show any evidence of actually being able to show what that is. 

Funny that.


----------



## groovetube

So it seems the two whiners created a second thread. What they don't get, is the Political discussions were to be kept, in one thread.

So they complained that someone posted news articles with a comment, and they do the same thing only it being strictly con approved. Isn't this the same attitude our government gives us?DO NOT QUESTION. Witness the handful of times I questioned macfury about his little quips. Not once, did he ever explain himself. Why? Because cons don't like to be backed into a corner by being asked to explain their position, because it opens them up to be debated. And that's NOT what they want.

I say political discussion still be kept to one thread. It shows a complete lack of respect when one simply wants to set the rules for everyone in the thread. This thread is for anyone who posts news articles to spark discussion, and anyone, qualified in macfury's eyes or not, offer their two cents. If news articles and opinions tend to be one sided, well, off your "other side"

People need to grow up and accept the fact that debates don't always, have to end in agreement. It's called... life. One can easily walk away from here, without having agreed with anyone, and not lose an arm. The sooner some figure this out, the sooner living inside one thread will be easier.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> So it seems the two whiners created a second thread. What they don't get, is the Political discussions were to be kept, in one thread.
> 
> So they complained that someone posted news articles with a comment, and they do the same thing only it being strictly con approved. Isn't this the same attitude our government gives us?DO NOT QUESTION. Witness the handful of times I questioned macfury about his little quips. Not once, did he ever explain himself. Why? Because cons don't like to be backed into a corner by being asked to explain their position, because it opens them up to be debated. And that's NOT what they want.
> 
> I say political discussion still be kept to one thread. It shows a complete lack of respect when one simply wants to set the rules for everyone in the thread. This thread is for anyone who posts news articles to spark discussion, and anyone, qualified in macfury's eyes or not, offer their two cents. If news articles and opinions tend to be one sided, well, off your "other side"
> 
> People need to grow up and accept the fact that debates don't always, have to end in agreement. It's called... life. *One can easily walk away from here, without having agreed with anyone, and not lose an arm. The sooner some figure this out, the sooner living inside one thread will be easier*.


Most have except for the 5 or 6 of us left here, but even I don't have the time to keep up sometimes. LOL


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Most have except for the 5 or 6 of us left here, but even I don't have the time to keep up sometimes. LOL


well you and I both know the one poster who has driven a quality poster or two away.


----------



## kps

Ehmac for me is not a place where to be serious when it comes to politics. Politics on ehmac should not be taken too seriously, because as far as I'm concerned all politicians and political parties deserve large amounts of ridicule and discord.


----------



## groovetube

Agreed. This thread is wide open for that sort for all parties. You'll find entry of lefties willing ridicule liberals or dippers, but it appears many cons are a little sensitive, unlike yourself of course.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Funny but sadly so true.


Isn't it amazing, how loud they were in proclaiming how Canadians want an honest, OPEN, and accountable government? And, they were the ones to deliver on this?

What we ended up with, is likely the most secretive government in our history.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*U.S. General against keystone TARSANDS pipe*

Listening to General Anderson: Keystone XL tar sands pipeline would set back clean energy by 20 years | Susan Casey-Lefkowitz's Blog | Switchboard, from NRDC

Support the troops!!!!!!!!! And thanks to KPS for his good sense of humour.

Brought to you by JNN - "driving the chit out of da tread"


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Geez, what the hell happened with political discussions on ehMac? It's become boring, stupid and pointless. Pots calling out others kettles back and forth.

I used to post here, not in the hopes of changing an opponents mind, but to present my case to all those who read the threads but rarely or never commented. Now I can't imagine that anyone on ehMac, outside of those who keep posting to these political threads would bother even looking. 

Obviously there's way too much personal animus between the few that keep posting here for these threads to be anything more than petty bickering. 

See ya later.


----------



## groovetube

Well 2 of the pots have left. That should help.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Abandon Ship!*

Yup gone with the wind.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Geez, what the hell happened with political discussions on ehMac? It's become boring, stupid and pointless. Pots calling out others kettles back and forth.
> 
> I used to post here, not in the hopes of changing an opponents mind, but to present my case to all those who read the threads but rarely or never commented. Now I can't imagine that anyone on ehMac, outside of those who keep posting to these political threads would bother even looking.
> 
> Obviously there's way too much personal animus between the few that keep posting here for these threads to be anything more than petty bickering.
> 
> See ya later.


Agreed. If interested in actual discussion as opposed to the abyss that exists here why not consider contributing to the The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread, where at least there is an attempt at creating real discussion despite the incursions of the usual suspect to derail that thread as well...

Your voice would be welcome. Even though we seldom agree, your postings are reasoned and educated and I respect your opinion.

The "highschool" antics of this thread have driven reasoned thoughtful people away... perhaps we can start anew elsewhere...

Regrettably it will most likely degrade into the same abyss as exists here... time will tell, but this thread has had its day. XX)

If you choose to abandon speaking to things political altogether here I can completely understand.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Agreed. If interested in actual discussion as opposed to the abyss that exists here why not consider contributing to the The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread, where at least there is an attempt at creating real discussion despite incursions of usual suspect to derail that thread as well...
> 
> Your voice would be welcome. Even though we seldom agree, your postings are reasoned and educated.
> 
> The "highschool" antics of this tread have driven reasoned thoughtful people away... perhaps we can start anew elsewhere...
> 
> If you choose to abandon speaking to things political altogether here I can completely understand.


The only reason the abyss ever existed is because the pair of you are incapable of accepting disagreement. Macfury did nothing but continue to snipe behind someone's back, and you, go into complete meltdown if someone questions your opinion. GA is right when he says pots calling kettles, I get drawn into your dramas all the time. There's no need for it. You have yourself many times attacked others here, only to complain when someone does it back.

As I said, I'm perfectly happy to debate topics, and don't care if no one agrees with me. Ever even. But don't pretend you are the source of reasonable debate. I have seen you many times have a go with others here too. It is interesting, that the only two that seem to clash here with others, is you, and macfury.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Yup gone with the wind.


Your contributions are of significant contribution to the demise of this thread jimbo... 

Have fun with the converted... they will be all that is left soon enough.

Might I suggest you simply start a new thread called "Everything anti-Con" or some such... You will probably get many more responses and can gain much more of a "rock star" status which is what it seems you desire.


----------



## groovetube

For someone whining about "incursions", they seem to enjoy doing so themselves.

Keep up the posts Jimbo, they spark good debate. Even if the opinions aren't agreeable to everyone.


----------



## groovetube

*back to the topic...*

Now where were we, before the drama bubbled over.

There was some discussion about the superPAC thing in the US, and the fact that the Canadian political scene, largely Harper and co., benefiting greatly from this sort of permanent campaign mode system. Down in the US it's at fever pitch, these organizations organizing and spending millions smearing the other side(s). Is this the direction we are headed in Canada? It seems we are already far down this road, with Harper's smear campaigns of the liberal leaders. Here in Ontario, "independent groups" like Ontario's Working Families (website is mysteriously hacked... ). I saw this video, and chuckled (sadly) at the level at which the US has reached with these independent group's campaigns. It has almost... come to this.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## BigDL

We may have "the don't criticize Conservative government discussion thread" or a discussion of Canadian politics.

Sadly for some, the many news items and opinion pieces, lately do not show the current government in a positive light. This is what happens to sitting governments.

For a long time OGL's Government was able to control the messaging and had the media merely reprinting their press releases.

Since late last year OGL has been on the run since news of the Attawapiskat housing situation broke in late October/early November. 

The PM's confrontational style with the Attawapaiskat crisis and then last week, OGL through his Minion Oliver's statements put a chill on open discussion of the Northern Gateway Project. Seems the press is taking a harder line on the Government these days.

So the answer, for some is to criticize the links, or "leave in a huff or a minute and a huff" to quote Marx. These folks don't desire to address the opinion or the facts presented in the links, the desire seems to be to attack the individual who presented linked items. 

Yet some people can't stay away to enjoy their new found paradise. They return again and again to say your wrong, seems the only way some may validate their opinion or something like that.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Now where were we, before the drama bubbled over.
> 
> There was some discussion about the superPAC thing in the US, and the fact that the Canadian political scene, largely Harper and co., benefiting greatly from this sort of permanent campaign mode system. Down in the US it's at fever pitch, these organizations organizing and spending millions smearing the other side(s). Is this the direction we are headed in Canada? It seems we are already far down this road, with Harper's smear campaigns of the liberal leaders. Here in Ontario, "independent groups" like Ontario's Working Families (website is mysteriously hacked... ). I saw this video, and chuckled (sadly) at the level at which the US has reached with these independent group's campaigns. It has almost... come to this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


It does seem to be a feature that the Conservative Party has used extensively since Dion was elected leader of the Liberals.

Hopefully the Conservative's will burn through a pile of cash on paid advertising as other Parties are able to capitalise on the Web and social media to counter the Conservative negative messaging.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> It does seem to be a feature that the Conservative Party has used extensively since Dion was elected leader of the Liberals.
> 
> Hopefully the Conservative's will burn through a pile of cash on paid advertising as other Parties are able to capitalise on the Web and social media to counter the Conservative negative messaging.


The other parties, namely the liberals have a long way to go to catch up to the conservative party's warchest. I doubt there'll be enough time by the time they choose a leader to the next election.

And yeah, the two whined about the content. They simply didn't like not being able to control the message. So I predict things not going well with a split duplicate thread. I admin another place and the same thing occurred. It didnt have a good ending. It was better to contain it all in one thread, or a sub forum.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Well 2 of the pots have left. That should help.


And a third, blissfully ignored contributor to the thread's demise goes unscathed in your self-proclaimed unpartisan position.

Got a mirror?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And a third, blissfully ignored contributor to the thread's demise goes unscathed in your self-proclaimed unpartisan position.
> 
> Got a mirror?


First off I'm not nessecarily non-partisan. That seems to be someone else's claim. 

I'm not the whiner who sat in this thread for 250 pages and contributed nothing but snipes, jabs, grammar correction, and constant whining that no one was posting enough quality posts for him to grace us with a reasonable post. I don't seem to be the only one that get into squabbles with them too.

as I said, I'm more than happy to post, agree, and disagree. But I won't put up with being dragged in crap with drama queens. Sorry.

Now drop it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Now drop it.


Never did take orders from anyone who didn't sign my pay cheque. Nor have I ever listened to those who waste my time.


----------



## groovetube

Yet you insist, on wasting more time.

ENOUGH drama k?


----------



## groovetube

*once again, back on topic...*

Newt's upset at the SC primaries was a bit of a surprise, though I never thought Mitt was much of a candidate. But wasn't Newt part of the disaster that was the GOP back in the 90s?

The link to Canadian politics. Well Newt referred to our glorious leader Stephen Harper. I wonder just how helpful it is to Stephen Harper to be publically embraced by the likes of Newt. Canadians in general have shown they are uncomfortable with a prime minister viewed as in a US president's back pocket. Though I'm sure many con supporters would assert it would be the other way round.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Newt Gingrich makes PM Harper seem more liberal in a direct comparison. They are both in agreement with the desire to see Alberta oil flow south. Hopefully, PM Harper will not feel the same way about Canadian water flowing south, since once the taps are opened up, they can't be shut due to NAFTA regulations.


----------



## groovetube

Well, I think there's not a huge chance that Newt will actually succeed in winning over Obama, but, one should never underestimate voter anger over the economy not being fixed right the hell NOW. If Newt did win, (or another GOP candidate), it might be interesting to watch as Harper downplays the cozy relationship.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Well, I think there's not a huge chance that Newt will actually succeed in winning over Obama, but, one should never underestimate voter anger over the economy not being fixed right the hell NOW. If Newt did win, (or another GOP candidate), it might be interesting to watch as Harper downplays the cozy relationship.


Yes, it's voter anger over Congress in particular and Washington, DC in general, that might swing it to someone like Newt Gingrich. I don't feel that he has the answers to solving the real problems in America today. I know that this comment will open the door to those who will bash Pres. Obama out of habit without really thinking about the causal factors underlying these problems. Still, it would be an interesting election with Newt as the Republican candidate for president ................. and I would still be voting for Pres. Obama in the State of Georgia. We shall see.

I wonder how a Pres. Gingrich would deal with Canada, in terms of our oil, our water and our unprotected borders???


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Well, I think there's not a huge chance that Newt will actually succeed in winning over Obama, but, one should never underestimate voter anger over the economy not being fixed right the hell NOW. If Newt did win, (or another GOP candidate), it might be interesting to watch as Harper downplays the cozy relationship.


OGL had no difficulty switching allegiance between Bush II and BO (AKA Bush III). If the Newt (Bush IV?) becomes prez, I am sure King Harpo will willingly switch bums yet again.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, it's voter anger over Congress in particular and Washington, DC in general, that might swing it to someone like Newt Gingrich. I don't feel that he has the answers to solving the real problems in America today. I know that this comment will open the door to those who will bash Pres. Obama out of habit without really thinking about the causal factors underlying these problems. Still, it would be an interesting election with Newt as the Republican candidate for president ................. and I would still be voting for Pres. Obama in the State of Georgia. We shall see.
> 
> I wonder how a Pres. Gingrich would deal with Canada, in terms of our oil, our water and our unprotected borders???


This is the worry, and one that Harper will face inevitably. He's going to have to go the extra step of branding himself as the guy, not the liberals who'll stand up to the Americans. That'll be a tough sell. They managed to brand themselves as the small government less spending despite the opposite being true, perhaps they -can- pull it off. They certainly have enough defenders despite what they actually do...

it doesn't seem though either dems -or- the GOP are addressing this addiction to bailouts. As long as banks etc. think there's taxpayer money to bail them out, this crash thingy will continue.


----------



## groovetube

EI financing agency spends millions doing nothing - Politics - CBC News

Has anyone seen this? In a period where everyone is hearing of budget cuts, belt tightening, job losses etc., we read about our 'focused like a laser on the economy' government and this.

A 3+million dollar agency with nothing, to do. It almost needs a monty python sketch to help laugh about it.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> EI financing agency spends millions doing nothing - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Has anyone seen this? In a period where everyone is hearing of budget cuts, belt tightening, job losses etc., we read about our 'focused like a laser on the economy' government and this.
> 
> A 3+million dollar agency with nothing, to do. It almost needs a monty python sketch to help laugh about it.





BigDL said:


> CRTC is which broadcast *Corporations's BITCH* again? The rulings served up by this regulator have nothing to do with the general public's interest in the public airwaves, now do they?
> 
> Seem to have inadvertently left off this Crown Corporation; *The Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board*, off the list. Think? Think? Think? Why? Why? Why could that be?
> 
> Do Nothing but wastes 3.3 Million Dollars
> 
> A do nothing, well except for moving to more prestigious diggs, whilst doing nada.


As it turns out I made mention of this item in this very thread at post 2363. 

This blatant *ironic behaviour* really can't be overstated and it needs to be brought to the attention of the citizenry more often.


----------



## groovetube

ah, I missed it throughout the whole I'm holier than thou phase.

It is still amazing how silent people are with these abuses. Are we now no longer interested in holding our government's feet to the fire?


----------



## Ottawaman

> Many Torontonians believed Mayor Rob Ford when, two weeks before the Oct. 25 election, he promised “services will not be cut, guaranteed.”


Rob Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## groovetube

Once again, the Harper government is caught red faced.

Not surprising.

Rich U.S. groups that funded environmentalists also gave to Canadian government - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Get your ass down here HARPER*

London, Ont. mayor to PM: 'Get your ass down here' | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

Uh oh so much for any stimulus spending in London!

Brought to you by JNN - "well at least he's trying to get attention".


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Oooops! Did somebody say spill?*

Enbridge probes cause of oil pipeline leak in N.W.T.

Just wait fer them there TARSANDS oil ta start floatin inta BC eh!

Brought to you by JNN - "chit it's a gusher!"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*How about a little focus on land claims*

Reversal of pipeline pact won't end blockade of B.C. treaty office - Winnipeg Free Press

This will be fun.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, the opposition is wilting".


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER - fact hater - muzzles science*

Writers want Ottawa to let scientists ‘speak for themselves’ - The Globe and Mail

Let's see who might be out of their jobs in a month or two.

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit it's a Monday and there;s a ton of stuff to do."


----------



## jimbotelecom

*More science denial from HARPER in the form of pig trough appointments*

Climate skeptics gathering influence in Tory Senate seats

A 2 for 1 deal. Pack the senate with CON pigs and deny climate disruption at the same time!

Brought to you by JNN - "a recognized supplier of chit on Harper and the cons since 2010".


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Writers want Ottawa to let scientists ‘speak for themselves’ - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Let's see who might be out of their jobs in a month or two.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Chit it's a Monday and there;s a ton of stuff to do."


I could never understand Harper's rational here. He seems to feel -they-, are paying these scientists so therefore they can muzzle them.

Who the hell does Harper think he is? That's taxpayers money, not his.


----------



## groovetube

Ontario fears federal crime bill will cost it $1B | CTV Toronto

So, now we'll have crime bill, which essentially will do pretty much nothing to address crime, except placate the conservatives in this country who think we need to throw at least a billion in each province into the fire.

Spend spend spend spend.....


----------



## i-rui

NDP calls on Clement to turn himself in to police over G8 'cover-up' - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> NDP calls on Clement to turn himself in to police over G8 'cover-up' - The Globe and Mail


I saw this. This isn't going away for mr. clement, it seems to me, when versions don't match facts or other's accounts, someone is lying.

Something stinks here big time, and it involves 50 million taxpayer dollars.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I saw this. This isn't going away for mr. clement, it seems to me, when versions don't match facts or other's accounts, someone is lying.
> 
> Something stinks here big time, and it involves 50 million taxpayer dollars.


I'll save the apologists the trouble.

"Mere chicken feed, as long as it's our guy everything is hunky dory"


----------



## kps

eMacMan said:


> I'll save the apologists the trouble.
> 
> "Mere chicken feed, as long as it's our guy everything is hunky dory"


Nothing worse than an Alberta leftie....  ( I kidddd)

Have you folks turfed Redford yet? I hear wild flowers blooming in the dead of a prairie winter. LOL


----------



## MLeh

eMacMan said:


> I'll save the apologists the trouble.
> 
> "Mere chicken feed, as long as it's our guy everything is hunky dory"


I take it you're paraphrasing Chretien during the inquiry into the sponsorship spending?


----------



## groovetube

so these tories are no better than chretien?

eeesh. Didn't we spank the liberals hard for this sort of thing?


----------



## MLeh

Same coin, different sides, perhaps?


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Enbridge probes cause of oil pipeline leak in N.W.T.
> 
> Just wait fer them there TARSANDS oil ta start floatin inta BC eh!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit it's a gusher!"


Much has been made, in the past, of the use of a measurement other than barrel, supposedly, for shock value.

The number of 1500 barrels is used in the linked story. My question is what size barrel? US Gallon or Imperial Gallon? 

When a factor of 1500 is used the size of a barrel would makes a difference. Couldn't the media attach the litre size of the barrel in question?

How many people can visualize what 1500 barrels might look like these days. Would a standard sized oil storage tank 200 Imperial Gallons be a more useful (or is that only useful in the eastern lands.) 

Why wouldn't litres be a more useful method to describe or compare oil spills or quantities of shipments? Aren't we trying to put into the minds eye what something might look like?


----------



## groovetube

MLeh said:


> Same coin, different sides, perhaps?


so it seems.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Much has been made, in the past, of the use of a measurement other than barrel, supposedly, for shock value.
> 
> The number of 1500 barrels is used in the linked story. My question is what size barrel? US Gallon or Imperial Gallon?
> 
> When a factor of 1500 is used the size of a barrel would makes a difference. Couldn't the media attach the litre size of the barrel in question?
> 
> How many people can visualize what 1500 barrels might look like these days. Would a standard sized oil storage tank 200 Imperial Gallons be a more useful (or is that only useful in the eastern lands.)
> 
> Why wouldn't litres be a more useful method to describe or compare oil spills or quantities of shipments? Aren't we trying to put into the minds eye what something might look like?


since the average person fills their vehicles with litres as opposed the barrels, it would make sense.

But barrels makes it seems a lot less, because how many people do you know really can visualize numbers in barrels?


----------



## groovetube

Terry Glavin: Canada sells the oil sands to China. Then complains about ‘foreign interference’ | Full Comment | National Post

The NP in an article not so complementary of the cons.


----------



## jimbotelecom

i-rui said:


> NDP calls on Clement to turn himself in to police over G8 'cover-up' - The Globe and Mail


This is starting to heat up. And to think the scallywag is in charge of treasury board.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Sault Ste Marie - CON minister lying local municipal staff embroiled in pig trough*

Sault EDC head prominent in accusatory Globe article

And this guy's in charge of treasury board?

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, not as good as Mulroney taking cash but lies are lies"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER and the CONs helping to educate our youth about the TARSANDS*

Imperial Oil's role in museum's energy exhibit questioned - Ottawa - CBC News

Can someone please say "corporate propaganda and information control"

Brought to you by JNN - "it's better in 2012 than 2011, chit yeah"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON rag weighs in on corporate interference promoting TARSANDS*

Science museum pressured by corporate sponsor over oilsands exhibit

When the cheerleaders ask questions you know there is trouble a brewin'

Brought to you by JNN - "quality CON activity reports since last year"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*More evidence of control freak HARPER*

Sen. Colin Kenny: Stephen Harper’s PR machine is harming Canada’s democracy | The Province

Working towards a minority.

Brought to you by JNN - "keeping the thread informed as to how Harper chits"


----------



## SINC

Dropped by to see if the children were still at play. Got my answer. Bye.


----------



## i-rui

what a child.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> what a child.


Agreed, he sure is.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> This is starting to heat up. And to think the scallywag is in charge of treasury board.





jimbotelecom said:


> Sault EDC head prominent in accusatory Globe article
> 
> And this guy's in charge of treasury board?
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit, not as good as Mulroney taking cash but lies are lies"





jimbotelecom said:


> Imperial Oil's role in museum's energy exhibit questioned - Ottawa - CBC News
> 
> Can someone please say "corporate propaganda and information control"
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "it's better in 2012 than 2011, chit yeah"





jimbotelecom said:


> Science museum pressured by corporate sponsor over oilsands exhibit
> 
> When the cheerleaders ask questions you know there is trouble a brewin'
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "quality CON activity reports since last year"





jimbotelecom said:


> Sen. Colin Kenny: Stephen Harper’s PR machine is harming Canada’s democracy | The Province
> 
> Working towards a minority.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "keeping the thread informed as to how Harper chits"


Worth repeating for your viewing pleasure.


----------



## SINC

There is little pleasure in watching a grown man make an, well, you know.


----------



## BigDL

We know all too well, unfortunately.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper+tarsands+sun media*

Emma Pullman | Friends with Benefits: The Harper Government, EthicalOil.org and Sun Media Connection

Someone in the blogosphere took the time to outline the connections in the CON PR campaign.

Brought to you by JNN - "exciting CON news since 2011 - chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Not so subtle CON pressure on donations to NGOs dedicated to wilderness*

Fired spokesman alleges PMO intimidation of pipeline opponent

Wilderness for Harper is a trip to Tim Horton's.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, I need to make a donation"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - the nation is strong!*

More Canadians in low-paying jobs - The Globe and Mail

Woops!

Brought to you by JNN - "lokin' good eh"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Emma Pullman | Friends with Benefits: The Harper Government, EthicalOil.org and Sun Media Connection
> 
> Someone in the blogosphere took the time to outline the connections in the CON PR campaign.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "exciting CON news since 2011 - chit"


Thanks.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Emma Pullman | Friends with Benefits: The Harper Government, EthicalOil.org and Sun Media Connection
> 
> Someone in the blogosphere took the time to outline the connections in the CON PR campaign.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "exciting CON news since 2011 - chit"


My,my!


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> More Canadians in low-paying jobs - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Woops!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "lokin' good eh"


A race for the bottom or OGL's plan right on track?


----------



## bryanc

jimbotelecom said:


> Emma Pullman | Friends with Benefits: The Harper Government, EthicalOil.org and Sun Media Connection
> 
> Someone in the blogosphere took the time to outline the connections in the CON PR campaign.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "exciting CON news since 2011 - chit"


Seems JNN is the closest thing we've got to a free press here in Canada. Why isn't this story a major topic on the National or other major media?!?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> *Seems JNN is the closest thing we've got to a free press here in Canada. *Why isn't this story a major topic on the National or other major media?!?


 Uhhmm the stories all come somewhere else. Ridiculous.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Uhhmm the stories all come somewhere else.


Presuming you mean "come *from* somewhere else", this does not take away from the fact that the popular press is doing an abysmal job of addressing these stories. WRT the case in point, either EthicalOil.org and the OurDecision.ca movements are egregious examples of Astroturfing and the Canadian public should be informed about the links to the Conservative party, or the claims being made in the links provided by JNN are untrue. Either way, some proper investigative journalism is in order, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Presuming you mean "come *from* somewhere else", this does not take away from the fact that the popular press is doing an abysmal job of addressing these stories. WRT the case in point, either EthicalOil.org and the OurDecision.ca movements are egregious examples of Astroturfing and the Canadian public should be informed about the links to the Conservative party, or the claims being made in the links provided by JNN are untrue. Either way, some proper investigative journalism is in order, wouldn't you agree?


Yes from... sorry on cold meds...

There are thousands of untold stories out there and it doesn't mean there isn't a free press in Canada... the twains of your argument/statement do not meet.


----------



## groovetube

and I'm glad someone brings these stories to our attention. Bryanc is correct, these stories especially like the one he mentioned needs to be brought out into the spotlight or at the very least, proper investigations of the facts are important.

Because we all, want to know the real truth, right?


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> There are thousands of untold stories out there and it doesn't mean there isn't a free press in Canada... the twains of your argument/statement do not meet.


I will admit to some hyperbole in my original post, but the lack of critical analysis and in-depth reporting in the mainstream media is appalling. If the government of Canada is employing a covert PR campaign to manipulate the public's understanding of major policy issues like oil pipelines and international trade agreements under the guise of a grass-roots non-partisan movement, I think that warrants significant media attention, don't you?

And, just out of curiosity, would it surprise you if Harper's "transparent" Government of Canada was engaged in theses sorts of dirty tricks? Because this is _exactly_ the sort of thing I would expect them to do.


----------



## i-rui

i actually posted an earlier version of that article a week or so ago. the new version more directly links sun media to ethical oil & the cons.

but i agree that it is a very important piece that everyone should read and speaks volumes about the problem of a government that is closer to it's corporations than it's people.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I will admit to some hyperbole in my original post, but the lack of critical analysis and in-depth reporting in the mainstream media is appalling. If the government of Canada is employing a covert PR campaign to manipulate the public's understanding of major policy issues like oil pipelines and international trade agreements under the guise of a grass-roots non-partisan movement, I think that warrants significant media attention, don't you?
> 
> And, just out of curiosity, would it surprise you if Harper's "transparent" Government of Canada was engaged in theses sorts of dirty tricks? Because this is _exactly_ the sort of thing I would expect them to do.


It doesn't seem covert to me at all. The gov has made it well known where they stand on the pipeline and the oil sands, that there are "connections" to third parties in that position should come as of no surprise to anyone at least to anyone with any knowledge as to how the world works.

Happen to notice Emma Pullman's connections?


----------



## groovetube

To the contrary, these "grass roots" movements are not at all transparent about their connections, and neither is the conservative government.

I would like to be proved wrong by public admissions of these links by either of them.


----------



## BigDL

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Did anyone notice this Ad for the Canadian Heart and Stroke foundation commercial mentions these guys: 
Bob, Jack and Stevo the Joker 























Also the ironic or coincidental tag line: "death will take one in three before their time."

(note: the picture of Jack Layton was the smallest I could find.)


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone notice this Ad for the Canadian Heart and Stroke foundation commercial mentions these guys:
> Bob, Jack and Stevo the Joker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the ironic or coincidental tag line: "death will take one in three before their time."
> 
> (note: the picture of Jack Layton was the smallest I could find.)


You are truly grasping at straws... OMG... Jack didn't even die from heart disease...

Seek help soon... you are losing it...  I mean seriously... your conspiracy theories are getting so out of control I worry for you...

Watch out for the next black SUV parked close by... they could be watching/listening to you.... but then again what are you up to....

It is really sad that this thread has come to this... so be it...

No intelligent discussion... and the alt thread hasn't taken off... just the converted speaking to the converted, such a sad state of affairs really, all too much like Question Period...

JNN at work... the slow demise... all for the sake of one person's ego...


----------



## i-rui

i think BigDL was just pointing out an interesting coincidence with the commercial that has a link to canadian politics.

I don't think he's suggesting the commercial is evidence of a conspiracy to kill our party leaders with heart disease.

wow.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You are truly grasping at straws... OMG... Jack didn't even die from heart disease...
> 
> Seek help soon... you are losing it...  I mean seriously... your conspiracy theories are getting so out of control I worry for you...
> 
> Watch out for the next black SUV parked close by... they could be watching/listening to you.... but then again what are you up to....
> 
> It is really sad that this thread has come to this... so be it...
> 
> No intelligent discussion... and the alt thread hasn't taken off... just the converted speaking to the converted, such a sad state of affairs really, all too much like Question Period...
> 
> JNN at work... the slow demise... all for the sake of one person's ego...


:clap: Spectacular!

Wow! Talk about over thinking something or anything.

It struck me that the names used are Bob, Jack and Stevo the Joker. 

The names could have been Fred, Ed and Ted the talker or Mike, John and Patty the drunk but no the copy writer(s) did not use other names. The copy writer happen to choose the names of party leaders since the last election. When the names were chosen or why those particular names were in the copy could be up for discussion if somebody is to over think the proposition.

Yes I am well aware Mr. Layton's likely cause of death was metastasized cancer or complications from cancer. I have not heard the official COD.

I haven't any idea when the Ad was conceived and written. I merely commented on the irony or coincidence of the names used and the concept that one of the three of these leaders died, by most accounts, "before his time."


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i think BigDL was just pointing out an interesting coincidence with the commercial that has a link to canadian politics.
> 
> I don't think he's suggesting the commercial is evidence of a conspiracy to kill our party leaders with heart disease.
> 
> wow.


this.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*BC - CONS sinking in polls!*

Local News Story

Brought to you by JNN - "chit it's one ego at a time hear!"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Up next the story of one person's ego!*

:d


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i think BigDL was just pointing out an interesting coincidence with the commercial that has a link to canadian politics.
> 
> I don't think he's suggesting the commercial is evidence of a conspiracy to kill our party leaders with heart disease.
> 
> wow.





BigDL said:


> :clap: Spectacular!
> 
> Wow! Talk about over thinking something or anything.
> 
> It struck me that the names used are Bob, Jack and Stevo the Joker.
> 
> The names could have been Fred, Ed and Ted the talker or Mike, John and Patty the drunk but no the copy writer(s) did not use other names. The copy writer happen to choose the names of party leaders since the last election. When the names were chosen or why those particular names were in the copy could be up for discussion if somebody is to over think the proposition.
> 
> Yes I am well aware Mr. Layton's likely cause of death was metastasized cancer or complications from cancer. I have not heard the official COD.
> 
> I haven't any idea when the Ad was conceived and written. I merely commented on the irony or coincidence of the names used and the concept that one of the three of these leaders died, by most accounts, "before his time."


Really such innocence...  no innuendo at all carry on.. maybe you can convince yourselves... seeing as your posts address no one else it shouldn't be too hard...


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Up next the story of one person's ego!
> 
> :d


We all know who that would be.... JNN... check the post count of this thread lately... I mean seriously.... :d yourself.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Local News Story
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit it's one ego at a time hear!"


.


----------



## groovetube

maybe if we all spent less time crapping about the news reports and chatting about their contents, that'd improve the nature of this thread entirely right there.

I understand not everyone likes the subject matter, but hey, it -is- canadian politics, and generally, people will spend a lot of time criticizing the government of the day.

That's just how it is.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> .





screature said:


> Really such innocence...  no innuendo at all carry on.. maybe you can convince yourselves... seeing as your posts address no one else it shouldn't be too hard...





screature said:


> We all know who that would be.... JNN... check the post count of this thread lately... I mean seriously.... :d yourself.


Agenda on, controls set, flaps up.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> maybe if we all spent less time crapping about the news reports and chatting about their contents, that'd improve the nature of this thread entirely right there.
> 
> I understand not everyone likes the subject matter, but hey, it -is- canadian politics, and generally, people will spend a lot of time criticizing the government of the day.
> 
> That's just how it is.


Good post groove and fair enough... 

Just less drive by link posting without any value added remarks would be appreciated...

Post links by all means but have something to say beyond a one liner... It is much more interesteing when there is a discussion... I already have a bookmark to nationalnewswatch.com. I don't need a second. My 2 cents...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Agenda on, controls set, flaps up.


Like I said...


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> maybe if we all spent less time crapping about the news reports and chatting about their contents, that'd improve the nature of this thread entirely right there.
> 
> I understand not everyone likes the subject matter, but hey, it -is- canadian politics, and generally, people will spend a lot of time criticizing the government of the day.
> 
> That's just how it is.


For some reason some members can't deal with reality. 

The NDP currently without a Leader (yes they have an Interim Leader at the moment) have and are being an effective opposition.

It was the NDP that put the First Nations's situation on the National Agenda, to the point where yesterday, OGL spent a day and a bit conversing with aboriginal leaders.

The NDP have been raising the issue of the misdeeds of misappropriated funds (from boarder security) on the riding in the Muskoka area as a purchase for Tony Clement. This issue which was to go away by the fall is still going nearly a year after the dastardly deeds were first raised as an issue.

The Conservatives are not nearly as popular as they once were and have lost some of their control on the political agenda presently.

Then there are citizens that seemingly just like to draw attention to themselves and can't stand being ignored.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*More on CONS methods used to promote TARSANDS pipe sale to commies*

"Scary time" for Canada | The Vancouver Observer

This article is a little more in depth. I like the interview with Bennett from Sierra who likens the CON tactics to "McCarthyesque"

Brought to you by JNN - "chit who needs an ego when you look at this mess"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Crime drop - the public gets it - CONS not so much*

Canadians finally getting it: crime is on the decline - The Globe and Mail

I sure hope we see a significant scaling back of a plan to build more prison cells.

Brought to you by JNN - "throw him/her in jail for smoking a joint - chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER message to Davos - out of sinc (pun intended) - capitalism questioned*

Occupy Davos? Leaders greeted by doubts about capitalism - Politics - CBC News

Milewski is one of the few reporters to ask Harper difficult questions that leave OGL looking bad. He has been punished as a result. So much for free press. transparency and accountability.

Brought to you by JNN - "helping the blind see since 2011, chit".


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> "Scary time" for Canada | The Vancouver Observer
> 
> This article is a little more in depth. I like the interview with Bennett from Sierra who likens the CON tactics to "McCarthyesque"
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit who needs an ego when you look at this mess"


Whether the issue "McCarthyesque tactics" are true or not I can't say. I will say OGL does like him some wedge issues.

He likes politics that divides groups of people. It seems to energize his supporters and hurts his opposition.

In this way he reminds me of Pierre Trudeau and this IMHO makes a miserable PM.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Occupy Davos? Leaders greeted by doubts about capitalism - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Milewski is one of the few reporters to ask Harper difficult questions that leave OGL looking bad. He has been punished as a result. So much for free press. transparency and accountability.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "helping the blind see since 2011, chit".


Perhaps OWS and the other occupy sites were not for not.

A message of everyone has to rise with the economic tides and having many people struggling and drowning when economic times are providing plenty. When profits are up people must have jobs with reasonable pay, to make the economic engine ticking along nicely.

Now I understand the phrase "reasonable pay" could cause a few pages of discussion, even in a thread like this one, where we usually have such unanimity.


----------



## screature

It must be a lot of fun posting to an echo chamber and preaching to the converted... 

Kind of like a Sunday church revival... Hallelujah!! 

Amen brother, Amen!

Turn to page 318 in your Hymnals...

"*We shall overcome*"

We shall overcome, we shall overcome,
We shall overcome someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We shall overcome someday.

The Lord will see us through, The Lord will see us through,
The Lord will see us through someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We shall overcome someday.

We're on to victory, We're on to victory,
We're on to victory someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We're on to victory someday.

We'll walk hand in hand, we'll walk hand in hand,
We'll walk hand in hand someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We'll walk hand in hand someday.

We are not afraid, we are not afraid,
We are not afraid today;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We are not afraid today.

The truth shall make us free, the truth shall make us free,
The truth shall make us free someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
The truth shall make us free someday.

We shall live in peace, we shall live in peace,
We shall live in peace someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We shall live in peace someday.


----------



## bryanc

As I've said before, I'm finding lots of new and interesting information in this thread. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya on the a$$ on the way out.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> As I've said before, I'm finding lots of new and interesting information in this thread. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya on the a$$ on the way out.


I have to say that strikes me as really funny--a scientist who can't simply google the news to find articles critical of the Conservatives. It ain't rocket science...


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> It must be a lot of fun posting to an echo chamber and preaching to the converted...
> 
> Kind of like a Sunday church revival... Hallelujah!!
> 
> Amen brother, Amen!
> 
> Turn to page 318 in your Hymnals...
> 
> "*We shall overcome*"
> 
> We shall overcome, we shall overcome,
> We shall overcome someday;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> We shall overcome someday.
> 
> The Lord will see us through, The Lord will see us through,
> The Lord will see us through someday;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> We shall overcome someday.
> 
> We're on to victory, We're on to victory,
> We're on to victory someday;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> We're on to victory someday.
> 
> We'll walk hand in hand, we'll walk hand in hand,
> We'll walk hand in hand someday;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> We'll walk hand in hand someday.
> 
> We are not afraid, we are not afraid,
> We are not afraid today;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> We are not afraid today.
> 
> The truth shall make us free, the truth shall make us free,
> The truth shall make us free someday;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> The truth shall make us free someday.
> 
> We shall live in peace, we shall live in peace,
> We shall live in peace someday;
> Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
> We shall live in peace someday.


Amen, brother screature. Paix, mon ami.

"We Shall Overcome" - Martin Luther King, Jr. - YouTube

Joan Baez - We Shall Overcome (Live 1965) HQ Lyrics - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> As I've said before, I'm finding lots of new and interesting information in this thread. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya on the a$$ on the way out.


I agree. Great way to kickstart conversations in the thread. Of course anyone is free to add conversation starters at any time if the news on canada's "new government' seems rather gloomy.

As I said, would be nice to get to such conversations.


----------



## groovetube

Harper government plays down oil sands document - The Globe and Mail

Anyone see this? I don't know how anyone can be surprised that Canada's new government is merely a front for marketing Albertan oil. Or, it certainly seems to be that way with the number of interesting links being discovered between them, and the incredible ad campaigns being launched both "grassroots" and commercial for why oil is Canada's saviour.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I don't know how anyone can be surprised that Canada's new government is merely a front for marketing Albertan oil..


No surprise to me or any other 'Albertan'. None of us individually own any oil, as your post implies.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> No surprise to me or any other 'Albertan'. None of us individually own any oil, as your post implies.


I did not imply it. Whatsoever. 

Albertan oil because, it comes from alberta.

As for ownership, I never thought individual Albertans owned any of it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I did not imply it. Whatsoever.
> 
> Albertan oil because, it comes from alberta.
> 
> As for ownership, I never thought individual Albertans owned any of it.


I see, then try using the correct term. Alberta oil. There is no such thing as Albertan oil.


----------



## BigDL

groove, Albertans must only elect Albertas to the legislature. Must be like Australians who according to Monty Python, everyone is called Bruce.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> groove, Albertans must only elect Albertas to the legislature. Must be like Australians who according to Monty Python, everyone is called Bruce.


You guys amuse me with your misunderstanding of proper terminology. An Albertan is a resident of Alberta, just like a Torontonian is a resident of Toronto. 

Does a resident of Toronto own or visit Tornontonian city hall? Or do they watch the Torontonian Blue Jays? 

Nor do Albertans own oil. The province of Alberta owns the oil. Kinda like Toronto owns the TTS. Or is it the Torontonian Transit System now? 

Apparently you too have no idea BD.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> groove, Albertans must only elect Albertas to the legislature. Must be like Australians who according to Monty Python, everyone is called Bruce.


ha ha ha.

See SINC, you're not the only one amused. 

Hmm lets look online for a definition of Albertan.

presto! Albertan - definition of Albertan by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


adj
(Placename) of or relating to Alberta or its inhabitants
n
(Placename) a native or inhabitant of Alberta


"of *relating to Alberta*, OR, it's inhabitants.

Now, if it's not proper in Alberta, that's fine. I don't mind being corrected as to the proper terminology according to the residents of Alberta. But clearly, you understood what I said, but I think the subject matter, which was really the most important part, got lost.

Which is too bad. As I said, it would be nice, to get away from the constant complaining about news articles, and the twisting of terminologies derailing the actual subject matter.

As I said, I certainly don't mind being told what people in Alberta prefer. No harm in that.

But I'm guessing just about every other resident of Canada, would get exactly what I said.


----------



## Macfury

He dialled another wrong number, SINC. No hope here.


----------



## SINC

Nope, he just doesn't get it and even defends a glaring misuse by supplying a link to a dictionary that explains it correctly. I give up trying to explain to the "convinced I am right crowd".

I'll just leave him to cheer for the Torontonian Maple Leafs and vist Torontonian city hall to check on his tax bill. He obviously knows it all.


----------



## groovetube

No SINC. I'm sorry. Rather than explain what you thought was a misuse, you decided to pull the usual pissy crap. People complain if I do it, and say it ruins the tone of the thread.

and let's not bother with macfury's usual drive by...

Now, you're free to say why, you think it's a misuse, but the definition VERY CLEARLY said "relating to Alberta". So, if you consider this to be a correct definition, how is it you feel the oil from alberta, is not "relating to alberta"

You will notice the definition includes BOTH it's inhabitants, AND anything else that relates to Alberta. If the definition is wrong, and you wish to clear it up, fine. But address the subject matter too.

So, now that you've completely derailed the news item (again, like brother macfury and soldier screature), please explain the discrepancy, and for the love of god, let's please quit the childish crap, and move on with the subject at hand.

Please. For people so worried about DISCUSSION, y'all seem quite intent on killing any of it here. This is exactly, the sort of pesky crap that drives good posters away.


----------



## groovetube

groovetube said:


> Harper government plays down oil sands document - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Anyone see this? I don't know how anyone can be surprised that Canada's new government is merely a front for marketing Albertan oil. Or, it certainly seems to be that way with the number of interesting links being discovered between them, and the incredible ad campaigns being launched both "grassroots" and commercial for why oil is Canada's saviour.


I'm reposting since the usual suspects derailed the subject matter.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Please. For people so worried about DISCUSSION, y'all seem quite intent on killing any of it here. This is exactly, the sort of pesky crap that drives good posters away.


Oh my, there has indeed been plenty of that going on with the JNN chit for days now. Pot? Kettle?


----------



## groovetube

will the whining, please cease. News articles are welcome by most members of this thread, and you don't have to read it if you don't like it. I thought you have it on ignore, anyway.

On topic, now please.


----------



## groovetube

Prime Minister Harper unveils grand plan to reshape Canada - The Globe and Mail



> Although short on details, Mr. Harper’s speech to the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, on Thursday made clear the sweep of his ambition. He will change how Canadians finance their retirement. He will overhaul the immigration system. *He will make oil and gas exports to Asia a “national priority”* and aggressively pursue free trade in India and Europe.


I think Canadians need to wake up here. A "national priority"??? This is very telling. 

I understand that this may be something important, perhaps very much so to Alberta, fine. But a national priority?

Sorry.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> News articles are welcome by most members of this thread...


Three out of three... you're right!


----------



## groovetube

definitely more than 3. Certainly a larger majority than Harper could ever dream of. Now are you done derailing? Is there no "DISCUSSION" elsewhere good enough for you?

thankyou.


----------



## groovetube

groovetube said:


> I'm reposting since the usual suspects derailed the subject matter.





groovetube said:


> Prime Minister Harper unveils grand plan to reshape Canada - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> I think Canadians need to wake up here. A "national priority"??? This is very telling.
> 
> I understand that this may be something important, perhaps very much so to Alberta, fine. But a national priority?
> 
> Sorry.


reposting to push it ahead of the childishness that doesn't seem to cease.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER creates office that does nothing and spends over $1M per year*

Costly federal secretariat lives on with little to do - Politics - CBC News

Thanks Steve! Love the autoplant workers of London, Ontario.

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit, for most people a million is a lot of mullah".


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> reposting to push it ahead of the childishness that doesn't seem to cease.


Saw this. Of course Harper and the CONS never ran on pension reform or selling TARSANDS goop to the commies. We will have to wait for the details.


----------



## groovetube

No, they are pretty much counting on Canadians being for the most part, asleep. Often this is the case, but if they don't get the economy going as people expect them too, this isn't going to be the case for long.

edit: it seems BC voters are waking up. Check out the con next to the ndp numbers there.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Three out of three... you're right!


  What happened, this thread, "The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread" got too lonely?


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Costly federal secretariat lives on with little to do - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Thanks Steve! Love the autoplant workers of London, Ontario.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Chit, for most people a million is a lot of mullah".


Attaboi OGL disavow the secretariat before the tape burns out, but slap the seniors around, attaboi!


----------



## bryanc

Its ironic that the same posters who've been complaining that JNN posting news items about Canadian politics is not sufficiently substantive "discussion" (even to the extent of going and starting their own "DISCUSSION" thread where they can be all cozy and conservative by themselves), are now thread crapping with arguments about grammar and how many people like this thread. tptptptp


Back on topic, it seems clear that the Federal conservatives view themselves as a marketing agency for the multinational corporations exploiting Canada's natural resources. (BTW, while it may be legally correct to say that the oil is "owned" by Alberta, or Canada, that is only because we have arbitrarily made the laws that define it as such. From an ethical standpoint, how can individuals or even nations own something that formed as a result of natural processes that occurred long before our species even evolved? It's like saying we own the moons of Jupiter. We can say it as much as we want, but there's no rational basis for this claim.)

We have a similar issue here in NB, where a government official (who happens to be an immediate family member of the relevant cabinet minister) responsible for developing public policy on shale gas exploration has now been hired as a lobbyist for the shale gas industry. The conservatives are so cozy with corporations that it's no longer possible to distinguish between them.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> it seems BC voters are waking up. Check out the con next to the ndp numbers there.


What that graph shows is that the support for the NDP is coming at the expense of the liberals. One of the things the Conservatives have figured out is that by building their base from the social conservatives, they wind up with support that is faith-based, and therefore immune to facts and reason. Conservatives will vote conservative regardless of any evidence.

The rest of the parties have to fight for the 60% of the population that is capable of rational thought, but because there are several other parties, and there are rational arguments in support (and against) all of them, that majority of intelligent Canadians gets split up among several parties, and results in no one beating the conservatives.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> What that graph shows is that the support for the NDP is coming at the expense of the liberals. One of the things the Conservatives have figured out is that by building their base from the social conservatives, they wind up with support that is faith-based, and therefore immune to facts and reason. Conservatives will vote conservative regardless of any evidence.
> 
> The rest of the parties have to fight for the 60% of the population that is capable of rational thought, but because there are several other parties, and there are rational arguments in support (and against) all of them, that majority of intelligent Canadians gets split up among several parties, and results in no one beating the conservatives.


not totally, but you're right. The support for the conservatives, have also noticeably dropped. This could be because people there are realizing that not only is the cons not who they want having unfettered access to their province etc., but the libs and their mushy centre 'don't stand for anything' positions aren't going to do them much good either.

Interestingly, in quebec, the numbers are showing the opposite lately, the libs gaining at the expense of the ndp.


----------



## i-rui

i thought this was a great view of the oil sands :

Viable Opposition: Canada's Oil Sands: Are We Exporting Canada's Energy Security?



> Rather than rushing to export one of our most precious and critical domestic natural resources, perhaps it is time to form a long-term, exhaustive national plan for Canada's energy future, ensuring that sufficient resources exist for future generations of Canadians. Let's hope that we are not mortgaging our futures for the relatively short-term instant gratification of quick corporate profits for pipeline companies and the creation of a few transient jobs. We need to at least weigh the opinions of qualified researchers against those of politicians and Corporate Canada who have their own agendas that aren't necessarily in our long-term, best interests.


----------



## bryanc

*What a great idea!*



> *We need to at least weigh the opinions of qualified researchers against those of politicians and Corporate Canada who have their own agendas that aren't necessarily in our long-term, best interests.*


Not only with regard to oil, but also water, the climate, fisheries, education, medicine, etc. etc. etc.

By all means, let corporations do what they do best - make money for their shareholders. But don't let them determine public policy; good public policy is not necessarily in their best interests, and corporations will naturally act to oppose policy decisions that limit their ability to make as much money as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, the Conservatives (both federally and provincially, at least in New Brunswick) have lost track of this important issue, and now work almost exclusively in the interests of their corporate sponsors.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> As I've said before, I'm finding lots of new and interesting information in this thread. If you don't like it, *don't let the door hit ya on the a$$ on the way out.*


My my, touch a sore spot did I...


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> My my, touch a sore spot did I...


Not at all. I just can't understand why someone who vociferously complains about the lack of meaningful discussion in a thread persists in posting snide remarks in said thread. If you don't like it, why are you still here?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> My my, touch a sore spot did I...


As a scientist, bryanc can't find these articles on his own. Without jimbotelecom to google these articles for him he would be in the dark, so you would be plucking his thirsty lips from the fountains of knowledge.

Oh, by the way, see bryanc's post above--scientists should be in charge of all walks of life.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Not at all. I just can't understand why someone who vociferously complains about the lack of meaningful discussion in a thread persists in posting snide remarks in said thread. If you don't like it, why are you still here?


Cause it's a free internet.  Duh!

Geesh you guys you think you have exclusive rights to the place now...

If you think you are learning something by coming to this thread for JNN there is this little web site called National Newswatch Canada's National News Aggregator... it is where he gets 99.9% of his headlines...

And if you look you might even see a few things that haven't been pre-filtered for you by JNN, just in case you would like to actually read and decide for yourself.


----------



## bryanc

MacFury, how do you go from


> We need to at least weigh the opinions of qualified researchers against those of politicians and Corporate Canada


to


Macfury said:


> scientists should be in charge of all walks of life.


----------



## i-rui

re: screature, sinc, & macfury

I don't understand what the problem is.

If you don't like jimbo's posts then you should simply not respond to them.

if you find them SO annoying, then they can put him on your ignore list (and by putting him on your ignore list i mean actually ignoring him, not taking screen shots of you ignoring him, and then posting them in the political thread to let everyone else know how much you're ignoring him)

it really is that simple. This is the canadian political thread. Post & discuss things related to canadian politics.

At this point the three of you are just trolling in this thread.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> MacFury, how do you go from
> 
> to


 "Not only with regard to oil, but also water, the climate, fisheries, education, medicine, etc. etc. etc."


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> If you don't like jimbo's posts then you should simply not respond to them.


Yes. That is exactly what I have done. You'll notice my pointed ignoring of JNN all over this thread.

Of course, in ignoring JNN, that leaves fairly little to respond to....


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> "Not only with regard to oil, but also water, the climate, fisheries, education, medicine, etc. etc. etc."


Yes. With regard to all these things, research should be weighed against the politics and corporate interests. How does that translate to "scientists should be in charge of all walks of life"?!?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Yes. With regard to all these things, research should be weighed against the politics and corporate interests. How does that translate to "scientists should be in charge of all walks of life"?!?


You're right. I misread the quote. My apologies.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> re: screature, sinc, & macfury
> 
> I don't understand what the problem is.
> 
> If you don't like jimbo's posts then you should simply not respond to them.
> 
> if you find them SO annoying, then they can put him on your ignore list (and by putting him on your ignore list i mean actually ignoring him, not taking screen shots of you ignoring him, and then posting them in the political thread to let everyone else know how much you're ignoring him)
> 
> it really is that simple. This is the canadian political thread. Post & discuss things related to canadian politics.
> 
> At this point the three of you are just trolling in this thread.


I began ignoring his posts (no ignore list necessary) a while I ago, I still have every right to gripe about his single handed domination of the thread and so does anyone else who chooses to. Kind of like if you see a program that you enjoyed for years go down the crapper you have every reason and right to write to the network and let them now what you think.

Look at the history of this thread before and after JNN, aside from preaching to the converted and those who lament JNN everyone else has left, why because it is tiresome and boring to see the same tired worn out shtick everyday without any thought or discussion.

Why doesn't he just start a JNN thread and be done with it.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Yes. That is exactly what I have done. You'll notice my pointed ignoring of JNN all over this thread.
> 
> Of course, in ignoring JNN, that leaves fairly little to respond to....


Exactly...


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Yes. That is exactly what I have done. You'll notice my pointed ignoring of JNN all over this thread.
> 
> Of course, in ignoring JNN, that leaves fairly little to respond to....


not far off the mark, but if the constant whiners would just please grow up and simply do as you do, use the ignore feature if the posts isn't what you want, then perhaps the small attempts by myself, and a few others, such as it is, could get through the constant cries. I have never seen, so many people get so incredibly worked up over disagreements in my life.

I think this has been said far too many times now, I'm not holding my breath that certain people will finally quit the grammar police thread crapping routine, and allow others to use the thread.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> not far off the mark, but if the constant whiners would just please grow up and simply do as you do, use the ignore feature if the posts isn't what you want, then perhaps the small attempts by myself, and a few others, such as it is, could get through the constant cries. I have never seen, so many people get so incredibly worked up over disagreements in my life.
> 
> I think this has been said far too many times now, I'm not holding my breath that certain people will finally quit the grammar police thread crapping routine, and allow others to use the thread.


And for every gripe you gripe about the gripe so don't try and be all holier than thou.


----------



## kps

Oh cool....the thread is back to normal. :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> not far off the mark, but if the constant whiners would just please grow up and simply do as you do, use the ignore feature if the posts isn't what you want, then perhaps the small attempts by myself, and a few others, such as it is, could get through the constant cries. I have never seen, so many people get so incredibly worked up over disagreements in my life.
> 
> I think this has been said far too many times now, I'm not holding my breath that certain people will finally quit the grammar police thread crapping routine, and allow others to use the thread.





screature said:


> And for every gripe you gripe about the gripe so don't try and be all holier than thou.


Well, and there's the other reason why there's very little to respond to on this thread. :lmao:

I admit, I've participated in the gripe/snipe, and it has its charms, but not all the time.


----------



## groovetube

Ur probably right. From now on I will try not to encourage the stupidity.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Ur probably right. From now on I will try not to encourage the stupidity.


Does a faucet encourage water, or a cornstalk encourage cobs of corn?


----------



## Sonal

Now... to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak...

Harper considering raising OAS age to 67 | CTV News

Thoughts on raising OAS eligibility to 67? The reality is that many Canadians are working longer anyway. On the other hand, seems a bit unfair to those around retirement age, especially when most people's retirement investments have crapped out. 

I suspect the next election is a bit far out for this to hurt him too badly politically, since seniors tend to be voters....


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Now... to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak...
> 
> Harper considering raising OAS age to 67 | CTV News
> 
> Thoughts on raising OAS eligibility to 67? The reality is that many Canadians are working longer anyway. On the other hand, seems a bit unfair to those around retirement age, especially when most people's retirement investments have crapped out.
> 
> I suspect the next election is a bit far out for this to hurt him too badly politically, since seniors tend to be voters....


Well, luckily there shall still be $102 million contributed to the MP pension fund each year.

When you combine the dollar contribution and the guaranteed interest rate return, taxpayers contribute a total of $102 million to the fund every year, while MPs hand over about $4.5 million, according to the CTF's calculations.

MPs are eligible for the pension after serving at least six years in the House of Commons and can start collecting it when they turn 55.

So, let those seniors vote and vote and vote ............... so long as the MPs they are voting for have their pensions protected. 

As the sign says on the entrance of The House of Commons -- "We stand on guard for thee ............. and protect MP pensions". 

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## groovetube

I can't predict what the fallout from this will be. From my perspective it doesn't seem a large thing. But seniors have shown before they are passionate about these issues (as Mulroney found out the hard way) and I'm guessing they have longer attention spans than younger voters.


----------



## eMacMan

*All is Well in Harpo Land*

This may help to explain how the supposedly fiscally conservative Cons magically morphed surplus into deficit.



> *Costly federal appointments office has nothing much to do*
> 
> In the six years since the Harper government came to power, Canadian taxpayers have spent millions of dollars on supporting a federal appointments commission that doesn't exist.
> 
> The money has disappeared into a bureaucracy set up to support the commission — a bureaucracy that seems to have just about everything except a commission to support.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper personally announced the creation of the Public Appointments Commission in the spring of 2006, one of the first acts of his newly elected Conservative government and a centrepiece of its much-touted accountability policy.
> 
> At the same time, the government created a new federal department called the Public Appointments Commission Secretariat to support the commission with a budget of more than $1 million a year.
> 
> By cabinet decree, the secretariat reports directly to the prime minister.
> In theory, the commission was to oversee the hiring process for hundreds of federal boards and agencies, ensuring appointments are made on merit and not just doled out to partisan pals of the party in power.
> 
> It all sounded like a good idea at the time.
> 
> *But on the same day Harper introduced the new commission, he also announced its first commissioner would be respected Alberta businessman Gwyn Morgan, a prominent Conservative and friend of the PM.*
> 
> *A month later, the federal opposition parties voted to block Morgan's appointment.
> Visibly angered and embarrassed, Harper scrapped the commission in retaliation.
> But no one scrapped its bureaucracy, the appointments secretariat. Far from it.*
> 
> *The morning after Harper killed the commission, the secretariat's top bureaucrat, Peter Harrison, flew to London for a week of research....*


Costly federal appointments office has nothing much to do - Yahoo! News


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Costly federal secretariat lives on with little to do - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Thanks Steve! Love the autoplant workers of London, Ontario.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Chit, for most people a million is a lot of mullah".


Heard this on CBC Radio One news this morning. Good to know that JNN is onside with the latest news along with our own CBC. Keep up the good work.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Heard this on CBC Radio One news this morning. Good to know that JNN is onside with the latest news along with our own CBC. Keep up the good work.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Oops missed that posting amidst the background noise.

Certainly worth a reposting though.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I can't predict what the fallout from this will be. From my perspective it doesn't seem a large thing. But seniors have shown before they are passionate about these issues (as Mulroney found out the hard way) and I'm guessing they have longer attention spans than younger voters.


I think it may be more significant than issues like the oilsands or the crime bill. This directly affects people's wallets.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Oops missed that posting amidst the background noise.
> 
> Certainly worth a reposting though.


True. Still, at least our politians are safe in terms of protected pensions. As I was about to retire in 3 years, I am more and more convinced that I have to rely upon my own resources when I retire and not expect any sort of pension from the federal government. C'est la vie.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Three out of three... you're right!





screature said:


> My my, touch a sore spot did I...





screature said:


> Cause it's a free internet.  Duh!
> 
> Geesh you guys you think you have exclusive rights to the place now...
> 
> If you think you are learning something by coming to this thread for JNN there is this little web site called National Newswatch Canada's National News Aggregator... it is where he gets 99.9% of his headlines...
> 
> And if you look you might even see a few things that haven't been pre-filtered for you by JNN, just in case you would like to actually read and decide for yourself.





Macfury said:


> "Not only with regard to oil, but also water, the climate, fisheries, education, medicine, etc. etc. etc."





screature said:


> And for every gripe you gripe about the gripe so don't try and be all holier than thou.


It's OK! You don't have to suck hole to be our friends!

A rule of thumb for for Ehmac citizens, the poster moderate, in the main, the threads. 

As I recall the only ones excluded were those posters that excluded themselves.

I, for one, am pleased to see many joining into the discussions today. :clap:


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Now... to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak...
> 
> Harper considering raising OAS age to 67 | CTV News
> 
> Thoughts on raising OAS eligibility to 67? The reality is that many Canadians are working longer anyway. On the other hand, seems a bit unfair to those around retirement age, especially when most people's retirement investments have crapped out.
> 
> I suspect the next election is a bit far out for this to hurt him too badly politically, since seniors tend to be voters....





Dr.G. said:


> Well, luckily there shall still be $102 million contributed to the MP pension fund each year.
> 
> When you combine the dollar contribution and the guaranteed interest rate return, taxpayers contribute a total of $102 million to the fund every year, while MPs hand over about $4.5 million, according to the CTF's calculations.
> 
> MPs are eligible for the pension after serving at least six years in the House of Commons and can start collecting it when they turn 55.
> 
> So, let those seniors vote and vote and vote ............... so long as the MPs they are voting for have their pensions protected.
> 
> As the sign says on the entrance of The House of Commons -- "We stand on guard for thee ............. and protect MP pensions".
> 
> Paix, mon amie.


The two are separate issues. The MP pension is grossly over funded by the public and something needs to change on that front but to the twains do not meet when addressing problems with the OAS.

Here are some facts on the OAS:

The number of Canadians over the age of 65 will increase from 4.7 million to 9.3 million over the next 20 years. The OAS program was built when Canadians were not living as long as they are today.The cost of the OAS program will increase from $36B per year in 2010 to $108B per year in 2030. Meanwhile, by 2030, the number of taxpayers for every senior will be 2 – down from 4 in 2010. 

So clearly something has to be done to make it sustainable whether or not that is moving the year of collection to 67 or some other means, I'm not sure what the answer is, but if nothing is done OAS will not be sustainable going forward.


----------



## groovetube

Here's an alternative view posted in the G&M
The Economists - The Globe and Mail

And interestingly enough, I don't see any mention of this in their book of promises...
http://www.conservative.ca/media/ConservativePlatform2011_ENs.pdf


----------



## jamesB

screature said:


> The OAS program was built when Canadians were not living as long as they are today.


Add to that, I believe the OAS qualifying age used to be 70, so the payout if any was usually very brief.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> I think it may be more significant than issues like the oilsands or the crime bill. This directly affects people's wallets.


I should think crime bills and tar sands should be on everyone's minds.

The emphasis on the tar sands as a public policy affects the value of our dollar. The value of our dollar effects the price of goods that have a value added component when we export.

Having resource based jobs and not having jobs with a value added component effects our economy and our employment prospects.

Running an economy on service sector jobs may not provide the surplus cash to sustain the consumer based marketplace that is being relied upon currently.

As for the crime bills the downloading of cost on to the provinces and the cutting back of finances for providing healthcare, also a provincial responsibility stressing provincial budgets should concern many, I should think. There is only one tax payer for all levels of government.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> Now... to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak...
> 
> Harper considering raising OAS age to 67 | CTV News
> 
> Thoughts on raising OAS eligibility to 67? The reality is that many Canadians are working longer anyway. On the other hand, seems a bit unfair to those around retirement age, especially when most people's retirement investments have crapped out.
> 
> I suspect the next election is a bit far out for this to hurt him too badly politically, since seniors tend to be voters....


Sadly the people that this policy change will have the biggest impact upon are those in many service sector jobs.

Jobs where little money is left over to plan for retirement, jobs where the yearly income are well below the Yearly Maximum Pensionable Earnings YMPE (this determines how much CPP you shall receive), jobs that wear out the body as these are the jobs that involve the most physical labour.

For some people will never receive any CPP as they never contributed.

The people who can no longer work or people who might of had a small lift and a chance to save a little for retirement will be denied an important benefit.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Here's an alternative view posted in the G&M
> The Economists - The Globe and Mail
> 
> And interestingly enough, I don't see any mention of this in their book of promises...
> http://www.conservative.ca/media/ConservativePlatform2011_ENs.pdf


Doesn't really seem all that alternative... the facts are the same just the interpretation of those facts differ.

The impending Old Age crunch has been know by demographers and economists for decades... it nothing new and successive governments have done nothing to address it. 

That this one seems willing to address it, albeit not in a manner that is to everyone's liking is at least encouraging.

Something has to be done...

As for promises, they have been addressing those, despite the clamour from those who disagree with them, other issues are of pressing concern as well as is always the case, especially when not in a state of an ever present/imminent threat of an election, i.e. being a minority government.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Sadly the people that this policy change will have the biggest impact upon are those in many service sector jobs.
> 
> Jobs where little money is left over to plan for retirement, jobs where the yearly income are well below the Yearly Maximum Pensionable Earnings YMPE (this determines how much CPP you shall receive), jobs that wear out the body as these are the jobs that involve the most physical labour.
> 
> For some people will never receive any CPP as they never contributed.
> 
> The people who can no longer work or people who might of had a small lift and a chance to save a little for retirement will be denied an important benefit.


Don't kid yourself the "threat" is real to anyone without a retirement plan, service sector or not....

*Everyone* contributes/should contribute to CPP unless they are working under the table.


----------



## Sonal

I think the point raised in the G&M article groove posted is interesting.... as the population ages, it's health care costs, not OAS, that are projected to cost us the most. (The elephant vs the mouse, as stated in the article.) So why shrink the mouse, and at what cost to Canadians does that shrinkage come to, vs. the actual savings?

It's a known demographic problem, yes, and you could give credit for someone actually making an attempt at solving it, but is this really just a token solution?


----------



## BigDL

"The sky is falling the sky is falling?" 

An increase of 0.73 per cent of GDP at the projected "peak of this crisis" over today’s level is something to be managed but of course some will say the OAS must be eliminated because that is their world view. 



Economist G&M said:


> How will spending in Canada grow as the baby boomers age? By 2031 -- at the peak of the baby-boom retirement wave -- the share of GDP spent on Old Age Security will rise to *3.14 per cent, for an increase of 0.73 per cent over today’s level. Now, an increase of 0.73 per cent of GDP cannot be ignored, but neither is it disastrous.* To provide some scale, David Dodge and Richard Dion project that spending on health will grow from 12 per cent to 18.7 per cent of GDP by 2031, for an increase of 6.7 percentage points. In the fight for government spending dollars in 2031, health is the elephant and the Old Age Security pension is the mouse.


The Conservatives apparently are running with ideology once again. Facts don't matter, statistics are meaningless to these folks and soon statistics will be eliminated as part of their grand plan.

Using the OAS as a wedge issue, how low will OGL stoop, to harm and divide people is nauseating.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Don't kid yourself the "threat" is real to anyone without a retirement plan, service sector or not....
> 
> *Everyone* contributes/should contribute to CPP unless they are working under the table.


Ok! Please explain to me once again how a stay at home parent contributes/contributed to CPP.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Ok! Please explain to me once again how a stay at home parent contributes/contributed to CPP.


They don't... next....


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Doesn't really seem all that alternative... the facts are the same just the interpretation of those facts differ.
> 
> The impending Old Age crunch has been know by demographers and economists for decades... it nothing new and successive governments have done nothing to address it.
> 
> That this one seems willing to address it, albeit not in a manner that is to everyone's liking is at least encouraging.
> 
> Something has to be done...
> 
> As for promises, they have been addressing those, despite the clamour from those who disagree with them, other issues are of pressing concern as well as is always the case, especially when not in a state of an ever present/imminent threat of an election, i.e. being a minority government.


did you read the link? It doesn't say what you think it did at all...

Also note what was said about the costs of doing what Harper suggests.

I'd be interested in finding more opinions on this as well by those who would know more about this.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I think the point raised in the G&M article groove posted is interesting.... as the population ages, it's health care costs, not OAS, that are projected to cost us the most. (The elephant vs the mouse, as stated in the article.) So why shrink the mouse, and at what cost to Canadians does that shrinkage come to, vs. the actual savings?
> 
> It's a known demographic problem, yes, and you could give credit for someone actually making an attempt at solving it, but is this really just a token solution?


exactly. It seems the response to the looming health care costs is, here's some money, do with it what you will. And that's all you're getting so don't ask for more. At least, this is my simple interpretation of what recently happened.

I know there are some who applaud the idea of decentralization, and allow control at the provincial level. I'm not so sure this is a good idea. There has been a lot of talk about making health services more efficient, more cost effective. But it seems to me, at any level of government, be it conservative, or liberal, this never really occurs, other than simply cutting actual service. Witness the level of stupid with the finding of federal government created agencies will millions that apparently do nothing. We trust them to create efficient services?


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I think the point raised in the G&M article groove posted is interesting.... as the population ages, it's health care costs, not OAS, that are projected to cost us the most. (The elephant vs the mouse, as stated in the article.) So why shrink the mouse, and at what cost to Canadians does that shrinkage come to, vs. the actual savings?
> 
> It's a known demographic problem, yes, and you could give credit for someone actually making an attempt at solving it, but is this really just a token solution?


OAS is part of the equation in terms of cost... delaying the time of taping into the program by 2 years will save billions....

Health care is altogether another issue it does not mean that OAS is not a concern... 

Why do people think that one issue is to the exclusion of the other... this is the first to be addressed publicly, perhaps because it is the easiest to address....

Economists like Kevin Milligan make money by writing such articles... their intentions are highly suspect IMO... If they have solutions then publish those.... I suspect they don't have any solutions but writing such articles is an easy way to make a buck.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> did you read the link? It doesn't say what you think it did at all...
> 
> Also note what was said about the costs of doing what Harper suggests.
> 
> I'd be interested in finding more opinions on this as well by those who would know more about this.


Clearly I did... did you read my post...? I just didn't buy the rhetoric.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Economists like Kevin Milligan make money by writing such articles... their intentions are highly suspect IMO... If they have solutions then publish those.... I suspect they don't have any solutions but writing such articles is an easy way to make a buck.


digging past the "shoot the messenger" thing, are you saying you disagree with the article? That there won't be costs associated with raising the age to 67?

I didn't get the impression Sonal's post suggested the issues were 'exclusionary' at all. Just that perhaps, the focus of the "crunch" may be incorrect.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> digging past the "shoot the messenger" thing, are you saying you disagree with the article? That there won't be costs associated with raising the age to 67?
> 
> I didn't get the impression Sonal's post suggested the issues were 'exclusionary' at all. Just that perhaps, the focus of the "crunch" may be incorrect.


Who say's that is the focus.... it is one part of the equation....

Exactly what are those costs?? He makes no claim except to say reasearch in progress indicates... yeah like research in progress indicates eating lots of carrots makes you healthier... 



> Whatever the fiscal savings of pushing up the Old Age Security retirement age, we also must consider the cost. The wellbeing of Canadian seniors has improved tremendously over the last 40 years -- higher incomes, better consumption, and healthier lives. However, in the years approaching retirement ages, an increasing number of Canadians are unable to work due to disability, declining job skills, or other reasons. In research in progress, I am finding that around three quarters of those not working in the years just before reaching age 65 have other sources of income sufficient to get them out of low-income range. Of course, the flipside is that one quarter of them do not. If the retirement age increases, these Canadians may suffer as they wait for their public pension cheques to begin flowing.


----------



## groovetube

I think we're now going in circles, so I'll bow out for now until I read more information, so this doesn't turn into another circus. Id be interested in why, you thought the article was merely rhetoric. The fact that he may have made money writing the article isn't reason enough to me. I think there are a lot of people with opinions who are all making money in this, so that's a bit of a red herring.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think we're now going in circles, so I'll bow out for now until I read more information, so this doesn't turn into another circus. Id be interested in why, you thought the article was merely rhetoric. The fact that he may have made money writing the article isn't reason enough to me. I think there are a lot of people with opinions who are all making money in this, *so that's a bit of a red herring*.


Perhaps... you could be right and like you I am dubious, undoubtedly for different reasons...

However this is nothing new for sure... the Old Age crisis has been known for decades... what to do about it is another matter and the article you linked to provides no solutions at all...


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> exactly. It seems the response to the looming health care costs is, here's some money, do with it what you will. And that's all you're getting so don't ask for more. At least, this is my simple interpretation of what recently happened.


It reminds me very much of what we've seen municipally with service cuts. 

Council overturned cuts that amounted to 0.2% of the budget. The Mayor took a hard line against that 0.2% based on budget a budget crisis due a need to pay down and invest in major capital items. But chipping off relatively tiny increments of the operating budget isn't going to solve that problem in any substantial way, and the cost to citizens is high.

Similarly, it seems that reducing the cost of OAS may not have the impact on the cost of Canada's aging population that is needed. Sounds a bit band-aidy.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> It reminds me very much of what we've seen municipally with service cuts.
> 
> Council overturned cuts that amounted to 0.2% of the budget. The Mayor took a hard line against that 0.2% based on budget a budget crisis due a need to pay down and invest in major capital items. But chipping off relatively tiny increments of the operating budget isn't going to solve that problem in any substantial way, and the cost to citizens is high.
> 
> Similarly, it seems that reducing the cost of OAS may not have the impact on the cost of Canada's aging population that is needed. Sounds a bit band-aidy.


Yes, it's a familiar tune.

In new news, ABORT!!! 

PMO backs away from proposed pension cuts | CTV News

I was pretty sure this was coming. Harper wouldn't be the first PM to back down from screwing with seniors benefits...


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> In new news, ABORT!!!
> 
> PMO backs away from proposed pension cuts | CTV News
> 
> I was pretty sure this was coming. Harper wouldn't be the first PM to back down from screwing with seniors benefits...


That was fast.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> ...Economists like Kevin Milligan make money by writing such articles... their intentions are highly suspect IMO... If they have solutions then publish those.... I suspect they don't have any solutions but writing such articles is an easy way to make a buck.


Based on this rational, it would seem all professionally written information, analysis and opinion is not to be relied upon.

So, only amateur written blogs have any validity? Is this the prevailing opinion?


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> That was fast.


True. This change of heart surprised me as well. :clap::clap:


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> True. This change of heart surprised me as well. :clap::clap:


Clearly, he must have thought I was going to sic Margaret Atwood on 'em....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Similarly, it seems that reducing the cost of OAS may not have the impact on the cost of Canada's aging population that is needed. Sounds a bit band-aidy.


The costs are calculated entirely within the program. It's the actuarial calculations that are more interesting. Even shifting eligibility over one year would have a lot more people paying in and a lot fewer collecting at any one time. CPP at one point was meant to last the average citizen about 5 years after retirement until their deaths. OAS came much later, but the system still needs to be re-balanced between contributors and those on the receiving end.


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing Harper likely has heard, of Atwood at least...


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Yes, it's a familiar tune.
> 
> In new news, ABORT!!!
> 
> PMO backs away from proposed pension cuts | CTV News
> 
> I was pretty sure this was coming. Harper wouldn't be the first PM to back down from screwing with seniors benefits...





Sonal said:


> That was fast.


Seems that Canadian Seniors view that issue a bit differently than Harpos Billionaire advisors.

Go figger!


----------



## MLeh

The real savings and benefits will be in the proposed changes to immigrant policies anyway. Pretty good politicking: slid it in under the radar while everyone was obsessing about their entitlements. It's a long game, people. If there are issues with not enough OAS for the seniors we already have, look for fewer parents and grandparents coming over as part of family reunification programs.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The costs are calculated entirely within the program. It's the actuarial calculations that are more interesting. Even shifting eligibility over one year would have a lot more people paying in and a lot fewer collecting at any one time. CPP at one point was meant to last the average citizen about 5 years after retirement until their deaths. OAS came much later, but the system still needs to be re-balanced between contributors and those on the receiving end.


The actuarial calculations would be interesting. 

The whole thing raises the question--if the calculations show that CPP is fine, why is OAS running into problems? Something wasn't structured right. 



MLeh said:


> The real savings and benefits will be in the proposed changes to immigrant policies anyway. Pretty good politicking: slid it in under the radar while everyone was obsessing about their entitlements. It's a long game, people. If there are issues with not enough OAS for the seniors we already have, look for fewer parents and grandparents coming over as part of family reunification programs.


Harper is good at politicking. 

I'm curious as to what this immigration change will look like. There's a hint in there that MLeh adeptly picked up on, and perhaps it's all the long game.


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing part of the cuts and belt tightening will never include major cuts to the golden pensions, the billion dollar G20 photo ops, 50 million spending sprees in tory ridings, the unprecedented patronage appointments, piggish corporate tax cuts that are to create jobs (but haven't, and likely won't anytime soon), but only the sort that screws over regular hard working Canadians.

Not much different than when cuts are made to an organization for efficiency sake, the cuts end up usually at the service level, and not at the upper end, where those in control disparately protect their cash cows.

This government, is no different.



Sonal said:


> Harper is good at politicking.


He is extremely, good at it.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I'm guessing part of the cuts and belt tightening will never include major cuts to the golden pensions, the billion dollar G20 photo ops, 50 million spending sprees in tory ridings, the unprecedented patronage appointments, piggish corporate tax cuts that are to create jobs (but haven't, and likely won't anytime soon), but only the sort that screws over regular hard working Canadians.


I don't fuss over these things. Ultimately, variations on these happen under every government. I may not like it but it seems inevitable. 

So I'd rather look at what each government is actually doing differently...


----------



## eMacMan

Hmmm King Harpo is good at politicking.

At the heart of politicking is; "tick" and todays ticks are engorged on taxpayer blood.

I favour giving our politicians exactly the same retirement plans as all other Canadians. That way if they want to mess they will also sacrifice themselves. The Platinum can be melted down and used to reduce the debt.


----------



## MLeh

I agree that there needs to be reform of the MPs pension plans. Too much hypocrisy from the former 'Reform' party. (Might even coin the word 'Harpocrisy' if I thought it would make the conservatives realize that the optics are bad enough that this life-long conservative is looking over her glasses at them ...)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The whole thing raises the question--if the calculations show that CPP is fine, why is OAS running into problems? Something wasn't structured right.


I believe it's unfunded--just paid out of revenue, whereas CPP is funded by contributions. However, the OAS entitlement itself spans a time period over which seniors are living significantly longer than when the program was announced.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> The actuarial calculations would be interesting.
> 
> The whole thing raises the question--if the calculations show that CPP is fine, why is OAS running into problems? Something wasn't structured right.
> 
> 
> 
> Harper is good at politicking.
> 
> I'm curious as to what this immigration change will look like. There's a hint in there that MLeh adeptly picked up on, and perhaps it's all the long game.


The CPP is a defined pension plan that is professionally managed.

Defined pension plans are based on earnings and on a formula that the inputs multiplied the years of participation and a factor of return. You are guaranteed an amount of money on a monthly payment basis for the rest of your life with other financial benefits.

Employees and employers contribute to the pool of money in the pension fund and then that pool of money is invested by professional investment analysts, paid for from the fund, to maximize the returns on those investments.

Currently the CPP is a very solvent publicly administered social policy strategy.

At one time on the income tax return form, showed an amount of money outlined in a special block to highlight the amount of taxes you contributed to OAS. That block was done away with but the contributions are still included in your taxes I believe.

OAS is a public pension that when compared to other countries' public pension schemes is very low cost. Canada's system of public pensions is a scheme that provides very good value versus public expense.


----------



## BigDL

This hardly sound like "backing down" OGL will not cut OAS "overnight" per his Minion of State for Finance Ted Menzies.


CBCNewsPNP said:


> In an interview with Rosemary Barton on the CBC News Network, Menzies says the government wants to make sure the system in place now can be sustained in the future.
> 
> "I don't think we'd change anything overnight," he said.
> 
> "We're looking at all options right now. We're looking at all options that make it sustainable."


 It still sounds like OGL is cutting the OAS in the near term rather than the long term, to me anyway. OGL has already made substantial changes to the timelines for payout of the CPP.

It hardly sounds like backing down from diminishing the value the OAS plan.

The front end of the post war baby boom (Boomers) began turning 65 last January.

Retirement income changes won't be sudden, government says - CBC News


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Based on this rational, it would seem all professionally written information, analysis and opinion is not to be relied upon.
> 
> So, only amateur written blogs have any validity? Is this the prevailing opinion?


To only an amateur logician would this make any sense.


----------



## screature

MLeh said:


> I agree that there needs to be reform of the MPs pension plans. Too much hypocrisy from the former 'Reform' party. (Might even coin the word 'Harpocrisy' if I thought it would make the conservatives realize that the optics are bad enough that this life-long conservative is looking over her glasses at them ...)


Harper was not a member of the Reform Party at the time of the aboutface of the vast majority of the Reformers... albeit only 2 members of any party have turned down their pension and they were both Reformers... at least that can be said.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> To only an amateur logician would this make any sense.





screature said:


> ....
> Economists like Kevin Milligan make money by writing such articles... their intentions are highly suspect IMO... If they have solutions then publish those.... I suspect they don't have any solutions but writing such articles is an easy way to make a buck.


This issue was raised by you. Then why raise the issue of receiving compensation for writing pieces to be printed in publication negates its validity? 

Is it merely the author's point of view that you find objectionable? 

Is the derision of compensation for writing the article, the only weak rebuttal that can be offered, to counter the ideas expressed in it?


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I don't fuss over these things. Ultimately, variations on these happen under every government. I may not like it but it seems inevitable.
> 
> So I'd rather look at what each government is actually doing differently...


I know. But we are, talking about a government that shouted from the rooftops about being the party of less spending, smaller government, and for the people. I realize either party is more than capable of spending like fools, but, given the level of the pontificating we've endured about this, it's amazing how people can buy any of this rhetoric at all.

And you're right. It is about priorities. At this point, no one can be really sure what the liberals stand for anymore. So this isn't, at least for now, about suggesting the liberals would be better.

It would be interesting should the ndp be smart and choose Paul Dewar as leader.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> This issue was raised by you. Then why raise the issue of receiving compensation for writing pieces to be printed in publication negates its validity?
> 
> Is it merely the author's point of view that you find objectionable?
> 
> Is the derision of compensation for writing the article, the only weak rebuttal that can be offered, to counter the ideas expressed in it?


You only quote the portion of my post that you chose to use to make an illogical argument...

In full I said:



> Economists like Kevin Milligan make money by writing such articles... their intentions are highly suspect IMO...* If they have solutions then publish those.... I suspect they don't have any solutions* but writing such articles is an easy way to make a buck.


That is why his intentions are suspect... surely an economist worth their salt would have solutions or at least proposed solutions not just critiques based on *incomplete* research. Even lowly politicians offer alternative solutions. Capiche? Or do you want to continue to further twist my words to suit your illogical statements?


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You only quotes the portion of my post that you chose to use to make an illogical argument...
> 
> In full I said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is why his intentions are suspect... surely an economist worth their salt would have solutions or at least proposed solutions not just critiques based on *incomplete* research. Even lowly politicians offer alternative solutions. Capiche? Or do you want to continue to further twist my words to suit your illogical statements?


You are aware Economists like Kevin Milligan, are not the government. Why would they provide solutions? 

The other issue is Mr. Milligan say there isn't a real crisis to be resolved. The government should be able to resolve the issue of 0.73 of GDP by 2035, all on there own, if the will was there to do so.

So thank you, it *is* the lack of any rebuttal that is really the issue.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> You are aware Economists like Kevin Milligan, are not the government. Why would they provide solutions?
> 
> The other issue is Mr. Milligan say there isn't a real crisis to be resolved. The government should be able to resolve the issue of 0.73 of GDP by 2035, all on there own, if the will was there to do so.
> 
> So thank you, it *is* the lack of any rebuttal that is really the issue.


You are aware that economists like Milligan can and do present alternatives for the government to consider all the time, they work for banks, universities, NGOs, provincial and federal government.

It *is* indeed their job to present alternatives to government fiscal policy.

He is but one economist and they often disagree as to the numbers due to different methodologies...

The other salient point in this whole discussion is that at this point in time the moving the age of OAS collection is pure speculation as is the means by which such a policy would be implemented.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You are aware that economists like Milligan can and do present alternatives for the government to consider all the time, they work for banks, universities, NGOs, provincial and federal government.
> 
> It *is* indeed their job to present alternatives to government fiscal policy.
> 
> He is but one economist and they often disagree as to the numbers due to different methodologies...
> 
> The other salient point in this whole discussion is that at this point in time the moving the age of OAS collection is pure speculation as is the means by which such a policy would be implemented.


Screature, you're missing the point of the article. Now, you've offered a few reasons why we should discredit the article, though nothing about the actual content. The fact that he got paid to write this, is really reaching. However, the government, has much to gain from creating a crisis, as you pointed out, saving billions and billions. It just so happens the Harper government is hunting for billions of dollars right now, so why not tell Canadians there's a crisis here?

And as for a solution, if this economist is saying there isn't the crisis here the government is suggesting, why should he offer a solution to a non-crisis?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Screature, you're missing the point of the article. Now, you've offered a few reasons why we should discredit the article, though nothing about the actual content. The fact that he got paid to write this, is really reaching. However, the government, has much to gain from creating a crisis, as you pointed out, saving billions and billions. It just so happens the Harper government is hunting for billions of dollars right now, so why not tell Canadians there's a crisis here?
> 
> And as for a solution, if this economist is saying there isn't the crisis here the government is suggesting, why should he offer a solution to a non-crisis?


There is an impending Old Age crisis it has been known for decades. It is demographics... cripes I knew about it in the 90s just Google it. The fact that he says there is no impending crisis is one of the reasons why his argument is suspect.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sure governments past ie Chretien gov looking for cuts also would have loved to find these billions.

I'd be interested in finding more information on this before simply taking the government's word for it. They, have much to gain from this "crisis".


----------



## screature

Kevin Page:



> Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page, who has been *urging Ottawa to plan for the demographic time bomb for some time*, noted in a report last week that Ottawa bought itself fiscal room by tying future health transfers to provinces to economic growth and inflation.
> 
> In an interview, Page said the government likely wants to create additional fiscal room to invest elsewhere, such as education, research and development and lower taxes to boost the economy's productivity.


----------



## screature

Here is an article that actually points to some policy options:

PM's pension reform could hurt vulnerable
Plan likely to provoke outcry, academic says



> Messing with public pensions is a minefield one would think most prime ministers would avoid if possible.
> 
> One only has to look at Brian Mulroney's experience in 1985 when public backlash forced him to retreat from a plan to de-index old age pensions from inflation.
> 
> But this week, Prime Minister Stephen Harper - attending the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland - indicated his government is deter-mined to reform Canada's pension system.
> 
> While he didn't say specifically what's in store, it's widely believed a main part of any pension reform would be to move eligibility for Old Age Security (OAS) up to the age of 67 from 65.
> 
> Opposition politicians have denounced this hypothetical move, saying it would hurt many low-income Canadians at one of the most vulnerable times of their lives.
> 
> But *James MacKinnon, an economics professor from Queen's University in Kingston, Ont., said such a policy could be relatively painless for most Canadians, if done right.
> 
> "Of simple changes you can make, this one is very attractive because ... it's a lot better to have to work in your mid-60s than it is to have to work in your 80s or 90s," he said.
> *
> The key difference between Harper's likely plan and what Mulroney attempted, MacKinnon pointed out, was the latter would have affected all OAS recipients - present and future.
> 
> *"You could cut everybody's Old Age Security, whether they're 66 or 95. That's a way of saving money. But I think people would think that's both not very fair and not very efficient," he said. "The 95-year-old can't very easily go back to work to supplement a pension that's been cut. . . . It's certainly a lot easier, in general, for someone who is 66 to work than some-one who is 86 to work."*
> 
> However, Tyler Meredith, research director of aging issues for the Montreal-based Institute for Research on Public Policy, said pushing old age pension eligibility up by two years could be problematic.
> 
> "If it is going to be a broad, across-the-board increase in the eligibility for OAS, then that will have some significant consequences for low-and modest-income individuals," Meredith said. *He said he's not opposed to the general idea of adapting social-retirement programs to the realities of an aging population, and the fact people work longer than in the past. But Meredith said policy changes should be flexible for people whose financial means and physical ability to work are more limited.*
> 
> Tina Di Vito, head of the BMO Retirement Institute, agreed that low-income seniors would be hurt most by moving up the OAS eligibility age. She added that it could also affect plans of middle-income people who were planning a move to a partial retirement at the age of 65, assuming they would get some money from OAS.
> 
> "They're going to have to think twice about their ability, or the affordability, of working part-time instead of working full-time," she said.
> 
> The logic behind reforming Canada's pension system is that as more and more baby boomers age and retire, the ratio of working people paying money into OAS compared to people receiving it is slated to be significantly skewed toward the latter group.
> 
> Government documents indicate the cost of OAS could triple to $108 billion by 2030 from $36.5 billion in 2010, during which time the number of seniors will climb to 9.3 million from the current 4.7 million.
> 
> Even as Harper made his case for "major transformations" that would include the public pension system, he made of point of saying the Canada Pension Plan (CPP) is not a target.
> 
> Old Age Security is funded directly from government revenues, while CPP is a separate fund that Canadians and their employers pay directly into during the course of their working lives. The independent Canada Pension Plan Investment Board is tasked with actively investing this money so that it grows well beyond the value of its contributions.
> 
> The maximum basic amount paid out monthly by Old Age Security is $540.12. Parts of that can be clawed back for those whose annual net income is more than $66,335. For those at the low end of the economic scale, the Guaranteed Income Supplement and other allowances can boost the over-all benefit.
> 
> *While it's still speculation at this point, MacKinnon said the government would likely retain measures to help out the most cash-strapped seniors. He also said it's likely that any change in OAS eligibility would be brought in over time.
> 
> MacKinnon pointed to the U.S. model as something that the Canadian government could follow.
> 
> In 1983, the U.S. changed its Social Security system so the age for retirement benefits was pushed from 65 to 67 over several years. Currently, the standard age for retirement is 66. People born in 1937 were the last group to receive full benefits at the age of 65, with the date moved up by months at a time for people born in subsequent years. It's been pushed back to 67 for people born in 1957 or later.*
> 
> Moves to alter pension systems in Europe have resulted in public wrath. Millions of people demonstrated in France more than a year ago in protest of the move to raise the standard retirement age to 62 from 60.
> 
> *No matter how fair and gentle the government tries to be in reducing the overall cost of supporting retired people, it will take some heat from the public, MacKinnon predicted.*
> 
> "Not everyone's going to be happy with it," he said. "I can't imagine that people are going to welcome it with open arms."


One way or another moving ahead with a plan to change OAS is going to be a problematic issue for the government... there could be so much out cry that other measures will have to be taken instead, but the "demographic time bomb" has to be addressed sooner than later and hopefully sooner.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Kevin Page:


he seems to be referring to health care.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> he seems to be referring to health care.


He is a addressing the "demographic time bomb", health care is definitely a big, very big part of the equation... I was quoting him to show you that it is well understood that there is an impending Old Age crisis.

Health care will be the most contentious component to address because it crosses jurisdictional boundaries... OAS is jurisdictionally easy because it is solely the responsibility of the Feds. Thus most likely why they are openly willing to look at it now...

My suspicion is that there will be some public bartering going on... the feds will present a worst case scenario so that they can back away from that and still get some cuts that the public will view as being more palatable... time will tell.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> He is a addressing the "demographic time bomb", health care is definitely a big, very big part of the equation... I was quoting him to show you that it is well understood that their is an impending Old Age crisis.
> 
> Health care will be the most contentious component to address because it crosses jurisdictional boundaries... OAS is jurisdictionally easy because it is solely the responsibility of the Feds. Thus most likely why they are openly willing to look at it now...
> 
> My suspicion is that there will be some public bartering going on... the feds will present a worst case scenario so that they can back away from that and still get some cuts that the public will view as being more palatable... time will tell.


Yes he is, healthcare, NOT OAS, which is what I, and others have been saying. I also noted that in the other article you quoted, nowhere does it say there is a crisis looming with OAS, just that it will become more expensive. And, the last time I checked seniors do in fact pay taxes, certainly on the rrsps many have and are cashing out. My dad just last week complained about the huge amount lopped off his recent rrsp. (he's retired).


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yes he is, healthcare, NOT OAS, which is what I, and others have been saying. I also noted that in the other article you quoted, nowhere does it say there is a crisis looming with OAS, just that it will become more expensive. And, the last time I checked seniors do in fact pay taxes, certainly on the rrsps many have and are cashing out. My dad just last week complained about the huge amount lopped off his recent rrsp. (he's retired).



What's the *yes he is* about?

OAS is part of the overall picture, it is a component of the OAC (old age crisis), it is the low hanging fruit for reasons already stated.... I don't think anyone said OAS was in crisis but is part of an overarching problem and needs to be addressed to maintain its viability going forward. "Crisis" seems to be a term being thrown around by the article you posted to, there *is *an impending OAC however.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> he seems to be referring to health care.


Hey groove to defuse a demographic time bomb all you need is a well placed anecdote to discredit any suggested facts.

I was born in the early 1950's and all my contemporaries are dropping like flies. I have had 6 friends that I knew back in the day or currently die in last 2 months.

At this rate few boomers will be around by 2035. By 2035, boomers in their 80's to 90's, still six feet up, puffft, what's the chances of that.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Hey groove to defuse a demographic time bomb all you need is a well placed anecdote to discredit any suggested facts.
> 
> I was born in the early 1950's and all my contemporaries are dropping like flies. I have had 6 friends that I knew back in the day or currently die in last 2 months.
> 
> At this rate few boomers will be around by 2035. By 2035, boomers in their 80's to 90's, still six feet up, puffft, what's the chances of that.


You have some pretty sickly contemporaries... Have you read anything about the OAC I mean really, anything at all, other than the Milligan article?

The number of Canadians over the age of 65 will increase from 4.7 million to 9.3 million over the next 20 years. Meanwhile, by 2030, the number of taxpayers for every senior will be 2 – down from 4 in 2010. 

It is just basic math, but no nothing to be concerned with, nothing at all...


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Yes he is, healthcare, NOT OAS, which is what I, and others have been saying. I also noted that in the other article you quoted, nowhere does it say there is a crisis looming with OAS, just that it will become more expensive. And, the last time I checked seniors do in fact pay taxes, certainly on the rrsps many have and are cashing out. My dad just last week complained about the huge amount lopped off his recent rrsp. (he's retired).


My in-laws ended up paying higher tax rates on their RRSPs during their working years.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> ...certainly on the rrsps many have and are cashing out. *My dad just last week complained about the huge amount lopped off his recent rrsp. (he's retired).*






eMacMan said:


> My in-laws ended up paying higher tax rates on their RRSPs during their working years.


Duh no kidding that is what an RRSP (properly RIF by the time you actually start drawing from it) is all about. 

You contribute during your years of highest earning for a tax deferral to a period when you will be earning less i.e. retirement and so end up paying less tax when you draw money from your RIF because you are in a lower income bracket.

Groove your Dad isn't using the instrument the way it was meant to be used or he is making more money in retirement than he was when he was working.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> My in-laws ended up paying higher tax rates on their RRSPs during their working years.


Yeah, I noticed in another Harper memo *cough* news article suggesting that seniors aren't contributing anymore to tax revenue I had to laugh. With more and more seniors having saved rrsps retiring that is becoming less and less the case.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> What's the *yes he is* about?
> 
> OAS is part of the overall picture, it is a component of the OAC (old age crisis), it is the low hanging fruit for reasons already stated.... I don't think anyone said OAS was in crisis but is part of an overarching problem and needs to be addressed to maintain its viability going forward. "Crisis" seems to be a term being thrown around by the article you posted to, there *is *an impending OAC however.


in regards to the "He is a addressing the "demographic time bomb".

But I see no mention of OAS. So I'm not sure why you quoted him. Does he talk about OAS somewhere else? Did I miss something?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Duh no kidding that is what an RRSP (properly RIF by the time you actually start drawing from it) is all about.
> 
> You contribute during your years of highest earning for a tax deferral to a period when you will be earning less i.e. retirement and so end up paying less tax when you draw money from your RIF because you are in a lower income bracket.


I think the point here, is that seniors will be in fact contributing to tax revenue.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think the point here, is that seniors will be in fact contributing to tax revenue.


Largely on money previously earned the taxes were deferred and those taxes are substantially less than those paid by working people... read up on it if you don't believe me...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> in regards to the "He is a addressing the "demographic time bomb".
> 
> But I see no mention of OAS. So I'm not sure why you quoted him. Does he talk about OAS somewhere else? *Did I miss something?*


Yes. It is a big picture scenario here as I keep saying. Page says "Ottawa *bought itself fiscal room* by tying future health transfers to provinces to economic growth and inflation." but in relation to the OAC.

I wasn't saying he was talking about OAS...

You seemed to question whether such a thing even existed I was pointing you to that it is a well known fact. It is multifaceted problem, Healthcare, Social Security, less people working to support a burgeoning senior demographic etc...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You have some pretty sickly contemporaries... Have you read anything about the OAC I mean really, anything at all, other than the Milligan article?


The union has some bulletins about it...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Largely on money previously earned the taxes were deferred and those taxes are substantially less than those paid by working people... read up on it if you don't believe me...


not according to my dad lol. 

Anyway, we could go around in circles by me saying one -could- take that money and find other ways to shelter it from taxes altogether (if you're smart) and deny the government any of those tax revenues all together. But at the end of the day, the government will still, be receiving tax revenues at a time when that senior is retired, as opposed to the picture painted saying those seniors tax revenues completely dry up at that time, which is FALSE.

I still haven't much on this impending OAS impending doom, beyond it's going to cost more for a period. But I'm sure the government, would love to get a hold of those billions...

Aren't we due for a daily macfury driveby? Oh, there we go...

Anyway, I have no more information on this to go further.

next! C'mon jimbo, do your thing.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *not according to my dad* lol.
> 
> Anyway, we could go around in circles by me saying one -could- take that money and find other ways to shelter it from taxes altogether (if you're smart) and deny the government any of those tax revenues all together. But at the end of the day, the government will still, be receiving tax revenues at a time when that senior is retired, *as opposed to the picture painted saying those seniors tax revenues completely dry up at that time,* which is FALSE.
> 
> I still haven't much on this impending OAS impending doom, beyond it's going to cost more for a period. But I'm sure the government, would love to get a hold of those billions...
> 
> Aren't we due for a daily macfury driveby? Oh, there we go...
> 
> Anyway, I have no more information on this to go further.
> 
> next! C'mon jimbo, do your thing.


You missed where I said:



> Groove your Dad isn't using the instrument the way it was meant to be used or he is making more money in retirement than he was when he was working.


No one said this...


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You have some pretty sickly contemporaries... Have you read anything about the OAC I mean really, anything at all, other than the Milligan article?
> 
> The number of Canadians over the age of 65 will increase from 4.7 million to 9.3 million over the next 20 years. Meanwhile, by 2030, the number of taxpayers for every senior will be 2 – down from 4 in 2010.
> 
> It is just basic math, but no nothing to be concerned with, nothing at all...


Now you know you are not repeating facts don't you?

What is being repeated is actuarial projections.

The pension plan I belong to has had a better experience rating greater than the actuarial projections would have led us to understand. To put it another way, more fellow workers actually died, (some of these deaths were boomers as well) than were projected to die. The pension plan is much better shape because they prepared for the worst and hoped for the best. What is the best for the group is not necessarily the best for the individual. 

Regardless of the reality, the plan members did not have the threat of benefits taken away from them at the outset the plan took necessary actions to provide for its members, because there was a will to do so. In the end even with downturns the plan is solid shape. 

The demographic bulge fear mongering to raise fears, in order, to stampede the herd off the cliff into doing what the conservatives want to do anyway.

So we shall go back to the points raised by Mr. Milligan's, thesis, the thesis is not attack Mr. Milligan the individual and his motives are attacked.

When that strategy failed, let's tot out the boggy man of the boomer bulge to distract us from reality. The reality is OGL, his Minions and his supporters do not like social benefits, especially ones like the CPP that actually work as advertised. So let's attack the OAS whether it needs attacking or not.


----------



## screature

Harper sees what we must do
Ottawa Citizen



> ...The general problem of funding "entitlements" - and in our case especially an Old Age Security program which is the loss-leader among government services (funded directly out of tax revenues) - is shared by every other western nation. The political fix is also the same everywhere. Programs that no country could ever afford were launched in an era of unreasonable optimism. But only the first generation could be paid off handsomely for their votes.
> 
> *Our "next" generation contains vastly more elderly people, and at this moment costs for the OAS are on track to double in the next decade or so. There is no national economy in the developed world that can keep up with that. And at present, none that can afford a heavier tax burden, which would compound upon an ever-smaller proportion of working-age people.*
> 
> In the last drying wharks of the optimist generation, "immigration" was cited as the solution to this problem. The doors were thrown open - without much attention to the quality of immigrants, from a mean, self-serving, cost-benefit point-of-view. Suddenly we, like everyone else, want to be sure our immigrants are more likely to generate wealth than absorb welfare. So, suddenly we are competing for the same kind of immigrants with everyone else.
> 
> *Harper will be condemned, even execrated, for what he must do, and what any government must do, in the national interest. For as we have seen from Greece, balancing the books is in the national interest.
> 
> I think everybody who knows anything, knows what I have written above, though not everyone will admit to knowing. Soft love is easier than hard, and the easiest thing is compassionate posturing. We elected Harper because we, the people, do not think like Wall Street occupiers. But the people who stand to receive OAS have no intention of being cut off, either.
> 
> The only practical solution, beyond nipping and tucking wherever possible, is to move the age of retirement sharply higher, while gradually shifting the actuarial principles to within sight of land. This makes sense, given a population not only aging, but living longer in relatively good health. Yes, one generation benefited at the expense of another, but so what? We'll live...*


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Now you know you are not repeating facts don't you?
> 
> What is being repeated is actuarial projections.
> 
> The pension plan I belong to has had a better experience rating greater than the actuarial projections would have led us to understand. To put it another way, more fellow workers actually died, (some of these deaths were boomers as well) than were projected to die. The pension plan is much better shape because they prepared for the worst and hoped for the best. What is the best for the group is not necessarily the best for the individual.
> 
> Regardless of the reality, the plan members did not have the threat of benefits taken away from them at the outset the plan took necessary actions to provide for its members, because there was a will to do so. In the end even with downturns the plan is solid shape.
> 
> *The demographic bulge fear mongering to raise fears*, in order, to stampede the herd off the cliff into doing what the conservatives want to do anyway.
> 
> So we shall go back to the points raised by Mr. Milligan's, thesis, the thesis is not attack Mr. Milligan the individual and his motives are attacked.
> 
> When that strategy failed, let's tot out the *boggy man of the boomer bulge to distract us from reality*. The reality is OGL, his Minions and his supporters do not like social benefits, especially ones like the CPP that actually work as advertised. So let's attack the OAS whether it needs attacking or not.


You really have no idea... the demographic "bulge" is real and why it is being dealt with by nations around the world and why Kevin Page has been advocating for the government to do something about it... 

But by all means keep your head firmly planted 6 feet under, where the rest of your body will most likely be in 2030 (according to your own estimates) cause you aren't going to be around to have to worry about it.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You really have no idea... the demographic "bulge" is real and why it is being dealt with by nations around the world and why Kevin Page has been advocating for the government to do something about it...
> 
> But by all means keep your head firmly planted 6 feet under, where the rest of your body will most likely be in 2030 (according to your own estimates) cause you aren't going to be around to have to worry about it.


Out of curiosity, did Kevin Page say that we need to deal with OAS?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Groove your Dad isn't using the instrument the way it was meant to be used or he is making more money in retirement than he was when he was working.


That's not true, and he doesn't make more money in retirement at all. A lot less actually.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Harper sees what we must do
> Ottawa Citizen


reading the rest of that article, it practically reads like a right wing manifesto. First it starts with vague references to some impending doom, without any facts or figures, and then goes on to attack the democrats in the US, you have to be kidding me if you think this author has anymore credibility than the economist I linked to.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You really have no idea... the demographic "bulge" is real and why it is being dealt with by nations around the world and why Kevin Page has been advocating for the government to do something about it...
> 
> But by all means keep your head firmly planted 6 feet under, where the rest of your body will most likely be in 2030 (according to your own estimates) cause you aren't going to be around to have to worry about it.


I assure you I am doing my part to add to that "bulge." Pun fully intended.

Now the actuarial projection you quote is the upper limit of the numbers projected. On the flip side there is another part of the same actuarial projection say everyone dies instead of living. That number isn't, so scary so those talking points aren't, in OGL's repertoire because it does not feed into his agenda to dismantle social benefits.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That's not true, and he doesn't make more money in retirement at all. A lot less actually.


Well then he should be paying less tax on the money he withdraws from his RIF than he would have when he was working and withdrawing it from his RRSP. 

He may be surprised by how much tax he is paying perhaps because his tax bracket has not moved down that much but plain and simple that is the premise that RSSPs/RIFs are built on and you can't blame the Cons for that no matter how much you may want to...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> reading the rest of that article, it practically reads like a right wing manifesto. First it starts with vague references to some impending doom, without any facts or figures, and then goes on to attack the democrats in the US,* you have to be kidding me if you think this author has anymore credibility than the economist I linked to*.


Didn't imply he did, just another take... TBT I don't know much about the guy as I doubt you do about Milligan...

You link to stories that support your point of view.... as far as I am concerned it is fair game... that being said you will never see me link to an article by Ezra Levant...

I will give you this, despite your right wing manifesto barb which could equally be applied to many left wing articles linked to here, in the rest of his article he does come off a little too cheer leading for my liking. But it was an easy find from National News Watch which is jimbo's favourite source of articles...

Just for balance don't cha know....


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Didn't imply he did, just another take... TBT I don't know much about the guy as I doubt you do about Milligan...
> 
> You link to stories that support your point of view.... as far as I am concerned it is fair game... that being said you will never see me link to an article by Ezra Levant...
> 
> I will give you this, despite your right wing manifesto barb which could equally be applied to many left wing articles linked to here, in the rest of his article he does come off a little too cheer leading for my liking. But it was an easy find from National News Watch which is jimbo's favourite source of articles...
> 
> Just for balance don't cha know....


The article I linked to, didn't necessarily support -my- opinion at all. It's just one of the few I've seen actually get to the nitty gritty without broad vague references to, "we gotta do something, oh my god, we're doomed' sort of stuff. I'm happy to read other points of view if they get a little deeper beyond "it's gonna cost more". Oh really...

That, and the right turn into criticizing Obama for making some cuts to the already MASSIVE defence budget. There's a clue right there... cheerleading indeed.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> The article I linked to, didn't necessarily support -my- opinion at all. *It's just one of the few I've seen actually get to the nitty gritty* without broad vague references to, "*we gotta do something, oh my god, we're doomed' sort of stuff.* I'm happy to read other points of view if they get a little deeper beyond "it's gonna cost more". Oh really...
> 
> That, and the right turn into criticizing Obama for making some cuts to the already MASSIVE defence budget. There's a clue right there... *cheerleading indeed*.


Read a little more then.... outside of the popular headlines...

That sorta stuff is in, well, shall we say Milligan's imagination as nothing of the sort has been said thus far.

Do you really have to repeat what has already been admitted to by someone else (me) with added hyperbole... ? Does it add to your position? I am really not clear on the motivation when your point has already been acknowledged?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Read a little more then.... outside of the popular headlines...
> 
> That sorta stuff is in, well, shall we say Milligan's imagination as nothing of the sort has been said thus far.
> 
> Do you really have to repeat what has already been admitted to by someone else (me) with added hyperbole... ? Does it add to your position? I am really not clear on the motivation when your point has already been acknowledged?


I'm addressing your constant discrediting without addressing the real subject matter. You haven't really given much to truly discredit his opinion as 'his imagination' really at all.

The author got paid, it's well known he's wrong, quotes from Kevin Page that didn't even address OAS, only some apparently implied reference... etc etc.

As I've said, I need more info. I thought the article I posted provided a more detailed opinion, which hasn't been refuted beyond, "he's been paid and it's well known etc._ as of yet._

I'd like some better, more detailed info beyond the fluff of broad based propaganda style news articles to decide what my position will be. I haven't said yet that I think he is 100% correct.

I hope this clarifies this enough to hopefully slow the back and forthing on this for now.


----------



## BigDL

groove it's all about repeating the Conservative talking points long enough. The hard part is getting the heard spooked.

The easy part is directing them over the buffalo jump once you got them moving.

Just repeat the big lie long enough it's got to be true, no proof required.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> groove it's all about repeating the Conservative talking points long enough. The hard part is getting the heard spooked.
> 
> The easy part is directing them over the buffalo jump once you got them moving.
> 
> Just repeat the big lie long enough it's got to be true, no proof required.


Do your always need to tag onto a discussion with your facetious drivel... 

I think groove is already on your side, you don't need to "court" him any more... unless there is something romantic going on, then if that is the case continue by all means... Don't want to get in the way of a budding romance.


----------



## groovetube

ok, let's not let this thread go there k?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> ok, let's not let this thread go there k?


It was a joke... seems it is only funny when you are on the delivering end eh?....


----------



## groovetube

k I'm outta here for now. Later.


----------



## i-rui

i'm just happy to see a con supporter giving this much credence to something kevin page wrote.

now if only the cons would listen to him when he says what the bloated cost would be for the f-35s or the omnibus crime bill....


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i'm just happy to see a con supporter giving this much credence to something kevin page wrote.
> 
> now if only the cons would listen to him when he says what the bloated cost would be for the f-35s or the omnibus crime bill....


Pick and choose your subject of focus... it is a common political predicament regardless of inclination...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> k I'm outta here for now. Later.


Good on ya groove, I should have been out earlier... let cooler heads prevail...

Peace out.


----------



## eMacMan

*Bad ACTA*

Will be interesting to see how OGLs apologists justify King Harpo signing this back in 2010. That was a few months before BO signed on.

What Is ACTA ? - YouTube!


----------



## i-rui

canadians should worry about our very own proposed c-11 bill to crack down on the internet :

Michael Geist - The Behind-the-Scenes Campaign To Bring SOPA To Canada

Canadian Coalition for Electronic Rights » Bill C-11


----------



## eMacMan

Now Jason Kenney is more or less the Cons go to guy for Moronic rhetoric.

Which probably explains why he is now pimping the idea that all immigrants should speak English or French. Kind of a typical knee jerk red neck reaction to immigration issues.

Got me to thinking that between the early 1900s and the 1960s over 50 different languages were spoken in the various mining communities along the Crowsnest corridor. While it was a source a friction, the residents did learn to communicate with each other. I am firmly convinced that all of these communities benefited from that diversity and equally convinced those benefits continue to this day.

BTW while I have only minor difficulty deciphering the French, German, Italian or Chinese versions of English, the Scottish burr continues to baffle me. Ironically it is those same Scots who would be declared proficient in English.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER and CON Corruption documented*

404 Project 3C: Documenting Conservative Corruption | 404 System Error

Here's a great list of Harper and CON wrong doings to refer to. It will be interesting to see how large this gets by 2015.

Make sure you bookmark this site for more fun and games.

Brought to you by JNN - "Sorry about no posts over the weekend. My Uncle turned 102"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Here's a beauty - CONS subsidize private corps with development aid moola*

CIDA funds seen to be subsidizing mining firms - The Globe and Mail

Yeah who cares about drinking water, food, shelter when we can be drillin' or dealing in blood diamonds.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, it'll get worse before it gets better"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Allegations Harper always wanted to sell TARSANDS pipe to commies*

Matt Price: A Pipeline to China Was Always Harper's Scheme

Brought to you by JNN - "to think that over 1/3 of voters gave this idiot power - well chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER - A Hole*

Maher: Tories have put Canadians in a hole

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, I have so many more to post I'll have to hold back"


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> 404 Project 3C: Documenting Conservative Corruption | 404 System Error
> 
> Here's a great list of Harper and CON wrong doings to refer to. It will be interesting to see how large this gets by 2015.
> 
> Make sure you bookmark this site for more fun and games.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "*Sorry about no posts over the weekend*. My Uncle turned 102"


No apologies necessary there was actually interesting discussion for a change with your absence... wonder why that was? Happy birthday to your uncle.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> I have so many more to post I'll have to hold back


Just post a link to the news aggregator and people can get all of them. There's no trick to it.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Just post a link to the news aggregator and people can get all of them. There's no trick to it.


There is no self glorification involved in that... thus far every link he has posted to is old news to me... as if almost always the case and why JNN is just so boring.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> every link he has posted to is old news to me.


Thanks for that very important contribution to the discussion. It's great to know how far ahead of the curve you are. Talking about 'self glorification' 

Meanwhile, back on the topic of Canadian Politics (rather than the relentless Screature-MF-whine-about-JNN), it appears that OGL is enjoying his tax-payer-financed trip to lecture the leaders of the EU on how to run their economy. But he's not drawing much attention to the facts that his government's policies of corporate tax cuts and increased military spending have generated a $30 billion deficit (from the $13.8 billion surplus they inherited), and have increased our national debt by over $100 billion.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Thanks for that very important contribution to the discussion. It's great to know how far ahead of the curve you are. Talking about 'self glorification'
> 
> Meanwhile, back on the topic of Canadian Politics (rather than the relentless Screature-MF-whine-about-JNN), it appears that OGL is enjoying his tax-payer-financed trip to lecture the leaders of the EU on how to run their economy. But he's not drawing much attention to the facts that his government's policies of corporate tax cuts and increased military spending have generated a $30 billion deficit (from the $13.8 billion surplus they inherited), and have increased our national debt by over $100 billion.


Well, we need to find a way to pay for those incredibly important corporate tax cuts and military hardware, hmmm. I donno... cut seniors benefits! Look over yonder! There's a crisis there!


----------



## BigDL

Interesting discussion? There is a bulge in Canada, no facts required to prove it's a crisis, is now being passed off as interesting discussion.

JNN is interesting posting imo. In another's opinion not so much and still others "JNN keeps showing me something I don't want to see!" "...and he won't stop... mom dad... do something!"

I'm glad to see the more things change, the more things stay the same, in this thread. :clap:


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Thanks for that very important contribution to the discussion. It's great to know how far ahead of the curve you are. Talking about 'self glorification'
> 
> Meanwhile, back on the topic of Canadian Politics (rather than the relentless Screature-MF-whine-about-JNN), it appears that OGL is enjoying his tax-payer-financed trip to lecture the leaders of the EU on how to run their economy. But he's not drawing much attention to the facts that his government's policies of corporate tax cuts and increased military spending have generated a $30 billion deficit (from the $13.8 billion surplus they inherited), and have increased our national debt by over $100 billion.


Hardly self glorification... just a fact it, is part of what I do... I also never felt there was any glory in being informed about the world of politics... Some here do however it seems.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Interesting discussion? There is a bulge in Canada, no facts required to prove it's a crisis, is now being passed off as interesting discussion.
> 
> JNN is interesting posting imo. In another's opinion not so much and still others "JNN keeps showing me something I don't want to see!" "...and he won't stop... mom dad... do something!"
> 
> I'm glad to see the more things change, the more things stay the same, in this thread. :clap:


No one said it was a crisis except those in the media and the opposition putting words in peoples mouths... It is what they do best don't cha know.

And the discussion sure beat the hell out of no discussion... which is typical when JNN is on a link posting tear. But your right to a degree though your head in the sand contribution was not in the least bit interesting.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Thanks for that very important contribution to the discussion. It's great to know how far ahead of the curve you are. Talking about 'self glorification'
> 
> Meanwhile, back on the topic of Canadian Politics (rather than the relentless Screature-MF-whine-about-JNN), it appears that OGL is enjoying his tax-payer-financed trip to lecture the leaders of the EU on how to run their economy. *But he's not drawing much attention to the facts that his government's policies of corporate tax cuts and increased military spending have generated a $30 billion deficit (from the $13.8 billion surplus they inherited), and have increased our national debt by over $100 billion.*


Your numbers are BS... corporate tax cuts and spending on jets have not even come into effect yet and in no way factor into the debt... And your other numbers are well, meaningless without the reasons for them... all to easy to spout them without also saying that the surplus was built on the backs of tax payers and deficit was incurred to thwart or minimize the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression... but keep right on... it seems you really do need the assistance of some news aggregator... too bad it is only JNN.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Your numbers are BS... corporate tax cuts and spending on jets have not even come into effect yet and in no way factor into the debt... And your other numbers are well, meaningless without the reasons for them... all to easy to spout them without also saying that the surplus was built on the backs of tax payers and debt was incurred to thwart or minimize the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression... but keep right on... it seems you really do need the assistance of some news aggregator... too bad it is only JNN.


I love the glee over a "surplus." Definition: We took more money than we needed and didn't give it back.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - Let's privatize prisons and make them more efficient and take on new prisoners*

Lobbyists Behind Omnibus Crime Bill Aimed at Privatizing Prisons | 404 System Error

Who's letting the dogs in?

brought to you by JNN - "helping to expose CON mythology chit".


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON economy: - TARSAND pipe dependence*

Economy unexpectedly shrank in November - Business - CBC News

Stick that in your pipe and eat it!

Brought to you by JNN - "chit my uncle used to smoke a pipe".


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I love the glee over a "surplus." Definition: We took more money than we needed and didn't give it back.


Surplus - Definition: we can pay down our debt without raising taxes.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Surplus - Definition: we can pay down our debt without raising taxes.



No: We are paying down our debt because we raised taxes.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Economy unexpectedly shrank in November - Business - CBC News
> 
> Stick that in your pipe and eat it!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit my uncle used to smoke a pipe".


Gotta love OGL's plan to have the Canadian economy and government become and remain a Petrocracy. Albeit a Petrocracy held in private hands. 

The private sector can grease the wheels for "retirement" for "certain leaders."


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Your numbers are BS... corporate tax cuts and spending on jets have not even come into effect yet and in no way factor into the debt... .


the latest round of corporate tax cuts (now down to 15%) took effect jan 1st, and they have been an ongoing endeavour under Harper. When he took office they were at 21%, and have dropped since then. Every 1% drop means a loss of $2 billion in annual tax revenue. So you are incorrect when you say they haven't taken effect yet and don't factor in the country's debt.

You're right about the proposed f-35 purchase, but a better question to ask is how much more will our debt be if that outrageous deal actually goes through?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the latest round of corporate tax cuts (now down to 15%) took effect jan 1st, and they have been an ongoing endeavour under Harper. When he took office they were at 21%, and have dropped since then. *Every 1% drop means a loss of $2 billion in tax revenue. So you are incorrect when you say they haven't taken effect yet and don't factor in the country's debt.*
> 
> You're right about the proposed f-35 purchase, but a better question to ask is how much more will our debt be if that outrageous deal actually goes through?


Proof of number please, and 30 days has had no effect on the debt in accounting thus far.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Proof of number please,


What did Corporate Tax Cuts Deliver? | Canadian Labour Congress



screature said:


> and 30 days has had no effect on the debt in accounting thus far.


i agree that the latest jan 1st cuts won't be accounted for, but the cuts from 21% down to 16.5% since Harper has been in office most definitely *DO* have a *huge* impact on our national debt.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> What did Corporate Tax Cuts Deliver? | Canadian Labour Congress
> 
> 
> 
> i agree that the latest jan 1st cuts won't be accounted for, but the cuts from 21% down to 16.5% since Harper has been in office most definitely *DO* have a *huge* impact in our national debt.


Well it is a link to the CLC but still no proof of numbers as I find them highly suspect source as it is in their interest to be less than fulsome in their accounting methods on this subject.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - attack on transgendered civil liberties - What's next?*

chrismilloy.ca » Transgender People are Completely Banned From Boarding Airplanes in Canada

Disgusting!

Brought to you by JNN - "unreal first same sex marriages, now this, what's next chit?"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Link to petition telling Harper to back off the transgendered*

Please consider signing this petition.

Tell Harper to allow trans people to fly on airplanes - Petition Online Canada


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> What did Corporate Tax Cuts Deliver? | Canadian Labour Congress
> 
> 
> 
> i agree that the latest jan 1st cuts won't be accounted for, but the cuts from 21% down to 16.5% since Harper has been in office most definitely *DO* have a *huge* impact on our national debt.


I thought this number(s) were already discussed at the time where this issue was hotly debated. Does anyone really truly think this kind of a tax cut, isn't going to affect government revenues and it's ability to manage the debt?

That's someone I wouldn't want managing -my- household finances that's for sure.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> ...the cuts from 21% down to 16.5% since Harper has been in office most definitely *DO* have a *huge* impact on our national debt.


These aren't simple mathematical formulae. A tax cut does not automatically result in a loss of revenue. In the same way, a tax increase can cause drop in revenue as investment flees the country.


----------



## groovetube

I for one would be quite interested in hearing a full explanation on that one. I'm guessing it'll include some references to drastically larger revenues and job creation as a result of granting these tax cuts.

I think we've heard this crock and bull story before.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> These aren't simple mathematical formulae. A tax cut does not automatically result in a loss of revenue.


So where's the economic activity that counterbalances the corporate tax cuts?

It's your thesis so cough up something better than a hairball idea. That is if you want anybody to believe your contention. 

Is the goal here the usual conservative supporter trick, to justify questionable economic paths, based on ideology with a hardy "IT COULD HAPPEN!" 

Say it long enough and say hard enough it must be a fact no proof required.


----------



## groovetube

This just in, breaking. Giving the corporations the ability to fatten huge exec bonuses will ensure more execs running around showering the less fortunate with some trinkets.

I think there was a trickle down graphic somewhere but it may not be allowed here.


----------



## i-rui

CBC just aired a quote by the Parliamentary Budget Officer saying that OAS is indeed sustainable under the current system. While the baby boomers will be retiring the majority of them are richer than previous generations, and most will actually not be taking dollars from the OAS.

So for the theory that OAS is somehow in trouble, the PBO should not be quoted to be in support of it.


----------



## groovetube

is there where suddenly Kevin page is a hack and not to be quoted anymore?


----------



## i-rui

i'm sure that will be the official party line.

IMO Kevin Page is probably the only person in ottawa who's words i actually trust. He seems to be the epitome of integrity.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i'm sure that will be the official party line.
> 
> IMO Kevin Page is probably the only person in ottawa who's words i actually trust. He seems to be the epitome of integrity.



The PBO is pretty straight shooting--although they can also be wrong. However, why did they issue a statement on OAS, since it won't be touched?


----------



## BigDL

I'm sure the OSA trial balloon launch and OGL has seen where this story is heading and the Conservative talking points aren't soothing very many. OGL's minions aren't letting very much slip with regards to the Conservative's plan.

OGL's goal maybe exploring the intergenerational divide and the possibility of a wedge issue between boomers and all other generations. 

The upcoming budget may be very interesting indeed.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The PBO is pretty straight shooting--although they can also be wrong. However, why did they issue a statement on OAS, since it won't be touched?


the CBC (power & politics to be specific) asked for clarification on if OAS was sustainable.

As for OAS not being touched.... the government hasn't said one way or another what they plan to do. there has been hints that the age will be raised from 65 to 67....which would definitely fall under "being touched".


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the CBC (power & politics to be specific) asked for clarification on if OAS was sustainable.
> 
> As for OAS not being touched.... the government hasn't said one way or another what they plan to do. there has been hints that the age will be raised from 65 to 67....which would definitely fall under "being touched".


Exactly--though I think it should be raised to 67, in monthly increments, given the huge extension in lifespan.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Exactly--though I think it should be raised to 67, in monthly increments, given the huge extension in lifespan.


Why? Any reason other than this idea appeals to you?

Do you have actuarial projections or the monetary out comes and as for the long term viability of the fund if your suggestions were followed?


----------



## groovetube

well since the crime bill, the obscene do nothing corp tax cuts, and huge military spending needs to be paid for, it makes perfect sense.

Spend your face off, people. Hmmm. Tough choice really. Not it seems, for conservatives.


----------



## BigDL

More Conservative, conservatism cancelling the retrofit program to conserve money but not encouraging energy conservation.



CBCNews said:


> Keith Stewart of Greenpeace Canada said letting the program die is symbolic of what he termed the Conservative government's priorities: Energy is for export, not for saving.


Conservative non-conservation of home energy usage 

Conservatives shill for big oil, OGL has no time for home owners and energy saving.

Dumb! Stupid dumb!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - greasy TARSANDS questions*

The Tyee – Eleven Oily Questions for Every MP

Brought to you by JNN - "bringing a smile to your faces since 2011, chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - a senior moment*

The message got lost

A whole lot of seniors asking themselves why they voted CON after Davos. More to come.

Brought to you by JNN - "wait for the next set of polls - chit too bad these guys have power for 4 years"


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Conservatives shill for big oil, OGL has no time for home owners and energy saving.
> 
> Dumb! Stupid dumb!


Well, I see paranoia and the 'everything is for big oil conspiracy' still rules here. The only dumb thing about it is people that think government programs run forever. Every program comes to an end, even Liberal programs. Go ahead and check back. You'll find every single assistance program like this had an expiry date. Provincial programs too.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Why? Any reason other than this idea appeals to you?
> 
> Do you have actuarial projections or the monetary out comes and as for the long term viability of the fund if your suggestions were followed?


Because welfare programs should only apply to people who can't work. People aged 67 are no longer the decrepit seniors of yesteryear.

Canadian seniors living longer, better, report says « Social Policy in Ontario


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing there's no facts or figures to support that either.


----------



## bryanc

There's plenty of empirical evidence that we're living longer... it's not even worth arguing about.

Furthermore, people are productive and want to work later in life (witness all the successful lawsuits against mandatory retirement).

Finally, people are not starting to work until later (in some cases *much* later - most academics are getting their first jobs in their 40's now) in life, so they aren't going to have the retirement savings necessary to retire at 65.

All of these argue for an increased 'standard' retirement age (and the abolishment of mandatory retirement).

I agree with MF, we should raise the OAS start date to 67, but do so gradually (say 1 month every 2 for 6 years).


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


The Karate Granny.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> There's plenty of empirical evidence that we're living longer... it's not even worth arguing about.
> 
> Furthermore, people are productive and want to work later in life (witness all the successful lawsuits against mandatory retirement).
> 
> Finally, people are not starting to work until later (in some cases *much* later - most academics are getting their first jobs in their 40's now) in life, so they aren't going to have the retirement savings necessary to retire at 65.
> 
> All of these argue for an increased 'standard' retirement age (and the abolishment of mandatory retirement).
> 
> I agree with MF, we should raise the OAS start date to 67, but do so gradually (say 1 month every 2 for 6 years).


The fact that we are living longer, doesn't automatically mean we are 'less decrepit' at 65. If some are, great, work longer, and save us the OAS dollars. Easy.

The contention is, we are far 'fitter' to work at 65 now than we were say, 20 years ago. The truth is, if you don't want to retire and work til 67, so be it, you won't receive OAS til then anyway. I would agree with not forcing people o retire at 65. But for those who do, or need to retire at 65, that option of OAS will no longer be there, which may put a lot in a real bind.

Important detail to note imo.

I think the cons have spent themselves into a corner and are forced to look for dollars in places we may not like.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


I think the cons have made a real misstep here. Regardless of what your opinion is here, the senior vote, is not going to forget this very quickly. At best, it was badly handled.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I think the cons have made a real misstep here. Regardless of what your opinion is here, the senior vote, is not going to forget this very quickly. At best, it was badly handled.


The thing everyone seems to be missing here is that nothing to date has been "handled'. It's been brought out into the open for discussion without a single decision being made yet. Everyone ranting and raving about it is full of it. They have no basis to criticize anything until a strategy to deal with the issue is proposed. This from a guy who at 67 could be directly affected by any changes.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> The thing everyone seems to be missing here is that nothing to date has been "handled'. It's been brought out into the open for discussion without a single decision being made yet. Everyone ranting and raving about it is full of it. They have no basis to criticize anything until a strategy to deal with the issue is proposed. This from a guy who at 67 could be directly affected by any changes.


no sinc, you will NOT be affected by the changes.

And I don't trust this government. It has not shown it knows how to handle money very well at all, so when they say they are thinking about doing a specific thing, it is only natural to react.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> no sinc, you will NOT be affected by the changes.
> 
> And I don't trust this government. It has not shown it knows how to handle money very well at all, so when they say they are thinking about doing a specific thing, it is only natural to react.


Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know for sure that some of the changes will not affect those of us who already receive the pensions? If so please share it. If not, well . . .


----------



## groovetube

It was my understanding the item that caused this uproar was moving the age for OAS to 67, which you are now.

If there is more, then I missed it. Sorry.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> It was my understanding the item that caused this uproar was moving the age for OAS to 67, which you are now.
> 
> If there is more, then I missed it. Sorry.


That was my original point. NO ONE knows for sure yet what changes WILL BE proposed until they are in fact proposed. There is to my knowledge, nothing on paper in terms of any future changes that has been made public, so all the belly-aching is strictly about conjecture.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> That was my original point. NO ONE knows for sure yet what changes WILL BE proposed until they are in fact proposed. There is to my knowledge, nothing on paper in terms of any future changes that has been made public, so all the belly-aching is strictly about conjecture.


Perhaps if there wasn't the uproar they would have gotten away with it.

Are you suggesting we be more, uh, "Canadian" about this?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Are you suggesting we be more, uh, "Canadian" about this?


Just pointing out that crying over spilled milk while the glass sits full on the table is just silly.

I think Harper tossed it out to get feedback, and that will be helpful in forming the final policy, whatever it may turn out to be. And that seems like a reasonable way to open the dialogue to me. Get people's attention, then sit back and feed on the reactions to determine policy.


----------



## groovetube

I don't understand Sinc. First you chide about reacting to what "could" be, and then you are applauding OGL for suggesting changes and waiting to hear this, er, "feedback".

If it's the liberals in power, it's fair game. Now that it's the conservatives in power, it's obvious conservatives aren't interested in the same uproar that occurred under liberal rule.

It;s just what happens regardless of who is in power. You'll just have to get used to it, and by the looks of things, things will get far toastier for the Harper government as time goes on in this majority.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Just pointing out that crying over spilled milk while the glass sits full on the table is just silly.
> 
> I think Harper tossed it out to get feedback, and that will be helpful in forming the final policy, whatever it may turn out to be. And that seems like a reasonable way to open the dialogue to me. Get people's attention, then sit back and feed on the reactions to determine policy.


It honestly felt more like the Billionaire bunch wanted Harpo to sell this so that Canada could get sucked into Syria, Iran and Pakistan....

Clearly I find taking care of our own a much better idea than funneling taxpayer dollars into the war machine.


----------



## groovetube

The message seems to be, taking care of big money and big energy superpower concerns is more important than taking care of our citizens.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> The message seems to be, taking care of big money and big energy superpower concerns is more important than taking care of our citizens.


Gee classic NDP talking point....


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Gee classic NDP talking point....


Indeed. And it's a classic for a good reason; it seems to be a chronic issue with our government, wether Liberal or Conservative.

I often wonder why governments feel so compelled to concern themselves with the interests of billionaires and corporations - clearly these entities are more than capable of looking after themselves. On the other hand, the environment, ordinary citizens, and our social safety nets are often under dire threat, and there is no profit motive in protecting these interests, so one would presume these issues would demand the lion's share of our government's attention and spending capacity.

I've never been a big fan of the Liberals, but their priorities were never as clearly diametrically opposed to mine as the Conservatives. The Cons make me miss the Liberal policies of benign neglect and petty thievery.


----------



## Macfury

The entire notion that able-bodied citizens need to be "taken care of" by government is a sad comment on some members of current society.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The entire notion that able-bodied citizens need to be "taken care of" by government is a sad comment on some members of current society.


In a way, we are in agreement here. I am not counting on any CPP or OAS in that I expect it to be clawed back. I am counting on my small MUN pension and my RRSP and not retiring until we are out of debt. I would rather seem my CPP and OAS go to those who are truly in need of support. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The entire notion that able-bodied citizens need to be "taken care of" by government is a sad comment on some members of current society.


no one, has suggested this, anywhere. In fact, if any reform is done, I'd rather it be a tightening of the rules to ensure only those in real need, get this. I'd be all for that.

However, your notion that able bodied business owners need more money to pile on their huge sums to hand even bigger exec bonuses?

That there, is the true, sad comment.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Gee classic NDP talking point....


And that's a classic right wing response. 

Does one have to be an NDP supporter to want the citizens of Canada, rather than huge money, be given more consideration?

I don't think so.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> And that's a classic right wing response.
> 
> Does one have to be an NDP supporter to want the citizens of Canada, rather than huge money, be given more consideration?
> 
> I don't think so.


I agree with this point. What ever happened to the "red Tories"???


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> And that's a classic right wing response.
> 
> Does one have to be an NDP supporter to want the citizens of Canada, rather than huge money, be given more consideration?
> 
> I don't think so.


It isn't the case and that is why it is a classic NDP talking point....


----------



## groovetube

not everything, is a "talking point" screature. Unfortunately boiling everything down to "talking points" removes any weight an opinion may have, which seems to be one of the many things -wrong- with political discussion in my opinion. 

Honestly, I don't care really, which party is in Ottawa, I take their direction at face value and form my opinion based on that regardless of what the NDP, or the liberals(just what do they stand for again??) have to say about it.

It seems a common lately thing for conservatives, to consider debate a nuisance, which is another sad comment on things currently.


----------



## i-rui

if OAS was actually a legitimate concern (which it seems it really *isn't* as the jump in cost is temporary and sustainable in the long run), then the only fair solution would be to ask the baby boomers to pay for their added cost by increasing the age to 67, and then when their generation works it's way through the system roll the age back to 65 (after 2050 we will drop down to levels lower than today)

of course that will never happen because it would be political suicide, but i'm really disturbed that raising the age for those down the road gets floated as a solution. this is basically the new solution to all of society's problems. kick the can down the road and have someone else deal with it. we see it with the economy, energy management, climate change, union negotiations (where current employees are asked to sell out new hires)...etc...etc...

it's disgusting.


----------



## eMacMan

Everyone in Canada has contributed a large portion of their income towards CPP and by inference OAS. These are not entitlements but rather something we have paid for dearly with our taxes. 

What we are seeing world wide is an effort to steal these funds and presumably divert the proceeds to the Banksters and warmongers. King Harpo is simply marching to the drums his billionaire buddies are beating.


----------



## i-rui

i agree to an extent. i don't have a problem with raising the age to 67 if our *entire society* is asked to shoulder the burden.

but i won't stomach it while our government cuts corporate taxes, deregulates industry to increase their profits and sells out our natural resources for a quick buck.

and then when there's a shortfall the average citizen is supposed to pay for it?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i*f OAS was actually a legitimate concern (which it seems it really isn't *as the jump in cost is temporary and sustainable in the long run), then the only fair solution would be to ask the baby boomers to pay for their added cost by increasing the age to 67, and then when their generation works it's way through the system roll the age back to 65 (after 2050 we will drop down to levels lower than today)
> 
> of course that will never happen because it would be political suicide, but i'm really disturbed that raising the age for those down the road gets floated as a solution. this is basically the new solution to all of society's problems. kick the can down the road and have someone else deal with it. we see it with the economy, energy management, climate change, union negotiations (where current employees are asked to sell out new hires)...etc...etc...
> 
> it's disgusting.


It is a legitimate concern, not a crisis like everyone except the government is trying to say the government is saying.

Is Old Age Security truly unsustainable?



> ...All the talk has raised questions about whether the OAS program is truly heading toward some kind of sustainability crisis.
> 
> "Some of the rhetoric has been exaggerated on both sides of the debate," Kevin Milligan, associate professor of economics at the University of British Columbia, told CBCNews.ca.
> 
> *But Milligan, who has studied OAS for over 15 years, said with an aging population and rising life expectancy putting stress on public finances, the core policy issue is a reasonable one to raise...*





> ...A federal government actuarial *report on the OAS program released in June, from the office of the chief actuary, revealed some of the projected costs of the program and raised some future concerns about its viability.
> *
> *The report found that demographic changes will "have a major impact" on the ratio of the number of workers for every retiree. That ratio, currently around 4.4 workers to every retiree, will drop to 2.2 workers in 2050, a demographic shift that would decrease the tax base pool.*
> 
> As well, the number of recipients of OAS is expected to almost double over the next 20 years — 4.7 million in 2010 to 9.3 million by 2030, mainly due to the retirement of the baby boom generation over that period.
> 
> Costs for the program are also expected to rise 32 per cent over the next five years from $36.3 billion in 2010 to $48.3 billion in 2015 and to $108 billion by 2030.
> 
> As a percentage of GDP, Milligan said the cost will grow from the current 2.41 per cent of GDP to 3.14 per cent by 2031. That increase would be equivalent to about $12 billion.
> 
> "There's a question about characterizing whether that's big or small," Milligan said. "That's not nothing. That's why it's reasonable to have a look at it..."


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> not everything, is a "talking point" screature. Unfortunately boiling everything down to "talking points" removes any weight an opinion may have, which seems to be one of the many things -wrong- with political discussion in my opinion.
> 
> Honestly, I don't care really, which party is in Ottawa, I take their direction at face value and form my opinion based on that regardless of what the NDP, or the liberals(just what do they stand for again??) have to say about it.
> 
> It seems a common lately thing for conservatives, to consider debate a nuisance, which is another sad comment on things currently.


Agreed not everything is and this is the first time I have called you out on it unlike yourself and others here who have been known to use the the term for almost any statement that contradicts their own view point... so relatively speaking... suck it up princess and don't pretend to be so innocent or diplomatic. 

However that being said, if your statement is an honest attempt at improving the nature and tenor of the discourse here I am all for it.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> It is a legitimate concern, not a crisis like everyone except the government is trying say the government is saying.
> 
> Is Old Age Security truly unsustainable?


I don't think anyone is debating that it will cost more, but there are 2 important factors to remember

1) baby boomers in general have more wealth than previous generations, and so will not require as much from OAS

2) the baby boomer bulge will eventually work it's way through the system, and then the pressure on OAS will be greatly reduced as the amount of people retiring will be less then today.

so while the cost will increase for a couple of decades the long term sustainability of OAS isn't really in question.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> I don't think anyone is debating that it will cost more, but there are 2 important factors to remember
> 
> 1) baby boomers in general have more wealth than previous generations, and so will not require as much from OAS
> 
> 2) the baby boomer bulge will eventually work it's way through the system, and then the pressure on OAS will be greatly reduced as the amount of people retiring will be less then today.
> 
> so while the cost will increase for a couple of decades the long term sustainability of OAS isn't really in question.


Depends on ones notion of long term I guess... a couple of decades is plenty long term in terms of political cycles.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Depends on ones notion of long term I guess... a couple of decades is plenty long term in terms of political cycles.


It means that one generation will be working its ass off throughout their entire productive life to support the next.


----------



## groovetube

no, we'll be doing that to pay for all the pork barreling and policies of this government for years come. This government, who prided itself on fiscal conservatism will have us paying untold billions on crime policies that won't do anything, just for starters.

Being angry that we have to pay into OAS will seem minor in comparison. At least there's good to come of that...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Agreed not everything is and this is the first time I have called you out on it unlike yourself and others here who have been known to use the the term for almost any statement that contradicts their own view point... so relatively speaking... suck it up princess and don't pretend to be so innocent or diplomatic.
> 
> However that being said, if your statement is an honest attempt at improving the nature and tenor of the discourse here I am all for it.


Princess? wow.

There's a difference between outright defence of a government's position, -consistent-, defence, and having an opinion that may, or may not be similar to one of the other parties.

One that seems missed I guess.

It seems my "talking point" has been, and is used by all of the parties. Including the conservatives. So, time to lower the drama queen level on this one.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Princess? wow.
> 
> There's a difference between outright defence of a government's position, -consistent-, defence, and having an opinion that may, or may not be similar to one of the other parties.
> 
> One that seems missed I guess.
> 
> It seems my "talking point" has been, and is used by all of the parties. Including the conservatives. So, time to lower the drama queen level on this one.


Yeah princess... get over it and yourself.


----------



## groovetube

how do you explain the fact that my "talking point", is one used by ALL parties?

Between all the pee and vinegar stuff that is.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Well, I see paranoia and the 'everything is for big oil conspiracy' still rules here. The only dumb thing about it is people that think government programs run forever. Every program comes to an end, even Liberal programs. Go ahead and check back. You'll find every single assistance program like this had an expiry date. Provincial programs too.





Macfury said:


> Because welfare programs should only apply to people who can't work. People aged 67 are no longer the decrepit seniors of yesteryear.
> 
> Canadian seniors living longer, better, report says « Social Policy in Ontario


The "program" may indeed one day have a natural reason to end, that being when energy conservation is no longer a major concern.

The current program provides more to the government than it takes from the government.

This is an infrastructure program that is a win, win, win, win for everyone. Saves on the amount energy to heat homes, provides work to many Canadians to do the retrofit work and the supplies for the retrofit. Provides economic activity for Canadian contractors and companies to profit from and finally provides taxes back to the government all things being equal.

However, short sighted views, of what provides the most viable economic activity and saves the environment seems to be lost on the exploiters.

Canadians on average may be living longer but some are putting in hard work everyday on the job. Some occupations like brick layer, plasters, carpet layers, coal miner are some examples where these workers will have predictable and unavoidable wear and tear on their bodies. 

Forcing them into accepting poverty or working injured or even worse fighting for compensation claims as the law changes for OAS and CPP but not WC legislation is really not acceptable.


----------



## groovetube

Tory senator’s remarks on murderers sparks death penalty furor - The Globe and Mail

Always has to be someone opening their trap, and, oh LOOK! Shiny ball!


----------



## BigDL

Seems Stockwell Day was correct, in that dinosaurs and people co-exsisted on earth at the same time when, I and Senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu considering his views are presently living in Canada.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Tory senator’s remarks on murderers sparks death penalty furor - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Always has to be someone opening their trap, and, oh LOOK! Shiny ball!


Sigh, one nutcase member of a party does not party policy make. There are goofballs in every party that frankly embarrass their caucus and this is but one example. To make any claim the party or caucus are in agreement is a big stretch, much like most of the other anti-con smear attempts in this thread. But then again, consider the source.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Sigh, one nutcase member of a party does not party policy make. There are goofballs in every party that frankly embarrass their caucus and this is but one example. To make any claim the party or caucus are in agreement is a big stretch, much like most of the other anti-con smear attempts in this thread. But then again, consider the source.


Sinc, I didn't make any of those statements at all, and I'm not sure how you got that frankly. 

In fact there was a veiled jab at the media (etc.) for making a deal of this in the first place. But hey, if it were a liberal senator making some outrageous statement, you can bet that'd be splashed all over too.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Sinc, I didn't make any of those statements at all, and I'm not sure how you got that frankly.
> 
> In fact there was a veiled jab at the media (etc.) for making a deal of this in the first place. But hey, if it were a liberal senator making some outrageous statement, you can bet that'd be splashed all over too.


I'm aware of that groove, I simply meant that trying to tar the con caucus and party with this somehow being 'their' view is ridiculous. But that 'shiny ball' comment you are so fond of using made me think you might be in agreement with that viewpoint.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*On that note....here come the CON nutbars*

NDP accuses Harper of allowing Tories to revive abortion debate - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "here comes the nutbar wing wanting their chunk of chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Yup let's sell the commies Yukon!*

Chinese ambassador before Harper visit: China wants Arctic status - Winnipeg Free Press

Brought to you by JNN - "Can't wait to see polls following pension cuts"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Comment from across the pond....give them an unregistered gun!*

BBC News - Canada hanging row over senator comments

The BBC! Big time!

Brought to you by JNN - "rule britannia chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*This is getting fishier - another CON broken promise*

Campbell River Mirror - NDP says Tories break promise to Vancouver Island fishing industry

Wake up canada we got hoodwinked!

Brought to you by JNN - "Harper eats imported tilapia chit"


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I'm aware of that groove, I simply meant that trying to tar the con caucus and party with this somehow being 'their' view is ridiculous. But that 'shiny ball' comment you are so fond of using made me think you might be in agreement with that viewpoint.


Well the liberals were never afforded this luxury. Why give it to the conservatives?


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Chinese ambassador before Harper visit: China wants Arctic status - Winnipeg Free Press
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Can't wait to see polls following pension cuts"


Sure...when Canada gets a permanent seat at the Security Council...:lmao:

Them Chinee is get'n pretty uppitty...


----------



## kps

The NDP...why don't they just STFU...

I called them the conscience of Canadians once...but I'm getting a little bit sick of them constantly yapping like little dogs.


----------



## SINC

kps said:


> The NDP...why don't they just STFU...


Ditto for Rae and the Libs.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> The NDP...why don't they just STFU...
> 
> I called them the conscience of Canadians once...but I'm getting a little bit sick of them constantly yapping like little dogs.


like the conservatives did in opposition?

wimpering about not going into Iraq, bank deregulation, spending that sort of thing?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> like the conservatives did in opposition?
> 
> wimpering about not going into Iraq, bank deregulation, spending that sort of thing?


tptptptptptptptptptptptp

That whole collection of them (the current elected NDP contingent) seem like a bunch of wankers. Sorry groove, I just don't have much respect for them. Even Peggy Nash has let me down by some of the stuff she says...and I even voted for her once...just once.


----------



## ehMax

kps said:


> The NDP...why don't they just STFU...
> 
> I called them the conscience of Canadians once...but I'm getting a little bit sick of them constantly yapping like little dogs.





SINC said:


> Ditto for Rae and the Libs.





kps said:


> tptptptptptptptptptptptp
> 
> That whole collection of them (the current elected NDP contingent) seem like a bunch of wankers. Sorry groove, I just don't have much respect for them. Even Peggy Nash has let me down by some of the stuff she says...and I even voted for her once...just once.


Political discourse at it's finest


----------



## CubaMark

kps said:


> The NDP...why don't they just STFU...
> 
> I called them the conscience of Canadians once...but I'm getting a little bit sick of them constantly yapping like little dogs.


When your conscience is bothering you, maybe you should take the time to listen...?


----------



## kps

ehMax said:


> Political discourse at it's finest. :roll eyes:


Welcome to the thread ehMax....:heybaby:


----------



## kps

CubaMark said:


> When your conscience is bothering you, maybe you should take the time to listen...?


My conscience is clear...


----------



## Joker Eh

kps said:


> The NDP...why don't they just STFU...
> 
> I called them the conscience of Canadians once...but I'm getting a little bit sick of them constantly yapping like little dogs.





SINC said:


> Ditto for Rae and the Libs.


Is there a difference between the two of the them?

Rae would like everyone to forget his past.


----------



## kps

Joker Eh said:


> Is there a difference between the two of the them?
> 
> Rae would like everyone to forget his past.


Observe:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-77.html#post1162152


----------



## groovetube

Only some might remember him in Ontario. Outside of Ontario, he's a brand new baby.


----------



## Joker Eh

kps said:


> Observe:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-77.html#post1162152


Sorry forgot my sarcasm smilie


----------



## jimbotelecom

ehMax said:


> Political discourse at it's finest. :roll eyes:


You're not the only one!


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> The NDP...why don't they just STFU...
> 
> I called them the conscience of Canadians once...but I'm getting a little bit sick of them constantly yapping like little dogs.





SINC said:


> Ditto for Rae and the Libs.


:clap: :yawn:

Wasn't this the place: "The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread" you two had advocated for, to have, such scintillating political conversations.

Oh why does *"pot calling the hash dope"* keep rising in to mind, oh way?


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> :clap: :yawn:
> 
> Wasn't this the place: "The Canadian Political DISCUSSION Thread" *you two had advocated* for, to have, such scintillating political conversations.
> 
> Oh why does *"pot calling the hash dope"* keep rising in to mind, oh way?


Ummm. I think you better re-read the thread then, cause joo got it wrong, mang.

Sounds like someone went whining to ehMax, 'cause he never comments in this thread and there's a lot worse in here that what I said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Seems there is a lot of thin skins in here on both sides. LOL


----------



## groovetube

no it was a couple of others, who spent time whining and derailing this thread, so they started another one, called the 'get a room *cough* er discussion' thread. Which merely became a mutual something or other.


----------



## CubaMark

*What the heck?*

Sun News Citizenship Ceremony: Federal Bureaucrats Pose As 'New Canadians' On Broadcast



> Six federal bureaucrats were drafted to pose as new Canadians for a citizenship reaffirmation ceremony broadcast on the Sun News network, an event requested by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney's office.
> 
> The bureaucrats smiled and held Canadian flags as the TV hosts referred to a group of 10 people as "new Canadians" that had "finally" received their citizenship.


(Huffington Post)


----------



## bryanc

CubaMark said:


> Federal Bureaucrats Pose As 'New Canadians' On Broadcast


Why are _our_ civil servants (who are payed by our tax dollars), helping prop up this bogus for-profit conservative propaganda outlet?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *What the heck?*


What the heck indeed. Who is watching Sun TV?


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> Why are _our_ civil servants (who are payed by our tax dollars), helping prop up this bogus for-profit conservative propaganda outlet?


'cause the boss said to do it. 

Who is the boss of the department? Why that would be the Minister wouldn't it? Let's see what happens to be Jason Kenney's Minion of OLG's ...


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> 'cause the boss said to do it.
> 
> Who is the boss of the department? Why that would be the Minister wouldn't it? Let's see what happens to be Jason Kenney's Minion of OLG's ...


.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> .


Not really in the Westminster System of government there is the convention one of doing the honourable thing for the good of all. The Minister is responsible for the actions of everyone in his department.

These Conservatives continually disgrace themselves. These Conservatives were found in contempt of Parliament twice in one session of Parliament. The honourable action is to resign after disgracing oneself so as to not disgrace everyone else. 

The Canadian Conservatives have no honour, these are the facts.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Not really in the Westminster System of government there is the convention one of doing the honourable thing for the good of all. The Minister is responsible for the actions of everyone in his department.
> 
> These Conservatives continually disgrace themselves. These Conservatives were found in contempt of Parliament twice in one session of Parliament. The honourable action is to resign after disgracing oneself so as to not disgrace everyone else.
> 
> The Canadian Conservatives have no honour, these are the facts.


Hair shirts are also available at the vending machine down the hall--in size large!


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> Not really in the Westminster System of government there is the convention one of doing the honourable thing for the good of all. The Minister is responsible for the actions of everyone in his department.
> 
> These Conservatives continually disgrace themselves. These Conservatives were found in contempt of Parliament twice in one session of Parliament. The honourable action is to resign after disgracing oneself so as to not disgrace everyone else.
> 
> The Canadian Conservatives have no honour, these are the facts.


The terms Honourable and Right Honourable I believe were coined on the hopeful but entirely unproven theory that: If we attach the label the individuals might somehow miraculously abandon their former ways, and live up to the label. 

In recent memory I would have to say this theory has failed miserably and these labels should be removed forthwith, regardless of the political persuasion of the labels bearers.


----------



## Joker Eh

BigDL said:


> Not really in the Westminster System of government there is the convention one of doing the honourable thing for the good of all. The Minister is responsible for the actions of everyone in his department.
> 
> These Conservatives continually disgrace themselves. These Conservatives were found in contempt of Parliament twice in one session of Parliament. The honourable action is to resign after disgracing oneself so as to not disgrace everyone else.
> 
> The Canadian Conservatives have no honour, these are the facts.


All I have to say is Jean what's his name. Why is with the short memory?



> A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.
> Jean Chretien


:clap:


----------



## BigDL

Why to go! Way to save the Canadian Conservatives with the C&WDS

Now there is quite a defence of the Conservatives. The old 2 kinds of defence or the C&W Defence as in "Somebody done somebody wrong song" defence.

In Honour of the C&W Defensive Strategy (C&WDS) I present Mr. B.J. Thomas (not looking quite as dapper as he once did, but then again neither are the Conservatives) Somebody Done Somebody Wrong Song for your listening pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdshGzbLsjg


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Why to go! Way to save the Canadian Conservatives with the C&WDS
> 
> Now there is quite a defence of the Conservatives. The old 2 kinds of defence or the C&W Defence as in "Somebody done somebody wrong song" defence.
> 
> In Honour of the C&W Defensive Strategy (C&WDS) I present Mr. B.J. Thomas (not looking quite as dapper as he once did, but then again neither are the Conservatives) Somebody Done Somebody Wrong Song for your listening pleasure.


.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> .


How filled with pathos is it, when your dog and pony show, only has a one trick pony?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*How do you spell P R O P A G A N D A? CONS and the Sun know how.*

Sun TV?s fake citizenship ceremony discredits it and Harper government - thestar.com

Fakers!

Brought to you by JNN - "shedding light on chit day by day"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Sun TV?s fake citizenship ceremony discredits it and Harper government - thestar.com
> 
> Fakers!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "shedding light on chit day by day"


:clap:

Well JNN is putting the networks knutts into the western wringer. The next thing you'll know *THE cartoon* will be directed in your general direction by a one trick pony cowboy.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*This just in CON admits to mistake*

Kenney's office apologizes for ‘new Canadians’ stunt on Sun News - The Globe and Mail

faker!

Brought to you by JNN - "chit these CON poseurs are easy to finger"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON blames bureaucrats!!!!*

Kenney blames bureaucrats, won't apologize for fake citizenship broadcast.
:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

brought to you by JNN - "ignore the truth at your own peril, chit"


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> How filled with pathos is it, when your dog and pony show, only has a one trick pony?


Yeah, it's a bummer isn't it. Kinda like JNN.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Kenney's office apologizes for ‘new Canadians’ stunt on Sun News - The Globe and Mail
> 
> faker!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit these CON poseurs are easy to finger"


it's pretty embarrassing for Kenny, and as I dislike the guy and don't trust him, I say it looks good on him.

But truthfully, this is kinda non-news to me really, I'm more concerned about the policies of this government, than this sort of thing. Often staff in those offices can do some pretty brainless things that end up embarrassing the minister, I have a number of family members working in senior positions in government in Ottawa, and hear about these sorts of debacles all the time.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> it's pretty embarrassing for Kenny, and as I dislike the guy and don't trust him, I say it looks good on him.
> 
> But truthfully, this is kinda non-news to me really, I'm more concerned about the policies of this government, than this sort of thing. Often staff in those offices can do some pretty brainless things that end up embarrassing the minister, I have a number of family members working in senior positions in government in Ottawa, and hear about these sorts of debacles all the time.


OK OK let's let them off the hook and wait for some larger fish to fry.

It'll be great to land Harper when he's belting out a Beatles tune.


----------



## SINC

^


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - Seal day - orf orf*

Stephen Harper celebrates Canada's gruesome seal slaughter | Vancouver, Canada | Straight.com

Nice photos here!

Brought to you by JNN - "Harper supports slaughter of innocent baby seals"


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Stephen Harper celebrates Canada's gruesome seal slaughter | Vancouver, Canada | Straight.com
> 
> Nice photos here!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Harper supports slaughter of innocent baby seals"


Until vegetarians make up the majority of the human population spare me your self righteous sanctimony over these photos... any slaughter house or fishing vessel would have the same and worse photos... 

You the next Brigitte Bardot or Paul McCartney and his blood sucking ex (talentless) wife Heather Mills...?

Spare me until you look at the bigger picture... such self righteous clap trap is more sickening than the photos you linked to... 









Ridiculous....


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper selling TARSANDS PIPE and SEALS to commies*

Harper to promote seal products on China trip - The Globe and Mail

Harper is obviously a big fan of biodiversity! Now we can ship Seal penis for added comfort in the shark fin soup. 

Yeah let's trade 50,000 baby seal penises for 1 panda. Don't forget the TARSANDS excrement.

Brought to you by JNN - "Have you ever been to seal billy?"


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper to promote seal products on China trip - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Harper is obviously a big fan of biodiversity! Now we can ship Seal penis for added comfort in the shark fin soup.
> 
> Yeah let's trade 50,000 baby seal penises for 1 panda. Don't forget the TARSANDS excrement.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Have you ever been to seal billy?"


jimbotelecom, keep in mind that no one in Canada has been allowed to hunt for baby seals for over 20 years. Only adult harp seals are allowed to be culled.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> jimbotelecom, keep in mind that no one in Canada has been allowed to hunt for baby seals for over 20 years. Only adult harp seals are allowed to be culled.


The *J*aundiced *N*ews *N*etwork isn't concerned with facts, just smearing Conservatives.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*A little more fuel for the nation is strong jobs jobs jobs file*

Bottom line, Mr. Flaherty, is that the jobs market is stalled - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "oh oh, voted in on lies - press the reset button please "


----------



## groovetube

It's a funny turnaround. I recall a time where news reports, whether factual or not, were reported all the time when the liberals were in power.

It's a toughie when your party of choice is in government for a while. They tend to get criticized.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> jimbotelecom, keep in mind that no one in Canada has been allowed to hunt for baby seals for over 20 years. Only adult harp seals are allowed to be culled.


Not once the CONS reverse course as some Chinese love baby seal penis for their <insert phrase> affect on the human body.


----------



## SINC

^


The *J*aundiced *N*ews *N*etwork:


----------



## BigDL

Did you hear the latest from OTP wasn't it *right on*


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Yeah, it's a bummer isn't it. Kinda like JNN.


I haven't seen JNN post the same thing twice. Try clearing your cache; I think you're browser may be posting the same thing over and over, instead of your usual substantive intellectual contribution to the discussion.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> I haven't seen JNN post the same thing twice. Try clearing your cache; I think you're browser may be posting the same thing over and over, instead of your usual substantive intellectual contribution to the discussion.


Beats the pre-fabbed drivel from the science crowd admonishing us dummies for not being educated enough to have opinions on certain topics.

As for the cartoon, which itself speaks volumes about the conservative conspiracy in this thread, it is still far behind in numbers compared to that *J*aundiced *N*ews *N*etwork logo thing that appears time after time after time after time . . .


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I think you're browser ...


SINC--you are a browser!


----------



## SINC

Yeah MF, brow wow.


----------



## MacGuiver

screature said:


> until vegetarians make up the majority of the human population spare me your self righteous sanctimony over these photos... Any slaughter house or fishing vessel would have the same and worse photos...
> 
> You the next brigitte bardot or or paul mccartney and his blood sucking ex (talentless) wife heather mills...?
> 
> Spare me until you look at the bigger picture... Such self righteous clap trap is more sickening than the photos you linked to...
> 
> View attachment 22798
> 
> 
> ridiculous....


+1


----------



## BigDL

I just hope the OTP isn't drooling.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper- described in an Orwellian reverie!*

Harper needs to wake up from his 'Orwellian reverie'

Boo!

Brought to you by JNN - "'sincin' the news on da thread daily since 2011"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Let the commies come and extract shale gas and we'll throw in the water for free*

Asia Times Online :: Shale-gas deal sweetens Harper's Beijing trip

Love it here's where there's growth country wide. Let's start shale extraction across the nation!

Sounds like opportunity and jobs!

Brought to you by JNN - "chit - we got shale on our property watch out for the mineral deposit claims on private property! "


----------



## Dr.G.

Lest we forget, from dawn's early light here in NL to the setting sun in BC, we are ALL Canadians. Paix, mes amis.

O Canada National Anthem - YouTube


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Lest we forget, from dawn's early light here in NL to the setting sun in BC, we are ALL Canadians. Paix, mes amis.
> 
> O Canada National Anthem - YouTube


Signing off a bit early aren't you?


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Signing off a bit early aren't you?


No, just a bit of a reminder that whatever our political stripe or POV, we are Canadians. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> No, just a bit of a reminder that whatever our political stripe or POV, we are Canadians. Paix, mon ami.


So what brought that on? Feeling a little emotional this eve?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Off to China:


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> So what brought that on? Feeling a little emotional this eve?


Yes, as I prepare to stare down another Canadian blizzard. 

God bless Canada. :love2:


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS: let's cut food inspection budgets to kill Canadians*

Federal food safety surveillance program stalled - Politics - CBC News

Ramifications of voting HARPER CON.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, now I need a food tester before I swallow"


----------



## i-rui

Caterpillar: The moth flying too close to the flame



> EMT’s bully tactics expose the corporate tax agenda for what it is: a flimsy political promise that Canadians can ill afford to keep bankrolling.


----------



## groovetube

Unfortunately, this government's priorities are very wrong. How long will people continue to fall for this numbskull notion that more corp tax cuts leads to more job creation?

I wonder how many neo cons will tell everyone how we don't need any of these food inspectors and any of the other important posts being wiped out.

We sure don't want to get in the way of these corps, because, you know, they will always do the right thing right? Especially when it comes to our food.


----------



## CubaMark

groovetube said:


> I wonder how many neo cons will tell everyone how we don't need any of these food inspectors and any of the other important posts being wiped out.
> 
> We sure don't want to get in the way of these corps, because, you know, they will always do the right thing right? Especially when it comes to our food.


I've been trying to wrap my head around this for years. The Republicans in the USA have done this for decades - constantly deregulating food inspection services, and the result was a rash of contaminations and deaths. The Conservatives appear to have the same inclination. What is it? More of the anti-science agenda? Or are they forcing "survival of the fittest" (i.e., those who can afford to buy better quality food survive, while the poor eat sh** and die)? (the latter concept pretty ironic given the tendency toward evangelical christianism and the embrace of "intelligent design").


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

Depictions of pathetic, helpless seniors like the ones shown above are an insult to real seniors everywhere.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Depictions of pathetic, helpless seniors like the ones shown above are an insult to real seniors everywhere.


See there's the attitude right there.

I'm sorry, but my mom requires a walker, but she isn't "pathetic or helpless' macfury. She's tough as nails, and takes on her challenges without a lot of complaining.

I didn't think the senior depicted was pathetic at all.


----------



## groovetube

Canadians want OAS at 65: Poll | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

Not only are seniors part of the con core supporter group, but...



> The group most opposed to the changes were those with retirement in their sights - Canadians aged 45-to-59.


so are they. I'd say, excellent move mr. harper. Do some more of those please!


----------



## jimbotelecom

4 more years! 4 more years! 4 more years! Of ineptitude.


----------



## CubaMark

Hey, *GrooveTube*!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Depictions of pathetic, helpless seniors like the ones shown above are an insult to real seniors everywhere.


I agree, Macfury. :clap::clap::clap: Once you get to that stage of life and level of inability, it should be "game over". The Harper Government of Canada should rename OAS to be the Old-folks Assisted Suicide, a division of Service Canada. It is the ethical way to deal with this growing problem. Those baby boomers are going to bankrupt Canada as they get older and more in need of health services. We should round up all such people and send them off on the ice flows of Canada's far north ............. and do it soon before global warming brings an end to the ice flows of Canada's north. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

I think Harper's gearing up to support NASA - *N*ewt's *A*ged *S*enior *A*ction Plan - build a moonbase, house all the old folks..


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Federal food safety surveillance program stalled - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Ramifications of voting HARPER CON.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit, now I need a food tester before I swallow"


Comedian Ron James once quipped; "when the Liberals are in Government you need to call the cops, when the Conservatives are in Government you call the morgue."

I guess, this is the type of situation he had in mind when he offered the comment.


----------



## i-rui

Why don't the Conservatives just implement a "Logan's Run" policy to handle our OAS "crisis"?

Think of the money we'd save on Health Care!!!! We could eliminate corporate tax altogether!


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> I think Harper's gearing up to support NASA - *N*ewt's *A*ged *S*enior *A*ction Plan - build a moonbase, house all the old folks..


Now that is a unique idea, CubaMark. Still, my ice flow "solution" is less costly. :greedy: XX)

Paix, mi amigo.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Comedian Ron James once quipped; "when the Liberals are in Government you need to call the cops, when the Conservatives are in Government you call the morgue."
> 
> I guess, this is the type of situation he had in mind when he offered the comment.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Why don't the Conservatives just implement a "Logan's Run" policy to handle our OAS "crisis"?
> 
> Think of the money we'd save on Health Care!!!! We could eliminate corporate tax altogether!


Interesting. A truly fiscal conservative government in Ottawa!?! Very interesting.....


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Hey, *GrooveTube*!


What sort of person posts that sort of filth?

Right. I take people at face value. If that was a troll post, it says more about the troll than the response. 

Trolls, are indeed, pathetic. But I think many of us here know that.

Maybe it's just mad it's 'get a room' discussion thread went nowhere.

So much for discussion!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> What sort of person posts that sort of filth?
> 
> Right. I take people at face value. If that was a troll post, it says more about the troll than the response.
> 
> Trolls, are indeed, pathetic. But I think many of us here know that.
> 
> Maybe it's just mad it's 'get a room' discussion thread went nowhere.
> 
> So much for discussion!


Some would say it takes one to know one.


----------



## groovetube

Well, clearly I didn't, and took it at face value. As shown by my response.

Good call Sinc.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Suggested reading for all on U.S. prison system*

This is an excellent investigative article on the U.S. "correctional" system. Does anyone think this may happen here? I do. We're about to start throwing adults into jail for 2 years or more for marijauna possession. Please consider reading this. Thanks.

By the way, the author is Canadian, born and raised in beautiful Montréal. Merci.

Mass Incarceration and Criminal Justice in America : The New Yorker


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> This is an excellent investigative article on the U.S. "correctional" system. Does anyone think this may happen here? I do. We're about to start throwing adults into jail for 2 years or more for marijauna possession. Please consider reading this. Thanks.
> 
> By the way, the author is Canadian, born and raised in beautiful Montréal. Merci.
> 
> Mass Incarceration and Criminal Justice in America : The New Yorker


Way too much US content in this thread lately, but okay, let's discuss your point. AFAIK, the US has a "Zero tolerance" policy wrt drugs, while this legislation allows the individual up to 6 marijuana plants for personal use. More than that, and you're a growop...and that is a huge problem in this country that need addressing in either legalizing pot altogether and licensing growers or cracking down on them. One or the other.

One good thing about the Conservatives was some new legislation with regards to citizens arrests, but they didn't go far enough as far asI'm concerned in establishing better self defence and castle laws.

Prime example of a double standard is the recent Ho case, where the billionaire crack addict can avoid jail for forcible confinement, possession of drugs and an unregistered loaded 9mm handgun. While Toronto shop keeper David Chan almost lost his freedom by detaining a thief and licensed firearms owner Ian Thomson who defended himself and his property in a clearly murderous fire bombing attach on himself and his property is still fighting serious jail time for the bogus unsafe storage charges...a paper crime.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> .... but they didn't go far enough as far asI'm concerned in establishing better self defence and castle laws.
> 
> Prime example of a double standard is the recent Ho case, where the billionaire crack addict can avoid jail for forcible confinement, possession of drugs and an unregistered loaded 9mm handgun. While Toronto shop keeper David Chan almost lost his freedom by detaining a thief and licensed firearms owner Ian Thomson who defended himself and his property in a clearly murderous fire bombing attach on himself and his property is still fighting serious jail time for the bogus unsafe storage charges...a paper crime.


Given that the Cons want to drastically expand jail capacity I would expect these problems to worsen rather than intelligent legislation coming to the fore. 

Also pretty sure both cases are being prosecuted under provincial laws. Either way if capacity exceeds real criminals they will manufacture crimes to fill the jails.


----------



## groovetube

let's waste many more billions on nothing!! On failed policies to boot!

Oh but let's whip up the sheep into believing we need to squeeze retiring citizens. The conservative way.


----------



## Macfury

I suspect Canadians --including seniors--need to get off the mother's milk of social programs. Even 65 is not too late to grow up and take responsibility for one's own life.


----------



## kps

eMacMan said:


> Given that the Cons want to drastically expand jail capacity I would expect these problems to worsen rather than intelligent legislation coming to the fore.
> 
> Also pretty sure both cases are being prosecuted under provincial laws. Either way if capacity exceeds real criminals they will manufacture crimes to fill the jails.


Firearms act is federal and so was the other case. The only distinction is length of incarceration, if you get "2 years less a day" you serve your time in provincial institutions, otherwise off you go to a federal pen.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> I suspect Canadians --including seniors--need to get off the mother's milk of social programs. Even 65 is not too late to grow up and take responsibility for one's own life.


Well, I don't know about that, I guess it would depend on a lot of variables, but I'd be willing to wait till 70 (provided I live that long) if it meant more money. Otherwise, if I'm entitled to it, then I'd take it at 65...thank you very much.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Well, I don't know about that, I guess it would depend on a lot of variables, but I'd be willing to wait till 70 (provided I live that long) if it meant more money. Otherwise, if I'm entitled to it, then I'd take it at 65...thank you very much.


If you're entitled to it, sure. But why do these programs exist in the first place for people who can take care of themselves, save money, etc? They're depicted as turning 65 and suddenly they're wards of the state. throwing up their hands and waiting for the government cheque to arrive.

I never bought this BS about how "they earned their rest," etc. They're simply people who worked as I work today, making choices about how much to spend and how much to save.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> If you're entitled to it, sure. But why do these programs exist in the first place for people who can take care of themselves, save money, etc?


Be that as it may, it's a little unfair to say "don't worry, we'll take care of you" for decades and then at the last minute say "whoops! Sorry, no can do."


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I suspect Canadians --including seniors--need to get off the mother's milk of social programs. Even 65 is not too late to grow up and take responsibility for one's own life.


Having paid for these programs from their inception, seniors are indeed entitled to collect from them. 

If the Cons and Liberals spent the money on things other than CPP and OAS then I would suggest they be denied their Platinum and Diamond pensions until the stolen funds are fully restored.


----------



## kps

Yup, that's the thing, we paid into it and were guaranteed to receive it. I've had a taxable job since i was 14 and I'm still 11 years from so called official retirement. That's 40 years of contributions. Problem is there are people who will collect OAS who never contributed a single dime in taxes to support it. 

(and I'm not talking about CPP and CPP contributions strictly OAS)


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> ...(and I'm not talking about CPP and CPP contributions strictly OAS)


I mean OAS.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> I mean OAS.


I know MF, I was clarifying my position.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Having paid for these programs from their inception, seniors are indeed entitled to collect from them.
> 
> If the Cons and Liberals spent the money on things other than CPP and OAS then I would suggest they be denied their Platinum and Diamond pensions until the stolen funds are fully restored.


you just identified what's wrong with this whole picture in the first place.

When you have a government who thinks handing more billions out for bigger exec bonuses, blowing untold billions on a joke of a military expenditure, not to mention wasting and obscene amount of money on more failed crime agendas which have already well proved itself as a total failure, and now you want to tell us we have to squeeze the seniors?

That's going to blow up in their face and so it should.

If anything, OAS is and should be designed based on need. The wingnuts floating around spouting this nonsense about some safety net that suddenly becomes a take care of everybody despite need have missed the whole point. But then they'll support -anything- this government says, regardless of whether or not it makes sense. As long as this government continues to whisper sweet nothings in their ears about fiscal conservatism and low taxes, they'll fight tooth and nail for them. Meanwhile, the same government will smile about it the whole time.

This government spent itself silly pure and simple, it's what conservative governments do, and now they're looking for money to cover their sorry butts. That's what this is really about.


----------



## Macfury

kps: as long as the opponents of too-broadly offered senior welfare benefits are incoherent, and unfocused in their rage, the streamlining will probably proceed.


----------



## groovetube

It's funny how macfury always returns to the same theme when he's cornered. The trolling, and the often too predictable everyone is angry, or in a rage. I think it may be, that he would -like- them to be angry, or in a rage.

Perhaps it's a projection. Let's face it. Imagine you have such strong idealistic libertarian beliefs. And then, a government you voted ofr, since the other guy was apparently worse, spent far more of our tax money frivolously, (but they were forced apparently), and completely fly in the face, of this libertarian ideal.

That could cause some real anger, true rage. 

I'm sorry macfury, but when you can return to rational discussion, which might require you to recognize no one is for, "too broadly offered" seniors benefits, but fair, rational system that recognizes need, perhaps everyone may see you less of a troll. I would have thought my sarcasm of your continued attempts might have made this clear, but I'm not surprised this fell on deaf ears.

Keep on trollin'


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> It's funny how macfury always returns to the same theme when he's cornered. The trolling, and the often too predictable everyone is angry, or in a rage. I think it may be, that he would -like- them to be angry, or in a rage.


Do not go gentle into that good night, 
Old age should burn and rage at close of day; 
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. 
Though wise men at their end know dark is right, 
Because their words had forked no lightning they 
Do not go gentle into that good night. 

Dylan Thomas


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Old age should burn and rage at close of day...


It should. A little rage would go a long way to getting some of them off welfare!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It should. A little rage would go a long way to getting some of them off welfare!


Sadly, easier said than done for many seniors, Macfury. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, easier said than done for many seniors, Macfury. Paix, mon ami.


Yes, there are many needy seniors--and many not-needy seniors.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Yes, there are many needy seniors--and many not-needy seniors.


True. This is why public support should go to those truly in need, and not to those, like you and me, who will have our own support system in place once we retire.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> True. This is why public support should go to those truly in need, and not to those, like you and me, who will have our own support system in place once we retire.


Exactly. This is why I found that cartoon so offensive. The seniors are depicted as having no wherewithal at all. They're just waiting for a hand-out because they're seniors, not because of any particular need.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Exactly. This is why I found that cartoon so offensive. The seniors are depicted as having no wherewithal at all. They're just waiting for a hand-out because they're seniors, not because of any particular need.


I did not read that into the political cartoon, Macfury. I see your point, but I feel that I know that in my mother's case, she used a walker and was dependent upon her social security check and medicare. She lived right on the edge and was dependent upon me to provide her with the little extra that she might need at certain times of the years. Still, she raged right up until the end of her life.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Do not go gentle into that good night,
> Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
> Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
> Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
> Because their words had forked no lightning they
> Do not go gentle into that good night.
> 
> Dylan Thomas


I've always loved that one by him.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I did not read that into the political cartoon, Macfury. I see your point, but I feel that I know that in my mother's case, she used a walker and was dependent upon her social security check and medicare. She lived right on the edge and was dependent upon me to provide her with the little extra that she might need at certain times of the years. Still, she raged right up until the end of her life.


I didn't either. I'm not really sure why we should be insulting our seniors, who after having worked all their lives depend on the benefits they need, and rightly deserve.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> True. This is why public support should go to those truly in need, and not to those, like you and me, who will have our own support system in place once we retire.


For me I don't see the particular harm in supplying everyone with OAS and then removing it from the seniors who may be able to survive without it.

What is the overarching harm in that system? The overarching good of the system is that the seniors who do benefit from the program are not embarrassed nor stigmatized as "needy" for receiving the payment.

Why some are so out of joint over this program is beyond me. If someone has not been able to earn enough to have a tax rate to pay a great deal or any taxes and is prevented from working because of infirmity, disability or age should these people be forced to the streets to collect alms?

Seems to me in a wealthy society like ours we should construct public policy to provide dignity and security to all of our citizens.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I've always loved that one by him.


Me too, gt. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I didn't either. I'm not really sure why we should be insulting our seniors, who after having worked all their lives depend on the benefits they need, and rightly deserve.


Agreed.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> For me I don't see the particular harm in supplying everyone with OAS and then removing it from the seniors who may be able to survive without it.
> 
> What is the overarching harm in that system? The overarching good of the system is that the seniors who do benefit from the program are not embarrassed nor stigmatized as "needy" for receiving the payment.
> 
> Why some are so out of joint over this program is beyond me. If someone has not been able to earn enough to have a tax rate to pay a great deal or any taxes and is prevented from working because of infirmity, disability or age should these people be forced to the streets to collect alms?
> 
> Seems to me in a wealthy society like ours we should construct public policy to provide dignity and security to all of our citizens.


True. I am going on the assumption that I shall receive CPP and have it "clawed back" in taxes, so I get nothing. It would be nice to get this extra money each month, but there are others in far greater need of this money than I, and I would rather see it go to them. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> ...
> 
> Why some are so out of joint over this program is beyond me. If someone has not been able to earn enough to have a tax rate to pay a great deal or any taxes and is prevented from working because of infirmity, disability or age should these people be forced to the streets to collect alms?


I believe that MFs preferred solution would be euthanasia or perhaps the ice floes.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - SUN news squirming under spotlight*

Network squirms under spotlight

They deserve the attention.

Brought to you by JNN - "Chit it could be fun in Beijing this week"


----------



## groovetube

The real state broadcaster. Yes that sums these fools up quite nicely. 

It's kinda funny, to see the same kind of thing spouted by right wing bloggers and supporters put on tv, only to watch it crash and burn. Perhaps they should just return to the blogosphere where that sort of nonsense might work.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> I believe that MFs preferred solution would be euthanasia or perhaps the ice floes.


I think it may be a sort of "no blood or anything" kind of thing.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I believe that MFs preferred solution would be euthanasia or perhaps the ice floes.


Seriously--that puts seniors back in the helpless category, stuck between death and government assistance. Humiliating portrayal!


----------



## groovetube

it wasn't eMacMan who put them in that category. You did.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> The real state broadcaster. Yes that sums these fools up quite nicely.


It was only a matter of time before the Cons' astroturf campaign tripped over their own feet. Unfortunately, there's so little support for investigative journalism these days that we'll probably never hear about the trail of money linking Sun News to the PC party.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It was only a matter of time before the Cons' astroturf campaign tripped over their own feet. Unfortunately, there's so little support for investigative journalism these days that we'll probably never hear about the trail of money linking Sun News to the PC party.


Maybe even because there is no financial link. That's a pretty embarrassing assertion for someone in the sciences to make, given lack of proof.


----------



## groovetube

Is this how there was no link between the "grassroots" ethical oil campaign and the conservative party?

ha ha people will believe anything I guess. I recall when StunTv screeched about taxpayers dollars going to the cbc until it was discovered a half billion went to Quebecor.

A complete mouthpiece for the conservative party of Canada, and, there's no link... :lmao:


----------



## jimbotelecom

Laughable indeed.

Here's a repost of an earlier posted article outlining CON connections to SUN and others -

Emma Pullman | Friends with Benefits: The Harper Government, EthicalOil.org and Sun Media Connection


----------



## CubaMark

*So - any of you looking forward to the Conservatives reopening (via backbencher proxy) the whole abortion issue? *

Stephen Woodworth: Conservative MP Files Motion Aimed At Reopening Abortion Debate



> A Conservative MP is proposing a roundabout way of reopening the abortion debate, despite the Harper government's insistence that it has no plans to engage in the conversation.
> 
> Stephen Woodworth, the Tory MP for Kitchener Centre, said he believes it is unacceptable — “illegitimate and wrong” — for Canada to have a law that doesn’t recognize a "child” as a human being before the moment of “complete birth.”





> The Conservative government, mindful of responses from opposition parties and Canadians, was swift to issue a press release stating it has no plans to reopen the contentious debate.
> 
> "Private Members motions are considered in accordance with the rules of Parliament. The Prime Minister has been very clear, our Government will not reopen this debate,” Justice Minister Rob Nicholson stated in a press release in reaction to Woodworth’s motion.


(Huffington Post Canada)


----------



## SINC

There are idiots in every party. Sadly Kitchener is saddled with one of them.


----------



## kps

Harper has indicated that he's not interested in re-openning the abortion issue...let's see if he keeps his word. I think he will...if he wants even a remote a chance at re-election.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Harper has indicated that he's not interested in re-openning the abortion issue...let's see if he keeps his word. I think he will...if he wants even a remote a chance at re-election.


Harper may be a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them.... I have a hunch he'll keep his word on this.


----------



## groovetube

I think he will this majority around. Gloves off in the second should he get it.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Harper may be a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them.... I have a hunch he'll keep his word on this.


I have to agree, he'll rein in that silly backbencher in the end. Nothing will come of it.


----------



## MacGuiver

Although 80% of Canadians are ignorant of this fact, we have absolutely no laws prohibiting abortion in this country for any reason or at anytime. That includes killing the baby for the simple fact its a girl.

I shake my head when people get all teary eyed and outraged over some fat seals getting wacked or some puppy left in a car with the windows up yet they have nothing but icy cold indifference to ending the lives of nearly 100,000 unborn humans each year in this country through abortion. 
Recent Polls have shown that the majority of Canadians (59%) feel there should be some restrictions on abortion as pregnancy proceeds. One statistic that stands out is that more women are opposed to abortions after 6 months than men. 63% vs 56% of men. 
This debate is long overdue in this country and its nice to see one MP with the courage and basic human compassion willing to step out from the sheeple in an attempt to right this injustice. If we're sincerely a people for justice, we'll revisit this issue and reevaluate our absence of any laws regarding this issue based on the wealth of knowledge we've gained in recent years to the development of human life. 

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

how many of these late term after 6 month abortions are actually performed?

This is an attempt at restricting abortion altogether, and the religious zealots and their insistence on ramming their beliefs down our throats can shove it. The huge majority of Canadians support choice.

And that, is the way it is.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> how many of these late term after 6 month abortions are actually performed?


I don't know groove, whats an acceptable number to you? You obviously have reservations about late term abortions or you wouldn't have brought it up. Are you OK with it if its only a few dozen, 100, 1000? At that point, does the reason for the abortion matter to you? As it stands right now, it doesn't matter when or why.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I don't know groove, whats an acceptable number to you? You obviously have reservations about late term abortions or you wouldn't have brought it up. Are you OK with it if its only a few dozen, 100, 1000? At that point, does the reason for the abortion matter to you? As it stands right now, it doesn't matter when or why.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


You don't know? The anti choice brigade is girding themselves up for this battle, and you haven't the first clue how many late term abortions are actually performed, if any?

I think you should perhaps go research this, you may be surprised at the findings.

Here's some info: http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/postionpapers/22-Late-term-Abortions.PDF

It doesn't sound like there is any need for this, so it's clear to anyone what the real intention here is.

And, in other, human life news, here's an example of our government, looking out for us.
Health minister nixed plan to limit trans fats in food, records show

Wow, a savings of 5 to 9 billion over 20 years? Well we can see, once again, who's side this government is on.

Of course, the further right brigade will tell us it isn't the government's job to regulate industry, consumers should make their own choices.

That's been working out very well hasn't it.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> You don't know? The anti choice brigade is girding themselves up for this battle, and you haven't the first clue how many late term abortions are actually performed, if any?
> 
> I think you should perhaps go research this, you may be surprised at the findings.


From Wiki:
Canada: During the year 2003, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics.[6]

So if the percentages hold, we kill nearly 800 babies after 20 weeks in this country each year. Of course you already knew this. You're OK with that Groove? 
Even if the majority of Canadians are pro-choice as you claim, the majority of Canadians believe there should be some restrictions on the procedure.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> From Wiki:
> Canada: During the year 2003, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics.[6]
> 
> So if the percentages hold, we kill nearly 800 babies after 20 weeks in this country each year. Of course you already knew this. You're OK with that Groove?
> Even if the majority of Canadians are pro-choice as you claim, the majority of Canadians believe there should be some restrictions on the procedure.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


See, right there, you use the drama thing. We "kill nearly 800 babys".

Did you bother to read the link I provided? You rely on half truths, and misinformation to push your beliefs. 

Why don't you mention why the very late term abortions are performed, such as grave illness and serious risk to the mother for starters. There are many reasons why these may be needed, and it isn't like you can easily get, a late term abortion in Canada if at all, small detail you fail to mention.

It is because of your dishonesty about this issue, that people know, the real intentions behind this.


----------



## eMacMan

As usual the abortion issue is being used as a diversion.

King Harpo is getting ready to commit Canadian Forces to an invasion/occupation of Syria and probably Iran as well. Far better to have Canadians arguing about abortions, than to have them pointing out that Canada is not in the fiscal position to pay for additional mis-adventures in the Middle East.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> See, right there, you use the drama thing. We "kill nearly 800 babys".


Sorry Groove, do you have children? When you're wife felt the first kicks did she get excited and tell you to come feel the moving fetal tissue or did she call it a baby? Just sayin. Our doctor always referred to it as a baby so I'll go with that.




> Did you bother to read the link I provided? You rely on half truths, and misinformation to push your beliefs.


From the abortion lobby? No half truths there I'm sure. 
I'd be opposed to abortion on demand if I were an atheist with a basic grasp of human development and an ounce of compassion for human life.



> Why don't you mention why the very late term abortions are performed, such as grave illness and serious risk to the mother for starters. There are many reasons why these may be needed,


Many people don't want the burden of handy capped children and choose to end their lives, I get that. I don't agree that should give them the right to kill them but you and many others obviously think its OK. But you're still ignoring the fact that a woman can still have that abortion for ANY reason. They may have found out late that this one has a vagina and is unworthy to live. Are you good with that? Even if it were 1 child aborted for the simple fact it was a girl, are you good with that?




> and it isn't like you can easily get, a late term abortion in Canada if at all, small detail you fail to mention.


 If at all? Hundreds of them are performed each year either in this country or in outside it with government funding. Its certainly not legal issues preventing one. What part of that statistic are you not getting?

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## i-rui

this is why the conservatives need 2 parties. there's a definite split between social conservatives and fiscal ones.


----------



## MacGuiver

i-rui said:


> this is why the conservatives need 2 parties. there's a definite split between social conservatives and fiscal ones.


I think you'll find that same split among Liberals and NDP on this issue though I'd guess there are more prolife conservatives. I know quite a few Liberals and even a few NDP that are very prolife or at least unhappy with the absence of any laws restricting abortion.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## jimbotelecom

This will be interesting to watch. There might be one backbencher sponsoring the bill but there are likely several more wackos who support it. Harper has some wacko beliefs too and it could be fun to watch him stifle the wacko fringe. The media will be all over this. In all likelihood Harper will delegate responsibility for the file and keep his hands clean. 

"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good. If a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate."


----------



## Sonal

MacGuiver said:


> I don't know groove, whats an acceptable number to you? You obviously have reservations about late term abortions or you wouldn't have brought it up. Are you OK with it if its only a few dozen, 100, 1000? At that point, does the reason for the abortion matter to you? As it stands right now, it doesn't matter when or why.


When abortion is illegal, unavailable, or otherwise difficult to obtain, women still get abortions that are unsafe and often lead to their death. 

What's an acceptable number of those deaths to you?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*More CON helicopter fun*

Fantino took $5,900 helicopter “demonstration” flight between Ottawa and Petawawa | Ottawa Citizen

Let's see 4 hours in a govt. limo or a $6000 helicopter ride? That's right he took the $6000 helicopter ride.

Brought to you by JNN - "will they ever learn, chit?"


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Sorry Groove, do you have children? When you're wife felt the first kicks did she get excited and tell you to come feel the moving fetal tissue or did she call it a baby? Just sayin. Our doctor always referred to it as a baby so I'll go with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the abortion lobby? No half truths there I'm sure.
> I'd be opposed to abortion on demand if I were an atheist with a basic grasp of human development and an ounce of compassion for human life.
> 
> 
> Many people don't want the burden of handy capped children and choose to end their lives, I get that. I don't agree that should give them the right to kill them but you and many others obviously think its OK. But you're still ignoring the fact that a woman can still have that abortion for ANY reason. They may have found out late that this one has a vagina and is unworthy to live. Are you good with that? Even if it were 1 child aborted for the simple fact it was a girl, are you good with that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If at all? Hundreds of them are performed each year either in this country or in outside it with government funding. Its certainly not legal issues preventing one. What part of that statistic are you not getting?
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


Don't give me the heart tugging crap. It seems that's all you anti abortionists can resort to when faced with the truth. I'm sorry but if there was a real true problem with this, then perhaps people may be sympathetic to your cause. Unfortunately, when anti abortionists are dishonest about the truth, and then resort to the tear jerking crap to cover over their dishonesty, it falls flat.

There is NOT a problem in Canada with late term abortions as you are making it out to be, just look at the facts! But the real truth is, you know very well this isn't the real problem, the real problem is, you don't believe in abortion whatsoever regardless of when it's performed, and you and your fellow believers wish to ram your beliefs down everyone's throat.

Just as when those pesky religious guys come knocking on my door sunday mornings like clockwork, I say, no thanks. And thankfully, I have the right to do so in this country. 

Hopefully, under this new government I'll continue to have this right.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> As usual the abortion issue is being used as a diversion.
> 
> King Harpo is getting ready to commit Canadian Forces to an invasion/occupation of Syria and probably Iran as well. Far better to have Canadians arguing about abortions, than to have them pointing out that Canada is not in the fiscal position to pay for additional mis-adventures in the Middle East.


yes. Look, shiny ball!

It works ever so well.


----------



## MacGuiver

Sonal said:


> When abortion is illegal, unavailable, or otherwise difficult to obtain, women still get abortions that are unsafe and often lead to their death.
> 
> What's an acceptable number of those deaths to you?


I personally don't think its acceptable that any female be snuffed out in the first trimester of life or the 60th. I just don't think taking the life of their unborn child is the solution. The ends don't justify the means. 

Are you content with abortion for any reason at any time? A vagina is considered a birth defect in many cultures and many of those cultures call this country home. Are you OK with that choice? Surely you must have some point where you think abortion isn't justified or moral?

Arguments for abortion without limits make about as much sense as claiming it must be legal to shoot the paper boy on your doorstep in order to protect the right to shoot the home intruder since both have trespassed on your property.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## jimbotelecom

*It's official CONS advocate torture*

CSIS may use intelligence derived from torture, Toews says - Politics - CBC News

Tisk tisk. 

Brought to you by JNN - "4 more years of this"


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I personally don't think its acceptable that any female be snuffed out in the first trimester of life or the 60th. I just don't think taking the life of their unborn child is the solution. The ends don't justify the means.
> 
> Are you content with abortion for any reason at any time? A vagina is considered a birth defect in many cultures and many of those cultures call this country home. Are you OK with that choice? Surely you must have some point where you think abortion isn't justified or moral?
> 
> Arguments for abortion without limits make about as much sense as claiming it must be legal to shoot the paper boy on your doorstep in order to protect the right to shoot the home intruder since both have trespassed on your property.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


nice way to skirt the question, completely ignore the point brought up, and return to being completely dishonest.

Once again, this is why people who spout this are not taken seriously in a real discussion. When you can stop with the dishonesty, then perhaps anti abortionists could be taken seriously without suspicion.

One has to wonder why someone skirts over the real issues, and frames things in a dishonest way.


----------



## mrjimmy

Perhaps the abortion issue should poison the well of another thread. The Religious Thread perhaps? That way at least we can keep it from mingling with affairs of the state.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> nice way to skirt the question, completely ignore the point brought up, and return to being completely dishonest.
> 
> Once again, this is why people who spout this are not taken seriously in a real discussion. When you can stop with the dishonesty, then perhaps anti abortionists could be taken seriously without suspicion.
> 
> One has to wonder why someone skirts over the real issues, and frames things in a dishonest way.


You're absolutely right Groove. Good advice. It is pointless to discuss this issue with you further since you've aptly demonstrated your ability to do just what you criticize above.


----------



## groovetube

it's like the energizer bunny. Keep spinning facts dishonestly and ignore clear questions. 

Rinse and repeat. Sums up the anti abortionists pretty much right there, and why they're rarely taken seriously. And yes, let's see the issue moved to the religious thread.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> it's like the energizer bunny. Keep spinning facts dishonestly and ignore clear questions.
> 
> Rinse and repeat. Sums up the anti abortionists pretty much right there, and why they're rarely taken seriously. And yes, let's see the issue moved to the religious thread.


I tire of your constant calling down and claiming a person is dishonest. He is honestly stating his opinion, no less, no more. Either discuss the merits of one or the other or just drop it. Your holier than thou attitude on the issue is as sickening as those who totally oppose abortion.


----------



## groovetube

there was nothing honest, about stating that we are "killing 800 babies".

I tire of anyone, who would defend a liar.


----------



## SINC

Liars exist on both sides. Care to give the exact details of those 800 babies deaths? Do you personally know the circumstances? Some would say if you don't, you could be called a liar.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Liars exist on both sides. Care to give the exact details of those 800 babies deaths? Do you personally know the circumstances? Some would say if you don't, you could be called a liar.


READ THE INFORMATION POSTED. 

Sinc, allow me to speak slowly.

He stated that all late term abortions were "killing 800 babies". This is not true. When the if anyone whats to find the facts (in fact I posted a link to some) the majority of late term abortions are for medical reasons, including grave risk to the mother amongst others.

To turn around and state something not true, knowingly, is a LIE.

In case you are further confused here. Feel free to research it further if you dislike the link.



> Late-term Abortion in Canada
> 
> Many anti-choice and misinformed individuals would have Canadians believe that a woman in Canada can access abortion services at any point during the nine months of pregnancy. This belief is hugely inaccurate and serves only to appeal to the emotional response of people in trying to prevent the acceptance of abortion as a critical reproductive health service. In Canada, a woman cannot have an elective abortion past 24 weeks gestation. There are simply no doctors and no facilities that will allow for an elective termination at that point. In fact, there are only a few doctors in the entire country who are willing to perform abortions past 20 weeks. As there are different methods of abortion, each woman’s pregnancy is individually assessed by a doctor to help decide which method is safest and best for her. However, since abortion services after 20 weeks are not easily available in Canada, many women who seek an abortion at this point must either travel to another province or to the United States, or must continue to carry the pregnancy to term.
> 
> Despite what some may believe about the availability of late-term abortion services in Canada, Statistics Canada has reported that less than 1% of abortions take place past 20 weeks gestation.[1] The fact remains that nearly 90% of abortions in Canada take place before 13 weeks gestation. The belief that a woman makes the choice to have an abortion easily and without giving it much thought is especially inaccurate in instances of late-term abortion. Many women who have an abortion after 20 weeks originally wanted to have a child, but chose to have an abortion after discovering that her foetus was severely or fatally impaired, or upon the discovery that her own health or life is endangered. Other women need to access abortion services past 20 weeks because of extremely long wait-times or, especially in the case of young teenagers, because they were either not aware that they were pregnant or were in denial about being pregnant until the symptoms were no longer unavoidable. Whatever the reason a woman seeks to have an abortion past 20 weeks gestation, Canadians must know: abortion services in Canada are not uniformly accessible and late-term abortions are much more rare and difficult to access than abortions that take place within the first trimester of pregnancy.


http://www.canadiansforchoice.ca/hottopic01.html

For someone so concerned about abortion, you would think they would have a little more information and can answer simple questions. But all we get, are emotional crap and LIES.

Spare me.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> READ THE INFORMATION POSTED.
> 
> Sinc, allow me to speak slowly.
> Spare me.


Right you are GT, you know-it-all. You have all the details in a single link and sit in judgement of everyone else without fear of ever being even remotely wrong. Spare me is right.


----------



## groovetube

Feel free to show otherwise, or you're merely picking a fight outside of the topic.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Feel free to show otherwise, or you're merely picking a fight outside of the topic.


Not a chance, it was YOU who claimed to know he was lying. Prove it in all 800 circumstances or drop it.


----------



## groovetube

I did. Twice. Shall i do it three times? Anyone who claims to be concerned about abortion would know the facts, (and in fact they were posted) and then says the late term abortions are all 'killing babies" is simply not telling the truth.

Now unless you can join the topic at hand, you're merely picking a fight.

I've posted the information, feel free to show otherwise.

I think there's a saying that would sum that up.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I did. Twice. Shall i do it three times? Anyone who claims to be concerned about abortion would know the facts, (and in fact they were posted) and then says the late term abortions are all 'killing babies" is simply not telling the truth.
> 
> Now unless you can join the topic at hand, you're merely picking a fight.
> 
> I've posted the information, feel free to show otherwise.
> 
> I think there's a saying that would sum that up.


You cannot state anyone is lying with any certainty is my point. Too many individual cases for that to be possible. To outright state someone is a liar on something you know nothing about is just wrong. You could be called a liar yourself based on your lack of personal knowledge on each individual case.


----------



## MacGuiver

SINC said:


> Not a chance, it was YOU who claimed to know he was lying. Prove it in all 800 circumstances or drop it.


Hi Sinc

I'd press my case further with him but I've seen Groove in action on these boards enough to know an inevitable circular argument would ensue that would go on for days arguing about everything but the issue at hand. He'd accuse me of doing exactly what he's doing and it would go on and on. I'll save my breath.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

The likelihood is quite strong. When someone pearly insinuates all late term abortions were elective and are killing. Annie's on top of it with clear evidence to the contrary, I'd say it's a good bet.

I'm sure we'll be treated soon enough to more, twisted half truths that insinuate conclusions that are not true at all.

That's the tactics of these anti abortionists. That's why you'll notice that he did not answer any direct questions posed. That's a clear sign.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The likelihood is quite strong. When someone pearly insinuates all late term abortions were elective and are killing. Annie's on top of it with clear evidence to the contrary, I'd say it's a good bet.
> 
> I'm sure we'll be treated soon enough to more, twisted half truths that insinuate conclusions that are not true at all.
> 
> That's the tactics of these anti abortionists. That's why you'll notice that he did not answer any direct questions posed. That's a clear sign.


And you think I believe your tactics as a pro abortionist are pure? Bull chit.


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Hi Sinc
> 
> I'd press my case further with him but I've seen Groove in action on these boards enough to know an inevitable circular argument would ensue that would go on for days arguing about everything but the issue at hand. He'd accuse me of doing exactly what he's doing and it would go on and on. I'll save my breath.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


I caught you in a lie. You insinuated all late term abortions were elective. Hence as you put it " killing babies" you know full well this is not true.

And you refused to address any questions. I've seen how you operate, and that is to be dishonest.

If there -were- any issues surrounding late term abortions, why would Anyone take your half truths as any basis for a real discussion?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And you think I believe your tactics as a pro abortionist are pure? Bull chit.


This is the last time I will say this to you.

Either put up and offer factual information or take your fight and squat on your spurs.:lmao:

Capice? It may be more than the half truth anti abortionist offered.

I don't think is too much to ask. I'm done until the half truths and girlie punches are done.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> This is the last time I will say this to you.
> 
> Either put up and offer factual information or take your fight and squat on your spurs.:lmao:
> 
> Capice? It may be more than the half truth anti abortionist offered.
> 
> I don't think is too much to ask. I'm done until the half truths and girlie punches are done.


That's great, I was getting tired of you tweaking the truth to your personal preference by calling others liars.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> That's great, I was getting tired of you tweaking the truth to your personal preference by calling others liars.


Honestly Sinc, if the late term thing was truly a real problem, I'd say it was something to consider. But to me, you have to consider the source. When they start twisting things to suit their fight against abortion in it's entirety, they'll get nowhere. People easily see it for what it is.

The facts are there clear to see.

Any, this topic, to the religious thread.

Carry on poli discussion.


----------



## kps

Boyz, boyz...all this time I thought the abortion debate was over and done with more than 40 years ago. Even good old Harper doesn't want to touch it. 

I don't like it all that much either, but I'm pro choice because it's the right thing to do for many women and even families.


----------



## SINC

kps said:


> Boyz, boyz...all this time I thought the abortion debate was over and done with more than 40 years ago. Even good old Harper doesn't want to touch it.
> 
> I don't like it all that much either, but I'm pro choice because it's the right thing to do for many women and even families.


I'm with you kps, it's been over a long time, but I disapprove of calling people liars when they don't support your views. That isn't an argument for discussion. It's just flat ass wrong.


----------



## MacGuiver

OK I'll play one round with ya Groove because your full of crap and obviously having reading comprehension issues.

This is exactly what I said:



> From Wiki:
> Canada: During the year 2003, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics.[6]
> 
> So if the percentages hold, we kill nearly 800 babies after 20 weeks in this country each year.


So from that you fabricate this:



groovetube said:


> I caught you in a lie. You insinuated all late term abortions were elective. Hence as you put it " killing babies" you know full well this is not true.


*First the lie:*
The statistics on Wiki claim 0.8% are aborted after 20 weeks (which is considered viable)
with about 100,000 abortions per year that is about 800 abortions. So my number is sound.
*Second, the fabricated "elective" insinuation:*
Where I said anything about "elective" in that statement is mystery to me. You're simply BSing.

*and finally the issue with me calling them babies:*
The fact I called them babies rattled you but I explained why my use of that word is perfectly normal. Sorry but I don't subscribe to the dehumanizing lingo of the pro-aborts. Do you seriously think a 20+ week pregnant woman say "Honey, come feel the fetus, its kicking! "

Who's full of crap now?

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## CubaMark

I may regret wading in here... the sniping has become a bit much.

Those who want to discuss the moral aspects of abortion, feel free to go to the Religious thread. But this is being raised as a political matter in Canada, hence it is relevant to this thread.

I am far from an authority on the subject, nor do I have any great interest in the tit-for-tat. But I will say that *MacGuiver* has delivered an _emotional_ argument whereas *groovetube* has attempted to address _factual_ matters. He is correct that the appeal to emotion is a tactic employed (quite successfully) by the anti-abortionist lobby. My own (admittedly limited) reading of the matter is that late-term abortions are quite rare in Canada, and from what I have been able to quickly access, are in most (if not all?) cases done for entirely legitimate medical reasons.

From the site linked by GT above (emphasis mine):



> Late term abortions are rare. *Only 0.4% take place after 20 weeks gestation*. Late term abortions are performed when the fetus is gravely or fatally impaired or the woman’s life or physical health is at risk. The efforts of anti-abortion activists to ban late term abortions does not consider the health and well-being of either the fetus or the woman. A ban on late term abortions would infringe on a woman’s constitutional right to the security of person and must not be allowed.
> 
> The term “partial birth abortion” is not a recognized medical term. It was coined by the anti-choice movement. It is not used by the medical profession and has never appeared in a medical journal. This term should not be confused with intact dilation and extraction (D & X), *a rarely used procedure reserved for late-second term and third-trimester abortions where the fetus is dying, malformed, or threatening the woman’s health or life.*


(Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada)

MacGuiver had earlier cited a statistic that 0.8% of the 97,500 (approx) abortions are late-term. The source above says it's half of that, so we're down to about 400. What percentage of those are entirely based on medical necessity? I don't have ready access to that information. But the percentage is so minute that I can easily believe that it represents abortions performed for legitimate reasons.

The issue of cultural dynamics coming into play with abortion and sex-selection: these are very real, particularly (but not exclusively) among the East Indian and Chinese populations. Is it more effective to take the social conservative approach and make abortion illegal (typically in blanket format, without exceptions for true medical necessity) that has the demonstrable effect of pushing women to have unsafe procedures performed, or to put the effort into policy and education in an attempt to change cultural perspectives?

The wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth approach rarely wins converts. As a social scientist, I prefer an approach to the issue that is less heavy-handed and more proactive / preventive. I strongly would oppose any attempt to outright ban late-term abortions for the simple fact that there are legitimate medical reasons for doing the procedure.

I most certainly oppose the hard-right-wing stance, perhaps best embodied in the words of that ignoramus Rick Santorum (one of the candidates to be the GOP selection to challenge Obama as President of the USA) when he called pregnancy resulting from rape a "gift from God" and that rape victims should "make the best of it". Let's hope the official political right-wing in Canada never attains that level of stupidity.


----------



## SINC

An excellent summation CM and I am in complete agreement with your observations. What I appreciate most is not sinking to the level of calling either side liars, which raised my ire. Thanks for a well thought out and logical post.


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> OK I'll play one round with ya Groove because your full of crap and obviously having reading comprehension issues.
> 
> This is exactly what I said:
> 
> 
> 
> So from that you fabricate this:
> 
> 
> 
> *First the lie:*
> The statistics on Wiki claim 0.8% are aborted after 20 weeks (which is considered viable)
> with about 100,000 abortions per year that is about 800 abortions. So my number is sound.
> *Second, the fabricated "elective" insinuation:*
> Where I said anything about "elective" in that statement is mystery to me. You're simply BSing.
> 
> *and finally the issue with me calling them babies:*
> The fact I called them babies rattled you but I explained why my use of that word is perfectly normal. Sorry but I don't subscribe to the dehumanizing lingo of the pro-aborts. Do you seriously think a 20+ week pregnant woman say "Honey, come feel the fetus, its kicking! "
> 
> Who's full of crap now?
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


You LIED sir. You know full well what the facts are, and yet you continue to misrepresent the facts knowingly and continually defend your reprehensible behaviour by further twisting the facts. This seems to be the methods of the anti abortionists, and I will not stand for your BS.

You took the number of late term abortions and very clearly stated that this was and I quote "killing 800 babies". Full stop. This is MORE than a clear insinuation that the abortions were indeed elective and not due to medical reasons. This is a bald faced LIE and you know it. You know full well the policies here and how difficult it actually is to get a late term abortion, and that the majority are performed due to medical reasons, NOT KILLING BABIES. How disgusting could you possibly get. Would you go and knock on the doors of the women who would have lost their lives due to childbirth or other serious medical reasons and tell them they killed their baby? I bet you would wouldn't you. So choose your words carefully before you start going out there mouthing off with lies.

This is why the majority of Canadians support choice, because all one has to do is listen to anti abortionists like you for a few minutes to hear the dishonesty and it's clear, the shaky ground you stand on.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> I may regret wading in here... the sniping has become a bit much.
> 
> Those who want to discuss the moral aspects of abortion, feel free to go to the Religious thread. But this is being raised as a political matter in Canada, hence it is relevant to this thread.
> 
> I am far from an authority on the subject, nor do I have any great interest in the tit-for-tat. But I will say that *MacGuiver* has delivered an _emotional_ argument whereas *groovetube* has attempted to address _factual_ matters. He is correct that the appeal to emotion is a tactic employed (quite successfully) by the anti-abortionist lobby. My own (admittedly limited) reading of the matter is that late-term abortions are quite rare in Canada, and from what I have been able to quickly access, are in most (if not all?) cases done for entirely legitimate medical reasons.
> 
> From the site linked by GT above (emphasis mine):
> 
> 
> (Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada)
> 
> MacGuiver had earlier cited a statistic that 0.8% of the 97,500 (approx) abortions are late-term. The source above says it's half of that, so we're down to about 400. What percentage of those are entirely based on medical necessity? I don't have ready access to that information. But the percentage is so minute that I can easily believe that it represents abortions performed for legitimate reasons.
> 
> The issue of cultural dynamics coming into play with abortion and sex-selection: these are very real, particularly (but not exclusively) among the East Indian and Chinese populations. Is it more effective to take the social conservative approach and make abortion illegal (typically in blanket format, without exceptions for true medical necessity) that has the demonstrable effect of pushing women to have unsafe procedures performed, or to put the effort into policy and education in an attempt to change cultural perspectives?
> 
> The wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth approach rarely wins converts. As a social scientist, I prefer an approach to the issue that is less heavy-handed and more proactive / preventive. I strongly would oppose any attempt to outright ban late-term abortions for the simple fact that there are legitimate medical reasons for doing the procedure.
> 
> I most certainly oppose the hard-right-wing stance, perhaps best embodied in the words of that ignoramus Rick Santorum (one of the candidates to be the GOP selection to challenge Obama as President of the USA) when he called pregnancy resulting from rape a "gift from God" and that rape victims should "make the best of it". Let's hope the official political right-wing in Canada never attains that level of stupidity.


Yes. I had already posted the facts, yet they were not only ignored, but further twisted. He declared those late term abortions as "killing 800 babies". I can't believe how low these people will stoop.


----------



## mrjimmy

CubaMark said:


> Those who want to discuss the moral aspects of abortion, feel free to go to the Religious thread. But this is being raised as a political matter in Canada, hence it is relevant to this thread.


A moral issue thinly disguising itself as a political issue. 

Perhaps we can create a new thread, we could call it the 'Incessant, never ending pointless argument thread' or something like that...


----------



## groovetube

One of the problems with even beginning to discuss abortion, is the anti side refuses to stay within the the facts, and feels that since their beliefs are one way, that everyone, regardless of religion, etc should adhere to their belief systems. I think anyone can see the lengths they'll go to to twist the facts, and it's happening right now, within our political system. Stephen Harper promised not to open the abortion debate, but he knows full well that members of his party will try, and certainly this can be seen as a precursor to more to come. It ma be stupid for Harper to go back on his word -now-, but what's the harm in being complicit in a campaign of misinformation and lies to build support for some changes down the road? We've seen the sorts of decisions this government can make, short sighted costly blunders that merely placate the lunatic fringe, the lunatic fringe that grew larger because, fear campaigns, even though they have little to do with facts and rational thinking are very effective in growing support for the the policies pushed and demanded by the far right religious groups.

These must, be met head on and challenged every step of the way. The lies and fear mongering has to be stopped. I'm sorry to everyone for going off here. But it really angers me to see the sort of dishonesty being pushed as facts, that could have very serious ramifications on people's lives. It's very important.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ... that could have very serious ramifications on people's lives. It's very important.


Forgetting about the lives of babies, of course.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The lies and fear mongering has to be stopped. I'm sorry to everyone for going off here. But it really angers me to see the sort of dishonesty being pushed as facts, that could have very serious ramifications on people's lives. It's very important.


Why not drop the accusations of lying and counter your argument with the facts as you know them? Calling people liars is hyperbole and nothing more and adds exactly zero to the discussion.


----------



## groovetube

Sinc, for the forth time, they were linked to and shown. And others have as well.

When someone knowingly misrepresents the truth, it's lying.


----------



## eMacMan

Still calling smokescreen. The Fiberals would trot out gun control to divert the public eye. When the cons are trying to slip one over on us they use abortion. Perhaps we should be talking about C-11 instead?

For what it's worth I will note the glaring irony of the Anti-Abortionist crowd gleefully supporting the Bush Wars, and the resultant slaughter of hundreds of thousands citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes that does include a lot of women and children and babies.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Sinc, for the forth time, they were linked to and shown. And others have as well.
> 
> When someone knowingly misrepresents the truth, it's lying.


All you do is inflame the situation by using the term liars and lying. It is possible you know, that some people believe what they present as truth and do not intentionally lie. You just cannot seem to get your mind around how inflammatory you really are when you could tone it down and get your point across. I guess you are beyond seeing that at all and have no wish to debate or discuss, just name call.


----------



## bryanc

I'm always perplexed at the difficulty people seem to have with the abortion issue from a philosophical (moral/ethical) perspective. Philosophically this seems to be a trivial problem (I fully realize that the pragmatic and emotional aspects of specific cases may make the decision agonizingly difficult, but this is not due to philosophical complexity).

There are two agents to consider; the mother and the embryo/foetus (the ethical agency of the embryo is arguable, and many people, including myself, would argue that a developing embryo goes from having essentially no ethical value to having the value of a human infant in a progressive way, rather than at some arbitrary moment during its ontogeny, but that's a different topic). While we may argue the at the embryo has ethical value, it cannot have any greater value than the mother, nor can it have rights, as rights are social constructs that derive from membership in a given society.

Furthermore, even if we came up with some torturous reasoning to provide the foetus with the same rights as the mother, we cannot, as a society, legally require one individual to metabolically support another. Just like we may admire and encourage people to donate blood, we cannot legally require anyone to do so. So while we may admire and support pregnant women, because the foetus is biologically dependent on the mother, it's continued existence is entirely her choice. Maintaining a pregnancy is ethically identical to giving blood, or donating other biological support to another individual.

While we may find it morally repugnant that a mother would choose to terminate a pregnancy for reasons we disagree with, it is far more morally repugnant for a society to legally require individuals to host unwelcome guests in their body.


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> Still calling smokescreen...Perhaps we should be talking about C-11 instead?


Yes, I think if Harper really didn't want Woodworth chumming the waters, he'd have been muzzled by now.



> For what it's worth I will note the glaring irony of the Anti-Abortionist crowd gleefully supporting the Bush Wars, and the resultant slaughter of hundreds of thousands citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes that does includes a lot of women and children and babies.


Yeah, but they're not good white Christian babies...


----------



## chasMac

eMacMan said:


> For what it's worth I will note the glaring irony of the Anti-Abortionist crowd gleefully supporting the Bush Wars, and the resultant slaughter of hundreds of thousands citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes that does includes a lot of women and children and babies.


You read this somewhere? Seems to me your painting with a fairly wide brush there.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> All you do is inflame the situation by using the term liars and lying. It is possible you know, that some people believe what they present as truth and do not intentionally lie. You just cannot seem to get your mind around how inflammatory you really are when you could tone it down and get your point across. I guess you are beyond seeing that at all and have no wish to debate or discuss, just name call.


Yes Sinc. You're right. I won't use the term lying. I will not apologize for pointing out the dishonesty. Knowingly, be dishonest, when all the facts are there to see for anyone.

But I will say, it's not as inflammatory, as accusing the women who needed abortions for medical reasons, including one's life.

Consider the ramifications. Have a look here, where the lunatic religious right, would like to see doctors, being able to withhold medical information, if they want to prevent an abortion:
Kansas Abortion Bill Would Impose Sweeping Restrictions

I would assume even the rugged individualists who believe in rights and freedoms, would not be happy that they no longer have the right to choose between saving their spouse's life, vs saving the fetus.

Yeah. This is where it can go. And we all know what Santorum had to say regarding rape regarding abortions.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Yes Sinc. You're right. I won't use the term lying. I will not apologize for pointing out the dishonesty. Knowingly, be dishonest, when all the facts are there to see for anyone.
> 
> But I will say, it's not as inflammatory, as accusing the women who needed abortions for medical reasons, including one's life.
> 
> Consider the ramifications. Have a look here, where the lunatic religious right, would like to see doctors, being able to withhold medical information, if they want to prevent an abortion:
> Kansas Abortion Bill Would Impose Sweeping Restrictions
> 
> I would assume even the rugged individualists who believe in rights and freedoms, would not be happy that they no longer have the right to choose between saving their spouse's life, vs saving the fetus.
> 
> Yeah. This is where it can go. And we all know what Santorum had to say regarding rape regarding abortions.


Good post groove, and for the record I agree 100% that the legal termination of a pregnancy be the woman's decision in consultation with her physician. I have read the religious right's warped view enough times to know just how wrong people can be.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> ...
> For what it's worth I will note the glaring irony of the Anti-Abortionist crowd gleefully supporting the Bush Wars, and the resultant slaughter of hundreds of thousands citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes that does include a lot of women and children and babies.





chasMac said:


> You read this somewhere? Seems to me your painting with a fairly wide brush there.


For the life of me, with the possible exception of the Amish, I cannot recall a single instance of an anti-abortionist group condemning the slaughter of civilians in any of the Middle East conflicts. 

If they had they had, they could then be legitimately called pro-life. In the meantime they will have to carry the handle of hypocrite.


----------



## chasMac

eMacMan said:


> For the life of me, with the possible exception of the Amish, I cannot recall a single instance of an anti-abortionist group condemning the slaughter of civilians in any of the Middle East conflicts.
> 
> If they had they had, they could then be legitimately called pro-life. In the meantime they will have to carry the handle of hypocrite.


Aw, now your just playing dumb. Similarly, I cannot recall pro-life, anti-abortionist groups ever getting all riled up about fighting cancer, ALS, or any other terminal illness never do they muster their forces to jog in Run for the Cure events. I would say then, only then might they call themselves pro-life.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Yawn. HARPER not driven by reality*

Harper driven by libertarian ideology, not reality - Winnipeg Free Press

Brought to you by JNN - "helping to fuel the fire since 2011"


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper driven by libertarian ideology, not reality - Winnipeg Free Press





> It also defined a narrow role for government. Its purpose is solely "to protect the lives and property of its citizens, ensure equality of opportunity, foster an environment where individuals and private initiative can prosper, ensure the security of our nation's borders and provide services to Canadians that cannot be provided more efficiently and effectively by individuals or the private sector."


I can only hope that Harper follows through on this.


----------



## MacGuiver

eMacMan said:


> For the life of me, with the possible exception of the Amish, I cannot recall a single instance of an anti-abortionist group condemning the slaughter of civilians in any of the Middle East conflicts.
> 
> If they had they had, they could then be legitimately called pro-life. In the meantime they will have to carry the handle of hypocrite.


Here is what the leader of over a billion Christians on earth had to say about Iraq.



> Pope John Paul condemned on Monday a possible war in Iraq, saying it could still be avoided and that it would be a defeat for humanity.
> He made clear his opposition in his yearly "State of the World" address to diplomats accredited to the Vatican.
> "No to war! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity," he said.
> "And what are we to say of the threat of a war which could strike Iraq, the land of the Prophets, a people already sorely tried by more than 12 years of embargo?," he said.
> "War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations."
> He said international law and diplomacy were the only worthy means to resolve differences.
> "As the Charter of the United Nations organisation and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations," he said.
> The pope said he had been struck recently by a "feeling of fear" in the hearts of people. He said the world was threatened not only by war but also by "an insidious terrorism capable of striking at any time and anywhere."
> "Yet everything can change. It depends on each of us," he said.
> 
> Read more: Pope condemns Iraq war proposal | Mail Online


I can't vouch for what other denominations were saying, no doubt some supported it, but your broad brush swipe at Christianity betrays your bigotry or ignorance.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I can only hope that Harper follows through on this.


I'd be pleasantly surprised. But I don't hold much hope for the Cons doing anything that does not serve to enrich their backers.


----------



## groovetube

yeah now why wasn't martin forthcoming about this information. Damn liberals.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> yeah now why wasn't martin forthcoming about this information. Damn liberals.


Nice find GT. Although I'm sure the Martin team studied the possibilities.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> yeah now why wasn't martin forthcoming about this information. Damn liberals.


Martin may have been right to do it and politics being what they are, opposition parties usually oppose. Sorta like when Chretien was going to abolish that nasty conservative GST. The Liberal party has since become its greatest protectors.

Finding politicians condemn a proposal one day and endorsing it the next is like shooting fish in a barrel.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Seniors protest CONS con job*

Buckdog: Seniors Occupy Conservative MP Offices To Protest Changes To OAS Eligibilty

Brought to you by JNN - "bringing you up to date information since 2011"


----------



## groovetube

Harper relaxes accountability rules for China’s use of uranium - The Globe and Mail

Hey the west wanted in, and now it's all about selling the kitchen sink, including millions of pounds of more Uranium to China. Assuring s it'll only ever be used for civilian purposes of course. 

I am a little curious, with all the wheeling and dealing going on, is there anything happening for Ontario? Is there something I've missed. Because, afterall, Ontario gave Harper his majority, so, we're going to want a return on that pretty soon.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I am a little curious, with all the wheeling and dealing going on, is there anything happening for Ontario? Is there something I've missed. Because, afterall, Ontario gave Harper his majority, so, we're going to want a return on that pretty soon.


Here's your answer:

Canada News: 2011 Canada census: Growth out west outpacing Ontario - thestar.com


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Here's your answer:
> 
> Canada News: 2011 Canada census: Growth out west outpacing Ontario - thestar.com


Yeah I saw that. I don't begrudge the growth the west, namely alberta is seeing. I wouldn't say Toronto is hurting, but I have to wonder, at what point does Ontario say, wait a second here.

I know the knee jerk reaction would be to blame McGuinty, and my theory has been that's partly why Hudak body slammed in the last election, but I think it's delusional to heap blame on McGuinty and say it's his fault the national growth figures are what they are. He just, isn't -that- powerful...


----------



## Macfury

SINC: McGuinty is one of the main reasons that the national economic growth figures are low. Ontario used to lead the country, and now it's holding it back. Perhaps Harper can get the Chinese to throw in some welfare for Ontario on his next trip.


----------



## groovetube

Hah. Seems I called that one pretty well eh.

SINC: see there's one who thinks McGuinty is so all powerful he controls the economic growth of the whole country!

I'm no fan of McGuinty, never was from the day he became leader of the provincial liberals. But I guess the sheeple will buy into anything really.


----------



## MacGuiver

McGuinty is doing his best to chase industry out of the province with his hyper expensive and unnecessary green energy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that paying 80 cents a kw (for 20 year contracts) for something our existing facilities can produce for 6 or 7 cents a kw isn't the brightest idea. Not only are we paying these insane rates to feel all green and fuzzy, we're then forced to pay other provinces and states millions to take our surplus electricity off the grid.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> McGuinty is doing his best to chase industry out of the province with his hyper expensive and unnecessary green energy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that paying 80 cents a kw (for 20 year contracts) for something our existing facilities can produce for 6 or 7 cents a kw isn't the brightest idea. Not only are we paying these insane rates to feel all green and fuzzy, we're then forced to pay other provinces and states millions to take our surplus electricity off the grid.


If only the other provinces would pay us more so McGuinty can live out his green dream. It's their fault for holding back on transfer payments!

When the country's economic engine goes into stall mode, this has major repercussions for 
the rest of Canada. The premier of Ontario has position that wields considerable potential power--but McGuinty is running the ship as a neuter.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Flip Floppin Harper!*

GuelphMercury - Prime minister?s flip-flop on public pension system...

Shame Shame! Flip Flopper!

Brought to you by JNN - "chit"


----------



## groovetube

annnnd another one who thinks McGuinty is responsible for the country's economic shifts.

Man that McGuinty fellow is one powerful dude eh?

Here, stand there, yeah, hold on a second while I insert this bullring, yeeeeeeaahhh, almost there, ok. Now repeat after me. The west wants in stuff? Yeah. That's McGuinty's fault.

LOL


----------



## groovetube

Brewing scandal in China could be a reality check for Harper - The Globe and Mail

Howz all that China schmoozin going eh?

hmm. Maybe not so well.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Brewing scandal in China could be a reality check for Harper - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Howz all that China schmoozin going eh?
> 
> hmm. Maybe not so well.


When Bob Rae suddenly disappears, it shall be a story. Until it comes from JNN, it should be suspect and up for interpretation as to what it all means. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - Flip floppin' on the flip flops*

Changes to OAS won’t take effect before 2020, Flaherty says - The Globe and Mail

This is getting good. Better than watching Harphead play ping pong!

Brought to you by JNN - "Now do you think they can flip flop on the flip flop from the flip flop...chit?"

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

As long as they ultimately make changes to OAS, I don't care if they flip or flop before then.


----------



## groovetube

yeah because we'd rather hand all those benefits to more corporate tax cuts.

'cause you know they need bigger exec bonuses... unless you're one of those fools who actually think it'll create jobs... LOL

Way to look out for the average joe!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Oh oh! Yet another flip flop on the flip flop on the flip flop of the original flip flop (stop I'm going to be sick!)

That's right ol' Jimmy Boy may have to be reigned in:

Politics - The Globe and Mail

Where are you Harphead? Restore some control and order please. We're getting whip lash trying to follow this!

Brought to you by JNN - "Ouch, chit that hurts"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Oh oh! Yet another flip flop on the flip flop on the flip flop of the original flip flop (stop I'm going to be sick!)
> 
> That's right ol' Jimmy Boy may have to be reigned in:
> 
> Politics - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Where are you Harphead? Restore some control and order please. We're getting whip lash trying to follow this!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Ouch, chit that hurts"


Sidney Crosby should be around, with all these flip flops, it might be good therapy for his concussion and whiplash symptoms without bothering and tying up that busy professor and his machine.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, it's a real issue. Kind of like when the Liberals signed Kyoto and then flip-flopped by never enacting a single program to enforce it. Which do you suppose had a worse effect on our reputation in the global perspective?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - Duct tape wearing thin on CONS*

MPs are gagging on Harper's duct tape

A good one about the crazies coming out of the woodwork. It's been a great week for the looney mice to be saying stupid thing after stupid thing while the cat (Harphead) has been away peddling Canadian raw resources to the Commies. It should be fun to see the duct tape muzzle reapplied to the loons. There's always a good possibility that a CON splinter group might break and reform the old deformed party again.

Brought to you by JNN - "citing consistent examples of CON ineptitude since 2011"


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Oh oh! Yet another flip flop on the flip flop on the flip flop of the original flip flop (stop I'm going to be sick!)
> 
> That's right ol' Jimmy Boy may have to be reigned in:
> 
> Politics - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Where are you Harphead? Restore some control and order please. We're getting whip lash trying to follow this!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Ouch, chit that hurts"





> This is for 2020, 2025 so that people who are middle-age and younger today, like Colin – not me – can be assured that they will have these social programs properly funded, fiscally responsible, that they’ll be there for them in the future.”


Except he is totally dishonest with Canadians. The cons really, just need more money and so creating some bogus crisis gives them the go ahead to scarf money from the seniors?

I guess the insane spending is now going to have some real costs. Tim to pay the piper. It's my hope Canada wakes up in particular Ontario next election.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's my hope Canada wakes up in particular Ontario next election.


They already are awake--and they like what they see!


----------



## groovetube

It appears YOU like what you see. I think we get that. The transfer of our money into big execs back pockets it's desirable.

Ultimately, the next election will show that.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It appears YOU like what you see. I think we get that. The transfer of our money into big execs back pockets it's desirable.
> 
> Ultimately, the next election will show that.


Get out of the Annex once in awhile. Listening to one's neighbours can skew your viewpoint. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, but at the same time, there's no vast defection from the Conservative party at this point.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Get out of the Annex once in awhile. Listening to one's neighbours can skew your viewpoint. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, but at the same time, there's no vast defection from the Conservative party at this point.


I'm not in the Annex.

Anyway, keep on trollin. It's just what you do.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Get out of the Annex once in awhile. Listening to one's neighbours can skew your viewpoint. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, but at the same time, there's no vast defection from the Conservative party at this point.


Ahh Yes! There is that ol' BS about a "strong majority Conservative government" really meaning an over whelming endorsement of conservative values and a "strong mandate" to govern.

In certain ridings, it would not take all that many votes changing, away from Conservative Candidates to candidates from another party to have the colour of MP's win, go from Blue to another colour.

Our Glorious Leader, thought OAS was going to be a winner wedge issue, seems it is to be not so much of one, for him and his party.

Valuing large corporate interests over the interests of the small guy or small and medium business may not resonate so well with voters either.

Time well tell if OGL will win the hearts and minds to his side or if his rhetoric and ideology will do him in.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Ahh Yes! There is that ol' BS about a "strong majority Conservative government" really meaning an over whelming endorsement of conservative values and a "strong mandate" to govern.


That doesn't exist at all--just enough Members of Parliament to roll back a big chunk of liberalism.


----------



## BigDL

It's to :lmao:


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> That doesn't exist at all--just enough Members of Parliament to roll back a big chunk of liberalism.


[J]ust enough Members of Parliament to roll back a big chunk of liberalism, using a misrepresentative First Past The Post electoral system to impose the wishes of 39% of Canadian Voters over the wishes of the other 61%.

Enjoy your conservative spring while it lasts. Inevitably it will crumble one day, when enough people see the damage it brings.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> [J]ust enough Members of Parliament to roll back a big chunk of liberalism, using a misrepresentative First Past The Post electoral system to impose the wishes of 39% of Canadian Voters over the wishes of the other 61%.
> 
> Enjoy your conservative spring while it lasts. Inevitably it will crumble one day, when enough people see the damage it brings.


Yeah, we know. Just like the annihilation of the Liberals by voters for their wonderful performance over 13 years.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> [J]ust enough Members of Parliament to roll back a big chunk of liberalism, using a misrepresentative First Past The Post electoral system to impose the wishes of 39% of Canadian Voters over the wishes of the other 61%.
> 
> Enjoy your conservative spring while it lasts. Inevitably it will crumble one day, when enough people see the damage it brings.


The problem is, despite ample evidence to the contrary, they just don't see the inevitable damage. As long as their party continues to whisper sweet libertarian sweet nothings in their ear, they are well placated into believing this whole rights and freedoms nonsense along with the 'no taxes are good taxes'. South of the border they're going to be mired in the horrendous disaster of the right being in total control, now they sit back and actually blame the democrats for the mess. It just doesn't get, any more deluded than that.

It's too bad we have to sit and watch as this government continues to spend it's face off, shifting the tax burden to working Canadians from the top, just as they did in the US, which will of course, have a very heavy price for us all not too long into the future. And just as in the US, it won't be the top end that will be paying for it either.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Yeah, we know. Just like the annihilation of the Liberals by voters for their wonderful performance over 13 years.


They have at least, despite the large warts of that party, left the country in very good standing, one that the conservatives have multiple times, taken full credit for.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> They have at least, despite the large warts of that party, left the country in very good standing, one that the conservatives have multiple times, taken full credit for.


I see, so what you're saying is that since the Conservatives have been in power (2004) with successive governments, the last being a majority, It was the Liberal policies prior to 2004 that the Conservatives are taking credit for? Brilliant!

And by the way, I never heard the Cons take credit for AdScam yet. Did they miss that one?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Yeah, we know. Just like the annihilation of the Liberals by voters for their wonderful performance over 13 years.


The pendulum swings both ways. FPTP exacerbates that swinging.

Just like when the PC Party, through bad political decisions coupled with arrogance were decimated by the Libs. They had to take back seat to the other side of the Canadian conservative movement and eventually merge with the Reform as junior partners to get back to power. When the inevitable arrogance of the Liberal leadership led to their demise the reconstituted Cons were ready. 

The Cons in government are now making bad political decisions and are certainly arrogant in their use of power. Meanwhile the Libs will now have to settle with being a junior partner in some kind of resurgent re-grouping of those who are not conservative. 

The Cons are hoping that the other parties will remain divided. That's the only way they can keep winning under first past the post. Some in the NDP think they can take on the Cons alone without help from the Libs. 

We shall see, as the Doctor says, if Harper can make it through another election. I think he might, but by 2015 the Canadian majority will be thoroughly sick of this right-wing extremist and will be looking to find the best way of turfing him. How that will manifest I can't predict, but I do know that the pendulum will eventually swing back.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I see, so what you're saying is that since the Conservatives have been in power (2004) with successive governments, the last being a majority, It was the Liberal policies prior to 2004 that the Conservatives are taking credit for? Brilliant!
> 
> And by the way, I never heard the Cons take credit for AdScam yet. Did they miss that one?


Harper and co merely went on a spending spree. They benefited from a good financial standing, and strong banks, and used things like gst cuts to curry favor from the voters. 

So far we've seen how well they can spend and hand off huge tax breaks to the wealthy. Now, we'll see in the next number of years, just how great a financial whiz they really are.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The pendulum swings both ways. FPTP exacerbates that swinging.


I would have used the word "improves."


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> I would have used the word "improves."


Good one, MF. 

Like loaded dice improves a craps game.

I suppose that means you then supported Chretien running a PMO dictatorship in the '90s, enacting that "big chunk of liberalism", while all cons sat on the sidelines, unable to say much of anything.

Having rules that skew the result unfairly always "improves" the game, -- for those that benefit from those skewed results. When they eke out a slight plurality win under this distorted system, they win big and when their support drops by a few percent, their party is reduced to a rump. The real loser is always those who would like less politics and more responsible representation. 

Trust that under your preferred system conservatives will at some point once again be on the outside looking in, while others emboldened by some unrepresentative so-called mandate will be arrogantly wielding power, re-enacting that big chunk o' liberalism.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good one, MF.
> 
> Like loaded dice improves a craps game.
> 
> I suppose that means you then supported Chretien running a PMO dictatorship in the '90s, enacting that "big chunk of liberalism", while all cons sat on the sidelines, unable to say much of anything.
> 
> Having rules that skew the result unfairly always "improves" the game, -- for those that benefit from those skewed results. When they eke out a slight plurality win under this distorted system, they win big and when their support drops by a few percent, their party is reduced to a rump. The real loser is always those who would like less politics and more responsible representation.
> 
> Trust that under your preferred system conservatives will at some point once again be on the outside looking in, while others emboldened by some unrepresentative so-called mandate will be arrogantly wielding power, re-enacting that big chunk o' liberalism.


:clap:


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Harper and co merely went on a spending spree.


My how quickly you forget groove. It was the Liberals and the Bloc and the NDP who forced that spending under direct threat of toppling the Con government if they didn't do it. It wasn't exactly a Con spending spree, so place the blame where it lies in future.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Trust that under your preferred system conservatives will at some point once again be on the outside looking in, while others emboldened by some unrepresentative so-called mandate will be arrogantly wielding power, re-enacting that big chunk o' liberalism.


Yes, at some point in the far-flung future, when the rules have been heavily stacked against rebuilding that rotten melon of a system.


----------



## groovetube

So all the con spending spree, is the liberals fault?

That's a total joke.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> So all the con spending spree, is the liberals fault?
> 
> That's a total joke.


Yes. The major part of the spending that created the deficit is without any doubt the doing of the opposition and last I checked it did include more Liberals than any other party. That of course has changed since we booted their butts out of office for it. Denying that is denying fact which is no joke to anyone but you.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Yes. The major part of the spending that created the deficit is without any doubt the doing of the opposition and last I checked it did include more Liberals than any other party. That of course has changed since we booted their butts out of office for it. Denying that is denying fact which is no joke to anyone but you.


The gst cut which did nothing but add to the deficit was forced by the liberals?

After they made so much about the 32 million they would save yanking party subsidies only to blow 28 million on a stupid celebration in a con riding was forced by the liberals?

The 50 million in gazebos snagged by clement was forced by the liberals?

The billion for the g20 photo op was forced?

The untold massive billions in jets that are dodgy at best and useless for artic defense, was forced?

The huge corp tax cut we all know are simply back pocket stuffings for the rich under the guise of job creation, was forced?

The billions and billions in costs for the useless crime bills foisted on struggling provinces, were forced?

We could go on, and on.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The gst cut which did nothing but add to the deficit was forced by the liberals?
> 
> After they made so much about the 32 million they would save yanking party subsidies only to blow 28 million on a stupid celebration in a con riding was forced by the liberals?
> 
> The 50 million in gazebos snagged by clement was forced by the liberals?
> 
> The billion for the g20 photo op was forced?
> 
> The untold massive billions in jets that are dodgy at best and useless for artic defense, was forced?
> 
> The huge corp tax cut we all know are simply back pocket stuffings for the rich under the guise of job creation, was forced?
> 
> The billions and billions in costs for the useless crime bills foisted on struggling provinces, were forced?
> 
> We could go on, and on.


I suppose you could but most of those last examples in your list are all talk with no active spending yet. Kinda deflates the balloon, doesn't it?


----------



## groovetube

Not active spending??? That's all you have to counter this? Really? Sinc, these are bills passed, plans in place, moneys already spent. Moneys promised.

Now unless they renege on the jet purchase, and roll the corp tax cuts NOW, well, your point is invalid.

They are majore spenders, and it's gonna be you and I they look to to balance the budget, starting with seniors. It will go from there. Because it ain't gonna be the rich corporations that's for sure.

They are on the wrong track, and unfortunately, we'll in bad shape by the time people realize it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Not active spending??? That's all you have to counter this? Really? Sinc, these are bills passed, plans in place, moneys already spent. Moneys promised.
> 
> Now unless they renege on the jet purchase, and roll the corp tax cuts NOW, well, your point is invalid.
> 
> They are majore spenders, and it's gonna be you and I they look to to balance the budget, starting with seniors. It will go from there. Because it ain't gonna be the rich corporations that's for sure.
> 
> They are on the wrong track, and unfortunately, we'll in bad shape by the time people realize it.


Ah yes, I forgot you know all, sorry about that.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Not active spending??? That's all you have to counter this? Really? Sinc, these are bills passed, plans in place, moneys already spent. Moneys promised.
> 
> Now unless they renege on the jet purchase, and roll the corp tax cuts NOW, well, your point is invalid.
> 
> They are majore spenders, and it's gonna be you and I they look to to balance the budget, starting with seniors. It will go from there. Because it ain't gonna be the rich corporations that's for sure.
> 
> They are on the wrong track, and unfortunately, we'll in bad shape by the time people realize it.


And it will get worse. King Harpo is committed to an invasion of Syria, which will force Iran to honour their mutual defense treaty with Syria, which will give the US the excuse it has been looking for to invade Iran, which will end up with Canada spending copious quantities of our money invading Iran.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Ah yes, I forgot you know all, sorry about that.


I merely pointed out what is well known sinc.

It's disappointing to any Canadian hoping for better government. It just seems not likely to happen, particularly with this system of winner takes all. We have seen the corrupt machineries of past majority governments promising better. 

Insanity is...


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I merely pointed out what is well known sinc.





groovetube said:


> The untold massive billions in jets that are dodgy at best and useless for artic defense, was forced?


I see. So, it's well known that the government has spent a lot of money on new fighter jets then, is it? Note that IS past tense groove.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I see. So, it's well known that the government has spent a lot of money on new fighter jets then, is it? Note that IS past tense groove.


Just wait for the NDP to take power federally, SINC--they'll show you how they save money.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The huge corp tax cut we all know are simply back pocket stuffings for the rich under the guise of job creation, was forced?


I see. Now groove, exactly which corporations got back pocket money under the guise of job creations? Name a few please, if this is so well known.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I see. Now groove, exactly which corporations got back pocket money under the guise of job creations? Name a few please, if this is so well known.


Congratulations for parsing that sentence, SINC.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The billions and billions in costs for the useless crime bills foisted on struggling provinces, were forced?
> 
> We could go on, and on.


I see. So groove what billions, oh sorry, well known billions and billions have been spent on a crime bill by provinces? Which provinces spent that money and how much did each province spend. I mean really groove, if it's so well known, that should be easy for you to Google or something?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I see. So, it's well known that the government has spent a lot of money on new fighter jets then, is it? Note that IS past tense groove.


the fact that you need to go in circles over whether the money has -been- spent, or has been announced it -will- be spent, is kind of insulting Sinc. We both know full well this is going to be spent. What about all the other wasteful spending. That's ok? Those are just examples. Surely you aren't going to pretend this government hasn't been on quite the spending spree. Really.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> the fact that you need to go in circles over whether the money has -been- spent, or has been announced it -will- be spent, is kind of insulting Sinc. We both know full well this is going to be spent. What about all the other wasteful spending. That's ok? Those are just examples. Surely you aren't going to pretend this government hasn't been on quite the spending spree. Really.


You know groove, you called another person a liar recently for less than that. What gives you the right to do the same? Technically that is not true. Zero dollars have been spent so far.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> the fact that you need to go in circles over whether the money has -been- spent, or has been announced it -will- be spent, is kind of insulting Sinc. We both know full well this is going to be spent. What about all the other wasteful spending. That's ok? Those are just examples. Surely you aren't going to pretend this government hasn't been on quite the spending spree. Really.


No groove, not even you who knows all can say that with any accuracy. The way the manufacturer is falling apart, they may never produce that jet. And the government could change their mind.

And not a dime has left the treasury yet, has it groove? Isn't that the truth?


----------



## SINC

And those tales of yours about the provinces spending billions of dollars due to a Con crime bill aren't exactly true either, are they groove?I mean if they were so well known, I am pretty sure I would have heard about it. Not a dime here in Alberta yet. How about Ontario groove?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I see. So groove what billions, oh sorry, well known billions and billions have been spent on a crime bill by provinces? Which provinces spent that money and how much did each province spend. I mean really groove, if it's so well known, that should be easy for you to Google or something?


The bills have been passed, and it's well known that there will be large costs associated with it. The provinces have balked at having to shoulder the increased costs, which will indeed be considerable. I find it rather funny that you would pretend it isn't. Is it really, that upsetting that what I've pointed out is rather obvious, and shows just how badly this government is handling our money in a time we should be not doing so? Isn't it rather embarrassing with Flaherty running around the world preaching restraint when his own government doesn't know the meaning of the word?

It's a tough pill to swallow, but all their supporters can do is mumble something like, 'wull da other guy woulda spent more man.

pffft. That's all you got.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And those tales of yours about the provinces spending billions of dollars due to a Con crime bill aren't exactly true either, are they groove?


do you even read newspapers sinc? Really?

This was big news about the increased costs. In fact there was even bigger news on how the cons were digging in their heels on how much the costs would be. Now, you're going to tell this all, wasn't rue? Really?

C'mon. 

here you go, and that's just Ontario... The new facility that will be needed alone will cost almost a billion bucks.
Conservative crime bill would cost Ontario more than $1-billion - The Globe and Mail

Again, I find it interesting that you are so insistent that the cons are not spending this money. What are you going to say when the money THEY SAID THEY WOULD SPEND gets spent just as they said it would?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The bills have been passed, and it's well known that there will be large costs associated with it. The provinces have balked at having to shoulder the increased costs, which will indeed be considerable. I find it rather funny that you would pretend it isn't. Is it really, that upsetting that what I've pointed out is rather obvious, and shows just how badly this government is handling our money in a time we should be not doing so? Isn't it rather embarrassing with Flaherty running around the world preaching restraint when his own government doesn't know the meaning of the word?
> 
> It's a tough pill to swallow, but all their supporters can do is mumble something like, 'wull da other guy woulda spent more man.
> 
> pffft. That's all you got.


Actually groove pffft is pretty much what you've got, not me. I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims, am I groove?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> do you even read newspapers sinc? Really?
> 
> This was big news about the increased costs. In fact there was even bigger news on how the cons were digging in their heels on how much the costs would be. Now, you're going to tell this all, wasn't rue? Really?
> 
> C'mon.
> 
> Again, I find it interesting that you are so insistent that the cons are not spending this money. What are you going to say when the money THEY SAID THEY WOULD SPEND gets spent just as they said it would?


Prove it groove, give m a single link with the costs nailed down from a crime bill.


----------



## SINC

And give me a single corporation that got back pocket money, please groove?


----------



## groovetube

provided. Read it.

It was all over the news here. Perhaps in con land it was hush hush.


----------



## SINC

Or show me how many jets are ordered that cannot be cancelled due to cracks in the fuselage recently uncovered, please groove?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> provided. Read it.
> 
> It was all over the news here. Perhaps in con land it was hush hush.


Sorry, but that answer won't cut it. As they say, put up or well . . .


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And give me a single corporation that got back pocket money, please groove?


Show me the job creation. Otherwise, just where do you think, that money is going to go?

Corporations don't sit around their boardrooms going, oh great, we got a tax cut, let's hire tons more people!

Only a fool would fall for that one. There is no real evidence to support tax cuts create jobs.

I know that'll be a hard one to swallow.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Sorry, but that answer won't cut it. As they say, put up or well . . .


You wanted a link, and you got it.

Refute it, or clam up.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> do you even read newspapers sinc? Really?
> 
> This was big news about the increased costs. In fact there was even bigger news on how the cons were digging in their heels on how much the costs would be. Now, you're going to tell this all, wasn't rue? Really?
> 
> C'mon.
> 
> here you go, and that's just Ontario... The new facility that will be needed alone will cost almost a billion bucks.
> Conservative crime bill would cost Ontario more than $1-billion - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Again, I find it interesting that you are so insistent that the cons are not spending this money. What are you going to say when the money THEY SAID THEY WOULD SPEND gets spent just as they said it would?


From YOUR link:



> Ms. Meilleur warns the Conservatives' *crime bill could add* another 1,500 inmates to the system by 2016, pushing populations to 150 per cent of capacity at some jails.


Notice the bold face groove. Hasn't happened, has it groove?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Sorry, but that answer won't cut it. As they say, put up or well . . .


As the only viewer of SUN TV, perhaps he saw it there.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Show me the job creation. Otherwise, just where do you think, that money is going to go?
> 
> Corporations don't sit around their boardrooms going, oh great, we got a tax cut, let's hire tons more people!
> 
> Only a fool would fall for that one. There is no real evidence to support tax cuts create jobs.
> 
> I know that'll be a hard one to swallow.


That's not hard to swallow because it's supposition on your part and nothing more. Prove it groove or well . . .


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> From YOUR link:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the bold face groove. Hasn't happened, has it groove?


Um. Ok. The bill, was just passed. That, is what it is -going-, to cost us.

My point is, the cons policies, are going to cost us large. They not only have already spent like drunken sailors, but their policies and spending announcements means we're going to spend EVEN MORE.

Is this, not clear? I'm guessing more cat on a leash will ensue.

How about you show that it isn't going to cost us.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> As the only viewer of SUN TV, perhaps he saw it there.


wrong again, SunTV is cable only. So I dont get it.

Not having a good night are you.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Um. Ok. The bill, was just passed. Tat, is what it is -going-, to cost us.
> 
> My point is, the cons policies, are going to cost us large. They not only have already spent like drunken sailors, but their policies and spending announcements means we're going to spend EVEN MORE.
> 
> Is this, not clear? I'm guessing more cat on a leash will ensue.
> 
> How about you show that it isn't going to cost us.


Nope, sorry groove, you don't get that from me. I am not the one posting untruths. I have nothing to defend, you apparently do or well . . .


----------



## Macfury

SINC, I think he's confused about the way the economy works. Corporations only hire workers when they need them--not just because they have spare cash lying around. The tax cuts juice economic activity and workers are later hired to meet their needs, not as charity. I suppose this might be confusing if one understands the economy through the lens of an NDP pamphlet.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Nope, sorry groove, you don't get that from me. I am not the one posting untruths. I have nothing to defend, you apparently do or well . . .


what untruth sinc.

You asked for a link to info on how much the con bill is going to cost, and I provided it.

Somehow, you got yourself stuck in a loop and can't figure out the differences between the money that has been spent, and the money that we WILL be spending as a result of Harper's government.

It must be that you find it incredulous that we would be spending like this, and there's more coming.

I would understand that, and agree.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> SINC, I think he's confused about the way the economy works. Corporations only hire workers when they need them--not just because they have spare cash lying around. The tax cuts juice economic activity and workers are later hired to meet their needs, not as charity. I suppose this might be confusing if one understands the economy through the lens of an NDP pamphlet.


Sorry pal but your trolling is just truly sucking pretty big tonight. Maybe try again tomorrow.


----------



## SINC

MF, having sat in a boardroom or two in my day, tax cuts provide opportunities for corporations to explore new revenue streams and once a lengthy process of R & D is done, only then do jobs get created. Tax cut today, job creation tomorrow? Nope, doesn't work that way.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> what untruth sinc.
> 
> You asked for a link to info on how much the con bill is going to cost, and I provided it.
> 
> Somehow, you got yourself stuck in a loop and can't figure out the differences between the money that has been spent, and the money that we WILL be spending as a result of Harper's government.
> 
> It must be that you find it incredulous that we would be spending like this, and there's more coming.
> 
> I would understand that, and agree.


The untruth that the government has already spent money on new fighter jets for one. Not true. Want me to provide you with the rest?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Sorry pal but your trolling is just truly sucking pretty big tonight. Maybe try again tomorrow.


Aha, just as I thought. When it gets too hot, get out of the kitchen and resort to name calling, trolling being your favourite diversion. I asked questions you cannot answer. Night groove.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> MF, having sat in a boardroom or two in my day, tax cuts provide opportunities for corporations to explore new revenue streams and once a lengthy process of R & D is done, only then do jobs get created. Tax cut today, job creation tomorrow? Nope, doesn't work that way.


Exactly. But if one looks at it as charity, one expects the workers to be hired overnight. Only if one looks at the economy as a giant social program does this make sense.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> The untruth that the government has already spent money on new fighter jets for one. Not true. Want me to provide you with the rest?


I didn't specify whether the money has gone out the door, or whether the government has announced IT WOULD spend the money. I'm not sure why you need to make this distinction sinc.

Perhaps the only explanation is that you find it incredulous that they would spend it.

Unless we'll be surprised that the cons suddenly say, no, we won't buy any fighter jets like we said we would, and we're going to trash the big crime bill we just passed so it won't cost us a lot of money as a result.

Do you know if that's going to happen? I haven't heard anything of the sort.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I didn't specify whether the money has gone out the door, or whether the government has announced IT WOULD spend the money. I'm not sure why you need to make this distinction sinc.
> 
> Perhaps the only explanation is that you find it incredulous that they would spend it.


No, my point is that it is not true. Retract it or continue to live with an untruth. Your call.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> MF, having sat in a boardroom or two in my day, tax cuts provide opportunities for corporations to explore new revenue streams and once a lengthy process of R & D is done, only then do jobs get created. Tax cut today, job creation tomorrow? Nope, doesn't work that way.


prove it.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> No, my point is that it is not true. Retract it or continue to live with an untruth. Your call.


This from the guy who dismissed Liberal spending promises in the last federal election as meaning nothing--after all they were just intentions, not actual spending.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> prove it.


Brilliant! How juvenile. Board meeting are normally only held once a month so unless the meeting is the day of the announced tax cut, it is impossible for your theory to work. I will however, not bother to tell you that is well known.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Brilliant! How juvenile. Board meeting are normally only held once a month so unless the meeting is the day of the announced tax cut, it is impossible for your theory to work. I will however, not bother to tell you that is well known.


Oh no, you're not getting off that easy, you wanted info on the costs of the crime bill, I gave it to you.

Now your contention is corp tax cuts will create jobs.

Show me some proof that this is the case. 

Besides which, we better see some real job creation now that the corps have been handed a big tax cut for 2012 eh.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This from the guy who dismissed Liberal spending promises in the last federal election as meaning nothing--after all they were just intentions, not actual spending.


Sorry, you're batting zero here. I never said such a thing, but I did point out that you said the conservatives were better managers of our money, which is proving to be a complete farce so far.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Oh no, you're not getting off that easy, you wanted info on the costs of the crime bill, I gave it to you.
> 
> Now your contention is corp tax cuts will create jobs.
> 
> Show me some proof that this is the case.
> 
> Besides which, we better see some real job creation now that the corps have been handed a big tax cut for 2012 eh.


Gee groove, sorry, but it's not contention on my part:

Canada Job Creation Four Times as Much as Forecast; Unemployment Increases - Bloomberg

Canada?s job creation beats expectations, U.S. falls short - thestar.com

Canada created more jobs in June than the U.S. – Journal of Commerce

Need more groove?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Gee groove, sorry, but it's not contention on my part:
> 
> Canada Job Creation Four Times as Much as Forecast; Unemployment Increases - Bloomberg
> 
> Canada?s job creation beats expectations, U.S. falls short - thestar.com
> 
> Canada created more jobs in June than the U.S. – Journal of Commerce
> 
> Need more groove?


how is this correlated to corp tax cuts?

Happy accident?

All you provided were some articles showing some positive job numbers.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> how is this correlated to corp tax cuts?
> 
> Happy accident?


Better question is how is it not, groove?

My links sure beat nothing from you to back your assertions that we have already spent money on jets and that the provinces have spent or will spend billions and billions. Those are nothing short of unknown possibilities, not well known facts. You seem to not be able to tell the difference.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Well, it sure beats nothing from you to back your assertions that we have already spent money on jets and that the provinces have spent or will spend billions and billions. Those are nothing short of unknown possibilities, not well known facts. You seem to not be able to tell the difference.


are you saying we aren't going to spend the money on the jets, and the new facilities we will now have to build soon isn't going to cost 900 million?

What part of this is going to be cancelled? I'm unsure what exactly you are trying to say.

I was pointing out all the money we're spending. past now, and about to. Just what exactly are you digging in your heels here?

Again, I know it's difficult to take that we're spending like crazy, but, that -is- what's happening. And it's a great cause for concern both now and the very near future. Why is this so difficult to understand that it would take 2 pages of going in circles over, what seems quite clear?

We're spending the money, whether it's happened, or about to. Period.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Better question is how is it not, groove?
> 
> My links sure beat nothing from you to back your assertions that we have already spent money on jets and that the provinces have spent or will spend billions and billions. Those are nothing short of unknown possibilities, not well known facts. You seem to not be able to tell the difference.


I asked you. The conservatives have insisted it will create jobs. I don't see it, and neither do the experts either.

So I want to see proof that it creates jobs. It's a simple request.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> are you saying we aren't going to spend the money on the jets, and the new facilities we will now have to build soon isn't going to cost 900 million?


No groove, my point is that the money is not yet spent, nor definitely committed to a faulty plane that grows more likely every day not to be put into production given it's recent setbacks. Even the US government is having reservations.

What you cannot seem to get your mind around is that to outright state the money has been or will be spent is an untruth. You simply don't know that as fact and I contend if you don't, you should not be presenting it as well know fact.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I asked you. The conservatives have insisted it will create jobs. I don't see it, and neither do the experts either.
> 
> So I want to see proof that it creates jobs. It's a simple request.


Again groove, it wasn't me who stated this was a well known fact that corporations put money in their back pockets. I pointed out that Canada's job creation is better than most. Now once again please tell me which corporations got that back pocket money. Either that or well . . .


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Again groove, it wasn't me who stated this was a well known fact that corporations put money in their back pockets. I pointed out that Canada's job creation is better than most. Now once again please tell me which corporations got that back pocket money. Either that or well . . .


Oh really? In a time of record corp profits, and very little job creation to match relatively speaking, just where do you think it's going?

I guess you didn't read about the huge exec bonuses. Right, trickle down. I forgot.

Nothing like watching a bunch of conservatives praying the that shower of gold that's for sure.

A cryin shame is all I can say.


----------



## groovetube

so what have we learned here.

ou point out a handful of easy peasy examples of conservative spending sprees, and policies that will cost us large in the near term, and they pretty near meltdown.

That pretty says it all. But I'm still interested in proof that corp tax cuts create jobs, and I have a feeling, there isn't going to be any any time soon. But I knew that already....


----------



## Macfury

SINC: Give the poor guy's fevered brain a rest--he's mixed up with the exec bonuses in the U.S. Show him a little mercy.


----------



## groovetube

Oh right. I forgot. Canadians have never heard of this much less engage in it.

Oh what a funny world you live in fury, unicorns and rainbows. You'd believe, just about anything.


----------



## mrjimmy

All those who believe in 'Trickle Down Economics' please raise your hand.


----------



## groovetube

They're mad now because I, in one simplistic post showed that this government has, and will continue to spend its face off.

Then the ensuing argument over what color the money was or not, whether or not it was yesterday or it's going to be next month. Then the real prize was when the fury came in with his you dun unnerstan economiks as if that erased the sins.

Basically, it was probably more like... Oh nooooes! They not spendin money so much! They teh fiscal conservatives! 

It must sting to watch it go down so you just, you know. Pretend it's not happening.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Then the ensuing argument over what color the money was or not, whether or not it was yesterday or it's going to be next month. Then the real prize was when the fury came in with his you dun unnerstan economiks as if that erased the sins.


There was no argument in any way. I simply pointed out that you were posting things that were not true. They were suppositions on your part, but to date have not actually happened. You don't get it. End of story.


----------



## groovetube

it seems as though you don't want to see what is happening Sinc. This is what our government is doing, their spending so far, and is going to happen, is a great cause for concern. And here you are arguing whether the dollar bills have been sent yesterday, or has been set to go out the door in the next few years. 

Either way you slice it, their spending is catastrophic. Unfortunately, by the time you go, oh yeah, wow, that's a lot of spending, it will have been spent, and it'll be too late. I can guarantee that if it were the liberals in power, you wouldn't be arguing whether or not it was spent yesterday, or clearly about to be.

Anyway, it made for an amusing diversion while I spent all evening installing the new ssd/optibay and reinstalling everything. Snowleopard of course.


----------



## BigDL

Just because the credit card's magnetic strip is nearly worn out and the bill with those charges hasn't arrived yet, therefore no money has been spent. Why can't you see this. Gosh!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> it seems as though you don't want to see what is happening Sinc. This is what our government is doing, their spending so far,* and is going to happen,* is a great cause for concern. And here you are arguing whether the dollar bills have been sent yesterday, or has been set to go out the door in the next few years.
> 
> Either way you slice it, their spending is catastrophic. Unfortunately, by the time you go, oh yeah, wow, that's a lot of spending, it will have been spent, and it'll be too late. I can guarantee that if it were the liberals in power, you wouldn't be arguing whether or not it was spent yesterday, or clearly about to be.
> 
> Anyway, it made for an amusing diversion while I spent all evening installing the new ssd/optibay and reinstalling everything. Snowleopard of course.


Likek I said groove, you just don't get it. You continue to post untruths like the one noted above. You have no way, repeat none, of knowing that spending will actually occur. Nothing is written in stone and it is pure conjecture on your part.


----------



## mrjimmy

I recently bought a record player. In playing some of my Dad's old albums, some will on occasion skip. This propels me from what I'm doing in order to move the needle slightly forward to a clean stretch of vinyl.


----------



## groovetube

heh


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Likek I said groove, you just don't get it. You continue to post untruths like the one noted above. You have no way, repeat none, of knowing that spending will actually occur. Nothing is written in stone and it is pure conjecture on your part.


I'd say passed bills etc is a damn good bet next to the feeble, 'the liberals woulda... he said!'

Yeah probably better to not take our governments word for it and pretend they're only kidding about their spending commitments.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Just because the credit card's magnetic strip is nearly worn out and the bill with those charges hasn't arrived yet, therefore no money has been spent. Why can't you see this. Gosh!


shhh. It's the cons. They can't -possibly- be spending all this money.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I'd say passed bills etc is a damn good bet next to the feeble, 'the liberals woulda... he said!'
> 
> Yeah probably better to not take our governments word for it and pretend they're only kidding about their spending commitments.


I think Don is going with the theory that their lips were moving so we know they were lying. Either that or he is thinking the Liberals will get elected and come to the nations rescue by reneging on the legislated commitments.


----------



## SINC

Not at all, I simply point out that groove is posting givens that are not. That is an untruth. No issue with the government or the Cons or the Libs, Just groove posting falsehoods.


----------



## groovetube

he's still trying to prove I posted an untruth.

Unfortunately, what I posted has only been in every major newspaper and uttered by our own government many times over.

Some untruth! :lmao:


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> he's still trying to prove I posted an untruth.
> 
> Unfortunately, what I posted has only been in every major newspaper and uttered by our own government many times over.
> 
> Some untruth! :lmao:


When you claim money is spent when it clearly has not yet been spent, that's an untruth. I know you don't realize that, but that's what you continue to post. Untruths.


----------



## groovetube

we're not quite sure why you're stuck in this endless loop sinc. But what's clear is your refusal to accept what is happening, past, present, and what is committed.

Digging in your heels and asserted the committed dollars hasn't left the building only shows you too, might not like what is happening. It seems conservatives prefer to say, let's just let them do what they do, and only say something -after- they do what they said they would.

I think that seems to sum it up pretty well.


----------



## groovetube

groovetube said:


> Not active spending??? That's all you have to counter this? Really? Sinc, these are bills passed, plans in place, moneys already spent. Moneys promised.
> 
> Now unless they renege on the jet purchase, and roll the corp tax cuts NOW, well, your point is invalid.
> 
> They are majore spenders, and it's gonna be you and I they look to to balance the budget, starting with seniors. It will go from there. Because it ain't gonna be the rich corporations that's for sure.
> 
> They are on the wrong track, and unfortunately, we'll in bad shape by the time people realize it.


there. my post right after the list of spending and spending promises.

now get off your horse and say uncle. That's what I posted.

moneys spent, and moneys promised.

No untruth there. Now. We spent close to 10 pages in this endless loop, it's clear you don't want to admit that this government's spending (and promised spending before you go apecrap again for another 10 pages) is clearly out of control.


----------



## eMacMan

Meanwhile the Cons really are out to get you. Before you say; "I don't do anything wrong" remember the feds can describe anything they like as wrong and even make it retroactive. An example: BO describes someone that buys more than a weeks worth of groceries as a terrorist. If you also own a roll of duct tape you could be on your way to Gitmo.

Will give Don credit for posting the original link in the SAP

New law could open window for police to view online habits



> By Jason Magder, Postmedia News
> 
> The Conservative government plans to introduce a law next week that would allow police to better monitor web-surfing habits of Canadians and to track them with electronic surveillance.
> Entitled “an Act to enact the Investigating and Preventing Criminal Electronic Communications Act and to amend the Criminal Code and others Acts,” the law would require Internet service providers (ISPs) to install equipment that would allow them to monitor and preserve the Internet surfing activities of their customers. The providers could then be asked by police to collect and preserve surfing data of anyone suspected in engaging in criminal activity.
> 
> 
> Known as the Lawful Access law, Bill C-51 also would make it easier for law enforcement authorities to activate tracking mechanisms within cellphones so they can know the whereabouts of suspected criminals. If they’re suspected of being international terrorists, the law would allow such tracking to go on for a year, rather than the current 60-day limit, according to a previous incarnation of the law introduced last year.
> 
> 
> In recent months, open-Internet lobbyists and privacy advocates — including the privacy commissioner of Canada — have been warning the Conservative government not to adopt this bill, saying it is a serious infringement of civil liberties.
> 
> 
> Similar laws adopted in other countries have required ISPs to monitor the electronic communications of all their customers. While Canada would still require warrants to be issued for police to obtain data on the web surfing habits of Canadians, many are worried this law is invasive.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> now get off your horse and say uncle. That's what I posted.
> 
> moneys spent, and moneys promised.
> 
> No untruth there. Now. We spent close to 10 pages in this endless loop, it's clear you don't want to admit that this government's spending (and promised spending before you go apecrap again for another 10 pages) is clearly out of control.


First you post this with the untruth:



groovetube said:


> The untold massive billions in jets that are dodgy at best and useless for artic defense, was forced? (Money not spent).
> 
> The huge corp tax cut we all know are simply back pocket stuffings for the rich under the guise of job creation, was forced? (Can't prove this.
> 
> The billions and billions in costs for the useless crime bills foisted on struggling provinces, were forced? (Money not spent).
> 
> We could go on, and on.


Then you change your mind and make it money promised.

That's better, and BTW thanks for getting off your horse and saying uncle.


----------



## groovetube

What? I posted that directly after the list of spending. Sorry Sinc, you jumped the gun and didn't read the posts, because you bellowed for 10 pages when all you had to do was read what I said.

You can go back and see it right there. http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-299.html

You asked about it being active spending, and I clarified the post right there.

Oops sorry it was 7 pages of bellowing.


----------



## Macfury

Props to groovetube for rolling over on this one.


----------



## groovetube

when in doubt, troll.


----------



## BigDL

:clap: Gotta love it! An exacting clarification of the facts, in the right mind, is now "rolling over." :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

typical con tactic. Furious waving of the hands, and just spout whatever you believe as if it's facts, over, and over, and over again.

Just like our government!


----------



## SINC

It was never about the government or the Liberals or anyone else but you groove. You posted opinion or supposition as fact and it was clearly wrong. Now that you changed that your wording, it becomes truth.


----------



## groovetube

still sinc? Really?

c'mon I know this is a forum and all, but I very clearly posted the clarification directly under the list when you asked. You simply didn't listen and decided to bellow for 7 pages.

I think it's clear for anyone who sees the link to the posts in question.


----------



## Macfury

Sorry groove, this one is all you.


----------



## BigDL

Not even hardly. ...but repeat it until it's gotta be true...no facts required.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Trickle Down Y'all*

.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Not even hardly. ...but repeat it until it's gotta be true...no facts required.


troll troll troll. It's just what he does best!

I think it's pretty clear to anyone.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> .


classic.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> still sinc? Really?
> 
> c'mon I know this is a forum and all, but I very clearly posted the clarification directly under the list when you asked. You simply didn't listen and decided to bellow for 7 pages.
> 
> I think it's clear for anyone who sees the link to the posts in question.


groove I am not arguing about anything. You posted an untruth. I called you on it. You corrected yourself. Thanks. End of story.


----------



## groovetube

Yet you spent 7 pages bellowing after I clearly clarified my post directly.

Brilliant stuff!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*From the let's trade TARPIPE OIL and seal penis but forget about our citizens file*

As Ottawa fumbled, Husseyin Celil languished in China's court system - The Globe and Mail

Thanks for speaking up Harphead!

Brought to you by JNN - "pointing out CON hypocrisy since 2011"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - a bullchitter?*

Little green lies: Prime Minister Harper and Canada?s environment | iPolitics

You becha!

Brought to you by JNN - "exposing the CONS for what they are since 2011"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - From the gotta spend money to make money dept*

Despite goal of restraint, Harper’s top bureaucrats rack up travel costs - The Globe and Mail

Woo hoo lets have fun while we layoff 10k+ fed employees!

Brought to you by JNN - "anyone see a pattern of utter mismanagement developing here?"


----------



## BigDL

WARNING End of Derail marked as such


SINC said:


> groove I am not arguing about anything. You posted an untruth. I called you on it. You corrected yourself. Thanks. End of story.






jimbotelecom said:


> As Ottawa fumbled, Husseyin Celil languished in China's court system - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Thanks for speaking up Harphead!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "pointing out CON hypocrisy since 2011"





jimbotelecom said:


> Little green lies: Prime Minister Harper and Canada?s environment | iPolitics
> 
> You becha!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "exposing the CONS for what they are since 2011"


Re-Rail! Thank-You JNN.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> WARNING End of Derail marked as such
> 
> Re-Rail! Thank-You JNN.


Apparently you don't get it either. groove made an on-subject untrue post. I called him on that post and other thread content related subjects. There was no derail. It was all Canadian politics.


----------



## groovetube

I'd be interested in seeing the untrue post.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Apparently you don't get it either. groove made an on-subject untrue post. I called him on that post and other thread content related subjects. There was no derail. It was all Canadian politics.


  Onward and downward off the rails.


----------



## SINC

I already posted it once. Here it is again:



groovetube said:


> The billions and billions in costs for the useless crime bills foisted on struggling provinces, were forced?
> 
> We could go on, and on.


I see. So groove what billions, oh sorry, well known billions and billions have been spent on a crime bill by provinces? Which provinces spent that money and how much did each province spend. I mean really groove, if it's so well known, that should be easy for you to Google or something?

you countered:


groovetube said:


> do you even read newspapers sinc? Really?
> 
> This was big news about the increased costs. In fact there was even bigger news on how the cons were digging in their heels on how much the costs would be. Now, you're going to tell this all, wasn't rue? Really?
> 
> C'mon.
> 
> here you go, and that's just Ontario... The new facility that will be needed alone will cost almost a billion bucks.
> Conservative crime bill would cost Ontario more than $1-billion - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Again, I find it interesting that you are so insistent that the cons are not spending this money. What are you going to say when the money THEY SAID THEY WOULD SPEND gets spent just as they said it would?


And I responded.

From YOUR link:



> Ms. Meilleur warns the Conservatives' *crime bill could add* another 1,500 inmates to the system by 2016, pushing populations to 150 per cent of capacity at some jails.


Notice the bold face groove. Hasn't happened, has it groove?

No money spent is a fact. You stated it cost billions and billions. Quite a difference, dead wrong and untrue.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Onward and downward off the rails.


Exactly what part of the thread subject matter are you having trouble defining? It's ALL been on topic. Sheesh.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I already posted it once. Here it is again:
> 
> 
> 
> I see. So groove what billions, oh sorry, well known billions and billions have been spent on a crime bill by provinces? Which provinces spent that money and how much did each province spend. I mean really groove, if it's so well known, that should be easy for you to Google or something?
> 
> you countered:
> 
> 
> And I responded.
> 
> From YOUR link:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the bold face groove. Hasn't happened, has it groove?
> 
> No money spent is a fact. You stated it cost billions and billions. Quite a difference, dead wrong and untrue.


Note that I didn't say, said "_had_ been spent".

I referred to the spending that is being pushed onto the provinces, and provided a link to show what just ONE province will be looking at as a result of their crime bill.

So this is not an untrue post, you are merely mad because you are wrong. You made the distinction of what is and what hasn't yet been spent, and the very next post I clarified that the items you mentioned are spending that has been promised or will be spent as a result of bills being passed. I did so in the case that my original post wasn't clear. But you didn't listen and became belligerent for 7 pages after it had been clarified multiple times.

It's really very simple. You haven't a leg to stand on. And if you continue to assert I made an untrue post, I will point this out for 500 pages if you like. I bet anyone reading this can see it very clearly.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Note that I didn't say, said "_had_ been spent".
> 
> I referred to the spending that is being pushed onto the provinces, and provided a link to show what just ONE province will be looking at as a result of their crime bill.
> 
> So this is not an untrue post, you are merely mad because you are wrong. You made the distinction of what is and what hasn't yet been spent, and the very next post I clarified that the items you mentioned are spending that has been promised or will be spent as a result of bills being passed. I did so in the case that my original post wasn't clear. But you didn't listen and became belligerent for 7 pages after it had been clarified multiple times.
> 
> It's really very simple. You haven't a leg to stand on. And if you continue to assert I made an untrue post, I will point this out for 500 pages if you like. I bet anyone reading this can see it very clearly.


I am not prepared to waste another minute discussing this with you any longer. You are dodging the issue by making various claims that misconstrue the original post. Your facts were wrong, end of story. Now go ahead and post one more time to get the last word, claiming you are right when you know you are wrong and that will end it.


----------



## groovetube

Good, because your accusation of an untrue post is entirely baseless.

And you're just mad and have shown this by spending 7 pages repeating the same crap I clarified long ago.

The fact remains, this government's spending is outrageous, and that's becoming increasingly clear. I find even more funny that despite you spending an unbelievable amount of time asserting this money has not been spent, even though we know this is money that has been promised to be spent, that I'd see a conservative assert that a party, which isn't even in power much less have passed any legislation to spend money, that they would "spend more". Simply because you say so.

And that, makes this song and dance even more absurd.


----------



## SINC

And so ends another pronouncement from he who knows it all.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

groovetube said:


> I will point this out for 500 pages if you like. I bet anyone reading this can see it very clearly.





SINC said:


> I am not prepared to waste another minute discussing this with you any longer.





SINC said:


> And so ends another pronouncement from he who knows it all.


Oh please -- one of you has to stop this because it's BORING. I don't really care who thinks they're right, you both look like children.


----------



## groovetube

Actually at this point I don't care what anyone thinks. Not everyone has to read someone else's disagreement even if it appears to you like they're children. I wasn't going to take the bullying so you'll have to excuse the minor disruption.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Actually at this point I don't care what anyone thinks. Not everyone has to read someone else's disagreement even if it appears to you like they're children. I wasn't going to take the bullying so you'll have to excuse the minor disruption.


Yeah, it's not groove's fault, just ask him.


----------



## Macfury

Honestly, I'm pretty surprised to hear groove level charges of "bullying." I remember a generation of men made of sterner stuff.


----------



## i-rui

what were we talking about again?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> what were we talking about again?


I think it was U.S. politics.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Honestly, I'm pretty surprised to hear groove level charges of "bullying." I remember a generation of men made of sterner stuff.


damned if I do...

But I'm glad to hear support for standing up to it though!


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> what were we talking about again?


Well, there was talk about the insane conservative spending, and well we saw what reaction -that- brought... then the conservative contention that corp tax cuts create jobs, enough to hand them a big one without any conditions of course!, but then, no evidence that this will happen, and I saw the bit Jimbo posted about the sad state this government is in with regards to the environment. 

Are we really surprised this government wouldn't give a crap about the environment? Clean air? WHAT clean air act????

Just gut any environmental monitoring and scientists, so we don't have to hear about them bellyaching. 

So let's just derail the thread to ensure we don't actually talk about any of it, because we sure as hell wouldn't want to criticize dear leader would we.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I remember a generation of men made of sterner stuff.


Ah yes, the immortal "tough guy" argument. If you complain about being abused, you're a wimp and you should learn to stand up for yourself. 

Just for clarification; we all have weaknesses (even rugged individualists like MF), and societies and governments exist to allow us to function collectively in such a way that we combine our strengths and protect each other's weaknesses. If this function is not served to a greater extent than the costs to our individual freedoms that accrue from membership in society, we may as well go back to living in caves.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Ah yes, the immortal "tough guy" argument. If you complain about being abused, you're a wimp and you should learn to stand up for yourself.


Actual abuse, of course. Complaining about SINC being a cyber-bully? Not so much. Few men I know would be caught dead posturing a stance like that.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If this function is not served to a greater extent than the costs to our individual freedoms that accrue from membership in society, we may as well go back to living in caves.


I disagree entirely. We benefit most from voluntary association with others, not through associations collectively enforced. To quote:



> Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage’s whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.


----------



## groovetube

Ah just more tough guy talk. Always plenty of that over a keyboard.
Particularly from trolls.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Ah just more tough guy talk. Always plenty of that over a keyboard.


Perhaps. But I rarely see weak guy talk over a keyboard. Accusing a senior citizen of "bullying" a grown man takes the cake,


----------



## BigDL

Badgering and harassing might be applicable however off a cliff and into an abyss of foolishness might be accurate.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Badgering and harassing might be applicable however off a cliff and into an abyss of foolishness might be accurate.


Huh?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - TAR PIPE obstacle*

Court ruling compels Ottawa to protect killer-whale habitat - The Globe and Mail

Pretty sure the law will be changed so we can kill whales with ease once again. Harper will be the first to throw a harpoon.

Brought to you by JNN - "Let's hear it for the legal system for once!"


----------



## Macfury

> When SARA was enacted *in 2002*, it required the government to issue plans to protect any species at risk of becoming extirpated or extinct.


I suspect more than one government has ignored the law on this.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Court ruling compels Ottawa to protect killer-whale habitat - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Pretty sure the law will be changed so we can kill whales with ease once again. Harper will be the first to throw a harpoon.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Let's hear it for the legal system for once!"


Naw, OGL doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do the deed himself, nor the quality of character either.


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> Naw, OGL doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do the deed himself, nor the quality of character either.


Yah, you're right I forgot about that flaw of his.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Court ruling compels Ottawa to protect killer-whale habitat - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Pretty sure the law will be changed so we can kill whales with ease once again. Harper will be the first to throw a harpoon.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Let's hear it for the legal system for once!"



Here's some more interesting reading on this Tidal Station: 54 North and the plan to nowhere (Part 1)

One thing I wanted to point out, was that if Haper and co, had proven themselves worthy of trust in the environmental areas, I don't think the opposition to this would have been so strong. When it comes to this sort of thing, it seems to me the brilliant tactician aspect is sadly lacking. Thankfully.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> When it comes to this sort of thing, it seems to me the brilliant tactician aspect is sadly lacking. Thankfully.


You believe that because your thinking is short-term. Stephen Harper is playing a much bigger game than killer whales. Part of the game plan involves strategic high-profile losses that don't affect the overall plan.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You believe that because your thinking is short-term. Stephen Harper is playing a much bigger game than killer whales. Part of the game plan involves strategic high-profile losses that don't affect the overall plan.


I didn't mention killer whales. Sorry. There are plenty of other threads to go derail, so go, quick like a bunny.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> Here's some more interesting reading on this Tidal Station: 54 North and the plan to nowhere (Part 1)
> 
> One thing I wanted to point out, was that if Haper and co, had proven themselves worthy of trust in the environmental areas, I don't think the opposition to this would have been so strong. When it comes to this sort of thing, it seems to me the brilliant tactician aspect is sadly lacking. Thankfully.


Lefties are a peculiar lot...
Killing whales or cute furry seals
Killing unborn humans:clap:


----------



## BigDL

MacGuiver said:


> Lefties are a peculiar lot...
> Killing whales or cute furry seals
> Killing unborn humans:clap:


So much for "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Who said that, again?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So much for "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Who said that, again?


Jeus Christ said: "If you judge, be prepared to be judged.

It's not an admonishment against exposing evil.


----------



## MacGuiver

BigDL said:


> So much for "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Who said that, again?


Its not a judgement, just an observation.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I didn't mention killer whales.


No. just environmental concerns--of which killer whales are one. Again, Harper fully expects to see some environmental legislation modify his energy plans. Making sure these things happen in a public way that everyone can see is part of that energy plan.

Running afoul of such regulations publicly, then agreeing to capitulate, makes for a better statement than merely complying behind the scenes.


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Lefties are a peculiar lot...
> Killing whales or cute furry seals
> Killing unborn humans:clap:


another one desperate for a jab. My link wasn't discussing seals or whales. Try reading something for once.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No. just environmental concerns--of which killer whales are one. Again, Harper fully expects to see some environmental legislation modify his energy plans. Making sure these things happen in a public way that everyone can see is part of that energy plan.


You tried to make it all about the killer whales and you failed. Try reading the link.

And trumpeting Harper's public accountability only serves to make you look like a Harper fanboi. I'm sure that may not be what you intended.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> another one desperate for a jab. My link wasn't discussing seals or whales. Try reading something for once.


If you were better versed in the history, geography and fauna of the area, you would realize that the presence of seals and killer whales in Kitimat Arm were part of the environmental risk assessment conducted by Fisheries and Oceans Canada in 2007.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If you were better versed in the history, geography and fauna of the area, you would realize that the presence of seals and killer whales in Kitimat Arm were part of the environmental risk assessment conducted by Fisheries and Oceans Canada in 2007.


"were a part of" was it?

Yet you want to be a complete jack and derail things to make it ALL about the whales.

Grow up.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> "were a part of" was it?
> 
> Yet you want to be a complete jack and derail things to make it ALL about the whales.
> 
> Grow up.


Do some background reading before you spout off--like a killer whale.


----------



## MacGuiver

BigDL said:


> So much for "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Who said that, again?


Actually BigDL you have a point upon further reflection. I only mentioned lefties but there are some righties that think the same. 

My point excludes people on the right that share the same values and priorities regarding what life is worthy of protection and what isn't. Sorry to all pro-abortion lefties, I excluded the ideological brothers you have on the right on this issue. But I'm pretty confident that right leaning voter would be extremely rare on the membership list of NARAL.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Do some background reading before you spout off--like a killer whale.


Dear god, you mean to tell me that killer whales are part of the concern? Really?

Now why don't you post 10 more times that they are -part- of the concern, just to make sure everyone gets your point. That would be indeed helpful. It would really help derail any discussion and ensure everyone stays focused on your obsession with killer whales.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> You tried to make it all about the killer whales and you failed. Try reading the link.
> 
> And trumpeting Harper's public accountability only serves to make you look like a Harper fanboi. I'm sure that may not be what you intended.


Sorry Groove.

I hit reply on the wrong lefties quote. That said, how do you feel about killing whales and furry seals? I'm going to venture a guess that the thought of it repulses you and you support any and all laws that would protect them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Sorry Groove.
> 
> I hit reply on the wrong lefties quote. That said, how do you feel about killing whales and furry seals? I'm going to venture a guess that the thought of it repulses you and you support any and all laws that would protect them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


another rightie that is obsessed about the killer whales.

Well to answer your question, I eat meat, of all kinds so actually killing, a er, killer whale does not repulse me at all.

You'll have to try a little harder on that one I'm afraid.


----------



## Macfury

I'm pretty repelled by the notion of killing an endangered species, even for food.


----------



## Sonal

MacGuiver said:


> Sorry Groove.
> 
> I hit reply on the wrong lefties quote. That said, how do you feel about killing whales and furry seals? I'm going to venture a guess that the thought of it repulses you and you support any and all laws that would protect them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


Well, technically those killer whales and baby seals have already been born....

But "any and all laws to protect them"? No. I'm generally not a fan of absolutes.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> another rightie that is obsessed about the killer whales.
> 
> Well to answer your question, I eat meat, of all kinds so actually killing, a er, killer whale does not repulse me at all.
> 
> You'll have to try a little harder on that one I'm afraid.


I'm surprised Groove. I didn't take you for a guy that would support hunting whales or seals. 

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

gotta give both of you props for being so insistent on derailing threads.

It was a decent enough second attempt I guess. But the last time I checked, it was legal to hunt seals.


----------



## MacGuiver

Sonal said:


> Well, technically those killer whales and baby seals have already been born....
> 
> But "any and all laws to protect them"? No. I'm generally not a fan of absolutes.


I'm generally not a fan of the absolute right to end a human life based merely on which end of the birth call that life may be at.


----------



## bryanc

MacGuiver said:


> I'm generally not a fan of the absolute right to end a human life based merely on which end of the birth call that life may be at.


I'm an absolute fan of sovereignty over one's own body. If someone else is depending on your body for their life, it's your choice to provide that support or not.

What this has to do with whales and seals, let alone politics is beyond me.


----------



## bryanc

*I hate to say "I told you so"... but*

At the risk of returning this discussion to the topic of politics, there was some talk of the political right's obsession with surveilling the citizenry and generally breaching our privacy at every opportunity in the "right to defend yourself" thread. With respect to this MF commented:


Macfury said:


> That's absolute nonsense. I know few people who are happy with such infringements of privacy.


and I commend his attitude. But it seems that Harper et al. are bound and determined to increase warrantless online surveillance of Canadians with a new bill.

How many of our freedom-loving privacy-valuing conservative supporters will be rethinking their support for Harper over this?


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> At the risk of returning this discussion to the topic of politics, there was some talk of the political right's obsession with surveilling the citizenry and generally breaching our privacy at every opportunity in the "right to defend yourself" thread. With respect to this MF commented:
> 
> and I commend his attitude. But it seems that Harper et al. are bound and determined to increase warrantless online surveillance of Canadians with a new bill.
> 
> How many of our freedom-loving privacy-valuing conservative supporters will be rethinking their support for Harper over this?


Yep King Harpo is still faithfully following in the footsteps of Bush II and Bush III (aka BO)


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> How many of our freedom-loving privacy-valuing conservative supporters will be rethinking their support for Harper over this?


This is a relentless drive by all parties on both sides of the political spectrum. It needs to be dealt with as an issue. Voting one party out of office won't make that go away.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> gotta give both of you props for being so insistent on derailing threads.
> 
> It was a decent enough second attempt I guess. But the last time I checked, it was legal to hunt seals.





MacGuiver said:


> I'm surprised Groove. I didn't take you for a guy that would support hunting whales or seals.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


If only, Killer Whales and White Coat Seals lived in the same habitat at the same time, problem solved, derail solved thread re-railed, citizens living in peace and harmony. :clap:


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This is a relentless drive by all parties on both sides of the political spectrum. It needs to be dealt with as an issue. Voting one party out of office won't make that go away.


yet it's the conservatives who are hell bent on doing this.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> This is a relentless drive by all parties on both sides of the political spectrum. It needs to be dealt with as an issue. Voting one party out of office won't make that go away.


*WOW!*This from a citizen, who was stridently dead set against minority parliaments. Is he now saying majority parliament are not desirable?


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> This is a relentless drive by all parties on both sides of the political spectrum. It needs to be dealt with as an issue. Voting one party out of office won't make that go away.


I don't recall the Liberals pushing this sort of legislation, and from my conversations with NDP and Green candidates, they claim to be strongly opposed to this kind of crap. Seems to be a "Law and Order" social-conservative thing to me. But regardless, it's the Conservatives that are pushing it now, so it's the Conservatives that need to be told in no uncertain terms that the government has no business engaging in warrantless surveillance of its citizens.

You'd think someone with Harper's political sense would've seen which way the wind was blowing after the SOPA fiasco in the US. The fact that they're still pushing it suggests to me that it's ideological.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> yet it's the conservatives who are hell bent on doing this.


To be fair it is the Cons Puppet Meisters who are yanking King Harpos chains. If the Liberals were in charge the same Puppet Meisters would be pushing identical bills to revoke liberty and privacy. Otherwise when the bums go to funnel our retirement benefits into the big banksters vaults, they could be dealing with yet another Greece.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I don't recall the Liberals pushing this sort of legislation, and from my conversations with NDP and Green candidates, they claim to be strongly opposed to this kind of crap. Seems to be a "Law and Order" social-conservative thing to me. But regardless, it's the Conservatives that are pushing it now, so it's the Conservatives that need to be told in no uncertain terms that the government has no business engaging in warrantless surveillance of its citizens.
> 
> You'd think someone with Harper's political sense would've seen which way the wind was blowing after the SOPA fiasco in the US. The fact that they're still pushing it suggests to me that it's ideological.


I agree. Generally when you point out something of grave concern with the conservatives, the usual response when cornered is, well the liberals did it.

That somehow neutralizes everything.


----------



## kps

eMacMan said:


> To be fair it is the Cons Puppet Meisters who are yanking King Harpos chains. If the Liberals were in charge the same Puppet Meisters would be pushing identical bills to revoke liberty and privacy. Otherwise when the bums go to funnel our retirement benefits into the big banksters vaults, they could be dealing with yet another Greece.


+1 A man after my own pessimistic heart!


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> ...it's the Conservatives that are pushing it now, so it's the Conservatives that need to be told in no uncertain terms that the government has no business engaging in warrantless surveillance of its citizens.


Agreed.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

bryanc said:


> I don't recall the Liberals pushing this sort of legislation, and from my conversations with NDP and Green candidates, they claim to be strongly opposed to this kind of crap. Seems to be a "Law and Order" social-conservative thing to me. But regardless, it's the Conservatives that are pushing it now, so it's the Conservatives that need to be told in no uncertain terms that the government has no business engaging in warrantless surveillance of its citizens.
> 
> You'd think someone with Harper's political sense would've seen which way the wind was blowing after the SOPA fiasco in the US. The fact that they're still pushing it suggests to me that it's ideological.


Sorry bryanc, but the Liberals initiated this with the very same proposals when they were in government with Anne McLellan leading the charge. I wrote about it here on ehMac way back in 2005. Losing government put it on hold for some time, but the Conservatives kept this alive since they've taken over.

They were set to make this part of the Omnibus Crime bill in the fall, but for some reason pulled it at the last minute. I've haven't yet read in-depth news on the new proposal but on the surface it looks to be the same thing proposed last fall, which was virtually the same thing the Libs proposed over 6 years back.

It seems that no matter who is in government, there is a strong urge to expand police powers to allow for increased warrantless surveillance. I have no problem with the police investigating potential criminals, but it needs to be done with the justice system checks and balances that getting a warrant provides.

One thing that the Cons have added to their version is to have numbskulls like Public Safety Minister Vic Toews calling people with legitimate concerns of these expanded powers as siding with child pornographers and organized criminals. What an insulting idiot -- how about the Cons try keeping the public safe from the likes of that buffoon?

I've always believed that the best government is a government that lives in fear of the wrath of its citizens. Nowadays, with so many tuned out, misinformed and disengaged, its easy for governments to pull this kind of stuff with barely a peep from the peeps.


----------



## steviewhy

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## bryanc

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Sorry bryanc, but the Liberals initiated this with the very same proposals when they were in government


Okay, good to know. As I said, I was not aware of the Liberals pushing any of this crap, but I am now. Any future Liberal campaigner will be getting $hit on this particular topic should they knock on my door.



> It seems that no matter who is in government, there is a strong urge to expand police powers to allow for increased warrantless surveillance.


Yes, it certainly does seem that the people who gravitate to politics also gravitate to the authoritarian end of the political compass, regardless of where they fall on the left-right axis. 



> I have no problem with the police investigating potential criminals, but it needs to be done with the justice system checks and balances that getting a warrant provides.


I completely agree.



> One thing that the Cons have added to their version is to have numbskulls like Public Safety Minister Vic Toews calling people with legitimate concerns of these expanded powers as siding with child pornographers and organized criminals.


Well, apparently Mr. Toews thinks the only possible reason one might not want the government surveilling them is if they're child molesters or drug pushers.



> I've always believed that the best government is a government that lives in fear of the wrath of its citizens. Nowadays, with so many tuned out, misinformed and disengaged, its easy for governments to pull this kind of stuff with barely a peep from the peeps.


Nowadays governments live in fear of the wrath of their corporate sponsors. The only real power the citizenry have is as consumers; if you don't like the way the world works, change your buying habits.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Nowadays governments live in fear of the wrath of their corporate sponsors. The only real power the citizenry have is as consumers; if you don't like the way the world works, change your buying habits.


which is one big reason why you may see governments expanding police powers with internet surveillance. They may pull out the scumbags they say they are after (fear), but truthfully, especially after seeing what the power of the internet can bring to consumers such as organized protests such as the small example with the bank of america, (such that they had to shut down closing of accounts), corporations would like their puppets control these unruly consumers. With these expanded powers, don't think this isn't possible, or coming, and... if we think this government and related bureaucracies are not to be trusted, what happens when an even slimier government gets in, discovers these great powers and really, makes use of them.

I don't think these expanded powers were suggested only once by the liberals, I believe it was more than once, and started as a result of 9/11.


----------



## bryanc

An educated and engaged citizenry is not in the interests of either the Corporatocracy nor their Political Lieutenants, regardless of the party uniform. However, I don't think the NDP or the Greens are favourable choices as corporate shills, so there is still hope within the existing system.


----------



## groovetube

no, better to paint the ndp/greens as dangerous to human life in general, because they aren't quite the corporate shills the other 2 are.

Just keep the citizens deathly afraid of not pandering to the whims of the corps and rinse and repeat.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This is a relentless drive by all parties on both sides of the political spectrum. It needs to be dealt with as an issue. Voting one party out of office won't make that go away.


both parties, well there are more than 2 parties, and one that isn't on a relentless drive to do so.

But better to back corporate shills based on fear though.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> both parties, well there are more than 2 parties, _and one that isn't on a relentless drive to do so._


The NDP or the Bloc? Neither have had even a taste of power, so they get a free pass for now.


----------



## groovetube

Yet you are more than happy to keep feeding the wolves. And that's the only reason? They haven't been in power?

With all the bluster around how this conservative party is not the same conservative party of the Mulroney, (oh no they are different!) then they are having their first taste of power too. Though that doesn't seem to be going as well as hoped. I thought they weren't supposed to be the spending party, and one who trumpets our rights and freedoms.

And how is that turning out. Not so well it seems.


----------



## Macfury

??? You need to work on that post. I might respond to it after you fix it up.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Who left the crazzies in charge - Harper!*

Top Stories


----------



## Max

That's a great photo, albeit heavily over-processed.

The man's making a mighty stupid, ill-conceived argument. If that's the best he's capable of, I suppose we should be thankful that at least he's being obvious about his incompetence and dangerously simplistic world view.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> ??? You need to work on that post. I might respond to it after you fix it up.


Sorry iPhones are brutal. But I bet you can figure it out. I assume anyway.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Those pesky Judges! The Cons illegal laws*

Leroy Smickle case: Judge rejects 'outrageous,' unconstitutional mandatory gun sentence | News | National Post

Processed? Who said processed?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Hell's Angels - in fact*

.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

bryanc said:


> Well, apparently Mr. Toews thinks the only possible reason one might not want the government surveilling them is if they're child molesters or drug pushers.


Toews has proclaimed that every single one of Canada's provincial and federal privacy commissioners who together expressed their serious reservations with this legislation are supportive of child pornography and organized crime.

It's the sign of someone who has no argument to provide when they resort to this kind of over-top, fear-mongering rhetoric. It's a sad comment on Harper's government that an ass like this would be in cabinet or have any kind of responsibility in government.

This legislation will pass now because the Cons have a majority and aren't going to allow a free vote on something like this. And it will be appealed to the Supreme Court eventually on a charter argument. And I'd say it will lose that appeal, if we have a Supreme Court with any integrity. And it will have cost a boatload of money and for many months or years have weakened Canadians right to privacy and to not be illegally searched.

There's a reason that in a democracy we have laws in place that say the police can't break down your door and rifle through your papers without a warrant and a good legal reason they can justify to a judge. This law will dispense with that.

Edit: fixed awkward sentence.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Well, apparently Mr. Toews thinks the only possible reason one might not want the government surveilling them is if they're child molesters or drug pushers.


And yet, the reasoning used by some people in the gun thread seems to be: "I have nothing to hide from the government, why would I want a gun."


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Sure China hack our businesses but the CONS will sell you tarpipe!*

Nortel hit by suspected Chinese cyberattacks for a decade - Business - CBC News
:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Brought to you by JNN - "back in biz - chit".


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> And yet, the reasoning used by some people in the gun thread seems to be: "I have nothing to hide from the government, why would I want a gun."


I'd be really interested in seeing how that, if it even made any sense had to do with the total erosion of a citizen's right to privacy.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> And yet, the reasoning used by some people in the gun thread seems to be: "I have nothing to hide from the government, why would I want a gun."


i don't think anyone used that reasoning.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i don't think anyone used that reasoning.


always good for a diversion though.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Toews has proclaimed that every single one of Canada's provincial and federal privacy commissioners who together expressed their serious reservations with this legislation are supportive of child pornography and organized crime.
> 
> It's the sign of someone who has no argument to provide when they resort to this kind of over-top, fear-mongering rhetoric. It's a sad comment on Harper's government that an ass like this would be in cabinet or have any kind of responsibility in government.
> 
> This legislation will pass now because the Cons have a majority and aren't going to allow a free vote on something like this. And it will be appealed to the Supreme Court eventually on a charter argument. And I'd say it will lose that appeal, if we have a Supreme Court with any integrity. And it will have cost a boatload of money and for many months or years have weakened Canadians right to privacy and to not be illegally searched.
> 
> There's a reason that in a democracy we have laws in place that say the police can't break down your door and rifle through your papers without a warrant and a good legal reason they can justify to a judge. This law will dispense with that.
> 
> Edit: fixed awkward sentence.


an excellent reason why I much prefer a minority parliament. This absolute power stuff -always- gets abused, and this is a prime example of this.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Premier Dalton McGuinty says he wants executives in Ontario's broader public sector to "lead by example" when it comes to their high salaries.

He says executives who run the province's hospitals, colleges, universities, school boards and social services need to do their part to slay the deficit."

I am surprised that this was not on JNN. It is this sort of backwards thinking that will ruin Ontario. Better to cut the wages of the lowest rung on the economic ladder than the higher ends. Cutting at the top will only mean less money will trickle on down. They should eliminate OHIP coverage to most medical procedures and operations for people over 65, eliminate full-day kindergarten, demand better transfer payments from the have provinces (e.g., let St.John's pay for any and all snow clean-ups in Toronto and the GTA), and end all unionized public service pay increases for the rest of this decade. This would then impact the old, the young and those in between. That would be a start.



McGuinty hints at pay freeze for public sector execs - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "Premier Dalton McGuinty says he wants executives in Ontario's broader public sector to "lead by example" when it comes to their high salaries.
> 
> He says executives who run the province's hospitals, colleges, universities, school boards and social services need to do their part to slay the deficit."
> 
> I am surprised that this was not on JNN. It is this sort of backwards thinking that will ruin Ontario. Better to cut the wages of the lowest rung on the economic ladder than the higher ends. Cutting at the top will only mean less money will trickle on down. They should eliminate OHIP coverage to most medical procedures and operations for people over 65, eliminate full-day kindergarten, demand better transfer payments from the have provinces (e.g., let St.John's pay for any and all snow clean-ups in Toronto and the GTA), and end all unionized public service pay increases for the rest of this decade. This would then impact the old, the young and those in between. That would be a start.
> 
> 
> 
> McGuinty hints at pay freeze for public sector execs - Toronto - CBC News


your education camp experience has paid off brother G. Now you too can see that example like catepillar etc., are truly, the way of the future. The corporations need our tax dollars for larger profits for the golden showers, and the workers must learn to live within their means like true libertarians, and accept 50% pay cuts. After all, a pay cut is almost as good as a tax cut.


----------



## MacGuiver

Dr.G. said:


> "Premier Dalton McGuinty says he wants executives in Ontario's broader public sector to "lead by example" when it comes to their high salaries.
> 
> He says executives who run the province's hospitals, colleges, universities, school boards and social services need to do their part to slay the deficit."


Good on Dalton! Its a start, but he's going to have to chop a lot deeper before we can save the sinking ship.
He may want to revisit his green energy fiasco as well before it bleeds the province dry and fixed income seniors are forced to start cooking dinner on open fires. 

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Good on Dalton! Its a start, but he's going to have to chop a lot deeper before we can save the sinking ship.
> He may want to revisit his green energy fiasco as well before it bleeds the province dry and *fixed income seniors are forced to start cooking dinner on open fires*.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


I think Harper and co is already working on making that happen.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> your education camp experience has paid off brother G. Now you too can see that example like catepillar etc., are truly, the way of the future. The corporations need our tax dollars for larger profits for the golden showers, and the workers must learn to live within their means like true libertarians, and accept 50% pay cuts. After all, a pay cut is almost as good as a tax cut.


Well, we shall have to wait to see if this is all true .................. when it comes out on JNN then we can "take it to the reality bank". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

MacGuiver said:


> Good on Dalton! Its a start, but he's going to have to chop a lot deeper before we can save the sinking ship.
> He may want to revisit his green energy fiasco as well before it bleeds the province dry and fixed income seniors are forced to start cooking dinner on open fires.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


Well, there is always the "Ontario Opportunities Fund". I suggested that my son, who is now living in Toronto, donate to this fund on his income tax return, since ON is a "have not" province and his income was earned in NL, a "have" province. I reminded him that for years, ON helped out NL when we were in need. He reluctantly agreed to send some of his refund to help out ON. Not sure where this money actually goes, however.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> And yet, the reasoning used by some people in the gun thread seems to be: "I have nothing to hide from the government, why would I want a gun."


How would having a gun protect you from having your on-line activities monitored, your cell phone tracked, or being otherwise surveilled by the New Harper Government? Even if we were talking about the police physically coming into your house and going through your things looking for evidence that you might have done something, how could a gun be of any use to you? Are you planning on shooting the cops? Good luck with that.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> How would having a gun protect you from having your on-line activities monitored, your cell phone tracked, or being otherwise surveilled by the New Harper Government? Even if we were talking about the police physically coming into your house and going through your things looking for evidence that you might have done something, how could a gun be of any use to you? Are you planning on shooting the cops? Good luck with that.


Not at all. It was the notion that any invasion of privacy could be justified by: "Why should I worry, I have nothing to fear?"


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> It was the notion that any invasion of privacy could be justified by: "Why should I worry, I have nothing to fear?"


Okay, I'm not getting it. You're going to have to walk that back for me because I now have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## kps

bryanc said:


> Okay, I'm not getting it. You're going to have to walk that back for me because I now have no idea what you're talking about.


It's how they chip away at your freedoms and by-pass the Charter, bryanc. 

*If you have nothing to hide...why don't you:*

--let us in and search without a warrant
--give us a DNA sample that'll be permanently placed into the National DNA Databank
--allow us to monitor your internet usage to make sure you're not a pedophile.
--etc, etc..


----------



## i-rui

^^ok, now tie that in with what anyone supposedly said in the "gun thread".


----------



## eMacMan

What everyone forgets when they say they have nothing to hide, is that the government has the power to change what is currently OK to something that is illegal and can even do it retroactively and without bothering to tell any one.

Even without the backroom manipulations, I seriously doubt that even the best lawyer in the country has a solid handle on everything that is illegal in Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> Okay, I'm not getting it. You're going to have to walk that back for me because I now have no idea what you're talking about.


Macfury was paraphrasing the great comments of his favorite US president -- Franklin Roosevelt. 

F.D.R.'s First Inaugural Speech: Nothing to fear - YouTube


----------



## bryanc

kps said:


> It's how they chip away at your freedoms and by-pass the Charter, bryanc.


Yes, I get that. Which is why I object to the invasion of privacy and un warranted surveillance. I just don't get what it has to do with guns.


----------



## kps

The Firearms Act in the form of C-68 skirts the Charter see the two part post #270 & 271 in the gun thread.


----------



## kps

You can tell the CBC how you feel by voting here:

Should police have access to ISP customer data without a warrant? - Your Community


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> You can tell the CBC how you feel by voting here:
> 
> Should police have access to ISP customer data without a warrant? - Your Community


Interestingly over 90% against. Just not buying that 90% of Canadians are part of the Kiddie Porn conspiracy.


----------



## steviewhy

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

steviewhy said:


> Jesus the Tories are going to need *even more jails* at this rate.


They gotta do something do justify all those new billion dollar prisons they say we need. If there's no crime wave now, they'll just invent new laws.

Harper did his part today by defending in the House the stupid inflexible mandatory minimum sentencing law. They want to put a guy in jail because he posed for a Facebook pic with a loaded gun. 

Stupid, -- yeah. Illegal -- oh yeah. Requiring 3 years in prison according to the mandatory minimum sentence laws -- ridiculous. The judge refused to hand down that sentence but Harper says the law must to be followed. 

3 years in prison at $100,000 per year -- great use of the taxpayer's money. If the guy, who was a first time offender, isn't a criminal now, he will be in 3 years.

Toronto judge shoots down 'abhorrent' mandatory gun sentence


----------



## kps

.


----------



## kps

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> They gotta do something do justify all those new billion dollar prisons they say we need. If there's no crime wave now, they'll just invent new laws.
> 
> Harper did his part today by defending in the House the stupid inflexible mandatory minimum sentencing law. They want to put a guy in jail because he posed for a Facebook pic with a loaded gun.
> 
> Stupid, -- yeah. Illegal -- oh yeah. Requiring 3 years in prison according to the mandatory minimum sentence laws -- ridiculous. The judge refused to hand down that sentence but Harper says the law must to be followed.
> 
> 3 years in prison at $100,000 per year -- great use of the taxpayer's money. If the guy, who was a first time offender, isn't a criminal now, he will be in 3 years.


Ummmm you do realize it wasn't Harper and the Cons who made those mandatory gun law sentences, but it's nice to see I;m not the only one who wants to get did of Bill C-68. :lmao:


----------



## kps

The "shiny pony" Justin Trudeau says Quebec separatism no longer the boogeyman...Harper is. Is this guy really as stupid as he appears?

Trudeau says sovereignty less of a bogeyman now - Politics - CBC News

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> Ummmm you do realize it wasn't Harper and the Cons who made those mandatory gun law sentences, but it's nice to see I;m not the only one who wants to get did of Bill C-68. :lmao:


Ummmm ... no kps, you're wrong. The particular mandatory minimum in this case became law in 2008 as a part of the Conservative's "Tackling Violent Crime Act".

When various parts of the Omnibus Crime bill which the Cons rushed through the House comes into force, there will be many more mandatory minimum sentences in place. This too will mean that in many other borderline cases judges will be compelled to follow the minimum sentence even if it is far too harsh for the crime. For example, 5 marijuana plants in your backyard getting you a trafficking charge and a mandatory minimum of 6 months in prison.

Gotta fill those prisons. $100,000 per prisoner per year. Thousands of new prisoners. Sorry can't afford your health care now, we've got scads of new criminals to take care of.


----------



## kps

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Ummmm ... no kps, you're wrong. The particular mandatory minimum in this case became law in 2008 as a part of the Conservative's "Tackling Violent Crime Act".
> 
> When various parts of the Omnibus Crime bill which the Cons rushed through the House comes into force, there will be many more mandatory minimum sentences in place. This too will mean that in many other borderline cases judges will be compelled to follow the minimum sentence even if it is far too harsh for the crime. For example, 5 marijuana plants in your backyard getting you a trafficking charge and a mandatory minimum of 6 months in prison.
> 
> Gotta fill those prisons. $100,000 per prisoner per year. Thousands of new prisoners. Sorry can't afford your health care now, we've got scads of new criminals to take care of.


From the horse's mouth:



> Twenty-nine offences in the Canadian Criminal Code carry a mandatory minimum sentence of imprisonment [1]. *The majority (19) of these mandatory minimum sentences were introduced with the enactment of Bill C-68, a package of firearms-related legislation in 1995. *In addition, there are also mandatory minimum sentences for other offences, such as child prostitution, betting, pool-making, and impaired driving. Every year in the Canadian Parliament, private member's bills are introduced to add new minimum sentences such as joy riding and repeat violent offenders. In light of this, it is surprising that it has been almost ten years since any amendments have been made to the Criminal Code that would add, repeal or modify the current statutory minimum sentences. With respect to the firearms offences, courts must impose a sentence of at least four years imprisonment if the offender has been convicted of one of the enumerated offences (see Appendix A). Currently, there is no discretion for judges to reduce the sentence for anyone convicted of an offence carrying a mandatory minimum sentence in Canada .


Linky: 2. Canada - Mandatory Sentences of Imprisonment in Common Law Jurisdictions: Some Representative Models


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> From the horse's mouth:


With few exceptions, it appears that these horror stories enter the collective consciousness of EhMacers the moment they're associated--even falsely--with Conservative politicians. Otherwise, it's time to hit the snooze button.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> With few exceptions, it appears that these horror stories enter the collective consciousness of EhMacers the moment they're associated--even falsely--with Conservative politicians. Otherwise, it's time to hit the snooze button.


Best to wait for it to be displayed via JNN. Then we will be able to have more confidence of the accuracy of the news item.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> From the horse's mouth:
> 
> Linky: 2. Canada - Mandatory Sentences of Imprisonment in Common Law Jurisdictions: Some Representative Models


that doesn't speak to the *specific* law & mandatory sentence that this judge was railing against :



> Rather than send Smickle away for three years, Molloy struck down the three-year minimum provision of the *Tackling Violent Crime Act of 2008*, saying that in this case it would constitute “cruel and unusual punishment” in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


Ontario judge is right to rule Ottawa?s mandatory sentencing law invalid - thestar.com

it is most definitely a conservative law. Unfortunately the liberals & ndp also voted for it. it's truly a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Our politicians should be doing away with mandatory sentences in all but the most heinous of crimes.


----------



## i-rui

petition to stop the online spying bill :

Stop Online Spying | OpenMedia.ca

hopefully everyone will sign it regardless of party affiliation. terrible bills are inexcusable.


----------



## Macfury

I've already sent a letter to my MP regarding the online spying bill.


----------



## groovetube

the cons seem to get particularly excited when they can find an example (a different one usually) of the liberals having done something similar.

This always, note ALWAYS makes it better.

See it's a win win for the citizens of this country.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I've already sent a letter to my MP regarding the online spying bill.


Good on ya. I'm still writing mine, but will send it today. Meanwhile, I signed the petition.


----------



## groovetube

Our government, showing us the definition of honesty again:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> that doesn't speak to the *specific* law & mandatory sentence that this judge was railing against :
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario judge is right to rule Ottawa?s mandatory sentencing law invalid - thestar.com
> 
> it is most definitely a conservative law. Unfortunately the liberals & ndp also voted for it. it's truly a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Our politicians should be doing away with mandatory sentences in all but the most heinous of crimes.


i-rui never mind them, it's the *fog of bore,* keeping the talk going about "it's not Conservative's policy and legislation." Stir up the muck, cloud the issue, repeat, repeat, repeat until "it must be true, no facts required."

Trying to have a rational conversation is never going to happen, sad really, but it just ain't gonna happen, simple as that.

The bore exclaims, a foolish statements, that was never ever expressed in a thread then go to ground, duck and cover. It's all part of the game, it's the fog of bore.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> that doesn't speak to the *specific* law & mandatory sentence that this judge was railing against :
> 
> Ontario judge is right to rule Ottawa?s mandatory sentencing law invalid - thestar.com
> 
> it is most definitely a conservative law. Unfortunately the liberals & ndp also voted for it. it's truly a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Our politicians should be doing away with mandatory sentences in all but the most heinous of crimes.


Now you're just picking nits. Regardless who did what in 2008 the ground work was laid in 1995 by the Liberals and that idiot who so much loved at Ottawa U.

The one thing we can both agree on is this:


> the liberals & ndp also voted for it. it's truly a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.


...and I'm not so sure about the good intentions.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> i-rui never mind them, it's the *fog of bore,* keeping the talk going about "it's not Conservative's policy and legislation." Stir up the muck, cloud the issue, repeat, repeat, repeat until "it must be true, no facts required."
> 
> Trying to have a rational conversation is never going to happen, sad really, but it just ain't gonna happen, simple as that.
> 
> The bore exclaims, a foolish statements, that was never ever expressed in a thread then go to ground, duck and cover. It's all part of the game, it's the fog of bore.


Clearly you're speaking from experience...:lmao:


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> Now you're just picking nits. Regardless who did what in 2008 the ground work was laid in 1995 by the Liberals and that idiot who so much loved at Ottawa U.
> 
> The one thing we can both agree on is this:
> ...and I'm not so sure about the good intentions.


He's not picking nits, he's stating fact, as was I.

Nobody, I think even the guy's lawyer, is saying he shouldn't have to live with some consequences for brandishing a weapon. He was found guilty of that. But it was the Conservatives bringing in the mandatory minimum that left the judge with imposing a ridiculous 3-year prison sentence for this, or doing what he did and bringing the law into question. And the fact is that Harper's push for mandatory minimum sentencing in other areas will result in similar ridiculousness.

Frankly, I think they gone down this road because they need more convicted criminals to justify their funnelling of resources into prisons. This is a political game they're playing. Their crime bills do not solve a real societal need, they serve a political agenda.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> He's not picking nits, he's stating fact, as was I.
> 
> Nobody, I think even the guy's lawyer, is saying he shouldn't have to live with some consequences for brandishing a weapon. He was found guilty of that. But it was the Conservatives bringing in the mandatory minimum that left the judge with imposing a ridiculous 3-year prison sentence for this, or doing what he did and bringing the law into question. And the fact is that Harper's push for mandatory minimum sentencing in other areas will result in similar ridiculousness.
> 
> Frankly, I think they gone down this road because they need more convicted criminals to justify their funnelling of resources into prisons. This is a political game they're playing. Their crime bills do not solve a real societal need, they serve a political agenda.


Well said.


----------



## i-rui

I know the conservative supporters wil hate this, but i think it's a brilliant idea to evoke election reform (the same type of reform Harper *use* to support)

Give it a read, and sign it if you think it's worthwhile :

Leadnow | Cooperate for Canada


----------



## The Doug

Careful, they'll introduce legislation to make internet polls illegal soon.


----------



## groovetube

no need, soon they can create a file on anyone who accessed the poll, and what their preferences were. Or if they made any inflammatory comments regarding our government.


----------



## kps

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> He's not picking nits, he's stating fact, as was I.
> 
> Nobody, I think even the guy's lawyer, is saying he shouldn't have to live with some consequences for brandishing a weapon. He was found guilty of that. But it was the Conservatives bringing in the mandatory minimum that left the judge with imposing a ridiculous 3-year prison sentence for this, or doing what he did and bringing the law into question. And the fact is that Harper's push for mandatory minimum sentencing in other areas will result in similar ridiculousness.
> 
> Frankly, I think they gone down this road because they need more convicted criminals to justify their funnelling of resources into prisons. This is a political game they're playing. Their crime bills do not solve a real societal need, they serve a political agenda.


Yeah, yeah...whatever. I'm not interested in the nuances of a bill that was a screw up from day one. I'd wish the whole thing gone and the way all of you are talking here so should you.

Hey, I'm a card carrying Con, it does not mean I support C-51. There's a lot in there that is against everything I believe in. Harper is turning into a frigging socialist. LOL

I rewarded the Cons for scrapping the LGR by joining and when the GG signs C-19 into law, I'll send another cheque for $19.19...and visit my local gun shop to purchase a .308 just for fun.


----------



## kps

Oh...and one more thing:

Vic Toews is an idiot and should just keep quiet. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

thank god you can buy a .308

The rest of their policies, meh.


----------



## BigDL

*Reprehensible Invasion of Privacy*

No one's private info should treated be like this. It's not government business, it's not in the public's interest, although the effect on pedophiles are still open to comment, perhaps Toews may be able to provide insight as he has in the past.

#ToewsDivorce?


CBCNews said:


> An anonymous Twitter account is targeting Public Safety Minister Vic Toews over an online surveillance bill that would give police more power to gather personal information about people.
> 
> The account is tweeting details of Toews’s acrimonious divorce, taking snippets from affidavits filed by Toews and his ex-wife.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> thank god you can buy a .308
> 
> The rest of their policies, meh.


Just don't call it a "sniper rifle" like the dippers would and we're golden.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Just don't call it a "sniper rifle" like the dippers would and we're golden.


Is that a fog bank I'm detecting?


----------



## groovetube

yep


----------



## CubaMark

...and now the Conservatives don't want Canadians to know how bad our air is... WTF?

Canada's air pollution experts moved to 'other priorities' - Technology & Science - CBC News



> Environment Canada has drastically cut back on its monitoring of air pollution that can cause health problems for Canadians, reassigning scientists involved in that monitoring to "other priorities."
> 
> In an email to CBC News, a department spokesman says Environment Canada is still providing "world class analysis" and will continue to "monitor the ozone through other means," but did not provide details on what those are.
> 
> The department was responding to recent warnings by leading atmospheric scientists that Canada's cuts to its ozone monitoring program are affecting the world's ability to monitor air quality and ozone depletion.





> Spokesman Mark Johnson replied in an email that the ozone scientists haven't lost their jobs but are working on other "priorities."
> 
> "The number of staff in measurement activities for the monitoring of ozone, tropospheric pollution and atmospheric transport of toxic chemicals has remained constant but their work now includes other departmental priorities," he said. "The distribution of funding and staff time has been reprofiled to better address the priorities of the department."
> 
> Johnson didn't say what those priorities are.





> Prof. Thomas Duck, a professor of atmospheric science and a LIDAR expert at Dalhousie University. "Air quality forecasters use that data, now they no longer have access to it."
> 
> In fact, it appears the LIDAR technology is sitting around unused right now. According to Environment Canada spokesman Mark Johnson, there is "no operational or service client for continuous LIDAR measurement."


(CBC)


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> Is that a fog bank I'm detecting?


Awww, did I hurt your _whittle dipper_ feelings?:lmao:


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> ...and now the Conservatives don't want Canadians to know how bad our air is... WTF?
> 
> Canada's air pollution experts moved to 'other priorities' - Technology & Science - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


...but CM, CO2 isn't pollution, any conservative will point this out anytime all the time.

We shouldn't concern ourselves with no stinking pollution, the stink of money should be our only concern, saith Our Glorious Leader.


----------



## i-rui

BigDL said:


> No one's private info should treated be like this. It's not government business, it's not in the public's interest, although the effect on pedophiles are still open to comment, perhaps Toews may be able to provide insight as he has in the past.
> 
> #ToewsDivorce?


here's the link for those interested :

https://twitter.com/#!/vikileaks30

also, saw this and lol'd.


----------



## groovetube

that is pretty funny.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> here's the link for those interested :
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/vikileaks30
> 
> also, saw this and lol'd.


:clap: :lmao::lmao:

The info gathered on the long form census is public information and must be shared. The info gathered on line ahh not so much, just to be shared with OGL's preferred partners.


----------



## jimbotelecom

.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> Oh...and one more thing:
> 
> Vic Toews is an idiot and should just keep quiet. :lmao:


Can't argue with that. :lmao:


----------



## i-rui

World?s leading rating firms question Canada?s budget cuts | Canada Politics - Yahoo! News


----------



## groovetube

Recent events have shown this government a disaster in shoe leather. Most hard line conservatives seem to be content that they got rid of the LGR, so, while they're content with that, the rest of it, you know, the really important stuff, going down the crapper.

But that's ok, they got rid of the LGR. Hard to imagine, being that simple.


----------



## groovetube

This may be a few days old, but I missed it.
Is this the end of Canadian medicare? | hilltimes.com

Cuts to federal health transfers in 2017. Seems a nice issue handed to the opposition for the election 2015. 

It's far more important to spend all those billions in new jails in the useless new crime bill, as well as pandering more to the whims of the rich corporations. Who's side is this government really on?

Certainly not the average hard working Canadian tax payer, clearly.


----------



## Macfury

You missed it--that was ancient good news. Not that (Dr.) Hedy Fry has any skin in the game.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper and CONS - label opposition - Radicals, Pornographers, Extremists*

Security services deem environmental, animal-rights groups 'extremist' threats - The Globe and Mail

Do I see a trend here? Happy with the minority majority?

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, who voted for these CON artists?"


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Do I see a trend here?


Yes. CSIS has too much power, whether under Paul Martin--when those assessments were first leveled in 2005, or under Stephen Harper


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You missed it--that was ancient good news. Not that (Dr.) Hedy Fry has any skin in the game.


So listen up everyone, macfury would like everyone to just shut up about something regardless of how important it may be, if you didn't catch it the day it came out.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> So listen up everyone, macfury would like everyone to just shut up about something regardless of how important it may be, if you didn't catch it the day it came out.



No, feel free to post at will. Mid-January was a happy time for me, and your post brings me back to the days when that news item was fresh.


----------



## groovetube

Actually the article, if you clicked on it, was Feb. 06, 2012 I thought it was worth posting, as -I_, don't consider the issue now dead, as you seem to. Or want it to be.

But don't let that stop you from trolling and being the jackarse you generally are in this thread.

Back on topic, after the usual "No! I will not have bad things said about my favorite government!"


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> But don't let that stop you from trolling and being the jackarse you generally are in this thread.
> 
> Back on topic, after the usual "No! I will not have bad things said about my favorite government!"


This thread has not been about Canadian politics for months now. If you truly want to be on subject, re-name the thread "Bashin' The Conservatives" which is the single purpose of most posters here.

Add to that the name-calling above and who do you think is the real jackarse?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> This thread has not been about Canadian politics for months now. If you truly want to be on subject, re-name the thread "Bashin' The Conservatives" which is the single purpose of most posters here.
> 
> Add to that the name-calling above and who do you think is the real jackarse?


Excuse me, but aren't the conservatives, the government of Canada? Are we now setting a rule that says we cannot criticize because, well the liberals are out and the conservatives are in?

When the liberals were in government, they were criticized just as much, so the conservative supporters will just have to get used to their government being criticized as well.

As for the troll, for every derail he posts, I'll mock it. He's free to address the topic at any time, though it seems that's rather difficult for him.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Excuse me, but aren't the conservatives, the government of Canada? Are we now setting a rule that says we cannot criticize because, well the liberals are out and the conservatives are in?
> 
> When the liberals were in government, they were criticized just as much, so the conservative supporters will just have to get used to their government being criticized as well.


Get with the times, gt. Stephen Harper rules, not the conservatives

And lest anyone forgets who is in charge, a directive went out to public servants last year that “Government of Canada” in federal communications should be replaced by “Harper Government.”

Public servants from four different line departments told The Canadian Press and JNN that the instruction came from “the Centre” — meaning the Prime Minister’s Office and the Privy Council Office that serves the Prime Minister.

Still, to blast the conservatives means to blast PM Harper ............ and to blast him is not wise. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Get with the times, gt. Stephen Harper rules.
> 
> And lest anyone forgets who is in charge, a directive went out to public servants last year that “Government of Canada” in federal communications should be replaced by “Harper Government.”
> 
> Public servants from four different line departments told The Canadian Press and JNN that the instruction came from “the Centre” — meaning the Prime Minister’s Office and the Privy Council Office that serves the Prime Minister.


oops. That could be a very serious mistake on my part.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> oops. That could be a very serious mistake on my part.


Yes. Still, you have now been forewarned. Proceed at your own risk.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Actually the article, if you clicked on it, was Feb. 06, 2012 I thought it was worth posting, as -I_, don't consider the issue now dead, as you seem to. Or want it to be.


Hey, groove, what do you think about this Munsinger thing? Pretty hot stuff.

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search


----------



## groovetube

Let's see, 10 days old, vs 36 years old.

The furious waving of the hands in overdrive, to ensure no one talks about an important topic facing us -currently-.

Sorry pal, but your humor falls short, again. But nice attempt at deflection lest anyone actually reply to a current concern though eh!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> But nice attempt at deflection lest anyone actually reply to a current concern though eh!


They already replied, several weeks ago. But go ahead. They may be feeling nostalgic


----------



## jimbotelecom

*"Bashin' The CONS" & Name Calling - Harper - pornography, radicals, extremists*

Some people have had enough scallywags!

I think it's too early in the Harper Government mandate, but it's a start

Petition To Depose Stephen Harper

Brought to you by JNN - "bashin the cons is getting easier!"


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> They already replied, several weeks ago. But go ahead. They may be feeling nostalgic


Ok we understand that it's painful for you to continue to discuss an issue that will affect us in the future. However some of us think it may be important to raise the issue again as it's current.

I know it's something that makes you angry enough to derail, but there's no need to be that angry.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Some people have had enough scallywags!
> 
> I think it's too early in the Harper Government mandate, but it's a start


That's not news.

But this is. You know Cons are on the wrong track when even the Sun starts to criticize them.

Say hello to Big Brother Government | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> You missed it--that was ancient good news. Not that (Dr.) Hedy Fry has any skin in the game.





Macfury said:


> Yes. CSIS has too much power, whether under Paul Martin--when those assessments were first leveled in 2005, or under Stephen Harper





SINC said:


> This thread has not been about Canadian politics for months now. If you truly want to be on subject, re-name the thread "Bashin' The Conservatives" which is the single purpose of most posters here.
> 
> Add to that the name-calling above and who do you think is the real jackarse?





Macfury said:


> Hey, groove, what do you think about this Munsinger thing? Pretty hot stuff.
> 
> The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search


AH! The fog of Bore. 

Just need to chum the water murky, it is good enough to cast dispersions. No need to make a point or produce a fact, just need to call into question other information.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

This thread has been going nowhere for ages. While I know that all the ad hominem, whining and complaining is entertaining for some, I find it mostly boring. It's called "The Canadian Political Thread", how about we drop all the side issues and discuss politics?

The image is called "The Hierarchy of Disagreement" and points out the best ways for people to reasonably disagree with each other, with the worst ways at the bottom. 

A modest proposal: how about we try and restrict our discussion to the top three methods and avoid the bottom four?


----------



## Macfury

I've seen enough "contradiction" in this thread to last me a lifetime. Sounds like a good idea.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> I've seen enough "contradiction" in this thread to last me a lifetime. Sounds like a good idea.


That's a start.

I have to go off and earn my daily bread, I'll check in later.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> That's a start.
> 
> I have to go off and earn my daily bread, I'll check in later.


Yep and I notice that name-calling is the 'lowest of the low'.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yep and I notice that name-calling is the 'lowest of the low'.


A "bully" like you ought to know, SINC.


----------



## groovetube

as if either of you are above this. I seem to recall SInc, it was you, that caused a good member (Manny)here to leave after pretty much calling him a drug addict.

I see he still hasn't returned. And macfury you are the biggest troll here, inciting all kinds of nonsense for your entertainment. So both of you playing 'highest of the high' is laughable.

My posting of the item about the cons cutting health transfers is indeed, about "politics". It's about the priorities of this conservative government, but instead of the discussion going there, you macfury, decided to be childish about it, and mock the fact that it's a news item that's a week old. So it was you, that turned what could have been a political discussion (unless one doesn't consider the spending priorities of a government, politics...) into a 3 ring circus.

A criticism of a government's policies, isn't whining.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> as if either of you are above this. I seem to recall SInc, it was you, that caused a good member (Manny)here to leave after pretty much calling him a drug addict.


Prove it or retract it. I did no such thing.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Prove it or retract it. I did no such thing.


http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/96325-disastrous-war-drugs-10.html#post1119200

And I will NOT retract it. I remember it well. He was really insulted. But it didn't seem to matter to you.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/96325-disastrous-war-drugs-10.html#post1119200
> 
> And I will NOT retract it. I remember it well. He was really insulted. But it didn't seem to matter to you.





ehMax said:


> Personally, I think you should just admit it was intentional and issue an apology.
> 
> If someone strongly implied that you supported alcoholism or drunk driving because of your viewpoint for example, I'd request the same thing to them.





SINC said:


> I have edited all my posts to make it clear that I in no way meant to insinuate Manny was a drug user. screature understood that much, you and Manny didn't.
> 
> Any rational person has to know that I could not possibly make a statement like that because I don't know Manny personally, nor anything about his lifestyle.
> 
> I apologize for not being clear enough in my posts, which resulted in some people not understanding my real intent.


I guess you missed this part. None of my remarks were aimed at any specific person. Had I done so, I would have been banned.

Now, retract it.


----------



## groovetube

it was serious enough that ehmax stepped in, and MannyP left the site.

I will not retract. Don't give me this song and dance either of you are above sniping and insults. I'll return certainly, but don't play as though others are the responsible parties.

I'm happy to admit I've played the game too, and happy to see a return to civility. But the sniping and trolling occurred long before I got here. I was warned about macfury in PM years ago.

Just saying it as it is.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> it was serious enough that ehmax stepped in, and MannyP left the site.
> 
> I will not retract. Don't give me this song and dance either of you are above sniping and insults. I'll return certainly, but don't play as though others are the responsible parties.
> 
> I'm happy to admit I've played the game too, and happy to see a return to civility. But the sniping and trolling occurred long before I got here. I was warned about macfury in PM years ago.
> 
> Just saying it as it is.


Don't drag Macfury into this. He had nothing to do with it. 

As for trolling and posting untruths, I can only laugh, but best I keep that to myself and not attack another member as you have just done.


----------



## mrjimmy

I see as good little ehMacer's we are vigorously upholding the 'bottom four'.

I expect nothing less.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Don't drag Macfury into this. He had nothing to do with it.
> 
> As for trolling and posting untruths, I can only laugh, but best I keep that to myself and not attack another member as you have just done.


You've missed the point. Neither parties can claim higher ground here. The difference between me and you is, I don't play guiltless here. I'm not the only one who has considered macfury a troll, but likely the only one to utter what I've heard from no less than 10 members here.

When we're all done playing guiltless, or, too above engaging what we feel utterly beneath us, perhaps we can get on with it.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> I see as good little ehMacer's we are vigorously upholding the 'bottom four'.
> 
> I expect nothing less.


you never know, there's always hope.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> you never know, there's always hope.


Dream a little dream...


----------



## jimbotelecom

A might set in their ways there slim. Wouldn't ya say?


----------



## mrjimmy

jimbotelecom said:


> A might set in their ways there slim. Wouldn't ya say?


Aren't we all?  it's just that some ways are better than others.


----------



## Macfury

I find it pretty funny that I've become so notorious--groovetube receiving private warnings about me. It's flattering, in a way, to know that I bear so much private message traffic. 

For Pete's sake folks, it's an online discussion site! Put it in perspective!


----------



## groovetube

oh from what I hear, I've been the subject a number of times. 

And really? A discussion forum you say! I suppose this is why you spend 90% of your posts trolling for reactions then. For pete's sake!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> oh from what I hear, I've been the subject a number of times.
> 
> And really? A discussion forum you say! I suppose this is why you spend 90% of your posts trolling for reactions then. For pete's sake!


You just can't leave that trolling accusation alone can you?

It says so much about you, in case you hadn't considered that. Every post you make about it is a troll in itself.


----------



## Macfury

SINC: Stop bullying him.


----------



## jimbotelecom

So sad. Backed into a corner protecting their precious CON dunderheads.
So very sad.


----------



## groovetube

yeah. Well it isn't fun having a mirror held in front of you for too long.

Hey I'm no spotless individual, but it just gets to a point where you gotta say something, and move on. Or do we pretend the elephant isn't in the room.

Perhaps I'm the buzzkill. Sorry.  Maybe a glass of scotch, a couple drops of water in, and put on an Elvin Jones record.


----------



## kps

I'd pay money if a few of you here joined THIS...


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> yeah. Well it isn't fun having a mirror held in front of you for too long.
> 
> Hey I'm no spotless individual, but it just gets to a point where you gotta say something, and move on. Or do we pretend the elephant isn't in the room.
> 
> Perhaps I'm the buzzkill. Sorry.  Maybe a glass of scotch, a couple drops of water in, and put on an Elvin Jones record.


Yup got some scotch. Not too much water. McCoy Tyner.

So sad. So so sad.

The horror...the horror!


----------



## groovetube

actually today where I had a meeting there was a laser fight thingy going on. I thinking like, paintball, or something. That'd be pretty funny.

Though I suspect no one will respect the shot once, it's over rule.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Yup got some scotch. Not too much water. McCoy Tyner.
> 
> So sad. So so sad.
> 
> The horror...the horror!


McCoy Tyner... very nice. 

and yes, two drops only.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Oh well, ... I tried.


----------



## groovetube

well, there's still hope.

I posted the bit about the cuts in health care upcoming, because I think that represents a very wrong set of priorities for Canada. 

While I am directing this to the current government, it should be noted that we may be facing similar policies here from Ontario's Liberals, who may be favoring useless corp tax cuts over cutting health.

Is there no sane party, who can balance the interests of people vs health? Must it always be a choice between people doing with far less themselves in order to feed the huge appetite of the rich corporation and all out gorging of the "trough" in social programs?

You'd think there are better minds to actually figure this one out. It doesn't seem to be about who spends more (or less) as it seems any of them are very capable of spending despite the howls of fiscal conservatism, as evidenced by our current government.


----------



## kps

Hope I'm not wasting my time posting this, considering that my previous "On Topic" posts were ignored in favour of the member's infighting.

As I said much earlier, Viv Toews should just stop talking...the more he talks the more stupid he appears.

Here's a good video from Sun's Brian Lilley talking about bill C-30...he's 100% on the mark and this is exactly what I've been saying here for a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg4m-gb8g04


----------



## MacGuiver

kps said:


> Hope I'm not wasting my time posting this, considering that my previous "On Topic" posts were ignored in favour of the member's infighting.
> 
> As I said much earlier, Viv Toews should just stop talking...the more he talks the more stupid he appears.
> 
> Here's a good video from Sun's Brian Lilley talking about bill C-30...he's 100% on the mark and this is exactly what I've been saying here for a while.



Agreed. Lilly sums it up nicely.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## kps

MacGuiver said:


> Agreed. Lilly sums it up nicely.


Loved Lilley's WTF look and tone with regards to Toews line about Europe. LOL


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Loved Lilley's WTF look and tone with regards to Toews line about Europe. LOL


I don't expect that there will be much talk about the Conservatives funding SUN-TV at this point. This is a bad deal all around.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I don't expect that there will be much talk about the Conservatives funding SUN-TV at this point. This is a bad deal all around.


What!!!! He's your guy man. Surely that has to make the big brother bill all hunky dory.

Seriously when even MF and Sinc admit it's a bad idea we know the Cons are way off base.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> What!!!! He's your guy man. Surely that has to make the big brother bill all hunky dory.
> 
> Seriously when even MF and Sinc admit it's a bad idea we know the Cons are way off base.


He was never "my guy"--just preferable to the sad sack that is now working at U of T. However, I wish that EhMacers were more vocal when this sort of abrogation of freedom was being promulgated by the the Martin or Chretien governments.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> He was never "my guy"--just preferable to the sad sack that is now working at U of T. However, I wish that EhMacers were more vocal when this sort of abrogation of freedom was being promulgated by the the Martin or Chretien governments.


Indeed I believe an almost identical bill was introduced under the Martin banner. Even without the Kiddie Porn pretext, it was every bit as reprehensible under the Liberal Banner.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> I wish that EhMacers were more vocal when this sort of abrogation of freedom was being promulgated by the the Martin or Chretien governments.


Ahh come on...that's ancient history dontcha know... and besides, that was all for the collective good.

also noticing how unusually quiet it is in here this morning from the lefty side. They must all be flabbergasted at the thought that Sun TV would actually criticize the Cons on an issue.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


>


CM, get with the program. "Do as I say, not as I do" is so 20th century. "I do what I want with a majority government .............. the Harper Government of Canada" is the creedo of today. You have been away for far too long. Paz, mi amigo.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> CM, get with the program. "Do as I say, not as I do" is so 20th century. "I do what I want with a majority government .............. the Harper Government of Canada" is the creedo of today. You have been away for far too long. Paz, mi amigo.


I believe that should be King Harpo or His Majesty. 

Remember: "Moral Bankruptcy is just a notion." (eMacMan)


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I believe that should be King Harpo or His Majesty.
> 
> Remember: "Moral Bankruptcy is just a notion." (eMacMan)


Nope. Officially, it is The Harper Government of Canada.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I don't expect that there will be much talk about the Conservatives funding SUN-TV at this point. This is a bad deal all around.


Actually Quebecor received close to half of what the CBC got just in the last 3 years. CBC lashes out at Quebecor’s $500-million in public subsidies - The Globe and Mail

And, I believe there was someone from the conservatives who went off to work with sunTV, I don't recall the storey but I think someone will refresh our memory.

But this was, an incredibly stupid move on the governments part, especially given their base of support. But it sure has given quite the smoke screen. Before anyone accuses me of wearing a tin foil hat, do we really think the Harper government was this dumb?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Actually Quebecor received close to half of what the CBC got just in the last 3 years. CBC lashes out at Quebecor’s $500-million in public subsidies - The Globe and Mail


In typical socialist fashion, the government of Canada plies all sorts of corporations with money--bad idea, but there you have it. It has nothing to do with the party in power.

However, anyone thinking the Harper government is "dumb" is seriously underestimating them. They don't represent my views much of the time, but they're playing a long game--not the short one.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> In typical socialist fashion, the government of Canada plies all sorts of corporations with money--bad idea, but there you have it. It has nothing to do with the party in power.
> 
> However, anyone thinking the Harper government is "dumb" is seriously underestimating them. They don't represent my views much of the time, but they're playing a long game--not the short one.


I was just saying there has been links to the conservative party in regards to sunTV, though after seeing some of it some time ago I wonder if they'd like to distance themselves a little from that.

And yes, I don't think Harper is dumb at all. Exactly.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> also noticing how unusually quiet it is in here this morning from the lefty side. They must all be flabbergasted at the thought that Sun TV would actually criticize the Cons on an issue.


even a broken clock is right twice a day.

side note: watching sun tv is bad for your brain.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> even a broken clock is right twice a day.
> 
> side note: watching sun tv is bad for your brain.


ha ha ha. Zing.

How could they not... be critical of this one.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> side note: watching sun tv is bad for your brain.


I like to have the lies served me daily balanced between the CBC and Sun.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CON - Fantino cheques to Tony at da club in the thousands - we have proof*

Can you make sense of this leak? | 404 System Error

It's a matter of time Fantino! Book him Dano!

Brought to you by JNN "Tony da tiger - chit".


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> I like to have the lies served me daily balanced between the CBC and Sun.


there's no comparison between the 2.

i'd compare sun tv to fox news in the states. both terribly biased networks not concerned with "news", but with their opinions on the news.

in the states there's a network called Current TV (Al Gore's network). that is the Left's version of Fox News. Really over the top and biased (and i say that even though i agree with most of what they say)

There is no network in canada like Current TV. The CBC is basically left of centre, and is the equivalent of CTV, which is right of centre.


----------



## Macfury

That's a good assessment.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> I like to have the lies served me daily balanced between the CBC and Sun.


:clap: OH! Wonderful! I shall rest easier tonight.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> :clap: OH! Wonderful! I shall rest easier tonight.


Don't really care how you rest...tonight or any other night...:baby:


----------



## kps

Either I stirred the nest







or lefties don't get up before 1PM.

I'm noticing one or two can't have a normal discussion, but only those who lean to the right are accused of being trolls.


----------



## groovetube

Well I don't think YOU are a troll, and you definitely lean to the right. But we had this converstion though. 

But KPS, sunTV is a baaaad example. Most right leaning people I know despise that station.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Don't really care how you rest...tonight or any other night...:baby:


 Thank-you, so wonderful to receive that insightful response.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Well I don't think YOU are a troll, and you definitely lean to the right. But we had this converstion though.
> 
> But KPS, sunTV is a baaaad example. Most right leaning people I know despise that station.


No denying that SunTV is mostly opinion, but comparing it to Fox is ridiculous. SunTV's budget no doubt dwarfs Fox, CBC, CTV, Global...probably even TVO lol. We can argue the standards of all journalists and their overt biases till the cows come home, but from time to time the I do enjoy a different opinion. The don't call "mainstream" media "mainstream" for nothing. Their cookie cutter news gets a bit boring.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> Thank-you, so wonderful to receive that insightful response.


Tit for tat...you deserve no less. :baby:


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> He was never "my guy"--just preferable to the sad sack that is now working at U of T. However, I wish that EhMacers were more vocal when this sort of abrogation of freedom was being promulgated by the the Martin or Chretien governments.


I brought it up here on ehMac when Martin was PM and his Justice Ministry laid the groundwork for what Harper eventually introduced. And many other ehMaccians, both right and left, condemned the idea of warrantless searches.

But I'm glad to see the Harper government appears to be backing away from this, although they still haven't committed to any changes and Toews is still defending it. I suspect it will be back again. Governments _really_ want this.

I was listening to some commentary on the proposed bill today and what many don't understand is, this is not just about your computer access and IP address. It's aimed towards mobile phones and smartphones. One of the bits of info police would be able to demand without a warrant is device identification numbers from the phones. They can sit at a protest, for example, and use a piece of equipment that collects these IDs by mimicking a cell tower. Then they can take those IDs to the mobile carriers and receive name, address, and other subscriber data and match those IDs to particular phones. With scanners they can then gather a wealth of data on every person they've ID'ed from the protest and compile large dossiers on all these people, all without one bit of judicial oversight. That's not just a police fishing trip, that's wholesale drift net seafood harvesting.

According to Toews, if you have a problem with any of that, you're siding with child pornographers.


----------



## SINC

We all should let our MPs know we object to provisions of the bill, but sadly not enough of us bother to protest. I wrote my MP protesting the contents of bill C-30 yesterday and got this reply today:



> Thank you for your correspondence regarding Bill C-30, Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act.
> 
> While technology has advanced significantly over the past four decades, the legal frameworks and investigative processes available to law enforcement have not kept pace with this evolution. I agree that although necessary in respect to the aforementioned, Bill C-30 in its current form is too broad in its scope.
> 
> This Bill will be going directly to committee before having its second reading in the House of Commons so that we may have an open discussion about how better to protect Canadians from online crime. All proposed provisions will balance investigative needs and privacy protection.
> 
> Bill C-30 does not permit or compel telecommunications service providers to maintain databases with information collected on Canadians. The Bill will allow the preservation of historical data for specific individuals for a short time, where authorities believe such data will assist in investigation.
> 
> If authorities are unable to produce a warrant within 21 days (for domestic investigations), the service provider is required to destroy the preserved computer data. A warrant is required to access the contents of any preserved data.
> 
> The RCMP, CSIS and other authorized agencies will maintain lists of service provider employees who may access lawful interceptions. These agencies will be able to request that individuals on this list undergo security assessments.
> 
> The basic subscriber information provision does not give law enforcement the lawful authority to monitor websites for the purpose of creating profiles of individuals or to track individuals
> 
> Requests for information from a telecommunications service provider about the website surfing activity or the real-time whereabouts of an individual would need to be made under productions orders, warrants or wiretap authorizations contained in the Criminal Code.
> 
> As a Member of the Standing Committee on Public Safety, I will work to ensure that the importance of privacy for law-abiding Canadians is preserved, while balancing the need to update law enforcement tools and weed out internet predators.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> Brent Rathgeber J.D., Q.C.
> Member of Parliament
> Edmonton – St. Albert


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I brought it up here on ehMac when Martin was PM and his Justice Ministry laid the groundwork for what Harper eventually introduced.


Yes, I remember.


----------



## Ottawaman

This thread needs more cowbell.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> We all should let our MPs know we object to provisions of the bill, but sadly not enough of us bother to protest. I wrote my MP protesting the contents of bill C-30 yesterday and got this reply today:


Good on you, SINC. 

It seems, assuming that your MP is reflecting government policy, the Cons really will be backing off on this.

I agree that law enforcement may need new tools given so much communication takes place online. It's not the same as just tapping a phone wire anymore. But I simply don't see any need for this to be done without the proper oversight a warrant provides.

If warrants take too long for police to get, then simply put in some measure that make it easier, -- have a team of regional judges who are on call 24 hours -- have the ability to teleconference with them so that submissions can be made by any law enforcement members outside of the major centres. If the cops are truly engaging in serious investigations of potential criminals, then they should have no problem explaining that within the proper constraints of our legal system.

It's interesting to note that when these "lawful access" provisions were first proposed under the Liberals, it was defended as necessary under the threat of terrorism in the shadow of 9/11. Now, that won't sell it anymore so they need to make the same proposals under the threat of internet predators and child porn. This leads me to believe that this was never about either of these bogeymen, but simply about expanding the surveillance power of the state. 

I haven't read it, but I understand the new bill doesn't mention internet predators or children anywhere except in the brand new title of the act. And Toews mouthing off on the subject show that this was the initial strategy used to hopefully slap down opposition to it. I'm glad most Canadians saw through this smokescreen.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Ottawaman said:


> This thread needs more cowbell.


Babies ... before we're done here ... y'all be wearing gold-plated diapers.


----------



## BigDL

Ottawaman said:


> This thread needs more cowbell.


:clap::lmao::lmao: +1 where's that dang like button.


----------



## Ottawaman

Online surveillance bill opens door for Big Brother
Section 34 gives Orwellian powers to government-appointed 'inspectors'

Good article from Terry Milewski, you remember him pissing off the CPC party while out on the election trail. 

I'm not enjoying article 34 or the entire concept for that matter.


----------



## BigDL

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good on you, SINC.
> 
> It seems, assuming that your MP is reflecting government policy, the Cons really will be backing off on this.
> 
> I agree that law enforcement may need new tools given so much communication takes place online. It's not the same as just tapping a phone wire anymore. But I simply don't see any need for this to be done without the proper oversight a warrant provides.
> 
> If warrants take too long for police to get, then simply put in some measure that make it easier, -- have a team of regional judges who are on call 24 hours -- have the ability to teleconference with them so that submissions can be made by any law enforcement members outside of the major centres. If the cops are truly engaging in serious investigations of potential criminals, then they should have no problem explaining that within the proper constraints of our legal system.
> 
> It's interesting to note that when these "lawful access" provisions were first proposed under the Liberals, it was defended as necessary under the threat of terrorism in the shadow of 9/11. Now, that won't sell it anymore so they need to make the same proposals under the threat of internet predators and child porn. This leads me to believe that this was never about either of these bogeymen, but simply about expanding the surveillance power of the state.
> 
> I haven't read it, but I understand the new bill doesn't mention internet predators or children anywhere except in the brand new title of the act. And Toews mouthing off on the subject show that this was the initial strategy used to hopefully slap down opposition to it. I'm glad most Canadians saw through this smokescreen.


I have heard in the media recently, (since Toews introduced the bill in question) the judge on call 24/7 idea already exists and warrant are communicated verbally when required. I think it was on CBC Radio Noon broadcast and the person providing the information was a lawyer with some expertise in the field.

I did a little searching and found the interview on Maritime Noon Maritime Noon BroadcastWhen you go to the page click on the (Listen Hyperlink to listen to the show) Please note that the Item regarding Privacy Law starts at about a minute and thirty seconds with context for the interview. The Interview with Lawyer Dave Fraser starts at about 3 minute and 45 seconds. The comments regarding "judges being available presently," can found around 7 min. 25 sec. mark.

It is an interesting listen for information on the entire issue of protecting citizens and our rights under the law. Please consider giving it a listen, sorry I can't just give you the interview with the Lawyer but if anyone knows how and can add that bit to the conversation please do.


----------



## BigDL

*Judges Available 24/7 for Warrants Now, per Interest Interview With Lawyer*

*I did a little searching and found the interview on Maritime Noon Maritime Noon Broadcast When you go to the page click on the (Listen Hyperlink to listen to the show) Please note that the Item regarding Privacy Law, starts at about a minute and thirty seconds with context for the interview. The Interview with Lawyer Dave Fraser starts at about 3 minute and 45 seconds. The comments regarding "judges being available presently, 24/7" can found around 7 min. 25 sec. mark.

It is an interesting listen for information on the entire issue of protecting citizens and our rights under the law. Please consider giving it a listen, sorry I can't provide just the interview with the Lawyer but if anyone knows how and can add that bit to the conversation please go for it.

* I did add this as edit to my previous post but thought this might catch more attention as a separate post


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - cracks begin to show among the deformed vs. red tory coalition*

Former top aide to Harper provides peek into simmering Tory tensions - Winnipeg Free Press

Good on the former aid for telling the truth.

Brought to you by JNN - "exposing the CONS for what they are - chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - the head gagger*

Scientists and journalists call on Harper to end gag order

Let scientists show their findings - let the facts lead to good policy.

Brought to you by JNN - "4 more years of these bigots - chit"


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good on you, SINC.
> 
> It seems, assuming that your MP is reflecting government policy, the Cons really will be backing off on this.
> 
> I agree that law enforcement may need new tools given so much communication takes place online. It's not the same as just tapping a phone wire anymore. But I simply don't see any need for this to be done without the proper oversight a warrant provides.
> 
> If warrants take too long for police to get, then simply put in some measure that make it easier, -- have a team of regional judges who are on call 24 hours -- have the ability to teleconference with them so that submissions can be made by any law enforcement members outside of the major centres. If the cops are truly engaging in serious investigations of potential criminals, then they should have no problem explaining that within the proper constraints of our legal system.
> 
> It's interesting to note that when these "lawful access" provisions were first proposed under the Liberals, it was defended as necessary under the threat of terrorism in the shadow of 9/11. Now, that won't sell it anymore so they need to make the same proposals under the threat of internet predators and child porn. *This leads me to believe that this was never about either of these bogeymen, but simply about expanding the surveillance power of the state. *
> 
> I haven't read it, but I understand the new bill doesn't mention internet predators or children anywhere except in the brand new title of the act. And Toews mouthing off on the subject show that this was the initial strategy used to hopefully slap down opposition to it. I'm glad most Canadians saw through this smokescreen.


both the libs and now the cons have used fear effectively to push what they want. I think the cons perhaps a little more, ie: the soon to be very expensive crime bill.

Perhaps Harper's success isn't so much a rise in conservatism in Canada, but a realization among the left that the liberals aren't much better and so a bit of an exodus to the NDP, (and green) creating a much larger vote split.


----------



## dstanic

I voted PC the last couple of elections (basically since I could vote) and I was thrilled when they won majority. I like their fiscal views and ideas for lower taxes. But it ends there- their whole view on the internet with bill C11 and C30 I find appalling! Next they will be putting plexiglass walls on people's houses! I despise child porn as much as the next guy, and think child molesters should tossed off the CN tower, but I value my privacy more than anything else. Living in Canada I don't want to become some kind of tin foil hat wearing weirdo and I hope the majority of Canadians share this view! The only way Harper could get my respect back is if he fired Vic Toews and scrapped these stupid bills.


----------



## Dr.G.

dstanic said:


> I voted PC the last couple of elections (basically since I could vote) and I was thrilled when they won majority. I like their fiscal views and ideas for lower taxes. But it ends there- their whole view on the internet with bill C11 and C30 I find appalling! Next they will be putting plexiglass walls on people's houses! I despise child porn as much as the next guy, and think child molesters should tossed off the CN tower, but I value my privacy more than anything else. Living in Canada I don't want to become some kind of tin foil hat wearing weirdo and I hope the majority of Canadians share this view! The only way Harper could get my respect back is if he fired Vic Toews and scrapped these stupid bills.


dstanic, you might like this editorial from today's Telegram here in St.John's. We are in agreement re child molesters and our value for privacy. 

The world according to Toews - Columns - The Telegram


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

BigDL said:


> *I did a little searching and found the interview on Maritime Noon Maritime Noon Broadcast When you go to the page click on the (Listen Hyperlink to listen to the show) Please note that the Item regarding Privacy Law, starts at about a minute and thirty seconds with context for the interview. The Interview with Lawyer Dave Fraser starts at about 3 minute and 45 seconds. The comments regarding "judges being available presently, 24/7" can found around 7 min. 25 sec. mark.
> 
> It is an interesting listen for information on the entire issue of protecting citizens and our rights under the law. Please consider giving it a listen, sorry I can't provide just the interview with the Lawyer but if anyone knows how and can add that bit to the conversation please go for it.
> 
> * I did add this as edit to my previous post but thought this might catch more attention as a separate post


Interesting, because I have heard & read several people arguing in support of lawful access specifically citing that it takes too long to get warrants as a reason this legislation is needed. If what Mr. Fraser says is correct then it leads me to believe that complaints about not being able to get warrants coming from the law enforcement and CSIS community has more to do with judges not allowing them to go on unlawful fishing expeditions.


----------



## SINC

And then today, we get this little surprise:

Toews surprised by content of online surveillance bill - Canada - CBC News

Toews is toast, stick a fork in him.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> And then today, we get this little surprise:
> 
> Toews surprised by content of online surveillance bill - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Toews is toast, stick a fork in him.




"Toews stepped back from controversial remarks he made last Monday inside the House of Commons after Liberal public safety critic Francis Scarpaleggia asked about the privacy concerns arising from the proposed internet surveillance bill.

Toews responded by saying Scarpaleggia could "either stand with us or with the child pornographers."

When asked by Solomon if he would aplogize for those remarks, Toews said "I've thought about this very carefully, and if fair minded Canadians have come to the conclusion that my comments, that I made in the heat of Parliamentary debate, were not appropriate, I'm prepared to accept their judgment."" 

What if "fair minded Canadians" want him to be toasted???? XX)


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Interesting. It looks like the Cons have really stepped in the cowpie on this one. It looks like they've completely misread the public mood and thought that a hyperbolic appeal to internet predators would silence critics of this bill.

Toews, who I assume is speaking for the Harper government, has now said this bill will go back to committee. I have read that sending a bill to committee at this stage (1st reading) is seen as basically asking the Opposition to help them _write_ a bill and is an unprecedented move by a majority government. 

If that is the case, it shows that the Cons are trying to retreat from this at a full gallop.

I think that every time that these lawful access proposals have been floated and entered the public discussion, since the time the Liberals first brought them in, the government has been surprised by the public backlash. That gives me with a small modicum of hope.


----------



## Macfury

It also shows that, despite having a majority, the Conservatives are willing to change course.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> It also shows that, despite having a majority, the Conservatives are willing to change course.


If they didn't, with the hits they are taking on this, they'd have to be pretty thick. When it gets to the point where even their own supporters are telling them they're off base they need to look at what they're doing. 

I think it shows that despite having a majority government, if the majority of the public objects to something the Harper Government does, we certainly have the ability to clearly let them know this. 

Too bad we don't always use that ability.


----------



## dstanic

Macfury said:


> It also shows that, despite having a majority, the Conservatives are willing to change course.


If they don't, then we could have Justin Trudeau as PM in 2015 :lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> If they didn't, with the hits they are taking on this, they'd have to be pretty thick. When it gets to the point where even their own supporters are telling them they're off base they need to look at what they're doing.
> 
> I think it shows that despite having a majority government, if the majority of the public objects to something the Harper Government does, we certainly have the ability to clearly let them know this.
> 
> Too bad we don't always use that ability.


It's called Participatory Democracy. For whatever reason it seems to cause the corporate lovers to cower in fear. 

I like the idea and would like to see more of it. 

If we tackled defense mis-spending in a like manner we might perhaps prevent Canada from following the Greek example of spending so much on weapons that we have to screw our own citizens.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It also shows that, despite having a majority, the Conservatives are willing to change course.


I hardly think they had much of a choice here, it isn't as if they suddenly became a government willing to consider other viewpoints other than strictly their own. They got hammered by all sides including their strong base.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - expense $27k per day in London UK selling TARPIPE benefits*

Feds spent nearly $54,000 on pro-oil lobbying retreat over two days in London, England | Canada.com

$14k contract to learn how to lobby

Yep that's the new Harper government!

Brought to you by JNN - "exposing CON waste in the HARPER government chit"


----------



## groovetube

well you know, subsidizing oil for over 100 years, oil still hasn't proven itself to profitable yet, so we need to continue pumping lots and lots of cash there.

Oh by my looooord thunderin jesus don't TELL me about sinking some cash in a new technology like green energy for the last few years because, welldogonnit if an energy technology is viable well then let the market forces dictate how viable it is!

Makes perfect sense.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - propping up commies in China and radical islam in Iran*

Canada's Iran sanctions stop at the Alberta oilpatch | Full Comment | National Post

Hypocrites? The dickens you say?

Brought to you by JNN - "stop the CON demolition of Canada -chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper appointed Toews to cabinet - CON incompetence*

Toews surprised by content of online surveillance bill - Politics - CBC News

Imagine....this knuckle dragger has a law degree and he doesn't know his own legislation!!!:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Brought to you by JNN - "sometimes you just have to shake your head - who voted for these numbskulls - chit?"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - Harper muzzle on Canadian science making international news*

BBC News - Canadian government is 'muzzling its scientists'

Take the muzzle off the truth Harper!

Brought to you by JNN - "who's hiding what Harper?"


----------



## groovetube

I think this was posted earlier.

But one thing I notice form those who support the conservative government, is that they tend to separate the undesirable conservative members and address it as the party or government in general.

This is in stark contrast to how they address the liberal party. A few not so good members, and well the whole liberal party is corrupt! Morons! ALL of them!

I think it really reflects on this party in general, if they have a justice minister fumbling so epically like this. And to stand up in the house and equate ANYONE who disagrees as siding with the scumbag childporn perverts, well, that just says it all.

I for one don't believe for a second Toews is an island here in all of this. This party has shown a real propensity for this kind of nonsense before. But this time they finally overstepped in it really big, and were sideswiped by their own base of support. If their own supporters were on board with legislation like this, we wouldn't be seeing any willingness to review this at all.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> Toews surprised by content of online surveillance bill - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Imagine....this knuckle dragger has a law degree and he doesn't know his own legislation!!!:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "sometimes you just have to shake your head - who voted for these numbskulls - chit?"


I guess you don't even read the thread, just clutter it. 

Posted 17 hours earlier:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-331.html#post1170694


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## BigDL

The hallmark of Our Glorious Leader's government is the wedge issue. Divide people, stop the conversation on the topic under consideration, thereby have folks yell at each other, instead of discussing the issues.

OGL has been swinging for the upper rows and connecting with the wedge issue politics, until the last few at bats. Attawapiskat, OAS issue and now the Internet Surveillance Bill err... child molester's bill... (err what's the bill's name today?), have been big swings at division but ended out as big swishes at the plate of public opinion.

I wonder how many more "outs" with the public before the batting avera...err popularity in the polls takes a big hit? :clap:


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Toews surprised by content of online surveillance bill - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Imagine....this knuckle dragger has a law degree and he doesn't know his own legislation!!!:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "sometimes you just have to shake your head - who voted for these numbskulls - chit?"





SINC said:


> I guess you don't even read the thread, just clutter it.
> 
> Posted 17 hours earlier:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-331.html#post1170694


Hey, maybe JNN is back in the good graces, Jimbo, always something to look forward to.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Hey, maybe JNN is back in the good graces, Jimbo, always something to look forward to.


Jimbo does nothing but read a news aggregator. No talent required.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Jimbo does nothing but read a news aggregator. No talent required.


Observation>:yawn:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Observation>:yawn:


It's dull coverage I know, but that' all he's got. 

Perhaps for people who don't know how to "surf the Internet" I'll set up the aggregator to deliver nothing but negative spins on each political party and just post the results here. Oh what discussions it will generate among the computer illiterate!


----------



## eMacMan

jimbotelecom said:


> Toews surprised by content of online surveillance bill - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Imagine....this knuckle dragger has a law degree and he doesn't know his own legislation!!!:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "sometimes you just have to shake your head - who voted for these numbskulls - chit?"





SINC said:


> I guess you don't even read the thread, just clutter it.
> 
> Posted 17 hours earlier:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-331.html#post1170694


Good deflection there Sinc.

Since the bill is virtually identical to a bill the Liberals using the terror boogeyman as a smokescreen failed to pass, it comes as no surprise that the Harpolites did not participate in drafting the bill. 

OTH a reasonable expectation would be that the Minister of Justice should have read the bill and understood the bills implications before it was introduced.


----------



## dstanic




----------



## groovetube

Saw this on an interesting blog.

See this: Exporting oil to Asia is a national priority: Harper- Politics - Canoe.ca

Then this: Government labels environmentalists "terrorist threat" in new report | The Vancouver Observer

And then think about this legislation...

Tinfoil hats likely not required here.


----------



## eMacMan

dstanic said:


>


Amen!


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Good deflection there Sinc.


It's not a deflection, SINC opposes the bill. He's just pointing out that Jimbo is late to the party--again.

While I think Toews is a fool, the cartoon above makes no sense to me. What is Toews supposed to be saying that convinces the kids he is asking THEM for their name, address and phone number?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Jimbo does nothing but read a news aggregator. No talent required.


Why do you care so much? It's not as though Jimbo is using up available bandwidth with his posts. As long as he plays by the rules he has as much right to post here as you do.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think this was posted earlier.
> 
> *But one thing I notice form those who support the conservative government, is that they tend to separate the undesirable conservative members and address it as the party or government in general.
> 
> This is in stark contrast to how they address the liberal party. A few not so good members, and well the whole liberal party is corrupt! Morons! ALL of them!*
> 
> I think it really reflects on this party in general*, if they have a justice minister fumbling so epically like this.* And to stand up in the house and equate ANYONE who disagrees as siding with the scumbag childporn perverts, well, that just says it all.
> 
> I for one don't believe for a second Toews is an island here in all of this. This party has shown a real propensity for this kind of nonsense before. But this time they finally overstepped in it really big, and were sideswiped by their own base of support. If their own supporters were on board with legislation like this, we wouldn't be seeing any willingness to review this at all.


The same can be said of any party partisan as has been demonstrated here and in the media since time immemorial.

Vic Toews is not the Justice Minister, he is the Public Safety Minister. Rob Nicholson is the Justice Minister.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> ...
> Vic Toews is not the Justice Minister, he is the Public Safety Minister. Rob Nicholson is the Justice Minister.


Still if he is going to use the fear factor to pimp a bill originally written for the Martin Liberal government, he does have a responsibility to understand the implications of the pile of BS he is pushing.


----------



## BigDL

...and Towes' rhetoric.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Still if he is going to use the fear factor to pimp a bill originally written for the Martin Liberal government, he does have a responsibility to understand the implications of the pile of BS he is pushing.


It was merely a correction of the facts and not anything beyond that.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Why do you care so much? It's not as though Jimbo is using up available bandwidth with his posts. As long as he plays by the rules he has as much right to post here as you do.


He's welcome to the bandwidth. I'm just pointing out the ludicrous nature of the comments of those who are braying about how much they are learning from these posts--when everything being posted has been available to them all along to anyone with a hint of web-savvy.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> He's welcome to the bandwidth. I'm just pointing out the ludicrous nature of the comments of those who are braying about how much they are learning from these posts--when everything being posted has been available to them all along to anyone with a hint of web-savvy.


I think you simply don't like what he is posting so you counter your little ad hominem response.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The same can be said of any party partisan as has been demonstrated here and in the media since time immemorial.
> 
> Vic Toews is not the Justice Minister, he is the Public Safety Minister. Rob Nicholson is the Justice Minister.


whoops. You're right. My mistake.

And, yeah, whatevs. I've heard that same song before. I've also seen the same conservatives who boasted better government whine about the same very thing. 

My point? You cannot have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I think you simply don't like what he is posting so you counter your little ad hominem response.


I don't care when the news aggregator automatically collects them and don't care when they're automatically copied and pasted here. But I do bridle when people begin braying their approval, as though some work has gone into this.


----------



## Max

Oh come now. It's not necessarily about approving the work, it's about approving the message. Very little about expressing one's opinions on the net involves hard work.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Oh come now. It's not necessarily about approving the work, it's about approving the message. Very little about expressing one's opinions on the net involves hard work.


That's the point I'm making. Up a little late this morning, Maxie?


----------



## screature

Max said:


> Oh come now. It's not necessarily about approving the work, it's about approving the message. *Very little about expressing one's opinions on the net involves hard work.*


Perhaps for some, personally I have at times taken significant effort in making posts and providing thought, links to research, data, legislation etc... I'm not saying it is always the case (and not only in the Canadian Political Thread) but also in other threads as well where I have effectively conducted other people's research for them just to be helpful.

Perhaps if more people did make more effort in generating their posts before they hit the submit button the level of discourse could be elevated.


----------



## groovetube

Yes Max. How dare you enjoy a morning enjoying something other than dueling here!


----------



## groovetube

oh here we go about the whines about the quality of posts. Maybe it's time for another "quality club".

Come on. It's a forum.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh here we go about the whines about the quality of posts. Maybe it's time for another "quality club".
> 
> Come on. It's a forum.


Lowest common denominator hmm.. seems your efforts to "raise the bar" didn't last long...

What exactly was the point in making that post gt?


----------



## groovetube

I don't screature, but what I do know, is you do make a lot out of complaining about sniping, and quality of posts, yet just in the last couple days you've sniped, insulted and are now cluttering this thread with your cohorts complaining about a couple news posts. It was just a couple damn posts for gawdsake.

When you're all done whining about 2 or 3 posts as if it was some major thread derailment, then maybe we can get back to the couple topics at hand. Even if it is, a few days old.

With that, I'm outta here for the daytime.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I don't screature, but what* I do know, is you do make a lot out of complaining about sniping, and quality of posts*,* yet just in the last couple days you've sniped, insulted and are now cluttering this thread* with your cohorts complaining about a couple news posts. It was just a couple damn posts for gawdsake.
> 
> When you're all done whining about 2 or 3 posts as if it was some major thread derailment, then maybe we can get back to the couple topics at hand. Even if it is, a few days old.
> 
> With that, I'm outta here for the daytime.


Not true in my total post count I am quite confident in that my post count of such posts would be less than 0.5%.

Hmm. Let's see you have 9 post here in the last 2 days and I have 4 posts in this thread in the last 2 days so exactly what cluttering up are you talking about? Sniped and insulted??? Where? Show me where I haven't had the decency to accept the criticism and apologize.... do you ever do the same... not in my five years of being here have I ever seen that from gt. 

So I will take no lessons from you in the matter.


----------



## groovetube

Why don't you asked Sonal whom you accused of slum lording. And then acted quite snippy in your own vacation thread. You were quite the sniper so don't give me this high mighty crap. You come here whining about people sniping and cluttering threads and yet you do the very same thing. Here you are, along with your cohorts cluttering the thread with complaints because you dislike a couple posts with news links, which funny enough, was on topic.

Spare me.

Maybe later when the whimpering ceases, and the thread gets back on topic of politics.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Why don't you asked Sonal whom you accused of slum lording. **And then acted quite snippy in your own vacation thread.* You were quite the sniper so don't give me this high mighty crap. You come here whining about people sniping and cluttering threads and yet you do the very same thing. H*ere you are, along with your cohorts cluttering the thread with complaints because you dislike a couple posts with news links.*
> 
> Spare me.
> 
> Maybe later when the whimpering ceases, and the thread gets back on topic of politics.


You clearly weren't following the thread... 

I never accused Sonal of being a slum lord go back and see, I understood how she may have interpreted my post as such and apologized and clarified the matter to our mutual satisfaction.

For which I apologized... go back and look once again.

When was the last time I commented on JNN??? Go have a look...

BTW your use of the word whining is all too revealing about the sentiments contained in your post... I get it, you don't like me, along with many others here but quite frankly I have never seen you accept criticism (not talking about admitting an error of fact) and make an apology and on that front I can safely say once again I will take no lessons from you on the matter.


----------



## groovetube

Oh I saw it as did others. It was clear despite you glossing it over.

Whatever. But don't pretend you're better than others here. I wouldn't bring it up other than the fact you continue to council others on forum etiquette. I don't pretend to be better, but I say, don't throw stones in glass houses...




screature said:


> Perhaps for some, personally I have at times taken significant effort in making posts and providing thought, links to research, data, legislation etc... I'm not saying it is always the case (and not only in the Canadian Political Thread) but also in other threads as well where I have effectively conducted other people's research for them just to be helpful.
> 
> Perhaps if more people did make more effort in generating their posts before they hit the submit button the level of discourse could be elevated.


this was clearly in reference to the complaining.

Of course you can slither out of it by saying it wasn't.

But you can continue your "you do it too! I won't take lessons from you!

Well probably good that you don't.


----------



## Macfury

screature, I can only say that groove seems to be seeking some sort of vindication in a non-existent court of public opinion here. Leave him to generate these reams of bumf on his own.


----------



## groovetube

You wish it wasn't non existent. People just don't say it publicly here like I do. You should be thankful they don't...


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> You wish it wasn't non existent. People just don't say it publicly here like I do. You should be thankful they don't...


We'd all be thankful if you didn't either.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sure you would. But I do know, there's a number of posters who would be thankful if the trolls and constant holier than thou complainers would also, just quit the nonsense. Perhaps a few who stay away, would join in.

I'm sorry for saying it how it is, in case anyone dislikes bluntness.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Oh I saw it as did others. It was clear despite you glossing it over.
> 
> Whatever. *But don't pretend you're better than others here.* I wouldn't bring it up other than the fact you continue to council others on forum etiquette. *I don't pretend to be better*, but I say, don't throw stones in glass houses...
> 
> this was clearly in reference to the complaining.
> 
> Of course you can slither out of it by saying it wasn't.
> 
> But you can continue your "you do it too! I won't take lessons from you!
> 
> Well probably good that you don't.


You and others were mistaken. I clarified and matters were settled to rest with the only person that matter's in the matter. Sonal. I really don't care what you and "others" thought you saw.

I don't, I merely stated a fact in my own case as I know how much time I have taken in making some posts here before clicking on the submit button,,, if you choose to interpret that as my thinking I better than others that is your own interpretation.

You have in fact made many a post where you ascribe to yourself greater understanding on a given issue, as have we all so, so in your own words, "Spare Me."

As far as glass houses are concerned, I am indeed guilty of living in one as are you so again... "Spare Me."


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm sure you would. *But I do know, there's a number of posters who would be thankful if the trolls and constant holier than thou complainers would also, just quit the nonsense.* Perhaps a few who stay away, would join in.
> 
> I'm sorry for saying it how it is, in case anyone dislikes bluntness.


I hope you are fitting yourself into that grouping as I know many members who feel exactly the same way about your postings.

No, no superiority attitude in that post at all gt.


----------



## groovetube

I'm aware of my sins, of which there's been many, but apparently you think yourself above it all.

Perhaps it's time to cut the crap, and actually stop pretending to be better, and attempt posting about politics. Ironically, the couple JNN posts that were apparently akin to peeing on someone's lawn, were the only on topic posts in a page or so.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm aware of my sins, of which there's been many, but apparently you think yourself above it all.
> 
> Perhaps it's time to cut the crap, and actually stop pretending to be better, and attempt posting about politics. Ironically, the couple JNN posts that were apparently akin to peeing on someone's lawn, were the only on topic posts in a page or so.


Like I said and you failed to acknowledge:



> As far as glass houses are concerned, I am indeed guilty of living in one as are you so again... "Spare Me."


This is getting really boring.... stating the same clearly stated facts over and over again, maybe someone else would like to chime in on a different subject and put this dead horse to rest....


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> screature, I can only say that groove seems to be seeking some sort of vindication in a non-existent court of public opinion here. Leave him to generate these reams of bumf on his own.


Ahh but it is just so much fun doncha know..


----------



## groovetube

Well we're at page 337, and the apparently incredibly offensive offensive 2 JNN posts were back on page 332. But of course, why not use the well known whine about the 2 JNN posts to derail! Works every time doncha know! And then all pile on about how you only like quaaaaality posts. Even better.

So, any time everyone is done proclaiming their being above all this sniping, and thread derailments, and such quality posting, hey, let the quality roll!


----------



## mrjimmy

RCMP asked to investigate threats against Public Safety Minister Vic Toews - The Globe and Mail

Interesting, a 'crisis' has been manufactured that attempts to turn oppressor into victim. 

A feeble attempt to garner sympathy for the man and perhaps in the process, his bill.

I think it's going to take much more than that. It will be interesting to see what the next strategy is.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> RCMP asked to investigate threats against Public Safety Minister Vic Toews - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Interesting, a 'crisis' has been manufactured that attempts to turn oppressor into victim.
> 
> A feeble attempt to garner sympathy for the man and perhaps in the process, his bill.
> 
> I think it's going to take much more than that. It will be interesting to see what the next strategy is.


And it just isn't possible for someone to root a computer in the parliament buildings to set up the tweets either. No it's those 'socialists' fault. The whole thing has turned into a total circus.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Well we're at page 337, and the apparently incredibly offensive offensive 2 JNN posts were back on page 332*. But of course, why not use the well known whine about the 2 JNN posts to derail! Works every time doncha know! And then all pile on about how you only like quaaaaality posts. Even better.
> 
> So, any time everyone is done proclaiming their being above all this sniping, and thread derailments, and such quality posting, hey, let the quality roll!


I have no idea what you are talking about as I made no reference to jimbo's post's....

My posts have had absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with him or his posts.

So your *whining* (your favourite word of late)] to me about this is absolutely in error and meaningless.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about as I made no reference to jimbo's post's....
> 
> My posts have had absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with him or his posts.
> 
> So your *whining* (your favourite word of late)] to me in about this is absolutely in error and meaningless.


I'll just fill in the blanks about how you know very well what groovetube is talking about and how he is above all of this and is just trying to rise above your troll posts. Oh, also the way in which you march in lockstep with your Glorious Leader, Harper, and can bear no criticism of him.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It's dull coverage I know, but that' all he's got.
> 
> Perhaps for people who don't know how to "surf the Internet" I'll set up the aggregator to deliver nothing but negative spins on each political party and just post the results here. Oh what discussions it will generate among the computer illiterate!


<START RANT>For the sake of all that is good or holy why don't you do some or all of the following:
a) set up said aggregator to post links of which you approve;
b) put Jimbo and JNN on ignore as Sinc so valiantly attempted;
c) refute the stories linked or refute facts in the links;
d) stop whining, stop derailing;
e) but most importantly, simply STHU about any poster's desire to post the way a poster wishes to post. If whining didn't work in the past, it is the best indicator, that whining will not to work in the future.

I am tired of the few "thread cops." 

I do recall you, virtually stomping your feet, starting "a better" discussion thread with a few thread cops in tow. In the end, apparently not a better discussion thread. Here we are again. The pouting continues. Where is the acceptance of free will for other's activities?<END RANT>

Sorry to all for this derail.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> <START RANT>For the sake of all that is good or holy why don't you do some or all of the following:
> a) set up said aggregator to post links of which you approve;
> b) put Jimbo and JNN on ignore as Sinc so valiantly attempted;
> c) refute the stories linked or refute facts in the links;
> d) stop whining, stop derailing;
> e) but most importantly, simply STHU about any poster's desire to post the way a poster wishes to post. If whining didn't work in the past, it is the best indicator, that whining will not to work in the future.
> 
> I am tired of the few "thread cops."
> 
> I do recall you, virtually stomping your feet, starting "a better" discussion thread with a few thread cops in tow. In the end, apparently not a better discussion thread. Here we are again. The pouting continues. Where is the acceptance of free will for other's activities?<END RANT>
> 
> Sorry to all for this derail.


:clap:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> <START RANT>For the sake of all that is good or holy why don't you do some or all of the following:
> a) set up said aggregator to post links of which you approve;
> b) put Jimbo and JNN on ignore as Sinc so valiantly attempted;
> c) refute the stories linked or refute facts in the links;
> d) stop whining, stop derailing;
> e) but most importantly, simply STHU about any poster's desire to post the way a poster wishes to post. If whining didn't work in the past, it is the best indicator, that whining will not to work in the future.
> 
> I am tired of the few "thread cops."
> 
> I do recall you, virtually stomping your feet, starting "a better" discussion thread with a few thread cops in tow. In the end, apparently not a better discussion thread. Here we are again. The pouting continues. Where is the acceptance of free will for other's activities?<END RANT>
> 
> Sorry to all for this derail.


Why apologize? Next time don't derail.


----------



## groovetube

And there we have it. Classic troll post of the day.

Well done. The unholy trinity of thread crappers have done it once again today.

So there Jimbo, your two posts have created just a crapstorm of shrieking and cries for quality posts. And not a one from either of them all day.

Let that be a lesson to you for daring, to post a couple news articles. How dare you.


----------



## Macfury

EhMax, in all his wisdom, has given you the ability to enjoy a thread free of "crap" by putting all of the thread crappers on your ignore list. Instead of constant troll posts about how you can't take it anymore, just ignore.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> EhMax, in all his wisdom, has given you the ability to enjoy a thread free of "crap" by putting all of the thread crappers on your ignore list. Instead of constant troll posts about how you can't take it anymore, just ignore.


How about this, why don't the three of YOU, stop whining, and put the JNN on ignore.

Since it's the three of you who have consistently, derailed by whining about the lack of quality posts and the lousy 2 posts of JNN.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> How about this, why don't the three of YOU, stop whining, and put the JNN on ignore.
> 
> Since it's the three of you who have consistently, derailed by whining about the lack of quality posts and the lousy 2 posts of JNN.


That's YOUR second derail post in a row and you do it far more than anyone.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> That's YOUR second derail post in a row and you do it far more than anyone.


Excuse me but now you're going to complain? You're the thread crapper that started this crap in the first place by for the 10th time whining and complaining because someone had the audacity to post two lousy posts with news links and one of them, oh my GAAAAWD it was a days old news item.

The 3 of you regularly come in here and stamp your feet because you don't like the news articles. Put it on ignore and grow up.

I will stand my ground on this. I don't care if it takes 20 more pages but I'm tired of listening to the 3 of you pontificating about the sniping and thread derailments and the lack of quality posts when all you do here is that very same thing. Starting with YOUR post SInc.

Don't like the 2 posts? Don't like the quality? Then either post some or go to another thread.


----------



## Macfury

I've said the quality of your posts are lacking, but I've never accused anyone of derailing.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I've said the quality of your posts are lacking, but I've never accused anyone of derailing.


This is a forum macfury, not everyone, is as incredibly smart as you, or has the time to write. But complaining about it, doesn't do anything but the mess of the last 10 pages. I'm tired of it. Since I'm the only one to stand up to it here, so be it. 
If all you're going to do is simply be angry and snipe at the quality of other's posts here, then all you're doing, is trolling. Period.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> This is a forum macfury, not everyone, is as incredibly smart as you...


"Blush"... I know.


----------



## groovetube

well it certainly seems very very important to you to make sure everyone knows you're above all the dreck here.

You gets your validation where you can gets it I guess.


----------



## Macfury

I'd say having you acknowledge it has been pretty much the smallest pleasure of the day--but a pleasure nonetheless.


----------



## SINC

3...2...1 enter yet another meaningless rebuttal, not knowing when to quit. Filled as usual with self righteousness and sarcasm.


----------



## dstanic

If anyone thinks their posts are of superior quality then maybe they should start a blog or something. I don't have a problem with scrolling past a post that has a day old or week old link, _it is just an internet forum_ and I don't see how that is breaking the rules or anything. We should be discussing Canadian Politics, not ehmac member politics! 

Forgive me as I am new to this forum, I know that every place has it's own atmosphere (be it a car forum, photography forum, or what have you.)


----------



## groovetube

Absolutely. Well a few here seem to get incredibly upset if a few posts are not deemed "quality" in their estimation. Yes it is just an internet forum, and maybe more would participate if it were just regular conversation, and less trolling, and letting people post without the need for being jumped on for "low quality."

Heaven help you if you ever, make the cardinal sin if your news item is more than a day old!


I say post away, damn the torpedoes.


----------



## Ottawaman

Macfury said:


> I'd say having you acknowledge it has been pretty much the smallest pleasure of the day--but a pleasure nonetheless.


How sad and yet conceited at the same time.


----------



## Ottawaman

SINC said:


> 3...2...1 enter yet another meaningless rebuttal, not knowing when to quit. Filled as usual with self righteousness and sarcasm.


Why are you planning on posting again? 
Really, all of these threads are predetermined given the personalities involved.

No one has convinced anyone of anything around here in ten years that I can recall.

edit, fixed typo


----------



## BigDL

:clap: Bazzzzinga! :lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> No one has convinced anyone of anything around her in ten years that I can recall.


If that's what you thought the purpose of the thread was, you have wasted valuable portions of those 10 years.


----------



## Ottawaman

Please illuminate the purpose of these threads. I dare you.
Oh and be explicit, please.


----------



## Ottawaman

Here's an example of a rebuttal I would anticipate from you.

My time is mine to spend as I please. It wise of you to express that my time is valuable to waste. Or some other bs along those lines. Something, something, socialism.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> Here's an example of a rebuttal I would anticipate from you.


A rebuttal of what point? 



Ottawaman said:


> My time is mine to spend as I please. It wise of you to express that my time is valuable to waste. Or some other bs along those lines. Something, something, socialism.


Here is my libertarian view of the purpose of this thread:
1. to learn something about Canadian politics
2. to hone my own personal debating skills. 
3. to remind people that there are alternative viewpoints to the ones they seem most comfortable with. 
4. in the absence of any cogent or interesting arguments, to act pompous and simply rile people up.


----------



## Ottawaman

Macfury said:


> A rebuttal of what point?
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my libertarian view of the purpose of this thread:
> 1. to learn something about Canadian politics
> 2. to hone my own personal debating skills.
> 3. to remind people that there are alternative viewpoints to the ones they seem most comfortable with.
> 4. in the absence of any cogent or interesting arguments, to act pompous and simply rile people up.


Point 4 is the crux of the matter. Well half of point 4. Your determination of a point being cogent or not is truly subjective. So really, we are just left with acting pompous.

Not that you would care, but I did find your post more forthcoming than I would have expected. Although I do not discount the possibility that you are messing with me for your own pleasure.

edit grammar


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> Your determination of a point being cogent or not is truly subjective.


Of course it's subjective. I should wait, maybe, for everyone else to vote on it first?


----------



## Ottawaman

No, if having a vote of 1 helps your process, by all means enjoy. It seems silly to me, but whatever.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> No, if having a vote of 1 helps your process, by all means enjoy. It seems silly to me, but whatever.


There's no process. Just me. 

And I'm perfectly comfortable acting on my own assessments of things. Those who feel obliged to reach out to their peer groups before determining if a post is cogent or not, should obviously take the collaborative approach to developing a personal opinion.


----------



## BigDL

eh! eh! nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more.


----------



## BigDL

Ottawaman said:


> How sad and yet conceited at the same time.





Ottawaman said:


> Why are you planning on posting again?
> Really, all of these threads are predetermined given the personalities involved.
> 
> No one has convinced anyone of anything around here in ten years that I can recall.
> 
> edit, fixed typo





Ottawaman said:


> Please illuminate the purpose of these threads. I dare you.
> Oh and be explicit, please.





Ottawaman said:


> Here's an example of a rebuttal I would anticipate from you.
> 
> My time is mine to spend as I please. It wise of you to express that my time is valuable to waste. Or some other bs along those lines. Something, something, socialism.





Ottawaman said:


> Point 4 is the crux of the matter. Well half of point 4. Your determination of a point being cogent or not is truly subjective. So really, we are just left with acting pompous.
> 
> Not that you would care, but I did find your post more forthcoming than I would have expected. Although I do not discount the possibility that you are messing with me for your own pleasure.
> 
> edit grammar





Ottawaman said:


> No, if having a vote of 1 helps your process, by all means enjoy. It seems silly to me, but whatever.


Thanks OMan, :clap:


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - Wasting money one CON created dept after another*

Federal mining agency can't find work - Canada - CBC News

Good to see some common sense efficiency at play here. Nice one Harper!

Brought to you by JNN - "leave the CONS speechless since 2011"


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> eh! eh! nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more.


ZING!! I can't believe what I just read from the smasher. Pure, unadulterated, "I know you are but what am I".

It doesn't get any more pure than that!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ZING!! I can't believe what I just read from the smasher. Pure, unadulterated, "*I know you are but what am I"*.


Seriously? How doe that apply at all? Clearly you misunderstood the entire post.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> Here's an example of a rebuttal I would anticipate from you.
> 
> My time is mine to spend as I please. It wise of you to express that my time is valuable to waste. Or some other bs along those lines. Something, something, socialism.





Ottawaman said:


> Point 4 is the crux of the matter. Well half of point 4. Your determination of a point being cogent or not is truly subjective. So really, we are just left with acting pompous.
> 
> Not that you would care, but I did find your post more forthcoming than I would have expected. Although I do not discount the possibility that you are messing with me for your own pleasure.
> 
> edit grammar


BOOM! OM gets a technical knockout.

I don't think that idea that it's subjective matters. The determination of whether a post is cogent or not, simply means if macfury or one of the unholy trinity dislikes the tone, or that it criticizes too much the government he says doesn't totally agree with, well then it's open season on the thread! So his point 4, for anyone reading, was a public admission of being a classic troll, which is what I and probably about 10 people here have said to me in person, and in PM. It's fine to have a differing opinion, I don't think I've ever thought I'd convince a conservative to suddenly be a NDP supporter really. But to admit to going off on a thread and "rile people up"?

Well, tell us something we don't already know macfury. That's largely the real problem here in this thread, and it would help if you stopped the childish troll behaviour you just openly admitted to.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Seriously? How doe that apply at all? Clearly you misunderstood the entire post.


no macfury, I think I understood perfectly. That's how you come off.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Federal mining agency can't find work - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Good to see some common sense efficiency at play here. Nice one Harper!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "leave the CONS speechless since 2011"


It seems what this government did, was bloat government larger than any in history. How a government, who professes to be conservative, and accused the others of being for spending and larger government, got away with this is actually, quite amazing. You have to give Harper props for pulling this off on the Canadian people. He certainly is no dummy.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> no macfury, I think I understood perfectly. That's how you come off.


Well, you're certainly batting a thousand as usual.


----------



## Macfury

The federal mining agency is typical of dozens of such agencies that need to be abolished entirely. In this case, mining companies need to defend themselves against environmental complaints. However, the amount of money being spent on this one is peanuts compared to other agencies that also need the boot.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> 3...2...1 enter yet another meaningless rebuttal, not knowing when to quit. Filled as usual with self righteousness and sarcasm.





Ottawaman said:


> Why are you planning on posting again?


The irony. Oh the irony.


----------



## groovetube

indeed.


----------



## Sonal

From my perspective, almost everyone who participates in this thread derails it, engages in sniping, criticizes others for sniping, takes low blows, tossing around insults/near-insults, getting defensive, getting self-righteous and sarcastic, etc. Most also complain about other people doing these things despite doing it themselves. (A couple do this without complaining about it in others.)

One or two regularly posters here seem to be more polemicists than anything else, but somehow a lot of people don't see that and start blowing a gasket over what they say. 

At some point, don't you think it would just make more sense to admit that you all probably like it this way? At least on some level anyway.  Of course, that would take the wind out of your collective sails.

As for MacFury specifically, personally, I don't have an issue with him posting stuff just to rile people up whenever he's bored with the current state of discussion. It's really, really obvious he's doing it even without his admitting it. What I don't get is why people who appear to be bothered by it keep falling for it. I mean, if it bothers you that someone is just trying to rile you up, and then you get riled up.... um, why would he stop if you keep doing what he wants? 

To me, he's shown that he'll engage in real discussion whenever one sufficiently interesting to him presents itself. But if pushing someone's buttons is more entertaining, he'll just sit back and push buttons. Frankly, the same is true with most people on the internet. (And clearly, I am more entertained by lecturing people on their behaviour.  )


----------



## SINC

An excellent post Sonal and food for thought. I can see myself there and I hope others can too so we can raise the level of debate here. Thanks for taking the time for the virtual kick in the pants.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper and CONS - Support the troops and then chit on them*

Veterans ombudsman blasts Ottawa over denied disability claims - The Globe and Mail

Support our Troops! Where?

Brought to you by JNN - "Exposing more Harper CON mythology daily"


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> From my perspective, almost everyone who participates in this thread derails it, engages in sniping, criticizes others for sniping, takes low blows, tossing around insults/near-insults, getting defensive, getting self-righteous and sarcastic, etc. Most also complain about other people doing these things despite doing it themselves. (A couple do this without complaining about it in others.)
> 
> One or two regularly posters here seem to be more polemicists than anything else, but somehow a lot of people don't see that and start blowing a gasket over what they say.
> 
> At some point, don't you think it would just make more sense to admit that you all probably like it this way? At least on some level anyway.  Of course, that would take the wind out of your collective sails.
> 
> As for MacFury specifically, personally, I don't have an issue with him posting stuff just to rile people up whenever he's bored with the current state of discussion. It's really, really obvious he's doing it even without his admitting it. What I don't get is why people who appear to be bothered by it keep falling for it. I mean, if it bothers you that someone is just trying to rile you up, and then you get riled up.... um, why would he stop if you keep doing what he wants?
> 
> To me, he's shown that he'll engage in real discussion whenever one sufficiently interesting to him presents itself. But if pushing someone's buttons is more entertaining, he'll just sit back and push buttons. Frankly, the same is true with most people on the internet. (And clearly, I am more entertained by lecturing people on their behaviour.  )


Probably because there are more people than you probably realize that are bothered by it, and I have received a number of PMs from people who say they'd like to participate, but don't because of the trolling. Or, pushing buttons as you put it. It's been laughed about over pints in the past.

I don't think anyone is guiltless when it comes to bad form at times, certainly I don't profess to be blameless, (though a couple here regularly do...) but there's no excuse for this level of nonsense.

If the level of trolling, and the hue and cries everytime a few critical news items are posted can be reduced, it'd go a long way to lowering the level of noise here. Because, if I don't react to it, someone else will. And so on, and so on.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's been laughed about over pints in the past.


And yet here, it evokes bitter, salty tears. Fascinating dichotomy!

My advice? Have a beer when reading the thread and it will all fall into place.


----------



## groovetube

I think you flatter yourself a little too much macfury.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Probably because there are more people than you probably realize that are bothered by it, and I have received a number of PMs from people who say they'd like to participate, but don't because of the trolling. Or, pushing buttons as you put it. It's been laughed about over pints in the past.
> 
> I don't think anyone is guiltless when it comes to bad form at times, certainly I don't profess to be blameless, (though a couple here regularly do...) but there's no excuse for this level of nonsense.
> 
> If the level of trolling, and the hue and cries everytime a few critical news items are posted can be reduced, it'd go a long way to lowering the level of noise here. Because, if I don't react to it, someone else will. And so on, and so on.


I actually read this thread regularly. I don't always post. It's not the sniping or complaining, it's often that I'm not as familiar or concerned about particular issues to feel compelled to say anything. 

I used to be very bothered by the sniping. I remember being part of that a discussion back when ehMax tried isolating politics to it's own forum. I'm not anymore... it's just noise. Seems the way of every single political discussion on the internet. I've never seen complaining about or replying to the sniping/trolling/insults/etc to actually work in reducing them.

The few times I've jumped in here, I get perfectly intelligent discussion out of MacFury and others. And yet others still keep saying that they get nothing but trolling and a poor level of debate. Leads me to conclude that I must be doing something different.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I actually read this thread regularly. I don't always post. It's not the sniping or complaining, it's often that I'm not as familiar or concerned about particular issues to feel compelled to say anything.
> 
> I used to be very bothered by the sniping. I remember being part of that a discussion back when ehMax tried isolating politics to it's own forum. I'm not anymore... it's just noise. Seems the way of every single political discussion on the internet. I've never seen complaining about or replying to the sniping/trolling/insults/etc to actually work in reducing them.
> 
> The few times I've jumped in here, I get perfectly intelligent discussion out of MacFury and others. And yet others still keep saying that they get nothing but trolling and a poor level of debate. Leads me to conclude that I must be doing something different.


Different than a whole bunch of others? Ohhh... I doubt it... 

I have seen perfectly reasonable posts get the macfury treatment hundreds of time over the last few years. And so have many, others. Perhaps it's because you defend him a little.

That'll go a long way there.


----------



## Macfury

Thar ya go, Miss Sonal--if you's for MacFury, you's agin us... Now choose your ground ma'am and mind the bullets.


----------



## groovetube

Sorry macfury, but this isn't a 'you're either with us, or against us".

Sometimes people disagree on something, and it's perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Different than a whole bunch of others? Ohhh... I doubt it...
> 
> I have seen perfectly reasonable posts get the macfury treatment hundreds of time over the last few years. And so have many, others. Perhaps it's because you defend him a little.
> 
> That'll go a long way there.


I defend him a little because I agree with him a little. Why wouldn't I defend what I agree with? It goes the other way, since I agree with you a lot and defend the same. (Probably why I identify myself as politically centrist, an increasingly lonely position it seems.)

I don't think that it's my posts being reasonable that keep them from largely being untrolled by MF. I think it's more that I understand that MacFury enjoys being a s**tdisturber. JMO of course.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Thar ya go, Miss Sonal--if you's for MacFury, you's agin us... Now choose your ground ma'am and mind the bullets.


I'm standing right here in the middle. Fire at will.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I defend him a little because I agree with him a little. Why wouldn't I defend what I agree with? It goes the other way, since I agree with you a lot and defend the same. (Probably why I identify myself as politically centrist, an increasingly lonely position it seems.)
> 
> I don't think that it's my posts being reasonable that keep them from largely being untrolled by MF. I think it's more that I understand that MacFury enjoys being a s**tdisturber. JMO of course.


How Canadian of you  I don't it'd surprise many to know centrists are in the majority. At least from my perspective.

That's fine, it's just that not a lot of people dig the shyte disturbing as it just gets tiresome after a while. As tiresome as this escapade has become anyway.

A good start would be to keep on topic, rather than the (let's try a macfury-ism) ashes and sackcloths over a few news posts.

I appreciate your peaceful stance though.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I don't think that it's my posts being reasonable that keep them from largely being untrolled by MF. I think it's more that I understand that MacFury enjoys being a s**tdisturber. JMO of course.


I'm going to be honest here, Sonal. You take care to construct your arguments in a logical and thoughtful manner, so that even if we disagree, it often simply boils down to different philosophical beliefs. When arguments are poorly constructed, or when the poster is evasive, or can't explain what he or she means, the focus shifts to the gaping holes in the arguments instead. If that provokes tears and lashing out, I tend to go for the sharp stick at that point.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I'm going to be honest here, Sonal. You take care to construct your arguments in a logical and thoughtful manner, so that even if we disagree, it often simply boils down to different philosophical beliefs. When arguments are poorly constructed, or when the poster is evasive, or can't explain what he or she means, the focus shifts to the gaping holes in the arguments instead. If that provokes tears and lashing out, I tend to go for the sharp stick at that point.


Let me rephrase this.

"If you don't post something I feel is worthy of macfury, then I'll act like an arsehole. 

And if anyone reacts, well, they're just crybabies."

This always works well in a political thread on a forum. :clap:


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> How Canadian of you  I don't it'd surprise many to know centrists are in the majority. At least from my perspective.
> 
> That's fine, it's just that not a lot of people dig the shyte disturbing as it just gets tiresome after a while. As tiresome as this escapade has become anyway.
> 
> A good start would be to keep on topic, rather than the (let's try a macfury-ism) ashes and sackcloths over a few news posts.
> 
> I appreciate your peaceful stance though.


Thank you.

The majority are centrists, but those are probably not the ones arguing politics vigourously... that kind of discussion has a tendency to go to the extremes.

I agree that not everyone digs all the sniping. But it seems that here on the internet, that's just the way it goes. I have yet to find a place where politics gets discussed online that doesn't devolve, which leads me to conclude that this is just how these discussions roll. 

So I figure that either I have to find a way to adapt to that environment, or not participate.

And frankly--this place is not so bad. 



Macfury said:


> I'm going to be honest here, Sonal. You take care to construct your arguments in a logical and thoughtful manner, so that even if we disagree, it often simply boils down to different philosophical beliefs. When arguments are poorly constructed, or when the poster is evasive, or can't explain what he or she means, the focus shifts to the gaping holes in the arguments instead. If that provokes tears and lashing out, I tend to go for the sharp stick at that point.


Thank you.

But I know you can't resist going for the jugular.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Let me rephrase this.
> 
> "If you don't post something I feel is worthy of macfury, then I'll act like an arsehole.
> 
> And if anyone reacts, well, they're just crybabies."
> 
> This always works well in a political thread on a forum. :clap:


I can't help it that I have standards. But now that you understand me a little better, you can avoid the pitfalls that initiate my wrath.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But I know you can't resist going for the jugular.


OK--if I smell blood that sometimes happens...


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Thank you.
> 
> The majority are centrists, but those are probably not the ones arguing politics vigourously... that kind of discussion has a tendency to go to the extremes.
> 
> I agree that not everyone digs all the sniping. But it seems that here on the internet, that's just the way it goes. I have yet to find a place where politics gets discussed online that doesn't devolve, which leads me to conclude that this is just how these discussions roll.
> 
> So I figure that either I have to find a way to adapt to that environment, or not participate.
> 
> And frankly--this place is not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> But I know you can't resist going for the jugular.


I don't disagree, I have found generally, in most places I have frequented over the years, it's usually one of them that sets the tone. I don't for a second buy it's about logical arguments, or agreeing blah blah.

Perhaps I'm just less "Canadian about it", and deal with it head on. Not everyone may be comfortable about it. I'm that way in real life as well. Act like a jerk to me, and you'll get it right back.

I don't know why that's such a bad thing! Or such whimpering from the one that starts it with the "sharp stick" in the first place.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I don't disagree, I have found generally, in most places I have frequented over the years, it's usually one of them that sets the tone. I don't for a second buy it's about logical arguments, or agreeing blah blah.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just less "Canadian about it", and deal with it head on. Not everyone may be comfortable about it. I'm that way in real life as well. Act like a jerk to me, and you'll get it right back.
> 
> I don't know why that's such a bad thing!


It isn't a bad thing. 

But if you're contributing half the jerky posts, you're half the supposed problem. So why complain about the problem when it's half you? (And I know you own up to that, but you do see what I'm getting at?)

It's like he sets out to bait you and you take the bait every single time. So now, he doesn't even have to bother responding to what you say, he can amuse himself by just poking you and watching you dance. It's an endless cycle. You're the one who says he doesn't like it, and yet you're the one who keeps playing the game.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> OK--if I smell blood that sometimes happens...


It may also help that I don't think you're inherently evil.  Even though I think your idealistic Libertarian paradise would fall apart even faster than this thread.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It may also help that I don't think you're inherently evil.


You say the sweetest things!



Sonal said:


> Even though I think your idealistic Libertarian paradise would fall apart even faster than this thread.


The rank and file couldn't function in a purely libertarian system. But this one needs to be pushed in the libertarian direction by a good half-turn, 'cause lady, this one is unsustainable as well.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> It isn't a bad thing.
> 
> But if you're contributing half the jerky posts, you're half the supposed problem. So why complain about the problem when it's half you? (And I know you own up to that, but you do see what I'm getting at?)
> 
> It's like he sets out to bait you and you take the bait every single time. So now, he doesn't even have to bother responding to what you say, he can amuse himself by just poking you and watching you dance. It's an endless cycle. You're the one who says he doesn't like it, and yet you're the one who keeps playing the game.


I'm half the problem?

Again, it's pretty basic, he acts like a jerk, and I give it back. I'm not the only one here to do it, nor will I be the last. This whole idea of 'playing into his hands" is stupidity, pure and simple. And childish. What is this, grade school? 

I think anyone who sits in a forum baiting people and going after them with a "sharp stick" if they dare shoot back needs help really. But that's his problem.

I simply take each post at face value. If they want to play games, well, that's not my problem. It's just a forum, and nothing more. I just call it as I see it. Just so happens it's the same as quite a few people here. (and not here now...)


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The rank and file couldn't function in a purely libertarian system. But this one needs to be pushed in the libertarian direction by a good half-turn, 'cause lady, this one is unsustainable as well.


Depends on the issue.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> I'm standing right here in the middle.


Clowns to the Left of you, jokers to the Right. And Right of the jokers are Harper and his cronies.


----------



## Macfury

The there are the research scientists, standing on the sidelines, fuming because nobody listens to them.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The there are the research scientists, standing on the sidelines, fuming because nobody listens to them.


Ah, you've been reading about The Harper Government's policies on muzzling research scientists and the international embarrassment it has caused at the AAAS meeting in Vancouver have you?


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> Ah, you've been reading about The Harper Government's policies on muzzling research scientists and the international embarrassment it has caused at the AAAS meeting in Vancouver have you?


That is one of many current Conservative policies that I strongly disagree with and have made it known to my local MP and the PM himself. It serves no useful purpose that I can determine.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Ah, you've been reading about The Harper Government's policies on muzzling research scientists and the international embarrassment it has caused at the AAAS meeting in Vancouver have you?


I've read about the scientists' complaints regarding their conditions of employment--and how this exacerbates their inherent impotence.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> That is one of many current Conservative policies that I strongly disagree with and have made it known to my local MP and the PM himself. It serves no useful purpose that I can determine.


:clap:


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Clowns to the Left of you, jokers to the Right. And Right of the jokers are Harper and his cronies.


He's been increasingly less right-wing over the years... he knows that it doesn't win elections. The moment he starts hinting at anything socially conservative he's going to hit backlash, so he mostly backburners that.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> He's been increasingly less right-wing over the years... he knows that it doesn't win elections. The moment he starts hinting at anything socially conservative he's going to hit backlash, so he mostly backburners that.


Yes, it must frustrate the hell out of him (not to mention his hillbilly supporters). I lived in Alberta during the Western Canada Concept years, and Harper really learned how to get that crowd behind him while founding his political career in Calgary. Of course he knows that they've got nowhere to go, politically, so he can afford to keep promising them their theocracy knowing that he could never pull it off.

Still, given some of the crap he's claimed to support, I'm extremely uncomfortable with him as our prime minister.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> He's been increasingly less right-wing over the years... he knows that it doesn't win elections. The moment he starts hinting at anything socially conservative he's going to hit backlash, so he mostly backburners that.


ah, so he's discovered that Canadians aren't necessarily conservative as they are centrists mostly. Chretien benefited from this for some time.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Yes, it must frustrate the hell out of him (not to mention his hillbilly supporters). I lived in Alberta during the Western Canada Concept years, and Harper really learned how to get that crowd behind him while founding his political career in Calgary. Of course he knows that they've got nowhere to go, politically, so he can afford to keep promising them their theocracy knowing that he could never pull it off.
> 
> Still, given some of the crap he's claimed to support, I'm extremely uncomfortable with him as our prime minister.


I have to wonder if that is what he believed then, or if that was what he found politically expedient at the time.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> Still, given some of the crap he's claimed to support, I'm extremely uncomfortable with him as our prime minister.


I wouldn't say I was uncomfortable with Harper as PM. Far from it. Wary is perhaps a better term.

That noted, people can and do change and I think his experience at being the PM has likely taught him some lessons or given him cause to reflect on former views. God knows enough people, me included have written him chastising him for some of his decisions. I hope by the constant feedback he gets from Conservatives who disagree with some party platforms or his personal opinions he will improve as time goes by. He is far from stupid and age tends to mellow everyone.

My guess is that even your viewpoint has changed since your days with us ********, bryanc.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> I wouldn't say I was uncomfortable with Harper as PM. Far from it. Wary is perhaps a better term.
> 
> That noted, people can and do change and I think his experience at being the PM has likely taught him some lessons or given him cause to reflect on former views. God knows enough people, me included have written him chastising him for some of his decisions. I hope by the constant feedback he gets from Conservatives who disagree with some party platforms or his personal opinions he will improve as time goes by. He is far from stupid and age tends to mellow everyone.
> 
> My guess is that even your viewpoint has changed since your days with us ********, bryanc.


There's almost two schools of thoughts on politicians... should they remain consistent so that one can rely on getting exactly what one votes for (whether it makes sense or not) or should they be adaptable so that adjustments can be made to suit the political realities (whether that's what was promised or not). 

I prefer the latter, personally.


----------



## SINC

I agree Sonal and the latter is what I see with Harper since he became PM. He has changed for the better, but he has a ways to go yet to shed himself of some of that early thinking from his youth. Not to mention a tune-up on environmental issues.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> There's almost two schools of thoughts on politicians... should they remain consistent so that one can rely on getting exactly what one votes for (whether it makes sense or not) or should they be adaptable so that adjustments can be made to suit the political realities (whether that's what was promised or not).
> 
> I prefer the latter, personally.





SINC said:


> I agree Sonal and the latter is what I see with Harper since he became PM. He has changed for the better, but he has a ways to go yet to shed himself of some of that early thinking from his youth. Not to mention a tune-up on environmental issues.


+1 Agreed.


----------



## bryanc

I suppose this is a fair position to take. And I agree that, rather than criticizing a politician for "flip-flopping" when they are shown they are in error on an issue and they change their position, they should be commended.

But I don't think Harper's principles are in any way congruent with mine, or with Canada's in general. Everything I've heard him say or read that he's written is consistent with his idolization of the United States and his belief that we'd be better off to emulate the policies of the US (and especially the Republicans). The Calgary School of economics, where he came from, is a mecca of far-right laissez-faire ideology, and he's an avid adherent of social conservative values personally. But he isn't stupid, and he knows most of theses values are in stark contrast with those of most Canadians, so he's embarked on the long game of "boiling the frog"... gradually shifting things to the right, eroding our social safety nets and cultural touchstones, until it's a fête accompli, and we're American's in all but name.


----------



## screature

Regarding baiting...

MF is far from being alone in this practice and his most constant adversary, gt, is every bit as guilty despite his claims/whining that I am only "responding to being prodded"... let's all shed some alligator tears for the poor boy who bullies as much as he thinks he is being bullied... :-(

Sorry I can't sit idly by while this chite goes unchallenged. Let's ask a few poster's here how they felt about gt's constant condescension and name calling regarding a "Flash Point" issue in another thread...

If MF's reputation precedes him then those who were forewarned and continuously engage with him have no one to blame but themselves... the ignore list is always an option as has been pointed out by gt to others when they complain about particular posters so why doesn't he take his own advice...


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> I suppose this is a fair position to take. And I agree that, rather than criticizing a politician for "flip-flopping" when they are shown they are in error on an issue and they change their position, they should be commended.
> 
> But I don't think Harper's principles are in any way congruent with mine, or with Canada's in general. Everything I've heard him say or read that he's written is consistent with his idolization of the United States and his belief that we'd be better off to emulate the policies of the US (and especially the Republicans). The Calgary School of economics, where he came from, is a mecca of far-right laissez-faire ideology, and he's an avid adherent of social conservative values personally. But he isn't stupid, and he knows most of theses values are in stark contrast with those of most Canadians, so he's embarked on the long game of "boiling the frog"... gradually shifting things to the right, eroding our social safety nets and cultural touchstones, until it's a fête accompli, and we're American's in all but name.


For the most part, he's backed away from the most contentious socially conservative issues. I think it will be a long time before he touches those. The Vic Toews debacle shows that there are a couple of issues that will fire up most Canadians, and those are (hopefully?) things he will tread carefully around. 

I do agree with you, that he's seems to be copying a lot of US Republican policies that are not congruent to my own. If he's moving slowly with it, then we stand a good chance of this not reaching a point of no return before his opponents finally get it together and come up with a halfway decent candidate.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I do agree with you, that he's seems to be copying a lot of US Republican policies that are not congruent to my own.


OK, put it on the table--which Republican policies is he attempting to pass?


----------



## kps

Wowza...this place is like a little Parliament out there in Ottawa...LOL.

and just like the real thing...not to be taken too seriously.

Some of you do get a little too serious and it just derails the whole thread for a while until everybody leaves and stops posting. Then slowly, things start getting back to normal until the next controversy. I like it like that. I have no problem with a little controversy, but if you get involved, suck it up and don't be a :baby: --like when someone says something you don't like or may touch a soft spot in the armour. 

Anyway, just came back from our property up north and that bastard McGuinty is making the poor transport guys fork on family day. He had the north-bound scales open on the 400 pulling every truck in. What a ....


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> OK, put it on the table--which Republican policies is he attempting to pass?


The omnibus crime bill comes to mind.

I may be mistaken in describing it as Republican since exactly who introduced which crime-related measure in the US isn't something I know off the top of my head. But it's an American-flavoured way of doing things, which doesn't seem to be working well in America.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> The omnibus crime bill comes to mind.
> 
> I may be mistaken in describing it as Republican since exactly who introduced which crime-related measure in the US isn't something I know off the top of my head. But it's an American-flavoured way of doing things, which doesn't seem to be working well in America.


The Bill is far too involved to say that as a whole... in certain sections, most notably those dealing with drugs and the notion of minimum sentences I would agree with you but not as a whole.

Even at that the drug portions deal with traffickers and still leaves it up to a judges discretion as to whether or not a given case constitutes trafficking under a certain amount. 

I do agree that the drug portions of the Bill are regressive but until the US has any jurisdictions that decriminalize the simple possession of drugs our laws will not change significantly for fear of reprisal and effectively clogging border crossings to a stand still... something that would cost far more to the economy than any gains to be made from decriminalizing pot.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The omnibus crime bill comes to mind.
> 
> I may be mistaken in describing it as Republican since exactly who introduced which crime-related measure in the US isn't something I know off the top of my head. But it's an American-flavoured way of doing things, which doesn't seem to be working well in America.


Yep. Much of that was passed under Bill Clinton.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Wowza...this place is like a little Parliament out there in Ottawa...LOL.
> 
> and just like the real thing...not to be taken too seriously.
> 
> Some of you do get a little too serious and it just derails the whole thread for a while until everybody leaves and stops posting. Then slowly, things start getting back to normal until the next controversy. I like it like that. I have no problem with a little controversy, but if you get involved, suck it up and don't be a :baby: --like when someone says something you don't like or may touch a soft spot in the armour.
> 
> Anyway, just came back from our property up north and that bastard McGuinty is making the poor transport guys fork on family day. He had the north-bound scales open on the 400 pulling every truck in. What a ....


Some people get their panties in a knot when it's called out straight on. :baby: The the "whuuuut... meeee? prooove it!!!" starts. 

How do you know it's McGuinty. I mean I think we can all blame everything on the guy, he's certainly not my favorite by any means. Or was he there personally, standing there in his suit waving down trucks


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> The omnibus crime bill comes to mind.
> 
> I may be mistaken in describing it as Republican since exactly who introduced which crime-related measure in the US isn't something I know off the top of my head. But it's an American-flavoured way of doing things, which doesn't seem to be working well in America.


It's a little murky US side, because both the repubs and dems are nut cases who both believed locking them all up is the way to go. I suspect if it's looked into in more detail, the republicans will come out on top when it comes to the heavy crime and punishment agenda, unless under Clinton there was the repub congress and that's how that happened.

But you brought up the salient point here, Harper seems to be copying a lot of the policies pursued south of the border that ends up costing a great deal, locking up a whole lot of people, and it doesn't do anything to solve crime. 

But it seems to come down to a discussion of whether it's the repubs or dems fault. Does it matter, in the scheme things to us up here in Canada?


----------



## dstanic

kps said:


> Anyway, just came back from our property up north and that bastard McGuinty is making the poor transport guys fork on family day. He had the north-bound scales open on the 400 pulling every truck in. What a ....


As much as I detest McGuinty, I think with many of the truck drivers it is up to them if they want to work or not. transporting goods is the backbone of everything, so it can't really be stopped for every holiday...


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






To contact the Canadian Senate, go to:
Senators

Leadnow | Stop the Crime Bill: Make Canada Safer, Not Meaner


----------



## SINC

dstanic said:


> As much as I detest McGuinty, I think with many of the truck drivers it is up to them if they want to work or not. transporting goods is the backbone of everything, so it can't really be stopped for every holiday...


kps knows that full well. He has long been a trucker and knows more than most here on the subject.


----------



## groovetube

Something tells me the truckers likely didn't have much of a choice about working today. Yes KPS would be the expert on the subject.

I certainly didn't my boss is a jacka-


----------



## SINC

After Sonal's post admonishing some of us, I post this making no comment, rather to demonstrate a trend:




SINC said:


> An excellent post Sonal and food for thought. I can see myself there and I hope others can too so we can raise the level of debate here. Thanks for taking the time for the virtual kick in the pants.





groovetube said:


> Probably because there are more people than you probably realize that are bothered by it, and *I have received a number of PMs from people who say they'd like to participate, but don't because of the trolling. Or, pushing buttons as you put it. It's been laughed about over pints in the past.*
> 
> *I don't think anyone is guiltless when it comes to bad form at times, certainly I don't profess to be blameless, (though a couple here regularly do...) but there's no excuse for this level of nonsense.*
> 
> *If the level of trolling, and the hue and cries everytime a few critical news items are posted can be reduced*, it'd go a long way to lowering the level of noise here. Because, if I don't react to it, someone else will. And so on, and so on.





Macfury said:


> And yet here, it evokes bitter, salty tears. Fascinating dichotomy!
> 
> My advice? Have a beer when reading the thread and it will all fall into place.





groovetube said:


> *I think you flatter yourself a little too much macfury*.





Sonal said:


> I actually read this thread regularly. I don't always post. It's not the sniping or complaining, it's often that I'm not as familiar or concerned about particular issues to feel compelled to say anything.
> 
> I used to be very bothered by the sniping. I remember being part of that a discussion back when ehMax tried isolating politics to it's own forum. I'm not anymore... it's just noise. Seems the way of every single political discussion on the internet. I've never seen complaining about or replying to the sniping/trolling/insults/etc to actually work in reducing them.
> 
> The few times I've jumped in here, I get perfectly intelligent discussion out of MacFury and others. And yet others still keep saying that they get nothing but trolling and a poor level of debate. Leads me to conclude that I must be doing something different.





groovetube said:


> *Different than a whole bunch of others? Ohhh... I doubt it...*
> 
> I have seen perfectly reasonable posts get the macfury treatment hundreds of time over the last few years. And so have many, others. Perhaps it's because you defend him a little.
> 
> That'll go a long way there.





Macfury said:


> Thar ya go, Miss Sonal--if you's for MacFury, you's agin us... Now choose your ground ma'am and mind the bullets.





Sonal said:


> I defend him a little because I agree with him a little. Why wouldn't I defend what I agree with? It goes the other way, since I agree with you a lot and defend the same. (Probably why I identify myself as politically centrist, an increasingly lonely position it seems.)
> 
> I don't think that it's my posts being reasonable that keep them from largely being untrolled by MF. I think it's more that I understand that MacFury enjoys being a s**tdisturber. JMO of course.





groovetube said:


> How Canadian of you  I don't it'd surprise many to know centrists are in the majority. At least from my perspective.
> 
> That's fine, *it's just that not a lot of people dig the shyte disturbing as it just gets tiresome after a while. As tiresome as this escapade has become anyway.
> 
> A good start would be to keep on topic, rather than the (let's try a macfury-ism) ashes and sackcloths over a few news posts.*
> 
> I appreciate your peaceful stance though.





Macfury said:


> I'm going to be honest here, Sonal. You take care to construct your arguments in a logical and thoughtful manner, so that even if we disagree, it often simply boils down to different philosophical beliefs. When arguments are poorly constructed, or when the poster is evasive, or can't explain what he or she means, the focus shifts to the gaping holes in the arguments instead. If that provokes tears and lashing out, I tend to go for the sharp stick at that point.





groovetube said:


> Let me rephrase this.
> 
> "If you don't post something I feel is worthy of macfury, *then I'll act like an arsehole.
> 
> And if anyone reacts, well, they're just crybabies."*
> 
> This always works well in a political thread on a forum. :clap:





Sonal said:


> It isn't a bad thing.
> 
> But if you're contributing half the jerky posts, you're half the supposed problem. So why complain about the problem when it's half you? (And I know you own up to that, but you do see what I'm getting at?)
> 
> It's like he sets out to bait you and you take the bait every single time. So now, he doesn't even have to bother responding to what you say, he can amuse himself by just poking you and watching you dance. It's an endless cycle. You're the one who says he doesn't like it, and yet you're the one who keeps playing the game.





groovetube said:


> *I'm half the problem?*
> 
> *Again, it's pretty basic, he acts like a jerk, and I give it back. I'm not the only one here to do it, nor will I be the last. This whole idea of 'playing into his hands" is stupidity, pure and simple. And childish. What is this, grade school? *
> 
> I think anyone who sits in a forum baiting people and going after them with a "sharp stick" if they dare shoot back needs help really. But that's his problem.
> 
> I simply take each post at face value. If they want to play games, well, that's not my problem. It's just a forum, and nothing more. I just call it as I see it. Just so happens it's the same as quite a few people here. (and not here now...)





kps said:


> Wowza...this place is like a little Parliament out there in Ottawa...LOL.
> 
> and just like the real thing...not to be taken too seriously.
> 
> Some of you do get a little too serious and it just derails the whole thread for a while until everybody leaves and stops posting. Then slowly, things start getting back to normal until the next controversy. I like it like that. I have no problem with a little controversy, but if you get involved, suck it up and don't be a :baby: --like when someone says something you don't like or may touch a soft spot in the armour.
> 
> Anyway, just came back from our property up north and that bastard McGuinty is making the poor transport guys fork on family day. He had the north-bound scales open on the 400 pulling every truck in. What a ....





groovetube said:


> *Some people get their panties in a knot when it's called out straight on. :baby: The the "whuuuut... meeee? prooove it!!!" starts.*
> 
> How do you know it's McGuinty. I mean I think we can all blame everything on the guy, he's certainly not my favorite by any means. Or was he there personally, standing there in his suit waving down trucks


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> After Sonal's post admonishing some of us, I post this making no comment, rather to demonstrate a trend:


SINC, is there any point to this other than yet another slew of GT bashing? Are you, as they say, part of the solution or part of the problem?


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> SINC, is there any point to this other than yet another slew of GT bashing? Are you, as they say, part of the solution or part of the problem?


Oh let him be. He's just another one that pretends he's above name calling etc. He followed me around in the religious thread to throwing jabs and gettin his kicks in, without contributing to the subject we were debating of course.

But he's above it all you see.


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> SINC, is there any point to this other than yet another slew of GT bashing? Are you, as they say, part of the solution or part of the problem?


mj. I cleaned up my comments in this thread all day after Sonal's observations trying to raise the bar, only to have to see name calling and member bashing continue in spite of nothing derogatory from me towards gt, yet his comments go unchallenged by you or anyone else. I simply cited an example of how it really is and I make no apologies for that.

It is what it is.

And it continues:



groovetube said:


> Oh let him be. *He's just another one that pretends he's above name calling etc.* He followed me around in the religious thread to throwing jabs and gettin his kicks in, without contributing to the subject we were debating of course.
> 
> *But he's above it all you see.*


----------



## groovetube

But that didn't prevent you from following me around in the religious thread and bashing me there now did it?

Wonders never cease.


----------



## SINC

Sorry gt, I'm not debating you. I'm simply quoting you. Night.


----------



## groovetube

ok Sinc, you tell everyone how much better and above all this you are, and I'll head to bed.


----------



## groovetube

Back ontopic.

Read this article, about the government remaking it's case to convince us OAS is unsustainable, although Kevin Page put a bit of a stick in the spokes of that wheel.
Finley to make the case for adjusting Old Age Security - The Globe and Mail

What caught my eye here was one of their big reasons for their concerns.



> In isolation, the rising cost of OAS is sustainable, he said, echoing the view of other experts, including economists and the Parliamentary Budget Officer. But Ottawa and other governments also face health-care costs that will rise even faster.


It was my understanding that Ottawa isn't ramping up health transfer monies. I thought this, was made very clear recently. What am I missing here, an upcoming plan to ramp up spending on health care? I thought the conservative government's position was not doing so. So how can this be a concern to them?

I also noticed this:


> The Conservatives ramped up their attacks on Mr. Page in response, but have not provided their own long-term estimates.


How can they ramp up attacks without providing estimates to back it up? I would have thought if they were so sure, they would have these prepared already for release.


----------



## SINC

The Canadian police chiefs are at it again. Last time they supported a useless long gun registry. This time around, they want to invade your online privacy:

Online surveillance bill backed by police chiefs - British Columbia - CBC News


----------



## kps

dstanic said:


> As much as I detest McGuinty, I think with many of the truck drivers it is up to them if they want to work or not. transporting goods is the backbone of everything, so it can't really be stopped for every holiday...


I lost a float holiday over this silly February day. What I meant was that, McGuinty (the ministry of transport) is making the scalemasters work the MOT scales on a Holiday for Ontario Families. Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if those boys were bringing in time and a half or even double bubble and it was offered as a perk.

...and yeah, trucked for 30years give it a year or two 16 of those with my own rig (Truck & Trailer). So, pretty much made my own hours on that gig, but unlike McGoofie at Queen's park, I never made a big political issue during the election about "Ontario Families".


----------



## kps

SINC said:


> The Canadian police chiefs are at it again. Last time they supported a useless long gun registry. This time around, they want to invade your online privacy:
> 
> Online surveillance bill backed by police chiefs - British Columbia - CBC News


Typical political lackeys, all they want is more bad laws so they can justify and beg for bigger budgets. That bunch makes me sick.


----------



## kps

...The battle rages on. LOL

Last time I looked in here, none of us...and I mean none of us, has a halo.

I don't take sides here, I give my opinion and if I have to, I'll defend my position. If someone objects and wants a civil debate, I'll reciprocate...but if someone throws jabs and starts being stupid, I'll have no qualms about reciprocating in a similar manner or I'll shake my head and ignore the comment altogether. It all depends on my mood and how much effort I want to put into it. I think we're all a pretty good bunch, including all the leftards in here.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> ...The battle rages on. LOL
> 
> Last time I looked in here, none of us...and I mean none of us, has a halo.
> 
> I don't take sides here, I give my opinion and if I have to, I'll defend my position. If someone objects and wants a civil debate, I'll reciprocate...but if someone throws jabs and starts being stupid, I'll have no qualms about reciprocating in a similar manner or I'll shake my head and ignore the comment altogether. It all depends on my mood and how much effort I want to put into it. I think we're all a pretty good bunch, including all the leftards in here.


Well some think they do. But yeah no one does. If the trolling can be reduced that'll help. Perhaps some of the members who told me they don't participate here anymore would come back. I'm sorry to anyone offended for having the audacity to fire back this long. Perhaps as suggested, this is completely, and totally all my fault. How dare I. Trolls are to be defended!

Since we met personally, I do know you're not all bad.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Harper - a history of being nasty*

GuelphMercury - A wish for a gracious Harper

Get rid of da bum!

Brought to you by JNN - "What did you expect?"


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> GuelphMercury - A wish for a gracious Harper
> 
> Get rid of da bum!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "What did you expect?"


Well I doubt we'll be getting rid of "da bum" anytime soon. But the article is right, it does show that this isn't new for Harper, and certainly does reflect the attitudes and classless attempts at vilifying their opponents. Sure, not all parties are guiltless (kinda like here...), but the cons have crossed the line more than once, and this sort of mean spirited classless attack style of politic is getting really old.

I wonder what sort of response we'll see regarding the hurled insult, just like the one hurled at Paul Martin. It could show Harper etc., just hasn't leaned and we''ll continue to see this.


----------



## BigDL

Harper had Towes bark the divide and concur edict this time, last time, Northern Gateway and the time before Attawapisak it was OLG at the lead.

Our Glorious Leader, would be a mean spirited petty despot, if it weren't for the safeguards built into our democracy, so that just leaves mean spirited and petty,which seems to ingratiate him to his disciples.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Libertarians unite! Dump Harper now.*

A letter to the ed from Canada's Prince of Pot!

Individual liberties

Brought to you by JNN - "Uniting the "Right" since 2011"


----------



## BigDL

Only true libertarians' excitement needed.


----------



## groovetube

"Civil libertarians when necessary"


----------



## Macfury

Again, Stephen Harper is not a libertarian. I just disagree with slightly fewer of his policies than those promised by Iggy,


----------



## BigDL

Say no more, Say no more! Nudge, nudge wink, wink


----------



## jimbotelecom

Don't take it personally.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Don't take it personally.


Why wouldn't he when you post it for such reasons.


----------



## groovetube

I don't know that he did do it for such reasons.

Though apparently, if he did, this is ok here.


----------



## BigDL

...baseless accusations? See'em fly?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I don't know that he did do it for such reasons.
> 
> Though apparently, if he did, this is ok here.





BigDL said:


> ...baseless accusations? See'em fly?



Well, let's see there is only one self proclaimed libertarian here and what is the likelihood of this story being linked to if there were zero known libertarians here... I would say likely zero. 

So it is pretty safe to assume it was directly targeted at someone and the subsequent statement to not take it personally was specious to say the least.


----------



## BigDL

...wild accusation territory?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...wild accusation territory?


Hardly... just eyes to see...


----------



## BigDL

...and only an opinion?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...and only an opinion?


A reasonably held one.


----------



## BigDL

There we have it on the record, opinions and conjecture.

Folks, when it comes to conjecture based conclusions made official, you might as well





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> There we have it on the record, opinions and conjecture.
> 
> Folks, when it come to conjecture based conclusions made official, you might as well


Sigh... aren't you a bit too old to engage in such childish games...


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Again, Stephen Harper is not a libertarian. I just disagree with slightly fewer of his policies than those promised by Iggy,


Seeing as there's no viable candidate representing Libertarian views in Canadian politics these days, looks like you're stuck in the same boat as most of the rest of us: The SS Hold Your Nose and Vote.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Seeing as there's no viable candidate representing Libertarian views in Canadian politics these days, looks like you're stuck in the same boat as most of the rest of us: The SS Hold Your Nose and Vote.


Yes, but since our electoral system is so badly broken, you not only have to hold your nose and vote, you have to try to guess how others will be voting with their noses pinched. Ultimately, it serves only the elected politicians interests.


----------



## Max

Speaking of libertarianism, this one made me smile:


----------



## groovetube

har!


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Speaking of libertarianism, this one made me smile:


Pretty darned close!


----------



## BigDL

Knew it! Knew it! She's a goer eh! Eh!

Say no more, say no more, eh!


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Yes, but since our electoral system is so badly broken, you not only have to hold your nose and vote, you have to try to guess how others will be voting with their noses pinched. Ultimately, it serves only the elected politicians interests.


It isn't "so badly broken" just because the government doesn't follow my wishes. The politicians are best served by a populace that hands them more powers and that's just what most voters do--in any system.


----------



## BigDL

Go way 

Say no more. Eh! Nudge, wink, nudge.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> It isn't "so badly broken" just because the government doesn't follow my wishes. The politicians are best served by a populace that hands them more powers and that's just what most voters do--in any system.


These are two separate issues. I agree with you about the latter. But I argue that the electoral system is broken because the first past the post system so often elects a candidate that was least favoured by the majority because the majority vote was split among 2 or 3 far more favourable candidates. The automatic runoff or any of dozens of other voting systems solve this problem and would at least result in the election of candidates that were representative of the votes citizens cast. This would also eliminate strategic voting, which would result in a popular vote distribution that more clearly illustrated the popular support for various platforms.

The issue of governments having too much power is becoming increasingly complex as the corporations they need to govern become increasingly powerful. But I think we probably agree in principle that governments should have as little impact on the freedoms of individual citizens as possible.


----------



## groovetube

If we would only get rid, of majority governments altogether, this may not solve all problems, certainly it wouldn't, but maybe, it would slowly break this RIGHT!! LEFT!!! crap that keeps us from getting anything done.

We only seem to get something don for a minority of the population. This serves no one really.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> These are two separate issues. I agree with you about the latter. But I argue that the electoral system is broken because the first past the post system so often elects a candidate that was least favoured by the majority because the majority vote was split among 2 or 3 far more favourable candidates. The automatic runoff or any of dozens of other voting systems solve this problem and would at least result in the election of candidates that were representative of the votes citizens cast. This would also eliminate strategic voting, which would result in a popular vote distribution that more clearly illustrated the popular support for various platforms.
> 
> _*The issue of governments having too much power is becoming increasingly complex as the corporations they need to govern become increasingly powerful.*_ But I think we probably agree in principle that governments should have as little impact on the freedoms of individual citizens as possible.


It is becoming increasingly obvious that various corporations are governing our governments and therefore us. It is every bit as idiotic to give Corporations this sort of say as it is to extend the same power to a religious entity.


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> It is every bit as idiotic to give Corporations this sort of say as it is to extend the same power to a religious entity.


But tougher to avoid. You can avoid going to church, but it's hard to avoid buying things.


----------



## BigDL

You do have the choice of say the farmer's market vs. "the power centre" big box shopping.


----------



## Sonal

BigDL said:


> You do have the choice of say the farmer's market vs. "the power centre" big box shopping.


For some things. I mean sure, my lettuce comes the local farmer market (I fortunately live near a big one) so if I buy 4 heads of lettuce a month that's a big $6 out of the hands of corporations.

The $100 - 120/month I spend on gas, however, is another story. Or the internet service which (ultimately) ends up adding to Bell's coffers, the couple of hundred dollars I pay for house insurance, the couple of thousand dollars I pay for car insurance.... it's a good thing I don't require any regular medication, so I can avoid Big Pharma for now.

EDIT: Mortgage interest, how can I forget about hundreds per month in mortgage interest...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *If we would only get rid, of majority governments altogether, this may not solve all problems, certainly it wouldn't, but maybe, it would slowly break this RIGHT!! LEFT!!! crap that keeps us from getting anything done.*
> 
> We only seem to get something don for a minority of the population. This serves no one really.


I disagree completely... Minority governments create the same kind of gridlock that exists in the US between Congress and the Senate.

All one has to do to look for proof is the the last minority governments in Canada and the indications are that there is no basis for this statement, all it makes for is constant "electoral mode" with the Opposition ready to topple the government whenever the wind drifts appropriately. Replete with all the more partisan snipping and more obstruction to anything going through committee in a remotely timely fashion which just means more spending on a legislation by legislation basis...

Not to mention such a notion creates a "tyranny of the minority" and is completely anti-democratic.

Just for emphasis, I'm not talking about the FPTP system which certainly has it's flaws, just the notion of "banning" majority governments at all times even when there is a popular vote majority.


----------



## BigDL

Minority Governments can be as raucous as the last few Federal Parliaments or as conducive as the Nova Scotian Legislature under the Hamm Government.

After Dr. Hamm retired, Rodney MacDonald, who acted much like the Harper Conservatives, found out about the tyranny of the majority, got his arse served to him by the voters, while the Liberal had been MIA or lost in the woods, the NDP was anointed with Majority Government unfortunately. 

All it takes is will or the lack thereof for the legislative process to work or to fail. It ain't the majority of the members in the House are the problem, it's people and politics that may combine or may divide a House.

If we had reform of either an electoral system based on majority rather than plurality. In lieu of that, a plurality system reflective of the percentage of votes a party receives at the polls, and a corresponding percentage of the seats in the Parliament/Legislature then I might not be as interested in a minority standing in the House.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I disagree completely... Minority governments create the same kind of gridlock that exists in the US between Congress and the Senate.
> 
> All one has to do to look for proof is the the last minority governments in Canada and the indications are that there is no basis for this statement, all it makes for is constant "electoral mode" with the Opposition ready to topple the government whenever the wind drifts appropriately. Replete with all the more partisan snipping and more obstruction to anything going through committee in a remotely timely fashion which just means more spending on a legislation by legislation basis...
> 
> Not to mention such a notion creates a "tyranny of the minority" and is completely anti-democratic.
> 
> Just for emphasis, I'm not talking about the FPTP system which certainly has it's flaws, just the notion of "banning" majority governments at all times even when there is a popular vote majority.


Sure, the last minority with Harper's my way or the highway didn't work well. But if parties are placed in a situation where they have, to work together, and aren't in constant campaign mode instead of getting things done in a democratic fashion, I'd say it would be a fair bit better than what we have. 

And I don't think it needs to be reiterated some of the things that have been accomplished in minorities in the past. It is indeed, possible.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> For some things. I mean sure, my lettuce comes the local farmer market (I fortunately live near a big one) so if I buy 4 heads of lettuce a month that's a big $6 out of the hands of corporations.
> 
> The $100 - 120/month I spend on gas, however, is another story. Or the internet service which (ultimately) ends up adding to Bell's coffers, the couple of hundred dollars I pay for house insurance, the couple of thousand dollars I pay for car insurance.... it's a good thing I don't require any regular medication, so I can avoid Big Pharma for now.
> 
> EDIT: Mortgage interest, how can I forget about hundreds per month in mortgage interest...


Some things in the marketplace today are hard to purchase except from a large corporation, today we can still avoid large corporations in financial dealings with Credit Unions.

Fuel delivery was not always from Large vendors once upon a time it from the small firms and could be again if the market chose that. Telecoms and electricity were originally franchised and regulated, we the people should organize ourselves to control things to our advantage but usually we are bought off with the notion of a free lunch and then sit around and bitch and complain about how were getting screwed witness how the wireless business has unfolded.


----------



## SINC

As long as our system exists minority governments will be an us against them situation. The minority governing party will always be under threat of recall by the opposition and that is an unhealthy form of government that gets little done. To suggest it is preferable to a majority for getting things done is a delusion.


----------



## BigDL

There's the attitude. Hope for the least and expect the worst.


----------



## SINC

Nice to see you can appreciate the correct analysis. A confrontational do nothing government.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> There's the attitude.


uh yeah.

Anyway, as I said, there have been minorities in the past that did accomplish something.

And I don't think for a minute simply removing the idea of majority governments is that simple. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I thought that would be assumed.

The constant threat of falling, and constant campaign mode is also, what I wouldn't want.

Big wish list.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada under Conservatives not what it used to be*



> ...we’ve never had a Conservative majority in Canada before; we’ve had Progressive Conservative ones. And we certainly have never had a neo-conservative majority that espouses neo-liberal unfettered capitalism that enriches only, well, the already rich. We do now. The Harper government comprises hardline ideologues slinging insults and slogans from an outdated and discredited handbook used by George W. Bush in the U.S. for eight long, war-filled years, which have left our southern neighbour in a politically and economically polarized shambles.
> 
> Now, the government is intent on imposing the same failed Republican ideologies on Canada.


(Joan Baxter / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

The parallels cited above are illusory. Even suggesting that the Conservatives are somehow like the Republicans is complete nonsense.


----------



## SINC

I guess Joan Baxter who wrote this:



> Merely admitting you’re Canadian in some places can prompt angry outbursts about Canadian mining companies, the tarsands and our country’s shameful inaction on climate change.


missed reading this story too?

Simons: Impact of burning all Alberta?s oilsands negligible, scientists argue


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I guess Joan Baxter who wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> missed reading this story too?
> 
> Simons: Impact of burning all Alberta?s oilsands negligible, scientists argue


I guess it prompts Baxter to angry outbursts. What a sad sack.


----------



## i-rui

i guess the two of you missed this part of the article?



> The two scientists certainly don’t give the oilsands a free pass. They note that their paper doesn’t weigh the other environmental consequences of oilsands development, such as their impact on water quality or wildlife habitat.
> 
> (They also don’t include the so-called “well to wheel” life cycle carbon emissions of mining, upgrading, and refining raw bitumen, in part because those numbers are so difficult to objectively prove. They estimate, though, that including those numbers might raise the total carbon impact by 17 per cent.)
> 
> Nor do they argue in favour of building pipelines like Keystone or Gateway.
> 
> Indeed, the paper concludes by advising North American policy-makers to avoid “commitments to new infrastructure supporting dependence on fossil fuels.”
> 
> The real danger of Alberta’s oilsands, as Swart sees it, isn’t the warming caused by burning our bitumen. It is, more subtly, that the oilsands make it all too easy for North Americans to remain reliant to fossil fuel. With so much oil accessible, so close to home, it’s harder to convince people and policy-makers to wean themselves off fossil fuel, period, be it oil, gas or coal.
> 
> “It is absolutely essential that we make a rapid transition to renewal energy,” Swart says. “If we continue to commit to this fossil fuel pathway, then the amount of global warming is going to be significant.”


and regardless of all of that, it doesn't dispel the fact that Canada's reputation has been tarnished under Harper. I think thats pretty clear.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> I guess Joan Baxter who wrote this:
> "Merely admitting you’re Canadian in some places can prompt angry outbursts about Canadian mining companies, the tarsands and our country’s shameful inaction on climate change."


Canadian mining companies have a heavy presence here in Zac, and other parts of Mexico. Labour relations are very much in conflict, one mine in the south of the country is facing accusations of arranging the murder of a union leader, and the environmental repercussions of Canadian mines here and throughout Latin America are notorious.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Canadian mining companies have a heavy presence here in Zac, and other parts of Mexico. Labour relations are very much in conflict, one mine in the south of the country is facing accusations of arranging the murder of a union leader, and the environmental repercussions of Canadian mines here and throughout Latin America are notorious.


Canadian mining companies are not the government last I checked, the government is not accountable for their actions.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Canadian mining companies are not the government last I checked, the government is not accountable for their actions.


Mexico, of course, being the epitome of environmental excellence. But then there are those rumours about somebody killing somebody... maybe. Give me a break!


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Mexico, of course, being the epitome of environmental excellence. But then there are those rumours about somebody killing somebody... maybe. Give me a break!


How on earth did you wind up inferring that I am claiming Mexico is the epitome of environmental excellence? Your logic trail is broken.

As for Mining companies not being the government - no, but they do exert no small amount of influence in their lobbying efforts, and the Canadian government (current or past) has done little to encourage that they clean up their act - Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) being the biggest joke played upon "development" in recent years.


----------



## i-rui

Parliamentary budget officer asks Harper for pension plan proof



> ``I would also strongly encourage the Government of Canada to fulfil the commitment it made in Budget 2007 to publish a `comprehensive fiscal sustainability and intergenerational report,' '' wrote Page.
> 
> That budget, which was Flaherty's second as finance minister, promised to release a report later that year that would ``provide a broad analysis of current and future demographic changes and the implication of these changes for Canada's long-run economic and fiscal outlook.''
> 
> Moreover, Flaherty's budget said that ``publication of a report on fiscal sustainability is motivated by the government's view that maintaining sustainable public finances at all orders of government is a critical condition to achieving intergenerational equity and strong and sustained economic growth.''
> 
> Four years later, the report has not been released - raising the prospect that the governing Tories are deliberately hiding research conducted at taxpayer expense because it does not suitably support the government's political plans.
> 
> In an interview with Postmedia News Thursday, Page said the government's refusal to release key reports such as this is notable - given that the Tories are planning cutbacks in the rate of growth for health transfers to provinces and for the Old Age Security (OAS) pension plan.
> 
> He said Flaherty is ``making multibillion-dollar decisions that are going to affect the future of this country, that are going to affect fiscal federalism, that will affect the provinces.''
> 
> ``And where's their analysis? Nada. Nothing.''


Kevin Page FTW!


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> How on earth did you wind up inferring that I am claiming Mexico is the epitome of environmental excellence? Your logic trail is broken.
> 
> As for Mining companies not being the government - no, but they do exert no small amount of influence in their lobbying efforts, and the Canadian government (current or past) has done little to encourage that they clean up their act - Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) being the biggest joke played upon "development" in recent years.


Surely it should be the jurisdiction of the governments of the countries that they are doing business in to make them clean up their act and not our government.


----------



## BigDL

Canadian is Canadian is Canadian.

Organizations that scuff up our reputation whether corporate or governmental are tarnishing our presence in the world.

The Canadian Flag is easily identified and is a brand symbol for Canada.

The Government should be wary what is done in our name to protect the Canadian brand.


----------



## BigDL

*Echos of the Gun Registry?*

The government estimates are low balling the real costs of intrusions into our privacy?

Conservative costs?



CBCNews said:


> It's going to cost at least $80 million to implement the government's lawful access bill to force internet service providers to collect customer information in case police need it for an investigation, CBC News has learned.
> 
> C-30, a bill to update Canadian law when it comes to crimes committed online, will cost $20 million a year for the first four years and $6.7 million a year after that, Public Safety Canada told the CBC's Hannah Thibedeau on Wednesday.
> 
> A spokesperson for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews wouldn't provide any more information about the costs. It's not clear if those are the only costs associated with the legislation.


 Well there's a surprise, Our Glorious Leader doesn't want to let out information on the spending of our money, once again.


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> The government estimates are low balling the real costs of intrusions into our privacy?
> 
> Conservative costs?
> 
> Well there's a surprise, Our Glorious Leader doesn't want to let out information on the spending of our money, once again.


If this proves to be any where nearly as accurate as the long gun registry guesstimates, we can safely anticipate somewhere in the $10 Billion$ range at least in the near term.

Nothing the Cons have done to date, would indicate they have any clue as to what any of their proposals will really cost. F-35s just one example.


----------



## BigDL

+1 True that.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Canadian is Canadian is Canadian.
> 
> Organizations that scuff up our reputation whether corporate or governmental are tarnishing our presence in the world.
> 
> The Canadian Flag is easily identified and is a brand symbol for Canada.
> 
> The Government should be wary what is done in our name to protect the Canadian brand.


What's priceless is when western companies go over to the 3rd world countries to have products made, only to discover say, lead in some of their products. Then they holler it's the host country's fault.

As if it never crossed their minds that standards are much lower there (hence the reason for going there in the first place...)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> How on earth did you wind up inferring that I am claiming Mexico is the epitome of environmental excellence? Your logic trail is broken.
> 
> As for Mining companies not being the government - no, but they do exert no small amount of influence in their lobbying efforts, and the Canadian government (current or past) has done little to encourage that they clean up their act - Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) being the biggest joke played upon "development" in recent years.


You didn't infer it. I am bringing it up.

And the Canadian government is not responsible for what corporations do in other countries. That's the Mexican government's purview.


----------



## groovetube

so much for these corporations having any human's best interests at heart,


----------



## CubaMark

Unless, of course, enacting environmental or labour standards presents an "unfair barrier to trade" under NAFTA or WTO regulations....


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> The government estimates are low balling the real costs of intrusions into our privacy?
> 
> Conservative costs?
> 
> Well there's a surprise, Our Glorious Leader doesn't want to let out information on the spending of our money, once again.


Since the new prison system is going to cost the provinces extra, I think that we should charge prisoners in our prison system for room and board to help offset these prison costs. Then, for the additional telecommunication costs which will be passed on to consumers, we should use these prisoners as a labor force. When I was teaching in Georgia, there were chain gangs to clean up the kudzu along the roads. While Canada does not have kudzu, we could use these chain gangs to shovel snow for municipalities or even for individuals. Imagine a small chain gang clearing out the driveway of an elderly widow of all the snow that fell overnight? Since she won't have to pay for this clean up, she won't miss any cutbacks to the OAS. 

Or, we could just forget about Bill C-30 when civil libertarians and the economists have their say as to the social and financial impact of the bill??? We shall see.


----------



## BigDL

Perhaps putting the cost of accommodations in prison back onto the families for feed and water et al, as some countries in Central and South America, are wont to do.

To insure the viability of prison labour don't let them out of the sealed walls. Forget chain gangs have call centres establish with prison labour, that would indeed be a fitting punishment. 

To further increase the need for C-30 we should insure the prisoner's call centres are in the financial services industry. 

Might be a good fit ex-cons trained for insurance, investing and banking services, seems to me, these folks just might have the suitability and adaptability for this line of work given the manner in which these outfits attempt to pick us clean of our hard earned dollars presently.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> so much for these corporations having any human's best interests at heart,


I don't recall *anyone* saying that ever.


----------



## groovetube

Well I sure got a lot of heat for pointing out this out before.

But I'm certainly glad, that this is something obvious and agreed upon.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I don't recall *anyone* saying that ever.


It's part of a mistaken belief that these organizations are in business to do favours for people.


----------



## BigDL

Urrrrrgh, Uuuurrrrrrgh! Eh!

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, 

Say no more, say no more.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Urrrrrgh, Uuuurrrrrrgh! Eh!
> 
> Nudge, nudge, wink, wink,
> 
> Say no more, say no more.


ha ha ha. Yeah.


----------



## Dr.G.

"It's going to cost at least $80 million to implement the government's lawful access bill to force internet and telecommunications service providers to collect customer information in case police need it for an investigation, CBC News has learned.

C-30, a bill to update Canadian law when it comes to crimes committed online, will cost $20 million a year for the first four years and $6.7 million a year after that, Public Safety Canada told the CBC's Hannah Thibedeau on Wednesday." Is that all??? I had visions of far greater costs. That would not even buy one wing of an F-35 fighter jet. This cost could easily be passed on to the consumer. It won't be as easy for the consumer to pay these increased fees, but the various telecom companies are not in the business of, as Macfury accurately points out, "... to do favours for people." Of course, these telecommunication providers should not be the "arms of the government".


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Well I sure got a lot of heat for pointing out this out before.
> 
> But I'm certainly glad, that this is something obvious and agreed upon.


Yes because you have always stated you beliefs as a tautological statement such as "corporations do not work for people" or some such... most recently...



groovetube said:


> so much for these corporations having *any* human's best interests at heart,


Many corporations do work for the benefit of people while many other don't (other than their shareholder's who whether you like it or not they are people as well).

Thus why, at least in my case, I have debated with you... you just stated another absolute statement that I disagreed with because there was never any agreement/disagreement with your tautological perspective because the issue is simply not tautological in nature. In the past it wasn't your argument that was insinuated as being flawed but the very premise on which it was based... a completely different matter.


----------



## groovetube

"tautological"... "tautological"... "tautological"...

Well. I never. 

My view is that corporations only work for it's own benefit. That's how it's designed. If it benefits people, well that's a side benefit. Generally, the people who have interests in the corporation. (if it makes profits).


----------



## BigDL

add a chug-a-chuga, chug-a-chuga, "tautological"..."tautological"..."tautological"... I think I can, and before you know it your over the hill.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> "tautological"... "tautological"... "tautological"...
> 
> Well. I never.
> 
> *My view is that corporations only work for it's own benefit*. That's how it's designed. If it benefits people, well that's a side benefit. Generally, the people who have interests in the corporation. (if it makes profits).


And in some circumstances that is the only motive, not in all... as you seem to be want to espouse... thus why I don't agree with your basic "black and white" statement/premise (seeing as you don't like one word to express several)...

We have been down this road before... it is all too tired a subject for me as there is nothing new to be garnered from continuing to discuss it between us.

Anyone else...? And by anyone else I don't mean you gt... let's see if you can resist your natural urge to respond to everything I post in this thread....


----------



## BigDL

...there you go, over the hill, like I said.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> add a chug-a-chuga, chug-a-chuga, "tautological"..."tautological"..."tautological"... I think I can, and before you know it your over the hill.


Where is Max when we need him for some half decent attempt at poetry and satire/irony....


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...there you go, over the hill, like I said.


No dude you are over the hill, I haven't even reached the summit yet.  beejacon


----------



## BigDL

...aiming for indecent, great success!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> ...aiming for indecent, great success!


I have no idea what you are talking about but that isn't surprising as your posts have become increasingly incomprehensible.... but by all means carry on.... it's a forum and you are free to say whatever you wish...


----------



## BigDL

Woooh-OH! Let off with a warning.


----------



## groovetube

oh man. You can't win for losing sometimes.

There's no challenge or fight in my post or opinion. Though I apologize, I did poke a little fun at the term tautological, sorry it was kinda funny and it rhymes with scatological.

But I digress. Since I have been barred from having a discussion on the subject of corporations, time for a single malt.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> time for a single malt.


Why stop with one?


----------



## groovetube

ha


----------



## Max

'tis time for a drink
it will augment the chatter~
let your fine booze flow


----------



## groovetube

he's really back!


----------



## Max

politics, oh dear~
a welter of posturing;
the fool's game we love


----------



## BigDL

Thankx Max the pressure's off
truly are the payers of Screature answered?
the thread decorum should improve


----------



## Macfury

I get Max's poems. The one above... huh?


----------



## i-rui

Fraudulent election calls traced to Racknine Inc., an Edmonton firm with Tory links | News | National Post

i hope those responsible do time for this.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> Fraudulent election calls traced to Racknine Inc., an Edmonton firm with Tory links | News | National Post
> 
> i hope those responsible do time for this.


Now that's the kind of tough on crime stance we should be talking about...lol

Better get Harper building those new prisons.


----------



## groovetube

somehow, I don't think those are the droids they're looking for.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> Fraudulent election calls traced to Racknine Inc., an Edmonton firm with Tory links | News | National Post
> 
> i hope those responsible do time for this.





kps said:


> Now that's the kind of tough on crime stance we should be talking about...lol
> 
> Better get Harper building those new prisons.


Expect that omnibus crime bill has built in pardons for any crime involving fraud.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> Now that's the kind of tough on crime stance we should be talking about...lol
> 
> Better get Harper building those new prisons.


i don't think we'll need to build new jails to lock up those responsible for the election day fraud...... unless you're suggesting the entire conservative party is guilty?


----------



## Sonal

Speaking of the crime bill, if you would like to send a letter to your Senator asking them not to rubberstamp it....
Leadnow | Stop the Crime Bill: Make Canada Safer, Not Meaner


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

kps said:


> Now that's the kind of tough on crime stance we should be talking about...lol
> 
> Better get Harper building those new prisons.


The Cons added a mandatory minimum for election fraud to their Omnibus Crime Bill. 

The mandatory minimum sentence is 4 more years of the Harper Government. [rimshot] [/rimshot]

But seriously, how do Harper Cons even hold up their heads in public when they do business with a company whose purpose is to spoof caller IDs on robocalls? How is that even a legal business practice in the first place and why would the "open and transparent" Conservatives be associated with it?

I'm hoping the Elections Canada's investigation doesn't wimp out like it did during their investigations into robocalls in Saanich-Gulf Islands the election before last, when Conservative Gary Lunn won a narrow victory. They gave up and said that the calling the day before the election couldn't be traced because the originating phone number was spoofed. Strangely, (or not so strangely) big money backers of Lunn's campaign were principals in a similar robocall company.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> i don't think we'll need to build new jails to lock up those responsible for the election day fraud...... unless you're suggesting the entire conservative party is guilty?


Which day are you referencing the robocall fraud or the earlier election spending limits fraud they (now Ex-Cons pleaded guilty to,) saved their Senators from investigation? The one that swept them into minority power. Or both?


----------



## eMacMan

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> ...
> But seriously, how do Harper Cons even hold up their heads in public when they do business with a company whose purpose is to spoof caller IDs on robocalls? How is that even a legal business practice in the first place and why would the "open and transparent" Conservatives be associated with it?
> ....


There are rumours that King Harpo has banned all public appearances by party faithful. An exception will be made if the member is allowed to wear a parka to hide the whiplash collar.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> i don't think we'll need to build new jails to lock up those responsible for the election day fraud...... unless you're suggesting the entire conservative party is guilty?


I'm wondering if my sarcasm eluded some. I found your tough stance rather ironic, but I would agree with you that stern punishment should be exercised.

However, true or false, I doubt it'll ever be proven linked to anyone higher than some overzealous party members.



> But seriously, how do Harper Cons even hold up their heads in public when they do business with a company whose purpose is to spoof caller IDs on robocalls? How is that even a legal business practice in the first place and why would the "open and transparent" Conservatives be associated with it?


Good question Sauce, but politics is really becoming a dirty game in Canada. Very polarized and too many 3rd parties (unions, lobby groups, etc.) getting involved at unprecedented levels.

As far as the company is concerned...my guess is that every telemarketer that uses them loves that spoofing feature.


----------



## BigDL

:lmao: Unions were part and parcel of the NDP/NPD, in 1960, maybe it has entered the conscientiousness of some on the right with the faulting steps of Liberal Party, who knows.

The excitement over lobbyists and not over the omnipresence of Big Business always backing Conservative Party and the Liberal Party is again too funny. 

The measure of backing from Big Business only changes with the expected results. If there is a fifty fifty chance for the Old Parties there is no difference in funding. If one of the Old Parties are the likely winner, Big Business backs that Party heavily, Big Business throws some money, (lesser amount) at the Party on the short end of the stick also.

Then Big Business funds and send in the Big Professional Lobbyists as well. Many times the Lobbyists were the former recipients of Big Business political campaign funds.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> I'm wondering if my sarcasm eluded some. I found your tough stance rather ironic, but I would agree with you that stern punishment should be exercised.


i understood the sacrasim, that's why i answered the way i did.

but there's nothing ironic on my tough stance. i have no problem with harshly punishing those convicted of *serious* crimes. I would consider subverting our democracy a very serious crime. I wouldn't consider some kid selling pot to his friends one though.

and i'm also against mandatory minimums in all but the most heinous of crimes. let judges do what they're paid to do, and actually judge the weight of the sentence against all factors of the accused & the crime.




kps said:


> However, true or false, I doubt it'll ever be proven linked to anyone higher than some overzealous party members.


you're probably right, but even if it's just one overzealous party member who takes the fall, if he ends up doing a year or 2 in a federal prison i doubt we'd see some lackey stick their neck out for the next election.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

i-rui said:


> you're probably right, but even if it's just one overzealous party member who takes the fall, if he ends up doing a year or 2 in a federal prison i doubt we'd see some lackey stick their neck out for the next election.


I somehow think a single rogue pawn would be a bit of a stretch considering there were complaints about this over many ridings. There must have been some level of co-ordination.

I wonder, have the Conservatives been fully co-operating with this investigation or have they lawyered up and planning to stonewall the whole thing, as they've done before?

I'd say stonewall and deny would be the best bet, seeing as Con officials have already refused to tell anyone how much business their party did with Racknine and what the content of those robocalls would be. Time for another Gomery show?

Maybe they'll get Van Loan out there again to protest that these robocalls is just another example of vital free speech, as he did during the Cotler robocall incident.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Harper denies knowledge of "black ops" phone calls during 2011 election - The Globe and Mail

"And in all of my years of public life, I have never obstructed justice. And I think, too, that I can say that in my years of public life, that I welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not their President is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook."

-- US President Richard M. Nixon


----------



## i-rui

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I somehow think a single rogue pawn would be a bit of a stretch considering there were complaints about this over many ridings. There must have been some level of co-ordination.


oh i agree. there was definite co-oridination in what was done. I'm just saying i wouldn't be surprised if one lower level guy ends up taking the fall.

That's why i hope there is serious jail time for those responsible, so even if some little pawn "takes one for the team" and gets charged, if he ends up doing jail time it will make the next lackey less likely to follow orders.


----------



## BigDL

When there is little chance of being nailed for being connected to this robocall dust up Our Glorious Leader is quite willing to throw the book at the culprit(s)

When OGL got what he wanted, a stable *MAJORITY* government, the ends justifies the means.

The ex-Cons were all cocky with the so called "In And Out" scandal even after the guilty plea, to save Senators from becoming ex-Cons, because they won, won a minority government after such misdeeds.

Now it's a one up win for the Majority Government. Perhaps it's more than coincidence the close seats fell into the Cons laps. Perhaps we will soon need international observers to see if Canadians elections are being conducted in a free, open and fair elections with the governing parties actions.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Now it's a one up win for the Majority Government. Perhaps it's more than coincidence the close seats fell into the Cons laps. Perhaps we will soon need international observers to see if Canadians elections are being conducted in a free, open and fair elections with the governing parties actions.


Like the oversight for union votes, perhaps?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Like the oversight for union votes, perhaps?


Can you be more clear with this comment? What are you referring to specifically?


----------



## groovetube

ha ha, good luck with that.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> When there is little chance of being nailed for being connected to this robocall dust up Our Glorious Leader is quite willing to throw the book at the culprit(s)
> 
> When OGL got what he wanted, a stable *MAJORITY* government, the ends justifies the means.
> 
> The ex-Cons were all cocky with the so called "In And Out" scandal even after the guilty plea, to save Senators from becoming ex-Cons, because they won, won a minority government after such misdeeds.
> 
> Now it's a one up win for the Majority Government. Perhaps it's more than coincidence the close seats fell into the Cons laps. Perhaps we will soon need international observers to see if Canadians elections are being conducted in a free, open and fair elections with the governing parties actions.


Certainly, he managed to squeak it on by.

Here's a list of squeakers...



> Nipissing-Timiskaming (Ontario): 14
> Labrador (Newfoundland & Labrador): 231
> Bramalea-Gore-Malton (Ontario): 538
> Etobicoke Centre (Ontario): 26
> Saskatoon-Rosetown-Biggar (Saskatchewan): 538
> Elmwood-Transcona (Manitoba): 284
> Montmagny-L’islet-Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup(Quebec): 110
> Lotbinière-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière (Quebec): 777
> Don Valley West (Ontario): 639
> Mississauga East-Cooksville (Ontario): 661
> Winnipeg South Centre (Manitoba): 696
> Yukon: 132
> Desnethé-Missinippi-Churchill River (Saskatchewan): 789
> Palliser (Saskatchewan): 766
> 
> TOTAL deciding votes for the Cons: 6201


With such close calls like this, you have to wonder what would happen after some disappointments among some of the swing voters. come next election.


----------



## groovetube

thestar.com mobile: article

One has to wonder why this government defends the warrantless snooping bill so much...


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> With such close calls like this, you have to wonder what would happen after some disappointments among some of the swing voters. come next election.


With the long gun registry long gone, rural or western seats, which most of those are, will likely stay solidly Conservative.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> With the long gun registry long gone, rural or western seats, which most of those are, will likely stay solidly Conservative.


I don't doubt that you're right. Though I wonder about BC, and a few other spots. Note that this close calls up there aren't "solidly conservative" at all.

Of course it really depends on who the other two pick as leaders. If they're dumb enough to pick duds, well, not much can help them.


----------



## CubaMark

_How long until the "Great White North" becomes the "Sad Black Gooey North"?_

*Transport Canada OK's Northern Gateway Supertankers*



> Transport Canada said it has finished its review of the proposed tanker traffic that would sail through waters off B.C.'s North Coast, taking crude from the Alberta oilsands to overseas markets in China.
> 
> "While there will always be residual risk in any project, after reviewing the proponent's studies and taking into account the proponent's commitments, no regulatory concerns have been identified for the vessels, vessel operations, the proposed routes, navigability, other waterway users and the marine terminal operations associated with vessels supporting the Northern Gateway Project," said Transport Canada.





> Northern Gateway has attracted fierce opposition from First Nations, environmental and other groups who fear an oil spill from the pipeline itself or from tankers sailing through narrow coastal channels could cause grave ecological harm.


(HuffingtonPost Canada)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> _How long until the "Great White North" becomes the "Sad Black Gooey North"?_


It won't/


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> It won't/


I wouldn't have figured you for a man of faith. Something that has a non-zero probability of occurring *must* occur given enough time. We know that ships run aground, and if you've ever been to the region in question, you'd be astounded that it does not happen more often. We also know that oil spills are particularly devastating to the ecology of the pacific northwest. Furthermore, we know that oil companies and their political puppets are prone to minimize these issues, and leave the public on the hook for cleaning up the consequences.

So an oil spill is inevitable if this plan goes ahead.

Oil tankers operating out of Kitimat are a recipe for disaster.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> I wouldn't have figured you for a man of faith. Something that has a non-zero probability of occurring *must* occur given enough time. We know that ships run aground, and if you've ever been to the region in question, you'd be astounded that it does not happen more often. We also know that oil spills are particularly devastating to the ecology of the pacific northwest. Furthermore, we know that oil companies and their political puppets are prone to minimize these issues, and leave the public on the hook for cleaning up the consequences.
> 
> So an oil spill is inevitable if this plan goes ahead.
> 
> Oil tankers operating out of Kitimat are a recipe for disaster.


With that kind of logic you must lead a simple life without flying or driving or walking across the street or a thousand other things where an accident is "inevitable". You don't take risks and do any of that type of thing, do you?


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> I wouldn't have figured you for a man of faith. Something that has a non-zero probability of occurring *must* occur given enough time. We know that ships run aground, and if you've ever been to the region in question, you'd be astounded that it does not happen more often. We also know that oil spills are particularly devastating to the ecology of the pacific northwest. Furthermore, we know that oil companies and their political puppets are prone to minimize these issues, and leave the public on the hook for cleaning up the consequences.
> 
> So an oil spill is inevitable if this plan goes ahead.
> 
> Oil tankers operating out of Kitimat are a recipe for disaster.


Sure he's a man of faith, he believes in un-seen hands, doing all manner of things. Accidents won't happen, when men of will, put their faith to it.


----------



## Macfury

Even if some oil escapes at some point, it won't transform the entire area into a permanent Sad Black Gooey North. If all endeavours required 100% guarantees that no duck will ever die, nothing would ever happen.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> With that kind of logic you must lead a simple life without flying or driving or walking across the street or a thousand other things where an accident is "inevitable". You don't take risks and do any of that type of thing, do you?


I'm happy to take calculated risks with my own life/property, and I recognize that you can't eliminate all possible risks to the environment when considering an industrial development. However, there are reasonable risks, and stupid risks. Shipping crude oil out of a port surrounded by pristine wilderness in a part of the world that experiences some of the most extreme weather, tidal currents, and other hazards to shipping of anywhere in the world goes beyond stupid into the realm of :yikes: The only people who would even consider this are the people who will walk away from the mess with truckloads of money.


----------



## jimbotelecom

CONS sell weaponry to Saudi oppressors 

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/02/24/...-afghan-war-used-to-crush-dissent-in-bahrain/

Brought to you by JNN - "easy to smell this govt...chit"


----------



## Macfury

Charge GST on food, economists say - Business - CBC News

I agree with this idea. Tax all consumer items and cut income taxes.


----------



## groovetube

I think that was the criticism initially of the vote buying gst cut. Income taxes on Canadians (not corps either...) should have been cut, but instead the cons rolled back some cuts to implement their gst cut.

That was the first clue to me that they were not thinking this through.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Charge GST on food, economists say - Business - CBC News
> 
> I agree with this idea. Tax all consumer items and cut income taxes.


Those two economists are idiots. Taxing food in turn taxes the poorest of the poor at the very heart of their limited spending power. Shame on them for even thinking such a thing.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Those two economists are idiots. Taxing food in turn taxes the poorest of the poor at the very heart of their limited spending power. Shame on them for even thinking such a thing.


SINC: This can be addressed at the income tax return level with rebates for very poor Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

How about we simply dump this ridiculous notion that handing billions and billions in corp tax cuts creates jobs (not...) and give some tax relief to ordinary hard working canadians.

Just for a start, before, we get to these sorts of ideas.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Those two economists are idiots. Taxing food in turn taxes the poorest of the poor at the very heart of their limited spending power. Shame on them for even thinking such a thing.


While I won't go as far as calling them "idiots", I feel that this sort of tax would hurt, as you correctly contend, the poorest segment of our society. I don't agree with their contention that this "... cash bonanza could be used to cut income taxes, fund social services, or both ...." I don't see the federal government plowing back these sorts of savings to fund a better social safety net. I can just imagine the increased demand upon food banks if this tax was brought about in the near future.


----------



## groovetube

Peter MacKay runs from questions over 'stupid' military dirt digging on Liberal foe | News | National Post

And then using the military to drag up dirt on the other guy.

That's real class.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Peter MacKay runs from questions over 'stupid' military dirt digging on Liberal foe | News | National Post
> 
> And then using the military to drag up dirt on the other guy.
> 
> That's real class.


Lay off Peter MacKay, gt. How was he supposed to know that his own office invited 
Scott Simms, the MP for Bonavista-Gander-Grand Falls-Windsor here in NL , to go on this Cormorant??? How can a minister know everything that his or her department does in the run of a day? They wanted info on search and rescue so they invited Simms to go and report back to the minister. How could MacKay know how foolish he would look when he requested info on Simms from the military????

Luckily, there are some F-35s just itching to come to Canada and take our minds off of MacKay's helicopter "joy ride". We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Peter MacKay runs from questions over 'stupid' military dirt digging on Liberal foe | News | National Post
> 
> And then using the military to drag up dirt on the other guy.
> 
> That's real class.


+1

MacKay is in a class by himself, in the corner, facing the walls, with a pointy hat or he should be, IMO.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ... and give some tax relief to ordinary hard working canadians.


Why are ordinary Canadians considered hard-working? But yes, extending GST to all items, while lowering income taxes is what I had in mind.


----------



## groovetube

they aren't?

I didn't realize only the rich works hard.


----------



## groovetube

Tory staffer leaves MP’s office in wake of voter-suppression probe - The Globe and Mail

Run! Flee the ship!


----------



## BigDL

The first rats off a sinking ship usually finds the nicest nests.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> they aren't?
> 
> I didn't realize only the rich works hard.


Not at all. But being "ordinary" doesn't mean you work hard either.


----------



## BigDL

Eh! Eh! Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Say no more, say no more.


----------



## groovetube

pffft. Well at least we aren't talking about the actual topic anymore.

I leave him to sort out the details for now.


----------



## i-rui

petition for a full independent inquiry into the fraudulent election robocalls

Leadnow | Robocall Scandal: Demand answers


----------



## Macfury

The petition goes too far for me to sign it. I would support an investigation, but not a series of by-elections.


----------



## groovetube

Hey if there is election fraud, I say do the by-elections.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Hey if there is election fraud, I say do the by-elections.


I'm sure you would. However, a by-election should have been demanded directly after the election for them as wants it--regardless of whether the source of the robocalls had been identified at that time.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Hey if there is election fraud, I say do the by-elections.


I tend to agree. An exception is of course Chicago where election fraud is defined as an honest election.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I'm sure you would. However, a by-election should have been demanded directly after the election for them as wants it--regardless of whether the source of the robocalls had been identified at that time.


and why would that happen, if it wasn't known there was election fraud?

If a conservative won fair and square, fine. But this, is ridiculous.


----------



## BigDL

Watch out for them that want to talking in circles, talking circles, circle talking, in circles, talking...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> The petition goes too far for me to sign it. I would support an investigation, but not a series of by-elections.


It said _possible_ by-elections. But it would take a lot to convince me that by-elections are required as well.

While I think the actions of anyone using spoof number robo-calls to attempt vote suppression is disgusting, I would doubt that there were many cases where these actions could have changed the result. If an investigation showed that enough people turned up at one of the fraudulent venues to vote and then weren't able to get to the proper polling places and if this was in a riding with a very close result, there might be a case where a by-election would be warranted.

But first I would like to see a full investigation of this, in the form of a full public inquiry. 

This has to be bigger than one or two overly enthusiastic youthful staffers. The voter list data from the multiple ridings is only made available to the local campaigns or to national party offices, according to what I've read. It's unlikely some random nut-job who happened to know how to access all this info and how to connect with a robocalling firm could have put all this together, especially for multiple ridings, without some higher level of co-ordination.

The Cons are the obvious suspects here because of their past dirty tricks around elections that have already been brought to light. Not to say that this necessarily leads right to the top, but if he really is not a crook, as Harper claims, then he should be eager to expose those who might be within his ranks who are making his party look bad. 

Time for some of that long-promised openness, accountability and transparency, Mr. Prime Minister.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> It said _possible_ by-elections. But it would take a lot to convince me that by-elections are required as well.
> 
> While I think the actions of anyone using spoof number robo-calls to attempt vote suppression is disgusting, I would doubt that there were many cases where these actions could have changed the result. If an investigation showed that enough people turned up at one of the fraudulent venues to vote and then weren't able to get to the proper polling places and if this was in a riding with a very close result, there might be a case where a by-election would be warranted.
> 
> But first I would like to see a full investigation of this, in the form of a full public inquiry.
> 
> This has to be bigger than one or two overly enthusiastic youthful staffers. The voter list data from the multiple ridings is only made available to the local campaigns or to national party offices, according to what I've read. It's unlikely some random nut-job who happened to know how to access all this info and how to connect with a robocalling firm could have put all this together, especially for multiple ridings, without some higher level of co-ordination.
> 
> The Cons are the obvious suspects here because of their past dirty tricks around elections that have already been brought to light. Not to say that this necessarily leads right to the top, but if he really is not a crook, as Harper claims, then he should be eager to expose those who might be within his ranks who are making his party look bad.
> 
> Time for some of that long-promised openness, accountability and transparency, Mr. Prime Minister.


:clap:


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> Tory staffer leaves MP’s office in wake of voter-suppression probe - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Run! Flee the ship!


Looks good. Poor 23 year old CON could be finding out what the newly refurbished Kingston Pen will be all about in 2 years time. 

There is no hiding the evidence as Bell has all the call records for Guelph. 

Book em Dano!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Andrew Coyne: All too plausible to think the Conservatives are involved in the robocall scandal | Full Comment | National Post



> It is a party that believes it has had to fight twice as hard to get where it is, a belief that has only hardened through each of the many compromises it has made on the way. The progression is sadly familiar. Having first compromised its beliefs, a party finds it is easier to compromise its principles; having compromised its principles, it learns to compromise its ethics; and compromises of ethics, as we have seen in other parties, lead sooner or later to compromises with the law.


----------



## BigDL

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> It said _possible_ by-elections. But it would take a lot to convince me that by-elections are required as well.
> 
> While I think the actions of anyone using spoof number robo-calls to attempt vote suppression is disgusting, I would doubt that there were many cases where these actions could have changed the result. If an investigation showed that enough people turned up at one of the fraudulent venues to vote and then weren't able to get to the proper polling places and if this was in a riding with a very close result, there might be a case where a by-election would be warranted.
> 
> But first I would like to see a full investigation of this, in the form of a full public inquiry.
> 
> This has to be bigger than one or two overly enthusiastic youthful staffers. The voter list data from the multiple ridings is only made available to the local campaigns or to national party offices, according to what I've read. It's unlikely some random nut-job who happened to know how to access all this info and how to connect with a robocalling firm could have put all this together, especially for multiple ridings, without some higher level of co-ordination.
> 
> The Cons are the obvious suspects here because of their past dirty tricks around elections that have already been brought to light. Not to say that this necessarily leads right to the top, but if he really is not a crook, as Harper claims, then he should be eager to expose those who might be within his ranks who are making his party look bad.
> 
> Time for some of that long-promised openness, accountability and transparency, Mr. Prime Minister.


Sauce one thing to keep in mind with whole ordeal is the sophistication of the organizing of the information to make the robocalls so effective.

The Cons pride themselves on their ability to identify the vote and mobilize their vote. Through the process of identifying their vote they also identify who is not voting for them.

The voters identified in the opposing camps were passed along to the robocall centre in Edmonton. This happened in many ridings coast to coast to coast. I believe your assessment of this not being limited to young rouge whipper snappers is correct. How far up the food chain this or any investigation goes is anyones guess.

I suspect without heavy duty pressure form the people it will not go far. I suspect, in the risk benefit assessment of this idea, the leaders counted on a public's view of "what's the difference they're all crooks anyway, who cares who's in and who's out."


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The petition goes too far for me to sign it. I would support an investigation, but not a series of by-elections.


the good thing about all the 'leadnow' petitions is you can edit the letter to reflect your views before submitting.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yeah! Let's go for a royal commission on CON thug activities. 

Book em Dano!


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the good thing about all the 'leadnow' petitions is you can edit the letter to reflect your views before submitting.


I'll check it out again then, thanks.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> the good thing about all the 'leadnow' petitions is you can edit the letter to reflect your views before submitting.


To carp about OGL? How could that even come close to the needs of a few.


----------



## BigDL

*Voter Repression?*

Seems to make a lot of sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XkcWN9DSKY


----------



## Macfury

"The end of the age of innocence"? Thanks for a morning laugh!


----------



## groovetube

from adscam, to robocalls.


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Looks good. Poor 23 year old CON could be finding out what the newly refurbished Kingston Pen will be all about in 2 years time.
> 
> There is no hiding the evidence as Bell has all the call records for Guelph.
> 
> Book em Dano!


Reminds me of Donald Segrett during the 1972 Nixon reelection campaign.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> Reminds me of Donald Segrett during the 1972 Nixon reelection campaign.


If it smells like chit, it's probably chit.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Shark Attack!


----------



## Macfury

Statement by Conservative Member of Parliament Dean Del Mastro on harassing and misleading phone calls during the 2011 federal campaign

"The Conservative Party is calling on anyone with any information about harassing calls or calls giving inaccurate poll information to come clean immediately and hand it over to Elections Canada. 

My own campaign in Peterborough was the victim of dirty tricks phone calls, with Conservative supporters harassed by late night abusive calls, and our Party condemns these acts.

We are providing this information to Elections Canada.

We call on Elections Canada to investigate and get to the bottom of this as quickly as possible so the truth is known."

– 30 –


----------



## groovetube

I'm seem to recall similar types of statements made by liberals during the sponsorship scandal.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I'm seem to recall similar types of statements made by liberals during the sponsorship scandal.


Post them here so we can compare!


----------



## groovetube

It seems someone, was asleep during the gomery thing.


----------



## Macfury

It seems you are not able to produce any proof that such statements were issued. They may exist, but I won't do the work for you.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury, given the very well known speech by Paul Martin, and what he said that is very similar to this idea of a party caught up in a brewing scandal declaring their wishes to get to the bottom of things and find who is responsible, it's hard to take any of your comments with any seriousness.

Even more puzzling, given your consistent demands for better, and more meaningful debate.


----------



## Macfury

Thank you for your meaningful contribution.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Statement by Conservative Member of Parliament Dean Del Mastro on harassing and misleading phone calls during the 2011 federal campaign
> 
> "The Conservative Party is calling on anyone with any information about harassing calls or calls giving inaccurate poll information to come clean immediately and hand it over to Elections Canada.
> 
> My own campaign in Peterborough was the victim of dirty tricks phone calls, with Conservative supporters harassed by late night abusive calls, and our Party condemns these acts.
> 
> We are providing this information to Elections Canada.
> 
> We call on Elections Canada to investigate and get to the bottom of this as quickly as possible so the truth is known."
> 
> – 30 –


Where's Harper on this? Should he not be calling for further investigations from the RCMP or launching a public inquiry?

Reports are talking about complaints in up to 27 ridings now, maybe 28 with Del Mastro's riding (which incidentally wasn't a close race and doesn't fit the pattern of the other complaints and which he won by a 15,000 vote margin). But by all means, if anyone from *any party* was involved in this type of disgusting anti-democratic behaviour it should be thoroughly investigated.

The kind of necessary voters list information to make these kind of targeted calls is not available to lower echelon help in the campaigns according to reports of those involved in Parliamentary campaigns. Surely in 27 ridings there must be a wealth of people who could fill in the stories about who had access to what info and who could possibly be involved.

Something tells me though that Conservative leaders will not be in favour of expanding investigations -- call it a hunch. I guess we'll see Monday when the House is back.


----------



## groovetube

I suspect he's hiding until they figure out how best to deal with this.

Somehow, this isn't something that can easily be passed off to simple staffers.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Thank you for your meaningful contribution.


If you were absent during the largely public spectacle of the gomery thing, you can simply google Paul Martin's statement to Canadians. Very public and well known.

It'll take you 5 seconds. There's a paragraph the ehcos similar statements as the one you posted, just as I said.

I believe -your- words are 'do some damned research!'.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> If you were absent during the largely public spectacle of the gomery thing, you can simply google Paul Martin's statement to Canadians. Very public and well known..


Google it and show us exactly what you mean. Don't be such a lazy-ass.


----------



## groovetube

"Do some damned research!"

I believe those are your, exact words to me and others on many occasions.

Ah the usual macfury exploits, Sorry friend, not interested in your games tonight. Gotta go.


----------



## Dr.G.

Where is JNN these days??? CNN is still online.


----------



## groovetube

yes. It seems links are truly desired and screamed for.

JNN! You are being summoned! Do your job with extra gusto!


----------



## chimo

Paul Martin Speech

CBC News Indepth: Federal sponsorship scandal


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

chimo said:


> Paul Martin Speech
> 
> CBC News Indepth: Federal sponsorship scandal


Interesting, a long time since I've heard or read those words. Not be naive about it, Martin was trying to take a stance of integrity in vain hope that it would divert the rightful criticism the Liberal government was taking over actions of a few within the party.

I'm not sure how much of that he actually believed or how much was theatre.

I took his words and edited them somewhat to create a speech that Harper would have to give to come even close to what Martin was announcing. I took out the parts that related to Martin's possibly losing government to a confidence vote. Strictly as a thought exercise, I wonder if Harper could ever deliver something like that:

***********************************
_Good evening. 

I want to talk to you directly tonight – about the problems in the 2011 general election. 

Let me speak plainly: what happened with these attempts at voter suppression occurred on the watch of a Conservative government. Those who were in power are to be held responsible. And that includes me. 

I was the Prime Minister. Knowing what I've learned this past month, I am sorry that we weren’t more vigilant - that I wasn't more vigilant. Democracy was attacked by those who would attempt to suppress the vote. That’s unacceptable. And that is why I apologize to the Canadian people. 

But taking responsibility is about more than words. I want to tell you what I’ll do as Prime Minister to deal with this scandal – to make sure it does not happen again, to make sure that those who violated the public trust will be identified and will pay the consequences. 

I'll act immediately by ordering a fully independent commission of inquiry, under M_. Justice ________. Its mandate is to get to the bottom of what happened, and to do it in full view of Canadians. It will report before the end of the year. 

I'll put in strict new rules on electoral spending and on the use by candidates of automated phone services. 

My government will respect whistleblower legislation to ensure that when public servants and others come forward with evidence of wrongdoing, they are protected, not punished. 

I'll order my government to bring charges against people and parties that may be involved. 

I'm committed to acting on the recommendations of Judge _____________ when he/she brings forth his/her final report. And I myself will testify before his/her commission, answering any and all questions. 

Finally, I'll order that the Conservative party bring in auditors to conduct a forensic examination of its books - and call in the RCMP to investigate what took place during that period. 

As Prime Minister, I will never hesitate to describe what happened in those ridings for what is was: an unjustifiable mess. It’s up to me to clean it up. That’s my job. I am cleaning it up. And I am willing to be judged on my record of action.

As people focus their attention on the commission’s hearings, let’s remember that the inquiry is being held in front of a judge for good reason. 

There is conflicting testimony; only the judge is in a position to determine the truth. Only he can cut through the partisan politics. Only he can tell us what happened and who was responsible. 

I am prepared to face Canadians and have them judge my response to this serious test of leadership. I will be politically accountable. But I believe that before there is an election, you are entitled to answers – to the answers that Judge _________ is working toward. I believe that Canadians deserve a full and frank accounting of all the facts. Fairness and due process require nothing less. 

For that reason, I commit to you tonight that I will call a general election within 30 days of the publication of the commission’s final report and recommendations. Let Judge ________ do his/her work. Let the facts come out. And then the people of Canada will have their say. 

In closing, let me say this: there are people who think I was wrong to call this inquiry, wrong to expose my government to the political cost of the scrutiny that has ensued. They warn we will pay a price in the next election. And perhaps we will. 

But I trust your judgment. And I will not dishonour this office by trying to conceal or diminish such offensive wrongdoing. I have too much respect for this place. 

When I was young, I learned that those who serve in public office have a duty to protect the integrity of government. 

My pledge to you tonight is that I will live up to that ideal. I went into public life because I believe in the good that government can do. And I will do my all as Prime Minister to make sure that your government is worthy of your respect. 

The final judgment on whether I have done that will be yours. 

Thank you. And good night._


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Where is JNN these days??? CNN is still online.


Perhaps Jimbo is putting his skills where they belong...telecom consulting for the Conservatives. LOL


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> Perhaps Jimbo is putting his skills where they belong...telecom consulting for the Conservatives. LOL


Just traveling a bit. I work on the data/internet side of telecom but have a voice background and know quite a bit about dialing technology. Call records exist that will validate the calling activity. They were using predictive dialers to distribute the messages. They obviously had lists. 

Political "telemarketing" at its finest.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Perhaps Jimbo is putting his skills where they belong...telecom consulting for the Conservatives. LOL





jimbotelecom said:


> Just traveling a bit. I work on the data/internet side of telecom but have a voice background and know quite a bit about dialing technology. Call records exist that will validate the calling activity. They were using predictive dialers to distribute the messages. They obviously had lists.
> 
> Political "telemarketing" at its finest.


Well, I am going to take this "robocall story" and wait for the JNN facts to reveal what actually took place. As with the New York Times, JNN provides "all the news that is fit to print". We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Interesting, a long time since I've heard or read those words. Not be naive about it, Martin was trying to take a stance of integrity in vain hope that it would divert the rightful criticism the Liberal government was taking over actions of a few within the party.
> 
> I'm not sure how much of that he actually believed or how much was theatre.
> 
> I took his words and edited them somewhat to create a speech that Harper would have to give to come even close to what Martin was announcing. I took out the parts that related to Martin's possibly losing government to a confidence vote. Strictly as a thought exercise, I wonder if Harper could ever deliver something like that:
> 
> ***********************************
> _Good evening.
> 
> I want to talk to you directly tonight – about the problems in the 2011 general election.
> 
> Let me speak plainly: what happened with these attempts at voter suppression occurred on the watch of a Conservative government. Those who were in power are to be held responsible. And that includes me.
> 
> I was the Prime Minister. Knowing what I've learned this past month, I am sorry that we weren’t more vigilant - that I wasn't more vigilant. Democracy was attacked by those who would attempt to suppress the vote. That’s unacceptable. And that is why I apologize to the Canadian people.
> 
> But taking responsibility is about more than words. I want to tell you what I’ll do as Prime Minister to deal with this scandal – to make sure it does not happen again, to make sure that those who violated the public trust will be identified and will pay the consequences.
> 
> I'll act immediately by ordering a fully independent commission of inquiry, under M_. Justice ________. Its mandate is to get to the bottom of what happened, and to do it in full view of Canadians. It will report before the end of the year.
> 
> I'll put in strict new rules on electoral spending and on the use by candidates of automated phone services.
> 
> My government will respect whistleblower legislation to ensure that when public servants and others come forward with evidence of wrongdoing, they are protected, not punished.
> 
> I'll order my government to bring charges against people and parties that may be involved.
> 
> I'm committed to acting on the recommendations of Judge _____________ when he/she brings forth his/her final report. And I myself will testify before his/her commission, answering any and all questions.
> 
> Finally, I'll order that the Conservative party bring in auditors to conduct a forensic examination of its books - and call in the RCMP to investigate what took place during that period.
> 
> As Prime Minister, I will never hesitate to describe what happened in those ridings for what is was: an unjustifiable mess. It’s up to me to clean it up. That’s my job. I am cleaning it up. And I am willing to be judged on my record of action.
> 
> As people focus their attention on the commission’s hearings, let’s remember that the inquiry is being held in front of a judge for good reason.
> 
> There is conflicting testimony; only the judge is in a position to determine the truth. Only he can cut through the partisan politics. Only he can tell us what happened and who was responsible.
> 
> I am prepared to face Canadians and have them judge my response to this serious test of leadership. I will be politically accountable. But I believe that before there is an election, you are entitled to answers – to the answers that Judge _________ is working toward. I believe that Canadians deserve a full and frank accounting of all the facts. Fairness and due process require nothing less.
> 
> For that reason, I commit to you tonight that I will call a general election within 30 days of the publication of the commission’s final report and recommendations. Let Judge ________ do his/her work. Let the facts come out. And then the people of Canada will have their say.
> 
> In closing, let me say this: there are people who think I was wrong to call this inquiry, wrong to expose my government to the political cost of the scrutiny that has ensued. They warn we will pay a price in the next election. And perhaps we will.
> 
> But I trust your judgment. And I will not dishonour this office by trying to conceal or diminish such offensive wrongdoing. I have too much respect for this place.
> 
> When I was young, I learned that those who serve in public office have a duty to protect the integrity of government.
> 
> My pledge to you tonight is that I will live up to that ideal. I went into public life because I believe in the good that government can do. And I will do my all as Prime Minister to make sure that your government is worthy of your respect.
> 
> The final judgment on whether I have done that will be yours.
> 
> Thank you. And good night._


Exactly. This speech is a well known one from Martin, and I would have thought those most obsessed with the adscam thing would well remember it.

But certainly, just about any government involved in a brewing scandal will almost always try to appear as though they are right on it looking for those responsible and bringing them to justice.

It's interesting to watch the debate on this one, as we begin to realize, there is no way this could possibly be, just a few over zealous staffers. Certainly not the poor23 year old who just fell on his sword.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Guilty by association. Harper and Flaherty vogueing with Sona. And a thumbs up to you too Jimmy!

Book 'em Dano!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Sona - Levant and Coulter!*

Ezra, Sona, and Coulter!

Book em all Dano!


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Ezra, Sona, and Coulter!
> 
> Book em all Dano!


"The axis of evil"??????????


----------



## mrjimmy

jimbotelecom said:


> Guilty by association. Harper and Flaherty vogueing with Sona. And a thumbs up to you too Jimmy!
> 
> Book 'em Dano!


Ah the ol' smoking gun...


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Ah the ol' smoking gun...


Don't shoot until you see the reds of their eyes. 

(The famous order "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes" was popularized in stories about the battle of Bunker Hill.)


----------



## chimo

Dr.G. said:


> "The axis of evil"??????????


:lmao::clap:


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

jimbotelecom said:


> Just traveling a bit. I work on the data/internet side of telecom but have a voice background and know quite a bit about dialing technology. Call records exist that will validate the calling activity. They were using predictive dialers to distribute the messages. They obviously had lists.
> 
> Political "telemarketing" at its finest.


That's interesting. In the 2008 election, myself and many others complained to Elections Canada about a spoofed caller ID robocall that came to our riding the night before Election Day. The call urged voters to vote for an NDP candidate who has resigned, but whose name was still on the ballot because he resigned past the deadline. The race was a tight one with Conservative Gary Lunn squeaking out a narrow win. The defunct candidacy received some 3600 votes the next day and there is some evidence that a few people who don't follow the news voted for that candidate. Whether this changed the election result is hard to say. But it was an obvious dirty trick and a disgusting attempt to misdirect voters.

Subsequently after sending an email to Elections Canada along with an .mp3 of the message and the time and caller ID info I received, an Elections Canada investigator called me and basically admitted they had no idea how to find out who spoofed the call, or what robo-calling company would have hosted the calls. I was amazed to hear that, thinking that there must be traces or records of this somehow. And now with the Elections Canada investigations from the 2011 Election we find out they did indeed have some resources to do this.

I sent all my info to Stephen Maher, the PostMedia reporter who broke this story and he replied wanting to know as much as I could tell him. I informed him that others have been asking why Elections Canada could find info in the recent cases but not in others from 2008.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Well, I am going to take this "robocall story" and wait for the JNN facts to reveal what actually took place. As with the New York Times, JNN provides "all the news that is fit to print". We shall see.


Alas, on EhMac JNN provides "all the news that fits."


----------



## BigDL

Go way, eh eh! Nudge nudge, wink, wink.

Say no more, say no more.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Andrew Coyne: All too plausible to think the Conservatives are involved in the robocall scandal | Full Comment | National Post


I missed this bit through the broohaha of the demand to prove any politician ever expressed wanting to find whomever is responsible for a scandal.. an interesting read.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

groovetube said:


> I missed this bit through the broohaha of the demand to prove any politician ever expressed wanting to find whomever is responsible for a scandal.. an interesting read.


The brouhaha and the endless responses to brouhaha are boring. Why not just ignore it and focus on the issues?


----------



## Macfury

The end result of the investigation will be the identification of some mid-level type who takes responsibility for pursuing the policy on his/her own. It won't be anything like the sponsorship scandal in which the trail led directly to the PM's office. Don't get me wrong, it must be investigated, but those slavering for for a by-election or for major heads to roll will be disappointed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Alas, on EhMac JNN provides "all the news that fits."


Yes, but JNN tells the truth .............. "and the truth shall set you free." Paix, mon ami.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> The end result of the investigation will be the identification of some mid-level type who takes responsibility for pursuing the policy on his/her own. It won't be anything like the sponsorship scandal in which the trail led directly to the PM's office. Don't get me wrong, it must be investigated, but those slavering for for a by-election or for major heads to roll will be disappointed.


How would you know that short of an investigation?

I'm not saying that this necessarily does lead to the PMO, but then again, nobody thought a little dirty trick break-in at the Watergate Hotel led to the Oval Office either.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> How would you know that short of an investigation?
> 
> I'm not saying that this necessarily does lead to the PMO, but then again, nobody thought a little dirty trick break-in at the Watergate Hotel led to the Oval Office either.


Nobody thought Dick Nixon would have recorded himself in incriminating fashion. PM Harper, if he was involved on any level, would not have instructed anyone to do so directly, or through a traceable format. This is, of course, my prediction only.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The brouhaha and the endless responses to brouhaha are boring. Why not just ignore it and focus on the issues?


after a couple I did. Unfortunately I actually took the desire for meaningful discussion at face value.

Anyway, back to the purpose of my post, I thought it was pretty bang on pointing how this government thinks it's had to fight twice as hard to get in power, and as the article put it... " it is therefore obliged, if not entitled, to take a few shortcuts to even the odds.".


----------



## screature

I have remained quiet on the robocall subject because until we know more it is pure conjecture on all fronts.

But being that there is all kind of conjecture being expressed right down to simply that someone knows someone else or had their picture taken with them, I will add my 2 cents to the conjecture. BTW... photo ops with the PM occur every day, it is extremely common place, with people who are not involved with politics in anyway, so if one of these people goes out and commits a crime does this then mean that the PM is an accomplice to that crime. Guilt by association is not and should not be an argument to be lauded but in fact should be condemned as a form of proof as to someones guilt or innocence.



> An association fallacy is an inductive informal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. The two types are sometimes referred to as guilt by association and honor by association. Association fallacies are a special case of red herring, and can be based on an appeal to emotion.



Wikipedia

It would not surprise me in the least that this plot was hatched at the low to mid-level party organization without any knowledge of higher ups in the party, most likely by those who are under 40 years of age and most likely those under 30. Why do I say this? Because people older than this have lived through Ad Scam, Watergate, etc and been old enough to understand what was going. They would have the political savvy to know that such a scheme would eventually be found out and that engaging in such a plot would only result in scandal and shame, thereby harming their cause more than it could ever help it.

I have seen such misguided over zealotry among the young in many aspects over the years... the most recent one that comes to mind being Kelley Block's assistant whose young and foolish "enthusiasm" (ego) got the best of him, compromised the democratic process, embarrassed his boss and significantly damaged his own career. It happens all the time among young party faithful.

That being said it may not be the case in this instance and the CPC could have been so desperate for a majority that even higher levels were involved, but I would be surprised. If they are proven to be involved then as the PM has indicated the full force of the law should fall down on them.

Time will tell...


----------



## groovetube

Well, I don't think anyone is suggesting the 'photo ops' are proof of something, just that the optics aren't particularly good.

As already mentioned, something this serious, it's rather hard to believe a bunch of 'enthusiastic kids' hatched this one.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Well, I don't think anyone is suggesting the 'photo ops' are proof of something, just that the optics aren't particularly good.*
> 
> As already mentioned, something this serious, *it's rather hard to believ*e a bunch of 'enthusiastic kids' hatched this one.


Plenty have with all kinds of emoticons to back up their belief

So you and other's have said... I am simply stating my reasons for believing otherwise... You have had your say I'm just having mine.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> As already mentioned, something this serious, it's rather hard to believe a bunch of 'enthusiastic kids' hatched this one.


Hos does "serious" not equate with "young?" Once they had the target phone numbers, any fool could have started the robo-call train. It's not as if this is some complex plot.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Hos does "serious" not equate with "young?" Once they had the target phone numbers, any fool could have started the robo-call train. It's not as if this is some complex plot.


IYou're getting caught up in small details. Of course a young person(s) can be serious, and commit serious crimes. But I think in context here, it's had to believe a handful of overly enthusiastic young conservatives would have gone ahead on this one without any connections with the upper end in the party.

It seems con supporters are really hanging on to, well it's possible!!!!!!

Sure, it is...

Just like it was possible Paul Martin etc., didn't know about the adscam details.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Well, I don't think anyone is suggesting the 'photo ops' are proof of something, just that the optics aren't particularly good.
> 
> As already mentioned, something this serious, it's rather hard to believe a bunch of 'enthusiastic kids' hatched this one.


No this definitely has a degree of treachery that I generally associate with the over 50 crowd. 

To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie. It takes at least thirty years to become that much of a treacherous bastard. It requires an environment where your natural treachery can grow and develop and take meaningful shape within today's complex political arena.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> No this definitely has a degree of treachery that I generally associate with the over 50 crowd.
> 
> To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie. It takes at least thirty years to become that much of a treacherous bastard. It requires an environment where your natural treachery can grow and develop and take meaningful shape within today's complex political arena.


They're still playing the "it's the political staffer's fault game", thinking people will continue to buy it.

Eventually, it gets old, particularly after your party has already been found guilty of breaking election rules.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> No this definitely has a degree of* treachery* that I generally associate with the over 50 crowd.
> 
> To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie. It takes at least thirty years to become that much of a treacherous bastard. It requires an environment where your natural treachery can grow and develop and take meaningful shape within today's complex political arena.


Treachery requires complexity of thought and implementation... this scheme possesses none of either. Arlo Guthrie is the best source you have? Don't get me wrong, he had one really funny album... but as some sort of political/philosophical/moral/ethical authority/expert... I'm less than convinced.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> They're still playing the "it's the political staffer's fault game", thinking people will continue to buy it.
> 
> Eventually, it gets old, particularly after *your party has already been found guilty of breaking election rules.*


Yes and the in/out scheme possessed a complex enough understanding/misunderstanding of election law to believe that the scheme had a legal leg to stand on... this one clearly does not and thus does not indicate a mature understanding/intellect IMO. It is simply *my* opinion, derived on my own, not told by anyone else to believe this, no Talking Points involved, just what I think and believe...

Just to try and avoid some of the predictable snide comments.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Yes and the in/out scheme possessed a complex enough understanding/misunderstanding of election law to believe that the scheme had a legal leg to stand on... *this one clearly does not* and thus *does not indicate a mature understanding/intellect IMO. It is simply my opinion, derived on my own, not told by anyone else to believe this, no Talking Points involved, just what I think and believe...*
> 
> Just to try and avoid some of the predictable snide comments.


It seems you doth protesteth a little too much...


----------



## screature

I guess my attempts were in vain... the snide remarks started nonetheless.... so it goes.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I guess my attempts were in vain... the snide remarks started nonetheless.... so it goes.


well jeez screature, you come in and announce your opinion as clearly it's this way, and insinuate that those who have differing opinions as those who can't form their own opinions without talking points, or being told what to believe. And then complain about snide remarks.

Not exactly a setup for a civil response.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well jeez screature, you come in and announce your opinion as clearly it's this way, and insinuate that those who have differing opinions as those who can't form their own opinions without talking points, or being told what to believe. And then complain about snide remarks.
> 
> Not exactly a setup for a civil response.


You clearly did not understand what I said... I implied no such thing... to the contrary I stated what I did because it has been claimed that *my* opinions are based on such things... If that is not what I meant (as you will undoubtedly question my intentions) why would I have stated:



> Just to try and avoid some of the predictable snide comments.


I have not bothered with this thread for quite some time and then when I do...

Well let's just say I wonder why I even bother at all....


----------



## groovetube

woo I think it's time for a Sunday afternoon drinky!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> woo I think it's time for a Sunday afternoon drinky!


More snide comments gt??? You're a real class act...

Carry on... I expect no better.


----------



## groovetube

Holy crap I'm just having a sunday afternoon cokktail. Just backing away... letting the dust settle before it gets out hand again...

I know it's probably not classy to drink on a sunday afternoon, so I apologize profusely!


----------



## BigDL

There's the rub, the impetuous young rouges versus the well connected deeply ingrained conspiracy, either way it is the RackNine Plot (or is that plop.)

No matter how you want to spin it the RackNine Plot is all on the Cons, young rogues to the well heeled it is all Cons all the time.

RackNine's patronage all Cons all the time.

Misrepresented Election's Canada Robo Calling Guelph area traced to RackNine. Who were called with misinformation? It has been identified as Liberal voters. There is recorded evidence of the misinformation.

This story started with Postmedia News reporting 18 incidents. Now CBC News is listing 34 incidents reaching from Nova Scotia to Alberta. 

All 34 ridings listed are either Liberal or NDP supporters or both Liberal and NDP. Without a single riding with Cons complaining about misinformation Robo Calls dirty tricks. 

Now for sure the Greens don't have the resources to engage RackNine. So who does that leave? Well the only Parties left are the Cons and Bloc. I therefore should pick the Cons. I should think any fair minded citizen would.

CBC Story with list of 34 displayed below



CBCNews said:


> Ridings the Liberals and NDP say received reports of false or misleading calls during the last election:
> 
> LIBERALS:
> 
> 1. Sydney-Victoria (NS)
> 
> 2. Egmont (PE)
> 
> 3. Eglinton-Lawrence (ON)
> 
> 4. Etobicoke Centre (ON)
> 
> 5. Guelph (ON)
> 
> 6. Cambridge (ON)
> 
> 7. Hamilton East-Stoney Creek (ON)
> 
> 8. Haldimand-Norfolk (ON)
> 
> 9. Kitchener-Conestoga (ON)
> 
> 10. Kitchener-Waterloo (ON)
> 
> 11. London North Centre (ON)
> 
> 12. London West (ON)
> 
> 13. Mississauga East-Cooksville (ON)
> 
> 14. Niagara Falls (ON)
> 
> 15. Oakville (ON)
> 
> 16. Ottawa-Orleans (ON)
> 
> 17. Ottawa West-Nepean (ON)
> 
> 18. Parkdale - High Park (ON)
> 
> 19. Perth - Wellington (ON)
> 
> 20. Simcoe-Grey (ON)
> 
> 21. St. Catharines (ON)
> 
> 22. St. Paul's (ON)
> 
> 23. Sudbury (ON)
> 
> 24. Wellington - Halton Hills (ON)
> 
> 25. Willowdale (ON)
> 
> 26. Saint Boniface (MB)
> 
> 27. Winnipeg South Centre (MB)
> 
> NDP:
> 
> 28. Davenport (ON)
> 
> 29. Edmonton East (AB)
> 
> 30. Elmwood-Transcona (MB)
> 
> 31. Ottawa Centre (ON)
> 
> Parkdale-High Park (also on Liberal list)
> 
> 32. South Shore-St. Margaret's (NS)
> 
> Sudbury (also on Liberal list)
> 
> 33. Thunder Bay-Superior North (ON)
> 
> 34. Windsor-Tecumseh (ON)


Were the Cons clever enough to route this through their Republican Party associates, to escape Elections Canada, thereby covering their tracks? Did the CONS falsely believe (like the use of proroguing) that the publics eyes would likely glaze over and simply not worry their little minds over such mundane matters as the minutia of how elections should be carried out?

If matters were as convoluted as routing southward we may never know definitively, however, if the the underestimation of Canadians interests were counted on, then this matter could get very interesting. 

Finding out how far up the chain of command and who's falling who's swords could be interesting and somewhat entertaining.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Holy crap I*'m just having a sunday afternoon cokktail*. Just backing away... letting the dust settle before it gets out hand again...
> 
> I know it's probably not classy to drink on a sunday afternoon, so I apologize profusely!


Ok then fine... I thought otherwise so apology accepted and please accept mine.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Were the Cons clever enough to route this *through their Republican Party associates*, to escape Elections Canada, thereby covering their tracks? Did the CONS falsely believe (like the use of proroguing) that the publics eyes would likely glaze over and simply not worry their little minds over such mundane matters as the minutia of how elections should be carried out?


Speaking of little minds, what an utterly stupid assertion to make.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think it's any secret about how the cons and the republicans, not to mention US companies all frothing at the mouth the pipe the tar sands oil into the US.


----------



## SINC

While there are some ideals that may be similar between Conservatives and Republicans, to state outright they are 'associated' in any way between the two countries (and parties) is absolutely absurd, ie: stupid.


----------



## groovetube

I think you're getting awfully defensive about the phrase pretty quickly. It isn't inconceivable by any means. In fact, I would be very surprised if there wasn't any communication between the two.


----------



## SINC

Boy, that's quite a stretch.


----------



## groovetube

That our government, who's main objective seems to be to export the tar sands oil, and the republicans who are openly very interested in this too, communicate closely?

C'mon, this is no stretch at all. It's common sense.


----------



## SINC

I'm not disputing communication or sharing of ideas. I am pointing out that to insinuate they have a formalized 'association' or direct political link between the two parties over two countries is stupid. Do their individual constitutions formalize a relationship between them? Of course not.


----------



## groovetube

Here's something interesting. A pile of racknine invoices and cheques. Apparently some racknine invoices were paid in US funds, odd, given it's a Canadian company, working on a Canadian election.

Payments to RackNine from local Conservative Campaigns


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Here's something interesting. A pile of racknine invoices and cheques. Apparently some racknine invoices were paid in US funds, odd, given it's a Canadian company, working on a Canadian election.
> 
> Payments to RackNine from local Conservative Campaigns


Well beside a cheque being written for a shocking $117.75 *to* the CPC Fund I can't see anything remotely indicting any payment in any shape or form....

Specifically the message states... "we requested to get a GOTV message *recorded by Stephen*" ... so in whose possible imagination could this be a "smoking gun" to the robocall scheme.


----------



## groovetube

I guess you missed the ones in US funds.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I think you're getting awfully defensive about the phrase pretty quickly. It isn't inconceivable by any means. In fact, I would be very surprised if there wasn't any communication between the two.


It's just the usual diversionary tactics to derail the main point, that of the Cons and only the Cons are involved with RackNine. RackNine and only RackNine is involved with the RackNine Plot, therefore only the Cons are involved with the RackNine Plot.

If you can't refute the contention about Cons involvement then try and divert everyone's attention away from the Con's 

"Associated |əˈsōsēˌātid; - sh ē-|
adjective
(of a person or thing) connected with something else : two associated events."

Associated as in birds of a feather flock together. Talk together.

The people/organization that works for the Republican Party, I speculated an arrangement with those contractors to do some dirty tricks in this country, I wouldn't know of any such arrangements but I speculated that if such an arrangement were made it would be difficult for Elections Canada to compel any foreign agent to comply with a Canadian agency.

Petty! Small minds, are occupied by small concepts, I guess. :yawn:


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> It's just the usual diversionary tactics to derail the main point, that of the Cons and only the Cons are involved with RackNine. RackNine and only RackNine is involved with the RackNine Plot, therefore only the Cons are involved with the RackNine Plot.
> 
> If you can't refute the contention about Cons involvement then try and divert everyone's attention away from the Con's
> 
> "Associated |əˈsōsēˌātid; - sh ē-|
> adjective
> (of a person or thing) connected with something else : two associated events."
> 
> Associated as in birds of a feather flock together. Talk together.
> 
> The people/organization that works for the Republican Party, I speculated an arrangement with those contractors to do some dirty tricks in this country, I wouldn't know of any such arrangements but I speculated that if such an arrangement were made it would be difficult for Elections Canada to compel any foreign agent to comply with a Canadian agency.
> 
> Petty! Small minds, are occupied by small concepts, I guess. :yawn:


It couldn't be!


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Small minds, are occupied by small concepts, I guess. :yawn:


Oh, pardon me, I forgot. Union mentality at its finest.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I guess you missed the ones in US funds.


The link wasn't working properly it seems to be now, so are you talking about the one re:Leon Benoit referring to his needing to be re-reimbursed US funds?

Seems odd to me as the CDN was stronger against the US or near parity at the time... Who knows why at any rate the money was going to an MP not some US company.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> It's just the usual diversionary tactics to derail the main point, that of the *Cons* and only the *Cons* are involved with RackNine. RackNine and only RackNine is involved with the RackNine Plot, therefore only the* Cons* are involved with the RackNine Plot.
> 
> If you can't refute the contention about *Cons* involvement then try and divert everyone's attention away from the *Con's*
> 
> "Associated |əˈsōsēˌātid; - sh ē-|
> adjective
> (of a person or thing) connected with something else : two associated events."
> 
> *Associated as in birds of a feather flock together. Talk together*.
> 
> The people/organization that works for the Republican Party, I speculated an arrangement with those contractors to do some dirty tricks in this country, I wouldn't know of any such arrangements but I speculated that if such an arrangement were made it would be difficult for Elections Canada to compel any foreign agent to comply with a Canadian agency.
> 
> Petty! Small minds, are occupied by small concepts, I guess. :yawn:


You are so right Big DL just like all blacks have rhythm, all Chinese have above average IQ's and all white men can't jump...Birds of feather don't you know, they are all created equal and are fundamentally the same...

You should get a Nobel prize for that observation.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You are so right Big DL just like all blacks have rhythm, all Chinese have above average IQ's and all white men can't jump...Birds of feather don't you know, they are all created equal and are fundamentally the same...
> 
> You should get a Nobel prize for that observation.


Can't say anything regarding the involvement of the Cons and only the Cons in this mess call the RackNine Plot?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

I think all this talk of blame is premature since we know very little about the evidence.

It's easy to assume that Conservatives at higher levels could be involved, because of the In and Out scheme to beat the campaign spending limits (which the Conservative party was fined for) and the Cotler scheme using spoofed robo calls to confuse voters. But we know next to nothing at this point. I think it's also premature to categorically announce that only low level pawns were behind this.

Because of this I think Conservatives at higher levels should be very eager to clear the name of their party by pushing for full and transparent public investigations of this affair. They should offer to investigate every one of the workers in all of the ridings affected and the other parties should also step up. Put people under oath and if there is any suspicion or bit of evidence, use that to pressure them to speak about what they may know. If they decide to stonewall, avoid or downplay this, it will lead many to believe that the Conservative leaders either know that there was significant involvement at higher levels, or fear that there might well be such involvement.

Andrew Coyne's article, linked earlier in this thread, explains why many are quick to suspect higher party officials, even up to the PMO. Those who have watched the Cons under Harper have seen an organization that appears to take a quite extreme "win at all costs" approach to politics. It's fair comment to note that tendency and that in general it seems to be an atmosphere that is created at the top. Not to say other politicians are angels, -- obviously playing hardball is nothing new or even rare, -- just to note that the Cons under Harper seem to play it frequently and with relish.

Edit: Link to Andrew Coyne Article -- Andrew Coyne: All too plausible to think the Conservatives are involved in the robocall scandal | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I think all this talk of blame is premature since we know very little about the evidence.
> 
> It's easy to assume that Conservatives at higher levels could be involved, because of the In and Out scheme to beat the campaign spending limits (which the Conservative party was fined for) and the Cotler scheme using spoofed robo calls to confuse voters. But we know next to nothing at this point. I think it's also premature to categorically announce that only low level pawns were behind this.
> 
> Because of this I think Conservatives at higher levels should be very eager to clear the name of their party by pushing for full and transparent public investigations of this affair. They should offer to investigate every one of the workers in all of the ridings affected and the other parties should also step up. Put people under oath and if there is any suspicion or bit of evidence, use that to pressure them to speak about what they may know. If they decide to stonewall, avoid or downplay this, it will lead many to believe that the Conservative leaders either know that there was significant involvement at higher levels, or fear that there might well be such involvement.
> 
> Andrew Coyne's article, linked earlier in this thread, explains why many are quick to suspect higher party officials, even up to the PMO. Those who have watched the Cons under Harper have seen an organization that appears to take a quite extreme "win at all costs" approach to politics. It's fair comment to note that tendency and that in general it seems to be an atmosphere that is created at the top. Not to say other politicians are angels, -- obviously playing hardball is nothing new or even rare, -- just to note that the Cons under Harper seem to play it frequently and with relish.


Absolutely we're all just speculating. Though, for some of the reasons you stated, it's easy to suspect the top down involvement.

This certainly was the case when the adscam thing was happening, I recall all the calls to jail the Liberals.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

groovetube said:


> Absolutely we're all just speculating. Though, for some of the reasons you stated, it's easy to suspect the top down involvement.
> 
> This certainly was the case when the adscam thing was happening, I recall all the calls to jail the Liberals.


I remember it well. I for one had no problem believing Chretien could have been up to his neck in stuff like that. I felt that Martin was probably just a fall guy, at worst wilfully ignoring his own suspicions of what was going on around him.

I also remember many going around here and elsewhere screaming about how they absolutely _knew_ Chretien and Martin were both completely guilty. In the end there is no proof against either, so we are left with our suspicions based on our assessment of their characters.

I might think Stephen Harper and others in his party are fully capable of being involved in this, but I'd never say that they are unless it was a proven fact. Even if others in the past said similar things about the Libs during adscam. Just because some on the other side do it, doesn't mean I'd want to.

I think we'll see by Harper's actions in coming days whether he'll bring more suspicion his way or not. Character shows in a crisis, and I think this is some of deepest crap he's had to deal with to date.


----------



## BigDL

+2 I agree with you as well. The only thing known for sure is it's Cons and only Cons to be looked at for the RackNine Plot. 

I haven't any idea if it's young'ins gone rouge or some thing else. 

I commented on it should be interesting if the Elections Canada can go anywhere, or if indeed the police, are called in, to assist with the inquires.

If Elections Canada investigation doesn't provide sufficient cover in Q.P. to say "no comment as the matter is under Elections Canada investigation, and I (the Minister giving the comment) do not want to influence/interfere with Elections Canada investigation." 

If the RackNine Plot has any traction, I predict, late this week or early next week the Government will call in the RCMP to investigate, thereby, allowing for the, "no comment as the matter is under police investigation, and I (the person giving the comment) do not want to influence/interfere with the police's inquires." 

If the above comment can't be made properly during Q.P. with only Elections Canada cover, then the police investigation cover will be essential.


----------



## eMacMan

Given King Harpo's tendency to control all, one tends to believe that at the very least, OGL created an atmosphere that encouraged the Robocall fiasco.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER CONS - Do whatever it takes - even breaking the law!*

For Harper and Tories, there's nowhere to hide

Good to see a con rag like the gazette publishing a thoughtful analysis of Harper and the CONS cornered and wimpering.

Not to mention this one by the same author pointing out the economy and jobs, jobs, jobs,
the CONS are losing focus.

Tory bungling has budget hanging in limbo

Brought to you by JNN - "a source of information the whole family can enjoy - since 2011"


----------



## groovetube

> Conservative apologists are already falling back to a variant on the "wirebrush" gambit, made famous by Liberal PMO communications director Scott Reid at the height of the sponsorship scandal. To say this does not bode well is an understatement.
> 
> Read more: For Harper and Tories, there's nowhere to hide


Seems I'm not the only one to pick up this rather obvious bit...


----------



## groovetube

Robocalls an isolated incident, says Peter MacKay - Ottawa - CBC News

Well we're now seeing the first responses from the government. Nothing to see here, just a 23 year old who was fully responsible for this entire scandal....

Just how stupid, does McKay et all really think we are?

Canada News: Conservative scripts misdirected voters in 2011 election, say call centre staff - thestar.com

boy it should be an interesting week as this starts to unfold and the cons begin damage control.


----------



## BigDL

Does Peter even have a modicum of sense? Possibly?



CBCNews said:


> "It's certainly not something our party condones," MacKay said Sunday of the fraudulent calls to voters. "It's inappropriate behaviour to say the least."
> 
> But he told CBC News in New Glasgow, N.S., that he believes the calls directing people to wrong or non-existent polling places were isolated incidents.


----------



## groovetube

the furious waving of the hands. Nothing to see here, isolated incidents.

It'll be interesting to hear what OGL has to say, probably not much while his goons work overtime to discover (trash/shred) anything before the cops do.


----------



## Macfury

Date: February 27, 2012

For immediate release

Statement by the Prime Minister



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued the following statement today congratulating Christopher Plummer for winning an Oscar at the 84th Academy Awards:
> 
> “On behalf of all Canadians, I would like to congratulate Christopher Plummer, and all others recognized at this year’s Academy Awards in Hollywood. Mr. Plummer was honoured with the top prize for Best Supporting Actor in Beginners.
> 
> “Receiving an Oscar is the film industry’s highest accolade.Canadians have always had a strong presence in the international film industry, and the number of Canadian nominees this year is a true testament to the quality of the talent coming from our country.
> 
> “I applaud Christopher Plummer and all of Canada’s nominees for their exceptional accomplishments and impressive work in the film industry and wish them the best of luck in their future endeavours.”
> 
> - 30 -


----------



## BigDL

She's a goer eh! A goer nudge, nudge, he said knowingly, a goer say no more, say no more.


----------



## arminia

27 ridings is an isolated incident. How many ridings will it take to not be an isolated incident?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS in deep chit - National Post*

Here's the post's take on the call centre staff come forward with their guilt.

Robocalls: Staff knew voters were being directed to wrong voting stations | News | National Post

Keep it up Harper!

Brought to you by JNN - "ah it's been a good February for the CONS! chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - disruption and illegal robocalling in 36 ridings and counting*

Election call complaints reach into 36 ridings, MPs say - Politics - CBC News

Resign Harper - call an election!


Brought to you by JNN - "Ah February 2012 - the beginning of the end - chit!"


----------



## eMacMan

*Harpo bows to Corporate/American masters*



> After taking a leading role in banning use of landmines more than a decade ago, Canada may be watering down support for a similar ban on cluster bombs.
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen reports one of Canada's former arms negotiators saying a weaker version of the proposed agreement appears set to go before Parliament.
> 
> Ed Turcotte, who led the team negotiating the drafting of the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions, told the Citizen the weaker language is the result of a two-year turf battle between the departments of Foreign Affairs and National Defence. Turcotte said he was removed as chief negotiator after U.S. officials complained he was too aggressive. He resigned from his Foreign Affairs post last year over the dispute and has become a public advocate for the treaty.
> "I believed at that time, and continue to believe that Canadian legislation would simply be inadequate, it would be too weak," Turcotte told CBC News. "It would not accurately reflect the commitments we made during negotiations of the convention.
> 
> "In my view, Canada will be isolated among the 111 signatory countries to the convention for our very weak interpretation of the prohibitions that are contained in the treaty. In fact, I think Canada's interpretation would simply be wrong in law as well as in spirit."
> 
> In a letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Turcotte called the cluster-bomb agreement "a remarkable treaty" modelled on the "made-in-Canada" landmines treaty signed in Ottawa in 1997.
> 
> He attacked the opt-out clauses included in the draft ratification legislation that he said would allow Canadian Forces personnel to "aid and abet the use of cluster munitions," the Citizen reported.
> 
> Turcotte said the key lies in the close ties between the Canadian and U.S. militaries. The United States, which has refused to sign the treaty, has one of the world's largest cluster-bomb stockpiles. Russia and China are other major holdouts.


Link:
Canada watering down its support for cluster-bomb treaty, says former arms negotiator | Daily Brew - Yahoo! News


----------



## bryanc

jimbotelecom said:


> Election call complaints reach into 36 ridings...


Ah... just 36 isolated incidents, I'm sure.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

jimbotelecom said:


> Here's the post's take on the call centre staff come forward with their guilt.
> 
> Robocalls: Staff knew voters were being directed to wrong voting stations | News | National Post


This, I think, is the biggest scoop since the original story. We have people on the record blowing the whistle on some of the reported live calling. We need to know a lot more about this company Responsive Marketing Group Inc.

From their web site:


> Whether it's raising money or getting more votes:
> Bottom Line... we get results.


Who are they, do they work for the Conservatives and on what projects? The RCMP and Elections Canada should be already talking to them and interviewing their employees.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - update - disruption and illegal robocalling in 38 ridings and counting*

Election call complaints reach into 38 ridings, MPs say - Politics - CBC News

Add another couple of ridings!

Resign now Harper!

Brought to you by JNN - "Hey Harpo - 2 minutes for lookin so good - chit"


----------



## jimbotelecom

"A disgraceful display by Stephen Harper and/or someone who works for him.

Denying knowledge does not abrogate responsibility or that it happened to begin with.

Utterly disgusting."

A Canadian citizen


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Oh surprise! Look what a little Google research will get you.

Response Marketing has an executive listed on their web site named Stewart Braddick with the title of "Political New Business". I assume that means he's an account exec who administrates accounts under their political marketing division.

According to a Google web search, a Stewart Braddick also appears to have a long history working for Conservatives and conservatives of many stripes. 

Apparently a "long time Conservative strategist" named Stewart Braddick was married to his partner at a same-sex marriage in Toronto attended by one big time Con John Reynolds, which ruffled many extremist feathers at the paleo-con web site Free Dominion.

A Stewart Braddick was mentioned as a Tory strategist working for Toronto lobbying firm Navigator and who worked for big bucks on Belinda Stronach's Conservative leadership campaign in 2004. LINK

In 1997 a Stewart Braddick was identified as a "Progressive Conservative Youth Godfather" who had to resign over some a shady direct mail campaign involving the Gordon Campbell BC Liberals (for those not in BC, these guys are not connected to federal Libs and is a small-c conservative party -- Campbell is friends with Harper who gave him a parachute job as Canadian High Commissioner to the UK after his disastrous resignation). As mentioned in this article Braddick later formed Navigator with another person and went on to work for Ontario Premier Mike Harris. LINK

A Stewart Braddick was brought up in the Ontario Legislature in 1997 as being in the employ of Premier Mike Harris, where so many of the top Harper Conservatives used to work. In fact, in the Hansard pages you can witness John Baird trying to disrupt the questions about Braddick being put to Mike Harris with some antics and being ruled out of order.

So is this Stewart Braddick of Response Marketing - accused of being part of a Conservative dirty tricks campaign -- the same Stewart Braddick who has been a long-time PR expert and strategist for conservative campaigns since his youth?


----------



## Macfury

Are you saying he's guilty of robo-calls because he married a man? Why did you include all of that stuff about same-sex marriage?


----------



## i-rui

I remember hearing about the calls last year on election day. of course there was no evidence to link them to the conservative campaign at the time, but still, in addition to the obvious scandal (which I consider very serious, far more than adscam ever was) i'm also really concerned about the investigative skills of elections canada and the RCMP. 

Why is it that almost a year later, it's 2 journalists (from postmedia no less!) who break this story ahead of elections canada? why did elections canada drop an investigation because a woman dropped her complaint (surly the integrity of our democratic process is worth more than the participation of a single person in an investigation!). why do we hear that when these call centre employees reported the fact that they were telling people to go to non existent election booths the RCMP told them there was nothing they could do??

this whole mess is concerning because it shows a lack of vigilance from the top on down in protecting our democratic process.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> I remember hearing about the calls last year on election day. of course there was no evidence to link them to the conservative campaign at the time, but still, in addition to the obvious scandal (which I consider very serious, far more than adscam ever was) i'm also really concerned about the investigative skills of elections canada and the RCMP.


I'm not sure, but isn't Elections Canada required to investigate only on complaints? Can it initiate investigations on its own?

The RCMP--no surprise there.


----------



## screature

Bob Rae just admitted in the House that it was a member of the Liberal research bureau who perpetrated the Vikileaks attack on Vic Toews. Rae said the member resigned and accepted his resignation.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Are you saying he's guilty of robo-calls because he married a man? Why did you include all of that stuff about same-sex marriage?


C'mon MF, I didn't say anything of the kind. I mentioned it because that was the context of the link in Free Dominion. I didn't say anyone was guilty of anything. I don't even know for sure if this Conservative Braddick is the same guy who is part of Response Marketing. You can do better than that, can't you?

I saw other pages mentioning that this person is out of the closet and has obviously had a public marriage, with other Conservatives attending, which pissed off many social conservatives. I saw another link to the extremist anti-abortion LifeSite that mentions Braddick as being one of the Conservative supporters that their wing saw as an enemy.

There are gay people who support the Conservatives and who are members of the party, although like the gay Republicans in the US, I can't imagine why on earth they would want to support these people.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

i-rui said:


> I remember hearing about the calls last year on election day. of course there was no evidence to link them to the conservative campaign at the time, but still, in addition to the obvious scandal (which I consider very serious, far more than adscam ever was) i'm also really concerned about the investigative skills of elections canada and the RCMP.
> 
> Why is it that almost a year later, it's 2 journalists (from postmedia no less!) who break this story ahead of elections canada? why did elections canada drop an investigation because a woman dropped her complaint (surly the integrity of our democratic process is worth more than the participation of a single person in an investigation!). why do we hear that when these call centre employees reported the fact that they were telling people to go to non existent election booths the RCMP told them there was nothing they could do??
> 
> this whole mess is concerning because it shows a lack of vigilance from the top on down in protecting our democratic process.


Besides only acting on complaints, I don't think they have much of budget for investigation. I also am of the opinion that Elections Canada is a bit out of their depth here, based on my conversation with an Elections Canada investigator. They dropped the Saanich Gulf-Islands robocall investigation that I complained to them about, because they claimed that they couldn't track spoofed phone calls, yet we now learn that it appears they can do some of that. 

I too am concerned about this vigilance and that in-depth investigations will only occur if there is enough public pressure. The press is helping in this regard, but they don't nearly the amount of investigative journalism as was once normal.

I think that a public inquiry must be pursued.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Bob Rae just admitted in the House that it was a member of the Liberal research bureau who perpetrated the Vikileaks attack on Vic Toews. Rae said the member resigned and accepted his resignation.


Good timing for the Cons. They can now claim that this shows the Libs do "dirty tricks" too, not that this questionable but legal tweeting of public information is comparable to illegal voter suppression and electoral fraud and not that the fact that other parties might do questionable things absolves anyone of anything.

Very, very stupid move by the Liberal staffer to do this, even if many people believed Toews had it coming with his insulting pronouncements in the House.

I wonder if the Con who accused the NDP of this in the House is going to apologize.


----------



## jimbotelecom

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good timing for the Cons. They can now claim that this shows the Libs do "dirty tricks" too, not that this questionable but legal tweeting of public information is comparable to illegal voter suppression and electoral fraud and not that the fact that other parties might do questionable things absolves anyone of anything.
> 
> Very, very stupid move by the Liberal staffer to do this, even if many people believed Toews had it coming with his insulting pronouncements in the House.
> 
> I wonder if the Con who accused the NDP of this in the House is going to apologize.


Nothing illegal with what was tweeted, however there is a link to his/her govt. computer, be gone Liberal....not quite the same thing as robocalling, impersonating elections canada personel and influencing 38 ridings and counting!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

A Stewart Braddick, who is listed on the web site of Response Marketing -- accused by their own employee whistle-blowers as intentionally making misleading live calls to voters -- also appears to be involved with a US firm that does the same kind of work for Republicans.

Target Outreach Inc. lists a Stewart Braddick, founding director of Navigator (one his companies involved with conservative campaigns), as their Director of Focused Direct Response, who "focuses on running political operations and winning public affairs campaigns for clients."

Target Outreach advertises their services thus:


> For the past 15 years the principals of Target Outreach have helped Republicans win;
> 
> • We have helped them raise over $75 million in much needed campaign funds;
> • We have sold over a million memberships;
> • We have designed and managed cutting edge Direct Voter Contact programs to help win elections.
> • We employ over 400 full time employees.
> • Our senior management team has years of combined experience in helping Republicans get elected.


EDIT: Oh my, another surprise (it's been a surprising day), Target Outreach and Response Marketing seem to be the same company, they use exactly the same blurb on both web sites. Here's what I found on Response Marketing's site, supposedly a Canadian company:


> RMG works exclusively with right-of-centre campaigns to design and execute integrated programs that use direct mail, the telephone and online tools to build relationships that deliver results for our clients.
> 
> For the past 15 years RMG has helped Canadian conservatives win:
> 
> • We have helped them raise over $ 75 million in much needed campaign funds;
> • We have sold over a million memberships;
> • We have designed and managed cutting edge Direct Voter Contact programs to help win elections.
> • RMG employs over 400 full time employees. Our senior management team has over 200 years of combined experience in helping conservatives get elected.


Something fishy about all this? So as I asked earlier, who is Response Marketing and why were the Conservatives using them to make calls to voters, which Response Marketing whistle-blowers have admitted were intentionally misleading?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

jimbotelecom said:


> Nothing illegal with what was tweeted, however there is a link to his/her govt. computer, be gone Liberal....not quite the same thing as robocalling, impersonating elections canada personel and influencing 38 ridings and counting!


Nothing illegal, but incredibly brainless for a Liberal staffer to get involved with. The Cons will use this like a club to deflect from the robo-calling questions.


----------



## BigDL

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good timing for the Cons. They can now claim that this shows the Libs do "dirty tricks" too, not that this questionable but legal tweeting of public information is comparable to illegal voter suppression and electoral fraud and not that the fact that other parties might do questionable things absolves anyone of anything.
> 
> Very, very stupid move by the Liberal staffer to do this, even if many people believed Toews had it coming with his insulting pronouncements in the House.
> 
> I wonder if the Con who accused the NDP of this in the House is going to apologize.


Yes OGL's pit bu...err... Minion of Foreign Affairs John Baird did stand in the House (speaking of foreign activities to him anyway) and after Bob Rae appoligised to Towes and the Cons and the House and after the NDP demanded an apology, Baird, finally did apologised to the NDP "for the heat of the moment" comments.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

BigDL said:


> Yes OGL's pit bu...err... Minion of Foreign Affairs John Baird did stand in the House (speaking of foreign activities to him anyway) and after Bob Rae appoligised to Towes and the Cons and the House and after the NDP demanded an apology, he finally did apologised to the NDP "for the heat of the moment" comments.


Oh of course it was Baird. That's his thing. I only heard the story on the radio and forgot who the MP was.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Nothing illegal with what was tweeted, however there is a link to his/her govt. computer, be gone Liberal....not quite the same thing as robocalling, impersonating elections canada personel and influencing 38 ridings and counting!


Yep it is a fact. In the court of some of the public's opinion. All of what you say in your post is yet to be proven by anyone. But in the court of public opinion, accusation is all that matters and one is considered guilty until proven innocent.

Thank god there are actual legal courts and judges to determine the veracity of such things...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Yes OGL's pit bu...err... Minion of Foreign Affairs John Baird did stand in the House (speaking of foreign activities to him anyway) and after Bob Rae appoligised to Towes and the Cons and the House and after the NDP demanded an apology, Baird, finally did apologised to the NDP "for the heat of the moment" comments.





GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Oh of course it was Baird. That's his thing. I only heard the story on the radio and forgot who the MP was.


If you listened to the end he apologized completely and unreservedly to the entire NDP Caucus and Party... nice selective editing.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good timing for the Cons. They can now claim that this shows the Libs do "dirty tricks" too, not that this questionable but legal tweeting of public information is comparable to illegal voter suppression and electoral fraud and not that the fact that other parties might do questionable things absolves anyone of anything.
> 
> Very, very stupid move by the Liberal staffer to do this, even if many people believed Toews had it coming with his insulting pronouncements in the House.
> 
> *I wonder if the Con who accused the NDP of this in the House is going to apologize.*


He did unreservedly and equivocally... to the NDP Party and Caucus.


----------



## groovetube

thank god in dear heaven a liberal did something bad. It was getting tense there.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good timing for the Cons. They can now claim that this shows the Libs do "dirty tricks" too, not that this questionable but legal tweeting of public information is comparable to illegal voter suppression and electoral fraud and not that the fact that other parties might do questionable things absolves anyone of anything.
> 
> Very, very stupid move by the Liberal staffer to do this, even if many people believed Toews had it coming with his insulting pronouncements in the House.
> 
> I wonder if the Con who accused the NDP of this in the House is going to apologize.


oh I'm sure staunch con supporters will want everyone to know that this is just as bad as fraudulently tossing a federal election.

However, the optics couldn't come at a better time for the cons, or worse for Bob Rae.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> He did unreservedly and equivocally... to the NDP Party and Caucus.


Yes, I learned that after I made that comment, BigDL alerted me to it.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

The House unanimously passed an NDP motion calling for all MPs of all parties to turn over any information they may have relating to this.

The Conservatives are challenging the Opposition parties to produce any evidence of wrongdoing if they have it. Are they also volunteering to open all their books and submit any records they have of all their dealings with Rack9 or with other automated calling companies? Are they willing to turn over all their paperwork they have on dealings with any of the companies like Response Marketing Group Inc. for scrutiny by Elections Canada and the RCMP? Are they willing to prove to the public that their tactics were completely ethical and above board as they say or are they just going to say, "if you can't find any evidence, nothing happened"?

Conservative candidates alone spent $1.3 million with Response Marketing. This does not include money the federal campaign may have spent with that company as they are not required to break it down to individual companies.

If there is evidence here, it stands to reason given that the companies involved are Conservative contractors, that most of it would be in the hands of the Conservative Party.

This is why we need an open public inquiry, we can not rely on those in any party who may potentially have incriminating evidence to just turn it over. They must be compelled to do so and they must be put under oath. 

Meanwhile, I would bet that since last week, shredders are churning and hard drives are being wiped.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Hardly getting any work done today.

Keeping my eye on #robocalls has been fascinating.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The House unanimously passed an NDP motion calling for all MPs of all parties to turn over any information they may have relating to this.
> 
> The Conservatives are challenging the Opposition parties to produce any evidence of wrongdoing if they have it. Are they also volunteering to open all their books and submit any records they have of all their dealings with Rack9 or with other automated calling companies? Are they willing to turn over all their paperwork they have on dealings with any of the companies like Response Marketing Group Inc. for scrutiny by Elections Canada and the RCMP? Are they willing to prove to the public that their tactics were completely ethical and above board as they say or are they just going to say, "if you can't find any evidence, nothing happened"?
> 
> Conservative candidates alone spent $1.3 million with Response Marketing. This does not include money the federal campaign may have spent with that company as they are not required to break it down to individual companies.
> 
> If there is evidence here, it stands to reason given that the companies involved are Conservative contractors, that most of it would be in the hands of the Conservative Party.
> 
> This is why we need an open public inquiry, we can not rely on those in any party who may potentially have incriminating evidence to just turn it over. They must be compelled to do so and they must be put under oath.
> 
> *Meanwhile, I would bet that since last week, shredders are churning and hard drives are being wiped.*


Could be and as I already stated in the court of public opinion one is guilty until proven innocent... this kind of statement fits nicely within that mentality...


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Hardly getting any work done today.
> 
> Keeping my eye on #robocalls has been fascinating.


And there is no way that anti-con forces are now making false claims/tweets of calls... none at all...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Could be and as I already stated in the court of public opinion one is guilty until proven innocent... this kind of statement fits nicely within that mentality...


Where did I say anyone was guilty?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> And there is no way that anti-con forces are now making false claims/tweets of calls... none at all...


Twitter is twitter, I don't believe everything I read, do you?


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Where did I say anyone was guilty?


You most certainly implied it when you said:



> Meanwhile, I would bet that since last week, shredders are churning and hard drives are being wiped.


Or did you mean to suggest something else?


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Twitter is twitter, I don't believe everything I read, do you?


I think you know the answer to that.... but you were the one providing the link so why would I not respond? Do you believe everything you read on Twitter? Personally I don't even have a Twitter account.

Seems you are doing just a little bit of back peddling now... no need, you have made it plain... Guilty until proven innocent...


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Yep it is a fact. In the court of some of the public's opinion. All of what you say in your post is yet to be proven by anyone. But in the court of public opinion, accusation is all that matters and one is considered guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> Thank god there are actual legal courts and judges to determine the veracity of such things...


The RoboCon plot could be dispensed with quickly. If the Cons have nothing to hide why doesn't OGL produce all the information, for the public to see all of the records, from the past election.

If your innocent why would anyone be reticent to bring forth the proof.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> He did unreservedly and equivocally... to the NDP Party and Caucus.


I do not think much of an apology when one has to ask for it.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The RoboCon plot could be dispensed with quickly. If the Cons have nothing to hide why doesn't OGL produce all the information, for the public to see all of the records, from the past election.
> 
> If your innocent why would anyone be reticent to bring forth the proof.


Which records would you bring forth to prove something didn't happen?


----------



## BigDL

*OGL New ROBOCON PLOT MANTRA*

Here we have the next big hit, Our Glorious Leader, is performing to ingratiate his Government to his followers for a stolen election.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRQCN5x1-NI


----------



## Macfury

These gags must really wow them down in Moncton.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Here we have the next big hit, Our Glorious Leader, is performing to ingratiate his Government to his followers for a stolen election.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRQCN5x1-NI


:lmao:

I have to admit. It is, kind of entertaining, after the years of listening to ADSCAM!!! JAIL'EM ALLLLL! THEY'RE ALLLLL CRIMINALS!!!

We get treated to, 'show us proof!'

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I have to admit. It is, kind of entertaining, after the years of listening to ADSCAM!!! JAIL'EM ALLLLL! THEY'RE ALLLLL CRIMINALS!!!


What kind of people do you hang around with?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> GratuitousApplesauce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say anyone was guilty?
> 
> 
> 
> You most certainly implied it when you said:
> 
> 
> GratuitousApplesauce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, I would bet that since last week, shredders are churning and hard drives are being wiped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or did you mean to suggest something else?
Click to expand...




screature said:


> Seems you are doing just a little bit of back peddling now... no need, you have made it plain... Guilty until proven innocent...


OK screature, I think you are reading into what you _think_ I'm saying because you are assuming from what you know of my political viewpoint that this _must_ be what I'm saying. Or maybe my writing isn't that clear. So I'll attempt to clarify.

I think I've been clear, even in the post you quoted where above the part you bolded I said "This is why we need an open public inquiry, we can not rely on *those in any party* who may potentially have incriminating evidence to just turn it over." I meant that whoever is responsible (I don't know if this is necessarily a Conservative) will be seeking to shred and erase what they can.

I also said the other day in post #3697 that "I think all this talk of blame is premature since we know very little about the evidence."

I'm not "back-peddling" because I've been saying this all along. Therefore I think it would be unfair of you to continue to assert that I am saying the Cons are "guilty until proven innocent".

_Someone_ has committed crimes. We don't know who at this point, whether it's Conservative, Liberal, NDP, rogue whackos or if it's just isolated incidents as McKay is saying. I have my suspicions about it as does everyone, but I would not say anyone is guilty of anything unless it was actually shown to be true.

All that said, I have no problem looking at what we do know and trying to understand the information that is coming to light by the hour. I think that the Conservatives could go a long way towards clearing this up by agreeing for a full inquiry and by making sure whoever is investigating this has full access to all their records dealing with companies like Rack9 and Response Marketing Group. If they are truly guiltless in this affair, as they claim to be, then they should be rushing to clear their names. Certainly any appearance of stone-walling or deflecting this doesn't help to remove suspicions people may have.



screature said:


> I think you know the answer to that.... but you were the one providing the link so why would I not respond? Do you believe everything you read on Twitter? Personally I don't even have a Twitter account.


Regarding Twitter, I didn't post the link to the #robocall twitter feed to indicate that everything there is to be believed. Your comment was sarcastic when you said: "And there is no way that anti-con forces are now making false claims/tweets of calls... none at all..." 

I didn't intend my post to indicate that the Twitter feed was to be believed or not. It's a mix of opinions, viewpoints and various links to media pages and blogs from every political angle, including Conservative. All I was commenting on by posting that was that I found it fascinating and that I was having trouble getting work done because of it. I'm not sure why you responded with the sarcasm to that.

I hope that clarifies. You may not think of me as a fair-minded person, but I do believe that I am. 

No -- I do not like Stephen Harper or his crew one little bit, but I also wouldn't condemn him of something without the evidence to back it up. Of course there is already much to condemn him for on other issues, IMVHO, that has ample evidence to draw upon.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - update - disruption and illegal robocalling in 40 ridings and counting*

List of ridings hit by election calls complaints - Politics - CBC News

The list just keeps growing. We need a complete investigation of Harper's CON illegal activities now!

Brought to you by JNN - "CONS are having a bad February eh"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - disruption and illegal robocalling - interview guilty call centre employee*

As it Happens (A CBC Radio Production with an international audience) comes through -

Audio

Brought to you by JNN - "Making CON supporters face the truth since 2011 - chit"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> List of ridings hit by election calls complaints - Politics - CBC News
> 
> The list just keeps growing. We need a complete investigation of Harper's CON illegal activities now!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "CONS are having a bad February eh"


ROBOCON Plot is Coast to Coast but not Canada wide.


----------



## BigDL

*Is Our Glorious Leader really Megatron?*

OGL has been accused of presenting himself as being rather wooded, maybe the guess of the material is incorrect.

Maybe OGL is made of sterner stuff, perhaps metal and he is really Megatron the leader of the DeceptiCons.

With the ROBOCON Plot do we see, just how deceptive, the Cons truly are? Just like the DeceptiCons when Megatron is not around each DeceptiCon thinks he is the leader? Coincidence? I wonder, hmmm!

Whatever it is DO we now have DeceptiCons amongst us? Stay tuned to JNN for further updates.

More than meet the eye...or is it robots in disguise...maybe robots in the skies?


----------



## groovetube

Well you can bet the decepticons (love that), aren't going to be interested in any way in a public inquiry if they can help it. ANything that raises this issue in the public mind and keeps it there (like Martin and his adscam inquiry) is going simply hand the opposition a major bat for the next election, regardless of what it finds. 

The methods has always been, deny, suppress, in court if necessary, and act as though it never happened. As I said I think political parties learned from Martin's huge mistake of calling a public inquiry.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON Rogues Gallery - Stewart Braddick*

Stewart Braddick of RMG knows public money pocketer Brian Mulroney, philanderer Mike Harris, and failed Ph.D. candidate Stephen Harper -

Would you trust this man?


----------



## kps

As much s I'd trust the guy on the left...

(give the word and I'll delete this)


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> OK screature, I think you are reading into what you _think_ I'm saying because you are assuming from what you know of my political viewpoint that this _must_ be what I'm saying. Or maybe my writing isn't that clear. So I'll attempt to clarify...
> 
> I hope that clarifies. You may not think of me as a fair-minded person, but I do believe that I am.
> 
> No -- I do not like Stephen Harper or his crew one little bit, but I also wouldn't condemn him of something without the evidence to back it up. Of course there is already much to condemn him for on other issues, IMVHO, that has ample evidence to draw upon.


Fair enough GA, I do believe you to be generally fair minded, certainly more so than most who post here.

As to calling a public inquiry it will take more information before the PM will do that. As has been pointed out by several journalists Harper saw the political fallout from Martin calling the Gomery inquiry and so he will be loath to have a repeat of that.

Time will tell as more is known...

On another aspect of this Chantal Hebert raises some interesting questions:

Robo-call accusations raise uncomfortable questions



> If there is a tactical scheme behind the so-called voter suppression scandal, it is not readily apparent in the list of allegedly abused ridings put forward by the opposition parties.
> 
> Only a small fraction of the 50 federal seats where the margin of victory was less than 5 per cent last May — and where presumably every vote counted — are alleged to have been targeted by fraudulent calls.
> 
> Liberal ridings such as Brampton-Springdale and Ajax-Pickering that were known to be high on the Conservatives’ to-win list (and that they did win) were apparently not plagued by such calls.
> 
> On the other hand, a substantial number of the three dozen ridings on the opposition list were safe Conservative seats.
> 
> Take the Ontario riding of Wellington-Halton Hills. On May 2, former Conservative minister Michael Chong kept the seat with a majority of 26,000 and 63 per cent of the vote. He clearly needed no help to get re-elected.
> 
> Chong has emerged as one of the least partisan voices in Parliament. He resigned from Stephen Harper’s first cabinet over a matter of principle. It is hard to imagine that he would have countenanced party-sanctioned dirty tricks in his riding.
> 
> In Simcoe-Grey, the Conservatives won by more than 20,000 votes and the aggrieved Liberals ran fourth, behind the NDP and former Conservative incumbent Helena Guergis.
> 
> In the Toronto riding of Parkdale-High Park, both opposition parties have complained that their supporters were victims of early morning or late night calls from people misrepresenting themselves as volunteers for their campaigns. In Davenport, the NDP reported the same complaint.
> 
> The Conservatives did not really have a dog in either fight. They ran a distant third in both ridings.
> 
> And then did Justice Minister Rob Nicholson (majority 16,000 +) or Conservative incumbent Rick Dykstra (majority 13,000 +) seriously need a dose of dark arts to hang on their Niagara Falls and St. Catharines ridings?
> 
> A Machiavellian mastermind could always have orchestrated fraudulent calls to a host of ridings where such tricks were unlikely to affect the outcome for or against the Conservatives just to throw anyone off the scent of an orchestrated pattern.
> 
> But that sounds like a high-risk investment for a relatively low yield. The Conservative vote is not noticeably more vigorous in the ridings where the opposition is alleging that fraudulent calls took place than in comparable ones....


----------



## groovetube

> A few months ago I was a card carrying Conservative, serving as a director on both the Guelph and Kitchener-Center Conservative electoral district association boards. I succeeded Michael Sona as president of the University of Guelph Campus Conservatives and I can tell you I deeply regret all the work I have done for the Conservative Party of Canada.
> 
> They have gone against Canadian values and have made a joke out of our democracy. I believed I was working for a cause to bring greater accountability, transparency and respect for the taxpayer; the result was just the opposite.
> 
> Canada is a great nation, built by a people who value hard work, taking responsibility for one’s actions and above all honesty. The government that sits in Ottawa values only power and cannibalizes its own in order to save face.
> 
> As someone who has seen what is talked about in the party, I can only say God help Canada in the next four years. Because it won’t be the country that veterans, like my grandfather fought so hard to protect.
> 
> Victor Pocaterra, Kitchener


Ex-Conservative has warning - thestar.com

cue the 'cannibalizing' as he says...


----------



## BigDL

Oh my, perhaps if David Orchard was able to keep Li'l Petey on the straight and narrow


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> As much s I'd trust the guy on the left...
> 
> (give the word and I'll delete this)


Guilty by association!

Book em Dano!:clap::clap:


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> Ex-Conservative has warning - thestar.com
> 
> cue the 'cannibalizing' as he says...


Here's a photo of Sona from his first day on the job. We're dialin' for $$$$$Dollars$$$$$!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Fair enough GA, I do believe you to be generally fair minded, certainly more so than most who post here.
> 
> As to calling a public inquiry it will take more information before the PM will do that. As has been pointed out by several journalists Harper saw the political fallout from Martin calling the Gomery inquiry and so he will be loath to have a repeat of that.
> 
> Time will tell as more is known...
> 
> On another aspect of this Chantal Hebert raises some interesting questions:
> 
> Robo-call accusations raise uncomfortable questions


I think that was a good column by Hebert. I would doubt that the reports, now in the range of 40-something ridings, would have evidence and stand up to scrutiny in all cases. But to disagree with her, I don't think anyone has to assert that what happened is necessarily connected in all places where reports of calls have surfaced. Short of all the calls being connected as a plot by some "Machiavellian mastermind", we simply don't know what happened. Some attempts at fraud DID occur and some are under investigation.

In the case of the robocalls that came into my riding in 2008, where I received one such call and made a report to Elections Canada that was followed up on, some person or persons did attempt to play a dirty trick on voters the night before that election. There might have been a few possible suspects in that case, but what appeared to be the most plausible was a Conservative or a Conservative supporter who had the knowledge, data, funds and ability to organize a spoofed robocall campaign. Not to say that this was the case, because the investigation unfortunately was abandoned without finding out who committed this crime.

But to quote Chantal Hebert's colleague, conservative Andrew Coyne: Andrew Coyne: All too plausible to think the Conservatives are involved in the robocall scandal | Full Comment | National Post He goes on to say that the public knows nothing about who did this, but goes on to explain why Harper's Conservatives are suspected by many.

Calling an inquiry may be a bad move politically by Harper, but stonewalling, denying or deflecting could also be. In the case of Martin and Gomery, he thought that the inquiry would serve to sandbox the scandal and show that it was committed by Liberals not connected to his group who took over. It didn't because people weren't convinced that Martin and others in his circle were blameless.

If Harper's own investigation has turned up something implicating current Conservatives and if he knows something that he hasn't shared with the public, then he would be foolish to call an inquiry. But if as he says, everything on his side was completely above board an inquiry could show this to be true. I don't think he would be punished if it truly turns out to be "isolated incidents" as Peter McKay claims, but if it was shown that things went higher up, he may suffer the same fate as Martin.

I came across a series of posts of my own that I made here 7 years ago, when many were crowing about the crooked Liberals and I stated that if you support the Cons because you agree with their platform fine, but please don't tell me that they will be immune from any and all corruption. It's simply not possible in politics, -- all parties have elements within them who could be termed "degenerate power whores" (a term I loved from an article SINC had posted about the Liberals). These people are the ones within all parties who really don't care about governing, they care about winning at all costs, pursuing and wielding power and sometimes collecting personal gain. They may or may not be ideologues, the lust for power can be for it's own reason or because they believe they need that power to serve their ideals. I've seen those people within ALL parties, none are exempt. Whoever was responsible for this fraud was of those people. The only antidote is an engaged and aware citizenry. The degenerate power whores always work to suppress that.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON Rogues Gallery - Matt Meier*

Mr. Robocall himself Matt Meier of Racknine - would you buy a used car from this man?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

One positive thing that I think could be done by Parliament around this current scandal would be to tighten up the Canada Elections Act around the subject of using automated call services and telemarketing services.

They could make the rules explicit that any party using any of these calling services must:

• Identify the company making the call, and who commissioned and is paying for the call
• Never spoof caller ID -- the caller ID must either point to the offices of the party commissioning the call or to the identified calling service itself.
• Call must originate in Canada and must use fully Canadian companies -- we can't have companies who work for Republicans or others being involved in our political process.
• Both federal campaigns and local campaigns must keep detailed records of all calls made, including recordings of those calls and have them available for Elections Canada or RCMP review.
• Spreading any kind of false information in such a call will be considered a serious offence.

There's my bill -- someone write it up and take it to Parliament.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> One positive thing that I think could be done by Parliament around this current scandal would be to tighten up the Canada Elections Act around the subject of using automated call services and telemarketing services.
> 
> They could make the rules explicit that any party using any of these calling services must:
> 
> • Identify the company making the call, and who commissioned and is paying for the call
> • Never spoof caller ID -- the caller ID must either point to the offices of the party commissioning the call or to the identified calling service itself.
> • Call must originate in Canada and must use fully Canadian companies -- we can't have companies who work for Republicans or others being involved in our political process.
> • Both federal campaigns and local campaigns must keep detailed records of all calls made, including recordings of those calls and have them available for Elections Canada or RCMP review.
> • Spreading any kind of false information in such a call will be considered a serious offence.
> 
> There's my bill -- someone write it up and take it to Parliament.


How about--"Political robocalls may only be sent to Canadians who opt in to receive them."


----------



## Kosh

How about outright banning automated phone services that phone customers. They serve no useful purpose to citizens, they're just "useful" to companies to cut corners and irritate their customers at any hour of the day ( or night) and perform scams like this and others. 

Come on conservatives! I mean seriously, all of the automated calls I get are either scams are very deceptive calls. You say you want to be tough on crime, well here is something you can do for every citizen of Canada. (It's better than intimidating us by telling us we're with the child porn criminals because we don't want police snooping on us electronically.)

Please note, I'm not included automated phone services that you have to call, like the customer support lines for companies. Yeah I'd like a person there too, but at least these systems don't phone you at all hours of the night.


----------



## CubaMark

*High Arctic research station forced to close*












> Canada's northernmost research laboratory is shutting down for most of the year due to lack of funding.
> 
> The Polar Environment Atmospheric Research Laboratory (PEARL) in Eureka, Nunavut





> That is largely due to the discontinuation of government funding to the Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences, which had been covering three-quarters of the station's costs, and the end to the International Polar Year program.
> 
> "PEARL was an iconic Canadian development that showed our commitment to Polar research," Jim Drummond, a Dalhousie University researcher who is the principal investigator for PEARL and the network, said in a statement.
> 
> "Its closure shows a stunning lack of interest on the part of the Canadian Government in long-term Arctic issues."


(CBC)


----------



## BigDL

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> One positive thing that I think could be done by Parliament around this current scandal would be to tighten up the Canada Elections Act around the subject of using automated call services and telemarketing services.
> 
> They could make the rules explicit that any party using any of these calling services must:
> 
> • Identify the company making the call, and who commissioned and is paying for the call
> • Never spoof caller ID -- the caller ID must either point to the offices of the party commissioning the call or to the identified calling service itself.
> • Call must originate in Canada and must use fully Canadian companies -- we can't have companies who work for Republicans or others being involved in our political process.
> • Both federal campaigns and local campaigns must keep detailed records of all calls made, including recordings of those calls and have them available for Elections Canada or RCMP review.
> • Spreading any kind of false information in such a call will be considered a serious offence.
> 
> There's my bill -- someone write it up and take it to Parliament.


According what was said in Q.P. today there is a bill before Parliament presently that tightens the rules so that Elections Canada could compel everyone to provide the requested information. OGL and the Cons refused to vote for it.

Now this information was from the NDP to the Government so I know of no more detail than that. Is it a bit of theatre or is there "more to it" I can't say. 

I shall watch PnP tonight on CBC Newsworld to see if this mentioned and if there is "more to it" than theatre.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> How about--"Political robocalls may only be sent to Canadians who opt in to receive them."


Good idea -- I support this amendment.



BigDL said:


> According what was said in Q.P. today there is a bill before Parliament presently that tightens the rules so that Elections Canada could compel everyone to provide the requested information. OGL and the Cons refused to vote for it.
> 
> Now this information was from the NDP to the Government so I know of no more detail than that. Is it a bit of theatre or is there "more to it" I can't say.
> 
> I shall watch PnP tonight on CBC Newsworld to see if this mentioned and if there is "more to it" than theatre.


Really? Why isn't this in the news? And given what's going on, what possible defence could any party have for not supporting it?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Pierre Poutine of Separatist Street, Joliet Quebec. 

Cute. Maybe the ID spoofer thought Elections Canada would think the Bloc did it.

no name poutine sauce.


----------



## jimbotelecom

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Pierre Poutine of Separatist Street, Joliet Quebec.
> 
> Cute. Maybe the ID spoofer thought Elections Canada would think the Bloc did it.
> 
> no name poutine sauce.


Registered on separatist street. :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## jimbotelecom

CubaMark said:


> *High Arctic research station forced to close*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


I do find this disgusting. Kick this band of idiots out.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Apparently this is a real restaurant located in Guelph.

71 MacDonell St. Guelph ON. Good reviews on Yelp.

We need the security camera HDD. Zoom in -- right on that reflection -- zoom in -- enhance.


----------



## Dr.G.

This is starting to sound like an episode of The Sopranos.


----------



## MacDoc

That's a SERIOUS amount of smoke - pretty petty....why am I not surprised from Friends of Rove.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> That's a SERIOUS amount of smoke - pretty petty....why am I not surprised from Friends of Rove.


Pretty petty?


----------



## BigDL

wicked, wicked, eh, eh, eh, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Say no more, say no more,eh, eh.





I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor


----------



## groovetube

shiny ball!


----------



## mrjimmy

Pierre's Poutine looks mighty good. I'd like to go there for lunch!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Pierre's Poutine looks mighty good. I'd like to go there for lunch!


Woder if he is related to PM Jean Poutine, who gave an endorsement to George Bush, at least according to Rick Mercer.

Ric Mercer Talking with Americans - YouTube


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - The Message - We want a full investigation Harper!*

Recording of fake Elections Canada robo-call - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "we got em surrounded folks...we'll wait em out and then pounce"


----------



## BigDL

Pierre and Jean Poutine, are from different States, aren't they? Sooo I'm not sure.





I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor...sure...the wife...Ok, the wife, but that goes with saying...


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Recording of fake Elections Canada robo-call - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "we got em surrounded folks...we'll wait em out and then pounce"


A full investigation of DeceptiCons? Hmmm! Do we need to go to that expense and end out with the same conclusion?





I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor...sure...the wife...Ok, the wife, but that goes with saying...


----------



## i-rui

as juicy as the robo-call scandal is, it's a shame that it's taking the spotlight away from other important issues. here's a great interview with Kevin Page on the added cost of restricting conditional sentences in c-10 (he already said that the mandatory sentencing provisions will cost us billions)

Conditional sentence changes to cost millions: Page | CTV News



> Page said his office was established to be "the second data point" when costing government programs. But in this case "we are the only data point," he said, because there is no evidence to suggest the federal government has costed the legislation for the provinces and territories.
> 
> "The federal government has never said anything to the provinces about what they thought the costs would be," Page said. "So that's a big transparency issue."


and this government paints itself as being fiscally responsible? really?


----------



## Macfury

I don't understand the value of the concept of mandatory sentencing on anything.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I don't understand the value of the concept of mandatory sentencing on anything.


Nor I.

Part of a Judges job is evaluating how much of a threat a criminal poses. If there is little threat, the protecting society part of a prison term goes out the window. This simply cannot be written into legislation.

OTH where the Judge perceives extreme threat as with some kiddie rapists, he may need the latitude to impose a harsher sentence than would otherwise be considered.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON - scandal across 40 ridings -#harpergovernment*

5 more ridings report suspicious election calls - Politics - CBC News

Brought to you by JNN - "Figaro....chit!"


----------



## screature

.


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> According what was said in Q.P. today there is a bill before Parliament presently that tightens the rules so that Elections Canada could compel everyone to provide the requested information. OGL and the Cons refused to vote for it.
> 
> Now this information was from the NDP to the Government so I know of no more detail than that. Is it a bit of theatre or is there "more to it" I can't say.
> 
> I shall watch PnP tonight on CBC Newsworld to see if this mentioned and if there is "more to it" than theatre.





GratuitousApplesauce said:


> One positive thing that I think could be done by Parliament around this current scandal would be to tighten up the Canada Elections Act around the subject of using automated call services and telemarketing services.
> 
> They could make the rules explicit that any party using any of these calling services must:
> 
> • Identify the company making the call, and who commissioned and is paying for the call
> • Never spoof caller ID -- the caller ID must either point to the offices of the party commissioning the call or to the identified calling service itself.
> • Call must originate in Canada and must use fully Canadian companies -- we can't have companies who work for Republicans or others being involved in our political process.
> • Both federal campaigns and local campaigns must keep detailed records of all calls made, including recordings of those calls and have them available for Elections Canada or RCMP review.
> • Spreading any kind of false information in such a call will be considered a serious offence.
> 
> There's my bill -- someone write it up and take it to Parliament.


I made reference yesterday to "a Bill" that was brought up Q.P. well I regret to report it wasn't "a Bill" but recommendations in a report on the 2008 election. 

Here is the question asked by David Christopherson on February 28th 2012 in Question Period


HansardRecord David Christopherson's Question said:


> Mr. Speaker, the procedure and House affairs committee just finished reviewing the Chief Electoral Officer's recommendations from the 2008 election.
> 
> He asked that Elections Canada be given the power to demand any documentation from any political party he deemed necessary to verify their compliance with the law. We agreed. The Conservatives did not.
> 
> How can Conservatives claim they want specific evidence brought forward when it suits them, then vote against giving the Chief Electoral Officer the very power he needs to demand that specific evidence be brought forward?


 Link to OpenParliament.ca Hansard


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON - punishing our youth for not voting CON - #harpergovernment*

Student job centres shut down across Canada - Ottawa - CBC News

Make sure nothing works and put Diane in charge!

a JNN co-production - "Make em starve, eh"


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON Rogues Gallery - No Hope Harper poster*

.


----------



## groovetube

Oh this ain't going well for Harper is it. 

Put this on top of all the other bumbling stumbles, the BS as well, and this just isn't a pretty picture. Quite a first year in majority isn't it. The next 3 will be something won't it.

Oh and here.
Robocalls also allegedly made during Ontario election | CTV News

What is it with the conservatives that somehow everything just turns outright nasty and right into the mud?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yup, the pro-torture party is going to be torturing us (the majority) for years. It's wonderful to see conservative media questioning the CONS. I don't see this turning into watergate to topple these crooks but the great Canadian middle definitely took a kick to the gonads for giving these criminals the keys to majority power.


----------



## BigDL

Exsanguination can happen from a decapitation or a thousand cuts, we shall see if it is true, for the DeceptiCons as well.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

MacKinnon has got to be one of the least funny cartoonists in the field. With such rich material to work with, each of his cartoons is an epic fail.


----------



## BigDL

There, eh, know whatcya mean, eh, say no more, say no more.







I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor...sure...the wife...Ok, the wife, but that goes with saying...huh...Magistrate...Magist...right, a Magistrate could...


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON Rogues Gallery - Robocaller*

Courtesy of Terry Mosher -


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Bang on. Enough to upset a few


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Courtesy of Terry Mosher -


Aislin is doing_ Laugh-In_ jokes now? Ouch!


----------



## BigDL

There see there eh! Eh! Say no more, say no more. Nod is as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh, eh!







I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor...sure...the wife...Ok, the wife, but that goes with saying...huh...Magistrate...Magist...right, a Magistrate could...


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> There see there eh! Eh! Say no more, say no more. Nod is as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh, eh!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor...sure...the wife...Ok, the wife, but that goes with saying...huh...Magistrate...Magist...right, a Magistrate could...


BigDL, you have the freedom to post, just as you have the freedom to wave your arms about, but that freedom stops at the noses of the Three Ms -- my nose, Macfury's nose, and Mr. Mayor's nose. 

As Henry David Thoreau wrote in "Walden", "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." 

So, write away, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## i-rui

i'm watching power & politics on cbc right now and it's maddening watching Dean Del Mastro trying to spin what he said in QP :

Robocalls battle fires up Commons - Politics - CBC News

where the cons tried to pin the blame on the liberals for the robo-calls. 

what an absolute mess.


----------



## MLeh

i-rui said:


> i'm watching power & politics on cbc right now and it's maddening watching Dean Del Mastro trying to spin what he said in QP :
> 
> Robocalls battle fires up Commons - Politics - CBC News
> 
> where the cons tried to pin the blame on the liberals for the robo-calls.
> 
> what an absolute mess.


Part of the problem is the 'instantaneousness' of everything. Everyone is accusing everyone else, but there is no proof of anything. I think I'd like to take about a 2 week break from all the finger pointing, let the investigations happen, and then come back and find out what the REAL story is.

Until then, it's all spin spin spin ...

(I'd like to spank them all, send them ALL to their rooms to THINK about what they've done ...)


----------



## i-rui

i agree, the accusations are getting pretty crazy on all sides.

at this point i think we need a full public inquiry to be called while elections canada & the rcmp continue to investigate on their own.


----------



## MLeh

I'm not one to jump on the 'full public inquiry' bandwagon quite yet - let's let the process work for a week or two before committing to that. We can always call for a full public inquiry once more details are known.


----------



## i-rui

my problem with that line of thinking is that elections canada (and the RCMP) knew about many of these complaints *SINCE* the election. there wasn't any real movement on the investigation until post media exposed how wide the range of the complaints were.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, you have the freedom to post, just as you have the freedom to wave your arms about, but that freedom stops at the noses of the Three Ms -- my nose, Macfury's nose, and Mr. Mayor's nose.
> 
> As Henry David Thoreau wrote in "Walden", "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."
> 
> So, write away, mon ami. Paix.


After nearly an hour without any posting in this thread, I don't believe I interrupted anyone's conversation. 

I posted a thought. It was not a response. It was merely a thought.

Macfury, has admitted to posting with the intent to rile for his own amusement. 

So I freely admit I am posting here for my amusement as well. 

Citizens have the freedom to make wild accusations as well as making accusations that are well founded. 

If someone accused me of posting after Macfury for my enjoyment and with the intent to possibly having the added bonus of riling him they would be absolutely correct.

Those who not wish to read my thoughts do have a ready remedy to do so as I have that ready remedy open to me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON Rogues Gallery - Dean Del Mastro*

Apologist and accuser - RECALL!


----------



## BigDL

This picture reminds me of Jackie Gleason's "Bang, zoom! To the moon Alice, to the Moon!"


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> After nearly an hour without any posting in this thread, I don't believe I interrupted anyone's conversation.
> 
> I posted a thought. It was not a response. It was merely a thought.
> 
> Macfury, has admitted to posting with the intent to rile for his own amusement.
> 
> So I freely admit I am posting here for my amusement as well.
> 
> Citizens have the freedom to make wild accusations as well as making accusations that are well founded.
> 
> If someone accused me of posting after Macfury for my enjoyment and with the intent to possibly having the added bonus of riling him they would be absolutely correct.
> 
> Those who not wish to read my thoughts do have a ready remedy to do so as I have that ready remedy open to me.


I recall addressing this before, and somehow it was MY fault that macfury is a self admitted troll.

Screw that.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> After nearly an hour without any posting in this thread, I don't believe I interrupted anyone's conversation.
> 
> I posted a thought. It was not a response. It was merely a thought.
> 
> Macfury, has admitted to posting with the intent to rile for his own amusement.
> 
> So I freely admit I am posting here for my amusement as well.
> 
> Citizens have the freedom to make wild accusations as well as making accusations that are well founded.
> 
> If someone accused me of posting after Macfury for my enjoyment and with the intent to possibly having the added bonus of riling him they would be absolutely correct.
> 
> Those who not wish to read my thoughts do have a ready remedy to do so as I have that ready remedy open to me.


BigDL, you have interrupted Macfury's train of thought, and my concentration with your constant display of logic and valid commentary. If we were in Parliament and you were not on the side of the majority government, we would be hooting you down like an owl. 

Still, you have the right to be wise and make "well founded" accusations. Personally, I just wish you would not use so many valid facts. This robocall situation could result in PM Harper's Watergate if we are not careful to end the discussion right now. No one thought that Nixon would resign, especially after he told everyone the he "was not a crook". So, I feel that for all concerned it is best if we just let this issue die down and let the Harper Government of Canada remain in power. For, as the old saying goes, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad man." 

So, call PM Harper a great man all you want ................. just be careful with those waving arms of yours.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## MacDoc

Back on political after acknowledging a known reality 

The Cons me sick ....Harper and cronies are just flat out thugs with an agenda.....

Leading journal demands Harper set Canada’s scientists free - The Globe and Mail


----------



## eMacMan

MacDoc said:


> Back on political after acknowledging a known reality
> 
> The Cons me sick ....Harper and cronies are just flat out thugs with an agenda.....
> 
> Leading journal demands Harper set Canada’s scientists free - The Globe and Mail


True but their most egregious assaults on Canadians, Bills C-11 and C-30 were originally introduced by the Liberals. Obviously both parties owe their loyalty to the same puppet masters.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, you have interrupted Macfury's train of thought, and my concentration with your constant display of logic and valid commentary. If we were in Parliament and you were not on the side of the majority government, we would be hooting you down like an owl.
> 
> Still, you have the right to be wise and make "well founded" accusations. Personally, I just wish you would not use so many valid facts. This robocall situation could result in PM Harper's Watergate if we are not careful to end the discussion right now. No one thought that Nixon would resign, especially after he told everyone the he "was not a crook". So, I feel that for all concerned it is best if we just let this issue die down and let the Harper Government of Canada remain in power. For, as the old saying goes, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad man."
> 
> So, call PM Harper a great man all you want ................. just be careful with those waving arms of yours.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I don't wish OGL a reduction in power, I have in fact suggested that he may be as powerful as Megatron leader of the DeceptiCons so in fact a major increase in powerfulness if there ever was.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I don't wish OGL a reduction in power, I have in fact suggested that he may be as powerful as Megatron leader of the DeceptiCons so in fact a major increase in powerfulness if there ever was.


Be careful what you wish for, BigDL. "... absolute power corrupts absolutely" and we would not want to have our beloved prime minister have to resign due to something as silly as these robocalls. So what if people went to the wrong place to vote and ended up not voting. Look at what we ended up with!!! A majority Harper Government of Canada. "Praise the Lord" and pass the patronage. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

The re-education camp has worked well G. I may be sent soon enough if I don't start behaving.

Hold on, the doorbell...


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> The re-education camp has worked well G. I may be sent soon enough if I don't start behaving.
> 
> Hold on, the doorbell...


They have come for gt. Serves him right. Alas poor gt, I knew him, Horatio.

"People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 1


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Be careful what you wish for, BigDL. "... absolute power corrupts absolutely" and we would not want to have our beloved prime minister have to resign due to something as silly as these robocalls. So what if people went to the wrong place to vote and ended up not voting. Look at what we ended up with!!! A majority Harper Government of Canada. "Praise the Lord" and pass the patronage.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Oh! Dr.G., you forgot stable, "stable majority Conservative Government." Remember how far to keep the stable away from decent folks and what may dwell in the stables.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Oh! Dr.G., you forgot stable, "stable majority Conservative Government." Remember how far to keep the stable away from decent folks and what may dwell in the stables.


I grew up in New York City and lived in an apartment house, so I know little about horses and stables. 

Still, the Harper Government of Canada is only as stable as its weakest link. Hopefully, they will not ever find the missing 18 1/2 minutes of this tape. We shall see.

Election call tapes being reviewed by Conservatives - Politics - CBC News

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

what the hell are they doing in there with their paws on the evidence before elections canada reviews them?

unbelievable.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> what the hell are they doing in there with their paws on the evidence before elections canada reviews them?
> 
> unbelievable.


I hear that the Harper Government of Canada has hired investigators from the Rose Mary Woods Technology Group to look into this matter. Elections Canada will be able to see the evidence once this group is through with their investigation. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps this right should be extended to any Canadian who is accused of a crime. Allow unfettered access to the evidence first, before the cops have a chance to see or collect the evidence.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Perhaps this right should be extended to any Canadian who is accused of a crime. Allow unfettered access to the evidence first, before the cops have a chance to see or collect the evidence.


That makes no sense. It is one thing to allow The Harper Government of Canada a chance to avoid their own Watergate scandal, but it is another thing to allow you or me a chance to tamper with evidence. As they say, "justice must be served". We are all "innocent until proven guilty", but it is best for us all if The Harper Government of Canada has a chance to avoid being proven guilty. Their best option would be to blame the Liberals and the NDP of these robocalls. This way, the Liberals and the NDP could be seen as trying to undermine The Harper Government of Canada in an attempt to bring about a Watergate-like scandal. If this does not work, stonewall until the next election. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> The re-education camp has worked well G. I may be sent soon enough if I don't start behaving.


They don't accept just anyone for re-eductaion camp. There are entry standards.


----------



## groovetube

You're right. I suppose you have to be at least somewhat willing for it to work.


----------



## BigDL

*Sore losers?*

DeceptiCons can stand in Parliament and wail about why is this being brought up now? It isn't just somebody coming late to the party.

The Date Line May 02, 2011

This story date lined May 02, 2011 brings up a host of dirty tricks at the time of the elections.



CBCNews said:


> A spokesman for Liberal Anita Neville, who's running for re-election in Winnipeg-South Centre, said they started getting calls from voters on Saturday asking whether their polling stations had changed.
> 
> Some reports have said voters are getting phone calls telling them their polling station has changed, but Francine Bastien, an Elections Canada official, wouldn't say precisely how people are getting the false information.
> 
> *"We just want to make sure that both the media and the voters know that there have not been any changes in the voting [locations] ... and that the documents they receive from Elections Canada [and] the Elections Canada website is the accurate information they should trust in order to vote tomorrow," Bastien said.*
> 
> "I don't know the details exactly but I understand they were getting information to the effect that they should vote in different locations, sometimes being referred to locations that were an hour away from their residence."
> 
> Bastien said she can't yet address whether the election agency will investigate the false information.





CBCNews said:


> Names cross off voting lists
> A different type of voting problem was experienced by several Montreal voters.
> 
> When Robin Warren showed up to vote on Monday, she said her name had been crossed off the voter list.
> 
> She had to sign an affidavit swearing she had not voted already.
> 
> While Warren was at the polling station, she said another woman who lives in the same apartment complex had an identical problem.
> 
> "On my way back home after we dealt with all this I ran into another group of ladies outside and all their names were crossed off the list, and they had to go through the same thing of signing affidavits. There's something not right here. There's too many people in one building," Warren said.
> 
> Warren said she called Elections Canada to complain but she said the elections agency called the situation an irregularity.


----------



## mrjimmy

eMacMan said:


> True but their most egregious assaults on Canadians, Bills C-11 and C-30 were originally introduced by the Liberals. Obviously both parties owe their loyalty to the same puppet masters.


This is how I'm viewing politics more and more these days.

They create the illusion of right and left and let us argue to distraction.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> They create the illusion of right and left and let us argue to distraction.


I they need to work harder on creating better illusions.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I they need to work harder on creating better illusions.


Can you be more clear?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Can you be more clear?


Even the presentation of their supposed differences is pretty lacklustre. They agree on so much that what's left makes for some pretty feeble theatre.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Even the presentation of their supposed differences is pretty lacklustre. They agree on so much that what's left makes for some pretty feeble theatre.


Perhaps to you and I but there is enough grain in this silo to feed the electorate indefinitely.

I'm not sure what we would do as a society when the 'a-ha' moment hits us. Burn the House Of Commons down? It appears as though we are hopelessly enslaved.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Perhaps to you and I but there is enough grain in this silo to feed the electorate indefinitely.
> 
> I'm not sure what we would do as a society when the 'a-ha' moment hits us. Burn the House Of Commons down? It appears as though we are hopelessly enslaved.


There will never be an "a-ha" moment. You and I will disagree on this, but once government becomes large enough to collect enough money from 49% of Canadians to make life demonstrably easier for the other 51%, the electorate will simply move back and forth between the the parties offering to put them on the dole in some fashion. 

The end will come when the government begins to shift the blame for the failing economy, etc. to the decreasing donor class. Class envy will probably provide the final blow.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON - scandal 31,000 complaints - #harpergovernment*

Elections Canada faces 31,000 complaints in robo-call probe - The Globe and Mail

Take your time and spare no expense. We want answers for this thuggery!
Book em Dano!

Brought to you by JNN - "Hey harper - thanks for the stability - chit"


----------



## CubaMark

(Toronto Star)


----------



## BigDL

It's little wonder that OGL had his DeceptiCons vote in committee against allowing the Chief Electoral Officer a full access pass to the facts. 

These Cons can't handle the truth.




BigDL said:


> I made reference yesterday to "a Bill" that was brought up Q.P. well I regret to report it wasn't "a Bill" but recommendations in a report on the 2008 election.




Here is the question asked by David Christopherson on February 28th 2012 in Question Period Link to OpenParliament.ca Hansard 



Originally Posted by HansardRecord David Christopherson's Question said:


> Mr. Speaker, the procedure and House affairs committee just finished reviewing the Chief Electoral Officer's recommendations from the 2008 election.
> 
> He asked that Elections Canada be given the power to demand any documentation from any political party he deemed necessary to verify their compliance with the law. We agreed. The Conservatives did not.
> 
> How can Conservatives claim they want specific evidence brought forward when it suits them, then vote against giving the Chief Electoral Officer the very power he needs to demand that specific evidence be brought forward?


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON-investigation team has found dirty CON tricks B4 - #harpergovernment*

Canada News: Robo-calls: Veteran dirty-tricks investigator assigned to robo-calls probe - thestar.com


Get em boys. It's tar and feather time folks. Arrrrr!

Brought to you by JNN - "enjoying the downhill slide since 2011 - chit"


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> (Toronto Star)


That one is funny.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Toronto Star)


Good one, CM. :lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## screature

^^^ +3 it is a good one.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON - Shoulda used stuxnet instead of robocall - #harpergovernment*

.


----------



## Macfury

That's not a good one.


----------



## BigDL

Eh! Eh! Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.


----------



## groovetube

jeez you guys you're getting it really angry.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> jeez you guys you're getting it really angry.


What?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Eh! Eh! Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more.


nudge
verb
1 he nudged Ben: poke, elbow, dig, prod, jog, jab.
2 the canoe nudged a bank: touch, bump (against), push (against), run into.
3 we nudged them into action: prompt, encourage, stimulate, prod, galvanize.
4 unemployment was nudging 3,000,000: approach, near, come close to, be verging on, border on.
noun
1 Maggie gave him a nudge: poke, prod, jog, jab, push, dig (in the ribs).
2 after a nudge, she remembered Lillian: reminder, prompt, prompting, prod, encouragement.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What?


Out of the mouths of babes.


----------



## groovetube

H ah. In other "what? Who me? wha wha.." from conservatives who can't make sens to save their lives, you just have to laugh...

Power Play with Don Martin



> This five-term miracle of an MP, who has done little to justify his longevity, nodded off in camera range during a Question Period last fall. This week, several witnesses report he dozed during a veterans committee meeting while MPs were being briefed on a program to help homeless vets.
> 
> Anders denies all of course, *retreating to the mistaken and desperate smearing of his accusers as NDP sympathizers who support Russian President Vladmir Putin. Nobody can quite figure out what he means by either flailing accusation.*


:lmao::lmao:

It seems that methodology works here too! :baby:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> H ah. In other "what? Who me? wha wha.." from conservatives who can't make sens to save their lives, you just have to laugh...
> 
> Power Play with Don Martin
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao:
> 
> It seems that methodology works here too! :baby:


What?


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> H ah. In other "what? Who me? wha wha.." from conservatives who can't make sens to save their lives, you just have to laugh...
> 
> Power Play with Don Martin
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao:
> 
> It seems that methodology works here too! :baby:


I hope the Honourable Member is not afflicted with undiagnosed or an untreated case of Type II Diabetes.

With high glucose levels people nod off very unexpectedly and can be irrationally angry as result of low glucose levels.

The other explanation, he's a cranky Conservative.


----------



## mrjimmy

Hey JNN, have you seen read this one?

Exactly how dangerous is Stephen Harper? - The Globe and Mail



> I’m informed by a former Conservative operative familiar with both the party and technology that there’s far more to be revealed in this saga. This is said specifically to involve close ties between the Harperites and American Republicans who have been constructing a terrifying, full-blown voter suppression machine, as The Nation magazine, among others, has well documented and CBC Radio’s The Current has noted. I have no idea if this will be found to be true, but based on the record, it is surely not implausible.


----------



## groovetube

WHHAAAAT???? The conservatives and the republicans (GASSSSPPP) connected?

What for the screeches for PROOF.


----------



## BigDL

:yikes: mrjimmy please tread carefully. I got a new ripped for me with the mere use of the word "association." 

Bringing forth evidence of "close ties" between Cons and Republicans, well, I would suggest; run for the storm shelter, safe room or bunker.

Run for the hills, protect yourself and take care during the approaching apocalypse.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What?


Some sort of special language only his twin sister can understand?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> :yikes: mrjimmy please tread carefully. I got a new ripped for me with the mere use of the word "association."
> 
> Bringing forth evidence of "close ties" between Cons and Republicans, well, I would suggest; run for the storm shelter, safe room or bunker.
> 
> Run for the hills, protect yourself and take care during the approaching apocalypse.


Maybe you have a twin sister too. And she's an NDP supporter involved in a major smear campaign, so watch out. 'cause Rush Limbaugh will get you.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Maybe you have a twin sister too. And she's an NDP supporter involved in a major smear campaign, so watch out. 'cause Rush Limbaugh will get you.


What?


----------



## BigDL

Eh, Eh! Is she a sport? A goer augh augh? I bet she is, I bet she is! Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, Say no more, say no more.


----------



## SINC

Good grief, the degradation of this thread is now complete.


----------



## CubaMark

*Jim Hillyer: Pat Martin's Speech On Robocalls And Second World War Veteran Elicits Eye Roll From Tory MP (VIDEO)*



> Jim Hillyer has been caught on camera behaving badly — again.
> 
> The Tory MP for Lethbridge, Alberta was taped rolling his eyes dramatically on Thursday while NDP MP Pat Martin made a speech about a misleading phone call received by 83-year-old Florence Grottenberg of Calgary on the day of the 2011 federal election.





> Martin continued, bringing up Grottenberg's brother who was killed during the Second World War. "Florence Grottenberg's brother laid down his life in World War II to make the world safe for democracy, and it makes me sick that some Conservative fraudster with a speed dialer has tried to cheat her out of her most democratic freedom and right, which is to cast her ballot free of interference in a general election."





> While Martin talks about the veteran, Hillyer can be seen visibly expressing his displeasure.


(HuffingtonPost Canada)


----------



## groovetube

It just doesn't seem to get any better for conservatives in this one does it.

I also wonder that the latest bit on racknine suing the ndp mp, if it gets drawn out for any length of time, would serve to keep it front and center, even if elections Canada and the RCMP wrapped up investigations sooner than later.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> It just doesn't seem to get any better for conservatives in this one does it.
> 
> I also wonder that the latest bit on racknine suing the ndp mp, if it gets drawn out for any length of time, would serve to keep it front and center, even if elections Canada and the RCMP wrapped up investigations sooner than later.


I believe there is a reason this whole mess of a stolen election resonates with so many Canadians. 

It is Our Glorious Leader and his DeceptiCons who have tilled and fertilized the garden plowed the ground and furrowed the rows for the stolen election story, to grow and thrive.

The DeceptiCons pleaded guilty to infractions of the Elections Act, received a $50,000 fine and claimed they won. 

The Decepticons were caught red handed targeting citizens in Mont Royal in Irwin Cotler's riding. Decepticons made misleading phone calls to citizen and playing dirty tricks. 

The Decpeticons were brash enough to describe the dirty tricks as "an expression of free speech."



The Star said:


> OTTAWA—The federal Conservatives have been slammed by the House of Commons Speaker for “reprehensible” tactics to undermine Liberal MP Irwin Cotler.


Canada News: Commons Speaker slams 'reprehensible' politics - thestar.com

The DeceptiCons planted the seed, nurtured the garden and may reap a spoiled harvest. 




I am free to post as I will, I am not here to conform to the will of anyone...well...yeah...the Mayor...sure...the wife...Ok, the wife, but that goes with saying...huh...Magistrate...Magist...right, a Magistrate could...Thread Cop not a chance. That's just who I had in mind, when I indicated, I am not here to conform to the will of bullies. The self appointed and self anointed that seem to have self talk of superiority.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Jim Hillyer: Pat Martin's Speech On Robocalls And Second World War Veteran Elicits Eye Roll From Tory MP (VIDEO)*
> 
> 
> 
> (HuffingtonPost Canada)


This is one of those moments when one wants to yell out "Shame! Shame!"tptptptp


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

I think this particular issue has got the Cons confused and running scared. At first their response seemed reasonable enough, condemning the initial reported fraud and urging all, along with the Opposition, to help the investigators. Then it morphed into full-on hyperbolic attack and complete denial. Then onto trying to link the Liberals to a US company they had nothing to do with - which was quickly debunked. Meanwhile the telemarketing firm they spent millions with is under RCMP investigation and works directly with Republicans in the US. But the stuff coming from Harper was particularly insulting to Canadians.

I watched Question Period a couple of days ago and I couldn't believe the amount of times Harper and various Cons repeated "unsubstantiated smear campaign". Was it dozens of times? Usually at least twice each time they stood up. (If you wanted to get hammered, it would have made an excellent drinking game.) Don't they EVEN TRY to pretend they are speaking their own words, rather than regurgitated daily party catch-phrases.

I was thoroughly insulted by that approach. I reported robocalls both after the 2008 Election to Elections Canada and again to my current MP and to a Post Media reporter last week when the whole issue was raised. I know of a local person here who is beyond reproach and who reported receiving a bogus robocall telling him his poll had changed and would have required leaving his island, taking a 45 minute ferry ride and then a 30 km drive to vote in May 2011. Are we the people who Harper thinks are part of an "unsubstantiated smear campaign" that "came out of nowhere"? What a disgusting insult.

Harper is the one engaging in a smear campaign. He is smearing thousands of people who are justifiably concerned that criminal acts are taking place in our elections, have told their stories of potential fraud and want to see something done about it. But all he wants to do is demonize the complainants and hope to ride it out until other media stories take over the spotlight. 

Harper is not just the leader of the ruling Conservative party -- he is the Prime Minister of Canada and he has a duty that goes beyond partisan politics, that absolutely require him to be working at protecting our electoral system from sleazy crooks.

At first I thought that this highly offensive defence strategy from the Cons might actually work. But given how badly they've handled several recent events with their hyperbolic rhetoric, their lies painting Enbridge pipeline opponents as foreign-funded extremists, their branding of opponents to their lawful access bill as child porn sympathizers and now their slandering of robocall complainants as being part of a sleaze campaign, and then seeing how the public doesn't seem to be buying it, I'm starting to be convinced that the Harper Cons don't really know how to do anything but full-on war. And on the robocall issue, it seems curious that one of their first responses is usually what most would use as their final response when no other message seems to work -- to attack.

As some reporter wrote yesterday, "They seem to be rushing to go out on a limb first and then try to figure out where to go from there." Whether their party or whether isolated supporters of their party are guilty a lot or a little in this scandal, I'm at least really happy to see that Canadians aren't buying Stephen Harper's extremist politics of slander. The Cons responses to this aren't making them look to most Canadains like innocent victims of a smear - nor as responsible stewards of a democracy.


----------



## SINC

The whole thing is disgusting, but let's get real. Just how much affect did it have on the outcome of the election? Elections Canada announced tonight on Global News that they had received 31,000 complaints from Canadians about misleading phone calls. They also announced there were some 15,000,000 votes cast in the last election. That amounts to .002% of Canadians affected by such calls. If every single one of them took the calls advice, (and most saw through the call and voted where they were originally told to cast their ballots), the chances of electing a government due to such calls was nil. While the calls are unlawful and inappropriate, they are simply much ado about nothing.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> While the calls are unlawful and inappropriate, they are simply much ado about nothing.


Since when is unlawful _much ado about about nothing_? Using this logic, Adscam is completely excusable.

Quit playing politics and put your elected officials to task.


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> Since when is unlawful _much ado about about nothing_? Using this logic, Adscam is completely inexcusable.
> 
> Quit playing politics and put your elected officials to task.


If and when it is determined exactly who is responsible for ALL of the calls, is the time for such action. There are too many accusations against more than one party to determine any single blame yet. No proof who orchestrated the calls, no charges laid, investigation continues, pundits ponder. Until such time as the investigation reveals who did what, it is much ado about nothing. That will be the time to put elected officials to task and not a moment sooner.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> If and when it is determined exactly who is responsible for ALL of the calls, is the time for such action. There are too many accusations against more than one party to determine any single blame yet. No proof who orchestrated the calls, no charges laid, investigation continues, pundits ponder. Until such time as the investigation reveals who did what, it is much ado about nothing. That will be the time to put elected officials to task and not a moment sooner.


Playing politics aside, this is obviously a serious matter. It will not be easily glossed over. Will it have long term ramifications? Possibly. Will it begin to erode the confidence of the party faithful? Likely. This is the only real issue. One not to be taken lightly.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> The whole thing is disgusting, but let's get real. Just how much affect did it have on the outcome of the election?


Don - I'm surprised at your lackadaisical view of this... some ridings were very close, and an effective attempt to misdirect voters may well have led to the wrong candidate winning the seat. For example:



> One of the ridings in question was Sydney-Victoria, where the Conservatives invested heavily in the hopes that Cecil Clarke would unseat Liberal incumbent Mark Eyking. Stephen Harper visited the riding twice during the campaign.
> 
> Eyking said Thursday members of his team knew something was wrong on election day when they started getting "disturbing" calls from supporters.





> Eyking ended up edging out Clarke by just 860 votes to hold onto the riding. His team never followed up on the suspicious calls. (Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


This would have, one would expect, a more significant effect if the electoral system was conducted according to proportional representation, where particular seats may not be threatened by conduct such as this, but the overall percentage of votes cast (or not) would affect the party's general voting share.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> The whole thing is disgusting, but let's get real. Just how much affect did it have on the outcome of the election? Elections Canada announced tonight on Global News that they had received 31,000 complaints from Canadians about misleading phone calls. They also announced there were some 15,000,000 votes cast in the last election. That amounts to .002% of Canadians affected by such calls. If every single one of them took the calls advice, (and most saw through the call and voted where they were originally told to cast their ballots), the chances of electing a government due to such calls was nil. While the calls are unlawful and inappropriate, they are simply much ado about nothing.


We don't know a lot of things yet about these calls. We don't know how extensive they were. We may never know a lot about them. I'm not completely confident in Election Canada's ability to deal with the investigation. They had thousands of complaints on election day and the only reason we are talking about this is because a reporter leaked a story about Elections Canada investigating one of the most serious incidents that happened in Guelph -- almost a year after the event.

But if someone tried to subvert democracy and failed, or if these calls affected the outcome in even one riding, this is a very serious matter and a blow to our democracy. It wouldn't be much ado about nothing. And if one of our political parties is involved in this -- it is a major event, not much ado about nothing. It's a crime against the most essential part of our democracy and betrayal of the trust of our citizens.

If one of our political parties or one of their supporters was in involved in plotting a murder or theft, whether they got away with it or not, it wouldn't be much ado about nothing. You could say "well, it's only one person out of 30 million, a tiny percentage" but that would be irrelevant. It would still be a serious crime and a betrayal of our trust.

Edit: I just wanted to add that when a spoofed robo-call came into our home the day before the 2008 election I didn't think it was much ado about nothing. I was sickened and disgusted that some piece of crap thought that they could try and commit fraud in our election. And in this case I don't know if it had an effect, but it very well could have. The election was close and not everyone knew that the candidate the call was trying to tout had actually resigned. He got 3,600 votes, which made no sense and the election was won by 2,500 votes.


----------



## Macfury

It would be my hope that no sitting Prime Minister from any party would be involved with such a matter. Instead, I see some EhMac members amassing bits of circumstantial evidence, circling like a pack of hyenas, and praying that the accusations _might_ be true. Righteous indignation has its place when there is proof, but delighting in the possibility that such a thing _might_ be true is a sad statement.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It would be my hope that no sitting Prime Minister from any party would be involved with such a matter. Instead, I see some EhMac members amassing bits of circumstantial evidence, circling like a pack of hyenas, and praying that the accusations _might_ be true. Righteous indignation has its place when there is proof, but delighting in the possibility that such a thing _might_ be true is a sad statement.


I am sure that King Harpo is quite clever enough to have made sure that none of his servants would have reported any details to him. Almost as sure as I am that he helped create the atmosphere that led to the impersonation of Elections Canada officials. 

Had this occurred on the Cretien or Martin watch, I am certain the Harpo apologists would have been roasting the Liberal equivalent alive.

If it's bad when the other guy does it, it's bad when your guy does it.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> It would be my hope that no sitting Prime Minister from any party would be involved with such a matter. Instead, I see some EhMac members amassing bits of circumstantial evidence, circling like a pack of hyenas, and praying that the accusations _might_ be true. Righteous indignation has its place when there is proof, but delighting in the possibility that such a thing _might_ be true is a sad statement.


That would be my hope as well. I don't have circumstantial evidence in my case, I have _real_ evidence of an attempt at electoral fraud in my riding. I have an .mp3 of the robo-call message and it is fraudulent. Others have recordings, actual evidence, of fraud being committed in other ridings in 2011.

Some of the complaints may be sketchy or not well-documented, some may be repetitive and some may be even fabricated, but there _were_ actual crimes that were committed, that much is clear. Who did it, we don't know.

Besides the partisan to and fro, the Cons hoping the Opposition falls on it's face, the Opposition hoping they can catch the Cons with in a scandal, and the whole politics-as-a-sport thing, there is a real issue that everyone, no matter where they stand should be very concerned about here. 

The fact that our Prime Minister refuses to act like the statesman he should be and rather take up arms in the partisan fight to slander citizens is an insult to those Canadians who are concerned about this crime.


----------



## jimbotelecom

mrjimmy said:


> Hey JNN, have you seen read this one?
> 
> Exactly how dangerous is Stephen Harper? - The Globe and Mail


Yes mrjimmy I did indeed see the article, but chose not to post it given that it seems to deal in fear mongering. I just can't bring myself to stoop so low.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Why are the DeceptiCONS shooting themselves?*

Canada News: Hébert: Tories suffering from disconnect with voters not in power base - thestar.com

M. Hebert lays the blame on Harper.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit it's only 31000 complaints across 40 plus ridings"


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Since when is unlawful _much ado about about nothing_? Using this logic, Adscam is completely inexcusable.
> 
> Quit playing politics and put your elected officials to task.


:clap: Conservatives everywhere are trying to mineralize this as minor. But what they won't see, is this is, a very serious matter, and so far the government's response is a joke.

But boy they're in there like a dirty shirt combing through the evidence before EC or the RCMP gets there.


----------



## mrjimmy

jimbotelecom said:


> Yes mrjimmy I did indeed see the article, but chose not to post it given that it seems to deal in fear mongering. I just can't bring myself to stoop so low.


No fear mongering when it comes to Harper Jimbo, just an endless series of reality checks.


----------



## groovetube

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Evidence is mounting. Not looking good for the DeceptiCONS. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/news/story.html?id=6246270

Anyone notice how tired Harphead looked in the photo ops with Nettenyahoo? Poor control freak isn't getting any sleep. 

More to come.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Prime Minister for Life Harper? A strong and stable government? No need to spend money on a federal electrion in 2015? I like the ring of that robocall.


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing you aren't the only one!


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> We don't know a lot of things yet about these calls. We don't know how extensive they were. We may never know a lot about them. I'm not completely confident in Election Canada's ability to deal with the investigation. They had thousands of complaints on election day and the only reason we are talking about this is because a reporter leaked a story about Elections Canada investigating one of the most serious incidents that happened in Guelph -- almost a year after the event.
> 
> But if someone tried to subvert democracy and failed, or if these calls affected the outcome in even one riding, this is a very serious matter and a blow to our democracy. It wouldn't be much ado about nothing. And if one of our political parties is involved in this -- it is a major event, not much ado about nothing. It's a crime against the most essential part of our democracy and betrayal of the trust of our citizens.
> 
> If one of our political parties or one of their supporters was in involved in plotting a murder or theft, whether they got away with it or not, it wouldn't be much ado about nothing. You could say "well, it's only one person out of 30 million, a tiny percentage" but that would be irrelevant. It would still be a serious crime and a betrayal of our trust.
> 
> Edit: I just wanted to add that when a spoofed robo-call came into our home the day before the 2008 election I didn't think it was much ado about nothing. I was sickened and disgusted that some piece of crap thought that they could try and commit fraud in our election. And in this case I don't know if it had an effect, but it very well could have. The election was close and not everyone knew that the candidate the call was trying to tout had actually resigned. He got 3,600 votes, which made no sense and the election was won by 2,500 votes.





GratuitousApplesauce said:


> That would be my hope as well. I don't have circumstantial evidence in my case, I have _real_ evidence of an attempt at electoral fraud in my riding. I have an .mp3 of the robo-call message and it is fraudulent. Others have recordings, actual evidence, of fraud being committed in other ridings in 2011.
> 
> Some of the complaints may be sketchy or not well-documented, some may be repetitive and some may be even fabricated, but there _were_ actual crimes that were committed, that much is clear. Who did it, we don't know.
> 
> Besides the partisan to and fro, the Cons hoping the Opposition falls on it's face, the Opposition hoping they can catch the Cons with in a scandal, and the whole politics-as-a-sport thing, there is a real issue that everyone, no matter where they stand should be very concerned about here.
> 
> The fact that our Prime Minister refuses to act like the statesman he should be and rather take up arms in the partisan fight to slander citizens is an insult to those Canadians who are concerned about this crime.


Good posts GA.

However, I think the PM's approach to responding to the matter in the House is not as reprehensible or as surprising as you do. The level of vitriol and accusations being directed at the government and the CPC by the Opposition is extreme given that they are making a lot of assumptions and basically saying that the government/CPC is guilty of electoral fraud when in fact the truth of the situation is not yet known.

This is of course not an unexpected strategy, but it does in effect amount to a smear campaign due to the fact that one is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty in this country. 

The Opposition is quite successfully convincing the court of public opinion that the government/CPC is guilty before the truth is known. So I think it is quite reasonable for the PM (especially if he is sincere and being truthful when he says the CPC as a party had nothing to do with the calls) to defend his government and party in his statements.

The fact is the matter is being investigated by the bodies with the mandate to do so, Elections Canada and the RCMP. It is a matter of due process, if that investigation then indicates that a full blown public inquiry is called for then it should be. The Opposition are understandably more interested in a lynching in the court of public opinion before Elections Canada and the RCMP have a chance to do their job.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> We don't know a lot of things yet about these calls. We don't know how extensive they were. We may never know a lot about them.
> 
> But if someone tried to subvert democracy and failed, or if these calls affected the outcome in even one riding, this is a very serious matter and a blow to our democracy. It wouldn't be much ado about nothing.


GA, when I re-read this statement I posted, I can see how you came to the conclusion above:



SINC said:


> While the calls are unlawful and inappropriate, they are simply much ado about nothing.


While I knew what I meant, GA, I did a poor job of communicating, thus your conclusion quoted above. You will note I agree such calls are, "unlawful and inappropriate", but I was not referring to the calls themselves when I made the 'much ado about nothing' comment. Rather I was referring to the accusations, cat-calls, denials and all other associated antics that have been going on both in and out of the house. Until we know exactly what went on, if we ever do as you note, those are the things that I refer to as much ado about nothing.

I hope that clears up my intended meaning.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I'm guessing you aren't the only one!


Who would not want "peace in our time", "a strong economy", "ethical oil", "prosperity for all"???????????


----------



## groovetube

It -is- interesting the note the sudden about face on 'innocent until proven guilty' now that its the cons involved in a possible scandal.

Something that wasn't afforded the liberals during adscam, and certainly, Ralph Goodale faced that one during the election that saw Harper first elected in the beginning.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Something that wasn't afforded the liberals during adscam...


Of course it was, by a large percentage of the population, including me.


----------



## groovetube

No it wasn't, that's complete nonsense. 

I don't think depending on how much traction this scandal du jour has, it will be to the cons either.


----------



## Macfury

It's interesting the the 31,000 complaints were received only after Opposition parties begged people to search their recollections. It reminds me of those sociological experiments in which a group of children are left in a classroom. A man enters and does nothing but sit down for a minute, then leaves. When the children are asked whether they saw a man do any number of things, a large percentage insist they saw just that--and supply supporting detail. If you asked all Canadians if they saw any evidence of UFOs or strange phenomena on the night of the election, you would probably see a large number of people responding just because the question was asked. It will take a lot of work to separate the wheat from the chaff here.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> It's interesting the the 31,000 complaints were received only after Opposition parties begged people to search their recollections. It reminds me of those sociological experiments in which a group of children are left in a classroom. A man enters and does nothing but sit down for a minute, then leaves. When the children are asked whether they saw a man do any number of things, a large percentage insist they saw just that--and supply supporting detail. If you asked all Canadians if they saw any evidence of UFOs or strange phenomena on the night of the election, you would probably see a large number of people responding just because the question was asked. It will take a lot of work to separate the wheat from the chaff here.


This.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It's interesting the the 31,000 complaints were received only after Opposition parties begged people to search their recollections. It reminds me of those sociological experiments in which a group of children are left in a classroom. A man enters and does nothing but sit down for a minute, then leaves. When the children are asked whether they saw a man do any number of things, a large percentage insist they saw just that--and supply supporting detail. If you asked all Canadians if they saw any evidence of UFOs or strange phenomena on the night of the election, you would probably see a large number of people responding just because the question was asked. It will take a lot of work to separate the wheat from the chaff here.


Or they were 31,000 legitimate complaints. Either way, it should be investigated fully. As a Canadian, I find even the idea that this happened to be reprehensible. Putting partisan blinkers on is equally as wrong. Do we really want to end up like the Americans?

Canada News: Robo-calls: Tory MPs used top U.S. Republican firm during May election - thestar.com



> In an interview, Duff Conacher, on the board of Democracy Watch, said American companies shouldn’t be involved in Canadian elections. “It’s legal to engage the services of anyone you want during an election campaign but it’s very disturbing to see the Conservative Party using companies with these kinds of partisan (Republican) ties.”


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Or they were 31,000 legitimate complaints. Either way, it should be investigated fully. As a Canadian, I find even the idea that this happened to be reprehensible. Putting partisan blinkers on is equally as wrong. Do we really want to end up like the Americans?


No. There is zero chance that there are 31,000 legitimate complaints in an open call. Simply misunderstanding the question, partisan responses, false memory and high suggestibility will eliminate a large number of these. Of course it must be investigated, but only by discounting accepted notions of group psychology could we expect 31,000 out of 31,000 legitimate complaints.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> No. There is zero chance that there are 31,000 legitimate complaints in an open call. Simply misunderstanding the question, partisan responses, false memory and high suggestibility will eliminate a large number of these. Of course it must be investigated, but only by discounting accepted notions of group psychology could we expect 31,000 out of 31,000 legitimate complaints.


Hmm, ok then, 30,999.

You are simply arguing for arguments sake at this point. Who really cares. One complaint is as important as 10 and should be investigated. 

It seems as though you are simply trying to diminishing the serious nature of these complaints/ allegations. Perhaps they have already taken these phenomena into account and have reduced the number from 35,000. 

Regardless, someone has been very bad and needs to be dealt with. Lets hope this happens. Hate to live in a country where this is taken as _de rigueur._


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's interesting the the 31,000 complaints were received only after Opposition parties begged people to search their recollections. It reminds me of those sociological experiments in which a group of children are left in a classroom. A man enters and does nothing but sit down for a minute, then leaves. When the children are asked whether they saw a man do any number of things, a large percentage insist they saw just that--and supply supporting detail. If you asked all Canadians if they saw any evidence of UFOs or strange phenomena on the night of the election, you would probably see a large number of people responding just because the question was asked. It will take a lot of work to separate the wheat from the chaff here.


What's more interesting, I think, is despite pleas for the "innocent before proven guilty", that you want to bury tis as, merely a handful of nutbars who, probably see UFOs too.

I agree, to a point that we can't slam them as criminals, not yet, (even though this was common during the liberal rule, just ask Mr. Goodale how that was...). But let's face the truth here. It isn't as if the Harper Cons are a squeaky clean running operation here. They've already been found guilty of breaking election law, and their propensity for fighting dirty is clearly well known. Though their supporters will amost certainly quickly leap to their defence, likely adding a "well the liberals... blah blah' in there too.

It isn't, that it's just 31,000 (so far) that have reported these robo calls, it's the fact it happened. Even more disturbing, is the nature, of this crime, (whomever is responsible...). That seems to escape most who are so quick to defend their party, despite already having been found guilty in election law, and having displayed the same "what... US???" responses and complete cat in a leash cooperation before. It also isn't about whether or not the last election was valid, I want this crime investigated, and the trail followed all the way to the source. Because for this to occur, money, voter lists, and organization. Doesn't exactly sound like a few overzealous operatives to me.

31,000 Canadians seeing a UFO is one thing. 31,000 Canadians (that we know of at this point) reporting a crime, is a totally different animal. And you're comparison to Canadians who see UFOs (if it's indeed that high...) is a very transparent picture of your true wish, that this would just go away. Nothing to see here.

I don't any, of these parties being involved in such scheme. Regardless if it's a party I vote for and want to win.

But now, _once again_... the conversation has been hijacked to be about the actual number, not the serious crime that has been committed.

I heard the lastest talking point being floated is it's election canada's fault....


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Hmm, ok then, 30,999.
> 
> You are simply arguing for arguments sake at this point. Who really cares. *One complaint is as important as 10* and should be investigated.
> 
> It seems as though you are simply trying to diminishing the serious nature of these complaints/ allegations. Perhaps they have already taken these phenomena into account and have reduced the number from 35,000.
> 
> Regardless, someone has been very bad and needs to be dealt with. Lets hope this happens. Hate to live in a country where this is taken as _de rigueur._


Actually no it is not... such a small number would clearly be an anomaly and would suggest no attempt at organized electoral fraud... just sayin'.

I think at this point due to the story being leaked and the significant possibility of "false positives" due to the wide spread, truly wide spread, dissemination of fraud claims of the Opposition, the actual truth as to verifiable numbers of calls will ever be known...


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Actually no it is not... such a small number would clearly be an anomaly and would suggest no attempt at organized electoral fraud... just sayin'.


Figure of speech screature, figure of speech...


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> I believe there is a reason this whole mess of a stolen election resonates with so many Canadians.
> 
> It is Our Glorious Leader and his DeceptiCons who have tilled and fertilized the garden plowed the ground and furrowed the rows for the stolen election story, to grow and thrive.
> 
> The DeceptiCons pleaded guilty to infractions of the Elections Act, received a $50,000 fine and claimed they won.
> 
> The Decepticons were caught red handed targeting citizens in Mont Royal in Irwin Cotler's riding. Decepticons made misleading phone calls to citizen and playing dirty tricks.
> 
> The Decpeticons were brash enough to describe the dirty tricks as "an expression of free speech."
> 
> 
> Canada News: Commons Speaker slams 'reprehensible' politics - thestar.com
> 
> The DeceptiCons planted the seed, nurtured the garden and may reap a spoiled harvest...


Here's the reason the DeceptiCons are having with this issue and also that and with 60% of the voters didn't like the DeceptiCon's messages originally. (Cons forget that little detail in all of their rhetoric.) 

Those may be the reasons for the story having legs.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> What's more interesting, I think, is despite pleas for the "innocent before proven guilty", that you want to bury tis as, merely a handful of nutbars who, probably see UFOs too.
> 
> I agree, to a point that we can't slam them as criminals, not yet, (even though this was common during the liberal rule, just ask Mr. Goodale how that was...). But let's face the truth here. It isn't as if the Harper Cons are a squeaky clean running operation here. *They've already been found guilty of breaking election law, and their propensity for fighting dirty is clearly well known.* Though their supporters will amost certainly quickly leap to their defence, likely adding a "well the liberals... blah blah' in there too.
> 
> It isn't, that it's just 31,000 (so far) that have reported these robo calls, it's the fact it happened. Even more disturbing, is the nature, of this crime, (whomever is responsible...). *That seems to escape most who are so quick to defend their party, despite already having been found guilty in election law, and having displayed the same "what... US???" responses* and complete cat in a leash cooperation before. It also isn't about whether or not the last election was valid, I want this crime investigated, and the trail followed all the way to the source. Because for this to occur, money, voter lists, and organization. Doesn't exactly sound like a few overzealous operatives to me.
> 
> 31,000 Canadians seeing a UFO is one thing. 31,000 Canadians (that we know of at this point) reporting a crime, is a totally different animal. And you're comparison to Canadians who see UFOs (if it's indeed that high...) is a very transparent picture of your true wish, that this would just go away. Nothing to see here.
> 
> I don't any, of these parties being involved in such scheme. Regardless if it's a party I vote for and want to win.
> 
> But now, _once again_... the conversation has been hijacked to be about the actual number, not the serious crime that has been committed.
> 
> I heard the lastest talking point being floated is it's election canada's fault....


The fact is the CPC never denied their actions in the in and out scandal. They admitted them completely, they simply stated that they disagreed with Election Canada as to their interpretation of the Act and asserted that the other parties did exactly the same thing.

In the end Elections Canada's interpretation of the Act was upheld as being correct, but the CPC never denied that they did what they did, they simply asserted it was not illegal.

This is not the case here where they are denying that it was the CPC that had any involvement at a high level as a directive and an attempt to mislead voters.

This is a significant point of difference that seems lost on some.

I don't think anyone is trying to justify the activities thus far identified, what they are doing is extending the benefit of the doubt until the truth is known.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Figure of speech screature, figure of speech...


Fair enough... and why I said "just sayin' to try and indicate I knew where you were coming from as a metaphor but in fact would not be as important/significant.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The fact is the CPC never denied their actions in the in and out scandal. They admitted them completely, they simply stated that they disagreed with Election Canada as to their interpretation of the Act and asserted that the other parties did exactly the same thing.
> 
> In the end Elections Canada's interpretation of the Act was upheld as being correct, but the CPC never denied that they did what they did, they simply asserted it was not illegal.
> 
> This is not the case here where they are denying that it was the CPC that had any involvement at a high level as a directive and an attempt to mislead voters.
> 
> This is a significant point of difference that seems lost on some.
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to justify the activities thus far identified, what they are doing is extending the benefit of the doubt until the truth is known.


oh here we go with the semantics again. Please state where I said otherwise.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh here we go with the semantics again. Please state where I said otherwise.


No semantics, once again a statement of fact which you seem categorically opposed to...

You said they said "What... US???" which they never did, that is where you said otherwise. It was bolded in my post in case you missed it.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Fair enough... and why I said "just sayin' to try and indicate I knew where you were coming from as a metaphor but in fact would not be as important/significant.


What your comment ends up doing is overlooking the message for it's delivery. Not necessarily the best approach for desired and continued participation.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> The fact is the CPC never denied their actions in the in and out scandal. They admitted them completely, they simply stated that they disagreed with Election Canada as to their interpretation of the Act and asserted that the other parties did exactly the same thing.
> 
> In the end Elections Canada's interpretation of the Act was upheld as being correct, but the CPC never denied that they did what they did, they simply asserted it was not illegal.
> 
> This is not the case here where they are denying that it was the CPC that had any involvement at a high level as a directive and an attempt to mislead voters.
> 
> This is a significant point of difference that seems lost on some.
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to justify the activities thus far identified, what they are doing is extending the benefit of the doubt until the truth is known.


I think the problem arises after being fined $50,000 they were not humble but screamed VICTORY.

The messaging I received was* "that's chump change for what we got away with"* hence the DeceptiCons preparing the garden.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No semantics, once again a statement of fact which you seem categorically opposed to...
> 
> You said they said "What... US???" which they never did, that is where you said otherwise. It was bolded in my post in case you missed it.


You're dead wrong, and speaking of argumentative...

The "what... US?" referred to the fact they maintained they did nothing wrong. That's clear.

Now what am I "categorically opposed to"?What fabricated argument are you building here?


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> What your comment ends up doing is overlooking the message for it's delivery. Not necessarily the best approach for desired and continued participation.


I didn't mean it that way so I apologize that my post came across that way to you.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> I didn't mean it that way so I apologize that my post came across that way to you.


Thanks. I appreciate it.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> It's interesting the the 31,000 complaints were received only after Opposition parties begged people to search their recollections. It reminds me of those sociological experiments in which a group of children are left in a classroom. A man enters and does nothing but sit down for a minute, then leaves. When the children are asked whether they saw a man do any number of things, a large percentage insist they saw just that--and supply supporting detail. If you asked all Canadians if they saw any evidence of UFOs or strange phenomena on the night of the election, you would probably see a large number of people responding just because the question was asked. It will take a lot of work to separate the wheat from the chaff here.


actually most people (by nature) won't complain about harassing/false calls during election time, because most people don't care enough to go to the trouble. Add to the fact that we're now almost a year after the fact and even more people's recollection will start to get hazy.

so while i do agree with your point that of the 31,000+ calls some of them may be false positives, in the broader context many more people simply didn't complain to elections canada because they couldn't be bothered, or they (now) don't remember (or both!).


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You're dead wrong, and speaking of argumentative...
> 
> The "what... US?" referred to the fact they maintained they did nothing wrong. *That's clear*.
> 
> *Now what am I "categorically opposed to"?What fabricated argument are you building here?*


No not dead wrong... Just according to you my interpretation of what you were saying was not what you intended to say... I will take you at your word, but it was far from clear to me that what you are now saying you meant to say is what you said initially.

Thank you for the clarification.

Your penchant for taking clearly stated facts and trying to diminish/discredit them by saying it is *only* a matter of semantics... which BTW is at the heart of being able to understand what another person is actually saying and that you seem to think it is possible to formulate a logical argument without semantic clarity.

If we don't have agreed upon meanings for the words we use then it is impossible to have a reasoned and mutually comprehensible discussion/debate.


----------



## groovetube

If it wasn't cear, there's no need for this drama.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> If it wasn't cear, there's no need for this drama.


There is no drama on my part... it seems you are the one who is getting all riled up...


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Thanks. I appreciate it.


And I appreciate your appreciation.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> There is no drama on my part... it seems you are the one who is getting all riled up...


Judging from you jumping all over my post with gusto without understanding what I actually said, well, don't give me this all riled up crap.

Now get off my back.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Judging from you jumping all over my post with gusto without understanding what I actually said, well, don't give me this all riled up crap.
> 
> *Now get off my back.*


Really...? "Pot, meet kettle..."


----------



## BigDL

Seems to me an element is attempting to distract from discussions of Canadian Politics.

If you can't rebut discussion, then attack people directly. 

Conservatives have been overwhelmed by the response of Canadians to the very idea of voter suppression. 

The Conservatives have little experience of being on the receiving end of accusations that are hard to defend against. Made all the harder for them because of ground work laid by the Conservatives themselves.

So what is a supporter to do? Well you can try the talking points of the Government, but those talking points have gone over like a lead ballon. 

Then you can talk about natural justice, that being, innocent until proven guilty. However the Conservatives make dividing talking points of guilty to proven innocent as in the Northern Gateway Pipeline discussion or the introduction of C-30.

The Conservative supporters are frustrated when they treated in a manner similar to how the Conservatives treat everyone else. It seems to the supporters they have only one recourse left. The only recourse left is to act as they did when the Conservatives were in opposition. Blame the people in charge. Ooopps! Can't do that, then attack, attack, attack.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Evan Soloman reported on The House this morning that the complaints have expanded to 45 ridings. 

It's snowballing!


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Evan Soloman reported on The House this morning that the complaints have expanded to 45 ridings.
> 
> It's snowballing!


Anna Maria Tremonte interviewed a candidate who lost by 18 votes in his riding. I can't recall the riding or the party, but his supporters were flooded with calls of getting these robocalls that misdirected them and made it difficult or impossible for them to cast a ballot. I am searching her podcasts for the exact person, but if I were this person I would be calling for a new election. tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

i said they should be investigated. However, I'm not arguing for argument's sake. The number is completely out of context in that the complaints were solicited. A case in point: the notion of the typical white Roswell alien was unknown until it was presented by Betty and Barney Hill and popularized in a 1975 TV movie, _The UFO Incident_. Suddenly, UFO investigators were flooded with calls about identical abductions featuring identical aliens. Likewise, once the text and source of a RoboCall has been publicized, it's pretty easy for others to repeat the same evidence, or to imagine it happened to them.



mrjimmy said:


> Hmm, ok then, 30,999.
> 
> You are simply arguing for arguments sake at this point. Who really cares. One complaint is as important as 10 and should be investigated.
> 
> It seems as though you are simply trying to diminishing the serious nature of these complaints/ allegations. Perhaps they have already taken these phenomena into account and have reduced the number from 35,000.
> 
> Regardless, someone has been very bad and needs to be dealt with. Lets hope this happens. Hate to live in a country where this is taken as _de rigueur._


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> Anna Maria Tremonte interviewed a candidate who lost by 18 votes in his riding. I can't recall the riding or the party, but his supporters were flooded with calls of getting these robocalls that misdirected them and made it difficult or impossible for them to cast a ballot. I am searching her podcasts for the exact person, but if I were this person I would be calling for a new election. tptptptp


I believe this was in Etobicoke centre where Ted Opitz won. Heavy polish demographic in western Toronto.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Wall Street Journal reports CONS admit vote suppression. 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203753704577259561991081038.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


----------



## groovetube

Nothing to see here folks it's just UFOs and crazy people.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Wall Street Journal reports CONS admit vote suppression.
> 
> Canadian Conservatives Acknowledge Vote Suppression in 2011 - WSJ.com


Not quite. They don't "admit" suppression. According to the report they say it occurred in one riding. This is like admitting it's raining out.


----------



## jimbotelecom

And it certainly is raining on the CONS for over a month. More to come.


----------



## groovetube

I just got a few boxes of popcorn.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> GA, when I re-read this statement I posted, I can see how you came to the conclusion above:
> 
> While I knew what I meant, GA, I did a poor job of communicating, thus your conclusion quoted above. You will note I agree such calls are, "unlawful and inappropriate", but I was not referring to the calls themselves when I made the 'much ado about nothing' comment. Rather I was referring to the accusations, cat-calls, denials and all other associated antics that have been going on both in and out of the house. Until we know exactly what went on, if we ever do as you note, those are the things that I refer to as much ado about nothing.
> 
> I hope that clears up my intended meaning.


That does, thanks.

I could do with less antics, entertaining to political junkies as they may be. I'm looking for both government and opposition MPs to drop the rhetoric and deal with what has been uncovered as a serious issue. The opposition should quit with the questions that are versions of "When will the honourable member commit to stop beating his wife" and the government should quit avoiding the legitimate questions and slandering those who ask them. They should show leadership and a serious commitment to getting to the bottom of this.

The presumption of innocence until proven guilty does not mean that citizens or the press should be deaf, blind and mute until the Elections Canada secret investigations are concluded, whenever that may be. If details become known we can comment on them and legitimately ask that they be explained and addressed by our government. And we can call for assurances that this is being properly investigated.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Good posts GA.
> 
> However, I think the PM's approach to responding to the matter in the House is not as reprehensible or as surprising as you do. The level of vitriol and accusations being directed at the government and the CPC by the Opposition is extreme given that they are making a lot of assumptions and basically saying that the government/CPC is guilty of electoral fraud when in fact the truth of the situation is not yet known.
> 
> This is of course not an unexpected strategy, but it does in effect amount to a smear campaign due to the fact that one is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty in this country.
> 
> The Opposition is quite successfully convincing the court of public opinion that the government/CPC is guilty before the truth is known. So I think it is quite reasonable for the PM (especially if he is sincere and being truthful when he says the CPC as a party had nothing to do with the calls) to defend his government and party in his statements.
> 
> The fact is the matter is being investigated by the bodies with the mandate to do so, Elections Canada and the RCMP. It is a matter of due process, if that investigation then indicates that a full blown public inquiry is called for then it should be. The Opposition are understandably more interested in a lynching in the court of public opinion before Elections Canada and the RCMP have a chance to do their job.


I am insulted by Harper's approach of using the "unsubstantiated smear campaign" talking point because he is talking about people who have made legitimate complaints to Elections Canada and who are concerned. When we reported our evidence to Elections Canada we weren't engaging in a smear, we weren't doing it because we wanted to besmirch the Conservative party, we did this because we have reason to believe (with many of us having documented proof) that someone has tried to fraudulently interfere with our electoral process and we felt it was our responsibility to report this.

I understand the sideshow that sometimes goes on in Parliament has more to do with political games and cementing talking points in the media, but the particular approach that the Prime Minister has taken of using untrue slander against not just other "honourable members" but against those in the public who have legitimate questions shows a serious lack of leadership.

Harper and various top ministers in his government have taken that approach on more than one occasion recently. They branded those citizens who chose to register their opposition to the Enbridge pipeline as "foreign-funded extremists". They branded those citizens who chose to oppose their internet surveillance bill as "supporters of child porn" and they've now branded those who question and want answers to the questions around the robocall issue as being part of an "unsubstantiated smear campaign". He is not engaging in rhetorical jousting with simply the Opposition here, he is slandering concerned Canadian citizens.

I've said in my previous reply to SINC that I think the Opposition should also moderate their tone, especially since the scope of this issue appears to be growing. Just because some in the Opposition or in the media are using over-the-top rhetoric and trying to score political points does not mean that the Prime Minister should respond in kind. In fact, given the very serious nature of the crimes in this case, I think he would be better advised to take the high road and assure all of us that the government fully intends to find out who committed these crimes.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Harper and various top ministers in his government have taken that approach on more than one occasion recently. They branded those citizens who chose to register their opposition to the Enbridge pipeline as "foreign-funded extremists". They branded those citizens who chose to oppose their internet surveillance bill as "supporters of child porn" and they've now branded those who question and want answers to the questions around the robocall issue as being part of an "unsubstantiated smear campaign". He is not engaging in rhetorical jousting with simply the Opposition here, he is slandering concerned Canadian citizens.


Don't agree with anthropogenic climate change--you're a "denier." Marginalizing is the tool of the day across the spectrum.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Don't agree with anthropogenic climate change--you're a "denier." Marginalizing is the tool of the day across the spectrum.


Actually for it to be equivalent rhetoric, if it was to come from Harper or the Cons (which would be highly ironic in this case) would be to say "Don't agree with anthropogenic climate change -- you want to murder our children!".

While that kind of rhetoric is everywhere and unavoidable, and is rampant in Parliament, this does not make it OK for the PM of Canada to use it when dealing with a serious issue. And it certainly does not make it OK for him to use it when addressing sincere complainants reporting a crime to a federal agency. 

As I've said several times here, he has a much greater responsibility than being leader of the ruling Conservative Party. He is the Prime Minister of Canada and he should be acting like it, not like some kind of adrenaline-fuelled partisan.

Very serious and troubling crimes have been reported. Show us you are taking this seriously Mr. Harper, don't try and bluster and brush it aside as fictitious smears.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Robocalled? - Your legal rights*

CBC.ca Player


----------



## groovetube

I bet this will ruffle a few feathers...

Canada News: Cohn: Why Ontario won?t apologize to Alberta over the tarsands ? sorry, oilsands - thestar.com



> Confidential Correspondence
> 
> To: Hon. Alison Redford, Premier of Alberta
> 
> From: Hon. Dalton McGuinty, Premier of Ontario
> 
> Dear Alison,
> 
> First, let me say sorry. Not for anything I’ve said or done.
> 
> I merely wanted to apologize in advance — just in case this letter is leaked to the Toronto Star. I can only hope you read it here, first, under my signature and seal, because that newspaper seems to have a pipeline to my confidential in-basket.
> 
> Speaking of pipelines — and your difficulty getting one built in the U.S. to export the bitter fruit of Alberta’s bitumen — you have my sympathies. Come heck or high water, your oilsands are our oilsands, because we’re all in this together in the land of milk and honey.
> 
> But your latest demand — that I as Ontario’s premier prostrate myself before oilsands-rich Alberta by saluting and saying sorry for speaking my mind — is, um, un-Canadian. True, it’s traditional to stoke anti-Ontario resentment ahead of an Alberta election, casting me as one of those ungrateful “Eastern bastards” who deserves to freeze in the dark (sorry about using the b-word, but it’s in quotes). The business press and the tabloids are lapping it up.
> 
> But times have changed. I can’t fathom your demand that we publicly declare fealty to Alberta’s cause in the U.S. You can dress it up as our pan-Canadian duty, but it was seen here as transparently and pointlessly political, not patriotic.
> 
> Trust me, Americans barely notice Canadian prime ministers and ambassadors. They are oblivious to premiers. And they couldn’t care less about an imaginary “united front” among the provinces, as if we had a God-given right to pollute Nebraska’s sensitive ecology.
> 
> In case you hadn’t noticed, your Alberta tarsands — sorry, oilsands — are our collective Canadian bogeyman, akin to Newfoundland’s baby white seals. We are all bearing a cross for you, even if your right-wing media can’t wait to crucify me.
> 
> Goading us won’t get you anywhere. The battle for public opinion can’t be fought in Central Canada, nor will you win with bluster in the U.S. or Europe. Cleaning up your act — by reducing wasteful water inputs and excessive carbon outputs — would convert more hearts and minds abroad.
> 
> On the home front, it hurts when Alberta’s exports drive up our double-edged petrodollar and price our exports out of the market. But when I said precisely that the other day — rebutting your claims that the oilsands have enriched Ontario — I discovered that the truth hurts even more. My polite (if impolitic) answer, at the end of a scrum, merely pointed out that our manufacturing heartland has paid a heavy price in lost jobs. Heard of Caterpillar?
> 
> Even so, I offered a friendly climbdown a couple of days later, admitting that I need to “self-edit” myself a bit when talking to the press (My wife, Terri, always reminds me at the dinner table). I gather, from your reaction on Calgary talk radio, that wasn’t enough for you.
> 
> They call me Premier Dad here, because I lapse into the role of eldest brother in a family of 10. Also when dealing with the other 10 provinces. But instead of lecturing or hectoring you, I’ll make this reciprocal plea:
> 
> When your bitumen belches carbon into the atmosphere, remember that Ontario is rapidly closing all its coal-burning power plants to reduce our pan-Canadian footprint for greenhouse gases. I don’t hear you thanking us for that.
> 
> Alberta owns the resources under its soil. But if this were a truly functional federation, instead of soaking up so much revenue today you’d create a sovereign wealth fund (as other oil-rich countries have) to minimize currency distortions. I don’t hear you talking that up.
> 
> We still can’t get Ottawa to bolster our green and clean energy strategy, while it grants generous tax concessions to Alberta’s dirty oilsands. And I’m still waiting for you to back us on that one.
> 
> As Premier Dad, I’ve always tried to find a balance between truthful and tactful when raising my own kids. Yes, it was uncharacteristically brazen of me to rain on your parade rather than join your crusade. But it was a bit rich of you to not spare a thought for our losses.
> 
> When you feel our pain, we’ll celebrate your gain.
> 
> Yours in Canadian unity,
> 
> Dalton McGuinty


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I am insulted by Harper's approach of using the "unsubstantiated smear campaign" talking point because *he is talking about people who have made legitimate complaints to Elections Canada and who are concerned.* When we reported our evidence to Elections Canada we weren't engaging in a smear, we weren't doing it because we wanted to besmirch the Conservative party, we did this because we have reason to believe (with many of us having documented proof) that someone has tried to fraudulently interfere with our electoral process and we felt it was our responsibility to report this.
> 
> I understand the sideshow that sometimes goes on in Parliament has more to do with political games and cementing talking points in the media, but the particular approach that the Prime Minister has taken of using untrue slander against not just other "honourable members" but against those in the public who have legitimate questions shows a serious lack of leadership.
> 
> Harper and various top ministers in his government have taken that approach on more than one occasion recently. They branded those citizens who chose to register their opposition to the Enbridge pipeline as "foreign-funded extremists". They branded those citizens who chose to oppose their internet surveillance bill as "supporters of child porn" and they've now branded those who question and want answers to the questions around the robocall issue as being part of an "unsubstantiated smear campaign". He is not engaging in rhetorical jousting with simply the Opposition here, he is slandering concerned Canadian citizens.
> 
> I've said in my previous reply to SINC that I think the Opposition should also moderate their tone, especially since the scope of this issue appears to be growing. Just because some in the Opposition or in the media are using over-the-top rhetoric and trying to score political points does not mean that the Prime Minister should respond in kind. In fact, given the very serious nature of the crimes in this case, *I think he would be better advised to take the high road and assure all of us that the government fully intends to find out who committed these crimes.*


I disagree, he is talking about the incessant accusations of the Opposition saying that it had to be a coordinated effort at the highest levels of the party, etc, etc. etc.... that is the smear campaign he is referring to, if you wish to take that personally it is your prerogative.

Whether you like it or not the claims begin made thus far are unsubstantiated to the extent that there is no proof that the calls were orchestrated by the CPC. If and when they are proven to be so, a conciliatory tone to the people of Canada from the PM would most definitely be called for, until then he is not surprisingly defending himself, his government and party from the Opposition's onslaught.

He has, it is just that some people don't like the route, the mandated route, to conduct the investigation, which is that of Elections Canada and the RCMP. You should know full well that calling a public inquiry is putting the cart before the horse until more is known and the bodies charged with conducting (at the very least a preliminary investigation) have done their work.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I bet this will ruffle a few feathers...


What part is supposed to be provocative?


----------



## eMacMan

*Cons leak proposed changes to OAS?*


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> View attachment 23234


I had no idea that these seniors were still laying eggs!


----------



## BigDL

Been around a bit eh, eh! Knew it eh! Say no more, say no more.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Been around a bit eh, eh! Knew it eh! Say no more, say no more.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.





"Say no more... I think you'll never understand..."


----------



## SINC

Repetitive terms meaning nothing, in response to others' posts, usually indicate a lack of anything pertinent to say. :yawn:


----------



## BigDL

Five ohh! Five ohh!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Five ohh! Five ohh!






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Repetitive terms meaning nothing, in response to others' posts, usually indicate a lack of anything pertinent to say. :yawn:


Or indicate a deliberate attempt to harass and stifle the posting of other members with whom you disagree, a childish and immature attempt at best...

But he is free to make a fool of himself in whatever manner he chooses... it is only an online forum after all... 

No real people at the other end... 

RobBigDL don't cha know... When it comes to the posting of other members with whom he has a bone to pick... doesn't matter what they have to say... He's gonna say... "say no more" or some such... 

But he never does have no more to say...

Just continue to harass... Ass, being the salient part of the etymology of the word.


----------



## groovetube

And then there are those who pretend like they aren't guilty of similar things.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> And then there are those who pretend like they aren't guilty of similar things.


What *similar* things would you be referring to? Please specify with links over a continued period of time that reflects what you are talking about/accusing.

In my experience on ehMac BigDL's harassment of MF is unprecedented, at least in terms of means if not intent.

In terms of intent... "Pot, met kettle."

Maybe you can go print out a "Gold Certificate" for yourself saying:

*Groovetube

The defender of all that is right and good on EhMac.*​


> groovetube said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Perhaps you can fire up your printer and print off a big gold certificate, that says, I, Screature of the earth, am right...
Click to expand...


----------



## BigDL

bonus round YES!


----------



## mrjimmy

I think we are all guilty of living in glass houses. Here in this thread anyway.

My question is, why should any of us care about what others are posting? BigDL and JJ have as much right to post and in whatever style they see fit as MF, SINC or screature.

You don't like what they say? Ignore them. Live and let live. 

Lets not lower ourselves down to the level of those we discuss in this thread, shall we?


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> I think we are all guilty of living in glass houses. Here in this thread anyway.
> 
> My question is, why should any of us care about what others are posting? BigDL and JJ have as much right to post and in whatever style they see fit as MF, SINC or screature.
> 
> You don't like what they say? Ignore them. Live and let live.
> 
> Lets not lower ourselves down to the level of those we discuss in this thread, shall we?


Sounds reasonable, mrj. I agree with your suggestion to "live and let live".

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> I think we are all guilty of living in glass houses. Here in this thread anyway.
> 
> My question is, why should any of us care about what others are posting? BigDL and JJ have as much right to post and in whatever style they see fit as MF, SINC or screature.
> 
> You don't like what they say? Ignore them. Live and let live.
> 
> Lets not lower ourselves down to the level of those we discuss in this thread, shall we?


Tue enough and right you are.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> bonus round YES!


Yeah really. I love it when they get totally self righteous when someone suggests perhaps they're just like the rest, right in the mud too.

Show me links! oh my god I never whine about civil discussion only to be anarse myself! Oh no!

Nothing worse than that really. And no screecher, I don't profess to be above it, everyone has their turn it seems. Besides the self admitted troll anyway.


----------



## groovetube

So enough of this holier than thou crap.

This is some har har worthy knee slapping fun.

Animation: What Stephen Harper thinks he does


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


>


:clap:

:lmao: :lmao:


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


I sure would like it if all you "guilty until proven innocent" advocates have to eat humble pie... 

One of the basic tenets of a modern legal system is that one is "innocent until proven guilty"... but for anti-Con supporters it matters not... They can continue to make unproven claims and accusations just so long as "the means justify the ends"... the very thing they purportedly are against.

I guess such high values are only held to be sacrosanct so long as you agree with/support the opposing parties... but only if the opposing parties are either the NDP/Liberals/Green.

Lets get all the Cons, burn them at the stake, they are all the same, they represent only 40% of the population... Lynch 'em all!

As an anglophone living Quebec for most of my life I have regrettably seen this kind of sentiment all too often...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I guess such high values are only held to be sacrosanct so long as you agree with/support the opposing parties...


I'm constantly surprised by the low quality of these gags. Considering almost everyone has a photo editing system, why would anyone produce crap like that book cover? Do a little research and get the imagery, wording and style right.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> I sure would like it if all you "guilty until proven innocent" advocates have to eat humble pie...
> 
> One of the basic tenets of a modern legal system is that one is "innocent until proven guilty"... but for anti-Con supporters it matters not... They can continue to make unproven claims and accusations just so long as "the means justify the ends"... the very thing they purportedly are against.
> 
> I guess such high values are only held to be sacrosanct so long as you agree with/support the opposing parties... but only if the opposing parties are either the NDP/Liberals/Green.
> 
> Lets get all the Cons, burn them at the stake, they are all the same, they represent only 40% of the population... Lynch 'em all!
> 
> As an anglophone living Quebec for most of my life I have regrettably seen this kind of sentiment all too often...


Hmm can't recall a single one of the con types making similar statements during adscam.

Truth is no one will go to jail, no one will be fined. Whatever justice that does happen, will happen via the Peoples Court of the Internet. Probably the real reason the Cons revived that old Liberal abomination, bill C-30. So much easier to intimidate critics if you can figure out who they are.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I have a faint hope that we might get to the bottom of this. 40%? At least 5% of the 39% held their noses in a belief that they were electing competent managers. 

The Cons seem to be willing to concede that there is a problem in Guelph and at least one young CON is paying the price. 

Too early to tell. Time to let experienced civil servants do their thing - hopefully unobstructed.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I sure would like it if all you "guilty until proven innocent" advocates have to eat humble pie...
> 
> One of the basic tenets of a modern legal system is that one is "innocent until proven guilty"... but for anti-Con supporters it matters not... They can continue to make unproven claims and accusations just so long as "the means justify the ends"... the very thing they purportedly are against.
> 
> I guess such high values are only held to be sacrosanct so long as you agree with/support the opposing parties... but only if the opposing parties are either the NDP/Liberals/Green.
> 
> Lets get all the Cons, burn them at the stake, they are all the same, they represent only 40% of the population... Lynch 'em all!
> 
> As an anglophone living Quebec for most of my life I have regrettably seen this kind of sentiment all too often...


As was mentioned many times, the innocent before proven guilty didn't matter for anti-liberals either. Cons everywhere were already screaming for all the liberals to be jailed before the inquiry finished.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> I have a faint hope that we might get to the bottom of this. 40%? At least 5% of the 39% held their noses in a belief that they were electing competent managers.
> 
> The Cons seem to be willing to concede that there is a problem in Guelph and at least one young CON is paying the price.
> 
> Too early to tell. Time to let experienced civil servants do their thing - hopefully unobstructed.


the current poll says 35%. The election the hit just over 39%, but after more of their missteps I doubt they'll hold onto 35% either.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> As was mentioned many times, the innocent before proven guilty didn't matter for anti-liberals either. Cons everywhere were already screaming for all the liberals to be jailed before the inquiry finished.


So you are taking from a play book that you object to... makes sense.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> I have a faint hope that we might get to the bottom of this. 40%? *At least 5% of the 39% held their noses in a belief that they were electing competent managers. *
> 
> The Cons seem to be willing to concede that there is a problem in Guelph and at least one young CON is paying the price.
> 
> Too early to tell. Time to let experienced civil servants do their thing - hopefully unobstructed.


Yeah, cause you polled them with your sophisticated news gathering and polling network you have established...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> the current poll says 35%. The election the hit just over 39%, but after more of their missteps I doubt they'll hold onto 35% either.


Uh no... The results on election night...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> So you are taking from a play book that you object to... makes sense.


Just pointing out the hypocrisy. I'm enjoying the hilarity of watching a party that promised honesty and transparency. Having a good chuckle where I can. 



screature said:


> Uh no... The results on election night...


yes, that -is-... what I said.


> the current poll says 35%. The election the hit just over 39%,...


no need to get angry and argumentative. Stand down.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> I disagree, he is talking about the incessant accusations of the Opposition saying that it had to be a coordinated effort at the highest levels of the party, etc, etc. etc.... that is the smear campaign he is referring to, if you wish to take that personally it is your prerogative.
> 
> Whether you like it or not the claims begin made thus far are unsubstantiated to the extent that there is no proof that the calls were orchestrated by the CPC. If and when they are proven to be so, a conciliatory tone to the people of Canada from the PM would most definitely be called for, until then he is not surprisingly defending himself, his government and party from the Opposition's onslaught.
> 
> He has, it is just that some people don't like the route, the mandated route, to conduct the investigation, which is that of Elections Canada and the RCMP. You should know full well that calling a public inquiry is putting the cart before the horse until more is known and the bodies charged with conducting (at the very least a preliminary investigation) have done their work.


Harper and the top Conservative Ministers and point men have been seeking to spin both the Opposition accusations of Con involvement and all the voter complaints as part of the "unsubstantiated smear campaign". They are working to conflate the two as is clear from just a sample of statements by the Prime Minister in the House.



> Stephen Harper in the House, March 1st: The fact of the matter is there is an investigation in one particular riding that has been going on for some time with the assistance of the Conservative Party. Beyond that, these complaints had their origin nine months after the election, which is obviously a deliberate smear tactic by a party that lost the election.
> 
> Stephen Harper in the House March 1st: The fact that there were not many complaints during the election—next to none, in fact—and that all of this is happening nine months later suggests that this is a smear campaign by a party that lost the election.
> 
> Stephen Harper in the House February 29th: As for the Liberal Party, it is clear that these complaints, coming nine months after the election, are nothing but another smear campaign.
> 
> Stephen Harper in the House February 29th: It is interesting that the NDP says that it gave information to Elections Canada, because Elections Canada said that there were almost no complaints during the election. These are just stories made up recently by a party that lost the election.


Elections Canada released a statement on March 2nd


> • The Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections confirms that it is investigating complaints received regarding robocalls placed at the 41st general election in 2011.
> 
> • Elections Canada has received a high volume of complaints in recent days as a result of MPs and political parties calling on the public to send information to the agency. More than 31,000 contacts have been initiated with Elections Canada by Canadians. Elections Canada is reviewing these and will take action as appropriate.
> 
> • The Commissioner of Canada Elections has the authority, during periods of high volume, to contract additional resources or call upon other law enforcement agencies, such as the RCMP, to lend assistance and expertise.


Elections Canada is taking all of these complaints seriously, but the Prime Minister prefers to use terminology like "stories made up recently" and "smear campaign". Where is the Prime Minister's outrage, not at those who bring up the issue, but at the unknown criminals who attempted to perpetrate fraud? Where is his dedication to get to the bottom of the affair. It appears that he is proposing no action on this issue, just smirking taunts to the Opposition -- "where's the beef?"

Harper could easily make the distinction between what he sees as unwarranted direct accusations with no evidence by others and fight against those, and the valid complaints by citizens, many of which are actual documented evidence of attempts at electoral fraud and express serious concern about those. But instead he's abdicating his responsibility as Prime Minister to be aggressively defending Canadian democracy and doing everything in his power to spin, deflect, deny and attempt to score partisan points in this matter.

Even if I wasn't insulted by his slander against the complainants, of which I am one, I would be insulted by his lack of action on an issue that should be of great concern to those that value free and fair elections.

A sensible approach: Gus Van Harten: We must take the robo-calls scandal seriously | The Province


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Where is the Prime Minister's outrage, not at those who bring up the issue, but at the unknown criminals who attempted to perpetrate fraud? Where is his dedication to get to the bottom of the affair. It appears that he is proposing no action on this issue, just smirking taunts to the Opposition -- "where's the beef?"


Seriously, 'sauce, if you just told the country that most of the complaints are the result of a smear campaign, why would you act outraged over unknown criminals? You would make a lousy pol.


----------



## groovetube

I think the point was he should have took the position that he wants to get to the bottom of this instead.

Difficult to grok I suspect.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think the point was he should have took the position that he wants to get to the bottom of this instead.
> 
> Difficult to grok I suspect.


Don't play dumb.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Don't play dumb.


Indeed, it's "should have _taken_" the position.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Seriously, 'sauce, if you just told the country that most of the complaints are the result of a smear campaign, why would you act outraged over unknown criminals? You would make a lousy pol.


Lousy pol? I take that as a compliment.

Groovetube is right, that was my point. Even Harper isn't denying that _nothing_ happened here (although I wouldn't put it past Del Mastro to try and assert this - he's tried out every other flavour of talking point). But he is seeking to minimize real complaints made to Elections Canada and suggest that they were the result of a Liberal smear.

Harper should look like someone who wants to get to the bottom of this, but as Rae said today, he's not looking like someone who's got nothing to hide. I guess he sees this stonewalling approach as a winning strategy. It looks to me like an abdication of responsibility.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Indeed, it's "should have _taken_" the position.


He don't grok so good.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Indeed, it's "should have _taken_" the position.


Yes. The iPhone makes my grammar skills even worse than they already are.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> But he is seeking to minimize real complaints made to Elections Canada and suggest that they were the result of a Liberal smear.


Again, if he says it's a Liberal smear campaign, he should only be looking at getting the Liberals behind it.


----------



## groovetube

why?


----------



## groovetube

Tories demand Liberals release call records – but refuse to follow suit - The Globe and Mail

ha ha. Yet another faceplant by the conservatives.

After trying to blame the liberals (that one's getting reeeallly old guys...) and demanding the liberals release their documentation, they suddenly back down after the liberals agree to do so.

It just gets better by the day.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> After trying to blame the liberals (that one's getting reeeallly old guys...) and demanding the liberals release their documentation, they suddenly back down after the liberals agree to do so.


.


> Mr. Del Mastro clarified later in the day that the Conservatives will give Elections Canada any documents the agency requests.


----------



## groovetube

oh I'm sure he did after realizing how brainless that looks.

He actually said:


> But when asked later by reporters if the Conservatives were prepared to release their own records, Mr. Del Mastro said: “No, because obviously our party is not behind the calls. We know that.


Then to say:


> Mr. Del Mastro clarified later in the day that the Conservatives will give Elections Canada any documents the agency requests.


Well of course they would. They have to.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> .





> Mr. Del Mastro clarified later in the day that the Conservatives will give Elections Canada any documents the agency requests.


Although, this is where he stood in the afternoon:



> But when asked later by reporters if the Conservatives were prepared to release their own records, Mr. Del Mastro said: “No, because obviously our party is not behind the calls. We know that. We believe the Liberal Party has in fact made these allegations and they’ve made these allegations knowing full well that they’ve paid these companies millions of dollars to makes calls to hundreds of thousands of households across the country.”


One of the most laughable, absurd things I've heard coming from a politician in awhile.

I guess Steve applied the electrodes at break and sent him back in 'on message'. Or perhaps he was on message already. 

If they are innocent, they sure aren't acting like it.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Although, this is where he stood n the afternoon:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most laughable, absurd thing I've heard coming from a politician in awhile.
> 
> I guess Steve applied the electrodes at break and sent him back in 'on message'. Or perhaps he was on message already.
> 
> *If they are innocent, they sure aren't acting like it.*


That's the (un)funny part.


----------



## mrjimmy

Canada News: TTC: Tim Hudak urges Dalton McGuinty to overrule Toronto council on subways - thestar.com

Oh wait, just when I said Del Mastro's comments were one of the most laughable things I've heard, Hudak goes and trumps it!

Democratic process, shmemocratic process.


----------



## groovetube

the funny part about these conservatives, who keep railing about the 'left wing councillors', is that these councillors were democratically elected in the last election.

It seems they only like democracy when they're elected. Then they'll start trumpeting stats and numbers of support.


----------



## i-rui

Robocall company payments not declared by the Tories, can't explain why | News | National Post

more funny stuff in guelph


----------



## BigDL

Gee! I hate when that $h!t happens.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Big Dean-o DM said:


> Mr. Del Mastro said: “No, because obviously our party is not behind the calls. We know that.


Obviously ... Dean-o ... obviously.


----------



## BigDL

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Obviously ... Dean-o ... obviously.


<SARCASM>Must be true because he said.</SARCASM> 


If repeated often enough, no proof is required.


<SARCASM>That's the rule.</SARCASM>


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> <SARCASM>Must be true because he said.</SARCASM>
> 
> 
> If repeated often enough, no proof is required.
> 
> 
> <SARCASM>That's the rule.</SARCASM>


BigDL, this makes perfect sense to me as well as you ................... if we were living in Orwell's "1984" Oceania. Sounds like some sort of "doublethink" from the Ministry of Truth. Where is Winston Smith when we need him?????


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, this makes perfect sense to me as well as you ................... if we were living in Orwell's "1984" Oceania. Sounds like some sort of "doublethink" from the Ministry of Truth. Where is Winston Smith when we need him?????


Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.

The Conservative party of Canada *obviously* had nothing to do with this and is doubleplusgood.


----------



## Dr.G.

Just received a robocall from the Ministry of Truth in Ottawa. It went on to say: "There are three stages in your reintegration into Canadian society . . . There is learning, there is understanding, and there is acceptance of the Harper Government of Canada's assertion of reality." It ended with what I thought was a chuckle. I figured it was just a joke and ......................... wait, there is a pounding at my front door ...............................


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
> Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
> Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
> Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
> Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
> Winston Smith is part of an _*unsubstantiated smear campaign*_.
> 
> The Conservative party of Canada *obviously* had nothing to do with this and is doubleplusgood.


"Under the spreading chestnut tree
I sold you and you sold me—"


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Dr.G. said:


> "Under the spreading chestnut tree
> I sold you and you sold me—"


“How many fingers, Dr.G.?”
“Four.”
The needle went up to sixty. “How many fingers, Dr.G.?”...
“Five! Five! Fivel”


----------



## Macfury

Do it to Dr. G!!!!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

One of the "sore losers" from 2008


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> One of the "sore losers" from 2008


I read it through, Her complaint was investigated and dismissed. What more does she want? 

Sore loser.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I read it through, Her complaint was investigated and dismissed. What more does she want?
> 
> Sore loser.


It's the consistency that I love about this place.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - What are you hiding from Harper?*

Elections Canada denied new powers by Tories, MPs say - Politics - CBC News

Why would the CONS duck on this request if they are totally innocent?

Book em Dano.

Brought to you by JNN - "chit, it's fun to have the CONS on the run"


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Do it to Dr. G!!!!


NO!!!! NO!!!!!!! Do it to Julia!!!!!!!! XX)


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Elections Canada denied new powers by Tories, MPs say - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Why would the CONS duck on this request if they are totally innocent?
> 
> Book em Dano.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "chit, it's fun to have the CONS on the run"


I am pleased this issue is now on the pundit's radar and sounds like the DeceptiCons have another kick at the can on Thursday, with an Opposition Motion put forth by the NDP.


----------



## i-rui

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> One of the "sore losers" from 2008


great link.

it's pretty clear from reading the article that elections canada is in over it's head on this and we need a full public inquiry.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> It's the consistency that I love about this place.


you can set your clock to it!


----------



## BigDL

Watch out! They'll soon be trying to clean your clock, for pointing out the obvious.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> you can set your clock to it!





BigDL said:


> Watch out! They'll soon be trying to clean your clock, for pointing out the obvious.


Once again a couple of completely pointless posts other than to satisfy the juvenile egos involved.

On topic and much more relevent, as this mess grows, it becomes harder to understand how Conservatives can justify this circus they continue to create.


----------



## groovetube

only pointless because we're sooww-shulists!

The others ones are totally relevant mahn.


----------



## SINC

^

There's one more.


----------



## groovetube

^ and another.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> I read it through, Her complaint was investigated and dismissed. What more does she want?
> 
> Sore loser.


I have several concerns that I think Penn might share. Being one of the people who received the fraudulent spoofed robo-call in Saanich-Gulf Islands and one of the people who complained to Elections Canada and spoke with one of their investigators I am also concerned about what happened during this investigation and what it might say about the current investigations.

1) The investigator I spoke with told me flat out they knew the call was "spoofed" -- meaning the caller ID was faked to look like it was coming from an NDP organizer. He also told me they didn't have any way of tracing it. I was skeptical of that, it sounded to me like they weren't prepared to put in the work to do so. Given that they were able to trace the 2011 Guelph robocall both to the calling company and then to a particular phone tells me that they must have had some options that they didn't explore. But that's impossible to know because EC provided no report on their investigations or any details whatsoever.

2) The official conclusion is that they could not find anyone whose vote had been swayed and therefore they couldn't determine that the Canada Elections Act had been broken. This is ridiculous. There is no way they could ever prove that someone's vote had been swayed, we use a secret ballot. There would have to go with someone's word that this happened. I spoke with someone who when they received the call was surprised to hear that the NDP candidate was still in the race, although he had no plan on voting for him, but he was fooled. The thing is that the people who complained, like me, knew that as soon as they got the call it was attempted fraud and reported it to EC.

There was an attempt to commit fraud, and there was a fraudulent misrepresentation which specifically goes against the Canada Elections Act. Again, we don't have the benefit of EC's thinking on this because there was no detailed report on why they made the decision as they did. I have read legal opinion, which I can't find at the moment, that the attempt was enough to be considered a breach of the act.

3) In addition to not making any detailed report to Penn's campaign or any of the other complainants, such as myself, Elections Canada in their final report on the 2008 federal election did not make one single mention of this incident. It caused much concern at the time, was briefly at least a national news story, yet EC didn't consider this important enough to mention. Misrepresentation on the phone was not unheard of at the time, but EC didn't suggest any measures or action towards making sure they could curb this kind of activity in the next election. Sure enough, as many predicted in 2008, fraudulent phone calls became an even bigger factor in 2011.

4) As many are mentioning, EC's secrecy around what they do or have done does not inspire great confidence. And the fact that a Conservative-dominated committee blocked increased powers of investigation to EC is also a concern. The situation we are in now is one where we just have to have blind faith that EC is doing its job, is truly impartial, and has enough resources and skill to do that job properly.

I know many Conservatives and some of their supporters want this issue to disappear because their party is in the hot seat now, but if there are concerns that our electoral system can possibly be abused, it can affect all parties at some point. We should never stand for that and we and our leaders should be demanding that any concerns be fully addressed.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I have several concerns that I think Penn might share. Being one of the people who received the fraudulent spoofed robo-call in Saanich-Gulf Islands and one of the people who complained to Elections Canada and spoke with one of their investigators I am also concerned about what happened during this investigation and what it might say about the current investigations.
> 
> 1) The investigator I spoke with told me flat out they knew the call was "spoofed" -- meaning the caller ID was faked to look like it was coming from an NDP organizer. He also told me they didn't have any way of tracing it. I was skeptical of that, it sounded to me like they weren't prepared to put in the work to do so. Given that they were able to trace the 2011 Guelph robocall both to the calling company and then to a particular phone tells me that they must have had some options that they didn't explore. But that's impossible to know because EC provided no report on their investigations or any details whatsoever.
> 
> 2) The official conclusion is that they could not find anyone whose vote had been swayed and therefore they couldn't determine that the Canada Elections Act had been broken. This is ridiculous. There is no way they could ever prove that someone's vote had been swayed, we use a secret ballot. There would have to go with someone's word that this happened. I spoke with someone who when they received the call was surprised to hear that the NDP candidate was still in the race, although he had no plan on voting for him, but he was fooled. The thing is that the people who complained, like me, knew that as soon as they got the call it was attempted fraud and reported it to EC.
> 
> There was an attempt to commit fraud, and there was a fraudulent misrepresentation which specifically goes against the Canada Elections Act. Again, we don't have the benefit of EC's thinking on this because there was no detailed report on why they made the decision as they did. I have read legal opinion, which I can't find at the moment, that the attempt was enough to be considered a breach of the act.
> 
> 3) In addition to not making any detailed report to Penn's campaign or any of the other complainants, such as myself, Elections Canada in their final report on the 2008 federal election did not make one single mention of this incident. It caused much concern at the time, was briefly at least a national news story, yet EC didn't consider this important enough to mention. Misrepresentation on the phone was not unheard of at the time, but EC didn't suggest any measures or action towards making sure they could curb this kind of activity in the next election. Sure enough, as many predicted in 2008, fraudulent phone calls became an even bigger factor in 2011.
> 
> 4) As many are mentioning, EC's secrecy around what they do or have done does not inspire great confidence. And the fact that a Conservative-dominated committee blocked increased powers of investigation to EC is also a concern. The situation we are in now is one where we just have to have blind faith that EC is doing its job, is truly impartial, and has enough resources and skill to do that job properly.
> 
> *I know many Conservatives and some of their supporters want this issue to disappear because their party is in the hot seat now, but if there are concerns that our electoral system can possibly be abused, it can affect all parties at some point. We should never stand for that and we and our leaders should be demanding that any concerns be fully addressed.*


Well said. I can't for be sure the top brass had anything to do with this. But having watched the furious deflections, first blaming a 23 year old kid (as if...) then blaming the liberals for it (and/or the ndp) then it's simply a ndp smear campaign, the back-pedalling by demanding the liberals call records, only to play footsie as to whether or not they would release theirs (since OBVIOUSLY we know the conservatives are innocent...), this has become a incredible side show, a total comedy of errors.

Based on their performance, one can only really conclude they are worried what could be found, and are stalling and doing the usual find it first before the investigators do. That just doesn't look good.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> ^ and another.


Look groove, I am not going to get into anything with you in this thread again, but consider this:



SINC said:


> On topic and much more relevent, as this mess grows, it becomes harder to understand how Conservatives can justify this circus they continue to create.


Given that post above demonstrates a significant change from my normal responses and an expression of concern about Conservatives, screams to me that neither you or the guy from down east who thinks he's a big deal even read this thread.

Instead you both leave me with no conclusion that neither of you are here for any other reason than to dump on conservatives or anyone you think might be one.

It shows without question that you have no comprehension of what goes on here and you hang out here to toss crap at anyone who might disagree with either of your views.

Try reading and understanding before you toss a pail of crap on people. It is painfully obvious to me that is all both of you are here to do.

Once again I state that I am fast losing confidence in the Conservatives and find them harder to believe day by day.

Can you at least refrain from tossing yet another barb and acknowledging a shift on my part?

Didn't think so . . .

Cue barb in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...


----------



## groovetube

SInc a handful of us were tossing around some fun comments for a laugh. It happens. 

Chill.

You are experiencing what I did with the liberals. It wasn't fun.


----------



## SINC

Thought so, no comprehension on your part whatsever. Carry on. Pathetic as it is.


----------



## groovetube

what? There's no barbs sinc If you are questioning our government, then you are well ahead of the game. Just as when people sent the liberals packing.

What's increasingly sad, is the alternatives often aren't a whole lot better. I would like to think so. As anyone does.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

groovetube said:


> Well said. I can't for be sure the top brass had anything to do with this. But having watched the furious deflections, first blaming a 23 year old kid (as if...) then blaming the liberals for it (and/or the ndp) then it's simply a ndp smear campaign, the back-pedalling by demanding the liberals call records, only to play footsie as to whether or not they would release theirs (since OBVIOUSLY we know the conservatives are innocent...), this has become a incredible side show, a total comedy of errors.
> 
> Based on their performance, one can only really conclude they are worried what could be found, and are stalling and doing the usual find it first before the investigators do. That just doesn't look good.


You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.

This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.


----------



## eMacMan

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.
> 
> This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.


Since Libs and Cons both dance to the same puppet master (see bills C-11 and C30) the "integrity" of the Canadian Parliamentary system remains as intended, a non-existent illusion.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.
> 
> This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.


I couldn't agree more GA. I have been a Conservative supporter for many years, but this one sits wrong with me. Even the Alberta Conservatives have lost my support. Deregulated power and gas, screwed up health care and loss of any real concern for the average Albertan is leading me further right. In Alberta, that translates to the Wildrose. I've about had enough here and maybe even in Ottawa, although in fairness, the jury is still out until we find out just what went on.


----------



## groovetube

I liked the idea of totally banning robocalls for elections. There needs to be strict rules in place for everyone, before this becomes a real problem.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I liked the idea of totally banning robocalls for elections. There needs to be strict rules in place for everyone, before this becomes a real problem.


How could banning robocalls stop an illegal robocall on the eve of an election. How could it stop live callers from misleading voters?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Once again a couple of completely pointless posts other than to satisfy the juvenile egos involved.
> 
> On topic and much more relevent, as this mess grows, it becomes harder to understand how Conservatives can justify this circus they continue to create.





SINC said:


> ^
> 
> There's one more.





SINC said:


> Look groove, I am not going to get into anything with you in this thread again, but consider this:
> 
> 
> 
> Given that post above demonstrates a significant change from my normal responses and an expression of concern about Conservatives, screams to me that neither you or the guy from down east who thinks he's a big deal even read this thread.
> 
> Instead you both leave me with no conclusion that neither of you are here for any other reason than to dump on conservatives or anyone you think might be one.
> 
> It shows without question that you have no comprehension of what goes on here and you hang out here to toss crap at anyone who might disagree with either of your views.
> 
> Try reading and understanding before you toss a pail of crap on people. It is painfully obvious to me that is all both of you are here to do.
> 
> Once again I state that I am fast losing confidence in the Conservatives and find them harder to believe day by day.
> 
> Can you at least refrain from tossing yet another barb and acknowledging a shift on my part?
> 
> Didn't think so . . .
> 
> Cue barb in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...





SINC said:


> Thought so, no comprehension on your part whatsever. Carry on. Pathetic as it is.





BigDL said:


> Watch out! They'll soon be trying to clean your clock, for pointing out the obvious.


...and all I did was to be Captain Obvious. I should have said "Popo coming."


----------



## SINC

^

Ah yes, another compelling contribution to the discussion. When you have nothing to say, quote others and ridicule.

Now, back to the real discussion please.


----------



## BigDL

No! I tire of the Thread Police, how's that for straight up.


----------



## SINC

Not trying to be a thread cop at all. Just pointing our how you and others simply cannot resist dumping dopey comments here. Try joining the discussion in a meaningful way and gain some respect. Until them, stick with your current methods and scream thread cops. 

Why not put up an even dumber sig while you're at it? :baby:


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> I am pleased this issue is now on the pundit's radar and sounds like the DeceptiCons have another kick at the can on Thursday, with an Opposition Motion put forth by the NDP.


Funny about the selective vision.

Well how do you feel about this issue of the Conservative Government using their majority in Committee to vote down the Chief Electoral Officer's desire to have investigative powers which compels political parties to produce documents.

The issue will be before Parliament on Thursday, any predictions on how the Government will react?

:baby: Thread Cop! Thread Cop!


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Funny about the selective vision.
> 
> Well how do you feel about this issue of the Conservative Government using their majority in Committee to vote down the Chief Electoral Officer's desire to have investigative powers which compels political parties to produce documents.
> 
> The issue will be before Parliament on Thursday, any predictions on how the Government will react?
> 
> :baby: Thread Cop! Thread Cop!


Sigh, can you read? Did you miss this:



SINC said:


> I couldn't agree more GA. I have been a Conservative supporter for many years, but this one sits wrong with me. Even the Alberta Conservatives have lost my support. Deregulated power and gas, screwed up health care and loss of any real concern for the average Albertan is leading me further right. In Alberta, that translates to the Wildrose. I've about had enough here and maybe even in Ottawa, although in fairness, the jury is still out until we find out just what went on.


Ah, I thought so.

Oh, try making that sig a bit bigger will you? It hardly matches your level of . . . well, I think that's obvious.


----------



## Macfury

SINC, you have the patience of a saint.


----------



## SINC

Thanks MF, we just finished hosting the Special Olympics in town this past weekend and I learned much about patience with people.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCON - support the troops but cut Vet funds - #harpergovernment*

Veterans riled after motion to halt cuts defeated

Who voted for these numbskulls?

Brought to you by JNN - "We need to uphold our dignity for 4 more years, chit"


----------



## BigDL

I should think this act of betrayal shall not be forgotten soon.



Ottawa Citizen said:


> "There's so many guys that have died in the last conflict for this government, and the government has more or less spit in the veterans' faces," veterans advocate Dan Slack said following the vote.
> 
> Dozens of veterans representing every major conflict Canada has participated in since the Second World War packed the House of Commons galleries Tuesday night to watch the vote. Some were very aged, some came in wheelchairs or on crutches, but all proudly displayed their medals.
> 
> A collective groan rose as Blaney stood to oppose the motion, as opposition MPs shouted "shame, shame."
> 
> "What we've seen is the true colours of the Conservative party," veteran Mike Blais said. "It tells veterans across this nation we have to stand a lot stronger, a lot more united because if we don't, they'll walk all over us, cut our benefits down to nothing and abandon us."
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Veterans riled after motion to halt cuts defeated


Talk about an act of voter suppression by a political party. An act that is legal, head strong and will pay it forward for a very long time.


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.
> 
> This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.


Now, this is a posting which makes sense. :clap::clap::clap:

This is how I feel as well. Regardless of party, do NOT mess with our rights to casting a free vote. This goes against everything that I studied when I became a citizen way back when.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Now, this is a posting which makes sense. :clap::clap::clap:
> 
> This is how I feel as well. Regardless of party, do NOT mess with our rights to casting a free vote. This goes against everything that I studied when I became a citizen way back when.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I also don't believe that those sons of bitches have the right to take my money whenever they decide they have something they want to spend it on.


----------



## groovetube

hic'!


----------



## BigDL

*DeceptiCons Senators trying to Change the Channel in the H of C?*

Maybe Finley is uncomfortable will all these discussions of Election Fraud in the House of Commons these days and wants to change the channel back to the Northern Gateway Project.



CBCNews said:


> "It should never be considered a charitable act to attack Canada's oilsands," said Senator Doug Finley in his speech as part of an inquiry into foreign foundations providing money to Canadian charities.
> 
> The inquiry was launched last week by Conservative Senator Nicole Eaton and is essentially a take note debate — a series of speeches by Conservative senators who are raising questions about how U.S. foundations are funnelling money into Canadian charities.
> 
> The Senate is focussing particularly on environmental charities, claim these charities use foreign money to protest everything from fish farming to expansion of the oilsands industry.


Hopefully this post will be, sufficiently on topic, to pass muster. One never knows for sure.

GateWay Pipeline Part Deux?


----------



## Macfury

Personally, I don't believe it matters which country the money funding environmental charities is coming from. If the environmental hearings are becoming repetitive, then streamline them. The source of the money is irrelevant.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I also don't believe that those sons of bitches have the right to take my money whenever they decide they have something they want to spend it on.


Regardless of your beliefs, the government *does* have the right to tax citizens. If you don't want them to have that right, give up your citizenship and move to another country. There must be countries that have tax policies more to your liking?

Alternatively, you can contribute to efforts to change the tax policies of the Canadian government, but that is a slow process and one that will require compromise, because Canada is a democracy, and the government must represent all of the citizens, not just MacFury.

But at any rate, where ever you go, the government will always have the right to take your money wether you believe it or not.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Regardless of your beliefs, the government *does* have the right to tax citizens. If you don't want them to have that right, give up your citizenship and move to another country. There must be countries that have tax policies more to your liking?
> 
> Alternatively, you can contribute to efforts to change the tax policies of the Canadian government, but that is a slow process and one that will require compromise, because Canada is a democracy, and the government must represent all of the citizens, not just MacFury.
> 
> But at any rate, where ever you go, the government will always have the right to take your money wether you believe it or not.


I'm not going to be constrained by your hidebound view of the world bryanc. I have contributed to efforts to tear down the tax base in Canada and have been pleased with the results already.


----------



## eMacMan

Unlike our neighbours to the South, MF can move to whatever country he likes, and will have him. He does not need to renounce his citizenship as Canada does not tax its citizens who live and work abroad. 

Were he an American the only way to escape the tentacles of the IRS is to renounce citizenship, after proving all taxes for the previous ten years have been paid. I believe there is now a healthy fee attached to that procedure.


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> Unlike our neighbours to the South, MF can move to whatever country he likes, and will have him. He does not need to renounce his citizenship as Canada does not tax its citizens who live and work abroad.


Good point. But the fact that the Canadian Government chooses not to tax it's citizens who live an work abroad does not mean that it does not have the _right_ to do so. The only way MF can have his heart's desire - freedom from the right of government's to take his money - would be to live somewhere with no government. Maybe he should be trying to find his own private planet?


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Good point. But the fact that the Canadian Government chooses not to tax it's citizens who live an work abroad does not mean that it does not have the _right_ to do so. The only way MF can have his heart's desire - freedom from the right of government's to take his money - would be to live somewhere with no government. Maybe he should be trying to find his own private planet?


Or he can try to take over Sealand.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Or he can try to take over Sealand.


Maybe he could live on an iceberg in the Antarctic. That might change his views on the importance of GHG emissions as well...


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Good point. But the fact that the Canadian Government chooses not to tax it's citizens who live an work abroad does not mean that it does not have the _right_ to do so. The only way MF can have his heart's desire - freedom from the right of government's to take his money - would be to live somewhere with no government. Maybe he should be trying to find his own private planet?


bryanc, your so-called logic provides an embarrassment of riches for mockery. A few days ago you were declaring that capitalism and the banking system were "artificial contructs" that needed to be overhauled or abandoned as we saw fit. Involuntary taxation. No, that one is carved in stone. Take a hard look at what you're saying, man. These "logical" pronouncements are completely subservient to your left-of-centre preferences.


----------



## screature

*Taxpayers group laments Duceppe’s lifetime of wasteful service*

Taxpayers group laments Duceppe’s lifetime of wasteful service 
G&M



> Former Bloc Québécois leader Gilles Duceppe has been awarded the top prize by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, which annually hands out gold pigs to government officials it says have spent the most public dollars on the least worthwhile things.
> 
> Dressed in a tux and accompanied by a pig-costumed mascot, CTF federal director Gregory Thomas pronounced Mr. Duceppe the 2012 lifetime achievement winner at the group’s annual Teddy Awards.
> 
> The award is going “to the recipient of a $2.9-million parliamentary pension, the gift of a grateful nation for a lifetime of devoted service towards breaking it up,” Mr. Thomas told a news conference Wednesday.
> 
> It is going, he said, to “a man who put his party’s historian on the taxpayers payroll to write a book – it’s out now, it’s in print, still no sign of our share of the royalties – the man who put his party’s executive director on the parliamentary payroll even though taxpayers subsidized his party, the Bloc Québécois, to the tune of $23.5-million.” ...


A well deserved Award. :clap:


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> bryanc, your so-called logic provides an embarrassment of riches for mockery. A few days ago you were declaring that capitalism and the banking system were "artificial contructs" that needed to be overhauled or abandoned as we saw fit. Involuntary taxation. No, that one is carved in stone. Take a hard look at what you're saying, man. These "logical" pronouncements are completely subservient to your left-of-centre preferences.


Ignoring the personal jabs, this may have the basis of an interesting discussion. I completely agree that the economy is an artificial construct that we can and should overhaul to better serve humanity. And I see your point that government and taxation systems are similarly artificial constructs that could be similarly overhauled. My point is that no government exists that does not tax its citizens. I certainly like the idea of a government that taxes corporations more than private citizens (which used to be the case in Canada, but the tax burden has shifted further from corporate to personal income consistently since the 1960's). But I'm not aware of one that exists. Please explain how you imagine a government that does not engage in involuntary taxation functioning?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Ignoring the personal jabs, this may have the basis of an interesting discussion. I completely agree that the economy is an artificial construct that we can and should overhaul to better serve humanity. And I see your point that government and taxation systems are similarly artificial constructs that could be similarly overhauled. My point is that no government exists that does not tax its citizens. I certainly like the idea of a government that taxes corporations more than private citizens (which used to be the case in Canada, but the tax burden has shifted further from corporate to personal income consistently since the 1960's). But I'm not aware of one that exists. Please explain how you imagine a government that does not engage in involuntary taxation functioning?


No economy exists that does not have banks. No economy exists that does not have currency. No economy exists where the laws of supply and demand have been suspended.

At this point, we can easily decide which government functions to support or not support through direct donation. The government should make its case about which initiatives it wants support for and people would simply support them directly. Failing intiatives would obviously be defunded entirely. 

I'm not so naive to believe that funding for a basic set of government functions--defense, judiciary and a few others--are avoidable. You could have a defense department, but the government would need to appeal directly to the public to fund something like the Afghanistan action.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I have contributed to efforts to tear down the tax base in Canada and have been pleased with the results already.


A celebrity in our midsts! Although, a comment like this has little value without a detailed explanation.

I am very interested to see how our very own MF is contributing to change this great country of ours!


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> A celebrity in our midsts! Although, a comment like this has little value without a detailed explanation.
> 
> I am very interested to see how our very own MF is contributing to change this great country of ours!


The comment was intended only to express my personal contentment with my efforts, not to spark intrigue in the nature of my celebrity.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> No economy exists that does not have banks. No economy exists that does not have currency. No economy exists where the laws of supply and demand have been suspended.
> 
> At this point, we can easily decide which government functions to support or not support through direct donation. The government should make its case about which initiatives it wants support for and people would simply support them directly. Failing intiatives would obviously be defunded entirely.
> 
> I'm not so naive to believe that funding for a basic set of government functions--defense, judiciary and a few others--are avoidable. You could have a defense department, but the government would need to appeal directly to the public to fund something like the Afghanistan action.


On all of this we are in complete agreement. How does this avoid the problem of involuntary taxation?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> On all of this we are in complete agreement. How does this avoid the problem of involuntary taxation?


It would not entirely avoid it initially, because there would still need to be enough of a structure in place to allow people to choose which initiatives to fund voluntarily. The ultimate question is how far you could reduce involuntary taxation and how quickly you could proceed toward the goal of zero. I suspect it would wind up much like the frog jumping halfway out of the well with each leap--you could get closer and closer without eliminating it entirely. At a certain point, the involuntary portion would be so low that it would bother only a very few people.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> allow people to choose which initiatives to fund voluntarily


This, I think is the crux of your utopian argument. First, I should say that I really like the idea, and I'd love to live in a world where there was no taxation and I could voluntarily support whatever social initiatives I thought were worthwhile. However, I also think it is impossibly naive to think that anywhere near enough money to build roads, railways, hospitals, schools, police departments, national defence systems etc., let alone staff and maintain them, could be provided by voluntary donations from civic-minded citizens.

So while I support the idea of reduced taxation in principle, I don't think the elimination of taxation is remotely realistic.

{edit to add: I do think something like allowing tax payers to indicated how they would like to have some portion of their tax allocated could work... for example, if your tax bill is $100, $50 goes into general revenue, and you as the citizen are permitted to indicated how you would like the remaining $50 allocated. That might work. Of course then there'd be some government programs that would get no funding, but that'd be an indication of the lack of citizen support for those programs, so that'd be okay}.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> This, I think is the crux of your utopian argument. First, I should say that I really like the idea, and I'd love to live in a world where there was no taxation and I could voluntarily support whatever social initiatives I thought were worthwhile. However, I also think it is impossibly naive to think that anywhere near enough money to build roads, railways, hospitals, schools, police departments, national defence systems etc., let alone staff and maintain them, could be provided by voluntary donations from civic-minded citizens.
> 
> So while I support the idea of reduced taxation in principle, I don't think the elimination of taxation is remotely realistic.


This is why Libertarians are far too idealistic for my taste.


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> A celebrity in our midsts! Although, a comment like this has little value without a detailed explanation.
> 
> I am very interested to see how our very own MF is contributing to change this great country of ours!


My father, God rest his soul, had an expression for the self congratulator, he would say "self praise is a very poor recommendation."


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I do think something like allowing tax payers to indicated how they would like to have some portion of their tax allocated could work... for example, if your tax bill is $100, $50 goes into general revenue, and you as the citizen are permitted to indicated how you would like the remaining $50 allocated. That might work. Of course then there'd be some government programs that would get no funding, but that'd be an indication of the lack of citizen support for those programs, so that'd be okay}.


I realize that my idealistic notions won't ever be realized wholesale, but I think things could be improved by moving closer to them--as with your suggestion above.

Great examples: If you want the country to have F-35s, then you devote your taxes to that initiative. If you want Toronto to have subways, instead of LRTs then the mayor sets a budget and asks citizens to commit to the subway proposal. If it fails to attract enough financial support, it's off the table.

Much of our democracy is predicated on the idea that we need elected representatives to make decisions for us because it is impossible to know the will of the people at any given time and the people themselves lived too far away from the decision-makers to make themselves heard. The Internet has changed all that.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The comment was intended only to express my personal contentment with my efforts, not to spark intrigue in the nature of my celebrity.


But the very nature of _expressing_ your contentment, rather than being, well, _content_, begs the question:

What have you done to tear down the tax base in Canada?


----------



## Macfury

I don't believe it begs any question. It just seems to pique your interest. 

Such is the nature of celebrity.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I don't believe it begs any question. It just seems to pique your interest.
> 
> Such is the nature of celebrity.


Nice dodge!


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Nice dodge!


Actually it was pretty good...


----------



## i-rui

March 5: Letters to the editor - The Globe and Mail



> In January, 2010, my UVic inbox had an e-mail invite from a democracy centre to attend a campaign school. Intrigued, I signed up for the three-day event.
> 
> Topics covered included voter identification. Discussion ensued about suppression techniques. Instructors explained voter suppression tactics were borrowed from those used by the U.S. Republican Party. Many kinds of suppression calls were canvassed. Another instructor gave detailed explanations of how robo-calls worked, techniques for recording messages, plus costs involved. He distributed his business card upon request.
> 
> Instructors made it clear that robo-calling and voter suppression were an acceptable and normal part of winning political campaigns. With election ethics like this, a more compelling case for changing to a system of proportional representation where each and every vote counts is hard to imagine.
> 
> John Fryer, adjunct professor, School of Public Administration, University of Victoria


more in depth about the seminar and those involved here :

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/po...nside-conservatives’-voter-suppression-school


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Actually it was pretty good...


That's why I gave him 'props' as the kids say. Still doesn't change the fact a statement was made that couldn't be substantiated. If you're content, be content. If you are boastful, start 'splainin'.

It is, after all one of the reasons we are here, no?


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> March 5: Letters to the editor - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> more in depth about the seminar and those involved here :
> 
> http://www.vancouverobserver.com/po...nside-conservatives’-voter-suppression-school


This whole issue only gets curiouser and curiouser, i-rui thanks for the link to, the Vancouver Observer article is quite enlightening. :clap:


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> I couldn't agree more GA. I have been a Conservative supporter for many years, but this one sits wrong with me. Even the Alberta Conservatives have lost my support. Deregulated power and gas, screwed up health care and loss of any real concern for the average Albertan is leading me further right. In Alberta, that translates to the Wildrose. I've about had enough here and maybe even in Ottawa, although in fairness, the jury is still out until we find out just what went on.


I think it is the way of all politics and eventually all parties once they attain power, worsened by a politically disengaged and cynical voting public. I think what happens is the people within all parties that I call the degenerate power whores, who are often very useful to parties during elections and political fighting between elections, almost always start to become the ones driving policy. Without others who are in government to actually govern holding them in check, they eventually cause something underhanded to come out as scandal or some other black eye to the government. These types hold politics, power and winning as supreme and when a government starts to look like they are made up of only those people, support for that government wanes.

I think I've been where you're at now, at least regarding a provincial government that I generally supported. I watched the NDP government in BC crash and burn in the late-'90s, because they relied too much on these same types. It was interesting to see that those very same people from the NDP backrooms were the ones who joined with other power-mongers on the right and fought against electoral reform during the referendums in BC. This was one of the reasons why I supported electoral reform - if the degenerate power whores from all sides were against it, there had to be something good about it.

And there was, in my opinion. Anything that takes power away from vested interests and put it in the hands of voters, threatens the backroom control the power-mongers thrive on. The reason we see so much voter disengagement from politics is because people see government as controlled by corrupt insiders, and the backrooms in all parties are quite happy for people to keep thinking that way. It's a chicken and egg thing.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> How could banning robocalls stop an illegal robocall on the eve of an election. How could it stop live callers from misleading voters?


It wouldn't, but if this practice was made illegal, and this change was properly promoted, it would be clear to voters that anything that comes as an automated call should not be believed. Just like how most people now know if they get an email offering millions from a Nigerian prince, they can ignore that email. Not that a small percentage don't still get caught, but vast majority know better.

But I think there needs to be far more done in this area. I read a story recently that talked about how using telemarketing services has mostly replaced the banks of volunteers working the phones that campaigns used to rely on during elections. I think in addition to banning robo-calling, all calling made by political parties needs to be strictly regulated, with strict mandates for record-keeping of calls and records kept for Elections Canada review.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> I also don't believe that those sons of bitches have the right to take my money whenever they decide they have something they want to spend it on.


Late to the discussion here, but I think if the sons of bitches can mess with our democracy and can get away with committing crimes to gain office, what they do with your tax money or how much they can get their hands on would only be one of your potential concerns. If our electoral system and democracy can be compromised by fraud, that is the primary concern.


----------



## eMacMan

gratuitousapplesauce said:


> it wouldn't, but if this practice was made illegal, and this change was properly promoted, it would be clear to voters that anything that comes as an automated call should not be believed. Just like how most people now know if they get an email offering millions from a nigerian prince, they can ignore that email. Not that a small percentage don't still get caught, but vast majority know better.
> 
> But i think there needs to be far more done in this area. I read a story recently that talked about how using telemarketing services has mostly replaced the banks of volunteers working the phones that campaigns used to rely on during elections. I think in addition to banning robo-calling, all calling made by political parties needs to be strictly regulated, with strict mandates for record-keeping of calls and records kept for elections canada review.


+1


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Sonal said:


> Or he can try to take over Sealand.


I read that the Ontario government is jettisoning Ontario Place. So maybe MF can buy it cheap on auction and set up the Libertarian Republic of Macfuryland on the site. He can turn the footbridge over Lakeshore into a drawbridge and hold his utopian libertarian council meetings inside the Cinesphere. Within a short time the blessed Invisible Hand of the Marketplace will ensure that the GDP of the new LRM will be greater than all of Toronto.

It will become a shining beacon of hope to the whole world. "Imagine there's no taxes ..." beejacon


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

81% of Canadians want to see an independent investigation of the Robocall affair according to a poll.

Most Canadians Think Robocalls Were Used Broadly in Last Election | Angus Reid Public Opinion


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I read that the Ontario government is jettisoning Ontario Place. So maybe MF can buy it cheap on auction and set up the Libertarian Republic of Macfuryland on the site. He can turn the footbridge over Lakeshore into a drawbridge and hold his utopian libertarian council meetings inside the Cinesphere. Within a short time the blessed Invisible Hand of the Marketplace will ensure that the GDP of the new LRM will be greater than all of Toronto.
> 
> It will become a shining beacon of hope to the whole world. "Imagine there's no taxes ..." beejacon


I would move to MacfuryLand where there are no taxes and individual rights and liberty are protected for one and all.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> ...and individual rights and liberty are protected for one and all.


Are protected by whom and at what cost... (cue sinister organ music)


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Dr.G. said:


> I would move to MacfuryLand where there are no taxes and individual rights and liberty are protected for one and all.


Every citizen of Macfuryland would be the 1%.


----------



## BigDL

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I read that the Ontario government is jettisoning Ontario Place. So maybe MF can buy it cheap on auction and set up the Libertarian Republic of Macfuryland on the site. He can turn the footbridge over Lakeshore into a drawbridge and hold his utopian libertarian council meetings inside the Cinesphere. Within a short time the blessed Invisible Hand of the Marketplace will ensure that the GDP of the new LRM will be greater than all of Toronto.
> 
> It will become a shining beacon of hope to the whole world. "Imagine there's no taxes ..." beejacon


The only way to have any Libertarians gather and pass resolution, would be if the Libertarians stayed in their individual rooms to vote on the propositions they debated by themselves while remaining in their rooms.

They may get along well enough in a bar or restaurant as long as their wasn't any gratuities required.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

mrjimmy said:


> Are protected by whom and at what cost... (cue sinister organ music)


Oh, Ye, of little faith. By the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace (blessed be its name), of course.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Late to the discussion here,* but I think if the sons of bitches can mess with our democracy and can get away with committing crimes to gain office*, what they do with your tax money or how much they can get their hands on would only be one of your potential concerns. If our electoral system and democracy can be compromised by fraud, that is the primary concern.


Getting a little more... well... shall we say "decided" in your position are we GA..? The evidence hasn't changed... it seems your tone has...

Seems MF has "riled" you up... all the while the "sons of bitches" he is referring to are very general indeed while it seems yours are very specific...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Getting a little more... well... shall we say "decided" in your position are we GA..? The evidence hasn't changed... it seems your tone has...
> 
> Seems MF has "riled" you up... all the while the "sons of bitches" he is referring to are very general indeed while it seems yours are very specific...


You're reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. I didn't accuse your party of choice. In the context where I first used "sons of bitches" that MF then subsequently quoted I specifically avoided any reference to party. If you look back on the whole conversation you'll see that I was speaking in general terms.

Once again, to clarify and explain for you: I don't know who committed the crimes that are currently under investigation. I don't know if every one of the reported incidents are even crimes or not, but I certainly would like to see them investigated.

I am riled up that someone would attempt to commit fraud in this way. if there is a danger that someone could win an election by using these kinds of tactics then I am even more riled up. If it's the result of co-ordinated efforts from one of our political parties than I am even further riled up. No matter which party or party supporter may have been involved.

Not sure why you would keep seeking to ascribe some meaning to what I post that I don't put in there. I have the ability to be critical of Conservatives and Conservative policies in general, as well as their reaction to this issue, without making unsupported assumptions about who did what. If you can show where I've made such an assumption, I'll gladly recant it.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Are protected by whom and at what cost... (cue sinister organ music)


I have ADT (Attack Dachshund Territory). Thus, they are my protection ......... at minimal cost. In that I am also an American, I claim my 2nd Amendment rights under the US Constitution --"In MacfuryLand, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Being a Canadian citizen as well, I will give up my Canadian Charter of Rights section on the principles of fundamental justice, which, here in Canada, are specific legal principles that command "significant societal consensus" as "fundamental to the way in which the legal system ought fairly to operate." In MacfuryLand, we do as we want in our quest of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

All is groovy in MacfuryLand. Laugh if you will, but it makes sense to me.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

https://twitter.com/#!/rickmercer/statuses/177161781477781504


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> https://twitter.com/#!/rickmercer/statuses/177161781477781504


I saw that yesterday on twitter. The Russians have far fewer people who see UFOs I guess.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> You're reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. I didn't accuse your party of choice. In the context where I first used "sons of bitches" that MF then subsequently quoted I specifically avoided any reference to party. If you look back on the whole conversation you'll see that I was speaking in general terms.
> 
> Once again, to clarify and explain for you: I don't know who committed the crimes that are currently under investigation. I don't know if every one of the reported incidents are even crimes or not, but I certainly would like to see them investigated.
> 
> I am riled up that someone would attempt to commit fraud in this way. if there is a danger that someone could win an election by using these kinds of tactics then I am even more riled up. If it's the result of co-ordinated efforts from one of our political parties than I am even further riled up. No matter which party or party supporter may have been involved.
> 
> Not sure why you would keep seeking to ascribe some meaning to what I post that I don't put in there. I have the ability to be critical of Conservatives and Conservative policies in general, as well as their reaction to this issue, without making unsupported assumptions about who did what. If you can show where I've made such an assumption, I'll gladly recant it.


MF was referring to the government in general any government... it certainly seemed your "son's of bitches" was speaking specifically to this government as they are the only one's being accused of electoral fraud by the Opposition...

It was pretty easy to "read" into what you were saying, I'll take you at your word that this is not what you were implying.


----------



## kps

I was driving up north today to my second residence and I'm listening to newstalk 1010 when they interview a Swedish parliamentarian who's part of a contingent who came to Canada to learn about how we reduced taxes....LOL. Imagine that! Socialist Sweden courting the Harper government to learn how to reduce personal and corporate taxation and to talk about free trade with the EU. Iceland first, now Sweden ...I guess Harper doesn't look that bad to the rest of the world after all. 

I'd tell them to stick it until they start buying our seal products and "dirty" oil again. :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

kps said:


> I was driving up north today to my second residence and I'm listening to newstalk 1010 when they interview a Swedish parliamentarian who's part of a contingent who came to Canada to learn about how we reduced taxes....LOL.


You didn't happen to catch which political party that fellow belonged to, did you? Wouldn't happen to be with the Christian Democrats...?


----------



## kps

CubaMark said:


> You didn't happen to catch which political party that fellow belonged to, did you? Wouldn't happen to be with the Christian Democrats...?


No, but his name was Von Sydow...a relation to Max Von Sydow. Check the newstalk1010.com site under Jim Richards show, there might be more info.


----------



## BigDL

CM proceed with care. Please!

I'm not sure that visiting a talk radio internet site is sufficient to cause damage but I'm pretty sure there have been research and academic studies that have indicated increased listening to talk radio having adverse effects.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> CM proceed with care. Please!
> 
> I'm not sure that visiting a talk radio internet site is sufficient to cause damage but *I'm pretty sure there have been research and academic studies that have indicated increased listening to talk radio having adverse effects*.


As there is visiting a certain thread here on ehMac...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> As there is visiting a certain thread here on ehMac...


Heaven help people exposing themselves to a broad range of information on the radio. Stick to _The Tyee_ or you could become mentally ill!


----------



## BigDL

Follow me, been around a bit? Know what I mean?
Say no more, say no more, say no more, Pearly! 
Say no more, say no more. Eh! Eh!


----------



## SINC

Such a sad exhibition here. A troubled person? I feel badly, but no one appears to be willing to help with or prevent more random babble.


----------



## groovetube

it's just a mocking response to the random babble.


----------



## BigDL

> Such a sad exhibition here. A troubled person? I feel badly, but no one appears to be willing to help with or prevent more random babble.


might help OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM... ...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...OOOOOOMMMM...


----------



## BigDL

Ahhh! JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! Disappear.



CBCNews said:


> Canada's economy unexpectedly lost 2,800 jobs in February, leaving the unemployment rate little changed at 7.4 per cent.
> 
> A consensus of economic forecasts had predicted overall growth of at least 15,000 new jobs in the month, with the jobless rate staying steady at 7.6 per cent.
> 
> The job market seemed to be working for older job-hunters, but less so for younger ones. Among people 55 and over, employment rose by 24,000, mainly among men, Statistics Canada said. "Over the past 12 months, employment for this age group has grown 4.0 per cent, the highest rate of growth among all demographic groups."


Corporate Tax cuts are working as expected. DeceptiCons' Action Plan Full Tilt.

Higher Unemployment in February


----------



## Macfury

The reduction in jobs is in large part due to scaling back of public sector workers. This is good news, not bad.


----------



## BigDL

Eh squire, know what ya mean, eh, 'nough said eh.


----------



## groovetube

the defence is useless without facts and figures.

How many public service jobs lost in feb vs jobs created from all those handy corp tax cuts.


----------



## Macfury

Canada 2,800 Jobs Cut in February, Unemployment Rate Slips to 7.4% - Forex Analysis, Currency Forecast, FX Trading Signal - Action Forex



> The split between the public and private sectors showed that public-sector employment fell by 13,400 with a smaller 1,700 dip in private employment.


----------



## groovetube

so the big corp tax cut job creation thingy is going well then eh!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> so the big corp tax cut job creation thingy is going well then eh!


Yes.


----------



## groovetube

I see no evidence to support this.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I see no evidence to support this.


I know you don't. But people like screature and SINC understand what is happening and I'm content that they see it. 

Look, there's an apple in your cup!


----------



## groovetube

Sorry not good enough.

You'll have to explain that I'm afraid.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Sorry not good enough.
> 
> You'll have to explain that I'm afraid.


Don't have time for lessons in basic economics, 'groove. Believe what you want--it's all the same to me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - Asbestos is a no go Harper*

Seems even Harper and Charest can't save Canada’s deadly asbestos exports - The Globe and Mail

Brought to you by JNN - "quality posts since 2011"


----------



## BigDL

Ex-executive Conservatives can't get answers. Even they have to go to Elections Canada also



CBCNews said:


> Three former members of the Conservative riding association in Vaughan, Ont., are asking Elections Canada to investigate the campaign's finances.
> 
> In sworn affidavits, Richard Lorello, Tracey Kent and Carrie Liddy allege possible irregularities in Julian Fantino's 2010 byelection and 2011 election campaigns.


Election Secrets that even Conservatives can't get straight answers

It's only getting worster than worst.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Don't have time for lessons in basic economics, 'groove. Believe what you want--it's all the same to me.


Sweeping statements without anything to back it up.

No need for an economics lesson just some facts (without spin preferred thx).

Or I'll have to assume its incorrect.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Or I'll have to assume its incorrect.


Good. Makes no difference to me.


----------



## SINC

Hmmm, seems more than Conservatives are involved:

Liberals also targeted Guelph with robocalls - Canada - CBC News


----------



## i-rui

i think every party uses robocalls. that's not the issue. the issue is pretending to be elections canada or a rival party and suppressing votes.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i think every party uses robocalls. that's not the issue. the issue is pretending to be elections canada or a rival party and suppressing votes.


The issue in this case is that the calls did not identify the sponsor.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> The issue in this case is that the calls did not identify the sponsor.


Not to mention contravening Election Canada rules of course.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The issue in this case is that the calls did not identify the sponsor.


well it's an issue, but not *THE* issue as it relates to the scandal that has been unfolding for the last few weeks.

Elections canada also doesn't want political parties calling *anyone* about polling station location changes (even legitimate ones), and yet the conservatives still knowingly placed those calls.

So while these cases may be breaking election canada guidelines, they're not really the same thing as the fraud that has been uncovered in guelph and alleged in ridings across the country.


----------



## Ottawaman

Robo calls are not the issue (although I find them distasteful). Vote suppression is the issue. I wish the media could make the distinction.


----------



## BigDL

:clap: The Liberal did wrong therefore the Cons are absolved of any malfeasance.

Repeat often! Drink with warm water. Repeat often! Stand on your head. Repeat often!

Repeat often, no further proof is required, repeat often and it must be true.


----------



## Aurora

With all that repetition, I have to believe you.


----------



## Ottawaman

Robocalls: Older voters targeted by election day phone calls, Elections Canada believes



> Automated phone calls that directed people to the wrong polling stations in the last federal election may have overwhelmingly targeted older voters, the Toronto Star has learned.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)
(Related: Burma's Aung San Suu Kyi offered honourary Canadian citizenship by John Baird )


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> Robo calls are not the issue (although I find them distasteful). Vote suppression is the issue. I wish the media could make the distinction.


they won't get it OM. They're desperate. The wascally wiberals did it toooooo!

No they didn't. But if they broke a rule, they should get whacked for it.


----------



## groovetube

check this out.


----------



## BigDL

All coincidence, no relationship to anything, anytime, anyplace, anyhow, anywhere anywhat anywhen anywho. 

Just so you know it's all coincidence, no relationship to anything, anytime, anyplace, anyhow, anywhere anywhat anywhen anywho. 

A reminder it's all coincidence, no relationship to anything, anytime, anyplace, anyhow, anywhere anywhat anywhen anywho.

If there is any doubt, it's all coincidence, no relationship to anything, anytime, anyplace, anyhow, anywhere anywhat anywhen anywho.

It must be ˆnot true or at least a coincidence with no relationship to anything, anytime, anyplace, anyhow, anywhere, anywhat, anywhen, anywho, because I read it many times.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, these postings are actually making me feel sorry for you. What could possibly be going on in your life to make you post like this?


----------



## SINC

I have to agree MF. Anyone who shows such erratic repetitive behaviour may certainly have issues and should consider seeking help.


----------



## groovetube

It's just a repeat of some of things I've seen posted here.


----------



## BigDL

Posting at Ehmac was recommended to me.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> check this out.


So what is this suppose to prove??? He is Canada working from Fantino's campaign office, clearly it has nothing to do with Front Porch Strategies and their servers, it in no way disproves what was stated about what services Front Porch Strategies provided to the campaigns... talk about grasping at straws.

And BTW, to the Blogger, do you know how many Canadians went down to the US to work on Obama's campaign??? Hmmm...? Plenty, as was highlighted in a CBC Radio piece during the last US Federal election. It is common practice for those who are politically active to volunteer across the border at election time... both ways...

For example...

Canadians for Obama


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It is common practice for those who are politically active to volunteer across the border at election time... both ways...


Who needs context?


----------



## i-rui

context matters, absolutely.

when a political party is paying a company hundreds of thousands of dollars for it's services, is it really called "volunteering" when the president of said company mans the phone lines for a campaign?

isn't that just semantics?


----------



## groovetube

lol


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> So what is this suppose to prove??? He is Canada working from Fantino's campaign office, clearly it has nothing to do with Front Porch Strategies and their servers, it in no way disproves what was stated about what services Front Porch Strategies provided to the campaigns... talk about grasping at straws.
> 
> And BTW, to the Blogger, do you know how many Canadians went down to the US to work on Obama's campaign??? Hmmm...? Plenty, as was highlighted in a CBC Radio piece during the last US Federal election. It is common practice for those who are politically active to volunteer across the border at election time... both ways...
> 
> For example...
> 
> Canadians for Obama


Uhhh, read the article once again. You completely missed the point of it. This diatribe about out of country people working on a campaign in of itself, is nothing but a red herring.

And if you wish to question the blogger, I highly encourage you to engage the blogger directly on the comment section, but first let me get some popcorn. I'll enjoy that.


----------



## jimbotelecom

From the flip flop department - CONS losing their direction under HARPER -

Coyne: Where did conservatism go?

Brought to you by JNN - "bringing you the best news on CON inconsistencies since 2011"


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> From the flip flop department - CONS losing their direction under HARPER -
> 
> Coyne: Where did conservatism go?
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "bringing you the best news on CON inconsistencies since 2011"


Now, this is something that PM Harper should read and consider, since Andrew Coyne is the voice for rational conservatism in this country.

"What I believe in are a set of principles having to do with the freedom of the individual, the usefulness but not infallibility of markets, and the legitimate but limited role of the state. There are, in brief, a few things we need government to do, based on well-established criteria on which there is a high degree of expert consensus. The task is simply to get government to stick to those things, rather than waste scarce resources on things that could be done as well or better by other means: that is, government should only do what only government can do.

As I say, these ideas are not novel, or controversial. Indeed, you would find support for them, to a greater or lesser degree, across the political spectrum.

Nevertheless, there was a party, once, that believed in these things, to a somewhat greater extent than the other parties. That party called itself conservative, whether with a small or a large C, so I suppose you could call the things it believed conservatism. But you are no longer that party."


Read more: Coyne: Where did conservatism go?


----------



## Dr.G.

Stop the JNN presses!!!!!!!!! This just in from the Globe and Mail 
Iceland to pick new currency (I can't stand the suspense) - The Globe and Mail

Iceland to choose new currency
"I’m honestly not on a one-man campaign to have Iceland adopt the Canadian dollar. I just find the whole thing intriguing. And a bit funny. 
A loonie idea? Iceland wants to use Canada's money 

And I still want to know why Canada’s ambassador to Iceland says Ottawa is ready to talk about it. 

Those who have followed this story will remember that Canada’s ambassador, Alan Bones, told an Icelandic broadcaster just over a week ago that his government was prepared to discuss the idea of Iceland adopting the Canadian dollar, known here as the loonie because of the bird on its dollar coin, and ditching its krona if it decides to go that route." 

Such a move could pave the way for Iceland as becoming the 11 Canadian province -- taking away the status of NL as the last province to join Canadian Confederation. They might also become the most literate Canadian province, with a literacy rate of well over 95%. Sadly, NL would still retain it's placing as the Canadian province with the worst weather year round. Even Iceland has better weather these days than NL. 
Station forecasts - | Station forecasts - whole country | Weather forecasts | Weather | Icelandic Meteorological office


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> context matters, absolutely.
> 
> when a political party is paying a company hundreds of thousands of dollars for it's services, *is it really called "volunteering" when the president of said company mans the phone lines for a campaign?*
> 
> isn't that just semantics?


Yes if he is doing it on his own time.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*DeceptiCONS - we need an independent inquiry*

TheSpec - Robocalls: It?s time to call in the courts

We may find out today who Pierre Poutine is, but more importantly we need to go up the DeceptiCON ranks to weed out the cheaters. Too bad I can't make the protest today as I'm out of country but I'm tuned in from a distance.

Brought to you by JNN - "helping to unmask the DeceptiCONS since 2011"


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Uhhh, read the article once again. You completely missed the point of it. This diatribe about out of country people working on a campaign in of itself, is nothing but a red herring.
> 
> And if you wish to question the blogger, I highly encourage you to engage the blogger directly on the comment section, but first let me get some popcorn. I'll enjoy that.


I got the point of it, no need to read it again, the point is there is no point. BTW way you clearly have no idea what a diatribe is if you think 3 lines of text constitutes one.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I got the point of it, no need to read it again, the point is there is no point. BTW way you clearly have no idea what a diatribe is if you think 3 lines of text constitutes one.


That's hilarious. The point was clear, if you aren't a blind partisan.

The lies, the lack of credibility... Clear as day in the post.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That's hilarious. The point was clear, if you aren't a blind partisan.
> 
> The lies, the lack of credibility... Clear as day in the post.


Only if you are a blind partisan could you call volunteering at a local campaign office proof of anything.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Only if you are a blind partisan could you call volunteering at a local campaign office proof of anything.


If one has never heard of such a thing before, screature, it has never occurred.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Only if you are a blind partisan could you call volunteering at a local campaign office proof of anything.


once again, that was *NOT* the point of the article. No one has said such a thing.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> once again, that was *NOT* the point of the article. No one has said such a thing.


The point of the article was trying to connect dots that don't connect, if you don't see that then you aren't getting the point of the article.


----------



## groovetube

I see, it really was that difficult to understand.

I suppose the fact that it was highlighting the lies about it and the lack of credibility regarding this, wouldn't have anything... to do... with this at all.

Nothing to see here, just grab that red herring and repeat.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I see, it really was that difficult to understand.
> 
> I suppose the fact that it was highlighting the lies about it and the lack of credibility regarding this, wouldn't have anything... to do... with this at all.
> 
> Nothing to see here, just grab that red herring and repeat.


If you think the article said something important, than wrap it up in three understandable sentences. If you can't do that, we'll assume you never understood it in the first place.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I see, it really was that difficult to understand.
> 
> I suppose the fact that it was highlighting the lies about it and the lack of credibility regarding this, wouldn't have anything... to do... with this at all.
> 
> Nothing to see here, just grab that red herring and repeat.


What lies? Where? Tell me what you see as a lie...

If you think it is this then you are as wrong as the dufuss who posted in the first place:



> Nope, not that one either. Ok, here we go :


Note the date, Feb 26, 11 there was no election at the time. Not an election related expense. Duhho...


----------



## groovetube

Clearly you have reading comprehension problems, and missed the part about them lying about it.



The problem is, the cons have been lying, twisting, and putting out smoke screens from the start of this, and this is yet another example.



> Del Mastro stressed that the U.S. company *wasn’t hired to do any telemarketing or solicit votes.* Front Porch Strategies was hired to host an April 7 telephone town hall on its server, he said, and was booked through its Canadian affiliate and paid in Canadian dollars.


And it seems you conveniently, missed the other tidbits as well.

Selective hearing I guess...


----------



## groovetube

'Pierre Poutine' will admit robocall role, sources say



> “Where did he get the script?” the source said. “He didn’t come up with the same script in 30 ridings.”
> 
> Read more: 'Pierre Poutine' will admit robocall role, sources say


Good question...


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If you think the article said something important, than wrap it up in three understandable sentences. If you can't do that, we'll assume you never understood it in the first place.


The article very clearly did that as simply as anyone could. I'd say do some damned research, but a 10 year old can figure out such a simple article.

Screature said he wished to address the blogger, there's an active comments form right there, I say, go for it!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Clearly you have reading comprehension problems, and missed the part about them lying about it.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, the cons have been lying, twisting, and putting out smoke screens from the start of this, and this is yet another example.
> 
> 
> 
> And it seems you conveniently, missed the other tidbits as well.
> 
> Selective hearing I guess...


But they weren't... 2 guys from FP were volunteering... the other tidbits were meaningless attempts again trying to connect dots that don't connect. 

People don't get paid to work the phones in campaign offices, they volunteer... whole different operation than a paid telemarketing company. If you can't see that or don't know that then you really have no idea how big to be effective a telemarketing office has to be or how campaign offices work.

The blogger if full of BS and you got suckered in.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> the blogger if full of bs and you got suckered in.


+1.


----------



## groovetube

Keep on tossing out red herrings, I understand the desperation to deflect. However, once again, it's a severe credibility problem that is being pointed out. I guess it's just too difficult a concept to swallow.



> So, only the Conservative Party of Canada has been convicted of electoral fraud. Only the Conservative Party has been caught paying to make misleading calls. Only the Conservative Party has opposed an independent investigation of possibly electoral fraud in the 2011 election.
> 
> On a number of occasions the Conservatives admitted that they called Conservatives to inform them of changes of polling locations. Now, Elections Canada specifically told all of the political parties not to do this. The riding that was mentioned, a number of times, by the Conservatives was Edmonton-East. There were no polling location changes in Edmonton-East


Why Nobody Believes the Conservative Talking Points on the RoboCon Scandal. | The Equivocator


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I guess it's just too difficult a concept to swallow.


Apparently too difficult to describe as well.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Apparently too difficult to describe as well.


A simple concept described several times, yes I can see how you wouldn't like it macfury. The talking points, the deflections, the changing stories, yes, well you're welcome to believe all that!

Still waiting for screecher to go after the blogger. Won't hold my breath on that one, but it would be entertaining.

bu-bu-but they was volunteerin'!!!

Next we'll hear it was someone's dog's fault.


----------



## Macfury

Why would he go after that blogger? He's a non-entity who got his facts wrong.


----------



## groovetube

He seemed to want to address him. Except he did so in a passive aggressive way, here, instead of directly.

I guess you missed that as well.


----------



## Macfury

There you go, screature, you cyber-bully you!


----------



## groovetube

did someone bring up bullying?

Appears you're in the wrong thread again.


----------



## BigDL

On the weekend I saw the International Conservative Conspiracy in action. Jonesing for the good ol' days. Days of Ronnie and Maggie aaaghhh.

Planning on stealing the elections in the Excited States, then Australia. So many democracies to suppress, in so many countries. That's what I heard anyway.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> He seemed to want to address him. Except he did so in a passive aggressive way, here, instead of directly.
> 
> I guess you missed that as well.


Sigh leave it to good ole' gt to call it passive aggressive... 

I never had any intention of posting to the Blogger, his ignorance isn't worth addressing on his Blog and making it seem like I give a rats ass about what he thinks, it was simply a way of expressing criticism to a post that you seemed to think to be significant without referring to you, but the original Blogger that you agreed with...

Sorry it was not obvious to you. I should have said "RE: the Blogger and his point about US citizens working on a Canadian election campaigns,



> do you know how many Canadians went down to the US to work on Obama's campaign??? Hmmm...? Plenty, as was highlighted in a CBC Radio piece during the last US Federal election. It is common practice for those who are politically active to volunteer across the border at election time... both ways...
> 
> For example...
> 
> Canadians for Obama


there you happy now. :baby:


----------



## groovetube

just keep posting that red herring. If it makes you feel better, and completely ignore the obvious credibility problem of this government.

Like I said, a 10 year old can comprehend that.

And yeah, passive aggressive. Because it was.


----------



## Macfury

screature, give up. 'groove's link to that blogger has so many layers of hidden brilliance to it that you could exhaust a lifetime trying to counter them. Stop now before it becomes your undoing!


----------



## Max

Ahhh, the political thread. The very last bastion of mature online exchanges.


----------



## groovetube

layers of hidden brilliance? 

ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Real layered.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Ahhh, the political thread. The very last bastion of mature online exchanges.


ha ha ha. a handful of fools plugging their ears all yelling at the same time.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha. a handful of fools plugging their ears all yelling at the same time.


Nice to know the head fool can recognize his participation.


----------



## groovetube

Go get a gold star and stick on your forehead.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Nice to know the head fool can recognize his participation.


Personal attacks should not take place on Ehmac. Now sometimes in the heat of argument an unintended slight may be uttered. 

The ready remedy should be to make a sincere apology.


----------



## groovetube

Meh? | Red Tory v.3.0.3

an alternative view on this whole robo kerfuffle du jour.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Personal attacks should not take place on Ehmac. Now sometimes in the heat of argument an unintended slight may be uttered.


I see, you mean like this one?



groovetube said:


> Go get a gold star and stick on your forehead.


'Sides I never respond to a thread cop, do you? I could make a great big sig filled with nonsense and spread it all over ehMac, but when I saw how successful worked for others who tried it, well . . .


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I see, you mean like this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sides I never respond to a thread cop, do you? I could make a great big sig filled with nonsense and spread it all over ehMac, but when I saw how successful worked for others who tried it, well . . .


that was not a personal attack. I was being sarcastic in that you stated the incredibly obvious. Hence the gold star.

When I ha ha'd about a bunch fools all yelling, of course, I included myself. Well duh. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Oh, good! Now I won't have to resort to stupid big sigs filled with nonsense.


----------



## BigDL

Sadly when posters are devoid of wit or wisdom to debate the issues, these posters resort to personal attacks. When resorting to personal attacks the poster has admitted defeat, and the poster has lost badly.

When offered an opportunity to apologize, is refused, it speaks loudly with regard to the poster’s intent and the poster’s state of mind. 

Not in a moment of passion was the personal attack launched but in a moment of weakness leading to defeat. The greatest defeat is the loss of the poster’s integrity.


----------



## SINC

Good grief, so much babble, so little time to ponder it all, it seems. The banter between two others overlooked and misunderstood. Are you sure you're OK?


----------



## eMacMan

So it turns out former VP Cheney is afraid to speak in TO. 

Nope not in the least afraid that King Harpo will order his arrest as a war criminal.

Turns out he is terrified he might have an encounter with a protester. 



> TORONTO - Former U.S. vice-president Dick Cheney has cancelled a Canadian speaking appearance due to security concerns sparked by demonstrations during a visit he made to Vancouver last fall, the event promoter said Monday.
> 
> Cheney, whom the protesters denounced as a war criminal, was slated to talk about his experiences in office and the current American political situation at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre on April 24.
> 
> However, Ryan Ruppert, of Spectre Live Corp., said Cheney and his daughter Elizabeth had begged off via their agent.
> 
> "After speaking with their security advisers, they changed their mind on coming to the event," Ruppert said.
> 
> "(They) decided it was better for their personal safety they stay out of Canada."


Former U.S. vp Dick Cheney deems Canada too dangerous for speaking visit - Yahoo! News Canada


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Personal attacks should not take place on Ehmac. Now sometimes in the heat of argument an unintended slight may be uttered.
> 
> The ready remedy should be to make a sincere apology.


:lmao: You first... your personal attacks have been ongoing for some time now....

In case you want to try and pretend you don't know what I am referring to I will give you a hint... it is called badgering.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> So it turns out former VP Cheney is afraid to speak in TO.
> 
> *Nope not in the least afraid that King Harpo will order his arrest as a war criminal.*
> 
> Turns out he is terrified he might have an encounter with a protester.
> 
> 
> Former U.S. vp Dick Cheney deems Canada too dangerous for speaking visit - Yahoo! News Canada


So what leader in Western world would do that... just so we can be clear? Hmmm...?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So what leader in Western world would do that... just so we can be clear? Hmmm...?


Cheney braved bomb threats while visiting Afghanistan. He's no coward. But no sense in having some idiot throw a bottle at him at this point.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> :lmao: You first... your personal attacks have been ongoing for some time now....
> 
> In case you want to try and pretend you don't know what I am referring to I will give you a hint... it is called badgering.


*badger |ˈbajər|

verb [ trans. ]
ask (someone) repeatedly and annoyingly for something; pester :* 

I have advocated for the cessation of cyber bulling...my bad!


----------



## groovetube

I wasn't aware of any bigDL personal attacks. Just some more 'ongoing' babbling I guess...


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> *badger |ˈbajər|
> 
> verb [ trans. ]
> ask (someone) repeatedly and annoyingly for something; pester :*
> 
> I have advocated for the cessation of cyber bulling...my bad!


And he wouldn't know anything about badgering :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Perhaps there's hope for you yet, groove!


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I wasn't aware of any bigDL personal attacks. Just some more 'ongoing' babbling I guess...


I find it best not to dignify baseless smears and unfounded accusations with a response.

If someone, had any facts or evidence, I'm sure that information would be gathered and forwarded to the proper authorities forthwith all due haste. 

Someone could bring forth the facts and evidence and list it here instead of their unfounded accusations and baseless smears.

Therefore as anyone can see, all we have is carping, from the usual suspects.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I find it best not to dignify baseless smears and unfounded accusations with a response.
> 
> If someone, had any facts or evidence, I'm sure that information would be gathered and forwarded to the proper authorities forthwith all due haste.
> 
> Someone could bring forth the facts and evidence and list it here instead of their unfounded accusations and baseless smears.
> 
> Therefore as anyone can see, all we have is carping, from the usual suspects.


"Round Up The Usual Suspects!" (CASABLANCA) - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I find it best not to dignify baseless smears and unfounded accusations with a response.
> 
> If someone, had any facts or evidence, I'm sure that information would be gathered and forwarded to the proper authorities forthwith all due haste.
> 
> Someone could bring forth the facts and evidence and list it here instead of their unfounded accusations and baseless smears.
> 
> Therefore as anyone can see, all we have is carping, from the usual suspects.


I have no doubt you would be reported and dragged to the principle's office toute suite either. I've gotten used to the pontificating of how someone is so civil and how others aren't. :baby::baby::baby:


----------



## jimbotelecom

DeciptiCONS - from the we're competent managers of the public purse department -
HARPER is a fink!

Ceremony to celebrate Libyan war victory cost double original budget: documents

Brought to you by JNN - Understand why the majority didn't want to give these CON artists a majority - chit.


----------



## BigDL

DeceptiCon's grandiose self congratulatory spending in times of restraint is shameful. 

The total disregard for the long term consequences, because of a rush to battle, as a result of Our Glorious Leader's, war mongering is reckless.


----------



## groovetube

the only feeble response I've heard has been, 'the wiberals woulda spent more'.

Hah. Yeah, just keep repeating that.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *badger |ˈbajər|
> 
> verb [ trans. ]
> ask (someone) repeatedly and annoyingly for something; pester :*
> 
> I have advocated for the cessation of cyber bulling...my bad!





groovetube said:


> I wasn't aware of any bigDL personal attacks. Just some more 'ongoing' babbling I guess...





groovetube said:


> And he wouldn't know anything about badgering :lmao:





BigDL said:


> I find it best not to dignify baseless smears and unfounded accusations with a response.
> 
> If someone, had any facts or evidence, I'm sure that information would be gathered and forwarded to the proper authorities forthwith all due haste.
> 
> Someone could bring forth the facts and evidence and list it here instead of their unfounded accusations and baseless smears.
> 
> Therefore as anyone can see, all we have is carping, from the usual suspects.





groovetube said:


> I have no doubt you would be reported and dragged to the principle's office toute suite either. I've gotten used to the pontificating of how someone is so civil and how others aren't. :baby::baby::baby:


tr.v. badg·ered, badg·er·ing, badg·ers
*To harass or pester persistently*.

Of this BigDL is most definitely guilty when it comes to MF. Sorry he is the only person here I see conducting themselves in such a manner.

And yes I most definitely see this as a personal attack.

gt your notion that I am guilty of badgering is patently false when the only thing I engage in is debate over issues and/or the meaning of terms that are used in error then when others, yourself included, continue to come back with your own retort and then are responded to does not constitute badgering. I challenge you to point out an example of where I badgered anyone about anything.

The whole reason why this latest round was started because of BigDL hypocritically asking for an apology from SINC when he in fact is conducting an ongoing personal attack on MF.


----------



## BigDL

Sigh! Where do I start? Well no where!

Once again opinion is expressed as if it some how a fact.

An opinion even if it is strongly held is just that; an opinion.

No empirical evidence, no research, no facts. 

Again unfounded accusations and baseless smears then an expression of emotion and opinion, that's all.

No one made claims baseless or well founded about screature but now we seemingly have a situation where someone desires to be the centre of attention.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Sigh! Where do I start? Well no where!
> 
> Once again opinion is expressed as if it some how a fact.
> 
> An opinion even if it is strongly held is just that; an opinion.
> 
> No empirical evidence, no research, no facts.
> 
> Again unfounded accusations and baseless smears then an expression of emotion and opinion, that's all.
> 
> No one made claims baseless or well founded about screature but now we seemingly have a situation where someone desires to be the centre of attention.


Baseless smears..? you repeatedly spout your Monty python gibberish after MF's posts do you not? "Say no more say no more, nudge nudge wink wink etc. etc. blab blah blah... The evidence is in the thread all over the place, what research exactly would be required.... Desires to be the center of attention??? More than you with you Grandiose sig... get over yourself.


----------



## groovetube

Ha ha ha. Yeah where to start. Nowhere.

Well said DL.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Cheney braved bomb threats while visiting Afghanistan. He's no coward. But no sense in having some idiot throw a bottle at him at this point.


'Course not letting anyone know he was there, until after the he completed the photo-op and headed home again, did wonders to keep him safe. A tactic similarly employed by Helicopter Mac. Sadly the young men they sent over as cannon fodder were not offered the same option.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Obviously there are a few people here out of step with world opinion as ol' Dick is clearly a war criminal and should be brought to the Hague and imprisoned the rest of his life.

Good for Canadians scaring ol' Dick.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Obviously there are a few people here out of step with world opinion as ol' Dick is clearly a war criminal and should be brought to the Hague and imprisoned the rest of his life.
> 
> Good for Canadians scaring ol' Dick.



My opinion is that he is not a criminal--a very popular opinion in fact.


----------



## groovetube

with all 20 of your neurons? Indeed! Popular!

Macfury's opinion = everyone's opinion. Apparently.


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Obviously there are a few people here out of step with world opinion as ol' Dick is clearly a war criminal and should be brought to the Hague and imprisoned the rest of his life.
> 
> Good for Canadians scaring ol' Dick.


The latest reports are that The Harper Government of Canada requested that he not come because he wanted to take PM Harper hunting for polar bear in the high arctic ............... and we all know what happened to Cheney's friend when they went quail hunting!!! So, PM Harper told him "No, polar bears are endangered" and let it go at that.


----------



## Dr.G.

The Harper Government of Canada has just raised some doubts as to whether or not "they are going to go there" re the purchase of F-35s. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

with how things are going, they'd be pretty thick not to. I mean, much more so than they have been so far.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> The latest reports are that The Harper Government of Canada requested that he not come because he wanted to take PM Harper hunting for polar bear in the high arctic ............... and we all know what happened to Cheney's friend when they went quail hunting!!! So, PM Harper told him "No, polar bears are endangered" and let it go at that.


Dang, could of been a blast.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> The Harper Government of Canada has just raised some doubts as to whether or not "they are going to go there" re the purchase of F-35s. We shall see.


Yup. Staffed war planes are going the way of the Dodo.


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Dang, could of been a blast.


XX)

That's our prime minister you are talking about, jc. Of course, PM Harper could have sent Bob Rae to fill in for him.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER - Vivre le Quebec Libre!*

Quebec refuses to implement Harper’s crime bill - The Globe and Mail

Now if we can only get McSquinty and others to follow suit - a majority of our population would oppose this outrageous bill. Don't forget this is a federalist government in Quebec.

Brought to you by JNN - "opposing CON deceptions since 2011"


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> XX)
> 
> That's our prime minister you are talking about, jc. Of course, PM Harper could have sent Bob Rae to fill in for him.


Absolutely! Now you're talking....


----------



## jimbotelecom

^^^^^

Naw more likely our chickenchit PM would substitute McKay to take the brunt of ol' Dick's poor gunsmanship.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Naw more likely our chickenchit PM would substitute McKay to take the brunt of ol' Dick's poor gunsmanship.


But then McKay and Chaney would have to travel in one of our helicopters. That might present an additional safety concern for Chaney...eh?


----------



## groovetube

nothing like, makin' sure. Eh?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

jimbotelecom said:


> Now if we can only get McSquinty and others to follow suit - a majority of our population would oppose this outrageous bill. Don't forget this is a federalist government in Quebec.


I would think a lot of the provinces would be smart to oppose this stupid bill. It's been projected that this will add a huge amount to provincial prison and court budgets. Many have already expressed concern about this and they would be stupid to just accept this downloading of costs to pay for something that's needless.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - A fine example of fair weather friends - Sona the scapegoat - HARPER*

Elections Canada sifts through Tory database to identify Pierre Poutine - The Globe and Mail

It's clear from this report that the DeceptiCONs know something went wrong in Guelph. With the opposition digging up the same or similar examples of electoral fraud in 30 ridings there had to have been a larger operation than a simple rogue team in Guelph. The CIM database, one of HARPER's pet projects, is jealously guarded. It should be relatively easy for Elections officials to find a trail of user abuse of the system.

It's wonderful to see HARPER showing his brand of stellar leadership by ducking and prolonging the calls for accountability and transparency. What are you hiding from HARPER? The wagons are circling. And of course the vultures will pick apart the carcass that remains.

Brought to you by JNN - "Helping the CONS realize they've been CONNED since 2011"


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> Elections Canada sifts through Tory database to identify Pierre Poutine - The Globe and Mail
> 
> It's clear from this report that the DeceptiCONs know something went wrong in Guelph. With the opposition digging up the same or similar examples of electoral fraud in 30 ridings there had to have been a larger operation than a simple rogue team in Guelph. The CIM database, one of HARPER's pet projects, is jealously guarded. It should be relatively easy for Elections officials to find a trail of user abuse of the system.
> 
> It's wonderful to see HARPER showing his brand of stellar leadership by ducking and prolonging the calls for accountability and transparency. What are you hiding from HARPER? The wagons are circling. And of course the vultures will pick apart the carcass that remains.
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - "Helping the CONS realize they've been CONNED since 2011"


Watch it there, Jimbo, lest ye be accused of too much in depth analysis of the linked material and also accused of having a bias.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I am sorry to have let you down. I'll make a few adjustments and come back to the thread with renewed vigour and a more focused sense of purpose.


----------



## BigDL

I am not complaining but some might.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*CONS - I'll take CASH please - remnants of a bygone era - Where's our money HARPER?*

Brian Mulroney, Prem Watsa to win Horatio Alger Awards - The Globe and Mail

Hey HARPER when do we Canadian taxpayers get our 2 Million back? Good thing RIM didn't put him on their board given their abundant CASH reserves!

Brought to you by JNN - "Once a CON always a CON, chit"


----------



## BigDL

Who was it that said "no whore like an old whore," maybe the same son of a...


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I would think a lot of the provinces would be smart to oppose this stupid bill. It's been projected that this will add a huge amount to provincial prison and court budgets. Many have already expressed concern about this and they would be stupid to just accept this downloading of costs to pay for something that's needless.


yes, in Ontario it's been reported that this bill will cost us over a billion dollars, ad ylu know how early cost projections for these sorts of things are really low.

It seems the big money squander that the cons screeched about with the gun registry will be made to look like chump change soon enough.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> yes, in Ontario it's been reported that this bill will cost us over a billion dollars, ad ylu know how early cost projections for these sorts of things are really low.
> 
> It seems the big money squander that the cons screeched about with the gun registry will be made to look like chump change soon enough.


So, do you know the breakdown of the cost for Ontario? Some of our prisons are over 100 years old and do need updating or continue to cost huge in maintenance and upgrades.

I'm not defending this crime bill, but don't compare it to the registry which was a total waste of money and bill c-68 continues to cost even though the long rifle part has been scrapped.


----------



## groovetube

it was long reported and I was asked for that link 3 times at least. The assumption we have to spend billions in new jails because ours are aging, is a convenient one.

And nationally, this will make the registry chump change, and will be every bit, the waste of money as you put it.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> it was long reported and I was asked for that link 3 times at least. The assumption we have to spend billions in new jails because ours are aging, is a convenient one.
> 
> And nationally, this will make the registry chump change, and will be every bit, the waste of money as you put it.


Whether it's convenient or not it is a fact and at least it creates construction jobs and in the end, unlike the LGR, you actually get something tangible...and even useful. Heck, they may even last for another 100 years. lol

My biggest fear is McGuinty being responsible for implementing this portion of the bill. He couldn't manage eHealth, how is he to manage this monstrosity of a bill? Yes, it'll cost us dearly, but the federal cons will not be responsible for any overruns. It'll be the moron at Queens Park.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Whether it's convenient or not it is a fact and at least it creates construction jobs and in the end, unlike the LGR, you actually get something tangible...and even useful. Heck, they may even last for another 100 years. lol
> 
> My biggest fear is McGuinty being responsible for implementing this portion of the bill. He couldn't manage eHealth, how is he to manage this monstrosity of a bill? Yes, it'll cost us dearly, but the federal cons will not be responsible for any overruns. It'll be the moron at Queens Park.


I donno kps, the lgr also created jobs, just not construction jobs. Lots of database jobs etc. Unless you thought it created itself... 

And I'm not aware that Ontario has to spend a billion to build new jails under the current system. Not to mention all the other provinces.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I donno kps, the lgr also created jobs, just not construction jobs. Lots of database jobs etc. Unless you thought it created itself...
> 
> And I'm not aware that Ontario has to spend a billion to build new jails under the current system. Not to mention all the other provinces.


We requested helpf from Ottawa to replace or expand HRM Pen here in St.John's, but was turned down. It is already overcrowded and we are not sure where to put the influx of new prisoners under this new law.


----------



## groovetube

hey they have a budget to balance!


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I donno kps, the lgr also created jobs, just not construction jobs. Lots of database jobs etc. Unless you thought it created itself...
> 
> And I'm not aware that Ontario has to spend a billion to build new jails under the current system. Not to mention all the other provinces.


Like I said, do we have the breakdown of the costs or is all this conjecture? So who says Ontario will spend billions on new jails? Unless of course Dalton wills it that way.

The database jobs for the registry went to Liberal consultants... Not government employees. The "other" jobs, the data-entry jobs, went to 140 FTEs for the whole Canadian Firearms Centre in Miramichi NB. If you go to the "Gun Registry" thread, I posted a link long time ago to the actual cost of the operation based on the RCMP's "proactive disclosure programme". Which indicated 140 FTEs (Full Time Employees). The link is dead now because the RCMP decided to take down the pdf. And remember that those 140 ftes, also do transfers and the handgun registry plus other duties as per the CFC and the firearms act.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> hey they have a budget to balance!


So too we, gt.


----------



## groovetube

Kps it was already reported what Ontario would have to spend in order to meet the growing demand for his. Time bill, I was attacked for not having a link even though it was big news here. Costs were started at 900 million for a new facility to meet the demand and there were other costs associated with this new bill as well. Easily found.


----------



## BigDL

Every government is balancing on one toe, the tax payers. 

This proprietary notion of the money in a budget belongs to the government has to go.

The money for municipal and/or provincial and/or federal governments, comes from one place and belongs to us all.

Governments should not be secretive about how much money is collected or is being spent and for which purpose. It should be clear and readily available to citizens and any of the citizens' representatives to follow the money.

I don't mind paying my share of taxes and expect to get the value out of the money spent on the goods and services required/used and provided to us.

We should be provided with the plans clearly laid out for us to follow should we choose.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Every government is balancing on one toe, the tax payers.
> 
> This proprietary notion of the money in a budget belongs to the government has to go.
> 
> The money for municipal and/or provincial and/or federal governments, comes from one place and belongs to us all.
> 
> Governments should not be secretive about how much money is collected or is being spent and for which purpose. It should be clear and readily available to citizens and any of the citizens' representatives to follow the money.
> 
> I don't mind paying my share of taxes and expect to get the value out of the money spent on the goods and services required/used and provided to us.
> 
> We should be provided with the plans clearly laid out for us to follow should we choose.


The Public Accounts


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Every government is balancing on one toe, the tax payers.
> 
> This proprietary notion of the money in a budget belongs to the government has to go.
> 
> The money for municipal and/or provincial and/or federal governments, comes from one place and belongs to us all.
> 
> Governments should not be secretive about how much money is collected or is being spent and for which purpose. *It should be clear and readily available to citizens and any of the citizens' representatives to follow the money.
> *
> I don't mind paying my share of taxes and expect to get the value out of the money spent on the goods and services required/used and provided to us.
> 
> We should be provided with the plans clearly laid out for us to follow should we choose.


It is on the PWGSC website, the public has all the information available to them that Parliamentarians do.... if you want to sift through the thousands and thousands of pages your are welcome to do so any time of the day.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> The Public Accounts


Which ones, where and when? I would like to know the size of the pot of money, the plans before it's spent, as well the expenditures after the fact. I' m sure most citizens would.


----------



## screature

Public Accounts of Canada 2011 

Report on Plans and Priorities


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Public Accounts of Canada 2011


 Thanks, I meant to preview and I posted too soon. That only one level of government.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Thanks, I meant to preview and I posted too soon. That only one level of government.


I presume if you go to your provincial and municipal government web sites you would be able to find equivalent documents for those jurisdictions as well.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> I presume if you go to your provincial and municipal government web sites you would be able to find equivalent documents for those jurisdictions as well.


You have highlighted my point why should we chase around to find this information. There should more co-operation between the levels of government and consolidation of the information.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> You have highlighted my point why should we chase around to find this information. There should more co-operation between the levels of government and consolidation of the information.


Having to go to different web sites because the jurisdictions are different makes perfect sense. It isn't as though there's a deliberate stumbling block being placed in the way.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> You have highlighted my point why should we chase around to find this information. There should more co-operation between the levels of government and consolidation of the information.


I don't agree and neither would the individual jurisdictions. They want and in fact demand the autonomy of their jurisdictions as is called for in our constitution.

In the day of the internet it is hardly having to chase around to find the information, quite frankly the level of effort required compared to years gone by is miniscule when you would have to go to your local library to have access to such documents and publications.


----------



## groovetube

with the level of screeching around here for a link easily googled in 5 seconds, boy you'd think otherwise.

Funny how that works.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> with the level of screeching around here for a link easily googled in 5 seconds, boy you'd think otherwise.
> 
> Funny how that works.


What's funny is that you manage to create confrontation even when there is absolutely no need or call for it.... funny how that works.


----------



## groovetube

It's only a confrontation if *you *want it to be. You can agree or disagree, or, turn it into a confrontation. It's up to you I guess.

It's simply an obvious irony and I pointed it out.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's simply an obvious irony and I pointed it out.


Why is it ironic?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Why is it ironic?


Since you're the one that does most of the link demanding, it's hardly surprising that you wouldn't see it. You'll have to figure it out all on your own I'm afraid. I'll simply chuckle. At your expense.

Isn't there another thread you need to troll/thread cop?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Since you're the one that does most of the link demanding, it's hardly surprising that you wouldn't see it. You'll have to figure it out all on your own I'm afraid. I'll simply chuckle. At your expense.
> 
> Isn't there another thread you need to troll/thread cop?


Since when is asking someone to explain their post "trolling?" 

The problem is that you seem to have misapplied the definition of irony.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It's only a confrontation if *you *want it to be. You can agree or disagree, or, turn it into a confrontation. It's up to you I guess.
> 
> It's simply an obvious irony and I pointed it out.


What exactly is ironic about my providing links (very quickly I would add) to information that BigDL mentioned he would like to see and then stating reasons why it is not going to happen that the various jurisdictions consolidate that information into one site...?


----------



## groovetube

It's of no surprise the pair of you are walking around wondering.

It's kind of entertaining actually.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It's of no surprise the pair of you are walking around wondering.
> 
> It's kind of entertaining actually.


No it is up to you to explain what you mean as it is far from clear... I actually think you don't have a grasp on the meaning of irony.

What's entertaining is to see you stumble around pretending that you are above explaining yourself when in fact it seems you are quite incapable of doing so because your statements are not defensible due to a misbegotten notion.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> no it is up to you to explain what you mean as it is far from clear... I actually think you don't have a grasp on the meaning of irony.
> 
> What's entertaining is to see you stumble around pretending that you are above explaining yourself when in fact it seems you are quite incapable of doing so because your statements are not defensible due to a misbegotten notion.


+1


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> I don't agree and neither would the individual jurisdictions. They want and in fact demand the autonomy of their jurisdictions as is called for in our constitution.
> 
> In the day of the internet it is hardly having to chase around to find the information, quite frankly the level of effort required compared to years gone by is miniscule when you would have to go to your local library to have access to such documents and publications.


I guess some haven't overcome the proprietary notion and are satisfied with the status quo. :yawn:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I guess some haven't overcome the proprietary notion and are satisfied with the status quo. :yawn:


What incentive would they have to do that, when the _status quo_ works well for them?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I guess some haven't overcome the proprietary notion and are satisfied with the status quo. :yawn:


Status quo..?  Yeah... it is called our Constitution.... 

Maybe you can draft up a proposal to alter the Constitution and get a meeting with your MP or MLA/MNA /MPP or city/civic counsellor to discuss the matter and why amalgamated and separate (because that is what would be required) Fed/Prov/Municipal websites would be warranted and cost effective...

Please report back when you have a proposal and have had any of those meetings...


----------



## groovetube

wow. The mere suggestion of any co-operation of sharing of information even links, this simple everyday thing performed by millions and millions of websites daily, becomes a constitutional upset.

Who knew?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> wow. The mere suggestion of any co-operation of sharing of information even links, this simple everyday thing performed by millions and millions of websites daily, becomes a constitutional upset.
> 
> Who knew?


BigGL is not suggesting* sharing links * (which is already done BTW) but a "single website" that would incorporate all Fed/Prov/Municipal financial recording and plans....

*All *jurisdictions would have to voluntarily agree to it for it to be effective i.e. inclusive. *Every* single jurisdictional authority in the country... all 3 jurisdictions of which there are several hundred would have to voluntarily agree or you open the constitution to make it mandatory to participate and guess what Quebec would NEVER agree either voluntarily or if a Constitutional amendment were proposed. 

Seems you really don't have a very good grasp on the day to day operations of domestic intergovernmental politics and law.


----------



## groovetube

hmmm, I didn't see where he suggested it all be consolidated into 'one website'.

As for my 'good grasp', if only I had a job on the hill. Boy I'd be smart.


----------



## screature

groovetube;1178462[B said:


> ]hmmm, I didn't see where he suggested it all be consolidated into 'one website'.
> [/B]
> As for my 'good grasp', if only I had a job on the hill. Boy I'd be smart.


BigDL said:



> You have highlighted my point why should we chase around to find this information. There should more co-operation between the levels of government and *consolidation* of the information.


consolidate |kənˈsäləˌdāt|
verb
1 [ trans. ] make (something) physically stronger or more solid : the first phase of the project is to consolidate the outside walls.
• reinforce or strengthen (one's position or power) : the company consolidated its position in the international market.
•* combine (a number of things) into a single more effective or coherent whole *: all manufacturing activities have been consolidated in new premises.

That indicates a desire for comprehensive information in one single repository website.

You don't read closely enough...



> As for my 'good grasp', if only I had a job on the hill. Boy I'd be smart.


Nah... I think you would be about the same....


----------



## groovetube

well no one can be as smart as someone as you. Apparently.

I'm glad you confirmed the definition for yourself, but it still never said "one website".

Sorry.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well no one can be as smart as someone as you. Apparently.
> 
> I'm glad you confirmed the definition for yourself, but it still never said "one website".
> 
> Sorry.


Sorry you are so insecure and English isn't your first language...


----------



## groovetube

alright smartarse, since you love personal attacks, (yet will scream shrilly should anyone do it to you everytime) show us where it was suggested it to be just "one website", as opposed to consolidating info with cooperation.

Since you want to be a complete jerk about it.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> alright smartarse, *since you love personal attacks*, (yet will scream shrilly should anyone do it to you everytime) *show us where it was suggested it to be just "one website", as opposed to consolidating info with cooperation.*
> 
> Since you want to be a complete jerk about it.


:lmao: An accusation of personal attacks coming from the master... too funny.

I already clearly indicated it to you... 

Being that this will go on ad nauseam unless someone puts an end to it, I will bow out at this point as I am quite confident I have clearly made my point.

Ciao.


----------



## groovetube

no accusations, just lmao since you screech everytime someone else even insinuates it. noooot meeeeeee.... nooooo. pffftt.

And no, you have NOT indicated anything whatsoever. Clarify please. Using the term consolidate in regards to information on the web, does not mean, "one website", in fact I just finished a project very common that takes feeds to "consolidate information", it's 9 websites actually. If you knew anything about information structure online you'd know this.

Somehow, we got to, screecher is a smarty pants cause he works on the hill and well the constitution blah blah blah.... don't you know, and you're a ninny blah blah. omg we almost had a civil war there!

Which is the usual.

I need me some popcorn.


----------



## kps

I gotz mine...carry on chaps!


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha. I love the pic kps.

just bluster. My rooster is bigger'n everyone's. y'know.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Somehow, we got to, screecher is a smarty pants cause he works on the hill and well the constitution ...


Don't let a little thing like the Constitution or research get in your way, man! Just go for it!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Don't let a little thing like the Constitution or research get in your way, man! Just go for it!


well hey if it was actually relevant talking about cooperation and having relevant info from other levels of government present, maybe it'd be worthwhile. But since it was an exercise in look how smart I am, why bother?


----------



## Macfury

screature made his points well and backed them up. Now you're complaining that his attitude isn't good enough? Give me a break!


----------



## groovetube

oh, you thought you'd change your post to a troll. Sorry pal it's done.

Maybe there'll be a new thread you two can go after and thread cop like jackels again if'n yer lucky.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Maybe there'll be a new thread you two can go after and thread cop like jackels again if'n yer lucky.


I don't know what your history is 'groove, and maybe it's littered with bad experiences, but asking someone to explain what they're saying isn't considered either trolling or insulting. You're free to post whatever comes into your head, but don't expect it to go unchallenged if it's either unclear or wrong. And that holds true for all threads "if'n you get my drift."


----------



## groovetube

:lmao::lmao: oh I think it's clear I'm free to post what I did, and I did!


----------



## groovetube

now that stupidity is done.

Check out this brainless senators comments:
Green Charities Clash With Harper Conservatives


Oh and on the subject of foreign dollars, this government is just being lying D-bags. As usual.




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Speaking of "deep pockets", guess we are all going to have to work a bit longer to help pay for these tax "bits". tptptptpXX)

From coffee shops to an escalator to nowhere, how your tax dollas were misspent. - Eight ways Ottawa wasted your money last year - Taxes: Gallery - Money - MSN CA


----------



## BigDL

Thanks Dr.G. 

I like when complex systems are broken down into manageable numbers. 

From Dr.G. link I clicked on this link. "This link" breaks down the average costs to taxpayers for the operations carried on by government.

I particularly like knowing the CBC gets, on average, is awarded $25.97 a year of my money to operate. It only cost $307.42 of federal dollars to pay for health care and education. The RCM Police get $75.47 on average per year. Employment Insurance receives $491.89 of my money, which I will gladly pay, even though, I shall never have an opportunity to draw any benefits from EI for the rest of my life.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Thanks Dr.G.
> 
> I like when complex systems are broken down into manageable numbers.
> 
> From Dr.G. link I clicked on this link. "This link" breaks down the average costs to taxpayers for the operations carried on by government.
> 
> I particularly like knowing the CBC gets, on average, is awarded $25.97 a year of my money to operate. It only cost $307.42 of federal dollars to pay for health care and education. The RCM Police get $75.47 on average per year. Employment Insurance receives $491.89 of my money, which I will gladly pay, even though, I shall never have an opportunity to draw any benefits from EI for the rest of my life.


No problem. Glad to be of some service.

I just got back my federal tax refund -- a whopping $508!!!!! I am donating $500 of it to our local food sharing association which runs the local food banks, and buying my wife a nice $8 plant. Now, I have to keep working to earn money to pay taxes and to get to my "tax free day" sometime in July.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> now that stupidity is done.
> 
> Check out this brainless senators comments:
> Green Charities Clash With Harper Conservatives


Harper and co. really should feel ashamed of themselves over the rhetoric they're pushing out. If you disagree with them over C-30 you're for child pornography. if you support the LGR you're like Hitler. If you're an environmentalist you'd take money from Al Qaeda.

Really? is this how we want debate and political discourse to be carried out in our political institutions by those who are supposed to be reasonable enough to govern?

It's very clear that Harper and co. are trying to push us into US style politics where the most important message is to divide the population instead of uniting the country. very sickening.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Harper and co. really should feel ashamed of themselves over the rhetoric they're pushing out. If you disagree with them over C-30 you're for child pornography. if you support the LGR you're like Hitler. If you're an environmentalist you'd take money from Al Qaeda.
> 
> Really? is this how we want debate and political discourse to be carried out in our political institutions by those who are supposed to be reasonable enough to govern?
> 
> It's very clear that Harper and co. are trying to push us into US style politics where the most important message is to divide the population *instead of uniting the country*. very sickening.


When has this ever been the modus operandi/raison d'être of any political party anywhere let alone in Canada... a nice naive/utopian dream but not very realistic now or ever...

Politics is based on opposition, not unity... a sad but all too real fact that some people seem to forget.


----------



## i-rui

there is a difference between disagreeing with your opponent and painting them as child poronographers/ hitler/ terrorists.

i hope you can see the difference.

that kind of rhetoric destroys debate, not encourages it.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> Harper and co. really should feel ashamed of themselves over the rhetoric they're pushing out. If you disagree with them over C-30 you're for child pornography. if you support the LGR you're like Hitler. If you're an environmentalist you'd take money from Al Qaeda.
> 
> Really? is this how we want debate and political discourse to be carried out in our political institutions by those who are supposed to be reasonable enough to govern?
> 
> It's very clear that Harper and co. are trying to push us into US style politics where the most important message is to divide the population instead of uniting the country. very sickening.





screature said:


> When has this ever been the modus operandi/raison d'être of any political party anywhere let alone in Canada... a nice naive/utopian dream but not very realistic now or ever...
> 
> Politics is based on opposition, not unity... a sad but all too real fact that some people seem to forget.


The Mayor's Ehmac "The Canadian Political Thread" fairs well when compared to real world discussion and Ehmac citizenry, pooh pooh, the discussions in this thread.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> there is a difference between disagreeing with your opponent and painting them as child poronographers/ hitler/ terrorists.
> 
> i hope you can see the difference.
> 
> that kind of rhetoric destroys debate, not encourages it.


It's hard to believe anyone would stop to justify this disgusting new low of political sparring.

It is indeed Canada's "new government".


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's hard to believe anyone would stop to justify this disgusting new low of political sparring.
> 
> It is indeed Canada's "new government".


That's hilarious. No context at all, before Harper's election.


----------



## groovetube

hilarious? Why don't you point out the previous governments that referred to those who disagree with them as terrorists, child pornographers, etc etc. And I mean that level of disgusting.

Give us some context then if you feel there should be some.


----------



## i-rui

i agree. obviously there is always going to be bickering and name calling between political parties, but this has been ratcheted up to a different level, not only in the terms being bandied about, but (and more disturbing) how the Conservatives have extended the attacks to include non-politicians & citizens with the same venom.

Environmentalists could be taking money from Hamas because they disagree with pipelines. Every day people who are concerned with their privacy are standing with child pornographers. etc...etc... we're on that path to US style politics unless people let them know it's unacceptable.


----------



## jimbotelecom

HARPER - We're closing in for the kill!

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/news/story.html?id=6310974

So long Steve, stick this in your pipe and inhale:

Bob Marley - Guiltiness - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP3VsZ7QD08


----------



## CubaMark

> _Mike Hancock, the Liberal Democrat MP for Portsmouth South, said it's time the British and Canadian governments explained how the deal went wrong.
> 
> "Why were the Canadians daft enough to buy them?" he asked.
> 
> "My God, it's a sad tale, isn't it? 'Buyer beware' should have been painted on the sides of these submarines."_


(Used subs a 'daft' deal for Canada, U.K. MP says)


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> HARPER - We're closing in for the kill!
> 
> Investigators strike 'gold' in robocall complaints
> 
> So long Steve, stick this in your pipe and inhale:


Not that I'm defending the Poutine guy or any of this election shenanigans....but...

24,257,592 eligible voters

14,823,408 actual votes (61%)

31,000 petition signers

*700 actual complaints* across the whole country.

Tell me how that is "closing in on the kill"? Just asking...


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Not that I'm defending the Poutine guy or any of this election shenanigans....but...
> 
> 24,257,592 eligible voters
> 
> 14,823,408 actual votes (61%)
> 
> 31,000 petition signers
> 
> *700 actual complaints* across the whole country.
> 
> Tell me how that is "closing in on the kill"? Just asking...


More will come to light. No need to worry. The CONs wouldn't have stuck their necks out for such small potatoes.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Not that I'm defending the Poutine guy or any of this election shenanigans....but...
> 
> 24,257,592 eligible voters
> 
> 14,823,408 actual votes (61%)
> 
> 31,000 petition signers
> 
> *700 actual complaints* across the whole country.
> 
> Tell me how that is "closing in on the kill"? Just asking...


So if 700 complaints relating to anti-democratic illegal behaviour isn't shocking how many would it take to be upsetting? 

Would it only be conditional on who rather than how many?


----------



## CubaMark

*Canadian cops want to add a spying tax to phone bills to pay for warrantless wiretapping*



> "One of the major unanswered questions about Bill C-30, Canada's lawful access/online surveillance bill, is who will pay for the costs associated with responding to law enforcement demands for subscriber information ('look ups') and installation of surveillance equipment ('hook ups'). I recently obtained documents from Public Safety under the Access to Information Act that indicates that the government doesn't really have its own answer. But apparently the police do. The documents indicate *they proposed a new 'public safety' tax to be added to Internet and wireless bills.*"


(Michael Geist via BoingBoing)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Canadian cops want to add a spying tax to phone bills to pay for warrantless wiretapping*
> 
> 
> 
> (Michael Geist via BoingBoing)


Makes sense to me. Why should the phone companies be forced to pay for services that the government wants undertaken? Since we are the consumers of these phones, we should pay. As for the "warentless wiretapping", if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about re this "search". Hopefully, we will move closer to the Mexican model of justice. A major difference in the criminal law in Mexico as compared to Canada is the notion that the accused is considered guilty until proven innocent. This would make matters so much simplier here in Canada, as well as providing further justification for more prisons, since there would be more prisoners.

All makes sense to me .................... I think. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Makes sense to me. Why should the phone companies be forced to pay for services that the government wants undertaken? Since we are the consumers of these phones, we should pay. As for the "warentless wiretapping", if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about re this "search". Hopefully, we will move closer to the Mexican model of justice. A major difference in the criminal law in Mexico as compared to Canada is the notion that the accused is considered guilty until proven innocent. This would make matters so much simplier here in Canada, as well as providing further justification for more prisons, since there would be more prisoners.
> 
> All makes sense to me .................... I think.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Yes...and heaven help you if your 4yr old daughter draws you protecting her from bad guys and monsters.


----------



## groovetube

yowza. Brilliant...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

Which was the brilliant part? I feel like I'm back in 1985.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Which was the brilliant part? I feel like I'm back in 1985.


Are you wearing stirrup pants and an acid wash jean jacket?


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> yowza. Brilliant...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


lol

awesome


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Are you wearing stirrup pants and an acid wash jean jacket?


Nope--strictly New Wave, pal. I spit on acid wash!


----------



## groovetube

well that explains the MJ jacket then.


----------



## groovetube

So apparently, now, the buffoon and chief government apologizer for the robocall scandal that's brewing, is now saying that well, yeah maybe they did it and it was y'now, just a mistake.

Except, y'know Dean, it's a criminal act... mistake. It's the act that is the criminal offence. He then goes on to whine that he hasn't seen anyone that didn't vote because of it, so well that makes it ok.

The defence of this from the government, has gone from a complete joke, to really, really sad. For a government so insistent on their innocence in this, they sure are taking great pains to look guilty.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> So apparently, now, the buffoon and chief government apologizer for the robocall scandal that's brewing, is now saying that well, yeah maybe they did it and it was y'now, just a mistake.
> 
> Except, y'know Dean, it's a criminal act... mistake. It's the act that is the criminal offence. He then goes on to whine that he hasn't seen anyone that didn't vote because of it, so well that makes it ok.
> 
> The defence of this from the government, has gone from a complete joke, to really, really sad. For a government so insistent on their innocence in this, they sure are taking great pains to look guilty.


But...but gt...it was...a...a...ah mistake...that's it, sure, a mistake, that's the ticket, yeah.

"When you mke billions of cals you cn makw a fews mistaked tha translates in to hundredf of thousands of calls." Well at least the Dean of mistakes says on behalf of Our GLorious leader.


----------



## BigDL

Well more Jobs, Jobs, Jobs disappearing. Was this Air Canada's thank you to Minion Raitt and OGL for the helping hand.



CBCNews said:


> Two hundred workers from Aveos Fleet Performance Inc. blocked access to Air Canada's head office near Montreal's Trudeau Airport this morning as the private airplane maintenance company applied for bankruptcy protection after suddenly shutting down over the weekend.
> 
> The protest comes after Aveos, which maintains many of Air Canada's aircraft, posted notices on Sunday at its plants in Montreal, Winnipeg and Vancouver, locking out at least 2,400 workers and telling them not to return to work.


It's good those corporate tax cuts are going to jobs loses? 

Locked-out Aveos workers block Air Canada's Montreal HQ - Canada - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Conservative ads slam Rae as 'failure,' praise Harper | CTV News

man. Talk about desperate.

Are they sure they want to hang job losses and the highest deficit in Ontario on Rae? Really? 

Good way to change the channel I guess. Which these cons seems very good at...


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well more Jobs, Jobs, Jobs disappearing. Was this Air Canada's thank you to Minion Raitt and OGL for the helping hand.
> 
> It's good those corporate tax cuts are going to jobs loses?


Corporate tax cuts can't counter the deleterious effects of union workers.



groovetube said:


> Conservative ads slam Rae as 'failure,' praise Harper | CTV News
> 
> man. Talk about desperate.


It's a waste of money to paint Rae as a failure. He's doing that for free already.


----------



## groovetube

as will be the money to counter the cons Harper as an equal failure. Same accusations of, lost jobs, and skyrocketing spending/deficits.


----------



## mrjimmy

Just keeping abreast of Alberta politics...

Canada News: Alberta Wildrose campaign bus raises eyebrows - thestar.com


----------



## BigDL

I understand the suggested anatomy with the placement of the tires, my question, what body part, does the Wildrose represent?


----------



## kps

Them thar wildflowers have been bloom'n in AB fer a while now...

Don't be surprised if they take the next provincial election or will come so close that it'll scare the bejeebus out of the provincial Cons.


----------



## groovetube

well that's certainly one way to campaign!


----------



## mrjimmy

They really did make a boob of themselves.

(can't believe I wrote and posted this comment... must go back to work)


----------



## i-rui

Robocalls: Who is Rick McKnight? No one seems to know who the mystery RackNine employee really is | News | National Post

it seems the trail may be leading back to racknine


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

Buh-dump!

Will someone hire Mackinnon a writer?


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


CM, just wait ............. PM Harper will do away with this sort of Senate. That is why he appointed so many conservatives to the Senate. Someday, he will call upon them to end their "upper chamber" status, and then he will call upon the Canadian people and the provinces to support this amendment to the Canadian Constitution. You shall see. It shall come to pass. "So long as the grasses grow in Spring, and the waters flow, and the wind shall blow" from coast to coast to coast, trust in PM Harper to keep his word.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Bob Rae attack ad shows it’s a Liberal revival the Tories fear most - The Globe and Mail

Just confirms what I have always thought, the cons are more afraid of Bob Rae than anyone else in the current makeup of the opposition parties. If all they have to throw is huge job losses and record deficits at Rae, well, they might consider the glass house they're in, and the fact that I doubt Rae is as politically stupid as the last 2...


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Bob Rae attack ad shows it’s a Liberal revival the Tories fear most - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Just confirms what I have always thought, the cons are more afraid of Bob Rae than anyone else in the current makeup of the opposition parties. If all they have to throw is huge job losses and record deficits at Rae, well, they might consider the glass house they're in, and the fact that I doubt Rae is as politically stupid as the last 2...


Uh, yeah, right groove:

Scott Boyd: 2012 Outlook for Canada's Economy? Not Too Shabby.

TD upgrades Canadian economic outlook as euro fears fade and stimulus provides boost | News | Financial Post

Canada's economy poised for another year of solid growth in 2012: RBC | CanadianBusiness.com


----------



## groovetube

you need to reread the past again Sinc.I'd suggest reading the rest of that article carefully too, because, you don't live in Ontario...

and btw it doesn't hurt that the US is showing surprising growth considering it's huge fall.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you need to reread the past again Sinc.I'd suggest reading the rest of that article carefully too, because, you don't live in Ontario...
> 
> and btw it doesn't hurt that the US is showing surprising growth considering it's huge fall.


What surprising growth? The surprise is that the growth is so moderate and has taken so long.


----------



## groovetube

after the biggest economic crash since the great depression, and you expected it to bounce right on back in less than 4 years? 

Well that explains your completely naive positions I see here.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Bob Rae attack ad shows it’s a Liberal revival the Tories fear most - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Just confirms what I have always thought, the cons are more afraid of Bob Rae than anyone else in the current makeup of the opposition parties. If all they have to throw is huge job losses and record deficits at Rae, well, they might consider the glass house they're in, and the fact that I doubt Rae is as politically stupid as the last 2...


Now I was of the opinion that the Cons were trying to change the channel. The change channel thing may also be true. With the ND Party to pick someone new what to do, what to do? Liberals are the easy mark.

Seem Our Glorious Strategist is kind of a one trick pony. The vile advertising trick is getting old, me thinks the base may like it but the reference is old and tired and the greater population will not be affected by such unimaginative slurs.


----------



## groovetube

I agree. Their base will always swallow it. But I do think it's getting old with the rest of the population as you said.

I think it serves a few purposes here at once in terms of changing the channel.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> after the biggest economic crash since the great depression, and you expected it to bounce right on back in less than 4 years?


I expected it to do much better, yes. Because the crash wasn't anything like the Great Depression--and even that would have ended sooner without FDR's meddling.


----------



## groovetube

As I said, since you expected it to bounce right on back after such a huge crash, you're obviously very naive.

And wow! This crash isn't anything like the great depression?

Tell us more!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I expected it to do much better, yes. Because the crash wasn't anything like the Great Depression--and even that would have ended sooner without FDR's meddling.


FDR's "meddling"??? The various New Deal programs were Roosevelt's responses to the Great Depression, and focused upon the "3 Rs": Relief, Recovery, and Reform (i.e., Relief for the unemployed and poor; Recovery of the economy to normal levels; and Reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression). Even Ronald Reagan began his political career as a liberal Democrat, and was an admirer of Franklin Roosevelt, and an active supporter of New Deal policies.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> As I said, since you expected it to bounce right on back after such a huge crash, you're obviously very naive.
> 
> And wow! This crash isn't anything like the great depression?
> 
> Tell us more!



You'd have to prove that it WAS like the Great Depression. Not even close. Do a little historical research and then try to make your case. Start with unemployment numbers.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> As I said, since you expected it to bounce right on back after such a huge crash, you're obviously very naive.
> 
> And wow! This crash isn't anything like the great depression?
> 
> Tell us more!


Most things I read show that we are in grave danger of slipping back in (if we ever got out in the first place). Guess it all just depends on your interpretation.


----------



## groovetube

But first, you'll to show where I said it WAS like the great depression.

I suggest reading comprehension 101 for you.

Seems a usual thing for you.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> FDR's "meddling"??? The various New Deal programs were Roosevelt's responses to the Great Depression, and focused upon the "3 Rs": Relief, Recovery, and Reform (i.e., Relief for the unemployed and poor; Recovery of the economy to normal levels; and Reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression). Even Ronald Reagan began his political career as a liberal Democrat, and was an admirer of Franklin Roosevelt, and an active supporter of New Deal policies.


Thank goodness Reagan got his head on straight. The meddling with the economy stretched the Depression to well over a decade. Only WWII inadvertently turned the country around.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> You'd have to prove that it WAS like the Great Depression. Not even close. Do a little historical research and then try to make your case. Start with unemployment numbers.


We are in agreement here, Macfury. This is why the various programs during FDR's first 100 days and first term were so important to millions upon millions of Americans.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Thank goodness Reagan got his head on straight. The meddling with the economy stretched the Depression to well over a decade. Only WWII inadvertently turned the country around.


Once again, read your history. Granted, WWII ended the great unemployment situation as the nation mobilized, but the "meddling" you speak of saved the lives of millions.


----------



## groovetube

that's just mean G.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Once again, read your history. Granted, WWII ended the great unemployment situation as the nation mobilized, but the "meddling" you speak of saved the lives of millions.


Beyond immediate short-term assistance, it just stretched the pain over a longer period.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Most things I read show that we are in grave danger of slipping back in (if we ever got out in the first place). Guess it all just depends on your interpretation.


very true.

The problem is, the right wing (and sadly, many democrats) solutions generally involve insulating the very rich, and raping and pillaging of the majority of Americans.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> that's just mean G.


I guess the truth hurts some of us, gt. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Beyond immediate short-term assistance, it just stretched the pain over a longer period.


Now you are just being foolish. The notion that FDR "streched the pain over a longer period of time" is not supported by the facts of history. Immediate short-term assistance was given, but the magnitude of the situation required longer term solutions as well. Realize that there was a great deal of suffering felt by millions of Americans during the Depression ................. now think about how this would have been far, far worse had it not been for FDR's New Deal. Just speak with someone from the US who lived through the Depression and truly suffered ............. and ask him/her what impact one of the various New Deal programs had in improving his/her life.


----------



## Dr.G.

Just realized that this exchange is in the Canadian Political thread. Wrong place for a discussion about FDR.


----------



## bryanc

Dr.G. said:


> Just speak with someone from the US who lived through the Depression and truly suffered ............. and ask him/her what impact one of the various New Deal programs had in improving his/her life.


What you're failing to understand here is the cognitive dissonance MF suffers when the government helps people. Government = BAD. Only the Invisible Hand of the Free Market has the power to truly help people, so anytime the government interferes with the market it has to be bad... even when it's good.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> What you're failing to understand here is the cognitive dissonance MF suffers when the government helps people. Government = BAD. Only the Invisible Hand of the Free Market has the power to truly help people, so anytime the government interferes with the market it has to be bad... even when it's good.


True, but I have to admit that I tire with this back and forth with Macfury over historical facts. He is free to interpret them as he wishes, but that does not change the reality of these facts. I will even support his freedom of expression to views that I feel are insensitive (e.g., his comments about Hitler). Still, I have to back away and realize that there is no sense in arguing with him over certain issues, especially when he uses his own brand of Newspeak. 

So, just as I have given up beer, fast-food, pizza :-( and other junk foods in hopes of losing some weight, I have to back away from senseless debates with Macfury. Hopefully, but doing all of these things, I shall lose weight and not lose my mind.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

That FDRs record is unassailable is nonsense. I agree with this view:

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate / UCLA Newsroom



> "High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns," Ohanian said. "As we've seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market's self-correcting forces."


----------



## CubaMark

*Perhaps this is more to MacFury's liking?*



(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> True, but I have to admit that I tire with this back and forth with Macfury over historical facts. He is free to interpret them as he wishes, but that does not change the reality of these facts. I will even support his freedom of expression to views that I feel are insensitive (e.g., his comments about Hitler). Still, I have to back away and realize that there is no sense in arguing with him over certain issues, especially when he uses his own brand of Newspeak.
> 
> So, just as I have given up beer, fast-food, pizza :-( and other junk foods in hopes of losing some weight, I have to back away from senseless debates with Macfury. Hopefully, but doing all of these things, I shall lose weight and not lose my mind.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


It's the first step toward on-line happiness Dr.G.!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> It's the first step toward on-line happiness Dr.G.!


Amen, brother. Paix, mon ami.

"Let us be grateful to people
who make us happy, they are 
the charming gardeners who
make our souls blossom."
Marcel Proust


----------



## groovetube

It's sometimes a little entertaining, and yes, it gets very tiring.

In the end though, it shows just how much credibility that sort of position really has!


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> It's sometimes a little entertaining, and yes, it gets very tiring.
> 
> In the end though, it shows just how much credibility that sort of position really has!


Thankfully there is a quick and easy method to end all of the torture, to end all the madness.


----------



## screature

*NDP Leadership race... hohum...?*

So with the NDP being the Official Opposition why is it exactly that literally no one here is talking about the leadership race that will be decided this week-end? Seems all the lefties here aren't too interested in the internal workings of their own party of choice...


----------



## groovetube

Our own party?

I think Paul dewar is the best of the lot. But time will tell. Brian Topp unfortunately has the charisma of a turnip.


----------



## BigDL

Those with a membership *will have a say* at the convention unlike the Liberal and Conservatives. The lefties to centrists *will have their votes counted.*

So why not unleash the views, that some really need to hear, naysayers on the right of the spectrum?


----------



## bryanc

I've never been a member of any political party, and no party is entitled to my vote. I'll judge the leader of the NDP when they choose one. From what I've hard so far, it sounds like Mulcair is the runaway favourite, and that he plans to lead the party towards the centre (causing gnashing of teeth about loosing the party's principles). As the Conservatives and Liberals have been moving ever further to the Right, this seems like a sound strategy for the NDP. But when I have voted for them, I've voted knowing that they would not form a government, and was therefore voting for them as "the conscience of Parliament." So I'm not certain this shift away from their social principles will really benefit them as much as one might think.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> I've never been a member of any political party, and no party is entitled to my vote. I'll judge the leader of the NDP when they choose one. From what I've hard so far, it sounds like Mulcair is the runaway favourite, and that he plans to lead the party towards the centre (causing gnashing of teeth about loosing the party's principles). As the Conservatives and Liberals have been moving ever further to the Right, this seems like a sound strategy for the NDP. But when I have voted for them, I've voted knowing that they would not form a government, and was therefore voting for them as "the conscience of Parliament." So I'm not certain this shift away from their social principles will really benefit them as much as one might think.


Valid points, bryanc. Still, I don't think that they will stray from being "the conscience of Parliament". I do feel that they will have some more realistic policies and positions, and not be seen as the "union-based/backing" party. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Our own party?*
> 
> I think Paul dewar is the best of the lot. But time will tell. Brian Topp unfortunately has the charisma of a turnip.


"Own party of choice" if it isn't yours fine... What's the question supposed to be asking?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Those with a membership* will have a say at the convention unlike the Liberal and Conservatives. The lefties to centrists will have their votes counted.
> 
> So why not unleash the views, that some really need to hear, naysayers on the right of the spectrum?


Was the way with the now defunct Reform as well, it was only when merging with the PCs as part of thier demands that delegates became the way of doing things for the newly formed CPC.

So why not say something among supporters... it isn't worth talking about unless you want to slag someone or something?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I've never been a member of any political party, and no party is entitled to my vote. I'll judge the leader of the NDP when they choose one. From what I've hard so far, it sounds like Mulcair is the runaway favourite, and that he plans to lead the party towards the centre (causing gnashing of teeth about loosing the party's principles). *As the Conservatives and Liberals have been moving ever further to the Right,* this seems like a sound strategy for the NDP. But when I have voted for them, I've voted knowing that they would not form a government, and was therefore voting for them as "the conscience of Parliament." So I'm not certain this shift away from their social principles will really benefit them as much as one might think.


I guess it depends on your notion of what constitutes the right as many CPC supporters see the party as moving more to the centre.

Mulcair wants them to form government and thus the reason for the move to the centre... Let's face it if it wasn't for the Orange tide in Quebec the NDP would have been also rans once again and it is unlikely to be a repeat in Quebec in 2015 so if they want to form government they have to start appealing to Canadians outside their typical base. Just as the Cons did by putting huge efforts into wining seats in Ontario.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Was the way with the now defunct reform as well, it was only when merging with the PCs as part of thier demands that dlegates became the way of doing things for the newly formed CPC.
> 
> So why not say something among supporters... it isn't worth talking about unless you want to slag someone or something?


in general, it's been a pretty ho hum campaign. Well except for the recent outburst by broadbent on Mulcair.

I think the recent slo mo car crash by the government in power has been far bigger news.

So much so I haven't seen any "anti lefties" pointing out the ndp campaign either.


----------



## i-rui

i'd like to see Nathan Cullen become party leader. Young, smart & progressive.

Unfortunately it probably won't happen.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> So much so I haven't seen any "anti lefties" pointing out the ndp campaign either.


Because it isn't news.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Because it isn't news.


boy that was a brilliant observation! :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Because it isn't news.


I agree. It's mostly uninteresting. Hence the lack of discussion about it here.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> i'd like to see Nathan Cullen become party leader. Young, smart & progressive.
> 
> Unfortunately it probably won't happen.


It might happen as well as any other scenario. The media's talking heads, are usually talking out of their asses, when it comes to the internal workings of the ND Party. 

The only guy on the outs, by the sounds of things, is Martin Singh. The rest, I would not count out his/her chances, at this point.


----------



## screature

It will be interesting on many fronts if Mulcair wins... within the Party, in the House and how Canadians take to him.

He is about as warm and cuddly as a witches t*t, but he is smart and tough. He has ties to Quebec but not in the rest of the country and wants to realign the party more to the centre, so all in all even though I can't stand the guy his winning could prove to be very interesting indeed...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> It might happen as well as any other scenario. The media's talking heads, are usually* talking out of their asses, when it comes to the internal workings of the ND Party.*
> 
> The only guy on the outs, by the sounds of things, is Martin Singh. The rest, I would not count out his/her chances, at this point.


How more so than the internal workings of any other party?


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> It will be interesting on many fronts if Mulcair wins... within the Party, in the House and how Canadians take to him.
> 
> He is about as warm and cuddly as a witches t*t, but he is smart and tough. He has ties to Quebec but not in the rest of the country and wants to realign the party more to the centre, so all in all even though I can't stand the guy his winning could prove to be very interesting indeed...


Charisma, while very helpful, is not quite a necessary as a shrewd ability to read and use the public mood to achieve one's aims.... as I understand was the case for William Lyon MacKenzie King.

I don't know Muclair well, but from what I do know, he could definitely prove interesting.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> *Charisma, while very helpful*, is not quite a necessary as a shrewd ability to read and use the public mood to achieve one's aims.... as I understand was the case for William Lyon MacKenzie King.
> 
> I don't know Muclair well, but from what I do know, he could definitely prove interesting.


It isn't so much a lack of charisma as being decidedly bristly and at times very arrogant and unlikable, I mean kinda like you want to punch the guy unlikeable.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> It isn't so much a lack of charisma as being decidedly bristly and at times very arrogant and unlikable, I mean kinda like you want to punch the guy unlikeable.


You mean like Stephan Harper?


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> You mean like Stephan Harper?


ha ha ha ha. :lmao:



Sonal said:


> Charisma, while very helpful, is not quite a necessary as a shrewd ability to read and use the public mood to achieve one's aims.... as I understand was the case for William Lyon MacKenzie King.
> 
> I don't know Muclair well, but from what I do know, he could definitely prove interesting.


I would agree strongly on that. Stephen Harper has proven that very well so far.


----------



## Sonal

Good lord, what an election that could be in the future.... the cold and unlikeable Harper, the arrogant and bristly Muclair, and whatever loser the Liberals come up with.


----------



## groovetube

Rae?


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Rae?


Against Harper and Mulcair, will Ontario vote for Rae? I wonder.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> You mean like Stephan Harper?


Yeah I figured such a post would be forth coming but compared to Mulcair, Harper is a pussycat. Mulcair's offices are in the building I work in and the way he treats the staff in the cafeteria is truly something to behold... rude, arrogant and an attitude of superiority, very haughty if things are busy and he doesn't get his order NOW! 

I have no time for people like that... and quite frankly he isn't well liked among the "common folk" who work there, they more or less have the attitude "well it is Mulcair what else can you expect". 

Meanwhile other MPs who have an equally big ego and arrogance about them (who I also don't like) like Peter Julian are at least decent and polite to the staff in the same cafeteria...

Seems Harper is most disliked by those who have never met him and know nothing about the man other than that which they think he represents.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Against Harper and Mulcair, *will Ontario vote for Rae*? I wonder.


Not many over the age of 40.


----------



## groovetube

hard call. It'll be a tough slog for Rae, probably in many regions. But the battering ram Harper has is the very same battering ram Rae can use on Harper! Don't forget, Ontario isn't doing all that well, and they'll try to pin it ALL on McGuinty, (and he should take some blame for sure...) but that would also be admitting the cons are totally ineffectual in dealing with Ontario too.

The difference though, is Rae is a very savvy politician with far more experience than even Harper has, and isn't going to take any of the crap Harper tosses sitting down like the last two train wrecks.

Whatever the outcome, you can be guaranteed it'll be a pretty serious knife fight.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> hard call. It'll be a tough slog for Rae, probably in many regions. But the battering ram Harper has is the very same battering ram Rae can use on Harper! Don't forget, Ontario isn't doing all that well, and they'll try to pin it ALL on McGuinty, (and he should take some blame for sure...) but that would also be admitting the cons are totally ineffectual in dealing with Ontario too.
> 
> The difference though, is *Rae is a very savvy politician* with far more experience than even Harper has, and isn't going to take any of the crap Harper tosses sitting down like the last two train wrecks.
> 
> Whatever the outcome, you can be guaranteed it'll be a pretty serious knife fight.


Yep, changing your political allegiances for personal gain is very savvy indeed.


----------



## groovetube

oh come on. That just sounds like sour grapes.

It isn't like he joined the "winning team"...


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Yep changing your political allegiances for personal gain is very savvy indeed.


Seems to be the way of things. 

Even though they didn't changed parties, both Layton and Harper have moved closer to the centre to increase their appeal.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> Seems to be the way of things.
> 
> Even though they didn't changed parties, both Layton and Harper have moved closer to the centre to increase their appeal.


...or packaged their ideas and policies, to be more palatable, for the centre.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh come on. That just sounds like sour grapes.
> *
> It isn't like he joined the "winning team"...*


But it was the team with the greater seat count when he decided to take the leap into Federal politics and run for the Liberal leadership... seemed he thought it could be a shortcut to becoming PM and the first Provincial leader to ever do so...

Seemed he was wrong and his political savvy may not be that great after all and just doing what is best for Bob Rae comes first and foremost... It seems his history is to go from bad to worse... time will tell if he can reverse that trend.


----------



## i-rui

well it looks like attack ads work on the conservative base. locked and loaded on Rae right on cue.


----------



## groovetube

yup. They sure don't like him, for good reason it seems.

If he was so lame, why bother? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

He's like one of those Bozo punching bags--you can't resist socking it once in awhile!


----------



## groovetube

as long as that works for -you-, it's really ok.


----------



## groovetube

Canadians trust NDP to govern, poll finds - The Globe and Mail

What happened to a more... conservative canada?


----------



## Macfury

The poll was strategically taken just prior to the leadership convention, with the Jack Layton glow still on the party. Near the bottom of the article:



> The survey also asked those participants who said they had voted for the NDP in the spring election why they chose the party over the other options. More than one in four – 26.7 per cent – said they voted for the local New Democrat candidate because of Mr. Layton. Just 17.7 per cent said they were drawn to the party’s policies or platform.
> 
> “If you were an NDP partisan, you would probably be disappointed at that number,” Mr. Nanos said.


----------



## groovetube

oh, the leadership campaign no one's talking about?

right.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> oh, the leadership campaign no one's talking about?
> 
> right.


Are you being deliberately obtuse? Even though it's pretty unimportant stuff, once the new leader is chosen, some newspapers will cover it. That will officially end the Layton dynasty.


----------



## groovetube

No, I'm deliberately mocking your statement.



Macfury said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse? Even though it's pretty unimportant stuff, once the new leader is chosen, some newspapers will cover it. That will officially end the Layton dynasty.


Sounds like you have an alter somewhere dedicated to this sincere desire.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> No, I'm deliberately mocking your statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have an alter somewhere dedicated to this sincere desire.


That makes no sense. What's are you getting at?


----------



## groovetube

oh macfury. You certainly are the card around here arn't ya.

Read your own posts once in a while, perhaps it'll come to you. Or not.

No matter!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Oh oh impersonating elections canada and the Liberal party?

'Pierre Poutine' recorded call on behalf of Liberal candidate: Elections Canada

We're closing in Harper!

Brought to you by JNN - weeding through CON wrongdoing since 2011 - chit


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Thankfully there is a quick and easy method to end all of the torture, to end all the madness.


Late in posting this... Sorry busy with real world un-retired stuff...

Too bad you didn't "realize" this earlier before you repeatedly made an a** of yourself and harassed another member here on ehMac... 

Somehow I think you enjoyed it very much, truth be told IMO.


----------



## bryanc

*Should the NDP and the Liberals merge?*

If the NDP are moving towards the centre, and neither the Liberals nor the NDP have much 'brand' to protect, perhaps it's time for them to consider a merger? Furthermore, given that our brain-dead first-past-the-post system can only really fairly distinguish voter preference between 2 choices, a 2 party system might be better.

What would you name the new party? Liberal Democrats? The Progressive Party? The ABC (anyone but Conservative) party?

At any rate, it would seem to me that if the Liberals and NDP don't find some way to stop splitting the vote between them, it'll be King Harper forever.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> If the NDP are moving towards the centre, and neither the Liberals nor the NDP have much 'brand' to protect, perhaps it's time for them to consider a merger? Furthermore, given that our brain-dead first-past-the-post system can only really fairly distinguish voter preference between 2 choices, a 2 party system might be better.
> 
> What would you name the new party? Liberal Democrats? The Progressive Party? The ABC (anyone but Conservative) party?
> 
> At any rate, it would seem to me that if the Liberals and NDP don't find some way to stop splitting the vote between them, it'll be King Harper forever.


Or, maybe the Liberals can actually occupy the centre for a change with some good old-fashioned "Blue Liberals" at the helm.

Then they can take the moderate right and the moderate left, and leave the NDP and the Conservatives as voice of the (relatively) extreme.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If the NDP are moving towards the centre, and neither the Liberals nor the NDP have much 'brand' to protect, perhaps it's time for them to consider a merger? Furthermore, given that our brain-dead first-past-the-post system can only really fairly distinguish voter preference between 2 choices, a 2 party system might be better.
> 
> What would you name the new party? Liberal Democrats? The Progressive Party? The ABC (anyone but Conservative) party?
> 
> At any rate, it would seem to me that if the Liberals and NDP don't find some way to stop splitting the vote between them, it'll be King Harper forever.


Honestly, do you think they have THAT much in common? While I might occasionally vote for a Liberal, I would never vote for an NDP candidate--and never vote for anyone in a merged party. Both of them have brands that I see as entirely distinctive.

And what's the talk about a two-party system? Last time I checked there were five viable parties competing for votes.


----------



## groovetube

that'll depend on who takes the reigns of the ndp party.

And I am no fan of a 2 party system at all. I'd rather see Harper take another minority and maintain the number of choices we have. I don't want the US system.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I am no fan of a 2 party system at all.


Or the one party system.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> that'll depend on who takes the reigns of the ndp party.
> 
> And I am no fan of a 2 party system at all. I'd rather see Harper take another minority and maintain the number of choices we have. I don't want the US system.


Our system is not without its faults, especially one glaring fault. Any system that can allow a provincial party bent on separating from the country to hold seats, and even official opposition status, in our parliament is pretty sad. That needs to be fixed to prevent it from ever happening again.


----------



## groovetube

proportional representation is a good idea.

If Canadians were truly conservative that would be reflected.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *proportional representation is a good idea.*
> 
> If Canadians were truly conservative that would be reflected.


When presented with the opportunity to vote for it as an electoral means Ontario rejected it so certainly not every one agrees that it is a good idea. Like any idea it depends on how it would be implemented and there are differing points of view as ii how it would work. At any rate I think the way it was proposed to work in Ontario, a lot of people didn't understand it and preferred to stick with the devil they know rather than opting for a system that seemed unclear to them.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Our system is not without its faults, especially one glaring fault. Any system that can allow a provincial party bent on separating from the country to hold seats, and even official opposition status, in our parliament is pretty sad. That needs to be fixed to prevent it from ever happening again.


No argument from me on that front...


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Or the one party system.


The worst of all.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Honestly, do you think they have THAT much in common? While I might occasionally vote for a Liberal, I would never vote for an NDP candidate--and never vote for anyone in a merged party. Both of them have brands that I see as entirely distinctive.
> 
> And what's the talk about a two-party system? Last time I checked there were five viable parties competing for votes.


Agreed. Not with the current CPC, but with the past PCs the PCs and Liberals had more in common with each other than the Liberals and the NDP.

The NDP and Liberals wouldn't make for happy bed fellows and there would be constant in fighting. I think in terms of internal party politics it would be a train wreck in slow motion.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Or, maybe the Liberals can actually occupy the centre for a change with some good old-fashioned "Blue Liberals" at the helm.
> 
> Then they can take the moderate right and the moderate left, and leave the NDP and the Conservatives as voice of the (relatively) extreme.


On the other side of the same coin if you got rid of Harper and the Harperites at the top of the Party, with some good old fashioned Red Tory at the helm the CPC could occupy the centre and win a real popular majority and not just a majority of seats.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Agreed. Not ithe with the current CPC, but with the past PCs the PCs and Liberals had more in common with each other than the Liberals and the NDP.
> 
> The NDP and Liberals wouldn't make for happy bed fellows and there would be constant in fighting. I think in terms of internal party politics it would be a train wreck in slow motion.


which version of the liberals? I can't quite agree with you because that's a pretty broad brush you're using. The differences between the original reform party, and the brian mulroney progressive conservatives, were significant. Clearly there has been a very big shift to the center for the Harper conservatives (because they basically -had- to to get power and hold on to it), and the liberals these days are not by any means the red tory Chretien/martin liberals. There's far more in common between the liberals now and the now ndp (depending on who they choose as leader today) than I see there being with the liberals and the Harper conservatives. Most definitely. Infighting should the liberals/ndp merge? Absolutely. There's been plenty in Harper's new conservatives, he has been skilful in whipping them with a huge whip and stifling anything right from the start. I don't expect an ndp/liberal merger, anytime soon.



screature said:


> On the other side of the same coin if you got rid of Harper and the Harperites at the top of the Party, with some good old fashioned Red Tory at the helm the CPC could occupy the centre and win a real popular majority and not just a majority of seats.


Well, in theory maybe. But Harper isn't going anywhere, anytime soon, so your wish both isn't feasible right now, nor will it happen.

The liberals however, are leaderless, and have a leadership convention coming up. So, a red tory is quite possible.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> which version of the liberals? I can't quite agree with you because that's a* pretty broad brush you're using*. The differences between the original reform party, and the brian mulroney progressive conservatives, were significant. Clearly there has been a very big shift to the center for the Harper conservatives (because they basically -had- to to get power and hold on to it), and the liberals these days are not by any means the red tory Chretien/martin liberals. *There's far more in common between the liberals now and the now ndp (depending on who they choose as leader today) than I see there being with the liberals and the Harper conservatives*. Most definitely. Infighting should the liberals/ndp merge? Absolutely. *There's been plenty in Harper's new conservatives*, he has been skilful in whipping them with a huge whip and stifling anything right from the start. I don't expect an ndp/liberal merger, anytime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, in theory maybe. But Harper isn't going anywhere, anytime soon, so *your wish* both isn't feasible right now, nor will it happen.
> 
> The liberals however, are leaderless, and have a leadership convention coming up. So, a red tory is quite possible.


It *was* a broad statement and one from the past as I mentioned. 

When it comes to social policy the NDP and Libs have more common ground, in theory, as to the how, it is another matter and the devil is in the details. Fiscally any version of the right in Canada has *always* been closer to the Libs than any iteration of the NDP federally.

No doubt, but only because they have a common enemy not because they are really all that close fundamentally.

Actually there is very little, Peter MacKay is about the only one who matters that has been vocal, the Brad Trosts of the Party are the wing nut fringe and carry no clout as do the other handful of vocal right to lifers. There is very little in fighting in the Party because Harper has been successful and you don't mess with success.

Not a wish, just a theoretical observation... pretty obviously unless Harper runs off the rails it isn't going to come to pass for 2015, but one should never say never especially when it comes to politics.


----------



## groovetube

very little, that we've been able to be aware of. Big difference. Knowing the level of differences between the original reform party and the progressive conservatives, there had to be some real squirmishes. No bigger, no less than there would be in the ndp/liberals.

We're talking about possibly an ndp led by Mulcair who is closer to liberals, and the liberals, perhaps led by Rae.

'nuff said.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> On the other side of the same coin if you got rid of Harper and the Harperites at the top of the Party, with some good old fashioned Red Tory at the helm the CPC could occupy the centre and win a real popular majority and not just a majority of seats.


That could work too. 

Though it creates a bit of a vacuum at the far right, though maybe some version of the Wild Rose party will go Federal and fill in there.... or the far right will do what they did in the past and vote Conservative anyway because it's the closest they can get.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> very little, that we've been able to be aware of. Big difference. Knowing the level of differences between the original reform party and the progressive conservatives, there had to be some real squirmishes. No bigger, no less than there would be in the ndp/liberals.
> 
> We're talking about possibly an ndp led by Mulcair who is closer to liberals, and the liberals, perhaps led by Rae.
> 
> 'nuff said.


So your assumptions as to what may or may not go on behind closed doors is somehow more important than what we "aware of"? The CPC is very consolidated relative to the other parties, again as I said because Harper has been successful in holding onto power.

There were very substantial differences between the Reform and PCs but that is history now as Reform members make up less than 10% of the party.

Mulcair will always do what is best for Mulcair as will Rae and has been *publicly* demonstrated on more than one occasion by both of them. 

A merger could of course be possible but I see it as only a short term situation to get rid of Harper. If a united NDP and Liberal party came into power I would expect it to splinter and dissolve from within after one administration and there would be two parties again.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> That could work too.
> 
> *Though it creates a bit of a vacuum at the far right*, though maybe some version of the Wild Rose party will go Federal and fill in there.... or the far right will do what they did in the past and vote Conservative anyway because it's the closest they can get.


In terms of the "far" right I think there are actually very few in Canada just as there are very few on the "far" left. So I don't see it as creating a vacuum, but as you suggest those people on the fringes would either have to vote and/or run for the more moderate parties or form their own also ran fringe parties.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> So your assumptions as to what may or may not go on behind closed doors is somehow more important than what we "aware of"? The CPC is very consolidated relative to the other parties, again as I said because Harper has been successful in holding onto power.
> 
> There were very substantial differences between the Reform and PCs but that is history now as Reform members make up less than 10% of the party.
> 
> Mulcair will always do what is best for Mulcair as will Rae and has been *publicly* demonstrated on more than one occasion by both of them.
> 
> A merger could of course be possible but I see it as only a short term situation to get rid of Harper. If a united NDP and Liberal party came into power I would expect it to splinter and dissolve from within after one administration and there would be two parties again.


oh come on. That's your CPC eyes talking here. The Harperites had just as much chance of splintering as the ndp/liberals would of splintering.

Rae is known to support a merger, and Mulcair, is simply mouthing the words right now. It won't come about (if...) without a lot of screaming and posturing, and it will depend on wether they had a leader who can squelch anyone from speaking publicly about -any- of it a successfully as Harper has. Harper has done extremely well in whipping his party together and running it with full top down control.

I depends on many factors. Party differences in both cases are a given.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> That could work too.
> 
> Though it creates a bit of a vacuum at the far right, though maybe some version of the Wild Rose party will go Federal and fill in there.... or the far right will do what they did in the past and vote Conservative anyway because it's the closest they can get.


As Harper continues to move to the center in order to hold onto power, eventually some will get frustrated, and that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *oh come on. That's your CPC eyes talking here.* The Harperites had just as much chance of splintering as the ndp/liberals would of splintering.
> 
> Rae is known to support a merger, and Mulcair, is simply mouthing the words right now. It won't come about (if...) without a lot of screaming and posturing, and it will depend on wether they had a leader who can squelch anyone from speaking publicly about -any- of it a successfully as Harper has. Harper has done extremely well in whipping his party together and running it with full top down control.
> 
> I depends on many factors. Party differences in both cases are a given.


Whatever you say gt, you are always right and know me better than I know myself... Hard to have a reasoned conversation with you when you are always only too willing to make things personal rather than simply sticking to the topic. Have a nice week-end.


----------



## groovetube

that was hardly, personal screature. It's obvious to anyone here that you more than support the conservatives, and I simply pointed out that you are seeing this from the point of view of a conservative. That isn't, a slight by any means.

I've seen you get a little more personal than that in the past. 

As far as what will happen, no one can make any absolutes here at all. It really comes down to who are chosen as leaders of -both- parties, and if, they decide on a merger, are they strong enough as Harper was/is to whip the party into presenting a strong united front.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Our system is not without its faults, especially one glaring fault. Any system that can allow a provincial party bent on separating from the country to hold seats, and even official opposition status, in our parliament is pretty sad. That needs to be fixed to prevent it from ever happening again.


It was the false distortions in representation caused by our first past the post system that allowed the Bloc to attain enough seats to become the Official Opposition. If the Bloc's actual proportional percentage of the vote bore any relationship to the number of seats received they would have never become Opposition.

As I've said here many times, first past the post creates distorted and sometimes unpredictable results and does not represent the actual wishes of Canadian voters. The Bloc garnered Official Opposition status with 54 seats in Quebec in the 1993 election with only 13% of the national vote. 

In the same election the Reform Party received 52 seats with 18% of the national vote, the NDP got 9 seats with 7% of the vote and the now-defunct Progressive Conservatives got only 2 seats with 16%. The Bloc should have only been the 4th party in Parliament that election, not the second.

In the same election, Chretien and the Libs got a massive 177 seat majority with only 41% of the national vote. This is our first past the post electoral system in action.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> It was the false distortions in representation caused by our first past the post system that allowed the Bloc to attain enough seats to become the Official Opposition. If the Bloc's actual proportional percentage of the vote bore any relationship to the number of seats received they would have never become Opposition.


Except that SINC is referring to the constitutionality of a federal party whose sole concern is separation.


----------



## groovetube

He was?

Where? I don't see any mention of the constitution in his post.


----------



## Macfury

Read SINC's post again. If you need to see the word "constitution" to understand his post in context, I can't help you.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Except that SINC is referring to the constitutionality of a federal party whose sole concern is separation.


I wouldn't mind if it was a federal party, but face it, the Bloc was a PROVINCIAL party.


----------



## groovetube

That's idiotic. 

His post in no way specifically referred to the constitutionality of the bloc becoming the opposition party.

He -could- have meant it, but the post was general enough that it -could- have also meant our voting system.

It's not obvious at all.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I wouldn't mind if it was a federal party, but face it, the Bloc was a PROVINCIAL party.


Is a federal party required to run candidates in all provinces?

Did the reform party do so in the beginning?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> That's idiotic.
> 
> His post in no way specifically referred to the constitutionality of the bloc becoming the opposition party.
> 
> He -could- have meant it, but the post was general enough that it -could- have also meant our voting system.
> 
> It's not obvious at all.


It was not obvious to YOU, groovetube. But I'm good with the fact that everyone else understood it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Is a federal party required to run candidates in all provinces?
> 
> Did the reform party do so in the beginning?


The Bloc did not run a single candidate outside of Quebec, no comparison to the Reform party at all.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Except that SINC is referring to the constitutionality of a federal party whose sole concern is separation.


I know that. I think that preventing federal MPs from holding seats because they believe in seceding from the country would be wrong based on principles of free speech and thought and likely unconstitutional, as well. They were willing to do their other duties as Members of Parliament, representing their ridings and if most of the voters in those ridings thought that their MP should want to secede, so be it. 

I'm merely pointing out that it's the first past the post system that allowed the ridiculous situation where the 4 largest party in the country could attain Official Opposition status. With a proportional system we wouldn't need to institute a system that would enforce a particular political opinion on people who became MPs.


----------



## SINC

And I am pointing out that ANY electoral system should not allow ANY provincial party candidates to run for federal Parliament.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It was not obvious to YOU, groovetube. But I'm good with the fact that everyone else understood it.


oh can your pseudo intellectual nonsense. It was not obvious from the post at all.

Knowing if Sinc staunchly supported the FPTP system would be the -only- clue, not the post itself.

As was clearly pointed out, it was the FPTP system that very likely resulted in the bloc being so strong in seats. This could occur with -any- special interest group that wished to form a federal party and run. Not... just the bloc and their desire for separation.

Perhaps you're far, far too "inte-wectual' to see it.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> It was the false distortions in representation caused by our first past the post system that allowed the Bloc to attain enough seats to become the Official Opposition. If the Bloc's actual proportional percentage of the vote bore any relationship to the number of seats received they would have never become Opposition.
> 
> As I've said here many times, first past the post creates distorted and sometimes unpredictable results and does not represent the actual wishes of Canadian voters. The Bloc garnered Official Opposition status with 54 seats in Quebec in the 1993 election with only 13% of the national vote.
> 
> In the same election the Reform Party received 52 seats with 18% of the national vote, the NDP got 9 seats with 7% of the vote and the now-defunct Progressive Conservatives got only 2 seats with 16%. The Bloc should have only been the 4th party in Parliament that election, not the second.
> 
> In the same election, Chretien and the Libs got a massive 177 seat majority with only 41% of the national vote. *This is our first past the post electoral system in action*.


I remember it well...


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And I am pointing out that ANY electoral system should not allow ANY provincial party candidates to run for federal Parliament.


I share your distaste for having a party bent on separating this country as official opposition. The only problem is, at what point do you draw the line on free speech? (as was mentioned)

Technically there were a federal party, afaiKnew.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I know that. I think that preventing federal MPs from holding seats because they believe in seceding from the country would be wrong based on principles of free speech and thought and likely unconstitutional, as well. They were willing to do their other duties as Members of Parliament, representing their ridings and if most of the voters in those ridings thought that their MP should want to secede, so be it.
> 
> I'm merely pointing out that it's the first past the post system that allowed the ridiculous situation where the 4 largest party in the country could attain Official Opposition status. With a proportional system we wouldn't need to institute a system that would enforce a particular political opinion on people who became MPs.





SINC said:


> And I am pointing out that ANY electoral system should not allow ANY provincial party candidates to run for federal Parliament.


I have heard the same argument many times GA but it doesn't hold water for me....

I think a way around such issues could be to amend the Elections Canada Act such that if you do not run enough candidates in enough ridings to form a government you can't run as a *party* in a Federal election, i.e. you can still run as independents but not a party. (This is one reason why I agree with getting rid of the per vote subsidy...)

Or... sure a separatist party can run in a federal election but then they would have to run enough candidates to potentially form government.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> And I am pointing out that ANY electoral system should not allow ANY provincial party candidates to run for federal Parliament.


When the Reform party started they only ran in 72 Western ridings. Should they have been disqualified? Should a party that has a new idea but with only enough funds to run in a few ridings be prevented from running? 

And if your suggestion was implemented, a party like the Bloc could easily skirt it. All they'd have to do would be to pay for a Bloc candidate to be registered in every riding in the country.

While I don't agree with Quebec separatists, I believe they have every right to express their political views and run on those views if they can get votes. In a proportional system they'd actually have to convince a significant percentage of Canadians to agree with them to gain any real power, not 13%.


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> When the Reform party started they only ran in 72 Western ridings. Should they have been disqualified? Should a party that has a new idea but with only enough funds to run in a few ridings be prevented from running?
> 
> And if your suggestion was implemented, a party like the Bloc could easily skirt it. All they'd have to do would be to pay for a Bloc candidate to be registered in every riding in the country.
> 
> While I don't agree with Quebec separatists, I believe they have every right to express their political views and run on those views if they can get votes. In a proportional system they'd actually have to convince a significant percentage of Canadians to agree with them to gain any real power, not 13%.


exactly. Instead of limiting free speech, they should have to truly get enough votes to have that kind of representation in parliament.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Or... sure a separatist party can run in a federal election but then they would have to run enough candidates to potentially form government.


This. Without question.


----------



## groovetube

didn't the reform party start by fielding just over 70 candidates?

Hardly near enough to form a government.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> When the Reform party started they only ran in 72 Western ridings. Should they have been disqualified? Should a party that has a new idea but with only enough funds to run in a few ridings be prevented from running?
> 
> And if your suggestion was implemented, a party like the Bloc could easily skirt it*. All they'd have to do would be to pay for a Bloc candidate to be registered in every riding in the country.*
> 
> While I don't agree with Quebec separatists, I believe they have every right to express their political views and run on those views if they can get votes. In a proportional system they'd actually have to convince a significant percentage of Canadians to agree with them to *gain any real power*, not 13%.


With 4 parties they had the "potential" of forming government.... as for your next paragraph, I agree but my criteria would not be as harsh as yours... but make them do it by law if they are to be a federal *party*.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> With 4 parties they had the "potential" of forming government.... as for your next paragraph, I agree but my criteria would not be as harsh as yours... but make them do it by law if they are to be a federal *party*.


Simply and easily skirted, as I mentioned above, for a party with enough cash to register in as many ridings as necessary.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

On the robocall front, it appears that Elections Canada has the goods on Pierre Poutine, but is keeping that name secret until they've dug up more info. I hope they are able to squeeze that Poutine good.

Elections Canada unearths "Poutine's" aborted robo-call posing as Liberals - The Globe and Mail

The really interesting thing here is that it has been revealed that RackNine had an exclusivity contract with the Conservative Party during the last election. This means that the infamous Pierre Poutine, couldn't have used RackNine services for his mischief, (which now includes a fake Liberal call spoofing the Lib candidate's office phone number) without authorization from the Conservative Party of Canada. The head of RackNine has stated now that the mysterious Poutine was able to convince him that he had this authorization.

And also interesting, the head of Elections Canada has been allowed to address Parliament. The Government gave him time to speak on March 29. This just happens by mere chance to be the morning of the new federal budget, when all the major media will be in lock-up receiving the details of that budget.

Clever, those Cons are, they think.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Simply and easily skirted, as I mentioned above, for a party with enough cash to register in as many ridings as necessary.


Not "skirted" at all just it should be part of the *rules* to be a federal party and lets see how long a party can keep it up if they have to keep doing it without a per vote subsidy to fatten their coffers? Hmmm, shall we...?

And if it is so *easily* "skirted" why would you be against such a requirement?


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> On the robocall front, it appears that Elections Canada has the goods on Pierre Poutine, but is keeping that name secret until they've dug up more info. I hope they are able to squeeze that Poutine good.
> 
> Elections Canada unearths "Poutine's" aborted robo-call posing as Liberals - The Globe and Mail
> 
> The really interesting thing here is that it has been revealed that RackNine had an exclusivity contract with the Conservative Party during the last election. This means that the infamous Pierre Poutine, *couldn't have used RackNine services for his mischief, (which now includes a fake Liberal call spoofing the Lib candidate's office phone number) without authorization from the Conservative Party of Canada.* The head of RackNine has stated now that the mysterious Poutine was able to convince him that he had this authorization.
> 
> And also interesting, the head of Elections Canada has been allowed to address Parliament. The Government gave him time to speak on March 29. This just happens by mere chance to be the morning of the new federal budget, when all the major media will be in lock-up receiving the details of that budget.
> 
> Clever, those Cons are, they think.


A very false assumption on your part... all they had to do was *claim* they were working for the Cons and even if they were it implies nothing bigger than a a rogue individual and not higher party authorization as you strongly suggest...



> The cost for these May 2, 2011, calls was $162.10, Elections Canada said in court filings.


Yep them's real big bucks involved there... smells of wide scale scandal and corruption to me...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Not "skirted" at all just it should be part of the *rules* to be a federal party and lets see how long a party can keep it up if they have to keep doing it without a per vote subsidy to fatten their coffers? Hmmm, shall we...?
> 
> And if it is so *easily* "skirted" why would you be against such a requirement?


A) The fees would be chicken feed for the Bloc or any other party that gets significant support to afford.

B) Against it because it would be ineffective for the stated purpose, but would affect the ability of smaller parties to run under a party banner. You'd need at least $70K or so to run as a party.

C) This idea is just a form of useless spackle to cover a huge hole that first past the post creates, where a regional party's small amount of support is distorted into a massive amount of seats.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> A very false assumption on your part... all they had to do was *claim* they were working for the Cons and even if they were it implies nothing bigger than a a rogue individual and not higher party authorization as you strongly suggest...


No assumption here. I guess we'll see what form of proof was provided to convince RackNine CEO Meier that Poutine/Jones had authorization.



screature said:


> Yep them's real big bucks involved there... smells of wide scale scandal and corruption to me...


Robocalls are cheap, which is why they are used so much. The machines can call 200,000 numbers per hour. The particular amount that EC uncovered got Poutine to 7,500 or so phones in Guelph, not insignificant.


----------



## BigDL

What a silly concept. 

How could the Charter's provisions of freedom of speech and freedom of association be so circumvented as to deny any group the right to peacefully assemble and to run for the Parliament of the land to represent the views of a constituency.

Blinded by thoughts of being absolutely correct?


----------



## groovetube

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> No assumption here. I guess we'll see what form of proof was provided to convince RackNine CEO Meier that Poutine/Jones had authorization.
> 
> 
> Robocalls are cheap, which is why they are used so much. The machines can call 200,000 numbers per hour. The particular amount that EC uncovered got Poutine to 7,500 or so phones in Guelph, not insignificant.


it doesn't matter how much it cost. The act was still illegal, which seems to get lost here.


----------



## i-rui

3rd place for Nathan Cullen. :-(

looks like Mulcair will win. he'll be a good opposition leader since he'll be more of a bulldog than the others, but i'm not convinced he'd be a unifying leader.


----------



## groovetube

yes too bad for Cullen, I liked Cullen.

But sadly, to meet Harper, a real bulldog is required. The liberals may be in deeper trouble with Mulcair moving to the center.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> it doesn't matter how much it costed.


"Costed?" Really? "Costed" Really?


----------



## groovetube

thanks for pointing that out. thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## SINC

You are most welcome. (Note the proper use of capitals and lower case too.)


----------



## groovetube

well, I've neVer boasted aboot my writing skilz.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> well, I've neVer boasted aboot my writing skilz.


Right, and you continue to demonstrate your abilities.


----------



## groovetube

we all have our moments. It's a good thing this isn't grammar school.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> well all have our moments. It's a good thing this isn't grammar school.


Was that supposed to be "We'll"?


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> "Costed?" Really? "Costed" Really?


More like accosted.


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> More like accosted.


No, just corrected.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sorry sinc. I probably shouldn't type tonight, I'm down with the flu. Anyway, beyond grammar school...

Just watched the ndp leadership result, an interesting result for sure.


----------



## groovetube

well used graphic...


----------



## Macfury

If you've already won the argument, you may as well put the final nail in the coffin and point out the grammar as well.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

I have to admit, I haven't been reading much about Mulcair. Is he really the NDP's Tony Blair? I guess we'll find out.

We have a former Lib as leader of the NDP and a former NDP as leader of the Libs.

I wasn't terribly impressed with any of the field, there seemed to be nobody in the group who was up to Layton's level. Strangely enough the most charismatic leader in the House now is Bob Rae, followed by Elizabeth May. Charisma in politics isn't everything though.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Strangely enough the most charismatic leader in the House now is Bob Rae, followed by Elizabeth May. Charisma in politics isn't everything though.


Uh, seriously? Both of them have an air of goofiness that may make them more approachable, but that's nothing close to charisma.


----------



## groovetube

Strangely enough, I think Mulcair has the same job in front of him Harper had/has. Taking the party to appeal to a much larger base while holding the further left old guard. Broadbent didn't appear happy at all at the result.

It's a question of whether Mulcair has the same ability Harper has to do so.


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Strangely enough the most charismatic leader in the House now is Bob Rae, followed by Elizabeth May. Charisma in politics isn't everything though.


OMG! I nearly spewed my coffee through my nose when I read that!

Seriously?


----------



## groovetube

not sure that I'd agree with May as having real charisma. 

Rae, not so much charisma but real experience.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If you've already won the argument, you may as well put the final nail in the coffin and point out the grammar as well.


you really are, like the dude that keeps repeating the punch line over and over expecting more laughs.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> OMG! I nearly spewed my coffee through my nose when I read that!
> 
> Seriously?


Sure I'm serious. Don't get any coffee on your Mac, please.

We all know Harper has zero charisma, and I don't see that Mulcair has much. Whatever you think of Rae, he's a polished public speaker that projects well. I'm not talking politics here, just image. Of course one's perception of the speaker's politics may taint one's perception of their charisma.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> you really are, like the dude that keeps repeating the punch line over and over expecting more laughs.


Ah, got it. Just like you insist upon using poor grammar, incorrect punctuation and capitalization, right?


----------



## groovetube

as long as it irks, absolutely. 

Just watched an interview with Mulcair. I think things will get interesting from here. He wasn't my choice of leadership candidates, but Mulcair, speaks very well.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Ah, got it. Just like you insist upon using poor grammar, incorrect punctuation and capitalization, right?


"Round and round she goes," eh SINC?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Rae, not so much charisma but real experience.


Sure he has real experience, but you don't usually write "Economic wrecking ball" on your resumé.

Regarding Mulclair, anything Ed Brodbent doesn't like is a step in the right direction.


----------



## groovetube

well, a few attempts to bring this around to a canadian political event from today are unsuccessful, so I'll leave you pair here alone to play with yourselves to your hearts content.

Later.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> "Round and round she goes," eh SINC?


Not so much round, MF, more like 'oblonging' along, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Sure he has real experience, but you don't usually write "Economic wrecking ball" on your resumé.
> 
> Regarding Mulclair, anything Ed Brodbent doesn't like is a step in the right direction.


wonders never cease.

Well I don't think the recession and resulting job losses and deficits were all Bob Rae's fault anymore than I think 08s were all Stephen Harper's fault.

Pablum to anyone who wishes to swallow it.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Not so much round, MF, more like 'oblonging' along, wouldn't you agree?


Throw in a few random commas for the win!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Throw in a few random commas for the win!



well you just play grammar teacher, if that makes you feel better. But maybe go somewhere else with your childishness.

The rest of us can stay on topic thanks.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> No assumption here. I guess we'll see what form of proof was provided to convince RackNine CEO Meier that Poutine/Jones had authorization.
> 
> 
> Robocalls are cheap, which is why they are used so much. The machines can call 200,000 numbers per hour. The particular amount that EC uncovered got Poutine to 7,500 or so phones in Guelph, not insignificant.


Yes very much an assumption you said:



> This means that the infamous Pierre Poutine, couldn't have used RackNine services for his mischief, (which now includes a fake Liberal call spoofing the Lib candidate's office phone number)* without authorization from the Conservative Party of Canada.*


Which is not the case at all, all they had to was adequately pretend to be from a given campaign or actually from a *given* campaign. I guess you don't realize that individual campaign spendings are not vetted through the party but by a given EDA. There is not the level of top down control that it seems you and some others here seem to think there is when it comes to individual candidates/EDAs and how they conduct their campaigns.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> What a silly concept.
> 
> How could the Charter's provisions of freedom of speech and freedom of association be so circumvented as to deny any group the right to peacefully assemble and to run for the Parliament of the land to represent the views of a constituency.
> 
> Blinded by thoughts of being absolutely correct?


What a silly rebuttal as it would have nothing to do with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms but with the Elections Canada Act.

Blinded by thoughts of being absolutely correct?


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> A) The fees would be chicken feed for the Bloc or any other party that gets significant support to afford.
> 
> B) Against it because it would be ineffective for the stated purpose, but would affect the ability of smaller parties to run under a party banner. You'd need at least $70K or so to run as a party.
> 
> C) This idea is just a form of useless spackle to cover a huge hole that first past the post creates, where a regional party's small amount of support is distorted into a massive amount of seats.


A) The fees would not be chicken feed to a party like the Bloc when they no longer have the per vote subsidy... plus they would need to come up with candidates residing in the constituencies they run in... something that would not be such an easy task with such a provincial basis and separation as their goal.

B) Exactly what "smaller" parties are you referring to?

C) I disagree it would be useless, but I agree the FPTP system is flawed and needs to be amended or replaced.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Sure I'm serious. Don't get any coffee on your Mac, please.
> 
> We all know Harper has zero charisma, and I don't see that Mulcair has much. Whatever you think of Rae, he's a polished public speaker that projects well. I'm not talking politics here, just image. Of course one's perception of the speaker's politics may taint one's perception of their charisma.


The only reason you think Harper has no appeal is because you don't like the guy... there are plenty of others who in fact disagree with you.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The only reason you think Harper has no appeal is because you don't like the guy... there are plenty of others who in fact disagree with you.


I think he admitted to as much in the last line.

But I don't think many people will say Harper has a lot of charisma. Luckily for him it hasn't been a huge problem for him.


----------



## Macfury

Will be interesting to see how vicious Mulclair will be. Bob Rae will fold up like a flower if he sets his sites on taking the Liberals down another peg. Best bet for the NDP is to position itself as a centrist pro-business party, making what's left of the Liberals irrelevant before heading into the next federal election.


----------



## BigDL

I must say Our Glorious Leader has picked up Mad Skills since being elected. He is sooooo less wooden in his delivery, in fact he is as pliable as cardboard now.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think that is really the strategy for the NDP. Broadening it's appeal somewhat to capture more liberal votes, pushing the liberals to try and snag red tory votes off of Harper, that'll work.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I don't think that is really the strategy for the NDP. Broadening it's appeal somewhat to capture more liberal votes, pushing he liberals to try and snag red tory votes off of Harper, that'll work.



Moving votes from Conservative to NDP is a really tough game. But replacing the Liberals first might make that possible.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Moving votes from Conservative to NDP is a really tough game. But replacing the Liberals first might make that possible.


actually, you'll notice that I never suggested this.


----------



## Macfury

The sentence was very unclear, but I can see what you were trying to say now. I very much doubt a further weakened Liberal party would be in a position to "snatch" votes form the Conservatives. Certainly not under Bob Rae.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> *The sentence was very unclear*, but I can see what you were trying to say now. I very much doubt a further weakened Liberal party would be in a position to "snatch" votes form the Conservatives. Certainly not under Bob Rae.


here, let me help...




> I don't think that is really the strategy for the *NDP. Broadening it's appeal somewhat to capture more liberal votes*, pushing the liberals to try and snag red tory votes off of Harper, that'll work.


----------



## Macfury

Making it larger doesn't clarify it. As written, the sentence could mean that either:

a) the NDP "would be pushing the liberals" so that it (the NDP) could "try and snag red tory votes off Harper." _or_
b) the NDP would be "pushing the liberals" into an attempt to "try and snag red tory votes off Harper."

But why beat that dead horse? I finally got your meaning a few posts back.


----------



## groovetube

well since you're a comma nazi, I would think a comma after the word liberals would have changed it to mean what you think.

In any case, the liberals are not in a good place, with mulcair leading the ndp. And I suspect, Harper wouldn't be happy either.

Mulcaire vs Baird in parliament. That should be quite the ring side event.


----------



## BigDL

Piggies, gotta grunt. Gotta keep their threads orderly. SNNNNOOOORRRTTT.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Piggies, gotta grunt. Gotta keep their threads orderly. SNNNNOOOORRRTTT.


cat on a leash. they'll never change.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Piggies, gotta grunt*. Gotta keep their threads orderly. *SNNNNOOOORRRTTT.*


Nice post BigDL... highly articulate and well reasoned... keep up the good work.


----------



## bryanc

Actually, I rather suspect Harper is pleased with the outcome of the NDP leadership race. As long as the Liberals and NDP don't merge, the more effectively they split the non-conservative majority of the electorate the better. And if they do merge, there will inevitably be a contingent of Liberal support that won't support the merged party and will go to the Conservatives, as well as that contingent that abandons the newly merged Liberal Democrats and goes to the Greens or wherever. So it's all good for the Harper Machine.

However, I think a merged Liberal Democratic party would be the least good outcome for Harper in the long run, as it would directly target the Centre-Left that dominates Canadian politics (which is currently suffering a 3-way split between the Greens, NDP and Liberals in most of Canada, and is further subdivided by the addition of the Bloc in QC).

Almost as bad, from Harper's POV, would be formal coalition between the Liberals and the NDP; they could merge their nomination process at the riding level such that whichever party could feild a stronger competitor against the Conservatives in a given riding would do so, and the other party wouldn't run a candidate there. Such a move would almost certainly defeat the conservatives, but we don't have the tradition of coalition governments here in Canada (I don't really understand why not), so it may not be stable, and there's no reason the Conservatives couldn't participate in such a government. I think I'd actually like to see this tried; minority governments are often among the best we have in Canada, and flexible coalitions might make them more stable.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Actually, I rather suspect Harper is pleased with the outcome of the NDP leadership race. As long as the Liberals and NDP don't merge, the more effectively they split the non-conservative majority of the electorate the better. And if they do merge, there will inevitably be a contingent of Liberal support that won't support the merged party and will go to the Conservatives, as well as that contingent that abandons the newly merged Liberal Democrats and goes to the Greens or wherever. So it's all good for the Harper Machine.
> 
> However, I think a merged Liberal Democratic party would be the least good outcome for Harper in the long run, as it would directly target the Centre-Left that dominates Canadian politics (which is currently suffering a 3-way split between the Greens, NDP and Liberals in most of Canada, and is further subdivided by the addition of the Bloc in QC).
> 
> Almost as bad, from Harper's POV, would be formal coalition between the Liberals and the NDP; they could merge their nomination process at the riding level such that whichever party could feild a stronger competitor against the Conservatives in a given riding would do so, and the other party wouldn't run a candidate there. Such a move would almost certainly defeat the conservatives, but we don't have the tradition of coalition governments here in Canada (I don't really understand why not), so it may not be stable, and there's no reason the Conservatives couldn't participate in such a government. I think I'd actually like to see this tried; minority governments are often among the best we have in Canada, and flexible coalitions might make them more stable.


Muclair ruled out a merger. But, he didn't rule out a coalition. (afaik)

With the NDP nailing 100 seats last time, increasing their appeal and base will only send them towards minority territory, which could easily be supported by the liberals.

I don't know that Harper would be particularly pleased with Muclair as leader. JMHO


----------



## Macfury

I predict NDP support in Quebec will implode by next election, while Liberal fortunes will rise somewhat--although with Rae at the helm, that rise will be limited. Having the two parties merge would be like two people drowning and clinging to each other for support. They'll still drown, but at least they won't be alone.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I predict NDP support in Quebec will implode by next election, while Liberal fortunes will rise somewhat--although with Rae at the helm, that rise will be limited. Having the two parties merge would be like two people drowning and clinging to each other for support. They'll still drown, but at least they won't be alone.


At this point, I tend to agree with you on this, but I'm still waiting for the Liberal leadership race. Although I have a hunch that Rae will hang on.

Party merger is just a bad idea, though I wonder sometimes if the NDP and the Liberals will just switch places on the political spectrum.


----------



## groovetube

The quebec support may recede somewhat, but if Rae takes the liberal leadership, the liberals will tank in Ontario where they have the best support. What the ndp may lose in quebec, if they do, they'll more than gain in ontario, and in a few other places. Is Mulcair really disliked on Quebec? I didn't think so, and he's also seen as having disowned Charest which can't be too popular as we go in Quebec.

But this really depends on Mulcair living up to expectations. That's a big if.


----------



## Sonal

I'm also starting to wonder if Ontario is getting over its hatred of Bob Rae.... especially after Iggy. Maybe we're just getting resigned to him.

I mean, given the other options....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I'm also starting to wonder if Ontario is getting over its hatred of Bob Rae.... especially after Iggy. Maybe we're just getting resigned to him.
> 
> I mean, given the other options....


Unless you pay for your NOW Magazine subscription, most people would rather shoot themselves in the foot than support Bob Rae.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Unless you pay for your NOW Magazine subscription, most people would rather shoot themselves in the foot than support Bob Rae.


Yes, but look at the alternatives. I mean, I chose shooting myself in the foot instead of voting for Ignatief. Now I have just one foot left.

I was in high school when Bob Rae was Premier. There's a growing population who were working and voting adults back then.


----------



## groovetube

not sure on this one. I still think the hatred, whether deserved or not, is still there for Rae.

I d find it funny that Harper and crew decided to toss Job losses and record deficits at him though. But by now I guess they've learned people will swallow anything.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> not sure on this one. I still think the hatred, whether deserved or not, is still there for Rae.
> 
> I d find it funny that Harper and crew decided to toss Job losses and record deficits at him though. But by now I guess they've learned people will swallow anything.


I'm not completely sure either, and in the end, it's the polls that will tell us.

But I wonder. Evidently, so do a lot of people.
Bob Rae More Popular Than Stephen Harper In New Polling


----------



## groovetube

I remember that. But the liberals are whacked. Just as the progressive conservatives were whacked. It'll take a miracle to stem the bleeding on the liberal camp. It wouldn't surprise me to see them do even worse in the next election.


----------



## screature

3 years is a lifetime in politics... at this point anything can happen and so I would not make any bets one way or another at this point in time... it's just too early to tell.

But with Mulcair at the helm of the NDP it will definitely be interesting... now let's just see if the Libs hold on to Rae or decide on someone else as leader.. that is the next interesting thing to watch...

Today Rae seemed kind of desperate in the House at QP, whereas Mulcair seemed much more comfortable and relaxed, not surprising really due to the timing, but still, it may be a portent of things to come... time will tell.


----------



## groovetube

yes, 3 years is, a very long time. At least it'll get interesting. I hope anyway. Iggy was brutally boring.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Yes very much an assumption you said:
> 
> 
> 
> GratuitousApplesauce said:
> 
> 
> 
> This means that the infamous Pierre Poutine, couldn't have used RackNine services for his mischief, (which now includes a fake Liberal call spoofing the Lib candidate's office phone number) *without authorization from the Conservative Party of Canada.*
> 
> 
> 
> Which is not the case at all, all they had to was adequately pretend to be from a given campaign or actually from a *given* campaign. I guess you don't realize that individual campaign spendings are not vetted through the party but by a given EDA. There is not the level of top down control that it seems you and some others here seem to think there is when it comes to individual candidates/EDAs and how they conduct their campaigns.
Click to expand...

Although I think Matt Meier, the CEO of RackNine, is clearly NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer, I wouldn't make the assumption that you have done that he is a complete idiot. 

Under your scenario, Meier gets a call from some anonymous guy who he's never heard of before, and even though he is under an exclusive contract to only work for the Conservative Party of Canada during the election campaign, decides to take anonymous guy's sketchy info as gospel and risk violating his contract and millions in business, without checking with someone else at the party who could vouch for the mysterious Mr. Poutine/Jones.

It's been reported that Mr. Poutine/Jones called Meier on his private unlisted phone number. Who gave Poutine/Jones the number? Someone with better connections than low-level party plebes for sure. It will be interesting to see who this guy is once Elections Canada finally releases the info.



screature said:


> A) The fees would not be chicken feed to a party like the Bloc when they no longer have the per vote subsidy... plus they would need to come up with candidates residing in the constituencies they run in... something that would not be such an easy task with such a provincial basis and separation as their goal.
> 
> B) Exactly what "smaller" parties are you referring to?
> 
> C) I disagree it would be useless, but I agree the FPTP system is flawed and needs to be amended or replaced.


$70 or $100,000 is not big money in the context of election expenses for a major party. But it could be a death blow for a party that's just getting started, such as the Reform Party back in the late '80s. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure a candidate does not need to live in the riding they are running to represent.

I'm happy to hear that you agree FPTP is flawed.



screature said:


> The only reason you think Harper has no appeal is because you don't like the guy... there are plenty of others who in fact disagree with you.


No, that's not the reason. Nor did I say he had NO appeal, I said he had zero charisma. He obviously has appeal to some despite his lack of charisma. 

As I said in my post I don't think Mulcair-bear is blessed with buckets of charm either, although I find that what I know of his political leanings somewhat more appealing than Harper. I think most unbiased observers would admit that Harper is not particularly charismatic. 

(Unless of course, the sweater-vest-wearin', kitty-kat-pettin', Imagine-singin' PR gives ya goosebumps. )

It doesn't mean a pol can't be successful or effective despite not having that element, so it wasn't necessarily a criticism, simply an observation.


----------



## SINC

If the NDP truly wanted to move towards the centre with a new leader, they made a huge mistake by choosing a leader from Quebec. He will be seen by most outside of that province as a threat to the rest of Canada. It's my bet that will linger in the minds of all those who live west of that province.

On the other hand, Layton's so-called 'victory' or 'orange wave' as some proclaim, only came thanks to the voters of Quebec who abandoned the Bloc and many think, sought a more legitimate way to control the house than their failed plot with the Bloc.

Any way you cut it, a Quebecer as head of the NDP is a very bitter pill to swallow for those who founded and supported the NDP, largely based in the west.

I've been wrong before, but not likely this time on this development. There will be much infighting in the NDP before the smoke clears on this setback to any hope of forming a government in the future. It ain't gonna fly in western Canada.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> On the other hand, Layton's so-called 'victory' or 'orange wave' as some proclaim, only came thanks to the voters of Quebec who abandoned the Bloc and many think, sought a more legitimate way to control the house than their failed plot with the Bloc.


Layton made some intemperate promises to Quebec that formed the basis of the NDP's popularity there. The Orange Wave was festooned with fleurs-de-lis.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> If the NDP truly wanted to move towards the centre with a new leader, they made a huge mistake by choosing a leader from Quebec. He will be seen by most outside of that province as a threat to the rest of Canada. It's my bet that will linger in the minds of all those who live west of that province.
> 
> On the other hand, Layton's so-called 'victory' or 'orange wave' as some proclaim, only came thanks to the voters of Quebec who abandoned the Bloc and many think, sought a more legitimate way to control the house than their failed plot with the Bloc.
> 
> Any way you cut it, a Quebecer as head of the NDP is a very bitter pill to swallow for those who founded and supported the NDP, largely based in the west.
> 
> I've been wrong before, but not likely this time on this development. There will be much infighting in the NDP before the smoke clears on this setback to any hope of forming a government in the future. It ain't gonna fly in western Canada.


correction. He'll be seen as a threat by most albertans perhaps, and some western provinces to a degree. But not at ALL in Ontario, nor many other provinces.


However, as Harper continues to make Alberta and it's oil his clear priority, as I hear many begiining to grumble this side of the country, he will be seen equally if not more as a threat by ontario, quebec, and many other provinces as well.

We need a truly national leader. I dont know if mulcair is that. We'll see.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> If the NDP truly wanted to move towards the centre with a new leader, they made a huge mistake by choosing a leader from Quebec. He will be seen by most outside of that province as a threat to the rest of Canada. It's my bet that will linger in the minds of all those who live west of that province.
> 
> On the other hand, Layton's so-called 'victory' or 'orange wave' as some proclaim, only came thanks to the voters of Quebec who abandoned the Bloc and many think, sought a more legitimate way to control the house than their failed plot with the Bloc.
> 
> Any way you cut it, a Quebecer as head of the NDP is a very bitter pill to swallow for those who founded and supported the NDP, largely based in the west.
> 
> I've been wrong before, but not likely this time on this development. There will be much infighting in the NDP before the smoke clears on this setback to any hope of forming a government in the future. It ain't gonna fly in western Canada.


Wasn't Mulroney a leader from Quebec? And the man who brought the Bloc itself into Parliament? Lucien Bouchard was Brian's guy, wasn't he? I think under his Quebec wave he won a few seats west of Ontario, if memory serves. With one or two fluers de lis promises to boot.

Naturally Mulcair wouldn't appeal to as many in the west as Mulroney did, Alberta in particular, before his government disgraced itself, because he's not a conservative, but I'm not sure how this translates into certain electoral disaster. I suspect that the NDP will improve its standing in BC, will probably not move a lot in AB, SK and MN, may improve some in the Atlantic provinces, will hold onto much of their PQ gains and ON will be the test of how well they do. But the next election is a loooong way away, so I wouldn't make any firm predictions myself.

Your point about the "bitter pill to swallow for those who founded and supported the NDP" in the west, isn't based on any reaction I'm seeing out here. Whatever kind of leader Mulcair turns out to be, I think the dominant thinking amongst NDPers across the country is that this was the only guy other than Layton himself, with the best chance to beat the Cons. I think that's why he won.

By the way, I don't think that most in the current NDP want to move to the centre. But itt's something that has been happening under Layton as the party got larger and won more seats and it will continue to happen if they continue to grow. That's just the way these things inevitably go. If Harper tried to run on his NCC-era extremist political platform before he took over the Alliance, he would not be PM today. 

As they say, politics is the art of the possible.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> If the NDP truly wanted to move towards the centre with a new leader, they made a huge mistake by choosing a leader from Quebec. He will be seen by most outside of that province as a threat to the rest of Canada. It's my bet that will linger in the minds of all those who live west of that province.
> 
> On the other hand, Layton's so-called 'victory' or 'orange wave' as some proclaim, only came thanks to the voters of Quebec who abandoned the Bloc and many think, sought a more legitimate way to control the house than their failed plot with the Bloc.
> 
> Any way you cut it, a Quebecer as head of the NDP is a very bitter pill to swallow for those who founded and supported the NDP, largely based in the west.
> 
> I've been wrong before, but not likely this time on this development. There will be much infighting in the NDP before the smoke clears on this setback to any hope of forming a government in the future. It ain't gonna fly in western Canada.


Jack Layton was born and raised in Hudson, Quebec, and was actually the son of a Progressive Conservative cabinet minister. 

Both NL NDP MPs supported him, which many thought was strange, given Quebec-NL relationships. Still, I say that the country should give him a chance, just like it did to Jack Layton, and see what he can proprose as leader of the NDP. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> correction. He'll be seen as a threat by most albertans perhaps, and some western provinces to a degree. But not at ALL in Ontario, nor many other provinces.


Correction? :lmao:

Best you look up the difference between a correction and a dissenting opinion.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Correction? :lmao:
> 
> Best you look up the difference between a correction and a dissenting opinion.


Well Sinc, you're from alberta. The seething distrust of a quebecor is hardly surprising.

Personally, I could care less, where a PM is from. If he lead nationally, and without the sort of school yard BS tactics like the Harper crew has, great.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> However, as Harper continues to make Alberta and it's oil his clear priority, as I hear many begiining to grumble this side of the country, he will be seen equally if not more as a threat by ontario, quebec, and many other provinces as well.


Oil is keeping Canada's economy alive, both in the Maritimes and the West--it would be just like Ontario to get its panties in a knot over oil, when it's receiving "oil welfare" from those provinces that are eclipsing it economically.


----------



## Sonal

Was support (i.e., votes and ridings) for the NDP likely to grow even with a leader from out west? Doesn't seem likely to me. Popular support for the NDP has been dismal in Alberta for the last several elections. (Though the last one was a high of 17%.)

Might it have shrunk under a leader who didn't 'get' Quebec? Quite probably. Quebec has only very recently gone orange and they need to make sure it stays that way. And there's a lot more seats there. They only need to find another 50 seats or so to win, and they are better off a) making sure they hang on to the ones they have and b) focusing on provinces/ridings where their popular support is high and try to tip those over the edge. They won't find much of that in Alberta.

So it makes a lot more sense for the NDP to elect a leader from Quebec. It may be a bitter pill for those out west, but it's poor strategy for them to worry about that at this stage.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Oil is keeping Canada's economy alive, both in the Maritimes and the West--it would be just like Ontario to get its panties in a knot over oil, when it's receiving "oil welfare" from those provinces that are eclipsing it economically.


Ontario is NOT getting it's panties in knot over oil, only the delusional would suggest such a thing.

The high dollar is a clear problem for manufacturing. That's what Ontario (and others likely) are having a problem with.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Ontario is NOT getting it's panties in knot over oil, only the delusional would suggest such a thing.
> 
> The high dollar is a clear problem for manufacturing. That's what Ontario (and others likely) are having a problem with.


The high dollar would also be a problem for Alberta if people were buying manufactured goods from Ontario's shriveling manufacturing sector in sufficient quantities. Problem is, not enough customers were buying Ontario's manufactured goods, even when our dollar was depressed.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> They won't find much of that in Alberta.


Exactly. Alberta is like another country. Having lived and worked in several provinces (including Alberta), and the US over the years, I'm comfortable saying that, with the exception of the Universities and their immediate surroundings, Alberta is far more like the US than it is like the rest of Canada. Ever since the NEP, Albertans have been lukewarm on the "the rest of Canada" (as a population; I know many very patriotic Canadians that live in Alberta), and as a province I think they identify more with Montana than either Saskatchewan or BC. Both SK and BC have elected NDP governments... can you imagine how the NDP would do in Montana?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The high dollar would also be a problem for Alberta if people were buying manufactured goods from Ontario's shriveling manufacturing sector in sufficient quantities. Problem is, not enough customers were buying Ontario's manufactured goods, even when our dollar was depressed.


Unfortunately this bit of flailing makes no sense. You'll have to go in far greater detail to explain this nonsense. Sorry.


----------



## mrjimmy

bryanc said:


> can you imagine how the NDP would do in Montana?


This is conjuring up that classic image of the townsfolk at night, carrying torches and ascending the hill...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Unfortunately this bit of flailing makes no sense. You'll have to go in far greater detail to explain this nonsense. Sorry.


This is self-explanatory. Why do you think Alberta's oil sales are blamed for the value of the Canadian dollar?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This is self-explanatory. Why do you think Alberta's oil sales are blamed for the value of the Canadian dollar?


nice deflection. But I was the one asking the questions.

(It's ok if you can't answer... )


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> nice deflection. But I was the one asking the questions.
> 
> (It's ok if you can't answer... )


If you understood why Alberta's oil is blamed for the high value of the Canadian dollar, then you would be able to understand my comment about Ontario's manufacturing sector. It's simple supply and demand and I refuse to believe that you don't already understand it.


----------



## MLeh

groovetube said:


> Unfortunately this bit of flailing makes no sense. You'll have to go in far greater detail to explain this nonsense. Sorry.


In the middle of the last century (1950's) steel came from Pittsburgh and Sudbury, manufactured and consumer goods came from Ontario or the USA, cars came from Detroit and Windsor. Alberta produced oil, BC produced wood.

Today steel comes from China, most manufactured good consumer goods come from China, cars come from Japan or Korea or Mexico, clothing comes from Malaysia or Pakistan or India. Alberta produces oil, BC produces socialists.

North Americans, for the most part, with few exceptions (Alberta) are now 'consumers', not 'producers'. The only reason the USA isn't insolvent is because it's not in everyone else's best interest: the USA is an excellent market, and you don't kill the golden goose. 

If you want to make comparisons of how Alberta is more like Montana, then you also need to acknowledge that Central Canada has more in common with the Eastern USA via the Auto Pact and Niagara Falls.

In any case, the Canadian dollar isn't 'high', the USA dollar is 'low'.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If you understood why Alberta's oil is blamed for the high value of the Canadian dollar, then you would be able to understand my comment about Ontario's manufacturing sector. It's simple supply and demand and I refuse to believe that you don't already understand it.


so far, you've said a whole lotta nuthin'.

I took issue with the statement that Ontario was getting it's "panties in a knot" simply over oil.

I didn't say I understood all this, so you're going to have to explain it to support that it's just the oil we're apparently twisted about.


----------



## groovetube

MLeh said:


> In the middle of the last century (1950's) steel came from Pittsburgh and Sudbury, manufactured and consumer goods came from Ontario or the USA, cars came from Detroit and Windsor. Alberta produced oil, BC produced wood.
> 
> Today steel comes from China, most manufactured good consumer goods come from China, cars come from Japan or Korea or Mexico, clothing comes from Malaysia or Pakistan or India. Alberta produces oil, BC produces socialists.
> 
> North Americans, for the most part, with few exceptions (Alberta) are now 'consumers', not 'producers'. The only reason the USA isn't insolvent is because it's not in everyone else's best interest: the USA is an excellent market, and you don't kill the golden goose.
> 
> If you want to make comparisons of how Alberta is more like Montana, then you also need to acknowledge that Central Canada has more in common with the Eastern USA via the Auto Pact and Niagara Falls.
> 
> In any case, the Canadian dollar isn't 'high', the USA dollar is 'low'.


You quoted the wrong person I didn't make the Montana comparison.


----------



## Macfury

MLeh said:


> Today steel comes from China, most manufactured good consumer goods come from China, cars come from Japan or Korea or Mexico, clothing comes from Malaysia or Pakistan or India. Alberta produces oil, BC produces socialists.


Ontario produces grand schemes and programs of vision--but it has no money to pay for them.


----------



## Macfury

MLeh: Don't go too far down the road of lecturing on Economics 101. Few rewards await you for your efforts.


----------



## groovetube

The truth is, you made some sweeping pronouncements, but haven't so far shown the goods to support it.

Bottom line. You clearly cannot support your statement. At all.


----------



## Macfury

Sure, groove. I may continue the discussion with MLeh later.


----------



## mrjimmy

Ontario has discovered that it is difficult to compete with slave labour.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Ontario has discovered that it is difficult to compete with slave labour.


exactly. And of course the solution to this is to make a lot more free trade deals.


----------



## bryanc

MLeh said:


> If you want to make comparisons of how Alberta is more like Montana, then you also need to acknowledge that Central Canada has more in common with the Eastern USA via the Auto Pact and Niagara Falls.


I would certainly agree that Central Canada has more in common _economically_ with the Eastern US than Western or Atlantic Canada (let alone Quebec), but culturally that's not as clear (although I'll grant that Torontonians are more like the denizens of any of the large cities in the Eastern US than most of the rest of Canadians). It certainly seems to me that someone from Ottawa or Montreal is more likely to get along with someone from Vancouver, Winnipeg or Halifax than someone from Calgary.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Sure, groove. I may continue the discussion with MLeh later.


well then I'll take this as an admission of "I have nothing".

thanks.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> well then I'll take this as an admission of "I have nothing".
> 
> thanks.


Sure. Any time.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Ontario has discovered that it is difficult to compete with slave labour.


The heyday of North American manufacturing occurred during a period where other countries didn't have the energy or transportation infrastructure to support manufacturing on a broad scale. That advantage supported high manufacturing wages here for a century. Guess what--the other countries have what we have and people whose lives are improving by taking these jobs, even at lower wages. 

We can still succeed at specialty manufacturing, but much of the mass production manufacturing will never return.


----------



## bryanc

This is at least partially due to tax breaks that allow multinational corporations to deduct shipping costs from their income tax.

If shipping costs were included in the price of products, it would not make sense to ship raw materials halfway around the world, manufacture it into cheap consumer goods, and then ship it all the way back to be sold at Wall-Mart for $1.15.

This would make even less economic sense if the *real* costs of environmental degradation and the social consequences of the labour abuses going on in these "developing countries" where the manufacturing is being done were integrated into the cost of the product... suddenly the locally made sheep's wool sweater isn't so much more expensive than the synthetic one made by child slave labour in Malaysia.


----------



## MLeh

bryanc said:


> I would certainly agree that Central Canada has more in common _economically_ with the Eastern US than Western or Atlantic Canada (let alone Quebec), but culturally that's not as clear (although I'll grant that Torontonians are more like the denizens of any of the large cities in the Eastern US than most of the rest of Canadians). It certainly seems to me that someone from Ottawa or Montreal is more likely to get along with someone from Vancouver, Winnipeg or Halifax than someone from Calgary.


I'm from Calgary (bred and born). I get along with everyone. (Well, except Dr. G, who apparently gets along with everyone but me, but that's another topic.)

However many people who live in Alberta now aren't actually Albertans. They have come from 'away' for the economic opportunities available in that province. And certainly people who move for economic opportunity may have a different approach to life than people who have never taken that risk. 

So I wouldn't disagree that Albertans have a slightly different mindset but is it a result of some definition of 'culture' or just a result of the type of people who are risk takers who have moved there and have a 'just get 'er done' attitude? 

I certainly don't think a different attitude means that we'll get along any better or worse with other Canadians, be they from Vancouver or Ottawa or Winnipeg or Toronto, unless it's a prejudice on the other person's part.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The heyday of North American manufacturing occurred during a period where other countries didn't have the energy or transportation infrastructure to support manufacturing on a broad scale. That advantage supported high manufacturing wages here for a century. Guess what--the other countries have what we have and people whose lives are improving by taking these jobs, even at lower wages.
> 
> We can still succeed at specialty manufacturing, but much of the mass production manufacturing will never return.


Yes I realize that. 

Their lives have _improved_ going from having essentially nothing to just enough to feed their family, if in fact that's even the case.

I say abandon the manufacturing model and retrain. We can't compete with slave wages and why would we want to? Decreased tax base, workers who can't afford the products they produce, a steeper division between the haves and have nots. 

Western Governments should just suck it up and admit they are beholden to these emerging economies rather than trying to deconstruct their own.


----------



## groovetube

After having driven from sea, to shining sea in the country far more times than I can count, and having made many many friends in all of the cities I have played, hung around in, walked around in and explored on days off, I can say that the only place in Canada I have gotten them most negative reaction from saying I'm from Ontario is Alberta. This is petty well known amongst most of us travelling performers, not just in Ontario, but often if you're anywhere east of thunder bay. It's actually something we laugh about, all the time actually.

But having said that, it's unfair to paint everyone from Alberta with that brush. I've met some of the nicest people in Alberta (even Edmonton!  ... holy crap that's a joke...) and truthfully, my favourite city to play in the west, hands down, is Calgary.

I've always recommended to anyone that if they really want to see Canada, drive across it and spend time in every city, and meet lots of people. I've been pretty lucky to have been able to do that, many, many, many times.


----------



## MLeh

groovetube said:


> I've always recommended to anyone that if they really want to see Canada, drive across it and spend time in every city, and meet lots of people. I've been pretty lucky to have been able to do that, many, many, many times.


They're pretty nice in the small towns and out in the country, too.


----------



## groovetube

absolutely. I've been in more small towns than cities. Love it. I spent years going through rural quebec and northern ontario as well earlier in my travelling. Rural quebec is amazing. Best breakfast in canada.


----------



## eMacMan

MLeh said:


> They're pretty nice in the small towns and out in the country, too.


Yep in small towns you can pass a pretty young thing, smile and say "Hi". Around here she'll probably smile back. Try that in Calgary or TO and she's speed dialing 911.


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> it's unfair to paint everyone from Alberta with that brush.


I certainly hope no one thought I was trying to. I was talking about population/culture level differences/similarities, not individuals.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Yep in small towns you can pass a pretty young thing, smile and say "Hi". Around here she'll probably smile back. Try that in Calgary or TO and she's speed dialing 911.


probably because there's way more creeps walking around here. I don't blame them.


----------



## Sonal

eMacMan said:


> Yep in small towns you can pass a pretty young thing, smile and say "Hi". Around here she'll probably smile back. Try that in Calgary or TO and she's speed dialing 911.


You have to get the non-verbal okay first here. 

Otherwise, it's just startling and weird. Kind of a, hey, why aren't you busy minding your business like everyone else?


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> You have to get the non-verbal okay first here.
> 
> Otherwise, it's just startling and weird. Kind of a, hey, why aren't you busy minding your business like everyone else?


I am thankful every day I live in a neighborhood that people still say hello to "strangers" every day regardless of sex, age, race or anything else... One of the reasons I will never live in a big city. Cripes, it doesn't even have to be all that big for eyes to be straight ahead passing people like you have blinders on for it to be the case.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I am thankful every day I live in a neighborhood that people still say hello to "strangers" every day regardless of sex, age, race or anything else... One of the reasons I will never live in a big city. Cripes, it doesn't even have to be all that big for eyes to be straight ahead passing people like you have blinders on for it to be the case.


People say hello to strangers every day here too. 

But you also have to respect that there are times when people who live here want to walk around eyes straight ahead blinders on.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> People say hello to strangers every day here too.
> 
> But you also have to respect that there are times when people who live here want to walk around eyes straight ahead blinders on.


very true. Big city problems are real, and people are often extra careful. But they can also be the friendliest people around as well. 

Big cities aren't for everyone.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Sadly, his rant was all too true. I am not sure as to the amount of money that the Harper Government of Canada has in their war chest, but I agree with Rick Mercer's rationale for why they are starting now.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> You have to get the non-verbal okay first here.
> 
> Otherwise, it's just startling and weird. Kind of a, hey, why aren't you busy minding your business like everyone else?


When we had a new neighbor move in from TO last week, I went over to say "hello" and "welcome to the neighborhood". The person just stared at me, so I said "Have a good day" and went back into my house. The next day I just said "hi" but this person came over to me and apologized for being so rude. He said that he wondered who I was, but when he saw me go back into my home he realized I actually did live on the cul de sac. He admitted that he thought it was rather strange to have someone just come up to you and say hello and start a conversation. He told me that he was born and raised in TO. I told him to get used to the friendliness of people here in St.John's.


----------



## BigDL

I used to be amazed how people in Downtown Toronto would attempt to avoid any eye contact and at the very same time keep a watchful eye on this person, acknowledging the very existence of him/her.

It seems there was something untoward about an individual in full daylight at high noon nodding and wishing good day to any individual walking down the sidewalk.

This was not my experience in Montreal day or evening. A nod and a good day was accepted gracefully by the population of the downtown area.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I certainly hope no one thought I was trying to. I was talking about population/culture level differences/similarities, not individuals.


no I didn't think you did personally. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't doing it before anyone took offence.


----------



## Dr.G.

The governor general will start paying income taxes :clap::clap::clap: .................. but the salary will be increased to cover the difference. tptptptpXX)


----------



## BigDL

Could be the highlight of the pointless jester...gestures.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Could be the highlight of the pointless jester...gestures.


No, the fact that MPs and Senators need to pay more into their pension and collect it for life at a later date is the main "gesture" of this budget.


----------



## MacDoc

I actually think it's a decent budget tho only sort of undoes some of the expanding government abuse Harper has over seen - loading the Senate with his hacks and a huge cabinet.
Will even take tokenism.

Taking some pages from Aus on dumping the penny and moving to the plastic money will provide some savings.

Too bad he doesn't take a bigger bite of Australian ideas and bring in mandatory proportional voting, dump/combine some rural ridings that are shrinking and dump the whole current senate in favour of a smaller regionally split elected senate.

Then maybe we would have cost effective representative gov.

Of course Harper would be out of a job.......


----------



## Vandave

What, no complaining about Green House Gases MacDoc? I bet the Liberals could get some traction if they dragged Dion out from whatever hole he is hiding in.

Amazing what 5 years can do.


----------



## chimo

Dr.G. said:


> No, the fact that MPs and Senators need to pay more into their pension and collect it for life at a later date is the main "gesture" of this budget.


From page 225 of the Budget. 

"Adjustments to the pension plan of Parliamentarians will take effect in the next Parliament."

Convenient.


----------



## Dr.G.

chimo said:


> From page 225 of the Budget.
> 
> "Adjustments to the pension plan of Parliamentarians will take effect in the next Parliament."
> 
> Convenient.


Very. It is only fair, since the MPs ran with the understanding that if elected, and then reelected, they would be given a gold-plated pension at age 55. They might not have ran for Parliament had they known that they would have to wait until 60 to retire and someday pay half of their pension contribution, rather than just 1 / 23. Seems only fair to me ..................   :greedy: XX)


----------



## MacDoc

Y'know VD - you're just as puerile as ever.....I don't expect anything from Harper except denial and avoidance and the same from his lap puppies.

Here = we'll catch you up on reality.



> *2001-2010 warmest decade on record: WMO*
> March 23, 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Lavers salvages the laundry from his flooded backyard after heavy rains caused flash flooding across Sydney on March 8. The UN weather agency noted that during the decade, "numerous weather and climate extremes affected almost every part of the globe with flooding, droughts, cyclones, heat waves and cold waves."
> Climate change has accelerated in the past decade, the UN weather agency said Friday, releasing data showing that 2001 to 2010 was the warmest decade on record.
> 
> The 10-year period was also marked by extreme levels of rain or snowfall, leading to significant flooding on all continents, while droughts affected parts of East Africa and North America.
> 
> *"The decade 2001-2010 was the warmest since records began in 1850, with global land and sea surface temperatures estimated at 0.46 degrees Celsius above the long term average of 14.0 degrees Celsius (57.2 degrees Fahrenheit)," said the World Meteorological Organisation.
> 
> Nine of the 10 years also counted among the 10 warmest on record, it added, noting that "climate change accelerated" during the first decade of the 21st century.
> The trend continued in 2011, which was the warmest year on record despite La Nina -- a weather pattern which has a cooling effect.*
> 
> The average temperature in 2011 was 0.40 degrees Celsius above the long term average, said the WMO.
> "This 2011 annual assessment confirms the findings of the previous WMO annual statements that climate change is happening now and is not some distant future threat," said WMO Secretary-General Michel Jarraud.
> 
> *"The world is warming because of human activities and this is resulting in far-reaching and potentially irreversible impacts on our Earth, atmosphere and oceans,*" he added.
> The UN weather agency noted that during the decade, "numerous weather and climate extremes affected almost every part of the globe with flooding, droughts, cyclones, heat waves and cold waves."
> 
> Historical floods hit Eastern Europe in 2001 and 2005, Africa in 2008, Asia and Australia in 2010.Global precipitation -- including rain or snow -- reached the second highest average since 1901. The highest average was recorded for the decade 1951-1960.
> Meanwhile for the North Atlantic basin, the 10 years marked the highest level of tropical cyclone activity, including Hurricane Katrina which struck the United States in 2005 and Cyclone Nargis which hit Myanmar in 2008.


2001-2010 warmest decade on record: WMO



> TUESDAY, MARCH 27, 2012
> *Climate change is about to reach tipping point*
> 
> Our planet is very close to reaching a tipping point where climate change and global warming will become irreversible. Many scientists believe that this decade may be our last chance to do something effective against climate change.
> 
> The tipping point represents a global temperature increase of two degrees Celsius. This increase in global temperature will among other things lead to melting of polar ice sheets and massive loss of rainforests.
> 
> What world quickly needs is new international climate deal but this doesn't look to be happening any time soon because there are still major differences between developed and developing world in proposed cuts.
> 
> The continuing melting of the ice worries scientists, especially if it spreads to Siberian permafrost, which stores frozen carbon in the soil away from the atmosphere. Scientists estimate that Siberian holds 1,600 billion tonnes of carbon there - about twice the amount in the atmosphere today.
> 
> Rainforests are becoming drier and oceans are becoming increasingly acidic, all because of the increased climate change impact. Extreme weather events such as hurricanes are becoming more frequent and there is also a danger of new diseases.
> 
> The only solution to climate change issue is to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions and this can only be done by shutting down fossil fuels fired power plants and switching to clean, renewable energy sources.


Climate change is about to reach tipping point | Climate Change Articles

which you and Harper et al choose to ignore at all our peril......but do go on being puerile - it's expected after all from lap puppies. 

You have anything cogent to contribute or just trolling.??


----------



## Macfury

<MacDoc--just because Vandave asked about the mention of "global warming" in the budget, doesn't require all of these random stats to be posted here.


----------



## groovetube

no he didn't. He pulled a macfury.


----------



## BigDL

Can we get back on track here? 

This is the Canadian political thread, lets not pollute it with talks of pollution please. 

Seems to me we, the citizens of Ehmacland, may have a separate and dedicated thread for those very discussions.


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting budget and lots of commentary in the Lamestream.

Most obvious question of course is not being asked. Is there any money to build and staff all those new dungeons that King Harpo wants, or is the entire expense being dumped on the Provincial Governments?


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Interesting budget and lots of commentary in the Lamestream.
> 
> Most obvious question of course is not being asked. Is there any money to build and staff all those new dungeons that King Harpo wants, or is the entire expense being dumped on the Provincial Governments?


We were promised some money to upgrade Her Majesty's Pen here in St.John's just prior to the election, when there was a chance of the Conservatives picking up a seat or two in the St.John's area. When both seats went to the NDP, this promise was suddenly withdrawn. So, with more people being arrested under the new guidelines, it will have to be a provincial expense, at least here in NL. Not sure what the situation is in other provinces.


----------



## CubaMark

_*Here's what one group of Canadians thinks the budget should have been:*_

Alternative Federal Budget 2012 | Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives


----------



## keebler27

The budget can be analyzed to the nth degree as I'm sure it will be, but to me, I think it's fairly simple.

We're spending too much. Debt is high. We need to make cuts.

No budget would ever satisfy everyone unfortunately.

But the bottom line is we need to make changes.

Look at the fine shape the US of A is in. At least our govt is doing something about it.

For the record, I'm 40 so I think the old age moving to 67 isn't the greatest.

The mathematics for pensions and unions simply don't add up in the long run. I have to be honest - I'm even surprised I'm still eligible for a pension and in fact, I think sometime in the future, it's going to be abolished as there won't be enough younger people working to put money back in and more retired folks drawing it.

We think we all have to 'suck it up buttercup' and go with the flow. Our government, like it or not, is ensuring we don't end up like Greece or the US (the latter heading in that direction).


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> _*Here's what one group of Canadians thinks the budget should have been:*_
> 
> Alternative Federal Budget 2012 | Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives


Ouch--the Athens version of the budget! Next?


----------



## groovetube

keebler27 said:


> The budget can be analyzed to the nth degree as I'm sure it will be, but to me, I think it's fairly simple.
> 
> We're spending too much. Debt is high. We need to make cuts.
> 
> No budget would ever satisfy everyone unfortunately.
> 
> But the bottom line is we need to make changes.
> 
> Look at the fine shape the US of A is in. At least our govt is doing something about it.
> 
> For the record, I'm 40 so I think the old age moving to 67 isn't the greatest.
> 
> The mathematics for pensions and unions simply don't add up in the long run. I have to be honest - I'm even surprised I'm still eligible for a pension and in fact, I think sometime in the future, it's going to be abolished as there won't be enough younger people working to put money back in and more retired folks drawing it.
> 
> We think we all have to 'suck it up buttercup' and go with the flow. Our government, like it or not, is ensuring we don't end up like Greece or the US (the latter heading in that direction).


Perhaps, if we didn't squander huge tax cuts to the rich under the stupendously brainless guise of "job creation", or say a crime agenda that does nothing but suck billions out of -our- tax dollars, just for starters, perhaps we could, actually reasonably fund needed programs such as OAS.

But somehow any disagreement on how and where cuts are, and who gets the big tax breaks, tends to always result in an accusation of "tax and spend" stupidity. 

And the beat goes on.


----------



## Dr.G.

The price of gas just hit $1.43 a liter here in St.John's , but we have been told not to complain ............... since it compares well with other liquids.

A tall coffee at Starbucks, it's about $3. But that's nearly $8 per liter.

Fancy Italian olive oil? That can set you back over $40 per liter.

Top of the line nail polish? Over $400 per liter. 

The fanciest perfumes will set you back $1,600 per liter.

Printer ink is a whopping $1,750 per liter.


----------



## SINC

Although I am certain there is no collusion, every gas station in the city is currently competitively priced at 1.129.


----------



## javaqueen

and we are sitting at 1.333 a litre


----------



## BigDL

Prices in Moncton range between $1.342 to $1.372 which is the maximum regulated price per litre.


----------



## MLeh

keebler27 said:


> The budget can be analyzed to the nth degree as I'm sure it will be, but to me, I think it's fairly simple.
> 
> We're spending too much. Debt is high. We need to make cuts.
> 
> No budget would ever satisfy everyone unfortunately.
> 
> But the bottom line is we need to make changes.
> 
> Look at the fine shape the US of A is in. At least our govt is doing something about it.
> 
> For the record, I'm 40 so I think the old age moving to 67 isn't the greatest.
> 
> The mathematics for pensions and unions simply don't add up in the long run. I have to be honest - I'm even surprised I'm still eligible for a pension and in fact, I think sometime in the future, it's going to be abolished as there won't be enough younger people working to put money back in and more retired folks drawing it.
> 
> We think we all have to 'suck it up buttercup' and go with the flow. Our government, like it or not, is ensuring we don't end up like Greece or the US (the latter heading in that direction).


The change of the OAS age limit is the wrong way to go about saving money, in my opinion. Personally I think OAS is supposed to be so people don't live in poverty when they're old. My grandmother used to call it her 'widows pension' as she never worked outside the house, so never had earned income. But I don't think someone earning over $60,000.00 a year in 'retirement income' needs OAS on top of that. So, a better solution would be to lower the level at which the government starts to deduct (clawback) OAS from payments to retirees. Those that truly need it should get it, but if you've worked all your life and have retirement income and CPP, OAS is just a 'social safety net'.

OAS is not CPP, which everyone pays into as they work and which is (hopefully) invested properly. I'm told it is actuarially sound. OAS is simply welfare for the old, paid out of general tax revenues. There is a lot of 'entitlement' happening with people and their OAS. And a lot of people who don't know the difference between OAS and CPP.

However I'm not really counting on _anything_ from the government. My accountant tells me I should plan to have 'lower income' during my retirement years (ie stop putting money in RRSPs) so that I can qualify for OAS. That's not the way I work, though. But if it all goes in the dumper, I like to think that the people of Canada (through our elected Government) will take care of those who truly need it, and not just pander to the 'grey block' of voters (aka the boomers).


----------



## mrjimmy

MLeh said:


> The change of the OAS age limit is the wrong way to go about saving money, in my opinion. Personally I think OAS is supposed to be so people don't live in poverty when they're old. My grandmother used to call it her 'widows pension' as she never worked outside the house, so never had earned income. But I don't think someone earning over $60,000.00 a year in 'retirement income' needs OAS on top of that. So, a better solution would be to lower the level at which the government starts to deduct (clawback) OAS from payments to retirees. Those that truly need it should get it, but if you've worked all your life and have retirement income and CPP, OAS is just a 'social safety net'.
> 
> OAS is not CPP, which everyone pays into as they work and which is (hopefully) invested properly. I'm told it is actuarially sound. OAS is simply welfare for the old, paid out of general tax revenues. There is a lot of 'entitlement' happening with people and their OAS. And a lot of people who don't know the difference between OAS and CPP.
> 
> However I'm not really counting on _anything_ from the government. My accountant tells me I should plan to have 'lower income' during my retirement years (ie stop putting money in RRSPs) so that I can qualify for OAS. That's not the way I work, though. But if it all goes in the dumper, I like to think that the people of Canada (through our elected Government) will take care of those who truly need it, and not just pander to the 'grey block' of voters (aka the boomers).


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> I couldn't agree more.


agreed as well.


----------



## Macfury

I recall my mother-in-law qualifying for OAS and having it clawed back at a very low rate of extra income. It isn't handed out to the wealthy.


----------



## MLeh

Don't confuse the OAS with the GIS (Guaranteed Income Supplement) . They don't claw back the OAS until you're earning over $66,000.00 a year. The GIS is clawed back fairly aggressively at a much lower rate.


----------



## Ottawaman

So Harper's slashing the food inspectors again and letting the food industry police itself, this will no doubt turn out well. A $56.1-million cut from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is a bad idea.

Edit
I couldn't remember how many died form the listeriosis outbreak so I looked it up.
It killed 23 Canadians.


----------



## Sonal

MLeh said:


> Don't confuse the OAS with the GIS (Guaranteed Income Supplement) . They don't claw back the OAS until you're earning over $66,000.00 a year. The GIS is clawed back fairly aggressively at a much lower rate.


Closer to $70,000 now.


----------



## Ottawaman

> According to the latest OAS Actuarial Report, OAS/GIS expenditures will rise from 2.43% of GDP today, to a peak of 3.16% in 2030, immediately after the full impact of the raised eligibility age kicks in in 2029.
> 
> OAS/GIS expenditures will already have hit 2.91% of GDP in 2023 when the phased in increase begins.
> 
> Put another way, the increased eligibility age will not impact most baby boomers. The impact will be on later age cohorts.
> 
> I fail entirely to see how the goal of inter-generational fairness is served by undermining retirement income security for those aged under 54 today.
> 
> Indeed, in the name of fairness, people of my generation should be arguing that those who follow us get OAS at the same age as us.
> 
> Re increasing life expectancy, the fact that longevity at age 65 varies significantly by social class is ignored. The reality is that low income seniors, those most impacted by the change, have not shared the average increase in life expectancy which is highlighted in the Budget.


The Progressive Economics Forum » OAS, the Budget and the Baby Boomers

Why anyone votes for this party boggles the mind.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Although I am certain there is no collusion, every gas station in the city is currently competitively priced at 1.129.





javaqueen said:


> and we are sitting at 1.333 a litre





BigDL said:


> Prices in Moncton range between $1.342 to $1.372 which is the maximum regulated price per litre.





Sonal said:


> Closer to $70,000 now.


Wow ............. those are great prices for gas. And to think, we produce 13% of Canada's oil here in NL!!!

Sonal, I did not know about this figure. Merci, mon ami.


----------



## Ottawaman

I guess refining our own oil is just not something Canadians can do?


----------



## Dr.G.

Ottawaman said:


> I guess refining our own oil is just not something Canadians can do?


We have our own oil refinery here in NL, O-man, but since the oil produced in our off shore wells are owned by US companies, the actual oil and the refined gasoline all go to the US. We do get the royalties, which has helped to make us a have province at long last, so we are not complaining about that point.


----------



## groovetube

So we've spun things around so that you'll need oil or some major resource as that to be a have province?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> So we've spun things around so that you'll need oil or some major resource as that to be a have province?


Yes, to a degree. The fishery is gone due to off-shore trawlers from foreign countries, so our main income comes from the off-shore oil wells and the mines in Labrador. Strange to have NL paying into the transfer fund more than we receive, and ON taking out more than they put in for the first time. Sad really, since ON is still 40% of the Canadian economy.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> I guess refining our own oil is just not something Canadians can do?


Sure Canadians can refine it, but it doesn't always make economic sense to refine it before shipping it.

Canada is a small country that exports a LOT of synthetic crude. We do refine it when we have spare refining capacity. If we wanted to refine ALL of it, we would need to invest 10s of billions of dollars in a very specialized type of refining infrastructure and then convince even more people to work in the facilities in Alberta while the province faces a resource labour shortage. Having such a massive refining capacity would subject the province to the whims of the market. Operating the infrastructure at 60 or 70 % capacity would be economically disastrous. 

Also, given the environmental hurdles, what chance does Alberta have of building a new refinery in the next 20 years? And what will be the market for Alberta synthetic crude in 2032?


----------



## groovetube

so we ship the crude, to have it refined and sent back to us. Makes perfect sense!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> so we ship the crude, to have it refined and sent back to us. Makes perfect sense!


Yes, it really does, considering the relatively small market for gasoline in Canada and the fact that the U.S. currently has very cheap excess refining capacity. You could force oil companies to build more refineries in Canada, but expect to pay more for the gasoline as well.

It's something like asking a writer why he doesn't print the books he writes as well.


----------



## groovetube

ridiculous analogy.

A more accurate one would be to expect the printer to print the pages, and also, bind the books.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> If we wanted to refine ALL of it, we would need to invest 10s of billions of dollars in a very specialized type of refining infrastructure and then convince even more people to work in the facilities in Alberta while the province faces a resource labour shortage.


why not ship the crude to eastern provinces for refinery? we already have the pipeline infrastructure.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> why not ship the crude to eastern provinces for refinery? we already have the pipeline infrastructure.


They are running at full capacity in the Maritimes right now with their own local supplies of conventional sweet crude. You'd be asking them to expand capacity to refine oil that's more expensive than what they are getting locally and also asking them to switch technology to refine synthetic crude. As oil production from Newfoundland and Labrador ramps up, I doubt you'd get any takers.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ridiculous analogy.
> 
> A more accurate one would be to expect the printer to print the pages, and also, bind the books.


No, an apt analogy. There's a world of difference between producing synthetic crude and producing gasoline. Your analogy represents a situation that already exists-many printers are already bookbinders and buying bookbinding equipment won't sink the printing business.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No, an apt analogy. There's a world of difference between producing synthetic crude and producing gasoline. Your analogy represents a situation that already exists-many printers are already bookbinders and buying bookbinding equipment won't sink the printing business.


more brainless ideas. 

There are far, far more differences between someone who is a writer, and the printing industry, than there are between crude oil and refining. That's supremely nuts.

No, the analogy between printing and binding is perfect. There are lots of companies who specialize in either and not both. In my earlier days I ran a print shop and we didn't have the binding capabilities beyond simplistic ones so I sent it out all the time. We often didn't get jobs because the winning bid had it all in house.

Nice try though.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, and I also frequently awarded contracts to print shops that had binding in-house because they had the best price.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yes, and I also frequently awarded contracts to print shops that had binding in-house because they had the best price.


exactly.


----------



## eMacMan

To be fair the reason King Harpo believes OAS is not sustainable is that he would prefer to spend the money on military misadventures in Syria, Iran, Pakistan and whatever other conflict Israel can sucker Canada to join in. Oh he has to have some way to pay for those F-35s quadrupling in cost.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> To be fair the reason King Harpo believes OAS is not sustainable is that he would prefer to spend the money on military misadventures in Syria, Iran, Pakistan and whatever other conflict Israel can sucker Canada to join in. Oh he has to have some way to pay for those F-35s quadrupling in cost.


it's really about fooling the population into supporting the lessening of the tax burden on the very rich and the corporations, and letting the middle and lower middle classes shoulder the burden more.

People line up for this.


----------



## BigDL

Ottawaman said:


> I guess refining our own oil is just not something Canadians can do?


The BS spouted by anti-environmentalists.

Saint John NB was scheduled to be the "Energy Hub" of the north-east.

Saint John NB has the largest oil refinery in North America, it has a state of the art Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) terminal and was slated to have a second, large, modern oil refinery until the world economic down turn in 2008. The plans went to pooh because of financing (or more correctly the lack thereof,) not for want of approval. The refinery was approved and set to be built.

The BS, that you aren't allowed to build oil refineries in North America anymore, is just that BS. The speculators in New York are just fine with limited supplies, so as, to jack up the prices at the pumps, for their profits.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> it's really about fooling the population into supporting the lessening of the tax burden on the very rich and the corporations, and letting the middle and lower middle classes shoulder the burden more.
> 
> People line up for this.


More to the point, take away from those with the least means and the least likely to fight back, to pay for the more entitled, that usually vote for Cons.

The Cons picked out the jets first, wrote the specs next, now where to get the % of GDP to pay for the beasties.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> They are running at full capacity in the Maritimes right now with their own local supplies of conventional sweet crude. You'd be asking them to expand capacity to refine oil that's more expensive than what they are getting locally and also asking them to switch technology to refine synthetic crude. As oil production from Newfoundland and Labrador ramps up, I doubt you'd get any takers.


not just the maritimes, i mean ontario & quebec also.

it makes sense for canada across the board. ship crude east and as each province refines it they can also supply the province as well as ship the excess to eastern ports for export.

that way the entire country benefits and we don't have to try and ship oil out of pacific ports that oil tankers have no business trying to navigate.

i'm not the first one to float the idea. others have as well.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> not just the maritimes, i mean ontario & quebec also.
> 
> it makes sense for canada across the board. ship crude east and as each province refines it they can also supply the province as well as ship the excess to eastern ports for export.
> 
> that way the entire country benefits and we don't have to try and ship oil out of pacific ports that oil tankers have no business trying to navigate.
> 
> i'm not the first one to float the idea. others have as well.


We don't even have to ship crude east. The Hibernia field is a couple of hundred kilometers away from the Come By Chance Oil refinery. The crude is brought there, refined there ................. and then sent to the US.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> We don't even have to ship crude east. The Hibernia field is a couple of hundred kilometers away from the Come By Chance Oil refinery. The crude is brought there, refined there ................. and then sent to the US.


Much of the Irving refining capacity of Saint John is shipped to New Brunswick, PEI and North-East States from Maine to Mass. and Maine over to Vermont. Irving and other gas stations as well.

Dartmouth's NS Esso refinery takes care of Nova Scotia for the most part.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Much of the Irving refining capacity of Saint John is shipped to New Brunswick, PEI and North-East States from Maine to Mass. and Maine over to Vermont. Irving and other gas stations as well.
> 
> Dartmouth's NS Esso refinery takes care of Nova Scotia for the most part.


Interesting. From where does this oil come that is to be refined?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> not just the maritimes, i mean ontario & quebec also.
> 
> it makes sense for canada across the board. ship crude east and as each province refines it they can also supply the province as well as ship the excess to eastern ports for export.
> 
> that way the entire country benefits and we don't have to try and ship oil out of pacific ports that oil tankers have no business trying to navigate.
> 
> i'm not the first one to float the idea. others have as well.


So which refineries would you use in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec? And who would be the buyers?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The BS, that you aren't allowed to build oil refineries in North America anymore, is just that BS. The speculators in New York are just fine with limited supplies, so as, to jack up the prices at the pumps, for their profits.


Nobody says you can't build them. But if you need to go through a minimum 10-year environmental assessment to build a power transmission line in Ontario, you would be planning to build a new refinery about 20 years down the line--who knows what energy markets will look like then?

Currently, the US still has excess refining capacity, so keeping those plants open made no sense at all.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. From where does this oil come that is to be refined?


Was mostly all Venezuelan. Not sure if we get crude from further afield presently or not.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Was mostly all Venezuelan. Not sure if we get crude from further afield presently or not.


Why do you suppose the Venezuelans are not refining it themselves?


----------



## groovetube

I give up. Why.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I give up. Why.


I asked BigDL--I know you don't have the answer already.


----------



## MLeh

Because transporting crude is slightly less explosive than transporting refined gasoline?


----------



## Macfury

MLeh said:


> Because transporting crude is slightly less explosive than transporting refined gasoline?


It isn't economically viable for Venezuela to refine all of it. They ship it out to places where it makes more economic sense to locate and operate the refineries. Just like Canada is doing.


----------



## groovetube

thats because macfury says so apparently.


----------



## eMacMan

One of the unfortunate budget casualties is the Katamavik program. One of the very few positive Trudeau legacies. 

I know that our community has benefitted from this program as have many other smaller communities throughout Canada. Local projects this summer will be at a disadvantage without the help of this fine organization.



> Katimavik, a legacy of late Liberal prime minister Pierre Trudeau, was among the casualties of this week's Conservative austerity budget.
> But the youth-exchange program, set up in 1977 as a kind of domestic Peace Corps for young people, is not going quietly. The Montreal-based organization, which was getting about $15 million a year from Ottawa, posted a statement on its website professing surprise at the decision to kill the program.
> It still had a year left in its three-year $45-million long-term funding agreement with the government. Now the money will dry up this June.
> "The decision is even more surprising considering that the recently made public Canadian Heritage summative evaluation of our programs makes very clear how Katimavik's programs are not only relevant, important and valuable, but also how the organization attains its targets and the programs tie in with government-wide priorities and the department's strategic objectives," the statement said.
> Katimavik chief executive Daniel Lapointe apparently hopes to start a grassroots campaign to save the program.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> One of the unfortunate budget casualties is the Katamavik program. One of the very few positive Trudeau legacies.
> 
> I know that our community has benefitted from this program as have many other smaller communities throughout Canada. Local projects this summer will be at a disadvantage without the help of this fine organization.


Yes, I was saddened to hear of the demise of Katamavik as well, eMacMan. I just think of all that might have been saved if Canada were to buy just one less jet.  C'est la vie.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

or perhaps less of the 50 million in gazebos.

Yes this government understands how to spend money alright.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> or perhaps less of the 50 million in gazebos.
> 
> Yes this government understands how to spend money alright.


And you do? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

The NDP will guard the public purse, SINC!


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And you do? :lmao:


I didn't say that I was qualified to run the finances of this country.

But when I see a government who has clearly shown how to waste money as this one has on an unprecedented scale, I will as a citizen speak up.

Even if it makes others a little uncomfortable.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The NDP will guard the public purse, SINC!


Unlike you and a few others, I don't think any of them will "guard the public purse."


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> But when I see a government who has clearly shown how to waste money as this one has on an unprecedented scale, I will as a citizen speak up.


Each government spends more than the one before it--all spending is unprecedented simply due to inflation. The statement is meaningless.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Unlike you and a few others, I don't think any of them will "guard the public purse."


+1. If they could be trusted, they would never have become politicians in the first place.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Each government spends more than the one before it--all spending is unprecedented simply due to inflation. The statement is meaningless.


what utter BS.

Witness everyone, the libertarian (no less), in his desperate attempt at justifying this governments unbelievably brainless wasteful spending.

I think this says it all.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I didn't say that I was qualified to run the finances of this country.
> 
> But when I see a government who has clearly shown how to waste money as this one has on an unprecedented scale, I will as a citizen speak up.
> 
> Even if it makes others a little uncomfortable.


Oh don't worry groove, it did not make me uncomfortable. I just question your self appointed role in being the resident 'expert' on government spending with such bold statements. It reeks of you having the ability to make such pronouncements with authority.

That is the biggest joke in this thread. 

Wait for it . . .


----------



## groovetube

Sinc, where did I say I was 'the resident expert'? DOes one have to be to see the incredible wasteful spending?

Are YOU the resident expert on spending whenever you rail on about the spending of the liberals?

It's a sad day when people put others down, for daring to express their disappointment in our government wasteful spending of our tax dollars. Such is, it seems, the conservative way.

"Shut up, or I will insult you." Seems to be the message I'm getting here!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Shut up, or I will insult you.


Classiest comment of the day!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Classiest comment of the day!


I didn't think so, and I think it's sad that you feel it's classy, but that seems to be the message I'm getting by daring to criticize the government for squandering 50 million and then turning around and killing what many people consider a very good program.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I didn't think so, and I think it's sad that you feel it's classy, but that seems to be the message I'm getting by daring to criticize the government for squandering 50 million and then turning around and killing what many people consider a very good program.


Nice edit on your comment. Just about 10 minutes late.


----------



## groovetube

if you were actually interested in the conversation, you could see what it meant. I edited it for -your- benefit. The preceding line made that clear.

Of course I wouldn't say that to another member here. Nice try though.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Of course I would say that to another member here. Nice try though.


Which member would you say it to?


----------



## groovetube

Sorry that was incorrect. Edited.

But I'm sure you understood what was meant.

Or, maybe not.:baby:

It's always easy to tell when you've got nothing when you start picking at grammar etc.

Classic troll behavior. Noble! It's your calling!


----------



## Macfury

'groove, just read what you write before hitting the "submit reply" button... otherwise others will be subjected to reading it. 

Problem solved!


----------



## BigDL

Oh poor old Our Glorious Leader is having his troubles these days. News of being cranky even in the glow BO and the other Amigo. No uplifting news there.

The budget is not buying him any slack. The Consupports are ticked because the budget didn't go nearly far enough. 

Canadians are upset over the penny wise pound foolish ideological provisions presented and no real plan for our future. 

Look shinny penny gambit did little to provide relief for his tired old government. To be fair it's been what...oh wait...less than a year...and no defence can be uttered except for personal insults directed at his detractors. My! My!

Today the AG will slag on the Joint Strike Fighter "F35" OGL"s, Li'l Petey's and Julie Baby's pet project. 

Oh where oh where is Laurie Hawn on a day like today? :-( :-( Surely he could tell everyone, "get with the program." XX)





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> 'groove, just read what you write before hitting the "submit reply" button... otherwise others will be subjected to reading it.
> 
> Problem solved!


I generally do on the laptop. Later in the eve, on the iphone, it's often too small and I miss small errors. It's ok. Really.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Oh poor old Our Glorious Leader is having his troubles these days. News of being cranky even in the glow BO and the other Amigo. No uplifting news there.
> 
> The budget is not buying him any slack. The Consupports are ticked because the budget didn't go nearly far enough.
> 
> Canadians are upset over the penny wise pound foolish ideological provisions presented and no real plan for our future.
> 
> Look shinny penny gambit did little to provide relief for his tired old government. To be fair it's been what...oh wait...less than a year...and no defence can be uttered except for personal insults directed at his detractors. My! My!
> 
> Today the AG will slag on the Joint Strike Fighter "F35" OGL"s, Li'l Petey's and Julie Baby's pet project.
> 
> Oh where oh where is Laurie Hawn on a day like today? :-( :-( Surely he could tell everyone, "get with the program." XX)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


They're going to have to wear this one after hollering about it in the last election. Nevermind the lies about some contract they signed.

We have to kick seniors in the teeth, but we have plenty of money for boondoggles like this.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER CONS - This will help them in the polls!*

Crash or burn? The Conservatives’ F-35 dilemma - The Globe and Mail

Incompetent deformers in charge of the Federal purse...should Canadians be worried?
Why, yes! Throw these scallywags in the brink. It all starts with HARPER.

Support the troops...scumbag CONS.

Brought to you by JNN - "purveyors of super news for the CONS since 2011, chit"


----------



## CubaMark

Y'know... I've come to realize. Sheila Fraser.... Michael Ferguson... _Is there a more important job in the federal government than the Auditor General?_ The last "check and balance" against out of control bureaucrats and politicians.

*Auditor general: F-35 funding frozen; Conservatives promise public review*


----------



## Macfury

The system ultimately CAN work. Although this part is worrisome:



> In its response, the government said it is taking the project out of the Defence Department's hands and giving it to *Public Works*, with a committee of senior bureaucrats from different departments providing oversight.


These guys have been responsible for the insane cost overruns of the House of Parliament renovations.


----------



## i-rui

i would have liked the AG to investigate & comment on Nigel Wright. There is an obvious conflict of interest with Harper's chief of staff being a former managing director for Onex Corporation (and he plans to return) who have a direct financial interest in seeing the f-35 be successful.


----------



## CubaMark

*Yeeesh! This is a cringe-worthy read. The complete technological cluelessness on display....
*
*'Anonymous' Toews threats probe wilts under MP questioning*



> A committee charged with looking into threats against Public Safety Minister Vic Toews by the hackers group Anonymous morphed into an examination of how the government handles cybersecurity as the experts appearing in front of MPs struggled to explain where they fit into the committee's investigation.





> In the committee's first meeting on the subject of threats against Toews, House of Commons staff suggested it was a waste of time to try to track down whoever posted the video anonymously to a website





> At one point, the RCMP and Public Safety's national security expert couldn't say which department would be able to track down the IP address that could help identify who uploaded the videos. The RCMP doesn't have a mandate to work in cybersecurity,


*...worth reading the transcript of the live chat following the article...*



> *11:37 - Kady:* Yes, it's come to this: Laurie Hawn is asking for tips on internet security. Moffa points him to the public safety department website. I wonder when Agent Jones will snap and suggest that an MP just *Google* it already.





> *12:39 - Kady*: So It's Come To This III: Despite being pointed to the public safety website - as mentioned earlier at the meeting - Zimmer forces Gordon to provide two security tips for protecting yourself against digital threats. He goes with firewalls -- keep 'em up to date -- and "think before you click". This is going to be one of those days he'll remember forever, I suspect.
> 
> *12:40 - Kady:* And with that, the torture of our poor, long suffering witnesses ends. Meeting adjourned! Let us never speak of it again!


(CBC)


----------



## jimbotelecom

Time to put an end to this circus act!

Harper needs to be caught red handed ordering the CONS to cheat, break the law, do what ever is necessary to stay in power.

We have a Deformed PM.


----------



## BigDL

Do you suggest we now refer to "Our Glorious DeformaTory?" 

Sounds good to me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER CONS - new communications duck appointed - Pile On!*

Harper names new communications chief amid F-35 storm - The Globe and Mail

How long will this one last. HARPER burns through staff quickly. I give him 7 months.
Ready...aim (your now unlicensed)......

brought to you by JNN - Stick a fork in them Jeb - they'll never get another majority".


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper names new communications chief amid F-35 storm - The Globe and Mail
> 
> How long will this one last. HARPER burns through staff quickly. I give him 7 months.
> Ready...aim (your now unlicensed)......
> 
> brought to you by JNN - Stick a fork in them Jeb - they'll never get another majority".


Good luck to anyone doing the job it is 24/7/365... like to see any one here try and do it.


----------



## groovetube

like there are no other people who have demanding positions that require 24/7

pul-lease.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> like there are no other people who have demanding positions that require 24/7
> 
> pul-lease.


None that compare to this one in this country...


----------



## i-rui

coordinating all those distractions & keeping track of all the lies must be very hard. 

not to mention the toll it must take on one's soul.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> None that compare to this one in this country...


Complete and utter BS. There are plenty of high stress positions in this country that require insane hours and super high expectations.

Just not the prestige of doing it for the prime minister of canada.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> None that compare to this one in this country...


Of course ehMacers at large know better, screature. Until today, they didn't even know the staffer's name.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Of course ehMacers at large know better, screature. Until today, they didn't even know the staffer's name.


:lmao: Exactly.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> ...Just not the *prestige* of doing it for the prime minister of canada.


You have no idea, not prestige, *responsibility*... keep it up gt... it's very entertaining.


----------



## eMacMan

jimbotelecom said:


> Harper names new communications chief amid F-35 storm - The Globe and Mail
> 
> How long will this one last. HARPER burns through staff quickly. I give him 7 months.
> Ready...aim (your now unlicensed)......
> 
> brought to you by JNN - Stick a fork in them Jeb - they'll never get another majority".



Zero prestige in being the Kings designated liar. 

Lots of stress involved, making sure the third lie doesn't contradict either of the previous two. That is of course just the first press conference, the job goes downhill from there.



screature said:


> Good luck to anyone doing the job it is 24/7/365... like to see any one here try and do it.


Thank you no, I will leave that sort of job to those who excel at it. Thankfully that ain't me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER CONS - Support the troops HARPER!*

Deep cuts to military mark reversal for Harper - The Globe and Mail

Rug removed from under their feet. Thanks for the support HARPER!

Brought to you by JNN - Since 2011 - bringing you scintillating journalistic pieces that make HARPER look like the stooge he is.


----------



## bryanc

jimbotelecom said:


> Deep cuts to military mark reversal for Harper - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Rug removed from under their feet. Thanks for the support HARPER!
> 
> Brought to you by JNN - Since 2011 - bringing you scintillating journalistic pieces that make HARPER look like the stooge he is.


I haven't had time to look into the details of this, but I'm told this is a shell game; Harper is not really cutting the military. He's moved several previously military budget items under other ministries, so those costs are no longer part of the military budget, but they're still being paid for by tax dollars.

So this is like someone saying "we're going to cut your salary by $1000/year, but we'll take over paying your mortgage." It's just a sneaky way of increasing military spending while appearing to cut it.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You have no idea, not prestige, *responsibility*... keep it up gt... it's very entertaining.


yes screecher, there are no other jobs in Canada certainly not in the corporate world that has this level of responsibility whatsoever.

This is so brainless it's almost funny.


----------



## Macfury

Not yours anyway, groove.


----------



## groovetube

boy that was weak. Even for you.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I haven't had time to look into the details of this, but I'm told this is a shell game; Harper is not really cutting the military. He's moved several previously military budget items under other ministries, so those costs are no longer part of the military budget, but they're still being paid for by tax dollars.
> 
> So this is like someone saying "we're going to cut your salary by $1000/year, but we'll take over paying your mortgage." It's just a sneaky way of increasing military spending while appearing to cut it.


Same for the CBC.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> I haven't had time to look into the details of this, but I'm told this is a shell game; Harper is not really cutting the military. He's moved several previously military budget items under other ministries, so those costs are no longer part of the military budget, but they're still being paid for by tax dollars.
> 
> So this is like someone saying "we're going to cut your salary by $1000/year, but we'll take over paying your mortgage." It's just a sneaky way of increasing military spending while appearing to cut it.


This is what they are doing with the Gov. General .............. cutting his salary, but paying some of his income tax to off-set this loss in pay. tptptptp


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> yes screecher, there are no other jobs in Canada certainly not in the corporate world that has this level of responsibility whatsoever.
> 
> This is so brainless it's almost funny.


Since when does a corporation have the responsibility for running the country... it is pretty brainless on your part.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Since when does a corporation have the responsibility for running the country... it is pretty brainless on your part.


You've never suffered the responsibility of carrying the backbeat on your drum kit while playing in a bar in The Soo, screature. You have no real world experience.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> You've never suffered the responsibility of carrying the backbeat on your drum kit while playing in a bar in The Soo, screature. You have no real world experience.


Until you throw open the curtain on your rarified existence you have no business making these childish personal jabs.

You have no business making personal jabs anyway.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Until you throw open the curtain on your rarified existence you have no business making these childish personal jabs.


I value my privacy. Having had personal experience with someone on EhMac when I was a little less guarded, I have learned my lesson.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Until you throw open the curtain on your rarified existence you have no business making these childish *personal jabs*.
> 
> You have no business making personal jabs anyway.


Just no long as others here make them on a regular basis I see no reason why you would single out MF vs. the other numerous guilty parties. In fact I see very few regular posters here who have not been guilty at one time or another and certainly in pointing to others three fingers are pointing back at me...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Just no long as others here make them on a regular basis I see no reason why you would single out MF vs. the other numerous guilty parties. In fact I see very few regular posters here who have not been guilty at one time or another and certainly in pointing to others three fingers are pointing back at me...


I always feel like a stain on the pure wind, driven snow on EhMac!


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> Until you throw open the curtain on your rarified existence you have no business making these childish personal jabs.
> 
> You have no business making personal jabs anyway.


It's all part of the duties of Constables On Patrol, mrjimmy, perhaps like Our Glorious ReformaTory they're on a mission from God.



+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Since when does a corporation have the responsibility for running the country... it is pretty brainless on your part.


Speaking of, are we talking about the job of the prime minister, or his communications director?

Which is it? Somehow you've morphed this into making the job "running the country". Wake up.



mrjimmy said:


> Until you throw open the curtain on your rarified existence you have no business making these childish personal jabs.
> 
> You have no business making personal jabs anyway.


That's two attempts from macfury on this topic. I've gotten quite used to macfury losing steam and going much further than personal jabs as to drag up someone's personal life. It merely shows him for what he really is. Best t just ignore it.


----------



## Macfury

If you've gotten used to it--don't mention it at all!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Speaking of, are we talking about the job of the prime minister, or his communications director?
> 
> *Which is it? Somehow you've morphed this into making the job "running the country". Wake up.*


Duh... the Communications Director works for the most powerful person in the country (the CEO of Canada if you will by way of analogy) and next to his Chief of Staff is his most important, powerful and influential staff member.

Wake Up Indeed!!!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> If you've gotten used to it--don't mention it at all!


Not to mention that gt is one of the worst around here for making things personal...  If there is any chite being thrown around you can pretty much rest assured he is involved. He just can't help himself, in fact he seems to thrive on it.


----------



## BigDL

FiveO! FiveO! Be cool everyone.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Duh... the Communications Director works for the most powerful person in the country (the CEO of Canada if you will by way of analogy) and next to his Chief of Staff is his most important, powerful and influential staff member.
> 
> Wake Up Indeed!!!


Always the chest thumping. Sorry but to suggest that there aren't other jobs with the same level of demand and responsibility means you must live in a shoe.



screature said:


> Not to mention that gt is one of the worst around here for making things personal...  If there is any chite being thrown around you can pretty much rest assured he is involved. He just can't help himself, in fact he seems to thrive on it.


That's funny. I see plenty of threads around here with you sparring regularly with everyone else. All the time. Macfury, well he's a self admitted troll, so I treat as such. If he wishes to act differently, then I'll treat him differently. 

Generally, the unholy trinity is always involved in every squabble. Each, and every one of them. But it's even funnier when you whine and complain about others for it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> That's funny. I see plenty of threads around here with you sparring regularly with everyone else. All the time. Macfury, well he's a self admitted troll, so I treat as such. If he wishes to act differently, then I'll treat him differently.


Seriously, I don't care how you treat me. Most of the time I don't even read your stuff.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> FiveO! FiveO! Be cool everyone.


The "not me!!!" act generally gets played when they get whiney...

I just watched a severe accident in front of my building occur, A person was hit by and trapped under a streetcar. Man it was amazing to watch the fireman and paramedics move so fast. So I'll just let these trolls yammer away for a while. I'll take a breather for a bit.


----------



## Macfury

Yep, multi-tasking can be a drag for some.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yep, multi-tasking can be a drag for some.


there may be help for that, but you'll need to find that on your own.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Always the chest thumping. Sorry but t*o suggest that there aren't other jobs with the same level of demand and responsibility *means you must live in a shoe.
> 
> That's funny. *I see plenty of threads around here with you sparring regularly with everyone else.* All the time. Macfury, well he's a self admitted troll, so I treat as such. If he wishes to act differently, then I'll treat him differently.
> 
> Generally, *the unholy trinity is always involved in every squabble*. Each, and every one of them. But it's even funnier when you whine and complain about others for it.


Name one... just one... aside from Cabinet Ministers.

Sure I spar with others here and make the occasional personal pot shot... you... you thrive on them. I almost never see posts from you where you offer helpful advice or a word of congratulations or encouragement. Maybe it is because you only troll threads where conflict is likely and are bored with threads that are based on congeniality or good humour.

Unholy trinity? If you mean by this yourself (and at least two others who know who they are) then yeah I would agree with you... you are involved in each and every one of them and start plenty.

As far as whining and complaining goes... Pot meet Kettle.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Name one... just one... aside from Cabinet Ministers.
> 
> Sure I spar with others here and make the occasional personal pot shot... you... you thrive on them. I almost never see posts from you where you offer helpful advice or a word of congratulations or encouragement. Maybe it is because you only troll threads where conflict is likely and are bored with threads that are based on congeniality or good humour.
> 
> Unholy trinity? If you mean by this yourself (and at least two others who know who they are) then yeah I would agree with you... you are involved in each and every one of them and start plenty.
> 
> As far as whining and complaining goes... Pot meet Kettle.


ocassionally?? :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: oh cut your crap.


----------



## MLeh

Children ...

Oh, I'm sorry, not children.

Just acting like children.

Actually, to describe this as acting like children is an insult to children everywhere.

Speaking of taking a breather ... I keep being reminded why I need to stop coming to this place.


----------



## groovetube

MLeh said:


> Children ...
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry, not children.
> 
> Just acting like children.
> 
> *Actually, to describe this as acting like children is an insult to children everywhere.*
> 
> Speaking of taking a breather ... I keep being reminded why I need to stop coming to this place.


Sadly you're probably right.  (I don't exclude myself from this)


----------



## screature

MLeh said:


> Children ...
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry, not children.
> 
> Just acting like children.
> 
> Actually, to describe this as acting like children is an insult to children everywhere.
> 
> Speaking of taking a breather ... I keep being reminded why I need to stop coming to this place.


No MLeh you need to come to this place more often to keep us children "in line". 

Personally I apologize for my part in your feeling this way and in this regard I will no longer be engaging with certain individuals to keep down the noise. It is completely unproductive and as you suggest juvenile... 

Unlike the Comedy Network tag line, engaging in such exchanges is not "time well wasted" It is just a waste of energy and time and there are much, much better things to do...

I hope you have a wonderful Easter/Passover week-end.


----------



## jimbotelecom

He started it.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha.


----------



## groovetube

The $10-billion question: why isn't the F-35 scandal on the front page of "important" newspapers? | Vancouver, Canada | Straight.com

damn 'liberal media...'


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa professor Hassan Diab to be extradited - Ottawa - CBC News

Anyone following this disaster of our government extraditing a citizen even though it's known the evidence is likely too weak to convict, being hinged on dodgy handwriting analysis?

I also read that the french doesn't reciprocate in extraditing it's citizens.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> Ottawa professor Hassan Diab to be extradited - Ottawa - CBC News
> 
> Anyone following this disaster of our government extraditing a citizen even though it's known the evidence is likely too weak to convict, being hinged on dodgy handwriting analysis?
> 
> I also read that the french doesn't reciprocate in extraditing it's citizens.


Thanks for posting. This is very sad news and ultimately it is another assault on human rights/personal freedom by HARPER and the CON way.


----------



## groovetube

Conservatives lied about F-35s



> There is no moving on from a lie this big.


----------



## Macfury

Canadian job growth soars in March

Well done, Stephen Harper team. The corporate tax cuts have led to the forecast jobs! 



> Canada's economy churned out a surprisingly robust 82,300 jobs in March, the biggest jump in more than three years, knocking the unemployment rate down to 7.2 per cent for the first time since September 2011.
> 
> The jump in employment last month was the biggest since September 2008, led by full-time and private-sector hiring. That followed a loss of 2,800 positions in February, which had pushed the jobless rate to 7.4 per cent.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Canadian job growth soars in March
> 
> Well done, Stephen Harper team. The corporate tax cuts have led to the forecast jobs!


"Statistics Canada said Thursday the employment gains spanned several sectors, including health care and social assistance, as well as information, culture and recreation, and public administration. Job growth the manufacturing sector also edged up. " This was from that article.

I don't think that these areas received the "corporate tax cuts". Some of them seem to be in the public sector. This will spell doom for the Canadian economy, since they are public service jobs providing needed public services for Canadians ........... and thus, are unionized positions ............... and we all know how unions can kill an economy. 

Sadly, some of this growth was also in "culture", and that industry should just be crushed altogether to rid us of more wasted tax dollars. Case in point, in 2001 the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra saw management of the orchestra initiate a lockout and salaries of the players were cut by an average of 20 percent. In 2002, the orchestra had declared bankruptcy. In 2003, the orchestra came out of receivership. They should have let it go under. Alberta already has the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra. Of course, the ESO's budget is over $8 million, and its players are the highest paid Canadian orchestral musicians west of Toronto. Thus, another cultural disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Canadian job growth soars in March
> 
> Well done, Stephen Harper team. The corporate tax cuts have led to the forecast jobs!


since there isn't any real evidence that corp tax cuts directly lead to job creation, you're full of it (as usual). Repeated requests for this evidence have so far been ignored, and it's clear why...

Nice try though.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> since there isn't any real evidence that corp tax cuts directly lead to job creation, you're full of it (as usual). Repeated requests for this evidence have so far been ignored, and it's clear why...
> 
> Nice try though.


Don't be absurd, gt. If The Harper Government of Canada, and Macfury, say that these cuts will "lead to job creation", who are you to say otherwise??? Get with the program. The Harper Government of Canada will lead Canada into a golden age of prosperity. Too bad we don't produce those F-35s, a billion dollar industry. Hopefully, we shall get some of the contracting jobs for the new prisons. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Nothing like good economic news to get the Toronto NDP contingent in a sour mood!


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Some of them seem to be in the public sector. This will spell doom for the Canadian economy, since they are public service jobs providing needed public services for Canadians ........... and thus, are unionized positions ............... and we all know how unions can kill an economy.


Dr. G: Some of the jobs were int he public sector, but thankfully not all of these are unionized jobs, thus the positions can be easily eliminated later. The services they provide are often "desired" but not "needed." 

Still, much of the public money now available to hire is certainly the result of swelling overall revenues, resulting from the Harper tax cuts.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Don't be absurd, gt. If The Harper Government of Canada, and Macfury, say that these cuts will "lead to job creation", who are you to say otherwise??? Get with the program. The Harper Government of Canada will lead Canada into a golden age of prosperity. Too bad we don't produce those F-35s, a billion dollar industry. *Hopefully, we shall get some of the contracting jobs for the new prisons.* We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I wish people would stop spreading this falsehood. There are no new prisons budgeted for, period. There are planned upgrades and expansions to existing facilities as many of them are already currently overpopulated and in need of upgrading and renovation.

Page 277 Budget 2012



> Public Safety Portfolio
> 
> With the heaviest focus placed on maintaining service and preserving programs that are critical to protecting the safety of Canadians, Public Safety Canada will reduce spending in areas of declining necessity and derive savings from business transformation and organizational restructuring.
> 
> The Royal Canadian Mounted Police will be pursuing administrative and operational support efficiencies, with minimal impacts on direct policing operations.
> 
> The Canada Border Services Agency will streamline internal services and low-performing processes.
> 
> The Correctional Service of Canada will find efficiencies in its operations and will continue to use existing facilities. *The Government has not built a single new prison since 2006 and has no intention of building any new prisons.*.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dr. G: Some of the jobs were int he public sector, but thankfully not all of these are unionized jobs, thus the positions can be easily eliminated later. The services they provide are often "desired" but not "needed."
> 
> Still, much of the public money now available to hire is certainly the result of swelling overall revenues, resulting from the Harper tax cuts.


I agree. Who needs 99% of the service of the public servents. Make sure the checks get sent out and the garbage is picked up weekly ............... the rest is fluff.

I would not be wasting the "public money" to hire more people ............ think of the jets and subs that could be purchased with these funds? Granted, a jet or sub might not have the life span of a person, but if we cut health care, starting from pre-natal care all the way up to geriatric care, our life expectancy would decrease and jets and subs would outlive the people that our military hardware protects. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I wish people would stop spreading this falsehood. There are no new prisons budgeted for, period. There are planned upgrades and expansions to existing facilities as many of them are already currently overpopulated and in need of upgrading and renovation.
> 
> Page 277 Budget 2012


What!?!? St.John's was promised a new prison to be built here. That was a promise made by PM Harper himself when he was here campaigning in the last election. He made this promise since he felt that upgrades and expansions would not be in the best interest to our current facility, due to it's age and condition. 

Good thing we are not in the House of Commons, because you would not get away with calling the PM a liar.

Of course, he did make the promise contingent upon us voting for him .......... and the two St.John's ridings did go NDP ............. so maybe that is the reason we are not getting a new prison.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> What!?!? *St.John's was promised a new prison to be built here. That was a promise made by PM Harper himself when he was here campaigning in the last election.* He made this promise since he felt that upgrades and expansions would not be in the best interest to our current facility, due to it's age and condition.
> 
> Good thing we are not in the House of Commons, because you would not get away with calling the PM a liar.
> 
> Of course, he did make the promise contingent upon us voting for him .......... and the two St.John's ridings did go NDP ............. so maybe that is the reason we are not getting a new prison.


Linkie? The only thing I can find regarding a new prison in St. John's is from MHA Andrew Parsons Newfoundland and Labrador's *Liberal* Party justice critic who was calling for one.

Knock down St. John's prison: critic



> Newfoundland and Labrador's Liberal Party justice critic is calling on the province to tear down the prison in St. John's and replace it with a new one.
> 
> Her Majesty's Penitentiary - built more than 150 years ago - is the oldest and largest prison in the province.
> 
> MHA Andrew Parsons recently toured the deteriorating facility.
> *
> He said the province has a duty to create a better prison.*
> 
> "These are people who are relatives, family members, and the whole point is when they go into an institution, they should come out rehabilitated because they are going to be released back into society," Parsons said.
> *
> He acknowledged it's not easy to ask taxpayers to fund a new prison, but argued certain standards must be met.*
> 
> *Parsons believes the province is waiting for the federal government to invest in a new prison, but he says he doesn't believe that will happen.*
> 
> Her Majesty's Penitentiary was built in 1859, with renovations in 1945, 1981 and 1994.


Oh wait here is another... June 27, 2011

No replacement for HMP expected soon

This was after the election so if the PM had made such a promise one would expect the media and the opposition to be all over it... not a word about a promise from the PM.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> What!?!? St.John's was promised a new prison to be built here. That was a promise made by PM Harper himself when he was here campaigning in the last election. He made this promise since he felt that upgrades and expansions would not be in the best interest to our current facility, due to it's age and condition.
> 
> Good thing we are not in the House of Commons, because you would not get away with calling the PM a liar.
> 
> Of course, he did make the promise contingent upon us voting for him .......... and the two St.John's ridings did go NDP ............. so maybe that is the reason we are not getting a new prison.


Not to mention that Ontario will need to spend a billion to buck up for the new crime agenda.

oh before there's a screech for a linkie: Canada News: Federal omnibus crime bill to cost Ontario $1 billion, province says - thestar.com


----------



## jimbotelecom

More cell space or an increased number of units is part of the plan. Hey we'll have more efficient prisons and sell off the security to the private sector. 
If HARPER can getaway with privatizing prison ownership, this too is part of the plan. 

And crime rates are dropping. Idiots!


----------



## dtaylor

The wise money is spent on early intervention and intensive rehabilitation -- a dollar spent on that will save many dollars later. 

The number of people with serious mental health issues who are incarcerated rather than treated is staggering. Stacking people up like cordwood is inhumane, expensive, and creates more problems than it solves. Most people incarcerated for crimes will eventually be set free. As a society, do we want them to come out more broken than they went in?

Mr. Harper's "tough on crime" experiment will be at enormous expense, both financial and human. 

Texas conservatives reject Harper's crime plan - Politics - CBC News

.
.
.


----------



## groovetube

don't worry, the Harper crew KNOW the costs! They have it all costed out don't you know!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## jimbotelecom

Not to mention the inevitable influx of first nations into the penalty system that will come with territorial and Eco-resistance of the tar pipe construction to the south and to the west. Plenty of new space to incarcerate radicals and pornographers eh. 

Who voted for these tyrants again?


----------



## groovetube

those damn eco-nuts and their "foreign money", resisting interests of the foreign owned oil companies!


----------



## Macfury

So tough to take on the good economic news, they're rehashing this stuff again.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> So tough to take on the good economic news, they're rehashing this stuff again.


But MF, likely the majority of these jobs are minimum wage. The real victory will be when The Conservatives™ have broken the backs of all the unions and abolished the minimum wage. Employment will skyrocket! They will be passing out $3.00/ hour jobs like candy on Halloween!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> But MF, likely the majority of these jobs are minimum wage. The real victory will be when The Conservatives™ have broken the backs of all the unions and abolished the minimum wage. Employment will skyrocket! They will be passing out $3.00/ hour jobs like candy on Halloween!


Laugh if you will, but this is a good idea. Do away with the minimum wage (which I think is a provincial matter, however), and small businesses will boom with employment opportunities. Why hire one person at $12 an hour, when you can hire four people at $3 an hour. The could even give companies, large and small, a tax break -- fire one full-time expensive employee, especially a unionized worker, and hire 3-5 part time employess, and you get a tax break. Unemployment numbers would plunge and The Harper Government of Canada would look even better. Sounds like another win-win to me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yes it's just so obvious that the economy is robust. Apologist.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Laugh if you will, but this is a good idea. Do away with the minimum wage (which *I think is a provincial matter, however*), and small businesses will boom with employment opportunities. Why hire one person at $12 an hour, when you can hire four people at $3 an hour. The could even give companies, large and small, a tax break -- fire one full-time expensive employee, especially a unionized worker, and hire 3-5 part time employess, and you get a tax break. Unemployment numbers would plunge and The Harper Government of Canada would look even better. Sounds like another win-win to me.


It is provincial jurisdiction.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> But MF, likely the majority of these jobs are minimum wage. The real victory will be when The Conservatives™ have broken the backs of all the unions and abolished the minimum wage. Employment will skyrocket! They will be passing out $3.00/ hour jobs like candy on Halloween!


The unions have pretty much snapped their own backs, mrjimmy. The Conservatives need only watch the train wreck wrought by union leaders.

However, if the Conservatives can defang and remove the poison sacs from CUPE, I will be doubly impressed.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I stand corrected. Apologists. Excuse me.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The unions have pretty much snapped their own backs, mrjimmy. The Conservatives need only watch the train wreck wrought by union leaders.
> .


I'm not quite sure how implementing back to work legislation and the link below is 'snapping their own backs' MF. But please, do keep trying.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...air-canada-flight-disruptions/article2362836/

This is an anti-labour, pro corporate Government, no need to state otherwise. Elected by the corps, for the corps.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I'm not quite sure how implementing back to work legislation and the link below is 'snapping their own backs' MF. But please, do keep trying.
> 
> Move by Labour Minister quashes fears of Air Canada flight disruptions - The Globe and Mail
> 
> This is an anti-labour, pro corporate Government, no need to state otherwise. Elected by the corps, for the corps.


The unions mistakenly believe "the people" are on their side, so they stage unpopular strikes that are popular to end. I don't believe in back-to-work legislation, however. Merely let the employer fire the workers and hire new ones.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The unions mistakenly believe "the people" are on their side, so they stage unpopular strikes that are popular to end. I don't believe in back-to-work legislation, however. Merely let the employer fire the workers and hire new ones.


Like pilots for example. I hear they are a dime a dozen. Those big jets fly themselves! 

As far as 'the people' being on their side, successive governments have made it their mission to demonize unionized workers to the point where the 'average Joe and Josephine' wage slave feels like it's 'us versus them'.

I find it ironic that Mr. and Mrs. Average want to bring unionized workers down to their level rather than bringing themselves up to the unionized worker's level. If I can't have it, why should they? 

Sheer brilliance on the part of the spin doctors!


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Like pilots for example. I hear they are a dime a dozen. Those big jets fly themselves!
> 
> As far as 'the people' being on their side, successive governments have made it their mission to demonize unionized workers to the point where the 'average Joe and Josephine wage slave feels like it's 'us versus them'.
> 
> I find it ironic that Mr. and Mrs. Average want to bring unionized workers down to their level rather than bringing themselves up to the unionized worker's level. If I can't have it, why should they?


It has nothing to do with bringing anyone to anyone's level. Taxpayers don't want to support a privileged class of government worker with benefits that border on the ludicrous. That's understandable. As for private sector unions, the public largely doesn't care, provided they aren't held hostage.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> *It has nothing to do with bringing anyone to anyone's level.* Taxpayers don't want to support a privileged class of government worker with benefits that border on the ludicrous. That's understandable. As for private sector unions, the public largely doesn't care, provided they aren't held hostage.


If you don't think so then you have not been testing the waters of public sentiment. Unionized workers, be they public or private sector have been actively demonized since the days of Reagan. 

They have been marketed as lazy, undeserving (read unqualified and easily replaced) and greedy (read corrupt and entitled). You say it enough times and people are going to believe it. 'Having less' has been sold as the new status quo and unions become the easy targets of excess. 

Distract from corrupt corporations and government. It's your neighbour up the street with the new car that's the problem.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> It is provincial jurisdiction.


That is what I thought. Too bad, since the federal government could have also saved money. Well, at least they have PSAC workers to fire, which could be a savings. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The unions mistakenly believe "the people" are on their side, so they stage unpopular strikes that are popular to end. I don't believe in back-to-work legislation, however. Merely let the employer fire the workers and hire new ones.


Right on, Brother Macfury. Or, here is a possibility -- with the influx of new prisoners, rather than spend money of renos and upgrades, put these prisoners to work as indentured servants. Thus, no need to provide salaries (a big plus for the companies that hire these "workers"), no need to worry about OAS, Canada Pension, EI, etc, and no more strikes. Again, a win-win for one and all. 

We could even do what the English did with Australia -- Canada could send all of its hardened criminals to some island ............ say the Island of Newfoundland, and set up a new colony. We are a huge province in terms of space, but with only about 517,000 people. It would be a harsh penalty, since the uninhabited places here in Newfoundland are peat bogs and marshes, or solid bedrock .............. but then, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> It is provincial jurisdiction.


Except in Federally regulated industries.


----------



## Dr.G.

Deeper investigation of GSA spending needed, lawmaker says - CNN.com

Luckily, this could never happen in Canada.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Except in Federally regulated industries.


Where the federal minimum wage conforms to the provincial minimum wage in the province in which they work. The uniform federal minimum has been abolished long ago.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> If you don't think so then you have not been testing the waters of public sentiment. Unionized workers, be they public or private sector have been actively demonized since the days of Reagan.
> 
> They have been marketed as lazy, undeserving (read unqualified and easily replaced) and greedy (read corrupt and entitled). You say it enough times and people are going to believe it. 'Having less' has been sold as the new status quo and unions become the easy targets of excess.
> 
> Distract from corrupt corporations and government. It's your neighbour up the street with the new car that's the problem.


Only public sector unions or those that actively "serve" government. The average citizen doesn't mind seeing a CAW because they can always buy the car of their choice from a non-union automaker. They have no choice but to pay their obeisance at the thrones of the public service unions. The hostility toward them is well-deserved.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha, yeah since the Japanese car is so much cheaper!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha, yeah since the Japanese car is so much cheaper!


Better made.


----------



## groovetube

Opinions aside, that doesn't stop people from buying domestic. In context of the thread, so?


----------



## Sonal

What happens between a private company and its workers are their business. Either they work it out or they don't, the company either becomes a really great place to have a job, or a really awful one. 

But in the public sector, it's a different story. I'm not against public sector unions striking, but (at least in Toronto) we've had a number of bad examples of it recently. (For example, I can't see how anyone can justify the illegal TTC Wildcat strike.) When it comes down to issues where union employees have a significant advantage over the average employed citizen, it's very difficult to be sympathetic towards protecting privilege. 

What I do wish, however, is that there was greater public transparency in public union negotiations. Both sides put out limited information complete with their own spin. I'd love to see what exactly is being argued over, exactly what the current contract is, and what is being offered.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> What happens between a private company and its workers are their business. Either they work it out or they don't, the company either becomes a really great place to have a job, or a really awful one.


Exactly, Sonal. For the record, I buy only domestic automobiles, made by union labour--probably out of a sense of misguided loyalty to American brands.


----------



## i-rui

*OMG what a jackass*



> If there were awards for the worst taste remarks ever delivered in Parliament, John Williamson would surely get the prize. Aside from the fact that *Martin Luther King was assassinated with a long gun*, Williamson's appropriation of King's speech denouncing racism, in service of the destruction of the long-gun registry, is callous in the extreme.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCEjNygm6Y

Long-Gun Registry: Tory MP John Williamson Quotes Martin Luther King In Speech Celebrating Destruction Of Records (VIDEO)


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCEjNygm6Y
> 
> Long-Gun Registry: Tory MP John Williamson Quotes Martin Luther King In Speech Celebrating Destruction Of Records (VIDEO)


That is shocking, i-rui. This MP is ignorant of the facts and what is even more shocking is that he was reading this speech rather than if it just came out in the heat of debate. Shocking to use this partial passage for the reasons you suggest. tptptptp

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

That's simply bizarre and inappropriate.


----------



## BigDL

Wow! Penny wise pound foolish indeed. 

Our Glorious ReformaTory needs jails and jets badly enough to cut CAP ([email protected]) how sadly this fact defines this government.

Public Internet Access Points


----------



## Macfury

Public Internet Access sites? How about government-funded free phone booths? Good riddance.


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> Wow! Penny wise pound foolish indeed.
> 
> Our Glorious ReformaTory needs jails and jets badly enough to cut CAP ([email protected]) how sadly this fact defines this government.
> 
> Public Internet Access Points


So much for economic development and jobs jobs jobs. Ball and chain instead. Disgusting slimy HARPER in all his glory.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> So much for economic development and jobs jobs jobs. Ball and chain instead. Disgusting slimy HARPER in all his glory.


The last economic report showed that the country is indeed creating jobs. Let them go to to the libraries, which also offer free computers and Internet.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> The last economic report showed that the country is indeed creating jobs. Let them go to to the libraries, which also offer free computers and Internet.


That's very funny MF, since one of the cuts from the last budget is $15 million to the Community Access Programs that funds public access computers and internet in libraries and community centres. $15 M is what, the cost of the cup holders in the F35? Or one hour's worth of oil industry subsidy?

Ottawa cuts CAP public web access funding


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Watch Prime Minister the Right Honourable Stephen Harper lie right to your face during the last election campaign. With a smirk, no less.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






EDIT: Not sure if this YouTube embed is working or not, Flash is being a PITA on my rapidly obsolescent G5 PowerMac. Here's the link APRIL 8 2011: Harper says contract shelters Canada from increase in F-35 costs - YouTube


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> That's very funny MF, since one of the cuts from the last budget is $15 million to the Community Access Programs that funds public access computers and internet in libraries and community centres.


These should be funded on the provincial or municipal level--if at all.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Not sure if this YouTube embed is working or not, Flash is being a PITA on my rapidly obsolescent G5 PowerMac.


Head to your local CAP centre to find out!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> These should be funded on the provincial or municipal level--if at all.


Why fund them, or libraries for that matter? If someone can't afford a computer or a smartphone to get web access, too freakin' bad. And if they can't get a job, because they are required to apply online, or download the application online, or read about the job posting online, well, not our problem. 

And if they are to die because they can't afford food or shelter, "let them hurry up and do so and decrease the surplus population"*.

* Dickens character, Ebenezer Scrooge


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Head to your local CAP centre to find out!


Did you enjoy the video?


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Did you enjoy the video?


Just the usual bafflegab about "contigencies."


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Why fund them, or libraries for that matter? If someone can't afford a computer or a smartphone to get web access, too freakin' bad. And if they can't get a job, because they are required to apply online, or download the application online, or read about the job posting online, well, not our problem.


Yep. Or that poor guy that gets off in the library while watching porn on the free Internet. Heaven knows what that poor guy would be up to if he didn't get his free porn!

I'll bet if you dig hard enough you can find some poor sap who was unable to apply for a job because his free Internet was cut off. Or another who says all he needed was a suit supplied by the government so he could attend the first interview.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Just the usual bafflegab about "contigencies."


By bafflegab, do you mean lies?


----------



## Macfury

No. I meant the statement was not an out-and-out lie. I believe he was stalling and did not answer the question definitively.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Apologists beware.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> No. I meant the statement was not an out-and-out lie. I believe he was stalling and did not answer the question definitively.


Nope MF, the Prime Minister out-and-out lied twice in the clip. He quite definitely said there was a contract in place that protected Canada from any spiralling costs and said that his government was confident of their cost estimates of the time, when the auditor general has now shown they knew were bogus back in 2010. They knew the program would cost $10 Billion more than they were saying.

Harper lied. His government lied. His ministers lied. To Parliament, to the public, on multiple occasions.

Mulcair said in Parliament that the Harper government was either lying or incompetent. They were and are both.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Agreed. We have a very dangerous govt in a majority for 3 more years. We need to fight hard to preserve CANADA.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Mulcair said in Parliament that the Harper government was either lying or incompetent. They were and are both.


Incompetent in this matter.


----------



## groovetube

hilarious.


----------



## eMacMan

Was reading Helicopter MacKays explanation. Interestingly none of the extra $10 Billion$ are referenced. Instead he has tossed out another $10 Billion$ related to keeping the F 18s going the extra years to compensate for the 35s being so far behind schedule. 

So it would appear that the real costs were under guessed by at least $20 Billion$. But of course the defense minister was far too busy hitching a ride on S & R helicopters to bother informing Parliament or the Canadian public. Gotta love the smoke and mirrors. 

Mind you the $35 Billion$ number is almost certainly still way below the final cost.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Was reading Helicopter MacKays explanation. Interestingly none of the extra $10 Billion$ are referenced. Instead he has tossed out another $10 Billion$ related to keeping the F 18s going the extra years to compensate for the 35s being so far behind schedule.
> 
> So it would appear that the real costs were under guessed by at least $20 Billion$. But of course the defense minister was far too busy hitching a ride on S & R helicopters to bother informing Parliament or the Canadian public. Gotta love the smoke and mirrors.
> 
> Mind you the $35 Billion$ number is almost certainly still way below the final cost.


Money well spent, eMacMan. His R&D ride from rural NL was for a good purpose -- it was for an important photo op. 

So, stop griping and get to work earning tax dollars to pay for these perks. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

they know there's a pile of drooling supporters rear end up who'll buy it.

Wy do they lie? Because they know people will just swallow it.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Money well spent, eMacMan. His R&D ride from rural NL was for a good purpose -- it was for an important photo op.
> 
> So, stop griping and get to work earning tax dollars to pay for these perks.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


One of the reasons I retired early. I'll let you working stiffs pay for the Yellow Submarine that will allow the chopper to be returned to its intended duty. Hopefully before any more native boys are left out on the ice pack to freeze to death.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## jimbotelecom

Can't wait for HARPER to get into a pressure suit and land a CF-35 (prototype) on our aircraft carrier (hee haw) and cozy up to a mike to BS everyone with bafflegab while in the background the banner reads "Missionary Accomplished". 

Hail the chief!


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Oops!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Some rescue.


----------



## CubaMark

*F-35s: It's Not that They are Expensive. It's that They are Useless.*



> "Peter MacKay is enthused about the jets. Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets are exciting new toys. They are so exciting that our government did not hold an open contracting process. We only wanted these planes. They can take off and land on aircraft carriers. They have stealth coating. They can engage in air-to-air combat and rely on mid-air re-fueling...We don't have aircraft carriers. We have no plausible security scenario in which air-to-air combat is anticipated. (The Battle of Britain was a long time ago.) And stealth coating? Are we planning a surprise invasion?
> 
> True, our aging CF-18s need to be replaced. Our large geography has always led to a priority choice for two-engine planes, so if a plane is in a remote spot and loses an engine, the pilot can get to a safe place to land. The F-35s are single engine planes. Asked what will happen if the engine fails, Peter MacKay replied 'it won't.' We need planes for search and rescue. The F-35 is not appropriate for search and rescue."


(HuffingtonPost)


----------



## groovetube

this entire thing is a total comedy of errors. The latest McKay thing is just beyond belief.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Incompetent in this matter.


While supporters of the Harper government understandably would like to downplay this little matter of the F35 lies and bungling, this goes beyond just this issue.

Despite much evidence to the contrary the Harper gov has in the past somehow managed to make a significant number of people believe they are competent managers of government finances. In the case of the F35 it's hard to imagine that any government could have screwed something up quite so badly. The "competent managers" knew that their pet project was going to cost $10 Billion more than they claimed prior to the last election and it didn't seem to be something that concerned them in the least. 

Their stonewalling on the issue and the fact that they were only forced to admit the truth because we happen to have an Auditor General, shows that they are not just incompetent on this issue. It appears to be part of their DNA to screw up, hope nobody notices, lie, deny & stonewall, only accepting the truth when absolutely forced to. Even then, they will continue to parse all their past pronouncements to vainly attempt to make it appear that white was black and black was white.

I think this, and the yet to be resolved robocall issue are going to seriously haunt them when they attempt to get Canadians to believe them about anything in the future. Their credibility on many fronts has been decimated. They are now widely seen as liars and bunglers.


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> While supporters of the Harper government understandably would like to downplay this little matter of the F35 lies and bungling, this goes beyond just this issue.
> 
> Despite much evidence to the contrary the Harper gov has in the past somehow managed to make a significant number of people believe they are competent managers of government finances. In the case of the F35 it's hard to imagine that any government could have screwed something up quite so badly. The "competent managers" knew that their pet project was going to cost $10 Billion more than they claimed prior to the last election and it didn't seem to be something that concerned them in the least.
> 
> Their stonewalling on the issue and the fact that they were only forced to admit the truth because we happen to have an Auditor General, shows that they are not just incompetent on this issue. It appears to be part of their DNA to screw up, hope nobody notices, lie, deny & stonewall, only accepting the truth when absolutely forced to. Even then, they will continue to parse all their past pronouncements to vainly attempt to make it appear that white was black and black was white.
> 
> I think this, and the yet to be resolved robocall issue are going to seriously haunt them when they attempt to get Canadians to believe them about anything in the future. Their credibility on many fronts has been decimated. They are now widely seen as liars and bunglers.


Amazing how no one is now talking about the implications of the robocalls these days. 

GA, I think that you hit the proverbial nail on the head with your comment about "credibility". I actually voted for the Conservatives with Harper as their leader in that we had an honest PC running as the MP here in St.John's East, and I wanted to believe that Harper could bring about a more honorable way of doing the business of running the country. I was truly disappointed.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## MLeh

When you buy a car, what do you figure as the cost? Just the cost of the car (capital cost)? Or the capital cost plus the cost the maintenance, gas, and (personal) driver?

Just askin'. Because that's what they're claiming is the difference. Capital cost versus capital cost plus operating/maintenance (or 'lifetime') costs.

With very few exceptions, the government agencies I deal with are concerned with immediate 'capital cost' - ie the initial cost of the equipment, and 'lifetime operating costs' are passed onto a different department and different accounting procedures (which is why people who sell cheap crappy equipment get orders when the purchaser would actually be better off spending a bit more initially and saving money over the long term. But I digress...) So I can actually see the difference in the figures, but ... wouldn't it have just been easier to clarify 'capital cost' a long time ago instead of just pretending that we're all idiots?

Although I am looking sideways at the Conservatives myself right now (they are a bit too disingenuous for my liking and a bit too paternalistic for my feminist heart). And I am definitely fiscally conservative. Time to bring Preston back?

I wonder if they really want to be a one term government? It's a shame, really. There was so much promise, and now it's down to egos and human frailty and greed rather than 'what's best for the country'. There's still time to clarify the situation, but not with more dissembling.


----------



## Macfury

MLeh said:


> When you buy a car, what do you figure as the cost? Just the cost of the car (capital cost)? Or the capital cost plus the cost the maintenance, gas, and (personal) driver?


I explained it this way to someone today. The PBO numbers included runway maintenance and fencing, for example. Ridiculous.


----------



## dstanic

MLeh said:


> Although I am looking sideways at the Conservatives myself right now (they are a bit too disingenuous for my liking and a bit too paternalistic for my feminist heart). And I am definitely fiscally conservative. Time to bring Preston back?
> 
> I wonder if they really want to be a one term government? It's a shame, really. There was so much promise, and now it's down to egos and human frailty and greed rather than 'what's best for the country'. There's still time to clarify the situation, but not with more dissembling.


I feel exactly the same way MLeh. They seemed like the party that was strong and true to vote for (and I guess compared to Ignatieff's Liberals and the NPD you could still argue it correct) but they seem to be _needlessly_ hiding more and more with their little agendas. While I'm pretty sure they'll get voted in again next time (minority or majority is another matter) it is not out of the realm of possibility for the LIberals to pull a good leader out of their hat (ie. NOT a joker such as Stephan Dion or Ignatieff) and pull off a victory, if the conservatives do more in the next 3 years to **** everybody off.


----------



## groovetube

It was very clearly mentioned as -all- the costs, when the other parties and the PBO said this was going to cost far, far more. That, was the point. The cons made it sound as though that their numbers, was -the- cost, period. It's simply not the case.

The squirming by McKay now, is really just showcasing their total lack of credibility on this now.


----------



## MacDoc

Like that is new 

fishing trips anyone...XX)


----------



## Ottawaman

> *Andrew Coyne: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up*
> 
> Monday, Apr. 9, 2012
> 
> ‘The costs of an asset are the costs of the asset, not just the increment over what some other asset would cost’
> 
> For its part, the government did as little as possible to dispel that impression. Defence department statements at the time make no mention of maintenance or operating costs, but only the $9-billion cost of acquisition. The first acknowledgment of any additional costs I can find is the Oct. 19, 2010, appearance by the Assistant Deputy Minister of Defence (Materiel), Dan Ross, before the Commons Defence committee, in which he refers vaguely to “sustaining” costs of $250- to $300-million per year.
> 
> Multiply $250- to $300-million a year times 20 years and it works out to the $5.7-billion (slightly less than the $6.9-billion in the Globe story) that later appeared in the Defence department’s response to the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s report. Again, the government did not contradict this figure, either then or through the election campaign that followed.
> 
> But if the government could rely on public ignorance to sustain a misleading impression then, it cannot do so now. I refer to MacKay’s attempts to suggest that the Auditor-General’s insistence that all operating costs should be included in the total is some kind of new or persnickety standard that has suddenly been thrust upon his department. “This is the way that accounting has been always been done for major procurements,” he told his Question Period interviewer. “We do not calculate as part of the acquisitions costs what we pay military personnel. Or the fuel. Or the cost of keeping that existing equipment running.”
> 
> That may be true: It certainly fits with what we know of Defence’s tendency to lowball cost estimates. But it is directly contrary to longstanding Treasury Board directives, which stress throughout that the costs of any acquisition must include “all relevant costs over the useful life of the acquisition, not solely the initial or basic contractual cost” (Contracting Policy, 2006). Among the costs deemed “relevant” are those related to “planning, acquisition, operating and disposal,” including forecast “modifications, conversions, repairs, and replacement.”
> 
> Specifically, an “acquisition decision that is based on the lowest purchase price but that ignores potential operations and maintenance (O&M) costs may result in higher overall costs,” it notes in Guide to Management of Materiel. Among the suggested considerations, in assessing operations costs: “Are all training costs included? Are the costs of fuel and lubricants included? Are all repair costs included?”
> 
> So MacKay’s claim that some costs can be left out of the total, whether because “that’s the way it’s always been done” or because these are costs “we’re paying right now,” i.e. on the upkeep of the existing fleet of CF-18s, is simply untenable. The costs of an asset are the costs of the asset, not just the increment over what some other asset would cost. It is interesting to know, when buying a car, how much it would cost to buy some other car, but in the end the car still costs what it costs.
> 
> ‘For its part, the government did as little as possible to dispel that impression’
> 
> Indeed, an indication that the government knew this argument was bogus is that it included the operating costs it omitted from the public figures in its own internal estimates. As long ago as 2008, according to the Auditor-General, the government was budgeting $9-billion for acquisition costs on the project, plus $16-billion for operations, for a total of $25-billion.
> 
> Yet even these figures are vastly understated. The life-cycle costs of an asset are those it incurs over the whole of its useful life. Yet Defence’s figures are based on an arbitrary 20-year interval, not on the F-35’s actual projected life. The Parliamentary Budget Officer assesses this at 30 years, while the Auditor-General prefers 36 years. Take the midpoint between the two. Prorate the department’s estimate of operating costs over 33 years rather than 20, and you get a figure of, not $16-billion, but at least $26-billion. Add in acquisition costs of at least $9-billion (and probably more like $10- or $11-billion — but that’s another story), plus the two- or three-billion more the Auditor-General says should be included for attrition, upgrades and the like, and you’re looking at a total cost, all in, of something closer to $40-billion.
> 
> Not $9-billion. Not $15- or $16-billion. Not $25-billion. Forty-billion dollars. So far.


Andrew Coyne: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up


----------



## Dr.G.

Ottawaman said:


> Andrew Coyne: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up


An interesting take on this issue, O-man. Andrew Coyne is a respected journalist who is open-minded and fair. I have seen him take various sides on various issues, so, he is not a supporter of any one party or ideology.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

In order to have the badge of good economic stewards, they need to show they can live up to this. So far, I haven't seen a convincing arguement that this government deserves it. And this, is a very clear example why, they shouldn't have it.

If I were to run my household finances the way they do, we'd be in serious trouble.

It's as if a business buys an expensive fleet of cars, without regard to it's suitability for it's job, and without any research or regard to what the costs of maintaining the fleet to the business over it's time of service. 

And conservatives like to use the analogy of running things like a business don't they...


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> In order to have the badge of good economic stewards, they need to show they can live up to this. So far, I haven't seen a convincing arguement that this government deserves it. And this, is a very clear example why, they shouldn't have it.
> 
> If I were to run my household finances the way they do, we'd be in serious trouble.
> 
> It's as if a business buys an expensive fleet of cars, without regard to it's suitability for it's job, and without any research or regard to what the costs of maintaining the fleet to the business over it's time of service.
> 
> And conservatives like to use the analogy of running things like a business don't they...


Valid points, gt. I especially liked your contention that "In order to have the badge of good economic stewards, they need to show they can live up to this. So far, I haven't seen a convincing arguement that this government deserves it." Very true.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Gen. Natynczyk says F-35 still best jet for air force - Canada - CBC News


----------



## Dr.G.

Canadians OK with higher taxes to fight inequality - Politics - CBC News

An interesting study. Now, this would be a wise use of tax dollars in my opinion.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Dr.G. said:


> Canadians OK with higher taxes to fight inequality - Politics - CBC News
> 
> An interesting study. Now, this would be a wise use of tax dollars in my opinion.


This presents a serious dilemma for Stephen Harper. 

On one hand a majority of Canadians support our social programs and even among some Conservative voters are willing to pay more to keep them viable. And very large majorities support higher corporate taxes and higher taxes on the very wealthy. That's a lot of voters.

On the other hand large corps and most of the 1% do not support this in any way, shape or form.

Just kidding, no dilemma. Harper will give the 1% what it wants every time, Canadian voters be damned.


----------



## groovetube

What are the conservatives going to do when the big tax cut swindle they pulled for years no longer works on people?


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Gen. Natynczyk says F-35 still best jet for air force - Canada - CBC News


Even if it was the best jet, although many disagree with the General and his is only one opinion, do we need a Porsche roadster when good solid minivan might do everything we need it to and cost far less. I understand those who like their toys would want the Porsche, but I think we have better things to spend many billions on than keeping those types happy.

Nor if it was the best jet, does this excuse the Prime Minister and his government lying to us about the real cost.


----------



## MLeh

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> This presents a serious dilemma for Stephen Harper.
> 
> On one hand a majority of Canadians support our social programs and even among some Conservative voters are willing to pay more to keep them viable. And very large majorities support higher corporate taxes and higher taxes on the very wealthy. That's a lot of voters.
> 
> On the other hand large corps and most of the 1% do not support this in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Just kidding, no dilemma. Harper will give the 1% what it wants every time, Canadian voters be damned.


Most people are in favour of higher taxes as long as it is someone else paying them ....


----------



## SINC

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Even if it was the best jet, although many disagree with the General and his is only one opinion, do we need a Porsche roadster when good solid minivan might do everything we need it to and cost far less. I understand those who like their toys would want the Porsche, but I think we have better things to spend many billions on than keeping those types happy.
> 
> Nor if it was the best jet, does this excuse the Prime Minister and his government lying to us about the real cost.


There is one thing I know for sure and that is I am no military expert. One would think the top man in Canada's military would set politics and cost aside and simply recommend the best tool for the job. I am betting that is exactly what the general has done, so I have to trust his opinion. 

As Bryanc would tell me, I have no knowledge to not trust climate change scientists who have deeper knowledge of the situation than I, therefore I should trust the science. I see this as no different.


----------



## groovetube

The top police chiefs said the long gun registry was invaluable.


----------



## SINC

I lived and worked with, was an instructor in gun safety and know all I need to support the killing of the registry. Police chiefs or no police chiefs whose political interference was just that, a political ploy. Try asking a cop on the beat and you will get an entirely different answer. Besides, it dead and done, no further debate required. Nice troll try though.


----------



## groovetube

that wasn't a troll reply. It was merely an example. I wouldn't believe that knowledge of gun safety gives one the knowledge on the long gun registry. So top military brass don't get involved with politics either? 

You're quick to simply accept what this general says, but I don't agree with your reasoning.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> ...Police chiefs or no police chiefs whose political interference was just that, a political ploy. Try asking a cop on the beat and you will get an entirely different answer. Besides, it dead and done, no further debate required. Nice troll try though.


Trolling or no, he has a point, SINC. You're picking and choosing which authorities to believe. A country-wide association of Police Chiefs, who one might expect to have a wide range of opinions on a given matter, backed the Registry. In this case, a single military chief wants the F-35 (no doubt there are more). It would be interesting to know (a) whether the General need worry about his job were he to oppose the F35, and (b) what the pilots - all of 'em, and candidly - would say about the F35 vs, say, the Super Hornet.

I continue to be surprised that an aircraft with such apparent mismatched capabilities for Canada's needs is seen as the right choice. As one of the cited authors above noted, it's exactly the right plane to support U.S. wars and interventions in the Middle East and other so-called "trouble spots". Making the case for the F35 and Canada's priorities is not so easy.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

MLeh said:


> Most people are in favour of higher taxes as long as it is someone else paying them ....


According to the survey results the majority of Canadians from all income brackets were willing to pay more themselves to keep social programs viable.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> According to the survey results the majority of Canadians from all income brackets were willing to pay more themselves to keep social programs viable.


They were asked about "slightly more" if that amount made the programs viable--a fantasy from the start


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> They were asked about "slightly more" if that amount made the programs viable--a fantasy from the start


Well it will remain a fantasy as long as the Harper government is willing to waste billions on boondoggles such as the F35s or their fantasy crime wave.


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Well it will remain a fantasy as long as the Harper government is willing to waste billions on boondoggles such as the F35s or their fantasy crime wave.


I would target corporate cash, but yes, many of these unworkable social programs would be easily affordable if the federal government reigned in its spending.


----------



## Dr.G.

"The one-hour TV news program Connect with Mark Kelley, the radio show Dispatches and drama programming on Radio One will be eliminated as part of cost-cutting measures to CBC English Services to cope with planned budget cuts, the public broadcaster announced Tuesday." Sad to see these two shows being cut. I listened to Dispatches when it was on and I was in the house, and I watched Connect regularly. I really like Mark Kelley.


----------



## mrjimmy

Yes I know who commissioned the poll...

That doesn't change the fact that they're the most hopeful results I've heard in a long time.

Canadians open to tax hikes to create more equal society, poll finds - The Globe and Mail

MF, I take it they didn't call you? 

(whoops, I see this has already been covered. Mea culpa.)


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Yes I know who commissioned the poll...
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that they're the most hopeful results I've heard in a long time.
> 
> Canadians open to tax hikes to create more equal society, poll finds - The Globe and Mail
> 
> MF, I take it they didn't call you?
> 
> (whoops, I see this has already been covered. Mea culpa.)


I would certainly be willing to have my tax dollars go for these sorts of causes. Social equality = yes .................. F-35s = no. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Social equality is a really vague Trudeau type term. So probably not.

OTOH if we are talking about maintaining OAS and Medicare. Then Yes.

Talking about building a bunch of privately run jails, to be filled by those committing made up crimes, so that King Harpo can funnel even more money to his corporate pals. Absolutely not.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Social equality is a really vague Trudeau type term. So probably not.
> 
> OTOH if we are talking about maintaining OAS and Medicare. Then Yes.
> 
> Talking about building a bunch of privately run jails, to be filled by those committing made up crimes, so that King Harpo can funnel even more money to his corporate pals. Absolutely not.


I think that this was part of the study, eMacMan. Not that all people will be financially equal, but the inequality that prevents some people from accessing basic care (e.g., medical care, food, shelter, clothing, etc) would be the direction that our tax dollars would flow. I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. I hate to see tax dollars wasted, and would rather see these dollars flow to people to help them attain a level od dignity. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Food-safety workers among hardest-hit by Harper budget cuts - The Globe and Mail

priorities. I know we may hear a couple point out that perhaps, not all the affected ones will be cut, but this, is distressing news.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> According to the survey results the majority of Canadians from all income brackets were willing to pay more themselves to keep social programs viable.


No one asked me...


----------



## groovetube

Drug injection sites urged for Ottawa, Toronto - Ottawa - CBC News

yeah, thanks for your research and facts, but since our government is ideologically opposed to any solutions we don't like no matter how many lives it could save, stuff it.

Stephen Harper, here for Canad(a)ian Corporations.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> No one asked me...


And what would you say if they had?


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper, here for Canad(a)ian Corporations.


I don't think that's fair. Harper is doing a good job of looking out for the interests of American corporations, Chinese corporations, and big corporations from all over the globe.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I don't think that's fair. Harper is doing a good job of looking out for the interests of American corporations, Chinese corporations, and big corporations from all over the globe.


Indeed. Though we don't want any of that foreign money or interests influencing policy decisions or projects.


----------



## Ottawaman

*Government cutting 100 food-safety inspectors*



> the food-inspection agency will be cutting 308 employees as a result of the cuts announced in the Conservative government's budget, unveiled last month.
> 
> This includes veterinarians, who are in charge of inspecting and certifying animals and meat products, as well as members of the agency's scientific and analytic group.
> 
> Kingston said the agency is emphasizing that about half of the positions to be cut are from the workforce in Ottawa and will have little impact on food safety. But Kingston said he doesn't buy it, adding the work done by many of them has a direct impact on the safety of food purchased by Canadians.
> 
> For example, he cited the Ottawa-based unit responsible for approving meat product labels, which will be dismantled in favour of "downstream enforcement" involving inspectors catching fraudulent claims when products hit stores shelves.
> 
> "After these cuts, Canadians can expect more fraudulent meat labels like we have seen for other products because CFIA pre-approval of meat product labels will be eliminated," Kingston said.


Government cutting 100 food-safety inspectors


This seems like a foolish move. Canada has a recent history of serious illness and death from tainted food


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> And what would you say if they had?


I'd say, "I live in Quebec. I already pay too much GD tax that is misused and to think that paying more taxes will bring about social equality is a pipe dream without foundation in history or in reality unless lowering everyone's standard of living is considered equality".


----------



## MacDoc

Oh !!?? - perhaps you should consider Sweden Denmark and Norway before you make such ill-founded broad statements.

It's not how much tax you pay - it's what you get for it. 
It could be over priced politicians and expensive jets and a bloated military in some countries - or better more cost effective services in others.

It all depends on management. In some areas ( childcare/ hydro power ) Quebec leads - in others it's a mismanaged mess.


----------



## groovetube

In some countries, they've trained their citizens to believe that spending on money on it's citizen is too costly.

Unlike Jets, jails, and gazebos.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Oh !!?? - perhaps you should consider Sweden Denmark and Norway before you make such ill-founded broad statements.


25% VAT anyone? 

These three represent pretty much the highest tax rates in the world. If you live in a dependent culture and like other people ot see to your needs, this will seem like paradise. If you like to make your own decisions and express your individual choices... not so much. The "success" of these countries is also based on a heavily rigged scale that favours socialist solutions--e.g., measures success by whether or not the government pays for health care or daytime baby sitting.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Oh !!?? - perhaps you should consider Sweden Denmark and Norway before you make such ill-founded broad statements.
> 
> *It's not how much tax you pay - it's what you get for it. *
> It could be over priced politicians and expensive jets and a bloated military in some countries - or better more cost effective services in others.
> 
> It all depends on management. In some areas ( childcare/ hydro power ) Quebec leads - in others it's a mismanaged mess.


3 TINY countries and you are going to begin to compare... get real... 

EXACTLY and I get next to NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!

Please don't even try to begin to tell me what it is like living in Quebec since I have lived here most of my youth/adolescence/adulthood/as a minority... Don't even get me started... childcare and hydro are 2 good things out of hundreds, probably thousands of things to consider.

I can't even believe you would have the audacity to try and tell me the benefits and pitfalls of living in Quebec! Have you EVER lived here and if so when and for how long?!!

Just keep enjoying your southern sun...


----------



## CubaMark

*Man, the Conservatives really do epitomize pettiness, don't they?*

*Conservatives won't hold formal event to mark Constitution's 30th birthday*












> The Harper government says it will mark the 30th anniversary of the patriation of the Constitution – by issuing a couple of news releases.





> The Tory approach differs greatly from Liberal Party plans to celebrate with a rally in Toronto that will feature former prime minister Jean Chrétien.
> 
> The Constitution was patriated on April 17, 1982 following a long campaign by then-Liberal prime minister Pierre Trudeau. It is the backbone of Canada's governing system and its framework for legal rights.
> 
> The Conservatives have recently made big investments to commemorate other anniversaries of historical significance, including the bicentennial of the War of 1812.





> [Heritage Minister] Mr. Moore was asked Thursday where he thinks the Constitution ranks in terms of importance compared to the War of 1812.
> 
> _“[They're] all important in their own ways,..."_


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## groovetube

the con henchmen out in full force to defend the gluttony of spending. Trained indeed!


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> *Man, the Conservatives really do epitomize pettiness, don't they?*
> 
> *Conservatives won't hold formal event to mark Constitution's 30th birthday*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


They couldn't figure out how to convince everyone it was their good deeds that resulted in the constitution, like they did with the economy. So they'll ignore it.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Man, the Conservatives really do epitomize *pettiness*, don't they?[/B]
> 
> *Conservatives won’t hold formal event to mark Constitution's 30th birthday*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


Seems it is catching... 30 years? I mean really. No political motivation on Chretien's part there.

Wait until 50 at least...  Before you spend money on some hoopla.... Cripes and if they did they would be chastised on wasting the money.... damned if you do and damned if you don't...


----------



## groovetube

nearly 30 million to mark the war of 1812?

hmm.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Seems it is catching... 30 years? I mean really. No political motivation on Chretien's part there.
> 
> Wait until 50 at least...  Before you spend money on some hoopla.... Cripes and if they did they would be chastised on wasting the money.... damned if you do and damned if you don't...


Agreed. 25 and 50--maybe. In terms of historical importance, the War of 1812 bicentennial trumps it to hell.


----------



## groovetube

So the conservatives marked the 25th anniversary right?


----------



## CubaMark

People Drive to Reach Round-Number Goals: Scientific American Podcast


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> So the conservatives marked the 25th anniversary right?


I hope not.


----------



## groovetube

Please use the argument that we shouldn't spend the money so I can laugh at you. Really hard.


----------



## Ottawaman

> *Government announces funding for War of 1812 bicentennial*
> 
> The Canadian government has announced close to $5 million in funding for 24 projects commemorating this year's bicentennial of the War of 1812, including almost $1 million to help create a series of interactive exhibits at Vancouver's Canada Place to "bring the heroes and stories of the War of 1812 to life" more than 3,000 kilometres west of the conflict's most famous battlegrounds in southern Ontario.





> The government's ambitious, $28-million blueprint to mark the war's bicentennial was unveiled in October, when Moore first announced plans for a new national War of 1812 monument in the Ottawa area, investments to preserve or upgrade a half-dozen historic forts associated with the conflict, and to support a series of battle re-enactments aimed at drawing tourists to areas where the war was fought.
> 
> The government has also announced War of 1812 commemorative coins and stamps, educational programs and a major new travelling exhibit on the conflict by the Canadian War Museum.


Government announces funding for War of 1812 bicentennial

How do they decide which events merit the money?


----------



## groovetube

Yup. Right about the time they proudly saved 27 million axing the party subsidies, while lying to us that people had to pay a couple bucks to support someone they didn't vote for.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> Government announces funding for War of 1812 bicentennial
> 
> How do they decide which events merit the money?



One is really important, and the other isn't.


----------



## groovetube

Priceless. I love the squirming. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Priceless. I love the squirming. :lmao:


Are you squirming?


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> Government announces funding for War of 1812 bicentennial
> 
> How do they decide which events merit the money?


How would you decide?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> How would you decide?


Expect a deafening silence.


----------



## Ottawaman

I would expect that they should mark both. My question was rhetorical as I suspect the determining factor is most likely that they do not wish to mark an event that the LPC was largely heralded for.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> I would expect that they should mark both. My question was rhetorical as I suspect the determining factor is most likely that they do not wish to mark an event that the LPC was largely heralded for.


You're talking over their heads now. But it's funny to watch.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> I would expect that they should mark both. My question was rhetorical as I suspect the determining factor is most likely that they do not wish to mark an event that the LPC was largely heralded for.


It's not like the U.S. constitution or anything dramatic. Just some bureaucratic shuffling. I barely noticed it as it was happening.


----------



## groovetube

oh I don't think anyone expected you to notice! :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...olice-powers-to-wiretap-without-warrants?bn=1

Some good news for civil liberties.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Canada News: Canada?s top court strikes down police powers to wiretap without warrants - thestar.com
> 
> Some good news for civil liberties.


Excellent news. Unfortunately, our legal system can't keep Harper's fascists at bay indefinitely. We need to elect a new government at the earliest opportunity.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Excellent news. Unfortunately, our legal system can't keep Harper's fascists at bay indefinitely. We need to elect a new government at the earliest opportunity.


What makes them fascists? For a scientist, you're very free with adapting words to your own definitions.

However, I'm pleased with the results of the court ruling.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> What makes them fascists?* For a scientist, you're very free with adapting words to your own definitions.
> *
> However, I'm pleased with the results of the court ruling.


No kidding! Also the section that was shot down was not even introduced by the Harper Government.


----------



## MLeh

I would have thought the wire tapping legislation would have been introduced in 2001/2002 after the 9/11 thing (and resultant legislated responses which trampled a lot of civil liberties), but apparently it's been around since 1993.


----------



## groovetube

MLeh said:


> I would have thought the wire tapping legislation would have been introduced in 2001/2002 after the 9/11 thing (and resultant legislated responses which trampled a lot of civil liberties), but apparently it's been around since 1993.


I didn't know it was around since 1993. If it was, it wouldn't somehow surprise me though.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> What makes them fascists? For a scientist, you're very free with adapting words to your own definitions.
> 
> *However, I'm pleased with the results of the court ruling.*


Why you got someone locked up in your basement and making ransom calls on a cell phone is just too insecure?


----------



## CubaMark

And now, another instalment of.... the party of sound fiscal management!

*Harper's Baseball Trip Hit Taxpayers With $45,000 Tab*



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Labour Day-weekend trip to Manhattan last fall, which included coveted tickets to a New York Yankees game and a Broadway show, cost Canadian taxpayers at least $45,000, documents reveal.
> 
> 
> Documents obtained under Access to Information reveal only some of the trip's cost. They include $34,633 for the use of the Challenger Jet and another $11,026 for the expenses of four staffers who joined the prime minister during the private family trip.
> 
> 
> However, government officials have declined to provide CBC News with other costs linked to the trip last September, such as expenses incurred by the prime minister, two more aides and a defence attaché who took part in the three-day excursion.


(HuffingtonPost)


----------



## Macfury

It's pretty hilarious. No matter which source I attempted to find to give me some more information, the first 100 contained the identical phrasing. Nice investigative journalism.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> And now, another instalment of.... the party of sound fiscal management!
> 
> *Harper's Baseball Trip Hit Taxpayers With $45,000 Tab*
> 
> 
> 
> (HuffingtonPost)


But he got to see a Yankee game wearing a Blue Jays cap. That is no small feat in NYC at Yankee Stadium. Money well spent if you ask me.


----------



## Macfury

But even the one article says:



> A spokesperson for the prime minister told CBC News that Harper covered the cost of both the flight and accommodations for himself, his daughter and two guests on the flight. He also covered the costs of tickets to the game for himself and his guests.


----------



## Ottawaman

Macfury said:


> But even the one article says:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> A spokesperson for the prime minister told CBC News that Harper covered the cost of both the flight and accommodations for himself, his daughter and two guests on the flight. He also covered the costs of tickets to the game for himself and his guests.


If you look further into this Harper reimburses his flight at the rate that it would cost an average citizen to fly on a commercial flight.
Not the same as a private jet by any means. 

The optics on this are poor at a time that he is slashing Border Guards, Food inspectors and Scientists.


----------



## Macfury

Honestly, I think the position should have some perqs. I don't expect the PM to go economy class on vacations. Just loomk south of the border for some wretched excess on the public's dime. This seems pretty mild to me.

How do people here suppose such things should be handled? A limited budget? No budget?


----------



## Ottawaman

It's about leadership. He's squandering a regular Canadian's yearly salary on an outing. It doesn't scream restraint or austerity to me. Austerity for others it would seem.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> It's about leadership. He's squandering a regular Canadian's yearly salary on an outing. It doesn't scream restraint or austerity to me. Austerity for others it would seem.


I don't expect the PM of a G7 country to live in absolute austerity, but his overall personal spending doesn't seem audacious to me.

I recall Premiere Bob Rae taking a helicopter to his cottage while he was firing civil servants, but people were relatively quiet over that one.


----------



## Ottawaman

You're right. he's had a hard week, cutting 19,000 Canadian's jobs. He needs to kick back and enjoy Canada's favourite national sport in Canada's best city.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> You're right. he's had a hard week, cutting 19,000 Canadian's jobs. He needs to kick back and enjoy Canada's favourite national sport in Canada's best city.


I think that cutting those jobs is hard work--and necessary. However, the trip was months ago and didn't coincide with the lay-offs, so the optics are only bad because the CBC intended them to be. They were probably saving this one for just such an emergency.


----------



## Ottawaman

Well, of course you feel that way, you're Macfury. I would expect nothing less. 
I still say that spending 45k+ on an indulgence during a "fragile economic time" somewhere other than in Canada is poor optics.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> Well, of course you feel that way, you're Macfury. I would expect nothing less.
> I still say that spending 45k+ on an indulgence during a "fragile economic time" somewhere other than in Canada is poor optics.


I haven't been hard on any PM I recall for taking a trip.

I'm just not sure it's out of keeping with the position. In the U.S., all such travel and events appear to be on the public dime. I don't think the PM's trip represents some sort of voracious appetite for expensive travel.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> Well, of course you feel that way, you're Macfury. I would expect nothing less.
> I still say that spending 45k+ on an indulgence during a "fragile economic time" somewhere other than in Canada is poor optics.


ah the furious banter. It's quieter now 

This is a concept just not on some hard right's minds. The good economic stewardship can be granted as long as you whisper sweet 'tax cut' nothings in your supporters ears, and then it's blow the barrels of cash open and just make up a bunch of patriotic numbskull nonsense to sell it.

Rinse and repeat.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*HARPER & CONS - More military boondoggleing*

The other military boondoggle

These clods deserve a serious kick in the behind.

"Brought to you by JNN - purveyor of countless CON misdeeds since 2011"


----------



## bryanc

jimbotelecom said:


> *Another typical* military boondoggle


T,FTFY. I can't think of any examples of significant military spending that does not deserve the term 'boondoggle.'


----------



## jimbotelecom

bryanc said:


> T,FTFY. I can't think of any examples of significant military spending that does not deserve the term 'boondoggle.'


I agree bryanc, especially since we have shifted from traditional humanitarian/peacekeeping efforts under HARPER's control, to a much more aggressive military view. The man is pure and utter slime and hopefully he gets the boot in a few year's time.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> The other military boondoggle
> *
> These clods deserve a serious kick in the behind.*
> 
> "Brought to you by JNN - purveyor of countless CON misdeeds since 2011"


What exactly is something that happened in 1986 supposed to have to do with the current administration? There isn't a single MP now who was a sitting member then.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> The other military boondoggle
> 
> These clods deserve a serious kick in the behind.
> 
> "Brought to you by JNN - purveyor of countless CON misdeeds since 2011"


Gotta love, "the drag the discussion into irrelevant areas," maneuver by an apologists.

The military as an organisation is very conservative and todays leaders were under the tutelage of the leaders with the wants and the needs to suggest this boondoggle of the mid 80's. Why should we expect the present leaders to be very different? 

Why mention MP's when the story under discussion is about the military?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Gotta love, "the drag the discussion into irrelevant areas," maneuver by an apologists.
> 
> The military as an organisation is very conservative and todays leaders were under the tutelage of the leaders with the wants and the needs to suggest this boondoggle of the mid 80's. Why should we expect the present leaders to be very different?
> 
> *Why mention MP's when the story under discussion is about the military?*


Because of a certain group referred to as Cabinet that is purportedly to be to blame for such occurrences. So who is responsible DND or their political masters? Make up your mind you can't have it both ways... and those at DND in 1986 are not the same masters as who are making the decisions now... nor the Cabinet under the current administration.

And becuase of the comment "These clods deserve a serious kick in the behind." If jimbo was referring to the military he is doing so in the wrong thread this is the Canadian Political thread not the Military thread, there is a separate thread for that so obviously he was referring to the administration not the military.

I guess you forgot what thread you were reading.

And want to talk about dragging in the irrelevant, talk about a story by a reporter with a bone to pick over a 26 year old story.


----------



## BigDL

It not for me to make up my mind who is at fault. Perhaps the question should be directed at the confused, Our Glorious Leader and his mishap of minions in so many departments.


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^
Owned!


----------



## MacDoc

Time to get the majority in power




> *Liberal-NDP merger would create ‘political stability,’ Chrétien argues*
> JOAN BRYDEN
> OTTAWA— The Canadian Press
> Published Monday, Apr. 16, 2012 5:42PM EDT
> 
> Jean Chrétien is still promoting the idea of Liberals and New Democrats merging into one federal party, despite strong objections to the NDP’s approach to Quebec independence.
> 
> In an interview Monday, the former Liberal prime minister dismissed suggestions that a merger now – when the Liberals have been reduced to a third-party rump and New Democrats are on the rise – would amount to an NDP takeover of his once-mighty party.
> 
> Mr. Chrétien said the shape of a new political entity would not be determined by the number of seats each party holds but by the respective strength of their ideas.
> 
> “In a new party, this [numbers game] does not matter any more. It's intellectual capacity that will make the difference,” he told The Canadian Press.
> 
> On that score, Mr. Chrétien expressed confidence the Liberals would hold their own in any merger negotiations and that their predominantly centrist viewpoint would prevail.
> 
> “I'm sure,” he said categorically. “The result of a situation like that is you would have a new party that would be a centrist party.”
> 
> The historical references of the new party would be iconic Liberals like Sir Wilfrid Laurier, in much the same way that Sir John A. Macdonald is a touchstone for the current Conservative Party, formed in 2003 from a merger of the Progressive Conservatives and Canadian Alliance, Mr. Chrétien said.
> 
> “The minority group in the merger was the party of John A. Macdonald,” he pointed out.
> 
> Mr. Chrétien allowed that “the harsh left-wingers of the NDP might not be very comfortable and the very conservative Liberals might not be very comfortable” with a new centrist party.
> 
> But noting that Canada has had three minority governments since 2004 and describing the current Conservative majority as “very narrow,” he predicted a merger would “create a lot of political stability in the land.”
> 
> Mr. Chrétien vehemently disagrees with the NDP's position that a bare majority referendum vote would be sufficient to kick start negotiations on Quebec secession.
> 
> As prime minister he introduced the Clarity Act, which stipulates that the federal government would only enter into such negotiations following a “clear majority” vote on a clear question.
> 
> He noted Monday that most countries, corporations, private clubs and political parties – including the NDP – require qualified majorities to change their own constitutions or structures.
> 
> “You need two-thirds of the vote in the NDP to change anything in the constitution of the NDP but with one vote you will break Canada?”
> 
> Mr. Chrétien said the NDP position would mean one person who accidentally checked the wrong box on a referendum ballot could decide the fate of the entire country.
> 
> “You don't lose a vote because somebody does not have his glasses, you do not lose a country because of that. ... I find it's flawed logic,” he said.
> 
> Still, Mr. Chrétien shrugged off suggestions that such a fundamental disagreement on such a crucial question could be an insurmountable obstacle to a merger. He predicted the NDP would abandon its position should it ever form government.
> 
> “If you come with promises in your program that make no sense, you will not implement them. Common sense has to prevail in public life.”


Liberal-NDP merger would create ‘political stability,’ Chrétien argues - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Ottawaman

> Nearly a year after the investigation began, the agency is trying to determine why database records provided by the party appear to be missing entries that could help identify who downloaded the phone numbers used to make fraudulent robocalls, according to a source familiar with the probe.
> 
> Investigators also are inquiring about a phone call from Conservative headquarters, made the day before the election, to RackNine, the Edmonton voice-broadcasting company whose servers were used to send out the robocalls.





> But investigators are now combing over access logs for the Conservatives' Constituent Information Management System (CIMS) to determine who downloaded a list of phone numbers for non-Conservative supporters in Guelph.
> 
> They are now certain the list of numbers in Guelph that received the robocalls came directly from CIMS, according to the source. The CIMS data were compared to listings of the outgoing robocalls provided under court order by RackNine and matched perfectly, the source said.
> 
> Investigators Al Mathews and Ronald Lamothe are now trying to determine who had access to a list of voters who previously had been identified as non-Conservatives.
> 
> Non-supporter data are entered into CIMS by volunteers collecting information during neighbourhood canvasses and by phone bank workers contracted by the party.
> 
> CIMS is known for its tight access controls and detailed event logging and retains a digital record of every transaction on the database. Interns and volunteers have been sanctioned when the logs showed they had looked up Prime Minister Stephen Harper's listing, for example.
> 
> The investigators have inquired about CIMS logs for one particular user in the party's headquarters. The logs show blanks between this person's CIMS logon and logoff on the day the Guelph data was accessed, according to the source.
> 
> Also of interest is a call to RackNine made on May 1, the day before the vote, from a number in the Conservative party war room in Ottawa.



Robocalls probe extends to Tory headquarters


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Time to get the majority in power


That's my morning laugh!

Oh I'm up for that Liberal-NDP merger. Bring it on--cause you know, there are more cats and gopher than dogs. Bring on the cat/gopher alliance. So much in common.

Seriously, it's a touching article, with Chretien expressing his heartfelt faith that a Liberal/NDP merger would look exactly like the Liberal Party.


----------



## bryanc

I don't think a merged party (let's call them the Liberal Democrats), would look much like the current liberals. But it would be a great opportunity for the NDP to shake off it's union baggage of the last century, and for the Liberals to re-brand themselves and escape the taint of corruption and scandal that has dogged them for the past couple of elections. Such a party could easily position itself as a centrist "natural governing party" by espousing socially liberal policies combined with rational financial policies (i.e. fundamentally market-driven but constrained by overarching environmental, social and modest economic manipulation policies).

With a good choice of leader, a Liberal Democrat party could wipe the floor with the corporate puppets we currently have as a government.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> With a good choice of leader, a Liberal Democrat party could wipe the floor with the corporate puppets we currently have as a government.


With a decent leader, you could elect loaves of bread to a majority government.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> I don't think a merged party (let's call them the Liberal Democrats), would look much like the current liberals. But it would be a great opportunity for the NDP to shake off it's union baggage of the last century, and for the Liberals to re-brand themselves and escape the taint of corruption and scandal that has dogged them for the past couple of elections. Such a party could easily position itself as a centrist "natural governing party" by espousing socially liberal policies combined with rational financial policies (i.e. fundamentally market-driven but constrained by overarching environmental, social and modest economic manipulation policies).
> 
> With a good choice of leader, a Liberal Democrat party could wipe the floor with the corporate puppets we currently have as a government.


With a good leader and socially liberal but rational financial policies, the Liberals could do exactly that without the NDP.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Seriously, it's a touching article, with Chretien expressing his heartfelt faith that a Liberal/NDP merger would look exactly like the Liberal Party.


Perhaps if they had merged under Chretien when the NDP was at its weakest, they might have looked just like the Liberal party. But there would have been little reason to merge then.

Now? No way would it look just like the Liberal party.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> With a good leader and socially liberal but rational financial policies, the Liberals could do exactly that without the NDP.


I agree. While I would like to see another party replace The Harper Government of Canada, as they want to be called, I am not sure if I would want a Liberal-NDP or NDP-Liberal Party. Maybe it will come about and I would vote for them, but right now, I like my NDP member of Parliament and will continue to vote for him and his party in the next federal election.


----------



## BigDL

Is it the Liberal Party needing money and status that many people are looking towards the ND Party and the Liberal Party to merge? 

The ND Party and the Liberal Party are very different in substance.

The Liberal Party and the Conservative Party act very much alike when in Government. Should they be encouraged to merge? The Liberals that are liberal, should perhaps look in another direction. Think Green!

Why aren't people talking about a merger between the Green Party and the Liberal Party?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Is it the Liberal Party needing money and status that many people are looking towards the ND Party and the Liberal Party to merge?
> 
> The ND Party and the Liberal Party are very different in substance.
> 
> The Liberal Party and the Conservative Party act very much alike when in Government. Should they be encouraged to merge? The Liberals that are liberal, should perhaps look in another direction. Think Green!
> 
> Why aren't people talking about a merger between the Green Party and the Liberal Party?


Because the Green's have one elected MP, no political machine and next to no money.


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> Is it the Liberal Party needing money and status that many people are looking towards the ND Party and the Liberal Party to merge?
> 
> The ND Party and the Liberal Party are very different in substance.
> 
> The Liberal Party and the Conservative Party act very much alike when in Government. Should they be encouraged to merge? The Liberals that are liberal, should perhaps look in another direction. Think Green!
> 
> Why aren't people talking about a merger between the Green Party and the Liberal Party?


As a Green Party member I can confidently say that there is little chance of any amalgamation with any party. Pre-2008/9 the Green's polled in the 10% plus range. With the flattening economy the electorate abandoned the Greens mainly for the NDP. 

What is interesting is the number of red-Tory types that belong to the Greens. The Greens are, believe it or not, internally driven by a fiscally conservative doctrine. It really wouldn't mix well with the NDP or the Liberals. And with Harper about to gut environmental protection laws, there is a strong dislike of the CONS.

I strongly believe that a time of reckoning is coming for **** sapiens' arrogance against the ecosphere.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> I strongly believe that a time of reckoning is coming for **** sapiens' arrogance against the ecosphere.


"Soylent Green is pee-pul....!"


----------



## eMacMan

I think the Liberal Fall went well beyond unbelievably bad selection of Leaders.

Enough Canadians, whatever their beliefs about ManMade Global Warming, realized that the Liberal cure could be far more expensive than advertised. Add to that the cost of the proposed Taxpayer subsidized daycare and the Libs lost whatever claim to fiscal responsibility that they enjoyed during the Chretian era.

Unfortunately those same Canadians failed to recognize King Harpo's desire to embed himself with the US Military Industrial Complex. 

The result has been the same. Money that Canadian Taxpayers do not have is being spent. Thus further mortgaging the future of the younger generations.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> As a Green Party member I can confidently say that there is little chance of any amalgamation with any party. Pre-2008/9 the Green's polled in the 10% plus range. With the flattening economy the electorate abandoned the Greens mainly for the NDP.
> 
> What is interesting is the number of red-Tory types that belong to the Greens. The Greens are, believe it or not, internally driven by a fiscally conservative doctrine. It really wouldn't mix well with the NDP or the Liberals. And with Harper about to gut environmental protection laws, there is a strong dislike of the CONS.
> 
> I strongly believe that a time of reckoning is coming for **** sapiens' arrogance against the ecosphere.


Interesting the message track of Conservatives (especially the Red variant) Governments are fiscally responsible but in truth are not. The message track of the ND Party Governments are not fiscally responsible and in fact are good managers always amazes me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

The Liberals have lived through an internal war for over 30 years now. The progressive wing of the party has been at loggerheads to control the Bay street financial mandarins. Trudeau and Chretien had the Bay street types controlled to a fair degree. Turner and Martin favoured Bay street rule of the party. Iggy was hired by Bay street.

Contrast this with the present CON party where the oil patch and CON elements of Bay street are all for outright rape and pillage of Canada's resources. 

The Libs have a great opportunity to displace Mr. Apps and his ilk. Failure to do so will result in more of the same industrial policy where we are hewers of wood and drawers of water.


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness the "progressives" and their regressive policies have been foiled. We always need to be on watch for this group should it rear its ugly head.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Thank goodness the "progressives" and their regressive policies have been foiled. We always need to be on watch for this group should it rear its ugly head.


Yes, heaven forbid that our economy should be managed sustainably, or with the interests of Canadians, rather than multinational corporations in mind.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Yes, heaven forbid that our economy should be managed sustainably, or with the interests of Canadians, rather than multinational corporations in mind.


No, heaven forbid that it should be managed in the interests of creating a large and privileged bureaucratic class, and establish the doctrine of trickle-up poverty. 

In about 50 years, progressives might have a shot at government, and you may have to eat your words.


----------



## jimbotelecom

bryanc said:


> Yes, heaven forbid that our economy should be managed sustainably, or with the interests of Canadians, rather than multinational corporations in mind.


Precisely. The Ayn Randites need to be managed very carefully. They certainly did a great job in the US. The danger is there are several of them in the Harper govt. None have any real power but beware.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Yes, heaven forbid that our economy should be managed sustainably, or with the interests of Canadians, rather than multinational corporations in mind.


I don't think the concept of having the citizens of Canada's best interests has really dawned on supporters. The playing of the jobs/economy fear card works wonders on them.


----------



## groovetube

Fracking causes earthquakes, studies confirm - Technology & Science - CBC News

I wonder how long this took to figure out. Earthquakes? Flammable drinking water?

Hey! We have some jobs!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I don't think the concept of having the citizens of Canada's best interests has really dawned on supporters. The playing of the jobs/economy fear card works wonders on them.


That's right. We just need to redistribute what's left after economic activity goes elsewhere and there will be plenty for all.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Fracking causes earthquakes, studies confirm - Technology & Science - CBC News
> 
> I wonder how long this took to figure out. Earthquakes? Flammable drinking water?
> 
> Hey! We have some jobs!


Old news. Fracking _may _cause small tremors and as the report suggests, temporarily ceasing fracking activity where such tremors occur until the earth settles will deal with the problem. 

Lucky Ontario--it has almost no oil or gas shale worth mining. As someone recently suggested, Mother Nature must hate Ontario, because the shale stops right at its borders.


----------



## groovetube

Twitpic - Share photos and videos on Twitter

Only in Alberta they say?

Pity.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Twitpic - Share photos and videos on Twitter
> 
> Only in Alberta they say?
> 
> Pity.


No pity. They're also in Quebec:

Controversial Quebec Liberal to remain in race - Canada Votes 2011 - CBC News



> André Forbes, the Manicouagan Liberal who once called First Nations people "featherheads" and lazy, is staying in the election race.


And in British Columbia:



> OTTAWA - New Democratic Party deputy leader Libby Davies is in hot water in her own caucus over controversial comments she made this month at an anti-Israeli protest when she appeared to question the Jewish state's right to exist, while also suggesting that she believes it should face a boycott and sanctions.


However, assertions that such comments could only come from Alberta say much more about the poster's attitude toward people living in other regions of Canada.


----------



## MLeh

It amuses me that people outside of Alberta only choose to post/propogate items that fulfill their 'confirmation bias' potential. Calgary has a Muslim mayor, which is the reality, not the perception.

(Toronto, meanwhile, has Ford ...)


----------



## groovetube

MLeh said:


> It amuses me that people outside of Alberta only choose to post/propogate items that fulfill their 'confirmation bias' potential. Calgary has a Muslim mayor, which is the reality, not the perception.
> 
> (Toronto, meanwhile, has Ford ...)


I was being sarcastic 

We need a sarcasm smilie here.

Oh yes, Toronto does indeed have, ford. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

MLeh said:


> It amuses me that people outside of Alberta only choose to post/propogate items that fulfill their 'confirmation bias' potential. Calgary has a Muslim mayor, which is the reality, not the perception.


I'm really getting tired of Alberta-bashing... and the ultimate cheap fallback position--"It was only a joke."


----------



## MLeh

The best revenge is living well.

(As a bred and born Albertan, I sometimes wonder at the prejudice so openly exhibited towards the West. My mama told me that whenever someone picks on you for no good reason 'they're probably just jealous', so that's what I chalk it up to.)


----------



## chasMac

MLeh said:


> The best revenge is living well.


That we do. Tho trying to square 'living well' with an Alberta winter/spring is something I have never been able to do.


----------



## MLeh

chasMac said:


> That we do. Tho trying to square 'living well' with an Alberta winter/spring is something I have never been able to do.


For many of my Albertan friends coping with an Alberta winter/spring consists of a motorhome in the middle of the Arizona desert.


----------



## chasMac

MLeh said:


> For many of my Albertan friends coping with an Alberta winter/spring consists of a motorhome in the middle of the Arizona desert.


Yep, in a similar vein I've heard the Okanagan described as a Calgary neighbourhood. Plus, in an effort to combat our atrocious winters we in Alberta are doing our best to hot things up a bit (as the rest of the world is fond of reminding us).


----------



## groovetube

MLeh said:


> The best revenge is living well.
> 
> (As a bred and born Albertan, I sometimes wonder at the prejudice so openly exhibited towards the West. My mama told me that whenever someone picks on you for no good reason 'they're probably just jealous', so that's what I chalk it up to.)


we in Toronto certainly get our share. Often deserved. But with a mayor like ford, tossing jabs is certainly throwing stones in a glass house. Unless you actually like the guy that is lol.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I'm actually riveted by what's going on in Alberta. All of my friends who live there mostly in Calgary, Edmonton and Canmore area are scared of the possible outcome of a Wild Rose victory. All of them are talking about voting strategically to block Wild Rose instead of exercising their usual protest vote.

Both of the big city mayors have made statements asking the Wild Rose leader to take a stand on the bigoted statements made by members of her team and it seems WR maybe losing traction. Calgary and Edmonton seats on their own represent a majority of the provincial legislature so it's going to be a very interesting night on Monday.

I'll be heading over to a friends place to watch Calgary and Edmonton CBC feeds as I don't have cable or sat tv.

Alberta might find itself in an urban/rural divide which will make life very spicy for years to come.


----------



## SINC

Poll after poll is showing a very solid Wildrose majority. It would seem to be now a foregone conclusion. Average Albertans are tired of being raped at over $200/month for their power bills, waiting eight hours for stitches in emergency rooms, having the PCs pay themselves a grand a month apiece to sit on a committee that hasn't met in four years, being threatened with a .05 alcohol law that seizes their vehicles in spite of the national .08 law, low royalties allowing oil companies to prosper while the government runs a deficit, overcrowded classrooms, and most of all the sheer arrogance and attitude of entitlement by the elitist PC pack.

As for the strategic voting bunch, they too will fail.

Polls agree on Wildrose strength | News | Battle For Alberta 2012 | Edmonton Sun

As one comment from a poster on my web site put it:

_*Most Albertans want change at any price and they are more than willing to give the Wildrose a chance to fix the issues or hang themselves trying in a four year long experiment. Welcome to the necktie party on April 23 where voters will first hang the 'Kim Campbell of AB', Alison Redford and her same old PC gang. Then if the Wildrose screws up, there'll be another hangin' four years later.*_


----------



## Macfury

I'm certainly looking forward to the election. The Wildrose Party should win a majority, and the Liberals may be wiped off the floor.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Gee I thought I was on your ignore list SINC.

I've read about all your points re. PC abuse of power but man, these statements coming from some of the WR candidates do have a tendency to fan the flames of intolerance, not unlike the former Mayor of Eckville, Jim Keegstra, many moons ago. The WR leader really should put them in their place because it really doesn't reflect well on her party or the province. 

By the way I think Alberta is a very fine place. I'm quite well travelled in this country and I think there are more Canadian flags flying in Alberta than in any other province in the country. The religious wingnuts sure are vocal there though.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> Gee I thought I was on your ignore list SINC.
> 
> I've read about all your points re. PC abuse of power but man, these statements coming from some of the WR candidates do have a tendency to fan the flames of intolerance, not unlike the former Mayor of Eckville, Jim Keegstra, many moons ago. The WR leader really should put them in their place because it really doesn't reflect well on her party or the province.
> 
> By the way I think Alberta is a very fine place. I'm quite well travelled in this country and I think there are more Canadian flags flying in Alberta than in any other province in the country. The religious wingnuts sure are vocal there though.


Two Wildrose wingnuts does not a party make, so Smith lets them ramble. With 85 other credible candidates, no one but the reactionaries are much concerned it would affect party policy. The desire for change is far too strong for that to have a detrimental effect and Smith knows it. She may even be treating it that way to capture voters who favour that kind of thinking to bolster her majority.

As for the ignore button, that disappeared with that tiresome JNN bit.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Poll after poll is showing a very solid Wildrose majority. It would seem to be now a foregone conclusion. Average Albertans are tired of being raped at over $200/month for their power bills, waiting eight hours for stitches in emergency rooms, having the PCs pay themselves a grand a month apiece to sit on a committee that hasn't met in four years, being threatened with a .05 alcohol law that seizes their vehicles in spite of the national .08 law, low royalties allowing oil companies to prosper while the government runs a deficit, overcrowded classrooms, and most of all the sheer arrogance and attitude of entitlement by the elitist PC pack.
> 
> As for the strategic voting bunch, they too will fail.
> 
> Polls agree on Wildrose strength | News | Battle For Alberta 2012 | Edmonton Sun
> 
> As one comment from a poster on my web site put it:
> 
> _*Most Albertans want change at any price and they are more than willing to give the Wildrose a chance to fix the issues or hang themselves trying in a four year long experiment. Welcome to the necktie party on April 23 where voters will first hang the 'Kim Campbell of AB', Alison Redford and her same old PC gang. Then if the Wildrose screws up, there'll be another hangin' four years later.*_


Other than the do nothing committee pay, I really have seen nothing from the WR that would address any of those key issues. Ms Redord of course had ample opportunity and did not. My gut is that Albertans are scr3w3d no matter who wins. 

FWIW Danielle learned her political chops from the same former CIA prof who moulded King Harpo, so I am guessing her commitment to transparency and open votes will not last past the cabinet announcements.

This coming from the prognosticator who warned that BOs "change" would be more of the same, as has indeed proven the case.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Other than the do nothing committee pay, I really have seen nothing from the WR that would address any of those key issues.


Then I suggest you have not been looking hard enough. In addition to a promise to repeal the .05 driving law, see what other commitments the Wildrose have made:

Commitment to Power Consumers « Wildrose - Danielle Smith

Commitment to Parents on Education « Wildrose - Danielle Smith

Commitment to Municipalities « Wildrose - Danielle Smith

Commitment to Taxpayers « Wildrose - Danielle Smith

Commitment to Rural Alberta « Wildrose - Danielle Smith

(I've been through all the party platforms to stay on top of the issues.)


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Then I suggest you have not been looking hard enough. In addition to a promise to repeal the .05 driving law, see what other commitments the Wildrose have made:


The commitments are also very specific--to repeal specific laws--so there can be no doubt about what the government will be measuring its success against.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Commitment to Parents on Education « Wildrose - Danielle Smith


The language in this one looks interesting... I wonder what they mean when they say "WILDROSE will give principals, parent councils and individual schools more choice in selecting curriculum and teaching methods". I hope I'm wrong, but I'm betting we'll be seeing religious indoctrination (like "intelligent design" and "teaching the controversy" about evolution and other established scientific facts like climate change) in Alberta schools.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> ... and other established scientific facts like climate change) in Alberta schools.


I think Alberta schools already agree that the climate changes.


----------



## eMacMan

The Power statement sounds good but really promises no relief. Whether the Power Generators pay for those transmission lines or the utilities, it will still be Alberta consumers paying to install transmission lines which are intended to sell Alberta Energy out of the province. In Alberta Deregulation has been a total disaster and Danielle is at best promising a band aid.

As with King Harpo, Danielle will be starting with a deficit budget. So how does she intend to honour commitments to increase spending and not increase taxes or user fees? For this reason I take some of her other promises with a truckload of salt. However I do believe the Tories time has come. So Albertans will indeed find out first hand out if Danielle will be truer to her commitments than OGL.

On the medical side of things I get the feeling there is an intent to divert money away from the system to selected buddies, under the guise of dealing with problems but without really fixing them. Reading a lot between the lines here and I hope I am proven wrong. OTOH no politician mentored by the same prof as King Harpo is likely to tell things as they are, so ya reads between the lines. Whether my reading is accurate only time can tell.

I think Ms. Redford made a big mistake in not clearly defining legislatively how she would differ from former regimes, before calling the election.


----------



## eMacMan

For those that were wondering how the Harpolites were intending to pay for building and staffing all those new prisons, I think this should answer your questions.



> The federal government will close the maximum-security penitentiary in Kingston, Ont., that opened in 1835 and houses some of Canada's most notorious prisoners, CBC News has learned.
> 
> The CBC's Alison Crawford reported Thursday morning that the Kingston facility is not the only one on the chopping block. Public Safety Minister Vic Toews is expected to give details about the planned closures at a news conference in Ottawa on Thursday afternoon.
> 
> The government wants to cut $5.2 billion from the federal coffers by 2014-15, and plans to cut $295 million from the Correctional Services Canada (CSC) budget by then.
> ...
> The government said in the budget tabled last month that _it_ "has no intention of building any new prisons," indicating that the inmates at the Kingston Penitentiary may be moved to another prison.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/kingston-penitentiary-opened-1835-close-budget-cuts-144534046.html


----------



## jimbotelecom

eMacMan said:


> For those that were wondering how the Harpolites were intending to pay for building and staffing all those new prisons, I think this should answer your questions.
> 
> 
> 
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/kingston-penitentiary-opened-1835-close-budget-cuts-144534046.html


Yes this is brilliant. I'm pretty sure we're getting get some new prisons. Or maybe not. Maybe the dimwits are going to leave it up to the next elected government.


----------



## MLeh

Kingston is a money pit just for upkeep and maintenance. Cost of maintenance there is higher there than any comparable Maximum Security Institution. Not really a bad plan fiscally to close the place and move the inmates someplace that isn't falling down. 

Also, they may not be building _new_ facilities, but that doesn't stop them from expanding the ones they already have. It's getting more and more difficult to get a new facility approved, with most neighbourhoods being in NIMBY mode. Most of the expansions were previously announced in 2010 as part of the infrastructure grant program (aka Canada's Economic Action Plan).


----------



## jimbotelecom

I Never Thought I'd Vote PC - YouTube


----------



## CubaMark

*Peter MacKay back in hot seat with latest DND procurement bungle*



> Yet another defence procurement embarrassment is about to hit the Conservative government, which is already reeling from criticism of its handling of the F-35 purchase by the Auditor-General.
> 
> It is understood that the $2-billion competition to chose a supplier for up to 138 armoured infantry fighting vehicles may have to start all over again after the Department of Public Works intervened in the tender process.





> Three bidders were chosen – French giant Nexter, General Dynamics Land Systems and BAE/Hagglunds – but sources suggest that all failed tests set by National Defence. A bidders’ conference was convened by DND to discuss price and technical modifications.
> 
> However, the meeting was cancelled by the independent Fairness Monitor, which deemed it may have been unfair to bidders that did not make it onto the short-list and expose the government to lawsuits.
> 
> The process has now ground to a halt and Public Works Minister, Rona Ambrose, wants it to start over again, to avoid accusations of bid-rigging.


(NationalPost)


----------



## Macfury

The Fairness Monitor bungled in this case.


----------



## CubaMark

*....and on the topic of prisons...*

*Is Canada headed towards privatized prisons?*



> Nobody in government Thursday was openly talking privatization or of dealings with American-based for profit prisons.
> 
> But no one was explaining how you can close down two long serving Canadian prisons and have no effect on the already overcrowded systems either.
> 
> While Toews said an almost 180-year-old prison is “not appropriate” to “effectively manage maximum security male offenders” he didn’t say what institution within Correctional Services Canada would be modern enough?
> 
> “Simply put, we have better options,” Toews told reporters.
> 
> Could privatized prisons be one of those options?
> 
> Fair questions since the Conservatives on election campaign trials have talked of spending billions on building more prisons. But it’s even more fair when you consider that *registered as a lobbyist in Ottawa on crime bill issues is none other than The GEO Group Inc., a $1.3-billion dollar American private for profit prison company* that trades on the New York stock exchange.
> 
> Registered with the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada as registrant 779026-278825-2 is the THE GEO Group Inc, One Park Place Suite 700, Boca Raton, FL GEO is *also listed as the client of The Parliamentary Group, a registered lobbying organization which lists former Reform Party MP Deb Grey as a partner.* Grey was the Reform’s first election member of parliament whose legislative assistant is now Prime Minister Stephen Harper.


(Read the full story at Toronto Sun)


----------



## Macfury

Sounds good. I hope they do it.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Sounds good. I hope they do it.


I hope they don't.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Sounds good. I hope they do it.


Yep. Judges being bribed to toss kids into jail for two years for stealing a candy bar. Great plan if you are a corporate shill. Bad for Canadians and Canadian Taxpayers.


----------



## CubaMark

_eMacMan, allow me to back you up with a link to the real-world evidence of just such an occurrence:_

*Judges jailed for taking bribes from private juvie prisons to send kids to jail*



> Two senior Pennsylvania judges have been sentenced to seven years in prison for taking bribes from juvenile detention centers -- in exchange for the bribes, the judges turned in guilty verdicts for the teens who appeared before them and sent them to juvie, thus enriching the operators of the kiddy gulag. For this, the judges received $2.6 million in kickbacks.


(BoingBoing)


----------



## BigDL

CM is this what they mean when it is said the private sector can get things done more efficiently?


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> _eMacMan, allow me to back you up with a link to the real-world evidence of just such an occurrence:_
> 
> *Judges jailed for taking bribes from private juvie prisons to send kids to jail*
> 
> 
> 
> (BoingBoing)


Thanks CM

Pretty obvious why Harpo's corporate buddies are salivating at the prospect of privatized jails.


----------



## MacDoc

Probably the best place to park it - the gov did the right thing finally but why the hell put people who

a) helped the military
b) put themselves at risk then and now

through a second hell of broken commitments. 



> *Rejected Afghan interpreters get second chance to come to Canada*
> STEPHANIE LEVITZ
> OTTAWA— The Canadian Press
> 
> Dozens of interpreters who served as Canada's voice during the war in Kandahar, but then met silence when they tried to immigrate here, are now being allowed in.
> More than 500 people applied under a special program set up in 2009 by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney to recognize “Afghans who face extraordinary personal risk as a result of their work in support of Canada's mission in Kandahar.”
> Now, the government is easing the rules, saying they were too restrictive.
> 
> Thousands of young men found work during the war with Western forces, despite the fact that doing so was akin to having a bull’s-eye painted on their backs.
> ‘Terps, as they are known by soldiers, were routinely threatened, harassed and intimidated by the Taliban.
> But in order to be allowed into Canada, they had to prove their lives were at risk and many were told their claims weren't believable.
> Now, those having their files reviewed are being told all they need is a letter of recommendation from a Canadian soldier or government official.
> 
> The other requirement of the program was that the applicants had to have been employed for 12 months between the fall of 2007 and 2011.
> That rule shut out some who worked during the bloodiest days of battle, but the requirement remains in place.
> Officials with Citizenship and Immigration Canada wouldn't give a specific number of rejections being reversed, saying it is dozens, but fewer than 100.
> 
> “Our additional review has been facilitated to ensure that all of those who may qualify for the program are given every reasonable consideration,” a spokeswoman for Mr. Kenney said in an e-mail.
> Among those hoping to be in Canada by summer is Muhibollah Karegar, who had his application rejected twice, in part because officials didn't believe his life was in danger.
> In February, he appealed directly to the Prime Minister and Mr. Kenney in a letter.
> *
> “What I find really disappointing about all of this is that, with my overall conduct, if I was a Canadian soldier, I would have probably got a medal for it,*” he wrote.
> *“I dread the thought of losing my life before I can get to safety in Canada.”*
> In an e-mail, Mr. Karegar said seven of his colleagues who worked with military were called to Kabul in late March for interviews.
> 
> As part of the review, the government has also waived $61,000 in fees that the Afghans would have ordinarily been required to pay as part of the permanent-residency process.
> 
> The government expects more than 500 Afghans – interpreters and their families – to be settled in Canada by the time the review is completed.
> 
> *It took more than a year after the program was launched for the first three dozen to arrive.*


Rejected Afghan interpreters get second chance to come to Canada - The Globe and Mail

Bullseye on their back indeed. A letter of recommendation should have been all that was needed for these very brave people to be granted asylum.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Bullseye on their back indeed. A letter of recommendation should have been all that was needed for these very brave people to be granted asylum.


Agreed.


----------



## Ottawaman

> OTTAWA - It seems only the best will do for International Development Minister Bev Oda, who refused to stay at one five-star hotel in London, England, last year and rebooked at a swanky establishment for more than double the cost.
> 
> Oda was originally supposed to stay at the Grange St. Paul's Hotel, site of the conference on international immunizations she was attending.
> 
> Instead, she had staff rebook her into the posh Savoy overlooking the Thames, an old favourite of royalty and currently owned by Prince Alwaleed of Saudi Arabia.
> 
> The switcheroo is reminiscent of a controversial trip six years ago, when Oda rejected a minivan for transportation and opted for a limousine instead.
> 
> Oda had a luxury car and driver in London shuttling her between conference site, her new hotel and beyond at an average cost of nearly $1,000 a day.
> 
> The bill for three nights at the Savoy last June set back taxpayers $1,995, or $665 a night. The government still had to pay for a night at the hotel she rejected, costing an additional $287.
> 
> An orange juice Oda expensed from the Savoy cost $16.
> 
> In last month's budget, the Canadian International Development Agency suffered cuts that rang in this year at $380 million.


Bev Oda's Savoy Hotel Stay: International Aid Minister Declines 5-Star Hotel For Another At Twice The Cost

Fire this embarrassment already. Another example of the "fiscal prudence" of the CPC.


----------



## SINC

Anyone who is interested in the Alberta election results today and does not have cable or satellite TV, can view a live online stream of Global TV Edmonton's election coverage tonight here:

Global Edmonton


----------



## SINC

Well, well, someone is trying real hard to stir the pot, or is it just me?

Quebec headed for independence, Ignatieff tells U.K. broadcaster


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> Anyone who is interested in the Alberta election results today and does not have cable or satellite TV, can view a live online stream of Global TV Edmonton's election coverage tonight here:
> 
> Global Edmonton


Here's the CBC feed. This will be good one to watch.
Alberta Votes | Election night live coverage - CBC News Live


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Anyone who is interested in the Alberta election results today and does not have cable or satellite TV, can view a live online stream of Global TV Edmonton's election coverage tonight here:
> 
> Global Edmonton





jimbotelecom said:


> Here's the CBC feed. This will be good one to watch.
> Alberta Votes | Election night live coverage - CBC News Live


Sadly, way too late for us here in NL to wait for the results, especially if it is close. Not even my wife, who was born and raised in AB, is up to waiting for the results ........ and we are both political "junkies".


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, way too late for us here in NL to wait for the results, especially if it is close. Not even my wife, who was born and raised in AB, is up to waiting for the results ........ and we are both political "junkies".


Doubt if they'll change much over night. What I am hoping for is either a minority or a very slim majority. Otherwise politicians tend to rank the interests of Corporate buddies as being far more important than taxpayers/voters.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Doubt if they'll change much over night. What I am hoping for is either a minority or a very slim majority. Otherwise politicians tend to rank the interests of Corporate buddies as being far more important than taxpayers/voters.


We shall see. We might stay up until midnight, our time, to see some early results. I hear that Calgary voters will be the determining factor, at least according to CTV and CBC.


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting results in AB. Just goes to show that, once again, polls are not the determining factor when it comes to the final vote.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting results in AB. Just goes to show that, once again, polls are not the determining factor when it comes to the final vote.


Those polls influenced a lot of non-conservative voters to vote PC to keep WR out. Thank goodness the urban centres rejected WR. What I find shocking is that the North and West stayed PC. Strategic voting saved the day. :clap:

WR strength is in the south of the province outside of Calgary. 

Yahoo!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Here's the electoral map -
Alberta Provincial Election 2012 - Calgary Herald

Looking forward to any comments Albertans might have. I know my friends were much relieved.


----------



## mrjimmy

Well, I guess there's hope for us yet.

Never thought I'd be so relieved to see the Conservatives remain in power.

Canada News: Alberta election: PCs steamroll past Wildrose Party - thestar.com


----------



## CubaMark

FWIW, I have a few friends in Alberta who are left-of-centre, and yet voted strategically for the PCs to head off WIldrose.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Globe's Ibbitson on intolerance and the price paid -

Smith learns hard lesson in Alberta: Intolerance doesn't win elections - The Globe and Mail


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> Looking forward to any comments Albertans might have. I know my friends were much relieved.


It was the election that no one saw coming. Not the pollsters and not the pundits. No one called it right.

Astoundingly, half of Albertans stayed away at the polls and a combination of mostly Liberals and NDPers abandoned their parties to vote against the Wildrose by voting for the PCs.

Much like the last federal election, 44% of the popular vote, a mere 9% more than the Wildrose translates in a 71% majority for the PCs.

The result? Albertans remain faced with a severely broken health care system that these same Tories have not been able to fix in 41 years of governing. Power bills remain the highest in Canada (except for the Arctic) under a failed deregulation experiment these same Tories refuse to admit is also broken. And a bent education system that is among the worst in the country will likely continue with hundreds of schools literally falling apart from lack of funding and too many students per classroom.

56% of Albertans who cast ballots wanted these Tories out, but didn't get their wish. While some will say that strategic voting took its toll on the upstart Wildrose, voter apathy is much more likely the real reason for the Tory win.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> 56% of Albertans who cast ballots wanted these Tories out, but didn't get their wish. While some will say that strategic voting took its toll on the upstart Wildrose, voter apathy is much more likely the real reason for the Tory win.


I understand your frustration with this, SINC. And I agree the system is badly flawed when a party that wins a minority of the votes gets the majority of the seats.

But, as you know, I have a lot of friends and family in Alberta, most of whom are normally pretty politically apathetic (it's hard to get worked up about an election you know the PCs are going to win) but they were all very active in this election... campaigning for the PCs (despite most of them having been life-long NDP supporters). You're absolutely right that strategic voting won this election for the PCs. Most of the people I know would rather chew foil than vote PC, but they did because they were terrified of what the Wildrose Party represents.

Your comment that the majority wanted to get rid of the PCs is true, but do you think those people who stuck with the Liberals and NDP would prefer a Wildrose government?!?

Hopefully, the PCs will recognize and respect that it was the Liberal and NDP vote that saved their bacon, and shift to the left to better represent their real constituency.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Hopefully, the PCs will recognize and respect that it was the Liberal and NDP vote that saved their bacon, and shift to the left to better represent their real constituency.


Hopefully, the PCs will move strongly to the right to recognize the frustration a much larger number of Albertans are experiencing with their centrist positions.


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> It was the election that no one saw coming. Not the pollsters and not the pundits. No one called it right.
> 
> Astoundingly, half of Albertans stayed away at the polls and a combination of mostly Liberals and NDPers abandoned their parties to vote against the Wildrose by voting for the PCs.
> 
> Much like the last federal election, 44% of the popular vote, a mere 9% more than the Wildrose translates in a 71% majority for the PCs.
> 
> The result? Albertans remain faced with a severely broken health care system that these same Tories have not been able to fix in 41 years of governing. Power bills remain the highest in Canada (except for the Arctic) under a failed deregulation experiment these same Tories refuse to admit is also broken. And a bent education system that is among the worst in the country will likely continue with hundreds of schools literally falling apart from lack of funding and too many students per classroom.
> 
> 56% of Albertans who cast ballots wanted these Tories out, but didn't get their wish. While some will say that strategic voting took its toll on the upstart Wildrose, voter apathy is much more likely the real reason for the Tory win.


Voter turnout is a consistent problem across the country. I don't know the solution for it but there are many riding associations debating that mandatory voting be implemented. I'm firmly against forcing people to vote. The Alberta result also adds credence to the proportional representation argument because the first past the post (FPTP) system alienates many voters and possible voters from having their views reflected in the legislature.

I don't think the PC's deserved a majority given the many problems that have surfaced with them in the last couple of months but FPTP combined with the strategic voting shift seems to have resulted in a very distorted result. It seems like the electorate chose to hold their nose for the devil they know.

Polling data in the last week of the election was scant for whatever reason but there was a noted drop following the "bozo" incidents that followed WR the remainder of the campaign. The one journalist who got it partially right was Don Braid who said he just didn't know which way it would go but noted momentum gathering for the PC's late last week in his blog.

I'm not up on the hospital wait time issue or deteriorating schools but Power in Ontario is heavily subsidized and with the exception of Quebec and NFLD it's subsidized too. It's a matter of time before the other provinces will have to let rates rise to reflect actual costs.

These problems are quite routine across the country. It's something we all need to grapple with and make improvements.

All in all that was one very interesting election. For once it didn't take 10 minutes to call a majority, more like 1/2 an hour.


----------



## CubaMark

I find it interesting that although strategic voting was apparently widespread, as SINC noted above, Liberals and NDPers abandoning their parties to support Tory candidates (and note that one can only use "Tory" appropriately at the provincial level, a term which is correctly used with Progressive Conservatives but not federal Conservatives), the NDP nonetheless managed to double its seat count to -4- and gain official party status, giving them new resources for the next trip to the polls.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Hopefully, the PCs will move strongly to the right to recognize the frustration a much larger number of Albertans are experiencing with their centrist positions.


Hopefully you are not going to see a shift to the right. There are a fair number of articles speculating that the PC's owe their lunch to the strategic voters and in all likelihood you will see some movement towards more progressive policies. I'll add to this that the influx of over a million people in the last decade is altering the conservative base with new demographics in vote rich urban centres. The clock is ticking for the right wingers.


----------



## eMacMan

I know this is not the popular position but I view not voting as a vote cast for non-of-the-above.

Sadly these votes are not recognized but they are a very clear indicator that none of the parties offer voters what they are looking for.

Most Albertan's recognize that their livelihood is directly tied to the oil, gas and/or agricultural industries. To have two parties well to the right of centre that recognize this, and two parties somewhat left of centre that consider key employers fair game, leaves the average Albertan with no-one that they really like. 

Neither WR nor the Cons show the slightest enthusiasm for environmental issues. I am not talking about shipping boatloads of cash to Al Gore. I am talking about things like modern fracking. Lots of anecdotal evidence that this practice can cause serious damage to underground aquifers but no efforts to properly study and/or limit the practice. 

Most Albertans are not concerned about CO2 emissions in the oil sands but believe greater attention needs to be paid to downstream and downwind pollution. Something neither right side party addressed.

I really agree with Don that the Cons totally messed things up when they deregulated the energy utilities. Albertans having sold the electrical infrastructure at 10¢ on the Dollar are seeing electrical bills that are often double the going retail price of electricity. It is a sore point around the province aggravated by new transmission lines being built to feed out of province demand but the cost billed to Albertan consumers. It will get worse as the Power Generators will then expand to provide the out of province consumers and you can bet there will be yet another surcharge to Alberta Consumers when that happens.

A final thought on the Alberta Liberal Party. They should have dumped the name a long time ago. The need for a party between the NDP and the WR or Conservatives does exist. However in Alberta, Liberal and Trudeau are considered synonymous and probably will be until Texans forget the Alamo. No matter how good their platform Alberta Liberals will go nowhere dragging the Trudeau anchor.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> I'm not up on the hospital wait time issue or deteriorating schools but Power in Ontario is heavily subsidized and with the exception of Quebec and NFLD it's subsidized too. It's a matter of time before the other provinces will have to let rates rise to reflect actual costs.
> 
> These problems are quite routine across the country. It's something we all need to grapple with and make improvements.





eMacMan said:


> I really agree with Don that the Cons totally messed things up when they deregulated the energy utilities. Albertans having sold the electrical infrastructure at 10¢ on the Dollar are seeing electrical bills that are often double the going retail price of electricity. It is a sore point around the province aggravated by new transmission lines being built to feed out of province demand but the cost billed to Albertan consumers. It will get worse as the Power Generators will then expand to provide the out of province consumers and you can bet there will be yet another surcharge to Alberta Consumers when that happens.


See my response in a new thread:

Deregulated Electricity - The Real Cost To Consumers - ehMac.ca


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> I know this is not the popular position but I view not voting as a vote cast for non-of-the-above.


You're right that it's not a popular position. Because that's not how our democracy functions; not voting is emphatically not a 'vote for none-of-the-above.' While it's still not technically a vote for 'none-of-the-above', a spoiled ballot is at least counted, and if 60% of the eligible voters spoiled their ballots, I think that would get noticed. But when 60% of the voters sit on their hands, that's interpreted as a vote for "Let someone else decide."



> Neither WR nor the Cons show the slightest enthusiasm for environmental issues.... I am talking about things like modern fracking. Lots of anecdotal evidence that this practice can cause serious damage to underground aquifers but no efforts to properly study and/or limit the practice.


There's more than anecdotal evidence. There's good scientific evidence. But the corporations that own both of these parties are doing everything in their considerable power to prevent the government from funding any studies, or, at the very least, to ensure that their privately owned contract researchers are the ones doing the studies.



> I really agree with Don that the Cons totally messed things up when they deregulated the energy utilities. Albertans having sold the electrical infrastructure at 10¢ on the Dollar are seeing electrical bills that are often double the going retail price of electricity.


As far as I know, deregulation of utilities has never resulted in cheaper rates for the citizens anywhere. Yet somehow (usually conservative) government are always championing 'deregulation' as a panacea for expensive infrastructure costs.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

SINC said:


> Much like the last federal election, 44% of the popular vote, a mere 9% more than the Wildrose translates in a 71% majority for the PCs.


Once again our dysfunctional first past the post voting system distorts the voters intentions.

70% of the seats and a massive majority with 44% of the vote. The Wild Rose get 9% fewer votes and gets 20% of the seats. And the Libs and NDP both get 20% of the vote between them and get 10% of the seats.

It should have been a minority government going by the proportions of voter support for the Alberta PCs.

What I hear in the media is "strong majority" and even "strong mandate" for Redford's party. Waiting to hear the Alberta PCs starting to expound on how voters gave them a strong mandate for change, when the majority of voters didn't actually say that.

I know that some think that proportional representation is a left-wing issue, but the distortions of our antique voting system have historically cut both ways.


----------



## screature

*Michael Ignatieff Continues to be an Embarassment*

Michael Ignatieff's comments on Quebec independence make waves

Michael Ignatieff hands Quebec separatists an unexpected gift

Quebec headed for independence? That's news to its premier

His statements prove he never was a politician or a leader or even really cares that much about Canada... for him everything is just an academic intellectual exercise... unbelievable.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Michael Ignatieff's comments on Quebec independence make waves
> 
> Michael Ignatieff hands Quebec separatists an unexpected gift
> 
> Quebec headed for independence? That's news to its premier
> 
> His statements prove he never was a politician or a leader or even really cares that much about Canada... for him everything is just an academic intellectual exercise... unbelievable.


SINC posted this yesterday too. Academically he is considered an expert on nationalism.
Given what's going on in the UK with the possibility of Scotland going their own way he was interviewed on the topic and asked the Quebec question. He's no longer an active Liberal and he is an academic so he offered his opinion.

Personally, the guy lost me when he backed Iraq War II. Dion was elected Liberal leader in part because of Iggy's Iraq position.

I can't fault Iggy as much as I fault the Liberal brain trust for making him leader when he really didn't have the right make-up.

Personally I don't disagree with his opinion on Quebec. There is little going on the fed scene to make Canada more appealing to Quebecers. People pointed at Justin Trudeau's statement on the state of Canadian federalism and said it was wrong but in my own family I have relatives that will stay in a separate Quebec should the time arise.

I'm torn. I love the province and think it's one of the key features that makes Canada a unique country.

It's academic at this point though. But it wasn't in the last referendum.

Time will tell.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> SINC posted this yesterday too. Academically he is considered an expert on nationalism.
> Given what's going on in the UK with the possibility of Scotland going their own way he was interviewed on the topic and asked the Quebec question. He's no longer an active Liberal and he is an academic so he offered his opinion.
> 
> Personally, the guy lost me when he backed Iraq War II. Dion was elected Liberal leader in part because of Iggy's Iraq position.
> 
> I can't fault Iggy as much as I fault the Liberal brain trust for making him leader when he really didn't have the right make-up.
> 
> Personally I don't disagree with his opinion on Quebec. There is little going on the fed scene to make Canada more appealing to Quebecers. People pointed at Justin Trudeau's statement on the state of Canadian federalism and said it was wrong but in my own family I have relatives that will stay in a separate Quebec should the time arise.
> 
> I'm torn. I love the province and think it's one of the key features that makes Canada a unique country.
> 
> It's academic at this point though. But it wasn't in the last referendum.
> 
> Time will tell.


I understand the context of the question jimbo, but I think if he actually cares about a united Canada he could easily defer from answering the question directly, it would be the diplomatic thing to do especially as a former leader of the Opposition striving to become Prime Minister. 

He should understand how statements form someone with his stature can only add fuel to the fire of the separatists. I believe that if he is truly a federalist it was at the very least irresponsible of him to make such statements but as I said in my initial post I think it more than anything points to the fact that he cares less about Canada as a country than he does about an academic intellectual exercise by answering such a question in the manner he did... It showed incredibly bad judgment on his part IMO and leads me to be thankful indeed that he did not become PM.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> I understand the context of the question jimbo, but I think if he actually cares about a united Canada he could easily defer from answering the question directly, it would be the diplomatic thing to do especially as a former leader of the Opposition striving to become Prime Minister.
> 
> He should understand how statements form someone with his stature can only add fuel to the fire of the separatists. I believe that if he is truly a federalist it was at the very least irresponsible of him to make such statements but as I said in my initial post I think it more than anything points to the fact that he cares less about Canada as a country than he does as an academic intellectual exercise by answering such a question in the manner he did... It showed incredibly bad judgment on his part IMO and leads me to be thankful indeed that he did not become PM.


As is the usual response to this sort of thing, he's issued a response to the report. He's basically said that he was quoted out of context. Sorry I do not have a link at my fingertips but it is in the news and it is current information.


----------



## Macfury

Jack Layton, if anyone, gave Quebec separatists their latest encouragement for a sovereign nation. I consider this far worse than Ignatieff's statement.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Jack Layton, if anyone, gave Quebec separatists their latest encouragement for a sovereign nation. I consider this far worse than Ignatieff's statement.


What was his statement?


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> What was his statement?


I presume (please correct me if I'm wrong) MF is referring to the NDPs gains in QC being at least partially due to some perceived sympathy in the NDP (and by Jack in particular) for the separatist agenda.

I don't think this is really true; I don't think Jack or the NDP in general have any desire to see Quebec leave Canada, but rather they have a desire to see the rest of Canada adopt some of the progressive policies and social attitudes of Quebec. But it's easy to understand how expressing admiration for some of the things that make Quebec distinct could be misinterpreted as separatist sympathies.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, it was his willingness to drop _The Clarity Act_ and make it easier for Quebec to separate:

Are the NDP more Bloc than the Bloc? - The Globe and Mail


----------



## SINC

This might sound like it is coming out of left field, but several people have now approached me with a theory about the NDP federally.

Their theory goes like this; Quebec separatists finally realized the Bloc was not the way to gain support for separation. A provincial party in a federal parliament made no sense after years of head butting. Instead they see an opportunity to take control of parliament by 'becoming NDPers'. Now that they have official opposition status with the NDP and a francophone leader, the agenda now becomes to use the NDP to gain a majority in parliament that will pass legislation granting Quebec nationhood in future years.

Keep in mind this is NOT my opinion, but I have been told this enough times by what I consider to be average westerners, some born and raised in Quebec, trying to discredit the NDP or put fear in the hearts of Canadians.

Anyone have any thoughts on such a conspiracy theory by the Quebec faction of the NDP? Any reason to be wary of this at all?


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> What was his statement?


It could be a reference to the Sherbrooke Declaration?

The Sherbrooke Declaration is not a statement by Jack Layton per se but the policy of the ND Party. Other than that I don't know.

The Quebec Independence Conspiracy hmm? Sounds like talking points from the Conservative Party, for the next election or perhaps a soon to be released series of attack ad commercials, in preparation for the next election. But then again Sinc I not sure who you have spoken too lately


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> But then again Sinc I not sure who you have spoken too lately


I made no secret of who I heard this theory from BigDL:



SINC said:


> Keep in mind this is NOT my opinion, but I have been told this enough times by what I consider to be average westerners, some born and raised in Quebec, trying to discredit the NDP or put fear in the hearts of Canadians.


For the record, none of them are Conservatives that I know of at all. They are as I said average people who talk to me every week. In fact, one of them, I know for a fact is a native New Brunswicker and a staunch Liberal party member locally.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on such a conspiracy theory by the Quebec faction of the NDP? Any reason to be wary of this at all?


Seems fairly unlikely. Honestly, at the time, I think the wave of NDP support in Quebec was as much a shock to the NDP as it was to Quebec. And who would have predicted that Layton would have died so soon after the election, thus allowing a Mulcair to take over leadership? 

screature likely has a clearer perspective on this, but my sense is that it's a minority of people in Quebec who truly want separation; most simply want a good deal for Quebec, whether that's separation, staying within Canada, being a nation within Canada or whatever. 

So this past election, well, it was a sense of the Bloc isn't getting us anywhere, let's try someone else and see what happens.

EDIT TO ADD: And who'd have predicted the NDP would have come in so strong this past election? For most Canadians, voting NDP is more often a protest vote than a serious thought that it might actually elect someone from that party.


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> So this past election, well, it was a sense of the Bloc isn't getting us anywhere, let's try someone else and see what happens.


Which is exactly why these folks seem to think there is more to it than appears on the surface. 



Sonal said:


> And who'd have predicted the NDP would have come in so strong this past election? For most Canadians, voting NDP is more often a protest vote than a serious thought that it might actually elect someone from that party.


Which again points out why people are suspicious. Just saying.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Which is exactly why these folks seem to think there is more to it than appears on the surface.


I still don't buy it. That it's unlikely, doesn't make necessarily make it the result of some incredibly devious master plan.


----------



## SINC

And thanks for the response. I wanted to know if there is any meat on the bone of this theory. You say no, but so far, I'm left thinking maybe.


----------



## Sonal

There's also that as I understand it, the Bloc (aside from the issue of separatism) is politically closest in policy to the NDP. So it's as likely that people tired of separatism (at least temporarily) and then picked the next most similar party.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> This might sound like it is coming out of left field, but several people have now approached me with a theory about the NDP federally.
> 
> *Their theory goes like this; Quebec separatists finally realized the Bloc was not the way to gain support for separation. A provincial party in a federal parliament made no sense after years of head butting. Instead they see an opportunity to take control of parliament by 'becoming NDPers'. Now that they have official opposition status with the NDP and a francophone leader, the agenda now becomes to use the NDP to gain a majority in parliament that will pass legislation granting Quebec nationhood in future years.*
> 
> Keep in mind this is NOT my opinion, but I have been told this enough times by what I consider to be average westerners, some born and raised in Quebec, trying to discredit the NDP or put fear in the hearts of Canadians.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on such a conspiracy theory by the Quebec faction of the NDP? Any reason to be wary of this at all?


If the separatists think this then I think they are misguided.... if nothing else Jack was a federalist and a politician... ergo he would do and say what it ever it took to maintain Quebec within the federation and use them to help him and his party form government. Much as Trudeau did with official bilingualism... cost be damned, just get power and keep it by pacifying Quebec. Then when the separatists get too strong/bold just invoke the War Measures Act and shut them down....

It was a great strategy at the time, but we are still living with/paying for it today with no resolution is sight.

Some people like to see Trudeau as a visionary when in fact I think he was just a good political strategist relative to his time and circumstances...

Layton was no different in this regard IMO... I don't think he wanted Quebec to separate... he was merely playing the separatist vote along to keep them in the federalist fold...

Like I said, If the separatists think Layton was open to a separate Quebec they are misguided... and just to add, have little understanding of federalist politics and are a bit naive.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And who'd have predicted the NDP would have come in so strong this past election? For most Canadians, voting NDP is more often a protest vote than a serious thought that it might actually elect someone from that party.


After Layton's promise, many more predicted it than before.


----------



## Sonal

Thinking a bit, if I took unlikely events and decided they were conspiracies, I'd say that the Alberta Tories planted a couple of socially conservative wing nuts in the Wild Rose party, and then had them speak up at the last minute so that the Liberal and NDP voters of the province would see the Wild Rose's high poll numbers, hear the socially conservative agenda, panic and strategically vote Tory, thus allowing them to keep leadership of the province despite losing a lot of their traditional base to Wild Rose.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> There's also that as I understand it, the Bloc (aside from the issue of separatism) is politically closest in policy to the NDP. So it's as likely that people tired of separatism (at least temporarily) and then picked the next most similar party.


Tis true... for soft separatists, but there is also this (as was true for me)...

Many federalists, (even with conservative inclinations) but were tired of voting for the Libs to maintain a federalist MP (i.e. anyone but the Bloc) when they saw the Orange tide decided to vote NDP, thereby killing two birds with one stone... Get rid of their do nothing Lib MP and still elect a federalist, seeing as in certain riding s the Cons had no chance...

For example, that is why Nicole Turmel won IMO... I voted for her as did many of my non-NDP supporting federalist friends.


----------



## Sonal

So then if you have soft separatist trying out the NDP, and then federalists who were tired of voting Liberal trying the NDP (and I'll add in the Liberal's extremely poor campaign).... well, it makes more sense of a combination of factors rather than a massive separatist conspiracy.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I made no secret of who I heard this theory from BigDL:
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, none of them are Conservatives that I know of at all. They are as I said average people who talk to me every week. In fact, one of them, I know for a fact is a native New Brunswicker and a staunch Liberal party member locally.


I understand what you said, I was trying to make light of the way the conservative party defines parties and leaders that's all.

You might have received info third, forth or 26th hand from the individual who made the speculation in the first place.

I also speculated on a question that was at least third party re. my response Sherbrooke Declaration, I took a shot at an answer, who knows if that's the statement, I certainly don't.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> So then if you have soft separatist trying out the NDP, and then federalists who were tired of voting Liberal trying the NDP (and I'll add in the Liberal's extremely poor campaign).... well, it makes more sense of a combination of factors rather than a massive separatist conspiracy.


+1 Agreed.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Turns out the voter turnout in Alberta was the highest since 1993, and substantially higher than 2008. 

Alberta voter turnout highest since 1993


----------



## MacDoc

Fiscally responsible Cons???.......not. Between fishing trips via helicopter and limosines these clowns are a travesty of good government.



> *International Development Minister Bev Oda apologizes for luxury hotel spending*
> April 24, 2012
> 
> Joanna Smith
> 
> OTTAWA—International Development Minister Bev Oda said she is sorry for making taxpayers foot the bill when she upgraded from a five-star hotel to an even fancier one while attending a conference in London, England last year.
> 
> “The expenses are unacceptable (and) should never have been charged to taxpayers. I have repaid the costs associated with the changing of hotels, and I unreservedly apologize,” Oda said during question period in the House of Commons on Tuesday.
> 
> On Monday, Oda reimbursed the federal government the extra money she claimed in expenses when she cancelled her reservation at a posh hotel and switched to one favoured by royalty.
> 
> The Canadian Press reported Monday that Oda turned her nose up at her original $287-a-night reservation last June at the posh Grange St. Paul’s Hotel, which was hosting a donors conference on international immunization that she and notables such as Microsoft chairman Bill Gates were attending.
> 
> Oda had her staff rebook her into the Savoy, an even more luxurious hotel ($665 a night) overlooking the Thames that has hosted such stars as Frank Sinatra, Claude Monet and Charlie Chaplin.
> 
> The new bill came to $1,995 for three nights plus an additional $287, because the government lost its one-night deposit at the Grange.
> 
> Oda reimbursed taxpayers the difference in hotel prices, the cancellation fee and a $16 glass of orange juice she ordered at the Savoy after the story broke Monday.
> 
> Oda has not explained the switch in hotels.
> 
> She has also not explained why she hired a chauffeur to drive her in a luxury car between the two hotels — two kilometers away — and to other spots in the city for a cost of $2,850 over three days.
> 
> She did not reimburse that expense and did not answer questions about it in the Commons after delivering her apology on Tuesday.
> 
> Her press secretary, Justin Broekema, did not respond to an emailed question about the luxury car on Tuesday.
> 
> Oda has been in trouble for lavish spending before, sparking criticism from the opposition for charging taxpayers with thousands of dollars in limousine rides in 2006 and 2007.
> 
> The first time, she expensed $5,475 in limousine bills to be driven to and from the Juno Awards ceremony in Halifax, later reimbursing the taxpayer $2,200 of the bill after the spending was questioned in the Commons.
> 
> In 2007, Oda claimed $1,200 for a limousine trip that brought her to both a government event and a Conservative Party of Canada event.
> 
> Oda received a standing ovation from her fellow Conservative MPs, but New Democrat ethics critic Charlie Angus suggested the apology was insincere.
> 
> “I will have to wade through the crocodile tears,” Angus said before asking whether Oda would also reimburse taxpayers for the $1,000-a-day luxury car and driver she used during the trip.


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> Fiscally responsible Cons???.......not. Between fishing trips via helicopter and limosines these clowns are a travesty of good government.


I thought we were on track to keep the name calling out of threads from now on?

There was no need for the term clowns, nor cons. It should have been Conservatives without name calling if we are to improve the experience here. If we are to accomplish this, should not we ALL change our habits?


----------



## CubaMark

I have a few choice words for Oda that I won't share publicly.

But it is rather shameful that the person at the head of Canada's International Development activities should choose to embrace such luxury. She still hasn't justified her move _from the hotel where the conference she was attending was taking place_ to a place far enough away that she required a limo and driver (at additional expense).


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I have a few choice words for Oda that I won't share publicly.
> 
> But it is rather shameful that the person at the head of Canada's International Development activities should choose to embrace such luxury. She still hasn't justified her move _from the hotel where the conference she was attending was taking place_ to a place far enough away that she required a limo and driver (at additional expense).


I don't believe being head of CIDA should be relevant. There should just be generally accepted level of accommodation for all but heads of state.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> I have a few choice words for Oda that I won't share publicly.


Yep, she's a piece of work and an embarrassment to the party, not to mention her disrespect for Canadians with her 'entitlement' behaviour.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yep, she's a piece of work and an embarrassment to the party, not to mention her disrespect for Canadians with her 'entitlement' behaviour.


Oda is an unfortunate name isn't it?


----------



## screature

I think the reason why they keep Oda on from what I have heard is that she is really good at networking and a great fundraiser... I don't know that for a fact but I have heard a few people say that is the reason she has been kept in Cabinet.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> she is a great fundraiser...


I certainly hope so with all that she spends. (*rimshot*)

I'm sad that this Government allows such blatantly arrogant behaviour to go unpunished. Between MacKay and the jets, Clement and his cottage country graft and Oda bellying up the the pork bar, it leaves you shaking your head. 

Perhaps I should be thankful and let them be the masters of their own undoing. Can't come soon enough.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> I certainly hope so with all that she spends. (*rimshot*)
> 
> I'm sad that this Government allows such blatantly arrogant behaviour to go unpunished. Between MacKay and the jets, Clement and his cottage country graft and Oda bellying up the the pork bar, it's leaves you shaking your head.
> 
> Perhaps I should be thankful and let them be the masters of their own undoing. Can't come soon enough.


Well, Oda's paid it back. While it should not have happened in the first place, it's good that she's paid it back.

I'm not sure that MacKay can afford to pay back his excessive chopper travel.... it's not like it's a few thousand in hotels and limos.


----------



## eMacMan

Sonal said:


> Well, Oda's paid it back. While it should not have happened in the first place, it's good that she's paid it back.
> 
> I'm not sure that MacKay can afford to pay back his excessive chopper travel.... it's not like it's a few thousand in hotels and limos.


Well sort of. I understand the move also resulted in a fairly hefty Limo rental bill which at this point is still on the Taxpayers dime.


----------



## i-rui

also the (partial) repayment only happened the day the story broke, nearly a year after the fact.

she didn't (partially) pay it back out of some kind of responsibility of her actions, she (partially) paid it back because she got caught.


----------



## Ottawaman

She paid it back with her tax payer funded salary. We still paid for it.
Not the first time she's done this either.

It seems Harper won't discipline any of his senior staff.

Since Sinc brought up the topic of conspiracy theories I imagine that Harper was behind Oda adding the famous "not". Now he can't demand her resignation (although he might dearly like to after all the embarrassment she causes) without fear or threat, that she'd expose him as the originator of the scheme.


----------



## Ottawaman

According to the CBC, this is what she said yesterday, before she was clearly ordered to apologize:

"In an interview with a local television station yesterday, she said she had nothing to be embarrassed about and she suggested her critics were being "extremist."

Bev Oda apologizes for swanky hotel stay - Politics - CBC News


----------



## BigDL

I am just amazed at what get peoples knickers in a knot. An expensive glass of OJ or 5 star hotels not being good enough so a minister up the swank everyone has an opinion.

OGL fails and refuses to be honest and to tell Parliament the true cost of running the country's business. OGL and his Government are found in contempt of Parliament. Moneys are diverted from their authorized purpose and used to grease the election of one Tony Clement and very few get upset or care.

Bev Oda lies to Parliament and is found in contempt of Parliament and the big deal is a glass of OJ Swank hotels and limo's, my my


----------



## jimbotelecom

It all has to do with value for taxpayer dollar. Apparently the Orange Juice was tang for $16. She had the option to go "fresh squeezed" for $32 but resisted after consulting with the Prime Minister who instructed her to run her department as if it was her own business.

Same thing for the room. She opted for more inspiring surroundings to boost her productivity.

How dare you bring up past history. We all know that the committee that found the former minority government in contempt was stacked with opposition members who had a vested interest in making the government look bad. As for Minister Clement, expenditures in his riding, created a sense of accomplishment and well being that inspired him to more a much more important role at the Treasury Board.

Honestly, get with the program.


----------



## Sonal

Ottawaman said:


> She paid it back with her tax payer funded salary. We still paid for it.
> Not the first time she's done this either.


I don't concern myself about what a politician might do with their own private salary, any more than I concern myself with what one of my employees does with their private salary. 

But my point is simply, of all the examples of wasteful spending and fiscal irresponsibility we can get worked up about in the Harper government.... well, there are bigger fish to fry. 

I don't condone this, but it's ultimately a minor issue.

Hey, if we're going to go in for conspiracy theories, maybe we should ask ourselves that with all this focus on this issue, what's going on quietly behind the scenes? beejacon


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> She paid it back with her tax payer funded salary. We still paid for it.


That argument is a non-starter. You also paid for the homes cars, and food of a million Canadians in the public service.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

*Operation Distraction-of-the-Week begins tomorrow...
*
*Backbench Tory poised to trigger abortion debate in Parliament*



> A House of Commons debate Thursday triggered by a backbench Conservative MP has led pro-choice forces to accuse the Harper government of trying to resurrect a divisive national discussion about abortion.
> 
> Stephen Woodworth, who represents the Ontario riding of Kitchener Centre, will ask for a special parliamentary committee to discuss the definition of a human being when he rises in the House.





> Opposition MPs say Thursday's debate wouldn't be happening if Mr. Harper wasn't considering re-opening the abortion issue.
> 
> “I've never seen anyone control [his caucus] so absolutely as he does,” Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair said. “If he didn't want that to be discussed, it wouldn't be there.”
> 
> “This is their backdoor way of signalling to their base that this is what they'd actually like to do and they just can't do it.”


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

Such is the nature of government. Nothing is decided forever.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Such is the nature of government. Nothing is decided forever.


The self proclaimed champions of science and reason are quite beholden to their 400 year old understanding of when life begins. Scares the crap out of them should we assess the issue with modern technology and understanding.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yes it should be interesting to see how the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper deals with the wing nut fringe over the longer term. It will surely help them garner support from the female vote as the Conservatives look for another majority.

Good luck with that.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Operation Distraction-of-the-Week begins tomorrow...
> *
> *Backbench Tory poised to trigger abortion debate in Parliament*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)





> Opposition MPs say Thursday's debate wouldn't be happening if Mr. Harper wasn't considering re-opening the abortion issue.
> 
> “I've never seen anyone control [his caucus] so absolutely as he does,” Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair said. “If he didn't want that to be discussed, it wouldn't be there.”


Mulcair can spin this anyway he wants but the fact is MPs are free to move PMBs and PMMs on anything they chose with no centralized control whatsoever. The fact is that this is only a Motion not a Bill and even if it were to be voted on in the majority it is not binding on the government in anyway to do anything.

Clearly Mr. Woodworth is pro-life and wants to change the definition of when a "human being" comes into existence, but his motion is not a Government plot to open the abortion issue in terms of legislation... this is the work of one MP and will undoubtedly find supporters in the Liberal camp as well, not as likely with the NDP as they will most likely be whipped.

Both the PM and the Justice Minister have made it clear there will be no legislation concerning abortion, period.

And it is not Operation Distraction, there is a random draw for which PMBs and PMMs get put on the order paper and the fact that M-312 is to be debated is pure luck of the draw, so so much for the organized plot or distraction theory.


----------



## eMacMan

Forgive my cynicism but it's time to take a very close look at other pending legislation. Usually governments trot out the abortion and/or the long gun smokescreen to divert attention away from something particularly heinous. I doubt seriously that the indiscretions of a couple of Cabinet Ministers, requires this sort of disguise.

Can anyone say Bills C-11 and C-30? 

Screature and I do not always agree, but he is much closer to Parliament than most of us. Maybe he can tell us if it's just C-11 and C-30, or if there is something even worse the Tories are trying to slip by us.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Forgive my cynicism but it's time to take a very close look at other pending legislation. Usually governments trot out the abortion and/or the long gun smokescreen to divert attention away from something particularly heinous. I doubt seriously that the indiscretions of a couple of Cabinet Ministers, requires this sort of disguise.
> 
> Can anyone say Bills C-11 and C-30?
> 
> Screature and I do not always agree, but he is much closer to Parliament than most of us. Maybe he can tell us if it's just C-11 and C-30, or if there is something even worse the Tories are trying to slip by us.


See post above. Plus I really don't know what you mean by "slip by us" every piece of legislation goes through the exact same very public Parliamentary Legislative process. 

I am not privy to the Government's legislative agenda.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Mulcair can spin this anyway he wants but the fact is MPs are free to move PMBs PMMs on anything they chose with no centralized control whatsoever. The fact is that this is only a Motion not a Bill and even if it were to be voted on in the majority it is not binding on the government in anyway to do anything.


He seems to be counting on the public not understanding that this is only a Motion.

A pretty sad beginning for Mulclair.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Mulclair is spot on. Knowing that this is an attempt by one member of the lunatic fringe, that member could be disciplined by the edict of the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper, but this will not happen as it would be a cause for concern for that element of Conservative Party supporters.

Mulclair is simply pointing out that the top down management of caucus that is a normal trait for this government seems to be nowhere in sight on this particular issue. Anyone who is concerned about reproductive rights should be alarmed by this tact. This will only bruise the Conservative Party but that's a good thing for the opposition.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Mulclair is spot on. Knowing that this is an attempt by one member of the lunatic fringe, that member could be disciplined by the edict of the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper, but this will not happen as it would be a cause for concern for that element of Conservative Party supporters.
> 
> Mulclair is simply pointing out that the top down management of caucus that is a normal trait for this government seems to be nowhere in sight on this particular issue. Anyone who is concerned about reproductive rights should be alarmed by this tact. This will only bruise the Conservative Party but that's a good thing for the opposition.


No he is wrong PMBs and PMMs are not whipped in terms of submission (and are generally a free vote as well). An MP is free to submit whatever they choose and many MPs have over a dozen PMBs and PMMs outside the Order of Precedence at any one point in time so to think that the PM has the time to vet every PMB or PMM is just silly. 

Only when the draw occurs and the MPs position in the order is known will they even begin to think about what Bill or Motion they want to put forward once they are *inside* the Order of Precedence. Often times an MP will not even have the chance for their PMB or PMM to even come up for debate within an entire Parliament because they are so far down the list.

So to think that this was coordinated by the PM is absolute nonsense because it is all based on literally the "luck of the draw" as to where an MP sits in the order and when or if at all their Bill or Motion will debated.

Mulcair knows this (or at least he should if he understands Parliamentary procedure, he may not, many MPs rely on their much more experienced Parliamentary staff for such information) he is just spinning this as theater for his own purposes which is understandable seeing as his MPs in the the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs which decides whether or or not a PMB or PMM are voteable voted in favor of M-312 to be made voteable. This means the Motion gets 2 hours of debate in the House instead of just 1 and obviously can be voted upon as opposed to be just debated. They wanted to be able to make a mockery of the Motion for their own purposes.

It is helpful to know how things actually work in terms of Parliamentary Procedure to be truly critical of such matters rather than relying on rhetoric and personal bias or uninformed and ignorant media.


----------



## jimbotelecom

No one was saying this was coordinated by the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper, however he is tolerating the wishes of the member of his party on an issue her stated he did not want to address. Mulclair is quite right in pointing out the top down nature in which he manages caucus, inferring that the member could have been persuaded to withdraw his motion. Mulclair is playing to the majority of Canadians who will find this event distasteful and unnecessary.


----------



## screature

No he is wrong when it comes to PMBs and PMMs the PM has no say in what an MP submits.

And again...



> Mulcair knows this (or at least he should if he understands Parliamentary procedure, he may not, many MPs rely on their much more experienced Parliamentary staff for such information) he is just spinning this as theater for his own purposes which is understandable seeing as his MPs in the the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs which decides whether or or not a PMB or PMM are voteable voted in favor of M-312 to be made voteable. This means the Motion gets 2 hours of debate in the House instead of just 1 and obviously can be voted upon as opposed to be just debated. They wanted to be able to make a mockery of the Motion for their own purposes.


----------



## jimbotelecom

You are quite correct he has no say in what an MP submits. That is not what is being questioned here. For the good of public policy can an MP withdraw their motion when they are convinced by others that they should do so? The answer is a simple "Yes".


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> You are quite correct he has no say in what an MP submits. That is not what is being questioned here. For the good of public policy *can an MP withdraw their motion when they are convinced by others *that they should do so? The answer is a simple "Yes".


The point is this is not the practice of the Prime Ministers Office (probably any PMO) they simply don't have the time to meddle with PMBs or PMMs submitted by their own Caucus especially a PMM which is in no way binding even if voted for in the majority and so does not affect public policy, it is only a debate, it is not legislation.

Departmental and Ministerial staff and sometimes the Minister of a Department can become involved with PMBs or PMMs but usually only as technical support when the Bill falls under their jurisdiction so if anyone was to have influenced Mr. Woodworth it would have been Justice Minister Nicholson.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> No he is wrong PMBs and PMMs are not whipped in terms of submission (and are generally a free vote as well). An MP is free to submit whatever they choose and many MPs have over a dozen PMBs and PMMs outside the Order of Precedence at any one point in time so to think that the PM has the time to vet every PMB or PMM is just silly.
> 
> Only when the draw occurs and the MPs position in the order is known will they even begin to think about what Bill or Motion they want to put forward once they are *inside* the Order of Precedence. Often times an MP will not even have the chance for their PMB or PMM to even come up for debate within an entire Parliament because they are so far down the list.
> 
> So to think that this was coordinated by the PM is absolute nonsense because it is all based on literally the "luck of the draw" as to where an MP sits in the order and when or if at all their Bill or Motion will debated.
> 
> Mulcair knows this (or at least he should if he understands Parliamentary procedure, he may not, many MPs rely on their much more experienced Parliamentary staff for such information) he is just spinning this as theater for his own purposes which is understandable seeing as his MPs in the the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs which decides whether or or not a PMB or PMM are voteable voted in favor of M-312 to be made voteable. This means the Motion gets 2 hours of debate in the House instead of just 1 and obviously can be voted upon as opposed to be just debated. They wanted to be able to make a mockery of the Motion for their own purposes.
> 
> It is helpful to know how things actually work in terms of Parliamentary Procedure to be truly critical of such matters rather than relying on rhetoric and personal bias or informed and ignorant media.


Thanks for a fairly clear explanation of Private Member Bills.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> You are quite correct he has no say in what an MP submits. That is not what is being questioned here. For the good of public policy can an MP withdraw their motion when they are convinced by others that they should do so? The answer is a simple "Yes".


If the PM has no say in what a MP submits, does it then not follow that he could have no knowledge of what is about to be presented until it is too late to stop it? Just saying.


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> If the PM has no say in what a MP submits, does it then not follow that he could have no knowledge of what is about to be presented until it is too late to stop it? Just saying.


SINC - a top down control oriented PM like the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper is fully aware of the content of the motion. He is tolerating this one member's motion because a good portion of his support base would like to see reproductive rights reversed in Canada. Mulclair is also playing to his base and he is solidifying it by taking that stance that he is taking.

It has nothing to do with procedure. Mulclair has not criticized or mentioned procedure he is merely pointing out that there are other choices that the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper could have made to honour his statement that his government was not going to re-open the issue. Screature views the episode as harmless in the scheme of things, but I know that there are many Canadians who are extremely concerned about this motion. That's why it is newsworthy.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> SINC - a top down control oriented PM like the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper is fully aware of the content of the motion. He is tolerating this one member's motion because a good portion of his support base would like to see reproductive rights reversed in Canada. Mulclair is also playing to his base and he is solidifying it by taking that stance that he is taking.
> 
> It has nothing to do with procedure. Mulclair has not criticized or mentioned procedure he is merely pointing out that there are other choices that the Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper could have made to honour his statement that his government was not going to re-open the issue. Screature views the episode as harmless in the scheme of things, *but I know that there are many Canadians who are extremely concerned about this motion. * That's why it is newsworthy.


Sure and some Canadians are worried about the world coming to the end in 2012, but I don't put much value in their concern regarding that either. Just because someone expresses concern or is fearful of something doesn't mean their reasons are justifiable or logical.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Sure and some Canadians are worried about the world coming to the end in 2012, but I don't put much value in their concern regarding that either. Just because someone expresses concern or is fearful of something doesn't mean their reasons are justifiable or logical.


I do think watching how this same issue has risen in prominence in the USA has a number of Canadians a little bit worried. Yes, we are different countries and different cultures, but we're still at least a little bit influenced by our neighbours to the south.

So even if this is procedurally unlikely to come to anything, it's the hint of it that's worrisome.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Sure and some Canadians are worried about the world coming to the end in 2012, but I don't put much value in their concern regarding that either. Just because someone expresses concern or is fearful of something doesn't mean their reasons are justifiable or logical.


The Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper is on record as saying that his government would not be reopening the debate on reproductive rights yet one of his members is doing an end run using PMM to his advantage and reopening a key aspect of the issue. The same government has lied about air plane costs, can't control freeloading MP expenditures and abuses of privilege, etc. Possibly a cause for concern. Mulclair thinks so. So do I.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I do think watching how this same issue has risen in prominence in the USA has a number of Canadians a little bit worried. Yes, we are different countries and different cultures, but we're still at least a little bit influenced by our neighbours to the south.
> 
> So even if this is procedurally unlikely to come to anything, it's the hint of it that's worrisome.





jimbotelecom said:


> The Rt.[sic]Hon.[sic]Stephen Harper is on record as saying that his government would not be reopening the debate on reproductive rights yet one of his members is doing an end run using PMM to his advantage and reopening a key aspect of the issue. The same government has lied about air plane costs, can't control freeloading MP expenditures and abuses of privilege, etc. Possibly a cause for concern. Mulclair thinks so. So do I.


Well if Harper wants to guarantee they will lose the next election going anywhere beyond the (in the end) completely inconsequential PMM on this issue of abortion, which this motion actually strictly speaking isn't even about, (yes we know where it is going with the subject matter, but nowhere in M-312 is the word abortion even used once) then sure he could follow up on it with legislation...

But if you really think he wants to pass legislation on abortion and kill his government and its chances of forming government again in 2015 I don't think you appreciate how much Harper likes being in power.


----------



## SINC

I have to agree with that screature. Harper isn't about to legislate anything on the issue because he knows it would be political suicide, thus the whole thing is much ado about nothing and grandstanding by the NDP. Not to say the NDP are not being smart to take advantage of the situation by trying to incite Candians, but in the end they too likely know they are playing politics with zero chance of anything major coming from the motion.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Well if Harper wants to guarantee they will lose the next election going anywhere beyond this (in the end) completely inconsequential PMM on this issue of abortion, which this motion actually strictly speaking isn't even about, (yes we know where it is going with the subject matter, but nowhere in M-312 is the word abortion even used once) then sure he could follow up on it with legislation...
> 
> But if you really think he wants to pass legislation on abortion and kill his government and its chances of forming government again in 2015 I don't think you appreciate how much Harper likes being in power.


I do agree with you that Harper is too wily to let this thing have any wings. Regardless of what his personal feelings may or may not be on this, I think he's smarter than that.

But I do think that there is a lot of concern that some of the issues rearing up in the United States are going to make their way up here. So I think that worry is that while this particular matter is likely inconsequential, it may be the beginning of something bigger down the road... maybe it's very far down the road, but I don't like this possibility.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Well if Harper wants to guarantee they will lose the next election going anywhere beyond the (in the end) completely inconsequential PMM on this issue of abortion, which this motion actually strictly speaking isn't even about, (yes we know where it is going with the subject matter, but nowhere in M-312 is the word abortion even used once) then sure he could follow up on it with legislation...
> 
> But if you really think he wants to pass legislation on abortion and kill his government and its chances of forming government again in 2015 I don't think you appreciate how much Harper likes being in power.


I agree whole heartedly. If he wants to keep power there will be no legislation. On the other hand the "pro-lifers" (I really don't like the term) have another agenda. They want to plant a poison pill so that the definition of "human beings" is approved by parliament to their liking which I believe is the moment a sperm and egg unite. If parliament was so irresponsible to agree with the definition, how would the courts act if challenged on the subject? Canada has a been through this already and a majority of Canadians do not want reproductive rights re-opened.

Mulclair will drive the wedge in on this. Rae has members who are pro-life. This does not play well for the ruling government. It plays very well for Mulclair. 

Why are we wasting valuable time on this. There are so many other pressing issues. This could have been shut down.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I do agree with you that Harper is too wily to let this thing have any wings. Regardless of what his personal feelings may or may not be on this, I think he's smarter than that.
> 
> But I do think that there is a lot of concern that some of the issues rearing up in the United States are going to make their way up here. So I think that worry is that while this particular matter is likely inconsequential, it may be the beginning of something bigger down the road... maybe it's very far down the road, but I don't like this possibility.


It's funny you raise what is going on in the US because I don't follow US politics all that closely and I don't know that many Canadians follow it all that closely either, especially when they don't follow the politics in their own backyard very closely. (I don't even know what you are referring to about what is going on in the US re:abortion). 

So I personally don't see the worry in that but I suppose I could be wrong, also I think in general in Canada we are much more in favor of a woman's right to choose and less divided than they are in the US on the subject of abortion.


----------



## Macfury

Unless Stephen Harper muzzled each one of his MPs, they are free to bring up whatever they choose. If he muzzled them, people would complain about that.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> I agree whole heartedly. If he wants to keep power there will be no legislation. On the other hand the "pro-lifers" (I really don't like the term) have another agenda. They want to plant a poison pill so that the definition of "human beings" is approved by parliament to their liking which I believe is the moment a sperm and egg unite. *If parliament was so irresponsible to agree with the definition,* how would the courts act if challenged on the subject? Canada has a been through this already and a majority of Canadians do not want reproductive rights re-opened.
> 
> Mulclair will drive the wedge in on this. Rae has members who are pro-life. This does not play well for the ruling government. It plays very well for Mulclair.
> 
> Why are we wasting valuable time on this. There are so many other pressing issues. This could have been shut down.


jimbo have you read M-312, this is not even possible to be voted on at this point as it is not the proposition:



> M-312 — February 6, 2012 — Mr. Woodworth (Kitchener Centre) —That a special committee of the House be appointed and directed to review the declaration in Subsection 223(1) of the Criminal Code which states that a child becomes a human being only at the moment of complete birth and to answer the questions hereinafter set forth;
> 
> that the membership of the special committee consist of 12 members which shall include seven members from the government party, four members from the Official Opposition and one member from the Liberal Party, provided that the Chair shall be from the government party; that the members to serve on the said committee be appointed by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and the membership report of the special committee be presented to the House no later than 20 sitting days after the adoption of this motion;
> 
> that substitutions to the membership of the special committee be allowed, if required, in the manner provided by Standing Order 114(2);
> 
> that the special committee have all the powers of a Standing Committee as provided in the Standing Orders; and
> 
> that the special committee present its final report to the House of Commons within 10 months after the adoption of this motion with answers to the following questions,
> 
> (i) what medical evidence exists to demonstrate that a child is or is not a human being before the moment of complete birth, (ii) is the preponderance of medical evidence consistent with the declaration in Subsection 223(1) that a child is only a human being at the moment of complete birth, (iii) what are the legal impact and consequences of Subsection 223(1) on the fundamental human rights of a child before the moment of complete birth, (iv) what are the options available to Parliament in the exercise of its legislative authority in accordance with the Constitution and decisions of the Supreme Court to affirm, amend, or replace Subsection 223(1).


So what is being proposed is to form a Committee to study the issue and review the declaration in Subsection 223(1) of the Criminal Code which states that a child becomes a human being only at the moment of complete birth. 

There will be no agreeing or disagreeing with the Subsection of the law at this time as it is not what is being proposed. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Why should it have been shut down? An MP *has the right* to raise whatever issue they think is important to them and their constituents in a PMB or PMM. You on the one hand criticize Harper for supposedly be being so top down and then criticize him for not being dictatorial enough. Which way do you want it to be?

Also if you are so sure of your position why would you not be in support of talking about it?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yep read it yesterday. Waste of time or what?

Also what occurred to me is- are the good people of Kitchener Centre are in favour of this garbage?


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> It's funny you raise what is going on in the US because I don't follow US politics all that closely and I don't know that many Canadians follow it all that closely either, especially when they don't follow the politics in their own backyard very closely. (I don't even know what you are referring to about what is going on in the US re:abortion).
> 
> So I personally don't see the worry in that but I suppose I could be wrong, also I think in general in Canada we are much more in favor of a woman's right to choose and less divided than they are in the US on the subject of abortion.


In Canada, yes, we are much more in favour of the right to choose. And while I don't follow US politics that closely (I've mostly been municipally-focused) there's has been some tremendously scary stuff that has passed and proposed in the US.... In Virginia now, every woman who chooses abortion must now have a medically unnecessary ultrasound 24 hours ahead of time to see the fetus... the thinking being that it will guilt someone into choosing differently.

This particular PMB bears resemblance to a bill currently working through Oklahoma's legislature to declare that 'personhood' starts a conception. 

Sure, we're not Oklahoma, but there's so much similarity where this is heading that I can't help but wonder how what's going on over there influences over here.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Yep read it yesterday. Waste of time or what?
> 
> Also what occurred to me is- are the good people of Kitchener Centre are in favour of this garbage?


So then why did you say what you said in your previous post, if you read it you should have known that Parliament is not going to be voting on when a child becomes a human being.

As for waste of time, I guess you could say that about all Motions as none of them are binding on the government and I guess you could say that about any Opposition take note debate for that matter.

Why the need to add the word garbage... let's just keep things going in the civil manner we have... things have been improving around here...


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> So then why did you say what you said in your previous post, if you read it you should have known that Parliament is not going to be voting on when a child becomes a human being.
> 
> As for waste of time, I guess you could say that about all Motions as none of them are binding on the government and I guess you could say that about any Opposition take note debate for that matter.


I said the agenda of the "pro lifers" is to define "human being".

No I do not think that all motions are a waste of time. This one is though.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Sonal said:


> In Canada, yes, we are much more in favour of the right to choose. And while I don't follow US politics that closely (I've mostly been municipally-focused) there's has been some tremendously scary stuff that has passed and proposed in the US.... In Virginia now, every woman who chooses abortion must now have a medically unnecessary ultrasound 24 hours ahead of time to see the fetus... the thinking being that it will guilt someone into choosing differently.
> 
> This particular PMB bears resemblance to a bill currently working through Oklahoma's legislature to declare that 'personhood' starts a conception.
> 
> Sure, we're not Oklahoma, but there's so much similarity where this is heading that I can't help but wonder how what's going on over there influences over here.


Not to mention the really ugly billboards you are confronted with along the highways in the Carolina's & Florida, prominently displaying fetuses with some outrageous biblical slogan.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> I said the agenda of the "pro lifers" is to define "human being".
> 
> No I do not think that all motions are a waste of time. This one is though.


This is what I referring to, it seemed like you didn't know what Parlaiment would be voting on...



> They want to plant a poison pill so that the definition of "human beings" is approved by parliament to their liking which I believe is the moment a sperm and egg unite. *If parliament was so irresponsible to agree with the definition*, how would the courts act if challenged on the subject?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Not to mention the *really ugly billboards you are confronted with along the highways in the Carolina's & Florida, prominently displaying fetuses with some outrageous biblical slogan.*


Do you see such things here in Canada?


----------



## i-rui

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/po...ccepted-500k-foreign-funding-oil-billionaires

i thought this was interesting. In the past i've seen a couple of people post links to stuff from the Fraser institute. I always knew they were partisan (they had Mike Harris as a symbolic figurehead), but didn't know they were on the take from the Koch Brothers.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Do you see such things here in Canada?


Yes, I see them on placards when these people protest outside of medical facilities.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> http://www.vancouverobserver.com/po...ccepted-500k-foreign-funding-oil-billionaires
> 
> i thought this was interesting. In the past i've seen a couple of people post links to stuff from the Fraser institute. I always knew they were partisan (they had Mike Harris as a symbolic figure), but didn't know they were on the take from the Koch Brothers,


As partisan as The Centre for Policy Alterrnatives. What's your point?


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> This is what I referring to, it seemed like you didn't know what Parlaiment would be voting on...


i) what medical evidence exists to demonstrate that a child is or is not a human being before the moment of complete birth, (ii) is the preponderance of medical evidence consistent with the declaration in Subsection 223(1) that a child is only a human being at the moment of complete birth, (iii) what are the legal impact and consequences of Subsection 223(1) on the fundamental human rights of a child before the moment of complete birth, (iv) what are the options available to Parliament in the exercise of its legislative authority in accordance with the Constitution and decisions of the Supreme Court to affirm, amend, or replace Subsection 223(1).

What can I say?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> As partisan as The Centre for Policy Alterrnatives. What's your point?


from the article :



> While the federal government and pro-oil lobbyists have taken aim at environmental charities for allegedly violating the Canadian Revenue Agency’s legal limits for “political activity”, the Fraser Institute and its charitable status remain unquestioned. And as the Koch Foundation’s tax data shows, they’ve received a significant amount of “foreign funding” to help influence Canadian policy—which is precisely what environmental groups have been accused of doing.


----------



## Sonal

jimbotelecom said:


> Yes, I see them on placards when these people protest outside of medical facilities.





screature said:


> Do you see such things here in Canada?


Yes, I also see them on placards of people protesting. Drove by such a group a couple of weeks ago. 

And when I went to school in KW, I saw them very frequently, though that was a while ago. 

I remember that in our university papers we would have advertisements for the "Pregnancy Crisis Centre". Sounds like a great place to go if you were a university student who got unexpectedly knocked up and needed some help figuring out what to do about it, but what they didn't tell you (though you could find this out if you did some digging into it) was that they were a pro-life organization. Deceptive, IMO.

So perhaps it's not so surprising that this came out of KW....


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature, where are you going with this? It's great that you point out the procedural rules. It's great that you think that if any of this turns into legislation the current government is doomed. 

Bottom line - there's a solid constituency of Canadians, myself included, who are concerned with why this is even being discussed.

Where are you on the issue?


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Bottom line - there's a solid constituency of Canadians, myself included, who are concerned with why this is even being discussed.


Why would you expect this would never be discussed again? Did you think that all these matters are permanently settled?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> from the article :


I see. I agree that they should all be able to take as much foreign money as they want.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Why would you expect this would never be discussed again? Did you think that all these matters are permanently settled?


No, not at all, not when a minority elected majority with a significant social conservative base gets elected.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Sonal said:


> Yes, I also see them on placards of people protesting. Drove by such a group a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> And when I went to school in KW, I saw them very frequently, though that was a while ago.
> 
> I remember that in our university papers we would have advertisements for the "Pregnancy Crisis Centre". Sounds like a great place to go if you were a university student who got unexpectedly knocked up and needed some help figuring out what to do about it, but what they didn't tell you (though you could find this out if you did some digging into it) was that they were a pro-life organization. Deceptive, IMO.
> 
> So perhaps it's not so surprising that this came out of KW....


This reminds me of an ex-girlfriend who became pregnant during her university years. She went through a period of denial and then counselling from such a group and she brought the child into the world and put her/him up for adoption. She lived with a phobia, when I knew her, that the child would find her years later. There is nothing pleasant either way.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> This reminds me of an ex-girlfriend who became pregnant during her university years. She went through a period of denial and then counselling from such a group and she brought the child into the world and put her/him up for adoption. She lived with a phobia, when I knew her, that the child would find her years later. There is nothing pleasant either way.


Good on your girlfriend!


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> i) what medical evidence exists to demonstrate that a child is or is not a human being before the moment of complete birth, (ii) is the preponderance of medical evidence consistent with the declaration in Subsection 223(1) that a child is only a human being at the moment of complete birth, (iii) what are the legal impact and consequences of Subsection 223(1) on the fundamental human rights of a child before the moment of complete birth, (iv) what are the options available to Parliament in the exercise of its legislative authority in accordance with the Constitution and decisions of the Supreme Court to affirm, amend, or replace Subsection 223(1).
> 
> What can I say?


Seems you're dodging answering the question. Parliament will only be be voting to form a committee not on the definition as your statement seemed to indicate.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> screature, where are you going with this? It's great that you point out the procedural rules. It's great that you think that if any of this turns into legislation the current government is doomed.
> 
> Bottom line - there's a solid constituency of Canadians, myself included, who are concerned with why this is even being discussed.
> 
> Where are you on the issue?


I have no problem with discussing any issue, it is called democracy. 

I think a woman has the right to choose and abortion is a matter between a woman and her doctor.

I also think that with all we know there is no doubt that a fetus is a human being.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Seems you're dodging answering the question. Parliament will only be be voting to form a committee not on the definition as your statement seemed to indicate.


What can I say?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Yes, I see them on placards when these people protest outside of medical facilities.





Sonal said:


> Yes, I also see them on placards of people protesting. Drove by such a group a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> And when I went to school in KW, I saw them very frequently, though that was a while ago.
> 
> I remember that in our university papers we would have advertisements for the "Pregnancy Crisis Centre". Sounds like a great place to go if you were a university student who got unexpectedly knocked up and needed some help figuring out what to do about it, but what they didn't tell you (though you could find this out if you did some digging into it) was that they were a pro-life organization. Deceptive, IMO.
> 
> So perhaps it's not so surprising that this came out of KW....


I have seen people with the placards occasionally in front of the Morgentaler Clinic on Bank street. I was asking about the large Billboards you saw in the southern US.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> What can I say?


You were wrong.


----------



## screature

From Question Period today:



> *Mr. Thomas Mulcair (Leader of the Opposition, NDP)*: Mr. Speaker, so let us speak about Reform party policy. We know the Prime Minister likes to control his message. He would not let his Conservatives do something that he did not agree with.
> 
> Could the Prime Minister tell Canadians why he allowed his Conservative MPs to reopen the debate on abortion?
> 
> *Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC)*: Mr. Speaker, every private member can table bills and motions in the House. Party leaders do not have any control over that. This particular motion was deemed votable by an all party committee of the House. I think that was unfortunate. In my case, I will be voting against the motion.


----------



## CubaMark

*Bev Oda pays up for controversial car rental*



> International Cooperation Minister Bev Oda is now reimbursing taxpayers for the car and driver she hired during a trip abroad after saying earlier in the week that she had paid back all of the "inappropriate costs."





> Oda also billed taxpayers for hiring a luxury car and driver, at a cost of about $1,000 per day, to transport her the two kilometres from the Savoy to the conference.


(CBC)


----------



## SINC

> Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, every private member can table bills and motions in the House. Party leaders do not have any control over that. This particular motion was deemed votable by an all party committee of the House. I think that was unfortunate. In my case, I will be voting against the motion.


So much for trying to make an issue of the motion. Shot down like a clay pigeon. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> So much for trying to make an issue of the motion. Shot down like a clay pigeon. :clap:


I thought Mulclair was supposed to be hot stuff on the debating floor.


----------



## i-rui

if Harper *really* wanted to quash the abortion debate he would expel Woodworth from the Conservative caucus for bringing it up. Seems pretty straight forward. After all, he expelled Helena Guergis for no reason whatsoever.

Most likely he doesn't mind the PMM being brought up because :
a) it pleases the extreme right of his supporters
b) it's a distraction and reprieve from the rest of the sh*tstorm that his government has been responsible for since getting their majority.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> if Harper *really wanted to quash the abortion debate he would expel Woodworth from the Conservative caucus for bringing it up. Seems pretty straight forward.* After all, he expelled Helena Guergis for no reason whatsoever.
> 
> Most likely he doesn't mind the PMM being brought up because :
> a) it pleases the extreme right of his supporters
> b) it's a distraction and reprieve from the rest of the sh*tstorm that his government has been responsible for since getting their majority.


Not at all. It just shows he respects the right of all MPs to bring forward PMBs and PMMs as is their Parliamentary right as MPs. It doesn't mean he has to support them. What this goes to show is that he is not the absolute control freak that the media and Opposition choose to portray him as being... 

I know this doesn't bode well for those people who would want to paint him in such light... too bad for them.

He could not expel Woodworth for bringing forward such a PMM as it is Woodworth's right and the submission of PMBs and PMMs are not whipped nor should be whipped (except for those who are opposed to the notion of the freedom and independence of Private Members Business and the very reason why it exists in our Parliamentary system) and has absolutely no correlation to the Guergis situation whatsoever.

Castigate Harper for a perceived notion of *too much* top down control and then castigate him, when it suits, for exercising *not enough* top down control... Sorry but this is contradictory and is reminiscent of Marie Antoinette....


----------



## i-rui

Harper & the Conservative party campaigned on *not* wanting to bring up the abortion debate in the last election. Of course Woodworth has the right to propose whatever PMM *he* wants, but if Harper and the party wants to keep their campaign promise he shouldn't be doing it as a conservative.

As i pointed out above, the truth is Harper doesn't mind if he does, even if it doesn't mean anything meaningful happens on that front regarding the law in the near future (during the next 3 years) he has thrown that segment of his supporters a bone that they can chew on.

What if a Conservative MP proposed a PMM or PMB that supported a far left policy? How fast would they be expelled from the party then? Instantly IMO.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> if Harper *really* wanted to quash the abortion debate he would expel Woodworth from the Conservative caucus for bringing it up. Seems pretty straight forward. After all, he expelled Helena Guergis for no reason whatsoever.
> 
> Most likely he doesn't mind the PMM being brought up because :
> a) it pleases the extreme right of his supporters
> b) it's a distraction and reprieve from the rest of the sh*tstorm that his government has been responsible for since getting their majority.


+1

<RANT>Mr. Mayor I for one would like to see positive feed back in the forums in the form of concurrence button, thumbs up button or the return of the like button +1 is not sufficient<ENDRANT>


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> What if a Conservative MP proposed a PMM or PMB that supported a far left policy? How fast would they be expelled from the party then? Instantly IMO.


This is pure conjecture. Screature has pretty much nailed it. You'd be calling Harper a control freak--or is he only a control freak if he does stuff you don't like?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Harper & the Conservative party campaigned on *not* wanting to bring up the abortion debate in the last election. Of course Woodworth has the right to propose whatever PMM *he* wants, but if Harper and the party wants to keep their campaign promise he shouldn't be doing it as a conservative.
> 
> *As i pointed out above, the truth is Harper doesn't mind if he does*, even if it doesn't mean anything meaningful happens on that front regarding the law in the near future (during the next 3 years) he has thrown that segment of his supporters a bone that they can chew on.
> 
> *What if a Conservative MP proposed a PMM or PMB that supported a far left policy? How fast would they be expelled from the party then? Instantly IMO.*


This is a completely baseless assumption on your part... clearly he does mind if he has stated publicly he will not vote in favour of the motion... 

Once again, MPs are free to propose anything they choose in a PMB or PMM... to try and imagine what would would happen if a Conservative MP put forward a far left policy is a moot and quite frankly a rather ridiculous scenario as if that was the case they would not be a MP for the Conservatives now would they so your argument/scenario has no basis in reality.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> You'd be calling Harper a control freak--or is he only a control freak if he does stuff you don't like?


Harper is a control freak. it's well documented. Scientists aren't allowed to freely speak to the media. Nuclear watchdogs are fired when they don't follow the Governments orders. The press only getting to ask 5 questions a day during the campaign. An unprecedented record of being a control freak.

The only reason Woodworth is proposing this PMM is because Harper wants him to (or at the very least doesn't mind).


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Harper is a control freak. it's well documented. Scientists aren't allowed to freely speak to the media. Nuclear watchdogs are fired when they don't follow the Governments orders. The press only getting to ask 5 questions a day during the campaign. An unprecedented record of being a control freak.
> 
> *The only reason Woodworth is proposing this PMM is because Harper wants him to (or at the very least doesn't mind)*.


You are quite simply wrong in your assumptions IMO.


----------



## Macfury

I recall Liberal MPs who would freely speak out on issues that Chretien stated he didn't support--however, they remained members of the Liberal Party for the immediate future and there were no conspiracy theories that he encouraged them to speak out because he secretly liked it.


----------



## MacDoc

*Thud
*
Harper’s brand hits ‘new low’ amid robo-call, F-35 scandals: poll - The Globe and Mail

Seems not a few Canadians are disillusioned with Harper....it's about time. Of course close to 60% were in the last election anyways.


----------



## bryanc

I'm probably skirting tinfoil hat territory, but I suspect the abortion issue is a distractor (which happily also curries favour with the socially conservative base) from less obvious stuff... anyone else notice that the latest budget eliminated the CISIS oversight committee?
Combine that with C-30 and we've got a proper little secret police functioning under Harper's control.

{edit to add: Hadn't seen this, but it seems apropos to this train of thought, given that the US is on this same slippery slope.}


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I'm probably skirting tinfoil hat territory, but I suspect the abortion issue is a distractor (which happily also curries favour with the socially conservative base) from less obvious stuff... anyone else notice that the latest budget eliminated the CISIS oversight committee?
> Combine that with C-30 and we've got a proper little secret police functioning under Harper's control.


Yes, on the tinfoil.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> I'm probably skirting tinfoil hat territory, but I suspect the abortion issue is a distractor (which happily also curries favour with the socially conservative base) from less obvious stuff... anyone else notice that the latest budget eliminated the CISIS oversight committee?
> Combine that with C-30 and we've got a proper little secret police functioning under Harper's control.
> 
> {edit to add: Hadn't seen this, but it seems apropos to this train of thought, given that the US is on this same slippery slope.}


I too suspect this is being used as a diversionary tactic. Bills C-11 and C-30 are both crying out for more attention.

OTOH I do doubt that Chopper MacKay is in any danger of going down for the count. Bev Oda is probably considered expendable. A chance for OGL to prove his government will do the responsible thing should the pressure reach extreme levels. 

A side thought on Canada's own BO. If the CRA were to find these sort of discrepancies on your or my tax returns, I am pretty sure we would be in for a full blown forensic audit. Perhaps Ms. Oda's entire expense history should be given a similar thorough review.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I too suspect this is being used as a diversionary tactic. Bills C-11 and C-30 are both crying out for more attention.
> 
> OTOH I do doubt that Chopper MacKay is in any danger of going down for the count. Bev Oda is probably considered expendable. A chance for OGL to prove his government will do the responsible thing should the pressure reach extreme levels.
> 
> A side thought on Canada's own BO. If the CRA were to find these sort of discrepancies on your or my tax returns, I am pretty sure we would be in for a full blown forensic audit. Perhaps Ms. Oda's entire expense history should be given a similar thorough review.





bryanc said:


> I'm probably skirting tinfoil hat territory, but I suspect the abortion issue is a distractor (which happily also curries favour with the socially conservative base) from less obvious stuff... anyone else notice that the latest budget eliminated the CISIS oversight committee?
> Combine that with C-30 and we've got a proper little secret police functioning under Harper's control.
> 
> {edit to add: Hadn't seen this, but it seems apropos to this train of thought, given that the US is on this same slippery slope.}


Sigh... I will say it again. 

The timing of when M-312 would come before the House was literally "the luck of the draw" I explained this earlier in the thread. There could be no coordinated plan of distraction as the timing of when Mr. Woodworth's Motion would come before the House was completely beyond the control of the Government.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Sigh... I will say it again.
> 
> The timing of when M-312 would come before the House was literally "the luck of the draw" I explained this earlier in the thread. There could be no coordinated plan of distraction as the timing of when Mr. Woodworth's Motion would come before the House was completely beyond the control of the Government.


To be clear I am just saying OGL is simply taking advantage of it, not that he manipulated it into play.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> To be clear I am just saying OGL is simply taking advantage of it, not that he manipulated it into play.


OK then so explain to me how the PM (not OGL, there is no post of OGL in this country) is taking advantage of it. And BTW you did say "I too suspect this is being used as a *diversionary tactic*". Tactics by their very nature imply manipulation as it is part and parcel of the concept.

tac·tic (tktk)
n.
An expedient for achieving a goal; a maneuver.

tac·tic (Noun)
An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.


----------



## bryanc

This is like a fighter jet dropping chaff to confuse guided missiles. It's a smoke bomb tactic; it doesn't have to be very precise, but when you see you've got cover, you use it to advance your agenda.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> This is like a fighter jet dropping chaff to confuse guided missiles. It's a smoke bomb tactic; it doesn't have to be very precise, but when you see you've got cover, you use it to advance your agenda.


No it is not... 

Mr. Harper is not pleased
Macleans



> Let us connect the dots. I think it’s been a damned interesting week.
> 
> It ends, or nearly, with the Chief Government Whip and designated general-purpose government hardass Gordon O’Connor shutting down a Conservative private member’s motion on abortion, or something distantly related to a motion about the circumstances within which a debate about abortion might arise (readers are invited to parse the fine print themselves.) Earlier the prime minister had said it was “unfortunate” that a parliamentary committee even deemed the thing votable, but it was, and it proceeds. But when the Chief Government Whip speaks in specific detail about his problems with a motion, the word should be considered to be out: the government has a strong preference that members not support it.


The Commons: A debate about a debate about abortion
Macleans



> Here then it was Gordon O’Connor’s turn. The chief government whip stood with his speech laid out on a lectern perched on a desktop infront of him. In short order and in his grumbly way, he not only expressed his opposition to the motion, but questioned its fundamentals. Section 223(1) applied to laws on homicide and was not a medical test, he said. He appealed to individual freedom in a democratic society and ventured that abortion would always be part of society, that it was part of the human condition. He lamented those who would turn back the clock. “Society has moved on,” he said nearer the end of his remarks.


This is one MP's agenda not the government's, as a Private Member he is entitled to his wacky view of things just as the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists are entitled theirs I suppose.


----------



## Ottawaman

The assertion that a back bencher could put forward this motion with out having permission from the office of the PMO is ludicrous. Calculated political theatre. Why now is the interesting question.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> The assertion that a back bencher could put forward this motion with out having permission from the office of the PMO is ludicrous. Calculated political theatre. Why now is the interesting question.


Backbenchers don't need permission to do this. Your assertion that they require permission is off kilter.


----------



## Ottawaman

Macfury said:


> Backbenchers don't need permission to do this. Your assertion that they require permission is off kilter.


Thanks for pointing out yet another convention that Harper has disregarded.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> Thanks for pointing out yet another convention that Harper has disregarded.


Why don't you show use reference to the standing precedent for asking permission of the Prime Minister before raising a PMB or PMM--just so we can understand your point better.


----------



## Ottawaman

Macfury said:


> Why don't you show use reference to the standing precedent for asking permission of the Prime Minister before raising a PMB or PMM--just so we can understand your point better.


Private members bills and Private members motions from the CPC are also political theatre under a regime that has centralized the political authority in the office of the PMO.
Therefore, I can not answer your question.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman said:


> Private members bills and Private members motions from the CPC are also political theatre under a regime that has centralized the political authority in the office of the PMO.
> Therefore, I can not answer your question.


If it is precedent that Stephen Harper has violated, then an example of how that precedent worked in the Liberal Party is also acceptable.


----------



## Ottawaman

Macfury said:


> If it is precedent that Stephen Harper has violated, then an example of how that precedent worked in the Liberal Party is also acceptable.


Perhaps, but that isn't germane to this conversation.


----------



## MacDoc

Still blaming the Liberals - and his honour wonders why I respond in a pejorative manner.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Still blaming the Liberals - and his honour wonders why I respond in a pejorative manner.


MacDoc, your response here is one of the problems. You clearly haven't read the post at all, since there is no criticism of the Liberals expressed or implied--yet you're already bristling at the mention of the word "Liberal," using it as fuel to respond in a pejorative manner.


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> *The assertion that a back bencher could put forward this motion with out having permission from the office of the PMO is ludicrous. Calculated political theatre.* Why now is the interesting question.





Ottawaman said:


> Private members bills and Private members motions from the CPC are also political theatre under a regime that has centralized the political authority in the office of the PMO.
> Therefore, I can not answer your question.


It absolutely is not. *Any* MP can put forward any PMB or PMM they chose this is why they exist so that if the government is not pursuing something that a Private Member wishes to pursue they can do it on their own. This is how our Parliament works. 

Seeing as how you and others seem to not believe me look it up and educate yourselves.

Here in another case that illustrates what I have been saying:

Ruby Dhalla a Liberal MP introduced a highly controversial PMB  Bill C-428 An Act to amend the Old Age Security Act (residency requirement) in the 2nd Session, 40th Parliament, in 2009. (The Bill died on the Order Paper because of last springs election.) 

It proposed to amend the Old Age Security Act to reduce from ten years to three years the residency requirement for entitlement to a monthly pension. The Bill was not supported by her own Caucus or even the leader at the time Michael Ignatieff primarily because it would be too costly and non-immigrant seniors across the country were outraged by the idea that a senior who was only in the country for three years would be eligible for OAS.

Here are a couple of references:

Liberal Pension Critic to vote against Bill C-428

Setting the Record Straight: Bill C-428 No Longer Exists
From Joyce Murray's website (Liberal)



> Here are the facts:
> 
> 1. Former Liberal MP Ruby Dhalla introduced Private Member’s Bill C-428 to reduce old age security wait times for immigrants from certain countries (to be consistent with existing wait times for immigrants from other countries). This Bill never got beyond First Reading. There was never a single vote on it.
> 
> 2. The Bill died on the Order Paper when the 40th Parliament was dissolved and the recent federal election was called.
> 
> 3. Bill C-428 and its proposal no longer exist. It will not be coming forward for Second Reading.
> 
> 4. *Introducing a Private Member’s Bill in an effort to address the concerns of constituents is the right and responsibility of individual Members of Parliament, and these Bills sometimes do not reflect Party policy.*


She did not have to seek the permission of her Leader to introduce the Bill quite obviously as if she did she would have been told it was a bad idea. This is the way PMBs and our Parliamentary system works. PMBs are not vetted by the leaders of their respective parties and they are not asked or demanded to be withdrawn even when the leader or Caucus do not support them.

So all you who wish to say otherwise are simply expressing uniformed opinions that are baseless in fact.


----------



## eMacMan

From an article Don posted in the SAP. Now if we could just convince the vultures in Ottawa.



> The world belongs to its people, not political parties, the Dalai Lama said at a press conference Friday in Ottawa, where he is attending an international conference on Tibet.
> 
> 
> As he motioned to the many MPs in attendance, he said the same applies to countries, whether it's Tibet or Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> "I always believe the world belongs to humanity," he said. "Canada belongs to the Canadian people, not your party or other parties."
> 
> Read more: Dalai Lama: Canada doesn't belong to political parties | CTV News
> ​


FWIW The Dalai Lama is one of the very few political or religious leaders, who over a long period of time has consistently earned my respect.


----------



## ehMax

MacDoc said:


> Still blaming the Liberals - and his honour wonders why I respond in a pejorative manner.


It's ok to express contempt or disapproval... just direct it purely to the issues and concepts, rather than directed towards those expressing the issues and concepts.


----------



## SINC

screature, how does this overview of the origin of motion 312 stand up?

How Motion 312 got to the floor of the Commons - Dawg's Blawg (Blog)


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> She did not have to seek the permission of her Leader to introduce the Bill quite obviously as if she did she would have been told it was a bad idea. This is the way PMBs and our Parliamentary system works. PMBs are not vetted by the leaders of their respective parties and they are not asked or demanded to be withdrawn even when the leader or Caucus do not support them.
> 
> So all you who wish to say otherwise are simply expressing uniformed opinions that are baseless in fact.


The difference here (and it is a substantial one) is that the Liberal Party didn't campaign specifically on that issue during the prior election.

I think we all know that once an MP is elected they can do whatever they want during their term, including proposing bills, voting their conscience, and even crossing the floor.

the question remains, why is Woodworth still part of the Conservative caucus? He is directly violating an election promise by Harper and the Conservative party.

We all also know the answer - because a significant part of the conservative base strongly believe in reopening this issue, and Harper doesn't want to alienate that support by excising it from his party. By allowing this fringe element to exist in his party he can suck up their votes, and periodically throw them a bone in the form of these motions or outbursts from certain backbenchers.

In this way Harper can placate these supporters and keep them from splintering off into a socially conservative federal party (ala a Wild Rose national party).


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> screature, how does this overview of the origin of motion 312 stand up?
> 
> How Motion 312 got to the floor of the Commons - Dawg's Blawg (Blog)


This is mostly correct. A motion is deemed non-votable because it does not stand up the four criteria of votability:



> Criteria for Determining Non-votability
> 
> Since 1986, the Committee has based its determination of votable and now non-votable items on specific criteria, the list of which was occasionally modified throughout the years.[125] The most recent list of criteria to determine non-votability of bills and motions originating in the House of Commons is as follows:[126]
> 
> * bills and motions must not concern questions that are outside federal jurisdiction;
> 
> * bills and motions must not clearly violate the Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms;
> 
> * bills and motions must not concern questions that are substantially the same as ones already voted on by the House of Commons in the current session of Parliament, or as ones preceding them in the Order of Precedence; and
> 
> * bills and motions must not concern questions that are currently on the Order Paper or Notice Paper as items of government business.


However, what the blogger does not mention is that even if a motion or bill is deemed non-votable it still receives one hour of debate in the House but that is all that occurs, no vote. If it is determined to be votable it then receives two hours of debate and then is voted upon in the House of Commons.

Additionally there were two things at play in this meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. 

Whether or not the motion should be votable and whether or not the vote on it being made votable should be deferred to allow for greater time for greater study of the Tremblay v. Daigle case. 

This is the case that Philip Toone (NDP) felt was the reason the Bill should be deemed non-votable but Scott Reid (C) felt he was not familiar enough with the case to decide whether or not it truly was sufficient grounds for the motion to be deemed non-votable. Thus he moved for a deferral of the vote.

The vote on that motion for deferal was tied and so the Chair had to cast the determining vote and voted for the vote on the votability of the motion to go ahead, i.e. the chair voted against the motion for deferral. 

It seems the Chair regarded Mr. Dion's arguments to be strong enough to go ahead with the vote on the motions votability.



> Hon. Stéphane Dion:
> 
> That’s exactly my point.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> I am sorry, Mr. Toone, I share your outrage, but in this case the motion asks for the creation of a committee to examine a problem. Nothing comes before the right Parliament has to debate issues. Parliament is a forum for debate, by definition. I fail to see on what constitutional basis we could prevent the House of Commons from debating issues, even things we don’t like.
> 
> *This does not concern seeing whether Parliament can invalidate a court decision; nothing in the motion asks for that. It is asking Parliament to study, to create a committee, to examine an issue, to make a recommendation. I don’t see how we can oppose it.*


So the vote on the motions votability went ahead and the motion was deemed votable which clearly means that at least Stéphane Dion voted for it to be votable (it was not a recorded vote so we do not have any record of how Mr. Toone's voted but we can surmise that he voted against it due to his stated opposition against the motion being deemed votable). So the fact of the matter is that at least one Opposition member (Dion) voted in favour of Motion 312 to be made votable.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> The difference here (and it is a substantial one) is that the Liberal Party *didn't campaign specifically on that issue during the prior election*.
> 
> I think we all know that once an MP is elected they can do whatever they want during their term, including proposing bills, voting their conscience, and even crossing the floor.
> 
> *the question remains, why is Woodworth still part of the Conservative caucus? He is directly violating an election promise by Harper and the Conservative party.
> 
> We all also know the answer - because a significant part of the conservative base strongly believe in reopening this issue, and Harper doesn't want to alienate that support by excising it from his party. By allowing this fringe element to exist in his party he can suck up their votes, and periodically throw them a bone in the form of these motions or outbursts from certain backbenchers.*
> 
> In this way Harper can placate these supporters and keep them from splintering off into a socially conservative federal party (ala a Wild Rose national party).


Neither did the Conservatives. The PM answered direct questions from the media regarding whether or not the government would re-visit the abortion issue. He made it clear *the government would not*. There was no campaign just an answer to a question and additionally the government has remained true to its word, Mr. Woodworth is not the government he is not in Cabinet he is only a backbencher, a Private Member and was exercising his Private Members right.

Sorry i-rui but your bias is blinding you to the facts I have presented so I will tell you again... *any* MP is free to put forward a PMB or PMM of their choosing *even* if it goes against Party policy and *it is not* grounds for being expelled from Caucus. 

Clearly Mr. Woodworth felt that his constituency or the majority thereof or at least the majority of his EDA would be in favour of the motion and thus why he put it forward. 

He was acting as a Private Member as is his right and everything else you say is merely speculation and conjecture that I would argue is completely based on your bias against the CPC and the PM. What you say is completely unsupportable in fact or even in precedence so you can keep making these assertions all you like but it is pure commentary on your part not fact.

But by all means keep the spin going, that is your right. Just like customers who are always right, they even have the right to be wrong.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> The PM answered direct questions from the media regarding whether or not the government would re-visit the abortion issue. He made it clear *the government would not*. There was no campaign just an answer to a question and additionally the government has remained true to its word, Mr. Woodworth is not the government he is not in Cabinet he is only a backbencher, a Private Member and was exercising his Private Members right.
> 
> But by all means keep the spin going, that is your right. Just like customers who are always right, they even have the right to be wrong.


You might be one of the few people left in Canada who continues to take Stephen Harper at his word. 

i-rui's assertion is certainly not far fetched. In fact, it seems to be the popular opinion out there.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> You might be one of the few people left in Canada who continues to take Stephen Harper at his word.
> 
> i-rui's assertion is certainly not far fetched. In fact, it seems to be the popular opinion out there.


The evidence is clear. The PM does not support the motion, the Government Whip does not support the motion and is encouraging all MPs to not support the motion. 

It seems to be the popular opinion among those who do not understand Private Members Business, conspiracy theorists and those who wish to discredit the PM and the government. 

Based on the fact that at least 95% of Canadians have literally no idea how Private Members Business works alone, I can see how that could be the popular opinion... like I said the customer is always right, they even have the right to be wrong.


----------



## MacDoc

Good points but the optics for Harper could not have come at a worse time - he's in bad odour for a number of things with a crashing confidence level.

Harper’s brand hits ‘new low’ amid robo-call, F-35 scandals: poll - The Globe and Mail

Given his record of super tight control and press channelling- it just seems "odd".

Decent summary of the lot of them

Untrustworthy Tories, socialist NDP, bumbling Grits: Poll puts a pox on all - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Good points *but the optics for Harper could not have come at a worse time - he's in bad odour for a number of things with a crashing confidence level.*
> 
> Harper’s brand hits ‘new low’ amid robo-call, F-35 scandals: poll - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Given his record of super tight control and press channelling- it just seems "odd".
> 
> Decent summary of the lot of them
> 
> Untrustworthy Tories, socialist NDP, bumbling Grits: Poll puts a pox on all - The Globe and Mail


Agreed and to me points to the fact that this was not a "tactic" on the part of Harper or the government as he would have been most happy if Mr. Woodworth had never moved the motion at all.


----------



## mrjimmy

MacDoc said:


> Good points but the optics for Harper could not have come at a worse time - he's in bad odour for a number of things with a crashing confidence level.


I think Harper could care less about optics and odours. He has a job to do and three more years to do it. Something about not recognizing Canada when he's through with it...


----------



## Sonal

MacDoc said:


> Given his record of super tight control and press channelling- it just seems "odd".


Control is a difficult thing to maintain. Perhaps under a minority government more MPs were willing to accept control in order to keep issues from spiralling out of control and giving the opposition a good time to force an election.. 

But 5 years of tight control coupled with sitting comfortably in a majority position, it stands to reason that it's a lot harder to keep everyone reined in.


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> You might be one of the few people left in Canada who continues to take Stephen Harper at his word.
> 
> i-rui's assertion is certainly not far fetched. In fact, it seems to be the popular opinion out there.





screature said:


> The evidence is clear. The PM does not support the motion, the Government Whip does not support the motion and is encouraging all MPs to not support the motion.
> 
> It seems to be the popular opinion among those who do not understand Private Members Business, conspiracy theorists and those who wish to discredit the PM and the government.
> 
> Based on the fact that at least 95% of Canadians have literally no idea how Private Members Business works alone, I can see how that could be the popular opinion... like I said the customer is always right, they even have the right to be wrong.





mrjimmy said:


> I think Harper could care less about optics and odours. He has a job to do and three more years to do it. Something about not recognizing Canada when he's through with it...


mrjimmy I have to concur with your thoughts, screature speaks to a reality, however as you point out, many believe, our OGL has given this matter more than tacit approval. The problem here is what I call plausible culpability on the reality of the Harper Government©®.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> mrjimmy I have to concur with your thoughts, screature speaks to a reality, however as you point out, many believe, our OGL has given this matter more than tacit approval. The problem here is what I call plausible culpability on the reality of the Harper Government©®.


We do not have an OGL in Canada. The correct 'adult' term is PM or Harper. I thought we had all agreed to stop such nonsense?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> We do not have an OGL in Canada. The correct 'adult' term is PM or Harper. I thought we had all agreed to stop such nonsense?


When?


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> We do not have an OGL in Canada. The correct 'adult' term is PM or Harper. I thought we had all agreed to stop such nonsense?


Naw the argument that we should respect the position if not the holder is mighty weak. Truthfully it has been a very long time since either Canada or the US has produced a top dog even remotely worthy of respect.

Nowadays we sadly accept that if their lips are moving the odds are really high they are lying. The bigger or more numerous the backdrop flag(s), the bigger the lies.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Neither did the Conservatives. The PM answered direct questions from the media regarding whether or not the government would re-visit the abortion issue. He made it clear *the government would not*. There was no campaign just an answer to a question and additionally the government has remained true to its word, Mr. Woodworth is not the government he is not in Cabinet he is only a backbencher, a Private Member and was exercising his Private Members right.


from the gazette :



> Fellow Conservative MP Maxime Bernier told reporters he also would be voting against Woodworth's motion because it violated the *party's election promise*.
> 
> Read more: Dissension in Tory, Liberal ranks over abortion debate


Now if you want to get into the semantics of the PMs initial response to the question, if anything it shows the insincerity of his election promise, as it writes into the statement a sort of "fine print" that foreshadows the events of a backbencher putting forth a PMM, showing that he was perfectly aware of what would inevitably happen under his watch.



screature said:


> Sorry i-rui but your bias is blinding you to the facts I have presented so I will tell you again... *any* MP is free to put forward a PMB or PMM of their choosing *even* if it goes against Party policy and *it is not* grounds for being expelled from Caucus.


this is the the type of thing that you do that rubs me the wrong way. You claim your facts hold more weight than facts i have put forth, and accuse me of ignoring facts that i don't dispute.

I have *NEVER* said that a MP couldn't bring forth a PMM. In fact, I would encourage they do it in many cases. My position was that a PMM that went against Party policy or an election promise should not be endorsed by the Party, and in certain cases the Party should dismiss a member that proposes something which goes against Party policy or election promises. I imagine a MP that proposed a national holiday for Hitler's birthday would quickly be disowned by any party.

Regarding "grounds for being expelled from Caucus", Harper has already exhibited that he doesn't need *ANY* reason to expel someone from caucus, as everyone saw in the Kafkaesque expulsion of Helena Guergis. 

Here are the facts that i have presented.

- Harper said he wouldn't open the abortion debate. to be exact : “But I think I’ve been very clear as party leader.… As long as I’m prime minister we are not reopening the abortion debate."

- Many of his MPs DO support reopening the abortion issue. Harper is aware of this.

- Harper expelled Helena Guergis for NO GIVEN REASON.

I am basing my commentary primarily on those 3 facts. which do you dispute?



screature said:


> everything else you say is merely speculation and conjecture that I would argue is completely based on your bias against the CPC and the PM. What you say is completely unsupportable in fact or even in precedence so you can keep making these assertions all you like but it is pure commentary on your part not fact.


i could say the same about your apologist views on almost everything the Conservatives do. Taking Stephen Harper and the conservatives at their word does not amount to "fact". While my commentary is my opinion (i would never pretend it is anything more) the facts that i have based my opinion on are correct and true.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> We do not have an OGL in Canada. The correct 'adult' term is PM or Harper. I thought we had all agreed to stop such nonsense?





BigDL said:


> When?


Here, that's when:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100097-reputation-system-discussion.html


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> We do not have an OGL in Canada. The correct 'adult' term is PM or Harper. I thought we had all agreed to stop such nonsense?


I certainly didn't agree. 

Is using OGL really so offensive you wish to silence it? Would you be so quick to censor a jab toward Ignatieff, Dion or Trudeau (young or old)? Perhaps you are using this as a platform to silence things that _you find offensive. _

I really hope ehMac isn't going to turn into that kind of place.


----------



## SINC

Fine to disagree, but perhaps you didn't notice I was not the first to complain about the term? I just echoed what was posted earlier.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Fine to disagree, but perhaps you didn't notice I was not the first to complain about the term? I just echoed what was posted earlier.


Does it matter who is first? 'Echoing' changes nothing as far as my comment. Censorship is censorship.


----------



## SINC

It's not about censorship, it's about proper terminology. To me using such terms show complete disrespect for the *office* and that is why I dislike such terms. the man is one thing, the office quite another.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> It's not about censorship, it's about proper terminology. To me using such terms show complete disrespect for the *office* and that is why I dislike such terms. the man is one thing, the office quite another.


It is about censorship. BigDL has the right to call the PM or the PMO anything he wishes as long as it fits within ehMac's terms of use.

It's about _your_ proper terminology, not BigDL's. You dislike it? That doesn't mean he shouldn't say it. That's the price we pay for freedom of expression.


----------



## bryanc

I respect the office as a function of who occupies it, what they do and what they say. As it happens, I have a great deal of respect for Harper; he's a skillful politician and masterful strategist. I just think he's also an evil-minded SOB and will destroy everything I value about Canada if he can.

Using sarcasm and irony to highlight his fascist and controlling nature is not out of bounds, as far as I'm concerned. If it's going over the line, I'm sure the mayor will let me know.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> We do not have an OGL in Canada. The correct 'adult' term is PM or Harper. I thought we had all agreed to stop such nonsense?





mrjimmy said:


> I certainly didn't agree.
> 
> Is using OGL really so offensive you wish to silence it? Would you be so quick to censor a jab toward Ignatieff, Dion or Trudeau (young or old)? Perhaps you are using this as a platform to silence things that _you find offensive. _
> 
> I really hope ehMac isn't going to turn into that kind of place.





SINC said:


> Here, that's when:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100097-reputation-system-discussion.html


So let me say first I believe that Sinc's objection in this instance was raised honestly and as a founded belief and a honest disagreement.

Secondly I will address the issues raised in the "Reputation System Discussion." I have read very carefully the posts of the Mayor. The Mayor as I understood him, was not trying to sanitize discussion but improve relations between members. I supported his plan in the thread and I still approve of the idea of positive and negative "brownie points" as a feedback mechanism. The caveat to this, is knowing your accuser as a part of, natural justice.

Now for the phrase Our Glorious Leader or OGL (with thanks to jimbo for popularizing this) is a neutral phrase. The words by are not derogatory on their own or in the phrase. The initials OGL, as I have turned my mind to the matter, can not be subverted to a derogatory meaning as far I can imagine. I stand to be corrected on this matter.

When I first turned my mind to Our Glorious Leader, I wanted a neutral phrase that could be applied to any political leader. Not like a derivation of a name of a particular politician. I also had in my mind that not only a Prime Minister but also the PMO was included in the phrase. Along with the PMO in my mind I also include by times the political party apparatus attached to or in conjunction with the PMO and Prime Minister.

Now some may not like the phrase well that's unfortunate but I do not think any reasonable person could find the phrase Our Glorious Leader on it's face offensive.

The meaning I intend when I use the phrase OGL is satirical as I intend OGL to be understood ironically. I know from past experience satire and irony are lost on some of our citizen.

Lastly to address the point raised by mrjimmy and the thread raised by Sinc with regard to the "Reputation System Discussion."

The concept that citizens post in a manner to stifle debate by insisting on sanitizing the discussion was not what our Mayor intended with his reputation system as I understand him. As I understand the Mayor he is fine with friendly discussion that might take place at a bus stop, park bench, coffee shop or at the mall.

We might hear the cons, the libs or the dippers. Those words in of themselves are neutral 
shortcuts. 

Some may be able to turn "the cons" or "the dippers" into double entendre and when used in a way meant to reflect in a negative manner upon our citizens here, is not allowed as I understand the Mayor. The libs I can't see where this could be used as a double entendre.

Perhaps the inclusion of not using the libs was a quid pro quo for no longer using cons as proposed by a poster in the "Reputation System Discussion" thread.

The Mayor sets what is or is not allowed to be posted at this site. The "Reputation System Discussion" thread, spoke of behaviour as apposed to language. The Mayor wants a friendly site. 

As I understand the Mayor, behaviours of bossing posters around, tell poster how and what they may post is offensive to the ideals of friendliness in these forums. Poster's harassing other citizens on any manner is not acceptable on this site and will earn negative attention from the Mayor as well. 

That's what I understood from what the Mayor intended in the "Reputation System Discussion" thread but I might be wrong. Who knows? Well I would suggest the Mayor well knows and might provide guidance on this discussion.

I will let you know I will not censor myself on the use of OGL or the common words of dipper, green, bloc, libs nor cons. If you feel that this violates the guidelines of the Mayor please report me. I will not take it personally. 

If you wish censor yourself as there maybe a consensus between a few members please feel free to do so with my blessing, for what that's worth.


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> It is about censorship. BigDL has the right to call the PM or the PMO anything he wishes as long as it fits within ehMac's terms of use.
> 
> It's about _your_ proper terminology, not BigDL's. You dislike it? That doesn't mean he shouldn't say it. That's the price we pay for freedom of expression.


I have no problem with that stand at all. So, I will continue to respect the office and refer to it as the PM, PMO or Harper. Others are free to do as they wish in regard to respect of the office.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> I have no problem with that stand at all. So, I will continue to respect the office and refer to it as the PM, PMO or Harper. Others are free to do as they wish in regard to respect of the office.


I can see no better way to respect the PMO than to demand that the occupant live up to the respect one holds for the office. There is no way that will ever happen until party supporters apply the same standards to their guy as they would to his political opponents.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> from the gazette :
> 
> Now if you want to get into the semantics of the PMs initial response to the question, if anything it shows the insincerity of his election promise, as it writes into the statement a sort of "fine print" that foreshadows the events of a backbencher putting forth a PMM, showing that he was perfectly aware of what would inevitably happen under his watch.


His promise was that the "government" would not reopen the abortion debate as I have already said they did not. Woodworth did as a Private Member, big difference. This journalist is clearly operating on the same suppositions and assumptions that you are and it does nothing to add any relevant facts to the situation.



i-rui said:


> this is the the type of thing that you do that rubs me the wrong way. You claim your facts hold more weight than facts i have put forth, and accuse me of ignoring facts that i don't dispute.


But you don't present facts (well one and it was a promise kept) you present speculation and commentary. 



i-rui said:


> I have *NEVER* said that a MP couldn't bring forth a PMM. In fact, I would encourage they do it in many cases. My position was that a PMM that went against Party policy or an election promise should not be endorsed by the Party, and in certain cases the Party should dismiss a member that proposes something which goes against Party policy or election promises. *I imagine a MP that proposed a national holiday for Hitler's birthday would quickly be disowned by any party.*


See this is an example an example of the type of thing that yo do that rubs me the wrong way. You propose something that *should* be done that has no basis in Parliamentary rule or procedure simply because you disagree with something, completely disregarding the rules, procedures, rights and practices of Parliament. Then you go on to cite an extreme scenario that has no basis in reality and would never happen because someone who held such values would not be in the party and would have not even have won the nomination of their EDA, just to try and support your argument.



i-rui said:


> Regarding "grounds for being expelled from Caucus", Harper has already exhibited that he doesn't need *ANY* reason to expel someone from caucus, as everyone saw in the Kafkaesque expulsion of Helena Guergis.


As I said before the Guergis situation has absolutely zero, notioning to do with M-312 being reasons for dismissal from Caucus, it is purely a red herring meant to distract from the actual relevant facts.



i-rui said:


> Here are the facts that i have presented.
> 
> - Harper said he wouldn't open the abortion debate. to be exact : “But I think I’ve been very clear as party leader.… As long as I’m prime minister we are not reopening the abortion debate."


Promise kept, clearly he meant as government, the government did not.



i-rui said:


> - Many of his MPs DO support reopening the abortion issue. Harper is aware of this.


If the Liberal Caucus were large enough there would be some MPs who would be interested in doing the same. So what? It is irrelevant to the rights of Private Members. 



i-rui said:


> - Harper expelled Helena Guergis for NO GIVEN REASON.


There was reason. She allowed her husband to make use of parliamentary resources to conduct private business and was under suspicion of being involved in illicit activities. 

Again this is a red herring on your part and has absolutely nothing to do Mr. Woodworth's legitimate right to put forward a PMB or PMM that goes against Party policy without being expelled from Caucus because of it.



i-rui said:


> I am basing my commentary primarily on those 3 facts. which do you dispute?


One but they are all irrelevant to in anyway providing a defence for your argument IMO.



i-rui said:


> i could say the same about your apologist views on almost everything the Conservatives do. Taking Stephen Harper and the conservatives at their word does not amount to "fact". While my commentary is my opinion (i would never pretend it is anything more) the facts that i have based my opinion on are correct and true.


My points are not apologist they point to the practices of Parliament and the right of Parliamentarians and the reality of how Private Members Business works, as well as known instances of where other parties and their Leader and Caucus do not support a Private Members initiative, go against Party policy and are not expelled from Caucus because of it. 

These are facts. Nothing I have stated is speculation at all, it is simply the way things are done within Parliament according to the rules of Parliament and the rights of Private Members.

Your arguments try and connect dots based on conjecture and hypothesis as opposed to known Parliamentary procedure, practice and a Private Members rights, that is why I find your speculation and suppositions very easy to dismiss as being fact.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> The evidence is clear. The PM does not support the motion, the Government Whip does not support the motion and is encouraging all MPs to not support the motion.
> 
> It seems to be the popular opinion among those who do not understand Private Members Business, conspiracy theorists and those who wish to discredit the PM and the government.
> 
> Based on the fact that at least 95% of Canadians have literally no idea how Private Members Business works alone, I can see how that could be the popular opinion... like I said the customer is always right, they even have the right to be wrong.





mrjimmy said:


> You might be one of the few people left in Canada who continues to take Stephen Harper at his word.
> 
> i-rui's assertion is certainly not far fetched. In fact, it seems to be the popular opinion out there.





mrjimmy said:


> I think Harper could care less about optics and odours. He has a job to do and three more years to do it. Something about not recognizing Canada when he's through with it...


*NOTE I am reposting this once more as the original post seemed to be side tracked.

mrjimmy I have to concur with your thoughts, screature speaks to a reality, however as you point out, many believe, OGL has given this matter more than tacit approval. The problem here is what I call plausible culpability on the reality of the Harper Government©®.


----------



## i-rui

Well it's obvious we're not going to agree on this as we disagree on the semantics of Harper's statement, and the meaning of a Conservative MP being part of "the government" (somehow he isn't in your definition). 

but i will point to this as an example of you being a conservative apologist (regarding Helena Guergis) :



screature said:


> There was reason. She allowed her husband to make use of parliamentary resources to conduct private business and was under suspicion of being involved in illicit activities.


first off she was expelled from Caucus (without any given reason) on April 9th 2010. The RCMP cleared her of any "illicit activities". More than a *year later* she was found guilty of breaching conflict-of-interest rules. All of this means she was expelled with no reason.

Now if being investigated for breaching conflict-of-interest rules is indeed punishable by being expelled from caucus, why was Christian Paradis allowed to still be a member (as well as a minister) while being investigated? Why is he still in Caucus (and a minister) *after he was found guilty* of breaching conflict-of-interest rules?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Well it's obvious we're not going to agree on this as we disagree on the semantics of Harper's statement, and the meaning of a Conservative MP being part of "*the government*" (somehow he isn't in your definition).
> 
> but i will point to this as an example of you being a conservative apologist (regarding Helena Guergis) :
> 
> 
> 
> first off she was expelled from Caucus (without any given reason) on April 9th 2010. The RCMP cleared her of any "illicit activities". More than a *year later* she was found guilty of breaching conflict-of-interest rules. All of this means she was expelled with no reason.
> 
> Now if being investigated for breaching conflict-of-interest rules is indeed punishable by being expelled from caucus, why was Christian Paradis allowed to still be a member (as well as a minister while being investigated? Why is he still in Caucus (and a minister) *after he was found guilty* of breaching conflict-of-interest rules?


A MP (backbencher) cannot draft legislation other than a PMB (a PMM such as M-312 is not even legislation it is only a Motion and is in no way binding on the government even if voted upon in the majority) as such Woodworth is acting as a Private Member. It is not a * government* Bill and is that of an individual and does not represent the government it represents that Private Member, it is not a matter of semantics it is a difference in substance. 

In fact it does not matter if a PMB is put forward by an Opposition MP or government MP, procedurally and in terms of Parliamentary rights and rules they are all treated equally because they are *not government *Bills.

Woodworth was not acting as a member of the *government* (i.e. Cabinet, as it is only members of Cabinet who can draft and introduce government Bills) he was acting as a Private Member and why the difference exists and there is such a distinction between Government Orders and Private Members Business.

I will not debate with you the irrelevant red herring case of Helena Guergis.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> A MP (backbencher) cannot draft legislation other than a PMB (a PMM such as M-312 is not even legislation it is only a Motion and is in no way binding on the government even if voted upon in the majority) as such Woodworth is acting as a Private Member. It is not a * government* Bill and is that of an individual and does not represent the government it represents that Private Member, it is not a matter of semantics it is a difference in substance.
> 
> In fact it does not matter if a PMB is put forward by an Opposition MP or government MP, procedurally and in terms of Parliamentary rights and rules they are all treated equally because they are *not government *Bills.
> 
> Woodworth was not acting as a member of the *government* (i.e. Cabinet, as it is only members of Cabinet who can draft and introduce government Bills) he was acting as a Private Member and why the difference exists and there is such a distinction between Government Orders and Private Members Business.


Thank you for this clarification of parliamentary procedure. I mean that sincerely, as I do think this is valuable and makes it very clear that Harper cannot be held culpable for "reopening the abortion debate."

But I think what you're missing is that, the very fact that parliamentary procedure protects him from being held accountable for this, combined with the his well-known propensity to rule his MPs with an iron fist, and his need for support from social conservatives, makes it very hard to believe this is not a calculated ploy. Either he's done something clever here, or he's benefiting from some good fortune. Either way, his claims of being displeased about the whole thing ring untrue.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Thank you for this clarification of parliamentary procedure. I mean that sincerely, as I do think this is valuable and makes it very clear that Harper cannot be held culpable for "reopening the abortion debate."
> 
> But I think what you're missing is that, the very fact that parliamentary procedure protects him from being held accountable for this, combined with the his well-known propensity to rule his MPs with an iron fist, and his need for support from social conservatives, makes it very hard to believe this is not a calculated ploy. Either he's done something clever here, or he's benefiting from some good fortune. Either way, his claims of being displeased about the whole thing ring untrue.


Believe what you want.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> A MP (backbencher) cannot draft legislation other than a PMB (a PMM such as M-312 is not even legislation it is only a Motion and is in no way binding on the government even if voted upon in the majority) as such Woodworth is acting as a Private Member. It is not a * government* Bill and is that of an individual and does not represent the government it represents that Private Member, it is not a matter of semantics it is a difference in substance.
> 
> In fact it does not matter if a PMB is put forward by an Opposition MP or government MP, procedurally and in terms of Parliamentary rights and rules they are all treated equally because they are *not government *Bills.
> 
> Woodworth was not acting as a member of the *government* (i.e. Cabinet, as it is only members of Cabinet who can draft and introduce government Bills) he was acting as a Private Member and why the difference exists and there is such a distinction between Government Orders and Private Members Business.
> 
> I will not debate with you the irrelevant red herring case of Helena Guergis.


but you're excluding the part of this PMM being put forth by a *CONSERVATIVE* MP. That is the whole point of the argument. The Government is *CONSERVATIVE*. Of course Woodworth has every right to submit whatever PMM/PMB he wants, but by allowing Woodworth to do it as a member of the Conservative Caucus, Harper *is* breaking his election promise.

And the Guergis issue is no less a red herring than the Ruby Dhalla PMB which you used to try and discredit my argument (that bill never contravened any Liberal election promise, and was only not supported after the Liberal MPs discussed it). To try and use that as a precedent to what Woodworth is doing here is a totally faulty comparison.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *NOTE I am reposting this once more as the original post seemed to be side tracked.
> 
> mrjimmy I have to concur with your thoughts, screature speaks to a reality, however as you point out, many believe, OGL has given this matter more than tacit approval. The problem here is what I call *plausible culpability* on the reality of the Harper Government©®.


Mens rea  refers to jurisprudence and as the situation has nothing to do jurisprudence the notion/concept/term is being misapplied.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> but you're excluding the part of this PMM being put forth by a *CONSERVATIVE* MP. That is the whole point of the argument. The Government is *CONSERVATIVE*.* Of course Woodworth has every right to submit whatever PMM/PMB he wants, but by allowing Woodworth to do it as a member of the Conservative Caucus, Harper is breaking his election promise.*
> 
> And the Guergis issue is no less a red herring than the Ruby Dhalla PMB which you used to try and discredit my argument (that bill never contravened any Liberal election promise, and was only not supported after the Liberal MPs discussed it). To try and use that as a precedent to what Woodworth is doing here is a totally faulty comparison.


Do you not see the self contradictory nature of your statement...? You are clearly wilfully disregarding the rules and rights of Parliament and Parliamentarians to justify your attempts at discrediting the government and the PM.

No the Dhalla Bill is a direct comparison relative to Private Members Business and how MPs are free to propose whatever they want despite the views of their Leader, Caucus and Party policy, not even close to be a red herring. Again Mr. Woodworth was not acting on the governments behalf he was acting on his own as his right as a Private Member.

Mr. Dion could have stopped M-312 form being made votable in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs but decided on principle that there was no legitimate reason to do so. Did he have some hidden agenda for doing so or was he simply applying the rules of Parliament as they are written despite his personal feelings regarding the Motion?

I am now done arguing this issue with you as you have no interests in fact and the rules of Parliament and Parliamentary Procedure.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Mr. Dion could have stopped M-312 form being made votable in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs but decided on principle that there was no legitimate reason to do so. Did he have some hidden agenda for doing so or was he simply appling the rules of Parliament as they are written despite his personal feelings regarding the Motion?


Talk about red herrings. This is a completely different subject. Dion didn't promise to not reopen the debate. Dion is not the leader of the Party who's member introduced the bill. His responsibility as a member of the committee is completely different than Harper's.

And you seem to be misrepresenting what i'm suggesting. Woodworth has every right to introduce any bill he wants. I'm not debating that. Harper even has the right to let it happen. I have no problem with debate in parliament.

But when he *does* let it happen, Harper (and his supporters) relinquish the defence that they didn't let it to happen. Clearly he could have done more to stop it (or to be exact, stop it happening at the behest of one of* his very own caucus*)


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Talk about red herrings. This is a completely different subject. Dion didn't promise to not reopen the debate. Dion is not the leader of the Party who's member introduced the bill. His responsibility as a member of the committee is completely different than Harper's.
> 
> And you seem to be misrepresenting what i'm suggesting. Woodworth has every right to introduce any bill he wants. I'm not debating that. Harper even has the right to let it happen. I have no problem with debate in parliament.
> 
> But when he *does* let it happen, Harper (and his supporters) relinquish the defence that they didn't let it to happen. Clearly he could have done more to stop it (or to be exact, stop it happening at the behest of one of* his very own caucus*)


No red herring merely pointing out that it is possible for people to operate on points of principle and the rules of Parliament even when they oppose a Motion or Bill, but apparently not in your mind when it comes to Mr. Harper.

Seems you want your cake and to it it too, Harper is a control freak... but seemingly not enough for you. I'm done.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> No red herring merely pointing out that it is *possible for people to operate on points of principle and the rules of Parliament *even when they oppose a Motion or Bill, but apparently not in your mind when it comes to Mr. Harper.


if that is the crux of your argument against what i'm saying then you're way off. i never suggested that Harper not "operate on points of principle and the rules of Parliament". never. not once.

I suggested that if he *really* wanted to quash the issue coming from his party he would expel those from his own party who bring it up, which has *nothing* to do with parliamentary procedure.



screature said:


> Seems you want your cake and to it it too, *Harper is a control freak... *but seemingly not enough for you. I'm done.


that's *exactly* it! Harper *is* a control freak. The fact that this played out the way it did shows that he *let* it happen.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Seems you want your cake and to it it too, Harper is a control freak... but seemingly not enough for you.


This is the crux of the argument, and it comes down to a matter of judgement... do you believe that Harper either did not know of, or was not able to prevent the PMM? Or do you think it's more probable that Harper knew about it and chose to let it play out as a political ploy, knowing that it couldn't be pinned to him?

I guess it's a matter of how much you respect Harper's demonstrated abilities to control his caucus and use parliamentary procedure to his advantage.


----------



## MLeh

i-rui said:


> if that is the crux of your argument against what i'm saying then you're way off. i never suggested that Harper not "operate on points of principle and the rules of Parliament". never. not once.
> 
> I suggested that if he *really* wanted to quash the issue coming from his party he would expel those from his own party who bring it up, which has *nothing* to do with parliamentary procedure.
> 
> 
> 
> that's *exactly* it! Harper *is* a control freak. The fact that this played out the way it did shows that he *let* it happen.


I disagree.

The 'Conservative Party' is a coalition of people who have many similar interests, but also many opposing interests. A leader can't eject everyone from his party who doesn't agree 100% with everyone else agrees with, because there is nothing (aside from 'we don't want the other party to rule') that 100% of them agree upon. (And if Preston Manning were still in politics, you'd find out that he didn't even want to rule - he just want 'good government' and if the ruling party stole all his ideas and thus we ended up with better government - as happened with 'fiscal responsibility' when Paul Martin was finance minister.) As a result they'd end up with almost no one in the party because they'd all be ejected for having deviations from the middle.

In a situation such as this, all a leader can do (and in this case, has done) is to express extreme displeasure that someone within the coalition of the right, and the multiparty committee asked to rule on the motion, has seen fit to bring this subject before parliament again.

Leadership is more than control. It's also having a vision and a goal, and being able to bring others together to work towards that vision.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> suggested that if he *really* wanted to quash the issue coming from his party he would expel those from his own party who bring it up, which has *nothing* to do with parliamentary procedure.


Maybe that's what you would do if you were in power. Last I heard, expelling people who have differing opinions is not the type of thing that's generally lauded.


----------



## i-rui

MLeh said:


> A leader can't eject everyone from his party who doesn't agree 100% with everyone else agrees with, because there is nothing (aside from 'we don't want the other party to rule') that 100% of them agree upon.


of course no one agrees 100% with eachother, but the *signifigant* difference here was it was an *election promise* and that means something (or at least should). Also, it wasn't just a throw away issue where it's natural for a difference of opinion - and further to that it wasn't just a difference of opinion voiced, it was an actual PMM in Parliament!



Macfury said:


> Maybe that's what you would do if you were in power. Last I heard, expelling people who have differing opinions is not the type of thing that's generally lauded.


Harper has expelled MPs for less - i.e Helena Guergis (in essence for who she was married to), and Garth Turner for *writing a Blog*!


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> *This is the crux of the argument, and it comes down to a matter of judgement... do you believe that Harper either did not know of, or was not able to prevent the PMM? * Or do you think it's more probable that Harper knew about it and chose to let it play out as a political ploy, knowing that it couldn't be pinned to him?
> 
> I guess it's a matter of how much you respect Harper's demonstrated abilities to control his caucus and use parliamentary procedure to his advantage.


Sigh... Yes it is entirely possible he was not aware of the PMM at the time of its submission. PMBs and PMMs *are not* vetted by PMO it would directly contradict the very notion of Private Members Business and the reason for its existence.

People here who suggest otherwise simply do not understand the nature of how Private Members Business works. Clearly once it was submitted it would have come to his attention, but it is not within the nature and principle of the division between Government Orders and Private Members Business for Caucus or Leaders to either ask for or demand the withdrawal of a PMB or PMM or their expulsion from Caucus for submitting a PMB or PMM that they do not agree with. 

It is a democracy and Private Members are entitled to their rights, what people here are suggesting is that Harper or any Leader should usurp those basic rights just because they don't agree with the contents of a PMB or PMM.

It seems that those who feel that way would wish to do away with this separation and the very basic rights of Private Members or at least in cases involving the Conservatives, Harper or PMBs or PMMs they disagree with.


----------



## screature

.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> of course no one agrees 100% with eachother, but the *signifigant* difference here was it was an *election promise* and that means something (or at least should). Also, it wasn't just a throw away issue where it's natural for a difference of opinion - and further to that it wasn't just a difference of opinion voiced, it was an actual PMM in Parliament!


He did not promise to muzzle all private members. And it IS an issue where a difference of opinion is natural.



i-rui said:


> Harper has expelled MPs for less - i.e Helena Guergis (in essence for who she was married to), and Garth Turner for *writing a Blog*!


Turner was consistently attacking Conservative policies. No reason to support your enemies. Guergis, in essence because of what she was accused of at the time.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Sigh... Yes it is entirely possible he was not aware of the PMM at the time of its submission. PMBs and PMMs *are not* vetted by PMO it would directly contradict the very notion of Private Members Business and the reason for its existence.


The PMO was fully aware. Woodworth announced in December of last year that he was considering submitting the PMM in 2012.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Turner was consistently attacking Conservative policies.


And Woodworth is attacking the supposed Conservative "promise" of not reopening the abortion debate. 

Plus Woodworth is doing more than just speaking out about it on a blog, he has taken a far more serious step of a PMM.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> And Woodworth is attacking the "supposed" Conservative promise of not reopening the abortion debate.
> 
> Plus Woodworth is doing more than just speaking out about it on a blog, he has taken a far more serious step of a PMM.


Serious to you, because it involves abortion.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Serious to you, because it involves abortion.


No "serious" because he has reached beyond the reasonable means of simply speaking out about his beliefs to whomever wished to hear his thoughts to bringing it before Parliament and using Parliament's resources to further his agenda against the stated Party promise that he as a member of said party was elected.

Exactly why the conservatives in this thread feel the need to attack my argument is beyond me.

I'm not saying the PM should ignore procedure, nor am I saying he doesn't have a right to submit his PMM (as screature claims I was).

I am simply suggesting that if the PM really wanted to keep his election promise he would expel those members who blatantly & rigorously disregard the promise he and the Party made. I am saying that if the PM expects people to accept him at his word then he exhibit an once of integrity on the matter.

Woodworth as an independent MP would still be allowed to submit his PMM. There would be no censorship as some have suggested, but there would be a repercussion for going against the Party on a serious matter.

Just as Bill Casey was expelled by Harper when he voted against the conservative budget in 2007. Did you defend Bill Casey for going against the Party then?


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Mens rea  refers to jurisprudence and as the situation has nothing to do jurisprudence the notion/concept/term is being misapplied.


Talk about your drive by smears and baseless accusations.

I never mentioned jurisprudence. I never mention intent. BTW "Mens Rea" is a legal concept dealing with intent or "guilty mind" why this is being brought to the conversation I'll never know.

Now the idea that OGL is more than capable of being solely in charge of everything enhances his plausible culpability does it not.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> No "serious" because he has reached beyond the reasonable means of simply speaking out about his beliefs to whomever wished to hear his thoughts to bringing it before Parliament and using Parliament's resources to further his agenda against the stated Party promise that he as a member of said party was elected.
> 
> Exactly why the conservatives in this thread feel the need to attack my argument is beyond me.
> 
> *I'm not saying the PM should ignore procedure, nor am I saying he doesn't have a right to submit his PMM (as screature claims I was).
> 
> I am simply suggesting that if the PM really wanted to keep his election promise he would expel those members who blatantly & rigorously disregard the promise he and the Party made. I am saying that if the PM expects people to accept him at his word then he exhibit an once of integrity on the matter.*
> 
> Woodworth as an independent MP would still be allowed to submit his PMM. There would be no censorship as some have suggested, but there would be a repercussion for going against the Party on a serious matter.
> 
> *Just as Bill Casey was expelled by Harper when he voted against the conservative budget in 2007. Did you defend Bill Casey for going against the Party then?*


Essentially you are. The government did not move this motion. It breaks no promise that the government would not raise the issue as it has not. A Private Member has... it seems you would be much more iron fisted if you were the Leader of a Party. 

Maybe you should run for the leadership of the Conservative Party so they would do things they way *you* want them to be done regardless of the separation between Government Orders and Private Members Business.

Bill Casey was expelled because he voted against a Government Bill and specifically the Budget, which is a whipped vote... a whole different kettle of fish and that you would attempt to compare the two shows exactly how little you appreciate the significant differences between Government Orders and Private Members Business.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Talk about your drive by smears and baseless accusations.
> 
> I never mentioned jurisprudence. I never mention intent. BTW "Mens Rea" is a legal concept dealing with intent or "guilty mind" why this is being brought to the conversation I'll never know.
> 
> Now the idea that OGL is more than capable of being solely in charge of everything enhances his plausible culpability does it not.


Hardly drive by because you posted it again because no one replied to you... where was there a smear or accusation? Where did I say anything at all remotely personal pertaining to you? Seriously.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> This is the crux of the argument, and it comes down to a matter of judgement... do you believe that Harper either did not know of, or was not able to prevent the PMM? Or do you think it's more probable that Harper knew about it and chose to let it play out as a political ploy, knowing that it couldn't be pinned to him?
> 
> I guess it's a matter of how much you respect Harper's demonstrated abilities to control his caucus and use parliamentary procedure to his advantage.


OGL is not merely a passive passenger on the ship of state, OGL, is in charge of the Government. The government is in charge of how the business of the house is conducted, (yes, yes the government house leader has the direct responsibility) the Conservatives through OGL can do much with the politics of PMB(s), PMM(s). 

When they go forward, when they are debated and time allocation etc. All, anyone has to do is look at the agenda to figure out how much or how little attention these matters receive versus other PMB(s) or PMM(s) to really understand the Government's interest in the matter.


----------



## MLeh

screature said:


> Bill Casey was expelled because he voted against a Government Bill and specifically the Budget, which is a whipped vote... a whole different kettle of fish and that you would attempt to compare the two shows exactly how little you appreciate the significant differences between Government Orders and Private Members Business.


Quoted for truth.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> The PMO was fully aware. Woodworth announced in December of last year that he was considering submitting the PMM in 2012.


It still does not change the fact that PMO does not vet PMBs or PMMs... nor should it.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> He did not promise to muzzle all private members. And it IS an issue where a difference of opinion is natural.
> 
> Turner was consistently attacking Conservative policies. No reason to support your enemies. Guergis, in essence because of what she was accused of at the time.


+1 Exactly.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> I am simply suggesting that if the PM really wanted to keep his election promise he would expel those members who blatantly & rigorously disregard the promise he and the Party made. I am saying that if the PM expects people to accept him at his word then he exhibit an once of integrity on the matter.


Since this does not constitute a breaking of the PM's promise, expelling the member is a wildly inappropriate gesture.


----------



## eMacMan

For those of you wondering how King Harpo managed to rack up such big deficits. Please read the entire article as info is not concisely summarized in a way that is easily quoted.

Canadian banks got $114B 'bailout' during recession - Business - CBC News



> ...
> 
> It says support for Canadian banks from various agencies reached $114 billion at its peak. That works out to $3,400 for every man, woman and child in Canada, and also to seven per cent of Canada's gross domestic product in 2009.
> 
> The figure is also 10 times the size of the amount Canadian taxpayers spent on the auto industry in 2009.
> 
> ...


----------



## eMacMan

I do try to give credit where it's due. I think Baird putting this looney idea on hold is probably the right thing to do.

Back door discount pedaling is not the best way to go here.
Baird orders stop to sale of valuable federal art, including Rioppelle, Kurelek - Yahoo! News Canada


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> For those of you wondering how King Harpo managed to rack up such big deficits. Please read the entire article as info is not concisely summarized in a way that is easily quoted.
> 
> Canadian banks got $114B 'bailout' during recession - Business - CBC News


Is this the deal where CMHC took over a portfolio of mortgages from the banks in exchange for cash?

If so, that was a simple swap to increase bank liquidity. CMHC still owns the mortgages and collects interest on the loans, which is paid to the people of Canada.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Is this the deal where CMHC took over a portfolio of mortgages from the banks in exchange for cash?
> 
> If so, that was a simple swap to increase bank liquidity. CMHC still owns the mortgages and collects interest on the loans, which is paid to the people of Canada.


As I said more to it than that. Read the entire article.


----------



## MacDoc

I'm not putting this in the why the disrespect thread but it is AMPLE evidence of why Harper is in the 20% and failling.



> *Once upon a time, Canadians could be proud of Parliament*
> GERALD CAPLAN
> Globe and Mail Update
> Published Friday, May. 04, 2012 3:47PM EDT
> 
> Stephen Harper has celebrated the first anniversary of his majority by reminding Canadians of the moral tone he offers his country.
> 
> A week ago, Mr. Harper announced Canada would examine “all options” as the 2014 deadline for pulling our troops out of Afghanistan approached. Since Parliament had voted unanimously for that deadline and for no other options, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair asked the Prime Minister when Canadian troops would actually be brought home.
> 
> Instead of responding to a reasonable question, Mr. Harper chose to play what an Ottawa Citizen reporter called “the Hitler card” (also handy in describing the menace of tax increases on the rich, as we saw last week). “Unlike the NDP,” the Prime Minister stated, “we are not going to ideologically have a position regardless of circumstances. The leader of the NDP, in 1939, did not even want to support war against Hitler.”
> 
> This was a rather brazen gambit from the ideologue who, as opposition leader in 2003, vociferously demanded the Chrétien government back George Bush's war against Iraq. The Prime Minister’s strange tactic also brought back memories of him smearing Jack Layton for advocating negotiations with the Taliban, a position soon adopted almost everywhere. *“Taliban Jack” was low enough. Hitler takes us to new depths*.


more

Once upon a time, Canadians could be proud of Parliament - The Globe and Mail

To have Harper supporters angling for "respect" under these circumstances is the height of hypocrisy.

Not mention the unfolding Robo-calls....

‘Pierre Poutine’ launched robo-calls from computer used by Tory campaign - The Globe and Mail


----------



## BigDL

It is with much sadness as I view OGL ignoring the conventions of responsible governing.

His Minion of Environment accusing environmental organizations of money laundering. The now infamous Vic Towes, Public Safety Minion, declaration of "you stand with us or with the child pornographers." 

Sure Petey MacKay, Christian Paradise and Bev Oda mis-steps provide comic relief.

However this government is starting to look very old and very tired already.


----------



## Macfury

In what form did the NDP not support war against Hitler?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> It is with much sadness as I view OGL ignoring the conventions of responsible governing.
> 
> His Minion of Environment accusing environmental organizations of money laundering. The now infamous Vic Towes, Public Safety Minion, declaration of "you stand with us or with the child pornographers."
> 
> Sure Petey MacKay, Christian Paradise and Bev Oda mis-steps provide comic relief.
> 
> However this government is starting to look very old and very tired already.





> It is with much sadness as I view Prime Minister Harper ignoring the conventions of responsible governing.
> 
> His Environment Minister accusing environmental organizations of money laundering. The now infamous Vic Towes, Public Safety Minister, declaration of "you stand with us or with the child pornographers."
> 
> Sure Peter MacKay, Christian Paradise and Bev Oda mis-steps provide comic relief.
> 
> However this government is starting to look very old and very tired already.


^ Just to correct the name calling and show how the post could have read.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> ^ Just to correct the name calling.


Almost makes the post look respectable!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Almost makes the post look respectable!


Yep, and it was soooo easy. To bad some people just don't get it. Their posts insult other members, not PM Harper. He hardly ever reads ehMac and won't see those insults anyway you know.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep, and it was soooo easy. To bad some people just don't get it. Their posts insult other members, not PM Harper. He hardly ever reads ehMac and won't see those insults anyway you know.


+1 Exactly...

But don't you know a void has been left so someone has to fill the disrespect gap.... 

I think Mleh rightfully referred to it as a "race to the bottom"... It seems some people are more interested in winning that race than others.


----------



## MacDoc

Funny how that sits on the other foot - I suspect Chretien and the lIberals nor Jack Layton and the NDP didn't either. Now the coterie wants to be sanctimonious and nod and bow oh so elegantly.

Support the kind of political behaviour Harper and crew have dished out and - expect to be dissed.
Layton to his credit got above it in the last campaign and ran a positive campaign.
Not one insulting to Canadians and a Rovian travesty.

Painted wit the same brush......or is that tainted.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Funny how that sits on the other foot - I suspect Chretien and the lIberals nor Jack Layton and the NDP didn't either. Now the coterie wants to be sanctimonious and nod and bow oh so elegantly.


This suggestion came from EhMax, so take it up with the mayor if you want to continue bringing down the level of discourse by being bellicose.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> ^ Just to correct the name calling.





Macfury said:


> Almost makes the post look respectable!


Welcome to North Korea.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> ^ Just to correct the name calling.



View attachment 23963


This act is reprehensible, especially coming from Sinc. A citizen that has ripped many posters for mis-quoting other posters. Sinc does know better.

You sir have no right to change my words and attribute the quote to me. This is patently wrong. To put other words into my mouth, that I did not intend to say is unconscionable. 

This behaviour is decidedly unfriendly and not in keeping with the Mayor's ideals for this great place. 

This is a controlling behaviour and a form of censorship that you have not right to impose upon me or upon any other citizen of Ehmac. 

I post an average of 1.33 posts a day (an Ehmac statistic) and if you find that mass of posting *too difficult to wade through on a daily basis* them there is a ready remedy available to you and any citizens of this fair land.

If you find my posts so offensive and egregious, then the proper action, is to report my post(s) to the moderators' attention or to the Mayor. It is not proper to change my words and attribute *these words and your thoughts* to me.

If posters wish to sanitize this thread because these posters can't debate or can't defend the actions of the present Government and governing Party that is their choice.

I shall comply with the Mayor's directives. I shall not comply with demands from self anointed thread cops or cyber bullies.

I shall not self censor.

And on top of all of that who was I calling a name?


----------



## MacDoc

> This suggestion came from EhMax, so take it up with the mayor if you want to continue bringing down the level of discourse by being bellicose.


oh the irony the irony.....the sanctimony just makes one ill...XX)

Got anything cogent to say on Robo-calls - what's going to happen if it leads back to the PMO. Will we hear the vitriol from the right about corrupt and unprincipalled as was so generously bestowed for years on the Liberals.

What shocks me is that we don't hear that already given the evidence.

For a party governing with the support of barely more than 1/3 of the voters Harper has a lot of gall.

You're not a mod MF so stop with the side seat driving.

To demand respect by fiat only shows how the Harperian edict world works. Stupid hubris hardly begins to contain the concept.

When I see your open letter to Harper deploring the subversion of democracy and schoolyard behaviour in parliament.....invoking Hitler is a new low.....then I might take heed of the bleating.

Right now it is hypocritical given the past history of the rabid right here and in too much of the right wing media.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> You're not a mod MF so stop with the side seat driving.


No, I am not a mod. However, I am still upholding you to the standards of EhMac.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I shall comply with the Mayor's directives. I shall not comply with demands from self anointed thread cops or cyber bullies.


The Mayor's directives were to stop using insulting nicknames, such as OGL or Harpo, for politicians and to refer to them by their actual names or positions.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> View attachment 23963
> 
> 
> This act is reprehensible, especially coming from Sinc. A citizen that has ripped many posters for mis-quoting other posters. Sinc does know better.
> 
> You sir have no right to change my words and attribute the quote to me. This is patently wrong. To put other words into my mouth, that I did not intend to say is unconscionable.


Apologies, I meant to take your name out of the change and forgot. I meant it as an example of how the language could better suit the mayor's wishes. It is now corrected and the point of the changes still stand.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> No, I am not a mod. However, I am still upholding you to the standards of EhMac.


That is best left up to the Mods. If MacDoc (or anyone else) is not upholding the actual standards of ehMac, I trust they will let him know.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> That is best left up to the Mods. If MacDoc (or anyone else) is not upholding the actual standards of ehMac, I trust they will let him know.


It was expressly stated that members should hold other members to the standards of the EhMac community.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Apologies, I meant to take your name out of the change and forgot. I meant it as an example of how the language could better suit the mayor's wishes. It is now corrected and the point of the changes still stand.


Well let's see, where to start, I was not referring to the Prime Minister solely but to the Conservative Party, to the leader of the Conservative Party and the unelected members of the PMO, when I made reference to Our Glorious Leader. This is not name calling but a name for the reality of how our Government truly operates.

Ministers or Ministers of the Crown are folk that tell the truth, conduct themselves honourably and take Ministerial responsibility and resign when found to wanting or acting in a dishonourable manner. Sometimes exceptional Ministers of the Crown actually shape public policy and make substantive change within the professional government. They relay information from Government departments to and from the Governor in Council, (the Cabinet.) They debate the opposition in public, not send out their underlings to do the nitty gritty work in public.

Minions on the other hand are not honourable. Minions spout the daily message track received from the PMO, regurgitating taking points verbatim and ad nauseam to any query put to them, even if, the answer has no relevance to the question put to them. Again the reality of how things work in and from Ottawa these days.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Well let's see, where to start, I was not referring to the Prime Minister solely but to the Conservative Party, to the leader of the Conservative Party and the unelected members of the PMO, when I made reference to Our Glorious Leader. This is not name calling but a name for the reality of how our Government truly operates.


Sorry, but I don't buy that. Your use of Our Glorious Leader is clearly singular and refers specifically to the PM. You need an 's' on the end to accomplish your claim. Of course that would not work either, because we only have one leader. (Unless of course you include the leader of the opposition and the leader of the Liberal party.) Is that what you meant?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> *Sorry, but I don't buy that. Your use of Our Glorious Leader is clearly singular and refers specifically to the PM.* You need an 's' on the end to accomplish your claim. Of course that would not work either, because we only have one leader. (Unless of course you include the leader of the opposition and the leader of the Liberal party.) Is that what you meant?


+1 The fact is he is borrowing the name applied by the people of North Korea to their dictator, thus it is highly derogatory and completely misplaced as our Prime Minister is duly elected and has to run for election in a democracy. To make such a comparison is ridiculous in the extreme based only on ones objections to the policies and actions of the PM.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Sorry, but I don't buy that. Your use of Our Glorious Leader is clearly singular and refers specifically to the PM. You need an 's' on the end to accomplish your claim. Of course that would not work either, because we only have one leader. (Unless of course you include the leader of the opposition and the leader of the Liberal party.) Is that what you meant?


Still the only way it could ever be construed as insulting is if the reader feels the PM cannot live up to the expectations that the phrase Our Glorious Leader generates. Hence Harper Believers should not be in the least insulted and his detractors equally well satisfied.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Still the only way it could ever be construed as insulting is if the reader feels the PM cannot live up to the expectations that the phrase Our Glorious Leader generates.


This:



screature said:


> +1 The fact is he is borrowing the name applied by the people of North Korea to their dictator, thus it is highly derogatory and completely misplaced as our Prime Minister is duly elected and has to run for election in a democracy. To make such a comparison is ridiculous in the extreme based only on ones objections to the policies and actions of the PM.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Still *the only way it could ever be construed as insulting* is if the reader feels the PM cannot live up to the expectations that the phrase Our Glorious Leader generates. Hence Harper Believers should not be in the least insulted and his detractors equally well satisfied.


It is insulting because it equates the PM to a tyrannical megalomanical dictator and is in fact by extrapolation also then equating Canadian politics and our institutions to the political situation in North Korea... as I said before, ridiculous in the extreme.


----------



## Ottawaman

Did Harper truly win? I'll wait for Elections Canada to pronounce on that. If they find that the vote suppression was as wide spread as it has been reported what does that say about Canadian democracy? Perhaps Harper should stop holding so many committee meetings in camera, respond to the press, and stop stalling and rejecting FOI requests. Perhaps when these issues and a plethora of other issues are addressed the comparisons will stop.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It is insulting because it equates the PM to a tyrannical megalomanical dictator and is in fact by extrapolation also then equating Canadian politics and our institutions to the political situation in North Korea... as I said before, ridiculous in the extreme.


Ah, he does not live up to the phrase. In that case your sensitivity is indeed well justified. 

I think the issue may revolve around "Our". After all, a number of bills, C-11 and C-30 in particular, were clearly written for the government by outside interests. These bills being virtually identical to bills originally put forth under the Liberal Banner, makes denial of outside influence quite implausible. It is hard not to conclude that in the mind of this Government, corporate and power buds take precedence over the interests of Canadians. So I will give you that "Our" does not really apply to the PM. 

If you also wish to claim that he falls short of being "Glorious" and/or a "Leader", I will happily defer to your professed superior knowledge of the Canadian Parliamentary System.


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> Did Harper truly win? I'll wait for Elections Canada to pronounce on that. If they find that the vote suppression was as wide spread had been reported what does that say about Canadian democracy? Perhaps Harper should stop holding so many committee meetings in camera, respond to the press, and stop stalling and rejecting FOI requests. Perhaps when these issues and a plethora of other issues are addressed the comparisons will stop.


Harper did truly win, Elections Canada will not be changing that I I have not doubt on that front whatsoever.

The comparisons are pure hyperbole relative to reality.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Ah, he does not live up to the phrase. In that case your sensitivity is indeed well justified.
> 
> I think the issue may revolve around "Our". After all, a number of bills, C-11 and C-30 in particular, were clearly written for the government by outside interests. These bills being virtually identical to bills originally put forth under the Liberal Banner, makes denial of outside influence quite implausible. It is hard not to conclude that in the mind of this Government, corporate and power buds take precedence over the interests of Canadians. So I will give you that "Our" does not really apply to the PM.
> 
> If you also wish to claim that he falls short of being "Glorious" and/or a "Leader", I will happily defer to your professed superior knowledge of the Canadian Parliamentary System.


Your break down of the term OGL into the meaning of its individual words is completely moot as we all know who the term was originally being applied to and it is being applied to the PM as a means of derision. No different than if someone referred to him as Mein Führer... we all know what is being said so there is no need to play the little word games.


----------



## Ottawaman

I imagine that Elections Canada will not be able to say one way or the other as the Conservative CIMS database has had data deleted.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It was expressly stated that members should hold other members to the standards of the EhMac community.


Last I checked, ehMax stated he disliked the use of nicknames for politicians but I don't recall him disallowing their use. 

When it comes down to the battle of disrespect versus censorship. I'll choose disrespect any day.

Seems as though this is simply becoming the platform of a group of individuals who don't want their team mocked. The level of discourse isn't going to improve around here with the added feature of censorship. 

Play within the written guidelines. Let the mods _be the mods_. Live and let live.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> +1 The fact is he is borrowing the name applied by the people of North Korea to their dictator, thus it is highly derogatory and completely misplaced as our Prime Minister is duly elected and has to run for election in a democracy. To make such a comparison is ridiculous in the extreme based only on ones objections to the policies and actions of the PM.


Which North Korean dictator had the title of Our Glorious Leader?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Last I checked, ehMax stated he disliked the use of nicknames for politicians but I don't recall him disallowing their use.
> 
> When it comes down to the battle of disrespect versus censorship. I'll choose disrespect any day.
> 
> Seems as though this is simply becoming the platform of a group of individuals who don't want their team mocked. The level of discourse isn't going to improve around here with the added feature of censorship.
> 
> Play within the written guidelines. Let the mods _be the mods_. Live and let live.


That's right. The management respectfully requested that these terms not be used. It's within the written guidelines rights to ignore the mayor's request. This is why I will not report these posts to the Mods, and I will continue to remind people of community standards.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Which North Korean dictator had the title of Our Glorious Leader?


He didn't have the title of OGL he was referred to by the people of North Korea as such which is what I said and I find your feigning ignorance in this regard rather amusing.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> He didn't have the title of OGL he was referred to by the people of North Korea as such which is what I said and I find your feigning ignorance in this regard rather amusing.


I believe that leader was known as "Dear Leader" "Our Father" or "The General"

Is there any proof he was called "Our Glorious Leader" or is this a "you can trust me on this" kind of matter?


----------



## eMacMan

A slightly more appropriate place for the individual wanting a link showing the FBI considered cash purchases being a suspicious activity.

Finally found a reliable lame stream link.



> Another place that struck us as odd to be on an FBI watch list, a tattoo shop.
> 
> "We see our share of the unusual," said Jim Lockhart.
> 
> Lockhart admits his Inksters Tattoo in North Palm Beach is a place with some odd customers, but not necessarily terrorists.
> 
> "The things that they have on their watch list like, *people coming in to spend cash*. *We are primarily a cash business*. Changing of apperances. We do work with the fettish community and a change of appearance happens all the time anyways," said Lockhart.


WPEC-TV CBS12 News :: News - Top Stories - Special Report: Are you a terrorist?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> This is why I will not report these posts to the Mods, and I will continue to remind people of community standards.


And we'll continue to remind you of the same.


----------



## MLeh

Popped into the thread to see how it was going. I was about to type "What a bunch of children," but then realized that it would be an insult to children everywhere.

All of you: Quit justifying being a jerk with your 'You're not the boss of ME' and similar.

You disgust me, the bunch of you. No wonder the parliamentary system is so screwed up if this is the type of people they're trying to govern. No wonder our children look at the adults around them with disgust. 

Around and around and around, never going anywhere, just the same crap.

I'd say 'GROW UP', but obviously it isn't a case of developmental delay, but just a case of 'ignoramus terminus'.

I'm terminating my relationship with this forum: it embarrasses me to be seen in this company.


----------



## kps

MLeh said:


> Popped into the thread to see how it was going. I was about to type "What a bunch of children," but then realized that it would be an insult to children everywhere.
> 
> All of you: Quit justifying being a jerk with your 'You're not the boss of ME' and similar.
> 
> You disgust me, the bunch of you. No wonder the parliamentary system is so screwed up if this is the type of people they're trying to govern. No wonder our children look at the adults around them with disgust.
> 
> Around and around and around, never going anywhere, just the same crap.
> 
> I'd say 'GROW UP', but obviously it isn't a case of developmental delay, but just a case of 'ignoramus terminus'.
> 
> I'm terminating my relationship with this forum:  it embarrasses me to be seen in this company.


Wowza!


----------



## BigDL

MLeh said:


> Popped into the thread to see how it was going. I was about to type "What a bunch of children," but then realized that it would be an insult to children everywhere.
> 
> All of you: Quit justifying being a jerk with your 'You're not the boss of ME' and similar.
> 
> You disgust me, the bunch of you. No wonder the parliamentary system is so screwed up if this is the type of people they're trying to govern. No wonder our children look at the adults around them with disgust.
> 
> Around and around and around, never going anywhere, just the same crap.
> 
> I'd say 'GROW UP', but obviously it isn't a case of developmental delay, but just a case of 'ignoramus terminus'.
> 
> I'm terminating my relationship with this forum: it embarrasses me to be seen in this company.


I think in keeping with the Mayors wishes posters should not call other members demeaning names. It is against the agreed policy of Ehmac when members sign up.

I believe many of the posts, posted today Saturday May 5th, are inappropriate and do not belong in this thread. They derailed a discussion of politics with a discussion of names, political correctness and censorship. I feel they belong in another thread where people are going around and around about names and such; "Why do people disrespect names of individuals?" 

I shall not resort to demeaning comments of that thread. I have my opinions *on some* of the motives of the posters in that thread, but shall remain silent for the present, but that's just me.


----------



## Sonal

To me, this illustrates why I don't think members should directly hold other members accountable... it would work if people responded by saying "Sorry, my bad" and fixing the issue and carrying on, but it doesn't work that way. People start justifying their choices and it turns into an on-thread argument that (possibly) creates more animosity than it reduces.

Better IMO to take the issue to a moderator and have them deal with it, because it avoids this. 

And no, I do not consider it censorship... this is a privately owned website, whose owner can decide whatever he likes. After all, curse words are changed to ****s around here as it is, and I haven't heard anyone scream censorship over that. From what I've seen, everyone here is competent enough in their use of language to adequately express disrespect without using silly names or nicknames.

But on a side note, every time I see someone use OGL I keep thinking of the OLG (Ontario Lottery and Gaming commission) which confuses me every time. (You'd think I'd learn.)


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> To me, this illustrates why I don't think members should directly hold other members accountable... it would work if people responded by saying "Sorry, my bad" and fixing the issue and carrying on, but it doesn't work that way. People start justifying their choices and it turns into an on-thread argument that (possibly) creates more animosity than it reduces.
> 
> Better IMO to take the issue to a moderator and have them deal with it, because it avoids this.


Provided the mods exercise impartiality, keep their enforcement to the ehMac rules of conduct and keep their personal biases of subject or poster out of it.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Provided the mods exercise impartiality, keep their enforcement to the ehMac rules of conduct and keep their personal biases of subject or poster out of it.


Well yes. But I'm willing to trust the moderators to do so. And if something goes badly I'm also willing to trust the moderators to own up and make amends.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Well yes. But I'm willing to trust the moderators to do so. And if something goes badly I'm also willing to trust the moderators to own up and make amends.


You're assuming that statement to be obvious, but in my experience that is seldom the case. 

Also...a lot of times I have a hard time keeping up with youz...it would have to be some mod's full time job to keep some of you in line. :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> You're assuming that statement to be obvious, but in my experience that is seldom the case.
> 
> Also...a lot of times I have a hard time keeping up with youz...it would have to be some mod's full time job to keep some of you in line. :lmao:


I've definitely been on forums where that's not the case. And hey, I got sick of it and stopped going there along with a whole bunch of other people. 

I don't expect perfection, but if things seem at least reasonable, I'm okay. In any case, I haven't exactly found ehMax to be a tyrant. 

As for full-time job, that's why I think a system that's user-reported, but mod-enforced might work.... though automating a few things like changing 'Fiberal' to 'Liberal' and 'Harpo' to 'Harper' might help.

Anyway, I'll also stop derailing this thread now.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Anyway, I'll also stop derailing this thread now.


Meh, this thread derailed ages ago.


----------



## MacDoc

Why is this not surprising



> *Independence the only choice for Quebec under Harper, PQ Leader says*
> RHÉAL SÉGUIN
> Quebec City— Globe and Mail Update
> Published Saturday, May. 05, 2012 3:07PM EDT
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s vision of Canada is leaving Quebec no other choice but to seek political independence, Parti Québécois leader Pauline Marois said
> 
> It has become “very risky” for the province to remain a part of Canada, she added in the speech to party faithful gathering to prepare for the next provincial election.


Independence the only choice for Quebec under Harper, PQ Leader says - The Globe and Mail

early days yet ......


----------



## Sonal

The Parti Quebecois leader thinks independence from Canada is the solution for Quebec? You don't say....


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Why is this not surprising
> 
> Independence the only choice for Quebec under Harper, PQ Leader says - The Globe and Mail


Because it was true under every Prime Minister since Trudeau?


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> Why is this not surprising


Oh, I dunno, let me guess. Because that is what separatists do regardless of who is in power?


----------



## bryanc

Harper has long been of the opinion that Canada would be better off without QC, and facilitating their departure has been one of his motivations for getting into federal politics from the start.

I don't think it will happen quickly, and if we can get rid of the Conservatives after one term, I think it may be possible for a federalist government to undo some of the damage.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Harper has long been of the opinion that Canada would be better off without QC, and facilitating their departure has been one of his motivations for getting into federal politics from the start.
> 
> I don't think it will happen quickly, and if we can get rid of the Conservatives after one term, I think it may be possible for a federalist government to undo some of the damage.


How? By electing the NDP who promised last election to make it easier fro Quebec to leave?


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> How?


By moving Canada further to the Right (QC is firmly to the Left of the rest of Canada), by pandering to Western interests, and by weakening federal powers.


----------



## BigDL

Old Curse: said:


> "May your times be interesting."


Interesting, may be the case for all of the citizens of Canada, but most importantly for Our Glorious Leader and it's Tired Old Government®™©, for them the times may be very interesting indeed.

The ND Party's Tom Mucair has vowed to demand more transparency in the House and the Federal Dippers are embarking on a drive to return to responsible governance and transparency.



CBC Radio's The House said:


> This week on The House, Evan Solomon talks to NDP leader Thomas Mulcair about the controversial budget implementation bill, why he thinks the development of the oil sands is hurting the Canadian economy, and his party's plans to demand more transparency from the government.
> 
> Former DND deputy minister Alan Williams is the author of a new book on the controversial F-35 procurement process. He explains why he thinks the government misled Canadians.
> 
> The show begins with the latest on the so-called robocalls story.


 Home The House with Evan Solomon | CBC Radio Note: There is an audio link with an interview with Tom Mulcair with a teaser of the Federal Dipper's plans.

We shall see if Our Glorious Leader and it's Tired Old Government®™© will soon be on the ropes.


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> ...
> We shall see if Our Glorious Leader and it's Tired Old Government®™© will soon be on the ropes.


Hate to point out the obvious but it is a solid majority. Sadly that means a few more years of corporations and power interests pushing bills like C-11 and C-30. 

Sadly it probably also means Canada will not tell the US where to shove FATCA. Meaning an end to Canadian sovereignty. NOTE: The big five Canadian Banks have so little faith in this government standing up to the US on FACTA that they are now hiring people to try to figure out how best to "comply". 

Also suspect we will see a big time drain on taxpayer dollars as Canada gets sucked into an invasion of Iran, probably followed by Pakistan. When that happens you can kiss the promised balanced budget goodbye.


----------



## kps

LOL, Mulcair...another citizen of France that wants to run Canada.

Just another piggie at the trough promising transparency. Maybe he can be transparent enough and tell all of Canada how he really felt about Jack Layton instead of the lies him and Olivia are spouting.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> LOL, Mulcair...another citizen of France that wants to run Canada.
> 
> Just another piggie at the trough promising transparency. Maybe he can be transparent enough and tell all of Canada how he really felt about Jack Layton instead of the lies him and Olivia are spouting.


I know a number of people who have and treasure dual citizenship. However if one wishes to run for parliament or even a provincial legislature, they should have to renounce all other citizenships. Matters not if that other card is US, Israel, France or Iran. If their loyalty to Canada is in any way compromised then they should not be sitting in Parliament or a Provincial Legislature. 

Calgary's Diane Ablonzy claims to have renounced here US citizenship but I do wonder if she just took an oath before Parliament or if she really did the reams of paperwork that goes with telling the US State Department to shove it.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> Hate to point out the obvious but it is a solid majority. Sadly that means a few more years of corporations and power interests pushing bills like C-11 and C-30.
> 
> Sadly it probably also means Canada will not tell the US where to shove FATCA. Meaning an end to Canadian sovereignty. NOTE: The big five Canadian Banks have so little faith in this government standing up to the US on FACTA that they are now hiring people to try to figure out how best to "comply".
> 
> Also suspect we will see a big time drain on taxpayer dollars as Canada gets sucked into an invasion of Iran, probably followed by Pakistan. When that happens you can kiss the promised balanced budget goodbye.


Well I am taking the long view. 8 years of Brian Mulroney did not kill Canada as we know it. 3 and a half more years of the present government, we shall have to wait and see, but I do remain optimistic for our nation coming out of this dark period in our history intact.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I know a number of people who have and treasure dual citizenship. However if one wishes to run for parliament or even a provincial legislature, they should have to renounce all other citizenships. Matters not if that other card is US, Israel, France or Iran. If their loyalty to Canada is in any way compromised then they should not be sitting in Parliament or a Provincial Legislature.
> 
> Calgary's Diane Ablonzy claims to have renounced here US citizenship but I do wonder if she just took an oath before Parliament or if she really did the reams of paperwork that goes with telling the US State Department to shove it.


Yes, and anyone elected in the US to a federal position has to have only US citizenship as well. My problem would be having to swear an oath to the Queen and all her heirs in order to hold a federal position in Parliament.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well I am taking the long view. 8 years of Brian Mulroney did not kill Canada as we know it. 3 and a half more years of the present government, we shall have to wait and see, but I do remain optimistic for our nation coming out of this dark period in our history intact.


The federal framework will have drastically changed, so it could take generations to re-make the mischief wrought by previous governments.


----------



## MacDoc

snip



> But omnibus bills are red flags. They show contempt for the opposition, within Parliament and without. Sometimes the opposition lashes back in the most creative ways.
> 
> If the Tories don’t watch themselves, the House of Commons could end up smelling like rotten fish.


Good article

Tread carefully, Tories: Governments can live to regret omnibus bills - The Globe and Mail


----------



## i-rui

you know when conservative columnists like John Ibbitson & Andrew Coyne are calling out the Harper government for abusing their power by ramming through omnibus bills that something is dangerously wrong with this government.


----------



## Dr.G.

Due to Ottawa's recent closing of the Maritime Rescue Sub-Centre in St. John’s, according to CBC News , radio calls for medical help from ships needing to speak with a doctor while in Newfoundland and Labrador waters are now being routed to CIRM, a free service in Rome. Until last week, such radio calls from Newfoundland and Labrador waters for medical assistance were funnelled to a Halifax-based company, Praxes Medical Group.

Similar distress calls in Nova Scotia waters are handled by the Queen Elizabeth II hospital in Halifax.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Due to Ottawa's recent closing of the Maritime Rescue Sub-Centre in St. John’s, according to CBC News , radio calls for medical help from ships needing to speak with a doctor while in Newfoundland and Labrador waters are now being routed to CIRM, a free service in Rome. Until last week, such radio calls from Newfoundland and Labrador waters for medical assistance were funnelled to a Halifax-based company, Praxes Medical Group.
> 
> Similar distress calls in Nova Scotia waters are handled by the Queen Elizabeth II hospital in Halifax.


In situations such as these a link to the source is much appreciated Dr. G.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> In situations such as these a link to the source is much appreciated Dr. G.


N.L. marine medical calls now routed to Italy - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> In situations such as these a link to the source is much appreciated Dr. G.


Sorry, I thought that I had included the URL that Sonal just submitted. Mea culpa.

Merci, Sonal. Paix, mon amie.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> N.L. marine medical calls now routed to Italy - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


Thanks Sonal.  I will give it a read.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry, I thought that I had included the URL that Sonal just submitted. Mea culpa.
> 
> Merci, Sonal. Paix, mon amie.


No worries...


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

MacDoc said:


> Good article
> 
> Tread carefully, Tories: Governments can live to regret omnibus bills - The Globe and Mail


Stephen Harper has had in the past well-grounded reasons for opposing omnibus legislation:



Stephen Harper MP in Parliament said:


> Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order to make a procedural argument concerning the omnibus nature of this piece of legislation.
> ....
> First, there is a lack of relevancy of these issues. The omnibus bills we have before us attempt to amend several different existing laws.
> 
> Second, in the interest of democracy I ask: How can members represent their constituents on these various areas when they are forced to vote in a block on such legislation and on such concerns?


Stephen Harper, "Budget Implementation Act, 1994" on March 25th, 1994 | openparliament.ca

"In the interest of democracy" isn't an area that appears to keep Harper awake at night much these days.


----------



## Macfury

I agree with the approach of breaking the Omnibus bill into five parts.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Due to Ottawa's recent closing of the Maritime Rescue Sub-Centre in St. John’s, according to CBC News , radio calls for medical help from ships needing to speak with a doctor while in Newfoundland and Labrador waters are now being routed to CIRM, a free service in Rome. Until last week, such radio calls from Newfoundland and Labrador waters for medical assistance were funnelled to a Halifax-based company, Praxes Medical Group.
> 
> Similar distress calls in Nova Scotia waters are handled by the Queen Elizabeth II hospital in Halifax.


Dr. G. it says right in the article:



> But the federal government said the move was an interim measure, and that "a Canadian solution has now been found" with a contract being signed late Wednesday with the company that used to provide the service.


Seems like a lot of todo over a very temporary situation.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I agree with the approach of breaking the Omnibus bill into five parts.


Not gonna happen, they are entrenched.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Not gonna happen, they are entrenched.


I realize that. But I would prefer it is all.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I realize that. But I would prefer it is all.


You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> you know when conservative columnists like John Ibbitson & Andrew Coyne are calling out the Harper government for abusing their power by ramming through omnibus bills that something is dangerously wrong with this government.


+1

Scary Dangerous.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.


Gotta link for that?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Gotta link for that?





> You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.


Sorry no... I should have stated:



> You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill *IMO* it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.


 

Just look for media links for other Budget Implementation Bills vs. this one and I think the proof will be in the pudding.

As much as the Opposition wishes to claim that the Government is "hiding" the changes the Government is proposing in Bill C-38 it seems the Opposition and the media are absolutely fully aware of them... so where exactly is anything being hidden?

Do tell...

This is the nature of our democratic system and a free media... nothing remains hidden for long even when it is just purely baseless BS and even when there is no proof. In the court of public opinion it remains a "fact"... i.e. guilty by accusation.

The very fact that there is so much attention on Bill C-38 shows that the system is working and there is no repression of facts or hiding... It's just plainly obvious.


----------



## MacDoc

It makes it no less distasteful.

Harper has little respect for democratic structure....he is losing ground in public opinion.

If the left merges - it will be a very long time before the right gets another chance with their low support numbers.....perhaps that's why the frantic maker over.

A parody is what is emerging. XX)


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Just look for media links for other Budget Implementation Bills vs. this one and I think the proof will be in the pudding.
> 
> As much as the Opposition wishes to claim that the Government is "hiding" the changes the Government is proposing in Bill C-38 it seems the Opposition and the media are absolutely fully aware of them... so where exactly is anything being hidden?
> 
> Do tell...
> 
> This is the nature of our democratic system and a free media... nothing remains hidden for long even when it is just purely baseless BS and even when there is no proof. In the court of public opinion it remains a "fact"... i.e. guilty by accusation.
> 
> The very fact that there is so much attention on Bill C-38 shows that the system is working and there is no repression of facts or hiding... It's just plainly obvious.


Nothing is being hidden, it's all on record, but it is harder for the public and the media to focus on dissimilar things that are packed together in an omnibus bill.

I agree with Stephen Harper on this issue (circa 1994). As he said back then, it is anti-democratic in that it forces MPs to accept or reject the package as a whole. They can't represent the wishes of their constituents if they might like some parts of the omnibus bill and dislike others.

And as the G&M article mentions, I believe this approach shows contempt for MPs, the Opposition and ultimately of Parliament. Why doesn't the Government simply put their whole legislative agenda into a single bill, plunk it in front of the House, invoke closure on debate and be done with the Parliamentary session inside a week, if they aren't going to allow MPs to do their jobs and debate the individual pros and cons of various proposed laws? There is a reason we have a Parliament and an Opposition as a check and balance against the Government. The current Harper government seems to want to dispense with this.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Nothing is being hidden, it's all on record, but it is harder for the public and the media to focus on dissimilar things that are packed together in an omnibus bill.
> 
> I agree with Stephen Harper on this issue (circa 1994). As he said back then, it is anti-democratic in that it forces MPs to accept or reject the package as a whole. They can't represent the wishes of their constituents if they might like some parts of the omnibus bill and dislike others.
> 
> And as the G&M article mentions, I believe this approach shows contempt for MPs, the Opposition and ultimately of Parliament. Why doesn't the Government simply put their whole legislative agenda into a single bill, plunk it in front of the House, *invoke closure on debate and be done with the Parliamentary session inside a week, if they aren't going to allow MPs to do their jobs and debate the individual pros and cons of various proposed laws? There is a reason we have a Parliament and an Opposition as a check and balance against the Government. The current Harper government seems to want to dispense with this.*


There was no closure there was time allocation and if Peter Julian didn't pull his 11 hour long stunt there would have been plenty of time for other MPs to speak. The fact of the matter is that the real work on legislation is done in Committee not in debates in the House and C-38 will have plenty of time in Committee.

The Opposition is clearly doing their job as there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill which is usually very sleepy stuff indeed.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> *There was no closure* there was time allocation and if Peter Julian didn't pull his 11 hour long stunt there would have been plenty of time for other MPs to speak. The fact of the matter is that the real work on legislation is done in Committee not in debates in the House and C-38 will have plenty of time in Committee.
> 
> The Opposition is clearly doing their job as there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill which is usually very sleepy stuff indeed.


Correction for screature: I did not state that there was closure for C-38. Don't know what you're on about there.

Besides that, you dodged the question that Stephen Harper brought up in 1994, that using omnibus legislation is inherently undemocratic. 

Does it make it better that you think it's "sleepy stuff"? No.

Does it make it better that you think Parliament does no "real work"? No. I think many would disagree with you on that point. Harper's tendency (and that of his supporters) in recent years has been to downplay the importance of Parliament, hence his sanctions by the Speaker and his willingness to prorogue. He likes to act as if he was elected President.

Yes, there is less grandstanding in committee, but the 1994 version of Harper and others have argued that using omnibus legislation hamstrings committee's abilities as well.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> *Correction for screature: I did not state that there was closure for C-38. Don't know what you're on about there.*
> 
> Besides that, you dodged the question that Stephen Harper brought up in 1994, that using omnibus legislation is inherently undemocratic.
> 
> Does it make it better that you think it's "sleepy stuff"? No.
> 
> Does it make it better that you think Parliament does no "real work"? No. I think many would disagree with you on that point. Harper's tendency (and that of his supporters) in recent years has been to downplay the importance of Parliament, hence his sanctions by the Speaker and his willingness to prorogue. He likes to act as if he was elected President.
> 
> Yes, there is less grandstanding in committee, but the 1994 version of Harper and others have argued that using omnibus legislation hamstrings committee's abilities as well.



Sorry I misread what you stated.

He was doing what is the job of any leader of the Opposition, to oppose. 

Now as PM he is doing the job of any majority government, moving as much of their legislative agenda through the legislative process in as timely a manner as possible.

Trudeau did it, Mulroney did it, as did Chretien it is the way of majority governments.


----------



## i-rui

it's just more Harper talking points to distract from the real issue of their abuse of power.

"real work on legislation is done in Committee" - except that it's a *Finance* Commitee looking at the bill, and they are not qualified to judge the impact on the enviroment, immigration, fisheries, etc.... that this bill goes out of it's way to introduce.

"there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill" - because there has *never* been an Implementation Bill like *THIS* one.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it's just more Harper talking points to distract from the real issue of their abuse of power.
> 
> "real work on legislation is done in Committee" - except that it's a *Finance* Commitee looking at the bill, and they are not qualified to judge the impact on the enviroment, immigration, fisheries, etc.... that this bill goes out of it's way to introduce.
> 
> *"there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill" - because there has never been an Implementation Bill like THIS one.*


Your not fully informed i-rui there is to be a special sub-committee to look at and have expert witnesses called by all parties to specifically address the environmental aspects of the Bill.

Not to mention the Finance Committee is free to call any witnesses it chooses as are individuals, i.e. citizens free to apply to the Clerk of the Committee to testify before the Committee.

So what is your point it is getting as much attention being an omnibus bill as it would have if it were broken up into smaller Bills?


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Your not fully informed i-rui there is to be a special sub-committee to look at and have expert witnesses called by all parties to specifically address the environmental aspects of the Bill.
> 
> Not to mention the Finance Committee is free to call any witnesses it chooses as are individuals, i.e. citizens free to apply to the Clerk of the Committee to testify before the Committee.


it's a sub-committe of the *FINANCE* committee. That is who will be looking at the bill, and it will be from that perspective that the members look at it.



screature said:


> So what is your point it is getting as much attention being an omnibus bill as it would have if it were broken up into smaller Bills?


my point is that ramming through legislation in ominbus bills is a **** poor way to govern and slaps democracy in the face. That is enough to warrant the negative attention the bill is receiving.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it's a sub-committe of the *FINANCE* committee. That is who will be looking at the bill, and* it will be from that perspective that the members look at it*.


They will be looking at it in all its ramifications.




i-rui said:


> my point is that ramming through legislation in ominbus bills is a ***** poor way to govern and slaps democracy in the face. That is enough to warrant the negative attention the bill is receiving.*


So the opposition is doing its job then... if the public at large sees it as an affront to democracy then the government will pay for it in 2015.

Seems like business as usual to me when it comes to politics.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Your not fully informed i-rui there is to be a special sub-committee to look at and have expert witnesses called by all parties to specifically address the environmental aspects of the Bill.
> 
> Not to mention the Finance Committee is free to call any witnesses it chooses as are individuals, i.e. citizens free to apply to the Clerk of the Committee to testify before the Committee.
> 
> So what is your point it is getting as much attention being an omnibus bill as it would have if it were broken up into smaller Bills?


For the first time ever, Our Glorious Leader, is limiting the opposition as to which members may sit on the special sub-committee, so much for the sub-committee serving any useful purpose for the citizens.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> For the first Our Glorious Leader is limiting the opposition as to which members may sit on the special sub-committee, so much for the sub-committee serving any useful purpose for the citizens.


ALL citizens can't serve simultaneously!


----------



## CubaMark

*NDP accuses Tories of bending rules on $1-million grant for Baird associate*



> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird said he was simply helping out a constituent when he advocated for a $1-million social hall grant submitted by an Ottawa rabbi who describes the minister as a dear friend.
> 
> But the NDP says the grant is another example of how Conservative ministers are willing to bend the rules when handing out taxpayer cash.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^^

When the government is put in charge of money, this inevitably happens. You see money spent in a way that you would never spend it. The answer to this problem? Take the money back and spend it yourself on projects you think are worthwhile


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *NDP accuses Tories of bending rules on $1-million grant for Baird associate*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


Tony Clement's Gazebos or local social hall what's the difference the money is accounted for.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> ^^^^^^^
> 
> When the government is put in charge of money, this inevitably happens. You see money spent in a way that you would never spend it. The answer to this problem? Take the money back and spend it yourself on projects you think are worthwhile


Of course the libertarian fantasy utopia is not even remotely the answer to this problem. The answer to this problem is better regulation of politician's activities, and of money in politics, a government that is forced to answer to it's citizens, which all flows out of a more engaged and aware citizenry. Without citizens paying attention, we deserve the government we get.

In the past few decades we have already come a long way in ethical rules and regulations for our political representatives, it is much harder for those who are just in it for the pork to fatten themselves and their friends than it would have been a generation or two ago.

While the Harper Conservatives played to this sentiment years ago when it helped them beat the scandal-ridden Libs, promising a new transparency and accountability, they are now doing everything possible to avoid these principles.


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Of course the libertarian fantasy utopia is not even remotely the answer to this problem. The answer to this problem is better regulation of politician's activities, and of money in politics, a government that is forced to answer to it's citizens, which all flows out of a more engaged and aware citizenry. Without citizens paying attention, we deserve the government we get.
> 
> In the past few decades we have already come a long way in ethical rules and regulations for our political representatives, it is much harder for those who are just in it for the pork to fatten themselves and their friends than it would have been a generation or two ago.
> 
> While the Harper Conservatives played to this sentiment years ago when it helped them beat the scandal-ridden Libs, promising a new transparency and accountability, they are now doing everything possible to avoid these principles.


Very good points, GA ........... and all too true. I voted for the Conservatives when I believed that then MP Harper would lead the Conservatives and the country to an era of "new transparency and accountability". I was mistaken.


----------



## MacDoc

appropriate on a number of levels.....trash the environment to suit his ego.....Harper's folly XX)


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Of course the libertarian fantasy utopia is not even remotely the answer to this problem. The answer to this problem is better regulation of politician's activities, and of money in politics, a government that is forced to answer to it's citizens, which all flows out of a more engaged and aware citizenry. Without citizens paying attention, we deserve the government we get.
> 
> In the past few decades we have already come a long way in ethical rules and regulations for our political representatives, it is much harder for those who are just in it for the pork to fatten themselves and their friends than it would have been a generation or two ago.
> 
> While the Harper Conservatives played to this sentiment years ago when it helped them beat the scandal-ridden Libs, promising a new transparency and accountability, they are now doing everything possible to avoid these principles.


Yes. Why is the government even handing out so many grants that we can't keep track of them all? If you want to live in a nanny state, expect to be treated like children.


----------



## screature

*More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories*

More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories 
Winnipeg Free Press



> Stephen Harper's Conservatives have been accused of using their majority to hide too much House of Commons committee business behind closed doors.
> 
> *But an analysis of Library of Parliament data for the last decade shows the championship title for secretive committee work actually belongs to former prime minister Paul Martin's Liberals.
> 
> Harper's Tories aren't even the runners up; that honour goes to another Liberal regime, under Jean Chretien.*
> 
> The analysis of meetings from which the public was barred — known as going in camera — shows MPs deliberated in secret for an average of close to two hours a day during Martin's first and only majority session of Parliament in 2004.
> 
> According to figures provided by the Library of Parliament, committees spent close to 215 hours meeting in camera, an average of one hour and 56 minutes a day over the 111 days of that short parliamentary session.
> 
> The session, which ran from February to May 2004, is notable for being the last time the Liberals held a majority in Parliament. Martin succeeded Chretien as Grit leader at the end of 2003.
> 
> He inherited a scathing report from the auditor general into the sponsorship scandal. Martin appointed Justice John Gomery to head up a public inquiry into how the sponsorship program was handled.
> 
> The auditor general's report also triggered an inquiry before the Commons public accounts committee. Figures show public accounts spent 18 hours in camera — half that of the joint parliamentary committee on national security, which spent more than 36 hours in secret deliberations.
> 
> But MPs on the public accounts committee never got to finish their work because the Grits used their majority to shut down hearings weeks before Canadians went to the polls.
> 
> The Liberals lost their majority in the federal election of June 2004.
> 
> The second-most secretive session for parliamentary committees was the one immediately before Martin's short-lived Grit majority. During Chretien's final 2002-03 parliamentary session, MPs spent an average of one hour and 12 minutes a day in camera over the session's 408 days.
> 
> The Conservatives occupy third place on the in-camera list.
> 
> During the final 2010-11 session of Harper's minority government, committees spent close to 455 hours meeting behind closed doors during the 388-day session, which averages out to one hour and 10 minutes a day.
> 
> *The Conservatives won their coveted majority government last May. As of Friday, their first majority session has lasted 343 days and committees have so far spent nearly 328 hours in camera. That averages out to about 57 minutes a day in private meetings.
> 
> Put another way, the 57-minute average is seventh on the list of 10 parliamentary sessions since 2001...*


----------



## MacDoc

When you are stonewalling the opposition the idea is to keep it short. 




> “Respecting Parliament is key to making Parliament work. This is a prime minister who has shut down Parliament twice and does not answer questions truthfully and provide the facts to Parliament that MPs need to do our jobs.”
> Tom Lukiwski, parliamentary secretary to the Government House Leader, said the Conservatives “fundamentally and profoundly” disagree with the committee’s findings.
> He said the opposition parties had from the start planned to deliver this verdict. “The report was a foregone conclusion,” Mr. Lukiwski said.
> “We believe we have fully complied with the request of the speaker. [This is] far more about politics that it is about trying to get information.”
> The Conservative MP, also a member of the procedure committee, played down the finding of contempt.
> “Contempt, as we heard during the [committee] hearings is a very nebulous word,” Mr. Lukiwski said. “It’s almost like in the eye of the beholder. ... It can mean a lot of different things.”
> On March 9, the Speaker of the Commons issued a historic rebuke to the Conservatives for flouting the will and rights of Parliament by refusing to provide sufficient details of its justice agenda to opposition parties.
> Last week, the Conservatives grudgingly released a 4.5-centimetre-thick stack of documents on their crime bills – but this failed to placate their rivals.


interesting spin from you - still holding up the Liberals I see to justify Harper's folly....


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Dr.G. said:


> Very good points, GA ........... and all too true. I voted for the Conservatives when I believed that then MP Harper would lead the Conservatives and the country to an era of "new transparency and accountability". I was mistaken.


Unfortunately I was not mistaken. At the time I was convinced that transparency and accountability were nothing but convenient and empty promises from Harper.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Macfury said:


> Yes. Why is the government even handing out so many grants that we can't keep track of them all? If you want to live in a nanny state, expect to be treated like children.


Nobody wants a "nanny state". That phrase is nothing but a straw man set up by right wingers who care nothing for freedom, but who only want to shrink government services for economic reasons.

All bureaucracies as they get larger tend toward authoritarianism, whether in government or in large corporations. Control is in the hands of a few, accountability is absent and scores of lower level functionaries follow strict unbending rules. The answer to this is to make organizations transparent and accountable to their stakeholders, not to disband organizations that might otherwise be performing services that people want and need.

The zeal to slash services from conservatives like Harper's crew has nothing to do with preventing a so-called nanny state or improving the delivery of services. They just want to make sure that any nannies in charge are their own friends and benefactors in the private sector.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories
> Winnipeg Free Press


I wonder if during the next election in 2015 the Cons and their supporters will still be pointing out the failures of a government that was first elected over 2 decades prior as somehow making their own record OK? 

"Your lefty Grandpa did it too, so there!" they'll cry, as they triumphantly slam shut their dusty history books or refer to links only accessible using the Internet Wayback Machine. :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Unfortunately I was not mistaken. At the time I was convinced that transparency and accountability were nothing but convenient and empty promises from Harper.


"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." Our MP, Norm Doyle, promised to give up his provincial pension if he was elected to Parliament, and he did just that, giving it all to local charitites here in his St.John's East riding. Another former provincial MHA here in NL promised the same thing and was elected for the Conservatives, but when he broke his promise and kept receiving his provincial pension while earning an MP's salary, he was booted out the next election. In the 2008 election he felt that he was too much of a "red tory" for the Harper government and decided not ro run for reelection after serving in the House for 11 years.


----------



## Dr.G.

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I wonder if during the next election in 2015 the Cons and their supporters will still be pointing out the failures of a government that was first elected over 2 decades prior as somehow making their own record OK?
> 
> "Your lefty Grandpa did it too, so there!" they'll cry, as they triumphantly slam shut their dusty history books or refer to links only accessible using the Internet Wayback Machine. :lmao:


Actually, GA, this sounds like a winning strategy for the Harper Government of Canada. "Blame it on the commies and the Liberals" ........ sung to the tune of "Blame it on the Bossa Nova". We shall see. Paix, mon ami.

Eydie Gorme - Blame It On The Bossa Nova - YouTube


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> When you are stonewalling the opposition the idea is to keep it short.
> 
> *
> interesting spin from you - still holding up the Liberals I see to justify Harper's folly....*


I don't know what you are on about, I didn't spin anything. The numbers were released by the Library of Parliament and the story written by a journalist. 

It simply reveals the mistruths spouted by the opposition that this government is abusing in camera in committee meetings when in fact they rank far behind in its use...


----------



## Ottawaman

Not that far behind and they are catching up rapidly.

Committees more secretive under Chrétien, but Harper’s crew is catching up | iPolitics


----------



## MacDoc

> t simply reveals the mistruths spouted by the opposition that this government is abusing in camera in committee meetings when in fact they rank far behind in its use..


They ARE abusing the committees - stonewalling is just as abusive. No Prime Minister in Canadian history has a abused and misused parliament the way Harper has.

I suggest you catch up

Is this still a democracy? You be the judge | iPolitics

The article concludes after a long list



> As noted, abuse of the democratic process is hardly new. The decline of Canadian democracy is a long-running story. On abuse of power, the record of the Chretien government, as myself and other journalists reported at the time, was hardly pretty.
> 
> But with the billy-club governance of the Harper era, we are breaking new ground in the subverting of the democratic process. Technically we might still call it a democracy. In practice it’s a democracy in name alone.


and Chantal Hebert is correctly disgusted...



> An even more penetrating assessment of the price we all pay for the debasement of the political process is to be found in Chantal Hebert's column today, also in The Star. Entitled Ballot box seen as dead end rather than means to an end, Hebert first uses the ongoing Quebec student unrest to advance her thesis that our elected representatives are no longer looked upon as a viable source of representation, a notion which, when you think about it, strikes at the very heart of democracy:
> 
> _Their movement increasingly boils down to an extreme manifestation of a widespread disenchantment toward Canada’s elected institutions; one that is leading alienated voters of all ages and in all regions to see the ballot box as a dead end rather than as a means to an end._
> 
> Hebert then turns her sights on the Harper regime:
> 
> _*In the national capital, a government elected with barely four in every 10 votes a year ago has since been going out of its way to disenfranchise the majority that did not support it.*
> 
> Over the opening year of their majority mandate, Stephen Harper’s Conservatives have moved to discourage civic dissent — in particular but not exclusively on the environmental front.
> 
> They have replaced federal-provincial dialogue with diktats and adversarial litigation.
> 
> They have placed themselves on a collision course with the courts over the place of the rule of law in the exercise of ministerial discretion.
> 
> The concept of ministerial responsibility has been reduced to a quaint historical footnote and parliamentary accountability is on the same slippery slope.
> 
> In the House of Commons, the government has moved to stifle the input of its opposition critics at every turn, systematically curtailing debate on bills or more simply subtracting legislation from competent scrutiny by cramming it inside inflated omnibus bills.
> 
> It should surprise no one that governments who treat the rule of law as a pesky inconvenience will eventually breed the same attitude in those that they purport to legislate for._
> 
> Hebert ends her piece by referring to ours as a debased democracy.


Politics and its Discontents: The Sad Saga Of Our Declining Democracy Continues

Hebert's column
Canada News: Hébert: Ballot box seen as dead end rather than means to an end - thestar.com

and you continue to apologize for this travesty and somehow try to justify it and say it demands "respect" and is open and honest.

Horsepucky - Harper does NOT have a mandate from the majority of Canadians and he is abusing that fact and the flawed voting system that leads to it. No amount of whitewashing will change the reality that he is debasing Canadian democracy and making Canada a pariah..


----------



## Macfury

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Nobody wants a "nanny state". That phrase is nothing but a straw man set up by right wingers who care nothing for freedom, but who only want to shrink government services for economic reasons.
> 
> All bureaucracies as they get larger tend toward authoritarianism, whether in government or in large corporations. Control is in the hands of a few, accountability is absent and scores of lower level functionaries follow strict unbending rules. The answer to this is to make organizations transparent and accountable to their stakeholders, not to disband organizations that might otherwise be performing services that people want and need.
> 
> The zeal to slash services from conservatives like Harper's crew has nothing to do with preventing a so-called nanny state or improving the delivery of services. They just want to make sure that any nannies in charge are their own friends and benefactors in the private sector.


Right, Harper does NOT want to end the nanny state. You just want different nannies in charge--the transparent and accountable kind. I believe these reside in the land of unicorns.


----------



## bryanc

Except for when he's apologizing for the current band of thugs running the country, MF appears to be arguing that *no* politicians can *ever* be trusted with public money, and that there should therefore not *be* any public money. Unfortunately, he has the weight of history behind his argument, as it's nearly impossible to find an example of a politician who consistently and demonstrably fulfilled the public trust.

However this will always be true as long as human beings are running things. And, while I find the idea interesting, I'm not confident we could convince the majority of Canadians that a well-programmed (open source, of course) computer could allocate our public resources more efficiently and fairly than any people we may elect. So we will inevitably suffer the foibles of human error, and occasionally human greed.

What I think we're suffering at the hands of the Harper Government (I hesitate to even call them Conservatives anymore, as they clearly aren't interested in conserving any of the aspects of Canada I consider valuable) are the consequences of human malice and spite.

Far from being a 'nanny state' the Harper Government appears keen on doing as much damage (economic, environmental, social and with respect to our international reputation) to the country while they have this luxury of unchecked power. Presumably they all plan to bog off to cushy consulting jobs in the US or elsewhere once their mandate has expired.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> They ARE abusing the committees - stonewalling is just as abusive. No Prime Minister in Canadian history has a abused and misused parliament the way Harper has.
> 
> *I suggest you catch up*
> 
> Is this still a democracy? You be the judge | iPolitics
> 
> The article concludes after a long list
> 
> 
> 
> and Chantal Hebert is correctly disgusted...
> 
> 
> 
> Politics and its Discontents: The Sad Saga Of Our Declining Democracy Continues
> 
> Hebert's column
> Canada News: Hébert: Ballot box seen as dead end rather than means to an end - thestar.com
> 
> and you continue to apologize for this travesty and somehow try to justify it and say it demands "respect" and is open and honest.
> 
> Horsepucky - Harper does NOT have a mandate from the majority of Canadians and he is abusing that fact and the flawed voting system that leads to it. No amount of whitewashing will change the reality that he is debasing Canadian democracy and making Canada a pariah..


Get over yourself MacDoc I think I am as "caught up" as anyone else here seeing as I live it every day I don't have to resort to columnists and/or pundits for an opinion because mine in based on what I see for myself first hand.

I think you need to check your facts. I have never once said "it demands "respect" and is open and honest." I have said a lot of things about Parliamentary Procedure and shot down a lot of mistruths but never once said that.


----------



## SINC

Just saying . . .

More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories



> OTTAWA - Stephen Harper's Conservatives have been accused of using their majority to hide too much House of Commons committee business behind closed doors.
> 
> But an analysis of Library of Parliament data for the last decade shows the championship title for secretive committee work actually belongs to former prime minister Paul Martin's Liberals.
> 
> *Harper's Tories aren't even the runners up; that honour goes to another Liberal regime, under Jean Chretien.*


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/more-secret-committee-meetings-under-liberals-harpers-tories-165703273.html


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories


The fact that previous governments have been contemptuous of democracy is not an excuse for the current government. I didn't like it when the Liberals did it, and I like it even less when a party that campaigned on "transparency and accountability" does it. The hypocrisy is disgusting.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> The fact that previous governments have been contemptuous of democracy is not an excuse for the current government. I didn't like it when the Liberals did it, and I like it even less when a party that campaigned on "transparency and accountability" does it. The hypocrisy is disgusting.


It's just that we heard little about these "contemptuous" acts of secrecy from Liberal supporters on EhMac while they were occurring.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> It's just that we heard little about these "contemptuous" acts of secrecy from Liberal supporters on EhMac while they were occurring.


I don't know any "Liberal supporters" (I voted Liberal in the last election, but I did so strategically, as I believed the Liberal candidate had the best chance of defeating the Conservative), but that may be true. Regardless, it certainly is not a valid excuse for the current government to engage in the same practices, especially when they ran on a campaign of "transparency and accountability."


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I don't know any "Liberal supporters" (I voted Liberal in the last election, but I did so strategically, as I believed the Liberal candidate had the best chance of defeating the Conservative), but that may be true. Regardless, it certainly is not a valid excuse for the current government to engage in the same practices, especially when they ran on a campaign of "transparency and accountability."


Of course it isn't an excuse for them to merely carry on the practices of the previous government.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Just saying . . .
> 
> More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories
> 
> 
> 
> More secret committee meetings under Liberals than Harper's Tories - Yahoo! News Canada


Just goes to show that majority governments are inherently broken form of government.

Why people think a majority government is the best form of governance is well beyond my comprehension.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Just goes to show that majority governments are inherently broken form of government.
> 
> Why people think a majority government is the best form of governance is well beyond my comprehension.


While this was before my time coming to Canada, I personally think that some of the best social legislation came out of the Pearson minority governments.


----------



## MacDoc

I could not have said it better.......:



> I* feel ashamed to be a Canadian today.*
> 
> One of our best friends, the U.N., exhorted us Wednesday to make our “land of plenty” a prosperous place for the unacceptably large number of us who are poor.
> 
> “Canada has long been seen as a land of plenty,” Olivier De Schutter, the U.N.’s right-to-food envoy, told an Ottawa press conference.
> 
> “Yet today one in 10 [Canadian] families with a child under 6 is unable to meet their daily food needs. These rates of food insecurity are unacceptable, and it is time for Canada to adopt a national right-to-food strategy.”
> 
> None of that shames me. I know my fellow citizens want to do better. They want, for instance, Ottawa to stop reneging on Parliament’s unanimous commitment, back in 1990, to eradicate child poverty by 2000.
> 
> We already know that a poor population is an unhealthy and under-educated one. As a practical rather than ethical matter, we can’t afford that in a globally competitive world.
> 
> We know we are held back by skills shortages across vocations and regions. That poverty and subsistence incomes are a drag on economic growth, diminishing consumer purchasing power, among other things.
> 
> We know that chronic poverty is linked with cancer, diabetes, heart disease and psychiatric disorders, and with crime, substance abuse and other anti-social behaviours. And that poverty is expensive. Poverty related obesity alone – a North America-wide crisis – costs Canada an estimated $5-billion in healthcare costs and lost productivity. Canada’s productivity rate – a chief measure of economic vibrancy – lags that of many of our global rivals.
> 
> The U.N. reminder is a useful one. It echoes concerns expressed by business leaders during the awareness-raising activities of the Occupy movement, and alarming reports last year on child poverty and income inequality from the Conference Board of Canada, a business-related think tank.
> 
> No, what shames me is the churlish response of my federal government to the U.N’s honest, good-faith call to action.
> 
> Jason Kenney, Tory immigration minister and designated hitman on the admittedly scathing U.N. report, managed to put out of mind his own government’s lecturing to China on its abysmal human-rights practices, and to Washington on its folly in not promptly approving a pipeline megaproject that poses environmental risks for U.S. citizens.
> 
> “It would be our hope that the contributions that we make to the United Nations are used to help starving people in developing countries, not to give lectures to wealthy and developed countries like Canada,” Kennedy said Wednesday.
> 
> Actually, the wealthy nations could use a lecture, on, say, the 2008-09 meltdown of their quick-buck financial system that imposed a recession on the world, disproportionately afflicting developing nations.
> 
> Kenney said the U.N. itself ranks Canada among the best countries in which to live. What he didn’t say is that we’ve slid by that measure, now ranking sixth on the U.N.’s Human Development Index, trailing Norway, Australia, the Netherlands, the U.S. and New Zealand. In 1992 and from 1994 to 2000, Canada ranked first.
> 
> If anything, De Schutter was overly diplomatic about the challenges we face. Three million of us are enduring some measure of deprivation, from dire poverty to struggling to make ends meet. That includes more than 600,000 children.
> 
> We not only have a growing gap between rich and poor, but it’s growing faster in Canada than most rich countries. Our middle class hasn’t seen a pay raise in 30 years. Meanwhile, Brazil has been narrowing its income gap, by an average of 1.5 per cent a year, over the past decade.
> 
> De Schutter called Wednesday for a Canadian right-to-food strategy. Which at least bears consideration, given that the Tories have strategies for exhausting taxpayer funds on U.S. fighter jets that can’t fly, and prisons we don’t need with crime rates in sustainable decline.
> 
> We know what that strategy requires: An increase in minimum wages, affordable housing units, and enriched daycare slots, for a start. And restoring taxes to where they were in 2000. That would give Ottawa an extra $48 billion to lift our people from misery and better assure Canada’s economic prospects this century.
> 
> Weak minds react with weakness to wise counsel. There’s also the moral repugnancy in our selective regard of outside advice.
> 
> When an alarmist International Monetary Fund and Wall Street Journal declared in the mid-1990s that Canada was flirting with fiscal ruin, the Chretien government eradicated the federal deficit lickety-split. It did so largely on the backs of the poor and working poor, among the reasons Ottawa broke its promise to impoverished Canadian children.
> 
> We can recognize that double standard for what it is – a rapid response to any threat to the comfortable, but a “shoot the messenger” reaction when a friend speaks truth to us about our sins.


Food for thought: Why David Olive is ashamed to be a Canadian today - thestar.com

and our true believers in Harper want respect!!!!!!.......for him and for them....

earn it!!!!
....this kind of response by the Harper cronies to a real problem in Canada is just unacceptable.


----------



## Macfury

David Olive is the king of bleeding hearts. After billions shoved into anti-poverty programs, parents are still not feeding their kids first? Check their homes to see which ones have cell phones, new Nikes or cable TV before they cry that their kids' stomachs are empty. I'll bet that the number of kids who are going hungry because of their parents' choices far exceeds the number who have parents so poor they can't afford to eat.


----------



## screature

Hypocritical UN council sends envoy on Kafka-esque Canadian visit

From some one who isn't ashamed to be Canadian:



> Olivier De Schutter, the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to food, came to Canada at the behest of the various despots and potentates who make up the UN Human Rights Council, in order to point out what he called “unacceptable” rates of food insecurity in this country.
> 
> His visit was justified by three false premises. One, that “malnutrition” in Canada is getting worse. In fact, the prevalence of undernourishment has been constant at 5% since 1992, according to …erm, the United Nations.
> 
> Statistics Canada says the number of households in Canada experiencing food insecurity has fallen to 7.7% in 2008 from 9.2% in 2004, when the question was first asked.
> 
> The second misconception is that the poor are getting poorer. While it’s true that the bottom 20% of Canadian society are worse off in relative terms, a recent Conference Board study suggested that they are marginally better off than they were 35 years ago.
> 
> Mr. De Schutter also left the mistaken impression that there is a right to food in Canada. It’s true that Canada ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights at the General Assembly in 1948 (largely the creation of Canadian John Humphrey). Article 25 states that everyone has the right to standard of living “adequate for health and well-being … including food, clothing, housing and medical care.” But this is not part of binding international law. More importantly, there is nothing in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that grants Canadians the right to food.
> 
> Freedom of conscience, religion and peaceful assembly are protected under the Charter, as are democratic, mobility and equality rights. But social policy is exactly that – the policy of the elected government of the day – not a constitutional right.
> 
> When it comes to policy, it’s clear Mr. De Schutter should leave it to the politicians, who at least derive their power from the people, rather than an anti-democratic, bureaucratic structure. He diagnosed the problem incorrectly and applied the wrong remedy.
> 
> In the same breath, he talked about the large numbers using food banks and the high levels of obesity in Canada, two distinct problems.
> 
> His solution is to increase social assistance and minimum wage in line with the cost of living. Taxes would be imposed on fatty foods and soft drinks; land zone policy would be amended to bring fresh food outlets to “food deserts”; food subsidization programs for remote regions should be enriched, as should support for First Nations trying to access “traditional foods.”
> 
> A national food strategy should be introduced, he said, and jurisdictional competencies “shifted” to force the federal government to sign up to binding targets. “Canada has redistributed to the rich. Maybe it’s now time for Canada to redistribute to the poor,” he said.
> 
> When asked whether all this didn’t smack a little of discredited bureaucratic socialist welfare systems that are currently crumbling all over Europe, he replied that it is the countries with generous social welfare programs that have proven most robust.
> 
> When Canada’s own fiscal constraints were raised, he said “the deficit is a pretext used for limiting social benefits.”
> 
> Mr. De Schutter pointed out that the Conservative 2011 election platform also called for a National Farm and Food Strategy. That it did. But the Tory goal is to expand international markets for Canada’s agriculture sector. The Special Rapporteur recommends a shift from export markets to a more bucolic and heavily subsidized domestic existence.
> 
> His pastoral vision was welcomed by the NDP, Liberals and groups like Food Secure Canada, who advocate more support for small farmers, small-scale processors and supply management, as well as prohibition of land sales to foreigners and legislation to ensure that large retailers must source 10% of their food from local sources.
> ‘Perhaps we should rethink the $5.2-billion we send overseas to the tired, hungry, huddled masses in less fortunate countries’
> 
> Needless to say, the Harper government was none too thrilled at being lectured by one of their least favourite organizations. Jason Kenney, the Immigration Minister, called Mr. De Schutter’s visit “completely ridiculous” and said he should focus on countries with widespread hunger issues. “It’s not an intelligent use of resources,” he said.
> 
> The entire visit was Kafka-esque. If things are that bad, perhaps we should rethink the $5.2-billion we send overseas in development assistance to the tired, hungry, huddled masses in less fortunate countries.
> 
> No doubt more could be done at home by federal and provincial governments.
> 
> Ottawa’s own statistics indicate Canada’s dietary intake is an issue. Three out of four households in Newfoundland and Labrador eat less than five fruit and vegetables a day; nearly 3% of homes have reduced their food intake because of cost; more than half of Canadians are “inactive”; 60% are overweight or obese.
> 
> But there are a range of problems here that demand a multitude of policy responses. One issue is low income; another is poor dietary choice. Giving people more money without improving eating habits would surely make the situation worse.
> 
> The Book of Deuteronomy noted the poor will always be with us. That said, they would be fewer in number if more countries adopted Canada’s commitment to trade, open markets and democracy, rather than indulge the collectivist fool’s paradise imported by the UN Special Rapporteur.
> 
> It is risible that Canada, ranked eighth on The Economist’s Democracy Index, should be lectured on human rights by a representative of the UN council whose current membership includes Russia (#117), China (#141), Congo (#145), Cuba (#126) and Saudi Arabia (#161).
> 
> The United Nations should respect and protect the sovereignty of its members, not trample all over it.


MacDoc did you even read this part of your story:



> When an alarmist International Monetary Fund and Wall Street Journal declared in the mid-1990s that Canada was flirting with fiscal ruin, the Chretien government eradicated the federal deficit lickety-split.* It did so largely on the backs of the poor and working poor, among the reasons Ottawa broke its promise to impoverished Canadian children.*


Try and have a little perspective and maybe your "outrage" would carry some weight but until you are able to acknowledge the fact that situations such as hunger and poverty are long standing issues with no easy solutions for any government your indignation does not carry much weight for me as you simply want to blame every existing problem on the current administration as if the problems only started when they took office.


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## Macfury

Well said, screature. I'm ashamed to have David Olive writing for a major Canadian newspaper.


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## i-rui

> I feel ashamed to be a Canadian today.


par for the course ever since Harper took over the reins.


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## screature

Anyone who is ashamed to be a Canadian because of any current government isn't much of a Canadian in the first place IMO. Such hyperbole just says something about those individual's political proclivities who make such statements and not about their nation.

Personally for those who say such things I think they should be embarrassed.

I think Trudeau was one of the worst PMs this country has ever seen but despite his very obvious failings he could never make me be ashamed to be a Canadian as the pride in my nationality and nation extends far beyond any transient political leader.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I think Trudeau was one of the worst PMs this country has ever seen but despite his very obvious failings he could never make me be ashamed to be a Canadian as the pride in my nationality and nation extends far beyond any transient political leader.


Amen.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> par for the course ever since harper took over the reins.


+ 1


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## MacDoc

> Anyone who is ashamed to be a Canadian because of any current government isn't much of a Canadian in the first place IMO. Such hyperbole just says something about those individual's political proclivities who make such statements and not about their nation.
> 
> Personally for those who say such things I think they should be embarrassed.
> 
> I think Trudeau was one of the worst PMs this country has ever seen but despite his very obvious failings he could never make me be ashamed to be a Canadian as the pride in my nationality and nation extends far beyond any transient political leader.
> __________________


The usual apologetics - nothing new there and part of the problem.
Harper is NOT making transient changes by his own admission...he is intending to remake Canada in his Con vision..and 60%+ of Canadians don't like it.

That you trot out a long deceased Liberal as a sorry defense for Harper's actions is so telling. Pathetic hardly covers it. Does PET's spectre haunt you at night or something that you invoke his shade as some sort of "argument"?? 

When Canadian institutions and it's government do not align with the will of the majority of the citizens it IS time to be ashamed of the entire poorly designed structure and in particular it's misuse by Harper.

Once more the right wing undying worship rabble relies on perceived Liberal misdeeds to defend the crap Harper is dealing out today. How pathetic is that - first one invokes Chretien and the other Trudeau -

*Harper is eroding Canada's image as a fair and generous nation abroad and in the eyes of it's citizens. *.
... and many are ashamed of the actions of the Harper Government and of the broken democratic structure that allows it. He's catering to oil interests and right wing dogma.

It's not the Canada I was once proud of and it's going from bad to worse under Harper. Chretien has met his political equal in Harper and that's NOT a compliment to either.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> The usual apologetics - nothing new there and part of the problem.
> Harper is NOT making transient changes by his own admission...he is intending to remake Canada in his Con vision..and 60%+ of Canadians don't like it.
> 
> That you trot out a long deceased Liberal as a sorry defense for Harper's actions is so telling. Pathetic hardly covers it. Does PET's spectre haunt you at night or something that you invoke his shade as some sort of "argument"??
> 
> When Canadian institutions and it's government do not align with the will of the majority of the citizens it IS time to be ashamed of the entire poorly designed structure and in particular it's misuse by Harper.
> 
> Once more the right wing undying worship rabble relies on perceived Liberal misdeeds to defend the crap Harper is dealing out today. How pathetic is that - first one invokes Chretien and the other Trudeau -
> 
> *Harper is eroding Canada's image as a fair and generous nation abroad and in the eyes of it's citizens. *.
> ... and many are ashamed of the actions of the Harper Government and of the broken democratic structure that allows it. He's catering to oil interests and right wing dogma.
> 
> It's not the Canada I was once proud of and it's going from bad to worse under Harper. Chretien has met his political equal in Harper and that's NOT a compliment to either.


MacDoc, I don't think you read screature's post at all. He said that Trudeau's dreadful tenure as PM _did not make him ashamed of the country_. You seem to be replying to a post that never existed.

Likewise, the article you posted is full of misinformation and the problems cited by the shame-faced Mr. Olive do not actually exist.

Finally, Mr. Harper is making some changes to the country that I entirely approve of. That is his right as the winner of the election. Dragging out the old saw of 60% disapproval is disingenuous. I recall you crowing about the idea of massive new taxes on home sales in Toronto when most Torontonians disapprove of the idea. Worrying about the opinions that failing European states hold of Canada's generosity also hold no water with me. Greece was generous and they don't like that either.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Anyone who is ashamed to be a Canadian because of any current government isn't much of a Canadian in the first place IMO.


If it is legitimate to be proud of Canada when our athletes, scientists, artists, military or even government demonstrate excellence on the international stage, why is it not equally legitimate to feel ashamed when corporate puppets like Harper degrade our international reputation and move Canada towards becoming a third-world country to be exploited for its resources by multinational corporations?

My pride in being Canadian stems from Canada's history of good governance, it's people's history of generosity and hard work, our contribution to just causes, our pristine wilderness, our contributions to human knowledge, creation of great art and entertainment, and that sort of thing. If our political leadership chooses to abandon its responsibility to be a good steward of the environment, to support research and cultural endeavours, and to protect citizens from corporate greed, it diminishes Canada, and that makes me both angry and ashamed.

While I would not wish physical harm on any human being, I'd love to see Harper and his band of thugs filling out EI forms.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If it is legitimate to be proud of Canada when our athletes, scientists, artists, military or even government demonstrate excellence on the international stage, why is it not equally legitimate to feel ashamed when corporate puppets like Harper degrade our international reputation and move Canada towards becoming a third-world country to be exploited for its resources by multinational corporations?
> 
> My pride in being Canadian stems from Canada's history of good governance, it's people's history of generosity and hard work, our contribution to just causes, our pristine wilderness, our contributions to human knowledge, creation of great art and entertainment, and that sort of thing. If our political leadership chooses to abandon its responsibility to be a good steward of the environment, to support research and cultural endeavours, and to protect citizens from corporate greed, it diminishes Canada, and that makes me both angry and ashamed.


With all due respect, your pride in Canada seems rather fragile. It would be a difficult life to be burning with shame for decades at a time, with one's only relief the election of another party.

Also, your premise of Canada being turned into a third-world country is hyperbole, and not supported by fact.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> With all due respect, your pride in Canada seems rather fragile.


Not fragile, but sensitive to many inputs. My pride in Canada is also not a binary condition; it can grow and wane across a continuous spectrum. Sadly, since Harper came to power, it has been taking a beating.



> Also, your premise of Canada being turned into a third-world country is hyperbole, and not supported by fact.


It was not a premise, it was actually a quote. I was at a national scientific conference last week and one of Canada's famous scientists said this with regard to the Conservative Government's evisceration of the NSERC funding system.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It was not a premise, it was actually a quote. I was at a national scientific conference last week and one of Canada's famous scientists said this with regard to the Conservative Government's evisceration of the NSERC funding system.


It was a quote of a premise by a single individual. I would certainly expect a scientist who benefits from NSERC funding to make such a statement. It's still hyperbole.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> It was a quote of a premise by a single individual.


It certainly was reflective of the consensus of scientists at the meeting. Even the NSERC representative charged with explaining the new funding regime (in which basic research has been sacrificed in favour of industrially relevant 'strategic grants') was appalled at how Canada's once-excellent (and internationally respected) research infrastructure is being systematically dismantled and transformed into another form of corporate welfare.


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## Macfury

It is a consensus of scientists regarding pubic policy, not science. However, the spectre of transforming Canada into a Third World nation--i.e., a poverty-stricken, developing nation without a mature economic system--is absurd.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *MacDoc, I don't think you read screature's post at all. He said that Trudeau's dreadful tenure as PM did not make him ashamed of the country. You seem to be replying to a post that never existed.*
> 
> Likewise, the article you posted is full of misinformation and the problems cited by the shame-faced Mr. Olive do not actually exist.
> 
> Finally, Mr. Harper is making some changes to the country that I entirely approve of. That is his right as the winner of the election. Dragging out the old saw of 60% disapproval is disingenuous. I recall you crowing about the idea of massive new taxes on home sales in Toronto when most Torontonians disapprove of the idea. Worrying about the opinions that failing European states hold of Canada's generosity also hold no water with me. Greece was generous and they don't like that either.


Yep more of his usual twisting of other people's words to suit his tirades. He seems to think that historical context is irrelevant and that this administration marks the beginning of time... 

All politicians are transient and there is nothing done in a democracy that can't be undone. If one's pride in their country is solely based on the politicians of the day and not the long view, then all I can say is what I said before, "Such hyperbole just says something about those individual's political proclivities who make such statements and not about their nation."

Here is an article that I agree with completely...

Harper is the anti-Trudeau
Ottawa Citizen



> It seems every Canadian political columnist passed judgment on the one-year anniversary of Harper’s majority government. But, oddly enough, the punditry on the man and his vision were all over the map. To some he is an authoritarian with a bully club in his right hand, but to others just a hard-nosed PM maintaining party unity. To some he’s a principled radical and to others a moderate populist.
> 
> I have a different take. If you want to understand Stephen Harper, think Pierre Trudeau.
> 
> It’s hard to believe that Harper was once a Liberal campaign volunteer, but, somewhere in the early 1980s, Harper embraced a political mission to undo the damage that Trudeau inflicted on the country and to destroy the Liberal party in the process.
> 
> Of course, Brian Mulroney and Jean Chrétien got first crack, repudiating almost every Trudeau economic policy from unemployment insurance, runaway spending, hyper inflation, economic nationalism, and obscene levels of debt.
> 
> As a minority PM, Harper barely dented the Trudeau legacy, but in the most recent budget he was thinking about Trudeau. The funding for Katimavik, the national youth learning organization Trudeau helped establish in 1977, went from $15 million to zero in one fell swoop.
> 
> While Trudeau was instrumental in getting oilsands development off the ground, he decimated the oilpatch with the National Energy Program. He also tapped Justice Thomas Berger to head the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry in 1974, which killed the project. Harper is a vocal advocate of not one, but two pipelines: Keystone XL to the United States and a Pacific pipeline that would bring oil to the West coast for export to Asia. It’s a safe bet that Trudeau’s Mackenzie Valley Inquiry, which involved 14 full participant groups and produced 283 volumes of evidence, is not what Harper has in mind with his “one project-one review” environmental assessment process that was announced in the recent budget.
> 
> Trudeau was never happier than when pursuing a strong central government and invading areas of provincial jurisdiction. When told in 1983 that the proposed Canada Health Act would anger the provinces, he told his health minister “That’s a sure win.” As a prime minister with a majority government, Harper didn’t even bother to negotiate with provinces when the Canada Health Transfer recently came up for renewal.
> 
> Over his 15.5 years in office, Trudeau held 23 face-to-face meetings with his provincial counterparts. In over six years in office, Harper met first ministers only once, in private, and that was in 2008.
> 
> The Constitution was a Trudeau obsession from the time he served as a bureaucrat in the Privy Council Office in 1949 until the early 1990s, when he decisively intervened to defeat the Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords. Harper would give up singing the Beatles before messing with the Constitution.
> 
> In some ways Trudeau was more comfortable in Moscow than in Washington. The animosity went both ways: Richard Nixon called Trudeau an “asshole,” and Trudeau called Ronald Reagan an “imbecile.” Harper understands there is nothing in it for Canada to insult our best customer and most important ally.
> 
> When the time comes, don’t expect Harper to attend Fidel Castro’s funeral just because the Cuban dictator was an honorary pallbearer for Trudeau. When Trudeau died, Cuba declared three days of public mourning and flags were flown at half-staff. A few weeks ago, Castro penned an 1,100-word column denouncing Harper’s policies.
> 
> Trudeau handed out taxpayer dollars to Liberal-friendly special interest and advocacy groups. Harper is cutting taxpayer-dependent advocacy groups loose, telling them to fend for themselves.
> 
> Trudeau loved the ballet and schmoozing with artsy types. Harper prefers hockey games and shuns the star-studded black-tie galas.
> 
> Trudeau moved our immigration policies away from labour and economic needs and towards “family reunification,” winning fidelity from ethnic communities in the process. Harper is shifting our immigration back toward meeting our economic needs.
> 
> Trudeau thought that unemployed Canadians should sit tight and wait for the jobs to come to them. In the most recent budget, the signal was sent by Harper that EI benefits could be impacted for those who refuse to widen their geographic job search.
> 
> Trudeau eviscerated the military. Harper restored both its pride and budget.
> 
> While the death penalty was given last rites under Trudeau, Harper has not exerted himself to patriate a Canadian on death row in the U.S.
> 
> Of course, there are similarities between the 15th and 22nd prime ministers. They are both highly political and as tough as nails. When reporters asked Trudeau if he was worried about internal dissension over his leadership he replied, “If I found in my own ranks that a certain number of guys wanted to cut my throat, I’d make sure I cut their throats first.” When Trudeau was asked about his political strategy of dividing opponents, he said, “If you couldn’t … you shouldn’t be in politics. If it’s called manipulative, then so be it.” On the desire to win, there is not much to choose between Harper and Trudeau.
> 
> Whatever remnants of the Trudeau legacy that remain are cemented in the Constitution, but, on the meaning of Constitution, a few more of Harper’s Supreme Court appointments can make a world of difference.
> 
> Read more: Harper is the anti-Trudeau


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It is a consensus of scientists regarding pubic policy, not science. However,* the spectre of transforming Canada into a Third World nation--i.e., a poverty-stricken, developing nation without a mature economic system--is absurd.*


Truly absurd and irrational hyperbole.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> With all due respect, your pride in Canada seems rather fragile. It would be a difficult life to be burning with shame for decades at a time, with one's only relief the election of another party.
> 
> Also, your premise of Canada being turned into a third-world country is hyperbole, and not supported by fact.


+1 Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## i-rui

bryanc said:


> My pride in Canada is also not a binary condition; it can grow and wane across a continuous spectrum.


yes that's exactly it. I can also separate my Love for the country, with the pride i feel about everything it does.

I'm of Portuguese decent, and I love Portugal and have a lot of pride in it, however that doesn't negate the fact that there are certain things in it's history which i've ashamed of (much of what happened in it's African colonies was terrible).

In the same way i Love Canada, and am proud of much of our history, but there are moments which i am ashamed of (the Japanese Internment Camps of WW2 for example, and now much of the Harper government actions).

I'd hate to be a nation of flag wavers and chest beaters, so full of ourselves to not see our own shortcomings and try to improve ourselves. Many Americans have that sort of attitude, and this "never apologize for america / love it or leave it" attitude has not served that nation well.


----------



## bryanc

i-rui said:


> I'd hate to be a nation of flag wavers and chest beaters, so full of ourselves to not see our own shortcomings and try to improve ourselves. Many Americans have that sort of attitude, and this "never apologize for america / love it or leave it" attitude has not served that nation well.


Indeed. It does seem that black-and-white thinking is common among conservatives; the subtleties of gradients and complex relationships seems to be too much for many of them.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> yes that's exactly it. I can also separate my Love for the country, with the pride i feel about everything it does.
> 
> I'm of Portuguese decent, and I love Portugal and have a lot of pride in it, however that doesn't negate the fact that there are certain things in it's history which i've ashamed of (much of what happened in it's African colonies was terrible).
> 
> In the same way i Love Canada, and am proud of much of our history, but there are moments which* i am ashamed of (the Japanese Internment Camps of WW2* for example, and now much of the Harper government actions).
> 
> I'd hate to be a nation of flag wavers and chest beaters, so full of ourselves to not see our own shortcomings and try to improve ourselves. Many Americans have that sort of attitude, and this "never apologize for america / love it or leave it" attitude has not served that nation well.


I see it differently. There are periods in a nations history where the actions of a given government may be considered to be shameful but why should I as a citizen who had nothing to do with those decisions be ashamed of them. At worst it points to the unethical or immoral behaviour of those involved but I will not bear the burden of those sins. 

A given government is not the country nor do they even necessarily represent the majority view of the citizenry of that country. If there is shame to be born it should rightful be born by that government. I may be disheartened or displeased or even angry with a given governments actions such as I was in the Trudeau era but even he could not make me be ashamed to be a Canadian.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Indeed. It does seem that black-and-white thinking is common among conservatives; the subtleties of gradients and complex relationships seems to be too much for many of them.


No in fact it is the left that is making it out to be black and white, either the government does what I support and then I have pride in my country or they don't and then I am ashamed of my country. *That *is black and white and binary and " the subtleties of gradients and complex relationships seems to be too much for many of them."


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> I see it differently. There are periods in a nations history where the actions of a given government may be considered to be shameful but why should I as a citizen who had nothing to do with those decisions be ashamed of them.


I understand, and at least partially agree with your point. But reverse the logic, if you agree that the performance of Canadian athletes at the olympics (for example) is a valid source of national pride, and you don't personally have anything to do with those athletes (apart from providing some support through your tax dollars), why should you not be equally ashamed of the behaviour or your representatives, wether you voted for them or not.

I don't feel personally ashamed of what Harper is doing to Canada, but I do think that he is damaging the aspects of Canada that allow me to take pride in our country. So his decisions move my feelings about Canada towards the shame end of the pride-shame spectrum. The faster we can get rid of him the better.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I understand, and at least partially agree with your point. But reverse the logic, *if you agree that the performance of Canadian athletes at the olympics (for example) is a valid source of national pride*, and you don't personally have anything to do with those athletes (apart from providing some support through your tax dollars), why should you not be equally ashamed of the behaviour or your representatives, wether you voted for them or not.
> 
> I don't feel personally ashamed of what Harper is doing to Canada, but I do think that he is damaging the aspects of Canada that allow me to take pride in our country. So his decisions move my feelings about Canada towards the shame end of the pride-shame spectrum. The faster we can get rid of him the better.


I don't agree. Many would but personally I feel no pride when a Canadian athlete or team does well at the Olympics. I am well pleased and happy because they are who I am cheering for, but I feel no sense of pride what so ever as their accomplishments are not mine. I am simply happy and pleased for them.

For me no politician can change the way I feel about my country. Their actions and policies can only change the way I feel about them and possibly their party... but even there, there are so many shades of grey as leaders are not completely representative of all the members of their party or always do what even the majority of their backbenchers may want them to do. 

In a whipped political system such as ours it is very commonly forgotten that the reality is that for all intents and purposes Cabinet makes up the Government as they have all the power, so even when the government is doing something that displeases you it is really a handful of people that is responsible for that. Backbenchers have had no say in the forming of legislation and when it comes time to vote they either have to tow the party line, cross the floor or sit as independent, options that very few will take because when taken on the whole they agree with party policy more than they disagree and so they tow the line even though they may strongly disagree with a specific piece of legislation.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Yep more of his usual twisting of other people's words to suit his tirades.."


 Of all the posters; to "call out" another poster on, well it's like the pot calling the hash dope, least ways in my estimation.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Of all the posters; to "call out" another poster on, well it's like the pot calling the hash dope, least ways in my estimation.


:yawn:


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## i-rui

Election result in Toronto riding thrown out by judge - Politics - CBC News

good to see our legal system taking this step in keeping our election results legitimate.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Election result in Toronto riding thrown out by judge - Politics - CBC News
> 
> good to see our legal system taking this step in keeping our election results legitimate.


Checks and balances is what our political and judicial system is all about and why it works, despite those who would wish to discredit it... looks like a by-election will be happening in the near future.

Given the current political climate Opitz will most likely need to be looking for another job... unless the Supreme Court overrules this judgment.

Time will tell.


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## i-rui

good for a friday afternoon chuckle :










Nude Harper painting gets chilly online reception - Your Community


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## screature

i-rui said:


> good for a friday afternoon chuckle :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nude Harper painting gets chilly online reception - Your Community


Well it is a decent satirical work and for the most part well painted but the artists understanding of anatomy is decidedly lacking as the ankle joint is just all wrong.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Checks and balances is what our political and judicial system is all about and why it works, despite those who would wish to discredit it... looks like a by-election will be happening in the near future.
> 
> Given the current political climate Opitz will most likely need to be looking for another job... unless the Supreme Court overrules this judgment.
> 
> Time will tell.


I'm sure Optiz could go through the same records and find enough suspicious ballots to push the results in the opposite direction.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Well it is a decent satirical work and for the most part well painted but the artists understanding of anatomy is decidedly lacking as the ankle joint is just all wrong.


Strange, when I saw this on the CBC website, I knew something looked odd ........ it is a strange and irregular ankle joint. Good observation, screature.

I also thought how lucky not to have a dachshund in the picture ...... since dachshund comes from the German for "badger dog" ............ but are called "weiner dogs" here in Canada. XX)


----------



## CubaMark

*Harper government funded study arguing Canada suffers from "Dutch Disease"*



> The Harper government has funded research that argues Canada’s economy suffers from so-called Dutch Disease, an economic theory the prime minister and other senior officials ridiculed when raised recently by NDP Leader Tom Mulcair.
> 
> Industry Canada paid $25,000 to three academics to produce the lengthy study, which is about to be published in a prestigious journal, Resource and Energy Economics.
> 
> The department also helped the trio build a database so they could investigate Dutch Disease, the theory that a resource boom that drives up the value of a country’s currency can damage the manufacturing sector.
> 
> The paper, “Does the Canadian Economy Suffer from Dutch Disease?,” concludes that a third or more of job losses in Canada’s manufacturing sector can be attributed to resource-driven currency appreciation.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

"Dutch Disease" is a bogus theory int this respect. The success of Ontario's manufacturing and export sector could also have driven up the value of our currency, dmaging the energy sector--problem is, our manufacturing sector is not competitive enough. I'll take the energy job boom, thanks!


----------



## screature

Seems on how you want to spin it doesn't it....



> Dutch Disease or failure to compete: A Diagnosis of Canada's manufacturing woes?


IRPP Report



> The continuing global energy boom that began in the early 2000s has brought significant economic benefits to Canada in the form of strong growth in national income, relatively low unemployment and (until the recession) healthy public finances. These benefits are especially evident in the energy-rich provinces.
> 
> But a booming energy sector may contribute to a strengthening of the currency, which in turn cause lower and unbalanced growth in trade-intensive sectors (particularly manufacturing). This so-called “Dutch disease,” which takes its name from the phenomenon observed in the Netherlands in the 1970s, has been widely blamed for the woes of the manufacturing sector, which is concentrated in central Canada.
> 
> There has been relatively little rigorous analysis of the linkages between energy prices, the exchange rate and manufacturing output in Canada. In this study, Mohammad Shakeri, Richard S. Gray and Jeremy Leonard examine these linkages for 80 different manufacturing industries using an empirical model that accounts for changes in global demand and competitive pressures as well as energy-induced strengthening of the dollar.
> 
> *The results are more nuanced than conventional wisdom would suggest. Only 25 of the 80 industries *(accounting for about one-quarter of total manufacturing output) show a significant negative relationship between the US-Canada exchange rate and output. *The effects are most pronounced in small labour-intensive industries such as textiles and apparel. Larger industry groups such as food products, metals and machinery are much less adversely affected by the strong dollar, and these minor problems have generally been offset by strong growth in demand. Interestingly, automotive industries do not show symptoms of the Dutch disease; their weakness stems from cyclical changes in demand and lagging productivity growth.*
> 
> *On balance, the evidence indicates that Canada suffers from a mild case of the Dutch disease*, which warrants a commensurate policy response. It is difficult to implement national policies to directly counteract the rising exchange rate (policies such as investing resource revenues in foreign assets, as Norway does), because resource revenues are under provincial jurisdiction. However, *Ottawa can use additional federal tax revenues stemming from natural resource booms to invest in infrastructural and other activities that bolster the competitiveness of the manufacturing sector as a whole*.
> 
> The resource-rich *provinces* would also be well advised to adopt policies to ensure that neither public finances nor the economy becomes too dependent on natural resources, because history has shown that prices and demand can fluctuate widely and suddenly. Avoiding such dependence will help ensure that the resource blessing currently enjoyed by some regions does not become a curse for the country.


Seems to be a mild case of the flu rather than the caner that Mulcair is want to portray it. The NDP want to take on the typical centralized big government attitude to make national programs and take away the constitutioanl jurisdictional authority of the provinces over *their* resources a la Trudeau when he decimated the oilpatch with the National Energy Program.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

i-rui said:


> good for a friday afternoon chuckle :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nude Harper painting gets chilly online reception - Your Community


Memo from the PMO press secretary:



Lord Highest PMO Vizier said:


> We commend the Emperor on his resplendent new suit of clothes. The gold silk brocade is the finest quality, the patterns and colours are unmatched by anything previously created, the fit is impeccable and this suit is only surpassed by the Right Honourable Emperor's own magnificence.
> 
> As we know, his new suit of clothes are invisible to only the unpardonably stupid, left-wing radicals and their supporters, eco-terrorists and those unfit for high office. As is evident in the painting the Emperor is justifiably proud of his fabulous new attire which proves his judgement on all matters is of the highest calibre.
> 
> A new national holiday will be declared, so Canadians can freely admire our Emperor in his new suit of clothes at a public fete.
> 
> [Redact this prior to release: note to PMO staff] Ensure no loud mouth children are in attendance - or if they are children of our supporters ensure that they are fitted with suitable muzzles.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Memo from the PMO press secretary:


See you're jammin' off of the piece of satire published in the G&M... 

What would Canada look like in 2015 if Harper is still Prime Minister? 

Personally I thought it was pretty lame ... now if it was a piece of irony based on the musings of the FUDP I would have found it to be very funny indeed.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> See you're jammin' off of the piece of satire published in the G&M...
> 
> What would Canada look like in 2015 if Harper is still Prime Minister?
> 
> Personally I thought it was pretty lame ... now if it was a piece of irony based on the musings of the FUDP I would have found it to be very funny indeed.


I honestly hadn't seen it, but when I looked at the painting, that seemed to be the obvious connection.

EDIT: Skimmed your your link from May 11th, not sure what the connection would be there. I looked up the Hans Christian Andersen fable of the Emperor's New Suit (usually known as the Emperors New Clothes) to ensure I was remembering the story correctly. Hans Christian Andersen: The Emperor?s New Suit


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I honestly hadn't seen it, but when I looked at the painting, that seemed to be the obvious connection.
> 
> EDIT: Skimmed your your link from May 11th, not sure what the connection would be there. I looked up the Hans Christian Andersen fable of the Emperor's New Suit (usually known as the Emperors New Clothes) to ensure I was remembering the story correctly. Hans Christian Andersen: The Emperor?s New Suit


I guess I will have to take you at your word.... You must admit the similarities are striking in terms of style.

Glad your memory is so good... I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> I guess I will have to take you at your word.... You must admit the similarities are striking in terms of style.
> 
> Glad your memory is so good... I have no idea what you are talking about.


I thought everyone knew the story of the Emperors New Clothes. Maybe I'm just getting too old :yikes:. It's a story that is often connected to political comment and satire.


----------



## screature

I know the story and will not parlais re: your condescension. 

I just fail to see the relevance to anything I have posted, perhaps your desire to be clever has outstripped the need to be relevant.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

i-rui said:


> good for a friday afternoon chuckle :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nude Harper painting gets chilly online reception - Your Community


The image of the nude painting of Stephen Harper has been removed (I presume by ehMax or another moderator) and therefore people looking at this thread might not know what we are discussing. The link to the CBC in i-rui's post quoted above, will show the painting image.

Not sure why it needed to be removed, since the painting has been published in all major media (with appropriate blurring of nether regions), and often placed right next to other paintings of nude human beings for comparison, with no blurring of naughty bits. 

Anyway, it's ehMax's call as to whether to remove it or not, but I think most people understand that it wasn't pornography or anything like that, but a fictional painting of an imaginary scene.


----------



## screature

Strange GA I am still seeing it.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

screature said:


> Strange GA I am still seeing it.


What I'm getting is this:










Could it be that because I'm no longer a paid member of ehMac?


----------



## screature

Really odd indeed. I am still seeing the photo. I doubt that it would becuase you are no longer a paid member but who knows. Maybe a mod could chime in with an explanation.


----------



## kps

No, you're good sauce. The image has been removed. 

What screature probably saw was a cached image.


----------



## kps

screature said:


> Really odd indeed. I am still seeing the photo. I doubt that it would becuase you are no longer a paid member but who knows. May be a mod could chime in with an explanation.


I'm seeing same as sauce.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> No, you're good sauce. The image has been removed.
> 
> What screature probably saw was a *cached image*.





kps said:


> I'm seeing same as sauce.


Right you are kps. I cleared my cache and restarted Firefox and now I am seeing the same thing... the image has been removed.


----------



## i-rui

wow. i'm kind of shocked.


----------



## SINC

I saw the image here after seeing it elsewhere and found nothing that would lead me to believe it should have been censored. It's a bit of art, that's it and any fool can find it online so who are we fooling by censoring it here?


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> wow. i'm kind of shocked.


As am I. Especially considering the 'naughty bit' was blurred. Shame.


----------



## Macfury

If it was removed by staff or management, I'm also shocked.


----------



## i-rui

perhaps the CBC altered the image's web address, and that's the reason it's no longer showing up? the address in the original post doesn't work if i try to use it on it's own.

i just can't see a mod doing it here on ehmac. i don't think this forum has ever been that heavy handed.


----------



## CubaMark

Always interesting to see what's at the forefront of political concern for some Canadians.... (see above  )

One would think this would have more prominence:

*Quebec student protests: Hundreds arrested as tuition protesters defy emergency law Bill 78*












> a weekend marked by violence and vandalism. The unrest reached a climax with a blaze of plastic traffic cones and construction materials lit Saturday during a melee on a busy downtown street.
> 
> Meanwhile, police came under criticism on Sunday over an altercation caught on video that shows patrons on a bar patio getting pepper sprayed.





> Surveillance footage, played in a loop on one of Quebec’s all-news stations, shows several people sprayed by riot police at close range. Customers are seen scrambling to get inside the bar as a police officer knocks over tables and chairs.


(NationalPost)


----------



## Macfury

They should be more careful with patrons as they arrest the other bums. "I wants free tuition so I'll destroy your property." Sad.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Always interesting to see what's at the forefront of political concern for some Canadians.... (see above  )


Maybe because it is Quebec politics....

Personally I think they are a bunch of spoiled brats who already pay the lowest tuition fees for undergrad studies in Canada. 

Effectively their fees are subsidized on the backs of the have provinces who pay transfer payment to Quebec and have higher tuition fees. If anyone should be upset it should be students in Alberta, BC, and Saskatchewan.

Even the populace of Quebec thinks the same by a 2/3rd majority.



> ...Polling suggests Mr. Charest has public opinion on his side: A CROP survey published on Saturday said two-thirds of Quebeckers, tiring of a conflict that has beamed near daily images of helmeted riot police and masked protesters into their homes night after night, back the Charest government’s hard line...


G&M

The feeling of entitlement is just plain sickening IMO.

Average undergraduate tuition fees for Canadian full-time students, by province


----------



## i-rui

CubaMark said:


> Always interesting to see what's at the forefront of political concern for some Canadians.... (see above  )


wow. 

i just have to say i found this incredibly rude. The painting of Harper wasn't at "the forefront of political concern" for me. I doubt it was for anyone else here as well. it was just a fun post in this thread, and people commented on it.

sorry if you don't deem it worthy of discussion. on the positive side at least you were able to come into the thread and act sanctimonious.

On the subject of the protests in Quebec, i am disturbed by it on many fronts. The way the politicians and media have been able to frame the discussion bothers me. If people look at the specifics of the Quebec tuition rates vs other provinces then the Students DO end up looking like spoiled brats. However if we look at the larger issue of post secondary education being available to middle class students the statistics bear out that less and less of them are being able to enrol, and graduate. Statistics also point to the fact that the middle class is shrinking, and future generations will make comparatively less. All this adds up to the scenario where less and less canadians will be able to attend college or university, and this SHOULD be a major concern for all Canadians. But of course the student protestors do themselves no favour with violence, as it undermines any chance of their point being heard (even though i think it's just a small percentage).

On the subject of the new laws in Quebec, they're dangerous. Everyone should be concerned when laws are created overnight.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> wow.
> 
> i just have to say i found this incredibly rude. The painting of Harper wasn't at "the forefront of political concern" for me. I doubt it was for anyone else here as well. it was just a fun post in this thread, and people commented on it.
> 
> sorry if you don't deem it worthy of discussion. on the positive side at least you were able to come into the thread and act sanctimonious.
> 
> On the subject of the protests in Quebec, i am disturbed by it on many fronts. The way the politicians and media have been able to frame the discussion bothers me. If people look at the specifics of the Quebec tuition rates vs other provinces then the Students DO end up looking like spoiled brats.* However if we look at the larger issue of post secondary education being available to middle class students the statistics bear out that less and less of them are being able to enrol, and graduate.* Statistics also point to the fact that the middle class is shrinking, and future generations will make comparatively less. All this adds up to the scenario where less and less canadians will be able to attend college or university, and this SHOULD be a major concern for all Canadians. But of course the student protestors do themselves no favour with violence, as it undermines any chance of their point being heard (even though i think it's just a small percentage).
> 
> On the subject of the new laws in Quebec, they're dangerous. Everyone should be concerned when laws are created overnight.



Cmon i-rui Quebec tuition rates are some of lowest in the world... at $2500 it is still very affordable even for the middle class. This is almost the same as what I paid in the mid to late 80' to get my undergrad degree at Ottawa U. This is the result of a culture of entitlement in Quebec.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Cmon i-rui Quebec tuition rates are some of lowest in the world... at $2500 it is still very affordable even for the middle class. This is almost the same as what I paid in the mid to late 80' to get my undergrad degree at Ottawa U. This is the result of a culture of entitlement in Quebec.


In addition, as I understand it, one of the stated reasons for increasing tuition in Quebec is to allow more money to go to improving the quality of education at Quebec's post-secondary schools... more money to the schools to get better schools. 

That hardly sounds like an outrageous position to me.


----------



## i-rui

as i said before, if that's the way the argument is framed then most people will agree with you. I'm looking at the larger issue of post secondary education in the country. Many of my fellow students from high-school went to study in Montreal because tuition was lower, and cost of living was lower than going away in Ontario (unless you still lived at home). I imagine even more students from across the country do the same now.

With the middle class shrinking, and tuition going up the problem will only get worse.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> as i said before, if that's the way the argument is framed then most people will agree with you. I'm looking at the larger issue of post secondary education in the country. Many of my fellow students from high-school went to study in Montreal because tuition was lower, and cost of living was lower than going away in Ontario (unless you still lived at home). I imagine even more students from across the country do the same now.
> 
> With the middle class shrinking, and tuition going up the problem will only get worse.


We're talking an increase of about $350/year on tuition that is already much less than half of what it costs in Ontario. 

Sure, university costs have outpaced inflation in most places.... but not in Quebec. 

I don't disagree that there's a larger issue of increasing post-secondary costs (along with the related issue of the value of post-secondary education) but Quebec is not a good place to take a stand on it.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> as i said before, if that's the way the argument is framed then most people will agree with you. I'm looking at the larger issue of post secondary education in the country. Many of my fellow students from high-school went to study in Montreal because tuition was lower, and cost of living was lower than going away in Ontario (unless you still lived at home). I imagine even more students from across the country do the same now.
> 
> With the middle class shrinking, and tuition going up the problem will only get worse.


The way the argument is framed is completely reasonable. The increases being proposed are modest.

I heard a report on CBC radio yesterday that outlined the French/English divide on the issue in Quebec. French speaking University students are by far and large the biggest proponents of the strikes. Apparently out of over 22,000 full and part time students at McGill only 40 students voted in favour of the strikes.

This is not a class divide, it is a cultural divide/political divide... some people expect the sun, the moon and the stars for nothing, while others realize you have to work for it and pay your fair share as you are the one who is personally benefiting.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> We're talking an increase of about $350/year on tuition that is already much less than half of what it costs in Ontario.
> 
> Sure, university costs have outpaced inflation in most places.... but not in Quebec.
> 
> I don't disagree that there's a larger issue of increasing post-secondary costs (along with the related issue of the value of post-secondary education)* but Quebec is not a good place to take a stand on it.*


Exactly. Especially when you look at the costs of tuition in Canada, never mind Quebec, compared to other nations, internationally Canada is still very affordable.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Exactly. Especially when you look at the costs of tuition in Canada, never mind Quebec, compared to other nations, internationally Canada is still very affordable.


Canadian students actually end up with more student debt than American students. Although tuition is higher in the states, there is also more student aid. It's a sort of shell game.

Is the U.S. tuition system more progressive? – - Macleans OnCampus


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> In addition, as I understand it, one of the stated reasons for increasing tuition in Quebec is to allow more money to go to improving the quality of education at Quebec's post-secondary schools... more money to the schools to get better schools.
> 
> That hardly sounds like an outrageous position to me.


A valid point, Sonal. A rising educational tide raises all learner boats.

I know here at Memorial, which has the second lowest tuition in Canada, we are able to keep tuition low due to two facts -- MUN profs only recently got to the median average of professors in the Atlantic provinces, and that we have had a huge influx of money into the university from the oil companies. As part of the royalty deal, the various oil companies that are involved in the off-shore oil wells have to provide some of their profits to the university in the way of research grants, new buildings, research chairs, etc. These billions have helped the province to freeze tuition, and to get profs at all levels (e.g., assistant, associate, full professor) from being in the bottom 3% of professor salaries, compared to all other universities in Canada, to about 40% of the national average. 

Our students here at Memorial support tuition freezes and we have had that situation for the past five years. Student fees have gone up a bit, but only about $150 a year in total, but part of this gives them a free gym membership at The Works, which is a state-of-the-art sports/recreation/workout facility that Memorial University owns and operates.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Canadian students actually end up with more student debt than American students. Although tuition is higher in the states, there is also more student aid. It's a sort of shell game.
> 
> Is the U.S. tuition system more progressive? – - Macleans OnCampus


The US is one country out of hundreds internationally...

Personally I have always been in favour of removing the banks in Canada from student loans as they are guaranteed by the the government to the banks anyway... or at least they were in my day.

What I am in favour of is the government lending students the money at the prime rate of the day and the money is paid back to the government directly, no 3rd party... get the banks out of the equation...

I had to pay my loans back at 11.75% becuase of the time that I was going to university, the payments were the equivalent of another rent at the time.

I worked, as I had no grants as my parents made too much money (but not enough to pay for me to go to school), and due to my academic standing I also received bursaries.

I personally don't think it should be too easy to go through University as then you don't appreciate what you are getting and you can slide on through or fail (a complete waste for everyone) and never be a productive member of society... all on the tax payers dime. 

Sorry I can and never will support such a system of education at a post secondary level.


----------



## Dr.G.

Went to check out Memorial's website page re tuition, and found an interesting bit prior to the listing of the hard numbers --

"Tuition & Fees
ST. JOHN'S CAMPUS
Our provincial government continues to subsidize tuition, giving Memorial one of the lowest tuition fees in the country. That means it is more affordable for local, national and international students to come to Memorial. Combine that with the fact that St. John's has one of the lowest cost of living rates of all the capital cities in Canada and you'll realize that you can afford to go east."

We have been seeing a large influx of students into all of our undergrad programs from all provinces, and a large influx of students into the Faculty of Education from NS and ON. NS students pay about three times what our students do to walk away with a BA or BS and a B.Ed. Students in ON are facing difficulty getting into faculties of education in ON, and find that it is easier to get into MUN's Fac. of Ed. due to the fact that students from NL are realizing that they might not get a job teaching here in NL. However, students from NS, ON, et al, realize that we offer a quality degree that can be taken anywhere in Canada and be accepted for provincial certification.


----------



## kps

No wonder that these kids don't want to pay more...just look at what a university degree is worth these days.

I was talking to my niece the other day and she said you pretty much have to go for your masters these days.

Note: post is somewhat tungue-in-cheek


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> No wonder that these kids don't want to pay more...just look at what a university degree is worth these days.
> 
> I was talking to my niece the other day and she said you pretty much have to go for your masters these days.


Sad, but you are most likely correct, kps. The undergrad degree today is like the high school diploma 30+ years ago.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Sad, but you are most likely correct, kps. The undergrad degree today is like the high school diploma 30+ years ago.


I have a friend (56) who's at the top of his game, but because he does not have that piece of paper will never get that VP spot or higher.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> wow.
> 
> i just have to say i found this incredibly rude. The painting of Harper wasn't at "the forefront of political concern" for me. I doubt it was for anyone else here as well. it was just a fun post in this thread, and people commented on it.


Any discussion of political interests not directly serving the Marxist dialectic is theft, i-rui.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> I have a friend (56) who's at the top of his game, but because he does not have that piece of paper will never get that VP spot or higher.


I find that unfair. I have four university degrees, but I don't see why that should qualify me for various positions over someone with the expertise and not the degree.


----------



## Ottawaman

screature said:


> Exactly. Especially when you look at the costs of tuition in Canada, never mind Quebec, compared to other nations, internationally Canada is still very affordable.





> *International Comparisons of Affordability*
> 
> For the most part, the research demonstrates that postsecondary education in Canada is less affordable than in most other OECD countries, including the United States. In Usher and Cervenan’s 2005 comparison of affordability among 16 nations, Canada is ranked 9th and 10th on the two most comprehensive measures: “net costs after-tax expenditures” and “out-of-pocket costs.”
> 
> The first measure refers to the total cost of education (tuition, books, fees, and living expenses) minus all non-repayable assistance (grants and tax deductions) as a ratio of GDP (used as a proxy for income, or the ability to pay the costs of education). The results demonstrate that grants and tax deductions make education more affordable for North Americans, but not to an extent that is comparable to European levels.
> 
> The second measure, out-of-pocket costs, is the same as the first except that average loan amounts are included as a deduction from total costs. Hence, this measure does not represent costs accurately because loans must be repaid; rather, it is a measure of short-term or immediate costs. Only 10 of the 16 countries offer loans and, of these, only Canada, Japan, and Germany do not offer universal loans to all who apply. The assistance that Canada offers is primarily (just under 60%) in the form of student loans, but despite this, Canada remains in 9th position (tied with the United States), because other countries provide even greater assistance in the form of student loans.


http://www.cmec.ca/Publications/Lists/Publications/Attachments/102/TandemLiteratureReview.en.pdf

You seem sure of your statement, but there seems to be room for doubt. I'm sure it fits your personal narrative though.


----------



## Macfury

Four degrees, Dr. G? Certainly that disqualifies you from holding political office!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Four degrees, Dr. G? Certainly that disqualifies you from holding political office!


No, I don't think that this is true ............ but my refusal to swear allegiance to the Queen would prevent me from holding a federal position in Parliament.

When I became a Canadian citizen, I did not say the part of affirming my allegiance to the Queen and all of her heirs and successors. I replaced the part "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors" with "I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to The Constitution of Canada and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms". I said this directly in front of the person giving all of us the Oath of Citizenship to repeat, and I said it loud and clear. I was the only one of the 35 new Canadians that day at the ceremony who knew (or was willing to sing out loud) all the words to "O Canada", which I did with my hand over my heart. So, after all these years, no one has shown up at my door wanting to deport me, so I guess I am still a Canadian citizen. :clap::love2::clap: 

To hold public office on a federal level, I believe that you have to swear something similar to the Oath of Citizenship -- "I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen."


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> I find that unfair. I have four university degrees, but I don't see why that should qualify me for various positions over someone with the expertise and not the degree.


Beats me DrG. He's well known in his field and in demand by headhunters and companies. The one bit we chuckled over was when he told me that several employer's HR people told him his title can not be VP or higher because he lacks a degree...any degree. So he makes as much as a VP or more, being a <insert title made up by HR peon with a degree>.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Beats me DrG. He's well known in his field and in demand by headhunters and companies. The one bit we chuckled over was when he told me that several employer's HR people told him his title can not be VP or higher because he lacks a degree...any degree. So he makes as much as a VP or more, being a <insert title made up by HR peon with a degree>.


Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., an academic whom I admired for years, never finished his Ph.D. degree. He graduated summa cum laude from Harvard at the age of 20, and was there to get his master's degree as well. Then, when he was going to bypass a master's degree program and start his doctoral studies at Harvard, WW II broke out. He never got the chance to restart this program. He completed "The Age of Jackson", in 1945, which would have been his doctoral dissertation, but when Harvard advised him that scholarly work done outside of his doctoral program could not be utilized for research within the doctoral program, he chose not to rejoin their graduate program. This book was his first Pulitzer prizewinning book. Harvard then asked him back ......... not to go for their doctoral program but to teach in their history department. From 1946-1954 he was an Associate Professor at Harvard, becoming a full professor in 1954. Not bad for someone without his Ph.D.

Of course, he is better known as as helping to found Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), serving in the Pres. Kennedy administration, and for writing his famous book called "A Thousand Days: John F. Kennedy in the White House", which won him his second Pulitzer Prize in 1965. 

I heard him speak about Vietnam in 1966 when he was the Albert Schweitzer Professor of Humanities at City University of New York Graduate Center. I was only 17 at the time, and had just graduated high school, and had not be accepted to any university. Back then, no admission to a college or university meant the draft ......... and off to Vietnam a few month later. I was stopped at the door, as I tried to mingle in with some other grad students from CCNY going to one of his lectures. When asked if I was a student I replied, "Not yet .........", even though I knew that I would never have the grades for CCNY. When I was told to go away I replied "I should have the opportunity to hear him speak since I was a member of the ADA which he helped to create ..... and I want to hear him speak about Vietnam before I get shipped off there once I turn 18." Just as I said that, Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., who was standing near the door as I was being denied entrance, told the guard "One more person being allowed inside won't be a bother". All I could do was extend my hand and say "thank you" to this great man. 

He would be my one example that great things can happen to one without certain degrees to one's name.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Apparently out of over 22,000 full and part time students at McGill only 40 students voted in favour of the strikes.


this struck me as something which could not possibly be true when i read it earlier today. Just had a chance to google it now, and it seems it absolutely isn't. Several departments DID vote against the strike at McGill, but it was nowhere near the nearly unanimous numbers you portrayed, and was actually much closer. i.e :

Arts undergrads say no to strike : McGill Reporter



> the final vote stood at 495 in favour, 609 opposed, with 16 abstentions.


perhaps you misheard, or the program you were listening to got their numbers incorrect, or misrepresented the facts.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., an academic whom I admired for years...
> <snip>


Interesting story, I know the name from a historical context, but I've never read any of Schlesinger's works.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Interesting story, I know the name from a historical context, but I've never read any of Schlesinger's works.


As a history major in American history, and a liberal, he was #1 on my reading lists. Max Lerner and Richard Hofstadter would be #2 and #3.


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> http://www.cmec.ca/Publications/Lists/Publications/Attachments/102/TandemLiteratureReview.en.pdf
> 
> You seem sure of your statement, but there seems to be room for doubt. I'm sure it fits your personal narrative though.


Yeah 9th out of how many countries around the world....?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> this struck me as something which could not possibly be true when i read it earlier today. Just had a chance to google it now, and it seems it absolutely isn't. Several departments DID vote against the strike at McGill, but it was nowhere near the nearly unanimous numbers you portrayed, and was actually much closer. i.e :
> 
> Arts undergrads say no to strike : McGill Reporter
> 
> 
> 
> perhaps you misheard, or the program you were listening to got their numbers incorrect, or *misrepresented the facts.*


It is what was stated, I don't have the source because it was on the CBC radio... I will do some poking around to see if I can find the source on CBC.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Yeah 9th out of how many countries around the world....?


I'm not sure that examining the affordability of higher education in Canada in relation to, say, countries like Burundi, is really a useful comparison.

The 9th place referenced here seems to be 9th out of 23 comparable nations.... which puts us in a position of 'mediocre.'


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I'm not sure that examining the affordability of higher education in Canada in relation to, say, countries like Burundi, is really a useful comparison.
> 
> The 9th place referenced here seems to be 9th out of 23 comparable nations.... which puts us in a position of 'mediocre.'


Well tuition fees aren't directly the equivalent of "affordability". There are tax considerations, bursaries, cost of books and supplies, housing, etc. etc, built into the equation of affordability. 

In terms of straight up tuition fees we are amongst the lowest in the world which was in fact the point I made. It was i-rui and Ottawaman who took the discussion to affordability which again has many components built into it beyond tuition fees. Tuition fees *is* the issue in Quebec.


----------



## screature

screature said:


> It is what was stated, I don't have the source because it was on the CBC radio... I will do some poking around to see if I can find the source on CBC.


It was stated by Barabara Kay a Montreal based journalist who writes for the National Post and taught English Literature and Composition for many years both at Concordia University and in the Quebec CEGEP system. She is a well-known book reviewer on the Montreal circuit. Barbara is the founding editor and is currently the editor-in-chief of FirstFruits, an annual anthology of creative writing by Montreal and area secondary school students, now in its 21st year of publication. She was a frequent contributor to and sat on the board of Cite libre.

She was interviewed by Rex Murphy for Cross Country Check Up.


----------



## Dr.G.

An interesting graphic representation of tuition across the 10 Canadian provinces, and what various degrees might cost.

Quebec's tuition price tags match up to the rest of Canada: Graphic | News | National Post


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> In terms of straight up tuition fees we are amongst the lowest in the world which was in fact the point I made. It was i-rui and Ottawaman who took the discussion to affordability which again has many components built into it beyond tuition fees. Tuition fees *is* the issue in Quebec.


Actually, we have 5th highest straight up tuition fees of the 23 countries compared according to the paper that i-rui linked to, and 6th highest fees when ancillary fees are taken into account.


----------



## CubaMark

_*Something that may be of interest regarding the Quebec student protests:*_

*An Open Letter to English-Canadians, who might be feeling that Quebeckers have taken leave of their senses.*

_by Daniel Weinstock on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 at 2:09am ·_

*An open letter to my English-Canadian friends. Please circulate in your networks as you see fit.*

You may have heard that there has been some turmoil in Quebec in recent weeks. There have been demonstrations in the streets of Montreal every night for almost a month now, and a massive demonstration will be happening tomorrow, which I will be attending, along with my wife, Elizabeth Elbourne, and my eldest daughter Emma.

Reading the Anglo-Canadian press, it strikes me that you have been getting a very fragmented and biased picture of what is going on. Given the gulf that has already emerged between Quebec and the rest of Canada in the wake of the 2011 election, it is important that the issues under discussion here at least be represented clearly. You may decide at the end of the day that we are crazy, but at least you should reach that decision on the basis of the facts, rather than of the distortions that have been served up by the G&M and other outlets.

First, the matter of the tuition hikes, which touched off this mess. The rest of the country seems to have reached the conclusion that the students are spoiled, selfish brats, who would still be paying the lowest tuition fees even if the whole of the proposed increase went through.

The first thing to say is that this is an odd conception of selfishness. Students have been sticking with the strikes even knowing that they may suffer deleterious consequences, both financial and academic. They have been marching every night despite the threat of beatings, tear-gas, rubber bullets, and arrests. It is, of course, easier for the right-wing media to dismiss them if they can be portrayed as selfish kids to whom no -one has ever said "no". But there is clearly an issue of principle here.

OK, then. But maybe the principle is the wrong one. Free tuition may just be a pie-in-the sky idea that mature people give up on when they put away childish things. And besides, why should other people pay for the students' "free" tuition? There is no such thing as "free" education. Someone, somewhere, has to pay. And the students, the criticism continues, are simply refusing to pay their "fair share".

Why is that criticism simplistic? Because the students' claim has never been that they should not pay for education. The question is whether they should do so up front, before they have income, or later, as taxpayers in a progressive taxation scheme. Another question has to do with the degree to which Universities should be funded by everyone, or primarily by those who attend them. So the issue of how to fund Universities justly is complicated. We have to figure out at what point in people's lives they should be paying for their education, and we also have to figure out how much of the bill should be footed by those who do not attend, but who benefit from a University-educated work force of doctors, lawyers, etc. The students' answer to this question may not be the best, but then it does not strike me that the government's is all that thought out either.

And at least the students have been trying to make ARGUMENTS and to engage the government and the rest of society in debate, whereas the government's attitude, other than to invoke the in-this-context-meaningless "everyone pays their faire share" argument like a mantra, has been to say "Shut up, and obey".

What strikes the balance in the students' favour in the Quebec context is that the ideal of no up-front financial hurdles to University access is enshrined in some of the most foundational documents of Quebec's Quiet Revolution, in particular the Parent Commission Report, which wrested control of schools from the Church and created the modern Quebec education system, a cornerstone of the kind of society that many Quebeckers see themselves as aspiring to. Now, it could be that that ideal is no longer viable, or that we may no longer want to subscribe to it. But moving away from it, as Charest's measures have done, at least requires a debate, analogous to the debate that would have to be had if the Feds proposed to scrap the Canada Health Act. It is clearly not just an administrative measure. It is political through and through. Indeed it strikes at fundamental questions about the kind of society we want to live in. If this isn't the sort of thing that requires democratic debate, I don't know what is.

The government has met the very reasonable request that this issue, and broader issues of University governance, be at least addressed in some suitably open and democratic manner with silence, then derision, then injunctions, and now, with the most odious "law" that I have seen voted by the Quebec National Assembly in my adult memory. It places the right of all Quebec citizens to assemble, but also to talk and discuss about these issues, under severe limitations. It includes that most odious of categories: crimes of omission, as in, you can get fined for omitting to attempt to prevent someone from taking part in an act judged illegal by the law. In principle, the simple wearing of the by-now iconic red square can be subject to a fine. The government has also made the student leaders absurdly and ruinously responsible for any action that is ostensibly carried out under the banners of their organizations. The students groups can be fined $125000 whenever someone claiming to be "part" of the movement throws a rock through a window. And so on. It is truly a thing to behold.

The government is clearly aware that this "law" would not withstand a millisecond of Charter scrutiny. It actually expires in July 2013, well before challenges could actually wind their way through the Courts. The intention is thus clearly just to bring down the hammer on this particular movement by using methods that the government knows to be contrary to basic liberal-democratic rule-of-law principles. The cynicism is jaw-dropping. It is beneath contempt for the government to play fast and loose with our civil rights and liberties in order to deal with the results of its own abject failure to govern.

So that is why tomorrow I will be taking a walk in downtown Montreal with (hopefully!) hundreds of thousands of my fellow citizens. Again, you are all free to disagree, but at least don't let it be because of the completely distorted picture of what is going on here that you have been getting from media outlets, including some from which we might have expected more.

Daniel​


----------



## Macfury

> Because the students' claim has never been that they should not pay for education. The question is whether they should do so up front, before they have income, or later, as taxpayers in a progressive taxation scheme.


There's the hole in that pitiful argument. Whether they should pay for what they are consuming up front, or whether everyone else should pay for it now--including those who have not, and will never, attend post-secondary school. Talk about a feeble defense.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Actually, we have 5th highest straight up tuition fees of the 23 countries compared according to the paper that i-rui linked to, and 6th highest fees when ancillary fees are taken into account.


Can you show me where i-rui's links indicate that? I looked a few times and I can't find what you are talking about...


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Can you show me where i-rui's links indicate that? I looked a few times and I can't find what you are talking about...


Section E.2, page 16.


----------



## screature

The overall picture is really quite complex... more so than I even realized... this is a a good debate...

Canadians paying more for education, OECD finds 



> I*n purely financial terms, the benefits of a postsecondary education to individuals and Canadian society at large far outweigh the costs, a new report suggests.
> *
> However, as Canada spends more and more on higher education, an increasing percentage of the cost is borne by students and their families, says the annual Education at a Glance report by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.
> 
> The news closely follows the revelation that Canada’s federal student loan program is close to hitting its $15-billion ceiling years ahead of schedule, yet another indication both of the rising price tag of a postsecondary education and increasing enrolment levels.
> 
> While the OECD report paints a flattering picture of a country making large investments in postsecondary education, some argue the revelations indicate Ottawa must implement new guidelines to cap the price of tuition and guarantee access to higher learning.
> 
> *The OECD estimates that the average Canadian man with a college or university education makes more than three times what he put into getting such an education, both in terms of direct costs and lost wages. For the average woman, the gain is more than double the cost. The value to society was similarly pegged at roughly double the government’s investment.
> 
> Out of 32 developed countries, Canada had the second-highest rate of education spending in proportion to its GDP at more than 2.5%, trailing only the United States. A high proportion of that spending, 43.4 per cent in 2007, came from private sources, primarily tuition fees.*
> 
> *“In Canada, the fees are quite high, but the returns are higher as well,” said Bo Hansson, an education analyst for the OECD, adding that in countries with lower tuition fees, the average person still pays for education later in life through taxes.*
> 
> There is no problem with higher fees, so long as the government provides a robust system of student loans to guarantee access to education, he said.
> 
> Economist Hugh MacKenzie, however, said the concept of funding education through student loans freezes out those who are averse to debt, including students from low-income families.
> 
> “The implicit assumption behind the student loan funding model is that the student or their family is willing to take on debt in order to graduate,” said Mr. MacKenzie, an economist and research associate with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. “The lower your income, the less likely you are to take on debt to finance your education.”
> 
> *Others argue that the only way to ensure access is to bring tuition fees down and guarantee stable funding directly to postsecondary institutions.*
> 
> “There’s less and less of the public interest at heart in our public institutions,” said David Molenhuis, national chairperson of the Canadian Federation of Students. “We’ve come to this point because there’s no federal legislation, there’s no standard of access.”
> 
> Over the past four years, the federal government has injected money into the system, both by making it easier to take out student loans and by offering $350-million worth of grants to students. The Canadian Alliance of Student Associations, however, estimates that Ottawa transferred $3-billion less to the provinces for grants to institutions than it did in the 1990s.
> 
> The Education at a Glance report is a wide-ranging study of data issued by the OECD, a 32-country organization that conducts research and advises on government policy.


I was surprised by this article but one must remember it is based on the Canadian average which is twice that of the Quebec average... they still have little to complain about... and even though it seems our tuition rates are indeed high (which I find shocking because it is not the information I have from other sources) it seems the value of that education is quite high indeed.

At any rate it seems Quebec students seem to feel a certain level of entitlement that the rest of Canadian students don't as they are the only one's protesting or perhaps the value of a Quebec University education isn't quite up to snuff to the rest of the country...

I still say if you get something for next to nothing it is worth next to nothing and the more you have to work for it the more it means to you and the more likely you are to make something of it... 

For example getting a BA in ancient history means squat these days in terms of a return to the general public so why should the tax payer pay for that next to meaningless and value added degree to society? If someone want to take one such an esoteric and low level degree based out of pure curiosity they should pay for it themselves, as I did with my BFA.

I personally had no expectations that the government should pay for my own personal interests. It was only my own hard work that reduced my costs by achieving high grades and getting bursaries... Too many people think they should get a free lunch, especially the young.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Whether they should pay for what they are consuming up front, or whether everyone else should pay for it now--including those who have not, and will never, attend post-secondary school.


The fact that you would use the verb "consuming" to describe education eloquently illustrates the flaw in your thinking.

Education, especially post-secondary education, benefits not only the student, but society at large. It also can't be consumed, because through the process of becoming educated one becomes an educator (and, ideally, a creator of new knowledge). Knowledge can't be used up, nor does consuming information necessarily teach you anything. The only thing that gets "consumed" by education is ignorance.

What is at issue here is wether the socialized education paradigm, in which society heavily (or completely) subsidizes education because it benefits everyone, or the capitalist paradigm, in which schools try to entice students to pay high tuitions for training that may-or-may-not help them get a better job, is the preferable model for funding post-secondary education in Canada. Quebec has been a champion of the former, but the current government is making a 180˚ turn, and that is what the students are protesting. It's the principle, not just the money.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> The overall picture is really quite complex... more so than I even realized... this is a a good debate...


I agree.


> I still say if you get something for next to nothing it is worth next to nothing and the more you have to work for it the more it means to you and the more likely you are to make something of it...


How hard do you have to work for the air you breathe or the water you drink. I agree that most of us fail to value these things we get for free as much as we ought to, but that is a failure of our economic system, not an indication that these things lack value.

Consider what is *really* most valuable to you; I won't presume to guess what these things may be for you, but for me they are the relationships I have with people, my physical well-being, my research and teaching. I will certainly agree that I had (and continue to) work hard at these things, but I didn't pay for any of them.



> For example getting a BA in ancient history means squat these days in terms of a return to the general public so why should the tax payer pay for that next to meaningless and value added degree to society?


:yikes:

And you call *me* judgemental


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> The fact that you would use the verb "consuming" to describe education eloquently illustrates the flaw in your thinking.
> 
> Education, especially post-secondary education, benefits not only the student, but society at large. It also can't be consumed, because through the process of becoming educated one becomes an educator (and, ideally, a creator of new knowledge). Knowledge can't be used up, nor does consuming information necessarily teach you anything. The only thing that gets "consumed" by education is ignorance.


This is simply a semantic argument. You consume educational services--not the education itself. In the same way you do not eat a movie while watching it, you consume the services of those who brought the film to market.

The major beneficiary of the education is the student who sees wages increase. Why don't we establish a program by which we lend students money so they can pay it back with their increased wages? Oh, wait!


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The major beneficiary of the education is the student who sees wages increase.


As has already been noted, increased wages are far from guaranteed, especially if one pursues curiosity-motivated education. Yet there are clearly benefits to society of having a broadly educated populace.

I would certainly be in favour of increased taxes on high wage earners (with concomitant reduction in taxes on low wage earners), regardless of wether the higher wages were directly the result of some specific educational investment.

Make education free (or cheap), and let the market decide how to value people's skills and time.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> As has already been noted, increased wages are far from guaranteed, especially if one pursues curiosity-motivated education. Yet there are clearly benefits to society of having a broadly educated populace.
> 
> I would certainly be in favour of increased taxes on high wage earners (with concomitant reduction in taxes on low wage earners), regardless of wether the higher wages were directly the result of some specific educational investment.
> 
> Make education free (or cheap), and let the market decide how to value people's skills and time.


I disagree entirely. Attach a significant but possibly subsidized price to eduction, so the market will weed out those who are not serious about education. A significant tuition will also prevent people from taking a junk degree in Buffy the Vampire Slayer at no cost to themselves--and no benefit to society.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc; said:


> And you call *me* judgemental


Screature is judgmental--and correct!


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Attach a significant but possibly subsidized price to eduction, so the market will weed out those who are not serious about education.


So you're saying that rich people who aren't serious about education don't go to expensive ivy league schools on a lark? Or that poor people who are serious about education have no trouble coming up with tuition?

What colour is the sky on your planet?


----------



## Macfury

On my planet, pricing education helps ensure that people are not using free university as an extended version of daycare.


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## bryanc

Macfury said:


> On my planet, pricing education helps ensure that people are not using free university as an extended version of daycare.


Ah, well that explains it then. On Earth, at least in Canada, we're trying to develop a system that filters on the basis of academic aptitude, not wealth, and all students will have to pay equally in terms of the time and opportunity cost for their advanced educations. We have the military and prisons to function as extended day-care beejacon


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Section E.2, page 16.


No wonder I couldn't find it Ottawaman provided the link to that study not i-rui.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I agree.
> 
> How hard do you have to work for the air you breathe or the water you drink. I agree that most of us fail to value these things we get for free as much as we ought to, but that is a failure of our economic system, not an indication that these things lack value.
> 
> Consider what is *really* most valuable to you; I won't presume to guess what these things may be for you, but for me they are the relationships I have with people, my physical well-being, my research and teaching. I will certainly agree that I had (and continue to) work hard at these things, but I didn't pay for any of them.
> 
> 
> 
> :yikes:
> 
> And you call *me* judgemental


Sorry bryanc but comparing a university undergrad education to water or air is pretty ridiculous in my estimation as you need these things to live. One can and many do easily live and thrive without a university degree.

Interesting that you think you don't pay for your physical well being. You eat don't you? You have a roof over your head and you get clean potable water out of a tap in your home don't you? Your home is heated in the winter? etc. etc. You really get all these things for free? Can I get in on whatever deal you have? 

Your teaching other people pay for and if they didn't I doubt that you would be able to keep up your physical well being very long unless you did something else to pay for those things that provide for your physical well being.

And yes an undergrad BA in ancient history is basically worthless to the general public in terms of value added to society... In terms of personal value to the individual it could be worth very much and so they should pay for it if it means that much to them.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Ah, well that explains it then. On Earth, at least in Canada, we're trying to develop a system that filters on the basis of academic aptitude, not wealth, and all students will have to pay equally in terms of the time and opportunity cost for their advanced educations. We have the military and prisons to function as extended day-care beejacon


And others want a system where people can buy a better education if they have the money, and the provision of a post secondary system where part of the cost of that education is charged to the consumer of that service—even if efforts are made to help them bridge those costs. All educations are not equal and neither should the price of their product be equal.

The argument that "education is valuable to all Canadians" or "society" is a canard. As screature points out, not all degrees have equal value. As well, the primary motivation of most students is to juice their future incomes, with the societal benefit of their schooling a distant second. I don't see students flocking to unpleasant careers in areas underserved by the current labour market simply to benefit society.

A similar construct: employment is valuable to all Canadians, so let's give each business $30,000 a year to hire at least one additional worker.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Sorry bryanc but comparing a university undergrad education to water or air is pretty ridiculous in my estimation as you need these things to live. One can and many do easily live and thrive without a university degree.


My point was not that you need a university education to live, it was that the financial cost of something is not intrinsically related to its value.



> Interesting that you think you don't pay for your physical well being.


Okay, there are certainly aspects of my physical well being that have economic costs; food, shelter, clothing, etc. I could also buy a gym membership and/or hire someone to do the things that keep me so busy and stressed-out that I don't have time to do any exercise, and that would doubtless improve my physical condition. But there are also aspects of my physical health that are not things that any amount of money could change, and that's my point; it's the things we *can't* buy that we do (or should) value the most.



> And yes an undergrad BA in ancient history is basically worthless to the general public in terms of value added to society.


This is your opinion. I personally don't see much value in lots of things other people value very highly, but I won't argue that these things aren't valuable to society. Diversity and complexity are essential for social evolution.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The argument that "education is valuable to all Canadians" or "society" is a canard.


So why should we be financing high schools, or elementary schools then?



> As well, the primary motivation of most students is to juice their future incomes, with the societal benefit of their schooling a distant second.


Maybe, but so what. I'm sure the primary motivation of cleaner wrasses is to get a meal, but the fact that their feeding on parasites makes their motivation irrelevant to the grouper who gets cleaned.

But to be clear, I'd have no problem with private professional schools churning out MBAs and diplomas in whatever job skills they wanted (up to and including things like Law, Medicine, and Engineering). Take the job-oriented training out of universities, and make universities free. I expect (in agreement with your position that most students are motivated by the prospects of greater earning power) that enrolment in universities would plummet (initially), as students gravitated to these "income juicing" professional schools, and the professional schools would be able to charge commensurately high tuitions and make a profit on the deal. However, after a few decades it would again be recognized that people who had broader and/or more academically challenging educations in philosophy, history, science and the arts were often better able to generalize, adapt to new challenges, recognize novel opportunities, find novel solutions to problems, etc. and the prestige of university education would be restored.

This is just a swing of the pendulum. But university administrators, eager to inflate enrolment stats and justify increasing tuitions have been flogging the "increased employment opportunities" thing for the past few decades and, between that and rampant grade inflation, it's really degraded what a university degree means. I have no doubt that this will re-equilibrate, but the faster we can dissociate the equation "university degree = good job after graduation" in the minds of society at large the better.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> My point was not that you need a university education to live,* it was that the financial cost of something is not intrinsically related to its value.*
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, there are certainly aspects of my physical well being that have economic costs; food, shelter, clothing, etc. I could also buy a gym membership and/or hire someone to do the things that keep me so busy and stressed-out that I don't have time to do any exercise, and that would doubtless improve my physical condition. But there are also aspects of my physical health that are not things that any amount of money could change, and that's my point; *it's the things we *can't* buy that we do (or should) value the most.
> *
> 
> 
> This is your opinion. I personally don't see much value in lots of things other people value very highly, but I won't argue that these things aren't valuable to society. Diversity and complexity are essential for social evolution.


Being that was the point you were trying to make I would agree but there are very few things (if any) that have objective value. Value is generally subjective.

Like you said to me this is your opinion. There are very few things in the world that we live in that money does not in at least some small way alter the value or perception of value of those things, even things that according to your hierarchy should be most valued.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> So why should we be financing high schools, or elementary schools then?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but so what. I'm sure the primary motivation of cleaner wrasses is to get a meal, but the fact that their feeding on parasites makes their motivation irrelevant to the grouper who gets cleaned.
> 
> But to be clear, I'd have no problem with private professional schools churning out MBAs and diplomas in whatever job skills they wanted (up to and including things like Law, Medicine, and Engineering). Take the job-oriented training out of universities, and make universities free. I expect (in agreement with your position that most students are motivated by the prospects of greater earning power) that enrolment in universities would plummet (initially), as students gravitated to these "income juicing" professional schools, and the professional schools would be able to charge commensurately high tuitions and make a profit on the deal. However, after a few decades it would again be recognized that people who had broader and/or more academically challenging educations in philosophy, history, science and the arts were often better able to generalize, adapt to new challenges, recognize novel opportunities, find novel solutions to problems, etc. and the prestige of university education would be restored.
> 
> This is just a swing of the pendulum. But university administrators, eager to inflate enrolment stats and justify increasing tuitions have been flogging the "increased employment opportunities" thing for the past few decades and, between that and rampant grade inflation, it's really degraded what a university degree means. I have no doubt that this will re-equilibrate, but the faster we can dissociate the equation "university degree = good job after graduation" in the minds of society at large the better.


I think this is an ivory tower utopia bryanc not based in real life. 

To think that making tuition free for a "general arts and humanities" or "pure science" degree will at any point bring students flocking to those institutions is a bit of a pipe dream and in fact it would only be the rich who could "afford" to take advantage of such an education. Anyone who is going to endure the costs of even a tuition free education that takes 3-4 years with no prospect of improving or maintaining their standard of living would have to already basically have no financial worries for their future. 

It is the people who have to be concerned for their future financial well being, i.e. the vast majority of people, who could not afford (even tuition free) to take part in such "esoteric" programs. At the very least these people would be getting an education that makes them employable concurrently with such programs or do so subsequently if they were well enough off financially to basically take 3-4 years off of their career earnings.


----------



## Sonal

I'm not a fan of the division of expensive professional programs for one career path, and free school for those pursuing an academic path. It was exactly this kind of thinking that allowed tuition rates for certain professional programs in Ontario rise at a faster rate than everyone else's--even if students in those programs intended to pursue an academic path.

My fiance is a physicist, but his undergraduate degree is not in pure science but in engineering--at the time he entered school, he didn't know he was going to end up in academia. Likewise, one of my undergraduate degrees is in computer science, a field I stopped working in very soon after finishing school, and I'm just beginning a degree in fine arts (speaking of unemployability.  ). 

We have to account for the fact that 18 and 19 year olds very often don't know what they are going to do with their life. If we're going to take on a utopian ivory tower view of university life and academia, that view should also include the freedom to explore different fields, some of which may be more professionally-oriented than others.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> It is the people who have to be concerned for their future financial well being, i.e. the vast majority of people, who could not afford (even tuition free) to take part in such "esoteric" programs.
> ...
> To think that making tuition free for a "general arts and humanities" or "pure science" degree will at any point bring students flocking to those institutions is a bit of a pipe dream and in fact it would only be the rich who could "afford" to take advantage of such an education.


We have very heavy enrolments in these basic knowledge programs right now, so I can't see how lower tuition would reduce enrolment.

My point is that if you think high tuitions are 'fair' because the degree earned dramatically increases the earning power of the degree holder, then separating out the professional programs that actually translate to high earning power shouldn't be a problem.

But I agree with Sonal that we're better off having everyone interacting and mixing the professional and 'pure' academic students on the grounds that it broadens and improves everyone's learning opportunities.

So what I would seriously propose is to lower/reduce tuition so that everyone who wants to/has the grades to attend university can do so, and raise income tax on high-wage-earners so that, if you benefit financially, you pay financially, and if you benefit only intangibly, you pay only intangibly.


----------



## Sonal

Another way to look at it, IMO, is that if we as a society believe that so-named higher education is desirable or necessary for the majority of our population.... then shouldn't we move some of this learning down to the secondary school level (which perhaps means that we make high school longer) and leave university to those who want to specialize or study further?


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Another way to look at it, IMO, is that if we as a society believe that so-named higher education is desirable or necessary for the majority of our population.... then shouldn't we move some of this learning down to the secondary school level (which perhaps means that we make high school longer) and leave university to those who want to specialize or study further?


Interesting idea. It also has the benefit of keeping a large number of 18/19[20?]year olds out of the job market, and thereby reducing unemployment. Of course that also means those people aren't paying taxes. But then, if most of them were going to go to university any way, they probably wouldn't have started paying taxes under our current system.

I can certainly see some arguments to be made in favour of such a system (especially if it included mandatory civics and/or critical thinking courses).


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Interesting idea. It also has the benefit of keeping a large number of 18/19[20?]year olds out of the job market, and thereby reducing unemployment. Of course that also means those people aren't paying taxes. But then, if most of them were going to go to university any way, they probably wouldn't have started paying taxes under our current system.
> 
> I can certainly see some arguments to be made in favour of such a system (especially if it included mandatory civics and/or critical thinking courses).


It was called Grade 13.


----------



## bryanc

I've never lived in a province with Gr 13... why'd they get rid of it?


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> I've never lived in a province with Gr 13... why'd they get rid of it?


1 year less school that the government had to pay for.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> We have very heavy enrolments in these basic knowledge programs right now, so I can't see how lower tuition would reduce enrolment.
> 
> My point is that if you think high tuitions are 'fair' because the degree earned dramatically increases the earning power of the degree holder, then separating out the professional programs that actually translate to high earning power shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> But I agree with Sonal that we're better off having everyone interacting and mixing the professional and 'pure' academic students on the grounds that it broadens and improves everyone's learning opportunities.
> 
> So what I would seriously propose is to lower/reduce tuition so that everyone who wants to/has the grades to attend university can do so, and raise income tax on high-wage-earners so that, if you benefit financially, you pay financially, and if you benefit only intangibly, you pay only intangibly.


A thought provoking post bryanc... 

I will post back once I have had the time to "intellectually digest" your proposal.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> 1 year less school that the government had to pay for.


Maybe we need to raise high school tuition, eh? I'm sure somewhere there are people already paying tuitions for high school, and they'd think our objections to such an increase were the complaints of spoiled brats.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Maybe we need to raise high school tuition, eh? I'm sure somewhere there are people already paying tuitions for high school, and they'd think our objections to such an increase were the complaints of spoiled brats.


Well, my high school tuition was considerably more (I think about 4 times more) than my university tuition....


----------



## kps

bryanc said:


> So what I would seriously propose is to lower/reduce tuition so that everyone who wants to/has the grades to attend university can do so, and raise income tax on high-wage-earners so that, if you benefit financially, you pay financially, and if you benefit only intangibly, you pay only intangibly.


We already have that...it's called "your tax bracket".

Are you proposing a tax on tax? Is the future tax form to include a line for whatever degree you hold and are taxed accordingly?


----------



## bryanc

kps said:


> We already have that...it's called "your tax bracket".


Yes, I understand that. I'm saying that I'd support increasing the upper tax brackets* to support lowered tuition across the country. If these university degrees are really helping people earn more money, they shouldn't mind paying more taxes to pay for the universities, right?

[*note: to make this really fair, you should only have to pay this university surtax if your income is two standard deviations above the mean and you have a university degree]


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Maybe we need to raise high school tuition, eh? I'm sure somewhere there are people already paying tuitions for high school, *and they'd think our objections to such an increase were the complaints of spoiled brats*.


Private secondary schools are expensive indeed... the stuff of the rich.... try and keep things real bryanc instead of being hyperbolic... it might keep the discussion on track.

In terms of keeping things real, publicly funded secondary education is already paid for by targeted tax dollars at the municipal level.

If parents decide to go private that is their decision and they have the right to complain if there are unwarranted increases in tuition but the students quite simply don't as they pay nothing.... Keeping it real.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Yes, I understand that. I'm saying that I'd support increasing the upper tax brackets* to support lowered tuition across the country. If these university degrees are really helping people earn more money, they shouldn't mind paying more taxes to pay for the universities, right?
> 
> [*note: to make this really fair, you should only have to pay this university surtax if your income is two standard deviations above the mean and you have a university degree]


Well, and assuming that whatever income-related wealth you have is actually related to your university education. 

There's also a question of whether or not the type of person who completes a university degree is more likely to be successful anyway, in the sense that they have a demonstrated at least some ability to work towards a long-term goal.... so is the (financial) value in the education itself, or in the ability to complete the education?


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Well, and assuming that whatever income-related wealth you have is actually related to your university education.


Pretty difficult to disentangle. Consider someone who studied population genetics, and as a consequence learned to program computers (for simulations), and upon graduating started a business selling widgets that becomes highly profitable at least partially because of the software the owner develops using the skills he learned (while working in a genetics lab) at university*. Given that selling widgets has nothing to do with population genetics, should tax on this lucrative business go to support university education?

(*based on a true story)



> There's also a question of whether or not the type of person who completes a university degree is more likely to be successful anyway


Indeed; this distinction between correlation and causation is the crux of many problems. And again, I don't think there's any way we can disentangle these possibilities, so I think you'd have to have a system whereby, if you go to university, you risk paying a surtax if you ever become wealthy; a sort of forced alumni contribution system.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Private secondary schools are expensive indeed... the stuff of the rich.... try and keep things real bryanc instead of being hyperbolic... it might keep the discussion on track.


I'm simply trying to underscore the similarity between raising tuition for high school (which I think would cause most Canadians considerable alarm) and the situation in Quebec, in which people are objecting to raising university tuition. The fact that they already have the lowest tuition in Canada does not pertain any more than the fact that high school tuition is currently 100% subsidized.

If we as a society think high school ought to be 100% subsidized, why do we think university should not be similarly subsidized? Presumably this is because we (as a society) agree that not everyone "needs" university. But we seem to agree that university can (if you choose the right feild) dramatically increase your earning potential. So why should we not provide this opportunity to everyone who has the aptitude, and pay for it from the increased wealth these educated people will create?

If you want to argue that the wealthy people would've become wealthy even without the university education, that will quickly become apparent as many people choose not to go to university and they would be free of this surtax. Furthermore, the many people who go to university and do not become wealthy will also be free of the surtax due to their lower incomes. So only the people who are benefiting disproportionately will be required to pay disproportionately; the system is revenue neutral, fair to everyone, and allows anyone with the aptitude to pursue a university degree in whatever interests them.


----------



## kps

bryanc said:


> I'm simply trying to underscore the similarity between raising tuition for high school (which I think would cause most Canadians considerable alarm) and the situation in Quebec, in which people are objecting to raising university tuition. The fact that they already have the lowest tuition in Canada does not pertain any more than the fact that high school tuition is currently 100% subsidized.
> 
> If we as a society think high school ought to be 100% subsidized, why do we think university should not be similarly subsidized? Presumably this is because we (as a society) agree that not everyone "needs" university. But we seem to agree that university can (if you choose the right feild) dramatically increase your earning potential. So why should we not provide this opportunity to everyone who has the aptitude, and pay for it from the increased wealth these educated people will create?
> 
> If you want to argue that the wealthy people would've become wealthy even without the university education, that will quickly become apparent as many people choose not to go to university and they would be free of this surtax. Furthermore, the many people who go to university and do not become wealthy will also be free of the surtax due to their lower incomes. So only the people who are benefiting disproportionately will be required to pay disproportionately; the system is revenue neutral, fair to everyone, and allows anyone with the aptitude to pursue a university degree in whatever interests them.


Who is going to track this and how? Isn't our tax system complicated enough? I fail to see any logic in what you propose. Totally open to scams and fraud.

What if I get myself a nice dental degree or a medical degree and first thing I do is head for the US or Asia or even the struggling EU. How are you going to collect? Who's on the hook for all that free education worth a couple of hundred grand? 

For those who aren't wealthy, the system of scholarships, sponsorships, grants and loans works just fine.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> For those who aren't wealthy, the system of scholarships, sponsorships, grants and loans works just fine.


lol


----------



## kps

You're laughing why Rui? Because you weren't good enough for a scholarship, parent's made too much money to qualify for a grant, you're still paying off your student loan? Do share.


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## i-rui

individual specifics don't matter, so i feel no reason to share. The problem is not about any single individual, but the entire middle & lower class population of the country.

we're facing a serious problem nation wide. student debt is at an all time high. the average debt is north of $25,000 in Canada, and that will only grow.

I'm laughing at your statement because the system of scholarships, sponsorships, grants and loans is most definitely *NOT* working "just fine".


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## kps

No system is perfect but compared to bryanc's alternative, it does work just fine.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> I'm simply trying to underscore the similarity between raising tuition for high school (which I think would cause most Canadians considerable alarm) and the situation in Quebec, in which people are objecting to raising university tuition. The fact that they already have the lowest tuition in Canada does not pertain any more than the fact that high school tuition is currently 100% subsidized.


I don't agree that it's similar, in that direct out-of-pocket costs for public high school are the same across Canada, whereas there is a significant difference between Quebec and the majority of the country. 

If we're talking about the expense vs value of university education in general, then I agree that there definitely some problems in the system we have. I'm not yet sure what the answers are. I do think that more people attend university than who necessarily get a value (financial and otherwise) out of it, who are then burdened with the expense of having done so, but I am not yet sure what system improves the situation.

But Quebec is not the place to take a stand on this issue, and the protestors are doing themselves a disservice by (from what I understand) being unwilling to compromise.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> ...*If we as a society think high school ought to be 100% subsidized,*...


Uhh no it is paid for with a dedicated tax at the Municipal level. One of the very few dedicated taxes that actually exist.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I don't agree that it's similar, *in that direct out-of-pocket costs for public high school are the same across Canada*, whereas there is a significant difference between Quebec and the majority of the country.
> 
> If we're talking about the expense vs value of university education in general, then I agree that there definitely some problems in the system we have. I'm not yet sure what the answers are. I do think that more people attend university than who necessarily get a value (financial and otherwise) out of it, who are then burdened with the expense of having done so, but I am not yet sure what system improves the situation.
> 
> But Quebec is not the place to take a stand on this issue, and the protestors are doing themselves a disservice by (from what I understand) being unwilling to compromise.


I really don't understand what you are trying to say here... school taxes vary depending on the school board...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> individual specifics don't matter, so i feel no reason to share. The problem is not about any single individual, but the entire middle & lower class population of the country.
> 
> we're facing a serious problem nation wide. student debt is at an all time high. the average debt is north of $25,000 in Canada, and that will only grow.
> 
> I'm laughing at your statement because the system of scholarships, sponsorships, grants and loans is most definitely *NOT* working "just fine".


I guess you missed this earlier...



> *The OECD estimates that the average Canadian man with a college or university education makes more than three times what he put into getting such an education, both in terms of direct costs and lost wages. For the average woman, the gain is more than double the cost. *The value to society was similarly pegged at roughly double the government’s investment.
> 
> Out of 32 developed countries, Canada had the second-highest rate of education spending in proportion to its GDP at more than 2.5%, trailing only the United States. A high proportion of that spending, 43.4 per cent in 2007, came from private sources, primarily tuition fees.
> 
> “In Canada, the fees are quite high, but the returns are higher as well,” said Bo Hansson, an education analyst for the OECD, adding that in countries with lower tuition fees, the average person still pays for education later in life through taxes.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Uhh no it is paid for with a dedicated tax at the Municipal level. One of the very few dedicated taxes that actually exist.


How is "paid for with a ... tax" not "subsidized"?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> How is "paid for with a ... tax" not "subsidized"?


It is a *dedicated *tax paid by all home owners for a specific purpose. 



> A subsidy is an assistance paid to a business or economic sector. Most subsidies are made by the government to producers or distributed as subventions in an industry to prevent the decline of that industry (e.g., as a result of continuous unprofitable operations) or an increase in the prices of its products or simply to encourage it to hire more labor (as in the case of a wage subsidy). Examples are subsidies to encourage the sale of exports; subsidies on some foods to keep down the cost of living, especially in urban areas; and subsidies to encourage the expansion of farm production and achieve self-reliance in food production.[1] Subsidy has been used by economists with different meanings and connotations in different contexts. The dictionary [Concise Oxford] defines it as "money granted by state, public body, etc., to keep down the prices of commodities, etc.”. Environmental economists define subsidies as uncompensated environmental damage arising from any flow of goods and services. In a budgetary context, it may be defined as “unrecovered costs in the public provision of private goods”.[2]
> 
> Subsidies are often regarded as a form of protectionism or trade barrier by making domestic goods and services artificially competitive against imports. Subsidies may distort markets, and can impose large economic costs.[3] Financial assistance in the form of a subsidy may come from one's government, but the term subsidy may also refer to assistance granted by others, such as individuals or non-governmental institutions.....


Subsidy


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I really don't understand what you are trying to say here... school taxes vary depending on the school board...


I meant after-tax costs. i.e., as far as I'm aware, no one in Canada pays tuition to attend public high schools.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Subsidy


By that definition, university tuitions are not subsidized at all. Neither is health care.

Using the broader definition of "subsidize" to mean the use of tax dollars to reduce the cost of an action that is deemed desirable by the government, education is heavily subsidized. Most of us, I think, would agree that this investment is good for society, and is therefore a legitimate expenditure of tax dollars.

The question is, at what level do we, as Canadians, want to subsidize the post-secondary education of our citizens. I would argue that Quebec is on the right track here; we should be subsiding tuition to a greater extent, not the lesser extent that is characteristic of the US and other Canadian provinces.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I meant after-tax costs. i.e., *as far as I'm aware, no one in Canada pays tuition to attend public high schools*.


Not as far as I know either it is just paid for through a dedicated school tax that is collected and administered at the municipal level through and by the various school boards. At least that is how it works in Quebec.


----------



## SINC

*NDP leader has remortgaged his home 11 times since early 1980s*

Some 'leader' this guy is:*



> New Democratic Party leader Tom Mulcair and his wife have repeatedly refinanced their home west of Montreal, gradually increasing the debt on the property over a series of 11 mortgages, land records show.
> 
> Mulcair’s office will not explain why the couple have loaded more and more financing onto the West Island home they’ve lived in since the early 1980s, saying only that it’s a “private matter.”
> 
> It is unclear why Mulcair would need to refinance the modest two-garage home in Beaconsfield so many times, bumping the value of the mortgage from $58,000 to $300,000.
> 
> Before he became leader, Mulcair enjoyed a successful and well-paid career as a government lawyer and, later, a cabinet minister in the Quebec National Assembly. His wife, Catherine Pinhas, is a psychologist practicing in Montreal. Both their children are now adults with jobs — one is a police officer, the other an engineer.
> 
> Mulcair was hit with a judgment from a defamation case in 2005 after he accused former Parti Québécois minister Yves Duhaime of influence peddling. He was ordered to pay Duhaime $95,000, plus legal costs.
> 
> He left provincial politics in 2007 and ran for the NDP in a byelection later that year. Even then, he stood to collect on a pension from his years as an MNA. When he was elected that fall, he began earning an MP’s salary that was then set at $150,800.
> 
> But in January 2009, he and Pinhas financed the home for the 11th time. They took out a $300,000 mortgage with the Royal Bank of Canada and then paid off the previous $249,000 mortgage from three years earlier.
> 
> While there could be a simple explanation for the transactions, none is forthcoming from Mulcair’s office.
> “Mr. Mulcair and his wife made these decisions for personal and family reasons,” said George Soule, Mulcair’s press secretary, in an email.
> 
> “They are part of their private life.”


NDP leader has remortgaged his home 11 times since early 1980s


----------



## i-rui

it is a private matter.

are conservatives really calling on everyone's personal finances to be a matter of public record? Kill the long form census because that's too intrusive, but everyone has to open up their books?

wow.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it is a private matter.


It is a public matter:



> Under the MP’s Code of Conduct, material changes in a member’s assets or liabilities must be reported to the ethics commissioner within 60 days.


----------



## i-rui

where in the article does it say he didn't report it? 

it seems he hasn't been hiding the refinancing, he just hasn't offered an explanation.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> where in the article does it say he didn't report it?


You said it was a private matter. It isn't.

He doesn't have to explain why he's in such bad shape financially, but at the same time, there's no law against asking.


----------



## i-rui

*WHY* he's refinancing is absolutely a private matter.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> *WHY* he's refinancing is absolutely a private matter.


Sure. Unfortunately, he knowingly entered a profession where everyone knows about it. And they're free to ask him why.


----------



## i-rui

yes they can ask, and he can answer or not. 

but it's nice to see you agree it's a private matter.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> yes they can ask, and he can answer or not.
> 
> but it's nice to see you agree it's a private matter.


Unfortunately, as a public figure, not answering carries its own risks.


----------



## SINC

Isn't the real point here is how does he have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector? It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about then and from the looks of his personal finances, he really doesn't have a clue.

Nothing to do with private or public information, just a shocking position for a party leader to be in.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Isn't the real point here is how does he have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector? It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about then and from the looks of his personal finances, he really doesn't have a clue.
> 
> Nothing to do with private or public information, just a shocking position for a party leader to be in.


Why should he suffer when others are flush with cash. I say, share the wealth!!


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Isn't the real point here is how does he have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector? It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about then and from the looks of his personal finances, he really doesn't have a clue.


actually a study by the government (meaning the HARPER government) shows that Canada *IS INDEED* suffering from Dutch Disease.

his personal finances are just that - personal. we have no idea what has happened. circumstances beyond our control happen to people every day from every social class. he's not doing anything illegal. get over it.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> actually a study by the government (meaning the HARPER government) shows that Canada *IS INDEED* suffering from Dutch Disease.


A case of Dutch Disease so atypical, that the disease is far better than the cure.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Actually a study by the government (meaning the HARPER government) shows that Canada *IS INDEED* suffering from Dutch Disease.
> 
> his personal finances are just that - personal. we have no idea what has happened. circumstances beyond our control happen to people every day from every social class. he's not doing anything illegal. get over it.


Actually a study by the IRPP shows that it is more like a mild case of the flu:

Impact of "Dutch disease" on manufacturers smaller than feared 
IRPP



> *Dutch Disease or failure to compete?: A Diagnosis of Canada's manufacturing woes*.
> 
> The continuing global energy boom that began in the early 2000s has brought significant economic benefits to Canada in the form of strong growth in national income, relatively low unemployment and (until the recession) healthy public finances. These benefits are especially evident in the energy-rich provinces.
> 
> But a booming energy sector may contribute to a strengthening of the currency, which in turn cause lower and unbalanced growth in trade-intensive sectors (particularly manufacturing). This so-called “Dutch disease,” which takes its name from the phenomenon observed in the Netherlands in the 1970s, has been widely blamed for the woes of the manufacturing sector, which is concentrated in central Canada.
> 
> There has been relatively little rigorous analysis of the linkages between energy prices, the exchange rate and manufacturing output in Canada. In this study, Mohammad Shakeri, Richard S. Gray and Jeremy Leonard examine these linkages for 80 different manufacturing industries using an empirical model that accounts for changes in global demand and competitive pressures as well as energy-induced strengthening of the dollar.
> 
> *The results are more nuanced than conventional wisdom would suggest. Only 25 of the 80 industries (accounting for about one-quarter of total manufacturing output) show a significant negative relationship between the US-Canada exchange rate and output. The effects are most pronounced in small labour-intensive industries such as textiles and apparel.* *Larger industry groups such as food products, metals and machinery are much less adversely affected by the strong dollar, and these minor problems have generally been offset by strong growth in demand. Interestingly, automotive industries do not show symptoms of the Dutch disease; their weakness stems from cyclical changes in demand and lagging productivity growth.
> *
> *On balance, the evidence indicates that Canada suffers from a mild case of the Dutch disease, which warrants a commensurate policy response. It is difficult to implement national policies to directly counteract the rising exchange rate (policies such as investing resource revenues in foreign assets, as Norway does), because resource revenues are under provincial jurisdiction. However, Ottawa can use additional federal tax revenues stemming from natural resource booms to invest in infrastructural and other activities that bolster the competitiveness of the manufacturing sector as a whole.*
> 
> *The resource-rich provinces* would also be well advised to adopt policies to ensure that neither public finances nor the economy becomes too dependent on natural resources, because history has shown that prices and demand can fluctuate widely and suddenly. Avoiding such dependence will help ensure that the resource blessing currently enjoyed by some regions does not become a curse for the country.


----------



## Macfury

And never mind that the exchange rate favours consumers buying imported goods ranging from electronics to citrus fruits.


----------



## i-rui

wonderful. so you both agree that Canada is indeed suffering from Dutch Disease.

can you let SINC know because he suggested that Mulcair didn't "have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector?" And more to the point SINC said "It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about", but it turns out Mulcair DOES know what he's talking about.

We can all disagree on the degree at which Canada suffers from Dutch Disease, or the steps needed to counteract it, but after this study i'm hoping we can stop with the denial that it's actually occurring in our country.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> wonderful. so you both agree that Canada is indeed suffering from Dutch Disease.
> 
> can you let SINC know because he suggested that Mulcair didn't "have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector?" And more to the point SINC said "It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about", but it turns out Mulcair DOES know what he's talking about.
> 
> We can all disagree on the degree at which Canada suffers from Dutch Disease, or the steps needed to counteract it, but after this study i'm hoping we can stop with the denial that it's actually occurring in our country.


No, I don't agree. Its a currency fluctuation that can occur any time one successfully exports. Mulcair is suffering form a bad case of hyperbole.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> No, I don't agree. Its a currency fluctuation that can occur any time one successfully exports. Mulcair is suffering form a bad case of hyperbole.


Not to mention questionable personal financial management which can easily carry over to his political life and affect his quality of leadership.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> wonderful. so you both agree that Canada is indeed suffering from Dutch Disease.
> 
> can you let SINC know because he suggested that Mulcair didn't "have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector?" And more to the point SINC said *"It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about", but it turns out Mulcair DOES know what he's talking about.*
> 
> We can all disagree on the degree at which Canada suffers from Dutch Disease, or the steps needed to counteract it, but after this study i'm hoping we can stop with the denial that it's actually occurring in our country.


Not relative his over blown rhetoric especially when he suggests there is something the federal government can/should i.e do to stem it via top down policy. Sounds too much like Trudeau and his NEP which is basically the reason why to this day the Liberal's are "party non grata" in the West.

The provinces have jurisdictional authority over their resources, all the feds can do is:



> ...use additional federal tax revenues stemming from natural resource booms to invest in infrastructural and other activities that bolster the competitiveness of the manufacturing sector as a whole.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Not to mention questionable personal financial management which can easily carry over to his political life and affect his quality of leadership.


so Mohammad Shakeri, Richard Gray and Jeremy Leonard (the authors of the IRPP Study) all suffer from "questionable personal financial management"? Or how about Michel Beine, Charles S. Bos and Serge Coulombe? (authors of the study funded by the Harper Government, which BTW linked 63% of the drop in manufacturing jobs to the Dutch Disease phenomenon)

Empirical data shows we're suffering from dutch disease. Whether the people who raise the legitimate question on what we should do about it have refinanced their home plays *ZERO* part in the equation.

And screature, as i said before we can all disagree on what should be done, but even the quote you rehashed does say Ottawa should do *SOMETHING*.

You can point at Mulcair and say he wants to do too much. I can point at Harper and say he's not doing anything. Harper hasn't even admitted to the problem (after their own study said we have seen the effect on manufacturing jobs). The first step in addressing any problem is admitting that it's there and Harper won't/can't even do that.


----------



## screature

From the Conclusion of the IRPP Report



> Conclusion
> 
> *While the conventional view of the business press and most Canadians is that the rapid appreciation of the Canadian dollar against its US counterpart over the past five years (itself brought on by the spectacular rise in the price of crude oil and other industrial commodities) is the primary culprit behind the substantial shrinkage of the domestic manufacturing sector that began well before the 2008-09 recession, a more rigorous, industry-level analysis of the data paints a much more nuanced picture.*
> 
> Of the 18 major manufacturing sectors studied, 11 (accounting for just over half of manufacturing output) saw a decline in output due to rising energy prices and the associated exchange rate increase, once other factors affecting industry demand are accounted for. At a more disaggregated level, 25 of 80 individual industries (accounting for one-quarter of manufacturing output) were adversely affected.* The largest declines in percentage terms occurred in textiles, apparel and leather products, which together account for less than 2 percent of manufacturing output. Larger industry groups such as food, metals and machinery equipment display evidence of the Dutch disease, but the magnitude is relatively small, and that small negative effect was largely offset by increases in demand before the recent recession.*
> 
> Interestingly, automotive manufacturing, which is often held up as a prime example of the difficulties posed by a strong Canadian dollar, shows no statistically significant relationship.
> 
> I*n the case of aerospace and shipbuilding, there is, if anything, a small boost in output associated with the strengthening dollar. This provides strong circumstantial evidence that the woes of Canadian automakers and parts suppliers stem from cyclical changes in demand, lagging productivity growth and other structural obstacles to competitiveness.*
> 
> On balance, the empirical evidence indicates that Canada suffers from a mild case of the Dutch disease, which has caused *small, surmountable problems for most manufacturing industries and larger challenges for the public finances of resource-rich provinces. The problem in manufacturing is not a rise in the exchange rate per se, but rather sluggish productivity growth and, in more recent years, a cyclical downturn in domestic and global demand, which need to be addressed independently of future exchange rate trends.* Because resource revenues are under provincial jurisdiction, it is difficult to implement national policies to offset the effects of a rising exchange rate either directly (by funnelling windfall resource revenues into a fund that invests in foreign assets) or indirectly (by using such revenues for infrastructural and other investments that improve the competitiveness of the manufacturing sector as a whole.
> 
> However, to the extent that Ottawa can use the additional federal corporate tax revenues stemming from natural resource booms for these purposes, these goals can partially be met.
> 
> The resource-rich provinces would also be well advised to adopt policies to ensure that neither public finances nor the economy becomes too dependent on natural resources, because history has shown numerous times that prices and demand can fluctuate widely and suddenly. The May 2011 report Shaping Alberta’s Future provides sound advice with regard to using natural resource revenues to foster economic diversification and other longer-term benefits as well as to insulate the provincial budget against wide swings in oil prices. It could be used as a blueprint for other resource-rich provinces, so that the resource blessing enjoyed by some regions does not become a curse for the country.


Seems all Mulcair did was read "the conventional view of the business press" to form his opinions... maybe a few others around here as well.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> so Mohammad Shakeri, Richard Gray and Jeremy Leonard (the authors of the IRPP Study) all suffer from "questionable personal financial management"? Or how about Michel Beine, Charles S. Bos and Serge Coulombe? (authors of the study funded by the Harper Government, which BTW linked 63% of the drop in manufacturing jobs to the Dutch Disease phenomenon)
> 
> Empirical data shows we're suffering from dutch disease. Whether the people who raise the legitimate question on what we should do about it have refinanced their home plays *ZERO* part in the equation.
> 
> And screature, as i said before we can all disagree on what should be done, but even the quote you rehashed does say Ottawa should do *SOMETHING*.
> 
> You can point at Mulcair and say he wants to do too much. I can point at Harper and say he's not doing anything. Harper hasn't even admitted to the problem (after their own study said we have seen the effect on manufacturing jobs). The first step in addressing any problem is admitting that it's there and Harper won't/can't even do that.


I really wonder if you have read the report after this post i-rui.


----------



## kps

Why should Harper even acknowledge a moron like Mulcair when he accuses the government of practicing policies comparable to those of Nigeria? 

That wild-eyed French citizen should just tone down his rhetoric or I'll start comparing his personal finances to that of Greece. LOL


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> I really wonder if you have read the report after this post i-rui.


there's actually 2 studies screature (the one you've previously linked to and the one commissioned by the Harper government). I've read the conclusions of both.

We both can cherry pick quotes from the studies to support our views, but it doesn't really matter since as i said before people can disagree on what should be done about it. More importantly, at this point you'd have to have your head in the sand to deny the existence of Dutch Disease in the country.


----------



## kps

*A mild case of ‘Dutch disease’

Canada’s waning competitiveness — not the high dollar — is the main cause of our manufacturing woes

By Mohammad Shakeri and Jeremy Leonard,*


A mild case of ?Dutch disease?


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> so Mohammad Shakeri, Richard Gray and Jeremy Leonard (the authors of the IRPP Study) all suffer from "questionable personal financial management"? Or how about Michel Beine, Charles S. Bos and Serge Coulombe? (authors of the study funded by the Harper Government, which BTW linked 63% of the drop in manufacturing jobs to the Dutch Disease phenomenon)


Did any of these learned gentlemen you mention mortgage their personal home 11 times?

Thought not. I rest my case.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> there's actually 2 studies screature (the one you've previously linked to and the one commissioned by the Harper government). I've read the conclusions of both.
> 
> We both can cherry pick quotes from the studies to support our views, but it doesn't really matter since as i said before people can disagree on what should be done about it. More importantly, at this point you'd have to have your head in the sand to deny the existence of Dutch Disease in the country.


The point is a mild case of Dutch Disease does not account for the comments from Mulcair and his politics of division. He is the one who is "cherry picking" facts because they play well to his constituency i.e. Quebec where the manufacturing loses have been greatest and at that only 2% of overall output:



> The largest declines in percentage terms occurred in textiles, apparel and leather products, which together account for less than 2 percent of manufacturing output.


It seems that if Mulcair were a doctor and he had a patient present with symptoms of the flu he would prescribe chemotherapy.

To quote again for emphasis for the IRPP report:



> *The problem in manufacturing is not a rise in the exchange rate per se, but rather sluggish productivity growth and, in more recent years, a cyclical downturn in domestic and global demand, which need to be addressed independently of future exchange rate trends.*


Here is a good article on the subject:

Is Canada suffering from 'Dutch disease'?
CBC



> To those unfamiliar with the economic concept, all the recent talk among Canada's political class about "Dutch disease" may have left you wondering what nasty ailment had befallen the poor people of the Netherlands.
> 
> The term has gained new attention courtesy of NDP Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair, who insists the phenomenon applies to Canada. Mulcair claims that "Dutch disease" has hit the country, blaming energy exports from the Alberta oilsands for artificially raising the Canadian dollar and hollowing out the manufacturing industry.
> 
> Coined in an article in The Economist in 1977, the concept refers to the adverse economic effects that the discovery of large natural gas fields off of the coast of the Netherlands in the 1960s had on the country's manufacturing sector.
> 
> The theory goes that a boom in a natural resource sector can lead to an appreciation of a country's real exchange rate. That increase in the dollar value makes exports more expensive, and has an adverse effect on the manufacturing sector by making it less competitive.
> 
> Mulcair has said that while shifting international trade patterns are responsible for some of the 500,000 manufacturing jobs that have been lost in Canada, "everyone concludes that more than half of them are being lost because we’re maintaining the Canadian dollar artificially high."
> 
> Mulcair said the problem is the government is not enforcing legislation that would include the environmental costs of exploiting natural resources.
> 
> "Those statistics with regard to the overall losses of jobs in Canada are irrefutable," he said this week. "And they are directly related to the fact that we’re not enforcing federal [environmental] legislation."
> 
> His remarks, predictably, have angered provincial leaders in the West and put the Tory government in attack mode.
> 
> The issue ramped up on Thursday during a particularly heated question period, as the government used the opportunity to fire back at Mulcair, accusing him of being anti-West.
> 
> "I am wondering when the leader of the Opposition will apologize to western Canadians for suggesting the strength of the western Canadian economy is a disease on Canada," Heritage Minister James Moore said in the House of Commons.
> 
> "He attacks western Canada, he attacks our energy industry, he attacks all of the West and the great work that is being done by western Canadians to contribute to Canada's national unity. He should be ashamed of himself," he said.
> 
> Following question period, Mulcair said the problem is how the government is allowing the oilsands to develop, "without applying basic rules of sustainable development, without applying the one rule of sustainable development, which is polluter pays."
> 
> "If you don’t include those costs, we’re doing the same thing as if we had a factory where we were pushing the garbage into a river in the back. It’s not the real profit, it’s not the real price. That’s driving the Canadian dollar up,” Mulcair said.
> 
> Yet a recent study by the Institute for Research on Public Policy (IRPP) seems to refute some of what Mulcair has said.
> 
> The report, titled Dutch Disease or Failure to Compete: A Diagnosis of Canada's Manufacturing Woes, concedes that Canada is suffering from a "mild case of the Dutch disease."
> 
> *It says it has caused "small surmountable problems for most manufacturing industries and larger challenges for the public finances of resource-rich provinces."*
> 
> *But it also concludes that it's not the exchange rate causing these problems, as Mulcair suggests, but "sluggish productivity growth" and a downturn in domestic and global demand.*
> 
> Of the 18 major manufacturing sectors studied in Canada, 11 saw a decline in output due to rising energy prices and the associated exchange rate increase, the report said. But 25 of 80 individual industries (which accounted for a quarter of manufacturing output) were adversely affected.
> 
> But the largest declines occurred in textiles, apparel and leather products, which account for less than two per cent of manufacturing output, the study found.
> 
> *Mulcair's case has also been hurt by a recent StatsCan report that revealed manufacturing output rose in March by 1.9 per cent — the biggest gain since last September.*
> 
> *In a recent interview on CBC's The House with Evan Solomon, Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney suggested he doesn't buy into the view that Canada is suffering from "Dutch disease."
> 
> Carney acknowledged that Canada's exports have not been strong over the course of the last decade, in part, due to a loss of competitiveness because of the strength of the currency as well as poor productivity.
> 
> "But actually, overall, what's been more important than the competitiveness issue, the so-called 'Dutch Disease' issue — I don't subscribe to that, but if you want to put it in that box — what's been more important has been the markets our firms have been focused on," he said.
> 
> He said Canada has been focused on slow-growing markets with 85 per cent of our exports going to slow-growth advanced economies.
> 
> "Only eight per cent of our exports are targeted at the fast-growing emerging markets. That's something that needs to change because there are longer term trends," he said.*
> 
> The IRPP report said that "Dutch disease" should be of concern only to the extent that it inflicts permanent damage on the rest of the economy.
> 
> "Even if a resource boom is more sustained... whether it causes lasting damage to the manufacturing sector or other sectors of the economy is a question to be answered empirically; permanent damage is not inevitable," the report said.


I'll take Mark Carney's opinion on *financial matter's*  any day over Thomas Mulcair's.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Some 'leader' this guy is:*
> 
> 
> 
> NDP leader has remortgaged his home 11 times since early 1980s





SINC said:


> Isn't the real point here is how does he have any credibility at all asking economic questions of the oil sands effects on the manufacturing sector? It was pointed out by many that he had no idea what he was talking about then and from the looks of his personal finances, he really doesn't have a clue.
> 
> Nothing to do with private or public information, just a shocking position for a party leader to be in.





SINC said:


> Not to mention questionable personal financial management which can easily carry over to his political life and affect his quality of leadership.





SINC said:


> Did any of these learned gentlemen you mention mortgage their personal home 11 times?
> 
> Thought not. I rest my case.


I'm so pleased you finally have something to say since there was no defending the practices and policies of Our Glorious Leader.

Very nice to take so much time to highlight that the leader of the ND Party is not corupt and not taking money from corporate interests such as Big Oil or the Gun Lobby.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I'm so pleased you finally have something to say since there was no defending the practices and policies of Our Glorious Leader.
> 
> Very nice to take so much time to highlight that the leader of the ND Party is not corupt and *not taking money from corporate interests such as Big Oil or the Gun Lobby*.


When has there ever been any evidence of any such thing? Please present it and not just your usual FUD... actual documented evidence.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I'm so pleased you finally have something to say since there was no defending the practices and policies of Our Glorious Leader.
> 
> Very nice to take so much time to highlight that the leader of the ND Party is not corupt and not taking money from corporate interests such as Big Oil or the Gun Lobby.


I have neither evidence to show that Mulcair is either corrupt or not corrupt. He seems a tad weak in his grasp of economics, but that is not against the law.


----------



## kps

screature said:


> When has there ever been any evidence of any such thing,? Please present it and not just your usual FUD... actual documented evidence.


That's all they have left...FUD.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> I'm so pleased you finally have something to say since there was no defending the practices and policies of *Our Glorious Leader*.
> 
> Very nice to take so much time to highlight that the leader of the ND Party is not corupt and not taking money from corporate interests such as Big Oil or the Gun Lobby.


Resorting to the very name calling that ehMax has asked be stopped adds nothing to the debate. The man's name is Harper and he doesn't live in North Korea.


----------



## MacDoc

article of the day

A Tory MP takes a brave stand against ? his previous brave stand - The Globe and Mail

made me laugh.....one of those dark humour laughs


----------



## MacDoc

> Resorting to the very name calling that ehMax has asked be stopped adds nothing to the debate. The man's name is Harper and he doesn't live in North Korea.


and that's ALL you have left to hide behind in trying to garner unearned respect for someone' who does not deserve it.
So ironic given past history.....*Cons* is so on the point.

seems all the but core "beleivers" have figured that out.












> *NDP leads, could win plurality of seats*
> After last week's teaser, Harris-Decima has completed and released the full results of their regular two-week survey. It increases the NDP lead by one (the last week must have been a good one for them) and points to the New Democrats being capable - for the first time, I believe - of winning the most seats in the House all on their own.


ThreeHundredEight.com: NDP leads, could win plurality of seats


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> A Tory MP takes a brave stand against ? his previous brave stand - The Globe and Mail


This nice little illustration of Harper's dictatorial style (and its anti-democratic consequences) is particularly amusing in the context of SINC's personal crusade to outlaw the use of "Our Glorious Leader."


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> ThreeHundredEight.com: NDP leads, could win plurality of seats


Nice to see the Dippers holding onto their support in QC post-Layton. I wouldn't have predicted that.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Nice to see the Dippers holding onto their support in QC post-Layton. I wouldn't have predicted that.


I would have. The promise to separatists remains intact.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> seems all the but* core "beleivers"* have figured that out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThreeHundredEight.com: NDP leads, could win plurality of seats


Seems like you haven't looked at the numbers very closely.... at any rate even when the polls were very much in favor of the Conservatives I always said the only important poll is the one taken on election day... if you want to get all giddy on these numbers it is certainly your right but incredibly premature.


----------



## BigDL

*De-rail averted*



screature said:


> When has there ever been any evidence of any such thing? Please present it and not just your usual FUD... actual documented evidence.


As Canadians we should all thankful for Stephen Leacock in general and in this particular instance for his oh so appropriate quote of


Stephen Leacock said:


> "...madly off in all directions."


Why the attempt to, once again, derail this thread?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> As Canadians we should all thankful for Stephen Leacock in general and in this particular instance for his oh so appropriate quote of
> 
> Why the attempt to, once again, derail this thread?


No further derail necessary with post material like the above. It does the task admirably.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Seems like you haven't looked at the numbers very closely.... at any rate even when the polls were very much in favor of the Conservatives I always said the only important poll is the one taken on election day... if you want to get all giddy on these numbers it is certainly your right but incredibly premature.


Once the Liberals doff Bob Rae, they can begin to take back some of the NDP gains--except in Quebec, where they will not make the same promises to separatists as those offered by the NDP.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> As Canadians we should all thankful for Stephen Leacock in general and in this particular instance for his oh so appropriate quote of
> 
> Why the attempt to, once again, derail this thread?


Uhmmm, I asked for evidence of the statement you made in your post therefore logically if there is any derailing being done and "going off madly in all directions" it is by you sir. 

So I guess you have nothing... just as I expected.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Uhmmm, I asked for evidence of the statement you made in your post therefore logically if there is any derailing being done and "going off madly in all directions" it is by you sir.
> 
> So I guess you have nothing... just as I expected.


In some dictionaries, apparently, _derailing_ is defined as "Asking for evidence or proof."


----------



## i-rui

i think if you go back and re-read what he posted he doesn't have to "prove" anything (unless you mean prove that Mulcair didn't take money from big oil or the gun lobby.... which is silly since you can't prove a negative).


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Did any of these learned gentlemen you mention mortgage their personal home 11 times?
> 
> Thought not. I rest my case.


i have no idea. i'm pretty sure you don't either.

even if they did it wouldn't change anything. the presumption that an economist's view is no longer valid because they've refinanced their home is akin to saying a doctor's expertise is no longer relevant because they have diabetes.

it doesn't hold water.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i think if you go back and re-read what he posted he doesn't have to "prove" anything (unless you mean prove that Mulcair didn't take money from big oil or the gun lobby.... which is silly since you can't prove a negative).


It is obvious by way of implication that BigDL was suggesting that "OGL" did. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out... but maybe someone with blinders on cannot see it.


----------



## i-rui

the point is he didn't say anything that needs proof, so it's kind of silly to demand he produce any.

there may be an implication there but it certainly isn't explicit. for someone who constantly enshrouds himself in semantics you should appreciate that.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> i have no idea. i'm pretty sure you don't either.
> 
> even if they did it wouldn't change anything. the presumption that an economist's view is no longer valid because they've refinanced their home is akin to saying a doctor's expertise is no longer relevant because they have diabetes.
> 
> it doesn't hold water.


What doesn't hold water is your comparison. When a party leader who should be well versed in economics demonstrates he cannot adequately control his own mortgage, it certainly does reflect on potential harm he might do to the finances of the country if he gained control. That fact cannot be denied.

As for the doctor analogy it is meaningless as doctors do not control the finances of the nation. If a doctor makes a medical mistake, he loses patients and so he should. People then chose another more competent doctor.

The same applies to Mulcair. He too, like the doctor, can be replaced.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> It is obvious by way of implication that BigDL was suggesting that "OGL" did. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out... but maybe someone with blinders on cannot see it.





SINC said:


> What doesn't hold water is your comparison. When a party leader who should be well versed in economics demonstrates he cannot adequately control his own mortgage, it certainly does reflect on potential harm he might do to the finances of the country if he gained control. That fact cannot be denied.
> 
> As for the doctor analogy it is meaningless as doctors do not control the finances of the nation. If a doctor makes a medical mistake, he loses patients and so he should. People then chose another more competent doctor.
> 
> The same applies to Mulcair. He too, like the doctor, can be replaced.


Well what a field day for the heat. 

No evidence is produced, just repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat again, then no proof is required. 

The right way of doing baseless smears and unfounded accusation perhaps.

To paraphrase the classic movie, Casablanca, "...round up of the usual suspects."


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> No evidence is produced, just repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat again, then no proof is required.


No evidence or proof of WHAT?


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> What doesn't hold water is your comparison. When a party leader who should be well versed in economics demonstrates he cannot adequately control his own mortgage, it certainly does reflect on potential harm he might do to the finances of the country if he gained control. That fact cannot be denied.


What, never heard the expression "Shoemaker's wives go barefoot."?

In any case:
1) Paying off a mortgage isn't necessarily a sign of economic knowledge. There are times when it makes sense to keep refinancing (for example, it's often a good thing in commercial real estate to leverage the heck out of every asset) and there are times when it doesn't (for example, when someone has no other source of income but their salary and no other savings beyond the forced accumulation of equity in their home.) This doesn't tell us anything without more detail... which brings me to #2

2) The details are personal. As entertaining as it may be to poke at a politician's personal life, ultimately that becomes a tiresome distraction from real issues.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal, I would consider this sort of personal financial failure a significant voting issue.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> When a party leader who should be well versed in economics demonstrates he cannot adequately control his own mortgage,


what does "adequately control his own mortgage" even mean? Is he bankrupt? nope. Has he missed a mortgage payment? don't think so. Does his salary afford him the means to comfortably make his payments? It would certainly seem so.



SINC said:


> ...it certainly does reflect on potential harm he might do to the finances of the country if he gained control. That fact cannot be denied.


that's not a *fact*. it's an *opinion* on a baseless assumption. You are of course entitled to hold that opinion, but please don't confuse it with facts. 

Facts are things like this :

-The Harper government is the highest spending government in Canadian History.
-The Harper government has increased Canadian Debt to it's highest level in Canadian History.
-The Harper government has grown government more than any other government in Canadian History.

Now knowing those facts a reasonable person might conclude that the Harper government is not qualified to handle the finances of the country, because those facts are actually relevant to a country's finances.....not an individual's decision to refinance their own private asset, which is irrelevant.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Sonal, I would consider this sort of personal financial failure a significant voting issue.


Yes, as you are likely to vote for Mulcair and something like this might stop you. 

I don't agree that it's necessarily a personal financial failure. I know a lot of real estate investors who leverage the heck out of their personal houses in order to invest in better things. It's not necessarily a bad strategy. (Heck, my dad jokes that he can't sleep at night unless he's in debt--that way he knows all of his assets are working for him.) 

In any case, seeing as Mulcair has a pretty good guaranteed income for some time (pension, MP's salary) he doesn't necessarily need the same kind of forced-savings-via equity that the average Canadian typically needs.

In any case, I'm not the only one thinks that it's not necessarily indicative of a failure.
Does Mulcair have it right? | Personal Finance | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Yes, as you are likely to vote for Mulcair and something like this might stop you.


I meant for a _normal_ candidate.


----------



## MacDoc




----------



## SINC

The view in the west:

Lamphier: Mulcair's fixation on Dutch disease simple-minded

GUNTER: Mulcair deluded


----------



## Macfury

SINC, I agree. Mulcair weeps bitter tears of anger about the success of the energy sector but has nothing to offer except beating down the energy sector. Its a typical page from the socialist playbook of fomenting envy over the success of others.


----------



## Dr.G.

"International Cooperation Minister Bev Oda's office is refusing to say whether she has paid taxpayers back for any inappropriate travel costs in addition to the lavish hotel and chauffeured car she expensed for a trip to London last summer.

Oda's office also won't say why travel expenses for trips to Haiti, Korea and East Africa over the last year have been amended on her department's proactive disclosure website."

Oda's staff silent on travel expense changes - Politics - CBC News

I call this smart accounting -- pay back the taxpayers of Canada for what you overspent, and then pump up the actual expenses from other trips to cover these costs ................... with the money coming from the taxpayers of Canada.


----------



## screature

The accounting doesn't work like this Dr. G. If the costs of the other trips were to be amended upward, the Minister would not be reimbursed. The costs would be deducted from her Members Operating Budget (MOB).


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> The accounting doesn't work like this Dr. G. If the costs of the other trips were to be amended upward, the Minister would not be reimbursed. The costs would be deducted from her Members Operating Budget (MOB).


Thanks, screature, for this info. So long as Min. Oda does not have to take money out of her own pocket to make up for the reimbursement, that is fine with me. The Canadian taxpayer has far deeper pockets than Min. Oda, and we should be the one footing the bills. Why she could not stay at the Savoy is beyond me. Why not the best for one of our distinguished ministers in The Harper Government of Canada???

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Thanks, screature, for this info. So long as Min. Oda does not have to take money out of her own pocket to make up for the reimbursement, that is fine with me. The Canadian taxpayer has far deeper pockets than Min. Oda, and we should be the one footing the bills. Why she could not stay at the Savoy is beyond me. Why not the best for one of our distinguished ministers in The Harper Government of Canada???
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


What I am trying to tell you is that the scheme you outline would not work that way because the Minister wasn't paying out of pocket in the first place. Thus the reason why she most recently reimbursed the government for her extravagances. If other expenditures were updated upward they would not and could not be done so to cover off what the Minister paid back, i.e. she would not receive any money as you seem to suggest.

I'm not trying to defend the Minister just correct the notion (that you seem to be attempting to concoct) that there is some sort of accounting scheme going on in which the Minister will be paid back the money she paid back.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> What I am trying to tell you is that the scheme you outline would not work that way because the Minister wasn't paying out of pocket in the first place. Thus the reason why she most recently reimbursed the government for her extravagances. If other expenditures were updated upward they would not and could not be done so to cover off what the Minister paid back, i.e. she would not receive any money.


I got from the article that she was trying to bump up expenses from other trips to get more reimbursed as a way of paying off what she had to pay from this last trip. Maybe I was wrong, or it was typical CBC slandering a fine minister in the House. Bottom line, Min. Oda should not have to pay anything to the Canadian government since she was representing us, and as a minister of the crown, she too is on a limited budget with a specific amount of income. She should have the right to stay wherever she wants to stay, so long as she is on government business, and the Canadian taxpayer should just be quiet and let ministers like her do her job.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I got from the article that she was trying to bump up expenses from other trips to get more reimbursed as a way of paying off what she had to pay from this last trip. Maybe I was wrong, or it was typical CBC slandering a fine minister in the House. Bottom line, Min. Oda should not have to pay anything to the Canadian government since she was representing us, and as a minister of the crown, she too is on a limited budget with a specific amount of income. She should have the right to stay wherever she wants to stay, so long as she is on government business, and the Canadian taxpayer should just be quiet and let ministers like her do her job.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


The story indicates that the expenses for the trips were amended primarily because of adjusted billings for her staff:



> The proactive disclosure section of Oda's department website shows expenses for the following trips have been amended:
> 
> Meal expenses for Oda, Rea, and one of Oda's policy advisors, Alayna Johnson, were amended for a trip to Haiti in January. The total cost of the trip for all three people was $10,034.34.
> "Other expenses" filed for Oda's trip to Korea in late November and early December were amended. Johnson's expenses for transportation, accommodation, meals and "other expenses" were also amended. The total cost of the trip for Oda and Johnson was $15,166.32
> Oda, her executive assistant Clarissa Lamb and Johnson travelled to Kenya and Sudan last July and their airfare expenses have been amended. They each spent around $9,000 according to the most recent posting. Total expenses for the trip were $32,799.21. That includes $523 in airfare that Johnson spent for an "urgent return" from Calgary so that she could go with Oda to East Africa.


Such amendments to expenses are not uncommon as receipts can be misplaced to be later found.

However what is disconcerting is that they are not forth coming for the reasons for the amendments. That isn't acceptable.


----------



## i-rui

great article for those with open minds about the debate:

Dutch Disease denial: Inflation, politics and tar | rabble.ca


----------



## i-rui

also this :

Pipeline spill sends 22,000 barrels of oil mix into Alberta muskeg - The Globe and Mail



> As with many recent pipeline accidents, Calgary-based Pace did not detect a problem, but was informed of the leak by another company after the spill was spotted from an aircraft.


how can canadians expect our environment to be protected if these companies don't even have the means to properly monitor the thousands of KMs of pipes they've constructed? it's a serious problem IMO


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> great article for those with open minds about the debate:
> 
> Dutch Disease denial: Inflation, politics and tar | rabble.ca


Not particularly good. It seems fixated on oil. All exports change the balance of trade and alter the value of currency. However, since we can't force people to buy our manufactured goods, I'm grateful for oil. 

screature has, several times, posted a study showing how little this effect has had on Canadian manufacturing.


----------



## Dr.G.

"The Opposition is questioning why the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans plans to close six financial support offices across the country and consolidate their work in Fredericton, N.B., in the riding of Fisheries Minister Keith Ashfield."

NDP questions move of DFO services into minister's riding - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News

This makes a great deal of sense. Why have DFO offices in St.John's, Halifax, Charlottetown and in coastal BC communities when you can put it all in Fredericton .......... the center for fishing here in Canada. Fredericton does have one of the largest harbors in all of North America and is the hub for shipping, be it the fishery or off-shore oil and gas drilling. I even think that Fredericton is gaining an international reputation as one of the key port-of-calls for the large cruise ships to dock in the Port of Fredericton and to have their thousands of passengers come ashore to see Fredericton (Full disclosure -- Fredericton is one of my favorite Canadian cities). So, it seems like a win-win for all concerned.


----------



## BigDL

It's new and probably just an oversight but Fredericton's State of the Art all robotic Roll on Roll off Gantry Post Panamax Container facility the only one in the world, not to forget multiplicity of rail services of the many railway and railroad companies that frequent that city.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> It's new and probably just an oversight but Fredericton's State of the Art all robotic Roll on Roll off Gantry Post Panamax Container facility the only one in the world, not to forget multiplicity of rail services of the many railway and railroad companies that frequent that city.


This is great ............... and right at the water's edge. Very convenient. A good selection for the cental DFO office in Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

Looks like things will be heating up this summer in Quebec with the breakdown of talks with the students.  

In order to pay only $2,519 per year on average, Quebec students enjoy a sky-high subsidy from their province for the cost of education. Quebec taxpayers foot the bill for 70 per cent of the cost of education, the second-highest rate in the country

The only province that subsidizes education costs to a greater extent than Quebec is Newfoundland & Labrador. Covering 77 per cent of the cost of education with tax dollars, the province makes sure tuition is cheap. Newfoundland & Labrador is the only province in Canada where tuition is actually cheaper than it was at the turn of the millennium, with tuition now set at a frozen level of $2,649.


----------



## Macfury

Sadly, the world will not have the benefit of their many esoteric degrees this years, as they are too busy striking.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Sadly, the world will not have the benefit of their many esoteric degrees this years, as they are too busy striking.


Hopefully, Canada will benefit more from their striking to promote access to education than we would have from their actual education.

I do see it as important that the students that have the least to benefit from their cause are the first to strike. That shows some integrity and genuine concern for our society, even if you don't agree with them.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Hopefully, Canada will benefit more from their striking to promote access to education than we would have from their actual education.
> 
> I do see it as important that the students that have the least to benefit from their cause are the first to strike. That shows some integrity and *genuine concern for our society*, even if you don't agree with them.


It shows genuine concern for their own financial situation and sense of entitlement...


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> In order to pay only $2,519 per year on average, Quebec students enjoy a sky-high subsidy from their province for the cost of education. Quebec taxpayers foot the bill for 70 per cent of the cost of education, the second-highest rate in the country
> 
> .


Not to mention 8-10 billion dollars a year in transfer payments from the feds. So, we're all paying.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> I shows genuine concern for their own financial situation and sense of entitlement...


If you think students in other provinces don't possess these characteristics in spades, I invite you to visit any university campus in the country. What the students in Quebec recognize is that advanced education benefits society as well as the individual, and therefore that lowering the barriers to advanced education is a good investment for society to make.

The fact that Quebec and Newfoundland are investing more than other provinces just means that students protesting the reduction of this investment in these provinces have *less* personal motivation for doing so. So while they obviously have self-interest, they may also be altruistically motivated.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> If you think students in other provinces don't possess these characteristics in spades, I invite you to visit any university campus in the country. What the students in Quebec recognize is that advanced education benefits society as well as the individual, and therefore that lowering the barriers to advanced education is a good investment for society to make.
> 
> The fact that Quebec and Newfoundland are investing more than other provinces just means that students protesting the reduction of this investment in these provinces have *less* personal motivation for doing so. So while they obviously have self-interest, they may also be altruistically motivated.


An interesting point, bryanc. There is support here for a tuition freeze, helped, in part, by off-shore oil revenues here in NL.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> If you think students in other provinces don't possess these characteristics in spades, I invite you to visit any university campus in the country. *What the students in Quebec recognize is that advanced education benefits society as well as the individual, and therefore that lowering the barriers to advanced education is a good investment for society to make.*
> 
> The fact that Quebec and Newfoundland are investing more than other provinces just means that students protesting the reduction of this investment in these provinces have *less* personal motivation for doing so. So while they obviously have self-interest, they may also be altruistically motivated.


That's you reflecting your values onto them. You don't know that to be true at all. Some may feel this way but it would be far from universal... they are still human beings and as such are individuals all with their own ideas and values.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> That's you reflecting your values onto them.


It's true, everyone see's things through the filters of their own values. Which is perhaps why I see them as altruistic and you see them as selfish


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> do see it as important that the students that have the least to benefit from their cause are the first to strike. *That shows some integrity and genuine concern for our society, even if you don't agree with them.*


So much for the Scientific Method. 

I suspect panhandlers exposing themselves to the elements to their own discomfort may also be showing us that they have genuine "integrity and concern for our society" by eliminating poverty.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> It's true*, everyone see's things through the filters of their own values.* Which is perhaps why I see them as altruistic and you see them as selfish


Despite your glib attempt at humor, self glorification and deprecating me this is not necessarily true at all. Some people are able to detach from their own values and are capable of objectively observing things as they are rather than as how they wish or desire they would be... for example as a scientist I would hope you are capable of doing this from time to time.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Not necessarily true at all, some people are able to detach from their own values and are capable of objectively observing things as they are rather than as how they wish or desire they would be... for example as a scientist I would hope you are capable of doing this from time to time.


Exactly. Ascribing altruism to selfish motives does not make the person who does this altruistic. They may be leveraging their own selfishness by calling selfish behaviour altruistic.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Ascribing altruism to selfish motives does not make the person who does this altruistic. They may be leveraging their own selfishness by calling selfish behaviour altruistic.


In my experience of people there are very few acts of altruism, giving up one's life for the sake of another is one that stands out. But aside from that most acts even when doing "good" for someone else usually produces some sense of satisfaction in the person who is doing the good so there is a "reward" for the person doing that "good", thus it is not entirely altruistic as they are receiving something beneficial in return even if it is only as simple as a sense of personal satisfaction.


----------



## MacDoc

Altruism is just a variation of self interest - despite some of the chest beating claims to the contrary.


----------



## Sonal

Selfishness gets a bad rap.

Nothing wrong with looking out for number one, and if other people benefit along the way, that's a good thing.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Selfishness gets a bad rap.
> 
> Nothing wrong with looking out for number one, and if other people benefit along the way, that's a good thing.


Absolutely. Altruism has an unnecessarily favourable reputation.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Despite your glib attempt at humor, self glorification and deprecating me this is not necessarily true at all.


It was meant as a joke. Sorry if I offended.



> Some people are able to detach from their own values and are capable of objectively observing things as they are rather than as how they wish or desire they would be... for example as a scientist I would hope you are capable of doing this from time to time.


Actually, as a scientist, I'm intensely aware of how difficult it is to be objective, which is why I rely on empirical measurements, rather than judgements. The data is what it is, regardless of what I might want it to be.

When people say they "see things as they are" I'm always very skeptical, especially with regard to complex things like justice, or social values. I doubt very much that anyone can know what the true value of things like education or health are. We all value these things, but to different degrees and in different ways in different contexts.

We are certainly all self-motivated, as we should be. But part of our social contract is to take some of the wealth earned by those who can afford to be taxed and re-invest it in aspects of our society that we all agree are mutually beneficial. Education is one of these investments. The only question is how much should we invest? The protesters in Quebec are arguing against the reduction in this investment. To paint their protest as self-centred is not entirely fair: of course it will benefit them, but it will also benefit everyone else.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Absolutely. Altruism has an unnecessarily favourable reputation.


Exactly. 

For example, some people selfishly don't want to live in a society full of dumbasses.  :lmao:


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> It was meant as a joke. Sorry if I offended.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, as a scientist, I'm intensely aware of how difficult it is to be objective, which is why I rely on empirical measurements, rather than judgements. The data is what it is, regardless of what I might want it to be.
> 
> When people say they "see things as they are" I'm always very skeptical, especially with regard to complex things like justice, or social values. I doubt very much that anyone can know what the true value of things like education or health are. We all value these things, but to different degrees and in different ways in different contexts.
> 
> We are certainly all self-motivated, as we should be. But part of our social contract is to take some of the wealth earned by those who can afford to be taxed and re-invest it in aspects of our society that we all agree are mutually beneficial. Education is one of these investments. The only question is how much should we invest? The protesters in Quebec are arguing against the reduction in this investment. To paint their protest as self-centred is not entirely fair: of course it will benefit them,* but it will also benefit everyone else*.


Debatable... but it will certainly cost all tax payers.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Exactly.
> 
> For example, some people selfishly don't want to live in a society full of dumbasses.  :lmao:


Being educated doesn't mean you're not a dumbass. I know plenty of highly educated dumbasses.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Debatable... but it will certainly cost all tax payers.


it will cost everyone--even those for whom their educations hold no value.


----------



## i-rui

more on the horrible omnibus budget bill :

Protecting Canada’s fisheries: an open letter to Stephen Harper - The Globe and Mail

four former federal ministers of Fisheries and Oceans (including 2 *conservatives*) plead with Harper to be reasonable & responsible.


----------



## BigDL

I applaude the student's efforts. For far too long youth sat back, now a generation is taking to the streets to say no to any tuition increase.

They are not compromising, just as the protesting students of the sixties did not compromise with regard the issues of institutional racism or war, those students acted in a principled manner, as are today's students.

Nice to see participatory democracy in action once again.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I applaude the student's efforts. For far too long youth sat back, now a generation is taking to the streets to say no to any tuition increase.
> 
> They are not compromising, just as the protesting students of the sixties did not compromise with regard the issues of institutional racism or war, those students acted in a principled manner, as are today's students.
> 
> Nice to see participatory democracy in action once again.


Their hands aren't stretched out to protest a war or racism--their palms are turned up to receive the cash earned by the hard work of others. What a parallel!


----------



## mrjimmy

BigDL said:


> I applaude the student's efforts. For far too long youth sat back, now a generation is taking to the streets to say no to any tuition increase.
> 
> They are not compromising, just as the protesting students of the sixties did not compromise with regard the issues of institutional racism or war, those students acted in a principled manner, as are today's students.
> 
> Nice to see participatory democracy in action once again.


I agree BigDL.

Let's hope it sends a message to all the fascists in waiting out there disguising themselves as agents of democracy.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> I agree BigDL.
> 
> Let's hope it sends a message to* all the fascists* in waiting out there disguising themselves as agents of democracy.


Who would these fascists be that you speak of?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Their hands aren't stretched out to protest a war or racism--their palms are turned up to receive the cash earned by the hard work of others. What a parallel!


Agreed. A very poor comparison indeed.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Who would these fascists be that you speak of?


Anyone who has it in them screature.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Anyone who has it in them screature.


And students protesting tuition hikes are going to deter those inclinations?


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> And students protesting tuition hikes are going to deter those inclinations?


I was addressing BigDL screature. Taking your bait is not part of my weekend (or any other day's) plans.


----------



## screature

Oh Ok I see. I thought people came to a forum to engage in discussions. If you wanted to keep it private then a PM may have been the better way to go.

Have a great week-end.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Have a great week-end.


You too!


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> You too!


Is it as grey and wet in your part of the world as it is here? Here we are in for a soaker by the looks of it.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Opposition MPs aren't the only ones making Bev Oda's spending habits a thorn in the government's side – her own colleague, Conservative MP John Williamson, is also raising them as a point of contention within their caucus.

Williamson used to head the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and was also Prime Minister Stephen Harper's director of communications before he stepped down to run for his New Brunswick seat.

He confirmed to CBC News that he brought up the minister of international co-operation's travel and hospitality expenses behind closed doors at a weekly Conservative caucus meeting. Williamson would not elaborate on what he said, citing caucus confidentiality."

Oda's travel expenses cause dissent in Tory caucus - Politics - CBC News

An interesting take on this matter. We shall see if Williamson's former roles as head the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's director of communications will have any sway.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> "Opposition MPs aren't the only ones making Bev Oda's spending habits a thorn in the government's side – her own colleague, Conservative MP John Williamson, is also raising them as a point of contention within their caucus.
> 
> Williamson used to head the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and was also Prime Minister Stephen Harper's director of communications before he stepped down to run for his New Brunswick seat.
> 
> He confirmed to CBC News that he brought up the minister of international co-operation's travel and hospitality expenses behind closed doors at a weekly Conservative caucus meeting. Williamson would not elaborate on what he said, citing caucus confidentiality."
> 
> Oda's travel expenses cause dissent in Tory caucus - Politics - CBC News
> 
> An interesting take on this matter. We shall see if Williamson's former roles as head the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's director of communications will have any sway.


I think that a fairly significant Cabinet shuffle is coming in the fall and Minister Oda will most likely be demoted to a portfolio that does not require international travel. That is my prediction anyway... time will tell.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I think that a fairly significant Cabinet shuffle is coming in the fall and Minister Oda will most likely be demoted to a portfolio that does not require international travel. That is my prediction anyway... time will tell.


I think that you are very accurate in this speculation, screature. This is becoming a comedy of effors, with Min. Oda in the center ring. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Oh Ok I see. I thought people came to a forum to engage in discussions.


Seems to me many people come to a forum to post as they see fit to post. 

It could be to make a statement, could be to share a point of view, could be to make a quip based on straight ahead humour or satire, could be some post to entertain themselves at expense of other's felling or other's sense of justice, or it could be to enter into a discussion.


----------



## Sonal

‘To allow C-38 to masquerade as a legitimate omnibus bill will bring our institutions into greater disrepute’ - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca

Elizabeth May on why C-38 is not legitimately an omnibus bill, and should not be permitted to stand. (Long, but interesting read.)


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Elizabeth May on why C-38 is not legitimately an omnibus bill, and should not be permitted to stand. (Long, but interesting read.)


Interesting indeed. For the tl;dr types, here's an excerpt from the conclusion:


Elizabeth May said:


> I acknowledge that democracy is not a permanent state of existence. It can be won, as in Arab Spring. And it can be lost. It can be lost through violence; it can be lost through neglect.
> 
> It does not survive without the constant application of checks on abuse of power. It needs openness. Those things done by stealth invariably breed an unhealthy loss of respect in our democratic institutions. Sunlight is a great antiseptic. The myriad, unrelated pieces of legislation under cover of C-38, should, to respect Westminster Parliamentary democracy, be brought out of the shadows, and be tabled separately, and studied on their own merit.


:clap:

I'm sure the Speaker of the House will wait for instructions from the PMO before siding with the government.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> ‘To allow C-38 to masquerade as a legitimate omnibus bill will bring our institutions into greater disrepute’ - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca
> 
> Elizabeth May on why C-38 is not legitimately an omnibus bill, and should not be permitted to stand. (Long, but interesting read.)


Interesting points of law here, Sonal. Wonder if they will have any merit is stopping or delaying this bill? We shall see.

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Interesting indeed. For the tl;dr types, here's an excerpt from the conclusion:
> 
> :clap:
> *
> I'm sure the Speaker of the House will wait for instructions from the PMO before siding with the government.*


This is an outrageous comment. The Speaker of the House has to be trusted with impartiality and consults broadly with his clerks and other council before coming to a ruling which is based largely on precedent.

This comment is partisanship run amok and personally I find it offensive.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> This comment is partisanship run amok and personally I find it offensive.


:baby:
What, is Scheer a friend of yours or something? Or do you actually believe he's impartial?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> :baby:
> What, is Scheer a friend of yours or something? Or do you actually believe he's impartial?


Baby? Really? Ok how about this? tptptptp

The Speaker does not and never has consulted with PMO for the decisions he/she makes to suggest so it undermine the very nature of the Speakers role and our Parliamentary process. Yes I believe he is as impartial in his rulings as any speaker has ever been.

I do not have to be a friend of Sheers to know that effectively the Speaker is like a Supreme Court Judge and while others may not agree with their rulings to call into question the ethics or morals you should have some pretty damned solid evidence and not just angry partisanship as the premise for your claims.


----------



## i-rui

Scheer ruled that when the conservative party called voters in Liberal MP Irwin Cotler's riding telling them that the MP was going to resign and there could be a byelection it was "reprehensible", but somehow *NOT* a breach of his parliamentary privilege (because you know, every MP should expect to have his constituents lied to and told they were resigning...it's just part of day ins and day outs of doing their job).

I think we all know how this will play out.


----------



## screature

There were very good reasons for why he ruled the way he did... just in case you only read media reports about the ruling instead of the ruling itself here it is in full:



> I am now prepared to rule on the question of privilege raised on November 16, 2011, by the hon. member for Mount Royal regarding the negative impact an organized telephone campaign survey conducted in his constituency has had on his work and reputation.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> I would like to thank the hon. member for Mount Royal for having raised this important matter, having responded to the comments of other members and having provided the Chair with additional material in support of his allegations. The Chair would also like to thank the Government House Leader, the House Leader of the Official Opposition and the members for Richmond—Arthabaska, Saanich—Gulf Islands and Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte for their comments as well as the member for New Brunswick Southwest for his interventions.
> 
> + -(1505)
> 
> [English]
> 
> In presenting his case, the hon. member for Mount Royal states that several constituents had contacted him about survey calls they had received from a telephone number identified as Campaign Research Inc., asking if they would support the Conservative Party in the “impending, if not imminent, by-election”.
> 
> He has also informed the House that similar calls were placed to citizens in the Westmount—Ville-Marie constituency. The hon. member for Mount Royal stated that this telephone campaign led his constituents and other voters to think that he had deserted his post, and overshadowed his parliamentary work. Noting that the House has the right to the services of its members free from intimidation, obstruction and interference, he claimed that the confusion created among his electors was damaging his reputation and his credibility.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> In the case before us, no one disputes the fact that there is no pending by-election. Yet the hon. member for Mount Royal explains that he has been put in an ambiguous situation through this telephone campaign. He says:
> 
> [English]
> 
> Simply put, how am I, or any member, to effectively represent a constituency if the constituents are led to believe that the member is no longer their elected representative? How can one correct the confusion and prejudicial damage that has been done in the minds of those who may think I am no longer their representative in Parliament or no longer discharging my duties?
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> To support his argument, the member cited a ruling of Speaker Bosley, as found on page 4439 of the Debates of May 6, 1985, which states:
> 
> It should go without saying that a Member of Parliament needs to perform his functions effectively and that anything tending to cause confusion as to a Member’s identity creates the possibility of an impediment to the fulfilment of that Member’s functions. Any action which impedes or tends to impede a Member in the discharge of his duties is a breach of privilege.
> 
> [English]
> 
> The Chair finds striking the repeated emphasis that the member has placed on the importance of this issue not only for himself but for all members. This point has also been stressed by other members who intervened. Because of the Chair's primordial concern for the preservation of the privileges of all members, this is a matter worthy of serious consideration. As your Speaker, one of my principal responsibilities is to ensure that the rights and privileges of members are safeguarded, and this is a responsibility I take very seriously.
> 
> The member for New Brunswick Southwest argues, on the contrary, that the House should not even be seized of this question because “...it lies outside its authority”. He claims that:
> 
> —the...conduct of political parties should not be judged by the House or by its members....The best place for this to be judged is among Canadians, not in the House...
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> The Chair has no doubt that Canadians are indeed judging this matter, just as they are constantly judging this House by what happens here and what is said here and by the attitude that members display toward one another.
> 
> [English]
> 
> It does not matter that the resources of the House of Commons itself were not used to carry on this particular campaign. On this point, let me point out that the rights and immunities of individual members can be breached by a wide range of actions and that such actions are not limited, as has been suggested, to actions taken in the House or actions involving the use of House resources.
> 
> At the same time, in listening to the arguments on this question, I have seen that a certain confusion seems to exist with regard to the extent of the powers of the Speaker in dealing with questions of privilege. Several members have ascribed to the Chair seemingly vast powers that neither I nor my predecessors have ever possessed. The role of the Chair is actually very limited, as the hon. member for Mount Royal has himself pointed out, citing O'Brien and Bosc, at page 145:
> 
> —the issue put before the Speaker is not a finding of fact, it is simply whether on first impression the issue that is before the House warrants priority consideration over all other matters, all other orders of the day that are before the House.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> In cases where a member alleges that he has experienced interference in the performance of his parliamentary duties, the Speaker’s task is particularly difficult. As O’Brien and Bosc states at page 111:
> 
> It is impossible to codify all incidents which might be interpreted as matters of obstruction, interference, molestation or intimidation and as such constitute prima facie cases of privilege.
> 
> [English]
> 
> Furthermore, in ruling on questions of privilege of this kind, the Chair is obliged to assess whether or not the member's ability to fulfill his parliamentary functions has been undermined. House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition, at page 109, notes that my predecessors have stressed the importance of establishing a direct link to parliamentary duties in such cases, stating that:
> 
> —rulings have focused on whether or not the parliamentary functions of the Member were directly involved. While frequently noting that Members raising such matters have legitimate grievances, Speakers have consistently concluded that Members have not been prevent from carrying out their parliamentary duties.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> In the Bosley decision cited by the member for Mount Royal, the Speaker was confronted with a situation where the former member of Parliament was identified in a print advertisement as the sitting member: the very identity of the sitting member was at issue.
> 
> + -(1510)
> 
> [English]
> 
> In the case at hand, the Chair is entirely sympathetic to the situation faced by the member for Mount Royal. There is no doubt that he has been bombarded by telephone calls, emails and faxes from concerned and confused constituents. However, the Chair has great difficulty in concluding that the member has been unable to carry out his parliamentary duties as a result of these tactics. The member for Mount Royal has been extremely active in the House and in committee. By raising the matter in the House as he has done, the hon. member has brought attention to a questionable form of voter identification practice and described in detail the negative impact it has had. Indeed, his interventions here in the House on this very question have garnered, as he himself points out, extensive sympathetic coverage in media across the country.
> 
> In a ruling delivered on August 12, 1988, Debates, page 18,272, Speaker Fraser stated that:
> 
> Past precedents are highly restrictive...and generally require that clear evidence of obstruction or interference with a Member in the exercise of his or her duty be demonstrated in order to form the basis for a claim of a breach of privilege.
> 
> Speaker Milliken, in a ruling from February 12, 2009, also stressed this point:
> 
> —adjudicating questions of privilege of this kind, the Speaker is bound to assess whether or not the member's ability to fulfill his parliamentary functions effectively has been undermined.
> 
> As I considered the member for Mount Royal's case, a second ruling by Speaker John Fraser has resonated particularly for me. On May 5, 1987, Speaker Fraser concluded:
> 
> Given all the circumstances in this case, I am sure that the Minister's capacity to function as a Minister and Member of this House is in no way impaired. I point out to honourable Members that this is the real issue of privilege, although there are obviously other matters that surround the particular fact in this case....the Chair has to look very carefully at the exact point of privilege.
> 
> In today's case, too, the so-called surrounding matters have given me pause. I am sure that all reasonable people would agree that attempting to sow confusion in the minds of voters as to whether or not their member is about to resign is a reprehensible tactic and that the hon. member for Mount Royal has a legitimate grievance.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> I would hope that his airing of this grievance and the discussions this case has provoked—here in the House and in the media—will lead to two results. On the one hand, managers of legitimate exercises in voter identification should be more careful in the information they disseminate to the people they contact. On the other hand, Canadians contacted this way should be more wary and judge more critically any information presented to them by unsolicited callers.
> 
> [English]
> 
> I can understand how the member for Mount Royal and others are seeking relief from the climate of cynicism, not to say contempt, about parliamentary institutions and practice that seem to prevail. But I fear that such relief is not within my gift: the Speaker's powers in these matters are limited, as my predecessors have repeatedly stated.
> 
> The words of Speaker Fraser in a ruling of December 11, 1991, seem particularly apt in these circumstances:
> 
> The Chair can devise no strategy, however aggressive or interventionist, and can imagine no codification, however comprehensive or strict, that will as successfully protect the Canadian parliamentary traditions that we cherish as will each member's sense of justice and fair play. Especially at this time of crisis of confidence in our parliamentary institutions, our constituents deserve and will tolerate no less.
> 
> Accordingly, after studying the precedents in these matters, I am not able on technical grounds to find that a prima facie case of privilege exists in this case.
> 
> [Translation]
> 
> I would like once again to thank the hon. member for Mount Royal for bringing this serious and important matter to the attention of the House and of Canadians.


----------



## i-rui

here is an excerpt of the Bosley decision that Irwin Cotler cited in his complaint :



> It should go without saying that a Member of Parliament needs to perform his functions effectively and that anything tending to cause confusion as to a Member’s identity creates the possibility of an impediment to the fulfilment of that Member’s functions. *Any action which impedes or tends to impede a Member in the discharge of his duties is a breach of privilege*.


there was indeed precedent set. The speaker simply chose to ignore it, and rationalized doing nothing.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> there was indeed precedent set. The speaker simply chose to ignore it, and rationalized doing nothing.


Read it carefully. The Speaker says that, given the evidence that the MP continued to perform his duties, there was no impediment to the discharge of duties. That is the only issue on which the Speaker has the power to act. That being the case, the Speaker _must _choose to do nothing, because he has no power to intervene.


----------



## i-rui

i read the decision. it's a rationalization for doing nothing. Irwin Cotler said he and his staff were swamped with calls, faxes & emails on the matter. The Speaker doesn't doubt this. The very act of he and his staff having to respond to the Conservative lie is an impediment to his role as an MP because it takes up his resources.

precedent was already set. even if the Speaker thinks he was still able to perform his duties it doesn't negate the fact that it happened and he had to deal with it, or more to the point (Once again from the Bosley reference) :



> Any action which impedes or *tends to impede* a Member in the discharge of his duties is a breach of privilege.


it doesn't have to stop him from doing his duties, it simply has to impede or "tend to impede", which undoubtably this did.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i read the decision. it's a rationalization for doing nothing. Irwin Cotler said he and his staff were swamped with calls, faxes & emails on the matter. The Speaker doesn't doubt this. The very act of he and his staff having to respond to the Conservative lie is an impediment to his role as an MP because it takes up his resources.
> 
> precedent was already set. even if the Speaker thinks he was still able to perform his duties it doesn't negate the fact that it happened and he had to deal with it, or more to the point (Once again from the Bosley reference) :
> 
> 
> 
> it doesn't have to stop him from doing his duties, it simply has to impede or "tend to impede", which undoubtably this did.


Since the MP was normally active in the House, the Speaker could not make this judgement.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Sonal said:


> ‘To allow C-38 to masquerade as a legitimate omnibus bill will bring our institutions into greater disrepute’ - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca
> 
> Elizabeth May on why C-38 is not legitimately an omnibus bill, and should not be permitted to stand. (Long, but interesting read.)


I'm happy to have had the opportunity of directly voting in this Member of Parliament for Saanich Gulf-Islands. Having May in the House almost makes up for our riding sending in Con-bot dunderhead Gary Lunn a number of times (well ... almost). I've been pleased to meet her in person and she is extremely bright, reeling off reasoned argument, facts and figures on a huge range of subjects without having to consult notes.

From her speech:


> [Democracy] does not survive without the constant application of checks on abuse of power. It needs openness. Those things done by stealth invariably breed an unhealthy loss of respect in our democratic institutions.  Sunlight is a great antiseptic. The myriad, unrelated pieces of legislation under cover of C-38, should, to respect Westminster Parliamentary democracy, be brought out of the shadows, and be tabled separately, and studied on their own merit.
> 
> To allow C-38 to masquerade as a legitimate omnibus bill will bring our institutions into greater disrepute. C-38 is widely understood in the popular media as a fraud.


And on this point, Reform MP Stephen Harper agreed with her back in 1994 when he made similar criticisms about a Liberal omnibus bill before the House. I wholeheartedly agree with the past Stephen Harper. (I don't think the current PM has sent a Terminator back to 1994 to do away with him - yet.)

Best comment from the MacLeans comment section below the article:


> It is incorrect to say this bill does not have a unifying theme. Problem they will have is that they can't say what it is out loud and in public.


----------



## bryanc

C-38 is clearly an attempt to cram a huge number of unrelated Conservative agenda items into one bill and get them passed with minimal debate. They've got a majority; why are they so afraid of debate? This is yet another example of Harper's contempt for Parliament and disdain for the people of Canada. He apparently does not think we deserve to have his dictatorial edicts examined by our representatives; he's just going to ram them through anyway.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> C-38 is clearly an attempt to cram a huge number of unrelated Conservative agenda items into one bill and get them passed with minimal debate. They've got a majority; why are they so afraid of debate? This is yet another example of Harper's contempt for Parliament and disdain for the people of Canada. He apparently does not think we deserve to have his dictatorial edicts examined by our representatives; he's just going to ram them through anyway.


This is really hyperbolic, bryanc. He's not afraid at all and it's perfectly within his rights to do so. I'd prefer they be separated into smaller packages, but at the end of the day, the Omnibus Bill has received a tremendous amount of attention. A majority government is not a dictatorship and a Bill is not an edict--you're merely unhappy that your party failed yet again to attract a significant share of seats in Parliament.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> you're merely unhappy that your party failed yet again to attract a significant share of seats in Parliament.


I don't have a party. But I'm quite used to voting for candidates that have no chance of winning or parties that won't for a government. Indeed, if I thought the NDP or Greens had any chance of forming a majority government, I'd seriously reconsider my vote (as I may have to for the next election).

What I am unhappy about is the current Conservative government treating their mandate (which was supported by substantially less than the majority of Canadian voters) as a four year dictatorship. They are abusing their power and are clearly contemptuous of the opposition and the majority of Canadians who voted for other parties.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> They are abusing their power and are clearly contemptuous of the opposition and the majority of Canadians who voted for other parties.


This is what people generally feel like when they did not elect the government they hoped for. I generally feel like this during a Liberal majority and can't imagine how sick I would feel if the NDP were to win one.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Read it carefully. The Speaker says that, given the evidence that the MP continued to perform his duties, there was no impediment to the discharge of duties. That is the only issue on which the Speaker has the power to act. That being the case, the Speaker _must _choose to do nothing, because he has no power to intervene.





Macfury said:


> Since the MP was normally active in the House, the Speaker could not make this judgement.


Exactly so.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Since the MP was normally active in the House, the Speaker could not make this judgement.


using Scheer's ruling as a precedent then the only way an MP could be seen to have their parliamentary privilege breeched would be for them to curl up in the fetal position and simply stop attempting to do their job after such attacks on their position.

it's a silly partisan judgment and shows a complete misunderstanding of "impede". impede does not equal stop, it means hinder. Any reasonable person can see how having to field calls,emails and faxes from ones constituency after a manufactured lie would hinder someone from doing their job to their full ability by tying up time & resources.

but such is our parliamentary system where a former insurance man's opinion on the rights & privileges of parliament trumps a former attorney general/minister of justice/professor of law at McGill/Harvard/Yale simply because the former is a Conservative speaker of the house and the later a liberal MP.


----------



## screature

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I'm happy to have had the opportunity of directly voting in this Member of Parliament for Saanich Gulf-Islands. Having May in the House almost makes up for our riding sending in Con-bot dunderhead Gary Lunn a number of times (well ... almost). I've been pleased to meet her in person and she is extremely bright, reeling off reasoned argument, facts and figures on a huge range of subjects without having to consult notes.
> 
> From her speech:
> 
> And on this point, Reform MP Stephen Harper agreed with her back in 1994 when he made similar criticisms about a Liberal omnibus bill before the House. I wholeheartedly agree with the past Stephen Harper. (I don't think the current PM has sent a Terminator back to 1994 to do away with him - yet.)
> 
> Best comment from the MacLeans comment section below the article:


May's performance thus far is the House has impressed me greatly. At times she comes across as a little too earnest in her pleadings but overall I think she is performing very well and is certainly very thoughtful and generally much more respectful than the majority of her peers.

I think she has a "point" in this point of order but because it is so open to interpretation as to a "unifying theme" and being in perfect order there is plenty of wiggle room for Scheer to rule against her.

Indeed ruling in favor of her could set a very problematic precedent that could potentially bring Parliament to a standstill depending on various possible scenario's in times that urgent integrated action is required on the part of a government (global financial crises for example or in the case of a major war).

Speakers like judges are not want to create precedent that binds future "judges" from making interpretations that are specific to the circumstances of a particulr case, thus they tend to rule according to much broader rules/laws.

I suspect that there will be a reason given that the environmental and fisheries portions still pertain to the budget because they have "economic impacts" for the country. Being that so much affects the economy of a nation in this complex interwoven society we live in it is not difficult to imagine how an argument can be made that the environment and fisheries affect the economy (even National Parks via tourism etc.).

So albeit an extremely broad "theme" I think that simply stating that the components of Bill C-38 no matter how small affect the economy will be the reasoning for why it is in "perfect form" and has one theme.

Personally, I think this Bill is too ambitious and goes beyond what a Budget Implementation Bill should be, but clearly the government has a packed legislative agenda and doesn't want to get bogged down with so many Bills that they can't hope to accomplish it all within their current mandate. 

I think this is their primary objective with Bill C-38, not to obscure but to expedite. For that reason it is reasonable for the Opposition to oppose this strategy because that is what they are there to do, to oppose, so anything that makes their opposition/delaying of government Bills less effective they are going to be very upset about it.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> This is what people generally feel like when they did not elect the government they hoped for.


as noted before, several traditionally conservative reporters (Ivison, Coyne) have blasted the Harper government because of how they're abusing the system with their omnibus bill.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> using Scheer's ruling as a precedent then the only way an MP could be seen to have their parliamentary privilege breeched would be for them to curl up in the fetal position and simply stop attempting to do their job after such attacks on their position.
> 
> *it's a silly partisan judgment and shows a complete misunderstanding of "impede". impede does not equal stop, it means hinder. Any reasonable person can see how having to field calls,emails and faxes from ones constituency after a manufactured lie would hinder someone from doing their job to their full ability.*
> 
> but such is our parliamentary system where a former insurance man's opinion on the rights & privileges of parliament trumps a former attorney general/minister of justice/professor of law at McGill/Harvard/Yale simply because the former is a Conservative speaker of the house and the later a liberal MP.


It is a silly partisan judgement to think that the actions of any group sending in form e-mails making phone calls sending in faxes writing letters etc. "inundating MPs" wouldn't constitute impeding one's Parliamentary privileged if that were the case.

So in fact if Scheer ruled in favor of Cotler it would have set the precedent that any government MP could claim his Parliamentary Privilege was being breached any time any group took on a campaign of writing, telephone, email or fax against a governments position.

Also anyone who knows how a political office works knows that Cotler was not fielding calls,emails and faxes, his staff were and thus why he could keep up with his Parliamentary duties.

As for your last comment how soon you forget that Miliken was a Liberal in the last Parliament who could have been seen to be partisan in ruling that a breach have privileged had occurred and thus ended up in the bring down of the government, but no one in the government or even their supporters questioned Miliken's impartiality. 

It is up to the Speaker to rule according to the rules and to precedent and logic. That people like you and bryanc try and pin more partisanship to this speaker than any other is just telling of your own partisanship and not his.

He has a full staff of clerks and other legal council to conduct research before making a ruling and it is his sworn duty to defend and protect the rights and privileges of all MPs equally. That you and bryanc choose to besmirch this Speaker because of your own personal partisanship without any cause other than he made a ruling that you disagreed with is quite frankly indicative of your own cynicism and contempt.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> using Scheer's ruling as a precedent then the only way an MP could be seen to have their parliamentary privilege breeched would be for them to curl up in the fetal position and simply stop attempting to do their job after such attacks on their position.
> 
> it's a silly partisan judgment and shows a complete misunderstanding of "impede". impede does not equal stop, it means hinder. Any reasonable person can see how having to field calls,emails and faxes from ones constituency after a manufactured lie would hinder someone from doing their job to their full ability by tying up time & resources.
> 
> but such is our parliamentary system where a former insurance man's opinion on the rights & privileges of parliament trumps a former attorney general/minister of justice/professor of law at McGill/Harvard/Yale simply because the former is a Conservative speaker of the house and the later a liberal MP.


This is a case where you want your partisan judgments to be reflected by an impartial judge. While your fetal position argument is more hyperbole, some obvious indication that the MP was prevented from carrying out his duties would be in order. However, if a campaign of calling him on the telephone would be enough to seriously impede his performance, there would be other more serious personal issues at work.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> It is a silly partisan judgement to think that the actions of any group sending in form e-mails making phone calls sending in faxes writing letters etc. "inundating MPs" wouldn't constitute impeding one's Parliamentary privileged if that were the case.
> 
> So in fact if Scheer ruled in favor of Cotler it would have set the precedent that any government MP could claim his Parliamentary Privilege was being breached any time any group took on a campaign of writing, telephone, email or fax against a governments position.


it wasn't "any group", it was an organization employed by the conservative party. and it wasn't a legitimate issue, but a manufactured lie. there is specifically a provision of misleading information regarding any matter related to breech of parliamentary privilege.



screature said:


> Also anyone who knows how a political office works knows that Cotler was not fielding calls,emails and faxes, his staff were and thus why he could keep up with his Parliamentary duties.


are you sure about that? Cotler didn't answer ONE call? Not ONE email? Didn't have to respond to any reporters? really?



screature said:


> As for your last comment how soon you forget that Miliken was a Liberal in the last Parliament who could have been seen to be partisan in ruling that a breach have privileged had occurred and thus ended up in the bring down of the government, but no one in the government or *even their supporters questioned Miliken's impartiality*.


actually i remember quite clearly several conservative supports here on ehmac dismissing the contempt of parliament ruling because it came from a Liberal speaker of the house before the last election.

But more importantly, I would point to the fact that Millikin was proven to be RIGHT. There is clear evidence that indeed the Harper government was lying about the F-35 costs. This was not even a subjective ruling, as there was/is clear evidence that they were not disclosing their internal estimates on the F-35 and omnibus bills to parliament.

If you want to look at Millikin's record on breach of privilege rulings he actually ruled in favour of an NDP and Conservative MP. Seems pretty impartial to me.



screature said:


> That you and bryanc choose to besmirch this Speaker because of your own personal partisanship without any cause other than he made a ruling that you disagreed with is quite frankly indicative of your own cynicism and contempt.


 blah blah blah 

didn't you just attack Mulcair like last week for trying to divide the country because he brought up a legitimate concern about dutch disease? 

right back at you chief.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *it wasn't "any group"*, it was an organization employed by the conservative party. and it wasn't a legitimate issue, but a manufactured lie. there is specifically a provision of misleading information on any matter related to breech of parliamentary privilege.


You clearly don't understand the notion of precedent if you think that matters..




i-rui said:


> are you sure about that? Cotler didn't answer ONE call? Not ONE email? Didn't have to respond to any reporters? really?


Maybe a few but ceratinly not enough to impede upon his parliamentary duties... speaking to reporters... :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: That's too funny.





i-rui said:


> actually i remember quite clearly several conservative supports here on ehmac dismissing the contempt of parliament ruling because it came from a Liberal speaker of the house before the last election.


Well I certainly didn't and never would.



i-rui said:


> But more importantly, I would point to the fact that Millikin was proven to be RIGHT. There is clear evidence that indeed the Harper government was lying about the F-35 costs. This was not even a subjective ruling, as there was/is clear evidence that they were not disclosing their internal estimates on the F-35 and omnibus bills to parliament.
> 
> If you want to look at Millikin's record on breach of privilege rulings he actually ruled in favour of an NDP and Conservative MP. Seems pretty impartial to me.


And so is Scheer in the Cotler case and Miliken was one of the best speakers we have ever had, I never questioned his impartiality just as I didn't Gib Parent under Chretien.



i-rui said:


> blah blah blah
> 
> didn't you just attack Mulcair like last week for trying to divide the country because he brought up a legitimate concern about dutch disease?
> 
> right back at you chief.


Uhmmm... Mulcair is not supposed to be above reproach regarding his impartiality and his partisanship and he is not the highest officer of the House of Commons.

You are mixing apples and oranges here as means of distraction as is typical of your MO.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> are you sure about that? Cotler didn't answer ONE call? Not ONE email? Didn't have to respond to any reporters? really?


So this is the precedent you want the Speaker to set? One phone call is actionable?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> So this is the precedent you want the Speaker to set? One phone call is actionable?


no, a lie manufactured to breed misinformation among a constituency commissioned by a rival party should be actionable.

I was just pointing out to screature that i found his statement that Colter didn't have to spend any time or effort reacting to the misinformation ludicrous.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> no, a lie manufactured to breed misinformation among a constituency commissioned by a rival party should be actionable.
> 
> I was just pointing out to screature that i found his statement that Colter didn't have to spend any time or effort reacting to the misinformation ludicrous.


What, specifically, did _you_ hope the Speaker would do?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> no, a lie manufactured to breed misinformation among a constituency commissioned by a rival party should be actionable.
> 
> I was just pointing out to screature that i found his statement that Colter* didn't have to spend any time or effort reacting* to the misinformation ludicrous.


Did I say this? No! I said the reality is that his staff would been the ones fielding the e-mails phone calls and faxes because I know it for a fact that is how MPs offices work. 

Sure he probably took a few call or replied to a few e-mails himself and definitely spoke to the press because that is what politicians love to do best. (If they could they would pay for the air time.)

It did not impede his ability to carry out his Parliamentary duties as he was in his committees as usual as well as his regular appearances in the House.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae will be permitted to run in his party's leadership race and he is expected to enter the race, CBC News has learned.

Rae took on the job as interim leader a year ago and the party's national executive made him promise he wouldn't use that position to help him launch a bid for the permanent leadership.

But now the executive says they will "bring clarity" to explain how he can enter the race, the CBC's Hannah Thibedeau reported."

Bob Rae to be allowed to run in Liberal leadership race - Politics - CBC News

Surprise Surprise Surprise - YouTube


----------



## Dr.G.

A good review of the positive effects of immigration in Canada.

Immigration lessons for the U.S. from around the world – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## Sonal

Canada News: Bob Rae says he won?t run for Liberal leadership - thestar.com

Well this will be interesting. Who's up next? Trudeau? Garneau? Kennedy? Someone we haven't seen before?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Canada News: Bob Rae says he won?t run for Liberal leadership - thestar.com
> 
> Well this will be interesting. Who's up next? Trudeau? Garneau? Kennedy? Someone we haven't seen before?


Translation: "At least I can be interim leader up until the convention. Gives me a few more months in power."


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Translation: "At least I can be interim leader up until the convention. Gives me a few more months in power."


"My poll results suck. Maybe they won't hate me so much the next time we have to elect a new leader."


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Canada News: Bob Rae says he won?t run for Liberal leadership - thestar.com
> 
> Well this will be interesting. Who's up next? Trudeau? Garneau? Kennedy? Someone we haven't seen before?


Very interesting. This is a true shocker ............ at least for me.

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Very interesting. This is a true shocker ............ at least for me.
> 
> Paix, mon amie.


Surprise for me too. Actually saw this last night, but didn't quite believe it until it showed up in multiple national newspapers.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Surprise for me too. Actually saw this last night, but didn't quite believe it until it showed up in multiple national newspapers.


I thought that the talk of the change in the party's rules was just a way to rubber stamp his becoming leader. Not sure who is ready/willing/able to take over now. How I miss Jack Layton these days.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> I thought that the talk of the change in the party's rules was just a way to rubber stamp his becoming leader. Not sure who is ready/willing/able to take over now. How I miss Jack Layton these days.


As things stand now, if Layton were alive I think he'd be a viable option for PM in 2015.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> As things stand now, if Layton were alive I think he'd be a viable option for PM in 2015.


Very, very true, Sonal. He would have my overt support. Such is Life. 

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Max

Happy Rae is ruling himself out. Make way for new blood. We'll see what shakes out.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Happy Rae is ruling himself out. Make way for new blood. We'll see what shakes out.


Agreed. As a friend put it, with this move Rae took the Liberal Party from 'doomed' to 'not definitely doomed."


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> As things stand now, if Layton were alive I think he'd be a viable option for PM in 2015.


If Layton were still leading the NDP, I think they'd have a very good chance of not only forming the next government, but actually wining a majority.

With Mulcair, I think they'll have a much more difficult time (not because I dislike Mulcair, but he's not Jack Layton). But, unlike the last election, during which I think many who were voting against the Conservatives supported the Liberals, the NDP are now the go-to party for those dissatisfied with the Harper government. Unless the Liberals can pull of a miraculous recovery, the NDP will enjoy the benefit of being the only credible alternative to four more years of Harper.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> If Layton were still leading the NDP, I think they'd have a very good chance of not only forming the next government, but actually wining a majority.
> 
> With Mulcair, I think they'll have a much more difficult time (not because I dislike Mulcair, but he's not Jack Layton). But, unlike the last election, during which I think many who were voting against the Conservatives supported the Liberals, the NDP are now the go-to party for those dissatisfied with the Harper government. Unless the Liberals can pull of a miraculous recovery, the NDP will enjoy the benefit of being the only credible alternative to four more years of Harper.


People dissatisfied with the Conservatives have typically supported the Liberals. The problem in the last election is that those voters were _additionally_ dissatisfied with the Liberals--and particularly that lame-duck leader Ignatief. 

I agree to an extent that currently the NDP is currently the best progressive option, but at this stage I'm not sure that they are likely to win it.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> People dissatisfied with the Conservatives have typically supported the Liberals. The problem in the last election is that those voters were _additionally_ dissatisfied with the Liberals--and particularly that lame-duck leader Ignatief.
> 
> I agree to an extent that currently the NDP is currently the best progressive option, but at this stage I'm not sure that they are likely to win it.


A Conservative voter dissatisfied with Harper is not going to run to Mulcair. bryanc is indulging in public fantasy here.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> A Conservative voter dissatisfied with Harper is not going to run to Mulcair. bryanc is indulging in public fantasy here.


And also re-writing history some, in that the last election was not some unique event in which dissatisfied Conservative voters turned to the Liberal Party.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And also re-writing history some, in that the last election was not some unique event in which dissatisfied Conservative voters turned to the Liberal Party.


Even _I_ thought Layton seemed like a nice guy and I only ever agreed with one of his policies--net neutrality. Mulcair has got the charisma of a sand flea, so any goodwill based on likeability is out the window.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> If Layton were still leading the NDP, I think they'd have a very good chance of not only forming the next government, but actually wining a majority.
> 
> With Mulcair, I think they'll have a much more difficult time (not because I dislike Mulcair, but he's not Jack Layton). But, unlike the last election, during which I think many who were voting against the Conservatives supported the Liberals, the NDP are now the go-to party for those dissatisfied with the Harper government. Unless the Liberals can pull of a miraculous recovery, the NDP will enjoy the benefit of being the only credible alternative to four more years of Harper.


I agree, bryanc. Still, it shall be interesting to see who the Liberals select as their leader. I initially liked Mulcair, but I have become disappointed with some of his views and feel that his trying to alienate the west is not a wise move. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> I have become disappointed with some of his views and feel that his trying to alienate the west is not a wise move. We shall see.


He's not trying at all, he's already accomplished it.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> He's not trying at all, he's already accomplished it.


Sad, but all too true, Sinc.


----------



## i-rui

...and Harper has alienated Quebec...


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, Quebec. Feeling alienated year after year after year. It never ends.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Ah yes, Quebec. Feeling alienated year after year after year. It never ends.


I think that happened in 1759...


----------



## i-rui

pretty ironic how conservative supporters can criticize Mulcair for "alienating" the west, yet they have no problem alienating & trivializing Quebec with their comments.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> pretty ironic how conservative supporters can criticize Mulcair for "alienating" the west, yet they have no problem alienating & trivializing Quebec with their comments.


No irony at all. Mulcair did this recently, needlessly blowing all potential goodwill. Quebec was "alienated" centuries ago. Admittedly, however, the NDP has not alienated Quebec separatists.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> ...and Harper has alienated Quebec...


Care to illustrate what yo mean by that statement?


----------



## bryanc

It's not like the NDP is going to win seats in Alberta other than Edmonton-Strathcona anyway (interesting that the best educated people in any given community are almost always the most progressive voters, eh?).

And I never suggested that Conservatives were switching to the NDP. But in the last election, people like me who were trying to *prevent* a Conservative victory may have switched from their usual parties (NDP, Green, whatever) to Liberal (I know I did). So while the NDP were gaining support in QC due to the collapse of the Bloc, they may have actually lost some support elsewhere.

At any rate, it's clear that the progressive vote is split and that the Conservatives are able to win a majority of the seats with a minority of the votes as a result, which is clearly undemocratic and a clear illustration of a fundamental flaw in our system. I felt this way when the Liberals won and I'd feel the same if the NDP or even the Greens won a majority of seats without the majority of the vote. I'm strongly in favour of the system in which voters rank candidates and the overall top ranked candidate is elected, because this would allow us to have the benefit of a multi-party system without the cost of vote splitting.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It's not like the NDP is going to win seats other than Strathcona anyway (interesting that the best educated people in any given community are almost always the most progressive voters, eh?).


Why do some "educated" people vote for the NDP? Because it represents the rah-rah version of socialism in which Canadian academe is usually steeped. It is a function of environment, not intelligence.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> It is a function of environment, not intelligence.


It does not surprise me that this is your take on it.

However, given the relative affluence of the university-educated, it's interesting that this population favours a social system in which they have to contribute more to benefit others with less, isn't it?


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> And I never suggested that Conservatives were switching to the NDP. But in the last election, people like me who were trying to *prevent* a Conservative victory may have switched from their usual parties (NDP, Green, whatever) to Liberal (I know I did). So while the NDP were gaining support in QC due to the collapse of the Bloc, they may have actually lost some support elsewhere.


Again, not a strategy unique to the last election. In fact, that's probably what has kept the Conservative party from forming a majority government up until now.

Last election, however, voters like myself who typically vote Liberal switched away after rather than vote for Ignatief--that vote was split between all the other parties. As well, voters who typically vote Liberal out of strategy simply couldn't hold their nose and vote Liberal again, and that vote went to the NDP or Green.

Given the outcomes of the last election, particularly in Ontario, I'd say a lot more people switched away from the Liberal party out of dissatisfaction with the Liberals, than to the Liberal party out of dissatisfaction with the Conservatives.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It does not surprise me that this is your take on it.
> 
> However, given the relative affluence of the university-educated, it's interesting that this population favours a social system in which they have to contribute more to benefit others with less, isn't it?


In many cases, these types choose careers that would benefit most from the largesse of a "progressive" government. They get to feel that they are supporting the poor, while waiting for their own pay-out. I have also seen in this class an overly-developed sense of hand-wringing guilt over injustices to which they have not even remotely contributed. Loosening the strings of the public purse seems to expiate this sense of guilt in them. Unfortunately, they are not satisfied until all of society contributes to this strange variant of group therapy.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I have also seen in this class an overly-developed sense of hand-wringing guilt over injustices to which they have not even remotely contributed. Loosening the strings of the public purse seems to expiate this sense of guilt in them.


I'm going to focus my reply on this point, because I think I understand (and at least partially agree) with what you're saying here. But I think you're mistaken in describing this as a response to "guilt"; it's a response to injustice from which we have benefited.

For example, I had no personal role in the way the natives were treated, abused, and disenfranchised by the europeans who colonized Canada, so I feel no guilt about those events. However those events provided me (and all other descendants of those european migrants) with social and economic advantages at the expense of disadvantaging descendants of the natives that were displaced. This is an injustice.

If we can mitigate this injustice by taxing the beneficiaries of the current social scheme (who are mostly descendants of the european migrants, but that is largely beside the point; wealthy people are, by definition, benefiting disproportionately from the status quo) and using that money to generate opportunities that benefit the poor (who are disproportionately the descendants of the natives, but again, the ancestry is largely irrelevant), that's a good thing.

The point here is to build a just society from which everyone benefits, not to assuage any misplaced guilt. But nice try at trivializing a complex problem.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I'm going to focus my reply on this point, because I think I understand (and at least partially agree) with what you're saying here. But I think you're mistaken in describing this as a response to "guilt"; it's a response to injustice from which we have benefited.
> 
> For example, I had no personal role in the way the natives were treated, abused, and disenfranchised by the europeans who colonized Canada, so I feel no guilt about those events. However those events provided me (and all other descendants of those european migrants) with social and economic advantages at the expense of disadvantaging descendants of the natives that were displaced. This is an injustice.
> 
> If we can mitigate this injustice by taxing the beneficiaries of the current social scheme (who are mostly descendants of the european migrants, but that is largely beside the point; wealthy people are, by definition, benefiting disproportionately from the status quo) and using that money to generate opportunities that benefit the poor (who are disproportionately the descendants of the natives, but again, the ancestry is largely irrelevant), that's a good thing.
> 
> The point here is to build a just society from which everyone benefits, not to assuage any misplaced guilt. But nice try at trivializing a complex problem.


Your post does little to shed more light on a complex problem. Every successful "nation" is built on the ashes of another it is the nature of human history. "To the victor go the spoils" and this holds true of even the aboriginal peoples of North America. The idea of the noble savage is a myth. They too engaged in wars among themselves and pillaging others for the benefit of their own kind.

That we are descendants of the latest victors does not mean that we are responsible for the well being of the last vanquished nation occupying this piece of the worlds geography. 

MF is indeed correct that many who feel that we have a responsibility, do feel so out of some sort of sense of "original sin", which you in fact you imply if not explicitly state by saying:



> However those events provided me (and all other descendants of those european migrants) with social and economic advantages at the expense of disadvantaging descendants of the natives that were displaced. This is an injustice.


So in as much you deny personal guilt you accept the notion of guilt by "association" and thus why it is our responsibility to right a past "injustice".

It seems despite your protestations to MF trivializing a complex problem, your post essentially says much the same thing.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> That we are descendants of the latest victors does not mean that we are responsible for the well being of the last vanquished nation occupying this piece of the worlds geography.


Between justice and genocide, there is ultimately no middle ground. The fact that there are people in our society today who are disadvantaged by the simple fact that they are descended from the "vanquished" as you put it, is an injustice in our society that I would like to see eradicated. 



> So in as much you deny personal guilt you accept the notion of guilt by "association" and thus why it is our responsibility to right a past "injustice".


Not at all. You can't right past wrongs, but you can fight against present injustice. I accept no personal responsibility for the choices or actions of others now or in the past. However I can accept that I have indirectly benefited from those actions, and I can recognize that those actions have created artificial and unfair social conditions. Regardless of the fact that these social conditions benefit me I am ethically compelled to oppose them, and I favour the use of societal resources to do so.



> It seems despite your protestations to MF trivializing a complex problem, your post essentially says much the same thing.


Sure... and black is white, night is day, etc.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I'm going to focus my reply on this point, because I think I understand (and at least partially agree) with what you're saying here. But I think you're mistaken in describing this as a response to "guilt"; it's a response to injustice from which we have benefited.
> 
> For example, I had no personal role in the way the natives were treated, abused, and disenfranchised by the europeans who colonized Canada, so I feel no guilt about those events. However those events provided me (and all other descendants of those european migrants) with social and economic advantages at the expense of disadvantaging descendants of the natives that were displaced. This is an injustice.
> 
> If we can mitigate this injustice by taxing the beneficiaries of the current social scheme (who are mostly descendants of the european migrants, but that is largely beside the point; wealthy people are, by definition, benefiting disproportionately from the status quo) and using that money to generate opportunities that benefit the poor (who are disproportionately the descendants of the natives, but again, the ancestry is largely irrelevant), that's a good thing.
> 
> The point here is to build a just society from which everyone benefits, not to assuage any misplaced guilt. But nice try at trivializing a complex problem.


Notions of "justice" are extremely subjective and the sense of injustice felt by individuals should be expiated by their own penance. A failure of progressives is that they don't recognize the subjectivity of their feelings. They are not content to work out their own system of penance--they feel an overwhelming need to make others flagellate themselves as well.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Care to illustrate what yo mean by that statement?


off the top of my head:

- the loan guarantees for the Lower Churchill River projects
- the future expansion of the House of Commons, thus reducing Quebec's political power
- the elimination of the LGR and the vindictive attempt by the Conservatives to destroy the data rather then hand over the database to the Province.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> - the future expansion of the House of Commons, thus reducing Quebec's political power


This is nothing personal. It's the result of population shifts, not a vendetta.



i-rui said:


> - the loan guarantees for the Lower Churchill River projects


Then they must fume every time the feds guarantee any development loan that does not benefit them directly.



i-rui said:


> the elimination of the LGR and the vindictive attempt by the Conservatives to destroy the data rather then hand over the database to the Province.


This issue has the populace of Quebec up in arms (so to speak)?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Between justice and genocide, there is ultimately no middle ground. The fact that there are people in our society today *who are disadvantaged by the simple fact that they are descended from the "vanquished*" as you put it, is an injustice in our society that I would like to see eradicated.


They are not disadvantaged by this "simple" fact alone at all as there are many more nuanced and complex reasons... By virtue of their heritage they also have advantages that other European stock people do not depending on where they reside. If you think that money is going to solve 



bryanc said:


> Not at all. You can't right past wrongs, but you can fight against present injustice. I accept no personal responsibility for the choices or actions of others now or in the past. However I can accept that I have indirectly benefited from those actions, and *I can recognize that those actions have created artificial and unfair social conditions. Regardless of the fact that these social conditions benefit me I am ethically compelled to oppose them, and I favour the use of societal resources to do so.*


This exactly what you said before... I know you accept no personal responsibility (I already acknowledged that). 

*You* feel "ethically compelled" to right what you see as a and wrong that stems from the "original sin" of being born of European stock and want the rest of society to pay for your point of view. 

What about those immigrants who are not of European stock, should they be compelled to right this wrong as well? Many of them benefit from the so called "unfair social conditions" you speak of as well.

And exactly what "societal resources" do you see eradicating this injustice?


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Notions of "justice" are extremely subjective...


Huh... I knew you were a libertarian, but I wouldn't have taken you for an anarchist.

Subjective or not, fostering justice is one of the primary reasons civilization exists. Fortunately, most of us are able to agree on some basic principles of justice. And if we are not going to make an effort to have a just society, we doom ourselves and our descendants to a Hobbsian war of all-against-all.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> What about those immigrants who are not of European stock, should they be compelled to right this wrong as well? Many of them benefit from the so called "unfair social conditions" you speak of as well.


Of course. As I said, one's ancestry is essentially beside the point. It adds a certain aesthetic symmetry that the descendants of the perpetrators bear the primary costs of redressing these issues, but I certainly don't think anyone living today bears any moral responsibility for what happened hundreds of years ago, so no individuals should be singled out or unduly penalized.



> And exactly what "societal resources" do you see eradicating this injustice?


Mostly educational opportunities and efforts to end systemic bigotry/racial discrimination, etc.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> off the top of my head:
> 
> - the loan guarantees for the Lower Churchill River projects
> - the future expansion of the House of Commons, thus reducing Quebec's political power
> - the elimination of the LGR and the vindictive attempt by the Conservatives to destroy the data rather then hand over the database to the Province.


- The loan guarantee is an arrangement with another province, Quebec wants their cake and to it too as usual. Any federal government would have done the same thing.

- They currently have 24% of seats with 23% of the population, they still get 3 more seats and the redistribution makes representation in the House more equitable for all provinces - this is not a move to alienate Quebec but to be fair to the other faster growing provinces.

- The elimination of the LGR was a promise made and it can't be kept if the data is kept intact, it would be egocentric of Quebec to think that this has any thing to do with them specifically but then again that wouldn't be surprising either.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Of course. As I said, one's ancestry is essentially beside the point. It adds a certain aesthetic symmetry that the descendants of the perpetrators bear the primary costs of redressing these issues, but I certainly don't think anyone living today bears any moral responsibility for what happened hundreds of years ago, so no individuals should be singled out or unduly penalized.
> 
> 
> 
> *Mostly educational opportunities and efforts to end systemic bigotry/racial discrimination, etc.*


So if their is no moral responsibility to be born by individuals then why is there one to be born by society at large including those who are first or 2nd generation Canadians?

Doesn't answer the question what resources? Money?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Huh... I knew you were a libertarian, but I wouldn't have taken you for an anarchist.
> 
> Subjective or not, fostering justice is one of the primary reasons civilization exists. *Fortunately, most of us are able to agree on some basic principles of justice*. And if we are not going to make an effort to have a just society, we doom ourselves and our descendants to a Hobbsian war of all-against-all.


I don't know what society you are living in but clearly not this one if you think there is any significant common ground on what constitutes "justice" and what is fair and appropriate. 

Perhaps among given "camps" but to say "most of us are able to agree on some basic principles of justice" is to ignore the very significant differences as to what constitutes justice in the public realm. 

Those directly involved with the law may be more likely to agree but among the citizenry, all one has to do to know that "most of us are able to agree on some basic principles of justice" is not true is to read the comments section of any online paper where a story involving a judicial decision is involved and see the great divisions that exist.


----------



## Sonal

I don't feel ethically compelled to do anything about the issues plaguing native Canadians because of some notion of history or justice or some supposed guilt for being associated with descendants of the victors.

For me it's much more simple than that. We have people in this country who are disadvantaged. At least some of that is a systemic issue. We should do what we reasonably can correct that.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Huh... I knew you were a libertarian, but I wouldn't have taken you for an anarchist.
> 
> Subjective or not, fostering justice is one of the primary reasons civilization exists. Fortunately, most of us are able to agree on some basic principles of justice. And if we are not going to make an effort to have a just society, we doom ourselves and our descendants to a Hobbsian war of all-against-all.


If notions of justice were not subjective, we would not require courts--only police officers and jails.

Fostering justice through rule of law is one of the primary purposes of society. Paying endless tithes to salve the personal mental anguishes of progressives demanding their own brand of "social justice" is not.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I don't feel ethically compelled to do anything about the issues plaguing native Canadians because of some notion of history or justice or some supposed guilt for being associated with descendants of the victors.
> 
> For me it's much more simple than that. We have people in this country who are disadvantaged. At least some of that is a systemic issue. *We should do what we reasonably can correct that.*


And I think government at various levels are attempting to do just that. But when you are dealing with people who see themselves as effectively autonomous nations it isn't exactly as easy as some people here would wish to portray it...


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> And I think government at various levels are attempting to do just that. But when you are dealing with people who see themselves as effectively autonomous nations it isn't exactly as easy as some people here would wish to portray it...


Absolutely, it's a very complex problem.

And while I have no issue with people choosing to see themselves as part of some autonomous nation, it does understandably make things difficult.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> This is nothing personal. It's the result of population shifts, not a vendetta.
> 
> 
> 
> Then they must fume every time the feds guarantee any development loan that does not benefit them directly.
> 
> 
> 
> This issue has the populace of Quebec up in arms (so to speak)?





screature said:


> - The loan guarantee is an arrangement with another province, Quebec wants their cake and to it too as usual. Any federal government would have done the same thing.
> 
> - They currently have 24% of seats with 23% of the population, they still get 3 more seats and the redistribution makes representation in the House more equitable for all provinces - this is not a move to alienate Quebec but to be fair to the other faster growing provinces.
> 
> - The elimination of the LGR was a promise made and it can't be kept if the data is kept intact, it would be egocentric of Quebec to think that this has any thing to do with them specifically but then again that wouldn't be surprising either.


it's wonderful you two are so quick to defend Harper, but that wasn't the point of my post. screature asked what possibly could Harper have done to Quebec to make them feel alienated and I quickly posted a list. Some of which i agree with (the LGR), and others not so much (the loan guarantee). The point is there are issues where Quebec will feel damaged by the Harper government's position.

So just as I will defend the validity of Mulcair's position on dutch disease as a real problem that must be addressed, as well as the environmental ramifications of the current course of oilsand development, i can still understand how Albertans may feel alienated by his position.

That doesn't mean the debate is meaningless. On the contrary, it's vital. Just because a group feels "alienated" doesn't mean the issue is out of bounds.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> So if their is no moral responsibility to be born by individuals then why is there one to be born by society at large including those who are first or 2nd generation Canadians?


This is a good question, and there has been a great deal of work in moral philosophy addressing it. I can't say that I'm an expert in this, but I think it's fair to say that there is definitely a consensus that a society has a character that is an emergent property of its people, and this character transcends individuals and their moral obligations. So even though the individuals who make up contemporary Canadian society do not bear personal moral responsibility for atrocities committed by Canadian society in the past, Canadian society as a whole still bears responsibility.

Furthermore, as Sonal correctly points out, regardless of the historical causes, the fact that systemic injustice is present in our society is reason to effect change.



> I don't know what society you are living in but clearly not this one if you think there is any significant common ground on what constitutes "justice" and what is fair and appropriate.


On the contrary, I think there is far more common ground now than 100 years ago. While there will certainly always be outliers, far more of us now agree that discriminating against people on the basis of their race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. is unacceptable. 100 years ago that would've been wildly progressive (who knew you were such a radical liberal!).

It seems likely to me that 100 years from now, our 'radically progressive' efforts to ensure that everyone gets a decent education, has access to good health care, etc. and our willingness to pay for these expensive endeavours using collective investment (i.e. taxes), will seem as obviously reasonable as legislating against racial discrimination does today.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> So even though the individuals who make up contemporary Canadian society do not bear personal moral responsibility for atrocities committed by Canadian society in the past, Canadian society as a whole still bears responsibility.


No, Canadian society as a whole does not, simply because you say it does. This is the disease of progressive thinking at work.

I also suspect that the future will see a return to more individual responsibility. The nightmare of government dependence will have ended. The people of this time will be looked upon as infantalized and ineffectual,


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> This is a good question, and there has been a great deal of work in moral philosophy addressing it. I can't say that I'm an expert in this, but I think it's fair to say that there is definitely a consensus that a society has a character that is an emergent property of its people, and this character transcends individuals and their moral obligations. *So even though the individuals who make up contemporary Canadian society do not bear personal moral responsibility for atrocities committed by Canadian society in the past, Canadian society as a whole still bears responsibility.*
> *
> Furthermore, as Sonal correctly points out, regardless of the historical causes, the fact that systemic injustice is present in our society is reason to effect change.*
> 
> 
> *On the contrary, I think there is far more common ground now than 100 years ago. While there will certainly always be outliers, far more of us now agree that discriminating against people on the basis of their race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. is unacceptable. 100 years ago that would've been wildly progressive (who knew you were such a radical liberal!).
> 
> It seems likely to me that 100 years from now, our 'radically progressive' efforts to ensure that everyone gets a decent education, has access to good health care, etc. and our willingness to pay for these expensive endeavours using collective investment (i.e. taxes), will seem as obviously reasonable as legislating against racial discrimination does today*.


I can't disagree more strongly. Do modern day Germans bear the responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi's? No, if they did why isn't the current government and the people of Germany paying restitution to modern day Jews who still suffer from persecution?... We should not bear and pay for the sins of our fathers.

Sonal's point is the *only* reason to effect change... but your implied solution of throwing money at the problem will not make it go away it is far too complex for that...

You suggest education as one of of the "societal resources" that should be brought to bear. But what kind of education? If it is the liberal arts and sciences education you espouse that should be free for all it will do little to lift native people out of poverty. Also just because you lead a horse to water doesn't mean you can make it drink... attempts at such policies have been unsuccessfully employed in the past. 

There are significant cultural differences and priorities at play here and if you think by just providing what we consider "opportunity" is going to change things I am afraid you don't fully appreciate the complexity of the issue. Additionally by the way you speak you make it seem like no efforts have been made by successive governments to address these issues when in fact there has been significant effort.

You making sweeping statements about how society *should* work but then offer no concrete examples of alternative public policy that hasn't been attempted before or a way to address the fact that native people's see themselves (and often are in law) autonomous "nations". If they truly believe in their own autonomy then they should be the ones coming forward with the solutions to their people's plight and not relying on other levels of government to present them with those solutions. Those other levels of government can of course participate and act as consultants but if we are the ones presenting solutions they will often be disregarded as colonial solutions or "white man's" ways. 

So rather than offering a simplistic and philosophical analysis of how "the social contract" should work why not take the time to look at the real world and how solutions to these problems can be achieved. I assure you that is what people at Aboriginal Affairs are working hard at every day...

This does not speak to the complexity of justice and only to a certain notion of social equality, it in no way addresses the disparity among individuals as to what constitutes justice. One person's justice is another person's slap on the wrist.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it's wonderful you two are so quick to defend Harper, but that wasn't the point of my post. screature asked what possibly could Harper have done to Quebec to make them feel alienated and I quickly posted a list. Some of which i agree with (the LGR), and others not so much (the loan guarantee). The point is there are issues where Quebec will feel damaged by the Harper government's position.
> 
> So just as I will defend the validity of Mulcair's position on dutch disease as a real problem that must be addressed, as well as the environmental ramifications of the current course of oilsand development, i can still understand how Albertans may feel alienated by his position.
> 
> That doesn't mean the debate is meaningless. On the contrary, it's vital. Just because a group feels "alienated" doesn't mean the issue is out of bounds.


The question is whether Harper's decisions alienated voters beyond their normal antipathy for the party.

Mulcair, although he is welcome to broach these issues, has moved the NDP backward in Alberta.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The question is whether Harper's decisions alienated voters beyond their normal antipathy for the party.
> 
> Mulcair, although he is welcome to broach these issues, has moved the NDP backward in Alberta.


And federally in Saskatchewan.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ontario Liberals threaten election over budget - Toronto - CBC News

Maybe Bob Rae is clearing the way for himself to run for the leadership of the NDP once again ............. and to once again be the premier of Ontario???

I have to admit that I do not fully understand the political situation in ON.


----------



## Max

Don't even try, Doc. It's a quagmire.


----------



## Dr.G.

Max said:


> Don't even try, Doc. It's a quagmire.


It is difficult to imagine another election in less than a year.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Mulcair, although he is welcome to broach these issues, has moved the NDP backward in Alberta.





screature said:


> And federally in Saskatchewan.


yes, he is moving them "backwards" from ONE seat in Alberta and NONE in Saskatchewan.

:lmao:

thats not really far of a potential drop. OTOH for any progressives in those provinces (and the rest of Canada) he has demonstrated the ability to look beyond quick cash and focus on responsible and sustainable resource development.

if he hurts a few people's feelings by speaking his mind, so be it.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> yes, he is moving them "backwards" from ONE seat in Alberta and NONE in Saskatchewan.
> 
> :lmao:
> 
> thats not really far of a potential drop. OTOH for any progressives in those provinces (and the rest of Canada) he has demonstrated the ability to look beyond quick cash and *focus on responsible and sustainable resource development.*
> *
> if he hurts a few people's feelings by speaking his mind, so be it.*


Really? Tell me his plan that wouldn't amount to another NEP that led to western separatist sentiment.

Oh it's Ok for a socialist leader and not a conservative leader I get it now... I see how it works...


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Oh it's Ok for a socialist leader and not a conservative leader I get it now... I see how it works...


what are you on about? that's not what i'm saying at all. in fact - "it's Ok for a conservative leader and not a socialist leader" is pretty much the position defended by Macfury & yourself. Somehow policy that is forced upon Quebec is good, but a debate that the west doesn't want to hear is bad.

My position is if it's a valid argument then the debate shouldn't be quashed because it *might* hurt some feelings. On both sides of the equation.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> yes, he is moving them "backwards" from ONE seat in Alberta and NONE in Saskatchewan.
> 
> :lmao:
> 
> thats not really far of a potential drop. OTOH for any progressives in those provinces (and the rest of Canada) he has demonstrated the ability to look beyond quick cash and focus on responsible and sustainable resource development.
> 
> if he hurts a few people's feelings by speaking his mind, so be it.


There was some openness to the NDP in both those provinces. Mulcair slammed the door in their faces. As long as the party continues to appeal to the Quebec separatists, the NDP may still find its fortunes strong in that province.

The crazy talk of Dutch Disease was futile. It isn't a problem in Canada, and it makes about as much sense to complain about a thriving energy sector it as it would to complain about a thriving Ontario manufacturing economy--if we had one. Huge strike-out for Mulcair.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> what are you on about? that's not what i'm saying at all. in fact - "it's Ok for a conservative leader and not a socialist leader" is pretty much the position defended by Macfury & yourself. Somehow policy that is forced upon Quebec is good, but a debate that the west doesn't want to hear is bad.
> 
> My position is if it's a valid argument then the debate shouldn't be quashed because it *might* hurt some feelings. On both sides of the equation.


What policy is Quebec being singled out on? You still have yet to indicate one.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The crazy talk of Dutch Disease was futile. It isn't a problem in Canada, and it makes about as much sense to complain about a thriving energy sector it as it would to complain about a thriving Ontario manufacturing economy--if we had one. Huge strike-out for Mulcair.


we've already been over this. several studies have verified that Canada does have dutch disease. Even the study that screature continuously posted stated that it was a mild case of it, and indeed still needed some policy changes from provincial & federal governments.

I could link 2 other studies that conclude the problem is more extreme, but really what's the point? I don't think anything will be changing certain people's minds.



screature said:


> What policy is Quebec being singled out on? You still have yet to indicate one.


I actually listed 3 policies that have alienated Quebec (the term being alienated, not necessarily "singled out"). 

I feel no reason to go around and around while you move the goalposts. scroll back a couple of pages to review again if you feel it's necessary.


----------



## Sonal

Interesting theory here:
Why Trudeau needs to fail now to succeed in the future - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau need not do anything--he's not up to the job.


----------



## Dr.G.

CBC News - Interactive: Canada's deficits and surpluses, 1963-2010

An interesting interactive site on CBC.ca re the economy and surpluses/decicits. I think that it might help to put certain things into perspective re the Canadian economy and government policies.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> I can't disagree more strongly. Do modern day Germans bear the responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi's? No


Then you agree with me. I have said very clearly that contemporary Canadians do *not* bear any moral responsibility for atrocities of the past. That would be absurd.

But it's funny that you bring up the German example, because I was just out for dinner with a bunch of German friends last night and this came up. While modern Germans don't bear any _personal_ responsibility for what the Nazi's did, German society still carries that history, and takes their responsibility to prevent that sort of thing from happening again very seriously.

It's not fair to call it 'guilt' but there is a sociological analogue that allows a healthy society to recognize its past mistakes and take action repair the damages that have been done and prevent the same sorts of mistakes from happening again.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Then you agree with me. I have said very clearly that contemporary Canadians do *not* bear any moral responsibility for atrocities of the past. That would be absurd.
> 
> But it's funny that you bring up the German example, because I was just out for dinner with a bunch of German friends last night and this came up. While modern Germans don't bear any _personal_ responsibility for what the Nazi's did, German society still carries that history, and takes their responsibility to prevent that sort of thing from happening again very seriously.
> 
> It's not fair to call it 'guilt' but there is a sociological analogue that allows a healthy society to recognize its past mistakes and take action repair the damages that have been done and prevent the same sorts of mistakes from happening again.


Sigh you clearly did say that society as whole does bear the responsibility...



> So even though the individuals who make up contemporary Canadian society do not bear personal moral responsibility for atrocities committed by Canadian society in the past, *Canadian society as a whole still bears responsibility.*


You simply continue to turn your argument in knots to maintain your high level "social contract" philosophy despite the fact that it has little to nothing to do with actual on the ground public policy when it comes to dealing with aboriginal affairs... and you say others oversimplify the issue.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> CBC News - Interactive: Canada's deficits and surpluses, 1963-2010
> 
> An interesting interactive site on CBC.ca re the economy and surpluses/decicits. I think that it might help to put certain things into perspective re the Canadian economy and government policies.


Sorry Dr.G. that chart alone is not very telling and I don't think it shows anything we don't already know... there was a global economic meltdown in 2008 the greatest since the Great Depression and deficit spending was used as economic stimulus. 

Remember both the NDP and Liberals wanted even more spending and yet they blame the current government for the deficit even though truth be told it wasn't big enough for them and if they were in power it would have been equally big if not bigger and because of their policies it would have become a structural deficit.

You will also note that despite the size of the deficit and how fast it came into being it is also declining at almost the same rate at which it was increased because the government is striving to do what they said they would do which was to make it relatively short term and to return to balanced budgets as quickly as possible.

Also when adjusted for inflation Trudeau still comes out as the King of deficits $72.76 B for Trudeau vs. $58.21 B for Harper (at their peaks).


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Sigh you clearly did say that society as whole does bear the responsibility...


You seem to be struggling with the distinction between individual and societal responsibility.

Individuals cannot, and should not bear any responsibility for actions over which they had no control, but as members of a society that has _historically_ done things that were unacceptable, our society has the responsibility to try to repair the damage (obviously efforts to correct problems have to be considered in context, such that they don't create worse problems...you can't undo the past, and two wrongs don't make a right). This is obviously true WRT the natives, but also WRT things like the environment, participation in wars, etc. The Germans are well aware of this, and I think most Canadians are as well. I don't quite understand what you're having trouble with here.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> You seem to be struggling with the distinction between individual and societal responsibility.
> 
> Individuals cannot, and should not bear any responsibility for actions over which they had no control, but as members of a society that has _historically_ done things that were unacceptable, our society has the responsibility to try to repair the damage (obviously efforts to correct problems have to be considered in context, such that they don't create worse problems...you can't undo the past, and two wrongs don't make a right). This is obviously true WRT the natives, but also WRT things like the environment, participation in wars, etc. The Germans are well aware of this, and I think most Canadians are as well. I don't quite understand what you're having trouble with here.


Regarding First Nations, there are legal treaties that the federal government has not yet made good on. This has nothing to do with moral responsibility--it is a legal responsibility.

Society as a whole can only reflect the collected responsibility of the individuals it contains. Having responsibility skip the individual level and somehow manifest itself at the societal level is magical thinking.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> *You seem to be struggling with the distinction between individual and societal responsibility.*
> 
> Individuals cannot, and should not bear any responsibility for actions over which they had no control, but as members of a society that has _historically_ done things that were unacceptable, our society has the responsibility to try to repair the damage (obviously efforts to correct problems have to be considered in context, such that they don't create worse problems...you can't undo the past, and two wrongs don't make a right). This is obviously true WRT the natives, but also WRT things like the environment, participation in wars, etc. The Germans are well aware of this, and I think most Canadians are as well. I don't quite understand what you're having trouble with here.


Spare me your condescension it really pisses me off. I asked you a pointed question:



> Do modern day Germans bear the responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi's? No, if they did why isn't the current government and the people of Germany paying restitution to modern day Jews who still suffer from persecution?


Clearly I was speaking of German society and why if they still bear responsibility are they not paying restitution to modern day Jews.

Not to mention your distinction between individual and societal responsibility is a highly debatable and questionable stance in the first place. Society is built by individuals, you like to use the term emergent characteristic as the reason for how a society can have a trait that it's individuals do not but that is merely a theory. 

If society bears the responsibility then it means that the individuals within that society must, by the very fact they make up that society, at some small level have to bear the burden of that responsibility either financial or through their actions. So I see your argument as fundamentally flawed.

We clearly are not going to agree so lets call it a day and agree to disagree... BTW it is funny how you only debate the philosophical points but when it comes to public policy, real world stuff where solutions or attempts at solutions are made you are decidedly quiet.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Regarding First Nations, there are legal treaties that the federal government has not yet made good on. This has nothing to do with moral responsibility--it is a legal responsibility.
> 
> *Society as a whole can only reflect the collected responsibility of the individuals it contains. Having responsibility skip the individual level and somehow manifest itself at the societal level is magical thinking.*


+1 Exactly.


----------



## Sonal

I question why there is a need to overload a perfectly good legal responsibility, as well as a perfectly good present-day civic responsibility to ensure our own citizens are not systemically disadvantaged, with a weighty and dubious moral/historical responsibility.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I question why there is a need to overload a perfectly good legal responsibility, as well as a perfectly good present-day civic responsibility to ensure our own citizens are not systemically disadvantaged, with a weighty and dubious moral/*historical responsibility*.


I agree with you on the moral front, but the historic portion cannot be ignored because of the fact the the responsibilities and obligations of the government and aboriginal peoples are tied in many cases to treaties and land claims that go back in history 100 years and more and also because many aboriginal peoples are tradition bound and so history is a very important component in the equation of public policy surrounding their issues.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> I asked you a pointed question:
> "Do modern day Germans bear the responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi's? No, if they did why isn't the current government and the people of Germany paying restitution to modern day Jews who still suffer from persecution?


And I answered the first part, "NO, individual Germans do not, but YES, German society does." As for paying restitution, they already have and are continuing to do so. 



> Not to mention your distinction between individual and societal responsibility is a highly debatable and questionable stance in the first place. Society is built by individuals, you like to use the term emergent characteristic as the reason for how a society can have a trait that it's individuals do not but that is merely a theory.


Like evolution, it is both a theory and a fact. We know that complex systems acquire traits that are not directly predictable from the traits of their components, but we don't fully understand how this happens. The properties of water, for example, cannot be predicted from our current understanding of the properties of hydrogen and oxygen.

It is, however, obviously true that human societies are "greater than the sum of their parts." This, perhaps, is why I value the needs of the community above the needs of the individual; although it is also clear that a balance needs to be found in which individual rights are also respected.

One of the many things that is great about Canada is our "national character." I hope that this character is strong enough to motivate a serious effort to redress the cruelties of our past. Recognizing and doing what we can to repair the damage of these sorts of things does not make us weaker; it makes us stronger.



> BTW it is funny how you only debate the philosophical points but when it comes to public policy, real world stuff where solutions or attempts at solutions are made you are decidedly quiet.


I make no claims to expertise in this realm. I have some expertise in philosophy and science, and am happy to contribute specifics in these and other areas with which I have meaningful acquaintance. Philosophical discussions like these provide the frameworks for the specifics of public policy; once we can agree on what and why we should do something, we are better equipped to establish how it is to be accomplished.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Like evolution, it is both a theory and a fact. We know that complex systems acquire traits that are not directly predictable from the traits of their components, but we don't fully understand how this happens. The properties of water, for example, cannot be predicted from our current understanding of the properties of hydrogen and oxygen.
> 
> *It is, however, obviously true that human societies are "greater than the sum of their parts."* This, perhaps, is why I value the needs of the community above the needs of the individual; although it is also clear that a balance needs to be found in which individual rights are also respected.
> 
> One of the many things that is great about Canada is our *"national character."* I hope that this character is strong enough to motivate a serious effort to redress the cruelties of our past. Recognizing and doing what we can to repair the damage of these sorts of things does not make us weaker; it makes us stronger.


I disagree as to it being obvious, in some cases societies can be less than the sum of their parts.

There is no Canadian "national character" it is a myth.



bryanc said:


> *I make no claims to expertise in this realm.* I have some expertise in philosophy and science, and am happy to contribute specifics in these and other areas with which I have meaningful acquaintance. *Philosophical discussions like these provide the frameworks* for the specifics of public policy; once we can agree on what and why we should do something, we are better equipped to establish how it is to be accomplished.


And well you shouldn't as philosophical discussions such as these do not provide the framework for public policy. Frameworks for public policy are based on much more pragmatic real world analysis... "what can be realistically be done given existing discrepancies between peoples and conflicting interests".

If we waited until "we can *agree *on what and why we should do something" nothing would ever get done. Public policy is a messy business, you make it, you see how successful it is, what the fall it is from the various stakeholders and citizens and you adjust, make new policy, analyze, adjust and do it all over again... it is a continuum and an "end" will never be reached.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It is, however, obviously true that human societies are "greater than the sum of their parts." This, perhaps, is why I value the needs of the community above the needs of the individual; although it is also clear that a balance needs to be found in which individual rights are also respected.


It is not only not "obviously true," it happens to be a value judgement based on feelings. That you see regard for the individual as an afterthought--"also respected"--is part of a "progressive" mindset. It is not a universally held value.



bryanc said:


> One of the many things that is great about Canada is our "national character." I hope that this character is strong enough to motivate a serious effort to redress the cruelties of our past. Recognizing and doing what we can to repair the damage of these sorts of things does not make us weaker; it makes us stronger.


It may make us neither stronger or weaker. Then again, it might make us weaker. Your statement is again based purely on your feelings. There is no logical progression to it.


----------



## i-rui

I didn't bring it up before because it was just an allegation, but now that there's some pretty damning evidence published it seems certain that Del Mastro's office blatantly falsified some documents to cover up his overspending :

Del Mastro lawyer wants meeting with Elections Canada - Politics - CBC News

Yikes.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> I didn't bring it up before because it was just an allegation, but now that there's some pretty damning evidence published it seems certain that Del Mastro's office blatantly falsified some documents to cover up his overspending :
> 
> Del Mastro lawyer wants meeting with Elections Canada - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Yikes.


Yikes is right. If this proves to be true, he should be gone and by Harper's hand.


----------



## Ottawaman

SINC said:


> Yikes is right. If this proves to be true, he should be gone and by Harper's hand.


Or better yet, the rule of law. Harper s not king.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> I didn't bring it up before because it was just an allegation, but now that there's some pretty damning evidence published it seems certain that Del Mastro's office blatantly falsified some documents to cover up his overspending :
> 
> Del Mastro lawyer wants meeting with Elections Canada - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Yikes.





SINC said:


> Yikes is right. If this proves to be true, he should be gone and by Harper's hand.


The whole thing seems pretty convoluted and if true just down right stupid on Del Mastro's part... 

I never liked the guy and could never understand why he was moved into the position of PS for the PM. Not that I liked Pierre Poilievre either but at least the guy could speak without stumbling all over his words.

At the very least come the fall I suspect Del Mastro will be gone as PS to the PM if not out of Caucus and out of Parliament altogether.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Yikes is right. If this proves to be true, he should be gone and by Harper's hand.


From the reports thus far, Harper's answer seems to be the track of, Tammy Wynette's "Stand by Your Man" for Del Mastrto.

Seems this case is taking a turn towards the criminal rather than just a violation of the Elections Act, as a result of alleged planned violations of the act, deceit with the circumstances and swearing that a false document (the election return) are true.

If the investigation produces substantial facts of fraud and false reporting there may be serious blow back on Our Glorious Leader.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> If the investigation produces substantial facts of fraud and false reporting there may be serious blow back on Our Glorious Leader.


How does this affect some guy in North Korea?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> How does this affect some guy in North Korea?


Yeah I don't the connection either... not to mention he is dead now.


----------



## Dr.G.

Guess I was not the only one surprised by Rae's decision.

"Former prime minister Jean Chrétien says he's among the many taken aback by interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae's decision not to seek the permanent leadership of the party as its future hangs in the balance.

"I was surprised," said Chrétien, in an interview airing Saturday on CBC Radio's The House with host Evan Solomon. 

"I thought he was to run, he has experience, he's a well-qualified person.… He felt that it was not his time. So we have to respect that decision."

When asked by Solomon whether he would endorse anyone in the coming Liberal leadership race, Chrétien noted it's not the tradition for former leaders to formally give their endorsements.

"No, unless I change my mind," said Chrétien, who led the party to three successive majority governments, in response to Solomon's question."

Chrétien weighs in on Liberal leadership questions - Politics - CBC News


----------



## BigDL

*Channel Surfing Recommended*

By all means, let's change the channel. Yes, yes let's ignore the possibility of Del Mastro facing criminal charges.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> By all means, let's change the channel. Yes, yes let's ignore the possibility of Del Mastro facing criminal charges.


No way is a PM Harper cabinet member going down ............... get real, BigDL. Deal with reality for once and see the writing on the wall. If Min. Bev Oda and Min. MacKay are still on the team, there is no one going down until the next election. We shall see.

Paix mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. I fret over the possibility of blow back that's all. Others don't seem to want to consider the possibilities or provide reassurance, as you were kind enough to provide it , thank you!


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Dr.G. I fret over the possibility of blow back that's all. Others don't seem to want to consider the possibilities or provide reassurance, as you were kind enough to provide it , thank you!


I say, let PM Harper go with the hand he was dealt with this term in office, and roll the dice in the next election. Hopefully, voters will feel as I did after the Liberals made a shambles of things and vote for another party. Then, at least the NDP might have a shot at being a minority/majority party, and will sink or swim on their own terms. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Then, at least the NDP might have a shot at being a minority/majority party, and will sink or swim on their own terms. We shall see.


Mulcair has already alienated so much of western Canada that it is doubtful the NDP can form a majority government and perhaps not even a minority.


----------



## BigDL

The current government *has* alienated all of the eastern portion of Canada that's five provinces with Ontario in questionable shape for further support for Our Glorious Leader.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Mulcair has already alienated so much of western Canada that it is doubtful the NDP can form a majority government and perhaps not even a minority.


Ontario shall make or break whomever wins the next election, be it via a minority or majority route. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

I was called by the Conservative Party the other day to provide funding for some sort of ads they wanted to run. I told them the same thing I have told them for years: "You have my vote, but barely, because you are too reckless with spending. Because you spend it faster than I make it, you get nothing from me."


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> The current government *has* alienated all of the eastern portion of Canada that's five provinces with Ontario in questionable shape for further support for Our Glorious Leader.


Still wondering how this affects a dead guy in North Korea.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Still wondering how this affects a dead guy in North Korea.


Who?


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Who?


Kim Il-sung (aka "Great Leader"), whose personality cult was then extended to his son, "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il, who gave way to his son, Kim Jong-un, who is the "Great Successor". 

Our Glorious Leader = former PM Tony Blair.

Prince Charles campaigned actively against the Iraq war and sarcastically referred to Tony Blair as "our glorious leader", it has emerged. The heir to the throne, who was privy to secret intelligence, was convinced the war was wrong and broke royal tradition by opposing it behind closed doors.


----------



## bryanc

I certainly have no trouble with people using sarcastic or demeaning names for Harper. "Our Glorious Leader" seems very apt. But I usually just call him "that smeghead in Ottawa."

Some people seem to think we should respect someone because of the office they hold, the uniform they wear, their personal wealth, or some other superficial characteristic they may have. I feel respect has to be earned. There have been several conservative PM's I've respected (Joe Clark being the most recent one), and I do have a grudging respect for how well Harper plays the political game. But until he shows some evidence of governing for the benefit of the people of Canada, rather than the benefit of the corporate lobbyists, I have very little respect for the man, and I won't resist using sarcastic, ironic or demeaning names for him if it seems appropriate.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I certainly have no trouble with people using sarcastic or demeaning names for Harper. "Our Glorious Leader" seems very apt. But I usually just call him "that smeghead in Ottawa."
> 
> Some people seem to think we should respect someone because of the office they hold, the uniform they wear, their personal wealth, or some other superficial characteristic they may have. I feel respect has to be earned. There have been several conservative PM's I've respected (Joe Clark being the most recent one), and I do have a grudging respect for how well Harper plays the political game. But until he shows some evidence of governing for the benefit of the people of Canada, rather than the benefit of the corporate lobbyists, I have very little respect for the man, and I won't resist using sarcastic, ironic or demeaning names for him if it seems appropriate.


A wonderfully emotional excuse to bring down the level of discourse.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> I certainly have no trouble with people using sarcastic or demeaning names for Harper. "Our Glorious Leader" seems very apt. But I usually just call him "that smeghead in Ottawa."
> 
> Some people seem to think we should respect someone because of the office they hold, the uniform they wear, their personal wealth, or some other superficial characteristic they may have. I feel respect has to be earned. There have been several conservative PM's I've respected (Joe Clark being the most recent one), and I do have a grudging respect for how well Harper plays the political game. But until he shows some evidence of governing for the benefit of the people of Canada, rather than the benefit of the corporate lobbyists, I have very little respect for the man, and I won't resist using sarcastic, ironic or demeaning names for him if it seems appropriate.


Using such terms does little to demean the man or the position held. It demeans the poster far more and speaks volumes in a civilized debate.


----------



## CubaMark

*It will be interesting, if we are ever able to level the playing field, to see how solar / wind / hydro stacks up to an oil industry that is not receiving billions in subsidies...*

*Canada wants to hold on to fossil fuel subsidies, leaked document reveals*



> Canada is making waves heading into the global Rio+20 Earth Summit by trying to prevent the conference from adopting commitments requiring an end to taxpayer subsidies of the fossil fuel sector.
> 
> Environment Minister Peter Kent was unable to explain why Canadian negotiators were trying to ask the conference to "consider" eliminating the subsidies instead of supporting the positions of others, such as the European Union, who are calling for a firm commitment for a full phase-out.





> the federal government could save more than $1.3 billion a year if it phases out all of the subsidies for the oil and gas industries.
> 
> Former Conservative environment minister Jim Prentice, who left politics in November 2010 to accept an executive position at the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, has urged Finance Minister Jim Flaherty in a memorandum to phase out the oil and gas subsidies, honouring a commitment made by Canada with the G20 countries. But Flaherty has protected many of the tax incentive programs for oil and gas exploration and development.


(Vancouver Sun)


----------



## CubaMark

*Tories have violated law by failing to disclose budget cut information*



> A prominent constitutional lawyer says Canada’s top bureaucrat and 64 deputy ministers who have failed to provide details about the nature of the Conservative government’s $5.2 billion in spending cuts in their departments are violating the law and should turn the information over to the parliamentary budget officer.
> 
> Joseph Magnet, a law professor at the University of Ottawa, said deputy ministers are obligated under the Parliament of Canada Act to release to Parliamentary Budget Officer (PBO) Kevin Page economic data their departments have collected. Refusing to give that information contravenes the law, which was among the reforms the Conservatives passed in its signature Federal Accountability Act.


(National Post)


----------



## BigDL

Must be Harper's promised transparency. He keeps his word. Our Glorious Leader offers complete transparency with nothing to see. No numbers, no facts to check, just a "you can trust us" and "we haven't spent any money so we can do no wrong."

Democracy we don't need no stinking democracy.

The dream of responsible government is oh so 19th century. Don't you think?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Must be Harper's promised transparency. He keeps his word. Our Glorious Leader offers complete transparency with nothing to see. No numbers, no facts to check, just a "you can trust us" and "we haven't spent any money so we can do no wrong."
> 
> Democracy we don't need no stinking democracy.
> 
> The dream of responsible government is oh so 19th century. Don't you think?


Yes, and especially in North Korea when you continue to refer to their OGL. 

It demeans such posts as I pointed out earlier.


----------



## BigDL

*Channel Surfing is the Only Reply?*

No defence for Reform-al-a-Tory transparency policies in action.

The only come back is change the channel. 

Well it starts at the top from the looks of question period:baby: and rolls out to every last supporter perhaps


----------



## bryanc

CubaMark said:


> *It will be interesting, if we are ever able to level the playing field, to see how solar / wind / hydro stacks up to an oil industry that is not receiving billions in subsidies...*
> 
> *Canada wants to hold on to fossil fuel subsidies, leaked document reveals*
> 
> (Vancouver Sun)


But the poor little oil industry might wither and die if we didn't subsidize it so heavily. It's too bad OGL is so uninterested in research and culture, or they could argue that they should be subsidized because they're doing uncontrolled experiments on our environment, or because oil has played such an important role in Alberta's culture that their devastation of the boreal forest should be considered art.


----------



## SINC

Much of OGL's research was the development of nuclear arms in North Korea.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *It will be interesting, if we are ever able to level the playing field, to see how solar / wind / hydro stacks up to an oil industry that is not receiving billions in subsidies...*


The "subsidies-- beyond anything that you and I could deduct as the cost of doing business--are quite small, relative to the size of the industry. Hydro receives subsidies larger than oil but would also do just fine. Solar / wind would die on the vine.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The "subsidies-- beyond anything that you and I could deduct as the cost of doing business--are quite small, relative to the size of the industry. Hydro receives subsidies larger than oil but would also do just fine. Solar / wind would die on the vine.


If oil and hydro would do fine without these subsidies, why are we continuing to provide them?

If solar/wind would "die on the vine" without them, that's at least a reason to consider their continuation, as there's an argument to be made that these technologies will become important aspects of the future energy economy, so investing in their development makes some sense.

But from any perspective, continuing to subsidize the obscenely profitable (not to mention mostly foreign-owned) oil industry is indefensible.


----------



## screature

*Federal appeal court quashes wheat board ruling*

Federal appeal court quashes wheat board ruling





> *The Federal Court of Appeal has ruled that Ottawa did not break the law when it stripped the Canadian Wheat Board of its monopoly over western wheat and barley sales.
> 
> The court overturned a lower court ruling that said Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz should have held a plebiscite among farmers before making the change.*
> 
> The Appeal Court's decision released Monday says there is nothing to prevent the government from changing its own law in Parliament.
> 
> "I am of the view that none of the arguments advanced by the respondents or the interveners can sustain an interpretation that would preclude the minister from introducing in Parliament legislation which would fundamentally modify the CWB's mandate or which would lead to the repeal of the CWB Act," Justice Robert Mainville wrote on behalf of the three-member panel.
> 
> "I have found no statement confirming or implying that the intention behind (a 1998 law) was to restrain the minister from proposing to Parliament legislation fundamentally modifying or repealing the CWB Act."
> 
> The ruling might be the final nail in the coffin for the six-decade-old requirement for western wheat and barley sales to be made exclusively through the wheat board.
> 
> The federal government passed a law last year to allow western producers the right to sell to whomever they choose, as producers in other regions do...


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If oil and hydro would do fine without these subsidies, why are we continuing to provide them?


You got me. I don't support it.



bryanc said:


> If solar/wind would "die on the vine" without them, that's at least a reason to consider their continuation, as there's an argument to be made that these technologies will become important aspects of the future energy economy, so investing in their development makes some sense.


Failing businesses need to be allowed to continue their downward trajectories. Let them appear on _The Dragon's Den_ and attempt to find venture capital for risky propositions.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> You got me. I don't support it.


We certainly agree on this.


> Failing businesses need to be allowed to continue their downward trajectories. Let them appear on _The Dragon's Den_ and attempt to find venture capital for risky propositions.


While I'm not really opposed to this position, I think there are exceptions, especially in the high-tech and alternative energy sectors where large up-front investments and economies of scale are important factors. I think these sorts of things can (sometimes) be good combinations of policy initiatives, good investments, and economic stimulus. But I will certainly agree that it's better if corporations take these risks independently of government support; it's just that the ideal case is often not exactly what plays out, so we sometimes have to compromise.


----------



## CubaMark

*So - how is Bill C-11 seen by the Conservative supporters in this forum?*

*Copyright bill finally clears Commons*



> Bill C-11 passed its final vote at third reading just before 11 p.m. on Monday night, by a vote of 158-135.
> 
> The bill was introduced in the Senate immediately, and is expected to speed through all stages of review there, thanks to the Conservative majority. The changes are expected to become law before the start of the summer recess.
> 
> The bill has wide implications for the production, sale, distribution and consumption of digital content, including music, video, electronic books and software. It allows consumers to make copies or backups of copyrighted work for personal use, but includes provisions for "digital locks" that would allow rights holders to restrict or prohibit copying, even for personal use.
> 
> It also prohibits the circumvention of those digital locks and sets fines for personal violations of copyright.


(CBC)


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Federal appeal court quashes wheat board ruling


I do recall someone parroting the Conservative party line that said "the Liberals put a law in place that bound a future Parliament."

The person didn't know "where to start" to argue that the Wheat Board Act wasn't able to be amended, when I said it could be amended and was indeed amended by the very Conservative Government that said it couldn't be amended.

Now low and behold my position is vindicated and who vindicated me? Only a justice of the Federal Court of the land. My! My! My!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I do recall someone parroting the Conservative party line that said "the Liberals put a law in place that bound a future Parliament."
> 
> The person didn't know "where to start" to argue that the Wheat Board Act wasn't able to be amended, when I said it could be amended and was indeed amended by the very Conservative Government that said it couldn't be amended.
> 
> Now low and behold my position is vindicated and who vindicated me? Only a justice of the Federal Court of the land. My! My! My!


OMG do you even read your own posts...? Who other than those in the Opposition, yourself included, said that the Minister Ritz broke the law... the "Conservative Government that said it couldn't be amended"???? What a joke and a complete misrepresentation of the facts... :lmao:

No in fact those who were saying Parliament had supremacy to bring forth legislation and could not be bound by previous legislation (of which I was one) were in fact vindicated not you sir....


----------



## screature

You said #174:



> The Conservative Government could of, had they chosen to do so, have amended Section 47.1 to say that (a) no consultation is required... and (b) no votes are required to introduce or delete grains...


As if some prior legislation was somehow required.

and then you said:

#178



> Federal Appeals Court justice has clearly stated the Law has not been adhered to...


Indicating the existing law had been broken and you agreed with the judgment and then you said this:

#193



> *So while Section 47.1 is in force it must be respected,* if the language of Canadian Wheat Board Act returned to the language of yesteryear the Minister or the Governor in Council could make regulations and changes. How can changes be made through Parliament.
> *So if Section 47.1 did not exist or didn’t have provisions for consultation or votes before making inclusions or exclusions of grains then the would be fine. How could they have accomplished this feat? **By way of amendment.*
> I was afraid there was a procedural arrangement that someone who works in the environs of the House of Commons would know about that we regular poster would not have access to.


Again indicating that section 47.1 had supremacy...

and then went on to state:



> The Minister is allowed to change grains *if he consults and if producers vote in favour of the proposition. Failure to do so is illegal act.*
> 
> If the Minister did not want to follow the law he could have changed the Law He could have introduced a Bill to legislate 47.1 out of existence. We have reviewed evidence that he knows how to successfully introduce legislation.
> 
> If the Minister wasn’t so lazy maybe he could see it through the process of being passed through Parliament signed by the Governor General and proclaimed in the Canada Gazette.
> 
> In conclusion we see Section 47.1 is amendable and the Section and the Canadian Wheat Board Act are indeed under the control of Parliament.
> 
> The Conservatives have played to their supporters and claim Section 47.1 "usurp the Supremacy of Parliament."
> 
> What any reasonable person should conclude is Section 47.1 is under the control of Parliament. *She/he should also conclude that Section 47.1 is not under the sole control and power of the Minister or Our Glorious Leader and this most likely frustrates them and their supporters to great lengths.*


So you are in no way vindicated in your beliefs as you believed section 47.1 was supreme and that only if certain actions occurred before the introduction of legislation could amending the Wheat Board Act be legal. 

You can bend yourself into a pretzel trying to back track and explain your way out of your position but your own words make it clear. You believed that the Minister of Ag was in contravention of the Wheat Board Act because of section 47.1 and the most recent decision of the Federal Appeals Court disagrees with you and vindicates those that disagree with you and not you.

I understand how you might have lost your place and become confused because your argument was so convoluted in the first place... it probably isn't easy to keep track of your own reasoning.


----------



## Macfury

Thanks for the tour of the _Twilight Zone_, screature!


----------



## CubaMark

[sarcasm] _*Jason Kenney, a real class act.*_ [/sarcasm]

*Kenney apologizes for slagging Alberta deputy premier*



> Federal Immigration Minister Jason Kenney has apologized for his blunt assessment of Alberta Deputy Premier Thomas Lukaszuk after calling him "a complete and utter asshole" in an email that went to Kenney's Alberta caucus colleagues and their staff.
> 
> Kenney had earlier faced repeated questions in the House of Commons about the comments and refused to say he was sorry.





> The immigration minister said he's met recently with a number of provincial officials and that if anyone should apologize to Albertans, it's the NDP, who want oilsands companies to pay the full cost of development, including the environmental effects.
> 
> "I and this government have a phenomenal positive working relationship with the government of Alberta …we have a very strong relationship," Kenney said.



(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Grow up people. This is an important issue to Canadians?


----------



## SINC

Kenney merely reflected what many of us in Alberta have thought, ever since this guy came on the scene.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Kenney merely reflected what many of us in Alberta have thought, ever since this guy came on the scene.


Now I see! It's OK for the politicos to be disrespectful of their comrades in crime but we have to pretend to respect them.tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Now I see! It's OK for the politicos to be disrespectful of their comrades in crime but we have to pretend to respect them.tptptptp


You don't need to pretend to respect them, you have to act at a level above them.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Now I see! It's OK for the politicos to be disrespectful of their comrades in crime but we have to pretend to respect them.tptptptp


This guy lives here in our city and if you knew of some of his antics, you would label him with the same term.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> You don't need to pretend to respect them, you have to act at a level above them.


Since we are starting at a level a fair bit "Lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut", that should not be too difficult.


----------



## Dr.G.

Maybe not a strict "Canadian political issue", but the taxpayer dollars come from somewhere. In 35 years teaching here at Memorial University, I don't think I have taken 18 sick days in all those years and I guess I am considered to be a public sector worker of sorts.

"A confidential government report obtained by CBC News reveals federal workers have been booking off sick in record numbers, costing Canadian taxpayers more than $1 billion a year in lost wages alone.

The internal Treasury Board report indicates federal public servants are staying home an average of 18 working days a year, or almost a full month off the job.

That is about 2½ times the average rate of absenteeism in Canadian private industry, and almost twice the level of sick leave and disability claims in the rest of the public sector.

This apparent epidemic of bureaucratic no-shows means that on an average weekday, more federal public servants are off sick than there are employees at Ford Canada and General Motors combined.

Gregory Thomas, head of the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, calls the situation "outrageous."

"We know the population isn't sick 18 days a year; it doesn't make sense.

"The government's got to start treating this money like it's their own money, and they've got to insist that if people are healthy, they come to work. And if people are sick, you've got to make sure they are sick.""

Public sector sick days cost $1 billion a year - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Max

"The government's got to start treating this money like it's their own money, and they've got to insist that if people are healthy, they come to work. And if people are sick, you've got to make sure they are sick.""

Right. On.


----------



## Dr.G.

Max said:


> "The government's got to start treating this money like it's their own money, and they've got to insist that if people are healthy, they come to work. And if people are sick, you've got to make sure they are sick.""
> 
> Right. On.


If someone is truly sick, then by all means take sick days. However, to just use them because they are there, even when you are not sick, is not right.


----------



## screature

Max said:


> "The government's got to start treating this money like it's their own money, and they've got to insist that if people are healthy, they come to work. And if people are sick, you've got to make sure they are sick.""
> 
> Right. On.


Trouble is the government doesn't have the authority to do anything about it as these sick days are part of collective bargaining arrangements with the unions. Those sick days do not require a doctor's certificate and so even the bureaucrat bosses don't have a leg to stand on in challenging the sick claims of their underlings.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Trouble is the government doesn't have the authority to do anything about it as these sick days are part of collective bargaining arrangements with the unions. Those sick days do not require a doctor's certificate and so even the bureaucrat bosses don't have a leg to stand on in challenging the sick claims of their underlings.


In some union environments, I've talked to management who employ people who are always sick like clockwork on certain days of the month. Work is not even scheduled for them because all parties understand what's happening.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Trouble is the government doesn't have the authority to do anything about it as these sick days are part of collective bargaining arrangements with the unions. Those sick days do not require a doctor's certificate and so even the bureaucrat bosses don't have a leg to stand on in challenging the sick claims of their underlings.


I am a member of a union, and we require a doctor's note for anysick leave beyond two-straight days. We are not required to go to the doctor on day three, but at some point before the illness is over we need to go to a doctor.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I am a member of a union, and we require a doctor's note for anysick leave beyond two-straight days. We are not required to go to the doctor on day three, but at some point before the illness is over we need to go to a doctor.


This was at a mine in Cape Breton, but about 20 years ago. I'm sure things have changed.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I am a member of a union, and we require a doctor's note for anysick leave beyond two-straight days. We are not required to go to the doctor on day three, but at some point before the illness is over we need to go to a doctor.


Not in the federal public service, a doctors note is only required after 1 week of being off. Also I suspect that most people are taking extended long week ends where it is only a couple of days at a time.... "metal health" days.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Not in the federal public service, a doctors note is only required after 1 week of being off. Also I suspect that most people are taking extended long week ends where it is only a couple of days at a time.... "metal health" days.


Lucky you. I am up to three weeks of sick leave now that I am in my 35th year of employment. I think I have taken about 15 days of sick leave in all of those 35 years.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Lucky you. I am up to three weeks of sick leave now that I am in my 35th year of employment. I think I have taken about 15 days of sick leave in all of those 35 years.


You're lucky you have such good health.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> This was at a mine in Cape Breton, but about 20 years ago. I'm sure things have changed.


Most likely ............. if the mine is even still there. It is a nice spot in NS, but one that does not have many jobs available for those who want to live and work there.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> You're lucky you have such good health.


Full disclosure -- for the past 8 years I have been a teleprofessor, teaching all my courses online. So, I am not on-campus to either catch a cold, or, if I am sick, to give someone my cold. I have been sick, usually each winter, with a cold or two, but since I teach from home, no one knows.

Still, working from home helps with one's mental health, in that I don't have the stress of all the pettiness that comes with a position in academia and being on-campus. However, I do understand the need for a "mental health day" in jobs that are stressful.


----------



## BigDL

I had only two paid sick days (one of which I had to file a grievance to attain) in a total 35 year career with the CNR. A career with many, many years of shift work and weekend work.

I took some sick day that may have been classified in the nature of "mental health" days or to be totally correct "marriage/family life balance" days as the only sure way to have time off was to book sick.

So again all but two of these days were lost time days (at my expense) for sickness and "mental health" and "marriage/family life balance" days. 

Seems to me that employers that bargain "sick days" are hoping to sell the sleeves off a vest to employees and workers believe they are taking time off. So they do to receive the value off the benefit.

Sick days made sense when there wasn't any extended health plans with short and long term disability benefits. 

Today I believe that workers should bargain away the sick days for employer sponsored and fully funded by the employer extended health and dental plans with decent short and long term disability payments.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Today I believe that workers should bargain away the sick days for employer sponsored and fully funded by the employer extended health and dental plans with decent short and long term disability payments." This seems reasonable.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I took some sick day that may have been classified in the nature of "mental health" days or to be totally correct "marriage/family life balance" days as the only sure way to have time off was to book sick.


I suppose there are sorts of ways of justifying a lie.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I had only two paid sick days (one of which I had to file a grievance to attain) in a total 35 year career with the CNR. A career with many, many years of shift work and weekend work.
> 
> I took some sick day that may have been classified in the nature of "mental health" days or to be totally correct "marriage/family life balance" days as the only sure way to have time off was to book sick.
> 
> So again all but two of these days were lost time days (at my expense) for sickness and "mental health" and "marriage/family life balance" days.
> 
> Seems to me that employers that bargain "sick days" are hoping to sell the sleeves off a vest to employees and workers believe they are taking time off. So they do to receive the value off the benefit.
> 
> Sick days made sense when there wasn't any extended health plans with short and long term disability benefits.
> 
> Today I believe that workers should bargain away the sick days for *employer sponsored and fully funded by the employer extended health and dental plans with decent short and long term disability payments*.





Dr.G. said:


> "Today I believe that workers should bargain away the sick days for employer sponsored and fully funded by the employer extended health and dental plans with decent short and long term disability payments." *This seems reasonable.*


PWGSC employees already get these benefits (and more) the employee just pays a small fraction... 

Why should such plans be fully funded by the employer... Isn't paying a fair wage for a fair days work already enough???


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I suppose there are sorts of ways of justifying a lie.


Sorry MF I think an occasional "mental health" day is justifiable... if you aren't mentally fit to work it is the same as not being physically fit to work... there really isn't any difference in the end...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Sorry MF I think an occasional "mental health" day is justifiable... if you aren't mentally fit to work it is the same as not being physically fit to work... there really isn't any difference in the end...


If these are offered by your employer as "mental health days" then fine. If they're taken as sick days, you can justify them any way you like, but it's still a lie--even if you believe your lie is beneficial to the employer.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> PWGSC employees already get these benefits (and more) the employee just pays a small fraction...
> 
> Why should such plans be fully funded by the employer... Isn't paying a fair wage for a fair days work already enough???


Exactly, go to work. "90 percent of life is showing up"...Woody Allen.

The saving from ceasing to pay people, not to work "paid sick days," then some of the savings of money is paid to the extended health/dental benefits, seem to me on a cursory level anyway that the Government would be up money.

Employees would have more take home pay, seems to me like a win win situation.


----------



## BigDL

*Conservative's Messaging Losing Signal*

Our Glorious Leader has tried to change the channel, surprise announcements at the end of the electoral secession and the leak of Federal worker's sick time.

You know you have lost your way when the doctors start to take you on.

Joe Oliver was interrupted by a doctor at a press conference on isotopes with reaction to the change in medical care for refugees.

Video of the press conference included with this story



CBCNews said:


> An announcement by Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver was interrupted Friday by a doctor and a med student protesting the government's cuts to a refugee health program.
> 
> Oliver was at the Toronto General Hospital Friday morning to announce federal funding for medical isotopes research.
> 
> As he started his remarks, Dr. Chris Keefer, a family medicine doctor who works at the Brampton Civic Hospital, interrupted him to take issue with the Harper government's cuts to the interim federal health program, which pays for supplementary health benefits when refugees first arrive in Canada.
> 
> The program covers medical expenses such as dental care and prescriptions most Canadians must pay for themselves or get covered by supplementary insurance coverage. Immigration Minister Jason Kenney (as well as Oliver today, when challenged by Dr. Keefer) has defended the cuts as a way to level the playing field with the health care Canadians receive from their provinces and territories.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader has tried to change the channel, surprise announcements at the end of the electoral secession and the leak of Federal worker's sick time.
> 
> You know you have lost your way when the doctors start to take you on.
> 
> Joe Oliver was interrupted by a doctor at a press conference on isotopes with reaction to the change in medical care for refugees.
> 
> Video of the press conference included with this story


What does a dead guy in North Korea have to do with any of this?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader has tried to change the channel, surprise announcements at the end of the electoral secession and the leak of Federal worker's sick time.
> 
> You know you have lost your way when the doctors start to take you on.
> 
> Joe Oliver was interrupted by a doctor at a press conference on isotopes with reaction to the change in medical care for refugees.


What sort of boob brings this topic up at a press conference involving isotopes presented by the Minister of Natural Resources? 

I looked carefully at the program. The cuts are really well reasoned and I agree with them.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader has tried to change the channel, surprise announcements at the end of the electoral secession and the leak of Federal worker's sick time.
> 
> You know you have lost your way when the doctors start to take you on.
> 
> Joe Oliver was interrupted by a doctor at a press conference on isotopes with reaction to the change in medical care for refugees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The program covers medical expenses such as dental care and prescriptions most Canadians must pay for themselves or get covered by supplementary insurance coverage. Immigration Minister Jason Kenney (as well as Oliver today, when challenged by Dr. Keefer) has defended the cuts as a way to level the playing field with the health care Canadians receive from their provinces and territories.*
> 
> 
> 
> Video of the press conference included with this story
Click to expand...

What's not to understand... why should a refugee get *better* health care coverage than the average Canadian citizen?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *What sort of boob* brings this topic up at a press conference involving isotopes presented by the Minister of Natural Resources?
> 
> I looked carefully at the program. The cuts are really well reasoned and I agree with them.


A boob in the left bra cup...


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> What's not to understand... why should a refugee get *better* health care coverage than the average Canadian citizen?


Seems to me that the Government *sponsors* refugees on behalf of all Canadians. 

Shouldn't sponsors be required to provide a platform for basic healthcare to victims who have little or nothing after fleeing from what kind of danger or persecution.



Government of Canada said:


> Refugees
> 
> Refugees and people needing protection are people in or outside Canada who fear returning to their home country. In keeping with its humanitarian tradition and international obligations, Canada provides protection to thousands of people every year.
> 
> Canada offers refugee protection to people in Canada who fear persecution or whose removal from Canada would subject them to a danger of torture, a risk to their life or a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.


The refugee system



Gov. of Canada said:


> The refugee system: Sponsoring refugees
> 
> Each year, millions of people around the world are forced to flee their homelands to escape persecution, war or severe human rights abuses. Often these people are never able to return home.
> 
> Groups and individuals can sponsor refugees from abroad who qualify to come to Canada.
> 
> Sponsors are responsible for providing financial settlement assistance (except for Joint Assistance Sponsorship cases) for refugees once they arrive in Canada. Sponsors must also provide emotional and significant settlement assistance for the duration of the sponsorship period.
> 
> Most sponsorships last for one year, but some refugees may be eligible to receive assistance from their sponsors for a longer period of time.
> 
> Learn about:
> 
> Private Sponsorship of Refugees Program
> Joint Assistance Sponsorship
> Sponsors in Quebec
> 
> Quebec has its own process for sponsoring refugees. Sponsors who live in the province of Quebec should contact the Quebec ministry that handles immigration ministère de l’Immigration et des Communautés culturelles.


The refugee system: Sponsoring refugees


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Seems to me that the Government *sponsors refugees on behalf of all Canadians*.
> 
> *Shouldn't sponsors be required to provide a platform for basic healthcare* to victims who have little or nothing after fleeing from what kind of danger or persecution.


No the Government doesn't do it on behalf of *all Canadians* they do it on behalf of the refugee.

No. The government already provides basic heath care and this will not change. If anything sponsors should be providing *supplemental* health care (which is what is being removed), to be in line with what actual citizens of Canada already have to pay for out of pocket.


----------



## BigDL

Well...


Gov of Canada said:


> *Sponsors are responsible for providing financial settlement assistance (except for Joint Assistance Sponsorship cases) for refugees once they arrive in Canada. *Sponsors must also provide emotional and significant settlement assistance for the duration of the sponsorship period. *(emphasis in bold added by me)
> *


...seems, once again, Our Glorious Leader is letting down the team. 

As the good Doctor (in the video clip) pointed out, it will cost more to the basic healthcare system in the long run, for expected complications. With no net saving and more cost over all. 

Indeed a penny wise, pound foolish, portion of fiscal constraint.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, they do things oddly in North Korea.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Well... ...seems, once again, Our Glorious Leader is letting down the team.
> 
> As the good Doctor (in the video clip) pointed out,* it will cost more to the basic healthcare system in the long run*, for expected complications. With no net saving and more cost over all.
> 
> Indeed a penny wise, pound foolish, portion of fiscal constraint.


So doctors are now accountants and economists and public policy creators... where do they find the time to do it all... maybe that is part of the reason why our publicly funded health care system is in so much trouble...

Maybe if all doctors just kept to doing what they are paid to do (with public dollars) with all the vigour and intelligence they have and spent less time on politics and trying to be accountants, economists and creators of public policy our health care system would be in better shape...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Hum :baby: !
> 
> With nothing to add...
> 
> ...*better out than in, perhaps*


I wouldn't mind.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Yeah, they do things oddly in North Korea.


Methinks this type of response will only bolster BigDL's resolve to speak and write freely. Seems you would like a little control what is said around here. Seems to contradict your views on the subject of free speech.

Why don't you live and let live. Simply carry on with all of these fascinating debates and not let ehMac deteriorate in such pettiness.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Methinks *this type of response will only bolster BigDL's resolve* to speak and write freely. Seems *you would like a little control what is said around here*. Seems to contradict your views on the subject of free speech.
> 
> *Why don't you live and let live*. Simply carry on with all of these fascinating debates and not let ehMac deteriorate *in such pettiness.*


Agreed.

SINC is merely practising his free speech... he disagrees with such pejoratives.

Why don't you...

Exactly!


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Agreed.
> 
> SINC is merely practising his free speech... he disagrees with such pejoratives.
> 
> Why don't you...
> 
> Exactly!


And this is exactly why I don't stop by here very often anymore. 

Thanks for the reminder. Back to the pettiness!


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> And this is exactly why I don't stop by here very often anymore.
> 
> Thanks for the reminder. Back to the pettiness!


Yeah becuase you don't want to hear criticism you only want to dish it out... you're right this thread isn't for you.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Yeah becuase you don't want to hear criticism you only want to dish it out... you're right this thread isn't for you.


http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-564.html#post1201123


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-564.html#post1201123


So...? 

You seem to think your post was somehow attempting to restore "order" becuase of SINC's "pettiness"... What about BigDL's pettiness and continuing to be provocative?? SINC is just retorting in kind....

You seem to want to be the judge as to who is being more petty and in so doing are just displaying your own bias/pettiness regrading which member you agree with... as am I in defending SINC... except you say "live and let live" seemingly saying to SINC he should stop jabbing BigDL all the while supporting BigDL's posts as "freedom of speech" which are jabs at SINC (and other Con supporters) and his/their beliefs...

Seems you are saying what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

It's a two way street..


----------



## SINC

I would like to make it clear that when the mayor asked us to stop with the childish name calling of politicians and members alike to clean up the thread, I took him seriously. I was guilty in the past, but no more. When others do not, it leaves little choice but to respond with pointing out the practice continuing in spite of the mayor's request. Simple as that. Some people get it, others, although few now, don't.


----------



## BigDL

So, I wonder, why the Mayor has not made any mention directly to me of the use of Our Glorious Leader?

I am relatively sure his Worship could, PM me, if he chose to do so.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> So, I wonder, why the Mayor has not made any mention directly to me of the use of Our Glorious Leader?
> 
> I am relatively sure his Worship could, PM me, if he chose to do so.


Like I noted, he asked us ALL to stop. Some get it, some don't.


----------



## BigDL

Maybe some interpret statements they way they want and then insist everyone comply with *their mindset* with no tolerance.

So if the Mayor thinks the phrase, Our Glorious Leader, is offensive to everyone then why oh why has the Mayor or the Moderators contacted me to advise not to use the term Our Glorious Leader?

Perhaps it is because for any reasonable person Our Glorious Leader would not be viewed as offensive. Then there are the few that are not reasonable. 

Nice change of channel, perhaps the real issue should be a discussion of Our Glorious Leader's policies and fortunes. The fortunes and policies of the other political party(s).


----------



## SINC

Sorry, but I have no interest in discussing the politics of North Korea.


----------



## SINC

We were also asked to treat members with respect and not launch personal insults or name calling. I have not done so, not even using emoticons, and by the way, my name is not chief.


----------



## BigDL

My last comments were not directly aimed towards Sinc. Merely about Sinc's position(s)

The reference to chief was to indicate a comment that may have been opined by the TV character Maxwell Smart.


----------



## SINC

Sorry, but I simply do not believe that at all.


----------



## Macfury

Haven't been following the thread, I see.


----------



## SINC

Nor read the terms of use about not posting insults or attacks towards another member.


----------



## ehMax

BigDL said:


> So, I wonder, why the Mayor has not made any mention directly to me of the use of Our Glorious Leader?
> 
> I am relatively sure his Worship could, PM me, if he chose to do so.


Most likely will do that, was away this weekend. 
I'll have a chance to look over this thread more closely later today as I'm unable to this morning.


----------



## bryanc

I'm quite certain that, if our Mayor chooses to ban the use of sarcastic or derogatory names for politicians, this thread will become very quiet. I'll certainly be leaving it.


----------



## SINC

That would be a shame bryanc. Your input often brings perspectives I had not considered. Dropping the derogatory names would do nothing to affect the content, just make it more civil. How can that be a bad thing?


----------



## MacDoc

Make it so.....

Would a united left really be able to topple Tories? - The Globe and Mail

please


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> That would be a shame bryanc. Your input often brings perspectives I had not considered. Dropping the derogatory names would do nothing to affect the content, just make it more civil. How can that be a bad thing?


While I can see the necessity of restraining one's invective with respect to the people who post here (and furthermore, the people who post here rarely if ever deserve it), I'll stop using derogatory names for the parasites in Ottawa when they stop deserving it.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Make it so.....
> 
> Would a united left really be able to topple Tories? - The Globe and Mail
> 
> please



I want to see this happen, too. The Liberals and NDP in a death hug as they roll together down a steep incline. Vinegar and baking soda--together they're better!

They'll share a "common weal" after being trounced.


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> Would a united left really be able to topple Tories? - The Globe and Mail


While I prefer a multi party system, our first-past-the-post electoral system is inherently polarizing and drives things towards a two-party system. So we either need to fix the electoral system (to use automatic runoff or something like that), which would be my strong preference, or accept mergers and/or coalitions as the only politically viable alternative.

It's certainly interesting to speculate; would the Liberal Democrats loose the same proportion of voters the Conservative Alliance did when they merged? I'm sure there are lots of polysci types who've examined why the Conservative Alliance lost as much as they did. I don't really know why they lost as much as they did when they merged, but I don't think it would apply to a Liberal/NDP merger. Some of the blue Liberals might shift to the Conservatives, but it's not like the Conservatives have much to offer the fiscally conservative social liberal. The Labour types that have been the NDP stalwarts for decades have exactly nowhere to go; I suppose they may stay at home and sit on their hands, but they're a very small fraction of the NDP support now. The Greens may pick up a few of the disaffected NDP supporters, but the environmental voters in Canada have always been fairly pragmatic; they'll vote ABC (Anyone But Conservative), so I think a Liberal Democratic party that at least pays lip service to environmental concerns would keep their vote.

So, all-in-all, I think a merged Liberal/NDP party would wipe the floor with the Conservatives, and furthermore, that a Liberal Democratic government would be a very significant improvement over OGL's pack of smegheads.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> While I prefer a multi party system, our first-past-the-post electoral system is inherently polarizing and drives things towards a two-party system. So we either need to fix the electoral system (to use automatic runoff or something like that), which would be my strong preference, or accept mergers and/or coalitions as the only politically viable alternative.
> 
> It's certainly interesting to speculate; would the Liberal Democrats loose the same proportion of voters the Conservative Alliance did when they merged? I'm sure there are lots of polysci types who've examined why the Conservative Alliance lost as much as they did. I don't really know why they lost as much as they did when they merged, but I don't think it would apply to a Liberal/NDP merger. Some of the blue Liberals might shift to the Conservatives, but it's not like the Conservatives have much to offer the fiscally conservative social liberal. The Labour types that have been the NDP stalwarts for decades have exactly nowhere to go; I suppose they may stay at home and sit on their hands, but they're a very small fraction of the NDP support now. The Greens may pick up a few of the disaffected NDP supporters, but the environmental voters in Canada have always been fairly pragmatic; they'll vote ABC (Anyone But Conservative), so I think a Liberal Democratic party that at least pays lip service to environmental concerns would keep their vote.
> 
> So, all-in-all, I think a merged Liberal/NDP party would wipe the floor with the Conservatives, and furthermore, that *a Liberal Democratic government would be a very significant improvement over OGL's pack of smegheads.*


How much do you know about the back benchers of ANY of the political parties? By your smegheads comment I can tell you actually know very little to next to nothing about any of them.


----------



## Macfury

screature--he's on the left, so all invective is permitted against anything right of that. Perhaps he can muster up a name or two to provide examples of good left-leaning Conservatives, demonstrating that it isn't just an either/or political judgement.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> While I can see the necessity of restraining one's invective with respect to the people who post here (and furthermore, the people who post here rarely if ever deserve it), I'll stop using derogatory names for the parasites in Ottawa when they stop deserving it.


While we do not always agree on things, I do agree entirely with this post. If everyone on this forum agreed with me on every thought, it would be a very dull place indeed, so even when I disagree with someone I do appreciate their contributions.

OTOH when the Ottawa lowlifes abandon their; "Rob from the poor and give to the rich" mantra, then is soon enough to treat them with respect. Until then if they want respect they have to earn it, just like any other individual. I do try and be fair and treat all politicians with the same degree of disrespect. <I was going to make a skunk comparison here but then realized that skunks are a valuable entity in natures world and might unfairly suffer from the comparison.>


----------



## zen.state

It really makes no difference what party or person is in power in Ottawa. The "free" world is run by banks not politicians. Those that don't understand that need to.


----------



## Macfury

Gosh, folks, this has nothing to do with respecting politicians. It's entirely about the level of discourse on this forum. If you simply can't help yourself and political invective drips from you involuntarily like diarrhea, perhaps this isn't the place for you.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Perhaps he can muster up a name or two to provide examples of good left-leaning Conservatives, demonstrating that it isn't just an either/or political judgement.


I can't think of any left-leaning Conservatives that I particularly dislike (as I said previously, I thought quite highly of Joe Clark). As for Liberals, I had no use for Chretien, and while I thought their intentions were good, the various members of the BC provincial NDP that got into office while I lived there in the 90's were such a comical bunch of amateurs and incompetents that I wasn't unhappy to see them get their respective a$$s handed to them in the election.

If we had a tradition of politicians showing integrity and striving to make Canadian society better, rather than wallowing in the public trough and catering to their corporate masters, I might have a higher opinion of the species. But we don't. Politicians may not be universally hideous people, but the 95% give the other 5% a bad name.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Gosh, folks, this has nothing to do with respecting politicians. It's entirely about the level of discourse on this forum. If you simply can't help yourself and political invective drips from you involuntarily like diarrhea, perhaps this isn't the place for you.


If using "Our Glorious Leader" as a sarcastic description of our dictatorial prime minister offends you, perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin? I think these sorts of expressions are valuable and useful ways of communicating, and furthermore, they make one's biases clear for those who may not know all the participants here so well. The fact that you, screatrue, SINC and others actually *like* the way OGL runs the country is emphasized by your rushing to defend his "good" name.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> If using "Our Glorious Leader" as a sarcastic description of our dictatorial prime minister offends you, perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin? I think these sorts of expressions are valuable and useful ways of communicating, and furthermore, they make one's biases clear for those who may not know all the participants here so well. The fact that you, screatrue, SINC and others actually *like* the way OGL runs the country is emphasized by your rushing to defend his "good" name.


That is just not so. I dislike much of what Harper and the Conservatives have done since they came to power with a majority, the copyright bill, the heavy handed omnibus bill to name a couple. I do not understand how they think some days and have had many arguments with my local MP about this subject. At times, even he shakes his head and agrees with me but is powerless to stop it. I have no use for Toews, MacKay, Kenney and more.

Still I see no need to be childish and spout names here. It solves nothing and says more about the person posting than the person being posted about. Mature adults conducting a civilized conversation should be above such acts.


----------



## i-rui

if Stephen Harper is allowed to change the name of *our* 'Government of Canada' to *his* 'Harper Government' without soliciting any public approval then it seems only fair that those who have the inkling to do so refer to him as 'Our Glorious Leader' without approval.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If using "Our Glorious Leader" as a sarcastic description of our dictatorial prime minister offends you, perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin? I think these sorts of expressions are valuable and useful ways of communicating, and furthermore, they make one's biases clear for those who may not know all the participants here so well. The fact that you, screatrue, SINC and others actually *like* the way OGL runs the country is emphasized by your rushing to defend his "good" name.


The fact that I believe most Liberal and NDP politicians are disasters does not inflame me to do the same. 



i-rui said:


> if Stephen Harper is allowed to change the name of our 'Government of Canada' to his 'Harper Government' without soliciting any public approval then it seems only fair that those who have the inkling to do so refer to him as 'Our Glorious Leader' without approval.


Anywhere else but in a privately owned forum where the host has asked that this be stopped.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> That is just not so. I dislike much of what Harper and the Conservatives have done since they came to power with a majority


Okay, fair enough. I actually do think you're fairly consistent and reasonable in your political views (even if I frequently disagree), and I do think it's fair for the mayor to step in and insist that posters here not be rude to each other (at least not chronically).



> Still I see no need to be childish and spout names here. It solves nothing and says more about the person posting than the person being posted about. Mature adults conducting a civilized conversation should be above such acts.


You are certainly free to think so; free to think less of people who use these modes of communication, and free to tell them as much, as you have... several times... we _get_ it.

Similarly, others are free to risk the loss of your esteem, and speak their minds about our political leadership, however they choose to express themselves.

Finally, the Mayor is free to set the rules of discourse on his website, and he is well aware of the consequences of going too far in either direction. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> The fact that I believe most Liberal and NDP politicians are disasters does not inflame me to do the same.


Fortunately, we're not all the same. Whatever turns yer crank.


> Anywhere else but in a privately owned forum where the host has asked that this be stopped.


My understanding was that the mayor had asked that the use of pejorative names *for posters* be stopped. Not that the use of sarcastic or pejorative names for politicians be stopped. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I can't think of any left-leaning Conservatives that I particularly dislike (as I said previously, I thought quite highly of Joe Clark). As for Liberals, I had no use for Chretien, and while I thought their intentions were good, the various members of the BC provincial NDP that got into office while I lived there in the 90's were such a comical bunch of amateurs and incompetents that I wasn't unhappy to see them get their respective a$$s handed to them in the election.
> 
> If we had a tradition of politicians showing integrity and striving to make Canadian society better, rather than wallowing in the public trough and catering to their corporate masters, I might have a higher opinion of the species. But we don't. *Politicians may not be universally hideous people, but the 95% give the other 5% a bad name.*


My previous statement stands... Like most here you probably have never met a politician in your life and yet you make such sweeping statements based on biased prejudice mostly derived from the media. The reality is this prejudice is based on a handful of politicians who make it into the national headlines because they did something stupid or controversial. For everyone of these politicians there are ten others at the federal, provincial and municipal level who work hard to serve their constituents everyday and do so with integrity and respect for the public purse.

You can disagree with them based on their public policy but that doesn't make them corrupt, "hideous people" or any other trite insult you choose to flip off.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc;1201463My understanding was that the mayor had asked that the use of pejorative names [B said:


> _for posters_[/B] be stopped. Not that the use of sarcastic or pejorative names for politicians be stopped. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.


You're wrong. He also asked that we refer to politicians and parties by their proper names.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> You're wrong. He also asked that we refer to politicians and parties by their proper names.


Must've missed it. I'll await clarification from ehMax himself on this.

As I've indicated, I'd find that level of censorship unwarranted, and stop participating if he chooses to go that far.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Like most here you probably have never met a politician in your life


You're completely mistaken. My parents in particular went through a phase of being quite politically active, and I was therefore 'gifted' with the opportunity to meet with many of the 'movers and shakers' of a couple of political parties (a slimier bunch of cut-throats one is never likely to encounter), as well as several elected representatives. I also have family that have been elected as MLAs, and while they're family, so I'm rather biased, I can certainly say that politics clearly brought out the worst in those people.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> You're completely mistaken. My parents in particular went through a phase of being quite politically active, and I was therefore 'gifted' with the opportunity to meet with many of the 'movers and shakers' of a couple of political parties (a slimier bunch of cut-throats one is never likely to encounter), as well as several elected representatives. I also have family that have been elected as MLAs, and while they're family, so I'm rather biased, I can certainly say that politics clearly brought out the worst in those people.


Fair enough . However it would still be a small sampling relative to the number of politicians out there. I have met dozens and known a few quite well, for the most part all good hard working folks who didn't get into politics for reasons other than to try and serve their constituencies.

Being that was your experience your prejudice can be understood. However your bigoted statements are not. We all carry our own personal experience and thus have our prejudices. But to label a whole group of people just because of your own experience with a sample of that group is bigotry plain and simple.


----------



## ehMax

Still haven't had a chance to read previous pages of comments, but no... I don't care about describing Prime Minister as "Glorious Leader". My concern is any comments or jabs being directed to other ehMac member(s), either single brazen comments and/or repetitive small jabs targeting a member to personally get under their skin and make ehMac unpleasant for them.


----------



## Macfury

ehMax said:


> Still haven't had a chance to read previous pages of comments, but no... I don't care about describing Prime Minister as "Glorious Leader". My concern is any comments or jabs being directed to other ehMac member(s), either single brazen comments and/or repetitive small jabs targeting a member to personally get under their skin and make ehMac unpleasant for them.


EhMax, you specifically asked that the use of such terms as "Lie-berals" or "Herr Harper" be eliminated from the politics thread. I don't care which it is, but some consistency would be appreciated.


----------



## bryanc

ehMax said:


> Still haven't had a chance to read previous pages of comments...


Something to be savoured on a lazy summer evening over a fine cabernet 



> My concern is any comments or jabs being directed to other ehMac member(s), either single brazen comments and/or repetitive small jabs targeting a member to personally get under their skin and make ehMac unpleasant for them.


I think this is a good call. While I'm not above needling someone occasionally, in this sort of forum, that's a very fine line to adjudicate, so erring on the side of caution by just avoiding it altogether is a reasonable solution.

Politicians, on the other hand, are and should be fair game. Some of the best political commentators of our time have made an art of statically labelling politicians; G.B.Trudeau is probably the best example, having gone much farther than just calling Schwarzenegger "the Gropenator," but actually portraying him as a big groping hand... the way presidents since Bush the first have appeared as satirically appropriate icons has always made the political commentary in Doonesbury _more_ sophisticated, not less.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> G.B.Trudeau is probably the best example, having gone much farther than just calling Schwarzenegger "the Gropenator," but actually portraying him as a big groping hand... the way presidents since Bush the first have appeared as satirically appropriate icons has always made the political commentary in Doonesbury _more_ sophisticated, not less.


Less sophisticated, but appealing to a more uneducated audience.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Less sophisticated, but appealing to a more uneducated audience.



Like the committees that have awarded him the Pulitzer prize... twice.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Fair enough . However it would still be a small sampling relative to the number of politicians out there.


Absolutely. And if the behaviour of the vast majority of other politicians didn't match that mould (and often far exceed it in terms of power-mongering villainy), I might try to refrain from generalizing.

But my disdain for politicians in general is not bigotry; firstly it's not an antipathy I hold for all politicians (I can easily name a dozen politicians who I admire greatly), just the majority, and secondly, it's about their behaviour (with respect to the allocation of *our* money), not their identity.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Like the committees that have awarded him the Pulitzer prize... twice.


Yes. The prize certainly means less and less as its standards have fallen.


----------



## ehMax

Macfury said:


> EhMax, you specifically asked that the use of such terms as "Lie-berals" or "Herr Harper" be eliminated from the politics thread. I don't care which it is, but some consistency would be appreciated.


Maybe I'm missing how "Glorious Leader" is offensive. Yes, I don't want offensive terms for party leaders or for political parties as well and to keep it civil, but perhaps I'm missing a connotation to "Glorious Leader".


----------



## Macfury

ehMax said:


> Maybe I'm missing how "Glorious Leader" is offensive. Yes, I don't want offensive terms for party leaders or for political parties as well and to keep it civil, but perhaps I'm missing a connotation to "Glorious Leader".


It's a term used for a military dictator. Most recently for KIm Jong Il:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






The idea is simply to rankle Conservative supporters on the board and declare they meant nothing. If the policy is simply to use the name of the person to whom you're referring, this sort of thing will stop. On the other hand, if it's allowed, expect others to use their own terms.


----------



## bryanc

Regarding G.B. Trudeau's Pulitzer Prize for Doonesbury


Macfury said:


> The prize certainly means less and less as its standards have fallen.


Since when? Doonesbury won in 1975, the first cartoon ever to win it.


----------



## i-rui

Perhaps Macfury refuses to recognize the acomplisments of *ANY* Trudeau?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Regarding G.B. Trudeau's Pulitzer Prize for Doonesbury
> 
> 
> Since when? Doonesbury won in 1975, the first cartoon ever to win it.


Since 1962 when the prize for a biography on William Randolph Hearst was overturned by Columbia University because they did not like the subject matter's politics.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Absolutely. And if the behaviour of the vast majority of other politicians didn't match that mould (and often far exceed it in terms of power-mongering villainy), I might try to refrain from generalizing.
> 
> But my disdain for politicians in general is not bigotry; firstly it's not an antipathy I hold for all politicians (I can easily name a dozen politicians who I admire greatly), *just the majority*, and secondly, it's about their behaviour (with respect to the allocation of *our* money), not their identity.


You don't know the majority nor their motivations, intentions or actions... it is just pure bigotry when you state "Politicians may not be universally hideous people, but the 95% give the other 5% a bad name." 

Much the same as when you refer to your extremely limited experience of the people of Alberta.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Perhaps Macfury refuses to recognize the acomplisments of *ANY* Trudeau?


Sure, but I go into that without prejudice, basing it on output, not lineage. Pierre was a distant relative of G.B.'s, but I have not counted any of their output as important cultural achievements--G.B, P.E., or Justin. And one need only view _Kings and Desperate Men_ to see what an actress Margaret Trudeau was...


----------



## screature

ehMax said:


> Maybe I'm missing how "Glorious Leader" is offensive. Yes, I don't want offensive terms for party leaders or for political parties as well and to keep it civil, but *perhaps I'm missing a connotation to "Glorious Leader"*.


It is basically a reference to ANY dictator whether direct of indirect... the implication is that our PM is a dictator, despot, tyrant, etc. etc...

Because the PM was duly elected on several occasions and although imperfect we still live in a democracy and the appellation of OGL is at best misplaced and I think more accurately used to be provocative and meant to get under the skin of people here who do not hate the current administration the way that some here do.

Questions to BigDL.. What is your reference in referring to the PM as OGL and how do you mean it? Is it meant to be innocuous or provocative? Simple questions...


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Regarding G.B. Trudeau's Pulitzer Prize for Doonesbury
> 
> 
> Since when? Doonesbury won in 1975, the first cartoon ever to win it.


I liked Doonesbury quite a lot in the 70s and 80s when he was good... thereafter I much preferred "Berke" Breathed and Bloom County.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> ...Questions to BigDL.. What is your reference in referring to the PM as OGL and how do you mean it? Is it meant to be innocuous or provocative? Simple questions...


This question has been asked and answered a couple if not a few times.

The phrase "Our Glorious Leader has been deemed acceptable by the Mayor, himself. 

The words in the phrase Our Glorious Leader are in of themselves neutral words and a neutral phrase. 

As the original poster and many time user of this phrase, I have garnered much negative attention from a few citizens.

This issue of what may be posted how to post in this thread generated much discussion in this thread and another particular thread and has been ongoing starting this past winter.

There were boycotts of this thread from a few citizens, even starting a new Canadian Political thread for a while.

A few citizens have been quite vocal on the use of "Our Glorious Leader" it was a way to have at me when what was really bothering a few citizens was and is another of my original posts, the words in my signature.

A few citizens can't have at me over my signature, so they tried their best to have at me with a tempest in a tea pot with the phrase "Our Glorious Leader."

I wish to thank all the citizens who defended my right to express myself. Your support is much appreciated and humbling.

So in the end Our Glorious Leader may be used by any poster who may wish to use it, feel free, anytime.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So in the end Our Glorious Leader may be used by any poster who may wish to use it, feel free, anytime.


This is simply sad wish fulfillment on your part. No decision has been made.


----------



## eMacMan

Seems to me that the new Kid's glove approach to our political masters requires a theme song.

This one seems perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vm51sR4tRY


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> This question has been asked and answered a couple if not a few times.
> 
> The phrase "Our Glorious Leader has been deemed acceptable by the Mayor, himself.
> 
> *The words in the phrase Our Glorious Leader are in of themselves neutral words and a neutral phrase. *
> 
> As the original poster and many time user of this phrase, I have garnered much negative attention from a few citizens.
> 
> This issue of what may be posted how to post in this thread generated much discussion in this thread and another particular thread and has been ongoing starting this past winter.
> 
> There were boycotts of this thread from a few citizens, even starting a new Canadian Political thread for a while.
> 
> A few citizens have been quite vocal on the use of "Our Glorious Leader" it was a way to have at me when what was really bothering a few citizens was and is another of my original posts, the words in my signature.
> 
> A few citizens can't have at me over my signature, so they tried their best to have at me with a tempest in a tea pot with the phrase "Our Glorious Leader."
> 
> I wish to thank all the citizens who defended my right to express myself. Your support is much appreciated and humbling.
> 
> So in the end Our Glorious Leader may be used by any poster who may wish to use it, feel free, anytime.


Pure hog wash and if you had the guts to express your meaning truthfully I may have had some respect for you, as it now I have none and wish to have no further engagement with you whatsoever.


----------



## mrjimmy

bryanc said:


> If using "Our Glorious Leader" as a sarcastic description of our dictatorial prime minister offends you, perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin? I think these sorts of expressions are valuable and useful ways of communicating, and furthermore, they make one's biases clear for those who may not know all the participants here so well. The fact that you, screatrue, SINC and others actually *like* the way OGL runs the country is emphasized by your rushing to defend his "good" name.


Bravo! :clap:


----------



## CubaMark

_May I suggest y'all take a big ol' chill pill?_

*Getting back to the topic at hand... *A very interesting conundrum for the federal NDP, one I hadn't considered. If they were to form a government after the next election, there is a very real possibility that their legislative agenda could be entirely undone due to the simple fact that there is no NDP Senator who could sponsor their bills:

*NDP drafting roadmap to solve party’s Senate conundrum*



> The NDP’s lead in public opinion was confirmed by a sixth national polling organization last week, when Ipsos Reid put the New Democrats three points ahead of the Conservatives, with 38% support.





> The NDP does not have a single caucus member in the Senate and, were the party to win government, it would be hard-pressed to even introduce legislation in the Red Chamber, since each bill requires a sponsor.





> as NDP MPs will admit privately, the secret of their silence is they haven’t got the foggiest clue what to do. The NDP has favoured abolishing the Senate, yet to do so requires opening the Constitution and winning the support of seven provinces and 50% of the population.


(NationalPost)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> A very interesting conundrum for the federal NDP, one I hadn't considered. If they were to form a government after the next election, there is a very real possibility that their legislative agenda could be entirely undone due to the simple fact that there is no NDP Senator who could sponsor their bills


I consider this conundrum a good thing. One less thing to worry about, even if the idea of the NDP forming a federal government is science-fiction land.


----------



## ehMax

Alright, finally got a moment to read over last 10 pages. You'll have to excuse me, it's been a long day and I'm tired. 

The ehMac guidelines for political discussion are this:

Political discussion can go down a slippery slope in a hurry to descend into petty arguments and stupid "rhetoric". To avoid that, I'd like to avoid derogatory comments about politicians and political parties. When they are said, they don't just insult the political figure or party, they insult the ehMacians who support the party and those party views. While some derogatory comments are probably worse than others, please just avoid them altogether please and thank you. Glorious leader.. who knows where it's on the "derogatory scale", let's just avoid it. 

Please don't make comments or use smileys or whatever that are design to insult other ehMac members. I'd removing a few comments from this thread that are not necessary and fall under that category. Continuing to do so may result in private warnings.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Much the same as when you refer to your extremely limited experience of the people of Alberta.


My experience of the people of Alberta is limited to the *quarter of a century* during which I lived there. Certainly, that did not give me an opportunity to get to know the majority of Albertans, but I do feel it was enough time to get to know the flavour of the place.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> My experience of the people of Alberta is limited to the *quarter of a century* during which I lived there. Certainly, that did not give me an opportunity to get to know the majority of Albertans, but I do feel it was enough time to get to know the flavour of the place.


Interesting. I have neighbours on one side that could be most kindly described as gun toting ******** and just down the street another couple that would make most NDP supporters look like conservatives. Interestingly they do manage to get along quite well.

Long and short of it is that Alberta is no more one size fits all than say TO or Newfoundland.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Interesting. I have neighbours on one side that could be most kindly described as gun toting ******** and just down the street another couple that would make most NDP supporters look like conservatives. Interestingly they do manage to get along quite well.
> 
> *Long and short of it is that Alberta is no more one size fits all than say TO or Newfoundland.*


Exactly!


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> Long and short of it is that Alberta is no more one size fits all than say TO or Newfoundland.


Of course it isn't. No one ever suggested it was. In fact, in an environment where the majority is so staunchly conservative, the progressive minority tend to be a little more politically active. But that doesn't change the fact that, outside of the university area, the NDP don't have a snowball's chance in hell of capturing a seat in Alberta, and hence that if Muclair offends a few of the more conservative Albertans with his positions, it's not costing the NDP anything politically.


----------



## ehMax

The two "Glorious Leaders" approve of getting this thread back on track. 










Jokes, but in all seriousness, politics is an intriguing topic, and we *CAN* talk about political decisions and directions that greatly affect our Canadian life, while having respect for fellow ehMacians and without reverting to insults/derogatory terms for the people in position in office. 

No one is saying you have to respect or agree with a political position, party or leader, but here on ehMac, the decorum for this thread is to have a level of decorum and ground rules. 

Thanks.


----------



## Dr.G.

ehMax said:


> The two "Glorious Leaders" approve of getting this thread back on track.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jokes, but in all seriousness, politics is an intriguing topic, and we *CAN* talk about political decisions and directions that greatly affect our Canadian life, while having respect for fellow ehMacians and without reverting to insults/derogatory terms for the people in position in office.
> 
> No one is saying you have to respect or agree with a political position, party or leader, but here on ehMac, the decorum for this thread is to have a level of decorum and ground rules.
> 
> Thanks.


Long live Big Brother .................. and his trusty side kick, PM Harper.


----------



## eMacMan

Has got me to thinking how Mark Twain's career would surely have suffered, had he had to refrain from referring to politicians as asses.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Has got me to thinking how Mark Twain's career would surely have suffered, had he had to refrain from referring to politicians as asses.


His literary career would certainly have suffered if he had mistaken posting on EhMac for a literary career.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> His literary career would certainly have suffered if he had mistaken posting on EhMac for a literary career.


"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."

"Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."


----------



## SINC

ehMax said:


> Alright, finally got a moment to read over last 10 pages. You'll have to excuse me, it's been a long day and I'm tired.
> 
> The ehMac guidelines for political discussion are this:
> 
> Political discussion can go down a slippery slope in a hurry to descend into petty arguments and stupid "rhetoric". To avoid that, I'd like to avoid derogatory comments about politicians and political parties. When they are said, they don't just insult the political figure or party, they insult the ehMacians who support the party and those party views. While some derogatory comments are probably worse than others, please just avoid them altogether please and thank you. Glorious leader.. who knows where it's on the "derogatory scale", let's just avoid it.
> 
> Please don't make comments or use smileys or whatever that are design to insult other ehMac members. I'd removing a few comments from this thread that are not necessary and fall under that category. Continuing to do so may result in private warnings.





ehMax said:


> The two "Glorious Leaders" approve of getting this thread back on track.
> 
> Jokes, but in all seriousness, politics is an intriguing topic, and we *CAN* talk about political decisions and directions that greatly affect our Canadian life, while having respect for fellow ehMacians and without reverting to insults/derogatory terms for the people in position in office.
> 
> No one is saying you have to respect or agree with a political position, party or leader, but here on ehMac, the decorum for this thread is to have a level of decorum and ground rules.
> 
> Thanks.


Thanks for finally putting that issue to rest. Now if only we ALL can all follow the guidelines and discuss things in a a civil manner without those derogatory references.


----------



## SINC

It looks to me that my MP is finally speaking his mind on spending. Good on him!

Of Orange Juice and Limos | Brent Rathgeber


----------



## CubaMark

SINC, from the piece you linked, this is the first time I'm hearing of this:



> the misadventures of CIDA Minister Bev Oda, who on a Business Trip to London, charged taxpayer for $16 orange juice, $1000 a day limousine service and *an upgrade to a hotel that allowed smoking*


So *that* was the reason for the whole kerfuffle?


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> It looks to me that my MP is finally speaking his mind on spending. Good on him!
> 
> Of Orange Juice and Limos | Brent Rathgeber


A tad slow on the draw. Still it would be very nice to hear more of the cons suggesting that fiscal restraint should start with the PM and his minions, before it is inflicted on the nations seniors. The word Conservative certainly does not seem to apply to federal spending, especially when it comes to war toys.

Maybe they should even go so far as to deep six that Platinum Pension Plan they all enjoy so immensely.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> A tad slow on the draw. Still it would be very nice to hear more of the cons suggesting that fiscal restraint should start with the PM and his minions, before it is inflicted on the nations seniors. The word Conservative certainly does not seem to apply to federal spending, especially when it comes to war toys.
> 
> Maybe they should even go so far as to deep six that Platinum Pension Plan they all enjoy so immensely.


The nation's seniors? Are they supposed to be next at the trough after the MPs?


----------



## i-rui

more bad news for Del Mastro :

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/M...that+support+reimbursement/6849748/story.html

Del Mastro donors offer to trade details on alleged reimbursement scheme for immunity | News | National Post


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> more bad news for Del Mastro :
> 
> Del Mastro donors produce cheques that support reimbursement allegations
> 
> Del Mastro donors offer to trade details on alleged reimbursement scheme for immunity | News | National Post


I saw this yesterday... At this point unless there is some surprise evidence I can't see how he isn't done and you should stick a fork in him and turn him over...

Depending on further evidence the PM should strip him of his PS position at best and punt him altogether... the latter being the preferable option IMO. The PM needs to get his cabinet in order and soon if he stands a chance of forming majority in 2015.

IMO the Harper Government is in too much of a hurry... they could easily make all their changes much more palatable to the general public if they stopped acting like this is the only majority they will ever receive.... by acting in such a roughshod way it seems their fears maybe a self fulfilling prophecy.

I have always said this administration is their own worst enemy and more and more they are proving that to be true.


----------



## MacDoc

yup - he has seriously polarized the nation and brought the left to the verge of merging which will end with a long cold winter of looking from the outside for the cons.

While there are a few positive steps he has horrid optics both at home and abroad.
Fine to change the pension timing but then he blows it by not dinging the MPs right away. He continues to play father knows best on a variety of issues against the advice of those who actually understand the issues thoroughly.

He jams an omnibus bill through that makes a mockery of parliamentary procedure.

Indeed it is and looks like "frantic"!


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> IMO the Harper Government is in too much of a hurry... they could easily make all their changes much more palatable to the general public if they stopped acting like this is the only majority they will ever receive.... by acting in such a roughshod way it seems their fears maybe a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> I have always said this administration is their own worst enemy and more and more they are proving that to be true.


We are in agreement. Sadly far too many of their bills have been written for them, as evidenced by the remarkable similarity to bills originally introduced while the Liberals were running things.

Much more attention needs to be paid to the impact of these Bills on taxpaying Canadians rather than pleasing the Banksters and other wealthy overlords.

Finance Minister Flarehty's recent total capitulation to the US's FATCA attacks on the sovereignty of the Canadian Banking System is one more example of ordinary Canadians being sacrificed to satisfy the wishes of the Masters.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> We are in agreement. Sadly far too many of their bills have been written for them, as evidenced by the remarkable similarity to bills originally introduced while the Liberals were running things.
> 
> Much more attention needs to be paid to the impact of these Bills on taxpaying Canadians rather than pleasing the Banksters and other wealthy overlords.
> 
> Finance Minister Flarehty's recent total capitulation to the US's FATCA attacks on the sovereignty of the Canadian Banking System is one more example of ordinary Canadians being sacrificed to satisfy the wishes of the Masters.


I still can't believe that I am expected to turn over 25% of my RRSP which I have worked on for 35 years to the IRS.tptptptp


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I still can't believe that I am expected to turn over 25% of my RRSP which I have worked on for 35 years to the IRS.tptptptp


Have you spoken to an accountant who is a expert in American tax law yet? If not you should it may not be as bad as you think... However this does not have anything to to with Canadian politics.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I still can't believe that I am expected to turn over 25% of my RRSP which I have worked on for 35 years to the IRS.tptptptp


Is this because you failed to file that special form with the $10,000 penalty, half of the account and or 5 years in jail should you fail to file it clause?


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Have you spoken to an accountant who is a expert in American tax law yet? If not you should it may not be as bad as you think... However this does not have anything to to with Canadian politics.


Yes, I spoke to an accountant who deals with Americans here in Canada. Actually, it is worse than what we are reading in the papers. tptptptp 

Each case is different, but since I am not hiding my assets in real off-shore bank accounts, my RRSP is open for the picking. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Is this because you failed to file that special form with the $10,000 penalty, half of the account and or 5 years in jail should you fail to file it clause?


It's a long story, eMacMan. Still, it is not a happy story. We shall see.


----------



## i-rui

bye bye Bev

Bev Oda quitting as MP and cabinet minister - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> bye bye Bev
> 
> Bev Oda quitting as MP and cabinet minister - Politics - CBC News


Sad, now she has to survive on her MP and minister's pension. :-(

Maybe PM Harper will take pity on her and name her to the Senate???


----------



## Dr.G.

On July 3, 2012, Oda announced that she would resign as a cabinet member and MP effective July 31. According to the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, she is entitled to collect an MP's pension of $52,183 per year.

That is shocking. After 8 years of dedicated service to our country, many as an esteemed member of the cabinet, she is asked to survive on that yearly income. How sad. At age 67, she will be able to get CPP and OAS, but some of that might be clawed back.

I think that PM Harper should name her to the Senate. With a yearly salary of $132,000, plus perks, she could afford the $16 a glass for OJ. As well, she could continue to take in her MP pension, so that will help make ends meet until she really cashes in on the pension of a Canadian Senator at age 75. We shall see.


----------



## i-rui

Harper has to name 4 more senators in the near future, so it wouldn't displease me if Oda got a fat juicy Senator paycheque for her years of faithful service.

NOT.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Harper has to name 4 more senators in the near future, so it wouldn't displease me if Oda got a fat juicy Senator paycheque for her years of faithful service.
> 
> NOT.


Why not???????????? She could use a bit of cash to help her maintain the lifestyle she has become accustomed to in these past few years.


----------



## MacDoc

Clean transparent government eh???? 

snip



> She berated civil servants in meetings in full view of their peers, pressured political staff to delay or obscure the mandatory publication of her ministerial expenses and regularly smoked cigarettes in her office, in violation of provincial laws, according to the official.
> 
> The Canadian Press revealed in April that Oda ditched reservations at a five-star hotel in London, England, where a conference on international immunizations was being held last June, in order to stay instead at the posh and more expensive Savoy, getting taxpayers to pick up the tab for the $1,134 price difference for three nights plus a $287 cancellation fee.


Bev Oda resigns as International Co-operation minister, Conservative MP for Durham - thestar.com


----------



## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> Clean transparent government eh????
> 
> snip
> 
> 
> 
> Bev Oda resigns as International Co-operation minister, Conservative MP for Durham - thestar.com


Leave her be, MacDoc. She is somehow going to have to figure out how to survive on her small pension, CPP and OAS. If a Senate appointment is not forthcoming soon, I fear for the worst for her survival in the lifestyle she has not become to know and love.


----------



## Dr.G.

Here's a thought. Let's promote MP Bev Oda as the new spokesperson for Tropicana OJ here in Canada. They could do a short ad with her downing a glass of OJ and then saying, "It does not cost $16 a glass ............. but it tastes so good that it could sell for this price." She would have to give up this exposure once she was named to the Canadian Senate, but at least it would tide her over until then.

Tropicana - Home


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Here's a thought. Let's promote MP Bev Oda as the new spokesperson for Tropicana OJ here in Canada. They could do a short ad with her downing a glass of OJ and then saying, "It does not cost $16 a glass ............. but it tastes so good that it could sell for this price." She would have to give up this exposure once she was named to the Canadian Senate, but at least it would tide her over until then.
> 
> Tropicana - Home


Marc, that's just crying out for a quick Photoshop job... if only I had the time...  :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Marc, that's just crying out for a quick Photoshop job... if only I had the time...  :clap:


Well, if she resigns on July 31st, and her MP pension kicks in on Aug. 1st, that is only $52,000 a year. The ad job could help tide her over.


----------



## eMacMan

So Bev Oda was International Co-operation Minister. This triggered a related thought:
Why does Canada need an International Co-operation Minister at all? 

The PM and Finance Minister seem to be doing a bang-up job of giving Canadian sovereignty away to the US without any need whatsoever for an International Co-operation Minister. Even as I post this, Finance Minister Flaherty is in effect telling all Canadians with any US ties whatsoever to assume the position, the IRS is now free to raid your bank accounts even though you owe the US Treasury Department not a single dime in taxes.


----------



## CubaMark

*Is this Harper's idea of a joke? Or an indication of in how much contempt he holds Canada's relationships with the rest of the planet? Or does he simply have too few "capable" (*ack*) people to fill the post?*

*Julian Fantino to replace Bev Oda as CIDA minister*





> Julian Fantino will replace Bev Oda as minister of international co-operation, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced Wednesday.


The story held little else of interest - just speculation about other cabinet moves - but this comment below the story seemed apt:



> *The Khazar*
> 2012/07/04 at 4:50 PM ET
> _Meet our new "face to the world" at international aid and developement conferences : an ex-para-miltary policeman and recent procurer-in-chief for armaments and munitions._


(CBC)


----------



## Dr.G.

MP Oda never looked so good now that MP Fantino is replacing her.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> So Bev Oda was International Co-operation Minister. This triggered a related thought:
> Why does Canada need an International Co-operation Minister at all?
> 
> The PM and Finance Minister seem to be doing a bang-up job of giving Canadian sovereignty away to the US without any need whatsoever for an International Co-operation Minister. Even as I post this, *Finance Minister Flaherty is in effect telling all Canadians with any US ties whatsoever to assume the position, the IRS is now free to raid your bank accounts even though you owe the US Treasury Department not a single dime in taxes.*


Nonsense. The US has the sovereign right to tax their citizens as they see fit. If you are a dual citizen with you are subject to that. There is nothing Canada can do to stop them other than through diplomacy which the Finance Minister has done and continues to do. We are not aiding them in any way.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Nonsense. The US has the sovereign right to tax their citizens as they see fit. If you are a dual citizen with you are subject to that. There is nothing Canada can do to stop them other than through diplomacy which the Finance Minister has done and continues to do. We are not aiding them in any way.


Please get it through your head that these are not taxes. Most Canadians impacted do not even owe the US any taxes. These are information forms created for Americans living abroad. The IRS claims many Canadians as American for tax purposes even though US immigration might well refuse them entry into the US. The forms must be filed on time and without error. There is no possible way for Americans living abroad to contact the IRS directly except via snail mail. The forms must be found on line and printed, even though the IRS cannot be contacted via eMail or telephone and instructions are often very vague. Failure to file or a mistake in filling out the form can mean Draconian penalties $10K per account per year not reported or 5 years in jail. These forms include the infamous FUBAR, the new 8938 and the almost unknown 8891. Literally one could be fined $10,000 for not including a $50 iTunes account balance on his FUBAR or not filing an 8938 on that same iTunes account. Yep $20,000 for failing to report a small iTunes account.

Canada can and should direct Canadian banks to refuse to give the IRS any information they are not entitled to under Canadian law. Nor should any co-operation be extended to the IRS in its attempts to collect those penalties.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Please get it through your head that these are not taxes.* Most Canadians impacted do not even owe the US any taxes. These are information forms created for Americans living abroad. The IRS claims many Canadians as American for tax purposes even though US immigration might well refuse them entry into the US. The forms must be filed on time and without error. There is no possible way for Americans living abroad to contact the IRS directly except via snail mail. The forms must be found and on line and printed, even though the IRS cannot be contacted via eMail and instructions are often very vague. Failure to file or a mistake in filling out the form can mean Draconian penalties $10K per account per year not reported or 5 years in jail. These forms include the infamous FUBAR, the new 8938 and
> the almost unknown 8891. Literally one could be fined $10,000 for not including a $50 iTunes account balance on his FUBAR or not filing an 8938 on that same iTunes account. Yep $20,000 for failing to report a small iTunes account.
> 
> Canada can and should direct Canadian banks to refuse to give the IRS any information they are not entitled to under Canadian law. Nor should any co-operation be extended to the IRS in its attempts to collect those penalties.


Please get it through your head that the US has the sovereign right to create *tax law* and filing requirements for their citizens (even dual citizens) in anyway they see fit and we can do nothing about it aside from taking diplomatic measures which we have done. We are not assisting the IRS in collecting any money can you get that through your head. Please.

And BTW it's FBAR (Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts) not FUBAR


Ottawa, June 27, 2012
2012-072



> Finance Minister Applauds U.S. Government Decision to Help Dual Citizens with Their Foreign Tax Obligations
> 
> The Honourable Jim Flaherty, Minister of Finance, today applauded the U.S. Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) decision to help dual citizens residing in Canada deal with their U.S. tax filing obligations and provide assistance for people with Canadian retirement plans.
> 
> “We told the U.S. government that the vast majority of Canadians targeted were honest, hard-working and law-abiding individuals and they listened,” said Minister Flaherty. “The only transgression of these dual citizens has been failing to file IRS paperwork that they were unaware they were required to file. I am happy the U.S. government has listened to our concerns.”
> 
> The new IRS approach will provide simplified procedures to allow taxpayers who pose low compliance risk to become compliant with their U.S. tax and FBAR (Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts) filing requirements without facing penalties or additional enforcement action.
> 
> In addition, the IRS will streamline the process for U.S. citizens and dual citizens who have contributed to Registered Retirement Savings Plans or Registered Retirement Income Funds in Canada to take advantage of the provision in the Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty allowing deferral of taxation in the U.S. of income in those accounts, if they have not already done so.
> 
> “These are positive developments. It is yet another accomplishment for Canadians and a testament to our strong working relationship with our American neighbours. I appreciate the cooperative approach of the American authorities. Nevertheless, we will continue to advocate on behalf of Canadians on such issues with the U.S. government, including the implementation of FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act),” said Minister Flaherty.





> IRS Announces Efforts to Help U. S. Citizens Overseas Including Dual Citizens and Those with Foreign Retirement Plans
> 
> 
> IR-2012-65, June 26, 2012
> 
> WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service today announced a plan to help U.S. citizens residing overseas, including dual citizens, catch up with tax filing obligations and provide assistance for people with foreign retirement plan issues.
> "Today we are announcing a series of common-sense steps to help U.S. citizens abroad get current with their tax obligations and resolve pension issues," said IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman.
> 
> 
> Shulman announced the IRS will provide a new option to help some U.S. citizens and others residing abroad who haven’t been filing tax returns and provide them a chance to catch up with their tax filing obligations if they owe little or no back taxes. The new procedure will go into effect on Sept. 1, 2012.
> 
> 
> The IRS is aware that some U.S. taxpayers living abroad have failed to timely file U.S. federal income tax returns or Reports of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBARs). Some of these taxpayers have recently become aware of their filing requirements and want to comply with the law.
> 
> 
> To help these taxpayers, the IRS offered the new procedures that will allow taxpayers who are low compliance risks to get current with their tax requirements without facing penalties or additional enforcement action. These people generally will have simple tax returns and owe $1,500 or less in tax for any of the covered years.
> 
> 
> The IRS also announced that the new procedures will allow resolution of certain issues related to certain foreign retirement plans (such as Canadian Registered Retirement Savings Plans). In some circumstances, tax treaties allow for income deferral under U.S. tax law, but only if an election is made on a timely basis. The streamlined procedures will be made available to resolve low compliance risk situations even though this election was not made on a timely basis.
> 
> 
> Taxpayers using the new procedures announced today will be required to file delinquent tax returns along with appropriate related information returns for the past three years, and to file delinquent FBARs for the past six years. Submissions from taxpayers that present higher compliance risk will be subject to a more thorough review and potentially subject to an audit, which could cover more than three tax years.
> 
> 
> The IRS also announced its offshore voluntary disclosure programs have exceeded the $5 billion mark, released new details regarding the voluntary disclosure program announced in January and closed a loophole used by some U.S. citizens. See IR-2012-64 for more.


----------



## eMacMan

It is universally referred to as FUBAR by any one having to deal with the IRS from abroad.

BTW despite all the pretty prose the IRS has made no commitment as to whether or not it will impose penalties on those who go through either the voluntary disclosure or quiet disclosure process. Nor has it made it any easier for Americans and non-Americans it arbitrarily chooses to call American to contact the IRS from abroad. It won't even mail out forms even if they are requested by snail mail. 

FWIW Logically those with little or no personal wealth will be less likely to be victimized than say those who have built up RRSP savings of half a million dollars or so.

Previous experience indicates the IRS will make the victims lives hell for several months or years and finally "settle" for 5-10% of everything they own, even though they owed not a penny in taxes.

The finance Minister should be ashamed of himself for supporting this program. It has nothing to do with catching tax cheats. In fact the true cheats such as Romney actually have gotten off fairly lightly because the money they were hiding had never been taxed in the first place nor had they been paying taxes on the interest it had earned so even the 27% penalty they paid is cheap compared to; paying their taxes in the first place and also paying taxes on interest as it accrues.

Nor does it relate to money laundering. Canada and the US already aggressively pursue suspicious bank transactions.


----------



## Macfury

The IRS may be hard to deal with. However, this new announcement makes it no easier for them to get at dual citizens. It changes nothing except streamlining the compliance process. What happens after that is up to the IRS, as it has always been.


----------



## Dr.G.

I would like to know why if I owe no US taxes, which I don't, should I have to turn over up to 25% of my RRSP, which I built up over 35 years??? Yes, if I owe US tax, I should pay US tax. However, why should my RRSP, or TFSA, etc, be subject to even more than I would have to pay if this amount was taxable income???


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I would like to know why if I owe no US taxes, which I don't, should I have to turn over up to 25% of my RRSP, which I built up over 35 years??? Yes, if I owe US tax, I should pay US tax. However, why should my RRSP, or TFSA, etc, be subject to even more than I would have to pay if this amount was taxable income???


Because the federal government is heavily in debt and is shaking down anyone it can find for the money.


----------



## Dr.G.

Margaret Wente, who writes for the Globe and Mail, recently found out she was subject to this penalty, in that she was born in the US and remained there for four days. Thus, she is a US citizen, and subject to all of this taxation.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *It is universally referred to as FUBAR by any one having to deal with the IRS from abroad.*
> 
> BTW despite all the pretty prose the IRS has made no commitment as to whether or not it will impose penalties on those who go through either the voluntary disclosure or quiet disclosure process. Nor has it made it any easier for Americans and non-Americans *it arbitrarily chooses to call American to contact the IRS from abroad.* It won't even mail out forms even if they are requested by snail mail.
> 
> FWIW Logically those with little or no personal wealth will be less likely to be victimized than say those who have built up RRSP savings of half a million dollars or so.
> 
> *Previous experience indicates the IRS will make the victims lives hell for several months or years and finally "settle" for 5-10% of everything they own, even though they owed not a penny in taxes.*
> 
> *The finance Minister should be ashamed of himself for supporting this program.* It has nothing to do with catching tax cheats. In fact the true cheats such as Romney actually have gotten off fairly lightly because the money they were hiding had never been taxed in the first place nor had they been paying taxes on the interest it had earned so even the 27% penalty they paid is cheap compared to; paying their taxes in the first place and also paying taxes on interest as it accrues.
> 
> Nor does it relate to money laundering. Canada and the US already aggressively pursue suspicious bank transactions.


It is not you are wrong.

Where are you getting this from either you are or aren't a US citizen?

So are you as dual citizen then or a US citizen living and working in Canada?

Once again the Finance Minister is not supporting the IRS's program, he has no authority to do anything other than via diplomatic channels which he has done.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the matters at hand.

You seem to want to lay the actions of the US IRS at the feet of the Canadian Government which is entirely misguided and just plain incorrect and wrong.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I would like to know why if I owe no US taxes, which I don't, should I have to turn over up to 25% of my RRSP, which I built up over 35 years??? Yes, if I owe US tax, I should pay US tax. However, why should my RRSP, or TFSA, etc, be subject to even more than I would have to pay if this amount was taxable income???


Have you read the latest release from the IRS?

However, even if the latest news doesn't change your situation it is NOT the fault of the Canadian government. Cut and dry.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Margaret Wente, who writes for the Globe and Mail, recently found out she was subject to this penalty, in that she was born in the US and remained there for four days. Thus, she is a US citizen, and subject to all of this taxation.


What the US is doing is clearly a cash grab but the Canadian government is *not* complicit in this and has made several protestations on the behalf of innocent people caught up in this scheme by the IRS. There is only so much the Government of Canada can do to try and affect IRS policy and by the latest news clearly their appeals have been making some headway. Perhaps not enough to make a difference to your situation but you should check it out...

Remember ignorance of the law is no defence, so while the IRS may not have been as forth coming in providing the filing requirements for their citizens living abroad as they should have been ultimately the onus lies with the the citizen to make sure they are in compliance with the law.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> What the US is doing is clearly a cash grab but the Canadian government is *not* complicit in this and has made several protestations on the behalf of innocent people caught up in this scheme by the IRS. There is only so much the Government of Canada can do to try and affect IRS policy and by the latest news clearly their appeals have been making some headway. Perhaps not enough to make a difference to your situation but you should check it out...
> 
> Remember ignorance of the law is no defence, so while the IRS may not have been as forth coming in providing the filing requirements for their citizens living abroad as they should have been ultimately the onus lies with the the citizen to make sure they are in compliance with the law.


It will be interesting if the Canadian government allows the IRS to require Canadian banks from going through their records and rooting out American citizens and turning over these names to the IRS. We shall see.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> What the US is doing is clearly a cash grab but the Canadian government is *not* complicit in this and has made several protestations on the behalf of innocent people caught up in this scheme by the IRS. There is only so much the Government of Canada can do to try and affect IRS policy and by the latest news clearly their appeals have been making some headway. Perhaps not enough to make a difference to your situation but you should check it out...
> 
> Remember ignorance of the law is no defence, so while the IRS may not have been as forth coming in providing the filing requirements for their citizens living abroad as they should have been ultimately the onus lies with the the citizen to make sure they are in compliance with the law.



It is one thing to say ignorance of the law is no excuse, quite another when the entity in question makes it almost impossible to find out what the law is until after the fact.

Personally I am not particularly impacted other than the insanity of having to file the forms in the first place. I am quite capable of figuring out this is just plain wrong and demanding that the Government of Canada should refuse to participate. At the very least the Government of Canada should make it quite clear that it does not support this insanity, that banks will not be required to file W9s or 1099s with the IRS no matter how strong a customers ties to the US are. Banks should also face severe penalties for giving any customer data to the IRS without a Canadian Court Order. Banks do file T4s and this information is available to the IRS when they can make a case for it. This is all the IRS needs to track down clear cases of tax fraud. Had they needed more believe me they would have asked for it when the tax treaty was negotiated.

Do download form 8938, then see if you can track down a plain English translation. It will be an eye opener. Remember miss an account or do it wrong and you're out 10G$ for each account missed or muffed and you are subject to arrest should you cross the US border, even if you don't owe the IRS a dime in taxes. 

The good news here is that when the Harper gang signs on to the NA Union, in all likelihood all Canadians will be subject to this form insanity, at the hands of the IRS. It is even possible they will have to back file all these forms for several years with severe penalties for having failed to anticipate the new rules. 

Flaherty's total capitulation is a mighty clear indication that this government is unwilling to stand up for Canadian Sovereignty.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> The good news here is that when the Harper gang signs on to the NA Union, in all likelihood all Canadians will be subject to this form insanity, at the hands of the IRS. It is even possible they will have to back file all these forms for several years with severe penalties for having failed to anticipate the new rules. .


This stuff is really out there.


----------



## Dr.G.

"In addition, retroactive relief for failure to timely elect income deferral on certain retirement and savings plans where deferral is permitted by relevant treaty will be available through this process. The proper deferral elections with respect to such arrangements must be made with the submission." I would love to know if this means RRSPs are off-limits, or are fair game for the IRS???


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> "In addition, retroactive relief for failure to timely elect income deferral on certain retirement and savings plans where deferral is permitted by relevant treaty will be available through this process. The proper deferral elections with respect to such arrangements must be made with the submission." I would love to know if this means RRSPs are off-limits, or are fair game for the IRS???


You need to talk to an accountant, sir.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> You need to talk to an accountant, sir.


I agree, and I am getting one, but info is not really forthcoming from the US government.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> You need to talk to an accountant, sir.


$1000-$5000 is the going rate for Americans living out of country, but that goes up somewhat if you actually owe any taxes. Even at that they do not take the hit if they give bad advice. A big problem as the IRS won't talk to them either.


----------



## CubaMark

*Um... wow.*

*Civil servants share $6B 'severance' without losing jobs*



> The Harper government is in the process of handing out a jaw-dropping $6 billion in special "severance" cheques to hundreds of thousands of federal workers who aren't losing their jobs or even changing desks.





> The payouts are part of the Harper government's move to scrap a long-standing public service perk that gives federal workers severance pay even when they quit or retire.
> 
> The government has agreed to compensate public servants for all of the severance they have accumulated to date at the rate of one week's wages for each year of employment.





> hile the total payout to federal workers is expected to top $6 billion, the Treasury Board estimates that scrapping severance for those who quit or retire will save taxpayers about $500 million a year.
> 
> Treasury Board President Tony Clement, the federal minister responsible for public service compensation, defends the severance changes and payouts as short-term pain for longer-term gains.
> 
> "The savings for Canadian taxpayers are significant,"





> But those savings could be significantly offset by public service pay raises.
> 
> CBC News has learned that in exchange for getting rid of the severance provision, the Harper government is giving public servants a special 0.75 per cent increase in wages, a move that will cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
> 
> Dan Kelly, head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, says the government is right to be killing the severance perk, but asks, at what price?





> The public service windfall should not be confused with an additional $900 million in special severance being given to 19,000 federal workers who are actually losing their jobs to government cost-cutting.
> 
> Those workers are getting both the special severance connected to government downsizing, and the regular severance now being bought out by the government.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

I'll bet the math makes sense over the long haul.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *It is one thing to say ignorance of the law is no excuse, quite another when the entity in question makes it almost impossible to find out what the law is until after the fact.*
> 
> Personally I am not particularly impacted other than the insanity of having to file the forms in the first place. *I am quite capable of figuring out this is just plain wrong and demanding that the Government of Canada should refuse to participate. *At the very least the Government of Canada should make it quite clear that it does not support this insanity, that banks will not be required to file W9s or 1099s with the IRS no matter how strong a customers ties to the US are. Banks should also face severe penalties for giving any customer data to the IRS without a Canadian Court Order. Banks do file T4s and this information is available to the IRS when they can make a case for it. This is all the IRS needs to track down clear cases of tax fraud. Had they needed more believe me they would have asked for it when the tax treaty was negotiated.
> 
> Do download form 8938, then see if you can track down a plain English translation. It will be an eye opener. Remember miss an account or do it wrong and you're out 10G$ for each account missed or muffed and you are subject to arrest should you cross the US border, even if you don't owe the IRS a dime in taxes.
> 
> *The good news here is that when the Harper gang signs on to the NA Union, in all likelihood all Canadians will be subject to this form insanity, at the hands of the IRS. It is even possible they will have to back file all these forms for several years with severe penalties for having failed to anticipate the new rules. *
> 
> *Flaherty's total capitulation is a mighty clear indication that this government is unwilling to stand up for Canadian Sovereignty.*


As a US national it is one's responsibility to stay apprised of US tax law that is applicable to you... just as it is for Canadians living and working abroad.

They are not participating beyond respecting existing Tax Treaties and US sovereignty. 

More FUD and conspiracy theory...

Sigh... this is not a matter of Canadian sovereignty it is a matter of US sovereignty get your facts straight. Just because a US citizen or dual citizen lives in Canada does not make them exempt from US tax law. Also you make it sound like these filings only need to be filed by US citizens living in Canada... they need to be filed by a US citizen living *anywhere* abroad where tax treaties with the US exist.


----------



## screature

U.S. taxman to go easy on American residents in Canada
G&M 
Published Friday, Dec. 02 2011, 6:00 AM EST
Last updated Monday, Dec. 05 2011, 8:43 AM EST



> Americans living in Canada who’ve neglected to pay their U.S. taxes are getting a big break from Uncle Sam.
> 
> The U.S. Internal Revenue Service is poised to waive potentially massive penalties for Americans who agree to come clean and don’t owe any taxes, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> The new rules will be announced within weeks by the IRS, according to David Jacobson, the U.S. Ambassador to Canada, who has been swamped with complaints from anxious Canadians.
> 
> “What the IRS is saying here is that if ... you don’t owe taxes to the U.S., and you file your return and they show you don’t owe taxes, there aren’t going to be any penalties for having filed late,” Mr. Jacobson said in an interview Thursday.
> 
> Fears of a looming U.S. tax crackdown has caused a wave of angst among the roughly one million Americans living in Canada. Many of them long ago stopped filing, assuming they owed no tax.
> 
> Unlike most countries, the United States requires its citizens to file annual tax returns regardless of where they live and work. Many are now worried they'll be hit with punishing penalties as a result of recent U.S. efforts to expose citizens hiding assets in offshore tax havens.
> 
> Every year, Americans must also report all their foreign bank, brokerage, mutual fund and pension accounts. And by 2014, Canadian financial institutions will have to identify accounts held by U.S. citizens to the IRS.
> 
> *“We had an obligation to make our situation clear,” Mr. Jacobson explained. “What they have done is clarify what’s going to happen with innocent folks who didn’t know their obligations and are now going to try to comply with the law.”
> 
> Even Mr. Jacobson acknowledged the penalties for not filing can be “draconian,” even for “typical” Americans in Canada who owe nothing because Canadian taxes are typically higher.*
> 
> *“Our intention was not to abscond with some innocent grandmothers’ savings,” he said. “From where I’m sitting, it’s going to take care of the problem I was most concerned about ... which is that people just didn’t know they were supposed to do this.”*
> 
> Failure to file so-called Foreign Bank Account Reports can result in penalties of $10,000 (U.S.) a year for every account – fines that can quickly reach hundreds of thousands of dollars. In some extreme cases, the IRS can seize up to half the contents of accounts. Neglecting to file certain tax schedules also triggers fines.
> 
> Mike Vance, a 26-year-old doctor from Nanaimo, B.C., who moved to Canada as a child, said the partial amnesty is good news. But he said he no longer trusts that the United States won’t come after his assets in the future as the country struggles to deal with its massive debt.
> 
> “I’m using this as a warning sign,” explained Mr. Vance, who recently began the complex process of renouncing his U.S. citizenship. “I’m just starting out as a young doctor and going to have a fair bit of money invested in Canada.”
> 
> *Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, who repeatedly complained about the problem, said he was “happy” with the IRS policy shift.
> 
> “We told the U.S. that the vast majority of Canadians targeted were honest, hard-working and law-abiding individuals and they listened,” Mr. Flaherty said in a statement. “It’s a victory for Canadians and a testament to our positive working relationship with our American neighbours.”
> 
> The policy shift will come in the form of new guidance from the IRS, expected to be issued before the end of December. U.S. officials said the statement will make it clear that:
> 
> If a U.S. citizen files tax returns late and owes no taxes, there are no penalties for failure to file.
> 
> U.S. citizens who were unaware of the bank account reporting requirement can file previous reports now, along with a statement explaining why they’re late. No penalty will be imposed if the IRS determines that there is reasonable cause.
> 
> Individuals who took part in earlier amnesty programs this year and in 2009 can reapply and get back penalties already paid.
> 
> Accountant Kevyn Nightingale, a U.S. tax specialist with MNP LLP in Toronto, said the changes are “fabulous news” and “a reasonable response” for Canadians unwittingly caught in the crackdown.
> 
> But he said it remains unclear how many years of back taxes are covered, or how professionals and consultants who often incorporate their businesses in Canada will be treated. U.S. officials would also not say what would happen to people who owe relatively small amounts to the IRS.
> 
> Nor does the change end the concerns of Canadian financial institutions, which complain they’ll face massive costs trying to track all their U.S. account holders. Mr. Flaherty has warned that the new U.S. bank reporting rules, slated to come in 2014, could violate Canadian privacy laws.*



Finance Minister Jim Flaherty penned this letter, intended for publication in major newspapers including The Washington Post, The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.
FP Last Updated: Apr 26, 2012 5:18 PM ET



> Canada and the United States are neighbours and have long been the closest of friends. We share a common border and we share many common values.
> 
> One of those values is fighting tax evasion. We believe in fair tax systems where everybody pays their share.
> 
> *Many Canadians, however, have become concerned about the impact of a proposed piece of American tax legislation – the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA.
> 
> I share their concern.*
> 
> We appreciate efforts to combat tax evasion. In fact, our two jurisdictions co-operate to prevent it. *But FATCA has far-reaching extraterritorial implications. It would turn Canadian banks into extensions of the IRS and would raise significant privacy concerns for Canadians.
> 
> To be clear, Canada respects the sovereign right of the United States to determine its own tax legislation and its efforts to combat tax evasion – the underlying objective of FATCA.
> 
> But put frankly, Canada is not a tax haven. People do not flock to Canada to avoid paying taxes. In addition, we have existing ways of addressing these issues with the United States through our Bilateral Tax Information Exchange Agreement. As I said, we share the same goal of fighting tax evasion and we already have a system that works.
> 
> To rigidly impose FATCA on our citizens and financial institutions would not accomplish anything except waste resources on all sides.*
> 
> Another issue, this one affecting more directly the large numbers of dual U.S.- Canadian citizens and their relatives living in Canada, is the IRS’s Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR) filing requirements.
> 
> *Most of these Canadian citizens, many with only distant links to the United States, have a very limited knowledge of their tax reporting obligations to the United States. These are honest and law-abiding people, including many senior citizens now caught in a nerve-wracking situation. Moreover, because they work and pay taxes in Canada, they generally do not owe any taxes in the United States in any event. Their only transgression is failing to file the IRS paperwork they were never aware they were required to file.
> 
> These people are not the targets of a crackdown on tax evasion. These are not high rollers with offshore bank accounts. These are people who have made innocent errors of omission that deserve to be looked upon with leniency*
> 
> Rather, these people are typically hard-working citizens of our two great countries.
> 
> Faced with the knowledge that they do have an obligation to file U.S. tax returns (even if they most often do not actually owe any taxes) they want to do the right thing.
> 
> *But the threat of prohibitive fines for simply failing to file a return they were unaware they had to file, is a frightening prospect that is causing unnecessary stress and fear among law abiding hardworking dual citizens.
> 
> We support efforts to crack down on legitimate tax evasion. These measures, however, do not achieve that goal.*





> FACT SHEET
> 
> U.S. Tax and “FBAR” Filing Requirements for U.S. Citizens in Canada
> 
> This fact sheet is intended for information purposes only and should not be construed as tax advice. It is not intended or written to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any tax or penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) or the Canada Revenue Agency. Taxpayers who think they may be affected by any of the measures discussed herein should seek advice based on their particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor with appropriate experience.
> 
> U.S. citizens in Canada have to file U.S. tax returns: The U.S. government requires its citizens living abroad, including in Canada, to file income tax returns and associated tax forms - even if those U.S. citizens do not have to pay any U.S. income tax because they already pay Canadian income tax, and even if they have dual citizenship with Canada. *This requirement has been in place since 1913.*
> 
> They may also have to file another U.S. form – the FBAR: Under the U.S. Bank Secrecy Act, U.S. citizens must file a particular form if they have a total of more than $10,000 in accounts at non-U.S. financial institutions. This form is the Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts, commonly known as the “Foreign Bank Account Report”, or “FBAR”. *The FBAR filing requirements have been in place since 1972. *
> 
> Failure to file FBARs can lead to large penalties: The U.S. can levy significant financial penalties for failure to file an FBAR*. There are potential criminal sanctions as well.
> For more information (including penalties and consequences of non-compliance), please visit the IRS website:
> 
> For information concerning tax and FBAR filing requirements. Visit Information for U.S. Citizens or Dual Citizens Residing Outside the U.S..
> 
> The IRS has announced simplified filing procedures for U.S. citizens living abroad who pose low compliance risk to become compliant with their tax and FBAR reporting requirements, available as of September, 2012. Visit New Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident U.S. Taxpayers.
> 
> For more information regarding U.S. citizenship, please visit Citizenship and Nationality.
> 
> For advice, please contact a tax advisor: Canadians who think they may be affected by the U.S. filing requirements for tax returns or FBARs should contact a tax advisor with experience in U.S. taxation issues.
> 
> ** Penalties imposed under FBAR will not be collected by the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA): The Canada-United States Income Tax Convention contains a provision which allows for the collection by a country of taxes imposed by the other country, including civil penalties. This provision does not apply to penalties imposed under laws, such as the U.S. Bank Secrecy Act, that impose only a reporting requirement (as opposed to those that impose taxation along with reporting requirements). Also, CRA does not and will not collect the U.S. tax liability of a Canadian citizen if the individual was a Canadian citizen at the time the liability arose (whether or not the individual was also a U.S. citizen at that time)*.





> US Tax and FBAR Filing Requirements (Update)
> 
> · Building on recent positive developments, please find below an IRS press release and backgrounder that provides additional relief to dual-citizen Canadians and others on the US tax and FBAR issue (Foreign Bank Account Report):
> 
> · June 2012 – IRS Press Release: IRS Announces Efforts to Help U. S. Citizens Overseas Including Dual Citizens and Those with Foreign Retirement Plans
> 
> · June 2012 – IRS Backgrounder: New Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident U.S. Taxpayers
> 
> · This situation has been the cause of great anxiety for many dual-citizen Canadians. The government shares their concerns and have raised them directly with the US government.
> 
> · The Canadian government has told the US government that the vast majority of Canadians targeted were honest, hard-working and law-abiding individuals and they listened.
> 
> · The Canadian government has been persistent in raising these issues with the US government. Indeed, in this latest announcement, the IRS specifically noted special provisions for Canadian savings plans.
> 
> · This builds on the December 2011 IRS press release which laid out the parameters the IRS will use in applying leniency for dual citizens and green card holders who have not been filing their US tax returns and/or FBAR forms. For more information, see Information for U.S. Citizens or Dual Citizens Residing Outside the U.S.
> 
> · The Canadian government is happy with these further developments. It is yet another victory for Canadians and a testament to our positive working relationship with our American neighbours. Nevertheless, the Canadian government will continue to advocate on behalf of Canadians on such issues with the US government, including the implementation of FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act).


----------



## eMacMan

> The Canadian government has been persistent in raising these issues with the US government. Indeed, in this latest announcement, the IRS specifically noted special provisions for Canadian savings plans.


Yep that special provision is yet another form with the same old clause; $10,000 fine or they take half of it, whichever is greater.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Yep that special provision is yet another form with the same old clause; $10,000 fine or they take half of it, whichever is greater.


So again, what does this have to do with Canada? U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of their land.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> So again, what does this have to do with Canada? U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of their land.


Yep it seems eMacMan wants US nationals to have their cake and eat it too when they live and work abroad... he wants Canada to become a tax haven... if he wants to live in a tax haven maybe he should move to the Caymans.


----------



## Macfury

Would be sweet to declare bankruptcy any time you want, and put all of your cash into a U.S. bank a mile from the border. Alas, the international cabal has agreed that creditors can reach across international borders to satisfy debts.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Yep it seems eMacMan wants US nationals to have their cake and eat it too when they live and work abroad... he wants Canada to become a tax haven... if he wants to live in a tax haven maybe he should move to the Caymans.


Again we are not talking about taxes. In almost every case the IRS victims do not owe a dime in taxes and are already paying taxes to whatever country they happen to live in. 

What we are talking about is the IRS creating an ever changing mechanism to steal the life savings of any one living outside the USA that can in any way, however briefly be connected to the US. This would include Canadians who happen to stay a day or two to long in their Florida or Arizona winter retreats.

And yes the brown-nosing of the Harper regime to the IRS is entirely relevant.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Again we are not talking about taxes. In almost every case the IRS victims do not owe a dime in taxes and are already paying taxes to whatever country they happen to live in.
> 
> What we are talking about is the IRS creating an ever changing mechanism to steal the life savings of any one living outside the USA that can in any way, however briefly be connected to the US. This would include Canadians who happen to stay a day or two to long in their Florida or Arizona winter retreats.
> 
> And yes the brown-nosing of the Harper regime to the IRS is entirely relevant.


No, we are talking about a rule that applies to all U.S. citizens, regardless of whether they live in the U.S. or elsewhere. What difference does it make if it's a penalty or tax? A Canadian who "spends a day or two too long" in their U.S. winter retreat may be subject to some rule about filing a return for that year--who knows?--but not for every previous year of their life.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Again we are not talking about taxes. In almost every case the IRS victims do not owe a dime in taxes and are already paying taxes to whatever country they happen to live in.
> 
> What we are talking about is the IRS creating an ever changing mechanism to steal the life savings of any one living outside the USA that can in any way, however briefly be connected to the US. *This would include Canadians who happen to stay a day or two to long in their Florida or Arizona winter retreats.*
> 
> *And yes the brown-nosing of the Harper regime to the IRS is entirely relevant.*


No it doesn't.

And no it isn't.

Renounce your connections to the US if you are so concerned about it....


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> And no it isn't.
> 
> Renounce your connections to the US if you are so concerned about it....


For Canadians* who did not even know the IRS considers them Americans*, this involves back filing taxes, FUBARS, 8851s and possibly 8938s for 6 years. Flaherty did manage to persuade the IRS to drop that back from 10 years. Of course all the late filing penalties will apply, even though most of them will not owe the US any taxes whatsoever. So these individuals can expect the IRS to seize at least one quarter of their life savings. Then of course there is the exit tax which individuals who have managed to accumulate a reasonable degree of wealth will have to file for 10 years after they renounce. 

Oh and should you live in say Manitoba where the nearest US consulate is perhaps 1000 miles away be prepared to got to TO or Ottawa or Calgary at least twice, as this must be done in person and you will never accomplish that in one visit. And good luck getting an appointment.

BTW many Americans are doing just that because it is better than having to deal with the upward spiral of rape forms as they get older and are not quite as mentally alert.

Can you say Catch-22


----------



## jimbotelecom

Just Chequing!


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> For Canadians* who did not even know the IRS considers them Americans*,


Being born in the U.S. or having dual citizenship might have something to do with it.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Just Chequing!


Your ethnic humour is repugnant.


----------



## jimbotelecom

What you don't like use of chequing?


----------



## Dr.G.

Investigation: Mitt Romney?s Offshore Accounts, Tax Loopholes, and Mysterious I.R.A. | Politics | Vanity Fair

My mistake ............. I put my money in a Canadian bank.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Investigation: Mitt Romney?s Offshore Accounts, Tax Loopholes, and Mysterious I.R.A. | Politics | Vanity Fair
> 
> My mistake ............. I put my money in a Canadian bank.


I don't believe an RRSP can be structured in any other way.


----------



## MacDoc

Tick tick tick Mr. Harper......

good riddance....


Newfoundland NDP surges to first place in polls in historic shift - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Tick tick tick Mr. Harper......
> 
> good riddance....
> 
> 
> Newfoundland NDP surges to first place in polls in historic shift - The Globe and Mail


He's going to be ticking for a few more years yet, MacDoc--and you won't recognize the place when he's done with it!!


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> Tick tick tick Mr. Harper......
> 
> good riddance....
> 
> 
> Newfoundland NDP surges to first place in polls in historic shift - The Globe and Mail


Yep cause there are so many seats to be had in good ole' NFLD... 2.5 years is a lifetime in politics... gloat while you can, while the iron is hot... lest it cools down when the polls that really matter are counted.


----------



## Macfury

There's such delight among eco-ninnies at the idea of revisiting the National Energy (Welfare) Program in the guise of a carbon tax. 

Good luck with that!!


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Yep cause there are so many seats to be had in good ole' NFLD... 2.5 years is a lifetime in politics... gloat while you can, while the iron is hot... lest it cools down when the polls that really matter are counted.


The surge of the NDP here in NL is a provincial political matter. Still, here in St.John's East, we have both an NDP member in Paliament as well as in our House of Assembly.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> The surge of the NDP here in NL is a provincial political matter. Still, here in St.John's East, we have both an NDP member in Paliament as well as in our House of Assembly.


Certainly another condescending comment from the opposition Dr.G.

faith be with you!


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Certainly another condescending comment from the opposition Dr.G.
> 
> faith be with you!


Not condescending at all. We have an NDP member here in St.John's Center for both the provincial and federal delegates. However, I don't see the surge of the NDP here in NL as anything but a provincial matter. PM Harper is not involved in the next provincial election.

Not sure what you meant by your posting, jimbotelecom.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Can't blame this one on the previous administration can you?

procurement

Looking good Harper!


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Can't blame this one on the previous administration can you?
> 
> procurement
> 
> Looking good Harper!


Why would anyone lay blame for an act of fiscal responsibility? Reassessing the contracts in light of ability to pay is a good thing not a bad one.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Simply put the "Support the Troops" Government took a mere 6 years to realize their error. Mismanagement. Let the troops down. 

More to follow.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Simply put the "Support the Troops" Government took a mere 6 years to realize their error. Mismanagement. Let the troops down.
> 
> More to follow.



More to follow? You haven't provided anything yet. That's a positive article.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> More to follow? You haven't provided anything yet. That's a positive article.


Perhaps if one is an anti-Conservative type, negativity is built in?


----------



## i-rui

naw, even conservative commentators like John Ivison & Tom Flanagan ripped into the government on how poorly they handled this procurement on today's power & politics.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> naw, even conservative commentators like John Ivison & Tom Flanagan ripped into the government on how poorly they handled this procurement on today's power & politics.


I read that, not a pretty picture.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> naw, even conservative commentators like John Ivison & Tom Flanagan ripped into the government on how poorly they handled this procurement on today's power & politics.


I'm simply happy that they canceled it.


----------



## i-rui

i guess if the idea is to dismantle the military then it would be fine to cancel it, but from what i understand the army needs these trucks to replace aging ones and the bidding process is just going to start over again, so that money won't really be "saved"

in fact the cost will most likely go up as i don't see military equipment getting cheaper.

but beside all that, the way it was cancelled was strictly amateur hour and calls into question the government's competency on these procurements.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> ...but beside all that, the way it was cancelled was strictly amateur hour and calls into question the government's competency on these procurements.


It calls into question the capabilities of the civil servants who run procurement.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> i guess if the idea is to dismantle the military then it would be fine to cancel it, but from what i understand the army needs these trucks to replace aging ones and the bidding process is just going to start over again, so that money won't really be "saved"
> 
> in fact the cost will most likely go up as i don't see military equipment getting cheaper.
> 
> but beside all that, the way it was cancelled was strictly amateur hour and calls into question the government's competency on these procurements.


It's not the government as much as it's the DoD. Their procurement practices have been an issue of contention for years. A fix is needed in the DoD first, but perhaps McKay and his bureaucrats in the Ministry need a good spanking as well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

No it's the government. I'll have a little more info next week following a neighbourhood BBQ with a good number of DND folks in attendance. One of them is already fuming that's how I first heard of this. Only last month there was an accident involving 2 transport vehicles at nearby Shirley's Bay due to brake failure.

And now some facts - Trudeau admin was the govt that supported the troops the most:
Trudeau was Canada's top defence spender: study


----------



## groovetube

I don't doubt that the DND isn't blameless in all this. But the buck stops at the government, and, we all know just how competent McKay (government!) is in procurements, and being honest in how much things cost. If things weren't reported on the military jet scandal they would have simply gone through with with it all and it would have cost us billions.


----------



## SINC

Back in the 70s Trudeau spent almost 2% of GDP on the military. Today that is 1.2%. The thing is, the GDP has risen to a level that makes that 1.2% far more real dollars than Trudeau spent. Nice attempt at twisting things to put the current government in a bad light.


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> Back in the 70s Trudeau spent almost 2% of GDP on the military. Today that is 1.2%. The thing is, the GDP has risen to a level that makes that 1.2% far more real dollars than Trudeau spent. Nice attempt at twisting things to put the current government in a bad light.


No fact twisting at all. Just a report from a CON newspaper reporting the facts.


----------



## SINC

When did the conservatives buy this newspaper? I must have missed that.


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> When did the conservatives buy this newspaper? I must have missed that.


Glad you used small "c". I believe the founder was that well know liberal CONrad Black, soon to lose his Order of Canada, following his criminal conviction for various corporate fraud charges. The editorial and majority of staff are solid conservative supporters.

Just the facts.


----------



## groovetube

from the article:



> In terms of spending on national defence as a percentage of federal government expenditures, Trudeau again leads the pack at 13.3% in 1970.
> 
> That figure starts to drop after that, hitting a low point in the Chretien era in 1998 of 6.7%. Under Harper defence spending has climbed to 8.7% of federal government expenditures. *All figures have been adjusted for 2006 dollars.*


----------



## jimbotelecom

This is great! It's like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Here's another story about Pastor Manning and Carleton U. -
Carleton University set to renegotiate Preston Manning-fronted deal as group prepares to slam 'unprecedented' terms | Canada | News | National Post

Reverse course!


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> This is great! It's like shooting ducks in a barrel.


Apparently you missed the mayor's directives that this thread is to discuss politics, not belittle parties or posters. Will you ever get that?


----------



## jimbotelecom

SINC said:


> Apparently you missed the mayor's directives that this thread is to discuss politics, not belittle parties or posters. Will you ever get that?


What? You don't like duck? I admit they can be greasy but when you slowly roast them they come out moist and scrumptious especially when you stuff the cavity with orange slices.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> This is great! It's like shooting ducks in a barrel.
> 
> Here's another story about Pastor Manning and Carleton U. -
> Carleton University set to renegotiate Preston Manning-fronted deal as group prepares to slam 'unprecedented' terms | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> Reverse course!



And this is a Canadian political story how? You seem to just be posting stuff at random now.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> And this is a Canadian political story how? You seem to just be posting stuff at random now.


I don't share your narrow interpretation of political.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> I don't share your narrow interpretation of political.



What is your broad interpretation of political? Seems like you link to any story involving anyone who ever voted.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> What is your broad interpretation of political? Seems like you link to any story involving anyone who ever voted.


Not that broad but let's see...a known conservative think tank head arranges for a donation to a university that has strings attached and impinges upon academic freedom in a politics department isn't political? It's all over the news here in Ottawa partially due to C.U. being an Ottawa based institution.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Not that broad but let's see...a known conservative think tank head arranges for a donation to a university that has strings attached and impinges upon academic freedom in a politics department isn't political? It's all over the news here in Ottawa partially due to C.U. being an Ottawa based institution.


How about the real story? A university decides that it will not accept anyone's money if it impinges on their hiring policies.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> How about the real story? A university decides that it will not accept anyone's money if it impinges on their hiring policies.


Certainly that's one way of looking at it as it is your priveledge. However when you shine a light on what has happened in recent years in the U.S. academic sphere where donations have been made to U.S. U's to promote Oil Company interests or the dreck of Ayn Rand, all with strings attached, one might conclude there is an overall conservative attempt to influence academic freedom. To me it's political. The real story.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Here's another story on Pastor Manning's dealing with Carleton U and it also mentions deals in other Canadian U's.
Carleton renegotiating $15M donation for Manning school - Ottawa - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Certainly that's one way of looking at it as it is your priveledge. However when you shine a light on what has happened in recent years in the U.S. academic sphere where donations have been made to U.S. U's to promote Oil Company interests or the dreck of Ayn Rand, all with strings attached, one might conclude there is an overall conservative attempt to influence academic freedom. To me it's political. The real story.


And there's no effort by leftist groups to influence education or to limit academic freedom? George Soros anyone? A little research would show that this sort of thing has been going on for well over a century--with strings attached--on both sides of the political spectrum and on both sides of the border. 

I'm always fascinated when people who go out of their way to criticize the literature of Ayn Rand. There's no denying that the work has significant power to upset a certain group of people.


----------



## eMacMan

Yep it's political. Deception and manipulation are the very foundation of politics, no matter what the party name.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I'm always fascinated when people who go out of their way to criticize the literature of Ayn Rand. There's no denying that the work has significant power to upset a certain group of people.


I quite enjoyed it as a kid, but even then I recognized how wildly implausible and inconsistent with real human sociology it is. But I certainly think it's worth reading.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - Paul Krugman


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Apparently you missed the mayor's directives that this thread is to discuss politics, not belittle parties or posters. Will you ever get that?


SINC, I suggest that your interpretation of what constitutes legitimate criticisms and the Mayor's may not be identical. If you think someone's being offensive, report it, don't try to play thread-cop.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> And there's no effort by leftist groups to influence education or to limit academic freedom? George Soros anyone? A little research would show that this sort of thing has been going on for well over a century--with strings attached--on both sides of the political spectrum and on both sides of the border.
> 
> I'm always fascinated when people who go out of their way to criticize the literature of Ayn Rand. There's no denying that the work has significant power to upset a certain group of people.


Soros is a capitalist.

You have a broad interpretation of literature.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Soros is a capitalist.


Can leftists not be capitalists? Soros is a leftist.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> This is great! It's like shooting ducks in a barrel.
> 
> Here's another story about Pastor Manning and Carleton U. -
> Carleton University set to renegotiate Preston Manning-fronted deal as group prepares to slam 'unprecedented' terms | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> Reverse course!





jimbotelecom said:


> Here's another story on Pastor Manning's dealing with Carleton U and it also mentions deals in other Canadian U's.
> Carleton renegotiating $15M donation for Manning school - Ottawa - CBC News


As per usual no analysis just partisan hyperbolic rhetoric from JNN... rather than actually looking at the facts outlined in the article:



> The latest incident highlights what James Turk, CAUT's executive director, called a worrisome trend in which some cash-strapped Canadian universities have given up their academic independence to the highest bidder.
> 
> "The integrity of what universities are is at stake," Turk said in an interview...
> 
> Private donor agreements within publicly funded universities have been making news of late over issues of academic freedom, corporate control and public policy manipulation.
> 
> This spring, the Canadian Association of University Teachers threatened to boycott Wilfrid Laurier University and the University of Waterloo if they did not "amend the governance structure for the Balsillie School of International Affairs so that academic integrity is ensured."
> 
> York University's Osgoode Hall subsequently cancelled a deal with the Balsillie Foundation over similar concerns.
> 
> CAUT has studied the newly released Carleton agreement and "it raises all of the same questions," said Turk.
> 
> "Arguably it goes farther than the agreement between Balsillie and Waterloo and Wilfrid Laurier.* It's absolutely unprecedented and unacceptable for a university to give a donor or a donor's foundation any voice whatsoever in hiring or curriculum or any other academic matter."
> 
> Turk noted the irony that the suspect agreement comes from a school designed to train future political support staff who will advise the country's leaders, but he absolved Riddell of blame.
> 
> "The bad guys, if I can put it that way in this, are the universities and not the donors. That donors would want to have influence is not surprising. But they only have influence if the universities give it to them."
> 
> And given that the Manning Centre is proudly partisan, Turk said the decision to hand over control of the steering committee to Manning and Riddell's proxies is perplexing.
> 
> "So the fact that the university then would agree to the governance of this program being in part given over to the donor just makes the whole program suspect. But in a more worrisome way it just makes the whole university suspect.*"


I.E. a donor can write whatever they want into a donor agreement and it is up to the university to accept or reject those provisions and clearly it was Carleton's BOD who were at fault for initially accepting provisions that undermined their academic independence.


----------



## jimbotelecom

:yawn:


----------



## Macfury

The facts--so boring. Why can't you stop at headline like the hoi polloi, screature?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The facts--so boring. Why can't you stop at headline like the hoi polloi, screature?


I don't know MF it just seems to be a failing of my inquiring mind I guess. Some people would rather just be intellectually lazy and if the facts don't fit with their partisan hyperbolic rhetoric they just aren't interested and get bored and just skim over those parts... The provocative headline is all they are interested in...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I don't know MF it just seems to be a failing of my inquiring mind I guess. Some people would rather just be intellectually lazy and if the facts don't fit with their partisan hyperbolic rhetoric they just aren't interested and get bored and just skim over those parts... The provocative headline is all they are interested in...


It's a tough life when your cursed with intellectual rigour.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Literature.

The political.

Need I say more.


----------



## jimbotelecom

The pile is starting to get high this hot, hot, summer. How about a little Norman Bethune worship for the CONS!

Tory MP blasts his own government over Bethune visitor centre

yeah I know, I know, more JNN, blah, blah, blah.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> The pile is starting to get high this hot, hot, summer. How about a little Norman Bethune worship for the CONS!
> 
> Tory MP blasts his own government over Bethune visitor centre
> 
> yeah I know, I know, more JNN, blah, blah, blah.


No--more Jimbo never checks the other threads before posting old news:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100983-china-canada-norman-bethune.html


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> No--more Jimbo never checks the other threads before posting old news:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100983-china-canada-norman-bethune.html


Thanks for the note. I'm not updated on new posts. Love it.

Peace dude!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Hey is the Brother Bethune topic political? How about integrating or consolidating the threads?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> The pile is starting to get high this hot, hot, summer. How about a little Norman Bethune worship for the CONS!
> 
> Tory MP blasts his own government over Bethune visitor centre
> 
> yeah I know, I know, more JNN, blah, blah, blah.





Macfury said:


> No--more Jimbo never checks the other threads before posting old news:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100983-china-canada-norman-bethune.html





jimbotelecom said:


> Thanks for the note. I'm not updated on new posts. Love it.
> 
> Peace dude!





jimbotelecom said:


> Hey is the Brother Bethune topic political? How about integrating or consolidating the threads?


:lmao: It's amazing what won't titillate some for 30 seconds and think it is still a BIG thing.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> :lmao: It's amazing what won't titillate some for 30 seconds and think it is still a BIG thing.


Golly gee eh


----------



## jimbotelecom

Personally, I'm for the right of individuals to call the shot on this. I know, I know, more JNN...blah, blah, blah -

One party is not - let's see rhymes with fawns....

Federal government appealing assisted-suicide ruling - Politics - CBC News


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Iran boycott bypass*

I like this. My dentist and his dental assistant wife have recently been screwed by TD bank.

I know, I know, JNN, political....
Canadian Addresses and iTunes Gift Cards Help Apple Products Flourish in Iran | iPhone in Canada Blog - Canada's #1 iPhone Resource


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> I know, I know, JNN, political....
> Canadian Addresses and iTunes Gift Cards Help Apple Products Flourish in Iran | iPhone in Canada Blog - Canada's #1 iPhone Resource


Yup and then there's this:



> Canada’s Foreign Affairs department issued a warning Tuesday to Iranian diplomats who are allegedly using their Ottawa embassy to recruit Iranian-Canadians to serve the Islamic Republic’s interests.


Iran embassy warned by Ottawa over alleged recruitment of expats in Canada | News | National Post


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Hey is the Brother Bethune topic political? How about integrating or consolidating the threads?


Get it right...it's *comrade* Bethune, FFS.


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> Yup and then there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> Iran embassy warned by Ottawa over alleged recruitment of expats in Canada | News | National Post


I enjoy your input more than others.

Ah so my Iranian born dentist and wife are spies?

OMG! What to do?


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> I enjoy your input more than others.
> 
> Ah so my Iranian born dentist and wife are spies?
> 
> OMG! What to do?


Have all your teeth pulled, there's probably a listening device implanted in one of your molars.


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> Get it right...it's *comrade* Bethune, FFS.


Ja vol, mein commandant!


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> Ja vol, mein commandant!


Still can't get it right...

It's "ja vol mein *comissar*..."


----------



## jimbotelecom

kps said:


> Still can't get it right...
> 
> It's "ja vol mein *comissar*..."


My 2nd language is French. Please excuse.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Nice teeth!

yeah I know, I know JNN blah, blah blah...
Defence minister's wife opposed to Canadian troops in Iran - Politics - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

It could be worse, any Canadian attempting to deposit US sourced funds into his Canadian Bank Account may soon be forced to fill out an IRS W9 form or have his bank send 30% of those funds to the IRS and perhaps close his account altogether. Something that is perfectly OK by Canada's finance minister.

BTW if this seems a little far fetched, it is already happening on a massive scale in Switzerland.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> It could be worse, any Canadian attempting to deposit US sourced funds into his Canadian Bank Account may soon be forced to fill out an IRS W9 form or have his bank send 30% of those funds to the IRS and perhaps close his account altogether. Something that is perfectly OK by Canada's finance minister.
> 
> BTW if this seems a little far fetched, it is already happening on a massive scale in Switzerland.


I have filled out W8s and W9s for the past 20 years


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> It could be worse, any Canadian attempting to deposit US sourced funds into his Canadian Bank Account may soon be forced to fill out an IRS W9 form or have his bank send 30% of those funds to the IRS and perhaps close his account altogether. Something that is perfectly OK by Canada's finance minister.
> 
> BTW if this seems a little far fetched, it is already happening on a massive scale in Switzerland.


You still spreading this FUD and pure misinformation after being presented with the facts??? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You still spreading this FUD and pure misinformation after being presented with the facts??? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


screature, theW8s and W9s identify you as a foreign supplier and absolve you of any withholding. These forms are not even filed with the IRS, but filed with the company accounting department as backup for the reason they are not withholding taxes for a particular payee.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> screature, theW8s and W9s identify you as a foreign supplier and absolve you of any withholding. These forms are not even filed with the IRS, but filed with the company accounting department as backup for the reason they are not withholding taxes for a particular payee.


One of the reasons I called FUD on eMacMan... I provided him with the most up to date facts over a week ago and he still doesn't seem to want to understand... or at least he would rather pretend not to because it doesn't fit within his FUD dissemination agenda.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

Wind turbines were rushed into production without the normal level of study expected from such prominent technology. Oil sands technology was approved decades ago.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Wind turbines were rushed into production without the normal level of study expected from such prominent technology. Oil sands technology was approved decades ago.


Not to mention let's take a look at what each provides to the economy therefore contributing to health care, social services, infrastructure, retirement programs, food, housing, etc., etc. etc.... time for a reality check me thinks...  A lame a** editorial cartoon if I have ever seen one.


----------



## SINC

Those rolling power blackouts in Alberta last week were caused by the lack of wind. No wind meant 7% of Alberta's grid went down with the wind. A modern-day 'Gone with the Wind' if you will:

Power struggle | Columnists | Opinion | Edmonton Sun

It was not the sole cause, but it was the trigger for the event.


----------



## i-rui

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


:clap:


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You still spreading this FUD and pure misinformation after being presented with the facts??? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


Do try to look into an issue before calling someone a liar. Just one of thousands of articles on this.

Swiss expats are fed up with banks in their homeland. - swissinfo

Whether Canadian banks will actually try to unscramble the indecipherable FATCA regs if told to adhere, or do what the Swiss Banks are already doing is anybodies guess. Either way it is appalling that the US is being allowed to pull this crap without even a whimper of protest from Canada's Finance Minister.

EDIT: While this article refers mainly to Swiss living in the US having their Swiss bank accounts closed, it is also now almost impossible for Americans living in Switzerland to obtain or even keep a Swiss bank account.


----------



## groovetube

From the article, it certainly wasn't the sole cause, but it seems some geniuses out there thought it best to deregulate the power hydro out there. SOmething the conservatives here have been hot to do for some time, and thankfully, hasn't happened, yet.

All of the power sources, wind, coal, gas, bio etc., are all capable of failure, blaming the problem because one failed to deliver seems to gloss over the larger problems in the system.

Ontario has it's share of big problems, but at least we haven't deregulated.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, I read the article thoroughly. It does not support your contentions. Also, I have little patience for an article that searches Swiss blogs for posts, which are used in place of an interview.


----------



## groovetube

perhaps you missed this:



> Then, for whatever reasons, *six major power generating units went out of commission*, in effect taking the safety margin into negative territory. Let that go on for too long, and disaster can happen.


So, it wasn't the lack of wind that put it into negative, it was the 6 major power stations that went out of commission.

and this:



> *But this emergency happened, and it calls into question the ability of Alberta’s deregulated power system to handle peak demand.*
> 
> Alberta’s deregulated electricity system makes a ton of money for electricity generators during those intense, but usually short, peak demand periods. Electricity that’s not pre-sold is known as “merchant” power – electricity that’s priced on a literally minute-to-minute basis depending on supply and demand.
> 
> When demand is up, like last Monday, the price of merchant power can soar.
> 
> Any electricity economist can tell you it’s in the electricity producers’ interest, in any deregulated power system, NOT to create too much capacity. It’s in a tight supply situation that they make the most money.
> 
> “Alberta’s deregulated power system,” says a now-retired utility executive, “*is inherently designed to be gamed*.”


I believe it does support my contention very well.

I'll repeat, any of the technologies can fail, and both wind, -and- the coal did. Blaming this on no wind is missing the bigger problem here.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Do try to look into an issue* before calling someone a liar. Just one of thousands of articles on this.
> 
> Swiss expats are fed up with banks in their homeland. - swissinfo
> 
> Whether Canadian banks will actually try to unscramble the indecipherable FATCA regs if told to adhere, or do what the Swiss Banks are already doing is anybodies guess. Either way it is appalling that the US is being allowed to pull this *crap without even a whimper of protest from Canada's Finance Minister.*
> 
> EDIT: While this article refers mainly to Swiss living in the US having their Swiss bank accounts closed, it is also now almost impossible for Americans living in Switzerland to obtain or even keep a Swiss bank account.


:lmao: I dare say I am more familiar with this file than you are and you continue to spread FUD.

It is your suggestion that our government is complicit with the US in this that makes you a spreader of FUD.

I have shown you several documents indicating the Finance Minister's protestations and still FUD, actually BS, from you.

I don't give a rat's a** about the Swiss situation and BTW I never called you a liar. You are completely misinformed (not informed at all) on what our government is doing on the diplomatic level working with the US to try and make sure that law abiding citizens dual or otherwise don't get caught up in this IRS dragnet.

I have had it with you on this topic because you simply choose to ignore facts and valid information relative to the Canadian experience so... m'bye, bye on this issue.


----------



## groovetube

Yow.

Well at least the sun is shining.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> :lmao: I dare say I am more familiar with this file than you are and you continue to spread FUD.
> 
> It is your suggestion that our government is complicit with the US in this that makes you a spreader of FUD.
> 
> I have shown you several documents indicating the Finance Minister's protestations and still FUD, actually BS, from you.
> 
> I don't give a rat's a** about the Swiss situation and BTW I never called you a liar. You are completely misinformed (not informed at all) on what our government is doing on the diplomatic level working with the US to try and make sure that law abiding citizens dual or otherwise don't get caught up in this IRS dragnet.
> 
> I have had it with you on this topic because you simply choose to ignore facts and valid information relative to the Canadian experience so... m'bye, bye on this issue.


And so far the only changes from the US side are entirely cosmetic. 

I wonder if these diplomatic endeavours will be as wildly "successful" as the Softwood lumber efforts were? One statement of protest in December of last year, later modified to read it's OK for Canadian Banks to be subject to US regulation on Canadian soil just does not cut it.

China and Pakistan, both have a large number of citizens or former citizens residing in Canada. I wonder if either of those nations enacted identical legislation, if the Harper bunch would be quite so laid back in its response?


----------



## Dr.G.

"Wining and dining at Canada’s embassies abroad escaped the axe as the federal government grappled with across-the-board cuts in this year’s budget.

Former British Columbia Premier Gordon Campbell is racking up the biggest hospitality tab so far this year.

In the first five months of 2012, the high commissioner to the United Kingdom has billed $67,026 on dinners, lunches, and cocktail receptions. He's also billed three tuxedo rentals at a cost of $600.

Campbell's total tab is nearly three times more than any other ambassador in the same period, according to figures posted online by Foreign Affairs under proactive disclosure rules."

Gordon Campbell's hospitality tab tops other diplomats - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News

He should be replaced by MP Bev Oda if we want to bring down these costs.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> "Wining and dining at Canada’s embassies abroad escaped the axe as the federal government grappled with across-the-board cuts in this year’s budget.
> 
> Former British Columbia Premier Gordon Campbell is racking up the biggest hospitality tab so far this year.
> 
> In the first five months of 2012, the high commissioner to the United Kingdom has billed $67,026 on dinners, lunches, and cocktail receptions. He's also billed three tuxedo rentals at a cost of $600.
> 
> Campbell's total tab is nearly three times more than any other ambassador in the same period, according to figures posted online by Foreign Affairs under proactive disclosure rules."
> 
> Gordon Campbell's hospitality tab tops other diplomats - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News
> 
> He should be replaced by _former _MP Bev Oda if we want to bring down these costs.


:lmao::clap: :clap::clap::lmao: Yes indeed Bev is currently on the look out for any opportunity to increase her meager pension income.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> :lmao::clap: :clap::clap::lmao: Yes indeed Bev is currently on the look out for any opportunity to increase her meager pension income.


Maybe this sort of position would allow her to double-dip ............ she would get her pension while earning a new salary ........... and a higher pension when she leaves that position as well being named to the Senate when she leave this position...... and yet another pension ............. Way to go, Bev!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap::clap:


----------



## CubaMark

*Quebec Superior Court declares parts of the 2009 federal budget unconstitutional*



> The Quebec Superior Court of Justice has just delivered a major blow to the Harper government in a decision involving the CBC's unionized workers. The Court has ruled that a number of key clauses were unconstitutional in the budget legislation limiting spending which was passed on March 12, 2009.
> 
> It's a clear victory for CUPE Local 675 who challenged the legislation for violating the right to collective bargaining, a right protected under the guarantee of freedom of association in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The bill actually overrode wage increases that had previously been negotiated in the collective agreement with no opportunity to renegotiate.


(CUPE.ca)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Quebec Superior Court declares parts of the 2009 federal budget unconstitutional*


Next time they'll be smarter and just fire the bums. Lesson learned.


----------



## groovetube

2 dead, 19 injured after gunfire erupts in Toronto | Toronto

Thank goodness our government has been tough on crime and passed all those laws to keep us safe!

The shootings here is getting crazy.


----------



## MacDoc

Fancy that












> *Manitoba as a star player*
> 
> Manitoba “has never been a star performer, but it’s never been a weak performer either,” Mr. Miron says. In terms of household wealth, the province is positioned to be the fastest-growing in the country, having seen a 2.3-per-cent growth to $270,639 in 2011.
> 
> While natural resources are often touted as the key driving factor in the Prairies, Mr. Miron says*, the province’s diverse “everyman economy” helped drive its rise in net worth. “There’s a little bit of everything, and there’s private sector investment and infrastructure development there to drive it.”*
> 
> Mr. Murenbeeld says Manitobans are feeding off of the province’s strong growth. “When growth is fairly strong, people tend to take on a little bit more risk,” he says. “You’re feeling more confident of income prospects and employment prospects.”


Financial report exposes tender spots across Canada - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> Fancy that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Financial report exposes tender spots across Canada - The Globe and Mail


Manitoba should heed the warnings of dangerous economic experiments!


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Fancy that


Nova Scotia fared the worst--under an NDP premiere.


----------



## CubaMark

Odd observation, MF, considering that the report didn't mention NS government policies, but rather Nova Scotians' economic behaviour (i.e., getting "burned" in the stock market). Those who played the capitalist game lost...

As for the province, the NDP government is trying to clean up the long history of Progressive Conservative and Liberal mismanagement (not to mention outright theft). Hopefully Nova Scotians will understand that fixing a screwed up economy isn't easy nor pleasant, and not blame the party that is trying to put things right (not that I agree with all of the NDP's decisions - they've made a few head-scratchers).


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Odd observation, MF, considering that the report didn't mention NS government policies, but rather Nova Scotians' economic behaviour (i.e., getting "burned" in the stock market). Those who played the capitalist game lost...
> 
> As for the province, the NDP government is trying to clean up the long history of Progressive Conservative and Liberal mismanagement (not to mention outright theft). Hopefully Nova Scotians will understand that fixing a screwed up economy isn't easy nor pleasant, and not blame the party that is trying to put things right (not that I agree with all of the NDP's decisions - they've made a few head-scratchers).


I'm not drawing that conclusion at all CM. Some provincial NDP governments do a better job of managing finances than those of other parties. I'm just pointing out that MacDoc is cherry-picking data and drawing false "conclusions" that are easily disproved by information supplied in the same article.


----------



## groovetube

by the same token I think it easily disproves the notion I hear quite often that the ndp can't manage an economy.

Seems this isn't true at all. And you're right, it isn't a simple thing to simply assume one party is better at economic issues by default.


----------



## MacDoc

The last survey I saw showed centre left parties worldwide were better economic managers - the comment was that they "learned their lesson". That however was before this meltdown which has deeper roots in the housing bubble.
Not in thrall to the military is part of it on a federal level - the right wing talks fiscal management - evidence points the other way in results with Mulroney and Harper and clowns like Ronnie Raygun.

...in Manitoba's case not in thrall to the insurance companies either unlike Ontario. 
My sense is the NFP have not lost sight of public weal unlike some other trough feeders or political ideologues.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> The last survey I saw showed centre left parties worldwide were better economic managers - the comment was that they "learned their lesson". That however was before this meltdown which has deeper roots in the housing bubble.
> Not in thrall to the military is part of it on a federal level - the right wing talks fiscal management - evidence points the other way in results with Mulroney and Harper and clowns like Ronnie Raygun.
> 
> ...in Manitoba's case not in thrall to the insurance companies either unlike Ontario.
> My sense is the NFP have not lost sight of public weal unlike some other trough feeders or political ideologues.


The systemic weakness of the European economies is the housing bubble? Nice try...


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Where do you even begin with claptrap like the stuff above? Why don't these cartoonists do a little research?


----------



## bryanc

I thought it was quite funny, but oddly full of facts and details. Are there some details that are not true? Is the oil not bound for China and Asian markets? Are there more than 15,000 people working in the fishery on the west coast? I agree that the 1.3 billion per year subsidy for the oil industry is a very low estimate, but it makes the point.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Yes. After Quebec fleeced Nfld over Hydro you would think that Alberta might be a bit smarter about this. Lessons have been learned. 

Never again.


----------



## groovetube

I was also wondering what facts were incorrect. I still don't see any 'research' in response either.


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Yes. After Quebec fleeced Nfld over Hydro you would think that Alberta might be a bit smarter about this. Lessons have been learned.
> 
> Never again.


All too true, jt .......... all too true. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I was also wondering what facts were incorrect. I still don't see any 'research' in response either.


It's because it's an automated response.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> it's because it's an automated response.


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Fishing, hunting and trapping employ just 2,200 people in total in BC.

Fishing, Hunting & Trapping - Goods Sector - Major Industries - A Guide to the BC Economy and Labour Market

Enbridge does not own the oil--it is transporting the oil.

Enbridge is not the only one who will profit. The point is to create employment in producing the oil as well. It also improves our balance of trade.

Suggesting China will profit from buying our oil is like suggesting that we will profit by buying their rice.

There is no guarantee that selling oil to China will make the domestic price of oil go up or down.


----------



## groovetube

Didn't I hear about Chinese companies buying up oil sands companies?

I thought I did.

As for the 2200 number, this is interesting:
Fisheries and Oceans Canada | Pacific Region



> In carrying out Fisheries and Oceans’ mandate, over 2200 employees are engaged in diverse and challenging tasks and activities throughout the region. Working from offices, field camps, ships and helicopters, *their roles are numerous and range from patrol and research vessel officers and crew to community liaison officers, enforcement officers, scientists of all disciplines, economists, policy analysts and advisors.*


What about the actual fishermen, skippers and all the related jobs after the fact?


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> Didn't I hear about Chinese companies buying up oil sands companies?
> 
> I thought I did.


Good memory; Sinopec bought Syncrude from ConocoPhillips in 2010. So it's Chinese oil, being shipped to China, for Chinese profits... at Canadian risk.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Sinopec bought Syncrude from ConocoPhillips in 2010. So it's Chinese oil, being shipped to China, for Chinese profits... at Canadian risk.


Chinese owned oil is about 2.2% of total output. Again, there is nothing wrong with this. The Chinese must invest billions of dollars in Canada to even achieve that tiny level of output.

Oil Sand Box: Oil sand production by country

Your argument ais a bit of a canard, however, bryanc. You're applying an argument to oil (foreign-owned) that you would not apply to another company. For example, nobody complains that Ford Motor Company is a foreign-owned company using Canadian infrastructure to deliver its cars to the market.

Likewise, only through exports can the country's trade balance remain positive.


----------



## CubaMark

The delivery of Ford vehicle to market has a somewhat less potentially harmful impact on the environment than an oil spill, as Enbridge seems to have a habit of permitting to happen...


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Your argument ais a bit of a canard, however, bryanc. You're applying an argument to oil (foreign-owned) that you would not apply to another company. For example, nobody complains that Ford Motor Company is a foreign-owned company using Canadian infrastructure to deliver its cars to the market.


I absolutely apply the same argument to Ford or any other foreign owned company. These companies should be receiving no subsidies, and the government should be regulating their operations, not supporting or financing them.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> What about the actual fishermen, skippers and all the related jobs after the fact?


yes, the 2200 from Macfury's link represents GOVERNMENT workers in teh industry. The actual private sector people involved brings that up to over 15,500.

from here :

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/reports/BC-Fisheries-Aquaculture-Sector-2007.pdf



> More than 15,500 British Columbians were employed6 in the fisheries and aquaculture sector in 2005
> · An estimated 15,500 British Columbians worked in the fisheries and aquaculture sector in 2005. Sport fishing (7,700) was the largest employer, followed by fish processing (3,700), aquaculture (2,100), and commercial fishing (2,000).





Macfury said:


> For example, nobody complains that Ford Motor Company is a foreign-owned company using Canadian infrastructure to deliver its cars to the market.


but there is an actual employment benefit to Ford building cars in Canada. With the proposed pipelines Canada is actually shipping potential refining jobs to China. ANy jobs are strictly temporary (construction) and many will actually be filled by using foreign labour.


the cartoon is bang on IMO.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> yes, the 2200 from Macfury's link represents GOVERNMENT workers in teh industry. The actual private sector people involved brings that up to over 15,500.
> 
> from here :
> 
> http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/reports/BC-Fisheries-Aquaculture-Sector-2007.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but there is an actual employment benefit to Ford building cars in Canada. With the proposed pipelines Canada is actually shipping potential refining jobs to China. ANy jobs are strictly temporary (construction) and many will actually be filled by using foreign labour.
> 
> 
> the cartoon is bang on IMO.


It appeared to me to be quite low, if one thought about it for a minute, and simply a cherry picked number.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> The delivery of Ford vehicle to market has a somewhat less potentially harmful impact on the environment than an oil spill, as Enbridge seems to have a habit of permitting to happen...


heh yeah. Just a small insignificant little detail!


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> yes, the 2200 from Macfury's link represents GOVERNMENT workers in teh industry. The actual private sector people involved brings that up to over 15,500.


No, the same figure is included in the report you referenced. These were direct jobs. Since the poorly researched cartoon wished to limit the pipeline benefit to 217 direct jobs, then including all of the indirect jobs in the fisheries industry is an unfair comparison.

However, even the notion that a single pipeline threatens all 15,000 jobs is ludicrous. it would be like saying that a tornado threatens 300,000 manufacturing jobs in Canada because you never know when a single manufacturing facility might be hit.

Add to that the fact that much of BC's fisheries output is now produced through aquaculture (fish farms) and you decrease that number even further.


----------



## groovetube

incorrect, if the government website link is the right one.

The 2200 is NOT, what you say it is.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> However, even the notion that a single pipeline threatens all 15,000 jobs is ludicrous. it would be like saying that a tornado threatens 300,000 manufacturing jobs in Canada because you never know when a single manufacturing facility might be hit.


How many jobs were affected by the Gulf Horizon spill? Or the Exxon Valdez? Of course all this is ignoring the non-human effects, as is typical for economic calculations, but why shouldn't we be concerned about the endangered species that live in the pristine wilderness of northern BC?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> How many jobs were affected by the Gulf Horizon spill? Or the Exxon Valdez? Of course all this is ignoring the non-human effects, as is typical for economic calculations, but why shouldn't we be concerned about the endangered species that live in the pristine wilderness of northern BC?


Maybe you are. But I am discussing the cartoon right now.


----------



## groovetube

Let's also remember that a lot of the reasons the fish/trapping industries are slowing and have been moving to fish farms is because of over fishing, and heavy environmental damages over the years.

We for whatever reason, don't seem to get this, and want to continue letting big companies like Enbridge further damage things to make things worse. It's important to recognize this and continue to hold their feet to the fire over this, and stop giving them free passes.

Recent history has shown what a horrible mistake that is.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Bev Oda doesn't regret charging taxpayers $16 for an orange juice and said today on her last day as the MP for Durham that she is retiring with honour and pride.

In an interview with CBC Network's Power & Politics, Oda refused to explain why she upgraded to a more expensive hotel during a trip to London last June and said that everyone should "move on" from talking about her travel expenses."

Bev Oda retiring with pride and no OJ regrets - Politics - CBC News

True. It is only taxpayers dollars ................. and there are a lot more where they came from.


----------



## groovetube

when the conservatives were outraged at the way the liberals were spending money, I never for a minute thought that they meant they could spend more of it faster.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> when the conservatives were outraged at the way the liberals were spending money, I never for a minute thought that they meant they could spend more of it faster.


However, gt, they spent our money on good causes .............. that is why they got elected with a majority. "Power corrupts ............ and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> However, gt, they spent our money on good causes .............. that is why they got elected with a majority. "Power corrupts ............ and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Paix, mon ami.



Absolutely!


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Absolutely!


“The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections.” John Dalberg-Acton


----------



## CubaMark

*Nice pension, there, Bev...*

*Bev Oda to collect $700K in benefits over next 15 years on $130K contribution*



> Embattled former cabinet minister Bev Oda offered no explanation Tuesday for her decision to resign as she prepared for her life as a private citizen — one who will garner nearly $700,000 in benefits by age 80 despite contributing only about $130,000 to her pension.
> 
> The Canadian Taxpayers Federation has calculated that the 67-year-old Oda now qualifies for a parliamentary pension of $52,183 a year.


(NationalPost)


----------



## steviewhy

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Nice pension, there, Bev...*
> 
> *Bev Oda to collect $700K in benefits over next 15 years on $130K contribution*
> 
> 
> 
> (NationalPost)





steviewhy said:


> Nice, that'll get her 9.22 glasses of orange juice per day until age 80.


Hopefully, she will be named to the Canadian Senate, which has a good salary along with an excellent pension. This should top up her finances and help her through the hard times.


----------



## groovetube

Who?s sitting on all the cash? Corporate Canada - The Globe and Mail

It sure is a good thing we gave them all a huge tax cut to create all those jobs.

Next we'll hear how this hoarding of cash is good for us.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Who?s sitting on all the cash? Corporate Canada - The Globe and Mail
> 
> It sure is a good thing we gave them all a huge tax cut to create all those jobs.
> 
> Next we'll hear how this hoarding of cash is good for us.


Haven't you heard of "trickle down", gt???? Just wait, and your share will "trickle down" to you .................. keep waiting ........................... wait a bit more .........


----------



## groovetube

well my inc. created jobs this year, but I can tell you it had NOTHING to do with any tax cut whatsoever.


----------



## groovetube

And while we've handed billions and billions into corp cash horders, we continue to see headlines like this: Federal cuts threaten program hiring medically discharged vets - Politics - CBC News

Priorities eh.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> And while we've handed billions and billions into corp cash horders, we continue to see headlines like this: Federal cuts threaten program hiring medically discharged vets - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Priorities eh.


Well, they served their country and now should be helped. I find this shocking and have sent a strong email to my MP. This is just not right.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> And while we've handed billions and billions into corp cash horders, we continue to see headlines like this: Federal cuts threaten program hiring medically discharged vets - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Priorities eh.


Just one more glorious illustration as to why we need to sink that commie, pinko, left wing broadcaster <insert the long longed for sarcasm emoticon>


----------



## jimbotelecom

Looks like another financial fiasco heading our way:

The National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy – $35 Billion Or Will The Parliamentary Budget Officer Find Out It Will Cost Even More? | Ottawa Citizen

And they told the public they were fiscally competent managers....yuk...yuk...yuk.


----------



## groovetube

Surging loonie has some benefits, Flaherty says - The Globe and Mail



> A Canadian dollar trading above par with the United States isn’t all bad, says Jim Flaherty, noting that businesses are using their stronger purchasing power to boost productivity through new investments.


I guess our finance minister isn't aware of the cash hoarding by corporations (after that being sweet tax break that was to create jobs)

The song and dance is getting rather old.


----------



## BigDL

Poor old tired Harper Government™ grasping around to seem relevant. 

First high valued dollar "good." 

Must give money to people of Syria * no...wait... must not give* millions to aid Syrian people groups connected to Khadrs.

Khadres "evil bad."

Extra! EXTRA! Baird admits a mistake



CBCNews said:


> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has reversed a decision to give $2 million to a Syrian-Canadian group for medical supplies...
> 
> ...Baird announced over the weekend that a group called Canadian Relief for Syria would be given the money to provide medical care to people caught up in the ongoing conflict in the Middle Eastern country.
> 
> ...Questions were also raised about Canadian Relief for Syria because of its connection to another charity called Human Concern International. HCI has faced controversy in the past over its links to the father of Guantanamo detainee Omar Khadr, Ahmed Said Khadr, who helped finance al-Qaeda when he was HCI's representative in Pakistan and was later killed in a gun battle. HCI has never been charged with any terrorist activities, and the organization says it now has better checks on its operations.


Tick...tick...tick... October 2015 approaches. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Tick...tick...tick... October 2015 approaches. :lmao:


And what are the NDP and Liberals doing to prepare for it? Twiddling their thumbs?


----------



## groovetube

yeah the ndp certainly has seemed like they've twiddled their thumbs!! :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Military meal program cut will cause 'undue hardship' - New Brunswick - CBC News

I have heard of balancing the books on the backs of certain groups, but from their stomachs? And for our military men and women???


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Military meal program cut will cause 'undue hardship' - New Brunswick - CBC News
> 
> I have heard of balancing the books on the backs of certain groups, but from their stomachs? And for our military men and women???


Even though I quite vociferously oppose using the military to advance the cause of our various corporate masters, I firmly believe our military men deserve far better treatment than this.

However this does clearly establish that the Harper Gang's claimed support of the military is entirely for the benefit of their corporate masters. Don't spend money feeding the troops when it is better diverted to Boeing or...... .


----------



## jimbotelecom

Amusing story of a kayaker running into a private CON party on the credit river in Toronto.

How a canoeist got frisked for stumbling into Harper?s picnic - The Globe and Mail

And another breaking story on the credit river, this severing business is over the top lately. 

Severed head, foot found in Mississauga river - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Military meal program cut will cause 'undue hardship' - New Brunswick - CBC News
> 
> I have heard of balancing the books on the backs of certain groups, but from their stomachs? And for our military men and women???


The article is far from complete. It mentions program abuses, but does not elaborate. What abuses were occurring? 



> Mary Chamberlain, the executive vice-president of the Union of National Defence Employees, said she has been calling for changes to the imposed restrictions program. But these changes are not what she was anticipating.


What changes was she calling for?



> The defence department said it is looking at ways to help families who may now have trouble making ends meet.


What ways?


This article is typical of the sad state of news reporting. It's not ready to be published.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The article is far from complete. It mentions program abuses, but does not elaborate. What abuses were occurring?
> 
> 
> 
> What changes was she calling for?
> 
> 
> 
> What ways?
> 
> 
> This article is typical of the sad state of news reporting. It's not ready to be published.


I watched the reporting of this item on Global, CBC and CTV. The government spokesperson merely says that "there have been abuses of the system" but would not elaborate. I suggest you contact your MP to see if he/she might have an answer. I have done this with my MP. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Amusing story of a kayaker running into a private CON party on the credit river in Toronto.
> 
> How a canoeist got frisked for stumbling into Harper?s picnic - The Globe and Mail



Standing on guard for Stephen Harper



> ... But was it over-the-top to intercept someone unexpectedly entering the security blanket surrounding a Canadian prime minister?
> 
> Sorry, no. As the history of security breaches has shown, nutbars don’t always fit ethnic stereotypes or respect the boundaries of peaceful nations.
> 
> If they did, the prime minister of Sweden would not have been assassinated coming home from a movie in Stockholm...
> 
> ...assessing risk is best left to the pros as they create a balance between the need to keep the prime minister inside a safe perimeter while giving reasonable access to the public who elected him.
> 
> So when a canoeist with a bulky lifejacket strays unexpectedly into range when Harper’s exposed on a public stage, police have an obligation to investigate, no matter how innocuous the circumstances.
> 
> Canada has many more enemies on the world stage than during the pre-911, blue-helmet peacekeeper era when prime ministers could wave at tourists while having lunch on downtown Ottawa patios.
> 
> We’re a middle power in a world with wealthy enemies -- which makes our leaders a juicy target for the bad guys.
> 
> Every international tragedy triggered by a security breach ends with a long list of retrospective regrets at the oversights.
> 
> If reducing the chance of that happening in Canada entails a close look at any canoeists, cyclists or pedestrians straying inside the security bubble, well, prepare to be frisked.


----------



## Dr.G.

Well, screature, we do sing "We stand on guard for thee ............." I guess the "thee" stands for PM Harper, since we are "The Harper Government of Canada", at least according to the letterheads on certain government correspondence. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Well, screature, we do sing "We stand on guard for thee ............." I guess the "thee" stands for PM Harper, since we are "The Harper Government of Canada", at least according to the letterheads on certain government correspondence. Paix, mon ami.


The point is Dr.G. it is right and appropriate to protect the PM even the ones you don't like.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The point is Dr.G. it is right and appropriate to protect the PM even the ones you don't like.


I don't see how this is even a story, except to say that the security was effective. A frisked canoer is hardly newsworthy.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I don't see how this is even a story, except to say that the security was effective. A frisked canoer is hardly newsworthy.


If it can be used to somehow try and discredit the government it will be spun to be newsworthy, that is the nature of "journalism" these days.


----------



## eMacMan

Perhaps if the PM has created an air of paranoia and is so terrified of having the bubble penetrated, then he perhaps should limit his activities to non-public areas so as to not inconvenience the public.

I do agree that it would have been devastating if that canoeist had secreted a protest sign behind that life jacket and the PM had come face to face with public opinion.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

MacKinnon has a decent way with a drawing, but he's one of the lousiest writers I've seen.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


You do realize the parochial nature of the image portrayed by the writer don't you? Seems like the author is stuck in the 1800s or early 1900s. 

For someone who seems to consider himself a "progressive" the portrayal is about as regressive as one can get and yet you find it "funny" rather than insulting and demeaning.... seems so long as it fits within your "agenda" it doesn't matter how offensive and anachronistic the imagery.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> For someone who seems to consider himself a "progressive" the portrayal is about as regressive as one can get and yet you find it "funny" rather than insulting and demeaning.... seems so long as it fits within your "agenda" it doesn't matter how offensive and anachronistic the imagery.


Progressivism is essentially based on a prejudice which posits that only the elite can "make whole" groups composed of various races and cultures who are deemed to be incapable of negotiating this tough old world on their own.


----------



## eMacMan

From a recent CP press release.

Certainly confirms my previous opinion about Vic. As the hero of the Neo-Cons Colin Powell might say, in a rare moment of honesty: "Every one knows that what someone being tortured tells his torturer is; word for word, exactly what the torturer tells him to say." 

IOW information obtained via torture is extremely unlikely to have any accuracy or value at all.

Altogether now, click those heels together, give the straight arm salute and shout: "All hail"



> OTTAWA - The Conservative government has quietly given Canada's national police force and the federal border agency the authority to use and share information that was likely extracted through torture.
> 
> Newly disclosed records show Public Safety Minister Vic Toews issued the directives to the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency shortly after giving similar orders to Canada's spy service.
> 
> The government directives state that protection of life and property are the chief considerations when deciding on the use of information that may have been derived from torture.


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting results coming out of Quebec. Let's go Liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We shall see.


----------



## jimbotelecom

PQ minority. An electorate that could not completely hold its nose and accept that Mafia money was donated to the Liberals. The PQ has governed before and has competent managers to implement its agenda. Charest put up a good fight and did much better than I expected. Even so he lost his seat in a safe Liberal enclave. It will be interesting to see how the dip sticks (pun intended) in Ottawa react as per this Globe editorial -
Over to you, Mr. Harper, after PQ victory in Quebec election - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

Why should the feds react at all? Simply allow them to take on those powers the federal government wishes to return to all provinces--and not others.


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> An electorate that could not completely hold its nose and accept that Mafia money was donated to the Liberals.


And your proof of this statement is?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Some amazing TV from Montreal happening. Marois was hooked off the stage by police security during her speech. CBC video closed in on a man being subdued outside the PQ victory rally, a long gun and a hand gun were being looked at by police. Police everywhere and a fire in the rear of the alley at the PQ victory rally. Incredible TV from the CBC.

Bravo CBC TV!


----------



## Dr.G.

Well, at least a PQ minority win will find the new premier unlikely to call a quick referendum call. We shall see. The vote was actually closer than I expected, in that the popular vote could barely have been closer, with the Liberals losing to the PQ by less than a single per cent. The Coalition Avenir Québec did not do as well as the polls were predicting.


----------



## jimbotelecom

The killer is 62-year-old Richard Henry Bain from Mont Tremblant. He is the owner of a hunting and fishing lodge in the mountains north of Montreal. He is a Celine Dion fan.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Fantastic results last night in Ontario where the NDP took Kitchener Waterloo away from the CONS, preventing the Liberals from getting a majority! I'm a fan of minority governments which are tough to orchestrate without proportional representation. Nonetheless the minority outcomes in Quebec and Ontario give me cause for hope for better government.


----------



## groovetube

I agree. I bet a lot of people are thinking the same thing for Ottawa as well. The buyer's remorse must be in full swing by now.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I'm patiently waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on the Etobicoke riding so that the voters get the chance to boot the CON, Ted Opitz, out of office.

Then we'll hear about the robocall investigation.

Two items in a long list that spell trouble for the dipsticks.


----------



## groovetube

Harper names five new senators to the Red Chamber | CTVNews


bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat


----------



## CubaMark

*So... they're actually going ahead with this. I predict diplomatic conflict in our future...*

*Religious freedom office nearly ready for debut*



> The federal government's long-awaited Office of Religious Freedom will be unveiled soon, officials say, after months of delays caused by difficulty in finding the right person to head the office.





> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has had a hard time finding someone to fill the role of ambassador to head up the office. Two people who were approached ultimately turned the post down for logistical and personal reasons.





> some experts warn the office could fall prey to accusations of bias, as did its prototype, the U.S. Office of International Religious Freedom in Washington D.C.





> Created in the 1990s, the U.S. office has been criticized from several quarters, including from within the U.S. State Department, for being primarily dedicated to protecting and promoting Christianity overseas.


(CBC)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *So... they're actually going ahead with this. I predict diplomatic conflict in our future...*
> 
> *Religious freedom office nearly ready for debut*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


Since you are quoting selectively to fit within your proclivities lets look at another selective sampling:



> *Arvind Sharma, a Canadian scholar of religion, has been carefully monitoring the government's plans, and says the idea presents a great opportunity for Canada on the world stage*.





> Sharma got the opportunity to share his concerns in a consultation with some of the office's new staff in Ottawa this summer, and last spring one of Baird's representatives travelled to Montreal and met with him.
> 
> *Sharma said the officials were "very receptive" to his perspective on the office and to his advice that the office should go beyond a minimalist definition of religious freedom as the freedom to practise any faith.
> 
> *He believes it should also promote a greater understanding of world religion through education, in order to expand the options available to people.
> 
> *But he's not sure if those ideas will translate into policy.*


So time will tell.. yet your post was a forewarning of troubled times ahead... at least that is my reading of the quotes you chose to choose and your direct statement.

I guess the glass is always half empty for you... must be a hard way to live one's life.

You seem to be always looking for the worst in this government whether it exists or not... not very "scholarly" IMO... seems more partisan and purely subjective based on personal proclivities as far as I can see...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You seem to be always looking for the worst in this government whether it exists or not... not very "scholarly" IMO... seems more partisan and purely subjective based on personal proclivities as far as I can see...


I wonder how many adult diapers some people go through when they read the news...


----------



## CubaMark

Geez, no need to get nasty, dude. Seriously.

Sharma's opinions do not bear on mine... which is that the creation of a specific office to promote religious freedom will prove to be a serious policy misstep. The priority of protection of human rights - religious freedom included - already exists in foreign affairs policy. I'm not alone in my concerns, though you seem intent to place me above all other critics.

And as for my opinions being subjective... when ehMax becomes a peer-reviewed academic forum, I will adhere to more rigorous standards. Until that time, I believe I'm free to rant all I want. Certainly it's not a freedom denied to others in here...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Geez, no need to get *nasty*, dude. Seriously.
> 
> Sharma's opinions do not bear on mine... which is that *the creation of a specific office to promote religious freedom will prove* to be a serious policy misstep. The priority of protection of human rights - religious freedom included - already exists in foreign affairs policy. I'm not alone in my concerns, though you seem intent to place me above all other critics.
> 
> And as for my opinions being subjective... when ehMax becomes a peer-reviewed academic forum, I will adhere to more rigorous standards. Until that time, I believe I'm free to rant all I want. Certainly it's not a freedom denied to others in here...


What thin skin.. nasty? Really?? I mean SERIOUSLY.

Where is your "proof"??? How can you *prove* the future? A serious lapse of logic. Seriously! 
You may not be alone in your concerns but you have never stated any other's concerns before this have you..? Not here at least... 

Have concerns by all means it is your right and obligation but don't present such a one sided opinion... at least if you consider yourself to be a scholar... which is what you have so proudly posted yourself to be here.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Have concerns by all means it is your right and obligation but don't present such a one sided opinion... at least if you consider yourself to be a scholar... which is what you have so proudly posted yourself to be here.


*snicker* SORRY man, I didn't realize YOU made the rules around here....


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *snicker* SORRY man, I didn't realize YOU made the rules around here....


I don't make the rules. I'm just commenting on your comments as a self proclaimed scholar that don't seem very scholarly to me... 

So where do the twains meet...? 

You start a thread boasting about your scholarly achievement and then when you are called out on a post that is less than scholarly, somehow that is an affront to you... how does that work exactly...?

Oh I know! It is called eating your cake and having it to have it too...


----------



## groovetube

No one ever presented 'one sided opinions' here ever before. *snicker*

Sorry I had to get in on all the snickering going on. Carry on.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Snicker. Snicker. Snicker.

Dipstick supporters!


----------



## i-rui

glad to see conservatives are in favour of expanding government!

....oh wait... doesn't that collide with one of the main mantras of their ideology?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> glad to see conservatives are in favour of expanding government!
> 
> ....oh wait... doesn't that collide with one of the main mantras of their ideology?


I'm not in favour of it--but the earlier post was FUD. May as well argue about reality instead of imagination.


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *snicker* SORRY man, I didn't realize YOU made the rules around here....


:clap:

CM you have been straightened out by just one of the few on the beat here, swinging a billy putting the run to left leaning hang-a-bouts on the corner.

Please don't provide views unless said view is in conformity the Harper Government™ leader$h!ft. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> glad to see conservatives are in favour of expanding government!
> 
> ....oh wait... doesn't that collide with one of the main mantras of their ideology?


The new department is merely, a figment of your imagination.

Se how that works?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Snicker. Snicker. Snicker.
> 
> *Dipstick* supporters!


Uhhm... maybe take a break why don't you.... maybe a cup of tea or a sedative or two or three...


----------



## ehMax

jimbotelecom said:


> Snicker. Snicker. Snicker.
> 
> Dipstick supporters!


jimbotelecom, let's keep these types of comments off the forums please.


----------



## groovetube

did someone hit the report button?

Actually I think Jimbos comment was merely a sarcastic imitation of what the right wing supporters call ndp supporters (the term dippers, or, dipsticks).

Anyway suddenly things got weird.


----------



## groovetube

to move things a bit more on track, here's a news bit:
Toews nixes Wiccan priest for B.C. prisoners | CTVNews

Seems those religious freedoms don't extend to all.


----------



## CubaMark

*By cutting ties with Iran, we just shot ourself in the foot*



> ....Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird on Friday when he tried to explain the extraordinary step he had just taken of cutting diplomatic relations with Iran, closing Canada’s embassy in Tehran and expelling Iran’s diplomatic staff from Ottawa.
> 
> .... Mr. Baird said, at some length, that Canada simply does not like Iran.





> Closing an embassy is rarely done even in moments of hostility. By its very nature, it prevents the possibility of further relations with the country in question, good or bad, influential or ineffective. Messages of protest, off-record moves to quell an eruption, clandestine efforts to build relations with reformists within the regime – all of these options are no longer possible. Once you’ve pulled the plug, you’re out of the game.





> Sanctions have the power to sway that vote. So do diplomatic acts. Canada has now abandoned such possibilities.
> 
> “This is the first time in decades that a Canadian prime minister, Liberal or Conservative, appears to be advocating approaches that reduce diplomatic opportunities for peace during an international crisis,”


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *By cutting ties with Iran, we just shot ourself in the foot*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


I guess your idea of a better Canada is like a toothless dog... i.e. it's bark is much worse than it's bite...

Personally having dealt with many a bully in my lifetime sometimes it is better to stand up and tell them to go f**k themselves... sometimes certain people no longer warrant or deserve talking to based on their actions... I guess you have been blessed by not having experienced such people but trust me they exist and no "diplomacy" will change them or their ideas.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> I guess your idea of a better Canada is like a toothless dog... i.e. it's bark is much worse than it's bite...
> 
> Personally having dealt with many a bully in my lifetime sometimes it is better to stand up and tell them to go f**k themselves... sometimes certain people no longer warrant or deserve talking to based on their actions... I guess you have been blessed by not having experienced such people but trust me they exist and no "diplomacy" will change them or their ideas.


How is letting Israel and/or the USA determine our foreign policy standing up to bullies???? Remember Iran has attacked no one in a very long time, whereas the US and Israel can't seem to stop. (Iraq attacked Iran with Sadam obeying his foreign puppet masters)

Anyways feels like the PM has gotten the word that the fix is in South of the Border. Romney will win by hook or by crook, and the US will be spiraling even further into debt by going to war with Iran. Sadly the die seems to be cast and Harper shall inflict similar damage on the Canadian Treasury.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> How is letting Israel and/or the USA determine our foreign policy standing up to bullies???? Remember Iran has attacked no one in a very long time, whereas the US and Israel can't seem to stop. (Iraq attacked Iran with Sadam obeying his foreign puppet masters)
> 
> Anyways feels like the PM has gotten the word that the fix is in South of the Border. Romney will win by hook or by crook, and the US will be spiraling even further into debt by going to war with Iran. Sadly the die seems to be cast and Harper shall inflict similar damage on the Canadian Treasury.


Romney is brokering this deal? Do tell how you got this inside info!


----------



## groovetube

I don't know that it would take a rocket scientist to see that strong possibility.

Iran is being dangled in front of the US. They may not be able to beat the US militarily, but bankrupting the country might easy when it's run by a bunch of yahoos with guns.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I don't know that it would take a rocket scientist to see that strong possibility.
> 
> Iran is being dangled in front of the US. They may not be able to beat the US militarily, but bankrupting the country might easy when it's run by a bunch of yahoos with guns.


Perhaps a rugged individualist who is a rocket surgeon, may just happen to know it all.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## groovetube

Wasn't the Iranian embassy the one in Ottawa that had the armed cops out front? When I lived in Ottawa it was odd to see one building with cops armed with automatic weapons posted out front.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *How is letting Israel and/or the USA determine our foreign policy standing up to bullies???? *Remember Iran has attacked no one in a very long time, whereas the US and Israel can't seem to stop. (Iraq attacked Iran with Sadam obeying his foreign puppet masters)
> 
> Anyways feels like the PM has gotten the word that the fix is in South of the Border. Romney will win by hook or by crook, and the US will be spiraling even further into debt by going to war with Iran. Sadly the die seems to be cast and Harper shall inflict similar damage on the Canadian Treasury.


Israel and the US *do not* set our foreign policy. 

That you would choose to defend a totalitarian state whose policy is the Holocaust never happened, Israel has no right to exist and supports the Al-Assad regime in Syria is somewhat shocking but not really unexpected considering your well known completely anti-Israel stance. The Iranian regime wants nukes so they can blast Israel off of the planet... and you choose to defend them over a democratic nation??? Rather despicable actually.


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> Canada has many citizens who came form from Iran that are really good people, including my woman and many friends. There are also many criminals from that country (and others) who are here on false pretenses that should not be.
> 
> The Canadian Embassy had little or no ability to do anything for Canadians needing help over there. The embassy staff complained about being followed by Iranian secret police whenever they left the embassy.
> 
> The Iranian Embassy in Canada was recruiting Iranian Canadians who had family back in Iran to do who knows what exactly. They reported that they were told to cooperate or their families back in Iran wold be in great danger.
> 
> The way things are going I will probably not spending this winter over there. The government has advised all Canadians not to go there.
> 
> Added: Most Iranians living in Canada are very happy that Canada has finally kicked the Iranian Embassy out.


We often disagree, but right on MCB!


----------



## i-rui

how is shutting down our embassy "standing up to bullies"?

I just don't see the connection. I don't think Iran really cares either way. And we've lost an important communication tool for any canadians living in Iran, or who have loved ones in Iran.

Wasn't there a few Canadians sentenced to death in Iran? So by shutting down our embassy haven't we shut down all lines of hope of stopping those sentences?

I'll always chose some diplomacy (even if it appears to be going nowhere) over no diplomacy.


----------



## CubaMark

i-rui said:


> how is shutting down our embassy "standing up to bullies"?
> .....
> I'll always chose some diplomacy (even if it appears to be going nowhere) over no diplomacy.


This is precisely Saunders' point. If Harper/Baird are thinking "that'll show 'em!" then they're as inept at international diplomacy as they are military procurement procedures.

Closing the embassy is not a smart move.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> how is shutting down our embassy "standing up to bullies"?
> 
> I just don't see the connection. I don't think Iran really cares either way. And we've lost an important communication tool for any canadians living in Iran, or who have loved ones in Iran.
> 
> Wasn't there a few Canadians sentenced to death in Iran? So by shutting down our embassy haven't we shut down all lines of hope of stopping those sentences?
> 
> I'll always chose some diplomacy (even if it appears to be going nowhere) over no diplomacy.


Effectively this act on the part of the Government is to get as many Canadians out of Iran before the s**t hits the fan...

Sorry if you can't see that it but the writing is obviously on the wall at least as far as Canada is concerned and our government is acting swiftly to get our nationals out... The actions of the Canadian government made that clear for any other government that isn't paying attention...

Diplomats are not politicians and are not as plugged into the policies of their government (regardless of what nation we are talking about) as you seem to think...

Cripes have you watched the "Killing Fields"?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Diplomats are not politicians and are not as plugged into the policies of their government (regardless of what nation we are talking about) as you seem to think...


That's utter nonsense. I have family members posted abroad in various government departments, and even though they aren't diplomats, even they are quite well versed in the policies of our government.


----------



## MacDoc

Quite the battle brewing
Unprecedented opposition may make British Columbia pipeline a non-starter - thestar.com


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> Quite the battle brewing
> Unprecedented opposition may make British Columbia pipeline a non-starter - thestar.com


Yeah, I just spent the last month in BC, and this was a major topic of discussion. Everyone I talked to was strongly opposed to it. But these were people who were biased because they have deep knowledge of the ecology, engineering, economics and sociology of the region. And reality has a well-known left-wing bias, so take that with a grain of salt


----------



## BigDL

Could the Northern Gateway Pipeline be the item that makes, the Harper Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government™, the most reviled government since Mulroney's? ...and the last for quite some time?

Poor tired old HSSMCG™.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I guess your idea of a better Canada is like a toothless dog... i.e. it's bark is much worse than it's bite...
> 
> Personally having dealt with many a bully in my lifetime sometimes it is better to stand up and tell them to go f**k themselves... sometimes certain people no longer warrant or deserve talking to based on their actions... I guess you have been blessed by not having experienced such people but trust me they exist and no "diplomacy" will change them or their ideas.


hmmm. Apparently you -can- say f**k getting around the swear filters. But 'dipstick' gets reported.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> That's utter nonsense. I have family members posted abroad in various government departments, and even though they aren't diplomats, even they are quite well versed in the policies of our government.


Well said and absolutely right.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Allen Gregg wakes up! Here's Gregg's speech at Carleton U last week. It's hot and getting a lot of attention.
Remember this is Brian "stuff my pockets with cash" Mulroney's pollster who parted ways with the PC's in '93. He was there when the CON's emphasized Chretien's physical disfigurement in a negative ad...they were reduced to 2 seats following 2 "take door number 3 for the cash" majorities.
Allan Gregg Speech Slams Tories' Orwellian 'Assault On Reason'

Vivre Gregg libre! 

1984 anyone?


----------



## Macfury

That's hilarious! Orwell was warning the populace against going too far to the left.


----------



## groovetube

going too far either side isn't a good thing.


----------



## bryanc

jimbotelecom said:


> Allen Gregg wakes up! Here's Gregg's speech at Carleton U last week. It's hot and getting a lot of attention.


Nice speech. Well argued, and bolstered with a lot of verifiable facts.

I liked this bit regarding the budget particularly:


Allan Gregg said:


> This was no random act of downsizing, but a deliberate attempt to obliterate certain activities that were previously viewed as a legitimate part of government decision-making – namely, using research, science and evidence as the basis to make policy decisions. It also amounted to an attempt to eliminate anyone who might use science, facts and evidence to challenge government policies.
> 
> ...
> 
> But before we make those decisions, let’s look at all the facts; have a fulsome and rational debate; and make a reasoned decision of what is in the best interests of all the parties involved. For voters to determine whether these are measures they support or oppose requires that they know what is at stake and what the government is actually doing. Moreover, for the rule of law to work, the public must have respect for the law. By obfuscating the true purpose of laws under the gobbledy-**** of double speak, governments are admitting that their intentions probably lack both support and respect. Again, the lesson here is Orwellian … in the same way that reason requires consciousness, tyranny demands ignorance.


I do genuinely believe that Harper is pursuing an agenda that is contrary to the interests of most Canadians, and doing so through the use of the utmost political skill and magician-like misdirection. But he's relying on our ignorance and apathy; historically a pretty safe bet. I just hope enough of us begin to suspect we're being played and start paying attention.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> That's hilarious! Orwell was warning the populace against going too far to the left.


That's hilarious - your interpretation of Orwell's warning! A knee slapper!


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Effectively this act on the part of the Government is to get as many Canadians out of Iran before the s**t hits the fan...


fair enough, but i would object to framing it as "standing up to bullies". also if the idea is to "get as many canadians out" then they should have first issued the travel advisory to the country, waited a few weeks (or months) and then pulled the plug on the embassy. Instead they did both actions at the same time which doesn't help anyone who could still be stranded in the country or have plans that will take them there.

i do lament that the days of Canada as a peace maker seem to be long gone now under Harper. not that we were ever a major player, but we did use to have a voice in the process through diplomacy.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> That's hilarious - your interpretation of Orwell's warning! A knee slapper!


Poor Orwell suffered from the delusion that one could "enjoy" collectivism without totalitarianism.

The speech was pretty funny stuff, though. Reads like it was composed in a yurt a few years ago when the Occupy Wall Street movement still existed.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Delay in Harper aides hearing - maybe we will hear on the etobicoke election scamming from the supreme court before this hearing in October -

Ex-Harper aide's influence-peddling case put off to Oct. 1 - Canada - CBC News


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Well said and absolutely right.


Nope just plain wrong. Diplomats are often among the last to know of such policy moves by the government... Cabinet and Privy Council are the ones in the know... diplomats get to know what they know on a need to know basis and that means they are often among the last to know from the government... 

Cripes even Government back benchers often find out about public policy decisions through the the media before they hear it in Caucus meetings. 

To think otherwise simply displays a lack of understanding/ignorance of the hierarchy of government and its relationship to the diplomatic corps.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> fair enough, but i would object to framing it as "standing up to bullies". also if the idea is to "get as many canadians out" then they should have first issued the travel advisory to the country, waited a few weeks (or months) and then pulled the plug on the embassy. Instead they did both actions at the same time which doesn't help anyone who could still be stranded in the country or have plans that will take them there.
> 
> *i do lament that the days of Canada as a peace maker* seem to be long gone now under Harper. not that we were ever a major player, but we did use to have a voice in the process through diplomacy.


What a myth... it effectively happened once (Suez) and ever since has been a practice in futility and wasted dollars.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Nope just plain wrong. Diplomats are often among the last to know of such policy moves by the government... Cabinet and Privy Council are the ones in the know... diplomats get to know what they know on a need to know basis and that means they are often among the last to know from the government...
> 
> Cripes even Government back benchers often find out about public policy decisions through the the media before they hear it in Caucus meetings.
> 
> To think otherwise simply displays a lack of understanding/ignorance of the hierarchy of government and its relationship to the diplomatic corps.


You mean last to officially know. I'll concede that you're probably right. Unofficially Dips are in the know. Denying this displays ignorance.


----------



## jimbotelecom

An Allan Gregg Q & A following his controversial remarks last week at Carleton U where he described the Harper government as Orwellian:
Q and A with Allan Gregg « Pundits' Guide to Canadian Federal Elections


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> You mean last to officially know. I'll concede that you're probably right. *Unofficially Dips are in the know. Denying this displays ignorance.*


Who exactly do you know in the diplomatic corps? I know a few and they tell me all the time that they are often the last to know.

They may have an inkling/good reason to believe a certain scenario because they aren't where they are by begin stupid... but there is a vast difference between being *informed* and basing your "sense" of knowledge on speculation and/or deductive reasoning.

So if you mean by "Unofficially Dips are in the know.", that they can figure things out and see the writing on the wall I completely agree with you... if you mean they have privy to some top secret information then I completely disagree with you.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> An Allan Gregg Q & A following his controversial remarks last week at Carleton U where he described the Harper government as Orwellian:
> Q and A with Allan Gregg « Pundits' Guide to Canadian Federal Elections


Read it before you posed the link... filled with many a factual error but hey... what ever you can get people to believe... you get paid for it.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Well said and absolutely right.


He'll continue to argue it o the ground. I happen to know he's talking through his hat.


----------



## SINC

Pointing fingers at an individual with direct criticism hasn't been seen here in quite some time. I thought we were done with that type of 'utter nonsense'. Issues, not personalities is what matters. Either that or some just don't get it.


----------



## groovetube

Oh come now, a few others have been name calling and going past swear filters for some time now, I have even pointed this out. The very ones who pontificate about civility even!

Somehow though, that never seems to get reported now, does it?



> To think otherwise simply displays a lack of understanding/ignorance of...





> He's talking through his hat...


what's the difference? You simply don't like me? What are you contributing other than thread copping?


----------



## SINC

Believe it or not, I have never reported you for anything. That was just an observation. Do with it what you think you should. I am out of it.


----------



## groovetube

I don't believe that actually.

But my suggestion is, instead of merely lurking in this thread to thread cop those whom you dislike and derailing things, try contributing to the thread topic in a positive way. I'll be sure to try and not fall into responding to other's negative comments so I don't raise your ire once again.


----------



## CubaMark

*Why Canada severed relations with Iran*



> Ken Taylor, who was Canada's ambassador in Iran during the U.S. hostage crisis that began in 1979, told CBC's Hannah Thibedeau he doesn't agree with Canada's decision to suspend diplomatic relations.
> 
> "Given Canada's status as an international player, there's great value to having someone there on the ground who can interpret what is going on, to the extent that there are challenges to doing that properly," he said.
> 
> Mundy said that now, "We no longer have the ability to communicate directly, government to government, with the Iranian government."
> 
> Stein says, "The major impact will be on the Iranian diaspora in Canada, which will have a lot more difficulty getting visas to go home for visits."
> 
> *Canadians imprisoned in Iran*
> 
> Another significant impact to Mundy is that "we no longer have Canadian diplomats on the ground to protect the interests of Canadian citizens" in Iran.
> 
> "There are a lot of Canadian citizens in Iran, some of whom are in jail, and some of whom depend upon the Canadian diplomats to make representations on their behalf."


(CBC)


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> What a myth... it effectively happened once (Suez) and ever since has been *a practice in futility and wasted dollars*.


"futility and wasted dollars"?? really?

sounds more like the Afghan Mission than our role as PeaceKeepers. I'm sure that was money & manpower better spent.


----------



## groovetube

DND to pay $100 million to private firm to replace laid-off workers

Harpernomics at work?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> DND to pay $100 million to private firm to replace laid-off workers
> 
> Harpernomics at work?


This makes no sense ............


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> DND to pay $100 million to private firm to replace laid-off workers
> 
> Harpernomics at work?





Dr.G. said:


> This makes no sense ............


It makes perfect sense in the world of a Harper Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government™, the slight of had is to pretend to save money when your real goal as HSSMCG™ is privatizing government services. 

Expenses be damned, deficits be damned, ideology must prevail, gotta' satisfy a rugged individualist, the base must be placated. Tap, tap, tap, nails into the coffin.

Tick, Tick, Tick, time for the tired old HSSMCG™ is running out. :clap:


----------



## MacDoc

> *HOT TOPIC: STEPHEN HARPER*
> 
> The Appeal of Conscience Foundation has chosen Stephen Harper as its World Statesman of the Year for 2012. The award is...
> 25%
> 633
> votes
> An honour
> 
> 12%
> 304
> votes
> A bit of a surprise
> 
> 64%
> 1640
> votes
> Laughable
> 
> Harper, honoured in N.Y. as statesman of the year, aims to snub UN


Home - The Globe and Mail

fancy that....64% laughable -


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *"futility and wasted dollars"?? really?*
> 
> sounds more like the Afghan Mission than our role as PeaceKeepers. I'm sure that was money & manpower better spent.


Yes really name one other UN "peace keeping mission" that actually achieved any substantive results? And BTW the Libs took us into Afghanistan.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Yes really name one other UN "peace keeping mission" that actually achieved any substantive results? And BTW the Libs took us into Afghanistan.


Cyprus


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Cyprus


Yeah right a quagmire for over 40 years... a real success that is.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Yeah right a quagmire for over 40 years... a real success that is.


Indeed:


Paving the Road to Hell: The Failure of U.N. Peacekeeping | Foreign Affairs

FAILURE OF UN PLAN TO SOLVE CYPRUS PROBLEM ‘DEEPLY DISAPPOINTING’ SPECIAL ADVISER ALVARO DE SOTO TELLS SECURITY COUNCIL


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Home - The Globe and Mail


Congratulations, Stephen Harper--that's quite an honour for Canada!


----------



## groovetube

phew. After batting pretty much zip he finally gets a pat on the back?

Too bad the citizens of Canada don't think much of it.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> Too bad the citizens of Canada don't think much of it.


:lmao: yeah... did you read the comments at the end of the article? And I thought _I_ disliked Harper :yikes:


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> :lmao: yeah... did you read the comments at the end of the article? And I thought _I_ disliked Harper :yikes:


I stopped reading the comments on newspaper sites a long time ago because they are 90% of the time they are written by blowhards or diehards.... almost never any balanced factual input just partisan bickering.


----------



## groovetube

All except perhaps for the "diehards and blowhards" (really?) that praise Harper.

I guess everybody is a [insert nasty here] if you disagree with them.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I stopped reading the comments on newspaper sites a long time ago because they are 90% of the time written by blowhards or diehards.... almost never any balanced factual input just partisan bickering.


I suspect this is largely the work of unemployed activists--which is usually not a contradiction in terms.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> almost never any balanced factual input just partisan bickering.


I agree, but usually it's mindless bickering from two sides; it would appear that the partisan Harper supporters decided not to post anything in his defence, despite this being an article that would superficially seem to be complementary.

Certainly not particularly meaningful, but it caught my eye as being out of the ordinary.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I agree, but usually it's mindless bickering from two sides; it would appear that the partisan Harper supporters decided not to post anything in his defence, despite this being an article that would superficially seem to be complementary.
> 
> Certainly not particularly meaningful, but it caught my eye as being out of the ordinary.


True.

Just sniping such as 'diehard, blowhards', and, my favourite.... unemployed.

I can see why the unemployed would be particularly unhappy with spendhappy Harper.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> I can see why the unemployed would be particularly unhappy with spendhappy Harper.


Of course, but all the Harper supporters know that the unemployed aren't really Canadian citizens who's concerns are valid or need consideration. They're poor; so they barely qualify as human, let alone citizens who need good representation in Parliament


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Of course, but all the Harper supporters know that the unemployed aren't really Canadian citizens who's concerns are valid or need consideration. They're poor; so they barely qualify as human, let alone citizens who need good representation in Parliament


and, they're activists!!!!! (said with a long hissssss...  )


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## bryanc

*What's up with Harper and the Omnibus bills?*

He's got a majority; isn't he even going to pretend to respect democracy? He doesn't need to do this to get his agenda through parliament, but he has such contempt for the democratic process that he's putting everything in giant, undebatable omnibus bills.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> He's got a majority; isn't he even going to pretend to respect democracy? He doesn't need to do this to get his agenda through parliament, but he has such contempt for the democratic process that he's putting everything in giant, undebatable omnibus bills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Sadly, all too true, bryanc. I never understood the rationale of an omnibus bill other than to ram through legislation that is lost in the multitude of parts of the bill ........ which is only found out later AFTER the bill has been passed. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> He's got a majority; isn't he even going to pretend to respect democracy? He doesn't need to do this to get his agenda through parliament, but he has such contempt for the democratic process that he's putting everything in giant, undebatable omnibus bills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Glad that someone posted this. Harper did state the obvious both eloquently and accurately. A shame he didn't put his words into practice and ban the Omnibus bills entirely. tptptptp


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Glad that someone posted this. Harper did state the obvious both eloquently and accurately. A shame he didn't put his words into practice and ban the Omnibus bills entirely. tptptptp


I am still waiting for him to reform or do away with the Senate, or to do something about MP pensions.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I am still waiting for him to reform or do away with the Senate, or to do something about MP pensions.


Rumour has it that MPs pensions may be brought down to Platinum standard in the Omnibus Bill. No word about the PMs pension which means it will probably be left untouched.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Rumour has it that MPs pensions may be brought down to Platinum standard in the Omnibus Bill. No word about the PMs pension which means it will probably be left untouched.


Well, there is only one PM and hundreds of MPs that get a very generous pension, on the taxpayers dime, at the rate of $24 for every $1 they contribute ............ and they can retire at age 55 after only serving six years. tptptptp


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Well, there is only one PM and hundreds of MPs that get a very generous pension, on the taxpayers dime, at the rate of $24 for every $1 they contribute ............ and they can retire at age 55 after only serving six years. tptptptp


You are right. After their term in Parliament they should have to serve another 10-20 in one of those fancy Privatized Prisons the PM wants to build.


----------



## groovetube

Always easier to set the pensions for the next upcoming MPs when it doesn't affect your own.

Win win.


----------



## BigDL

Well at least pension reform is different than the usual unholy trinity recycled from Mulroney's days. 

Usually the only words out of the HSSMCG™ is on FreeTrade, Privatization and De-Regulation. 

Speaking of Reform, I thought those rugged individualists were not going to take pensions at all. What happened to that grandiose idea?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Well at least pension reform is different than the usual unholy trinity recycled from Mulroney's days.
> 
> Usually the only words out of the HSSMCG™ is on FreeTrade, Privatization and De-Regulation.
> 
> Speaking of Reform, I thought those rugged individualists were not going to take pensions at all. What happened to that grandiose idea?


That'll be for the next batch of MPs.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Well at least pension reform is different than the usual unholy trinity recycled from Mulroney's days.
> 
> Usually the only words out of the HSSMCG™ is on FreeTrade, Privatization and De-Regulation.
> 
> Speaking of Reform, I thought those rugged individualists were not going to take pensions at all. What happened to that grandiose idea?


Two of them kept their promise not to except a pension ............... the rest changed their minds, I assume.


----------



## groovetube

remember when.... people we're all like 'dun worry! They're just gonna privatize some services not prisons!!!

Well yeah.
Feds studying private prisons as way to save money | CTV News


----------



## CubaMark

groovetube said:


> remember when.... people we're all like 'dun worry! They're just gonna privatize some services not prisons!!!


Gee, yeah, wonder who that could have been.... (1) (2) (3) (4) (5)


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Gee, yeah, wonder who that could have been.... (1) (2) (3) (4) (5)


oh but he is 'in the know'.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> remember when.... people we're all like 'dun worry! They're just gonna privatize some services not prisons!!!
> 
> Well yeah.
> Feds studying private prisons as way to save money | CTV News


No way the PM could pass this one up. Just too much money to be made for the parties rich buds.

One does not need a crystal ball to see the effects of this. A simple glance south of the border will do the trick. 

Not possible that this will save money as the guvment will still have to pay to house the prisoners. On top of that a lot of people that should not be in prison will end up there, as the Corporate Welfare Bums will in return for their investment expect the guvment to keep those new prisons full.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Not possible that this will save money as the guvment will still have to pay to house the prisoners. On top of that a lot of people that should not be in prison will end up there, as the Corporate Welfare Bums will in return for their investment expect the guvment to keep those new prisons full.


Where was it announced that this would happen? Or is this more FUD?


----------



## groovetube

nothing to see here! Just the government spending piles of cash to study something they want to do.

Just FUD.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> nothing to see here! Just the government spending piles of cash to study something they want to do.
> 
> Just FUD.


With the benefits to the corporate buddies at the expense of taxpayers already well documented South Of the Border.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> With the benefits to the corporate buddies at the expense of taxpayers already well documented South Of the Border.


Right. But where is the announcement that Canada is privatizing the operation of prisons?


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> With the benefits to the corporate buddies at the expense of taxpayers already well documented South Of the Border.


It's all FUD eMacman. Just because they're spending large on the studies doesn't mean they're actually serious in any way.

It's better to just wait until it happens before being allowed to say anything.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> It's all FUD eMacman. Just because they're spending large on the studies doesn't mean they're actually serious in any way.
> 
> It's better to just wait until it happens before being allowed to say anything.


Perhaps, however all the empirical evidence suggests that Privatizing prisons is great for corporate buddies and bad for taxpayers, prisoners and anyone who works in prisons. With that in mind the PM obviously needs a favorable study to justify repeating the Stateside blunders in order to siphon taxpayer dollars to his Coprorate Welfare Buds. Expense be damned these are the hard core Con supporters that will benefit the most.


----------



## groovetube

a conservative government that wants to privatize?

That -has- to be FUD


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> a conservative government that wants to privatize?
> 
> That -has- to be FUD


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I think a bunch of Cons claiming they have no intention of privatizing would be FUD.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *Right. But where is the announcement that Canada is privatizing the operation of prisons?*


Exactly and since when does a "study" necessarily equate policy change? All one can go with at any point in time is the information that is available. The posts I made were based on exactly the same information that everyone else had... seems some folks around here want to shoot the messenger...

So shoot me... but at this point in time there is no change in policy, just a "study". Seems some people here (wonder who that could be ) are so paranoid that a "study" equals policy change which in the end is FUD until it becomes reality, once it is policy then it is actually meaningful discourse, before then it is only so much speculation, conjecture, fear, uncertainty and doubt. Full stop.


----------



## groovetube

so we have to wait until there's a change in policy, aka privatizing of the prisons before we can say anything. 

check.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Exactly and since when does a "study" necessarily equate policy change? All one can go with at any point in time is the information that is available. The posts I made were based on exactly the same information that everyone else had... seems some folks around here want to shoot the messenger...
> 
> So shoot me... but at this point in time there is no change in policy, just a "study". Seems some people here (wonder who that could be ) are so paranoid that a "study" equals policy change which in the end is FUD until it becomes reality, once it is policy then it is actually meaningful discourse, before then it is only so much speculation, conjecture, fear, uncertainty and doubt. Full stop.


Any legitimate values clarification process requires all avenues to be examined, even so as to eliminate them. 

Then we have this damning statement:



> Public Safety Minister Vic Toews acknowledged he discussed the idea of private prisons with his British counterpart in a meeting in May, but said he ended up ruling it out....
> 
> I didn’t feel there was any benefit to going toward a privatization model, that is the private supervision of prisoners,” he said. *“We have no interest in going to a private model which would put the supervision of prisoners in private hands.”*


----------



## groovetube

and you believe him? :lmao:



> The Deloitte study comes as U.S. private prison firms have been lobbying a number of government departments in Ottawa for fresh opportunities.
> 
> Read more: Feds studying private prisons as way to save money | CTV News


----------



## eMacMan

So Canada's Government does know it's wrong. They have gone so far as to tell the Government of Eritrea it's wrong. Of course when the the IRS does it it is perfectly OK and Flahrety says naught.



> It seems that Canada has prevailed in its dispute against Eritrea.
> 
> Who or what is Eritrea you ask?
> 
> It's an underdeveloped African nation nestled between the borders of Ethiopia, Sudan and the Red Sea with a population of about 6 million people. Earlier this year, a United Nations report alleged that the nation's repressive dictatorship was using its Toronto consulate to bankroll its military through a 2 per cent diaspora tax on its expatriates in Canada.
> 
> According to the National Post, both the UN and the RCMP warned that those who refused to pay were "subjected to threats, intimidation and coercion."


For the record most of the money the IRS is collecting from US citizens and even non-citizens abroad is in the form of penalties for failing to file one form or another. In most cases there are zero taxes owing.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> So Canada's Government does know it's wrong. They have gone so far as to tell the Government of Eritrea it's wrong. Of course when the the IRS does it it is perfectly OK and Flahrety says naught.


Read it carefully. There are two issues vt work here:

1) taxes cannot be collected by _the consulate_.
2) collecting a military tax for Eritrea violates a UN military embargo.

I suspect a simple tax on dual citizens levied by the government of Eritrea would pass muster.


----------



## Sonal

Justin Trudeau to announce his Liberal leadership bid: reports - thestar.com


----------



## jimbotelecom

Sonal said:


> Justin Trudeau to announce his Liberal leadership bid: reports - thestar.com


I guess we will soon find out if he is tender and flakey or if there is any intellectual and political gravitas to him.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> I guess we will soon find out if he is tender and flakey or if there is any intellectual and political gravitas to him.


I suspect he's Crisco, but I want to see the Liberal Party revived, rather than eclipsed by and replaced by the NDP.


----------



## i-rui

so Rona Ambrose, who's the Status of Women Minister voted to reopen the debate about abortion.

let me repeat that. Rona Ambrose, who's the *Status of Women* Minister voted to reopen the debate about abortion.

incredible. brought to by the same government who has a science minister who's a creationist.

Harper government - oxymoronic since 2006.:clap:


----------



## SINC

So did 90 other MPs whose vote meant nothing to the outcome of the decision which defeated the motion. Most would say 'so what'. There are without doubt women out there who think differently and as minister responsible, perhaps she thought they should be afforded the opportunity to be heard. Your point being?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> so Rona Ambrose, who's the Status of Women Minister voted to reopen the debate about abortion.
> 
> let me repeat that. Rona Ambrose, who's the *Status of Women* Minister voted to reopen the debate about abortion.


Because no woman wants to see a Commons committee study a section of the Criminal Code that declares a child a human being when it emerges alive from the mother’s womb?

Give me a break.


----------



## partsguy

Apparently a few Liberals voted in favour of the motion also.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Your point being?


my point being that she's the minister on the status of women, and one would hope that she would represent the best interests of the majority of women in this country.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> my point being that she's the minister on the status of women, and one would hope that she would represent the best interests of the majority of women in this country.


So, she should disregard the desires of the minority as minister? Oh, that is brilliant! The title is the 'minister of the status of women'. That means ALL women, does it not? Your little tirade appears to fall short of conventional wisdom.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> so Rona Ambrose, who's the Status of Women Minister voted to reopen the debate about abortion.
> 
> let me repeat that. Rona Ambrose, who's the *Status of Women* Minister voted to reopen the debate about abortion.
> 
> incredible. brought to by the same government who has a science minister who's a creationist.
> 
> Harper government - oxymoronic since 2006.:clap:


Owwweee... my ears! Just goes to show how diverse opinion is on the subject...

This was a nothing PMM that the PM did not support and if it wasn't for conspiracy theorists, the media and the Opposition (included in the first mentioned group) it would have remained so...

It was never in any way binding it was only a Motion for a Committee and to be struck and a study to be created and yet I have seen it called a Bill and it means the government is breaking an election promise... blah, blah blah... All completely false.

Everyone in the Conservative Caucus knew this Motion would fail... even Woodworth knew it was going to fail... His objective and crime was to look at a law that everyone with half a brain knows is poorly written considering modern medical knowledge.

The law as it is written now is a fallacy and should be changed. Personally I believe that abortion is a matter between a woman and her doctor, but why should it be such a travesty to even debate the issue... Again this is a PMM without any binding consequence and the PM said he would vote against it and so if the Motion even received a majority of votes the PM could just go... "Meh... next."

If it weren't for the media, the Opposition and conspiracy theorists this Motion would have faded into obscurity without even being noticed without any consequence whatsoever.


----------



## i-rui

I agree that everyone knew that the PMM never had a chance at getting passed, but that doesn't mean it was meaningless.

To clarify i wouldn't have a problem with Rona Ambrose voting that way if she wasn't the Status of Women Minister. but she is. And that means she has certain responsibilities. Just as a wouldn't have a problem with Gary Goodyear being a creationist if he wasn't the minister of science.

It just goes to show how absolutely unqualified Harper's cabinets have been, and they've been incredibly irresponsible in not vetting these characters so that they don't run counter to what their position signifies.

The vote happened at the end of the news day. I'm guessing we'll be hearing from a lot of pissed off women tomorrow.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> I agree that everyone knew that the PMM never had a chance at getting passed, but that doesn't mean it was meaningless.
> 
> To clarify i wouldn't have a problem with Rona Ambrose voting that way if she wasn't the Status of Women Minister. but she is. And that means she has certain responsibilities. Just as a wouldn't have a problem with Gary Goodyear being a creationist if he wasn't the minister of science.
> 
> It just goes to show how absolutely unqualified Harper's cabinets have been, and they've been incredibly irresponsible in not vetting these characters so that they don't run counter to what their position signifies.
> 
> The vote happened at the end of the news day. I'm guessing we'll be hearing from a lot of pissed off women tomorrow.


It was a PMM and they were free to vote their conscience... Do you really think that all women are pro-choice? Even Ministers have the right to vote their conscience on Private Members Business. You may wish it to be otherwise but it is simply a matter of factual procedure that allows it to be so...

You seem to want Ministers to be whipped more than backbenchers... no wait backbenchers should be whipped... no wait Harper is a control freak and doesn't allow either his Ministers or backbenchers to express their constituents or their own beliefs... It's all a plot... those bastards.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> You seem to want Ministers to be whipped more than backbenchers...


no, i'm saying ministers should be qualified for the portfolio they represent.

Clearly Rona Ambrose isn't.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> no, i'm saying ministers should be qualified for the portfolio they represent.
> 
> Clearly Rona Ambrose isn't.


Of course she is qualified. Laws and regulations may be clarified and clearly she believed this area of definition was worth studying--as do many other women across Canada.

In a summer poll, 62% of Canadian _women_ supported “the introduction of a law in Canada that places limits on when a woman can have an abortion during her pregnancy, such as during the last trimester.”

New poll shows most Canadians support abortion ? with some restrictions | News | National Post

Studying such limits is perfectly appropriate--as is not studying them if the vote goes the other way.

The same poll suggests that 65% of Canadians support the return of the death penalty. By your logic, the Minister of Justice would have to support capital punishment in order to qualify for the post.


----------



## i-rui

the PMM was a thinly veiled motion created to reopen the abortion debate. all but the most gullible see this.

Ambrose is already being lambasted on social media. this won't be something she can hide from behind silly political spin.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the PMM was a thinly veiled motion created to reopen the abortion debate. all but the most gullible see this.


Your opinion. I saw it as a move toward some clarity.



i-rui said:


> tAmbrose is already being lambasted on social media. this won't be something she can hide from behind silly political spin.


The wrath of Facebook? Twittered to death? Social network chatter doesn't change the requirements of the portfolio.


----------



## groovetube

The overwhelming majority o Canadians support choice. What can be more clearer than that?


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> The overwhelming majority o Canadians support choice. What can be more clearer than that?


A minority of Canadians don't, therefore the policy should change because these strong willed people want it. 

This minority knows what right for everyone, they elected the government didn't they?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *the PMM was a thinly veiled motion created to reopen the abortion debate. all but the most gullible see this.*
> 
> Ambrose is already being lambasted on social media. this won't be something she can hide from behind silly political spin.


Of course it was but it was raised by a Private Member and never hds a snowballs chance in hell of going anywhere and there was certainly no "hidden agenda" on the part of the Government, this is just typical Opposition and media spin. John Ivison gets it right in his article Kenney defies PM over abortion motion as leadership jockeying begins where he says:



> After NDP caucus Wednesday, Tom Mulcair repeated the tired old canard that the Woodworth motion is part of Mr. Harper’s “hidden agenda.” “Mr. Harper constantly says out of one side of his mouth that he doesn’t want to re-open the debate on abortion. But not only his backbenchers, there’s even a minister … saying he is going to vote in favour of this motion,” he said.
> 
> But if Mr. Harper ever had a hidden agenda, it was to keep covert from the social conservatives in his governing coalition that fact that he had no intention of ever legislating on their heartfelt issues.
> 
> As backbencher Brad Trost recently told Maclean’s, this neglect has caused some predictable disquiet. “Some socially conservative rank and file members of the Conservative Party have not been happy with [Harper] for quite some time,” he said.
> 
> For the bulk of the Conservative movement, power has been preferable to ideological purity...


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> A minority of Canadians don't, therefore the policy should change because these strong willed people want it.
> 
> This minority knows what right for everyone, they elected the government didn't they?


What does this have to do with Ambrose's vote of conscience on a private member's bill?


----------



## Rps

screature, we all knew this was going to the dumpster, but are you surprised that 1/3 voted in favour of the backdoor?


----------



## groovetube

We don't elect MPs to vote based on their agenda, we elect them to represent the citizens of Canada (their constituents specifically). 

As for the whitewashing of this whole affair, the level of support for this bill, particularly from key cabinet ministers, show that it is important to hold their feet to the fire (despite the furious hand waving that this is... nothing). Because if this sort of motion gets this kind of support within the government's ranks, and there wasn't the strong negative reaction from Canadians, and the media, they may well think they can get away with it.

This government has already shown a strong propensity for ramming through their own agenda while Canadians are essentially asleep at the wheel. It just so happens that this issue is particularly important to many Canadians, and this little escapade is a perfect example of why everyone needs to continue holding their feet to the fire.

Ambrose is supposed to be representing the status of women in Canada, not her own personal beliefs and that of a minority of people who wish to ram their beliefs down our throats.


----------



## Rps

groove, this is easier to say than do. We vote for the candidate who "appears" most like us in for the party most like us. To do other would be to never have an election as every point would have to be voted on by the constituents before you vote for the member. Really! What we need is to have a definite fixed election date and fixed terms, then you can have mid-terms similar to the U.S. to balance this out. We complain if we have lame duck leaders and we complain if we have dominant leaders .... which begs the question "is a majority government anti-democratic"? which I think is what you are really asking. Mid terms is the only way around this , that and an equal and elected Senate.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> screature, we all knew this was going to the dumpster, but *are you surprised that 1/3 voted in favour of the backdoor*?


Not sure what you mean by the back door... but no I am not surprised at all at the 1/3rd, except for the NDP who were Whipped, it was a free vote and Canadians are very divided on the issue of abortion so not surprised at all.


----------



## groovetube

Saying that Canadians are 'very divided' on this issue is very misleading. There is a small minority of people who are not pro-choice. This can hardly be characterized at Canadians being 'very divided'.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> groove, this is easier to say than do. We vote for the candidate who "appears" most like us in for the party most like us. To do other would be to never have an election as every point would have to be voted on by the constituents before you vote for the member. Really! What we need is to have a definite fixed election date and fixed terms, then you can have mid-terms similar to the U.S. to balance this out. We complain if we have lame duck leaders and we complain if we have dominant leaders .... which begs the question "is a majority government anti-democratic"? which I think is what you are really asking. Mid terms is the only way around this , that and an equal and elected Senate.


I know. Unfortunately. But I was responding to the idea that the MP was quite justified in voting with her beliefs.

And yes, I have felt for a long time (longer than this majority conservative government) that majority governments as they are in Canada are quite undemocratic. I don't want to see majority governments from either of the 3 parties in parliament. One of the few items that I actually agree with Harper on, is an elected senate.


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> . One of the few items that I actually agree with Harper on, is an elected senate.


Yes, but I don't see Harper looking for an equal and elected senate.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Yes, but I don't see Harper looking for an equal and elected senate.


no I don't either. I agree on the elected part.


----------



## Rps

Maybe groove we should have our provincial leaders establish a provincial senate, and the voted members could sit on the federal senate. Or just road test at the provincial level ..... say 1 senator from each county, but for each one taken from a county, you subtract one from the regular house to not inflate the member totals. Then have the deputy premier sit as leader of the provincial senate.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Yes, but I don't see Harper looking for an equal and elected senate.


Certainly elected. He failed to get enough senate voted for this last time.


----------



## groovetube

Tories quietly table Canada-China investment treaty - The Globe and Mail

I like how Harper supporters get all riled up whenever anyone mentions This conservative government's secret agenda.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> Maybe groove we should have our provincial leaders establish a provincial senate, and the voted members could sit on the federal senate. Or just road test at the provincial level ..... say 1 senator from each county, but for each one taken from a county, you subtract one from the regular house to not inflate the member totals. Then have the deputy premier sit as leader of the provincial senate.


We got rid of Provincial Senates and the Federal Senate should suffer the same fate. 

A Council of the Provinces or some such organization might provide some sort of balance for the Confederation.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> We got rid of Provincial Senates and the Federal Senate should suffer the same fate.
> 
> A Council of the Provinces or some such organization might provide some sort of balance for the Confederation.


What would be the difference between such a council and the federal senate?


----------



## screature

*Canada’s foreign investment review process: a layman’s guide*

Canada’s foreign investment review process: a layman’s guide is an excellent primer on the requirements for foreign take over bids a la the CNOOC- Nexen bid...

It is a bit of a lengthy read, but for anyone who actually wants to know what the process is and what the requirements actually are for foreign takeovers in Canada it is a must read... especially for Thomas Mulcair, Peter Julian and the entire NDP Caucus...

I can hardly wait for his upcoming article in which he "will look at the debate around the proposed CNOOC-Nexen transaction in an attempt to separate the rhetoric from reality."

Here is the Bio on iPolitics for Paul Boothe (the author)... his credentials are impressive to say the least...



> Paul Boothe is Professor and Director of the Lawrence National Centre for Policy and Management at the Richard Ivey School of Business, Western University. His work experience includes university research and teaching, acting as an independent consultant to Canadian and international organizations, and serving as a senior public servant in provincial and federal governments. At the provincial level, he served as Saskatchewan’s Deputy Minister of Finance and Secretary to Treasury Board. At the federal level, his appointments include Associate Deputy Minister of Finance and G7 Deputy, Senior Associate Deputy Minster of Industry and, most recently, Deputy Minister of the Environment. He retired from the federal public service in July 2012.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> We got rid of Provincial Senates and the Federal Senate should suffer the same fate.
> 
> A Council of the Provinces or some such organization might provide some sort of balance for the Confederation.


Provincial senates? Really? Seriously? Never heard of one in my nearly 70 years living here.

Gotta link to just one?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Provincial senates? Really? Seriously? Never heard of one in my nearly 70 years living here.
> 
> Gotta link to just one?


Maybe he means legislative councils?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Provincial senates? Really? Seriously? Never heard of one in my nearly 70 years living here.
> 
> Gotta link to just one?


I should imagine living in the newer parts of Canada good sense prevailed and didn't have them.

If you travel to Fredericton or Halifax you may inspect the "Upper Chambers" in the Legislative Assembly or Province House respectively. I have stood in both.

Here's a quick link.



Wikipedia said:


> Provincial-level
> Some Canadian provinces once possessed upper houses, but abolished them to adopt unicameral systems. Newfoundland had a Legislative Council prior to joining Canada, as did Ontario when it was Upper Canada. Manitoba had an upper chamber until it was abolished in 1876, New Brunswick's upper chamber was abolished in 1892, Prince Edward Island's upper chamber was abolished in 1893, Nova Scotia's upper chamber was abolished in 1928 and Québec's upper chamber was abolished in 1968.[6]


Upper House (Senate)


----------



## groovetube

Quebec had an upper house until 1968?

Learn something new everyday.


----------



## eMacMan

*Toews changes feet*

Vic Toews has done it again. Opened his mouth with the only apparent reason being to exchange feet.

We'll try to keep the mayor out of trouble by only posting the CBC link.

Non-Christian prison chaplains chopped by Ottawa - British Columbia - CBC News

Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist and Jewish prisoners are all impacted. Twenty part time chaplains out of a contingent of 180 full and part-timers will be axed, and roughly 10% of the prison population is non- Christian. IOW the ratio is as it should be. 

My guess is that any savings to the taxpayer will probably be less than the cost of Mr. Toews press conference making the announcement and the subsequent attempts to cover his sorry 455.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Vic Toews has done it again. Opened his mouth with the only apparent reason being to exchange feet.
> 
> We'll try to keep the mayor out of trouble by only posting the CBC link.
> 
> Non-Christian prison chaplains chopped by Ottawa - British Columbia - CBC News
> 
> Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist and Jewish prisoners are all impacted. Twenty part time chaplains out of a contingent of 180 full and part-timers will be axed, and roughly 10% of the prison population is non- Christian. IOW the ratio is as it should be.
> 
> My guess is that any savings to the taxpayer will probably be less than the cost of Mr. Toews press conference making the announcement and the subsequent attempts to cover his sorry 455.


Yeah this makes zero sense...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Yeah this makes zero sense...


Slow anti-party-in-power newsday?


----------



## i-rui

I think screature was agreeing with eMacMan, in that the policy to *only* use christian chaplans "makes zero sense".

when did Christianity become the "official" religion of Canada? I can understand the point that there may be some more obscure religions that the government can't accommodate, but to axe the other *major* world religions and keep Christianity is just plain bad policy.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *I think screature was agreeing with eMacMan*, in that the policy to *only* use christian chaplans "makes zero sense".
> 
> when did Christianity become the "official" religion of Canada? I can understand the point that there may be some more obscure religions that the government can't accommodate, but to axe the other *major* world religions and keep Christianity is just plain bad policy.


I was... for the savings that could be had this really makes no sense to me at all and flies in the face of the government having formed a religious freedoms office.

But because of that it also makes me suspicious that there has to be more to the story that the CBC is missing.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I was... for the savings that could be had this really makes no sense to me at all and flies in the face of the government having formed a religious freedoms office.
> 
> But because of that it also makes me suspicious that there has to be more to the story that the CBC is missing.


I don't understand why this service is being provided to people of any faith. Should be provided by volunteers of the various religions.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> I was... for the savings that could be had this really makes no sense to me at all and flies in the face of the government having formed a religious freedoms office.
> 
> But because of that it also makes me suspicious that there has to be more to the story that the CBC is missing.


Maybe Harper is planning on using some of the laid-off meat inspectors as a fill-in.


----------



## groovetube

yeah it's not like pastors (or whatever the specific religious title is...) need to eat or pay rent.


----------



## Sonal

From another source:
Federal government ends contracts with minority-faith chaplains | Canada | News | National Post

Full-time Chaplains are staying on and are expected to provide for all religious beliefs. It seems that the full-time chaplains are Christian.

All the part-time chaplains are not getting their contracts renewed. It seems that the part-time chaplains are non-Christian.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I don't understand why this service is being provided to people of any faith. Should be provided by volunteers of the various religions.


Well if that were the policy across the board then that would be fair. But the way it stated in the CBC article it is not.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well if that were the policy across the board then that would be fair. But the way it stated in the CBC article it is not.


I agree.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Maybe Harper is planning on using some of the laid-off meat inspectors as a fill-in.


What laid-off meat inspectors?


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> I think screature was agreeing with eMacMan, in that the policy to *only* use christian chaplans "makes zero sense".
> 
> when did Christianity become the "official" religion of Canada? I can understand the point that there may be some more obscure religions that the government can't accommodate, but to axe the other *major* world religions and keep Christianity is just plain bad policy.


This seems to have started when a handful of prisoners claiming to be Wican requested a Wican chaplain. Had the minister simply refused that request I don't really see the problem, but expecting Christian chaplains to fill in for Muslim, Jewish, Sikh or Buddhists is Jumping the Shark.

I am absolutely certain, that among the Conservative backbenchers, there are those who could do a much better job than Minister Toews. If not then whatever ones religion or lack thereof, we all need to pray for our nations future.


----------



## eMacMan

*Bigger than projected deficit*

So our Grand Illustrious Potentate of Finance Jim Flaherty has missed his forecast budget deficit by a Billion or so. Blames it on those dastardly Europeans.

Wake up call: If Mr. Flaherty was unable to discern back in June that Europe was in big trouble and things were going to get worse, he was pretty much alone in his exaggerated optimism.

That said out by a 1.5 Billion is not too shabby, but there are more than a few things Canada could have done or can do to further reduce the deficit from that 26 Billion dollar figure. We could get our buns out of Afghanistan, we should have avoided being sucked into Libya altogether. We also need to avoid getting involved in Syria, and we should tell BO and Israel if they want to similarly destroy Iran, Pakistan..., they are on their own.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> What laid-off meat inspectors?


Screature, all the ones who should have caught the big "E" at XL.......


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, all the ones who should have caught the big "E" at XL.......


Sorry rps that's just not true. Check the record... there were no laid-off inspectors at XL. Whoever told you that was in error at best...


----------



## groovetube

Clearly there's a deficiency.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Screature, all the ones who should have caught the big "E" at XL.......


FWIW, there were more, not less inspectors at XL Foods. Trouble is, they were obviously typical federal union members not doing their jobs and didn't catch the E. coli issue.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> FWIW, there were more, not less inspectors at XL Foods. Trouble is, they were obviously typical federal union members not doing their jobs and didn't catch the E. coli issue.


They were probably sleeping on sacks of rotten meat.


----------



## groovetube

Agriculture minister’s assistant cuts short tainted meat press conference as agency head explains XL Foods delay | Canada | News | National Post



> Da Pont said Canadian inspectors asked for information from XL Foods Inc. on Sept. 6 about “critical points” where E. coli might become a problem, but didn’t get it right away.


I'm confused. So, the Canadian federal inspectors, had to get information from federal union inspectors at XL but there was a big delay?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> FWIW, there were more, not less inspectors at XL Foods. Trouble is, they were obviously typical federal union members not doing their jobs and didn't catch the E. coli issue.


Well how many inspectors are assigned to work at XL Foods previously and presently? Just so we know how large the increase of inspectors?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Well how many inspectors are assigned to work at XL Foods previously and presently? Just so we know how large the increase of inspectors?


You will have to ask the federal minister such a question for the specifics. I take him at his word.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well how many inspectors are assigned to work at XL Foods previously and presently? Just so we know how large the increase of inspectors?


There are currently 40 unionized inspectors at the plant. There were 34 unionized inspectors at the plant in 2006. Each of them has the power to pull the plant's license if documentation is not handed over.


----------



## SINC

^ 

There you go!


----------



## groovetube

'unionized'. Canadian government inspectors, or XL employed inspectors.

I can't seem to find much info.

And the insinuation was made that it was the 'unionized inspectors' at XL who caused the delay. Is this so? The article says CIFA couldn't get the info from XL. So am I to believe this was the 'unionized inspector's' fault?


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> You will have to ask the federal minister such a question for the specifics. I take him at his word.


Hi Sinc, I think the point the minister was trying to hide was that the Canadian inspectors didn't find the e-coli. This bluster that it didn't get into the system is a croc, the U.S. guys inspected it as is normal, but our guys should have caught it such that it would never have left the plant. This begs the question, was there any product shipped that wasn't bound for the U.S., and if so who is checking that.


----------



## groovetube

From what I see, it does little good asking this minister anything.


----------



## i-rui

the Harper government added inspectors after the listeriosis outbreak, but last year started cutting back on certain plants and earlier this year announced that they would be cutting back 200 positions from the CFIA. 

i'm not sure how, when or if it had any impact on the XL meat plant, but i think it's important to note that the rise in inspectors was because of the listeriosis tragedy, and yet only a few years after the incident Harper was ready to cut back on the inspectors.

I'm guessing the E.coli outbreak will reverse those cuts, but it does show how short sighted this government can be. It's reactive, instead of proactive.


----------



## Macfury

I believe it shows that an increase in the number of unionized inspectors at XL has had little effect on public safety.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> the Harper government added inspectors after the listeriosis outbreak, but last year started cutting back on certain plants and earlier this year announced that they would be cutting back 200 positions from the CFIA.
> 
> i'm not sure how, when or if it had any impact on the XL meat plant, but i think it's important to note that the rise in inspectors was because of the listeriosis tragedy, and yet only a few years after the incident Harper was ready to cut back on the inspectors.
> 
> I'm guessing the E.coli outbreak will reverse those cuts, but it does show how short sighted this government can be. It's reactive, instead of proactive.


Apparently, it'll be solved once the inspectors aren't unionized.

We'll all be safe then.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> You will have to ask the federal minister such a question for the specifics. I take him at his word.


Here's another Video interview - Dailymotion -This video is a CBC Power and Politics Interview.

I have heard from Bob Kingston, (former CFIA supervisor) the head of the Union that represents employees of CFIA say * NO NEW INPECTORS at the XL Foods plant or any slaughter plants.* "...they have added 170 inspectors at processed meat plants..." This was as a result of the tainted meat at Maple Leaf foods.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QuA5-UhJxE



CTV said:


> Earlier, Ritz repeated the government’s message that 700 new CFIA food inspectors have been added in recent years -- 170 of them dedicated specifically to meat inspection. He said there were 46 CFIA staff members at the XL meat-processing plant in Brooks, Alta. prior to the E. coli discovery – including 40 inspectors and six veterinarians.


That's right just 40 inspectors and 6 vets on 2 shifts for a plant with through put of more than 4000 animals a day. So an average 23 CFIA inspectors per shift.

Read more: Information on tainted beef was delayed: CFIA | CTV News


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> That's right just 40 inspectors and 6 vets on 2 shifts for a plant with through put of more than 4000 animals a day. So an average 23 CFIA inspectors per shift.


Apparently for a unionized inspector, this is too much,


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Apparently for a unionized inspector, this is too much,


Why do you suppose those union bosses all look like Mafia types?


----------



## BigDL

If you can't defend then attack? Counter the facts offered, don't insult a person based on his or her looks. 

If that's all a poster has, why bother posting and embarrassing one's self?

The tired old Harper's Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government™ has totally bungled the communications and handling of this crisis. Tic, tic, tic, time is running out, the middle of October 2015 draws ever closer. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Asking a question is far from an attack, but yeah, it's almost as annoying and tired as that '™ ' crap, isn't it?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Asking a question is far from an attack, but yeah, it's almost as annoying and tired as that '™ ' crap, isn't it?


I suspect that bungling communications is pretty small potatoes compared to the unionized bungling of meat inspection. It's possible, however, that the communications department is also unionized--then it all makes sense.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Asking a question is far from an attack, but yeah, it's almost as annoying and tired as that '™ ' crap, isn't it?


I'd like to see something beyond the baited attacks of the union from either of you. You are against these sort of character attacks of our government, but yet you describe these union members as 'looking like the mafia'.

Ultimately, whatever changes that need to be done are needed for our own safety.


----------



## BigDL

So how does 700 net new jobs at CFIA help or hinder tainted meat? Anyone? Bueller?

No new CFIA jobs in slaughter plants anywhere in the country. * NONE.*

Then why introduce a meaningless factoid into an important discussion like tainted meat?

Weeks ago the Ritz assures Canadians, no tainted meat went to market, now we have the largest recall of meat products, the boarder was closed, the XL Foods abattoir is closed.

To many, the government's communications and handling of this tainted meat situation is an epic fail. The president of CFIA's communication is completely ineffective, epic fail.
XL Food's communications and handling of this situation is non-existent and therefore another epic fail.

You are welcome to trust the message track of the current Government, at your own peril.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> So how does 700 net new jobs at CFIA help or hinder tainted meat? Anyone? Bueller?
> 
> No new CFIA jobs in slaughter plants anywhere in the country. * NONE.*
> 
> Then why introduce a meaningless factoid into an important discussion like tainted meat?
> 
> Weeks ago the Ritz assures Canadians, no tainted meat went to market, now we have the largest recall of meat products, the boarder was closed, the XL Foods abattoir is closed.
> 
> To many, the government's communications and handling of this tainted meat situation is an epic fail. The president of CFIA's communication is completely ineffective, epic fail.
> XL Food's communications and handling of this situation is non-existent and therefore another epic fail.
> 
> You are welcome to trust the message track of the current Government, at your own peril.


It's much better to discuss the likeness of a union boss to a mafia member. See this is likely the real problem. Then just throw out vague references to more inspectors, no details, just kinda like the scatter missiles one tosses out to deflect getting hit.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So how does 700 net new jobs at CFIA help or hinder tainted meat? Anyone? Bueller?


Apparently having more unionized inspectors at the XL Plant did no good at all. Like Bueller, I suspect they took the day off.


----------



## groovetube

Oh. And just keep repeating it.

Very good bait!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Apparently having more unionized inspectors at the XL Plant did no good at all. Like Bueller, I suspect they took the day off.


It's incredible all those biologists, scientists and inspectors missed something so basic. Ask any cattleman who knows and eats his own beef. He will tell you that cow poop is the culprit. It's full of E. coli and the only way to avoid it is to keep your ranches, feed lots and meat plants clean. So simple. Clean, sterilize, repeat often.


----------



## groovetube

More assumptions, no facts.


----------



## i-rui

what do unions have to do with any of this? from all accounts the culprit was the company & management at XL foods who prioritized speed and processing over health & safety. they wouldn't even turn over vital documents to the government when requested in a timely fashion.

and while some may try to scapegoat the unionized canadian meat inspectors for this, they conveniently forget that without US meat inspectors this incident could have become far worse and deadly. those US meat inspectors are of course unionized.


----------



## groovetube

any attempt at breaking through the diversions of "dem union people' seemed somewhat fruitless.

Who cares what actually happened when you can bait a thread! It's more fun I, guess.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> It's incredible all those biologists, scientists and inspectors missed something so basic. Ask any cattleman who knows and eats his own beef. He will tell you that cow poop is the culprit. It's full of E. coli and the only way to avoid it is to keep your ranches, feed lots and meat plants clean. So simple. Clean, sterilize, repeat often.


Odd how a local butcher says essentially the same thing as my rancher friend:



> In the wake of the massive recall – recently expanded to include more than 1,500 products sold at major grocers in Canada and the United States – local butcher shops have managed to increase sales and grow their clientele.
> 
> “It’s a good story out of something that’s terrible because we’ve been very busy here,” said Kyle Iseke, owner of D’Arcy’s Meat Market in Campbell Business Park. “We’re working a lot of extra hours before we open and after we close to try to produce enough meat for the extra customers that are coming in.”
> 
> He said roughly every third customer walking in the door asks about the recall.
> 
> Edmonton’s XL Foods had its Brooks, Alta. packing plant shut down by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency at the end of September after products tested positive for E. coli earlier in the month.
> 
> The provincial health authority has since confirmed five cases of E. coli, while nearly 20 additional cases are under investigation across the prairies.
> 
> *“They grind non-stop — 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It’s a lot harder for them to stop and clean up,” Iseke said. “Clean up and sanitation is way more manageable in a tiny shop.”*


Beef recall drives customers to local meat store | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Odd how a local butcher says essentially the same thing as my rancher friend


Indeed, I think the real culprit here is the factory-model. When we shift from a system in which people are farming animals in a way that necessitates each animal be dealt with as an individual living thing - with it's needs being dealt with at least at the level of it's health and well being considered as valuable - to a factory system in which the animals are simply being slaughtered and turned into marketable products in an assembly line as quickly and cheaply as possible, we invite this sort of problem. A lot of the primitive cultural taboos about how animals were or were not to be slaughtered were effectively methods to prevent the spread of disease (i.e. they were doing some of the right things for the wrong reasons, so that turned out to be beneficial for their tribes and it became part of their culture).

Of course, with a burgeoning human population that has been raised on a meat-centric diet, these centralized factory facilities are by far more profitable than the 'old fashioned' rancher-local-butcher model.

Obviously, this wouldn't be a problem if people would stop eating meat, but it's also obvious that most people won't, despite the overwhelming evidence that meat is not healthy, and it's production is damaging to the environment.

So we're left to depend on governments to protect us from the conflicting interests of profits and human health. Ironically, I think if Libertarianism prevailed, and governments decided to let the market sort this out, we'd see the price of meat skyrocket (without subsidies, meat prices would be much higher). And in order to get meat that was actually inspected by independent qualified professionals, you'd have to be willing to pay even more! This would actually wind up improving the health of society by causing most people to cut way back on the amount of meat they consumed.

So, if it weren't for my concern about the short term consequences (i.e. many people getting very sick and/or dying), I'd actually agree with MacFury for a change.


----------



## MacDoc

Funny there are no libbie societies.....just sayin'


----------



## bryanc

MacDoc said:


> Funny there are no libbie societies.....just sayin'


Well, there aren't any libertarian societies *any more*. It seems intuitively obvious that essentially all societies start out as "libertarian" in the sense that governments are things that have to be created, so all societies start out without them. But as soon as the first hominid tribes started accepting rules that limited individual freedoms for the benefit of the tribe, the Libertarian Ideal was left behind.

Despite my frequently poking fun at Libertarianism, I actually agree with the principle that, other things being equal, more individual freedom is better. The problem is that other things are not equal; freedom almost always comes at the cost of something else, so we have to balance the loss of freedom against the needs of society. As society becomes more and more crowded, and resources become more an more scarce, individual freedoms will become more and more difficult to maintain.

I would actually love to live in a more Libertarian society; where individuals are more free to pursue their own choices and where governments play a far smaller role in our lives. But that would require a world with far fewer people, so that the poor choices of some would not negatively impact on others, and the bad luck of a few could be easily mitigated by the surplus resources of a wealthy society. I could see something like that being possible with current technology and 1 or maybe 2 billion people; but not with 7 or 8 billion people competing for the limited resources of our small fragile planet. And we're going to see 10+ billion within the next couple of decades, so things are going to get much worse before they get better.


----------



## bryanc

Sorry to quote myself, but I want to expand on this point, because I think this should be a central principle of Canadian society, and it's one on which I think Stephen Harper and I completely disagree.


bryanc said:


> I actually agree with the principle that, other things being equal, more individual freedom is better. The problem is that other things are not equal; freedom almost always comes at the cost of something else, so we have to balance the loss of freedom against the needs of society.


There are lots of things the government currently regulates that it could get out of, and thereby increase the liberty of Canadians, and the costs of these freedoms would almost certainly be small (or even negative - i.e. they could generate new sources of revenue).

The obvious one is marijuana; legalize it and tax it.

Another one is marriage; governments have no business mediating personal relationships. On the basis of past discussions here, I will add that I do see value in government agencies and legislation to protect people from being abused in relationships, and to prevent people from being taken advantage of due to asymmetries (financial or otherwise) in long term relationships, but I don't think we need any rules about who can or can't marry who.

And there are many others (what they may be would be a good topic for a whole new thread: "Government should get out of...")

What we need governments for is primarily to regulate and limit the use of power (particularly financial power), and to protect the commons (see Tragedy of the Commons). There are also a large number of socially valuable activities and goals that do not lend themselves well to private enterprise, and generally aren't done on the basis of their profitability: Education, health care, art, scientific research and academic pursuits in general, athletics, music, etc. Since these are things that are almost definitive of culture, they should be fostered in any healthy society, and while private enterprise will often contribute to these things, I think they are best supported by tax revenue rather than the fickle forces of the free market.


----------



## Rps

bryanc said:


> I would actually love to live in a more Libertarian society; where individuals are more free to pursue their own choices and where governments play a far smaller role in our lives..


So are you thinking that we need to live in a democracy rather than a republic, and if so, how would that work globally?


----------



## bryanc

Rps said:


> So are you thinking that we need to live in a democracy rather than a republic, and if so, how would that work globally?


It would only work globally if human needs were not outstripping resources, and if human work & creativity were valued highly. With so many humans living simultaneously on the planet, neither of these pertain; when there are 7 billion people, life is cheap.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Funny there are no libbie societies.....just sayin'


No, the desire to dominate one's fellow creatures generally begins to sink most societies.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> No, the desire to dominate one's fellow creatures generally begins to sink most societies.


The innate (and fundamentally biological) "desire to dominate one's fellow creatures" (especially conspecifics) is what necessitates laws and government. If people didn't have such a desire, we'd need far fewer laws.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> The innate (and fundamentally biological) "desire to dominate one's fellow creatures" (especially conspecifics) is what necessitates laws and government. If people didn't have such a desire, we'd need far fewer laws.


And this, is the salient point here. The far right seems to want us to believe, that the government is what wants to dominate us. While that could be true and is in some cases, but it's when we give governments more power over the people when this happens. Witness what happened after 9/11 with the incredible erosion of personal freedoms.

One can vote for a government every 4 years (or so), but you can't do so with private interests.

And that, is where libertarians fall completely apart.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Sorry to quote myself, but I want to expand on this point, because I think this should be a central principle of Canadian society, and it's one on which I think Stephen Harper and I completely disagree.
> 
> 
> There are lots of things the government currently regulates that it could get out of, and thereby increase the liberty of Canadians, and the costs of these freedoms would almost certainly be small (or even negative - i.e. they could generate new sources of revenue).
> 
> The obvious one is marijuana; legalize it and tax it.
> 
> Another one is marriage; governments have no business mediating personal relationships. On the basis of past discussions here, I will add that I do see value in government agencies and legislation to protect people from being abused in relationships, and to prevent people from being taken advantage of due to asymmetries (financial or otherwise) in long term relationships, but I don't think we need any rules about who can or can't marry who.
> 
> And there are many others (what they may be would be a good topic for a whole new thread: "Government should get out of...")
> 
> What we need governments for is primarily to regulate and limit the use of power (particularly financial power), and to protect the commons (see Tragedy of the Commons). There are also a large number of socially valuable activities and goals that do not lend themselves well to private enterprise, and generally aren't done on the basis of their profitability: Education, health care, art, scientific research and academic pursuits in general, athletics, music, etc. Since these are things that are almost definitive of culture, they should be fostered in any healthy society, and while private enterprise will often contribute to these things, I think they are best supported by tax revenue rather than the fickle forces of the free market.


Very good start to the list. Interestingly enough, some of those items are the very items 'champions of freedom' wish to control most.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> The innate (and fundamentally biological) "desire to dominate one's fellow creatures" (especially conspecifics) is what necessitates laws and government. If people didn't have such a desire, we'd need far fewer laws.


You have it ass-backwards, bryanc. Government is the tool that weak people use to subjugate their fellow humans.


----------



## groovetube

Actually, governments are the thing that powerful people convince ordinary people they don't need, because powerful people prefer to have the power.

People can elect governments, but not powerful private interests.

But far too many fall for this ploy.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> You have it ass-backwards, bryanc. Government is the tool that weak people use to subjugate their fellow humans.


What is the tool that strong people use? For the physically strong, it may be the threat of violence; for the wealthy it has traditionally been corporations. Don't give me the pollyanna BS about truly strong people not needing to subjugate anyone; that may be true, but those aren't the people we need to worry about. The point of democracy is so that everyone has a voice in their government, and therefore, ideally, no one is subjugated. It doesn't always work, and it often works only to a limited degree, but it's the best system we've found so far.

Strangely, in my experience, it is only when Right-wing governments get into power that significant threats to personal liberties become worrisome. I'll grant that authoritarian dictators also exist on the left, but that's not been a problem in Canada. It's our Conservatives that are banging the Law-and-Order drum the loudest (although recently, the Liberals were heading in that direction as well... which is part of why I consider them a Right-leaning party).

So government can be a tool of subjugation, but in "progressive" societies, government primarily functions to regulate corporate behaviour. Of course, if you consider the regulation of corporations to be "subjugation" of our fellow humans, there's not much point in discussing it further.


----------



## eMacMan

The problem with Democracy is that it requires the active participation of the citizenry. In North America at least there seems to be a common belief that the only participation required is every few years casting a ballot for the LOP of those who have been put forth to represent the Corporate interests.

Both stateside and here such participation is actively discouraged. In this digital age any bill limiting or eliminating personal liberty should be presented all by itself in plebiscite form and require two thirds approval to pass. Instead both sides of the border they are snuck through as a portion of vast omni-bus bills. We have even had Mr. Toews go so far as to call those opposing one such bill; "Child Molester Enablers".

Stateside they are hiding behind an artificial perpetual State of Emergency/War to justify shredding the entire Constitution.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the Harper government added inspectors after the listeriosis outbreak, but last year started cutting back on certain plants and earlier this year announced that they would be cutting back *200 positions from the CFIA*.
> 
> i'm not sure how, when or if it had any impact on the XL meat plant, but i think it's important to note that the rise in inspectors was because of the listeriosis tragedy, and yet only a few years after the incident Harper was ready to cut back on the inspectors.
> 
> I'm guessing the E.coli outbreak will reverse those cuts, but it does show how short sighted this government can be. It's reactive, instead of proactive.


The CFIA employs many people beyond meat inspectors... Do you have any documentation that indicates that there were cut backs to meat inspectors in general or specifically at XL as I have seen nothing that indicates this?


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> The problem with Democracy is that it requires the active participation of the citizenry. In North America at least there seems to be a common belief that the only participation required is every few years casting a ballot for the LOP of those who have been put forth to represent the Corporate interests.


Yes, the perennial complaint about politics is that regardless of who you vote for, you get more of the same. I found it interesting that, when you plot the positions of political leaders in the 21st century using the political compass or other tools, you find them all clustered together in the upper right hand corner of the map (authoritarian/conservative), whereas most people I know are scattered around the lower left quadrant (libertarian/progressive). There are exactly zero running politicians who can be considered progressive libertarians, and only a few who are anything other than strong authoritarians, regardless of their economic or social philosophy. 

So there's basically no one to vote for. Which leaves us all arguing about who to vote against. That is understandably uninspiring, and it results in the poor voter turnout we see in most modern democracies.

I do think, with modern information technology, a more participatory democracy is possible, but our traditions work against us here; and our apathetic political culture makes it even more unlikely. If we can't even agree that proportional representation is a good idea, how could we ever muster the political will to implement a system with the adequate checks and balances to facilitate fair political participation by a significant proportion of the populace?


----------



## mrjimmy

bryanc said:


> Yes, the perennial complaint about politics is that regardless of who you vote for, you get more of the same. I found it interesting that, when you plot the positions of political leaders in the 21st century using the political compass or other tools, you find them all clustered together in the upper right hand corner of the map (authoritarian/conservative), whereas most people I know are scattered around the lower left quadrant (libertarian/progressive). There are exactly zero running politicians who can be considered progressive libertarians, and only a few who are anything other than strong authoritarians, regardless of their economic or social philosophy.
> 
> So there's basically no one to vote for. Which leaves us all arguing about who to vote against. That is understandably uninspiring, and it results in the poor voter turnout we see in most modern democracies.
> 
> I do think, with modern information technology, a more participatory democracy is possible, but our traditions work against us here; and our apathetic political culture makes it even more unlikely. If we can't even agree that proportional representation is a good idea, how could we ever muster the political will to implement a system with the adequate checks and balances to facilitate fair political participation by a significant proportion of the populace?


The illusion of choice.


----------



## MacDoc

Australia has a much better system where there is choice and gradations.

Voting is mandatory.
Both Houses are elected and effective.
It is a sophisticated proportional system.

About Australia: Our Electoral System

It shows.

The balance between federal, state and municipality is more evenly structured tho there are still stresses.

Never would Harper have been elected if we had that system.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> The illusion of choice.


The interesting thing is, if you scan over these political threads, you'd think we have at least 2 or 3 distinctly different choices.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Australia has a much better system where there is choice and gradations.
> 
> Voting is mandatory..


Mandatory voting is a sad joke. So much for freedom to elect. MacDoc, you do tend to gravitate to these pandering, paternalistic societies.


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## groovetube

one can spoil a ballot.


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## SINC

MacDoc said:


> Australia has a much better system where there is choice and gradations.
> 
> Voting is mandatory.


Ah yes, 'choice and madatory'. Sure. The old oxymoron trick. Mostly moron. Makes perfect sense to me. What a crock!


----------



## groovetube

well, it's mandatory to pay taxes. It's mandatory to have a driver's licence and go to a government office to get one, the list is endless.

How would it be "moronic" if it's mandatory to select who makes these rules? I'd say it's moronic not to. As I said, if you don't want to choose any of them, spoil your ballot.

Mocking mandatory voting is completely ridiculous given the number of mandatory things not nearly as important as ensuring the people's choice of who runs your country.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The CFIA employees many people beyond meat inspectors... Do you have any documentation that indicates that there were cut backs to meat inspectors in general or specifically at XL as I have seen nothing that indicates this?


nothing exact, but i found this (note that this is from april of this year) :

Hey Gerry Ritz, here’s a crazy idea to change those food-safety headlines | canada.com



> The Agriculture Union has some even more precise numbers — that’s because 59 food inspectors received actual layoff notices (meaning, their jobs are definitely gone). Some of these 59 people are meat inspectors tasked with inspecting plants.
> 
> In addition to these 59 “declared surplus” letters, the Ag Union estimates that of the other food inspectors who have received “affected notices,” between 30 and 40 could be laid off.


----------



## SINC

^ 

The question being, WHERE were they laid off, if in fact they were? Brooks? Or not?


----------



## i-rui

as i said before i don't know if it had anything to do with XL, my point was that the Harper government acts in a reactive way instead of a proactive way. they increased inspectors after the last tainted meat scare, but after a few years were ready to cut back again.

there's also this article on the Harper government eventually pulling ALL inspectors from BC :

Ottawa dumps meat inspection on British Columbia « Tell the government all Canadians deserve safe food

the irony is any savings from these cutbacks are surely lost several times over by any of these major health scares. ultimately it's penny wise , pound foolish.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Ah yes, 'choice and madatory'.


I agree with you SINC. Making voting mandatory seems quite ridiculous to me; voting ought to be a privilege one earns by virtue of knowing something about the issues and candidates. But I think the Australian automatic runoff system looks very good, and I think if we implemented such a system in Canada more people would choose to vote because they wouldn't feel they were wasting their time.

I could vote for the Green Party, with the NDP 2nd, the Marijuanna party 3rd, the Communist party 4th, the Liberals 5th, and ensure that whatever candidate won, I would have effectively voted against the Conservatives. In our current system, I have to guess what opposition will do best against the conservatives and vote for them, even if I don't like their policies.


----------



## groovetube

Budget watchdog says he is willing to go to court to get information on federal cuts - The Globe and Mail

One has to wonder, what really is the big secret that requires threats?


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## groovetube

Ottawa to allow slaughterhouses to process already dead animals - thestar.com

It appears the Harper government is being proactive in creating even more risk. Just who's side are they on????


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## bryanc

groovetube said:


> Just who's side are they on????


It should be quite obvious by now that the Harper Conservatives have been and always will be on the side of Business. Whatever is good for business is what they will try to make happen, and Business, in turn, will try to ensure that Harper stays in power. It's a symbiotic relationship.


----------



## jimbotelecom

The government and the private sector look bad on this one. So much for competent managers. Not to mention lack of accountability.
We the beefeaters!

Communication breakdown: How Canadians were let down on E. coli response - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> It should be quite obvious by now that the Harper Conservatives have been and always will be on the side of Business. Whatever is good for business is what they will try to make happen, and Business, in turn, will try to ensure that Harper stays in power. It's a symbiotic relationship.


It seems obvious to me, and you, but I don't think it is to everyone. Sadly, people still believe that simply taking away government oversight and power (the ones people can elect and choose...) and handing it to entities that have no interest in people, or their welfare, somehow, somehow, we'll all be magically better off.

Seeing news articles like this, make me worry that this could be the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## groovetube

This seems to be getting bigger...
U.S. got almost triple amount of XL Foods recalled beef - Canada - CBC News


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> This seems to be getting bigger...
> U.S. got almost triple amount of XL Foods recalled beef - Canada - CBC News


That means it's up to 3% vs. 1% of supplied beef products from XL into the U.S. Whereas in Canada it's roughly 33% of Canadian beef comes from XL.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Ah yes, 'choice and madatory'. Sure. The old oxymoron trick. Mostly moron. Makes perfect sense to me. What a crock!


Sinc, I believe voting should be mandatory ... But I also believe that we should have a "non of the above" choice .... A sanctioned protest choice if you will.


----------



## SINC

Well Rp, in my opinion a vote is all about choice and that choice should include the right to abstain.


----------



## groovetube

It seems the concept of spoiled ballots (or as rps suggested, none of the above) simply isn't good enough to be considered a choice?


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> It seems the concept of spoiled ballots (or as rps suggested, none of the above) simply isn't good enough to be considered a choice?


Groove, the issue with a spoiled ballot is you don't if some are a protest, some are spoiled due to not following rules and some are due to stupidity..... But I think it is an important message to send if the majority do not like the choices given....I know this opens up a can of worms but to be fair, one needs to cover all choices.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> It seems the concept of spoiled ballots (or as rps suggested, none of the above) simply isn't good enough to be considered a choice?


What if you, me, Rps and "none of the above" were the choices on the ballot. You receive 500 votes, I receive 300 votes, Rps receives 400 votes and "none of the above" receives 1500 votes. Who wins then???


----------



## bryanc

Dr.G. said:


> What if you, me, Rps and "none of the above" were the choices on the ballot. You receive 500 votes, I receive 300 votes, Rps receives 400 votes and "none of the above" receives 1500 votes. Who wins then???


Groovetube would win (yay!). But he'd have a very weak mandate (and with Dr. G and Rps holding the balance of power, he'd be subject to non-confidence). Furthermore, it would be clear that anyone wanting to run on a platform that was distinctively different than any of the three of you would have a good shot at the next election.

I kind of like the idea of major issues being debated in on-line forums for a defined length of time, and then those people who have read the discussion are allowed to vote (everyone is allowed to read the discussion, obviously, but only those who've spent the time necessary to become informed are allowed to vote). Mechanisms to ensure someone has actually read the discussion rather than just having clicked the links might be established (such as a basic comprehension test agreed upon by all parties) to improve the rigour of the system, but I don't think that would even be necessary.

I'd use a representative system to deal with routine issues; because not many of us would be willing to spend the time dealing with a lot of the trivial business managed by our governments (at all levels), but these would have to be carefully audited and subject to checks and balances to prevent small abuses or corruptions from accumulating.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> Groovetube would win (yay!). But he'd have a very weak mandate (and with Dr. G and Rps holding the balance of power, he'd be subject to non-confidence). Furthermore, it would be clear that anyone wanting to run on a platform that was distinctively different than any of the three of you would have a good shot at the next election.
> 
> I kind of like the idea of major issues being debated in on-line forums for a defined length of time, and then those people who have read the discussion are allowed to vote (everyone is allowed to read the discussion, obviously, but only those who've spent the time necessary to become informed are allowed to vote). Mechanisms to ensure someone has actually read the discussion rather than just having clicked the links might be established (such as a basic comprehension test agreed upon by all parties) to improve the rigour of the system, but I don't think that would even be necessary.
> 
> I'd use a representative system to deal with routine issues; because not many of us would be willing to spend the time dealing with a lot of the trivial business managed by our governments (at all levels), but these would have to be carefully audited and subject to checks and balances to prevent small abuses or corruptions from accumulating.


If we had proportional voting maybe power would be divided, but we have "first to the post", so "none of the above" wins .............. or gt, if you want a real person as the winner.


----------



## Rps

Bryanc, I sort of agree with you on your post above, but here's the rub. I live near the U.S. border so I see the ads and news and informational coverage on their propositions. And to be honest, I would doubt that a Philly Lawyer would be able to get to the bottom of the issue to vote a reasonably understanding vote.... but I do agree if certain issues which constitute consensual vs nonconsensual jurisdiction are within a platform ( just as death penalty, abortion, gay marriage or where I lived, building an incinerator ) these may be better served as a votable item.

As for the "none of the above", Dr. G I see nothing wrong with NOTA winning .... what would need to happen is the parties run again until we get a consensus. But, that's another debate .... under republicanism you must make some concessions to the democratic process. The issue that I see with proportional voting is that you would constantly being amending the boundaries and that would probably cost more and cause more issue than the party policies. To me, where the power is held is the flaw ..... we need the true power to be held in an equal and elected senate, with the PM generating policy and the Senate passing it for the good of the country.... my only issue is who would lead the senate.... maybe the GG, but as an appointed position there may be an issue..... maybe we should have that position elected as well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Where's the beef? Hong Kong now! When do we get a little ministerial responsibility?
New illness in B.C. connected to XL beef as recall expands to Hong Kong - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Rps

jimbotelecom said:


> Where's the beef? Hong Kong now! When do we get a little ministerial responsibility?
> New illness in B.C. connected to XL beef as recall expands to Hong Kong - The Globe and Mail


Seems James Cameron is making a movie about this ... he's calling it Abattoir.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Where's the beef? Hong Kong now! When do we get a little ministerial responsibility?
> New illness in B.C. connected to XL beef as recall expands to Hong Kong - The Globe and Mail


No one should get sick from eating tainted food. Period. But let's keep things in perspective... 

Just this year in Ottawa 4 people (kids) got sick with E.coli from contaminated lunches sent to schools. It made the local news, (I don't know if it made provincial or national news ) and the company involved, apologized, swore to make things right and everyone moved on....

4 in a population of 900 thousand (far, far less people were actually potentially exposed when considering the lunches went to at most a few thousand kids.... 

Now we have a tainted food case on an international level with 10s of millions potentially susceptible and there have been 11 cases of E.coli linked to the tainted meat from XL...

On a percentage basis, in terms of those who were potentially exposed vs. those that came down with E.coli, in this case, it is a tiny fraction of the percentage of the case in Ottawa.

The reason why this case is making such headlines is because of the media and the government's opposition smelling blood and thus there is a feeding frenzy


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> If we had proportional voting maybe power would be divided, but we have "first to the post", so "none of the above" wins .............. or gt, if you want a real person as the winner.


That's in interesting question. But I think FPTP would have to be abolished as well. I don't think it has served anyone in this country very well really. Regardless of which side wins.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> The reason why this case is making such headlines is because of the media and the government's opposition smelling blood and thus there is a feeding frenzy


No. it's because the Canadian Inspectors missed the tainted items and allowed them to be shipped, and the Minister of Agriculture didn't own up to the fact during the shortened press conference .... almost an admission of guilt in itself .... screature you and I have been around politics long enough to know that that press conferences was a monumental screw-up as it made the government look bad and not in control.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No one should get sick from eating tainted food. Period. But let's keep things in perspective...
> 
> Just this year in Ottawa 4 people (kids) got sick with E.coli from contaminated lunches sent to schools. It made the local news, (I don't know if it made provincial or national news ) and the company involved, apologized, swore to make things right and everyone moved on....
> 
> 4 in a population of 900 thousand (far, far less people were actually potentially exposed when considering the lunches went to at most a few thousand kids....
> 
> Now we have a tainted food case on an international level with 10s of millions potentially susceptible and there have been 11 cases of E.coli linked to the tainted meat from XL...
> 
> On a percentage basis, in terms of those who were potentially exposed vs. those that came down with E.coli, in this case, it is a tiny fraction of the percentage of the case in Ottawa.
> 
> The reason why this case is making such headlines is because of the media and the government's opposition smelling blood and thus there is a feeding frenzy


I see so it's the opposition's fault that we want to hold the people responsible accountable for this colossal mishandling.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> No one should get sick from eating tainted food. Period. But let's keep things in perspective...
> 
> Just this year in Ottawa 4 people (kids) got sick with E.coli from contaminated lunches sent to schools. It made the local news, (I don't know if it made provincial or national news ) and the company involved, apologized, swore to make things right and everyone moved on....
> 
> 4 in a population of 900 thousand (far, far less people were actually potentially exposed when considering the lunches went to at most a few thousand kids....
> 
> Now we have a tainted food case on an international level with 10s of millions potentially susceptible and there have been 11 cases of E.coli linked to the tainted meat from XL...
> 
> On a percentage basis, in terms of those who were potentially exposed vs. those that came down with E.coli, in this case, it is a tiny fraction of the percentage of the case in Ottawa.
> 
> The reason why this case is making such headlines is because of the media and the government's opposition smelling blood and thus there is a feeding frenzy


I tend to agree here. Thankfully when it comes to handling and preparing meat, the general population seems to have been well enough educated to keep overall damage to a minimum. No thanks here to either the government or XL. 

I am absolutely certain that my family ate at least some of the recalled product with no ill effects. However both safe handling and safe cooking methods were used.

However had this been BSE the long term consequences could have been a great deal more serious.


----------



## bryanc

I think one of the overarching issues in politics, economics and sociology in general is that all systems are imperfect and susceptible to abuse, and the longer a given system is in place, the more abusers will accumulate and perfect their methods for parasitizing or otherwise gaming the system. So it is a good idea for society to change the rules every now and then... just to shake off the load of parasites that have been able to optimize themselves to the status quo.

We obviously have to be careful about not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" but we should try to embrace change, and become a flexible society in which our methods are continuously being re-optimized to serve society.

The political system is a great case in point; we've been using the same rules for over a century, and politicians have refined their schtick to the point where it's getting hard to tell them apart. The gerrymandering of riding boundaries has been refined to a system, and all the parties have well-oiled machines with well-rehearsed play-books for every conceivable campaign circumstance. But if overhauled the system - implemented PR and/or automatic run-off voting, got rid of the senate (or made it elected), or any of many other ideas that have been proposed by thoughtful people over the decades, all of the reflexive, rehearsed and pre-packaged political crap would be made obsolete. Candidates would have to run on their principles simply by virtue of not having a scripted campaign that was modelled on previously successful campaigns by previously successful campaign managers.

Sure, after a few decades, all the political parties and their various functionaries would adapt to the new system; so we'd change it again.

Change is good. Another word for a biological system that is not changing is "dead."


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Change is good. Another word for a biological system that is not changing is "dead."


And most mutations are unhelpful to an organism. The political system is "broken" only to the degree that a person feels it results in policies they don't favour. Not to get personal, but most of the changes you embrace would result in policies I would despise. So change is "good" only to the degree that we embrace the outcome.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> So change is "good" only to the degree that we embrace the outcome.


MacFury, I think what we have here is a conflict in the definition of the term democracy.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MacFury, I think what we have here is a conflict in the definition of the term democracy.


Why?


----------



## Rps

! would think your comment on change would be a key .... do you view the definition of a democracy as the majority rules, or .... a democracy is a society that works for the common good ( what ever the term common good may mean ) they are two distinctly different views.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> ! would think your comment on change would be a key .... do you view the definition of a democracy as the majority rules, or .... a democracy is a society that works for the common good ( what ever the term common good may mean ) they are two distinctly different views.


I'm simply stating that "change" is neither good nor bad. To answer your question, democracy should reflect the wishes of its people, within what passes for a constitution or charter. It need not work specifically for the common good, but is more likely to achieve it than any other society as various factions push and pull the levers of government.


----------



## Rps

MF, that sounds good in theory but in reality it never works ..... look at the arguments of the past : in the U.S. ( where all men are created equal ) votes for Blacks, Women ( I think they literally took the all men part ), Gay marriage, abortion, civil rights and human rights.. in Canada, many of the same issues, but we seemed to work our way through many of these issues much earlier than our U.S. brothers and sisters. Of note, our constitution is much younger than that of the U.S., so I'm not sure it's the constitution or charter, and your right they may not specifically work for the common good ... but then, that's my view of a democracy.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MF, that sounds good in theory but in reality it never works ..... look at the arguments of the past : in the U.S. ( where all men are created equal ) votes for Blacks, Women ( I think they literally took the all men part ), Gay marriage, abortion, civil rights and human rights.. in Canada, many of the same issues, but we seemed to work our way through many of these issues much earlier than our U.S. brothers and sisters. Of note, our constitution is much younger than that of the U.S., so I'm not sure it's the constitution or charter, and your right they may not specifically work for the common good ... but then, that's my view of a democracy.


I never said it would be instantaneous!


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I never said it would be instantaneous!


Fair enough!


----------



## Macfury

Rps, how do you view Canada and the U.S.? Are they democracies or are they a constitutional monarchy and a republic?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Rps, how do you view Canada and the U.S.? Are they democracies or are they a constitutional monarchy and a republic?


Neither are a democracy and both are republics.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Neither are a democracy and both are republics.


Agreed. I believe that true democracy--that is, instantaneous action of governments based on electronic polling feedback--would kill any society. There would be no possibility for planning. However, I think we should move closer to that model, in which taxpayers can decide whether to enact a law, or fund one program or project over another. Given most issues amount to "do it or don't do it" as a vote in the House of Commons, we probably would do no worse to hold more referenda.


----------



## bryanc

When I said "change is good" I was simplifying for emphasis. I agree that not all change is necessarily good, but my point is that we shouldn't fear change, and it may often be advisable to try changes even if you're not sure they'll solve any problems. As long as they are not irreversible changes, even if they don't work we may learn from trying different things.

In ecology, stable ecosystems select for specialists, and changing ecosystems are good for opportunists. Humans are opportunists; we are good at adapting to change. Stagnation does not suit us.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> When I said "change is good" I was simplifying for emphasis. I agree that not all change is necessarily good, but my point is that we shouldn't fear change, and it may often be advisable to try changes even if you're not sure they'll solve any problems. As long as they are not irreversible changes, even if they don't work we may learn from trying different things.
> 
> In ecology, stable ecosystems select for specialists, and changing ecosystems are good for opportunists. Humans are opportunists; we are good at adapting to change. Stagnation does not suit us.


This is why I prefer weak federal models in which lower jurisdictions have the right to experiment. For example, Massachusetts should be free to pursue a socialist health care model. However, the federal government should not impose it on all states, who should be free to conduct their own experiments with health care delivery.


----------



## Rps

I sort of agree. But one has to watch that nothing gets done due to perpetual voting. I think that governments, as we know them here, do an effective job when you consider they, for the most part, work for minority interests ....that is why we have ministries.... and, to be sure, some of the constituents within those minorities can be quite large. That said, where the real legislative base of power is located is what we need to look at, and we should really have a true bi-cameral system with an equal and elected Senate which holds the power to pass legislation. 

However, there are certain issues which maybe we should vote on individually, those that lie in the consensual/nonconsensual domain, such as the death penalty, abortion, gay marriage, and constitutional reform ( which for many will take care of the first three items I mentioned.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Neither are a *democracy* and both are *republics*.


Disagree entirely. 

Democracy is not some utopian ideal. It can only exist in the real world with real people warts and all... no form of democracy can be perfect in everyone's eyes but that doesn't mean they are not democracies.

Canada is a federation and we cannot be a republic as we do have a monarch as the head of state.



> In modern times, a common simplified definition of a republic is a government where the head of state is not a monarch.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> No. it's because the Canadian Inspectors missed the tainted items and allowed them to be shipped, and the Minister of Agriculture didn't own up to the fact during the shortened press conference .... almost an admission of guilt in itself .... screature you and I have been around politics long enough to know that that press conferences was a monumental screw-up as it made the government look bad and not in control.


Didn't see the press conference actually, had ailing in-laws to help look after, posting here is about all the spare time I have these days.


----------



## Rps

Screature, a republic can also be a commonwealth, but to your point on the head of state being a Monarch, and this has been under much debate lately, we are a republic as the leadership of the country is a representation of the populace. Her Majesty has little to do with Canada and is really a hold over from the colonial days.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Didn't see the press conference actually, had ailing in-laws to help look after, posting here is about all the spare time I have these days.


Hoping your in-laws a feeling better!


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, a republic can also be a commonwealth, but to your point on the head of state being a Monarch, and this has been under much debate lately, we are a republic as the leadership of the country is a representation of the populace. Her Majesty has little to do with Canada and is really a hold over from the colonial days.


Well current definitions say we a federation and not a republic, whereas the US is both a federation and a republic. I doubt you will find the word republic used in conjunction with any reference to Canada or in any legislation of this country but you will find the word federal and federation used countless times. If you said we are a crowned republic then I would agree with you we are both a federation and a crowned republic (a pretty obscure term that I doubt most people outside of historians and political science majors have heard of).


----------



## Rps

screature;1223987
I stand by my post.[/QUOTE said:


> No problem, who is the head of state and their role has been an ongoing debate in Canada. From a functional point of view, we fall within a broad definition of a republic in my view, but it's okay to disagree, there are many who would side with you on your definition.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> No problem, who is the head of state and their role has been an ongoing debate in Canada. From a functional point of view, we fall within a broad definition of a republic in my view, but it's okay to disagree, there are many who would side with you on your definition.


I edited my post... learned something new today... we are a crowned republic as well as a federation.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> No one should get sick from eating tainted food. Period. But let's keep things in perspective...
> 
> Just this year in Ottawa 4 people (kids) got sick with E.coli from contaminated lunches sent to schools. It made the local news, (I don't know if it made provincial or national news ) and the company involved, apologized, swore to make things right and everyone moved on....
> 
> 4 in a population of 900 thousand (far, far less people were actually potentially exposed when considering the lunches went to at most a few thousand kids....
> 
> Now we have a tainted food case on an international level with 10s of millions potentially susceptible and there have been 11 cases of E.coli linked to the tainted meat from XL...
> 
> On a percentage basis, in terms of those who were potentially exposed vs. those that came down with E.coli, in this case, it is a tiny fraction of the percentage of the case in Ottawa.
> 
> The reason why this case is making such headlines is because of the media and the government's opposition smelling blood and thus there is a feeding frenzy


Actually a good friend's son went to a daycare that was touched by the E.coli Ottawa incident you referred to. Considering the boy has had a liver transplant he most certainly would have died had he ingested the poisoned food. I hear your point on the tiny percentage affected but when one slaughtering operation is responsible for 1/3 of canadian beef and there is a 3 week continuation in their operations after E.coli is detected - we have a problem. It doesn't help that the same minister who resided over the Maple Leaf luncheon meat crisis and told inappropriate jokes is the same guy in charge years later. This minister is simply incompetent and should resign or be removed.


----------



## groovetube

Someone yesterday had quoted numbers that XL saw 5000 heads going through the plant -a day-, and there are only 40 inspectors to deal with this. Nearly a third of this country's beef, and they only have 40 inspectors? How can this be right.


----------



## Macfury

Changes to pensions will create two-tier worforce in the public service

Bravo--time to trim those pensions.


----------



## groovetube

wasn't this the party that said they'd opt out?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Changes to pensions will create two-tier worforce in the public service
> 
> Bravo--time to trim those pensions.


Agreed... and it affects me personally and I still agree with the changes... 

The previous provisions were out of whack compared to the private sector all the while public servants have it considerably easier and better than their private sector comrades. 

I know, because I have been on both sides of the fence. I used to make a considerably larger salary in the private sector than I do now but when all the benefits are figured in I am still far better off in the position I am in now (public sector) even though my salary is about 22% less... and when it comes to a pension... forgetabouit, when it comes to most private sector jobs.

People who have only worked for the public sector should stop their whining because they don't know just how lucky they are...


----------



## Macfury

I have no problem with public sector employees earning a decent wage--but the gold-plated benefits packages are out of line. These were once supplied to compensate public sector workers for wages considerably below that of the private sector.


----------



## screature

50/50 is completely fair and there is no reason why the public should be paying more for public employees retirement than they do themselves. Additionally I am very much in favour that it will be the same for MPs with this legislation.


----------



## partsguy

My pension plan is 100% 'employee contribution'. Part of the perks of self employment.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> 50/50 is completely fair and there is no reason why the public should be paying more for public employees retirement than they do themselves. Additionally I am very much in favour that it will be the same for MPs with this legislation.


Sorry, but no way is that fair or a good deal for taxpayers.

A company plan, administered by an insurance company should demand a minimum payment by employees to be a member, based upon a percentile of salary, say for example 3%. That is a reasonable expectation of an employee showing a desire to establish a pension for themselves. Once that payment level is met (and of course the employee agreeing to be a member of the plan by meeting it) the company should reasonably match employee contributions at 50 cents on the dollar. 

That is fair and reasonable. Matching employee contributions dollar for dollar is not only unreasonable, it is bad government policy. There is no incentive provided in such plans other than inviting employees to line up at the trough with them at a cost to taxpayers.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Sorry, but no way is that fair or a good deal for taxpayers.
> 
> *A company plan, administered by an insurance company should demand a minimum payment by employees to be a member, based upon a percentile of salary, say for example 3%. *That is a reasonable expectation of an employee showing a desire to establish a pension for themselves. Once that payment level is met (and of course the employee agreeing to be a member of the plan by meeting it) the company should reasonably match employee contributions at 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> That is fair and reasonable. Matching employee contributions dollar for dollar is not only unreasonable, it is bad government policy. There is no incentive provided in such plans other than inviting employees to line up at the trough with them at a cost to taxpayers.


What exactly do you mean by this? Are your suggesting a premium should be paid before reaching 50/50? If so ok I get that but sorry the way you are putting it isn't clear to me. The civil service is not a private company insured by an insurance company so your comparison is not really relevant. 

It is "fair" based on current conditions. IMO you are expecting way too much all at once in the real world. There is going to be enough outrage over this proposal as it is...

Sorry SINC I can't agree with you here because if you had your way it would guarantee an incoming NDP or Liberal government in 2015.


----------



## groovetube

I think the rest of Canadians have been expected to shoulder quite a bit. We've also watched as this government has feasted itself for far too long on our money. And still does. I don't have much sympathy for government workers who get far far more than we do in private sector land.

Another reason why I wouldn't want to see a majority liberal, or ndp government.

For once I'm in agreement with sinc.


----------



## groovetube

partsguy said:


> My pension plan is 100% 'employee contribution'. Part of the perks of self employment.


word. No one matches a penny of what I put away. Been self employed for decades.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Sorry SINC I can't agree with you here because if you had your way it would guarantee an incoming NDP or Liberal government in 2015.


Not likely if it depended on my vote. I repeat, any employee should be called upon to demonstrate that he or she would sign up and sacrifice 3% of their own salary to their future. If they do that, then any reasonable company or government paying 50 cents on the dollar for contributions over that minimum is being totally fair. Think about it. Where else can one get 50% guaranteed on their investment? Dollar for dollar amounts to little more than pigs at the trough.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Not likely if it depended on my vote. I repeat, any employee should be called upon to demonstrate that he or she would sign up and sacrifice 3% of their own salary to their future. If they do that, then any reasonable company or government paying 50 cents on the dollar for contributions over that minimum is being totally fair. Think about it. Where else can one get 50% guaranteed on their investment? Dollar for dollar amounts to little more than pigs at the trough.


Ok so we will have to agree to disagree... 

You really don't understand how much you are expecting civil servants to give up based on your scheme, not to mention there are powerful unions involved so like I said before based on your scheme you would be guaranteeing an NDP or Liberal government with the next election... And who exactly would you be voting for that would propose the kind of scheme you are talking about?

I can tell you who... no one. Because no political party would propose what you are suggesting... Like I said, you are looking for too much all at once.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Like I said, you are looking for too much all at once.


Yes, this is a very good deal that will pay compound dividends down the line.


----------



## Rps

Aren't we talking about a strata here. I thought the main issue was the amounts our elected members were receiving and the amounts they were required to pay in, not necessarily "civil service employees". From what I understand the amounts the elected members receive for time served is criminal ... no one gets that type of pension ... this stems from my personal belief that an elected member should not be considered an employee but is one who has the luxury of fulfilling a responsibility of citizenship ... taking an active involvement in the democratic process ( and make no mistake these people are well compensated for their efforts ), employees, however are another matter. And as the recent market has shown, pensions can be open to attack by market conditions. Pensions for our elected officials can easily be fixed my applying term limits on our members.......

I think that going forward, benefits as we know them will be a thing of the past .... cost certainty is the issue today and, more importantly, tomorrow, what I see happening is employees ( real employees ) will get lump sums to invest how they see fit ( pension, medical, revenue ).


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Aren't we talking about a strata here. *I thought the main issue was the amounts our elected members were receiving and the amounts they were required to pay in, not necessarily "civil service employees".* *From what I understand the amounts the elected members receive for time served is criminal *... no one gets that type of pension ... this stems from my personal belief that an elected member should not be considered an employee but is one who has *the luxury of fulfilling a responsibility of citizenship* ... taking an active involvement in the democratic process ( and *make no mistake these people are well compensated for their effort*s ), employees, however are another matter. And as the recent market has shown, pensions can be open to attack by market conditions. Pensions for our elected officials can easily be fixed my applying term limits on our members.......
> 
> I think that going forward, benefits as we know them will be a thing of the past .... cost certainty is the issue today and, more importantly, tomorrow, what I see happening is *employees ( real employees )* will get lump sums to invest how they see fit ( pension, medical, revenue ).


Rps you must not be fully aware of the contents of the legislation and if you are then you should know that it is about eliminating the strata. The Bill proposes that *both* MPs and civil servants will contribute on a a dollar for dollar basis to their pensions. One dollar of of personal contribution for one dollar of government contribution.

While civil servants don't have it as good as MPs who only contributed 14 cents to the governments 86 cents of pension contribution they still have it better than any private plan by a long shot. Civil servant pay 37 cents to the governments 63 cents of pension contribution. So 50/50 is a big change even for civil servants.

No the MP Pension plan isn't criminal in the least it is completely legal albeit is extremely generous.

_"The luxury of fulfilling a responsibility of citizenship?"_ Since when is it a "responsibility of citizenship" to be a politician? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. 

At roughly $150K/year there are high level civil servants who are far better paid than MPs and they don't have to fly back and forth across the country week after week and be separated from their family 5 days week to do their job. I don't begrudge MPs 1 penny of what they make as they work damned hard with a lot of personal sacrifices to do what they do.

The MP pension plan as it currently exists is another matter and it is about time some government has had the cojones to bring about change.

MPs *are* real employees. They are paid as public servants by the Government of Canada out of general revenues receiving a *pay cheque* from the Government of Canada. I really don't see how you can legitimately see it any other way.


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing he's fully aware of this.


----------



## screature

Liberals mum as NDP and Tories leap on accusations that former cabinet minister spent government funds on son's wedding 
The London Free Press (lfp)



> Liberals stayed clear Friday of a controversy involving a former Grit cabinet minister accused of using his MP account to pay for his son's wedding.
> 
> Nova Scotia MP Scott Brison was the lone Grit to respond to the allegations that Joe Fontana, now the mayor of London, Ont., used more than $20,000 in public funds to pay for a 2005 reception.
> 
> "This is a matter between the mayor and the board of internal economy," Brison said about an on-going House of Commons investigation.
> 
> "I don't have any more information than any of you have at this time and I think we have to respect the investigation."
> 
> Fontana is also the subject of RCMP queries, which could lead to a criminal investigation...


----------



## groovetube

but we're all totally down with Clement's misappropriating 50 million to y'know, snazz up the place a little in his riding.

pffft.

Let's hear some royal indignation on the 1700 bucks.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Liberals mum as NDP and Tories leap on accusations that former cabinet minister spent government funds on son's wedding
> The London Free Press (lfp)


So, another Lib caught with his hand in the cookie jar. At least some politicians spend it on their ridings, and not for their own personal benefit.


----------



## groovetube

ha you want to justify 50 *million *showered over his riding?

pffft. Credibility... = fat zero.

If this guy did something wrong, burn him for it. But don't begin to pretend only liberals get caught with their hand in the cookie jars. Or get handed brown envelopes stuffed with cash in them. :lmao:


----------



## MacDoc

As I was saving we should hire the Norwegians to manage our resources - we are becoming a laughing stock of mismanagement in the resource sector.....



> The foreign affairs think tank points to Norway, Sweden, Finland and Australia as the best examples of countries successfully leveraging their resources for maximum economic and social benefit.
> 
> “Other resource producers do a better job of collaborating, of finding a balance between environmental protection and the economy, of adding, building, or extracting value from their resources, of saving for future generations, and of being strategic about resource development,” according to the report, written by Madelaine Drohan, The Economist’s Canadian correspondent and former Globe and Mail reporter. *“There are smaller countries with fewer resources than Canada that punch far above their weight on the global stage.*”


A nine-step plan to fix Canada?s resource economy - The Globe and Mail

good read and damning of Harper's and Alberta's "management". We have a dire case of Dutch disease impacting Ontario's manufacturing and the black humour of Alberta facing a $3 billion deficit...



> Information shrinks as Alberta's deficit grows
> www.calgaryherald.com/news/Braid...Alberta+deficit.../story.html31 Aug 2012 – The Alberta government is short of money, and apparently short of paper, too. Just when big capital cuts are coming, and a $3-billion deficit is .


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> As I was saving we should hire the Norwegians to manage our resources - we are becoming a laughing stock of mismanagement in the resource sector.....
> 
> A nine-step plan to fix Canada?s resource economy - The Globe and Mail
> 
> good read and damning of Harper's and Alberta's "management". We have a dire case of Dutch disease impacting Ontario's manufacturing and the black humour of Alberta facing a $3 billion deficit...


You do not seem to appreciate that this is a federation and resources are owned by the provinces thus their management is not a federal responsibility but that of the provincial governments. Seems this author doesn't appreciate that fact either or the fact that Canada is already doing a couple of the the things they recommend, namely



> 5. Diversify trade beyond U.S.
> 
> Ottawa should focus on negotiating with large free trade blocs, such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership, rather focusing on single countries, such as China or the U.S. The government should also help companies access markets via reciprocal investment deals.
> 
> 6. Foster global corporate players
> 
> Governments need to change laws that impede the emergence of global players, including poison-pill rules that limit companies’ ability to thwart foreign takeovers. Canada should also demand reciprocal investment rights in foreign markets and be more explicit about what kind of investment is welcome here.


Point nine is the most laughable because it denies the federal nature of our country. All socialists want a National plan/strategy on everything from homelessness to dandruff control. They don't give a rats ass about jurisdictional authority because they believe in big government and the nanny state running everyone's lives.


----------



## groovetube

For a provincial resource the federal government seems curiously involved with Alberta's resources.


----------



## MacDoc

And all right wingers don't give a rats ass about knock on consequences....nothing new there....just look at the litany of AGW deniers. Deny it's happening to help their fav polluters not have to pay for using the atmosphere as a free sewer. 

the DIFFERENCE is Norway, Sweden Aus etc are SUCCESSFUL *for their citizens*- and Canada is letting the resource companies away with murder.
An act of legislation gave the provinces domain over natural resources.....a seriously stupid move - provinces are NOT sovereign entities.
An act of legislation can remove it. 

and Harper is setting up the conditions for that to be a very popular idea.



> According to the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers (CAPP),* 79 per cent of the world’s oil reserves are controlled by national governments.* Out of the 21 per cent left accessible to private industry, more than half is located in Alberta’s three major oil sands deposits – Athabasca, Peace River and Cold Lake.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his administration insist that exploiting the oil sands is necessary and beneficial to our country’s long-term economic health. But for the average Canadian, it can be tough to see exactly where those benefits lie.
> 
> Supporters say the oil sands help the economy by providing hundreds of thousands of jobs, both directly through operations in Alberta and indirectly across Canada through work on pipelines, and in other related industries. *But to some, it seems that most of the profits end up in the laps of officials and oil industry executives.*


Cashing in on Canada's tar sands: oil extraction | The Vancouver Observer

we're too stupid to do what other nations like Norway do and control their resources - we elect idiots like Harper......


----------



## groovetube

here's an example of the far right's attitudes towards people who aren't as privileged as they, and why they must be voted against always.

Danielle Smith’s feed tainted meat to the hungry tweet lands Wildrose leader in hot water | News | National Post

How disgusting can you get.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> here's an example of the far right's attitudes towards people who aren't as privileged as they, and why they must be voted against always.
> 
> Danielle Smith’s feed tainted meat to the hungry tweet lands Wildrose leader in hot water | News | National Post
> 
> How disgusting can you get.


Particularly dumb as most of this meat has been sitting around for some time now and in questionable storage conditions. 

This might have been an OK idea but the meat would have had to have been used immediately, cooked properly and most importantly handled properly. Since shelter cooking is largely volunteer I think the last two items would prove to be deal breakers.

Better to have served it to the super-elite via specially trained caterers. Let the chips fall where they may. These are the risk takers. let them step up and take some risks. 

OTOH With all that meat that was shipped, much of it was consumed. Even so there have been about two dozen cases and non of these seemingly serious. It has me thinking that the recall may have been overly zealous. Only other possibility is that the public is unusually/unbelievably well informed as to safe handling and cooking of raw meat.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> And all right wingers don't give a rats ass about knock on consequences....nothing new there....just look at the litany of AGW deniers. Deny it's happening to help their fav polluters not have to pay for using the atmosphere as a free sewer.
> 
> the DIFFERENCE is Norway, Sweden Aus etc are SUCCESSFUL *for their citizens*- and Canada is letting the resource companies away with murder.
> *An act of legislation gave the provinces domain over natural resources.....a seriously stupid move - provinces are NOT sovereign entities.
> An act of legislation can remove it. *
> 
> and Harper is setting up the conditions for that to be a very popular idea.
> 
> 
> Cashing in on Canada's tar sands: oil extraction | The Vancouver Observer
> 
> we're too stupid to do what other nations like Norway do and control their resources - we elect idiots like Harper......


You really don't know the constitution of the land do you or give a rats ass about it. 

Are you seriously suggesting that Quebec would ever accept having its control over natural resources taken away!?!? Try and get a grip on reality for once and realize that this is Canada with its unique constitution and geo-political make up and we aren't some piddly little nation the size of one of our provinces. 

I get so sick and tired of hearing you rail on about how other countries are doing it so much better when all the while their geo-political situation has next to nothing in common with ours.

Why don't you emigrate already!! tptptptp


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> You really don't know the constitution of the land do you
> 
> this is Canada with its unique constitution and geo-political make up and we aren't some piddly little nation the size of one of our provinces.
> :


Forgive the selective editing of your quote Screature, but I think your comments sum of Canada quite nicely .... the average Canadian doesn't know how things are divided up and that we are a federation .... haven't been in public school for a while so I'm wondering if they've dropped Civics in the curriculum?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Forgive the selective editing of your quote Screature, but I think your comments sum of Canada quite nicely .... the average Canadian doesn't know how things are divided up and that we are a federation .... haven't been in public school for a while so I'm wondering if they've dropped Civics in the curriculum?


I'm surprised at the number of older citizens who fail to understand this--they must have dropped civics in the 1950s by my reckoning.


----------



## bryanc

Civics certainly was not taught when I went through public school (1970's) and it is a problem, in that many people (including me) see issues with public policy and blame the wrong level of government for the problem. This is exacerbated by politicians who campaign on fixing problems they will have no power to effect, just because they see voter's dissatisfaction with the status quo as something they can exploit.

I would certainly support the addition of civics to the public school curriculum.


----------



## Rps

Okay, we had four children who were taught in the 80's, they did not take Civics or anything like it to my knowledge, and quizzing them on civic issues would support this, so, who had younger children here that take civic ( we live in Ontario ) any one, any one, Bueller, Bueller...........


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Forgive the selective editing of your quote Screature, but I think your comments sum of Canada quite nicely .... the average Canadian doesn't know how things are divided up and that we are a federation .... haven't been in public school for a while so I'm wondering if they've dropped Civics in the curriculum?





Macfury said:


> I'm surprised at the number of older citizens who fail to understand this--they must have dropped civics in the 1950s by my reckoning.





bryanc said:


> Civics certainly was not taught when I went through public school (1970's) and it is a problem, in that many people (including me) see issues with public policy and blame the wrong level of government for the problem. This is exacerbated by politicians who campaign on fixing problems they will have no power to effect, just because they see voter's dissatisfaction with the status quo as something they can exploit.
> 
> I would certainly support the addition of civics to the public school curriculum.





Rps said:


> Okay, we had four children who were taught in the 80's, they did not take Civics or anything like it to my knowledge, and quizzing them on civic issues would support this, so, who had younger children here that take civic ( we live in Ontario ) any one, any one, Bueller, Bueller...........


We never had civics classes when I was growing up and I don't know anyone who ever had them.

I think it is a shocking indictment of our educational system that civics is not a compulsory course in grade 10 or 11 as kids get closer to the age when they can actually vote and may be beginning to have in interest in politics and how the various levels of government work.


----------



## SINC

Back in grade nine, in 1959, our social studies teacher has a session on civic government and how it worked. It included a class trip to local city council chambers where we were welcomed by the mayor and the class observed a complete council meeting and procedures. He combined it with lessons on Roberts Rules of Orders.


----------



## groovetube

Auditor-General: Tories approves billions in spending without knowing consequences | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

I've always said, that after years of Harper rule, we're going to wake up with a pretty serious hangover. Seems to be the conservative result.


----------



## groovetube

MP defends giving Queen's Jubilee medal to jailed woman - Politics - CBC News

You gotta be kiddin me.


----------



## groovetube

It seems Canadians are just sleep walking through all these disgusting messes.
Tim Harper: Tribunal will rule whether Ottawa retaliated against native rights? advocate Cindy Blackstock - thestar.com

Once again, your tax dollars here at work!


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> MP defends giving Queen's Jubilee medal to jailed woman - Politics - CBC News
> 
> You gotta be kiddin me.


You gotta love a law and order government and its MP's strict adherence to the concept.  Can you say hypocrisy?


----------



## CubaMark

*Ottawa's long-term debt plans shelved*





> The Conservative government no longer has targets for erasing Canada’s federal debt, which grew by $125-billion since the recession.
> 
> Finance Minister Jim Flaherty confirmed Wednesday that the recession has derailed Ottawa’s long-term debt plans and new targets won’t be set until the government starts posting yearly surpluses again – which is not forecasted to happen for three more years.





> The federal debt stood at $582.2-billion for 2011-12, which is up from $457.6-billion in 2007-08.
> 
> It was just five years ago that the government was promoting an ambitious plan called Advantage Canada that promised to erase the country’s net public debt “by 2021 at the latest,” according to Mr. Flaherty’s 2007 budget.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## MacDoc

> *Canada's Harper sees slow growth, but no recession*
> 
> OTTAWA, Sept 15 | *Mon Sep 15, 2008 *3:52pm BST
> (Reuters) - Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Monday he expects continued slow economic growth, but played down the possibility of a North American recession.
> 
> "While it has slowed down considerably, and while there remains this considerable instability, the American economy has not crashed, has not itself entered into recession," he told reporters in Ottawa.
> 
> "My own belief is if we were going to have some sort of big crash or recession, we probably would have had it by now." (Reporting by David Ljunggren, writing by Cameron French; Editing by Peter Galloway)


oh so savvy.......NOT 



> *Harper flip-flops on running a deficit*
> 
> Technically speaking, he either fibbed or flip-flopped. But the best-case explanation for the most startling about-face of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's career is that he simply failed to see bad times coming, even with hundreds of fiscal gurus on the payroll and Canada's best economists on call.
> 
> BY THE CALGARY HERALD NOVEMBER 25, 2008
> 
> Technically speaking, he either fibbed or flip-flopped. But the best-case explanation for the most startling about-face of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's career is that he simply failed to see bad times coming, even with hundreds of fiscal gurus on the payroll and Canada's best economists on call.
> 
> Harper's no-stupid-deficit, no-recession-ahead positions during last month's election campaign, including a pledge to never unleash unbudgeted spending, have U-turned overnight into an "essential" deficit, which may be exacerbated by a "stimulus" package to fight a "technical" recession in Canada.


Harper flip-flops on running a deficit

Idiot ideologue and our broken election system lets him continue the stupidity.


----------



## BigDL

Ahhh yes, inappropriate tax cut have nothing to do with running a deficit. 

Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government™ has accomplished this poor fiscal record all by themselves. 

Poor old tired, now bankrupt HSSMCG™ have run out ideas, plans and soon enough time. Tic, tic, tic.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I have been looking forward to this day. I'm hoping that there will be a bi-election in Etobicoke and it will be bye-bye Optiz. One never knows with legal rulings though. The court has certainly taken its time on this case before rendering a decision. Down the road we have the Council of Canadians legal push to overturn results in several ridings to look forward to. All will hopefully contribute to the beginning of the end of Harper's majority and a possible restoration of parliamentary democracy and adherence to its traditions.

Supreme Court set to clarify how elections are run - Canada - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa?s long-term debt plans shelved - The Globe and Mail

I'm not sure how many more conservative/republican governments we need to watch to see oh so clearly that these governments simply don't know how to balance a chequebook. Harper's government has been spending like insane lunatics, and this doesn't seem to be stopping. And their incredibly stupid ill advised tax cuts bot to the corporations and the gst has been, of course, as predicted, a total failure. All it did, was make the deficit bigger.

I love how these conservative governments whisper sweet fiscal conservative nothings into conservative/libertarian ears, only have completely deceived them. And they fall for it, each and every time. It's happening stateside right now. Another republican, after 8 years of republican lunatic spending and piling massively on the debt, is once again, trying to convince people that cutting more taxes on the wealthy, spending trillions more on the military (and whatever else they wish to) will somehow magically erase the deficit because they'll cut er, big bird. Or healthcare for the citizens. (raising taxes on the poor!)

It's enough to make one sick.

How long before Harper/Flaherty begins to tell Canadians we have to pay more for our healthcare and other needed services because, well they gave it all to the corporations who are, hoarding all that cash?


----------



## jimbotelecom

4:3 decision - no by-election. Drats!


----------



## groovetube

Saw this on twitter:


> Somewhere, Conservative election strategists have just realized there's nothing they can't get away with.


----------



## eMacMan

Obviously intended as a smoke screen. Maybe for Bill C-30? C-30 is yet another of those re-revived Liberal bills that should be scrapped, we thought it had been scrapped, it certainly should not be passed. Shame on Vic Toews for once again trying to foist Soviet style spying on Canadian citizens.

As to politicians being less than stellar examples for Canadian youth, that is hardly dependent on the size of their pensions. They are doing quite well at promoting the corporate interest even with the Triple Platinum Pension Plan. 



> as it come to this — a Canadian senator threatening a crime wave over pension reform?
> A bill passed by the House of Commons last week and to be considered by Senate would realign the way Members of Parliament and senators pay into their pensions, the CBC reports.
> [ Related: 'Gold-plated' MP pensions finally get clawed back ]
> The result would be a reduction in take-home pay with that money being directed into their pensions, which would remain inaccessible until, like for the rest of us, the age of 65.
> It is a tough pill to swallow for men and women who have worked long, grueling hours to get where they are. But is it really enough to force them into a life of crime?
> As Alberta Senator Grant Mitchell told the Huffington Post:
> All of our MPs are above reproach, but the pressures of not making enough money can become an issue and that is why [take-home salary] needs to be maintained at a certain level. We could talk about brown paper bags with cash in it, because there is pressure all the time. That is why pay needs to be absolutely adequate.
> Alright, so Mitchell isn't exactly buying up balaclavas for himself and his cushy-seated cronies. What he is forecasting is white collar criminality — bribery and influence pedaling and whatnot.
> On the one hand, those making decisions meant to benefit the nation as a whole need to be comfortable enough that they are not worried about making decisions that benefit themselves.
> That is Mitchell's point, summarized.
> On the other hand, seriously?
> The salary for Members of Parliament starts at $157,731, while senators make $132,300 a year for a job that many people say isn't entirely necessary.


Alberta Senator Grant Mitchell says pension reform could spark white collar crime wave | Daily Brew - Yahoo! News Canada


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Obviously intended as a smoke screen. Maybe for Bill C-30? C-30 is yet another of those re-revived Liberal bills that should be scrapped, we thought it had been scrapped, it certainly should not be passed. Shame on Vic Toews for once again *trying to foist Soviet style spying on Canadian citizens.*
> 
> As to politicians being less than stellar examples for Canadian youth, that is hardly dependent on the size of their pensions. They are doing quite well at promoting the corporate interest even with the Triple Platinum Pension Plan.
> 
> 
> *Alberta Senator Grant Mitchell says pension reform could spark white collar crime wave* | Daily Brew - Yahoo! News Canada


Baloney.

Pure bunk on this Senator's part... It isn't like MPs have any real power so exactly what influencing peddling is he talking about? Ministers would be the only MPs worth trying to bribe and they make significantly more money than regular MPs and would have that much more at stake in accepting any bribe. It's a bunch of hogwash.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> baloney.
> 
> Pure bunk on this senator's part... It isn't like mps have any real power so exactly what influencing peddling is he talking about? Ministers would be the only mps worth trying to bribe and they make significantly more money than regular mps and would have that much more at stake in accepting any bribe. It's a bunch of hogwash.


+1


----------



## MacDoc

oops....



> Ex-*Tory staffer in Guelph says he won’t take blame for robocall scheme*
> Published on Wednesday October 31, 2012
> 
> OTTAWA—A former Conservative party staffer once named publicly in the robocalls scandal in Guelph, Ont., says the “entire, massive scheme” was much more co-ordinated than could have been done by a 22-year-old without data access.
> 
> In an extraordinary interview with CBC’s Power and Politics, Michael Sona says he’s not going to “take the fall” for something he didn’t do, accusing the party of cutting him adrift.
> 
> Sona, now 24, was publicly named by a Conservative-friendly media outlet as a key suspect in the vote suppression scheme in Guelph, which saw phony Elections Canada calls aimed at misdirecting voters during the 2011 election campaign.
> 
> Similar calls were reported across the country and are under investigation by the Commissioner of Elections.
> 
> *Sona says the Guelph campaign received a lot of direction from Conservative party headquarters in Ottawa and says the party should know who accessed its database to make the robocalls list.*
> 
> While he maintains his innocence, Sona is shedding no light on which individuals might have been involved in the scheme, saying it’s up to Elections Canada to get to the bottom of the matter.


Ex-Tory staffer in Guelph says he won?t take blame for robocall scheme - thestar.com

Cons could nor quite bury it.....


----------



## groovetube

well he was the easiest choice for throwing under the bus.


----------



## eMacMan

Vic Toews has worked hard to earn a reputation of being a politician who only opens his mouth to exchange feet. Obviously this reputation is very important to him, for when he finally had something worth saying, he did so without opening his mouth. 

Still credit where credit is due, and in this case credit is due.

Thinks to Sinc for the original link.



> The Canadian Press
> Published Thursday, Nov. 1, 2012 10:49PM EDT
> 
> 
> OTTAWA -- The federal government says millions of records of registered long guns have all been destroyed, with the exception of court-protected data from Quebec.
> 
> 
> A spokeswoman for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews confirmed the registry's destruction "as of last night" after gun enthusiasts began spreading the word.
> 
> 
> No formal news release appears to have been issued by a Conservative government that has made repeal and destruction of the long-gun registry one of its bedrock promises.
> 
> 
> Nor has the government said exactly how much taxpayer money will be saved by repealing the registry, although a study by The Canadian Press suggests it is a small fraction of the millions spent annually on gun licensing.
> 
> 
> Last year there were almost eight million firearms logged in the registry, including more than seven million "non-restricted" weapons.
> 
> 
> The latest data from the RCMP shows that, as of last July, there are still more than 564,000 restricted firearms and more than 191,000 prohibited weapons in the federal gun registry.
> 
> 
> "Our Conservative government is proud to say that as of last night, all contents of the long-gun registry have been destroyed, except those related to Quebec," Toews' director of communications Julie Carmichael said in an email Thursday.
> 
> 
> Read more: Government quietly confirms destruction of gun registry data | CTV News


----------



## jimbotelecom

Council of Canadians arguments alleging voter suppression against the conservatives going to Supreme Court. 

http://www.calgaryherald.com/touch/story.html?id=7496723


----------



## CubaMark

*The evidence mounts....*

*Tory election call scripts raised polling station changes*



> A company working for the Conservative Party phoned voters about polling station changes in ridings that had none, according to documents filed in Federal Court on Friday.
> 
> Responsive Marketing Group was making get-out-the-vote calls on behalf of Conservative candidates in a number of ridings, including five of six ridings at issue in a Federal Court challenge over the result of the election May 2, 2011.
> 
> In an affidavit sworn Aug. 8, 2012, Andrew Langhorne, the company's chief operating officer, provided a script used by its callers that asked voters to confirm they knew where to vote on election day and said, "Elections Canada has changed some voting locations at the last moment."
> 
> But only one of the ridings actually had changes to its polling stations, says a lawyer representing the voters who mounted the challenge.
> 
> "Further, the [Conservative Party of Canada] directed RMG to raise the question of polling locations even though Elections Canada had specifically asked political parties to refrain from contacting electors to advise of such changes," Steven Shrybman wrote in the factum presented to the court.


(Read all about it... CBC)


----------



## MacGuiver

CubaMark said:


> *The evidence mounts....*
> 
> *Tory election call scripts raised polling station changes*
> 
> 
> 
> (Read all about it... CBC)


A script used by its callers that asked voters to confirm they knew where to vote on election day and said, "Elections Canada has changed SOME voting locations at the last moment."

This amounts to a vast Right wing conspiracy of voter fraud? LOL! 
Only a moron would get that message and interpret that as saying YOUR voting location changed at the last moment and decide to stay home and not vote. 
In the off chance this message somehow prevented people with a comprehension deficit from voting, Is there any evidence that this message only went to Non conservative voters?


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> Only a moron would get that message and interpret that as saying YOUR voting location changed at the last moment and decide to stay home and not vote.
> In the off chance this message somehow prevented people with a comprehension deficit from voting, Is there any evidence that this message only went to Non conservative voters?



This sort of reporting is the result of a malady known as Harper Derangement Syndrome.


----------



## eMacMan

MacGuiver said:


> A script used by its callers that asked voters to confirm they knew where to vote on election day and said, "Elections Canada has changed SOME voting locations at the last moment."
> 
> This amounts to a vast Right wing conspiracy of voter fraud? LOL!
> Only a moron would get that message and interpret that as saying YOUR voting location changed at the last moment and decide to stay home and not vote.
> In the off chance this message somehow prevented people with a comprehension deficit from voting, Is there any evidence that this message only went to Non conservative voters?


Would the response be the same had it been Liberal or NDP candidates trying to deflect voters to the wrong polling stations? That for me is always the acid test. I never support someone just cause they happen to be my guy and the best way to determine if a reaction is right is to pretend it's the other guy.


----------



## MacGuiver

eMacMan said:


> Would the response be the same had it been Liberal or NDP candidates trying to deflect voters to the wrong polling stations? That for me is always the acid test.


Definitely Yes. If that message deflected someone from voting they must be a moron. If they can show that these calls only went to Liberal and NDP supporters then at least the conspiracy may have some weight although I can think of a better message to keep people home than that one. If they went to everyone at random then it would keep Conservatives from voting too, unless you think they're smarter and would understand the call.


----------



## i-rui

MacGuiver said:


> If they can show that these calls only went to Liberal and NDP supporters then at least the conspiracy may have some weight


i agree, that is the question. if they were targeted at non-supporters then it's definitely in voter suppression territory.


----------



## MacGuiver

i-rui said:


> i agree, that is the question. if they were targeted at non-supporters then it's definitely in voter suppression territory.


If they show Libs and NDP voters were the target of the calls I'll agree its suspicious, though I still can't fathom how a thinking individual would get that call and think that SOME polling stations moved really meant THIER polling station moved. 
I guess the other way to look at it is that the message is true, some polling stations were actually moved. You could also accuse them of voter suppress if they didn't warn people that their was a chance their polling station moved and they failed to cast a ballot for that reason.


----------



## i-rui

someone may not bother voting if they think that their voting station has moved and they lack the motivation to investigate where. people can be lazy, and in elections it's easy to think that their single vote may be inconsequential in the final result, so any extra hurdle for them to vote can easily dissuade them from making the effort. voter turn out in canada is already painfully low.

so, if these calls were made to non-conservative supporters it is without question voter suppression. 

if they were made to conservative supporters, then i agree it's a non-issue.


----------



## bryanc

MacGuiver said:


> You could also accuse them of voter suppress if they didn't warn people that their was a chance their polling station moved and they failed to cast a ballot for that reason.


No. Elections Canada is explicitly responsible for informing voters of the locations of their poling stations, and EC explicitly forbids campaigns from doing things like this. The fact that the Conservatives included any mention of poling station changes contravenes this, even if it was accurate and even if they didn't target any group of voters.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> No. Elections Canada is explicitly responsible for informing voters of the locations of their poling stations, and *EC explicitly forbids campaigns from doing things like this. * The fact that the Conservatives included any mention of poling station changes contravenes this, even if it was accurate and even if they didn't target any group of voters.


No *you* are wrong. The Elections Canada Act has no such limitation. What campaigns cannot do is try and pretend they represent EC.



> Elections Canada had specifically *asked* political parties *to refrain* from contacting electors to advise of such changes,


----------



## MacGuiver

i-rui said:


> someone may not bother voting if they think that their voting station has moved and they lack the motivation to investigate where. people can be lazy, and in elections it's easy to think that their single vote may be inconsequential in the final result, so any extra hurdle for them to vote can easily dissuade them from making the effort. voter turn out in canada is already painfully low.
> 
> so, if these calls were made to non-conservative supporters it is without question voter suppression.
> 
> if they were made to conservative supporters, then i agree it's a non-issue.


I'm not versed in the ins and outs of voting but isn't a persons vote confidential information? How would someone be able to compile a call list of voters for the other side without access to those records?


----------



## MacDoc

Kudos to Harper on this tho likely not for the reasons he would agree with

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says nuclear deal with India will spur economic boost - thestar.com


----------



## i-rui

MacGuiver said:


> I'm not versed in the ins and outs of voting but isn't a persons vote confidential information? How would someone be able to compile a call list of voters for the other side without access to those records?


all political parties have lists of voters who they expect to vote for them. the conservative party also has a database of those who don't support their party (not sure about the liberals or ndp).

The Sixth Estate » Inside the Conservative Voter Information Database (CIMS)

in the states these databases are even more elaborate. voter suppression is big business down there.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Mr Toews is a national embarrassment.

Vic Toews denounced over Ashley Smith comments - The Globe and Mail


----------



## i-rui

does Vic Towes have to borrow other people's feet to put in his mouth?

i think he currently must have about 6 or 7 in there as of right now.


----------



## jimbotelecom

i-rui said:


> does Vic Towes have to borrow other people's feet to put in his mouth?
> 
> i think he currently must have about 6 or 7 in there as of right now.


Yet he keeps his position. Harper?


----------



## Rps

MacGuiver said:


> I'm not versed in the ins and outs of voting but isn't a persons vote confidential information? How would someone be able to compile a call list of voters for the other side without access to those records?


MacGuiver in the old days when I worked elections team members would get copies of the "voted" list and then call and hound those not voted. At one time the voter lists used to be nailed to a hydro pole in the area and you could review them then. Getting info today is probably the easiest it has ever been .......


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> does Vic Towes have to borrow other people's feet to put in his mouth?
> 
> i think he currently must have about 6 or 7 in there as of right now.





jimbotelecom said:


> Mr Toews is a national embarrassment.
> 
> Vic Toews denounced over Ashley Smith comments - The Globe and Mail





jimbotelecom said:


> Yet he keeps his position. Harper?


Towes is a train wreck waiting to fall off the track which he this time, once again.

Poor tired old HSSCMG™, Tic, Tic, Tic! tptptptp


----------



## groovetube

> “Whenever you’re able to remove the illicit market … such as the large demand we have for the marijuana from B.C. that heads to the United States, *where criminal organizations make a significant amount of profit and then exchange it into cocaine and guns and bring it back into Canada* – it will have a direct effect here on B.C.,” he said.
> 
> Read more: Canada should vote to legalize pot too, advocate says | CTV News


But this will require a more progressive government that isn't stuck in the 1950s to understand this fully. So far Harper and co is content to waste insane millions on helping criminals make tons of cash.


----------



## eMacMan

> “Whenever you’re able to remove the illicit market … such as the large demand we have for the marijuana from B.C. that heads to the United States, *where criminal organizations make a significant amount of profit and then exchange it into cocaine and guns and bring it back into Canada* – it will have a direct effect here on B.C.,” he said.
> 
> Read more: Canada should vote to legalize pot too, advocate says | CTV News





groovetube said:


> But this will require a more progressive government that isn't stuck in the 1950s to understand this fully. So far Harper and co is content to waste insane millions on helping criminals make tons of cash.


Still if Organized crime has anything close to the influence of multi-national corporations, it offers one clear explanation of many Governments opposing the legalization of Cannabis.

I am still trying to get my head around the fact that I don't sell, use, or want to use the crap, but still believe it should be legalized.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> But this will require a more progressive government that isn't stuck in the 1950s to understand this fully. So far Harper and co is content to waste insane millions on helping criminals make tons of cash.


HSSCMG™ couldn't possibly legalize pot as they would be required as a matter of good public policy to tax the sale of marijuana. Couldn't do that. HSSCMG™ would rather see crime (free enterprise) and waste (spend) money going after it. :roll eyes:


All part of tired old bankrupt government.


----------



## SINC

Good on Harper and Canada for continuing to prosecute users of marijuana. Users are abusers.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Good on Harper and Canada for continuing to prosecute users of marijuana. Users are abusers.


Sorry Don but by that logic any one that chugs a beer is an alcoholic. Still as long as you are consistent and apply that thinking to alcohol my Grandmother and her WCTU comrades will rise from their graves and happily give you a loud cheer but no beer.


----------



## groovetube

I guess I could adopt Harper and co's methods here.

Either you're for change, or for supporting the criminals.

See that's where the conversation can go when people dig in their heels and refuse to listen to reason.

We can move past the useless back and forthing and actually look for solutions that actually work, instead of maintaining policies, that clearly have failed, miserably.

Insanity is...


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Sorry Don but by that logic any one that chugs a beer is an alcoholic. Still as long as you are consistent and apply that thinking to alcohol my Grandmother and her WCTU comrades will rise from their graves and happily give you a loud cheer but no beer.


No, anyone that chugs a beer is a law abiding citizen. Pot, not so much.


----------



## groovetube

if pot were legalized, all that would change.

Boom.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Good on Washington and Colorado for their successful legalization initiatives.

The BC economy will be collateral damage. Even though illegal, the black market economy in pot here is worth billions, much of it for export to Washington. Once Washingtonians can get it safely, cheaply and legally at home, that market will shrivel for the BC growers.

One side effect of that will be some of the more violent members of that black market fighting it out amongst themselves over shrinking turf. But as long as it's illegal, that black market composed of criminals, many willing to kill for the bucks, will continue. And continued prohibition will never wipe it out.

What a stupid, backward and ultimately costly decision it is to continue with the war on drugs. For what? So a few adults can't get buzzed when they choose to. It's idiotic.

Kash P. Heed MLA, former BC Solicitor General, former Chief Constable of the West Vancouver Police Dept, former head of the Vancouver Police Dept. Drug Squad, said today:



> We have been fighting a losing cause for quite some time,” he told CTV on Thursday. “I’ve witnessed it on the streets of Vancouver. We continue to try to arrest our way out of the problem. We continue to allow criminal organizations to benefit from marijuana prohibition. We should actually be regulating and taxing it.


He is joined by a large group of ex-police officers, ex-Attorney's Generals and BC Mayors in this who are all starting to realize that what we've attempted to do can never work and does far more harm than good.

I predict this is the tip of the iceberg. We will start to see more US states move this way and eventually, as was the case with alcohol prohibition, the federal government will get out of the way. If Harper plans to continue to intensify his drug war, as he had with the new laws that can put you in prison for possessing 6 pot plants, he is paddling upstream against all common sense.


----------



## eMacMan

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Good on Washington and Colorado for their successful legalization initiatives.
> 
> The BC economy will be collateral damage. Even though illegal, the black market economy in pot here is worth billions, much of it for export to Washington. Once Washingtonians can get it safely, cheaply and legally at home, that market will shrivel for the BC growers.
> 
> One side effect of that will be some of the more violent members of that black market fighting it out amongst themselves over shrinking turf. But as long as it's illegal, that black market composed of criminals, many willing to kill for the bucks, will continue. And continued prohibition will never wipe it out.
> 
> What a stupid, backward and ultimately costly decision it is to continue with the war on drugs. For what? So a few adults can't get buzzed when they choose to. It's idiotic.
> 
> Kash P. Heed MLA, former BC Solicitor General, former Chief Constable of the West Vancouver Police Dept, former head of the Vancouver Police Dept. Drug Squad, said today:
> 
> 
> 
> He is joined by a large group of ex-police officers, ex-Attorney's Generals and BC Mayors in this who are all starting to realize that what we've attempted to do can never work and does far more harm than good.
> 
> I predict this is the tip of the iceberg. We will start to see more US states move this way and eventually, as was the case with alcohol prohibition, the federal government will get out of the way. If Harper plans to continue to intensify his drug war, as he had with the new laws that can put you in prison for possessing 6 pot plants, he is paddling upstream against all common sense.


Does make you wonder how much of the Overlords profits are invested in Cons.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> No, anyone that chugs a beer is a law abiding citizen. Pot, not so much.


Sadly, anyone = everyone, and there are many beer chuggers in their early teens so therefore those individuals are the alcoholics?

Some folks are licensed to use medical marijuana and use that product to successfully treat various maladies.

Should we craft public policy to satisfy one individual to the detriment of the many?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Sadly, anyone = everyone, and there are many beer chuggers in their early teens so therefore those individuals are the alcoholics?
> 
> Some folks are licensed to use medical marijuana and use that product to successfully treat various maladies.
> 
> Should we craft public policy to satisfy one individual to the detriment of the many?


Wow, did that simple fact fly right over your head?

Let me make it easy for you:

*Beer = Legal

Marijuana = Illegal*


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Let me make it easy for you:
> 
> *Beer = Legal
> 
> Marijuana = Illegal*


This is exactly the argument I had with MacFury regarding taxes. His position was that taxation was theft. I pointed out that theft is illegal, taxation is not, therefore taxation is not theft.

So you are absolutely correct that, with the exception of those who have medical permits, pot smokers are breaking the law; just like tax evaders.

The difference here is that the vast majority of pot smokers are not harming society, whereas tax evaders are.

If MacFury or anyone else wants to argue that society would be better without government, I'm certainly interested in hearing the reasoning, but I'm skeptical that a compelling case can be made. In contrast, a very compelling argument that is well supported by logic, science and evidence from societies in which marijuana is not illegal, contends that society would be better if we legalized marijuana.

Thus, Harper's position is not supported by reason or evidence and the law regarding marijuana ought to be changed.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Wow, did that simple fact fly right over your head?
> 
> Let me make it easy for you:
> 
> *Beer = Legal
> 
> Marijuana = Illegal*


Unfortunately this argument is pretty much someone plugging their ears and shouting 'la la la la la la la la la la....'

It doesn't begin to address the glaring fact that our current policies have been a complete and total failure, not to mention a massive misuse of taxpayers money (far worse than any gun registry could hope to waste...) not to mention filling the criminal organizations pockets to fund the running of more guns, and drugs like heroin and cocaine.

If people want to continue allowing these organizations to fund themselves, that's their problem. But it's time rethink the ban on pot, 

Full disclosure, I don't use pot, but I'm tired of seeing the huge waste of money on this failure.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Wow, did that simple fact fly right over your head?
> 
> Let me make it easy for you:
> 
> *Beer = Legal
> 
> Marijuana = Illegal*


Unless as was pointed out the beer drinker is under age.

Going back to your modified original premise that somehow, because Cannabis is illegal, every user is an abuser, then surely every under age beer drinker is also an abuser. Nowadays we call alcohol abusers, alcoholics. Hence every under-age beer drinker must be an alcoholic.

Since there is no cure for alcoholism then equally by your original contention; Every beer drinker who quaffed the first one before reaching legal drinking age, is an alcoholic. That would of course include myself even though my annual beer consumption would give you a nickels change were you to hand me a six-pack.

I gotta tell ya, I do not appreciate even an indirect and obscure claim that I am an alcoholic. Especially on one of the 364 days of the year when I am completely sober.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Unless as was pointed out the beer drinker is under age.
> 
> Going back to your modified original premise that somehow, because Cannabis is illegal, every user is an abuser, then surely every under age beer drinker is also an abuser. Nowadays we call alcohol abusers, alcoholics. Hence every under-age beer drinker must be an alcoholic.
> 
> Since there is no cure for alcoholism then equally by your original contention; Every beer drinker who quaffed the first one before reaching legal drinking age, is an alcoholic. That would of course include myself even though my annual beer consumption would give you a nickels change were you to hand me a six-pack.
> 
> I gotta tell ya, I do not appreciate even an indirect and obscure claim that I am an alcoholic. Especially on one of the 364 days of the year when I am completely sober.


I think this topic ended in a similar debacle where a member was accused f being a drug addict, resulting in that member leaving.

Generally when you have nothing, just start accusing.

That's problem with this topic. I understand it can be an emotional one for some, but that's why there needs to be real discussion on a reasonable level about this. Our policies have failed horribly, and is funding the distribution of harder drugs and guns.

Whatever is decided, pot needs to be still strictly regulated just as alcohol is.


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> Sadly, anyone = everyone, and there are many beer chuggers in their early teens so therefore those individuals are the alcoholics?
> 
> Some folks are licensed to use medical marijuana and use that product to successfully treat various maladies.
> 
> Should we craft public policy to satisfy one individual to the detriment of the many?





SINC said:


> Wow, did that simple fact fly right over your head?
> 
> Let me make it easy for you:
> 
> *Beer = Legal
> 
> Marijuana = Illegal*


Both of the two facts presented were ignored so let's try one more time.

Licensed medical marijuana user = Legal

Underage (alcohol) beer user = Illegal

Should we craft public policy to satisfy one individual to the detriment of the many?


----------



## SINC

No comparison at all. One is diagnosed and prescribed by a physician, the other is a deliberate breaking of the law by an underage person. The former used by a tiny percentage of the population, the latter almost a right of passage by teens.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> No comparison at all. One is diagnosed and prescribed by a physician, the other is a deliberate breaking of the law by an underage person. The former used by a tiny percentage of the population, the latter almost a right of passage by teens.


Trying the former is increasingly becoming a right of passage by teens.


----------



## CubaMark

Y'know, we HAD this discussion ad nauseum awhile back. Can we just agree to disagree?


----------



## groovetube

at least move past the mud of whether it's currently legal, blah blah blah, and on to what should be done about the horrible failure that is the war on drugs (pot specifically).

I think we can all agree we don't want people high driving, much less drunk, nor our kids getting into hard drugs. Perhaps we have our own emotional reasons for our positions, I have lost one of my best friends to a heroin overdose (amongst others) who, incidentally, on his facebook memorial page we are recognizing what would have been his 48th birthday today, and sadness all round as we see his wonderful smart daughter asking us questions about him, (she's about 11 now, he passed when she was 3). It's really really hard, to see this.

But in the end, the problems are not getting solved with current policy. There has, to be a better way. As I said, I don't use pot, my interest isn't there. It's to see a better way of dealing with things. That's all.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Y'know, we HAD this discussion ad nauseum *awhile back*. Can we just agree to disagree?


an' back an' back... Really there is no need to re-hash this subject IMO... please excuse the double entendre...


----------



## SINC

I am quite happy with the status quo as a non user. I hope it continues to keep drugs out of the lives of Canadians.


----------



## MacGuiver

Its funny how it works. The nanny state left wing parties are busy banishing poutine, chocolate bars, and sodas from school cafeterias, putting sin taxes on fast food that aren't healthy, inspecting kids lunches to make sure mom packed one that meets with their approval, proposing tobacco style pictures of clogged arteries and diseased hearts on your snickers and spending millions on campaigns to educate kids about the ill effects of smoking tobacco. The same left turns around and pushes like hell to have it legal for everyone to smoke pot. Brilliant!


----------



## SINC

Not surprising given pot users well known appetites and dull brain power when under the influence. Odd how promoters of legalized pot use always claim to be non users, isn't it?


----------



## jef

MacGuiver said:


> Its funny how it works. The nanny state left wing parties are busy banishing poutine, chocolate bars, and sodas from school cafeterias, putting sin taxes on fast food that aren't healthy, inspecting kids lunches to make sure mom packed one that meets with their approval, proposing tobacco style pictures of clogged arteries and diseased hearts on your snickers and spending millions on campaigns to educate kids about the ill effects of smoking tobacco. The same left turns around and pushes like hell to have it legal for everyone to smoke pot. Brilliant!


Although I am not sure all of the above are strictly left wing activities, what about the nanny state right wing parties busy trying (and failing) to banish LGTB rights, interfering with a women's right to choose, flagrantly denying science and on and on. The right claims freedom as their mantra - but denies the same freedom to others. Nuts!


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Its funny how it works. The nanny state left wing parties are busy banishing poutine, chocolate bars, and sodas from school cafeterias, putting sin taxes on fast food that aren't healthy, inspecting kids lunches to make sure mom packed one that meets with their approval, proposing tobacco style pictures of clogged arteries and diseased hearts on your snickers and spending millions on campaigns to educate kids about the ill effects of smoking tobacco. The same left turns around and pushes like hell to have it legal for everyone to smoke pot. Brilliant!


Absolute nonsense. It's likely that pot would carry all the same warnings and regulations that smokes and crap foods will, and a whole lot more.

Last I checked it was still legal to smoke tobacco, drink booze and harden your arteries.

It amazes me that people would think otherwise given what is actually happening.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Not surprising given pot users well known appetites and dull brain power when under the influence. Odd how promoters of legalized pot use always claim to be non users, isn't it?


I think you need to learn to stop insinuating that people who disagree with you are users. It's a low tactic and has caused members to leave.

Stop right now thanks. It's uncalled for. If it continues I think there's no point to trying to discuss it anymore because it always ends up with you resorting to these sorts of attacks.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> *I think you need to learn to stop insinuating that people who disagree with you are users. It's a low tactic and has caused members to leave.*
> 
> Stop right now thanks. It's uncalled for. If it continues I think there's no point to trying to discuss it anymore because it always ends up with you resorting to these sorts of attacks.


A form of argument often resorted to when one looks down and realizes what they are trying to say cannot be twisted into anything resembling logic. Kind of like the way Barf Limberger tries to shout down anyone that disagrees with him.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> ...Odd how promoters of legalized pot use always claim to be non users, isn't it?


Where is your proof any of this statement is true?

Isn't it a sad state of affairs that someone would have to troll this forum in such a manner?

How many posters have to be driven away before it will stop? 

Are bullies ever satisfied?


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> I am quite happy with the status quo as a non user. I hope it continues to keep drugs out of the lives of Canadians.


I am quite unhappy with the status quo as a non-user, precisely because it is such an abject failure at keeping drugs out of our lives. The current policy does very little to reduce usage, but it does create massive profits for criminal gangs while simultaneously costing the public purse huge sums to pay for ineffective enforcement, trials and the incarceration of otherwise happy and productive citizens.

The current policy maximizes the harm drugs do to our society while minimizing the benefit.

I don't doubt that if marijuana became legal tomorrow, there would be a brief spike in usage, but I doubt it would have any lasting impact on the proportion of people in our society who smoke pot; anyone who wants to smoke pot already does. So the only impact of making it illegal is that the criminals get the profit and civil society pays the costs.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> Odd how promoters of legalized pot use always claim to be non users, isn't it?





BigDL said:


> Where is your proof any of this statement is true?
> 
> Isn't it a sad state of affairs that someone would have to troll this forum in such a manner?
> 
> How many posters have to be driven away before it will stop?
> 
> Are bullies ever satisfied?


Seems pretty clear to me. I simply noted what people are saying here and elsewhere and they said it, not me. It is in no way an accusation that they use pot, but it makes me wonder why people who do not use pot want it legalized. I'm not trying to drive away anyone or to bully anyone either. (You may want to familiarize yourself with the definition of the word.) So far, bryanc has given the best reason for a non user to want it legalized. While I don't agree with his views and as I said am happy with current law, I don't resort to calling other members bullies or trolls for having a point of view. I wish you could show some restraint and do the same BigDL. And BTW, here is the proof you asked for:



groovetube said:


> As I said, I don't use pot, my interest isn't there. It's to see a better way of dealing with things. That's all.





bryanc said:


> I am quite unhappy with the status quo as a non-user, precisely because it is such an abject failure at keeping drugs out of our lives.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Seems pretty clear to me. I simply noted what people are saying here and elsewhere and they said it, not me. It is in no way an accusation that they use pot, but it makes me wonder why people who do not use pot want it legalized. I'm not trying to drive away anyone or to bully anyone either. (You may want to familiarize yourself with the definition of the word.) So far, bryanc has given the best reason for a non user to want it legalized. While I don't agree with his views and as I said am happy with current law, I don't resort to calling other members bullies or trolls for having a point of view. I wish you could show some restraint and do the same BigDL. And BTW, here is the proof you asked for:


SINC, i believe that it is only a coincidence that some supporters of pot legalization write and reason as though they are under the influence.


----------



## i-rui

^^ as a libertarian don't you support the legalization of pot?

does that make you a user by default?


----------



## Rps

I have a problem with the legalise movement. First, the leglaisation in some jurisdictions south of the border only makes matters worse here. Unless there is a standardised law, we will have border trouble ( you only have to see jurisdictions that border each other with variance in drinking ages ). Second, we tend to monetise everything....if it brings in money then let's do it......so why not legalise the sex trade? I know, why not have pre-screened users of child pornography ( we'll only show it to those who fit a "non-escalate" mould, we can make money that way ), Can't stop illegal cigarettes coming into the province, change the laws to meet the demand. Sooner or later we have to stop using social policy as a form of tax base ...


----------



## Rps

Let me add one further small point on the legalisation of pot ..... there is evidence it is beneficial for those with MS, cancer and such .... these people should be given the benefit of use similar to all prescription drugs.....


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> ^^ as a libertarian don't you support the legalization of pot?
> 
> does that make you a user by default?


I support the legalization of any narcotic--provided the legal system holds people fully responsible for what they do after choosing to be under the influence.

But I pointed out to SINC that support of pot legalization does not make one a user.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> I have a problem with the legalise movement. First, the leglaisation in some jurisdictions south of the border only makes matters worse here. Unless there is a standardised law, we will have border trouble ( you only have to see jurisdictions that border each other with variance in drinking ages ). Second, we tend to monetise everything....if it brings in money then let's do it......so why not legalise the sex trade? I know, why not have pre-screened users of child pornography ( we'll only show it to those who fit a "non-escalate" mould, we can make money that way ), Can't stop illegal cigarettes coming into the province, change the laws to meet the demand. Sooner or later we have to stop using social policy as a form of tax base ...


wait a second, child pornography? Allowing illegally manufactured cigarettes? Now we're getting into the 'fornicating in the streets' territory here.

Let's say whoa here, and look at reality. I don't think anyone (well except fr some users I suspect) are thinking unfettered access to, ability to grow and sell is a good idea. 

While I see the total failure of our pot laws at curbing use (let's get real there...) and minimizing harm, I still believe it should be heavily regulated, just as alcohol and cigarettes are.


----------



## Rps

Yes Groove, but then you need extra control on the license points ........ that's where there will be problems if we go that far, that's certainly an open door for organised crime, and since we can't seem to stop it now, how will we then.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> I have a problem with the legalise movement. First, the leglaisation in some jurisdictions south of the border only makes matters worse here. Unless there is a standardised law, we will have border trouble ( you only have to see jurisdictions that border each other with variance in drinking ages ). Second, we tend to monetise everything....if it brings in money then let's do it......so why not legalise the sex trade? I know, why not have pre-screened users of child pornography ( we'll only show it to those who fit a "non-escalate" mould, we can make money that way ), Can't stop illegal cigarettes coming into the province, change the laws to meet the demand. Sooner or later we have to stop using social policy as a form of tax base ...


To paraphrase Vic Towes "if your not for legalization then your with the organized criminals."


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Yes Groove, but then you need extra control on the license points ........ that's where there will be problems if we go that far, that's certainly an open door for organised crime, and since we can't seem to stop it now, how will we then.


I don't quite follow.


----------



## eMacMan

As a non-user I support legalization of Cannabis for exactly the same reasons that Prohibition was eventually struck down. 

Making the crap illegal, supports the drug dealers and denies the nation of a potential source of tax revenue. A revenue source that would be least as lucrative as tobacco and alcohol taxes. A tax that like tobacco and alcohol taxes benefits non-users, but does not tax them.

That said the same rules that ban tobacco in public places should equally apply to Cannabis. Non-users should not have that stench shoved in their faces.


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> I don't quite follow.


The stuff has to be grown somewhere, so the only way to control it is by the state offering licensed locations .... similar to the wine industry, where the holding of a license can be worth more than the actual crop itself. If we legalise pot, then the most valuable commodity will be the license to grow and distribute .....


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> The stuff has to be grown somewhere, so the only way to control it is by the state offering licensed locations .... similar to the wine industry, where the holding of a license can be worth more than the actual crop itself. If we legalise pot, then the most valuable commodity will be the license to grow and distribute .....


I think I see your point here. Licenses are most likely to go to those that pull the politicians strings. Perhaps the very same dealers and distributers that legalization would be trying to put out of business.

Come to think of it I believe more than a few prominent families got that way thanks to Prohibition and its subsequent repeal.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> To paraphrase Vic Towes "if your not for legalization then your with the organized criminals."


That statement was made in regard to internet porn and has nothing at all to do with pot legalization.


----------



## bryanc

Rps said:


> so why not legalise the sex trade?


Why not indeed? If one starts with the premise that consenting adults should be free to have sex with whomever they choose for whatever reasons they choose, it follows that someone choosing to have sex in exchange for money is nobody's business but their own.

Like the drug trade, what makes the sex trade dangerous and harmful to those involved is it's very illegality. If it were legal, the violence and abuse associated with prostitution would largely disappear. The pimps would be the only losers, in the same way that only the drug dealers would loose from legalizing pot. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch'o guys if you ask me.



> I know, why not have pre-screened users of child pornography


False equivalency. Child pornography is not something involving consenting adults. This is a child protection issue, not a sex-trade issue. I realize that our definition of 'adult' is arbitrary, but that is a necessary limitation of our legal system, not a moral issue. Given that we have to draw the line somewhere, once someone is past that line society must respect their right to choose for themselves.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> The stuff has to be grown somewhere, so the only way to control it is by the state offering licensed locations .... similar to the wine industry, where the holding of a license can be worth more than the actual crop itself. If we legalise pot, then the most valuable commodity will be the license to grow and distribute .....


Not necessarily. And if the licence is so valuable then that goes into the government coffers to benefit all non users as well, instead of criminal organizations to fund worse activities. Perhaps initially there's the great desire to have the licence, simply because it's been illegal for so long, and as Bryanc pointed out, there'll probably be that initial wee we can smoke legally now! but that will quickly wear off, and as many other examples of relaxed pot laws shows, it doesn't lead to the sort of problems you describe at all.

Contrary to what others would have you believe, legalizing isn't going to lead to increased use, it's been shown over and over again. There is absolutely no real evidence that keeping it illegal does any public good whatsoever, and simply costs us huge tax dollars, and actually does more harm than good.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Why not indeed? If one starts with the premise that consenting adults should be free to have sex with whomever they choose for whatever reasons they choose, it follows that someone choosing to have sex in exchange for money is nobody's business but their own.
> 
> Like the drug trade, what makes the sex trade dangerous and harmful to those involved is it's very illegality. If it were legal, the violence and abuse associated with prostitution would largely disappear. The pimps would be the only losers, in the same way that only the drug dealers would loose from legalizing pot. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch'o guys if you ask me.
> 
> 
> 
> False equivalency. Child pornography is not something involving consenting adults. This is a child protection issue, not a sex-trade issue. I realize that our definition of 'adult' is arbitrary, but that is a necessary limitation of our legal system, not a moral issue. Given that we have to draw the line somewhere, once someone is past that line society must respect their right to choose for themselves.


:clap:


----------



## Rps

bryanc said:


> Given that we have to draw the line somewhere,


bryanc, sorry to cherry pick on the quote, but I think this sums up the problem nicely .... where does one draw the line. What I see happening today is not where to draw the line, but how wide.................


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> False equivalency. Child pornography is not something involving consenting adults. This is a child protection issue, not a sex-trade issue. I realize that our definition of 'adult' is arbitrary, but that is a necessary limitation of our legal system, not a moral issue. Given that we have to draw the line somewhere, once someone is past that line society must respect their right to choose for themselves.


Agreed.


----------



## Rps

bryanc, while I agree with your comments ( the child porn was for shock value not as a point in logical argument .... but of course you knew that ) , I still think we need to really look at our habit of trying to "monetise" social issues as a method of cure and support. I'm not a prude here, but I equate this to the current building standards. You can have a house that is brand new and falls down that meets code and one that is 150 years old and does not. It's not any one thing but the constant shaving of individual codes in pursuit of econonmies that contributes to the collaspe ...why are societies any different.


----------



## bryanc

Rps said:


> You can have a house that is brand new and falls down that meets code and one that is 150 years old and does not. It's not any one thing but the constant shaving of individual codes in pursuit of econonmies that contributes to the collaspe ...why are societies any different.


The analogy may be a bit stretched, but I do think the laws we make are a significant component of the materials of our society. Well-considered legislation makes for a strong society, but even the soundly built aspects of our society may need renovation from time to time as conditions change.

Getting back to the topic of marijuana and/or prostitution; in both cases I think the laws we have were ill-considered in the first place, and regardless of whatever utility they may once have had, the status quo is clearly detrimental to society on both counts.

In general, I favour 'go slow' approaches to societal change in order to avoid 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater.' But in these cases I think the status quo is completely broken, so there's no baby to save; we should completely re-examine all the laws regarding all controlled substances and prostitution using authoritative, evidence-based analysis of the impacts these issues have on society and the empirical facts illustrating the abject failure of the current legal system to mitigate the damage. I strongly suspect that any rational analysis would support the legalization of marijuana, and the decriminalization of hard drugs so that addiction can be treated as a medical/mental health issue rather than a criminal issue. Similarly the legalization of prostitution would provide sex trade workers with police protection, health care and more and better routes out of the social trap many find themselves in, as well as a significant tax revenue for governments to support social programs mitigating these perennial issues.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> But in these cases I think the status quo is completely broken, so there's no baby to save; we should completely re-examine all the laws regarding all controlled substances and prostitution using authoritative, evidence-based analysis of the impacts these issues have on society and the empirical facts illustrating the abject failure of the current legal system to mitigate the damage. I strongly suspect that any rational analysis would support the legalization of marijuana, and the decriminalization of hard drugs so that addiction can be treated as a medical/mental health issue rather than a criminal issue.


Again, ensure that existing laws are enforced and ensure that "I was on drugs at the time" can not be used as a defense for any damage caused by an individual.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Again, ensure that existing laws are enforced and ensure that "I was on drugs at the time" can not be used as a defense for any damage caused by an individual.


So we would treat transgressors as we do, say, drunk drivers..... I would support that.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Again, ensure that existing laws are enforced and ensure that "I was on drugs at the time" can not be used as a defense for any damage caused by an individual.


Absolutely.

That being said, my experience with people who have been smoking marijuana is that the biggest threat they represent is to one's patience. While I would never condone driving while impaired by any substance, I'd far prefer to encounter a stoned driver than a drunk driver; the stoned driver will likely be going way *under* the speed limit, hyper-aware of every pebble on the road and ultra-cautious. Certainly preferable to the drunk.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> So we would treat transgressors as we do, say, drunk drivers..... I would support that.


I would argue that a move to legalize marijuana should include a tightening up of all impaired driving laws. Naturally, we would need to legally define "impaired" with regard to cannabis use.


----------



## groovetube

I think it already is. 

The truth is, whether or not we end up legalizing pot, lots of people smoke it, and some are dumb enough to try and drive, so this has to be dealt with regardless.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> The analogy may be a bit stretched, but I do think the laws we make are a significant component of the materials of our society. Well-considered legislation makes for a strong society, but even the soundly built aspects of our society may need renovation from time to time as conditions change.
> 
> Getting back to the topic of marijuana and/or prostitution; in both cases I think the laws we have were ill-considered in the first place, and regardless of whatever utility they may once have had, the status quo is clearly detrimental to society on both counts.
> 
> In general, I favour 'go slow' approaches to societal change in order to avoid 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater.' But in these cases I think the status quo is completely broken, so there's no baby to save; we should completely re-examine all the laws regarding all controlled substances and prostitution using authoritative, evidence-based analysis of the impacts these issues have on society and the empirical facts illustrating the abject failure of the current legal system to mitigate the damage. I strongly suspect that any rational analysis would support the legalization of marijuana, and the decriminalization of hard drugs so that addiction can be treated as a medical/mental health issue rather than a criminal issue. Similarly the legalization of prostitution would provide sex trade workers with police protection, health care and more and better routes out of the social trap many find themselves in, as well as a significant tax revenue for governments to support social programs mitigating these perennial issues.


Which leaves us trying to un-moron an oxymoron. Specifically intelligent legislation. If ever there was an insurmountable roadblock to solving a problem expecting this or any North American government to put together intelligent legislation is that roadblock.


----------



## screature

Let's just be clear... we are not talking about the *legalization* of pot even in the states that voted.

It was a vote to *decriminalize possession* under a certain amount (1 ounce) not legalization... 

Even alcohol is still a substance that is controlled in it's production, sale and consumption by legislation with penalties for those who produce, sell or consume it in ways that are not in conjunction with the relevant laws and regulations.

I really wish people would get the use of the terms straight as it only does a disservice to the dialogue when they are used incorrectly.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> bryanc, while I agree with your comments ( the child porn was for shock value not as a point in logical argument .... but of course you knew that ) , *I still think we need to really look at our habit of trying to "monetise" social issues as a method of cure and support.* I'm not a prude here, but I equate this to the current building standards. You can have a house that is brand new and falls down that meets code and one that is 150 years old and does not. It's not any one thing but the constant shaving of individual codes in pursuit of econonmies that contributes to the collaspe ...why are societies any different.


So what method do you propose as an alternative? 

If the "cure" (which criminalization has never been) is more costly than the disease (which it undoubtedly is) is it not better to realize a monetary benefit that can be used by society as a whole, i.e. taxation and redistribution, as opposed to the profits simply going to line the pockets of criminal overlords and their henchmen?

And BTW there is no *cure* for the use of intoxicants by human beings. They always have been and always will be used. Just like prostitution, it has always existed and will always exist. To think otherwise is to simply ignore history and human nature.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> So what method do you propose as an alternative?
> 
> If the "cure" (which criminalization has never been) is more costly than the disease (which it undoubtedly is) is it not better to realize a monetary benefit that can be used by society as a whole, i.e. taxation and redistribution, as opposed to the profits simply going to line the pockets of criminal overlords and their henchmen?
> 
> And BTW there is no *cure* for the use of intoxicants by human beings. They always have been and always will be used. Just like prostitution, it has always existed and will always exist. To think otherwise is to simply ignore history and human nature.


I have to agree with your sentiments. 

The cost savings of decriminalizing Cannabis and prostitution coupled with the additional tax revenues would probably move Canada from deficit to surplus. Could certainly help some provincial budgets as well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Let's just be clear... we are not talking about the *legalization* of pot even in the states that voted.
> 
> It was a vote to *decriminalize possession* under a certain amount (1 ounce) not legalization...
> 
> Even alcohol is still a substance that is controlled in it's production, sale and consumption by legislation with penalties for those who produce, sell or consume it in ways that are not in conjunction with the relevant laws and regulations.
> 
> I really wish people would get the use of the terms straight as it only does a disservice to the dialogue when they are used incorrectly.


You're wrong. 

Take a look at Washington Marijuana Legalization and Regulation, Initiative 502 

While they are talking about small amounts they are also talking about a fully regulated system of production and distribution, all fully legal, not just decriminalized. Very similar initiative in Colorado too, amendment 64.


----------



## jimbotelecom

eMacMan said:


> I have to agree with your sentiments.
> 
> The cost savings of decriminalizing Cannabis and prostitution coupled with the additional tax revenues would probably move Canada from deficit to surplus. Could certainly help some provincial budgets as well.


Dr. Ernie Small is one of the leading experts in the world on hemp and marijauna and he is a federal civil servant. He and his team are responsible for the high (LOL!) quality reputation that Canadian medicinal marijauna enjoys around the world. Strains of his work are available for sale in Holland's coffee shops and they are top sellers. My thinking is it's a matter of time before governments across Canada regulate manufacturing and distribution of cannabis. It certainly will not happen under the current federal government. Time for change.


----------



## Rps

screature, I'm not sure what the solution is, if I did I would be in Ottawa right now.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> Take a look at Washington Marijuana Legalization and Regulation, Initiative 502
> 
> While they are talking about small amounts they are also talking about a fully regulated system of production and distribution, all fully legal, not just decriminalized. Very similar initiative in Colorado too, amendment 64.


Sigh...

No you are wrong.



> Initiative 502 defined and distinguished marijuana from other parts of the cannabis plant, legalizing small amounts of marijuana-related products for most adults, to tax them, and designate the revenue for healthcare and substance-abuse prevention and education.* Cannabis is still classified as a schedule I controlled substance under federal law and subject to federal prosecution under the doctrine of dual sovereignty. Possession by anyone younger than 21, possession of larger amounts, and the growing of unlicensed or unregulated marijuana remains illegal under state law.*


Washington Initiative 502

Seems you have little understanding of the differentiation's under the law. It remains a controlled substance with laws and regulations controlling its production, sale and consumption... just as I said. It is only within strict parameters that one can produce, sell or consume cannabis. If it were fully legalized these restrictions would not exist.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sigh...
> 
> No you are wrong.
> 
> 
> Washington Initiative 502
> 
> Seems you have little understanding of the differentiation's under the law. *It remains a controlled substance with laws and regulations controlling its production, sale and consumption.*.. just as I said. It seems your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking.


It appears, that that was actually what Jimbo was saying.


jimbotelecom said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> Take a look at Washington Marijuana Legalization and Regulation, Initiative 502
> 
> While they are talking about small amounts *they are also talking about a fully regulated system of production and distribution, all fully legal, not just decriminalized. Very similar initiative in Colorado too, amendment 64*.


----------



## BigDL

jimbotelecom said:


> dr. Ernie small is one of the leading experts in the world on hemp and marijauna and he is a federal civil servant. He and his team are responsible for the high (lol!) quality reputation that canadian medicinal marijauna enjoys around the world. Strains of his work are available for sale in holland's coffee shops and they are top sellers. My thinking is it's a matter of time before governments across canada regulate manufacturing and distribution of cannabis. It certainly will not happen under the current federal government. Time for change.


+1


----------



## screature

Here is the actual Bill Request:

Initiative 502 - Washington Secretary of State

You will find that nowhere does it state that cannabis is legal just that in certain *tightly controlled/regulated* circumstances the production, sale and consumption of cannabis do not constitute a criminal or civil offence.

Just because the common "parlance" regarding what is going to happen that is being bandied about refers to it as is legalization does not mean it is legalization. Read the Bill. 

PART I INTENT
NEW SECTION. Sec. 1. The people intend to *stop treating adult marijuana use as a crime* and try a new approach that:
(1) Allows law enforcement resources to be focused on violent and property crimes;
(2) Generates new state and local tax revenue for education, health care, research, and substance abuse prevention; and
(3) Takes marijuana out of the hands of illegal drug organizations and* brings it under a tightly regulated, state-licensed system similar to that for controlling hard alcohol.
This measure authorizes the state liquor control board to regulate and tax marijuana* for persons twenty-one years of age and older, and add a new threshold for driving under the influence of marijuana.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Dr. Ernie Small is one of the leading experts in the world on hemp and marijauna and he is a federal civil servant. He and his team are responsible for the high (LOL!) quality reputation that Canadian medicinal marijauna enjoys around the world. Strains of his work are available for sale in Holland's coffee shops and they are top sellers. My thinking is it's a matter of time before governments across Canada regulate manufacturing and distribution of cannabis. *It certainly will not happen under the current federal government.* Time for change.


Nor any federal government until there is a ground swell of the passing of such propositions in many, many more States.

Until that happens no federal Canadian government will make such a move. Even then, lest people forget, border crossings are still under federal jurisdiction not state jurisdiction. The cost of clogging up the border crossings with every car and truck being pulled over to search it for cannabis would just be inordinately high. Not to mention the threat of possible trade sanctions by the US. 

Some people seem to look at this issue in isolation without any thought to the real world ramifications and complications that go beyond the desire to smoke up without penalty.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Nor any federal government until there is a ground swell of the passing of such propositions in many, many more States.
> 
> Until that happens no federal Canadian government will make such a move. Even then, lest people forget, border crossings are still under federal jurisdiction not state jurisdiction. The cost of clogging up the border crossings with every car and truck being pulled over to search it for cannabis would just be inordinately high. Not to mention the threat of possible trade sanctions by the US.
> 
> Some people seem to look at this issue in isolation without any thought to the real world ramifications and complications that go beyond the desire to smoke up without penalty.


Wait a second... I don't think many people are thinking only to 'smoke pot legally'. To say this completely ignores the arguments for legalizing that have been made, and insinuates that anyone who argues for legalizing simply want to smoke pot legally.

Why does it always need to go there? Can we possibly discuss without these insinuations?


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Some people seem to look at this issue in isolation without any thought to the real world ramifications and complications that go beyond the desire to smoke up without penalty.


I have no desire to smoke anything, with or without penalty; that does not change the fact that our current criminalization of marijuana costs our society inordinate sums of money, not to mention the catastrophic effects it has on the lives of many otherwise productive members of society.

If changing the status quo requires significant changes to how we operate our borders, that seems a small price to pay. If the fact that making changes requires some effort be made and difficulties overcome stopped people, nothing would ever get done.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I have no desire to smoke anything, with or without penalty; that *does not change the fact that our current criminalization of marijuana costs our society inordinate sums of money, not to mention the catastrophic effects it has on the lives of many otherwise productive members of society.*
> 
> If changing the status quo requires significant changes to how we operate our borders, that seems a small price to pay. If the fact that making changes requires some effort be made and difficulties overcome stopped people, nothing would ever get done.


I don't disagree and have already said as much. 

However to think that wholesale political/legal change can be brought about without consideration of the circumstances necessary to bring about such change is quite simply naive and lacks understanding of the dynamics at play.


----------



## groovetube

I think most people are only too keenly aware of the challenges involved, and that the path to a better policy and how to best regulate is not going to be without great challenges and work.

I think this very thread is quite the indication of this!


----------



## BigDL

The battle for the hearts and minds against marijuana prohibition has been lost. Prohibition is not working. The policing model is making criminals out of other wise law abiding citizens. 

There is great economic activity lost to the reported economy. There is support for organized crime in the black market/underground economy with the policy of prohibition. 

There is and has been much waste of fiscal capacity on a proven futile effort to enforce the policy of prohibition. 

The times they are a changing, be ahead of the change or be run over by it. Your choice.


----------



## eMacMan

I think the very fact that the big time drug dealers clearly want Prohibition to continue should be sufficient argument to deep six the policy.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I think the very fact that the big time drug dealers clearly want Prohibition to continue should be sufficient argument to deep six the policy.


Agreed.There are people less violent than drug dealers willing to turn minds to mush.


----------



## groovetube

And given the people have no free will of their own, they'll have to be force fed the pot.

I see where the logic in that is.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Nor any federal government until there is a ground swell of the passing of such propositions in many, many more States.
> 
> Until that happens no federal Canadian government will make such a move. Even then, lest people forget, border crossings are still under federal jurisdiction not state jurisdiction. The cost of clogging up the border crossings with every car and truck being pulled over to search it for cannabis would just be inordinately high. Not to mention the threat of possible trade sanctions by the US.
> 
> Some people seem to look at this issue in isolation without any thought to the real world ramifications and complications that go beyond the desire to smoke up without penalty.


Except that in Vancouver there are established Marijuana smoke dens in operation right now. I can see Quebec following suit. 

I agree that a combination of provincial pressure and a change of government in the federal scene will make this a reality. The tax $$$$ are to die for.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> The tax $$$$ are to die for.


Seriously? I'll bet that most heavy users will take one look at cigarette-priced marijuana and decide that home-grown is better.


----------



## groovetube

Ever hear of what an ounce goes for these days? A couple years ago someone mentioned the cost and I was shocked that anyone would spend that, compared to what I recall in high school. I can only imagine what it is now.

If anything, I can predict it would drop the cost compared to what people are paying for in street prices. Any hardcore user who goes through all the trouble and grows their own now will likely still do so. So what.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Seriously? I'll bet that most heavy users will take one look at cigarette-priced marijuana and decide that home-grown is better.


Probably, but heavy users are a very small fraction of the population. The same argument holds for beer drinkers. You can brew your own beer easily and for a tiny fraction of what it costs to buy commercially, yet most consumers choose to pay this inflated (and heavily taxed) price for the convenience. It's not even that commercial beer is so much better tasting than home-brewed beer (based on my experience). So I strongly suspect that legalized marijuana would be a massive tax windfall for whatever government is smart enough to implement it.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Seriously? I'll bet that most heavy users will take one look at cigarette-priced marijuana and decide that home-grown is better.


Could be. As much as home brewers and vintners see value in DIY. The majority will opt for the store bought out of sheer convenience. We are a lazy species.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> Probably, but heavy users are a very small fraction of the population. The same argument holds for beer drinkers. You can brew your own beer easily and for a tiny fraction of what it costs to buy commercially, yet most consumers choose to pay this inflated (and heavily taxed) price for the convenience. It's not even that commercial beer is so much better tasting than home-brewed beer (based on my experience). So I strongly suspect that legalized marijuana would be a massive tax windfall for whatever government is smart enough to implement it.


A good homebrew beer is far superior to the mass production commercial varieties and will hold its own against the better craft beers. The reason most drinkers do not brew their own is the same as the reason most Cannabis users deal with dealers. There is work involved!


----------



## jimbotelecom

bryanc said:


> Probably, but heavy users are a very small fraction of the population. The same argument holds for beer drinkers. You can brew your own beer easily and for a tiny fraction of what it costs to buy commercially, yet most consumers choose to pay this inflated (and heavily taxed) price for the convenience. It's not even that commercial beer is so much better tasting than home-brewed beer (based on my experience). So I strongly suspect that legalized marijuana would be a massive tax windfall for whatever government is smart enough to implement it.


Previously. I used to home brew from scratch and I had my costs down to roughly 11 cents per stubby. That was not quite 20 years ago.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Probably, but heavy users are a very small fraction of the population. The same argument holds for beer drinkers. You can brew your own beer easily and for a tiny fraction of what it costs to buy commercially, yet most consumers choose to pay this inflated (and heavily taxed) price for the convenience. It's not even that commercial beer is so much better tasting than home-brewed beer (based on my experience). So I strongly suspect that legalized marijuana would be a massive tax windfall for whatever government is smart enough to implement it.


My understanding is that marijuana is fairly easy to cultivate in single-user quantities--but I have no experience at it.


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing brew your own beer is much much easier. I've heard enough stories of failed attempts of growing pot. Jimbo is right, for the most part, people are going to just buy it legally.


----------



## bryanc

It's called 'weed' for a reason; it's not hard to grow. However, harvesting, drying, etc. takes some effort. And for the same reasons you don't see many people growing their own tobacco, most people who want to smoke pot will buy it (and pay the taxes on it if it's legal).


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It's called 'weed' for a reason; it's not hard to grow. However, harvesting, drying, etc. takes some effort. And for the same reasons you don't see many people growing their own tobacco, most people who want to smoke pot will buy it (and pay the taxes on it if it's legal).


I used to live in tobacco country and it isn't something you would try yourself except on a mass scale. The curing process is intensive. However, I agree that most people would be too lazy to grow pot themselves. I've made my own ice cream before--great product, but hard work.


----------



## SINC

I gotta admit, I must lead a sheltered life. All these people telling me how first, they don't use pot, but are so fully informed on how to grow it, or how easy it is to grow, or how hard it is to grow, or how expensive it is to buy, makes me suspect why any non user would know so much? But then again, that's just me asking questions, no accusations implied. I know nothing about the product nor the process of growing. I do know it is illegal and a danger to those of us who do not use it.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I gotta admit, I must lead a sheltered life. All these people telling me how first, they don't use pot, but are so fully informed on how to grow it, or how easy it is to grow, or how hard it is to grow, or how expensive it is to buy, makes me suspect why any non user would know so much? But then again, that's just me asking questions, no accusations implied. I know nothing about the product nor the process of growing. I do know it is illegal and a danger to those of us who do not use it.


Yes you would be quite sheltered. It doesn't take much to hear many details, hell most non users know more details than I do, and know many who use it. It's far more prevalent than you likely realize. I know lots of people who smoke pot, and you'd have to be deaf and dumb not too hear the latest once in a while.

I know though, that posting what I did know, at macfurys urging (no less...) would compel you to once again, publicly try to defame someone. No accusations, but, hey, you gotta wonder eh? As I said, you've done this several times before, and I would ask you once again, to can it.

It goes against the rules of the forum, not that you seem to care now do you. For whatever reason you got away with defaming another good member like this who ended up never returning.

Hopefully once again, we can get back to chatting about the topic, without being rudely interrupted by this childish nonsense.

In context, here's the other veiled accusation:


SINC said:


> Not surprising given pot users well known appetites and dull brain power when under the influence. *Odd how promoters of legalized pot use always claim to be non users, isn't it?*


Is that really necessary????


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> I gotta admit, I must lead a sheltered life. All these people telling me how first, they don't use pot, but are so fully informed on how to grow it, or how easy it is to grow, or how hard it is to grow, or how expensive it is to buy, makes me suspect why any non user would know so much?


Indeed you must lead a very sheltered life. I can only think of one or two people I know who've never tried it, and it's rare to find a university student that does not smoke pot at least once in a while. Given that it is a ubiquitous and relatively harmless intoxicant, it's hard to imagine how an adult could be unaware of these sorts of facts; perhaps you're known to harbour an irrational streak on the subject and people actively avoid it around you.



> I do know it is illegal and a danger to those of us who do not use it.


About as dangerous as aspirin. But yes, it is illegal, and that's what we have to fix.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I gotta admit, I must lead a sheltered life. All these people telling me how first, they don't use pot, but are so fully informed on how to grow it, or how easy it is to grow, or how hard it is to grow, or how expensive it is to buy, makes me suspect why any non user would know so much? But then again, that's just me asking questions, no accusations implied. I know nothing about the product nor the process of growing. I do know it is illegal and a danger to those of us who do not use it.


I ain't buying it.

Knowing what makes a car engine more powerful doesn't make an individual a driver let alone a mechanic. Canadians knowing the basic play of hockey does not mean you step the ice to play or that you are even inconvenienced by the NHL Lockout.

The discussion is one of public policy. Is the prohibition of cannabis a viable policy or not? Is the government's actions with regard to the prohibition of cannabis an effective use of money and resources? Will the control and taxation cannabis help governments? What are possible un-entended consequences should cannabis be decriminalized/leagalized?

These are the matters under discussion. Let's stay on topic and not sideswipe the discussion into the ditch, please.


----------



## SINC

^

I see. Did the new owners appoint you a mod recently? I didn't hear about that. When did this happen?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I ain't buying it.
> 
> Knowing what makes a car engine more powerful doesn't make an individual a driver let alone a mechanic. Canadians knowing the basic play of hockey does not mean you step the ice to play or that you are even inconvenienced by the NHL Lockout.
> 
> The discussion is one of public policy. Is the prohibition of cannabis a viable policy or not? Is the government's actions with regard to the prohibition of cannabis an effective use of money and resources? Will the control and taxation cannabis help governments? What are possible un-entended consequences should cannabis be decriminalized/leagalized?
> 
> These are the matters under discussion. Let's stay on topic and not sideswipe the discussion into the ditch, please.


yes let's keep it on topic, and not let the interruptions and veiled accusations prevent this from being debated.

Read this on thinkprogress (lefty, I know...) 220 Marijuana Cases Dismissed In Washington State

It'll be very interesting, with Obama in office in his last term, what occurs here.


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> Y'know, we HAD this discussion ad nauseum awhile back. Can we just agree to disagree?





SINC said:


> ^
> 
> I see. Did the new owners appoint you a mod recently? I didn't hear about that. When did this happen?


 No, hardly!

We are in the Canadian Political Thread. The recent proposition of dealing with cannabis, in another manner, other than prohibition, in Washington State and Colorado, two States bordering Canada caused people to pause and want to consider: 

how this will affect the present Canadian government?;

how will this affect future Canadian governments decisions?

If a poster, with free will, wishes to derail the discussion, that's on them.


----------



## jimbotelecom

^^^^^^^^^
Last time I looked Colorado was placed well in the centre of the US. Washington does border BC Canada's growing capital.
If you want a good chuckle take a look at Nelson B.C. which has the lowest per capita inhabitant to restaurant ratio in North America.
People are making so much money in the pot industry there that they eat out all the time.....lots of disposable cash. The RCMP cast a blind eye to everything that's going on. I'm sure there is an accepted accounting practice for the Dawson economy through revenue Canada. Point is that legal government entities are already tolerating what is an illegal substance.


----------



## kps

jimbotelecom said:


> The RCMP cast a blind eye to everything that's going on. I'm sure there is an accepted accounting practice for the Dawson economy through revenue Canada. *Point is that legal government entities are already tolerating what is an illegal substance.*


...and not making a single dime <pun intended> off of it. Dumb asses.

I haven't smoked in decades, it never did much for me. Either made me hungry or sleepy (if I mixed with booze). It wasn't my gateway drug for other chit either. 

I say the government should legalize it and milk it for all that it's worth in terms of revenue. Auction off the growing rights to the highest vetted bidders, auction off the packaging rights, auction off the distribution rights or give provinces the option to distribute, license retailers (provinces), tax the crap out of it. Put all the money into health care. Done!


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> ...and not making a single dime <pun intended> off of it. Dumb asses.
> 
> I haven't smoked in decades, it never did much for me. Either made me hungry or sleepy (if I mixed with booze). It wasn't my gateway drug for other chit either.
> 
> I say the government should legalize it and milk it for all that it's worth in terms of revenue. Auction off the growing rights to the highest vetted bidders, auction off the packaging rights, auction off the distribution rights or give provinces the option to distribute, license retailers (provinces), tax the crap out of it. Put all the money into health care. Done!


:clap:

Oh and me too. Many years ago I decided it just made me anti social, and that wasn't my idea of fun. I prefer my single malts


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> I gotta admit, I must lead a sheltered life. All these people telling me how first, they don't use pot, but are so fully informed on how to grow it, or how easy it is to grow, or how hard it is to grow, or how expensive it is to buy, makes me suspect why any non user would know so much? But then again, that's just me asking questions, no accusations implied. I know nothing about the product nor the process of growing. I do know it is illegal and a danger to those of us who do not use it.


Yes, you do lead a sheltered life. Or more accurately, it's probably generational; my parents wouldn't know any more about this than you do.

But among my peers? The vast majority does not use marijuana, but at the same time almost everyone knows how to find out how to acquire it. I don't know the price but I know I could find out within a couple of calls. Growing it? It's a high-sun plant, that's something made clear in a lot of movies. To grow it is not hard--it does, in fact, grow on its own in places. To grow something high-quality is like any other plant; you need to give the plant ideal conditions, which can be harder to do. (Same principle is used with greenhouse grown florist flowers vs. well-tended garden flowers vs. neglected flowers.)

And no, I don't use it. Tried it once or twice in university, much like I tried (tobacco) cigarettes once or twice, much like I tried dipping tobacco once or twice, much like I've tried cigars once or twice, much like I tried booze once or twice in high school. Of all of these vices I tried in illegal circumstances, the only one I continue is alcohol and even at that, I might have a glass of wine a week. 

Illegal? Sure. Dangerous to non-users? I don't believe that's universally true. 

How to acquire it was something I actively thought about when my MIL started chemotherapy. She had a fairIy easy time of as, as these things go, so it wasn't something I needed to pursue. I don't know if it's something she would have considered but if it was something that could have helped her and that she wanted to try, I could have easily gotten that for her.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

The Halifax Herald has got to have the worst editorial cartoons in the country. Over-reliance on people holding signs is a bad and lazy habit.


----------



## groovetube

well, the cartoon did it's trick...


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Quite the impact, CM. Sadly, it is all too true, at least for many of the vets here in NL.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Quite the impact, CM. Sadly, it is all too true, at least for many of the vets here in NL.


It seems the veterans most praised by this government are the remains of those in the cavalcade that travel the "Highway of Heroes." 

Fixed costs seem to be much appreciated by those in charge.

The newly inaugurated Veterans Week glorifies the deceased, but the maimed are not the focus of the messaging. 

Whether Armed Forces personal are physically or other wise permanently injured these folks seem to have been forgotten with messaging and with care and support. There is an attempt to have fixed cost for the maimed, much to the detriment of the veterans.

The message of de Adder is indeed spot on.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> It seems the veterans most praised by this government are the remains of those in the cavalcade that travel the "Highway of Heroes."
> 
> Fixed costs seem to be much appreciated by those in charge.
> 
> The newly inaugurated Veterans Week glorifies the deceased, but the maimed are not the focus of the messaging.
> 
> Whether Armed Forces personal are physically or other wise permanently injured these folks seem to have been forgotten with messaging and with care and support. There is an attempt to have fixed cost for the maimed, much to the detriment of the veterans.
> 
> The message of de Adder is indeed spot on.


All too true, BigDL. Hopefully, should the vets ever march on Parliament, they will fare better than the "bonus marchers" who marched on Washington, DC in July, 1932.

"President Herbert Hoover then ordered the army to clear the veterans' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded the infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned."


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> It seems the veterans most praised by this government are the remains of those in the cavalcade that travel the "Highway of Heroes."
> 
> Fixed costs seem to be much appreciated by those in charge.
> 
> The newly inaugurated Veterans Week glorifies the deceased, but the maimed are not the focus of the messaging.
> 
> Whether Armed Forces personal are physically or other wise permanently injured these folks seem to have been forgotten with messaging and with care and support. There is an attempt to have fixed cost for the maimed, much to the detriment of the veterans.
> 
> The message of de Adder is indeed spot on.


Veterans campaign for closing federal offices - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

From one of the commenters:


> This gov't spends over $100 million in taxpayers money on self-promotion, $28 million on the War of 1812 but closes SAR Centres, SAR Stations, Veterans Affairs offices among many other closures.


Clearly this government has lost touch with priorities, and needs to be sent packing. They're no better the liberals now. In fact, worse.


----------



## groovetube

Jim Flaherty fiscal update: Budget deficit wiped out by 2016-2017 | Economy | News | Financial Post

Well there's a big surprise. Remember how we were all told we'd have to wait for our tax cuts until -after- they balance the budget, because hey we have to hand billions first to the corporations so they can crea... er hoarde tons and tons o' cash?

riiiiight.

They aren't going to be balancing that budget anytime soon.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Veterans campaign for closing federal offices - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News


I find these articles galling. The headline is so misleading that I was wondering why veterans would campaign to have federal offices closed. However, there is no information in the article that mentions how many veterans are being served at each facility, the number of staff, etc. On the face of it, one wants the veterans to be treated well, but making some sort of blanket statement that all of the offices should remain open without some hard data is also an inadequate response. I searched for some better numbers but found nothing.


----------



## groovetube

numbers have been available to those who wish to know more.

Emphasis, on 'those who wish to know more...'


but quick! Rush to their defence. We certainly wouldn't want to talk about this governments complete failure to balance the budget, nor their insane spending habits next to the cuts to programs for the vets.

noooo.


----------



## Dr.G.

People 'unliking' Romney on Facebook - CNN.com

"A wave of retirements among business owners over the next few years could pose a significant risk for the Canadian economy as the country undergoes the biggest transfer of economic control in its history, according to CIBC World Markets." 

Damn those Canadian boomers who are thinking of retiring in the next two to three years. They will sink us all. XX)tptptptp


----------



## BigDL

Leaving Flaherty and Harper until 2015 shall likely be a bigger threat.

The HSSMCG™ will soon start the promise of more pie in the sky bye and bye along with the promise of balanced budgets.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Leaving Flaherty and Harper until 2015 shall likely be a bigger threat.
> 
> The HSSMCG™ will soon start the promise of more pie in the sky bye and bye along with the promise of balanced budgets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Solidarity, Brother.

Solidarity forever - (Utah Phillips) - YouTube


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> *Solidarity*, Brother.
> 
> Solidarity forever - (Utah Phillips) - YouTube


Really?? In this day and age? Quite anachronistic IMO.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Really?? In this day and age? Quite anachronistic IMO.


Well, such thoughts help one to stay "forever young". Paix, mon ami.

Pete Seeger - "Forever Young" - YouTube


----------



## Sonal

Justin Trudeau embraces common sense

From the article:


> Polls show a majority Canadians are up for decriminalization — an Ipsos survey in July found 66% in favour nationwide, and as high as 72% in the Atlantic provinces.


----------



## groovetube

smart. Embrace policies that the majority of Canadians feel is sane.

I'd like to see the next election fought more on other issues, rather than seeing them all fight who's better at the economy and taxes. We already know who likes to spend the most.


----------



## Rps

Groove, I don't think we have to worry about economic issues as we will probably be in a world war by the time the next election is called.


----------



## MacDoc

> Really?? In this day and age? Quite anachronistic IMO.





> Australians are the richest people in the world on a median basis, according to a new report.


Australia wealthiest nation in world: report

Australia remains strongly unionized....



> Australia - Working conditions - Encyclopedia of the Nations
> Encyclopedia of the Nations - Information about countries of the world, United Nations, and World Leaders › Asia and the Pacific › AustraliaMay 6, 2011 – In world terms, Australian working conditions are of a high standard. Australian industrial relations are characterized by fairly high union ..


..as do Denmark, Norway and Sweden....all leading in human development stats.

there goes another right wing myth busted.

Of course they are under attack by the predators that exist on the right wing in every nation.

Unions on their own can be predators as well.
Responsible unions are a much need offset to corporate malfeasance.


----------



## Rps

MacDoc, a big +1 on this one. Unions per se don't destroy businesses they help them grow. I know there will be arguments on both side of your post, but clearly unionism has helped in the creation of wealth in a society. Lately, however, we are seeing the negative side of unionism..... take a look at the NHL for example .... but we clearly need to have all parties in the society working and for many it seems to be only one-sided.


----------



## bryanc

The problem here is that organizations of people, wether they are corporations or unions, cannot be moral agents; only the individuals that make them up have morals.

So corporations are motivated not by what is good for society or the people that make it up, but rather by profits (which is as it should be). And unions are not motivated by what is good for society or the people that make it up, but by political (i.e. negotiating) power. As long as these are kept in balance and the people who make up these organizations are alert to the pitfalls of either side becoming too dominant, the system can (and usually does) work well to optimize both the creation of wealth to prevent abuse of the workers. However, when the unions get too strong, it tends to impair the ability of the corporations to generate profits, and when the corporations get too strong it tends to result in abuse of the workers, neither of which are good for society.

It reminds me of the phenomenon of genomic imprinting; due to the differences in optimal resource allocations during reproduction when viewed from the point of view of the maternal and paternal genomes, the male and female genomes are engaged in what amounts to an arms-race regarding the allocation of female metabolic resources to the developing embryo. If you experimentally eliminate the expression of the maternal genome in the embryo, it will produce a massive placenta that will harvest way more resources than necessary from the mother, even to the extent of producing a defective embryo. Conversely, if you experimentally eliminate the expression of the paternal genome in the embryo, it results in an under-developed placenta that starves the embryo. So neither genome can be trusted to do what's really in the best interests of the embryo; only by having a balanced contribution from both do you get optimal results.


----------



## Rps

bryanc;1232342
So neither genome can be trusted to do what's really in the best interests of the embryo; only by having a balanced contribution from both do you get optimal results.[/QUOTE said:


> Isn't this were labour laws and government regulations should come into play to assist with the balance? Maybe we should be looking at the role ( or non role ) of government in this regard.


----------



## bryanc

Rps said:


> Isn't this were labour laws and government regulations should come into play to assist with the balance? Maybe we should be looking at the role ( or non role ) of government in this regard.


Actually, given that evolution (which is the ultimate form of Laissez-faire capitalism) has solved this problem fairly effectively, an argument could be made that we should not interfere with the corporate/union struggle; let nature take its course. However, it's also worth considering that natural selection took millions of years and not only allowed but depended on many failures to get this sorted out. Perhaps we can apply some intelligent design?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Australia wealthiest nation in world: report
> 
> Australia remains strongly unionized....


MacDoc, look at the report more carefully. Half the wealth is due to the increase in value of the Australian dollar, caused by resource exports.


----------



## groovetube

Once again, with all the furious hand waving it's missed that, Australia is still the wealthiest -despite- having these unions.

Oops.


----------



## groovetube

It's interesting that I found this article through a conservative source.

Portugal Drug Policy: Decriminalization Works - Business Insider

I'll let the article stand for itself without comment.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Whoa! Conservatives warned about voter suppression techniques 3 days prior to last year's general election. Emails have come out. Good news for the Council of Canadians Supreme Court challenge. Hopefully the start of the end of Harper majority!
Emails show Elections Canada raised voter suppression concerns before election


----------



## i-rui

Weasels.

If Only elections Canada had any teeth.


----------



## jimbotelecom

i-rui said:


> Weasels.
> 
> If Only elections Canada had any teeth.


More like rats but that insults the animal world. The court basically deferred to Elections Canada on the Opitz challenge. Maybe it will be different this time. Here's to hope.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> More like rats but that insults the animal world. The court basically deferred to Elections Canada on the Opitz challenge. Maybe it will be different this time. Here's to hope.


No hope. Your party is dead.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> No hope. Your party is dead.


Party hasn't started yet.


----------



## CubaMark

*Don't'cha just love these international "free trade" agreements?*












> The Canadian government faces a $250-million suit from a U.S. energy producer over Quebec’s environmental stance, raising new questions about the wisdom of investor rights treaties Ottawa is planning with China and the European Union.
> 
> Lone Pine Resources Inc. has declared its intention to use its power under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) to challenge Quebec’s crackdown on fracking, a controversial drilling technique for releasing oil and natural gas from underground shale rock formations.
> 
> Under NAFTA’s Chapter 11 dispute resolution provisions, the governments of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico can be sued by private companies that believe their interests as foreign investors have been harmed by discriminatory actions in one of the three countries.
> 
> Quebec has abundant shale gas formations but the provincial government has declared a moratorium on fracking while it studies the environmental impact of the technology,


(Toronto Star)


----------



## groovetube

with some cheering for practically election fraud, it's hard to think that they would be in any way interested in this.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Recent cannabis survey results. Surprised that Alberta ranks 2nd behind BC. 

http://www.afm.mb.ca/Research/documents/CannUseCda.pdf


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Don't'cha just love these international "free trade" agreements?*


Yes, I do love them. 

That company may well believe that it's being discriminated against, and the dispute mechanism will decide whether it is. I don't believe it will be decided in the company's favour, since the province is not discriminating against that company in particular--currently no company is allowed to frack there. I believe Arkansas also has a moratorium right now.


----------



## groovetube

yes CM, you remember how well the softwood lumber fiasco turned out!

Nothing to see here.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Calgary by election - cons in trouble and may lose to a Liberal or a Green. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/11/17/calgary-byelection-debate.html


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Calgary by election - cons in trouble and may lose to a Liberal or a Green.
> 
> Crockatt comments cause criticism at byelection debate - Calgary - CBC News





> Crockatt also caused a stir when she said the U.S. is a financial "basket case."
> 
> Liberal Harvey Locke seized on the comment.
> 
> "Anybody who thinks we do not continue to have a critically important relationship with the U.S. really doesn't understand the Canadian economy, our culture or our border,” Locke said.


Good for Crockatt. They're both right! The U.S. is a financial basket case with which we have a critically important relationship.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Good for Crockatt. They're both right! The U.S. is a financial basket case with which we have a critically important relationship.


How is your unskewed polling on this riding?


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> How is your unskewed polling on this riding?


As long as Dan Meade remains on the bottom of the heap, I don''t care who wins.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> As long as Dan Meade remains on the bottom of the heap, I don''t care who wins.


You will not be too happy then because Libertarian Tony Prashad will be below Meade on the bottom of the pile. 😜


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> You will not be too happy then because Libertarian Tony Prashad will be below Meade on the bottom of the pile. 😜


They can console each other.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> They can console each other.


More like the Lin and the indie will console each other. Dipper is polling at 12%.


----------



## jimbotelecom

The beginning of the end to the Harper majority? 
Elections Canada to take unprecedented steps to publicly consult on robocalls | hilltimes.com


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> The beginning of the end to the Harper majority?
> Elections Canada to take unprecedented steps to publicly consult on robocalls | hilltimes.com


Did you read the article... it has nothing to do with the outcome of the last election. The consultations are to do with ways of making the Elections Canada Act better in terms of dealing with electronic communication in general...



> The purpose of the report is “to suggest improvement to the Canada Elections Act in order to deal with a number of issues relating to new technologies and social media, as well as to all political entities that communicate with electors during a general election,” Mr. Mayrand told the Procedure and House Affairs Committee earlier this spring.


not in relation to the last election in terms of any legal proceedings looking to overturn election results.

Seems all you did was read the head line and jump to conclusions...


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Did you read the article... it has nothing to do with the outcome of the last election. The consultations are to do with ways of making the Elections Canada Act better in terms of dealing with electronic communication in general...
> 
> 
> 
> not in relation to the last election in terms of any legal proceedings looking to overturn election results.
> 
> Seems all you did was read the head line and jumped to conclusions...


Screature, do you see the day where we will be able to vote on-line from home? I'm wondering if such a method would encourage more to vote in elections..........


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, do you see the day where we will be able to vote on-line from home? I'm wondering if such a method would encourage more to vote in elections..........


Not in the foreseeable future IMO. Too much room for voter fraud and error. 

I think it potentially could result in a greater percentage of the population voting, but the security issues are prohibitive at this time from everything I have read and heard about such a possibility.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Did you read the article... it has nothing to do with the outcome of the last election.
> 
> Seems all you did was read the head line and jump to conclusions...


This is the result of collecting the precis from news aggregator sites like a squirrel collecting acorns.



screature said:


> Not in the foreseeable future IMO. Too much room for voter fraud and error.


Very easy with such a system to go door to door to buy votes for a cash price.


----------



## Rps

I've noticed that, lately, more and more people are using advanced polls ( I've seen this both Provincially and Federally ) same where you are??? Just wondering if the timing and duration of elections and polls needs to be reviewed. I see some locations in the U.S. open at 7am..... I know this is due to their local propositions ... some states can have a 20 page ballot. But I'm wondering, also, if we shouldn't be thinking this way as well ...... maybe more policy should be voted on by the people in elections instead of by our elected members....( I'm talking about consent vs non-consentual items such as death penalty, abortion etc... )


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I've noticed that, lately, more and more people are using advanced polls ( I've seen this both Provincially and Federally ) same where you are??? Just wondering if the timing and duration of elections and polls needs to be reviewed. I see some locations in the U.S. open at 7am..... I know this is due to their local propositions ... some states can have a 20 page ballot. But I'm wondering, also, if we shouldn't be thinking this way as well ...... maybe more policy should be voted on by the people in elections instead of by our elected members....( I'm talking about consent vs non-consentual items such as death penalty, abortion etc... )


Perosnally I prefer an advanced poll just because the line ups are smaller. I really can't comment on a trend one way or the other as I simply don't know.

Re : Doing things the way the States do I don't see that happening any time as our systems are completely different and it would take a lot of legislation just to be able to make it happen.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Perosnally I prefer an advanced poll just because the line ups are smaller. I really can't comment on a trend one way or the other as I simply don't know.
> 
> Re : Doing things the way the States do I don't see that happening any time as our systems are completely different and it would take a lot of legislation just to be able to make it happen.


Evidence is fairly clear that none of the current crop of politicians support participatory democracy, which makes it very unlikely that Canadians will be allowed any direct input on critical legislation.

Personally I feel any deployment of Canadian forces abroad should require at least 60% approval in a national plebiscite. Nowadays the plebiscite could be accomplished a good deal faster than transport for the equipment can be found.


----------



## partsguy

No debate on Justin Trudeau's apparent lack of awareness that what he says in Quebec will be heard in Alberta?


----------



## groovetube

Huge mistake on Justin's part for sure. But as we've seen with Harper, people have short memories, but more to the point, the one who carries ontario and quebec will become prime minister.


----------



## jimbotelecom

He should have said "Albertan Conservatives" are ruining our social and cultural fabric but he said "Albertans". The interview was playing to Quebecers so I have no issue with stating the fact that Quebec generates good leadership.


----------



## groovetube

yes he should have made that distinction.


----------



## groovetube

meanwhile, the globe and mail is reporting that Harper and co are moving against the PEI lab that reported the virus in BC salmon. 
Ottawa moves against PEI lab that reported virus in B.C. salmon - The Globe and Mail (unfortunately behind a paywall, but it'll be on other news sources soon enough)

Another example of our government hard at work silencing findings it finds inconvenient.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> He should have said "Albertan Conservatives" are ruining our social and cultural fabric but he said "Albertans". The interview was playing to Quebecers so *I have no issue with stating the fact that Quebec generates good leadership*.


Yeah like René Lévesque, Jacques Parizeau, Gilles Duceppe, Lucien Bouchard, Pauline Marois etc...


----------



## screature

partsguy said:


> No debate on Justin Trudeau's apparent lack of awareness that what he says in Quebec will be heard in Alberta?


Justin is his father's son, filled with Central Canadian arrogance and contempt for the West.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Yeah like René Lévesque, Jacques Parizeau, Gilles Duceppe, Lucien Bouchard, Pauline Marois etc...


none of whom were prime ministers...


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Justin is his father's son, filled with Central Canadian arrogance and contempt for the West.


I think both Trudeaus were well aware that carrying most of Ontario and Quebec would give them enough seats to gain a majority. In my memory Liberal representation was always geared towards Central Canada to the point of excluding the rest of Canada or even at the expense of other parts of the nation. 

That said I think the contempt of Trudeau the elder was and remains entirely mutual. As to whether this carries over to the son, time will tell.

When one looks at the regional differences, I think it would be absolutely impossible for any party to be truly national in character. 

This is the reason I would favour an elected Senate. One with the same number of senators from each province and territory. I would limit their power to amending and rejecting legislation, and perhaps repealing old legislation. I would not repeat the US error of having two legislative bodies which initiate legislation. Where the Senate does amend, Parliament could either accept the amendments or let the legislation die. 

Hopefully this sort of approach would provide us with a government that represents the general population but not at the expense of certain regions.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Yeah like René Lévesque, Jacques Parizeau, Gilles Duceppe, Lucien Bouchard, Pauline Marois etc...


At the risk of beginning a shooting war here, I personally think Levesque and Duceppe were exceptional leaders.........I didn't like their politics but I would list them as two of the best Prime Ministers that never were.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> At the risk of beginning a shooting war here, I personally think Levesque and Duceppe were exceptional leaders.........I didn't like their politics but I would list them as two of the best Prime Ministers that never were.


I strongly disagree and we shall have to agree to disagree as there is no changing my mind on the matter.

How could they be Prime Minister's that never were when they had no interest's outside of their own province... they wouldn't have a clue as to how to lead Canada and bridge the regional gaps...


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I think both Trudeaus were well aware that carrying most of Ontario and Quebec would give them enough seats to gain a majority. In my memory Liberal representation was always geared towards Central Canada to the point of excluding the rest of Canada or even at the expense of other parts of the nation.
> 
> That said I think* the contempt of Trudeau the elder was and remains entirely mutual*. As to whether this carries over to the son, time will tell.
> 
> *When one looks at the regional differences, I think it would be absolutely impossible for any party to be truly national in character. *
> 
> This is the reason I would favour an elected Senate. One with the same number of senators from each province and territory. I would limit their power to amending and rejecting legislation, and perhaps repealing old legislation. I would not repeat the US error of having two legislative bodies which initiate legislation. Where the Senate does amend, Parliament could either accept the amendments or let the legislation die.
> 
> Hopefully this sort of approach would provide us with a government that represents the general population but not at the expense of certain regions.


At least the West had reasons for their contempt of Trudeau with Trudeau it was just pure arrogance and prejudice.

I agree completely on this point.


----------



## Rps

Screature, I understand your point of view here, but let me say this, both motivated their populace and, politics aside, had all the attributes of a good leader. The fact we disagree with what their policies were should not negate an analysis of their abilities to lead. I have often thought that "the W" was a good leader, I hated his policies, but he could certainly get what he wanted to get done ...done. Secondly, I'm not so sure that Levesque and Duceppe couldn't bridge the gap, however I agree their politics would probably have gotten in the way in many cases. But as our power base is no so slowly shifting in this country one could ask is there not a trend of a West to East regional gap as opposed to the East to West one we had many many years ago?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Justin Trudeau certainly knows BC quite well given his relatives, his teaching there and the fact his brother died there.
I believe he has spent considerable time in Alberta too. So he knows the west fairly well. 

I don't buy the contempt accusation whatsoever. I know plenty of Albertans who do not support the Cons. 

It's far more appropriate to say there was a parting of political interests with the NEP. To a great extent the economic policy related to Alberta and the tar sands exploitation has never been resolved. It's only worsened in the last decade with our knowledge of climate disruption.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Screature, I understand your point of view here, but let me say this, both motivated their populace and, politics aside, had all the attributes of a good leader. The fact we disagree with what their policies were should not negate an analysis of their abilities to lead.


They were one-issue leaders.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Screature, I understand your point of view here, but let me say this, both motivated their populace and, politics aside, had all the attributes of a good leader. The fact we disagree with what their policies were should not negate an analysis of their abilities to lead. I have often thought that "the W" was a good leader, I hated his policies, but he could certainly get what he wanted to get done ...done. Secondly, I'm not so sure that Levesque and Duceppe couldn't bridge the gap, however I agree their politics would probably have gotten in the way in many cases. But as our power base is no so slowly shifting in this country one could ask is there not a trend of a West to East regional gap as opposed to the East to West one we had many many years ago?


'W' used hatred and fear as his primary leadership tools. Tools which served another leader named Adolph extremely well. For me the man who bases his leadership on policies, policies drafted to benefit the nation rather than corporate sponsors is a truly great leader. Sadly not very many current examples floating around as fear and hatred are much easier methods to master.


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> as fear and hatred are much easier methods to master.


I very much agree, it doesn't seem to matter where you look in the world today, it appears easier to motivate with hate than reason.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Well there you go. Trudeau has apologized and said that he meant the Alberta Conservatives control the social agenda. I agree with him.


----------



## groovetube

certainly very few in ontario and quebec wouldn't agree with him. Nor BC I would suspect.


----------



## partsguy

He still hasn't explained his statement how (in essence) Quebec has politicians who are better suited to rule Canada. 

Divisive statements.


----------



## groovetube

divisive, yes. But he's playing to the Quebec audience.

Just as Harper plays to the west.


----------



## Macfury

partsguy said:


> He still hasn't explained his statement how (in essence) Quebec has politicians who are better suited to rule Canada.
> 
> Divisive statements.


Bad seed to sow at this point.


----------



## BigDL

This situation only matters until next week's by-election in Calgary. 

The lad, is only a Quebec MP at the moment. Perhaps later on it may mean something more, but not for now.


----------



## groovetube

Kinda blew their stack a bit early on that one


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *This situation only matters until next weeks by-election in Calgary.
> 
> The lad, is only a Quebec MP at the moment. Perhaps later on it may mean something more, but not for now.*


Hardly...  

The sentiment of his statement is *extremely* divisive especially when the overwhelming majority of federal revenues come from the west. 

That you think it is only relevant to this bi-election is revealing of how little you appreciate the bigger picture...

He is clearly the "heir apparent". That you say:



> The lad, is only a Quebec MP at the moment.


is quite simply ridiculous.

His "coronation" is imminent. 

You really make me laugh sometimes BigDL. :lmao:


----------



## jimbotelecom

It's extremely divisive to the Con spin machine for sure. To Canadians at large, I suspect not so much. 

The whoppers that came out of Harper's mouth are equally divisive if you want to dwell on this.


----------



## jimbotelecom

For anyone interested, CBC Radio's The House covers Monday's by-election especially Calgary Centre where both the Liberals and Greens are polling close to the Conservative candidate in what is a traditional Con bastion.

One thing that is clear from the programme is that Naheed Nenshi is far and above the finest big city mayor in Canada. He puts others to shame.

I highly recommend those interested in Canadian politics listen to this edition. I listened to the podcast version prior to broadcast.

Thanks.


----------



## groovetube

the real partisans truly need to this to be an 'heir apparent'. Desperately actually.

The truth is, the Hapless Harper and co have made the west a bigger priority (and I know a certain someone(s) would scream about how because I don't have a job on the hill I know nothing pfffft) and Ontario/Quebec/maritimes are not stupid.

If Harper can play divisive politics, and oh yes he has to a high degree, so can Trudeau. And truthfully, it could be a nice trap to pigeon hole Harper and crew as a western interest party.


----------



## jimbotelecom

One thing I find interesting is the definition of "The West" in CDN politics. The Alberta Cons play this out to be everything west of the Ontario border, but I would say that it really isn't so, and I think they know it too.

For one BC is very much "The West" but politically there are few similarities with the prairie provinces. BC is on it's own and able to call its own shots to a large degree. 

At the heart of "The West" is Alberta. And even Alberta is starting to see its homogeneous voting base splinter especially in the urban areas. I'm really not surprised at the Green party surge in the cities. The Liberals are nowhere in Alberta and will continue to be there unless they can put forward good candidates. Harvey Locke is a good candidate.

Saskatchewan is currently part of "The West" politically with their Con government but that will change within the decade as they'll go back to the NDP.

Manitoba is satisfied with NDP leadership and direction.

So "The West" is really Alberta and I'm optimistic that change there is finally becoming a reality but it will not turn into a politically diverse province for some time yet.

The nasty side of politics is at play right now, and much like our neighbours to the south, we're into cleavage politics. As Harper said to former Nfld. Premier Williams "We don't need Nfld and Labrador". Ugly stuff. Not good for national unity but that's the situation we find ourselves in.

Alberta is in. Deal with it.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> His "coronation" is imminent.


I agree I think the party really wants him to be king, not sure if the Trudeau name will resonate with the younger voters... but I think he is all they have and, in Ontario, I think it will be Murray who will take the Provincial title......


----------



## jimbotelecom

Rps said:


> I agree I think the party really wants him to be king, not sure if the Trudeau name will resonate with the younger voters... but I think he is all they have and, in Ontario, I think it will be Murray who will take the Provincial title......


Trudeau is the Dauphin. While I'd prefer Murray, I think Pupatelo has it.


----------



## Rps

Jimbotelecom, years ago ( and I'm sure it was W.A.C. Bennett ) who suggested that Canada should be 5 provinces: B.C. and the Yukon; the Prairies -meaning Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan; Ontario and Quebec; the Maritimes; and the Northwest Territories. His view was that these entities should be aligned economically rather than politically .... although one could surmise that he wanted the Yukon as part of B.C. and who could blame him. In viewing our country one would wonder if he wasn't correct in his thinking. So if we consider economic divisions ( or engagement rather ) our government has tended in past years to consider policy along this line of thinking .... only thing missing is the formalization of the political boundary. That said, and along with your comments, many are beginning to think of the West as Alberta with Saskatchewan and Manitoba in a sort of no man's land ..... that is, of course, until there is a major economic boon in those provinces.


----------



## Rps

jimbotelecom said:


> Trudeau is the Dauphin. While I'd prefer Murray, I think Pupatelo has it.


While, as I live in Windsor, I would like Pupatelo, I'm not so sure she will have enough clout in the urban areas............. there is something to be said about someone who finishes their term..... I also like that Murray was a mayor and has more of a "global" view because of it due to his time in Manitoba....


----------



## partsguy

All due respect, Rps: There IS a major economic boom going on in Saskatchewan. They go back and forth with Alberta in having the lowest unemployment rate in the country. Manitoba is no slouch either. It just doesn't make good headlines like the oilsands developments do. 

Unemployment Stats by Province - as of October 2012

I do agree with the majority of the rest of your post though. BC is separated from the rest of 'The West' by the Rockies, but I would argue also that the lower mainland (Greater Vancouver) has more in common with Seattle than it does with Prince George.


----------



## Rps

partsguy, it wasn't my intent to slight Saskatchewan nor Manitoba. Saskatchewan is indeed the forgotten sister in the west when one thinks of economic power, but I think this is due to its consistency. Manitoba seems to only have Fort McMurray, but I am probably wrong there as well.


----------



## Macfury

partsguy said:


> All due respect, Rps: There IS a major economic boom going on in Saskatchewan. They go back and forth with Alberta in having the lowest unemployment rate in the country. Manitoba is no slouch either. It just doesn't make good headlines like the oilsands developments do.
> 
> Unemployment Stats by Province - as of October 2012
> 
> I do agree with the majority of the rest of your post though. BC is separated from the rest of 'The West' by the Rockies, but I would argue also that the lower mainland (Greater Vancouver) has more in common with Seattle than it does with Prince George.


Right on both counts. Manitioba and Saskatchewan are leaving Ontario in the dust economically--although we have windmills generating our electricity,

And if you're going to divide the country geographically, may as well go all the way don to the Mexican border and slice of vertical chunks. On top of that, provinces of the size suggested by Bennett would unmanageable as political entities.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> On top of that, provinces of the size suggested by Bennett would unmanageable as political entities.


Well Wacky had a self interest in his division of the country, but not so sure in this day and age with all the technology out there that one couldn't regulate and govern an area as large as Bennett suggested. But I am curious, MacFury, your comment smacks of "manifest destiny", so are you suggesting that we become part of the U.S.....not sure they would want us, nor whether we would want them.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> One thing I find interesting is the definition of "The West" in CDN politics. The Alberta Cons play this out to be everything west of the Ontario border, but I would say that it really isn't so, and I think they know it too.
> 
> For one BC is very much "The West" but politically there are few similarities with the prairie provinces. BC is on it's own and able to call its own shots to a large degree.
> 
> At the heart of "The West" is Alberta. And even Alberta is starting to see its homogeneous voting base splinter especially in the urban areas. I'm really not surprised at the Green party surge in the cities. The Liberals are nowhere in Alberta and will continue to be there unless they can put forward good candidates. Harvey Locke is a good candidate.
> 
> Saskatchewan is currently part of "The West" politically with their Con government but that will change within the decade as they'll go back to the NDP.
> 
> Manitoba is satisfied with NDP leadership and direction.
> 
> So "The West" is really Alberta and I'm optimistic that change there is finally becoming a reality but it will not turn into a politically diverse province for some time yet.
> 
> The nasty side of politics is at play right now, and much like our neighbours to the south, we're into cleavage politics. As Harper said to former Nfld. Premier Williams "We don't need Nfld and Labrador". Ugly stuff. Not good for national unity but that's the situation we find ourselves in.
> 
> Alberta is in. Deal with it.


What you fail to address with your analysis is the differences between provincial and federal politics and we are taking federal politics here and on that front the conservatives own the west.

Also it is far from being only the "Alberta Cons" who say anything west of Ontario is considered the west... it has been considered thus since confederation. Even our time zones say so, Eastern Canada stops before the Manitoba/Ontario border.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Well Wacky had a self interest in his division of the country, but not so sure in this day and age with all the technology out there that one couldn't regulate and govern an area as large as Bennett suggested. But I am curious, MacFury, your comment smacks of "manifest destiny", so are you suggesting that we become part of the U.S.....not sure they would want us, nor whether we would want them.


Politics and economics are very much regional in reality. The Maritimes have far much more in common both economically and politically (in terms of general sentiment, not political parties) with the states of the northern eastern seaboard than they do with any other part of Canada... I think this may be in part what Macfury is getting at.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Politics and economics are very much regional in reality. The Maritimes have far much more in common both economically and politically (in terms of general sentiment, not political parties) with the states of the northern eastern seaboard than they do with any other part of Canada... I think this may be in part what Macfury is getting at.


Yes, I see, in that case there is some validity there.


----------



## Rps

Question for you Screature .... at one time I could see the joining of Ontario and Quebec ( as Bennett suggested ) as both had similar economies, but current conditions aside, would you think that notion would still stand. Quebec I think is the largest dairy producer in the country, would this be a move to a more agrarian economy or is the manufacturing base still the same, I know Quebec has some large world class manufacturing.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Yes, I see, in that case there is some validity there.


BTW Rps just out of curiosity who is the white haired fellow that you are using as your new avatar?


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> BTW Rps just out of curiosity who is the white haired fellow that you are using as your new avatar?


Hi Screature, that would be Paulo Freire ... are you familiar with him?


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Question for you Screature .... at one time I could see the joining of Ontario and Quebec ( as Bennett suggested ) as both had similar economies, but current conditions aside, would you think that notion would still stand. Quebec I think is the largest dairy producer in the country, would this be a move to a more agrarian economy or is the manufacturing base still the same, I know Quebec has some large world class manufacturing.


I think that if it weren't for the all too significant cultural and linguistic differences it could make sense on the basis of economics but one cannot remove those difference form the equation. 

However, that being said, they have been collectively referred to as "central" Canada by many since Canada has become the geo-political landmass that it is today.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Hi Screature, that would be Paulo Freire ... are you familiar with him?


No not at all... he is a striking looking figure though and thus why I was curious.


----------



## Rps

screature, he was a Brazilian educator who was noted for his work on literacy and critical pedagogy. I have been studying his work for the past 3 years and am doing my masters on certain aspects of his theories on education. He is a very interesting character.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Well Wacky had a self interest in his division of the country, but not so sure in this day and age with all the technology out there that one couldn't regulate and govern an area as large as Bennett suggested. But I am curious, MacFury, your comment smacks of "manifest destiny", so are you suggesting that we become part of the U.S.....not sure they would want us, nor whether we would want them.


Not at all suggesting Manifest Sestiny. Just pointing out the possible logical conclusion of the "like with like" theory, geographically and culturally.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> screature, *he was a Brazilian educator who was noted for his work on literacy and critical pedagogy. *I have been studying his work for the past 3 years and am doing my masters on certain aspects of his theories on education. He is a very interesting character.


Thanks Rps... I wikied him when you posted his name.


----------



## MacDoc

This entire series of articles should be must do reading for all Canadians to see how badly mismanaged our resources are.



> *Secrets to Norway's Petro-Wealth: Lessons for Canada?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the moment when Canada is making the transition to petro-state, ironing out internal agreements among provinces and external deals with major powers including China and the United States, The Tyee sent veteran energy issues journalist Mitch Anderson to Norway to learn why that nation has been able to amass a $600 billion savings fund for its population of under 5 million, a stark contrast to the situation here.
> 
> The series is part of a larger project, "Canada's Transition to a Better Energy Future," produced by The Tyee in collaboration with Tides Canada Initiatives Society.


The Tyee – Secrets to Norway's Petro-Wealth: Lessons for Canada?


----------



## jimbotelecom

I'm aware of the history of Rupert's land right through to today. I'm suggesting that things are becoming much more fluid especially in cities. My read of BC, Sask, and Manitoba is that they would if convinced vote NDP with little hesitation. Greens have made inroads in BC. 

Alberta is now starting to show cracks in homogenous voting. Monday's results will be very interesting if the polling stands. I think in spite of the McGuinty and Trudeau statements there will be a shift to the Liberals. The student and Yuppie demographic is driving change in Calgary. 

Canada's population has been majority urban since 1921. Urban results make or break a political entity regardless of where they are in the country.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> I'm aware of the history of Rupert's land right through to today. I'm suggesting that things are becoming much more fluid especially in cities. My read of BC, Sask, and Manitoba is that they would if convinced vote NDP with little hesitation. Greens have made inroads in BC.
> 
> Alberta is now starting to show cracks in homogenous voting. Monday's results will be very interesting if the polling stands. I think in spite of the McGuinty and Trudeau statements there will be a shift to the Liberals. The student and Yuppie demographic is driving change in Calgary.
> 
> Canada's population has been majority urban since 1921. Urban results make or break a political entity regardless of where they are in the country.


I agree with you on the notion that Alberta is starting to show cracks. Many family members who were staunch conservative supporters feel as though Harper doesn't represent -their- interests as much as he does oil and corp interests. I don't know if they'd vote liberal quite yet, but certainly recent polling numbers show an interesting story.

I've never personally subscribed to this idea of 'west'/east', beyond the geography of it. Many here aren't against Alberta doing well, hell many are benefitting from it, but it's the way Harper and co handle things, and certainly his very divisive politic. Harper had the chance to be a national leader, and he and his gang has clearly shown the rest of the country what their interests are in silencing differing opinions to their agenda, and while they think no one is noticing, that is slowly becoming less the case.


----------



## partsguy

Rps said:


> partsguy, it wasn't my intent to slight Saskatchewan nor Manitoba. Saskatchewan is indeed the forgotten sister in the west when one thinks of economic power, but I think this is due to its consistency. Manitoba seems to only have Fort McMurray, but I am probably wrong there as well.


You might want to edit that last bit. Last time I checked Fort McMurray was in Alberta.

But if you look at the history of Saskatchewan you'll see that there _was_ a time of economic uncertainty in the province, and it's been having period 'quiet growth' more or less under the radar to those outside the prairies. It's our little secret.


----------



## Rps

partsguy said:


> You might want to edit that last bit. Last time I checked Fort McMurray was in Alberta.
> 
> But if you look at the history of Saskatchewan you'll see that there _was_ a time of economic uncertainty in the province, and it's been having period 'quiet growth' more or less under the radar to those outside the prairies. It's our little secret.


WOW! LOL, my mind was not with my keyboard, I meant Thompson thanks for the notice....

Getting back to your comments on Saskatchewan, I have often told my children that that is were they should go and not Alberta.....maybe its my age but I prefer stable economies and Saskatchewan hasn't had major swings lately. I used to live in Alberta many years ago, and still have some family there....and although it is running high now I still remember the feast or famine days.


----------



## jimbotelecom

partsguy said:


> He still hasn't explained his statement how (in essence) Quebec has politicians who are better suited to rule Canada.
> 
> Divisive statements.


Here's one reason: Quebec PM's attract cooler musicians!


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Here's one reason: Quebec PM's attract cooler musicians!


ha! :clap:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Hardly...
> 
> The sentiment of his statement is *extremely* divisive especially when the overwhelming majority of federal revenues come from the west.
> 
> That you think it is only relevant to this bi-election is revealing of how little you appreciate the bigger picture...
> 
> He is clearly the "heir apparent". That you say:
> 
> 
> 
> is quite simply ridiculous.
> 
> His "coronation" is imminent.
> 
> You really make me laugh sometimes BigDL. :lmao:


Let's remember that in the "bigger picture" we have a federal government who said if we didn't support their spy bill we were with the child pornographers.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Let's remember that in the "bigger picture" we have a federal government who said if we didn't support their spy bill we were with the child pornographers.


And if I understand it correctly is coming around for another go.


----------



## groovetube

I hear. It's adorable when the conservatives go ga ga over something they dug up 2 years ago that Trudeau said in Quebec. You don't think Harper hasn't played the same politic?

pffft. I don't know how anyone could be in Ottawa long and not know that.


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau may benefit from Alberta controversy | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

exactly.


----------



## jimbotelecom

And just for fun, here's a compendium of Harper gaffes over the years compiled by none other than the Conservative Party of Kanukistan:

Harper dossier: Part 1
Harper dossier: Part 2
Harper dossier: Part 3
Harper dossier: Part 4

Whoppers the whole family can enjoy!


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> This entire series of articles should be must do reading for all Canadians to see how badly mismanaged our resources are.
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyee – Secrets to Norway's Petro-Wealth: Lessons for Canada?


The _Tyee_? Well there's an authoritative source for ya! Norway's secret to government wealth is taxing its citizens to the hilt.


----------



## groovetube

Imagine, bringing in revenues to match the spending!

I hear our federal debt has now surpassed 600 billion now!

Damn good thing we handed massive tax breaks to corporations so they can create jo... er, hoard tons of cash!


----------



## MacDoc

and the citizens love it.....you really don't get it do you MF - it's not what you pay in taxes - it's what you get for them.
Norway manages it's natural resources and the skills of it's citizens to enrich them ALL .....not just a few.
Norwegians ARE their government - not some mythical enemy the right wingdings try to posit.
They have a competent government.
Ours was reasonably competent under Paul Martin as as Finance minister tho the whole voting and levels of gov structure sucks. 
Alberta's is a mess. Ontario tries hard under adverse circumstance thanks in part to Dutch disease and predatory public servant unions who can't cope with reality.
Flaherty is earning some respect....Harper is a joke. There are a few competent premieres about. NFLD for one, Manitoba and Sask. Funny how Winnipeggers pay less for car insurance than we do in Ontario.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> and the citizens love it.....


Citizens are resigned to it. The big question in Norway--if our living standard is so good, why are we as citizens always short of money?


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Citizens are resigned to it. The big question in Norway--if our living standard is so good, why are we as citizens always short of money?


LOL! I guess that accounts for the large migration in recent years. Stop skewing around.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> LOL! I guess that accounts for the large migration in recent years. Stop skewing around.


pfffft. My favorite is the wondering why we're so broke.

Hint: biggest spending government in Canadian history.


----------



## MacDoc

and overseeing the biggest deficit given dropped revenues from the recession they didn't see and the GST they were told not to cut.
Resource companies meanwhile awash in cash and profit and laughing at the fools in Ottawa and Alberta.

At least Newfoundland had some common sense and Sask knows 



> Saskatchewan Surplus Projected to Rise 70% in 2012-13 Budget
> By Theophilos Argitis - Mar 21, 2012 4:33 PM ET
> 
> Saskatchewan’s budget surplus will grow by 70 percent in the coming fiscal year, as the prairie province benefits from higher royalties from resources such as potash, the province said in a fiscal plan released today.


by comparison



> 'This is ugly,' critics say as Alberta government predicts budget ...
> www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/This...Alberta.../story.html31 Aug 2012 – In first-quarter update, province forecasts deficit between $2.3 billion ... ugly,' critics say as Alberta government predicts budget deficit could hit 3 billion ...
> .


'This is ugly,' critics say as Alberta government predicts budget deficit could hit $3 billion

Trudeau may have apologized for political reasons.....
Most sensible Canadians know his remarks were right on the money.

by comparison in the effective world of Statoil



> Statoil, one of the world’s Top 10 oil companies and Europe’s second-largest natural gas supplier, is a top technology developer that shares what it knows,* is more transparent than many Canadian companies and has environmental standards that exceed Canada’s own.*
> 
> It engages its critics and has an arm’s-length relationship to a state that has so much in common with Canada Mr. Tungesvik describes this country as “Norway times 10.” In the oil sands, Statoil bought a startup and in barely five years turned it into one of the most successful thermal projects in Alberta.
> 
> As Mr. Tungesvik, who previously ran Statoil’s renewables business, put it:
> 
> “I am here to really optimize what we are doing, and to put an element of renewal into it, so that we can see that there is something happening with new technology in this segment that improves production and the environmental impact,” the 51-year old said in an interview Monday.


Norway’s state-owned energy giant Statoil wants to be judged on its own actions | Energy | News | Financial Post

keystone cops running this country


----------



## cap10subtext

Rats. We just lost Mark Carney. Mark Carney named Bank of England governor - Politics - CBC News


----------



## partsguy

Our loss is England's gain. Perhaps he can help straighten out the financial mess in Europe. A little global stability would be nice.


----------



## Dr.G.

cap10subtext said:


> Rats. We just lost Mark Carney. Mark Carney named Bank of England governor - Politics - CBC News


However, maybe Lord Conrad Black could replace him here in Canada??? We shall see.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Dr.G. said:


> However, maybe Lord Conrad Black could replace him here in Canada??? We shall see.


Looks like a job for Tiff Macklin.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Hey there's an Ontario Senate seat opening up in January and Robbie Ford would certainly be "entitled" to it. What about it Stevie?


----------



## FeXL

From MacDoc:



> 'This is ugly,' critics say as Alberta government predicts budget ...


There are several reasons for this.

First & foremost, our provincial gov't is Conservative in name only and far more resemble Liberals than anything.

Second comes from the very link you provided:



> However, Hennig said the government originally made wildly optimistic projections for other revenue streams, including corporate profits.


Typical progressive status quo.

Third, this spring they spent money like drunken progressive sailors.

As to two of the reasons why Saskabush's surplus is rising? 

First, Alberta raised oil royalties (exactly what you like to hear) and immediately a number of rigs hit the highway & headed one province east where royalties were less.

Second, Sask has an iron grip on the country's Potash supply so even if royalties are raised, there's no where else for potash miners to go.

Read. Learn.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> ... *Read. Learn.*


MacDoc seems to only read things that he agrees with so your proposition to him is unfortunately moot as it seems he doesn't want to listen to or consider dissenting opinions that don't reflect what he believes to be true.


----------



## FeXL

Hi, Screature, how are things?

The thing is, MacDoc is probably a pretty bright guy. However, when he just comes along, drops a great, steaming load in the middle of a thread & departs without supporting his argument (as he does throughout these boards), he comes across as a mindless drone. He is not interested in discussion, only in total domination. As such, his credibility fails miserably.

Frequently there is information in his links which even contradict his position. He gets his search engine going, grabs the first two or three links thinking they support his point of view, et voila!

Debate? Hah! That's for mere mortals. Talk about a God complex...


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Hi, Screature, how are things?
> 
> The thing is, MacDoc is probably a pretty bright guy. However, when he just comes along, drops a great, steaming load in the middle of a thread & departs without supporting his argument (as he does throughout these boards), he comes across as a mindless drone. He is not interested in discussion, only in total domination. As such, his credibility fails miserably.
> 
> Frequently there is information in his links which even contradict his position. He gets his search engine going, grabs the first two or three links thinking they support his point of view, et voila!
> 
> Debate? Hah! That's for mere mortals. Talk about a God complex...


Not too bad FeXL. Hope you are well. You have been away for a while, glad to have you back...


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> From MacDoc:
> 
> 
> 
> There are several reasons for this.
> 
> First & foremost, our provincial gov't is Conservative in name only and far more resemble Liberals than anything.
> 
> Second comes from the very link you provided:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical progressive status quo.
> 
> Third, this spring they spent money like drunken progressive sailors.
> 
> As to two of the reasons why Saskabush's surplus is rising?
> 
> First, Alberta raised oil royalties (exactly what you like to hear) and immediately a number of rigs hit the highway & headed one province east where royalties were less.
> 
> Second, Sask has an iron grip on the country's Potash supply so even if royalties are raised, there's no where else for potash miners to go.
> 
> Read. Learn.


Hmmm. That sounds rather like the federal conservatives.

The trouble is, they tend to come into office with all this bluster about cutting taxes, (which means mainly for corporations) and that somehow the fiery revenues which will ensue will keep pace with their usual insane spending. This of course all done with lots of talk about reduced spending and balanced budgets.

Then we hear that some aren't, 'real conservatives'. Well, huh, yeah...

Will the real conservative please stand up!!!! :lmao:

and cheers Fexl it's been a while.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> This of course all done with lots of talk about reduced spending and balanced budgets.


Yet when it was revealed a few weeks back that Harper had saved 5 or 8 billion (or whatever the amount was, I don't recall) more than the budget had initially predicted, the hue & cry from the left was immediate. Social programs cut! Think of the children! Whatever are we going to do? XX)


----------



## SINC

Tories and NDP hold on to seats in tight byelections - Canada - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

sounds like the liberal candidate really came close. His 32% o the tory 36%, certainly close the margin from past elections.

Very surprising for Calgary.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I'm surprised that the Green vote held and did not defect to Locke in Calgary. This points to the loyalty that Elizabeth May is cultivating in the party. With no democratic reform in sight, it's time the Greens, NDP, and Liberals worked on a strategic plan to reduce the number of CON seats because of vote splitting. Worst case scenario would be back to a Con minority, best case would be a coalition government. I would like either scenario.

Bravo to the Greens.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> I'm surprised that the Green vote held and did not defect to Locke in Calgary. This points to the loyalty that Elizabeth May is cultivating in the party. With no democratic reform in sight, it's time the Greens, NDP, and Liberals worked on a strategic plan to reduce the number of CON seats because of vote splitting. Worst case scenario would be back to a Con minority, best case would be a coalition government. I would like either scenario.
> 
> Bravo to the Greens.


Sure. Let's let the dogs, cats and rats all unite to defeat the CONS, because they have so much in common. The Greens, NDP and Liberals have less in common than do the Conservatives and the Liberals.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Sure. Let's let the dogs, cats and rats all unite to defeat the CONS, because they have so much in common. The Greens, NDP and Liberals have less in common than do the Conservatives and the Liberals.


Au contrare my skewed feathered friend, there is one common big issue that the majority wants to deal with and that's climate disruption. Beyond that there are a number of common social justice policies that are similar in all 3 parties. My own favourite would be to legislate food labelling standards.


----------



## Macfury

jimbotelecom said:


> Au contrare my skewed feathered friend, there is one common big issue that the majority wants to deal with and that's climate disruption. Beyond that there are a number of common social justice policies that are similar in all 3 parties. My own favourite would be to legislate food labelling standards.


Climate disruption? Is that what they'[re calling the natural change in weather these days? It certainly isn't a big issue in the minds of Canadian voters.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> Climate disruption? Is that what they'[re calling the natural change in weather these days? It certainly isn't a big issue in the minds of Canadian voters.


I prefer to use climate disruption as it is a more accurate term for warm places cooling, cool places warming etc. Mmmm I don't think the Greens would get too many votes if the issue was not on people's minds.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Sure. Let's let the dogs, cats and rats all unite to defeat the CONS, because they have so much in common. The Greens, NDP and Liberals have less in common than do the Conservatives and the Liberals.


Tommy Douglas Mouseland speech - YouTube

The Story of Mouseland: As told by Tommy Douglas in 1944 - YouTube


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> I'm surprised that the Green vote held and did not defect to Locke in Calgary. This points to the loyalty that Elizabeth May is cultivating in the party. With no democratic reform in sight, it's time the Greens, NDP, and Liberals worked on a strategic plan to reduce the number of CON seats because of vote splitting. Worst case scenario would be back to a Con minority, best case would be a coalition government. I would like either scenario.
> 
> Bravo to the Greens.


Only you could turn a defeat into a victory. 

You need to eat humble pie my friend, your prediction was wrong.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Sure. Let's let the dogs, cats and rats all unite to defeat the CONS, because they have so much in common. The Greens, NDP and Liberals have less in common than do the Conservatives and the Liberals.


I don't really disagree; at least federally, the Liberals have been an effectively neo-conservative party since Paul Martin. I do, however, see the Greens and the NDP having some significant overlap, and with the Liberals in disarray, I can't conceive of a better time to unite the left. I'd love to see a merger of the Greens, NDP and perhaps even some of the Liberals (the ones interested in a democratic and sustainable Canada, as opposed to the ones willing to cuddle with whatever corporate sponsor or special interest may be necessary to win).

Let's call this hypothetical new party the Sustainable Liberal Democrats. Imagine they run on a platform of democratic reform (including an elected senate), sustainable environmental and labour policies, progressive social policies, and a fiscal policy that balances the budget by closing corporate tax loopholes without increasing taxes on the middle class. I think they'd do quite well.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> your prediction was wrong.


What prediction was that?


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> What prediction was that?


Can't remember your own posts?



jimbotelecom said:


> I'm aware of the history of Rupert's land right through to today. I'm suggesting that things are becoming much more fluid especially in cities. My read of BC, Sask, and Manitoba is that they would if convinced vote NDP with little hesitation. Greens have made inroads in BC.
> 
> Alberta is now starting to show cracks in homogenous voting. Monday's results will be very interesting if the polling stands. *I think in spite of the McGuinty and Trudeau statements there will be a shift to the Liberals. *The student and Yuppie demographic is driving change in Calgary.
> 
> Canada's population has been majority urban since 1921. Urban results make or break a political entity regardless of where they are in the country.


----------



## jimbotelecom

screature said:


> Can't remember your own posts?


Ah yes. Note I didn't pick a winner in the riding as it was too close to call. I simply expected a desertion of Greens to Locke and it didn't happen. Hence my surprise.

Harvey has good green credentials having been involved in CPAWS for some 20 years. That's why I was surprised he didn't pick up some Greens.

No humble pie for me. Sorry.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Ah yes. Note I didn't pick a winner in the riding as it was too close to call. I simply expected a desertion of Greens to Locke and it didn't happen. Hence my surprise.
> 
> Harvey has good green credentials having been involved in CPAWS for some 20 years. That's why I was surprised he didn't pick up some Greens.
> 
> No humble pie for me. Sorry.


Looking at the results, there was more than just a 'shift' to the liberals!


----------



## Rps

bryanc, I think what we really need is a return of the Rhino Party.........


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> Ah yes. Note I didn't pick a winner in the riding as it was too close to call. I simply expected a desertion of Greens to Locke and it didn't happen. Hence my surprise.
> 
> Harvey has good green credentials having been involved in CPAWS for some 20 years. That's why I was surprised he didn't pick up some Greens.
> 
> No humble pie for me. Sorry.


Not only don't you remember your post it seems you can't even read it for what you said.

Sorry you said a shift to Liberals, you did pick a winner... yes humble pie for you.

Again and with greater emphasis this time so maybe you can read what you said about the Alberta by-election:



jimbotelecom said:


> *Alberta is now starting to show cracks in homogenous voting. Monday's results will be very interesting if the polling stands. I think in spite of the McGuinty and Trudeau statements there will be a shift to the Liberals. The student and Yuppie demographic is driving change in Calgary*.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Sorry you said a shift to Liberals, you did pick a winner.


Since when does a 'shift' towards a given political party constitute a prediction of their victory?

Did the Liberals get more votes than they did last time? If so, that was a "shift to the Liberals" and jumbo's prediction was correct. If not, then he was incorrect and should admit as much.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> *Since when does a 'shift' towards a given political party constitute a prediction of their victory?*
> 
> Did the Liberals get more votes than they did last time? If so, that was a "shift to the Liberals" and jumbo's prediction was correct. If not, then he was incorrect and should admit as much.


Give me a break!! A shift to a given party when speaking of an election indicates victory in politics. If you don't understand that then you aren't keeping up with the jargon. What a lame attempt to deflect from that which is patently obvious. Such malarkey.

Undoubtedly jimbo will now use the out you attempted to provide to qualify his statement, but I don't buy it for one second. He was predicting a Liberal victory, it is quite obvious.

How can there be change (as he indicates) if the status quo is maintained... hmm?


----------



## groovetube

I think Jimbo should just say UNCLE! before things get ugly...


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> A shift to a given party when speaking of an election indicates victory in politics. If you don't understand that then you aren't keeping up with the jargon.


Okay, sorry. I've always interpreted a 'shift' to indicate a significant change in voting; such as a "shift to the left as a younger demographic participates in a given election." It may or may not result in a different party winning, but it should indicate a "shift" in the views of the electorate.


----------



## MacDoc

I agree - a shift - as happened with the NDs is not necessarily a win but rather a change in status of significance.

A shift in voters say from a minority group that supported one party to a different party would be a shift without any "win" component.

It is what it is....a shift in voter preferences on meaningful scale.

Notably women voting in the last US election.


----------



## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> I agree - a shift - as happened with the NDs is not necessarily a win but rather a change in status of significance.
> 
> A shift in voters say from a minority group that supported one party to a different party would be a shift without any "win" component.
> 
> It is what it is....a shift in voter preferences on meaningful scale.
> 
> Notably women voting in the last US election.


but you're not "in the know" macdoc.


----------



## Rps

I'm sorry, I am not sure I am following the thread here .... what shift are we talking about? We had 3 Bi-elections and the Conservatives won 2 and the NDP one 1, isn't this very close to the current status quo in the House ....


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> I'm sorry, I am not sure I am following the thread here .... what shift are we talking about? We had 3 Bi-elections and the Conservatives won 2 and the NDP one 1, isn't this very close to the current status quo in the House ....


The shift referred to in this post by jimbotelecom:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-647.html#post1234681


----------



## Rps

Thanx Sinc. Just wondering, since you live in Alberta, do you see the landscape shifting toward the Liberals, or is it just the same.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Ah to shift or not to shift that is the question.


----------



## Dr.G.

And this from a bank .................. :clap::clap::clap: Now, all together ..... 1 ...2 ...3 ... let's hear it from the boo birds, as if on cue. 

"The benefits that society reaps from giving children high-quality education in their first years of life far outweigh the costs of providing it for them, a major Canadian bank said in a report Tuesday.

TD Bank said investing in early education programs will help Canada address the major economic threats its facing over the coming decades, including poverty, critical skills shortages and yawning productivity gaps that hold our economy back.

While the bank credits federal and provincial governments with providing funding for early childhood education, in most parts of Canada a large gap between the end of parental leave and the start of formal education exists, TD says, leaving parents on their own to bridge that gap."
Early childhood education pays for itself, TD says - Business - CBC News


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I'm sorry, I am not sure I am following the thread here .... what shift are we talking about? We had 3 Bi-elections and the Conservatives won 2 and the NDP one 1, isn't this very close to the current status quo in the House ....


Exactly status quo not a shift of any kind as jimbo predicted.


----------



## groovetube

The last election, there was a whopping *40%* difference between the liberal, and winning conservative candidate.

This election, there was a mere 4% difference between the two parties.

How anyone can stamp their feet that this doesn't represent a shift in voting intentions is anyone's guess. Good grief.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> The last election, there was a whopping *40%* difference between the liberal, and winning conservative candidate.
> 
> This election, there was a mere 4% difference between the two parties.


I'd call that a _tectonic_ shift!


----------



## Macfury

> Early childhood education pays for itself


Excellent! One more thing I don't have to pay for!


----------



## groovetube

Sen. Brazeau pens song about murdered, missing aboriginal women | CTV News

I think he and Harper should form a band.

Wonder what they should call it. hmmm.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I'd call that a _tectonic_ shift!


It is not a shift in terms of which party was was elected now is it? In order for it to have been a shift to the Liberals they would have had to win. They didn't.

The seat was previously held by Lee Richardson who was an iconic MP respected on all sides. Even Elizabeth May glowed about him in her farewell speech to him in the House of Commons. It is not at all surprising that an unknown would have a much tougher fight than an incumbent such as Lee Richardson.

That it was close is a reflection of the fact that Lee Richardson was not running. It seems that some comments made by some here don't seem to display much knowledge about the riding or the dynamics that were at play.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Excellent! One more thing I don't have to pay for!


Luckily, your tax dollars are put to good use in this case. Kudos, welcome to the fight to help educate young children. Paix, mon ami.

Welcome Back To The Fight - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It is not a shift in terms of which party was was elected now is it?


well duh.


----------



## jimbotelecom

There was certainly a large shift away from the Cons in Calgary. Mind you we had what...27% turnout. A ton of Calgary centre cons stayed home to protest media darling crumpett's support of the wild hoes party.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> There was certainly a large shift away from the Cons in Calgary. Mind you we had what...27% turnout. *A ton of Calgary centre cons stayed home to protest media darling crumpett's support of the wild hoes party.*


What an insulting piece of drivel this is.... You have reached a new low, even for you with a multitude of other low comments directed to those who you dislike....

*Absolutely disgusting!*


----------



## SINC

jimbotelecom said:


> There was certainly a large shift away from the Cons in Calgary. Mind you we had what...27% turnout. A ton of Calgary centre cons stayed home to protest media darling crumpett's support of the wild hoes party.


You are way out of line. As a Wildrose supporter I resent your childish and irresponsible insult. An apology is due forthwith.


----------



## ehMax

jimbotelecom said:


> There was certainly a large shift away from the Cons in Calgary. Mind you we had what...27% turnout. A ton of Calgary centre cons stayed home to protest media darling crumpett's support of the wild hoes party.


Very inappropriate comment on ehMac (Enough to briefly pull me out of retirement). Please take a week off, and if you decide to return, an apology would be in order as well as refraining from any similar comments. 

Thank you.


----------



## heavyall

Shift? Seats stayed the same. One party almost did something, but ended up not. How did that not happen when it looked like it might? Oh, right, federal Liberal(s) disparaged Alberta. Sounds like more of the same to me.

Nice to see the female candidate beat out the old white males in Calgary. Good thing we have those progressive parties to... what? Oh, nevermind.


----------



## Rps

jimbotelecom said:


> There was certainly a large shift away from the Cons in Calgary. Mind you we had what...27% turnout. A ton of Calgary centre cons stayed home to protest media darling crumpett's support of the wild hoes party.


Not exactly a post in good taste maybe a recant would be in order.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Shift? Seats stayed the same. One party almost did something, but ended up not. How did that not happen when it looked like it might? Oh, right, federal Liberal(s) disparaged Alberta. Sounds like more of the same to me.
> 
> Nice to see the female candidate beat out the old white males in Calgary. Good thing we have those progressive parties to... what? Oh, nevermind.


I don't think anyone is necessarily thumping on the conservative who won the seat, but what we thought was news, was how it went from a 40% lead last time, to a mere 4% one this time.

Everybody up in arms about this. Anyway, it was an interesting by-election in that regard.


----------



## screature

jimbotelecom said:


> There was certainly a large shift away from the Cons in Calgary. Mind you we had what...27% turnout. A ton of Calgary centre cons stayed home to protest media darling crumpett's support of the wild hoes party.





screature said:


> What an insulting piece of drivel this is.... You have reached a new low, even for you with a multitude of other low comments directed to those who you dislike....
> 
> *Absolutely disgusting!*





ehMax said:


> Very inappropriate comment on ehMac (Enough to briefly pull me out of retirement). Please take a week off, and if you decide to return, an apology would be in order as well as refraining from any similar comments.
> 
> Thank you.


Thank you for this ehMax... you staying on as a moderator?


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Not exactly a post in good taste maybe a recant would be in order.


wow from shaking the queen's hand to getting the boot tout suite on ehMac. My head's spinning.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Not exactly a post in good taste maybe a recant would be in order.


Agreed, but the reality is, he was the master of his own destiny making a post like that as it was rude, crude and justice has been served. Thanks ehMax, retired or not.


----------



## groovetube

Let's see, so I have this straight now, so making -that- comment is a no no, not to mention the time I used the word (GASP!) troll! however, going around here calling people drug addicts publicly is ok!

I guess some are the chosen ones!


----------



## Rps

Question for you ........ Marc Garneau has thrown his hat into the ring for the leadership of the Liberals, so , is he a credible candidate and does he have the wheels to unseat Harper? Let the debates begin.................


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Question for you ........ Marc Garneau has thrown his hat into the ring for the leadership of the Liberals, so , is he a credible candidate and does he have the wheels to unseat Harper? Let the debates begin.................


good question. I don't know a lot about Garneau, I should look into him.


----------



## Lawrence

SINC said:


> Agreed, but the reality is, he was the master of his own destiny making a post like that as it was rude, crude and justice has been served. Thanks ehMax, retired or not.


Gonna be tough to post now, Haveta maget sturg igg sna...golivarzonhofin.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Question for you ........ Marc Garneau has thrown his hat into the ring for the leadership of the Liberals, so , is he a credible candidate and does he have the wheels to unseat Harper? Let the debates begin.................


I think he is a credible candidate in terms of being a known figure. Personally I have not been impressed with his performance in the House I find him surprising shrill at times which IMO only weakens his argument(s), whatever they might be.

I don't think he has a chance against Trudeau... I don't think anyone has a chance against Trudeau at this point, so whether or not he has "the wheels to unseat Harper" is a moot question IMO.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> I think he is a credible candidate in terms of being a known figure. Personally I have not been impressed with his performance in the House I find him surprising shrill at times which IMO only weakens his argument(s), whatever they might be.
> 
> I don't think he has a chance against Trudeau... I don't think anyone has a chance against Trudeau at this point, so whether or not he has "the wheels to unseat Harper" is a moot question IMO.


OTOH attack ads against a career astronaut are far more likely to backfire on the Cons than say those on a career politician wearing the Trudeau tiara.


----------



## MacDoc

I don't see any Liberal majority in a long long time Trudeau.....the NDP and Libs need to do what other nations do and get coalition into their lexicon and not give a damn about Harper's scare tactics on that front.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> OTOH attack ads against* a career astronaut* are far more likely to backfire on the Cons than say those on a career politician wearing the Trudeau tiara.


He is *not* a career astronaut, no astronaut is and even that short lived experience, as brief as it was, does not necessarily translate into being a good political leader or politician. 

He had his 15 minutes of fame but it has been over for a long time now and does not have any bearing on his ability to lead a party or the nation.

Cripes if it did Neil Armstrong should have been President of the United States or at least John Glenn and he couldn't even win the *nomination* for Vice President.

My prediction is that Garneau will be an also ran in the Liberal leadership race/ordination.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> I don't see any Liberal majority in a long long time Trudeau.....*the NDP and Libs need to do what other nations do and get coalition into their lexicon* and not give a damn about Harper's scare tactics on that front.


Except that neither party nor their membership has much interest in the notion, it is just the media keeping the idea alive with the general public who have no say in the matter... maybe you should get used that.

Aside from posting here are you involved in either political party at any level or are you just a typical armchair politico filled with much opinion but next to no action?


----------



## groovetube

the same was said about the reform party and the conservatives. I seem to recall someone promising not to merge with the reform party at one point.

Wonder what happened there...


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> the same was said about the reform party and the conservatives. I seem to recall someone promising not to merge with the reform party at one point.
> 
> Wonder what happened there...


Loved it when they became the C.R.A.P. party.


----------



## BigDL

From what I heard so far from the Garneau campaign launch it sounds as if Garneau is going after the Ontario vote in a general election. It sounds the correct notes on the right side of the spectrum and average voter.

Could be the right will get crowded should either Marc Garneau or Martha Hall Findlay for the Liberals and Elizabeth May for the Greens. 

The only space for Harper's Strong Stable Majority Conservative Governemnt™ is further right.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> From what I heard so far from the Garneau campaign launch it sounds as if Garneau is going after the Ontario vote in a general election. It sounds the correct notes on the right side of the spectrum and average voter.
> 
> Could be the right will get crowded should either Marc Garneau or Martha Hall Findlay for the Liberals and Elizabeth May for the Greens.
> 
> The only space for Harper's Strong Stable Majority Conservative Governemnt™ is further right.


easy there pardner with the strong stable majority stuff. That could be misinterpreted a few different ways!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Could be the right will get crowded should either Marc Garneau or Martha Hall Findlay for the Liberals and Elizabeth May for the Greens.



I like Findlay the best of the lot, especially her promise to reform the "marketing board" system of agriculture that keeps food prices artificially high.


----------



## Sonal

Honestly, I don't think Garneau has a chance at leadership. He was the first Canadian in space... in this country, that doesn't make you a national hero or anything. (Might be a different story if he played hockey, but that didn't work out for Ken Dryden, so perhaps not.)

And Martha Hall Findlay... I know the name, but aside from that nothing sticks in my mind about her--had to go look her up. Somehow, she doesn't hold media attention well. And she can't even hold her own riding. Somehow I don't think leadership is in the stars for her.


----------



## SINC

The Libs are in a sad state. They can't even field a leadership candidate that has a hope in hell of returning the party to its former strength. I doubt that can even happen in the next decade. They burned too many bridges with Canadian voters.


----------



## groovetube

Polling numbers put Trudeau to forming the next government. Now I realize these are just, polls, but it's the first time such optimistic news has been there for the liberals. 

Harper is busy burning his bridges with Canadians, and that will only accelerate as more and more skulldudgery gets uncovered. Really, they can only deflect for so long, just as the liberals found out.

If the liberals choose wisely, they could help severely blunt the ndp.

If not, well, we may possibly see a minority for Harper, and a uniting of the left. That would spell the end of these pseudo-conservatives.


----------



## CubaMark

*Shocking!*

*XL Foods: Inspectors told to ignore contaminated carcasses*



> Federal beef inspectors were told to ignore contamination on carcasses being processed for sale to Canadians at the XL Foods plant.
> 
> A memo from a Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) meat hygiene supervisor obtained by CTV News instructed CFIA inspectors to closely examine carcasses being processed for shipment to Japan, but to ignore visible contamination on meat for Canadians.
> 
> “Our number 1 priority is to ensure this standard is met with Japan eligible carcasses,” said the memo.
> 
> “Ensure that non-Japan-eligible carcasses are not inspected for spinal cord/dura mater, OCD (other carcass defects) and minor ingesta,” the note said. “Ignore them.”


(TorontoStar)


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> The Libs are in a sad state. They can't even field a leadership candidate that has a hope in hell of returning the party to its former strength. I doubt that can even happen in the next decade. They burned too many bridges with Canadian voters.


Sinc, one could say that Harper is doing this as well. While I'm not a conservative supporter, you have to give the man his due.....we survived some tough world issues fairly well under his watch ( with much help from the prior Liberal government on banking issues ). But all governments come to an end and usually quite harshly.

I don't think it's just the Liberals who have an empty cupboard, but the Cons could be in that position as well. When I first got actively involved in politics in the 70's each party had legions of members whom would be King.....not so sure we can say that today. I really think "The Flare" is done and will leave soon, Tony C, nowhere, so whose left.

This I think is due to the general lack of interest by ordinary citizens to run..... and running takes money and time which many do not have the luxury of....... Where are today's MacDonalds, Greys, Turners,Weilands Clarks, Broadbents, and the list goes on..........


----------



## SINC

Rps, there are plenty of young Turks on the sidelines awaiting their turn in the west for sure. Non of them names you would recognize, but rest assured they are indeed there.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Rps, there are plenty of young Turks on the sidelines awaiting their turn in the west for sure. Non of them names you would recognize, but rest assured they are indeed there.


Sinc, I'm not sure that this doesn't prove my point .... while there will always be the young Turks out there, in the old days we new who they were ...... When I was younger the names of the cabinet and shadow cabinet members were common knowledge. When you had a leadership review it would be safe to say that the country knew many of the challengers and all could be considered equally qualified...... the only time we hear about the members today is when there is a scandal or they are being dumped. But I do agree there is always a regional candidate who breaks through....... I guess Manning and Harper would fall in that category.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> Sinc, one could say that Harper is doing this as well. While I'm not a conservative supporter, you have to give the man his due.....we survived some tough world issues fairly well under his watch ( with much help from the prior Liberal government on banking issues ). But all governments come to an end and usually quite harshly.
> 
> I don't think it's just the Liberals who have an empty cupboard, but the Cons could be in that position as well. When I first got actively involved in politics in the 70's each party had legions of members whom would be King.....not so sure we can say that today. I really think "The Flare" is done and will leave soon, Tony C, nowhere, so whose left.
> 
> This I think is due to the general lack of interest by ordinary citizens to run..... and running takes money and time which many do not have the luxury of....... Where are today's MacDonalds, Greys, Turners,Weilands Clarks, Broadbents, and the list goes on..........


I was thinking the same thing yesterday.

The Liberals and the PC's used have a deep front bench that spotlighted the leadership skills of Ministers or (opposition) Critics.

Since the time of Liberals being at "civil war" within that Party and the Conservatives having a tight "cap" on its members from the PMO, there seems to be a huge void in leadership in these Parties.

I was thinking perhaps that I just viewed these politicians with a jaundiced eye because of my age.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> The Libs are in a sad state. They can't even field a leadership candidate that has a hope in hell of returning the party to its former strength. I doubt that can even happen in the next decade. They burned too many bridges with Canadian voters.


I don't see that as a right vs left thing though. The Republicans are in the same boat in the US (even when it looks like it should be easy to beat the incumbent, they just can't put together the team/plan/leader that resonates with the public anymore. People are just tired of the old cliche of all politicians being corrupt. The old "brands" are waning in what power they used to yield. Only the ones who present what appears to be something new (even superficially) are getting traction these days.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Polling numbers put Trudeau to forming the next government. Now I realize these are just, polls, but it's the first time such optimistic news has been there for the liberals.


Ignatieff's early polling said similar things too. The new thing piques people's interest, but it doesn't hold them unless what they're offering is good too.

I'm not sure where Trudeau could go to bring the Conservatives below 35% in an election. The only part of the CPC base that is truly unhappy are the ones who are angry that Harper has not been conservative enough. Basically the same ones who caused the old PC party to collapse when they left for the Reform Party. To get those votes, I think Trudeau would have to move farther right than Harper. I'm not sure that his existing supporters would be on board for something like that.


----------



## Sonal

heavyall said:


> Ignatieff's early polling said similar things too. The new thing piques people's interest, but it doesn't hold them unless what they're offering is good too.
> 
> I'm not sure where Trudeau could go to bring the Conservatives below 35% in an election. The only part of the CPC base that is truly unhappy are the ones who are angry that Harper has not been conservative enough. Basically the same ones who caused the old PC party to collapse when they left for the Reform Party. To get those votes, I think Trudeau would have to move farther right than Harper. I'm not sure that his existing supporters would be on board for something like that.


I think Trudeau would have to come out as an Blue Liberal... socially liberal, fiscally conservative to do well. None of this "slightly less left than the NDP" business of old. 

Harper has the fiscal conservative side down, at least in image (I don't know enough of the details to be able to say if that's also fact) but on the social side he's not great. I think Trudeau could pull Harper's more socially liberal supporters so long as he made them happy on the fiscal side.

It'll come down to the campaign though. Ignatief ran a spectacularly bad campaign based on "well if you don't like Harper, what other choice to you have?" Voters showed him.


----------



## heavyall

Sonal said:


> Harper has the fiscal conservative side down, at least in image (I don't know enough of the details to be able to say if that's also fact) but on the social side he's not great. I think Trudeau could pull Harper's more socially liberal supporters so long as he made them happy on the fiscal side.


The problem is, the social side is where Harper's supporters are the most disappointed. He's far too left for their liking.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> The problem is, the social side is where Harper's supporters are the most disappointed. He's far too left for their liking.


I think you're talking about his core supporters. The ones that will never vote liberal or ndp, or green for that matter anyway.

It's the swing vote, the red tories that will matter. The liberals made the huge mistake of going left and allowing Harper to move in on the centrist vote which is where the majority of Canadians reside.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The problem is, the social side is where Harper's supporters are the most disappointed. He's far too left for their liking.


I would drop Harper like a hot potato if someone more fiscally conservative showed up. My favourite social policies are "none at all."


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I think you're talking about his core supporters. The ones that will never vote liberal or ndp, or green for that matter anyway.
> 
> It's the swing vote, the red tories that will matter. The liberals made the huge mistake of going left and allowing Harper to move in on the centrist vote which is where the majority of Canadians reside.


Yes, exactly.

Trudeau has no more hope of winning over the hardcore conservative supporters than Harper does of winning over the hardcore NDP supporters. It's that changeable mass in the middle he needs to win over.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I think you're talking about his core supporters. The ones that will never vote liberal or ndp, or green for that matter anyway.


I'm talking about the core of Canadian voters who actually show up to vote and support their party financially. Policy is what matters to them, not the brand name on the ballot. Their vote is parked with the CPC for lack of of a better option. They've changed allegiances before, and they've have no issue doing it again.

Just being another option to the guy you don't like isn't enough. There has to be a compelling reason why the new guy is going to do things better. If better to you means one side of the political spectrum, policies on the other side will never spark an exodus no matter how unhappy they are with what they've got.


----------



## i-rui

Social conservatism is a dead-end for any party that wants a future. In the short term you may get some votes but in the long run you will alienate the majority of people as the young get politically aware and grow older. That type of thinking will be extinct like the dinosaurs as time passes.

The best thing that could happen to the left would be a new social conservative party to emerge to siphon votes away from Harper.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Social conservatism is a dead-end for any party that wants a future. In the short term you may get some votes but in the long run you will alienate the majority of people as the young get politically aware and grow older. That type of thinking will be extinct like the dinosaurs as time passes.
> 
> The best thing that could happen to the left would be a new social conservative party to emerge to siphon votes away from Harper.


You are so wrong here. "Social conservatism" is an ongoing phenomenon and occurs when "the young get politically aware and grow older." However, the nature of what constitutes that social conservatism changes. At this point, the "progressive" segment of society is becoming so hidebound and politically correct that it's clear that a new group of conservatives is emerging. The current free thinkers are pretty much thinking freely in lockstep with each other.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> I'm talking about the core of Canadian voters who actually show up to vote and support their party financially. Policy is what matters to them, not the brand name on the ballot. Their vote is parked with the CPC for lack of of a better option. They've changed allegiances before, and they've have no issue doing it again.
> 
> Just being another option to the guy you don't like isn't enough. There has to be a compelling reason why the new guy is going to do things better. If better to you means one side of the political spectrum, policies on the other side will never spark an exodus no matter how unhappy they are with what they've got.


No. If you're saying that Harper supporters are disappointed because he is too far left, then you are referring to core conservative supporters, not centrist, or swing votes. Because Harper had to go slightly left, or at least appear to, in order to win that huge number over. Certainly just enough to get the majority he so coveted.

If he were to swing back to the right, his support in Canada would erode overnight, a liberal or ndp candidate would move into the center and form the next government. Only in the wildest dreams of the further right would a far right party actually take power in Canada.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I would drop Harper like a hot potato if someone more fiscally conservative showed up. My favourite social policies are "none at all."


Really! So I suppose you are going to return the money that was spent on you and yours by the health care system, if you have a pension will you be sending that back, if you had children or even yourself, will you be sending back the money spent on education ( I hope you aren't under the delusion that your money paid for that cost ...unless of course it was in a private school ).


----------



## bryanc

Rps said:


> Really! So I suppose you are going to return the money that was spent on you and yours by the health care system, if you have a pension will you be sending that back, if you had children or even yourself, will you be sending back the money spent on education ( I hope you aren't under the delusion that your money paid for that cost ...unless of course it was in a private school ).


Not to mention the roads or other infrastructure, the people who inspect the food, test the water, police the streets, or serve in the military. And then there are the issues that are very hard to quantify; would corporations voluntarily limit how the pollute the air we breathe if governments didn't regulate and enforce standards? Would the people who have grown up with parks, educations, art, literature, etc. be significantly different if government social programs had not provided these things? How can we define who is a beneficiary of these sorts of things, so that the "user can pay?" We are all beneficiaries of civilization; we are all users. So we must all pay our share, and those who have benefited the most should pay the most.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Really! So I suppose you are going to return the money that was spent on you and yours by the* health care system*, if you have a pension will you be sending that back, if you had children or even yourself, will you be sending back the *money spent on education *( I hope you aren't under the delusion that your money paid for that cost ...unless of course it was in a private school ).


Health care and education fall under provincial jurisdiction, not federal. The feds provide transfer payments to the provinces 'tis true but it is completely up to the provinces as to how they spend it. They make the policies and determine their priorities.


----------



## Rps

Screature, I understand this, but MacFury indicated that in his view there should be no social programmes .... it doesn't matter who funds them, it all comes out of the pockets of Canadians.....but I disagree that we should not have any social programmes.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, I understand this, but MacFury indicated that in his view there should be no social programmes .... it doesn't matter who funds them, it all comes out of the pockets of Canadians.....*but I disagree that we should not have any social programmes.*


And so do I but it is a matter of which level of government provides them.

If the NDP and Liberals had their way there would be a "national" strategy for everything from homelessness to dandruff control which completely abrogates/denies the fact that we are a confederation of provinces. 

The provinces have jurisdiction over many social programs that are theirs by the very nature of our constitution and for the feds to take control of these programs or direct them goes against our constitution.

It is quite frankly ridiculous to propose such "national strategies" when we all know that Quebec would never accept a national strategy on anything, as they would (quite rightly) demand their right to make their own policies that fall under their constitutional jurisdiction.


----------



## groovetube

it seems to me that conservatives have shown quite clearly to anyone watching that they have national programs for just about everything including hundreds of millions to promote themselves -and- their national strategies!


----------



## BigDL

*A Liberal That Thinks Like Sinc and Others*

...and it's... 










CBCNEWS said:


> Liberal leadership candidate Justin Trudeau called the long-gun registry "a failure," during a campaign stop in the Conservative riding of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell on Friday.
> 
> "The long-gun registry as it was, was a failure and I'm not going to resuscitate that," said Trudeau while visiting the DART Aerospace plant in Hawkesbury.


Treudeau call long-gun registry "A Failure."


----------



## groovetube

The truth is, he's likely not going after sinc's vote. It's the large number of swing votes who once voted for the liberals he's after. And after nearly a decade of Harper, he may pull it off.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> The truth is, he's likely not going after sinc's vote. It's the large number of swing votes who once voted for the liberals he's after. And after nearly a decade of Harper, he may pull it off.


Yep.

Harper's majority comes (largely) from slowly eking out ridings from Red Ontario. If Trudeau can get those votes, he will do well.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> A Liberal That Thinks Like Sinc and Others...


There isn't a Liberal alive that would ever get my vote.


----------



## kps

So why did Trudeau "the shiny pony" vote against C-19, why all of a sudden he supports CNOOC/Nexen deal, why is he back pedalling on the Alberta statement...etc, etc,

He's a shameless liar, hope Canadians see through his BS and send him packing like Iggy.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> So why did Trudeau "the shiny pony" vote against C-19, why all of a sudden he supports CNOOC/Nexen deal, why is he back pedalling on the Alberta statement...etc, etc,
> 
> He's a shameless liar, hope Canadians see through his BS and send him packing like Iggy.


The same way canadians sent Harper packing after first supporting a gun registry then backpedaling, amongst other flip flops?

Bah ha ha.


----------



## bryanc

kps said:


> He's a *career politician*


T,FTFY. No different than any other. Why people are appalled when politicians of a different stripe lie but not when politicians of their favourite stripe lie never ceases to amaze me. They'll all say whatever they think we want to hear. What's revealing is what _they_ think we want to hear.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> t,ftfy. No different than any other. Why people are appalled when politicians of a different stripe lie but not when politicians of their favourite stripe lie never ceases to amaze me. They'll all say whatever they think we want to hear. What's revealing is what _they_ think we want to hear.


+1


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> The same way canadians sent Harper packing after first supporting a gun registry then backpedaling, amongst other flip flops?
> 
> Bah ha ha.


Bah, ha ha nothing, this isn't about Harper, but regardless, so Turdeau is the same as Harper then. Why bother then. Harper at least kept his word and got rid of it.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Bah, ha ha nothing, this isn't about Harper, but regardless, so Turdeau is the same as Harper then. Why bother then. Harper at least kept his word and got rid of it.


thank heavens for small miracles!

I'm just saying, it seems the electorate has a pretty short memory especially when it comes to flip flops, as Harper has shown quite a few times.


----------



## kps

They'll give it to Kennedy for old times sake, the shiny pony will be out for now.


----------



## heavyall

kps said:


> So why did Trudeau "the shiny pony" vote against C-19, why all of a sudden he supports CNOOC/Nexen deal, why is he back pedalling on the Alberta statement...etc, etc,
> 
> He's a shameless liar, hope Canadians see through his BS and send him packing like Iggy.


He's a politician, so the lying part goes without saying.

He knows he can't win going left, and the centre is already taken. If he wants to improve the Liberals' seat count, he can either say "me too" to Harper's policies, or he can move to the right of them.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Really! So I suppose you are going to return the money that was spent on you and yours by the health care system, if you have a pension will you be sending that back, if you had children or even yourself, will you be sending back the money spent on education ( I hope you aren't under the delusion that your money paid for that cost ...unless of course it was in a private school ).


Programs are not policies. I am saying that I want the government to be agnostic as far as "what Canadian society should look like."


----------



## groovetube

Boy, I guess conservative governments must be a real let down in that regard!

They seem to have a much stronger narrower view of what that should be...


----------



## kps

Well at least some people are starting to see what Turdeau is all about. Riding daddy's coat-tails isn't going to be enough.



> "When he's in Quebec he says Albertans have too much power, but when he's in Alberta he says the opposite. When he's with his Liberal friends he votes in favour of the long-gun registry, when he's in a rural community he calls it a failure.
> 
> "Justin Trudeau will tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear, whenever he thinks you want to hear it," Poilievre said.


Trudeau under fire for long-gun registry comments - Politics - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> Well at least some people are starting to see what Turdeau is all about. Riding daddy's coat-tails isn't going to be enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau under fire for long-gun registry comments - Politics - CBC News


Sounds just like a career politician to me. Of course he does not have to fool an entire nation, only about 32% of population of Ontario and Quebec.


----------



## kps

Well he's not very good at it...perhaps he'd be better off back teaching public school.

P.S. Left one for you in the Visually Humourous Piece of the Day.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> ....
> 
> P.S. Left one for you in the Visually Humourous Piece of the Day.


Hilarious. Does remind one that the first step in balancing the budget is casting the driftwood adrift.


----------



## CubaMark

*Near-brawl erupts in House of Commons*












> A verbal dust-up in the House of Commons almost wound up in a bench-clearing brawl.
> 
> Peter Van Loan, the government’s House leader, appeared to set off the incident when he stormed across the floor of the Commons to confront his NDP counterpart, Nathan Cullen.
> 
> Microphones were shut off but video tape shows Van Loan waving his finger at Cullen and speaking in a heated manner.





> Finally, Defence Minister Peter MacKay rushes over, puts his hand on Van Loan’s shoulder and ushers him back across the centre aisle of the Commons to the government benches.
> 
> The contretemps was sparked by an NDP attempt to have a vote on the government’s omnibus budget bill ruled invalid because Finance Minister Jim Flaherty had been absent, even though he was named as the mover of the motion to pass the bill.


(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

Waving a finger at someone is a "near-brawl"?


----------



## groovetube

Sometimes you just gotta spoon feed


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Waving a finger at someone is a "near-brawl"?


Read the article, willya?

Van Loan crossed the floor and confronted Cullen in what is described as a threatening manner - other NDP MPs rose and approached to protect their house leader. MacKay had to come over and pull Van Loan back.

It's no stretch to imagine that devolving into a Ukrainian parliamentary situation...


----------



## Macfury

I guess some people have very tender sensibilities.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I guess some people have very tender sensibilities.


Not really, but I do expect my elected representatives to behave as civilized adults. If truck drivers or hockey players want to settle their disputes physically, that's none of my concern. But MPs in the House of Commons can reasonably be held to a higher standard.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Not really, but I do expect my elected representatives to behave as civilized adults. If truck drivers or hockey players want to settle their disputes physically, that's none of my concern. But MPs in the House of Commons can reasonably be held to a higher standard.


I do as well. However, this is not a "near-brawl."


----------



## groovetube

Yes let's not get near the real issue but instead run in circles over the obvious.

classic.


----------



## bryanc

Indeed, one cannot help but wonder why Harper's government is so terrified of parliamentary process and debate that they have to cram their legislative agenda into giant omnibus bills. You'd think they were worried that Canadians might wake up and start questioning their motives if there was any discussion of alternatives.


----------



## Macfury

I support fewer omnibus bills, but I imagine most Canadians think an Omnibus is a form of public transit.


----------



## groovetube

It appears that Harper thinks Canadians are not very bright either.


----------



## screature

Has anyone actually looked at the footage? I have. The media as per usual over-hyped the situation to get readers and viewers. It was very tame really and there is no way that Van Loan could be seen as being "threatening" he got down on his knees to be at eye level with Cullen for god's sake... Seems Cullen and Mulcair must be of frail constitution to feel threatened by a man on his knees on the other side of a desk. 

Here is the link for anyone that wants to see what actually happened:

Exchange


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Has anyone actually looked at the footage? I have. The media as per usual over-hyped the situation to get readers and viewers. It was very tame really and there is no way that Van Loan could be seen as being "threatening" he got down on his knees to be at eye level with Cullen for god's sake... Seems Cullen and Mulcair must be of frail constitution to feel threatened by a man on his knees on the other side of a desk.


screature, have some compassion. To a pantywaist, this is very frightening footage.


----------



## groovetube

North Korea spends more than $100 on Kim Jong-il tributes | World | News | National Post

It's funny that people might gasp at the 100+ million in tributes to their dear leader, when right here our dear leader has spent easily that in just the advertising of itself alone.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Has anyone actually looked at the footage? I have. The media as per usual over-hyped the situation to get readers and viewers. It was very tame really and there is no way that Van Loan could be seen as being "threatening" he got down on his knees to be at eye level with Cullen for god's sake... Seems Cullen and Mulcair must be of frail constitution to feel threatened by a man on his knees on the other side of a desk.
> 
> Here is the link for anyone that wants to see what actually happened:
> 
> Exchange


Been seeing a huge difference between Mulcair and Jack layton.

My wife corresponded with Mr. Laytons office on a few occasions. The responses clearly indicated that the staff member responding had read and understood the original eMail. No they did not always agree, but they were always courteous and well informed.

The lone response from Mulcair said in effect they were far too busy to even read, let alone properly respond to your eMail.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Has anyone actually looked at the footage?...
> [/LIST]Here is the link for anyone that wants to see what actually happened:
> 
> Exchange


That link doesn't show much; I listened to the interviews with Van Loan and Cullen as well, and it seems that the audio record is really what will settle this.

Regardless, it's a tempest in a tea pot. What's at issue here is the chronic contempt of parliament shown by the Conservatives; while they may have a majority of the seats, they were not elected by a majority of Canadians, and their policies are not supported by the majority of Canadians. Their abuse of omnibus bills to avoid traditional parliamentary debate illustrates not only their contempt of parliament, but also their contempt for Canadians.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> ....the Conservatives; while they may have a majority of the seats, they were not elected by a majority of Canadians....


Blah, blah, bah... This is not relevant. you're only trotting out that old saw because you're not thinking clearly. Would an omnibus bill be good policy if they received 51% of the vote? If not, then don't use use such supporting arguments.


----------



## bryanc

*Speaking of contempt...*

Here's a letter from Canadian scientists to Stephen Harper regarding the Conservative's plan to "streamline" (i.e. eliminate) Canada's Species At Risk Act as part of their corporate agenda.



> As there is no evidence that the documented problems derive from the Act itself, we oppose re-opening this legislation.





> SARA’s problems can be attributed directly to the government’s failure to comply with several of the Act’s legal requirements.





> In a last resort to force compliance with its own law, civil society has turned to litigation; the government has lost decisively in every case. As the judge in a 2009 case concerning the Nooksack Dace noted, “This is a story about the creation and application of policy by the Minister in clear contravention of the law, and a reluctance to be held accountable for failure to follow the law.”


While many of us have known this for a very long time; there can be no doubt now that Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party have nothing but contempt for Canada and Canadian values. Their government exists to serve the corporate agenda of the resource industry.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Here's a letter from Canadian scientists to Stephen Harper regarding the Conservative's plan to "streamline" (i.e. eliminate) Canada's Species At Risk Act as part of their corporate agenda.


Kicked in the Nooksack!

Seriously, which changes have been announced?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Here's a letter from Canadian scientists to Stephen Harper regarding the Conservative's plan to "streamline" (i.e. eliminate) Canada's Species At Risk Act as part of their corporate agenda.
> 
> While many of us have known this for a very long time;* there can be no doubt now that Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party have nothing but contempt for Canada and Canadian values. Their government exists to serve the corporate agenda of the resource industry.*


What a ridiculous conclusion for someone who professes to act and speak rationally this is pure hyperbole.


----------



## groovetube

funny enough, there is a real growing number of Canadians who feel the same way.

Pure hyperbole my arse.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Has anyone actually looked at the footage? I have. The media as per usual over-hyped the situation to get readers and viewers. It was very tame really and there is no way that Van Loan could be seen as being "threatening" he got down on his knees to be at eye level with Cullen for god's sake... Seems Cullen and Mulcair must be of frail constitution to feel threatened by a man on his knees on the other side of a desk.
> 
> Here is the link for anyone that wants to see what actually happened:
> 
> Exchange


Thanks for the link, screature. The short clip you provided, which begins with Van Loan getting to his knees, does indeed show what appears to be nothing more than a conversation, though perhaps heated.

If one clicks on the extended clip (sidebar-right), you see the moment when Van Loan crosses the floor. at the 00:10-00:12 mark, his approach is rather more threatening.

Still - the "brawl" spin was a bit much, as none of the MPs who rose or crossed the floor after Van Loan appeared to be interested in anything other than moving people to their respective positions and getting on with business.


----------



## MacDoc

Yup - 

Now can you imagine Harpo pulling this off.....

Australia - good gov and a sense of humour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebtj3gDaE64


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Yup -
> 
> Now can you imagine Harpo pulling this off.....


Yes I can!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Yes I can!


Rick Mercer's Sleepover with Stephen Harper - YouTube
:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Rick Mercer's Sleepover with Stephen Harper - YouTube
> :lmao:


That's the one!


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Thanks for the link, screature. * The short clip you provided, which begins with Van Loan getting to his knees, does indeed show what appears to be nothing more than a conversation, though perhaps heated.*
> 
> If one clicks on the extended clip (sidebar-right), you see the moment when Van Loan crosses the floor. at the 00:10-00:12 mark, his approach is rather more threatening.
> 
> Still - the "brawl" spin was a bit much, as none of the MPs who rose or crossed the floor after Van Loan appeared to be interested in anything other than moving people to their respective positions and getting on with business.


The extended clip was the one that I thought I was linking to... sorry for that. But I have to disagree that his approach in anyway looks threatening... The way he is pointing to Cullen is quite mild.

Watch Peter Julian sometime during QP going out half way into the aisle yelling and jabbing his finger at the Government if you want to see something threatening.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That's the one!


Shows that he has a sense of humor. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> Thanks for the link, screature. The short clip you provided, which begins with Van Loan getting to his knees, does indeed show what appears to be nothing more than a conversation, though perhaps heated.
> 
> If one clicks on the extended clip (sidebar-right), you see the moment when Van Loan crosses the floor. at the 00:10-00:12 mark, his approach is rather more threatening.
> 
> Still - the "brawl" spin was a bit much, as none of the MPs who rose or crossed the floor after Van Loan appeared to be interested in anything other than moving people to their respective positions and getting on with business.


The funniest thing about this whole debacle is the Government and Van Loan won the decision from the speaker. Can you imagine how testy Van Loan might have been if the Conservatives lost the decision?

Then the next best part was the Conservatives trying to shift the blame onto the NDP. It's a classic.

Poor tired ol' HSSMC Government™, running out ideas, running out strategies and running out of time. Tic, tic, tic. 2015 looms ever closer.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The funniest thing about this whole debacle is the Government and Van Loan won the decision from the speaker. Can you imagine how testy Van Loan might have been if the Conservatives lost the decision?
> 
> Then the next best part was the Conservatives trying to shift the blame onto the NDP. It's a classic.
> 
> Poor tired ol' HSSMC Government™, running out ideas, running out strategies and running out of time. Tic, tic, tic. 2015 looms ever closer.


Sigh... Your post shows how little you appreciate how much the resources of the House of Commons cost...

Cullen was making a ridiculous Point of Order to further obstruct the passage of Bill C-45 based on the failure of his own MP's (Joe Comartin NDP) failure as Deputy Speaker to catch the error and rule it out of order at the time...

So he lobbed this Point of Order almost a full day later after the proceedings when the rules state that such a Point of Order should be made forthwith...

No wonder Van Loan was frustrated...

Even Bob Rae, the interim leader of the Liberals, stated that it was basically a pointless Point of Order...

And Nathan Cullen has the audacity to say that all that he wants is better decorum in the House... What a joke! When he has been doing the opposite, using the Thursday Question (which is meant to be purely procedural in nature) to add politically charged diatribes against the government.... Decorum? Ya right.


----------



## groovetube

Siiiigh.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Sigh... Your post shows how little you appreciate how much the resources of the House of Commons cost...
> 
> Cullen was making a ridiculous Point of Order to further obstruct the passage of Bill C-45 based on the failure of his own MP's (Joe Comartin NDP) failure as Deputy Speaker to catch the error and rule it out of order at the time...
> 
> So he lobbed this Point of Order almost a full day later after the proceedings when the rules state that such a Point of Order should be made forthwith...
> 
> No wonder Van Loan was frustrated...
> 
> Even Bob Rae, the interim leader of the Liberals, stated that it was basically a pointless Point of Order...
> 
> And Nathan Cullen has the audacity to say that all that he wants is better decorum in the House... What a joke! When he has been doing the opposite, using the Thursday Question (which is meant to be purely procedural in nature) to add politically charged diatribes against the government.... Decorum? Ya right.


Hope this post rubs off on people who have no idea how the house operates.


----------



## groovetube

well isn't this just precious.


----------



## groovetube

and while we're busy giving poli sci 100 lessons and pontificating on how suggesting this government may be in any way more on the side of the resource sector, have a look at this:
Stop the Nexen takeover | SumOfUs

We sure wouldn't want to face the real issues here now would we.


----------



## MacDoc

> Government approves Chinese buyout of Nexen
> A Nexen oil sands facility seen from a helicopter near Fort McMurray, Alta.
> Jeff McIntosh/THE CANADIAN PRESS FILE PHOTO
> By Les Whittington
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper has given the green light to a huge oilpatch acquisition by a Chinese state-owned corporation but is vowing to block attempts by government-controlled foreign enterprises to buy Canadian oilsands assets from now on.


so let's get this straight....
Cons horribly opposed to Canadians owning their own resources as the Norwegians and 90% of the rest of the planet does........

But he's happy to approve the sale of said resources to another state capitalism company....










and Hudak wants to sell off an effective Ontario Corporation ...the LCBO for "convenience" 

Does the right wing actually have a clue???? Do the people that vote for the likes of Ford and Hudak and Harper actually understand how destructive a path they are taking???
One only has to look at the idjits on the right wing in the US and mess the place is in for a cautionary tale.

Pulllllease let the Norwegians annex Canada and get some "for the people" people in place.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> so let's get this straight....
> Cons horribly opposed to Canadians owning their own resources as the Norwegians and 90% of the rest of the planet does........


Not opposed. Merely willing to sell them to those who will pay the highest prices for them. Even Norway has seen the light by selling off vast portions of its state-owned oil company. 

McDoc, if you actually paid some attention to Statoil and what it's doing this year, you would already know that Statoil just sold off its state-owned gas station chain... to privately owned Canadian convenience store company Alimentation Couche-Tard!

That must sting! Is your face red? Why would they sell off an asset that was making money for the people of Norway?

Statoil sells petrol stations for NKr8bn - FT.com



> The $2.8bn move by Couche-Tard with give the company one of the largest chains of petrol stations in Scandinavia and a foothold in eastern Europe. The company has been looking to expand beyond the US for several years now. The parties expect to complete the transaction during the second quarter of 2012.



Because some of this Nexen deal affects European holdings, it was also reviewed AND APPROVED by the European Commission (where such things are frowned upon I'm told).

As Justin Trudeau stated:;



> Why is the CNOOC-Nexen deal good for Canada? Because Chinese and other foreign investors will create middle-class Canadian jobs. Foreign investment raises productivity, and hence the living standards of Canadian families. More fundamentally, it is in Canada’s interest to broaden and deepen our relationship with the world’s second-largest economy.
> 
> Of course there should be conditions attached. All foreign investors must obey the letter and the spirit of Canadian labour, environment, corporate governance and immigration laws. In certain sectors, national security concerns will be real. However, in the CNOOC case, Chinese ownership of three per cent of oilsands leases hardly constitutes a national security issue.


Read more: Trudeau: Canada should approve the sale of Nexen

By all means sell the LCBO and let the government make their money from sales taxes. What kind of deal is it for Ontarians to pay twice the price as Americans for the same products so the Ontario government can collect the revenue. I'm also tired of having to travel to the U.S. to buy products that are simply not available in this province because the gods of the LCBO have never carried them or deemed it better to de-list them.


----------



## FeXL

You don't actually expect a reply from him, do you?  He was on a roll & there is no reason to let facts get in the way of a good, red-faced rant.

Typical MO...


----------



## groovetube

why would he respond to the master of circular time wasters? Very few do anymore.

Ottawa approves $15B Chinese takeover of Nexen | CTV News

Well it's a done deal. As someone put it before, Canadians are really just sleepwalking through this government's actions.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> why would he respond to the master of circular time wasters? Very few do anymore.
> 
> Ottawa approves $15B Chinese takeover of Nexen | CTV News
> 
> Well it's a done deal. As someone put it before, Canadians are really just sleepwalking through this government's actions.


No, they are paying attention, and more and more they like what they see. $15-18 Billion in foreign investment (subject to much stricter regulations than previous deals), more jobs in Canada, less dependancy on the US market, and increased access to the vast Chinese market.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> No, they are paying attention, and more and more they like what they see. $15-18 Billion in foreign investment (subject to much stricter regulations than previous deals), more jobs in Canada, less dependancy on the US market, and increased access to the vast Chinese market.


What kills me is that most of the people braying about this wish we'd stop using oil anyway.


----------



## MacDoc

good government eh??



> *Deeper and deeper, the Harperites dug themselves into the hole of their own rhetoric –* until Auditor-General Michael Ferguson’s devastating report last April unveiled the true costs to be way higher than the government’s mantra. Worse, the report said the Defence Department had told the government that costs had skyrocketed. Yet, the government, campaigning for re-election, kept that information from the public.
> 
> It was one thing for the Conservative chorus to denounce partisan critics, media skeptics and the Parliamentary Budget Office, but it could hardly denounce the Auditor-General.
> 
> Suddenly, the government spin machine confronted the need to reverse spin. Mr. MacKay was pushed out of the limelight, since he had uttered too many false predictions and had become so personally associated with the project. Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose was put in charge (nominally) of a new review of the project within the government that included outside auditing help. This audit reportedly has shown the cost of the project to have ballooned to more than $30-billion – this is bad news from a government that presents itself as a careful steward of the public purse.
> 
> The Harper spin machine has really got its hands full now. Having insisted that the F-35 was the only plane to replace the aging CF-18s, that stealth technology was indispensable, that the costs were what the government had insisted they would be (despite knowing the contrary), that a full review of all available options had already been concluded at the time Canada agreed to join the U.S.-led planning for the F-35, that all the hundreds of millions of dollars already sunk into the project were down payments well spent, the spin machine now must try to make everyone forget these assertions.


F-35 fiasco knocks Conservative spin off its axis - The Globe and Mail

not..........

The comments are priceless....what a bunch of ill-natured, poor judgement toads this Con gov has been.


----------



## groovetube

I see some are buying the spin on this nexen deal.

Well that's surprising! They would believe anything their government tells them to! :lmao:


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> What kills me is that most of the people braying about this wish we'd stop using oil anyway.


MacFury, I think the issue here is that the current government has shown it has little vision in the development of "policy"....... they seem to be making decisions on a spare of the moment basis without a firm and logically thought out set of guidelines....... that's what is getting people upset rather than the deal.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MacFury, I think the issue here is that the current government has shown it has little vision in the development of "policy"....... they seem to be making decisions on a spare of the moment basis without a firm and logically thought out set of guidelines....... that's what is getting people upset rather than the deal.


I don't believe that's the case at all. It's just that they don't want this deal in particular to go through.

There's been an ongoing review of such deals and how they are handled since 2010. To clarify reviews of such deals going forward, the government released its _Policy Statement and Revised Guidelines for Investments by State-Owned Enterprises_ regarding how investments by foreign state-owned enterprises will be reviewed under the _Investment Canada Act_ on Friday.


----------



## groovetube

rps: he just needs to see it a certain way. The larger issue doesn't seem important.

Besides the fact that most major news outlets are discussing that.


----------



## Macfury

Late to the party again. Maccy D? Already being discussed.

And what about Statoil's sorry record of selling "the people's gas stations" to private investors? Don't want to talk about that? Thought not!



MacDoc said:


> good government eh??
> 
> F-35 fiasco knocks Conservative spin off its axis - The Globe and Mail
> 
> not..........
> 
> The comments are priceless....what a bunch of ill-natured, poor judgement toads this Con gov has been.


----------



## BigDL

Heard Chris Alexander on CBC Radio One's "The House" and as a former diplomat Mr. Alexander answered questions in quite un-diplomatic manner.

The Harper Strong Stable Majority Government™ seems to be poor managers of acquisition and as well as poor managers of finances and poor managers of the truth. Seems the one goes hand in hand, hand and hand with the others.

I remember well Laurie Hawn screaming at all, during the last election campaign, the costs were fixed, we all did not understand the efficiencies of when you buy an aircraft make all difference. He and the Party he stood for in that election screamed this nonsense when information to the contrary was supplied by US Government watchdog.

Poor tired ol' HSSM Government™, have no new plans, no new policies and the wheels are falling off their little Blue wagon. Time is running out, 2015 looms, tic,tic, tic...


----------



## SINC

Vilifying Stephen Harper | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Vilifying Stephen Harper | Full Comment | National Post


I love this part:



> How wonderful it is that so many believe they are infinitely his superior — after all, they have the best tables at Twitter Café, and he’s only the prime minister.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, that did it for me as well.


----------



## groovetube

Paradis says it's now up to China to explain deal to Canadians | CTV News

What? China is expected to explain the deal to us? Are they for real?

I would think that with our tax dollars paying their salaries, and our having elected them to represent -us-, THEY owe us the explanation. This is truly the height of contempt for Canadians.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Paradis says it's now up to China to explain deal to Canadians | CTV News
> 
> What? China is expected to explain the deal to us? Are they for real?
> 
> I would think that with our tax dollars paying their salaries, and our having elected them to represent -us-, THEY owe us the explanation. This is truly the height of contempt for Canadians.


Of course if one has a problem with a government, elected by Canadians, to be responsible to all Canadians and should one decides to criticize a government for the lack of transparency and information, well sir, a person would be vilifying the leader of such a government...well at least in the minds and opinions of conservatives. tptptptp


----------



## groovetube

Yes indeed such individuals who vilify our leader should be shown the door!

Because let's face it, Harper is... is... The prime minister! And that should be good enough for you! We are after all, mere mortals. What with our pathetic twitter and all.


----------



## MacDoc

I wonder when the same clowns complaining about Harper dissing will politely ask their party to stop the disgusting attack ads and slimy tactics that are a feature of Con behaviour - election or not.

The Cons and their lappies made their bed - lie in it.


----------



## groovetube

Someone pointed out a con supporter who on twitter said some should assassinate David Suzuki! 

Same bunch who lectures the left on civility! It's incredible after all the names and attack ads and nonsense coming from those in our strong stable majority government that people could get so emotional over Canadians rightfully distrusting Harper and speaking out about it. Unbelievable.

Those Canadians with their, their twitter accounts!


----------



## BigDL

MacDoc said:


> I wonder when the same clowns complaining about Harper dissing will politely ask their party to stop the disgusting attack ads and slimy tactics that are a feature of Con behaviour - election or not.
> 
> The Cons and their lappies made their bed - lie in it.


Come! Come! Stifle free expression? Never!

The Conservatives and the so inclined *ARE ENTITLED* to freely express their facts.

Free to express ideas as facts, free to express opinions as facts, free to express half truths as facts and free to express out right lies as facts.

When all of the above "facts" are expressed often enough, *no proof required!* 

How many times do you have to hear something before you will accept it as the facts of the matter.


----------



## heavyall

MacDoc said:


> I wonder when the same clowns complaining about Harper dissing will politely ask their party to stop the disgusting attack ads and slimy tactics that are a feature of Con behaviour - election or not.


I'm still waiting for the Conservatives to actually put out an attack ad. So far, all they've done is politely and playfully remind people of their opposition's own words and policies. Contrast that with the fear-mongering "hidden agenda" and "guns in the streets" stuff the other parties have done against the Conservatives, and Harper comes off looking really good in comparison. He's far from perfect, but he's better than anyone else he's faced by several orders of magnitude.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> How many times do you have to hear something before you will accept it as the facts of the matter.


I've heard pro-union propaganda for years--hasn't affected me yet!


----------



## groovetube

sure it hasn't stopped the shameless shilling for corporations to kick employees in the teeth while cash hoarding!

If you really want to drive things home, just do this! Harper gallery leaves MPs speechless


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I've heard pro-union propaganda for years--hasn't affected me yet!


Really!!!! I didn't know you were a self made man with millions to spare, so any of the social safety net items you have benefited from in the past you have cheerfully refunded?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Really!!!! I didn't know you were a self made man with millions to spare, so any of the social safety net items you have benefited from in the past you have cheerfully refunded?


What does this have to do with believing information that is repeated endlessly until it is accepted as fact?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> I'm still waiting for the Conservatives to actually put out an attack ad. So far, all they've done is politely and playfully remind people of their opposition's own words and policies. Contrast that with the fear-mongering "hidden agenda" and "guns in the streets" stuff the other parties have done against the Conservatives, and Harper comes off looking really good in comparison. He's far from perfect, but he's better than anyone else he's faced by several orders of magnitude.


I guess you've been asleep during harpers last few elections. There was nothing polite about the attack ads on dion or iggy.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> What does this have to do with believing information that is repeated endlessly until it is accepted as fact?[/QUOTE
> 
> Oh the irony, Gramsci strikes again.
> 
> To answer your question, one starts with an idea and then develops it to fruition. Such as social benefits, which have been the hallmark of the labour movement over the years. If there were no "propaganda" as you contend, where do the ideas for social change come from............. let me guess ... capitalists........


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Macfury said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with believing information that is repeated endlessly until it is accepted as fact?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh the irony, Gramsci strikes again.
> 
> To answer your question, one starts with an idea and then develops it to fruition. Such as social benefits, which have been the hallmark of the labour movement over the years. *If there were no "propaganda" as you contend,* where do the ideas for social change come from............. let me guess ... capitalists........
Click to expand...

I don't think that MF is contending that there is no government propaganda at all. He is merely pointing out that there is propaganda on the left as well and it hasn't made him believe it is the truth... Just because something is said repeatedly *does not* mean one has to buy into it.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> I don't think that MF is contending that there is no government propaganda at all. He is merely pointing out that there is propaganda on the left as well and it hasn't made him believe it is the truth... Just because something is said repeatedly *does no*t mean one has to buy into it.


Oh, I get it, thanks scripture I think I must have gotten tied up in my own ideology here, sorry Macfury, I misunderstood. 

But, screature, you do bring up an interesting point, and one which I have studied for years, that is hegemony and how "truth" is constructed for the populace. In my view when something is mentioned repeatedly it sooner or later gains support and eventually there is some form of buy-in.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Oh, I get it, thanks scripture I think I must have gotten tied up in my own ideology here, sorry Macfury, I misunderstood.
> 
> But, screature, you do bring up an interesting point, and one which I have studied for years, that is* hegemony* and how "truth" is constructed for the populace.* In my view when something is mentioned repeatedly it sooner or later gains support and eventually there is some form of buy-in.*


Undoubtedly true in general. But the individual is still free to decide for themselves. However, I think that in this modern era of the internet we are as far away from any form of hegemony in the west as we have ever been.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Undoubtedly true in general. But the individual is still free to decide for themselves. However, I think that in this modern era of the internet we are as far away from any form of hegemony in the west as we have ever been.


Actually, I believe the internet makes us more prone to it.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> To answer your question, one starts with an idea and then develops it to fruition. Such as social benefits, which have been the hallmark of the labour movement over the years. If there were no "propaganda" as you contend, where do the ideas for social change come from............. let me guess ... capitalists........


I see. 

The ideas for "social change" benefit the unions primarily. However, I have never seen these as "social benefits." Only a fool would reject collecting services for which he he is coerced to pay, no matter how poor the value received. If I could opt out of these programs--both payment and receipt--I would.

Since I have rarely seen unions as positive influences, their propaganda has not worked on me.


----------



## Rps

MacFury, one small correction, if I may, social change does not benefit unions, it benefits people.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Actually, I believe the internet makes us more prone to it.


Social media yes, the internet no, as the the internet is far more than social media. But that is not the government...


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Social media yes, the internet no, as the the internet is far more than social media. But that is not the government...


Agreed, but consensual influence is more than the government, it relates to a culture of dominance, the kind that seldom is held by a public mandate.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MacFury, one small correction, if I may, social change does not benefit unions, it benefits people.


Unions are notorious for promoting social change that actually serves unions, primarily. However, I would say that much of the "social safety net" does not constitute a net benefit. It is the infantalization of citizens, and coercion to pay for the poor results of decisions made by others.


----------



## Rps

Long live the republic!!!


----------



## groovetube

Well as long as we continue to pander to corporations by using the fear factor of 'job creation' so that corps can pay less taxes, hoard more cash, pay workers less money, and continue with layoffs to improve stock performance throwing people in to more need, it'll will continue the cycle of more and more people needing this social safety net.

Oops little too much reality there.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> However, I would say that much of the "social safety net" does not constitute a net benefit. It is the infantalization of citizens, and coercion to pay for the poor results of decisions made by others.


Indeed; it is terribly unfair that you and other wealthy people be required to support the idiots who made such stupid decisions as being born with genetic predispositions to disease, or being born on a native reservation where education or gainful employment is limited. And how about those dummies who allow themselves to have accidents, or get old? Sheesh. If only people would wise up and choose to be born into wealthy families, they wouldn't need all these government hand-outs and we could lower taxes on the wealthy even more!


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Agreed, but consensual influence is more than the government, it relates to *a culture of dominance, the kind that seldom is held by a public mandate*.


If one participates freely, I'm not sure where your concern lies and why there should be a "public" mandate (which would then in fact simply be a tyranny of the majority and we are back to a hegemony)?

There will always be a "dominant" culture at any point in time. What matters is if one chooses to freely participate or is coerced or "brain washed" by an intentional propaganda program to participate.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> There will always be a "dominant" culture at any point in time. What matters is if one chooses to freely participate or is coerced or "brain washed" by an intentional propaganda program to participate.


Agreed, but the trick is knowing.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Indeed; it is terribly unfair that you and other wealthy people be required to support the idiots who made such stupid decisions as being born with genetic predispositions to disease, or being born on a native reservation where education or gainful employment is limited. And how about those dummies who allow themselves to have accidents, or get old? Sheesh. If only people would wise up and choose to be born into wealthy families, they wouldn't need all these government hand-outs and we could lower taxes on the wealthy even more!


I would willingly support those who suffer misfortune through no fault of their own,


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I would willingly support those who suffer misfortune through no fault of their own,


Well, that's good to know; now it seems the only disagreement we may have is in deciding what constitutes "no fault of their own." 

I don't see this as a black & white issue; rarely are one's circumstances entirely independent of one's choices, but equally rarely are they entirely dependent on one's choices. Reality is complex, and the idiosyncrasies of individual circumstances are usually going to make the root causes of most problems difficult to discern. So it would seem to me that from a policy perspective, we should not be trying to judge wether an individual citizen 'deserves' their misfortunes due to their bad choices, but rather wether society's interests are served by providing what aid we can.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Well, that's good to know; now it seems the only disagreement we may have is in deciding what constitutes "no fault of their own."
> 
> I don't see this as a black & white issue; rarely are one's circumstances entirely independent of one's choices, but equally rarely are they entirely dependent on one's choices. Reality is complex, and the idiosyncrasies of individual circumstances are usually going to make the root causes of most problems difficult to discern. So it would seem to me that from a policy perspective, we should not be trying to judge wether an individual citizen 'deserves' their misfortunes due to their bad choices, but rather wether society's interests are served by providing what aid we can.


From a policy perspective, it would be cheaper to declare a national minimum income and let the recipients sort it out--while eliminating the vast bureaucracy that manages implementation.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> From a policy perspective, it would be cheaper to declare a national minimum income and let the recipients sort it out--while eliminating the vast bureaucracy that manages implementation.


I'm in complete agreement  

But can you imagine the hew and cry from the Right if such a socialist wealth redistribution were proposed by any political party?!? "They want us to _pay_ people to do nothing!"

Where would the money to provide such a national minimum wage come from? I presume you would agree that it has to come from taxing corporate and/or private income?


----------



## MacDoc

I'm all for basic income and lose the overlaps

••••

and speaking of public weal - another in the Tyee articles on how poorly Canada manages its resources.



> Rolf Wiborg's Tough Love for Canada
> A top petro engineer for wealthy Norway says Canada is 'a fantastic country' that's 'totally mismanaged by design.' Fifth in a series.


The Tyee – Rolf Wiborg's Tough Love for Canada

Norway has exceptionally low unemployment and deep reserve wealth allowing programs that Canadians could only dream of.



> "Why are people like me here? I make a million Kroner a year [about $170,000 Canadian] but I used to receive five or six million the last few years working for Phillips. I work here because I'm working for my children and my grandchildren, for the sick and old, and Norwegians not yet born."


Where would the money come from......tax the corporations and manage the resources better.
Even Australia does a better job with 29% tax for resource companies - instead we are about half of the OECD average.

Harper should say *Open for plunder..*....


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Agreed, but *the trick is knowing.*


Agreed.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> I'm all for basic income and lose the overlaps
> 
> ••••
> 
> and speaking of public weal - another in the Tyee articles on how poorly Canada manages its resources.
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyee – Rolf Wiborg's Tough Love for Canada
> 
> *Norway* has exceptionally low unemployment and deep reserve wealth allowing programs that Canadians could only dream of.
> 
> 
> 
> Where would the money come from......tax the corporations and manage the resources better.
> Even Australia does a better job with 29% tax for resource companies - instead we are about half of the OECD average.
> 
> Harper should say *Open for plunder..*....


Norway, blah blah, blah... Then emigrate already. They have a fraction the population we do and a fraction of the land mass thus a fraction of the infrastructure needs plus their constitutional make up is not the same. In Canada natural resources are the property and jurisdiction of the provinces.

You seem to think that other countries frameworks are directly equivalent to ours. Here's something that seems to be news to you... They aren't.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I'm in complete agreement
> 
> But can you imagine the hew and cry from the Right if such a socialist wealth redistribution were proposed by any political party?!? "They want us to _pay_ people to do nothing!"
> 
> Where would the money to provide such a national minimum wage come from? I presume you would agree that it has to come from taxing corporate and/or private income?


It's not pretty to think about it, but ultimately it's a cheaper solution than the slapdash mix of overlapping programs at federal, provincial, county and municipal levels that we're now throwing at it. It could be done using less tax money than we currently raise.


----------



## groovetube

A whole lot of nothing save for sour grapes on the Norway/Australia post.

Completely ignored the corporate tax issue altogether. That passes for good discussion?

Apparently so!


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Norway, blah blah, blah... Then emigrate already. They have a fraction the population we do and a fraction of the land mass thus a fraction of the infrastructure needs plus their constitutional make up in not the same. In Canada natural resources are the property and jurisdiction of the provinces.
> 
> You seem to think that other countries frameworks are directly equivalent to ours. Here's something that seems to be news to you... They aren't.


Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with adjusting royalties, but it makes no sense to adjust them to create an oil price beyond the world market value. That's not a matter of political will--it's suicide.

In the meantime, Ontario is sucking Alberta's teat with transfer payments based on the value of...yes...oil production.


----------



## groovetube

Isn't it funny after how the 'west got in' and we have a resource puppet head for a prime minister, suddenly, other provinces like Ontario, have to suck at Alberta's teat.

Funny that. Oh but that's somebody else's fault. Decades and decades of various governments, con, ndp, many liberal ones, but somehow, with Harper at the helm, this happens.


----------



## MacDoc

Next up after the jet fiasco



> *Once again I’m dumbfounded that Stephen Harper’s university major was economics. His new policy on foreign ownership, unveiled with fanfare late last week, is as clear as the goo extracted from the dinosaur remains at Fort McMurray.*
> 
> Harper last Friday rebuked the majority Canadian public opposition to a proposed Chinese government takeover of Calgary oil producer Nexen Inc. with his approval of that $15.1-billion deal, and of a $5.2-billion Malaysian government state grab for Alberta oil and gas assets. In doing so, the PM unveiled a ballyhooed “get tough” stance on future foreign state designs on the Alberta tar sands.
> 
> This embarrassment of a policy (the more fawning typists in the financial press have labelled it the “Harper Doctrine”) is rent with loopholes, is incomprehensible, and lacks the clarity to be applied consistently. Harper has conceded as much in allowing that foreign government takeovers in the oilpatch will henceforth be blocked, other than those arising from “exceptional circumstances.”


Harper

Seems I was correct on the Keystone Kops analogy.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Seems I was correct on the Keystone Kops analogy.


Well, with _Toronto Star_ skew written a bright spark like David Olive to back you up...


----------



## groovetube

I love it when those who whine about other shooting the messenger are the first to pull the trigger when they dislike the facts.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ontario may write off $1.4B in unpaid taxes, AG says - Toronto - CBC News

Maybe they will lower the tax rates for citizens of ON as well? We shall see.

"Ontario could end up writing off at least $1.4 billion in unpaid taxes, much of which is owed by corporations, Auditor General Jim McCarter says."


----------



## Dr.G.

The Carney Man Can
(sing along with Sammy Davis Jr .....
CandyMan - Video Dailymotion)
By Avery Shenfeld

Who can take recession, cast off all the blue
Steer the yield curve lower get a miracle or two
The Carney Man, oh the Carney Man can
The Carney Man can ‘cause he’s been the world’s best Gov
and makes the street feel good

Who can push stability, with bankers far and nigh
Make new capital targets look as easy as a pie
The Carney Man, oh the Carney Man can
The Carney Man can ‘cause he’s led the FSB
with credibility

The Carney Man states
economic fates
With a voice that’s so delicious
As he talks about his CPI wishes
You can see that he’s ambitious

Who can a make a forecast, of rate hikes coming soon
Back away tomorrow but retain the same old tune
The Carney Man, oh the Carney Man can
The Carney Man can so we keep from too much debt
and make our credit scores good

Who can go to London, be the newborn King
Guide the City bankers make the UK market sing
The Carney Man, oh the Carney Man can
The Carney Man can if there’s anyone who can
with all the mess to fix

Who will one day come back, bruised after his five
Looking for a new roost, perhaps on Sussex Drive
The Carney Man, oh the Carney Man can
The Carney Man can ‘cause he’s Canadian through and through
and makes our hearts go oooooh.


----------



## screature

Scores suckered by radio stunt on Quebec language law for dogs

What is sad about this story is that given the current government in Quebec it isn't too far fetched for people to actually believe it could be true...



> It seems some people really believed that Quebec's language laws are going to the dogs — literally.
> 
> Several media websites and a number of readers were fooled by a spoof news report, detailed on the CBC Radio satire "This Is That," about the City of Montreal passing a bylaw that would require dogs to learn French and English commands...
> 
> The stunt was first broadcast Dec. 12. It featured an interview with an earnest — and fake — Montreal city councillor who said the city's canines needed to understand commands in both languages or dog parks would descend into chaos.
> 
> "You have to weigh it against the alternative, which is that we're going to turn each of the city's dog parks into a renewal of the Plains of Abraham every Saturday morning," faux politician Benoit LaDouce said in the interview...
> 
> Some saw the gullibility as evidence that Quebec's language laws are so extreme peeople will believe anything. Others saw it as evidence that those laws are so frequently demonized and misunderstood by people who have no idea what they're talking about.
> 
> In the real world, Quebec laws regulate the size of languages other than French on commercial signs; require that large workplaces communicate with employees in French; and set rules for who can attend public school in English.
> 
> The proponents of those laws see them as a way to ensure the survival of French in a North American sea of English. But many commentators suggested the CBC story wasn't all that far-fetched.
> 
> "Satire, yes, but it sadly rings true," Peter Christensen tweeted of the CBC spoof...
> 
> In the CBC interview, LaDouce told host Pat Kelly that the necessity for the bylaw became clear to him when he was jumped in a park by an anglo dog that tried to lick him.
> 
> Commands in French for the dog to go away were in vain, he lamented.
> 
> "The dog looked back at me — total incomprehension — I mean, our alienation from each other was absolute."...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Scores suckered by radio stunt on Quebec language law for dogs
> 
> What is sad about this story is that given the current government in Quebec it isn't too far fetched for people to actually believe it could be true...


The same program suckered me in when they did a skit on a cabinet meeting to rename Saskatchewan because it was too hard to pronounce and they wanted to attract more business. I fell for it because it seemed like something the right wingers would do. 

Kudos to the CBC for these.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The same program suckered me in when they did a skit on a cabinet meeting to rename Saskatchewan because it was too hard to pronounce and they wanted to attract more business. I fell for it because it seemed like something the right wingers would do.
> 
> Kudos to the CBC for these.


That is much more far fetched IMO... seeing as it would require a constitutional change and majority of the people of Saskatchewan to vote in favour of said change.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> That seems much more far fetched IMO...


Not really. You should listen to that clip. It had a lot of people fooled.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not really. You should listen to that clip. It had a lot of people fooled.


Sure a lot of people who don't know what actually would have to take place to bring about such a change. My guess is that would be the majority, but it doesn't mean for those that actually do know, it isn't very far fetched. 

Whereas language laws in Quebec are already in the "twilight zone" so virtually anything could be possible when the PQ are in power.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Sure a lot of people who don't know what actually would have to take place to bring about such a change. My guess is that would be the majority, but it doesn't mean for those that actually do know, it isn't very far fetched.
> 
> Whereas language laws in Quebec are already in the "twilight zone" so virtually anything could be possible when the PQ are in power.


If you listened to the clip it was framed as a debate in caucus. They wanted to explore alternatives and then go public. 
To me it seemed more realistic than bilingual dogs. But that's just me.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> If you listened to the clip it was framed as a debate in caucus. They wanted to explore alternatives and then go public.
> To me it seemed more realistic than bilingual dogs. But that's just me.


Could be you are right... care to provide a link?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Could be you are right... care to provide a link?


CBC is quite good at podcasting. I'm sure it's there under the programme name. Sorry on a handheld for a bit.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CBC is quite good at podcasting. I'm sure it's there under the programme name. Sorry on a handheld for a bit.


When you are ready... just provide a link... that is what we do around here.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> When you are ready... just provide a link... that is what we do around here.


But google or bing are your good buddies no? So much more immediate no?


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^^^^
So lazy, no?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> But *google* or *bing *are your good buddies no? So much more immediate no?


Google all the time... Bing? What's Bing? 

Yep... I do others research all the time for them here. We try to be neighbourly like that here... *But* since you made a statement/post of assertion I am just asking you to provide a link to back up your statement/post...

Just a little bit of friendly advice... If you want to last long around here you should be ready to back up your statements... just sayin'...


----------



## heavyall

Podcasts | This is That with Pat Kelly and Peter Oldring | CBC Radio

http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/podcasts/thisisthat_20120921_61791.mp3


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Podcasts | This is That with Pat Kelly and Peter Oldring | CBC Radio
> 
> http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/podcasts/thisisthat_20120921_61791.mp3



I listen to "This is That" frequently thus when I am listening to "This is That" I know what I am listening to... But thanks for the link in case I didn't know what "This is That" is...

But more specifically thanks for doing the work of skippy...

See... I listen to CBC radio and work on Parliament Hill and I know what "This is That" is about and so I would know that this is obviously false... not to mention the whole tone of the conversation... which made it obviously false.

However, with the Quebec/dog/language bit it was much more plausible because the Quebec government (especially under a PQ Government) is actually much more likely to carry out such a policy....


----------



## Macfury

I listened to the podcast, but the Saskatchewan gag didn't quite make the cut as believable--the interview subject doesn't play it quite straight enough.

I do recall that in pre-amalgamation Toronto, Scarborough explored the idea of changing its name so that people could no longer mock it with "Scarberia."


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Just a little bit of friendly advice... If you want to last long around here you should be ready to back up your statements... just sayin'...


Wow are you uptight. 

Glad someone posted the link. 

When I first heard the sask skit I had no idea it was comedic. To me it sounded like a true mouth breathing trogg kind of like Vic Toews. Anyway I learned about the show. Good comedy.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> When I first heard the sask skit I had no idea it was comedic. To me it sounded like a true mouth breathing trogg kind of like Vic Toews. Anyway I learned about the show. Good comedy.


You missed the point entirely then. It's not a political program-it's a spoof of CBC radio news programs.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> You missed the point entirely then. It's not a political program-it's a spoof of CBC radio news programs.


Funny that much of the show revolves around CDN politics. It's spoofing politics and news. It really is quite good to have fooled people. I hope they continue.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You missed the point entirely then. It's not a political program-it's a spoof of CBC radio news programs.


It's funny how some people seem to be proud of their gullibility and lack of willingness to provide a link to lend credibility to their statements.


----------



## screature

*The Carney affair with the Liberal Party: It will all end in tears*

The Carney affair with the Liberal Party: It will all end in tears

Excellent column... it seems the Libs don't have a clue...


----------



## Rps

screature, I'd be wondering why Carney would want to "step down" to be Liberal Leader????????????????


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> screature, I'd be wondering why Carney would want to "step down" to be Liberal Leader????????????????


Beats me.


----------



## screature

*NDP MP Pat Martin ‘signs off’ from Twitter after calling Tories ‘rat faced whores’*

NDP MP Pat Martin ‘signs off’ from Twitter after calling Tories ‘rat faced whores’

A real class act that Pat Martin is...


----------



## SINC

Makes me wonder what rock band will pick up that name in future.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Makes me wonder what rock band will pick up that name in future.


:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

From macdoc's post in the prison's thread that got macfury really upset:

Harper's legacy could be that of big spender | Money | Toronto Sun

Wow, form the toronto sun. But the thing is, this isn't news. Anyone honest would know Harper and crew are, Canada's biggest spenders. And deficit lovers. Just like the previous republicans were in the US. All there in black and white.

If you're honest anyway.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa defends Haiti funding review after Don Cherry calls $50-million in aid to beleaguered country ‘nuts’ | Canada | News | National Post



> “We nickel and dime our doctors, nurses and veterans plus a million other service,” he wrote. “Yet we can send almost 50 million to Haiti.”


Where was Cherry when Clement misappropriated 50 million for gazeboes in his riding?

Amazing how little memory conservatives seem to have on their own misdeeds.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> Where was Cherry when Clement misappropriated 50 million for gazeboes in his riding?


He wasn't busy then, trying to resurrect an almost dead NHL.

All the 'players' on the edge of this money-maker are stirring the pot, just hoping to attract some interest back to their product.

Phooey.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Ottawa defends Haiti funding review after Don Cherry calls $50-million in aid to beleaguered country ‘nuts’ | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> 
> 
> Where was Cherry when Clement misappropriated 50 million for gazeboes in his riding?
> 
> Amazing how little memory conservatives seem to have on their own misdeeds.


Comm'on nobody saw them do it, there's no paper trail, there's no way you can prove anything, or as I like to call it "The Bart Simpson Defence." 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24


----------



## MacDoc

Now if their federal counterparts will get their act together maybe they can toss the tail that currently wags the dog in Canada.
and such an odious "tale" it is....

Ontario Liberal leadership: Kathleen Wynne and Andrea Horwath leave door open to Liberal-NDP cooperation - thestar.com


----------



## groovetube

Pointing out the very serious misdeeds of the federal conservatives generally just gets either silence, or grumbling that somehow someone else would be worse.

Which is pretty much where I'd thought things would be, but honestly, even -I- didn't think Harper and co would be quite this bad.


----------



## MacDoc

I am fine so far with their approach to the aboriginal issues.


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> I am fine so far with their approach to the aboriginal issues.


As am I, as well I presume are most Canadians with some first hand experience with the issue.


----------



## groovetube

Some of my family members couldn't be any closer to that issue, and they will disagree with you pretty strongly. I have yet to see any strong support from anyone save for those who read the sun or the nation post for the way this government has handled things so far. The hypocrisy shown by this government (and previous before others get excited) is clear. If you're honest, and have some... knowledge of these issues. However, I'll concede, it's not over with yet.

But my comments, refer mainly to much of the unbelievable blundering and spending we've seen so far.


----------



## SINC

There are always those who know more and know better.


----------



## groovetube

Of course there is. There always is.


----------



## SINC

Trouble is, it's always the same guy here.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> There are always those who know more and know better.


Perhaps like CIDA Minister Julian Fantino, a chip off the old Bev Oda block? 

Fantino publishes partisan attacks against the NDP on the CIDA website, a definite no, no using government resources.

Storify'd: CIDA Minister Julian Fantino: Man of (Partisan) Letters No Longer - Inside Politics

Then after Mulcair blasts Fantino on National television "oh! it was all a mistake."

Things are starting to get warm for HSSMC Government™ to attack the NDP in such a manner. 2015 looms ever larger for HSSMCG™ poor tired old worn out Government.

Well at least the Conservatives are consistent throw a staffer under the bus "just a mix up silly us, hee-hee."

Mulcair blasts Fantino for 'breaching rules' with CIDA web posts - Politics - CBC News



CIDA Hon Julian Fantino said:


> NDP take their reckless economic sideshow to the developing world
> 
> I read NDP MP Helen Laverdière's piece in the Huffington Post with great interest. I find it ironic that the NDP, a party that wishes to impose a $21-billion carbon tax on Canadians and more than $50-billion in radical spending measures while we face global economic uncertainty, now wants to give advice to developing countries on their economic development.
> 
> Let me take this opportunity to enlighten the MP and the NDP about the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) and dispel their myths.
> 
> Our Conservative government is focused on delivering tangible results for those most in need around the world. As I stated in my speech to the Economic Club of Canada: This means using any and all legitimate tools, and all partners available to us to meet this critical objective, including the private sector. We do not subsidize private sector companies as Laverdière led your readers to believe. We do not subsidize NGOs for that matter. We are an outcomes-driven agency and we will work with all legitimate partners who can help free people from the ill effects of poverty.
> 
> CIDA collaborates with developing country governments, civil society, multilateral institutions and the private sector in all areas of development, such as basic health, education and food assistance. They are all necessary partners to achieving meaningful development and economic growth that raises people out of poverty. A stronger economy creates more opportunities, more jobs, and allows families to support themselves. We cannot do this without the private sector.
> 
> When we speak about the private sector, CIDA is equally speaking about large multinational companies that employ millions of people worldwide, and individual entrepreneurs operating in remote villages in the developing world.
> 
> Let me give you an example: Due to CIDA's work, Vu Thi Ha -- a terracotta pot factory owner in Vietnam -- was able to improve her competitiveness with knowledge gained at a business development course. She is not alone. Between 2007 and 2010, in Vietnam alone, CIDA helped 1,200 small- and medium-sized businesses -- 90 percent of them owned by women --increase their profits.
> 
> I am also proud to say that CIDA works with the extractive sector to ensure it is transparent, accountable, sustainable and maximizes local benefits. The fact is that constructive NGOs understand this direction. They are working with us towards these objectives and are achieving meaningful results. CIDA's collaboration with Plan Canada and IAMGOLD, for example, will train 10,000 youth in 13 communities of Burkina Faso so they can compete for higher paying jobs in their communities.
> 
> Development is not about dependency; it is about helping those in need get a leg up so they can prosper. This is a concept that the tax-and-spend NDP fundamentally do not understand. While the NDP would prefer to fund endless talk shops, I am committed to ensuring our development assistance is accountable, transparent and results-focused.
> 
> The fact is that CIDA is getting real results. Through Canada's generosity, one million girls and boys in Haiti are receiving hot, nutritious meals in school each day. 7.8 million children have been vaccinated against polio in Afghanistan. And six million people received critical food assistance in the Sahel region of West Africa where a famine was averted because we acted quickly and decisively. This is a small sample of results we are achieving every day in every corner of the globe.
> 
> The NDP should set aside their ideology and rhetoric and support CIDA, our partners and most importantly those people living in poverty around the world who aspire to become self-sufficient.


 Julian Fantino: Dear NDP: CIDA Does Not Need Your Economic Advice


----------



## SINC

Mulcair will successfully lead the NDP back to oblivion. Count on it.


----------



## Vandave

SINC said:


> Mulcair will successfully lead the NDP back to oblivion. Count on it.


Justin Trudeau will do it. The left can't help but be drawn to an idealist like him.


----------



## Macfury

Let them all beat each others' brains out on the way to succeed Harper! Grrrr. Trudeau, Mulcair and May!!! Harper will just roll over in the face of that tough pack.

Nice to see you posting, Vandave!


----------



## BigDL

So let me get this straight, the Conservatives haven't any policies or personalities to win an election on their own, the conservative require some one else to enable them, ...that's your point?  :lmao:

2015 looms larger...tic,tic,tic.


----------



## groovetube

the conservatives like to have sweet nothings whispered in their ears. You know, things like less spending, smaller government, balancing the books, making sure services are there to protect Canadians.

None of which this government has done LOL.


----------



## BigDL

Very true it's been the mantra since Ronnie Raygun, Maggie Thatch and lyin' Brian.

The only sound missing "trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledoooooooooowwwnn."

It seems to calm them. Oh and with the visions of sugar plumbs dancing in their heads. The sugar plumbs are wealth, prosperity and affluence and lastly only for the worthy of course.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> There are always those who know more and know better.





SINC said:


> Mulcair will successfully lead the NDP back to oblivion. Count on it.





SINC said:


> Trouble is, it's always the same guy here.


I would say it's easily more than one. In fact, I'd say it fits the description of most here.

Sorry to single you out SINC, but my morning irony alarm was going off right beside my ear.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Trouble is, it's always the same guy here.


I guess that would be you. Since it always you, who starts this crap isn't it.




mrjimmy said:


> I would say it's easily more than one. In fact, I'd say it fits the description of most here.
> 
> Sorry to single you out SINC, but my morning irony alarm was going off right beside my ear.


SInc has for some time now been on a campaign to shout from the rooftops that I am the big troublemaker here. But look what happened when I engaged his ' muh daddi is bigger'n yer daddi'. As if anyone could prove they know more on the internet.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Very true it's been the mantra since Ronnie Raygun, Maggie Thatch and lyin' Brian.
> 
> The only sound missing "trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledooooooooooowwwwnn, trickledoooooooooowwwnn."
> 
> It seems to calm them. Oh and with the visions of sugar plumbs dancing in their heads. The sugar plumbs are wealth, prosperity and affluence and lastly only for the worthy of course.


Man, I wish I could vote for Ronald Reagan as PM!


----------



## groovetube

of course you do. And his result was fantastic too!


----------



## Rps

Vandave said:


> Justin Trudeau will do it. The left can't help but be drawn to an idealist like him.


I'm not so sure that Trudeau isn't a flash in the pan. I wouldn't anoint him just yet. I think the Liberals, like all parties ( including the Cons ) have a pretty bare cupboard. The last PM that actually had a strong line was Trudeau the elder..... like them or not, he had a cabinet that was highly visual and rich with ideas ( even though many would have disagreed with many of them ) but a number of PMs came from that cohort......I don't see that with the current rash of members. As for pounding the NDP back into the dark ages, we will see. Ontario might be looking at an election within the next 6 months.... if the NDP can win Ontario it would certainly setup a powerful organization for the National NDP to draw on....but history has left a bitter taste in many mouths here with a Provincial NDP government.....


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I'm not so sure that Trudeau isn't a flash in the pan. I wouldn't anoint him just yet. I think the Liberals, like all parties ( including the Cons ) have a pretty bare cupboard. The last PM that actually had a strong line was Trudeau the elder..... like them or not, he had a cabinet that was highly visual and rich with ideas ( even though many would have disagreed with many of them ) but a number of PMs came from that cohort......I don't see that with the current rash of members. As for pounding the NDP back into the dark ages, we will see. Ontario might be looking at an election within the next 6 months.... if the NDP can win Ontario it would certainly setup a powerful organization for the National NDP to draw on....but history has left a bitter taste in many mouths here with a Provincial NDP government.....


The Ontario Liberals look bent on anointing one of two dishwater dull candidates, while Horvath's playing footsie with the teacher's union is earning her no additional support.

Hudak won't even need to try with that crew in place.


----------



## screature

Yet once again another report contending that Dutch Disease in Canada is much ado about nothing (or at least very little)

Dutch Disease not a major factor in Canada's manufacturing woes, report argues



> The belief that the commodities boom of the past decade caused the decline in Canada's manufacturing sector is being challenged in a new report that also takes a swipe at the notion of the loonie as a petro-dollar.
> 
> The report, issued by the Macdonald-Laurier Institute and written by economist Philip Cross, argues that manufacturers' troubles stem more from structural economic changes than a higher Canadian dollar.
> 
> And it suggests that, in some ways, the commodities boom and its effect on the dollar actually helped the factory sector adapt.
> 
> For evidence, Cross notes that manufacturing output has grown the third fastest among 18 major industry groups since the 2008-09 recession, even outstripping growth in mining, oil and gas....


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> The Ontario Liberals look bent on anointing one of two dishwater dull candidates, while Horvath's playing footsie with the teacher's union is earning her no additional support.
> 
> Hudak won't even need to try with that crew in place.


Not sure I agree. For one thing he can't seem to complete a thought. Also, his leanings on policy might not resonate with the populace..... I think he is done as leader when he doesn't win this time.


----------



## groovetube

Oh you mean like the last time when hudak was nearly a shoo in with mcguintys tired government?


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Yet once again another report contending that Dutch Disease in Canada is much ado about nothing (or at least very little)
> 
> Dutch Disease not a major factor in Canada's manufacturing woes, report argues


Screature I love these articles...... I've always been a supporter of ensuring your currency is the strongest it should be. Dutch Disease, to me, is like the Fiscal Cliff ... looks good on paper but what is it really.... a scare tactic to secure votes and a method to hid incompetencies.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Yet once again another report contending that Dutch Disease in Canada is much ado about nothing (or at least very little)
> 
> Dutch Disease not a major factor in Canada's manufacturing woes, report argues


A manufacturing sector that depends on a continually weak or weakening dollar is doomed to create inflation. 

Overall the stronger dollar is good for Canada, however I suspect near term it will be very closely tied to the US Dollar. Reason being that if there is any major disparity; The power brokers whom are pushing for a single North American currency will find considerably less support, here or stateside depending on who is on top.

I hope the Canadian manufacturing sector does regain strength, though being stronger than other even weaker economies is not as encouraging as it could be.


----------



## MacDoc

Oh ? tell that to China. 

••••

*Honest* transparent government you say?...not. 

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty tried to influence CRTC decision on radio licence - thestar.com

let's hear the outrage from the right wingdings..

_same cats - different stripes...Tommy Douglas_


----------



## iMouse

But, but, he was writing the letter as a local MP, *not* as a member of Cabinet.


----------



## heavyall

MacDoc said:


> Oh ? tell that to China.
> 
> ••••
> 
> *Honest* transparent government you say?...not.
> 
> Finance Minister Jim Flaherty tried to influence CRTC decision on radio licence - thestar.com
> 
> let's hear the outrage from the right wingdings..
> 
> _same cats - different stripes...Tommy Douglas_


The MOST open and transparent government we've ever had actually.

Flaherty wrote a LETTER. Public record. He didn't try to do some back room deal with no paperwork.

The rules say ministers shouldn't intervene. He didn't. He simply wrote a letter of recommendation. Again, no Liberal-style behind closed doors 'arrangement'.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The MOST open and transparent government we've ever had actually.
> 
> Flaherty wrote a LETTER. Public record. He didn't try to do some back room deal with no paperwork.
> 
> The rules say ministers shouldn't intervene. He didn't. He simply wrote a letter of recommendation. Again, no Liberal-style behind closed doors 'arrangement'.


As a Minister, I suppose he can't promote _any_ aspect of his riding's economy, for fear of accidental influence.

Another tempest in a teapot.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> As a Minister, I suppose he can't promote _any_ aspect of his riding's economy, for fear of accidental influence.
> 
> Another tempest in a teapot.


That's just it. Do they really want any riding whose MP becomes a minister (or Prime Minister) to be left with no representative? If the left wants to cry foul over a minister advocating for his riding as an MP, perhaps we should just hire who we want to for the major portfolios, even if they lost an election or never ran for office. Can you imagine their faux outrage then?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> The MOST open and transparent government we've ever had actually.
> 
> Flaherty wrote a LETTER. Public record. He didn't try to do some back room deal with no paperwork.
> 
> The rules say ministers shouldn't intervene. He didn't. He simply wrote a letter of recommendation. Again, no Liberal-style behind closed doors 'arrangement'.


Nonsense, it was clear he -was- trying to intervene. The rules are clear. As an MP, he can write such a letter. But not as a cabinet minister.

The problem is, this government is getting used to thumbing it's nose at the rules and laws and practically getting away with it.

Thumbing their nose at us all.


----------



## heavyall

So Whitby gets no representation from the guy they voted for. Really? That sounds more like trolling than a real argument.


----------



## iMouse

heavyall said:


> So Whitby gets no representation from the guy they voted for. Really? That sounds more like trolling than a real argument.


It's all in how you hold your mouth I guess, but yep, I agree.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Maybe a different letterhead would satisfy the naysayers?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> So Whitby gets no representation from the guy they voted for. Really? That sounds more like trolling than a real argument.


Those are the rules. I didn't make them up.

And didn't the conservatives make these rules? I predict Flaherty gets away with it altogether.

Like Clement and his misappropriation of 50 million, the breaking of election laws (oh I know it was soooooo unfair), etc., etc., etc.

Why hide it if you know full well you can get away with it, and no one really cares?


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> That's just it. Do they really want any riding whose MP becomes a minister (or Prime Minister) to be left with no representative? If the left wants to cry foul over a minister advocating for his riding as an MP, perhaps we should just hire who we want to for the major portfolios, even if they lost an election or never ran for office. Can you imagine their faux outrage then?


Exactly. 

He wrote a letter of support. Full stop. Something every MP does for their constituents. No influence peddling, no lobbying, i.e. face to face meetings. He wrote a less than 250 word letter of support, again something EVERY MP does... it is their job...

Except in the eyes of the rabid opposition who seem to think that once you become a Minster you should stop supporting your constituents...

Once again much ado about nothing... the licence wasn't even granted for Christ's sake... that just goes to show and prove the* independence * of the CRTC.

What a nothing story this is... slow news day except for those who want to make mountains out of mole hills to support their own pile of dung.


----------



## groovetube

MPs. Not cabinet ministers.

That's the issue being looked at.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> MPs. Not cabinet ministers.
> 
> That's the issue being looked at.


You still haven't addressed the 'taxation, without representation' issue Tim.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> You still haven't addressed the 'taxation, without representation' issue Tim.


I understand that mouse, however, I din't make these accountability rules.

I've always thought this whole accountability charade by Harper and co was a puppet show for the suckers that voted for him.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> I've always thought this whole accountability charade by Harper and co was a puppet show for the suckers that voted for him.


Well, yah, but that's only for the "other guys".


----------



## SINC

iMouse said:


> Well, yah, but that's only for the "other guys".


You mean the other real suckers who didn't vote for him?


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Well, yah, but that's only for the "other guys".


and there's game. Back and forth. But you've heard me say this for years.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What a nothing story this is... slow news day except for those who want to make mountains out of mole hills to support their own pile of dung.


PM Harper went to India and advocated for business on behalf of several Canadian companies and brought home billions of dollars in contracts. I can't wait until he gets slammed for influence peddling to foreign governments.


----------



## groovetube

That was incredibly lame, even for you. I think though you clearly understand the difference so I'll let it pass. I know why you posted that.


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> You still haven't addressed the 'taxation, without representation' issue Tim.


Well how how willfully dumb do you have to be not to understand a Cabinet Minister is *Super Representation.*

Clement syphoning millions of dollars away from the boarder to gazebos in the middle of the hinterland. The fellow with his hand on how money is spent has enormous influence and representation.

The supporters have consumed the flavour aid and abuse of power is better for all. Hiding is transparency. Our Glorious Leader can do no wrong, his followers are truly blessed all hail the HSSMCG™.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Well how how willfully dumb do you have to be not to understand a Cabinet Minister is *Super Representation.*
> 
> Clement syphoning millions of dollars away from the boarder to gazebos in the middle of the hinterland. The fellow with his hand on how money is spent has enormous influence and representation.
> 
> The supporters have consumed the flavour aid and abuse of power is better for all. Hiding is transparency. Our Glorious Leader can do no wrong, his followers are truly blessed all hail the HSSMCG™.


The strong supporters don't want to hear this, because your post sounds too incredible to be true, It actually -is-. This government has reached a point that although the media in a very lame way criticizes them for their misdeeds, their supporters will justify just about anything as 'much ado about nothing', and they generally get away with it.

Now, can you imagine the screaming if the liberals were to misrepresent the costs of something by like 20 billion dollars? That's a lotta billions! (come one, shriek about the billion in the firearm registry, I dare ya... or the millions in adscam...) I don't think the liberals in their wildest dreams have blundered -that- badly.

And it's items like these that will enrage the most staunch Harper supporter. Because, it's true. No matter how much they try to cover it up and chant, 'nothing to see here, move along...'


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The supporters have consumed the flavour aid and abuse of power is better for all. Hiding is transparency. Our Glorious Leader can do no wrong, his followers are truly blessed all hail the HSSMCG™.


Yes, this "radio sponsorship scandal" is sure to bring the Harper government to its knees.

Imagine the shock registered on the faces of the CRTC members when they read the letter of support, their eyes suddenly drawn to the title, "Minister for Greater Toronto." 

"The same," they all gasp. "It is the same Flaherty!!!"


----------



## groovetube

^^ Notice the convenient omission of signing as 'finance minister'.

See how they do it? Just wave your hands furiously and pretend it didn't happen 

Also I doubt anyone thought this would bring the Harper government to it's knees, there are far far more serious blunders potentially involving tens of billions that make this look like a small j-walking infraction.


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> Well how how *wilfully* dumb do you have to be not to understand a Cabinet Minister is Super Representation.


About the same as being deliberately obtuse, in ignoring the watering-down of his representation for his riding, caused by the millstone of being a government minister.

"Oh goody, our MP is in the Cabinet." :clap:

But then something like this happens, and they see the drawback in this "honour", for them.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> About the same as being deliberately obtuse, in ignoring the watering-down of his representation for his riding, caused by the millstone of being a government minister.
> 
> "Oh goody, our MP is in the Cabinet." :clap:
> 
> But then something like this happens, and they see the drawback in this "honour", for them.


Yes, the fools in his riding should never have voted for Flaherty to become Minister of Finance! They are only getting the representation they deserve after making such a gaffe!! 

Now that the world of "Easy Listening" is forever tainted, they have suffered yet another intolerable setback.


----------



## Rps

I think the system is slightly flawed here. A member will not get voted in if he or she doesn't support their constituents. It's just part of the job. The fact that Flaherty is the FM does put a little more "push" on that letter, but you can't say he shouldn't have tried for his constituent. So, maybe what we need is a system where, once you reach a certain status in the legislature, say a full minister, you are relinquished of your riding duties....but how do we do this. What some of you are saying is that once one becomes a Minister the riding should not have any representation...... remember Flaherty didn't have any direct influence ( other than his stature ) with the CRTC...a true fact since the bidder in his riding lost the license. I've often thought that FULL MINISTERS should be chosen by the PM and not elected...therefore the Ministers should not be able to vote in session.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> About the same as being deliberately obtuse, in ignoring the watering-down of his representation for his riding, caused by the millstone of being a government minister.
> 
> "Oh goody, our MP is in the Cabinet." :clap:
> 
> But then something like this happens, and they see the drawback in this "honour", for them.


It's quite the conundrum here now isn't it. An MP that should be able to represent his constituents, and a badly thought out accountability act.

And let's remember the circumstances around this. He attempted to intervene on a radio station's behalf to the CRTC, who is supposed to operate at arm's length.

Don't listen to the usuals here that continually twist and spin things.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> I think the system is slightly flawed here. A member will not get voted in if he or she doesn't support their constituents. It's just part of the job. The fact that Flaherty is the FM does put a little more "push" on that letter, but you can't say he shouldn't have tried for his constituent. So, maybe what we need is a system where, once you reach a certain status in the legislature, say a full minister, you are relinquished of your riding duties....but how do we do this. What some of you are saying is that once one becomes a Minister the riding should not have any representation...... remember Flaherty didn't have any direct influence ( other than his stature ) with the CRTC...a true fact since the bidder in his riding lost the license. I've often thought that FULL MINISTERS should be chosen by the PM and not elected...therefore the Ministers should not be able to vote in session.


I think the problem here was it was the CRTC. I don't know how this will play out, but that's the big reason this is being questioned.

It is NOT.... a question of simply representing a constituent. That's my understanding of this.

Here is a snip that is relevant here, something the suspects here have attempted (rather badly I might add) to gloss over and hide.



> *The CRTC, which administers broadcasting and telecommunications, is among the federal agencies known as quasi-judicial tribunals — courtlike bodies that make decisions at arm’s length from the government*.
> 
> Federal rules on ministerial responsibility, including interaction with such administrative bodies, are set out in Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Ministers of State. The document, last updated by Stephen Harper’s government in December 2010, is posted on the prime minister’s website.
> 
> *The rules say decisions made by administrative tribunals often concern individual rights or interests, are technical in nature or are “considered sensitive and vulnerable to political interference (such as broadcasting).”
> 
> “Ministers must not intervene, or appear to intervene, with tribunals on any matter requiring a decision in their quasi-judicial capacity, except as permitted by statute.”*
> 
> The guide adds that in all instances, even where the minister or cabinet has authority to send back or overturn decisions once made, as is the case with the CRTC, “*it is inappropriate to attempt to influence the outcome of a specific decision of a quasi-judicial nature.*”


bold mine


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I think the system is slightly flawed here. A member will not get voted in if he or she doesn't support their constituents. It's just part of the job. The fact that Flaherty is the FM does put a little more "push" on that letter, but you can't say he shouldn't have tried for his constituent. So, maybe what we need is a system where, once you reach a certain status in the legislature, say a full minister, you are relinquished of your riding duties....but how do we do this. What some of you are saying is that once one becomes a Minister the riding should not have any representation...... remember Flaherty didn't have any direct influence ( other than his stature ) with the CRTC...a true fact since the bidder in his riding lost the license. I've often thought that FULL MINISTERS should be chosen by the PM and not elected...therefore the Ministers should not be able to vote in session.


Agreed that this needs to be straightened out. The simplistic views expressed by others here don't take the complexity of the situation into account.


----------



## groovetube

complexity? Really? I would suggest you actually read the article for the details. And then you'll understand why, this is being talked about.


----------



## groovetube

Ethics commissioner says Flaherty broke rules with radio licence letter | CTV News

oh oh.

Perhaps our friend furious can head up and school the federal ethics commissioner on the er, 'complexities'. :lmao:


----------



## heavyall

The ethics commissioner is full of crap on this one. Not only is there nothing wrong with what Flaherty did, there'd be something wrong if didn't do it.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> The ethics commissioner is full of crap on this one. Not only is there nothing wrong with what Flaherty did, there'd be something wrong if didn't do it.


This.


----------



## screature

Update:

Ethics commissioner finds Flaherty's letter to CRTC 'improper'

What a load of crap this is, if the letter had gone out on his M.P. letterhead as it was supposed to everything would have been hunky dory, but because it went out on Ministerial letter head it was a no-no....

How frigging stupid and out of touch would the Secretary General of the CRTC have to be not to know that MP Jim Flaherty is not one and the same as Minister Jim Flaherty. 

At any rate the whole situation is over now but I agree with Rps that this rule has to looked at and sorted out, if nothing else just to meet with common sense.




> ...The commissioner's office has confirmed that an order of compliance was issued yesterday afternoon.
> 
> According to a spokesperson for Dawson, she found that it was "improper" for Flaherty to have written the letter, and directs him to "refrain from writing such letters in future without seeking approval from her office."
> 
> *"As the facts are clear and an order has been made, the Commissioner will not be launching an investigation," the note concludes. *...
> 
> UPDATE: Later this morning, Flaherty's office issued a statement of its own, in which the minister expands on his explanation while still acknowledging the "regrettable" error:
> 
> *"The letter to the Secretary General of the CRTC on behalf of a constituent was fully intended to be written and sent in my capacity as Member of Parliament for Whitby-Oshawa. It was drafted in my community office and printed on my M.P. letterhead, and in fact, I insisted the M.P. reference be added to the text to emphasize the point. However, due to an oversight my Ministerial title was used in the signature block. This is regrettable and I can assure the Ethics Commissioner that this will not happen again."*


----------



## groovetube

That's fine, and all I've heard from the others is, he should be able to do that. Why, because they just say so? Because he's a conservative and they like conservatives?

I don't agree. I believe the rule is there for a reason, that cabinet ministers are not to influence these arms length tribunals. This has nothing to do with representing his constituents in general, as others have tried (and failed) to make this about.

He broke the rule, and I'm not buying his excuse of 'oopsie', anymore than you conservative supporters would have bought it if he were a liberal. And nor should you.

If the government and Canadians wish to look at this rule, then there is a process for doing so. I believe they already updated these rules not too long ago. Why didn't they do so then?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What a load of crap this is, if the letter had gone out on his M.P. letterhead as it was supposed to everything would have been hunky dory, but because it went out on Ministerial letter head it was a no-no....


Good on Flaherty for taking the brunt of the unwarranted criticism instead of fingering a staffer. 

The rapid and perfunctory way this was dealt with by Ethics Commissioner, instead of launching an investigation, indicates that this complaint was a waste of time.


----------



## eMacMan

Well the final FATCA regs have been announced. There will now be huge pressure on the Finance Minister to sign an IGA (Inter-Governmental Abberation) with the US which will allow Canadian banks to do an end around Canadian privacy laws and give information on Canadian's bank accounts to the IRS.

In short FATCA is an attempt by the US to have the IRS apply US regulations to financial institutions around the world.

The club the IRS is holding is massive. Co-operate or have 30% of all US fund transfers to Canada withheld.

The final FATCA is pretty much the same as the original The F(u)BAR (TDFn90) threshold is still $10,000. This number was chosen back in the seventies when a $10,000 account could cost the IRS as much as $150 in lost revenue. $150 back then would be $1500 in current terms. With much lower interest rates and somewhat lower US tax rates that $10,000 threshold should have been raised to at least $1,000,000 but was not.

The IRS has promised it will not go after RSPs, REPs etc. However the way FATCA is set up the IRS can change its mind without notice.

There is still no assurance the IRS will not go after Canadian Citizens either because they happen to be married to Americans, once held a Green card (which is probably no longer valid), or simply stayed one day too many south of the border.

*Most importantly I believe the "Agreement" still contains language that effectively says the agreement supersedes all previous treaties. Note: That is ALL treaties not just tax treaties.*

The cost to each Canadian Financial Institution to attempt to comply has been pegged at about $100,000,000. This includes not just banks but insurance companies and brokerage firms as well. Costs that will be passed along to all customers.

Canada should clearly SAY NO to FATCA. There is zero benefit to Canada or Canadians, and a very great need for our government to firmly assert its sovereignty. Unless you are suicidal do not hold your breath waiting for the Harper Corp. to do the right thing.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> The club the IRS is holding is massive. Co-operate or have 30% of all US fund transfers to Canada withheld.


Yes, this is the amount withheld if U.S. citizens living abroad don't file the tax papers required of them under U.S. law. As a Canadian citizen, I have had to file papers with U.S. clients years ago, stating that I was not a U.S. citizen and that any payments to me by clients would not be subject to 30% withholding.

Again, while I think tax rates are confiscatory, why is collecting these amounts from U.S. citizens under U.S. law unfair?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Good on Flaherty for taking the brunt of the unwarranted criticism instead of fingering a staffer.
> 
> The rapid and perfunctory way this was dealt with by Ethics Commissioner, instead of launching an investigation, indicates that this complaint was a waste of time.


Investigate what? It's pretty clear that he broke the rules, rules the Harper government updated! It doesn't matter whether you and your supporter friends like the rule or not!

Good on the ethics commissioner for not wasting more money on an expensive lengthy investigation into what was very clear.

Perhaps Harper and co can backtrack a little on their big accountability charade and allow cabinet ministers to influence tribunals and their decisions.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Yes, this is the amount withheld if U.S. citizens living abroad don't file the tax papers required of them under U.S. law. As a Canadian citizen, I have had to file papers with U.S. clients years ago, stating that I was not a U.S. citizen and that any payments to me by clients would not be subject to 30% withholding.
> 
> Again, while I think tax rates are confiscatory, why is collecting these amounts from U.S. citizens under U.S. law unfair?


This would be on any transfer of US funds to Canada not just on US citizens. eg Snowbirds maintaining a bank account in the US that earns zero interest would lose 30% if they attempted to transfer some of it back to Canada even though the money was earned in Canada and transferred south to begin with. Someone ordering mail order from a Canadian company would see 30% of that with held and so on and so on.

Most importantly is that the IRS can call anyone it likes a US citizen for tax purposes and demand complete financial records. Their own privacy statement makes it clear this information would be readily available throughout the Treasury Department and that is before the hackers get into those Treasury Department databases.


----------



## iMouse

The U.S. is quickly becoming xenophobic by default.

Who really wants to go there anymore? Not me.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> This would be on any transfer of US funds to Canada not just on US citizens. eg Snowbirds maintaining a bank account in the US that earns zero interest would lose 30% if they attempted to transfer some of it back to Canada even though the money was earned in Canada and transferred south to begin with. Someone ordering mail order from a Canadian company would see 30% of that with held and so on and so on.
> 
> Most importantly is that the IRS can call anyone it likes a US citizen for tax purposes and demand complete financial records. Their own privacy statement makes it clear this information would be readily available throughout the Treasury Department and that is before the hackers get into those Treasury Department databases.


I looked at FACTA and it didn't say that/ Show me the part I missed.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I looked at FACTA and it didn't say that/ Show me the part I missed.


That's the IRS stick should Canada refuse to allow banks and other financial institutions to turn over customers private information to the IRS. An end around Canadian privacy laws.

The IGA I expect the Harper gang to sign without a whimper would require the banks to give the info to CRA who would turn it over to the IRS on demand. Customers would be required to voluntarily give banks permission to do so.

In Switzerland banks have forced customers to "voluntarily" agree to this state of affairs by closing their accounts or refusing them mortgages should they refuse. It should be noted that most Swiss banks now refuse to deal with any customers who have any American ties.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> That's the IRS stick should Canada refuse to allow banks and other financial institutions to turn over customers private information to the IRS. An end around Canadian privacy laws.
> 
> The IGA I expect the Harper gang to sign without a whimper would require the banks to give the info to CRA who would turn it over to the IRS on demand. Customers would be required to voluntarily give banks permission to do so.
> 
> In Switzerland banks have forced customers to "voluntarily" agree to this state of affairs by closing their accounts or refusing them mortgages should they refuse. It should be noted that most Swiss banks now refuse to deal with any customers who have any American ties.


Where is the text of the agreement?


----------



## groovetube

Tories seek to overhaul Ontario's welfare system | CTV Toronto News

I see here in Ontario, our conservative leader is really going after the real issues facing Ontario. Like the last conservative.

You go girl! Get them welfare people buyin booze and cigarettes! That'll fix Ontario!


----------



## MacDoc

hehe caught this comment in the National Pest



> RK55 DSB111 • 28 minutes ago
> 
> I knew it had to be Harper's fault. Everything is Harper's fault. What, oh what are we going to do without Harper to blame for everything? I just know he's to blame for declining honey bee populations?


how the worm has turned....

••••

It was however a good article about a very unfair situation

Ahmed Al-Khabaz expelled from Dawson College after finding security flaw | Canada | News | National Post


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> hehe caught this comment in the National Pest
> 
> 
> how the worm has turned....
> 
> ••••
> 
> It was however a good article about a very unfair situation
> 
> Ahmed Al-Khabaz expelled from Dawson College after finding security flaw | Canada | News | National Post


I don't understand your post. What worm has turned, and what does Al-Khabaz's expulsion have to do with Canadian Politics?


----------



## groovetube

As Canada warms up, extreme weather is the new normal | CTV News

Oh my. Environment Canada is pointing out that the last 16 years in Canada have been the warmest on record? Woooo someone is going to get into trouble!

This is the sort of blasphemy the Harper government dislikes.


----------



## iMouse

"Off with their heads", or the current version, "Cut their funding".


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> As Canada warms up, extreme weather is the new normal | CTV News
> 
> Oh my. Environment Canada is pointing out that the last 16 years in Canada have been the warmest on record? Woooo someone is going to get into trouble!
> 
> This is the sort of blasphemy the Harper government dislikes.


Yep I saw a temp map that went with one of the previous similar announcements a couple of years ago. Was quite interesting as all of Alberta and most of eastern BC had just gone through one of the coldest years on record, yet NOAA had somehow managed to manipulate that into slightly warmer than average temps for the year.

Wonder if this thread can get any further off topic.....


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Yep I saw a temp map that went with one of the previous similar announcements a couple of years ago. Was quite interesting as all of Alberta and most of eastern BC had just gone through one of the coldest years on record, yet NOAA had somehow managed to manipulate that into slightly warmer than average temps for the year.
> 
> Wonder if this thread can get any further off topic.....


I posted it not as a debate on the climate change theory, but that environment canada blasphemed so.

As far as the whole alberta has had a colder than usual winter, do you really think alberta is so big and powerful as to have one cold winter skewing 16 years of average temperatures?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Yep I saw a temp map that went with one of the previous similar announcements a couple of years ago. Was quite interesting as all of Alberta and most of eastern BC had just gone through one of the coldest years on record, yet NOAA had somehow managed to manipulate that into slightly warmer than average temps for the year.
> 
> Wonder if this thread can get any further off topic.....


Don't forget the recent elimination of most of the northern temperature stations.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I posted it not as a debate on the climate change theory, but that environment canada blasphemed so.
> 
> As far as the whole alberta has had a colder than usual winter, do you really think alberta is so big and powerful as to have one cold winter skewing 16 years of average temperatures?


Sounds more like business as usual for EC. Hopefully Canadian city managers ignored this and stockpiled sufficient gravel for a real winter. Remember two or three years ago when the English bought into the global warming bit and were completely unprepared for an unusually bad winter. The Russians have had enough common sense to ignore the drivel and were well prepared for what is proving to be one of their most brutal winters ever.

Was referring to a particular NOAA map that MacDoc had posted showing the temperature averages for a particular year. When NOAA shows a certain region as above average when that region was in fact way below average, it clearly shows that these numbers are either very unreliable or deliberately massaged to fit the needs of those publishing the data. Incidentally same map also showed Argentina as being average that year. Again local reports had it being the second coldest year on record. So this was not just a single anomaly. 

Massaging data may make the numbers match the shattered hockey stick but cannot be called good science. 

As often as I disagree with the Harpo regime, they are right about CO2. As most of Canada's CO2 comes from heating homes and transportation, 5 or 10 year plans cannot have any significant impact. Houses need to be gradually replaced with more efficient models. Energy plants need to be with in major population centres; to reduce transmission losses, to reduce reliance on outside sources and to allow heat generated in producing electricity to also be used to heat homes and/or office buildings. Changing transportation patterns is similarly a long term project.


----------



## groovetube

After seeing the news report of the young kid shot in the head in his living room from outside, I wondered, what ever happened to this law and order agenda the conservatives were pumping. I recall Harper seizing the moment when Jane Creba was shot.

Homicide offences, number and rate, by province and territory

well it seems after a small dip in 2010, homicides are still the same. I don't know what the 2012 numbers are, but what is the real effect of Harper's law and order agenda.

Besides some swaggerin' yelps.


----------



## iMouse

Well, the Premier-designate of Ontario is an openly Gay woman.

If George Smitherman get in as Mayor of Toronto in the next election, we're all going to Hell. 

It's Sodom and Gomorrah all over again.

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

With Dalton McGuinty as premiere, we were already in hell. What's the difference?


----------



## iMouse

This one has tits.

Or was that rhetorical? lol


----------



## eMacMan

iMouse said:


> Well, the Premier-designate of Ontario is an openly Gay woman.
> 
> If George Smitherman get in as Mayor of Toronto in the next election, we're all going to Hell.
> 
> It's Sodom and Gomorrah all over again.
> 
> :lmao:



What is ironic is that there were no openly honest candidates. OK more Business as usual rather than ironic.


----------



## iMouse

eMacMan said:


> What is ironic is that there were no openly honest candidates.
> 
> OK more Business as usual rather than ironic.


Nice save.

You almost let your naivete out for a stroll there.


----------



## eMacMan

*N i ndp*

Wonder if any one else has noticed this change.

Prior to his death my wife would occasionally eMail Jack Layton. Sometimes to disagree with him, sometimes to simply direct his attention to something she thought was important.

Whatever the reason his office always replied. Not so naive as to believe it was him personally. The replies were invariably courteous and always addressed the topic. Even where there was disagreement it was obvious that the eMail had been read, and understood, the reply clearly outlining the reason(s) he disagreed.

For the most part Mulchair's office has not bothered to reply and when he does you are left wondering whose eMail he was responding to as it was certainly not the one sent.

Is this the New Improved NDP?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Wonder if any one else has noticed this change.
> 
> Prior to his death my wife would occasionally eMail Jack Layton. Sometimes to disagree with him, sometimes to simply direct his attention to something she thought was important.
> 
> Whatever the reason his office always replied. Not so naive as to believe it was him personally. The replies were invariably courteous and always addressed the topic. Even where there was disagreement it was obvious that the eMail had been read, and understood, the reply clearly outlining the reason(s) he disagreed.
> 
> For the most part Mulchair's office has not bothered to reply and when he does you are left wondering whose eMail he was responding to as it was certainly not the one sent.
> 
> Is this the New Improved NDP?


That is just the difference between MPs. Some (and their staff) take great strides to read and reply to e-mails... others not so much... it doesn't surprise me that Mulcair is a "not so much" kind of guy. 

He is far to self important to be bothered with such trivialities.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Wonder if any one else has noticed this change.
> 
> Prior to his death my wife would occasionally eMail Jack Layton. Sometimes to disagree with him, sometimes to simply direct his attention to something she thought was important.
> 
> Whatever the reason his office always replied. Not so naive as to believe it was him personally. The replies were invariably courteous and always addressed the topic. Even where there was disagreement it was obvious that the eMail had been read, and understood, the reply clearly outlining the reason(s) he disagreed.
> 
> For the most part Mulchair's office has not bothered to reply and when he does you are left wondering whose eMail he was responding to as it was certainly not the one sent.
> 
> Is this the New Improved NDP?


Oddly enough, I attempted to contact Kathleen Wynne's office numerous times regarding various policies. It was clear that the e-mail was opened, but their response was always boiler plate stuff that did not provide answers to my questions--just some material that contained similar key words.


----------



## groovetube

Corporations using tax savings to fatten bank accounts, not create jobs: report | CTV News

well there's a big surprise.


----------



## Rps

Screature, what you say about individual members is quite true. When i lived in Bowmanville we had John O'toole as our MPP, he always either wrote or called when you had a question and it was in such a manner that you knew he actually read your question....Oda was another matter....


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Corporations using tax savings to fatten bank accounts, not create jobs: report | CTV News
> 
> well there's a big surprise.


Corporations including Apple keep most of their savings safely tax-free in offshore accounts. Were the IRS to clue in to the Supreme Court ruling that corporations can be treated as persons, they could little wipe out the cash reserves of every Apple, GE, Exxon and any other multinational corporation you can name, via FATCA.


----------



## groovetube

$1M price tag for limos shipped to India for Harper visit | CTV News

spend spend spend.

Makes one chuckle at the insistence of the unproven assertion that the liberals 'woulda spent more'.

Even though, that never happened.


----------



## SINC

* Miss this part did we?



> However, a spokesman for the prime minister said * *the decision to ship the armoured SUV and a Cadillac limousine was made by the RCMP.*


Wouldn't matter if it was a Liberal, NDP or Conservative government, the spending would be the same.


----------



## groovetube

oh oh!!!! Not our fault! Well isn't this a familiar refrain from the conservatives. 

It's always important to have an out. If Harper really was interested in reigning in costs, he could have questioned the need for this expenditure.

* And that, I did not miss. And I'm sure some not willing to take BS excuses won't either.


----------



## SINC

The RCMP is in charge of and directs all security for Canadian PMs regardless of party. No PM in his right mind would question an RCMP security decision for foreign travel to ensure his personal safety. Nor would any citizen who understood how the system works for ANY party's leader.


----------



## groovetube

Clearly you didn't read the article.

If even the public is aware of the fact that India could have provided good security, then one has to assume Harper himself would know.

I don't buy the horse manure that Harper wouldn't question the RCMP. Utter nonsense.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> The RCMP is in charge of and directs all security for Canadian PMs regardless of party. No PM in his right mind would question an RCMP security decision for foreign travel to ensure his personal safety. Nor would any citizen who understood how the system works for ANY party's leader.


This is such a non-story, the media and the NDP should be embarrassed for trying to make an issue out if it. Only in Canada would the cost of keeping their leader safe in a foreign land come into question. 

Notice the Liberals at least aren't making an issue out of it because they actually have had a PM among their ranks and so understand what is a stake. This is pure amateur stuff coming from a party that has never actually been in power and don't have a clue.


----------



## groovetube

only because you say so?

At what point do we start questioning the spending when even publicly is known cheaper alternatives would have also provided good security?

And I'm not surprised the liberals aren't saying much on this either. Tough to criticize when you yourself have spent.

Let's also remember that we weren't allowed to criticize the nearly billion bucks for security at G20 fiasco. For a party and supporters so concerned about spending and others spending more, I smell total hypocrisy.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Wouldn't matter if it was a Liberal, NDP or Conservative government, the spending would be the same.


I was going to say that any fool knows this. But I will change that to "most fools."


----------



## groovetube

"no one in their right mind"

"they should be embarrassed"

and "any fool"??? Well fury you're all class aren't you.

Is that the best the unholy trinity can come up with? And you all chastise others for this behaviour or report people? pffft.

Sorry. If even the public can know that India could have provided proper security without tax payers spending a million bucks, then Harper and co would have known, and if they were so concerned about government spending, did something. Period.

All I see, are BS excuses. Coupled with taunts. But you'll have to do better than that.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> This is such a non-story, the media and the NDP should be embarrassed for trying to make an issue out if it. Only in Canada would the cost of keeping their leader safe in a foreign land come into question.
> 
> Notice the Liberals at least aren't making an issue out of it because they actually have had a PM among their ranks and so understand what is a stake. This is pure amateur stuff coming from a party that has never actually been in power and don't have a clue.


Brainfarts like these are part of the reason why the NDP is going to implode into obscurity under Mulcair.


----------



## groovetube

ah, you've outdone yourself. 'Brainfarts'.

The rage continues!

Love it.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> The RCMP is in charge of and directs all security for Canadian PMs regardless of party. No PM in his right mind would question an RCMP security decision for foreign travel to ensure his personal safety. Nor would any citizen who understood how the system works for ANY party's leader.


I agree. The general public are in no position to rationally criticize the security arrangements for the PM or other heads-of-state; security at that level is a complex business and experts are understandably cautious about disseminating the details of their professional activities. Of course, that's nothing like science, which is a simple matter that anyone can figure out by reading a few blogs... so it's perfectly plausible that someone with no expertise in a given scientific feild will find obvious glaring holes in well-established scientific theories, and be able to refute the life's work of thousands of people with Ph.D.s by doing a few simple calculations 

(note; this last bit of sarcasm is not directed at you personally SINC... I just hope some people around here can recognize their own hypocrisy).


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I agree. The general public are in no position to rationally criticize the security arrangements for the PM or other heads-of-state; security at that level is a complex business and experts are understandably cautious about disseminating the details of their professional activities. Of course, that's nothing like science, which is a simple matter that anyone can figure out by reading a few blogs... so it's perfectly plausible that someone with no expertise in a given scientific feild will find obvious glaring holes in well-established scientific theories, and be able to refute the life's work of thousands of people with Ph.D.s by doing a few simple calculations
> 
> (note; this last bit of sarcasm is not directed at you personally SINC... *I just hope some people around here can recognize their own hypocrisy*).


oh, somehow I doubt it.

Let's see the outrage if someone were to use the same responses in the GHG thread, using phrases like 'fools' etc.


----------



## groovetube

well that was fun.

3 Conservative MPs raised concerns about CNOOC-Nexen deal - Politics - CBC News

I have never read anything good about this deal. I have to wonder, why did Harper approve of such a deal? The 3 MPs that wrote Harper were right. This deal seems to have a real stench about it, and somehow I don't think the full story on this will be known tl years later.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I agree. The general public are in no position to rationally criticize the security arrangements for the PM or other heads-of-state; security at that level is a complex business and experts are understandably cautious about disseminating the details of their professional activities. Of course, that's nothing like science, which is a simple matter that anyone can figure out by reading a few blogs... so it's perfectly plausible that someone with no expertise in a given scientific feild will find obvious glaring holes in well-established scientific theories, and be able to refute the life's work of thousands of people with Ph.D.s by doing a few simple calculations


It's not a good analogy. Anyone can pick holes in a security strategy. Sometimes they will be right, sometimes they will be wrong--just as in someone examining "the life's work of someone with a Ph.D." It's the existence of the protocol for security that was not acknowledged by the NDP--probably deliberately. However, it is available for anyone who wants to spend a few minutes looking for it.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha look what you started bryanc. He just can't help himself.


----------



## FeXL

Toronto examines allowing non-Canadians to vote



> A committee of Toronto city councillors wants to see how non-Canadians might be able to vote in municipal elections.
> 
> The community development and recreation committee voted Thursday to ask city staff to look at how permanent residents in Toronto could participate in casting future ballots.
> 
> The report is due back in May and will include whether it is possible to allow permanent residents to vote in next year's election.


I think this is a really bad idea.

Any other thoughts?


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Toronto examines allowing non-Canadians to vote
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a really bad idea.
> 
> Any other thoughts?


Speaking as a Canadian via immigration, Canada's citizenship criteria are not that onerous or expensive. If you can afford the cost of immigration, then citizenship is easily within your reach. With that in mind it seems to me that voting should be limited to those who care enough about Canada to become citizens.

I will go further and state that any one who enjoys dual citizenship and wants to run for federal office should first be required to relinquish or revoke their non-Canadian citizenship. An MPs or cabinet members loyalty should be exclusively to Canada; not the USA, not France, not Israel.... Split loyalty at the federal level is a very bad idea.


----------



## iMouse

If they pay property taxes, why not, but not renters as they can come and go.


----------



## Sonal

They are looking to allow permanent residents to vote.

If you're a PR, you live here, you work here, you pay taxes here... so why not?


----------



## Sonal

iMouse said:


> If they pay property taxes, why not, but not renters as they can come and go.


About 50% of Toronto's population are renters.

We have tenants who've been renting the same place for over 40 years; that's pretty permanent.


----------



## groovetube

I agree, though this needs to be thought through.


----------



## iMouse

Sonal said:


> About 50% of Toronto's population are renters.
> 
> We have tenants who've been renting the same place for over 40 years; that's pretty permanent.


OK on that, but are not most of those people Canadian citizens by now?


----------



## Macfury

Citizens only, thanks. Voting in a municipal election has more than local implications.


----------



## SINC

As a matter of interest, both our city and the city of Edmonton are going to use internet voting for municipal elections this coming October. Edmonton tested it last fall and our city tested it with mailing out keys to every household on a recent survey and you filled it in online. Neither city found any abnormalities with using the system. Regular polling stations will of course be used, but any citizen with a permanent residence can obtain a code to use the web to vote. The hope is that it will increase voter participation from a traditional 40% or so to more like 60 or even 70% as folks can vote on their smart phones, tablets etc. They also hope it will encourage young adults to take and interest in politics and vote. The 18 to 25 age turnout is really low.


----------



## iMouse

Some politicians are scared to death of this concept *coughrepublicanscough*.

They have a lot invested in the crafting the current "system".

System??? :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

iMouse said:


> OK on that, but are not most of those people Canadian citizens by now?


Ah... I see what I misunderstood about what you said earlier. I gotcha now.

Tough call. Given home ownership prices in Toronto, on the surface that seems to favour wealthier permanent residents. 

Might be better to favour longevity of residence in the city for PRs.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> As a matter of interest, both our city and the city of Edmonton are going to use internet voting for municipal elections this coming October. Edmonton tested it last fall and our city tested it with mailing out keys to every household on a recent survey and you filled it in online. Neither city found any abnormalities with using the system. Regular polling stations will of course be used, but any citizen with a permanent residence can obtain a code to use the web to vote. The hope is that it will increase voter participation from a traditional 40% or so to more like 60 or even 70% as folks can vote on their smart phones, tablets etc. They also hope it will encourage young adults to take and interest in politics and vote. The 18 to 25 age turnout is really low.


I wonder what the price of Internet voting keys ill be on the open market?


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> I wonder what the price of Internet voting keys ill be on the open market?


I was thinking a guy like Newman on Sienfeld would make a fortune, but holding all the mail holding keys.

Canada Post I would tend to trust.

USPS, not so much.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> As a matter of interest, both our city and the city of Edmonton are going to use internet voting for municipal elections this coming October. Edmonton tested it last fall and our city tested it with mailing out keys to every household on a recent survey and you filled it in online. Neither city found any abnormalities with using the system. Regular polling stations will of course be used, but any citizen with a permanent residence can obtain a code to use the web to vote. The hope is that it will increase voter participation from a traditional 40% or so to more like 60 or even 70% as folks can vote on their smart phones, tablets etc. They also hope it will encourage young adults to take and interest in politics and vote. The 18 to 25 age turnout is really low.


Nova Scotia did this October 2012. As I understand it, that Province is the only jurisdiction in Canada with every citizen living within an area with local government (Municipality.)

The turn outs for these past elections were abysmal even with internet voting. If I remember correctly below 40% over all.


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> The turn outs for these past elections were abysmal even with internet voting. If I remember correctly below 40% over all.


Ease of voting might be a minor hurdle, when compared to voter disgust with the choices offered by the 'political system'.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> They are looking to allow permanent residents to vote.
> 
> If you're a PR, you live here, you work here, you pay taxes here... so why not?


Because you aren't a citizen that's why not. Go the extra step and then you can vote.

"Membership" has its privileges.


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> Because you aren't a citizen that's why not. Go the extra step and then you can vote.
> 
> "Membership" has its privileges.


Sounds good on paper, but what of the Feds, who open the doors for all, just to buy their future votes.

This investment might take some time to reach fruition. if they have to wait until they become actual citizens.


----------



## Dr.G.

Timmins closes Shania Twain centre - Arts & Entertainment - CBC News

An end of an era.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Timmins closes Shania Twain centre - Arts & Entertainment - CBC News
> 
> An end of an era.


It was a bit ridiculous in the first place.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Timmins closes Shania Twain centre - Arts & Entertainment - CBC News
> 
> An end of an era.


How very appropriate a money pit transforming into a money pit.


----------



## Rps

iMouse, we are an immigrant nation, would you rather we become a migrant one?


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> How very appropriate a money pit transforming into a money pit.


Good one. :clap::lmao::clap:


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Because you aren't a citizen that's why not. Go the extra step and then you can vote.
> 
> "Membership" has its privileges.


Sure, so exclude provincial and federal voting. But municipally, some areas of Toronto have very high immigrant populations... they affect the communities they live in, and are similarly affected by those communities. At a local level, I think it makes sense.


----------



## BigDL

The Municipal (local government) seems to be the least interesting level of government to voters. It is an interesting contradiction. The elected representative for the local area may live in your neighbourhood and maybe only a couple or few streets away.

The Federal and Provincial levels of Government, in that order, do receive more attention from the media than local government(s) receives. That may account people's awareness of the issues. It could also be the perceived power associated with Federal and Provincial Government have an affect as well.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Sure, so exclude provincial and federal voting. But municipally, some areas of Toronto have very high immigrant populations... they affect the communities they live in, and are similarly affected by those communities. At a local level, I think it makes sense.


So people who maintain a Toronto address but don't live here should mail in a vote?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> So people who maintain a Toronto address but don't live here should mail in a vote?


I'm double-checking, but I believe that they currently have a right to do so.


----------



## groovetube

People who own property and wish to have a say on matters affecting them may want a say.

I would have thought that may be a plus to the far right in municipal politic but that's cool by me if not!


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> People who own property and wish to have a say on matters affecting them may want a say.
> 
> I would have thought that may be a plus to the far right in municipal politic but that's cool by me if not!


Non-resident renters have a right to vote municipally too.

City of Toronto: Elections - Toronto Votes 2010 - Voters



> You can vote in the City of Toronto municipal election if you are:
> 
> a Canadian citizen, and
> at least 18 years old, and
> a resident of the City of Toronto, *or
> *a non-resident owner or tenant of land in the City of Toronto, or their spouse, and
> not prohibited from voting under any law


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Non-resident renters have a right to vote municipally too.
> 
> City of Toronto: Elections - Toronto Votes 2010 - Voters


That I didn't know.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I'm double-checking, but I believe that they currently have a right to do so.


I meant a non-resident of Toronto who is also not a citizen. Do you believe that the ownership of property is enough that they should be granted a municipal vote?


----------



## iMouse

Rps said:


> iMouse, we are an immigrant nation, would you rather we become a migrant one?


I would rather these immigrants be more thoughtful, and not vote as a block by rote.


----------



## groovetube

I saw this today:



> Conrad Black: The election of Kathleen Wynne and Pauline Marois’ Scotland visit might incite fear that much of Canada is being led by nasty women


Right. Conrad likes his women docile, nice, and agreeable. It's really only for the men to be nasty or conniving.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I meant a non-resident of Toronto who is also not a citizen. Do you believe that the ownership of property is enough that they should be granted a municipal vote?


Well, ownership of property is enough to take their property tax dollars. 

But it's an interesting question; how much vested interested do you have to have in a place before you get a vote? Seems odd that a property-owning non-resident citizen gets a vote when a property-owning resident non-citizen does not. In some sense, I would think that the person who actually lives here demonstrates more of a vested interest in the city.... certainly if they've lived here for some length of time.

I'm definitely a lot less comfortable with the idea of non-resident non-citizen voting, though I'd want to think through my opinion some more.


----------



## iMouse

Sonal, my bottom line is this.

If they are not paying for the services covered by a particular election, they should not be able to vote.

That goes for free-loaders living with family/friends/what ever.

Of course direct, close relations would be exempt. Grand-parents, parents, siblings and offspring. 

The rest can get jobs, pay taxes and get with the community.


----------



## Sonal

iMouse said:


> Sonal, my bottom line is this.
> 
> If they are not paying for the services covered by a particular election, they should not be able to vote.
> 
> That goes for free-loaders living with family/friends/what ever.
> 
> Of course direct, close relations would be exempt. Grand-parents, parents, siblings and offspring.
> 
> The rest can get jobs, pay taxes and get with the community.


Technically, since we have both provincial and federal sales taxes, that would make everyone who purchases something in Canada eligible to vote federally and probably provincially. 

(I know that is not the intent of what you are saying.) 

But then.... what happens to someone who becomes unemployed? Do they no longer get a vote because they no longer have payroll taxes? What about the self-employed who are still getting their businesses off the ground? What about retirees who know longer pay taxes? What about people who are unable to work?

I don't think money should entitle someone to a vote.


----------



## iMouse

This is turning into a dog's breakfast, quickly. 

How about no citizenship, no vote? 

Harsh? Perhaps. But it could become a case of ****, or get off the pot.


----------



## Sonal

iMouse said:


> This is turning into a dog's breakfast, quickly.
> 
> How about no citizenship, no vote?
> 
> Harsh? Perhaps. But it could become a case of ****, or get off the pot.


That's the status quo. 

Though it's not necessarily an issue of **** or get off the pot--the process takes a few years. (And the wheels of government are not typically speedy.)

And, back to the original issue, there are areas of Toronto and the GTA where the population is as much as 30% new immigrants. That's a large part of the community that's has no local voice.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And, back to the original issue, there are areas of Toronto and the GTA where the population is as much as 30% new immigrants. That's a large part of the community that's has no local voice.


No vote, but they still hgave a voice. And what's wrong with that until they lean the ropes?


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> I saw this today:
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Conrad likes his women docile, nice, and agreeable. It's really only for the men to be nasty or conniving.


Actually Groove did you read it..... in his pedantic way he supports women not just these two, which is what the title suggests............ Wynne is a matter of preference, but he's dead on with Marois


----------



## Rps

iMouse said:


> This is turning into a dog's breakfast, quickly.
> 
> How about no citizenship, no vote?
> 
> Harsh? Perhaps. But it could become a case of ****, or get off the pot.


Really!!! This is municipal elections we're talking about, so, if you own property in the municipality you should be able to vote no matter where you live.....Provincial and Federal, well that's another matter.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Really!!! This is municipal elections we're talking about, so, if you own property in the municipality you should be able to vote no matter where you live.....Provincial and Federal, well that's another matter.


Why is owning property suddenly the hallmark of voting? Why not let that apply to citizen renters, too. No double-standard.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Really!!! This is municipal elections we're talking about, so, if you own property in the municipality you should be able to vote no matter where you live.....Provincial and Federal, well that's another matter.


wait until it suddenly dawns on them that including those property owners might really benefit the slash taxes don't give a rip about social program and bomb the union halls sorts.

Suddenly the idea will have it's own dixie band :lmao:


----------



## MacDoc

Retreat of the dunderhead.....



> *Harper retreats to the safety of crime: Walkom
> The prime minister's attempts to re-make Canada in his image have hit a roadblock.*
> 
> Stephen Harper is moving back into safe territory.
> That’s the significance of Justice Minister Rob Nicholson’s announcement Monday that the Conservative government plans to get tougher on those who sexually abuse children.
> The announcement was unusually content-free. Nicholson didn’t say how Ottawa would get tougher. On CBC radio the next day he was equally vague.
> But clarity wasn’t the point. The point was to signal to voters that the Conservatives plan to focus more narrowly on crime as they prepare for the expected 2015 election.
> Crime and the economy have always been central to the Harper Conservatives. But for a while he had a more ambitious agenda.
> The prime minister’s aim, as some of his advisers boasted privately, was to redefine the political landscape in a way that cemented his Conservatives into place as the default governing party.
> Like most people, Canadians are a complicated lot whose views don’t fall into neat, left-right categories.
> Harper’s strategy was to emphasize those elements of his party’s ideological platform that he believed would resonate strongly with the prevailing Canadian psyche.
> That meant playing down some social issues such as gay marriage and abortion — issues that spook just too many voters.
> It meant playing up issues on which the Conservatives are traditionally seen as strong, such as crime, tax relief and economic management.
> But the Harper Conservatives also moved boldly into new territory.
> Their emphasis on military prowess was an attempt to appeal to the powerful emotions of pride and patriotism.
> Previous governments had focused on United Nations peacekeeping. Harper focused on war.
> The glorification of the War of 1812 was designed to remind Canadians that the country’s very existence stemmed in part from battle.
> The Afghan war was pitched as the logical outcome of that history, a national project in which Canadians could come together to fight evil in a far-away land.
> Simultaneously, the Conservative government expanded the concept of sound economic management.
> No longer did it just mean frugality. To manage this economy, the Harperites said, entire layers of regulation — particularly with regard to the environment — had to be eliminated.
> Fish habitat laws might protect fish, the government said. But the very existence of such rules put the economy in mortal danger.
> Indeed, the economy took on a life of its own, as something over and above those puny beings who happened to live and work in it.
> That individuals might suffer from, say, changes to Employment Insurance rules didn’t matter. What mattered was that overarching entity called “the economy.”
> *But a funny thing happened along the way. Much of the effort to remake Canada didn’t work.*
> 
> The Afghan war proved a disaster. Now, as demonstrated by his reluctance to become involved in Mali’s civil war, Harper doesn’t even want to be seen talking about military adventures.
> 
> Similarly, the frontal attack on the environment flopped. It sparked massive opposition in British Columbia and aboriginal protests nation-wide.
> Government attempts to label environmental critics as the paid agents of foreign socialist billionaires were discounted by all but the most ideologically committed Conservatives.
> 
> And so Harper has beaten a tactical retreat to the tried and true. He may still do little to help the environment. But he no longer brags about his inaction.
> Instead it’s crime and the economy. The economy and crime.
> The formula worked before. The Conservatives hope it will work again.


Harper retreats to the safety of crime: Walkom | Toronto Star

That's it - play on fears....**** on the environment....and hmmm how big is that Alberta deficit....


----------



## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> Retreat of the dunderhead.....
> 
> 
> 
> Harper retreats to the safety of crime: Walkom | Toronto Star
> 
> That's it - play on fears....**** on the environment....and hmmm how big is that Alberta deficit....


But macdoc, the Albertan provincial government, aren't -real- conservatives. But, given the incredible bloat of the fed government, the spending, and historic deficits, what does that say about the federal conservatives?

I suppose, as long as they continue to whisper sweet conservative nothings into the ears of their supporters, it's all good.


----------



## BigDL

*ROBOCALLS, Looky, Looky Who's at it AGAIN!*

Conservatives RoboCalls up to the PMO? Who's Interfering with the Saskatchewan Electoral Boundaries Commission? After being caught the Conservatives plead to their guilt. :clap:

Liberal MP calls on CRTC to investigate Conservative robocalls in SK - Inside Politics

Conservatives out of ideas, out of new policies, out of luck and soon out of time

2015 looms ever closer, tic. tic, tic...and I mean that in the nicest possible way. :lmao:


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Conservatives RoboCalls up to the PMO? Who's Interfering with the Saskatchewan Electoral Boundaries Commission? After being caught the Conservatives plead to their guilt. :clap:
> 
> Liberal MP calls on CRTC to investigate Conservative robocalls in SK - Inside Politics
> 
> Conservatives out of ideas, out of new policies, out of luck and soon out of time
> 
> *2015 looms ever closer, tic. tic, tic...*and I mean that in the nicest possible way. :lmao:


Hope springs eternal.


----------



## Rps

I see Ontario Premiere-elect Wynne has named herself the Agriculture Minister as well......curious, holding a spot for the Windsor Warrior Princess when Duncan leaves this week??????????


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Hope springs eternal.


Yes. I see that their opponents are building up quite an anemic war chest to do battle with them in the upcoming election--which is years away, I might add!


----------



## Dr.G.

This only makes sense for Brazeau. Why give up a gold-plated retirement plan when you are only in your late 30s. A few more years as a Senator sitting as an independent will enable him to retire in style ............... funded mainly by the tax-payers of Canada. tptptptp:greedy: 

"Patrick Brazeau in custody, kicked out of Tory caucus

Senator appointed by Harper and known for controversy to sit as Independent"

Patrick Brazeau in custody, kicked out of Tory caucus - Politics - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> This only makes sense for Brazeau. Why give up a gold-plated retirement plan when you are only in your late 30s. A few more years as a Senator sitting as an independent will enable him to retire in style ............... funded mainly by the tax-payers of Canada. tptptptp:greedy:
> 
> "Patrick Brazeau in custody, kicked out of Tory caucus
> 
> Senator appointed by Harper and known for controversy to sit as Independent"
> 
> Patrick Brazeau in custody, kicked out of Tory caucus - Politics - CBC News


Read that. Incredible.



> "I built my reputation on the need for greater accountability,
> 
> and I will continue practising what I preach."


We keep hearing this mantra about accountability. I don't think the conservatives quite understand what accountability means, nor do they seem to give a rats rear do they.


----------



## i-rui

Harper was just waiting for any reason to dump him since he got his clock cleaned by Trudeau. He was supposed to have been their ringer!


----------



## BigDL

*How's about a Senator's view of a Journalist's Duties*

Then there's a tiny mike recorded comments like these.

RAW Senator Duffy avoids reporters - News - CBC Player

A former Journalist castigates a working Journalist "Paul (Withers) you should be doing adult work" as the Senator sneaks out of a conference through the kitchen of a hotel.

Must make Conservatives everywhere proud.


----------



## Lawrence

Rate Stephen Harper

No trolls please, Unless you work for the Conservative Government of Canada

...


----------



## MacGuiver

Lawrence said:


> Rate Stephen Harper
> 
> No trolls please, Unless you work for the Conservative Government of Canada
> 
> ...


What a waste of electrons.
It appears if your a lefty you give him the lowest scores possible, if your a righty you give him the highest scores possible. Is nobody capable of an honest appraisal these days? Its all black and white down party lines.


----------



## groovetube

Sorta like the ballot box I suppose.


----------



## Lawrence

MacGuiver said:


> What a waste of electrons.
> It appears if your a lefty you give him the lowest scores possible, if your a righty you give him the highest scores possible. Is nobody capable of an honest appraisal these days? Its all black and white down party lines.


Ya think? I'm not a troll, So I wouldn't know.

...


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> Ya think? *I'm not a troll*, So I wouldn't know.
> 
> ...


:lmao:


----------



## Lawrence

screature said:


> :lmao:


Let's put it this way, I don't insult people on ehMac
I don't tell them to _ _ _ _ _ off and get away with it

I don't start new threads and quote other peoples names
I don't make enemies on purpose for fun

...


----------



## BigDL

Let's see. Who appointed Senator Brazeau and Senator Duffy? Who showed incredible bad judgement by vetting these Senators?


----------



## screature

Lawrence said:


> Let's put it this way, I don't insult people on ehMac
> I don't tell them to _ _ _ _ _ off and get away with it
> 
> I don't start new threads and quote other peoples names
> I don't make enemies on purpose for fun
> 
> ...


What ever you say and believe Lawrence so that you can sleep at night. It really doesn't matter to me.


----------



## Lawrence

screature said:


> What ever say and believe Lawrence so that you can sleep at night. It really doesn't matter to me.


Whatever
...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Let's see. Who appointed Senator Brazeau and Senator Duffy? Who showed incredible bad judgement by vetting these Senators?


They were appointed based on their past actions not their present. Brazeau was turfed as soon as he was arrested.

So let's see, based on your argument, let's say I hire someone with a clean rap sheet and a good resume and they subsequently go on to embezzle the company and somehow it means I am complicit/responsible for their crime... yeah right... try and prove that in any court in the land. 

How is the PM accountable for the actions of the Senators once they became Senators when all he could go by to judge their character was their past behaviour?

If after they are appointed to the senate and go "bad" the PM has no culpability or responsibility.

Had Harper defended Brazeau it would be a different matter but he didn't he immediately turfed him when there was an arrest.


----------



## groovetube

Senator Patrick Brazeau crashes after years of boorish behaviour: Tim Harper | Toronto Star


> The question that must be asked in this latest disgraceful chapter in Senate history is how did Brazeau’s number ever come up?
> There is nothing in the realm of hindsight in raising the question on the day Brazeau was booted from the Conservative caucus, facing charges in connection with a domestic disturbance.
> Not content with the windfall provided by Harper, Brazeau immediately announced he would continue his six-figure job as head of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, until he was persuaded that such unseemly double-dipping was officially discouraged.
> When he was appointed that morning, along with 17 others in a mid-prorogation patronage frenzy, the Conservative government already knew then-Indian Affairs Minister Jim Prentice had received letters from aboriginal leaders in this country questioning the membership and spending of the organization Brazeau headed.
> *The prime minister’s office knew this former model and martial arts expert was facing a charge of sexual harassment.*
> Kory Teneycke, Harper’s spokesperson of the day, said the prime minister was aware of the allegations and said Harper was “proud” to appoint Brazeau since there was no finding of misconduct.
> Days later, news emerged of a troubling audit of CAP by Health Canada leading then Opposition leader Michael Ignatieff — 12 days after Brazeau’s swearing-in — to question whether he was “Senate material.’’
> *Then the Star’s Joanna Smith reported that the new senator, who drove a Porsche SUV, was behind in child support payments. The PMO, by then, was hiding behind its “private matter” shield, but Brazeau was already displaying his penchant for blaming everyone but himself.*


I bolded just a couple.

There were red flags, and these are well known. For anyone to pretend otherwise is ridiculous, and dishonest. One doesn't need to hang around the hill to know these reports.


----------



## Sonal

As seen on Twitter:

@ivortossel: History may remember Patrick Brazeau as the man who finally rallied Canadians around an elected Senate, just to get rid of him.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> As seen on Twitter:
> 
> @ivortossel: History may remember Patrick Brazeau as the man who finally rallied Canadians around an elected Senate, just to get rid of him.


You know the conspiracy theorist in me was kinda wondering about that... Maybe this Harper fellow isn't as daft as some folks would like to portray him.


----------



## groovetube

There's always, a bright and shiny side to Harper!

However, let me make the daring guess, that Harper, didn't skillfully, and masterfully like a laser, quietly create a senator's misdeed situation to convince everyone an elected senate was a good idea.

Just a weeeeeeee hunch


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> There's always, a bright and shiny side to Harper!
> 
> However, let me make the daring guess, that Harper, didn't skillfully, and masterfully like a laser, quietly create a senator's misdeed situation to convince everyone an elected senate was a good idea.
> 
> Just a weeeeeeee hunch


Harper is on the sunny side of the street in Ottawa. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn3soYbSpS4]Louis Armstrong - On The Sunny Side Of The Street [with lyrics] - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

I was a little bit sarcastic. I'm sorry. It's probably the 'leftard' in me


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I was a little bit sarcastic. I'm sorry. It's probably the 'leftard' in me


Oh. I thought that you had decided to join up on the "right" side of the street, which is always sunny and is the right side to be on .............. especially during the reign of a Conservative majority. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Oh. I thought that you had decided to join up on the "right" side of the street, which is always sunny and is the right side to be on .............. especially during the reign of a Conservative majority. Paix, mon ami.


not to worry, the 're-education camp' didn't quite take.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> not to worry, the 're-education camp' didn't quite take.


Well, Room 101 has a new and improved electro-shock treatment that will drive out your liberal demons and replace them with proper thoughts, making you a right-minded person. Bonne chance, mon ami.


----------



## bryanc

While I find the public flame outs of the rich and powerful as amusing as the next guy, I can't being a little disgusted at how easily the general public and the media is distracted from the serious malfeasance of the Conservative Government by the clownish antics of a couple of senators.

Although, to be fair, this did get covered in the Edmonton Journal, but it's getting far less attention that it deserves.

The idea that the government should dictate to universities what should and should not be studied is not really surprising, coming from an ideologue like Harper. But I'm genuinely surprised that they think they can pick economic "winners" from the research done by Canadian universities. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind about wether the Conservatives were anti-intellectual corporate shills, it should be gone now.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> While I find the public flame outs of the rich and powerful as amusing as the next guy, I can't being a little disgusted at how easily the general public and the media is distracted from the serious malfeasance of the Conservative Government by the clownish antics of a couple of senators.
> 
> Although, to be fair, this did get covered in the Edmonton Journal, but it's getting far less attention that it deserves.
> 
> The idea that the government should dictate to universities what should and should not be studied is not really surprising, coming from an ideologue like Harper. But I'm genuinely surprised that they think they can pick economic "winners" from the research done by Canadian universities. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind about wether the Conservatives were anti-intellectual corporate shills, it should be gone now.


Yes, I have already received my warning. Even though a faculty of education is considered a professional school, where one is training a person for a specific job (i.e., teaching), as part of my courses I am always getting my grad students to think critically and to encourage them to have their K-12 students think critically and creatively as well. This is NOT an acceptable objective, and I have received my first warning letter. I shall be reassessed in a year's time, but I have stated that I shall not change this one aspect of my courses. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## bryanc

What worries me is that, having allowed the erosion of academic standards and the loss of critical thinking skills to progress so far, we now live in a society where a significant number of our fellow citizens won't see any problem with the government deciding what research questions are good and what questions are not worth funding.

Why should they doubt that the Mighty Harper already knows Everything Worth Knowing(tm) about fisheries management, or environmental impacts of oil extraction, or effective means of disease treatment, or the causes of global warming? It's perfectly reasonable that He should cut funding to those pinko lefty scientists who want to study such silly stuff, right?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> While I find the public flame outs of the rich and powerful as amusing as the next guy, I can't being a little disgusted at how easily the general public and the media is distracted from the serious malfeasance of the Conservative Government by the clownish antics of a couple of senators.
> 
> *Although, to be fair, this did get covered in the Edmonton Journal, but it's getting far less attention that it deserves.
> 
> The idea that the government should dictate to universities what should and should not be studied is not really surprising, coming from an ideologue like Harper. But I'm genuinely surprised that they think they can pick economic "winners" from the research done by Canadian universities. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind about wether the Conservatives were anti-intellectual corporate shills, it should be gone now*.



This has zero to with Harper or the feds, this is the about the provincial government of Alberta. It seems you didn't even read the article that you linked to. Also education falls under provincial jurisdiction not federal. Good lord man.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> This has zero to with Harper or the feds


Don't you work with these people? Can you actually say with a straight face that you believe Harper's anti-science brigade is not involved here? Alberta is their home turf; the local Cons are complete tame, and politically safe. This is where things get started.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Don't you work with these people? Can you actually say with a straight face that you believe Harper's anti-science brigade is not involved here? Alberta is their home turf; the local Cons are complete tame, and politically safe. This is where things get started.


That's just a sad accusation, bryanc. Where is your evidence?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Don't you work with these people? Can you actually say with a straight face that you believe Harper's anti-science brigade is not involved here? Alberta is their home turf; the local Cons are complete tame, and politically safe. This is where things get started.


Your paranoia is showing. 

Again education falls under provincial jurisdiction. The federal government is busy enough with the things that falls under its own jurisdiction without meddling in the business of the provinces and what falls under their jurisdiction.

It is the left that constantly wants to be stepping on the provinces toes and usurping their authority by calling for "National plans/strategies" for everything from homelessness to the eradication of toenail fungus.


----------



## bryanc

Harper et al. have repeatedly and emphatically shown their disdain for science and data-driven fields that conflict with their ideological agenda. They're doing what they can at the Federal level to extinguish science in Canada, and, if they're not giving the marching orders themselves, they're certainly encouraging their provincial fellow travellers to implement this agenda at the university level. This is not about education; it's about research. Teaching is only a small part of what universities do, and it is this larger role in knowledge-generation that the conservatives are trying to dismantle (for now... education comes later).


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Harper et al. have repeatedly and emphatically shown their disdain for science and data-driven fields that conflict with their ideological agenda. They're doing what they can at the Federal level to extinguish science in Canada, and, if they're not giving the marching orders themselves, they're certainly encouraging their provincial fellow travellers to implement this agenda at the university level. This is not about education; it's about research. Teaching is only a small part of what universities do, and it is this larger role in knowledge-generation that the conservatives are trying to dismantle (for now... education comes later).


Atomic number 50.


----------



## BigDL

When you meet a hole better to avoid it.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> *Harper et al. have repeatedly and emphatically shown their disdain for science and data-driven fields that conflict with their ideological agenda. They're doing what they can at the Federal level to extinguish science in Canada, and, if they're not giving the marching orders themselves, they're certainly encouraging their provincial fellow travellers to implement this agenda at the university level. * This is not about education; it's about research. Teaching is only a small part of what universities do, and it is this larger role in knowledge-generation that the conservatives are trying to dismantle (for now... education comes later).


Nonsense.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Harper et al. have repeatedly and emphatically shown their disdain for science and data-driven fields that conflict with their ideological agenda. They're doing what they can at the Federal level to extinguish science in Canada, and, if they're not giving the marching orders themselves, they're certainly encouraging their provincial fellow travellers to implement this agenda at the university level. This is not about education; it's about research. Teaching is only a small part of what universities do, and it is this larger role in knowledge-generation that the conservatives are trying to dismantle (for now... education comes later).


I agree, and the facts back this up.


----------



## Kosh

screature said:


> They were appointed based on their past actions not their present. Brazeau was turfed as soon as he was arrested.
> 
> So let's see, based on your argument, let's say I hire someone with a clean rap sheet and a good resume and they subsequently go on to embezzle the company and somehow it means I am complicit/responsible for their crime... yeah right... try and prove that in any court in the land.
> 
> How is the PM accountable for the actions of the Senators once they became Senators when all he could go by to judge their character was their past behaviour?
> 
> If after they are appointed to the senate and go "bad" the PM has no culpability or responsibility.
> 
> Had Harper defended Brazeau it would be a different matter but he didn't he immediately turfed him when there was an arrest.


By "turfed", I guess you mean kicked out of caucus, as apparently that's all Stephen Harper can do. Apparently he can't kick the Senators out of Senate. Apparently they can only be kicked out of Senate if they are convicted of a crime or if they don't show up to 2 consecutive sessions of the Senate. Then again, it may not be long before Brazeau is convicted of a crime, it may just be a question of which crime, fraud or assault.

And as Groovetube posted, there were a few signs of the problem with Brazeau, if Harper had had a background check done and paid attention to the signs.


----------



## groovetube

Kosh said:


> By "turfed", I guess you mean kicked out of caucus, as apparently that's all Stephen Harper can do. Apparently he can't kick the Senators out of Senate. Apparently they can only be kicked out of Senate if they are convicted of a crime or if they don't show up to 2 consecutive sessions of the Senate. Then again, it may not be long before Brazeau is convicted of a crime, it may just be a question of which crime, fraud or assault.
> 
> And as Groovetube posted, there were a few signs of the problem with Brazeau, if Harper had had a background check done and paid attention to the signs.


Wasn't there also someone else close to Harper who recently showed Harper's inability to check up on things?

Seems to be a bit of a pattern.


----------



## Kosh

bryanc said:


> Harper et al. have repeatedly and emphatically shown their disdain for science and data-driven fields that conflict with their ideological agenda. They're doing what they can at the Federal level to extinguish science in Canada, and, if they're not giving the marching orders themselves, they're certainly encouraging their provincial fellow travellers to implement this agenda at the university level. This is not about education; it's about research. Teaching is only a small part of what universities do, and it is this larger role in knowledge-generation that the conservatives are trying to dismantle (for now... education comes later).


 
They've definitely showed their disdain for any science that holds back development of resources. All the science and data the government has collected on any water, air, or land environmental impact is being discontinued, therefore we will have no tracking of the effects we have on the water, air and land (Or even on the animals and fish in those environments). Noone can complain about something that isn't be tracked.


----------



## bryanc

Kosh said:


> They've definitely showed their disdain for any science that holds back development of resources. All the science and data the government has collected on any water, air, or land environmental impact is being discontinued, therefore we will have no tracking of the effects we have on the water, air and land (Or even on the animals and fish in those environments). Noone can complain about something that isn't be tracked.


Bingo. They've also completely eliminated the funding for oceanographic research (bah! Oceans... who needs 'em!) and the NSERC Research Tools and Infrastructure program. The RTI program was the *only* program to which scientists doing basic research in Canada could apply for funding to buy research instruments (things like microscopes, centrifuges, spectrophotometers, etc.). When asked how scientists in Canada are supposed to do research without instruments, the government told us we should find "industry partners" to buy these things for us.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Bingo. They've also completely eliminated the funding for oceanographic research (bah! Oceans... who needs 'em!) and the NSERC Research Tools and Infrastructure program. The RTI program was the *only* program to which scientists doing basic research in Canada could apply for funding to buy research instruments (things like microscopes, centrifuges, spectrophotometers, etc.). When asked how scientists in Canada are supposed to do research without instruments, the government told us we should find "industry partners" to buy these things for us.


You roll your eyes but there is no reason why the government should necessarily pay for your tools. Consider yourself lucky that they have in the past.


----------



## groovetube

Personally, I'd consider monies spent on tools for scientists to research important things like water, air, and land environmental impacts, far far more important than say gazeboes in Clement's riding, or a billion on security for a poorly placed G20 photo op, (the list could go on...)


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You roll your eyes but there is no reason why the government should necessarily pay for your tools. Consider yourself lucky that they have in the past.


It's amazing how people who have been gifted in the past come to consider those gifts a right.


----------



## i-rui

yes, "gifts" like clean air & water.

what are us fortunate canadians thinking?!?! No more free ride lungs and bladder!


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> yes, "gifts" like clean air & water.
> 
> what are us fortunate canadians thinking?!?! No more free ride lungs and bladder!


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> yes, "gifts" like clean air & water.
> 
> what are us fortunate canadians thinking?!?! No more free ride lungs and bladder!


How did these become 'gifts' when it's -my- tax dollars going to pay for research that benefits me?

This logic is incredible.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> yes, "gifts" like clean air & water.
> 
> what are us fortunate canadians thinking?!?! No more free ride lungs and bladder!


What you're thinking is that there is some sort of link between buying tools for every scientist who wants them--and your bladder!


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> there is no reason why the government should necessarily pay for your tools.


This is absolutely a fair argument... if you have no understanding of science and its role in society (which clearly pertains to the Conservative government and many of their supporters).

Research is expensive, and basic research in particular has very poor odds of yielding economically valuable findings in the short term. Usually, by the time our scientific understanding of phenomena reach the point at which they can be applied to engineering technologies that can be used to generate wealth or solve practical problems, the research on which the knowledge is based is decades or even centuries old, and has segued into "common knowledge." But it is also the case that all societies do research, and our curiosity and exploratory instincts are part of "human nature." Furthermore, in the 20th and 21st century, it has been the countries that did the most "basic research" that dominated economically and politically. The American century was due in large part to the scientific progress the US fostered, and the emergence of the 'Asian Tigers' is similarly being heralded by the emergence of strong research expertise in those countries.

Canada has historically 'punched far above its weight' with regard to the contribution we've made to fundamental research in everything from physics to biomedical research, and we've benefited disproportionately because of it. Canada now spends proportionately less than Costa Rica on basic research (in terms of GDP), and we're not even close to any of the other G8 countries. While I wouldn't argue that this 'reprioritizing' of the tiny pittance we used to spend on research to other purposes will immediately result in the collapse of Canadian civilization, it will certainly result in an exodus of scientists and scientifically educated citizens, who will need to go find work elsewhere. There are only about 9000 NSERC funded scientists in Canada; if even a few thousand of us leave because of this, what do you think Canada will look like in 20 years?

Research funding is not a gift; it's an investment in Canada's future.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> What you're thinking is that there is some sort of link between buying tools for every scientist who wants them--and your bladder!


and what you're thinking is that there is no link between research and keeping the air and water clean.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> buying tools for every scientist who wants them


Research funding in Canada has historically been extremely competitive. I don't have the figures for the RTI program at hand, but I think success rates were generally around 12%. So it could hardly be characterized as "buying tools for every scientists who wants them."

Applicants generally put months into writing the applications, which almost invariably were proposals that would have to be justified by providing infrastructure that would serve many researchers and or clinical users. We always had to document the fact that we'd negotiated an extensive discount from suppliers, and most applications also involved getting matching contributions from the University or other institution and/or industry partners as well.

Getting funding for research in Canada has been very challenging since the 1980's at least, and it's been getting progressively more challenging. But since Harper got his majority, it's looking like it's gone from bad to impossible, and a lot of research labs are now looking at shutting down entirely.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Research funding is not a gift; it's an investment in Canada's future.


A gift. Some of the gifts will pay off. Most won't.

The Costa Rica example is lame. Given a small enough GDP, these figures are extremely exploitable for comparison.



i-rui said:


> and what you're thinking is that there is no link between research and keeping the air and water clean.


Absolutely not. However, the link is not linear.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> A gift. Some of the gifts will pay off. Most won't.


That's true of investing, venture capital, etc. in general... sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Wasn't there also someone else close to Harper who recently showed Harper's inability to check up on things?
> 
> Seems to be a bit of a pattern.


Yes but that guy was only chief of staff in the PMO.

Still the PMO had to admit to gerrymandering the Saskatchewan Electoral Boundaries but I guess that wasn't Our Glorious Leader, might have been that Pierre Poutine fellow selecting the plans and the people for the PMO and Senate.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> However, the link is not linear.


This is a crucial point. We can almost never correctly predict what the value of research will be, or even when that value will be obtained. However, discoveries made by researchers almost always turn out to be valuable, even if it takes decades and their value can only be seen in hindsight and in conjunction with many other discoveries.

So cutting Canada's already paltry spending on basic science research is a purely ideologically driven decision to twist the knife in the backs of a small constituency that has been vocally critical of Harper's leadership.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Absolutely not. However, the link is not linear.


often times it is :

Tories shut down 'groundbreaking' freshwater research station - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Yes but that guy was only chief of staff in the PMO.
> 
> Still the PMO had to admit to gerrymandering the Saskatchewan Electoral Boundaries but I guess that wasn't Our Glorious Leader, might have been that Pierre Poutine fellow selecting the plans and the people for the PMO and Senate.


Yes, I believe there is another quiet controversy with Harper having appointed Arthur Porter as chairman of Canada’s Security and Intelligence Review Committee.

A real interesting story there too.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> often times it is :
> 
> tories shut down 'groundbreaking' freshwater research station - the globe and mail


OH Snap!


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> This is absolutely a fair argument... if you have no understanding of science and its role in society (which clearly pertains to the Conservative government and many of their supporters).
> 
> Research is expensive, and basic research in particular has very poor odds of yielding economically valuable findings in the short term. Usually, by the time our scientific understanding of phenomena reach the point at which they can be applied to engineering technologies that can be used to generate wealth or solve practical problems, the research on which the knowledge is based is decades or even centuries old, and has segued into "common knowledge." But it is also the case that all societies do research, and our curiosity and exploratory instincts are part of "human nature." Furthermore, in the 20th and 21st century, it has been the countries that did the most "basic research" that dominated economically and politically. The American century was due in large part to the scientific progress the US fostered, and the emergence of the 'Asian Tigers' is similarly being heralded by the emergence of strong research expertise in those countries.
> 
> Canada has historically 'punched far above its weight' with regard to the contribution we've made to fundamental research in everything from physics to biomedical research, and we've benefited disproportionately because of it. Canada now spends proportionately less than Costa Rica on basic research (in terms of GDP), and we're not even close to any of the other G8 countries. While I wouldn't argue that this 'reprioritizing' of the tiny pittance we used to spend on research to other purposes will immediately result in the collapse of Canadian civilization, it will certainly result in an exodus of scientists and scientifically educated citizens, who will need to go find work elsewhere. There are only about 9000 NSERC funded scientists in Canada; if even a few thousand of us leave because of this, what do you think Canada will look like in 20 years?
> 
> Research funding is not a gift; it's an investment in Canada's future.





bryanc said:


> Research funding in Canada has historically been extremely competitive. I don't have the figures for the RTI program at hand, but I think success rates were generally around 12%. So it could hardly be characterized as "buying tools for every scientists who wants them."
> 
> Applicants generally put months into writing the applications, which almost invariably were proposals that would have to be justified by providing infrastructure that would serve many researchers and or clinical users. We always had to document the fact that we'd negotiated an extensive discount from suppliers, and most applications also involved getting matching contributions from the University or other institution and/or industry partners as well.
> 
> Getting funding for research in Canada has been very challenging since the 1980's at least, and it's been getting progressively more challenging. But since Harper got his majority, it's looking like it's gone from bad to impossible, and a lot of research labs are now looking at shutting down entirely.





bryanc said:


> This is a crucial point. We can almost never correctly predict what the value of research will be, or even when that value will be obtained. However, discoveries made by researchers almost always turn out to be valuable, even if it takes decades and their value can only be seen in hindsight and in conjunction with many other discoveries.
> 
> So cutting Canada's already paltry spending on basic science research is a purely ideologically driven decision to twist the knife in the backs of a small constituency that has been vocally critical of Harper's leadership.





i-rui said:


> often times it is :
> 
> Tories shut down 'groundbreaking' freshwater research station - The Globe and Mail


The federal government is only one source of funding for research and as I said they are in no way obliged to do so... Scientists are supposed to be a clever bunch so why not instead of spending time and energy belly aching about a given government's lack of funding, spend that time and energy fund raising from other sources...

It reminds me of many artists that I have known who complain and lobby about the lack of funding available from the Canada Council for the Arts... if they put the same amount of time energy into finding alternative funding they would undoubtedly be further ahead.

Also why should the government be in the business of backing esoteric pursuits of either a scientific or cultural nature, that *might* or *might no*t pay off in some unknown distant future?

Due to your self interested position you think it is a worthwhile bet... but these are public dollars and millions and millions of people would undoubtedly disagree with you as to whether or not that money is being well spent given other countess public policy issues that could use the money. 

If you think basic research is a worthwhile bet, go out and find other like minded private individuals to fund your research.

IMO many scientists and artists have an attitude of entitlement that radiates down from their ivory towers onto the cowering ignorant masses who just aren't qualified to know or judge the "vast riches" that they bestow upon the rest of society. 

The stench of arrogance and self importance can be nauseating at times.


----------



## groovetube

Well that was an incredibly harsh, and unfounded post in my opinion. Clearly, you need to walk a mile in an artists shoes to see how incredibly shortsighted that post was. Speaking as someone very well connected in the community of hard working and many successful artists, we do NOT have a sense of entitlement at all, and would take great offence to anyone suggesting this given how hard many work, and the sacrifices we make and have made.

That's just for starters.

As far as 'millions of people' who would be against funding scientists to research our air, water, environment, and health, well, that's false. As a tax payer in this country, I expect my government to fund these things with my money, for my benefit. As I already said, I would rather the money go here, than the many boondoggles of billions I see going to corporations and things that do NOT benefit me or my fellow citizens.

I can see though that the corporations who are affected by research that finds that their activities are bad for people who live and pay taxes in this country, would rather see that money go, somewhere else. I see the actions of this government as being very slanted towards covering up any evidence of ill effects of these corporations to our land air and water, and this is a grave concern to those who live in this country. That's my opinion.


screature said:


> IMO many scientists and artists have an attitude of entitlement that radiates down from their ivory towers onto the cowering ignorant masses who just aren't qualified to know or judge the "vast riches" that they bestow upon the rest of society.
> 
> *The stench of arrogance and self importance can be nauseating at times.*



Whoa... I don't think that singling out bryanc as a scientist who has everything to gain from funding is a worthwhile argument, and seems to me a bit personal don't you think?


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> It reminds me of many artists that I have known who complain and lobby about the lack of funding available from the Canada Council for the Arts... if they put the same amount of time energy into finding alternative funding they would undoubtedly be further ahead.


This from the guy who has spent 22 years trying to figure out how to balance a creative life and the responsibilities of life and has who has not yet found a satisfying solution?

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else...job-responsibilities-stuff-3.html#post1164334


----------



## i-rui

Hilarious, but not even worth a response IMO.

Anyways, this is a few days old, but I didn't see it posted here:

Environmental watchdog worried about rise of fracking - Canada - CBC News

More negligence by Harper on our enviroment. Ticking time bomb, and unfortunately it'll take a disaster before we see any tangible action.


----------



## Macfury

I am very grateful about the rise of fracking. It will make North America energy-independent.


----------



## i-rui

The headline is a bit misleading since the report was on several areas, but regarding fracking, the point the commissioner was making was the government has no clue what chemicals these companies are using in the fracking process and if they pose any danger.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> The headline is a bit misleading since the report was on several areas, but regarding fracking, the point the commissioner was making was the government has no clue what chemicals these companies are using in the fracking process and if they pose any danger.


I've read quite a bit on this as well, it's very disturbing what's going on with fracking. I'm all for energy independence, but this seems incredibly horrific for anyone near this.


----------



## kps

*Here, have your say:*

Your Voice: On The Issues | Conservative Party of Canada


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> The headline is a bit misleading since the report was on several areas, but regarding fracking, the point the commissioner was making was the government has no clue what chemicals these companies are using in the fracking process and if they pose any danger.


I actually do. Have been studying it for quite some time. However, the type of fluid can change from wellbore to wellbore. You are right that the list of allowable fluids needs to be defined--one simply can't allow frqackers to mix up their own cocktails at will. 

Most of the fracking fluid comes back out of the wellbore after the well has been fracked. The cost of transporting fluid from wellbore to welllbore is so great that the fluid is purified and then sent back down the next well. It's a case where economic necessity keeps them honest.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> *Here, have your say:*
> 
> Your Voice: On The Issues | Conservative Party of Canada


The questions are hilarious.



> Do you support our move to scrap the wasteful and ineffective Long-Gun Registry?


Why yes I would support anything that is wasteful and ineffective 



> Do you support our tough on crime agenda?


Naw, let'em all run rampant committing crimes!

:lmao:

You gotta admit that's pretty funny though.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> You are right that the list of allowable fluids needs to be defined--one simply can't allow frqackers to mix up their own cocktails at will.


So I guess we both agree that this can be a problem. From what I understand many of the companies won't reveal which exact chemicals are used because they claim they are trade secrets. Obviously this should not be allowed to stand.

The other main issue from the commissioner's report was that offshore oil spills or leaks are only liable for $30-$40 million of coverage should a disaster happen. considering that the cost of cleanups can run into the billions, Canadian tax payers could be on the hook for any balance until this is rectified.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> So I guess we both agree that this can be a problem. From what I understand many of the companies won't reveal which exact chemicals are used because they claim they are trade secrets. Obviously this should not be allowed to stand.
> 
> The other main issue from the commissioner's report was that offshore oil spills or leaks are only liable for $30-$40 million of coverage should a disaster happen. considering that the cost of cleanups can run into the billions, Canadian tax payers could be on the hook for any balance until this is rectified.


i-rui, we're in complete agreement here. The trade secret in most cases is the surfactant they place inside the water to make it more slippery. That allows it to flow into the crevices more quickly. However, they simply shouldn't have _carte blanche_. They need to register their formula with an environmental agency for approval before fracking.

I also agree that a spill should be compensated by the barrel spilled, with no top limit. If that bankrupts the company, so be it. If your economic case for building a pipeline does not cover the cost of compensation for a large spill, then the pipeline is not economically viable and should not be built.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


>


:clap::clap::clap::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

I'm certain Mike Duffy is real.


----------



## iMouse

Looks like Elmer Fudd to me. ???

And Megan Follows is much cuter too.

UP THE GINGERS!!!!


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> This from the guy who has spent 22 years trying to figure out how to balance a creative life and the responsibilities of life and has who has not yet found a satisfying solution?
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else...job-responsibilities-stuff-3.html#post1164334


Yeah so? What's your point? It's hard. What I did say is:



> Oh boy!!! This is a HUGE topic with which I have had much personal experience (I often dream about it) it isn't easy and I have no answers as I have been trying to figure it out for 22 years...
> 
> My experience is my own and I am not satisfied with it thus far... dreams die hard...
> 
> *But I made my bed and I shall lie in it...*


Notice I didn't suggest a handout from the government was the solution now did I.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Yeah so? What's your point? It's hard. What I did say is:
> 
> Notice I didn't suggest a handout from the government was the solution now did I.


I just do what I need to do to make my goals a reality. The idea of asking for money from the government so I can proceed is abhorrent to me.


----------



## groovetube

Which is what, exactly?

As someone who has had a successful career in the arts without handouts, (though a couple times in decades of work I've been hired on a project that was in a small part funded by factor, something fairly self sufficient which is a far cry from a "handout"), and as someone who has run a business, I can tell you it is far, far easier for someone with a business to look for a government handout, than as an artist by a huge margin, and that isn't because it's a more guaranteed money maker, that's for sure. (note: before any other insinuations are made from someone, my business has been funded by my hard work-a-holic sweat -only-...)

I can only imagine the the ease of big corporations, many of who already make billions in profits, to get huge sums of handouts. So, I don't see why the need for such animosity and the blanketing of 'government handout' fiends, or the assertion that these sorts of handouts would make or break someone's career. If one really was in such a position to 'get there' in the first place, a grant or a loan really makes it easier to perhaps capitalize on an opportunity quicker with a bigger return. 

This idea that some government handout (often for artists it's a loan btw) would make or break someone's talent and success is absurd.

Though certainly, if anyone has tried to compete with the budgets of the Americans, some help is very welcome.

Why do you think many artists head stateside?


----------



## CubaMark

*PEI Senator Mike Duffy uses Ontario health card, raising new residency questions*



> Senator Mike Duffy has continued using an Ontario health card since he was appointed to the Senate in 2009 despite professing to be a resident of Prince Edward Island, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> The Ontario Health Insurance Plan requires eligible cardholders to have their primary residence in Ontario, while the Senate requires members to live in the province they represent. This apparent discrepancy raises further questions about where the Conservative senator calls home, an issue at the heart of a controversy about Mr. Duffy’s residency claims and his housing allowance.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *PEI Senator Mike Duffy uses Ontario health card, raising new residency questions*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


Late to the dance again, CM?



> The 66-year-old senator, who recently applied for a PEI health card, had open-heart surgery in 2006, and his care team is at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute. Mr. Duffy, at the time of his appointment in 2009, was concerned that if he began paying taxes in PEI and using its health-insurance program, he would be forced to seek treatment elsewhere...


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> *PEI Senator Mike Duffy uses Ontario health card, raising new residency questions*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


I saw that *new* headline today. (Published Saturday, Feb. 09 2013, 8:00 AM EST, pay no mind to the usual diversion...) This adds to the already dodgy story coming out of Duffy.


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> Looks like Elmer Fudd to me. ???
> 
> And Megan Follows is much cuter too.
> 
> UP THE GINGERS!!!!


WHAT! What are you intending to do to the gingers? As a recovering ginger your statement made me a tad nervous.


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *PEI Senator Mike Duffy uses Ontario health card, raising new residency questions*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)





groovetube said:


> I saw that *new* headline today. This adds to the already dodgy story coming out of Duffy.


Will the lame stream press *ever* start to ask the really important question; why does PM Harper always have such catastrophically poor judgement with the people that surround him and his appointments to position of power?


----------



## SINC

I've never really thought about a senator appointed by any PM as holding a position of power. I think of it more as a position of pork.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> I've never really thought about a senator appointed by any PM as holding a position of power. I think of it more as a position of pork.


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Now, let's abolish the Senate ............. and the GG position as well. Not going to happen, but it's a nice thought. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

no argument from regarding the pork. 

But I think for checks and balances, it should be at the minimum, an elected senate.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I've never really thought about a senator appointed by any PM as holding a position of power. I think of it more as a position of pork.


Well when the Senators defeated something passed unanimously by the House of Commons, defeating the will of the Elected House, I would call that powerful.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> :clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Now, let's abolish the Senate ............. and the GG position as well. Not going to happen, but it's a nice thought. Paix, mon ami.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> WHAT! What are you intending to do to the gingers?


UP THE GINGERS, as in UP THE ENGLISH, my dear man.



BigDL said:


> As a recovering ginger your statement made me a tad nervous.


Recovering? Have you joined The Hair Club for Men?



Dr.G. said:


> Now, let's abolish the Senate ............. and the GG position as well.


Elephants have a place to go to die. Why not political hacks?


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> Recovering? Have you joined The Hair Club for


I'm more melanin challenged and not so much folliclly challenged.


----------



## speckledmind

:d


----------



## iMouse

OK Bespeckled One, but you must realize that it's going to get pretty dry around here.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> The federal government is only one source of funding for research and as I said they are in no way obliged to do so... Scientists are supposed to be a clever bunch so why not instead of spending time and energy belly aching about a given government's lack of funding, spend that time and energy fund raising from other sources...
> 
> Also why should the government be in the business of backing esoteric pursuits of either a scientific or cultural nature, that *might* or *might no*t pay off in some unknown distant future?
> 
> If you think basic research is a worthwhile bet, go out and find other like minded private individuals to fund your research.
> 
> The stench of arrogance and self importance can be nauseating at times.


This fundamentally comes down to the issue of wether we, as a society, are going to do basic scientific research or not. Industry will not, and cannot be expected to fund basic research, as it is far too risky in terms of ROI unless you do it on a massive scale that requires the investment of billions. Back in the renaissance, there was still enough 'low hanging fruit' that wealthy organizations could realistically fund meaningful research; but even then it was rarely profitable in the short term. The costs, both in terms of money and time, of doing science are now so high, and it's practically impossible to predict where the "useful" discoveries will come from, so science has become a globalized, internationally distributed endeavour, funded almost exclusively by national agencies (there are state and provincial level funding agencies in wealthy jurisdictions, but the federal governments of developed countries represent the vast majority of all research funding on earth). No one in their right mind does science because it's going to solve a specific problem or make money; despite the fact that it invariably solves problems and generates great wealth. You just can't predict where the ROI will come from.

Science is so different from profit-motivated business that it does not surprise me that it seems incomprehensible to non-academics. I can also understand that people outside of the research culture might feel that scientists complaining of reduced research budgets is self-interested or self-important... You'd have to know that most researchers work 70+ hours per week, have sacrificed enormously to obtain their positions, and are not personally benefiting from any of these expenditures (almost any researcher in the basic sciences, myself included, could be making far more in industry... but then we wouldn't be doing basic research, we'd be generating revenue for some corporation, and some of us just aren't that interested in money). Furthermore, it's worth recognizing that Canada spends proportionately less of it's GDP on science than any of the other G8, or even G20 countries, and our researchers are known world wide for doing excellent work on a shoe-string budget.

When you have a world-class research community that is already functioning on a budget that has been cut almost every year since the mid-70's and now represents a tiny fraction of a percent of the federal budget, you don't cut it further except for ideological reasons. I understand that Harper hates science, and I fully expected these sorts of cuts; I just think it's worth trying to draw some attention to them, because I don't think the majority of Canadians agree with them.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> The costs, both in terms of money and time, of doing science are now so high, and it's practically impossible to predict where the "useful" discoveries will come from, so science has become a globalized, internationally distributed endeavour, funded almost exclusively by national agencies (there are state and provincial level funding agencies in wealthy jurisdictions, but the federal governments of developed countries represent the vast majority of all research funding on earth).


I believe that there is a certain subset of scientific research that could reasonably be carried out by groups contracted to the federal or provincial governments in the service of various government functions, from a policy perspective.

Said research should be contracted out to private firms and universities. 



bryanc said:


> No one in their right mind does science because it's going to solve a specific problem or make money....


That is simply wrong. Some people in their right mind pursue science for just that reason.



bryanc said:


> ...despite the fact that it invariably solves problems and generates great wealth.


This is not a good argument favouring _carte blanche_ for all research endeavours. The notion that one _might_ discover a cure for cancer if _any _research were funded to the fullest extent of research applications is not a good argument for unlimited or even increased funding.



bryanc said:


> ...despite the fact that it invariably solves problems and generates great wealth.


It's a pretty safe bet to say the answer on ROI is "nowhere" for most research. It's the nature of the business.



bryanc said:


> Science is so different from profit-motivated business that it does not surprise me that it seems incomprehensible to non-academics. I can also understand that people outside of the research culture might feel that scientists complaining of reduced research budgets is self-interested or self-important... You'd have to know that most researchers work 70+ hours per week, have sacrificed enormously to obtain their positions, and are not personally benefiting from any of these expenditures (almost any researcher in the basic sciences, myself included, could be making far more in industry... but then we wouldn't be doing basic research, we'd be generating revenue for some corporation, and some of us just aren't that interested in money).


Personal choice. Not anyone else's concern on how people choose to spend their adult working lives. A good comparison: how much do you care whether a clergyman or priest spends 70+ hours a week in their line of work? Or an accountant?



bryanc said:


> Furthermore, it's worth recognizing that Canada spends proportionately less of it's GDP on science than any of the other G8, or even G20 countries, and our researchers are known world wide for doing excellent work on a shoe-string budget.


Then it looks like the policy is paying off. Excellent work on a shoestring budget.



bryanc said:


> I understand that Harper hates science, and I fully expected these sorts of cuts; I just think it's worth trying to draw some attention to them, because I don't think the majority of Canadians agree with them.


This is a false premise. You don't know that he hates science, All you know is that the federal government has cut the funding for programs.



bryanc said:


> I just think it's worth trying to draw some attention to them, because I don't think the majority of Canadians agree with them.


Right on! I suggest that researchers simply take their research endeavours directly to the Canadian people. Ask them to fund the projects directly through PayPal and credit card payments and allow the research to continue, free from government meddling. In the new world of the Internet, this all becomes possible.


----------



## groovetube

Why would I fund research with more money through paypal, when I already pay enough taxes to do this very thing?

This sounds like quite the tax hike to me!


----------



## i-rui

why aren't fighter jets and oil sand subsidies made via paypal?

might as well make those corporate tax breaks via paypal too.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> why aren't fighter jets and oil sand subsidies made via paypal?
> 
> might as well make those corporate tax breaks via paypal too.


For anything beyond basic deductions of business costs, the oilsands should also work that way.

I would argue that one legitimate function of government is to secure its own borders. I would want some way to ensure that this had been achieved before PayPal kicked in. Beyond that, why not allow a special jet fighter program to be funded by donations? Sounds good to me!


----------



## groovetube

So, what would be the benefit of being the ones who donate the most? Their own militias? Hmm...

I suspect a plan like this is doomed right from the get go.


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> OK Bespeckled One, but you must realize that it's going to get pretty dry around here.


Sorry to interrupt.

What was the offending issue? The colour of a root vegetable as applied to a hair shade? Ginger sounds much nicer and more correct than another root vegetable. BTY the top of a carrot is green FYI. beejacon

Please carry on.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I would argue that one legitimate function of government is to secure its own borders.


If that's all modern governments did, we'd live in a society like ancient Egypt.

Despite the various setbacks, civilization has progressed from ancient times, and the governments of developed countries invest in shared infrastructure, protect citizens rights (including rights to healthcare, clean water and air, education, etc.), fund basic research (because profit-driven corporations will not do so, and private citizens cannot be expected to develop the esoteric expertise necessary to distinguish well-designed proposals from poorly conceived proposals), support the arts and culture (again, because the private sector and the general public have a poor record of doing so), and many other things, chief among which is the regulation of the economy (as it is abundantly clear that the free market, like evolution, has no goal and no inherent tendency to make things better). Unfortunately, our current government has largely abdicated it's responsibility to govern in the interests of Canadian citizens, in favour of governing in the interest of corporate donors.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> Beyond that, why not allow a special jet fighter program to be funded by donations?
> 
> Sounds good to me!


Sure it does.

It sounds just like the model for Wintario, benefiting health care in Ontario.

Before it was raped by the government of the day.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If that's all modern governments did, we'd live in a society like ancient Egypt.


I said it was ONE function.



bryanc said:


> Despite the various setbacks, civilization has progressed from ancient times, and the governments of developed countries invest in shared infrastructure, protect citizens rights (including rights to healthcare, clean water and air, education, etc.), fund basic research (because profit-driven corporations will not do so....


That is YOUR wish list bryanc, not mine! If the public has a poor record of supporting various areas of research and the arts, it's because they choose not to do so! That's democracy at its finest!



bryanc said:


> ...and private citizens cannot be expected to develop the esoteric expertise necessary to distinguish well-designed proposals from poorly conceived proposals), support the arts and culture (again, because the private sector and the general public have a poor record of doing so),...


They will certainly not achieve the level of maturity to do so, if their intellectual capacity is consistently beaten down by a nanny state making decisions for them. However, I have seen a tendency in the left to completely undervalue the intelligence of the average citizen, seeing them as mere wards of the state.



bryanc said:


> ...chief among which is the regulation of the economy (as it is abundantly clear that the free market, like evolution, has no goal and no inherent tendency to make things better).


None of what you are saying is "abundantly clear." It is just your opinion. However, the activities of a free people should not simply be harnessed to make things better for you.



bryanc said:


> Unfortunately, our current government has largely abdicated it's responsibility to govern in the interests of Canadian citizens, in favour of governing in the interest of corporate donors.


In favour of more freedom. And I thank them for it.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> If that's all modern governments did, we'd live in a society like ancient Egypt.
> 
> Despite the various setbacks, civilization has progressed from ancient times, and the governments of developed countries invest in shared infrastructure, protect citizens rights (including rights to healthcare, clean water and air, education, etc.), fund basic research (because profit-driven corporations will not do so, and private citizens cannot be expected to develop the esoteric expertise necessary to distinguish well-designed proposals from poorly conceived proposals), support the arts and culture (again, because the private sector and the general public have a poor record of doing so), and many other things, chief among which is the regulation of the economy (as it is abundantly clear that the free market, like evolution, has no goal and no inherent tendency to make things better). Unfortunately, our current government has largely abdicated it's responsibility to govern in the interests of Canadian citizens, in favour of governing in the interest of corporate donors.


Exactly. For years we've been sold on this idea that somehow, handing power from an elected government, to unelected private interests, which have no interest in the Canadian people really whatsoever, is freedom. Canadian citizens can no longer have a say or any control through whom is in 'power' through elections.

This is the complete opposite of freedom.


----------



## mlmummert

i-rui said:


> why aren't fighter jets and oil sand subsidies made via paypal?
> 
> might as well make those corporate tax breaks via paypal too.


Corporate welfare is too much for Paypal... I forget what the dollar limit is.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

Stinging criticism of F-35 process removed from parliamentary probe | CTV News

Well so much for the possible "lessons learned".


----------



## iMouse

We got that from the gas plant fiasco.

Learning of the flaws of the past was just too expensive for the latest toady.

Being in Government is never having to say your sorry.


----------



## eMacMan

*Bill C30 dead (for now)*

A small victory!

Originally introduced by the Liberals, then the minority Cons, C-30 was almost identical to the previous freedom fighting efforts.

While I do congratulate the Cons for very reluctantly doing the right thing, I have to ask what on earth took you so long? And how long can Canadians relax before next revised in name only version is introduced?

Bill C-30: Tories kill controversial Internet surveillance bill | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post



> OTTAWA — The Conservative government has abandoned its controversial and much-maligned Internet surveillance bill, legislation it once claimed was crucial to stopping child pornographers.
> 
> Less than a year ago support for Bill C-30, the so-called Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act, was presented to Canadians by the government as a binary choice.
> 
> 
> “He can either stand with us or stand with the child pornographers,” Public Safety Minister Vic Toews scolded a Liberal critic in the House of Commons last February.
> 
> 
> The comment set off a public fire storm concerning the Internet and personal privacy — a nasty fight that resulted in unsavoury details of Toews’ divorce being splashed across the web by a Liberal party operative.
> 
> 
> Toews, who introduced the legislation, did not attend Monday’s news conference where Justice Minister Rob Nicholson said Bill C-30 is dead.
> .....


----------



## kps

I'm cross-posting this with the Religious thread because it belongs in both.

Interesting Hypocricy:

Church and state : Prime time : with Lilly and Giambroni


----------



## groovetube

Dear god. Brian Lilley is a Canadian super-lame version of Glenn Beck. He's so lame that it's almost a waste to mock him the way it's fun to bust a gut over Beck sheer lunacy.

He's somehow managed to take this topic, and twist it around for the general Sun News audience. It's hard to take more than a minute of this total idiot.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Dear god. Brian Lilley is a Canadian super-lame version of Glenn Beck. He's so lame that it's almost a waste to mock him the way it's fun to bust a gut over Beck sheer lunacy.
> 
> He's somehow managed to take this topic, and twist it around for the general Sun News audience. It's hard to take more than a minute of this total idiot.


Ha,ha I gather you're a Gianboner fan?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Ha,ha I gather you're a Gianboner fan?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


not by a long shot. But even the likes of 'gianboner' can poke holes in idiot Lilly.

That's not saying very much. :lmao:


----------



## bryanc

Wow, what epic lameness... I could only tolerate about 2 minutes. Who is this pin-head? And perhaps more interestingly, who does his hair?


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> I'm cross-posting this with the Religious thread because it belongs in both.
> 
> Interesting Hypocricy:
> 
> Church and state : Prime time : with Lilly and Giambroni


speaking of "Interesting Hypocrisy" :

Despite the irony in Sun TV

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

I'll sit on the oil for 4 years until the idiot is gone, then wait for the Republican who gets his job to approve Keystone XL *without* any conditions...

The price of Keystone may be a carbon tax



> Hello Canada! Are you ready — ready for a new national tax on carbon that will ding pocketbooks across the country? My bet is that a new carbon tax is coming, made almost inevitable by Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s full-bore push to secure Washington’s approval of the Keystone XL pipeline.


Contact your MP, contact Harper, contact anybody, & tell them a carbon tax is unacceptable under any circumstances.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Contact your MP, contact Harper, contact anybody, & tell them a carbon tax is unacceptable under any circumstances.


 I've contacted my MP already.


----------



## groovetube

this seems along the same theme as "irony" :lmao:


----------



## kps

Lilly is right on the money, he pwnd Giambroni, love how you lefties start circling the wagons and attack the man...eh bryanc, you a hairdresser or something?


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> speaking of "Interesting Hypocrisy" :
> 
> Despite the irony in Sun TV


I don't think it's all that funny, ironic perhaps, but not funny. Alternative to CBC and 96% Canadian content ---CNN, BBC. 0% Canadian content. For years and years the left has railed against foreign content on Canadian television ..especially the NDP and now it's funny because it's a "conservative" leaning news network? Shameful hypocrisy.

More power to them --I signed the CRTC petition, so there.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> I'm cross-posting this with the Religious thread because it belongs in both.
> 
> Interesting Hypocricy:
> 
> Church and state : Prime time : with Lilly and Giambroni


What a crock of misrepresentations and foolishness. If this is where people are acquiring opinions from their primary source of information, it is little wonder, the conversations on this board go nowhere, fast.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Lilly is right on the money, he pwnd Giambroni, love how you lefties start circling the wagons and attack the man...eh bryanc, you a hairdresser or something?


he didn't pwn him, he simply played to the stupidity of his audience. Lilly is well noted for this.

There is a topic somewhere in there, one worth addressing and it looked as though Giambroni was just laughing at Lilly for the drama sideshow he putting on.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> he didn't pwn him, he simply played to the stupidity of his audience. Lilly is well noted for this.
> 
> There is a topic somewhere in there, one worth addressing and it looked as though Giambroni was just laughing at Lilly for the drama sideshow he putting on.


Sure he laughed...because he couldn't answer him. Was it a show, sure but tell me why would Gianboner even go on with Lilli? Ah, a prop? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Sure he laughed...because he couldn't answer him. Was it a show, sure but tell me why would Gianboner even go on with Lilli? Ah, a prop? :lmao:


I don't know. But seriously, that segment couldn't even pass for comedy it's so sad.

As I said, there's a topic somewhere in there that could be debated, but Lilly is just a class A idiot. I've seen some real beauties from that drama clown.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I don't know. But seriously, that segment couldn't even pass for comedy it's so sad.
> 
> As I said, there's a topic somewhere in there that could be debated, but Lilly is just a class A idiot. I've seen some real beauties from that drama clown.


Oh yeah? Didn't know you watch SunTV. I've seen some real good pieces from him actually --like our current battle with Supt. Whyatt the Ont. CFO. To me he's a commentator, those are opinion pieces but he does deal with real issues also. Anyway he's not my only source of news but I like having an alternative without being judgemental and calling him an idiot.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Oh yeah? Didn't know you watch SunTV. I've seen some real good pieces from him actually --like our current battle with Supt. Whyatt the Ont. CFO. To me he's a commentator, those are opinion pieces but he does deal with real issues also. Anyway he's not my only source of news but I like having an alternative without being judgemental and calling him an idiot.


I base my opinion of him on his past of some real nonsense. And yes, I do watch it sometimes, if only in fascination of watching a slo-mo car crash. Even some conservatives I know (a few here to if I recall) won't even consider them a decent news source. His sometimes almost embarrassing news segment, his hilariously embarrassing tweet wars, I donno. There -has- to be a better conservative news source than that. I think he is, an idiot. For good reason.


----------



## groovetube

Watch the Canadian Parliament Hilariously Debate the Zombie Apocalypse

Look now we're famous outside of Canada for this!


----------



## BigDL

*Our Glorious Leader looking for a Minister*

John Duncun resigns from cabinet for writing a letter on behalf of a constituent to tax court.

Where have we heard of this lately? Who was it again? Which quasi-judicial board did the Minister recommending a constituent for a licence?

Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan resigns from cabinet - Politics - CBC News


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> John Duncun resigns from cabinet for writing a letter on behalf of a constituent to tax court.
> 
> Where have we heard of this lately? Who was it again? Which quasi-judicial board did the Minister recommending a constituent for a licence?
> 
> Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan resigns from cabinet - Politics - CBC News


I have met John Duncan and he is a good and kind man always looking to try and help others and it was probably that tendency that led to his overstepping the bounds of propriety.

He did the Honourable thing and resigned from his Ministry.


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> Where have we heard of this lately? Who was it again? Which quasi-judicial board did the Minister recommending a constituent for a licence?


That would be Durham Region's very own James Michael Flaherty, BA, LLB. :lmao:


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> John Duncun resigns from cabinet for writing a letter on behalf of a constituent to tax court.
> 
> Where have we heard of this lately? Who was it again? Which quasi-judicial board did the Minister recommending a constituent for a licence?
> 
> Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan resigns from cabinet - Politics - CBC News





iMouse said:


> That would be Durham Region's very own James Michael Flaherty, BA, LLB. :lmao:


This is a done deal and the Ethics Commissioner is satisfied and sees no need for a further inquiry.


----------



## iMouse

That link doesn't stipulate which piece of paper he used, unlike Jim. 

If he just used his MR letterhead I see no reason for him to resign from Cabinet.

It also doesn't say if this was for a constituent, or someone outside his riding. That is mportant, IMO.

For Jim, if anyone in the CRTC does not know that he also represents Durham Region they should be fired.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> That link doesn't stipulate which piece of paper he used, unlike Jim.
> 
> If he just used his MR letterhead I see no reason for him to resign from Cabinet.
> 
> It also doesn't say if this was for a constituent, or someone outside his riding. That important, IMO.
> 
> *For Jim, if anyone in the CRTC does not know that he also represents Durham Region they should be fired.*


Exactly, and I said a similar thing in a previous post on the subject.


----------



## iMouse

If I want Jim to go to bat for me, a constituent, he better damn well be able to, without rebuke.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> If I want Jim to go to bat for me, a constituent, he better damn well be able to, without rebuke.


Hear, hear.


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> That link doesn't stipulate which piece of paper he used, unlike Jim.
> 
> If he just used his MR letterhead I see no reason for him to resign from Cabinet.
> 
> It also doesn't say if this was for a constituent, or someone outside his riding. That is mportant, IMO.
> 
> For Jim, if anyone in the CRTC does not know that he also represents Durham Region they should be fired.


Apparently it was for a constituent, as Duncun's press release says


John Duncun's Press Release said:


> “In june of 2011 I wrote a character reference letter to the Tax Court of Canada on behalf of an individual to whom my constituency staff was providing casework assistance on a Canada revenue Agency matter…”


The press release can be viewed here Duncan Statement

Whether the letter was written on Ministerial letter head or constituency letter head it doesn't matter. You can't split yourself into pieces and neither can John Duncun or Jim Flaherty for that matter.

The rules say it a no, no for Minister to contact a quasi-judiscial Federal Government organization period full stop.

John Duncun is smart enough and decent enough act responsibly, Jim Flaherty is a disgrace.

The Government of Our Glorious leader is a disgrace. This happened in 2011, the resignation only takes place 5 pm on a Friday before a week long break from Parliament.

Shameful Flaherty is still a Minister, shameful the government turns tail and runs in disgrace.


----------



## iMouse

So, I am now without representation, simply because His Royal Highness has tapped my MP for the Cabinet?

Screw that nonsense.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Apparently it was for a constituent, as Duncun's press release says
> 
> The press release can be viewed here Duncan Statement
> 
> Whether the letter was written on Ministerial letter head or constituency letter head it doesn't matter. You can't split yourself into pieces and neither can John Duncun or Jim Flaherty for that matter.
> 
> The rules say it a no, no for Minister to contact a quasi-judiscial Federal Government organization period full stop.
> 
> John Duncun is smart enough and decent enough act responsibly, Jim Flaherty is a disgrace.
> 
> The Government of Our Glorious leader is a disgrace. This happened in 2011, the resignation only takes place 5 pm on a Friday before a week long break from Parliament.
> 
> *Shameful Flaherty is still a Minister*, shameful the government turns tail and runs in disgrace.


The Ethics Commissioner, who is just a little more plugged into the reality of politics than you are and understands how mistakes can be made, has ruled. 

She chastised Flaherty and accepted his explanation, apology and commitment not to do the same in the future. She also ruled that no further inquiry is necessary.

If you doubt/disagree with the judgment of the Ethics Commissioner there are avenues of complaint that are much more effective than making a post on ehMac.[


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> So, I am now without representation, simply because His Royal Highness has tapped my MP for the Cabinet?
> 
> Screw that nonsense.


Actually the irony is now that Duncan isn't a Minster you have potentially *greater* representation. 

Fancy that. 

Great system of government that we have isn't it...


----------



## iMouse

You read me wrong.

Flaherty is my Minister, and I agree with the ethics commissioner on her decision.

I can't speak to the Duncan issue, because I don't have all the facts, and now that he has resigned he is exempt from her scrutiny. 

Cute, eh?


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> *You read me wrong.*
> 
> Flaherty is my Minister, and *I agree with the ethics commissioner on her decision.*
> 
> I can't speak to the Duncan issue, because I don't have all the facts, and *now that he has resigned he is exempt from her scrutiny. *
> 
> Cute, eh?


Yes sorry I got the posts mixed up in a blender...

I did understand that Flaherty is your MP though...

As do I.

However, Duncan is not free from the scrutiny of the Ethics Commissioner now that he is a back bencher. All MPs, including opposition MPs, are subject to the scrutiny of the Ethics Commissioner.


----------



## dona83

Ok, time for a but of comic relief. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBZuZAoglE[/ame]


----------



## Rps

So the Toronto Star published a story today about this:


It’s time to rethink the blimp, a House of Commons committee suggests in a new report.
Airships are often associated with the Hindenburg crash of the 1930s, and their development was overtaken by that of the airplane, reducing their use in recent years mostly to props in ad campaigns.
But there’s room for certain kinds of them to play a new role in Canada, especially when it comes to reaching remote communities in the North, the transportation committee recommended in a recently released report.

So the government is looking at sending blimps to the north......same week they're looking at Senator Duffy's expenses.......there's a joke there somewhere.


----------



## groovetube

Surveys suggest Canadians growing weary of ads for Economic Action Plan | CTV News

With the incredible amount of millions wasted on this year after year, I'd say Harper and co have almost redefined the term... "adscam".


----------



## BigDL

Remember the money is not missing, it was spent on the intended purpose, it sure was wasted, but that's another problem.


----------



## kps

My tax dollars at work again....but it is funny





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Saw that.

Somehow there's an irony in everyone getting upset over a few hundred thousand dollars overspent by senators, while we stand by and watch our government overspend, and/or misappropriate hundreds of millions.

Perhaps the bar has been set so low by previous governments, and politicians know that Canadians will sleepwalk through most of it, with their ardent supporters valiantly defending all this outrageous spending somehow.

But I had thought, no, hoped, that we would get better this time around. Seems that is far form the case.


----------



## BigDL

What I would like to know is the name of the Member the dark haired tool sitting behind Pat Martin mining for gold? (about the :45 second mark of the video)


----------



## Kosh

Sounds like it's time for Alberta to introduce a PST.

Revenue shortfall pushes Alberta's financial situation from bad to worse - Yahoo! Finance Canada

Frankly, it sounds like the province has had some mismanagement over the last few years. Apparently the Alberta Heritage Fund or whatever it is called which they were supposed to be saving money in, they haven't been putting money in. Eventually when the oil runs out, they're going to be the poorest province, because they've spent all the money they made on oil. Not that the Feds are doing any better either with the money they make from oil/gas.


----------



## Dr.G.

Kosh said:


> Sounds like it's time for Alberta to introduce a PST.
> 
> Revenue shortfall pushes Alberta's financial situation from bad to worse - Yahoo! Finance Canada
> 
> Frankly, it sounds like the province has had some mismanagement over the last few years. Apparently the Alberta Heritage Fund or whatever it is called which they were supposed to be saving money in, they haven't been putting money in. Eventually when the oil runs out, they're going to be the poorest province, because they've spent all the money they made on oil. Not that the Feds are doing any better either with the money they make from oil/gas.


A sales tax in Alberta?!? My wife, born and raised in AB, says "Never!!! Death before dishonor."


----------



## SINC

Well, well now:

The Big Shift: Conservatives poised for decades of power in Ottawa | Canadian Politics


----------



## groovetube

Looks like someone is working it for a senate appointment.


----------



## MacDoc

From the National Pest no less ...must be true....

meanwhile outside of the rosy glasses world of the right wing...




> *Why the federal conservatives are falling in the polls:* Podcast ...
> www.thestar.com/.../2013/.../why_the_federal_conservatives_... - Canada3 days ago – Saturday, February 23, 2013. 9:31 PM ... Why the federal conservatives are falling in the polls: Podcast ... Frank Gunn / THE CANADIAN PRESS .


but some here seem to think that a majority gov't that 2/3 of the citizens detest = a mandate.










Just needs the OTHER idjits in federal politics to understand the concept of a coalition like other nations do and Harper et al will just be a bad dream exiting and the right wing will go back to blaming all the ills on the left instead of having to dodge the current well deserved brickbats for their foolish actions.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


>


As SINC said--that poll looks like another Conservative victory to me!


----------



## mrjimmy

Meanwhile, from the same paper on the same day:

Justin Trudeau could lead the Liberals to a majority government in next election, poll shows | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

'Exact science' doesn't really come to mind here.


----------



## MacDoc

> As SINC said--that poll looks like another Conservative victory to me!


no - it looks like a flawed democratic structure ...and is when the outcome can be a majority government with a 1/3 of the citizens voting for party in power.
But, like Herr Harper, you don't give a rat's ass about democratic principles or what the majority of Canadians want to see from their government.
Only that you can scam the system and declare victory......it's not a victory ....it's a scam.


----------



## groovetube

If anyone looks honestly at what this government is doing, the record spending, record deficits, huge tax cuts to corporations, fast tracking of approvals whizzing by any environmental etc concerns (there to protect the citizens of Canada...) also now we're starting to see the slow clamping down of the very people they're supposed to represent, the draconian EI crackdowns, erosions of benefits to Canadians, seniors, veterans, families still waiting for their tax cuts, the list is growing. This isn't going to end well for the conservatives. It just isn't.

WHile the cons may win another victory in 2015, if they did, I can guarantee, it'll be their last, for a very long time. The disaster they will leave will make what Mulroney left look mild in comparison, perhaps even Bush. I suspect most moderate conservatives know this. And that's quite telling.

How long will Ontario ( along with quebec) continue to allow Harper and co to run roughshod over them?

I think there's a reason why Hudak lost the last election so spectacularly...


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Well, well now:
> 
> The Big Shift: Conservatives poised for decades of power in Ottawa | Canadian Politics


A counterpoint:

Conservatives’ handling of Kevin Page makes them vulnerable in 2015 | Full Comment | National Post



> So Conservatives have a policy process that follows, rather than leads public opinion – cowardly perhaps, but a de facto inoculation against grand policy initiatives that put them offside of voters. And they face a divided opposition, with no end in sight. For Harper and his successors, as Bricker and Ibbitson conclude, this is a situation made in heaven.
> 
> Except for one factor, which should never be discounted: The loathe effect. This is what overtakes a government that becomes popularly despised, because of a common perception of entitlement, arrogance, duplicity, profligacy, waste – you get the picture. It is not then about policy, or even about a perception of administrative incompetence: It is about popular aversion to the visible, anti-democratic tendencies that progressively corrupt individuals who hold power.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> *From the National Pest* no less ...must be true....
> 
> meanwhile outside of the rosy glasses world of the right wing...
> 
> but some here seem to think that a majority gov't that 2/3 of the citizens detest = a mandate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just needs the OTHER idjits in federal politics to understand the concept of a coalition like other nations do and Harper et al will just be a bad dream exiting and the right wing will go back to blaming all the ills on the left instead of having to dodge the current well deserved brickbats for their foolish actions.


You make links to the Doyouwanna Star all the time and like gee who would have guessed they published another anti-government piece so please don't make it seem like your references are non-partisan... I mean seriously. 

Meanwhile in the real non-tinfoil hat wearing world life goes on...

EKOS! Seriously? You are going to try and pretend that ANYTHING that so called "research" firm produces is non-partisan..? Are you like Rumpelstiltskin and just woke up yesterday? Anything Frank Graves touches has the stink of Liberal money and partisanship all over it.


----------



## groovetube

the tor star is definitely not a fan of the conservatives, but the national post isn't exactly a hotbed of neutrality either. That NP article was quite funny in of itself. I wouldn't be surprised the cons win in 2015, but to call them the natural ruling party now, that's a stretch. I'd say neither of them are currently. That title is up for grabs it seems.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> the tor star is definitely not a fan of the conservatives, but *the national post isn't exactly a hotbed of neutrality either. *That NP article was quite funny in of itself. I wouldn't be surprised the cons win in 2015, but to call them the natural ruling party now, that's a stretch. I'd say neither of them are currently. That title is up for grabs it seems.


Agreed, but don't shoot down one source as being partisan when you have a favourite equally partisan source that you quote frequently (this is reference to MacDoc not you gt). It just comes across as hypocrisy, at least to me.

Both publications do have their fair share of syndicated columnists who simply speak their minds without any "overtly obvious" political leaning to one side or the other... they just call it like they see it. 

With the Star I think of Chantal Hebert and with the Post I think of John Ivison. Hebert is definitely more liberal and Ivison more conservative but they both take shots at their own "side" when they see them doing something that they think is just plain stupid.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> A counterpoint:
> 
> Conservatives’ handling of Kevin Page makes them vulnerable in 2015 | Full Comment | National Post


Interesting here:



> Here’s what’s odd about this: Consistently – whether on the true cost of the Afghan mission, on the state of the federal deficit, or on the F-35 jet procurement project – *Page’s cost projections have turned out to be right, whereas the government’s have turned out to be wrong. He has more than proven the value of the office to taxpayers,* in other words. The Conservatives created the PBO, as part of their 2006 Federal Accountability Act. Page’s success, though it has stung them politically, is therefore their success. Yet they refuse to own it. How can they be so shortsighted?


This sums up what I really dislike about the conservatives. And so should anyone concerned with budget and respect for tax payers. If they really, were concerned about spending our money as they let on to be.

Also as you quoted, the "loathe effect". Just wait until they need to cut more and more after slashing corporate tax rates, get, and then they need to make good on the promises of tax cuts to you know, real people like you and me.

Things are going to get real interesting very soon as we watch as they attempt to balance the books.

Cue, the "loathe factor". They better hope the 'left' doesn't split as much as they have.


----------



## SINC

I always care about budgets and taxpayer respect, but have little concern with the Conservatives at all. And nearly 40% of Canadians seem to see it the same way. :yawn:


----------



## groovetube

I'd wonder about anyone who isn't concerned our government was always wrong and Page was right, and the way that whole thing was handled.

And the majority of Canadians feel the same way. :baby:

See two can play that silly little game, though facts are on my side. The national post article mrjimmy posted is an interesting one.


----------



## SINC

Where's iMouse to continue the tirade? I thought you two are playing tag-team bullying towards several members here now?


----------



## groovetube

well you get points for trying.

I prefer to stay on topic thanks.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> well you get points for trying.
> 
> I prefer to stay on topic thanks.


:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

another derail. 

Look I'll simply leave for the day you can find someone else to badger.

Bye.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> I always care about budgets and taxpayer respect, but have little concern with the Conservatives at all. And nearly 40% of Canadians seem to see it the same way. :yawn:


Ahhh the man who believes in polls is a wise man indeed! 

They have never proven to be incorrect. They remain consistent. They never change from firm to firm. They never play to partisan politics to influence their results. If there was ever a sure bet it would be that one!


----------



## SINC

Au contraire. Polls change all the time. The likelihood they will change dramatically in favour of one party or another is traditionally slight though. A Liberal resurgence? Unlikely. Perhaps never if Trudeau gets the nod. An NPD win? Ditto without Jack. Mulcair has all the charisma of a man with a beard. Or so it appears.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Au contraire. Polls change all the time. The likelihood they will change dramatically in favour of one party or another is traditionally slight though. A Liberal resurgence? Unlikely. Perhaps never if Trudeau gets the nod. An NPD win? Ditto without Jack. Mulcair has all the charisma of a man with a beard. Or so it appears.


You know I was being sarcastic right?



> Perhaps never if Trudeau gets the nod.


Ah yes, another poll:

Justin Trudeau could lead the Liberals to a majority government in next election, poll shows | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

I wouldn't discount him just yet. Just wait until you see the increased attack from the Cons and NDP. It's already begun. You see the fear in their op-eds and hear it in their attack ads.

I hear he's drafting a follow up to the NEP!


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> You know I was being sarcastic right?
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, another poll:
> 
> Justin Trudeau could lead the Liberals to a majority government in next election, poll shows | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> I wouldn't discount him just yet. Just wait until you see the increased attack from the Cons and NDP. It's already begun. You see the fear in their op-eds and hear it in their attack ads.
> 
> I hear he's drafting a follow up to the NEP!


Some might discount him, but you can bet the cons sure aren't. I bet they are already spending serious cash getting ready to take him down as hard as they can. They likely figure the ndp will never form a government really so as long as they're not a real threat, they'll simply serve as the vote splitters.

Though here in Ontario, I recall waking up to a shocker of a new ndp government here


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Some might discount him, but you can bet the cons sure aren't. I bet they are already spending serious cash getting ready to take him down as hard as they can. They likely figure the ndp will never form a government really so as long as they're not a real threat, they'll simply serve as the vote splitters.
> 
> Though here in Ontario, I recall waking up to a shocker of a new ndp government here


I truly believe he will be a force to reckon with. And you are right, the tricks to undermine him will be the dirtiest, which will galvanize his support even further. 

He is the anti-Harper. This is a true feather in his cap. Doesn't hurt that he beat the tar out of Steve's friend Patrick 'the domestic abuser' Brazeau either.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> I truly believe he will be a force to reckon with. And you are right, the tricks to undermine him will be the dirtiest, which will galvanize his support even further.
> 
> He is the anti-Harper. This is a true feather in his cap.* Doesn't hurt that he beat the tar out of Steve's friend Patrick 'the domestic abuser' Brazeau either.*


yeah that was quite the disappointment for some. :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

SINC said:


> Where's iMouse to continue the tirade? I thought you two are playing tag-team bullying towards several members here now?


I've finally started using the Ignore function.

Don't make me use it on YOU!!! :lmao:


----------



## bryanc

.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> .


Little Man Syndrome at its finest.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> .


:clap:

bingo! Not something people I see holding their fists at the government wants to hear!


----------



## groovetube

Tories set 'targets,' not quotas for EI fraud - Canada - CBC News

The big shakedown is beginning. The tories are looking for ways to balance the budget after spending their faces off and cutting corp taxes (which did nothing). "targets", not quotas eh? lol.

First, create the boogieman, hiss about 'frauds', then shake down the public. We've seen this righteous right playbook in action before. The supporters all line up and cheer.


----------



## groovetube

seems rather quiet about this big shakedown. I find it rather amazing that while our government, who are supposed to be such great economic stewards, spending an alarming amount of millions on showering things on their ridings, massive ad campaigns to advertise the party, er, inform people of government services (yeah that's it!), but now we're sending out the 'fuzz' on apparently, possible ie fraud. With quotas to find it. Somewhere.

And then there's this little headache. Arthur Porter, former spy watchdog, wanted for alleged fraud | Full Comment | National Post

It seems the Harper government doesn't have a very good track record of vetting people to entrust with our countries most important secrets.


----------



## eMacMan

What is with all the pat themselves on the back at taxpayer expense ads. 

I wonder if these are being directed to a particular ad agency and since the Tories have directly copied a few other really dumb Liberal ideas I can't help asking; "Are kickbacks also part of the equation????????"

If so 'twould be as Yogi said; "Déja vué all over again."


----------



## groovetube

adscam, simply done a smarter way, right under our noses.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> seems rather quiet about this big shakedown. I find it rather amazing that while our government, who are supposed to be such great economic stewards, spending an alarming amount of millions on showering things on their ridings, massive ad campaigns to advertise the party, er, inform people of government services (yeah that's it!), but now we're sending out the 'fuzz' on apparently, possible ie fraud. With quotas to find it. Somewhere.
> 
> And then there's this little headache. Arthur Porter, former spy watchdog, wanted for alleged fraud | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> It seems the Harper government doesn't have a very good track record of vetting people to entrust with our countries most important secrets.


It amazes me what a bad judge of character, Our Glorious Leader, seem to be. From Ministers to Senators, to Chief of Staff, to this worthless self serving piece of trash. 

What's up with Stephen Harper's poor judgement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh oh it looks like this Harper advisor is with the pornographers!

Former Harper adviser Tom Flanagan loses several jobs for saying people shouldn't go to jail for viewing child porn


----------



## iMouse

Linking is obviously not one of his strong points.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh oh it looks like this Harper advisor is with the pornographers!
> 
> Former Harper adviser Tom Flanagan loses several jobs for saying people shouldn't go to jail for viewing child porn


What a loser post this is... Harper severed ties with Flanagan ages ago he... seems you and some media are want to connect dots where they don't exist... Yellow journalism alert.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> Linking is obviously not one of his strong points.


Agreed. 

Flanagan is a "fundamentalist" libertarian without a clue of how the real world works and why Harper severed his association with him ages ago.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Flanagan is a "fundamentalist" libertarian without a clue of how the real world works and why Harper severed his association with him ages ago.


As did the Wildrose party in Alberta today. The man is personna non grata.


----------



## groovetube

Truthfully, on any side if a current, or former significant member of a party is found to be really a bad choice, it's going to get some mileage. No one is immune, that's for sure.

But clearly, this isn't the only case of a really bad choice. There hasn't been much said of the other example I've mentioned. I'd say that, is a much more serious situation. Depending how important one considers such an important position of trust with our country's secrets.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Flanagan is a "fundamentalist" libertarian without a clue of how the real world works and why Harper severed his association with him ages ago.


However, I can see his point that the more serious crime is the production of child pornography, not the consumption of it. There have been so many outcries recently about academics being muzzled so that they can no longer express ideas, that I would think Flanagan would have more supporters in the media and academia. He has, in no way, supported the exploitation of children.


----------



## groovetube

Only 12 citizenships revoked after 18-month fraud crackdown | CTV News

There's that big bad boogieman thing the conservatives love to use so much.

12!!! 12 cases. Just y'all keep yer eye on that shiny ball.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> However, I can see his point that the more serious crime is the production of child pornography, not the consumption of it. There have been so many outcries recently about academics being muzzled so that they can no longer express ideas, that I would think Flanagan would have more supporters in the media and academia. He has, in no way, supported the exploitation of children.


Are you suggesting in an oblique way that you support his views?

There is no production without consumption. Guilty as charged.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Are you suggesting in an oblique way that you support his views?
> 
> There is no production without consumption. Guilty as charged.


I support his right to express the idea. There is no consumption without production.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> However, I can see his point that the more serious crime is the production of child pornography, not the consumption of it. There have been so many outcries recently about academics being muzzled so that they can no longer express ideas, that I would think Flanagan would have more supporters in the media and academia. He has, in no way, supported the exploitation of children.





Macfury said:


> I support his right to express the idea. There is no consumption without production.


I agree. He choose his words poorly, but i think it's pretty frightening that someone can have his career destroyed overnight by simply voicing an unpopular opinion.

I can understand organizations dumping him if he was campaigning for making possession of child porn legal, but he simply answered a question at a lecture.

There is also a legitimate question of what is the best way to handle the offence. Perhaps fines, community service and counselling would be a better solution than jail time for an individual who only possessed images and did not create or distribute them? I'm more disturbed by the public reaction to slam the door on any discourse of the subject rather than Flanagan's off the cuff remarks.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> I agree. He choose his words poorly, but i think it's pretty frightening that someone can have his career destroyed overnight by simply voicing an unpopular opinion.
> 
> I can understand organizations dumping him if he was campaigning for making possession of child porn legal, but he simply answered a question at a lecture.
> 
> There is also a legitimate question of what is the best way to handle the offence. Perhaps fines, community service and counselling would be a better solution than jail time for an individual who only possessed images and did not create or distribute them? I'm more disturbed by the public reaction to slam the door on any discourse of the subject rather than Flanagan's off the cuff remarks.


I have to say I am surprised by this post i-rui.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I support his right to express the idea. *There is no consumption without production.*


Exactly... and continued consumption equals continued production. Simple law of supply and demand.

His remarks were ill thought out and fundamentalist any way you slice it... I don't agree it should ruin his career but he has made the bed he sleeps in...


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Are you suggesting in an oblique way that you support his views?
> 
> *There is no production without consumption. Guilty as charged.*


That's simply ridiculous. Production always precedes consumption it is simple logic.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> His remarks were ill thought out and fundamentalist any way you slice it... I don't agree it should ruin his career but he has made the bed he sleeps in...


Has "fundamental" become a dirty word? 

And what bed did he make that he now must sleep in? He hasn't changed any laws, or promoted or produced any child pornography. Nobody has been harmed by his expression of an idea.

Freedom means sometimes having to hear ideas that make one uncomfortable. I find the existence of child pornography loathsome, and believe that the victimization of children is the lowest of crimes. However, if some alternative approaches to enforcement could allow more resources to be aimed at producers and distributors of child pornography, I would want people to be able to discuss them without fear of reprisal.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> That's simply ridiculous. Production always precedes consumption it is simple logic.


*sigh*

I do my best to not think of you as a total a-hole but when you slam out of left field screaming 'ridiculous' and 'simple' it's really difficult not to. There are much friendlier ways to respond. 

Consumption/ production: production/ consumption. You can't consume something that doesn't exist and conversely, without consumers (the market) production withers. They are dependant on one another to survive. 

By condoning the consumption, it gives the impetus to produce more. No market, no product. If nobody's buying what you're selling... Studies have shown that pedophiles don't exist in a vacuum. They thrive on vast networks of like minded individuals. If people weren't buying what they're selling....

That is my point. Please feel free to respond in such a way that makes ehMac an increasingly unpleasant place to visit.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wow. The PMO, Wildrose Party, Manning Institute, Premier Redford all making statements to distance themselves from Flanagan. The University of Calgary also announces the professor's retirement. It looks as if one of the spiritual leaders of neo-conservatism in Canada is down and out for the count. Blame it all on yellow journalism and the former friends of the child porn advocate. Obviously a few people made the link.

Personally I think that "fundamental" is not a dirty word at all. I would have preferred that "simpleton" be used instead. It's amazing that simpleton-libertarianism can rationalize child pornography in any form.

Thanks has to go out to Arnell Tailfeathers. Mr. Tailfeather's iPhone recorded the event. Bravo Arnell!


----------



## groovetube

Boy, you wanna make sure you have at least 50 bucks when a private clinic is where you are when in serious medical trouble.
CTV News | News Video - Top National News Headlines - News Videos


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Freedom means sometimes having to hear ideas that make one uncomfortable. I find the existence of child pornography loathsome, and believe that the victimization of children is the lowest of crimes. However, if some alternative approaches to enforcement could allow more resources to be aimed at producers and distributors of child pornography, I would want people to be able to discuss them without fear of reprisal.


I completely agree. "Child porn" has become a "guilty until proven innocent" attack; all one needs is to suggest that someone is producing/consuming "child porn" and they're tainted until they can unequivocally prove the negative. Furthermore, there's a big difference between someone clicking a link that downloads some images to their computer, and producing those images in the first place. Especially because it's entirely possible to download images without knowing in advance what the content is going to be (anyone here been 'Rickrolled'?... back in the early days of the Usenet there was some pretty vile stuff that would be hidden in data streams as a joke... look up 'goatse' if you dare). Finally, the definition of 'child porn' is fairly broad; a 17-year-old posing provocatively is an entirely different thing than a toddler being sexually exploited.

While I absolutely agree that anyone who is intentionally consuming child porn of the latter form is a problem for society; a blanket law that throws anyone possessing anything that someone considers "child porn" in jail is probably going to be abused.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Personally I think that "fundamental" is not a dirty word at all. I would have preferred that "simpleton" be used instead. It's amazing that simpleton-libertarianism can rationalize child pornography in any form.


This is not remotely accurate.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

bryanc said:


> I completely agree. "Child porn" has become a "guilty until proven innocent" attack; all one needs is to suggest that someone is producing/consuming "child porn" and they're tainted until they can unequivocally prove the negative. Furthermore, there's a big difference between someone clicking a link that downloads some images to their computer, and producing those images in the first place. Especially because it's entirely possible to download images without knowing in advance what the content is going to be (anyone here been 'Rickrolled'?... back in the early days of the Usenet there was some pretty vile stuff that would be hidden in data streams as a joke... look up 'goatse' if you dare). Finally, the definition of 'child porn' is fairly broad; a 17-year-old posing provocatively is an entirely different thing than a toddler being sexually exploited.
> 
> While I absolutely agree that anyone who is intentionally consuming child porn of the latter form is a problem for society; a blanket law that throws anyone possessing anything that someone considers "child porn" in jail is probably going to be abused.


Yes this is the kind of nuanced perspective that needs to be publicized. Discourse like this takes place across the country in communities, municipalities, regional councils, provincial legislatures and Parliament/Senate. Laws are introduced and we have an excellent legal system to interpret how laws are enforced. One of the reasons we have government is to ameliorate excessive individualism in our society.

Mr. Flanagan's statements on the issue violated a social norm and he has been reprimanded accordingly. 

And if you buy into Don Braid's opinion, Alberta may see the Mandatory Reporting of Child Pornography Act. made law in Alberta as early as next week.

This is going to be extremely interesting.


----------



## Rps

I think what we have here is a classic case of context. From a libertarian point of view why should simply seeing child pornography be a crime....similar to those who feel that hiring a hooker if she is a consenting adult should not be a crime.... this, too me, falls under the myth of the "victimless crime" approach so many of the "freedom of whatever" crowd takes. Does any rational individual think that the child willingly chose to partake? Would anyone choose to freely prostitute themselves...... Flanagan's thoughts on the law may have some slight merit, but the concept of common good tells me that any law that prohibits the possession and distribution of child pornography is a good law, but let's be clear here, Flanagan was talking about the law in theory, which is a long way from indicating he supports child pornography.....but the greatest crime I see is how someone who was tagged as a genius political adviser could not foresee the ramifications of such a "sound bit blunder". Makes one wonder if he has lost touch with the masses.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Has "fundamental" become a dirty word?
> 
> *And what bed did he make that he now must sleep in?* He hasn't changed any laws, or promoted or produced any child pornography. Nobody has been harmed by his expression of an idea.
> 
> Freedom means sometimes having to hear ideas that make one uncomfortable. I find the existence of child pornography loathsome, and believe that the victimization of children is the lowest of crimes. However, if some alternative approaches to enforcement could allow more resources to be aimed at producers and distributors of child pornography, I would want people to be able to discuss them without fear of reprisal.


This:

Spectacular flame-out ends Flanagan’s distinguished career



> ...Flanagan was disowned by the Prime Minister’s Office, the CBC, the University of Lethbridge, his own University of Calgary, Manning’s foundation, and the Wildrose.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I think what we have here is a classic case of context. From a libertarian point of view why should simply seeing child pornography be a crime....similar to those who feel that hiring a hooker if she is a consenting adult should not be a crime.... this, too me, falls under the myth of the "victimless crime" approach so many of the "freedom of whatever" crowd takes. Does any rational individual think that the child willingly chose to partake? Would anyone choose to freely prostitute themselves...... Flanagan's thoughts on the law may have some slight merit, but the concept of common good tells me that any law that prohibits the possession and distribution of child pornography is a good law, but let's be clear here, Flanagan was talking about the law in theory, which is a long way from indicating he supports child pornography.....but the greatest crime I see is how *someone who was tagged as a genius political adviser could not foresee the ramifications of such a "sound bit blunder". Makes one wonder if he has lost touch with the masses*.


Bingo.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> I think what we have here is a classic case of context. From a libertarian point of view why should simply seeing child pornography be a crime....similar to those who feel that hiring a hooker if she is a consenting adult should not be a crime.... this, too me, falls under the myth of the "victimless crime" approach so many of the "freedom of whatever" crowd takes. Does any rational individual think that the child willingly chose to partake? Would anyone choose to freely prostitute themselves...... Flanagan's thoughts on the law may have some slight merit, but the concept of common good tells me that any law that prohibits the possession and distribution of child pornography is a good law, but let's be clear here, Flanagan was talking about the law in theory, which is a long way from indicating he supports child pornography.....but the greatest crime I see is how someone who was tagged as a genius political adviser could not foresee the ramifications of such a "sound bit blunder". Makes one wonder if he has lost touch with the masses.


An excellent synopsis of this situation, Rp. Some might feel that as an academic he has the protection of "academic freedom" to do or say whatever he feels. However, as an academic, he should understand that there is freedom with responsibility. He has the right to say what he feels/believes, but then he has the responsibility to accept the consequences of his actions. Child pornography, as you correctly contend, is NOT a victimless crime. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I do my best to not think of you as a total a-hole but when you slam out of left field screaming 'ridiculous' and 'simple' it's really difficult not to. There are much friendlier ways to respond...


My apologies.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The weekend papers will feature lot's of digging into the Flanagan mindset. Here's what could be the first of many timelines documenting Flanagan's follies -

Global News | Tom Flanagan: A timeline of gaffes


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Does any rational individual think that the child willingly chose to partake?


Of course not. 



Rps said:


> Would anyone choose to freely prostitute themselves......


Absolutely! Child pornography is not reasonably comparable to prostitution where purveyor and customer are adults.



Rps said:


> Makes one wonder if he has lost touch with the masses.


I hope so. The masses, in general, are not an impressive lot.


----------



## Macfury

This defection of an NDP member to the Bloc has gotta hurt:

Tory claim of NDP


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I hope so. The masses, in general, are not an impressive lot.


Impressive enough to make everyone drop Flanagan like the hot potato he is.

Maybe he can collect EI. It would be interesting to hear the discussion with the civil servant sent to check up on him.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Impressive enough to make everyone drop Flanagan like the hot potato he is.


Since when is the actions of a mob impressive?


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Absolutely! Child pornography is not reasonably comparable to prostitution where purveyor and customer are adults.


Completely agreed. "Consenting adults" makes a world of difference ethically and legally.

I knew a young woman who occasionally turned tricks when she was a grad student to help make ends meet; she seemed perfectly happy with the arrangements she made. Any adult should be free to have sex with whomever they choose for whatever reason they choose, even if that reason is money. There is no comparison between child pornography and prostitution.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Since when is the actions of a mob impressive?


The only actions here are by the ones that had associated with, and then subsequently distanced themselves from Flanagan. The 'opinions' of the great unwashed must resonate enough for them to take said action.

Hmm, referring to the public as 'a mob'. Do I detect the stench of misanthropy by chance?


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> An excellent synopsis of this situation, Rp. Some might feel that as an academic he has the protection of "academic freedom" to do or say whatever he feels. However, as an academic, he should understand that there is freedom with responsibility. He has the right to say what he feels/believes, but then he has the responsibility to accept the consequences of his actions. Child pornography, as you correctly contend, is NOT a victimless crime. Paix, mon ami.


Flanagan seems to have forgotten that not only was "academic freedom" an issue for him but also his position as an entertainer on the public air waves. Not to mention his association and reputation for other politicos. 

I am irate with him for introducing the practice of elections conducted as if they were a pitch battle in a war, his belief that political parties are in a take no prisoners, battle to the genocide of your opponents. Not to mention his views with regard to the assassination of a person who's free speech he happened to disagree with.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> The only actions here are by the ones that had associated with, and then subsequently distanced themselves from Flanagan. The 'opinions' of the great unwashed must resonate enough for them to take said action.


Neither the stench of misanthropy or populism.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It reminds of the scene in Quadrophenia where the Mods have waged war against the Rockers and come out victorious chanting "We are the Mods".

We are the Mobs 

We are the Mobs

We are, we are, we are the Mobs


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Neither the stench of misanthropy or populism.


The path narrows to Elitism.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> The path narrows to Elitism.


"Navigating between the shoals of populism on one side, and the jagged rocks of misanthropy on the other, one eventually finds oneself docking at the port-of-call of elitism."

mrjimmy (2013)


----------



## screature

As an MP, Trudeau shouldn’t be charging the public for speeches 

A good argument and one that should be looked at with more scrutiny by the Ethics Commissioner... *She* gets a failing grade on her judgment AFAIAC.



> ...his speaking gigs were, to my surprise, *approved by the Parliamentary Ethics Commissioner, Mary Dawson. Still, it left the decision to his own judgment, which is precisely the issue here.*
> 
> ...*That MPs must not charge a red cent to speak to charities and not-for-profits should go without saying, though obviously it does need saying.* What about private companies? Since becoming an MP, Mr. Trudeau has also been paid handsomely to speak to several of them. Businesses are of course free to use their funds as they choose. *Still, morality is surely on the side of NDP MP Pat Martin who insists that “It is absolutely untoward and inappropriate for MPs or senators to charge a speaker’s fee. I’m paid handsomely to be a Member of Parliament and if I’m invited to speak … that’s one of my duties to share that with civil society, free of charge, gratis.”*
> 
> That handsome MP’s reward includes a $157,731 annual salary plus $25,850 in accommodation expenses plus 64 round-trip plane trips. At a time when fewer and fewer Canadians make a secure, livable wage or get any benefits and pension at all, this must seem like winning the lottery. But for MPs outside the cabinet, it’s just the beginning. Yet speaking to a school board, university or hospital means being paid a second time from the public purse, a clear case of double-dipping by any standard.
> 
> Yet Mr. Trudeau accepted such engagements from the time he was elected until the time he decided to run for party leader. It’s hard to understand how someone on an MP’s salary, who also happens to be worth more than a million dollars, can rationalize taking large speakers’ fees.
> 
> *Mr. Trudeau does himself no favors when he claims that when he speaks at such events, he doesn’t talk politics. What else does a Member of Parliament do? He explained to the Ottawa Citizen that his topics include youth issues, education and the environment. Was this a joke?
> 
> It’s quite something to assert with a straight face that these are not political issues. If you happened to be your party’s parliamentary critic for youth, can you even open your mouth on “youth issues” without being political? And if you are that critic, are you conceivably allowed to charge school boards or promoters of learning when you address them? Isn’t that what the critic’s duties are all about? Isn’t that what an MP gets paid to do?*
> 
> *Coming on top of his decision to skip a crucial vote on AIDS drugs for Africa, these revelations make you wonder about Mr. Trudeau’s disabled moral compass. Does he know right from wrong?*
> 
> Of course I wouldn’t for a moment want the tawdry revelations about our imploding Senate to cease. For example, the Duff – as Senator Mike Duffy adoringly calls himself – also offers himself as a speaker, his website declaring that he’s “much sought-after as a keynote speaker for charity.” No doubt. But his fee is not mentioned. We can confidently expect many more headline-making revelations to come from the Senate mausoleum.
> 
> *But Justin Trudeau wants to be Prime Minister of Canada. He deserves the intense scrutiny that comes with such a heady ambition, and he already has much to answer for.*


----------



## iMouse

Actually, she could just be very crafty. 

That provides the voters with their very own litmus test.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> As an MP, Trudeau shouldn’t be charging the public for speeches
> 
> A good argument and one that should be looked at with more scrutiny by the Ethics Commissioner... *She* gets a failing grade on her judgment AFAIAC.


I had the misfortune of sitting through one of Mr. Trudeau's rambling speeches of just this sort. It contained enough political digs and asides to more than qualify it as a political effort.


----------



## i-rui

Great grassroots option to get the wheels turning on fixing our broken election process for those interested.

Cooperate for Canada



> ‎***Deadline this Sunday, March 3rd***
> 
> Thousands of Canadians are joining the party of their choice to support cooperation.
> 
> The Liberal Party is choosing their next leader and they’ve invited Canadians to sign up for free and vote for the next Liberal leader.
> 
> Right now, cooperation is a major debate in the race, and everyone is watching to see if Canadians will join the race to support cooperation.
> 
> The deadline to sign up to support cooperation in the Liberal Leadership race is this Sunday, March 3rd.
> 
> It's easy, you can do it right here: Join | Cooperate for Canada
> 
> Background
> 
> In the last federal election, 61% of voters cast ballots for change, but the vote split and our broken electoral system gave Prime Minister Harper a majority of seats in Parliament.
> 
> Now, Prime Minister Harper is damaging our democracy, destroying our environmental protections, and undermining our economy. We can hold Prime Minister Harper accountable, renew our democracy and rise to the challenges of our times – but we need to work together. Here’s how:
> 
> During the next election, the NDP, Liberals and Greens can cooperate in key ridings to defeat Stephen Harper’s government. After the election, they can work together to fix our broken electoral system, protect our environment and build a fair economy.
> 
> Canadians are ready for cooperation, and we have to act now to send a powerful message to party leaders that Canadians will support cooperation at key moments.
> 
> Ready for the next step? Sign the petition to party leaders and then join the party of your choice to support cooperation in key votes, we’ll make it easy.
> 
> Go to Cooperate for Canada to learn more! (And remember that the deadline to sign up to support cooperation in the Liberal Leadership race is this Sunday, March 3rd.)


----------



## Rps

Screature I think some review should be in order, but, as Ms. Clark is finding out in B.C. using government money for campaigning is a dangerous issue politically. Yes I know there is a difference between using government funds ( read civil service ) for electioneering as in her case, but with Trudeau campaigning for the Liberal leadership one could argue his "paying job" is a form of government funding. A stretch I know, but one could make that argument.

What is required is a complete review of what is ethical in with our members. Lately if a Cabinet Minister acts on behalf of a constituent he/she is in violation of something or other when a normal member would be classed as just doing their job. Charging for public speaking during an election campaign might be more ethical than simply putting it on the expense report.....


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Great grassroots option to get the wheels turning on fixing our broken election process for those interested.
> 
> Cooperate for Canada


I remember how this idea failed miserably when tried by other parties. Calling it "change" does not mean people will agree on what it means. Even though most of this crowd wants to see more money lavished on them and their pet concerns, prioritizing those concerns is problematic. 

Like putting dogs and cats and birds in a bag and calling it a coalition because they all enjoy yummy treats.


----------



## groovetube

Is this not the same ethics commissioner that found flaherty was relatively blameless on his little affair? My question is, why is her judgement sound there, but not with Trudeau?

Not to stir anything here, but in the end, I do also thnk there needs to be some review of what is and isn't ethical. As a final small dig at our current sitting government, they often find that rules and watchdogs aren't always what they wanted... (*cough* budget officer...)


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Charging for public speaking during an election campaign might be more ethical than simply putting it on the expense report.....


Provided they don't keep the fees, but donate them to the government?


----------



## iMouse

The same could be said for Wynne, and her attack of gas.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I remember how this idea failed miserably when tried by other parties.


this has never be tried by other parties, so it seems you have misunderstood what is being proposed.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> this has never be tried by other parties, so it seems you have misunderstood what is being proposed.


It was similarly proposed by the Reform and Progressive Conservative parties.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> It was similarly proposed by the Reform and Progressive Conservative parties.


I certainly don't remember this (although i was much younger when the reform party was still active). If it was proposed it certainly was never carried out to completion. Instead they merged.... which is kind of funny since you just said this a few posts ago :



> Calling it "change" does not mean people will agree on what it means. Even though most of this crowd wants to see more money lavished on them and their pet concerns, prioritizing those concerns is problematic.
> 
> Like putting dogs and cats and birds in a bag and calling it a coalition because they all enjoy yummy treats.


but a merger is the last thing i'd want to see. i appreciate the differences between a centrist party and a left leaning party, and a environmental party.

I'd never want to have my interests limited to one party that pays lip service to half their supporters like the Conservatives....


----------



## fjnmusic

i-rui said:


> I certainly don't remember this (although i was much younger when the reform party was still active). If it was proposed it certainly was never carried out to completion. Instead they merged.... which is kind of funny since you just said this a few posts ago :
> 
> 
> 
> but a merger is the last thing i'd want to see. i appreciate the differences between a centrist party and a left leaning party, and a environmental party.
> 
> I'd never want to have my interests limited to one party that pays lip service to half their supporters like the Conservatives....


This is noble, but if you want to win an election, you have to maximize your supporters under one umbrella. Like the Conservative Reform Alliance Party (CRAP) did, or Conservative for short.


----------



## i-rui

fjnmusic said:


> This is noble, but if you want to win an election, you have to maximize your supporters under one umbrella. Like the Conservative Reform Alliance Party (CRAP) did, or Conservative for short.


under our current 'first past the post' system i certainly agree.

but what is being proposed is election reform, so that the opposition parties defeat the conservatives in 2015, pass laws on either proportional representation or alternative voting, and then we can continue with a multi-party system.

on the current track we're on the ultimate conclusion will be a NDP/Liberal merge, and then a 2 party system. This would be the worst case scenario for Canadians. Look how well it's working for Americans.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> I certainly don't remember this (although i was much younger when the reform party was still active). If it was proposed it certainly was never carried out to completion.


The parties couldn't bring themselves to believe that they should be the party to pull a candidate--they hoped that the other party would always see itself as fielding the weakest candidate. The result was that nothing was done.

A merger was the eventual solution. However, the Conservatives and Reform Party had considerably more in common than the NDP and Liberals.


----------



## fjnmusic

i-rui said:


> under our current 'first past the post' system i certainly agree.
> 
> but what is being proposed is election reform, so that the opposition parties defeat the conservatives in 2015, pass laws on either proportional representation or alternative voting, and then we can continue with a multi-party system.
> 
> on the current track we're on the ultimate conclusion will be a NDP/Liberal merge, and then a 2 party system. This would be the worst case scenario for Canadians. Look how well it's working for Americans.


To get such electoral reform, you would not the support of the current government, which in any scenario will always favor the first past the post system as long as they are in power.


----------



## i-rui

this is all explained. please read the link.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> but what is being proposed is election reform, so that the opposition parties defeat the conservatives in 2015, pass laws on either proportional representation or alternative voting, and then we can continue with a multi-party system.


This is frequently proposed by the party currently in the doghouse.



i-rui said:


> on the current track we're on the ultimate conclusion will be a NDP/Liberal merge, and then a 2 party system. This would be the worst case scenario for Canadians.


Agreed.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Is this not the same ethics commissioner that found flaherty was relatively blameless on his little affair? My question is, why is her judgement sound there, but not with Trudeau?
> 
> Not to stir anything here, but in the end, I do also thnk there needs to be some review of what is and isn't ethical. As a final small dig at our current sitting government, they often find that rules and watchdogs aren't always what they wanted... (*cough* budget officer...)


Quite a difference between writing a letter of support for an application to the CRTC for someone else (that was rejected by the independent body) and making hundreds of thousands of dollars for oneself. At least in my books. 

Flaherty was still told he shouldn't do it in the future while Trudeau has been given carte blanche to do how he sees fit. 

So let's recap... according the Ethics Commissioner, one should not advocate on the behalf of someone else as part of your duties as an MP (if you are also a Minister) but it is OK to significantly benefit financially from speaking engagements that every other MP sees as just being part of the job that you are already being paid for as an MP. To say that there is a double standard is an understatement IMO and yes, there needs to be a review of what is and isn't ethical as well.


----------



## iMouse

Can't disagree with that. 

Too much 'art' and not enough 'science' going on here.

Nail the damn thing down, once and for all.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Quite a difference between writing a letter of support for an application to the CRTC for someone else (that was rejected by the independent body) and making hundreds of thousands of dollars for oneself. At least in my books.
> 
> Flaherty was still told he shouldn't do it in the future while Trudeau has been given carte blanche to do how he sees fit.
> 
> So let's recap... according the Ethics Commissioner, one should not advocate on the behalf of someone else as part of your duties as an MP (if you are also a Minister) but it is OK to significantly benefit financially from speaking engagements that every other MP sees as just being part of the job that you are already being paid for as an MP. To say that there is a double standard is an understatement IMO and yes, there needs to be a review of what is and isn't ethical as well.


Sure. But the ethics commissioner was held out as the final word on the Flaherty affair. 

Our opinions differ on which situation was more wrong, and I'm not really going to debate that or try to change your mind on it. I feel that Flaherty, should have well known what the rules were, but broke them anyway, thinking he could get away with it. That to me, is every bit as bad, as Trudeau, making money from speaking, even though he apparently wasn't breaking any rules. WHile I may agree, that perhaps an MP shouldn't be allowed to make money like that from speaking engagements, (my opinion only) Trudeau, apparently had this cleared -first- before doing so, rather than breaking the rule thinking he can get away with it. That's a big difference in my opinion, regardless of what party either belong to.

That's the point here to me. It may not be much to you in your opinion. However, from what I understand, one broke the rule, and the other, had it cleared first.

Now, beyond this, if enough people feel a rule should be reviewed and changed, that's fair game. But until then, a party that held up accountability and following the rules, should do so. Things can start to get a little 'interesting; should we start allowing governments to get away with breaking rules simply because they or we think the rule isn't a good one.


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau

Looks like it'll be Trudeau.

If so, it'll make for an interesting 2015.


----------



## screature

It ain't over until "The Fat Lady Sings". 

You are most likely correct... but "hope springs eternal".


----------



## groovetube

no it certainly isn't. I'm reserving my opinion on Justin Trudeau until I've seen more of him in action.

My hope is to see the Harper government at least reduced to a minority.

After the liberal majorities, and what I have seen of the Harper crew in majority, I hope Canadians are smart enough not to give either of them majorities. None of them can be trusted with one quite clearly.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> no it certainly isn't. I'm reserving my opinion on Justin Trudeau until I've seen more of him in action.
> 
> My hope is to see the Harper government at least reduced to a minority.
> 
> After the liberal majorities, and what I have seen of the Harper crew in majority, I hope Canadians are smart enough not to give either of them majorities. None of them can be trusted with one quite clearly.


We may disagree on some things but on that we are in total agreement. At least with a minority government fewer bills detrimental to the average resident become law.

I think that most of the "good" laws and regulations were passed more than a century ago. That leaves the politicos with far too much time to figure out new ways to funnel tax dollar$ to their corporate puppet masters or worse yet their own pockets.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> We may disagree on some things but on that we are in total agreement. At least with a minority government fewer bills detrimental to the average resident become law.
> 
> I think that most of the "good" laws and regulations were passed more than a century ago. That leaves the politicos with far too much time to figure out new ways to funnel tax dollar$ to their corporate puppet masters or worse yet their own pockets.


Yes, I love gridlock in government!


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> We may disagree on some things but on that we are in total agreement. At least with a minority government fewer bills detrimental to the average resident become law.
> 
> I think that most of the "good" laws and regulations were passed more than a century ago. That leaves the politicos with far too much time to figure out new ways to funnel tax dollar$ to their corporate puppet masters or worse yet their own pockets.


Yes. History has shown minority parliaments can get better things that benefit citizens done. The recent minority parliaments were simply power struggles to get a majority. Take that carrot away, and we'll see an improvement.

As I type this I just saw yet another adscam ad. They're really hittin it hard. The amount of tax payer money being spent on that makes me sick.


----------



## bryanc

It seems to me that any system can be gamed, and the longer a system is static, the more time the parasites have to optimize their strategies for abusing it. If for no other reason than this, it is healthy for organizations to change with some frequency, even if no other desirable goals are being achieved.


----------



## iMouse

bryanc said:


> It seems to me that any system can be gamed, and the longer a system is static, the more time the parasites have to optimize their strategies for abusing it. If for no other reason than this, it is healthy for organizations to change with some frequency, even if no other desirable goals are being achieved.


You make it sound like bacterial Biology 101, which it most certainly is. :lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Yes. History has shown minority parliaments can get better things that benefit citizens done. The recent minority parliaments were simply power struggles to get a majority. Take that carrot away, and we'll see an improvement.
> 
> As I type this I just saw yet another adscam ad. They're really hittin it hard. The amount of tax payer money being spent on that makes me sick.


Yep Adscam 1.0 pales in comparison. Not one iota of useful information in the entire series of ads.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Yep Adscam 1.0 pales in comparison. Not one iota of useful information in the entire series of ads.


Aren't those ads paid for by the Conservative Party, not tax dollars?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Yes, I love gridlock in government!


that's why you voted for Rob Ford!



SINC said:


> Aren't those ads paid for by the Conservative Party, not tax dollars?


nope. tax dollars. tens of millions of them.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Aren't those ads paid for by the Conservative Party, not tax dollars?


:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Aren't those ads paid for by the Conservative Party, not tax dollars?





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


 Are people willfully blind or just that naive?


----------



## iMouse

Canadians just want to believe the best in everybody, so they are fodder for politicians.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> ...
> As I type this I just saw yet another adscam ad. They're really hittin it hard. The amount of tax payer money being spent on that makes me sick.





eMacMan said:


> Yep Adscam 1.0 pales in comparison. Not one iota of useful information in the entire series of ads.





SINC said:


> Aren't those ads paid for by the Conservative Party, not tax dollars?


Sorry Don I know you don't want to face it but your guys really are every bit as bad as those other guys. To be fair your post might have been intended as sarcasm and you were somewhat hampered by the still non existent sarcasm emoticon.



> The Conservative government has approved tens of millions of dollars in “economic action plan” ads this year even as it cites fiscal restraint to cut programs such as scientific research and environmental monitoring.
> 
> 
> While Finance officials are refusing to disclose the budget for the current “action plan” media blitz blanketing Canadian airwaves, a Treasury Board document shows that cabinet approved $16-million in “economic action plan” advertising in the first quarter of this year alone.
> 
> 
> That doesn’t include $5-million approved for a “better jobs” ad campaign, $8-million to sell Canadians on cuts to old age security, and $5-million to promote “responsible resource development” — the slogan given to an environmental assessment system that was cut back and restructured in the last budget. All the measures are promoted on the government’s “economic action plan” web site.
> 
> 
> The Conservatives also approved $4.5-million for War of 1812 advertising this year.
> ....


Tories commit millions to

Big taxpayer bucks going to a Harper buddy ad agency at a time when the Cons seem incapable of comprehending the meaning of a balanced budget. Will be interesting to see if the Con gang raises the same ruckus over this as they did when Martin was at the tiller. Would be nice to see but I have no intention of holding my breath.


----------



## Dr.G.

Literacy guide uses partisan example to conjugate 'elect' - Politics - CBC News

Well, it is still "i before e except after c".


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Canadians just want to believe the best in everybody, so they are fodder for politicians.


Yes. Even their supporters don't know what's going on. As I said before, Canadians are just sleepwalking through all this and Harper and co. not only know it, but they're taking full advantage of it and spending like crazy. The scary part is this is likely the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## eMacMan

*Harper bumps the ante Northerners applying for SIN card*



> Imagine having to pay thousands of dollars just to get a card with your social insurance number.
> 
> That's what some northerners say will be the result of recent federal changes to the application process.
> 
> Ottawa recently altered the rules for first-time card applicants so that they can no longer apply for the card by mail.
> 
> Everyone has to show up in person at a Service Canada office, but only three of Nunavut's 28 communities have such offices.
> 
> That means people in Grise (GREEZ) Fiord must travel to Iqaluit to get the card — a $6,600 airfare and a week's journey.
> 
> Nunavut Premier Eva Aariak (AIR'-ee-ak) has protested to the federal government.
> 
> She says the problem is common to all Canada's remote, fly-in communities, not just those in the North.


Yahoo! News Canada - Latest News & Headlines


----------



## iMouse

So, fly one official in, and git 'er done.

Far cheaper.


----------



## Dr.G.

MPs vote against NDP motion to abolish Senate - Politics - CBC News

Close only counts when you play horseshoes and hand granade toss.


----------



## groovetube

Clawing back job training money could expand EI backlash: Hébert | Toronto Star

Well they have to pay for handing corporations billions to create jo... er cash hoard.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa moves to toughen up cellphone rules for carriers - The Globe and Mail

didn't we hear this crack and bull story already before?


----------



## groovetube

Bad news expected for Flaherty at meeting with private sector economists | CityNews

Wonder who'll they'll send their thugs out after next to uncover 'fraud'.

I suppose that massive 'stimulus' in huge corporate tax cuts didn't amount to squat.


----------



## SINC

Canada creates a surprise 51,000 new jobs in February - Business - CBC News

Good job1


----------



## groovetube

I don't think the 51k jobs in feb is really going to reverse what's occurring. Sorry.

I hear things are looking pretty dire in Alberta with the oil revenues really dropping too.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I don't think the 51k jobs in feb is really going to reverse what's occurring. Sorry.
> 
> I hear things are looking pretty dire in Alberta with the oil revenues really dropping too.


Might anyone know why the province of Alberta is borrowing money to balance their budget rather than use their Heritage Fund? Please, just legitimate answers and no Alberta-bashing. I am just curious.


----------



## SINC

I will try to check further Dr. G., but memory makes me think that the Heritage Trust funds are pretty much all loaned out to other various governments.

Perhaps this will help you in understanding just how the fund works:

Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund - Frequently Asked Questions


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> I will try to check further Dr. G., but memory makes me think that the Heritage Trust funds are pretty much all loaned out to other various governments.
> 
> Perhaps this will help you in understanding just how the fund works:
> 
> Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund - Frequently Asked Questions


That is what my wife mentioned to me, but I was wondering why they would not borrow from their own fund and save the interest expenses.


----------



## i-rui

Dr.G. said:


> That is what my wife mentioned to me, but I was wondering why they would not borrow from their own fund and save the interest expenses.


Alberta Investment Management Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> As of 2012, the fund is invested in stocks, bonds, real estate and other ventures, with the aim of generating revenue for the province.
> [edit]


most likely the interest from borrowing is less then what they feel their investments are making.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Alberta Investment Management Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> most likely the interest from borrowing is less then what they feel their investments are making.


A valid point, i-rui. That would make sense.


----------



## iMouse

Dr.G. said:


> A valid point, i-rui. That would make sense.


At one time investment in government bonds was considered a safe-haven for funds such as this.

Not anymore.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Might anyone know why the province of Alberta is borrowing money to balance their budget rather than use their Heritage Fund? Please, just legitimate answers and no Alberta-bashing. I am just curious.


My Alberta comment shouldn't be taken as Alberta bashing, I love Alberta, but it's the conservatives, both their and our federal government who amazingly seem to overestimate things a great deal leading to overspending silly tax cuts and deficits.

No comment on your actual question though, I don't know.


----------



## SINC

Nice to see everyone is on board with no Alberta bashing as you requested Dr. G., everyone honoured your request. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Nice to see everyone is on board with no Alberta bashing as you requested Dr. G., everyone honoured your request. :clap:


I loves me some Alberta... I just hate the peeples in it!


----------



## bryanc

I grew up in Alberta, and many of my best friends still live there; we always hated the conservatives and we always knew they'd blow the Heritage fund on 'investments' in their buddies. When the oil money moves on, the water will be gone, and Alberta will be in a bind. Fortunately, despite the conservative's short sighted focus on the resource sector, Alberta has developed some superb biotech and other knowledge-based industries (thanks to two of the best universities in our country), so they'll probably be able to afford to buy bottled water from New Brunswick.


----------



## Macfury

Thankfully, Alberta has a huge stockpile of fossil fuels that will see it through fifty years or better--in addition to the many diversified industries that are being built there and an incredible entrepreneurial spirit!

Why if it weren't for prairie resource wealth, Canada's social programs would have withered on the vine years ago!


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> I grew up in Alberta, and many of my best friends still live there; we always hated the conservatives and we always knew they'd blow the Heritage fund on 'investments' in their buddies. When the oil money moves on, the water will be gone, and Alberta will be in a bind. Fortunately, despite the conservative's short sighted focus on the resource sector, Alberta has developed some superb biotech and other knowledge-based industries (thanks to two of the best universities in our country), so they'll probably be able to afford to buy bottled water from New Brunswick.


Well, that obviously is your opinion, but don't forget there are a big majority of us who still live here who do not agree with your (nor your 'friends') assessment of our province. Glad you are enjoying NB and its assets. It does after all, leave us with one less whiner out here.


----------



## groovetube

Oooooh boy this where I call it a night.

Peace out.


----------



## iMouse

No need to get faux-nasty. 

And I was just going to suggest sending you some of our water, through the then unused oil pipeline system.

Play nice now, or I won't. tptptptp


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> No need to get *faux-nasty*.
> 
> And I was just going to suggest sending you some of our water, through the then unused oil pipeline system.
> 
> *Play nice now, or I won't.* tptptptp


When it comes to being "faux-nasty" I think bryanc started on that path before SINC and in fact *he* was being provocative toward SINC, (or any other westerner that continues to live in the West and is a conservative) it's not like they don't know where each other lives or their political proclivities... 

IMO bryanc *baited* the hook and waited to see who would bite... add a little forward movement to the boat and all of a sudden you are trolling.

When do your ever?!


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> When do your ever?!


So says the province that sends their excess hydro power to the states, to sell back to Ontario.

Why are there no high-tension lines between the Quebec James Bay project and Ontario?

tptptptp


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> So says the province that sends their excess hydro power to the states, to sell back to Ontario.
> 
> Why are there no high-tension lines between the Quebec James Bay project and Ontario?
> 
> tptptptp


What?!!!

You are delusional if you think I support the policies of the government of the province that I live in and clearly you have no knowledge/understanding of me or my politics... 

:lmao: That has to be one of the most ignorant posts I have received in my entire time on ehMac.

Congratulations on the dis/honour. :clap:


----------



## iMouse

I haven't been called ignorant in quite some time.

The last was a failed seminary student, that I had the pleasure of goading about religion.

That was always his response to our 'discussions', before he stomped away.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. ❤

Oh, BTW, you give yourself far too much credit, if you think everyone here gives a fig about your politics.

I know I don't.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Oooooh boy this where I call it a night.
> 
> Peace out.


I'm with you groove... sweet dreams.


----------



## MacDoc

Ah the cons are SUCH savvy economic managers...

Alberta’s oil woes mean trouble ahead for Canada: Walkom | Toronto Star

NOT.....
Hire some Norwegians....toss this lot.


----------



## iMouse

MacDoc said:


> Ah the cons are SUCH savvy economic managers...
> 
> Alberta’s oil woes mean trouble ahead for Canada: Walkom | Toronto Star
> 
> NOT.....
> Hire some Norwegians....toss this lot.


Look at the glee represented.

What planet are these people from?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Ah the cons are SUCH savvy economic managers...
> 
> Alberta’s oil woes mean trouble ahead for Canada: Walkom | Toronto Star
> 
> NOT.....
> Hire some Norwegians....toss this lot.


Statoil is heavily involved in the Oil Sands, MacDoc. Guess you don't do your research.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Nice to see everyone is on board with no Alberta bashing as you requested Dr. G., everyone honoured your request. :clap:





Macfury said:


> I loves me some Alberta... I just hate the peeples in it!


Well, I was just curious about the Heritage Fund being for a "rainy day" and AB needing to borrow money to balance their books rather than to draw down a bit of the Fund today. Still, NL is in the same boat as AB, although without any Heritage Fund, in that with oil prices down, our provincial government is feeling the pinch and having to face tough choices as well.

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## SINC

Flaherty on track to squash deficit amid strong job numbers | CTV News

Yep.


----------



## groovetube

50k jobs this month and that's what is going to balance the books! Yeah! It's funny how ineffectual our government really seems to be when you consider that our gains seem to occur when the US starts to turn around.

Well we here in Ontario, remember well Flaherty's promises of balancing the books. It never happened. And that, was in roaring good economic times.

This is also the same government, that took us from surplus budgets to a deficit one BEFORE the economic crash. Now that's thinkin!!

Just some actual, facts.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Flaherty on track to squash deficit amid strong job numbers | CTV News
> 
> Yep.


Looking good! Very difficult for some naysayers to look success in the face, I suppose. These are better numbers than the U.S. by far.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Looking good! Very difficult for some naysayers to look success in the face, I suppose. These are better numbers than the U.S. by far.


Considering how bad things have been not just in the US, but around the world, it's astounding how well we are doing. People do not realize just how lucky we are to have this particular government at this time.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Considering how bad things have been not just in the US, but around the world, it's astounding how well we are doing. People do not realize just how lucky we are to have this particular government at this time.


The actual truth is, this government inherited an extremely great situation with surpluses and strong banks. They had absolutely zero to do with it.

All they've done so far, is spend themselves silly, and blame others for their being so ineffective at getting things going. The only ones lucky is this government at having inherited such a rosy situation.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Looking good! Very difficult for some naysayers to look success in the face, I suppose. These are better numbers than the U.S. by far.


For cryin out loud Greece and Spain are showing better numbers than the Untied State of Paranoia. Only difference is they are so small the Banksters can pretty much do what they please to them.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> The actual truth is, this government inherited an extremely great situation with surpluses and strong banks. They had absolutely zero to do with it.
> 
> All they've done so far, is spend themselves silly, and blame others for their being so ineffective at getting things going. The only ones lucky is this government at having inherited such a rosy situation.


That's a very uninformed opinion. The Liberals had the same conditions when other much milder recessions came around, and we were hit much harder. The economic maxim used to be when the US gets a cold, we get pneumonia. Chretien never had us coming out of a recession in better shape than the US. Never had us at the top of the G20.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> That's a very uninformed opinion. The Liberals had the same conditions when other much milder recessions came around, and we were hit much harder. The economic maxim used to be when the US gets a cold, we get pneumonia. Chretien never had us coming out of a recession in better shape than the US. Never had us at the top of the G20.


That's pure nonsense. Chretien and Martin successfully pulled us out of being nearly bankrupted by the previous government's spending. Harper and crew, inherited a great financial position.

Big difference. I constantly hear conservatives try to attribute the actions of a previous government to Harper. All Harper and crew had to do was not screw up royally. However, their actions, are slowly bankrupting us just as Mulroney's did.

Of course we'll hear from the usual how Trudeau spent too, but facts are, he didn't spend like Mulroney did. He'll need to spin numbers and percentages to support his position. Seen it many times.

What's even MORE ironic, is the last word on Mulroney's defence is how smart he was, for bringing us the GST to help balance the budget. Imagine that, conservatives, who suggest a tax like the gst, was a good idea!!!

:lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Considering how bad things have been not just in the US, but around the world, it's astounding how well we are doing. People do not realize just how lucky we are to have this particular government at this time.


And had they just left Afghanistan when they originally promised, they might even have balanced the budget.


----------



## MacDoc

What a crock of right wingding spin....Simpson has the right of it......mismanagement.....just as Harpo is doing nationally....



> Jeffrey Simpson: T*he tragedy of Alberta’s missing governance*
> 
> JEFFREY SIMPSON
> The Globe and Mail
> Published Saturday, Mar. 09 2013, 6:00 AM EST
> 
> Here’s the country’s wealthiest province, with incredibly smart people and a deep sense of provincial pride. It does some collective enterprises sensationally well, and it has a dynamic business sector. It just can’t govern itself properly.
> 
> One paragraph in Thursday’s budget tells a long story. For nine of 10 years – from 2002 to 2011 – the operating expenses of the government grew faster than population growth and inflation. In most of those years, the gap was very large.
> 
> Health alone grew by 9 per cent a year for a decade, meaning a doubling of the health-care budget that now gobbles 45 per cent of all spending. (This budget proposes a shuddering halt: a 3-per-cent increase for health care and zero for operating expenses overall.)
> 
> How did this happen? Conservative governments prevailed, after all, during the later Ralph Klein years and under Ed Stelmach and now Alison Redford. Isn’t Alberta supposed to be the land of the Reform Party, of red-blooded conservatism, of free enterprise, of market ruling über alles? Wrong, then and now.
> 
> Satya Das, a shrewd commentator from Cambridge Strategies in Edmonton, observes in a postbudget commentary: “Do Albertans really feel entitled to the best of everything, without reckoning we need to fund the cost of all the societal benefits we receive? Until citizens are ready to pay for our needs and wants out of our earnings, we shouldn’t blame politicians for selling off the resources that are our children’s birthright in order to indulge our lifestyle.” Yes, Mr. Das, but who’s listening?
> 
> Year after year, Albertans counted on the least reliable source of revenues – fossil fuel production – to give themselves low taxes and munificent public services. By doing so, they resisted each year putting aside chunks of those revenues from fossil fuels in the Heritage Fund. As a consequence, they kept little aside for tomorrow’s uncertainties, and spent extensively today – while keeping taxes low.
> 
> They rejected a sales tax, the most reliable source of government revenue. They drove down corporate taxes. They gave the oil and gas sector the lowest royalty rates around, according to the consulting firm Wood Mackenzie. They gave themselves a low flat tax personal income tax system. And when times were really good, their premier – Ralph Klein in those days – cut them each $200 cheques to share in the good fortune.


wonderful management......NOT!! 

Jeffrey Simpson: The tragedy of Alberta

•••



> *Harper has no one to blame but himself*
> 
> In what can only be described as a sad state of affairs, the Conservative government will no longer set targets for erasing Canada’s federal debt.
> 
> Finance Minister Jim Flaherty confirmed Wednesday that the recession has derailed Ottawa’s long-term debt plans, and new targets will not be set until the government starts posting yearly surpluses again.
> 
> When Chretien/Martin assumed office in 1993, Canada could no longer afford to run deficits or add more debt to Canada’s accumulated national debt. The situation was untenable.
> 
> In his last year in office, before retiring, Brian Mulroney left a $46-billion deficit, and a credit rating downgrade. Debt servicing (i.e. interest) was eating up an ever growing share of the budget. Tough choices had to be made to get Canada back to a fiscal balance.
> 
> Once the budget was back in the black, and Canada was paying down its accumulated debt, program spending began to increase again. When Harper took power, the Canada he inherited was in a much happier position.
> 
> A country in surplus, a set of books in the black, a rather large contingency fund, a country paying down its accumulated debt, and solidly regulated financial institutions.
> 
> Under Harper, Canada went into a deficit position before the recession hit. Harper who cut a consumption tax against all advice given to him by real economists, and in doing so, eliminated around $13 billion in annual revenue. This was done so for purely political reasons, not for the better of the country. Harper did this to the country by himself, and he has no one else to blame.
> 
> He even wanted to deregulate the banking sector, something he had called for while in Opposition. Luckily, this never happened. Let’s remember that he was the one who claimed Canada would not go into a recession. He said that stimulus spending was not going to be needed. Years later, he now talks so highly of this same spending. Meanwhile, the Opposition has called for less spending and more investment in projects that would benefit the country long term.
> 
> The Harper government only seemed to care about spending money in Conservative ridings: an exercise in pork barrel spending. Nothing has been done for the long term well being of this country.
> 
> The Opposition had no input in stimulus spending. Harper had prorogued Parliament, and everything that was done was at the direction of the Harper government. Remember folks, he changed the name himself from the Canadian government to the Harper government.
> 
> He said that the Opposition was weak and fiscally reckless, but they were strong enough to make him spend billions? Is he the fool or are we the fools for believing him? Harper is responsible for the state of the nation’s finances.
> 
> He wanted a majority government and he got it. There are no excuses and no blaming the Opposition for all of his many failings this time.


CambridgeTimes Article: Harper has no one to blame but himself

so lucky eh......



> Wednesday, October 13, 2010
> *Canada records biggest deficit in history*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"I've gotta tell you, spending money is fun, Mr. Speaker!"_
> It's official. Stephen Harper's government has managed to out-do Pierre Trudeau, and take the crown as the biggest deficit spender in Canadian history.
> 
> *Clocking in at an impressive $55.6 billion, the Harper government has single-handedly managed to inflate the size of the Federal government since taking office in 2006, by approximately 50%*.
> 
> Remember: conservatives warned us that we had to dispose of the out-of-control spending of previous Liberal governments, which delivered eleven years of balanced budgets, reducing Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio from almost 90% down below 50%.
> .


The Shotgun: Canada records biggest deficit in history

and of course some few do recall that other paragon of fiscal virtue.....Brian...what cash....Muloonie also clocked up huge deficits.
When will this nonsense about good management from rightwingdings cease......

nah we need many more prisons eh.


----------



## iMouse

The term "drunken sailors" comes to mind.


----------



## groovetube

All they have to do is whisper sweet libertarian nothings in their supporters ears, and they well know, that despite all the lies and facts to the contrary, their supporters will trumpet these lies to the rooftops.

I knew when the Harper government started, that it was really a matter of time that we'd see their true colors in action. I wonder how long it'll be before the defence becomes, 'well they weren't conservative enough!'

Ha ha ha ha. Ya think? :lmao:


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Flaherty on track to squash deficit amid strong job numbers | CTV News
> 
> Yep.


i guess it all depends on who's writing the headline....

Flaherty warns of



> On Friday, economists who met with Mr. Flaherty in Ottawa said they had lowered their forecasts for economic growth since they last met with the Finance Minister, in November. The government did not release their average forecast, which will underpin the 2013 federal budget numbers. However, several economists said they are now projecting 2013 GDP growth will be less than 2 per cent – down significantly from last March, when the average forecast was for 2.4 per cent real GDP growth in 2013 and 2.4 per cent in 2014.



shocking that CTV tried to spin this as 'good' news. not shocking that Flaherty would.



heavyall said:


> That's a very uninformed opinion. The Liberals had the same conditions when other much milder recessions came around, and we were hit much harder. The economic maxim used to be when the US gets a cold, we get pneumonia. Chretien never had us coming out of a recession in better shape than the US. Never had us at the top of the G20.


wow. that's revisionist history. as groovetube already said, the Mulroney government left the liberals an economic mess, while Marin left Harper surpluses.

also, the reason Canada came out of the 2008 economic melt down relatively well was because our banking system was strong. Most conservatives (including Harper) were FOR reducing regulations and allowing Banks to merge so they could compete with US banks. Thank god that never happened.

Also, it's hilarious how Flaherty is backtracking on Mortgage regulations trying to limit the housing bubble by reverting back to the same rules the Liberals had in place before he took the reigns.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Flaherty on track to squash deficit amid strong job numbers | CTV News
> 
> Yep.




Now you realize self praise is a very poor recommendation? The Headline refers to Flaherty's opinion and no one else...right?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Now you realize self praise is a very poor recommendation? The Headline refers to Flaherty's opinion and no one else...right?


The same opinion he had when he promised to balance Ontario's books, yet despite being in good economic times he still managed to leave Ontario with a large deficit of well over 5 billion.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> What a crock of right wingding spin....Simpson has the right of it......mismanagement.....just as Harpo is doing nationally....
> 
> 
> 
> wonderful management......NOT!!
> 
> Jeffrey Simpson: The tragedy of Alberta
> 
> so lucky eh......


You've got it right--they fell victim to the sweet lies of liberalism and spent too much on social programs.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> Might anyone know why the province of Alberta is borrowing money to balance their budget rather than use their Heritage Fund? Please, just legitimate answers and no Alberta-bashing. I am just curious.


The Heritage Trust Fund has been the cash cow throughout the Klein years. It is worth about $14 billion to day. It was worth about $12 billion in 1988. Meager interest rates alone mean it should have at least doubled or tripled in value over the past 25 years. Remember the sky high interest rates of the 80's and early 90's? In 1990 I had to haggle with bank to get a car loan DOWN to 16 3/4 %. Somehow that fund is worth almost exactly the same as it was 25 years ago, less if you factor in the cost of living increases over the same time.

Why? Skimming. It has been treated as a dividend fund by the ruling PC's to make it look like they know how to balance a budget. Any interest would be thrown into general revenues to "balance" the books. Unfortunately $12 to $14 billion today will not buy you what it did in 1993 (20 years ago), considering inflation, so it seems the emperor's clothes are considerably more on display now, with historically low I interest rates. No profit in that trust fund anymore. Furthermore, when King Ralph proclaimed to the press that Alberta was "debt free" and "paid in full" he was lying though his teeth. At the VERY least there were still billions the government owed on the unfunded liability to various pension plans, which would only get worse over time. Ed Stelmach knew this and took steps to actually address the shortfall. 

The new budget-three-ways has been called the worst budget in Alberta history, and there's not much in the Heritage Savings Fund cookie jar to raid this time. So the ruling PC's, instead of trying to collect from resource revenues, rely on the same old trick to make money of cutting funding to the public sector: the one thing our taxes are supposed to pay for. It is pathetic.

And that, Dr. G., is why they're not relying on the Heritage Trust Fund this time. There just ain't enough there. And sales tax? That's for the rest of Canada to deal with. We may be watching our standard of living diminish rapidly, but at least we ain't paying no provincial sales tax.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> ...of cutting funding to the public sector: the one thing our taxes are supposed to pay for. It is pathetic.


My take:

"... cutting funding to the public sector, the sinkhole that absorbs most of our taxes."


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> My take:
> 
> "... cutting funding to the public sector, the sinkhole that absorbs most of our taxes."


If not mainly for social programs like health care and education, what do you think your taxes should be paying for?


----------



## iMouse

fjnmusic said:


> If not mainly for social programs like *health care* and *education*, what do you think your taxes should be paying for?


For a start, coffins would be good.

And maybe workhouses for those too lazy to learn on their own.





( Seriously  )


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> If not mainly for social programs like health care and education, what do you think your taxes should be paying for?


Education, roads, defense, police, courts, primarily. Some support of the truly destitute, such as the chronically sick and disabled.

Seriously, though--with social spending eating up the lion's share of the budget, what do you expect them to cut when money is tight?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Education, roads, defense, police, courts, primarily. Some support of the truly destitute, such as the chronically sick and disabled.
> 
> Seriously, though--with social spending eating up the lion's share of the budget, what do you expect them to cut when money is tight?


I'm in Alberta. I don't expect them to cut. I expect them to charge people a reasonable price who want to extract the non-renewable resources from the ground so they can refine them somewhere else and make a bigger profit. I expect that if we can't afford to not have a sales tax then we ante up, just like every other province and pay a reasonable tax for these basic social programs that we've somehow been able to pay for up until now. What's the point of no sales tax if you have to sacrifice basic necessities in order to boast of your tax-free status?


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> I'm in Alberta. I don't expect them to cut. I expect them to charge people a reasonable price who want to extract the non-renewable resources from the ground so they can refine them somewhere else and make a bigger profit. I expect that if we can't afford to not have a sales tax then we ante up, just like every other province and pay a reasonable tax for these basic social programs that we've somehow been able to pay for up until now. What's the point of no sales tax if you have to sacrifice basic necessities in order to boast of your tax-free status?


"And that, Dr. G., is why they're not relying on the Heritage Trust Fund this time. There just ain't enough there. And sales tax? That's for the rest of Canada to deal with. We may be watching our standard of living diminish rapidly, but at least we ain't paying no provincial sales tax. "

I see your point, fjn. Still, bringing in a sales tax would be the kiss of death in AB for any party that proposed this sort of taxation.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> "And that, Dr. G., is why they're not relying on the Heritage Trust Fund this time. There just ain't enough there. And sales tax? That's for the rest of Canada to deal with. We may be watching our standard of living diminish rapidly, but at least we ain't paying no provincial sales tax. "
> 
> I see your point, fjn. Still, bringing in a sales tax would be the kiss of death in AB for any party that proposed this sort of taxation.


I know, but it's such a false sense of pride. My point is that they don't need to bring in a sales tax, they just need to tax the American companies that want the oil appropriately. Oh sure, people can beak off about the "dirty" oilsands oil, but I don't see anyone using any less gasoline than they used to. But the gov't here are cowards when it comes to American companies.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> What's the point of no sales tax if you have to sacrifice basic necessities in order to boast of your tax-free status?


The social programs aren't basic necessities. They are the price of liberalism creeping into Alberta's conservative culture.



fjnmusic said:


> My point is that they don't need to bring in a sales tax, they just need to tax the American companies that want the oil appropriately.


How much more expensive do you want to make it for the Americans to do business in Alberta? Supply some numbers so we can get a sense of your business case.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The social programs aren't basic necessities. They are the price of liberalism creeping into Alberta's conservative culture.
> 
> 
> 
> How much more expensive do you want to make it for the Americans to do business in Alberta? Supply some numbers so we can get a sense of your business case.


You know, somehow I think no matter what I write, you'll automatically take the opposing view. Don't ask me why, just a hunch. Seeing as I live in Alberta and you don't, I might be in a better to observe what's really going on. Or do you really think Ralph Klein was such a miracle worker? Smoke and mirrors, my friend.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You know, somehow I think no matter what I write, you'll automatically take the opposing view. Don't ask me why, just a hunch. Seeing as I live in Alberta and you don't, I might be in a better to observe what's really going on. Or do you really think Ralph Klein was such a miracle worker? Smoke and mirrors, my friend.


Living in Alberta, you should be better able than I am to answer my question on what you consider appropriate royalty rates.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Living in Alberta, you should be better able than I am to answer my question on what you consider appropriate royalty rates.


I'd prefer if you'd respond to my comments first, but fine, I'll answer your question. I am not an expert by any stretch, but I know that the original deal was that companies would be charged 1% until they became established, and then would bump up to 25% under the old Klein rules in the 90's. However, it was discovered that the government was failing to collect even the 1% royalty rate for fear of antagonizing these American investors. In spite of this, Alberta was still bringing in tons of money, largely because they were budgeting based on $50/barrel oil prices when the reality at the time was much greater than that, so they would end up with a surplus. It was just faulty budgeting, but they'd cook the books and top up with profits from the Heritage Trust Fund. Now I'll wait for you to tell me where i am wrong because that is what you seem to enjoy ding best.

I would guess a rate of 10% or whatever the market will bear is fair and should increase as a company becomes more profitable. I think the companies need the resources more than we need the companies, or at least that would be a good position to strive for. However, companies will always find a way to make themselves appear less profitable than the really are because they hate to pay taxes like everyone else. I have no problem with paying taxes myself provided the taxes are paying for what I was told they would pay for. I have an issue with tax money being used to fund private businesses, for example, or arenas for owners of hockey teams. I have a major problem when taxes go up and the goods and services are cut at the same time. Faulty budgeting one again.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> I know, but it's such a false sense of pride. My point is that they don't need to bring in a sales tax, they just need to tax the American companies that want the oil appropriately. Oh sure, people can beak off about the "dirty" oilsands oil, but I don't see anyone using any less gasoline than they used to. But the gov't here are cowards when it comes to American companies.


All of our oil taken from the offshore of NL goes to American companies and refineries. None of it comes to us, which is why we have some of the highest prices for gasoline in Canada.


----------



## groovetube

there for, whomever we can make a pile of cash from.


----------



## BigDL

IMO too many conservatives are all to willing to sell resources on the cheap with the promise of jobs. 

The major difference between say a Tommy Douglas and a Ralph Klein is the Socialist believes the resources are precious and belong to everyone and their sale should benefit all.:clap: The Conservative believe the resource is developed for the benefit of the capitalist and the only social good possible is jobs, jobs, jobs. :-(


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> there for, whomever we can make a pile of cash from.


We don't even make the top 21.

Here is a rather massive list. I believe Texas alone has all of Canada beat. 

We are, however, allowed to upgrade the raw bitumen due to the cost of shipping the oil sands, and disposing of the tailings.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> IMO too many conservatives are all to willing to sell resources on the cheap with the promise of jobs.
> 
> The major difference between say a Tommy Douglas and a Ralph Klein is the Socialist believes the resources are precious and belong to everyone and their sale should benefit all.:clap: The Conservative believe the resource is developed for the benefit of the capitalist and the only social good possible is jobs, jobs, jobs. :-(


Trickle down economics! Everybody always wins....right?


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> We don't even make the top 21.
> 
> Here is a rather massive list. I believe Texas alone has all of Canada beat.
> 
> We are, however, allowed to upgrade the raw bitumen due to the cost of shipping the oil sands, and disposing of the tailings.


So you'd like someone to build a $16 billion refinery in Canada at who's expense, so we can ship it to...?


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Trickle down economics! Everybody always wins....right?


absolutely! Just everyone let me have all the money, and when I'm feeling a little happy I'll toss some coins out my window.

You just can't make this stuff up!


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I would guess a rate of 10% or whatever the market will bear is fair and should increase as a company becomes more profitable. I think the companies need the resources more than we need the companies, or at least that would be a good position to strive for.


10% of profits?

The rate is determined by the price of oil and the competitiveness of other energy extraction opportunities--that is what the market will bear. Much easier to extract sweeter crude from the Bakken Shale, so feel free to drive them out and take those sticky lumps of peat to the bank and revel in your riches. You need those companies more than they need you.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> 10% of profits?
> 
> The rate is determined by the price of oil and the competitiveness of other energy extraction opportunities--that is what the market will bear. Much easier to extract sweeter crude from the Bakken Shale, so feel free to drive them out and take those sticky lumps of peat to the bank and revel in your riches. You need those companies more than they need you.


Yup, that's about what I'd expect you to say. Clearly you are the authority on this matter. What percent do you think is reasonable?


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Yup, that's about what I'd expect you to say. Clearly you are the authority on this matter. What percent do you think is reasonable?


You haven't even told me yet what you think is reasonable. 10% of what?

When I get that answer, I'll give you my exact answer.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You haven't even told me yet what you think is reasonable. 10% of what?
> 
> When I get that answer, I'll give you my exact answer.


I have already admitted this is not my area of expertise. 10% of profits on whatever sliding 1% to 25% scale Ralph was using. If you know so much, why don't you tell us? You are a coward as well as an expert. Interesting combination.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I have already admitted this is not my area of expertise. 10% of profits on whatever sliding 1% to 25% scale Ralph was using. If you know so much, why don't you tell us? You are a coward as well as an expert. Interesting combination.


Don't reduce yourself to name calling. 

I wasn't the one who said that royalties were inadequate. You made that claim. If you state that they're inadequate, then you need to back up that claim. 

However, the figures you're quoting don't really seem to have much to do with the current royalty arrangements, which are calculated on revenue, not profits.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> You need those companies more than they need you.


Because if we don't let the corporations extract and sell our resources, all that oil will go bad, right? I mean, it's not like we could sell it later or anything. And the value of unexploited resources never goes up...


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Because if we don't let the corporations extract and sell our resources, all that oil will go bad, right? I mean, it's not like we could sell it later or anything. And the value of unexploited resources never goes up...


That's right. In fact, the pressure on fossil fuel prices is somewhat downward. At some point it may no longer be worthwhile to extract them at all--particularly considering the great strides that windmills are making in powering the country.


----------



## bryanc

At which time we'll discover that fresh water is our most valuable resource. Letting corporations hold us ransom for 'jobs' is a fools errand; our resources are valuable and we should not let them be exploited for profits of foreign corporations. If the corporations are paying lots of taxes, employing lots of Canadians, and not damaging the environment, okay... we should allow this. But otherwise, wait 'em out; the resources aren't going anywhere and we should be diversifying our economy anyway.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> At which time we'll discover that fresh water is our most valuable resource. *Letting corporations hold us ransom for 'jobs' is a fools errand;* our resources are valuable and we should not let them be exploited for profits of foreign corporations. If the corporations are paying lots of taxes, employing lots of Canadians, and not damaging the environment, okay... we should allow this. But otherwise, wait 'em out; the resources aren't going anywhere and we should be diversifying our economy anyway.


Absolutely a fool's errand, as the recent pandering to them in tax cuts proved.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Don't reduce yourself to name calling.
> 
> I wasn't the one who said that royalties were inadequate. You made that claim. If you state that they're inadequate, then you need to back up that claim.
> 
> However, the figures you're quoting don't really seem to have much to do with the current royalty arrangements, which are calculated on revenue, not profits.


Sorry I called you a coward. However I am wondering if you will share your wisdom about what a fair rate would be and the method you use to calculate this. I am also wondering how you would respond to my assertion that the only way the Klein conservatives balanced the budget was by raiding the Heritage Fund cookie jar.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Sorry I called you a coward. However I am wondering if you will share your wisdom about what a fair rate would be and the method you use to calculate this. I am also wondering how you would respond to my assertion that the only way the Klein conservatives balanced the budget was by raiding the Heritage Fund cookie jar.


ah the old annoy until you get bit and then the tsk tsk tsk routine.


----------



## screature

*More power for NWT*

Signing with Harper in Yellowknife marks step toward new powers for NWT

This should be a good thing.



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper and N.W.T. Premier Bob McLeod signed a draft agreement at the legislature Monday that marks the end of talks to loosen the territory's ties with Ottawa.
> 
> "The heavy lifting is done. The issues are resolved and negotiators have reached consensus on the terms of a final devolution agreement," Harper told those who were invited to the legislature to mark the occasion.
> 
> *"Our government believes that the opportunities and challenges here would be better handled by the people who understand them best, that is to say, you who live here in the Northwest Territories.
> 
> "Whenever possible you should be making the decisions about regional matters. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what devolution is all about."...*


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> ah the old annoy until you get bit and then the tsk tsk tsk routine.


I can live with myself. I just hate seeing Ralph credited with balancing the budget when he really didn't. There was also never a crisis that warranted the drastic cuts of the 90's.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I can live with myself. I just hate seeing Ralph credited with balancing the budget when he really didn't. There was also never a crisis that warranted the drastic cuts of the 90's.


You mean Martin's cuts to transfer and heath payments?


----------



## bryanc

King Ralph could barely balance a tequila bottle, let alone a budget. Unfortunately, we all knew he was blowing our wealth back in the 90's, but one does not have to do much more than put on a pin identifying oneself as 'conservative' to get elected in Alberta.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Sorry I called you a coward. However I am wondering if you will share your wisdom about what a fair rate would be and the method you use to calculate this. I am also wondering how you would respond to my assertion that the only way the Klein conservatives balanced the budget was by raiding the Heritage Fund cookie jar.



Klein ate up the interest payments from the Heritage Fund, no doubt. The Fund itself remains intact, however. It was certainly one of the ways in which Klein balanced the budget, but not the only way. There simply wasn't enough money in interest payments on the Fund to do that.

I believe that the current royalty regime is fair and competitive with other North American jurisdictions, particularly in the way in which it takes per barrel prices into consideration: 

http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/OilSands/pdfs/OScurveRate.pdf

However, increasing royalty rates to increase provincial revenues is a poor choice, since it would actually affect production decisions. For example, raising royalties would cause producers to abandon marginal wells that could still produce oil and create additional provincial revenues. 

Competitive royalty rates also result in better bonus bids for the province's oil leases without affecting production decisions. Raise royalty rates and bonus bids would drop.

It's all about maintaining the highest possible level of government revenue without reducing production levels. You can't control the world price of oil or where resource companies choose to operate, so only establishing royalties competitive with other North American markets can maximize revenue.

Although lowering royalty rates _might_ lead to increased revenue, I would be worried that an overheated Alberta energy market would increase the costs of production significantly enough to reduce overall government revenues.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Klein ate up the interest payments from the Heritage Fund, no doubt. The Fund itself remains intact, however. It was certainly one of the ways in which Klein balanced the budget, but not the only way. There simply wasn't enough money in interest payments on the Fund to do that.
> 
> I believe that the current royalty regime is fair and competitive with other North American jurisdictions, particularly in the way in which it takes per barrel prices into consideration:
> 
> http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/OilSands/pdfs/OScurveRate.pdf
> 
> However, increasing royalty rates to increase provincial revenues is a poor choice, since it would actually affect production decisions. For example, raising royalties would cause producers to abandon marginal wells that could still produce oil and create additional provincial revenues.
> 
> Competitive royalty rates also result in better bonus bids for the province's oil leases without affecting production decisions. Raise royalty rates and bonus bids would drop.
> 
> It's all about maintaining the highest possible level of government revenue without reducing production levels. You can't control the world price of oil or where resource companies choose to operate, so only establishing royalties competitive with other North American markets can maximize revenue.
> 
> Although lowering royalty rates _might_ lead to increased revenue, I would be worried that an overheated Alberta energy market would increase the costs of production significantly enough to reduce overall government revenues.


I'll take your word on royalty rates since you seem to know more than I do. I do recall that the PC government was not collecting on whatever the rate was, even when it was only 1%, so the fact that Alberta was making so much on whatever little royalties it was actually collecting was more a testament to how much the oil was a desirable commodity. It was also a testament to how much we were giving away the farm by lowering the royalty rate to 1% to attract business in the first place. But with the threat of increased royalties, many companies threatened to go elsewhere. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? And now we've essentially painted ourselves into a corner.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I do recall that the PC government was not collecting on whatever the rate was, even when it was only 1%, so the fact that Alberta was making so much on whatever little royalties it was actually collecting was more a testament to how much the oil was a desirable commodity. It was also a testament to how much we were giving away the farm by lowering the royalty rate to 1% to attract business in the first place.


Much of that was before extraction technology had been perfected. Perhaps it was too low, but many people doubted that the oil sands were ever going to be commercially viable at one point.



fjnmusic said:


> But with the threat of increased royalties, many companies threatened to go elsewhere. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? And now we've essentially painted ourselves into a corner.


I don't expect any resource company to stay for the good of their health. They certainly aren't getting that milk for free! Alberta crude is a tough commodity to extract, so adding heavy royalties will convince them to scale back unless oil prices are sky high.

On the other hand, I expect the provincial government to collect on royalties. However, the Alberta government is currently making significant strides to collect every red cent of royalties owed to it.

If Alberta were the only game in town, I would have a different view on royalties, but between unconventional shale oil, Newfoundland and other sources, a competitive royalty regimen is the best way to maximize government revenue.

The notion of building full scale tertiary refineries in Alberta is also an economic non-starter. The point of the Keystone pipeline is to use up _excess_ refining capacity on the Gulf Coast in a shipping location that has access to the best markets for the stuff. Alberta is looking to build refineries that will improve the grade of the oil and make it easier for it to flow to the end refiners. I think that's a good thing.


----------



## Dr.G.

Marc Garneau dropping out of Liberal leadership race - Politics - CBC News

Interesting and somewhat sad. I actually liked him and thought his chances were good.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Marc Garneau dropping out of Liberal leadership race - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Interesting and somewhat sad. I actually liked him and thought his chances were good.



I am surprised and although I was not a fan of his politics anything to stop the train wreck of JT would be a good thing.


----------



## screature

Language wars: Quebec unions share ‘horror stories’ of civil servants who used bilingualism to help citizens



> As hearings began Tuesday into Quebec’s proposed tightening of its language law, the main union representing provincial civil servants had some horror stories to share about life on the frontlines.
> 
> The details were so shocking that employees’ names and workplaces were withheld to protect them from possible repercussions, the Syndicat de la fonction publique et parapublique du Québec (SFPQ) wrote in a brief tabled at the National Assembly.
> 
> There was the perfectly bilingual clerk at Revenue Quebec who frequently meets people who are more at ease discussing their tax questions in English. The clerk prefers to go along rather than turn “a tax problem into a language debate” and possibly spark a complaint.
> 
> There was a technician dealing in benefits who was asked to submit an English version of a form to a Quebec-based company because its payroll department was in Winnipeg, and staff there did not understand French.
> 
> Then there was the clerk at the rental board who frequently deals with people unable to understand decisions in their files because they are written in French. He takes it upon himself to translate important passages into English on the spot.
> 
> If these sound like examples of civil servants serving the taxpayers who pay their salaries, the SFPQ wants you to think again.
> 
> “What emerges from these few testimonials is the obligation for frontline staff to provide services in English under pressure from citizens,” the union wrote. “While they should feel supported by their immediate superiors [in insisting on working in French], employees fear the warnings and penalties that could follow.”...
> 
> Ms. Martineau’s view of the civil service as a linguistic battleground contrasted with a presentation that followed from mayors of two Montreal suburbs fearful Bill 14 would strip their towns of official bilingual status. That would deprive them of the right to communicate automatically in English with citizens, post bilingual signs and draft bilingual bylaws.
> 
> Anthony Housefather, Mayor of Côte Saint-Luc, told the committee that Quebec enjoys a linguistic peace that it is best left unstirred.
> 
> “I can tell you that if someone tried to come to Côte Saint-Luc to touch our bilingual status and say we are going to lose our bilingual status, you are going to have chaos, you are going to have opposition that you cannot even imagine with people in the streets and you are going to lose the linguistic peace,” he said.


The first three comments following the article are bang on.



> This kind of paranoia doesn't belong in this country. Ottawa must decide what kind of nation is Canada that would allow the French speaking to practice such oppression and racism. Cut the cord or intervene - basic human rights being denied. Absolutely disgusting.





> This is definitely unique. No other Western state would allow such nonsense to take place without the U.N. howling in protest. We are reaping our rewards for decades of continuous appeasement of Quebecers.





> The UN is curiously silent on this. It seems to be the only thing they don't have a complaint about with Canada.


It is interesting that the UN "Food Provocateur" sticks his nose into our internal affairs but when it comes such blatant abuses of fundamental rights they remain silent. 

I mean at least the Feds have an excuse because they have to appease Quebec to keep it within the family fold but you would think some one at the UN would have the balls to call a spade a spade.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The UN has larger problems to deal with. I would be quite surprised if the minority PQ can force their full agenda on the province. I would be more inclined to solicit the opinion of Canadian and international businesses that conduct business in Quebec. The Anglo enclaves in the province are certainly making their voices heard. 

Something to be mindful of if you're an Anglo Quebecer but it's great the PQ didn't get a majority. I think this will blow over, but as per normal language is a crucible in the province.


----------



## iMouse

Perhaps the objective is to drive the remaining English out, the ones that stayed-behind during the last mass exodus?

If you can't get the vote results you want, you modify the Electorate.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

error


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *The UN has larger problems to deal with.* I would be quite surprised if the minority PQ can force their full agenda on the province. I would be more inclined to solicit the opinion of Canadian and international businesses that conduct business in Quebec. The Anglo enclaves in the province are certainly making their voices heard.
> 
> Something to be mindful of if you're an Anglo Quebecer but it's great the PQ didn't get a majority. I think this will blow over, but as per normal language is a crucible in the province.


:lmao: Like coming to one of the richest nations in the world to check up on how well we eat.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> :lmao: Like coming to one of the richest nations in the world to check up on how well we eat.


Agreed as the post clearly states.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Agreed as the post clearly states.


I was being facetious.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> I was being facetious.


Clearly facetious, or subtly facetious? There's a clear difference, even though it may be subtle.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Clearly facetious, or subtly facetious? There's a clear difference, even though it may be subtle.


Well I thought it was clearly facetious... but then again that may have been only in my own mind.

Unlike any food related shortages that exist in Canada where they exist as a matter of non-deliberate policy to bring about those shortages, the PQ deliberately via *direct public policy *seeks to deprive non-French speaking Quebecers of some of their fundamental rights and freedoms.

So from a public policy perspective, the situation in Quebec is one of an *overt and deliberate* attempt to restrict the rights and freedoms of minorities whereas any food shortages that exist in Canada come from a *lack of or inadequate* public policy to effectively address the issue and the responsibility for those shortages extend across all jurisdictions, municipal, provincial and federal and not from any deliberate attempt (public policy) to make a minority suffer food shortages.

Big difference and if the UN is going to stick their nose into our affairs then should also look at the deliberate policies of a provincial government that limits the rights and freedoms of the provinces minorities. 

Maybe if the PQ government was chastised by the UN for some of policies as deliberately depriving some of their citizens of some of their rights and freedoms they would think twice. I actually doubt it but it would be nice to see the Quebec government get a scolding from the UN on the national and international stage.


----------



## screature

More crap out of Quebec, at least this time it isn't the PQ but Quebec Solidaire.

A convicted murderer and an unrepentant terrorist, pockets of Quebec still view Paul Rose as a folk hero



> He was a kidnapper, a convicted murderer and an unrepentant terrorist who helped orchestrate one of the darkest events in modern Canadian history, but even in the final months of his life Paul Rose was being feted by cheering crowds in Quebec.
> 
> And now a party in Quebec’s National Assembly wants to honour him...
> 
> Quebec Solidaire, a separatist political party with two seats in Quebec’s National Assembly, in a Thursday statement offered condolences to Paul Rose’s family, without one mention of Rose’s status as a convicted murderer.
> 
> Amir Khadir, one of two members of the Quebec solidaire, promises to table a motion in the national assembly to that effect next week.
> 
> “You can share the reservations he had about his past in the FLQ, but no one can question his sincerity, his devotion, his integrity, his intellectual honesty,” Mr. Khadir told The Canadian Press when asked about Rose’s death...
> 
> In 2010, at the 40th anniversary of the October Crisis, former National Assembly member Raymond Garneau said that to “see the assassin Paul Rose interviewed on the CBC French network, one could believe that murderers were victims and victims murderers.”
> 
> True to form, on Thursday Radio Canada reported “that the activist, political scientist and trade unionist” Paul Rose had died.
> 
> Even Le Devoir, the Montreal newspaper at which Pierre Laporte had worked as a reformist-minded parliament correspondent in the 1950s, on Thursday eulogized Rose as a “prominent figure in the history of contemporary Quebec.”


Makes me sick.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> More crap out of Quebec, at least this time it isn't the PQ but Quebec Solidaire.
> 
> A convicted murderer and an unrepentant terrorist, pockets of Quebec still view Paul Rose as a folk hero
> 
> Makes me sick.


This is standard operating procedure for the left. Doesn't matter what you've done, all is forgiven, provided your intentions were good.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> This is standard operating procedure for the left. Doesn't matter what you've done, all is forgiven, provided your intentions were good.


Expressed another way, history is written by the winners.....the problem is history isn't finite. When I was in high school Louis Riel was a traitor, now we have statutes of him....time is an interesting writer of history, this may prove to be another example.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Expressed another way, history is written by the winners.....the problem is history isn't finite. When I was in high school Louis Riel was a traitor, now we have statutes of him....time is an interesting writer of history, *this may prove to be another example*.


I certainly hope not.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> This is standard operating procedure for the left. Doesn't matter what you've done, all is forgiven, provided your intentions were good.


lol at this being something only the "left" does.


----------



## bryanc

i-rui said:


> lol at this being something only the "left" does.


I LOL at almost everything MF says about the "left."


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> I LOL at almost everything MF says about the "left."


According to MF the only thing left is he's always right.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> lol at this being something only the "left" does.


It's significantly different from the right, which doesn't claim vindication by intention. Those on the right most often declare that the theory behind what they did was correct, but the real world didn't co-operate. They tend to intellectualize their bad behaviour.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It's significantly different from the right, which doesn't claim vindication by intention. Those on the right most often declare that the theory behind what they did was correct, but the real world didn't co-operate. They tend to intellectualize their bad behaviour.


Just as out of touch with reality, in other words.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Just as out of touch with reality, in other words.


Yes.


----------



## iMouse

> *Amir Khadir,* one of two members of the Québec solidaire, promises to table a motion in the national assembly to that effect next week


Is he a Sunni or a Shia Quebecois??


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> Is he a Sunni or a Shia Quebecois??


It boggles the mind...


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I LOL at almost everything MF says about the "left."


Never mind that the actions of the Harper government laughs out loud at him as well :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Speaking of laughing out loud, many are watching as Mulcair continues to self destruct as the NDP leader and as a Canadian:

Editorial: Shame on you, Mr. Mulcair

Bob Rae: Keystone XL oil pipeline is ‘national interest’


----------



## BigDL

Wow! The conservatives are sure worried about Mulcair. Our Glorious Leader and his Minister of deficit are laying the ground work to blame the NDP for their next budget on Thursday.


----------



## BigDL

I wonder! How will Our Glorious Leader blame the NDP or is it the Liberals in this case? 

The Conservatives managed 28 violations of the Election's Act with illegal contributions in the neighbourhood of over $46,000 that accounted for about 50% spending over and above the legal limit to steal the seat in Labrador.

Peter Penashue campaign took in 28 ineligible contributions - Politics - CBC News

Perhaps we shall hear the details of other Conservative stolen election(s).


----------



## groovetube

not to worry, less split the vote the more Justin will pick up.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It seems there are sober second thoughts about the Paul Rose celebrations -

Québec solidaire's Amir Khadir drops plan for legislature tribute to late FLQ member Paul Rose


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I find this chilling -

Harper government mum on why Vancouver immigration raid was filmed by TV crew


----------



## groovetube

wow.



> Simon Fraser University criminologist Neil Boyd said Friday that no one is questioning whether the government should be going after undocumented migrant workers.
> 
> “What’s offensive about this approach is that it attempts to make entertainment out of the embarrassment and misery of these individuals.”


I'm guessing this will fly over many people's heads.


----------



## iMouse

I'm guessing that it makes for more compelling television than the:

House of Comics, 
House of Con Men, 
House of Consummate Liars, 
House of Corruption, 
House of Comatose, ...​_
Please feel free to an to this list by quoting the latest rendering, and add your own input, if you feel like it. 

Ridicule won't help, but we might feel better about it._


----------



## i-rui

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I find this chilling -
> 
> Harper government mum on why Vancouver immigration raid was filmed by TV crew


Sun TV has to get their programming from somewhere...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Sun TV has to get their programming from somewhere...


It is isn't being filmed for Sun TV, as the article says:



> The show, which premiered in September, was *produced for Shaw Media’s National Geographic channel*.


I wonder what the reaction was to the program (on which this one is based) that was produced in Australia.

There are plenty of "Cops" shows out there, starting with the original "Cops" and also a plethora of "Animal Cops" shows in cities across the US made for the "Animal Planet" network. So it isn't like this is anything new.

Is it offensive only because it is a conservative government that allowed for the filming to take place?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It seems there are sober second thoughts about the Paul Rose celebrations -
> 
> Québec solidaire's Amir Khadir drops plan for legislature tribute to late FLQ member Paul Rose


Good news.


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> It is isn't being filmed for Sun TV, as the article says:


My, you are literal, aren't you.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> My, you are literal, aren't you.


"Just the facts Mam, just the facts..."


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It is isn't being filmed for Sun TV, as the article says:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the reaction was to the program (on which this one is based) that was produced in Australia.
> 
> There are plenty of "Cops" shows out there, starting with the original "Cops" and also a plethora of "Animal Cops" shows in cities across the US made for the "Animal Planet" network. So it isn't like this is anything new.
> 
> Is it offensive only because it is a conservative government that allowed for the filming to take place?


They didn't just allow it, they funded it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Jaw dropping this is:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/16/bc-border-security-cbsa-agreement.html


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Jaw dropping this is:
> 
> Toews approved TV show filming B.C. immigration raids - Politics - CBC News


Reality TV comes to Canada.


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Jaw dropping this is:
> 
> Toews approved TV show filming B.C. immigration raids - Politics - CBC News


Howcum whenever my gut reaction is: That is slimy! It turns out that Toews is in it up to his eyeballs.


----------



## groovetube

As much as I really dislike Toews, let's remember, this is a really top down government, so you know, Harper had his strong say in this initiative.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Howcum whenever my gut reaction is: That is slimy! It turns out that Toews is in it up to his eyeballs.





groovetube said:


> As much as I really dislike Toews, let's remember, this is a really top down government, so you know, Harper had his strong say in this initiative.


Ahhhh we are talking slither down slime.


----------



## iMouse

I believe is called *The Trickle-Down ***** theory.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> They didn't just allow it, they funded it.


Show me where is says that aside from:


> critics who say the show, which films agents arresting drug smugglers and “phoney immigrants,” is a taxpayer-funded attempt to promote the Conservatives’ law-and-order agenda.


Nowhere is there actually any factual information that documents it is in fact the case. I looked at the CBC story as well and cannot find anywhere that it said the program is funded by the government so if you have a link that actually states that as a fact and not a simple accusation by critics please post it.


----------



## groovetube

And this is why the ministers are stonewalling questions regarding the costs (to taxpayers), not one direct answer.

What you don't see, won't upset you. 

I don't buy this for a second, given Harper's track record on spending huge sums to promote his government.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> And this is why the ministers are stonewalling questions regarding the costs (to taxpayers), not one direct answer.
> 
> What you don't see, won't upset you.
> 
> I don't buy this for a second, given Harper's track record on spending huge sums to promote his government.


Well anyone can believe anything they want... without facts to back it up it is pretty much meaningless accusations and innuendo.

I am simply giving you the opportunity to post a link that validates your statement, I'm not saying it isn't correct but I have thus far seen nothing that proves your statements veracity.

You would expect no less of me or others and you would be correct in doing so.


----------



## fjnmusic

Innuendo: an Italian suppository.


----------



## screature

^^^ :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Federal budget 2013: Cuts undermine Environment Canada

Perhaps if our "here for Canadians" government wasn't so busy spending millions and millions of dollars on the current adscam du jour, there'd be funds to continue protecting us from this.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Federal budget 2013: Cuts undermine Environment Canada
> 
> Perhaps if our "here for Canadians" government wasn't so busy spending millions and millions of dollars on the current adscam du jour, there'd be funds to continue protecting us from this.


And had they left Afghanistan when originally promised they would not be mired in deficit.


----------



## SINC

Thomas Mulcair’s Keystone rhetoric based on ideological assumptions | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Well anyone can believe anything they want... without facts to back it up it is pretty much meaningless accusations and innuendo.


This is exactly why Harper government is so busy cutting the budgets of every scientific and other public research program in Canada. If we have no facts, they can justify their policies however they like.


----------



## eMacMan

Even Mulcair gets it right once in a while. Thanks to Don for the link.



> NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair says an American-born man who Conservative MP Jason Kenney accused of being a former Black Panther and a “cop shooter” should be allowed to reunite with his family in Canada.
> 
> 
> On a recent visit to Washington, D.C., Mulcair met with Gary Freeman, who in 2008 was extradited to the U.S. for the 1969 incident, in which an officer was shot in the arm. Freeman had been living in Canada under an alias.
> 
> 
> Freeman pleaded guilty to aggravated assault for the shooting.
> 
> 
> After serving a 30-day sentence, he was denied re-entry into Canada where his wife and four children live.
> 
> 
> Citizenship and Immigration Canada has said Freeman has no right of return and is barred from the country because he is considered a violent criminal.
> 
> 
> Freeman has denied being a member of the Black Panthers -- a militant black power group that ceased operating in the mid-’70s.
> 
> 
> 
> “The Black Panther slur is a hoax,” Mulcair told CTV’s Question Period on Sunday. “It’s the same thing as the slur that, unjustifiably, Jason Kenney threw at Mr. Freeman from the House of Commons. He said he was a cop killer. That was completely false.”
> 
> 
> Although Kenney called Freeman a “cop killer” in the House, he later said he should have called him a “cop shooter.”
> 
> 
> Before Freeman was deported to the U.S. to face trial in the shooting, he had spent nearly four decades in Canada raising his family and working in a Toronto public library.
> 
> 
> “He represented no threat to anyone,” Mulcair said.
> 
> 
> Pointing to the case of former media mogul Conrad Black, Mulcair said the Conservatives have shown a double standard.
> 
> 
> Ottawa granted Black a one-year temporary resident permit, valid until early May, 2013, despite the fact he gave up his citizenship more than a decade ago and has since served jail time in Florida for fraud and obstruction of justice.
> 
> 
> *“We would look at these two very different approaches in two cases that have a lot of similarities,” Mulcair said. “If you’re allowed to pay your debt to society, which is the conclusion they came to for Mr. Black, why wouldn’t Mr. Freeman be entitled to the same thing?*
> 
> 
> “The government owes us an answer to that.”


Mulcair pledges support for convicted 'cop shooter' Gary Freeman | CTV News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another sad example of top down interference:

Harper's communications unit bigfoots Parks Canada news conference


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> This is exactly why Harper government is so busy cutting the budgets of every scientific and other public research program in Canada. If we have no facts, they can justify their policies however they like.


Because with out government-funded research, facts cease to exist!! In fact, facts only came into existence with the birth of modern, large governments!


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Because with out government-funded research, facts cease to exist!


Obviously not. But without publicly funded research, we won't discover any facts corporations or their political puppets don't find it useful for us to know.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Obviously not. But *without publicly funded research, we won't discover any facts corporations or their political puppets don't find it useful for us to know*.


Right, so how did Newton, Galileo, Currie, Einstein, etc., etc., etc. manage to discover any facts... What a false statement that is, I mean seriously you *should* know better.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Right, so how did Newton, Galileo, Currie, Einstein, etc., etc., etc. manage to discover any facts... What a false statement that is, I mean seriously you *should* know better.


These days, it's increasingly difficult to be a gentleman scientist. (And in some areas, because of the equipment requirements, it's near-impossible.)

Gentleman scientist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> These days, it's increasingly difficult to be a gentleman scientist. (And in some areas, because of the equipment requirements, it's near-impossible.)
> 
> Gentleman scientist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The point being private funds exist and are available for those with fund raising hootspa it is not necessary for the government to fund basic research.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> The point being private funds exist and are available for those with fund raising hootspa it is not necessary for the government to fund basic research.


Except that not all research questions are interesting to private funders. 

And fundraising chutzpah is not necessarily a complementary skill of research.


----------



## bryanc

I spend a ridiculous proportion of my time applying for grants, writing progress reports for grants I've won, serving on grant evaluation committees, doing accounting for the various grant budgets, etc. as it is, and I have zero private funding (there is essentially no private research funding for the basic biology research I do). If I had to go fundraising, I'd have no time to do the research.

If we let the holy Free Market (Peace Be Upon It) dictate funding for research, basic scientific research would essentially stop. Basic research is expensive, and the vast majority of what is discovered is of no practical use unless it can be interpreted in the context of *a whole lot* of other painstakingly collected data. Consequently, until you invest billions (and many researchers lives), you don't get much pay off. And even when you do get a big pay off, it may not be an economically valuable pay off (discovering exoplanets and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background is awesome, but it doesn't pay the rent)... indeed, it may be the opposite of an economic pay off (discovering that our use of DDT is destroying ecosystems was obviously important, but it meant that industry had to switch to more expensive ways of doing agriculture).

But seeking knowledge is fundamentally part of what defines us as a species. And the fact is that the frequency with which scientific exploration uncovers principles that can be turned into technology or useful policy is high enough that it pays for itself a thousand times over. The fact that it's ultimately very good for our economy is not why we should do it, but it is nice icing on the cake.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another sad example of top down interference:
> 
> Harper's communications unit bigfoots Parks Canada news conference


Where's that like button again. +1

The manner in which the Harper Conservative act is disgraceful. They shoot the bull, stonewall, lie and act dishonourably on a continuing basis. 

Again we see they grabbed credit where little credit was their due. After this disgrace they refused to supply the evidence of their misdeeds. 

Only when threatened with another official disgrace do they relent and provide the information that is required to be released as should be forth coming in a open and honest way.

Shooting the bull, stonewalling, lying and act dishonourably on a continuing basis is the same method of operation for Peter Panashue and his departure from the Harper Government.

 To Meet Deadline Penashue Warned To Get Filing Done.

The Harper Conservatives continue to supply Plausible Culpability with regard to wide spread election fraud. We await for charges with regard to Pierre Poutine or official word from Elections on the MP Dean Del Mastro case.


----------



## bryanc

Not only micromanaging the Parks Canada announcement and rewriting the speeches etc. to take credit for work they actively opposed, in typical Haper-style transparency, they broke their own laws to try to keep this from being reported...


> The Canadian Press requested the access-to-information documents in October 2011, but the agency violated legislated deadlines, delivering 915 pages only last week in response to a complaint to the information commissioner of Canada.


.


----------



## groovetube

not all research can be all put into one pot and funded by private (interests...) sources.

My point is, why is this government wasting untold hundreds of millions with adscam, gazebos, and god knows what else when they have to cut something I WANT my tax dollars going towards for the good of us people.

How on earth can anyone who claims to be remotely for freedom would be so supportive of the biggest bloat of government and spending in Canadian history, be justifying this so swiftly is truly, a mystery.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another sad example of top down interference:
> 
> Harper's communications unit bigfoots Parks Canada news conference





BigDL said:


> Where's that like button again. +1
> 
> The manner in which the Harper Conservative act is disgraceful. They shoot the bull, stonewall, lie and act dishonourably on a continuing basis.


So what exactly is so offensive about this:



> Harper Government Introduces New Legislation to Protect Sable Island National Park Reserve
> 
> Halifax, Nova Scotia, February 12, 2013 --* The Honourable Peter Kent, Canada’s Minister of Environment and Minister responsible for Parks Canada, today announced that a bill to formally protect Sable Island National Parks Reserve under the Canada National Parks Act has been tabled in the Senate of Canada.*
> 
> *“The Government of Canada is proud to table the Expansion and Conservation of Canada's National Parks Act which will ensure the highest level of protection for Sable Island, its majestic horses, expansive dunes and abundant flora and fauna,” said Minister Kent. “With the passing of this legislation, Sable Island will be protected for present and future generations under the Canada National Parks Act, our country’s strongest legislation for the protection of natural areas.”*
> 
> An iconic windswept crescent of sand and one of Canada’s furthest offshore islands, Sable Island is famous for its wild horses, shipwrecks and countless species of birds and plants. *A unique treasure, Sable Island holds a special place in the hearts and minds of Nova Scotians and Canadians, and has inspired artists and writers locally, across the country and internationally.*
> 
> In October 2011, Minister Kent and the Honourable Darrell Dexter, Premier of Nova Scotia, signed the Memorandum of Agreement *to create a National Park at Sable Island. The proposed bill is the final step in the designation of the island for protection under the Canada National Parks Act.*
> 
> “The people of Nova Scotia have long held Sable Island as an integral part of their maritime heritage so we are pleased to see its protection as a national park is moving forward,” said The Honourable Charlie Parker, Minister of Natural Resources and Minister of Energy for Nova Scotia. “*The national park designation will give Sable Island the highest level of protection of its natural and cultural features for present and future generations.”*
> 
> *“Establishing Sable Island as a national park reserve further builds on Parks Canada’s successes in expanding Canada’s system of protected places,” said Minister Kent. “Through our consultations with the Mi’kmaq, the public and key stakeholders, Canadians have told us overwhelmingly that they support the designation of Sable Island as a national park reserve.”
> 
> Parks Canada works to ensure Canada’s historic and natural heritage is protected and invites Canadians and people around the world to engage in personal moments of inspiring discovery at our treasured natural and historic places. Parks Canada’s network now includes 44 national parks, 167 national historic sites, and four national marine conservation areas. Since 2006, the Government of Canada has taken actions to add 147,639 square kilometres to Parks Canada's network of protected areas. As a result, this would increase the total land and water that comes under our stewardship by more than half.*


Oh... I know it is because a conservative government is doing it.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Not only micromanaging the Parks Canada announcement and rewriting the speeches etc. *to take credit for work they actively opposed*, in typical Haper-style transparency, they broke their own laws to try to keep this from being reported...
> .


What are you referring to?


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I spend a ridiculous proportion of my time applying for grants, writing progress reports for grants I've won, serving on grant evaluation committees, doing accounting for the various grant budgets, etc. as it is, and I have zero private funding (there is essentially no private research funding for the basic biology research I do). If I had to go fundraising, I'd have no time to do the research.
> 
> If we let the holy Free Market (Peace Be Upon It) dictate funding for research, basic scientific research would essentially stop. Basic research is expensive, and the vast majority of what is discovered is of no practical use unless it can be interpreted in the context of *a whole lot* of other painstakingly collected data. Consequently, until you invest billions (and many researchers lives), you don't get much pay off. And even when you do get a big pay off, it may not be an economically valuable pay off (discovering exoplanets and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background is awesome, but it doesn't pay the rent)... indeed, it may be the opposite of an economic pay off (discovering that our use of DDT is destroying ecosystems was obviously important, but it meant that industry had to switch to more expensive ways of doing agriculture).
> 
> But seeking knowledge is fundamentally part of what defines us as a species. And the fact is that the frequency with which scientific exploration uncovers principles that can be turned into technology or useful policy is high enough that it pays for itself a thousand times over. The fact that it's ultimately very good for our economy is not why we should do it, but it is nice icing on the cake.


You just don't like the changes because the directive is to put more dollars toward applied research, so it affects you personally. The fact is science funding has increased under this government, it just isn't going to fund your research so you are pissed about it... you and those others that do basic research who are your friends and colleagues.

I would think that in a recessionary period it would only make sense for a government to put research dollars into research that could lead to jobs and economic benefit to the country in the relatively short term and not researchers pet projects.

When the economy improves we can shift funding dollars to more long term basic research. It is just pragmatic from a public policy stand point.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You just don't like the changes because the directive is to put more dollars toward applied research, so it affects you personally. The fact is science funding has increased under this government, it just isn't going to fund your research so you are pissed about it... you and those others that do basic research who are your friends and colleagues.
> 
> *I would think that in a recessionary period it would only make sense for a government to put research dollars into research that could lead to jobs and economic benefit to the country in the relatively short term and not researchers pet projects.
> 
> When the economy improves we can shift funding dollars to more long term basic research. It is just pragmatic from a public policy stand point.*


I would almost buy this line of reasoning, except the Harper government has not shown any restraint in spending huge sums of money in it's own pet projects as I mentioned earlier.

The amount of money I see being cut in these important researches that benefit us, the taxpayer, is much smaller than what I see them wasting.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I would almost buy this line of reasoning, except the Harper government has not shown any restraint in spending huge sums of money in it's own pet projects as I mentioned earlier.
> 
> The amount of money I see being cut in these important researches that benefit us, the taxpayer, is much smaller than what I see them wasting.


I agree that the whole advertising campaign on the Economic Action Plan is a waste of money.

But it is questionable (because the economic benefits for any given basic research is fundamentally an unknown) that "these important researches that benefit *us*". *What we do know* is that the funding *benefits the researchers* carrying out the basic research.


----------



## groovetube

Research that looks into clean air and water, isn't really something that has a direct economic benefit. For instance, isn't the research center they're closing down part of what discovered the huge ozone hole problem? I don't consider that, to be money just for the benefit of researchers at al!

That's how it benefits 'us'. It benefits us humans who have to breathe the air and drink the water. I suppose you can say that will indirectly affect things economically, if more and more people succumb to polluted air and water, and other environmental problems. 

That part of things, is, well proven imo.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Research that looks into clean air and water*, isn't really something that has a direct economic benefit. For instance, isn't the research center they're closing down part of what discovered the huge ozone hole problem? I don't consider that, to be money just for the benefit of researchers at al!
> 
> That's how it benefits 'us'. It benefits us humans who have to breathe the air and drink the water. I suppose you can say that will indirectly affect things economically, if more and more people succumb to polluted air and water, and other environmental problems.
> 
> That part of things, is, well proven imo.


I can't comment on what you are referring to because you haven't provided a link to illustrate/validate what you are talking about. 

I am not saying that you are incorrect in your statement but without supporting evidence (a link to what you are talking about) I have no means of entering into a dialogue with you on the matter you raise.

Lots of issues of public policy (because there are just so many) don't cross my radar... 

So if you could provide a link to what you are talking about I may be able to comment but as it is now all I can say is I have no comment due to a lack of information/knowledge on my part.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> But it is questionable (because the economic benefits for any given basic research is fundamentally an unknown) that "these important researches that benefit *us*". *What we do know* is that the funding *benefits the researchers* carrying out the basic research.


I'm of the very general opinion that knowing things is usually better than not knowing things. And that there is an societal benefit in encouraging the pursuit of knowledge at many levels.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I'm of the very general opinion that knowing things is usually better than not knowing things. And that there is an societal benefit in encouraging the pursuit of knowledge at many levels.


And I don't disagree. And this is ongoing.

To be clear, the funding of basic research in Canada is ongoing, it is just that the focus of research dollars has been shifted to applied research as opposed to basic research.

Again, science funding has increased under the current government, just more dollars are being applied to research that may in the short term produce, as the slogan goes (which unfortunately and wastefully has been beaten to death) jobs and economic prosperity.

Once again, I think in a prolonged period of recession and slow economic growth it is simply pragmatic public policy to put more dollars into applied research than basic research, more economic bang (Big or otherwise ) for the buck so to speak.

When we, and the world, are in a more stable economic phase the funding dollars can be adjusted accordingly back to basic research.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> You just don't like the changes because the directive is to put more dollars toward applied research


Applied research is almost an oxymoron. This is exactly the sort of thing that industry and private interests _will_ fund.



> The fact is science funding has increased under this government


That's news to me; link?

Regardless of spin, NSERC's Discovery grant's program, which is the primary source of funding for all the natural sciences and engineering research in Canada was funded to the tune of $414M in 2009, $402M in 2010, $357M in 2011, $342M in 2012, and the most recent budget announced a further $30M cut, brining us down to $312M for 2013. Compare that to the NSF budget of $6.87B or the federal support of basic science in any G20 country to see how we compare.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> And I don't disagree. And this is ongoing.
> 
> To be clear, the funding of basic research in Canada is ongoing, it is just that the focus of research dollars has been shifted to applied research as opposed to basic research.
> 
> Again, science funding has increased under the current government, just more dollars are being applied to research that may in the short term produce, as the slogan goes (which unfortunately and wastefully has been beaten to death) jobs and economic prosperity.
> 
> Once again, I think in a prolonged period of recession and slow economic growth it is simply pragmatic public policy to put more dollars into applied research than basic research, more economic bang (Big or otherwise ) for the buck so to speak.
> 
> When we, and the world, are in a more stable economic phase the funding dollars can be adjusted accordingly back to basic research.


I too would be interested in more information on how science funding has been increased.

There are many sources on the research station that helped discover the large ozone hole that is being closed, because a mere 2 million can't be found. 

'Science and sovereignty' key to new Arctic research centre - Politics - CBC News

What's interesting in this article, is how the new research station, which costs hundreds of millions more to build then fund, seems to have a focus on 'resource development'. The oh yeah! Climate change too... seems quite suspect, and I don't trust this government.

If you watch very carefully, it's quite clear to anyone I think, no matter what your political leanings that the Harper government is not interested in scientific findings getting in the way of economic development (read, corporate profits...), with this carrot of, jobs.

I don't care what stripe of government we're talking about. I'd be saying the same things if it were the liberals.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> *Applied research is almost an oxymoron.* This is exactly the sort of thing that industry and private interests _will_ fund.


Nonesense IMO. We couldn't be conversing right now in the manner in which we are if it weren't for applied research. That statement is pure bunk IMO and only belies your own personal interest.



bryanc said:


> That's news to me; link?


I will have to get back to you tomorrow as I don't have access to the information right now.



bryanc said:


> Regardless of spin, NSERC's Discovery grant's program, which is the primary source of funding for all the natural sciences and engineering research in Canada was *funded to the tune of $414M in 2009, $402M in 2010, $357M in 2011, $342M in 2012, and the most recent budget announced a further $30M cut, brining us down to $312M for 2013. Compare that to the NSF budget of $6.87B or the federal support of basic science in any G20 country to see how we compare.*


Yup right right within the time-line of recession and slow economic growth. Not in the least bit surprising IMO.

Yeah and low and behold look where we are economically compared to the rest of the G20. Your protest only provides evidence that the current government is on the right economic path when it comes to science funding in these times.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Yeah and low and behold look where we are economically compared to the rest of the G20. Your protest only provides evidence that the current government is on the right economic path when it comes to science funding in these times.


I'm pretty sure that the strategy on science funding was not a major factor in our economic position.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I'm pretty sure that the strategy on science funding was not a major factor in our economic position.


I'm pretty sure you don't know this to be a fact and is simply your opinion.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I'm pretty sure that the strategy on science funding was not a major factor in our economic position.


+1

This whole focusing funding on research that leads to jobs stuff, is merely a smokescreen to hobble any scientific research that this government doesn't want to hear.

Scientific research MUST be about FAR more than just... jobs.

I've heard this story about jobs from this government before...


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I'm pretty sure you don't know this to be a fact and is simply your opinion.


True, but I'm absolutely positive that correlation is not equal to causation, so without any further evidence presented, my opinion has a pretty good chance of being true.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> True, but I*'m absolutely positive that correlation is not equal to causation,* so without any further evidence presented, my opinion has a pretty good chance of being true.


True but I didn't state causation, I said evidence, i.e. a peice of data open to interpretation... since when does any single piece of evidence prove causation... I made no such claim.

So no, I have to disagree and say I am quite confident that my statement is more logically probable based on the evidence/argumentation presented thus far.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> We couldn't be conversing right now in the manner in which we are if it weren't for applied research.


The kind of 'research' the IT industry does to develop new technologies is great; I'm both an admirer and a beneficiary of that sort of development. But it doesn't really require huge, broad based, curiosity-driven, research of the type that really works best on a global social scale like basic science. The IT industry has enough money to fund that sort of research, and Xerox PARC, IBM, Bell Labs, etc. have a great track record of turning the physics that university researchers discovered into the technologies that you and I enjoy. What governments need to fund is the basic physics research (and chemistry, and biology) that generates the understanding of nature upon which such technologies can be built.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Yeah and low and behold look where we are economically compared to the rest of the G20.


Despite the US getting hit much harder than us, they spend far more per capita (or as a function of GDP) on basic science than we do, and they're way behind all Western European countries, not to mention the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc. Canada's spending on science relative to its GDP is _embarrassing_.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> True but I didn't state causation, *I said evidence, i.e. a peice of data open to interpretation... since when does any single piece of evidence prove causation... *I made no such claim.
> 
> So no, I have to disagree and say I am quite confident that my statement is more logically probable based on the evidence/argumentation presented thus far.


You may want to revisit the definition of evidence.... and perhaps misusing the word is why your earlier statement sounds a lot like you're implying causation. Please feel free to restate.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> I too would be interested in more information on how science funding has been increased.
> 
> There are many sources on the research station that helped discover the large ozone hole that is being closed, because a mere 2 million can't be found.
> 
> 'Science and sovereignty' key to new Arctic research centre - Politics - CBC News
> 
> What's interesting in this article, is how the new research station, which costs hundreds of millions more to build then fund, seems to have a focus on 'resource development'. The oh yeah! Climate change too... seems quite suspect, and I don't trust this government.
> 
> If you watch very carefully, it's quite clear to anyone I think, no matter what your political leanings that the Harper government is not interested in scientific findings getting in the way of economic development (read, corporate profits...), with this carrot of, jobs.
> 
> I don't care what stripe of government we're talking about. I'd be saying the same things if it were the liberals.


I agree completely. Closing the experimental lakes area, along with the Eureka station is a serious concern. "Jobs and the Economy" mean very little when stacked up against clean air and water.

Increasing research dollars means very little if the bulk of it goes to industry. It's just another corporate subsidy that the public pays for, and once they get it those corporations will expect it from here on out.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More denials proven to be untrue. The proof is in the pudding-

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...p_us_republican_firm_during_may_election.html


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> I too would be interested in more information on how science funding has been increased.


Screature may have access to data I'm unaware of, but what I expect is that he has (understandably) been taken in by the Conservative spin. When they given industry grants, or set up programs like the NSERC Strategic Grants that allow industry to call their product development activities "research" (and have their costs covered by the tax payer), the Conservatives will count this as funding for "science." I should hasten to add that I have no problem with these programs, and agree that the government should be facilitating the development of new technologies; it's just not science.

So, while the oh-so-transparent Harper Government will loudly tout the fact that they've increased spending on science and technology, the fact is that they've cut research budgets, ended the only program to which basic science researchers could apply for funding for instruments, ended the funding for the marine stations, ended the funding for oceanographic research, cut funding for undergraduate and graduate student scholarships, closed arctic research stations, and generally eviscerated basic research in Canada.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'm afraid that this is spot on - 

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/03/18/merger-may-be-wisest-move-for-grits-ndp


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Screature may have access to data I'm unaware of, but what I expect is that he has (understandably) been taken in by the Conservative spin. When they given industry grants, or set up programs like the NSERC Strategic Grants that allow industry to call their product development activities "research" (and have their costs covered by the tax payer), the Conservatives will count this as funding for "science." I should hasten to add that I have no problem with these programs, and agree that the government should be facilitating the development of new technologies; it's just not science.
> 
> So, while the oh-so-transparent Harper Government will loudly tout the fact that they've increased spending on science and technology, the fact is that they've cut research budgets, ended the only program to which basic science researchers could apply for funding for instruments, ended the funding for the marine stations, ended the funding for oceanographic research, cut funding for undergraduate and graduate student scholarships, closed arctic research stations, and generally eviscerated basic research in Canada.


I have no doubt that the numbers quoted will most certainly include the corporate give aways deemed "research" or science. I wouldn't consider myself the most informed by any means, but even I can spot what's going on.


----------



## MacDoc

Hewers of oil......


----------



## i-rui

Federal librarians fear being


----------



## Sonal

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'm afraid that this is spot on -
> 
> Merger may be wisest move for Grits, NDP | Columnists | Opinion | Calgary Sun


Warren Kinsella lost all credibility with me when, after Ignatieff's stunning defeat, I read an article in the Walrus by him about the problems the Liberal Party faces that started with "The Liberal party ran an excellent campaign."

No. That year, the Liberal party campaigned on a platform of "If you don't want Harper, you really have no choice but to vote for us because we are the natural ruling party." Worst campaign ever. That Kinsella thought this was a good campaign demonstrates the biggest problem the Liberal party faces, and merging with the NDP will not fix that.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Federal librarians fear being


We have to take a loyalty oath here at Memorial. I keep refusing to take it and the administration keeps pestering me that my pay will be docked $1 per pay period as a penalty.

""I further swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not within the period beginning five (5) years prior to the effective date of the ordinance requiring the making of this oath or affirmation, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that I am not now and have not, within said period, been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has, within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I further swear (or affirm) that I will not, while I am in the service of Memorial University, advise, advocate or teach, or be or become a member of or affiliated with any group, association, society, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." I am able to get out of this in that I tell my administration that my mother made me promise never to swear, and that my religion (I am a reform Druid) forbids me to affirm anything other than allegiance to rocks.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Federal librarians fear being


Our librarians have a simplier salute each morning upon the opening of the library -- "I give my heart and my hand to my country, one country, two languages, one flag, one pension, all of which is protected by The Harper Government of Canada."


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> We have to take a loyalty oath here at Memorial. I keep refusing to take it and the administration keeps pestering me that my pay will be docked $1 per pay period as a penalty.
> 
> ""I further swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not within the period beginning five (5) years prior to the effective date of the ordinance requiring the making of this oath or affirmation, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that I am not now and have not, within said period, been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has, within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I further swear (or affirm) that I will not, while I am in the service of Memorial University, advise, advocate or teach, or be or become a member of or affiliated with any group, association, society, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." I am able to get out of this in that I tell my administration that my mother made me promise never to swear, and that my religion (I am a reform Druid) forbids me to affirm anything other than allegiance to rocks.


Ah yes!

We shall pray with those old Druids
As we drink fermented fluids
Waltzing naked through the ruins
That's good enough for me...... 
*Pete Seeger*


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting.

Asked how much, filming the CBSA raids cost Canadians, Toews dodged the question altogether by reading from a prepared statement.

Generally when a politician does that, it turns out the taxpayer has indeed financed the folly.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Asked how much, filming the CBSA raids cost Canadians, Toews dodged the question altogether by reading from a prepared statement.
> 
> Generally when a politician does that, it turns out the taxpayer has indeed financed the folly.


+1

If it didn't cost taxpayers a dime, he would have said so. Bingo...


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> We have to take a loyalty oath here at Memorial. I keep refusing to take it and the administration keeps pestering me that my pay will be docked $1 per pay period as a penalty.
> 
> ""I further swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not within the period beginning five (5) years prior to the effective date of the ordinance requiring the making of this oath or affirmation, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that I am not now and have not, within said period, been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has, within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I further swear (or affirm) that I will not, while I am in the service of Memorial University, advise, advocate or teach, or be or become a member of or affiliated with any group, association, society, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." I am able to get out of this in that I tell my administration that my mother made me promise never to swear, and that my religion (I am a reform Druid) forbids me to affirm anything other than allegiance to rocks.


wow. The libertarians who fight so valiantly for gun ownership rights to ensure we can protect ourselves from a ruthless government would be alllll over this one.

Oh wait...


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> You may want to revisit the definition of evidence.... and perhaps misusing the word is why your earlier statement sounds a lot like you're implying causation. Please feel free to restate.


Right. Sorry, should have said indication not evidence.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> We have to take a loyalty oath here at Memorial. I keep refusing to take it and the administration keeps pestering me that my pay will be docked $1 per pay period as a penalty.
> 
> ""I further swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not within the period beginning five (5) years prior to the effective date of the ordinance requiring the making of this oath or affirmation, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that I am not now and have not, within said period, been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has, within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I further swear (or affirm) that I will not, while I am in the service of Memorial University, advise, advocate or teach, or be or become a member of or affiliated with any group, association, society, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the Harper Government of Canada or of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." I am able to get out of this in that I tell my administration that my mother made me promise never to swear, and that my religion (I am a reform Druid) forbids me to affirm anything other than allegiance to rocks.


Awesome! They say a verbal contract is worth the paper it's written on anyway.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Applied research is almost an oxymoron. This is exactly the sort of thing that industry and private interests _will_ fund.
> 
> 
> That's news to me; link?
> 
> Regardless of spin, NSERC's Discovery grant's program, which is the primary source of funding for all the natural sciences and engineering research in Canada was funded to the tune of $414M in 2009, $402M in 2010, $357M in 2011, $342M in 2012, and the most recent budget announced a further $30M cut, brining us down to $312M for 2013. Compare that to the NSF budget of $6.87B or the federal support of basic science in any G20 country to see how we compare.


Sorry been busy:



> *Recent Trends in Research Expenditures in Canada*
> 
> A closer look at recent R&D expenditure trends shows that Canada’s total
> investment in R&D has declined in real terms *between 2006 and 2010*, driven
> mainly by declining private-sector research performance. Both *government* and higher education *R&D expenditures increased modestly* over the same five-year period (*growing by 4.5 per cent* and 7.1 per cent respectively),


The State of Science and Technology in Canada, 2012
Council of Canadian Academies

So like I said the government has actually increased funding and like I said you just don't like that it is going elsewhere, other than to basic research.

That you don't consider applied research to be research simply belies your own biases and self interests.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Ah yes!
> 
> We shall pray with those old Druids
> As we drink fermented fluids
> Waltzing naked through the ruins
> That's good enough for me......
> *Pete Seeger*


We are only allowed to run naked on the Summer Solstice.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> wow. The libertarians who fight so valiantly for gun ownership rights to ensure we can protect ourselves from a ruthless government would be alllll over this one.
> 
> Oh wait...


Yes, pause for a moment and give thanks to reality. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Awesome! They say a verbal contract is worth the paper it's written on anyway.


Well, when we have to give the oath orally, some profs have placed their left hand over their right breastplate (not over the heart) and used their right hand held up with the Vulcan sign in your avatar ............... thus invalidated the oath. Some just moon the loyalty oath officer.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> Well, when we have to give the oath orally, some profs have placed their left hand over their right breastplate (not over the heart) and used their right hand held up with the Vulcan sign in your avatar ............... thus invalidated the oath. Some just moon the loyalty oath officer.


Me loves civil disobedience. Not breaking any laws....just not quite cooperating.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Me loves civil disobedience. Not breaking any laws....just not quite cooperating.


In all seriousness, when I was required to sign the old HUAC Loyalty Oath when I went to teach in Waycross, Georgia, I refused. It would come back to me each month with my paycheck with a reminder to "sign the form". I never did sign the oath after I left teaching there after two years of service.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Looks like there was a taxpayer payment-

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8116936


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Looks like there was a taxpayer payment-
> 
> Government won


oh but it didn't cost us anything!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> oh but it didn't cost us anything!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:


🙈🙉🙊


----------



## MacDoc

Canadian Economic governance .....Harper's 1984 Ministry of Economic Malfeasance = NewSpeak at it's finest.



> *Five myths of Tory budget-making:*
> 
> *No Tax Increases:* While Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has refrained from across-the-board income tax hikes, the Harper government has quietly tapped into Canadians’ wallets in the form of payroll tax increases. As a result of changes that took effect on Jan. 1, anyone earning at least $47,400 will pay $891.12 in Employment Insurance premiums in 2013, up $51.50.
> 
> *Controlling Government Spending:* The importance of keeping spending under control is a Conservative priority. *But since they took power, annual federal spending has risen to $280 billion, an increase of more than 30 per cent.*
> 
> *Size of Government: *A much-promoted Conservative restraint measure is reducing the federal public service by 19,000 positions.* But the size of the government during the Harper years had grown by 32,000 before those cuts.*
> 
> *Deficit-Cutting: *Flaherty stresses the need to avoid debt financing. But, after inheriting a $13-billion budget surplus from the Liberals in early 2006, the Conservatives were running deficits within three years. The current $26-billion annual deficit won’t be erased until 2015 at the earliest.
> 
> *Jobs:* The Conservatives effusively praise Canada’s job-creation record under their government, including the creation of 900,000 net jobs since the recession. But the number of people out of work is still nearly 225,000 higher today than in 2006.


brilliant.....:clap: not.


Federal Budget 2013: Five myths of Conservative budget-making | Toronto Star


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> brilliant.....:clap: not.


Compared to the rest of the world, we're doing much better. YES! :clap:

Thursday’s budget likely to be modest, with much to be modest about | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## groovetube

The torys have been riding the coattails of good economic stewardship of the previous government not to mention the benefit of not having deregulated the banks.

That only lasts for so long while this government continues to act as though they did all that, and spends like drunken sailors, and bloats government bigger than any before them.

I see nothing that this government really has done of real significance that has contributed to having weathered the recession well. Those decisions were made before they took office.

Let's remember how Harper had his government take us into debt -before- the economic downturn of '08.

Unfortunately it takes a couple terms for the hangover to come, but it's coming. That record debt won't pay itself down that's for sure.


----------



## SINC

How soon we forget department: The current government, when still a minority, were pressured under threat of defeat by the Liberals and the NDP to create the spending which resulted in the massive debt.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> How soon we forget department: The current government, when still a minority, were pressured under threat of defeat by the Liberals and the NDP to create the spending which resulted in the massive debt.


Sorry but the big spending jumps are mostly military related. If King Harpo were to stand up to Big Brother and say no more Military stupidity, he could balance the budget.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> How soon we forget department: The current government, when still a minority, were pressured under threat of defeat by the Liberals and the NDP to create the spending which resulted in the massive debt.


Wrong.

Harper had us going into deficit before any if that happened. You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

And I'm pretty sure the opposition didn't force them to spend over half a billion (so far) in adscam campaigns, uselessly cut the gst, hand massive tax cuts to corporations they didn't need over tax cuts to regular Canadians, bloat government bigger than any other in history, fritter 50 million in clement's riding, the list goes on and on, and is getting bigger as we speak.

But somehow, it's someone else's fault. I suppose that's about all the conservatives can muster in their defence?


----------



## SINC

Maclean's defined the reasons for the debt pretty accurately last fall. Oddly enough, there is no mention of military spending, tax cuts, government bloat or any other so-called 'facts' as any part of the cause.

What Canada’s current account deficit says about our vulnerability to a global slowdown - Business, Econowatch - Macleans.ca


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Maclean's defined the reasons for the debt pretty accurately last fall. Oddly enough, there is no mention of military spending, tax cuts, government bloat or any other so-called 'facts' as any part of the cause.
> 
> What Canada’s current account deficit says about our vulnerability to a global slowdown - Business, Econowatch - Macleans.ca


Os it me, or is this article about trade deficits? :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A decade! Seems like only yesterday.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzV3NT0XUk]Stephen Harper and the war in Iraq - YouTube[/ame]


Imagine if Canada had become embroiled in Iraq! Would have been a larger deficit.


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A decade! Seems like only yesterday.
> Stephen Harper and the war in Iraq - YouTube
> 
> 
> Imagine if Canada had become embroiled in Iraq! Would have been a larger deficit.


Yep one of Harpo's biggest regrets is that he wasn't PM back then, as he would have happily joined the US in this fiasco. Had he done so the IMF and the rest of the Banksters would at this very moment be doing to us, what they are currently doing to Greece, Spain, Cyprus................................................


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Sorry but the big spending jumps are mostly military related. If King Harpo were to stand up to Big Brother and say no more Military stupidity, he could balance the budget.


That's nonsense there have been no big military purchases, name one.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> That's nonsense there have been no big military purchases, name one.


Halifax wins $25 billion shipbuilding contract | CTV News


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> How soon we forget department: The current government, when still a minority, were pressured under threat of defeat by the Liberals and the NDP to create the spending which resulted in the massive debt.





groovetube said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Harper had us going into deficit before any if that happened. You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure the opposition didn't force them to spend over half a billion (so far) in adscam campaigns, uselessly cut the gst, hand massive tax cuts to corporations they didn't need over tax cuts to regular Canadians, bloat government bigger than any other in history, fritter 50 million in clement's riding, the list goes on and on, and is getting bigger as we speak.
> 
> But somehow, it's someone else's fault. I suppose that's about all the conservatives can muster in their defence?


How much did Harper blow on Labrador's Internet announcement? 

Well how much did Harper blow on the announcement of Panashue's inventing of the internet in Labrador? A full four days before Peter resigned and *on the same day* that the domain name "deliveringforlabrador.ca" was registered. What a way to blow money.

I now understand that conservatives are saying "the only man Chuck Norris fears in a fair fight is Peter Panashue."


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> Halifax wins $25 billion shipbuilding contract | CTV News


To be fair not a dime has been spent. No steel has been cut, the welding rods are still at the suppliers, no one has been hired.

Still there is no reason not to blow millions on advertising to claim the Action Plan has done something. *Then again running around in circles and ending up nowhere with nothing accomplished, can still technically be called, "a Conservative Action Plan."* :clap:


----------



## bryanc

It was just an obvious example that sprung to mind. The F35 debacle is another, and I'm sure if one was willing to dig a little, many hundreds of others could be found. Our Glorious Leader is a big fan of military spending; apart from corporate welfare, it really the only thing I think he approves of spending tax dollars on.


----------



## i-rui

the Libya mission cost Canada about $350 million.

or roughly the equivalent of keeping the experimental lakes area open for 150 years.

talk about priorities....


----------



## i-rui

Justice spending rising sharply as crime rates fall, budget watchdog warns - The Globe and Mail

it'll be a shame when Kevin Page leaves his office next week. I Fear he'll be replaced with a conservative lackey, and the office will become moot.


----------



## i-rui

Experimental Lakes Area Shuttered By Tories, Scientists Say Move "Unnecessary'

more on the Experimental lakes area...


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Halifax wins $25 billion shipbuilding contract | CTV News


The money has not been spent to date. Like I said name one, and this is not so much an expense as an investment as it will create more in terms of GDP than the expenditure.

Try doing a little more *research* first.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> It was just an obvious example that sprung to mind. *The F35 debacle is another*, and I'm sure if one was willing to dig a little, many hundreds of others could be found. Our Glorious Leader is a big fan of military spending; apart from corporate welfare, it really the only thing I think he approves of spending tax dollars on.


Again no money has been spent to date on actual acquisition... and it is not "another" as you were completely wrong with your first "example" as well.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the Libya mission cost Canada about $350 million.
> 
> or roughly the equivalent of keeping the experimental lakes area open for 150 years.
> 
> talk about priorities....


I don't agree with the shutting down of the ELA, but that doesn't mean that participating in the Libyan mission was wrong or misguided and trying to make a comparison is simply a red herring. 

They are completely disparate decisions and to try and correlate them is just pure partisan political speak.


----------



## BigDL

According to Harper, Peter Penashue is the best MP of Labrador ever.

Harper Tall Tales in Parliament

Further to this, not only do conservatives contend "the only man Chuck Norris fears in a fair fight is Peter Panashue." Now they contend that Peter Panashue not only discovered and named Labradorite but created and distributed this highly prized mineral.

Labradorite


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> According to Harper, Peter Penashue is the best MP of Labrador ever.
> 
> Harper Tall Tales in Parliament
> 
> Further to this, not only do conservatives contend "the only man Chuck Norris fears in a fair fight is Peter Panashue." Now they contend that Peter Panashue not only discovered and named Labradorite but created and distributed this highly prized mineral.
> 
> Labradorite


I have to say I don't understand why they are supporting Penashue the way they are, it makes no sense to me.

It is one seat... Let Elections Canada do their job and run another candidate.

I am completely against the tactics they are employing when it comes to Penashue.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> According to Harper, Peter Penashue is the best MP of Labrador ever.
> 
> Harper Tall Tales in Parliament
> 
> Further to this, not only do conservatives contend "the only man Chuck Norris fears in a fair fight is Peter Panashue." Now they contend that Peter Panashue not only discovered and named Labradorite but created and distributed this highly prized mineral.
> 
> Labradorite





screature said:


> I have to say I don't understand why they are supporting Penashue the way they are, it makes no sense to me.
> 
> It is one seat... Let Elections Canada do their job and run another candidate.
> 
> I am completely against the tactics they are employing when it comes to Penashue.


I am with you, Screature. The federal PC party had to pay the penalties of over $40,000 that Elections Canada said he had to refund or face losing his seat. Luckily, the Liberals are running a very strong candidate and she has a good chance of winning. She is putting her provincial position as a member of our House of Assembly on the line -- if she loses in her run for the House of Commons, she is out of politics. She will not run for Parliament while retaining her seat as a Liberal MHA. Nor will she take a provincial pension should she get her seat as an MP. The last person to say this and actually do this was the last Conservative I ever voted for -- Norm Doyle, our MP here in St.John's East. I actually had an interesting chat with PM Harper in the Calgary Airport about MP Doyle. This is long before he became PM, but he spoke highly of Doyle and so I voted for Doyle and thus Harper, who was in opposition at the time.


----------



## groovetube

Because, as I've said numerous times before, there's always, a shiny ball.

Canada budget 2013: Look for cheaper hockey gear as this year

Keep your eyes, OFF of the huge government, ridiculous spending, and record debt!

CHEAP HOCKEY GEAR!

FREE BEER!


----------



## MacDoc

and the road to prosperity via pollution is not looking too good for Harper either......



> *Tories scrambling to keep energy-based economic agenda on trac*k: Hébert
> Missing the fork in the road that could have led Canada to a more environmentally-sustainable economy is turning out to be anything but a shortcut to lasting prosperity for the Conservatives.
> y: Chantal Hébert National Affairs, Published on Thu Mar 21 2013
> 
> MONTREAL—It’s hard for a seven-year old government to correct its course when the turn not taken is but a distant point in its rear-view mirror.
> For Stephen Harper’s Conservatives, missing the fork in the road that could have led Canada to a more environmentally-sustainable economy is turning out to be anything but a shortcut to lasting prosperity.
> 
> Early on in the prime minister’s tenure, both Preston Manning and Brian Mulroney made the case that the greener path was also the safer path to implementing a resources-based economic agenda.
> Manning has long argued that a Conservative movement determined to carve out a central place on the political landscape should take steps to own the environment issue.
> As for Mulroney, he had had an early taste of the future dynamics of the global energy/environment debate at the time of the controversy over Quebec’s Great Whale hydro development.
> 
> In the mid-1990s, the war over whether the mega-hydro project should go ahead was lost over optics on native rights and potential risks to the environment, on an American public relations battlefield.
> 
> But that lesson and Manning’s prescriptions were apparently lost on Harper.
> Over his minority mandates, he put strong ministers like John Baird and Jim Prentice in charge of the environment file but it was essentially to play defence against the opposition majority.
> 
> Since he has gained control of both houses of Parliament, Harper no longer bothers to pretend that the environment in general and climate change in particular is a major preoccupation, let alone a priority of his government.
> 
> Since their 2011 majority victory, the Conservatives have set about dismantling significant sections of Canada’s environmental oversight infrastructure — a first for a modern federal government.
> 
> In another first, planet-wide this time, they have formally withdrawn from the Kyoto protocol on climate change.
> 
> They have portrayed the environmental movement as a foreign-funded lobby bent on sabotaging the country’s economy.
> 
> Their caucus has spent the better part of the past year dumbing itself down daily in the House of Commons the better to caricature the notion of a carbon tax.
> *Today, the chickens are coming home to roost.*
> 
> In the U.S., the Keystone pipeline has become a rallying point for the environmental movement and its influential allies.
> Faced with such a development, the pre-Harper Canada might have been able to use its standing as a respected, member of the global environmental community to deflect American criticism of the oil sands.
> 
> But seven years of Conservative rule have stripped whatever green veneer the country still sported after a decade of relative neglect under the Liberals.
> One only needs to hear Alberta Premier Alison Redford suggest that to question her province’s environmental record is to do willful harm to Canada to measure how empty the rhetorical cupboard is becoming.
> 
> Against that backdrop, Conservative allegations that NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair is undermining Canada’s energy case at home and abroad are starting to sound like pre-emptive finger-pointing designed to help the government parcel out blame if need be for a self-inflicted failure.
> 
> What is certain is that as things stand today, Redford’s definition of the national interest is lost on the majority of British Columbians who oppose her province’s bid to run pipelines to the Pacific coast. *The mistrust that projects such as Northern Gateway so widely inspire is in no small part grounded in the sense that the environment is an orphan file on Harper’s cabinet table.*
> As it brings down its eight budget, the Harper government is racing against the clock to erase the deficit in time to shower middle-class voters with more tax breaks in the lead-up to the 2015 election.
> 
> But the biggest scramble really involves putting the government’s energy-based economic agenda on a track that does not lead to a wall.


Tories scrambling to keep energy-based economic agenda on track: Hébert | Toronto Star

oh well done. Mr. Harper......NOT. 

Move on......no agenda here..


----------



## groovetube

On ELA...

Research on oil-sands impact cost centre its funding, scientists say - The Globe and Mail



> Leading environmental scientists say Ottawa is cutting funding to a research station that studied the ecology of freshwater lakes for more than 50 years because it is producing data the Conservatives do not want to hear as they promote development of the Alberta oil sands.


I simply don't buy this malarky about cutting spending because of the recession. If that were actually true the many other examples (such as the half billion in "ads cam" spending...) would have been axed.

Ottawa bars freshwater research - Winnipeg Free Press

I appears that the Harper government doesn't anyone using this lab.

Also, it says sources say the actual operating budget is 600k, not 2 million, which 2/3s come back in user fees.


----------



## i-rui

MacDoc said:


> and the road to prosperity via pollution is not looking too good for Harper either......
> 
> 
> Tories scrambling to keep energy-based economic agenda on track: Hébert | Toronto Star
> 
> oh well done. Mr. Harper......NOT.
> 
> Move on......no agenda here..


i loved this editorial cartoon i saw a couple of days ago:


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










also, just read this article about an oil clean up ship that hit a sand bar en route to a conservative press conference :

Oil spill clean-up ship hit sandbar en route to government news conference in Vancouver



> “It’s astonishing to think that the safety and protection of Canada’s busiest port is dependent on a quick response in the event of an oil spill and this is what we get — a response vessel grounding itself and taking 11 hours to arrive in Vancouver.”


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Because, as I've said numerous times before, there's always, a shiny ball.
> 
> Canada budget 2013: Look for cheaper hockey gear as this year
> 
> Keep your eyes, OFF of the huge government, ridiculous spending, and record debt!
> 
> CHEAP HOCKEY GEAR!
> 
> FREE BEER!


Can we please provide a link and evidence to the FREE BEER! 👍


----------



## groovetube

ha!


----------



## groovetube

2013 federal budget is bloated, cynical, dirigiste and incoherent | Full Comment | National Post

It's certainly just one take on the budget, but one thing that stood to me was the fact that both spending, (and government), is bigger than at any time in our history.

Where is all the pontificating about less spending and less government? That debt looks pretty damn big to me...


----------



## eMacMan

Buried deep in the budget, I think it's page 166, is the weasel language about negotiating an exchange of banking information with the US.

First off there is no negotiation on FATCA. The IRS is offering either Door One or Door Two. The claim of reciprocity is entirely fallacious. The US is demanding that Canada collect and turn over to the IRS every bit of financial data on a 3% subset of its population. This includes complete banking records, mutual fund and stock information, insurance policies... There is no way the IRS can acquire the same data from US financial institutions without a court order, therefore it is not available to be offered in exchange. Yet they expect Canada to suspend its own banking privacy regulations and indeed its sovereignty for the benefit of a foreign nation. 

The cost to Canadian financial institutions of complying with these regulations will be enormous and ultimately dumped onto all consumers. Ultimately since the charter of rights is pretty explicit about not discriminating against subsets of the population, the Canadian Government will then have to collect the same data on all Canadians or face class action lawsuits, of course they will claim this intrusion is in the name of fairness.

Beyond just American citizens, this impacts just about everyone who ever held a green card. Also Canadians born in Canada of American parent(s), American born Canadians, many of whom have not lived stateside since childhood or Vietnam. Any of these who have not been filing 1040s, F(u)BARS, 8938s, 8851s, 3520s................................. can expect a concerted effort by the IRS to seize a sizeable portion of their personal wealth, even though in all likelihood they do not owe the US a dime in taxes. This more than just a loss for these individuals but money earned in Canada sent south to Big Brother completely at the expense of the Canadian economy.

This is clearly the time for the Canadian Government to represent Canadians rather than forcing the wishes of the American puppet masters onto Canadians.

There is enormous American pressure on Canada to comply, since FATCA will collapse without Americas biggest trade partner co-operating. Time for King Harpo to assert that US influence stops short of rewriting Canadian laws.


----------



## groovetube

If true, I'm sure the 'freedom champs' will all over this one.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> If true, I'm sure the 'freedom champs' will all over this one.


In many ways much worse. Take the 8938s. If at the end of the year you have more than $200,000 in various accounts, including stocks and mutual funds, you have to fill out one of these for every account. Also if your maximum account total from each account equals more than $300,000 for the year. 

The directions are not clear, there is no help from the IRS. Penalty for not doing them or making a mistake is $10,000 or half the maximum amount in the account whichever is greater. You might even get five years in jail and a criminal record.

So you have a $100,000 in a GIC and $10,000 in your checking account. The GIC comes due, it is transferred to chequing, it then goes to a 3 month savings account back to chequing and into a long term GIC. So you have $100,000 in the first GIC, your checking shows $110,000, short term $100,000 and the second GIC $100,000. So last year your F(u)BARs showed $110,000. This year they show $410,000 and you have to do 8938s as well, and the IRS is asking where the phantom $300,000 came from.

Now if that isn't bad enough if any of those accounts are non-US stocks, bonds or mutual funds they may also require 3520s which are even more convoluted than the 8938s and the penalties are the same.

The advice from Flaherty is to get a US tax consultant. Cost for that is $1500 but only that low if no forms beyond the F(u)BAR are needed. It is quite possible to spend $5000 doing the US tax forms even though in all likelihood you would not owe the US a dime in taxes.

That of course is just the tip of the iceberg. Forget to report that $25 maximum balance in your iTunes account and yep $10,000......


----------



## iMouse

Hospital and College parking is now taxable via HST.

Charming.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> *Hospital and College parking is now taxable via HST.*
> 
> Charming.


HST is provincial jurisdiction...


----------



## iMouse

Does "Harmonized" hold some mystery for you?


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> Does "Harmonized" hold some mystery for you?


Not at all for me, but it seems it does for you though.

Subsidized parking has been taxable for many years now... if you are only going to be charged for it now you have been lucky... and yet you want to whine about it... if you can't accept it... ride the bus.


----------



## iMouse

For those not Ontario-centric, this is for your enlightenment/entertainment.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not at all for me, but it seems it does for you though.
> 
> Subsidized parking has been taxable for many years now... if you are only going to be charged for it now you have been lucky... and yet you want to whine about it... if you can't accept it... ride the bus.


That may prove difficult given John is there because he's doing charity work for cancer patients who can't get to the hospital for treatment.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> That may prove difficult given John is there because he's doing charity work for cancer patients who can't get to the hospital for treatment.


He need not know that.

It's none of his business.

But, being you, and a fellow "outcast", I forgive you. :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> That may prove difficult given John is there because he's doing charity work for cancer patients who can't get to the hospital for treatment.


Give me a linkie! Where's the evidence?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

If it were not for Johns we wouldn't have prostitution. Someone needs to tax the Johns.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Give me a linkie! Where's the evidence?


It is true. John gives back to his community in this manner. Please don't mock a person's good deeds. Merci, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## groovetube

that occurred earlier.

I just thought it fair that John not be attacked over being unhappy about the hospital parking tax situation.

Sorry mouse, I can delete the posts.


----------



## iMouse

Dr.G. said:


> Please don't mock a person's good deeds.


I just laughed. 

As my Mom always said, consider the source, poor, jaded soul that he is. :-(



groovetube said:


> that occurred earlier.
> 
> I just thought it fair that John not be attacked over being unhappy about the hospital parking tax situation.
> 
> Sorry mouse, I can delete the posts.


:lmao:

Have you noticed one leg noticeably longer than the other this morning?

You will. beejacon

Hospital parking fees in general is a big bug-a-boo with me. I'm OK, for I have ways and means (and a transponder) during my varied travels. What vexes me is that people attending treatment/appointments have to pay upwards of $15 a day, or even more, for parking.

I don't care about visitors, as that is a personal choice. But not patients.

They should validate for patients. Some doctors and others do.


----------



## mrjimmy

iMouse said:


> They should validate for patients. Some doctors and others do.


:clap:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> that occurred earlier.
> 
> I just thought it fair that John not be attacked over being unhappy about the hospital parking tax situation.
> 
> Sorry mouse, I can delete the posts.


Attacked? Sorry he set the tone with his snark. 



> Does "Harmonized" hold some mystery for you?


HST was a provincial decision and subsidized parking has been taxable for years so if it is only being implemented now by the hospital that he takes people to he has been lucky plain and simple.

I'm not going to be made to feel guilty about stating the facts because he is doing a good deed that I was unaware of and has no bearing on those facts.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Attacked? Sorry he set the tone with his snark.
> 
> 
> 
> HST was a provincial decision and subsidized parking has been taxable for years so if it is only being implemented now by the hospital that he takes people to he has been lucky plain and simple.
> 
> I'm not going to be made to feel guilty about stating the facts because he is doing a good deed that I was unaware of and has no bearing on those facts.


I think most large Canadian hospitals charge usury parking fees. To some extent this is a way to compensate for budgetary shortfalls. In addition some older hospitals such as Calgary's Foothills, continue to expand facilities by building over existing parking. Result of course is greater demand and less availability, allowing them to gouge at will.

Stateside parking more often than not is free. However it is quite normal for uninsured billings to be 10+ times higher than what insurance companies will pay for the same service. Either the patient is aware of this practice and is able to negotiate a reasonable price; they pay swelling the hospitals profits; they cannot pay leaving the hospital a nice book loss. The last option is quite attractive to hospitals and doctors as enough of those and they can show a book loss at tax time even though they made obscene profits. Big bucks and no taxes, the American dream.


----------



## heavyall

iMouse said:


> Does "Harmonized" hold some mystery for you?


It may be harmonized, but it's still provincial. There is no HST in Manitoba for instance. Lots of things only get one tax here.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Attacked? Sorry he set the tone with his snark.
> 
> 
> 
> HST was a provincial decision and subsidized parking has been taxable for years so if it is only being implemented now by the hospital that he takes people to he has been lucky plain and simple.
> 
> I'm not going to be made to feel guilty about stating the facts because he is doing a good deed that I was unaware of and has no bearing on those facts.


I don't think he was necessarily attacking the federal government, just commenting that both the province, and the federal government are getting tax money off of parking at the hospital.

Let's also remember, who's grand idea it was for the harmonized tax, and gave billions in incentives to implement it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Where's the proof? Provide a link. 
Evidence please.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I don't think he was necessarily attacking the federal government, just commenting that both the province, and the federal government are getting tax money off of parking at the hospital.
> 
> Let's also remember, who's grand idea it was for the harmonized tax, and gave billions in incentives to implement it.


The HST started in 1997 in the Atlantic provinces, it was not an invention of the current government.


----------



## groovetube

I didn't say the current government _invented_ it. I don't know what occured in the Atlantic provinces, but Flaherty thought it was a great idea for Ontario (and the rest...), and offered Ontario billions in incentives to implement it.

Of course the provincial government thought it was a good idea :lmao:

In any case, I don't think iMouse's comment was really meant to go to a discussion on whether or not the conservatives are to blame. I just find it interesting that some people think the HST was totally the Ontario government's initiative.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The HST started in 1997 in the Atlantic provinces, it was not an invention of the current government.


All this misplaced effort to blame the current federal government for an increase in hospital parking fee taxes in Ontario. It certainly smacks of a peculiar sort of desperation!


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> The HST started in 1997 in the Atlantic provinces, it was not an invention of the current government.


Ahh good to know the Harpo Holy Grail of adopting and expanding on every bad idea the Liberals ever had, is indeed intact.


----------



## iMouse

eMacMan said:


> Ahh good to know the Harpo Holy Grail of adopting and expanding on every bad idea the Liberals ever had, is indeed intact.


:lmao: Nothing succeeds like excess.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

eMacMan said:


> Ahh good to know the Harpo Holy Grail of adopting and expanding on every bad idea the Liberals ever had, is indeed intact.


Where's the proof? Give me a link. Where's the evidence?


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I didn't say the current government _invented_ it. I don't know what occured in the Atlantic provinces, but Flaherty thought it was a great idea for Ontario (and the rest...), and offered Ontario billions in incentives to implement it.
> 
> Of course the provincial government thought it was a good idea :lmao:
> 
> In any case, I don't think iMouse's comment was really meant to go to a discussion on whether or not the conservatives are to blame. I just find it interesting that some people think the HST was totally the Ontario government's initiative.


The HST was always in the plan since Lyin' Brian brought in GST. It was hoped that the GST would be included in the price of goods and services like the UK's VAT. 

The HST was introduced when the Liberals were in power federally. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador have HST. PEI has GST and PST.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> It was hoped that the GST would be included in the price of goods and services like the UK's VAT.


Who was hoping to to hide it? Part of the selling point of the GST was that it would be transparent.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Who was hoping to to hide it? Part of the selling point of the GST was that it would be transparent.


There was a small movement at the time wanting to mandate that the GST (and PST) be included. It was a "truth in pricing" thing, where people felt it was deceptive to put a tag on something for a given price when that was not how much money you had to bring to the till. The PCs were opposed to this, and didn't even consider it.

I agreed with the premise at the time, and for the most part still do. The *receipt* should be itemized the way it is now (in provinces that DON'T have HST), but the price tags should display the after tax price -- the price you're actually going to pay.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> There was a small movement at the time wanting to mandate that the GST (and PST) be included. It was a "truth in pricing" thing, where people felt it was deceptive to put a tag on something for a given price when that was not how much money you had to bring to the till. The PCs were opposed to this, and didn't even consider it.
> 
> I agreed with the premise at the time, and for the most part still do. The *receipt* should be itemized the way it is now (in provinces that DON'T have HST), but the price tags should display the after tax price -- the price you're actually going to pay.


Yes--there were a few consumer groups and retailers who wanted it that way. As you say, the government did not support it.


----------



## bryanc

heavyall said:


> The *receipt* should be itemized the way it is now (in provinces that DON'T have HST), but the price tags should display the after tax price -- the price you're actually going to pay.


I agree this would be better; I've gotten fairly good at doing the arithmetic in my head, but still occasionally get surprised. I've also seen many visitors get caught without enough cash at the till to pay for their purchases, who've been quite put out with the surprise tax grab.


----------



## groovetube

Retailers and vendors of any product or service would never want it included. Obviously.

Though my quotes would look a little more palatable if I just put the price and in small type below (+hst) I generally do put price, then tax, then final.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I agree this would be better; I've gotten fairly good at doing the arithmetic in my head, but still occasionally get surprised. I've also seen many visitors get caught without enough cash at the till to pay for their purchases, who've been quite put out with the surprise tax grab.


Income tax is good, while sales tax is a "tax grab"? 

Despite the convenience for people who are "surprised" to see the tax added to their purchases, I believe it's important to be able to differentiate between the price of an item and the levy charged by the government, since both prices and taxes are subject to change.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Ahh good to know the Harpo Holy Grail of adopting and expanding on every bad idea the Liberals ever had, is indeed intact.


The HST has been very good for business development and consumers (which is what it was put in place to accomplish) in the Maritimes, do a little research and you will see for yourself.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The HST was always in the plan since Lyin' Brian brought in GST. It was hoped that the GST would be included in the price of goods and services like the UK's VAT.
> 
> The HST was introduced when the Liberals were in power federally. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador have HST. *PEI has GST and PST.*


Not as of April 1st 2013...


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> The HST has been very good for business development (which is what it was put in place to accomplish) in the Maritimes, do a little research and you will see for yourself.


More precisely it lowered the book-keeping costs for the big guys and made it a tad easier to program modern cash registers. 

Other than that it did absolutely nothing to increase business. Indeed adding taxes to services that had been previously exempt would raise prices. Raising prices does nothing to increase business. Where the services are optional increasing the price will be more likely to reduce demand.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> More precisely it lowered the book-keeping costs for the big guys and made it a tad easier to program modern cash registers.
> 
> *Other than that it did absolutely nothing to increase business. Indeed adding taxes to services that had been previously exempt would raise prices. Raising prices does nothing to increase business. Where the services are optional increasing the price will be more likely to reduce demand.*


Wrong.

Lessons in Harmony:
What Experience in the Atlantic Provinces Shows About the Benefits of a Harmonized Sales Tax



> Conclusion
> Conventional wisdom among public-finance economists has it that retail sales
> taxes are inferior to value-added taxes that raise the same revenue — for a variety
> of reasons, including the narrowness of their base (which distorts relative prices of
> marketed goods), their susceptibility to tax evasion, and their tendency to cascade
> through the value-added chain, thus distorting the relative prices of business
> inputs, particularly capital goods. Indeed, Baylor and Beauséjour (2004) find that
> the economic cost of the RST tax on capital goods exceeds that of all other major
> Canadian taxes.
> My quantitative estimates — of the likely economic impacts of converting
> provincial RSTs to a tax with a value-added base like the GST — emphasize the
> effects on business investment, consumer prices, and the distribution of tax
> burdens. My results are based on an examination of actual effects of reform in the
> four provinces that have already adopted value-added bases, and on a comparison
> of their experience to what happened in the same period in provinces that kept
> their RSTs.
> An examination of detailed revenue data for the RSTs showed that the effective
> tax rates on business inputs, including capital goods, are remarkably high.
> Eliminating such taxes through harmonization would cause a substantial increase
> in business investment. By my preferred estimate, annual machinery and
> equipment investment in the harmonizing provinces rose 12.2 percent above trend
> levels in the years following the 1997 sales-tax reform. Given the high taxes on
> capital inputs in the remaining provinces, it seems reasonable to expect a similarly
> large short-run effect of reform on investment in the RST provinces as well.
> Of course, broadening the base to include new-home purchases, in the context
> of a revenue-neutral harmonization, would increase the visible taxes paid by some
> consumers. This shift in statutory burdens is usually regarded as a major obstacle
> to such a reform. The question, however, is to what extent increases in taxes are
> reflected in true economic incidence — and that depends on the extent to which
> input taxes under the existing RSTs are shifted forward to consumers or backward
> to factors of production.
> To determine that, I examined the relationship between changes in consumer
> prices and changes in effective tax rates in the harmonizing provinces in the years
> following the 1997 reform, again using comparisons with the non-reforming
> provinces to control for economic and especially monetary factors that otherwise
> affected consumer price inflation at the same time. The results showed that the
> pattern of relative price changes among broad consumer expenditure categories
> was quite similar to the pattern of relative changes in taxes and business costs
> induced by the reform. Overall, consumer prices in the harmonizing provinces fell
> with the reform, although prices rose somewhat for shelter and clothing and
> footwear, and that fact tended to make the reform slightly regressive. The pattern
> of reform-induced tax changes would presumably differ in the remaining RST
> provinces, but the results are consistent with the notion that taxes are fully shifted
> forward (or even overshifted) in most sectors, so that the change in statutory
> burdens would not have large distributional effects.


----------



## groovetube

Good for businesses, not so good for consumers.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Wrong.


Yes--essentially all business costs are borne by the consumer as reflected in the price of the final product. As little as I like taxes, this arrangement merely changes the efficiency of the process, not the final price of consumer goods.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Yes--essentially all business costs are borne by the consumer as reflected in the price of the final product. As little as I like taxes, this arrangement merely changes the efficiency of the process, not the final price of consumer goods.


Wrongo: Since services were generally not subject to PST. All service related costs to businesses are increased. In some cases the increased costs go through an intermediate layer further increasing the costs as it gets hit with the HST a second time.

You are correct about the increase landing on the back of the consumer, and where spending is optional that can and probably has resulted in loss of business.


----------



## bryanc

Consumer taxes are regressive. The lower- and middle-earning families spend proportionately more of their income on consumables than the wealthy, so sales taxes like the PST/GST/HST affect the poor more than the rich.

Income taxes are far better, except when the wealthy can hide their income from investments. Get rid of the investment tax shelters and sales taxes and we'd be better off.


----------



## groovetube

All schemes to shift the tax burden to the poor. The 2 point gst cut, which cuts about 14 billion a year (hello balancing the budget...) encouraging provinces to adopt the hst which of course led to more higher taxable items than before... then corporate tax cuts... something has to give if they're ever going to balance the budget.

Last I heard, they're hoping for unicorns to fall from the sky.


----------



## eMacMan

I believe they are now praying for giant Pterodactyls with wing spans so large they can lift and spirit away forever the burden of the national debt.

Doubt that Unicorns could punch any worthwhile holes in the Cons out of control spending habit.


----------



## groovetube

Flaherty tried to float the unicorn theory here in Ontario, and we know how that worked out.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yes--essentially all business costs are borne by the consumer as reflected in the price of the final product. As little as I like taxes, this arrangement merely changes the efficiency of the process, not the final price of consumer goods.


Except it is not borne out by the report if you read it... consumer prices did not rise on the whole.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Except it is not borne out by the report if you read it... consumer prices did not rise on the whole.


I'm agreeing that prices did not rise. However, businesses were able to operate more efficiently because of the HST. 

In Ontario, I would prefer that the provincial tax rate be reduced slightly, and the HST simply applied to everything in such a way as to make the move revenue neutral.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I'm agreeing that prices did not rise. However, businesses were able to operate more efficiently because of the HST.
> 
> In Ontario, I would prefer that the provincial tax rate be reduced slightly, and the HST simply applied to everything in such a way as to make the move revenue neutral.


Oops sorry MF I misread your post.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Except it is not borne out by the report if you read it... consumer prices did not rise on the whole.


That isn't quite correct as some things that were gst only (5%) became hst (13%).


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes--essentially all business costs are borne by the consumer as reflected in the price of the final product. As little as I like taxes, this arrangement merely changes the efficiency of the process, not the final price of consumer goods.


Not for landlords, as residential rent is not subject to HST, and as a consequence, we bear the added costs for taxes on services. (And then McGuinty topped that off by capping the allowable rental increases--which are derived from some unknown formula allegedly related to CPI--at 2.5%.) So, costs go up, rent does not.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Not for landlords, as residential rent is not subject to HST, and as a consequence, we bear the added costs for taxes on services. (And then McGuinty topped that off by capping the allowable rental increases--which are derived from some unknown formula allegedly related to CPI--at 2.5%.) So, costs go up, rent does not.


My costs increased on say commercial space (significantly actually) as well as many other things.

Though, I simply pass that on since now I charge 13% not 5% anymore, which also significantly increased my prices. Though I suppose that cascades when my client is also a business, who also passes that on. The buck eventually stops somewhere...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Not for landlords, as residential rent is not subject to HST, and as a consequence, we bear the added costs for taxes on services. (And then McGuinty topped that off by capping the allowable rental increases--which are derived from some unknown formula allegedly related to CPI--at 2.5%.) So, costs go up, rent does not.


Yes, it should have applied to everything including rent, but at a lower overall rate. 

I never agreed with capping rents anyway, any more than I agree with forcing people to cap their own wages.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> My costs increased on say commercial space (significantly actually) as well as many other things.
> 
> Though, I simply pass that on since now I charge 13% not 5% anymore, which also significantly increased my prices. Though I suppose that cascades when my client is also a business, who also passes that on. The buck eventually stops somewhere...


When services are business to business, it's basically a wash for most things.

But for consumers it goes up and if your business deals with consumers, then....


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That isn't quite correct as some things that were gst only (5%) became hst (13%).


I was speaking to the report that I linked to regarding the HST as it was applied in the Atlantic provinces.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> When services are business to business, it's basically a wash for most things.
> *
> But for consumers it goes up and if your business deals with consumers, then....*


It didn't in the Atlantic provinces if you read the report that I lined to...


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> When services are business to business, it's basically a wash for most things.
> 
> But for consumers it goes up and if your business deals with consumers, then....


Yep. I don't know anything about the Atlantic provinces, only Ontario. I don't know whats different about the Atlantic provinces, though I do know, I don't trust 'reports', just what my firsthand experience is running a business that charges hst, and as a consumer.

Quebec hasn't adopted hst have they?


----------



## MacDoc

Herr Harper at the uber control thing again - good read

Is Stephen Harper taking the “public” out of public servant? | Toronto Star


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> It didn't in the Atlantic provinces if you read the report that I lined to...


I did a quick read of the report and here's what I see:
1) Consumer services are a small portion of the overall tax collected (particularly as some of these services are exempt) and the HST on consumer services had minimal impact on overall tax revenue collected. (page 5/6)

2) Consumer goods did rise slightly in overall price in some areas relative to non-harmonizing provinces, but fell in others, so overall the tax was only mildly regressive. (page 12-15ish)

The problem I have with argument #1 is that while the overall impact on the provincial tax base isn't a good measure of the impact of an individual household. (I mean, if I have 100 tenants paying me $100 each, and one of them gets a $50/month raise, it makes little difference to what I collect overall, but that one guy is going to be mighty unhappy.) In particular, it's unclear in this report whether HST in Atlantic provinces were applied to utilities as they were in Ontario. 

The problem with argument #2 is that it's unclear why harmonizing provinces experienced a drop in prices, and whether that has any relation to the fact that they were harmonized or not. As as example, in theory, prices could have dropped in those provinces to keep people buying locally instead of from Ontario (non-harmonized at the time of this report) but that argument seems less applicable in Ontario.


----------



## groovetube

Keith Ashfield won’t apologize for ‘sexist’ wife comment to student | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

wow. Seriously? Will we hear about the 'rule of thumb' next?


----------



## eMacMan

A lot of services are mixed so a non HST car repair bill may well show GST/PST on $100 in parts along with $500 in labour which only requires GST. I suspect bills like that all ended up as being described as non-service. Ditto roof repair, furnace repair.....

Another example would be shipping. For example a truck load of mining truck tires might show GST/PST on the tires but transport itself could be viewed as service in some provinces and so only GST would apply.

Theoretically as HST is piled on to layer after layer of intermediates the wholesalers each collect a refund. In reality by the time the refund is issued the product has been resold and the price at least somewhat inflated by the HST as that is included in what the intermediate paid. On the other hand wholesalers usually do not pay PST on items they resell. That is only added at the time of final sale.

While HST may be great for larger businesses that employ their own bean counters, smaller businesses and consumers cannot come out ahead.


----------



## heavyall

It takes some serious Orwellian math to try to claim that adding a 7% tax onto the cost of something doesn't raise it's price.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It takes some serious Orwellian math to try to claim that adding a 7% tax onto the cost of something doesn't raise it's price.


It didn't raise prices, because it replaced an existing hidden manufacturer's tax.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> It didn't raise prices, because it replaced an existing hidden manufacturer's tax.


I'm talking about HST, not the initial GST. But even there, yes prices did go up. The pretax prices stayed the same, then 7% was added on top of that. *Nobody* I shopped from lowered any of their prices at the time that's for damn sure.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It didn't raise prices, because it replaced an existing hidden manufacturer's tax.


Not on services.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I'm talking about HST, not the initial GST. But even there, yes prices did go up. The pretax prices stayed the same, then 7% was added on top of that. *Nobody* I shopped from lowered any of their prices at the time that's for damn sure.


Some did, some didn't, but for the HST I agree.


----------



## groovetube

It was pretty well known few lowered their prices after the manufacturers tax was dropped.

I can't understand the digging in of the heels in something so basic and known.

As for the Atlantic 'reports', that has zip to do with the Ontario hst experience.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> Keith Ashfield won’t apologize for ‘sexist’ wife comment to student | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post


I'm sure Ashfield, like most of his Conservative fellow travellers, is so stuck in a 1950's fantasy world that he can't imagine why complementing a young woman on her cooking by saying she'll "make a wonderful wife someday" could be construed as offensive. The idea that women might aspire to something other than being wives, or that wives might be doing something other than cooking and keeping a nice house for their lord-and-master is completely unimaginable to someone like Mr. Ashfield. I'm sure there are some young women who do fell comfortable with this old sex role, but I hope it's not the majority. I know my mother would've been offended by that comment back in the 1960's, and I'd hope that the vast majority of young women these days have aspirations that go far beyond "being a good wife" and furthermore, that their idea of "being a good wife" is more sophisticated than "being a good cook."

So I don't expect any apology from this representative of the Palaeolithic Conservative party, as he genuinely does not think there's anything wrong with what he said.


----------



## Macfury

Do all of the sad sacks in today's world require an apology so they can "move on" or "get closure?" They're breeding a weak-kneed strain of human being these days.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I'm sure Ashfield, like most of his Conservative fellow travellers, is so stuck in a 1950's fantasy world that he can't imagine why complementing a young woman on her cooking by saying she'll "make a wonderful wife someday" could be construed as offensive. The idea that women might aspire to something other than being wives, or that wives might be doing something other than cooking and keeping a nice house for their lord-and-master is completely unimaginable to someone like Mr. Ashfield. I'm sure there are some young women who do fell comfortable with this old sex role, but I hope it's not the majority. I know my mother would've been offended by that comment back in the 1960's, and I'd hope that the vast majority of young women these days have aspirations that go far beyond "being a good wife" and furthermore, that their idea of "being a good wife" is more sophisticated than "being a good cook."
> 
> So I don't expect any apology from this representative of the Palaeolithic Conservative party, as he genuinely does not think there's anything wrong with what he said.


What a bunch of false characterizations. I doubt very much you have any idea what his fellow conservative travellers think or feel. You do realize that your wholesale characterization of conservatives simply belies your own prejudices and bigotry.

The flip side of this political correctness is that it is perfectly fine to identify a good male cook as being a good catch for a woman, as I have heard expressed on several occasions. 

Some people just want to get "upset" for the sake of their own holier than though indignation.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Some people just want to get "upset" for the sake of their own holier than though indignation.


In the absence of experiencing anything serious or important, they experience indignation on the Bell Curve!


----------



## i-rui

I agree, much ado about nothing. Ashfield was being a bit antiquated in the comment, but I don't think he meant any disrespect.

The only person who has the right to ask for an apology is the girl, if she actually felt offended by the remark.


----------



## iMouse

i-rui said:


> The only person who has the right to ask for an apology is the girl, if she actually felt offended by the remark.


And it she wasn't. she'll be made to feel like a Leper by the others who *were* "outraged" (for their own benefit).


----------



## bryanc

I don't think it's particularly outrageous, but having met Ashfield, this is not at all surprising. And while there may be some Conservatives who've dragged their thinking out of the Dark Ages, despite their name, there's nothing progressive about this party. Their desire is most clearly to return to the "good ole days" when women were barefoot and pregnant, and men were god-fearin' and hard-workin' and eager to fight for God and Country when their betters told them that's what needed doin'.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> ...there's nothing progressive about this party.


Thankfully, no. Since "progress" is now largely defined as increased taxation and socialization.


----------



## Sonal

Well, I'm not demanding an apology, but I find it offensive in that it's a backhanded compliment. What's wrong with just saying she's a great cook? Or that he felt truly welcomed by her genuine hospitality? If that is what he meant to say, then why bring the word 'wife' into it? Is the role of a wife to be a great cook and welcoming hostess? How on earth does he even know if she desires to be a wife someday? 

And no, it is not the same as telling a man that his cooking prowess would make him a great husband one day. First, there's a historical context that is lost in that oversimplification, and second, there's a big difference in telling someone that personally versus telling someone that publicly as a means of thanking them for their hospitality.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> What a bunch of false characterizations. I doubt very much you have any idea what his fellow conservative travellers think or feel. You do realize that your wholesale characterization of conservatives simply belies your own prejudices and bigotry.
> 
> The flip side of this political correctness is that it is perfectly fine to identify a good male cook as being a good catch for a woman, as I have heard expressed on several occasions.
> 
> Some people just want to get "upset" for the sake of their own holier than though indignation.


Wrong.

I don't know how anyone, can defend this MP's words. It seems every woman I've spoken to has taken real offence to the comments. Comparing remarks that a man can cook, and would be a good catch for a woman, is not even close to being the same, given context.

Context, is everything. This MP should have known better.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I don't know how anyone, can defend this MP's words. It seems every woman I've spoken to has taken real offence to the comments. Comparing remarks that a man can cook, and would be a good catch for a woman, is not even close to being the same, given context.
> 
> Context, is everything. This MP should have known better.


The guy is an MP. On the human evolutionary scale that is a good deal lower than Lawyers, who usually have to dig extremely deep holes to find the point at which their bar is set.

IOW he is what he is. 

FWIW I am sure our resident Con apologists would have been all over Thomas Mulcair had he made a similar remark.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I don't think it's particularly outrageous, but having met Ashfield, this is not at all surprising. And while there may be some Conservatives who've dragged their thinking out of the Dark Ages, despite their name, there's nothing progressive about this party. *Their desire is most clearly to return to the "good ole days" when women were barefoot and pregnant, and men were god-fearin' and hard-workin' and eager to fight for God and Country when their betters told them that's what needed doin'*.


What a load of bunk, you clearly have no clue and just pontificate based on prejudice and bigotry.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I don't know how anyone, can defend this MP's words. It seems every woman I've spoken to has taken real offence to the comments. Comparing remarks that a man can cook, and would be a good catch for a woman, is not even close to being the same, given context.
> 
> Context, is everything. This MP should have known better.


Not wrong, just your opinion that it is wrong. The women in my office agree that it is purely self righteous indignation by the those of the politically correct ilk.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Well, I'm not demanding an apology, but I find it offensive in that it's a backhanded compliment. What's wrong with just saying she's a great cook? Or that he felt truly welcomed by her genuine hospitality? If that is what he meant to say, then why bring the word 'wife' into it? Is the role of a wife to be a great cook and welcoming hostess? How on earth does he even know if she desires to be a wife someday?
> 
> *And no, it is not the same as telling a man that his cooking prowess would make him a great husband one day. First, there's a historical context that is lost in that oversimplification, and second, there's a big difference in telling someone that personally versus telling someone that publicly as a means of thanking them for their hospitality.*


In your mind. We are along way away from that historical context and if you choose to take offence that is your prerogative it does not mean that all women do or should. 

As I said the women in this office see it for what it was an innocuous comment that those who have a a bone to pick are more than happy to jump on due to their own self righteous sense of indignation and political correctness.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> In your mind. We are along way away from that historical context and if you choose to take offence that is your prerogative it does not mean that all women do or should.
> 
> As I said the women in this office see it for what it was an innocuous comment that those who have a a bone to pick are more than happy to jump on due to their own self righteous sense of indignation and political correctness.


I would disagree with you that we are that far away from the historical context, and that a person makes this remark about being a wife when what they intend to do is compliment someone on their hospitality is, IMO, a good indication that we haven't really come that far.

Do I think the MP meant it innocuously? Yes. But that almost makes it worse.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The guy is an MP. On the human evolutionary scale that is a good deal lower than Lawyers, who usually have to dig extremely deep holes to find the point at which their bar is set.
> 
> IOW he is what he is.
> 
> *FWIW I am sure our resident Con apologists would have been all over Thomas Mulcair had he made a similar remark*.


There are so many ill thought out remarks that come out of Mulcair's mouth that if he made a comment of such innocuous nature it would be a welcome relief.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I would disagree with you that we are that far away from the historical context, and that a person makes this remark about being a wife when what they intend to do is compliment someone on their hospitality is, IMO, a good indication that we haven't really come that far.
> 
> Do I think the MP meant it innocuously? Yes. But that almost makes it worse.


In your opinion and you are entitled to it. We shall have to agree to disagree.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> *I would disagree with you that we are that far away from the historical context, and that a person makes this remark about being a wife when what they intend to do is compliment someone on their hospitality is, IMO, a good indication that we haven't really come that far.*
> 
> Do I think the MP meant it innocuously? Yes. But that almost makes it worse.


:clap: 

It amazes me that people think that that is completely solved, and compare comments made to men and think it's the same thing. Heloooo?

To me it isn't about being politically correct. It's about having some respect. Everyone makes a dumb comment, regardless of party. It's all in how you deal with it after.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I would disagree with you that we are that far away from the historical context, and that a person makes this remark about being a wife when what they intend to do is compliment someone on their hospitality is, IMO, a good indication that we haven't really come that far.


Yes, it perfectly illustrates that we haven't come very far. There's your story.


----------



## chimo

screature said:


> As I said the women in this office see it for what it was an innocuous comment that those who have a a bone to pick are more than happy to jump on due to their own self righteous sense of indignation and political correctness.


Out of curiosity, what is the nature of the business conducted in "this office"?


----------



## screature

chimo said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the nature of the business conducted in "this office"?


Parliamentary Business.


----------



## groovetube

and the cracks begin to to widen...

Backbench Tory MPs complain voices being muzzled in Parliament | CTV News


----------



## BigDL

IMO the Conservative backbench are revolting, generally and as a rule, that aside, they also seem to be standing up to the Party bosses in the PMO. :clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hmmm. What's going on with the rules of Parliament?

Can anyone say "abuse"?

Ah c'mon where's the proof, the evidence?

🙈🙉🙊


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> I would disagree with you that we are that far away from the historical context, and that a person makes this remark about being a wife when what they intend to do is compliment someone on their hospitality is, IMO, a good indication that we haven't really come that far.
> 
> Do I think the MP meant it innocuously? Yes. But that almost makes it worse.


This is exactly what I meant; you've put it much better, as usual.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sonal said:


> I would disagree with you that we are that far away from the historical context, and that a person makes this remark about being a wife when what they intend to do is compliment someone on their hospitality is, IMO, a good indication that we haven't really come that far.
> 
> Do I think the MP meant it innocuously? Yes. But that almost makes it worse.


Sexist pig with little doubt.🐽


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh no another pig revealed -

http://ciec-ccie.gc.ca/resources/Fi...ports/Examination Reports/The Hill Report.pdf

🐖


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh no another pig revealed -
> 
> http://ciec-ccie.gc.ca/resources/Fi...ports/Examination Reports/The Hill Report.pdf
> 
> 🐖


Was only skimming but the conclusion seemed to be not guilty by reason of semantics. Other than that a relatively low reading on the scum scale.

When I said skimming I was referring to my short cut reading method, rather than the typical meaning involved when talking about parliamentarians.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yeah but where's the proof? The evidence?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Poor timing -
Groups send letter to Alberta government, want details about oilsands water spill - Brandon Sun


----------



## Macfury

Why is that poor timing? Because they want to know what was in the spill before the results come back from the lab?


----------



## groovetube

Sex-selective abortion motion blocked again - Politics - CBC News

it doesn't appear that Harper will be able to keep the rogue MPs from speaking. This should get interesting.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Sex-selective abortion motion blocked again - Politics - CBC News
> 
> it doesn't appear that Harper will be able to keep the rogue MPs from speaking. This should get interesting.


Warawa et al seem to have drunk the "spiked" Flavour Aid like "all good little" Conservative MP's. Perhaps, instead, they had a sneak peak at the model re-education camps that will role out soon enough.

They repeat the same phrases all alike. It's like a mantra for all conservatives, "Our Glorious Leader is the bestest leader in this glorious world."


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Warawa et al seem to have drunk the "spiked" Flavour Aid like "all good little" Conservative MP's. Perhaps, instead, they had a sneak peak at the model re-education camps that will role out soon enough.
> 
> They repeat the same phrases all alike. It's like a mantra for all conservatives, "Our Glorious Leader is the bestest leader in this glorious world."


Which has nothing to do with private members presenting bills on the floor.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Warawa *et al* seem to have drunk the "spiked" Flavour Aid like "all good little" Conservative MP's. Perhaps, instead, they had a sneak peak at the model re-education camps that will role out soon enough.
> 
> *They repeat the same phrases all alike.* It's like a mantra for all conservatives, "Our Glorious Leader is the bestest leader in this glorious world."


et al..? Two other MPs, Benoit and Rathgeber... that constitutes et al? I mean seriously... seems you have drunk the "spiked" Flavour Aid like "all good little" Dippers, along with the media... it is to laugh.

Seems you don't follow the Commons or CPAC much as the NDP and Libs also "repeat the same phrases all alike"... same as it ever was...

If you think this is something new you haven't been following politics for very long.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Sex-selective abortion motion blocked again - Politics - CBC News
> 
> it doesn't appear that Harper will be able to keep the rogue MPs from speaking. *This should get interesting.*


Or not. This is bigger for the media and the Dippers than it is for the CPC Caucus. 

I guarantee it or your money back.


----------



## groovetube

20 MPs meeting outside of caucus and you're saying nothing to see here?

No I think this is more than what you're making this out to be.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *20 MPs meeting outside of caucus* and you're saying nothing to see here?
> 
> No I think this is more than what you're making this out to be.


Seeing as there has not been any previous reference to this would you care to link to your source?


----------



## groovetube

It was in the news. I don't have the time to find it.

But it seems well known amongst people I know who are on the hill.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> 20 MPs meeting outside of caucus and you're saying nothing to see here?


That's a pretty big crack in the dam right there.

A few Cabinet resignations would be a nice breath of fresh air.

Let's start with Flaherty. beejacon


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It was in the news. I don't have the time to find it.
> 
> But it seems well known amongst people I know who are on the hill.


Well, when you do have the time to find it please let us know. As well please state the names of the MPs who attended the meeting.

Please forgive me if I doubt the veracity of your story and the credibility of your contacts on the Hill until I see evidence to support your statement.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Well, when you do have the time to find it please let us know. As well please state the names of the MPs who attended the meeting.
> 
> Please forgive me if I doubt the veracity of your story and the credibility of your contacts on the Hill until I see evidence to support your statement.


Backbench revolt the closest thing to a revolution Harper’s seen yet | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Well, when you do have the time to find it please let us know. As well please state the names of the MPs who attended the meeting.
> 
> Please forgive me if I doubt the veracity of your story and the credibility of your contacts on the Hill until I see evidence to support your statement.


Furthermore list the riding that they represent, their religious affiliation, and proof of whether or not they engaged in pre-marital sex.

No credibility without solid proof and facts!


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Backbench revolt the closest thing to a revolution Harper’s seen yet | Full Comment | National Post


Yep... Like expected no names just unknown sources... typical yellow journalism. I guess Ivison didn't have any facts to report today, but still faced a deadline... surprised he would stoop so low...


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Furthermore list the riding that they represent, their religious affiliation, and proof of whether or not they engaged in pre-marital sex.
> *
> No credibility without solid proof and facts!*


That's right jimbo.


----------



## groovetube

Funny I typed it into google and BAM!

As for the credibility of my contacts, well since I have immediately family in posts on the hill, I assume they know more than google, or forums.

Now I personally can't offer any proof or whether they had extra marital affairs or not, but it is somewhat interesting all my ottawa buddies and family who work on the hill all seem to know this.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Funny I typed it into google and BAM!
> 
> As for the credibility of my contacts, well *since I have immediately family in posts on the hill*, I assume they know more than google, or forums.
> 
> Now I personally can't offer any proof or whether they had extra marital affairs or not, but it is somewhat interesting *all my ottawa buddies and family who work on the hill *all seem to know this.


Have they moved to Ottawa and been employed recently on the Hill?... 

It seems passing strange you have never mentioned before these family and friends who work on the Hill despite our long standing conversations on federal politics.

Maybe you could PM me their names, we may know each other and could have lunch.


----------



## Sonal

A few names:
Backbench revolt festers over Easter break after sex-selective abortion once again called ‘unvotable’ | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

A couple more:
Two more Conservative backbenchers support Mark Warawa’s question of privilege - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


----------



## groovetube

I lived in Ottawa years ago and went to Carleton. And Married a Woman who grew up in Ottawa. So no, none of them are recent, they've been there decades some of them. As you know many who grow up in Ottawa often end up working in government offices after uni.

So we do have many friends (and family) who all either work in various places in and around the hill, and some on foreign posts. (Sister in law being one of them).

Certainly doesn't make me an authority by any stretch of the imagination, so no I didn't mention it. But it often gives me an interesting perspective. And having lived up there, I know, as you do, how often what you read in the papers, (and don't...) doesn't quite tell the whole story.

I merely have a perspective, one of many. Not necessarily always correct.

In this case I thought it interesting that some said the same thing as Ivison.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> A few names:
> Backbench revolt festers over Easter break after sex-selective abortion once again called ‘unvotable’ | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> A couple more:
> Two more Conservative backbenchers support Mark Warawa’s question of privilege - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


Yep it is a ground swell we are up to 7 no wait 8 MPs ....

Where else are they going to go... the NDP, the Libs, the Greens... 

That you on the left/media think that this family squabble is anything serious just belies your own wishful thinking that the CPC would just self destruct.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> That you on the left/media think that this family squabble is anything serious just belies your own wishful thinking that the CPC would just self destruct.


I don't think anything on this... I just google. At this point it just looks like a wait-and-see.

But in any case... first it was "there's no evidence of anything" and a few minutes of procrastinatory googling later it's 7-8 MPs....


----------



## iMouse

Harper better put in an emergency call to Hans Brinker.


----------



## MacDoc

> That you on the left/media think that this family squabble is anything serious just belies your own wishful thinking that the CPC would just self destruct.


From overwhelming majority to 2 seats....Muloonie set the precedent....and the friction in Alberta is obvious.
Denial of the obvious seems a rightwinger mantra in more than one arena.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I don't think anything on this... I just google. At this point it just looks like a wait-and-see.
> 
> But in any case... first it was "there's no evidence of anything" and a few minutes of procrastinatory googling later it's 7-8 MPs....


I agree, it's a wait and see. My guess, the party whip becomes a battering ram as Harper won't stand for it. But, that is only going to create a bigger rift for further down the road.

But there is definitely a story here. We're not at Paul Martin levels here yet, but potentially, it could get there.


----------



## screature

What I find amusing about this situation is the position of those on the left. Well actually it isn't so much amusing as down right hypocritical. When Stephen Woodworth brought forward his Motion M-312 for a study to be conducted as to when human life begins the NDP were all over it for raising the abortion debate and calling for Harper to shut it down. 

Now that Harper has shut down the latest salvo from a back bencher the NDP and the left leaning media are all over the issue calling it a denial of freedom of speech. Unsurprisingly they want their cake and to eat it too, but what is surprising is that no one in the media is calling out the NDP (or others in the media) on their blatant hypocrisy.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> What I find amusing about this situation is the position of those on the left. Well actually it isn't so much amusing as down right hypocritical. When Stephen Woodworth brought forward his Motion M-312 for a study to be conducted as to when human life begins the NDP were all over it for raising the abortion debate and calling for Harper to shut it down.
> 
> Now that Harper has shut down the latest salvo from a back bencher the NDP and the left leaning media are all over the issue calling it a denial of freedom of speech. Unsurprisingly they want their cake and to eat it too, but what is surprising is that no one in the media is calling out the NDP (or others in the media) on their blatant hypocrisy.


From what I'm reading, the other parties are not interested in re-opening the abortion debate per se, but are concerned about the larger issue of MPs being able speak and vote freely in order to properly represent their constituents.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> but what is surprising is that no one in the media is calling out the NDP (or others in the media) on their blatant hypocrisy.


It's politics; hypocrisy is nothing to be ashamed of. When I did debating in high school, they'd tell you the topics in advance, but you never knew what side you were going to argue until 5 minutes before the debate. In politics and debating, your personal values are irrelevant; you attack your opponent's arguments using the best strategy and rhetoric you can muster.


----------



## iMouse

That's because they are politicians.

Like the scorpion in the old fable, It's in their nature.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> From what I'm reading, the other parties are not interested in re-opening the abortion debate per se, *but are concerned about the larger issue of MPs being able speak and vote freely in order to properly represent their constituents.*


And there in lies the hypocrisy. They were all too willing to deny those rights when it came to Stephen Woodworth and his Motion, but now that Harper is doing exactly what they called for with Warwa it is a travesty of democracy. He is damned either way.

It is hypocrisy anyway you slice it, again not surprising, but what is surprising is that no one in the media is calling them out on it.


----------



## screature

*In defense of hypocrisy*



bryanc said:


> It's politics; hypocrisy is nothing to be ashamed of. When I did debating in high school, they'd tell you the topics in advance, but you never knew what side you were going to argue until 5 minutes before the debate. In politics and debating, your personal values are irrelevant; you attack your opponent's arguments using the best strategy and rhetoric you can muster.


Interesting how this point of view is defensible when it is the party that you favour doing it and to be condemned when it is the party that you oppose... hypocrisy all around.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> And there in lies the hypocrisy. They were all too willing to deny those rights when it came to Stephen Woodworth and his Motion, but now that Harper is doing exactly what they called for with Warwa it is a travesty of democracy. He is damned either way.
> 
> It is hypocrisy anyway you slice it, again not surprising, but what is surprising is that no one in the media is calling them out on it.


The difference is that Warawa made a complaint on the House floor that the party was interfering in his right to speak.

Woodsworth did not.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> From what I'm reading, the other parties are not interested in re-opening the abortion debate per se, but are concerned about the larger issue of MPs being able speak and vote freely in order to properly represent their constituents.





Sonal said:


> The difference is that Warawa made a complaint on the House floor that the party was interfering in his right to speak.
> 
> Woodsworth did not.


exactly. That seems to be the important point that's getting missed within all the finger pointing.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> The difference is that Warawa made a complaint on the House floor that the party was interfering in his right to speak.
> 
> Woodsworth did not.


So what? 

It does not change one iota the hypocrisy of the position of the NDP. They wanted the PM to shut down Woodworth and chastised Harper for not doing so... Now that he has shut down Warwa they are saying he shouldn't have done it and "defending" his right to speak his mind.

The NDP are speaking from both sides of their mouth, no two ways about it, cut and dried.


----------



## bryanc

To be honest, the NDP and the Liberals are also hoping that Harper will be forced to unmuzzle some of his backbenchers, who will promptly reveal their special brand of crazy and help weaken national support for the conservatives.

So it's partly an honest effort to force the government to allow its members to speak freely, and part politics.


----------



## groovetube

so what?

That's the point!

I don't think anyone's denying that any of the parties are hypocritical, that's a given. We get that already.

Welcome to politics! 

Bryanc put it well. ^^


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> so what?
> 
> That's the point!
> 
> I don't think anyone's denying that any of the parties are hypocritical, *that's a given. We get that already.*


It's not my point at all and seeing as it is hypocrisy of the Opposition that I am talking about it is completely irrelevant.

So if we get that already why is it that no one is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Opposition in the media? It seems they just get a pass and no one is being critical of them for being two faced.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The NDP are speaking from both sides of their mouth, no two ways about it, cut and dried.


There's your lessons, screature. When it's the NDP behind the 8 Ball, it's just "the way politicians operate." Pay no attention.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> To be honest, the NDP and the Liberals are also hoping that Harper will be forced to unmuzzle some of his backbenchers, who will promptly reveal their special brand of crazy and help weaken national support for the conservatives.
> 
> So it's partly an honest effort to force the government to allow its members to speak freely, and part politics.


Nonsense IMO.It is pure political opportunism and cynical hypocrisy...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It's not my point at all and seeing as it is hypocrisy of the Opposition that I am talking about it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> So if we get that already why is it that no one is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Opposition in the media? It seems they just get a pass and no one is being critical of them for being two faced.


because there's no real story in any of the hypocrisy of the opposition.

The story right now, is this rift occurring in Harper's government. Man bites dog!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> because there's no real story in any of the hypocrisy of the opposition.
> 
> The story right now, is this rift occurring in Harper's government. Man bites dog!


As I said before, where are these MPs going to go, the NDP, the Libs, the Greens? No. It is a family squabble that will end up going no where and the only reason why it is a story is because of wishful thinking on the part of the Opposition and the media.

Much ado about very little and the sands of time will prove me to be correct IMO and if I am proven to be wrong well then you can tell me I told you so.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> As I said before, where are these MPs going to go, the NDP, the Libs, the Greens? No. It is a family squabble that will end up going no where and the only reason why it is a story is because of wishful thinking on the part of the Opposition and the media.


When Quebec Dippers return to the separatist party, that's of no interest, of course.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> So what?
> 
> It does not change one iota the hypocrisy of the position of the NDP. They wanted the PM to shut down Woodworth and chastised Harper for not doing so... Now that he has shut down Warwa they are saying he shouldn't have done it and "defending" his right to speak his mind.
> 
> The NDP are speaking from both sides of their mouth, no two ways about it, cut and dried.


Woodworth wasn't claiming that he was muzzled. Warawa is.

Woodworth's motion was debated and voted upon, and it failed.

Warawa's motion was deemed unvoteable even when independent analysis showed that it does meet the criteria for voteability. When Warawa intended to use his speaking time to bring up the issue, he was cut from the speaker's list.

Conservative MP Mark Warawa loses his appeal on motion condemning sex-selective abortion | Toronto Star


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Woodworth wasn't claiming that he was muzzled. Warawa is.
> 
> Woodworth's motion was debated and voted upon, and it failed.
> 
> *Warawa's motion was deemed unvoteable even when independent analysis showed that it does meet the criteria for voteability*. When Warawa intended to use his speaking time to bring up the issue, he was cut from the speaker's list.
> 
> Conservative MP Mark Warawa loses his appeal on motion condemning sex-selective abortion | Toronto Star


I know the background all too well and it does not change the two faced position of the Opposition in the least. What they wanted to happen to Woodworth is what is happening with Warwa and they cry foul either way.... Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Oh and BTW, guess what, the Opposition voted against Warwa's motion to be deemed votable...


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I know the background all too well and it does not change the two faced position of the Opposition in the least. What they wanted to happen to Woodworth is what is happening with Warwa and they cry foul either way.... Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> 
> Oh and BTW, guess what, the Opposition voted against Warwa's motion to be deemed votable...


The Opposition objects to Warawa being cut from the speaker's list owing solely to the topic.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> The Opposition objects to Warawa being cut from the speaker's list owing solely to the topic.


And they wanted the PM to stop Woodworth and Warwa from being able to table the Motions in the first place!

So in what world is it, that it is defensible to support the denial of the rights of an MP at any earlier stage in the Parliamentary process only to try and hypocritically support their rights at a later stage in the Parliamentary process.

Riddle me that?


----------



## groovetube

I believe the difference was already explained.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> And they wanted the PM to stop Woodworth and Warwa from being able to table the Motions in the first place!
> 
> So in what world is it, that it is defensible to support the denial of the rights of an MP at any earlier stage in the Parliamentary process only to try and hypocritically support their rights at a later stage in the Parliamentary process.
> 
> Riddle me that?


From what I understand, it is because historically MPs have freedom to speak on whichever topic they choose for their SO31s. And that was not the case here.

An analogy might be that not everything I express is necessarily worthy of being printed in the news, but I still have the right to say it. 

In other, but related news... Stephane Dion was on the committee who deemed this unvoteable, and explains his reasoning here.
NDP speaks to Warawa privilege question, but where are the Liberals? | iPolitics


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I believe the difference was already explained.


It has not. Not for anyone who knows the process.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> From what I understand, it is because historically MPs have freedom to speak on whichever topic they choose for their SO31s. And that was not the case here.
> 
> An analogy might be that not everything I express is necessarily worthy of being printed in the news, but I still have the right to say it.
> 
> In other, but related news... Stephane Dion was on the committee who deemed this unvoteable, and explains his reasoning here.
> NDP speaks to Warawa privilege question, but where are the Liberals? | iPolitics


MPs have the right to submit any Private Members Motion or Private Members Bill they choose. MPs have the right to make SO31's. 

The House Leaders Office has the right to set the schedule for S031's and to change and adjust the schedule as they see fit. Warwa had his place in the schedule moved.

Nothing happened that went against the processes of the House. He will still have his allotted time at another date.

Clearly the reason for his being bumped was based on the content of his statement, but that is not for the Speaker to decide and I am quite confident that is how he will rule on the matter.

I think it is rather obvious that the PMO and House Leaders office want some time to talk to Warwa and see if they can settle their differences before he makes a public statement that they will all live to regret.


----------



## BigDL

It's not just Conservative backbenchers that are feeling the love for Our Glorious Leader.

Do not click YouTube Link as may contain ph bomb(s) or other strong language by times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0GDSrkw-Q


----------



## Macfury

Someone doesn't like the sitting Prime Minister? Stop the presses!


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It has not. Not for anyone who knows the process.


COme on now, that's insulting. I know what the process is.

Somehow the discussion has gone from the media reporting on a perceived growing rift within Harper's government, to whether or not something improper as trampling on an MPs rights and freedoms to put forth a motion.

It doesn't so much matter if these con MPs are right, or whether or not the NDP is acting hypocritically or not. What matters, is if there is a growing crack in Harper's government, and if so, will it get much worse as it did in the lib party.


----------



## Macfury

I wonder if any more NDP separatists will leave the party soon? A few more and the Bloc may well revive its party funding.

PoV: NDP's separatist caucus should take a walk | Editorial | Opinion | Sudbury Star


----------



## i-rui

if any NDP MP wants to be a separatist, then the best thing is for them to leave, just like those Conservative MPs would be wise to leave and resurrect the Reform party. 

They'd be 75% of the way to get their party funding - well ahead of the Bloc!


----------



## groovetube

Money still flows out of ‘have-not’ Ontario | Toronto Star

Is Ontario really, a 'have not' province?


----------



## FeXL

Further speculation on that Cyprus thing happening in Canada...

Is Canada the next Cyprus?



> The concept of a Canada taking money from unknowing bank depositors is not just within the realm of hysteria and hype.
> 
> Not when Page 144 of the 2013 Canadian budget states: “The Government also recognizes the need to manage the risks associated with systemically important banks—those banks whose distress or failure could cause a disruption to the financial system and, in turn, negative impacts on the economy. This requires strong prudential oversight and a robust set of options for resolving these institutions *without the use of taxpayer funds*, in the unlikely event that one becomes non-viable.


Bold mine.



> _Translated, Without the use of taxpayer funds means via depositor funds???’_ asks one CFP letter to the editor writer.


Italics from the link.

Further.



> Mr. Flaherty, all need to know how the Canadian bank ‘bail-in’ regime differs from what is happening in Cyprus and being contemplated in the Euro region which some see as a blueprint for the United States of America.
> 
> And as untold numbers of people with money in Canadian banks are now asking: “Are my bank deposits really safe?”


Things that make you go hmmm...


----------



## iMouse

Remember those tax-free saving accounts?

How much fine print is involved with them, or is the government free to change the terms of the "contract" at any time?

That would be a lot of money right there. beejacon


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Money still flows out of ‘have-not’ Ontario | Toronto Star
> 
> Is Ontario really, a 'have not' province?


Ontario's sunshine list sees double-digit growth - Business - CBC News

Found this interesting. About seven years ago I was "headhunted" by a dean at Brock for a position at Brock University in the area of teleteaching and innovation in education. So, I thought I would throw my hat in the ring to see what might happen. Waited a bit and "nada". Emailed the dean to see what was happening. Seems I did not even make the sort list. "Such is Life" said I. 

Just took a look at this Sunshine List to see what the job is now paying (at the time, I would have gotten a $28,000 boost in salary). The position now, held by a professor with 13 years less university teaching than I have now and a full professor as well as I am, is earning $53,000 more than I am right now ............ and is earning more than the Dean of the Faculty of Education at Brock.

So, NL, which is a "have province", and ON, which is a "have not" province, pays their professors quite diferently. Of course, Memorial University, our one and only major university, still has just about the lowest tuition in the country, which is VERY helpful for students.

Still, I feel as if I am paid quite well here, but can't imagine how I could be worth over $53,000+ more there than here, even in an administrative position.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Money still flows out of ‘have-not’ Ontario | Toronto Star
> 
> Is Ontario really, a 'have not' province?


The equalization formula has been improved on in recent years, but it still sucks. The marker of what is a "have" and what is a "have not" is open to interpretation. Even Manitoba, which almost always qualifies for equalization, isn't necessarily getting more than it's share. There was an article in the local paper recently that tried to break down what we pay in taxes per capita compared to what we get back in cash or services, and every way they added it up we paid in a lot more than we got back.

In reality though, that's how it's going to be for everyone. Federal taxes are just that. You may or may not get that value back inside of your province, but that money only counts as your contribution as a Canadian, not as a member of your province.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> if any NDP MP wants to be a separatist, then the best thing is for them to leave, just like those Conservative MPs would be wise to leave and resurrect the Reform party.
> 
> They'd be 75% of the way to get their party funding - well ahead of the Bloc!


The CPC is our party, we built it. It's the Liberals in blue suits who will be forced out in time. They can go resurrect the Progressives. The people on the left who don't like Harper should be careful what they wish for, because when he is replaced, it will be with someone significantly more right-wing than he is.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> The CPC is our party, we built it.


who is "we"?



heavyall said:


> The people on the left who don't like Harper should be careful what they wish for, because when he is replaced, it will be with someone significantly more right-wing than he is.


perhaps. I think Harper is intelligent enough to know how to toss the extreme right a few bones here and there while not scaring the vast majority of canadians who are by-in-large centrists.

If the conservatives get a more "right-wing" leader then i'm pretty sure they would lose grip on any political power fairly quickly.


----------



## iMouse

Dr.G. said:


> Still, I feel as if I am paid quite well here, but can't imagine how I could be worth over $53,000+ more there than here, even in an administrative position.


Danger pay.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> who is "we"?


The people who built the party.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> The CPC is our party, we built it. It's the Liberals in blue suits who will be forced out in time. They can go resurrect the Progressives. The people on the left who don't like Harper should be careful what they wish for, because when he is replaced,* it will be with someone significantly more right-wing than he is.*


I for one would be more than happy to see that. It would spell the end of the CPC's power almost overnight.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I for one would be more than happy to see that. It would spell the end of the CPC's power almost overnight.


If anything, it's the opposite. The electorate in this country is moving more and more conservative. In order to STAY in power, the Conservatives will have to move further right as well. They'll lose if they don't.


----------



## bryanc

I disagree; as the baby boomers start dying off, younger more progressive voters are becoming more of a factor. This is more obvious in the US, but I think the pendulum has swung as far right as it's going to; the next couple of decades will see a shift to the left (followed by a couple of decades shifting back to the right). What does seem to be the case is we go further to the right with each swing of the pendulum; Mulroney looks like a liberal in comparison to Harper, and Obama is further to the right on most issues than Reagan.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Obama is further to the right on most issues than Reagan.


This is absolute nonsense.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> This is absolute nonsense.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

I've seen it. Neither guest agrees with the premise.


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> Mulroney looks like a liberal in comparison to Harper.


Mulroney was a lIberal. There was no substantive difference between the LPC and the PCs. It was just a matter of whether you preferred red or blue. There's a reason that party imploded.





bryanc said:


> I disagree; as the baby boomers start dying off, younger more progressive voters are becoming more of a factor.


Younger people are rebelling against their boomer elders' socialist ideas. The right of center vote has gone up for five consecutive elections. Most of the CPC volunteers in the last election were under 30. And they donate too.

There are more important factors too. Quebec, for instance, no longer is a requirement for a majority. That means you no longer have to **** off the west by catering to them. You can easily lock up 50-60% of those western seats by just making it clear you aren't going to appease Quebec anymore. Thumb your nose are environmentalists, especially on the world stage, and you'll get even more.

All of that doesn't even take into account the biggest factor. Immigrants. They are no longer the default Liberal voters. Not only has the CPC been actively courting their support, they've been coming in in droves because many of their values ARE at their core conservative ones.

I think Bricker and Ibbitson said it best in their book "The Big Shift": Not only do the eastern 'progressives' not see the changes that have happened to the country that led to the CPC success, they're still in denial that it even happened.

That denial is the biggest reason why the CPC will win next time around, and will continue to do so until a credible opposition that is _further to the right _comes around.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Mulroney was a lIberal. There was no substantive difference between the LPC and the PCs. It was just a matter of whether you preferred red or blue. There's a reason that party imploded.


Absolutely. Joe Clark was likewise a liberal, who looked slightly conservative only when compared to Pierre Trudeau. 

Jean Chretien, on the other hand, had shifted to the right of Mulroney.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> If anything, it's the opposite. The electorate in this country is moving more and more conservative. In order to STAY in power, the Conservatives will have to move further right as well. They'll lose if they don't.





heavyall said:


> Mulroney was a lIberal. There was no substantive difference between the LPC and the PCs. It was just a matter of whether you preferred red or blue. There's a reason that party imploded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Younger people are rebelling against their boomer elders' socialist ideas. The right of center vote has gone up for five consecutive elections. Most of the CPC volunteers in the last election were under 30. And they donate too.
> 
> There are more important factors too. Quebec, for instance, no longer is a requirement for a majority. That means you no longer have to **** off the west by catering to them. You can easily lock up 50-60% of those western seats by just making it clear you aren't going to appease Quebec anymore. Thumb your nose are environmentalists, especially on the world stage, and you'll get even more.
> 
> All of that doesn't even take into account the biggest factor. Immigrants. They are no longer the default Liberal voters. Not only has the CPC been actively courting their support, they've been coming in in droves because many of their values ARE at their core conservative ones.
> 
> I think Bricker and Ibbitson said it best in their book "The Big Shift": Not only do the eastern 'progressives' not see the changes that have happened to the country that led to the CPC success, they're still in denial that it even happened.
> 
> That denial is the biggest reason why the CPC will win next time around, and will continue to do so until a credible opposition that is _further to the right _comes around.


Wishful thinking aside, do you have any facts to back up the above claims. 

Not just opinions that you may strongly agree with but do you know facts, numbers, independent irrefutable evidence? 

Some links would be nice also.

Who exactly are these eastern 'progressives' that you referenced and where (which part of the east) do they live?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Mulroney was a lIberal. There was no substantive difference between the LPC and the PCs. It was just a matter of whether you preferred red or blue. There's a reason that party imploded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Younger people are rebelling against their boomer elders' socialist ideas. The right of center vote has gone up for five consecutive elections. Most of the CPC volunteers in the last election were under 30. And they donate too.
> 
> There are more important factors too. Quebec, for instance, no longer is a requirement for a majority. That means you no longer have to **** off the west by catering to them. You can easily lock up 50-60% of those western seats by just making it clear you aren't going to appease Quebec anymore. Thumb your nose are environmentalists, especially on the world stage, and you'll get even more.
> 
> All of that doesn't even take into account the biggest factor. Immigrants. They are no longer the default Liberal voters. Not only has the CPC been actively courting their support, they've been coming in in droves because many of their values ARE at their core conservative ones.
> 
> I think Bricker and Ibbitson said it best in their book "The Big Shift": Not only do the eastern 'progressives' not see the changes that have happened to the country that led to the CPC success, they're still in denial that it even happened.
> 
> That denial is the biggest reason why the CPC will win next time around, and will continue to do so until a credible opposition that is _further to the right _comes around.


Unfortunately reality doesn't agree with you.

Both Mulroney, and Harper, had to appear far more moderate to get elected. Harper had a harder time since he was viewed too far right to get a majority. Only in the 'freedom fighters' dreams, would further right moves solidify power. Facts simply don't back that up. 

At all.

Far right conservatives dream that Canada will become right of center rather than a moderate progressive majority. I hasn't been so, and neither will it.

As for Quebec, correction, you need either Quebec, or Ontario. Ontario came onboard more ONLY when it thought Harper was a little moderate than it thought. Go further right, and you will hand another party more seats.

Why do you think Harper so tightly controls teh crazies???


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *COme on now, that's insulting.* I know what the process is.
> 
> Somehow the discussion has gone from the media reporting on a perceived growing rift within Harper's government, to whether or not something improper as trampling on an MPs rights and freedoms to put forth a motion.
> 
> It doesn't so much matter if these con MPs are right, or whether or not the NDP is acting hypocritically or not. What matters, is if there is a growing crack in Harper's government, and if so, will it get much worse as it did in the lib party.


It most certainly is not. Where is the insult? It was a simple statment... if you do in fact know the process of Private Members Business you would know that the question was not answered. 

Supporting the denial of allowing an MP to submit any PMM or PMB of their choosing is a fundamental denial of the rights of MPs and that is explicitly what the NDP wanted to happen with Woodworths Motion. Only then to try and to pretend to support the right of Warwa to make an SO31 as being sancrosanct when really all they are doing is trying to add fuel to the "fire" of there being a rift in the CPC caucus...

Pure cynical hypocrisy while feigning indignation over a "denial" of the rights (which weren't denied just a change in the schedule of SO31s by the House Leader's office) of MPs that they were all too willing to deny Woodworth.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It most certainly is not. Where is the insult? It was a simple statment... if you do in fact know the process of Private Members Business you would know that the question was not answered.


What difference does it make of you live that process every day, when a blogger says the CPC is falling apart?


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> The people who built the party.


the "people" who built the conservative party were the leaders of the CA & PC, as well as other conservatives with political power. It was never a grassroots movement. It was leaders trying to consolidate their power together.



heavyall said:


> I think Bricker and Ibbitson said it best in their book "The Big Shift"


They're 2 conservative commentators writing a book. Hardly a surprise they take that stance, although a few weeks (months?) ago i believe Ibbitson said a left merge could stop another Harper victory (not that i endorse a Left merge - i'd hate to end up with a left version of the Harper government)



heavyall said:


> That denial is the biggest reason why the CPC will win next time around, and will continue to do so until a credible opposition that is _further to the right _comes around.


We can argue about "what if" situations, but it's kind of silly until these things actually occur.

But what i will say is that a similar situation occurred in Alberta (the bastion of conservatism in this country) in the last provincial election, and the Wild Rose (a party to the right of the current conservatives) were soundly defeated. So in practise your theory appears to hold little water.

Harper may win the next election, but beyond that i can't see him staying on. Entrenched PMs tend to have a shelf life of 'more or less' a decade (trudeau, mulroney, chretien). That's what i believe we're seeing now.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It most certainly is not. Where is the insult? It was a simple statment... if you do in fact know the process of Private Members Business you would know that the question was not answered.
> 
> Supporting the denial of allowing an MP to submit any PMM or PMB of their choosing is a fundamental denial of the rights of MPs and that is explicitly what the NDP wanted to happen with Woodworths Motion. Only then to try and to pretend to support the right of Warwa to make an SO31 as being sancrosanct when really all they are doing is trying to add fuel to the "fire" of there being a rift in the CPC caucus...
> 
> Pure cynical hypocrisy while feigning indignation over a "denial" of the rights (which weren't denied just a change in the schedule of SO31s by the House Leader's office) of MPs that they were all too willing to deny Woodworth.


You are still mired in really trying to deflect what the real storey is here to, 'it's the NDP's fault too!'.

Back to the original story, as I said earlier. It's about the cracks in Harper's government, and whether or not this is something that will grow down the line, or not.

That seems to be the story all the major media is interested in.


----------



## BigDL

Shame on anyone who tries to say Our Great and Glorious Leader is not the Greatest and Most Glorious Leader that any country could have as its Leader.

The Greatest and Gloriouest Leader that ever, ever was, ever ever is, or ever, ever will be, anyone who says different is full of $***, plain and simple.

It is now all of the fault of the NDP to say anything to the contrary, it was all of the fault of the Liberals in the past to say anything to the contrary, and it could be all of the fault of the Greens or Bloc into the future, to say anything to the contrary about Our Greatest and Goriouest Leaderest who know.

For the Conservative Party has the Greatest and Most Glorious Leader in the history of the Conservative Party better than any old drunk they started out with.

So to recap, Stephen Harper is GREAT his leadership is GREAT his policies are GREAT, his speeches are GREAT, his shoes are GREAT, his talking points are GREAT, his hair is GREAT, his rhetoric is GREAT, his sweater vests well, well they're just too GREAT, his cat love is GREAT I've heard his caucus members say as much and *they should know better,* than the others.


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> Goriouest Leaderest


Two new words to learn for me, in one post.

:clap:










beejacon


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Shame on anyone who tries to say Our Great and Glorious Leader is not the Greatest and Most Glorious Leader that any country could have as its Leader.
> 
> The Greatest and Gloriouest Leader that ever, ever was, ever ever is, or ever, ever will be, anyone who says different is full of $***, plain and simple.
> 
> It is now all of the fault of the NDP to say anything to the contrary, it was all of the fault of the Liberals in the past to say anything to the contrary, and it could be all of the fault of the Greens or Bloc into the future, to say anything to the contrary about Our Greatest and Goriouest Leaderest who know.
> 
> For the Conservative Party has the Greatest and Most Glorious Leader in the history of the Conservative Party better than any old drunk they started out with.
> 
> So to recap, Stephen Harper is GREAT his leadership is GREAT his policies are GREAT, his speeches are GREAT, his shoes are GREAT, his talking points are GREAT, his hair is GREAT, his rhetoric is GREAT, his sweater vests well, well they're just too GREAT, his cat love is GREAT I've heard his caucus members say as much and *they should know better,* than the others.


What a juvenile post.


----------



## groovetube

Nothing to add to the topic, just on the sidelines, waiting to take a shot.

My my.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> What a juvenile post.


How nice to add that I'm young at heart. Why! Thank-you very much.

Sadly, "the great(est) leader" comments were Conservative MP's comments while leaving the Conservative's caucus room on Wednesday March 27, 2013, not mine.

For a small sampling click the link below;

The backbencher revolt that wasn't - The National - CBC Player.


----------



## chimo

I have not noticed this opinion piece by Andrew Coyne in the National Post been linked to yet.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/03/31/andrew-coyne-mob-rule-versus-mark-warawa/


----------



## BigDL

As I have said before an opinion even one you strongly agree with, is just that, an opinion. It is not facts.

To be fair the erosion of MP power started in the late 60's and into the 70's with the Trudeau era. The rise of the power of the PM and the PMO started then as well.

Many have spoken in this thread and in other threads on this forum about the lack of power of the MP to vote as constituents would like.

I have long advocated for minority governments. 

As we see with Majority Governments as is the current situation with the Conservative Government being a fine example of one, a Government that abuses power and abuses the Parliamentary system as well.

When Bill Casey, a Nova Scotian Conservative MP, stood up for what he considered the best interests of his constituents and against his Prime Minister many on this board condemned his actions as one of a traitor. Many supported Mr. Casey's being dismissed from the Conservative caucus. Mr. Coyne's opinion in the link above speaks to the issue of disloyalty if a MP stands up for his/her rights.


----------



## iMouse

So, if I am reading the tea leaves correctly, his son Benjamin is the current dauphin, in much the same manner as Justin Trudeau?


----------



## MacDoc

per usual - Ontario screwed by Ottawa....




> *Star Exclusive: New ‘fiscal gap’ study finds Ottawa milking Ontario of $11 billion a year*
> University of Toronto study titled “Filling the Gap” calls for changes to the federal equalization program.
> 
> Ontario is being milked by the federal government to the tune of $11 billion a year at a time when the province can ill afford it, a new study on the so-called “fiscal gap” concludes.
> That means the province’s taxpayers send $11 billion more to Ottawa than they get back in funding and services, says the report to be released Monday by the Mowat Centre, a public policy think-tank at the University of Toronto.


Star Exclusive: New ‘fiscal gap’ study finds Ottawa milking Ontario of $11 billion a year | Toronto Star

and of course Harper stopped publishing the figures that would make this clear



> The report calls on Ottawa to bring back its annual breakdown of federal spending and revenues by province, which it scrapped in 2009.


snip 



> The study found the program is clearly “broken” because* Ontarians pay 39 per cent of Canada’s federal taxes — about equal to their share of the population — but get just 34 per cent of federal spending,* and this at a time when the province is struggling with higher-than-average unemployment and a decline in manufacturing since the recession.
> 
> “The difference raises important questions about the responsiveness of federal policy to the needs of Ontario,” writes Zon, who based his calculations on Statistics Canada and federal Finance Department numbers. “Federal spending decisions are significantly skewed against the people of Ontario.”
> 
> With Ontarians being shortchanged by longer waiting periods for employment insurance, and getting less per capita for programs like affordable housing, infrastructure, job training, energy sector support and others, the federal government is “undermining Ontario’s prosperity and quality of life,” Zon said.


but of course the bloody oil sands STILL get subsidies in the billions.


----------



## groovetube

Now why would they stop publishing the breakdown? That isn't very "open and transparent".


----------



## Sonal

chimo said:


> I have not noticed this opinion piece by Andrew Coyne in the National Post been linked to yet.
> 
> Mob rule versus Mark Warawa | Full Comment | National Post


Good link, chimo. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> but of course the bloody oil sands STILL get subsidies in the billions.


Complete nonsense. The oil and gas industry receives the same tax treatment as other businesses in the country. On the other had, our ill-fated green energy programs receive monstrous subsidies that other businesses do not enjoy.


----------



## groovetube

Scientist 'Muzzling' To Be Investigated By Federal Information Watchdog

Of course Harper and co. is silencing tax payer funded science. They don't want results and conclusions that get in the way of their agenda.

It doesn't take much intelligence really to see this.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Good link, chimo. Thanks for posting it.


I agree. AC makes some excellent points re the representation we actually get from our MPs ............ whether they want to represent our views or not.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I agree. AC makes some excellent points re the representation we actually get from our MPs ............ *whether they want to represent our views or not.*


It all depends on who you voted for and who won doesn't it? And whether or not their views are your views....

You get what you voted for, *at best*... that is the nature of our political system as we know it.


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> It all depends on who you voted for and who won doesn't it?


What does "winning" have to do with anything? How childish is that thought?



screature said:


> And whether or not their views are your views...


Their declared views, at the outset, but at the final bell they are hardly the same thing.

Politicians always sell you a bill of goods, just to get their fat ass to the trough.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You get what you voted for, *at best*... that is the nature of our political system as we know it.


Screature, how dare you intimate that elections have consequences and might actually influence policy choices?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It all depends on who you voted for and who won doesn't it? And whether or not their views are your views....
> 
> You get what you voted for, *at best*... that is the nature of our political system as we know it.


I honestly didn't think it had much to do with the whole if you voted for them or not thing.

It was a good piece. I agree Dr. G!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I honestly didn't think it had much to do with the whole if you voted for them or not thing.
> 
> It was a good piece. I agree Dr. G!


Sadly, all to true for some MPs, gt. Still, this is why I try to vote for the best person, regardless of party. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

not sure if this should go here or in the American thread, but since it affects Canada and the ongoing push to get America to take our oil...

Arkansas cleanup underway after millions of litres of Canadian oil spills from pipeline | CTV News

The headline isn't good, "millions of litres of Canadian Oil".


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> not sure if this should go here or in the American thread, but since it affects Canada and the ongoing push to get America to take our oil...
> 
> The headline isn't good, "millions of litres of Canadian Oil".


That should read "millions of litres of oil from Canada", but it's always someone else's fault.

It's their oil now, let *them* deal with it. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Well when it's a GRAND idea to have a pipeline everyone's smiling and nearly knocking their heads from bowing and waving their hands (furiously of course  ) shooing away any concerns environmentally, that is, until all hell breaks loose.

Then, it's someone else's fault.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> What does "winning" have to do with anything? How childish is that thought?


For goodness sake it is rather obvious isn't it... Depending on who wins they may or may not represent your views (whether you voted for them or not). And in what possible world other than yours is it childish to say so?


----------



## groovetube

So let me get this straight. If an MP gets in that I didn't vote for, he doesn't represent me?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> So let me get this straight. If an MP gets in that I didn't vote for, he doesn't represent me?


You clearly misunderstand what King Harpo means when he says represent.

In the Harpo Government the job of the conservative MP is to represent the Kings views to their constituents. The job of non-con MPs is to take the blame when the King screws up royally.


----------



## screature

screature said:


> For goodness sake it is rather obvious isn't it... Depending on who wins they *may or may not represent your views *(whether you voted for them or not). And in what possible world other than yours is it childish to say so?





groovetube said:


> So let me get this straight. If an MP gets in that I didn't vote for, he doesn't represent me?


Sigh... did I say that? No? He/she may or may not represent your *views*. 

It's pretty clear that if you voted NDP and a Conservative wins the riding that the odds are not in favour of your views being represented by him/her.


----------



## groovetube

So my MP only represents his party's political agenda, not their constituents.

It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but the distinction is, important.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> So my MP only represents his party's political agenda, not their constituents.
> 
> It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but the distinction is, important.


Worse than that they all represent the King using absolutely identical soundbites.


----------



## groovetube

you would have to be seriously gullible to believe this kid was responsible for this.

Michael Sona charged in robocalls scandal | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

Yeah, bring on a public inquiry.


----------



## chimo

groovetube said:


> you would have to be seriously gullible to believe this kid was responsible for this.
> 
> Michael Sona charged in robocalls scandal | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> Yeah, bring on a public inquiry.


Are you suggesting he may have been "byrned"?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Charged!*

Charged!


----------



## bryanc

Buddy on the left will soon be found twisting in the wind, while Harper walks away 'washing his hands' of the whole thing.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> So my MP only represents his party's political agenda, not their constituents.
> 
> It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but the distinction is, important.


Seems like you don't want to recognize that our political system is based on political parties and you vote for an individual who is part of a party that has a stated platform and policies. If you don't agree with a given platform then you are free vote for a candidate running for a party that more closely represents you own views. This is federal politics not municipal.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Seems like you don't want to recognize that our political system is based on political parties and you vote for an individual who is part of a party that has a stated platform and policies. If you don't agree with a given platform then you are free vote for a candidate running for a party that more closely represents you own views. This is federal politics not municipal.


Exactly. The MP is not a mere tool who who will got to Ottawa to ask the federal government to veer more strongly into socialism because 20 per cent of his/her constituents are avid readers of NOW magazine.

However, if some of the constituents require assistance, MPs will generally try to help, regardless of whether someone voted for them.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Seems like you don't want to recognize that our political system is based on political parties and you vote for an individual who is part of a party that has a stated platform and policies. If you don't agree with a given platform then you are free vote for a candidate running for a party that more closely represents you own views. This is federal politics not municipal.


I'm fully aware of that. I think that point has been made multiple times.

This really isn't about just simplistic right vs left. I know some parts of the electorate sees things in those basic terms. Clearly this simplistic perspective has allowed governments of either stripe to get away with a lot.

However, what happens, when even though an MP is voted in to represent his/her riding, say based on being the most qualified and best to represent a riding, but most of the riding really disagrees with something the government is doing. Not everything a government does has been spelled out during an election.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm fully aware of that. I think that point has been made multiple times.
> 
> This really isn't about just simplistic right vs left. I know some parts of the electorate sees things in those basic terms. Clearly this simplistic perspective has allowed governments of either stripe to get away with a lot.
> 
> However, what happens, when even though an MP is voted in to represent his/her riding, say based on being the most qualified and best to represent a riding,* but most of the riding really disagrees with something the government is doing.* Not everything a government does has been spelled out during an election.


Well first of all there would need to be a poll conducted to know if that were true and that costs money and it would come from the MPs budget and I know of no MP who conducts that kind of polling unless it is during an election campaign and then the money comes from the MP/candidates electoral fund not public money.

Secondly MPs already do bring issues of their constituents who disagree with the governments action to Caucus and write to Ministers on the behalf of constituents who disagree with the governments policies. 

However that does not mean they represent those views, i.e. argue in favour of them. Sometimes they might if they agree with the constituent, but in many other cases they continue to disagree but bring them forward to the attention of other Caucus members and the relevant Minister(s).


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Exactly. The MP is not a mere tool who who will got to Ottawa to ask the federal government to veer more strongly into socialism because 20 per cent of his/her constituents are avid readers of NOW magazine.
> 
> *However, if some of the constituents require assistance, MPs will generally try to help, regardless of whether someone voted for them*.


Exactly.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Well first of all there would need to be a poll conducted to know if that were true and that costs money and it would come from the MPs budget and I know of no MP who conducts that kind of polling unless it is during an election campaign and then the money comes from the MP/candidates electoral fund not public money.
> 
> Secondly MPs already do bring issues of their constituents who disagree with the governments action to Caucus and write to Ministers on the behalf of constituents who disagree with the governments policies.
> 
> However that does not mean they represent those views, i.e. argue in favour of them. Sometimes they might if they agree with the constituent, but in many other cases they continue to disagree but bring them forward to the attention of other Caucus members and the relevant Minister(s).


ok that seems like a how to, a 'this is how parliament works!' something we already know. I really just wanted to know what your opinion on this was. There has been some discussion as to whether one should vote for an MP who is part of a party who's policies you agree with, or the MP that you feel is most qualified to represent your riding. 

As for quoting the macfury, I don't need to see his insults thanks. I'd like to avoid that nonsense.


----------



## Kosh

groovetube said:


> I really just wanted to know what your opinion on this was. There has been some discussion as to whether one should vote for an MP who is part of a party who's policies you agree with, or the MP that you feel is most qualified to represent your riding.


Damn, that's a GOOD question. I think it's a mixture of both. If I strongly agree with an issue that a party is pushing, I would try and vote for that party. BUT, I would also like to know what local things their local MP rep has done for my area - ie. local issues. A local issue may supercede a global party issue. Also is the local MP new, or is he knowledgeable and experienced? As well, how does the local MP feel about party issues? Just as we've learned that the Conservative Caucas MPs all don't feel the same about certain issues, i'm sure it's the same in all parties.


----------



## BigDL

Personally I follow the Party's positions of the various Political Partys. During one election I think the election when Harper got his first minority, (at any rate) I agreed with one issue, the Conservative's military policy, I agreed with all of the NDP's policies except Jack Layton's military policy. I did not agree with any Liberal policies.

I did not vote for the Conservative Candidate/MP Rob Moore. 

The riding I voted in was/is the safest Conservative riding in Canada. The Liberals won the riding once for one term(the guy that one that time was a son-in-law to the Irvings) since Confederation, the Conservative/Progressive Conservatives have held the riding every other election.


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau would win majority, poll finds | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

yowza.


----------



## groovetube

Kosh said:


> Damn, that's a GOOD question. I think it's a mixture of both. If I strongly agree with an issue that a party is pushing, I would try and vote for that party. BUT, I would also like to know what local things their local MP rep has done for my area - ie. local issues. A local issue may supercede a global party issue. Also is the local MP new, or is he knowledgeable and experienced? As well, how does the local MP feel about party issues? Just as we've learned that the Conservative Caucas MPs all don't feel the same about certain issues, i'm sure it's the same in all parties.


thx, you got what I was asking.

I tend also to vote for the party I want to see get support. But a couple times, I voted for an MP I thought was the better candidate for my riding, that wasn't my choice for government.


----------



## Sonal

If MPs are not supposed to represent their constituents (regardless of views) but are only supposed to mindlessly vote along party lines, why elect MPs at all? Why not just vote for a PM, hire all the ministers, and have done with it?


----------



## iMouse

Sonal said:


> If MPs are not supposed to represent their constituents (regardless of views) but are only supposed to mindlessly vote along party lines, why elect MPs at all? Why not just vote for a PM, hire all the ministers, and have done with it?


Because the fallacy of representation would be shattered.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> If MPs are not supposed to represent their constituents (regardless of views) but are only supposed to mindlessly vote along party lines, why elect MPs at all? Why not just vote for a PM, hire all the ministers, and have done with it?


exactly what I was getting at. Regardless of where you lean politically, I thought at the end of the day, that minister represents his or her riding.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> exactly what I was getting at.
> 
> Regardless of where you lean politically, I thought at the end of the day, that minister represents his or her riding.


Tim, you shocked me with that one. :yikes:

I didn't think that you were that naive. 

Still, you have time to become more cynical, as I am.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Tim, you shocked me with that one. :yikes:
> 
> I didn't think that you were that naive.
> 
> Still, you have time to become more cynical, as I am.


Of course I'm not that naive.


----------



## eMacMan

Sonal said:


> If MPs are not supposed to represent their constituents (regardless of views) but are only supposed to mindlessly vote along party lines, why elect MPs at all? Why not just vote for a PM, hire all the ministers, and have done with it?


*

Thanks for putting it so clearly. Democracy behind closed doors, as in Caucus meetings, is not Democracy. The current methods are intended to create the illusion of Democracy, while the government works tirelessly for the benefit of its corporate and US masters at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> If MPs are not supposed to represent their constituents (regardless of views) but are only supposed to mindlessly vote along party lines, why elect MPs at all? Why not just vote for a PM, hire all the ministers, and have done with it?


Sonal, you know that's not a reasonable representation of a complex situation at all. The activity of the MP is not simply represented by the sum total of all of the votes in the House of Commons. Likewise, policy is not all drafted at the leadership level, but is composed in part of each MP's assessment of what is best for his/her riding.

Some constituents will have views completely at odds with their MP and they're unlikely to have any of their wishes met. I have found myself represented by Liberal MPPs, for example, who do not represent my views at all at all. However, even as they're playing to the Toronto Annex crowd, they honestly believe they're representing me with some grand new tax to subsidize Toronto streetcars or some ridiculous plan to erect more windmills. They're doing their best for me while invoking ruinous policies. It is simply not possible to represent all of the people all of the time as they wish.

To that I say, better luck next election MacFury... I will not weep bitter tears because I currently feel under-represented.


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper looking to halt caucus unrest by creating a forum for disgruntled backbenchers | Full Comment | National Post

This is almost funny. Even funnier that these MPs fell for this, but I wonder how long it'll work.

Here. Here's a padded room over there where you can go and scream, yell punch the wall, whatever. Just shut up k?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper looking to halt caucus unrest by creating a forum for disgruntled backbenchers | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> This is almost funny. Even funnier that these MPs fell for this, but I wonder how long it'll work.
> 
> Here. Here's a padded room over there where you can go and scream, yell punch the wall, whatever. Just shut up k?


No, not a padded room .................... but Room 101 will be located in the deep basement of the West Block. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3U83QLoATU]1984 Room 101 - YouTube[/ame]

Of course, they could let all the MPs just yell and shout whatever they wanted to in The House.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zYlOU7Fpk&feature=endscreen&NR=1[/ame]


----------



## eMacMan

Have not gone looking for it yet but there are rumours that King Harpo has inserted a bail-in provision for the banks into the budget. 

If so it was doubtless at the insistence of the IMF. No real reason to write it into the budget unless a Cyprus style raid on bank deposits is already in the planning stages.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Have not gone looking for it yet but there are rumours that King Harpo has inserted a bail-in provision for the banks into the budget.
> 
> If so it was doubtless at the insistence of the IMF. No real reason to write it into the budget unless a Cyprus style raid on bank deposits is already in the planning stages.


I read that. So, rather than raid our tax money when they screw up, they now can raid our money in our savings.

In the end, it's still -our- money the banks can raid. Legally. Except this time, Harper and co. seems to be making it so the banks can get their bailout directly from our pockets without having to go to government and have to go through the pesky procedure of scrutiny and approval.

Brilliant.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> *If MPs are not supposed to represent their constituents (regardless of views)* but are only supposed to mindlessly vote along party lines, why elect MPs at all? Why not just vote for a PM, hire all the ministers, and have done with it?


Who stated this?

Our political system is whipped whether you or others like it or not so an educated voter should take that into consideration when casting their vote.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Sonal, you know that's not a reasonable representation of a complex situation at all. The activity of the MP is not simply represented by the sum total of all of the votes in the House of Commons. Likewise, policy is not all drafted at the leadership level, but is composed in part of each MP's assessment of what is best for his/her riding.
> 
> Some constituents will have views completely at odds with their MP and they're unlikely to have any of their wishes met. I have found myself represented by Liberal MPPs, for example, who do not represent my views at all at all. However, even as they're playing to the Toronto Annex crowd, they honestly believe they're representing me with some grand new tax to subsidize Toronto streetcars or some ridiculous plan to erect more windmills. They're doing their best for me while invoking ruinous policies. It is simply not possible to represent all of the people all of the time as they wish.
> 
> To that I say, better luck next election MacFury... I will not weep bitter tears because I currently feel under-represented.


Yup... +1


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Have not gone looking for it yet but there are rumours that King Harpo has inserted a bail-in provision for the banks into the budget.
> 
> If so it was doubtless at the insistence of the IMF. No real reason to write it into the budget unless a Cyprus style raid on bank deposits is already in the planning stages.





groovetube said:


> I read that. So, rather than raid our tax money when they screw up,* they now can raid our money in our savings.*
> 
> *In the end, it's still -our- money the banks can raid. Legally. Except this time, Harper and co. seems to be making it so the banks can get their bailout directly from our pockets without having to go to government and have to go through the pesky procedure of scrutiny and approval.*
> 
> Brilliant.


Completely wrong.

The bail-in scenario has nothing to do with depositors’ accounts. Those accounts will continue to remain insured up to $100,000 through the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Bail-in arrangements are NOT ‘bail-out’ arrangements, under a ‘bail-out’ arrangement, taxpayers money has to be used to save a failing financial institution. Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangements, a failing financial institution has to tap into their own special reserves or assets (which they have been forced to put aside) to keep their operations going

As Mark Carney stated in 2010:



> “There is a firm conviction among policy-makers that losses incurred in future crises must be borne by the institutions themselves. This means management, shareholders and creditors, rather than taxpayers. Better market infrastructure alone will not be sufficient to re-instill market discipline. Ultimately, a series of measures, including living wills and better cross-border resolution regimes, will be required to expose fully firms to the ultimate sanction of the market.
> 
> All jurisdictions need the tools to intervene safely and quickly to ensure the continued performance of a firm's essential functions and to sell, transfer or restructure part or all of a firm while apportioning losses. Statutory bail-in authority could fill a crucial gap in the resolution toolkit and should catalyze private alternatives to the restructuring process.
> 
> An example of a promising market-based mechanism is to embed contingent capital and bail-in features into unsecured market debt and preferred shares issued by financial institutions. Contingent capital is a security that converts to capital when a financial institution is in serious trouble, thereby replenishing capital without the use of taxpayer funds. Contingent conversions could be embedded in all future new issues of senior unsecured debt and subordinated securities to create a broader bail-in approach. Its presence would also discipline management, since common shareholders would be incented to act prudently to avoid having their stakes diluted by conversion. It also sends the message that banks must always act prudently to remain solvent and that they cannot reply on taxpayer bailouts in times of difficulty.”


The hysteria over bail-ins 



> Bail-in simply refers to a partial conversion of certain unsecured debt into equity under specific conditions. A 2011 paper titled Contingent Capital and Bail-In Debt: Tools for Bank Resolution put out by the Bank of Canada has some ideas on the liabilities that can be converted into equity [emphasis mine]:
> 
> There is some debate about the scope of the liabilities that should be subject to such bail-in conversion, but a focus on senior, unsecured debt instruments would be relatively straightforward. This particular scope of application would leave secured creditors, insurable depositors, short-term securities holders and a bank’s counterparties unaffected by bail-in provisions.
> 
> In other words, deposits in a bank up to CDIC insurance limits will likely be safe during a bank failure. In fact, The Financial Post is now reporting that a Finance Ministry spokeswoman clarified that “the bail-in scenario described in the budget has nothing to do with depositors’ accounts and they will in no way be used here.”
> 
> One would think that a bail-in mechanism for banks is a good thing because recapitalizing too-big-to-fail institutions with tax payer money (a.k.a bail outs) while leaving bond, preferred-share and sometimes even equity investors with little or no losses will incentivize reckless risk taking. After all, who wouldn’t love to gorge on a free lunch if someone else gets a stomach ache?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Completely wrong.
> 
> The bail-in scenario has nothing to do with depositors’ accounts. Those accounts will continue to remain insured up to $100,000 through the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.
> 
> Bail-in arrangements are NOT ‘bail-out’ arrangements, under a ‘bail-out’ arrangement, taxpayers money has to be used to save a failing financial institution. Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangements, a failing financial institution has to tap into their own special reserves or assets (which they have been forced to put aside) to keep their operations going
> 
> As Mark Carney stated in 2010:
> 
> 
> 
> The hysteria over bail-ins


Sounds just like Cyprus to me. Interestingly it seems almost all of those vulnerable accounts in Cyprus were withdrawn via a back door bank in Russia, even as the banks in Cyprus remained closed.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Sounds just like Cyprus to me. Interestingly it seems almost all of those vulnerable accounts in Cyprus were withdrawn via a back door bank in Russia, even as the banks in Cyprus remained closed.


It is not like Cyprus... read and educate yourself.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It is not like Cyprus... read and educate yourself.


Insured accounts safe, others SOL. Canada and Cyprus it is indeed the same. I suspect there is even a provision, that those who are robbed will get worthless bank stocks in return for their losses ala Cyprus. Bet they even have those back doors set-up so the big boys won't suffer any losses.

Personally I would go with the thought, if it ain't insured get it out of there now.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Insured accounts safe, others SOL. Canada and Cyprus it is indeed the same. I suspect there is even a provision, that those who are robbed will get worthless bank stocks in return for their losses ala Cyprus. Bet they even have those back doors set-up so the big boys won't suffer any losses.
> 
> Personally I would go with the thought, if it ain't insured get it out of there now.


The proposed bail-in regime would allow for the “rapid conversion of certain bank liabilities into *regulatory capital*”. A bank’s “regulatory capital” is composed mainly of common stock held by owners, not depositors.


----------



## screature

Margaret Wente understands the nature of our political system... 

Advice to Mr. Harper: Muzzle those MPs! 



> ...Everyone from the NDP to the National Post is cheering on the brave dissenters who defied the Great Dictator.
> 
> But I’m not. The dissenters want to impose new limits on abortion, something Mr. Harper has repeatedly vowed will not happen. In my view, the dissenters should be made to sit down and shut up and be whipped, if necessary, to within an inch of their lives. They knew what the deal was when they signed on. It’s beyond ironic that many of the same critics who are blasting Mr. Harper for shutting them down would be the first to condemn him if he ever allowed the dissenters to have their way.
> 
> Let’s recall how this row started. Last fall, a pro-life backbench Conservative MP named Mark Warawa introduced a motion to denounce sex-selective abortion. This came immediately after another motion from a different MP who wanted Parliament to re-examine the question of when a fetus is considered to be a human being. (Mercifully, it was defeated.) To Mr. Warawa’s great distress, the Tory brass quashed his motion dead before he could even speak about it in the House.
> 
> I think we can all agree that sex-selective abortion is clearly wrong. (In fact, 92 per cent of Canadians think so.) But anyone who believes this wasn’t an effort to reopen the broader abortion debate must also believe in the Easter Bunny.
> 
> Generally speaking, the media go ballistic any time some pro-life MP pops his or her head above the parapet. But I guess the chance to denounce Mr. Harper as a crypto-fascist control freak was just too good to resist. Also, bad news for the Conservatives is good news for people who can’t stand them. There’s always the tantalizing possibility that the party might split apart, thus paving the way back to power for the forces of progress and enlightenment.
> 
> Mr. Harper’s critics insist that the clampdown on Mr. Warawa is about free speech. But really, it’s about discouraging the diehard pro-life MPs who’ll always look for ways to get abortion back on the agenda whenever they think they see an opening. Mr. Harper knows that, if he ever lets this happen, he can kiss his majority goodbye. He knows that any hope for a reasoned debate on abortion in or outside Parliament is futile. The media would be sure to fan the flames, and all the other business of the nation would be hijacked.
> 
> “There are some issues that are so divisive and have been handled in such an acrimonious way in the past that they can’t be properly dealt with during an election or in Parliament,” Preston Manning said in a CBC interview this week. He should know. So long as the Reform Party allowed every member to speak his mind, it didn’t have a chance. No party does....


----------



## bryanc

I completely agree with Wente's analysis on this. Nevertheless, I think the NDP and Liberals were perfectly justified in attacking Harper's muzzling of his MPs... It's the opposition's job to criticize the government, and it's not the oppositions' problem that Harper's backbenchers are neanderthals; indeed any opportunity the opposition gets to illustrate this point is one they should capitalize on. The fact that this puts Harper in a "damned-if-I-do-damned-if-I-don't" position is precisely because the Conservative party has this problem, and drawing media attention to the fact is just good politics.

I also agree that this sort of behaviour would be hypocritical if it weren't done in the context of party politics, but this is an unfortunate characteristic of our political system; it does not favour integrity.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Completely wrong.
> 
> The bail-in scenario has nothing to do with depositors’ accounts. Those accounts will continue to remain insured up to $100,000 through the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.
> 
> Bail-in arrangements are NOT ‘bail-out’ arrangements, under a ‘bail-out’ arrangement, taxpayers money has to be used to save a failing financial institution. Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangements, a failing financial institution has to tap into their own special reserves or assets (which they have been forced to put aside) to keep their operations going
> 
> As Mark Carney stated in 2010:
> 
> 
> 
> The hysteria over bail-ins


Sorry, I misspoke here. I didn't mean to include savings accounts. 

But what of RRSPs etc. investment accounts


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I completely agree with Wente's analysis on this. Nevertheless, I think the NDP and Liberals were perfectly justified in attacking Harper's muzzling of his MPs... It's the opposition's job to criticize the government, and it's not the oppositions' problem that *Harper's backbenchers are neanderthals*; indeed any opportunity the opposition gets to illustrate this point is one they should capitalize on. The fact that this puts Harper in a "damned-if-I-do-damned-if-I-don't" position is precisely because the Conservative party has this problem, and drawing media attention to the fact is just good politics.
> 
> I also agree that this sort of behaviour would be hypocritical if it weren't done in the context of party politics, but this is an unfortunate characteristic of our political system; it does not favour integrity.


Why must you always be so confrontational in your choice of words?

His back bench is made up of more than 100 MPs, while I don't dispute there are a few Neanderthals in the bunch they are far from all being so... 

There are also Neanderthals in the Liberal Caucus as well and ignorant dunderheads in the NDP Caucus, but I would not paint them all with the same brush because I know that it is just plain wrong/incorrect to do so, not to mention hyperbolic and needlessly provocative.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Sorry, I misspoke here. I didn't mean to include savings accounts.
> 
> *But what of RRSPs etc. investment accounts*


They would be up for grabs (as they are now) if the conversion certain of the banks liabilities into regulatory capital were insufficient to bring the bank back to solvency.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> The proposed bail-in regime would allow for the “rapid conversion of certain bank liabilities into *regulatory capital*”. A bank’s “regulatory capital” is composed mainly of common stock held by owners, not depositors.


Does regulatory capital include all those various uninsured funds such as money market funds, bond funds........... that the bank officials try so hard to get customers to "invest" in?

EDIT See you already answered that. Obviously since selling seized bank stock would produce no real capital and bonds would likely come no where close to satisfying the IMF greed, if it ain't in almost zero return savings it may not be there at all.

The only good news here is that I believe most Canadian banks are leveraged to about 9:1 whereas Cyprus was closer to 100:1 with much of that tied up in Greek bailout bonds at the insistence of the IMF.

Still even 9:1 leaves banks incredibly vulnerable should the Banksters decide to start raising interest rates. Most US banks that weathered the post 2008 crash more or less intact were leveraged at 7:1.


----------



## CubaMark

I see from the news today that we have definitive proof now - Harper is not an Apple fan..... :lmao:

*iPod tax an 'accidental' part of 2013 budget, prof thinks*



> Three out of the four types of iPods made by Apple will be subject to tariff increases introduced in the 2013 federal budget, including the iPod Shuffle.





> a news release from the NDP, which scornfully recalled how the Harper government reacted in 2010 against any suggestion of a tax on iPods.
> 
> "(Heritage) Minister James Moore and (Treasury Board President) Tony Clement must be furious about this development, since it contradicts previous statements they've made against implementing an iPod tax," the news release said.


(CBC)


----------



## groovetube

How'd that get in there?


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> How'd that get in there?


It didn't:



> A spokeswoman for Finance Minister Jim Flaherty denies there is an iPod tax, saying *the devices are imported into Canada duty-free under a long-standing special tariff classification from 1987.*
> 
> "*That special tariff classification was in no way altered by recent changes* to the General Preferential Tariff foreign aid program," said Kathleen Perchaluk in an email Thursday.


----------



## SINC

I wouldn't place a wager on the Liberals being in power in two years time


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep things are on the up n up, eh jeb?
Loonie tumbles on disappointing jobs, trade readings - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

*No, Canada is not the next Cyprus*



eMacMan said:


> Does regulatory capital include all those various uninsured funds such as money market funds, bond funds........... that the bank officials try so hard to get customers to "invest" in?
> 
> EDIT See you already answered that. Obviously since selling seized bank stock would produce no real capital and bonds would likely come no where close to satisfying the IMF greed, if it ain't in almost zero return savings it may not be there at all.
> 
> The only good news here is that I believe most Canadian banks are leveraged to about 9:1 whereas Cyprus was closer to 100:1 with much of that tied up in Greek bailout bonds at the insistence of the IMF.
> 
> Still even 9:1 leaves banks incredibly vulnerable should the Banksters decide to start raising interest rates. Most US banks that weathered the post 2008 crash more or less intact were leveraged at 7:1.


For those in the tinfoil hat wearing crowd.

No, Canada is not the next Cyprus



> The notion that Canada’s government has quietly orchestrated a Cyprus-style response to an impending bank failure, and that the big banks are coming for your savings, is a thing of beauty, as far as conspiracy theories go.
> 
> It’s in a regulatory area that’s difficult to understand, and so difficult for most laypeople to immediately disprove without doing a little research first. And it has elements that appeal to both extremes of the political spectrum.
> 
> So if you favour the left, you can go on over to the Centre for Research on Globalization and read Michel Chossudovsky on how a small section in the recent Canadian budget is all part of a global scheme by the banking sector to consolidate its political power. “Financial jargon serves to obfuscate the real intent which essentially consists in stealing people’s savings.”
> 
> Or if you favour the right, you can check out Judi McLeod’s article “Is Canada the next Cyprus?” at Canada Free Press. In that analysis, it’s all Barack Obama’s fault.
> 
> The headlines in the mainstream media are not much less hysterical.
> 
> “Ottawa crafts rules for Cyprus-style ‘bail-in,’ ” proclaimed a recent headline in the Toronto Star.
> 
> Brian Lilley of the Sun writes on his blog that “Canada has a new regime for possible bank failure and it looks exactly like Cyprus.”
> 
> And over at CBC.ca, you can read Neil Macdonald: “Ottawa is contemplating the possibility of a Canadian bank failure — and the same sort of pitiless prescription that was just imposed in Cyprus.”
> 
> Canada’s really not contemplating anything of the sort.
> 
> Here’s what has everybody so worried: On page 145 of the recent federal budget, “The Government proposes to implement a ‘bail-in’ regime for systemically important banks. This regime will be designed to ensure that, in the unlikely event that a systematically important bank depletes its capital, the bank can be recapitalized and returned to viability through the very rapid conversion of certain bank liabilities into regulatory capital. This will reduce risks for taxpayers.”
> 
> Granted, “certain bank liabilities” is neither clear nor precise. And this government does seem to enjoy slipping big news into the most tedious sections of the budget. But there is no reason to think that Canada is even close to becoming “the next Cyprus.”
> 
> It is prudent for Canada to have a plan for its big banks in the unlikely event of near-collapse. So what is that plan? The government proposes that banks set aside rainy-day assets, which they would then use to shore themselves up if the worst happened.
> 
> Unfortunately, Canada uses the inelegant term “bail-in” to describe this, which brings to mind the proposal for Cyprus to impose a 9.9-per-cent levy on uninsured bank deposits, and a 6.75-per-cent levy on insured deposits. Cyprus wisely chose not to go that route, so insured deposits will be protected, but many people are still losing money.
> 
> No one is proposing that Canada impose a levy on bank deposits.
> 
> It shouldn’t need saying, but apparently it does: Canada is not Cyprus. The Cypriot banking sector is bloated and unstable in a way that Canada’s is not. And Canada, last I checked, is not part of the eurozone.
> 
> And in fact, the stated motivation behind the Canadian plan is to prevent the banks having to turn to taxpayers or depositors. The idea, as the finance department clarified this week, is that the banks would set aside something with which to rescue themselves.
> 
> Here’s how Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney described the general idea in a 2010 speech: “An example of a promising market-based mechanism is to embed contingent capital and bail-in features into unsecured market debt and preferred shares issued by financial institutions. Contingent capital is a security that converts to capital when a financial institution is in serious trouble, thereby replenishing capital without the use of taxpayer funds. Contingent conversions could be embedded in all future new issues of senior unsecured debt and subordinated securities to create a broader bail-in approach. Its presence would also discipline management, since common shareholders would be incented to act prudently to avoid having their stakes diluted by conversion.”
> 
> That’s not “exactly like Cyprus.” It’s almost nothing like the response in Cyprus, which reacted to the imprudence of its banking sector by musing about massive taxes on all bank accounts, locking down banks and restricting transactions.
> 
> “The ‘bail-in’ scenario described in the Budget has nothing to do with consumer deposits and they are not part of the ‘bail-in’ regime,” says Kathleen Perchaluk, the finance minister’s press secretary, in an emailed statement. “Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangement, a failing financial institution has to tap into its own special reserves or assets (which it has been forced to put aside) to keep its operations going.”
> 
> Nothing to do with consumer deposits. Yes, only deposits up to $100,000 are insured by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. That isn’t new and it isn’t changing. But there isn’t some new scheme to steal your savings account.
> 
> Canada’s evolving plan might not be perfect. As the confusion this week shows, it would be wise for the government to explain precisely what it intends, what is likely and what is possible. If there is a lesson Canada can learn from Cyprus, it’s that contingency plans should exist and they should be transparent and predictable.
> 
> In the meantime, let’s all calm down.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep things are on the up n up, eh jeb?
> Loonie tumbles on disappointing jobs, trade readings - The Globe and Mail


Where are the people who were complaining about Dutch Disease? This should make them really happy!


----------



## groovetube

Canada jobs: Unemployment rate rises as economy sheds 54,500 jobs | Economy | News | Financial Post

More bad news, though some will blame it on the US, or Europe, or something that takes the sting out of this.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Canada jobs: Unemployment rate rises as economy sheds 54,500 jobs | Economy | News | Financial Post
> 
> More bad news, though some will blame it on the US, or Europe, or something that takes the sting out of this.


Employers in the US added 88,000 jobs in March. The jobless rate dipped to 7.6 percent from 7.7 percent. Maybe Canada could take credit for this, and blame our dip on the US ............... it would be a "win-win" for the Harper government. :clap::clap:


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I see from the news today that we have definitive proof now - Harper is not an Apple fan..... :lmao:
> 
> *iPod tax an 'accidental' part of 2013 budget, prof thinks*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)





groovetube said:


> How'd that get in there?





heavyall said:


> It didn't:



At least the G&M was responsible enough to publish a retraction... lets see if the CBC and CTV will have enough professionalism and decency to do the same.

Correction: No iPod tax 




> An article published earlier at this URL incorrectly stated that the recent Canadian federal budget imposes a tax on iPods. That article was incorrect and has been withdrawn.


We can't expect the NDP to apologize that's for sure.


----------



## i-rui

it seems the ipod tariff is still up in the air :

Feds tighten tariff exemption on TVs, iPods by demanding consumer proof of use

while it's clear the conservatives didn't mean to impose a new tariff ,it's a bit murky at the moment on how the tariff is being interpreted. It will certainly have to be clarified. what is clear is that many other electronic devices will get dinged.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Employers in the US added 88,000 jobs in March. The jobless rate dipped to 7.6 percent from 7.7 percent. Maybe Canada could take credit for this, and blame our dip on the US ............... it would be a "win-win" for the Harper government. :clap::clap:


Dr. G., are you certain your title is not that of spin-doctor:



> The US added only 88,000 new jobs in March, *less than half the figure economists had been expecting*. The figure is the first since Washington implemented deep spending cuts across the budget at the start of the month.
> 
> *The unemployment rate dipped slightly to 7.6% but only because 496,000 people stopped looking for work *and fell out of the workforce.


March jobs report shows slowdown in hiring with only 88,000 jobs added | Business | guardian.co.uk


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> it seems the ipod tariff is still up in the air :
> 
> Feds tighten tariff exemption on TVs, iPods by demanding consumer proof of use
> 
> while it's clear the conservatives didn't mean to impose a new tariff ,it's a bit murky at the moment on how the tariff is being interpreted. It will certainly have to be clarified. what is clear is that many other electronic devices will get dinged.


Also, it should be noted that it probably isn't a 'tax', but a levy which is not a government tax. Perhaps that's the retraction reason?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it seems the ipod tariff is still up in the air :
> 
> Feds tighten tariff exemption on TVs, iPods by demanding consumer proof of use
> 
> while it's clear the conservatives didn't mean to impose a new tariff ,it's a bit murky at the moment on how the tariff is being interpreted. It will certainly have to be clarified. what is clear is that many other electronic devices will get dinged.





groovetube said:


> Also, it should be noted that it probably isn't a 'tax', but a levy which is not a government tax. Perhaps that's the retraction reason?


How much more clear do you want it to be:



> "*Music devices like iPods are imported into Canada duty-free under a long-standing special tariff classification from 1987*," Kathleen Perchaluk, Flaherty's spokeswoman, said in an email Thursday.
> 
> "*That special tariff classification was in no way altered by recent changes to the General Preferential Tariff foreign aid program.*"


----------



## i-rui

obviously it needs to be more clear. from the link i posted :



> But as recently as Dec. 7, the CBSA informed one importer in writing that the "iPod Touch 8GB" is subject to end-user verification in order to get the tariff exemption, according to correspondence obtained by The Canadian Press.





> "The larger thing that is coming out of all this is that the rules are so vague and so open to interpretation that you could probably ask 10 different people at the CBSA and I suspect you're going to get 10 different answers," economist Mike Moffatt, assistant professor at the Richard Ivey School of Business, said in an interview.


and watching power & politics last night the "special tariff classification" for ipods is devices that are plugged into computers are exempt. But that is vague because an ipod isn't always plugged in (perhaps that's where the confusion comes from?)


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dr. G., are you certain your title is not that of spin-doctor:
> 
> 
> 
> March jobs report shows slowdown in hiring with only 88,000 jobs added | Business | guardian.co.uk


Hey, the Harper Government of Canada can use all the help it can get in these troubled times. Get with the program, or get out of the kitchen. We don't need any "negative Nellies" causing negative vibes.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> obviously it needs to be more clear. from the link i posted :
> 
> and watching power & politics last night the "special tariff classification" for ipods is devices that are plugged into computers are exempt. But that is vague because an ipod isn't always plugged in (perhaps that's where the confusion comes from?)


The confusion exists in the minds of some people who want to try and portray the situation as being murky (perhaps because of political gamesmanship)... 

But the government is being very clear, nothing has changed when it comes to iPods.


----------



## i-rui

seems pretty murky to me :

The mystery of the budget, the iPod and the tariff code - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Hey, the Harper Government of Canada can use all the help it can get in these troubled times. Get with the program, or get out of the kitchen. We don't need any "negative Nellies" causing negative vibes.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Perhaps Canada can also get people to leave the workforce permanently so our unemployment rate will drop.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> seems pretty murky to me :
> 
> The mystery of the budget, the iPod and the tariff code - The Globe and Mail


I saw that. It's still murky.

Will see how this plays out.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Perhaps Canada can also get people to leave the workforce permanently so our unemployment rate will drop.


That's the Libertarian way of doing things. Here in the Harper Government of Canada's capitalism, we give people the means to get a job and earn a living. From this little seed, a tree that is a taxpayer is born ............. and then a forest of taxpayers is born from this start. Get with the program. Stop trying to impose a US system on Canada. PM Harper is NOT Pres. Obama.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

I missed this news bit, it's a little over a week old, but it made me sick.

Former TTC honcho convicted of assaulting foster child spared jail | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

So, because he was a 'contributing member of society' and showed remorse, he gets a mere slap on the wrist for sexually assaulting his foster child and impregnating her.

And before we hear about 'liberal judges' apparently this was a Harper appointed judge.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/

Take a look at last night's show on the SNC Lavalin scandal(s). Lots of dirty Liberal and Conservative hands involved - which explains why this filthy company is still getting contracts across Canada. 

Interesting to note SNC chair Gwyn Morgan's resignation this week. Another so called "ethical conservative" getting caught in a compromising position. 

BTW, when do we get Mulroney's $2 million payment back after he admitted to taking cash?


----------



## iMouse

Noblesse oblige.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I missed this news bit, it's a little over a week old, but it made me sick.
> 
> Former TTC honcho convicted of assaulting foster child spared jail | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun
> 
> So, because he was a 'contributing member of society' and showed remorse, he gets a mere slap on the wrist for sexually assaulting his foster child and impregnating her.
> 
> And before we hear about 'liberal judges' apparently this was a Harper appointed judge.


That may be why we refer to them as Cons.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> That may be why we refer to them as Cons.


It's interesting that some of the people on EhMac who argued for judges being allowed greater discretion in sentencing cases involving such issues as marijuana, are now upset that judges use that same discretion to be more lenient on someone who assaulted a child. Greater discretion is a two-way street.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> It's interesting that some of the people on EhMac who argued for judges being allowed greater discretion in sentencing cases involving such issues as marijuana, are now upset that judges use that same discretion to be more lenient on someone who assaulted a child. Greater discretion is a two-way street.


Not that there is any difference between altering one's mind with individual choice vs. harming someone else as a pedophile. 
Libertarians?


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I missed this news bit, it's a little over a week old, but it made me sick.
> 
> Former TTC honcho convicted of assaulting foster child spared jail | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun
> 
> So, because he was a 'contributing member of society' and showed remorse, he gets a mere slap on the wrist for sexually assaulting his foster child and impregnating her.
> 
> And before we hear about 'liberal judges' apparently this was a Harper appointed judge.


I don't know what Harper thought he was getting when he appointed her, but Justice Jane Kelly has a history of bleeding heart decisions, especially with respect to sex offenders. She's the poster child of what people mean when they say "liberal judges".

If nothing else, it sure shows how dumb the people opposed to Conservative "tough on crime" were. Clearly, they're still nowhere near tough enough.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not that there is any difference between altering one's mind with individual choice vs. harming someone else as a pedophile.
> Libertarians?


No difference in the concept of judicial discretion.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> I don't know what Harper thought he was getting when he appointed her, but Justice Jane Kelly has a history of bleeding heart decisions, especially with respect to sex offenders. She's the poster child of what people mean when they say "liberal judges".
> 
> If nothing else, it sure shows how dumb the people opposed to Conservative "tough on crime" were. Clearly, they're still nowhere near tough enough.


This isn't 'liberal' it's incompetent. 

Regardless of which political leanings a judge may have, it's important that the judge actually be qualified to know the difference of when leniency is appropriate, and not.

This whole 'liberal vs con' stuff is merely a cop out for do nothing politicians looking for ways to dupe the voting public.

And from what I can see, it works wonders.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> I don't know what Harper thought he was getting when he appointed her, but Justice Jane Kelly has a history of bleeding heart decisions, especially with respect to sex offenders. She's the poster child of what people mean when they say "liberal judges".
> 
> If nothing else, it sure shows how dumb the people opposed to Conservative "tough on crime" were. Clearly, they're still nowhere near tough enough.


This Conservative pound of flesh or eye for an eye, victim wallowing "what about me" whining really is getting old. Conservative's desire for vengeance was the path taken by those in them Excited States that led to that failed public policy. 

The criminal justice system, as the judge in this case pointed out, "can't make the victim whole." It was never designed to punish perpetrators to the satisfaction of the aggrieved. 

The justice system is designed to assess risk to society. To provide a deterrence for future violations based on an examination of the facts.

How would giving the sex abuser life in prison, provide a better life for the assaulted woman in example case?

Why aren't some conservatives or other citizens banding together to help the woman, in this case, to sue the pants off the former TTC boss? Why not financially secure the woman's future or the care and future of the child involved?

Could it be the SUN article leave much to be desired with regard to reporting all of the facts in the situation outlined in the article?


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> This isn't 'liberal' it's incompetent.


Same thing


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Same thing


 Oh! What passes for another, well reasoned out and well researched, articulate argument from the right thinking side of the political spectrum.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Oh! What passes for another, well reasoned out and well researched, articulate argument from the right thinking side of the political spectrum.


You've forgotten which person you were debating. Follow the thread backwards!!


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Same thing


I could say the same for conservative. Does that help?

Once again, you're just falling for the great scam.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> This Conservative pound of flesh or eye for an eye, victim wallowing "what about me" whining really is getting old. Conservative's desire for vengeance was the path taken by those in them Excited States that led to that failed public policy.
> 
> The criminal justice system, as the judge in this case pointed out, "can't make the victim whole." It was never designed to punish perpetrators to the satisfaction of the aggrieved.
> 
> The justice system is designed to assess risk to society. To provide a deterrence for future violations based on an examination of the facts.
> 
> How would giving the sex abuser life in prison, provide a better life for the assaulted woman in example case?
> 
> Why aren't some conservatives or other citizens banding together to help the woman, in this case, to sue the pants off the former TTC boss? Why not financially secure the woman's future or the care and future of the child involved?
> 
> Could it be the SUN article leave much to be desired with regard to reporting all of the facts in the situation outlined in the article?


Interesting point. One that is clearly not even addressed. Though I still think this perp should have gotten far more for his crime.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The justice system is designed to assess risk to society. To provide a deterrence for future violations based on an examination of the facts.


And to punish the perpetrators of crime.



BigDL said:


> How would giving the sex abuser life in prison, provide a better life for the assaulted woman in example case?


By providing her with at least the notion that the crime had been addressed and justice had been done. Even if that woman's life does not improve, the perp must be punished to deter others from repeating his crimes.



BigDL said:


> Why aren't some conservatives or other citizens banding together to help the woman, in this case, to sue the pants off the former TTC boss? Why not financially secure the woman's future or the care and future of the child involved?


Because the courts are not likely to listen to such pleas after decades of liberal-style justice.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I could say the same for conservative. Does that help?
> 
> Once again, you're just falling for the great scam.


It doesn't help because the analogy is false, and it misses the point.

When it comes to justice, taking a liberal (soft) position is incompetence.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> It doesn't help because the analogy is false, and it misses the point.
> 
> When it comes to justice, taking a liberal (soft) position is incompetence.


You seem to be under the false assumption that being 'soft' in justice is a liberal thing.

It's as if it's some sort of tick, if the punishment doesn't seem strong enough for the offence, somehow, it's 'liberal'. It's almost as if the idea that a judge with conservative leanings have never rendered punishments that could be considered 'soft' as credible.

I suppose everyone needs some sort of boogeyman to explain the hypocrisies of their politic.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> You seem to be under the false assumption that being 'soft' in justice is a liberal thing.


It's not a false assumption, it's a core tenet of modern liberalism.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> It's not a false assumption, it's a core tenet of modern liberalism.


Really? If I were to take that with any sort of credibility, then why did Harper appoint that^^ judge, and this one?

Seems you've bought some swampland that's going to cost a whole lot of money, and accomplish pretty much nada. WHich seems to be a bit of a hallmark with this con government.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It's not a false assumption, it's a core tenet of modern liberalism.


Exactly. Those who see in the current Prime Minister a bastion of hard-nosed conservatism are simply misguided. He's the current best hope we've got even though he often kowtows to liberalism. A judge appointed by Harper can go either way.


----------



## groovetube

Here's a hard reality in case it's not clear.

Conservatives have -proven- that they are no more effective on crime than the liberals. At all. This idea that the incompetence, is a liberal thing, is for those who don't mind being led down the garden path in my opinion. The 2 example judges appointed by our conservative government, is merely a fraction of the problems. But there's always an excuse for everything isn't there. Well excuses don't cut it I'm afraid.

This yearning for guillotines and town square stocks is proving to be nothing but one hugely expensive failure. Just look south of the border, where they have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

But not everyone likes such hard evidence it appears, but prefers sound bytes and shouts of 'ra ra ra'! Let's git em!


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Here's a hard reality in case it's not clear.
> 
> Conservatives have -proven- that they are no more effective on crime than the liberals. At all. This idea that the incompetence, is a liberal thing, is for those who don't mind being led down the garden path in my opinion. The 2 example judges appointed by our conservative government, is merely a fraction of the problems. But there's always an excuse for everything isn't there. Well excuses don't cut it I'm afraid.
> 
> This yearning for guillotines and town square stocks is proving to be nothing but one hugely expensive failure. Just look south of the border, where they have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
> 
> But not everyone likes such hard evidence it appears, but prefers sound bytes and shouts of 'ra ra ra'! Let's git em!


Seem the following Conservative proposition was forgotten "I have a rope an' I know where'sa good tree."  

If modern liberalism can be concisely encapsulated in pithy nonsense then Conservatives seem to love them some strange fruit by times as a fair turnabout.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> A judge appointed by Harper can go either way.


That's all we need trans-sexual judges!

Jeez Libertarians!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Here's a hard reality in case it's not clear.
> 
> Conservatives have -proven- that they are no more effective on crime than the liberals. At all. This idea that the incompetence, is a liberal thing, is for those who don't mind being led down the garden path in my opinion. The 2 example judges appointed by our conservative government, is merely a fraction of the problems. But there's always an excuse for everything isn't there. Well excuses don't cut it I'm afraid.
> 
> This yearning for guillotines and town square stocks is proving to be nothing but one hugely expensive failure. Just look south of the border, where they have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
> 
> But not everyone likes such hard evidence it appears, but prefers sound bytes and shouts of 'ra ra ra'! Let's git em!


The minute Toews speaking from a script Harper approved of telling the majority of Canadians they were with the Pornographers said it all. 

Gotta move on from this sham.


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The minute Toews speaking from a script Harper approved of telling the majority of Canadians they were with the Pornographers said it all.
> 
> Gotta move on from this sham.


The Harpolites distaste for the kiddie porn crowd evaporates when the perpetrator is a loyal Con-tributor.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Here's a hard reality in case it's not clear.
> 
> Conservatives have -proven- that they are no more effective on crime than the liberals. At all. This idea that the incompetence, is a liberal thing, is for those who don't mind being led down the garden path in my opinion. The 2 example judges appointed by our conservative government, is merely a fraction of the problems. But there's always an excuse for everything isn't there. Well excuses don't cut it I'm afraid.
> 
> This yearning for guillotines and town square stocks is proving to be nothing but one hugely expensive failure. Just look south of the border, where they have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
> 
> But not everyone likes such hard evidence it appears, but prefers sound bytes and shouts of 'ra ra ra'! Let's git em!


It's difficult to debate you when your understanding of politics is so limited that you don't even understand that conservative/Conservative (and liberal/Liberal) are not the same things. Then you top that ignorance off with ridiculous hyperbole about guillotines, etc, and one wonders if you've had a head injury, because you sure are not making any rational arguments here.

Soft on crime, bleeding heart, hug a thug mentality is a liberal trait. Period. Doesn't matter what party they belong to. If they think the criminal does not deserve punishment, they ARE a liberal. Harper may be the leader of the party that uses the name Consevative, but many of his actions have been anything but conservative. The thing that has him at odds with some of his caucus (and increasingly with many of his supporters) is that he has not been a very conservative Prime Minister -- he's far too left-wing for many conservative's liking.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> It's difficult to debate you when your understanding of politics is so limited that you don't even understand that conservative/Conservative (and liberal/Liberal) are not the same things. Then you top that ignorance off with ridiculous hyperbole about guillotines, etc, and one wonders if you've had a head injury, because you sure are not making any rational arguments here.
> 
> Soft on crime, bleeding heart, hug a thug mentality is a liberal trait. Period. Doesn't matter what party they belong to. If they think the criminal does not deserve punishment, they ARE a liberal. Harper may be the leader of the party that uses the name Consevative, but many of his actions have been anything but conservative. The thing that has him at odds with some of his caucus (and increasingly with many of his supporters) is that he has not been a very conservative Prime Minister -- he's far too left-wing for many conservative's liking.


I know I may have upset you with the debunking of this notion that conservatives are somehow more effective at punishing crime. I can assure you I do indeed have a good understanding of liberal vs conservative, however, my assertions are based in reality, not some sort of emotional attachment to conservatives = tough on crime, and liberals = soft on crime.

Real life examples make a total mockery of that, and I will say it's difficult to debate you if you only wish to promote theories that have no basis in fact.

Especially in light of seeing a supposed tough on crime conservative prime minister appointing a judge who let's a rapist off because the woman was apparently 'asking for it'.

That's tough on crime alright.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I know I may have upset you with the debunking of this notion that conservatives are somehow more effective at punishing crime. I can assure you I do indeed have a good understanding of liberal vs conservative, however, my assertions are based in reality, not some sort of emotional attachment to conservatives = tough on crime, and liberals = soft on crime.
> 
> Real life examples make a total mockery of that, and I will say it's difficult to debate you if you only wish to promote theories that have no basis in fact.
> 
> Especially in light of seeing a supposed tough on crime conservative prime minister appointing a judge who let's a rapist off because the woman was apparently 'asking for it'.
> 
> That's tough on crime alright.


You say you understand the difference, then go on to write several paragraphs that painstakingly prove that you have no idea. You're still mixing up the terms, and applying the wrong meanings to them.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> You say you understand the difference, then go on to write several paragraphs that painstakingly prove that you have no idea. You're still mixing up the terms, and applying the wrong meanings to them.


I suggest that rather than spending your time saying I have no idea because of what I wrote, you say why.

Otherwise it's meaningless.

I may not agree with you, but this whole 'you have no idea' stuff is useless.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Seem the following Conservative proposition was forgotten "I have a rope an' I know where'sa good tree."
> 
> If modern liberalism can be concisely encapsulated in pithy nonsense then Conservatives seem to love them some strange fruit by times as a fair turnabout.


ha ha ha.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I suggest that rather than spending your time saying I have no idea because of what I wrote, you say why.
> 
> Otherwise it's meaningless.
> 
> I may not agree with you, but this whole 'you have no idea' stuff is useless.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Nice to see the high road taken especially in this particular thread. Good job


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Nice to see the high road taken especially in this particular thread. Good job


too often people check out once throwing out a bunch of assertions out get questioned.

I'm not going to convince anyone here likely, but I will say what I think. I'd prefer it be addressed head on, rather than this 'you're a know nothing' uselessness. 

That just says I got nothing better to say to me.


----------



## iMouse

Building new prisons, to house these scum, costs big money.

Money better spent being a big player on the World stage.

You must remember that all politicians, of whatever stripe, have grandiose ideas as to their importance in this World.

(With apologies to Tommy Douglas.)


----------



## groovetube

oh but it wasn't going to cost any (much) money. I was confronted aggressively here before for even suggesting that.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Nice to see the high road taken especially in this particular thread. Good job


"Let the circle be unbroken-n-n-n-n-n-n-n..."


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> "Let the circle be unbroken-n-n-n-n-n-n-n..."


Right on, Brother Macfury. Amen, mon ami.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLFbUbmH7To]Johnny Cash & Family - Will The Circle Be Unbroken - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Right on, Brother Macfury. Amen, mon ami.
> 
> Johnny Cash & Family - Will The Circle Be Unbroken - YouTube


indeed...

testify!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> indeed...
> 
> testify!


Amen, Brother gt. Praise the Lord .............. and pass the tax dollars.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Hopefully, the Minister Kenney will stand by his words. If I had my accounts at RBC I would be withdrawing them ASAP if they go through with these firings. We shall see. 

"However, it is against federal rules for any company to bring foreign workers into Canada temporarily if it will put citizens out of work.

“The rules are very clear. You cannot displace Canadians to hire people from abroad,” said Immigration Minister Jason Kenney."

RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers - British Columbia - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Hopefully, the Minister Kenney will stand by his words. If I had my accounts at RBC I would be withdrawing them ASAP if they go through with these firings. We shall see.
> 
> "However, it is against federal rules for any company to bring foreign workers into Canada temporarily if it will put citizens out of work.
> 
> “The rules are very clear. You cannot displace Canadians to hire people from abroad,” said Immigration Minister Jason Kenney."
> 
> RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers - British Columbia - CBC News


Yes an Royal Boy Cot would seem to be in order. 

While King Harpo clearly worships greed perhaps he will make an exception and give Massa Kenney an appopriate sound bite to allow him to revoke those visas.


----------



## groovetube

Omnibus bill exposes ‘pragmatic’ Stephen Harper as a radical | Toronto Star

An eye opening article written by Ed Broadbent, which I'm sure will be quickly dismissed as nonsense as per usual, but I'm not so sure. Every indication I have seen from this government is that this is bang on.

This line sums it up quite well for me, about Harper's clear wrong headed approach.



> The serious problem in Canada is a slack economy, not an abundance of slackers.


Back to calling people lazy and overpaid. What a pile of crap that is.


----------



## eMacMan

Despite the various protests, the bail-in provisions in the budget are pretty much identical to what is going down in Cyprus.

While Canada can smugly proclaim that our banks would never be bullied into investing in Greek bonds, I am sure Goldman Sachs et al offer plenty of equally iffy products.

I think any bank officer that gets a salary and bonuses totaling more that $100,000 a year, should have to post a five year bond on the income above that 100K figure. If bail-in funds are needed, those executive bonds should be the first to go, with the execs on the hook to pay back the bond issuer. Let the bums responsible for compromising a banks financial integrity be the very first to feel the pain should the bank fail. Were King Harpo to add this provision to his budget I would happily applaud him.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Despite the various protests, the bail-in provisions in the budget are pretty much identical to what is going down in Cyprus.*
> 
> While Canada can smugly proclaim that our banks would never be bullied into investing in Greek bonds, I am sure Goldman Sachs et al offer plenty of equally iffy products.
> 
> I think any bank officer that gets a salary and bonuses totaling more that $100,000 a year, should have to post a five year bond on the income above that 100K figure. If bail-in funds are needed, those executive bonds should be the first to go, with the execs on the hook to pay back the bond issuer. Let the bums responsible for compromising a banks financial integrity be the very first to feel the pain should the bank fail. Were King Harpo to add this provision to his budget I would happily applaud him.


Despite the facts that prove you are wrong in this statement you continue to make it without any evidence to back it up... just specualtain and opinion. Typical.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Despite the facts that prove you are wrong in this statement you continue to make it without any evidence to back it up... just specualtain and opinion. Typical.


I'm still waiting to see some proof of the supposed provision that will allow the IRS to have access to Canadian bank accounts.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I'm still waiting to see some proof of the supposed provision that will allow the IRS to have access to Canadian bank accounts.


Where did IRS come up with relation to bail-ins.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> Where did IRS come up with relation to bail-ins.


 :clap::clap: When they have no argument on topic they'll introduce other topics to confuse and confound. 

In a best case scenario the topic will change away from, criticism of the Harper Conservatives, to Obama bashing in the "Canadian Political Thread."

Good catch eMM.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Where did IRS come up with relation to bail-ins.


It's in relation to topics you have introduced in this thread where there appears to be no proof.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Despite the facts that prove you are wrong in this statement you continue to make it without any evidence to back it up... just specualtain and opinion. Typical.


Lets see. Canada's banks have secured deposits up to $100,000 per customer. Cyprus Banks have secured depositors up to $100,000 per customer.

Canadian Banks have unsecured deposits. Customers with over $100,000. Deposits in various mutual funds and money market accounts.... Cyprus banks had unsecured deposits. Customers with over $100,000. Deposits in various mutual funds and money market accounts....

Canadian banks increase their profits by borrowing against the secured and unsecured deposits by a factor of 9. They borrow from the Banksters and re-invest those leveraged funds in various ways, some risky, some relatively safe but again mainly through the really big Banksters. Similarly Cyprus Banks borrowed heavily from the IMF and were forced to re-invest a certain percentage in very risky IMF Greek bail-out bonds.

When the Cyprus Banks were forced to bail-in. The really rich Russians were informed ahead of time and even after the Banks were closed were allowed to continue to withdraw their unsecured deposits via a back door Russian affiliate bank. The remaining unsecured deposits were then stolen to pay off the IMF. Similarly if a major Canadian Bank were to fail the bail-in provisions would be used to take money from unsecured deposits to repay the Banksters as enshrined in the budget. 

Clearly the right way to do this is to pay out the secured deposits, then as far as possible the unsecured deposits, leaving the Banksters hung out to dry.

For all the noise from the Con worshippers they have yet to clearly establish that unsecured depositors would take precedence over money owed the Banksters. 

Interestingly TD for sure and I believe most of the other Big Canadian banks now have US branches. Are they preparing a back door for their über rich unsecured depositors? After all if there is a meltdown we do want to limit the damage. OK to skim a portion from retirees savings not so good if the damage extends to the elite.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Lets see. Canada's banks have secured deposits up to $100,000 per customer. Cyprus Banks have secured depositors up to $100,000 per customer.


And how does this prove your supposition that someone is planning to relieve depositors of  all uninsured deposits?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> And how does this prove your supposition that someone is planning to relieve depositors of all uninsured deposits?


That is the definition of a bail-in.


----------



## eMacMan

More or less an FYI



> OTTAWA - Prime Minister Stephen Harper has announced a byelection will be held in the riding of Labrador on May 13.
> 
> The seat in Newfoundland and Labrador was vacated by former cabinet minister Peter Penashue last month, after he acknowledged his campaign received ineligible donations in the 2011 general election.
> 
> Penashue paid back $48,000 to the Receiver General of Canada, and blamed the problems on an inexperienced campaign volunteer.
> 
> Penashue is running for the seat again, with Harper's full backing...........


This one might be interesting as the Liberals were a very close second last time around. 

FWIW The only local Newfie has serious doubts as to the veracity of the official explanation. Something about trusting an unindoctrinated volunteer with money.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> More or less an FYI
> 
> This one might be interesting as the Liberals were a very close second last time around.
> 
> FWIW The only local Newfie has serious doubts as to the veracity of the official explanation. Something about trusting an unindoctrinated volunteer with money.


The former head of the provincial Liberal party here in NL is running against him, and she is from that district and has been working hard for her district here in NL. PM Harper is just backing a former cabinet minister who still says he is innocent and it was all the fault of someone he hired. So, we shall see.

FYI, the term "Newfie" is not used here anymore. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> The former head of the provincial Liberal party here in NL is running against him, and she is from that district and has been working hard for her district here in NL. PM Harper is just backing a former cabinet minister who still says he is innocent and it was all the fault of someone he hired. So, we shall see.
> 
> FYI, the term "Newfie" is not used here anymore. Paix, mon ami.


Ah but those who are far from home still use it with evident pride.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> That is the definition of a bail-in.


There have been uninsured deposits in banks for a hundred years. it is not a new thing.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> There have been uninsured deposits in banks for a hundred years. it is not a new thing.


What is new is that the Banksters have managed to get most countries to declare them lower priority than repaying the Banksters should there be bank meltdown. King Harpo is just following his marching orders on this one.


----------



## heavyall

Dr.G. said:


> Hopefully, the Minister Kenney will stand by his words. If I had my accounts at RBC I would be withdrawing them ASAP if they go through with these firings. We shall see.
> 
> "However, it is against federal rules for any company to bring foreign workers into Canada temporarily if it will put citizens out of work.
> 
> “The rules are very clear. You cannot displace Canadians to hire people from abroad,” said Immigration Minister Jason Kenney."
> 
> RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers - British Columbia - CBC News


I am a Royal Customer, and I'm torn. If I withdraw my accounts from RBC, how does that help the local employees that I have a relationship with? Less customers is a reason for the bank to lay-off/replace even more of them.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> I am a Royal Customer, and I'm torn. If I withdraw my accounts from RBC, how does that help the local employees that I have a relationship with? Less customers is a reason for the bank to lay-off/replace even more of them.


FWIW ATMs have already greatly reduced local staffing levels.

I have long since closed my accounts with the Big Banks, but if I still had one I would talk to the local manager and explain that if RBC goes ahead with this nonsense, I will probably be moving my accounts to a credit union.

Enough negative feedback from enough local branch managers could reverse this.

Or you could hope that King Harpo will go so far as to enforce the law as it stands, rather than changing it for the convenience of RBC. Not too likely but what the hey?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> :clap::clap: When they have no argument on topic they'll introduce other topics to confuse and confound.
> 
> In a best case scenario the topic will change away from, criticism of the Harper Conservatives, to Obama bashing in the "Canadian Political Thread."
> 
> Good catch eMM.


:lmao:

Big surprise.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> FWIW ATMs have already greatly reduced local staffing levels.
> 
> I have long since closed my accounts with the Big Banks, but if I still had one I would talk to the local manager and explain that if RBC goes ahead with this nonsense, I will probably be moving my accounts to a credit union.
> 
> Enough negative feedback from enough local branch managers could reverse this.
> 
> Or you could hope that King Harpo will go so far as to enforce the law as it stands, rather than changing it for the convenience of RBC. Not too likely but what the hey?


well so much for the whole free market will let the consumer decide who's best nonsense eh? :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Ah but those who are far from home still use it with evident pride.


Actually, it is considered a slur, a throwback to the days when the "dumb Newfie" was the butt of most jokes in Canada. Now that we are a have province and contributing to the welfare of other Canadians, we take pride in being from The Province of Newfoundland and Labrador ......... aka Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> I am a Royal Customer, and I'm torn. If I withdraw my accounts from RBC, how does that help the local employees that I have a relationship with? Less customers is a reason for the bank to lay-off/replace even more of them.


A valid concern, heavyall.


----------



## Dr.G.

I now understand the rationale of RBC's decision to outsource work. For such a company, just hanging on economically, it makes perfect sense. As well, their CEO can now receive his deserved salary and bonus. Imagine someone having to make due after taking a $2.5 million dollar pay CUT????

"Royal Bank of Canada has announced a dividend increase along with its latest financial report, which included a record profit at RBC's core segment and adjusted earnings that beat analyst estimates.

Royal's overall first-quarter net income was up by $215 million to $2.07 billion, or $1.36 per share, on revenue of $7.9 billion. The banks says its adjusted earnings amounted to $1.38 per share, beating analyst estimates by six cents.

RBC's core personal and commercial banking segment accounted for more than half of overall profit, rising by 11 per cent to a record $1.12 billion.

"RBC continued its strong momentum, with earnings of over $2 billion in the first quarter, reflecting solid growth across most businesses and effective cost discipline," RBC president and CEO Gord Nixon said in a statement, ahead of the bank's annual meeting.

RBC joined Bank of Montreal and TD Bank in announcing increases to its quarterly dividend. Royal's will rise five per cent to 63 cents per share, the fourth increase at RBC in the past four years.

Gord Nixon, Royal Bank's chief executive officer, received a pay increase to $12.6 million last year after taking a pay cut to $10.1 million in 2011."

Royal Bank reports $2.07B profit for 1st quarter - Business - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

I also know of another financial institution that has been doing the same thing. Interestingly enough, the workers brought in from abroad to replace the laid of workers, (who also had to train the new contract workers) couldn't get visas to do this in the US, but had no trouble in Canada.

I'm curious as to why this is, and what Jason Kenny's statement really means.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I also know of another financial institution that has been doing the same thing. Interestingly enough, the workers brought in from abroad to replace the laid of workers, (who also had to train the new contract workers) couldn't get visas to do this in the US, but had no trouble in Canada.
> 
> I'm curious as to why this is, and what Jason Kenny's statement really means.


Hopefully something can be done before the Canadian workers are laid off. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Hopefully something can be done before the Canadian workers are laid off. We shall see.


This pretty clearly violates the existing law. I suspect bad press will finish off the deal before it is legally challenged, although I would prefer a legal challenge to set a precedent.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> This pretty clearly violates the existing law. I suspect bad press will finish off the deal before it is legally challenged, although I would prefer a legal challenge to set a precedent.


I agree, Macfury. Hopefully, it will be done in time to save the jobs of these Canadians. We shall see.

Neat new avatar. :clap: :clap:


----------



## groovetube

unfortunately no, loads of jobs are already long gone. This has been happening now for a couple years.

I was somewhat surprised to see the it on RBC, as it's happening in other places as well and has been for a while.

This is why I'm curious about Kenny's statement, and where and how these visas are being granted.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> unfortunately no, loads of jobs are already long gone. This has been happening now for a couple years.
> 
> I was somewhat surprised to see the it on RBC, as it's happening in other places as well and has been for a while.
> 
> This is why I'm curious about Kenny's statement, and where and how these visas are being granted.


Looks like Kenney may give Toews a hard run to see who can set the bar lower.


----------



## Dr.G.

RBC chief denies use of foreign worker replacements - Canada - CBC News

Well, this clarifies the matter, so the government can now rest easy. RBC will be a profitiable company once again.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> That is the definition of a bail-in.


Completely wrong. It is for the the bank to bail in with the special assets that they must set aside... Do you even read other peoples post and links to information that does not jive with your own misinformed and malformed opinions?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Completely wrong. It is for the the bank to bail in with the special assets that they must set aside... Do you even read other peoples post and links to information that does not jive with your own misinformed and malformed opinions?


Since all banks are leveraged out, during a meltdown those special assets won't even make a blip, if loans from the Banksters are not placed at the the bottom of the priority list.


----------



## screature

Once again...


No, Canada is not the next Cyprus




> The notion that Canada’s government has quietly orchestrated a Cyprus-style response to an impending bank failure, and that the big banks are coming for your savings, is a thing of beauty, as far as conspiracy theories go.
> 
> It’s in a regulatory area that’s difficult to understand, and so difficult for most laypeople to immediately disprove without doing a little research first. And it has elements that appeal to both extremes of the political spectrum.
> 
> So if you favour the left, you can go on over to the Centre for Research on Globalization and read Michel Chossudovsky on how a small section in the recent Canadian budget is all part of a global scheme by the banking sector to consolidate its political power. “Financial jargon serves to obfuscate the real intent which essentially consists in stealing people’s savings.”
> 
> Or if you favour the right, you can check out Judi McLeod’s article “Is Canada the next Cyprus?” at Canada Free Press. In that analysis, it’s all Barack Obama’s fault.
> 
> The headlines in the mainstream media are not much less hysterical.
> 
> “Ottawa crafts rules for Cyprus-style ‘bail-in,’ ” proclaimed a recent headline in the Toronto Star.
> 
> Brian Lilley of the Sun writes on his blog that “Canada has a new regime for possible bank failure and it looks exactly like Cyprus.”
> 
> And over at CBC.ca, you can read Neil Macdonald: “Ottawa is contemplating the possibility of a Canadian bank failure — and the same sort of pitiless prescription that was just imposed in Cyprus.”
> 
> Canada’s really not contemplating anything of the sort.
> 
> Here’s what has everybody so worried: On page 145 of the recent federal budget, “The Government proposes to implement a ‘bail-in’ regime for systemically important banks. This regime will be designed to ensure that, in the unlikely event that a systematically important bank depletes its capital, the bank can be recapitalized and returned to viability through the very rapid conversion of certain bank liabilities into regulatory capital. This will reduce risks for taxpayers.”
> 
> Granted, “certain bank liabilities” is neither clear nor precise. And this government does seem to enjoy slipping big news into the most tedious sections of the budget. But there is no reason to think that Canada is even close to becoming “the next Cyprus.”
> 
> It is prudent for Canada to have a plan for its big banks in the unlikely event of near-collapse. So what is that plan? The government proposes that banks set aside rainy-day assets, which they would then use to shore themselves up if the worst happened.
> 
> Unfortunately, Canada uses the inelegant term “bail-in” to describe this, which brings to mind the proposal for Cyprus to impose a 9.9-per-cent levy on uninsured bank deposits, and a 6.75-per-cent levy on insured deposits. Cyprus wisely chose not to go that route, so insured deposits will be protected, but many people are still losing money.
> 
> No one is proposing that Canada impose a levy on bank deposits.
> 
> It shouldn’t need saying, but apparently it does: Canada is not Cyprus. The Cypriot banking sector is bloated and unstable in a way that Canada’s is not. And Canada, last I checked, is not part of the eurozone.
> 
> And in fact, the stated motivation behind the Canadian plan is to prevent the banks having to turn to taxpayers or depositors. The idea, as the finance department clarified this week, is that the banks would set aside something with which to rescue themselves.
> 
> Here’s how Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney described the general idea in a 2010 speech: “An example of a promising market-based mechanism is to embed contingent capital and bail-in features into unsecured market debt and preferred shares issued by financial institutions. Contingent capital is a security that converts to capital when a financial institution is in serious trouble, thereby replenishing capital without the use of taxpayer funds. Contingent conversions could be embedded in all future new issues of senior unsecured debt and subordinated securities to create a broader bail-in approach. Its presence would also discipline management, since common shareholders would be incented to act prudently to avoid having their stakes diluted by conversion.”
> 
> That’s not “exactly like Cyprus.” It’s almost nothing like the response in Cyprus, which reacted to the imprudence of its banking sector by musing about massive taxes on all bank accounts, locking down banks and restricting transactions.
> 
> “The ‘bail-in’ scenario described in the Budget has nothing to do with consumer deposits and they are not part of the ‘bail-in’ regime,” says Kathleen Perchaluk, the finance minister’s press secretary, in an emailed statement. “Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangement, a failing financial institution has to tap into its own special reserves or assets (which it has been forced to put aside) to keep its operations going.”
> 
> Nothing to do with consumer deposits. Yes, only deposits up to $100,000 are insured by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. That isn’t new and it isn’t changing. But there isn’t some new scheme to steal your savings account.
> 
> Canada’s evolving plan might not be perfect. As the confusion this week shows, it would be wise for the government to explain precisely what it intends, what is likely and what is possible. If there is a lesson Canada can learn from Cyprus, it’s that contingency plans should exist and they should be transparent and predictable.
> 
> In the meantime, let’s all calm down.


Now lets see what you've got... other than conspiracy theory and speculation....


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Once again...
> 
> 
> No, Canada is not the next Cyprus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now lets see what you've got... other than conspiracy theory and speculation....





> Granted, “certain bank liabilities” is neither clear nor precise.


And some sort of promise that 'we aren't Cyprus'. 

The truth is, Harper and co. has a solid track record of doing deals/policy that has a lot of let's say 'quiet parts' about the whole thing. We're starting to get used to Ottawa dealing and negotiating things behind closed doors with few details if any, so, when something like this happens, don't be surprised that many are alarmed and publish opinions!

Your post and quote does very little to prove anything either way really.


----------



## eMacMan

To be clear I am not referring to basic secured deposits. What I am asking for and so far not seeing is; some clear indicator that bank customers who have deposited more than $100,000 or because of very low interest returns have been pushed into other bank sponsored unsecured "investments", will be given priority over the Bankster's claims on whatever remains of a banks assets remain after secured deposits are repaid.

That assurance would make Canadian bank bail-ins different from the precedent established in Cyprus. Without that assurance the only difference is in how deeply Canadian banks are leveraged and how well the Canadian economy can maintain itself should the world economy take another nose-dive. 

Admittedly it is highly unlikely should that sort of meltdown occur that any assets would remain, However should some remain, I am saying the Rothchilds, Morgans.... should be dead last in the claims line.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> And some sort of promise that 'we aren't Cyprus'.
> 
> The truth is, Harper and co. has a solid track record of doing deals/policy that has a lot of let's say 'quiet parts' about the whole thing. We're starting to get used to Ottawa dealing and negotiating things behind closed doors with few details if any, so, when something like this happens, don't be surprised that many are alarmed and publish opinions!
> 
> Your post and quote does very little to prove anything either way really.





eMacMan said:


> To be clear I am not referring to basic secured deposits. What I am asking for and so far not seeing is; some clear indicator that bank customers who have deposited more than $100,000 or because of very low interest returns have been pushed into other bank sponsored unsecured "investments", will be given priority over the Bankster's claims on whatever remains of a banks assets remain after secured deposits are repaid.
> 
> That assurance would make Canadian bank bail-ins different from the precedent established in Cyprus. Without that assurance the only difference is in how deeply Canadian banks are leveraged and how well the Canadian economy can maintain itself should the world economy take another nose-dive.
> 
> Admittedly it is highly unlikely should that sort of meltdown occur that any assets would remain, However should some remain, I am saying the Rothchilds, Morgans.... should be dead last in the claims line.


Uhh yeah it's pretty clear.



> “The ‘bail-in’ scenario described in the Budget has nothing to do with consumer deposits and they are not part of the ‘bail-in’ regime,” says Kathleen Perchaluk, the finance minister’s press secretary, in an emailed statement. “*Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangement, a failing financial institution has to tap into its own special reserves or assets (which it has been forced to put aside) to keep its operations going.”
> 
> Nothing to do with consumer deposits. Yes, only deposits up to $100,000 are insured by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. That isn’t new and it isn’t changing. But there isn’t some new scheme to steal your savings account.*


----------



## groovetube

In your opinion, it seems pretty clear.

I however, (and great number of others), aren't so sure it is. I can appreciate that you are satisfied with the information, and can trust this. I don't. And it wouldn't be any different if it were another party in power.

As I said, given Harper's clear track record of keeping details of deals and policies under wraps, I think it's not a surprise people are concerned, and want specifics far more than what you're providing.

We already know insured savings are supposed to be protected. They were in Cyprus in the end if I understand it correctly.


----------



## Macfury

I'm going to start investing in tinfoil, Screature. I see a big market for a new line of hats.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I'm going to start investing in tinfoil, Screature. I see a big market for a new line of hats.


Oh it isn't a new line MF people have been wearing them for years and years right in line with rising aluminium prices...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Oh it isn't a new line MF people have been wearing them for years and years right in line with rising aluminium prices...


That's fine, you all are free to trust the government without questioning things, which is perhaps somewhat surprising to me that conservatives or libertarians would be so trusting so quickly.

Not everyone will be so trusting of a government to put it's citizen's interests before a banks however. I for one applaud the media for raising this issue to hold the government's feet to the fire, to ensure that it becomes clear. You're own quote said, it wasn't clear, it just said don't worry we're not Cyrus or in the Eurozone. However, watching how this government's insane spending and bloated government is slowing dragging things down, I'm more than a little concerned. ANyone should be.

I don't think that has anything to do with wearing tin foil hats. But to each their own!


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Oh it isn't a new line MF people have been wearing them for years and years right in line with rising aluminium prices...


What shocks me a little is the number of people who are looking at a phrase of two or three words and saying "I am not sure what this means, therefore I am sure it means this..."


----------



## groovetube

Conservative trade record long on promises but short on results | Full Comment | National Post



> The Harper government may yet be saved at the bell by a resurgent U.S. economy. Most forecasts see exports picking up next year, as American demand for Canadian autos, lumber and machinery gathers pace. More by luck than judgment, Mr. Flaherty would then be able to hit his budget target in early 2015.


Wouldn't it be ironic that our government who was supposed to be such good stewards of our economy, be saved by the bell by a resurgent US economy with a president, who apparently brought "chaos".

LOL.


----------



## eMacMan

Despite the very clever deflections the question is not about insured depositors. 

Bail-ins were written into most national budgets this year. It is logical to think that this was at the insistence of the International Banksters and for the benefit of said Banksters.

What are those special assets? Are they uninsured deposits? Perhaps depositors money invested in bank bonds, money market accounts or mutual funds? 

Do the bail-in provisions give priority to the Banksters ahead of the banks uninsured customers?


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Despite the very clever deflections the question is not about insured depositors.
> 
> Bail-ins were written into most national budgets this year. It is logical to think that this was at the insistence of the International Banksters and for the benefit of said Banksters.
> 
> What are those special assets? Are they uninsured deposits? Perhaps depositors money invested in bank bonds, money market accounts or mutual funds?
> 
> Do the bail-in provisions give priority to the Banksters ahead of the banks uninsured customers?


If you're the sort that doesn't completely put your trust in this government, and dares question their policies, you obviously are wearing a tinfoil hat.

Apparently


----------



## Dr.G.

Canada lags on childhood well-being, UNICEF says - Canada - CBC News

"Canada's worst showing in a category overall was in health and safety, which includes rankings on infant mortality, vaccination rates and child mortality rates. Canada placed 27th out of 29 countries — only Latvia and Romania ranked lower."

Truly sad, and yet it is something we all can do something about to help turn these figures around so that we can make children a priority.


----------



## groovetube

Things like children, etc are a waste of money, 'gravy trains' as it were. Liberal 'pet projects'.

It seems we're just starting to see the results of a conservative government, once again. We're going from all the loud rhetoric of how much better they are than others, to cold hard facts.

Onces it seems their supporters don't want to touch. It's far better to launch accusations of tin foil hats then address these directly.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Things like children, etc are a waste of money, 'gravy trains' as it were. Liberal 'pet projects'.
> 
> It seems we're just starting to see the results of a conservative government, once again. We're going from all the loud rhetoric of how much better they are than others, to cold hard facts.
> 
> Onces it seems their supporters don't want to touch. It's far better to launch accusations of tin foil hats then address these directly.


"Canada shall, under a Progressive Conservative government, have an effective national system of child care."
— Brian Mulroney,then - Leader of the Progressive Conservatives,1984 

Was he lying when he pledged $3 billion for child care? Granted, it never got funded, but his heart was in the "right" place ................

Of course, Paul Martin did say ..........

"That is why investing in people means early childhood development. For the care and nurturing our children receive in their earliest years is critical in ensuring that they arrive at school ready to learn...."
— Paul Martin , speech to the Toronto Board of Trade, September 14,2000


"Let there be no doubt: assisting families is not only the smart thing to do, it is the right thing to do."
— Paul Martin,Budget Speech,2000


----------



## Macfury

PAarents should also be more careful about having children they cannot afford to raise properly. The problem starts at production not maintenance.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "Canada shall, under a Progressive Conservative government, have an effective national system of child care."
> — Brian Mulroney,then - Leader of the Progressive Conservatives,1984
> 
> Was he lying when he pledged $3 billion for child care? Granted, it never got funded, but his heart was in the "right" place ................
> 
> Of course, Paul Martin did say ..........
> 
> "That is why investing in people means early childhood development. For the care and nurturing our children receive in their earliest years is critical in ensuring that they arrive at school ready to learn...."
> — Paul Martin , speech to the Toronto Board of Trade, September 14,2000
> 
> 
> "Let there be no doubt: assisting families is not only the smart thing to do, it is the right thing to do."
> — Paul Martin,Budget Speech,2000


Not something everyone will get. But there is hope.


----------



## groovetube

Canadian Forces face danger pay cuts in Afghanistan - Canada - CBC News

Hey listen we've only spent nearly 600 million in taxpayer money on action plan ads, so we need to spend more because we're slipping in the polls.

Everyone needs to make sacrifices, and they need to be really careful about the fights they pick in Afghanistan.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Not something everyone will get. But there is hope.


All too true, gt. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Despite the very clever deflections the question is not about insured depositors.
> 
> *Bail-ins were written into most national budgets this year. It is logical to think that this was at the insistence of the International Banksters and for the benefit of said Banksters.*
> 
> What are those special assets? Are they uninsured deposits? Perhaps depositors money invested in bank bonds, money market accounts or mutual funds?
> 
> Do the bail-in provisions give priority to the Banksters ahead of the banks uninsured customers?


Sigh... No that is your conspiracy theory talking again... It seems you didn't read the quote I posted earlier by Mark Carney in 2010:



> *“There is a firm conviction among policy-makers that losses incurred in future crises must be borne by the institutions themselves. This means management, shareholders and creditors, rather than taxpayers.* Better market infrastructure alone will not be sufficient to re-instill market discipline. Ultimately, a series of measures, including living wills and better cross-border resolution regimes, will be required to expose fully firms to the ultimate sanction of the market.
> 
> *All jurisdictions need the tools to intervene safely and quickly to ensure the continued performance of a firm's essential functions and to sell, transfer or restructure part or all of a firm while apportioning losses. Statutory bail-in authority could fill a crucial gap in the resolution toolkit and should catalyze private alternatives to the restructuring process.*
> 
> *An example of a promising market-based mechanism is to embed contingent capital and bail-in features into unsecured market debt and preferred shares issued by financial institutions. Contingent capital is a security that converts to capital when a financial institution is in serious trouble, thereby replenishing capital without the use of taxpayer funds. Contingent conversions could be embedded in all future new issues of senior unsecured debt and subordinated securities to create a broader bail-in approach. Its presence would also discipline management, since common shareholders would be incented to act prudently to avoid having their stakes diluted by conversion. It also sends the message that banks must always act prudently to remain solvent and that they cannot reply on taxpayer bailouts in times of difficulty.”*


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Sigh... No that is your conspiracy theory talking again... It seems you didn't read the quote I posted earlier by Mark Carney in 2010:


Well that is quite clear. The banks bond and stock holders and a variety of uninsured deposits are the source of those special funds. IOW the same set-up as in in Cyprus. 

By the way we need to remember that Mark Carney represents Canada's equivalent to the US Federal Reserve. The Federal reserve is not a branch of the US government, it is in fact a front for the International Banksters. Canada's set-up is extremely similar.

IOW Mark Carney's job was to protect the Banksters who loan those big bucks to Canada's banks. I believe the bail-in provisions clearly reflect his efforts on their behalf. 

While Canada's big banks are leveraged out at a ratio of 9:1 versus the 100:1 in Cyprus and Canada does have a much stronger economy those two items provide uninsured depositors only assurance they will still have that money a year from now.

South Park Bailout Episode - "And...It's*Gone!" - Home - The Daily Bail


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Well that is quite clear. The banks bond and stock holders and a variety of uninsured deposits are the source of those special funds. IOW the same set-up as in in Cyprus.
> 
> *By the way we need to remember that Mark Carney represents Canada's equivalent to the US Federal Reserve. The Federal reserve is not a branch of the US government, it is in fact a front for the International Banksters. Canada's set-up is extremely similar.*
> 
> IOW Mark Carney's job was to protect the Banksters who loan those big bucks to Canada's banks. *I believe the bail-in provisions clearly reflect his efforts on their behalf. *
> 
> While Canada's big banks are leveraged out at a ratio of 9:1 versus the 100:1 in Cyprus and Canada does have a much stronger economy those two items provide uninsured depositors only assurance they will still have that money a year from now.
> 
> South Park Bailout Episode - "And...It's*Gone!" - Home - The Daily Bail


The Bank of Canada is very different from the US Federal Reserve as are our banking systems in general.

To the contrary his efforts show the commitment to making the banks accountable in the time of a crisis that they would have brought on by themselves.

Clearly there is no point in discussing this with you further because you present no evidence, just your conspiracy theories for which so far you have presented zero facts or evidence to support. So go on your merry "the Banksters" are out to get us all" way... bye, bye now... of you go...


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> The Bank of Canada is very different from the US Federal Reserve as are our banking systems in general.
> 
> To the contrary his efforts show the commitment to making the banks accountable in the time of a crisis that they would have brought on by themselves.
> 
> Clearly there is no point in discussing this with you further because you present no evidence, just your conspiracy theories for which so far you have presented zero facts or evidence to support. So go on your merry "the Banksters" are out to get us all" way... bye, bye now... of you go...


What conspiracy theory? You claimed that Canada's bail-in set-up was different than the one in Cyprus, but when you got around to a clear description it was in fact almost identical.

I have happily conceded that the basic structure for Canadian banks is much stronger than those for Cyprus as is our underlying economy. Hopefully if the European problems cause a global meltdown this will be enough. 

You are right in that the Bank of Canada is technically owned by the minister finance. I should have looked that up instead of concluding that Canada's central bank was the same as most other central banks. Still the Canadian banks being leveraged at 9:1 must have gotten at least a sizeable chunk of their leveraged capital from the Banksters and clearly the Con government puts the interest of the Banksters ahead of any unsecured depositors. I can't visualize anyone being so naive as to believe any political party would have the courage to stand up to the Banksters.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> What conspiracy theory? *You claimed that Canada's bail-in set-up was different than the one in Cyprus, but when you got around to a clear description it was in fact almost identical.
> *
> I have happily conceded that the basic structure for Canadian banks is much stronger than those for Cyprus as is our underlying economy. Hopefully if the European problems cause a global meltdown this will be enough.
> 
> You are right in that the Bank of Canada is technically owned by the minister finance. I should have looked that up instead of concluding that Canada's central bank was the same as most other central banks. Still the Canadian banks being leveraged at 9:1 must have gotten at least a sizeable chunk of their leveraged capital from the Banksters *and clearly the Con government puts the interest of the Banksters ahead of any unsecured depositors. *I can't visualize anyone being so naive as to believe any political party would have the courage to stand up to the Banksters.


No in fact it is not, just because you keep saying so does not make it so... Trying to have a rational discussion with you is sometimes like beating ones head against a really thick brick wall.

Done with you one this it is a waste of time.


----------



## groovetube

Out of interest, what specifically, makes ours different than Cyprus.

Other than the fact that our banks are stronger, etc.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Out of interest, what specifically, makes ours different than Cyprus.
> 
> Other than the fact that our banks are stronger, etc.


He keeps saying it's different, but the only specifics he's provided show it's the same. 

Seems we are just supposed to take him at his word and he wonders why I don't trust this (or any other) government.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Out of interest, what specifically, makes ours different than Cyprus.
> 
> Other than the fact that our banks are stronger, etc.





eMacMan said:


> He keeps saying it's different, *but the only specifics he's provided show it's the same.
> *
> Seems we are just supposed to take him at his word and he wonders why I don't trust this (or any other) government.


I have posted the answer a number of times.

#7681

Nonsense. 

You both distrust the government and that is your prerogative but it doesn't mean that you are correct in doing so... Look all we have to go by is the information that is out there and the information clearly indicates the differences... You don't buy it, fine but let's just agree to disagree and get off of this tiresome merry-go-round.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I have posted the answer a number of times.
> 
> #7681
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> You both distrust the government and that is your prerogative but it doesn't mean that you are correct in doing so... Look all we have to go by is the information that is out there and the information clearly indicates the differences... You don't buy it, fine but let's just agree to disagree and get off of this tiresome merry-go-round.


wait a second. That article did little to explain things.

As far as I understand it, Cyprus didn't end up levying the insured 100k and less deposits as originally planned with a lower percentage than 100k and above..

That is what is being said here, insured deposits won't be touched. So again, specifically, what is the difference?


----------



## screature

Sigh...

Once again...



> “The ‘bail-in’ scenario described in the Budget has nothing to do with consumer deposits and they are not part of the ‘bail-in’ regime,” says Kathleen Perchaluk, the finance minister’s press secretary, in an emailed statement. “Under a ‘bail-in’ arrangement, a failing financial institution has to tap into its own special reserves or assets (which it has been forced to put aside) to keep its operations going.”
> 
> Nothing to do with consumer deposits. Yes, only deposits up to $100,000 are insured by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. That isn’t new and it isn’t changing. But there isn’t some new scheme to steal your savings account.


I will not reply to any more posts made on the matter.


----------



## Macfury

I wish that elementary schools had stressed civics and the nature of our political and banking system more strongly. It would have eliminated the need for much of this surprising exchange.


----------



## eMacMan

OK we have finally established that neither Cyprus nor Canada goes after insured deposits. Something that seems to have eluded you, understandable as initially the IMF wanted to partially loot secured deposits. 

Cyprus is going after non-insured deposits, bank stocks, bonds; money banks have "invested" for depositors in things like money market accounts, bond funds, other mutual funds.

In the event of a meltdown Canada will go after special reserve funds. When asked for clarification you told us those funds were: Non-insured deposits, bank stocks, bonds; money banks have "invested" for depositors in things like money market accounts, bond funds, other mutual funds.

Now pardon me for seeming really thick but despite your saying it's different, I cannot see the difference.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Once again...
> 
> 
> 
> I will not reply to any more posts made on the matter.


That quote does nothing to point out what the difference it. It evades the questions nicely. Nothing more than a 'talking point'. I've already said this.

I have asked what I thought is a genuine question. Now if anyone can answer it without mockery, that'd be great. Because I just want to know.


----------



## Macfury

Glad we've established that the banking systems of Cyprus and Canada are identical and the banks are planning to steal all uninsured deposits.

Let's move onto the Bildebergs and the Skull and Bones next.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Glad we've established that the banking systems of Cyprus and Canada are identical and the banks are planning to steal all uninsured deposits.
> 
> Let's move onto the Bildebergs and the Skull and Bones next.


Another neat diversion but the question is: What are these claimed differences in the bail-in provisions?


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> I have posted the answer a number of times.
> 
> #7681


you keep on reposting the article, but that's not really addressing their concerns.

even quotes from the artcle highlight the probems :



> Granted, “certain bank liabilities” is neither clear nor precise. And this government does seem to enjoy slipping big news into the most tedious sections of the budget.





> Canada’s evolving plan might not be perfect. As the confusion this week shows, it would be wise for the government to explain precisely what it intends, what is likely and what is possible. If there is a lesson Canada can learn from Cyprus, it’s that contingency plans should exist and they should be transparent and predictable.


so while i agree that saying Canada is the next Cyprus is hyperbole, i would also argue that their is no clear definition on what could potentially happen and how people could plan their finances to safeguard a worst case scenario.

asking that this be clarified is an entirely reasonable position.


----------



## i-rui

Deliberately lax visa rules encouraged RBC outsourcing: Walkom | Toronto Star

great article that touches on the RBC fiasco, but looks at the bigger picture.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> you keep on reposting the article, but that's not really addressing their concerns.
> 
> even quotes from the artcle highlight the probems :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so while i agree that saying Canada is the next Cyprus is hyperbole, i would also argue that their is no clear definition on what could potentially happen and how people could plan their finances to safeguard a worse case scenario.
> 
> asking that this be clarified is an entirely reasonable position.


I certainly wouldn't suggest that Canada is anywhere near in Cyprus's position. 

But if bad economic policies were to continue and we eventually reach a point of seeing one if these banks fail, it's good not to be surprised and be truly informed rather than simply swallowing talking points.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I certainly wouldn't suggest that Canada is anywhere near in Cyprus's position.
> 
> But if bad economic policies were to continue and we eventually reach a point of seeing one if these banks fail, it's good not to be surprised and be truly informed rather than simply swallowing talking points.


No nourishment at all in those talking points. Guess the theory is; We'll get pie in the sky if we die! 

I feel like I am sitting at the table, the bets are all in. I've got the red eights and a pair of kings. The guy across the table is saying he's got that beat but won't lay down his cards. I keep asking myself; "Is he holding the black eights and black aces and maybe a deuce of spades? Is that the reason he won't show?" or is he only holding the talking points?


----------



## Dr.G.

Game on: Kerry wins Canadian bet – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

Next Baird will be betting on the Jays when they play Boston. We shall see.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Game on: Kerry wins Canadian bet – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> Next Baird will be betting on the Jays when they play Boston. We shall see.


So should Baird have not been seen to be supporting our National Woman's Hockey Team?

Not quite sure where you are going with this... 

It is common place for such friendly bets to be made among all levels of government officials.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> So should Baird have not been seen to be supporting our National Woman's Hockey Team?
> 
> Not quite sure where you are going with this...
> 
> It is common place for such friendly bets to be made among all levels of government officials.


He should have fully supported our team, but not put a bet on them for a case of beer. If he believed in the team, he should have said that the bet would have been PEI for Hyannis Port, Massachusetts .................... or Newfoundland and Labrador for Massachusetts.  A case of beer for the winner makes us look cheap. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> He should have fully supported our team, but not put a bet on them for a case of beer. If he believed in the team, he should have said that the bet would have been PEI for Hyannis Port, Massachusetts .................... or Newfoundland and Labrador for Massachusetts.  A case of beer for the winner makes us look cheap.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Oddly enough Dr. G., a case of beer is probably the most common bet made by two guys anywhere, anytime and about anything in this country. To me, it represents Canadian to the core.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Oddly enough Dr. G., a case of beer is probably the most common bet made by two guys anywhere, anytime and about anything in this country. To me, it represents Canadian to the core.


Yes, but have you ever tasted beer from Teresa Heinz's brewery???? She is of the Heinz tomato ketchup fame, and their beer is made from what is left over from the production of ketchup. That is what Canada was going to get. So very Canadian on our part .................... a bit cheap on the part of the US. Sam Adams Red, made with left over tomato pieces, is not a hot seller in the US. XX)


----------



## SINC

Well, I love Heinz ketchup, so what's not to like about ketchup beer?


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Well, I love Heinz ketchup, so what's not to like about ketchup beer?


Have you ever tried it????????? XX) XX) XX)


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Have you ever tried it????????? XX) XX) XX)


There are 57 varieties!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> There are 57 varieties!


Yes ............... all terrible. XX)XX)XX)

The US received a quality Molson product ........... fitting of our fine country. Still, what would Canada be like without PEI ............................. or Newfoundland and Labrador???????????


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, but have you ever tasted beer from Teresa Heinz's brewery???? She is of the Heinz tomato ketchup fame, and their beer is made from what is left over from the production of ketchup. That is what Canada was going to get. So very Canadian on our part .................... a bit cheap on the part of the US. Sam Adams Red, made with left over tomato pieces, is not a hot seller in the US. XX)





SINC said:


> Well, I love Heinz ketchup, so what's not to like about ketchup beer?





Dr.G. said:


> Have you ever tried it????????? XX) XX) XX)


Beer from ketchup or vodka from potatoes.

I think, we may all agree, the best use of both...[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkZ62XvJHVQ]Stompin' Tom Connors - The Ketchup Song (Live 2005) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Beer from ketchup or vodka from potatoes.
> 
> I think, we may all agree, the best use of both...Stompin' Tom Connors - The Ketchup Song (Live 2005) - YouTube


In his early days, Stompin' Tom used to crush the tomatoes to help make the tomato wine that Heinz tried to make in Ontario. Luckily, ice wine caught on and tomato wine never did. However, when it was fermenting, and someone added some brewer's yeast and some moldy hops and rotten corn, and some water from the Pickering and Darlington Nuclear Power Stations in Ontario, it was discovered that you could make beer from these ingredients. So the result was Heinz Tomato Beer ............

Sadly, they bought out the Piel's Beer Brewery and sent Bert and Harry Piel packing. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26HtmV0DmRU]Bert and Harry Piel at the Hockey Game - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> He should have fully supported our team, but not put a bet on them for a case of beer. If he believed in the team, he should have said that the bet would have been PEI for Hyannis Port, Massachusetts .................... or Newfoundland and Labrador for Massachusetts.  *A case of beer for the winner makes us look cheap.
> *
> Paix, mon ami.


Or maybe he should have just bet our whole country, lock stock and barrel against theirs as the bet... would that make us look more "manly" and not so cheap? beejacon


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Or maybe he should have just bet our whole country, lock stock and barrel against theirs as the bet... would that make us look more "manly" and not so cheap? beejacon


Never!!! Death before the dishonor of giving up our frozen land!!!! We shall not give in to "Fifty-four Forty or Fight!" and the tryany of "Manifest Destiny".


----------



## Kosh

i-rui said:


> Deliberately lax visa rules encouraged RBC outsourcing: Walkom | Toronto Star
> 
> great article that touches on the RBC fiasco, but looks at the bigger picture.


I'm really glad to see the high profile of this in the media. Shame on the banks for sending high paying jobs out of the country when we have so many unemployed, and our Government is helping is helping them. Again a prime example that lowering taxes for Big Business isn't helping. Taxes on Big Business should be increased (or put back to the levels they were at before the Conservatives came into power). Hopefully the media will also publish information on any other big banks doing this.

In my books, the only business that deserves lower taxes are small businesses and the self-employed.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Or maybe he should have just bet our whole country, lock stock and barrel against theirs as the bet... would that make us look more "manly" and not so cheap? beejacon


Maybe too late?

The FATCA talking points seem to indicate he is more than willing to give out personal banking information away.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Onward, to the holy land ....................


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


I know I feel better already! The only thing left to utter...[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Fkuq5Lf0Q]Leonard Cohen - Hallelujah (original studio version)+Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

It's rather sad to see North Americans so eager to elect relatives of relatives. It seems like the culture has a deep-seated need for a monarchy.


----------



## SINC

One thing is nearly sure and that is with Trudeau at the helm, the Liberals have sealed their fate as to any chance at forming a government, and likely prolonged there banishment to the netherlands of the political arena in this country.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It's rather sad to see North Americans so eager to elect relatives of relatives. It seems like the culture has a deep-seated need for a monarchy.


Somewhat true ............ with no Kennedy on the horizon all we have to focus upon is the Bush family ............... and Ron Paul and his son, Rand. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> One thing is nearly sure and that is with Trudeau at the helm, the Liberals have sealed their fate as to any chance at forming a government, and likely prolonged there banishment to the netherlands of the political arena in this country.


Quite a lot of people disagree with you.

If election were held today, say hello to Prime Minister Trudeau: poll - The Globe and Mail

Poll: 48 per cent think Justin Trudeau is qualified to be PM | Toronto Star

Trudeau may be a dirty word out in Alberta, but not so here in vote-rich Ontario.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Somewhat true ............ with no Kennedy on the horizon all we have to focus upon is the Bush family ............... and Ron Paul and his son, Rand.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Hillary.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Hillary.


She would be historic, so she gets a pass on being part of a family dynasty.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Hillary.


If she is up to it, health-wise, I'd love to see her run. I think she'd wipe the floor with anything the Republicans could field. But she's getting pretty old; she may not have the energy for a run at the presidency.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> If she is up to it, health-wise, I'd love to see her run. I think she'd wipe the floor with anything the Republicans could field. But she's getting pretty old; she may not have the energy for a run at the presidency.


She is 65 years old!!! That is not too old. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> If she is up to it, health-wise, I'd love to see her run. I think she'd wipe the floor with anything the Republicans could field. But she's getting pretty old; she may not have the energy for a run at the presidency.


In 2016, she'd still be younger than Reagan was when he was elected.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> In 2016, she'd still be younger than Reagan was when he was elected.


True. Paix, mon amie.


----------



## bryanc

There are certainly lots of people older than her who have the energy, and Clinton clearly has the political chops, but the question is, does _she_ still have the energy (and will she in 2016). I hope so, but I'm not certain.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> There are certainly lots of people older than her who have the energy, and Clinton clearly has the political chops, but the question is, does _she_ still have the energy (and will she in 2016). I hope so, but I'm not certain.


We shall see, bryanc. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## iMouse

IMO he needs a voice coach, and quickly.

As shallow as that statement is, what he says could be shrugged-off by some. if he sounds like a child.

He needs more timbre in his voice.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If she is up to it, health-wise, I'd love to see her run. I think she'd wipe the floor with anything the Republicans could field. But she's getting pretty old; she may not have the energy for a run at the presidency.


She would be a hopeless president, but not as bad as Obama, who has set the gold standard for incompetence.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Quite a lot of people disagree with you.
> 
> If election were held today, say hello to Prime Minister Trudeau: poll - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Poll: 48 per cent think Justin Trudeau is qualified to be PM | Toronto Star
> 
> Trudeau may be a dirty word out in Alberta, but not so here in vote-rich Ontario.


I think the ones that hate Trudeau is really wishing for continued banishment.

It really is a wait and see thing here. But the guy does have that X factor quite strongly, and Harper doesn't. I heard the first round of attack ads goes after the fact that Trudeau is inexperienced. A bit of a sad attempt when you consider that Harper himself wasn't exactly experienced when he first took office.

Not to mention Trudeau's strong ability to fund raise.


----------



## groovetube

9th Conservative MP speaks out against being muzzled | CTV News

9 MPs! 9 MPs and cooooounting!

ah ah ahhhhh.


----------



## Sonal

Justin Trudeau interview - The National - CBC Player

Justin Trudeau, interviewed by Peter Mansbridge.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Justin Trudeau interview - The National - CBC Player
> 
> Justin Trudeau, interviewed by Peter Mansbridge.


Saw this yesterday. It was an excellent interview in my opinion. My attitude towards JT improved due to this interview. 

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> My attitude towards JT improved due to this interview.
> 
> Paix, mon amie.


The EhMac community is in shock at such a ground-breaking shift in your allegiances, Dr. G.


----------



## bryanc

Dr.G. said:


> My attitude towards JT improved due to this interview.


Mine too. I'll have to seriously consider the Liberal candidate in the next election.

While I'm dubious of political dynasties, it does strike me as likely that a child growing up with politically active and powerful parents will be better prepared to engage in that world. Furthermore, it's unusual for the values of a child to be radically different than the values of their parents, so if you agree with the values of the previous generation, a subsequent generation is a safer bet than a complete unknown (and visa versa; GHW Bush was a disastrous president who was utterly contemptuous of the common citizens of the US, and his son should be indicted at the Hague as a war criminal and will go down in history as the worst president of the modern era).

I think PET was among the best prime minsters in Canada's history (and I say that as someone who lived in Alberta for during his mandates - so my judgement of him is coloured by the fact that most of what I heard about him was stridently negative). From this interview, it appears to me that his son Justin has many of the attributes of PET that made him a great leader.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Mine too. I'll have to seriously consider the Liberal candidate in the next election.


I don't think anyone is shocked by your allegiances, bryanc.


----------



## Sonal

I liked the interview too.... which will not shock MacFury. 

Still, I hope Justin Trudeau's words are a reflection of the changes he brings to the Liberal Party.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The EhMac community is in shock at such a ground-breaking shift in your allegiances, Dr. G.


No real shift in my allegiance, Macfury. I can appreciate a new leader, whatever the party. I shall vote for the NDP since I like the person who is our current MP here in St.John's East, Jack Harris. I even voted for Harper when I liked the current MP, Norm Doyle. So, I shall stay with the NDP unless they shift their policies to a degree that I can no longer support, or if the Liberals field a candidate that I like even more than Jack Harris and the Liberals have a platform more in line with my views.

So, the "ground breaking shift" you felt were the aftershocks from the new Mt. Saint Helens eruption. 

Of course, the fundraising email I just received from the Justin Trudeau campaign was quite compelling.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> I liked the interview too.... which will not shock MacFury.
> 
> Still, I hope Justin Trudeau's words are a reflection of the changes he brings to the Liberal Party.


Same here, Sonal. I have seen some of the Conservative attack ads already, and I think that they might backfire this time. We shall see.

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Same here, Sonal. I have seen some of the Conservative attack ads already, and I think that they might backfire this time. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon amie.


As joked on Twitter.... an attack ad showing Justin Trudeau taking his shirt off probably won't work the way the Conservatives think it will.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I don't think anyone is shocked by your allegiances, bryanc.


Anyone who knows me would be; I'm not generally a supporter of the Liberals. Historically, I've voted for the Greens, the NDP, the Rhinos, and once I held my nose and voted Liberal. I may be able to vote Liberal this election and mean it.


----------



## bryanc

I liked JT's point about how Harper has achieved his majority through the politics of negativity and division. Given that the majority of Canadians who voted, voted against the Conservatives, Harper's use of divisiveness is empirically true. The PC playbook runs heavily towards using negativity and fear, and I do think Canadians are sick of this.

While I still see the Greens and the NDP having more and better ideas for Canada's future, one of the strengths of the Liberal party historically has been their shameless appropriation of good ideas from both the left and the right, and I really don't care where good ideas for running the country originate, so much as that they are implemented in a timely and effective manner. The Conservatives have been very timely and effective about implementing bad ideas. My experience with the NDP (provincially in BC) is that they were slow and ineffective at implementing good ideas. I have some hope that the Liberals under JT could be a reasonable compromise.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> I liked JT's point about how Harper has achieved his majority through the politics of negativity and division. Given that the majority of Canadians who voted, voted against the Conservatives, Harper's use of divisiveness is empirically true. The PC playbook runs heavily towards using negativity and fear, and I do think Canadians are sick of this.
> 
> While I still see the Greens and the NDP having more and better ideas for Canada's future, one of the strengths of the Liberal party historically has been their shameless appropriation of good ideas from both the left and the right, and I really don't care where good ideas for running the country originate, so much as that they are implemented in a timely and effective manner. The Conservatives have been very timely and effective about implementing bad ideas. My experience with the NDP (provincially in BC) is that they were slow and ineffective at implementing good ideas. I have some hope that the Liberals under JT could be a reasonable compromise.


I suspect many people will see the same thing as you pointed out. Harper and co have used a similar politic of the Harris regime, and it only works for so long.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Same here, Sonal. I have seen some of the Conservative attack ads already, and I think that they might backfire this time. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon amie.


I thought they were pretty funny! They certainly reflect my feelings after I was forced to sit through a lengthy speech by Justin. I have rarely heard a speaker so vapid. Perhaps Susan Powter on those infommercials comes close.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Anyone who knows me would be; I'm not generally a supporter of the Liberals. Historically, I've voted for the Greens, the NDP, the Rhinos, and once I held my nose and voted Liberal. I may be able to vote Liberal this election and mean it.


Yes. It is no shock.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> My experience with the NDP (provincially in BC) is that they were slow and ineffective at implementing good ideas. .


It takes some time to bring industry and commerce to a grinding halt. Given another term of office, the NDP might have achieved stasis!


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> They certainly reflect my feelings after I was forced to sit through a lengthy speech by Justin.


You are not the intended audience; we all understand you will vote for Dear Leader unless and until someone with shinier jackboots comes along.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> You are not the intended audience; we all understand you will vote for Dear Leader unless and until someone with shinier jackboots comes along.


If'n ya keep votin for the Harper perhaps there's still hope for smaller government, less spending, and smaller deficits... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> As joked on Twitter.... an attack ad showing Justin Trudeau taking his shirt off probably won't work the way the Conservatives think it will.


Again, I agree, Sonal. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I thought they were pretty funny! They certainly reflect my feelings after I was forced to sit through a lengthy speech by Justin. I have rarely heard a speaker so vapid. Perhaps Susan Powter on those infommercials comes close.


Well, at least JT is taking your mind off of Pres. Obama. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The Liberal party is still under evaluation for me.

I like what I see in Trudeau thus far. I have met a circle of his friends from College Brebeuf days in business dealings and they are all fiercely loyal to him. They have all actively worked on his leadership campaign. They've done a very good job.

I hear the vapid criticism a bit, but I think there is a good reason not to rush into developing hardcore policy at this juncture. There's really no point with an election some time away. The Liberals will remain malleable, some might say slippery, on specifics until it matters.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Liberal party is still under evaluation for me.
> 
> I like what I see in Trudeau thus far. I have met a circle of his friends from College Brebeuf days in business dealings and they are all fiercely loyal to him. They have all actively worked on his leadership campaign. They've done a very good job.
> 
> I hear the vapid criticism a bit, but I think there is a good reason not to rush into developing hardcore policy at this juncture. There's really no point with an election some time away. The Liberals will remain malleable, some might say slippery, on specifics until it matters.


It isn't as if the reformers/new conservatives weren't slippery as heck.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> As joked on Twitter.... an attack ad showing Justin Trudeau taking his shirt off probably won't work the way the Conservatives think it will.





groovetube said:


> I suspect many people will see the same thing as you pointed out. Harper and co have used a similar politic of the Harris regime, and it only works for so long.





bryanc said:


> You are not the intended audience; we all understand you will vote for Dear Leader unless and until someone with shinier jackboots comes along.





Dr.G. said:


> Again, I agree, Sonal. We shall see.



As was pointed out in an excellent interview on The Current this morning and in a very astute article yesterday in the Ottawa Citizen the audience for these ads is not the one you seem to think it is...

The Current - Trudeau Attack Ads


Don’t assume Tories’ Trudeau ads will backfire



> ...More importantly, we also need to keep in mind the true purpose of these ads. They are not designed to drive Trudeau down in the polls. With more than two years to go before a federal election, it’s way too early for that. Additionally, it doesn’t make strategic sense to go negative against Trudeau when he’s arguably at the height of his popularity.
> 
> So what are these ads designed to do?
> 
> Well, to be blunt, it’s all about money. The Tories are using these ads as a fundraising ploy, which makes perfect sense.
> 
> After all, with all the pomp and fanfare associated with Trudeau’s ascension to the Liberal leadership, emotions — both pro-and anti-Trudeau — are running high.
> 
> As anybody who has ever done any fundraising knows, the best time to ask for a contribution occurs when donors are emotional. And right now, I suspect the Tory partisan base is eager to see their champion Prime Minister Stephen Harper take on the upstart Trudeau.
> 
> The Tories are simply giving their base a way to express that feeling through a generous financial contribution. The ads give them something tangible to support.
> 
> And just as the media hate these spots, the Tory base will probably love them. In fact, I fully expect the Conservatives will rake in lots of cash.
> 
> So maybe they didn’t miscalculate after all.


----------



## Dr.G.

An interesting point, screature, re the attack ads being used mainly to raise money. I guess it makes sense. My first thought was that it was to frame the perception of JT prior to his having the chance to make his own mark on the political scene as leader of the Liberals. Either way, I hope that the attack ads fail, since I don't like them regardless of the party or person using them. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> You are not the intended audience; we all understand you will vote for Dear Leader unless and until *someone with shinier jackboots comes along.*


No class, a new low.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> An interesting point, screature, re the attack ads being used mainly to raise money. I guess it makes sense. My first thought was that it was to frame the perception of JT prior to his having the chance to make his own mark on the political scene as leader of the Liberals. Either way, I hope that the attack ads fail, since I don't like them regardless of the party or person using them. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


If you listen to the interview on The Current you will see that the "framing" of Trudeau is less to the point as he is already known to the Canadian public, unlike Dion or Ignatieff, so the strategies are different this time around. Certainly they want to "frame" him as a potential PM, but especially this far out from the next election, it is less the point.

Their strategy will evolve as it gets closer to the election and Trudeau will have "framed" himself as a potential PM.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> An interesting point, screature, re the attack ads being used mainly to raise money. I guess it makes sense. My first thought was that it was to frame the perception of JT prior to his having the chance to make his own mark on the political scene as leader of the Liberals. Either way, I hope that the attack ads fail, since I don't like them regardless of the party or person using them. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I'm not the only one proposing this -

attack-ad reform: make the party leader voice the ad. Say what you like, but own it. They’d clean up fast.


----------



## eMacMan

> As was pointed out in an excellent interview on The Current this morning and in a very astute article yesterday in the Ottawa Citizen the audience for these ads is not the one you seem to think it is...
> 
> The Current - Trudeau Attack Ads
> 
> 
> Don’t assume Tories’ Trudeau ads will backfire


I think you are probably right about that. 

Still I am personally fed up to here with the politics of fear. Perhaps I am alone in this. However if I am not, then I suspect if Harpo continues the same; "I'm only 99% as bad as the other guys" approach it may well cost him the next election. Especially true as he seems determined to make Canada a high stakes player in the NATO MIC even at the cost of ratcheting up the national debt.

Also agree about making the party leader own the ads.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'm not the only one proposing this -
> 
> attack-ad reform: make the party leader voice the ad. Say what you like, but own it. They’d clean up fast.


Not going to happen any time soon.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> As was pointed out in an excellent interview on The Current this morning and in a very astute article yesterday in the Ottawa Citizen the audience for these ads is not the one you seem to think it is...
> 
> The Current - Trudeau Attack Ads
> 
> 
> Don’t assume Tories’ Trudeau ads will backfire



from the article :



> Additionally, it doesn’t make strategic sense to go negative against Trudeau when he’s arguably at the height of his popularity.


so those "attack ads" aren't negative?

could've fooled me.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> from the article :
> 
> 
> 
> so those "attack ads" aren't negative?
> 
> could've fooled me.


You seem to have missed the point, no one said they weren't negative.


----------



## Sonal

What screature points out about attack ads being used to fundraiser for the Conservative base makes sense.

Still, I don't like them. I know many people are tired of seeing them. Jack Layton presented a sunny optimism and was enormously popular for doing so. While at this stage the attack ads may help fundraise for the base, I wonder if they will do so at the expense of future votes. (Too early to know, however.)


----------



## i-rui

Bank of Canada cuts growth forecast, holds rates - The Globe and Mail

so once again the economic forecast has been downgraded. it seems more in line to what theIMF was saying for Canada.

so who's supposed to be the sound economic stewards again? the Harper government? Really?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Bank of Canada cuts growth forecast, holds rates - The Globe and Mail
> 
> so once again the economic forecast has been downgraded. it seems more in line to what theIMF was saying for Canada.
> 
> so who's supposed to be the sound economic stewards again? the Harper government? Really?


Who's to say it wouldn't be worse under a different government... it is pretty hard to have a booming economy when the rest of the world is in economic crisis.


----------



## i-rui

Northern Gateway panel releases 199 pipeline conditions - British Columbia - CBC News

from the 'project democracy' commentary on this federal panel's "conditions" :



> $950 million in liability coverage sounds like a lot, right? However, consider this: BP has already paid out $58 billion for cleanup costs for the Deepwater Horizon environmental disaster, and it has just been hit with suits from local and state governments that total $34 billion. If these succeed in court it could bring the total cost of the cleanup to $92 billion. The $950 million in liability coverage that the federal review panel is requiring Northern Gateway Pipelines (a subsidiary of Enbridge) to carry is only 1% of this amount - a seemingly paltry and inadequate amount to cover the costs of any signifiant oil spill.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> You are not the intended audience; we all understand you will vote for Dear Leader unless and until someone with shinier jackboots comes along.


You should be ashamed of yourself, wielding Nazi imagery in the context of a Canadian democracy. This sort of thoughtless hyperbole cheapens the real meaning of the suffering and deaths of millions


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> What screature points out about attack ads being used to fundraiser for the Conservative base makes sense.
> 
> Still, I don't like them. I know many people are tired of seeing them. Jack Layton presented a sunny optimism and was enormously popular for doing so. While at this stage the attack ads may help fundraise for the base, I wonder if they will do so at the expense of future votes. (Too early to know, however.)


I am sorry that Jack Layton died, but it does not make his policies any more palatable. The attack ads on Layton were reasonable.


----------



## bryanc

You going to clean up those crocodile tears when your done? You've made it very clear you don't find Harper conservative enough, and despite your protestations of being a libertarian, your promotion of the authoritarian Right is abundantly clear. If {edit to make less offensive}Engelbert Dollfuss{/edit} ran today, you'd be right behind him.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Northern Gateway panel releases 199 pipeline conditions - British Columbia - CBC News
> 
> from the 'project democracy' commentary on this federal panel's "conditions" :


Yes, they need to establish a larger reserve. If they can't, then the project is not yet economically viable.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> You going to clean up those crocodile tears when your done? You've made it very clear you don't find Harper conservative enough, and despite your protestations of being a libertarian, your promotion of the authoritarian Right is abundantly clear. If Mussolini ran today, you'd be right behind him.


Your post has been reported.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'm not the only one proposing this -
> 
> attack-ad reform: make the party leader voice the ad. Say what you like, but own it. They’d clean up fast.


A valid point, mon ami.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Your post has been reported.


Sorry, my extra-large bag of troll-food is nearly past it's best-before date; if you're full, I'll try to find someone else who wants it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> You should be ashamed of yourself, wielding Nazi imagery in the context of a Canadian democracy. This sort of thoughtless hyperbole cheapens the real meaning of the suffering and deaths of millions


I have to agree with you, Macfury. I dislike the use of "Nazi imagery" in the context of either the US or Canadian governments. As much as I did not/do not like some of the policies of the Bush administration or the Harper administration, use of this imagery does, in my opinion, "cheapen the real meaning of the suffering and deaths of millions."

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I am sorry that Jack Layton died, but it does not make his policies any more palatable. The attack ads on Layton were reasonable.


And yet, some of the attacks on Layton increased his popularity. 
Gap between Tories, NDP narrows to 6 points in 11th-hour polling - The Globe and Mail

(Yes, I know, that was not an ad but a news story broken by the Sun.)

And palatable policies or not, Jack Layton consistently polled as the most trustworthy candidate. I believe a lot of that is due to his demeanour.... I think Justin Trudeau, in also espousing positive politics, may be similarly well-regarded.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I have to agree with you, Macfury. I dislike the use of "Nazi imagery" in the context of either the US or Canadian governments. As much as I did not/do not like some of the policies of the Bush administration or the Harper administration, use of this imagery does, in my opinion, "cheapen the real meaning of the suffering and deaths of millions."
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I am likewise no fan of some leaders. However, they are not even close to being Nazis.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> I liked JT's point about how Harper has achieved his majority through the politics of negativity and division.





bryanc said:


> You are not the intended audience; we all understand you will vote for Dear Leader unless and until someone with shinier jackboots comes along.


Surely, bryanc, you can see the irony of praising JT for his points against the politics of negativity and division, and then immediately going for a jackboots reference?


----------



## bryanc

Since when were "jackboots" a reference to Nazism? Totalitarians throughout history have employed the proverbial jackbooted thugs to enforce their authoritarian will. While our constitution and social structure inhibit Harper's proclivities in this direction, he and his fellow travellers are clearly archetypical authoritarians and I have no reservation about pointing this out. It has nothing to do with Nazis.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> Sorry, my extra-large bag of troll-food is nearly past it's best-before date; if you're full, I'll try to find someone else who wants it.


Having met you, bryanc, I know that your concerns about the current Harper goverment are real. Still, I don't support your use of "Nazi imagery", as Macfury contended, when speaking about the Harper Government of Canada. I don't think that you meant them in the way that is being seen by some in this thread. While I support your right to express your views, I might suggest, as a friend, to tone down the use of terms that don't really support your views. As one who is Jewish, and lost all of the family on my grandmother's side in Dachau, I don't fear the Harper Government of Canada as I would have were I living in southern Germany as were my distant relatives. I don't support many of his policies, but I don't fell as if I have to fear being dragged away in the dead of night, or having a big Star of David and "Jude" painted on my front door by those who support him.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And palatable policies or not, Jack Layton consistently polled as the most trustworthy candidate. I believe a lot of that is due to his demeanour.... I think Justin Trudeau, in also espousing positive politics, may be similarly well-regarded.


I trusted Layton--however, I trusted him to follow through on policies I thought were harmful. Of all the leaders, I expect he would probably be most likely to pay me back a five-spot I had loaned to him. I'm not sure what "trustworthiness" represents in different political contexts.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I am likewise no fan of some leaders. However, they are not even close to being Nazis.


True, as I discussed in my previous posting to this one.


----------



## bryanc

I'm sorry if I've offended you, Marc, or anyone else here; my intent was not to employ reference to Naziism, but rather to totalitarianism. Hence the use of 'jackboots' rather than 'swastikas'.

Furthermore, I was obviously being hyperbolic, and don't mean to imply that Harper is anywhere near as bad as Stalin, Mussolini, or any of the other totalitarian dictators of the past; just that he's further in that direction than any Canadian PM we've had, and would like to keep going in that direction.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Sorry, my extra-large bag of troll-food is nearly past it's best-before date; if you're full, I'll try to find someone else who wants it.


Are you quite alright, bryanc? I suggest you step away from the computer for a few hours. If you delete your comments, I will withdraw my complaint to the moderator.


----------



## bryanc

What would you like me to delete? It seems you're not the only one to have misinterpreted my reference to Harper's jackboots as "Nazi imagery" which is not what I intended, so I'll accept that apparently it's not a good choice of words. I don't see Harper as anything like a Nazi; I do see him as an dictatorial thug.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> Since when were "jackboots" a reference to Nazism? Totalitarians throughout history have employed the proverbial jackbooted thugs to enforce their authoritarian will. While our constitution and social structure inhibit Harper's proclivities in this direction, he and his fellow travellers are clearly archetypical authoritarians and I have no reservation about pointing this out. It has nothing to do with Nazis.


The term "jackboot" has become an allegory to represent the totalitarian regimes that have sought to oppress various groups. While I agree that it does not specify the connection to the Nazi party, it does bring out this group as the symbol of the "archtypical authoritarian". Personally, when I hear the term "jackboot", I think of Nazi strom-troopers. I may be wrong in this connotation, but this is the image that comes to mind.

As I said, I support your right to express yourself, but I feel that you open yourself up to valid criticism by the use of this term. Your arguement is somewhat valid, but now it is getting lost in this flurry of objections to your connections of Harper and the jackboots.

Just a suggestion from someone who considers you a friend. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Are you quite alright, bryanc? I suggest you step away from the computer for a few hours. If you delete your comments, I will withdraw my complaint to the moderator.


Given that the Jewish Radio Goddess, Dr. Laura is more commonly referred to Dr. Jackboot, your contention that jackboot is intended to evoke visions of Nazis is way off base.

Bryanc's claim of referencing totalitarianism does make more sense and the actions of Minister Vic Toews; We're gonna bug everybodies phone and read your eMails to boot bill, does support Bryanc's contention.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

bryanc said:


> I'm sorry if I've offended you, Marc, or anyone else here; my intent was not to employ reference to Naziism, but rather to totalitarianism. Hence the use of 'jackboots' rather than 'swastikas'.
> 
> Furthermore, I was obviously being hyperbolic, and don't mean to imply that Harper is anywhere near as bad as Stalin, Mussolini, or any of the other totalitarian dictators of the past; just that he's further in that direction than any Canadian PM we've had, and would like to keep going in that direction.


Seems reasonable if not hyperbolic as stated.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> I'm sorry if I've offended you, Marc, or anyone else here; my intent was not to employ reference to Naziism, but rather to totalitarianism. Hence the use of 'jackboots' rather than 'swastikas'.
> 
> Furthermore, I was obviously being hyperbolic, and don't mean to imply that Harper is anywhere near as bad as Stalin, Mussolini, or any of the other totalitarian dictators of the past; just that he's further in that direction than any Canadian PM we've had, and would like to keep going in that direction.


I see your point here, and now understand the use of your term "jackboot". As I said, I make the connection to Nazi storm-trooper when I hear the word "jackboot". Thus, I see your point now. However, one have to be very careful when one uses hyperbole as a rhetorical device. It is easily misunderstood if not crafted in an exact manner.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> If you delete your comments, I will withdraw my complaint to the moderator.


I edited the post you seemed to take offence to; my point is that I don't buy your claims of libertarianism when you support such authoritarian leaders.


----------



## bryanc

Dr.G. said:


> However, one have to be very careful when one uses hyperbole as a rhetorical device. It is easily misunderstood if not crafted in an exact manner.


I will certainly accept criticism for poor writing; part of the fun of posting here is that I can be far less constrained than when I'm writing scientifically.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A friend's bicycle import business is in jeopardy because of the Conservative tax hikes. Harper tried to lay the blame on the NDP and Liberals in Question period on Monday when he went on and on about how they wanted to subsidize Chinese imports. My friend's business imports Dutch made "Flying Dutchman" and he's peeved at this Conservative tax hike. Then there's this:

Owner of shop where Jim Flaherty made budget appearance says he was deceived - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I trusted Layton--however, I trusted him to follow through on policies I thought were harmful. Of all the leaders, I expect he would probably be most likely to pay me back a five-spot I had loaned to him. I'm not sure what "trustworthiness" represents in different political contexts.


Polls at the time put Ignatieff as the least trustworthy candidate, and he tanked. Many voters who had previously chosen Liberal, went NDP... I believe a lot of that was less due to policy and more due to perception of the personal characteristics of the party leaders, trustworthiness being one aspect.


----------



## Dr.G.

bryanc said:


> I will certainly accept criticism for poor writing; part of the fun of posting here is that I can be far less constrained than when I'm writing scientifically.


I hear you, bryanc. Academic writing is so very constrained. Still, whenever/wherever/whatever we write needs to be carefully crafted so as not to lose the intended meaning of our written expressions. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Since when were "jackboots" a reference to Nazism? Totalitarians throughout history have employed the proverbial jackbooted thugs to enforce their authoritarian will. While our constitution and social structure inhibit Harper's proclivities in this direction, he and his fellow travellers are clearly archetypical authoritarians and I have no reservation about pointing this out. It has nothing to do with Nazis.


Nonsense no such proclivities exist except in the minds of leftist practitioners of hyperbole such as yourself and your reference most certainly does have a lot to do with Nazi's.


----------



## groovetube

jacbooted thugs isn't just a reference to nazis, nazis merely adopted it, it was already something in use and a phrase that has been used many times with nothing to do with nazis.

I find the indignation a little overdone here, as most here are relaxed enough to know a little fun without going overboard happens regularly in a poli thread, perhaps I should get really bent if someone dares reference Stalin when talking about socialist parties?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> jacbooted thugs isn't just a reference to nazis, nazis merely adopted it, it was already something in use and a phrase that has been used many times with nothing to do with nazis.
> 
> I find the indignation a little overdone here, as most here are relaxed enough to know a little fun without going overboard happens regularly in a poli thread, perhaps I should get really bent if someone dares reference Stalin when talking about socialist parties?


Yep maybe it says more about the individuals with the knotted undies, than they wished to reveal.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> jacbooted thugs isn't just a reference to nazis, nazis merely adopted it, it was already something in use and a phrase that has been used many times with nothing to do with nazis.
> 
> *I find the indignation a little overdone here*, as most here are relaxed enough to know a little fun without going overboard happens regularly in a poli thread, perhaps I should get *really bent if someone dares reference Stalin when talking about socialist parties?*


Personally I find the trite manner in which some people bandy about serious pejoratives around here, expecting not to be called out on it, a little juvenile. 

Well you should because Stalin wasn't a socialist he was blood thirsty tyrant who perpetrated all manner of atrocity.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Yep maybe it says more about the individuals with the knotted undies, than they wished to reveal.


Right. That must be it...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> As was pointed out in an excellent interview on The Current this morning and in a very astute article yesterday in the Ottawa Citizen the audience for these ads is not the one you seem to think it is...
> 
> The Current - Trudeau Attack Ads
> 
> 
> Don’t assume Tories’ Trudeau ads will backfire


Yes, the real drive behind the Conservative attack ads was to increase charitable donations:
Tory attack ad on Trudeau over charity


----------



## Sonal

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes, the real drive behind the Conservative attack ads was to increase charitable donations:
> Tory attack ad on Trudeau over charity


:lmao: That's a great response from Trudeau supporters.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sonal said:


> :lmao: That's a great response from Trudeau supporters.


Well that's not all.

Conservative attack ads fuel Liberal fundraising boom - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

I kinda thought this might occur, but thought it better to wait for the headline.

Yep, keep slinging da mud!


----------



## BigDL

*The Conservative Attack On Justin Trudeau Deepens*

Our Glorious Leader went out his way to bring up the issue of Justin Trudeau's interview on CBC's Nation News with Peter Mansbridge. OGL was not any questions about Trudeau after OGL attended a funeral.



OGL said:


> The Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper, criticized the remarks of new Liberal leader, Justin Trudeau, on Wednesday regarding the need “to look at the root causes” of what led to this week’s terrorist attack in Boston. Trudeau was inquired in an interview on Tuesday night, about how he would have responded to the attacks that killed three people and left about 170 injured...
> 
> ...Whereas, Harper was speaking to reporters from London after attending the funeral of former British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, on Wednesday, when he alleged that Trudeau’s answer was unacceptable. He stated that “when you see this kind of action, when you see this kind of violent act, you do not sit around trying to rationalize it or make excuses for it or figure out its root causes.” He explained that “you condemn it categorically and to the extent that you can deal with the perpetrators you deal with them as harshly as possible and that is what this government would do if it ever was faced with such actions.”


Harper Criticizes Trudeau?s Remarks over Boston Bombing | Oye Times

It was reported on CBC Newsworld's Power and Politics that Our Glorious Leader's comments came after a Harper's Minion errr Caucus Toady in Member Statements said the same comment earlier than OLG's attack.


----------



## BigDL

A quick question does anyone know if Lyin' Brian got a free flight to London with OGL for a funeral or did he have take some of our million $$$ to pay for it on his own?


----------



## iMouse

He deigned to give the CBC a clip, 

which more than made up for his trip.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader went out his way to bring up the issue of Justin Trudeau's interview on CBC's Nation News with Peter Mansbridge. OGL was not any questions about Trudeau after OGL attended a funeral.
> 
> 
> 
> Harper Criticizes Trudeau?s Remarks over Boston Bombing | Oye Times
> 
> It was reported on CBC Newsworld's Power and Politics that Our Glorious Leader's comments came after a Harper's Minion errr Caucus Toady in Member Statements said the same comment earlier than OLG's attack.


Now why would anyone want to look at the root causes?

It almost seems like Trudeau is goading Harper into these responses. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

*Update with video I referenced in first post*



BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader went out his way to bring up the issue of Justin Trudeau's interview on CBC's Nation News with Peter Mansbridge. OGL was not any questions about Trudeau after OGL attended a funeral.


Update video of Our Glorious Leader's comments and Trudeau's comments in question

The Video is here --> Harper slams Trudeau - Politics - CBC Player




> It was reported on CBC Newsworld's Power and Politics that Our Glorious Leader's comments came after a Harper's Minion errr Caucus Toady in Member Statements said the same comment earlier than OLG's attack.


Harper Criticizes Trudeau?s Remarks over Boston Bombing | Oye Times


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> A quick question does anyone know if Lyin' Brian got a free flight to London with OGL for a funeral or did he have take some of our million $$$ to pay for it on his own?


Good question. Did he pay back the $2 mill of settlement money he was given after it was proven he lied about taking cash payments? There's no hore like an old hore, eh Brian. Class act.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Andrew Coyne's column advocating changing the rules re. attack ads. He's joined the party leader voice over club and suggest rejigging the tax credits associated with developing these offensive tools of the political trade.
Attack ads are political deathstars but their target is democracy | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## CubaMark

_Goodbye, Canada Health Council...._


*By closing the Health Council of Canada, Stephen Harper is abandoning national medicare*



> Health Ministers from across Canada were recently told by the Harper government that it will stop funding the Health Council of Canada and wants it “wound down” in order to save $6 million.
> 
> When the Harper government says it is time to wind down the Health Council of Canada, it is saying in effect, it is time to wind down national medicare.





> The Harper government’s decision to terminate the Health Council will put an end to pan-Canadian health outcomes, common standards across the country and comparable indicators. It also strikes a blow to accountability, transparency and evidence-based health care policy. The official line is: “Let the provinces experiment.” The implicit assumption is that Canada should not maintain national standards in health care or strive for national objectives.


(TorontoStar)


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Our Glorious Leader went out his way to bring up the issue of Justin Trudeau's interview on CBC's Nation News with Peter Mansbridge. OGL was not any questions about Trudeau after OGL attended a funeral.
> 
> 
> 
> Harper Criticizes Trudeau?s Remarks over Boston Bombing | Oye Times
> 
> It was reported on CBC Newsworld's Power and Politics that Our Glorious Leader's comments came after a Harper's Minion errr Caucus Toady in Member Statements said the same comment earlier than OLG's attack.


It seems Trudeau's gaffe response was noted by others than just the PM...

Trudeau needs a lesson on terrorism



> ...Has Trudeau done any reading, much less any thinking, about terrorism? The “root cause” argument for terrorism was popular among left-learning academics after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States in 2001. Terrorism, they argued, is rooted in poverty, frustration over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and memories of empire. Western exploitation of “others” is the source of terrorism. If only western societies were more “inclusive,” if freedom and democracy, along with the cornucopia of consumer goods and technology, were extended to the whole world, nobody would want to kill and maim children and young women with shrapnel-loaded pressure-cookers.
> 
> The fact is that many, if not most, terrorist events of recent years — whether the 9/11 attacks, the 2004 Madrid train bombing, the London Underground bombing in 2005, Sweden’s 2010 Christmas season bomber, for example — have been carried out by those who’ve grown up in relative prosperity, enjoyed decent educations and general societal acceptance. The “root cause” of their turn to terrorism is not poverty or even societal disaffection. Indeed, I would argue the Islamists, like the Nazis and Communists, are motivated more by spiritual disease. (Surely those who are at “war with innocents,” to quote Trudeau, occupy the realm of sociopathology, thereby placing themselves beyond any possibility of social inclusion.) They see themselves as specially chosen, whether by God, the Fuhrer or History, and justify their killing as sanctioned by a higher purpose. You’re not going to deflect them from that purpose with talk of inclusion and feel-better socialization.
> 
> Trudeau, on the other hand, with his concern for the “feelings” of bomb-makers, his fretting over their sense of exclusion, seems to think we can come together to sing We Are The World. He does not apparently understand that modern societies have enemies, whether foreign Islamists or domestic neo-Nazis — there are close ideological ties between Islamic terrorism and Nazism, but that’s another topic — who are devoted to destruction of the western world in large part because they hate its progressivist notions of inclusion, toleration and multiculturalism. It is ideas like freedom, democracy and equality that the terrorists, whether Islamist or Aryan, loathe. And what they loathe they seek to destroy, exploiting naive notions of cultural relativism and diversity that actually make it easier for them to attack.
> 
> The irony is obvious. The cosmopolitan consensus dictates embracing the moral equivalence of all cultures. To do so, however, is to effectively renounce any moral capacity to oppose the illiberal ideologies of those who hate modernity. Whether jihadis or self-proclaimed Aryans, they variously promote racism, gender apartheid, religious intolerance, hatred of homosexuals, and the maintenance of an oppressive patriarchy. Yet, Trudeau seems to think that making such people feel accepted, easing their “tensions,” is the solution.
> 
> Of course, the world doesn’t work that way, and never has. Trudeau the Elder, he of “Just watch me” fame, certainly knew this. Can you imagine him fretting about the feelings of the FLQ terrorists? That Trudeau the Younger, at the ripe old age of 41, doesn’t understand the reality of the enemy, suggests he is not ready for the exercise of prime ministerial power, at least not yet...


Trudeau’s touchy-feely terrorism comments will hurt him more than any Tory attack ad












> ...The worst aspect of what Trudeau said isn’t that it is wrong: In some nominal talk-therapy sense, almost all violent criminals feel “excluded” and “at war with innocents.” It is the tired vagueness: The mental process seemed to consist of plucking clichés at random from out of a Chrétien-era archive marked “Canadian foreign policy, pre-9/11.” If it had been just one word or sentence that was inappropriate, Trudeau could apologize, recast his remarks, and move on. But you can’t walk back a whole paragraph of obsolete drivel: They apparently represent how he actually thinks — or doesn’t think — about terrorism.
> 
> Trudeau is, of course, quite correct to say that we don’t know who planted the Boston bombs. But no matter who eventually is arrested, it’s hard to see any scenario that bears out his analysis. Just take a moment to go back over the last dozen or so terrorist plots against the United States, and see if any of them answer to Trudeau’s description of terrorism as exclusionary-bullying-gone-horribly-awry.
> 
> In 2011, for instance, two North Africans living in New York were arrested for plotting to attack a synagogue with grenades and pistols while disguised as Jews. A few months later, the United States disrupted an alleged Iranian conspiracy to blow up the Saudi and Israeli embassies in Washington. The same year, four Georgian right-wing fanatics were arrested on suspicion of plotting to kill “un-American” politicians and dropping ricin on Atlanta. In 2012, three similarly minded men were charged with an alleged plot to poison a Washington State apple orchard. Would Mr. Trudeau’s comments make any more sense — would they be any less politically tone deaf — if applied to these episodes rather than to this week’s attack Boston?
> 
> Never did the Tory caricature of Trudeau as a dilettante seem more accurate. Indeed, the Liberal leader’s own words are far more damaging than the Tories’ silly and intellectually dishonest attack ads (whose lameness, until now, had been dominating national political gossip this week).
> 
> This is — or was — a heady time for the Liberals. For a variety of reasons, ranging from abortion to shark-fin soup, a lot of wavering Conservative supporters are trying to like Justin Trudeau, and to brush off the Tory charge that “he’s in way over his head.” That task just got harder. And Trudeau has only himself to blame.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> _Goodbye, Canada Health Council...._
> 
> 
> *By closing the Health Council of Canada, Stephen Harper is abandoning national medicare*
> 
> 
> 
> (TorontoStar)


From an author with a vested interest in the Canada Health Council...

Now from someone who doesn't:

Tears are misplaced for axed Health Council



> This week, the federal government announced that it would no longer fund the Health Council of Canada. According to Steve Outhouse, a spokesperson for Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq, “Largely its mandate was related to reporting around the existing health accord … It is a time of fiscal restraint, so, with the current health accord coming up for expiry, it’s a natural time to wind down the organization, or wind down federal funding for it.”
> 
> Cue the outcry. Former Saskatchewan Premier Roy Romanow, author of the 2002 healthcare report that bears his name and that recommended the creation of the council, told the Globe and Mail the move was “retrograde.” The council’s CEO, John Abbott, expressed disappointment, according to iPolitics.ca, “because the council, along with many health experts, see a continuing role for the council around, really, two things: the accountability side, as well as raising Canadians understanding of the healthcare system, the issues at play … There’s a trusted voice that will be lost now as a result of this.”
> 
> With all due respect, gentlemen, there are no shortage of voices in the healthcare debate, and the Health Council of Canada wasn’t the loudest or most important. And in terms of “raising Canadians’ understanding” of the system, Canadians can get plenty of that from the government’s own site, Health Canada. Its home page may not be as sexy as the council’s, but it offers much of the same information, and, in fact, more to people looking to access services.
> 
> Bodies like the council are not meant to be permanent creations. They come and go as their mandate requires. In 1992, former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney axed a number of similar organizations including the Economic Council of Canada, the Science Council of Canada, and the Law Reform Commission. The subsequent Liberal government of Jean Chrétien went down the opposite road, ploughing public money into creatures as the Canadian Policy Research Network and the Trudeau Foundation. It also revived two Trudeau-era creations, the Charter Challenges Program and Katimavik (whose funding expired on March 31 of this year), and maintained Rights and Democracy (created by the Tories in 1988 until it was shuttered in 2012).
> 
> Why do we often assume that once a government body is in place, it should simply continue forever? It may start off with a purpose, but often ends up as a convenient sinecure for politically-friendly appointees (or in the case of Katimavik, children of former Prime Ministers). Their work can often be duplicated by new, more relevant entities.
> 
> Unfortunately, as the late economist Milton Friedman said, nothing is as permanent as a temporary government program. Once something is established, it takes on a life of its own, with a league of “stakeholders” who work for it, produce reports for it, get recognition from it — and defend it to the death when its existence is threatened.
> 
> To their credit, in the last two years the Conservatives have taken out the pruning shears. They did away with the embattled Rights and Democracy, and most recently shuffled CIDA off to Foreign Affairs. They have implemented a strategic and operating review of the public service, aiming to trim over 19,000 jobs over three years.
> 
> But that will not counteract the increase in the public service under their watch. As reported by Postmedia News in 2011, after a period of retrenchment in the late 1990’s, Ottawa’s bureaucracy grew by 34% between 2000-01 and 2010-11, to 283,000 employees, “especially during the nearly six years the Harper government has been in office.” At the same time, Canada’s population increased only 11%.
> 
> And the Tories have also been busy creating new entities, such as the Office for the Promotion of Religious Freedom, whose globetrotting mandate seems doomed from the start, and the Parliamentary Budget Office, a move the government came to regret after former PBO head Kevin Page kept contradicting the finance minister. They also established the ill-fated office of the Integrity Commissioner, which proved a public relations nightmare after it was revealed in 2011 that it took no action on over 200 complaints; the commissioner, Christiane Ouimet, subsequently resigned, albeit with a half-million dollar severance package.
> 
> In other words, this government isn’t necessarily wedded to the idea of a smaller bureaucracy — just a different one.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It seems Trudeau's gaffe response was noted by others than just the PM...
> 
> Trudeau needs a lesson on terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau’s touchy-feely terrorism comments will hurt him more than any Tory attack ad


imagine a couple columnists agreeing with Harper's words!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> imagine a couple columnists agreeing with Harper's words!


Your point? 

IMO they have it totally right. Trudeau's comments displayed a lack of knowledge and understanding and reflect his lack of intellectual fortitude.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> From an author with a vested interest in the Canada Health Council...
> 
> Now from someone who doesn't:
> 
> Tears are misplaced for axed Health Council



I am sure this is a bit out of context but it is interesting to note that the Cons seem to be proud of taking out Rights and Democracy. One of my main complaints about all current governments.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I am sure this is a bit out of context but *it is interesting to note that the Cons seem to be proud of taking out Rights and Democracy.* One of my main complaints about all current governments.


I don't know if it is out of context but I am having difficulty understanding what you are trying to say.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> It seems Trudeau's gaffe response was noted by others than just the PM...
> 
> Yes that's true others did negatively comment on the Trudeau statement. I'm not really sure it was a gaffe though. There was also a female MP (name escapes me) who jumped all over Trudeau's root cause statement prior to the PM issuing his statement in front of the UK High Commission. I'm baffled by this given that the security establishments in the U.S. and here for that matter will be engaging their psych divisions to analyze root causes - it's standard procedure in security and it helps in developing counter strategies and profiles for police use. Senior politicians will be briefed with these findings. Harper knows this.
> 
> I think Trudeau's statement was appropriate - that it was sad that Harper was politicising this very tragic event in Boston.
> 
> I know I'm certainly curious as to why 3 London, Ontario raised Canadians became embroiled in recent terrorist activities. Perhaps, true to Harper's statement he simply doesn't care, but I have my doubts.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> screature said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems Trudeau's gaffe response was noted by others than just the PM...
> 
> Yes that's true others did negatively comment on the Trudeau statement. I'm not really sure it was a gaffe though. There was also a female MP (name escapes me) who jumped all over Trudeau's root cause statement prior to the PM issuing his statement in front of the UK High Commission. I'm baffled by this given that the security establishments in the U.S. and here for that matter will be engaging their psych divisions to analyze root causes - it's standard procedure in security and it helps in developing counter strategies and profiles for police use. Senior politicians will be briefed with these findings. Harper knows this.
> 
> I think Trudeau's statement was appropriate - that it was sad that Harper was politicising this very tragic event in Boston.
> 
> I know I'm certainly curious as to why 3 London, Ontario raised Canadians became embroiled in recent terrorist activities. Perhaps, true to Harper's statement he simply doesn't care, but I have my doubts.
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Your point?
> 
> IMO they have it totally right. Trudeau's comments displayed a lack of knowledge and understanding and reflect his lack of intellectual fortitude.


the point is right there in your post.

in your opinion, and a couple columnists. Big surprise.

This still doesn't make it a big gaffe by any stretch, no matter how much the cons wish it to be.

Skippy put it best.


----------



## i-rui

his point was a conservative talking point which is being trumpeted in their echo chamber. gotta stay on point you know....



screature said:


>


so was it a bad time to politicize the attack? I guess if you're a Harper fan it wasn't.

irony overload.


----------



## eMacMan

Examining root causes as motivation is entirely different than removing the motivation.

Ultimately the best way to fight terrorism is indeed to address the root causes. 

Personally I remain unafraid of anything a terrorist is likely to do to me or mine. I am much more afraid of what our government(s) will do to us in the name of fighting terrorism. I originally made that statement on 9/11/2001. Said that before: The Patriot Act, Team Sexual Assault, Homeland Security................................................................


----------



## groovetube

I don't know that the irony is apparent in the echo chamber...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> the point is right there in your post.
> 
> in your opinion, and a couple columnists. Big surprise.
> 
> This *still doesn't make it a big gaffe by any stretch*, no matter how much the cons wish it to be.
> 
> Skippy put it best.


Big surprise that you feel that way. 

It still is no matter how much the Libs don't want it to be...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *his point was a conservative talking point which is being trumpeted in their echo chamber. gotta stay on point you know....*
> 
> so was it a bad time to politicize the attack? I guess if you're a Harper fan it wasn't.
> 
> irony overload.


That's rich coming from the echo chamber of the left...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Big surprise that you feel that way.
> 
> It still is no matter how much the Libs don't want it to be...


When a deplorable act is committed, conservatives first ask: "Who did this?"

Liberals ask, "How did I drive them to do it?"


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Examining root causes as motivation is entirely different than removing the motivation.
> 
> *Ultimately the best way to fight terrorism is indeed to address the root causes. *
> 
> Personally I remain unafraid of anything a terrorist is likely to do to me or mine. I am much more afraid of what our government(s) will do to us in the name of fighting terrorism. I originally made that statement on 9/11/2001. Said that before: The Patriot Act, Team Sexual Assault, Homeland Security................................................................


You clearly didn't read the article...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> When a deplorable act is committed, conservatives first ask: "Who did this?"
> 
> Liberals ask, "How did I drive them to do it?"


Nonsense. With this despicable Boston episode I haven't encountered a sole who doesn't want to get the bastard(s) regardless of their political persuasion.

It would be nice if people would stop politicising the matter but that will not happen anytime soon.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> When a deplorable act is committed, conservatives first ask: "Who did this?"
> 
> Liberals ask, "How did I drive them to do it?"


No, more like :

when a deplorable act is committed Trudeau first offers condolences to the victims, wants to see justice done, and states we need to understand the root causes to learn and perhaps prevent future attacks.

Harper first asks how can i exploit this for political gain.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> No, more like :
> 
> when a deplorable act is committed Trudeau first offers condolences to the victims, wants to see justice done, and states we need to understand the root causes to learn and perhaps prevent future attacks.
> 
> *Harper first asks how can i exploit this for political gain.*


Completely wrong, utter nonsense and shamelss leftist spin:



> Date: April 15, 2013
> For immediate release
> 
> STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA ON EXPLOSIONS AT THE BOSTON MARATHON
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued the following statement on the explosions at the Boston Marathon:
> 
> “I was shocked to learn of the explosions that occurred today during the running of the Boston Marathon. It is truly a sad day when an event as inspiring as the Boston Marathon is clouded by such senseless violence.
> 
> “Our thoughts and prayers are with those injured or affected by this horrible incident. We stand with our American neighbours in this difficult time.”
> 
> Canadians in Boston requiring emergency assistance should contact the Consulate General at (617) 247-5100. Friends and relatives seeking information on Canadian citizens believed to be in the area should contact 1-800-387-3124 or [email protected].


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Completely wrong, utter nonsense and shamelss leftist spin:


And here's Trudeau's official statement - See the leftist spin:

Statement by Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau on the Explosions at the Boston Marathon
POSTED ON APRIL 15, 2013
OTTAWA– Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau made the following statement today on the explosions at the Boston Marathon:

“I was shocked and saddened to hear of the explosions that occurred today at the Boston Marathon.

During what was an event worthy of celebration for thousands of people – including many Canadians – this senseless act of violence has left us reeling.

My thoughts and condolences are with all those in Boston at this time, especially the victims and their families.”


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> No, more like :
> 
> when a deplorable act is committed Trudeau first offers condolences to the victims, wants to see justice done, and states we need to understand the root causes to learn and perhaps prevent future attacks.
> 
> Harper first asks how can i exploit this for political gain.


Perhaps Harpo is more likely to:
Offer condolences, profess an interest in seeing justice done, use it as an excuse to revive Bill C38 or something even worse.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's getting hard to soar with the eagles when we're flying with Turkeys.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nonsense. With this despicable Boston episode I haven't encountered a sole who doesn't want to get the bastard(s) regardless of their political persuasion.
> 
> It would be nice if people would stop politicising the matter but that will not happen anytime soon.


I'm politicizing Justin.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Justin Trudeau Attack Ad - Sex with your wife - YouTube


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Justin Trudeau Attack Ad - Sex with your wife - YouTube


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nonsense. With this despicable Boston episode I haven't encountered a sole who doesn't want to get the bastard(s) regardless of their political persuasion.
> 
> *It would be nice if people would stop politicising the matter *but that will not happen anytime soon.


Yeah, like you aren't .


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And here's Trudeau's official statement - *See the leftist spin*:
> 
> Statement by Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau on the Explosions at the Boston Marathon
> POSTED ON APRIL 15, 2013
> OTTAWA– Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau made the following statement today on the explosions at the Boston Marathon:
> 
> “I was shocked and saddened to hear of the explosions that occurred today at the Boston Marathon.
> 
> During what was an event worthy of celebration for thousands of people – including many Canadians – this senseless act of violence has left us reeling.
> 
> My thoughts and condolences are with all those in Boston at this time, especially the victims and their families.”


Follow along... I was saying i-rui's comment was leftist spin...


----------



## Sonal

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Justin Trudeau Attack Ad - Sex with your wife - YouTube


:lmao: It's funny 'cause it's true.  :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

Happily I saw it, and just in time too.

"This video has been removed by the user."

You can smell the stench of lawyers in the air tonight.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nothing like free enterprise as in "free loaders" -
Cash-strapped Tory fundraising company owes federal government $1 million in unpaid taxes


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

iMouse said:


> Happily I saw it, and just in time too.
> 
> "This video has been removed by the user."
> 
> You can smell the stench of lawyers in the air tonight.


No sense of humour in the Conservative corridors obviously. Sad.


----------



## iMouse

Tyrants have a severe allergy to ridicule.

"They seek him here, they seek him there, ....."


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

iMouse said:


> "They seek him here, they seek him there, ....."


Ray Davies rules!


----------



## iMouse

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Ray Davies rules!


I was thinking The Scarlet Pimpernel, but OK. :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Conservative defence minister - root causes of the Oslo massacre:

http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=n7579464


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> screature said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems Trudeau's gaffe response was noted by others than just the PM...
> 
> Yes that's true others did negatively comment on the Trudeau statement. I'm not really sure it was a gaffe though. There was also a female MP (name escapes me) who jumped all over Trudeau's root cause statement prior to the PM issuing his statement in front of the UK High Commission. I'm baffled by this given that the security establishments in the U.S. and here for that matter will be engaging their psych divisions to analyze root causes - it's standard procedure in security and it helps in developing counter strategies and profiles for police use. Senior politicians will be briefed with these findings. Harper knows this.
> 
> I think Trudeau's statement was appropriate - that it was sad that Harper was politicising this very tragic event in Boston.
> 
> I know I'm certainly curious as to why 3 London, Ontario raised Canadians became embroiled in recent terrorist activities. Perhaps, true to Harper's statement he simply doesn't care, but I have my doubts.
> 
> 
> 
> When I heard JT's run on statement starting at "crazy" I thought you're saying too much.
> 
> Jack Layton was the same with saying too much when he first became leader and got whacked many times for it and deservedly so.
> 
> I thought JT's true misdemeanour was his reaction outside Parliament in the foyer when he gave the statement in reaction to Harper's statement. IMO he should not have gone out to the press so unprepared. He looked inexperienced, he looked unprepared and he looked like a doofus.
> 
> The reason he looked like a doofus was OGL goosed him and he lost his $#!† over it.
> 
> No one asked him for anything, JT just charged out to the press.
> 
> JT had time to formulate a strategy and a statement and the plan to counter the OGL's Regressive Conservative effectively. Did he take the time to think, no he did not.
> 
> Rookie mistake? He won't be given too much slack, for very long, if does this 'shoot from the lip' thing repeatedly. He will quickly "blow" what advantage he presently enjoys.
> 
> OGL and his minions will do this over and over again to JT unless JT and his handlers smarten up. The Regressive Conservatives will be storing up these reaction shots to further undermine JT's and the Liberal's credibility.
> 
> JT can't control Our Glorious Leader and Regressive Conservatives Machine but he should be able to control himself or at least the Liberal Party should be in charge of the reaction shots.
Click to expand...


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Conservative defence minister - root causes of the Oslo massacre:
> 
> Prime Minister Harper offers condolences in Oslo bombing, shooting | Macleans.ca - Canada - Features


oh no he didn't say root causes! :lmao::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Yeah, like you aren't .


how are we politicizing this?

It was Harper who did so, plain and simple. He took the opportunity to not only take a shot at JT, but do so abroad.

Taking a shot at what his own defence minister had said once about the Oslo massacre as Skippy pointed out.

Pathetic.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> how are we politicizing this?
> 
> It was Harper who did so, plain and simple. He took the opportunity to not only take a shot at JT, but do so abroad.
> 
> Taking a shot at what his own defence minister had said once about the Oslo massacre as Skippy pointed out.
> 
> Pathetic.


See! It's all your fault. You have been told and being your fault will be restated until no further evidence is required it will be all true for the right side.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Send us the link. Where's the proof?
Etc.

🙊🙉🙈


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> oh no he didn't say root causes! :lmao::lmao:


Sorry Tim. Read the article twice. Did not see any mention by Mr. M of the root causes. I am sure not even the most virulent Con supporter honestly believes that killing a bunch of Afghanis and helping to destroy the remains of a tattered infrastructure is in any way really attacking what causes terrorism. Only attacking an operational base.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Conservative defence minister - root causes of the Oslo massacre:





groovetube said:


> oh no he didn't say root causes! :lmao::lmao:


Uh it was MacKay who said it not the PM or a supposed leader in waiting...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *how are we politicizing this?*
> 
> It was Harper who did so, plain and simple. He took the opportunity to not only take a shot at JT, but do so abroad.
> 
> Taking a shot at what his own defence minister had said once about the Oslo massacre as Skippy pointed out.
> 
> Pathetic.


This.

Also I didn't know that skippy and you are an "item". Since when does a post to him constitute a post to you and the need to reply with "we"?


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Sorry Tim. Read the article twice. Did not see any mention by Mr. M of the root causes. I am sure not even the most virulent Con supporter honestly believes that killing a bunch of Afghanis and helping to destroy the remains of a tattered infrastructure is in any way really attacking what causes terrorism. Only attacking an operational base.


You're kidding I hope?



screature said:


> This.
> 
> Also I didn't know that skippy and you are an "item". Since when does a post to him constitute a post to you and the need to reply with "we"?


What?

I saw accusations that those of us who are critical of Harper and his attack on JT are politicizing this whole thing. I simply asked how 'we' (the posters critical of Harper's attack) are politicizing this, when it was Harper who did so quite clearly. (and did so abroad to boot...) Perhaps I misread the accusation that we are politicizing.

Why do we need to go down the road of 'you two are an item' juvenile stuff? Is that necessary?

Let's stay on topic rather than attacking personally.


----------



## i-rui

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Conservative defence minister - root causes of the Oslo massacre:
> 
> Prime Minister Harper offers condolences in Oslo bombing, shooting | Macleans.ca - Canada - Features


hilarious!

the Harpocricy is astounding!!


----------



## groovetube

I have a feeling that in future Harper won't be able to keep it zipped enough for us to witness far more hypocrisy.

If JT was smart he'd goad him into more fun


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I have a feeling that in future Harper won't be able to keep it zipped enough for us to witness far more hypocrisy.
> 
> If JT was smart he'd goad him into more fun


Trouble with that is, JT isn't smart.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You're kidding I hope?
> 
> 
> 
> What?
> 
> I saw accusations that those of us who are critical of Harper and his attack on JT are politicizing this whole thing. I simply asked how 'we' (the posters critical of Harper's attack) are politicizing this, when it was Harper who did so quite clearly. (and did so abroad to boot...) Perhaps I misread the accusation that we are politicizing.
> 
> Why do we need to go down the road of 'you two are an item' juvenile stuff? Is that necessary?
> 
> Let's stay on topic rather than attacking personally.


Seems those on left don't have a sense of humour either.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Seems those on left don't have a sense of humour either.


The like two kinds of humour--when they poke fun at you and when you poke fun at yourself. Everything else is off the table!


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Seems those on left don't have a sense of humour either.


well I didn't see any smilie, and given some posts it's rather hard to spot humour.

Sorry if I missed it.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Trouble with that is, JT isn't smart.


Makes me laugh to hear people saying he needs to watch his step. The gaffe-meter is already off the charts!


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Seems those on left don't have a sense of humour either.


I wonder why almost all the great comedians are 'liberal/progressive'? I did some googling, and found that I'm certainly not the first to notice this. There have even been some articles written about this phenomena in the popular media as well as some serious academic studies.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Trouble with that is, JT isn't smart.


 Got any empirical evidence? 

Or is this just a pronouncement from the west, where it has been restated so often, that proof is no longer required?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Trouble with that is, JT isn't smart.


I know you want to believe that, but I'll give it some time to watch as he performs as Liberal leader before making assumptions.

I'm guessing more than a few tories think otherwise and will spend a lot of time and effort on discrediting him.

It was entertaining to watch some tories lose their mind over the latest thing being a 'gaffe'.

If that's JT's big gaffe, he hasn't got much to worry about then.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I know you want to believe that, but I'll give it some time to watch as he performs as Liberal leader before making assumptions.
> 
> I'm guessing more than a few tories think otherwise and will spend a lot of time and effort on discrediting him.
> 
> It was entertaining to watch some tories lose their mind over the latest thing being a 'gaffe'.
> 
> If that's JT's big gaffe, he hasn't got much to worry about then.


I still rank PIT as one of Canada's worst PMs. That said JT is hopefully not his father. Even so at most one seat in Alberta.

What I do see is the Con crowd seemingly cringing in horror, and striking blindly at every opportunity. I can smell the fear, and by election time I believe that even the some of the dimmer bulbs in the electorate will clue in as well. 

Given that Ontario, Quebec and BC can still handily determine the outcome of an election, and that Harpos hold on those provinces seems at best marginal, it is quite possible that JT can win the next election. Of course the clincher for JT would be MF declaring there is no possible way King Harpo can lose the next election.

Part of this is that I seriously doubt that Mulcair will come anywhere close to Jack Layton's ballot box appeal. That leaves everything from just right of centre to the far left, wide open for the Liberals to grab.

It is possible some older voters could switch allegiance. Harpo has little love for Medicare, and is certainly perceived as wanting to go after CPP and OAS as well. How well JT can exploit this is of course yet to be determined, but as Harpo has consistently failed to appeal to younger voters. He cannot afford to lose even a portion of his main base.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I wonder why almost all the great comedians are 'liberal/progressive'? I did some googling, and found that I'm certainly not the first to notice this.


It's because leftists are outliers and their humour is born of the pain of their disenfranchisement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yeah not smart enough to make the Cons look like the ogres that they are. The CONS have pulled the Liberals Opposition day on Monday because the Liberals were about to introduce a neat little motion to suck in the Conservative Spring Revolters -

UPDATED - Gov't cancels Liberal opp day over pro-backbencher motion? - Inside Politics

Even with a majority the CONS are scarred of the motion.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well I didn't see any smilie, and given some posts it's rather hard to spot humour.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it.


Fair enough.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wow an attack ad and jackboots!
The True Nature of the Harper Government - YouTube


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Apparently CONS are going to introduce an anti-terrorism bill (this should be good - hope Toews introduces it), hence the pull of the Lib and NDP opposition days.

This is going to be interesting.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wow an attack ad and jackboots!
> The True Nature of the Harper Government - YouTube


Wow!!! The Harper Government of Canada is against goldfish, house plants and they don't like the fact that this woman wants her husband to stop smoking in the house. She should have voted for the Conservatives just like her husband.

High impact ad, however. Gets the message across quite well. Not sure that I like the jackboots, however.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I still rank PIT as one of Canada's worst PMs. That said JT is hopefully not his father. Even so at most one seat in Alberta.
> 
> What I do see is the Con crowd seemingly cringing in horror, and striking blindly at every opportunity. I can smell the fear, and by election time I believe that even the some of the dimmer bulbs in the electorate will clue in as well.
> 
> Given that Ontario, Quebec and BC can still handily determine the outcome of an election, and that Harpos hold on those provinces seems at best marginal, it is quite possible that JT can win the next election. Of course the clincher for JT would be MF declaring there is no possible way King Harpo can lose the next election.
> 
> Part of this is that I seriously doubt that Mulcair will come anywhere close to Jack Layton's ballot box appeal. That leaves everything from just right of centre to the far left, wide open for the Liberals to grab.
> 
> It is possible some older voters could switch allegiance. Harpo has little love for Medicare, and is *certainly perceived as wanting to go after CPP* and OAS as well. How well JT can exploit this is of course yet to be determined, but as Harpo has consistently failed to appeal to younger voters. He cannot afford to lose even a portion of his main base.


Where are you getting this from? 

CPP is paid into by the contributor it a pension and a separate fund, not a benefit, unlike OAS which is a benefit and is paid out of general revenue.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeah not smart enough to make the Cons look like the ogres that they are. The CONS have pulled the Liberals Opposition day on Monday because the Liberals were about to introduce a neat little motion to suck in the Conservative Spring Revolters -
> 
> UPDATED - Gov't cancels Liberal opp day over pro-backbencher motion? - Inside Politics
> 
> Even with a majority the CONS are scarred of the motion.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Apparently CONS are going to introduce an anti-terrorism bill (this should be good - hope Toews introduces it), hence the pull of the Lib and NDP opposition days.
> 
> This is going to be interesting.


Did you even read the O'Malley piece you linked to?

The Libs still get their Opposition day just at a later date so the Motion will still come forward. 

Bill S-7 the Combating Terrorism Act is not being introduced, in fact it is in its final stage in Parliament, says so right in the column.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Did you even read the O'Malley piece you linked to?
> 
> The Libs still get their Opposition day just at a later date so the Motion will still come forward.
> 
> Bill S-7 the Combating Terrorism Act is not being introduced, in fact it is in its final stage in Parliament, says so right in the column.


Ah yes. They updated the link. Wasn't there when I posted. Next time a screen shot.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Ah yes. They updated the link. Wasn't there when I posted. Next time a screen shot.


The dog ate it, but they got anew one.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Ah yes. They updated the link. Wasn't there when I posted. Next time a screen shot.


..."but justice delayed is justice denied"...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The dog regurgitated what I posted...even has a time stamp.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The dog regurgitated what I posted...even has a time stamp.


----------



## BigDL

*Leave The Making Fun of Justin Up To Us, Neo-Cons=riotwire*

.Leave the making fun of Justin up to us neocons.


riotwire said:


> Thanks for trying to make fun of Justin, Conservatives, but we at Riotwire.com will take it from here because you suck at it.
> 
> This week the Conservatives launched this political bunt against Justin, somehow implying that removing one’s shirt means you’re under-qualified to lead. Leave the making fun of Justin up to us, Neo-Cons














riotwire said:


> Are you seriously criticizing him for removing his shirt? Is your next ad going to tell us that sometimes he yells at his kids and snacks between meals?
> 
> Do you know who else removes his shirt? Mr. Rogers. And he is awesome. We all remember him because we’ve been looking for the helpers all week.















riotwire said:


> And are you really in a position to criticize upper body wear? WARNING: This next photo may be graphic to users with a fashion sense anywhere above “hobo.”














riotwire said:


> The clip of Justin that you used in your lame attack ad was taken at a fundraiser for healthcare. It was not a staged media event, like for instance, this pathetic stunt your ****** predecessor tried to pull off…


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Gee who's spending tax payers dollars on the root causes of terrorism? None other than Harper!

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/04/20/stephen-harpers-search-for-the-root-causes-of-terrorism/


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Gee who's spending tax payers dollars on the root causes of terrorism? None other than Harper!
> 
> Stephen Harper’s search for the root causes of terrorism - Capital Read, Inkless Wells - Macleans.ca


So?


----------



## groovetube

and... you don't see the irony...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> and... you don't see the irony...


Blinders on that helmet. BTW, didn't they raise taxes on helmets. Get some tin foil.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Blinders on that helmet. BTW, didn't they raise taxes on helmets. Get some tin foil.


just plug your ears and yell 'la la la la la'.

works everytime I guess.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Looks like that attack ad on the white and pasty guy with the Lego hair is back up. Get it while you can -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb-1XiHGjtM&sns=em


----------



## BigDL

*Satire as it should be the Neo-Cons don't do it correctly*

'









or


----------



## i-rui

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Gee who's spending tax payers dollars on the root causes of terrorism? None other than Harper!
> 
> Stephen Harper’s search for the root causes of terrorism - Capital Read, Inkless Wells - Macleans.ca


More hypocrisy from the Harpocrisy!


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> More hypocrisy from the Harpocrisy!


Finding out the root cause of terrorism so you can kick terrorist ass is not what JT was being accused of.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A typically skewed response from our skewered libertarian pundit. Wrong again.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A typically skewed response from our skewered libertarian pundit. Wrong again.


ha ha ha. I can just imagine.

not


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh man! Harper photo shaking hands with a terrorist. 

The article - 

http://canada.lilithezine.com/Harper-Shakes-Hands-w-Terrorist-Warlord.html


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh man! Harper photo shaking hands with a terrorist.
> 
> The article -
> 
> Harper shakes hands with Terrorist Warlord


even curiouser...

Stephen Harper’s “Northern Foundation” | On First Nation Issues, Jobs, Events, And Environmental Issues On The West Coast And World Events.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Jaw dropping! This could really put a jack-in-their-boots. 

I trust some conventional media will be taking a serious look at this.


----------



## groovetube

you would think all those 'leftie' media outlets would be all over it.

oh wait...


----------



## heavyall

It's staggering just how dishonest the left-leaning posters on this site are.


----------



## groovetube

and in more government is spending our tax dollars wisely news...
Ottawa cancelled events to mark end of long-gun registry at last moment | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

And here I thought they were proud of this accomplishment. WHat happened?


----------



## groovetube

Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan ordered to return danger pay

This is shameful. This from a government who often accuses others of not supporting our troops. This government wastes more than this amount in a short period. I wonder how much all that prep for a big splash on killing the gun registry that never happened cost, just for starters?


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It's staggering just how dishonest the left-leaning posters on this site are.


Combined, in some cases, with a complete disconnect from an understanding of how their government functions and what news items actually mean.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> It's staggering just how dishonest the left-leaning posters on this site are.


oh and seeing taken out of context video clips of Trudeau in an attack ad isn't either? Just one minor example of the sheer dishonesty of the cons....

cry me a river.

If the cons can do it so can others.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Gee who's spending tax payers dollars on the root causes of terrorism? None other than Harper!
> 
> Stephen Harper’s search for the root causes of terrorism - Capital Read, Inkless Wells - Macleans.ca


Paul Wells column is basically a lie that he crafted to twist the truth to suit the language he chose to use.

Nowhere in what the PM said as to the purpose of the research does it say "root causes" what it does say is this:



> he seventh annual National Day of Remembrance for Victims of Terrorism by launching the Kanishka Project, a five-year, $10 million program to *“invest in research on pressing questions for Canada on terrorism and counter-terrorism.”*
> 
> From the PM’s speech that day:
> 
> “…the first and most solemn duty of government is to keep its people safe. It took far too long to learn the lessons of Flight 182. One of those lessons is that information is an important tool in the struggle against terrorism. *We need to know as much as we can about terrorists, their tactics, and the best solutions to protect people*…
> 
> We will engage Canada’s best and brightest minds, and we will provide funding for publications, conferences and research projects – anything that can help us *build the knowledge base we need to effectively counter terrorism*.
> 
> The Kanishka Project is named in memory of everyone who boarded the aircraft, and we will ensure that the families of the victims are involved in helping to guide the project’s work.”


Nothing at all about "root-causes" but all about best practices to counter terrorism and how to keep the population safe.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> and... you don't see the irony...





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Blinders on that helmet. BTW, didn't they raise taxes on helmets. Get some tin foil.





groovetube said:


> just plug your ears and yell 'la la la la la'.
> 
> works everytime I guess.


What you fail to realize if that cries of "irony" fall flat because of context. What Harper is doing has nothing to do with a comment he made about a PM in waiting making an inappropriate comment immediately following an act of terror. You guys hate Harper and so are willing to completely ignore context and the truth so long as it fits within your narrative.


----------



## screature

Seems Trudeau's comment isn't flying too well in the US either...

Trudeaus and Terrorism



> Justin Trudeau’s first act as leader of Canada’s Liberal Party should have been simple enough. Less than 24 hours after being chosen for the post, the Boston Marathon bombings took place. All Trudeau had to do was express his sympathy for the victims and solidarity with the United States. Instead, he said this:
> 
> We have to look at the root causes. Now, we don’t know now if it was terrorism or a single crazy or a domestic issue or a foreign issue.
> 
> But there is no question that this happened because there is someone who feels completely excluded. Completely at war with innocents. At war with a society. And our approach has to be, okay, where do those tensions come from?
> 
> Root causes?
> 
> If it was terrorism?
> 
> Someone who feels excluded?
> 
> Naturally, Prime Minister Stephen Harper was appalled. Harper replied to Trudeau’s statement while in London to attend Margaret Thatcher’s funeral. Without mentioning Trudeau by name, Harper made his contempt for the new Liberal leader’s position clear:
> 
> When you see this type of violent act, you do not sit around trying to rationalize it or make excuses for it or figure out its root causes. You condemn it categorically, and to the extent you can deal with the perpetrators, you deal with them as harshly as possible.
> 
> Yet I am sure that Trudeau’s statement came as little surprise to Harper. In 2011, Trudeau objected to a Canadian government brochure for immigrants describing honor killings as “barbaric.” Just last December, Trudeau raised eyebrows as a keynote speaker to an Islamic conference in Toronto that was sponsored by an organization with links to Hamas (which withdrew its sponsorship just days before Trudeau was due to speak).
> 
> But what makes Trudeau’s statement about the Boston Marathon bombings so remarkable is how they stand in contrast to his father, Pierre Eliot Trudeau, who served as Canada’s Prime Minister from 1968 to 1984 (briefly interrupted by the short-lived Tory government of Joe Clark in 1979).
> 
> The elder Trudeau was tested by terrorism early in his first term. The Front de Liberation du Quebec (FLQ) was a Marxist group dedicated to attaining Quebec independence by violent means. Founded in 1963, the FLQ was known in its early days for setting bombs on Canadian government property, mostly mailboxes and military armories. By 1969, the FLQ escalated its violent campaign. In February of that year, the group bombed the Montreal Stock Exchange, injuring 27 people. Seven months later, it set off a bomb in the home of Montreal mayor Jean Drapeau. But the FLQ wasn’t done.
> 
> On October 5, 1970 (more than a year before Justin Trudeau was born), the FLQ kidnapped James Cross, the British Trade Commissioner. Five days later, it kidnapped Pierre LaPorte, Quebec’s Minister of Labour. This act of terrorism would become known as the October Crisis or the FLQ Crisis. Although Cross was eventually released, LaPorte would be murdered by the FLQ.
> 
> Trudeau responded to this crisis by putting Canada’s military on the streets of Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec City before persuading Canada’s parliament to pass the War Measures Act, which effectively put Canada under martial law. Seventy-two hours before invoking the War Measures Act, Trudeau had a confrontation with CBC reporter Tim Ralfe on the steps of Parliament Hill. The two men disagreed over law and order and civil liberties:
> 
> RALFE: I still go back to the choice you make and the kind society you live in.
> 
> TRUDEAU: Well, there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who don’t like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is go on and bleed. But it’s more important to keep law and order in this society than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don’t like the looks of a soldier.
> 
> (Page 2 of 2)
> 
> RALFE: At any cost? At any cost? How far would you go with that? How far would you extend that?
> 
> TRUDEAU: Just watch me.
> 
> Could you imagine President Obama referring to his constituency as bleeding hearts?
> 
> Unlike his son, the elder Trudeau did not concern himself with the root causes of the FLQ’s actions nor did he concern himself with whether FLQ members felt completely excluded from society. If Pierre Trudeau was still alive and heard what his son had to say about the Boston Marathon bombings, it is quite reasonable to argue that he would tell his son that he is acting like a bleeding heart.
> 
> But Pierre Trudeau is dead and gone and Justin Trudeau could one day be elected leader of our neighbor to the North. Therefore it is incumbent upon us to just watch him.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Paul Wells column is basically a lie that he crafted to twist the truth to suit the language he chose to use.
> 
> Nowhere in what the PM said as to the purpose of the research does it say "root causes" what it does say is this:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing at all about "root-causes" but all about best practices to counter terrorism and how to keep the population safe.
> 
> Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.


This is fast becoming a comedy show. 'root causes', 'learning as much as we can about the terrorists', 'knowledgeable', call it what you want.

But it's the right who's knee jerk reaction is to immediately yell about bleeding hearts when someone dares to utter the phrase 'root causes'. In fact if you are watching the US media the phrase 'root causes' is being thrown around daily everywhere.

Speaking of letting truth getting in the way of a good story...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Nothing at all about "root-causes" but all about best practices to counter terrorism and how to keep the population safe.


Exactly. 

Sadly, some people no longer even understand the meaning of the word "irony." "Ironic" now means that they are angry or confused.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> This is fast becoming a comedy show. 'root causes', 'learning as much as we can about the terrorists', 'knowledgeable', call it what you want.
> 
> But it's the right who's knee jerk reaction is to immediately yell about bleeding hearts when someone dares to utter the phrase 'root causes'. In fact if you are watching the US media the phrase 'root causes' is being thrown around daily everywhere.
> 
> Speaking of letting truth getting in the way of a good story...


See you don't get it. 

It isn't only about* what* he said it is about *when* he said it... it is obvious that one needs to study terrorists and terroism to fight it, that is not the point, it is that a only a rank amateur would make those comments immediately following the act terror because it expresses a "bleeding heart" toward the terrorists.

And BTW Trudeau senior was calling the ilk of his son bleeding hearts surrounding the FLQ if you read the article that I just linked to...

Here's someone who does get it:

All Hail Justin, You Know, I Mean, Trudeau
The Liberals' new leader talks and thinks more like a boy king.
The Tyee



> There is no accounting for political judgment when it gets caught up in irrational euphoria. The overwhelming victory of Justin Trudeau in the Liberal Party's leadership race demonstrates just how impoverished the state of our political culture has become. Did the polls -- almost completely meaningless at this stage of the political process -- so addle people's discernment that they could not see what was in front of them? In a stunning failure of imagination 80 per cent of those casting ballots effectively declared: We think a pretty face and a famous name is all we need to win and more importantly, all the country needs to lead it.
> 
> Justin Trudeau is allegedly 40 years-old, but his persona is one of a perpetual adolescent who can't be taken seriously, because he doesn't take the world seriously. He's spent his life avoiding anything truly challenging and seems addicted to having a good time -- to the exclusion of disciplined political work. His intellectual capacity, whatever it was, is now so atrophied that it seems clear he rarely engages on his own in serious analysis or thoughtful consideration of important political and philosophical questions.
> 
> Trudeau's interview with Peter Mansbridge -- one of the few situations where his advisors weren't holding his hand and telling him what to say -- should terrify all those who voted for him. In one (250 word) answer, to a question on the Boston terror bombing, Trudeau repeated the teenagers' favourite phrase "you know" eight times and "I mean" four times. This level of political immaturity and inarticulateness is normally expected of people who devote virtually no time to thinking about politics. Here's an excerpt -- Trudeau's answer to the question what would Trudeau do if he were prime minister. Read it and weep.
> 
> "First thing, you offer support and sympathy and condolences and, you know, can we send down, you know, EMTs or, I mean, as we contributed after 9-11? I mean, is there any material immediate support we have we can offer? And then at the same time, you know, over the coming days, we have to look at the root causes. Now we don't know now whether it was, you know, terrorism or a single crazy or, you know, a domestic issue or a foreign issue, I mean, all of those questions. But there is no question that this happened because there is someone who feels completely excluded, completely at war with innocents, at war with a society. I mean, yes, we need to make sure that we're promoting security and we're, you know, keeping our borders safe and, you know, monitoring the kinds of, you know, violent subgroups that happen around."
> 
> *"Violent subgroups that happen around"? Who talks like this? It is hard to imagine that Justin's father ever talked like this -- even at age five. This is a man revealed as one who may well be incapable of mature political behaviour let alone good political judgment. Harper smacked him around like a cat playing with a mouse before tiring of the game and finishing it off.
> 
> It's not just the content of the response, which is bad enough, but the inability to express coherent thoughts. Trudeau seemed to be mistaking a ruthless mass murderer for a violent kid who grew up in a bad home. His response is so far removed from what the vast majority of people feel about the issue that you have to wonder what, exactly, informs his opinions. The most rudimentary political instincts should have kicked in even if his advisors failed him.*
> 
> And this wasn't a momentary scrum with a few reporters. This was an interview with Peter Mansbridge -- the most valuable showcase any Canadian political leader can be provided. Liberals know that Stephen Harper will spend millions, if he has to, to define who Trudeau is before Trudeau can. This was Trudeau's big opportunity to define himself as a man of substance, with a vision, and someone who could represent Canada on the world stage.
> 
> Apparently we need to go elsewhere for Trudeau's substance and it seems he wants us to accept the theme from his leadership campaign and post-victory musings: that he is dedicated to Canada's middle class. More than half of Canadians identify themselves as belonging to the middle class, and there is no doubt that the middle class has suffered, "hollowed out" since the 1980s. In 1972, 56 per cent of all income went to the middle 60 per cent of Canadian families; in 2006 it was just 53 per cent. In the 1970s, 30 per cent of middle class families needed two incomes to maintain that status. Today that figure is 70 per cent. Since the early 1980s the middle class has gained virtually nothing from economic growth.
> 
> What accounts for this dramatic decline in the class of people who used to define the nation? In a word, globalization, and the public policies which stem from it and helped create it. Amongst those policies are free trade; lowered labour standards; passive acceptance of de-industrialization; the weakening of labour vis-à-vis capital through cuts to EI and welfare; the virtual abandonment of industrial policies to promote high paying jobs; the use of "temporary" foreign workers; cuts to the "social wage" which includes post-secondary education; and the transfer of wealth to the uber-rich from the middle class.
> 
> All of these policies have been eagerly embraced by the Liberal Party ever since Jean Chretien reneged on his 1993 election promise to revisit NAFTA. Paul Martin's singular economic policy was trade; he deliberately maintained high unemployment through most of the 1990s to "discipline labour" (including the middle class), cut government revenue by $100 billion over five years, gutted the UI program and abandoned the federal role in the provision of social welfare and effectively put an end to universality as a principle for post-secondary education and any new social programs.
> 
> In an article in the Globe and Mail, Trudeau does manage to identify some of these trials of the middle class: "While the economy has more than doubled in size in the past 30 years, middle-class incomes have gone up just 13 per cent." But nowhere does he criticize his Liberal predecessors' policies which created this situation. He commits to a new "national focus" on education, yet not funding for it. But it was Paul Martin's unprecedented spending cuts which precipitated the huge increases in tuition fees and massive student debt.
> 
> What Trudeau seems unwilling to admit is that the slow demise of the middle class is the result of corporate globalization and to revive middle class fortunes means a direct challenge of all of globalization's elements. Will he reverse any of these classic Liberal policies and if so which ones? Will he oppose any further trade deals? Will he try to re-industrialize through a massive renewable energy strategy? Will he revive the federal government's previous role in funding universities? Will he reverse the gutting of EI? Will he tax wealth?
> 
> Don't hold your breath. The real Trudeau is the empty vessel interviewed by Peter Mansbridge, and that means the party is in the hands of the same hypocritical apparatchiks who wrote -- and then casually betrayed -- the rosy promises in Jean Chretien's 1993 Red Book. Welcome back to the future. [Tyee]


----------



## eMacMan

Americans in past years were taught that the founding fathers did not trust governments. They were absolutely certain that any system of government they created would make every effort to drift towards tyranny. The Patriot Act clearly confirms this fear was justified.

For that very reason the US constitution was drafted in hopes of giving Americans some protection against that drift towards tyranny and failing that, the means to depose by ballot or if need be by force any tyrant that did arise.

In simplest terms the Nation was founded on the belief that Government should be afraid of the population not the other way around.

What Trudeau Sr. established was that the Canadian population should fear the government, an attitude that Harpo clearly seems to share. Where the young Trudeau stands will become clear not through attack ads but through his own actions or inactions, prior to the next election.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> See you don't get it.
> 
> It isn't only about* what* he said it is about *when* he said it... it is obvious that one needs to study terrorists and terroism to fight it, that is not the point, it is that a only a rank amateur would make those comments immediately following the act terror because it expresses a "bleeding heart" toward the terrorists.
> 
> And BTW Trudeau senior was calling the ilk of his son bleeding hearts surrounding the FLQ if you read the article that I just linked to...
> 
> Here's someone who does get it:
> 
> All Hail Justin, You Know, I Mean, Trudeau
> The Liberals' new leader talks and thinks more like a boy king.
> The Tyee


Oh sure, and rather than what JT expressed expressing what Harper did really shows them terrorists... 

Ridiculous.

I'm sorry but I simply don't accept your assertion that Harper's response is the only right way.


----------



## SINC

JT is truly so far out of his league as a leader it isn't even funny. Many know it now. Most voters will get it long before the next election. The last thing the country needs is a boy leader. Too bad the lefties and the Liberal party can't see the forest for the trees.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Americans in past years were taught that the founding fathers did not trust governments. They were absolutely certain that any system of government they created would make every effort to drift towards tyranny. The Patriot Act clearly confirms this fear was justified.
> 
> For that very reason the US constitution was drafted in hopes of giving Americans some protection against that drift towards tyranny and failing that, the means to depose by ballot or if need be by force any tyrant that did arise.
> 
> In simplest terms the Nation was founded on the belief that Government should be afraid of the population not the other way around.
> 
> *What Trudeau Sr. established was that the Canadian population should fear the government, an attitude that Harpo clearly seems to share. *Where the young Trudeau stands will become clear not through attack ads but through his own actions or inactions, prior to the next election.


Nonsense, defending your citizenry against violent terrorist acts does not teach the population that they need to fear their government, that is unless you are a violent terrorist.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> JT is truly so far out of his league as a leader it isn't even funny. Many know it now. Most voters will get it long before the next election. The last thing the country needs is a boy leader. Too bad the lefties and the Liberal party can't see the forest for the trees.


Well that's your opinion, and judging by the polls no, not many people "know it". Sorry. Though I know in some circles the name "Trudeau" instills a fear and loathing that doesn't exist anywhere else. Certainly far less so in Ontario/Quebec, BC and the atlantic provinces.

As for what happens over the next 2 years, it's a wait and see. Harper certainly has been showing quite clearly that he cannot deliver on what he's promised, and is stuttering heavily. I'd expect this to continue, so it will at least, be far more interesting to watch than the previous leader races.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> JT is truly so far out of his league as a leader it isn't even funny. Many know it now. Most voters will get it long before the next election. The last thing the country needs is a boy leader. Too bad the lefties and the Liberal party can't see the forest for the trees.


Boy leader?

Stephen Harper was 42 when became leader of the Canadian Alliance in 2002.

Justin Trudeau turns 42 later this year. 

They're not so far apart.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Nonsense, defending your citizenry against violent terrorist acts does not teach the population that they need to fear their government, that is unless you are a violent terrorist.


Depends on how you go about defending against the terrorists. Beating down doors, searching every home, sending cops or soldiers out on the streets in armoured vehicles with 10+ round per second machine guns is giving the terrorists exactly what they want: Proof that the powers that be are interested only in preserving that power.

In particular overriding basic human rights such as the right to a fair trial are exactly the reasons that those protecting us from terrorism are a far greater threat than any terrorist.


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> Boy leader?
> 
> Stephen Harper was 42 when became leader of the Canadian Alliance in 2002.
> 
> Justin Trudeau turns 42 later this year.
> 
> They're not so far apart.


There is a vast difference between the maturity level of the two at the same age. Anyone who cannot spot that glaring deficiency on JT's part is blind.


----------



## Sonal

eMacMan said:


> Depends on how you go about defending against the terrorists. Beating down doors, searching every home, sending cops or soldiers out on the streets in armoured vehicles with 10+ round per second machine guns is giving the terrorists exactly what they want: Proof that the powers that be are interested only in preserving that power.


A friend of mine, who lives near Cambridge MA, read several perspectives on the lockdown and feels that this one is the most true.

0xabad1dea - Thoughts on the Boston Lockdown from the edge


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> See you don't get it.
> 
> It isn't only about* what* he said it is about *when* he said it... it is obvious that one needs to study terrorists and terroism to fight it, that is not the point, it is that a only a rank amateur would make those comments immediately following the act terror because it expresses a "bleeding heart" toward the terrorists.


lol

so i guess Peter Mackay (the former PC leader) was a "rank amateur" when he said the same thing *immediately* after the Oslo attacks?

Amazing who you conservatives will throw under the bus to protect your leader!

But let's say we buy your argument that the error was not *what* he said, but *when* he said it, the larger question becomes if only a "rank amateur" would choose to say that after the bombings, what kind of a person would choose to immediately politicize the tragic event? Certainly someone who lacks the necessary moral and ethical compass to lead our country. 

I'll take a "rank amateur" every day of the week over a heartless swine.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> lol
> 
> so i guess Peter Mackay was a "rank amateur" when he said the same thing *immediately* after the Oslo attacks?
> 
> Amazing who you conservatives will throw under the bus to protect your leader!
> 
> But let's say we buy your argument that the error was not *what* he said, but *when* he said it, the larger question becomes if only a "rank amateur" would choose to say that after the bombings, what kind of a person would choose to immediately politicize the tragic event? Certainly someone who lacks the necessary moral and ethical compass to lead our country.
> 
> I'll take a "rank amateur" every day of the week over a heartless swine.


:clap:


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> There is a vast difference between the maturity level of the two at the same age. Anyone who cannot spot that glaring deficiency on JT's part is blind.


Sounds like blind support for Harper et al.

Having watched the rise of Harper as a hero of the right, defender of corporate interests, and saviour of the beleaguered Christian conservatives since he crawled out from under his rock in Calgary, I can say that JT certainly reflects the interests of the average Canadian far better than Harper ever did already, and he can only improve as he matures.

I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about another Trudeau at the Liberal helm, but given that they're not going to get any votes from Alberta anyway, this may play very well for them in the rest of Canada.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I can say that JT certainly reflects the interests of the average Canadian far better than Harper ever did already, and he can only improve as he matures.


This would strike me, then, as an immaturity of reasoning power in the average Canadian. I suspect JT will "improve as he matures" in much the way that a tin of spaghetti improves as it matures, after it has been open for some time.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Sounds like blind support for Harper et al.
> 
> Having watched the rise of Harper as a hero of the right, defender of corporate interests, and saviour of the beleaguered Christian conservatives since he crawled out from under his rock in Calgary, I can say that JT certainly reflects the interests of the average Canadian far better than Harper ever did already, and he can only improve as he matures.
> 
> I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about another Trudeau at the Liberal helm, but given that they're not going to get any votes from Alberta anyway, this may play very well for them in the rest of Canada.


I don't think any of this will mean anything to those swallowing the talking points or just really really hate anything liberal, much less a trudeau.

It doesn't really much matter in the end, the terror of another trudeau having at shot at being the next PM is enough to continually assert his immaturity, which, if one thinks about it for a second is really quite funny.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> There is a vast difference between the maturity level of the two at the same age. Anyone who cannot spot that glaring deficiency on JT's part is blind.


We can't just agree to disagree?


----------



## bryanc

There will certainly be many in Alberta who will be apoplectic if they have to deal with another Prime Minster Trudeau. It'll be worth voting Liberal just to watch their heads implode 

Of course, there will be many people in Alberta who will heave a sigh of relief when Harper gets the boot, and there will doubtless be a number of Trudeau-haters scattered across the rest of the country, but there's no question that the Liberals are sacrificing votes in Alberta in the hope of making gains elsewhere with this choice of leader.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Of course, there will be many people in Alberta who will heave a sigh of relief when Harper gets the boot, and there will doubtless be a number of Trudeau-haters scattered across the rest of the country, but there's no question that the Liberals are sacrificing votes in Alberta in the hope of making gains elsewhere with this choice of leader.


What other choice did the Liberal party really have? 

As a couple of commentators have pointed out, one advantage that Justin Trudeau has is that--like him or hate him--everyone has already formed an opinion on Justin Trudeau. There's no awkward period of introducing the new leader into public perception and hoping they make a good first impression before the attack ads get wide view. The first impression, good or bad, has been made.

Now, it's just a matter of how he conducts himself over the next two years.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> We can't just agree to disagree?


No, Sonal. Accepting JT assures you will be cast into Hades. Politics allows for no purgatory.


----------



## SINC

Most here seem to be in the same mode they were before the last election when they forecast a Conservative minority at best. They were wrong about that too.


----------



## groovetube

Who cares. This is beyond juvenile. You don't like JT, big surprise.

We get it.

Surely there's something better to talk about than this peeing in the sandbox stuff.

Seriously.


----------



## SINC

It's tough when the truth hurts is it?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> It's tough when the truth hurts is it?


It's pretty clear someone's head is imploding because you won't join the love-in, SINC!


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> It's tough when the truth hurts is it?


I can see that it does, given this bully stuff, but I really couldn't care less right now.

So while you tell everyone how much you hate JT, and how anyone is [insert affliction here] if thy don't agree with you, I think I'll just wait til you're done and something worth debating pops up.

cheerio and have fun.


----------



## SINC

I see, so repeating fact that has history here on ehMac there were many here predicting at best a Conservative majority prior to the last election is now 'bullying'. My gawd, talk about reaching for straws.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Most here seem to be in the same mode they were before the last election when they forecast a Conservative minority at best. They were wrong about that too.


Seems to me that I predicted a Conservative majority with some confidence. I also predicted an Obama victory with confidence, but I'm certainly no Nate Silver. There's a big difference between predicting and wanting. And with the way our electoral system works in this country, there is often a big difference between what a voter might prefer and what they must vote for. Because of FPTP, one often has to 'hold their nose' and vote for the lesser evil, rather than the preferred candidate. This propensity of our system to result in vote splitting dramatically impairs it's ability to serve the democratic process; this has harmed the Conservatives in the past, and it currently harms the Liberals and NDP. Unfortunately, because it (almost by definition) does not harm the governing party (at least not as much as it harms their political opponents), it's not likely to be resolved.

That being said, the Liberal support that evaporated in the last election seems to have done one of two things; gone to the NDP or stayed home. I don't think the NDP will be able to keep all (or even most) of those votes, and an invigorated Liberal party under JT will likely do a better job of getting out the vote in the next election. If I were a Tory, I certainly wouldn't be quivering in fear, but I'd be treating Trudeau as a credible threat.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I don't think the NDP will be able to keep all (or even most) of those votes, and an invigorated Liberal party under JT will likely do a better job of getting out the vote in the next election. If I were a Tory, I certainly wouldn't be quivering in fear, but I'd be treating Trudeau as a credible threat.


Ideally, the Liberals will gain a few seats at the expense of the NDP. I would rather see a buffer zone between the Conservatives and the NDP.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I see, so repeating fact that has history here on ehMac there were many here predicting at best a Conservative majority prior to the last election is now 'bullying'. My gawd, talk about reaching for straws.


no, but announcing that anyone who disagrees with must be blind is.

It even prompted someone else to wonder why someone couldn't simply disagree with you.

Well at least we've established one thing, you really don't like Justin Trudeau. :clap:


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Ideally, the Liberals will gain a few seats at the expense of the NDP. I would rather see a buffer zone between the Conservatives and the NDP.


THIS. 

It is by far and away the most likely scenario. Mulcair is the wrong man for any NDP gains and Trudeau is too weak a leader to make many gains for the Liberals.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> no, but announcing that anyone who disagrees with must be blind is.
> 
> It even prompted someone else to wonder why someone couldn't simply disagree with you.
> 
> Well at least we've established one thing, you really don't like Justin Trudeau. :clap:


Apparently you have difficulty understanding using a figure of speech and bullying.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Seems to me that I predicted a Conservative majority with some confidence. I also predicted an Obama victory with confidence, but I'm certainly no Nate Silver. There's a big difference between predicting and wanting. And with the way our electoral system works in this country, there is often a big difference between what a voter might prefer and what they must vote for. Because of FPTP, one often has to 'hold their nose' and vote for the lesser evil, rather than the preferred candidate. This propensity of our system to result in vote splitting dramatically impairs it's ability to serve the democratic process; this has harmed the Conservatives in the past, and it currently harms the Liberals and NDP. Unfortunately, because it (almost by definition) does not harm the governing party (at least not as much as it harms their political opponents), it's not likely to be resolved.
> 
> That being said, the Liberal support that evaporated in the last election seems to have done one of two things; gone to the NDP or stayed home. I don't think the NDP will be able to keep all (or even most) of those votes, and an invigorated Liberal party under JT will likely do a better job of getting out the vote in the next election. If I were a Tory, I certainly wouldn't be quivering in fear, but I'd be treating Trudeau as a credible threat.


I had hoped the conservatives wouldn't get a majority last time, but the writing was on the wall given Iggy's poor campaign. I think you're right for the next one, Iggy certainly gave voters a reason to either stay at home, vote NDP, or hold their nose and vote for Harper. Depending on how Trudeau performs over the next 2 years, we could see a different story, not sure what the result would be, but seeing Harper educed to a minority at least would be a win for me.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Apparently you have dificulty understanding using a figure of speech and bullying.


Looks like I wasn't the only one.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Looks like I wasn't the only one.


So far you are, insinuating 'blind to truth' is not bullying.


----------



## groovetube

and here we have a good reason why people are losing interest in ehMac.

Now if we're done with 'I know you are, but what am I', and calling people names and announcing you're blind if you don't agree, and can get back to the topic of canadian politics great. 

Here's a headline:

Canadian terrorism plot to attack VIA Rail train foiled: RCMP | News | National Post

Amazing that this occurred on the very day the government rammed in debate on the anti-terrorism bill!


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> So far you are, insinuating 'blind to truth' is not bullying.


I wouldn't call it bullying, per se, but I would call it disrespectful to assume that I am unable to see the 'truth' because I don't agree with you.

In any case... I did a bit of digging to double-check, but last election, I was predicting a Conservative majority from the start. So I fail to see what my prediction of the last election has to do with disrespect for my opinion.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> lol
> 
> so i guess Peter Mackay (the former PC leader) was a "rank amateur" when he said the same thing *immediately* after the Oslo attacks?
> 
> Amazing who you conservatives will throw under the bus to protect your leader!
> 
> But let's say we buy your argument that the error was not *what* he said, but *when* he said it, the larger question becomes if only a "rank amateur" would choose to say that after the bombings,* what kind of a person would choose to immediately politicize the tragic event?* Certainly someone who lacks the necessary moral and ethical compass to lead our country.
> 
> I'll take a "rank amateur" every day of the week over a heartless swine.


MacKay was not and is not a leader in waiting that you can't/don't want to understand the difference just highlights your desire to portray a narrative of your liking.

He didn't, you're wrong. What Harper said came 2 days after the bombings as I have already pointed out to you, the first thing he did was express his condolences and solidarity with the people of Boston. Your "story" is simply, well lets just say factually incorrect.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Depends on how you go about defending against the terrorists. Beating down doors, searching every home, sending cops or soldiers out on the streets in armoured vehicles with 10+ round per second machine guns is giving the terrorists exactly what they want: Proof that the powers that be are interested only in preserving that power.
> 
> In particular overriding basic human rights such as the right to a fair trial are exactly the reasons that those protecting us from terrorism are a far greater threat than any terrorist.





Sonal said:


> A friend of mine, who lives near Cambridge MA, read several perspectives on the lockdown and feels that this one is the most true.
> 
> 0xabad1dea - Thoughts on the Boston Lockdown from the edge


Sonal that completely reflects the thoughts of the people the CBC interviewed in Boston the day the man hunt was going on.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> the first thing he did was express his condolences and solidarity with the people of Boston.


This is also the first thing JT did. He was also very clear that dealing with the immediate crisis and apprehending the perpetrators was obviously the top priority. Eventually, he suggested it's worth thinking about the root causes of these sorts of things in the hope that understanding them might make society safer. I can see why Harper would object to that last point, as he's very consistently opposed to developing understanding, or any other remotely academic pursuit, as new knowledge might conflict with his ideological agenda. Reality has a well-known leftist bias, and it's a bad idea to think about things or find the causes of problems; better to just let King Harper do what he wants.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> This is also the first thing JT did. He was also very clear that dealing with the immediate crisis and apprehending the perpetrators was obviously the top priority. Eventually, he suggested it's worth thinking about the root causes of these sorts of things in the hope that understanding them might make society safer. I can see why Harper would object to that last point, as he's very consistently opposed to developing understanding, or any other remotely academic pursuit, as new knowledge might conflict with his ideological agenda. Reality has a well-known leftist bias, and it's a bad idea to think about things or find the causes of problems; better to just let King Harper do what he wants.


His statement was fluid and did not follow from a further question, so what he said was part of his first statement not something separate. As has been pointed out there are numerous other columnists and political commentators who agree that Trudeau's statement displayed a lack of political experience or even instinct.

You want to make excuses for the guy? Go ahead but it was plain to see and hear for many, many people.

I fear the day that he is PM and he has to be on the international stage he is going to be as a big a bumbler as George Bush and an embarrassment.

As for the rest of your comment, pure bunk.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> He didn't, you're wrong. What Harper said came 2 days after the bombings as I have already pointed out to you, the first thing he did was express his condolences and solidarity with the people of Boston. Your "story" is simply, well lets just say factually incorrect.


lol

oh, it was a *WHOLE 2 DAYS* after!!! man, that's totally different. I'm sure the victims and the city of Boston were totally over it and happy to see Canada's PM politicizing it for his own political gain.

keep spinning. i'm sure someone out there will buy it.


----------



## groovetube

numerous columnists?

Well that really seals it now doesn't it!


----------



## iMouse

Sure, pundits rule.

No need to vote any longer.

Now back to Tweedledum and the other one.


----------



## MacDoc

Dutch disease - the end game

Back to hewers of oil.....well done Harpo....*not*. 



> *Canada taking a back seat in global recovery, says S&P*
> DAVID BERMAN
> The Globe and Mail
> Published Monday, Apr. 22 2013, 7:00 PM EDT
> Last updated Monday, Apr. 22 2013, 7:00 PM EDT


Canada taking a back seat in global recovery, says S&P - The Globe and Mail

Meanwhile in a well run economy that 

a) does not give it's oil away
b) values and supports manufacturing



> Growth in Norwegian manufacturing
> 
> Production in manufacturing increased by 1.7 per cent from the second to the third quarter of 2012, according to fresh figures from Statistics Norway.
> 
> Industries such as machinery and equipment, and ships, boats and oil platforms had a continued production growth in this period.
> 
> This can be related to a strong increase in new orders in the second quarter for these industries, and a significant growth in employment during the third quarter.
> 
> The output within machinery and equipment, and ships, boats and oil platforms was thus at a record high level in the third quarter of 2012, with a volume growth of over 80 per cent since 2005. Furthermore, production in food products also went up by 2.0 per cent from the second to the third quarter of 2012.
> 
> *There was a 5.5 per cent increase in Norwegian manufacturing output from August 2011 to August 2012, according to working-day adjusted figures.* Industrial production in the euro area decreased by 2.9 per cent in the same period, according to figures published by Eurostat.


5.5% increase for Norway despite Europe's woes...and then there are the unemployment figures



> Norway Unemployment Rate - Trading Economics
> Norway Unemployment Rate - Cached
> Unemployment Rate in Norway is reported by the Statistics Norway.* Historically, from 1997 until 2013, Norway Unemployment Rate averaged 3.44 Percent *...
> Norway unemployment seen falling in 2013, 2014 labour agency
> News | Business News | Current News | Latest World News | Current World News | Pakistan News › Business › Industries & Sectors - Cached
> 
> 
> Feb 5, 2013 – OSLO:* Norway's unemployment rate will fall to 2.4 percent in 2013 and 2.2 percent in 2014* due to high consumer consumption and a ...


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I had hoped the conservatives wouldn't get a majority last time, but the writing was on the wall given Iggy's poor campaign. I think you're right for the next one, Iggy certainly gave voters a reason to either stay at home, vote NDP, or hold their nose and vote for Harper. Depending on how Trudeau performs over the next 2 years, we could see a different story, not sure what the result would be, but seeing Harper educed to a minority at least would be a win for me.


Let's not forget the continual breaking of election laws by the Conservatives in the last election and the election before that. Voter suppression charges, resignations because money was accepted illegally and once again money was over spent. 

So far those are the Regressive Conservatives offenses we know of from the last two elections. In free and fair elections will the majority hold?


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Dutch disease - the end game


Incredible to hear you arguing for a weak dollar to spur manufacturing. A strong dollar is a side effect of strong exports, not one type of export in particular. 



MacDoc said:


> Canada taking a back seat in global recovery, says S&P - The Globe and Mail


Having fared so well in recent years, it will not experience the same kind of growth as the laggards catch up.



MacDoc said:


> Meanwhile in a well run economy that
> 
> a) does not give it's oil away
> b) values and supports manufacturing
> 
> 5.5% increase for Norway despite Europe's woes...and then there are the unemployment figures


Norway is ismply sitting on an oil bubble--it has almost nothing else. Interesting how selective you are with that economic report. Fast forward eight months:

Analysis: Sitting on too much money, Norway risks going off course | Reuters



> On the surface, Norway is the envy of the world: growth is strong, per capita GDP has exceeded $100,000 and the nation sits on a $700 billion rainy day cash reserve, or $140,000 per man, woman and child.
> 
> But it may just be too much money as Norwegians, more keen on leisure and family life are working less and less.
> 
> Immigration is not filling the gap in the skilled part of the workforce, so *productivity is stagnating, wages are surging and firms are pricing themselves out of their own market.*
> 
> .....
> 
> Wage costs are up 63 percent since 2000, about six times more than in Germany or Sweden, while the employment rate, adjusted for part time work, is 61 percent, below rates anywhere in the Nordics and even below Greece, the central bank says.
> 
> Still, unemployment is a barely visible 3 percent *as more prefer part time work.*
> 
> . . . .
> 
> The government recently warned that unless working hours are increased by 10 percent over time, the state will eventually start eating into its savings. The central bank also warned that the welfare model is simply encouraging people to leave the labor market.


The booming manufacturing sector seems to have gone bust. Do you suppose it may be "Dutch Disease?"



> Kvaerner (KVAER.OL), which builds heavy equipment like oil platforms, recently lost a key contract from state-controlled Statoil (STL.OL) to Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (042660.KS) because it was too expensive. It was a just the latest of many setbacks for the firm.
> 
> "The Norwegian cost level is our challenge," Jan Arve Haugan, its chief executive said. "High (quality) cannot outweigh that price difference," he said, adding its prices are 7-15 percent higher than its competitors'.
> 
> Norwegian Air Shuttle (NWC.OL) has threatened to move aircraft to Thailand and operate to Europe with an Asian crew because it says it can't afford the Nordic costs.





> *With a budget surplus worth 12 percent of GDP, Norway can afford just about anything now but unless it scales down benefits like neighbor Sweden did in the 1990s, that surplus will melt away.*


----------



## Sonal

Speaker Andrew Scheer’s ruling yields small victory for MPs’ freedom of speech. | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

That's nice!


----------



## i-rui

Experimental lakes research area to remain open this year: Ontario

looks like the Ontario Liberals are stepping up to correct the Federal Conservatives mistake.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Experimental lakes research area to remain open this year: Ontario
> 
> looks like the Ontario Liberals are stepping up to correct the Federal Conservatives mistake.


Looks like the feds were right--this should be handled by the provinces, who have now assumed their responsibility.


----------



## eMacMan

JT has taken an interesting tack in responding to the Harpolites ads.

Good approach in that he is stepping up to the plate and owning the ad, contrasted to the cowardly, fear-mongering, but 'Harpo is not really responsible for it' approach of the Cons.

Be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Justin Trudeau -- Channel Change - YouTube


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> JT has taken an interesting tack in responding to the Harpolites ads.


Ouch, that's weak sauce! He doesn't have the delivery to pull it off. If anything he's coming off more wooden than before.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Looks like the feds were right--this should be handled by the provinces, who have now assumed their responsibility.


Canada's fresh water research is Ontario's responsibility?

this is just typical conservative downloading of responsibility.

why not make it municipal?


----------



## bryanc

remember who you're talking to; MF would like to see research funded by individuals (or corporations, which are apparently the same thing). Governments shouldn't be funding frivolous stuff like science with his tax dollars.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Canada's fresh water research is Ontario's responsibility?
> 
> this is just typical conservative downloading of responsibility.
> 
> why not make it municipal?


Everyone in the world loves fresh water, right? Why not call it the world's responsibility and bill the UN?


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> Canada's fresh water research is Ontario's responsibility?
> 
> this is just typical conservative downloading of responsibility.
> 
> why not make it municipal?





bryanc said:


> remember who you're talking to; MF would like to see research funded by individuals (or corporations, which are apparently the same thing). Governments shouldn't be funding frivolous stuff like science with his tax dollars.


Seems to be missed by the taxation whiner is there is only one taxpayer.

Who's pot or budget it comes out of is beside the point. The Fresh water research centre is better supported by all Canadians than the residents of one province IMO.

The current Federal Government are just lazy bums who would much rather anyone and everyone else do their duties. They just want to collect their pay for llollygagging and handing out largess to the oil patch and other Conservative ridings.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Who's pot or budget it comes out of is beside the point.


Not at all. The more local the program, the easier it is to crush when necessary.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Seems to be missed by the taxation whiner is there is only one taxpayer.
> 
> Who's pot or budget it comes out of is beside the point. The Fresh water research centre is better supported by all Canadians than the residents of one province IMO.
> 
> The current Federal Government are just lazy bums who would much rather anyone and everyone else do their duties. They just want to collect their pay for llollygagging and handing out largess to the oil patch and other Conservative ridings.


They haven't seemed to have figured out that the taxpayer has one wallet. Besides, the cons need the money for more adscam ads. Almost 600 million probably isn't enough.


----------



## groovetube

Tories prepare mass-mail attack ads as Trudeau takes to halls of Degrassi High | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post



> A “classroom” at Degrassi High served as the setting for Justin Trudeau’s first national advertisements, which aired Wednesday just as the Conservatives were planning another attack on the new Liberal leader — this time using taxpayer dollars.


It's hard ti imagine some who are clapping their hands about saving some money in some items, only to squander untold amounts of money for their own purposes.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ah this explains the Conservative freak out lately -
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p29fgva3gb8v3d7/HD-CP Leadership Attributes April 23.pdf


----------



## groovetube

I hope they continue with their bully tactics, as they likely will since that's pretty much their playbook, because it'll just decimate them further.

I think Canadians are getting tired of their antics, and the 'freakouts' will only continue to make them pull stunts that will further erode their support. 

That, and of course their record is starting to look worse, and worse. Wait until more and more Canadians start realizing the kind of money they've been wasting, starting with the nearly 600 million in 'adscam' money.

I noticed a lot of headlines yesterday about how the cons are using taxpayer money to send out a huge mail campaign about Trudeau. While I'm sure we'll hear all about how this is 'normal' for parties, they all do, and if you only knew how Ottawa works blah blah, this really just isn't going to sit well with Canadians who are still out of work, being chased down by EI, watching this government spend like thieves.

I think we're watching a government that is in a bit of a bind now that they've spent us silly, and will need to go into the next election with bare cupboards. They were banking on the economy roaring back, but despite their assertion that things like massive corp tax cuts and get cuts etc. will fix everything, it looks like that just was a pile of crap handed to us just as many had predicted.

Someone is going to have to pay for all this spending at some point, and we know it'll be the taxpayer...


----------



## bryanc

BigDL said:


> The current Federal Government are just lazy bums who would much rather anyone and everyone else do their duties. They just want to collect their pay for llollygagging and handing out largess to the oil patch and other Conservative ridings.


The cuts to research in Canada, with the experimental lakes cut being a good example, has nothing to do with laziness, and even less to do with saving money (it costs more to shut them down than to keep them open). This is part of a concerted campaign the Harper government has been conducting since they got their majority to reduce, or ideally eliminate scientific research that generates evidence that their policies are misguided. Because their policies are ideologically driven, when they conflict with reality, the Conservatives will ignore reality and soldier on. Whenever possible, they've done whatever they can to prevent Canadians from getting good information about reality, so they can maintain their make-believe bubble where their policies make sense.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> The cuts to research in Canada, with the experimental lakes cut being a good example, has nothing to do with laziness, and even less to do with saving money (it costs more to shut them down than to keep them open).


For the first year.


----------



## bryanc

And then it will cost the next government 10x as much to re-open them (which would still be a bargain, given the value of the research done there). Keeping the experimental lakes open is a no-brainer, which is why the province is stepping in to pick up the Federal Government's mess.

But your point about research benefiting the whole world is a good one. If we had a world government, that would be the jurisdiction in which research funding would be best managed, as scientific research benefits humanity rather than single countries, provinces, or municipalities. However, until then, research will be funded primarily by national governments.

Canada spends far less (proportionately) of our GDP on research than other OECD countries, and has been cutting these investments consistently over the past few decades. While we've been managing to maintain our hard-earned international reputation for science and engineering despite these cuts, we've now got to the point where there is no fat left to trim. Worse, we're clearly facing an anti-science federal government that is perfectly happy to permanently damage the intellectual and research capacity of the country.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> And then it will cost the next government 10x as much to re-open them (which would still be a bargain, given the value of the research done there). Keeping the experimental lakes open is a no-brainer, which is why the province is stepping in to pick up the Federal Government's mess.
> 
> But your point about research benefiting the whole world is a good one. If we had a world government, that would be the jurisdiction in which research funding would be best managed, as scientific research benefits humanity rather than single countries, provinces, or municipalities. However, until then, research will be funded primarily by national governments.
> 
> Canada spends far less (proportionately) of our GDP on research than other OECD countries, and has been cutting these investments consistently over the past few decades. While we've been managing to maintain our hard-earned international reputation for science and engineering despite these cuts, we've now got to the point where there is no fat left to trim. Worse, we're clearly facing an anti-science federal government that is perfectly happy to permanently damage the intellectual and research capacity of the country.


Follow the waste progression. Small towns, counties and MDs in the 10-100s thousands; cities in the Millions; Provinces 10s of Millions to Billions; Nations Billions to 10s of Billions (except the USA, Trillions); World Government 10s to 100s of Trillions.

No, a world government is an extremely bad idea, even though the US and the EU have put themselves on a path of self destruction to make that possible.

Local governments as bad as they sometimes are, are the most responsive and most efficient of the bunch.


----------



## eMacMan

> A bill that would revive some provisions of Canada's Anti-terrorism Act passed in the House of Commons Wednesday night.
> 
> 
> The Liberals joined the Conservatives to pass the bill — known as S-7, the combating terrorism act — by a vote of 183 to 93. It would bring back two central provisions that were originally instituted by the Jean Chrétien government after the Sept. 11 attacks in New York in 2001 but were "sunsetted" after a five-year period.
> 
> 
> One allowed for "preventive detention," meaning someone can be held without charge for up to three days just on suspicion of being involved in terrorism. *The person can then be bound by certain probationary conditions for up to a year, and if he or she refuses the conditions,  can be jailed for 12 months.*
> 
> 
> The second provides for an "investigative hearing" in which someone suspected of having knowledge of a terrorist act can be forced to answer questions. The objective is not to prosecute the person for a criminal offence, but merely to gather information.
> 
> 
> 
> *If he or she refuses, that person can be imprisoned for up to 12 months.* When the Harper government, during its first term, tried to bring back the terrorism measures in 2007, the Liberals opposed the move. Now, however, the government has Liberal support and only the official Opposition, the NDP, is protesting the bill.


Note: Passed on the basis of what is playing out to be a false flag in Boston. Up to a year in jail for being a suspect, with no supporting evidence required! How is this not a violation of the Canada's of rights??? 

Why would the Cons support such a travesty????? For that matter why would the Liberals????


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> ...on the basis of what is playing out to be a false flag in Boston...


 Is there a conspiracy theory you _don't_ believe?


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> Is there a conspiracy theory you _don't_ believe?


Lots of them. However in this case. One suspect was run down by a police SUV. First they claimed it was his brother then admitted the same escaped on foot not by stealing one of their SUVs. After being run down the elder brother was gunned down. Seems like overkill to me.

It seems the younger brother was also dead meat until the FBI found out their communications were being broadcast live on the internet. That clip makes for very interesting listening.

Thing is if these guys were really suspects in a bombing the FBI would very much want them taken alive. 

Also have a lot of trouble with neither of their backpacks matching the one in which the bomb was stored, but hey if you don't find the idea of storm troopers invading your home a lot scarier than any terrorist attack, by all means buy the lame stream out put.

My point is that the Bill of Rights is there because politicians and the population in general tend to over-react during a real or perceived crisis. The very time when it is most important to defend these rights is when the pressure is greatest to bypass them.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> And then it will cost the next government 10x as much to re-open them...


When I said closed, I meant CLOSED.


----------



## MacDoc

Harpo knows no shame....




> Government House leader Peter Van Loan said his party was making no apology for organizing a Parliament-funded mail-out to warn voters away from Trudeau.
> “It’s an important obligation for us to communicate with Canadians,” Van Loan told reporters. “The importance of experience and leadership are actually of significance to Canadians. . . . So it’s entirely appropriate for Canadians to be informed about those contrasting aspects of leadership that they have to deal with.”
> 
> Liberal House leader Dominic LeBlanc disagreed.
> *“We don’t think Canadians are interested in having their tax dollars fund (Prime Minister Stephen) Harper’s negative campaigning,”*
> LeBlanc said.


Tax funded political mailers!!!!???? ..... even Kafka might blanch...

Escalating ad war around Justin Trudeau drowns out freedom-of-speech debate in Parliament | Toronto Star


----------



## Sonal

I'm pretty sure most Canadians already know about Justin Trudeau's political experience.... it's not like the media's kept quiet about him for years or anything.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> When I said closed, I meant CLOSED.


Of course you did, because like Harper, you don't want to know when reality conflicts with your ideology. However, the majority of Canadians will likely continue to approve of doing research and using those findings to guide policy decisions. Therefore, given the small operating costs and enormous research value of the experimental lakes research area, it is a near-certainty that it will be funded by future reality-based governments.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> I'm pretty sure most Canadians already know about Justin Trudeau's political experience.... it's not like the media's kept quiet about him for years or anything.


Indeed, the fact that he *hasn't* been contaminated by decades in parliament is likely viewed as a feature my many voters.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Indeed, the fact that he *hasn't* been contaminated by decades in parliament is likely viewed as a feature my many voters.


Well, not me... I do think political experience counts. (Which is a big part of why I don't buy the idea that business experience alone necessarily qualifies anyone for government.)

Though despite this, I like Trudeau as a candidate.


----------



## bryanc

Having been raised in a political family probably ought to count for something, but I also agree that his inexperience, on the whole, counts against him. However, it may mean that he is not yet so cynical and compromised that it will be impossible for him to take the high road. If he can maintain (at least the appearance of) some integrity and good intent, I think he'll be a magnet for disaffected NDP voters who miss Jack Layton (like me), and he may even pick up some of the conservatives who are sick of Dear Leader's autocratic style.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> Having been raised in a political family probably ought to count for something, but I also agree that his inexperience, on the whole, counts against him. However, it may mean that he is not yet so cynical and compromised that it will be impossible for him to take the high road. If he can maintain (at least the appearance of) some integrity and good intent, I think he'll be a magnet for disaffected NDP voters who miss Jack Layton (like me), and he may even pick up some of the conservatives who are sick of Dear Leader's autocratic style.


Jack Layton had considerable experience in Toronto council before he went Federal.

That said, a lot of what Trudeau says reflects Layton's optimism. I rather liked his response to Harper's attack ad.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> Jack Layton had considerable experience in Toronto council before he went Federal.


Yes, of course you're right; I wasn't suggesting that Trudeau has the sort of experience that Layton had, just that Trudeau appears to have the same sort of integrity, courage, and (as you say) optimism that Layton had.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Of course you did, because like Harper, you don't want to know when reality conflicts with your ideology.


I have no ideology that conflicts with lake science. I do know that we can't continue to fund everything that's currently being funded.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Jack Layton had considerable experience in Toronto council before he went Federal.
> 
> That said, a lot of what Trudeau says reflects Layton's optimism. I rather liked his response to Harper's attack ad.


Optimism based on nothing but a cheery demeanour is scarcely an asset.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I do know that we can't continue to fund everything that's currently being funded.


On the contrary, we could easily fund all the science that is currently being funded and far more. NSERC's budget is trivial in the context of the whole budget; it could be tripled without making a significant difference to issues like the deficit. But research, especially at the experimental lakes site, has been producing more and more evidence that conflicts with the Harper agenda, and that's why it was cut.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> On the contrary, we could easily fund all the science that is currently being funded and far more. NSERC's budget is trivial in the context of the whole budget; it could be tripled without making a significant difference to issues like the deficit. But research, especially at the experimental lakes site, has been producing more and more evidence that conflicts with the Harper agenda, and that's why it was cut.


If you believed, as I do, that government is already spending twice as much as it should, then you would have a different idea of what can be afforded. It all depends on how willing you are to stick your hands into someone else's pocket to fund your priorities.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Optimism based on nothing but a cheery demeanour is scarcely an asset.


If it helps the Liberal party successfully fundraise and/or get elected, I'd say that they'd see it as an asset.


----------



## BigDL

*Broken News*

No time for sociology In response to Our Glorious Leader's comment regarding "not a time for sociology."

Pierre Poilievre, MP and major spokesperson for Our Glorious Leader has just advised that the root cause of terrorism.

Mr. Poilievre, was asked by Evan Soloman the host of CBC Newsworld's Power and Politics, "what is the root cause of terrorism?" Mr. Poilievre answered the root cause of terrorism is terrorist.

Yes folks that's correct Mr. Poilievre answered the question not only once but twice that the root cause of terrorism is terrorists.

It is little wonder that Our Glorious Leader is puzzled why Mr. Trudeau would wonder about the root cause of a terrorism attack or a crazies attack on the puplic.

We now have a Government with decisive answers to complicated issues a-la-Shurb logic.

Film at 11 for now will have to rely on rosiebarton on twitter "Poilievre: "the root cause of terrorism, is terrorists" #pnp "


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Tories prepare mass-mail attack ads as Trudeau takes to halls of Degrassi High | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> It's hard ti imagine some who are clapping their hands about saving some money in some items, only to squander untold amounts of money for their own purposes.





MacDoc said:


> Harpo knows no shame....
> 
> Tax funded political mailers!!!!???? ..... even Kafka might blanch...
> 
> Escalating ad war around Justin Trudeau drowns out freedom-of-speech debate in Parliament | Toronto Star


This is nothing new, it has been going on for at least a decade by all parties. 

I receive 10%ers from my NDP Member of Parliament Nicole Turmel denouncing Harper all the time. 

It seems it is only an unforgivable expense of tax payers dollars when it is the government doing it denouncing the "golden boy" JT and all bets are off when it is the Opposition spending tax payers dollars doing exactly the same thing denouncing Harper.

Hypocrisy in the extreme to say the least.


----------



## groovetube

There may be a little difference between an opposition party's mailer that criticizes the government's position on something as well as other information, and a straight up attack print ad.

But I know there would be this justification coming without the whole story here.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> There may be a little difference between an opposition party's mailer that criticizes the government's position on something as well as other information, and a straight up attack print ad.
> 
> But I know there would be this justification coming without the whole story here.


Have you received the 10%ers sent to me? No I think not. 

They are straight up denunciations of Harper but the content is not even relevant. What is relevant is that *ALL* MPs have a budget for 10%ers and attacking ones opponent using that budget is nothing new... except that now that they are being used against the golden boy it is a travesty.

Pure hypocrisy.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> If it *helps the Liberal party successfully fundraise *and/or get elected, I'd say that they'd see it as an asset.


That is exactly why JT was advocated by the party leadership as the best candidate. Not because of his skills or policies or political acumen...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Have you received the 10%ers sent to me? No I think not.
> 
> They are straight up denunciations of Harper but the content is not even relevant. What is relevant is that *ALL* MPs have a budget for 10%ers and attacking ones opponent using that budget is nothing new... except that now that they are being used against the golden boy it is a travesty.
> 
> Pure hypocrisy.


The content isn't relevant? Who says? You?

BS.

The content is absolutely relevant. This isn't so much a 'this is illegal' thing, but one in poor taste.

However if you're a true conservative supporter, you may not see it that way.

I'm guessing a lot Canadians are going to disagree with you. Harper and co. may well be within the rules to do such a thing, but it's about optics.

But I say, keep doing the things that don't look good!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> The content isn't relevant? Who says? You?
> 
> BS.
> 
> The content is absolutely relevant. This isn't so much a 'this is illegal' thing, but one in poor taste.
> 
> However if you're a true conservative supporter, you may not see it that way.
> 
> I'm guessing a lot Canadians are going to disagree with you. Harper and co. may well be within the rules to do such a thing, but it's about optics.
> 
> But I say, keep doing the things that don't look good!


I agree it is in poor taste and so do some Con MPs. I know of a few who are completely against attack ads in general and refuse to participate in the the 10%er program.

The content is irrelevant to the extent that so long as it fits within the rules of Parliament it is fair game. 

Like I told you, I receive 10%ers filled with vitriol toward Harper from my NDP MP, this doesn't seem to be relevant to you because it suits your political affiliations, but the rules apply equally to everyone. 

If you want to take exception to these 10%ers that is your choice but you should be aware that all parties do it and it is only because the golden boy is being attacked that there is the current outrage...

Again pure hypocrisy.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Yes folks that's correct Mr. Poilievre answered the question not only once but twice that the root cause of terrorism is terrorists.


I hope you got it the second time. He is correct.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I agree it is in poor taste and so do some Con MPs. I know of a few who are completely against attack ads in general and refuse to participate in the the 10%er program.
> 
> The content is irrelevant to the extent that so long as it fits within the rules of Parliament it is fair game.
> 
> Like I told you, I receive 10%ers filled with vitriol toward Harper from my NDP MP, this doesn't seem to be relevant to you because it suits your political affiliations, but the rules apply equally to everyone.
> 
> If you want to take exception to these 10%ers that is your choice but you should be aware that all parties do it and it is only because the golden boy is being attacked that there is the current outrage...
> 
> Again pure hypocrisy.


not so.

I'd like to see an example of the ndp attack ad mailer. If so, it also, is in poor taste.

I think there's a big difference between a mailer that is a pamphlet of information, whether it's mostly criticisms of the government or opposition parties actions etc., and an actual 'ad'.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Like I told you, I receive 10%ers filled with vitriol toward Harper from my NDP MP, this doesn't seem to be relevant to you because it suits your political affiliations, but the rules apply equally to everyone.


Yes, the ones I receive were from my Liberal MP, with the same sort of attacks and vitriol. They even had inane bogus polls in which I could choose between:

* Yes, I want Harper to waste money on military expenditures.
* No, I favour Liberal policies that support the elderly and children.

I could then mail it back to them at public expense.

No different.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> not so.
> 
> I'd like to see an example of the ndp attack ad mailer. If so, it also, is in poor taste.
> 
> I think there's a big difference between a mailer that is a pamphlet of information, whether it's mostly criticisms of the government or opposition parties actions etc., and an actual 'ad'.


Yes so.

If it fits within the rules it is fair game. The Cons did exactly the same thing with Dion and Ignatieff... Again nothing new except that the Golden Boy is now the subject.

Do you really think I keep the crap coming from my NDP MP so that I can scan it and post it here? This stuff flies under the radar.

It is only because the Golden Boy is involved that it gains any traction.

Again if Parliament accepts the 10%er as being within the rules it is a valid expense.

You may not like it and personally I am not in favour of the 10%ers either, but there you have it, there is nothing going on in terms of spending tax payers dollars that the Cons are doing that the other parties aren't doing as well. 

But your post and MacDoc's and some of the media are trying to portray this as being something new, unusual and illegitimate which it most definitely is not.

It is just business as usual in the political arena.


----------



## groovetube

no, I din't say it was anything necessarily new, and I never suggested it wasn't within the rules.

Read what I said. It's the optics of what they're doing.

I'm all for exposing any party engaging in this sort of thing. I have not seen another party's mailer being an actual attack ad.


----------



## BigDL

*Broken News or is that Breaking News*

...  see promised VIDEO HERE of 'root cause of terrorism' ...

Twitter's reaction to "The root cause of terrorism is terrorists."



CBCNews said:


> Just hours after the PM advised against "committing sociology' by considering the root causes of terrorism, Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre's came up with an even more bumpersticker-ready position, telling his co-panelists on tonight's edition of Power and Politics that 'the root cause of terrorism is terrorists.'
> 
> And with that, a meme was born.





BigDL said:


> No time for sociology In response to Our Glorious Leader's comment regarding "not a time for sociology."
> 
> Pierre Poilievre, MP and major spokesperson for Our Glorious Leader has just advised that the root cause of terrorism.
> 
> Mr. Poilievre, was asked by Evan Soloman the host of CBC Newsworld's Power and Politics, "what is the root cause of terrorism?" Mr. Poilievre answered the root cause of terrorism is terrorist.
> 
> Yes folks that's correct Mr. Poilievre answered the question not only once but twice that the root cause of terrorism is terrorists.
> 
> It is little wonder that Our Glorious Leader is puzzled why Mr. Trudeau would wonder about the root cause of a terrorism attack or a crazies attack on the puplic.
> 
> We now have a Government with decisive answers to complicated issues a-la-Shurb logic.
> 
> Film at 11 for now will have to rely on rosiebarton on twitter "Poilievre: "the root cause of terrorism, is terrorists" #pnp "


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> no, I din't say it was anything necessarily new, and I never suggested it wasn't within the rules.
> 
> Read what I said. It's the optics of what they're doing.
> 
> I'm all for exposing any party engaging in this sort of thing. *I have not seen another party's mailer being an actual attack ad*.


Like I said if it isn't the Golden Boy it has flown under the radar.

So what exactly is your complaint if it isn't anything new and is within the rules?

You just don't like it because it is directed against JT and it is the current cause celeb?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> ...  see promised VIDEO HERE of 'root cause of terrorism' ...
> 
> Twitter's reaction to "The root cause of terrorism is terrorists."


Did you forget you already posted this once today?

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-801.html#post1270049


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Did you forget you already posted this once today?
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-801.html#post1270049


Very strange.... he may be having a psychotic break and feels the need to quote himself in the 3rd person.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Did you forget you already posted this once today?
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-801.html#post1270049


No! Updated the original post with a link to the "PROMISED FILM AT 11" in the original post.

It also keeps the original link of Our Glorious Leader comments with regard to not wanting empirical facts with his comment... "no time for sociology."

The above comments along with Joe Oliver's laughable comments slagging a world class climate scientist in recent days demonstrates the regressive Conservatives only want to deal with ideology, an ideology they want to becomes the "Big Lie." 

Don't want facts interrupting the ripping good yarns spun by those regressive Conservatives.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> It also keeps the original link of Our Glorious Leader comments


I see you are still obsessed with that guy over in North Korea as well.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> No! Updated the original post with a link to the "PROMISED FILM AT 11" in the original post.
> 
> It also keeps the original link of *Our Glorious Leader comments with regard to not wanting empirical facts with his comment... "no time for sociology."*
> 
> The above comments along with Joe Oliver's laughable comments slagging a world class climate scientist in recent days demonstrates the regressive Conservatives only want to deal with ideology, an ideology they want to becomes the "Big Lie."
> 
> *Don't want facts interrupting the ripping good yarns* spun by those regressive Conservatives.


Uh... actually the PM never said this... Pierre Poilievre said it. 

But I have come to expect that your posts here "don't want facts interrupting the ripping good yarns".


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Did you forget you already posted this once today?
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-801.html#post1270049


SINC, some other people have "tweeted" about it since the original post and that makes it serious!


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I see you are still obsessed with that guy over in North Korea as well.


Sinc quit slagging Canada's Prime Minister by referring to him as some guy in North Korea, please. You continually do this. Please don't blame me for comments opined by yourself. Thank you.


----------



## Macfury

YO! That's telling you SINC!


----------



## SINC

The poor chap is confused about those two terms, but not me. I clearly know and understand that there is no such position in this country.


----------



## groovetube

why do things always need to get dragged to the bottom of the barrel here. Can we not even try... to stay somewhat near the topic? Is it that hard?


----------



## SINC

No, it's easy until we get derailed by the N Korean leader bit.


----------



## groovetube

I'm not sure why you would get so upset about something small like that. It isn't as if you had choice names for leaders of the parties you didn't like.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> why do things always need to get dragged to the bottom of the barrel here. Can we not even try... to stay somewhat near the topic? Is it that hard?


gt you know when supporters of this regressive Conservative Government's can't defend the foolish policies and statements from very top of the Party, well the only tactic, *change the channel.*

This regressive Conservative Government wants to stifle debate. This regressive Conservative Government wants to eliminate facts. This regressive Conservative Government wants one message track, and at the taxpayer expense. This regressive Conservative Government wants to attack, attack and attack.

They shouldn't be the Government because they only know how to attack and oppose.

In "Member's Statements" they criticize the opposition on how to oppose. They seem to regret not being the opposition. The other day Peter MacKay, in QP, he spoke about the "NDP Government."

This regressive Conservative Government want to ridicule Sociology and reduce the root cause of terrorism is terrorists. A real gut buster that one.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> gt you know when supporters of this regressive Conservative Government's can't defend the foolish policies and statements from very top of the Party, well the only tactic, *change the channel.*
> 
> This regressive Conservative Government wants to stifle debate. This regressive Conservative Government wants to eliminate facts. This regressive Conservative Government wants one message track, and at the taxpayer expense. This regressive Conservative Government wants to attack, attack and attack.
> 
> They shouldn't be the Government because they only know how to attack and oppose.
> 
> In "Member's Statements" they criticize the opposition on how to oppose. They seem to regret not being the opposition. The other day Peter MacKay, in QP, he spoke about the "NDP Government."
> 
> This regressive Conservative Government want to ridicule Sociology and reduce the root cause of terrorism is terrorists. A real gut buster that one.


Now take a deep breath, have a hot toddy and off to bed with you!


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> gt you know when supporters of this regressive Conservative Government's can't defend the foolish policies and statements from very top of the Party, well the only tactic, *change the channel.*
> 
> This regressive Conservative Government wants to stifle debate. This regressive Conservative Government wants to eliminate facts. This regressive Conservative Government wants one message track, and at the taxpayer expense. This regressive Conservative Government wants to attack, attack and attack.
> 
> They shouldn't be the Government because they only know how to attack and oppose.
> 
> In "Member's Statements" they criticize the opposition on how to oppose. They seem to regret not being the opposition. The other day Peter MacKay, in QP, he spoke about the "NDP Government."
> 
> This regressive Conservative Government want to ridicule Sociology and reduce the root cause of terrorism is terrorists. A real gut buster that one.


Oh I've seen this tactic here too often now.

It's a drag. The drive bys, nothing much to add to the topic except to derail. No wonder few want to participate anymore.


----------



## SINC

Time to forget this thread for a bit. I just can't take the childish behaviour of some of the adults with the silly name calling. It cheapens the thread and everyone in it. No wonder ehMac members are leaving.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Time to forget this thread for a bit. I just can't take the childish behaviour of some of the adults with the silly name calling. It cheapens the thread and everyone in it. No wonder ehMac members are leaving.


Agreed. There's little hope, when simple disagreement with shoot-from-the-hip pronouncements is shrilly decried as "going off topic."


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Time to forget this thread for a bit. I just can't take the childish behaviour of some of the adults with the silly name calling. It cheapens the thread and everyone in it. No wonder ehMac members are leaving.


Oh really? Like calling dion 'mr dithers' and fiberals and etc?

All you do here is drive bys without much to add to the actual topic. We were talking about a topic here until you came along here and pontificated without adding to the topic. That's why people think the threat is a drag. We can debate and disagree just fine without someone coming in here and stomping on people just because.

People have had nicknames for politicians since the beginning, including yourself.

And that's just 5 seconds of looking.


----------



## Dr.G.

"I think, though, this is not a time to commit sociology, if I can use an expression," Harper said. "These things are serious threats, global terrorist attacks, people who have agendas of violence that are deep and abiding threats to all the values our society stands for."

"I don't think we want to convey any view to the Canadian public other than our utter condemnation of this kind of violence, contemplation of this violence and our utter determination through our laws and our activities to do everything we can to prevent it and counter it," Harper said.

Harper on terror arrests: Not a time for 'sociology' - Canada - CBC News

Sociologists here at Memorial University have gone into hiding. I was questioned by the RCMP this morning, in that I have done research in sociolinguistics, which is the study of language and the social context on the ways language is used, and the effects of language use on society. Luckily, I was not deemed a threat to Canada.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "I think, though, this is not a time to commit sociology, if I can use an expression," Harper said. "These things are serious threats, global terrorist attacks, people who have agendas of violence that are deep and abiding threats to all the values our society stands for."
> 
> "I don't think we want to convey any view to the Canadian public other than our utter condemnation of this kind of violence, contemplation of this violence and our utter determination through our laws and our activities to do everything we can to prevent it and counter it," Harper said.
> 
> Harper on terror arrests: Not a time for 'sociology' - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Sociologists here at Memorial University have gone into hiding. I was questioned by the RCMP this morning, in that I have done research in sociolinguistics, which is the study of language and the social context on the ways language is used, and the effects of language use on society. Luckily, I was not deemed a threat to Canada.


Phew! that was a close one.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Phew! that was a close one.


Yes, but luckily two of the doxies we bred have been trained by the RCMP to be "sniffer dogs", so they said it was just a routine check of anyone in Canada somehow associated with sociology.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. you are indeed fortunate your profession is Prof not politician because the RCMP are now not able to talk freely to politicians unless prior approval is given by Vic Toews and ultimately OGL. Speaking to politicians including MP's and Senators are verboten to Senior RCM Police Officers.

Scary, the clamp down on discourse, discussion and dialogue.

Senior Mounties told not to meet MPs without prior approval - Politics - CBC News


----------



## chimo

Dr.G. said:


> "I think, though, this is not a time to commit sociology, if I can use an expression," Harper said. "These things are serious threats, global terrorist attacks, people who have agendas of violence that are deep and abiding threats to all the values our society stands for."
> 
> "I don't think we want to convey any view to the Canadian public other than our utter condemnation of this kind of violence, contemplation of this violence and our utter determination through our laws and our activities to do everything we can to prevent it and counter it," Harper said.
> 
> Harper on terror arrests: Not a time for 'sociology' - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Sociologists here at Memorial University have gone into hiding. I was questioned by the RCMP this morning, in that I have done research in sociolinguistics, which is the study of language and the social context on the ways language is used, and the effects of language use on society. Luckily, I was not deemed a threat to Canada.


You're likely on the "Sociology Watch List" now. I'm waiting for them to go after the engineers. Good luck!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Oh really? Like calling dion 'mr dithers' and fiberals and etc?
> 
> All you do here is drive bys without much to add to the actual topic. We were talking about a topic here until you came along here and pontificated without adding to the topic. That's why people think the threat is a drag. We can debate and disagree just fine without someone coming in here and stomping on people just because.
> 
> People have had nicknames for politicians since the beginning, including yourself.
> 
> And that's just 5 seconds of looking.


Sure I called the party fiberals then, Just like some call them regressive conservatives now, but note I referred to their leader as 'Paul Martin', not some communist dictator in North Korea, a term offensive in the extreme and therein lies the difference. But thanks anyway Mr. Thread Cop for your opinion.


----------



## groovetube

It seems YOU are the thread cop, and it's your opinion OGL is offensive (since you like the conservatives) and mr dithers is a not so nice name either. And that just what we remember. You're the one that came in here busting up the topic to thread cop since you didn't like the name not me.

I'm calling hypocrite in this one, sorry.


----------



## eMacMan

I called out BO before he became president when he voted for the Great Bankster Heist. At that time I said that his change would be more of the same. I do wish I had been proven wrong on that one but no such luck.

At this point in time I do have to call out JT for backing S7. Come on! The whole point of a Bill of Rights is to show the way in times of crisis. Voting to abort a key element of the Bill of Rights because someone is pounding the drums of fear is not only wrong, but in both his and Harpers cases it is flirting with treason. More so Harpo as he is the one pounding the drum.

JT had a great chance to show he had more to offer than the Chretien Liberals or the Harpolites. He failed miserably. Those who believe that JT will veer from the current course seemingly have nothing to fear.


----------



## SINC

Since you carry no more authority than your opinion here, there is no need to be sorry. I stand by my opinion that the term being used represents a communist dictator and is offensive in the extreme.


----------



## groovetube

And neither do you. SInce you started the thread cop business here.

How about adding to the topic of Canadian politics, without the hypocritical drive bys since you've shown you like to nickname political leaders in my opinion offensively as well.

We're all adults here, Let's stay on topic. If not, I'll simply wait until the derail is done return when it gets back on topic.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Since you carry no more authority than your opinion here, there is no need to be sorry. I stand by my opinion that the term being used represents a communist dictator and is offensive in the extreme.


You, sir, you are the person connecting the Canadian Prime Minister to the North Korean Leader's dynasty . 

Please, take responsibility for your own actions. 

Please, stop trying to blame others for your actions. 

Please stop bulling to get your own way, once again.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Dr.G. you are indeed fortunate your profession is Prof not politician because the RCMP are now not able to talk freely to politicians unless prior approval is given by Vic Toews and ultimately OGL. Speaking to politicians including MP's and Senators are verboten to Senior RCM Police Officers.
> 
> Scary, the clamp down on discourse, discussion and dialogue.
> 
> Senior Mounties told not to meet MPs without prior approval - Politics - CBC News


Yes, so I have heard.


----------



## Dr.G.

chimo said:


> You're likely on the "Sociology Watch List" now. I'm waiting for them to go after the engineers. Good luck!


I won't be on this list, but I hear that there is a list of psycholinguistics being gathered, along with psychopaths and those who have studied extinct pachyderms.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> I won't be on this list, but I hear that there is a list of psycholinguistics being gathered, along with psychopaths and those who have studied extinct pachyderms.


Do psycholinguistics take psychopaths to psychoruins?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> You, sir, you are the person connecting the Canadian Prime Minister to the North Korean Leader's dynasty .
> 
> Please, take responsibility for your own actions.
> 
> Please, stop trying to blame others for your actions.
> 
> Please stop bulling to get your own way, once again.


Far from bullying, I am protesting using an offensive term for a North Korean dictator to refer to the Canadian Prime Minister. If you want to end the issue, drop the term.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Do psycholinguistics take psychopaths to psychoruins?


:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Far from bullying, I am protesting using an offensive term for a North Korean dictator to refer to the Canadian Prime Minister. If you want to end the issue, drop the term.


Well being Our Intrepid Reporter (OIR) with the Faux styled news, perhaps links with independent reference(s) would be helpful. 

You and one or two others on this board decided to refer to Stephen Harper and liken him to some North Korean Dictator in that family's dynasty. 

You have repeatedly accused me of that infraction. Others on this board have repeatedly demonstrated to you and others that Our Glorious Leader does not refer to any leader in the world, ...well except Stephen Harper as I coined the phrase to refer to him and only him.

While you are at it please define the offensive nature of the word(s) "Our" and/or the word(s) "Glorious" and/or the word(s) "Leader" or indeed the phrase "Our Glorious Leader."

Faux style reporting linking Our Glorious Leader to a North Korean Leader without independent confirmation shall not be accepted dear OlR.

Should you accept this assignment, I mean a reference other than your own contention or perhaps a cohort we all shall be eternally grateful. 

Please demonstrate how Our Glorious Leader refers to anyone other than the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. I made up the phrase to refer to Stephen Harper and only Stephen Harper. 

You contend differently now prove your contention or please be quiet.

You and others should stop slandering Stephen Harper comparing him to a North Korean Leader.


----------



## groovetube

Globe and Mail!!!!How dare you!!!!

Just copy Our Glorious Leader - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

and Prince Charles! My goodness.

Prince Charles branded Blair 'Our Glorious Leader' when he pressured him over Iraq war | Mail Online


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sung to the tune of "I love Jeannie with the light brown hair" famous old radio tune that bugs bunny used somewhere (lots of schticks that boy) :

"Our Glorious Leader with the lego set hair."


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Please demonstrate how Our Glorious Leader refers to anyone other than the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. I made up the phrase to refer to Stephen Harper and only Stephen Harper.
> 
> You contend differently now prove your contention or please be quiet.


Take your pick. It refers not only to the North Korean leader, but Hitler and Dubya Bush among others. Google is your friend and the term was invented long before your claim. Please let me know if you require any more proof, there's pages of it online.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Look you have to admit that lego cut suits him though.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Well being Our Intrepid Reporter (OIR) with the Faux styled news, perhaps links with independent reference(s) would be helpful.
> 
> You and one or two others on this board decided to refer to Stephen Harper and liken him to some North Korean Dictator in that family's dynasty.
> 
> You have repeatedly accused me of that infraction. Others on this board have repeatedly demonstrated to you and others that Our Glorious Leader does not refer to any leader in the world, ...well except Stephen Harper as I coined the phrase to refer to him and only him.
> 
> While you are at it please define the offensive nature of the word(s) "Our" and/or the word(s) "Glorious" and/or the word(s) "Leader" or indeed the phrase "Our Glorious Leader."
> 
> Faux style reporting linking Our Glorious Leader to a North Korean Leader without independent confirmation shall not be accepted dear OlR.
> 
> Should you accept this assignment, I mean a reference other than your own contention or perhaps a cohort we all shall be eternally grateful.
> 
> Please demonstrate how Our Glorious Leader refers to anyone other than the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. I made up the phrase to refer to Stephen Harper and only Stephen Harper.
> 
> You contend differently now prove your contention or please be quiet.
> 
> You and others should stop slandering Stephen Harper comparing him to a North Korean Leader.


Doesn't look like he's going to let it go.

It's ok for them to smear and nickname leaders they don't like, not our glorious leader!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Doesn't look like he's going to let it go.
> 
> It's ok for them to smear and nickname leaders they don't like, not our glorious leader!


No, not when it brings disrespect to the office of the PM with the Hitler reference of the term in particular. And for the record, any claim of "coining the phrase" is bull. It's been around for a long time before he 'borrowed' it.


----------



## groovetube

we're calling Harper Hitler now?

hoo boy. This is getting out of hand. Buh bye.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> we're calling Harper Hitler now?


Indeed, that is what the term insinuates. And note the date of the Urban Dictionary definition below of May 23, 2006 that someone claims 'to have coined'.


----------



## groovetube

Bank of Canada governor needs to boost growth as Flaherty cuts budget | Economy | News | Financial Post



> At 1.5%, Canada’s growth this year will be the slowest among Group of 20 countries outside Europe, according to International Monetary Fund forecasts released April 16.


What? I thought I saw some here boasting about how great we were compared to others. Perhaps the good financial position we -were- in has faded now that OGL's economic policies have had a chance to take effect.



> The bank reiterated last week that higher borrowing costs “will likely be required” in the future as a strengthening U.S. lifts Canada’s outlook, bringing the country’s inflation rate to the 2% target and the economy back to full output in 2015.


Imagine needing to ride the coat tails of Barak Obama!

Oh the irony.


----------



## MacDoc

Herr Harper - if the shoe fits......he's been called a dictator and anti-democratic in a wide range of media.

and the great majority of Canadians view him that way.



> The descent of democracy:
> A country under one man’s thumb
> By Lawrence Martin | Apr 27, 2011 2:25 am | | 0 Comments
> 
> 
> Can we still call this a parliamentary democracy? *Or is it something more akin to a democracy of one?*
> 
> More and more, Stephen Harper’s critics are asking the question. *There is a widespread view among political scientists and constitutional scholars that the prime minister, with his l’etat c’est moi methods, has brought Canadian democracy to new lows.*
> 
> Canadians themselves may be starting to feel that way. Pollster Angus Reid found this week that* 62 per cent of Canadians surveyed described our democracy as being in a state of crisis. For the first time in many elections, democracy is a foremost issue*.


----------



## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> Herr Harper - if the shoe fits......he's been called a dictator and anti-democratic in a wide range of media.
> 
> and the great majority of Canadians view him that way.


yup, even in the globe and mail, and many other places. The indignation is ridiculous.

As you said. If the shoe fits...


----------



## BigDL

I must say I do not claim copyright exclusivity or trademark right to the phrase Our Glorious Leader. I merely was the first person to coin the phrase on this board with regards to Stephen Harper. I did not intend it to reference Hitler, George Bush nor any of the North Korean Kim dynasty.

I meant to reference Stephen Harper the Prime Minister of Canada.

As the google search points out there is no clear reference to any person living or dead, real or fictional. The latest leader of North Korea may or may not have the common title of (Our) Glorious Leader. It is not clear.

Hence forth and forever I shall no longer refer to Stephen Harper the Prime Minister of Canada as Our Glorious Leader.

I find Stephen Harper the Prime Minister of Canada to be more appropriately described truthfully as an Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster (OGL) if you will. 

Therefore and hence forth the use of the phrase Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster or initials "OGL" shall be my descriptive interpretation of the personality and style of the current Prime Minister while in office or in the opposition or in private life...just so you know and can realize I am not calling the man a name, I am, merely describing his character as I see it.

Thank you for your attention. Have the best day you possibly can. Cheers


----------



## CubaMark

Dammit - where's that Like button we used to have? :clap:


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> No, not when it brings disrespect to the office of the PM with the Hitler reference of the term in particular. And for the record, any claim of "coining the phrase" is bull. It's been around for a long time before he 'borrowed' it.


Dam and I get accused of a vivid imagination. I grew up in the aftermath of WWII. I've had the pleasure of meeting Germans who were growing up in pre WWII Germany. Nowhere in all of that extended background did I ever hear the phrase OGL related to the Führer until now. 

Why you would want to equate King Harpo to Das Führer is beyond my ken, but if you think the shoe fits I guess all we can do is to urge the PM to wear it. In any event you are alone in divining that comparison.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Dammit - where's that Like button we used to have? :clap:


It's at Facebook where it belongs.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Why you would want to equate King Harpo to Das Führer is beyond my ken, but if you think the shoe fits I guess all we can do is to urge the PM to wear it. In any event you are alone in divining that comparison.


Try actually reading the definition I posted as an attachment from the Urban Dictionary who explain the reference to Hitler before you accuse me, Bob. Your comment is groundless when you accuse me of making the reference, I didn't.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Dam and I get accused of a vivid imagination. I grew up in the aftermath of WWII. I've had the pleasure of meeting Germans who were growing up in pre WWII Germany. Nowhere in all of that extended background did I ever hear the phrase OGL related to the Führer until now.
> 
> Why you would want to equate King Harpo to Das Führer is beyond my ken, but if you think the shoe fits I guess all we can do is to urge the PM to wear it. In any event you are alone in divining that comparison.


I was kinda wondering the same thing myself. Perhaps the number of reports about the misdeeds of a favorite party has become overwhelming, and the need to totally derail any debate on the -actual- topic of this thread is too much to bear. WHy would anyone act this way in a thread? Bullying, thread copping, and derailing a thread.

Man.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Urban Dictionary: lego hair


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Bullying, thread copping, and derailing a thread.


Yep, you sure do.


----------



## BigDL

A droll yet especially puerile "I know you are but what am I!"


----------



## iMouse

Yep, very 'school-yard' behaviour.


----------



## groovetube

Every once in a while he drops in for a drive by to derail the thread. Doesn't really participate here to add to the topic, but just monitors it to looks for, "infractions" to pounce on.

Bleh.


----------



## SINC

Another nail in the coffin of organized labour?

Appeal court upholds Sask. labour law changes - Saskatchewan - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Another nail in the coffin of organized labour?
> 
> Appeal court upholds Sask. labour law changes - Saskatchewan - CBC News


Excellent progress. Let the _Now Magazine_ crowd raise their little fists and rail on about their Glorious Leader, while serious work is being done for the country.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Try actually reading the definition I posted as an attachment from the Urban Dictionary who explain the reference to Hitler before you accuse me, Bob. Your comment is groundless when you accuse me of making the reference, I didn't.


Don my point is not whether or not you were able to find/create an obscure connection. It was that even those of us who grew up in the shadow of WWII were completely unaware of it. 

Still I am sure all true Harpolites are delighted to have you connecting him with a major leaguer in that manner.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think having essential services is anything new, and hardly the end of organized labour. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> "I think, though, this is not a time to commit sociology, if I can use an expression," Harper said. "These things are serious threats, global terrorist attacks, people who have agendas of violence that are deep and abiding threats to all the values our society stands for."
> 
> "I don't think we want to convey any view to the Canadian public other than our utter condemnation of this kind of violence, contemplation of this violence and our utter determination through our laws and our activities to do everything we can to prevent it and counter it," Harper said.
> 
> Harper on terror arrests: Not a time for 'sociology' - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Sociologists here at Memorial University have gone into hiding. I was questioned by the RCMP this morning, in that I have done research in sociolinguistics, which is the study of language and the social context on the ways language is used, and the effects of language use on society. Luckily, I was not deemed a threat to Canada.


Seems like OGL can speak out of both side of his mouth or at the very least, OGL, is the only arbiter of when sociology may or may not be practiced.Kady O'Malley Inside Politics Blog



OGL said:


> *...I think that that kind of situation obviously bred a threat, and that's why we are so worried when we look around the world now at other places where the same thing could happen...
> 
> ...the right thing to do to try and help people and help countries so that they don't get into that situation...*





CBCNews said:


> Hot on the heels of Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre's eyebrow-raising assertion that the 'root cause of terrorism is terrorists,' the quote-mining elves at the Liberal research bureau have unearthed comments made by the prime minister that, they claim, suggest that he was 'singing a very different tune' less than two years ago, when he was interviewed by CBC chief correspondent Peter Mansbridge on the tenth anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
> The key passage from that interview -- with emphasis, needless to say, as it appears in the press release sent out by the Liberals:
> "The fact that Afghanistan became a failed state, where you know, people just essentially lived in not just poverty, but brutality, to the point where a kind of Islamic fascist regime literally invited terrorists, international terrorists to set up camp in their country. *I think that that kind of situation obviously bred a threat, and that's why we are so worried when we look around the world now at other places where the same thing could happen...* That's the kind of thing I think we really have to worry about, where you have not just poverty, but poverty and literally lawlessness becomes the nature of the state. And I do think it's in our broader interests and *the right thing to do to try and help people and help countries so that they don't get into that situation.* That's why, you know, we obviously are helping with the famine in East Africa. It's why we're so involved in Haiti. Not to have that kind of a state in our own backyard. So those, I think those kinds of situations are very dangerous." (Stephen Harper, CBC News - The National, September 8, 2011)
> 
> You can watch the complete interview here.
> 
> Meanwhile, over at his Ottawa Citizen blog, Glen McGregor points out that, despite the PM's more recently expressed view that this is "not the time to commit sociology," his government has contributed half a million dollars in funding for a Laval University professor's research into "why some individuals and groups resort to terrorism."


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> Seems like OGL can speak out of both side of his mouth ...


A piece of baklava if you're already two-faced. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Yep.


----------



## groovetube

Omar Khadr prison interview nixed by Vic Toews' office | CTV News

So, what are they afraid of?


----------



## groovetube

Liberals accuse Conservatives of breaking laws with Justin Trudeau attack ads | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

Now why would anyone expect these thugs to respect copyright laws?


----------



## groovetube

Omar Khadr Interview Nixed After 'Overt Political Influence'

So, this government has silenced MPs, scientists, police, civil servants, now prisoners.

What's next on the gag list?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Liberals accuse Conservatives of breaking laws with Justin Trudeau attack ads | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> Now why would anyone expect these thugs to respect copyright laws?


Wonder what the penalties are for that, under the Cons new improved copyright laws.

Are we talking jail time or merely Draconian fines.


----------



## groovetube

they're usually all ga ga over the law and order thing, that is until they break the law and it's a quiet announcement of the conviction say xmas eve or something.

The supporters get all shifty eyed, quiet, but will rise up like a Pterodactyl if you dare mention the misdeed. Hisses of 'better'n da liberals' will ensure.


----------



## screature

Mulcair is getting hammered in the media for calling into question the integrity of the Supreme Court and rightly so... The more he panders to the soft Nationalists in Quebec the more he makes himself look like a buffoon to the rest of Canada.

Meet Thomas Mulcair, our Supreme Court conspiracy-theorist-in-chief

With the Supreme Court, Mulcair is playing a dangerous game

One man’s wing nut is another man’s trustworthy leader

Thomas Mulcair is becoming a liability to his party and an embarrassment to federalism


----------



## arminia

Canada can't account for $3.1B in anti-terror funding, AG finds - Politics - CBC News


----------



## iMouse

I heard that this morning on CBC2.

This auditor-general needs to be fired.

We all know that the Emperor *has* clothes!!!


----------



## Dr.G.

iMouse said:


> I heard that this morning on CBC2.
> 
> This auditor-general needs to be fired.
> 
> We all know that the Emperor *has* clothes!!!


I agree. We know where the funds went .............. to protect Canadians. For what other purposes might the funds have been utilized????? Silly Rabbit ............... tax dollars are for spending.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I agree. We know where the funds went .............. to protect Canadians. For what other purposes might the funds have been utilized????? Silly Rabbit ............... tax dollars are for spending.


ha ha! This government sure lives by that!
Biggest spenders in history!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> ha ha! This government sure lives by that!
> Biggest spenders in history!


But they are spending it on us ................. we get more immigrants (granted some take jobs from Canadians), more political ads (granted some are negative), more prisons and no tax increases on those of us in the highest tax brackets with 8 figure incomes. All in all, money well spent on a win-win situaiton.

Don't be such a Gloomy Gus. Look on the bright side ...............

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## bryanc

Dr.G. said:


> But they are spending it on us ................. we get more immigrants (granted some take jobs from Canadians), more political ads (granted some are negative), more prisons and no tax increases on those of us in the highest tax brackets with 8 figure incomes. All in all, money well spent on a win-win situaiton.
> 
> Don't be such a Gloomy Gus. Look on the bright side ...............


Don't forget more fighter planes (that we may or may not actually buy, and which may or may not actually fly in the arctic), more pipelines and environmental disasters (which make money for the contractors hired to clean up at tax-payers expense), more ignorance of the oceans and aquatic ecosystems (thanks to cuts in research funding), more corporate welfare, more dead soldiers, more native protests, more opportunities for private clinics to profit from the misfortunes of others, more socially regressive legislation, more secrecy, and more contempt of parliament than any government in history.

The Harper Conservatives; a government that gives you more.


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> more dead soldiers


Is there going to be some kind of natural die-off? There are no combat soldiers presently serving Canada, are there? Am I missing something? 

EDIT: And remember that I stated "combat". Canada has not had a combat role anywhere in the world since it ended the Afghan campaign in 2011. It now serves there in a humanitarian and training role only.


----------



## groovetube

*cough* Afghanistan?


----------



## BigDL

*Let's Count Our Blessings*

There is always something scary about OGL. However not as scary as this Popoff. Popoff! Haa-Haaaaaaaaa :clap::clap: :lmao::lmao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UFj6musCO4


----------



## groovetube

Clement is busy pointing the fingers at the liberals, except the paragraph that quoted the AG was:



> In a report released Tuesday, Michael Ferguson revealed that *the Harper government has been unable to explain why so much money set aside in recent years for the anti-terrorism initiative has simply gone missing.*


oh boy.


----------



## BigDL

For 3.1 BILLION DOLLARS WORTH! Gazeboes must pop'n up like mushrooms after rainy weather with Clement's handling of that kind of cash.


----------



## i-rui

Now that's some sound economic stewardship!


----------



## groovetube

no matter how this plays out, it doesn't look good on them that they can't account for it.


----------



## iMouse

i-rui said:


> Now that's some sound economic stewardship!


Stewardship is not the game. Any decent administrator can do that.

This is about raw power, and the need to exercise it.

You don't do that by doing the right thing, but by doing the opposite.

<Too cynical? Too bad!> tptptptp


----------



## heavyall

arminia said:


> Canada can't account for $3.1B in anti-terror funding, AG finds - Politics - CBC News


Note that the programs through which the missing money was allocated were set up in 2001. Now who was it that was in power in 2001? 




groovetube said:


> ha ha! This government sure lives by that!
> Biggest spenders in history!


Not even close. As a percentage of GDP, Trudeau spend considerably more. Adjusted for inflation, Harper's deficits are less than half of Trudeau's.

CBC News - Interactive: Canada's deficits and surpluses, 1963-2012


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Note that the programs through which the missing money was allocated were set up in 2001. Now who was it that was in power in 2001?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close. As a percentage of GDP, Trudeau spend considerably more. Adjusted for inflation, Harper's deficits are less than half of Trudeau's.
> 
> CBC News - Interactive: Canada's deficits and surpluses, 1963-2012


Yeah I've heard that trotted out a number of times, but it's still BS. Cons need to spin it a certain way in order to justify the complete failure of the current cons to not spend like idiots and bloat government.

So it's ok with you Harper has spent nearly 600 million in blanketed TV campaign ads?

It's ok with you the constant grabbing of millions to spend such as the 50 million in gazebos?

How many senators has harper appointed now? 10? 20? 30????

And now, 3.1 billion has gone missing. In your attempt to smear the liberals, which is usually the very first knee jerk thing for a con to do, you conveniently missed the* quote of the AG* I posted, that very clearly referred to all the money set aside... "in recent years".

I noticed how CTV very conveniently let that line out in their report of the news, but less kool aid drinking outlets reported it. Interesting little line eh?

Sorry bub.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Note that the programs through which the missing money was allocated were set up in 2001. Now who was it that was in power in 2001?
> 
> Not even close. As a percentage of GDP, Trudeau spend considerably more. Adjusted for inflation, Harper's deficits are less than half of Trudeau's.



Don't expect facts and numbers to break through the NDP love-in, heavyall. If _Now Magazine_ says its true, it's carved in stone.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> Not even close. As a percentage of GDP, Trudeau spend considerably more. Adjusted for inflation, Harper's deficits are less than half of Trudeau's.
> 
> CBC News - Interactive: Canada's deficits and surpluses, 1963-2012


Why are you comparing Harper to Trudeau's numbers? Why not to Mulroneys? Isn't Mulroney the biggest spender on that list by your criteria? Why not compare Harper to Chrétien or Martin? Aren't they more recent? 

I'd take the average of those liberal numbers over the average of those conservative numbers any day of the week.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Don't expect facts and numbers to break through the NDP love-in, heavyall. If _Now Magazine_ says its true, it's carved in stone.


What if the auditor general says it's true?


----------



## bryanc

The AG and the rest of the reality-based world has an obvious liberal bias; it's all a conspiracy to make the conservatives look bad.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> What if the auditor general says it's true?


Depends on how the numbers are crunched. Often, numbers are presented for effect, not adequate comparison.

However, I continue to give any political caller from the Conservative or PC Ontario party hell because I believe the one spends too much and the other isn't offering serious cuts in spending. 

Mulroney was the absolute model of a Red Tory, a species which I hope will soon be extinct.



bryanc said:


> The AG and the rest of the reality-based world has an obvious liberal bias; it's all a conspiracy to make the conservatives look bad.


Why do you keep on talking about conspiracy theories? The left is too disorganized to pull off a decent conspiracy. Perhaps a conspiracy of indolence at best.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> The AG and the rest of the reality-based world has an obvious liberal bias; it's all a conspiracy to make the conservatives look bad.


They need help??????????


----------



## i-rui

Not being able to account for over 3 billion is amateur hour. The idea that the Harper government is somehow fiscally responsible is a joke. How can you responsibly spend tax dollars if you don't even know where the money went?


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Not being able to account for over 3 billion is amateur hour. The idea that the Harper government is somehow fiscally responsible is a joke. How can you responsibly spend tax dollars if you don't even know where the money went?


this was all made up by little leftie rags. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Not being able to account for over 3 billion is amateur hour. The idea that the Harper government is somehow fiscally responsible is a joke. How can you responsibly spend tax dollars if you don't even know where the money went?


If this turns out to be the case I agree. However, I would also expect you to agree that oversight of taxpayer money is not the strong suit of our federal government. It has as much to do with Chretien as it does with Harper.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yeah I've heard that trotted out a number of times, but it's still BS. Cons need to spin it a certain way in order to justify the complete failure of the current cons to not spend like idiots and bloat government.
> 
> So it's ok with you Harper has spent nearly 600 million in blanketed TV campaign ads?
> 
> It's ok with you the constant grabbing of millions to spend such as the 50 million in gazebos?
> 
> How many senators has harper appointed now? 10? 20? 30????
> 
> *And now, 3.1 billion has gone missing.* In your attempt to smear the liberals, which is usually the very first knee jerk thing for a con to do, you conveniently missed the* quote of the AG* I posted, that very clearly referred to all the money set aside... "in recent years".
> 
> I noticed how CTV very conveniently let that line out in their report of the news, but less kool aid drinking outlets reported it. Interesting little line eh?
> 
> Sorry bub.


Not missing:



> In his report, Ferguson acknowledged there were a number of possible explanations for what happened.
> 
> He said it may have been approved for various projects, and then lapsed without being spent. It may have been spent on anti-terror initiatives but reported through ongoing program spending protocols, or it may have been carried forward and spent on other programs.
> 
> "We didn't identify anything that gave us cause for concern that the money was used in any way it should not have been, however it's important that there be a way for people to understand how this money was spent,” Ferguson said.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> "We didn't identify anything that gave us cause for concern that the money was used in any way it should not have been, however it's important that there be a way for people to understand how this money was spent,” Ferguson said.


As I expected. And Ferguson is right--however, people shouldn't expect an immediate and detailed accounting report on a broad program offering multiple spending initiatives over a long period of time.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not missing:


They can't account for it therefore, currently missing.

There's no way to spin this, not being able to explain where the 3.1 billion is, as was already described, amateur hour.

Lets not forget how this government somehow was off by way more billions on the F-35.

Good money managers, that's a joke.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> They can't account for it therefore, currently missing.
> 
> There's no way to spin this, not being able to explain where the 3.1 billion is, as was already described, amateur hour.
> 
> Lets not forget how this government somehow was off by way more billions on the F-35.
> 
> Good money managers, that's a joke.


It isn't spin it is the words of Fergusen, he never used the word missing, those are your words. He seems far less concerned than the opposition and media spin doctors.

No money has been spent on the F-35s.

You want to know who really lied about money being spent that would be the Ontario Liberals to the tune of $285,000,000.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It isn't spin it is the words of Fergusen, he never used the words missing those are your words. He seems far less concerned than the opposition and media spin doctors.


There area lot of really important issues that Mulcair could be addressing. Instead, he keeps pandering to the ninnies who eat this stuff for breakfast without doing any research.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It isn't spin it is the words of Fergusen, he never used the word missing, those are your words. He seems far less concerned than the opposition and media spin doctors.
> 
> No money has been spent on the F-35s.
> 
> You want to know who really lied about money being spent that would be the Ontario Liberals to the tune of $285,000,000.


well of course the opposition parties are spinning like crazy, it's what they do, it's what Harper did quite well too I might add.

As for the Ontario liberals is it -that- important to deflect this that you have to bring up liberals in a provincial government? Really?

C'mon. What's happening here provincially is a bad thing but has nothing to do with the federal conservatives not being able to explain where 3.1 billion went. No matter what spin you apply, that simply isn't a good thing.

This government was supposed to be much better at accounting than Chretien. Turns out, they really aren't.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well of course the opposition parties are spinning like crazy, it's what they do, it's what Harper did quite well too I might add.
> 
> *As for the Ontario liberals is it -that- important to deflect this that you have to bring up liberals in a provincial government? Really?
> *
> C'mon. What's happening here provincially is a bad thing but has nothing to do with the federal conservatives not being able to explain where 3.1 billion went. No matter what spin you apply, that simply isn't a good thing.
> 
> This government was supposed to be much better at accounting than Chretien. Turns out, they really aren't.


Hey it's the Canadian political thread and last I checked Ontario is in Canada. 

It was simply a statement of fact that if you want to look to a government that actually did lie about how much money it spent then the Liberals in Ontario is your go to party of choice right now...

And yes it is not a good thing that the systems in place right now have inadequately accounted for the spending in this program. But I also suspect that when the digging into accounts has finished it will be accounted for.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Hey it's the Canadian political thread and last I checked Ontario is in Canada....


My Canada includes Ontario ........... and Quebec ............. and NL .............. and ........

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## heavyall

I have to wonder.... why is it that the AG is just now getting around to auditing the funding for a program set up 12 years ago? Is there a reason that the audits weren't done at the time that the Liberals actually allocated it?

Compare this to the audit on the F-35, where the AG railed hysterically about money that had not even been spent (no contracts were even signed yet). There is a clear double standard when it comes to the bureaucracy in Ottawa. Liberals in power? Look away. Conservatives? Take the real number, double it and add 30, then shout that from the rooftops.


----------



## i-rui

bryanc said:


> The AG and the rest of the reality-based world has an obvious liberal bias; it's all a conspiracy to make the conservatives look bad.





Macfury said:


> Why do you keep on talking about conspiracy theories? The left is too disorganized to pull off a decent conspiracy. Perhaps a conspiracy of indolence at best.



probably because we're subjected to people writing this type of nonsense :



heavyall said:


> I have to wonder.... why is it that the AG is just now getting around to auditing the funding for a program set up 12 years ago? Is there a reason that the audits weren't done at the time that the Liberals actually allocated it?
> 
> Compare this to the audit on the F-35, where the AG railed hysterically about money that had not even been spent (no contracts were even signed yet). There is a clear double standard when it comes to the bureaucracy in Ottawa. Liberals in power? Look away. Conservatives? Take the real number, double it and add 30, then shout that from the rooftops.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> probably because we're subjected to people writing this type of nonsense :


What's nonsense about it? 

•The programs the money was allocated to were set-up in 2001. That's a fact.
• The AG didn't get around to auditing the program spending until now, 12 years later. That's a fact.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> What's nonsense about it?


Specifically? The most outargeous part is this bit :



heavyall said:


> There is a clear double standard when it comes to the bureaucracy in Ottawa. Liberals in power? Look away. Conservatives? Take the real number, double it and add 30, then shout that from the rooftops.





heavyall said:


> •The programs the money was allocated to were set-up in 2001. That's a fact.


That's an oversimplification. The antiterrorism Initiative was set up in 2001. The way the departments spent money wasn't.



heavyall said:


> • The AG didn't get around to auditing the program spending until now, 12 years later. That's a fact.


Incorrect. The Auditor General did a report in 2004 about the Initiative.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> Incorrect. The Auditor General did a report in 2004 about the Initiative.


And conveniently overlooked the discrepancies. Can't report on that right now, wrong party is in power.


----------



## bryanc

Poor hard-done by conservatives... nobody likes them... everyone is always picking on them... As MF likes to say, time to call the waaaambulance :baby:


----------



## SINC

bryanc said:


> Poor hard-done by conservatives... nobody likes them.


Odd how they keep getting re-elected though, isn't it?


----------



## bryanc

That's more like it; don't whine about people criticizing the ruling party or distract the issue by saying 'the Liberals did it first!' The conservatives are in power because the people of Canada have a broken electoral system that allows a minority of voters to elect a majority government that put them there. So the people of Canada (including the majority that voted for other parties) have a right to know how they're spending our money.


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> That's more like it; don't whine about people criticizing the ruling party or distract the issue by saying 'the Liberals did it first!' The conservatives are in power because the people of Canada have a broken electoral system that allows a minority of voters to elect a majority government that put them there. So the people of Canada (including the majority that voted for other parties) have a right to know how they're spending our money.


Who spent it? Who was in power in 2001?


----------



## CubaMark

*The National Post is becoming a nice source for quotes on all things Conservative in Canada... *

_Auditor-General, Michael Ferguson, found problems beneath just about every rock he examined — ranging from $3.1-billion in money allocated for anti-terror initiatives that appears to have slipped down the back of the government’s couch, to a search and rescue service that is nearly at the breaking point because of lack of a federal plan.

The government, clearly aware of the danger to its reputation for competence, wheeled out the Ministers for Blurring the Issue, Bending the Facts and Dodging the Question at a noon press conference.

But no matter how many times Peter MacKay pointed out that Mr. Ferguson said the Canadian Forces and Canadian Coast Guard have responded adequately to the demands placed upon them, it could not distract from the nub of his findings — that there are not sufficient people, planes and computers to sustain the system._​
(NationalPost)


----------



## BigDL

This AG, let us not forget, was appointed by OGL's government and this AG is not bi-lingual and OGL defended Michael Ferguson's appointment as the best candidate for the job. So don't complain and try to paint the AG as a Liberal Stooge. 

The scary part of all this as self proclaimed good manager of the public purse and open and transparent the 3.1 billion dollar boondoggle OGL put Tony Clement in charge of paying the bills and we know his track record for taking from one fund and spending it on an unrelated items.

Also let's not forget that the AG says the anti-terrorism program has no means of determining if the money (or un-accounted money) was spent effectively or did Canadians get value for money.

For the past 7 years the self proclaimed good managers/open and transparent administrators did not have presence of mind to see if the money they are in charge of is being used effectively or is being spent as intended. Not like OGL or Flaherty would ever consider an omnibus bill to get things done. That bit of legislation seems to have slipped by them.

OGL, Flaherty, Clement and the rest of the Conservative Cabinet are epic failures.



> Odd how they keep getting re-elected though, isn't it?


Two and half years 'til the next election isn't far off tick, tick, tick. Oh! That is if OGL doesn't ignore fixed election dates legislation, once again.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> That's more like it; don't whine about people criticizing the ruling party or distract the issue by saying 'the Liberals did it first!' The conservatives are in power because the people of Canada have a broken electoral system that allows a minority of voters to elect a majority government that put them there. So the people of Canada (including the majority that voted for other parties) have a right to know how they're spending our money.


The system is not "broken" simply because you don't like who is in power. Like a majority of Canadians, I declare it not-broken.


----------



## SINC

The system in place has served us well since confederation and I, like many others are quite content to continue to use it.


----------



## CubaMark

_The NDP have really sharpened their research department's response times... first in the house with Nathan Cullen's quick turnaround on Peter Mackay's past votes on defense spending, and now this:_

*Reality Check: Stephen Harper then and now, boondoggle edition*

After losing track of $3.1 billion in anti-terrorism spending, Stephen Harper said that it was just an issue of a “lack of clarity”. He didn’t even acknowledge the problem that was raised by the Auditor General: A $3.1 billion void between what was spent and what was reported on the government’s Anti-Terrorism Initiative.

What would the Stephen Harper of old have said?

_“one would think there would be some element of shame from the Liberal Party regarding today's report but there is none whatsoever” _

Stephen Harper, House of Commons, November 1, 2005​
_“All of this sounds very familiar. The government denied the billion dollar boondoggle at HRDC, it is attempting to sweep the sponsorship scandals under the rug.” _
–Stephen Harper, House of Commons, December 4, 2002​


----------



## Macfury

Time warp? We've been discussing this already--and how the money is not "missing."


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Who spent it? Who was in power in 2001?


who was in power when the money in question was recently put aside?

Does recently put aside mean 2001?

Keep tryin...:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Specifically? The most outargeous part is this bit :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's an oversimplification. The antiterrorism Initiative was set up in 2001. The way the departments spent money wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. The Auditor General did a report in 2004 about the Initiative.


the whining that the AG gave the liberals a pass and mot the liberals is ridiculous.

First they blame the liberals, then they complain the liberals got a pass.

Here's the truth. This government has been in control of the money for 7 years. If they haven't been able to correct any discrepancies that may, or may not have existed prior to this, then they're even more incompetent than what is being suggested.

But we have seen many examples of the conservatives shrieking that it's someone else's fault when they got caught with their pants down. 

Expect to see more of that as we go.


----------



## BigDL

It's little wonder OGL lost track of 3.1 Billion Dollars. OGL's Conservatives don't know what jets or ships cost in the process of procurement. They can't buy new systems nor helicopters for Search and Rescue. 

How can we expect OGL to keep track of spending on terrorists he just repeatedly brags on about tough on crime and tough terrorists. OGL will have to spend more of Canadian's tax money on the "Going Around In Circles ActionPlan 2013" AD's.


----------



## groovetube

Harper under fire for Elections Canada budget cuts amid rampant voting problems | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

silly billys.

It serves two purposes. It frees up puh=lenty of cashola for millions more in action plan adscam ads, because y'know 600 million of taxpayers money isn't gonna be enough, and it further teches them election upstarts from mouthing off about any conservative misdeeds.

majority governments. It's what they do.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G., your colleague Liam Swiss (Sociology, MUN) is bringing attention to another bit of financial sleight-of-hand involving the Canadian International Development Agency. In this case, at least, the Conservatives appear to know exactly what they're doing - to the detriment of Canadian aid programmes...

*CIDA’s unspent money*

In January, Canada’s Minister for International Cooperation, Julian Fantino, made waves in the press by suggesting that there was a de facto freeze on new aid to Haiti. He then proceeded to justify this freeze by suggesting that Canadians had a ‘right’ to demand better development results out of the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. As Haiti’s second largest aid donor after the United States, this indeed came as a shock to not only the Canadian aid community, but also to the Haitian government and diplomats who deal with CIDA as the main channel of Canadian support for the country.
***
a report by Lee Berthiaume that cited a number of Canadian aid experts expressing surprise at CIDA lapsing “as much as $800 million” in unspent funds in the past year. These funds, instead of funding Canadian efforts to support development globally, were returned to the government’s general coffers.

To contextualize what lapsing that amount of money means to an organization like CIDA, we only need to consider that in its 2011-2012 Report to Parliament, CIDA claimed it spent just over $3.9 billion. If reports of it lapsing $800 are confirmed, then this implies a more than 20 percent reduction in aid spending by CIDA in 2012-2013...
***
In contrast, the news that CIDA is again lapsing hundreds of millions – if not more – in Canadian aid money is more shocking. What this arguably suggests is the adoption of a willful cutting through inaction. The freeze on aid to Haiti is only one example. An anonymous former CIDA colleague of mine put it bluntly and suggested that several programs were indeed frozen in the same manner as Haiti, calling the Haiti freeze only the “tip of the iceberg.”​
(Ottawa Citizen)


----------



## Macfury

It doesn't strike me that there's anything tricky going here. CIDA is choosing not to send the money to Haiti. Fantino even announced it.


----------



## iMouse

I guess the price of rebuilding a palace, before anything, is too much to bear. 

Would they settle for 24 Sussex Drive? I'll help pay the shipping. :clap:


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Dr.G., your colleague Liam Swiss (Sociology, MUN) is bringing attention to another bit of financial sleight-of-hand involving the Canadian International Development Agency. In this case, at least, the Conservatives appear to know exactly what they're doing - to the detriment of Canadian aid programmes...
> 
> *CIDA’s unspent money*
> 
> In January, Canada’s Minister for International Cooperation, Julian Fantino, made waves in the press by suggesting that there was a de facto freeze on new aid to Haiti. He then proceeded to justify this freeze by suggesting that Canadians had a ‘right’ to demand better development results out of the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. As Haiti’s second largest aid donor after the United States, this indeed came as a shock to not only the Canadian aid community, but also to the Haitian government and diplomats who deal with CIDA as the main channel of Canadian support for the country.
> ***
> a report by Lee Berthiaume that cited a number of Canadian aid experts expressing surprise at CIDA lapsing “as much as $800 million” in unspent funds in the past year. These funds, instead of funding Canadian efforts to support development globally, were returned to the government’s general coffers.
> 
> To contextualize what lapsing that amount of money means to an organization like CIDA, we only need to consider that in its 2011-2012 Report to Parliament, CIDA claimed it spent just over $3.9 billion. If reports of it lapsing $800 are confirmed, then this implies a more than 20 percent reduction in aid spending by CIDA in 2012-2013...
> ***
> In contrast, the news that CIDA is again lapsing hundreds of millions – if not more – in Canadian aid money is more shocking. What this arguably suggests is the adoption of a willful cutting through inaction. The freeze on aid to Haiti is only one example. An anonymous former CIDA colleague of mine put it bluntly and suggested that several programs were indeed frozen in the same manner as Haiti, calling the Haiti freeze only the “tip of the iceberg.”​
> (Ottawa Citizen)


I think they're followers just don't quite understand the implications here. I have family abroad in CIDA. Somehow the simpletons just think it's 'just great' we saved money, the cons are simply playing to their 'dougies' , by whipping them up with sheer stupidity. 

Those are the sorts that'll simply believe anything this government says without thinking about it.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It doesn't strike me that there's anything tricky going here. CIDA is choosing not to send the money to Haiti. Fantino even announced it.


Sigh. You may want to read_ just a little deeper_ than the first couple of lines, MF.


----------



## Macfury

Lots of great anonymous sources and unspoken implications here. If the Canadian government is reducing aid and spending the money in Canada instead, why so much talk of subterfuge, tips of icebergs, and people who know someone who knows someone at CIDA?

On one hand, people are crowing about domestic spending transparency, but on the other, they seem to avert their probing eyes if their money is spent on international aid projects that have no transparency.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Sigh. You may want to read_ just a little deeper_ than the first couple of lines, MF.


There's no need for some. Just read the headline, wave the hand and completely accept what's being fed.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Sigh. You may want to read_ just a little deeper_ than the first couple of lines, MF.


Yes, I read it all. Don't expect that my buttons will be pushed by something that sets your hair on fire. 

As far as I can tell, they are choosing not to send CIDA money to other countries, by not sending the money to other countries.


----------



## eMacMan

What it comes down to is this, there are only two possible explanations.

Either the cons have no clue how the money was spent, or they do know and feel that revealing how it was spent would embarrass them far more than mere fiscal incompetence.

Given that the Harper gang was primarily elected on self-proclaimed fiscal responsibility, either explanation is far worse than the Harpolites are willing to admit.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> What it comes down to is this, there are only two possible explanations.
> 
> Either the cons have no clue how the money was spent, or they do know and feel that revealing how it was spent would embarrass them far more than mere fiscal incompetence.
> 
> Given that the Harper gang was primarily elected on self-proclaimed fiscal responsibility, either explanation is far worse than the Harpolites are willing to admit.


None of the above. The issue appears to be that the money was not spent.


----------



## screature

.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> What it comes down to is this, there are only two possible explanations.
> 
> Either the cons have no clue how the money was spent, or they do know and feel that revealing how it was spent would embarrass them far more than mere fiscal incompetence.
> 
> Given that the Harper gang was primarily elected on self-proclaimed fiscal responsibility, either explanation is far worse than the Harpolites are willing to admit.





Macfury said:


> None of the above. The issue appears to be that the money was not spent.


So we can then expect an immediate revision of the projected deficit by the $3.1Billion$ that are not missing but merely unspent?


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> .


:clap: Brilliant, both for it's brevity and accuracy.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> What it comes down to is this, there are only two possible explanations.
> 
> Either the cons have no clue how the money was spent, or they do know and feel that revealing how it was spent would embarrass them far more than mere fiscal incompetence.
> 
> Given that the Harper gang was primarily elected on self-proclaimed fiscal responsibility, either explanation is far worse than the Harpolites are willing to admit.





eMacMan said:


> So we can then expect an immediate revision of the projected deficit by the $3.1Billion$ that are not missing but merely unspent?


So you know better now than the AG himself that there are only two possibilities? I guess if you only see the world in black and white that would make sense.



> In his report, *Ferguson acknowledged there were a number of possible explanations for what happened.
> *
> He said it may have been approved for various projects, and then lapsed without being spent. It may have been spent on anti-terror initiatives but reported through ongoing program spending protocols, or it may have been carried forward and spent on other programs.
> 
> "We didn't identify anything that gave us cause for concern that the money was used in any way it should not have been, however it's important that there be a way for people to understand how this money was spent,” Ferguson said.


----------



## eMacMan

So the deficit will not be reduced in light of the find?


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> So the deficit will not be reduced in light of the find?


There's nothing about this that has anything to do with the current deficit.


----------



## groovetube

meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Justin Trudeau Liberals spring to seven-point lead over Tories: poll | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

After even the attack ads. But it will be interesting to see where it goes after more tory attack blitzes.


----------



## BigDL

For Canadians OGL's schtick is getting OLD = XX)


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> None of the above. The issue appears to be that the money was not spent.


So it's option 1. Not knowing you have $3 Billion has to qualify as fiscal incompetence. Even more so if it is not immediately freed up to help offset the ever bloating deficit.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> So it's option 1. Not knowing you have $3 Billion has to qualify as fiscal incompetence. Even more so if it is not immediately freed up to help offset the ever bloating deficit.


Not knowing immediately is not incompetence. If they can't provide an answer within 30 days, then I would think you might have a point.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> So it's option 1. Not knowing you have $3 Billion has to qualify as fiscal incompetence. Even more so if it is not immediately freed up to help offset the ever bloating deficit.


exactly. A few million, perhaps. Maybe even a hundred million. I'd say quite plausible.

But we're talking 3.1 BILLION. Anyone who gives them a free pass on that one, simply has no credibility whatsoever. Next time I hear any whining about financial incompetence of other parties I'll just laugh.

3.1 billion. Just how, does an amount so massive like that not be able to be accounted for, quickly?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Not knowing immediately is not incompetence. If they can't provide an answer within 30 days, then I would think you might have a point.


here's the specific chapter from the AG's report :

Chapter 8?Spending on the Public Security and Anti-Terrorism Initiative

from the conclusion :



> 8.35 Although the Secretariat was to provide summary reports to the Treasury Board, this information had not been reported by the Secretariat.


regarding the Period covered by the audit:



> The audit covered the period between the proclamation of the 2001 federal budget and 31 March 2009. Audit work for this chapter was completed on 13 November 2012.


so the government has known about this since Nov 2012.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> here's the specific chapter from the AG's report :
> 
> Chapter 8?Spending on the Public Security and Anti-Terrorism Initiative
> 
> from the conclusion :
> 
> 
> 
> regarding the Period covered by the audit:
> 
> 
> 
> *so the government has known about this since Nov 2012*.


oh I can hear the SNAP! from here...


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> The audit covered the period between the proclamation of the 2001 federal budget and 31 March 2009. Audit work for this chapter was completed on 13 November 2012.


When was the audit report published?


----------



## groovetube

Ex-astronaut Marc Garneau snubbed at museum unveiling of Canadarm | Toronto Star

yeah because we all know what a class act Harper is.


----------



## eMacMan

In the we'll never know category: What would have happened to that $3.1 Billion$ had the AG failed to clue in on it????????


----------



## iMouse

Cayman Island account?


----------



## groovetube

..


----------



## MacDoc

Hebert as usual has good commentary



> *Stephen Harper’s legacy in government may be nastiness: Hébert*
> It’s unusual for a governing party to devote so much energy on making unrelenting nastiness one of its defining features.
> 
> 
> CLEMENT ALLARD / THE CANADIAN PRESS
> It is not unusual for a government to shed support over the first half of its term. But it is more unusual for a governing party to devote so much energy on making unrelenting nastiness one of its defining features, writes Chantal Hebert.
> 
> By: Chantal Hébert National Affairs, Published on Fri May 03 2013
> 
> 
> MONTREAL—It is not necessary to espouse the opposition mantra that Canadians deserve better than what Stephen Harper’s Conservatives have been delivering to find that many voters did expect better on election night 2011.
> That starts with those who bridged the gap to a Conservative governing majority by switching their vote to Harper in that election. At mid-mandate, polls suggest most of them feel they have been let down .
> The latest voting intentions sounding — done by Harris/Decima for The Canadian Press earlier this week — shows the Conservatives in second place, seven points behind the Liberals and more than 10 points down from their 2011 level.


more
Stephen Harper’s legacy in government may be nastiness: Hébert | Toronto Star

snip



> And yet when he first came to office in 2006, the current prime minister did not lack for consensual goals.
> 
> He promised to fix the democratic deficit that plagued Parliament. Instead Harper’s contribution to that deficit already surpasses that of his predecessors.
> 
> The Conservatives were going to end the culture of entitlement that pervaded previous governments. Instead, some of Harper’s senators and ministers have embraced that culture in relative impunity.
> 
> The prime minister also vouched to restore accountability to government. Instead, he has presided over increasingly opaque budgets and a Kafkaesque regime of communication designed to obscure rather than inform. The auditor general himself has trouble following the money through the federal system these days.
> 
> Harper’s brand has deteriorated since the last election. That cannot be put down to the so-called Trudeau effect and it should not be treated lightly by the Conservatives for the prime minister defines the character of the government and character is ultimately what voters base their judgment on.
> Former prime minister Paul Martin’s demise reached the point of no-return when a magazine affixed the label of Mr. Dithers upon him. At the mid-point of a majority mandate that has featured more partisan negativity than high-road governance,* Harper seems intent on going down in history as a political bully. *It is not a title to be proud o


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hébert is the country's premier political journalist and she's spot on as usual. Her comments are much more subdued compared to other journalistic reviews after 2 year's of a Harper majority.

Good to see the conservatives drop in support but still, a long time before they can get the boot or be reduced to a minority.

In the mean time - carry on.


----------



## Macfury

Hébert is a bitter old Liberal hack.


----------



## bryanc

I remember enjoying Morning Side's political panel with Chantal Hébert, Dalton Camp, and Steven Lewis; all three of them were extremely insightful and very effectively spanned the political spectrum. I certainly wouldn't consider her a 'hack.'


----------



## iMouse

He restrained himself from using 'harpy'.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> He restrained himself from using 'harpy'.


She isn't a harpy.


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> I remember enjoying Morning Side's political panel with Chantal Hébert, Dalton Camp, and Steven Lewis; all three of them were extremely insightful and very effectively spanned the political spectrum. I certainly wouldn't consider her a 'hack.'


Hack is a poor choice, she is a talented writer. She does, however, have an overt far-left bias. Pure fantasy anti-conservative columns like this one are her primary body of work.


----------



## bryanc

Her position is generally far to the Right of mine and that of most people I know. But rather than describing her as 'far-right' as she appears from my perspective, I recognize that my perspective is to the left of most Canadians, so I view Hébert as 'centrist.' That you view her as 'far-left' does not surprise me, as people on the political right generally seem to have a hard time empathizing with others or imagining how others might perceive things.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> That you view her as 'far-left' does not surprise me, as people on the political right generally seem to have a hard time empathizing with others or imagining how others might perceive things.


I can certainly empathize with the desires of some to have other pay to support them or their favoured causes. I just don't happen to agree that they deserve it.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Hack is a poor choice, she is a talented writer. She does, however, have an overt far-left bias. Pure fantasy anti-conservative columns like this one are her primary body of work.


She has a far-left bias because she had the audacity to proclaim Stephen Harper to be more than disagreeable. 

OGL is disagreeable, OGL is nasty and OGL does bully. 

Speak the truth then you speak like a lefty? 

Don't speak the truth then you speak like a...???


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> She has a far-left bias because she had the audacity to proclaim Stephen Harper to be more than disagreeable.
> 
> OGL is disagreeable, OGL is nasty and OGL does bully.
> 
> Speak the truth then you speak like a lefty?
> 
> Don't speak the truth then you speak like a...???


No. Because she has a philosophical proclivity for agreeing with the issues of the left.

You seem to be particularly attuned to the idea that almost all disagreement is bullying. Why?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Except that Hébert consistently points out how unpalatable some NDP policy is across Canada. She's objective and knowledgable of Canadian political process and precedent. 

Yeah sure. Far left. 🙈🙉🙊


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeah sure. Far left. 🙈🙉🙊


Not kook fringe left. Liberal left.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Except that Hébert consistently points out how unpalatable some NDP policy is across Canada.


I didn't say she was stupid.



> She's objective and knowledgable of Canadian political process and precedent.


Knowledgable, absolutely. She's a very smart lady, and very good writer. Objective, absolutely not. Read the damn article. It's a hit-piece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> I didn't say she was stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> Knowledgable, absolutely. She's a very smart lady, and very good writer. Objective, absolutely not. Read the damn article. It's a hit-piece.


Hit piece my eye. Simply telling it like it is.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Simply telling it like it is.


Euphamism for "Agrees wholeheartedly with me."


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Euphamism for "Agrees wholeheartedly with me."


I'd go a lot further with respect to the vitriol and seriousness of my attack if I were writing about Harper. Hébert is very restrained and restricts herself to the facts, i.e. "telling it like it is."


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Her position is generally far to the Right of mine and that of most people I know. But rather than describing her as 'far-right' as she appears from my perspective, I recognize that my perspective is to the left of most Canadians, so I view Hébert as 'centrist.' That you view her as 'far-left' does not surprise me,* as people on the political right generally seem to have a hard time empathizing with others or imagining how others might perceive things*.


Balderdash...

Instead when I know someone is in trouble I help them as opposed to those who just do nothing expecting there to be a publicly funded program to look after them.

Your stereotyping is laughable coming from an educated man.


----------



## groovetube

oh the smack talk begins. Or continues not sure.

I thought Hébert could have hit a whole lot harder as well, but it seems criticism on any level automatically makes anyone a socialist partisan.

Ridiculous.


----------



## iMouse

Soon it will be transformed to heretic.

And then the burnings will start.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Soon it will be transformed to heretic.
> 
> And then the burnings will start.


EhMacers are too lazy to be heretics.


----------



## CubaMark

Just read Hebert's column. Seriously? That kid gloves and dare I say balanced commentary has gotten all of you riled up? Talk about thin skin! IMHO, if she was aiming for the jugular, she barely scratched the skin...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Just read Hebert's column. Seriously? That kid gloves and dare I say balanced commentary has gotten all of you riled up? Talk about thin skin! IMHO, if she was aiming for the jugular, she barely scratched the skin...


Not riled up at all. Just saying she's an old hack.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Just read Hebert's column. Seriously? That kid gloves and dare I say balanced commentary has gotten all of you riled up? Talk about thin skin! IMHO, if she was aiming for the jugular, she barely scratched the skin...


it's gonna get worse though


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> That you view her as 'far-left' does not surprise me, as people on the political right generally seem to have a hard time empathizing with others or imagining how others might perceive things.


The exact opposite is true. Empathy and charity is the halmark of conservatism. People who identify themselves as conservative donate far more money to charity, do far more volunteer work, give more blood, etc, etc than liberals. Liberals don't tend to lift a finger to help anyone, they just expect the government to do it.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> The exact opposite is true. Empathy and charity is the halmark of conservatism. People who identify themselves as conservative donate far more money to charity, do far more volunteer work, give more blood, etc, etc than liberals. Liberals don't tend to lift a finger to help anyone, they just expect the government to do it.


You do have some independent (like StatsCan) statistics or evidence, I mean other than "you can trust me on this."

"You can trust me on this" seems to me to be a right value...or maybe...it's just me...might be I'm just acculturated to this stereotype on this board.


----------



## groovetube

They walk among us.


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> You do have some independent (like StatsCan) statistics or evidence, I mean other than "you can trust me on this."
> 
> "You can trust me on this" seems to me to be a right value...or maybe...it's just me...might be I'm just acculturated to this stereotype on this board.


There are plenty. Most of the research has been done in the US, but they are generally more right-wing than we are. If conservative meant less compassion/empathy/giving/etc, it would should show up more strongly there, but it's the opposite, conservatives donate twice as much as liberals:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?hp&_r=0



> Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.
> 
> The “generosity index” from the Catalogue for Philanthropy typically finds that red states are the most likely to give to nonprofits, while Northeastern states are least likely to do so.
> 
> The upshot is that Democrats, who speak passionately about the hungry and homeless, personally fork over less money to charity than Republicans


[ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Who-Really-Cares-Compassionate-Conservatism/dp/0465008232[/ame]



> We all know we should give to charity, but who really does? In his controversial study of America's giving habits, Arthur C. Brooks shatters stereotypes about charity in America-including the myth that the political Left is more compassionate than the Right. Brooks, a preeminent public policy expert, spent years researching giving trends in America, and even he was surprised by what he found. In 'Who Really Cares', he identifies the forces behind American charity: strong families, church attendance, earning one's own income (as opposed to receiving welfare), and the belief that individuals-not government-offer the best solution to social ills. But beyond just showing us who the givers and non-givers in America really are today, Brooks shows that giving is crucial to our economic prosperity, as well as to our happiness, health, and our ability to govern ourselves as a free people.


This Canadian study is specifically about church-goers, but that's still the primary 'conservative' demographic, so the concepts at least are transferrable (the numbers ARE from StatsCan):

Focus Insights | Regular churchgoers more generous with time and money

The survey of 15,000 Canadians reveals that individuals who attend a religious service on a weekly basis are more likely to donate money than those who do not attend weekly (93% vs. 83%). They’re also more generous in the amount they give. Among those who donate money, weekly churchgoers give over three times more than those who don’t attend regularly. And *although they only make up 16% of the Canadian population, weekly churchgoers give 41% of the total amount donated in a year.*


The numbers ARE from StatsCan: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-649-x/89-649-x2011001-eng.pdf but for whatever reason, they chose to quantify religious or not, but not political affiliations.


----------



## CubaMark

Assuaging one's guilty (?) conscience with money on the one hand, while supporting draconian policies that do harm to the most vulnerable in society on the other - that's not empathy. That's psychotic. Or sociopathic. Maybe both...


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Assuaging one's guilty (?) conscience with money on the one hand, while supporting draconian policies that do harm to the most vulnerable in society on the other - that's not empathy. That's psychotic. Or sociopathic. Maybe both...


If writing a cheque is the definition of compassion and empathy, we're all in a lot of trouble.

But trust a conservative to try.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Assuaging one's guilty (?) conscience with money on the one hand, while supporting draconian policies that do harm to the most vulnerable in society on the other - that's not empathy. That's psychotic. Or sociopathic. Maybe both...


Heavyall offers a study that says that charitable donations were more likely to come from conservatives, and the only thing you can think of is to lash out and impugn the motives of ALL OF THEM because conservatives are sociopaths? 

Is this how you want to represent the politics of the left?


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Assuaging one's guilty (?) conscience with money on the one hand, while supporting draconian policies that do harm to the most vulnerable in society on the other - that's not empathy. That's psychotic. Or sociopathic. Maybe both...


Read the studies. Conservatives across the board have far more empathy for their fellow humans than liberals do by pretty much every marker. They don't just write cheques. They volunteer far more of their time and effort. It's conservatives that are truly helping the most vulnerable - locally, and globally. ACTUALLY helping, not telling the government to do it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

After losing $3.1B somehow, laundering money through "giving" might be an easy way for the compassionate to maintain friendships.

Some of the security money that has been accounted for was spent on gazebos and other niceties all assembled by volunteers I'm sure. 

Face it. It's been a very bad week for the Conservatives. They have a little accounting to do. 

Carry on.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Focus Insights | Regular churchgoers more generous with time and money
> 
> The survey of 15,000 Canadians reveals that individuals who attend a religious service on a weekly basis are more likely to donate money than those who do not attend weekly (93% vs. 83%). They’re also more generous in the amount they give. Among those who donate money, weekly churchgoers give over three times more than those who don’t attend regularly. And *although they only make up 16% of the Canadian population, weekly churchgoers give 41% of the total amount donated in a year.*
> 
> 
> The numbers ARE from StatsCan: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-649-x/89-649-x2011001-eng.pdf but for whatever reason, they chose to quantify religious or not, but not political affiliations.


Now I wonder if additional dollars and hours of volunteering might be an effect of donating to the church.


----------



## CubaMark

I have no doubt that conservatives put in considerable hours of volunteer time & effort in addition to whatever financial contributions they may make - and I'm sure that much of it is entirely, whole-heartedly, well-intended.

I'm simply saying that they are working at cross-purposes, when their political actions undermine the very people that many of them would claim to be helping.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> I'm simply saying that they are working at cross-purposes, when their political actions undermine the very people that many of them would claim to be helping.


Are you sure you're not just talking about situations where the difference of opinion is over whether the approach that the left prefers is really helping?


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> I have no doubt that conservatives put in considerable hours of volunteer time & effort in addition to whatever financial contributions they may make - and I'm sure that much of it is entirely, whole-heartedly, well-intended.
> 
> I'm simply saying that they are working at cross-purposes, when their political actions undermine the very people that many of them would claim to be helping.


I agree. I don't for a minute doubt much of the efforts and money donated, by anyone, conservative or otherwise. It seems heavyall has missed the boat here entirely. If a measure of compassion is boiled down to metrics of dollars donated ( helllooooo tax credits!!!!! ) and yes the churchgoers often volunteer a great deal, not to mention older retired people who are often conservative have much time to volunteer, there are many reasons for these numbers that hardly have much to do with anyone's compassion and empathy, much less 'action'. I think it's very sad that anyone would try to push these metrics as a way to say conservatives do more.

It still doesn't remove the fact that conservatives policy tends not to benefit those with less. 

And that's putting it mildly.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> If writing a cheque is the definition of compassion and empathy, we're all in a lot of trouble.
> 
> But trust a conservative to try.


With *our* money, I might add. tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Are you sure you're not just talking about situations where the difference of opinion is over whether the approach that the left prefers is really helping?


You see heavyall, it's not how you direct your personal time and resources to actually help people on the gorund, it's how you vote that really counts.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> With *our* money, I might add. tptptptp


oh shh.

let them spew more nonsense. It's what they do.

Hey did you catch the con circle fun in the well known con blog in the cbc thread?

Captures conservative thought perfectly.


----------



## iMouse

"Fun" as in jerk? 

Yes, tons of laughs there.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> With *our* money, I might add. tptptptp


I'll bite. Since when is writing a personal cheque to charity by a private citizen constitute spending _your_ money?


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> "Fun" as in jerk?
> 
> Yes, tons of laughs there.


None of them are capable of going in a straight line. Until they all end up in a ditch at some point.


----------



## groovetube

Helping the Conservatives with a little Canadian history re-write | Full Comment | National Post

:lmao:


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Helping the Conservatives with a little Canadian history re-write | Full Comment | National Post:clap::clap::clap::lmao::lmao:
> 
> :lmao:


Sadly as some satire ain't what it use to were or ever at all.


----------



## Macfury

Good satire is really hard to pull off, so go easy on him. It's not the absolute worst I've seen.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Good satire is really hard to pull off, so go easy on him. It's not the absolute worst I've seen.


Not only that, being a left-wing paper is still new territory for the Post. They're still figuring out what works, and what comes off as whining. You have to cut them some slack for that too.


----------



## groovetube

yeah the whole end collective bargaining for unions on front page top centre?

Pretty left wing stuff that.

I guess this is the new thing now for conservatives, if a paper isn't in lock step with the government/conservatives and banish any criticism altogether, now they're a left wing socialist rag.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> yeah the whole end collective bargaining for unions on front page top centre?
> 
> Pretty left wing stuff that.
> 
> I guess this is the new thing now for conservatives, if a paper isn't in lock step with the government/conservatives and banish any criticism altogether, now they're a left wing socialist rag.


A token op-ed by Conrad Black in a sea of over-the-top far left commentary? By your logic, the Sun newspapers must be a liberal media outlet because they have op-eds by Warren Kinsella.


----------



## groovetube

And the crap posted by blatchford and quite a few others.

Your comparison to the sun news is ridiculous.

Do you check under your bed at night to ensure there aren't any liberals hiding under there as well?

It seems to be a bit of a shock to conservatives now that their party has been in power for quite some time now, and the criticisms are getting stronger and more frequent.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> By your logic, the Sun newspapers must be a liberal media outlet because they have op-eds by Warren Kinsella.


Ummm... Actually that's *your* logic. 

You apply it to the national Post when they have a few columns criticizing the Harper government. Even though they are a corporately owned center-right paper they suddenly become a leftist rag in your view.


----------



## bryanc

heavyall said:


> If conservative meant less compassion/empathy/giving/etc, it would should show up more strongly there, but it's the opposite, conservatives donate twice as much as liberals


Okay, I read the study you linked to, and firstly, it addresses "weekly religious attendance" vs "not weekly church attendance", not conservative vs. liberal. Given that donations to the church count as charitable giving, it's not surprising that regular church goers donate more than average.

If we counted protesting mining operations or other types of environmental activism as volunteer time, and didn't count donating money to wealthy corporations like churches, I think the numbers might skew the other way.

But fundamentally, I agree, this comes down to a philosophy; should the vulnerable be protected by government or volunteer organizations? 

Conservatives seem to believe that, if the government didn't look after poor people and protect the environment, etc. Churches or private citizens would do it just fine. I'm sure the Churches would *love* to take over education and looking after the poor; as these have always been their most effective opportunities to proselytize and generate new adherents, which is the core of their business model.

However I strongly favour government protection of vulnerable people, the environment, and aspects of our culture that aren't well suited to being served by the profit motive (education, health care, emergency services, the arts, scientific research, national sovereignty, etc.).

What we need to recognize is that, while the free market does a great job of many (indeed, most) things, there are plenty of important social functions that are not well-served by the market model. Some of these can be handled by a modified market (such as things that require massive infrastructure and produce essential products or services, like power and communications), and some need to be dealt with using a purely socialized paradigm (such as national security, research and health care, which produce products that don't really have monetary value). So we let the market handle what it handles well, take a percentage of that wealth, and allocate it to the needs of society that the market does not handle well.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Conservatives seem to believe that, if the government didn't look after poor people and protect the environment, etc. Churches or private citizens would do it just fine.


No. In fact most of them have no trouble with the needy being cared for. They do have a problem with turning half the country into clients of some sort of welfare program or another.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> No. In fact most of them have no trouble with the needy being cared for. They do have a problem with turning half the country into clients of some sort of welfare program or another.


I don't think anyone is advocating this latter position; but let's just examine that at face value.

Suppose we lived in a civilization in which the vast majority of necessary work was done by robots or some other arbitrarily advanced technology, so we have plenty of resources, but there really isn't any need for people to work in the sense of producing things that other people need - everyone's needs can be met without anyone working. So most people write poetry, make art, do research, write music, etc. etc. etc. Of course, that also means that they need to be supported by government welfare, in that they have no way of making money to pay for their power, food, clothes, etc. (perhaps all these things are 'free', but that's just taking the monetary transaction out of the equation; it's still welfare). Would such a utopia offend your conservative sensibilities? If so, why?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I don't think anyone is advocating this latter position; but let's just examine that at face value.
> 
> Suppose we lived in a civilization in which the vast majority of necessary work was done by robots or some other arbitrarily advanced technology, so we have plenty of resources, but there really isn't any need for people to work in the sense of producing things that other people need - everyone's needs can be met without anyone working. So most people write poetry, make art, do research, write music, etc. etc. etc. Of course, that also means that they need to be supported by government welfare, in that they have no way of making money to pay for their power, food, clothes, etc. (perhaps all these things are 'free', but that's just taking the monetary transaction out of the equation; it's still welfare). Would such a utopia offend your conservative sensibilities? If so, why?


Clarify: ALL work is being done by robots, from domestic chores to farming to cooking at restaurants?


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Clarify: ALL work is being done by robots, from domestic chores to farming to cooking at restaurants?


I can't envision technology getting to the point where, even with AI, all work would be done by robots; and indeed, that's what makes this an interesting scenario to think about. What if all the domestic chores, road-building, dentistry, most medical work, most engineering, harvesting of trees, fishing, etc. could be done by robots. But we still needed lawyers, high-end chefs, politicians, astronauts, school teachers and a few other things. Obviously, those few remaining employable professions would not be able to provide employment for the billions of humans on the earth, but if there really isn't a need for the labour of the vast majority of people, why shouldn't they collect welfare?


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> I can't envision technology getting to the point where, even with AI, all work would be done by robots; and indeed, that's what makes this an interesting scenario to think about. What if all the domestic chores, road-building, dentistry, most medical work, most engineering, harvesting of trees, fishing, etc. could be done by robots. But we still needed lawyers, high-end chefs, politicians, astronauts, school teachers and a few other things. Obviously, those few remaining employable professions would not be able to provide employment for the billions of humans on the earth, but if there really isn't a need for the labour of the vast majority of people, why shouldn't they collect welfare?


Welfare in this case becomes a sort of bribery for preventing insurrection. Given the choice between having people burning down my house and bribing them, I would bribe them.


----------



## bryanc

How is it bribery? Life is good; everyone's got a descent standard of living and gets to pursue their individual avocations. Certainly there would be some people who were more fortunate than others; people who's unique skills were not made obsolete by technology or who's particular talents were especially sought after by society for whatever reason. But if the essentials are being provided by society (i.e. the state, as welfare), why would you describe it as bribery?


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> Ummm... Actually that's *your* logic.
> 
> You apply it to the national Post when they have a few columns criticizing the Harper government. Even though they are a corporately owned center-right paper they suddenly become a leftist rag in your view.


It's not a few columns. Across the board (with the exception of a few token op-eds) they've taken a strong left turn since the last election. They're not as far left as the Star, but certainly left of the Globe and Mail - that's still a big shift from where they used to be.


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> Okay, I read the study you linked to, and firstly, it addresses "weekly religious attendance" vs "not weekly church attendance", not conservative vs. liberal. Given that donations to the church count as charitable giving, it's not surprising that regular church goers donate more than average.


I linked to several studies. The book I quoted is a meta-analysis of several hundred studies that have nothing to do with church attendance. Church or not is how Statscan decided to classify their study. If they asked about political affiliations, they didn't include the data.




> Conservatives seem to believe that, if the government didn't look after poor people and protect the environment, etc. Churches or private citizens would do it just fine. I'm sure the Churches would *love* to take over education and looking after the poor; as these have always been their most effective opportunities to proselytize and generate new adherents, which is the core of their business model..


Churches already do as much if not more to directly help people in need than the government without any expectation of conversion or joining. They help because it's the right thing to do, not because they're trying to get anything from it.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> Okay, I read the study you linked to, and firstly, it addresses "weekly religious attendance" vs "not weekly church attendance", not conservative vs. liberal. Given that donations to the church count as charitable giving, it's not surprising that regular church goers donate more than average.
> 
> If we counted protesting mining operations or other types of environmental activism as volunteer time, and didn't count donating money to wealthy corporations like churches, I think the numbers might skew the other way.
> 
> But fundamentally, I agree, this comes down to a philosophy; should the vulnerable be protected by government or volunteer organizations?
> 
> Conservatives seem to believe that, if the government didn't look after poor people and protect the environment, etc. Churches or private citizens would do it just fine. I'm sure the Churches would *love* to take over education and looking after the poor; as these have always been their most effective opportunities to proselytize and generate new adherents, which is the core of their business model.
> 
> However I strongly favour government protection of vulnerable people, the environment, and aspects of our culture that aren't well suited to being served by the profit motive (education, health care, emergency services, the arts, scientific research, national sovereignty, etc.).
> 
> What we need to recognize is that, while the free market does a great job of many (indeed, most) things, there are plenty of important social functions that are not well-served by the market model. Some of these can be handled by a modified market (such as things that require massive infrastructure and produce essential products or services, like power and communications), and some need to be dealt with using a purely socialized paradigm (such as national security, research and health care, which produce products that don't really have monetary value). So we let the market handle what it handles well, take a percentage of that wealth, and allocate it to the needs of society that the market does not handle well.


You seemed to have missed two of the right's favourite aspects of charity 1) the deserving and 2) the beholding needy. 

Government programs don't require these two criteria. That seems to drive the righties right around the bend.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> How is it bribery? Life is good; everyone's got a descent standard of living and gets to pursue their individual avocations. Certainly there would be some people who were more fortunate than others; people who's unique skills were not made obsolete by technology or who's particular talents were especially sought after by society for whatever reason. But if the essentials are being provided by society (i.e. the state, as welfare), why would you describe it as bribery?


Even in its current form, welfare is already a form of bribery agreed to by the productive class to prevent the people who are non-productive from stealing or causing damage. 

If society became dominated by the Golgafrinchan "telephone sanitizers" and was based on the efforts of just a few productive members and those who built and serviced robots, then those productive people would no longer have a choice. Either they would have to bribe people or face armed conflict. Granted, the cost of bribery would be fairly insignificant, but it would still be a bribe.

I doubt such a society would last for long, however. It simply isn't healthy to receive something for nothing on a consistent basis.


----------



## bryanc

heavyall said:


> If they asked about political affiliations, they didn't include the data.


Exactly. So this data does not pertain to the question. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that this data isn't relevant.


> Churches already do as much if not more to directly help people in need than the government without any expectation of conversion or joining. They help because it's the right thing to do, not because they're trying to get anything from it.


You're absolutely free to believe in your church if you like. I'm far more cynical about the motivations of churches. Maybe it's because of having a cursory familiarity with history.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Even in its current form, welfare is already a form of bribery agreed to by the productive class to prevent the people who are non-productive from stealing or causing damage.


That's an interesting perspective; no wonder you don't like it. I prefer to think of it as support for people who've either made poor choices or have suffered bad luck, such that they might continue to survive and potentially contribute to society. There may be some who abuse the system, but I think by far the majority are legitimate beneficiaries, and that society as a whole benefits from that safety net.

I certainly appreciate the role luck plays in success, and I would like to think that, should mine fail, society would provide me with a safety net.



> Granted, the cost of bribery would be fairly insignificant, but it would still be a bribe. I doubt such a society would last for long, however. It simply isn't healthy to receive something for nothing on a consistent basis.


Really? How much do you pay for air or the other ecological services upon which your very life depends? I'll grant you that we do pay for roads, fire and police services, and even things like the education of our fellow citizens, all of which greatly enrich our lives, but we do so through taxation, which, last I heard, you consider theft.


----------



## bryanc

Sorry for the double post, but I want to re-visit this


Macfury said:


> Even in its current form, welfare is already a form of bribery agreed to by the *productive class*


(my bold)
Just out of curiosity, how do you define "the productive class"? Is a poet productive? An artist? A researcher who's work does not produce patents or applicable results (say, an astrophysicist)? A pure mathematician? How about government workers like school teachers, nurses, doctors or other people 'sucking on the government teat?'

I would argue that there are many ways to be productive, and only some of them generate wealth in a free-market system. While I'm very glad that most people choose to pursue jobs that generate wealth in the market place, I think it's important that we all recognize that society would collapse without people doing both.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> That's an interesting perspective; no wonder you don't like it. I prefer to think of it as support for people who've either made poor choices or have suffered bad luck, such that they might continue to survive and potentially contribute to society. There may be some who abuse the system, but I think by far the majority are legitimate beneficiaries, and that society as a whole benefits from that safety net.


I don't have a problem supporting briefly those who have fallen victim to something that they can't control. But I accept a safety net, not a safety hammock. The hammock is mere bribery.



bryanc said:


> I certainly appreciate the role luck plays in success, and I would like to think that, should mine fail, society would provide me with a safety net.


I don't really think about the safety net and how it might apply to me.



bryanc said:


> How much do you pay for air or the other ecological services upon which your very life depends?


Nothing, since I already own a share of them.



bryanc said:


> Just out of curiosity, how do you define "the productive class"? Is a poet productive? An artist? A researcher who's work does not produce patents or applicable results (say, an astrophysicist)? A pure mathematician? How about government workers like school teachers, nurses, doctors or other people 'sucking on the government teat?'


In an economic sense, those who generate wealth or provide demanded services.

One a personal level, I would include those who meet the needs of others through personal choice. This is not part of what I'm referring to above.

If someone creates art or poetry as a personal outlet for their creativity, whether they're productive or not is a personal judgement. If you produce reams of unpalatable drivel, but are happy calling it poetry, good for you!


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> It's not a few columns. Across the board (with the exception of a few token op-eds) they've taken a strong left turn since the last election. They're not as far left as the Star, but certainly left of the Globe and Mail - that's still a big shift from where they used to be.


Or, it's simply recognizing that this government is getting longer in the tooth, and usual resulting scandals are beginning to pile up, and boy that can be news.

But to this government's supporters, well that's just plain socialist. When they did it to the liberals last, perhaps they were being hard right then.

It never ends


----------



## iMouse

And Rome is still burning.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I don't have a problem supporting briefly those who have fallen victim to something that they can't control. But I accept a safety net, not a safety hammock. The hammock is mere bribery.


I like your phrase 'safety hammock'... I think I'm going to adopt that.

The point of my SF scenario, where we no longer need much human labour for society to function was simply (as I'm sure you perceived) to exaggerate the current situation into one where you could imagine yourself or someone you have some respect for unable to make money by doing whatever it is that they're good at doing. If you imagine a society where most people live in the safety hammock, but which is not unduly burdened because of that (indeed, since most people don't enjoy their jobs, most people would likely be happier and more productive in such a situation), I find it hard to imagine how anyone could object to such a situation.

Obviously, that is not the situation we currently face, but it is the case that there are some people who's aptitudes and capacities dramatically limit their potential to earn money. This does not make them wastrels or unable to contribute to society, but they aren't likely to be part of what you might term "the productive class." I see no problem with a wealthy society like ours supporting these people.



> I don't really think about the safety net and how it might apply to me.


That was rather the point of my SF scenario. If whatever it is you do, and essentially everything you know how to do, were no longer valued by society, but society was willing to provide a modest living for everyone, why would that be a problem?



> Nothing, since I already own a share of them.


I was not aware that shares in the biosphere were for sale. My point is that the ecosystem is also our safety hammock; we all depend on it, and the fact that a few people are getting very rich by cutting the strands that hold it together and selling them is quite vexing.


> In an economic sense, those who generate wealth or provide demanded services.


So those who do things that are not of immediate economic benefit are not productive? How much did you pay your mom to raise you?



> If someone creates art or poetry as a personal outlet for their creativity, whether they're productive or not is a personal judgement.


I'm inclined to agree, but I would also allow that history and future generations may have a say in making that judgement as well.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> If you imagine a society where most people live in the safety hammock, but which is not unduly burdened because of that...


As wealth approaches infinity and costs approach zero, I'm inclined to agree with you. It no longer matters much. I'm not sure it would be good for people to be coddled that way, or whether society would long survive if made up primarily of lotus eaters and Elo., but given the choice between having them do nothing and starve, or having them do nothing and not starve, the choice would be academic.



bryanc said:


> ... since most people don't enjoy their jobs, most people would likely be happier and more productive in such a situation), I find it hard to imagine how anyone could object to such a situation.


I'm not sue of this. I believe most people would be horrified to find that the job they complain about constitutes a service that is no longer required. For me, the idea of retirement would be a nightmare.



bryanc said:


> Obviously, that is not the situation we currently face, but it is the case that there are some people who's aptitudes and capacities dramatically limit their potential to earn money. This does not make them wastrels or unable to contribute to society, but they aren't likely to be part of what you might term "the productive class." I see no problem with a wealthy society like ours supporting these people.


I'm inclined to have such people perform a public service. And a valuable service, unions be damned.



bryanc said:


> That was rather the point of my SF scenario. If whatever it is you do, and essentially everything you know how to do, were no longer valued by society, but society was willing to provide a modest living for everyone, why would that be a problem?


It may simply be something that human nature could not accept in the long run.

I have argued in the past that an unspectacular but adequate basic personal income would probably be cheaper than the layers of social programs offered today. We would need to remove the bureaucracies that currently oversee these programs today, however.



bryanc said:


> I was not aware that shares in the biosphere were for sale. My point is that the ecosystem is also our safety hammock; we all depend on it, and the fact that a few people are getting very rich by cutting the strands that hold it together and selling them is quite vexing.


We'd have to agree on what constitues "cutting the strands" but if we could, I agree with the concept. 



bryanc said:


> So those who do things that are not of immediate economic benefit are not productive? How much did you pay your mom to raise you?


I'm honestly iffy on this one. I consider that anyone who has a child takes on the personal responsibility to do it to the best of their ability. It's not a crown to do it well, it's a a black mark to do it badly. Centuries ago, the value of another child in society might have been high, and one could credit the parents for bringing a new human being into the fold. 

Another child in the crowded world of today? Meh...


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> Exactly. So this data does not pertain to the question. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that this data isn't relevant.


Of course it pertains to the question. The connection between strong religious affiliation and social conservatism is well established. Outside of a few outliers, you are tracking pretty much the same thing regardless of what you call it.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Of course it pertains to the question. The connection between strong religious affiliation and social conservatism is well established. Outside of a few outliers, you are tracking pretty much the same thing regardless of what you call it.


So the members of the United Church of Canada are Social Conservatives? Is this your thesis?


----------



## groovetube

And according to hard numbers, residents of the red states, (you know the religious conservatives we keep hearing about) are also the highest consumers of online porn.

Fancy that.

Wonder if that could be classified as 'charity' too.:lmao:


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> So the members of the United Church of Canada are Social Conservatives? Is this your thesis?


I wouldn't count being a member of the United Church as having a strong religious affiliation.


----------



## groovetube

I see. So, there are real religious people, and there are the sorta religious people.

some sort of hierarchy of godliness.

It kind if reminds me of how when conservatives do something they approve of, well it's a conservative thing. If not, well the 'liberal' made him do it.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I wouldn't count being a member of the United Church as having a strong religious affiliation.


They often seem more like a volunteer group for the Liberal Party of Canada.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> I wouldn't count being a member of the United Church as having a strong religious affiliation.


Well many people do according to this WIKI: United Church of Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seem to be the second largest religious organization in our Country.

Well how's about them  #1 religious organization Roman Catholics in Canada Roman Catholicism in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> And according to hard numbers, residents of the red states, (you know the religious conservatives we keep hearing about) are also the highest consumers of online porn.
> 
> Fancy that.
> 
> Wonder if that could be classified as 'charity' too.:lmao:


Please show the hard numbers that show a statistical one to one connection between people who self identify as religious conservatives and their specific consumption of online porn. The only study I've seen is that some states overall are more likely to actually pay for it while others are more likely to steal it. I've never seen one that broke down WHO the users were.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I see. So, there are real religious people, and there are the sorta religious people.


There absolutely are. Some people talk the talk and walk the walk, others like the idea of going to church, but don't want to be made to feel guilty.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Please show the hard numbers that show a statistical one to one connection between people who self identify as religious conservatives and their specific consumption of online porn. The only study I've seen is that some states overall are more likely to actually pay for it while others are more likely to steal it. I've never seen one that broke down WHO the users were.


oh I see NOW you want more specific numbers.

We have to accept your incredibly narrow and shaky stats and accept that as fact, despite the obvious problems with them. However the well known study (I posted the actual links here some time ago I don't have time dig it up right now) that showed the states who have the highest number of conservatives who consume the highest porn (you haven't shown where the stats are that show the others are stealing it more than people in the red states) well that isn't good enough.

Given the fact that religious conservatives would be the LAST person to ever admit to such a thing (yet some of the biggest loudmouths are often found with prostitutes and in men's bathrooms looking for sex...), that seems to be a ridiculous question.

Your attempt at trying to slide in the stealing vs paying thing was, feeble at best. 

But then perhaps, conservatives are, more 'charitable'.

LOL.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> And according to hard numbers, residents of the red states, (you know the religious conservatives we keep hearing about) are also the highest consumers of online porn.
> 
> Fancy that.
> 
> Wonder if that could be classified as 'charity' too.:lmao:


Yep I recall the old punchline: "Charity begins at home."


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> Please show the hard numbers


Shhh. Kids read here.


----------



## groovetube

somebody got it


----------



## iMouse

eMacMan said:


> Yep I recall the old punchline: "Charity begins at home."


Can you even imagine having to live your entire life that repressed? 

I can't.


----------



## bryanc

This may be a first. In this post:



Macfury said:


> ...


I pretty much agree with everything MacFury said. 

We probably disagree on where to draw some lines, and what the optimal balance would be, but we're fundamentally in complete agreement. :yikes:


----------



## bryanc

In other news, I was just at a thesis defence where what could be the last DFO-funded research on the effects of oil spills was presented. Apparently our federal government does not believe we need to know anything more about how oil spilled in cold water affects marine life, how chemical dispersants interact with salinity, wave energy, water temperature, how different types of hydrocarbons affect different species or life stages of organisms, how different types of shore, benthic or pelagic microorganisms metabolize different types of hydrocarbons, or any of that sort of sciencey stuff.

Why waste tax dollars finding out how to best respond to a spill? We'll just go ahead and approve the pipelines and let the corporations look after the environment; what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## FeXL

If Jug Ears would just approve the land based pipeline then there would be no worries about "shore, benthic or pelagic microorganisms" 'cause then the oil wouldn't be freighted to China.

Like it or not, the product is going to move. Where it goes & how it gets there can be determined...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> If Jug Ears would just approve the land based pipeline then there would be no worries about "shore, benthic or pelagic microorganisms" 'cause then the oil wouldn't be freighted to China.
> 
> Like it or not, the product is going to move. Where it goes & how it gets there can be determined...


There's hope for both lines. Building the U.S. line will not mean that a separate line to the West coast will not be built--however, it will significantly reduce the urgency and need for a West Coast line. 

On the other hand, LNG lines to the West Coast are another priority.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> This may be a first. In this post:
> 
> 
> 
> I pretty much agree with everything MacFury said.
> 
> We probably disagree on where to draw some lines, and what the optimal balance would be, but we're fundamentally in complete agreement. :yikes:


Stay tuned....



bryanc said:


> Why waste tax dollars finding out how to best respond to a spill? We'll just go ahead and approve the pipelines and let the corporations look after the environment; what could possibly go wrong?


I agree that studies need to be performed, specific to where the pipeline will be located. However, I don't believe taxpayers should fund the studies. The proponent should supply money to the federal government, who would contract an independent university researcher to conduct such a study. If they don't like the result of that study, they get another shot at it--with the exact same restriction.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I agree that studies need to be performed, specific to where the pipeline will be located. However, I don't believe taxpayers should fund the studies. The proponent should supply money to the federal government, who would contract an independent university researcher to conduct such a study. If they don't like the result of that study, they get another shot at it--with the exact same restriction.


Again, we agree, at least in principle. Pragmatically, this is not how it's been done historically; DFO and/or Environment Canada has been funded and charged with doing this sort of work.

While I like the idea of the corporate proponents paying for this research, the fact is that such a model would result in wildly fluctuating funding and more potential for the proponent influencing the results. Because maintaining the infrastructure and personnel necessary for doing this sort of research requires stable funding, I don't think the sort of "industry pays" model is easy to implement. But again, I do like that idea in principle.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> In other news, I was just at a thesis defence where what could be the last DFO-funded research on the effects of oil spills was presented. Apparently our federal government does not believe we need to know anything more about how oil spilled in cold water affects marine life, how chemical dispersants interact with salinity, wave energy, water temperature, how different types of hydrocarbons affect different species or life stages of organisms, how different types of shore, benthic or pelagic microorganisms metabolize different types of hydrocarbons, or any of that sort of sciencey stuff.
> 
> Why waste tax dollars finding out how to best respond to a spill? We'll just go ahead and approve the pipelines and let the corporations look after the environment; what could possibly go wrong?


That's correct! When was the last time anyone made a reference with regard to Chedabucto Bay.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> When was the last time anyone made a reference with regard to Chedabucto Bay.


When Captain Cyprian Southack took Fort St. Louis in 1690?


----------



## eMacMan

A blast from the past for those trying their hardest to believe the Action ads are worthwhile.

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/87585-your-tax-dollars-work-13.html
post 128


----------



## BigDL

Apparently we discovered all we needed to know about heavy oil spills over 40 years ago and we don't need any more information on the subject gotta love OGL.



> On February 4, 1970 ARROW was approaching Port Hawkesbury under charter to Imperial Oil Limited and just about to complete a voyage from Aruba. She was carrying 10 million litres of Bunker "C" oil bound for a paper company near Point Tupper. Entering Chedabucto Bay, the tanker encountered severe weather and gale force winds. She ran aground on Cerberus Rock, a well-known navigational hazard that lies in wait just below the surface of the bay. While it initially appeared that there was no threat of fuel leakage, the heavy weather continued to pound the stricken tanker. Imperial Oil issued an oil spill alert and the crew were evacuated. By the next day, an oil slick one mile long had formed and on the 8th, the ship finally split in two, with the stern sinking in deeper water. Attempts to take off the cargo were not successful nor were the attempts to recover her stern. In all, about 10,330 tons of fuel were spilled, coating 75 miles of the shoreline with thick black sludge threatening wildlife and the fishery. Shore cleanup was a long difficult process as was the transfer of what was left of the oil aboard ARROW to the barge, IRVING WHALE (Ironically the IRVING WHALE became an another environmental concern a few months later when she sank off Prince Edward Island with oil and PCBs which had to be recovered in 1996.) The final retrieval of oil from the ARROW wreck was completed on April 11 and pioneered many clean-up techniques used in later tanker disasters. While the ecosystem of Chedabucto Bay recovered more quickly than expected, much of ARROW's oil remains in sands and rocks where the long-term effects remain to be seen. Her bow and stern sections have become popular recreational dive sites.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Again, we agree, at least in principle. Pragmatically, this is not how it's been done historically; DFO and/or Environment Canada has been funded and charged with doing this sort of work.
> 
> While I like the idea of the corporate proponents paying for this research, the fact is that such a model would result in wildly fluctuating funding and more potential for the proponent influencing the results. Because maintaining the infrastructure and personnel necessary for doing this sort of research requires stable funding, I don't think the sort of "industry pays" model is easy to implement. But again, I do like that idea in principle.


Isn't that what corporate taxes are for? The ones OGL keeps slashing back?

Sounds like some of the solutions proposed would lead to more red tape, and more possibilities of slush fund/corruption. I'm surprised that it would even be suggested by anyone worried about such things.


----------



## CubaMark

*So - how do y'all feel about the Harper Government's push to rejig the National Research Council, prioritizing Applied Science over Basic Scientific Research?
*
*Pure science research drops sharply at National Research Council*



> Gary Goodyear, Minister of state for science and technology, signaled Tuesday the NRC will shift its focus from basic science towards applied research meant to develop commercial products, boost jobs and spur the economy. He said that while the purpose of science is to push the boundaries of understanding, it also must be used for “social and economic benefit.” Changes to the almost 100-year-old NRC will help fill the need Canadian businesses have for research and development, he said.
> 
> Goodyear said the NRC will in future focus on “industrial research, new growth, and business development.”





> The president of the Canadian Association of Physicists warned Tuesday that the loss of “basic” research is worrisome for the country.
> 
> It’s not good enough to leave this work only to universities, said Gabor Kunstatter of the University of Winnipeg.
> 
> “We have tried to argue that NRC’s capacity for basic research should not be lost,” he said. “And that seems to be happening.”





> “What will happen to our capacity to make scientific breakthroughs from long-term research that will lead to dramatic improvements in health care, computing, or information security, or to other advances that we can’t imagine today?”


(Ottawa Citizen)


----------



## eMacMan

^^^^
Sounds like the Harpolite buds will make off like bandits. Instead of funding their own research, King Harpo will order it done to spec. The taxpayer footing the bill of course.


----------



## groovetube

CTV News | News Video - Top National News Headlines - News Videos

Let's remember that OGL, king of small government and applauded as such by his loyal supporters, has appointed some 38 senators to these expensive cushy jobs with golden pensions.


----------



## groovetube

wait, I think that number may be 58.


----------



## CubaMark

_How about we give the CBC bashing a break - so you can focus on slamming the Toronto Star for this article?_

*Star investigation: Millions in taxpayer-funded consulting work kept secret*



> A Star investigation has found 90 per cent of the $2.4 billion paid out in the past decade comes with no description of the work done — and more than a dozen departments refuse to provide details when pressed.





> Most federal departments are not following government guidelines that encourage them to tell the public just what they’re getting for the millions of dollars spent on management consulting.
> 
> A Star investigation found that 90 per cent of the $2.4 billion paid out for management consulting in the past decade comes with no description of the work done on the government’s public disclosure sites.
> 
> This is done despite government guidelines recommending departments “provide a brief description of each contract so that the public may benefit from additional context.”
> The Star went further and asked more than a dozen departments for details of the consulting work provided on specific contracts.
> 
> Even then, several departments and agencies refused to say what services they bought as part of the roughly $700 million in taxpayer money they spent on management consulting.


(TorontoStar)


----------



## bryanc

> ... several departments and agencies refused to say what services they bought as part of the roughly $700 million in taxpayer money they spent on management consulting.


Just for a frame of reference, that's about double the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council's budget... but I'm sure 'management consulting' is far more important to Canadians than science or engineering.


----------



## groovetube

New research council mandate shows Conservative’s hostility to markets | Full Comment | National Post

Interesting point of view, one I'm sure will right over the heads of the ones who love to talk about the 'free market'. Even though it seems they're not quite sure what it actually means.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hmmm Dawggie - when Con supporting reporter Ivison writes a piece like this you know things are not going well. More than just the *3 Billion dollar boondoggle* too!


Stephen Harper’s Conservatives seem to have lost their way | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## groovetube

It appears their spending rampage is going to haunt them in the next 2 years. They inherited a well stock cupboard, and rubbed their hands with glee as to what they could do with it all, now not only is it all gone, but we're deeper in debt than we have ever been before.

The right doesn't seem to fathom that it was the cons here, and the republicans in the US, that took us there. They love to try and deflect that blame to current US leadership because they think they haven't stop the out of control train fast enough.

However, I find this very ironic...



> The Conservatives desperately need something good to happen, to remind Canadians why they entrusted them with government in the first place.


Perhaps they are hoping that Obama's efforts to reinvigorate the US economy will bail them out. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hmmm Dawggie - when Con supporting reporter Ivison writes a piece like this you know things are not going well. More than just the *3 Billion dollar boondoggle* too!
> 
> 
> Stephen Harper’s Conservatives seem to have lost their way | Full Comment | National Post


The days when seeing such an article appearing in the _Post _ was an indication of some significant groundswell passed a long time ago,


----------



## MacDoc

*Dino of the Day gets another pie in the face*



> *EU dismisses Canada’s threat to appeal to WTO over oil designation*
> STEVEN CHASE
> OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
> Published Thursday, May. 09 2013, 1:47 PM EDT
> Last updated Thursday, May. 09 2013, 1:58 PM EDT


EU dismisses Canada

not like he wasn't told....and now wants the trade community to bail him out....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yeeesh another conservative hack dumping on the Conservatives. This time because of the Economic Action Plan propaganda and the way it's being handled. Looking good.

Burnishing Harper’s image with other people’s money | iPolitics


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> EU dismisses Canada
> 
> not like he wasn't told....and now wants the trade community to bail him out....


The EU is in no position to throw pies--with its economies tanking and the Euro on the verge of being dismantled, they had better sign on the dotted line.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Evan Soloman just ripped apart Joe Oliver, Minister of Pipelines on The House this morning. He used kid gloves but confronting the minister with his own statements was most amusing. Oliver sounded like the Harper chump he is. I suspect he'll never be on this seminal program again. 

Have a listen -

http://www.cbc.ca/thehouse/


----------



## groovetube

Why is support for the Conservatives slumping when the economy is in good shape? | Full Comment | National Post

well put. Especially this:


> Secretive, controlling, manipulative, crude, autocratic, vicious, unprincipled, untrustworthy, paranoid … Even by the standards of Canadian politics, it’s quite the performance. We’ve had some thuggish or dishonest governments in the past, even some corrupt ones, but never one quite so determined to arouse the public’s hostility, to so little apparent purpose. Their policy legacy may prove short-lived, but it will be hard to erase the stamp of the Nasty Party.
> 
> Perhaps, in their self-delusion, the Tories imagine this is all the fault of the Ottawa media, or the unavoidable cost of governing as Conservatives in a Liberal country. I can assure them it is not. The odium in which they are now held is well-earned, and entirely self-inflicted.


Yeah but it's always someone else's fault, like the (hisssssss....) liiiiiiberal media.

It couldn't have anything to do with acting like total thugs.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeeesh another conservative hack dumping on the Conservatives. This time because of the Economic Action Plan propaganda and the way it's being handled. Looking good.
> 
> Burnishing Harper’s image with other people’s money | iPolitics


Yeah, another National Post writer with a transparently anti-CPC article, big surprise.

She's way off the mark too. Economies have as much to do with confidence as anything else. If everyone is worried about how bad things are/are getting, they invariably get worse. Sending the message to people that the government has your back, that they're working hard for you, and it's getting results is a confidence booster.

Those ads all by themselves are one of the most important parts of why our economy has done so much better than other nations when the global economy was cratering, and they cost a lot less than many of the ineffective plans other countries tried.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> Yeah, another National Post writer with a transparently anti-CPC article, big surprise.
> 
> She's way off the mark too. Economies have as much to do with confidence as anything else. If everyone is worried about how bad things are/are getting, they invariably get worse. Sending the message to people that the government has your back, that they're working hard for you, and it's getting results is a confidence booster.
> 
> Those ads all by themselves are one of the most important parts of why our economy has done so much better than other nations when the global economy was cratering, and they cost a lot less than many of the ineffective plans other countries tried.


Yup anti-CPC she is. 😂😂😂🙈🙉🙊



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## groovetube

it seems to me only the true blue hard core supporters would defend spending hundreds of millions on an adscam.

Could you just imagine the hollering if it were the liberals.

Keep it up I say. Canadians are clearly becoming more and more sick of this kind of spending excess.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yup anti-CPC she is. 😂😂😂🙈🙉🙊


UP until two years ago, she wasn't. She's got new bosses, new marching orders.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> it seems to me only the true blue hard core supporters would defend spending hundreds of millions on an adscam.
> 
> Could you just imagine the hollering if it were the liberals.
> 
> Keep it up I say. Canadians are clearly becoming more and more sick of this kind of spending excess.


A hundred million or so for better results than the billions and trillions spent by other countries is good value. Anyone who is opposed to that is math challenged.


----------



## groovetube

there are countries spending trillions on ad campaigns?

Sorry but your defence is completely weak. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest these ads have had any effect on Canadian confidence. In fact, it seems it is merely putting them off.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> there are countries spending trillions on ad campaigns?
> 
> Sorry but your defence is completely weak. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest these ads have had any effect on Canadian confidence. In fact, it seems it is merely putting them off.


They aren't, that's the point. Other countries are throwing good money after bad, instead of working on the most important thing - confidence. Anyone who has studied economics will tell you that confidence matter far more than anything else. People who are worried sell their investments and stop buying products. Stocks tank, and businesses go under, people loss their jobs, confidence falls even more. Rinse and repeat.

Lefties say they hate the ads, and it's certainly a popular meme among the left-wing media, but they got the results they were design to.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> UP until two years ago, she wasn't. She's got new bosses, new marching orders.


Not to mention the child she has and the new responsibility. You may be right - she's a sell out. 😂😂😂


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> They aren't, that's the point. Other countries are throwing good money after bad, instead of working on the most important thing - confidence. Anyone who has studied economics will tell you that confidence matter far more than anything else. People who are worried sell their investments and stop buying products. Stocks tank, and businesses go under, people loss their jobs, confidence falls even more. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> Lefties say they hate the ads, and it's certainly a popular meme among the left-wing media, but they got the results they were design to.


ahhhh. It's the big bad "lefties". And it's the left wing media's fault that Canadians are growing tired of watching this government waste hundreds of millions in campaign ads. 

What a bunch of crap. Again, there's no evidence to suggest all this money on campaign ads are helping confidence at all. So your attempts at turning this into a discussion whether confidence is a good thing or not is just a big right turn.

Of course confidence is a good thing. But that doesn't automatically make these adscam ads good too. Sorry.


----------



## heavyall

The evidence is in the results. The best managed economy in the G20. Best management of the Canadian economy during a recession ever. Thankfully they didn't take advice from Groovetube.


----------



## groovetube

Weak. Very weak.

The cons inherited a great financial position that they had nothing to do with.

Still no real evidence these ads had anything to do with any of it. I'm surprised any conservative concerned about wasteful spending would be so gullible as to accept such a clearly nothing excuse.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> The cons inherited a great financial position that they had nothing to do with..


Right. That's why we fared so poorly in previous much milder recessions under other governments.


----------



## groovetube

I'm afraid you're just going to have to do much much better than parroting talking points to make a credible argument.


----------



## iMouse

I thought that's all we did here?

So much flapping of gums, to little effect.

Oh well ......


----------



## groovetube

pretty much!


----------



## iMouse

Some of these 'perennial protagonists' need to get out in the World, and do something to make it a better place.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I'm afraid you're just going to have to do much much better than parroting talking points to make a credible argument.


It's not talking points, it's history. Economically speaking, when the US got a cold, we always got pneumonia. When was the last time that we fared *better* than they did during the same recession? I don't know about you, but I sure remember the times of double digit interest rates AND double digit unemployment. That was not fun.


----------



## iMouse

Are you trying to compare today with the early 80's? Ridiculous.

We had to bail on a nice house and 10 acres, when our Second went to 21%.

I also remember rationing, Green Stamps, and the lot. So, what's your point?


----------



## groovetube

Well, the US had almost a decade of conservative rule, but we didn't. Governments that spend themselves into a total frenzy, and allow more bank deregulation?

We got lucky by not having Harper in for that many years before the downturn. Given Harper had us heading into deficits -before- the downturn, just imagine what it would have been like if the cupbaords were complately bare and the house was mortgaged beyond it's value, like Bush did.

And yes, I'm old enough to remember well more than one recession previous, and know what the differences are.

All I get from you, is vague talking points as to why Harper did well with the economy. He made a number of good moves, and a whole lot of really really big bad ones, that we're going to be paying for for a really long time down the road.

The conservatives don't quite know how to balance a chequebook, mainly because I don't think they have in a pretty long long time.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Trending.....Conservatives may be losing more than the faith | Columnists | Opinion | Ottawa Sun


----------



## groovetube

cue the mud slinging because Kinsella wrote it...


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Trending.....Conservatives may be losing more than the faith | Columnists | Opinion | Ottawa Sun


Yeah but as the voluntary household survey stats become less relevant to reality (as OGL would like it) it won't matter. 

When right leaning Christians become a very small portion of the population they shall just shout louder and more viscerally about their particular interests.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> cue the mud slinging because Kinsella wrote it...


Yeah but he's a good Catholic boy. And the article is from Sun media home of Ezra Levant and other choice Harper applauders. Yeesh it's hard to satisfy some people in this thread. 

As an aside I was at a fundraiser last night and a local Con told me the CPC thought it was getting a benevolent dictator and Harper has turned out to be a malevolent dictator instead. The seeds of discontent are growing.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeah but he's a good Catholic boy. And the article is from Sun media home of Ezra Levant and other choice Harper applauders. Yeesh it's hard to satisfy some people in this thread.
> 
> As an aside I was at a fundraiser last night and a local Con told me the CPC thought it was getting a benevolent dictator and Harper has turned out to be a malevolent dictator instead. The seeds of discontent are growing.


got a link to back up your assertions?

If'n ya can't google it, it never happened. The CPC discontent is a figment of your imagination.


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:lmao:


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> cue the mud slinging because Kinsella wrote it...


To be fair, Kinsella also wrote an article in The Walrus a while back that started with the assertion that Ignatieff ran a brilliant campaign. 

That said, he has a point about secularization in Canada and its effect on politics.


----------



## groovetube

Well I'm sure we can find a real doozy written by any one of them.

But the subject matter is what's important.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sonal said:


> To be fair, Kinsella also wrote an article in The Walrus a while back that started with the assertion that Ignatieff ran a brilliant campaign.
> 
> That said, he has a point about secularization in Canada and its effect on politics.


Kinsella is also on record saying that vote splitting will benefit the Cons in the next election - the link is somewhere in this thread too. Mind you he said that before OMD (our malevolent dictator) saw his fortunes tanking. 

Nonetheless, with 2 years left to end the majority time, many things can happen.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

If you want a little insight into the type of historical revising the Cons are up to, take a look here. 

http://www.dorchesterreview.ca/2013/01/17/are-you-ready-to-rumble/

Worth a laugh or two, or not.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> To be fair, Kinsella also wrote an article in The Walrus a while back that started with the assertion that Ignatieff ran a brilliant campaign.
> 
> That said, he has a point about secularization in Canada and its effect on politics.


Kinsella is simply mistaken that Canadians vote Conservative on religious grounds. They do so on philosophical grounds.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Kinsella is simply mistaken that Canadians vote Conservative on religious grounds. They do so on philosophical grounds.


You're wrong again. Nowhere does he say that Canadians vote Con on religious grounds. Some Canadians do though. He qualified himself and then mentioned the Harper evangelical strategy may morph into the republican dilemma in the US. Yet another skewed misread on your part.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You're wrong again. Nowhere does he say that Canadians vote Con on religious grounds. Some Canadians do though. He qualified himself and then mentioned the Harper evangelical strategy may morph into the republican dilemma in the US. Yet another skewed misread on you part.


Read the article again. Do you need Kinsella to use exactly those words? If Harper is going after "The Evangelicals" it must come as a shock to the Evangelicals, who vote for him as the least bad candidate.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You're wrong again. Nowhere does he say that Canadians vote Con on religious grounds. Some Canadians do though. He qualified himself and then mentioned the Harper evangelical strategy may morph into the republican dilemma in the US. Yet another skewed misread on you part.


Something so incredibly embarrassingly basic, it's almost a waste of time to explain it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's another winner. 

OMD asks Canadians to wish his wife Happy Mother's Day!

Gee so you think there's any data collection going on?

http://o.canada.com/2013/05/12/stephen-harper-asks-canada-to-wish-his-wife-a-happy-mothers-day/

😂😂😂🙈🙉🙊


----------



## eMacMan

An interesting thought from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. One would hope the Cons would introduce this today and it would pass unanimously. Course that would involve the Cons walking the walk.



> Here's an idea that I think would get almost unanimous support across the country: If a politician is convicted of a crime — while in office — they should not be entitled to their gold-plated pension.
> ....
> Regardless, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation is calling on the federal government to follow Nova Scotia's lead and adopt a law whereby a politician convicted of a crime, would have their pension taken away.
> 
> 
> "Any politician convicted of stealing, fraud or breach of trust related to their position doesn’t deserve to get a cent from their taxpayer-funded pension plan," CTF Research Director Nick Bergamini, said in a statement.
> 
> 
> "When a politician is caught with their fingers in the cookie jar they shouldn’t just get a slap on the wrist."
> 
> As of now, the only one of the three senators involved in the living allowance scandal eligible for a pension would be Mac Harb. To earn a pension a senator must serve for a minimum of six years.
> 
> 
> But, the CTF calculates that if the senators were to remain in office until age 75, they would do well for themselves.
> 
> 
> "Because Senate salaries and pensions are adjusted for inflation, Brazeau would be eligible for a $200,000 annual pension in 2049," the CTF notes.
> 
> 
> "Harb would receive $136,000 starting in 2028 while Duffy would collect $58,000 by 2021."


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Well I'm sure we can find a real doozy written by any one of them.
> 
> But the subject matter is what's important.


True, but I don't think he's made a spectacularly revolutionary point here. In essence, he's saying stay out of socially conservative waters if you want to get votes. That's more or less what Harper's done since he took over the CPC. (And, also what his control of the backbench is designed to do.)


----------



## Dr.G.

The Labrador byelection marks the first time that a Conservative Party of Canada candidate has lost a byelection since forming the government seven years ago. Looks like the Liberal candidate will have a solid victory today.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> The Labrador byelection marks the first time that a Conservative Party of Canada candidate has lost a byelection since forming the government seven years ago. Looks like the Liberal candidate will have a solid victory today.


As expected. No one likes a cheat. How many votes did the looney libertarian get?


----------



## iMouse

"Re-elect me, and have a voice in Cabinet."

Pitiful.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> As expected. No one likes a cheat. How many votes did the looney libertarian get?


For a short time, he was in second place. We will see the final results tomorrow.


----------



## Dr.G.

iMouse said:


> "Re-elect me, and have a voice in Cabinet."
> 
> Pitiful.


True. Peter McKay made that promise, but it did not hold water.


----------



## Dr.G.

Liberals take Labrador, as Jones wins big over Penashue - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News

With all 91 polls reporting, the Liberal candidate’s share of the vote was 48 per cent, compared with 33 per cent for the Conservative candidate and 19 per cent for the NDP’s Harry Borlase. The Libertarian Party has a foothold now, going from one vote to 50 votes in this election.

Elections Canada - Electoral Districts


----------



## groovetube

Labrador results: Conservatives say Liberals’ win, Trudeau’s loss | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

You really have to laugh at this one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A Con consultant recommends that Harper gets realistic and civil -
Bruce Anderson: Harper can refresh the Tories by using some common sense - The Globe and Mail

Good Luck!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Labrador results: Conservatives say Liberals’ win, Trudeau’s loss | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> You really have to laugh at this one.




Peter McKay said that internal Conservative polls had a Tory victory in sight.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> got a link to back up your assertions?
> 
> If'n ya can't google it, it never happened. The CPC discontent is a figment of your imagination.
> 
> :lmao:


Have a look at this article from a well known centrist commentator:

Note the reference to our dictator!
The listless Conservatives at midterm


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Tarsands news aggregation site. Good for keeping up to date:

http://tarsandssolutions.org/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Great news about to break. Harper's chief of staff involved in Senate scandal. 

Duffy made a secret deal with the PMO. 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/duffy-made-secret-deal-with-harper-s-chief-of-staff-during-audit-1.1282015

Things keep greeting better for OMD!

🙈🙉🙊


----------



## iMouse

It's a good thing CTV doesn't get government funding ...... that I am aware of.


----------



## groovetube

The conservative tapdancing seems a little quiet of late.

But I suspect the scandals coming in is just the beginning with these liars.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Labrador results: Conservatives say Liberals’ win, Trudeau’s loss | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> You really have to laugh at this one.


Yup especially as about the time Trudeau lent a hand the Cons own polls had it too close to call. I mean surely the Cons are not dumb enough to lie to themselves????

I do think this may be a signal that Mulchair has squandered the goodwill Jack Layton bequeathed the NDP. I see the NDP having much less impact the next time around.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I do think this may be a signal that Mulchair has squandered the goodwill Jack Layton bequeathed the NDP. I see the NDP having much less impact the next time around.


Agreed. The orange dream is history.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Yup especially as about the time Trudeau lent a hand the Cons own polls had it too close to call. I mean surely the Cons are not dumb enough to lie to themselves????
> 
> I do think this may be a signal that Mulchair has squandered the goodwill Jack Layton bequeathed the NDP. I see the NDP having much less impact the next time around.


If that occurred, there'd be far less vote splitting on the left.


----------



## groovetube

BC election 2013 sees Liberals march to surprise victory | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

Well I guess Harper and oil interests (same thing) can breathe a sigh of relief.


----------



## eMacMan

Almost two years old and more relevant than ever.

RMR: Rick's Rant- Debt Consultants - YouTube


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Great news about to break. Harper's chief of staff involved in Senate scandal.
> 
> Duffy made a secret deal with the PMO.
> 
> Mike Duffy made secret deal with Harper's chief of staff during audit | CTV News
> 
> Things keep greeting better for OMD!
> 
> 🙈🙉🙊


Once again much ado about very little. Typical of Robert Fife though he almost always breaks a story before he does a proper investigation. The guy is a hack. 

PM's chief of staff paid off Mike Duffy Senate expenses



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's chief of staff Nigel Wright wrote a personal cheque worth more than $90,000 to pay back Senator Mike Duffy's living expenses, Harper's office confirmed Wednesday.
> 
> "Mr. Duffy agreed to repay the expenses because it was the right thing to do. However, Mr. Duffy was unable to make a timely repayment. Mr. Wright therefore wrote a cheque from his personal account for the full amount owing so that Mr.Duffy could repay the outstanding amount," Harper's spokesman Andrew MacDougall said in a statement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Call me old-fashioned, but I think a PM should know if his Chief of Staff is writing cheques to get selected senators out of trouble.
Call in the RCMP please.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call me old-fashioned, but I think a PM should know if his Chief of Staff is writing cheques to get selected senators out of trouble.
> Call in the RCMP please.


Uh... personal loans or gifts are not illegal.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Looks like poop. Smells like poop. Must be Ice Cream?

Harper

No disclosure of gift made within 30 days as required by law.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

jimbotelecom said:


> Looks like poop. Smells like poop. Must be Ice Cream?
> 
> Harper
> 
> No disclosure of gift made within 30 days as required by law.


Well at least it wasn't cash! Wright used to work for former Con PM lyin' Brian Mulroney. 
He learned.


----------



## Macfury

Look, jimbo is back to agree with skippy--mother and child reunion!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Look, jimbo is back to agree with skippy--mother and child reunion!


A classic Paul Simon song. The dynamic duo is back again. :clap::clap: Paix, mes amis. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDjjWpLKsGM]Paul Simon - Mother And Child Reunion (1972) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## iMouse

OK, then a loan is fine, but how was it funded? 

From what source, our pockets?


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> OK, then a loan is fine, but how was it funded?
> 
> From what source, our pockets?


By Nigel Wright, he is a multimillionaire. $90K is pocket money to him. Read much?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No mention of receivable loan in PMO chief of staff Nigel Wright's most-recent disclosure to ethics commissioner. 
Public Registry


----------



## groovetube

saying nothing to see here is absolutely ridiculous. 

Something smells here, and it should definitely be looked into.

Why is it that when money goes unaccounted for (billions) spent on other things (gazebos) and large sums of money handed to senators to avoid prosecution by the cons there's nothing to see here.

But if a liberal was even suspected of something, their reputation is dragged through the mud. (remember Goodale?)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

As I read the Act, a personal loan is exempt from disclosure if made to a relative or is less than $10k. s.20  Conflict of Interest Act


----------



## eMacMan

Been reading the Angus Reid excuses for the epic poll failure in the BC election.

Missed the two obvious ones. 2/3rds of those contacted hang-up. Of the remainder a significant portion lie, probably because they don't like either politicians or pollsters.


----------



## i-rui

I love how the conservatives bail out their boy Duffy for his illegal housing claim only for him not to declare the 90k as a "gift". You'd figure someone in their gang might want to actually try to read the rules.


----------



## groovetube

cons following rules?

That'd be a first.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> saying nothing to see here is absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> Something smells here, and it should definitely be looked into.
> 
> Why is it that when money goes unaccounted for (billions) spent on other things (gazebos) and large sums of money handed to senators to avoid prosecution by the cons there's nothing to see here.
> 
> But if a liberal was even suspected of something, their reputation is dragged through the mud. (remember Goodale?)





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> As I read the Act, a personal loan is exempt from disclosure if made to a relative or is less than $10k. s.20  Conflict of Interest Act


Doesn't matter what you or anyone else other than the Ethics Commissioner thinks. It will be up to her to determine if it stinks or not.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

OMD PM Harper says he knew nothing of the Duffy payment yet he's on record having personally reviewed Pamela Wallin's numbers. He's a liar.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Memories of the Puffster for those who read Frank years ago.

Memories of Mike Duffy: lawsuits and ‘smear’ campaigns | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Doesn't matter what you or anyone else other than the Ethics Commissioner thinks. It will be up to her to determine if it stinks or not.


except of course, if you don't like what the ethics commissioner says about this...

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-678.html#post1248006

But yes, it doesn't matter if I can see clearly, as pointed out that a conflict of interest rule was broken or not.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Remember when the puffster was a respected journalist..........looooooong ago?

Here's some rural content podners.....

Senate appointment set Duffy loose as high-profile Conservative fundraiser - Brandon Sun


----------



## groovetube

conservative is as conservative does.

This idea that they would be any better with our money was the biggest laugh ever.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> OMD PM Harper says he knew nothing of the Duffy payment yet he's on record having personally reviewed Pamela Wallin's numbers. He's a liar.


No! Absolutely not the case! It's all honourable. Pierre PolyCracker Parroting talking points said so.

Clearly OGL's defence 



+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nothing new here for old Nigel

http://o.canada.com/2013/05/15/nige...st-controversies-before/#.UZQQ_95EfWE.twitter


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nothing new here for old Nigel
> 
> Nigel Wright, Stephen Harper’s right-hand man, faced conflict-of-interest controversies before | canada.com


Yup. people making ridiculous unfounded allegations against him are nothing new.

It's particularly telling how dishonest the MSM really is when they rail against Duffy, the one Senator who apologized for the mistake and repaid the residence allowance, while maintaining near silence about the others who outright refuse to pay it back and still insist they did nothing wrong.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> Yup. people making ridiculous unfounded allegations against him are nothing new.
> 
> It's particularly telling how dishonest the MSM really is when they rail against Duffy, the one Senator who apologized for the mistake and repaid the residence allowance, while maintaining near silence about the others who outright refuse to pay it back and still insist they did nothing wrong.


It certainly is incredible that you can't simply compare and contrast statements made, and of course, look over the evidence that has been filed here that clearly shows someone is lying. For example "the Puffster" is on record saying that he took out a loan from RBC - we know that's a lie. Or saying that Nigel didn't give him a cheque - we know that's a lie given the PMO said a cheque was issued by Nigel. Or maybe the PMO is lying. Once again, the money trail is unaccounted for.

Nigel Wright wrote personal cheque for $90K to repay Mike Duffy's expenses | CTV News

Too many contradictions. Canadian's do not want the rot emanating from the PMO.

I'm guessing that Duff's Senate career will end within 7 days, and Nigel will be bowing out as COS this summer. 

Good riddance!:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## groovetube

ah yes, drinkin the koo aid as usual.

here's an article by andrew coyne, who likely will be cast as a near heretic who should be burned at the stake. It articulates well the dishonesty and shadiness of the whole affair.
The only right thing left for Mike Duffy to do now is resign | Full Comment | National Post

It just makes me laugh seeing conservative supporters trying to cover this one up. When obviously this smells. Credibility much? :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And the plot thickens...more expense claims from the Puffster -

Duffy claimed Senate expenses while campaigning in 2011 election - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

this whole campaign expense thing seems to be a bit of a continuing theme with the conservatives.

Can't win an election well just break the rules.


----------



## groovetube

this is kinda funny awesome:
Mike Duffy says he can’t reach primary residence in P.E.I. in winter | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post



> “It’s none of your business,” the senator said. “I’ve said too much already. When it’s all over, you all will be very embarrassed.”


Yeah we're embarrassed. :lmao:


----------



## i-rui

it does make one wonder what kind of dirt Duffy has on certain conservative big wigs for the party to bend over backwards to try and clean up his mess.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> except of course, if you don't like what the ethics commissioner says about this...
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-678.html#post1248006
> 
> But yes, it doesn't matter if I can see clearly, as pointed out that a conflict of interest rule was broken or not.


It didn't matter what I thought then either I was just venting, the only thing that matters is whatever the Ethics Commissioner rules.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

All the talk in the nation's capital. Even the city's conservative rag -


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> All the talk in the nation's capital. Even the city's conservative rag -


The Ottawa Citizen is a Conservative rag??? You obviously don't read it. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

I certainly do and I would definitely disagree there.


----------



## BigDL

*I Have a Question*

Does this make "the Puffster," Nigel Wright's bitch?

Or is "the Puffster" just another hog at the Conservative's Senate trough?


----------



## groovetube

from the calgary herald.
Even in cynical Ottawa, the Mike Duffy Senate-spending scandal is shameful and sad



> Rules have been broken. The Senate Conflict of Interest Code is pellucid on this point: “neither a Senator, nor a family member, shall accept, directly or indirectly, any gift or other benefit, except compensation authorized by law, that could reasonably be considered to relate to the Senator’s position.” The exception is when a gift is given as “a normal expression of courtesy or protocol, or within the customary standards of hospitality that normally accompany the Senator’s position.” Do not expect Wright, Duffy or the PMO to try to explain how Wright’s gift didn’t break those rules. The reason is that, based on any common-sense reading, they can’t.
> 
> Read more: Even in cynical Ottawa, the Mike Duffy Senate-spending scandal is shameful and sad


Yup.

and...



> Even in Ottawa, encased as it is in a scabrous shell of permanent cynicism, this doesn’t pass. It is shameful, and sad. Stephen Harper’s 30-year-old self, if he were around, would be beside himself with fury – and in the vanguard of those demanding better.
> 
> Read more: Even in cynical Ottawa, the Mike Duffy Senate-spending scandal is shameful and sad


snap!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Puff goes the puffster! Way in over his head.
Senator Mike Duffy quits Tory caucus - Politics - CBC News


----------



## i-rui

...take the money and run!


----------



## groovetube

Nothing to see here! Business as usual!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Nothing to see here! Business as usual!


Sad, but all too true.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Puff goes the puffster! Way in over his head.
> Senator Mike Duffy quits Tory caucus - Politics - CBC News


Sen. Duffy and Sen. Brazeau will form an elite independent caucus of their own. tptptptp


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yup - Once again much ado about very little. Typical Robert Fife always breaks a story before he does a proper investigation. The guy is a hack. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wow this is getting crazy. Harper's bud Mayor Ford smokin crack. The puffster. 

Who says CDN politics is boring?!


----------



## groovetube

Generally it's the ones standing on pulpits screeching the loudest about the ills of 'non-believers' and holy sin tax and spenders, that are found in men's bathrooms looking for sex pants pockets stuffed with brown envelopes of cash (no idea where it came from) screwing the taxpayer out of way more money in the end lying thieves.

And still, people will line up to defend them no matter what. Nothing to see hear!!!!! NOTHING!!!!!!

We weren't supposed to give the liberals a break when they did adscam, and we didn't, why on earth should we turn a blind eye to the weekly scandals appearing on Harper? And you know, this is only what we've found out...

What was that analogy, where if you put a frog in a pot of water, and only bring to a boil slowly?


----------



## groovetube

oh the news gets worse for the puff.

Mike Duffy tried to influence CRTC decision on Sun Media: source | CTV News


----------



## i-rui

It's the frequency of the scandals that amazes me. Every week or two is something new, from illegal campaign contributions, to robocalls, to senator melt downs, etc...etc....

Although i'm sure the Conservatives rather talk about the $90k "gift" than the $3+ billion misplaced in the couch cushions.....


----------



## groovetube

3 billion here, 90k there, 50 million in gazebos, hundreds of millions in adscam er action ads.

meh, it's only money. Nothing to see here.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> 3 billion here, 90k there, 50 million in gazebos, hundreds of millions in adscam er action ads.
> 
> meh, it's only money. Nothing to see here.


Now here's a question how do we know the Puffster only misrepresented the expenses to the tune of $90,000? It is said a $90,000 cheque was given to Puffster and the Puffster paid the Government $90,000 but how do we know that was the exact amount of money misappropriated by the Puffster?

We have no documentation and Puffster did not answer any questions from Deloitte auditors. Brazeau at least did respond to such scrutiny. Puffster paid 90 grand and shut up. 

So how much does Puffster really owe? Will we ever find out from Mr. Transparency aka OGL.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> It just makes me laugh seeing conservative supporters trying to cover this one up. When obviously this smells. Credibility much? :lmao:


No, no credibility at all from the left-wing media. That you keep quoting from PostMedia is just proving my point.

What smells? Seriously, what is the actual problem? The audit that called for those THREE senators to repay wrongly-claimed living expenses, very distinctly said the rules were far from clear, that it was an easy mistake to make. Two of the senators in question have refused to pay it back, and have threatened to go to court over it. Duffy, on the other hand, paid the money back. He's the one who is ABOVE board, he's the one who did the right thing, even though he may not be legally required to if the other senators' appeals are successful.

Did he get the money from Nigel Wright? Yes, so what? Wright is his friend of over 25 years, and is a very wealthy man who has a long history of extreme generosity. Again, so what? That Wright works in the PMO? How is that a conflict when a Conservative member helps another conservative member with a personal expense? What's the ethical problem? That Duffy might be persuaded to be friendly to Conservative causes in the senate? He already was a CONSERVATIVE senator, and the guy he could supposedly do favours for already has the ear of the Prime Minister -- there's nothing he could do for Wright that Wright couldn't already do himself. It was a favour from a friend, nothing else.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> No, no credibility at all from the left-wing media. That you keep quoting from PostMedia is just proving my point.
> 
> What smells? Seriously, what is the actual problem? The audit that called for those THREE senators to repay wrongly-claimed living expenses, very distinctly said the rules were far from clear, that it was an easy mistake to make. Two of the senators in question have refused to pay it back, and have threatened to go to court over it. Duffy, on the other hand, paid the money back. He's the one who is ABOVE board, he's the one who did the right thing, even though he may not be legally required to if the other senators' appeals are successful.
> 
> Did he get the money from Nigel Wright? Yes, so what? Wright is his friend of over 25 years, and is a very wealthy man who has a long history of extreme generosity. Again, so what? That Wright works in the PMO? How is that a conflict when a Conservative member helps another conservative member with a personal expense? What's the ethical problem? That Duffy might be persuaded to be friendly to Conservative causes in the senate? He already was a CONSERVATIVE senator, and the guy he could supposedly do favours for already has the ear of the Prime Minister -- there's nothing he could do for Wright that Wright couldn't already do himself. It was a favour from a friend, nothing else.


Umm. Are we living on the same planet?


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Umm. Are we living on the same planet?


Pick a specific point that you don't understand, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

The short list is Duffy paid the money back, the other senators didn't. Yet Duffy is the one who get castigated, and the ones who refuse to pay it back get a pass.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> No, no credibility at all from the left-wing media. That you keep quoting from PostMedia is just proving my point.
> 
> What smells? Seriously, what is the actual problem? The audit that called for those THREE senators to repay wrongly-claimed living expenses, very distinctly said the rules were far from clear, that it was an easy mistake to make. Two of the senators in question have refused to pay it back, and have threatened to go to court over it. Duffy, on the other hand, paid the money back. He's the one who is ABOVE board, he's the one who did the right thing, even though he may not be legally required to if the other senators' appeals are successful.
> 
> Did he get the money from Nigel Wright? Yes, so what? Wright is his friend of over 25 years, and is a very wealthy man who has a long history of extreme generosity. Again, so what? That Wright works in the PMO? How is that a conflict when a Conservative member helps another conservative member with a personal expense? What's the ethical problem? That Duffy might be persuaded to be friendly to Conservative causes in the senate? He already was a CONSERVATIVE senator, and the guy he could supposedly do favours for already has the ear of the Prime Minister -- there's nothing he could do for Wright that Wright couldn't already do himself. It was a favour from a friend, nothing else.





heavyall said:


> Pick a specific point that you don't understand, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
> 
> The short list is Duffy paid the money back, the other senators didn't. Yet Duffy is the one who get castigated, and the ones who refuse to pay it back get a pass.


Well first let's acknowledge the only thing Duffy did was act like a hog at the trough making inappropriate expense claims. Second, Nigel Wright paid $90 grand, the real reason he did it, who knows!

Third, laws exist that prohibit extravagant gift to Senators as Senators are paid $133,00 a year plus expenses. How much money is the average working Canadian getting by on?

If somebody wishes to live in a fools paradise be my guest.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> Pick a specific point that you don't understand, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
> 
> The short list is Duffy paid the money back, the other senators didn't. Yet Duffy is the one who get castigated, and the ones who refuse to pay it back get a pass.


Sometimes you have to live and let live. The Puffster has shown real leadership in quitting caucus.:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Prediction time - Wallin's next.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Umm. Are we living on the same planet?


it's utterly incredible the lack of any understanding as to what could possibly be the problem.

Even, after Duffy has resigned over it, it still hasn't quite dawned on him why this is different than what is occurring with the other 2.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Pick a specific point that you don't understand, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
> 
> The short list is Duffy paid the money back, the other senators didn't. Yet Duffy is the one who get castigated, and the ones who refuse to pay it back get a pass.


1. Duffy lied and never disclosed the PMO's right hand man gave him the money

2. They both knew the rules says you have to disclose it.

3. there was an agreement to help Duffy get this paid before there are any penalties and the promise 'to go easy on him'.

The way this was handled smelled to high heaven. Conservatives are simply mad they got caught breaking the rules. And to top it all off, anyone who knows the Harper micromanaging from the top knows anyone who believes Harper didn't know about this is truly, truly gullible.

The very fact that you can't understand why this is a big problem is exactly why this happened in the first place.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Prediction time - Wallin's next.


I was wondering about Wallin too, seems less talk about her than the other 3.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sometimes you have to live and let live. The Puffster has shown real leadership in quitting caucus.:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


Translation: as usual, you've got nothing.



BigDL said:


> Well first let's acknowledge the only thing Duffy did was act like a hog at the trough making inappropriate expense claims. Second, Nigel Wright paid $90 grand, the real reason he did it, who knows!
> 
> Third, laws exist that prohibit extravagant gift to Senators as Senators are paid $133,00 a year plus expenses. How much money is the average working Canadian getting by on?
> 
> If somebody wishes to live in a fools paradise be my guest.


If the average Canadian representing both a home province and the federal government at the same time? Clearly this is a job that if someone actually DOES the job, that will incur significant expenses. Duffy is being tarred for actively doing the job, compared to the long list of senators who collect the paycheck, but can't even be bothered to SHOW UP.

Also, keep in mind that Wright hasn't actually given Duffy any money outright. Duffy paid the overage with an RBC bank loan. Wright gave the cheque _in trust_ to Duffy's lawyer. Duffy is experiencing serious health issues. He (and Wright) are just ensuring that his wife is not financially burdened by all this should he not survive.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Prediction time - Wallin's next.


:clap::clap: Good Call. The media might get off their collective behind and take a good look at her.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Translation: as usual, you've got nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Canadian representing both a home province and the federal government at the same time? Clearly this is a job that if someone actually DOES the job, that will incur significant expenses. Duffy is being tarred for actively doing the job, compared to the long list of senators who collect the paycheck, but can't even be bothered to SHOW UP.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that Wright hasn't actually given Duffy any money outright. Duffy paid the overage with an RBC bank loan. Wright gave the cheque _in trust_ to Duffy's lawyer. Duffy is experiencing serious health issues. He (and Wright) are just ensuring that his wife is not financially burdened by all this should he not survive.


How do you know these are the reasons. Pierre Poilievre has offered many more reasons for the payment. These include Wright was saving the taxpayer. Believe what you want to believe. 

Personally I'll wait for the truth to come out, I'm patient.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Translation: as usual, you've got nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Canadian representing both a home province and the federal government at the same time? Clearly this is a job that if someone actually DOES the job, that will incur significant expenses. Duffy is being tarred for actively doing the job, compared to the long list of senators who collect the paycheck, but can't even be bothered to SHOW UP.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that Wright hasn't actually given Duffy any money outright. Duffy paid the overage with an RBC bank loan. Wright gave the cheque _in trust_ to Duffy's lawyer. Duffy is experiencing serious health issues. He (and Wright) are just ensuring that his wife is not financially burdened by all this should he not survive.


and if the expenses are legitimate they can claim them.

Simple.

But trying to lie about your principle residence to grab more taxpayers dollars, lying about expenses while campaigning for Harper??

Sorry, there's no excuse for this.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> and if the expenses are legitimate they can claim them.
> 
> Simple.


He did claim them, for several years, they were reimbursed. Then the audit was done, the auditors fully admitted that the rules are not clear as to what can and cannot be covered (he absolutely DOES have two residences, the question is the number of days he spends in Ottawa), but asked for the money back anyway. Duffy complied with the request, the others did not.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> and if the expenses are legitimate they can claim them.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> But trying to lie about your principle residence to grab more taxpayers dollars, lying about expenses while campaigning for Harper??
> 
> Sorry, there's no excuse for this.


...oh! Let's not forget the double dip. Ask for expenses from the Conservative Party and expenses from the Senate (taxpayers) for the events on the same day. Then money paid out by the Conservative Party expenses for the election campaign are reimbursed by the taxpayers after the election.

 Is this now a double double dip?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> He did claim them, for several years, they were reimbursed. Then the audit was done, the auditors fully admitted that the rules are not clear as to what can and cannot be covered (he absolutely DOES have two residences, the question is the number of days he spends in Ottawa), but asked for the money back anyway. Duffy complied with the request, the others did not.


sorry but that's not what happened.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> Translation: as usual, you've got nothing.


Since you obviously have a hard time reading maybe watching this and listening may help to bridge the gap in your understanding about why this matters. I have no doubt you'll say this is TV left wing journalism. Best of luck in the real world bud.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkyDTzVfWZQ]At Issue: The Senate Scandal - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What a team of backstabbers! What ever happened to a friend in need is a friend indeed?

Duffy quits Conservative caucus over expenses as colleagues began turning on him - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh oh Nigel -

Wright, Duffy: When the chief of staff becomes the story - The Globe and Mail


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Translation: as usual, you've got nothing.


If 14 minutes of your time is too exhaustive then this little ditty from that Rabid Lefty Rex might do the trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdlShwb7UT0


----------



## groovetube

we all knew there'd come days, and soon, where all the howls of accountability, good governance, etc etc would become a big joke.

Majority governments, this always happens. No matter who's in power. But, I have to say, the meltdowns by the conservatives, so far take the prize.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> we all knew there'd come days, and soon, where all the howls of accountability, good governance, etc etc would become a big joke.


Where've you been? Harper's claims of accountability didn't survive his first week as PM. This latest example is just more of the same from a PM who's contemptuous of Parliament, and contemptuous of Canadians.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

These buffoons are making lyin' Brian's admin look very good in comparison. 

Still, no indication of cash being pocketed at this juncture.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Where've you been? Harper's claims of accountability didn't survive his first week as PM. This latest example is just more of the same from a PM who's contemptuous of Parliament, and contemptuous of Canadians.


well -I- know it, and -you- know it. It just needed to get to a fever pitch to rub their noses in the crap before any of them would see it.

But obviously some still refuse to see it.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> Where've you been? Harper's claims of accountability didn't survive his first week as PM. This latest example is just more of the same from a PM who's contemptuous of Parliament, and contemptuous of Canadians.


It is interesting how OGL wants politicians off the public teat. 

OGL revoked the amount of tax money awarded to political party for each vote that party garnered on voting day.

OGL retained the tax money paid to a political party to offset campaign expenses when the threshold of popularity is reached.

Now low and behold we see the largest largess burden on the taxpayer is the political hacks, bagmen and fund raisers such as Duffy or Pam Wallin in the Canadian Senate. Then there is the recently deceased Senator Finley, the team took one for him and another Senator with regard to the Conservative Party's "in and out" scheme of cheating on election laws to steal an election.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> sorry but that's not what happened.


That is *exactly* what happened.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> That is *exactly* what happened.


On *your* planet perhaps.


----------



## bryanc

Seriously, I'm convinced there are people who inhabit a mirror universe; a universe where science is lies, Harper and other conservatives are honest, corporations can be trusted to clean up after themselves, the free market serves society, guns are good, privatized health care works, wealth trickles down, and sh*t flows uphill. This is the only explanation for the people who vote for the PCs and Republicans.


----------



## i-rui

some conservatives buy the blue kool aid by the litre, others buy it by the gallon.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> some conservatives buy the blue kool aid by the litre, others buy it by the gallon.


Fear not. King Harpo is ordering it tandem tanker loads.


----------



## bryanc

Maybe they'll push through a pipeline.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> On *your* planet perhaps.


We're not sure what planet that is, since just about everyone is saying otherwise.

Waste of time.


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> Seriously, I'm convinced there are people who inhabit a mirror universe; a universe where science is lies, Harper and other conservatives are honest, corporations can be trusted to clean up after themselves, the free market serves society, guns are good, privatized health care works, wealth trickles down, and sh*t flows uphill. This is the only explanation for the people who vote for the PCs and Republicans.


That place is called reality, instead of the drug induced stupor that lefties inhabit.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> That place is called reality, instead of the drug induced stupor that lefties inhabit.



Cue: Ahhh *Rob* ah *Ford*?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> That place is called reality, instead of the drug induced stupor that lefties inhabit.


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Well you righties seem to have a thing for crack. :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> On *your* planet perhaps.





groovetube said:


> We're not sure what planet that is, since just about everyone is saying otherwise.
> 
> Waste of time.


According to [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdlShwb7UT0&feature=player_embedded]Rex Murphy: Mike Duffy and that $90,000 cheque - YouTube[/ame] three of'em are not on a planet but are in outer space could be there is a fourth in space or...hopefully...maybe even more.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Doin' the Wall Streeet Shuffle! *Da Da Da*!

Canada Real Time

Wait until they hear about Ford!


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Doin' the Wall Streeet Shuffle! *Da Da Da*!
> 
> Canada Real Time
> 
> Wait until they hear about Ford!


skippy, skippy, skippy! You expect some here to follow facts and chronology?...at the same time? WOW! You should stop the Wall Street Shuffle and start singing High Hopes* [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TwS-YTZ_i8]Frank Sinatra and Eddie Hodges - High Hopes - YouTube[/ame]



*Be very cautious lest ye be accused of promoting drug references by some on the right.


----------



## Macfury

With all the gloomy Guses posting here, you'd think we weren't getting oil and gas pipelines to the Pacific or something!


----------



## BigDL

Talk about Pam Wallin being the next one on the list. CBC Newsworld just announced that Senator Pam Wallin has recused herself from the Conservative Caucus.

Sen. Pamela Wallin recuses herself from Conservative caucus | CTV News

I starting to think when Harper has all of his "problem child" senators in the Independent Senator" status, not to mention one Liberal Senator, will he call the cops. Will Harper call the RCMP in to investigate these Senators and thereby hide from answering questions.

"I would like to answer the Leader of the Opposition's question as the matter is part of an active police investigation (or later before the courts) and would be improper for me to comment at this time, as the Prime Minister."

This is getting funner and funner.


----------



## chimo

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Prediction time - Wallin's next.


Great prediction! Go buy your lottery tickets now!


----------



## i-rui

I wonder if sugar daddy Nigel cut her a big fat cheque as well?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Next up. Nigel. 

http://youtu.be/gXNhL4J_S00


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Rumblings that Harper is considering proroguing parliament in June🙈🙉🙊


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Rumblings that Harper is considering proroguing parliament in June🙈🙉🙊


June would be the normal time for summer recess. He could prorogue but OGL would loose his legislation on the docket if not passed. We shall have to wait and see.

At this point I am waiting for Question Period on Tuesday. That should supply some entertainment. 

Set your DVR's (2 PM EDST) to the CPAC channel as supplied by your cable/satellite provider. Better yet set the DVR and settle in with some, "Popcorn and Beer," to see the revelry unfold.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I starting to think when Harper has all of his "problem child" senators in the Independent Senator" status, not to mention one Liberal Senator, will he call the cops.


A Liberal senator? I'm calling 911.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

*Damning findings removed from Sen. Mike Duffy's audit report: documents*

_The Senate’s internal economy committee sanitized the original audit of Sen. Mike Duffy’s expenses to remove damning findings, documents obtained by CTV News show.

A confidential report obtained by CTV’s Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife shows the original version of Duffy’s audit found that the senator broke the Senate’s “very clear” and “unambiguous” residency rules.

(snip)

Sources say the whitewash was part of a backroom deal with Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s chief of staff, Nigel Wright._​
(CTV News)


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Rumblings that *Harper is considering proroguing parliament in June*🙈🙉🙊





BigDL said:


> June would be the normal time for summer recess. He could prorogue but OGL would loose his legislation on the docket if not passed. We shall have to wait and see.
> 
> At this point I am waiting for Question Period on Tuesday. That should supply some entertainment.
> 
> Set your DVR's (2 PM EDST) to the CPAC channel as supplied by your cable/satellite provider. Better yet set the DVR and settle in with some, "Popcorn and Beer," to see the revelry unfold.


The House is scheduled to rise for the summer on June 7th anyway (with the possability of going until June 21st at the latest) so there would be very little to be gained by doing so.

The Government House Leader, Peeter Van Loan is proposing to extend sitting hours for the remaining weeks to push through legisaltion that is outstanding. If that happens in my estimation what we will see over the summer is a major Cabinet shuffle and then as soon as the House reconveens in the fall Harper will prorogue the House for a new Speech from the Thorne and a reset on the Parlliamentary agenda.

That's what I suspect at least.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's official. Nigel has resigned. 

Who's next?

Nigel Wright, chief of staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, has just issued a statement announcing his resignation:

“In light of the controversy surrounding my handling of matters involving Senator Duffy, the Prime Minister has accepted my resignation as Chief of Staff.

“My actions were intended solely to secure the repayment of funds, which I considered to be in the public interest, and I accept sole responsibility. I did not advise the Prime Minister of the means by which Sen. Duffy’s expenses were repaid, either before or after the fact.

“I regret the impact of this matter on the Government, our Caucus, and all of my colleagues, for whom I have the highest regard. I came to Ottawa to do my part in providing good government for Canada, and that is all that I ever wanted and worked for in this role.”


----------



## groovetube

like dominoes.

Yeah. Nothing to see here.

And today:
Job grant program advertised by Harper government doesn't yet exist | CTV News

But we already knew the goverment was spending tons of our money selling their brand to us.

Unfreakingbelievable.


----------



## iMouse

Does anyone still above the dirt believe that the PM didn't know?

This guy knows everything, because he controls *everything*.

Must be a Golden Handshake package coming-up.


----------



## groovetube

yeah, only the gullible would swallow that.

There's no way the PM didn't know.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It's official. Nigel has resigned.
> 
> Who's next?
> 
> Nigel Wright, chief of staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, has just issued a statement announcing his resignation:
> 
> “In light of the controversy surrounding my handling of matters involving Senator Duffy, the Prime Minister has accepted my resignation as Chief of Staff.
> 
> “My actions were intended solely to secure the repayment of funds, which I considered to be in the public interest, and I accept sole responsibility. I did not advise the Prime Minister of the means by which Sen. Duffy’s expenses were repaid, either before or after the fact.
> 
> “I regret the impact of this matter on the Government, our Caucus, and all of my colleagues, for whom I have the highest regard. I came to Ottawa to do my part in providing good government for Canada, and that is all that I ever wanted and worked for in this role.”


I'm of the opinion OGL will call the Cops Tuesday morning on the Independent Senators to thwart having to deal with tough questions and OLG's brand.


----------



## groovetube

remember when OGL forced a 3rd party to run Native expenses?

Good times then eh.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Man this will make someone's toupee even greyer. OMD PMSH has sent out the junior spokespeople as fodder for the journalists. 

Caucus meeting on Tuesday morning and then off to Peru for a little Andean hoe down.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

New COS Novak used to sleep in Harper's garage. 

Good luck righting this sinking ship.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

*....and now this.....*

*Mike Duffy tried to influence CRTC decision on Sun Media: source*



> Sen. Mike Duffy attempted to influence the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission’s upcoming decision involving the right-leaning Sun News Network, a source has told CTV News.
> 
> A well-placed source told CTV’s Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife that Duffy approached a Conservative insider with connections to the CRTC three weeks ago to discuss Sun Media, which is asking the federal regulator to grant its news channel “mandatory carriage,” or guaranteed placement on basic cable and satellite packages.
> 
> The move would boost Sun News Network’s profile and revenues.
> 
> “You know people at the CRTC,” the insider quoted Duffy as saying. “This is an important decision on Sun Media. They have to play with the team and support Sun Media’s request.”


(CTV)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *....and now this.....*
> 
> *Mike Duffy tried to influence CRTC decision on Sun Media: source*
> 
> 
> 
> (CTV)


That is old news (5 days old now approximately)... you can be forgiven though because you are an expat.


----------



## CubaMark

Darnit. Google's "realtime coverage" leaves a lot to be desired... I missed this the first time 'round. Move along, nothing to see here....


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> like dominoes.
> 
> *Yeah. Nothing to see here.*
> 
> And today:
> Job grant program advertised by Harper government doesn't yet exist | CTV News
> 
> But we already knew the goverment was spending tons of our money selling their brand to us.
> 
> Unfreakingbelievable.


I never said this, what I said was:



screature said:


> Once again *much to ado about very little. *Typical of Robert Fife though he almost always breaks a story before he does a proper investigation. The guy is a hack.
> 
> PM's chief of staff paid off Mike Duffy Senate expenses


Which is what I still believe.

Nigel Wright is a multimillionaire. 

Senator Duffy didn't have the funds to payback the money to the government. So Nigel Wright the multimillionaire offered to give a gift/loan to Duffy .

So in an misbegotten notion (Wright should have known better and thus that is why I don't believe the PM knew about the deal and why Wright resigned) Wright offered to help Duffy out, as $90K is pocket change to him.

In Wright's mind he was offering a comrade in arms help.

So it isn't like there was anything in it for Wright beyond helping his fellow in arms (and trying to assist Duffy to continue to fund raise for the party), there was not influence peddling or the like.

It was very bad judgment to be sure and the CPC was clearly in ad hoc mode and quite frankly one of the reasons why they were is because PMO is generally run on a day to day basis by smart kids who don't have the communications experience to do the job effectively. Communications is and always has been the weakness of this administration and I have said so for a long time.

All that aside Wright, Wallin, and Dufy have all done the correct thing by falling on their swords. Wright is the only one to suffer financially by doing so (not really but anyway).

Now Wallin and Dufy should follow suite and resign from the Senate for a way forward.

IMO the story about Wright was "much to ado about very little" but clearly it was the straw that broke the camel's back as it was already carrying so much crap.

Just to ad, the Government is lucky that this is all happening just before the House is to rise before the summer.


----------



## groovetube

just imagine for a second that this was the liberals we were talking about.

Then, it certainly wouldn't be much ado about nothing.

Personally, I think it's just one more example of what's wrong in this government, these players certainly are not autonomous players here. And then, there is the issue of Duffy working on the tory campaign while expensing to the senate.

I bet that's one of the reasons for the quick payout, so this doesn't come to light. And I for one, don't believe for one second that the PM didn't know about this, anyone who works in government knows only too well the tight micromanagement of this PM and his office.

No joke.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *just imagine for a second that this was the liberals we were talking about.
> 
> Then, it certainly wouldn't be much ado about nothing.*
> 
> Personally, I think it's just one more example of what's wrong in this government,* these players certainly are not autonomous players here.* *And then, there is the issue of Duffy working on the tory campaign while expensing to the senate.*
> 
> I bet that's one of the reasons for the quick payout, so this doesn't come to light. And I for one, don't believe for one second that the PM didn't know about this, *anyone who works in government knows only too well the tight micromanagement of this PM and his office.*
> 
> No joke.


It would be of course, it's politic and the media. It doesn't mean you can't have a differing point of view... you most likely would if the tables were turned and were actually involved with the on goings of Parliament.

No, what about Wawara, seems your memory is selective at best.

Yes that seems to be another of Duffy's sins.

Of which you are not and so you choose to listen to to your own compatriots of which I can only imagine lean a little to the left...

Sorry, I will believe my own first hand experience before I accept a 3rd hand statement from those who purportedly know others that work at Parliament.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sorry but everyone I know who works at parliament knows this. Even people who don't are aware if this..

Lets be honest here, i's common knowledge. You might as well argue that the sky is green 

Do I know for 100% that Harper knew? No. But given his immediate defence of what's clearly is against the rules (as has been pointed out already), and his well known top diwn control, I don't think anyone can say with any authority that it isn't likely.

Bull.


----------



## chimo

screature said:


> All that aside Wright, Wallin, and Dufy have all done the correct thing by falling on their swords. Wright is the only one to suffer financially by doing so (not really but anyway).


I would suggest that Wright was the only one who fell on his sword. Duffy and Wallin fell on their thumbtacks. Luckily (for them), their Senate robes prevented skin penetration.



screature said:


> Now Wallin and Dufy should follow suite and resign from the Senate for a way forward.


Agreed.


----------



## Birdwatcher

Before I joined, I read the thread about people leaving ehMac and frankly wondered why such a thread would exist. I joined in spite of that, but this post stuck in my mind from that thread.

I've finally figured out to whom it referred, from a couple of very recent posts in this thread.


----------



## groovetube

It's always the other guy.

Especially if you dislike his opinions.


----------



## Sonal

PM’s former legal adviser arranged deal for Wright to give Duffy $90K | CTV News


----------



## groovetube

And this is merely what we know about.


----------



## arminia

EI board appointees made banned donations to Conservatives - Politics - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

arminia said:


> EI board appointees made banned donations to Conservatives - Politics - CBC News


Having worked with a large corporation that maintained an employee do/don't hand book that filled three large catalogue size loose leaf binders, I am quite willing to believe that most of these individuals had no clue about the regulation in question. 

Since the amounts seem to be within otherwise legal guidelines, I do not believe the referees integrity should be called into question over the donations.

OTOH If there is any evidence of a politician influencing decisions made by these boards then heads should indeed roll. However the article does not in any way suggest or imply that.


----------



## Dr.G.

A Conservative senator from NL, Elizabeth Marshall, is asking the Ethics Committee to look into her salary. On top of her $135,000 salary, she gets an additional $11,000 as the chair of the Senate Selection Committee which oversees the selections to other Senate committees. Her committee has met for 15 minutes in the past two years, earning her $22,000. She gets an additional $11,000 for being the Tory Whip in the Senate. She is asking the Ethics Committee to make sure that all of her salary is appropriate, given the situation in the Senate these days, and the fact that the committee did not meet at all in 2012, but she still received $11,000. Right now, the committee's main work is going through the thousands of applications from Canadian taxpayers who want to apply for her job. Personally, I am not one of these taxpayers wanting her job ........... in that I earned more than $22,000 over the past two years ........................ but then again, I did work far more than 15 minutes these past two years. tptptptp


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Having worked with a large corporation that maintained an employee do/don't hand book that filled three large catalogue size loose leaf binders, I am quite willing to believe that most of these individuals had no clue about the regulation in question.
> 
> Since the amounts seem to be within otherwise legal guidelines, I do not believe the referees integrity should be called into question over the donations.
> 
> OTOH If there is any evidence of a politician influencing decisions made by these boards then heads should indeed roll. However the article does not in any way suggest or imply that.


I'm sorry but when you're an appointee to a government agency like that there's no excuse for not considering rules when doing something so basic and obvious as political party donations.


----------



## iMouse

Dr.G. said:


> *theft*


How about a per diem sum for putting their ass in a seat?

About $500 a day should be sufficient, as they are probably in Ottawa anyway.

That should assuage their greed.


----------



## Dr.G.

iMouse said:


> How about a per diem sum for putting their ass in a seat?
> 
> About $500 a day should be sufficient, as they are probably in Ottawa anyway.
> 
> That should assuage their greed.


Well, Sen. Marshall is asking the Ethics Comm. to rule on her salary. If they come back with "$22,000 for 15 minutes of work is not right", we fear that she will say "What, me worry? ........... take me off the public dole for this role." Still, she will keep her extra pay since she did put in the 15 minutes of work. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau en route to massive majority: new poll | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

apparently, this just in, 'much ado about nothing'. :lmao:

oh come on, I'm simply enjoying it.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha.

Nice one.


----------



## groovetube

Federal court finds fraud in six ridings in last election

Fraud. Another conservative accomplishment!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Federal court finds fraud in six ridings in last election
> 
> Fraud. Another conservative accomplishment!


Yep really bad indeed. Really, Really bad! I hope they can find the guilty culprits.

But then again all things point back to the PMO and what Harper knew don't they...

So it is a fait accompli... for the media and the Opposition (same thing).

Harper should have known. 

This is what the media and the Opposition (same thing) will spin going forward... 

Guarrannteed!


----------



## groovetube

Well the contacts did come from the CPC database.

But I love how when the conservatives get caught red handed, it's somehow the work of some rogue staffer. But if the liberals did it, well, send on down the party prison bus because they all should be cuffed and dragged to jail.

It just seems that just about every other day, there's some finding of shady deals, money changing hands against the rules, fav conservatives being protected, it's constant.

I have this feeling that now that the press has woken up and stopped kissing this governments behind so much, we're going to see quite a lot of this now. This is probably just the opening act...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Justin Trudeau en route to massive majority: new poll | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> apparently, this just in, 'much ado about nothing'. :lmao:
> 
> *oh come on, I'm simply enjoying it*.


Ok fair enough... but you also know the reality.

So have fun and gloat while you can.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Well the contacts did come from the CPC database.
> *
> But I love how when the conservatives get caught red handed, it's somehow the work of some rogue staffer.* But if the liberals did it, well, send on down the party prison bus because they all should be cuffed and dragged to jail.*
> 
> *It just seems that just about every other day, there's some finding of shady deals, money changing hands against the rules, fav conservatives being protected, it's constant.
> 
> I have this feeling that now that the press has woken up and stopped kissing this governments behind so much, we're going to see quite a lot of this now. This is probably just the opening act...*


Sure they did. Do you know how many people have access to it? Apparently not.

So you have a chip on your shoulder stemming from Gomery I guess?

That is certainly your hope... and you know what they say about hope... it springs eternal.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sure they did. Do you know how many people have access to it? Apparently not.
> 
> So you have a chip on your shoulder stemming from Gomery I guess?
> 
> That is certainly your hope... and you know what they say about hope... it springs eternal.


ah, see you're looking for an out here. This whole idea someone went in to screw things up for them like this is simply, ludicrous. No, asinine. If it's truly a problem, then why hasn't anyone thought of securing access?

Right.

As for a chip on my shoulder, hell I helped vote them out. A sagging corrupt government (not to mention I disliked Martin as a PM), it was time for them to go.

Just as it's fast becoming time for a timeout for these conservatives. Honestly, if they truly ran things as well as everyone pretends they did, I'd have less of a problem with them being in government. Because, let's face it, the differences between the cons and libs, often are a whole lot of pap conjured up for us stooges to fight about.

And excellent centrist government, truly good for Canada, all Canadians, yes hope does, spring eternal.

If it happened to be a party that called themselves conservative that accomplished that, truly, yes. I'd vote for them. I don't care if they called themselves yogic flyers really at the end of the day.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The trouble with liars is that sometimes liars have a hard time constructing their lies. OMD PMSH is a liar.

Politics News | hilltimes.com


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Federal court finds fraud in six ridings in last election
> 
> Fraud. Another conservative accomplishment!


You might want to read the judge's statement again. it doesn't quite fit the Postmedia headline:



> I make no finding that the Conservative Party of Canada or any CPC candidates or RMG and RackNine Inc., were directly involved in any campaign to mislead voters


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> You might want to read the judge's statement again. it doesn't quite fit the Postmedia headline:


Another simpleton reading on your part. Aside from a ruling that says none of the nefarious activities affected the outcomes in the ridings the judge surely heaped a lot of praise on the Conservatives for their conduct during the election and their helpful manner afterword. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Here's the ruling -

Federal Court ruling on Council of Canadians robocall case


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Ok fair enough... but you also know the reality.
> 
> So have fun and gloat while you can.


Of course I'll gloat. I weathered the whole drum beating etc (and still do despite the evidence to the contrary) on how only the liberals do this kind of thing, when the tories are now practically redefining the corruption displayed by the liberals.

When I see conservatives try and defend this toxic crap, I realize, they have zero credibility.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The *Evil Doers*

HarperHudakFordHatTrickBBQ.mov - YouTube

Guilty!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's the same lot of buffoons unedited and in colour! Ah the good ol' days!
Stephen Harper and Rob Ford hoping for Conservative Hat Trick via Tim Hudak - YouTube


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another Harper appointee in big doo doo. 
Poor choices all coming to fruition. 

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=8441352


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another Harper appointee in big doo doo.
> Poor choices all coming to fruition.
> 
> Former MUHC head Porter arrested in Panama





> The former *head of the McGill University Health Centre*, Arthur Porter,


I guess it is time to blame the weather on Harper...

I would think that appointing the former head of the McGill University Health Centre would have been a good bet...

One would think this was a reputable person... seems maybe not and yet Harper is to blame for their individual transgressions...

Same as it ever was... 

Unfortunately we just have to vote for the least worst in 2015... At this point I would still vote for the devil that I do know vs. the devil that I don't.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another Harper appointee in big doo doo.
> Poor choices all coming to fruition.
> 
> Former MUHC head Porter arrested in Panama


Link leads only to this, your point?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I guess it is time to blame the weather on Harper...
> 
> I would think that appointing the former head of the McGill University Health Centre would have been a good bet...
> 
> One would think this was a reputable person... seems maybe not and yet Harper is to blame for their individual transgressions...
> 
> Same as it ever was...
> 
> Unfortunately we just have to vote for the least worst in 2015... At this point I would still vote for the devil that I do know vs. the devil that I don't.


Actually if you had read the full story on this, there was plenty of evidence of his questionable activities -before- Harper appointed him. This was quite the story on a full show recently. Plenty has been written about it.

You should really check it out. It's a real eye opener.

McGill should have also done a better job of checking this guy out...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Actually if you had read the full story on this, there was plenty of evidence of his questionable activities -before- Harper appointed him. This was quite the story on a full show recently. Plenty has been written about it.
> 
> You should really check it out. It's a real eye opener.
> 
> McGill should have also done a better job of checking this guy out...


Your post does nothing to inform my post... seems in the Harper era we need to go back to doing DNA checks before someone is appointed... else woe be tied... no individual accountability... 'cause everything will be blamed on the PMO... no matter how long ago the transgression.

Same as it ever was... now you can gloat some more.


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps simply better vetting would help.

No need for DNA.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Your post does nothing to inform my post... seems in the Harper era we need to go back to doing DNA checks before someone is appointed... else woe be tied... no individual accountability... 'cause everything will be blamed on the PMO... no matter how long ago the transgression.
> 
> Same as it ever was... now you can gloat some more.


I guess some of these characters sit up all night poking under small rocks so they can scare themselves with spooky stories of "Cons gone bad."


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Perhaps simply better vetting would help.
> 
> No need for DNA.


Alfonso Gagliano no need for vetting there... 

Same s**t different party. Yep JT is the country's saviour.


----------



## Aurora

It's funny that on this thread (and other threads) there is no mention of ORNGE, ehealth, gas plant cancellations or the green energy act and they account for billions as opposed to Duffy's $90,000. Oh right. They are Liberal transgressions. Just sayin'


----------



## Sonal

Aurora said:


> It's funny that on this thread (and other threads) there is no mention of ORNGE, ehealth, gas plant cancellations or the green energy act and they account for billions as opposed to Duffy's $90,000. Oh right. They are Liberal transgressions. Just sayin'


Well ORNGE, eHealth, the gas plant cancellations and the Green Energy Act are all Ontario gaffes, and this thread is Federal. There was an Ontario thread somewhere, but it doesn't seem to attract much attention outside of election time.

But I have a friend who was fired from ORNGE and also testified against them if you want some dirt. I told him his being fired from ORNGE is actually a mark of his integrity. 

And eHealth is probably the reason we're bitching about Rob Ford in Toronto instead of bitching about George Smitherman, so it's not like that was forgotten either.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Well ORNGE, eHealth, the gas plant cancellations and the Green Energy Act are all Ontario gaffes, and this thread is Federal. There was an Ontario thread somewhere, but it doesn't seem to attract much attention outside of election time.
> 
> But I have a friend who was fired from ORNGE and also testified against them if you want some dirt. I told him his being fired from ORNGE is actually a mark of his integrity.
> 
> And eHealth is probably the reason we're bitching about Rob Ford in Toronto instead of bitching about George Smitherman, so it's not like that was forgotten either.


Remembered, but never mentioned?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Remembered, but never mentioned?


Apparently.

Perhaps so universally seen as egregious that no one bothered to argue over it?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Alfonso Gagliano no need for vetting there...
> 
> Same s**t different party. Yep JT is the country's saviour.


adscam! adscam! adscam! Yup never gets old does it. When in doubt, just pull up something from a decade ago to deflect attention. Classic.

And here I thought this party was the one that was supposed to be better! Lowered expectations!

So what you're saying is, might as well vote liberal, same crap! Except Harper spent way more, bloated government way more, and let's face it, having been convicted of electoral fraud, and the recent court case concluding many conservative ridings committed fraud doesn't look so hot either.



Sonal said:


> Apparently.
> 
> Perhaps so universally seen as egregious that no one bothered to argue over it?


I've never liked McGuinty from the day he was chosen liberal leader. He became premier by default, best of bad choices, take your pick.

But cons are quick to find anything, everything to toss up in the air for a distraction. Speaking of BILLIONS, whatever happened to the missing 3.1 billion Harper and co were trying to explain? Did they ever find it?


----------



## groovetube

So much for change eh?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Apparently.
> 
> Perhaps so universally seen as egregious that no one bothered to argue over it?


I do love to see NDPers jumping into this pool, admitting they don't like some Liberals as proof that they're simply not just anti-Conservative.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Well ORNGE, eHealth, the gas plant cancellations and the Green Energy Act are all Ontario gaffes, and this thread is Federal. There was an Ontario thread somewhere, but it doesn't seem to attract much attention outside of election time.
> 
> But I have a friend who was fired from ORNGE and also testified against them if you want some dirt. I told him his being fired from ORNGE is actually a mark of his integrity.
> 
> And eHealth is probably the reason we're bitching about Rob Ford in Toronto instead of bitching about George Smitherman, so it's not like that was forgotten either.


Actually the way I read it the name of the thread is the Canadian Political Thread, the provinces are in Canada so I see provincial politics being fair game for discussion in this thread. No where does it say the Canadian Federal Politics Thread.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Actually the way I read it the name of the thread is the Canadian Political Thread, the provinces are in Canada so I see provincial politics being fair game for discussion in this thread. No where does it say the Canadian Federal Politics Thread.


Perhaps not, but generally Federal politics has dominated this thread, and certainly my impression is that this primarily the discussion of Federal issues.

If we were including all politics in Canada, I'm sure the antics of Mayor Ford would be distracting to many of you outside of Toronto.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> adscam! adscam! adscam! Yup never gets old does it. When in doubt, just pull up something from a decade ago to deflect attention. Classic.
> 
> And here I thought this party was the one that was supposed to be better! Lowered expectations!
> 
> So what you're saying is, might as well vote liberal, same crap! Except Harper spent way more, bloated government way more, and let's face it, having been convicted of electoral fraud, and the recent court case concluding many conservative ridings committed fraud doesn't look so hot either.


Spent what the Opposition demanded and complain that they aren't spending enough... and then the unions and NDP (same thing) cry bloody murder when there are layoffs... no one was convicted of electoral fraud, look it up... once again there is no court ruling that conservative ridings committed fraud, look at what was actually said.


----------



## groovetube

yep, Canadian politics not Ontario, Alberta, or the big mayor ford stuff. Prefer to keep those from turning this one into a mess.

One good reason why perhaps politics should be a sub-forum of this one.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Perhaps not, but generally Federal politics has dominated this thread, and certainly my impression is that this primarily the discussion of Federal issues.
> 
> If we were including all politics in Canada, I'm sure the antics of Mayor Ford would be distracting to many of you outside of Toronto.


The antics of Ford are brought up here just not that much because there is a thread dedicated to him.

The results of provincial elections have also been discussed as well as the shenanigans of the PQ in Quebec. Personally I see no reason to limit the discussion to only federal politics.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> yep, Canadian politics not Ontario, Alberta, or the big mayor ford stuff. *Prefer to keep those from turning this one into a mess.
> *
> One good reason why perhaps politics should be a sub-forum of this one.


:lmao: It isn't already?


----------



## groovetube

sure is.

But it can get a whole lot worse.

The only reason I suggested a poli sub forum was so there can be threads on say Ontario politics etc and it doesn't totally clutter everything else.


----------



## screature

I guess I just don't see there being enough traffic these days to worry about it getting cluttered.


----------



## groovetube

yes but my OCD screams unless it gets organized.


----------



## iMouse

Tim was a sheepdog in another life.


----------



## BigDL

It must be tough for conservatives. Conservatives being in Government it seem OGL and his disciples after so long in opposition it seems they can't break the old habits.

With the mess with Senate Scandals and the coverup scandal, conservatives want scream their outrage! It's in their DNA to yelp. But what to do, what to do?

Let's yell about Liberals, yeah that's the ticket. Where are the Liberals? Ok let's start on the Provincial Governments. . However not every province has Liberals. 
NL nope! 
NS sorry. 
NB Progressive Conservatives again. 
PEI sure Liberals there. PEI really? 
Quebec darn! 
Ontario yeah Liberals there. Little wonder that's been mentioned. 
Manitoba no luck there.
Saskatchewan more Conservatives.
Alberta Progressive Conservatives and more Conservatives 
Those darn folks in BC have a Liberal Government, shoot they're really Conservatives. 

Darn thwarted nearly at every turn. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I guess I just don't see there being enough traffic these days to worry about it getting cluttered.


Once they get their marching orders from _Now Magazine_ and _The Tyee_, there's no stopping 'em!

Still, if traffic drops off further, we can just have The Everything Else thread.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> It must be tough for conservatives. Conservatives being in Government it seem OGL and his disciples after so long in opposition it seems they can't break the old habits.
> 
> With the mess with Senate Scandals and the coverup scandal, conservatives want scream their outrage! It's in their DNA to yelp. But what to do, what to do?
> 
> Let's yell about Liberals, yeah that's the ticket. Where are the Liberals? Ok let's start on the Provincial Governments. . However not every province has Liberals.
> NL nope!
> NS sorry.
> NB Progressive Conservatives again.
> PEI sure Liberals there. PEI really?
> Quebec darn!
> Ontario yeah Liberals there. Little wonder that's been mentioned.
> Manitoba no luck there.
> Saskatchewan more Conservatives.
> Alberta Progressive Conservatives and more Conservatives
> Those darn folks in BC have a Liberal Government, shoot they're really Conservatives.
> 
> Darn thwarted nearly at every turn. :lmao:


It certainly has gotten a little quieter from conservatives, they now see things as high fiving here, I guess they're simply not used to receiving what they used to do, y'know back in the days when they were all tap dancing during adscam... ahh the good ole days eh? Being in opposition so you can play the moral authority. I remember even the ones crying about OGL hissing the name lieberals, there were all kinds of names and catcalls, it was all ok then. I could only image the hidden remarks god forbid.

Honestly even I wouldn't have predicted the absolute arrogance, the screw you attitude this government has shown, spending our money on for their own uses, and far far more than adscam ever was... the flagrant breaking of promises not to mention the total lies, that their supporters simply line up to defend.

And here they thought, that it was the liberals that did that. But looky kooky, the conservatives have not only bested the liberals in the worst way, they've perfected it.

The manner in which they've thumbed their noses at us and did whatever the hell they wanted, spending recklessly for themselves, committed electoral fraud, whenever the hell they wanted, has given a new life on the term 'entitlement'.

But I have a feeling, that we're just seeing the opening act... we have another 2 years...


----------



## eMacMan

I am sure you have seen the new Duffy $90,000 bill. If not check it out here:
Yahoo! News Canada - Latest News & Headlines

But trust the BoC to turn the absurdly funny into something akin to obscene



> You can file this story under WTF? The Bank of Canada has actually written a letter to a political cartoonist asking him to delete an illustration of a $90,000 bill featuring Senator Mike Duffy's mug and a picture of the prime minister's former chief of staff Nigel Wright. (see above)
> The picture, of course, is a witty take on Wright personally funding Duffy’s repayment of $90,000 in improperly-claimed living expenses.
> *[ Related: CTV reporter chases PM’s former chief of staff Nigel Wright during early morning jog ]*
> According to the _Victoria Times-Columnist_, Dan Murphy's cartoon from last week — which was also featured at _Yahoo! Canada News_ — has raised the ire of the some under-worked bureaucrat at at the BoC.
> You have to get permission before reproducing a bank note image, the letter said, and Murphy didn’t ask.
> “Moreover,” it continued, “the bank will not approve requests where the reproduction tarnishes or diminishes the importance of currency to Canadians.”​ Sure, Murphy included the words: "Bank of Canada" in his illustration but it's a cartoon for heavens sake.
> "Tarnishes or diminishes the importance of currency to Canadians?" Are you kidding me?


----------



## iMouse

Maybe this could be considered to come under "sampling" guide-lines, as for copyrighted music. 

He should have been prepared for this, when he decided not to use "Bank of Harper".


----------



## eMacMan

iMouse said:


> Maybe this could be considered to come under "sampling" guide-lines, as for copyrighted music.
> 
> He should have been prepared for this, when he decided not to use "Bank of Harper".


So perfectly obvious with 20-20 hindsight. Hopefully with all the free publicity he can re-issue the bill giving credit where credit is due.


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper making things worse with silence over Mike Duffy | Full Comment | National Post

Can't say I'd be unhappy to see that... :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper making things worse with silence over Mike Duffy | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> Can't say I'd be unhappy to see that... :lmao:


I particularly like the reference to OMD PMSH's approval ratings dropping to the 1992 levels the cash man suffered. 

With 2 more years left there is the potential to out do the post bullroney performance where the electorate reduced the CONS to a breeding pair. Next time out Canadians have an opportunity to reduce them to 1 seat, guaranteeing the CONS extinction.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> With 2 more years left there is the potential to out do the post bullroney performance where the electorate reduced the CONS to a breeding pair..


And breed they did--into a majority!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Conservative government’s "culture of expediency" - nice line.

Conservative government


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Conservative government’s "culture of expediency" - nice line.
> 
> Conservative government


ouch.

Well, an election of too many counts of fraud in order to even get their majority, coupled with a screw you politic and a newly defined uber sense of entitlement, this can only really crash and burn, not in a good way.

I have said some time ago though, I really don't look forward to the hangover headache after we discover the unbelievable financial mess they've left us in at the end.

That's not going to be pretty, mark my words.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper making things worse with silence over Mike Duffy | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> Can't say I'd be unhappy to see that... :lmao:





> *People don’t make ethical choices in isolation. They take their cues from those around and above them*​ People don’t make ethical choices in isolation. They take their cues from those around and above them. Maybe Duffy’s expense padding had its roots in the Senate’s historically lax culture: indeed, given the absence of controls on senators’ expenses, it would be astonishing if only a couple of senators had succumbed to the temptation this presented.
> 
> 
> But the efforts to cover this up, like the obstruction of the robocalls investigation or the curious lack of due diligence in the Porter appointment, are suggestive of something else: a habit of looking the other way at bad behaviour, if not actually encouraging it; and, when it is brought to light, of denying, and minimizing, and explaining it away.
> 
> 
> This isn’t about a few senators padding their expense accounts, or  criminal acts on the part of one or two individuals, or even what the prime minister knew when. It’s the whole moral code of this government that’s in question. This isn’t just a problem, something to be fixed: it’s existential. Whatever the various official investigations may or may not turn up, questions about the government’s character are now deeply planted in the public mind, in a way it shows no sign of being able to deal with, or even comprehending.


Overall an excellent article. The above reflects my own thoughts. 

I can recall people telling me I was too cynical about Tricky Dick, history proved me not nearly cynical enough. Once again I am often accused of being too cynical about the current crop of crooks, both here and stateside. I am afraid history will once again prove I was really not cynical enough.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper appointee former senator Bert Brown claimed $43k in expenses during 2011 election!

Des frais de voyage de 43 000 $ pour l'ancien sénateur Bert Brown | HUGO DE GRANDPRÉ et JOËL-DENIS BELLAVANCE | Politique canadienne

Whoops! there goes another shoe.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bad timing for this Bert Brown promo Monty! LOL!
SOLBERG: Senate an old joke on Canadians | Column | Opinion | The London Free Press


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's getting late. Payback time. 

http://o.canada.com/2013/05/30/harp...oo-many-bridges-to-earn-benefit-of-the-doubt/


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It's getting late. Payback time.
> 
> Stephen Harper’s Conservatives burned too many bridges | canada.com


Like this is in any way surprising coming from Michael Den Tandt....

Except "payback time" is 2 years away...


----------



## groovetube

by the looks on Harper's face, it looks like payback has already begin...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper eats timbits.


----------



## Macfury

Finance Minister Flaherty comes to the rescue of Ontario taxpayers!

Flaherty nixes HST rise as way to pay for GTHA transit expansion - The Globe and Mail



> Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty is throwing a road block in front of Ontario’s plans to build new subways and rail lines in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.
> 
> Earlier this week, provincial transit agency Metrolinx released a report that recommended several methods of raising the $34-billion needed for the plan, including dedicating one per cent of the Harmonized Sales Tax to transit expansion.
> 
> Premier Kathleen Wynne has said that only residents of the GTHA will pay for transit expansion, and people in the rest of the province will not be asked to pony up.
> 
> But in a letter to Ontario Finance Minister Charles Sousa, Mr. Flaherty said he would not allow Queen’s Park to raise the HST only on GTHA residents. If the province moves forward with a tax hike, he said, it must be applied to the entire province.
> 
> “As you are well aware, the Comprehensive Integrated Tax Coordination Agreement signed by the Government of Ontario does not allow for the provincial component of the HST to vary between regions of the province,” Mr. Flaherty wrote, before going on to criticize Ontario for even musing about raising taxes.
> 
> In an earlier statement to the Globe, Mr. Flaherty said he is no fan of Metrolinx’s ideas: “As you all know, I do not believe in tax increases. Ontarians pay too much tax as it is,” he said.


Now this doesn't mean the ass end of McGinty won't threaten the entire province with a tax hike to pay for Toronto, but at least it ties her hands for the moment.


----------



## arminia

Duffy sought cabinet perks for 'expanded' party role, email says - Politics - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Wynne to Flaherty: Will feds now give more money to transit? | Toronto Star

What's funny about this whole thing, is the mayor's insistence on spending over 8 billion on a subway that has been shown to not have the ridership to even support it, for decades.

The things about having grandiose plans about building subways (and monorails...) is, you have to PAY for them. And when you're talking that many billions of dollars, cutting office expenses and plant watering services, just ain't gonna cover it.

Perhaps it worked out better on the dinner napkin in crayon.


----------



## Macfury

Wynne to Flaherty: Will feds now give more money to transit? | Toronto Star

This cracks me up. Ontario gets enough already. Let the riders pay for it.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Wynne to Flaherty: Will feds now give more money to transit? | Toronto Star
> 
> What's funny about this whole thing, is the mayor's insistence on spending over 8 billion on a subway that has been shown to not have the ridership to even support it, for decades.
> 
> The things about having grandiose plans about building subways (and monorails...) is, you have to PAY for them. And when you're talking that many billions of dollars, cutting office expenses and plant watering services, just ain't gonna cover it.
> 
> Perhaps it worked out better on the dinner napkin in crayon.


Seems Flaherty can't balance a budget and can't stay away from Ontario politics. 

In Parliament Flaherty, OGL and the rest of Conservatives can't give up being opposition.

it's little wonder they are mired in the mess they're in and can't move ahead, have to hit reset buttons and such. 

Tick, tick, tick October 2015 looms ever closer.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Seems Flaherty can't balance a budget and can't stay away from Ontario politics.
> 
> In Parliament Flaherty, OGL and the rest of Conservatives can't give up being opposition.
> 
> it's little wonder they are mired in the mess they're in and can't move ahead, have to hit reset buttons and such.
> 
> Tick, tick, tick October 2015 looms ever closer.


They ARE moving ahead. That's why you're scared!!


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Seems Flaherty can't balance a budget and can't stay away from Ontario politics.
> 
> In Parliament Flaherty, OGL and the rest of Conservatives can't give up being opposition.
> 
> it's little wonder they are mired in the mess they're in and can't move ahead, have to hit reset buttons and such.
> 
> Tick, tick, tick October 2015 looms ever closer.


Perhaps flaherty needs keep his nose out of provincial politics and focus on getting his own house in order. :lmao:


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Finance Minister Flaherty comes to the rescue of Ontario taxpayers!
> 
> Flaherty nixes HST rise as way to pay for GTHA transit expansion - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> Now this doesn't mean the ass end of McGinty won't threaten the entire province with a tax hike to pay for Toronto, but at least it ties her hands for the moment.


the irony is it was the Harris government who are largely responsible for the GTA's traffic woes, and Flaherty was in charge of the purse strings. Thanks to Harris , Ontario buried millions of dollars in a hole in the ground that was supposed to be the eglinton subway line and thanks to Flaherty the 407 was sold for pennies on the dollar, just so they could pretend to balance a budget. Somehow the common sense revolution became the definition of penny wise, pound foolish and Ontario is still paying for their legacy.

I hate all of the revenue tools Metrolinkx proposed. All of them stink. But that's the problem when a bunch of jackasses sell out an asset like the 407 and fill in a subway line. Kicking the can down the road doesn't solve problems. It just makes them exponentially worse, and we're left with really terrible choices like those suggested by Metrolinx to fix the Harris government's incompetence.


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> the irony is it was the Harris government who are largely responsible for the GTA's traffic woes, and Flaherty was in charge of the purse strings. Thanks to Harris , Ontario buried millions of dollars in a hole in the ground that was supposed to be the eglinton subway line and thanks to Flaherty the 407 was sold for pennies on the dollar, just so they could pretend to balance a budget. Somehow the common sense revolution became the definition of penny wise, pound foolish and Ontario is still paying for their legacy.
> 
> I hate all of the revenue tools Metrolinkx proposed. All of them stink. But that's the problem when a bunch of jackasses sell out an asset like the 407 and fill in a subway line. Kicking the can down the road doesn't solve problems. It just makes them exponentially worse, and we're left with really terrible choices like those suggested by Metrolinx to fix the Harris government's incompetence.


Well said.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> Perhaps it worked out better on the dinner napkin in crayon.


Perhaps is was a pipe dream?


Too soon? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> the irony is it was the Harris government who are largely responsible for the GTA's traffic woes, and Flaherty was in charge of the purse strings. Thanks to Harris , Ontario buried millions of dollars in a hole in the ground that was supposed to be the eglinton subway line and thanks to Flaherty the 407 was sold for pennies on the dollar, just so they could pretend to balance a budget. Somehow the common sense revolution became the definition of penny wise, pound foolish and Ontario is still paying for their legacy.
> 
> I hate all of the revenue tools Metrolinkx proposed. All of them stink. But that's the problem when a bunch of jackasses sell out an asset like the 407 and fill in a subway line. Kicking the can down the road doesn't solve problems. It just makes them exponentially worse, and we're left with really terrible choices like those suggested by Metrolinx to fix the Harris government's incompetence.


Not to mention ramming amalgamation on us, that didn't save us like it was supposed to, it seems the cons really screwed us big time.



iMouse said:


> Perhaps is was a pipe dream?
> 
> 
> Too soon? :lmao:


Hell no. :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

i-rui said:


> .... thanks to Flaherty the 407 was sold for pennies on the dollar, just so they could pretend to balance a budget. ...... that's the problem when a bunch of jackasses sell out an asset like the 407 and fill in a subway line. Kicking the can down the road doesn't solve problems......


Welcome to the legacy Nova Scotians are still dealing with - the privatization (Nova Scotia Power in 1992) of a crown asset ostensibly to balance the budget (which it didn't).

It is *insane* to privatize an essential service that is a crown corporation. They invariably are in a monopoly position and are guaranteed income streams in perpetuity. 

NS residents have been able to do nothing but grouse about ever-increasing power rates while watching NSP and its parent company, U.S.-based Emera, make obscene profits year-over-year.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Perhaps flaherty needs keep his nose out of provincial politics and focus on getting his own house in order. :lmao:


Good thing he is. The global economy is still in a slump, yet not only has Canada just posted the *best quarter of economic growth in two years*, it's our *seventh consecutive quarter of positive growth*.

Canada GDP grows at fastest pace since 2011 | Economy | News | Financial Post


----------



## jamesB

CubaMark said:


> Welcome to the legacy Nova Scotians are still dealing with - the privatization (Nova Scotia Power in 1992) of a crown asset ostensibly to balance the budget (which it didn't).
> 
> It is *insane* to privatize an essential service that is a crown corporation. They invariably are in a monopoly position and are guaranteed income streams in perpetuity.
> 
> NS residents have been able to do nothing but grouse about ever-increasing power rates while watching NSP and its parent company, U.S.-based Emera, make obscene profits year-over-year.


If you think that's bad take a look out here in BC, where in the last few years our provincial liberal gov. has sold off or privatized 
BC rail, the exclusive rail system to the north.
BC Ferries another company with a total monopoly
BC Hydro
BC liquor stores
and probably others I'm not aware of.


----------



## groovetube

Ha ha ha ha ha yeah oooohhh yeah everything's hunky dory with this scandal plagued government with record deficits and spending money faster than any in history. Yeah they can advise the province for sure!

Just how gullible are people??


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Welcome to the legacy Nova Scotians are still dealing with - the privatization (Nova Scotia Power in 1992) of a crown asset ostensibly to balance the budget (which it didn't).
> 
> It is *insane* to privatize an essential service that is a crown corporation. They invariably are in a monopoly position and are guaranteed income streams in perpetuity.
> 
> NS residents have been able to do nothing but grouse about ever-increasing power rates while watching NSP and its parent company, U.S.-based Emera, make obscene profits year-over-year.


What was the fiscal situation of Nova Scotia Power at the time? 

We have a similar situation here in Manitoba where the once very profitable Manitoba Hydro has been run into the ground by the provincial NDP. Their profits were raided, then they were taken deep into debt to put that money into general revenues to make it appear as though they were balancing the budget when they were really several billion in the whole. It's not pretty, but the next government here is probably going to have no choice but to sell what is now a serious liability in order to at least get something from it.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha yeah oooohhh yeah everything's hunky dory with this scandal plagued government with record deficits and spending money faster than any in history. Yeah they can advise the province for sure!
> 
> Just how gullible are people??


HEY, they are living life large, and don't give excrement about the voter's petty problems.

They spend the future like they have no progeny.


----------



## CubaMark

We've discussed the NSP privatization before in ehMac... here's a link to an opinion piece by the former NSP head. The commentors below the story do a decent job of addressing the main points. 

My perspective on the NSP situation: problems? Sure. Fix 'em. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> We've discussed the NSP privatization before in ehMac... here's a link to an opinion piece by the former NSP head. The commentors below the story do a decent job of addressing the main points.
> 
> My perspective on the NSP situation: problems? Sure. Fix 'em. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Thanks for the link. Sounds like a frighteningly similar situation:



> In our case, we were a drain on the government. While we might have done a fairly good job of maintaining rates at an acceptable level, over time, NSP had added close to $4 billion of debt guaranteed by the province.


----------



## iMouse

heavyall said:


> Thanks for the link. Sounds like a frighteningly similar situation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In our case, we were a drain on the government. While we might have done a fairly good job of maintaining rates at an acceptable level, over time, NSP had added close to *$4 billion of debt* guaranteed by the province.
Click to expand...

Was there a referendum on that sum?

Rhetorical question. Please excuse.


----------



## CubaMark

Let's just say that Comeau's remembering (or relating) of things may be a wee bit suspect...


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the irony is it was the Harris government who are largely responsible for the GTA's traffic woes...


I would blame the GTA. They simply aren't interested in building or expanding roads.



i-rui said:


> ...Flaherty was in charge of the purse strings. Thanks to Harris , Ontario buried millions of dollars in a hole in the ground that was supposed to be the eglinton subway line and thanks to Flaherty the 407 was sold for pennies on the dollar, just so they could pretend to balance a budget


The 407 was never sold. The consortium purchased a 99-year lease and the road will return to the province eventually and not for pennies on the dollar. I agree that the lease was sold too cheaply, but this was largely a matter of early inexperience with the model, not deliberate malfeasance. The current value of the remainder of the lease, sold today would be about $10 billion.



i-rui said:


> I hate all of the revenue tools Metrolinkx proposed. All of them stink. But that's the problem when a bunch of jackasses sell out an asset like the 407 and fill in a subway line. Kicking the can down the road doesn't solve problems. It just makes them exponentially worse, and we're left with really terrible choices like those suggested by Metrolinx to fix the Harris government's incompetence.


The whole idea of building public transit and then making road travel prohibitively expensive also stinks. Essentially, what the province is asking Ontarians to do is to fund this massive transit boondoggle, then also ensure that it becomes too expensive foe them to drive their cars so they will be forced to take transit. 

When we hear about GTA "gridlock" and the massive cost to to the GTA, we're not talking about citizens who still manage to get to work on time. We're talking about businesses who are angry that it takes too long to deliver goods on the highways. How will the province solve that? By clearing the peons off the roads, to make way for trucks and people so wealthy that no level of toll is too expensive for them. This is a bad deal all around.

If businesses are peeved about gridlock, they should be the first to offer to pay to solve _their_ problem. If transit is a great option, then build more transit, largely funded by fares.

Regarding that Eglinton subway line, it sounded like a bad idea from the start--a way for Bob Rae to buy off the west end after giving in to Lastman's inane Sheppard line. For once, it would be nice to see subway planning based only on rider use patterns, not the financial value of the subway line to various malls and developers.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I would blame the GTA. They simply aren't interested in building or expanding roads.
> 
> 
> 
> The 407 was never sold. The consortium purchased a 99-year lease and the road will return to the province eventually and not for pennies on the dollar. I agree that the lease was sold too cheaply, but this was largely a matter of early inexperience with the model, not deliberate malfeasance. The current value of the remainder of the lease, sold today would be about $10 billion.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole idea of building public transit and then making road travel prohibitively expensive also stinks. Essentially, what the province is asking Ontarians to do is to fund this massive transit boondoggle, then also ensure that it becomes too expensive foe them to drive their cars so they will be forced to take transit.
> 
> When we hear about GTA "gridlock" and the massive cost to to the GTA, we're not talking about citizens who still manage to get to work on time. We're talking about businesses who are angry that it takes too long to deliver goods on the highways. How will the province solve that? By clearing the peons off the roads, to make way for trucks and people so wealthy that no level of toll is too expensive for them. This is a bad deal all around.
> 
> If businesses are peeved about gridlock, they should be the first to offer to pay to solve _their_ problem. If transit is a great option, then build more transit, largely funded by fares.
> 
> Regarding that Eglinton subway line, it sounded like a bad idea from the start--a way for Bob Rae to buy off the west end after giving in to Lastman's inane Sheppard line. For once, it would be nice to see subway planning based only on rider use patterns, not the financial value of the subway line to various malls and developers.


Shocking as it may be. I mostly agree with MacFury's comments. Mind you I think righting the true costs of driving is the correct approach. I'll add that I'm an advocate for integrating segregated bicycle lanes into the mix to further discourage driving.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Delacourt's spot on about robocalls. Use of robocalls should be more regulated with regulatory body oversight. Real fines need to be introduced. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight...ge_over_robocalls_scandal.html?app=noRedirect


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Shocking as it may be. I mostly agree with MacFury's comments. Mind you I think righting the true costs of driving is the correct approach. I'll add that I'm an advocate for integrating segregated bicycle lanes into the mix to further discourage driving.


well there's a few problems with that opinion, first off, we've supported lowering business taxes for so long now, we've depleted revenues that can be used for solving gridlock. Businesses certainly aren't going to be doing this on a private funding level, you'd have to be pretty delusional to think that that would actually happen. Secondly, expecting fares to cover the costs is also, completely ill thought out as well. Toronto compared to all the other major cities, already has the lowest funding, raising fares to try and cover the massive cost of subways, simply isn't realistic at all. Raising it a dollar per fare won't begin to make a dent in it, and raising it higher will ensure your transit projects fail and less people take it. (same problem being whined about with expensive road travel). I seem to hear all kinds of opinions that just simply aren;t realistic.

Unfortunately we have a mayor who has unrealistic plans for expensive subways, but doesn't seem to have a plan beyond 'give me money mr(s) province, and scream bloody murder if the province says well we have to get the money from somewhere too! Apparently, he thinks money appears from nowhere, but this could be because he grew up inheriting lots of money and having things handed to him.

Unfortunately, a string of do nothing mayors over decades, as well as the incredibly shortsighted move by the Harris tories have now put Toronto into a crisis situation on transit and gridlock. Now we're screwed. At least with Miller, we had a cost effective plan that would have addressed some big problem, sooner than later. But now, we're going to waste another 4 years, maybe a decade and get further into crisis with this nonsense.

It's going to have to be a mix of a little extra tax, road travel being a bit more, some private funding, and whatever else can be thought of. 

But the truth is, we need a mayor, that can show true leadership on this, beyond the juvenile and unrealistic nonsense we see from Ford, to do this. And we need it NOW. I don't care right now if the mayor leans right, or left, just for the love of god, get this fool out and get in someone with the goods to pull it off. Surely we can have responsible fiscal management and smart ideas, without this idiot for a mayor.


----------



## Sonal

Businesses peeved off about a problem will never pay for something if they believe someone else can pay for it. That's just silly. Moreover, getting numerous businesses to plan out public infrastructure would just be a mess--how could you get them all to agree to a plan? And it's hardly a stretch to think that such a plan might disproprotionately benefit the largest contributors (a la your earlier point about financial value to developers and malls) instead of the public and ridership patterns?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Shocking as it may be. I mostly agree with MacFury's comments. Mind you I think righting the true costs of driving is the correct approach. I'll add that I'm an advocate for integrating segregated bicycle lanes into the mix to further discourage driving.


That would be great if gridlock was largely a downtown issue, where people could commute by cycle. It isn't. A lack of bike infrastructure isn't what stops me from commuting 20kms to the office, and I have a short commute compared to most.

I do think the separated bike lanes are a good idea, but mostly because they make the roads safer for both cyclists and drivers. 

Moreover, 'righting' the true costs of driving (half a billion dollars to fix the Gardiner, anyone?) becomes inherently hard when people have poor alternatives to driving.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Businesses peeved off about a problem will never pay for something if they believe someone else can pay for it. That's just silly. Moreover, getting numerous businesses to plan out public infrastructure would just be a mess--how could you get them all to agree to a plan? And it's hardly a stretch to think that such a plan might disproprotionately benefit the largest contributors (a la your earlier point about financial value to developers and malls) instead of the public and ridership patterns?


The problem here is not that too many citizen drivers use the roads. The general public has been tricked into accepting this as the "big problem." Instead, build an extra lane on the 401 or QEW that's a delivery lane only, funded through tolls. If businesses don't like the cost of moving goods quickly, they can go back to regular traffic. 

In the meantime, stop linking business delivery gridlock with public transit. Public transit should be an issue of its own.


----------



## iMouse

Where there are Express and Collector lanes on the 401, make the damn trucks stay off the Express completely, in the same manner as they cannot drive in the left most Express lane now.

That would do some good, IMO.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I was agreeing with MacFury's pointing out the process and system problem. 

I'd like to see a mix of pedestrians, bicycles, public transit and fewer private vehicles. And I believe this can be done in urban, mid-town, and suburban communities. 

My view is that business trucking is heavily subsidized. The weight grooves in our highways and roads are caused by frequent and heavy truck use. The wear and tear from trucks has led to shortening the life span of the gardiner etc. (gardiner was a vogue planning error - I can have an elevated expressway too just like all of those US cities. Robert Moses style). Big biz gets away with murder in our present system. 

A return to a sane model of moving freight on rail lines between cities. And developing a hub and spoke distribution system within the city that pays tolls is the way to go. 

The automotive industry hates this as it sells fewer vehicles. It was the auto industry that dismantled the street car transit many North American cities had in place into the 1950's.

Toronto is not alone with these problems. Mind you only Toronto has Rob Ford.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I was agreeing with MacFury's pointing out the process and system problem.
> 
> I'd like to see a mix of pedestrians, bicycles, public transit and fewer private vehicles. And I believe this can be done in urban, mid-town, and suburban communities.
> 
> My view is that business trucking is heavily subsidized. The weight grooves in our highways and roads are caused by frequent and heavy truck use. The wear and tear from trucks has led to shortening the life span of the gardiner etc. (gardiner was a vogue planning error - I can have an elevated expressway too just like all of those US cities. Robert Moses style). Big biz gets away with murder in our present system.
> 
> A return to a sane model of moving freight on rail lines between cities. And developing a hub and spoke distribution system within the city that pays tolls is the way to go.
> 
> The automotive industry hates this as it sells fewer vehicles. It was the auto industry that dismantled the street car transit many North American cities had in place into the 1950's.
> 
> Toronto is not alone with these problems. Mind you only Toronto has Rob Ford.


This still comes down to what it seems, conservatives can't seem to wrap their heads around.

You see, they really only have this 'cut taxes!!' slogan that gets them elected. It gets their base all excited, but there is an ugly truth to this complete sham. All of the problems we have, with transit, roads, gridlock, etc., all of it will cost money. And plenty of it. It's a question of, who pays?

There's two sets of pockets. There's the people, and then there's business. You can throw out all kinds of ideas, tolls, ridiculous fare hikes, raising taxes (GASPPP!!!!) whether i be directly, or through fees based on whatever it is you use.

But it still, will cost money. Rob Ford is telling everyone he going to build all these subways, but once again, this so called conservative, has absolutely no plan to pay for them. He has somehow convinced some people that by cutting office budgets and saving a few bucks here and there, that that's going to do it.

There's conservative math for you.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> ...
> But it still, will cost money. Rob Ford is telling everyone he going to build all these subways, but once again, this so called conservative, has absolutely no plan to pay for them. He has somehow convinced some people that by cutting office budgets and saving a few bucks here and there, that that's going to do it.
> 
> There's conservative math for you.


Sadly the same math that creates so many problems for the NDP.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Sadly the same math that creates so many problems for the NDP.


actually, they've had the exact opposite problem.


----------



## iMouse

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The wear and tear from trucks has led to shortening the life span of the gardiner etc. (gardiner was a vogue planning error - I can have an elevated expressway too just like all of those US cities. Robert Moses style).


Big Daddy pre-dated JIT systems, and rail/warehousing was still in use then.

I doubt engineers of the day could have seen the massive up-tick in the tonnage carried by heavy trucks along their route.

As you say, corporate greed, by GM and many others, who wanted to get rid of/put to other uses the land the warehouses stood on.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I was agreeing with MacFury's pointing out the process and system problem.
> 
> I'd like to see a mix of pedestrians, bicycles, public transit and fewer private vehicles. And I believe this can be done in urban, mid-town, and suburban communities.


However, it ought to be done by making them attractive alternatives to cars, not by forcing car users to abandon their vehicles in a heap of taxes. There is no reason why some tax money can't accommodate more bicycle routes, as well as roads, for example. I find car travel the most convenient for my user pattern--almost all business-related car travel is short-term, urgent and unplanned. Happy to get people voluntarily onto bikes.

The GTA should also rely more heavily on containerized, modular rail traffic.

Given the choice between subsidizing a business through government revenue, or paying a higher price for a product, I choose paying the higher price. At least competition puts a downward pressure on those prices as businesses compete. If you pour billions of public dollars into alleviating their transportation woes, the sky's the limit.


----------



## arminia

"I have lost count of the number of times that global tax directors have used the words 'banana republic' when I describe this legislation to them," says Michael Firth, a tax partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers Canada, and chief among the critics.

"They don't believe it. They go, 'You're kidding me? Can they really do this?'"



Read more: 'Accidental' GST legislation set to grab extra $1 billion from insurers


----------



## Macfury

arminia said:


> "I have lost count of the number of times that global tax directors have used the words 'banana republic' when I describe this legislation to them," says Michael Firth, a tax partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers Canada, and chief among the critics.
> 
> "They don't believe it. They go, 'You're kidding me? Can they really do this?'"
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: 'Accidental' GST legislation set to grab extra $1 billion from insurers


This is the federal bureaucracy talking, not the federal government--this predates Stephen Harper.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> This is the federal bureaucracy talking, not the federal government--this predates Stephen Harper.


So, he'll put a stop to this, right? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> So, he'll put a stop to this, right? :lmao:


The federal government can't easily overturn a court ruling. Here's hoping they will.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> The federal government can't easily overturn a court ruling. Here's hoping they will.


I was being massively facetious.

Never in a million years will they interfere, where their bottom-line is involved.

Only a minority government can work such wonders.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> I was being massively facetious.
> 
> Never in a million years will they interfere, where their bottom-line is involved.
> 
> *Only a minority government can work such wonders.*


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Only a minority government can work such wonders.


Good one!


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> I was being massively facetious.
> 
> Never in a million years will they interfere, where their bottom-line is involved.
> 
> Only a minority government can work such wonders.


They're all laughing!

Nice work!


----------



## groovetube

Tory MP

Now they're even dumbfounding their own members.

Certainly going to be tough to use the whole trust thing, and the handling of the economy and our tax dollars next election.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

One down...rumour is Rathgeber wants to run for Mayor in St. Albert

Alberta MP Rathgeber quits Tory caucus over bill changes - Edmonton - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Holy Moly! Wallin's been raking it in on top of her senator's salary and expense cheating.
Maybe she should be writing personal cheques.:lmao::lmao:


Pamela Wallin earned approximately $1 million as corporate director since Senate appointment | Toronto Star


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> One down...rumour is Rathgeber wants to run for Mayor in St. Albert


The musings of the uninformed?

Rathgeber may be our MP, but he does not reside in St. Albert, he lives in Edmonton. Since the Municipal Government Act requires a six month residency before one can run for office, he cannot run for mayor in St. Albert, as he cannot meet that requirement for the September 23 nomination day.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The musings of the uninformed?
> 
> Rathgeber may be our MP, but he does not reside in St. Albert, he lives in Edmonton. Since the Municipal Government Act requires a six month residency before one can run for office, he cannot run for mayor in St. Albert, as he cannot meet that requirement for the September 23 nomination day.


Dangers of cherry-picking from the Internet revealed!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Dangers of cherry-picking from the Internet revealed!


Yes found the rumours on this weird site St. Albert.

See screen shot.:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

That is true, but had you bothered to read the very next post, you would have known it to be impossible. BTW, a person advocating the MP for mayor because of his actions does not constitute a 'rumour'. An impossible wish maybe.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> One down...rumour is Rathgeber wants to run for Mayor in St. Albert
> 
> Alberta MP Rathgeber quits Tory caucus over bill changes - Edmonton - CBC News


good one! :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Nothing like gleaning your news from the comments section!


----------



## i-rui

I watched Rathgeber's press conference earlier this afternoon. Well spoken and thought out responses to all the questions as he pointed out this governments failure to be transparent and accountable. 

Pretty huge blow to the Harper government IMO. Hopefully 6 more Conservative MPs will find the courage to do the same.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> I watched Rathgeber's press conference earlier this afternoon. Well spoken and thought out responses to all the questions as he pointed out this governments failure to be transparent and accountable.
> 
> Pretty huge blow to the Harper government IMO. Hopefully 6 more Conservative MPs will find the courage to do the same.


This is huge, despite the predictable upcoming 'much ado about nothing', the cracks appeared some time ago, and now it's pretty obvious to even their own members that Harper is in no way interested in anything remotely 'accountable and transparent'.

This is a clear example why, there should never be majority governments, for any party, period. Absolute power corrupts, no matter what your politic, or promises.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh Oh....a secret fund controlled by Nigel.

The jig is up!

PM's former chief of staff controlled secret Tory fund - Politics - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

oooh the con party likes slush funds too I see...


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh Oh....a secret fund controlled by Nigel.
> 
> The jig is up!
> 
> PM's former chief of staff controlled secret Tory fund - Politics - CBC News





groovetube said:


> oooh the con party likes slush funds too I see...


I agree. At this point it looks really bad and there is going to be some "xplainin" to do...

All I can say is that based on the knowledge that I am privy to, many CPC (like 99.9%) backbenchers will be caught off guard by this and it will be a "high-water" mark for some, possibly, many of them.

At this point it seems one is all in or all out... but then again the summer recess is coming up, so it gives time for individual CPC MPs to figure out whether they want to be "all in" or "all out"....


----------



## groovetube

so we what, vote a liberal government to a majority, and within 3 to 5 years we're all tap dancing about slush funds and secret deals again.

If you take away the majority carrot, and make them accountable properly, perhaps it'll be, somewhat better.


----------



## CubaMark

_Interesting commentary from Elizabeth May..._

*Elizabeth May: 10 Reasons Why Harper Isn't Really Canadian*



> Former prime minister Paul Martin could have prorogued. Why didn't he?
> 
> The reality is (I am sure) that it never occurred to him, because it was simply not done. Respect for tradition has protected Canadians from abusive use of the potential all-powerful role of the Prime Minister's Office. A prime minister who does not respect these traditions falls outside the normal spectrum of Canadian political thought.
> 
> There are other abuses. The centralization of power in the PMO (not an institution even mentioned in the constitution, but created first by Trudeau and now morphed into a seriously bloated unaccountable $10 million/year partisan fortress) is the most troubling change. There really is no Cabinet government anymore.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> _Interesting commentary from Elizabeth May..._
> 
> *Elizabeth May: 10 Reasons Why Harper Isn't Really Canadian*


All they have to do is tell their supporters about the fabled tax cuts. It doesn't have to be even true, even tell them some ridiculous story about they have to wait until they're done giving billions to their buddies and after... They try to balance the budget, they swallow it whole.

Like lemmings off a cliff.


----------



## Macfury

Elizabeth May is not really Canadian--there, I've said it.


----------



## CubaMark

Not a problem for May, since - as far as I can see from what (very) little effort I put into looking this up :lmao: - unlike the USA, there is no "born on Canadian soil" requirement to be elected Prime Minister, merely citizenship. I was also rather amazed to read how whimsical is the position of Prime Minister!



> Not outlined in any constitutional document, the office exists only as per long-established convention originating in Canada's former colonial power, the United Kingdom, which stipulates that the monarch's representative, the governor general, must select as prime minister the person most likely to command the confidence of the elected House of Commons; this individual is typically the leader of the political party that holds the largest number of seats in that chamber.





> The position of prime minister is not outlined in any Canadian constitutional document and is mentioned only in passing in the Constitution Act, 1982,[3][4] and the Letters Patent issued in 1947 by King George VI.[5] The office and its functions are instead governed by constitutional conventions and modelled on the same office in the United Kingdom. (Wikipedia)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Not a problem for May, since - as far as I can see from what (very) little effort I put into looking this up :lmao: - unlike the USA, there is no "born on Canadian soil" requirement to be elected Prime Minister, merely citizenship. I was also rather amazed to read how whimsical is the position of Prime Minister!


Did you need to research it that far? Becoming PM is no problem for May, because she's a doddering outlier who will never garner much support.


----------



## Kosh

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh Oh....a secret fund controlled by Nigel.
> 
> The jig is up!
> 
> PM's former chief of staff controlled secret Tory fund - Politics - CBC News


Strange, but CTV mentioned that fund last night on the news, and specifically said it did not come from that fund but Nigel's personal finances.

As well CTV mentioned this fund is for party business. I wouldn't say it's a secret fund, it's just a party fund we never heard about before. I'm sure all parties have it.

So I'm questioning CBC's investigation into this. 

Oh, and don't read this as I'm a conservative lover, far from it. I just want the truth.


----------



## SINC

Just a typical CBC slant on the story.


----------



## i-rui

Kosh said:


> Strange, but CTV mentioned that fund last night on the news, and specifically said it did not come from that fund but Nigel's personal finances.


the CBC article says the same (or rather says that's what the conservatives have said)



Kosh said:


> As well CTV mentioned this fund is for party business. I wouldn't say it's a secret fund, it's just a party fund we never heard about before. I'm sure all parties have it.


not quite. all parties have funds for party business, but this was a different fund controlled by the PMO, and shrouded in secrecy with no outside oversight. no other party has this.



Kosh said:


> Oh, and don't read this as I'm a conservative lover, far from it. I just want the truth.


agreed. I'm not sure why the conservatives just don't release a copy of the cheque. Their damage control is seriously lacking on this whole issue - to the point where one has to question everything they say about the matter.


----------



## BigDL

Some food for thought

Why Harper's secret million dollar fund is a matter of real concern

Here are a few facts.
The Prime Minister's Chief of Staff is part of what is known as 'exempt staff,' that is, he or she can be hired outside the normal civil service process.

However, that same Chief of Staff is employed by -- and paid by -- the Government of Canada, not by a political party.

The Prime Minister is, at one and the same time, leader of a political party -- currently the Conservative Party -- and chief executive of the Canadian government.

It is normal that a Prime Minister should have occasional partisan political duties, in addition to his/her main job of, as they sometimes say, 'running the country.'

Does that mean the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff would need handy access to party funds, to pay for those occasional political duties?

That seems to be the Conservative justification for the secret Conservative Party million dollar trust fund that CBC's Greg Weston revealed on Thursday.

That fund is controlled by the Chief of Staff.

And when Nigel Wright was Chief of Staff he was in control of a fund which he himself had, in part, set up.

There is very little accountability or transparency for political party spending between election campaigns.

For the most part, Elections Canada's rules and oversight only apply during the formal campaign period.

That is one reason why the Conservatives engage in so much advertising between elections -- there are no spending limits, and the Conservatives have plenty of cash to burn.

*Neither Wright nor any other Conservative (including the PM) voluntarily disclosed the $90,000 payment[/quote]*

The public has very little way of knowing what Nigel Wright, as the Prime Minister's Chief of staff, did with that million dollar fund, which was entirely at his disposal.

The public does, however, know that Wright did not voluntarily disclose the fact that he had, somehow, somewhere, found $90,000 to pay Senator Duffy’s bills.

Wright only admitted he paid those bills after CTV News found out about the payment -- from an overly garrulous Duffy, himself, it appears.

The Prime Minister claims he only learned about the whole sordid business when the rest of us did.

But, in answering questions in the House on the matter, Stephen Harper always makes the strange argument that the minute he found out about the $90,000 he ordered that the information be "made public."

It was already public. It had been broadcast on national television, and widely reported in all the media.

Now, let's give Harper the benefit of the doubt, and accept that he knew nothing of Wright’s payment at the time it happened.

Here is an unanswered question, though.

Had Harper found out about the payment differently, privately and not through the media, would he really have had that news broadcast to all Canadians?

It is an entirely hypothetical question.

What we do know is that Wright, Harper's right hand man, made every effort to keep what we are to believe was a $90,000 act of misplaced charity a secret.

All the while, Wright had virtually unfettered and unsupervised control of one million dollars of Conservative Party funds. The existence of that money was also a secret.
Party spokespeople say those Party funds were not used to help out a Senator who was, let us not forget, one of the Party's star fundraisers.

But we have no way of knowing what might have happened had the $90,000 payment not been made public when it was.

The secret fund could have been used to reimburse Wright for his bizarre and inexplicable act of pure philanthropy.

That is also -- yes -- a hypothetical proposition.

*Is this how to run a mature democracy?*

The bigger, and not hypothetical, question is: do Canadians have a right to worry about a too-close association of the Conservative Party and the Government?

One characteristic of dictatorships is the total association of Party and State.

Stalin did not even bother holding an official government title. He was simply General Secretary of the Communist Party of the USSR, in which capacity he was all-powerful.
Healthy and vital democracies generally want to keep some separation between Party and State.

Once elected, a government, in a democracy, is supposed to be the government of all, not just of its own supporters.

And the notion of democracy is posited not only on the idea of competition among parties at election time, but on a continuing role between elections for all parties and for all elected officials, regardless of party.

The Harper government has very amply shown its near total contempt for parliamentary democracy, in many ways.

Most notable among those ways is the government’s unprecedented use of omnibus legislation to push through bulky packages of disparate and unrelated measures. This way, the Conservatives avoid the messy, democratic business of committee hearings, with their public input, and full parliamentary debate.

Brent Rathgeber, the Edmonton MP who just resigned from the Conservative caucus to sit as an independent, says that during the minority government period the Party leadership justified Harper’s autocratic style with the need to keep tight control and discipline in order to win a majority.

Now that they have a majority, Rathgeber notes ruefully, that controlling and autocratic approach endures.

It seems to have become something of a habit.

One psychological explanation for this distrust of democracy may be that the Conservatives seem afflicted with an almost neurotic sense of being perennial underdogs.

They seem to suffer inexplicable feelings of inadequacy and lack of respect, even when they hold the reins of power.

Public Security Minister Vic Toews expressed that strange underdog complex during the debate on the abolition of the gun registry.

When the Conservatives were challenged on the fact that they not only wanted to end the registry, but also destroy all the accumulated data -- something they had never promised to do -- Toews argued that he and his colleagues did not want any future 'coalition' government to get its hands on that data bank, in order to restore the registry.

Toews openly expressed that perennial Conservative sense of being imposters who only temporarily occupy the seats of power.

Many other Conservatives politicians frequently mutter about unfriendly 'liberal elites,' and a 'hostile media.'

Senator Marjorie LeBreton -- with her recent denunciation of 'media lickspittles' -- is only one of example of that "we-are-the-real-victims-here" syndrome.

This sense of being not entirely respected and loved, and not fully accepted as the legitimate governing party, serves to justify not only the Prime Minister’s tight control of his caucus, but the extraordinary measures to assure that the needs of the Party are never overlooked in the hurly-burly of government business.

Ergo, the million dollar Party fund in the Chief of Staff's bottom drawer.

One never knows, after all, when there might be a need to spend a little money, out of taxpayers’ view, to promote the interests of the Conservative Party.

It may all be normal operating procedure.

A Chief of Staff is a political person, after all.

He is not the Clerk of the Privy Council, who is the supposedly non-partisan chief of the public service.

But given Harper's record on democracy, Canadians might have reason to feel uncomfortable with a Prime Minister who has chosen to so closely marry the operations of government to the political activities of the Conservative Party.

One of the main ways he has engineered that marriage is through the double role of his Chief of Staff.

And that is why the secret fund the CBC uncovered should be a matter of real concern.[/QUOTE]

Why Harpers Secret Million Dollar Fund Matter Real Concern


----------



## FeXL

I, too, have some food for thought...

I understand that finding a progressive bright enough to click on a link is a monumental task. 

However, for those of us on the right (who were born with this innate ability), posting the complete article is pointless. Quote the title, perhaps a short precis, provide a link, if anybody wants, they can follow up. Putting it there in it's entirety is schtupid, wastes bandspace, says more about the person who does it than what I'm allowed to say, & won't compel anyone on either side of the spectrum to read more of it than they would by clicking on a link.

Jes' tryin' ta help out...


----------



## groovetube

it's a bigger poke in the eye seeing it in black and white I s'pose.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> I, too, have some food for thought...
> 
> I understand that finding a progressive bright enough to click on a link is a monumental task.
> 
> However, for those of us on the right (who were born with this innate ability), posting the complete article is pointless. Quote the title, perhaps a short precis, provide a link, if anybody wants, they can follow up. Putting it there in it's entirety is schtupid, wastes bandspace, says more about the person who does it than what I'm allowed to say, & won't compel anyone on either side of the spectrum to read more of it than they would by clicking on a link.
> 
> Jes' tryin' ta help out...




Thanx for com'n out. The Right opinion? An evaluation of my posting style? 

My suggestion; stick to fiction writing and leave the critic's role to those writers with a grasp of facts.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Thanx for com'n out. The Right opinion? An evaluation of my posting style?


What sort of style is that? Wholesale duplication?


----------



## screature

You mean like this FeXL. 

Conservative party calls secret fund story false, call for retraction



> The Conservative party called Friday for the retraction of a report saying the Prime Minister's Office runs a secret partisan fund.
> 
> The party called the report false and says it pays for all of the prime minister's political expenses — and not out of a hidden bank account.
> 
> "All Conservative party expenses are paid by one account, controlled by the Conservative party," the party said in a statement.
> 
> "All funds are properly reported to Elections Canada and audited annually."...
> 
> The Conservatives insisted no party or taxpayer funds went to Duffy nor was Wright reimbursed. Canadians were misled by the story, the party said.
> 
> "They should retract this piece of shoddy journalism."...
> 
> The party said while the chief of staff would have been the one to sign the prime minister's political expense claims, only the party could sign the cheques.
> 
> "The Conservative party ensures that non-government activities undertaken by the prime minister are never billed to taxpayers," the party said.
> 
> Officials for both the Liberals and the New Democrats have acknowledged their parties also pay for leaders' expenses that are partisan in nature.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Thanx for com'n out. The Right opinion? An evaluation of my posting style?
> 
> My suggestion; stick to fiction writing and *leave the critic's role to those writers with a grasp of facts*.


And that is supposed to be you based solely on reading and regurgitating what the media writes? :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I, too, have some food for thought...
> 
> I understand that finding a progressive bright enough to click on a link is a monumental task.


Rather nasty, there, FeXL.


----------



## groovetube

and they cry when they get it back.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> You mean like this FeXL.
> 
> Conservative party calls secret fund story false, call for retraction


No surprise there: CBC gets caught lying about conservatives again. The sad part is, it's not even a surprise anymore when it happens. It's the odd time that they actually check their facts that's the outlier.


----------



## SINC

Like I posted earlier, typical CBC dogma at work. Anything to further their agenda.


----------



## groovetube

The CBC is apparently sticking to their story.

An interesting explanation. Conservative Party denies secret fund run by PMO - Politics - CBC News

Oh I know they have an agenda and all, but they've uncovered some falsehoods in the denials and yu know, when it comes to these cons, they've lied their faces off before and been caught...


----------



## i-rui

Yesterday when I was watching power and politics the conservative MP Christopher Alexander certainly seemed to confirm that there was a fund. He was adamant that the fund was not used to pay Duffy or Nigel Wright back.

I guess the party strategy has changed overnight (again)?


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> No surprise there: CBC gets caught lying about conservatives again. The sad part is, it's not even a surprise anymore when it happens. It's the odd time that they actually check their facts that's the outlier.





SINC said:


> Like I posted earlier, typical CBC dogma at work. Anything to further their agenda.





groovetube said:


> The CBC is apparently sticking to their story.
> 
> An interesting explanation. Conservative Party denies secret fund run by PMO - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Oh I know they have an agenda and all, but they've uncovered some falsehoods in the denials and yu know, when it comes to these cons, they've lied their faces off before and been caught...


It's alright as long as the Conservative Base buy the 3D messaging. 3D Messaging = Deny, (the story) Deflect, (the criticism) Destroy (the person/organization that reported the story) Now why do I think of Rob Ford when I think of 3D Messaging?



i-rui said:


> Yesterday when I was watching power and politics the conservative MP Christopher Alexander certainly seemed to confirm that there was a fund. He was adamant that the fund was not used to pay Duffy or Nigel Wright back.
> 
> I guess the party strategy has changed overnight (again)?


It's interesting how the messaging regarding the Secret PMO Fund parallels the Wright Duffy $90K payment.

It is ok to do it's a proper thing to do (even an honourable thing to do) and we approve of it. Then next thing you know it the Bart Simpson defence "...I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it and you can't prove a thing."

Up until Thursday night the secret fund exists and it is proper to pay for Party Political activities from it. On Friday the Secret Fund doesn't exist, never existed.

When the Wright/Duffy scandal broke, (Thursday the 16th) the Conservative messaging was "Mr. Wright was a nice guy, then looking out for the tax payer, then doing an Honourable thing for Canadians" and "we approve of his actions" then by Sunday he resigned in disgrace for going "rogue."

The problem for the Conservatives, the PMO and OGL is when people lie they keep telling different versions of a story. It easier to remember the truth. There is only one version of the truth.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> The CBC is apparently sticking to their story.
> 
> An interesting explanation. Conservative Party denies secret fund run by PMO - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Oh I know they have an agenda and all, *but they've uncovered some falsehoods* in the denials and yu know, when it comes to these cons, *they've lied their faces off before and been caught*...


When? Nearly every so-called scandal that they've tried to tar the Conservatives with has turned out to be utter BS.


----------



## iMouse

Politically useful disinformation?

Discuss.


----------



## BigDL

Atta'boys keep sending them cheques, money orders. Even better send cash to the Conservative Bosses for the PMO secret slush fund. :clap:

As long as the base is strong the Party shall not fall.

Do not take a second to think about why Mr. Rathgeber quit the Conservative caucus. 

* "Why if it wasn't for those pesky media the Conservative would have gotten away with it."

*To paraphrase ScoobieDoo :lmao::lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> When? Nearly every so-called scandal that they've tried to tar the Conservatives with has turned out to be utter BS.


Love the carefully selected weasel words. "There *is* no secret fund." Have to wonder if the account was closed between Tuesday and today.


----------



## iMouse

I thought that very thing, when they played the clip on CBC2 today.

Great minds think alike, and politicians obfuscate.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> When? Nearly every so-called scandal that they've tried to tar the Conservatives with has turned out to be utter BS.


Yeah that's why they plead guilty to breaking election laws...

Not to mention the recent finding of electoral FRAUD...

Damn media, or something other out to get them.:lmao:

It seems its about getting away with things until now that excites you, and now that they're once again getting their asses handed to them it's the medias fault.

The media made them do it. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Just in case anyone missed it:

Canadian economy adds 95,000 jobs in May; unemployment slides to 7.1 per cent | CTV News


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Love the carefully selected weasel words. "There *is* no secret fund." Have to wonder if the account was closed between Tuesday and today.


Been rethinking a bit. More likely a Con set-up. Deflect attention away from the other things that are making them look bad, then come back and say: See, there is no fund.

Given King Harpo's love of the Republirats this seems much more likely. Remember the Bush National Guard letter obtained by 60 minutes? Much simpler than that one. Just a simple rumour in the ear of a CBC reporter. Two birds with one stone; CBC discredited and Harpo's poor fiscal management temporarily out of the spotlight.


----------



## iMouse

SINC said:


> Just in case anyone missed it:


I didn't.

I also didn't miss



> Flaherty said he was pleased to see that the new jobs created in May were *mainly* full-time and in the private sector


My bold.

Now the question is just what do the Cons define *mainly* as? 51%, or something more?


----------



## groovetube

who should we congratulate, the feds, or the ontario liberals since well over half that number was created in Ontario?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> who should we congratulate, the feds, or the ontario liberals since well over half that number was created in Ontario?


Mainly construction, which may be full-time plus but is also likely to be seasonal.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Just in case anyone missed it:
> 
> Canadian economy adds 95,000 jobs in May; unemployment slides to 7.1 per cent | CTV News





groovetube said:


> who should we congratulate, the feds, or the ontario liberals since well over half that number was created in Ontario?





CTVNews said:


> Employment rose in most provinces, though Ontario saw the majority of the increases, creating 50,600 new jobs. Employment also rose by 18,600 in Alberta *and 20,100 in Quebec.**
> 
> Read more: Canadian economy adds 95,000 jobs in May; unemployment slides to 7.1 per cent | CTV News


...and we have to credit the Parti Québécois (PQ) then...right Sinc?
*Bold mine


----------



## heavyall

iMouse said:


> I didn't.
> Now the question is just what do the Cons define *mainly* as? 51%, or something more?


The Statscan press release is here:


The Daily — Labour Force Survey, May 2013

They summarize as "most" and nearly all"

The breakdown is here:

Table 3 – Labour force characteristics by province – Seasonally adjusted


In many regions, virtually all of the jobs are full-time/private sector.


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> Thanx for com'n out. The Right opinion? An evaluation of my posting style?
> 
> My suggestion; stick to fiction writing and leave the critic's role to those writers with a grasp of facts.


Ah, there's those old lefty rollin' eyes. Thx much.

Nothing to do with right or left, nothing to do with your style. Nothing even to do with the content.

Everything to do with the fact that you just quoted one thousand, two hundred and fifty-nine words in a single post, rather than a link to the article.

Wondering what the hell you think you accomplished...


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Rather nasty, there, FeXL.


Only if the shoe fits...


----------



## BigDL

*Next Cover Up by the Speaker of Conservatives*

Shame on House of Parliament Speaker Andrew Scheer covering up the failure of Conservative MP's Shelly Glover and James Bezan not properly submitting returns for 2011 election expenses.

Scheer failed to notify the House that a letter from Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand requesting Bezan and Glover be suspended much like Peter Penashue.



PostMediaNews said:


> Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand wrote to Speaker Andrew Scheer notifying him that Manitoba Conservatives Shelly Glover and James Bezan have failed to comply with the Elections Act because they have failed to file corrected returns from the 2011 election.
> 
> Scheer did not table those letters, and on Thursday advised a Liberal MP that he could look at them on the Internet.
> 
> Once the letters were uncovered by the Ottawa Citizen and Postmedia News, Liberal MP Scott Andrews raised a question of privilege and asked that Glover and Bezan be suspended immediately, as the act seems to require.


This Conservative cover up makes this whole situation worse. From the jaws of openness and transparency the Conservatives snatch controversy once again.

NDP to argue Conservative MPs Shelly Glover and James Bezan be allowed to sit


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> ...and we have to credit the Parti Québécois (PQ) then...right Sinc?
> *Bold mine


well since it was the ontario liberals were raked over the coals when Ontario had big job losses, I assume we can credit them with having created the biggest job numbers of all.

Unless of course the rules state you can only credit them if the jobs are being lost of course... :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

BigDL said:


> Thanx for com'n out. The Right opinion? An evaluation of my posting style?
> 
> My suggestion; stick to fiction writing and leave the critic's role to those writers with a grasp of facts.


It was a service for those who are handicapped in such a way as it prevents them from clicking that particular link.

But I was pleased to note that you didn't '*my bold*' anything, leaving it up to me to form my own opinion.


----------



## groovetube

it's hard to know why anyone would be so upset at someone quoting an article, it's happened many times on forums. Especially from anyone that near spams a thread with endless posts with links and quotes often not understood, from the same source always, and then while getting upset at jabs coming back, jabs just about everytime themselves.

Personally I'm not against it, it makes it easier to read.


----------



## eMacMan

I can understand posting an entire news story as these links have a way of becoming non-functioning in a rather short period of time. And yes one still needs to post the link to cover their copyrighted heiné.


----------



## iMouse

eMacMan said:


> And yes one still needs to post the link to cover their copyrighted heiné.


I believe copyright only applies if money is changing hands, but it's nice to have the link anyway, to prove that the quote has not been 'doctored'.


----------



## FeXL

iMouse said:


> But I was pleased to note that you didn't '*my bold*' anything, leaving it up to me to form my own opinion.


All those traffic lights, brake lights, traffic signs, signal lights, pedestrians, horns, etc., must just be hellacious distractions when you're driving. I mean, how do you manage to reach your destination across town with all those unsettling diversions? Pure bedlam, no?


----------



## iMouse

Pure lame, yes.


----------



## groovetube

Jim Flaherty’s addiction to cracking heads: Cohn | Toronto Star

It's time someone calls this hypocrite of a finance minister out.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yeah that's why they plead guilty to breaking election laws...
> *
> Not to mention the recent finding of electoral FRAUD...*
> 
> Damn media, or something other out to get them.:lmao:
> 
> It seems its about getting away with things until now that excites you, and now that they're once again getting their asses handed to them it's the medias fault.
> 
> The media made them do it. :lmao:


In which there was no connection to the CPC or any individual MP... nice how you selectively chose to edit out that part of the ruling. 

But then again selective editing is part of the left's MO.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Shame on House of Parliament Speaker Andrew Scheer covering up the failure of Conservative MP's Shelly Glover and James Bezan not properly submitting returns for 2011 election expenses.
> 
> Scheer failed to notify the House that a letter from Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand requesting Bezan and Glover be suspended much like Peter Penashue.
> 
> This Conservative cover up makes this whole situation worse. From the jaws of openness and transparency the Conservatives snatch controversy once again.
> 
> NDP to argue Conservative MPs Shelly Glover and James Bezan be allowed to sit


What cover up??? Pure nonsense! We all know what the letter said, it is public knowledge, just apparently "not public enough" for the Opposition.

The ruling by Mayrand is being appealed in court. It seems that in his world punishment should be handed down before a final decision is made.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> In which there was no connection to the CPC or any individual MP... nice how you selectively chose to edit out that part of the ruling.
> 
> But then again selective editing is part of the left's MO.


Yes. Someone hacked into their database and helped them with their election chances, yeah that's it.

Probably about the only data breach example in like, ever, in which the goal was to help the iwners of said data .

:lmao:

Riiiiiiiiiggghht.


----------



## arminia

*List of World’s Largest Creditor and Debtor Nations*

List of World


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yes. Someone hacked into their database and helped them with their election chances, yeah that's it.
> 
> Probably about the only data breach example in like, ever, in which the goal was to help the iwners of said data .
> 
> :lmao:
> 
> Riiiiiiiiiggghht.


So there is no proof and the judge ruled and you know better based on your reading the media and your biased political proclivities....

Yeah Riiiiiiiiiggghht. No in your case left. 

You crack me up gt, you really do. :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

No Elections Canada oversight of PMO fund, ex-chief says - Canada - CBC News

Once again, Harper lies.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> No Elections Canada oversight of PMO fund, ex-chief says - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Once again, Harper lies.


The man is a politician. Why would you expect otherwise?


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> The man is a politician. Why would you expect otherwise?


granted. But this is the man who made such a huge election promise of accountability, and transparency.

No better than the liberals, whatsoever.


----------



## iMouse

They are all cast from the same mold, save the few that rightly receive public adulation.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> No Elections Canada oversight of PMO fund, ex-chief says - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Once again, Harper lies.


Once again, Greg Weston lies.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Once again, Greg Weston lies.


But it's a link--and links are true, right?


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> But it's a link--and links are true, right?


No different than here, it's always consider the source.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Once again, Greg Weston lies.


Really? And you know this... how.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You know they are hitting the bottom of the barrel when this former Harper advisor puts in his 2 cents. He was the Con advisor who had problems with his hooker-girlfriend in Ottawa. Sheesh the people Harper surrounds himself with!

Ex-Harper aide Carson 'surprised' PM unaware of Duffy deal - Politics - CBC News


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Once again, Greg Weston lies.


Not liking the message does not change the facts, most sadly a reality for the Conservatives and OGL and their disciples.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> Not liking the message does not change the facts, most sadly a reality for the Conservatives and OGL and their disciples.


Have pity. They are a sad lot.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://v1.nationalnewswatch.com/canadas_conservative_edifice_is_cracking.htm

They are a disgusting cesspool of troglodytes aren't they.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Canada's Conservative edifice is cracking
> 
> They are a disgusting cesspool of troglodytes aren't they.


Poor, poor Hank.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://o.canada.com/2013/06/11/stephen-harper-impersonates-clark-mulroney-manning-video/

That last impersonation of Parson Manning looks more like Heinrich Himmler.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Stephen Harper impersonates Diefenbaker, Manning, Clark and Mulroney | canada.com
> 
> That last impersonation of Parson Manning looks more like Heinrich Himmler.


for the love of gawd! distract everyone from the scandals.

Oh wait thank the good lovin LORDIE the liberal senator was found to owe 230k.

Phew.

ADSCAM!

:lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> for the love of gawd! distract everyone from the scandals.
> 
> Oh wait thank the good lovin LORDIE the liberal senator was found to owe 230k.
> 
> Phew.
> 
> ADSCAM!
> 
> :lmao:


Yup. Schools out on the $240k. That may be the total of Duffy + Wallin + Harb. Who cares? What about our lying PM?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Stephen Harper impersonates Diefenbaker, Manning, Clark and Mulroney | canada.com
> 
> That last impersonation of *Parson Manning* looks more like *Heinrich Himmler*.


What a loser comment jimbo.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yup. Schools out on the $240k. That may be the total of Duffy + Wallin + Harb. Who cares? *What about our lying PM?*


Keep spinning it jimbo...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Keep looking at the "colours that are real."


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Stephen Harper impersonates Diefenbaker, Manning, Clark and Mulroney | canada.com
> 
> That last impersonation of Parson Manning looks more like Heinrich Himmler.


Stbk that comparison is unfavorable to Mr. Himmler.


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> What a *looser* comment jimbo.


How would you recommend he tighten it up?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Stbk* that comparison is unfavorable to Mr. Himmler.



Uh if you are going to make such outlandish comparisons at least do a reasonable spell check first...

Such hyperbole is more than expected coming from the "No Doubt Party"... :lmao:


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> How would you recommend he tighten it up?


Maybe if there were some facts included... rather than just nonsensical hyperbole... But then again you wouldn't see the difference.

As nonsensical hyperbole is your MO.


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> Maybe if there were some facts included... rather than just nonsensical hyperbole... But then again you wouldn't see the difference.
> 
> As nonsensical hyperbole is your MO.


Perhaps if you even acknowledged your error, this might be funny.

Sadly, it is far from that.


----------



## groovetube

man, cons get defensive over this whole scandal stuff. 

Truthfully, from the start we've been told over and over that all this is much ado over nothing, from the cracks in the con party to the Duffy/Wallin/PMO scandals.

Seems we're slowly finding out that certainly isn't the case. It'll be interesting as more info becomes available.

My prediction? Harper had his hands in this from the start, and that slush fund does NOT have the oversight from elections canada that Harper said it does.

Of course if heavyall can pony up proof that Greg Weston is lying (btw it was former head of elections canada Jean-Pierre Kingsley that said it, not greg weston...) then sure, I'm all ears.

But I'm getting used to cons screaming 'LIAR' every chance they get. :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

Harper cannot absolve himself from this one.

It's no secret that he controls everything that goes on. It's his affliction, and Canada's.

Only a fool would maintain that he has not also had his hand in this fund.

Let's see if the cancelled cheque to Duffy is ever produced, eh.


----------



## eMacMan

Notice that they have also nailed Senator Horb (Lieberal) to the tune of almost a quarter of a Million.

To do so they audited back 8 years. Now I would say this no matter what the Senators ideology. The Senate should have a clear obligation to keep on top of things. It's one thing to go back 3 years, maybe even 4 years but after that it is the fault of the Senate for not reviewing these expenses on a routine basis.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Notice that they have also nailed Senator Horb (Lieberal) to the tune of almost a quarter of a Million.
> 
> To do so they audited back 8 years. Now I would say this no matter what the Senators ideology. The Senate should have a clear obligation to keep on top of things. It's one thing to go back 3 years, maybe even 4 years but after that it is the fault of the Senate for not reviewing these expenses on a routine basis.


That's the thing, this was never taken seriously before. It was never a secret that Senators abused their privilege to their own financial advantage, it just wasn't comprehensively audited and made public. This is the first federal government to have the stones to want this information made public, even if it could look bad for them.


----------



## groovetube

except it wasn't the federal government who wanted all this public.

What a load of crap.

And you never said how you knew greg weston was a liar so we'll safely assume that was a load too.

Something about cons calling people liars... :baby:


----------



## iMouse

As the kids used to say "It take one to know one." :lmao:


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Something about cons calling people liars... :baby:


Seems Cons are not the only ones. 



groovetube said:


> Once again, Harper lies.


----------



## groovetube

sorry old chap but your driveby totally missed the sarcasm.

Let's call it 'knowingly providing false information'. Because, it's clear that the PM, being a totally top down control freak, would know that elections canada does NOT have the authority to drill down and provide the oversight he says it can, only a very very general audit without the ability to investigate.

Now, as I already said, if someone can provide information that the former head of elections canada was in fact lying and Harper was not, I'm more than happy to retract.

But of late, cons calling people liars without being able to back it up. Simply spewing it and repeating it.

The usual bully thing.


----------



## CubaMark

*RCMP launch criminal probe of $90K cheque to Mike Duffy*



> The federal ethics commissioner has suspended her examination of the $90,000 cheque written to Mike Duffy by the prime minister's top aide to cover illegal expenses claimed by the senator, because the RCMP has opened a criminal investigation.
> 
> Mary Dawson said Thursday that under law, since Stephen Harper's former chief of staff, Nigel Wright, is also being investigated for the same matter by the RCMP to determine whether he has committed an offence under an Act of Parliament, she must cease her examination into whether Wright was in a conflict of interest when he wrote the cheque.


(CBC)


----------



## Dr.G.

"A Senate committee has ordered Senator Mac Harb to repay $51,000 within 30 days, and has given him the option to repay a total of $231,649 if he does not want to face an extended and detailed audit of his expenses dating back to at least 2005, CBC News has learned." Interesting. He refuses to pay the $231,649 now, and, if put under an "extended and detailed audit" he will refuse to pay even more. This is true chutzpah. Wish I could do the same for my income taxes. C'est la vie.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> "A Senate committee has ordered Senator Mac Harb to repay $51,000 within 30 days, and has given him the option to repay a total of $231,649 if he does not want to face an extended and detailed audit of his expenses dating back to at least 2005, CBC News has learned." Interesting. He refuses to pay the $231,649 now, and, if put under an "extended and detailed audit" he will refuse to pay even more. This is true chutzpah. Wish I could do the same for my income taxes. C'est la vie.


...but Dr.G. it's your and my income tax, excise, portion of the HST etc. that allows the Senators to keep milking that cow. 

If the Senate was abolished and the current funding maintained and redirected to seniors, every senior would be lifted out of poverty. Instead funding the senate, a very few seniors, are living very high on the hog while most seniors lives languish in quiet desperation.


----------



## Macfury

Why worry only about seniors? I want MY money back.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> ...but Dr.G. it's your and my income tax, excise, portion of the HST etc. that allows the Senators to keep milking that cow.
> 
> If the Senate was abolished and the current funding maintained and redirected to seniors, every senior would be lifted out of poverty. Instead funding the senate, a very few seniors, are living very high on the hog while most seniors lives languish in quiet desperation.


Abolish the Senate? What next? Get rid of the Gov. Gen. and all the Lt. Govs in Canada? Trying to turn us from a Constitutional Monarchy into a democratic republic?

I'm for a libertarian solution -- hands off the government and the government will keep their hands off of us. As for the seniors, let them fend for themselves. It's "dog eat dog" out there and some of us like getting a free pass to the trough. Some see the trough as half empty .......... others see it as half full. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Sonal

Evasion has only worsened scandals plaguing all levels of government | Full Comment | National Post


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Evasion has only worsened scandals plaguing all levels of government | Full Comment | National Post


Worked out really well for McGuinty.


----------



## iMouse

*"He hit me first!!!"*


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

RCMP launch *criminal* probe of $90K cheque to Mike Duffy

I don't see why the ethics commish doesn't continue her probe too.

Heres to hoping the probe is able to penetrate Harper.

RCMP launch criminal probe of $90K cheque to Mike Duffy - Politics - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Well at least she didn't break down weeping like her colleague Dean Del Mastro.
Glad I don't have smellovision because it looks like she reeks of bad perfume.

Senator Wallin says sorry for mistakes on travel claims - Ottawa - CBC News


----------



## kps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> RCMP launch *criminal* probe of $90K cheque to Mike Duffy
> 
> I don't see why the ethics commish doesn't continue her probe too.
> 
> Heres to hoping the probe is able to penetrate Harper.
> 
> RCMP launch criminal probe of $90K cheque to Mike Duffy - Politics - CBC News


...and who do you want to penetrate with this story Skippy? Duffy is nothing compared to this leach on the taxpayer. Wonder if Trudeau will pay his $231,000 bill from all his illegal speaking fees.

Senator Mac Harb advised to pay up or face more scrutiny - Politics - CBC News

I say audit them ALL!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

kps said:


> ...and who do you want to penetrate with this story Skippy? Duffy is nothing compared to this leach on the taxpayer. Wonder if Trudeau will pay his $231,000 bill from all his illegal speaking fees.
> 
> Senator Mac Harb advised to pay up or face more scrutiny - Politics - CBC News
> 
> I say audit them ALL!


Hmmm. Surely you know they are all being audited. It's the ethics investigation that has ceased because of the criminal investigation.

Criminal probe, Ethics probe, audit probe. 3 different probes.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> ...and who do you want to penetrate with this story Skippy? Duffy is nothing compared to this leach on the taxpayer. Wonder if Trudeau will pay his $231,000 bill from all his illegal speaking fees.
> 
> Senator Mac Harb advised to pay up or face more scrutiny - Politics - CBC News
> 
> I say audit them ALL!


actually Trudeau's speaking fees were cleared.

mac Harb's illegal expenses are inexcusable.

If you want another example of a sneaky liberal look at McGuinty. The slithering snake.

Unfortunately the alternatives here in Ontario are far far worse. We need a better centrist government not the extremes of Hudak or horwath.

Mcguinty has nearly reached the levels of what I consider to be the worst premier in ontario history, David Peterson.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> ...and who do you want to penetrate with this story Skippy? Duffy is nothing compared to this leach on the taxpayer. Wonder if Trudeau will pay his $231,000 bill from all his illegal speaking fees.
> 
> Senator Mac Harb advised to pay up or face more scrutiny - Politics - CBC News
> 
> I say audit them ALL!



Again I have no problem going back 3-4 years. But in Harbs case they went back 8. At some point the problem becomes not the individual corrupt, slimy bums but rather the total lack of oversight that encourages them to flourish.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> ...and who do you want to penetrate with this story Skippy? Duffy is nothing compared to this leach on the taxpayer. Wonder if Trudeau will pay his $231,000 bill from all his illegal speaking fees.
> 
> Senator Mac Harb advised to pay up or face more scrutiny - Politics - CBC News
> 
> I say audit them ALL!


I say "Let's drop it all and start clean." Make all the Senators and MPs promise not to misspend our hard-earned tax dollars and pledge to be model citizens. Wipe the slate clean and start anew, just like we do at the onset of each school year. To make it worth their while to be honest, bring about a signing bonus of $100,000 for each member to sign this pledge, with a promise of an additional $250,000 when they leave The House or the Senate and have a clean slate upon leaving. Any corruption means no leaving bonus. PM Harper should institute a new "Honesty Sales Tax" of 1% on everything we buy with the funds going directly into this fund for the MPs and Senators. Funds from this tax cannot go into the general pool of funds to pay for such trivial items like health care, infrastructure costs, etc. The interest earned on the banked new tax will be allowed to go for the creation of more prisons, but nothing else.

This, in the final analysis, seems more than fair and should now help the MPs and Senators focus upon serious matters .................. like what they are going to do with their vacation time when the House and Senate close this week for the summer. Of course, the rest of us should dedicate ourselves to working harder and spending more to help pay for this new tax pool. We shall see.

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## speckledmind

:d


----------



## Dr.G.

Kudos to the federal government. They did all this without raising our taxes. Now this is what I call win-win for one and all.

"Members of Parliament gave themselves a six per cent increase to their travel budgets and a slight salary increase this spring, according to minutes of a closed committee meeting that were made public this week.

The board of internal economy is the governing body that oversees financial and administration matters of the House of Commons and its meetings are not open to the public. But on Thursday, the minutes of past meetings were posted online, revealing some details about the kinds of issues the board deals with. The minutes have always been available publicly upon request but now they can be accessed with a few clicks online.

Minutes from the March 25 meeting indicate the board approved an increase to the travel status expenses accounts for MPs worth $1,762 as of April 1. That brings the amount up to $28,000 for accommodation, meals and other incidentals.

The board also approved an increase of 1.6 per cent to MPs' sessional allowances and salaries.

The base salary for an MP was $157,731 and had been frozen with no increases since 2010-11. Now the base salary is $160,200."

MPs give their travel budgets, salaries a boost - Politics - CBC News


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> actually Trudeau's speaking fees were cleared.
> 
> mac Harb's illegal expenses are inexcusable.
> 
> If you want another example of a sneaky liberal look at McGuinty. The slithering snake.
> 
> Unfortunately the alternatives here in Ontario are far far worse. We need a better centrist government not the extremes of Hudak or horwath.
> 
> Mcguinty has nearly reached the levels of what I consider to be the worst premier in ontario history, David Peterson.


Don't even mention McGuinty, the coward, he should be criminally charged with all his scandals. E-Health, Ornge, power plant moves ---that putz thought a billion dollars for NOTHING was NOTHING.

Hudak an extremist? LOL He lost the last election because people thought him too much like McGuinty.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Don't even mention McGuinty, the coward, he should be criminally charged with all his scandals. E-Health, Ornge, power plant moves ---that putz thought a billion dollars for NOTHING was NOTHING.
> 
> Hudak an extremist? LOL He lost the last election because people thought him too much like McGuinty.


I don't know that that was the reason. Everyone knows he's an extremist. Even members of his own party think so. For every far right person who think that is a good idea, there's a socialist who wants a further left NDP. Is this a good thing for Ontario?

I don't think either option is good. I want to put the liberals to pasture too, but what are the real options? Bothe Hudak and Horwath would finish the devastation that McGuinty left.

Like I said, we need a moderate. Do we really need to settle for the Ford's, Hudaks, (much less some of the federals...) in order to see some fiscal responsibility?

Really?


----------



## kps

The more the Conservatives move to the centre, the more the Liberals and NDP move to the left, in some cases way too far and into some ridiculous extreme. I'm seeing some really bizarre stuff coming out of the mouths of some Libs and NDPers. 

In some twisted way I'm rather amused by it.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> The more the Conservatives move to the centre, the more the Liberals and NDP move to the left, in some cases way too far and into some ridiculous extreme. I'm seeing some really bizarre stuff coming out of the mouths of some Libs and NDPers.
> 
> In some twisted way I'm rather amused by it.


I don't see that as a bad thing. I've never really like the provincial liberals. As I said, I consider Ontario's worst premier David Peterson. The... WORST.

What an arrogant so and so. I have to change the channel anytime he shows his face on any tv show.

Send the libs and nap into far left land, and lets get a proper centrist fiscally responsible truly progressive smart government.

Wait, that's not only a mouthful, but probably wishful thinking 

ANyway, I don't care what they call themselves, but this far right far left bully crap politic, serves no one, regardless of which side you profess to support.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Hudak an extremist? LOL He lost the last election because people thought him too much like McGuinty.


Absolutely. People thought there was no reason to switch horses in mid-stream--for an identical horse. 

The worst premiere bar none is still Bob Rae. A weird combo of extremism and self-immolation.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another criminal with ties to OMD PMSH turns himself in. The circle of friends Harper chooses to be around continues to be of great concern. 

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/ne...der-to-u-s-authorities-and-serve-his-sentence


----------



## kps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another criminal with ties to OMD PMSH turns himself in. The circle of friends Harper chooses to be around continues to be of great concern.


Way to spin it Skippy. lol

Politicians hobnob with all kinds. You hate Harper, we get it.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Way to spin it Skippy. lol
> 
> Politicians hobnob with all kinds. You hate Harper, we get it.


ordinarily, I'd kinda agree with you. But it seems, this is a really consistent pattern.

It reminds me of the people who tried pass off that photo of rob ford with those 2 guys who got shot in front of that house (that got raided the other day) as well he takes photos with all kinds of people who ask.

Except, we know differently now.

You may be right in this case, but given history, I'm not surprised people are suspicious.


----------



## eMacMan

Improved citizenship testing.



> "If you were to ask someone, 'Who's the prime minister of Canada?,' you would know the answer right away.
> 
> *"[A question on the test] would ask, for example, 'Who is in charge of the head of the party in power, and what's his title?' *
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, they've crafted the test in a very poor way. People know the answers, but the questions are asked convolutedly," says Green.


Clearly the answer in this case would not be Stephen Harper. The question asks who is in charge of Stephen Harpo. Perhaps Laureen Harper/Wife is the correct answer? The Military Industrial Complex/Puppet Masters? David Johnson/Governor General?


----------



## SINC

Our MP recently resigned from the Conservative caucus and will now sit as an independent. In his newsletter, he explains why. My favourite part of that explanation appears below in bold:



> I have reluctantly come to the inescapable conclusion that the Government’s lack of support for my transparency bill is tantamount to a lack of support for transparency and open government generally. The government chose to gut my transparency bill despite not a single witness testifying at the Access Committee in support of either eviscerating amendment. The Committee hearings (as all are) were a charade. The decisions on amendments were made by unelected staffers weeks before the Committee hearings even commenced. Compliant MPs just do what they are told by PMO staffers. *That the PMO operates so opaquely and routinely without adult supervision is an affront to the constitutional requirements of responsible government* and is also the genesis of the current Duffy/Wright debacle.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Our MP recently resigned from the Conservative caucus and will now sit as an independent. In his newsletter, he explains why. My favourite part of that explanation appears below in bold:


I truly respect your MP's courage and conviction to stand up for what he believes in and take action to back up this belief. I might not agree with all of his political views, but I respect his courage. :clap: :clap:


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Our MP recently resigned from the Conservative caucus and will now sit as an independent. In his newsletter, he explains why. My favourite part of that explanation appears below in bold:


Sounds like you found a keeper up there in Edmonton.


----------



## iMouse

Marc, I don't understand you definition of courage in this instance.

It's not like he's doing any Sgt. York stuff, he'll still be well-off in society, he still represents his constituents to the best of his abilities and not someone else.

Sure, some might choose to call it political suicide, but it's hardy in the same league as the real thing.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Marc, I don't understand you definition of courage in this instance.
> 
> It's not like he's doing any Sgt. York stuff, he'll still be well-off in society, he still represents his constituents to the best of his abilities and not someone else.
> 
> Sure, some might choose to call it political suicide, but it's hardy in the same league as the real thing.


I dono, I would say he had courage to do what he did. 

Perhaps if more MPs did the same thing, in this majority government, and in the last liberal majority government, we could save ourselves some of this crap.

Or, so I would wish.


----------



## iMouse

Maybe the party whip now carries a chair, and a gun. :lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I dono, I would say he had courage to do what he did.
> 
> Perhaps if more MPs did the same thing, in this majority government, and in the last liberal majority government, we could save ourselves some of this crap.
> 
> Or, so I would wish.


Ah yes! A representative government where our MPs job is to represent our views in Parliament as opposed to the current system of representing their parties (or the PMOs) views to their constituents. 

Probably would mean a lot of legislative gridlock but in light of most of the bills passed in the past 20 years that might be a very good thing as well.


----------



## iMouse

Tommy Douglas managed it.

Are these men cut from lesser cloth?

(Rhetorical question. No answer required, or even expected.)


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Tommy Douglas managed it.
> 
> Are these men cut from lesser cloth?
> 
> (Rhetorical question. No answer required, or even expected.)


There's plenty of evidence that total control isn't needed to get things done. Despite the misinformation...


----------



## iMouse

True, but I see living evidence of this man's massive achievement, every day I drive someone somewhere.


----------



## groovetube

Montreal Mayor Michael Applebaum, two others arrested by anti-corruption unit | Toronto Star

Montreal Mayor arrested, but also two others, Jean Yves Bisson and Saulie Zajdel.

Saulie Zajdel... Saulie Zajdel...

Oh THAT Saulie Zajdel...

The list of nefarious connections, continues.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Tommy Douglas managed it.


What was he supposed to have done?


----------



## CubaMark

kps said:


> The more the Conservatives move to the centre, the more the Liberals and NDP move to the left, in some cases way too far and into some ridiculous extreme. I'm seeing some really bizarre stuff coming out of the mouths of some Libs and NDPers.
> 
> In some twisted way I'm rather amused by it.


Well... I would suggest you're rather _confused_ by it  The NDP moving to the left? The party that deleted references to socialism in its last party platform update this year? The NDP is moving to the Centre, as it always does when it thinks it has a chance of winning seats. That you *think* it's moving to the left shows just how far right this country has moved in the past 20 years...


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Well... I would suggest you're rather _confused_ by it  The NDP moving to the left? The party that deleted references to socialism in its last party platform update this year? *The NDP is moving to the Centre, as it always does when it thinks it has a chance of winning seats. That you *think* it's moving to the left shows just how far right this country has moved in the past 20 years...*


yup. It's bizarre that anyone would think the NDP is moving further left. But it seems to me, that it's a necessary talking point to scare the voters in order to gain support. The whole scary 'socialists!' thing wears thin after a while, but I suppose it does take the attention off the ineptness of the current government, and it's scandals.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Well... I would suggest you're rather _confused_ by it  The NDP moving to the left? The party that deleted references to socialism in its last party platform update this year? The NDP is moving to the Centre, as it always does when it thinks it has a chance of winning seats. That you *think* it's moving to the left shows just how far right this country has moved in the past 20 years...


I remember being horrified to read a national platform from the Broadbent years and saw a lot of references to wholesale nationalization of industries the old fool had no hope of managing effectively. Those references are now gone, thank goodness. The NDp has definitely moved right.


----------



## Sonal

Huh... apparently, the word is that Bob Rae is resigning as MP today. (Official press conference coming soon.)

Wonder why.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Huh... apparently, the word is that Bob Rae is resigning as MP today. (Official press conference coming soon.)
> 
> Wonder why.


I wonder why it took so long? That resignation is years overdue.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I wonder why it took so long? That resignation is years overdue.


There was some (quickly squashed) rumour about a bid for Mayor of Toronto.... that would have been a terrible idea.


----------



## Macfury

Dumping one's responsibilities after an election has always struck me as a selfish decision. Why can't he wait until there is no need for a by-election? Bob Rae is the gift that keep on taking.



Sonal said:


> There was some (quickly squashed) rumour about a bid for Mayor of Toronto.... that would have been a terrible idea.


One advantage: he can behave in addled fashion without the use of drugs.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Huh... apparently, the word is that Bob Rae is resigning as MP today. (Official press conference coming soon.)
> 
> Wonder why.





Macfury said:


> I wonder why it took so long? That resignation is years overdue.





Sonal said:


> There was some (quickly squashed) rumour about a bid for Mayor of Toronto.... that would have been a terrible idea.





Macfury said:


> Dumping one's responsibilities after an election has always struck me as a selfish decision. Why can't he wait until there is no need for a by-election? Bob Rae is the gift that keep on taking.
> 
> One advantage: he can behave in addled fashion without the use of drugs.


To be fair the reason why he resigned was to take on the role more or less full time as chief negotiator for First Nations in talks with the Ontario government about development of the Ring of Fire.

It is an unpaid position, at least that is the "official line" and he didn't want to be saddled with the same "conflict of interest" position that his Glorious Leader is embroiled in...

Seems he took the "high" road to save his "legacy".

Not to mention now with JT at the helm he probably feels like, "Ok... This young pup with a sense of entitlement, who received a coronation from the Party is going to call the shots....? 

"Nah... I don't think so, I have better things to do with my twilight years."

I say good on Rae for getting out now, his day is done in federal politics and he can move on to other things.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> To be fair the reason why he resigned was to take on the role more or less full time as chief negotiator for First Nations in talks with the Ontario government about development of the Ring of Fire.
> 
> It is an unpaid position, at least that is the "official line" and he didn't want to be saddled with the same "conflict of interest" position that his Glorious Leader is embroiled in...


I understand. But his first responsibility is to the people he promised to serve. No credit for switching to a better legacy in midstream.


----------



## Sonal

I can understand why he's leaving politics--I think Interim Leader is about as high as he'll go. But it stills seems odd to call a byelection right now instead of waiting two years and not re-running. (It's not quite clear to me why his new position needs him free and clear of his other obligations so urgently.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I can understand why he's leaving politics--I think Interim Leader is about as high as he'll go. But it stills seems odd to call a byelection right now instead of waiting two years and not re-running. (It's not quite clear to me why his new position needs him free and clear of his other obligations so urgently.)


He can't stomach that upstart pup, JT. This is the best excuse to jump ship.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> He can't stomach that upstart pup, JT. This is the best excuse to jump ship.


All the better to leave quietly upon the next election than resign now.

Still, JT's a lot more likely to get votes in Ontario than Bob Rae....


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> To be fair the reason why he resigned was to take on the role more or less full time as chief negotiator for First Nations in talks with the Ontario government about development of the Ring of Fire.
> 
> It is an unpaid position, at least that is the "official line" and he didn't want to be saddled with the same "conflict of interest" position that his Glorious Leader is embroiled in...
> 
> Seems he took the "high" road to save his "legacy".
> 
> *Not to mention now with JT at the helm he probably feels like, "Ok... This young pup with a sense of entitlement, who received a coronation from the Party is going to call the shots....?
> 
> "Nah... I don't think so, I have better things to do with my twilight years."*
> 
> I say good on Rae for getting out now, his day is done in federal politics and he can move on to other things.


I've seen no indication of Bob Rae's dislike of Trudeau. Have you?

I've welcomed Bob Rae's contribution to the political debate, too bad he's leaving. He certainly isn't the first to leave early, we've had the last two PMs leave early, lib and con, and here in ontario McGuinty, and Harris himself bailed early.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> All the better to leave quietly upon the next election than resign now.
> 
> *Still, JT's a lot more likely to get votes in Ontario than Bob Rae....*


zing! :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Can you spell "entitlement"? Shame. Shame.

John Baird vacationed for free at historic Macdonald House in England | CTV News


----------



## groovetube

Barrie, Ontario Newspaper Thwarts Spin Story Attempt by Prime Minister's Office | As It Happens with Carol Off and Jeff Douglas | CBC Radio

This kinda makes you laugh. The PMO tried hard I guess, but got pwned in the end over it. :lmao:

Did they think that as the PMO they would be an anonymous source?


----------



## iMouse

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." _- Sir Walter Scott_


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *I've seen no indication of Bob Rae's dislike of Trudeau. Have you?*
> 
> I've welcomed Bob Rae's contribution to the political debate, too bad he's leaving. He certainly isn't the first to leave early, we've had the last two PMs leave early, lib and con, and here in ontario McGuinty, and Harris himself bailed early.


I didn't say he doesn't like him did I. 

What I indicated was that it is reasonable to presume that he would not have that much respect for the kid. And in that regard I have seen Rae's face during QP when JT was asking a number of questions and his lack of expression was decidedly telling.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Can you spell "entitlement"? Shame. Shame.
> 
> John Baird vacationed for free at historic Macdonald House in England | CTV News


Meh... Much ado about nothing... slow news day after the House rises.

Campbell wasn't there the House was empty and no tax payer dollars were involved, what the hell is the big deal.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I didn't say he dioesn't like him did I.
> 
> What I indicated was that it is reasonable to presume that he would not have that much respect for the kid. And in that regard I have seen Rae's face during QP when JT was asking a number of questions and his lack of expression was decidedly telling.


I think that's nonsense. Rae has always been poker faced at the best of times.

I think you're reading far too much into this, what beyond your assumptions based on Rae's lack of expression is there to show Rae has little respect for Trudeau??


----------



## iMouse

So, the call was off the record, and she wasn't representing the PMO, who pays her to put her butt in that seat.??

How about the long-distance charges?

Which phone did she use to make the call? Too petty you say?

Have you never heard of 'principle'.


----------



## eMacMan

iMouse said:


> So, the call was off the record, and she wasn't representing the PMO, who pays her to put her butt in that seat.??
> 
> How about the long-distance charges?
> 
> Which phone did she use to make the call? Too petty you say?
> 
> Have you never heard of 'principle'.


Principle & Politics; The very definition of an oxymoron.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think that's nonsense. Rae has always been poker faced at the best of times.
> 
> I think you're reading far too much into this, what beyond your assumptions based on Rae's lack of expression is there to show Rae has little respect for Trudeau??


You don't watch much QP do you? I watch it every day, it is part of my job. Rae often has smirk on his face after he or someone else delivers a good question well.

It's my opinion, mmkkk... I said probably... it has about as much certainty to it as your suppositions do based on media reports as opposed to first had knowledge or experience.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> You don't watch much QP do you? I watch it every day, it is part of my job. Rae often has smirk on his face after he or someone else delivers a good question well.
> 
> It's my opinion, mmkkk... I said probably... it has about as much certainty to it as your suppositions do based on media reports as opposed to first had knowledge or experience.


You're asking me to prove a negative. 

And yes I have watched my fair share of QP. I have watched Bob Rae right from his early days. Now if you're telling us Bob Rae doesn't think much of Trudeau etc etc, then I'm going to need a lot more than "I watch QP a lot'.

Just today Bob Rae is gushing that Trudeau will be Canada's next PM. If he really didn't think much of Trudeau, he would have simply been gracious and exited without this gushing on Trudeau.

Now on this news bit about the PMO's office being outed on providing journalists this 'directive' on publishing the story. 

Here's a good read:

The Tyee – How Harper's Office Is Playing News Editor



> But on Monday, Meekes misjudged her minions when she contacted the Barrie Advance with information about how Justin Trudeau allegedly made a money-losing fundraising speech for Barrie's Georgian College in 2007. Meekes supplied invoices, a poster, and a receipt for accommodations at the Four Seasons to prove Trudeau committed motivational speaking before he was an MP.
> 
> What isn't clear is how much public money went into investigating the legal business of a private citizen and why a public servant in the government would be assigned to slag-off Harper's political enemies at taxpayer expense.


The story goes on to expose the tory links within that charity, and ironically the charity, apparently is not so well managed as it turns out...


----------



## Sonal

Is it a dislike of Justin Trudeau specifically, or a dislike of the realization that Bob Rae will never have the top job and a fear of ending his long political career as a has-been? 

When Rae was Trudeau's age, he was elected Premier of Ontario... where he promptly became one of the least-liked premiers, leading to many years of the NDP being unelectable provincially and hurting his career in federal politics. (Seriously, the guy lost to Stephane Dion.) 

He's had a long and difficult career. As such, I suspect that whatever he feels towards JT, it's probably complicated by many things.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Is it a dislike of Justin Trudeau specifically, or a dislike of the realization that Bob Rae will never have the top job and a fear of ending his long political career as a has-been?
> 
> When Rae was Trudeau's age, he was elected Premier of Ontario... where he promptly became one of the least-liked premiers, leading to many years of the NDP being unelectable provincially and hurting his career in federal politics. (Seriously, the guy lost to Stephane Dion.)
> 
> He's had a long and difficult career. As such, I suspect that whatever he feels towards JT, it's probably complicated by many things.


This seems like the most reasonable explanation.


----------



## groovetube

I agree. I think it's pretty clear bob Rae was after being the next PM as liberal leader, and to be outdone by Trudeau had to be a disappointment.


----------



## iMouse

They say that all's fair in love and war, but I didn't know that the PMO loved us *that* much?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You're asking me to prove a negative.
> 
> And yes I have watched my fair share of QP. I have watched Bob Rae right from his early days. Now if you're telling us Bob Rae doesn't think much of Trudeau etc etc, then I'm going to need a lot more than "I watch QP a lot'.
> 
> Just today Bob Rae is gushing that Trudeau will be Canada's next PM. If he really didn't think much of Trudeau, he would have simply been gracious and exited without this gushing on Trudeau.
> 
> Now on this news bit about the PMO's office being outed on providing journalists this 'directive' on publishing the story.
> 
> Here's a good read:
> 
> The Tyee – How Harper's Office Is Playing News Editor
> 
> 
> 
> The story goes on to expose the tory links within that charity, and ironically the charity, apparently is not so well managed as it turns out...


No I'm not. You're not quite following along. I'm not asking you to prove anything.

Of course he is going to play nice re JT for the cameras he is still a team player, there is absolutely nothing telling in that at all.

Oh and BTW I'm not trying to convince you of anything, it was an opinion/speculation that I stated based on watching Rae's reactions when JT speaks in the House. I really don't care if you agree or not.

Next.


----------



## groovetube

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. I was just wondering if anyone else is saying the same thing, any news articles, opinion pieces, anything.


----------



## groovetube

A charity that should be out of business | Full Comment | National Post

Hmm. It seems this attack on Trudeau by the conservatives for his speaking gig (which was apparently before, he was an mp?) is really beginning to backfire.


----------



## BigDL

My first though was, a charity that had an overhead of at least $20K what was the fund raising goal?

I only give to charities that have a fund raising budget of 15% or less of the goal. 

As soon as I heard that MP Rob Moore my MP was involved I knew there would be a smell test failure on the go.


----------



## groovetube

It seems things have backfired and they've drawn the spotlight on themselves.

Didn't quite think this one through.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> A charity that should be out of business | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> Hmm. It seems this attack on Trudeau by the conservatives for his speaking gig (which was apparently before, he was an mp?) is really beginning to backfire.


Hah. Brett Wilson. 

You are going to take his word, as a multimillionaire capitalist, as some sort of gospel to make a comparison to JT as a paid public servant and his words have any validity as a direct comparison to the reality of what it means to be a public servant?

Seems the JT fan club will cling on to any rationalization, no matter who it is written by, to justify JT's obvious double dipping.

Mr. Wilson is so misguided in his statements that it is quite obvious he has no appreciation for what it means to be paid by the tax payer as an MP who is supposed to be on the job and begs off work (all the while collecting a healthy pay check) to go to a speaking event to make even more money while he should be on the job that the the tax payer is paying for...

All this article does is point to Mr. Wilson's ignorance of the ethics of the public sector and what a sitting MP should be doing and not doing.

Even Charlie Angus of the NDP knows what JT has been doing is wrong and unethical.



> NDP MP Charlie Angus told reporters outside the House of Commons Monday, "I was personally absolutely shocked that this was allowable." He said MPs are regularly asked to speak at schools or charitable events, but he's never heard of anyone charging for the service.
> 
> Angus continued that he does know of MPs who are doctors or nurses who work the occasional shift in hospital emergency departments to keep up their licence, but added, "What we don't make allowances for is people skipping votes, having terrible attendance records and running a side business."


What is also laughable is that the National Post was incapable of getting their facts straight regarding Mr. Wilson's credentials:



> W. Brett Wilson, is a Canadian business leader, philanthropist, *and panelist on CBC’s “Dragons’ Den*.”


He hasn't been a panelist on CBC’s “Dragons’ Den for over a year now. He was replaced in March 2012 by David Chilton of "The Wealthy Barber" fame... too funny. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Hah. Brett Wilson.
> 
> You are going to take his word as a multimillionaire capitalist as some sort of comparison to JT as a paid public servant and his words to make any direct comparison to the reality of what it means to be a public servant?
> 
> Seems the JT fan club will cling on to any rationalization, no matter who it is written by, to justify JT's obvious double dipping.
> 
> Mr. Wilson is so misguided in his statements that it is quite obvious he has no appreciation for what it means to be paid by the tax payer as an MP who is supposed to be on the job and begs off work (all the while collecting a healthy pay check) to go to a speaking event to make even more money while he should be on the job that the the tax payer is paying for...
> 
> All this article does is point to Mr. Wilson's ignorance of the ethics of the public sector and what a sitting MP should be doing and not doing.
> 
> Even Charlie Angus of the NDP knows what JT has been doing is wrong and unethical.


uhhh. It was my understanding that not only, is it quite legal (and therefore NOT double dipping as you presume) but Justin Trudeau is far from the only one who has made money in speaking engagements.

Conservatives have tried very very hard to make this about Trudeau 'double dipping', and beat up a poor charity.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

And now, we have the story of PMO trying to change the channel on the tory scandals (btw did they ever find that 3.1 BILLION dollars? A simple accounting error I'm sure  )

as well, as the spotlight on the conservative innvolved with this charity, which apparently, is really badly managed.

The story indeed, got quite interesting! 

But I think as you have said numerous times on stories regarding the tories, this really is much ado about nothing 

Let's get back to things like the senate scandal involving the PMO, the missing 3.1 billion (if it hasn't been found yet), and lots of other very disturbing things occurring.


----------



## screature

Nice dodge by excluding what Charlie Angus said so I will repeat it...



> NDP MP Charlie Angus told reporters outside the House of Commons Monday, "I was personally absolutely shocked that this was allowable." He said MPs are regularly asked to speak at schools or charitable events, but he's never heard of anyone charging for the service.
> 
> Angus continued that he does know of MPs who are doctors or nurses who work the occasional shift in hospital emergency departments to keep up their licence, but added, "What we don't make allowances for is people skipping votes, having terrible attendance records and running a side business."


Seems even those on the other left can see the double dipping.

It really doesn't matter where the info came from, the fact is JT is double dipping, shirking his Parliamentary duties to run a business on the side... the fact that you are want to justify it is very telling indeed.

I can only imagine the ethical standards of JT as Prime Minister...

"You want me to speak to your Group X... just pay me $50K and I am on board." 

It is to laugh. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Nice dodge by excluding what Charlie Angus said so I will repeat it...
> 
> 
> 
> Seems even those on the other left can see the double dipping.
> 
> It really doesn't matter where the info came from, the fact is JT is double dipping, shirking his Parliamentary duties to run a business on the side... the fact that you are want to justify it is very telling indeed.


I'm not justifying it, any more than you justified other MPs/cabinet ministers where the ethics commissioner cleared things in the past.

I don't think he or any other MP/senator who are currently doing the same things (but no one said anything about it until now...) should be allowed to, and they should change the rules to prohibit it.

I like Charlie Angus ( he was a downtown musician years ago...) but I'm surprised that he'd be 'shocked' at something known and done for some time now that is clearly allowed.

Bottom line, I think they shouldn't allow it, change the rules, and this is clearly an attempt by the conservatives to shift the focus on their growing scandals, which, seems to have only backfired on them.

A sad story all round.


----------



## BigDL

*Looky, Looky, Looky!*

Well here we go I said earlier here with Rob Moore involvement the situation wouldn't pass the smell test, plug your nose...


CBCNews said:


> The Grace Foundation never intended for its dispute with Justin Trudeau to become a political topic in the House of Commons, says chairman Ian Webster.
> 
> The charity paid Trudeau $20,000 to speak at a fundraiser for the nursing home last summer, but ended up losing money and subsequently asked the federal Liberal leader for a refund.
> 
> The federal Conservatives have been accusing Trudeau of caring more about making money than serving the public.
> 
> Conservative MP for Fundy-Royal Rob Moore has said the charity asked him to pressure Trudeau to return his fee after a letter to Trudeau did not work.
> 
> But in a statement issued late on Thursday, Webster said the board did not authorize anyone to approach Moore or any political person on the speaking fee dispute.


The rest of the story here Grace Foundation 'deeply distressed' over Trudeau dispute - New Brunswick - CBC News


----------



## iMouse

This is getting very interesting, and harder than Hell to spin.

Election, property records seized as RCMP expands Senate expenses investigation - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

this whole thing truly is, getting interesting.

I think I'll stock up on more popcorn


----------



## groovetube

John Baird vacation in London didn’t cost taxpayers, Conservatives say | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

They just don't seem to get that the optics of this is just bad. Using taxpayer paid for residences for their own personal free vacation use, seems to me (and to many) clear evidence of entitlement.

Perhaps taxpayers can get a shot at staying there for free too. Afterall, WE are, playing for it??? Well you know whenever this government denies anything...

And oh lookie: Bell B429 helicopter: MPs question $200M contract; Eurocopter files suit | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

oh man. But it's only 200 million... loose change.


----------



## Ottawaman




----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


>


Frank! Haven't seen you in a while. 

Hilarious graphic. Though there actually are conservatives who do speak for money, though this is kept a little quiet.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> This is getting very interesting, and harder than Hell to spin.
> 
> Election, property records seized as RCMP expands Senate expenses investigation - The Globe and Mail





groovetube said:


> this whole thing truly is, getting interesting.
> 
> I think I'll stock up on more popcorn


With a RCMP investigation going on did you think there wouldn't be documents seized by the RCMP? How can they investigate if they don't have documents to examine?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> John Baird vacation in London didn’t cost taxpayers, Conservatives say | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> They just don't seem to get that the optics of this is just bad. Using taxpayer paid for residences for their own personal free vacation use, seems to me (and to many) clear evidence of entitlement.
> 
> Perhaps taxpayers can get a shot at staying there for free too. Afterall, WE are, playing for it??? Well you know whenever this government denies anything...
> 
> And oh lookie: Bell B429 helicopter: MPs question $200M contract; Eurocopter files suit | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post
> 
> oh man. But it's only 200 million... loose change.


The optics are only bad for those who want to make mountains out of molehills...

Campbell invited them to stay, he wasn't going to be there and he pays a portion of the rent for the apartment they were staying in. 

I say he can invite whoever the hell he wants to stay in his pad when he isn't there.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm not justifying it, any more than you justified other MPs/cabinet ministers where the ethics commissioner cleared things in the past.
> 
> *I don't think he or any other MP/senator who are currently doing the same things (but no one said anything about it until now...) should be allowed to, and they should change the rules to prohibit it.*
> 
> I like Charlie Angus ( he was a downtown musician years ago...) but I'm surprised that he'd be 'shocked' at something known and done for some time now that is clearly allowed.
> 
> Bottom line, I think they shouldn't allow it, change the rules, and this is clearly an attempt by the conservatives to shift the focus on their growing scandals,* which, seems to have only backfired on them.*
> 
> A sad story all round.


Agreed.

Disagreed.

Here is someone who clearly gets it... Great rebuttal to Mr. Wilson.

Canadians already pay MPs to talk 


> It is a joy, though often a lonely one, to be a capitalist in the Saskatchewan media. And this week a couple of friends wondered if I'm betraying my own philosophy.
> 
> It was over the Justin Trudeau-inspired debate on whether MPs should take separate fees for speaking on public issues, as Trudeau has from a range of clients from school boards to unions, business groups to charities.
> 
> A couple of friends, including business whiz Brett Wilson, wondered why a free enterpriser like me would be so troubled by the thought of MPs, senators and MLAs charging fees for speeches. If people want to pay a famous and accomplished Canadian, why not?
> 
> For me, it's less about the market economy than it is an accountable and ethical approach to public life.
> 
> As a former MP, the memories are still vivid years later of work weeks often topping 70 hours of dealing with constituents on various issues, briefing and preparing parliamentary committee work and advancing issues in the party caucus and the House of Commons.
> 
> This is life for most MPs, regardless of party. And, when the long week is done, a gruelling weekly travel schedule between Ottawa and home is standard fare.
> 
> A regular part of life for most politicians is speaking to audiences, from casual encounters with a local community organization at home to making formal speeches at national conferences around the country, often on topics related to an MP's expertise or passion.
> 
> Public political figures speak all the time, and most do not expect to receive a penny. It is their job.
> 
> To be sure, when an MP or senator is invited to speak, his or her expenses should be covered - hotels, travel, meals - when it's not considered to be strictly parliamentary business. But the idea of an MP, MLA or senator pocketing a cheque as a professional speaker is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Because politicians, as part of their already paid duties, are expected to appear in public to speak, if they start charging, does this mean that taxpaying citizens, who already pay them, get to pay them again?
> 
> What about organizations, charities or groups that are unable to afford a politician? Are we now instituting a user-pay system for democracy?
> 
> The payment of money can also easily be used to buy influence. Although most of Trudeau's most ardent defenders point out his decision not to continue charging fees once he became Liberal leader, that's a distinction without a difference.
> 
> If, because of his cachet, busy schedule and superior speaking skills, it's OK to pay an MP $20,000, surely a leader who has far more profile and a busier schedule should be worth at least double that amount.
> 
> The reason public officials are paid decently (or in some cases, well) and why we have codes of ethics and conduct, is to ensure that money and gifts cannot be paid to them in order to grease the wheels and buy influence. This is why the U.S. Congress outlawed all speakers' fees and honoraria in 1991.
> 
> Some have attempted to compare public speaking - even by a celebrity MP - to other jobs or work that MPs may do in their spare time. There is a world of difference between paying someone to do what every MP routinely does and an MP spending a few hours at a family business or building up hours or practice credits as a nurse, dentist, teacher or lawyer.
> 
> So what if someone was truly well known before they became an MP, MLA or senator - and they charged appearance and speech fees as a football or hockey star, astronaut, renowned surgeon, famous journalist, retired general or the like? So what?
> 
> When these people chose to run for election - or chose to accept appointment as senators - they traded on their fame to get the job. And now they should know that they are parliamentarians first, with an obligation to behave with transparency and propriety.
> 
> They can go back on the paid speakers' circuit when they're done as public servants.
> 
> To those who suggest Trudeau was simply moonlighting to provide a future for his wife and young family, here's an answer - don't be an MP. The pay and privacy are far better for a celebrity Canadian.
> 
> And for the growing number of senators being outed for collecting speakers' fees, you didn't have to accept the job.
> 
> Maybe they're all in over their heads.


----------



## iMouse

> Canadians already pay MPs to talk


If we double it will they also listen?


----------



## jimbotelecom

.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Disagreed.
> 
> Here is someone who clearly gets it... Great rebuttal to Mr. Wilson.
> 
> Canadians already pay MPs to talk


well we agree they should change the rules.

But the way this all came out, it did indeed backfire on them. First, the PMO got outed for doing 'the dirty work', and second, it's shone a spotlight on a badly managed charity with the connection to the conservative MP. 

Backfire.

I think they need something far better on Justin to knock a chip out of his polish he currently has.

It proved to be a minor distraction on the bigger scandals etc, but not as big a one as they hoped. Complete with some fingers pointed back.


----------



## Sonal

I'm pretty sure that no one's thinking differently about Justin Trudeau after this, so as a strategy to discredit him... yep, fail.

The rules certainly need to be clarified as to what kind of work is permissible.... a professional public speaker charges for their work. Doesn't matter if it's a charitable event or what. The optics of this might look a bit off, but Trudeau's offered to make it right by either refunding fees or donating his time, so what more can he do here? 

Likewise, the optics of a non-partisan office like the PMO actively trying to discredit a leader of an opposition party in the media looks off.... I await the PMO's actions to make this right.


----------



## whatiwant

The gov has been pretty good at throwing it's own under the bus thus far saying they acted alone.


----------



## Sonal

Yes, it is totally and completely believable to think that those wild rogue staffers in the PMO's office acted alone.....


----------



## groovetube

Go with an excuse strategy that works I guess. It's hard to believe anyone would buy it but people have, at least for now. But it's an excuse that's fast wearing thin, it won't help much for the next 2 years of inevitable scandal/hand in the cookie jar upcoming.


----------



## eMacMan

Sonal said:


> Yes, it is totally and completely believable to think that those wild rogue staffers in the PMO's office acted alone.....


Still it seems a little strange that an PM who scripts every word his cabinet members and backbenchers say, would be so out of control of his own office.


----------



## heavyall

Sonal said:


> ILikewise, the optics of a non-partisan office like the PMO actively trying to discredit a leader of an opposition party in the media looks off.... I await the PMO's actions to make this right.


The nerve of them! Trying to make journalists actually do their job!


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> The nerve of them! Trying to make journalists actually do their job!


That's an interesting spin, given the circumstances. :lmao:


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I*'m pretty sure that no one's thinking differently about Justin Trudeau after this*, so as a strategy to discredit him... yep, fail.
> 
> The rules certainly need to be clarified as to what kind of work is permissible.... a professional public speaker charges for their work. Doesn't matter if it's a charitable event or what. The optics of this might look a bit off, but Trudeau's offered to make it right by either refunding fees or donating his time, so what more can he do here?
> 
> Likewise, the optics of a non-partisan office like the PMO actively trying to discredit a leader of an opposition party in the media looks off.... I await the PMO's actions to make this right.


I know for a fact some people are as I have received e-mails at work about it... it may not be a ground swell but for some people it adds to the reasons why they think JT is not ready for the job of PM.

Did you read the article I linked to and posted... all "public speakers" are not equal in what is "acceptable". To think otherwise is either just naive (a la Bret Wilson) i.e., not knowing what is ethically expected of a public servant, or willfully partisan.

Yeah like JT while he was a sitting MP was speaking as an "education advocate" and not an MP?  Give me a break.

Ha! The PMO is a non-partisan office? :lmao:

Take a look at what the PMO did under Chretien... much the same sorta chite... how do you think the Cons learned how to do this stuff? They followed Chretien's playbook.


----------



## Sonal

heavyall said:


> The nerve of them! Trying to make journalists actually do their job!


Yes, and the journalists did their job by reporting on a non-partisan office attempting to secretly discredit an opposition party's leader.

Q&A with Barrie Advance editor on deciding to publish PMO-Trudeau leak | J-source.ca


----------



## arminia

[QUOTE it may not be a ground swell but for some people it adds to the reasons why they think JT is not ready for the job of PM.[/QUOTE]

What qualifications did Harper have that made him ready to be the PM?


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I know for a fact some people are as I have received e-mails at work about it... it may not be a ground swell but for some people it *adds* to the reasons why they think JT is not ready for the job of PM.


If it's adding to the reasons, then clearly they weren't JT fans to begin with. As such, their opinion hasn't changed so much as it's more firmly entrenched.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I know for a fact some people are as I have received e-mails at work about it... it may not be a ground swell but for some people it adds to the reasons why they think JT is not ready for the job of PM.
> 
> Did you read the article I linked to and posted... all "public speakers" are not equal in what is "acceptable" to think otherwise is either just naive i.e., not knowing what is ethically expected of a public servant, or willfully partisan.


I think you're wildly overstating here. You have to remember, if people care little and have have given Harper a pass a number of times from pleading guilty to violating election rules to Clement's taking 50 million to shower on his riding to all sorts of things, do you really think that this item on JT would really gain any real traction? 

I don't think even the PMO who provided the story (and got outted...) thought it would gain much traction, other than to simply help change the channel briefly.



screature said:


> Yeah like JT while he was a sitting MP was speaking as an "education advocate" and not an MP?  Give me a break.
> 
> Ha! The PMO is a non-partisan office? :lmao:
> 
> Take a look at what the PMO did under Chretien... much the same sorta Chite... how do you think the Cons learned how to do this stuff? They followed Chretien's playbook.


Once again, more proof positive that this government, isn't much better than the chretien liberals.

Actually they're becoming worse by the looks of things...


----------



## iMouse

A scathing review of the average Canadian voter there Tim.

No objections.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> A scathing review of the average Canadian voter there Tim.
> 
> No objections.


Sure. If people think voters are relatively uninterested in the misdeeds of Harper and co, what makes them think they will be any more interested in JTs?

Especially when this government is 7 years in, tired, and becoming more and more scandal laden.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Sure. If people think voters are relatively uninterested in the misdeeds of Harper and co, what makes them think they will be any more interested in JTs?
> 
> Especially when this government is 7 years in, tired, and becoming more and more scandal laden.


And also.... Justin Trudeau has taken steps to make this right.

Your move, Harper government.


----------



## bryanc

arminia said:


> What qualifications did Harper have that made him ready to be the PM?


An epic pile of cash donated by corporate backers and a mob of mindless social conservatives who'd support him regardless of how it negatively affects their own self interest.


----------



## mrjimmy

bryanc said:


> An epic pile of cash donated by corporate backers and a mob of mindless social conservatives who'd support him regardless of how it negatively affects their own self interest.


Testify!


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> testify!


👐 !!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh yeah baby!


----------



## MacGuiver

I think the Conservatives need to meet the Justine threat head on. That means they need a new face with the same qualities that make Justine so wonderful. I'm surprised they haven't recognized the man for the job.
Enter Ben Mulroney.









Young/hip........................................Check
Rich PM Daddy.................................Check
Good hair and dreamy eyes..............Check
Early life of privilege.........................Check
Celebrity ..........................................Check
Little political/business experience...Check
Dad messed up the country..............Check
Great talker......................................Check

He's got the "political" mojo to get elected. Running the country? Not so much.


----------



## Sonal

Ben Mulroney's hair and eyes cannot compete with Justin Trudeau's. Trust me on this. 

Incidentally, Brian Mulroney warns others not to underestimate Justin Trudeau.
Brian Mulroney on Justin Trudeau: 'What’s not to like?' | CTV News


----------



## groovetube

I find it somewhat interesting that conservatives always need to cast JT as effeminate. 

And yes, suggesting ben mulroney as someone who can meet JT head-on, go for it I say!

(snapping fingers...) he's hip... he's cool, he's got it goin on...

Sorta sounds like listening to the old dudes in a label office getting excited about some new artist that they think has it (but doesn't). 

The appearance of youth and hip, misses the whole "it' factor. Completely.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I find it somewhat interesting that conservatives always need to cast JT as effeminate.


Perhaps we can remind them of the whippin' he gave Brazeau. He's just not old and fat like all their personal faves.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I find it somewhat interesting that conservatives always need to cast JT as effeminate.
> 
> And yes, suggesting ben mulroney as someone who can meet JT head-on, go for it I say!
> 
> (snapping fingers...) he's hip... he's cool, he's got it goin on...
> 
> Sorta sounds like listening to the old dudes in a label office getting excited about some new artist that they think has it (but doesn't).
> 
> The appearance of youth and hip, misses the whole "it' factor. Completely.


:lmao:

Yes. Those who think that the basis of Justin Trudeau's appeal is solely based in the fact that he is young, handsome and has nice hair really do not get it. 

And that's fine, because if those people keep attacking Trudeau over these silly things, they are the ones who look silly. 

(And no, Ben Mulroney has none of the appeal of Justin Trudeau.... even if Ben Mulroney had surgery to look identical to Justin Trudeau, he would still not have the same appeal.)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Certainly a laughable idea given his pappy's proclivity for taking cash payments and the fact he still hasn't given back the $2 million he was awarded before his lies were revealed. 

The Mulroney name has been sullied and ruined to the equivalent of a sewage treatment plant. His gramma must be beside herself in her Baie Comeau grave.


----------



## heavyall

bryanc said:


> An epic pile of cash donated by corporate backers


Name them.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> Name them.


Hmmmmm. Let's start with Nigel Wright ltd., but that's too easy. How about Enbridge? Gwyn Morgan. Gee man google is your buddy too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Yes. Those who think that the basis of Justin Trudeau's appeal is solely based in the fact that he is young, handsome and has nice hair really do not get it.
> 
> And that's fine, because if those people keep attacking Trudeau over these silly things, they are the ones who look silly.
> 
> (And no, Ben Mulroney has none of the appeal of Justin Trudeau.... even if Ben Mulroney had surgery to look identical to Justin Trudeau, he would still not have the same appeal.)


So what is it about JT that you find appealing as a leader and a political force say if he looked like Stephan Dion or Iggy? What exactly does he bring to the table in terms of policy and new ideas?

I would really be interested in knowing because they way I see it he brings nothing substantive at all, at least anything that is positive.

He potentially could be a huge embarrassment on the international front though from what I have seen.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hmmmmm. Let's start with Nigel Wright ltd., but that's too easy. How about Enbridge? Gwyn Morgan. Gee man google is your buddy too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Uh no not so, corporate donations were made illegal by this government... nice try even though it is completely without any merit in fact. 

The Conservatives make their money by receiving donations from 3x the number donors than their closest rival, the Liberals.

Federal political financing in Canada


----------



## groovetube

given what we know, since when does 'illegal' stop this government?


(or ones before it to be fair)


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> given what we know, since when does 'illegal' stop this government?


Try looking at the facts rather than ignorant speculation.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> given what we know, since when does 'illegal' stop this government?
> 
> 
> (or ones before it to be fair)


Want to know who did receive huge illegal donations though.... the NDP from unions.

NDP repays $344K in sponsorship money...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Uh no not so, corporate donations were made illegal by this government... nice try even though it is completely without and merit in fact.
> 
> The Conservatives make their money by receiving donations from 3x the number donors than their closest rival, the Liberals.
> 
> Federal political financing in Canada


Yuk yuk yuk. Yup corporations don't hold fundraisers and companies don't encourage their employees to make contributions. See the Peterborough MP's current battle with Elections Canada. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Try looking at the facts rather than ignorant speculation.


well between the breaking of election rules, Del Maestro and the rest of the crews, I am looking facts! 

And I suspect that this is just what we know about.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> So what is it about JT that you find appealing as a leader and a political force say if he looked like Stephan Dion or Iggy? What exactly does he bring to the table in terms of policy and new ideas?


You're asking about policy and ideas, and I am addressing the attacks on his hair, youth, appearance, parentage and (most bizarrely) masculinity, which have nothing to do with policy or ideas.... We're not quite on the same page.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well between the breaking of election rules, Del Maestro and the rest of the crews, I am looking facts!
> 
> And I suspect that this is just what we know about.


Uh no your not were talking about from where they get their money.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> You're asking about policy and ideas, and I am addressing the attacks on his hair, youth, appearance, parentage and (most bizarrely) masculinity, which have nothing to do with policy or ideas.... We're not quite on the same page.


Got nothing I guess... Just like JT.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Uh no your not were talking about from where they get their money.


In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter to me what the source is, as long as it doesn't break the rules.

Which the conservatives has clearly done, many times.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Got nothing I guess... Just like JT.


No, I'm just not interested in a predictable line of argument.

First, people attack Justin Trudeau for things that have nothing to do with policy.

Then, people defend Justin Trudeau for things that have nothing do with policy.

Then, the first group says "Tell me about what you like about him."

Then the second group responds, and the first group says "Ha, nothing about policy!" even though they weren't attacking him on anything about policy in the first place.

I believe the name of this logical fallacy is called "Moving the Goal Posts."


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> In the scheme of things,* it doesn't matter to me what the source is, as long as it doesn't break the rules.*
> 
> Which the conservatives has clearly done, many times.


The NDP did break the rules...

NDP repays $344K in sponsorship money



> The election watchdog said the New Democrats broke the rules after accepting sponsorship money from large unions during the NDP's national convention last June.
> 
> Elections Canada noted that the sponsorships constituted contributions, and because parties can't accept contributions from unions, the money was considered ineligible.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> No, I'm just not interested in a predictable line of argument.
> 
> First, people attack Justin Trudeau for things that have nothing to do with policy.
> 
> Then, people defend Justin Trudeau for things that have nothing do with policy.
> 
> Then, the first group says "Tell me about what you like about him."
> 
> Then the second group responds, and the first group says "Ha, nothing about policy!" even though they weren't attacking him on anything about policy in the first place.
> 
> I believe the name of this logical fallacy is called "Moving the Goal Posts."


No you defend him by saying his looks shouldn't be the point so if it isn't the point then why do you like him beside the fact that he is cute and has nice hair.

Really simple actually.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> No you defend him by saying his looks shouldn't be the point so if it isn't the point then why do you like him beside the fact that he is cute and has nice hair.
> 
> Really simple actually.


I have reasons that have nothing to do with his looks, and I'll be happy to discuss them with anyone who isn't going down the predictable line of argument I mentioned earlier.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wow anyone see the commander in chief jacket that Harper managed to get over his paunch yesterday in Calgary. Looks OGL like or even Stalinesque. Good thing he didn't roll out a mission accomplished banner behind him. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I have reasons that have nothing to do with his looks, and I'll be happy to discuss them with anyone who isn't going down the predictable line of argument I mentioned earlier.


Not going down the path you are talking about that is your own construction and presumption. So let's hear them...

Oh and BTW they have attacked him on policy and his statements numerous times, you just choose to cherry pick the aspects of their criticism that you don't like.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Not going down the path you are talking about that is your own construction and presumption.


I see that you are not interested in the discussion that I propose.  Thanks anyway.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I see that you are not interested in the discussion that I propose. Thanks anyway.


Oh so trite... let's hear why you like him based on policy and ideas? Seems you only want to dodge.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Oh so trite... let's hear why you like him based on policy and ideas? Seems you only want to dodge.


GIven that I've been pretty clear about the type of discussion I'm interested in having, your continued attempts to draw me into a different type of discussion implies that you are mostly interested in attacking me.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Oh so trite... let's hear why you like him based on policy and ideas? Seems you only want to dodge.


The man has a free kiss and hugs programme.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wow anyone see the commander in chief jacket that Harper managed to get over his paunch yesterday in Calgary. Looks OGL like or even Stalinesque. Good thing he didn't roll out a mission accomplished banner behind him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Looks to me to be in about the same shape as Naheed Nenshi... a little better actually.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> GIven that I've been pretty clear about the type of discussion I'm interested in having, your continued attempts to draw me into a different type of discussion implies that you are mostly interested in attacking me.


How so do you want to talk issues (policy and ideas) or not? 

That is what I have repeatedly asked for and you repeatedly dodge based on some rather condescending presumption that you know where the discussion will lead and how it will play out.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Looks to me to be in about the same shape as Naheed Nenshi... a little better actually.


Yeah that's the jacket. CDN military fer sure. First time I've seen a PM in military garb vs Nenshi's pedestrian windbreaker. Nenshi had been working and hadn't cleaned himself up for a good bit of time. Easy to identify the doers from the poseurs. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> How so do you want to talk issues (policy and ideas) or not?
> 
> That is what I have repeatedly asked for and you repeatedly dodge based on some rather condescending presumption that you know where the discussion will lead and how it will play out.


I'd appreciate it if you'd skip the insults, thanks. This isn't the only place where I discuss politics, and I've seen the same thing happen repeatedly.

I'm willing to discuss the reasons why people (myself included) like Justin Trudeau that have nothing to do with policy--personality, charisma, other ephemeral qualities--that go beyond shallow issues of his looks. Reasons why you couldn't simply substitute in another famous politician's child (e.g., Ben Mulroney, as suggested upthread) and have the same effect.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hmmmmm. Let's start with Nigel Wright ltd., but that's too easy. How about Enbridge? Gwyn Morgan. Gee man google is your buddy too.


Nice try. We have a maximum contribution limit in this country, and it's the same for everyone. $1200 a year. The Conservative Party has more money because they have more supporters, not because any specific people give larger donations.

Unions and corporations are not allowed to donate at all. Zero. Nothing.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The NDP did break the rules...
> 
> NDP repays $344K in sponsorship money


I don't think I have said that the ndp haven't broken the rules. But we were talking about our government, the conservatives. You are basically trying to say, 'well ok, but since the ndp did it too, it's ok'.

You keep moving the goal posts here. Have the conservatives broken the rules regarding financing, or not?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeah that's the jacket. CDN military fer sure. First time I've seen a PM in military garb vs Nenshi's pedestrian windbreaker. Nenshi had been working and hadn't cleaned himself up for a good bit of time. Easy to identify the doers from the poseurs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD





> Canadian Forces from Edmonton have been mobilized to aid in rescue efforts, including 600 soldiers en route to southern Alberta. Another 600 troops were expected to be deployed by mid-afternoon, and will be directed by the province.
> 
> The Armed Forces already have reconnaissance parties in Cochrane, High River and Calgary, assessing what is going on.


He was clearly wearing the jacket in support of their efforts.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I don't think I have said that the ndp haven't broken the rules. But we were talking about our government, the conservatives. You are basically trying to say, 'well ok, but since the ndp did it too, it's ok'.
> 
> You keep moving the goal posts here. Have the conservatives broken the rules regarding financing, or not?


Talk about moving the goal posts...

What we were talking about followed from bryanc's claim that the Conservatives are supported by corporate dollars, I indicated and provided evidence that they are not and all you came up with was speculation and innuendo.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Nice try. We have a maximum contribution limit in this country, and it's the same for everyone. $1200 a year. The Conservative Party has more money because they have more supporters, not because any specific people give larger donations.
> 
> Unions and corporations are not allowed to donate at all. Zero. Nothing.


Exactly.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Talk about moving the goal posts...
> 
> What we were talking about followed from bryanc's claim that the Conservatives are supported by corporate dollars, I indicated and provided evidence that they are not and all you came up with was speculation and innuendo.


no, you said the reason why they didn't do was because it was 'illegal'.

I merely pointed out that clearly, in the other cases of financing that hasn't stopped them before.

Just... to be... clear.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Exactly.


You guys are hilarious. Thanks. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I*'d appreciate it if you'd skip the insults, thanks.* This isn't the only place where I discuss politics, and I've seen the same thing happen repeatedly.
> 
> *I'm willing to discuss the reasons why people (myself included) like Justin Trudeau that have nothing to do with policy*--personality, charisma, other ephemeral qualities--that go beyond shallow issues of his looks. Reasons why you couldn't simply substitute in another famous politician's child (e.g., Ben Mulroney, as suggested upthread) and have the same effect.


What insults? You present a presumption of knowing where the discussion will lead, based on nothing I have said so quite frankly I found that insulting so seeing as you seemed to be willing to go down that path I followed.

When it comes to talking about a politician why should we *not* be discussing policy?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> He was clearly wearing the jacket in support of their efforts.


Right I remember the PM on his skidoo when Toronto got shovelled out. Actually I don't remember that at all. 

And you're right Harper is doing the commander and chief a la George Bush after the Big IrakAttack thing. 

Pathetic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You guys are hilarious. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Really how so? 

So bushman where is your evidence that the CPC receives money from corporations, seeing as you seem to think you know it is the case?

Just one shred of evidence...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Really how so?
> 
> So bushman where is your evidence that the CPC receives money from corporations, seeing as you seem to think you know it is the case?
> 
> Just one shred of evidence...


I have evidence from companies I have worked for. I will not break non disclosures however, so you can choose to take my word or not. By the way it works both ways as the Liberals do it too. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> What insults? You present a presumption of knowing where the discussion will lead, based on nothing I have said so quite frankly I found that insulting so seeing as you seemed to be willing to go down that path I followed.
> 
> When it comes to talking about a politician why should we *not* be discussing policy?


I'm sorry you felt insulted by experiences I have had and witnessed numerous times.

Because numerous criticisms of Justin Trudeau have nothing to do with policy. 

If people want to discuss all the non-policy reasons they don't like Justin Trudeau, I'm willing to discuss all the non-policy reasons why I do like Justin Trudeau. Keeps everyone on the same page.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Right I remember the PM on his skidoo when Toronto got shovelled out. Actually I don't remember that at all.
> 
> And you're right Harper is doing the commander and chief a la George Bush after the Big IrakAttack thing.
> 
> Pathetic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Well you couldn't because that happened in *1999*... seems your memory is failing. 

Might want to try some ginkgo biloba it is supposed to help on that front.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> Nice try. We have a maximum contribution limit in this country, and it's the same for everyone. $1200 a year.


Well, maybe in theory but not necessarily in practice.



> Loopholes in contributions limits[edit]
> Elections Canada confirmed in 2007 that individuals could illegally contribute as much as $60,500 over the $1,100 limit and not be detected - simply by donating $200 to each of a party's 308 riding associations.[26][27][28]
> Elections Canada claimed that it currently cannot track donations of $200 or less because "we do not get the receipts" from the individual riding associations.[27] Under current regulations, a party's individual riding associations are only required to report the identities of contributors with total contributions to the riding of over $200. Contributions of $200 or less are allowed to be reported in aggregate, with no break-down by contributor required that would allow for proper cross-checking across a party's ridings associations.[26][27][28]
> At the time, the NDP called for the loophole to be plugged. The Conservative government responded that "this is no more a loophole than the fact that someone can break the law by fraudulently misstating their income on their income tax." It rejected calls by the opposition for Elections Canada to be given new measures and tools to be able to detect multiple donations across a party's ridings that exceed the contribution limit.[28]


Federal political financing in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I'm sorry you felt insulted by experiences I have had and witnessed numerous times.
> 
> Because numerous criticisms of Justin Trudeau have nothing to do with policy.
> 
> If people want to discuss all the non-policy reasons they don't like Justin Trudeau, I'm willing to discuss all the non-policy reasons why I do like Justin Trudeau. Keeps everyone on the same page.


I don't want to discuss the non-policy issues of why I don't like JT, I never entered into that aspect of the conversation that is why I asked you what I did. I was trying to lead toward a more substantive dialogue.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Well you couldn't because that happened in *1999*... seems your memory is failing.
> 
> Might want to try some ginkgo biloba it is supposed to help on that front.


Hmmmm. Yes a different pm at the time. Never showed up in Toronto and never showed up in military garb. Memory is quite vivid actually. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> no, you said the reason why they didn't do was because it was 'illegal'.
> 
> I merely pointed out that clearly, in the other cases of financing that hasn't stopped them before.
> 
> Just... to be... clear.


So if I run a red light that means I would be willing to kill a man as well?

What they did under Doug Findley's direction was based on his interpretation of the rules, he thought it was allowable. Turned out the decision went against him.

The rules regarding corporate and union donations are cut and dry.

Oh and by the way the in and out had nothing to do with raising money, it was about how the money they had already was spent during an election. Two totally different things even though you choose to try and conflate them for your own purposes.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's a piece from a conservative rag that really rips into PM Control Freak.



http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/06/22/how-the-control-freak-lost-control/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hmmmm. Yes a different pm at the time. Never showed up in Toronto and never showed up in military garb. Memory is quite vivid actually.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


So? Chretien was no friend of the military nor the military his friend. 

The military wouldn't even have wanted him to show up wearing a military jacket, unless of course if it was in an enemy's military jacket so they could have had a reason to shoot him. :lmao:


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> Well, maybe in theory but not necessarily in practice.


In PRACTICE, the Conservative Party of Canada does not allow contributions over TWENTY dollars to be anonymous and/or cash. $20 and up is always receipted and reported. Separate contributions to other ridings absolutely must not exceed a total of $1200. And, all corporations, unions, and related associations are prohibited from contributing any amount whatsoever.

https://secure.conservative.ca/Forms/cfc-web_contribution_reply.pdf


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Here's a piece from a conservative rag that really rips into PM Control Freak.
> 
> 
> 
> How the control freak lost control - Canada - Macleans.ca
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


MacLeans is a rag alright, a Liberal one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> So? Chretien was no friend of the military nor the military his friend.
> 
> The military wouldn't even have wanted him to show up wearing a military jacket, unless of course if it was in an enemy's military jacket so they could have had a reason to shoot him. :lmao:


Mind you there's a great photo of him with his Helmet on in reverse. 

I'm surprised the media hasn't commented on Steve's commander in chief jacket. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> So if I run a red light that means I would be willing to kill a man as well?
> 
> What they under Doug Finley's direction was based on his interpretation of the rules, he thought it was allowable. Turned out the decision went against him.
> 
> The rules regarding corporate and union donations are cut and dry.
> 
> Oh and by the way the in and out had nothing to do with raising money but it was about how the money the had already was spent during an election. Two totally different things even though you choose to try and conflate them for your own purposes.


waaaaaait. So you're suggesting that difference between breaking the law on election financing and breaking the law on financing regarding corporations, is like the difference between running a red light, and murder?

Holy cow screature. You have to know that's kinda like, really really out of whack.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

heavyall said:


> MacLeans is a rag alright, a Liberal one.


Yeah and owned by a family that has made several payments to the CONS over the years. 

Yuk yuk yuk. It's liberal alright! Hee Haw. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> waaaaaait. So you're suggesting that difference between breaking the law on election financing and breaking the law on financing regarding corporations, is like the difference between running a red light, and murder?
> 
> Holy cow screature. You have to know that's kinda like, really really out of whack.


Sigh... it was obviously an extreme example. 

But just because someone breaks the law in one way does not mean they are more likely to break it in another, I would think that you could understand that despite you efforts to conflate two separate matters.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I don't want to discuss the non-policy issues of why I don't like JT, I never entered into that aspect of the conversation that is why I asked you what I did. I was trying to lead toward a more substantive dialogue.


Well, I started on this particular topic after MacGuiver called him 'Justine' and claimed that Ben Mulroney would have a similar effect... which I disagreed with, as I believe Trudeau's appeal goes beyond looks and a famous last name. As I don't recall Ben Mulroney having any particular policy platform, I'm not sure why you thought I was gearing up for discussing policy.

You actually asked me what I find appealing about him as a leader and a political force if he looked like Ignatief or Dion, and then asked a second question about what he brings to the table about policy and new ideas. The first question does open the door to non-policy discussion--which, like it or not, are important factors in whether or not someone gets elected. (But from the second question I inferred that you were looking for a policy discussion.) 

Frankly, if the Conservative Party wants to effectively attack Justin Trudeau, they are going to have to understand his non-policy appeal.... which again, goes deeper than looks and name. So far, it doesn't seem like they quite get it. As such, they aren't doing a particularly good job of bringing Trudeau's poll numbers down.

In any case, if you are only interested in substantive dialogue, why do you so often refer to Justin Trudeau's hair, looks, personality, name, etc? If such things are so insubstantial, why bring them up at all? (Really more of a rhetorical question, but I have no problem if you choose to answer it... it's not really a substantive policy discussion though.)

Still, as I said earlier, if you are not interested in this kind of discussion, that's fine. The nice thing about forums like this is that we don't have to discuss things that we don't want to discuss, for whatever reason.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> In PRACTICE, the Conservative Party of Canada does not allow contributions over TWENTY dollars to be anonymous and/or cash. $20 and up is always receipted and reported. Separate contributions to other ridings absolutely must not exceed a total of $1200. And, all corporations, unions, and related associations are prohibited from contributing any amount whatsoever.
> 
> https://secure.conservative.ca/Forms/cfc-web_contribution_reply.pdf


i'll repost the parts that you seemed to have missed :



> Under current regulations, a party's individual riding associations are only required to report the identities of contributors with total contributions to the riding of over $200. Contributions of $200 or less are allowed to be reported in aggregate, with no break-down by contributor required that would allow for proper cross-checking across a party's ridings associations.[26][27][28]
> At the time, the NDP called for the loophole to be plugged. The Conservative government responded that "this is no more a loophole than the fact that someone can break the law by fraudulently misstating their income on their income tax." It rejected calls by the opposition for Elections Canada to be given new measures and tools to be able to detect multiple donations across a party's ridings that exceed the contribution limit.[28]


the point being if anyone involved in federal fundraising wants to circumvent the rules it is painfully simple to do, and when asked to close this loophole the party that benefits most from donations said "nope".

but as long as you're good with the honour system i'm sure it's a great way to campaign finance. lord knows no one ever breaks the law in politics.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sigh... it was obviously an extreme example.
> 
> But just because someone breaks the law in one way does not mean they are more likely to break it in another, I would think that you could understand that despite you efforts to conflate two separate matters.


I would say, that's quite the assertion.

Let's look at that again:



> just because someone breaks the law in one way does not mean they are more likely to break it in another


Yow. Do you really believe that? Seriously?


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> i'll repost the parts that you seemed to have missed :
> 
> 
> 
> the point being if anyone involved in federal fundraising wants to circumvent the rules it is painfully simple to do, and when asked to close this loophole the party that benefits most from donations said "nope".
> 
> but as long as you're good with the honour system i'm sure it's a great way to campaign finance. lord knows no one ever breaks the law in politics.


The article you linked to claims the that contributions under $200 can be anonymous/unreceipted. That is false. The limit is $20. Period. Receipts absolutely must be (and are) retained for contributions over $20. Elections Canada doesn't publish the names, but they absolutely are fully documented.

If you doubt me, just try it. Walk in to your local EDA with $200 cash, and try to donate it anonymously. Let me know how that goes.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> The article you linked to claims the that contributions under $200 can be anonymous/unreceipted. That is false. The limit is $20. Period. Receipts absolutely must be (and are) retained for contributions over $20. *Elections Canada doesn't publish the names, but they absolutely are fully documented.*
> 
> If you doubt me, just try it. Walk in to your local EDA with $200 cash, and try to donate it anonymously. Let me know how that goes.


no. elections canada can't publish the names because they don't *receive* the names :



> [edit]
> Political parties are only required to report the identities of contributors that have given a total of over $200 to one riding association or the central organization. For donations of $200 or less, receipts must be kept by the individual riding associations,* but Elections Canada has no way to keep track of them*. Completely anonymous contributions of $20 or less are permitted.


the system is based on "trust us, we won't cheat". if a political party and donator were inclined they can easily circumvent any supposed safe guard effortlessly.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> Well, maybe in theory but not necessarily in practice.
> 
> 
> 
> Federal political financing in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





heavyall said:


> Nice try. We have a maximum contribution limit in this country, and it's the same for everyone. $1200 a year. The Conservative Party has more money because they have more supporters, not because any specific people give larger donations.
> 
> Unions and corporations are not allowed to donate at all. Zero. Nothing.


Let us not forget the deep taxpayer contributions have been made to the Liberal/Conservative Party (hacks and bagman/organizers) via the senate.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> Well, I started on this particular topic after MacGuiver called him 'Justine' and claimed that Ben Mulroney would have a similar effect... which I disagreed with, as I believe Trudeau's appeal goes beyond looks and a famous last name. As I don't recall Ben Mulroney having any particular policy platform, I'm not sure why you thought I was gearing up for discussing policy.
> 
> You actually asked me what I find appealing about him as a leader and a political force if he looked like Ignatief or Dion, and then asked a second question about what he brings to the table about policy and new ideas. The first question does open the door to non-policy discussion--which, like it or not, are important factors in whether or not someone gets elected. (But from the second question I inferred that you were looking for a policy discussion.)
> 
> Frankly, if the Conservative Party wants to effectively attack Justin Trudeau, they are going to have to understand his non-policy appeal.... which again, goes deeper than looks and name. So far, it doesn't seem like they quite get it. As such, they aren't doing a particularly good job of bringing Trudeau's poll numbers down.
> 
> In any case, if you are only interested in substantive dialogue, why do you so often refer to Justin Trudeau's hair, looks, personality, name, etc? If such things are so insubstantial, why bring them up at all? (Really more of a rhetorical question, but I have no problem if you choose to answer it... it's not really a substantive policy discussion though.)
> 
> Still, as I said earlier, if you are not interested in this kind of discussion, that's fine. The nice thing about forums like this is that we don't have to discuss things that we don't want to discuss, for whatever reason.


I'm interested why people want to support a Justine Trudeau, a Jack Layton or ( an Obama first term) etc.

Without policy or a position on topics what is the draw?


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> no. elections canada can't publish the names because they don't *receive* the names :
> 
> the system is based on "trust us, we won't cheat". if a political party and donator were inclined they can easily circumvent any supposed safe guard effortlessly.


You're still quoting the same article. The point it is trying to make is false.

Try it and get back us how that works out. You will not be allowed to donate more than $20 without it being registered, period. The very reason you see examples of MPs whose expenses are in dispute, is because Elections Canada absolutely can call for all receipts at any time, and they have to be there.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Well, I started on this particular topic after MacGuiver called him 'Justine' and claimed that Ben Mulroney would have a similar effect... which I disagreed with, as I believe Trudeau's appeal goes beyond looks and a famous last name. As I don't recall Ben Mulroney having any particular policy platform, I'm not sure why you thought I was gearing up for discussing policy.
> 
> *You actually asked me what I find appealing about him as a leader and a political force if he looked like Ignatief or Dion, and then asked a second question about what he brings to the table about policy and new ideas. *The first question does open the door to non-policy discussion--which, like it or not, are important factors in whether or not someone gets elected. (But from the second question I inferred that you were looking for a policy discussion.)
> 
> Frankly, if the Conservative Party wants to effectively attack Justin Trudeau, they are going to have to understand his non-policy appeal.... *which again, goes deeper than looks and name. * So far, it doesn't seem like they quite get it. As such, they aren't doing a particularly good job of bringing Trudeau's poll numbers down.
> 
> In any case, if you are only interested in substantive dialogue, *why do you so often refer to Justin Trudeau's hair, looks, personality, name, etc? * If such things are so insubstantial, why bring them up at all? (Really more of a rhetorical question, but I have no problem if you choose to answer it... it's not really a substantive policy discussion though.)
> 
> Still, as I said earlier, if you are not interested in this kind of discussion, that's fine. *The nice thing about forums like this is that we don't have to discuss things that we don't want to discuss, for whatever reason.*


The first question was obviously to take his looks out of the equation which is why I followed up by asking what policies and new ideas does he bring to the table.

Well thus far I have not seen you mention any. 

I have never one referred to his hair or about his looks aside from the fact that they play well to a certain demographic of the public. As for his name and personality they are indeed substantive non-policy attributes but they have been discussed plenty in the past have they not?

And the nature of the discussion can change on a dime, I thought I was simply asking a question that would take the discussion down a more substantive path.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I would say, that's quite the assertion.
> 
> Let's look at that again:
> 
> 
> 
> Yow. Do you really believe that? Seriously?


It is obvious ask, any criminologist. They may be more or less likely to re-offend but starting down a different path of crime is rare except in the case of organized crime. 

Petty thieves don't suddenly start being murders or fraudsters. Speeders aren't necessarily going to start being rapists or thieves just because they speed. Most criminals stick to doing what they do best.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It is obvious ask, any criminologist. They may be more or less likely to re-offend but starting down a different path of crime is rare except in the case of organized crime.
> 
> Petty thieves don't suddenly start being murders or fraudsters. Speeders aren't necessarily going to start being rapists or thieves just because they speed. Most criminals stick to doing what they do best.


so, what exactly is the difference between electoral fraud, and financing fraud?

Is one so so much worse than the other?

I'm not buying your argument that one is running a red, and the other is murder. Breaking the laws on financing in either case isn't much different.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> s*o, what exactly is the difference between electoral fraud, and financing fraud?*
> *
> Is one so so much worse than the other?*
> 
> *I'm not buying your argument that one is running a red, and the other is murder. *Breaking the laws on financing in either case isn't much different.


Different offenses, different laws. Not necessarily worse but definitely different, separate offences.

I didn't say that. They are two separate offenses. That is the point. 

And BTW the in and out was not "electoral fraud", that's a whole different kettle of fish altogether. It was deemed that what Doug Findley orchestrated was "improper election spending".

To conflate them into the same thing or to say that because one offense was committed it is likely that the other is being committed as well is not supportable in fact.

In your world if you smoke pot you are probably running a grow Op as well.


----------



## groovetube

First, a court did indeed find electoral 'fraud'. It's just that the conservatives want us to believe they had nothing to do with it. Of course, much swamp land can be sold...  There are MPs being investigated for breaking the rules. The conservatives have shown a real disregard for rules when it comes to financing. Why would it be surprising if they broke a few more? The whole in and out scheme, they pretty much got away with it.

and two, once again, those two offences you describe are not just separate, but far far different in seriousness, just like the red light and murder. It's a silly comparison.

This is where your argument doesn't wash with me.

You would have been better off comparing running a red light to making an illegal left turn.

Certainly not implausible if you run reds by any means...


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Different offenses, different laws. Not necessarily worse but definitely different, separate offences.
> 
> I didn't say that. They are two separate offenses. That is the point.
> 
> And BTW the in and out was not "electoral fraud", that's a whole different kettle of fish altogether. It was deemed that what Doug Findley orchestrated was "improper election spending".
> 
> To conflate them into the same thing or to say that because one offense was committed it is likely that the other is being committed as well is not supportable in fact.
> 
> In your world if you smoke pot you are probably running a grow Op as well.


It was less than that. Some ridings had room in their spending limits, so the federal party gave them money to buy ads -- that is literally all that happened. 

What the other parties (especially the BQ) got caught doing, and paid NO penalty for was a true in-and-out. What happened to the CPC was yet another in a long line of ridiculous witch-hunts by Elections Canada where the CPC was absolutely following the letter of the law, and EC decided to go after them anyway. There is no evidence whatsoever (and none even alluded to by EC), that the transferred money was used for anything other than what was fully documented.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> It was less than that. Some ridings had room in their spending limits, so the federal party gave them money to buy ads -- that is literally all that happened.
> 
> What the other parties (especially the BQ) got caught doing, and paid NO penalty for was a true in-and-out. What happened to the CPC was yet another in a long line of ridiculous witch-hunts by Elections Canada where the CPC was absolutely following the letter of the law, and EC decided to go after them anyway. There is no evidence whatsoever (and none even alluded to by EC), that the transferred money was used for anything other than what was fully documented.


Actually no.

What they did, was against the rules. It was indeed, and in and out scheme, pure and simple. The conservatives got caught doing it (they weren't the only ones yes) but 'that's literally all it was', well yes. It was against the rules, and they finally pleaded guilty to it, though quietly before xmas.

And that is merely the beginning of things. As we all know.


----------



## Sonal

BigDL said:


> I'm interested why people want to support a Justine Trudeau, a Jack Layton or ( an Obama first term) etc.
> 
> Without policy or a position on topics what is the draw?


In short, optimism. 

If you are looking at all three without looking specifically at policy, then what the have in common are positive politics. People are tired of cynical doom-and-gloom, of negative attacks, of campaigns that boil down to "Vote for me because the other guy is worse." People have made fun of Obama's hope/change thing, and granted, he hasn't lived up to his expectations, but that doesn't mean people do not want those expectations.

With Justin Trudeau specifically, he gives the impression that he genuinely loves Canada, moreso than many other leaders. (Jack Layton was another who gave this impression.) Certainly, if you compare Trudeau to Ignatief that's quite clear. While I am sure that many political leaders care about Canada, not all are successful in communicating their passion for this country. Trudeau is.

Trudeau, I think, also represents a return to values that many Canadians hold, where we have a both a thriving economy and a solid social net, where we are world peacekeepers, where we are progressive and a force for good in the world... call it a return to a golden era, which like most "back in the day" types of thinking probably shows a nostalgia for an era that did not really exist. But people would like to believe that it is still possible, and Trudeau's charisma does inspire that belief, regardless of any particular plan or policy. 

In that, I think the fact that Trudeau comes across as friendly rather than polished is a plus. It creates a sense that he connects with people, and in turn inspires believability that he genuinely cares about people. This was one of the big problems with Ignatief... he came off as an irritated professor talking down to his students. No connection. (Jack Layton also gave a sense of genuinely connecting with people, but Layton had more polish in doing so.... that may also be a factor of Layton's having actively worked on polishing up his image while he was on city council.)

I believe that in attempting to dismiss Trudeau over issues like his youth (Harper was also young when he was a party leader) or his name or his hair (or his gender? It should not be an insult to be referred to by a woman's name, and yet it's used that way) the Conservative party actually further entrenches Trudeau's support. People like Trudeau because he inspires optimism... to attack him in such cynical terms and see him respond with further positivity re-inforces what people like about him. 

The Conservatives would do better to campaign on how they make Canada better, on their vision for a brighter future rather than continue to go back and argue about why the Liberals did terrible things before or why the NDP did terrible things before... sure, people say that negative politics works. But only for a while, and only when there is no viable positive option.... with Jack Layton gone, that's Trudeau.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> *The first question was obviously to take his looks out of the equation which is why I followed up by asking what policies and new ideas does he bring to the table.*
> 
> Well thus far I have not seen you mention any.
> 
> I have never one referred to his hair or about his looks aside from the fact that they play well to a certain demographic of the public. As for his name and personality they are indeed substantive non-policy attributes but they have been discussed plenty in the past have they not?
> 
> *And the nature of the discussion can change on a dime, I thought I was simply asking a question that would take the discussion down a more substantive path.*


I believe that's exactly the path I predicted the discussion would take.... beejacon

As for your middle paragraph.... you are not the only Trudeau-hater here, and since when do we only discuss things just once and never again on this thread?


----------



## iMouse

Harpoon also tries to control the dialogue.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Actually no.
> 
> What they did, was against the rules. It was indeed, and in and out scheme, pure and simple. The conservatives got caught doing it (they weren't the only ones yes) but 'that's literally all it was', well yes. It was against the rules, and they finally pleaded guilty to it, though quietly before xmas.
> 
> And that is merely the beginning of things. As we all know.


No it wasn't. There's not a damn thing wrong with what the CPC did, it was to the letter of the law. No one plead guilty either -- the charges were dropped by EC. Those were local ads. They only ran locally, and they clearly named the riding that paid for them in the ad. EC disallowed them anyway, dishonestly claiming they were national ads.

Unlike you, I actually do know EXACTLY how this all went down, and I'm fully aware of what the actual regulations were -- they were followed to the letter. There is still an ongoing lawsuit by the party against EC over their malfeasance in this issue.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> No it wasn't. There's not a damn thing wrong with what the CPC did, it was to the letter of the law. No one plead guilty either -- the charges were dropped by EC. Those were local ads. They only ran locally, and they clearly named the riding that paid for them in the ad. EC disallowed them anyway, dishonestly claiming they were national ads.
> 
> Unlike you, I actually do know EXACTLY how this all went down, and I'm fully aware of what the actual regulations were -- they were followed to the letter. There is still an ongoing lawsuit by the party against EC over their malfeasance in this issue.


Conservative Party pleads guilty to campaign overspending, Liberals ask if Tories bought the election | The Vancouver Observer

Uh, no. They did a plea bargain, still pleaded guilty to 2 charges and got a 52k fine.

Hardly a innocent party here at all.

We're going to have to disagree, because the only ones I see defending the conservatives here, -are- conservatives themselves.

Not to mention the constant reports of more, and more problems with following rules regarding spending and finances.

Hardly the picture of an innocent party... All I ever hear is how it's either someone else's fault, or someone out to get them... :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

The Devil made them do it.

"Yeah!! That's the ticket." _- The Liar_


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> In short, optimism.
> 
> If you are looking at all three without looking specifically at policy, then what the have in common are positive politics. People are tired of cynical doom-and-gloom, of negative attacks, of campaigns that boil down to "Vote for me because the other guy is worse." People have made fun of Obama's hope/change thing, and granted, he hasn't lived up to his expectations, but that doesn't mean people do not want those expectations.
> 
> With Justin Trudeau specifically, he gives the impression that he genuinely loves Canada, moreso than many other leaders. (Jack Layton was another who gave this impression.) Certainly, if you compare Trudeau to Ignatief that's quite clear. While I am sure that many political leaders care about Canada, not all are successful in communicating their passion for this country. Trudeau is.
> 
> Trudeau, I think, also represents a return to values that many Canadians hold, where we have a both a thriving economy and a solid social net, where we are world peacekeepers, where we are progressive and a force for good in the world... call it a return to a golden era, which like most "back in the day" types of thinking probably shows a nostalgia for an era that did not really exist. But people would like to believe that it is still possible, and Trudeau's charisma does inspire that belief, regardless of any particular plan or policy.
> 
> In that, I think the fact that Trudeau comes across as friendly rather than polished is a plus. It creates a sense that he connects with people, and in turn inspires believability that he genuinely cares about people. This was one of the big problems with Ignatief... he came off as an irritated professor talking down to his students. No connection. (Jack Layton also gave a sense of genuinely connecting with people, but Layton had more polish in doing so.... that may also be a factor of Layton's having actively worked on polishing up his image while he was on city council.)
> 
> I believe that in attempting to dismiss Trudeau over issues like his youth (Harper was also young when he was a party leader) or his name or his hair (or his gender? It should not be an insult to be referred to by a woman's name, and yet it's used that way) the Conservative party actually further entrenches Trudeau's support. People like Trudeau because he inspires optimism... to attack him in such cynical terms and see him respond with further positivity re-inforces what people like about him.
> 
> The Conservatives would do better to campaign on how they make Canada better, on their vision for a brighter future rather than continue to go back and argue about why the Liberals did terrible things before or why the NDP did terrible things before... sure, people say that negative politics works. But only for a while, and only when there is no viable positive option.... with Jack Layton gone, that's Trudeau.


Is it fair to say that you may be imbuing him with traits he may or may not actually possess?

When I view Mr. Trudeau I tend to see him "favouring" his mother, therefore, I am not inclined to place much hope or faith in his attributes as a result.

I also favour to focus on policy/direction of a political party. I should also disagree with you regarding, Mr. Trudeau, he has much policy/direction already. As he is not stating he is changing the Liberal Party in any massive way. Therefore the existing Liberal policy is Mr. Trudeau's policy, I should think.

I do have to agree with you regarding the negativity the Conservatives. The other major flaw IMO of the Conservative's governing is they only govern for "their base."

Therefore IMO the Conservative style and legislative policy/direction is aimed at a small portion of the population and tuff nuggies for the majority of Canadians.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> No it wasn't. There's not a damn thing wrong with what the CPC did, it was to the letter of the law. No one plead guilty either -- the charges were dropped by EC. Those were local ads. They only ran locally, and they clearly named the riding that paid for them in the ad. EC disallowed them anyway, dishonestly claiming they were national ads.
> 
> Unlike you, I actually do know EXACTLY how this all went down, and I'm fully aware of what the actual regulations were -- they were followed to the letter. There is still an ongoing lawsuit by the party against EC over their malfeasance in this issue.


*The Conservative were dirty by their own guilty plea to a plea deal.

*Deny all you want. You are entitled to your own opinions *but you are not entitled to your own facts.*



Wikipedia said:


> The court case against Elections Canada is ongoing.[15] The Conservatives claimed to have won a victory when their case against Elections Canada returned a decision suggesting that the body had overstepped its mandate. However, this ruling was then overturned on appeal.[16]
> 
> The Conservatives sought leave to appeal that court ruling to the Supreme Court of Canada, which was rejected on May 4, 2011. No explanation was given, as is usual in such instances. The decision means that the Conservatives may not use local expenses as a means of reducing their 2006 election expenses.[17]
> 
> In 2010 and 2011, several former Conservatives came forward, saying they were punished for refusing to take part in the scheme. Inky Mark of Manitoba and Helena Guergis of Ontario both state they were approached in 2006 to take funds from the federal party and then return them. Both refused. They join similar claims made earlier by David Marler of Quebec, and Dave Mackenzie of Ontario, who was noted as also refusing the funds although he has not spoken publicly on the issue.[18]
> 
> On February 24, 2011, 4 senior Conservative Party members were charged in the In and Out Scandal under the Elections Canada Act with overspending over $1 million dollars in the 2006 election including allegations that Conservative election expense documents submitted to Elections Canada were "false or misleading" and attempted to fraudulently gain almost $1 million dollars in refunds from taxpayers. Senator Doug Finley, (the party's campaign director in 2006 and 2008, and the husband of Human Resources Development Minister Diane Finley), Senator Irving Gerstein, Michael Donison (former national party director) and Susan Kehoe (who has served as an interim party executive director) all face 3 months in jail, $1000 in fines or both.[19]
> 
> *On March 6 2012, charges were dropped as part of a plea deal which saw the Conservative Party plead guilty over the 'In and Out' scandal, agreeing to repay $230,198.00 for its role in the scheme*.[20]


In and Out scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conservatives agree to plea deal in “in-and-out” scandal - Need to know - Macleans.ca



MacLeans said:


> Charges against four senior members of the federal Conservatives, including two senators, were dropped on Thursday as part of a plea deal in the “in-and-out” election financing scandal. In exchange, the Conservative party and its fundraising arm have plead guilty to charges the party exceeded election spending limits and filed election records that didn’t include all of its expenses. The prosecutor and defence attorneys agreed the Conservative party and its fundraising arm would pay fines of $50,000 and $2,000, respectively, to settle the case. Senator Doug Finley, Senator Irving Gerstein, Michael Donison and Susan Kehoe had originally been charged under the Elections Act for their roles in a scheme to shift expenses between local campaigns and the national campaign during the 2006 election.


----------



## Sonal

BigDL said:


> Is it fair to say that you may be imbuing him with traits he may or may not actually possess?


Yes, I do think that's fair to say--the impression that he creates is almost certainly bigger than the reality... as has been the case for Obama, and hence, so much of the disappointment when it turns out that Obama is not some larger than life figure who will magically rescue the USA from all problems, but simply a person trying very hard to solve difficult problems.

Jack Layton escaped this transition from hopeful idealism to reality because he passed away at the pinnacle of his popularity. Would he have lived up to the hype? Most likely not, but we'll never know.



BigDL said:


> When I view Mr. Trudeau I tend to see him "favouring" his mother, therefore, I am not inclined to place much hope or faith in his attributes as a result.


I am a little bit younger than Justin Trudeau... as such, I missed out of most of the drama surrounding his parents. (I do remember Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister, but I was very young and that was near the end of his Prime Ministership.) Reading about it isn't quite the same as having been there as it all unfolded.... so I do think there's a generational issue at play here--I don't think most people under the age of 40 have much of an impression of Margaret Trudeau (I don't, and I was pretty politically astute for my age when I was 7  ) and so I think the last name recalls his father more than his mother... certainly for a younger generation.

For those over 40, it's harder to say... perhaps some have forgotten, or weren't paying much attention then? Not sure.



BigDL said:


> I also favour to focus on policy/direction of a political party. I should also disagree with you regarding, Mr. Trudeau, he has much policy/direction already. As he is not stating he is changing the Liberal Party in any massive way. Therefore the existing Liberal policy is Mr. Trudeau's policy, I should think.


True, but then, what is existing Liberal policy anymore? For a while, there was some shift to being more like the NDP and even some talk of a coalition. I don't think most Canadians want to go so far left, particularly when economic confidence is down. 

But perhaps this is a more accurate way of looking at that golden era nostalgia I wrote about.... that it's a nostalgia for the old Liberal party of true centrists, of being socially progressive and still fiscally responsible. Again, whether this era actually existed may be debatable, but it's what the party used to stand for. If Justin Trudeau is bringing that back, good on him.



BigDL said:


> I do have to agree with you regarding the negativity the Conservatives. The other major flaw IMO of the Conservative's governing is they only govern for "their base."
> 
> Therefore IMO the Conservative style and legislative policy/direction is aimed at a small portion of the population and tuff nuggies for the majority of Canadians.


The Conservatives have been blessed with a weakened Liberal Party with lackluster leaders, followed by years of minority governments where the worst of their policies had to be curbed in order to stay in power.... anecdotal only, but my husband, who tends to be politically more conservative than me, finds that his disappointment with Harper begins shortly after he captured a majority government. (Tuff nuggies indeed.) 

It's early yet, but I do think Canadians could stomach another Harper minority.... it's not my preferred outcome, but I think it's still likely. I like Justin Trudeau very much, but I also think there is a value in losing elections... that is, that most leaders need to go through a tempering process. I'm not sure, however, that the party will allow him to stay on if he loses, though if he gains a position as Leader of the Opposition, he has a shot.

Edit to Add: I'm stuck between thinking is time for Harper to get out of power, and thinking that Justin Trudeau will be a stronger leader for Canada if goes through some kind of a tempering....


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Yes, I do think that's fair to say--the impression that he creates is almost certainly bigger than the reality... as has been the case for Obama, and hence, so much of the disappointment when it turns out that Obama is not some larger than life figure who will magically rescue the USA from all problems, but simply a person trying very hard to solve difficult problems.
> 
> Jack Layton escaped this transition from hopeful idealism to reality because he passed away at the pinnacle of his popularity. Would he have lived up to the hype? Most likely not, but we'll never know.
> 
> 
> 
> I am a little bit younger than Justin Trudeau... as such, I missed out of most of the drama surrounding his parents. (I do remember Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister, but I was very young and that was near the end of his Prime Ministership.) Reading about it isn't quite the same as having been there as it all unfolded.... so I do think there's a generational issue at play here--I don't think most people under the age of 40 have much of an impression of Margaret Trudeau (I don't, and I was pretty politically astute for my age when I was 7  ) and so I think the last name recalls his father more than his mother... certainly for a younger generation.
> 
> For those over 40, it's harder to say... perhaps some have forgotten, or weren't paying much attention then? Not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> True, but then, what is existing Liberal policy anymore? For a while, there was some shift to being more like the NDP and even some talk of a coalition. I don't think most Canadians want to go so far left, particularly when economic confidence is down.
> 
> But perhaps this is a more accurate way of looking at that golden era nostalgia I wrote about.... that it's a nostalgia for the old Liberal party of true centrists, of being socially progressive and still fiscally responsible. Again, whether this era actually existed may be debatable, but it's what the party used to stand for. If Justin Trudeau is bringing that back, good on him.
> 
> 
> 
> The Conservatives have been blessed with a weakened Liberal Party with lackluster leaders, followed by years of minority governments where the worst of their policies had to be curbed in order to stay in power.... anecdotal only, but my husband, who tends to be politically more conservative than me, finds that his disappointment with Harper begins shortly after he captured a majority government. (Tuff nuggies indeed.)
> 
> *It's early yet, but I do think Canadians could stomach another Harper minority.... it's not my preferred outcome, but I think it's still likely. I like Justin Trudeau very much, but I also think there is a value in losing elections... that is, that most leaders need to go through a tempering process. I'm not sure, however, that the party will allow him to stay on if he loses, though if he gains a position as Leader of the Opposition, he has a shot.*
> 
> Edit to Add: I'm stuck between thinking is time for Harper to get out of power, and thinking that Justin Trudeau will be a stronger leader for Canada if goes through some kind of a tempering....


I think a Harper minority will be the likely result of the next election. Unless Trudeau loses his footing in a big way, I think that will be the worst result for him the NDP will get clobbered, and it will be a short, disastrous term for Harper.

Trudeau will get his turn at being in opposition, which has great advantages while the government of the day gasps it's last tired breath, and we're in for a rinse, and repeat.

All we can hope for, is less of the angry politic/policy we've seen from this new brand of conservatism. Canadians, as a majority, will never be a conservative country, at least not the sort of conservative Harper envisions.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I think a Harper minority will be the likely result of the next election. Unless Trudeau loses his footing in a big way, I think that will be the worst result for him the NDP will get clobbered, and it will be a short, disastrous term for Harper.
> 
> Trudeau will get his turn at being in opposition, which has great advantages while the government of the day gasps it's last tired breath, and we're in for a rinse, and repeat.
> 
> All we can hope for, is less of the angry politic/policy we've seen from this new brand of conservatism. Canadians, as a majority, will never be a conservative country, at least not the sort of conservative Harper envisions.


I'm leaning more Liberal minority at this point, but again, it's very early. As you say, it's probably a lot better for Trudeau to be Leader of the Opposition for a couple of years... but man, a couple more years of Harper? Even minority Harper? Ouch.

Of course, going from third to first is a big jump.... and Elizabeth May has been doing very well in her one lonely seat. I could see a few more Green Party members coming in. (Probably not enough to make a big difference to the winner though.)

Mulcair is no Jack Layton... the myth or the man. I don't seem him hanging on to the gains of the last election.


----------



## Sonal

Adding on to my earlier comments about Trudeau, Layton and Obama....

In all three cases, there is a sense of a larger vision for the country. This may not be something that any of them have articulated, but there is a sense that they have a larger dream for the country, which they will try as best they can to implement. If a person buys into that dream, they'll buy into the candidate. I think Obama did so well first-term because people were hungry for the big dream again, particularly after the fear and warmongering of the Bush years.

With Harper, I have no sense that he has some particular vision for Canada. He continues to run it, but there's no sense of him trying to build Canada into some bigger, brighter place.... at best, he gives an impression of keeping it from falling into further disarray, and at worst, he gives an impression of wanting to preserve his own power with no particular dream for that nation. 

It's like we've promoted some middle manager...


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> It's like we've promoted some middle manager...


Yeah, and some inexperienced kid riding on his father's fame will be our salvation as a PM? That won't fly when the votes are counted.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Yeah, and some inexperienced kid riding on his father's fame will be our salvation as a PM? That won't fly when the votes are counted.


It's early days yet, but the polls aren't favouring the middle manager.

As I detailed earlier... for many people, Justin Trudeau represents a vision for Canada that they like and want. You buy into the vision, and the candidate comes along with it.

Others might not like it, but I don't think they can defeat it unless they attempt to understand it.... writing Justin Trudeau off due to his age and parentage is short-sighted.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> It's early days yet, but the polls aren't favouring the middle manager.
> 
> As I detailed earlier... for many people, Justin Trudeau represents a vision for Canada that they like and want. You buy into the vision, and the candidate comes along with it.
> 
> Others might not like it, but I don't think they can defeat it unless they attempt to understand it.... *writing Justin Trudeau off due to his age and parentage is short-sighted.*


Yup. Regardless of whether you like him or not, it would be a real mistake to underestimate that 'it' factor.


----------



## bryanc

As our system gradually morphs into something more closely resembling the US's (a process that Harper is doing everything possible to accelerate), the PM is becoming more and more of a figurehead. So it's less and less about the candidate him/herself, as it is about the advisors/handlers/financiers/etc. associated with the candidate. We know what Team Harper stands for: big oil, deregulation, corporate welfare, and fleecing the taxpayers. It's less clear what Team Trudeau stands for, but it can't be worse.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> As our system gradually morphs into something more closely resembling the US's (a process that Harper is doing everything possible to accelerate), the PM is becoming more and more of a figurehead. So it's less and less about the candidate him/herself, as it is about the advisors/handlers/financiers/etc. associated with the candidate. We know what Team Harper stands for: big oil, deregulation, corporate welfare, and fleecing the taxpayers. It's less clear what Team Trudeau stands for, but it can't be worse.


In the past the Liberals differed from the Conservatives defined by the "In's and Out's" who was in power who is out of power.

This Conservative Government is signalling more symbols of a Republic, rather than a Westminster Parliamentary System, but then again the rise of the transfer of power to the "PMO system" started with Pierre Trudeau.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> In the past the Liberals differed from the Conservatives defined by the "In's and Out's" who was in power who is out of power.
> 
> This Conservative Government is signalling more symbols of a Republic, rather than a Westminster Parliamentary System, but then again the rise of the transfer of power to the "PMO system" started with Pierre Trudeau.


The Republic of Canada. Has a nice ring to it ................ along with an elected PM (not an appointed PM by the party in power), no more GG or Constitutional Monarchy (aka the Queen), an elected Senate .................. sounds good to me. :clap: :clap:


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> This Conservative Government is signalling more symbols of a Republic, rather than a Westminster Parliamentary System, but then again the rise of the transfer of power to the "PMO system" started with Pierre Trudeau.


And yet, allegiance to the parliamentary system is part of the Conservative constitution. Harper spoke at the British parliament, not the US congress. 

I don't think a republican system is on anyone's agenda in the CPC. It certainly has not come up at the conventions.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *First, a court did indeed find electoral 'fraud'*. It's just that the conservatives want us to believe they had nothing to do with it. Of course, much swamp land can be sold...  There are MPs being investigated for breaking the rules. The conservatives have shown a real disregard for rules when it comes to financing. Why would it be surprising if they broke a few more? The whole in and out scheme, they pretty much got away with it.
> 
> and two, once again, those two offences you describe are not just separate, but far far different in seriousness, just like the red light and murder. It's a silly comparison.
> 
> This is where your argument doesn't wash with me.
> 
> You would have been better off comparing running a red light to making an illegal left turn.
> 
> Certainly not implausible if you run reds by any means...



Wrong! Look it up. I provided you with a link that clearly defines what the in and out was judged to be. It was *not electoral fraud* it was* improper election spending*.

You can keep calling it electoral fraud until the cows come home it it doesn't make it so.

I told you before the first example I provided was extreme and it was just to indicate that just because you commit an offense of one kind does not make it more likely that you will commit an offense of another kind. Keep harping on it all you want, I have provided several other examples as well.

I'm done debating this issue with you.

Screature out.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> As our system gradually morphs into something more closely resembling the US's (a process that Harper is doing everything possible to accelerate), the PM is becoming more and more of a figurehead. So it's less and less about the candidate him/herself, as it is about the advisors/handlers/financiers/etc. associated with the candidate. We know what Team Harper stands for: big oil, deregulation, corporate welfare, and fleecing the taxpayers. *It's less clear what Team Trudeau stands for, but it can't be worse.*


Uhhmm yeah it could be much worse... double digit unemployment, an ever increasing structural deficit, an inflation rate in the double digits, gas prices higher even than they are now, longer waiting times for health care, the dollar at $0.50, etc., etc., etc.

Can't be worse indeed.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Uhhmm yeah it could be much worse... double digit unemployment, an ever increasing structural deficit, an inflation rate in the double digits, gas prices higher even than they are now, longer waiting times for health care, the dollar at $0.50, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Can't be worse indeed.


Is this a preview of an upcoming attack ad?


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Is this a preview of an upcoming attack ad?


Nope just a statement fact. We currently enjoy one of the best economies in the world so obviously things can be much worse.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Wrong! Look it up. I provided you with a link that clearly defines what the in and out was judged to be. It was *not electoral fraud* it was* improper election spending*.
> 
> You can keep calling it electoral fraud until the cows come home it it doesn't make it so.
> 
> I told you before the first example I provided was extreme and it was just to indicate that just because you commit an offense of one kind does not make it more likely that you will commit an offense of another kind. Keep harping on it all you want, I have provided several other examples as well.
> 
> I'm done debating this issue with you.
> 
> Screature out.


I did.

Robocalls: Federal judge confirms election fraud in 2011 vote | canada.com

And the judge used the phrase, 'electoral fraud'.

But of course the conservatives, are making this out like someone else did it 'to' them.

Which is ridiculous.

ANyway you try to frame this, the conservatives have been caught time and time again breaking the rules, and now we're seeing in progress, multiple investigations and who knows where this goes.

So it seems what you assert is wrong, based on what is actually happening.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I did.
> 
> Robocalls: Federal judge confirms election fraud in 2011 vote | canada.com
> 
> And the judge used the phrase, 'electoral fraud'.
> 
> But of course the conservatives, are making this out like someone else did it 'to' them.
> 
> Which is ridiculous.
> 
> ANyway you try to frame this, the conservatives have been caught time and time again breaking the rules, and now we're seeing in progress, multiple investigations and who knows where this goes.
> 
> So it seems what you assert is wrong, based on what is actually happening.


Most folks in power strive for Plausible Deniability, however this Government and the Conservative Party are building an actual record plausible culpability.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Nope just a statement fact. We currently enjoy one of the best economies in the world so obviously things can be much worse.


Nothing factual about it. Pure speculation.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This is a good article from the hill times.

The CONS have nowhere to duck when the investigative journalist community keeps finding gems like the receiver general cannot find proof of payment of the $90k! Fraudsters.

News | hilltimes.com


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This is a good article from the hill times.
> 
> The CONS have nowhere to duck when the investigative journalist community keeps finding gems like the receiver general cannot find proof of payment of the $90k! Fraudsters.
> 
> News | hilltimes.com


Well, the check was written but who is to say it was cashed. Still, the effort was made to repay the $90+k and that should count for something. Let's move on to the other ways our tax dollars are being wasted. Or, better still, let's all keep quiet and just work harder/longer to make more money so that we pay more taxes so that the waste is covered by our efforts??? Win-win for one and all ...................


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Nothing factual about it. Pure speculation.


It is a fact things could be worse.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> It is a fact things could be worse.


Considering that they ARE worse around the world, and that they WERE much worse under the previous government, saying that they COULD be worse absolutely is a statement of fact.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This is a good article from the hill times.
> 
> The CONS have nowhere to duck when the investigative journalist community keeps finding gems *like the receiver general cannot find proof of payment of the $90k!* Fraudsters.
> 
> News | hilltimes.com


 What a lame statement, did you read the reasons why...



> The Hill Times contacted the Office of the Receiver General of Canada to confirm Sen. Duffy’s repayment, but the Public Works division was unable to confirm that it received a payment of $90,172.24 from the Senator. *The agency referred questions surrounding the Senator’s repayment back to the Senate.*
> 
> “*Although payments are made payable to the Receiver General for Canada, they are remitted directly to the appropriate institution, in this case the Senate and subsequently deposited by that institution into the Government’s bank account. The Receiver General is not in possession of this information,*” Public Works communications adviser Lucie Brosseau responded in an email to The Hill Times.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I did.
> 
> Robocalls: Federal judge confirms election fraud in 2011 vote | canada.com
> 
> And the judge used the phrase, 'electoral fraud'.
> 
> But of course the conservatives, are making this out like someone else did it 'to' them.
> 
> Which is ridiculous.
> 
> ANyway you try to frame this, the conservatives have been caught time and time again breaking the rules, and now we're seeing in progress, multiple investigations and who knows where this goes.
> 
> So it seems what you assert is wrong, based on what is actually happening.


Again you are conflating issues, robocalls has nothing to do with financing and in and out. Your claim was that the in and out was electoral fraud it was not.

Also there is no proof that the robocalls were done by the CPC and no MP has been indicated. 



> In reaching this conclusion, I make no finding that the Conservative Party of Canada or any CPC candidates or RMG and RackNine Inc., were directly involved in any campaign to mislead voters,” he ruled.


So no once again sir you are wrong even despite your best efforts to make 1+1=3.


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> What a lame statement, did you read the reasons why...


Yes, and they don't hold water either.

Just how many departments can deposit cheques payable to the Receiver General of Canada, and thus avoid any record appearing on the Receiver's books?

"That's just the way it's done."

BS, it does not have to be done that way.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> Yes, and they don't hold water either.
> 
> Just how many departments can deposit cheques payable to the Receiver General of Canada, and thus avoid any record appearing on the Receiver's books?
> 
> "That's just the way it's done."
> 
> BS, it does not have to be done that way.


Well first of all my comments were not to you but seeing as you are poking your nose out from your hole, it may not have to be but it is the way it is so the information is not available from the Receiver General. 

It is available from the Senate but they refused to give it to the media and rightly so.

The RCMP however will be able to access it to conduct their investigation and that is what is appropriate.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> It is a fact things could be worse.


Of course. Things can always be better and things can always be worse.

What I was responding to was you alluding to the fact that things will be worse on JT's watch. You were fear mongering like an attack ad.

If I misinterpreted your intent then I apologize in advance.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Considering that they ARE worse around the world, and that they WERE much worse under the previous government, saying that they COULD be worse absolutely is a statement of fact.


Right on comrade. 

Those budget surpluses were an evil socialist, commie plot. King Harpo has pledged to use every resource to stamp them out and I am sure we can count on him doing everything he can to assure they do not show their ugly head on his watch.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Of course. Things can always be better and things can always be worse.
> 
> What I was responding to was you alluding to *the fact that things will be worse on JT's watch.* You were fear mongering like an attack ad.
> 
> If I misinterpreted your intent then I apologize in advance.


No I did not, I was replying to bryanc who was saying that things *couldn't be worse* under JT and I said yes they* could* and listed some possibilities. I never stated that they *would *be like that under JT. How could I possibly know that.



bryanc said:


> As our system gradually morphs into something more closely resembling the US's (a process that Harper is doing everything possible to accelerate), the PM is becoming more and more of a figurehead. So it's less and less about the candidate him/herself, as it is about the advisors/handlers/financiers/etc. associated with the candidate. We know what Team Harper stands for: big oil, deregulation, corporate welfare, and fleecing the taxpayers. It's less clear what Team Trudeau stands for, but *it can't be worse*.





screature said:


> Uhhmm yeah* it could be* much worse... double digit unemployment, an ever increasing structural deficit, an inflation rate in the double digits, gas prices higher even than they are now, longer waiting times for health care, the dollar at $0.50, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Can't be worse indeed.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Right on comrade.
> 
> *Those budget surpluses* were an evil socialist, commie plot. King Harpo has pledged to use every resource to stamp them out and I am sure we can count on him doing everything he can to assure they do not show their ugly head on his watch.


Said it before and will say again, governments should not run surpluses they should run balanced budgets. If a government runs a surplus it is ripping off taxpayers.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> How could I possibly know that.


You couldn't. 

In fact, it could be much better. Perhaps the massive addiction to easy credit will be replaced by real wealth in the future. Perhaps a housing crash won't happen. Perhaps real jobs, not of the McWal variety will be created. Perhaps the crushing debt people are living with will subside. We could go on and on.

Are things really good here or is it the appearance of good? Seems like many experts have differing opinions.


----------



## bryanc

Indeed. We now seem to need to compare ourselves to sub-saharan Africa to make Canada look good. Rather than addressing the systemic problems in our society - the inequity, the abuse of power, the unsustainable exploitation of our environment and resources, the disenfranchisement, the democratic deficit, etc. - the Conservatives and their supporters would like us to consider how much worse it could be; look at those starving people in Africa!


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> You couldn't.
> 
> In fact, it could be much better. Perhaps the massive addiction to easy credit will be replaced by real wealth in the future. Perhaps a housing crash won't happen. Perhaps real jobs, not of the McWal variety will be created. Perhaps the crushing debt people are living with will subside. We could go on and on.
> 
> Are things really good here or is it the appearance of good? Seems like many experts have differing opinions.





bryanc said:


> Indeed. We now seem to need to compare ourselves to sub-saharan Africa to make Canada look good. Rather than addressing the systemic problems in our society - the inequity, the abuse of power, the unsustainable exploitation of our environment and resources, the disenfranchisement, the democratic deficit, etc. - the Conservatives and their supporters would like us to consider how much worse it could be; look at those starving people in Africa!


Mr. Jimmy: Sure it could but that was not my point now was it, bryanc who is supposed to be an educated man made a completely false statement and I simply corrected him.

bryanc: What a bunch of hogwash - we are among the top developed economies in the world, i.e. among our peers... pure clap trap.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Said it before and will say again, governments should not run surpluses they should run balanced budgets. If a government runs a surplus it is ripping off taxpayers.


Wrongo!

As long as the nation is in debt a surplus is absolutely essential to pay down the debt. Once significant progress is made there, interest payments will drop. At that time consideration can be given to reducing taxes, *but only if the government is responsible enough not to go into a deficit spending to finance the cuts. 
*
King Harpo knew all that, but still served up tax cuts for his corporate masters while skewering the taxpayer by increasing the debt.

The artificially low interest rates we currently enjoy are deceptive. The Banksters can and will raise them at will. We see signs that is about to happen Stateside. When that does happen Canadian Taxpayers will pay a very high price for Harpo's largesse towards his Corporate masters.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Mr. Jimmy: Sure it could *but that was not my point now was it*, bryanc *who is supposed to be an educated man* made a completely false statement *and I simply corrected him*.


You really should try a non condescending/ confrontational tone. You claim you wish to bring a level of decorum to ehMac. Best to start with yourself.


----------



## mrjimmy

eMacMan said:


> Wrongo!
> 
> As long as the nation is in debt a surplus is absolutely essential to pay down the debt. Once significant progress is made there, interest payments will drop. At that time consideration can be given to reducing taxes, *but only if the government is responsible enough not to go into a deficit spending to finance the cuts.
> *
> King Harpo knew all that, but still served up tax cuts for his corporate masters while skewering the taxpayer by increasing the debt.
> 
> The artificially low interest rates we currently enjoy are deceptive. The Banksters can and will raise them at will. We see signs that is about to happen Stateside. When that does happen Canadian Taxpayers will pay a very high price for Harpo's largesse towards his Corporate masters.


A rise in interest rates will be the only true determiner of the economic health of our Country, not Government spin. If housing goes south we are all in big trouble.


----------



## Sonal

I don't have an issue with taking on debt or deficit spending per se.... we are in a time of low interest rates, and while rates will go up eventually they are unlikely to go up suddenly. A government is not like a household in that in a government, there is a perpetual stream of income.

But the purpose of such spending is the issue. This is a good time to invest in infrastructure, and frankly most large municipalities are in need to infrastructure investment.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> You're still quoting the same article. The point it is trying to make is false.
> 
> Try it and get back us how that works out. You will not be allowed to donate more than $20 without it being registered, period. The very reason you see examples of MPs whose expenses are in dispute, is because Elections Canada absolutely can call for all receipts at any time, and they have to be there.


no, you're still not grasping what the loophole is. the question isn't whether you'd have to file paperwork when you make a donation below $200, the question is whether those donations get filed with elections canada - and the answer is they *don't*.

the article was a wikipedia page. admittedly not the be all and end all of truth, but it cites a few different articles. if you want another how about the globe & mail? where they directly quote an elections canada spokesman?

Loophole tears lid off donations - The Globe and Mail



> John Enright, a spokesman for Elections Canada, said the agency cannot keep track of donations below $200 because "we do not get the receipts" from the individual riding associations.


so how easy could someone circumvent the curent checks and balances? pretty easily :



> The Globe discovered the loophole while examining political donations made by Conservative MPs last year.
> 
> Conservative MP Lee Richardson did not show up as a donor to the Conservative Party on Elections Canada's databases.
> 
> But Mr. Richardson insisted he gave more than $200 to the Conservative Party last year. After checking his records, Mr. Richardson found that he gave cheques of less than $200 each to at least three riding associations, while making sure that he stayed below the maximum of $1,100.
> 
> While he obeyed the law, Mr. Richardson's case showed that someone can make multiple donations to a political party without coming up on anyone's radar screen, including at Elections Canada.


not to mention that cash donations of any kind should be banned. pretty easy to blast over the $1100 donation limit with a suitcase full of $20's.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Wrongo!
> 
> *As long as the nation is in debt a surplus is absolutely essential to pay down the debt.* Once significant progress is made there, interest payments will drop. At that time consideration can be given to reducing taxes, but only if the government is responsible enough not to go into a deficit spending to finance the cuts.
> 
> King Harpo knew all that, but still served up tax cuts for his corporate masters while skewering the taxpayer by increasing the debt.
> 
> The artificially low interest rates we currently enjoy are deceptive. The Banksters can and will raise them at will. We see signs that is about to happen Stateside. When that does happen Canadian Taxpayers will pay a very high price for Harpo's largesse towards his Corporate masters.


Not so, if debt repayment is a budgetary item then paying down the debt is part of a balanced budget. Duhh.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> You really should try a non condescending/ confrontational tone. You claim you wish to bring a level of decorum to ehMac. Best to start with yourself.


Oh you always bandy this about when it suits you, you are plenty condescending and confrontational yourself, bryanc is a big boy who can look after himself.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> Oh you always bandy this about when it suits you, you are plenty condescending and confrontational yourself, bryanc is a big boy who can look after himself.


Do you read the posts you write? Do you consider the tone or doesn't it matter. You are the one that goes on about civility and decorum aren't you?


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Do you read the posts you write? Do you consider the tone or doesn't it matter. You are the one that goes on about civility and decorum aren't you?


I tend to reply with the tone that the posts are posted with. bryanc comes on strong so I do the same in return and he is often the first to call out someone for a flagrant lack of logic... so he gets what he gives... like I said he is a big boy and I know he can take it.

It seems he hasn't taken offence so I don't know why you feel it is incumbent on you to be his defender and protector.


----------



## bryanc

I certainly don't take personal offence at this sort of thing. I do find the pedantic responses to my hyperbole amusing. Obviously my statement that things couldn't be worse with regard to the Harper government's pandering to corporations was not meant to be taken literally; like my previous use of 'jackbooted thugs' my intent is to draw attention to a disturbing trait of the current government by exaggeration. Screature, in particular, consistently takes issue with my caricatures of his favourite political party, but I worry about offending him about as much as he worries about offending me: not much (which is as it should be). 

I leave it to others to decide wether my hyperbole regarding OGL's faults or Screature's protestations that _it is technically possible_ for the government to do worse are more damning indictments of the current government's performance.


----------



## heavyall

Looks like making up lies about the Conservatives is going to start getting expensive for these activist groups:


Conservative MPs seeking $355K from voters who launched robocalls court case - Winnipeg Free Press



> Seven Conservative MPs are seeking a combined $355,907 from a group of voters who went to court and lost their bid to overturn election results in their federal ridings because of misleading robocalls.


Hopefully just the start of plenty more to come.


----------



## groovetube

oh you mean the court case that found there was electoral fraud?

ha ha yeah go get'im...


----------



## groovetube

Maxime Bernier caught driving with suspended licence | CTV News

ha ha ha he didn't know, his license was suspended.


----------



## bryanc

heavyall said:


> Hopefully just the start of plenty more to come.


Conservatives are pioneers and proficient practitioners of SLAPP suits.

{edit to add this quote (my bold) from the linked article: "This is an outrageous amount to request, given that *the judge found that voter suppression did occur and that the Conservative party database was the likely source* of the call lists," Garry Neil, executive director of the Council of Canadians, said in a statement.}


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I certainly don't take personal offence at this sort of thing. I do find the pedantic responses to my hyperbole amusing. *Obviously my statement that things couldn't be worse with regard to the Harper government's pandering to corporations was not meant to be taken literally*; like my previous use of 'jackbooted thugs' *my intent is to draw attention to a disturbing trait of the current government by exaggeration. Screature, in particular, consistently takes issue with my caricatures of his favourite political party, but I worry about offending him about as much as he worries about offending me: not much (which is as it should be).
> 
> I leave it to others to decide wether my hyperbole regarding OGL's faults or Screature's protestations that it is technically possible for the government to do worse are more damning indictments of the current government's performance.*


*

Not so obviously, you take exception when such hyperbole is stated regarding your "pet projects" to say otherwise is simply being disingenuous IMO, e.g. "The Religious Thread" and the blatant insults that you have hurled with great regularity.

Absolutely correct. 

It isn't a matter of technicality, it is a matter of fact, pure and simple, because we know that it could be worse because worse exists and has existed. But go ahead and keep trying to rationalize your irrational/illogical statement saying you didn't mean it to be taken seriously etc... It doesn't wash with me based on your very long track record in this regard.*


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Maxime Bernier caught driving with suspended licence | CTV News
> 
> ha ha ha he didn't know, his license was suspended.


Kind of makes me think of Tom Mulcair and not stopping at a security check point on Parliament Hill and running 5 stop signs and his protestations of "Don't you know who I am", except Bernier didn't go down that entitlement/I am above the law route... 

Funny isn't it how the left was so decidedly quiet on their GL's breaking the law and his sense of entitlement/I am above the law... Not to mention his cowardice not to show up for QP that day to "face the music" when it was all too painfully obvious that he was there.

Actually not so funny, just blatantly hypocritical and cowardly.

Based on your view that breaking one law means that you are more likely to break another we should keep an eye out for Tom Mulcair being involved in a hit and run. beejacon


----------



## groovetube

oh there you go again, comparing one smaller offence with a much much larger one.

Man that was quite the rant.


----------



## iMouse

Maybe Tom was claiming diplomatic immunity. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

ha ha the PMO outted again.

Trudeau Protest Was Manned By Tory Interns And Organized By PMO


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> ha ha the PMO outted again.
> 
> Trudeau Protest Was Manned By Tory Interns And Organized By PMO


Saw that this morning.... very classy.


----------



## chimo

groovetube said:


> ha ha the PMO outted again.
> 
> Trudeau Protest Was Manned By Tory Interns And Organized By PMO


What a petty thing to do.


----------



## mrjimmy

chimo said:


> What a petty thing to do.


I think you're being kind.


----------



## screature

This is exactly the problem with the current PMO... filled with a bunch of young hyper-partisans who think they are so clever when they haven't got a clue how things will look in the real world...

PMO needs a house cleaning and the sooner the better, or they are going to be the demise of this government.

CPC Caucus is starting to clue into this I just wonder how long it is going to take for Cabinet.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> This is exactly the problem with the current PMO... filled with a bunch of young hyper-partisans who think they are so clever when they haven't got a clue how things will look in the real world...
> 
> PMO needs a house cleaning and the sooner the better, or they are going to be the demise of this government.
> 
> CPC Caucus is starting to clue into this I just wonder how long it is going to take for Cabinet.


I agree but I also find it curious that you blame the young hyper-partisans and not the top brass themselves. Same thing seemed to happen with the senate scandal(s). For such a control freak PM, he certainly has been asleep at the switch when it comes to the controversial and illegal actions of his party/ government/


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> I agree but I also find it curious that you blame the young hyper-partisans and not the top brass themselves. Same thing seemed to happen with the senate scandal(s). For such a control freak PM, he certainly has been asleep at the switch when it comes to the controversial and illegal actions of his party/ government/


I blame the top brass for having them in the office in the first place but they do this kind of thing of their own accord (and BTW the PMO of the Libs did the same sort of thing against Jack Layton at a rally he held).

The trouble is that people think that everything that happens in the PMO is vetted personally by the PM. I can tell you with all certainty that this is not the case as there is just too much that goes on in the PMO and with the PM himself for this to happen. It doesn't even happen in individual back benchers offices where there is a fraction of the kind of communications, event organization, travel, etc. going on.

There are simply not enough hours in the day for the PM or chief of staff to personally vet every single thing that goes on in the PMO and this is regardless of any PM.

The main reason for this kind of thing going on rests mostly with Jenni Byrne, the director of political operations for the CPC, former director of issues management at the Prime Minister's Office and she was the national campaign manager during the PMs re-election bid in 2011.

She is the most hyper-partisan ruthless politico you can imagine and she is only 36 but she has 20 years of political experience and gets the desired results, i.e. election wins. That is why she is kept on and carbon copies of her are what they hire for PMO. 

So that is why you see these kinds of things coming out of PMO and it has been bloody effective for 8 years, but there seems to be public fatigue for this sort of thing now and I think that "the brass" as you put it, needs to clue into that change in the public wind or they are going to be in for a rocky time come 2015.


----------



## groovetube

I think it's a case of, the 'top brass' are well aware of what's going on, not necessarily directly involved in the logistics or activities, so they stay an arms length if anything goes wrong. It's very well known in government the sort of unprecedented top down control under Harper there is, so I don't know how they wouldn't have at least had some idea.

But yes, they have to 'get with it' that the public, is really tiring of a lot of things with the Harper government. The tried and true methods that has worked remarkably well for 7 plus years, is crashing quite hard now (and rightly so).

Will they know how to adjust... effectively?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think it's a case of, the 'top brass' are well aware of what's going on, not necessarily directly involved in the logistics or activities, so they stay an arms length if anything goes wrong. It's very well known in government the sort of unprecedented top down control under Harper there is, so I don't know how they wouldn't have at least had some idea.
> 
> But yes, they have to 'get with it' that the public, is really tiring of a lot of things with the Harper government. The tried and true methods that has worked remarkably well for 7 plus years, is crashing quite hard now (and rightly so).
> 
> *Will they know how to adjust... effectively?*


Time will tell... I think there is a major shake up coming over the summer, but if there isn't and they keep the status quo I think this government is done like dinner...

Maybe not in terms of holding on to power but they will at least be reduced to a minority once again... on the other hand there could be a seismic shift as Canadians tend to vote against things rather than for them and so the Libs could receive a majority under JT...

If that turns out to be the case god help us all...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Time will tell... I think there is a major shake up coming over the summer, but if there isn't and they keep the status quo I think this government is done like dinner...
> 
> Maybe not in terms of holding on to power but they will at least be reduced to a minority once again... on the other hand there could be a seismic shift as Canadians tend to vote against things rather than for them and so the Libs could receive a majority under JT...
> 
> If that might be the case god help us all...


I think majority power should be removed from our system.

Otherwise, we'll just end up with an overspending corrupt government again.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Maybe not in terms of holding on to power but they will at least be reduced to a minority once again... on the other hand there could be a seismic shift as Canadians tend to vote against things rather than for them and so the Libs could receive a majority under JT...


That coupled with the tendency to vote against parties after they've been in power a while... starts feeling like we're due for a change....


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *I think majority power should be removed from our system.*
> 
> Otherwise, we'll just end up with an overspending corrupt government again.


And how do you think this would ever come to pass into reality... No ruling Party is ever going to vote in favor of such legislation.

IMO it is a pipe dream and a bad one at that, because if it ever came to be all we would ever have is gridlock with nothing substantive ever being done. All it would do is entrench the status quo/the way things currently are for ever more.

No, IMO for better or worse, the political pendulum needs to swing freely.

And what instruments do you suggest that would be democratically legitimate to limit a vast majority of votes to be relegated to minority status?

In a democracy we have the right to vote in a majority despite the minority otherwise it isn't a democracy.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> That coupled with the tendency to vote against parties after they've been in power a while... starts feeling like we're due for a change....


Yep that is pretty much what I just said so I agree with you and that is what makes me so nervous because IMO the Libs under JT are a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> IMO the Libs under JT are a disaster waiting to happen.


This. In spades. Watch it happen.


----------



## groovetube

well we've watched quite a disaster under Harper occur, so these predictions I take with a grain of salt.

As far as minorities screature, if the carrot of absolute power were removed, and they were forced to work together, perhaps the focus would be on getting something done rather than voting each other down.

In any case, what we have, always results in a tired, overspending corrupt government, like we have now... again.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> This. In spades. Watch it happen.


Yup what we all need is a little Danielle Smith,


----------



## iMouse

The party with the most votes gets 45% of the seats. Next gets 35%. Next 20%. Any others get dick-all.

Done!!


----------



## CubaMark

*What the hell?*

*Sea King helicopter replacement hits a new snag*



> The decades-long project to replace Canada's 50-year-old Sea King helicopters has hit another snag, with the government now hiring an independent expert to study whether helicopter-maker Sikorsky is even capable of delivering a replacement as promised.
> 
> CBC News has learned that Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose has gone outside government and hired a consultant to study Sikorsky's work, and Canada's contract, to determine whether it's even possible for the U.S. helicopter giant to deliver the aircraft Canada ordered.





> The Defence Department's maritime helicopter project is the successor to the failed procurement of 50 EH-101 helicopters promised in 1992 by former prime minister Brian Mulroney. That program was cancelled in 1993 as part of an election promise made by Jean Chrétien.
> 
> For years, the program lay dormant as Canada's Sea King helicopters slowly gathered wear and tear.
> 
> In 2004, Sikorsky won a formal contract to provide 28 new CH-148 Cyclone helicopters to Canada.
> 
> The initial contract was worth $1.8 billion for aircraft, and an additional $3.2 billion for 20 years of maintenance and support.
> 
> Missed deadlines
> Delivery was to begin in November 2008, but it never did. The deadline slipped, and then slipped again.





> So far, only four helicopters have been delivered — all of them interim, and none of them meeting even those lower "interim" standards,...





> ...Public Works is refusing to allow the military to accept delivery of those four interim helicopters, because they allegedly aren't up to standards.


(CBC)


----------



## iMouse

"U.S. helicopter giant" tries to foist sub-standard product on Canadians?

Why am I not surprised?


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *What the hell?*
> 
> *Sea King helicopter replacement hits a new snag*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


What with the supposedly non-existent inflation of the past five years it is a very good bet that Sikorski is looking for a quick way out of this contract.

Course that would leave this government starting from scratch and given the Harpo regime history, I think it unlikely that Sikorski would end up paying any penalties. Those of course would be on the taxpayer dime.


----------



## CubaMark

*Apparently, the original contract (Liberals) plus modifications made to that contract (Conservatives) mean that Sikorsky will NOT be penalized a red cent... until they start delivering helicopters. If they deliver zero helicopters, there is no penalty (and Sikorsky is supposedly looking at a millions-per-aircraft loss if they do comply with the contract). So... *

*Sikorsky in clear over choppers*



> The issue is that there are two contracts. The government signed a $1.8-billion contract to buy the helicopters in 2004. But the late penalties will be drawn against a second contract in which Sikorsky is to provide in-service support for the helicopters during the course of their life cycle.





> The purchase of the helicopters began under Paul Martin’s Liberal government, but some critics say the current government exacerbated the problems.
> 
> In 2008, the government paid Sikorsky an extra $117 million to change the design of the choppers. That may give Sikorsky a case in which it could argue in court that the long delay was partly caused by Canada changing the plans, said University of British Columbia professor Michael Byers.
> 
> “This is what I believe created a situation where there is fault on both sides,” Byers, an expert in Canadian defence policy and international law, said.
> 
> “And when there is fault on both sides, it is extraordinarily difficult to apply (for) and recover a penalty.”





> Sikorsky itself may want to cancel the program because it has told investors it expects to lose millions of dollars on each helicopter. The company said late last year it planned to deliver eight helicopters in 2013.
> 
> But in year-end financial statements filed this year, Sikorsky’s parent company said the first fully functional helicopters could still be two years away.


(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Sonal

Ignoring the hyperbole, this is an interesting read... Justin Trudeau's appeal.
The Contender · TheWalrus.ca


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Ignoring the hyperbole, this is an interesting read... Justin Trudeau's appeal.
> The Contender · TheWalrus.ca


Equally all the reasons why he is unappealing to others.


----------



## Kosh

And the Americans wonder why nothing is manufactured in the USA. Can the USA create anything (even helicopters) without screwing it up or going way over budget? We try to buy jets from them, the jets are over budget and have delays. We try to buy helicopters and they can't deliver what we want.

I'm starting to wonder if Boeing could even deliver Super Hornets. I mean these are all big name aircraft manufacturers - Lockheed-Martin, Sikorsky, etc. Can Americans build anything? They want US jobs, but can they deliver on time and quality?

Hmmm... what's left, build it in Canada or get the Europeans or Chinese to build it?


----------



## CubaMark

It really is an interesting situation with American domestic capacity to produce anything military-industrial. Look at the space program... if it weren't for the Russians, how might U.S. (and Canadian, and any of the ISS partner nations') astronauts get into orbit?


----------



## iMouse

The U.S. has been sucking on someone else's teat for many years.

"Glorious, and free"? 

Right.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Where's the commander in chief?
Rail cars filled with flammable product dropping toward Bow River


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Where's the commander in chief?
> Rail cars filled with flammable product dropping toward Bow River


Bridges fail during floods. More relevant question is why did CP leave a train parked on a bridge, over the Bow River, during a flood?


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Bridges fail during floods. More relevant question is why did CP leave a train parked on a bridge, over the Bow River, during a flood?


That is a common practice. Officials in Medicine Hat asked the railroad to leave a train on the bridge during the flood there. Apparently the weight of the train helps to stabilize the bridge against the increased current.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And here comes the man with the white hat. Standby Alberta.


Federal leaders head to Stampede, show solidarity with flooded Calgarians - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## iMouse

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Where's the commander in chief?


Downriver, I hope.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Where's the commander in chief?
> Rail cars filled with flammable product dropping toward Bow River





iMouse said:


> Downriver, I hope.


Why do you want David Lloyd Johnston to be sickened by a toxic substance?


----------



## iMouse

I was referring to your C.I.C., as if you didn't know. tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> I was referring to your C.I.C., as if you didn't know. tptptptp


The Governor General is my Commander in Chief.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> I was referring to your C.I.C., as if you didn't know. tptptptp


Testy.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Where's the commander in chief?
> Rail cars filled with flammable product dropping toward Bow River


Probably at Rideau Hall.

But what does he have to do with "Rail cars filled with flammable product dropping toward Bow River"?


----------



## groovetube

well that didn't take long for things to head personal.

Anyway, I hope they solve this before a disaster happens and dumps all this into the river.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Probably at Rideau Hall.
> 
> But what does he have to do with "Rail cars filled with flammable product dropping toward Bow River"?


...on a bridge of federal jurisdiction.....wearing an armed services jacket. Yeah that's the guy or should we say "wimp".


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> ...on a bridge of federal jurisdiction.....wearing an armed services jacket. Yeah that's the guy or should we say "wimp".


Boy you really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You're right he's not a wimp. He's a wuss.

Anyway it looks like the toxins in question may not derail into the waterway.

Calgary bridge with derailed train shows signs of stabilizing - Calgary - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Respect your elders sonny.


----------



## groovetube

It happens when people get tired of the prime minister.

Right now everything is becoming Obama's fault (actually everything was when he first took office which was record time for a president it seems...)

Everything was Chretien's fault at one point.

But currently there's lots to criticize about Harper.

Don't worry, there'll plenty to rail about when Trudeau becomes prime minister


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

We await the return of the Dauphin who will come riding in on a white stallion.

Women will weaken at the knees. Men will put down their arms and share in a toast to the new regime.
Children will wonder "who is that masked man?"

For we are C A N A D I A N!


----------



## speckledmind

:d


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

*Well, at least Boeing's Chinooks have started to arrive...*

*Chinook choppers start to land*












> The government announced Thursday it has received the first of 15 Boeing CH-147F Chinook helicopters. The medium- to heavy-lift aircraft have been modified for use in Canada and will be used to transport equipment and personnel during operations.





> ...the program is on track to meet its $5-billion budget and the government expects to receive the full order over the next 12 months. Most importantly, the helicopters work.





> The Chinooks are based on a pre-existing design that was customized to increase flight distances and allow for flying in colder Arctic temperatures.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Sikorsky-built Cyclones are five years behind schedule and not a single working helicopter has been delivered. The Cyclone was a developmental design that had not been proven at the time the Paul Martin government bought it.





> the main question in regard to the Chinooks is what exactly they will be used for. A full $2.7 billion of the $5-billion price tag is for maintaining the helicopters for 20 years.
> 
> But with the mission in Afghanistan over, Perry said the government needs to figure out how its helicopter fleet will fit into its plans.


(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## BigDL

*Lies OGL tells us Make Government Smaller*

Well looky, looky who grew the Government employment and payroll according to the PBO.

Budget watchdog data shows bureaucracy grew under Harper - Politics - CBC News 












CBCNews said:


> The Conservative government has made it clear that curbing public service costs is a key part of its agenda as it heads into the second half of Stephen Harper's majority mandate.
> 
> But budget measures and ministerial musings about everything from public sector pensions to the collective bargaining process and even sick leave may obscure the bureaucracy sprawl under the Conservative watch.
> 
> New data published by the Parliamentary Budget Office has tracked annual civil service payroll numbers by job classification and by federal department, and both are illuminating.
> 
> The PBO spread sheets reveal the number of individuals on the federal payroll rose 14 per cent between the end of the 2005-06 fiscal year, when Harper's Conservatives came to office, and 2012.
> 
> Information services employees were up 15.3 per cent, administrative services rose 20 per cent, financial management staff jumped 35 per cent and welfare program employees were up 43 per cent, according to the PBO.


----------



## iMouse

Buying votes, one job at a time.

Where the Hell is Screech when I need him?


----------



## groovetube

B.C. man, woman charged in Canada Day bomb plot | CTV News

This is nuts, in Victoria. Never would have thought this was something that could happen that city.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Reverse course on CON's iPod tax. 

Border agency drops rule for iPod tax exemption - Politics - CBC News

Anyone know when the vacationers return from purga*TORY*?


----------



## Dr.G.

"We only need to look at what we are really doing in the world and at home and we'll know what it is to be Canadian." - Adrienne Clarkson


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> B.C. man, woman charged in Canada Day bomb plot | CTV News
> 
> This is nuts, in Victoria. Never would have thought this was something that could happen that city.


In some ways it looks like this pair were carefully led by the RCMP down the path of self radicalization. Hence the inert device that was totally under the Mounties control.


----------



## iMouse

Willing dupes, to support the need for 'expanded security services'.









CubaMark would like this one. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Reverse course on CON's iPod tax.
> 
> Border agency drops rule for iPod tax exemption - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Anyone know when the vacationers return from purga*TORY*?


The Conservative party has never supported the iPod tariff and denied that it would occur.

This was entirely the decision of the Canada Border Services Agency.


----------



## BigDL

How badly does an employer have to screw-up negotiations to have Diplomats go on strike?

Foreign service strike slowing down visa applications - Politics - CBC News



CBCNews said:


> The federal government and the union representing diplomats and immigration officers abroad have been locked in a contract negotiation battle for months. As part of escalating job action measures, diplomats at key visa application centres — including Beijing, Delhi, Sao Paolo and Mexico City — have withdrawn their services.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> How badly does an employer have to negotiate to have Diplomats on strike?
> 
> Foreign service strike slowing down visa applications - Politics - CBC News


They will strike simply by being offered what they are worth--that ought to do it!


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> Willing dupes, to support the need for 'expanded security services'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CubaMark would like this one. :lmao:


When I heard the headlines yesterday it sounded fishy. We'll have to wait for the rest of the story for sure.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> How badly does an employer have to screw-up negotiations to have Diplomats go on strike?
> 
> Foreign service strike slowing down visa applications - Politics - CBC News


Yow. Pretty badly it appears!


----------



## CubaMark

BigDL said:


> When I heard the headlines yesterday it sounded fishy. We'll have to wait for the rest of the story for sure.


A real odd one, this. Both were recovering drug addicts (he had apparently finished his methadone treatment and was "clean", cops allegedly found a methadone prescription in her name in the apartment). Nuttal has quite a lengthy record, while Kodony has practically zero online presence. Next court date on July 9th - we'll see what they dig up by that point.

But on the face of it, nothing about these couple and a terrorist plot makes any sense...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper and the jets -

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/07/20130703-154506.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> The Conservative party has never supported the iPod tariff and denied that it would occur.
> 
> This was entirely the decision of the Canada Border Services Agency.


Sure it was. Who re-wrote the legislation?
Another knee slapper. 

Welcome back.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sure it was. Who re-wrote the legislation?
> Another knee slapper.
> 
> Welcome back.


The legislation was not rewritten. Flaherty stated why the iPods were exempt from an import duty and the Canada Border Services Agency reflected that intention in the clarification document it issued.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> The legislation was not rewritten. Flaherty stated why the iPods were exempt from an import duty and the Canada Border Services Agency reflected that intention in the clarification document it issued.


And more on the confusion around the CON tax hikes and the iPod tax. 

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/07/03/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-harper-governments-ipod-tax/


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And more on the confusion around the CON tax hikes and the iPod tax.
> 
> The rise and fall(?) of the Harper government’s iPod tax - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


They are certainly not among the confused:



> There was never any question that an exemption existed to import iPods without paying a tariff.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sure it was. Who re-wrote the legislation?
> Another knee slapper.
> 
> Welcome back.


Com'on Skipper *OGL* never does anything bad, the un-civil servants are always to blame. A few here shall straighten us out, I sure.


----------



## CubaMark

*Prime Minister Harper prepares to shuffle his Cabinet*



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper is widely expected to shuffle his Cabinet this month and could bring in as many as eight new Cabinet ministers in an effort to breathe new life into his government, say Conservative sources and other media reports.





> CTV’s Question Period tweeted on June 23 that CTV Ottawa bureau chief Robert Fife says at “least eight Cabinet ministers will be punted out of the Cabinet in the upcoming shuffle.”





> here are nine current Conservative Cabinet ministers who are facing rumours of retirement, including: Finance Minister Jim Flaherty (Whitby-Oshawa, Ont.), Public Safety Minister Vic Toews (Provencher, Man.), Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz (Battlefords-Lloydminster, Sask.), Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver (Eglinton-Lawrence, Ont.), Environment Minister Peter Kent (Thornhill, Ont.), Justice Minister Rob Nicholson (Niagara Falls, Ont.), Government Whip Gordon O’Connor (Carleton-Mississippi Mills, Ont.), Minister of State for Foreign Affairs and Americas and Consular Services Diane Ablonczy (Calgary-Nose Hill), and National Defence Minister Peter MacKay (Central Nova, N.S.).












(The Hill Times)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh oh. When CON news orgs like CTV start reporting unease with the Harper govt.....

*Sharpen the pitch forks!*

CTV poll: 30 per cent of Canadians think Harper gov't should be re-elected | CTV News


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh oh. When CON news orgs like CTV start reporting unease with the Harper govt.....
> 
> Sharpen the pitch forks!
> 
> CTV poll: 30 per cent of Canadians think Harper gov't should be re-elected | CTV News


Having paid Ispos Reid to conduct the survey, CTV would have reported the results, regardless of what they were.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh oh. When CON news orgs like CTV start reporting unease with the Harper govt.....
> 
> *Sharpen the pitch forks!*
> 
> CTV poll: 30 per cent of Canadians think Harper gov't should be re-elected | CTV News


 :love2: 

Will be interesting how *OGL* sees this trend playing out. Will *OGL* whistle past the graveyard or will *OGL* see the need to change?

At any rate the opposition has been very effective pointing out *OGL* warts. :clap:

2 years until the next scheduled election tick, tick, tick :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

Proposition: How can they shuffle The Harper Government without shuffling Harper?

Discuss.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> :love2:
> 
> Will be interesting how *OGL* sees this trend playing out. Will *OGL* whistle past the graveyard or will *OGL* see the need to change?
> 
> At any rate the opposition has been very effective pointing out *OGL* warts. :clap:
> 
> 2 years until the next scheduled election tick, tick, tick :lmao:



Anything Ispos Reid puts out for CTV would be put to shame by the information gathering machine of the Conservatives. Whatever the common man is chortling about today has already been digested and acted on by the Harper government months ago.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> :love2:
> 
> Will be interesting how *OGL* sees this trend playing out. Will *OGL* whistle past the graveyard or will *OGL* see the need to change?
> 
> At any rate the opposition has been very effective pointing out *OGL* warts. :clap:
> 
> 2 years until the next scheduled election tick, tick, tick :lmao:


this government is becoming very tired, it has been used to bending the facts, and getting away with things because of the total apathy of Canadians in general.

Nothing wakes up an electorate if even just enough to unseat a party like getting peed off at the misdeeds of the government and the long list of broken promises and the cry for "CHANGE!".

You can plan for that all you like, but once that takes hold, you're done for.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So long! Sharpen the pitch forks!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So long! Sharpen the pitch forks!


Who are the people you want pitch-forked here?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sure it was. Who re-wrote the legislation?
> Another knee slapper.
> 
> Welcome back.





Macfury said:


> The legislation was not rewritten. Flaherty stated why the iPods were exempt from an import duty and the Canada Border Services Agency reflected that intention in the clarification document it issued.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And more on the confusion around the CON tax hikes and the iPod tax.
> 
> The rise and fall(?) of the Harper government’s iPod tax - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


There is no iPod tax and there never was... it was a misinterpretation of the legislation on the part of some dolts at CBSA and junior professors at a couple of universities. 

Obviously the CBSA dolts got some schooling by the Finance Department to set them straight. 

The government has been consistent all along that the changes do not affect iPod/iPod like devices...

But as per usual the anti-current-government forces took the ball and ran with it to stir up chite and spread FUD.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So long! Sharpen the pitch forks!





Macfury said:


> Who are the people you want pitch-forked here?


Marjory Lebreton and Diane Ablonczy.

Don't have a clue what skippy is on about.

Lebreton as the Leader of the Senate is going no where soon unless it is of her own choosing and as for Ablonczy a Cabinet shuffle is in the works so where she may end up is anyone's guess, she may even choose not to run in 2015.

As for pitch forks, they only exist in skippy's mind.


----------



## eMacMan

> Just a month ago Alberta MP Brent Rathgeber quit the Conservative caucus and accused the party of losing its way after seven years in power.
> 
> "I barely recognize ourselves, and worse I fear that we have morphed into what we once mocked," Rathgeber wrote on his personal blog.


Certainly applies south of the border as well, where the NSA revelations and BOs desire to charge the whistle blower with treason, make some of the Soviet/East German antics dwindle in comparison.


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> Certainly applies south of the border as well, where the NSA revelations and BOs desire to charge the whistle blower with treason, make some of the Soviet/East German antics dwindle in comparison.


this probably belongs in the American Political thread, but yes, I agree; starting immediately after his election, Obama compromised with the fascists in the GOP so fast I think many people got cricks in their necks trying to watch him reverse direction.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> this probably belongs in the American Political thread, but yes, I agree; starting immediately after his election, Obama compromised with the fascists in the GOP so fast I think many people got cricks in their necks trying to watch him reverse direction.


There was no reason to "compromise" with the GOP after such a decisive victory by the Democrats. Obama was corrupted by the power available to him. In fact he ran with that ball and took it further than any president before him.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> this probably belongs in the American Political thread, but yes, I agree; starting immediately after his election, Obama compromised with the fascists in the GOP so fast I think many people got cricks in their necks trying to watch him reverse direction.


Pretty difficult not to with a totally inept GOP dominated congress.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More like foundling party. 

http://o.canada.com/2013/07/04/conservatives-now-billing-themselves-as-canadas-founding-party/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

How can I put this gently - the excrement has hit the fan!

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...st-files-show/article13012003/?service=mobile


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More like foundling party.
> 
> Conservatives now billing themselves as ‘Canada’s founding party’ | canada.com


They aren't the 'founding party'. The 'new conservative' party came into being just in the last decade. They're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How can I put this gently - the excrement has hit the fan!
> 
> Conservatives planned to repay Duffy from party funds, but balked at cost, files show - The Globe and Mail


Man this whole thing really really stinks to high heaven.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More like foundling party.
> 
> Conservatives now billing themselves as ‘Canada’s founding party’ | canada.com





groovetube said:


> They aren't the 'founding party'. The 'new conservative' party came into being just in the last decade. They're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How can I put this gently - the excrement has hit the fan!
> 
> Conservatives planned to repay Duffy from party funds, but balked at cost, files show - The Globe and Mail





groovetube said:


> Man this whole thing really really stinks to high heaven.



It's true if *OGL* says it's true no facts required. *OGL* will tell you in no uncertain term that's just Lickspittle lefty journalist playing silly bugger with facts.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> It's true if *OGL* says it's true no facts required. *OGL* will tell you in no uncertain term that's just Lickspittle lefty journalist playing silly bugger with facts.


Just spent some time going through the docs. Sorry about the note form thoughts but gotta go.

Stunning stuff in here, especially the third link which gives us quite a bit of detail regarding the PMO/CPC dealings and coverup.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBMzBwYWtTVTZ6QmM/edit?pli=1

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBSkp5OGNjVWZ6WVE/edit?pli=1

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBVDB5WGdEdVBUSTQ/edit?pli=1

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBMjFMYmNhZm1CbHc/edit?pli=1

-The RCMP believe the agreement between Wright and the Puffster constitutes an offence of frauds on the government.

-The RCMP have detected a pattern of filling fraudulent expense claims and are now going to audit him back to 2008 when Harper appointed him to the Senate.


-Nigel Wright has not been personally interviewed - he speaks through his two lawyers.
-It is very clear that Nigel Wright and the Puffster were not friends.
-It would appear the CONS have a $30k threashold for abusing contributor and taxpayer funds anything on top of that comes out the wealthy set's pockets
-Wright, Benjamin Perrin (Harper’s former special adviser and legal counsel Benjamin Perrin how convenient he is no longer in the PMO), Senator Gerstein, David van Hemmen, executive assistant to Harper’s chief of staff, and Chris Woodcock, director of issues management in the Prime Minister’s Office, all knew about the deal.
-Perrin is on record stating there was no 90k deal

-The Puffster was represented by one of the finest labour lawyers in the country - Janice Payne
-Payne received the 90k bank draft from Wright on the Puffster's behalf.
-No written agreement between the Puffster and Wright
-Wright had 2 conditions for the Puffster - payback money immediately, and stop talking to media.
-Wright's lawyers say Harper did not know about deal.
-Wright does not excpect the money back

This is political entertainment at it's best.

Vive le Canada!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Just spent some time going through the docs. Sorry about the note form thoughts but gotta go.
> 
> Stunning stuff in here, especially the third link which gives us quite a bit of detail regarding the PMO/CPC dealings and coverup.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBMzBwYWtTVTZ6QmM/edit?pli=1
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBSkp5OGNjVWZ6WVE/edit?pli=1
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBVDB5WGdEdVBUSTQ/edit?pli=1
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BysQFUFbskwBMjFMYmNhZm1CbHc/edit?pli=1
> 
> -The RCMP believe the agreement between Wright and the Puffster constitutes an offence of frauds on the government.
> 
> -The RCMP have detected a pattern of filling fraudulent expense claims and are now going to audit him back to 2008 when Harper appointed him to the Senate.
> 
> 
> -Nigel Wright has not been personally interviewed - he speaks through his two lawyers.
> -It is very clear that Nigel Wright and the Puffster were not friends.
> -It would appear the CONS have a $30k threashold for abusing contributor and taxpayer funds anything on top of that comes out the wealthy set's pockets
> -Wright, Benjamin Perrin (Harper’s former special adviser and legal counsel Benjamin Perrin how convenient he is no longer in the PMO), Senator Gerstein, David van Hemmen, executive assistant to Harper’s chief of staff, and Chris Woodcock, director of issues management in the Prime Minister’s Office, all knew about the deal.
> -Perrin is on record stating there was no 90k deal
> 
> -The Puffster was represented by one of the finest labour lawyers in the country - Janice Payne
> -Payne received the 90k bank draft from Wright on the Puffster's behalf.
> -No written agreement between the Puffster and Wright
> -Wright had 2 conditions for the Puffster - payback money immediately, and stop talking to media.
> -Wright's lawyers say Harper did not know about deal.
> -Wright does not excpect the money back
> 
> This is political entertainment at it's best.
> 
> Vive le Canada!


Jimbo do really think that we are not capable of reading this stuff first hand without your incessant nothing value added posts?

Do you have an original thought to contribute or do you just simply regurgitate everything that you read?

Do you see yourself as "Gawker lite" because seriously that is how you present yourself.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Jimbo do really think that we are not capable of reading this stuff first hand without your incessant nothing value added posts?
> 
> Do you have an original thought to contribute or do you just simply regurgitate everything that you read?
> 
> Do you see yourself as "Gawker lite" because seriously that is how you present yourself.


I agree, we don't want this to become another GHG thread. But to be fair, what Skippy posted was a summary of information from other sources that seem relevant to the discussion here, and he did say he was rushed, so I think it's fair to give him a couple of days to get back to the discussion with his opinions on what this means.


----------



## BigDL

Does harassing posters, about information that, say another may vehemently disagree with, further the conversation or is it an attempt to derail discussion? 

What would you call, a pattern of such behaviour, when demonstrated by an individual on an ongoing basis?


----------



## iMouse

Bullying?


----------



## groovetube

controlling the message. A tactic. Ignore it.

hoooo boy. CTV News | News Video - Top National News Headlines - News Videos

Remember all the heated denials and outrage when it was dared to be suggested that Harper's personal legal guy was involved? Turns out so far, they know he knew about it.

I bet much more will come as they open this criminal investigation.


----------



## SINC

Or not.


----------



## groovetube

SOunds like you're really hoping so.

But by all indications, there's far more that will be learned. There was all kinds of hand wavings, 'much ado about nothing', blah blah when this first broke, and now look at what we've learned so far!

And this investigation, has just gotten started.

And anyone who works in government knows only too well the unprecedented top down micromanagement form this prime minister, to believe Harper had absolutely no knowledge of this is simply ludicrous.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Does harassing posters, about information that, say another may vehemently disagree with, further the conversation or is it an attempt to derail discussion? *
> 
> *What would you call, a pattern of such behaviour, when demonstrated by an individual on an ongoing basis?*





iMouse said:


> Bullying?


If either of you think what I said constitutes harassment, I think you need to read some of your own posts to me and others here and then decide whether or not your posts above constitute, well shall we say, "wanting to have your cake and eat it too".


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> SOunds like you're really hoping so.
> 
> But by all indications, there's far more that will be learned. There was all kinds of hand wavings, 'much ado about nothing', blah blah when this first broke, and now look at what we've learned so far!
> 
> And this investigation, has just gotten started.
> 
> *And anyone who works in government knows only too well the unprecedented top down micromanagement form this prime minister, to believe Harper had absolutely no knowledge of this is simply ludicrous.*


Actually not. 

I was speaking to my sister yesterday who shall we say is on the "opposite side of the political fence" from myself and abhors the current administration. She works as an editor (officer) at HRSDC with over 30 years of service who is far more knowledgeable, informed and experienced than everyone here on the internal workings of government (myself included) and even she said that she is about 85% sure that Harper didn't know about the payment to Duffy.

As I have said before there is just far too much that goes on for the PM to know about everything that happens even within the PMO, it is quite simply impossible, and she said as much with the knowledge of the deep and multilayered operations that go on within the vested halls of government.

She told me that even DM's don't know everything that go on within their departments and DM's know more than the Ministers as they run the departments, the Ministers are just the "political figure heads".

So while the ignorant "media informed only" general public likes to think that the PM could not have possibly not known, those who are really are in know think it is very likely indeed that he did not know.

In the court of media driven public opinion everyone is guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Actually not.
> 
> I was speaking to my sister yesterday who shall we say is on the "opposite side of the political fence" from myself and abhors the current administration. She works as an editor (officer) at HRSDC with over 30 years of service who is far more knowledgeable, informed and experienced than everyone here on the internal workings of government (myself included) and even she said that she is about 85% sure that Harper didn't know about the payment to Duffy.
> 
> As I have said before there is just far too much that goes on for the PM to know about everything that happens even within the PMO, it is quite simply impossible, and she said as much with the knowledge of the deep and multilayered operations that go on within the vested halls of government.
> 
> She told me that even DM's don't know everything that go on within their departments and DM's know more than the Ministers as they run the departments, the Ministers are just the "political figure heads".
> 
> So while the ignorant "media informed only" general public likes to think that the PM could not have possibly not known, those who are really are in know think it is very likely indeed that he did not know.
> 
> In the court of media driven public opinion everyone is guilty until proven innocent.


Other people have secret invisible friends on Parliament Hill who send them secret texts about the Prime Minister. Your sister doesn't hold a candle to secret invisible friends who are right there in the thick of it and really know pretty much what is going on actually.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Other people have secret invisible friends on Parliament Hill who send them secret texts about the Prime Minister. Your sister doesn't hold a candle to secret invisible friends who are right there in the thick of it and really know pretty much what is going on actually.


Hmmm...

The Canadian Press vs. Someone's Sister.

Seems fair enough.


----------



## BigDL

Please mrJ, please don't have facts introduced into the discussion.

How will their favourite team ever stand a chance to clear up this...misunderstanding...yeah...yeah that's a good one. Misunderstanding!


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> The Canadian Press vs. Someone's Sister.
> 
> Seems fair enough.


That and the fact that anyone who claims to work in or around the hill and denies the super well known top down micromanagement doesn't know what they're talking about.

Everyone you speak to who works up there knows this.

Everyone. Not anyone's friends, sister, or uncle. Everyone.

And yes, anyone in the media is also, quite hip to this as well.

It's really unbelievable that anyone, would try to deny this. Unless you're a 'hyper-partisan...


----------



## Sonal

It's not so different from the business world.... the CEO doesn't always know every detail of what each underling is doing. Sometimes said underlings screw up royally and publicly.

That said, when let's call 'em middle management, is creating major PR problems for the company, the CEO's job is to crack down fast and fix it before everything gets further out of control (moving through the various channels of management) and carry on. 

Granted, government is a particularly public kind of a business, but then at the same time, it seems reasonable to think that at least senior staff have some experience in reining in others.

That such things keep happening, says to me that either:
1) Harper has a lousy ability to appoint, hire, direct and manage people. I totally understand that the Prime Minister can't personally attend to everything (that would be a waste of the PM's time) but in that case, he needs to get better people in place and fast. 
2) Harper wants these things to happen and shields himself in plausible deniability by blaming others
3) Some odd combination of the above.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> It's not so different from the business world.... the CEO doesn't always know every detail of what each underling is doing. Sometimes said underlings screw up royally and publicly.
> 
> That said, when let's call 'em middle management, is creating major PR problems for the company, the CEO's job is to crack down fast and fix it before everything gets further out of control (moving through the various channels of management) and carry on.
> 
> Granted, government is a particularly public kind of a business, but then at the same time, it seems reasonable to think that at least senior staff have some experience in reining in others.
> 
> That such things keep happening, says to me that either:
> 1) Harper has a lousy ability to appoint, hire, direct and manage people. I totally understand that the Prime Minister can't personally attend to everything (that would be a waste of the PM's time) but in that case, he needs to get better people in place and fast.
> 2) Harper wants these things to happen and shields himself in plausible deniability by blaming others
> 3) Some odd combination of the above.


PMs present, and past, have sown that they are lousy at appointing the right people. One doesn't need to look very far.

But this PM in particular is well know for his top down control. Everyone, knows this.

But there's no doubt he has shielded himself in plausible deniability. I just find it interesting how quick the same people who wanted all the liberals in jail over the sponsorship scandal are at buying this plausible deniability.

Amazing that.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> It's not so different from the business world.... the CEO doesn't always know every detail of what each underling is doing. Sometimes said underlings screw up royally and publicly.



Sadly this CEO...er PM when Leader of the Opposition held the then Prime Minister as being accountable for everything under his watch. Why would he now claim ignorance of everything?



Sonal said:


> That said, when let's call 'em middle management, is creating major PR problems for the company, the CEO's job is to crack down fast and fix it before everything gets further out of control (moving through the various channels of management) and carry on.


 The member's of his caucus affectionally refer to him as "The Boss." I suspect this is not a term of ironic comic relief. 



Sonal said:


> Granted, government is a particularly public kind of a business, but then at the same time, it seems reasonable to think that at least senior staff have some experience in reining in others.
> 
> That such things keep happening, says to me that either:
> 1) Harper has a lousy ability to appoint, hire, direct and manage people. I totally understand that the Prime Minister can't personally attend to everything (that would be a waste of the PM's time) but in that case, he needs to get better people in place and fast.
> 2) Harper wants these things to happen and shields himself in plausible deniability by blaming others
> 3) Some odd combination of the above.


Given the record of the people appointed to important positions by this Prime Minister and those who have been reported on by the media, to have disgraced themselves, give a person to pause and contemplate his choices. I suspect your conjecture(s) are somewhere near the truth.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> *Sadly this CEO...er PM when Leader of the Opposition held the then Prime Minister as being accountable for everything under his watch. Why would he now claim ignorance of everything?*
> 
> The member's of his caucus affectionally refer to him as "The Boss." I suspect this is not a term of ironic comic relief.
> 
> Given the record of the people appointed to important positions by this Prime Minister and those who have been reported on by the media, to have disgraced themselves, give a person to pause and contemplate his choices. I suspect your conjecture(s) are somewhere near the truth.


yep. SUddenly, since it's the conservatives, it's all the underlings fault.

Let's see how that excuse holds up when the liberals have their turn. :lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That and the fact that anyone who claims to work in or around the hill and denies the super well known top down micromanagement doesn't know what they're talking about.
> 
> Everyone you speak to who works up there knows this.
> 
> Everyone. Not anyone's friends, sister, or uncle. Everyone.
> 
> And yes, anyone in the media is also, quite hip to this as well.
> 
> It's really unbelievable that anyone, would try to deny this. Unless you're a 'hyper-partisan...


Interesting that you seem to think you know *everyone* who works on the Hill and in government.  But it still doesn't mean that the top always knows everything that is going on... it is quite simply impossible.

And yep I would take my sister's 30 years of experience working at very high levels of government over yours or any journalists any day of the week. 

Top down is how all governments are run, it is quite funny that you are not "hip" to that fact, actually quite astounding.

Anyone other than a hyper-partisan knows this and to think otherwise is just plain, naive, ill informed or just outright spin.


----------



## eMacMan

Been awhile since I talked about FATCA. In the mean time the Finance Minister has been negotiating with the US Treasury Dept thugs and has hammered out an agreement. Canadians are not to know the details until it is signed and presumably bypasses parliament altogether.

The only slight benefit to Canada from all of this is supposed reciprocity. That is the US will pass on to Canada similar information on Canadians holding US accounts as it demands Canada provide on Americans holding Canadian accounts.

As I predicted the reciprocity part of the agreement is DOA. The American Banksters, realizing how much this would cost them, killed Obushma's attempt to sneak it by Congress as part of an omnibus bill.

With the big guns at their back the US congress is also taking very strong action to assure that reciprocity does not happen.

This letter by House Finance Services Committee member, Congressman Bill Posy of Florida to the Treasury Secretary should remove all doubt about Congress approving the reciprocity provisions.

Hopefully this will be enough to get the Con government to stand up to the IRS and just say NO to FATCA!

I was unable to get the entire letter to post, but this is a reasonably accurate summary.
Congressman Calls for FATCA Moratorium


----------



## iMouse

> I beg of you, Monsieur, watch yourself. Be on guard. This place is full of vultures, vultures everywhere.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Interesting that you seem to think you know *everyone* who works on the Hill and in government.  But it still doesn't mean that the top always knows everything that is going on... it is quite simply impossible.
> 
> And yep I would take my sister's 30 years of experience working at very high levels of government over yours or any journalists any day of the week.
> 
> Top down is how all governments are run, it is quite funny that you are not "hip" to that fact, actually quite astounding.
> 
> Anyone other than a hyper-partisan knows this and to think otherwise is just plain, naive, ill informed or just outright spin.


Oh come on. It's well known that this PM is more top down than others before him. It's practically legendary in Ottawa. There's books written on it, with info provided by conservatives themselves (though they'll all be portrayed as 'sour grapes', conveniently...)

The problem is this is coming back to bite now that these scandals are occurring. COnservative supporters can't accept this fact that Harper is a control freak. 

I heard many times how people wanted to see the liberal PM and MPs in jail over the sponsorship. And you want me to buy this malarky about Harper not knowing anything about it?

I think 'plausible deniability' about calls it.


----------



## BigDL

Seems all will be better when the Conservatives are back on the opposition benches. They and their supporters will be happier with the ability to scream bloody blue murder about the actions of the next government.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Oh come on. It's well known that this PM is more top down than others before him. It's practically *legendary* in Ottawa. *There's books written on it*, with info provided by conservatives themselves (though they'll all be portrayed as 'sour grapes', conveniently...)
> 
> The problem is this is coming back to bite now that these scandals are occurring. COnservative supporters can't accept this fact that Harper is a control freak.
> 
> I heard many times how people wanted to see the liberal PM and MPs in jail over the sponsorship. And you want me to buy this malarky about Harper not knowing anything about it?
> 
> I think 'plausible deniability' about calls it.


Yep that is about right:

legend |ˈlejənd|
noun
1 a traditional story sometimes *popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated* : the legend of King Arthur | according to legend he banished all the snakes from Ireland.

Guess who those books were written by...? Hyper-partisan liberals like Lawrence Martin... forgive me if I don't give much credence to his diatribes and those of his ilk.

They all have their own agendas.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Yep that is about right:
> 
> legend |ˈlejənd|
> noun
> 1 a traditional story sometimes *popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated* : the legend of King Arthur | according to legend he banished all the snakes from Ireland.
> 
> Guess who those books were written by...? Hyper-partisan liberals like Lawrence Martin... forgive me if I don't give much credence to his diatribes and those of his ilk.
> 
> They all have their own agendas.


Well I could predict that coming. Except it isn't just Martin making this up unfortunately...

you can try to discount one source, and continue to discount others, one by one.

But it's a little like arguing the sky isn't blue. This is the first place I've seen anyone try to say it isn't true.

Even hyper partisan conservatives I know in Ottawa will admit Harper is a control freak. 

WHich makes the idea, that he didn't know anything at all, ludicrous. I bet that's why you're trying hard to discount something so incredibly obvious to, oh I donno, everyone else? :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

screature said:


> *We* all have *our* own agendas.


Slight alterations required.

Come back on Tuesday, after 4.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Seems all will be better when the Conservatives are back on the opposition benches. They and their supporters will be happier with the ability to scream bloody blue murder about the actions of the next government.


Indeed. When there's a scandal involving the liberals, they can go back to screaming to put them all in jail because there's no possible way they couldn't have know and been involved.

Only to backpedal furiously when their party is in power. beejacon


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> you can try to discount one source, and continue to discount others, one by one.
> 
> But it's a little like arguing the sky isn't blue. This is the first place I've seen anyone try to say it isn't true.
> 
> Even hyper partisan conservatives I know in Ottawa will admit *Harper is a control freak*.
> 
> WHich makes the idea, that he didn't know anything at all, ludicrous. I bet that's why you're trying hard to discount something so incredibly obvious to, oh I donno, everyone else? :lmao:


Every PM was and will be a control freak, but it is impossible for them to know everything that is going on even within the PMO.

I have already pointed out to you someone (who happens to be my sister and a card carrying member of the NDP) who works at a high level in the government who because of her experience believes that it is 85% likely Harper didn't know.

It seems you are completely unwilling to accept the fact that NO not everyone knows or believes that Harper knew, even those who abhor his government. You are simply belying your own hyper anti-Harper bias and that is fine but don't try and pretend that you know everyone in Ottawa believes that Harper knew because you quite simply don't and it isn't true.

It is pure conjecture and speculation on your part until it is proven... well expect in the court of public opinion (on which you sit) in which everyone is guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## screature

iMouse said:


> Slight alterations required.
> 
> Come back on Tuesday, after 4.


Please do not do that, it is incredibly rude and unsanitary to stick your words into other people's mouths.

You want to make a point then make it but not like that.


----------



## iMouse

I see *OGL* is continuing his good-will tour about his fair land.

Next stop Lac-Megantic, Que.

Bringing aid and comfort to his loyal subjects, since 2006.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Every PM was and will be a control freak, but it is impossible for them to know everything that is going on even within the PMO.
> 
> I have already pointed out to you someone (who happens to be my sister and a card carrying member of the NDP) who works at a high level in the government who because of her experience believes that it is 85% likely Harper didn't know.
> 
> It seems you are completely unwilling to accept the fact that NO not everyone knows or believes that Harper knew, even those who abhor his government. You are simply belying your own hyper anti-Harper bias and that is fine but don't try and pretend that you know everyone in Ottawa believes that Harper knew because you quite simply don't and it isn't true.
> 
> It is pure conjecture and speculation on your part until it is proven... well expect in the court of public opinion (on which you sit) in which everyone is guilty until proven innocent.


85% that he didn't know?

Well, here's what we do know.

We know that he's a control freak. And no, more so than past PMs. Well established even amongst conservatives. You'd have to live in a hole not to know this. I don't know how much clearer that can be.

Evidence now, contradict what Harper earlier said that no one in PMO knew about this. Now, we find out that despite the denials, even Harper's own legal adviser, knew about it.

And this is just the beginning.

85% based on what we know is ludicrous. The best you could possibly say and I'm being really generous, is 50/50.

Can I say for sure Harper knew about it? Well Sonal put it best. 'Plausible deniability'.

Even in the case of the liberals and adscam, I think some in government knew quite well what was going on. 'Plausible deniability' worked for them too. However people aren't stupid. And I predict that they won't be in this case either.

Let's see where this goes as we find out more.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> 85% that he didn't know?
> 
> Well, here's what we do know.
> 
> We know that he's a control freak. And no, more so than past PMs. Well established even amongst conservatives. You'd have to live in a hole not to know this. I don't know how much clearer that can be.
> 
> Evidence now, contradict what Harper earlier said that no one in PMO knew about this. Now, we find out that despite the denials, even Harper's own legal adviser, knew about it.
> 
> And this is just the beginning.
> 
> 85% based on what we know is ludicrous. The best you could possibly say and I'm being really generous, is 50/50.
> 
> Can I say for sure Harper knew about it? Well Sonal put it best. 'Plausible deniability'.
> 
> Even in the case of the liberals and adscam, I think some in government knew quite well what was going on. 'Plausible deniability' worked for them too. However people aren't stupid. And I predict that they won't be in this case either.
> 
> Let's see where this goes as we find out more.


Plausible deniability? Except with these Conservatives and under *OGL's*  control, we have seen each misdeed after misstep, finally come to light, then after much wailing and denial of any wrong doing, proven by a independent third party to be dirty as hell. 

I say with *OGL*  it's becoming plausible culpability for doing wrong.


----------



## groovetube

the whole it's a hyper-partisan staffer's fault schtick is beginning to get old.

People are smarter than this. It worked for a while but people aren't buying it anymore. And nor should they.

I didn't buy it from the liberals, why would I the cons???


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> 85% that he didn't know?
> 
> Well, here's what we do know.
> 
> We know that he's a control freak. And no, more so than past PMs. Well established even amongst conservatives. You'd have to live in a hole not to know this. I don't know how much clearer that can be.
> 
> Evidence now, contradict what Harper earlier said that no one in PMO knew about this. Now, we find out that despite the denials, even Harper's own legal adviser, knew about it.
> 
> And this is just the beginning.
> 
> *85% based on what we know is ludicrous. The best you could possibly say and I'm being really generous, is 50/50.*
> 
> Can I say for sure Harper knew about it? Well Sonal put it best. 'Plausible deniability'.
> 
> Even in the case of the liberals and adscam, I think some in government knew quite well what was going on. 'Plausible deniability' worked for them too. However people aren't stupid. And I predict that they won't be in this case either.
> 
> Let's see where this goes as we find out more.


Show me where he ever said that, you can't because he didn't, now you're resorting to making things up.

Yeah because you *know*. 

Your mind is clearly made up, good thing you aren't an investigator. Guilty until proven innocent. That is how the Inquisition was conducted, thank goodness we live in a society where the legal system has evolved beyond that if not some members of the society.

EDIT:

I now see the report by Fife that you are talking about that Harper said that nothing had been communicated to his office on the Wright/Duffy deal, which coould equally suggest that Wright lied to Harper and it is only when Wright is under investigation by the RCMP that he through his lawyers tells the truth. 

Apparently, Wright did tell others in the PMO. Wright when asked by the PM " Does anyone else in my office know about this?, " Wright says no, so Harper says what he did in QP... call it "plausible deniability" or as the law says, "innocent until proven guilty", you just don't know, (despite your incessant claims of *everyone knows*) nor does any one else until all the facts are known.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Show me where he ever said that, you can't because he didn't, now you're resorting to making things up.
> 
> Yeah because you *know*.
> 
> Your mind is clearly made up, good thing you aren't an investigator. Guilty until proven innocent. That is how the Inquistion was conducted, thank goodness we live in a society where the legal system has evolved beyond that if not some members of the society.


To be fair, these things are often written in the blogs on rabble.ca, and can be mistaken for news.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Show me where he ever said that, you can't because he didn't, now you're resorting to making things up.
> 
> Yeah because you *know*.


SHow me where he said that??? He said in parliament!!! :lmao:


screature said:


> Your mind is clearly made up, good thing you aren't an investigator. Guilty until proven innocent. That is how the Inquisition was conducted, thank goodness we live in a society where the legal system has evolved beyond that if not some members of the society.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> I now see the report by Fife that you are talking about that Harper said that nothing had been communicated to his office on the Wright/Duffy deal, which coould equally suggest that Wright lied to Harper and it is only when Wright is under investigation by the RCMP that he through his lawyers tells the truth.
> 
> Apparently, Wright did tell others in the PMO. Wright when asked by the PM " Does anyone else in my office know about this?, " Wright says no, so Harper says what he did in QP... call it "plausible deniability" or as the law says, "innocent until proven guilty", you just don't know, (despite your incessant claims of *everyone knows*) nor does any one else until all the facts are known.


As I said, 50/50, and that's generous. No one wanted to give the liberal party the benefit of the doubt regarding the sponsorship scandal, why on earth would expect me to give these guys the benefit of the doubt after the number of misdeeds and lying I have seen these last 7 years?

Given what we know so far all from credible sources, I have a hard time believing that Harper knew absolutely nothing of what was going on. I don't have a slam dunk that he knew, but this reeeeally stinks to high heaven, and the investigation will continue, and there's Wallin next...


----------



## Macfury

I think that with Chretien, you just knew that the old rascal was guilty of anything thrown his way. Harper, on the other hand, has shown some outstanding moral qualifications as leader of the country.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Harper, on the other hand, has shown some *outstanding moral qualifications* as leader of the country.


[citation needed]


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> ...Harper, on the other hand, has shown some outstanding moral qualifications as leader of the country.


:clap::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::clap:

My side's already beginning to ache, and that one will have me laughing for at least the rest of the week. Danke!


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> :clap::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::clap:
> 
> My sides already beginning to ache, and that one will have me laughing for at least the rest of the week. Danke!


Wow. The days entertainment I suppose!


----------



## mrjimmy

eMacMan said:


> :clap::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::clap:
> 
> My side's already beginning to ache, and that one will have me laughing for at least the rest of the week. Danke!


Come on, he wears a sweater, pets a kitten, has sportscaster hair and plays the piano, what else do you need?


----------



## i-rui

bryanc said:


> [citation needed]


lol


----------



## Macfury

I thought that would get a few laughs!


----------



## iMouse

Maybe we should change the acronym to *OML*??


----------



## eMacMan

I see Vic Toews has announced his retirement, effective tomorrow.:clap: Is July 9, 2013 the day he qualifies for maximum pension benefits???

With Toews ten toes up I wonder who the Harpolites will use to divert our attention when some particularly devious/nasty piece of legislation is being rammed through parliament.


----------



## groovetube

Will Corporal Greg Horton take down Stephen Harper? | Toronto Star

Some will immediately dismiss, simply because well it's the star.

But it's a good read, and asks some very good questions. And, it suggests some things conservative supporters likely can't begin to imagine.


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## iMouse

What's Harpoon doing with Rob Ford's body and Donald Trumps head??


----------



## mrjimmy

Now I always take polls with a grain of salt but...

Jeffrey Simpson: The mood has turned against the Conservatives - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

It seems to be a consistent thing that's gained real traction. It's a tired, corrupt government headed for it's knees. That didn't take long... 

And CM that cartoon is hinting what everyone seems to know, except for a few I guess. :lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It seems to be a consistent thing that's gained real traction. It's a tired, corrupt government headed for it's knees. *That didn't take long... *
> 
> And CM that cartoon is hinting what *everyone seems to know, except for a few I guess*. :lmao:


Actually by the time of the next election Harper will be the 6th longest serving PM in Canadian history and it ain't over until it's over.

Political cartoonists are really known for their impartiality, that is what sells.


----------



## groovetube

6th longest? You don't say


----------



## kps

eMacMan said:


> I see Vic Toews has announced his retirement, effective tomorrow.:clap: Is July 9, 2013 the day he qualifies for maximum pension benefits???
> 
> With Toews ten toes up I wonder who the Harpolites will use to divert our attention when some particularly devious/nasty piece of legislation is being rammed through parliament.


Potential candidate:


----------



## screature

kps said:


> Potential candidate:


Could be... she speaks very well, can think on her feet (unlike Toews) and knows the portfolio inside out.

It would be interesting to have a woman as Public Safety Minister which is often thought of as a "man's position"by some.


----------



## bryanc

Sorry; being largely TV-less, I have no idea who this person is. Can someone give me a name?


----------



## kps

bryanc said:


> Sorry; being largely TV-less, I have no idea who this person is. Can someone give me a name?


Candice Bergen - MP for Portage-Lisgar


----------



## eMacMan

She does not seem the type to only open her mouth when changing feet. This is a Toews skill that Harpo on occasion found to be a very useful diversion, so I don't see her as a viable replacement.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> She does not seem the type to only open her mouth when changing feet. This is a Toews skill that Harpo on occasion found to be a very useful diversion, so I don't see her as a viable replacement.


She is currently PS to the Ministry so is actually a very viable replacement.


----------



## heavyall

Bergen is the obvious choice. She's already doing much of the job, was the lead MP on the abolishment of the gun registry, is very knowledgeable and well-spoken.

Cue the media making up a fake scandal as to why she reverted to her maiden name....


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> Bergen is the obvious choice. She's already doing much of the job, was the lead MP on the abolishment of the gun registry, is very knowledgeable and well-spoken.
> 
> Cue the media making up a fake scandal as to why she reverted to her maiden name....


I say, bring back Bev Oda. :clap::clap::clap: Anyone who can spend that much money on a glass of OJ has my vote.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I say, bring back Bev Oda. :clap::clap::clap: Anyone who can spend that much money on a glass of OJ has my vote.


:lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> :lmao:


Laugh if you will, gt, but you helped pay for it. She gets the chutzpah vote from one and all.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I say, bring back Bev Oda. :clap::clap::clap: Anyone who can spend that much money on a glass of OJ has my vote.





groovetube said:


> :lmao:





Dr.G. said:


> Laugh if you will, gt, but you helped pay for it. She gets the chutzpah vote from one and all.





heavyall said:


> Bergen is the obvious choice. She's already doing much of the job, was the lead MP on the abolishment of the gun registry, is very knowledgeable and well-spoken.
> 
> Cue the media making up a fake scandal as to why she reverted to her maiden name....


Sorry I don't get the humor.

Have either of you actually watched/listened to her speak in the House?

She is very good, much better than many other MPs and Ministers with many more years in the House.

I really wonder why you are being so patronizing because as a person and as an MP she doesn't deserve it at all. Perhaps it is just because she is a conservative? Do either of you really know anything about her?

Is it because Bergen is a woman?

I really don't get the joke.

Just to add to heavyall, the media has been quite quiet on that front, she reverted to her maiden name because she got divorced. I don't think that is supposed to be a scandal in this day and age even among conservatives and those on the left alike.


----------



## groovetube

in all honesty I know very little about her. But some of the antics by other conservatives begs for some jokes.

I certainly am not joking because, she's a woman. I'd prefer to see more of them in politics.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Laugh if you will, gt, but you helped pay for it. She gets the chutzpah vote from one and all.


Please leave poor Bev alone. Clearly a woman with a medical disability in the nature of an addiction. Her addiction led her, to her undoing. More to pitied, than to condemn, really.


----------



## BigDL

*Managerial Incompetence or it's Deliberate Policy*

2.3 Billion allocated Dollars not spent by National Defence. Is the Government sandbagging money or are they just incompetent implementing policy and acquiring new equipment?



CBCNews said:


> New figures from the parliamentary budget office show National Defence hasn't spent billions of dollars set aside for it during the last budget year in a continuing trend that's being described as deficit slashing by stealth.
> 
> The data on quarterly expenditures in the federal government show that by the end of the last fiscal year in March, the department had spent $2.3 billion less than what was allocated by Parliament.
> 
> That's more than 10 per cent of the annual defence appropriation, which also happens to be the single biggest discretionary line item in the federal budget.
> 
> The figures for previous years show that $9.6 billion has gone unspent in defence since the 2006-07 budget year — a trend defence officials have blamed on late equipment projects and an inefficient bureaucracy.
> 
> A former commander of the army says this calls for an explanation from the Harper government.
> 
> "I am not aware of any other Western armed forces, who are all going through budget reductions, underspending by such a dramatic amount over such a relatively long period of time," said retired lieutenant-general Andrew Leslie.
> 
> He said the spending pattern is either a matter of managerial incompetence or a deliberate policy.
> 
> "If it is deliberate, the government of Canada needs to explain why."


National defence unable to spend billions in allocated funds - Politics - CBC News

Good luck getting any answers from Petey or OGL. All we will receive from that crew is "you think we're bad you should see the other guys.

Competent managers of the economy, it is to laugh! 

Poor tired old government, out of idea, out of policy, just waiting for them to be put out of office, tick, tick, tick.


----------



## CubaMark

*ahem* just want to remind folks of the earlier discussion about the Right and the Left and their respective support for our troops....


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> I don't think that is supposed to be a scandal in this day and age even among conservatives and those on the left alike.


You'd think so, but that didn't stop opposition a-holes from trying to make Toews' divorce into a public scandal.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *ahem* just want to remind folks of the earlier discussion about the Right and the Left and their respective support for our troops....


Yep I know and I will get back to you CM but that was in a different thread...

All I can say is sorry for the delay. Not to mention my rebuttal, it was out of line and over the top... one of the reasons for my recent apology.

I still believe in the essence of what I said, minus all the hyperbole (needless and stupid :lmao.

I have been taking the time to do some additional reading and consideration since my first knee *jerk* post.

Please allow me the time to formulate my response... I have a few other fish to fry even though I have replied to other posts before the "pending" one I made to you... that one in particular I am not in the least bit proud of and so I apologize to you CM for my previous post in the other thread and for my delay in getting back to you.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> You'd think so, but that didn't stop opposition a-holes from trying to make Toews' divorce into a public scandal.


Well there -was-... that little thing with the babysitter... :lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> You'd think so, but that didn't stop opposition a-holes from trying to make Toews' divorce into a public scandal.


I do believe Victor had a ..... in that.


----------



## MacDoc

Canada waking up to Harper perhaps...










he's lucky there is no grounds for an election....


----------



## groovetube

Even I'm surprised by such a strong showing by the liberals. Things can only really get worse for Harper here on, if the e onomy improves gradually be can't use people's fear of changing a strong, stable, bunch of thrives to a new set.


----------



## CubaMark

screature: no worries - that post wasn't directed at you specifically - I just thought in context of the billions in unspent defence dollars, it was relevant to mention here


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's a little more evidence about how tawdry and cheap the Harper govt. can be:

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/n...ubbed-garneau/article13209719/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Here's a little more evidence about how tawdry and cheap the Harper govt. can be:
> 
> Documents show ministers


Cheap? There should have been no event at all. They spent too much on this.


----------



## mrjimmy

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Here's a little more evidence about how tawdry and cheap the Harper govt. can be:
> 
> Documents show ministers


Tawdry and cheap is being kind.



> Two senior ministers, however, said museum and space agency staff fumbled the ball and that their own ministerial offices played no role.
> 
> But internal emails, guest lists and proposals show that the offices of James Moore, Canadian Heritage minister, and Christian Paradis, industry minister, were closely involved in the planning for more than two months.


I see they are also employing the 'I didn't do it' strategy that tends up blowing up in their face. Take some responsibility you partisan hacks...


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> Tawdry and cheap is being kind.
> 
> 
> 
> I see they are also employing the 'I didn't do it' strategy that tends up blowing up in their face. Take some responsibility you partisan hacks...


This group haven't any integrity. These two ministers and *OGL* disgrace the positions they hold. 

This Government continues to build their plausible culpability for wrong doing.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Tawdry and cheap is being kind.
> 
> 
> 
> I see they are also employing the 'I didn't do it' strategy that tends up blowing up in their face. Take some responsibility you partisan hacks...


Standard Harper con excuses. A playbook used over and over again.

I think people are starting to get wise to this.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I see they are also employing the 'I didn't do it' strategy that tends up blowing up in their face.


Eek! Someone forgot to invite the astronaut!! The people of Canada will never stand for this!!!


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Standard Harper con excuses. A playbook used over and over again.
> 
> I think people are starting to get wise to this.


Absolutely. They reek of a Government in decline.


----------



## BigDL

It's all going to be alright on Monday when *OGL* announces a new Cabinet so the EtchSketch will have turned over and shaken or the Reset Button will have been pushed or what ever puts the conservative base at ease. 

The Base may quietly go about chewing their cud or whatever passes for quite contentment as the time passes this summer. Thoughts of scandal can soon be forgotten until all the burgers have been flipped and the air cools to a chill.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> Eek! Someone forgot to invite the astronaut!! The people of Canada will never stand for this!!!


You really are out of touch with the common Man, aren't you?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> It's all going to be alright on Monday...


Agreed.


----------



## mrjimmy

BigDL said:


> It's all going to be alright on Monday when *OGL* announces a new Cabinet so the EtchSketch will have turned over and shaken or the Reset Button will have been pushed or what ever puts the conservative base at ease.
> 
> The Base may quietly go about chewing their cud or whatever passes for quite contentment as the time passes this summer. Thoughts of scandal can soon be forgotten until all the burgers have been flipped and the air cools to a chill.


We shall see BigDL. Even their base comes up for air every now and again. They'll simply be putting lipstick on a pig.


----------



## groovetube

Offices of two Tory ministers closely involved in planning Canadarm event that snubbed Liberal MP Marc Garneau | National Post

Once again, it's the 'staffers who fumbled the ball'.

riiiiight.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> You really are out of touch with the common Man, aren't you?


The Common Man will have forgotten about it before the next episode of _The Amazing Race_.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Once again, it's the 'staffers who fumbled the ball'.
> 
> riiiiight.


Except there are emails that show otherwise.

Master criminals they ain't! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Except there are emails that show otherwise.
> 
> Master criminals they ain't! :lmao:


they simply count on the voter's not being smart enough to verify any claims, or just very forgetful.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> they simply count on the voter's not being smart enough to verify any claims, or just very forgetful.


These Cons govern and concentrate on three things:

(1) the base;

(2) the base;

(3) the base;

hence very true your comment of "they simply count on the voter's not being smart enough to verify any claims, or just very forgetful." :clap: :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## iMouse

"And the blind shall lead them." _- somebody_


----------



## kps

iMouse said:


> "And the blind shall lead them." _- somebody_


 Since we're getting a tad religious ....

Here's that_ somebody_

•


----------



## screature

^^^ :lmao:

Yup, that is about right.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Yup, that is about right.


I'm surprised you think Trudeau is going to lead the Liberals out of the desert; I'm thinking they've still got a few years of wandering to do.


----------



## groovetube

I'm a little amused at this as well actually.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I'm surprised you think Trudeau is going to lead the Liberals out of the desert; I'm thinking they've still got a few years of wandering to do.





groovetube said:


> I'm a little amused at this as well actually.


Well if you know the story it took Moses 40 years to lead the Israelites out of the desert and he not was allowed to enter the promised land himself... like I said.... sounds about right.


----------



## groovetube

Well I'd say it's probably more what you -hope- is right 

But the depictions of Trudeau as some sort of messiah is pretty amusing to say the least. But I suppose a similar cartoon could be drawn of any party leader who is looking as though they will become the next crowned king of the land who promises a big change from the years of 'darkness'.

King Harpo comes to mind, who was to lead us out of the land of overspending, big governments, scandals, etc etc. Boy did that ever come off the rails in a hurry...


----------



## eMacMan

Speaking of the Kings promise of smaller government, I see the revised cabinet is expanding in size.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Well I'd say it's probably more what you -hope- is right
> *
> But the depictions of Trudeau as some sort of messiah is pretty amusing to say the least. But I suppose a similar cartoon could be drawn of any party leader who is looking as though they will become the next crowned king of the land who promises a big change from the years of 'darkness'.
> 
> King Harpo comes to mind, who was to lead us out of the land of overspending, big governments, scandals, etc etc. Boy did that ever come off the rails in a hurry...


Well what I would say is that I was simply doing what so many here on the left do when they see an editorial cartoon that they agree with the "basic sentiment"... have a laugh at it and state agreement with the basic sentiment. No hopes attached.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G (or any other Newfoundlanders and Labradorians) if you have any concerns or situations that need attention, I could speak to my MP here in Fundy Royal, (the safest Conservative seat in Parliament since Confederation) Rob Moore, the Minister for NL. and ACOA (Especially any charity that is in need of unwanted attention.)



CBCNews said:


> A veteran MP from New Brunswick is now in a senior position to influence federal policy throughout Atlantic Canada.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper appointed Fundy Royal MP Rob Moore as minister of state for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency and regional minister for New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador.
> 
> Moore was among a group of new ministers named to Harper's cabinet on Monday.












Harper names Rob Moore as ACOA minister in shuffle - New Brunswick - CBC News


----------



## iMouse

Mmm, he looks personable enough from his picture.

Shallow, yes, but very political. So much is about image.

Which makes me think of the old saying "Keep your friends close, and you enemies closer." _- Tsun Tzu'_

If Harpoon feels threatened by him politically, his smart response is to move him closer.

Oh, and control him, by all means do that.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Dr.G (or any other Newfoundlanders and Labradorians) if you have any concerns or situations that need attention, I could speak to my MP here in Fundy Royal, (the safest Conservative seat in Parliament since Confederation) Rob Moore, the Minister for NL. and ACOA (Especially any charity that is in need of unwanted attention.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harper names Rob Moore as ACOA minister in shuffle - New Brunswick - CBC News


At least he was born in Gander, NL.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> At least he was born in Gander, NL.


Do you want him back? <askhopefully>


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Do you want him back? <askhopefully>


Well, his Gander district is held by a Liberal and is a safe Liberal seat, so is he willing to cross the House?


----------



## BigDL

Sadly Rob lacks the pragmatism to execute such a plan.

I am thinking his dearth of judgement regarding the "Grace Foundation " would prevent Rob from being warmly received by a new leader such as, Mr. Trudeau.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Sadly Rob lacks the pragmatism to execute such a plan.
> 
> I am thinking his dearth of judgement regarding the "Grace Foundation " would prevent Rob from being warmly received by a new leader such as, Mr. Trudeau.


Having had the value of his participation at the Grace event so demeaned, Mr, Trudeau is unlikely to wish to be reminded of the debacle.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Sadly Rob lacks the pragmatism to execute such a plan.
> 
> I am thinking his dearth of judgement regarding the "Grace Foundation " would prevent Rob from being warmly received by a new leader such as, Mr. Trudeau.


do you hear a noise? 

I'm guessing that little debacle may put a dampener on that.


----------



## BigDL

*PMO Friends and Enemy Lists*



CBCNews said:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office asked staff to include a list of "friend and enemy stakeholders" in their transition binders for new ministers appointed in Monday's cabinet shuffle, according to a leaked email.
> 
> The email, obtained by CBC News and several other media outlets, was sent July 4 by Erica Furtado in the Prime Minister's Office and shows a checklist for what should be in the transition binders.
> 
> POLITICSWho's who in the Harper cabinet
> "Who to avoid: bureaucrats that can't take no (or yes) for an answer" is on the list, as well as "Who to engage or avoid: friend and enemy stakeholders."


PMO asked staff to supply 'enemy' lists to new ministers - Politics - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

*Jason Kenney’s speech to Islamic Society of North America removed from government (and personal) websites*



> Liberal Party leader Justin Trudeau has received sharp criticism for speaking last week to the Islamic Society of North America, an organization the secular Muslim Canadian Congress describes as “Canada’s leading Islamist group.”
> 
> As it happens, former citizenship and immigration minister (and current employment and social development minister) Jason Kenney also spoke to the group in November 2008.
> 
> Oddly, his speaking notes for the breakfast meeting seem to have been erased from Kenney’s website, and from the online archives of Citizenship and Immigration Canada.
> 
> I’m sure this is due to a simple computer glitch rather than any attempt to re-write the historical record, and that the text of Kenney’s rather lengthy speech will soon be restored to both websites.
> 
> After all, Kenney himself told the ISNA how much he appreciated the opportunity to begin a “closer dialogue between the government of Canada, the Conservative Party of Canada, and the Muslim community in general, ISNA in particular.”
> 
> In the meantime, readers can access cached versions of Kenney’s speech here and here.


(Macleans)









*November 2008*
_The Honourable Jason Kenney, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, spoke at a breakfast reception hosted by the Islamic Society of North America Canada._
*Mississauga, Ontario*​


----------



## BigDL

Here's something that should be very concerning for many working Canadians. Less folks collecting EI since end of WWII.

EI benefits falling faster than unemployment | rabble.ca



> Statistics Canada reported this week that 12,290 fewer Canadians received Employment Insurance (EI) benefits in May compared to April. EI benefits are shrinking far faster than unemployment.
> 
> In percentage terms, the number of EI recipients declined as much in just the last month as unemployment declined over the past year. Between April and May, the number of unemployed Canadians decreased by only 1 per cent while the number of EI beneficiaries decreased by 2.4 per cent. Compared to May of last year, the number of unemployed workers was down by 2.4 per cent but the number of EI beneficiaries was down by 7.4 per cent.
> 
> We already know from the Labour Force Survey that unemployment rose in June. The downward trend in EI is troubling given that more workers will likely need benefits.
> 
> The federal government is cutting back EI too quickly given that unemployment is barely decreasing. As Armine Yalnizyan points out, EI coverage is now at its lowest level since World War II.


With *OGL* how long before this Con's government destroys the social fabric of this country.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Here's something that should be very concerning for many working Canadians. Less folks collecting EI since end of WWII.


Why do you suppose that's happening? Would appreciate an answer involving technical details.

Since the system is funded by the insured pool, would you like to see EI insurance deductions increased to pay for more benefits, thus restoring the "fabric"?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Here's something that should be very concerning for many working Canadians. Less folks collecting EI since end of WWII.
> 
> EI benefits falling faster than unemployment | rabble.ca
> 
> 
> 
> With *OGL* how long before this Con's government destroys the social fabric of this country.


Gotta balance that budget doncha know, have to pay for all them corporate tax cuts which was supposed to create jobs but no it went to unprecedented cash hoarding.

Brilliant stuff.


----------



## Lawrence

BigDL said:


> Here's something that should be very concerning for many working Canadians. Less folks collecting EI since end of WWII.
> 
> EI benefits falling faster than unemployment | rabble.ca
> 
> 
> 
> With *OGL* how long before this Con's government destroys the social fabric of this country.


They stole 50 billion from the unemployment fund and now everyone is on welfare,
Yeah, Sure, The con's are doing a fantastic job for Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

EI whistleblower suspended without pay - British Columbia - CBC News

Reading about this just makes my skin crawl. As one commenter said, soon we should be suspending Harper without pay.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> EI whistleblower suspended without pay - British Columbia - CBC News
> 
> Reading about this just makes my skin crawl. As one commenter said, soon we should be suspending Harper without pay.


There are not too many people who would stand up for her/his convictions and take this action, knowing what it would mean in the final analysis. Still, as she said, she could not sleep at night knowing what her actions would be doing to other people.


----------



## iMouse

Why in Hell did she not lie, and say it was not her.

She would sure be in good company there if she did.

Damn sphincters.


----------



## mrjimmy

It makes you wonder about all the other (secret) quotas.

Hopefully others have the courage and conviction of Sylvie Therrien.


----------



## iMouse

That is why they will do everything in their power to nail her to the cross.

I believe all tyrants have the same modus operandi.

And to avoid that happening we must continue to raise bloody Hell across all media.


----------



## eMacMan

iMouse said:


> That is why they will do everything in their power to nail her to the cross.
> 
> I believe all tyrants have the same modus operandi.
> 
> And to avoid that happening we must continue to raise bloody Hell across all media.


Yep we need to nail the guys that want to kill the messenger!


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> They stole 50 billion from the unemployment fund and now everyone is on welfare,
> Yeah, Sure, The con's are doing a fantastic job for Canadians.


Just making sure that you recall who "they" were. The $50 billion was removed by Chretien-Martin, not the Conservatives.


----------



## groovetube

‘They consider this matter closed’: Charity drops refund request to Justin Trudeau, kicks out board members | National Post

Not only was the request dropped, but the board members involved in leaking this to the conservatives booted out.

The cons never had permission to use them as political fodder, but given the *bully* nature of conservatives that we've seen, that sure didn't stop them.

Seems to have backfired.


----------



## BigDL

Sadly *OGL*'s cons embarrassed a charitable organization in an end justifies the mean scenario. 

What a mean spirited bunch of political hacks, with those credentials they must be chomping to reach the trough of Nirvana...er the Senate.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> EI whistleblower suspended without pay - British Columbia - CBC News
> 
> Reading about this just makes my skin crawl. As one commenter said, soon we should be suspending Harper without pay.



Makes my skin crawl that she was only suspended too. She should have been fired.


----------



## groovetube

Yeah damn people blowing the whistle on a liar government. Should bring back te death penalty eh?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Yeah damn people blowing the whistle on a liar government. Should bring back te death penalty eh?


Be serious, gt. 5 years in prison would be a suitable to deter anyone else from revealing information damaging to the current government.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Be serious, gt. 5 years in prison would be a suitable to deter anyone else from revealing information damaging to the current government.


a current, 'conservative' government.

I think heavyall would like that amendment.

and yes maybe I was a bit harsh. 5 years it is. For daring to blow the whistle on the government.

Adscam ok, because they were liberals!.


----------



## mrjimmy

I guess it begs the question, when is whistle blowing a good thing to the rabid partisan?

Perhaps never. My party right or wrong.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Makes my skin crawl that she was only suspended too. She should have been fired.


Considering that she signed a document stating that she would not do exactly what she did--yes. There is nothing wrong with rooting out EI fraud. If she could not find enough cases to root out, she should have simply worked on the cases that were frauds, then tell her supervisor that there were no other frauds in her caseload.


----------



## groovetube

If my choice of party was in, of course I'd want a whistle blower to out them if they're lying!

How useless is it to allow a government to commit these sorts of things on taxpayers and fire the whistle blowers?


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> I guess it begs the question, when is whistle blowing a good thing to the rabid partisan?
> 
> Perhaps never. My party right or wrong.


True, mrj. "Death before dishonor" to expose items which damage the current government. Paix, mon ami.

Personally, I am sure that I would have had the courage to do what she did, so my hat is off to her and her actions.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Makes my skin crawl that she was only suspended too. She should have been fired.


Yep God forbid civil servants act in the interest of taxpayers rather than the government in power.

Notice that South of the border BO wants to charge Snowden with treason, even though the US constitution clearly spells out what treason is, in order to prevent politicians from using the charge for political purposes. Snowden's revelations fail to meet the treason criteria by at least a mile, but BO wants to go that direction in order to keep him locked up without being able to pass along any more of his knowledge.

GIven the Harpolites tendency to copy very bad ideas from souse of the border, we need to be on the lookout for enabling legislation this fall.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Considering that she signed a document stating that she would not do exactly what she did--yes.


Just like you cannot sign away certain rights (e.g. you cannot sell yourself into slavery), you cannot sign away the responsibility to be a human being.

Many organizations will have you sign a general non-disclosure agreement when you're hired, but if you, as an employee of such an organization, discover they are doing something profoundly unethical, such as the Conservative government is doing here, it is your responsibility as a human being to expose the malfeasance, even if it means breaking the agreement you signed.

More to the point, the government policy here clearly illustrates the Harper attitude towards poor people: "they're all cheats and liars and we will assume they're lying until proven otherwise."


----------



## screature

*Poverty rate’ drops to lowest level ever and media turns a blind eye*

Poverty rate’ drops to lowest level ever and media turns a blind eye

No anti-government media bias here... nope none at all. 



> It’s been almost a month since Statistics Canada released its latest report on poverty in Canada (“Income of Canadians,” June 27). Since then I’ve been watching to see whether somebody, anybody would write about it.
> 
> You would think somebody would. It is a well-established principle of social justice that a society should make its first priority improving the lot of the worst off among it, and is to be judged by how well it does in this regard. What is more, the news on this front is remarkable, even extraordinary.
> 
> In 2011, the latest year for which StatsCan has figures, the proportion of the population living on low income — that is, with incomes below the agency’s Low Income Cut-off (LICO) — fell to its lowest level … well, ever. At just 8.8 per cent, it beat the previous record of 9.0 per cent, set in 2010. As recently as 1996, it was at 15.2 per cent. In 1965, the first year for which LICO rates were calculated, it was 25 per cent.
> 
> Certainly if the trend were in the other direction, we’d be reading about nothing but. That’s not speculation: when the poverty rate was rising, it was a staple of news and commentary. “Nearly four million Canadians,” the Toronto Star told its readers in December of 1992, “now live in abject poverty.” But now that fewer than three million Canadians are in poverty, it is no longer worthy of notice?...


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Just like you cannot sign away certain rights (e.g. you cannot sell yourself into slavery), you cannot sign away the responsibility to be a human being.
> 
> Many organizations will have you sign a general non-disclosure agreement when you're hired, but if you, as an employee of such an organization, discover they are doing something profoundly unethical, such as the Conservative government is doing here, it is your responsibility as a human being to expose the malfeasance, even if it means breaking the agreement you signed.
> 
> More to the point, the government policy here clearly illustrates the Harper attitude towards poor people: "they're all cheats and liars and we will assume they're lying until proven otherwise."


It may be objectionable, but it is only unethical to falsely accuse an EI recipient of cheating. Her prime concern was that her actions might prevent EI recipients from receiving EI. If that's your job, then it might be better to find another line of work.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Poverty rate’ drops to lowest level ever and media turns a blind eye
> 
> No anti-government media bias here... nope none at all.


They're busy rewriting the definition of poverty.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It may be objectionable, but it is only unethical to falsely accuse an EI recipient of cheating. Her prime concern was that her actions might prevent EI recipients from receiving EI. If that's your job, then it might be better to find another line of work.


Her job was to weed out the scum, not prevent or delay legitimate claims. The fact that she felt pressure to do the latter is what caused her to blow the whistle.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> They're busy rewriting the definition of poverty.


I think the bar will be raised to families with less than 150 TV channels, less that 5mb/sec internet access and only one smart phone per household.


----------



## groovetube

with the cuts to statscan, the iron grip on information that can and can't go out, and the killing of the long census form, who can be sure of the accuracy of stats anymore?

We all know, it's about controlling the message with Harper.

So saying they're busy rewriting the definition of poverty, well that's likely not too far from the truth.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Her job was to weed out the scum, not prevent or delay legitimate claims. The fact that she felt pressure to do the latter is what caused her to blow the whistle.


All too true, eMacMan. This is what caused her the stress to do as she did, an act, as I have said, I am not sure that I could have done. Deep down, I am an honest person, but not a brave person. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

MacGuiver said:


> I think the bar will be raised to families with less than 150 TV channels, less that 5mb/sec internet access and only one smart phone per household.


. beejacon


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> ...and the killing of the long census form, who can be sure of the accuracy of stats anymore?


The accuracy of the long census form has been in question for years. I personally know a number of people of have written "Jedi Knight" as their religion, just as one example. I also know a guy who gives an account of his livestock as "7 cows, 7 horses, 7 sheep, 7 chickens" and so on down the line, then giving a grand total of 7 livestock. He's been doing this since the 70's.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> the killing of the long census form


Can you please for just ONE DAY stop lying? 

It wasn't killed. They just removed the criminal penalties for NOT filling it out -- penalties that never should have existed in a free society.


----------



## iMouse

And this is the result. Satisfied?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/loss-o...-to-spotty-demographic-data-experts-1.1273352


----------



## heavyall

iMouse said:


> And this is the result. Satisfied?
> 
> Loss of long-form census leads to spotty demographic data: experts | CTV News


Very satisfied. People's privacy respected.

According to the article, participation dropped from 92% to 68%. That confirms the government's rationale that many people did not agree with the mandatory requirement. It's win-win: those who felt invaded have their freedom, and a large majority still gave the information freely. That is a job well done, and a public policy that actually did what it's supposed to.


----------



## iMouse

How was their privacy threatened?

So you agree that services withheld/cancelled due to incorrect or misleading data is OK?

I'm sure that would play into the Harper Government's push to cut costs. Witness the latest 'quota' snafu.


----------



## heavyall

iMouse said:


> How was their privacy threatened?



They were required, under penalty of law, to divulge information they did not feel comfortable sharing with the government.



> So you agree that services withheld/cancelled due to incorrect or misleading data is OK?


That's spin from a left-wing university that would criticize any move this government made.




> I'm sure that would play into the Harper Government's push to cut costs. Witness the latest 'quota' snafu.


More lies from the left. A target is very different from a quota, and the targets the investigators were given are very low in comparison to the amount of fraud going on. There's no evidence whatsoever that anyone who had a legitimate claim was cut off.


----------



## iMouse

The woman stated flatly that she could not in all conscience modify her reports from the truth, so as to disqualify enough to meet her "target".

You appear to be nothing if not a sycophant for Heir Harper.


----------



## heavyall

iMouse said:


> The woman stated flatly that she could not in all conscience modify her reports from the truth, so as to disqualify enough to meet her "target".
> 
> You appear to be nothing if not a sycophant for Heir Harper.


Typical bleeding heart bureaucrat that couldn't respect the confidentiality document she signed, nor the fact that investigating fraud was her actual job. 

Her biggest complaint was that she actually had to do any work. She didn't like that she had to call people, or follow up on anything. She should have been fired.


----------



## iMouse

It's been a blast.

Have a good evening.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Can you please for just ONE DAY stop lying?
> 
> It wasn't killed. They just removed the criminal penalties for NOT filling it out -- penalties that never should have existed in a free society.


I wasn't lying. They effectively killed it by not making it mandatory. What good is it if the data is spotty at best? 

For someone that whines about vicious attacks you sure do just fine yourself.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> It's been a blast.
> 
> Have a good evening.


As I said, this one complained about vicious attacks.

Fury's valet it seems. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> They were required, under penalty of law, to divulge information they did not feel comfortable sharing with the government.


I had a census "block captain" threaten my wife with legal action while I was out for failing to fill out the long form some time back. He returned several times until she filled out any old information on the form so that she could keep keep him from stalking her any longer.

One of the big lies of the census is that it needs my information to determine what sort of government services I need. There is no option to tell them which services you don't need and never want. When I have filled it out, I fill it out in such a way as to minimize the possibilities for increased government spending.


----------



## Lawrence

Can't do it yet, Working on it


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> I had a census "block captain" threaten my wife with legal action while I was out for failing to fill out the long form some time back. He returned several times until she filled out any old information on the form so that she could keep keep him from stalking her any longer.
> 
> One of the big lies of the census is that it needs my information to determine what sort of government services I need. There is no option to tell them which services you don't need and never want. When I have filled it out, I fill it out in such a way as to minimize the possibilities for increased government spending.


I'll have to say, I have always admired your wit

Touche' old friend, I am done.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I wasn't lying. They effectively killed it by not making it mandatory. What good is it if the data is spotty at best?
> 
> For someone that whines about vicious attacks you sure do just fine yourself.


It wasn't an attack of any kind, it was a plain observation of the fact that you were lying.


----------



## groovetube

Sure it is. 

I too am done for the night. Later.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It wasn't an attack of any kind, it was a plain observation of the fact that you were lying.


It's easy to catch some people in lies. However, if you demand they retract or apologize, you will be labeled a bully. I think it's a New Age thing.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> As I said, this one complained about vicious attacks.
> 
> Fury's valet it seems. :lmao:


When debaters throw rational out the window, to support their position, there is really not much sense in continuing.

I'll let them enable each other.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> When debaters throw rational out the window, to support their position, there is really not much sense in continuing.
> 
> I'll let them enable each other.


engaging them will only end in one of them mocking your personal details.

Why bother even starting.


----------



## mrjimmy

iMouse said:


> When debaters throw rational out the window, to support their position, there is really not much sense in continuing.
> 
> I'll let them enable each other.


They are but a few insignificant pixels in an ocean.


----------



## iMouse

True that, but helping them work-out their latent aggression is not really my specialty.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> engaging them will only end in one of them mocking your personal details.


It's called karma.

It happens once you've established yourself as a liar. Everything you've ever said or done, personally or professionally, comes into question.


----------



## mrjimmy

FeXL said:


> It's called karma.
> 
> It happens once you've established yourself as a liar. Everything you've ever said or done, personally or professionally, comes into question.


No, it's called trolling.



> You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use ehMac to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative any law.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> No, it's called trolling.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. People who nothing better to do than launch personal attacks like that constantly, who never get that I won't engage them, -ever-.

Life;s too short for this crap and people like that. I'm not wasting another pixel on those sorts.

They can continue to yell names and accusations from the rooftops, it only reflects badly on them.


----------



## iMouse

Watching you try out your borders is like watching a child seeing when they can get away with.

But then they grow-up.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> That's exactly what I'm talking about. People who nothing better to do than launch personal attacks like that constantly, who never get that I won't engage them, -ever-.
> 
> Life;s too short for this crap and people like that. I'm not wasting another pixel on those sorts.
> 
> They can continue to yell names and accusations from the rooftops, it only reflects badly on them.





iMouse said:


> Watching you try out your borders is like watching a child seeing when they can get away with.
> 
> But then they grow-up.


Many grow up but a few fail to mature..."not wasting pixels," on the ones bouncing around, just might be the plan.


----------



## FeXL

mrjimmy said:


> No, it's called trolling.


Just looking for some clarification here...

Where's the trolling?

Groove's post? My post? Both? Neither? Pointing out to someone that they're lying? Something else?


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Watching you try out your borders is like watching a child seeing when they can get away with.
> 
> But then they grow-up.


:clap:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Just looking for some clarification here...
> 
> Where's the trolling?
> 
> Groove's post? My post? Both? Neither? Pointing out to someone that they're lying? Something else?


I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer on this. The definition of trolling seems to change depending on the political leanings of the poster and what musical instrument the poster plays.


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau wants to legalize marijuana in order to ‘keep it out of the hands of our kids’ | National Post

Something you'll never see the conservatives do, they seem quite content in letting the gang bangers keep all the cash themselves. 

I suppose they'll all vote conservative next election for sure!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer on this. The definition of trolling seems to change depending on the political leanings of the poster and what musical instrument the poster plays.


Well, if he has a position, then he should be willing to defend it. I found the accusation vague, so I'm looking for clarification. If he is unwilling to clarify or defend, then it's so much chaff...

What's really funny is the mouse's post. Who is he addressing? Me? groove? mrjimmy? iMouse, here's a tip: if you're going to direct a response towards someone, at least have the courtesy to quote who you're directing the response to. Otherwise, it looks like you're directing your response to the last poster, in this case, groove.

If this was your intent, I have no argument...


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> ...they seem quite content in letting the gang bangers keep all the cash themselves.


I don't know if you use or not but, if you do, is that who you buy your dope from? Gang bangers?

Edit:

In addition, this is the entirety of your argument for the legalization of marijuana? So gang bangers don't get all the cash?

Seriously?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Otherwise, it looks like you're directing your response to the last poster, in this case, groove.


I think we can safely assume that was the case.


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I don't know if you use or not but, if you do, is that who you buy your dope from? Gang bangers?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> In addition, this is the entirety of your argument for the legalization of marijuana? So gang bangers don't get all the cash?
> 
> Seriously?


The problem here is that, while I favour freeing up resources used to prosecute marijuana users, I don't believe such a public policy can possible make marijuana more difficult for kids to get a hold of--you can grow it for Pete's sake! This statement is the typical kind of gabble that issues forth from JT's confused mind.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I don't believe such a public policy can possible make marijuana more difficult for kids to get a hold of--you can grow it for Pete's sake! This statement is the typical kind of gabble that issues forth from JT's confused mind.


Right now, since it's underground and the people selling it are criminals who will sell to whoever they consider likely to pay and unlikely to report them to authorities, it's easier for kids to get pot than it is for them to get tobacco or alcohol. If marijuana were legalized, the same regulatory system that does and imperfect but better job of keeping alcohol and tobacco out of the hands of minors would apply.

Your argument that "you can grow it" does not seem to be resulting in a lot of minors growing their own tobacco, or brewing their own beer, despite the fact that nicotine and alcohol are far more addictive substances than THC.

Legalization would not prevent 100% of underage drug abuse, but it would certainly reduce it.

And yes, this does appear to be the well-thought out, scientifically supported, and demonstrably successful sort of policy ideas that issue forth from JT's mind. It certainly beats the crap out of the anti-intellectual and ideological dogma that drives the Harper agenda.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Right now, since it's underground and the people selling it are criminals who will sell to whoever they consider likely to pay and unlikely to report them to authorities, it's easier for kids to get pot than it is for them to get tobacco or alcohol. If marijuana were legalized, the same regulatory system that does and imperfect but better job of keeping alcohol and tobacco out of the hands of minors would apply.
> 
> Your argument that "you can grow it" does not seem to be resulting in a lot of minors growing their own tobacco, or brewing their own beer, despite the fact that nicotine and alcohol are far more addictive substances than THC.
> 
> Legalization would not prevent 100% of underage drug abuse, but it would certainly reduce it.
> 
> And yes, this does appear to be the well-thought out, scientifically supported, and demonstrably successful sort of policy ideas that issue forth from JT's mind. It certainly beats the crap out of the anti-intellectual and ideological dogma that drives the Harper agenda.


:clap:

I'm amazed at how ill-informed people are, given that have such strong opinions on it anyway.

Yes, most people don't really buy from the top criminals, who are the ones making billions only to funnel back into more crime. But one would think that rather obvious (though some will still maintain the smaller ;regular joe' types selling small amounts are still criminals of course...) Quite a demographic that'll want to be sure they vote conservative next election!

If anyone actually read the news piece, JT said to 'tax it, and regulate it'. Not, go ahead and grow in your back yeard free wheelin crap. Where do people get this? It explains why we've been lighting billions on fire literally in this conservative money waster.

It won't stop kids altogether no. Nothing will. But just as teens have trouble getting booze and smokes they will pot too. As you said, I see any of them growing tobacco in their backyards, or running bathtub gin operations :lmao:

Of course, we've never see the Harper conservatives use the 'children' card before have we... :lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Right now, since it's underground and the people selling it are criminals who will sell to whoever they consider likely to pay and unlikely to report them to authorities, it's easier for kids to get pot than it is for them to get tobacco or alcohol. If marijuana were legalized, *the same regulatory system that does and imperfect but better job of keeping alcohol and tobacco out of the hands of minors would apply.*


You've made my point for me. Is there a teen today who can't get alcohol if he/she really wants it?



bryanc said:


> Your argument that "you can grow it" does not seem to be resulting in a lot of minors growing their own tobacco, or brewing their own beer, despite the fact that nicotine and alcohol are far more addictive substances than THC.


No, it results in a lot of the stuff being grown by sellers wherever it's wanted. 



bryanc said:


> Legalization would not prevent 100% of underage drug abuse, but it would certainly reduce it.


No degree of certainty here at all.



bryanc said:


> And yes, this does appear to be the well-thought out, scientifically supported, and demonstrably successful sort of policy ideas that issue forth from JT's mind. It certainly beats the crap out of the anti-intellectual and ideological dogma that drives the Harper agenda.


Someone with a more sophisticated thought process would simply have stated that the government should not prevent adults from smoking marijuana if they choose to. Instead, JT spuriously invokes "the children."


----------



## eMacMan

Can't stand the smell of the 5#!7, nor have I ever had any thing to do with it. If it were decriminalized I would be pressing the town council to pass a by-law making it illegal to smoke the crap in public places and having done that, demand that the town Nazi's enforce the by-law.

That said, the upper echelon dealers (other than the CIA) invest a reasonably large amount of capital in various politicians in order to maintain the current status. In plain English if it is decriminalized most of the money the upper-echelon dealers are pocketing would be redirected into taxes on their product. Instead we have a black-market trade. The product itself is not taxed, nor are the profits of the various dealers along the supply chain. Add in the cost of the war on drugs and the cost to taxpayers is immense.


----------



## iMouse

There are as many reasons to legalize pot as there are reasons why the Government loathes doing it.

Not everyone can make cigarettes from scratch, as tobacco is not an easy 'crop'. Taxation base is safe.

Making your own hard stuff requires a similar degree of difficulty, and much more risk. Taxation base is safe.

Beer can already be made for less than $100 for 96 bottles at a u-brew. Same with wine, about $120 for 30+ bottles. But people are lazy, so taxation base is safe.

But pot is easy as Hell to grow/mature/use. Taxation base threatened, if people turn away from the above 'legal' poisons, to something far less lethal.

And that's not even considering the resources used to prosecute it's growth/possession/use.

And then we get to innocents who are caught-up in the cross-fire when gang-bangers fight for territory.

Face it, your government controls your freedoms from birth to death, and even beyond. There is no escaping it.

</rant>


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> There are as many reasons to legalize pot as there are reasons why the Government loathes doing it.
> 
> Not everyone can make cigarettes from scratch, as tobacco is not an easy 'crop'. Taxation base is safe.
> 
> Making your own hard stuff requires a similar degree of difficulty, and much more risk. Taxation base is safe.
> 
> Beer can already be made for less than $100 for 96 bottles at a u-brew. Same with wine, about $120 for 30+ bottles. But people are lazy, so taxation base is safe.
> 
> But pot is easy as Hell to grow/mature/use. Taxation base threatened, if people turn away from the above 'legal' poisons, to something far less lethal.
> 
> And that's not even considering the resources used to prosecute it's growth/possession/use.
> 
> And then we get to innocents who are caught-up in the cross-fire when gang-bangers fight for territory.
> 
> Face it, your government controls your freedoms from birth to death, and even beyond. There is no escaping it.
> 
> </rant>


pot is no more easy to grow than it is to make a batch of beer. In fact making beer is easier and faster. (I realize that my "fan club" will howl that I'm a dope grower, but alas, I'm not. I don't even smoke it anymore)

Tobacco, I'd say that's the least likely anyone would take up growing. 

But if you took even just some, of the huge sums of hundreds of millions spent on pot criminalization alone, and out it to enforcing regulation, we're still ahead.

I'm by no means excited by the prospect of legalized pot really, I'm sure there'll be a 'glow period' (pun intended) but I think it'll be business as usual. We'll hear the usual people will be driving high! (as if they aren't now...) blah blah. But perhaps more of the wasted money can go to really enforcing the hard stuff, etc.

Win win.


----------



## SINC

Ban it completely. End of issues and no more brain damaged by products (users) to deal with.


----------



## groovetube

worked well so far! :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau: legalize marijuana to keep it away from kids | CTV News

Probably smart in the face of scandal plagued money wasting conservatives.

70% of BCers support legalization.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> worked well so far! :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


That is obvious.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Justin Trudeau: legalize marijuana to keep it away from kids | CTV News
> 
> Probably smart in the face of scandal plagued money wasting conservatives.
> 
> 70% of BCers support legalization.


Of course, don't they produce most of it?


----------



## groovetube

I'm not sure actually. Perhaps.

I wonder what the national support is, I best it's higher than what you think.

But JT might do well in bc which is good for him.


----------



## mrjimmy

FeXL said:


> Just looking for some clarification here...
> 
> Where's the trolling?
> 
> Groove's post? My post? Both? Neither? Pointing out to someone that they're lying? Something else?


Groove said this:



> engaging them will only end in one of them mocking your personal details.


Now we all know that making things personal is against the rules of ehMac...

You said this:



> It's called karma.
> 
> It happens once you've established yourself as a liar. Everything you've ever said or done, personally or professionally, comes into question.


This is you condoning making things personal.

This = trolling. No shifting definitions here. 

Again:



> You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use ehMac to post any material which is *knowingly* false and/or *defamatory*, inaccurate, *abusive*, vulgar, *hateful, harassing*, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, *threatening, invasive of a person's privacy*, or otherwise violative any law.


From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)



> In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Mr. Coyne has agreed with this critique or should I say factual correction - 

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=8702298


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Groove said this:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we all know that making things personal is against the rules of ehMac...
> 
> You said this:
> 
> 
> 
> This is you condoning making things personal.
> 
> This = trolling. No shifting definitions here.
> 
> Again:
> 
> 
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


When you can't win a debate in a forum, trolls always revert to personal attacks. Attacks on me, my professional life, both FeXL and Macfury regularly engage in it. That's why I never engage either of those two trolls. 

It's not about disagreeing or arguing a topic, but when it goes into people's personal lives this way, one can see the sort of person you're dealing with.

That's why a number of good members just gave up. And they cheer it on.

The definition of troll you posted describes those two to a tee.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Groove said this:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we all know that making things personal is against the rules of ehMac...
> 
> You said this:
> 
> 
> 
> This is you condoning making things personal.
> 
> This = trolling. No shifting definitions here.
> 
> Again:
> 
> 
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


However, it is not defamation if it happens to be true.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Mr. Coyne has agreed with this critique or should I say factual correction -
> 
> There


Goldman is just a "progressive" who favours the moving goal line. By his reasoning, if you could afford a basket of goods last year, and can also afford it this year, you suddenly become poor if everybody else in Canada now has a better cell phone.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Goldman is just a "progressive" who favours the moving goal line. By his reasoning, if you could afford a basket of goods last year, and can also afford it this year, you suddenly become poor if everybody else in Canada now has a better cell phone.


Except that Coyne has acknowledged and agreed with the critique. It's not about you...it's about the author.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Except that Coyne has acknowledged and agreed with the critique. It's not about you...it's about the author.


You must have forgot to link to Mr. Coyne's retraction. 

However, "it" does happen to be about me and my opinion on the matter.


----------



## groovetube

Chris Selley: Maybe Justin Trudeau can convince Stephen Harper of the insanity of our marijuana laws | National Post



> Politically speaking, those numbers give Mr. Trudeau an angle of attack at the Conservative record. On kids smoking pot, Canada ranks 29th best in the UNICEF report, which is to say last among “rich” nations. (We’re 18th best on alcohol, third best on smoking.) Countries whose children smoke weed less frequently include decriminalized or legalized jurisdictions such as the Netherlands (17%), Estonia (15%) and Belgium (16%).
> 
> *Stephen Harper’s Conservatives are all too eager to own Canada’s low crime rate. Why shouldn’t they own the stratospheric level of marijuana consumption among Canadian children?*


Ouch.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> You must have forgot to link to Mr. Coyne's retraction.
> 
> However, "it" does happen to be about me and my opinion on the matter.


Twitter post....


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> However, it is not defamation if it happens to be true.


Like you being called a troll?

Trolling is a violation of the terms of use. Calling one out as one is not a personal attack. 

Attempting to demean by using personal information is defamation. Pretty clear.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Like you being called a troll?
> 
> Trolling is a violation of the terms of use. Calling one out as one is not a personal attack.
> 
> *Attempting to demean by using personal information is defamation. Pretty clear.*


Yes. This is his main methods in trolling.

I have no problem with heated arguments even calling into question one another's sanity etc., but pulling personal info like that, is beyond low, and is simply pathetic.

Classic troll. If you got nothing...


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Twitter post....


That's a retraction? The drop in poverty by one method of calculation has not been "extraordinary?" 

I guess you gotta take 'em where you find 'em skippy.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> That's a retraction? The drop in poverty by one method of calculation has not been "extraordinary?"
> 
> I guess you gotta take 'em where you find 'em skippy.


Perhaps you missed the "I stand corrected" part. Skewed again?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Like you being called a troll?
> 
> Trolling is a violation of the terms of use. Calling one out as one is not a personal attack.


I couldn't care less what anyone calls me on EhMac. 




mrjimmy said:


> Attempting to demean by using personal information is defamation. Pretty clear.


Calling someone a liar right after they lie publicly is personal information? Well, jimmy, that is certainly a creative use of the definition.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Perhaps you missed the "I stand corrected" part. Skewed again?


He stands corrected about the reduction in poverty being "extraordinary" by that one definition. He does not drop the premise. However, Coyne is being overly generous--Goldman's arguments are pretty weak.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Like you being called a troll?
> 
> Trolling is a violation of the terms of use. Calling one out as one is not a personal attack.
> 
> Attempting to demean by using personal information is defamation. Pretty clear.


perhaps if trolls publicly call someone a liar because they maintain someone lied about their personal information, can also offer public proof of their claim.

Since I know I've not lied about my personal information, the lack of this proof would mean, they are the real pathetic liars. 

People who make public claims and attacks like that on another I would consider to be a real lowlife to make public claims like that, over and over like that.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I couldn't care less what anyone calls me on EhMac.


Really...



Macfury said:


> Calling someone a liar right after they lie publicly is personal information? Well, mrjimmy, that is certainly a creative use of the definition.


You just don't see it, do you. Your goading, your use of inflammatory language, your baiting, I could go on and on. As far as personal attacks, who plays an instrument that you mention in a dismissive way? Hmm...

If you really want to tear it up I suggest going over to Macmagic. Say whatever you like there. Be whatever you like. No holds barred. You'll have fun - or maybe not...

Here at ehMac, we have rules. Are you not able to enjoy yourself here without following them?


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> You've made my point for me. Is there a teen today who can't get alcohol if he/she really wants it?


I conceded this explicitly in my opening statement; the regulation of legal drugs is imperfect.

However, speaking from experience, and on the basis of the statistics, it is *easier* for kids to get illegal drugs than it is for them to get legal drugs. The is *because* the vendors of legal drugs check ID and risk loosing their profitable business if they're caught selling to minors, whereas the people selling illegal drugs are criminals by definition, and therefore don't care about regulations.



> Someone with a more sophisticated thought process would simply have stated that the government should not prevent adults from smoking marijuana if they choose to. Instead, JT spuriously invokes "the children."


The fact that the government should not prevent adults from smoking marijuana is a point that JT and many others have made many times, and it is so blindingly obvious that it goes without saying (except if your a Conservative supporter who is so divorced from reality that you think the ban on these substances has been good for society). The point that regulated sales of marijuana will reduce underage consumption is slightly more subtle (it certainly seems to have evaded your towering intellect  ), and therefore is one worth pointing out in this context.


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Ban it completely. End of issues and no more brain damaged by products (users) to deal with.


What a great idea! I'm sure no one's thought of that before... oh... wait... we've been trying that for the past century or so, and the problem has only gotten worse... But the heck with facts! Let's just pretend the War on Drugs is working! It certainly making epic piles of money for gangsters and keeping prisons full of people who were otherwise peaceful productive citizens. So let's keep doing it!


----------



## bryanc

[in response to Groovetube's citing the fact that 70% of BC residents support the legalization of marijuana]


SINC said:


> Of course, don't they produce most of it?


They certainly do produce a lot of it. But 76% of Maritimers support legalization, and 66% of Canadians overall support legalization. Face it SINC, this is a lost cause; the U.S. is decriminalizing and legalizing as fast as it can, and Canada is going the same way. It's just embarrassing that it took so long.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> [in response to Groovetube's citing the fact that 70% of BC residents support the legalization of marijuana]
> 
> They certainly do produce a lot of it. But 76% of Maritimers support legalization, and 66% of Canadians overall support legalization. Face it SINC, this is a lost cause; the U.S. is decriminalizing and legalizing as fast as it can, and Canada is going the same way. It's just embarrassing that it took so long.


thx. I didn't have the stats handy but knew they were high.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I conceded this explicitly in my opening statement; the regulation of legal drugs is imperfect.
> 
> However, speaking from experience, and on the *basis of the statistics, it is *easier* for kids to get illegal drugs than it is for them to get legal drugs*. The is *because* the vendors of legal drugs check ID and risk loosing their profitable business if they're caught selling to minors, whereas the people selling illegal drugs are criminals by definition, and therefore don't care about regulations.
> 
> 
> The fact that the government should not prevent adults from smoking marijuana is a point that JT and many others have made many times, and it is so blindingly obvious that it goes without saying (except if your a Conservative supporter who is so divorced from reality that you think the ban on these substances has been good for society). The point that regulated sales of marijuana will reduce underage consumption is slightly more subtle (it certainly seems to have evaded your towering intellect  ), and therefore is one worth pointing out in this context.


Do you have a link? 

Personally I am for decriminalization but not because it will make it harder for kids to get, I think that is just a "soft sell" political reason. When I was underage it was every bit as easy and easier to get beer than to get pot.

If JT was being honest he would state the much more obvious reasons for decriminalization. They aren't as touchy feely as "trying to get it out of the hands of kids" but they are more important.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> The point that regulated sales of marijuana will reduce underage consumption is slightly more subtle (it certainly seems to have evaded your towering intellect  ), and therefore is one worth pointing out in this context.


It is not a demonstrable premise. You can postulate, but the benefits in this department seem to be unicorn-based.



bryanc said:


> ...the U.S. is decriminalizing and legalizing as fast as it can, and Canada is going the same way. It's just embarrassing that it took so long.


I continue to point out that all of these drugs were legal 100 years ago. People might have looked askance at a user stumbling out of an opium den, but there were no laws prohibiting it.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> [in response to Groovetube's citing the fact that 70% of BC residents support the legalization of marijuana]
> 
> They certainly do produce a lot of it. But 76% of Maritimers support legalization, and 66% of Canadians overall support legalization. Face it SINC, this is a lost cause; *the U.S. is decriminalizing and legalizing as fast as it can*, and Canada is going the same way. It's just embarrassing that it took so long.


3 states... really that makes it as fast as it can?


----------



## FeXL

mrjimmy said:


> This is you condoning making things personal.


No, this is me describing what happens to people, any & all, child or adult alike, who establish themselves as being liars. Which, BTW, is also in that wunnerful little list you've quoted a couple of times. You'll find it under the false & inaccurate departments. 

That's not a personal attack, that's reality. It's what happens when you cry "wolf" too many times. People just turn their backs to you 'cause they no longer believe what you have to say.

This is one of those things that everyone should have learned by kindergarten...

And, if groove is referring to the incident I think he is, no one made fun of his personal details. However, the observation was made as to the veracity of his story.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> f you really want to tear it up I suggest going over to Macmagic.


MacMagic spam reported.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Attacks on me, my professional life, both FeXL and Macfury regularly engage in it.


Where? Quote the post(s).

Edit:

I'm looking specifically for personal attacks I've allegedly made.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> 3 states... really that makes it as fast as it can?


They're slow?


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Do you have a link?


Sorry, no; I have an in-law in law enforcement, but no web-accessible links. I'll do some googling if I have time later today.



> Personally I am for decriminalization but not because it will make it harder for kids to get, I think that is just a "soft sell" political reason. When I was underage it was every bit as easy and easier to get beer than to get pot.


This differs considerably from my experience and from the data I've heard about. Regardless, there are ample good reasons to decriminalize and even legalize marijuana, and the current government's resistance to do so is just one of many examples of their legislating on the basis of ideological positions, rather than reason and evidence.



> If JT was being honest he would state the much more obvious reasons for decriminalization.


I understand he has done so in the past; this was discussed in the articles linked previously. JT has been a consistent advocate of decriminalization and legalization, and brought up the fact that illegal drugs are easier for underage users to get than legal drugs as "yet another reason" not as "the most obvious reason".


----------



## mrjimmy

FeXL said:


> No, this is me describing what happens to people, any & all, child or adult alike, who establish themselves as being liars. Which, BTW, is also in that wunnerful little list you've quoted a couple of times. You'll find it under the false & inaccurate departments.
> 
> That's not a personal attack, that's reality. It's what happens when you cry "wolf" too many times. People just turn their backs to you 'cause they no longer believe what you have to say.
> 
> This is one of those things that everyone should have learned by kindergarten...
> 
> And, if groove is referring to the incident I think he is, no one made fun of his personal details. However, the observation was made as to the veracity of his story.


As I'm sure you're aware, truth is subjective. The rules state 'knowingly false'. Show me the knowingly. Until then...



> You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use ehMac to *post any material which is knowingly false* and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative any law.


Also, continually calling someone a liar? I would call that harassment, wouldn't you?

Have we derailed enough?


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> They're slow?


Indeed they are; they have a much more vigorous, wealthy and entrenched opposition (the gangs, prison-industry, and politicians who profit from the War on Drugs). Yet they are faster than "liberal" Canada


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> When I was underage it was every bit as easy and easier to get beer than to get pot.
> 
> If JT was being honest he would state the much more obvious reasons for decriminalization. They aren't as touchy feely as "trying to get it out of the hands of kids" but they are more important.


You score on both these points.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> You score on both these points.


Only in the conservative alternate universe...



> Nineteen percent of high school seniors reported smoking at least one cigarette in the previous month, compared with 23% who reported smoking marijuana.
> 
> Read more: Teen Drug Use: Marijuana Up, Cigarettes and Alcohol Down | TIME.com





Johnston said:


> The latest nation-wide survey of drinking and drug use among teenagers in the U.S. finds marijuana use at a 30 year high while those drinking alcohol has dropped to a 30 year low.


I know Conservatives are loath to deal with facts when making policy decisions (and hence their enthusiasm for cutting research budgets and resources for fact-collecting agencies like Stats Canada), but this is another example of the many facets of reality that just don't fit with the Conservative ideology.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> As I'm sure you're aware, truth is subjective. The rules state 'knowingly false'. Show me the knowingly. Until then...
> 
> 
> 
> Also, continually calling someone a liar? I would call that harassment, wouldn't you?
> 
> Have we derailed enough?


it started here:
http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else...ed-recent-mass-shootings-113.html#post1311850

Where he called me a liar on several of my personal details in my life. My career, is, just a "personal fantasy... " Now, that's fine, but he simply won't let it go. It's has almost become an obsessive tick now, I've ignored all of his posts, and if he would do the same, things can finally just drop.

He has zero proof of any such lies about my personal life, has not offered any, and you know, he never will. Because there isn't any. I've been a lot of places in my travels/touring, and have seen a great number of things just as anyone who has spent the time I have travelling has. Their experiences sometimes is far greater than my own. Go to Jersey for a little while, just about everyone has had similar experiences there 10 times my own...

Macfury has taken up the torch because, well, that's just what he does. So now several of them have taken to calling me a liar, bald faced liar almost daily here. 

This is harassment. Either put up, or shut the hell up. Because if you don't, you're far worse than a bald faced liar, you're an obsessive compulsive bald face psycho liar.

So, put up, or drop it.


----------



## FeXL

mrjimmy said:


> As I'm sure you're aware, truth is subjective. The rules state 'knowingly false'. Show me the knowingly. Until then...


I've got no truck opening up that can of worms again but you'd better make sure you want me to. You can go back to those particular posts, read them yourself & draw your own conclusions. If you don't agree that they were 'knowingly false', I'll explain in clear & concise reasons exactly why they were. Your call...



mrjimmy said:


> Also, continually calling someone a liar? I would call that harassment, wouldn't you?


First, are they continually lying?

Second, who is continually calling anyone a liar?


----------



## Sonal

In some sense, it's a moot point as prescription drug use is up among young people (stolen from parents)--or so all these radio ads keep telling me.

But yeah, pot is very easy to get.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Only in the conservative alternate universe...


I think you're misreading the article. First, it measures American usage. Next, it doesn't suggest that any sort of regulation has made the teens shift to marijuana--it may simply be more fashionable. Only a few prescription drugs were now deemed harder to get. 

As a teen, they were all equally available to me.


----------



## bryanc

12 and 13 year olds are going to have trouble talking someone into going into the liquor store to buy them a quart of vodka, but they have no trouble finding someone to sell them pot on the playground.

Sure, kids will get into their parents liquor cabinet, but it's hard for them to *buy* alcohol or cigarets because *the government* makes it hard. If the government regulated the sale of marijuana, rather than criminals, not only would the government (and thereby us as citizens of Canada) enjoy the profits, the same regulatory mechanism would make it somewhat harder for minors to get it.

Sure, there will still be failures of the system; nothing is perfect. It's just better than the current situation.


----------



## mrjimmy

FeXL said:


> I've got no truck opening up that can of worms again but you'd better make sure you want me to. You can go back to those particular posts, read them yourself & draw your own conclusions. If you don't agree that they were 'knowingly false', I'll explain in clear & concise reasons exactly why they were. Your call...
> 
> 
> 
> First, are they continually lying?
> 
> Second, who is continually calling anyone a liar?


Do what you like. Just please follow the rules and regs of the forum.

Secondly, you were. When I have time to seek out the obvious I will. I do remember it being a bit much (understatement).

I see people accusing those they don't agree with as liars more than anyone anything else.

And as far as_ 'I better make sure I want you to'_. Enough with the threatening hyperbole ok? Seriously.


----------



## FeXL

OK, seeing as groove has opened the can of worms, I'll respond.

I believe this is the pertinent quote:



FeXL said:


> Has he actually ever had a gun pointed at him? Or did he create that story to curry favour for his argument? That sad tale a long time ago about being an addict. Was he just pulling at everyone's heartstrings? How much of that was true? All? Some? None? Is he actually a drummer in a band or is that just some childhood fantasy?
> 
> I don't know.


All I see here are question marks. Eight of them, if my eyesight is clear. So, ten sentences, eight of them questions. One sentence referring to an actual event. And, one sentence clearly saying "I don't know."

Where did I call him a liar?


----------



## FeXL

mrjimmy said:


> Do what you like. Just please follow the rules and regs of the forum.


I do. I would also consider reminding your little buddy of the same.



mrjimmy said:


> Secondly, you were. When I have time to seek out the obvious I will. I do remember it being a bit much (understatement).


Can't wait.



mrjimmy said:


> And as far as_ 'I better make sure I want you to'_. Enough with the threatening hyperbole ok? Seriously.


It wasn't threatening. It was a simple observation meaning, "Are you sure you want to splash all of this all over the front page, again? Are you sure groove wants you to?"

And, apparently, he does.


----------



## mrjimmy

FeXL said:


> OK, seeing as groove has opened the can of worms, I'll respond.
> 
> I believe this is the pertinent quote:
> 
> 
> 
> All I see here are question marks. Eight of them, if my eyesight is clear. So, ten sentences, eight of them questions. One sentence referring to an actual event. And, one sentence clearly saying "I don't know."
> 
> Where did I call him a liar?


Wow, you must have your liar blinders on. I see it everywhere and so did others. Like this for example (from the same thread):



Macfury said:


> There isn't even a grudge or any kind of hatred. *It's merely one member calling out another for being a liar.*


See ya.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> 12 and 13 year olds are going to have trouble talking someone into going into the liquor store to buy them a quart of vodka, but they have no trouble finding someone to sell them pot on the playground.


They'll have no trouble getting either, from a number of sources--not just asking someone to buy them vodka.



bryanc said:


> Sure, kids will get into their parents liquor cabinet,..


And perhaps soon, their marijuana humidor.



bryanc said:


> If the government regulated the sale of marijuana, rather than criminals, not only would the government (and thereby us as citizens of Canada) enjoy the profits, the same regulatory mechanism would make it somewhat harder for minors to get it.
> 
> Sure, there will still be failures of the system; nothing is perfect. It's just better than the current situation.


All of these subsequent arguments are window dressing to me. The freedom of others to smoke that crap is my number one issue.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Only in the conservative alternate universe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nineteen percent of high school seniors reported smoking at least one cigarette in the previous month, compared with 23% who reported smoking marijuana*.
> 
> 
> 
> I know Conservatives are loath to deal with facts when making policy decisions (and hence their enthusiasm for cutting research budgets and resources for fact-collecting agencies like Stats Canada), but this is another example of the many facets of reality that just don't fit with the Conservative ideology.
Click to expand...

And this is supposed to prove what? That there is a bigger bang for the buck in smoking pot over smoking tobacco? Now there's a revelation.

As for the rest of your post in which you paint all conservatives with the same brush, it is business as usual...

I know plenty of conservatives who are in favor of decriminalization/legalization, that this current administration does not reflect that does not mean that all conservatives think that way. 

There are plenty of conservative voters who don't support every policy of the party because issues are measured on a sliding scale of importance. Pot decriminalization/legalization just happens to be low on that scale.


----------



## FeXL

mrjimmy said:


> Wow, you must have your liar blinders on. I see it everywhere and so did others.


Wow, indeed. 

I'm pulling into question everything he's said, but I didn't accuse him of being a liar about those things.

Tell me the difference between these two sentences:

1) Billy, are you a liar?
2) Billy, you are a liar.


----------



## iMouse

.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Wow, you must have your liar blinders on. I see it everywhere and so did others. Like this for example (from the same thread):
> 
> 
> 
> See ya.


Is he now backtracking? I, and I know others have seen him use the word liar many times. Now Macfury has taken up the torch, insinuating that I'm a liar.

Yet none of them, will step up to the plate with any concrete reason to believe so and publicly call me a liar.

As I said, they can either put up, or shut the hell up.

Those experiences aren't by any means unique, they're pretty minor compared to people I know have been through. I'm a lightweight to them.

But this harassment ends here. It's the sort of crap that shows a person's true character isn't it. If they don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore then. But calling someone regularly a liar without any real valid reason to do so and nothing to show why other than their own personal bias, that's really, really low.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Wow, you must have your liar blinders on. I see it everywhere and so did others. Like this for example (from the same thread):


You must be going way back, when gt accused FeXL of saying EhMacers were "pussies if they don't own guns." 

FeXL asked gt to show him the post where he said this and gt came up typically empty-handed. This is why gt was initially accused of being a liar.


----------



## Sonal

How about we all quit with the "But you said!" and the "Where did I say?" and the "You started it!" and the "No, YOU started it!" and get back to talking about drugs and politics? 

Because I see 10 posts on this page, and exactly 2 are on-topic.


----------



## groovetube

I believe fury is referring to a disagreement between FeXL and I. Now, any normal person would have said they didn't intend that calling the pussification of kids not allowed to play with guns to mean adults are pussies without guns, and the disagreement would have ended right there probably civilly. But no, he started this ridiculous campaign on calling me a liar!, and then went on to attack me personally and personal details in my life. That's crossing the line bigtime.

If we can quit with the constant juvenile accusations of "liar" things can go back to normal.

But until this harrassment ends, I'm afraid this and other threads will continue to be derailed. It's up to them to drop it, because I will not put up with this harassment.

As I said. Put up, or shut the hell up. Take your pick.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Yet none of them, will step up to the plate with any concrete reason to believe so and publicly call me a liar.


I called you a liar (yes, repeatedly) publicly on these boards, about a single, specific post. I did so because you clearly & knowingly misrepresented the words of one of my posts. That's a matter of public record & there's no denying it.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not called you a liar about any other incident. You may quote posts to illustrate otherwise.

You want this to end? Good, me too.

I see three options here:
1) You can go back & publicly apologize for misrepresenting my words in the Gun Control thread. This will accomplish two things. First, the matter will be put to rest. Second, your credibility will begin to return;

2) You can continue to bleat & thump your chest & wave your hands in a vainglorious attempt to curry favour from the masses in support of your cause. Despite two concerted efforts across two disparate threads, this has accomplished nothing & will continue to do so. See 1);

3) You can put it on the back burner & let it fester for the rest of your life. This, too, will accomplish nothing and is also very unhealthy. See 1).

Your call. See 1)...


----------



## Sonal

Claiming living expenses on an uninhabitable home.... nicely done, Senator.

Senate scandal: RCMP say Mac Harb home ‘uninhabitable’ | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> I called you a liar (yes, repeatedly) publicly on these boards, about a single, specific post. I did so because you clearly & knowingly misrepresented the words of one of my posts. That's a matter of public record & there's no denying it.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, I have not called you a liar about any other incident. You may quote posts to illustrate otherwise.
> 
> You want this to end? Good, me too.
> 
> I see three options here:
> 1) You can go back & publicly apologize for misrepresenting my words in the Gun Control thread. This will accomplish two things. First, the matter will be put to rest. Second, your credibility will begin to return;
> 
> 2) You can continue to bleat & thump your chest & wave your hands in a vainglorious attempt to curry favour from the masses in support of your cause. Despite two concerted efforts across two disparate threads, this has accomplished nothing & will continue to do so. See 1);
> 
> 3) You can put it on the back burner & let it fester for the rest of your life. This, too, will accomplish nothing and is also very unhealthy. See 1).
> 
> Your call. See 1)...


No, you can publically apologize for being a jerk and attacking me personally. What kind of person goes that far?

You are a total bully who simply cannot and will not accept it was a disagreement of what you posted, which you could have clarified. The differences could have been worked out as agree to disagree on what you posted meant. But no, you went for the liar card. Then, on to question my personal life, which is lower than low.

You'll get NO apology from me after how you've attacked me personally, EVER. You can do one of two things. Put up, or shut up.

The insinuations continue, now your buddy macfury is making them, because well, he is a goading troll afterall.

This utter childish nonsense ends NOW.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Claiming living expenses on an uninhabitable home.... nicely done, Senator.
> 
> Senate scandal: RCMP say Mac Harb home ‘uninhabitable’ | Toronto Star


Clearly, falsely claiming living expenses is an equal opportunity sport! It's pretty sad when the lies become as transparent as these three recent cases.


----------



## FeXL

I thought you put me on ignore, groove.



groovetube said:


> No, you can publically apologize for being a jerk and attacking me personally.


Where?



groovetube said:


> The differences could have been worked out as agree to disagree on what you posted meant. But no, you went for the liar card. Then, on to question my personal life, which is lower than low.


You need to go back & reread that thread. You were given multiple opportunities to change your story. You didn't, I made my call. I stand by it. Now live with it.



groovetube said:


> You'll get NO apology from me after how you've attacked me personally, EVER.


Calm down, groove, you're starting to sound hysterical. Again, I repeat, where?



groovetube said:


> The insinuations continue, now your buddy macfury is making them, because well, he is a goading troll afterall.
> 
> This utter childish nonsense ends NOW.


I can no more control Macfury than I can control you. We all make our own choices. You made yours. If you have issues with Macfury, I suggest you take them up with Macfury.

BTW, I believe "goading troll" is name calling, a clear violation of the Terms of Service...


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> I thought you put me on ignore, groove.
> 
> 
> 
> Where?
> 
> 
> 
> You need to go back & reread that thread. You were given multiple opportunities to change your story. You didn't, I made my call. I stand by it. Now live with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Calm down, groove, you're starting to sound hysterical. Again, I repeat, where?
> 
> 
> 
> I can no more control Macfury than I can control you. We all make our own choices. You made yours. If you have issues with Macfury, I suggest you take them up with Macfury.
> 
> BTW, I believe "goading troll" is name calling, a clear violation of the Terms of Service...


I'm not playing the game of 'where'. Others have seen it, I'm tired of it.

Can the bully stuff, I am ignoring your posts to prevent any further incidents of being called a liar instead of working out a disagreement.

I suggest this campaign ends now, and that you too ignore my posts. Clearly, we dislike each other and each other's posts and opinions, and it's time to stop causing further disruptions for others here.

I meant no harm in my opinions, but when you went after my personal life in the post linked a few back, you crossed the line. Yes you can't control macfury, he does what he does, as he always has, which is why he is on permanent ignore. I will never engage him.

I don't care if you apologize or not for the personal attacks, I know I won't, so it's a draw. 

The time to end this, is now.


----------



## screature

Just a suggestion...

FeXL and groove, put each other on Ignore and be done with it.

You are both going around in circles at this point and dominating the thread for those of us who are actually interested in the topic as opposed to a personal squabble.

It is stuff like this that is driving people away from ehMac.

My 2 cents.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Just a suggestion...
> 
> FeXL and groove, put each other on Ignore and be done with it.
> 
> You are both going around in circles at this point and dominating the thread for those us who are actually interested in the topic as opposed to a personal squabble.
> 
> It is stuff like this that is driving people away from ehMac.
> 
> My 2 cents.


That's precisely my suggestion.

This nonsense has to end now.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That's precisely my suggestion.
> 
> This nonsense has to end now.


Great. I hadn't seen your post when I made my post.

Time to move on.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Clearly, falsely claiming living expenses is an equal opportunity sport! It's pretty sad when the lies become as transparent as *these three recent cases*.


Except in the case of Brazeau he (his office) wrote a letter to the Senate asking 20 questions (can't find the original but will keep looking) in defence of his housing claim.

Here is an excerpt from an article that talks about the letter: 

Patrick Brazeau plays 20 questions with senators over living expenses



> On Monday, his office sent out a lengthy letter to every senator asking them 20 questions about the Senate’s internal economy committee’s recommendation he pay back about $49,000 in housing expenses claimed over the last three years. (You can read the letter below.)
> 
> Many questions were aimed at prodding a little introspection among the 102 senators who voted to not only suspend Brazeau after he was charged with domestic assault, but also to instruct him to repay his housing claims, deeming them to be improper.
> 
> “These questions are neither trivial nor trifling,” the letter reads. “They concern the integrity and the future of the Senate of Canada and I would humbly ask that you give them due consideration.”
> 
> The letter is the latest in a series of written requests Brazeau has made to senators as the clock ticks down on a committee-imposed deadline of June 28 to repay the money the Senate says he owes. Thus far, Brazeau’s requests for an open meeting have been met with no response since first being made about one month ago, his office said Monday.
> 
> Brazeau has also:
> 
> 
> Asked the Senate for a chance to speak on the committee report before it was adopted on May 21. His request, however, came in too late for senators to grant him permission to attend the Senate sitting that day.
> 
> Submitted an amended motion to expand the auditor general’s audit of Senate spending to include a review of Senate policies and procedures for dealing with issues of suspected non-compliance with spending rules. Brazeau’s office said “this was ignored,” although a review of policies and procedures is expected to be included in the auditor general’s review as Michael Ferguson noted when he met with the internal economy committee on June 11.
> 
> Released an email he says shows his housing claims were vetted by Senate finance and approved, although it isn’t clear that the letter as actually proves that.
> *According to an audit of his expenses, Brazeau met all four criteria the committee laid out for proving the location of a senator’s primary residence for those members of the upper chamber who claimed a $22,000 a year housing allowance. Brazeau’s driver’s licence, health card, voting cards and income tax return listed his home as being in Maniwaki, Que., more than 100 kilometres from Parliament Hill.
> 
> Neither Harb nor Sen. Mike Duffy met those criteria. Brazeau has argued that by passing that test, he should have been exonerated.
> *
> However, auditor found he spent only 10 per cent of his time at his declared primary residence, and the internal economy committee decided that wasn’t good enough. The committee found him in violation of the Senate’s housing policy, which they said was “unambiguous,” disagreeing with the auditors’ conclusions.
> 
> The committee decided Brazeau should repay $48,744.
> 
> “The audit found that he meets all four criteria of primary residency according to Senate policy. Any fingers of blame are pointed squarely back to Senate policy, which is in dire need of revision,” said Brazeau’s spokeswoman Debby Simms.
> 
> Simms said Brazeau is “hopeful” the auditor general will probe the handling of Brazeau’s expense review, arguing the committee failed to do an “ethical, professional, unbiased and clean” investigation — charges the committee has rejected since Brazeau first raised them in May.
> 
> *“Rather than enforce Senate policy, they invented new policy — without informing the Senate as a whole, without informing the senators under scrutiny and without informing Canadians. It is important that the members of that committee be held to account for their actions,” Simms said.*


Brazeau is clearly (and possibly justifiably) persona non grata among Senators but the rules are the rules and apparently he met them. I think in Brazeau's case it is more about a witch hunt stemming from his sexual assault charges, but the twains should not meet between that case and his housing claims in the Senate.

IMO it seems that even in "trying" to clear things up the Senate is just embarrassing itself further.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Except in the case of Brazeau he (his office) wrote a letter to the Senate asking 20 questions (can't find the original but will keep looking) in defence of his housing claim.


At this point you'd need to fit them with leg cuff transmitters to prove they spend enough time in these homes!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> I'm not playing the game of 'where'. Others have seen it, I'm tired of it.


If you're going to prove your case, groove, you need to provide the evidence. How far do you think "Others have seen it" is going to carry you? I'm certainly not going to merely take your word, or the words of others, as evidence.



groovetube said:


> Can the bully stuff, I am ignoring your posts to prevent any further incidents of being called a liar instead of working out a disagreement.


If you don't want to be called a liar, don't lie, don't misrepresent someone else's words. It's that basic. It's also that complicated. If this is your solution to avoid the problem in the future, fine. As I noted, you had ample opportunity to change your story. You chose to ignore that opportunity. You've made your bed. Lie in it.



groovetube said:


> I suggest this campaign ends now, and that you too ignore my posts. Clearly, we dislike each other and each other's posts and opinions, and it's time to stop causing further disruptions for others here.


I don't have anyone on ignore & have no intention of putting anyone on ignore. I'm not comfortable, nor happy with that kind of censorship. I don't dislike you (How could I? I don't even know you), nor your posts (well, just one...) or opinions (So they're different than mine. Vive la difference. The question is, can you support your position?) but appreciate your candor in not liking me and mine.



groovetube said:


> I meant no harm in my opinions, but when you went after my personal life in the post linked a few back, you crossed the line.


You crossed the line in misrepresenting my words and, in the heat of debate, subsequently failed to take the opportunity to change that. That was your choice. If you want no one to discuss your personal life, leave none of it on a public forum.

And, I did not call you a liar about anything in your personal life. Question it? Absolutely! Lie about it? Not once. You can do the same in questioning as to whether I'm actually a photographer, or ride a motorcycle, or eat red meat or have a lovely bride. Frankly, I don't care what you or anyone else questions about me. Just don't lie about me...



groovetube said:


> Yes you can't control macfury, he does what he does, as he always has, which is why he is on permanent ignore. I will never engage him.


I believe that is unfortunate. One can learn something from everyone.



groovetube said:


> I don't care if you apologize or not for the personal attacks, I know I won't, so it's a draw.


Your trying to negotiate for something that doesn't exist. I've nothing to apologize for. The questions about your personal life were just that: questions. Not accusations. Not lies. At no point did I lie & say, "groove is not a drummer". Big difference. As far as a draw is concerned, this is not a competition, it's about what is right & what is wrong.



groovetube said:


> The time to end this, is now.


The only way this will truly end is if you apologize for misrepresenting my words. That's what started this, that's what is required to end this.

Your ball...


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> At this point you'd need to fit them with leg cuff transmitters to prove they spend enough time in these homes!


Quite frankly it isn't and shouldn't be about where you spend most of your time. Plenty of MPs spend more time in Ottawa than they do in their constituencies (primary residence). 

It is a matter of what province is your primary residence in, i.e. where do you pay taxes, vote, get your health care, have your drivers license etc.

Even for the average Canadian citizen now in many provinces you can be outside the country for more than half the year and you are still entitled to your health care.

The problem is that the Senate Board of Economy made up the rules as they went along for Brazeau. Like I said he was already persona non grata and they just wanted to make sure they could punish him so they moved the yardsticks so he couldn't qualify.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Have to agree. There is a significant level of harassment at times. But I expect that from Harper fans.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Have to agree. There is a significant level of harassment at times. But I expect that from Harper fans.


How are comments like that in the least bit constructive and raise the level of discourse?

Seems like it is just more trolling to me.


----------



## screature

Ooops...

NDP MP Paul Dewar fined $7,000 by regulator over campaign robocalls



> Paul Dewar was fined $7,000 by the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission as part of what it calls a wide-ranging investigation.
> 
> The CRTC says Dewar co-operated with its investigators and paid the fine as part of a settlement agreement.
> 
> Dewar is the member of Parliament for Ottawa Centre, and the party's foreign affairs critic.
> 
> "We appreciate the co-operation we received during our investigations," Andrea Rosen, the agency's chief compliance and enforcement officer, said in a statement.
> 
> "We expect candidates who are running political campaigns, and telemarketing service providers to put appropriate safeguards in place to ensure compliance with the Unsolicited Telecommunications Rules."...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Ooops...
> 
> NDP MP Paul Dewar fined $7,000 by regulator over campaign robocalls


Isn't that just like the Cons... oh wait a second!


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Isn't that just like the Cons... oh wait a second!


no; don't wait. Bust the sonofabitch and prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law. There's no excuse for this sort of rubbish from any party.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Isn't that just like the Cons... oh wait a second!


Not quite, he stepped up and took the blame rather than throwing an intern under the bus.


----------



## heavyall

delete


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Not quite, he stepped up and took the blame rather than throwing an intern under the bus.


yes he did. But that's a major detail probably lost on many conservatives.

I also agree with Bryanc, it doesn't matter what party the offender is from, go after them for any misdeeds. We've excused parties/government and allowed them to blame it on some lowly intern for far too long.


----------



## iMouse

"The buck stops here (except when it doesn't)."_ - Harry S. Harpoon_


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Not quite, he stepped up and took the blame rather than throwing an intern under the bus.


That's because he was responsible, not an intern.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> yes he did. But that's a major detail probably lost on many conservatives.
> 
> I also agree with Bryanc, it doesn't matter what party the offender is from, go after them for any misdeeds. We've excused parties/government and allowed them to blame it on some lowly intern for far too long.


Agreed.

Where are the howls of outrage from conservatives with *OGL's* current governments malfeasance. 

*OGL's* Government can't bring in military procurement even to save their souls. Where's the promised "open and transparency." Where's the "senate reform."

The majority of the Senate scandal comes from Conservative appointed Senators as *OGL's* Senate appointments is the largest.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The majority of the Senate scandal comes from Conservative appointed Senators as *OGL's* Senate appointments is the largest.


This certainly explains it.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Agreed.
> 
> *Where are the howls of outrage from conservatives* with *OGL's* current governments malfeasance.
> 
> *OGL's* Government can't bring in military procurement even to save their souls. Where's the promised "open and transparency." Where's the "senate reform."
> 
> The majority of the Senate scandal comes from Conservative appointed Senators as *OGL's* Senate appointments is the largest.


You'll likely never hear any. t's the intern's fault, something the liberals made them do, the dog ate their homework, etc etc. oh like the dog that suddenly looks up and yells "squirrel!!", you'll see one say "adscam!"

Then the liberals get in, everything will be different, (just like the conservatives told their voters...) and the same thing unfolds. 

This whole my party is better stuff has led to us having bad government, it's because we've made excuses for, justified, accepted their, unacceptable behaviour, because it's not the 'other guy', we've fallen for the this mythical 'left vs right' sham the political parties have created to keep us all busy, and our eyes off the ball.

Freedom! Yells one. Justice for all! yells another. Eventually, a fight breaks out. Liar! No YOU are a liar!

Sheer stupidity.


----------



## SINC

^

Trolling at its finest.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Trolling at its finest.


See^^^^. That's -exactly- what I'm talking about.

Perhaps it upsets the whole circus for you, I don't know.

But if you read what I posted and thought about it, do you not see the uselessness of the back and forth?

That isn't all a slam on the conservatives, I've also pointed a finger right at the liberals. Did you miss this in your rush to yell troll?

I had thought my post about the sham we all fall into, both sides of the issue, would make a little bit of sense. Perhaps I was harsher on the conservatives since, they're currently in power, and also I have equally fallen for this sham many times.

You can call it trolling if you want. But I see it as calling it out for what this whole mess of arguing is.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> * You'll likely never hear any.
> 
> * oh like the dog that suddenly looks up and yells "squirrel!!", you'll see one say "adscam!"
> 
> * Freedom! Yells one. Justice for all! yells another. Eventually, a fight breaks out. Liar! No YOU are a liar!
> 
> * Sheer stupidity.


In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[4] *or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response* or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.


----------



## iMouse

The Moosonee Record may not get it Tim, but I do.

We need a minority government, BADLY.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[4] *or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response* or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.


I see what you did there. You cherry picked lines out of my post, to create what you wanted to hear.

However, if you read the -whole- post, it puts all of that into perspective. But clearly, that's not what you're interested in. Now who is the troll???

Let's take the lines you highlighted.


* You'll likely never hear any. 

It was an answer to the initial question of, why aren't we hearing outrage from conservatives, given we have a conservative government in the midst of the scandals we voted the previous government out for.

* oh like the dog that suddenly looks up and yells "squirrel!!", you'll see one say "adscam!"

Again, since we have a current conservative government, I was referring to the usual response from many conservative supporters when faced with scandals from their party. This is what is happening, _currently_.

* Freedom! Yells one. Justice for all! yells another. Eventually, a fight breaks out. Liar! No YOU are a liar!

Two swipes, one at conservatives/libertarians, and the other at left leaning supporters. I guess you got excited and missed that clear intention.

* Sheer stupidity.	

Sheer stupidity, on both sides. Since that was the point of my post, which for whatever your reasons are, you totally missed. It seems you only want to see it one way. I just clarified it for you, (instead of screaming LIAR! you misrepresented my wooooorrrrddsss! wail from another...)

Believe what you want, but there's my clarification.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Trolling at its finest.


You think that's trolling? That's more of a stretch than a morning yoga class!

There is enough inflammatory language around here to keep the peace flame burning for eternity!

Enough veiled insults to outfit the bridal industry on both continents!

Enough stubbornness to put mules out of business!

:lmao:

You're a delight SINC. A pure delight. Don't go changin'.


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> The Moosonee Record may not get it Tim, but I do.
> 
> We need a minority government, BADLY.


I have to agree with you on this matter. 

Still a minority government is not enough. We need a Prime Minister and Cabinet that governs by consensus, for the majority of Canadians and just not the base.


----------



## iMouse

And breaking the current power structure is a start in trying to achieve that very thing.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> I have to agree with you on this matter.
> 
> Still a minority government is not enough. We need a Prime Minister and Cabinet that governs by consensus, for the majority of Canadians and just not the base.


When did we ever have one of those?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> When did we ever have one of dose?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


right. Never.


----------



## Macfury

I'm too lazy to find a picture of a unicorn flying amongst rainbows this morning. These lofty prescriptions for Canadian government are howlers!


----------



## BigDL

iMouse said:


> The Moosonee Record may not get it Tim, but I do.
> 
> We need a minority government, BADLY.


See I resisted my natural tendency to go for the pun and get charged as a provocateur.

However I can resist no more:

We've had minority government badly, twice, just before this majority government. 

Seems of late, if you say what you want, you may be bullied for your efforts. The comments can be unwarranted, but there you are. 

If some go for the humour, some shall be charged as taking a backhanded swipe or being intentionally vexing.

Well of course if another takes the backhanded swipe, and it is agreeable to another then that's OK.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> See I resisted my natural tendency to go for the pun and get charged as a provocateur.
> 
> However I can resist no more:
> 
> We've had minority government badly, twice, just before this majority government.
> 
> Seems of late, if you say what you want, you may be bullied for your efforts. The comments can be unwarranted, but there you are.
> 
> If some go for the humour, some shall be charged as taking a backhanded swipe or being intentionally vexing.
> 
> Well of course if another takes the backhanded swipe, and it is agreeable to another then that's OK.


I agree, just minority governments, isn't the real solution. Though it helps. Total control has never ended well, regardless of which party has it. Clear examples in the past few decades.

Some I guess are very happy with, and will defend valiantly the status quo. Despite clear evidence that we're all being taken for a ride.:baby:


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> When did we ever have one of dose?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You probably never heard of it but the Nova Scotia Government led by Progressive Conservative Dr. John Hamm operated in that manner.

Dr. Hamm retired and Rodney MacDonald finished out the term. He governed in the same manner as one Stephen Harper, soon there after Mr. MacDonald was resoundingly thumped by the electorate.

The population elected a majority ND Party government. That party, governed for the first time, in the history of over 250 years of Responsible Government of Nova Scotia.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> You'll likely never hear any. t's the intern's fault, something the liberals made them do, the dog ate their homework, etc etc. oh like the dog that suddenly looks up and yells "squirrel!!", you'll see one say "adscam!"
> 
> Then the liberals get in, everything will be different, (just like the conservatives told their voters...) and the same thing unfolds.
> 
> This whole my party is better stuff has led to us having bad government, it's because we've made excuses for, justified, accepted their, unacceptable behaviour, because it's not the 'other guy', we've fallen for the this mythical 'left vs right' sham the political parties have created to keep us all busy, and our eyes off the ball.
> 
> Freedom! Yells one. Justice for all! yells another. Eventually, a fight breaks out. Liar! No YOU are a liar!
> 
> Sheer stupidity.





SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Trolling at its finest.


Yep a guy you believe is on the other side of the fence puts forth a straightforward argument that you have no answer for. So trot out the trolls, call him names, shout him down, divert, divert, divert but never engage. 

What would the world be without the Barf Limbergers to show the Cons the true path to intelligent debate?


----------



## Macfury

In fact, I'm very happy with the institutional changes made by the Conservatives under this majority government, even though some of their hijinks displease me. My main complaint is that they have not gone far enough.

The greatest spending increases I've seen were during the "government stimulus package" days. That was a *minority government* in which both NDP and Liberals promised to topple the government if it didn't begin distributing large amounts of cash immediately.

Talk of a balanced budget almost becomes meaningless when it merely jacks up tax rates to cover excessive spending.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> You probably never heard of it but the Nova Scotia Government led by Progressive Conservative Dr. John Hamm operated in that manner.
> 
> Dr. Hamm retired and Rodney MacDonald finished out the term. He governed in the same manner as one Stephen Harper, soon there after Mr. MacDonald was resoundingly thumped by the electorate.
> 
> The population elected a majority ND Party government. That party, governed for the first time, in the history of over 250 years of Responsible Government of Nova Scotia.


Didn't the ndp there unveil a balanced budget? 



eMacMan said:


> Yep a guy you believe is on the other side of the fence puts forth a straightforward argument that you have no answer for. So trot out the trolls, call him names, shout him down, divert, divert, divert but never engage.
> 
> What would the world be without the Barf Limbergers to show the Cons the true path to intelligent debate?


I don't think he read my post very carefully. As you saw in his reply, he simply pulled pieces out to construct what he wanted to see.

Yes there's probably a couple more swipes at the conservatives, but there are some at the liberals/ndp too. But then, I also identify myself as part of the problem I mentioned.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> How are comments like that in the least bit constructive and raise the level of discourse?
> 
> Seems like it is just more trolling to me.


Grannie would approve.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> When did we ever have one of those?


That time people were happy with the government.... oh wait.


----------



## groovetube

‘Trains or pipelines,' Doer warns U.S. over Keystone - The Globe and Mail

Soooo, you wana let us put a pipeline through? Or maybe you wanna see more vaporized bodies from the trains eh?

The Canadian's dialogue to the US on the Keystone, gets classier.


----------



## SINC

The story quite correctly points out that other options will be exercised by big oil should the pipeline fail. Mocking such observations shows little understanding of the facts.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> The story quite correctly points out that other options will be exercised by big oil should the pipeline fail. Mocking such observations shows little understanding of the facts.


Are you completely missing the scare tactic there? Really?

Big oil (or the Harper Harper government take your pick...) is clearly 'puttin' it out there' that should there be no pipeline well, there'll continue to be a lot of trains with oil oil on it.

Hint.. hint...

Pretty hard to miss it seems.


----------



## SINC

Not at all. It is you who is missing the fact that oil has been shipped by rail for decades and will only increase without a pipeline. Must you read threats into every situation?

Amazing you can read my posts when you have me on ignore.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The story quite correctly points out that other options will be exercised by big oil should the pipeline fail. Mocking such observations shows little understanding of the facts.


In fact, most of the oil that would be sent through Keystone XL in the U.S, is now being shipped by rail. It's responsible for a massive railway renaissance.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Not at all. It is you who is missing the fact that oil has been shipped by rail for decades and will only increase without a pipeline. Must you read threats into every situation?
> 
> Amazing you can read my posts when you have me on ignore.


I don't have -you- on ignore. That should be obvious.

I'm not missing that oil has been shipped by rail for decades. I've lived near rail lines most of my life, how could I miss the oil tanks on the trains?

I'm not the only one reading this veiled little threat, I picked it up from many different sources. And the insinuation is clear, approve the pipeline or there's going to be a whole lot more of that oil (hint hint) going by rail if you don't!

It really couldn't be any clearer as to what the message is there. Deny if you want, I don't care! :lmao:


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I have to agree with you on this matter.
> 
> Still a minority government is not enough. *We need a Prime Minister and Cabinet that governs by consensus, for the majority of Canadians and just not the base*.


When have we ever had that? All governments and PM's govern according to what the people who voted for them want. Governing by consensus is a pipe dream.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> When have we ever had that? All governments and PM's govern according to what the people who voted for them want. Governing by consensus is a pipe dream.


Not only that, but likely the only consensus that could be achieved on most issues is inaction.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> When have we ever had that? All governments and PM's govern according to what the people who voted for them want. Governing by consensus is a pipe dream.


I don't really disagree, however, I think minority governments are a far better approximation of what we're looking for WRT governing by consensus.

I expect the next federal election will yield another minority; perhaps Conservative, perhaps NDP, or perhaps JT will live up to the hype and win a minority for the Liberals. However, even if it's a minority Conservative government, Harper will retire, and that, I hope will allow the Conservatives to recover from his authoritarian, secretive, ideologically-driven, belligerent style. No minority government can afford to be so openly contemptuous of Parliament and the people of Canada as Harper has been, so I'm eagerly awaiting his defeat.


----------



## Sonal

Technically, Toronto city council, like most municipal governments, governs by consensus..... that has been tremendous effective at doing very little.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Technically, Toronto city council, like most municipal governments, governs by consensus..... that has been tremendous effective at doing very little.


Yes, but BigDL was referring to the federal government that is why he said, "what we need is a Prime Minister and a Cabinet..." etc.


----------



## Macfury

I recall the Ontario NDP government of Bob Rae, in which I disagreed with absolutely every one of his programs and decisions. I took my lumps because my candidate lost, but Rae most certainly extended no olive branch to non-NDP supporters during those dark years.


----------



## BigDL

bryanc said:


> I don't really disagree, however, I think minority governments are a far better approximation of what we're looking for WRT governing by consensus.
> 
> I expect the next federal election will yield another minority; perhaps Conservative, perhaps NDP, or perhaps JT will live up to the hype and win a minority for the Liberals. However, even if it's a minority Conservative government, Harper will retire, and that, I hope will allow the Conservatives to recover from his authoritarian, secretive, ideologically-driven, belligerent style. No minority government can afford to be so openly contemptuous of Parliament and the people of Canada as Harper has been, so I'm eagerly awaiting his defeat.


I do not hold your optimism. The Conservative machine is not going to give up on its ideology, secretiveness nor pandering to the base. The depth of the "bench" on perpetuating the present style is reflected by any current contenders for leadership. 

When we see the lengths a guy like Mr. Wright went to maintain the status quo it is very likely that party is lousy ideological partisans hell bent on perpetuating *OGL's* style. *OGL* is reflecting Conservatives to conservatives.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> ...as Harper has been, so I'm eagerly awaiting his defeat.


Do you think Harper will run again before retiring?


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Yes, but BigDL was referring to the federal government that is why he said, "what we need is a Prime Minister and a Cabinet..." etc.


I understood that. 

I was giving an example of government by consensus that doesn't work well.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I understood that.
> 
> I was giving an example of government by consensus that doesn't work well.


Right. Sorry.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Do you think Harper will run again before retiring?


It's a tough call.

Canadians, in general, get a sense that when someone has been in charge for a while, it's time for a change.... I suspect that regardless of how they might feel about his actual policies, Harper is starting to seem a bit long in the tooth.

On the other hand, I can't see him stepping down next election.... of him, Mulcair and Trudeau, he is by far the most experienced campaigner. Putting a new guy in now introduces too many variables.

Conservative majority seems, at this early stage, unlikely, which means that Harper will be seen as losing some.... which makes for a good time to change things up. Not sure if he will or not then, though--it doesn't seem like he has someone else on the bench ready to go.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I do not hold your optimism. The Conservative machine is not going to give up on its ideology, secretiveness nor pandering to the base. The depth of the "bench" on perpetuating the present style is reflected by any current contenders for leadership.
> 
> When we see the lengths a guy like Mr. Wright went to maintain the status quo it is very likely that party is lousy ideological partisans hell bent on perpetuating *OGL's* style. *OGL* is reflecting Conservatives to conservatives.


I don't think you really have much to go on to say that being that I highly doubt you attend conservative conventions or know who would likely be a front runner in a leadership race as many candidates would not come from Cabinet.

With a new leader would come a completely new PMO and it is PMO that determines the tone. I think your portrayal of Harper "reflecting Conservatives to conservatives", is completely your own anti/anyone but conservative bias and is reflective your own personal political proclivities and has very little basis in fact or likely outcome of a new leader being at the helm.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It's a tough call.


From where I sit, it appears nobody is being groomed as a replacement for Harper--although that can still be achieved in the remaining time.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> From where I sit, it appears nobody is being groomed as a replacement for Harper--although that can still be achieved in the remaining time.


I think he will run but with the outcome being anything less than a majority in 2015 he will resign or be ousted by a leadership review. But I think he is too proud and smart to let an ousting happen.

Also I can't recall when there has ever been a "grooming" of someone as a replacement leader. Well of course that is until JT came on the scene...


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> From where I sit, it appears nobody is being groomed as a replacement for Harper--although that can still be achieved in the remaining time.


Possibly, but I think it's doubtful. Would make for an interesting race though.... three untried leaders all going against each other.

Best bet for the Conservative party is to stick with him, I think. Harper has been vilified for a long time and still managed to come out on top for 3 elections. Granted, there were other circumstances involved, but he is a wily campaigner.


----------



## bryanc

I don't have much to base this on, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong, but my hunch is that Harper will run. If he fails to hold a majority, he'll resign. I think that's his style; he thinks he's got the answers and only his answers are any good, and everyone else should, to borrow SINC's expression, "shut up and conform." So he'll take his ball and go home if he doesn't win.

That being said, it's by no means a foregone conclusion that he'll loose; I just see PC support softening, and the support the NDP gained at the expense of the Liberals in the last election swinging back, which combine to give Trudeau and the Liberals some momentum. As always, it'll depend on how the vote is split, and Canadian voters won't have their desires reflected in the composition of the House or the Senate.


----------



## Sonal

bryanc said:


> That being said, it's by no means a foregone conclusion that he'll loose; I just see PC support softening, and the support the NDP gained at the expense of the Liberals in the last election swinging back, which combine to give Trudeau and the Liberals some momentum. As always, it'll depend on how the vote is split, and Canadian voters won't have their desires reflected in the composition of the House or the Senate.


No, I see it as unlikely that he will lose. Most likely, I think there will be a Conservative minority.

But going from majority to minority may make for a reason for either Harper to step down, or be ousted. And... well it's hard to say without candidates at the ready... but I have a hard time envisioning a Conservative candidate that can manage the party as well as he has.


----------



## Macfury

I agree with bryanc that the NDP support will return to the Liberals--and that's something I believe will be better for Canada overall. Although it would have been impossible to maintain the tremendous goodwill generated by Layton, I believe Mulcair has squandered all of the advantages that were handed to him.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> No, I see it as unlikely that he will lose. Most likely, I think there will be a Conservative minority.
> 
> But going from majority to minority may make for a reason for either Harper to step down, or be ousted. And... well it's hard to say without candidates at the ready... but I have a hard time envisioning a Conservative candidate that can manage the party as well as he has.


Yep. Harper has campaign experience behind him and JT doesn't, I don't see him winning the 2015 election. A conservative minority is the most likely outcome, which I don't see as a bad thing really.


----------



## BigDL

If a week in politics is a long time then 2 years in politics must be an eternity. 

The only constant is the Conservative Base is well identified, and well motivated to action and participation. However this base is finite and in the main concentrated in pockets. 

The next election citizens will be wary of voter suppression techniques. A call soliciting information may prompt wariness as well as annoyance in stead of just annoyance as in the past.

A technique of moving some of the concentrated well motivated electors from a Riding with an easy win for their base, to another nearby Riding with lower concentrations of the team's base may receive more scrutiny during the next election with regard to voter eligibility. 

The "luck" of the vote splits falling in the favour of the Conservatives may be a little harder to come by next time. We shall see.


----------



## bryanc

Sonal said:


> No, I see it as unlikely that he will lose.


I should clarify that I didn't mean I expect to see Harper loose his seat; I doubt there's a safer conservative seat in the country. Just that I see a reasonable chance of him loosing his majority.

And even if he's still the PM, I think loosing his majority will precipitate his resignation.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> Do you think Harper will run again before retiring?


No, if he has his Ambassadorship all sown-up.


----------



## screature

Brilliant Journalism...

RCMP’s Senate investigation includes questions for CTV reporter



> In the hunt for evidence about Sen. Mike Duffy, Nigel Wright and a backroom deal struck in the Prime Minister’s Office to repay Duffy’s expenses, the RCMP has repeatedly tried to glean information from a senior television journalist.
> 
> CTV Ottawa bureau chief Robert Fife’s name appears in a court document filed by the RCMP in June. In it, the lead investigator on the Duffy file, Cpl. Greg Horton, outlines how he contacted Fife on May 28 “to confirm the accuracy of his reporting” that there was some form of written agreement between Duffy and Wright. Fife had reported such an agreement existed, citing unnamed sources.
> 
> According to the court document, *Fife told Horton that “it was his understanding that there is a written letter of understanding.”* Horton wrote that* Fife said “he has not been able to verify that, does not know where it is, and has not seen it.”*...


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Brilliant Journalism...
> 
> RCMP’s Senate investigation includes questions for CTV reporter


Without such an agreement I believe that $90,000 would be called a gift and Mr. Duffy would have to pay income tax and probably Provincial tax on all or most of it. 

If he could not repay $90,000 I am wondering where he will come up with the $40,000 or so he will owe in taxes?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Without such an agreement I believe that $90,000 would be called a gift and Mr. Duffy would have to pay income tax and probably Provincial tax on all or most of it.
> 
> If he could not repay $90,000 I am wondering where he will come up with the $40,000 or so he will owe in taxes?


That really is beside the point. 

Fife reported on something that he doesn't even know whether or not it exists... 

That pretty much ranks up there with reporting on "eye witness" accounts of seeing Bigfoot.

Again:



> Fife said “he has not been able to verify that, does not know where it is, and has not seen it.”...


----------



## groovetube

and there is this:


> That alleged email is from Feb. 20 and reportedly outlines how Wright agreed he would give Duffy about $90,000, and in exchange a Senate committee would go easy on the senator when it wrote its final report on his inappropriate expense claims. *CTV didn’t provide the RCMP with a copy of the email, apparently in order to protect Fife’s sources.*


and...


> “To me, that’s the right answer. It’s not the media’s job to do the police’s job for them,” said Chris Waddell, director of the journalism school at Carleton University in Ottawa.
> 
> “The media are very cautious of sharing information with the police,” Waddell said. “You don’t want to be seen as agents of the police.”


There's more to that news bit.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> and there is this:
> 
> 
> and...
> 
> 
> There's more to that news bit.


It doesn't change the fact that he reported on pure here-say. That's great journalism coming from a bureau chief.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> That really is beside the point.
> 
> Fife reported on something that he doesn't even know whether or not it exists...
> 
> That pretty much ranks up there with reporting on "eye witness" accounts of seeing Bigfoot.
> 
> Again:


Not really beside the point as without such an agreement Duffy would be liable for taxes. The fact that Wright had to give him the money is a clear indicator that Duffy would also be unable to pay those taxes. Therefore there was a very solid CYA reasoning for such a loan agreement to have been in place. 

While I often question the ethical outlook of politicians, Indeed I think the very nature of the job attracts psychopaths, I do not for a minute believe they are complete idiots.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Not really beside the point as without such an agreement Duffy would be liable for taxes. The fact that Wright had to give him the money is a clear indicator that Duffy would also be unable to pay those taxes. Therefore there was a very solid CYA reasoning for such a loan agreement to have been in place.
> 
> While I often question the ethical outlook of politicians, Indeed I think the very nature of the job attracts psychopaths, I do not for a minute believe they are complete idiots.


It is beside the point regarding the article I was talking about and how Fife reported on here-say. Get with the program eMacMan.

The story is not about what the deal meant but whether or not it even exists and Fife cannot even say for sure that it does. Geesh.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Not really beside the point as without such an agreement Duffy would be liable for taxes.


I am wondering how you figure there are gift taxes in Canada? If I won the lottery and gave you a million bucks, you would pay no tax. Why is Duffy responsible for taxes on a gift? Just asking.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> I am wondering how you figure there are gift taxes in Canada? If I won the lottery and gave you a million bucks, you would pay no tax. Why is Duffy responsible for taxes on a gift? Just asking.


You are right. I thought because transferring property triggered capital gains, there was also gift taxes. I was wrong.

With that in mind, I think if I were to open a B&B I would offer one night free but make it quite clear that cash gifts would be very welcome. A small business with no bookkeeping or tax headaches, that has to be the way to go.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It doesn't change the fact that he reported on pure here-say. That's great journalism coming from a bureau chief.


It may not have been 'hearsay'. How do you know it was?

He's protecting his sources and not giving it up as any journalist does.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It may not have been 'hearsay'. How do you know it was?
> 
> He's protecting his sources and not giving it up as any journalist does.


Because Fife said:



> According to the court document, Fife told Horton that “it was his understanding that there is a written letter of understanding.” Horton wrote that *Fife said “he has not been able to verify that, does not know where it is, and has not seen it.”*...


That definitely makes it heresay as he did not see it himself. Cut and dry that is what it is called within the law.

hear·say (hîrs)
n.
1. *Unverified information heard or received from another*; rumor.
2. Law Evidence *based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge* of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Because Fife said:
> 
> 
> 
> That definitely makes it heresay as he did not see it himself. Cut and dry that is what it is called within the law.
> 
> hear·say (hîrs)
> n.
> 1. *Unverified information heard or received from another*; rumor.
> 2. Law Evidence *based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge* of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


But isn't that something journalists get all the time? Information from sources they protect, and will deny access to if asked? This is journalism, not the court of law...

You called this whole affair as much ado about nothing very early into this whole thing, and I think you're jumping gun again here. I don't know how this will play out, but I'm going to wait and see what comes of this.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Because Fife said:
> 
> 
> 
> That definitely makes it heresay as he did not see it himself. Cut and dry that is what it is called within the law.
> 
> hear·say (hîrs)
> n.
> 1. *Unverified information heard or received from another*; rumor.
> 2. Law Evidence *based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge* of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


Yes, this is obviously a different case from protecting one's sources. This is simply stating that the sources don't exist.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *But isn't that something journalists get all the time? Information from sources they protect, and will deny access to if asked?* This is journalism, not the court of law...
> 
> You called this whole affair as much ado about nothing very early into this whole thing, and I think you're jumping gun again here. I don't know how this will play out, but I'm going to wait and see what comes of this.


They deny access to their sources, not they have never seen the "evidence" that they are reporting on... that is heresay and shoddy journalism.

Where did Fife think this would end up if not potentially in a court of law? He should have asked to see the evidence before writing his story and not go on just word of mouth heresay.

"Sources say" is the most lame ass development in journalism that has been repeated over and over. A good investigative journalist gets to see the evidence and know that he/she is reporting on facts before they write their story.

It may be that such an agreement exists but Fife ran the story without knowing it was a fact. That's just plain lazy and bad journalism and it is an epidemic these days.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> They deny access to their sources, not they have never seen the "evidence" that they are reporting on... that is heresay and shoddy journalism.
> 
> Where did Fife think this would end up if not potentially in a court of law? He should have asked to see the evidence before writing his story and not go on just word of mouth heresay.
> 
> "Sources say" is the most lame ass development in journalism that has been repeated over and over. A good investigative journalist gets to see the evidence and know that he/she is reporting on facts before they write their story.
> 
> It may be that such an agreement exists but Fife ran the story without knowing it was a fact. That's just plain lazy and bad journalism and it is an epidemic these days.


I don't know, I'm not going to be so quick to judge this one quite yet.

But there is indeed a lot of examples of journalists and politicians who make quick accusations publicly without any evidence.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> They deny access to their sources, not they have never seen the "evidence" that they are reporting on... that is heresay and shoddy journalism.
> 
> Where did Fife think this would end up if not potentially in a court of law? He should have asked to see the evidence before writing his story and not go on just word of mouth heresay.
> 
> "Sources say" is the most lame ass development in journalism that has been repeated over and over. A good investigative journalist gets to see the evidence and know that he/she is reporting on facts before they write their story.
> 
> It may be that such an agreement exists but Fife ran the story without knowing it was a fact. That's just plain lazy and bad journalism and it is an epidemic these days.


Not sure how relevant this is except as a diversion. I really can't see how it matters whether the money was a gift or a loan. Bottom line someone in the PMOs office tried to bail out Duffy and instead of making things better for the PM made them worse.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Not sure how relevant this is except as a diversion. I really can't see how it matters whether the money was a gift or a loan. Bottom line someone in the PMOs office tried to bail out Duffy and instead of making things better for the PM made them worse.


It's not a diversion from bad journalism.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It's not a diversion from bad journalism.


Ah but the intent was to divert attention from the main story, which was Wright being wrong and making the Duffy disaster worse. So it is indeed a diversion.

As to bad journalism pack any Lamestream outlet on any story and I am sure you can point out at least one weakness. Pick Faux News and you would have a great deal of difficulty pinpointing any example of good journalism.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Ah but the intent was to divert attention from the main story, which was Wright being wrong and making the Duffy disaster worse. So it is indeed a diversion.
> 
> As to bad journalism pack any Lamestream outlet on any story and I am sure you can point out at least one weakness. Pick Faux News and you would have a great deal of difficulty pinpointing any example of good journalism.


For god sake eMacMan there was no intent to divert from anything. It was about linking to a story that was in the news today and discussing it. That's it that's all.

Some times a banana is just a banana, you don't have to try and make it seem like it looks like something else every time. 

Get over it. Geesh.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> It's not a diversion from bad journalism.


it's actually pretty standard journalism. News isn't a court of law, isn't held to the same standards, and reporting that "sources say" isn't the least bit "wrong" or "bad journalism".

it's common practice.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it's actually pretty standard journalism. News isn't a court of law, isn't held to the same standards, and reporting that "sources say" isn't the least bit "wrong" or "bad journalism".
> 
> it's common practice.


"Sources say" isn't a carte blanche for writing whatever you please.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> "Sources say" isn't a carte blanche for writing whatever you please.


no, but is that what happened here?

he was the reporter who broke that Wright cut a $90,000 check for Duffy. Did he make that up? His sources seemed to be bang on for that tidbit of information.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> I am wondering how you figure there are gift taxes in Canada? If I won the lottery and gave you a million bucks, you would pay no tax. Why is Duffy responsible for taxes on a gift? Just asking.


It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that if you win the lottery & want to give someone a million bucks, that million has to come directly from Lottery HQ in order to be tax free. Otherwise, your gift counts as revenue & is taxable.


----------



## Sonal

Some clarity on 'gift tax'.
TaxTips.ca - Gifts and inheritances - are they taxable?

Note, however, that gifts between employers and employees are treated differently than gifts between, say, family members. There's a link within the link above, but summarizing quickly: if you give a gift that is not for a special occasion, it's likely considered taxable income. (Make sense.... you don't want an unscrupulous employer to pay employees in untaxed 'gifts' instead of taxable income.)

Whether the PMO's office and the Senate have an employment relationship as far as CRA's tax policies are concerned, is a different story.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that if you win the lottery & want to give someone a million bucks, that million has to come directly from Lottery HQ in order to be tax free. Otherwise, your gift counts as revenue & is taxable.


Nope. Lottery pays you, you give gift. Non taxable.


----------



## iMouse

Leave no stone unturned.

The Sheriff of Nottingham would be pleased.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> "Sources say" isn't a carte blanche for writing whatever you please.


This is a serious problem for many of today's reporters. It's not just political, it's that race to be first. They don't take the time to vet their sources, and actually check to see if what they're being told is actually true. It's closer to Perez Hilton than it is to Woodward and Bernstein.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it's actually pretty standard journalism. News isn't a court of law, isn't held to the same standards, and reporting that "sources say" isn't the least bit "wrong" or "bad journalism".
> 
> it's common practice.


Just because it has become common practice doe not mean it isn't bad journalism. Journalism is worse now than it has ever been.


----------



## groovetube

Journalism may be not it once was, but Fife was the one who broke this story about the whole senate scandal stuff in the first place.

Sources have always been protected, and journalists aren't about doing the cop's job. I'm not really going to defend Fife really because I have no idea what he did or didn't see or know at this point.

Too early to start calling anything at the moment. But I'm sure more than enough people would like to see Fife discredited and quick.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Journalism may be not it once was, but Fife was the one who broke this story about the whole senate scandal stuff in the first place.
> 
> Sources have always been protected, and journalists aren't about doing the cop's job. I'm not really going to defend Fife really because I have no idea what he did or didn't see or know at this point.
> 
> Too early to start calling anything at them moment.* But I'm sure more than enough people would like to see Fife discredited* and quick.


Fife has shown himself to be a partisan hack on several occasions already... this is just par for the course for him. 

This time he got lucky and something stuck, but it doesn't mean that his methods are honourable or constitute good journalism.

Every dog has its day.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Fife has shown himself to be a partisan hack on several occasions already... this is just par for the course for him.
> 
> This time he got lucky and something stuck, but it doesn't mean that his methods are honourable or constitute good journalism.
> 
> Every dog has its day.


I'm sure the same can be said for many journalists, it just depends on whether or not they go after who you want them to  Nothing new really.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> This is a serious problem for many of today's reporters. It's not just political, it's that race to be first. They don't take the time to vet their sources, and actually check to see if what they're being told is actually true. It's closer to Perez Hilton than it is to Woodward and Bernstein.


you do understand that Woodward and Bernstein needed Deep Throat - an anonymous source - to break Watergate, right?

what exactly did Fife do wrong here? not tell the RCMP his source? that's standard practice for all journalists. Was his story about Wright cutting $90,000 for Duffy wrong? Nope. Did he misrepresent that he specifically saw a letter of understanding between Wright & Duffy? No, the article specifically said according to their source one exists.

this is how stories are broke. this is how journalism works. every detail may not be correct, but without investigative journalists scandals like watergate, and this senate finance fiasco simply wouldn't make the light of day.

don't be sore that your "team" got caught. a free and belligerent press is a good thing for democracy


----------



## iMouse

It's very old, but none the less true, it all depends on whose ox is being gored.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> you do understand that Woodward and Bernstein needed Deep Throat - an anonymous source - to break Watergate, right?


That's my point. They had the source, but they didn't just report what he said. They actually investigated. That's the polar opposite to Fife who admits that he never even saw the documents in question, but ran the story anyway.


----------



## i-rui

he ran the story specifically citing his source on the written agreement. He never misrepresented that. 

how do you know he didn't investigate it any further? Most likely a very limited amount of people would know about any such letter. There's only so much a reporter can check, and if he deems his source a reliable one then it's reasonable to run the story. His source was obviously correct about the Wright payment


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> he ran the story specifically citing his source on the written agreement. He never misrepresented that.


He never even saw the agreement though, that makes it gossip, not news. Much of what he reported is in dispute, even the RCMP want to know where Fife got his info from.


----------



## FeXL

iMouse said:


> Leave no stone unturned.
> 
> The Sheriff of Nottingham would be pleased.


How cruel & frightening the big, bad, scary world must seem...


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> He never even saw the agreement though, that makes it gossip, not news.


again, this is standard practise. the idea that every reporter has to physically see or handle a news item to publish it is ludicrous. Reporters have sources (which they vet), and if the source is reliable they often publish information passed on by them.



heavyall said:


> Much of what he reported is in dispute,


no, not really. The only thing in dispute is if there was a written agreement (which there may or may not. Perhaps it was even destroyed by both parties now that the **** has hit the fan?). Everything else reported seems to have been bang on.




heavyall said:


> even the RCMP want to know where Fife got his info from.


they want to know his source because they are investigating potentially criminal activity by the conservative party... not because Fife is in some sort of trouble.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> they want to know his source because they are investigating potentially criminal activity by the conservative party... not because Fife is in some sort of trouble.


They want to know his source, because they can't find evidence to support his claim.


----------



## i-rui

well, even the investigating RCMP officer believes the claim 



> In the court documents, RCMP Corporal Greg Horton said he believes Mr. Duffy and Mr. Wright had an agreement, “constituting an offence of frauds on the government,” that would see the criticisms contained in the Senate probe softened as long as the improperly claimed expenses were repaid.


if it was actually written down and is still in existence is another matter, so yes evidence should be examined by the RCMP (as is their responsibility) and Fife will keep his sources confidential (as is his responsibility).

This is pretty standard stuff. It's not the first time the press and law enforcement have butt heads over a source, and i imagine it won't be the last...

I can't imagine anyone actually trying to make an issue about it, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how far supporters will go to rationalize the deeds of their party. Even in this thread, I'm pretty sure a few conservative supporters were defending Duffy & Wright when the story broke, so this new round of blaming the media for exposing the scandal is just the next step. 

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> again, this is standard practise. the idea that every reporter has to physically see or handle a news item to publish it is ludicrous. Reporters have sources (which they vet), and if the source is reliable they often publish information passed on by them.


It isn't "standard practise." While they don't have to see the document, many news outlets require independent verification of material supplied by "unnamed sources"--that is, more than one person needs to verify its existence. While the rules vary from news outlet to outlet, the rules over such reporting have grown tighter, not more lax. _USA Today_, for example, allows no information provided by unnamed sources to be published.

In the case of a sole unnamed source _and _a report whose existence cannot be verified, the reporter has simple become lazy.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I]USA Today[/I], for example, allows no information provided by unnamed sources to be published.


that's not true. the founding editor doesn't approve of anonymous sources, but they still use them in certain cases. a google search says it's decreased but they still publish an average of one story per day that quotes an unnamed source.



Macfury said:


> In the case of a sole unnamed source _and _a report whose existence cannot be verified, the reporter has simple become lazy.


once again, lets revisit the Fife story. He was correct about Wright cutting a cheque for Duffy, and he was right about the senate report being revised to go easier on Duffy. These are facts that have been verified by the RCMP.

The only thing in question is if there is some written agreement in existence. While i can see the legal need of the agreement for an ironclad case against the players, for the court of public opinion it's not necessary. Most people can easily connect the dots. 

Also, assuming the same source was responsible for informing Fife of the other details, I'd say he seems very reliable.


----------



## BigDL

What's with this circle dance that the resident conservatives are doing here.

You can't get the milk out of the tea once it has been poured. 

Why castigate Robert Fife, he didn't do anything bad. He is not under Police investigation.

Three former Conservative Senators and a former Liberal Senator are under RCM Police investigation. So are PMO staff and former PMO staffers.

Do not blame the media or try to scapegoat the media. 

Hey conservatives the fault lies with *OGL* his appointments in the PMO and three of his appointments to the Senate.


----------



## groovetube

It's fine if it's a liberal but you see the problem here, is this thing has hit right to the heart of the PMO's office. This is serious because it really puts Harper in a bad light on this helpin' a pal out who was bilking taxpayers for massive sums of money, and helping him escape much in the way of consequences legally. For a party with supporters that screamed with blind rage about sending all of the liberals to jail,(what was Rob Ford's quote about voting for a liberal is like giving a bank robber a gun or something?) well this makes a true mockery of that doesn't it.

So that's why suddenly we hear all kinds of incorrect thing being tossed to discredit not only Fife, but any journals who dares speak out against the ruling government. (I haven't seen any leftie posters screaming "liar!' which may show which has more class...)


----------



## bryanc

BigDL said:


> Why castigate Robert Fife, he didn't do anything bad. He is not under Police investigation.


He did do something bad... he exposed corruption in OGL's administration; that's as bad as it gets! Off with his head!

There are a few here who are so partisan that they'll gladly shoot any messenger, and twist themselves into knots trying to justify muzzling journalists, scientists, whistle-blowers, back-benchers who leave the party, or any other source of information that is not exactly what OGL wants us to hear because... er... Freedom!


----------



## groovetube

BTW just read the results of the Ontario byelections in 5 ridings.

Looks our pal Timmy performed pretty poorly, once again. One seat with a star candidate which was a shoo in.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> that's not true. the founding editor doesn't approve of anonymous sources, but they still use them in certain cases. a google search says it's decreased but they still publish an average of one story per day that quotes an unnamed source.


Under certain circumstances, the source can be unnamed in the article, but must be known to the editor.



> 1. The identity of an unnamed source must be shared with and approved by a managing editor prior to publication. *The managing editor must be confident that the information presented to the reader is accurate, not just that someone said it*. *This usually will require confirmation from a second source or from documents. *When a single confidential source is cited without further support in the story, the editor must be confident that information presented is based on first-hand knowledge and is authoritative.


USA TODAY Media Kit :: Press Room :: Professional Guidelines :: Best Practices & Sourcing



> The same principles apply to the use of confidential documents. It is not enough to know and sign off on the identity of the source of the documents. The managing editor must be satisfied that the documents are authentic and trustworthy and the chain of custody of the documents can be traced to their originators.


Again, this is not to say that laziness has been outlawed--only that this sort of lazy reporting is not standard practice.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> he ran the story specifically citing his source on the written agreement. He never misrepresented that.
> 
> how do you know he didn't investigate it any further? Most likely a very limited amount of people would know about any such letter. There's only so much a reporter can check, and if he deems his source a reliable one then it's reasonable to run the story. *His source was obviously correct about the Wright payment*


Fife never cited his source of a written agreement that's all he said was sources say.

It isn't about the payment it is about a written agreement which still has not been proven to exist...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *again, this is standard practise. the idea that every reporter has to physically see or handle a news item to publish it is ludicrous. *Reporters have sources (which they vet), and if the source is reliable they often publish information passed on by them.
> 
> no, not really. The only thing in dispute is if there was a written agreement (which there may or may not. Perhaps it was even destroyed by both parties now that the **** has hit the fan?). Everything else reported seems to have been bang on.
> 
> they want to know his source because they are investigating potentially criminal activity by the conservative party... not because Fife is in some sort of trouble.


Absolutely untrue. Before this "modern" development of "sources say" it used to be that reporters got documents (copies) in brown envelopes proving evidence. 

You can twist all you want trying to portray that this is "standard practice", which it has become, but it doesn't make it right or good journalism. There used to a thing called journalistic ethics, that has gone the way of the Dodo it seems but what is surprising is that some people are so willing to have that all tossed out the window. But then again, I have to say that it is not at all surprising coming from the Wikileaks fan club.

So in your world heresay is all that is required to write a story and potential ruin people's lives all based on unverified potentially false witness. Yah that is journalism at its finest.


----------



## groovetube

Again, you're calling this long before more is known. All we have is something an RCMP officer said.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Again, you're calling this long before more is known. All we have is something an RCMP officer said.


And it's still a very feeble attempt to divert attention from the known facts. Duffy a Harpo appointee, got greedy and screwed up. Wright tried to bail him out, thereby involving the PMO and making things worse for King Harpo.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *And it's still a very feeble attempt to divert attention* from the known facts. Duffy a Harpo appointee, got greedy and screwed up. Wright tried to bail him out, thereby involving the PMO and making things worse for King Harpo.


Like I sad eMacMan, get over it. It is not an attempt to divert from anything it is simply a different subject (i.e. ethical journalism) within the context of the already well known story. Sorry you can't seem to understand that or is this just your way of trying to divert from the issue of ethical journalism.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Under certain circumstances, the source can be unnamed in the article, but must be known to the editor.


And how are you certain this wasn't the case with CTV?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> And how are you certain this wasn't the case with CTV?


Fife is the Bureau Chief.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Absolutely untrue. Before this "modern" development of "sources say" it used to be that reporters got documents (copies) in brown envelopes proving evidence.
> 
> You can twist all you want trying to portray that this is "standard practice", which it has become, but it doesn't make it right or good journalism. There used to a thing called journalistic ethics, that has gone the way of the Dodo it seems but what is surprising is that some people are so willing to have that all tossed out the window. But then again, I have to say that it is not at all surprising coming from the Wikileaks fan club.
> 
> So in your world heresay is all that is required to write a story and potential ruin people's lives all based on unverified potentially false witness. Yah that is journalism at its finest.


In fact, a survey of "unnamed sources" articles shows that the practice is decreasing in popularity, as more and more news outlets are embarrassed by reporters who actually had nothing.

Longitudinal review finds decline in unnamed source use, rise in transparency | Matt J. Duffy - Academia.edu


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> In fact, a survey of "unnamed sources" articles shows that the practice is decreasing in popularity, as more and more news outlets are embarrassed by reporters who actually had nothing.
> 
> Longitudinal review finds decline in unnamed source use, rise in transparency | Matt J. Duffy - Academia.edu


Interesting, but at least in this study the information that the unnamed sources provided was supposed to be verified, something Fife didn't even do.

It seems that Fife wants to return to the "Golden Age" of journalism the 60' and 70's... too bad he didn't go back another decade or two when there was such a thing as ethical journalism.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> And it's still a very feeble attempt to divert attention from the known facts. Duffy a Harpo appointee, got greedy and screwed up. Wright tried to bail him out, thereby involving the PMO and making things worse for King Harpo.


I agree. People are assuming quite a bit here based off of one comment by an RCMP officer.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Interesting, but at least in this study the information that the unnamed sources provided was supposed to be verified, something Fife didn't even do.
> 
> It seems that Fife wants to return to the "Golden Age" of journalism the 60' and 70's... too bad he didn't go back another decade or two when there was such a thing as ethical journalism.


Still it seems to me the RCMP can easily determine if there was indeed such an eMail even if both parties deleted them. Simply request CSIS to hand over their copies of Duffy's and Wright's eMails for the approximate dates. If that is a no-go, a similar request of the NSA south of the border should do the trick.

Clearly the PM being embarrassed should make this a matter of national security and overide all secrecy claims.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Fife is the Bureau Chief.


and he is the executive producer of Power Play, so it seems that he would qualify as an "editor" by USA Today's standards and able to run the story.



screature said:


> Interesting, but at least in this study the information that the unnamed sources provided was supposed to be verified, something Fife didn't even do.


how do you know Fife didn't verify his source? none of us (besides Fife and perhaps a few of his associates) even know who the source is. Your speculating on how much or little he researched the story.

edit - sorry, i thought you were referring to who Fife's source was, and not to the existence of the agreement. I don't think it would realistically be possible to verify the written agreement if only a handful of people were privy to it. I think maybe 5 (or less) people would have known. 

let's review (again) what his story broke.

- that a $90,000 cheque was cut to Duffy from Wright - correct
- that there is a written agreement saying that Duffy will repay his Senate expenses and in return the Senate report will go easy on him - up for dispute.
- the Senate Report was revised, and criticism of Duffy was removed - correct.

Seems his journalism was correct on the most important points.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> and he is the executive producer of Power Play, so it seems that he would qualify as an "editor" by USA Today's standards and able to run the story.
> 
> 
> 
> how do you know Fife didn't verify his source? none of us (besides Fife and perhaps a few of his associates) even know who the source is. Your speculating on how much or little he researched the story.
> 
> let's review (again) what his story broke.
> 
> - that a $90,000 cheque was cut to Duffy from Wright - correct
> - that there is a written agreement saying that Duffy will repay his Senate expenses and in return the Senate report will go easy on him - up for dispute.
> - the Senate Report was revised, and criticism of Duffy was removed - correct.
> 
> Seems his journalism was correct on the most important points.


There you go again trying to ruin a perfectly good "kill the messenger" style diversion by including facts.

The real issue here is that King Harpo pays Fife's salary and does not appreciate Fife biting the hand that feeds him. He has posted his talking point and will have the head of any minion that should wander into the realm of the facts.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I agree. People are assuming quite a bit here based off of one comment by an RCMP officer.


It has nothing to do with the comments of an RCMP officer it has to do with what Fife told him and has been submitted in court filings.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> and he is the executive producer of Power Play, so it seems that he would qualify as an "editor" by USA Today's standards and able to run the story.
> 
> *how do you know Fife didn't verify his source? none of us (besides Fife and perhaps a few of his associates) even know who the source is. Your speculating on how much or little he researched the story.*
> 
> edit - sorry, i thought you were referring to who Fife's source was, and not to the existence of the agreement. I don't think it would realistically be possible to verify the written agreement if only a handful of people were privy to it. I think maybe 5 (or less) people would have known.
> 
> let's review (again) what his story broke.
> 
> - that a $90,000 cheque was cut to Duffy from Wright - correct
> - that there is a written agreement saying that Duffy will repay his Senate expenses and in return the Senate report will go easy on him - up for dispute.
> - the Senate Report was revised, and criticism of Duffy was removed - correct.
> 
> Seems his journalism was correct on the most important points.


I know you are late to the party but Fife told the RCMP he didn't verify that the agreement actually existed.



> In the hunt for evidence about Sen. Mike Duffy, Nigel Wright and a backroom deal struck in the Prime Minister’s Office to repay Duffy’s expenses, the RCMP has repeatedly tried to glean information from a senior television journalist.
> 
> CTV Ottawa bureau chief Robert Fife’s name appears in a court document filed by the RCMP in June. In it, the lead investigator on the Duffy file, Cpl. Greg Horton, outlines how he contacted Fife on May 28 “to confirm the accuracy of his reporting” that there was some form of written agreement between Duffy and Wright. Fife had reported such an agreement existed, citing unnamed sources.
> 
> According to the court document, *Fife told Horton that “it was his understanding that there is a written letter of understanding.”* Horton wrote that* Fife said “he has not been able to verify that, does not know where it is, and has not seen it.”*...


So heresay.

Fife got lucky that finally one of his muck racking articles finally hit pay dirt. He has been slinging unsubstantiated crap for years. You make enough accusations and you are bound to get lucky sooner or later. 

He is a hack and his most recent admission proves it.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> And it's still a very feeble attempt to divert attention from the known facts. Duffy a Harpo appointee, got greedy and screwed up. Wright tried to bail him out, thereby involving the PMO and making things worse for King Harpo.


If all these attempts to divert attention from the political problems for *OGL*, then why not take the discussion of journalistic integrity out of the "Canadian Political Thread?"

You know where Canadian politics are discussed. Since the conservative element here at Eh Mac are so concerned about journalistic and media integrity I have started such a thread.

See Right here


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Seems his journalism was correct on the most important points.


That's great. However, his due diligence over a written agreement is still lacking.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> I know you are late to the party but Fife told the RCMP he didn't verify that the agreement actually existed.


no, not late to the party, just misread what you wrote (latter corrected with an edit) i thought you were saying he didn't verify who his source was, not that there is a specific written agreement. IMO it would be near impossible to verify the agreement if only 3-5 people were privy to the actual document.



screature said:


> Fife got lucky that finally one of his muck racking articles finally hit pay dirt. He has been slinging unsubstantiated crap for years. You make enough accusations and you are bound to get lucky sooner or later.
> 
> He is a hack and his most recent admission proves it.


well thank god for this Hack, because without his work Canadians would still be unaware of a serious scandal that had it's very origin in the PMO.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> IMO it would be near impossible to verify the agreement if only 3-5 people were privy to the actual document.


Then this is hearsay.


----------



## eMacMan

It does strike me that trying to kill the messenger without seeing his message repeated may be akin to jousting with windmills.

Seriously attack the guy for not seeing an agreement and hope that no-one asks or recalls what the agreement was? 

Without the attacks on Fife, the entire Duffy, Wright, Senate committee arrangement would have long since been relegated to the back burner and more or less forgotten.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> no, not late to the party, just misread what you wrote (latter corrected with an edit) i thought you were saying he didn't verify who his source was, not that there is a specific written agreement. *IMO it would be near impossible to verify the agreement if only 3-5 people were privy to the actual document.*
> 
> well thank god for this Hack, because without his work Canadians would still be unaware of a serious scandal that had it's very origin in the PMO.


How do you figure that when his unnamed source apparently had access to it, if it truly exists, why couldn't a copy be provided to Fife.

We have seen actual copies of leaked e-mails in the media by ethical journalists quite frequently.

Seems the ends justify the means in your books, but again not surprising considering your support for the likes of Wikileaks, but at least with Wikileaks there are actual verified documents referred to if even if they have been obtained illegally.

I am in no way trying to justify the Wright-Duffy deal, just point out that by his own admission Fife uses less than ethical means to "break" his stories, many of which in the past have been proven to be false.

This time he was just a lucky hack.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Then this is hearsay.


which is why his story specifically cited a "source", and didn't misrepresent that CTV had seen the document.

Again, news outlets are not courtrooms. If they feel a source is reliable and a news item's publication is in the public good then they'll publish/air it.



screature said:


> How do you figure that when his unnamed source apparently had access to it, if it truly exists, why couldn't a copy be provided to Fife.


we don't know if his source had access to it. having knowledge of something is very different than having access to it. 

you seem to be doing an awful lot of conjecture and speculation about Fife's work & journalistic ethics. We don't know who his source is or what his source told him. We don't know what lengths he went to attempt to verify what his source told him.

At this point all we really know is that he was correct about the $90,000 cheque from Wright to Duffy, and that the Senate report was edited to reflect better on Duffy.

The existence of a written agreement is still up for debate. It may or may not exist. I think most Canadians are happy this scandal has been exposed and will judge his journalistic integrity based on that.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> which is why his story specifically cited a "source", and didn't misrepresent that CTV had seen the document.
> 
> Again, news outlets are not courtrooms. If they feel a source is reliable and a news item's publication is in the public good then they'll publish/air it.
> 
> 
> 
> we don't know if his source had access to it. having knowledge of something is very different than having access to it.
> 
> you seem to be doing an awful lot of conjecture and speculation about Fife's work & journalistic ethics. We don't know who his source is or what his source told him. We don't know what lengths he went to attempt to verify what his source told him.
> 
> At this point all we really know is that he was correct about the $90,000 cheque from Wright to Duffy, and that the Senate report was edited to reflect better on Duffy.
> 
> The existence of a written agreement is still up for debate. It may or may not exist. *I think most Canadians are happy this scandal has been exposed and will judge his journalistic integrity based on that*.


I think most Canadians don't give rats ass about the scandal and will have forgotten about it come the next election.

But that is neither here nor there when it comes to the issue of shoddy journalism.

I would think by now that it is pretty clear I think Fife is a hack and he was a hack before the Wright-Duffy affair. It was just good fun to see that an RCMP officer made him admit to that fact.


----------



## Sonal

I think most Canadian will remember the senate scandal for far longer than they remember what any particular journalist did or didn't do....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I think most Canadian will remember the senate scandal for far longer than they remember what any particular journalist did or didn't do....


Depends what Kim Kardashian is up to, or who is a finalist on _So You Think You Can Dance Canada?_


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I think most Canadian will remember the senate scandal for far longer than they remember what any particular journalist did or didn't do....


I'm not so sure about that... Duffy was journalist wasn't he? 

Kinda speaks to the ethics of journalists, perceived or real. 

Politicians and journalists deserve each other... often they are two peas in the same pod these days.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Depends what Kim Kardashian is up to, or who is a finalist on _So You Think You Can Dance Canada?_


I said longer. I didn't say indefinitely.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I said longer. I didn't say indefinitely.


I would say I agree with you--longer, but not too long.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I think most Canadian will remember the senate scandal for far longer than they remember what any particular journalist did or didn't do....


I'm not so sure about that...

Duffy was a journalist wasn't he?

Kinda of speaks to the ethics of journalists as well.

Politicians and journalists deserve each other... they are often two peas in the same pod these days.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I'm not so sure about that...
> 
> Duffy was a journalist wasn't he?
> 
> Kinda of speak to the ethics of journalists as well.
> 
> Politicians and journalists deserve each other... they are often two peas in the same pod these days.


Speaking of profiling....  :lmao:


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> Speaking of profiling....  :lmao:


I know eh!!


----------



## Kosh

screature said:


> Duffy was a journalist wasn't he?
> 
> Kinda of speaks to the ethics of journalists as well.
> 
> Politicians and journalists deserve each other... they are often two peas in the same pod these days.


 
Duffy and Pamela are both journalists... both have had financial issues in the Senate.


Hopefully all these Senators will also figure out where they live, as well. Strange, I have no problem figuring out where I live.


----------



## screature

Kosh said:


> Duffy and Pamela are both journalists... both have had financial issues in the Senate.
> 
> 
> Hopefully all these Senators will also figure out where they live, as well. Strange, I have no problem figuring out where I live.


Actually with Pamella her primary residence being Saskatchewan has not been the problem she has cleared that hurdle and it is not an issue for her.

What is the issue for her is her travel claims for which the audit is not yet complete.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> What is the issue for her is her travel claims for which the audit is not yet complete.


Harper said he looked at her travel expenses and everything was in line with one would expect with someone from her location....

...but that was before he asked her to leave his caucus, and not so coincidently before the entire senate finance coverup scandal broke.

beejacon


----------



## iMouse

That would be fine, if you trusted Harpo in the first place.


----------



## Macfury

I sometimes have a hard time telling my many homes apart...


----------



## SINC

Bump - thread was stalled at screature's post and missing the three posts above. You're welcome.


----------



## Macfury

Nova Scotia paving program comes under fire – Daily Commercial News



> According to documents obtained by the CTF through the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, government road crews costs taxpayers $7,371.97 per kilometre of work completed in salaries, benefits, overtime and expenses, while government business plans predicted it would cost $3,666.59 per km of work.


Looks like Nova Scotia's NDP government is proving once again that government can't effectively run a business--in this case road-paving operations.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Just another man with oil interests seeking to abuse the taxpayers of this country. That's right none other than Steve Harper - 🐷🐷🐷🐷🐷🐖🐖🐖🐖🐖

Energy costs climb at 24 Sussex as


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Just another man with oil interests seeking to abuse the taxpayers of this country. That's right none other than Steve Harper - 🐷🐷🐷🐷🐷🐖🐖🐖🐖🐖
> 
> Energy costs climb at 24 Sussex as


Skippy, that's an inane article--it doesn't criticize the PM at all.


----------



## Macfury

Senate scandals remain an equal-opportunity activity:

Mac Harb loan from Ottawa businessman under scrutiny



> Senator Mac Harb arrives to the East Block of Parliament Hill in Ottawa on May 29, 2013. Media reports say the amount to be repaid by former Liberal senator Mac Harb over questionable expense claims has jumped to $231,000.


----------



## kps

AP photo of the day: Senators having their daily breakfast on parliament Hill.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> AP photo of the day: Senators having their daily breakfast on parliament Hill.


Yep.. And watch out as you're disributing he slops, or they'll eat your hand while they're at it.

The only thing different about the latest case is that the Liberal Party doesn't have enough money to pay off the loan--unless JT engages in some more public speaking events for charity.


----------



## i-rui

there's no NDP senators, so they actually have a legitimate pass on any senate transgressions.

Harb seems like a weasel, but even his finance "scandal" can't compare to the wright-duffy deal.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting expose of emails between Ontario Liberals on gas plant cancellations & prorogation.

Behind the curtain: Read emails between Ontario Liberal staffers over gas plant cancellations, prorogation


----------



## Macfury

That's a rare look at the intricacies of malfeasance.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> there's no NDP senators, so they actually have a legitimate pass on any senate transgressions.
> 
> Harb seems like a weasel, but even his finance "scandal" *can't compare to the wright-duffy deal*.


How is that exactly when his transgressions are two and half times greater than Duffy's?

Oh I know, a Lib did it, so no scandal at all.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> How is that exactly when his transgressions are two and half times greater than Duffy's?
> 
> Oh I know, a Lib did it, so no scandal at all.


Simple.

They both ripped off tax payers for a boat load of money.

However, members of the PMO's office tried to cover up Duffy's or at least make it appear much less than it was.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> How is that exactly when his transgressions are two and half times greater than Duffy's?
> 
> Oh I know, a Lib did it, so no scandal at all.


The plausible deniability of the Liberal position, apparently, is that the party no longer has enough money to pay back a loan on the member's behalf.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> However, members of the PMO's office tried to cover up Duffy's or at least make it appear much less than it was.


yea, that's a pretty major point to try and gloss over...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Simple.
> 
> They both ripped off tax payers for a boat load of money.
> 
> *However, members of the PMO's office tried to cover up Duffy's or at least make it appear much less than it was*.


No they didn't where d you get that from?

What he owed was known, what wasn't known was how he came up with the money and now that is known.

What you state is simply not true. What Wright did was to give Duffy the money to pay up what he owed. Not what you say at all.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, there appears to be little basic understanding of the word "both", doesn't there? Seems Wright and Duffy and the Lib equals 'both'. Of course, that is often the case.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> How is that exactly when his transgressions are two and half times greater than Duffy's?
> 
> Oh I know, a Lib did it, so no scandal at all.


Harb's transgression is far worse than Duffy's for more reasons than the amount owing.

What Duffy originally did was standard practice. That is, as the Senator from PEI, the record was supposed to show that he has a residence there. Obviously, claiming a property that you spend next to no time at is not what that requirement was supposed to accomplish, and the Senate has now decided that those expenses will not be allowed. OK, fine, says Duffy, here's the money back.

Harb, on the other hand, claimed a property that he didn't even own, that had been someone else's residence for many years, and when he was called on it, he insisted that he had no intention of paying the money back.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No they didn't where d you get that from?
> 
> What he owed was known, what wasn't known was how he came up with the money and now that is known.
> 
> What you state is simply not true. What Wright did was to give Duffy the money to pay up what he owed. Not what you say at all.


you seriously, don't see the difference?

I realize that Harb's amounts owing are much larger than Duffy's. I won't excuse him for his fraud.

But clearly the scandal involving a member of the PMO's office who resigned isn't good, which you're glossing over, as well as other members of the PMO's office knowing about it, never mind the deal that was going to go light on Duffy!

Did you miss that part of the story? It's hard to believe you're fine with all of that.

Thankfully many Canadians don't seem fine about it.

I see some conservatives getting a little defensive about all this. If it weren't for the involvement of a now resigned member of the PMO's office, and the attempt at a coverup (which you might be forgetting that was part of the deal...) then it would have been a simple case of, Harb's was much worse than Duffy's, yes.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> you seriously, don't see the difference?
> 
> I realize that Harb's amounts owing are much larger than Duffy's. I won't excuse him for his fraud.
> 
> But clearly the scandal involving a member of the PMO's office who resigned isn't good, which you're glossing over, as well as other members of the PMO's office knowing about it, never mind the deal that was going to go light on Duffy!
> 
> Did you miss that part of the story? It's hard to believe you're fine with all of that.
> 
> Thankfully many Canadians don't seem fine about it.
> 
> I see some conservatives getting a little defensive about all this. If it weren't for the involvement of a now resigned member of the PMO's office, and the attempt at a coverup (which you might be forgetting that was part of the deal...) then it would have been a simple case of, Harb's was much worse than Duffy's, yes.


Of course part of his job involves overlooking such details and trying to spin things in a manner that encourages others to do the same. Cannot fault someone for doing their job. 

OTOH no reason to look at the world through the special glasses they are selling either.

I am willing to give a bit of slack here as I am pretty sure this is all a smoke screen, which is covering up something far more serious and perhaps a good deal more sinister as well.beejacon


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I am willing to give a bit of slack here as I am pretty sure this is all a smoke screen, which is covering up something far more serious and perhaps a good deal more sinister as well.beejacon


How about the fact that the federal government spends too much of everyone's money--I think that should be dealt with as well.


----------



## eMacMan

> I am willing to give a bit of slack here as I am pretty sure this is all a smoke screen, which is covering up something far more serious and perhaps a good deal more sinister as well.beejacon





Macfury said:


> How about the fact that the federal government spends too much of everyone's money--I think that should be dealt with as well.


Perhaps only that. Perhaps the bums have an under the table agreement to get sucked into Syria or Yemen. Perhaps the FATCA-IGA which Canada has been secretly negotiating and is ready to sign, sells out Canadians as well as Americans living in Canada. ............. The possibilities are far too numerous to list.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> you seriously, don't see the difference?
> 
> I realize that Harb's amounts owing are much larger than Duffy's. I won't excuse him for his fraud.
> 
> But clearly the scandal involving a member of the PMO's office who resigned isn't good, which you're glossing over, as well as other members of the PMO's office knowing about it, never mind the deal that was going to go light on Duffy!
> 
> *Did you miss that part of the story? It's hard to believe you're fine with all of that.*
> 
> Thankfully many Canadians don't seem fine about it.
> 
> I see some conservatives getting a little defensive about all this. If it weren't for the involvement of a now resigned member of the PMO's office, *and the attempt at a coverup (which you might be forgetting that was part of the deal...)* then it would have been a simple case of, Harb's was much worse than Duffy's, yes.


Not fine with all that at all. It was a glaring mistake and points to Wright's incompetence as well as other members of PMO, but at the end of the day Duffy owed two and half times less than Harb, something that seems lost on the left.

So let's see which is worse? Ripping off tax payers for 90K or 230K... seems to me ripping off tax payers for 230K and yet Harb is getting a cake walk in the media by comparison.

A coverup that has never been proven lest you forget. Fife only has "sources say" for a deal which he never saw, nor has it been verified that anyone else has, but you seem to think it is gospel... wonder why that is?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not fine with all that at all. It was a glaring mistake and points to Wright's incompetence as well as other members of PMO, but at the end of the day Duffy owed two and half times less than Harb, something that seems lost on the left.
> 
> So let's see which is worse? Ripping off tax payers for 90K or 230K... seems to me ripping off tax payers for 230K and yet Harb is getting a cake walk in the media by comparison.
> 
> A coverup that has never been proven lest you forget. Fife only has "sources say" for a deal which he never saw, nor has it been verified that anyone else has, but you seem to think it is gospel... wonder why that is?


I don't think anyone "on the left" is missing the fraud by mac harb. But it sounds to me you've already made up your mind that the PMO scandal and alleged coverup is a non-story.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not fine with all that at all. It was a glaring mistake and points to Wright's incompetence as well as other members of PMO, but at the end of the day Duffy owed two and half times less than Harb, something that seems lost on the left.
> 
> So let's see which is worse? Ripping off tax payers for 90K or 230K... seems to me ripping off tax payers for 230K and yet Harb is getting a cake walk in the media by comparison.
> 
> A coverup that has never been proven lest you forget. Fife only has "sources say" for a deal which he never saw, nor has it been verified that anyone else has, but you seem to think it is gospel... wonder why that is?


Pamela Wallin audit shows up to $142,000 in improper expenses: sources | CTV News
and, if we're counting dollars here based on conservative/liberal, Mac Hard racked up 230k in improper expenses over 8 years, while Pamella Wallin, racked up 140k in half the time. Imagine the number of she were senator for 8 years? Is she also getting the cakewalk that Mac Harb is getting?

See there's all kinds of ways to spin this based on dollar amounts.

I'm more interested in the allegations of improper meddling and coverup.


----------



## groovetube

John Ivison: Despite her protestations, allegations of coverup look terrible for Pamela Wallin | National Post

Is it possible Wallin could be sent to jail over this? A liberal senator was, for much much less too.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Not fine with all that at all. It was a glaring mistake and points to Wright's incompetence as well as other members of PMO, but at the end of the day Duffy owed two and half times less than Harb, something that seems lost on the left.


I think they rate the crime by dividing it by the number of hours worked--but only when it makes a better case for lefty members.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> John Ivison: Despite her protestations, allegations of coverup look terrible for Pamela Wallin | National Post
> 
> Is it possible Wallin could be sent to jail over this? A liberal senator was, for much much less too.


Her argument seems to be since the money did not end up in her own pocket all was legit, as long as she repays the questionable expenses. 

Not sure once a proper degree of counter spin is applied how many Canadians will be able to choke that one down, but you do have to give her an F for effort.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Her argument seems to be since the money did not end up in her own pocket all was legit, as long as she repays the questionable expenses.
> 
> Not sure once a proper degree of counter spin is applied how many Canadians will be able to choke that one down, but you do have to give her an F for effort.


I'm sure we'll see plenty of spin coming up.

I was just curious as to what the results would be of these senators given the liberal one went to jail for way less.


----------



## winwintoo

Full disclosure: I have not read this whole thread. I'm not an accountant. I'm not a senator. If truth be told I don even pay taxes anymore (although for th last several years of employment, I pai enough tax to keep a small country afloat)

But, I question spending $127,000 to prove that somebody misspent $140,000. 

Those two numbers are pretty close together, what did we gain besides making Pamela look bad. 

I'd like somebody to audit the auditors expenses.

Just saying.


----------



## groovetube

winwintoo said:


> Full disclosure: I have not read this whole thread. I'm not an accountant. I'm not a senator. If truth be told I don even pay taxes anymore (although for th last several years of employment, I pai enough tax to keep a small country afloat)
> 
> But, I question spending $127,000 to prove that somebody misspent $140,000.
> 
> Those two numbers are pretty close together, what did we gain besides making Pamela look bad.
> 
> I'd like somebody to audit the auditors expenses.
> 
> Just saying.


It's an imperfect system. The cost of catching the liberals at adscam, past politicians, the ones we'll most likely see when this government goes down in flames is astronomical. It's almost as if both 'industries' support each other.

Perhaps if the politician/group that is audited and found guilty of whatever it is they were investigated for, they should also, be responsible for the costs associated with the audit, and legal.

Perhaps that would make them think twice about fraud and maybe getting away with it.

As for making Wallin look bad, she should go to jail like the liberal senator did not long ago if she's guilty of this. I don't care of she looks bad for this. She has already been found to have improperly filled her boots with our cash.


----------



## whatiwant

I think Wallin has hidden the loot in the robust jowls she's grown since leaving television. Look no further.


----------



## groovetube

jawknee said:


> I think Wallin has hidden the loot in the robust jowls she's grown since leaving television. Look no further.


Suddenly Duffy's hiding place becomes clear!


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> Suddenly Duffy's hiding place becomes clear!


Shazam


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'd like to know her perfume bill?

We shared an elevator once and she was the stinky perfumed one among us.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I don't care of she looks bad for this. She has already been found to have improperly filled her boots with our cash.


While I abhor what she did as much as the next guy, it is inaccurate and inflammatory statements like this that are just wrong. Did she misuse taxpayer's money to pay for various unauthorized expenses that should not have been charged to the senate? Yes, by all means and she should pay the penalty for her decisions.

Did she 'fill her boots with cash'? Hardly. None of that money, which was more likely not cash, but credit card receipts, was stuffed under her mattress or deposited in her bank account as it went to cover those unauthorized expenses. And then some people claim the media is sensationalizing this?


----------



## Rps

Having been an auditor, I can tell you three truths about excessive expense situations. 1 - Usually stem from very poor policy, guidelines, and procedures; 2- Dreadful span of control and oversight; 3- Generally those who abuse the most own the policy so little to any incentive to change.

The real issue here is that we insist on installing people as Senators who have no reason to be Senators. While I'm an Equal and Elected mind set, our elected officials ( and non-elected ones ) continue hold an air of entitlement ..... That's the real issue here.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'd like to know her perfume bill?
> 
> We shared an elevator once and she was the stinky perfumed one among us.


Hopefully the perfume covered the odour of the elevator's other passengers!


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> While I abhor what she did as much as the next guy, it is inaccurate and inflammatory statements like this that are just wrong. Did she misuse taxpayer's money to pay for various unauthorized expenses that should not have been charged to the senate? Yes, by all means and she should pay the penalty for her decisions.
> 
> Did she 'fill her boots with cash'? Hardly. None of that money, which was more likely not cash, but credit card receipts, was stuffed under her mattress or deposited in her bank account as it went to cover those unauthorized expenses. And then some people claim the media is sensationalizing this?


Alright, since you asked the question of whether she 'filled her boots with our cash', here's your answer...



> In her time as a senator, Ms. Wallin has served on several corporate boards, including Porter Airlines and Calgary-based Oilsands Quest Inc. The latter paid her at least $600,000, according to to its financial filings, and the audit found that some trips to Calgary were paid for by a “third party.”
> 
> *On five occasions, however, she claimed Senate reimbursement for what auditors deemed “personal” travel or “private business” in Calgary. The costs were billed as Senate business, and Ms. Wallin has since repaid two of the claims, totalling $7,356.40, saying they were made in error.*


Since she got caught she repaid it eh?



> The auditors also flagged $1,402.59 in expenses for two Porter events, including one 2010 event Ms. Wallin billed as Senate business for a luncheon that the auditors said “appears to be of a* personal interest given her role at the time on the board of an airline company.*”
> 
> She also served as chancellor for the University of Guelph, an unpaid position. The auditors allege she should repay $2,728.35 for a trip billed to her Senate account that appears to have only included a Guelph convocation. She also billed $511.14 to fly to Toronto, where she caught a flight to Punta Cana for a private conference. The auditors found that didn’t count as “Senate business.”
> 
> Toronto stopovers
> 
> Ms. Wallin represents Saskatchewan and keeps a home there, but owns a condo in Toronto. The audit found that she spends most of her time in that city. As such, she tends to stop there while flying between Ottawa and Saskatchewan.
> 
> Auditors included information from 94 flights Ms. Wallin took from the capital to her home province. Of those, 11 were direct and one had a connection. *Of the rest, 43 stopped in Toronto for one night, 32 stopped in Toronto for more than one night and seven used other routes. Ms. Wallin told the auditors that she didn’t claim per diems or living allowances for the stopovers, but the auditors demonstrated that the costs piled up – extra cab fares and higher airline fares, as she typically booked each leg of the journey separately.*


You still want to go with her not using tax payers dollars for her own personal use??



> Ms. Wallin has argued that flights between Ottawa and Saskatchewan are infrequent, and that her Saskatchewan home lies another two hours from the airport, making late-night travel difficult, particularly in the winter. When the costs were raised earlier this year, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Ms. Wallin’s travel claims are similar to those of other senators. *The difference, as the auditors lay out, is her frequent stops in Toronto. The auditors say these costs totalled $31,025.*


Not inaccurate, or inflammatory at all in my opinion, I'm surprised any fiscal conservative who was upset at a liberal for wasting money would give her such a free pass.

In truth, I find the idea that policy is 'unclear' a really convenient excuse. You can bet such an excuse would never be afforded a liberal, why should it be for a conservative? A liberal senator went to jail for amounts totalling less than Wallin's. -Both- were caught billing for personal expenses not related to the senate, but somehow Wallin is allowed the 'policy is unclear' defence?

I don't think any of them deserve the excuse, neither the conservative, or the liberal senators. They knew full well what they were doing, they were abusing the system and thought they could get away with it.


----------



## SINC

Fact is that none of what you call 'cash' was in her personal possession. End of story. Misappropriated? Yes? In her wallet? Not ever. Inflammatory stands.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Fact is that none of what you call 'cash' was in her personal possession. End of story. Misappropriated? Yes? In her wallet? Not ever. Inflammatory stands.


What? You want to draw a distinction, between misappropriated funds as cash in a wallet, and misappropriated funds used by credit card for personal expenses? Is this what I'm hearing?

I'm sure anyone else reading this can see through what you're suggesting...

It looks like a whole lot of squirming here to me. misappropriated funds for personal use, is misappropriated funds for personal use. Whether it's the form of cash in your wallet to pay for personal expenses, or used with a credit card.

Inflammatory? That's a joke.


----------



## Rps

Groove, what we have here is a classic case of poor governance by the government on expense issues. One has to be careful here that we don't use the "F" word ( fraud not some other word some may have been thinking ). But, and I agree with you here, it is ludicrous to think she did not personally benefit from these expenses ... she received a benefit that she was reimbursed for ... at issue is the definition of Senate Business .... and that is a can of worms in itself.

I had an audit lead who once said to me that " peasants shouldn't audit kings"... while I understood his thought, clearly, the kings need to be reminded who owns the purse. It wouldn't matter if we had an E&E Senate, it's the governance of the government that is the problem and you know who can change that don't you .....


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Groove, what we have here is a classic case of poor governance by the government on expense issues. One has to be careful here that we don't use the "F" word ( fraud not some other word some may have been thinking ). But, and I agree with you here, it is ludicrous to think she did not personally benefit from these expenses ... she received a benefit that she was reimbursed for ... at issue is the definition of Senate Business .... and that is a can of worms in itself.
> 
> I had an audit lead who once said to me that " peasants shouldn't audit kings"... while I understood his thought, clearly, the kings need to be reminded who owns the purse. It wouldn't matter if we had an E&E Senate, it's the governance of the government that is the problem and you know who can change that don't you .....


Yes indeed RP, and I agree with you on the E&E thing.

The thing is, if it were a private company these senators worked for, they would be charged criminally and likely face jail time.


----------



## Rps

Groove I'm not so sure that a private company would have them charged. What we have here is abuse not fraud .... So for the most part suspensions or dismissals would be a common sanction ..... If it were me Mr. Duffy and Ms. Wallin would be walkin"


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Groove I'm not so sure that a private company would have them charged. What we have here is abuse not fraud .... So for the most part suspensions or dismissals would be a common sanction ..... If it were me Mr. Duffy and Ms. Wallin would be walkin"


A liberal senator was sent to jail for using senate funds for personal use.

Now we don't know the full details of Wallin's case until the rcmp wraps up, but to me, knowingly misappropriating funds for personal use, is fraud. I think all 3, Duffy, Harb, and Wallin should be facing criminal charges, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> The thing is, if it were a private company these senators worked for, they would be charged criminally and likely face jail time.


I doubt that. They'd likely be fired, and possibly civilly sued, but criminal fraud usually requires an intent to knowingly deceive, and here, they are all going back to "I thought I was doing it properly."

I'm not sure if there are special rules in place for Senators re: jail time for overcharging expenses... seems possible that there are, since this is the public trust and not private business, but I don't know.

But it's important to note that you can be criminally charged with fraud based on your _intent_, not how much you got away with. So you could intentionally deceive people, get nothing out of it, and be charged... or you can mistakenly get millions and not be charged. So the question is, do we believe that the Senators really believed that they were expensing things correctly, or were they intentionally deceiving people? 

("Well, so many other Senators were expensing things for personal use the same way, so I really did think that was okay...." )


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I doubt that. They'd likely be fired, and possibly civilly sued, but criminal fraud usually requires an intent to knowingly deceive, and here, they are all going back to "I thought I was doing it properly."


Just as some people are pushing for a "guilty and insane" plea, perhaps we should develop a "guilty and none-too-smart" category as well.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I doubt that. They'd likely be fired, and possibly civilly sued, but criminal fraud usually requires an intent to knowingly deceive, and here, they are all going back to "I thought I was doing it properly."
> 
> I'm not sure if there are special rules in place for Senators re: jail time for overcharging expenses... seems possible that there are, since this is the public trust and not private business, but I don't know.
> 
> But it's important to note that you can be criminally charged with fraud based on your _intent_, not how much you got away with. So you could intentionally deceive people, get nothing out of it, and be charged... or you can mistakenly get millions and not be charged. So the question is, do we believe that the Senators really believed that they were expensing things correctly, or were they intentionally deceiving people?
> 
> ("Well, so many other Senators were expensing things for personal use the same way, so I really did think that was okay...." )


I don't disagree with you. But look at the long list of claims for money clearly not senate business! They had to know what they were doing wasn't right. I'm not buying the excuse they didn't know. None of them.

But you're right. They'll get away with it simply because they can say 'I thought I was doing it correctly'.

My anger at this has nothing to do with what party they belong to. I'd like to see both the conservative and liberal senators receive sever penalties for their actions. More than just pay it back.

As someone else mentioned, they should also cover the cost to taxpayers for the investigations as well.


----------



## winwintoo

I'm not an accountant, so I don't know what an accountant is worth.

I don't know if Ms. Wallin misused funds.

What do know is that whoever ok'd an expenditure of an amount equal to what they want to recover needs to be looked at closely and that accounting firm better be keeping a sharp eye on their own billing practice.

I suspect if we were to look at the itemized accounting bill, there would be more than a few $3000 hammers in there.

I worked for a crown corporation. Most of the employees were ou in the field and submitted receipts for meals and hotels. There was a bevy of clerks adding up every receipt and calculating tax to make sure nobody overcharged.

Eventually an efficiency expert asked the clerks how many mistakes they uncovered in a week. The clerk with the most seniority said she had only ever found a handful.

The company lost more money in stolen pencils and paper clips a day than 5, $30000/year clerks uncovered in a lifetime. Never mind the reams of paper and ink people used every day. My desk was beside a printer and I put paper in it every day.

If we audited every politician, we might find as much as a million dollars went missing on flights and hotel rooms, but the accountants would bill us three million.

Who is really the crook?


----------



## eMacMan

winwintoo said:


> I'm not an accountant, so I don't know what an accountant is worth.
> 
> I don't know if Ms. Wallin misused funds.
> 
> What do know is that whoever ok'd an expenditure of an amount equal to what they want to recover needs to be looked at closely and that accounting firm better be keeping a sharp eye on their own billing practice.
> 
> I suspect if we were to look at the itemized accounting bill, there would be more than a few $3000 hammers in there.
> 
> I worked for a crown corporation. Most of the employees were ou in the field and submitted receipts for meals and hotels. There was a bevy of clerks adding up every receipt and calculating tax to make sure nobody overcharged.
> 
> Eventually an efficiency expert asked the clerks how many mistakes they uncovered in a week. The clerk with the most seniority said she had only ever found a handful.
> 
> The company lost more money in stolen pencils and paper clips a day than 5, $30000/year clerks uncovered in a lifetime. Never mind the reams of paper and ink people used every day. My desk was beside a printer and I put paper in it every day.
> 
> If we audited every politician, we might find as much as a million dollars went missing on flights and hotel rooms, but the accountants would bill us three million.
> 
> Who is really the crook?


I was thinking along the same lines but you expressed it much more eloquently. I do know the cost of the audit is significantly higher than the discrepancies uncovered.

Bean counters and lawyers will never starve if a federal government has any say in the matter.


----------



## i-rui

winwintoo said:


> Full disclosure: I have not read this whole thread. I'm not an accountant. I'm not a senator. If truth be told I don even pay taxes anymore (although for th last several years of employment, I pai enough tax to keep a small country afloat)
> 
> But, I question spending $127,000 to prove that somebody misspent $140,000.
> 
> Those two numbers are pretty close together, what did we gain besides making Pamela look bad.
> 
> I'd like somebody to audit the auditors expenses.
> 
> Just saying.


i haven't looked into the numbers, but if what you posted is correct then the process is still $13,000 ahead. Not to mention the larger issue of holding someone accountable.

So is it an ideal process? no. 

is it better than NOT doing an audit? absolutely not.

it's an imperfect solution to a unfortunate situation, but certainly better than doing nothing.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i haven't looked into the numbers, but if what you posted is correct then the process is still $13,000 ahead. Not to mention the larger issue of holding someone accountable.
> 
> So is it an ideal process? no.
> 
> is it better than NOT doing an audit? absolutely not.
> 
> it's an imperfect solution to a unfortunate situation, but certainly better than doing nothing.


Fully agree. Removing the audits and allowing these politicians free reign with our money is even worse.

Now we have the liberals crowing about better transparency. Anyone having a deja vu here?


----------



## winwintoo

I'm not saying audits and accountability are wrong.

What I am saying is that whenever the government contracts the private sector for goods and services, we all get gouged.

Should the audit have been internal. No, because that would stink of further cover-up.

There is outcry over Wallin's and other's spending.

I'm launching an outcry about the exorbitant price we're paying the accounting firm.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It all smells bad doesn't it?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper in happier times*

The good old days eh?


----------



## screature

Actually a very good read from the Huff Post on the Senate debacle and why it is actually the Senate itself to blame for Wallin's "transgressions".

Pamela Wallin Audit: Senate Culture May Be To Blame For Expense Scandals, Observers Say


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Actually a very good read from the Huff Post on the Senate debacle and why it is actually the Senate itself to blame for Wallin's "transgressions".
> 
> Pamela Wallin Audit: Senate Culture May Be To Blame For Expense Scandals, Observers Say


That article looks like a load of hogwash to me. Why? Because if it were really a senate culture that is to blame, what about the other 100 senators? Why is it that just these few senators were caught bilking tax payers for personal expenses and partisan costs? 4 out of 105 senators?

If you think about this reasonably in this light, how is it 'senate culture' is to blame? WOuldn't there be a whole lot more senators filing hundreds of thousands of dollars in personal non senate expenses as well?

I think I'd like to hear a really good explanation of this before accepting this.


----------



## Sonal

I certainly can accept the idea that Senate culture is to blame, in the sense that the rules are not always clear and staff don't speak up about expenses in advance. 

Of course, that means the process of Senate expensing needs a massive overhaul.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I certainly can accept the idea that Senate culture is to blame, in the sense that the rules are not always clear and staff don't speak up about expenses in advance.
> 
> Of course, that means the process of Senate expensing needs a massive overhaul.


But how is it only a few were caught in this? There's no doubt senate rules have to be clarified, but before accepting that someone/something else is to blame, why is it that only 4 out of 105 are caught with this? For it to be 'senate culture', you would think this extends far beyond just a few senators. Have all the senator's expenses been examined for this?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Actually a very good read from the Huff Post on the Senate debacle and why it is actually the Senate itself to blame for Wallin's "transgressions".
> 
> Pamela Wallin Audit: Senate Culture May Be To Blame For Expense Scandals, Observers Say


Sounds like a diversion to me. Sort of like the school bully claiming it's OK that he steals other kids lunch money because the other bullies do it too.

That said most Senate appointments are based on good old fashioned cronyism. You know the same cronyism King Harpo so despised before he became PM. The sad truth is that the ethical awareness of political cronies ranks somewhere below; rats, serpents, lawyers and elected politicians. With that in mind one could indeed claim that Brazeau, Harb, Wallin and Duffy are just fine examples of BAU in the Senate.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> But how is it only a few were caught in this? There's no doubt senate rules have to be clarified, but before accepting that someone/something else is to blame, why is it that only 4 out of 105 are caught with this? For it to be 'senate culture', you would think this extends far beyond just a few senators. Have all the senator's expenses been examined for this?


I think it probably does extend beyond the 4 out of 105 Senators caught in this.

These 4, if I remember correctly, had some particularly high expenses, but that doesn't mean that those with lower expenses were not doing things in similar ways.... perhaps they don't get invited to (for example) preside over convocations as much, or choose not to accept such invitations as often, but they may still be expensing things in similar ways.

A one-time audit of the entire senate, with the goal of understanding current expensing practices and clarifying the rules is not out of order, IMO.


----------



## groovetube

I think that's a good idea as well.

Still, there's no way wallin, harb, duffy, etc didn't know what they were doing was not right, and to the extent that they did it.

I'm just not buying the excuses. Seems to me they lived the high life on the tax payers dime knowingly.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I think that's a good idea as well.
> 
> Still, there's no way wallin, harb, duffy, etc didn't know what they were doing was not right, and to the extent that they did it.
> 
> I'm just not buying the excuses. Seems to me they lived the high life on the tax payers dime knowingly.


It's taken a lot of years for me to fully comprehend that the average politician or political crony has a very distorted sense of right and wrong. 

Generally they believe anything goes right up until they get caught at which point in time they suddenly profess to being very good Christians and what they did is so out of character they still can't believe they did it.beejacon Even so it's OK because that guy over there did it as well, and he is a member of the other party!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That article looks like a load of hogwash to me. Why? Because if it were really a senate culture that is to blame, *what about the other 100 senators?* Why is it that just these few senators were caught bilking tax payers for personal expenses and partisan costs? 4 out of 105 senators?
> 
> If you think about this reasonably in this light, how is it 'senate culture' is to blame? WOuldn't there be a whole lot more senators filing hundreds of thousands of dollars in personal non senate expenses as well?
> 
> I think I'd like to hear a really good explanation of this before accepting this.


We don't know about the other senators because they haven't been audited.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I think it probably does extend beyond the 4 out of 105 Senators caught in this.
> 
> These 4, if I remember correctly, had some particularly high expenses, but that doesn't mean that those with lower expenses were not doing things in similar ways.... perhaps they don't get invited to (for example) preside over convocations as much, or choose not to accept such invitations as often, but they may still be expensing things in similar ways.
> 
> *A one-time audit of the entire senate, with the goal of understanding current expensing practices and clarifying the rules is not out of order, IMO*.


Fully in order I would say.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> We don't know about the other senators because they haven't been audited.


which begs the question, why were Duffy/wallin/harb/what's his face audited and not the others?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> which begs the question, why were Duffy/wallin/harb/what's his face audited and not the others?


Their claimed expenses were higher and that is a flag for any auditor. 

Remember a friend being called in by the IRS because he claimed something on the order of 10,000 miles a year business related mileage. For a big city non-delivery business, this would be unsupportable, but when you live in a rural area and every trip to visit a client is at least 50 miles, those mileages add up in a big hurry. Since he kept a very detailed log of every business trip and could correlate trips to earned income, he spent less than 5 minutes talking to the auditor. I suspect if his record keeping had been as sloppy as many business men he might have been facing a tax bill and a much larger penalty assessment.


----------



## winwintoo

Sonal said:


> I certainly can accept the idea that Senate culture is to blame, in the sense that the rules are not always clear and staff don't speak up about expenses in advance.
> 
> Of course, that means the process of Senate expensing needs a massive overhaul.


Here, here!

If you've ever worked in Government, you will know that there is one hard and fast rule - never challenge anyone above you. Questioning the actions of a boss is the quickest way to be blackballed. And while everybody soon forgets the subject of you query, they will remember that you're an outcast. You will never be promoted and you will be denied crucial resources you need to do your job.

Remember the plane that crashed into the sea wall? Well the co-pilot knew they were going to crash, but the culture made him keep silent.

In my years working for a crown corporation, I witnessed waste (in one case, about $100K of software was purchased and not used and later destroyed. I spoke up to question the purchase order, but the "consultant" who requested the purchase and the manager who authorized it went ahead with. I was black-balled.

I think the "culture" in the senate situation has everything to do with the current situation. Even if staff knew about faulty claims, they didn't dare say anything in case the target gets shifted to them.

In the grand scheme of things, $121K is nothing compared to the waste that goes on all the time.



> Deloitte notes several times in its report that Wallin is the only senator whose travel expenses have been reviewed, and therefore auditors were not in a position to know whether other senators are making similar claims and receiving reimbursements from the Senate.


They needed a scapegoat. This year it's Pamela Wallin. Next year it will be someone else. Meanwhile our money will be dribbling away and nobody will notice.

I've noticed over the years that whenever a coverup is required south of the border there is a rise in interviews and leaks about either Roswell or the shooting of JFK.

I wonder what Ottawa is distracting us from.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Sounds like a diversion to me.* Sort of like the school bully claiming it's OK that he steals other kids lunch money because the other bullies do it too.
> 
> That said most Senate appointments are based on good old fashioned cronyism. You know the same cronyism King Harpo so despised before he became PM. The sad truth is that the ethical awareness of political cronies ranks somewhere below; rats, serpents, lawyers and elected politicians. With that in mind one could indeed claim that Brazeau, Harb, Wallin and Duffy are just fine examples of BAU in the Senate.


Everything is a diversion to you ehMacMan unless it fits within your conspiracy theory regime. Common sense and, sometimes a banana is just a banana, don't seem to fit within your vernacular.

There must always be a deeper, more nefarious and hidden agenda... Sometimes there is, but I would suggest much, much less often than you seem to believe.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Get along little Dooggie Get along - Yea Haw!

Auditor general to review all senators' expenses - Politics - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wallin lines her pockets -
Wallin was never scheduled to speak: Arts club director | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Get along little Dooggie Get along - Yea Haw!
> 
> Auditor general to review all senators' expenses - Politics - CBC News


Great news, especially here in the Land of many long little doggies. Hopefully, the AG will not trip on these doggies going up the stairs to the Upper Chamber. We shall see.

Seriously, it is about time that this task was undertaken. All eyes shall be upon him as he finds out what their expenses have been in the past. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> Great news, especially here in the Land of many long little doggies. Hopefully, the AG will not trip on these doggies going up the stairs to the Upper Chamber. We shall see.
> 
> Seriously, it is about time that this task was undertaken. All eyes shall be upon him as he finds out what their expenses have been in the past. Paix, mon ami.


I smell many long nights for CONS and Libs alike.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wallin lines her pockets -
> Wallin was never scheduled to speak: Arts club director | Globalnews.ca


Oops!!!!!!!!! 

Sadly, I always respected her as a journalist.


----------



## groovetube

great news. They all should be audited.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I smell many long nights for CONS and Libs alike.


We shall see. I tire at seeing the Senate become, as Rex Murphy said, "... as a jackpot table and bingo hall for party hacks, the fixers and deal makers."

CBC News - The National - Rex Murphy - Eugene Forsey and the Senate


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> Oops!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Sadly, I always respected her as a journalist.


Yikes! Another example of double dipping. 

https://www.hilltimes.com/news/politics/2013/08/15/records-show-evidence-of-double-billing-as-senate-university-of-guelph/35628

Yep billy bob she's a been lining her pockets.


----------



## groovetube

lining her pockets, or filling her boots with our cash. Take your pick.

But it seems where there is smoke, there's a fire.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> lining her pockets, or filling her boots with our cash. Take your pick.
> 
> But it seems where there is smoke, there's a fire.


Wonder if she's consulted with Conrad Black yet on the wherewithal's of prison life?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Wondering, Will Wallin be wallowing in Wadena this weekend?*

Ah the good ol' days eh Pammie?


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper will be called as a witness if Mike Duffy expenses allegations reach court: sources | National Post

This is set to get interesting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper will be called as a witness if Mike Duffy expenses allegations reach court: sources | National Post
> 
> This is set to get interesting.


Love it. The Puffster is blackmailing!


----------



## Ottawaman

Ironic?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

LOL. No evidence of cash taking like Ex-CON PM Brian Mulroney yet!


----------



## CubaMark

*Stephen Harper to seek prorogation of Parliament*



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper has confirmed he will ask the Governor General to prorogue Parliament until October, when his Conservative government will introduce the next speech from the throne.
> 
> "There will be a new throne speech in the fall, obviously the House will be prorogued in anticipation of that. We will come back — in October is our tentative timing," Harper told reporters in Whitehorse Monday. Harper is in the Yukon on the second day of his annual summer tour of the North.
> 
> The Prime Minister's Office later clarified that Harper will ask for Parliament to be prorogued before the scheduled return of the House on Sept. 16, meaning Parliament will not sit again until after the throne speech in October.


(CBC)


----------



## eMacMan

I thought that King Harpo had already clearly established that he was pro-rogue parliaments.

That said one at least hopes that the government can't do too much damage when not in session. Though it may be a case where the intended damage is so severe Harpo does not wish to face questions in parliament.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Stephen Harper to seek prorogation of Parliament*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)





eMacMan said:


> I thought that King Harpo had already clearly established that he was pro-rogue parliaments.
> 
> That said one at least hopes that the government can't do too much damage when not in session. Though it may be a case where the intended damage is so severe Harpo does not wish to face questions in parliament.


This has been expected for month's, first a major Cabinet shuffle then prorogue the House for a new Speech from the Throne to reset the agenda for the second half of the governments term. 

If anyone is surprised by this then they just haven't been following along.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good article. Will the north swallow more CON codswallop? 
A track record of broken promises - the facts are Harper doesn't deliver in the north.

Michael Byers: Seven years of empty promises in the Arctic


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Good article. Will the north swallow more CON codswallop?
> A track record of broken promises - the facts are Harper doesn't deliver in the north.
> 
> Michael Byers: Seven years of empty promises in the Arctic


While it is easy to point fingers at the current clump of clowns in Ottawa, this one goes back a lot further than seven years.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> If anyone is surprised by this then they just haven't been following along.


Quite correct; Harper's contempt for parliament is abundantly clear, and anyone who is surprised at his latest demonstration of disdain for democracy hasn't been paying attention. 

And people wonder why we might want to use sarcastic references to "Our Glorious Leader" with reference to this dictatorial coward who refuses to face our elected representatives in parliamentary debate


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Quite correct; Harper's contempt for parliament is abundantly clear, and anyone who is surprised at his latest demonstration of disdain for democracy hasn't been paying attention.


I guess the 107th incidence of prorogation is the one with the greatest sting.


----------



## FeXL

bryanc said:


> And people wonder why we might want to use sarcastic references to "Our Glorious Leader" with reference to this dictatorial coward who refuses to face our elected representatives in parliamentary debate


I thought this was the Canadian Political Thread, not the American one...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Fart face!*

Fart face! Better then Bev Oda.

Sun News : Anti-oil protester farts in Sun News reporter's face


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Fart face! Better then Bev Oda.
> 
> Sun News : Anti-oil protester farts in Sun News reporter's face


:lmao:


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Quite correct; Harper's contempt for parliament is abundantly clear, and anyone who is surprised at his latest demonstration of disdain for democracy hasn't been paying attention.
> 
> And people wonder why we might want to use sarcastic references to "Our Glorious Leader" with reference to this dictatorial coward who refuses to face our elected representatives in parliamentary debate


Prorogation is a legitimate power of a PM that has been used since time immemorial. If you are going to get your knickers in a knot over this current use you simply have no understanding of the history of Parliament.

Resetting the agenda of a government with a prorogation and a Speech from the Throne is common place. It is only those with a political agenda that cannot see that this is simply Parliamentary business as usual.

Harper's previous prorogation was not, but this one is absolutely typical since the beginning of Canadian Parliament.

Never mind history or the facts just keep on your merry anti-current government slagging ways... 

Ignorance is bliss except when there is no reason/justification for being ignorant, then it is just pure unfettered partisanship.


----------



## groovetube

It isn't as if Harper himself didn't have a political agenda with this prorogation. Of course the opposition will get their knickers in a knot, it's happened since time immemorial


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I*t isn't as if Harper himself didn't have a political agenda with this prorogation*. Of course the opposition will get their knickers in a knot, it's happened since time immemorial


Of course he did as do all prorogations... it is just that this fits well within the norm.



screature said:


> Well that would dry up the conversation here pretty fast.


I really do have to try and adopt this as a mantra...


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Fart face! Better then Bev Oda.
> 
> Sun News : Anti-oil protester farts in Sun News reporter's face


Yep them dam vegans emit a lot of methane. Almost certainly the main cause of AGW.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sun News : Anti-oil protester farts in Sun News reporter's face


I suspect this protester is simply trying out for the crack team at Occupy Wall Street.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I suspect this protester is simply trying out for the crack team at Occupy Wall Street.


Either that or he is a plumber.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Who ever smelt it dealt it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This is what we all gonna get if we vote that Trudeau boy in -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-used-cocktail-drugs-make-Nazi-superman.html

Yuh we'll be on our road to ruin once the cocaine hits.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This is what we all gonna get if we vote that Trudeau boy in -
> 
> Hitler the drug addict: Fuhrer used cocktail of drugs to make him 'Nazi superman' | Mail Online
> 
> Yuh we'll be on our road to ruin once the cocaine hits.


JT's ruined genitals will not impair his ability to tank the economy.


----------



## groovetube

this is rather interesting, a new nanos poll I don't seem to be hearing much about...

http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/POLNAT-W12-T582E.pdf

Guess that big puffed out chest on the wireless thing really isn't going to play out that well in the end really.


----------



## Dr.G.

I wonder if Prime Minister Harper will be up to the task to get the needed support to put a Canadian on the moon. We shall see.

Canadian on moon possible under latest space plan - Canada - CBC News

John F. Kennedy "Landing a man on the Moon" Address to Congress - May 25, 1961 - YouTube

John F. Kennedy: "We choose to go to the moon" speech - YouTube


----------



## CubaMark

Time to bring *Bob & Doug Mackenzie* out of retirement for a Canadian Moon Shot!


----------



## Dr.G.

Be serious, CM. They don't even produce "stubbies" anymore. "That's one small bottle for man, and one two-four for mankind."


----------



## CubaMark

Never say never, Dr. G. They brought Bob & Doug back in 2007 - *with stubbies* - to celebrate their anniversary


----------



## Dr.G.

Take off, CM. That was six years ago. Don't be a hoser and ruin this Canadian moment. Hopefully, as planned, the new Canadian launch site for all of our manned space flights will be on the northern shore of PEI ................ at least if Sen. Mike Duffy has anything to say about this decision. We shall see.

The Eastern Bald Senator - Hinterland Who's Who - YouTube


----------



## bryanc

Maybe we could send Harper; and leave him there.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Be serious, CM. They don't even produce "stubbies" anymore. "That's one small bottle for man, and one two-four for mankind."


Not quite accurate...


----------



## SINC

And good beer too!


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Maybe we could send Harper; and leave him there.


Seriously--what kind of gag is that? It's so generic you could just insert the name of any politician.


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau Liberals surge back into healthy lead in polls after leader’s pot admission | National Post

funny that!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Trudeau Liberals surge back into healthy lead in polls after leader’s pot admission | National Post
> 
> funny that!


Yup. 

More info on the CONS vote suppression scandal too. 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/touch/story.html?id=8835526

Thank goodness all of these scandals are alive and well and bound to damage Harper.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy, more fun and games between Harper PMO and Senate dealing with the puffster. 

So Nigel acted alone eh? 🙉🙉🙊

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...ors-to-reach-duffy-deal-emails-show-1.1428083


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whew boy, more fun and games between Harper PMO and Senate dealing with the puffster.
> 
> So Nigel acted alone eh? 🙉🙉🙊
> 
> Wright worked with 2 Conservative senators to reach Duffy deal, emails show | CTV News


There was never any doubt that Wright didn't act alone in this.


----------



## groovetube

John Ivison: Tory silence on Quebec’s proposed religious symbols ban is pure politics | National Post

Well at least Trudeau has called it, you'd think our prime minister wouldn't be playing politics on this, but I suppose that's hardly a surprise.


----------



## groovetube

Peter MacKay sticks to criticism of Justin Trudeau despite Barristers



> “The constitution does not give the attorney general a licence to badmouth,” Attaran told Postmedia News in an interview. “That’s what a partisan politician does. It’s not what the attorney general does and Mr. MacKay is going to have to learn the difference. He’s going to have to choose whether he is a partisan politician or an attorney general.”


Ouch.


----------



## FeXL

Mac Harb retires, keeps pension and flips Canadians the bird



> That’s right, Harb could no longer realistically count on keeping his generous pension if he was charged and convicted of any wrongdoing related to the Senate expense scandal.
> 
> So he quit and that means even if he is found guilty in a court of law his pension is safe.


There's gotta be a way to fix this kind of crap...


----------



## CubaMark

_The CBC has this all wrong. It's no mistake - the Conservatives did this on purpose. Can't have any of those damn socialists taking money away from our noble and glorious banks!_

*Budget 'mistake' more than doubles tax on credit unions*



> The NDP is calling on Finance Minister Jim Flaherty to acknowledge a mistake in last spring's federal budget that more than doubled the corporate tax rate for credit unions and bring in a fix immediately.
> 
> The government had signalled it was raising the tax rate for credit unions and caisses populaires to 15 per cent from 11 per cent, to bring them in line with Canadian banks.
> 
> But a recent Deloitte report found the budget implementation bill passed in the spring will effectively raise the credit unions' tax rate to 28 per cent over the next five years.


(CBC)


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> _The CBC has this all wrong. It's no mistake - the Conservatives did this on purpose. Can't have any of those damn socialists taking money away from our noble and glorious banks!_
> 
> *Budget 'mistake' more than doubles tax on credit unions*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


and there is no merger... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> _The CBC has this all wrong. It's no mistake - the Conservatives did this on purpose. Can't have any of those damn socialists taking money away from our noble and glorious banks!_


That's just little man talk, Mark. Omnibus bills typically create unwanted consequences. My surprise here is that it required Deloitte to tell the Credit Unions this was happening. Don't they pay attention to legislation that affects them?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Don't bogart that joint my friend.......


Pass it over to me


Trudeau Liberals Keep Lead, Even After Leader's Pot Admission, Polls Suggest


----------



## groovetube

and the cons look like dishonest politicians even further because the majority knows the war on pot is a total sham, and an extremely expensive sham at that.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Don't bogart that joint my friend.......
> 
> 
> Pass it over to me
> 
> 
> Trudeau Liberals Keep Lead, Even After Leader's Pot Admission, Polls Suggest


Why would that be a surprise? Justin Trudeau's wife is about to pop out another brat.


----------



## groovetube

New fees for international touring musicians threaten smaller clubs and live venues across Canada

Wow. This is just starting to get reported on in my circles. 



> ...Citizenship and Immigration’s assertions that the new rules were designed, in part, “to ensure that owners and managers of those types of establishments look to hire Canadians first before hiring temporary foreign workers.”


Wow. What... a bunch of morons. Having had very extensive experience with obtaining long term permits to play stateside over the last few decades, it's been my experience that when the US ups their side, it's the Canadian Musicians who lose, and they lose BIG.

Thanks Mr Kenny. What a way to show your utter and complete incompetence and total ignorance in doing anything for Canadian hard working musicians.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> New fees for international touring musicians threaten smaller clubs and live venues across Canada
> 
> Wow. This is just starting to get reported on in my circles.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. What... a bunch of morons. Having had very extensive experience with obtaining long term permits to play stateside over the last few decades, it's been my experience that when the US ups their side, it's the Canadian Musicians who lose, and they lose BIG.
> 
> Thanks Mr Kenny. What a way to show your utter and complete incompetence and total ignorance in doing anything for Canadian hard working musicians.


Read this earlier today. Brutal.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> New fees for international touring musicians threaten smaller clubs and live venues across Canada
> 
> Wow. This is just starting to get reported on in my circles.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. What... a bunch of morons. Having had very extensive experience with obtaining long term permits to play stateside over the last few decades, it's been my experience that when the US ups their side, it's the Canadian Musicians who lose, and they lose BIG.
> 
> Thanks Mr Kenny. What a way to show your utter and complete incompetence and total ignorance in doing anything for Canadian hard working musicians.


Hmmmm. Harper govt is being protectionist?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The last bit of this report concerning the 86 year old being discouraged from voting speaks to the heart of the matter. Jail time for all involved please. 

Robocalls investigator


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hmmmm. Harper govt is being protectionist?


They are creating jobs for unemployed Canadian musicians!


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> They are creating jobs for unemployed Canadian musicians!


Actually, it doesn't. But more to the point, such a levy could be argued to be in contravention of NAFTA under two counts.... 1- it's a non-tarrif trade barrier, 2- it does not support "National Treatment".


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Actually, it doesn't. But more to the point, such a levy could be argued to be in contravention of NAFTA under two counts.... 1- it's a non-tarrif trade barrier, 2- it does not support "National Treatment".


As though you support NAFTA!


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> As though you support NAFTA!


Since I was involved with it's roll-out, yes I do support NAFTA.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Actually, it doesn't. But more to the point, such a levy could be argued to be in contravention of NAFTA under two counts.... 1- it's a non-tarrif trade barrier, 2- it does not support "National Treatment".


yes, anyone who knows anything about this issue knows that this is an incredibly bone headed move that could really destroy a lot of Canadian jobs. Not just for musicians, but the supporting jobs as well. Not to mention playing chicken with the US on protectionism (which in the past few decades has proven to be a losing move for Canada big time) results in Canadians losing more access to a very large and lucrative US market. 

Incredibly stupid.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Since I was involved with it's roll-out, yes I do support NAFTA.


Just calling you out as a closet libertarian. Personally, I don't support the legislation. Did you support RBC's decision to import foreign workers for Toronto positions?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Just calling you out as a closet libertarian. Personally, I don't support the legislation. Did you support RBC's decision to import foreign workers for Toronto positions?


First, I am not a Libertarian, and I find that group potentially destructive. Second the RBC question is not germane to the topic at hand which is governmental levy, probably passed via an OIC


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> First, I am not a Libertarian, and I find that group potentially destructive. Second the RBC question is not germane to the topic at hand which is governmental levy, probably passed via an OIC


Free trade is a libertarian economic proposal. 

The issue with the musicians--and RBC--is the free exchange of labour between countries. I see no reason to be selective just because someone tootles a flute instead of wielding a keyboard.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> First, I am not a Libertarian, and I find that group potentially destructive.* Second the RBC question is not germane to the topic at hand which is governmental levy, probably passed via an OIC*


exactly. The two issues are not even closely related.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa looking

I guess the conservatives have read the polls and realized that the majority know how we've dealt with pot and throwing hundreds of millions at it simply isn't working.


----------



## SINC

This will change nothing as police already do just that. A ticket for users with small amounts is common here.


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps it's different in Alberta, but I know here that's simply not the case. Either the cop lets you go, or you are charged with possession, there is no ticket option as the article says.

What is the ticket in Alberta? I've not heard of a ticket for possessing pot.


----------



## eMacMan

Heard King Harpo on the lame-stream saying that young Trudeau showed very bad judgement. Have to think he was worried about a politician telling a truth, in this case about using pot.

Pretty sure the PM would never do something like that, telling a truth that is.








More importantly while our Parliamentarians are out for a perogi lunch, the PM seems to be indicating that he will shovel Canadian taxpayers dollars into a Syrian black hole. This even though both the UK parliament and the US Congress are saying nyet. Now how could anyone have possibly seen that one coming.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Free trade is a libertarian economic proposal.


Is it now? The roots of free trade were developed in Adam Smith's critique of mercantilism.
Smith was a liberal.

In the modern context, free trade agreements are negotiated between governments. There are no libertarian governments, so it's quite a stretch to credit shallow libertarianism for free trade.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Is it now? The roots of free trade were developed in Adam Smith's critique of mercantilism.
> Smith was a liberal.
> 
> In the modern context, free trade agreements are negotiated between governments. There are no libertarian governments, so it's quite a stretch to credit shallow libertarianism for free trade.


It is the full flowering of shallow mercantilism. It occurs when men put away childish things.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It is the full flowering of shallow mercantilism. It occurs when men put away childish things.


"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."


----------



## eMacMan

Looks like we will be able to see for ourselves if the world will end if MJ is decriminalized.

Soused of da border the feds are not going to interfere with the new CO and WA rules.



> For generations, pot crusaders have called for an end to the nation's prohibition of marijuana, citing everything from what they say are the government's exaggerated claims about its dangers to the racial disparities in who gets busted for drug possession.
> 
> Now, they will get their chance in Colorado and Washington state to show that legalizing pot is better, less costly and more humane than the last 75 years of prohibition — all with the federal government's blessing.
> 
> 
> In a sweeping new policy statement, the Justice Department said Thursday it will not stand in the way of states that want to legalize, tax and regulate marijuana as voters in Washington and Colorado did last fall, as long as there are effective controls to keep marijuana away from kids, the black market and federal property.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Looks like we will be able to see for ourselves if the world will end if MJ is decriminalized.
> 
> Soused of da border the feds are not going to interfere with the new CO and WA rules.


Well there's already examples of it, and the world didn't end for them. Personally I don't smoke pot, though I did when I was much younger, and even if legalized, I'm not about to start anytime soon. It's just time to end the colossal waste of tax payers money.


----------



## groovetube

Jean Denis Frechette named Canada's new parliamentary budget officer | CTV News



> "Between his training as an economist, his experience in serving parliamentarians and managing others who do, and his respect for Parliament, Mr. Frechette will do a fine job as parliamentary budget officer," government House Leader Peter Van Loan said in a statement.


Great!



> Frechette, however, has apparently never been involved in developing or analyzing a federal budget.


Oh I see. He's perfect!

WOuldn't want anyone asking too many questions now! :lmao:


----------



## i-rui

pretty clear the idea by Harper is to neuter the office of this watchdog


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yes. There seems to be quite a bit of turbulence even among the CON supporters. 

All good. 2 more years though.


----------



## groovetube

Two Canadian warships collide during exercise manoeuvres en route to Hawaii | National Post

I had to laugh at the first comment I saw:



> I think the Navy has one ship left, but Peter MacKay is using it at the cottage.


:lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another Harper failure. #notfittolead

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...ing-nowhere-fast-221998321.html?device=mobile


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another Harper failure. #notfittolead
> 
> Harper's vaunted Arctic naval refuelling station going nowhere fast - Winnipeg Free Press


Skippy, you never read past the headline. This is the bitter harvest of simply parroting a news aggregator headline harvester.




> "The Russians have 10 bases, you would hope we could at least get one going," said Rob Huebert, an Arctic expert.
> 
> However, he added that officials are right to insist the company complete the remediation because it would be a "horrendously expensive exercise" if the federal government took over.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yawn.


----------



## Macfury

I love it when you sow the seeds of your own humiliation!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yawn II


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yawn II


.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Look out below in Ontari-ari-ari-O

Tory support collapsing as Liberals make gains with Ontario, ethnic, older voters | hilltimes.com


----------



## groovetube

Ontario pledges $2M annually to keep Experimental Lakes research area open | 680News

excellent news!


----------



## groovetube

Libertarianism gone wild?

‘Sovereign citizen’ movement worrying officials as 30,000 claim they ‘freed’ themselves from Canada’s laws | National Post



> “It appeals to the angry male whose life isn’t working out very well,”


Interesting


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Libertarianism gone wild?
> 
> ‘Sovereign citizen’ movement worrying officials as 30,000 claim they ‘freed’ themselves from Canada’s laws | National Post
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting


With jails becoming more crowded these angry sons of freedom will be getting a first hand view of tax payer dollars at work. 

I assume the laggards do not get registered on a voting list...at least I hope they don't.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> With jails becoming more crowded these angry sons of freedom will be getting a first hand view of tax payer dollars at work.
> 
> I assume the laggards do not get registered on a voting list...at least I hope they don't.


Of course they're registered on voting lists--just as much as people who are on the dole!


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> With jails becoming more crowded these angry sons of freedom will be getting a first hand view of tax payer dollars at work.
> 
> I assume the laggards do not get registered on a voting list...at least I hope they don't.


well if they were on voting lists, that would be pretty hypocritical. I also assume they use their little area doctors or makeshift hospitals. No taxes, no healthcare.

t'would be a shame if one of them had a heart attack or similar. Just dig a hole like they did in them olden times...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Steve Harper? A twerk?

http://thelapine.ca/harper-says-he-twerks-occasionally-thinks-it-means-tweeting/


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Steve Harper? A twerk?
> 
> Harper Says He Twerks Occasionally — Thinks It Means Tweeting | THE LAPINE


You DO KNOW this is not serious right?????

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Verizon not entering Canada's wireless market - Politics - CBC News

Is that a 'POP! SSSSSSSSSSssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss I hear?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ouch! How would you like to be Frechette after Ivison dumps all over new Harper PBO !
John Ivison: Unlike Kevin Page, the new PBO may be less interested in where the bodies are buried | National Post


----------



## groovetube

Interesting that the conservatives would so quietly announce this on a long weekend.

You'd think that this so important oversight mechanism, trumpeted by the same party to prevent something like adscam from occurring again, would be a proud announcement.

My how things have changed!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Hey when's the expiry date on blaming it on a previous govt?*

Whew dawggie. Get a whiff of this one.

Cyclone helicopter contract revisions urged by report - Politics - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

Ask Obama & crew. Term & a half later, still working for them...


----------



## groovetube

Pot back to kettle: Now it’s David Orchard’s turn | iPolitics

Very interesting read. Not written by a biased 'journalist' either...


----------



## groovetube

Canada’s economy on ‘path to mediocrity’ as innovation lags, Conference Board says | Financial Post

One thing that caught my eye beyond the obvious point in the lack of R&D, was this:



> While the time is right for Canadian businesses and governments to seek new ventures and markets, the Conference Board said the required steps aren’t being taken to be competitive citing that businesses under invest in technologies, new machinery and equipment and in staff training.


I had thought this was what the huge corporate tax cuts were for.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Hankee Pankee with Mr. Victim's rights*

Egad! Not another CON senator! They're falling like flies.

Google Translate


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Egad! Not another CON senator! They're falling like flies.


Dis someone fall? It's a shame when people get old.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dis someone fall? It's a shame when people get old.


A fall from grace???


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> A fall from grace???


I think her name was Isabelle!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I think her name was Isabelle!


----------



## Lawrence

Harper


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence, 

1. while I don't agree with Conservative spending it has been consistently lower than that proposed by the other two major parties--an election was averted by raising stimulus spending to just a fraction of what was demanded by the Liberals and NDP. The national debt was $458 billion in 2009. Adjusted for inflation that's $487 billion today. It's projected to be $600 billion this year. Adjusted for inflation, that's about 20 per cent higher, not double.

2. Canadian household debt should be calculated as a percentage of earnings, not in absolute terms, for accurate comparison. In 2008, it was about 1.4 to 1. Right now it's about 1.62 to 1. However, much of that was fueled by cheap lending rates, not desperation. The number is also declining.

What Explains Trends in Household Debt in Canada? - Bank of Canada

3. According to _Hungercount 2012_, 676,000 people used a food bank in Canada in 2008. 882,000 used a food bank in 2012. However, the population rose about 5% during that time. I would estimate use increased about 25% (though I'm not sure what "use" means--one visit?).


----------



## Rps

Okay lets get real here What ever the reason this government has spent more than the prior Liberal one. Not a band wagon position on my part just a fact, you can adjust figures to support anything. 2. The only debt that matters is a country's total debt..sooner or later it has to be paid so the total debt of the nation divided by the population should be your only ratio. Finally, having worked in food banks, many are served who do not actually need to be there.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Okay lets get real here What ever the reason this government has spent more than the prior Liberal one.


Yes. Ignatieff wanted Harper to spend even more or he would threaten to overturn the government. I don't like the current spending levels. However, do you believe that either the Liberals or NDP would have been fiscal hawks during this same period? How do the spending levels compare to those of other Western democracies?



Rps said:


> 2. The only debt that matters is a country's total debt..sooner or later it has to be paid so the total debt of the nation divided by the population should be your only ratio.


Then it would be even less, since I didn't work in the 5% population increase.



Rps said:


> Finally, having worked in food banks, many are served who do not actually need to be there.


Right, I agree. However, I was just using the available figures. Having checked the methodology, the study tracks unique users (who only need to show up once), but also add "meals and snacks" produced by other agencies. As far as I can tell, each meal and each snack is counted as an additional unique user which is really bad methodology and likely double-counts significantly.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Okay lets get real here What ever the reason this government has spent more than the prior Liberal one. Not a band wagon position on my part just a fact, you can adjust figures to support anything. 2. The only debt that matters is a country's total debt..sooner or later it has to be paid so the total debt of the nation divided by the population should be your only ratio. Finally, having worked in food banks, many are served who do not actually need to be there.


Let me guess. A flurry of 'the other guy woulda'...

The truth is, facts don't lie. This government, has spent way more than the previous liberals, and had us going into deficit -before- the economic downturn occurred. Which kind of takes the life out of the arguments that the opposition forced them into a deficit, since that stated occurring before the downturn.

We have a vast number of examples, of this government recklessly spending huge sums of money on promoting themselves in the latest adscam which is turning out to be far more than the liberals scam, this government simply perfected what the liberals did wrong and took it further.

without wading into partisan politics, that's what has actually happened. Not a bunch of woulda/coulda malarky.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Yes. Ignatieff wanted Harper to spend even more or he would threaten to overturn the government. I don't like the current spending levels. However, do you believe that either the Liberals or NDP would have been fiscal hawks during this same period?


This. The truth. 

Iggy (and to a lessor degree Layton), forced the hand that spent the money and accumulated the deficit we now must live with. Proven over and over again.


----------



## i-rui

did Ignatieff and Layton force Harper to spend $100+ million on economic action plan commercials?

did those commercials say that Ignatieff and Layton were responsible for the economic action plan? 

I remember them being conservative party propaganda espousing the virtues of the wonderful action plan the conservatives gifted us all with. funny that.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> I remember them being conservative party propaganda espousing the virtues of the wonderful action plan the conservatives gifted us all with. funny that.


What is funny, funny odd that is, is that Iggy and Jack set off the spending cycle in billions. The millions that followed were no more or less than spent by previous governing parties.


----------



## groovetube

Jack and Iggy were in opposition.

They had no final say in spending any of it.

That, is the truth. As was said before, Harper and co had us going in to deficit before the economic downturn.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> What is funny, funny odd that is, is that Iggy and Jack set off the spending cycle in billions. *The millions that followed were no more or less than spent by previous governing parties.*


incorrect.



> In 2005-06, Ottawa spent $41.3 million on advertising, a number the government has roughly doubled in every year since Stephen Harper took office in January 2006.
> 
> The Conservatives — who rode to power in part due to the Liberal sponsorship scandal and government advertising corruption — spent more than half a billion dollars, $548.6 million, on advertising through their first six years in office.
> 
> In 2010-11, Ottawa’s ad budget was $83.3 million, including almost $23 million on the Economic Action Plan. That was well down from 2009-10, when $136.3-million in total advertising included $53.2 million on the action plan.


Feds spent $21M on Economic Action Plan ads in 2011-12: annual report - From The Wires - Macleans.ca


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> Feds spent $21M on Economic Action Plan ads in 2011-12: annual report - From The Wires - Macleans.ca


There's no excuse. Conservatives try the 'it's the other guy's fault thing', but the liberals spent what they spent not because anyone made them. The same goes for Harper.

Are we to believe, that Harper is not in control, and allows members not in government to make spending decisions for him???


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Are the natives getting restless?

An accurate critique.

Harper


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More to hide Harper?

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/3907426?utm_hp_ref=tw


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A hole -

"Neil Young should stage a benefit concert for Fort McMurray" says Jason Kenney on Power Play.


----------



## screature

A really great article jimbo... that one is a keeper.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A hole -
> 
> "Neil Young should stage a benefit concert for Fort McMurray" says Jason Kenney on Power Play.


As much as I like Neil Young's music (and I don't like it all by any means) yes, I agree he can be an a-hole at times.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Move aside Cortez*

"Harper The Killer"

He came dancing across the water
With his galleons and guns
Looking for the new world
In that palace in the sun.

On the shore lay Montezuma
With his coca leaves and pearls
In his halls he often wondered
With the secrets of the worlds.

And his subjects
gathered 'round him
Like the leaves around a tree
In their clothes of many colors
For the angry gods to see.

And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood
straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on.

Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones.

They carried them
to the flatlands
And they died along the way
But they built up
with their bare hands
What we still can't do today.

And I know she's living there
And she loves me to this day
I still can't remember when
Or how I lost my way.

He came dancing across the water
Harper, Harper
What a killer.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A hole -
> 
> "Neil Young should stage a benefit concert for Fort McMurray" says Jason Kenney on Power Play.


ha ha. Kenny starting a war with Neil Young. Not sure that's the popularity contest Kenny wants to start...


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More to hide Harper?
> 
> NHS Low-Income Results, Census Estimates Cannot Be Compared: StatsCan


I applauded the decision to remove mandatory participation and still do, be damned if the data cannot be compared. It will be comparable in the years ahead. With policy change for freedom comes data change. A worthwhile cost for the removal of the heavy hand of former governments and the trimming of the power of StatsCan. :clap:

As for Neil Young, his opinion is worthless.


----------



## groovetube

what power did statscan have?


----------



## SINC

To take you to court for refusing to fill out the census forms.


----------



## groovetube

oh. I thought there was some other power that I wasn't aware of.

Some people don't want to fill them out I guess. I've never worried about it. Especially in light of the fact that government agencies already take plenty more information than the census forms would ever have without my permission.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> I applauded the decision to remove mandatory participation and still do, be damned if the data cannot be compared. *It will be comparable in the years ahead*. With policy change for freedom comes data change. A worthwhile cost for the removal of the heavy hand of former governments and the trimming of the power of StatsCan. :clap:
> 
> As for Neil Young, his opinion is worthless.


Exactly.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh. I thought there was some other power that I wasn't aware of.
> 
> Some people don't want to fill them out I guess. I've never worried about it. *Especially in light of the fact that government agencies already take plenty more information than the census forms would ever have without my permission.*


Seems to beg the question... If that is the case, then why do we need the census at all?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Seems to beg the question... If that is the case, then why do we need the census at all?


I suppose that may be true.

I was wondering why anyone has a problem with government census forms in light of the fact they collect a lot more personal information whether you like it or not.

I'd say that's a much bigger issue. Just my opinion.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More to hide Harper?


The census has been discussed at length on these boards. Not saying it can't again, but it's been done.

One widespread opinion was that is was a joke anyway, due to all the misleading answers respondents furnished. A prime example is the number of people who claimed that "Jedi Knight" was their religion. Also, I told the story then of a guy I know who would fill out his long form livestock quantities as 7 cows, 7 horses, goats, sheep, chickens, whatever, then list the total animals as 7.

Census data has always been questionable.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> "Harper The Killer"
> 
> He came dancing across the water
> With his galleons and guns
> Looking for the new world
> In that palace in the sun.


Kids used to fool with lyrics like this when I was in junior high.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> To take you to court for refusing to fill out the census forms.


Read more: Stanley Cup riot hero charged for refusing to fill out 2011 census



> For the 2011 census, Statistics Canada referred 54 cases to the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. In 2006, Statistics Canada referred 64 cases to the Prosecution Service.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> I applauded the decision to remove mandatory participation and still do, be damned if the data cannot be compared. It will be comparable in the years ahead. With policy change for freedom comes data change. A worthwhile cost for the removal of the heavy hand of former governments and the trimming of the power of StatsCan. :clap:
> 
> *As for Neil Young, his opinion is worthless.*


I'm going to guess that there are way more people who listen to Neil Young than Harper and Co. Could ever dream of reaching.

I'm sure some people would like to write him off as an old hippie, but his fanbase is undeniably massive worldwide.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I'm going to guess that there are way more people who listen to Neil Young than Harper and Co. Could ever dream of reaching.
> 
> I'm sure some people would like to write him off as an old hippie, but his fanbase is undeniably massive worldwide.


That may be, but to me he is exactly how you describe him, *an old hippie*. Never did have any use for him or his music.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> That may be, but to me he is exactly how you describe him, *an old hippie*. Never did have any use for him or his music.


That's too bad. Despite his politic that you may not agree with, he is an outstanding songwriter. He is though, probably an 'old hippie'


----------



## SINC

Each to their own. I was always pretty good at picking losers.


----------



## groovetube

Eek! Remind me not to vote for who you're voting for


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Each to their own. I was always pretty good at picking losers.


I'm always amazed that people think a musician has some sort of special intelligence regarding politics that makes their opinion special. May as well ask MC Hammer or Bert Kaempfert what they think of things.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No room for the critical. 

http://www.calgaryherald.com/touch/story.html?id=8900060


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Boondoggle!*

$1 Billion and nothing to show for it from the competent manager crew - Harper Govt.

Troubled helicopter deal has already cost Ottawa more than $1-billion - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> No room for the critical.
> 
> Fort McMurray radio station bans Neil Young after rocker blasts oilsands


ha ha ha. The radio trackers are probably on the floor laughing so hard.

fort mcmurry's goona take down neil young!!!!!!!:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> No room for the critical.
> 
> Fort McMurray radio station bans Neil Young after rocker blasts oilsands


NO room for the vapid and critical.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> $1 Billion and nothing to show for it from the competent manager crew - Harper Govt.


You'd better go back a few years in history, say 1993, & learn about the beginning of Canada's helicopter boondoggles by Cretin & Crew. Is your memory that selective or are you just too young to recall?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> You'd better go back a few years in history, say 1993, & learn about the beginning of Canada's helicopter boondoggles by Cretin & Crew. Is your memory that selective or are you just too young to recall?


He'd have to think back to before he got banned as Jimbotelecom.


----------



## FeXL

Ahhhhh...things are much clearer now.

In that case, it is selective memory...


----------



## groovetube

> “Now of course, I don’t, you know, I don’t drink alcohol, but I have lots of friends who do,” Stephen Harper


:lmao:


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> :lmao:


Taking a sip of the local product for a photo-op at the brewery in Ireland is hardly the same thing as "drinking".


----------



## mrjimmy

heavyall said:


> Taking a sip of the local product for a photo-op at the brewery in Ireland is hardly the same thing as "drinking".


So I guess just puffing on a joint doesn't count either.


----------



## SINC

Would only a joint puffer would know that? I sure don't.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Would only a joint puffer would know that? I sure don't.


:lmao:

Was that some type of dig? You're so cute. Do you think it even remotely matters to me what you think?

:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

somehow we've quickly gotten off track from Harper's little white lie. What about the beers he has jamming at his house?

And by the looks of that half empty pint of Guinness, he's doing a lot more than sipping! :lmao:


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Was that some type of dig? You're so cute. Do you think it even remotely matters to me what you think?
> 
> :lmao:


No, not at all. With zero experience with illegal drug use, I was just curious.


----------



## screature

When did Stephen Harper ever say he never had a drink???

Quite frankly I find the misbegotten hyperbole of some rather amusing...

Seems like some posts are more relevant to the poster than they are to those who they are posting about... IMHO (in my most humble opinion)... lest anyone forget that I am merely expressing my personal opinion and not that of some other body from which I receive "talking points".


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> somehow we've quickly gotten off track from Harper's little white lie. What about the beers he has jamming at his house?
> 
> And by the looks of that half empty pint of Guinness, he's doing a lot more than sipping! :lmao:


That is a silly assumption on your part. How do you know that it wasn't a third of a glass pour to simply taste the product? Just because he's an amateur musician doesn't mean he drinks like a drummer.


----------



## groovetube

Sigh. Sinc. Speaking of assumptions... 

I won't insinuate you're a drunk, please don't do it to others.

It's well known he jams and has a beer with the boys. There's pictures of it. 

Unless he has just admitted he has faked the whole thing, including the shot I attached? Really?

That's really just as dishonest to me.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Sigh. Sinc. Speaking of assumptions...
> 
> I won't insinuate you're a drunk, please don't do it to others.
> 
> It's well known he jams and has a beer with the boys. There's pictures of it.
> 
> Unless he has just admitted he has faked the whole thing, including the shot I attached? Really?
> 
> That's really just as dishonest to me.


Then don't make insinuations to begin with. You obviously do not enjoy it when the table is turned on you.


----------



## groovetube

I didn't insinuate Harper was a drunk, or drank in excess. 

All I was pointing to, was that he said he didn't "drink alcohol", and there's pictures of him drinking alcohol.

Given the clear pictures, what have I insinuated beyond what's clearly depicted in those pictures to deserve your accusations like that?

Don't like the post? Try addressing the post, not the poster. It makes for more peace.


----------



## groovetube

hmmmmm


----------



## mrjimmy

Saucy!


----------



## Macfury

Harper never said he doesn't drink. Considering the original comment was a joke based on the usual marijuana admissions I don't see the point of collecting these photos---but if one has time on their hands, I guess any pursuit fills one's dreary days.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> ...but if one has time on their hands, I guess any pursuit fills one's dreary days.


Like 25000+ posts?


----------



## Macfury

25,000 _excellent_ posts!


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Like 25000+ posts?


:lmao:

I'm not sure who originally compiled the image I found on facebook. But I bet it took less time than 25,000 posts! :lmao:


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Like 25000+ posts?





Macfury said:


> 25,000 _excellent_ posts!





groovetube said:


> :lmao:
> 
> I'm not sure who originally compiled the image I found on facebook. But I bet it took less time than 25,000 posts! :lmao:


So are you suggesting that the total of post counts makes one eligible for derision??? 

It seems to me Dr.G. received an award for his post count and yet based on the same criteria MF should be derided for having a large number of posts...

Complete hypocrisy...

It seems that to some all that matters is who is making the post and not the number of posts being made by any individual.

So long as you agree with the content of the posts being made by an individual they could be one million.... But if 25K posts are made by someone with whom you disagree with the number of posts seems to become an issue. 

I call shenanigans.


----------



## Macfury

I defend Dr. G. as a man who has not wasted his time in posting often, regardless of these attacks.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> So are you suggesting that the total of post counts makes one eligible for derision???
> 
> It seems to me Dr.G. received an award for his post count and yet based on the same criteria MF should be derided for having a large number of posts...
> 
> Complete hypocrisy...
> 
> All that matters to you lot is who is making the posts and not the number of posts being made by any individual.
> 
> So long as you agree with the content of the posts being made by an individual they could be one million.... But if 25K posts are made by someone with whom you disagree with the number of posts seems to become an issue.
> 
> I call shenanigans.


you once again jumped in too fast.

It was in response to said individual's derision that some unknown person would waste their time creating a collage of Stephen Harper pics.

What hypocrisy? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

screature, your effort to play Henry Higgins here is laudable, but you don't have the same raw material to work with.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> you once again jumped in too fast.
> 
> It was in response to said individual's derision that some unknown person would waste their time creating a collage of Stephen Harper pics.
> 
> What hypocrisy? :lmao:


Hmm, am I the only poster who knows who the poster was that posted that collage? Apparently he doesn't even know what he posts himself.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Hmm, am I the only poster who knows who the poster was that posted that collage? Apparently he doesn't even know what he posts himself.


Perhaps he think that blocking other members makes him invisible.


----------



## groovetube

Well since everyone seems to have had 10 seconds to post in this thread, I can only assume the mockery was pointed at whomever took the time to assemble the collage.

Yet another topic, successfully headed down the road of stupid.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *you once again jumped in too fast.*
> 
> It was in response to said individual's derision that some unknown person would waste their time creating a collage of Stephen Harper pics.
> 
> What hypocrisy? :lmao:


Seriously? I watch what is going on here a whole helluva a lot more than you do lately before posting.

I think I know exactly what your agenda is, especially here.

Don't you have a couple of day time jobs after all and another place to call home? 

Why do you feel the need to continue to disrupt this place when it was so unsavory that you felt the need to participate in the creation of a new place?

Why can't you just have the dignity of your co-conspirators and just disappear into the night?

I mean seriously? Why continue to be a PITA here and harass people that you have no respect for?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Seriously? I watch what is going on here a whole helluva a lot more than you do lately before posting.
> 
> I think I know exactly what your agenda is, especially here.
> 
> Don't you have a couple of day time jobs after all and another place to call home?
> 
> Why do you feel the need to continue to disrupt this place when it was so unsavory that you felt the need to participate in the creation of a new place?
> 
> Why can't you just have the dignity of your co-conspirators and just disappear into the night?
> 
> I mean seriously? Why continue to be a PITA here and harass people that you have no respect for?


How have I disrupted this place? 

And whom am I harassing?

It seems to me you're showing up here with nothing on topic, except to call people names and accuse people of stuff.

I simply made posts on topic about stephen harper. It's others who got personal and now it's derailed.

As usual.

Oh and if you did read the thread, it wasn't I that originally pulled out his post count.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I defend Dr. G. as a man who has not wasted his time in posting often, regardless of these attacks.


Merci, mon ami. I have received no awards to date. Paix.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Merci, mon ami. I have received no awards to date. Paix.


Not to worry G, I think he was busy attacking someone else and they bit back. Not sure why he wants to draw you into this usual muck. 

Now to get back on topic.

John Ivison: Mulcair may swap unpopular ‘job-killing’ carbon tax for steep hike in corporate rate | National Post

Interesting switch. The cons and corps will begin screaming that it will kill jobs and make them go away. But there's one slight problem, after giving in to them with massive tax breaks, they didn't really create many jobs at all, as promised, rather they just hoarded the cash.

And people are smart enough to have figured this all out.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Merci, mon ami. I have received no awards to date. Paix.


The mayor bestowed one upon you did he not? The MacNutt award I believe.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> somehow we've quickly gotten off track from Harper's little white lie. What about the beers he has jamming at his house?
> 
> And by the looks of that half empty pint of Guinness, he's doing a lot more than sipping! :lmao:





groovetube said:


> :lmao:





groovetube said:


> Sigh. Sinc. Speaking of assumptions...
> 
> I won't insinuate you're a drunk, please don't do it to others.
> 
> It's well known he jams and has a beer with the boys. There's pictures of it.
> 
> Unless he has just admitted he has faked the whole thing, including the shot I attached? Really?
> 
> That's really just as dishonest to me.





groovetube said:


> hmmmmm





groovetube said:


> Well since everyone seems to have had 10 seconds to post in this thread, I can only assume the mockery was pointed at whomever took the time to assemble the collage.
> 
> *Yet another topic, successfully headed down the road of stupid.*


What was really stupid is that the comment:

"Now of course, I don't, you know, I don't drink alcohol, but I have lots of friends who do," made by Harper was taken seriously and used completely out of context. 

It was obviously a joke as noted in the in the Times Colonist.



> WEST KELOWNA, B.C. - Prime Minister Stephen Harper called upon the ghost of Sir John A. Macdonald during a comic but partisan foray into British Columbia's marijuana debate.
> 
> Harper cracked some jokes Friday evening during a barbecue attended by about 600 people at the Quails’ Gate winery in West Kelowna, not far from where Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau announced in late July that he supported the legalization, taxation and regulation of marijuana.
> 
> A debate on marijuana legalization is currently taking place in the province. Pot activist Dana Larsen is trying to use initiative legislation to propose a law that would decriminalize marijuana by preventing police from enforcing simple possession laws.
> 
> Just minutes into his speech, Harper referred to Macdonald who, according to the Parliament of Canada's website, was elected to represent Victoria, B.C., in Ottawa in September 1878.
> 
> "Sir John A. spoke to British Columbians about the things that matter, about jobs and prosperity, about a Canada united and strong, about economic growth not grow-ops, about a national dream, not a pipe dream."
> 
> The crack drew applause and laughter from the crowd.
> 
> Yet, Macdonald's reputation was far from pure, as anecdotes abounded in the 19th Century of the politician swilling gin in the Commons and vomiting on the hustings. "Better John A. drunk than George Brown sober" was a political slogan of his day.
> 
> Still, Harper thanked fellow Conservatives who were behind a bill that will allow him to bring B.C. wine back to Ottawa.
> 
> "Now of course, I don't, you know, I don't drink alcohol, but I have lots of friends who do," said Harper...


That anyone would think that the PM, (knowing full well that he himself drinks, knows that he has been seen and photographed doing so) was being serious, well let's just say it shows how far they will go to try and discredit the man.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The mayor bestowed one upon you did he not? The MacNutt award I believe.


The OP clearly stated that people with high post counts were wasting their time.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> That anyone would think that the PM, (knowing full well that he himself drinks, knows that he has been seen and photographed doing so) was being serious, well let's just say it shows how far they will go to try and discredit the man.


This is known as Harper Derangement Syndrome, suffered by two or three on EhMac.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> The mayor bestowed one upon you did he not? The MacNutt award I believe.


Yes, which I was then to pass on to Sinc when he passed 50,000 posts, but the award never arrived. C'est la vie. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, which I was then to pass on to Sinc when he passed 50,000 posts, *but the award never arrived*. C'est la vie. Paix, mon ami.


Awe that's too bad.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Awe that's too bad.


At the time, John was going through hectic times, so the thought was enough. Paix, mon ami.

Now, back to the main focus of this thread. I can't wait for the next federal election. I love the "thrill of politics" and voting.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> What was really stupid is that the comment:
> 
> "Now of course, I don't, you know, I don't drink alcohol, but I have lots of friends who do," made by Harper was taken seriously and used completely out of context.
> 
> It was obviously a joke as noted in the in the Times Colonist.
> 
> 
> 
> That anyone would think that the PM, (knowing full well that he himself drinks, knows that he has been seen and photographed doing so) was being serious, well let's just say it shows how far they will go to try and discredit the man.


Ah. There we go. On topic. That's better.

The truth is, both sides will go after anything to discredit the party they dislike. If people are honest that is


----------



## Macfury

Uneblieveable.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> both sides will go after anything to discredit the party they dislike. If people are honest that is


As you do. Isn't that basically trolling? Be honest now.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> As you do. Isn't that basically trolling? Be honest now.


I thought that was clear in my post, by saying, "*both* sides"?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> As you do. Isn't that basically trolling? Be honest now.


Yep that is pretty much what the political threads here are all about... getting up the ire of those with whom you disagree.

The truth be damned...

All that matters is "sticking it" to the party and the supporters thereof you wish to try and discredit [insert name here].

There should be an automated form... it would make things much simpler and faster.

Mo are you listening?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Yep that is pretty much what the political threads here are all about... getting up the ire of those with whom you disagree.
> 
> The truth be damned...
> 
> All that matters is "sticking it" to the party and the supporters thereof you wish to try and discredit [insert name here].
> 
> There should be an automated form... it would make things much simpler and faster.
> 
> Mo are you listening?


The truth is that only one side of the political spectrum on EhMac engages in this sort of behaviour--and then only one or two people.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Yep that is pretty much what the political threads here are all about... getting up the ire of those with whom you disagree.
> 
> The truth be damned...
> 
> All that matters is "sticking it" to the party and the supporters thereof you wish to try and discredit [insert name here].
> 
> There should be an automated form... it would make things much simpler and faster.
> 
> Mo are you listening?


Members 'raising the ire' of another here certainly isn't new. It's always the other guy eh? What's certainly noticeable is that while the liberals were in power, it was pretty much open season on them, complete with pet names etc. But now that Harper and co. are in power, this place turns to romper room if anyone posts anything negative of them.

Anyway. On the topic of Canadian politics...

Canadian scientists protest against government censorship | Science | theguardian.com

Not a new issue but somehow, with more info coming out on the reallocation of funds and their priorities, one can really see the Harper agenda taking shape. What I find galling, is that scientists paid with our tax dollars, cannot speak to Canadians, and the government, controls what they can and cannot say. Which yells covering up of information we should know.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The truth is that only one side of the political spectrum on EhMac engages in this sort of behavior--and then only one or two people.


Well I don't know about that. I can think of more than one or two on both sides of the political fence.

I think most of us who are engaged with things political have resorted to such behavior on occasion, myself included... It is part of the reason why the beejacon exists. 

But that being said, there are only a few that use the tactic as their principal means of discourse.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> But that being said, there are only a few that use the tactic as their principal means of discourse.


Agreed.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Well I don't know about that. I can think of more than one or two on both sides of the political fence.
> 
> I think most of us who are engaged with things political have resorted to such behavior on occasion, myself included... It is part of the reason why the beejacon exists.
> 
> But that being said, there are only a few that use the tactic as their principal means of discourse.


Yes there 'ladyluck', pointing fingers and whining makes for a better thread. Maybe you should make another user account posing a woman to stir things like you did at the other forum.

Hopefully when a few are done licking each other's behinds over whose most at fault, things can get back to Canadian Politics.


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yes there 'ladyluck', pointing fingers and whining makes for a better thread. Maybe you should make another user account posing a woman to stir things like you did at the other forum.
> 
> Hopefully when a few are done licking each other's behinds over whose most at fault, things can get back to Canadian Politics.


Gheez you don't know when to quit when people are agreeing with you do you, you just keep on your merry trashing ways. 

That you and and your cohorts can't understand why ladyluck came into being only shows that you have no clue.

You and your cohorts wanted to dominate this place and when you couldn't you took your ball and said "f**k you guys, I'm going home."

ladyluck existed to expose your hypocrisy which she did quite successfully.

She got booted which I fully expected and really didn't give a rat's ass about... notice how I never came crawling back like you did here on ehMac!!!

Why don't you just blow off now and leave the rest of us here alone now that you have a place of your own to call home and give up your trolling ways... 

Oh I know why. Because it is in your nature and you can't live without confrontation despite your lame attempts to proclaim the opposite.

Your cohorts have had the dignity and intellectual integrity to leave. Now why don't you?


----------



## SINC

One last troll?



groovetube said:


> Hopefully when a few are done licking each other's behinds over whose most at fault, things can get back to Canadian Politics.


Trolls have dignity? Who knew?



screature said:


> Your cohorts have had the dignity and intellectual integrity to leave. Now why don't you?


The bridge awaits.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Gheez you don't know when to quit when people are agreeing with you do you, you just keep on your merry trashing ways.
> 
> That you and and your cohorts can't understand why ladyluck came into being only shows that you have no clue.
> 
> You and your cohorts wanted to dominate this place and when you couldn't you took you rball and said "f**k you guys, I'm going home."
> 
> ladyluck existed to expose your hypocrisy which she did quite successfully.
> 
> She got booted which I fully expected and really didn't give a rat's ass about... notice how I never came crawling back like you did here on ehMac!!!
> 
> Why don't you just blow off now and leave the rest of us here alone now that you have a place of your own to call home and give up your trolling ways...
> 
> Oh I know why. Because it is in your nature and you can't live without confrontation despite your lame attempts to proclaim the opposite.
> 
> Your cohorts have had the dignity and intellectual integrity to leave. Now why don't you?


Expose my hypocrisy? Ha ha ha. You tried to stir the pot and we were on to you the second you showed up. Anyway.

If you were agreeing with me, I apologize. I misread your post and went off on you needlessly.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> hmmmmm





groovetube said:


> I didn't insinuate Harper was a drunk, or drank in excess.
> 
> All I was pointing to, was that he said he didn't "drink alcohol", and there's pictures of him drinking alcohol.
> 
> Given the clear pictures, what have I insinuated beyond what's clearly depicted in those pictures to deserve your accusations like that?
> 
> Don't like the post? Try addressing the post, not the poster. It makes for more peace.


According to the photographic evidence regarding Mr. Stephen Harper it seems that he does imbibe alcoholic beverages, he's definitely drunk with power of his office.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> According to the photographic evidence regarding Mr. Stephen Harper it seems that he does imbibe alcoholic beverages, he's definitely drunk with power of his office.


Then he would be drunk with power, not alcoholic beverages.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> According to the photographic evidence regarding Mr. Stephen Harper it seems that he does imbibe alcoholic beverages, he's definitely drunk with power of his office.


Welcome back BigDL

He does drink, It was a joke.

End of story except for those who wish to continue to pick at a bone that has already been picked clean.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Welcome back BigDL
> 
> He does drink, It was a joke.
> 
> End of story except for those who wish to continue to pick at a bone that has already been picked clean.


BigDL doesn't read the other posts, because he uses the "ignore" function liberally. The thread is tabula rasa to him.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No way that pantywaiste Harper can down a low alcohol beverage without getting wasted and abusing his authority. 

Maybe that's the problem.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Back to business.

The CONS are running out of room to hide. We will soon find out who the liars are.

Mike Duffy visited PMO days after housing claims referred to auditors, documents show | canada.com


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The CONS are running out of room to hide. We will soon find out who the liars are.


The liars are the politicians, period. Unfortunately, this is not exclusively a Lieberal trait...


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Back to business.
> 
> The CONS are running out of room to hide. We will soon find out who the liars are.
> 
> Mike Duffy visited PMO days after housing claims referred to auditors, documents show | canada.com


The Conservative Government is not hiding.

The extra month off will produce a spectacular second half of Our Glorious Leader's rule. The Thorne Speech shall be fabulous...revolutionary. 

The 4 weeks of proroguement shall be worth the wait. It will be the biggest and bestess session of Parliament in the history of the Dominion. The term "The Dominion" is rumoured to be making a triumphant return to common usage, by decree of the Conservative Government, in the next Thrown Speech.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> The Conservative Government is not hiding.
> 
> The extra month off will produce a spectacular second half of Our Glorious Leader's rule. The Thorne Speech shall be fabulous...revolutionary.
> 
> The 4 weeks of proroguement shall be worth the wait. It will be the biggest and bestess session of Parliament in the history of the Dominion. The term "The Dominion" is rumoured to be making a triumphant return to common usage, by decree of the Conservative Government, in the next Thrown Speech.


^

Nice troll job. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

I've been hoping that the term Dominion would make a comeback for years.

Perhaps we'll see a return to Dominion Day instead of the crassly renamed "Canada Day"


----------



## screature

Just curious what do you find crass bout "Canada Day"?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Just curious what you find crass bout "Canada Day"?


It's like renaming Independence Day "America Day" by an order of Congress. It's got the reek of newspeak about it. As once critic put it, a term of "crushing banality."

It was also voted on and passed with only 12 members of the house present, a very sad way to see tradition tossed out the window.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's like renaming Independence Day "America Day" by an order of Congress. It's got the reek of newspeak about it. As once critic put it, a term of "crushing banality."
> *
> It was also voted on and passed with only 12 members of the house present, a very sad way to see tradition tossed out the window*.



Personally I think Dominion Day sounds rather anachronistic, harkening back to our colonial past. Canada Day is rather banal but I still prefer it.

Hmm.... I would like to see where that info comes from as 12 members in the House would not constitute quorum and so the vote could not be held.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Personally I think Dominion Day sounds rather anachronistic, harkening back to our colonial past. Canada Day rather banal but I still prefer it.


Dominion Day has a sense of majesty about it--one Dominion from sea to sea! A Mari Usque Ad Mare! One man's tradition is another man's anachronsim, however.




screature said:


> Hmm.... I would like to see where that info comes from as 12 members in the House would not constitute quorum and so the vote could not be held.


The quorum is counted at the beginning of the session. They had a quorum and voted on the bill after eight members had wandered off.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dominion Day has a sense of majesty about it--one Dominion from sea to sea! A Mari Usque Ad Mare! One man's tradition is another man's anachronsim, however.


Provehito in Altum (Launch forth into the deep)

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Sonal

Canada Day still beats out "Mutually agreed to part ways through a slow and civilized process" day!


----------



## Macfury

My favourite criticism of the term "Canada Day" is that saying it aloud sounds like someone rolling down the stairs and landing at the bottom.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Dominion Day has a sense of majesty about it--one Dominion from sea to sea! A Mari Usque Ad Mare! One man's tradition is another man's anachronsim, however.
> 
> The quorum is counted at the beginning of the session. They had a quorum and voted on the bill after eight members had wandered off.


Quorum is counted throughout the sitting of the House, if there is a quorum call then the bells ring until enough MPs come back into the House so that quorum is met.

A vote held without quorum is illegitimate and must be re-held with quorum in place so I really don't see how this could have happened that way.


----------



## Dr.G.

I have a neighbor, from Devon, England, who wanted us to switch back to Dominion Day and replace O Canada with The Maple Leaf Forever.

The Maple Leaf forever (original version) - YouTube

O Canada - YouTube

Of course, had events turned out differently in 1812, we could be wondering how to remember the last part of The Star Spangled Banner.

"O thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation.
Blest with victory and peace, may the Heaven rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

National Anthem of the United States of America - YouTube

Paix, mes amis. God Bless Canada.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> A vote held without quorum is illegitimate and must be re-held with quorum in place so I really don't see how this could have happened that way.


A member must call attention to the lack of a quorum for the vote to be considered illegitimate. The members wanted to be part of something historically significant, so they chose not to draw attention to the lack of quorum.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I have a neighbor, from Devon, England, who wanted us to switch back to Dominion Day and replace O Canada with The Maple Leaf Forever.
> 
> The Maple Leaf forever (original version) - YouTube
> 
> O Canada - YouTube
> 
> Of course, had events turned out differently in 1812, we could be wondering how to remember the last part of The Star Spangled Banner.
> 
> "O thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
> Between their loved home and the war's desolation.
> Blest with victory and peace, may the Heaven rescued land
> Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation!
> Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
> And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
> And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
> O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"
> 
> National Anthem of the United States of America - YouTube
> 
> Paix, mes amis. God Bless Canada.


And possibly long forgotten from elementary schools during the country's centennial year:

"God bless Canada, 
Country that I love
One red maple leaf
Standing there above
Keep us strong and free
Long live unity
Flag of Canada, 
May God bless thee."

When the original tree that inspired _The Maple Leaf Forever _was downed in a storm, I retrieved a small piece of its bark.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *A member must call attention to the lack of a quorum for the vote to be considered illegitimate.* The members wanted to be part of something historically significant, so they chose not to draw attention to the lack of quorum.


You could be right that those were the rules of the day... they certainly aren't now. 

Any House Leader (or any MP for that matter) from any Party can call a Point of Order to have a vote revoked due to a lack of quorum. 

At any rate I am glad that we don't celebrate Dominion Day and we do celebrate Canada Day... it may not be the best title, but to me I want to celebrate Canada as a country and not some legal concept.

Any country that has independence from a former governing nation can have a "Dominion Day"... there can be only one Canada Day.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Any country that has independence from a former governing nation can have a "Dominion Day"... there can be only one Canada Day.


Any country that has independence from a former governing nation can have an "Independence Day"... there could be only one USA Day--but I'm glad they stuck with Independence Day!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Any country that has independence from a former governing nation can have an "Independence Day"... there could be only one USA Day--but I'm glad they stuck with Independence Day!


Well "Independence Day" has a nice ring to it... Dominion Day, not so much IMO. 

At any rate, we will have to just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You could be right that those were the rules of the day... they certainly aren't now.
> 
> Any House Leader (or any MP for that matter) from any Party can call a Point of Order to have a vote revoked due to a lack of quorum.


Not saying you are wrong, but I'm interested in pursuing the notion of lack of quorum. 

Here: 

Sittings of the House - Quorum

It says:


> *
> Lack of Quorum During Divisions*
> During a recorded division, if the Speaker’s attention is drawn to the fact that the sum of the votes and the number of Members present who did not vote (including the Speaker) do not total at least 20, then the question remains undecided; the usual quorum procedure is then triggered. If no objection is raised at the time the result of the vote is read to the House, the Speaker simply confirms the result and business proceeds as though there were a quorum.


So you're saying that a Point of Order could be called _following_ the vote--even the next day--and the vote would be neutralized?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but I'm interested in pursuing the notion of lack of quorum.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Sittings of the House - Quorum
> 
> It says:
> 
> 
> So you're saying that a Point of Order could be called _following_ the vote--even the next day--and the vote would be neutralized?


As always I could be wrong...

I am away from work right now and so will have to get back to you tomorrow.

I am just going on my all too failing memory right now...

Hope that is OK with you.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> As always I could be wrong...
> 
> I am away from work right now and so will have to get back to you tomorrow.
> 
> I am just going on my all too failing memory right now...
> 
> Hope that is OK with you.


I've waited since 1982--an extra day is fine!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper Jr's turn -

Tories regret calling Liberal plan a


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper Jr's turn -
> 
> Tories regret calling Liberal plan a


Reporting this here as though it is some sort of political criticism is a very dark mark against you.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Reporting this here as though it is some sort of political criticism is a very dark mark against you.


Dark? It's shameful, disrespectful and should never have been used in a political way. Goodness knows the party is obviously distraught at an unfortunate but unintended use of a term.

The poster has sunk to the lowest of the low trying to imply what he does for political gain.

The actions of a troll.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper Jr's turn -
> 
> Tories regret calling Liberal plan a


What a complete load of rubbish on your part jimbo... 

Absolutely disgraceful. 

Trying to connect dots where they don't exist to try and gain political points on the suffering and deaths of others...

It seems that some here think all they need to do is to regurgitate links for things they read and other peoples thoughts and that makes for a good post.


----------



## groovetube

holy smokes.


----------



## screature

Indeed!


----------



## groovetube

seems turkey and beer can't come fast enough.


----------



## screature

I prefer capon and wine... but that is probably just me, my family and friends.


----------



## groovetube

We'll it was just a thought.

The outrage displayed here over the Harper jr comment is near comical. In fact a dark mark against all of you holier than thous for turning this and the tragedy into your own personal battering ram on someone you seem to despise. That, is shameful in of itself.

Be careful of the whole finger pointing thing because you know, as always...

3 ring circus this is.


----------



## Macfury

Morally stunted.


----------



## BigDL

To interrupt the distractions, the month long proroguement of parliament, the Conservatives are working on the big ideas for the second half of their majority mandate. 

Is it true that Harper's Conservatives are going to enshrine in statute the policy of seeking and paying for good advise then to promptly ignore it?

Much like the Harper Government did on this occasion *Ottawa was warned about Arctic patrol ships' high price
Price quoted by Irving Shipbuilding 'considerably more' than expected, federal review found*



CBCNews said:


> Two days before signing a contract to begin work on a $3-billion shipbuilding project, the federal government was warned by its own advisers that the contract was overpriced — but signed it anyway.
> 
> The warning was contained in a previously confidential independent review of the initial phase of the government's plan to spend $3.1 billion on a fleet of Arctic offshore patrol ships, known as AOPS.
> 
> The report, by International Marine Consultants of Vancouver (IMC), was commissioned by the Department of Public Works and obtained by CBC News under the Access to Information Act. It says the number of man-hours quoted by Irving Shipbuilding of Halifax was "very high and considerably more than we would have expected for a shipbuilding program for vessels of the size and complexity of the AOPS."
> 
> • Ottawa's $35-billion shipbuilding project
> • Shipbuilding contract holds $250M mystery
> • Irving says ship contract comparisons 'apples and oranges'
> • Ottawa signs $288M contract for design of Arctic ships


----------



## Macfury

This is the cost of building ships locally, from inefficient industries in the Maritimes. Instead of offering a shipbuilding welfare program, better to order these more cheaply from other countries.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Is it true that Harper's Conservatives are going to enshrine in statue the policy of seeking and paying for good advise then to promptly ignore it?


I can't seem to find anything about a statue in the story. Who was the sculptor? Is it marble or bronze?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> To interrupt the distractions, the month long proroguement of parliament, the Conservatives are working on the big ideas for the second half of their majority mandate.
> 
> Is it true that Harper's Conservatives are going to enshrine in statue the policy of seeking and paying for good advise then to promptly ignore it?
> 
> Much like the Harper Government did on this occasion *Ottawa was warned about Arctic patrol ships' high price
> Price quoted by Irving Shipbuilding 'considerably more' than expected, federal review found*





> 'A bit like the Three Stooges buying a car'


 :lmao:

Generally when there's any criticism of our 'new government', there's a handful of flares thrown out to deflect.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Let's play gerrymander the internal elections - Stephen Harper Style.

Tory-blue riding is seeing red - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> The outrage displayed here over the Harper jr comment is near comical. In fact a dark mark against all of you holier than thous for turning this and the tragedy into your own personal battering ram on someone you seem to despise. That, is shameful in of itself.
> 
> Be careful of the whole finger pointing thing because you know, as always...
> 
> 3 ring circus this is.


The fact that this non-issue was even brought up as political hay points to the sweaty desperation of some to pin something, anything, on conservatives in general & Harper in particular.

Therein lies your comedy & it is made even more comedic by naive, immature observations such as your own.

BTW, you will find the head clown from this circus in the mirror...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Tumore years. Opps 2 more years.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A good one

To more years! Cheers!

Or

Tumour years

Etc.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Oh by gosh by golly*

There's that suckin' sound...

pffffffffffffftttttttttttttt

Tory spin on robocalls ruling at odds with judge's own words - Inside Politics


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Tumore years. Opps 2 more years.


Just got one question for ya there, skip.

Are you really so naive to think that all your problems with gov't are going to disappear if the Conservatives lose?

Actually, upon reflection, I have a second question.

Are you really so naive to think that all your problems with gov't stem from the Conservatives in the first place?

If the Conservatives being in power eats at your guts anywhere near what you've indicated on these boards, you have far bigger problems than who is in gov't. Serious, physical, medical problems.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> There's that suckin' sound...
> 
> pffffffffffffftttttttttttttt
> 
> Tory spin on robocalls ruling at odds with judge's own words - Inside Politics





> We are pleased the courts shut down the Council of Canadians applications and saw them for what they were; a completely transparent attempt to overturn legitimate election results purely because this left-wing activist group didn't like them.


This bit truly shows just what the cons think of Canadians. If you dare, to speak out that the government has done something wrong and should be taken to task for it, well you sir, are a dirty little leftie. Yeah you.

This is what politics has come down to. Nt many people have seen how the mean spirited politic has made it's way into Canada, it feels as if it's always been here. But it hasn't really. we had a taste of it in Ontario with Mike Harris, now we're seeing it in full bore with Rob Ford. This is a guy who thought having Don Cherry take a baseball bat to anyone left leaning on his first day in office.

But that response, just shows a total disconnect.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Let's play gerrymander the internal elections - Stephen Harper Style.
> 
> Tory-blue riding is seeing red - Winnipeg Free Press


I guess you don't understand the definition of "gerrymander."


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> There's that suckin' sound...
> 
> pffffffffffffftttttttttttttt
> 
> Tory spin on robocalls ruling at odds with judge's own words - Inside Politics


Ha! Partisan hack Kady O'Malley again, trying to parlay a loss by the Council of Canadians into a win. Don't worry about the CoC paying the award--the NDP will write them a cheque to cover it.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but I'm interested in pursuing the notion of lack of quorum.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Sittings of the House - Quorum
> 
> It says:
> 
> 
> So you're saying that a Point of Order could be called _following_ the vote--even the next day--and the vote would be neutralized?





screature said:


> As always I could be wrong...
> 
> I am away from work right now and so will have to get back to you tomorrow.
> 
> I am just going on my all too failing memory right now...
> 
> Hope that is OK with you.





Macfury said:


> I've waited since 1982--an extra day is fine!


Ok so I finally had some time to look into this and it turns out that you are indeed correct. 

A vote conducted without quorum is valid so long as no Member draws attention to the fact that there is not a quorum. Which personally I find ridiculous but there it is. I also find it ridiculous that the number of MPs in the House required to constitute quorum hasn't increased since 1867 when there were only 181 seats.

So in fact I was wrong about an MP being able to raise a Point of Order the next day because in fact no Standing Order would have been broken. However had there been a Standing Order broken a Point of Order could be raised the next day.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Ok so I finally had some time to look into this and it turns out that you are indeed correct.
> 
> A vote conducted without quorum is valid so long as no Member draws attention to the fact that there is not a quorum. Which personally I find ridiculous but there it is. I also find it ridiculous that the number of MPs in the House required to constitute quorum hasn't increased since 1867 when there were only 181 seats.
> 
> So in fact I was wrong about an MP being able to raise a Point of Order the next day because in fact no Standing Order would have been broken. However had there been a Standing Order broken a Point of Order could be raised the next day.


Interesting stuff. You can see why I feel the vote on Canada Day was conducted on shaky--but legal--terrain.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Interesting stuff. You can see why I feel the vote on Canada Day was conducted on shaky--but legal--terrain.


Absolutely. 

Also it was a PMB which means the MPs would not have been whipped to show up or have a whipped position to take on the vote... which basically means A LOT of MPs really didn't care or at least House Leaders didn't really care.

I wonder if the vote was being held on a Friday before a long week-end?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I wonder if the vote was being held on a Friday before a long week-end?


It was the week after Dominion Day!


----------



## BigDL

The extra month off will produce a spectacular second half of Our Glorious Leader's rule. The Thorne Speech shall be fabulous...revolutionary. Or is it to plan on how to deal with the juggernaut that is Justin Trudeau?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Or is it to plan on how to deal with the juggernaut that is Justin Trudeau?


Such explicit man-love is touching!


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> Or is it to plan on how to deal with the juggernaut that is Justin Trudeau?


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You owe me a new keyboard.

Justin Trudeau. A veritable juggernaut.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

A legend in his own mind, maybe. Toss his carbon tax loving lady friend into the mix, they can commiserate the loss together.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The extra month off will produce a spectacular second half of Our Glorious Leader's rule. The Thorne Speech shall be fabulous...revolutionary. Or is it to plan on how to deal with *the juggernaut that is Justin Trudeau*?


God help us all!!


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> The extra month off will produce a spectacular second half of Our Glorious Leader's rule. The Thorne Speech shall be fabulous...revolutionary. Or is it to plan on how to deal with the *juggernaut that is Justin Trudeau*?


Settle down guys. I mean really, consider the source of this ludicrous fable.


----------



## groovetube

Two Canadians killed in mall mass shooting in Kenya | CTV News

This is terrible news. My sister in law is also in Nairobi on a Canadian government job post, apparently she is ok (and her husband) but my father/mother in law were just there visiting a few days before and were at that mall where the attack occurred.

Too close to home, but this is terrible news for the victims and their families.


----------



## screature

*What kind of ethics does our "Ethics" Commisioner have exactly?*


NDP MP Pat Martin got loan from NDP and donations from labour to pay robocalls defamation lawsuit

Forgive the complete quote but I felt the need:



> OTTAWA — New Democrat MP Pat Martin accepted a personal loan from the NDP and numerous donations from labour unions to help pay down debt incurred in a defamation lawsuit over the robocalls case.
> 
> Documents filed with the federal ethics commissioner by the Manitoba MP earlier this month show he accepted contributions to a legal defence fund from the Canadian Labour Congress, the United Steelworkers and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, and 14 other unions or locals.
> 
> The donations are being used the repay a loan Martin received from the New Democratic Party of Canada to settle the legal case.
> 
> Political contributions from unions have been illegal at the federal level since 2004, but Martin says these donations to his legal defence are considered “gifts” to him personally under ethics rules, even though he will never see the money.
> 
> Martin said he went to Revenue Canada, Elections Canada and Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson to make sure contributions to his legal defence would not break any rules.
> 
> The money is being used to pay down legal fees and the costs of settling the lawsuit filed last year by RackNine, the Edmonton-based voice-broadcasting company whose service was used in the 2011 election to send out misleading calls directing voters in Guelph, Ont., to the wrong polling location.
> 
> RackNine sued Martin for comments he made in 2012, shortly after details of an Elections Canada investigation into the robocalls case became public.
> 
> Martin and RackNine reached a settlement of the $5 million lawsuit in February. The terms were not disclosed. Martin says he has paid down about half of what was owed but still has a “massive amount” outstanding. Payments to service the loan cost him $2,700 a month, he said.
> 
> Earlier this year, Ontario Conservative MP Erin O’Toole complained that donations from unions could create a conflict of interest for Martin when dealing with legislation that affects them. Dawson looked into the complaint but later dismissed it.
> 
> Martin says it would be “ludicrous” to think the donations would influence his position on labour issues.
> 
> “If anybody thinks I could become more friendly to trade unions, then they don’t know me very well,” Martin said.
> 
> “I’m a socialist and trade unionist and former head of the carpenters’ union in Manitoba.”
> 
> Martin says he consulted with Dawson before he set up the legal defence fund and she said he had gone even further than he needed to, by setting up a trust fund to handle the contributions to his defence.
> 
> Dawson requires Martin to recuse himself from any matter he deals with as an MP that may affect one of his donors directly, but not on legislation that affects labour unions generally, such as the private members bill brought by a Conservative MP to require more financial disclosure from trade unions.
> 
> A list made public by Dawson’s office lists all donors of $500 or more, including one made personally by Paul Moist, president of CUPE and another from NDP MP Hélène Leblanc.
> 
> “They don’t want to see a politician be stymied and silenced by legal action when we were only acting on fair comment” on an issue in the public interest, Martin said.
> 
> Martin said many donors gave exactly $500 by PayPal but because a service charge was deducted, their contributions were less than the threshold and not made public.
> 
> Legal documents filed by Elections Canada investigators say that RackNine’s owner, Matt Meier, has cooperated with the investigation and provided electronic records to help them find “Pierre Poutine,” the pseudonym used by whoever sent the calls.
> 
> The agency has charged only one person in the case, former Conservative campaign worker Michael Sona. His case is scheduled for a pre-trial hearing Thursday.
> 
> Although RackNine has faced no legal sanctions for the Guelph robocalls, the company was fined $60,000 by the CRTC last year for political calls that violated telemarketing rules.
> 
> Source of donations received by the Pat Martin Legal Defence Fund:
> 
> • The Alberta and NWT Building Trades Council
> 
> • The Canada Labour Congress
> 
> • The Millwrights Union Local 2736
> 
> • The United Steelworkers
> 
> • The International Union of Painters and Allied Trades
> 
> • The British Columbia Regional Council of Carpenters
> 
> • The Canadian Union of Public Employees
> 
> • The Canadian Machinist Political League
> 
> • The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers Canada (Western Canadian Boilermakers)
> 
> • The International Union of Painters and Allied Trades Local 739
> 
> • Susan Atherton
> 
> • The Atlantic Canada Regional Council of Carpenters and Millwrights and Allied Workers
> 
> • The Prairie Artic Regional Council of Canada
> 
> • The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America
> 
> • The United Food and Commercial Workers ch. 19
> 
> • The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 2085
> 
> • The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 2038
> 
> • Mr. Jean-François Larose
> 
> • Ms. Hélène Leblanc
> 
> • The Canadian Union of Public Employees
> 
> • The CAW-Canada
> 
> • Mr. Paul Moist
> 
> • The Federal NDP Caucus Fund


What kind of ethics does our "Ethics" Commissioner have exactly?

Seems like a glaring case of double standards IMO.

You can get "donations" from unions and they don't constitute influence peddling when you are a self admitted union activist??!!

No, the unions aren't giving you the money to help support both your and their cause. 

No. 

Not at all. 

They are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.  

The whole Ethics Commissioner's office is a complete joke. At least under the current Commissioner.

Dawson should go.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

💤💤💤💤💩💩💩💩


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> 💤💤💤💤💩💩💩💩


Something intelligible would be helpful... but I guess that is too much to ask eh jimbo...  beejacon


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> 💤💤💤💤💩💩💩💩


Looks like you are thinking of running for parliament come 2015


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Looks like you are thinking of running for parliament come 2015


Seeing as I actually know many MPs and I actually have respect for a number of them, for me to think that skippy could actually get the nomination and run for being an MP in 2015... well lets just say I find that far fetched.


----------



## groovetube

Well he did meet the queen. Did you?


----------



## screature

:lmao: And do you really think that I think that matters to either you or jimbo. :lmao:

I have Ken Dryden's autograph and have been in the same elevator with him... Have you???

I dare say it matters(d) more to me than it did to jimbo to meet the Queen.

What the [email protected]@k is your point...? Other than not to have one and just be a troll here?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> :lmao: And do you really think that I think that matters to either you or jimbo. :lmao:
> 
> I have Ken Dryden's autograph and have been in the same elevator with him... Have you???
> 
> I dare say it matters(d) more to me than it did to jimbo to meet the Queen.
> 
> What the [email protected]@k is your point...? Other than not to have one and just be a troll here?


Ken Dryden, yes, I've met him several times and worked on a web project of his.

I've known several MPs, even got paid a case of beer for putting up signs for one with his son(who I was in a band with) in his caddy, and he was a conservative to boot! :lmao:

Lots of people know MPs, or some other in government. Hell I even shared the stage with andrew cash and charlie angus! Jack Layton caught a show I played. I was the band playing for John Turner's fest back in the day, though how that gig went was about like his campaign 

And no, it doesn't make a lick of difference. I was just pulling your leg.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> What the [email protected]@k is your point...? Other than not to have one and just be a troll here?


You ought to know by this time that gt is the single biggest troll on ehMac. He continues to prove it, post after post in thread after thread. And then, as is par for the course, plays the victim card and accuses others of doing what he does best. Snork!


----------



## groovetube

Really sinc? after the way you use personal attacks when you can't win an arguement, time after time?

You and your cohorts are nothing but pathetic old men acting like children in a schoolyard. Congratulations on turning this place into a ****hole where people end up somewhere else.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Congratulations on turning this place into a ****hole where people end up somewhere else.


So go.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More scuzbucket tactics from the Harper govt. -

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2013/09/23/heroin-a-fundraising-tool/


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More scuzbucket tactics from the Harper govt. -
> 
> Heroin: a fundraising tool | iPolitics


Having trouble with reading comprehension are we? The Harper government is trying to STOP this practice. It was started by civil servants, not the Conservatives.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More scuzbucket tactics from the Harper govt. -
> 
> Heroin: a fundraising tool | iPolitics


well I read the entire article. Yeah, that's just how the cons roll. Shoot first and ask questions later.


----------



## Macfury

First content-free post of the day!


----------



## CubaMark

*Andrea Horwath Called 'Great Pumpkin' By Ontario PC Delegate, Tim Hudak Reportedly Says Nothing*



> A cruel joke at the expense of Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath is raising some questions about Tim Hudak's Progressive Conservatives.
> 
> Both The Toronto Sun and Toronto Star reported that during a question and answer session at the PC convention in London this weekend, a delegate told Hudak he calls Horwath the "Great Pumpkin" because her party's colour is orange and he thinks she "put on a little bit of weight."
> 
> The Sun's Antonella Artuso wrote that Hudak frowned during the question but did not respond to the insult.
> 
> * * *
> 
> a Thornhill delegate reportedly told Hudak the insult was an example of a larger image problem that is holding the PCs back.
> 
> "That's exactly what we don't need," she said of the Horwath quip. "Right now our image is heartless, business oriented, money first, not caring enough about people."
> 
> And it seems Hudak's decision to let the insult stand didn't sit well with a Sun columnist who ran for the Ontario Tories in a 2009 byelection.
> 
> On Monday, Sue-Ann Levy wrote that the "misogynistic remark" came after Hudak was asked how the party could be more winnable in the next election.


(HuffPo)


----------



## Sonal

You know you done wrong when Sue-Ann Levy calls out a fellow conservative for bad behaviour. Wow.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> You know you done wrong when Sue-Ann Levy calls out a fellow conservative for bad behaviour. Wow.


If he'd left it at the colour orange it would have been funny. Some people don't know how to frame a gag.

However, Hudak is no kind of conservative I recognize, so open season for Sue-Ann!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> You know you done wrong when Sue-Ann Levy calls out a fellow conservative for bad behaviour. Wow.


ha ha, yeah not only that, she went after Hudak as well. Fun times for the ontario PCs.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

From the Harper govt. support the troops file - 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/touch/story.html?id=8940083

Make sure there's a muzzle on the wounded.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More scuzbucket tactics from the Harper govt. -
> 
> Heroin: a fundraising tool | iPolitics


Seems the Conservatives once again have confused Conservtive dogma with the Canadian government's policy. Very dangerous and subversive by that political party.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> once again have confused *Conservtive* dogma with the Canadian government's policy.


Just what is *"Conservtive"* dogma? Is that even a word?


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> From the Harper govt. support the troops file -
> 
> Wounded vets asked to sign form saying they won
> 
> Make sure there's a muzzle on the wounded.


it's all about keeping people quiet. Controlling the message, and intimidating anyone who dares speak out. Nothing like freedom hey? :lmao:

Oh, and supporting the troops! Way to go Harper! :clap:


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> it's all about keeping people quiet. Controlling the message, and intimidating anyone who dares speak out. Nothing like freedom hey? :lmao:


Yeah! Sounds like the global warming cadre! Vive la liberté!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper : Let's get tough on crime*

This is priceless....not on Harper's watch?

Yessirreee! 

Uttsa matta uttsa matta hey uttsa matta fa you.

Revenue Canada corruption feared over $400K cheque to Nicolo Rizzuto - Montreal - CBC News


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This is priceless....not on Harper's watch?
> 
> Yessirreee!
> 
> Uttsa matta uttsa matta hey uttsa matta fa you.
> 
> Revenue Canada corruption feared over $400K cheque to Nicolo Rizzuto - Montreal - CBC News


"The Canada Revenue Agency issued a rebate cheque for nearly $400,000 to a top Quebec Mafia figure even though he owed the tax department $1.5 million at the time, heightening concerns of possible infiltration of the agency by organized crime." 

Wow. I got raked over the coals when I submitted a refund claim of over $1000 due to large medical bills. Had to send everything except our first-born doxie to them. After weeks of back and forth, seems as if my claim was very straight forward and perfectly legal, and that they owed me an extra 23 cents ................... which I never saw.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This is priceless....not on Harper's watch?
> 
> Yessirreee!
> 
> Uttsa matta uttsa matta hey uttsa matta fa you.
> 
> Revenue Canada corruption feared over $400K cheque to Nicolo Rizzuto - Montreal - CBC News


Well the pertinent issue here is it was the "Canada Revenue Agency's* Montreal tax office*".

I don't think that is unexpected actually.

Despite you trying to tie this to Harper this is all about the corruption that we all know is rampant in Quebec.

Fundamentally it is a provincial issue and not a federal one even though the provincial hoods infiltrated a provincial office of a federal agency it just goes to show how far their reach is...

Even though it was a federal office it was still run by citizens of Quebec and most particularly citizens of Montreal who could be bought and/or threatened by the local mob.

This isn't rocket science but you still want to try and dumb it down more than it already is just for your own partisan purposes?


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "The Canada Revenue Agency issued a rebate cheque for nearly $400,000 to a top Quebec Mafia figure even though he owed the tax department $1.5 million at the time, heightening concerns of possible infiltration of the agency by organized crime."
> 
> Wow. I got raked over the coals when I submitted a refund claim of over $1000 due to large medical bills. Had to send everything except our first-born doxie to them. After weeks of back and forth, seems as if my claim was very straight forward and perfectly legal, and that they owed me an extra 23 cents ................... which I never saw.


I didn't send a reassessment of my HST return for like 50 some bucks for a few weeks and they started hammering my business phone for it.

I've noticed in the last few years they go all out even for the smallest of amounts, biz friends have said the same thing.

Gotta squeeze to help shrink down that deficit!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I didn't send a reassessment of my HST return for like 50 some bucks for a few weeks and they started hammering my business phone for it.
> 
> I've noticed in the last few years they go all out even for the smallest of amounts, biz friends have said the same thing.
> 
> Gotta squeeze to help shrink down that deficit!


A wise decision, gt. As stated in the CBC article --

""That name there was all over the headlines after the arrests. I mean, look, we're not talking about Joe Blow here," Jean-Pierre Paquette, who retired from the revenue agency in 2009, told the Radio-Canada investigative program Enquête.

"There are checks in place. There are approvals that are required during the whole process," he added. "It's left me rather perplexed about the validity of that kind of rebate or that kind of move by the agency."

Paquette, who spent 35 years with the CRA's anti-organized-crime unit, said after he learned about the cheque, he went to Rizzuto's home to persuade the family to return it. Rizzuto's daughter handed it back to him in the kitchen.

Noël Carisse, assistant director of media relations at CRA, said: "It would be highly irresponsible to suggest that there was anything inappropriate, illicit or nefarious in CRA’s dealings with this specific taxpayer. Any suggestion that CRA did not devote the proper resources or attention to this situation is unequivocally false."

Rizzuto, whose son is former Montreal Mafia godfather Vito Rizzuto, pleaded guilty to gangsterism charges in 2008 and was sentenced to time served. Two years later, he was charged with tax evasion for failing to declare income on $5.2 million in Swiss accounts and again pleaded guilty, paying $209,000 in fines.

He was shot dead at his home by a sniper in November 2010 at the age of 86."


You would NOT want a CRA sniper/hit man camped outside of your home ........... certainly not for $50.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I didn't send a reassessment of my HST return for like 50 some bucks for a few weeks and they started hammering my business phone for it.
> 
> I've noticed in the last few years they go all out even for the smallest of amounts, biz friends have said the same thing.
> 
> Gotta squeeze to help shrink down that deficit!


It is your responsibility as a citizen to declare all income and pay all tax due. Why did you try to skip out on that responsibility?


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> It is your responsibility as a citizen to declare all income and pay all tax due. Why did you try to skip out on that responsibility?


It sounded like gt delayed in sending in his reassessment of $50 rather than trying to "skip out" on paying. That was my problem as well, since there is no date on the reassessment as to when it is due.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> It sounded like gt delayed in sending in his reassessment of $50 rather than trying to "skip out" on paying. That was my problem as well, since there is no date on the reassessment as to when it is due.


yes, I didn't skip out on anything. ( isn't that rather like the 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' sort of question? ) I sent many many thousands of dollars and, for whatever reason, they sent me a thing saying I owed them a few bucks more. I got kinda overwhelmed with this reno and I forgot for a couple weeks. I was a little surprised by the intensity of the calls when I took some time off work.


----------



## CubaMark

_Jeebus. Harper's Conservatives are falling to the right of even the U.S. on gun control? _:yikes:

*UN Arms Trade Treaty: Canada Refuses To Join 90 Nations In Signing*

_The Harper government faced sharp criticism Wednesday for its continued refusal to sign a landmark treaty to regulate the global arms trade.

* * * 

...the federal NDP accused the government of indulging in conspiracy theories because it continues to express concern that the treaty might have an impact on lawful gun owners within Canada.

The criticism was unleashed after *Secretary of State John Kerry signed the treaty on behalf of the U.S.* on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly.

Kerry called it a "significant step" in keeping the world safe.

* * *

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has said there is a potential link between signing on to the treaty and Canada's now-abolished long gun registry. His office has said the government is still trying to determine whether the treaty would affect lawful recreational firearms owners in Canada.

* * * 

NDP foreign affairs critic Paul Dewar said he was shocked that the U.S., which has a much tougher gun lobby, has signed the treaty before Canada.

"The fact that the government continues to refuse to sign the treaty indicates a preference for conspiracy theories over the simple truth: this is a treaty that will help save the lives of millions of civilians around the world and it has no impact on domestic owners of firearms," Dewar said in an email.

"Today's signature by the United States just makes it more obvious that the Conservatives are making this decision based on gun-lobby ideology and not reality."

Robert Fox, executive director of Oxfam Canada, said he was disappointed with the government's inaction and urged it to sign the treaty without delay.

"We're in a world where there's more regulations about the trade of bananas than there are about AK-47s," _​

(HuffPo)


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> _Jeebus. Harper's Conservatives are falling to the right of even the U.S. on gun control? _:yikes:


Don't be ridiculous. That's not what is happening at all. They just don't want to sign anything without checking out what the unintended consequences might be.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Don't be ridiculous. That's not what is happening at all. They just don't want to sign anything without checking out what the unintended consequences might be.


Absolutely. Only the John Kerrys of the world would sign this without carefully studying the ramifications.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> _Jeebus. Harper's Conservatives are falling to the right of even the U.S. on gun control? _:yikes:
> 
> *UN Arms Trade Treaty: Canada Refuses To Join 90 Nations In Signing*
> 
> _The Harper government faced sharp criticism Wednesday for its continued refusal to sign a landmark treaty to regulate the global arms trade.
> 
> * * *
> 
> ...the federal NDP accused the government of indulging in conspiracy theories because it continues to express concern that the treaty might have an impact on lawful gun owners within Canada.
> 
> The criticism was unleashed after *Secretary of State John Kerry signed the treaty on behalf of the U.S.* on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly.
> 
> Kerry called it a "significant step" in keeping the world safe.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has said there is a potential link between signing on to the treaty and Canada's now-abolished long gun registry. His office has said the government is still trying to determine whether the treaty would affect lawful recreational firearms owners in Canada.
> 
> * * *
> 
> NDP foreign affairs critic Paul Dewar said he was shocked that the U.S., which has a much tougher gun lobby, has signed the treaty before Canada.
> 
> "The fact that the government continues to refuse to sign the treaty indicates a preference for conspiracy theories over the simple truth: this is a treaty that will help save the lives of millions of civilians around the world and it has no impact on domestic owners of firearms," Dewar said in an email.
> 
> "Today's signature by the United States just makes it more obvious that the Conservatives are making this decision based on gun-lobby ideology and not reality."
> 
> Robert Fox, executive director of Oxfam Canada, said he was disappointed with the government's inaction and urged it to sign the treaty without delay.
> 
> "We're in a world where there's more regulations about the trade of bananas than there are about AK-47s," _​
> 
> (HuffPo)


that may play to their small gun nut base, but is going to make for some great ammo for the opposition to use for appealing to a much larger number of people. Particularly the urban vote..


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FYI

Here's the Deloitte audit that left Harper appointed Wallin wallowing in Wadena -

Deloitte audit report of Pamela Wallin

Poor Pammy had to sell off her Manhattan condo to pay the bill. Alas no more nights at the Opera. 

Poor, poor Pam.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> yes, I didn't skip out on anything. ( isn't that rather like the 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' sort of question? ) I sent many many thousands of dollars and, for whatever reason, they sent me a thing saying I owed them a few bucks more. I got kinda overwhelmed with this reno and I forgot for a couple weeks. I was a little surprised by the intensity of the calls when I took some time off work.


Interestingly, for medical reasons my barber has cut his work week in half, and also his quarterly payments to the CRA. Now they are saying he owes them several thousand based on previous years income, even though there is no way this years income will be anything close to that. 

At the moment his accountant is attempting to get the CRA to actually think rather than use formulae. Will let you all know how that goes next month.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Interestingly, for medical reasons my barber has cut his work week in half, and also his quarterly payments to the CRA. Now they are saying he owes them several thousand based on previous years income, even though there is no way this years income will be anything close to that.
> 
> At the moment his accountant is attempting to get the CRA to actually think rather than use formulae. Will let you all know how that goes next month.


I've heard this same story from quite a lot of people. The shakedown has become quite noticeable in the last few years on small businesses.


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> _Jeebus. Harper's Conservatives are falling to the right of even the U.S. on gun control? _:yikes:
> 
> *UN Arms Trade Treaty: Canada Refuses To Join 90 Nations In Signing*
> 
> _The Harper government faced sharp criticism Wednesday for its continued refusal to sign a landmark treaty to regulate the global arms trade.
> 
> * * *
> 
> ...the federal NDP accused the government of indulging in conspiracy theories because it continues to express concern that the treaty might have an impact on lawful gun owners within Canada.
> 
> The criticism was unleashed after *Secretary of State John Kerry signed the treaty on behalf of the U.S.* on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly.
> 
> Kerry called it a "significant step" in keeping the world safe.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has said there is a potential link between signing on to the treaty and Canada's now-abolished long gun registry. His office has said the government is still trying to determine whether the treaty would affect lawful recreational firearms owners in Canada.
> 
> * * *
> 
> NDP foreign affairs critic Paul Dewar said he was shocked that the U.S., which has a much tougher gun lobby, has signed the treaty before Canada.
> 
> "The fact that the government continues to refuse to sign the treaty indicates a preference for conspiracy theories over the simple truth: this is a treaty that will help save the lives of millions of civilians around the world and it has no impact on domestic owners of firearms," Dewar said in an email.
> 
> "Today's signature by the United States just makes it more obvious that the Conservatives are making this decision based on gun-lobby ideology and not reality."
> 
> Robert Fox, executive director of Oxfam Canada, said he was disappointed with the government's inaction and urged it to sign the treaty without delay.
> 
> "We're in a world where there's more regulations about the trade of bananas than there are about AK-47s," _​
> 
> (HuffPo)


Ahhh yes, the Conservatives are taking their talking points from the US Republican Party or the US Gun Lobby or both.

Throw up a bunch of misinformation to get the wedge issue going. Them gun owners will cough up lots of dough if'n they think "their a'comm'n fer yer guns again.

Should be much "cha-chinging" going on at Conservative headquarters when those small cheques start to add up, to serious cash, from those that are duped. How's that old saw about "a fool and his money."


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Ahhh yes, the Conservatives are taking their talking points from the US Republican Party or the US Gun Lobby or both.
> 
> Throw up a bunch of misinformation to get the wedge issue going. Them gun owners will cough up lots of dough if'n they think "their a'comm'n fer yer guns again.
> 
> Should be much "cha-chinging" going on at Conservative headquarters when those small cheques start to add up, to serious cash, from those that are duped. How's that old saw about "a fool and his money."


A good peek at the insanity of the gun nuts is the clusterEFF during the attempt by Obama to simply improve background checks for gun buyers at gun shows.

They're a'comin' fer yer guns!!!!!!


----------



## BigDL

I see it as more than a situation of them 'mercan's in those Excited States issue. 

Since the Conservatives won the gun registry battle they have been looking for a cause to suck in and suck up money from worried and paranoid gun enthusiasts. They can't abide the drop in revenue from gun toting Canadians. A group of people, more than willing, to throw cash at a perceived problem. 


The Federal Conservatives just need to repeat "the internationalists are coming for your guns…we'll protect you…what a shake down scheme.


----------



## groovetube

Fear. Works every time


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Fear. Works every time


Maybe, but the "only thing we have to fear is fear itself ...." 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amNpxQANk0M]F.D.R.'s First Inaugural Speech: Nothing to fear - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> "the internationalists are coming for your guns…we'll protect you…what a shake down scheme.


Today I swung my front door wide open and placed my Bushmaster AR-15 right in the doorway. I left a full 20 round magazine beside it, then left it alone and went about my business.

While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the neighbor boy across the street mowed the lawn, a girl walked her dog down the street, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign near the front of our house.

After about an hour, I checked on the gun. It was still sitting there, right where I had left it. It hadn't moved itself outside. It certainly hadn't killed anyone, even with the numerous opportunities it had been presented to do so.

In fact, it hadn't even loaded itself. Well you can imagine my surprise, with all the media hype about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people.


----------



## groovetube

Isn't it rather irresponsible to leave a weapon like that, along with a loaded 20 round magazine unattended with your front door open?

Good that nothing happened, perhaps living in a small town, it may not be a huge surprise.

Try doing that in downtown Toronto. The results may not have been as good


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Try doing that in downtown Toronto. The results may not have been as good


Yeah. A criminal, not a law-abiding citizen, would have stolen the weapon, committed a crime with it against an unarmed victim in a gun free zone, then sold it to another criminal, returning full circle and starting the next cycle. All this in a country that has gun laws, which for some unknown reason, are completely ignored by...criminals!


----------



## groovetube

Dean Del Mastro charged under the Canada Elections Act | National Post

Another conservative charged over election expenses!


----------



## BigDL

Dean Del Mastro said:


> "Baseless smears and unfounded allegations"


Seems Dean's favourite comment with regard to election spending scandals, Pierre Poutine and robocalls is coming back to haunt him once more. :lmao: :clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What's a matta fa u?
Shud a up ya face.....

So long Dean. You can say say Hi to Wallin and the Puffster on the dung heap.

Not to mention Nigel's 90k cheque. 

One can go on and on. 

Not fit to govern with a majority - Harper govt.


----------



## BigDL

*Rapist's Credo?*

WOW! Steven Harper will not take "NO!" for answer.



CBCNews said:


> *Harper, who participated in a question and answer session with the Canadian American Business Council on the second day of his visit to New York Thursday afternoon, said in no uncertain terms "my view is you don't take no for an answer.
> 
> "We haven't had that but if we were to get that, that won't be final. This won't be final until it's approved and we will keep pushing forward," Harper said in his strongest statement on the proposed cross-border pipeline to date.*


PM Won't NO for an answer CBC

Won't take No for an answer CTV

Isn't that the attitude of a rapist?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> WOW! Steven Harper will not take "NO!" for answer.
> 
> 
> 
> PM Won't NO for an answer
> 
> Isn't that the attitude of a rapist?


:lmao:

Harper not taking no for an answer from the US?

I've seen a few hilarious takes on that on twitter.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Dean Del Mastro charged under the Canada Elections Act | National Post
> 
> Another conservative charged over election expenses!





BigDL said:


> Seems Dean's favourite comment with regard to election spending scandals, Pierre Poutine and robocalls is coming back to haunt him once more. :lmao: :clap:


Well it may be news to some (probably now it seems like news because it is official) but anyone who has has been following along knows that this was fully expected.

Dean Del Mastro = Alfonso Gagliano extra lite. 

Unfortunately for Dean he wasn't a part of the Quebec mob under Chretien and so he is actually going to be prosecuted.

Who looks like they are a "Don" and who looks like they are just a witless schlep who doesn't have a clue?


----------



## groovetube

somehow got the well he's a liberal in conservative clothing angle eh? Wonder of Dean will be barred from the conservatives for life.

One could say perhaps in light of the current 90k PMO cheque scandal he's actually Harper lite.

Since you'll argue there's no evidence Harper was involved, there wasn't for Chretien either. Even though people on both side in either case are sure they're guilty.


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> Isn't that the attitude of a rapist?


Reminds me of a politician to our south, who, when he can't get something passed through either house, starts making executive orders.

Pot, meet kettle.

Oh, wait, wrong thread...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Reminds me of a politician to our south, who, when he can't get something passed through either house, starts making executive orders.
> 
> Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> Oh, wait, wrong thread...


Thinking back to Bush II, or were you talking about Bush III aka Obushma.beejacon


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *somehow got the well he's a liberal in conservative clothing angle eh*? Wonder of Dean will be barred from the conservatives for life.
> 
> One could say perhaps in light of the current 90k PMO cheque scandal he's actually Harper lite.
> 
> Since you'll argue there's no evidence Harper was involved, there wasn't for Chretien either. Even though people on both side in either case are sure they're guilty.


Keep telling yourself this and maybe you will feel better about supporting the left.

TBT when it comes to the amount of dollars involved in gerrymandering, the current government is WAY behind the total dollar value of the preceding Lib government so yes I will bring it up because despite all the hype around JT he will make no difference as he is simply a puppet that the party can direct and control.

Oh and BTW 90K is peanuts compared to AdScam and the EI scam lest we forget... some people would obviously prefer that we forget.


----------



## groovetube

I love how suddenly, it's all about the liberals.

A small reminder, that this is about yet another story of a conservative being charged. Bleating that the other guy did it too kinda deflates any claims that the conservatives are more trustworthy.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy...wild times in Edmonchuck. This emperor has no clothes!

National Post link will not work -

Here's the story title which you can google to get to

Jason Gariepy, councillor embroiled in naked photos scandal, alleges he was set up by political enemies


----------



## Macfury

Thanks for sharing that link, Skippy--It's about time that Canadians got some relief from high tariffs!



> Internal documents obtained by the Post reveal the government’s concern at prices it says are, on average, 15% higher than those paid by U.S. consumers


Time to dismantle the old Liberal trade barriers!


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Great at issue panel last night.

Highlighting Harper on booting Del Mastro from caucus after calling him "honourable" in parliament and consensus that a NO on Keystone is coming.

At Issue: Dean Del Mastro's Election Act Charges - The National - CBC Player


----------



## groovetube

word has it that Harper will threaten to send Nickleback to the United States permanently if Obama says no to the Keystone.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I love how suddenly, it's all about the liberals.
> 
> A small reminder, that this is about yet another story of a conservative being charged. Bleating that the other guy did it too kinda deflates any claims that the conservatives are more trustworthy.


GT you are being too kind.

This is not *"a"* conservative. Dean was the Principle Secretary for only Our Glorious Prime Minister. Dean had the PM's back when Steve was out of Parliament, proroguing aside,(which we all know Steve's absences were prolonged and often) Dean was the guy. Dean defended the actions of the PM and his Conservative Government. Dean was well respected by his former caucus.

This is a reflection on the guy that appointed Dean not on another failed political party's actions in the past.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I love how suddenly, it's all about the liberals.
> 
> A small reminder, that this is about yet another story of a conservative being charged. Bleating that the other guy did it too kinda deflates any claims that the conservatives are more trustworthy.


Not more trustworthy, just that if the Libs get back in you can expect the same kinds of things they have done in the past which in terms of dollar value far out weigh any misdoings by the current Cons.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> GT you are being too kind.
> 
> This is not *"a"* conservative. Dean was the Principle Secretary for only Our Glorious Prime Minister. Dean had the PM's back when Steve was out of Parliament, proroguing aside,(which we all know Steve's absences were prolonged and often) Dean was the guy. Dean defended the actions of the PM and his Conservative Government. Dean was well respected by his former caucus.
> 
> *This is a reflection on the guy that appointed Dean not on another failed political party's actions in the past*.


Not in the least. The PM has no idea of an individual MPs campaign spending and of course he is going to defend him as everyone is innocent until proven guilty which still hasn't even happened. But we all know that in the court of public opinion one is guilty until proven innocent, all that is required is charges being laid, especially if they are your political adversary.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Not more trustworthy, just that if the Libs get back in you can expect the same kinds of things they have done in the past which in terms of dollar value far out weigh any misdoings by the current Cons.


An interesting take as the Liberals did manage to balance the budget, albeit with smoke and mirrors. Something the Cons, even though they are using the same tricks, have been unable to do. This is at least in part due to Harpos desire to suck Canadian taxpayers into the Middle-East vortex and his incessant flirtations with the US MIC.

The really scary thing is that if interest rates returned today to the healthier level the Cretin Government faced, the Harpolites would be facing at least $20 Billion$ tacked onto the current deficits.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *An interesting take as the Liberals did manage to balance the budget, albeit with smoke and mirrors. *Something the Cons, even though they are using the same tricks, have been unable to do. This is at least in part due to Harpos desire to suck Canadian taxpayers into the Middle-East vortex.
> 
> The scary thing is that if interest rates returned today to the level the Cretin Government faced, the Harpolites would be facing at least $20 Billion$ tacked onto the current deficits.


Different times in case you didn't notice, the Libs weren't facing the Great Global Recession now were they? And they didn't have the Opposition screaming at them to spend like drunken sailors while in a minority government situation either for that matter.

Also, the Libs supported *all* of the Cons budgets while there was a minority government so they are culpable for the deficit as well in case you don't know.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Different times in case you didn't notice, the Libs weren't facing the Great Global Recession now were they? And they didn't have the Opposition screaming at them to spend like drunken sailors while in a minority government situation either for that matter.
> 
> Also, the Libs supported *all* of the Cons budgets while there was a minority government so they are culpable for the deficit as well in case you don't know.


Right $60 Billion$ in corporate tax cuts, none of which were offset by cuts in spending, did absolutely nothing to increase the deficits. Either that or it was doze dam wiberals.

Time for Harpo to take the blame for his own actions no more trying to divert blame to the other guys.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Right $60 Billion$ in corporate tax cuts, *none of which were offset by cuts in spending*, did absolutely nothing to increase the deficits. Either that or it was doze dam wiberals.
> 
> Time for Harpo to take the blame for his own actions no more trying to divert blame to the other guys.


You clearly don't get it... the Libs supported the corporate tax cuts...

If you support a budget by the ruling party when in Opposition you are culpable. Period.

It ain't rocket science.



> "none of which were offset by cuts in spending"


 :lmao:

Yeah that is why there is all the caterwauling going on by various groups about the cuts in their budgets... Do you even read the regular news as opposed to your favorite conspiracy blog?


----------



## groovetube

Actually, the liberals campaigned in the last election _-against-_ the round of big cuts. One of the few things they were clear on. In fact the motion that took down Harper's last minority government included this, so they did not support the Conservatives last round on corporate tax cuts. Get your facts straight.



> The motion chides the government for showing contempt for Parliament by failing to fully disclose the multibillion-dollar costs of its tough-on-crime agenda, corporate tax cuts and plans to purchase stealth fighter jets.


Non-confidence motion on Friday


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau

hmm. What's interesting about this, is perhaps rather than let the tories choose what to attack Trudeau on, he's spoon feeding them


----------



## SINC

Trudeau should be attacked for advocating for and using illegal drugs. He is not PM material in any way for his drug use and stand.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You clearly don't get it... the Libs supported the corporate tax cuts...
> 
> If you support a budget by the ruling party when in Opposition you are culpable. Period.
> 
> It ain't rocket science.
> 
> :lmao:
> 
> Yeah that is why there is all the caterwauling going on by various groups about the cuts in their budgets... Do you even read the regular news as opposed to your favorite conspiracy blog?


Nope if it is a Con idea, the Cons put it forth, the Cons did the arm twisting to get it passed, it is the Cons who are responsible for the results.

Trying to shift some or all of the blame is of course Conspin at its best but we are all older and wiser and out west the smell of BS is very recognizable. This particular trick reeks with that stench.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Trudeau should be attacked for advocating for and using illegal drugs. He is not PM material in any way for his drug use and stand.


And I think they should continue attacking him on it!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> And I think they should continue attacking him on it!


You got it. Instead of looking into the 90k PMO deal maybe the RCMP should charge Justin over for his flagrant use of an illegal herb.


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, the support for drug use here rises again. Who but users would support this crap they like to lighten by calling it an herb?


----------



## groovetube

I give up. Who?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I give up. Who?


One word: USERS.


----------



## groovetube

Who are the users?


----------



## SINC

People who use or have used. Pretty simple. Even you should be able to figure that one out.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Ah yes, the support for drug use here rises again. Who but users would support this crap they like to lighten by calling it an herb?


Look buddy what more do you want? It's an illegal herb/weed whatever. 

Trudeau should pay the price for his error and spend some time in Millhaven. That'll teach the wacko.


----------



## SINC

Now you're talking. And I am far from being your 'buddy'.


----------



## groovetube

You know I had heard... That the ones who hate pot users the most, tend to be violent alcoholics.

Discuss.


----------



## SINC

People should discuss the post of a self confessed mouthy simpleton?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Now you're talking. And I am far from being your 'buddy'.


You bet your bippy bud. 

Furthermore his mom should be charged for her flagrant pot use back in the day.


----------



## groovetube

Hell bring back capital punishment. Line them suckers up and mow them down!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Hell bring back capital punishment. Line them suckers up and mow them down!


Yeah that'd take care of at least 50% of the population. Then we could have a big hymn sing and start a new moral society. Oh happy day.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Furthermore his mom should be charged for her flagrant pot use back in the day.


She should have been charged for being his mom.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

By the way bud you should head east sometime where everyone is a buddy. You don't have to like buddies bud. I know some buds who like buddies especially after a few buds bud. But buddy I'm not one of them and you're not my buddy bud.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> She should have been charged for being his mom.


Exactly charged for being a pot smoking incubator for Trudeau spermatozoa.


----------



## groovetube

Did she sleep with the members of the Rolling Stones?

Ack! Adultery! Take her outside the city walls and stone her!

That'll learn them


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Did she sleep with the members of the Rolling Stones?
> 
> Ack! Adultery! Take her outside the city walls and stone her!
> 
> That'll learn them


Yep. She had something for Ron's wood. Spendin' all that time in Studio 54 pretending to be a photographer.

Disgusting it was. No good'll ever come of them Trudeaus.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey buddy. Buddy?

Where d'ja go bud?


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeah that'd take care of at least 50% of the population. Then we could have a big hymn sing and start a new moral society. Oh happy day.


So then, over half of you are users? Incredibly stupid!


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> By the way bud you should head east sometime where everyone is a buddy. You don't have to like buddies bud. I know some buds who like buddies especially after a few buds bud. But buddy I'm not one of them and you're not my buddy bud.


I lived in the east for ten long years. Worst 10 years of my life.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> So then, over half of you are users? Incredibly stupid!


Criminal users of illegal marijuana. Many of them are Birkenstock wearing artists with tattoos and piercings. All preventing this nation from being a truly great nation. Lock em up and watch em fight over the soap I say.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> I lived in the east for ten long years. Worst 10 years of my life.


Yep. I found Hong Kong too crowded. And not enough buddies eh.


----------



## groovetube

yeah the east eh. All terrible people.

Probably pot smokers. They don't know the aroma of a cow patty and have a bushmaster at the ready at every doorway.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. I found Hong Kong too crowded. And not enough buddies eh.


My experience was in SW Ontario. Most unfriendly place I ever did live.


----------



## eMacMan

I see we have wandered back into the smoke screen issues. Nice diversion if you don't want to discuss the Cons inability to balance the budget, or their insane desire to get sucked into Syria and Iran.


----------



## SINC

Not hard to look back and see who started it though.


----------



## groovetube

Indeed, a news item is always an invitation to be a dick.


----------



## SINC

Especially so when supporting illegal drug use.


----------



## groovetube

I know you are, but what am I?

yuk yuk!


----------



## kps

Good grief...you chatterboxes still at each other? lol


----------



## groovetube

hey, I just posted a news article, current front page stuff, and some jerkoff comes in calling people drug addicts, and criminals.

He really should just shut up and let people chat about the news item without being the usual Goof and starting more crap.


----------



## Macfury

I just want the blue cloud clan to have the courage of their convictions and vote to make all drug use a misdemeanour--even crack. Marijuana isn't some sort of special case.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Actually, the liberals campaigned in the last election _-against-_ the round of big cuts. One of the few things they were clear on. In fact the motion that took down Harper's last minority government included this, so they did not support the Conservatives last round on corporate tax cuts. Get your facts straight.
> 
> Non-confidence motion on Friday


Actually you are wrong the non-confidence motion was not a vote on the budget:



> Business of Supply...
> 
> Pursuant to Standing Order 81(17), the House proceeded to the putting of the question on the motion of Mr. Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore), seconded by Mr. Goodale (Wascana), — *That the House agree with the finding of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs that the government is in contempt of Parliament, which is unprecedented in Canadian parliamentary history, and consequently, the House has lost confidence in the government.*


Journals No. 149 Friday, March 25, 2011

See no mention of the budget whatsoever. That is a fact. Period.

What you posted was an article full of last minute spin. If it hadn't been for Speaker Milliken finding the government in contempt of Parliament there never would have been a non-confidence motion. The non confidence Motion as is stated in the motion itself was precipitated by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. It had nothing to do with the budget persay, i.e. it was not a vote on the budget but on a vote of Procedure and House Affairs.

See I gets my facts from the actual proceedings of the House and not the spin of the media. So back at ya... Get your facts straight.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Actually you are wrong the non-confidence motion was not a vote on the budget:
> 
> 
> 
> Journals No. 149 Friday, March 25, 2011
> 
> See no mention of the budget whatsoever. That is a fact. Period.
> 
> What you posted was an article full of last minute spin. If it hadn't been for Speaker Milliken finding the government in contempt of Parliament there never would have been a non-confidence motion. The non confidence Motion as is stated in the motion itself was precipitated by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. It had nothing to do with the budget persay, i.e. it was not a vote on the budget but on a vote of Procedure and House Affairs.
> 
> See I gets my facts from the actual proceedings of the House and not the spin of the media. So back at ya... Get your facts straight.


Nice try. The government was brought down on a non confidence vote because they didn't trust the government's budget numbers. WHich included, the costing of the corporate cuts.

You would have to have been living under a rock not to notice the opposition's resistance to these corporate tax cuts, which both opposition parties also campaigned on not doing.


----------



## eMacMan

Not quite sure why the Con-spinners find Contempt of Parliament more agreeable than the events that led up to the finding.....

I think Contempt of Taxpayers more accurately reflects the Harpo Government attitude. If you aren't a bloated corporation with big lobby bucks watch out for those Harpo heels.beejacon


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Nice try. Now go find out -why- there was a contempt of parliament finding.
> 
> And no, it wasn't last minute media spin.


The contempt of Parliament ruling and subsequent non-confidence motion was about not adequately reporting to Parliament information on the government's spending plans numbers but they were not brought down on the budget. The debate on the budget was far, far from complete Oh and just in case you didn't know the Libs had voted for the budget and corp tax cuts in every single other budget. My facts are correct.

They never got to vote on the budget before they were brought down so you can try and spin it however you want but facts as I presented them are indeed the facts.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Not quite sure why the Con-spinners find Contempt of Parliament more agreeable than the events that led up to the finding.....
> 
> I think Contempt of Taxpayers more accurately reflects the Harpo Government attitude. If you aren't a bloated corporation with big lobby bucks watch out for those Harpo heels.beejacon


Geesh eMacMan try and follow along... this was all precipitated by you gobbledegook about corporate tax cuts which was merely pointed out to you that in fact that in every budget that was actually voted on the Liberals voted for them. Clear now?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The contempt of Parliament ruling and subsequent non-confidence motion was about not adequately reporting to Parliament information on the government's spending plans numbers but they were not brought down on the budget. The debate on the budget was far, far from complete Oh and just in case you didn't know the Libs had voted for the budget and corp tax cuts in every single other budget. My facts are correct.
> 
> They never got to vote on the budget before they were brought down so you can try and spin it however you want but facts as I presented them are indeed the facts.


Yes I know the non confidence was not the actual vote on the budget. That much is obvious.

But the point here is, the liberals, did NOT support the corporate tax cuts as you said they did.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yes I know the non confidence was not the actual vote on the budget. That much is obvious.
> 
> But the point here is, the liberals, did NOT support the corporate tax cuts as you said they did.


Fact:The Liberals supported corporate tax cuts every time they were voted on.

In the article you posted there is not one quote from the Liberals that they were not supporting the budget because of corporate tax cuts. Not one.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Fact:The Liberals supported corporate tax cuts every time they were voted on.


you've very carefully spun this debate to suit your purposes. Nice try once again.

The liberals may have supported previous years budgets that included some corporate tax cuts, but they did NOT support the latest rounds of substantial corporate tax cuts.

That's incorrect.

And given that these huge tax cuts were useless, only lined rich pockets and let them cash hoard, they were right on this issue.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> you've very carefully spun this debate to suit your purposes. Nice try once again.
> 
> The liberals may have supported previous years budgets that included some corporate tax cuts, but they did NOT support the latest rounds of substantial corporate tax cuts.
> 
> That's incorrect.


Show me where the Libs said they were not supporting the budget because of corporate tax cuts and then you have the beginning of a factual argument.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Geesh eMacMan try and follow along... this was all precipitated by you gobbledegook about corporate tax cuts which was merely pointed out to you that in fact that in every budget that was actually voted on the Liberals voted for them. Clear now?


Sheesh. Again it was the Cons idea, the Cons implementation. Trying to split/shift the blame for the consequences, to be very kind, is disingenuous. Especially given the arm-twisting required to gain that rather luke-warm "support".

BTW I have to point out that the elder Trudeaus contempt of Parliament makes the Cons efforts look like bottom tier Junior B.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Sheesh. Again it was the Cons idea, the Cons implementation. Trying to split/shift the blame for the consequences, to be very kind, is disingenuous. Especially given the arm-twisting required to gain that rather luke-warm "support".
> 
> BTW I have to point out that the elder Trudeaus contempt of Parliament makes the Cons efforts look like bottom tier Junior B.


Sheesh. It was a minority government without the support of Libs they couldn't have come to pass. It isn't disingenuous it is just fact and reality, concepts that I know you sometimes have difficulty coming to grips with.


----------



## Macfury

Never let the facts get in the away of a good lefty fairy tale, screature.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sheesh. It was a minority government without the support of Libs they couldn't have come to pass. It isn't disingenuous it is just fact and reality, concepts that I know you sometimes have difficulty coming to grips with.


don't be ridiculous. Anyone watching the last election is fully aware of the liberals resistance to the corporate tax cuts. It was a well known election issue, which the liberals campaigned against, and the tories -for-. It was not the sole reason the opposition took down the government, but they did NOT support them on the corporate tax cuts last time. To make a blanket statement that the liberals supported the conservative corporate tax cuts is just not the truth, no matter how you try to spin the previous propping of the minority government budgets in the past.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Show me where the Libs said they were not supporting the budget because of corporate tax cuts and then you have the beginning of a factual argument.


No. How about you back up your statement that the liberals supported the conservative corporate tax cuts last election. I would like to see -those- facts.

The fact that the actual non confidence was not on the budget, doesn't show the liberals supported their corporate tax cut plan. Sorry.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Sheesh. It was a minority government without the support of Libs they couldn't have come to pass. It isn't disingenuous it is just fact and reality, concepts that I know you sometimes have difficulty coming to grips with.


Nope it was part of omnibus bills. Bills that included big tax cuts for big corporations but no spending cuts. The bills were put forth by the Cons it was their bill and their responsibility.

Anyone who lived through the Reagan/Bush-I era knows that cutting revenue while increasing expenses is a recipe for fiscal disaster. The Cons are reaping the results of their own legislation and those results are big deficits to go with their bigger Government Mantra.

EDIT: At the time this started there were big potential savings available by bringing Canadians home from Afghanistan early. Smaller cuts across the board could have picked up any slack. Instead they delayed the troop withdrawal.

Alternatively the Cons could have told their corporate puppet masters they would just have to wait until they had a majority and could implement the spending cuts essential to pay for the tax cuts. 

They did neither. 

They bear full responsibility. The attempt to spin this as the fault of other parties is called spin and there is no question that the Harpolites are better than most at this form of lying. I think this sort of BS is a large part of the reason that respect for politicians in general is at an all time low. Of course if they were capable of standing up and saying; "We screwed up royally!" They would almost certainly have picked a more honourable profession than politics.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> No. How about you back up your statement that the liberals supported the conservative corporate tax cuts last election.


.


----------



## groovetube

You enjoy just being a jerk instead of actually talking about the topic doncha sinc. That's just what you do. And then whine someone else is causing problems.

Come on then, you have a go at it. Show me where the liberals supported the cons corporate tax cuts around the last election.

Or is all you're good for is some useless pictures?


----------



## groovetube

Education creates more jobs than corporate tax cuts, Ignatieff argues - The Globe and Mail

hmmm. Doesn't sound like much support for the corporate tax cuts there.


----------



## Macfury

This reminds me of one of those Looney Tunes cats grabbing onto bits of grass as he's falling off a cliff!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Come on then, you have a go at it. Show me where the liberals supported the cons corporate tax cuts around the last election.


I can't be bothered. You would still claim to be right.


----------



## groovetube

You can't be bothered because you are more interested in posting stupid pictures rather than showing some intelligence on the topic.

Also because you know damn well the liberal did not support the corp tax cuts last election.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I can't be bothered. You would still claim to be right.


Exactly. By this point, any Liberal who ever said they didn't like corporate tax cuts would be seen as proof. "Seeeeeeee???? I wuz righhhhhhhht!!!"

However, when it came to the vote, the Liberals have supported these measures.


----------



## groovetube

Health Canada presides over launch of billion-dollar free market in marijuana | National Post

The cons get ready to supply up to half a million Canadians with medical pot! :lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> don't be ridiculous. Anyone watching the last election is fully aware of the liberals resistance to the corporate tax cuts. It was a well known election issue, which the liberals campaigned against, and the tories -for-. It was not the sole reason the opposition took down the government, but they did NOT support them on the corporate tax cuts last time. To make a blanket statement that the liberals supported the conservative corporate tax cuts is just not the truth, no matter how you try to spin the previous propping of the minority government budgets in the past.


I was very clear. Every time there was a vote on a government budget the Libs supported it. That is a fact and therefore they supported the corporate tax cuts in those budgets.

Had it come to a vote on Budget 2011 they may not have supported the budget. But the facts are this, the Libs supported the governments budget *every time* they had an opportunity to vote on one that is a plain and simple fact.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> No. *How about you back up your statement that the liberals supported the conservative corporate tax cuts last election. I would like to see -those- facts.
> 
> The fact that the actual non confidence was not on the budget, doesn't show the liberals supported their corporate tax cut plan.* Sorry.


See I never said that, none of it. If you want to misrepresent my statements, well that is your prerogative.

But they never came right out and said that corporate tax breaks was a deal breaker on the budget, just that they thought other *spending* such as on education (which is provincial jurisdiction to begin with) was a better way to go in their opinion.


----------



## groovetube

ah, you want to sneak under the fact that the liberals who were in no position to fight an election (obviously) and the country economically was in rough shape and voted previously to support the budgets, that that automatically makes the statement true. Sounds like you need this little technicality.

Clearly, in the last election, the liberal position was not only -against- the corp tax cuts, but they promised to raise them! They did not, support the corporate tax cuts. Everyone knows it one of several reasons for the opposition parties to pull the plug.

Those facts are clear as day.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Nope it was part of omnibus bills. Bills that included big tax cuts for big corporations but no spending cuts. The bills were put forth by the Cons it was their bill and their responsibility.
> 
> Anyone who lived through the Reagan/Bush-I era knows that cutting revenue while increasing expenses is a recipe for fiscal disaster. The Cons are reaping the results of their own legislation and those results are big deficits to go with their bigger Government Mantra.
> 
> EDIT: At the time this started there were big potential savings available by bringing Canadians home from Afghanistan early. Smaller cuts across the board could have picked up any slack. Instead they delayed the troop withdrawal.
> 
> Alternatively the Cons could have told their corporate puppet masters they would just have to wait until they had a majority and could implement the spending cuts essential to pay for the tax cuts.
> 
> They did neither.
> 
> They bear full responsibility. The attempt to spin this as the fault of other parties is called spin and there is no question that the Harpolites are better than most at this form of lying. I think this sort of BS is a large part of the reason that respect for politicians in general is at an all time low. Of course if they were capable of standing up and saying; "We screwed up royally!" They would almost certainly have picked a more honourable profession than politics.


Sorry you are wrong. If you vote in favor of a Bill while in the Opposition of a minority government where you have the power to bring down the government by voting against it you are fully culpable for the outcome of that Bill. Cut and dry. 

No spin, just the inconvenient truth unfortunately for your point of view.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *ah, you want to sneak under the fact that the liberals who were in no position to fight an election *(obviously) and the country economically was in rough shape and voted previously to support the budgets, that that automatically makes the statement true. Sounds like you need this little technicality.
> 
> Clearly, in the last election, the liberal position was not only -against- the corp tax cuts, but they promised to raise them! They did not, support the corporate tax cuts. *Everyone knows it one of several reasons for the opposition parties to pull the plug.*
> 
> Those facts are clear as day.


No ones fault but their own and if the didn't have enough strength of their own convictions to bring down a government that they were fundamentally opposed to then they obviously had no place being the government of the day.

Nonsense had there been no ruling by Milliken of contempt of Parliament there would have been no non-confidence motion.

The government may have ended up falling on the Budget anyhow, but we will never know.


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No ones fault but their own and if the didn't have enough strength of their own convictions to bring down a government that they were fundamentally opposed to then they obviously had no place being the government of the day.
> 
> Nonsense had there been no ruling by Milliken of contempt of Parliament there would have been no non-confidence motion.
> 
> The government may have ended up falling on the Budget anyhow, but we will never know.


I'm not debating whether th government would have fallen if there was no contempt finding. That, is a useless arguement. I don't know.

Netond that, bother the liberals, and the ndp were very vocal in their opposition to the corporate tax cuts. I find it somewhat ironic a few years later, that anyone would hold up liberal support in the past a some sort of stamp of approval that there was all party support for corporate tax cuts.

I think, the last round was unessecary, and Canadians will be, are paying for such a cash giveaway to the rich.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sorry you are wrong. If you vote in favor of a Bill while in the Opposition of a minority government where you have the power to bring down the government by voting against it you are fully culpable for the outcome of that Bill. Cut and dry.
> 
> No spin, just the inconvenient truth unfortunately for your point of view.


No, they did NOT vote in favour of the corporate tax cuts. The fact the non confidence vote occurred just before the budget vote, does not automatically mean they support the corporate tax cuts.

Your original statement, is completely wrong. 

Unless you can provide proof, the liberals supported the corporate tax cuts in the last election, you're WRONG.

Provide it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I'm not debating whether th government would have fallen if there was no contempt finding. That, is a useless arguement. I don't know.
> 
> Netond that, bother the liberals, and the ndp were very vocal in their opposition to the corporate tax cuts. I find it somewhat ironic a few years later, that anyone would hold up liberal support in the past a some sort of stamp of approval that there was all party support for corporate tax cuts.
> 
> I think, the last round was unessecary, and Canadians will be, are paying for such a cash giveaway to the rich.


And don't forget, I'm always right.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> And don't forget, I'm always right.


And don't forget, sinc's only here for a fight. Big surprise eh!

I have asked repeatedly for proof the liberals supported the corp tax cuts last election. If I'm wrong, I want to see that proof.

So far, screature has provided a feeble excuse that since the non-confidence occurred days before the budget vote, that's somehow proof they supported the cuts. Idiotic.

You, so far haven't shown the mental capacity to carry a conversation in this topic, only to take a dump with stupid pictures.

Now come on, let's see where the liberals supported the corporate tax cut last election. (leading up to the budget, or after when the writ was dropped).

I'm waiting. If I'm wrong, put up.


----------



## SINC

Screature has pointed out that fact to you time and again, but you're always right and deny the evidence. Sad really.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Screature has pointed out that fact to you time and again, but you're always right and deny the evidence. Sad really.


Gives me a smile to see you squirming with these inane responses. :lmao:

Any halfwit who followed last election knew the libs position on corp tax cuts. Macfury nearly crapped himself in glee over it. :lmao:

But that's just how things go here. You just like taking a big dump here, just that's just how you roll.

Perhaps you're a little cranky because your party is going to supply half a million people with pot! :lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'm not debating whether th government would have fallen if there was no contempt finding. That, is a useless arguement. I don't know.
> 
> Netond that, bother the liberals, and the ndp were very vocal in their opposition to the corporate tax cuts. I find it somewhat ironic a few years later, that anyone would hold up liberal support in the past a some sort of* stamp of approval that there was all party support for corporate tax cuts*.
> 
> I think, the last round was unessecary, and Canadians will be, are paying for such a cash giveaway to the rich.


There wasn't. The NDP voted against every government budget Bill... I will give them that... at least they stood by their principles come hell or high water. 

On the other hand, having been a card carrying member of the NDP in the '80s and attending Party youth conferences, anyone with a more tolerant point of view was consistently shouted down. So that they have a "united front" is not exactly surprising.


----------



## groovetube

Well the ndp at that time could afford to not support harpers government on budget bills. They knew bringing down the government wasn't going to be they're doing, it would be the liberals.

Granted the liberals holding their noses in the earlier days of harpers minority on budget bills can't be characterized as being principled. They got beaten up over that. And iggy took an even worse pummeling for not hding his nose in 2011.

As far as party whipping, I understand Harper exerts a great deal of control over his party as well.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> No, they did NOT vote in favour of the corporate tax cuts. The fact the non confidence vote occurred just before the budget vote, does not automatically mean they support the corporate tax cuts.
> 
> Your original statement, is completely wrong.
> 
> Unless you can provide proof, the liberals supported the corporate tax cuts in the last election, you're WRONG.
> 
> Provide it.


groovetube please read what I have posted because you consistently attribute to me things that I didn't say.

I never said the Libs supported corporate tax cuts in Budget 2011. I merely stated that they never definitively came out against them.

However, let me be clear, in every budget vote prior to the 2011 budget they voted YEA when it came to all other budgets which included corporate tax reductions. Period. Full stop. They did. Fact.

So stop trying to talk about a budget 2011 vote that never happened because it didn't. I never talked about the possible outcome as you seem want to do...

I try to talk about what *has* happened as opposed to what* might *have happened because what has happened is fact and what might of happened is pure speculation and conjecture.

At any rate, I think this is a topic that is at this point a dead horse and we have flogged it plenty enough and we will never agree...

So probably it is best that at this point in time we just agree to disagree and move on to the next topic.... that we will just have to agree to disagree with.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> groovetube please read what I have posted because you consistently attribute to me things that I didn't say.
> 
> I never said the Libs supported corporate tax cuts in Budget 2011. I merely stated that they never definitively came out against them.
> 
> However, let me be clear, in every budget vote prior to the 2011 budget they voted YEA when it came to all other budgets which included corporate tax reductions. Period. Full stop. They did. Fact.
> 
> So stop trying to talk about a budget 2011 vote that never happened because it didn't. I never talked about the possible outcome as you seem want to do...
> 
> I try to talk about what *has* happened as opposed to what* might *have happened because what has happened is fact and what might of happened is pure speculation and conjecture.
> 
> At any rate, I think this is a topic that is at this point a dead horse and we have flogged it plenty enough and we will never agree...
> 
> So probably it is best that at this point in time we just agree to disagree and move on to the next topic.... that we will just have to agree to disagree with.


Wait a second. Again, you're making that blanket statement.



> I never said the Libs supported corporate tax cuts in Budget 2011. *I merely stated that they never definitively came out against them*.


But they did definitively come out against them. They even campaigned on it. It was a major plank in the 2011 election.

Yes I grant you they didn't vote against the previous budgets. Obviously. But there's the difference in the two party's policies. The cons wanted the tax cuts, the libs, nope. The libs lost spectacularly in the last election. but my guess is voters rejected iggy, not so much the reversal on corp tax cuts.

yes it is a dead horse now. We have hangers oners taking useless pot shots now.


----------



## Macfury

My Liberals-s-s-s-s-s-s-s, my prescious-s-s-s-s-s-s-s....


----------



## SINC

Forget it folks, he's right. He marches to the beat of his own drum. Like always. Riiiiiiiight.


----------



## groovetube

funny how 2 people are having a disagreement, and look who's in for the instigation of a fight.

As usual.

At least screature and I, can keep things on topic, despite hotly disagreeing. You, not so much.


----------



## Macfury

Screature was on topic. Someone else was in outer space.


----------



## Dr.G.

This from the first post in this thread --

"Now that the 2011 election is over, let's use this thread to discuss Canadian politics as they transpire over the next 4 years. 

Please keep the discussion civil and I kindly request no personal attacks or insults directed towards fellow ehMac members. 

It would be refreshing to avoid over-the-top hyperbole as well. We're all Canadians and lets not make people out to be left-wing or right-wing caricatures or turn things into a WWE fight promo."

So, the question I am wondering in the spirit of Canadian politics, is what is our government planning should the Congress fail to find some solution to the US debt crisis?

"For the rest of the world, a default in the U.S. would have inevitable influence worldwide. Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody's Analytics, talked to CBC senior business correspondent Amanda Lang about the potential fallout in the U.S.: "Financial markets will be roiled, stock prices will decline, it would be a severe recession and there literally is no policy response to it ... It'll be bedlam. It'll be a mess.""

U.S. debt showdown: 7 questions answered - World - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

The "default of the U.S. debt is pure theatre. Nothing will happen. However, much better the government shut down than Obamacare be allowed to wreak its economic devastation.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The "default of the U.S. debt is pure theatre. Nothing will happen. However, much better the government shut down than Obamacare be allowed to wreak its economic devastation.


I totally disagree, Macfury. Just the opposite shall happen should this come to pass. Saldy, I do NOT want to say "we shall see", in that I hope that some compromise is reached in the next couple of days.

My concern, as is the focus of this thread, is what might happen to the Canadian economy should this come to pass? What might be the position/reaction of our government?

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Nothing will happen. I am far more concerned about the degree to which Obama has held back the natural resilience of the U.S. economy. This has inflicted true damage on Canada's economy.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Nothing will happen. I am far more concerned about the degree to which Obama has held back the natural resilience of the U.S. economy. This has inflicted true damage on Canada's economy.


Well, let's agree to disagree on the actions of Pres. Obama for now. Still, I wonder what proactive stance our own government is considering in light of the possibility of a US default ?


----------



## Macfury

They are planning nothing, or next to nothing.


----------



## groovetube

More corporate tax cuts? 

I kid 

I have heard anything in the news regarding what our government is saying about this looming showdown.


----------



## eMacMan

With most US revenue being diverted directly to the banksters to pay interest on the debt, I would suggest a US default is a question of when not if.

The Cons passed a bank bail in measure almost identical to the one used to attack the bank customers in Cyprus. Intended for just this eventuality. It should be noted this was passed in almost identical form by almost every nation in the world.

Looks like round 2 is about to be launched in Panama. We will know more on Monday. The banksters are no doubt testing to make sure fewer individuals escape their gill net this time around.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> They are planning nothing, or next to nothing.





groovetube said:


> More corporate tax cuts?
> 
> I kid
> 
> I have heard anything in the news regarding what our government is saying about this looming showdown.


I have not heard anything as well, but I had hoped it was just because I missed something in the news. Guess I have to say it ........................ We shall see.

Paix, mes amis, et bonne chance.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More senatorial excrement for the Harper govt. The count is still on the upswing.

Sen. Carolyn Stewart Olsen Promises To Pay Back Wrongly Claimed Expenses


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I have not heard anything as well, but I had hoped it was just because I missed something in the news. Guess I have to say it ........................ We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mes amis, et bonne chance.


It's turning into the non-event I expected. It's usually only news if the media tries to blame it on the Republicans. It's a bold tactic when the Dems are responsible.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It's turning into the non-event I expected. It's usually only news if the media tries to blame it on the Republicans. It's a bold tactic when the Dems are responsible.


The two parties are one and the same. 

Obamacare was written by and with all benefits for; the Healthcare Insurance Companies. Make no mistake the Republirat wrath is all smoke and mirrors. They have no desire whatsoever to upset this bonanza the HICs are enjoying.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> The two parties are one and the same.
> 
> Obamacare was written by and with all benefits for; the Healthcare Insurance Companies. Make no mistake the Republirat wrath is all smoke and mirrors. They have no desire whatsoever to upset this bonanza the HICs are enjoying.


OOPS thought it was the US thread. However the comments still stand. 

From a practical point of view. Americans and Canadians both are probably somewhat better off with the US Government shut down.


----------



## CubaMark

This is how the amount of attention given by U.N. member states to Canada. Well done, Harper & Baird.

_So what did Mr. Baird have to say in the empty hall? John dropped a couple of impressive references to Homer and Cicero. Offered up the usual bromides about Israel's right to exist, because apparently in Canada there is still some confusion about the matter. Warned the world about the ulterior motives behind Iran's recent "charm offensive". Expressed concern for little girls and Syrians. Denounced the evil dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people.

If you want to know what he didn't talk about, you'll find it here in this handy fact sheet compiled by Canada's Assembly of First Nations._​
(ViewFromFallingDown)


----------



## Macfury

I wish Canada would pay the same attention to the UN, the most corrupt organization to grace the globe since the Roman Empire.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*From the what's behind Harper's curtains file*

More blundering decision making no doubt. - A majority was far too generous for these buffoons.

Tories mum on why they fired high-profile Parole Board appointee


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More blundering decision making no doubt. - A majority was far too generous for these buffoons.
> 
> Tories mum on why they fired high-profile Parole Board appointee


This is pitiful even for you jimbo. Do you think they should fire him --or not fire him?


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More blundering decision making no doubt. - A majority was far too generous for these buffoons.
> 
> Tories mum on why they fired high-profile Parole Board appointee


Little useful information there. Would hope that malfeasance or conflict of interest would have resulted in outright firing, but on the other hand no evidence that he dared to criticize Great Harpo.


----------



## groovetube

Veteran journalist under fire for asking Harper a question | CityNews

you asked a question?????!!!!!!

You are banished to the depths of fiery hell for your sins!!!

What the hell country do we live in again?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Common sense from Alberta re. tarsands - good news

Alberta decision to bar critics from oilsands hearing overturned - Edmonton - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark

*This is despicable. I agree with the principle that the Federal government has a right to expropriate land under extenuating circumstances - but this hardly seems to be the case. Truly sad.*

*Farmer loses land battle, though military grants him one last harvest*










_In Frank Meyers’s eyes, the view from his dining room window is priceless. Literally. He can see the old wooden house where he lived as a little boy. The family barn, rebuilt with his talented hands. Rows and rows of sweet corn, sprouting from prime Ontario soil. No matter how many federal bureaucrats knocked on his door—or how much cash they offered to pay—the 85-year-old farmer refused, again and again, to sell his beloved land. As he likes to say: “You can’t eat the money.”

* * * 

A senior military officer from CFB Trenton—joined, just in case, by members of the Ontario Provincial Police—visited the Meyers farm Tuesday morning to explain the inevitable next step. Effective immediately, for the first time in his life, Meyers has no legal right to step foot on “his” property. 

* * * 

Since the Harper Conservatives were first elected in 2006, they have proclaimed their plans to bring a specialized army unit to CFB Trenton, the country’s largest and busiest air force base. In 2009, Ottawa revealed that the incoming unit would be none other than JTF 2, Canada’s top-secret special forces squad, currently based on the outskirts of Ottawa. The move is the highlight of a massive base expansion project that will inject millions of dollars into the local economy (not to mention hundreds of heavily trained counterterrorism troops).

But as Maclean’s first reported, the plan didn’t sit well with a few local landowners, whose properties—unbeknownst to them—had been selected for JTF 2’s new 400-hectare home.

* * * 

When the government officially filed expropriation papers in February 2012, the Meyers family hired a lawyer and launched their only available appeal: an objection in front of an independent hearings officer. Their central argument was that the military had more than enough land to extend the base, and the Meyers’ 90 hectares weren’t necessary to complete the project. 

They also trumpeted the historical significance of the farm: the direct descendant of Capt. John Walden Meyers, a Loyalist war hero and founder of nearby Belleville, Ont., Frank Meyers farmed a portion of the very same plot of land King George III awarded to his legendary forefather for his service during the American Revolution. As Frank Meyers has said many times: “This property didn’t come from the Canadian government, it came from the British government. So if the Queen wants it, let her come and see me.”

The Harper government was unmoved. After reading the hearing officer’s report in May 2012, then-Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose declared the Meyers land “absolutely essential for the safety and security of Canada” and rubberstamped the expropriation papers. _​
(Macleans)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

CubaMark said:


> *This is despicable. I agree with the principle that the Federal government has a right to expropriate land under extenuating circumstances - but this hardly seems to be the case. Truly sad.*
> 
> *Farmer loses land battle, though military grants him one last harvest*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In Frank Meyers’s eyes, the view from his dining room window is priceless. Literally. He can see the old wooden house where he lived as a little boy. The family barn, rebuilt with his talented hands. Rows and rows of sweet corn, sprouting from prime Ontario soil. No matter how many federal bureaucrats knocked on his door—or how much cash they offered to pay—the 85-year-old farmer refused, again and again, to sell his beloved land. As he likes to say: “You can’t eat the money.”
> 
> * * *
> 
> A senior military officer from CFB Trenton—joined, just in case, by members of the Ontario Provincial Police—visited the Meyers farm Tuesday morning to explain the inevitable next step. Effective immediately, for the first time in his life, Meyers has no legal right to step foot on “his” property.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Since the Harper Conservatives were first elected in 2006, they have proclaimed their plans to bring a specialized army unit to CFB Trenton, the country’s largest and busiest air force base. In 2009, Ottawa revealed that the incoming unit would be none other than JTF 2, Canada’s top-secret special forces squad, currently based on the outskirts of Ottawa. The move is the highlight of a massive base expansion project that will inject millions of dollars into the local economy (not to mention hundreds of heavily trained counterterrorism troops).
> 
> But as Maclean’s first reported, the plan didn’t sit well with a few local landowners, whose properties—unbeknownst to them—had been selected for JTF 2’s new 400-hectare home.
> 
> * * *
> 
> When the government officially filed expropriation papers in February 2012, the Meyers family hired a lawyer and launched their only available appeal: an objection in front of an independent hearings officer. Their central argument was that the military had more than enough land to extend the base, and the Meyers’ 90 hectares weren’t necessary to complete the project.
> 
> They also trumpeted the historical significance of the farm: the direct descendant of Capt. John Walden Meyers, a Loyalist war hero and founder of nearby Belleville, Ont., Frank Meyers farmed a portion of the very same plot of land King George III awarded to his legendary forefather for his service during the American Revolution. As Frank Meyers has said many times: “This property didn’t come from the Canadian government, it came from the British government. So if the Queen wants it, let her come and see me.”
> 
> The Harper government was unmoved. After reading the hearing officer’s report in May 2012, then-Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose declared the Meyers land “absolutely essential for the safety and security of Canada” and rubberstamped the expropriation papers. _​
> (Macleans)


Disgusting!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper is a chicken*

Chicken Harper -

PMO backs down on threat to bar journalist for asking Stephen Harper a question: Tim Harper | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Common sense from Alberta re. tarsands - good news
> 
> Alberta decision to bar critics from oilsands hearing overturned - Edmonton - CBC News


Absolutely, Jimbo. These people must be heard before the oilsands proposal is accepted.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Chicken Harper -
> 
> PMO backs down on threat to bar journalist for asking Stephen Harper a question: Tim Harper | Toronto Star


Looks like they were both to blame, Jimbo. From the same column:



> There is, in fact, an unwritten, unspoken rule, arcane as it sounds, that questions are not to be shouted at the prime minister during photo ops.


Even though Ellis acted stupidly, the PMO's office was ultimately the bigger "man."


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *This is despicable. I agree with the principle that the Federal government has a right to expropriate land under extenuating circumstances - but this hardly seems to be the case. Truly sad.*


*

Why don't they just change the constitution and steal it from him as the Cubans dd!*


----------



## CubaMark

Weak one, MF.

And here's my brother-in-law's reaction to the story (he's Cape Breton Mi'kmaq): *now people know how we feel*


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Weak one, MF.


Not at all. Your support for property rights is applied only when it suits you emotionally. If they had seized the man's land to build a collective it would not have been troubling.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper and liars*

Harper appointing liar to Supreme Court. Unfit for majority govt.

Justice Marc Nadon Backtracks On NHL Draft Claim


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Chicken Harper -
> 
> PMO backs down on threat to bar journalist for asking Stephen Harper a question: Tim Harper | Toronto Star


I resent you calling Stephen Harper a Chicken...it's really unfair to real Chickens every where.

I do agree that when you stand up to a bully, the bully backs down.

My hope the media grows a pair and puts an end to the foolishness. Stephen Harper is Canadian's employee, he is accountable and answerable to the people and the media to inform us.

The media are not just the conduit for the Conservative propaganda machine. That is the purpose of Conservative Action Plan advertising which unfortunately the people pay for.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> I resent you calling Stephen Harper a Chicken...it's really unfair to real Chickens every where.
> 
> I do agree that when you stand up to a bully, the bully backs down.
> 
> My hope the media grows a pair and puts an end to the foolishness. Stephen Harper is Canadian's employee, he is accountable and answerable to the people and the media to inform us.
> 
> The media are not just the conduit for the Conservative propaganda machine. That is the purpose of Conservative Action Plan advertising which unfortunately the people pay for.


I apologize. I am truly sorry to have offended real chickens.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I resent you calling Stephen Harper a Chicken...it's really unfair to real Chickens every where.
> 
> *I do agree that when you stand up to a bully, the bully backs down.*
> 
> My hope the media grows a pair and puts an end to the foolishness. Stephen Harper is Canadian's employee, he is accountable and answerable to the people and the media to inform us.
> 
> The media are not just the conduit for the Conservative propaganda machine. That is the purpose of Conservative Action Plan advertising which unfortunately the people pay for.


Indeed. Bullies usually depend on people not saying anything. WHy do they do it? It's because they can.


----------



## Macfury

It's hilarious to me to watch grown men complaining about being bullied.


----------



## groovetube

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper appointing liar to Supreme Court. Unfit for majority govt.
> 
> Justice Marc Nadon Backtracks On NHL Draft Claim


Seems to me he is just putting the normal Con spin to the word 'drafted'. Something along the lines of the Cons claiming the revenue shortfall due to the Con Corporate tax cuts, was really the fault of the Liberals.

Still these guys are going to lie/spin, no matter which party leader they happen to worship. As lies go this one is relatively harmless. 

OTOH it does keep him off my: People I Would Like to Meet list.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It's hilarious to me to watch grown men complaining about being bullied.


It's hilarious to me to watch grown men complain about being bullied by Harper & then welcome it with open arms from the Liberals.


----------



## groovetube

No development dollars for abortions after war rape, child marriage: Paradis | CTV News

So, what's the message here, you get raped in war, raped as a child screw you have the child whether you like it or not?

Is the far right christian right showing their ugly colors here?



> The British government explicitly said earlier this year that its development budget can be used to provide abortion care where allowed by national laws.


Well at least the British aren't as ideologically calloused as our government.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Is the far right christian right showing their ugly colors here?
> 
> Well at least the British aren't as ideologically calloused as our government.


If we were funding it, you would likely hold the exact opposite position. 

'Course that is the normal troll way.


----------



## groovetube

What brainless stupidity.

I'd be much happier for the sake of the women and child victims of rape, if we did fund this.

Wouldn't you?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Brainless and crass.


----------



## groovetube

it's only being reported in most major news outlets, so if I link to it here, it's trolling.

Can you imagine playing that game with women and children being raped?

Totally disgusting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> it's only being reported in most major news outlets, so if I link to it here, it's trolling.
> 
> Can you imagine playing that game with women and children being raped?
> 
> Totally disgusting.


In the past such comments would result in a suspension from ehmac. But times have changed and certain members seem content to fire personal barbs at members. Very sad. 

Keep in mind these culprits are the minority. Hopefully they stay a small fringe group and are recognized as such.


----------



## groovetube

well now I just fire them back. There's consequences. 

I'm happy not to have to, if they so wish. I prefer just to post on topic, as it should be, but a certain few members obsessively take it personal all the time. Interesting that they rarely contribute to the actual topic, they just sit around reading people's posts waiting for the opportunity to stomp in and yell.

Sad.


----------



## CubaMark

*Spying? The Harper Conservative Government of Canada is becoming more and more like their idols to the south of us with every passing day...*

*Canada Spying On Brazil? President Dilma Rousseff Tells Harper Government To Explain Itself*



Brazil demanded answers Monday following allegations Canada's electronic eavesdropping agency mounted a sophisticated spy operation against the South American country's ministry of mines and energy.

Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff accused the Ottawa-based Communications Security Establishment Canada of engaging in industrial espionage.

Foreign Minister Luiz Alberto Figueiredo summoned the Canadian ambassador in the capital of Brasilia to "transmit the indignation of the Brazilian government and demand explanations," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

* * * 

CSEC, with headquarters ringed by tall fencing in Ottawa's south end, monitors foreign computer, satellite, radio and telephone traffic for intelligence of interest to Canada.

It has a staff of more than 2,000 — including skilled mathematicians, linguists and computer whizzes — and a budget of about $400 million. It plans to move to elaborate new facilities in Ottawa's east end next to Canada's domestic spy agency.

Earlier documents leaked by Snowden suggest Canada helped the United States and Britain spy on participants at the London G20 summit four years ago. Britain's Guardian newspaper published presentation slides describing the operation, including one featuring the CSEC emblem.​
(HuffPo)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Spying? The Harper Conservative Government of Canada is becoming more and more like their idols to the south of us with every passing day...*


Tim Harper gets it even if you don't CM.

In a spy versus spy world, our Brazilian caper should not shock



> Canadians may find it unseemly and some of the Brazilian outrage may be real, but no one should be shocked that we are today standing accused of spying.
> 
> We should not take this news with a shrug, but to think that security agencies are not trying to poke holes in the privacy of other nations around the world on a daily basis in 2013 is naive.
> 
> We have certainly been targeted. Did we believe this was a one-way street?
> 
> It is also worth remembering the recent, sometimes frosty, history between Brasilia and Ottawa....


----------



## groovetube

I was under the impression that this was not just 'spying on another nation', but a little closer to industrial espionage. Energy companies, no less...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I was under the impression that this was not just 'spying on another nation', but a little closer to industrial espionage. Energy companies, no less...



Actually no, Brazil’s Mines and Energy Ministry, if you read the article.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Actually no, Brazil’s Mines and Energy Ministry, if you read the article.


Even so it still leaves the impression that Canada's spies are working for the corporate puppet masters rather than the people of Canada.


----------



## FeXL

Gotta love them Liberals...

$1,000,000,000 pissed away, just to shut down two gas plants in Ontario. Wondering how everybody is sitting this morning...

Gas plant report shreds Liberals



> It would be hard to imagine a report more damaging to the credibility of Ontario’s Liberal government than the one released Tuesday by Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk on its decision to cancel the Oakville gas plant.


Ontario PCs demand election in wake of AG report on cancelled gas plants



> "Someone needs to be held accountable and responsible for that, someone's head needs to roll -- and someone needs to be fired and I would suggest it be Kathleen Wynne that's fired," MacLeod said Tuesday, following the release of the auditor general's report into the costs of cancelling a gas plant in Oakville.


Ontario Liberals’ gas-plant cancellations cost $1-billion: auditor



> Ontario’s Liberal government will spend a billion dollars to cancel two gas-fired power plants, *a sum that puts the scandal among the costliest in the province’s history* and threatens to damage the party months before an expected election.
> 
> What’s more, Liberal intervention – including from staff in former premier Dalton McGuinty’s office – drove that price tag far higher than it needed to be, Auditor-General Bonnie Lysyk said on Tuesday.


Bold mine.

I'm sure that won't change the opinion of the sheeple, however...


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Even so it still leaves the impression that *Canada's spies are working for the corporate puppet masters rather than the people of Canada.*


 To some people I guess who already have a penchant to believe such things.


----------



## groovetube

looks pretty obvious to me...


----------



## MacGuiver

> Gotta love them Liberals...
> 
> $1,000,000,000 pissed away, just to shut down two gas plants in Ontario. Wondering how everybody is sitting this morning...
> 
> Gas plant report shreds Liberals


Yeah but Mike Duffy (A Conservative) *allegedly* siphoned off $60,000 to his buddy. Judging by media coverage, Liberals stealing a billion tax payer bucks to win two seats in an election is somewhat less of a concern.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> Yeah but Mike Duffy (A Conservative) *allegedly* siphoned off $60,000 to his buddy. Judging by media coverage, Liberals stealing a billion tax payer bucks to win two seats in an election is somewhat less of a concern.


Good thing for Harper he didn't appoint Wynne, or those now-silent EhMacers would be on this in a second!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> looks pretty obvious to me...


Like I said...


----------



## FeXL

Further on (Ontario) Liberals pissing money away.

In Liberal-run Ontario... everybody is a "Wynner"...



> _The large salaries and bonuses drawn down by 2015 Pan Am Games executives *were necessary to win the major sporting event*, Premier Kathleen Wynne says._​


Bold from the link.

Two additional links inside, details in the second of which should raise the hair on the back of the neck of any red-blooded taxpayer in the province.



> But Wynne suggested Monday that is all behind them — the typical Liberal spin on any spending abuse, large or small — and that we should all be “celebrating” that the GTA won the games.
> 
> Well, I’ll put my party hat on right now.
> 
> Those bothersome little expense issues?
> 
> “There was an auditor’s report that looked at the expenses,” she said. “There have been changes that were put in place in May as the result of those recommendations.”
> 
> There was no mention of why the Liberals hung on to the audit report for more than a year, only releasing it kicking and screaming last Friday when forced to do so by the members of estimates committee.


Anybody down there getting that loving feeling yet?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I was under the impression that this was not just 'spying on another nation', but a little closer to industrial espionage. Energy companies, no less...





screature said:


> Actually no, Brazil’s Mines and Energy Ministry, if you read the article.





eMacMan said:


> Even so it still leaves the impression that Canada's spies are working for the corporate puppet masters rather than the people of Canada.





screature said:


> *To some people I guess who already have a penchant to believe such things.*


Hmmm. Pretty obvious how this would benefit certain of Harpo's pet corporations. Perhaps you can explain how Canadians in general benefit?


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Hmmm. Pretty obvious how this would benefit certain of Harpo's pet corporations. Perhaps you can explain how Canadians in general benefit?


It's a "much ado about nothing" thing 

In more local news:
Ontario NDP pour cold water on Tory efforts to force election over $1.1-billion cost of cancelled gas plants | National Post

McGuinty shouldn't have won the last election. As much as I loathe Tim Hudak, and the damage he will do to Ontario, McGuinty needed to be kicked to the curb. One term of Hudak will jolt Ontarians enough, but let's remember, the honeymoon with corporate oil promoter Stephen Harper is long over here, so likely Ontarians didn't want a little Harper running around here either.

But this liberal government under McGuinty was well past it's best before date.

What's too bad is Wynne, I like so far.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> It's a "much ado about nothing" thing
> 
> In more local news:
> Ontario NDP pour cold water on Tory efforts to force election over $1.1-billion cost of cancelled gas plants | National Post
> 
> McGuinty shouldn't have won the last election. As much as I loathe Tim Hudak, and the damage he will do to Ontario, McGuinty needed to be kicked to the curb. One term of Hudak will jolt Ontarians enough, but let's remember, the honeymoon with corporate oil promoter Stephen Harper is long over here, so likely Ontarians didn't want a little Harper running around here either.
> 
> But this liberal government under McGuinty was well past it's best before date.
> 
> What's too bad is Wynne, I like so far.


Day late, dollar short and 8 hours behind.

Yeah, groove, them Libs would never screw things up as much as the Conservatives. A billion dollars on one boondoggle. One! Imagine the damage they could do in a couple of terms! 

Oh, wait...

In addition, if you're gonna come play in the sandbox, at least show up to read the headlines on time...


----------



## groovetube

Afghan interpreter Sayed Shah Sharifi's family targeted by Taliban insurgents | Toronto Star

Why isn't the promised help being honoured after these people put their lives on the line to help?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Afghan interpreter Sayed Shah Sharifi's family targeted by Taliban insurgents | Toronto Star
> 
> Why isn't the promised help being honoured after these people put their lives on the line to help?


Be fair! The Cons are trying to weasle out on their obligations to our own vets, why would anyone think they would honour commitments to foreigners.


----------



## CubaMark

*Looks like Calgarians have quite a choice on their hands for Mayor...*

*Larry Heather, Calgary Mayoral Candidate, Blasts Nenshi's Muslim Faith*

_
Calgarians will be tempting God's wrath if they re-elect Naheed Nenshi to the mayor's chair in the coming election, a mayoral candidates forum heard on Monday.

The comments were made by mayoral candidate Larry Heather, who describes himself as the Christian option on the ballot.

* * *​
Heather went on to quote from the Old Testament a warning about destruction if people stray from God’s will, the Herald reported.

In order to remove all doubt about the seriousness of his intentions, he was grave about the sincerity of his fundamentalist Christian campaign.

“We have a broken covenant with the God of the Bible that needs to be renewed,” he said, according to the CBC.

But the candidate didn't reserve all his fire and brimstone for Calgary's popular mayor

According to the Sun, Heather also pointed a finger at single mothers whom he called a driving force behind poverty..._​
(HuffPo)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Looks like Calgarians have quite a choice on their hands for Mayor...*
> 
> *Larry Heather, Calgary Mayoral Candidate, Blasts Nenshi's Muslim Faith*
> 
> _
> Calgarians will be tempting God's wrath if they re-elect Naheed Nenshi to the mayor's chair in the coming election, a mayoral candidates forum heard on Monday.
> 
> The comments were made by mayoral candidate Larry Heather, who describes himself as the Christian option on the ballot.
> 
> * * *​
> Heather went on to quote from the Old Testament a warning about destruction if people stray from God’s will, the Herald reported.
> 
> In order to remove all doubt about the seriousness of his intentions, he was grave about the sincerity of his fundamentalist Christian campaign.
> 
> “We have a broken covenant with the God of the Bible that needs to be renewed,” he said, according to the CBC.
> 
> But the candidate didn't reserve all his fire and brimstone for Calgary's popular mayor
> 
> According to the Sun, Heather also pointed a finger at single mothers whom he called a driving force behind poverty..._​
> (HuffPo)


I think that he is making the choice of Mayor of Calgary a bit easier ............... I know that I would be voting to re-elect Naheed Nenshi.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Looks like Calgarians have quite a choice on their hands for Mayor...*
> 
> *Larry Heather, Calgary Mayoral Candidate, Blasts Nenshi's Muslim Faith*
> 
> _
> Calgarians will be tempting God's wrath if they re-elect Naheed Nenshi to the mayor's chair in the coming election, a mayoral candidates forum heard on Monday.
> 
> The comments were made by mayoral candidate Larry Heather, who describes himself as the Christian option on the ballot.
> 
> * * *​
> Heather went on to quote from the Old Testament a warning about destruction if people stray from God’s will, the Herald reported.
> 
> In order to remove all doubt about the seriousness of his intentions, he was grave about the sincerity of his fundamentalist Christian campaign.
> 
> “We have a broken covenant with the God of the Bible that needs to be renewed,” he said, according to the CBC.
> 
> But the candidate didn't reserve all his fire and brimstone for Calgary's popular mayor
> 
> According to the Sun, Heather also pointed a finger at single mothers whom he called a driving force behind poverty..._​
> (HuffPo)


This isn't exactly news and yeah it's totally lame but, Nenshi is guilty of creating his own "demons" where they don't exist...

Absent a real opponent in the Calgary mayor’s race, Nenshi has invented one in the Manning Centre



> CALGARY — The presumed leading challenger in Calgary’s mayoral race made it back to town just in time for Monday night’s candidates forum. He was in Kansas competing at an international BBQ championship and had previously said his commitment to brisket would force him to skip the debate.
> 
> One fringe challenger, calling himself the Christian choice, warned Calgarians they faced hellfire and damnation for electing a mayor who swore on a Koran rather than a Bible.
> 
> And in the middle of them stood that incumbent mayor, Naheed Nenshi, not so long ago a scrappy, come-from-behind, long-shot candidate himself. He knows he is virtually assured of another term after the Oct. 21st election. There are opponents; it’s just that none of them currently pose a credible threat.
> 
> *And yet, Mr. Nenshi has been acting like a man under fire. He has pointed accusing fingers at the Manning Centre for Building Democracy, and its affiliated foundation. He has implied that the centre, headed by Reform party founder Preston Manning, is part of something resembling a nefarious cabal; a think tank backed by Calgary’s suburban home builders, desperate to wiggle its meddlesome, capitalist fingers into the local municipal politics pie.*
> 
> He has demanded the Manning Centre reveal its donors. He has compared their actions to the SuperPACs — the big-money stalking horses that have invaded U.S. politics. He has accused them of running a stealth slate of business-cozy candidates. “This is the corrosive element of money in politics,” he said this week.
> 
> If Mr. Nenshi needed a challenger to run against, he was not about to find one on the list of relatively weak nine mayoral candidates. *The Manning Centre has instead become his bêtenoire. As it turns out, the centre may not be as antagonistic to Mr. Nenshi’s policies as he thinks. Or, at least as what he wants voters to think.*
> 
> The pillar of Mr. Nenshi campaign strategy revolves around increasing developer levies to the tune of $4,800 per house. The levies had been eliminated entirely by the previous mayor. Mr. Nenshi needs at least eight friendly aldermen to ensure he maintains control on council for the next four years. And it will be a crucial term; one in which the mayor plans to stymie the enormous pace growth of the suburbs and encourage higher-density urban development in the downtown core — raising the price of suburban development being part of that plan. In an unprecedented move for Calgary politics, he has officially endorsed all the incumbent aldermen, evidently part of his defence against the powerful assault of the home builders.
> 
> *Mr. Nenshi is right that the Manning organization has an agenda, though it does not appear to be quite the one that the mayor portrays. It has funded a lobby group, Common Sense Calgary, to raise issues about “out-of-control” spending, traffic congestion, and community safety. Manning has also published a series of conservative-tinged reports on municipal governance and Calgary’s city council.*
> 
> Another report was released on Tuesday.
> 
> *To everyone’s great surprise, perhaps Mr. Nenshi’s most of all, “Managing the Costs of Growth” was hardly a radical prescription for laissez-faire suburban development.*
> 
> *Written by Ben Brunnen, a policy and economics consultant in the city, the Manning report points out that Calgary’s tendency toward wide streets, big homes and spacious yards — all the blessings of open space, economic prosperity and cheap transportation — is an expensive luxury. Infrastructure for single-family homes costs more to build and maintain per unit than infrastructure that services higher-density development.
> 
> Mr. Brunnen recommends a tax regime that puts the increased costs of that kind of development squarely on those who use it.
> “What we need to be doing is moving away from taxing people strictly on assessed property value to taxing them based on actual use,” he said. “Chances are, all housing forms would pay a little more if we were pricing growth based on the true costs.”
> 
> In other words, suburbanites who take up more space, require the addition of new infrastructure and services, and use more of the city’s roads, should be paying more of that cost, rather than some of that cost spreading to other ratepayers in the city.
> 
> This analysis is not without its problems, but much of Mr. Brunnen’s report could have come right out of mayor Nenshi’s campaign office.
> 
> Mr. Brunnen even tacitly endorsed ending the implicit subsidization of suburban developments, and the $4,800 levy.*
> 
> “It’s a good thing if it’s applied equitably across all types of development,” he said.
> 
> *Mr. Nenshi was gratified, and yet proceeded to insinuate that the Manning Centre must have gone rogue, against its home builder masters.
> 
> “I suspect they got some angry phone calls from their donors this morning, but good on them for actually standing up for the correct free market principle, here,” he said.
> 
> But it had been only Mr. Nenshi’s presumption all along that the Manning group had been corrupted by the builders, and was corrupting politics in turn. It goes to show how comparatively over-the-top the rhetoric had become in a campaign that had, elsewhere, lacked tension. There are developers unhappy with city council’s shift in tone, certainly, but there was never much more to it than that.
> 
> Absent a real fight, the mayor has been left to shadow box, dampening his own charm and perhaps with it, his popularity, while needlessly polarizing urban and suburban dwellers in the process.*


Nenshi seems like a Lib or NDP candidate in waiting with such rabid disregard of the facts.

He even looks the part...


----------



## groovetube

Amazing how a "lib or ndp" candidate could do so well in a town like Calgary! :lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Amazing how a "lib or ndp" candidate* could do so well in a town like Calgary! :lmao:


He isn't yet... did you miss that part? 

But he sure talks like an up and comer.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> He isn't yet... did you miss that part?
> 
> But he sure talks like an up and comer.


Someone didn't read the post... again.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> He isn't yet... did you miss that part?
> 
> But he sure talks like an up and comer.


By the way you're making it out, he's already going for the leadership of the ndp!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> By the way you're making it out, he's already going for the leadership of the ndp!


All I can do is shake my head... I wish there was an emoticon for this... but alas there isn't and such a comment isn't worth any more words or my time.


----------



## groovetube

I sorta thought the same about your comment about Nenshi, but thought I'd just make some light jokes about it. No harm done.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More proof of not fit for a majority:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...d_the_supreme_court_appointment_analysis.html

Bungling Harper.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More proof of not fit for a majority:
> 
> How Harper bungled the Supreme Court appointment: Analysis | Toronto Star
> 
> Bungling Harper.


The judiciary didn't get what they wanted. Wahhhhhhhh! (And folks, he doesn't lean to the left).

Good Harper!


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More proof of not fit for a majority:
> 
> How Harper bungled the Supreme Court appointment: Analysis | Toronto Star
> 
> Bungling Harper.


wow. After having read the article I wasn't aware of how much of a mess Harper has made here.

Nice work Mr. Harper! :clap:


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *Looks like Calgarians have quite a choice on their hands for Mayor...*
> 
> *Larry Heather, Calgary Mayoral Candidate, Blasts Nenshi's Muslim Faith*
> 
> _
> Calgarians will be tempting God's wrath if they re-elect Naheed Nenshi to the mayor's chair in the coming election, a mayoral candidates forum heard on Monday.
> 
> The comments were made by mayoral candidate Larry Heather, who describes himself as the Christian option on the ballot.
> 
> * * *​
> Heather went on to quote from the Old Testament a warning about destruction if people stray from God’s will, the Herald reported.
> 
> In order to remove all doubt about the seriousness of his intentions, he was grave about the sincerity of his fundamentalist Christian campaign.
> 
> “We have a broken covenant with the God of the Bible that needs to be renewed,” he said, according to the CBC.
> 
> But the candidate didn't reserve all his fire and brimstone for Calgary's popular mayor
> 
> According to the Sun, Heather also pointed a finger at single mothers whom he called a driving force behind poverty..._​
> (HuffPo)


Now there's the Cowtown/Alberta stereotype some are comfortable with.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> wow. After having read the article I wasn't aware of how much of a mess Harper has made here.
> 
> Nice work Mr. Harper! :clap:


I'm not to sure this isn't a wedge issue appointment by Mr. Harper.

Harper will tie up the Court Appointment for months if not 5 years. He has started the process to politicize the Court and undermine it good name and good work.

This foolishness may bump the Senate scandal off the front page. All good, for a piece of work that is Stephen Harper.


----------



## eMacMan

For those of you whom dare to doubt that St. Harpo is doing everything possible to curb needless government expenditures, may we present:

https://www.openmedia.ca/blog/spy-a...canadian-government-building-ever-constructed

For CSEC no less. At over a $Billion to build and $100,000,000/year just to maintain, this absolutely has to be the perfect representation of the Cons much ballyhooed fiscal restraint.


----------



## groovetube

billion here, billion there, it's just taxpayer money!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> billion here, billion there, it's just taxpayer money!


With interest rates on savings, bonds and GICs so low, I just keep my money in a spare bedroom. Luckily, I bought a great deal of US currency when the Canadian dollar was way above par with the US dollar. Was able to get tax exemptions for each of the doxie pups in the last litter due to a loophole in the tax code since we are a CKC registered kennel. So this year, even with my university salary, I should get a tax refund of about $137,982.83 ...... give or take a dime or two. So, I really don't worry about how they spend taxpayers money since I don't have to pay taxes. :greedy:

Still, if I did have to pay taxes, I would be pissed off. tptptptp


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> billion here, billion there, it's just taxpayer money!


Hmmm, valid comment or troll? What do you think? Inciting flares from others, or legit? Hard to tell these days. Likely troll comes to mind.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> billion here, billion there, it's just taxpayer money!





SINC said:


> Hmmm, valid comment or troll? What do you think? Inciting flares from others, or legit? Hard to tell these days. Likely troll comes to mind.


Given the Harpo gangs remarkable inability to control spending, I would go with valid comment!


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Given the Harpo gangs remarkable inability to control spending, I would go with valid comment!


Pay no attention, the obsession continues... 

Precisely what my comment was about. Same comment I've heard those rabble make back when the liberals were in power. :lmao:


----------



## Ottawaman

SINC said:


> Hmmm, valid comment or troll? What do you think? Inciting flares from others, or legit? Hard to tell these days. Likely troll comes to mind.


Much the same could be said for your insightful comment.


----------



## BigDL

Ottawaman said:


> Much the same could be said for your insightful comment.


I have to wonder is a psychological pathology the issue here?



Dictionary said:


> projection |prəˈjekSHən|
> noun
> 1 an estimate or forecast of a future situation or trend based on a study of present ones: plans based on projections of slow but positive growth | population projection is essential for planning.
> 2 the presentation of an image on a surface, esp. a movie screen: quality illustrations for overhead projection.
> • an image projected in such a way: the background projections featured humpback whales.
> • the ability to make a sound, esp. the voice, heard at a distance: I taught him voice projection.
> 3 the presentation or promotion of someone or something in a particular way: the legal profession's projection of an image of altruism.
> • a mental image viewed as reality: monsters can be understood as mental projections of mankind's fears.
> *• the unconscious transfer of one's own desires or emotions to another person: we protect the self by a number of defense mechanisms, including repression and projection.*
> 4 a thing that extends outward from something else: the particle board covered all the sharp projections.
> 5 Geometry the action of projecting a figure.
> 6 the representation on a plane surface of any part of the surface of the earth or a celestial sphere.
> • (also map projection )a method by which such representation may be done.


----------



## Dr.G.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." JFK

Getting back to Canadian politics, it should be very interesting to see what the Harper government highlights and ignores in the upcoming Throne Speech. Word on the street has it that consumer issues shall take the forefront, while the Senate scandals will be ignored. We shall see.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." JFK
> 
> Getting back to Canadian politics, it should be very interesting to see what the Harper government highlights and ignores in the upcoming Throne Speech. Word on the street has it that consumer issues shall take the forefront, while the Senate scandals will be ignored. We shall see.


Given the stock idiotic response some Con MPs have sent out to FATCA inquiries; any one who is American, was born in the US, has American parents, at one time worked stateside, is married to an American, ever had a greencard.... can expect to be FATCA'd. Clearly if the Cons intend to stand up to the mugger next door they would not be advising a million+ Canadians to spend tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars on special US tax consultants even though they don't really owe the IRS a dime in taxes.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Given the stock idiotic response some Con MPs have sent out to FATCA inquiries; any one who is American, was born in the US, has American parents, at one time worked stateside, is married to an American, ever had a greencard.... can expect to be FATCA'd. Clearly if the Cons intend to stand up to the mugger next door they would not be advising a million+ Canadians to spend tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars on special US tax consultants even though they don't really owe the IRS a dime in taxes.


I filed my US tax returns for the past seven years in June. I don't own any taxes to the US. All that remains to be seen is if they want to penalize me and "ask" for 1/4 of my RRSP .............. which I shall refuse to turn over to the IRS. We shall see.

Wonder if there will be any tax reforms in the next Canadian budget?


----------



## groovetube

More corporate tax cuts?

I'll be interested in seeing what this 'consumer first' agenda means as well. 

My guess is more trickle down trinkets.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I filed my US tax returns for the past seven years in June. I don't own any taxes to the US. All that remains to be seen is if they want to penalize me and "ask" for 1/4 of my RRSP .............. which I shall refuse to turn over to the IRS. We shall see.
> 
> Wonder if there will be any tax reforms in the next Canadian budget?


What the US is demanding is that the Canadian Banks or the CRA turn it over for you, hence the outrage. What is even worse is that your RRSPs are covered by existing treaty, the IRS wants to steal a quarter of them because people failed to file a form declaring the RRSPs. Made worse by the fact that the IRS tried to keep the very existence of said form hidden from Americans residing in Canada.

As to reforms I kinda hope not, as usually they make things more complicated rather than simpler.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> More corporate tax cuts?
> 
> I'll be interested in seeing what this 'consumer first' agenda means as well.
> 
> My guess is more trickle down trinkets.


We shall see, gt, we shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> What the US is demanding is that the Canadian Banks or the CRA turn it over for you, hence the outrage. What is even worse is that your RRSPs are covered by existing treaty, the IRS wants to steal a quarter of them because people failed to file a form declaring the RRSPs. Made worse by the fact that the IRS tried to keep the very existence of said form hidden from Americans residing in Canada.
> 
> As to reforms I kinda hope not, as usually they make things more complicated rather than simpler.


Well, I had to turn over all my RRSP, checking account, savings account and TFSA figures for the past 7 years to the IRS to prove that I was not laundering money. My only source of income is my university salary, and since I have no assets in the US or income from the US, the paper trail is quite simple. All the IRS can do is demand that I pay the fine, which I shall refuse. I know that I shall not be able to go to the US anymore, but I can't see ruining my retirement for this tax grab. We shall see.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Well, I had to turn over all my RRSP, checking account, savings account and TFSA figures for the past 7 years to the IRS to prove that I was not laundering money. My only source of income is my university salary, and since I have no assets in the US or income from the US, the paper trail is quite simple. All the IRS can do is demand that I pay the fine, which I shall refuse. I know that I shall not be able to go to the US anymore, but I can't see ruining my retirement for this tax grab. We shall see.


More than a few Americans are chucking their citizenship altogether over this issue. Interestingly the FBI list seems to have about 10x as many names as the so-called official listings.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> More corporate tax cuts?
> 
> I'll be interested in seeing what this 'consumer first' agenda means as well.
> 
> My guess is more trickle down trinkets.


I'm thinking the corporate or any other tax cut is out the question. This Conservative Government is bankrupt of any new ideas why not trot out NDP ideas for the Throne Speech. 

How many times (in a Throne Speech) and for how long now are we waiting on Senate reform legislation or action? 

Please don't hold your breath for any drafted legislation regarding consumer rights or benefits to pass through the House.
:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> This Conservative Government is bankrupt of any new ideas why not trot out NDP ideas for the Throne Speech.


Vladimir Lenin already tried those. Didn't work out.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I'm thinking the corporate or any other tax cut is out the question. This Conservative Government is bankrupt of any new ideas why not trot out NDP ideas for the Throne Speech.
> 
> How many times (in a Throne Speech) and for how long now are we waiting on Senate reform legislation or action?
> 
> Please don't hold your breath for any drafted legislation regarding consumer rights or benefits to pass through the House.
> :lmao:


Senate reform would be nice, but I don't think the word "Senate" shall even be mentioned. We shall see.


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## eMacMan

Try again!
RMR: Rick's Rant - Government Shutdown - YouTube


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> How many times (in a Throne Speech) and for how long now are we waiting on Senate reform legislation or action?


Senate reform action has already been underway for some time. The hold up is the Supreme Court. The govt took the issue directly to them to give a judgement on very specifically what they can and cannot do to pre-empt any subsequent court challenges. We're still waiting for the SCC to do that.

Besides that, we have seen some of those reforms in actions already, and it's front and centre on the news. The financial reporting and public disclosure for Senate expenses was never required before. It was this government that made the reporting and the audits mandatory.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Try again!
> RMR: Rick's Rant - Government Shutdown - YouTube


Good one. Always liked RM's "rants".


----------



## FeXL

Ontario drives manufacturers away with overpriced electricity



> he laws of economics suggest that when supply goes up, prices fall.
> 
> Not so in Ontario’s increasingly twisted electricity market.
> 
> Here, heavily discounted surplus power is routinely sold to neighbouring utilities in Quebec and various U.S. states, while customers at home face a steady diet of higher rates.


Yep.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Ontario drives manufacturers away with overpriced electricity
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.


The only reason we can meet Ontario's electricity needs is because McGuinty drove the economy into a tailspin. The remaining businesses don't require as much electricity.


----------



## Dr.G.

Senate moving to suspend Pamela Wallin, Mike Duffy - Politics - CBC News

Well, hopefully with their Senate pension they will not be forced to go on public assistance. We shall see.


----------



## BigDL

*Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame of FOOLS*

Suspended, without pay, still does not make for the bad judgement on shown by the appointer. 

Not only the bad judgement but breaking his word, appointing non-elected senators, and appointing non-elected senators with such a vengeance. Lest we forget about his chief of staff.

Shame on Stephen Harper, for bad judgement and for being such a coward, hiding out in Europe, now that Parliament is back in session. SHAME!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Suspended, without pay, still does not make for the bad judgement on shown by the appointer.
> 
> Not only the bad judgement but breaking his word, appointing non-elected senators, and appointing non-elected senators with such a vengeance. Lest we forget about his chief of staff.
> 
> *Shame on Stephen Harper, for bad judgement and for being such a coward, hiding out in Europe, now that Parliament is back in session.* SHAME!


How ridiculous! He will have to face his accusers soon enough.

Personally I think a free trade deal worth billions upon billions of dollars is more important than answering theatrical questions from a bunch of petulant children (well Mulcair isn't a child, just delusional, thinking the the NDP are going to form government in 2015... ).

But then again it isn't a surprising protest coming from an Opposition opposed to free/international trade and who want to build a wall around Canada where all we do is conduct business amongst ourselves.

Harper will face his salivating accusers next week... poor, poor Official Opposition they have to wait a few days... my heart bleeds for them. :-(


----------



## groovetube

Against free trade? Pfft.

I'll settle for being against the sort of deals like the ones we saw with the Chinese taking over an oil patch company.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Personally I think a free trade deal worth billions upon billions of dollars is more important than answering theatrical questions from a bunch of petulant children....
> 
> But then again it isn't a surprising protest coming from an Opposition opposed to free/international trade and who want to build a wall around Canada where all we do is conduct business amongst ourselves.


Hard to believe that in this day and age, there are people who still see free trade agreements as net positives (background).


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Hard to believe that in this day and age, there are people who still see free trade agreements as net positives (background).


Which of those many claims on that web page are you personally backing? Again, are you just supplying links or are you able to defend and debate their claims?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Hard to believe that in this day and age, there are people who still see free trade agreements as net positives (background).


The Council for Canadians is the best you've got as validation...? 

So now I really know we are going to have to agree to disagree right out of the gate... This "discussion" is a non-starter.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Against free trade? Pfft.
> 
> I'll settle for being against the sort of deals like the ones we saw with the Chinese taking over an oil patch company.


I thought you weren't in favor of oil sands development?


----------



## eMacMan

For those that worship hypocrisy. 

This quote from the Globe certainly points the finger at the champs.



> There are only two countries in the world that levy income tax based on citizenship rather than residence; one is Eritrea and the other is the United States. But while Canada fulminates and threatens mayhem against Eritrea, it says nothing about the U.S. Even worse, it is actively negotiating with the U.S. to implement an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) that would have Canada Revenue Agency help the U.S. IRS track down its citizens in Canada and bring them into the U.S. tax fold.


Note: It is not only US citizens but any one the Americans claim is a US "person".


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I thought you weren't in favor of oil sands development?


Exactly. If we shouldn't be developing the oil sands at all, who cares if the Chinese now own one tiny sliver of it?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I thought you weren't in favor of oil sands development?


perhaps reread my post again?? (FIPA?)


----------



## Macfury

On this throne speech I like:
* Balanced budget legislation
* letting cable TV customers pick the channel of their choice to pay for
* slashing roaming costs for cellphone customers.

I don't like:
* forbidding companies from making customers pay extra for paper bills instead of electronic ones. This is micro-regulation of the sort that becomes meddlesome.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> perhaps reread my post again?? (FIPA?)


I read your post, I thought you were against oil sands development?


----------



## groovetube

It's anyone's guess I suppose as to why you are asking an unrelated question.

I'm talking about the deals being made with other countries.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It's anyone's guess I suppose as to why you are asking an unrelated question.


Of course it's related.



groovetube said:


> I'm talking about the deals being made with other countries.


I know... you don't seem to get it.

MF pointed it out.

If you are against the oil sands development on basic principle, then why should you care what company aids in their development...?

And BTW CNOOC, has a very, very small interest (relatively speaking) in the oil sands... Also as MF pointed out.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Of course it's related. I know... you don't seem to get it.


Tough one guys. When you deal with someone who is always right, (just ask him), it's a losing battle. Some days it seems better just to let him rant and ignore him. Without anyone to rattle sabres with, he will have to be right again all by himself. I've stopped engaging that kind of mentality and life is much more peaceful. Leave the trolling to the expert so he can continue to play both the victim and the always right card all by himself.


----------



## groovetube

Oh grow up. It's a simple disagreement jerk. Screature I'll reply later if this crap can cease.


----------



## groovetube

groovetube said:


> Against free trade? Pfft.
> 
> I'll settle for being against the sort of deals like the ones we saw with the Chinese taking over an oil patch company.





screature said:


> Of course it's related.
> 
> 
> 
> I know... you don't seem to get it.
> 
> MF pointed it out.
> 
> If you are against the oil sands development on basic principle, then why should you care what company aids in their development...?
> 
> And BTW CNOOC, has a very, very small interest (relatively speaking) in the oil sands... Also as MF pointed out.


You've read things into my post that aren't there. My original post, we were talking about *free trade*, not the oil sands. You quipped that some may be against any free trade at all. Personally, I'm not completely against free trade in principle, just not for the kind of concessions and power handed to a foreign country, and I used FIPA as an example of the sort of power, legal protections etc., I don't wish to see extended.

How that has anything to do with the subject of supporting the mining of oil in the tar sands, I'm not sure. Other than to diffuse my point.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You've read things into my post that aren't there. My original post, we were talking about *free trade*, not the oil sands. You quipped that some may be against any free trade at all. Personally, I'm not completely against free trade in principle, just not for the kind of concessions and power handed to a foreign country, and I used FIPA as an example of the sort of power, legal protections etc., I don't wish to see extended.
> 
> How that has anything to do with the subject of supporting the mining of oil in the tar sands, I'm not sure. Other than to diffuse my point.


A FIPA is not a free trade agreement. It is a Foreign Investment Protection Agreement:



> What is a FIPA?
> 
> A FIPA is an international treaty providing binding obligations on host governments regarding their treatment of foreign investors and investments. By setting out clear rules and an effective enforcement mechanism, a FIPA provides a stable legal framework to promote and protect foreign investment. It typically sets out a range of obligations that host governments guarantee pertaining to non-discriminatory treatment, expropriation, transfer of funds, transparency, due process and dispute settlement.
> 
> While Canada concludes FIPAs to protect Canadian investment abroad, the disciplines are reciprocal and serve to reinforce Canada as a stable and predictable destination for foreign investment. In this respect, FIPAs help enhance two-way investment flows between signatory countries.
> 
> In the absence of a FIPA, Canadian investors rely primarily on host country laws and institutions for protection, which adds a variety of risks to their ventures. While there is a general trend in favour of greater openness to foreign investment, significant country risks still exist. For instance, according to the UNCTAD 2005 World Investment Report, an unusually high number of new policies introduced by host governments in 2004 made conditions less favourable for foreign companies to enter the market and affects the domestic investment conditions more generally.


Canada’s FIPA Program: Its Purpose, Objective and Content

So your contentions regarding free trade and China is misplaced.

But once again, if you are against the oil sands development, which you have indicated in the past that you are, then why does it matter to you who is involved withe their development at all?

Also just to add the FIPA with China has not yet been ratified.


----------



## eMacMan

*The big question here is: Does it provide similar protection for the host nations should the foreign investors prove to be of the parasitic variety.*



screature said:


> A FIPA is not a free trade agreement. It is a Foreign Investment Protection Agreement:
> 
> 
> 
> What is a FIPA?
> 
> A FIPA is an international treaty providing binding obligations on host governments regarding their treatment of foreign investors and investments. By setting out clear rules and an effective enforcement mechanism, a FIPA provides a stable legal framework to promote and protect foreign investment. It typically sets out a range of obligations that host governments guarantee pertaining to non-discriminatory treatment, expropriation, transfer of funds, transparency, due process and dispute settlement.
> 
> While Canada concludes FIPAs to protect Canadian investment abroad, the disciplines are reciprocal and serve to reinforce Canada as a stable and predictable destination for foreign investment. In this respect, FIPAs help enhance two-way investment flows between signatory countries.
> 
> In the absence of a FIPA, Canadian investors rely primarily on host country laws and institutions for protection, which adds a variety of risks to their ventures. While there is a general trend in favour of greater openness to foreign investment, significant country risks still exist. For instance, according to the UNCTAD 2005 World Investment Report, an unusually high number of new policies introduced by host governments in 2004 made conditions less favourable for foreign companies to enter the market and affects the domestic investment conditions more generally.
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s FIPA Program: Its Purpose, Objective and Content
> 
> So your contentions regarding free trade and China is misplaced.
Click to expand...


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The big question here is does it provide similar protection for the host nations *should the foreign investors prove parasitic*.


I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. All foreign investment must still clear the net benefit hurdles set out by industry Canada.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> A FIPA is not a free trade agreement. It is a Foreign Investment Protection Agreement:
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s FIPA Program: Its Purpose, Objective and Content
> 
> So your contentions regarding free trade and China is misplaced.
> 
> But once again, if you are against the oil sands development, which you have indicated in the past that you are, then why does it matter to you who is involved withe their development at all?
> 
> Also just to add the FIPA with China has not yet been ratified.


I realize that FIPA is not a free trade agreement screature, jeeeeeeesus! 

The point is, what sort of concessions and legal strength are we giving foreign countries in our deals. It's no more complicated than this.

I'm not against free trade deals (or other deals...) in general, but I think it's wise as a citizen to be concerned about how this affects us, and who this really benefits.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. All foreign investment must still clear the net benefit hurdles set out by industry Canada.


and there is the concern. Just because it clears what Industry Canada sees as beneficial, do we then just accept it carte blanche and move on?

I haven;'t read enough on the EU free trade deal to really comment much yet.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *I realize that FIPA is not a free trade agreement scripture, jeeeeeeesus! *
> 
> The point is, what sort of concessions and legal strength are we giving foreign countries in our deals. It's no more complicated than this.
> 
> *I'm not against free trade deals (or other deals...) in general, but I think it's wise as a citizen to be concerned about how this affects us, and who this really benefits.*


No need to get your knickers in a knot groove. And BTW the name is screature not scripture, I would appreciate at least that level of respect if you truly want to engage in a civil discussion/debate.

You mention free trade and a FIPA with China in the same breath so it is quite easy for me to interpret that you see them as being the same thing... I don't reside in your head.

FIPAs are meant to be win-win agreements for investors from both countries, i.e. reciprocal benefit. 

It is good that you have such interest. That being said if you really are that interested then you should read beyond what the media publishes and read the actual FIPA agreement and decide for yourself.

Agreement Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the People's Republic of China for the Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> and there is the concern. *Just because it clears what Industry Canada sees as beneficial, do we then just accept it carte blanche and move on?
> *
> I haven;'t read enough on the EU free trade deal to really comment much yet.


Well yes that is the nature of how things work. If they didn't work that way we could never get anything done. The amount of scrutiny done by Industry Canada is not insignificant in fact it is substantial.

I don't know why it is that some people (not necessarily saying you) think that our government, its agencies, and ministries want to do anything other than what is best for Canada. We may disagree as to what is "best" for Canada but I do believe that they believe they are trying to make the best decisions possible for what is in the interest of our nation and not some other nation.


----------



## eMacMan

One good example is allowing GMO agricultural products to be grown in Canada.

If/when these are later proven harmful, can Canada then evict the seed purveyors or do these agreements tie our hands?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No need to get your knickers in a knot groove. And BTW the name is screature not scripture, I would appreciate at least that level of respect if you truly want to engage in a civil discussion/debate.
> 
> You mention free trade and a FIPA with China in the same breath so it is quite easy for me to interpret that you see them as being the same thing... I don't reside in your head.
> 
> FIPAs are meant to be win-win agreements for investors from both countries, i.e. reciprocal benefit.
> 
> It is good that you have such interest. That being said if you really are that interested then you should read beyond what the media publishes and read the actual FIPA agreement and decide for yourself.
> 
> Agreement Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the People's Republic of China for the Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments


sorry about 'scripture'. Auto correct constantly tries to auto correct screature to that. If you have auto correct, try it.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> sorry about 'scripture'. Auto correct constantly tries to auto correct screature to that. If you have auto correct, try it.


Fair enough.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> sorry about 'scripture'. Auto correct constantly tries to auto correct screature to that. If you have auto correct, try it.


:lmao:

I have a friend named Knudt, spell check would have me re-label him Nude.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> One good example is allowing GMO agricultural products to be grown in Canada.
> 
> If/when these are later proven harmful, can Canada then evict the seed purveyors or do these agreements tie our hands?


If Health Canada and/or Ag Canada at some time in the future determine any product to be "harmful" our regs apply.

It is just a matter that the other nation should be informed ahead of implementation, i.e., fair warning and for a chance for rebuttal by the foreign nation.



> Transparency of Laws, Regulations and Policies
> 
> 1. Each Contracting Party shall, with a view to promoting the understanding of its laws and policies that pertain to or affect a covered investment:
> (a) make such laws and policies public and readily accessible;
> (b) if requested, provide copies of specified laws and policies to the other Contracting Party; and
> (c) if requested, consult with the other Contracting Party with a view to explaining specified laws and policies.
> 2. Each Contracting Party shall ensure that its laws, regulations and policies pertaining to the conditions of admission of investments, including procedures for application and registration, criteria used for assessment and approval, timelines for processing an application and rendering a decision, and review or appeal procedures of a decision, are administered in a manner that enables investors of the other Contracting Party to become acquainted with them.
> 3. Each Contracting Party is encouraged to:
> (a) publish in advance any measure that it proposes to adopt; and
> (b) provide interested persons and the other Contracting Party a reasonable opportunity to comment on the proposed measure.


----------



## groovetube

but isn't GMO difficult to remove once it's there?


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> but isn't GMO difficult to remove once it's there?


Why would it be? Till the ground, and plant something else. What am I missing?


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Why would it be? Till the ground, and plant something else. What am I missing?


That pollen from GMO plants drift on the wind and have been proven to contaminate neighbours open seed stock crops.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> but isn't GMO difficult to remove once it's there?





heavyall said:


> Why would it be? Till the ground, and plant something else. What am I missing?


The fear of the anti-GMO movement is that of cross contamination with other non-GMO modified crops, not that GMO modified crops are difficult to remove.

GMO crops undergo rigorous scrutiny by Ag and Health Canada before they can be certified. These are not political decisions, they are based on science performed by scientists, the rulings are based on those findings.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> That pollen from GMO plants drift on the wind and have been proven to contaminate neighbours open seed stock crops.


Your neighbours won't have any to drift in the wind if it gets pulled by Health Canada.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> That pollen from GMO plants drift on the wind and have been proven to contaminate neighbours open seed stock crops.


Actually the science that was conducted by the EU scientists has been thrown into question. 

I am not at work right now and so I don't have access to the link for this but when I am back at work and have some time (might take a while) I will endeavor to post back.


----------



## screature

An interesting read...

Is Stephen Harper still a conservative? 



> For decades after he arrived in Canada from Punjab, India, Gurmeet Singh voted Liberal without hesitation, in gratitude for Pierre Trudeau’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms. But in 2011 he voted Conservative for the first time in his life, and now believes it’s the party he should have supported all along.
> 
> “Social, religious as well as the family values – all those values match with the Conservatives,” said Mr. Singh, 54. “I don’t know how the Sikh community in general or the Indian community in general were voting for Liberals for so long.”
> 
> But although Mr. Singh thinks the Conservatives deserve at least one more term in office, he’s concerned that the party has “shifted more towards the centre.” He wishes it would return to its right-wing roots. It’s an increasingly common refrain, in the wake of this week’s Throne Speech.
> 
> Stephen Harper is the prime minister who drove the law-and-order omnibus bill, the man who made cutting sales and corporate taxes a top priority and who has given Canada the reputation of having Israel’s back like no other nation. His party, the Conservative Party, is infused with his own dedication to economic and social conservatism. Rather than being a brokerage party, it is values-based.
> 
> So, how can a Conservative government, which should support minimal regulation and the free play of market forces, propose limits on mobile-phone roaming fees and order banks to reduce service charges? How can the same government make NDP-style polluter-pay promises and legislation to fight cyberbullying?
> 
> It has some of Mr. Harper’s oldest allies and friends wondering what has happened to him.
> 
> “It’s my hope that Stephen Harper will soon get back to the values we had in 1993,” said Myron Thompson, the former Reform and Conservative MP from Sundre, Alta.
> 
> “I hope he hasn’t lost them, but he’s certainly gotten away from them.”
> 
> So how conservative is Stephen Harper, really? Is he still a conservative at all?...


----------



## FeXL

Unfortunately, I think all major political parties have moved towards centrism, simply as a means of vote-getting.

Far left or far right political views will immediately eliminate a major portion of the populace. If you are considered centrist (either slightly right or slightly left), more people will hold their nose & vote for you.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> The fear of the anti-GMO movement is that of cross contamination with other non-GMO modified crops, not that GMO modified crops are difficult to remove.
> 
> GMO crops undergo rigorous scrutiny by Ag and Health Canada before they can be certified. These are not political decisions, they are based on science performed by scientists, the rulings are based on those findings.


Monsanto vs Farmer | The Grand Disillusion



> The Schmeisers, like hundreds of thousands of farmers all over the world, were using their canola (oilseed rape) seed from year to year and developing new varieties suitable for climatic soil conditions on the prairies.





> In 1998, two years after the introduction of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) in Canada, the Schmeisers received a lawsuit notice from Monsanto which said that they were growing Roundup Ready canola without a licence from Monsanto and that this was a patent infringement. Monsanto had a patent on a gene to make GM canola resistant to the glyphosate herbicide in its formulation Roundup. This came as a complete surprise to the Schmeisers who immediately realised that all their research and development on canola over the past fifty years had been contaminated by Monsanto’s GMOs.





> The Court ruled after a two-and-half-week trial that it was the first patent infringement case on a higher life form in the world. The Judge’s ruling and Percy Schmeiser’s name became famous overnight:
> 
> ·It does not matter how a farmer, a forester, or a gardener’s seed or plants become contaminated with GMOs; whether through cross pollination, pollen blowing in the wind, by bees, direct seed movement or seed transportation, the growers no longer own their seeds or plants under patent law, they becomes Monsanto’s property.
> 
> ·The rate of GM contamination does not matter; whether it’s 1 percent, 2 percent, 10 percent, or more, the seeds and plants still belong to Monsanto.
> 
> ·It’s immaterial how the GM contamination occurs, or where it comes from.
> 
> The Schmeisers tracked down the source of the contamination. It was their neighbour who had planted GM crops in 1996 with no fence or buffer between them. Nevertheless, the Schmeisers’ seeds and plants reverted to Monsanto, and they were not allowed to use their own seeds and plants again, nor keep any profit from their canola crop in 1998.


----------



## Macfury

As the Supreme Court judgement stated, the Monsanto seed is resistant to plant-killer Roundup. Schmeiser found Monsanto plants on his own field which he did not plant. Monsanto had no beef with this. They DID have a beef with Schmeiser *killing his own crop *with Roundup, then harvesting Monsanto's Roundup-resistant seeds to grow next year's crop.



> Schmeiser complained that the original plants came onto his land without his intervention. However, he did not at all explain why he sprayed Roundup to isolate the Roundup Ready plants he found on his land; why he then harvested the plants and segregated the seeds, saved them, and kept them for seed; why he planted them; and why, through his husbandry, he ended up with 1,030 acres of Roundup Ready canola which would have cost him $15,000.
> 
> …tests revealed that 95 to 98 percent of this 1,000 acres of canola crop was made up of Roundup Ready plants. …The trial judge found that “none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality” ultimately present in Schmeiser’s crop.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> *Unfortunately, I think all major political parties have moved towards centrism, simply as a means of vote-getting.*
> 
> Far left or far right political views will immediately eliminate a major portion of the populace. If you are considered centrist (either slightly right or slightly left), more people will hold their nose & vote for you.


Well I don't know if it unfortunate or not, but it is an observable trend, at least in Canada.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think it's unfortunate at all.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Scenes from under the toupé -

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/10/19/the-longer-im-prime-minister-stephen-harper-and-canada/


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> As the Supreme Court judgement stated, the Monsanto seed is resistant to plant-killer Roundup. Schmeiser found Monsanto plants on his own field which he did not plant. Monsanto had no beef with this. They DID have a beef with Schmeiser *killing his own crop *with Roundup, then harvesting Monsanto's Roundup-resistant seeds to grow next year's crop.


And again, you miss the point - GMO crops have been shown to migrate to neighbouring fields (cross-polination I have no idea about). 

Regardless of the potential cross-breeding, farmers who do not want GMO products may find themselves harvesting GMO intermixed with their natural crops (or worse, their organic crops).


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Regardless of the potential cross-breeding, farmers who do not want GMO products may find themselves harvesting GMO intermixed with their natural crops (or worse, their organic crops).


What about expensive GMO crops being infected by inferior seed from weak neighbouring organic crops? Can they sue for the value of the pest-ridden harvest that forms the organic portion?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> What about expensive GMO crops being infected by inferior seed from weak neighbouring organic crops? Can they sue for the value of the pest-ridden harvest that forms the organic portion?


Given that GMO tends to be lower yield and questionable quality, such contamination is likely to be an improvement.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Given that GMO tends to be lower yield and questionable quality*, such contamination is likely to be an improvement.


First of all, GMO crops are not all the same, so stop talking as if they are...

Second, I don't know where you get that idea from, especially when in difficult growing conditions (for which varying GMOs were developed) they have increased yield without any so called "quality" issues.

Why would any farmer buy a seed that lowers yield and quality...??? Why? 

It makes no economic sense whatsoever.

Just think about it for a second, before you "kneejerk" reply.


----------



## eMacMan

Reminder that today is municipal elections day in Alberta and some other provinces as well. While the federal parties and candidates believe their job is to represent the policies of their parties/government to their constituents, the same is/should not be true at the local level. Here is one area where your vote can make a difference and I urge people to take advantage of that.

Locally we are anticipating a blood bath as the current council attempted to instigate a Trudeau/Harpo top down style of government at the local level. Judging by the attendance at the ratepayers meetings the locals want a bigger say in decisions that impact our community. Something tells me we are going to get exactly that.


So again please get out and vote.


----------



## groovetube

If Harper was hoping this would go away soon, he's mistaken. It seems it may get uglier,

Mike Duffy will fight move to suspend him from Senate: lawyer | CTV News

And I also saw that Wallin's lawyer is out to fight the suspension as well.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Locally we are anticipating a blood bath as the current council attempted to instigate a Trudeau/Harpo top down style of government at the local level.


Where is "locally"?


----------



## groovetube

Corporate Canada ready to spend in 2014 on signs of global rebound: CIBC | Financial Post

It sure is a good thing we gave them massive tax cuts isn't it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Corporate Canada ready to spend in 2014 on signs of global rebound: CIBC | Financial Post
> 
> It sure is a good thing we gave them massive tax cuts isn't it.


Yep, it sure is. Another good idea that is paying off.


----------



## groovetube

well so far, the corporations have hoarded an unprecedented amount of cash. I'm not quite sure how this is 'paying off', except perhaps for the corporation itself.

I should add, that there has been no evidence to suggest these tax cuts would create jobs or create a booming economy. Certainly looking at what president Clinton did, and what Bush after him did, makes this quite clear.


----------



## groovetube

Straw men don



> After almost eight years in power, a leader’s mind often turns to his legacy. And no matter what Stephen Harper accomplishes in the next two years or beyond, he can now take comfort that his place in history is secure: he will always be remembered as the prime minister who protected Canadians from paying more to receive paper invoices rather than electronic ones.


:lmao::clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Go Duffy. Go Duffy. Go Duffy!

WWW

Waiting for Wallin in Wadena!

The next shoe to drop. 

Harper govt. not fit for majority.


----------



## BigDL

It's always a good day when Conservatives are slinging $#it at each other!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> It's always a good day when Conservatives are slinging $#it at each other!


Yes sir ree. 

Especially the holier than thou crowd.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I was just listening to As It Happens and the puffster's lawyer reduces the PMO to the Harper chumps they are. 

More to come once Wallin unloads. 

A great day for democracy!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Go Duffy. Go Duffy. Go Duffy!
> 
> WWW
> 
> Waiting for Wallin in Wadena!
> 
> The next shoe to drop.
> 
> Harper govt. not fit for majority.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I was just listening to As It Happens and the puffster's lawyer reduces the PMO to the Harper chumps they are.
> 
> More to come once Wallin unloads.
> 
> A great day for democracy!


I have to laugh.

Duffy was persona non grata for months now... a liar and a cheat and now that *his lawyer* makes a statement somehow it is the gospel, the god's honest truth. 

No chance at all that is he continuing to lie (through his lawyer) to save his fat ass... no chance of that at all.

It boggles the mind, but then again it doesn't... the Opposition isn't interested in the truth all they are interested in is skewering the government, the truth be damned, get a headline regardless of the fact that the investigation is ongoing and no charges have been laid.

One is always guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion and amongst the Opposition.

Charlie Angus seems to want to have his cake and eat it too... 

For his accused gerrymandering of the Electoral Boundaries Commission he "makes no apologies" and yet he is his parties "ethics" critic and he tries to pretend that he sits his skinny ass on high ground... it is to laugh.

Pot meet kettle.


----------



## groovetube

When the liberals were in, there were ones being totally skewered as fraudsters before any investigations were finished, why should it be any different for the conservatives ? 

Harper sure made hay over Goodale being corrupt in the middle of an election before any investigations could be concluded, as one example.

A bit of hypocrisy it seems to me.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> A bit of hypocrisy it seems to me.


Really, who cares what you think? It is what it is, without any verbiage from anyone.


----------



## whatiwant

SINC said:


> Really, who cares what you think? It is what it is, without any verbiage from anyone.


...


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Really, who cares what you think? It is what it is, without any verbiage from anyone.


And there we have it. Not even 24 hours later, a post, nothing to contribute to the topic, not even a reference to what we were disagreeing on, just following me around to simply attack me.

Screw you. Get help.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Just ignore the a hole.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*At Issue special edition on PMO scandal*

Here's last night's at issue panel minus Chantal Hebert but still good and to the point.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32U9fSG0QBE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUKjU3KzdbJE1EFcHVqXC3_g[/ame]

Brought to you by the not ready for majority Harper government.


----------



## groovetube

wow, this is wild. The prime minister is definitely lying here.

The whole 'much ado about nothing' attempts aren;t going to fly anymore. I'm sure con supporters will be really hoping this will blow over.


----------



## Macfury

I love the way that Mike Duffy has suddenly become the very model of truth and justice to those who hate him.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> wow, this is wild. The prime minister is definitely lying here.
> 
> The whole 'much ado about nothing' attempts aren;t going to fly anymore. I'm sure con supporters will be really hoping this will blow over.


I'm not sure he's lying about him being not completely in the know, but with his Chief of Staff, Personal Lawyer, and Senate leader all being involved in the scandal it is hard to believe that he was not in the know more than his very careful wording claims.

He looks like an idiot in the house repeating the same response over and over again. Only 2 more years for this majority schmuck.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I love the way that Mike Duffy has suddenly become the very model of truth and justice to those who hate him.


The only haters appear to be the Conservatives who appear to be nervous about details coming out. From my perspective I love to observe the CON infighting going on and the blackmailing from both sides PMO and Duffy. 

Hey who appointed this lot? That's right the leader of the not ready for majority government - Steve Harper.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The only haters appear to be the Conservatives who appear to be nervous about details coming out. From my perspective I love to observe the CON infighting going on and the blackmailing from both sides PMO and Duffy.
> 
> Hey who appointed this lot? That's right the leader of the not ready for majority government - Steve Harper.


even more amusing is all the cons who stood behind Duffy all this time, even Harper defending them, and now, not so much. :clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Super interview of Paul Wells on his new book about Steve Harper ;

PM Stephen Harper plays the long game, says author Paul Wells | The Current with Anna Maria Tremonti | CBC Radio


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Super interview of Paul Wells on his new book about Steve Harper ;
> 
> PM Stephen Harper plays the long game, says author Paul Wells | The Current with Anna Maria Tremonti | CBC Radio





> The Prime Minister may be notoriously inscrutable but after covering him for almost two decades journalist Paul Wells sees a meticulous, respected politician whose long term goal is to put an indelible Conservative stamp on the Canadian psyche. Paul Wells shares his insights on Stephen Harper.


I agree! These changes will never be undone!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I agree! These changes will never be undone!


Never say never, Macfury. The Liberals felt that with the Tories down to 2 seats that they would never return to power, and this helped lay the foundation for their entitlement mentality, and a myriad of things that angered the electorate. Much the same way of thinking is now being seen in the Conservatives of today. So, the next federal election shall be very interesting. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Never say never, Macfury. The Liberals felt that with the Tories down to 2 seats that they would never return to power, and this helped lay the foundation for their entitlement mentality, and a myriad of things that angered the electorate. Much the same way of thinking is now being seen in the Conservatives of today. So, the next federal election shall be very interesting. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I certainly never said the Conservatives won't face defeat. However, the next party in power will find it a daunting task to reverse a dozen years of systemic and structural changes to the way the country operates.

Should it be a sapling like Justin Trudeau, all the better.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I certainly never said the Conservatives won't face defeat. However, the next party in power will find it a daunting task to reverse a dozen years of systemic and structural changes to the way the country operates.
> 
> Should it be a sapling like Justin Trudeau, all the better.


A valid point, Macfury. I don't see a change of government in the next federal election, but a minority Conservative government is a possibility. Of course, there could just be lost seats for the NDP picked up by the Liberals, so no change in the Conservative majority. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> A valid point, Macfury. I don't see a change of government in the next federal election, but a minority Conservative government is a possibility. Of course, there could just be lost seats for the NDP picked up by the Liberals, so no change in the Conservative majority. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Very likely outcomes G. And I doubt it would take long to undo the 'conservatizing' of things as it has only been 8 years out of a century and a half


----------



## eMacMan

Has been interesting following the Con trail.

They got elected by claiming they were ethically superior as compared to the previous rulers. Since then they have done everything in their power to prove those claims false.

Anyways, they have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that my motto: "Never trust a politician" should be adopted by all Canadians.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Very likely outcomes G. And I doubt it would take long to undo the 'conservatizing' of things as it has only been 8 years out of a century and a half


We shall see, gt. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Anyways, they have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that my motto: "Never trust a politician" should be adopted by all Canadians.


Certainly--but it sounds like a lot of people on EhMac are hoping that the next party in power will rain free cash and social programs on their heads.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Has been interesting following the Con trail.
> 
> They got elected by claiming they were ethically superior as compared to the previous rulers. Since then they have done everything in their power to prove those claims false.
> 
> Anyways, they have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that my motto: "Never trust a politician" should be adopted by all Canadians.


I voted for the Conservatives when they first came to power, hoping to send a message to the Liberals and that I trusted our local Conservative MP, Norm Doyle, who pledged to give his provincial pension to local charities if he was elected to Parliament. He kept his word, but the pledge of honesty and openness by Harper never seemed to come about.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Certainly--but it sounds like a lot of people on EhMac are hoping that the next party in power will rain free cash and social programs on their heads.


Personally, I am not expected "free cash" since that would just be from tax dollars, Macfury, but some new social programs dealing with child care and early childhood and/or adult education would be nice, but I don't really see this taking place. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Personally, I am not expected "free cash" since that would just be from tax dollars, Macfury, but some new social programs dealing with child care and early childhood and/or adult education would be nice, but I don't really see this taking place. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


certainly I haven't expected any 'free cash' either, we both pay quite a bit in taxes as do many people. What I would like to see is more investment into the people of Canada, rather than corporations and their interests. And by investment I certainly don't mean handing free cash out by any means. It seems the thinking is, if our corporations are filthy rich and can run roughshod over our living space for their cash benefit, then somehow that's good for us?

Backwards thinking.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Personally, I am not expected "free cash" since that would just be from tax dollars, Macfury, but some new social programs dealing with child care and early childhood and/or adult education would be nice, but I don't really see this taking place. We shall see.


We can only hope they never take place, as they would just be taken from tax dollars.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> We can only hope they never take place, as they would just be taken from tax dollars.


True, but in my opinion, tax dollars well spent. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> True, but in my opinion, tax dollars well spent. We shall see.


agreed. And it seems, most Canadians appreciate well run effective social programs that benefit everyone.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> certainly I haven't expected any 'free cash' either, we both pay quite a bit in taxes as do many people. What I would like to see is more investment into the people of Canada, rather than corporations and their interests. And by investment I certainly don't mean handing free cash out by any means. It seems the thinking is, if our corporations are filthy rich and can run roughshod over our living space for their cash benefit, then somehow that's good for us?
> 
> Backwards thinking.


I would agree that investing in people and helping them to train for skills that are needed for employment is money well spent.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> agreed. And it seems, most Canadians appreciate well run effective social programs that benefit everyone.


"... most Canadians appreciate well run effective social programs that benefit everyone". Very true, gt. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> ".. most Canadians appreciate well run effective social programs that benefit everyone.


That doesn't impress me. Stealing my money and giving a little of it to everyone would certainly be appreciated by the recipients. I don't know of a single government program that I would consider both well-run AND effective. I might have to think about OAS, but it would be the only exception.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "... most Canadians appreciate well run effective social programs that benefit everyone". Very true, gt. :clap:


certainly far better than giving the ultra rich even more tax breaks than the rest of us do, so they can buy more cars and houses.

They really do have a certain percentage of the population trained to fight for this privilege!


----------



## groovetube

Image of the Day: Mike Duffy on-location - CBC 75th Anniversary



> In December 2008 Duffy was among 18 new appointees to the Senate. According to CTV, Duffy's first instinct was to turn down the honour, *but Prime Minister Stephen Harper persuaded him to take the job by asking him to help reform the Senate from the inside*.


:lmao::clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting point. If they are expelled they are off the hook for criminal charges. 

"Liberal Senators Terry Mercer and George Baker said they both intend to speak against the motion in the Senate. Baker believes the motion, if passed, could interfere with the possibility of criminal charges being laid against any of the three senators.

Baker said in an interview the Senate is considered a judicial body, and once it imposes a punitive measure on the senators, a criminal charge would be considered double jeopardy. "You should not foreclose a police investigation, especially when you asked them to investigate," he said, referring to the fact the Senate earlier passed a motion inviting the RCMP to investigate Duffy, Wallin and Brazeau."

Duffy, Wallin, Brazeau attend Senate debate on suspension - Politics - CBC News


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *The only haters appear to be the Conservatives who appear to be nervous about details coming out.* From my perspective I love to observe the CON infighting going on and the blackmailing from both sides PMO and Duffy.
> 
> Hey who appointed this lot? That's right the leader of the not ready for majority government - Steve Harper.


LOL... Like I said before. You believed Duffy to be a cheater and a liar and now that he makes a statement through his lawyer, somehow that is supposed to represent the "truth"?

Clearly you haven't watched Breaking Bad.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wow. Harper's going to have a hard time keeping is hair piece on now. 

Release the emails puffster.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wow. Harper's going to have a hard time keeping is hair piece on now.
> 
> Release the emails puffster.


If you think Harper wears a hair piece it is just further evidence that you are delusional.


----------



## groovetube

Mike Duffy claims Harper told him to repay expense money - Politics - CBC News



> Before a stunned audience of senators and reporters in the Senate gallery, Duffy said Harper told him, in the presence of his then chief of staff Nigel Wright, it was the perception of the "base" that was important, not what Duffy said about his own innocence. After Duffy said he didn't have the money, he related, "Nigel Wright said, 'Don't worry, I'll write the cheque.'"



ooooohhhhhh man this is getting juicier by the day! :clap::clap:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> LOL... Like I said before. You believed Duffy to be a cheater and a liar and now that he makes a statement through his lawyer, somehow that is supposed to represent the "truth"?
> 
> Clearly you haven't watched Breaking Bad.


I also believe Stephen Harper to be a liar as well, I'm not attributing any more credibility to either of them. But what I do know, a nice little cover up scheme was hatched and I don't believe for one second Harper knew nothing of this. And I'll easily guess that not many people will buy that either.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> If you think Harper wears a hair piece it is just further evidence that you are delusional.


It's a hairpiece or that's one bad Lego cut the boy gets. I opt for hairpiece given his brothers are bald.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It's a hairpiece or that's one bad Lego cut the boy gets. I opt for hairpiece given his brothers are bald.


wouldn't that just be the uh, topper eh? :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Mike Duffy claims Harper told him to repay expense money - Politics - CBC News

I agree. This sort of comment cannot be good for PM Harper. There is no way to spin it to his advantage. We shall see what, if any, fallout comes from this comment.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*The Emperor has lost his lid*

oh oh


----------



## groovetube

well that explains everything.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Mike Duffy claims Harper told him to repay expense money - Politics - CBC News
> 
> I agree. This sort of comment cannot be good for PM Harper. There is no way to spin it to his advantage. We shall see what, if any, fallout comes from this comment.


and further to what you mentioned earlier G:



> “You can’t be convicted twice – double jeopardy,” Baker said. “Legally speaking, brilliant move by the lawyers (at PMO) to get them off the hook.”


yeah. They're busy covering it all up, or sure trying….


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *It's a hairpiece or that's one bad Lego cut the boy gets. I opt for hairpiece given his brothers are bald*.


See, like I said further, evidence of your line of thinking or lack thereof...

Baldness is a recessive gene passed on by the mother, so that his brothers are balding is in no way decisively indicative of the likelihood of his being bald, it is a genetic crap shoot.

My mother had 3 bothers and two sisters. Her father had a full head of hair until the day he died in his 80s. She had one brother who displayed baldness, the other 2 had full heads of hair until they died.

So your understanding of the genetics of baldness seems in keeping with your understanding of politics... it seems lacking.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Naw he's a baldy who won't eat in public because he was never taught how to properly eat with a knife and fork. He prefers large spoons and pot licking.


----------



## Dr.G.

Mike Duffy and the Prime Minister’s Office move toward open warfare | canada.com

When I see the term "blackmail" I know that it is going to get even messier for all concerned. We shall see.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Mike Duffy claims Harper told him to repay expense money - Politics - CBC News
> 
> *I agree. This sort of comment cannot be good for PM Harper.* There is no way to spin it to his advantage. We shall see what, if any, fallout comes from this comment.


I agree it isn't good for Harper in the court of public opinion, but it doesn't mean Duffy is telling the truth... 

All it may mean is that a man with a heart condition is willing to say anything to have his heart meds paid for... after all he was willing to say/file anything to have his travel expenses paid for... seems like a pattern to me in terms of Duffy's apparent lack of ethics or understanding of the rules of the Senate.

If there is ever a "smoking gun" that *proves* that Harper was complicit in this affair then I will certainly join the band wagon in calling for his resignation or criminal proceedings (if a crime was committed) but until then, it is just a "he said, she said" situation and we need to wait for more *facts* to be come out, not just statements made through a lawyer by a disgraced Senator willing to say anything to save his fat ass.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> Mike Duffy and the Prime Minister’s Office move toward open warfare | canada.com
> 
> When I see the term "blackmail" I know that it is going to get even messier for all concerned. We shall see.


Yep. It's like Tony Soprano - bad guy vs. bad guy. 

So long majority!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. It's like Tony Soprano - bad guy vs. bad guy.
> 
> *So long majority*!


Probably so, but 2 years is lifetime in politics.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Probably so, but 2 years is lifetime in politics.


Agreed. You never know what the other numb skulls will do.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Agreed. You never know what the other numb skulls will do.


Agreed. Tom Mulcair and Justin Trudeau have a tendency to stick their feet in their mouths.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I agree it isn't good for Harper in the court of public opinion, but it doesn't mean Duffy is telling the truth...
> 
> All it may mean is that a man with a heart condition is willing to say anything to have his heart meds paid for... after all he was willing to say/file anything to have his travel expenses paid for... seems like a pattern to me in terms of Duffy's apparent lack of ethics or understanding of the rules of the Senate.
> 
> If there is ever a "smoking gun" that *proves* that Harper was complicit in this affair then I will certainly join the band wagon in calling for his resignation or criminal proceedings (if a crime was committed) but until then, it is just a "he said, she said" situation and we need to wait for more *facts* to be come out, not just statements made through a lawyer by a disgraced Senator willing to say anything to save his fat ass.


A valid point, screature. I agree that we all need to wait for the facts to come out before we make a final judgment. Still, the optics of all this are not helpful for PM Harper.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Justin seems more capable of gaffes than mulcair, but Harper may need them to make a pretty serious one to help him out.


----------



## BigDL

The most ironic fact of this whole sorted mess was all started by Harper to fix a problem with base.

It is obvious the PMO and Harper did not ever think this mess would ever grow to the proportions it has.

I wonder, if all Canadians were asked tonight, how might they respond to the question : ...should the Senate be abolished forth with?

I think abolishment might be a the popular response.


----------



## Macfury

My response: an elected senate.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> My response: an elected senate.


True .......... or an abolished Senate, although I think that this would be a true longshot. A triple E Senate would be the next best thing for us all.


----------



## groovetube

I agree dr G, from perspective, depending how things play out, perhaps we'll kill two birds with one stone.

Get rid of this spend like drunken sailors secretive corrupt government and, get a triple E senate.

Win win.


----------



## BigDL

Quick question...with an elected Senate and an elected House of Commons, to avoid gridlock which house's votes have more credibility or precedence?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Quick question...with an elected Senate and an elected House of Commons, to avoid gridlock which house's votes have more credibility or precedence?


Why avoid gridlock? I think it's a healthy state for government. Makes them more cautious.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Quick question...with an elected Senate and an elected House of Commons, to avoid gridlock which house's votes have more credibility or precedence?


I would say that the House of Commons would have the greater say, much like the US Senate. So, we would have the reverse of what exists in the US.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Why avoid gridlock? I think it's a healthy state for government. Makes them more cautious.


A valid point, Macfury. They might be more "cautious" and open to compromise.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Another At Issue Panel - Duffy's rip of Harper and CON leadership*

Wow a second At Issue Panel this week and there's definitely another one Thursday night. Chantal Hebert made it this time but no Andrew Coyne. Coyne was busy illustrating the dismantlement of Canadian democracy at the Travers Debate last night; The debates will be broadcast Friday night at 9pm eastern.

At Issue panel dissects Senator Duffy's bombshell speech - CBC News - Latest Canada, World, Entertainment and Business News


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wow a second At Issue Panel this week and there's definitely another one Thursday night. Chantal Hebert made it this time but no Andrew Coyne. Coyne was busy illustrating the dismantlement of Canadian democracy at the Travers Debate last night; The debates will be broadcast Friday night at 9pm eastern.
> 
> At Issue panel dissects Senator Duffy's bombshell speech - CBC News - Latest Canada, World, Entertainment and Business News


I enjoy and respect the At Issue trio each Thursday, along with Rex Murphy, so yesterday was a pre-Halloween treat. They are insightful and intelligent in their views. Today's session in the Senate with Pamela Wallin might not be as explosive, but one never can tell until the dust settles.

All in all, I am disappointed with PM Harper. The promises of openness and accountability at the onset of his becoming PM has not happened.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> I enjoy and respect the At Issue trio each Thursday, along with Rex Murphy, so yesterday was a pre-Halloween treat. They are insightful and intelligent in their views. Today's session in the Senate with Pamela Wallin might not be as explosive, but one never can tell until the dust settles.
> 
> All in all, I am disappointed with PM Harper. The promises of openness and accountability at the onset of his becoming PM has not happened.


As Mansbridge points out Wallin doesn't like to be out done so I expect her to stand up and further illustrate why this government doesn't deserve the majority they received. Once again it will be some great theatre contrasted with Harper's refusing to answer questions in the House.

Put all the players under oath, release the emails and sit back and enjoy the demise of the Harper government in 2014.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> I would say that the House of Commons would have the greater say, much like the US Senate. So, we would have the reverse of what exists in the US.


Perhaps a person elected to the Senate under a Parliamentary system could be selected by the Caucus and the political party to be the Prime Minister.

I should think electing a senate is not a simple answer to a problem of greed and privilege.


----------



## BigDL

Seems the Harper Government is standing with the pedofiles and sadists.



HuffingtonPost said:


> TORONTO - The Conservative government has acted in bad faith and may be in contempt of court by hiding information related to horrific abuse at an Indian residential school, an opposition MP and a lawyer say.
> 
> The stonewalling, they say, flies squarely in the face of government's legal obligations under a lawsuit settlement that saw Prime Minister Stephen Harper make an historic apology to First Nations for the residential school system.
> 
> "I'm astounded as to why the federal government in 2013 would find it convenient to stand on the side of the pedophiles and sadists who brutalized these children," New Democrat MP Charlie Angus told The Canadian Press.


Charlie Angus: Harper Tories 'On Side Of Pedophiles And Sadists'


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*look out Steve*

Yikes!

http://deadder.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/shining005.gif


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Ah the good old days eh?*

The puffster in action -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAgndOe-XSU]Senator Michael Duffy speaks at Campaign Office Opening - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> ...
> 
> All in all, I am disappointed with PM Harper. The promises of openness and accountability at the onset of his becoming PM has not happened.


As with Obushma, talk can sound very good, but what counts is not what is said or promised but what is done. 

Clearly Harpo's first instinct is to try and lie his way out. To be fair, that is the normal reaction of almost every politician. The big problem here is that he promised better and for some strange reason that particular promise has not slipped peoples minds.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Clearly Harpo's first instinct is to try and lie his way out. To be fair, that is the normal reaction of almost every politician. The big problem here is that he promised better and for some strange reason that particular promise has not slipped peoples minds.


Sadly, while not as big a problem, this is sounding like the Watergate cover up.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Perhaps a person elected to the Senate under a Parliamentary system could be selected by the Caucus and the political party to be the Prime Minister.
> 
> I should think electing a senate is not a simple answer to a problem of greed and privilege.


Maybe we should go the way of a republic and have leaders elected directly by the people and not by a party.


----------



## Macfury

In fact, these senators are being exposed and dealt with by the Conservatives. It would have been easier to keep them on.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> As with Obushma, talk can sound very good, but what counts is not what is said or promised but what is done.
> 
> Clearly Harpo's first instinct is to try and lie his way out. To be fair, that is the normal reaction of almost every politician. The big problem here is that he promised better and for some strange reason that particular promise has not slipped peoples minds.


that's the thing, the Harper government was elected almost primarily because of the accountable open transparency thing, it's what pushed the cons into minority territory in the first election. Of course smearing ralph goodale, no facts or conclusions necessary, which cinched that election.

But we got pretty much the opposite. So harper can't play the accountable honest government card again, certainly not with a straight face. But he'll try...


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> Maybe we should go the way of a republic and have leaders elected directly by the people and not by a party.


Technically, we and our U.S. Cousins are Republics......Canada is classed as a crown Republic. While we often hear that we are a democracy, the reality is we are not....there is a subtle difference between what we call a Democracy and a Republic.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Maybe we should go the way of a republic and have leaders elected directly by the people and not by a party.


I would not so much faith in the Republic system of governance after witnessing the recent on going mess with our southern neighbour. I have little confidence in a republican system of other countries that have the President strong man take over.

We have a very fine system of governance honed over a millennium of practice and precedence. Not stuck in a system of arguing over "what the founders meant."


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> Technically, we and our U.S. Cousins are Republics......Canada is classed as a crown Republic. While we often hear that we are a democracy, the reality is we are not....there is a subtle difference between what we call a Democracy and a Republic.


...better trot out some hard evidence to back that thesis.

I can say that Canada is not technically secular state. 

The Queen is the Head of State in Canada, the Queen is in fact the Leader of the Church of England, therefore the official religion of Canada is the Anglican Church. These statement are technically correct.

Please prove that Canada is a Republic and is not in fact not a constitutional democracy.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I can say that Canada is not technically secular state.
> 
> The Queen is the Head of State in Canada, the Queen is in fact the Leader of the Church of England, therefore the official religion of Canada is the Anglican Church. These statement are technically correct.


Your statement is not technically correct. 

The Church of England is the officially established Christian church... in England, not the Commonwealth. That gives the Queen some power over the Church of England, but does not give her the power to establish The Church of England elsewhere.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Technically, we and our U.S. Cousins are Republics......Canada is classed as a crown Republic. While we often hear that we are a democracy, the reality is we are not....there is a subtle difference between what we call a Democracy and a Republic.


A republic is a country in which there are no monarchs and in which titles are not passed on through inheritance. We are a constitutional monarchy. There's no wiggle room for calling it a republic.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Technically, we and our U.S. Cousins are Republics......Canada is classed as a crown Republic. While we often hear that we are a democracy, the reality is we are not....there is a subtle difference between what we call a Democracy and a Republic.


Quite true. The purpose of both forms of government is to limit or even eliminate the ability of the general population to have a say in their government. Harper, as did Chretien and Trudeau, has practiced a style of "I say therefore it shall be" government. A clear illustration of this is the talking point response. No matter the question it is either ignored or answered with the officially approved one line response.

The problem nowadays is that the internet makes a participatory form of democracy seem quite possible. We are even seeing that beginning to happen in smaller communities. I hope it will work its way up the food chain, but I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. It is far too easy for the super elite to control a handful of handpicked politicians and far too difficult for them to predict what you and I will demand.


----------



## Rps

For the record: A crowned republic is a form of constitutional monarchy where the monarch's role is ceremonial and all the royal prerogatives are prescribed by custom and law in such a way that the monarch has little or no discretion over governmental and constitutional issues.


----------



## Rps

Further to my post: A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.] If you would like a citation on these I will supply when I return. The debate can start now..............


----------



## Rps

Living near the U.S. border, it is interesting to see the two in action. During their governmental elections we see a Republic; but when each state offers a "proposition" item we see a democracy. In Canada, under our system of representation we loose the right to "democracy" when we have a majority government. Oddly enough we choose this democratically.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Technically, we and our U.S. Cousins are Republics......Canada is classed as a crown Republic. While we often hear that we are a democracy, the reality is we are not....there is a subtle difference between what we call a Democracy and a Republic.


We are a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary form of government. The US is a republic with a representative form of government, with a supposed balance of checks between the legislative and executive branches of government, with a Supreme Court to rule in disputes. If PM Harper were to step down now, members of the Conservative Party would choose a new leader, not the people in the country. At least in the US, the VP, who was elected along with the president, would become president.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> For the record: A crowned republic is a form of constitutional monarchy where the monarch's role is ceremonial and all the royal prerogatives are prescribed by custom and law in such a way that the monarch has little or no discretion over governmental and constitutional issues.


But that would be a subset of a constitutional monarchy. To make that claim, Canada would need to meet the finer (but somewhat loose) definition of a crowned republic. I would argue that the presence of a Governor General precludes it.


----------



## Rps

I think the presents of the gg proves mt point.


----------



## Dr.G.

Senator Wallin, along with senators Mike Duffy and Patrick Brazeau, face motions that would suspend them from the Senate, and strip them of pay and benefits because of inappropriately claimed expenses. Listening to their speeches in the Senate, one would think that they are the victims of an awful wrongdoing. Addressing a Senate motion that would suspend her without pay, and cut her office use and benefits, Wallin pointed out that losing health benefits would be very difficult for "a cancer survivor." While this is true, as it would be for Sen. Duffy, it is not as if they would be without any health care protection. They would lose their gold-plated benefits and receive the same health care protection that the rest of us receive.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> They would lose their gold-plated benefits and receive the same health care protection that the rest of us receive.


Although this is a US matter, I believe all government employees, including Congress and Senate, should also subject themselves to the Obamacare they wish to foist on the rest of the population. They have currently exempted themselves.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Although this is a US matter, I believe all government employees, including Congress and Senate, should also subject themselves to the Obamacare they wish to foist on the rest of the population. They have currently exempted themselves.


I agree. No exemptions for anyone and no paid benefits. If I pay, you pay, they all pay out of their own pockets. Equity for all if there is to be protection for all.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I agree. No exemptions for anyone and no paid benefits. If I pay, you pay, they all pay out of their own pockets. Equity for all if there is to be protection for all.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I certainly can get behind that. Long gone are the days of the reform of old who wouldn't even stay at the Stornoway residence.


----------



## i-rui




----------



## groovetube

hooo boy.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


>


Why does the boat say Tories? That term was for the PCs.


----------



## i-rui

...a sinking ship by any other name would smell as sweet...


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> ...a sinking ship by any other name would smell as sweet...


:lmao::clap::lmao: Good one, i-rui. Still, in the final analysis, I wonder how much damage this whole Senate affair will tarnish the PM. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> ...a sinking ship by any other name would smell as sweet...


Why do you say the ship is sinking?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Why do you say the ship is sinking?


Right now, the HMS Accountable With Open Transparency is taking on water.


----------



## eMacMan

Here I thought it was the HMS Hypocrisy.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Here I thought it was the HMS Hypocrisy.


That was their old ship .............. the New Harper government went with a promise of accountability and openness.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Why do you say the ship is sinking?


Well the depiction in the cartoon portrays it as such...

But there can be no doubt that despite the fact that Duffy's "testimony" reveals nothing new that has not been stated before by the PM in terms of his involvement, the media and the Opposition will continue to spin it as if it was a "bombshell" or a "smoking gun" (despite the fact it was clearly and obviously neither) as they both stand to benefit by spinning it as such.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> ...a sinking ship by any other name would smell as sweet...


So sweet that you actually want to see JT as Canada's next PM?

The very thought of it makes me shudder.... 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Well given Harper's lack lustre performance as far as the economy goes, not to mention his addiction to spending which has been out of control, I'd like to see him go.

This government's track record on the economy is a joke.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So sweet that you actually want to see JT as Canada's next PM?
> 
> The very thought of it makes me shudder....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Given the disaster to the south of us, and in the rest of the world, I find it really funny to see the armchair economists coming out of the woodwork to explain how they could have improved on Canada's economic track record! No ideas mind you--just a gut feeling they have.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Well given Harper's lack lustre performance as far as the economy goes, not to mention his addiction to spending which has been out of control, I'd like to see him go.
> 
> This government's track record on the economy is a joke.


Not to mention Harper appointed other senators who do not know where they live.

Why are (Harb) Brazeau Duffy and Wallin singled out for scrutiny, yet Carolyn Stewart-Olsen does not seem to know where she lives. 

The New Brunswick Senator lives full time in Ottawa and has for years. She is so far, Harper's "fair haired girl" who just stepped down from the Board of Internal Economy. 

Was that to avoid scrutiny by the Auditor General's review of that committee?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Was that to avoid scrutiny by the Auditor General's review of that committee?


Why don't you tell us?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Given the disaster to the south of us, and in the rest of the world, I find it really funny to see the armchair economists coming out of the woodwork to explain how they could have improved on Canada's economic track record! No ideas mind you--just a gut feeling they have.


Already explained that. Forget the $Billion$ spy agency building; Keep his original promise as to withdrawing from Afghanistan; keep our asses out of Libya, Syria, Iran and any other MIC/Israeli inspired conflict; can the super elite level hosting of G-8/G20 conferences; undo the corporate tax cuts....


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Not to mention Harper appointed other senators who do not know where they live.
> 
> Why are (Harb) Brazeau Duffy and Wallin singled out for scrutiny, yet Carolyn Stewart-Olsen does not seem to know where she lives.
> 
> The New Brunswick Senator lives full time in Ottawa and has for years. She is so far, Harper's "fair haired girl" who just stepped down from the Board of Internal Economy.
> 
> Was that to avoid scrutiny by the Auditor General's review of that committee?


well they served a purpose in travelling (on the tax payer's dime apparently) and campaigning hard as media stars for the Harper government in 2011, so now, they aren't needed so they're getting thrown under the bus.

I have no doubt Harper knew of the scheme to write Duffy a cheque and try to cover up hi inappropriate expenses and 'go easy' on him, he's a control freak. Of course he knew.

But he's fighting to hold his base, and well let's face it, they're likely not hard to whip up.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Already explained that. Forget the $Billion$ spy agency building; Keep his original promise as to withdrawing from Afghanistan; keep our asses out of Libya, Syria, Iran and any other MIC/Israeli inspired conflict; can the super elite level hosting of G-8/G20 conferences; undo the corporate tax cuts....


I could make a lot of suggestions too--including severe cuts to programs you favour. However, the Canadian economy is not in a mess. It's done quite well, in fact.

If you undid the corporate tax cuts, however, what would bet he net effect on the economy do you suppose? What if you doubled corporate tax rates?


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper now says a ‘few’ people knew about Nigel Wright’s $90,000 cheque to Mike Duffy | National Post

So now the story is starting to change a little. A few people knew about it. And he says he informed the public about it as soon as he found out.

More BS as the public already knew about it, he simply back pedalled into damage control.


----------



## Kosh

Macfury said:


> If you undid the corporate tax cuts, however, what would bet he net effect on the economy do you suppose?


I don't think it would have much effect on the economy, but it would balance the budget. 

My personal pet peeve about the coporate tax cuts was that it was done under the guise that it would attract more businesses to Canada and generate jobs. It hasn't in my books and our corporate tax was already competitive with most countries before the cuts.


----------



## groovetube

Kosh said:


> I don't think it would have much effect on the economy, but it would balance the budget.
> 
> My personal pet peeve about the coporate tax cuts was that it was done under the guise that it would attract more businesses to Canada and generate jobs. It hasn't in my books and our corporate tax was already competitive with most countries before the cuts.


:clap:

Exactly. A very bad move that Canadians will end up paying for one way or another for quite some time. All to allow corporations to hoard unprecedented cash, and we've heard now for quite some time how this is great?


----------



## Macfury

Kosh said:


> I don't think it would have much effect on the economy, but it would balance the budget.


If you returned them to the old rate, you wouldn't balance the budget. You'd have $9 billion, about half the current shortfall, minus whatever negative effect it would have on business efficiency and investment. However, prices would rise to cover that difference, transferring the cost to consumers.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*3rd At Issue Panel for the week - Harper/PMO scandal*

Another great panel with all the regulars. The clip of Mulcair going alpha on Harper is priceless. It was Mulcair's birthday! He must of had his oatmeal.

Senate Scandal Week in Ottawa - The National - CBC Player


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sen. LeBreton named to Senate Internal Economy Committee as drama-filled Senate expenses scandal captivates political Ottawa | hilltimes.com

LeBreton was appointed to the Senate by none other than Brian "I'll take the cash for $300,000" Mulroney and was well known as a Bullroney loyalist prior to her conversion to Harperism. Why should anyone trust her?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sen. LeBreton named to Senate Internal Economy Committee as drama-filled Senate expenses scandal captivates political Ottawa | hilltimes.com
> 
> LeBreton was appointed to the Senate by none other than Brian "I'll take the cash for $300,000" Mulroney and was well known as a Bullroney loyalist prior to her conversion to Harperism. Why should anyone trust her?


Since you are affllicted with Conservative Derangement Syndrome, clearly not you!


----------



## groovetube

Harper could have avoided this bizarre week but did not



> Here’s why this unfolding scenario should be worrying, not just to Canadians, but to Conservative Canadians. It reinforces, not only that the prime minister doesn’t much care whether he’s trusted or liked, so long as he’s respected and feared; and is happy to trample on due process, if it suits him; but also that, truly, no colleague is safe who threatens his position. It’s not a new theme, because of prior incidents, including the purging of onetime cabinet minister Helena Guergis. But the trend line is steepening. Those closest to the Duffy mess, who are still standing – including LeBreton, Sen. David Tkachuk, and Sen. Carolyn Stewart-Olsen – might be well advised to watch their backs.
> 
> In the face of all this, the sheer dreck of it, Canadians are urged to remain placid, because we will soon have free trade with Europe, and the deficit is on track to being eliminated by 2015. Really? This is Canada, now? The gambit, if that is what it is, may succeed. Shame on us if it does.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another great panel with all the regulars. The clip of Mulcair going alpha on Harper is priceless. It was Mulcair's birthday! He must of had his oatmeal.
> 
> Senate Scandal Week in Ottawa - The National - CBC Player


Mulcair should enjoy the limelight while he still has it. Won't be long now before the turf him. So whddaya say Skippy? Is Harper being disloyal by turfing senators who break the rules?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Mulcair should enjoy the limelight while he still has it. Won't be long now before the turf him. So whddaya say Skippy? Is Harper being disloyal by turfing senators who break the rules?


Yeah I think the NDP could get trounced in the next election, but 2 years away, many things can happen. Nothing wrong with Harper turfing the abusers from caucus, but he's made a big error with the current imbroglio. He's also clearly changed his story line several times and the inconsistencies are easy to point to. He's starting to bother Canadians.

Case in point, I was in a whirlpool last night following a workout and met a women who engaged me in a little chit chat and then she started to comment on Harper/PMO/Senate! It's top of mind for a lot of people. 

I find the whole fiasco fun to watch as the CONS carve one another up. My larger concern is yet another democracy destroying omnibus budget bill is just around the corner. This never would have happened in a minority govt. I think people are regretting giving these guys the majority. They may have deserved to form the government but not as a majority for oh so many reasons.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Case in point, I was in a whirlpool last night following a workout and met a women who engaged me in a little chit chat and then she started to comment on Harper/PMO/Senate! It's top of mind for a lot of people.


I think it's an important issue, and that the senate needs a good house cleaning. However, I don't like to see Harper criticized for being disloyal to his friends in the senate AND for sticking up for them too much simultaneously.

On public interest, if you live in Ottawa, you're more likely to strike up a conversation on the senate in the hot tub.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I think it's an important issue, and that the senate needs a good house cleaning. However, I don't like to see Harper criticized for being disloyal to his friends in the senate AND for sticking up for them too much simultaneously.
> 
> On public interest, if you live in Ottawa, you're more likely to strike up a conversation on the senate in the hot tub.


Understood to some degree, but Harper's on record comments of having personally checked Wallin's expenses, etc. look very bad right now.

My hot tub encounter was in my hotel here in Toronto. Quite surprised by that.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Understood to some degree, but Harper's on record comments of having personally checked Wallin's expenses, etc. look very bad right now.
> 
> My hot tub encounter was in my hotel here in Toronto. Quite surprised by that.


There are a lot of details that look as though they may trip him up. He likely cannot have intimate knowledge that appears to vindicate these senators without also having intimate knowledge that damns them. 

Politics can be surprising, however. Somebody may yet come forth to impale themselves upon a sword.


----------



## groovetube

Yes it does look bad, as does his multiple versions of the story now, though ardent supporters maintain that it's been consistent. 

Nonsense.

I highly doubt people are oblivious to all this, recent polls suggest they really aren't at all. It doesn't look good on Harper after the whole song and dance of accountability and transparency when it appears a coverup was attempted.

What else has been covered up? I'm merely saying what could likely be in other people's minds as well.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> There are a lot of details that look as though they may trip him up. He likely cannot have intimate knowledge that appears to vindicate these senators without also having intimate knowledge that damns them.
> 
> Politics can be surprising, however. Somebody may yet come forth to impale themselves upon a sword.


Understood.

Nigel Wright has fallen on his sword so far. Him cutting the 90k cheque and the motives for doing so remain a complete mystery. He hasn't said boo since leaving his position in the PMO. He continues to live in Ottawa too as I have a friend that attends the same church as him and he's there every Sunday - seeking repentence perhaps. 

This week when Harper acknowledged the February meeting with Wright and Duffy, you have to assume that the Duffy file was a priority for the PMO. Harper was likely briefed and updated on a regular basis. I doubt there's any proof of this though. Harper will get through this but the damage has been done. Using Harper's own words relayed by Duffy - it's the perception that matters, and people smell a rotten fish.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> What else has been covered up?


Perchance something here? :lmao:

Trudeau gets a Liberal senator to investigate a Liberal senator



> Does Liberal leader Justin Trudeau really think he will get away with having his Liberal Senate leader investigate the fraud allegations directed at Liberal Senator Colin Kenny?


----------



## FeXL

Or maybe something here?

Duncan shows his contempt for our tax dollars 



> At one point, he actually called the committee a “kangaroo court.”
> 
> That’s right. The guy who once held the purse strings in the province called a committee of the legislature tasked with getting to the bottom of this outrageous misuse of public money a “kanagaroo court.”


How's that feel, Ontario?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Brazeau in happier times*

Senator Patrick Brazeau on the role of the Senate of Canada - YouTube

Braz and Harper must share the same tailor responsible for their ill fitting suits. Take a look at those sleeves at the beginning. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Understood.
> 
> Nigel Wright has fallen on his sword so far. Him cutting the 90k cheque and the motives for doing so remain a complete mystery. He hasn't said boo since leaving his position in the PMO. He continues to live in Ottawa too as I have a friend that attends the same church as him and he's there every Sunday - seeking repentence perhaps.
> 
> This week when Harper acknowledged the February meeting with Wright and Duffy, you have to assume that the Duffy file was a priority for the PMO. Harper was likely briefed and updated on a regular basis. I doubt there's any proof of this though. Harper will get through this but the damage has been done. Using Harper's own words relayed by Duffy - it's the perception that matters, and people smell a rotten fish.


If memory serves on May 17th 2013 Harper found out about that CTV reported Wright wrote the check. That day Wright was commended by Harper. 

Why didn't Harper ask anyone in his office what the heck is going on in this place and who knows what? 

Sunday evening May 19th Wright resigns as Chief of staff. A Sunday. 

How is it from Wednesday to Saturday, four days and maybe even on Sunday Wright had full access to the office, files and records and was free to "clean the place out?" Isn't the Langivin Block, a secure place...with you know...like...security?

For four days Harper is such a poor administrator he would not have the where-with-all to manage asking questions of staff and getting the details that he could report to Parliament and the Canadian People. Is this what any reasonable person is supposed to believe?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> If memory serves on May 17th 2013 Harper found out about that CTV reported Wright wrote the check. That day Wright was commended by Harper.
> 
> Why didn't Harper ask anyone in his office what the heck is going on in this place and who knows what?
> 
> Sunday evening May 19th Wright resigns as Chief of staff. A Sunday.
> 
> How is it from Wednesday to Saturday, four days and maybe even on Sunday Wright had full access to the office, files and records and was free to "clean the place out?" Isn't the Langivin Block, a secure place...with you know...like...security?
> 
> For four days Harper is such a poor administrator he would not have the where-with-all to manage asking questions of staff and getting the details that he could report to Parliament and the Canadian People. Is this what any reasonable person is supposed to believe?


That's right. Additionally from the February meeting to the May day in the PMO we have ~ 3 months of what - no updates on the Duffy file? Hard to believe.

Then Wright makes off with what ever he took and gave it to the RCMP. Isn't it time the RCMP brings forth a little information on where the investigation is going?


----------



## eMacMan

God I really hate to point out the obvious, but Harpo saying: "If this was a business...."

Ahem! If this was a business, a bean counter would be hauling these paragons of ethics onto the carpet and demanding they establish that the claimed expenses were business related *before* they are paid.

But this is the Senate and therefore seems to function on the honour system. Come on now: What idiot decided that politicians might be even remotely capable of doing anything honourable. That's the idiot who should be in jail. 

In the meantime it's really simple, have a bean counter review expense claims and if he/she has questions give them the authority to ask those questions, and the power to deny claims that cannot be justified. If you want to belatedly and retroactively deny claims, that's fine. The perpetrator/victim should have the same period of time to repay the denied claim as elapsed between its submission and its denial.

Sadly I doubt the Senate and Parliament combined can muster enough common sense to come up with such an obvious solution.


----------



## Rps

Grove, I find this Harper deal very curious. When Oda, and a few other notables were "caught" fibbing about duties and expenses he dragged his foot for months and months on dumping them.....but with Duffy and Ol' Pam he has been relatively quick ........ Too close to home maybe?


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Grove, I find this Harper deal very curious. When Oda, and a few other notables were "caught" fibbing about duties and expenses he dragged his foot for months and months on dumping them.....but with Duffy and Ol' Pam he has been relatively quick ........ Too close to home maybe?


yes. There's a lot more than meets the eye here, that much is becoming clearer. The last thing they need is for this to be be dragged out in court so a summery execution makes sense.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Grove, I find this Harper deal very curious. When Oda, and a few other notables were "caught" fibbing about duties and expenses he dragged his foot for months and months on dumping them.....but with Duffy and Ol' Pam he has been relatively quick ........ Too close to home maybe?


One, they were appointed.Two, the PM supports senate reform. These are reasons enough.


----------



## Rps

Macfury I somewhat agree, but there has always been the whiff of Senate members channelling money to the party....maybe all this "action" is more to do with gravy train than Senate reform.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Macfury I somewhat agree, but there has always been the whiff of Senate members channelling money to the party....maybe all this "action" is more to do with gravy train than Senate reform.


It would seem an elaborate and dangerous set-up to funnel only a few hundred thousand dollars to the party.


----------



## Rps

And how many senators are there? Notice that certain Liberal senators are questioning whether the recent hearings and punishments are legal......I wonder why....


----------



## Dr.G.

For me, while I don't think the three senators are innocent of wrong doings, I do feel that they should have their day in court and experience due process as guaranteed under our laws. I would feel better if they were found guilty in this arena than just being booted out of the Senate.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> And how many senators are there? Notice that certain Liberal senators are questioning whether the recent hearings and punishments are legal......I wonder why....


it isn't just some liberal senators, there are a number of tory senators who disagree as well.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> yes. There's a lot more than meets the eye here, that much is becoming clearer. The last thing they need is for this to be be dragged out in court so a summery execution makes sense.


Seems next week's Conservative Convention in Calgary, is looming large, as a reason to get this over and done.

Trying to fool the base is getting tougher and tougher, for Stephen Harper, if all this noise keeps up. He shall have to face that base next week and for Steve it is not looking good.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Seems next week's Conservative Convention in Calgary, is looming large, as a reason to get this over and done.
> 
> Trying to fool the base is getting tougher and tougher, for Stephen Harper, if all this noise keeps up. He shall have to face that base next week and for Steve it is not looking good.


A valid point, BigDL. One has to think that the original roots/beliefs that PM Harper held when he first came into federal politics, and those in the Reform Party that shared these views, are in conflict with some of what is taking place within and outside of the Conservative Party. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> A valid point, BigDL. One has to think that the original roots/beliefs that PM Harper held when he first came into federal politics, and those in the Reform Party that shared these views, are in conflict with some of what is taking place within and outside of the Conservative Party. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


As with Obushma, it is best to look at deeds rather than speeches. Harpos deeds clearly contradict those early speeches, and ultimately it is his deeds by which he should be measured.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> One has to think that the original roots/beliefs that PM Harper held when he first came into federal politics, and those in the Reform Party that shared these views, are in conflict with some of what is taking place within and outside of the Conservative Party.


There may be some disappointment for those with unrealistic expectations--when have we ever seen a transparent government? However the Reform Party faction in particular will not waste their votes on either Liberals or the NDP, who are fundamentally alien to them in their political philosophies. If you're moving forward in a car with a stuttering engine, shifitng into reverse is not the answer.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> There may be some disappointment for those with unrealistic expectations--when have we ever seen a transparent government? However the Reform Party faction in particular will not waste their votes on either Liberals or the NDP, who are fundamentally alien to them in their political philosophies. If you're moving forward in a car with a stuttering engine, shifitng into reverse is not the answer.


I don't think that some of the supporters of the original Reform Party, the United Alternative the Canadian Conservative Reform Alliance, and now the Conservative Party are pleased with the direction PM Harper is taking the party/country. They won't swing to the Liberals or the NDP, but they are seeing their views marginalized based on the early beliefs of the Reform Party (e.g., The Triple-E Senate). I see no movement towards abolishing the Senate or making it "equal, elected, and effective". We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> There may be some disappointment for those with unrealistic expectations--when have we ever seen a transparent government? However the Reform Party faction in particular will not waste their votes on either Liberals or the NDP, who are fundamentally alien to them in their political philosophies. If you're moving forward in a car with a stuttering engine, shifitng into reverse is not the answer.


its common knowledge that this is the most opaque government Canada has ever had so your analogy is flawed.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I don't think that some of the supporters of the original Reform Party, the United Alternative the Canadian Conservative Reform Alliance, and now the Conservative Party are pleased with the direction PM Harper is taking the party/country. They won't swing to the Liberals or the NDP, but they are seeing their views marginalized based on the early beliefs of the Reform Party (e.g., The Triple-E Senate). I see no movement towards abolishing the Senate or making it "equal, elected, and effective". We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


of course they won't vote liberal or ndp. They never did. But Harper is going to have to swing hard right to please that base, and that isn't going to play well outside of that minority.

Tough position.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I see no movement towards abolishing the Senate or making it "equal, elected, and effective". We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


In fact that was already attempted. However, senators such as Duffy double-crossed the PM when it came to a vote.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> In fact that was already attempted. However, senators such as Duffy double-crossed the PM when it came to a vote.


Ah so Harpo throwing Duffy under the bus is vendetta, pure and simple vendetta. Good to have that out in the open.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> its common knowledge that this is the most opaque government Canada has ever had so your analogy is flawed.


I don't know that 'common knowledge' qualifies as anything here.

Projections of personal biases are more true


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Ah so Harpo throwing Duffy under the bus is vendetta, pure and simple vendetta. Good to have that out in the open.


I wish it was a vendetta. However "throwing under the bus" is not apt here. Duffy was already under the bus, and Harper refused to pull his carcass out of there.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I don't know that 'common knowledge' qualifies as anything here.


Let's try to recall old Colon Powell's assertion that Iraq's WMDs and nuclear capabilities were common knowledge, or more accurately "Everyone knows..."


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Let's try to recall old Colon Powell's assertion that Iraq's WMDs and nuclear capabilities were common knowledge, or more accurately "Everyone knows..."


Yeah _they_ said it was common knowledge.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> of course they won't vote liberal or ndp. They never did. But Harper is going to have to swing hard right to please that base, and that isn't going to play well outside of that minority.
> 
> Tough position.


I agree. He needs this solid support from his conservative base to keep any hopes of keeping a majority government. Se shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> I don't think that some of the supporters of the original Reform Party, the United Alternative the Canadian Conservative Reform Alliance, and now the Conservative Party are pleased with the direction PM Harper is taking the party/country. They won't swing to the Liberals or the NDP, but they are seeing their views marginalized based on the early beliefs of the Reform Party (e.g., The Triple-E Senate). I see no movement towards abolishing the Senate or making it "equal, elected, and effective". We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


The above mentioned right of centre voters, don't have to go to the swing, merely sitting on the porch on election day and enjoy the weather is OK. That action shall be sufficient. :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> The above mentioned right of centre voters, don't have to go to the swing, merely sitting on the porch on election day and enjoy the weather is OK. That action shall be sufficient. :clap:


Well, if they sit out the next federal election, that shall not bode well for PM Harper. I voted for him in 2006 since I liked our conservative MP, Norm Doyle, and I wanted to send a protest vote against the Liberals.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The above mentioned right of centre voters, don't have to go to the swing, merely sitting on the porch on election day and enjoy the weather is OK. That action shall be sufficient. :clap:


Absolute guarantee that they will not sit on their porches with a lightweight like Justin Trudeau waiting in the wings. I would have added Mulcair, but that guy has made a sad spectacle of himself, completely squandering the advantage delivered to the party by Jack Layton. As a person with no human magnetism whatsoever,Mulcair's only saving grace _might_ have been policy.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Well, if they sit out the next federal election, that shall not bode well for PM Harper. I voted for him in 2006 since I liked our conservative MP, Norm Doyle, and I wanted to send a protest vote against the Liberals.


No and depending on how angered they are they might. Or, there may be a federal wild rose party...

Will be interesting to see where the swing voters of Ontario go next election, since that's where Harper got pushed into majority territory.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Well, if they sit out the next federal election, that shall not bode well for PM Harper. I voted for him in 2006 since I liked our conservative MP, Norm Doyle, and I wanted to send a protest vote against the Liberals.





groovetube said:


> No and depending on how angered they are they might. Or, there may be a federal wild rose party...
> 
> Will be interesting to see where the swing voters of Ontario go next election, since that's where Harper got pushed into majority territory.


I think it will take awhile for the Base to realize that they are treated like chumps or even worse for donors, feeling like suckers, by a fast talking Stephen Harper.

It took awhile for Televangelists Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart to be found out, by their base, but when the faithful turned on them, if you remember, it wasn't pretty.

When the Base realize the high living Ottawa Conservatives are little different from the high living Ottawa Liberal. The donations will dry up fast and the votes will stay on the veranda.

Indeed Conservatives may form another western populist reform movement.


----------



## SINC

Well, at least Conservatives know that Baker and Swaggart have nothing to do with Canadian politics. Some Libs or NDPers apparently don't.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Well, at least Conservatives know that Baker and Swaggart have nothing to do with Canadian politics. Some Libs or NDPers apparently don't.


I hear those televangelists were really big in New Brunswick.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I think it will take awhile for the Base to realize that they are treated like chumps or even worse for donors, feeling like suckers, by a fast talking Stephen Harper.
> 
> It took awhile for Televangelists Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart to be found out, by their base, but when the faithful turned on them, if you remember, it wasn't pretty.
> 
> When the Base realize the high living Ottawa Conservatives are little different from the high living Ottawa Liberal. The donations will dry up fast and the votes will stay on the veranda.
> 
> Indeed Conservatives may form another western populist reform movement.


pretty good analogy actually if think about it for oh, 5 seconds. Despite the bullying because you dared said something like this. 

Though I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing Harper in a tearful confession to his base crying that he had sinned. The rascally liberals made me do it! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Wildrose Party delegates vote to fight climate change, denounce intolerance | National Post

It's always cute when a far right party becomes more left to try and win an election. Funny that!


----------



## screature

Mike Duffy’s verbal flimflam turned villain into victim in the eyes of the media

Someone who gets it.



> What a spectacle this has been: Two veteran media hacks and professional personalities, skilled manipulators of the public mind, suddenly raised to the status of heroic battlers against an evil prime minister. Overnight, Mike Duffy and Pamela Wallin — admitted expense account padders and alleged prevaricators — are elevated to the biggest prime-time roles of their careers, engulfing the government of Canada in a so-called scandal.
> 
> Why did it come to this? When Mike Duffy delivered his post-partum blast at Stephen Harper this week, the last people you would expect to fall for his extravagant accusations would be the media. Throughout his career Mr. Duffy was mostly seen as a partisan lightweight around the Ottawa Press Gallery. Every now and then he’d score a coup, but his main claim to fame was not his dogged journalism so much as his oleaginous populism and special charms as a speaker and TV personality.
> 
> But suddenly Mr. Duffy, whom few thought credible 24 hours earlier, became the bearer of truth against power, the man who drew a “sordid portrait of the Harper operation” — as Harper hater Lawrence Martin claimed — and demonstrated a “pattern of behaviour” within the Harper entourage wherein “truth has been taken out to the woodshed on more than a few occasions.”
> 
> This, after Mr. Duffy delivered an obviously paranoid fantasy filled with unsubstantiated innuendo and distortions. In a 1,700-word speech scripted and crafted for delivery by a man who is a pro at verbal flimflam, Mr. Duffy dropped his bombshells and context, wallowed in self-deception, portrayed himself as victim of a “monstrous political scheme” — and then left the Senate stage never to be seen since.
> 
> Why did anyone accept a word of it? This is a man who spent the past six months in almost total silence. Over that time, he granted no interviews, released no documents, lied about the source of his $90,000 expense repayment, and limited his public comments to mumbling while being followed down the roads leading in and out of Parliament by TV cameras and reporters. But when he appeared in the Senate chamber to unwind his 1,700-word toxic screed, he was taken seriously. Not just seriously, he was raised to the status of potential dragon slayer of the reigning media dragon, Conservative Prime Minister Harper.
> 
> One would expect the NDP’s pit-bull leader to ride along on Mr. Duffy’s truckload of scatological material, but the media?
> 
> I could run through the list of willfully gullible writers, reporters and TV personalities who took Mr. Duffy’s words at face value and without question. CBC’s The National deserves special mention. “Senator Mike Duffy breaks his silence and draws the prime minister closer to the Senate scandal,” said Peter Mansbridge on Tuesday night. “Five months ago … Mike Duffy said he’d give Canadians his whole story. Today he let loose with it. … It was scathing, jaw dropping, a direct shot at the highest office in the country.”
> 
> Later in the show, The National’s At Issue panel — minus the National Post’s Andrew Coyne — weighed in with pontifical judgments on how the Duffy missive was “extremely damaging” and was “lighting a fuse on the bomb that went off today.” Chantal Hebert pointed out that “When the prime minister calls you in his office and has a meeting at the top,” that’s a big deal. “It’s very hard now for Stephen Harper to say ‘I didn’t know what was happening.’ “
> 
> As we now know — and as was known for some time — nothing was happening. Said meeting between Mr. Duffy, Mr. Harper and Nigel Wright did not take place in the PM’s office, except maybe in Mr. Duffy’s fevered recreation of the facts for his own self-serving purposes. Mr. Duffy had accosted the Prime Minister and Mr. Wright following a Tory caucus meeting, at which time Mr. Harper told Mr. Duffy he had to pay back the $90,000 expenses or face expulsion from caucus.
> 
> Instead of paying the money back with his own money, Mr. Duffy somehow wangled a $90,000 personal cheque out of Mr. Wright. Eventually the story on this cheque will come out, but there is no evidence or reason to believe the prime minister knew about it.
> 
> What the media should have been doing throughout this week is go after Mr. Duffy and ask him for the proof he says he has to support his allegations. Where’s the letter he says he has from Marjory LeBreton, former government leader in the Senate, telling him it’s OK to claim Ottawa living expenses by declaring his primary residence is in Prince Edward Island? It’s a cottage that a Deloitte audit — with which Mr. Duffy refused to co-operate — showed Mr. Duffy stayed in almost exclusively during the months of July, August and September?
> 
> Ms. Wallin’s personal plea before the Senate also seems to be full of holes, many of which were highlighted in recent comments by Senator LeBreton.
> 
> The media and NDP have had a field day with the Duffy/Wallin takeover of a story in which they are the chief villains, not victims. As time goes on, we may get to this truth, with the prime minister emerging in the public mind as the man of principle, the leader who said the right thing to do was pay back inappropriate expenses.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Mike Duffy’s verbal flimflam turned villain into victim in the eyes of the media
> 
> Someone who gets it.





> As time goes on, we may get to this truth, *with the prime minister emerging in the public mind as the man of principle*, the leader who said the right thing to do was pay back inappropriate expenses.


oh come on. This is written by someone who clearly is a fan of Harper regardless.

Stepping away from all the rhetoric from both sides, I will say it'll be interesting how this plays out, but I do hope they government isn't successful in squelching the investigations and resulting revelations, because I do want to know what went down in the end.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *oh come on. This is written by someone who clearly is a fan of Harper regardless.*
> 
> Stepping away from all the rhetoric from both sides, I will say it'll be interesting how this plays out, but I do hope they government isn't successful in squelching the investigations and resulting revelations, because I do want to know what went down in the end.


Written by someone who understands the media and their financial interests in keeping a "scandal" going and why the media would be so willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that Duffy was persona non grata, a cheat and a liar and now suddenly he becomes the "victim" and a knight in shinning armor, shedding the golden light of truth on the affair.

it isn't surprising that those with vested interests in believing that Duffy's fairy tale is the truth (the opposition and the media) and not the testimony of a man/liar willing to say anything to save his ass believe his flimflam story, but for those who don't believe in fairy tales, not so much.


----------



## eMacMan

Anyways this is beginning to take on the feeling of a smokescreen. 

What is in the omnibus budget that King Harpo is hoping will slip by un-noticed?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *its common knowledge that this is the most opaque government Canada has ever had *so your analogy is flawed.





eMacMan said:


> Anyways this is beginning to take on the feeling of a smokescreen.
> 
> *What is in the omnibus budget that King Harpo is hoping will slip by un-noticed?*


I disagree. 

The omnibus Bills of this government have received *far* more scrutiny than any other omnibus bill that came before them.

There has never been a time in history before this that *any* Bill (let alone an omnibus Bill) has received so much public scrutiny thanks to the internet, e-mail and social media.

Just think about it for a second...

Prior to the internet, e-mail and social media, all government dealings were much more opaque just by the very nature of the limitations of the means of the dissemination of "information"...

First spoken word and print only, then spoken word, print and radio, then spoken word, print, radio and television. 

All push communications/"information" from someone else. 

Now, we have the internet, e-mail and social media which are all both push and pull communications and any given individual can do both (push and pull) with these technologies.

Plus, we have *Access to Information* laws which have existed only for a short period of time historically/relatively speaking. Something that didn't exist for the first 125 years or so of Canadian Governments.

Those governments that came before this one had it all too easy to keep a secret, thus why we rarely/never heard about them.

Yet now, it seems like every day we are hearing about some "secret" or another, whether it be within the halls of government, business or the private lives of others.

So... 

So much for the notion/postulation that we exist in the "most opaque" times ever because the evidence and historical facts indicate that this notion/postulation couldn't be further from the truth.


----------



## Ottawaman

> Information Commissioner, Suzanne Legault, has slammed government secrecy and warns that, under the Harper regime, "the health of our Canadian democracy is at risk."
> 
> In her annual report to Parliament, tabled Thursday, Suzanne Legault says federal institutions are taking too long to respond to information requests, and in some cases are not responding at all, which is a violation of the Access to Information Act.
> 
> Legault put responsibility for the problems squarely on Treasury Board President Tony Clement, saying it is he and his department “that should be accountable for the performance of the access to information system.”
> 
> Legault said in her near seven years with the department, she has not seen erosion in the system as great as what has occurred in the last year.
> 
> “The faltering in the system is actually quite dramatic and it’s not getting better,” Legault told reporters at a news conference on Parliament Hill.
> 
> “That is what my concern is, that is what I said to the minister, and I said to the minister that I would hold him accountable publicly.”
> 
> Legault said there are many occasions when federal departments are not following the requirement under the Act to respond to a request within 30 days or indicate whether they plan to seek an extension to deal with the request.
> 
> In other cases, she said, it takes as long as six months to acknowledge a request, or as long as three years.


Problems with access-to-information system put 'Canadian democracy at risk': Legault | CTV News


----------



## groovetube

She must be mistaken.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Have a listen to this interview with Clement re. omnibus budget bill....

Yup open and transparent...my ass (as in donkey).

CBC.ca | Ottawa Morning | Treasury board president Tony Clement


----------



## eMacMan

So here is as good a take on Omnibus Budget Bills as you are likely to find. I am sure the Cons will cry foul that RM quoted the old Harpo but what the h...

Rick's Rant: Omnibus Bill II - YouTube


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Plus, we have *Access to Information* laws which have existed only for a short period of time historically/relatively speaking. Something that didn't exist for the first 125 years or so of Canadian Governments.
> 
> Those governments that came before this one had it all too easy to keep a secret, thus why we rarely/never heard about them.
> 
> Yet now, it seems like every day we are hearing about some "secret" or another, whether it be within the halls of government, business or the private lives of others.
> 
> So...
> 
> So much for the notion/postulation that we exist in the "most opaque" times ever because the evidence and historical facts indicate that this notion/postulation couldn't be further from the truth.


I did a quick search on the number of Access to Information requests that had been completed and they numbered in excess of 23,000 for 2012 and 2013 so far alone.

I wonder if the Conservatives have been receiving an inordinate numbers of these requests as compared to the Liberals. Clearly, each of these requests requires significant labour and effort to pull together, using unbudgeted staff time and resources.


----------



## kps

One thing's for sure, you'll never see another journalist appointed to the senate…ever again.:lmao:

I ran an Access to Information request on myself in February of this year, Just because I can. They never cashed the cheque nor did they reply with any info…wonder why? I think I might try again, but this time I'll follow up.


----------



## Ottawaman

> Canada's information watchdog has been flooded with fresh complaints that the Harper government is too often citing security to withhold documents requested under the Access to Information Act.
> 
> Suzanne Legault says that since April, her office has seen a surge in such complaints -- prompting her to ask for more specially trained investigators.
> 
> "I have observed a worrying trend in the number of new complaints of this type in the past four months," Legault wrote in August to Tony Clement, president of the Treasury Board.
> 
> "So far this fiscal year, we have received 107 new special delegation (security related) complaints, amounting to 80 per cent of the average number of incoming complaints that my office has previously received over the course of an entire year."
> 
> Legault said the problem has been growing over the last five years, but has become acute this year.
> 
> She has asked Clement to increase the number of her investigators who have special security clearance to probe these complaints, to 12 people from the current eight.
> 
> "I believe that this increase is necessary in order for my office to deal with this year's increase," she said in an Aug. 21 letter to Clement, obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.


Information watchdog flooded with complaints against Harper government | CTV News


----------



## Ottawaman

In a report by Reporters Without Borders, a ranking of countries on its media freedom survey dropped Canada 10 positions from the previous survey to No. 20 out of 90.

*Edit *20 out of 179 as Screature has so nicely pointed out

Press Freedom Index 2013 - Reporters Without Borders


----------



## Dr.G.

Just heard Preston Manning on CBC Radio. He spoke of fiscal conservatives, social conservatives, constitutional conservatives and democratic conservatives. I have heard of the first three, but what might be a "democratic conservative"?


----------



## groovetube

conservative in name, but a little more electable?


----------



## eMacMan

Ones that truly believe in democracy, as contrasted to the current crop of Cons?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> conservative in name, but a little more electable?





eMacMan said:


> Ones that truly believe in democracy, as contrasted to the current crop of Cons?


I have a sense that neither definition is fully accurate. Still, merci mes amis.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Peeeeuuuh*

!


----------



## Macfury

Some of these editorial cartoonists are so visually weak. The "secrets" should represent the bad smell, not the deodorant.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Some of these editorial cartoonists are so visually weak. The "secrets" should represent the bad smell, not the deodorant.


I believe the referenced brand is adding to the smell. Note the flies buzzing around Steveie.


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> Problems with access-to-information system put 'Canadian democracy at risk': Legault | CTV News


It does nothing to refute my refutation of the others statements, just so you know.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This is getting stranger and stranger. Maybe Harper is developing premature Alzheimer's?

Chalk up another one for an inconsistent communications mess to Steve-O.

Stephen Harper's evolving Senate talking points: the Monday edition | Press Progress


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> In a report by Reporters Without Borders, a ranking of countries on its media freedom survey dropped Canada 10 positions from the previous survey to No. 20 out of 90
> 
> Press Freedom Index 2013 - Reporters Without Borders


Uh no out of 179. Don't you even read your own links.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This is getting stranger and stranger. Maybe Harper is developing premature Alzheimer's?
> 
> Chalk up another one for an inconsistent communications mess to Steve-O.
> 
> Stephen Harper's evolving Senate talking points: the Monday edition | Press Progress


Right. He uses a word once in an interview that was obviously just a mistake slip/of the tongue and you and the media as per usual think it means something other than it does.

What difference does it make in the end anyway resigned... fired, the dude is long gone.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Right. He uses a word once in an interview that was obviously just a mistake slip/of the tongue and you and the media as per usual think it means something other than it does.
> 
> What difference does it make in the end anyway resigned... fired, the dude is long gone.


Word? How's this for a statement:

“*It is with great regret that I have accepted the resignation of Nigel Wright as my Chief of Staff*."


----------



## groovetube

hardly a slip of the tongue!


----------



## i-rui

wow. denial aint just a river in egypt.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> hardly a slip of the tongue!


Really how do you know? He accepted his resignation, he was dismissed they amount to the same thing in the end. He obviously knows what he has said before, I think he sees it as essentially meaning the same thing as does any reasonable person, Wright is gone.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> hardly a slip of the tongue!


LOL..another slip here too:

"*I accept that Nigel believed he was acting in the public interest, but I understand the decision he has taken to resign.*"


----------



## Ottawaman

screature said:


> Uh no out of 179. Don't you even read your own links.


I read them, perhaps we can do better than Jamaica.


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> I read them, perhaps we can do better than Jamaica.


Then why did you misstate the number?


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> I read them, perhaps we can do better than Jamaica.


Perhaps we do, it is just this "organization" that says we don't. They certainly don't necessarily have it right. BTW the organizations founding journalists are from France. They came in 36th.


----------



## Ottawaman

Do you also disagree with Suzanne Legault's opinion?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Really how do you know? He accepted his resignation, he was dismissed they amount to the same thing in the end. He obviously knows what he has said before, I think he sees it as essentially meaning the same thing as does any reasonable person, Wright is gone.


Yep Political Spin 101
Resignation=Boot up the butt.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*The constantly shifting story*

Things left unsaid: government's answers on Senate scandal still a moving target - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Perhaps we do, it is just this "organization" that says we don't. They certainly don't necessarily have it right. BTW the organizations founding journalists are from France. They came in 36th.


I don't see an easy way to compare countries. If citizens of one country are too intimidated to make FOI requests, and ask for 10 of them, and all of them are granted, does that make it better than a country that received 100,000 such requests, many of them simply nuisance requests, and delivers on 98,000 of them?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Cry me a river*

FLASHBACK STORIFY: Tories lamented Wright 'resignation' last May - Inside Politics

It gets better and better!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> FLASHBACK STORIFY: Tories lamented Wright 'resignation' last May - Inside Politics
> 
> It gets better and better!


Seriously--this is supposed to be news? People publicly calling a firing a resignation?


----------



## i-rui

the news is the way this government is attempting to rewrite history to try and spin their position as having some sort of integrity.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Seriously--this is supposed to be news? People publicly calling a firing a resignation?


One resigns realizing that it's time to go. The honourable fall on my sword thing.

One is fired with cause or without cause. 

It begs the question as to whether or not a severance has been paid out. How much?
$90k?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the news is the way this government is attempting to rewrite history to try and spin their position as having some sort of integrity.


Comparing the official story to a bunch of tweets? Seriously?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Comparing the official story to a bunch of tweets? Seriously?


Tweets from CON MPs no less.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Tweets from CON MPs no less.


Because all MPs speak for the PMO? Because they all know what went on between the PM and Wright? Because none of them are simply putting a positive spin on the firing of a colleague, and calling it a resignation?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Because all MPs speak for the PMO? Because they all know what went on between the PM and Wright? Because none of them are simply putting a positive spin on the firing of a colleague, and calling it a resignation?


Those tweets followed the PM's (not the PMO's) own statement using the words resign and resignation.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Comparing the official story to a bunch of tweets? Seriously?


not tweets, Harper's own words. It's all well documented.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hard to dismiss...

Stephen Harper says Nigel Wright ‘dismissed,’ rather than resigned | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

I've known people who have been fired and it was publicly stated that they had resigned. It's a professional courtesy, but obviously in this case it's one that Harper can no longer afford to extend. I'm sure Mr. Wright will understand.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I'm sure Mr. Wright will understand.


I'm not sure. But time will tell.

Anyway, the Senate is about to start and Duffy has made an appearance. Robert Fife is reporting that Duffy is going to lay another stinker. I hope it's a smelly one.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the news is the way this government is attempting to rewrite history to try and spin their position as having some sort of integrity.


Yeah right... one word in a radio interview that's attempting to rewrite history. Get a grip.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Anyway, the Senate is about to start and Duffy has made an appearance. Robert Fife is reporting that Duffy is going to lay another stinker. I hope it's a smelly one.


I have no doubt that Mr. Duffy will stink up the Senate chambers... but probably with his own rich aroma!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> One resigns realizing that it's time to go. The honourable fall on my sword thing.
> 
> One is fired with cause or without cause.
> 
> *It begs the question as to whether or not a severance has been paid out. How much?
> $90k?*


Yay, you can read tweets good for you. :clap:


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I've known people who have been fired and it was publicly stated that they had resigned. It's a professional courtesy, but obviously in this case it's one that Harper can no longer afford to extend. I'm sure Mr. Wright will understand.


I don't know if that is even the case. We have yet to hear anything from Harper on his use of the word.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Yay, you can read tweets good for you. :clap:


Words are my own. Thanks.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Words are my own. Thanks.


I highly doubt it the tweet was beside the column right from the get go.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> I highly doubt it the tweet was beside the column right from the get go.


Words are my own thanks.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Yeah right... one word in a radio interview that's attempting to rewrite history. Get a grip.


first, it wasn't "one word", it's a full phrase.

second, that isn't the only instance of Harper's accounts of the events changing as things make way into public light.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Words are my own thanks.


My doubts stand... see how things like that work.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> My doubts stand... see how things like that work.


Please send me the tweet. A screen shot will do. As I stated these are my own thoughts and words.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> first, it wasn't "one word", it's a full phrase.
> 
> second, that isn't the only instance of Harper's accounts of the events changing as things make way into public light.


resigned to dismissed, one word, in a radio interview, let's see if he tries to officially back up that is what he meant or not first shall we?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Please send me the tweet. A screen shot will do. As I stated these are my own thoughts and words.


 Glen McGregor @glen_mcgregor

So now the obvious question: If Nigel Wrigt was fired and did not resign, per PMSH, was he paid severance and how much?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Glen McGregor @glen_mcgregor
> 
> So now the obvious question: If Nigel Wrigt was fired and did not resign, per PMSH, was he paid severance and how much?


Thanks. As stated thoughts and words are my own. Obviously, the reporter had similar thoughts. Good on him.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> resigned to dismissed, one word, in a radio interview, let's see if he tries to officially back up that is what he meant or not first shall we?


so you're suggesting that when Harper said 

"I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy — he was dismissed"

he meant to say 

"I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy — he was resigned"

?

lol

and way to overlook Wright acting alone with no one else knowing about it to now a "few" people knew about it. 

of course that tidbit of information only saw the light of day from the PM's lips after other sources confirmed what was in the RCMP report. months and months after the fact...


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> so you're suggesting that when Harper said
> 
> "I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy — he was dismissed"
> 
> he meant to say
> 
> "I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy — he was resigned"
> 
> ?
> 
> lol
> 
> and way to overlook Wright acting alone with no one else knowing about it to now a "few" people knew about it.
> 
> of course that tidbit of information only saw the light of day from the PM's lips after other sources confirmed what was in the RCMP report. months and months after the fact...


There's no excusing this lol. It's quite clear the story is changing as we go, which is a sure sign there's more hiding under this story.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Puffster releasing emails, memos, and cheque stubs.

So long Harper!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!*

Booom!

Mike Duffy says Conservatives paid 'to make this go away' - Politics - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

following it as I work. This is getting interesting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*The Globe and Mail weighs in*

!!!!

Conservatives gave Duffy more money than just $90,000 cheque, senator claims - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

Duffy is hilarious. I guess when you've got no CTV gig to go back to, a generous non-working pension is hard to give up.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Duffy is hilarious. I guess when you've got no CTV gig to go back to, a generous non-working pension is hard to give up.


Poor, poor, Duffy.


----------



## groovetube

quick, let's get the discredit Duffy machine into high gear! Stat!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Note the use of personal non-govt emails to deal with this stuff.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's the letter from Arthur Hamilton the CONS lawyer:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Complete Duffy docs for this round (apparently he's still holding on to others)!
Mike Duffy documents.pdf


----------



## i-rui

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Note the use of personal non-govt emails to deal with this stuff.


lol that Duffy uses AOL.


----------



## eMacMan

I suspect that the omnibus budget will contain Canada's capitulation in the form of a FATCA IGA with the US government. They will no doubt claim it is not really a treaty. While Canada's version is still secret, the five plus hundred pages of all other FATCA IGAs kick off by essentially voiding existing treaties with the US government. This in every sense of the word would make this a treaty not merely an agreement. Treaties should always be debated on a stand (or hopefully fall) alone basis.

There is a deliberate misconception that this applies only to US citizens living abroad. The US calls a number of individuals: US persons for tax purposes. This can include people born in Canada to one person with US citizenship; Canadians who have married Americans; Former green card holders, even those whose green card privileges have expired; Americans who became Canadian citizens in the Vietnam era, believing in doing so they were giving up their American citizenship; Canadians who spend too long in the US. 

That last one is quite tricky for snowbirds. There is a belief that as long as you stay less than 183 days in any year you are safe. However the calculation is more complex. For 2013 it would be the number of days spent stateside in 2013, plus 1/3rd the days in 2012, plus 1/6th the days in 2011. For long time snowbirds this means a max of 120 days a year, otherwise you are treated to the same F(u)BAR, 2938 forms and penalties as all other Americans. IOW Uncle Sam wants YOU or more specifically he wants your life savings. 

The Harpolites need to tell Obama to FATCA himself. Course this would mean growing a pair and telling the US that they cannot rewrite Canada's banking and privacy laws for their own convenience.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Poor, poor, Duffy.


Not as poor as poor, poor Hank.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Here's the letter from Arthur Hamilton the CONS lawyer:


oh now that's no big deal surely. It's only 13k, so that automatically means it's much ado about nothing. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

Remember folks, when the roof fell in on both Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker, there were those who remained faithful and who would not accept the glaring truth staring them in the face. 

Harper's devotees have and will continue to drink the Flavour Aid. "No one is so blind, as those, who will not see."


----------



## SINC

Yes, those US evangelists are so relevant to Canadian politics. Did they vote conservative last election? Likely not.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Remember folks, when the roof fell in on both Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker, there were those who remained faithful and who would not accept the glaring truth staring them in the face.
> 
> Harper's devotees have and will continue to drink the Flavour Aid. "No one is so blind, as those, who will not see."


I suspect somehow though that they do see, just not saying much. I bet it angers them as much as it does others. 

Just as it happened with the liberals, all we can do is give each party the boot when they've been in power for long enough for them to think they can get away with this crap. Then it's the other sides turn.

Though we'll have to listen to how the other would never do what the other rascals did. Rinse, and repeat.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *so you're suggesting that when Harper said
> 
> "I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy — he was dismissed"
> 
> he meant to say
> 
> "I had a chief of staff who made an inappropriate payment to Mr. Duffy — he was resigned"
> 
> ?
> 
> lol*
> 
> and way to overlook Wright acting alone with no one else knowing about it to now a "few" people knew about it.
> 
> of course that tidbit of information only saw the light of day from the PM's lips after other sources confirmed what was in the RCMP report. months and months after the fact...


See that is the kind of nonsense that you and the opposition are engaging in. Either he resigned or he was dismissed. One word. Perhaps Harper asked for his resignation and got it and thus why most recently he said he was dismissed. I don't know but it really doesn't matter, either way he is gone and accepted responsibility. In the end that is all that really matters.

Nigel Wright made a sworn statement to the RCMP months after what he told Harper. Obviously Harper had to adjust what he said in the past based on the testimony that Wright gave to the RCMP. It seems completely reasonable that Wright would be willing to lie to his boss but not so likely to lie to the RCMP. 

Why exactly is that so surprising?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Why exactly is that so surprising?


I also don't see what's so "explosive" about Duffy's "evidence" other than to prove what a louse he is.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I also don't see what's so "explosive" about Duffy's "evidence" other than to prove what a louse he is.


Quite frankly I don't believe his testimony as it makes no sense when one considers that if everything Duffy claims is true, why in heavens name would those who are purportedly involved call for him to be suspended when they knew they would be giving him the opportunity to "spill the beans".

It makes no sense at all. If they simply let him keep on collecting his pay cheque he wouldn't have been provided the opportunity. I call shenanigans on Duffy! As if that even needs to be said.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> See that is the kind of nonsense that you and the opposition are engaging in. Either he resigned or he was dismissed. One word. Perhaps Harper asked for his resignation and got it and thus why most recently he said he was dismissed. I don't know but it really doesn't matter, either way he is gone and accepted responsibility. In the end that is all that really matters.
> 
> Nigel Wright made a sworn statement to the RCMP months after what he told Harper. Obviously Harper had to adjust what he said in the past based on the testimony that Wright gave to the RCMP. It seems completely reasonable that Wright would be willing to lie to his boss but not so likely to lie to the RCMP.
> 
> Why exactly is that so surprising?


You may be excusing the discrepancies in the story. That's your story, but I don't buy it. Nor do many other people apparently.

I find it fishy that more than one detail is shifting as we go. Now there isn't much more I can add, except to watch as more details (like todays revelation of paying for Duffy's fees...) come out and provide more context.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Quite frankly I don't believe his testimony as it makes no sense when one considers that if everything Duffy claims is true, why in heavens name would those who are purportedly involved call for him to be suspended when they knew they would be giving him the opportunity to "spill the beans".
> 
> It makes no sense at all. If they simply let him keep on collecting his pay cheque he wouldn't have been provided the opportunity. I call shenanigans on Duffy! As if that even needs to be said.


Absolutely. If everything he says is true, then Duffy ought to be removed from his senate seat anyway for going along with it.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Quite frankly I don't believe his testimony as it makes no sense when one considers that if everything Duffy claims is true, why in heavens name would those who are purportedly involved call for him to be suspended when they knew they would be giving him the opportunity to "spill the beans".
> 
> It makes no sense at all. If they simply let him keep on collecting his pay cheque he wouldn't have been provided the opportunity. I call shenanigans on Duffy! As if that even needs to be said.


It's my belief (and it seems everywhere else I have read) that Harper was more afraid of the RCMP criminal investigation than the what he had hoped would be a quicker process to suspend and shut down any further exposures.

I'm sure you disagree, however I had thought this to be rather obvious.

My opinion is let the RCMP have at the whole thing.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Poor, poor, Duffy.


Yes because he is a liar, a cheat and a co-conspirator all for his own personal financial gain if his testimony is to be believed.

He was simply an innocent victim of his own "largess". 

Poor, poor Duffy. 

My heart bleeds for him. :-(


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *It's my belief (and it seems everywhere else I have read) that Harper was more afraid of the RCMP criminal investigation than the what he had hoped would be a quicker process to suspend and shut down any further exposures.*
> 
> I'm sure you disagree, however I had thought this to be rather obvious.
> 
> My opinion is let the RCMP have at the whole thing.


See that is nonsense, the RCMP investigation would continue regardless, they are not beholden to politicians, but then again you probably believe that they are...

Duffy was just provided the quickest route possible with the Senate suspension motion to "have his say", so your argument makes no sense in the real world.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *You may be excusing the discrepancies in the story*. That's your story, but I don't buy it. Nor do many other people apparently.
> 
> I find it fishy that more than one detail is shifting as we go. Now there isn't much more I can add, except to watch as more details (like todays revelation of paying for Duffy's fees...) come out and provide more context.


Hardly, I am pointing them out.

Of course people are buying it because they want to (because they stand to benefit by it or by convincing others to buy it they benefit from it), it doesn't make them right. Did I really even need to state the obvious?

Remember Duffy is saying everything he is under Parliamentary privilege. He can't be charged or go to jail for making false testimony in the Senate. He has cart blanche to lie until his face turns blue... which according to his sob story about his doctor's orders it may soon be...


----------



## SINC

Once again, gt is right. He who knows all, continues to tell us that at every opportunity. No one can evaluate Canadian politics like him. And thank God for that.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Yes because he is a liar, a cheat and a co-conspirator all for his own personal financial gain if his testimony is to be believed.
> 
> He was simply an innocent victim of his own "largess".
> 
> Poor, poor Duffy.
> 
> My heart bleeds for him. :-(


Not a fan of Duffy and he will pay for his sins, and yes his statements in the Senate are made in a privileged place, but his story line is consistent compared to the shifts Harper has been taking with his story. 

Sorry but your hero looks very bad as does the CON leadership. 

No doubt there's still more to come.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Hardly, I am pointing them out.
> 
> Of course people are buying it because they want to (because they stand to benefit by it or by convincing others to buy it they benefit from it), it doesn't make them right. Did I really even need to state the obvious?
> 
> Remember Duffy is saying everything he is under Parliamentary privilege. He can't be charged or go to jail for making false testimony in the Senate. He has cart blanche to lie until his face turns blue... which according to his sob story about his doctor's orders it may soon be...


who has what to gain? Sure, the opposition parties are salivating at the prospect of scandal. I grant you that.

I'm fascinated at how suddenly the media is some sort of political machinery that has something to gain now. They were pretty credible when they dogged the liberals during the sponsorship scandal and other itms, but suddenly they;re biased now that it's the cons.

You have to admit, it doesn't look great on the PMO's office, especially now that it's clear Duffy's legal expenses were covered, and Harper is busy pushing to get Duffy wrapped up, and sent right out the door without any more fuss. Strange... 

When the liberals were in power, everyone lumped Chretein in, and somehow it's all (PM and PMO) separate now? :roll eyes:

I'm not fan of Duffy by a mile. I say, let it all come out. Let the RCMP dig all the way through and get to the bottom of this. If it exonerates the PM/PMO, so be it. Somehow, I don't think so.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> See that is the kind of nonsense that you and the opposition are engaging in. Either he resigned or he was dismissed. One word. Perhaps Harper asked for his resignation and got it and thus why most recently he said he was dismissed. I don't know but it really doesn't matter, either way he is gone and accepted responsibility. In the end that is all that really matters.


the simple fact that you're reducing the difference between Wright resigning or being fired to "one word" shows just how little you understand of the situation or how it was handled.

it echoes what some conservative defenders were saying when this scandal first broke. 

"what does it matter if Wright gave Duffy the $90,000? all that matters is he paid back the money! in the end thats all that really matters"

some conservative apologists even said it was much ado abut nothing when the story broke. after all, personal gifts aren't illegal!

lol



screature said:


> Nigel Wright made a sworn statement to the RCMP months after what he told Harper. Obviously Harper had to adjust what he said in the past based on the testimony that Wright gave to the RCMP. It seems completely reasonable that Wright would be willing to lie to his boss but not so likely to lie to the RCMP.
> 
> Why exactly is that so surprising?


it's surprising because if Wright wasn't the only one who knew about the deal why didn't the other staff members who knew about it inform the PM immediately after he made those very public statements? Does the PM's staff think it's ok if he misinforms the entire nation? does his staff enjoy the PM appearing incompetent? are there other scandals that the PM doesn't know about that his staff are keeping him in the dark about?

the idea that Harper isn't a liar, just that his very own office likes to keep him in the dark about illegal back room deals is somehow supposed to be of comfort to Canadians. it's sad.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> the simple fact that you're reducing the difference between wright resigning or being fired to "one word" shows just how little you understand of the situation or how it was handled.
> 
> It echoes what some conservative defenders were saying when this scandal first broke.
> 
> "what does it matter if wright gave duffy the $90,000? All that matters is he paid back the money! In the end thats all that really matters"
> 
> some conservative apologists even said it was much ado abut nothing when the story broke. After all, personal gifts aren't illegal!
> 
> Lol
> 
> 
> 
> it's surprising because if wright wasn't the only one who knew about the deal why didn't the other staff members who knew about it inform the pm immediately after he made those very public statements? Does the pm's staff think it's ok if he misinforms the entire nation? Does his staff enjoy the pm appearing incompetent? Are there other scandals that the pm doesn't know about that his staff are keeping him in the dark about?
> 
> *the idea that harper isn't a liar, just that his very own office likes to keep him in the dark about illegal back room deals is somehow supposed to be of comfort to canadians. It's sad.*


+1


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> +1


Watch him win another term. No competition from either the beard or the pot head from Quebec.


----------



## groovetube

too early to tell, but anything is possible at this point.


----------



## Ottawaman

SINC said:


> Watch him win another term. No competition from either the beard or the pot head from Quebec.


So, you're anti beard as well?


----------



## groovetube

Beards are scary!


----------



## Ottawaman

I hope Sync can tell us which is the greater evil - being from Quebec or being a "pot" head.


----------



## groovetube

that might be a tough one.

There's also the Trudeau part.

Holy crap.


----------



## SINC

Ottawaman said:


> I hope Sync can tell us which is the greater evil - being from Quebec or being a "pot" head.


Sync? Really? Oh my. Can't get a darn thing right.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *the simple fact that you're reducing the difference between Wright resigning or being fired to "one word" shows just how little you understand of the situation or how it was handled.*


I dare say I understand the intricacies of the situation and how it was handled every bit as much as you do (and more) i-rui, we just don't see eye to eye to on the matter regardless of and despite your belittling and arrogant comment. 



i-rui said:


> it's surprising because if Wright wasn't the only one who knew about the deal *why didn't the other staff members who knew about it inform the PM immediately after he made those very public statements?* Does the PM's staff think it's ok if he misinforms the entire nation? does his staff enjoy the PM appearing incompetent? *are there other scandals that the PM doesn't know about that his staff are keeping him in the dark about?*


Duh, because it wasn't their place to... clearly you have never worked in a chain of command environment, once you have then please report back. 

Perhaps, perhaps not, but again you clearly, very clearly, have never worked in such an environment and until you have and can display that you have I hold your opinions on such matters with limited regard.



i-rui;1483993[B said:


> *the idea that Harper isn't a liar, just that his very own office likes to keep him in the dark about illegal back room deals *is somehow supposed to be of comfort to Canadians. it's sad.


Illegal has yet to be proven, no charges have been laid but you and your ilk continue to presume guilty until proven innocent because that is what you want to believe because it suits your own very obvious agenda.

What is sad is that people like you believe only what the all too vested interests of the media feeds them without one ounce of critical thought.

*That* is sad.


----------



## Ottawaman

SINC said:


> Sync? Really? Oh my. Can't get a darn thing right.


Stop hiding behind a typo, answer the question, if you can.


----------



## Ottawaman

Let's try an easier question. Was Nigel fired or did he resign?


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> Let's try an easier question. Was Nigel fired or did he resign?


We will know in due course. 

But tell me again why it matters?

Either he resigned of his of own free will, or he was told, "I expect your resignation in the morning". Why does it really matter?

Other than for those who want to make political hay out of such hair splitting... like the media and the opposition.

The fact is the dude is gone.

I would have thought that is what you wanted. Apparently that isn't good enough...

Why am I not surprised that it isn't good enough? Oh, I know because the guy you are really gunning for is the PM... patience now, you will have your chance in 2015. 

It doesn't matter that you are willing to gun down every hard working CPC MP in the process despite the fact that they had nothing to do with this one way or the other... just shoot 'em all down.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I dare say I understand the intricacies of the situation and how it was handled every bit as much as you do (and more) i-rui, we just don't see eye to eye to on the matter regardless of and despite your belittling and arrogant comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Duh, because it wasn't their place to... clearly you have never worked in a chain of command environment, once you have then please report back.
> 
> Perhaps, perhaps not, but again you clearly, very clearly, have never worked in such an environment and until you have and can display that you have I hold your opinions on such matters with limited regard.
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal has yet to be proven, no charges have been laid but you and your ilk continue to presume guilty until proven innocent because that is what you want to believe because it suits your own very obvious agenda.
> 
> What is sad is that people like you believe only what the all too vested interests of the media feeds them without one ounce of critical thought.
> 
> *That* is sad.


Well I think I do have a decent understanding of how things work, and in my opinion, if someone in an organization really did do something underhanded as this writing of a 90k cheque without anyone knowing is being portrayed as, they would be 'fired'. Perhaps if they are a favourite or good friends with someone at the top, then they would be allowed to resign. But the story would have been straight from the get go, and NOT changed at a later date as Harper seems to have, that's for sure. And that... <<< is important yes!

The difference -is- important, because it shows the story is changing, coupled with some of the other details like how many in PMO knew about it.

And I think i-rui brought up an excellent point. How is it, that that many people knew in the PMO, and no one NO ONE told the PM about it?

In the very least, the PM knew, but 'didn't wanna know'. That much, I'd believe.


----------



## Ottawaman

It matters because it speaks to the credibility of the PM.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> It matters because it speaks to the credibility of the PM.


exactly.


----------



## screature

Ottawaman said:


> It matters because it speaks to the credibility of the PM.


Why exactly? Either Wright resigned freely or was asked to resign. He resigned, by "suggestion" or voluntarily he resigned either way he is gone.

The difference only matters to those with a bone to pick with/against the government that much is very clear.


----------



## groovetube

screature. I don't think it's only, people who 'have a bone to pick with the government'. That's rather simplistic. Sure, -I- may have a bone to pick with this government, granted, but I bet there are a lot of people who voted conservative last election, who are looking at this wondering what the real story is.

When situations like this that look kinda smelly, it isn't the time for the PM to be sliding the story a little sideways here. It simply doesn't look good. No, it isn't definitive evidence the PM is lying, but it sure doesn't help matters.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Why exactly? Either Wright resigned freely or was asked to resign. He resigned, by "suggestion" or voluntarily he resigned either way he is gone.
> 
> The difference only matters to those with a bone to pick with/against the government that much is very clear.


I suspect it only confirms what they already believe. Few people but partisans are going to be clapping heir hands with delight because something like this went down--resignation versus firing. Duffy is the problem here, not Harper. Watching EhMacers hopping into bed with Duffy all of a sudden is hilarious.


----------



## groovetube

Vast majority want senators suspended immediately without pay: poll | CTV News

I can't say I'm surprised at the poll by any means. But I was a little surprised the the least support for suspending the senators, was in Alberta!


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> Vast majority want senators suspended immediately without pay: poll | CTV News
> 
> I can't say I'm surprised at the poll by any means. But I was a little surprised the the least support for suspending the senators, was in Alberta!


Nothing like guilty until proven innocent. Fact is, if Mike Duffy was guilty of misspending, then why was he bailed out by the PMO's office at all? Mr. Harper seems to have a reputation for buying his way out of problems, only this time he got caught. Stay tuned.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> screature. I don't think it's only, people who 'have a bone to pick with the government'. That's rather simplistic. Sure, -I- may have a bone to pick with this government, granted, but I bet there are a lot of people who voted conservative last election, who are looking at this wondering what the real story is.
> 
> When situations like this that look kinda smelly, it isn't the time for the PM to be sliding the story a little sideways here. It simply doesn't look good. No, it isn't definitive evidence the PM is lying, but it sure doesn't help matters.


And the guy campaigned on transparency and accountability.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> And the guy campaigned on transparency and accountability.


This is where I am most disappointed with PM Harper.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Chantal Hébert*

Disappointed there was no at issue last night but Chantal, let's be clear, clearly gets it -

Mike Duffy will be a wet blanket on Tories’ national convention: Hébert | Toronto Star

With his latest bombshells Mike Duffy has killed the last Conservative hope that the government’s mess in the Senate can be mopped up anytime soon, let alone in time for the weekend’s national party convention.
His assertions give rise to a new and even more damaging set of questions than those already asked and never fully answered by the prime minister.
Here are some of them:
Not only did the PMO hand Duffy money to reimburse his housing allowance, he also received $13,560 to cover the legal costs associated with his defence. He has a copy of the cancelled cheque — signed by Conservative party lawyer Arthur Hamilton — to back up his claim.

*Question: If Harper believed Duffy to be guilty of a gross breach of the senate rules — of the kind that the prime minister argues warrants his suspension without pay from the institution — why would his top political operator be willing to spare no expense to reimburse all the expenses related to the offence on his behalf ?*
And if, as the cheque suggests, at least part of the money came from the Conservative party, was the PMO using funds given by the party donors to fool the same party donors into thinking that the government was running a tight ship when it was not ?
Harper has always maintained that until the story of Nigel Wright’s role in the reimbursement became public, he had taken Duffy at his word when he said he had taken a personal loan to pay back his housing allowance.
But Duffy claims that the line about the loan was cooked up by PMO spin doctors. If, as the senator further asserts, he has a paper trail to document that allegation — and he has yet to produce it — he will, in effect, have Harper cornered.
*For taking the prime minister at his word, if he was gullible enough to buy a false story from his own palace guard, what does that say about his management of his own office?*
And if PMO staff assumed that it was acceptable to encourage a senator to lie, what does that say about the ethical rules that the prime minister enforces within his own ranks ?
Even before Duffy filled in a few more blanks in what increasingly amounts to an extraordinary tale of deception there were signs of incipient panic in the Conservative war room.
Just a week ago the notion that Harper’s majority in the Senate could fail to deliver the decisive sentence that he had ordered his troops to execute against Duffy, Pamela Wallin and Patrick Brazeau was considered unthinkable.
But if the Conservative leadership in the Senate had had its ducks lined up behind the suspension motion, it would not have muddied the waters — as House leader Claude Carignan has been doing — by floating offers of more lenient penalties.
And if public opinion were squarely behind the prime minister, Harper would not suddenly be spending time on talk radio, where he has been having trouble keeping his story straight.
In an interview on Monday, Harper claimed that he had fired Wright. Until now he had maintained that his chief of staff had resigned.
It may be a matter of nuances but given how concise Harper’s accounting of his role in the senate scandal has been, one can only wonder how he can trip over so few lines.
On the same day the rift in Conservative ranks expanded, with former environment minister Peter Kent urging senators to resist the call to suspend their colleagues.
Finance Minister Jim Flaherty evaded questions about the pros and cons of the suspension, coming out squarely instead in favor of the abolition of the Senate.
*Up until now the end game of the frantic manoeuvring of the past two weeks had been to clear the air on the Senate front in time for this week’s Conservative convention. But a self-congratulatory weekend is just not on anymore. Given how quickly things are unravelling on Parliament Hill, that may yet turn out to be the least of Harper’s concerns.*


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

By the way, before someone dismisses Chantal because she's from Quebec, she is not. She was born, raised and educated in Ontario.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> By the way, before someone dismisses Chantal because she's from Quebec, she is not. She was born, raised and educated in Ontario.


I agree with your initial contention that she was correct in her overview of this whole matter.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Nothing like guilty until proven innocent. Fact is, if Mike Duffy was guilty of misspending, then why was he bailed out by the PMO's office at all? Mr. Harper seems to have a reputation for buying his way out of problems, only this time he got caught. Stay tuned.


That's it in a nutshell. Duffy obviously had his hand in the cookie jar as did others, no one is defending that guy. But the issue here is Harper and crew not only bailing him out paying his expenses and his legal bills, but trying to sweep it under the rug.



fjnmusic said:


> And the guy campaigned on transparency and accountability.


That's what brought them to power. But spending hundreds of millions in taxpayers money in self promotion, endless questionable spending over the their term ( 50 million in gazebos is the laughable one...) clearly, they don't live up to their own expectations. Remember when they howled about the nearly 30 million in party subsidies based on vote numbers? Only to squander more than that on 1812 celebrations right after.

If you're going to convince people to vote for you because you promise not to do any of these things, and make government more accountable, then this kind of crap is unacceptable.


----------



## Macfury

Every new government runs on "accountability." Expressing some sort of outrage that 100% of federal governments so far have failed to be fully accountable to someone should be proof that governments are inherently untrustworthy.

My guess is that Stephen Harper will successfully focus this negative energy from Duffy and from those who would never vote for him in the first place into a campaign for Senate reform.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r62RG_pZ3Ic]PM Harper ATV Joyride "I Make The Rules!" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> PM Harper ATV Joyride "I Make The Rules!" - YouTube


:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Just out of curiosity, what exactly did Nigel Wright stand to gain by putting his career and credibility on the line like that with only 90k handed to Duffy?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Just out of curiosity, what exactly did Nigel Wright stand to gain by putting his career and credibility on the line like that with only 90k handed to Duffy?


Since so much of the Con creed revolves around self centered greed, many of us fail to clue in to the possibility that some Cons are capable of personal loyalty and even self-sacrifice. In Wrights case he probably thought he was too far up the pecking order to be sacrificed, so his personal loyalty to the PM/organization betrayed him. I doubt that he believed he would be buss-ted.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Since so much of the Con creed revolves around self centered greed, many of us fail to clue in to the possibility that some Cons are capable of personal loyalty and even self-sacrifice. In Wrights case he probably thought he was too far up the pecking order to be sacrificed, so his personal loyalty to the PM/organization betrayed him. I doubt that he believed he would be buss-ted.


Also, in the scheme of things, it's pretty small potatoes. A very tiny sword on which to be forced to throw one's self.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Just out of curiosity, what exactly did Nigel Wright stand to gain by putting his career and credibility on the line like that with only 90k handed to Duffy?


That's the million dollar question for me. That payment is completely out of character for him. He has a very strong reputation of being an ethical guy. Power can do strange things to people though.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> That's the million dollar question for me. That payment is completely out of character for him. He has a very strong reputation of being an ethical guy. Power can do strange things to people though.


through this whole affair, I haven't seen anyone asking this. To me, this is the fundamental problem with this idea that Harper didn't know.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*The Whopper*

.


----------



## groovetube

oh noes, the beard!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> oh noes, the beard!


Yessum. From *K*-bec.


----------



## groovetube

Doh! Well at least his name isn't Trudeau.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


Mulcair looks like a few members of ehMac in my imagination... 

Filled with false presumptuous laughter, self importance, arrogance, ignorance, condemnation and just a smidge of lunacy...

I think I will dress up as "Mad Tom" for Halloween this year, just because he is really "scary" and a little bit crazy... just like all good Halloween costumes should be in nature.


----------



## groovetube

I donno. I kinda prefer Mulcair's open laughter to this: (which looks rather creepy)

If you see someone's open laughter as arrogant, and self important, you need more smiles in your life! (here's one  )


----------



## groovetube

So apparently it was the conservative party funds that paid for Duffy's legal expenses.

Harper wants Duffy kicked out for his misdeeds, but paid his legal expenses?


I'm sure we'll hear all about how this is normal. riiiiiiiiiight.


----------



## FeXL

The irony of the attention lavished upon a hundred grand, no matter who did it, as opposed to the billions of dollars worth of malfeasance stateside, all the while producing wholesale silence from the usual suspects, is not lost.

Imagine the outcry if there were something real to pursue in Canuckistan politics...


----------



## groovetube

Dan Arnold: Tory database fiasco may do more damage than Duffy disaster | National Post

Wow. 7 million up in smoke from all those who donated money to the conservative party.


----------



## FeXL

A $20 donation pissed away by the Conservatives is still a better investment than the same donation to the Liberals or NDP.


----------



## BigDL

*Conservative's Entitled to their Entitlements*

This pretty much sums up the Conservative's Entitled to their Entitlements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yresaKOlr7g


----------



## groovetube

'the action plan don't work for us, we don't even know what it does' :lmao:

Well probably 600 million later that's pretty sad.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I donno. I kinda prefer Mulcair's open laughter to this: (which looks rather creepy)
> 
> *If you see someone's open laughter as arrogant, and self important, you need more smiles in your life!* (here's one  )


Open laughter??!! 

Really??

It was as I said it was.

Despite your arrogance, facetiousness, condescension and lame attempt at insulting me I have plenty of smiles and laughter in my life thank you very much and they don't come from some smart ass comment from someone I have never met on an internet forum.

They are generated by my family and friends of which you are neither. 

So keep your arrogant, facetious and condescending emoticons to yourself. I don't need them or want them.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Open laughter??!!
> 
> Really??
> 
> It was as I said it was.
> 
> Despite your arrogance, facetiousness and condescension I have plenty of smiles and laughter in my life thank you very much and they don't come from some smart ass comment from someone I have never met on an internet forum.
> 
> They are generated by my family and friends of which you are neither.
> 
> So keep your arrogant, facetious and condescending emoticons to yourself. I don't need them or want them.


Holy cow screature, calm down. Mulcair looks like he's having a big guffaw of a knee slapping laugh. I'd like to see more of that.

And I was just pulling your leg about smiles. I'm sure you have some, I have no idea.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> 'the action plan don't work for us, we don't even know what it does' :lmao:
> 
> Well probably 600 million later that's pretty sad.


I'll see your 600 million and raise ya a billion and a half, pissed away on a gun registry that was estimated to have cost $527 million.

We can go all night and all day groove.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I think I will dress up as "Mad Tom" for Halloween this year, just because he is really "scary" and a little bit crazy... just like all good Halloween costumes should be in nature.


We'll see if he's still laughing after the next NDP leadership review. I've never seen anyone **** away political capital faster than Mulcair. His stint as head of the party is an insult to the hard work Jack Layton did in dragging his party out of the doldrums.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*At Issue Panel - Coverup/Deception - Liar or He's playing Dumb*

Ms. Hebért's stunning statement at the outset is fun for the whole family to enjoy:

http://main.mp4.cbc.ca/prodVideo/news/256/167/atissue-102913.mp4


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*And wait, that's not all - Insider Panel*

Yee Haw - gettin' ready for Calgary -

http://main.mp4.cbc.ca/prodVideo/news/256/169/insiders-102913.mp4


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*And the rats start coming out out the woodwork!*

Robocalls accused Michael Sona agrees to terminate publication ban

Sona (He does have an axe to grind) also insinuates that Jenni Byrne is the information source for Bob Fife back in May -


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Oh Nigel....where are you?*

.


----------



## Macfury

Again, people have such a poor visual sense these days. Why is Mulcair of all people seen to be biting anyone?


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


:lmao::lmao:

I'm guessing we won't see Harper with such a head back laugh right now


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yee Haw - gettin' ready for Calgary -
> 
> http://main.mp4.cbc.ca/prodVideo/news/256/169/insiders-102913.mp4


yes. After you've thrown enough people under the bus and destroyed them publicly to save your own skin, eventually bad things start to happen, I like the line where he said Harper might wake up one day, and have a really bad day.

I think most Canadians, even though they want to see the senators punished etc., can see past this futile lame attempt to try and portray the opposition as someone who sees these senators as mere victims. Clearly, that's an attempt to try and change the channel from what is clearly a very glaring problem for the conservatives.

They tried to cover up, protect, pay for, and cover legal expenses for this very bad man who ripped off Canadians.

Pretty tough to wriggle out of that one.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> yes. After you've thrown enough people under the bus and destroyed them publicly to save your own skin, eventually bad things start to happen, I like the line where he said Harper might wake up one day, and have a really bad day.
> 
> I think most Canadians, even though they want to see the senators punished etc., can see past this futile lame attempt to try and portray the opposition as someone who sees these senators as mere victims. Clearly, that's an attempt to try and change the channel from what is clearly a very glaring problem for the conservatives.
> 
> They tried to cover up, protect, pay for, and cover legal expenses for this very bad man who ripped off Canadians.
> 
> Pretty tough to wriggle out of that one.


The best line about how Mr. Harper's treatment of Nigel Wright's reputation being thrown under the bus was to the effect " Yesterday, Mr. Wright, became a speed bump at a busy bus terminal."


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> ...
> I think most Canadians, even though they want to see the senators punished etc., can see past this futile lame attempt to try and portray the opposition as someone who sees these senators as mere victims. Clearly, that's an attempt to try and change the channel from what is clearly a very glaring problem for the conservatives.
> 
> They tried to cover up, protect, pay for, and cover legal expenses for this very bad man who ripped off Canadians.
> 
> Pretty tough to wriggle out of that one.


To be fair I am sure that any politician worth his mound of 5#!7, would have done exactly as the PM did. Harpos big problem is that he preached so eloquently against this sort of thing when he was still a wannabee PM.

What it boils down to is that a politician is a politician. Whether the stripes be black on white, or white on black the aroma never changes.


----------



## Stink

eMacMan said:


> To be fair I am sure that any politician worth his mound of 5#!7, would have done exactly as the PM did. Harpos big problem is that he preached so eloquently against this sort of thing when he was still a wannabee PM.
> 
> What it boils down to is that a politician is a politician. Whether the stripes be black on white, or white on black the aroma never changes.


I smell dung.


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

"like little girls at a justin beiber mall appearance"


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## FeXL

When Governments Cite Greenpeace



> In recent years, electricity prices here in Ontario have risen dramatically. This is largely the result of our government pursuing renewable energy policies without doing some basic math first. As a 2011 report by Ontario’s auditor general observed:
> 
> _electricity prices for the average consumer have increased 65% since the restructuring of the electricity sector in 1999, and prices are expected to rise another 46% in the next five years._​
> In the same report, the Auditor General tells us our coal-fired electricity plants were told to shut down as quickly as possible – before anyone bothered to ask if this made economic sense (more info here).


However,



> Four days ago, Chiarelli defended one of his government’s recent decisions by telling us it has the support of Greenpeace. Here’s what he said on Twitter:
> 
> _Ontario does not need new nuclear at this time agrees the Pembina Institute and Greenpeace_​


Well in that case...


----------



## i-rui

watching question period right now. Harper still can't give a straight answer, not even to the basic question of if Wright was fired or resigned.


----------



## BigDL

Mulcair's warning to the speaker that he should be careful not to be speared by the Prime Minister's growing proboscis. That sure got the Conservative's shorts in a knot. Mr. Speaker, however, did not see a violation of Parliamentary Rules and Procedures.

I though it was good advice and a suitable warning for Mr. Speaker. 

Who knows perhaps a bus might be warmed up, with Mr. Speaker name as the bus' route identifier.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Mulcair's warning to the speaker that he should be careful not to speared by the Prime Minister's growing proboscis sure got the Conservative's shorts in a knot. Mr. Speaker did not see a violation.
> 
> I though it was good advice and a suitable warning for Mr. Speaker.
> 
> Who knows perhaps a bus might be warmed up, with Mr. Speaker name as the bus' route identifier b


I saw that! I LOLed when I read that :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> When Governments Cite Greenpeace


They not only closed the coal plants, they blew up the stacks so they couldn't even be re-opened in an emergency.


----------



## Stink

Ludwig's last movement [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOdpX6dcrU4]Fart Sounds - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## i-rui




----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


>


Yep Tricky Dick paid a very heavy price for extracting the US from Vietnam. He was telling the truth when he said he was not a crook. Unfortunately for his believers, it turned out that he was a dick.

The good thing is most of us who were around back then learned to keep a large bag of salt on hand, for all those impossible to believe statements which require more than just a grain or two of salt.


----------



## groovetube

Vote to suspend senators likely pushed to next week | CTV News

Doesn't look like Harper will get his wish and have this resolved before going into the con convention. I'm guessing there's probably a lot of dealing and calls happening to try and make something happen before the weekend.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> vote to suspend senators likely pushed to next week | ctv news
> 
> doesn't look like harper will get his wish and have this resolved before going into the con convention. I'm guessing there's probably a lot of dealing and calls happening to try and make something happen before the weekend.


👍👍👍👍👍👍👌👌👌👌👌👌


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> 👍👍👍👍👍👍👌👌👌👌👌👌


Honestly, he should wear this around his neck at the convention!


----------



## groovetube

and meanwhile, while this is all playing out, back at the ranch (probably quite literally  ) Trudeau is a busy here...

Trudeau tells Calgary business crowd Ottawa has mishandled energy file | CTV News


----------



## BigDL

Stink said:


> I smell dung.


After Harper's answers in today's Question Period I think that smell was the stink of desperation. I certainly am pleased we do not have 3DSMELLOVISION™. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Meanwhile, in the real world of voter support:

Senate scandal hasn't hampered Tory support: poll



> “I don’t know that you could interpret what is going on with the number as any impact,” Ipsos Reid pollster Darrell Bricker said. “Basically what you’re seeing is fluctuation within the margin of error.”
> 
> -----
> Mr. Bricker said the scandal appears to be having little effect these days on the government. *“It’s a wonderful story for the Ottawa press gallery … but the truth is the impact on the Canadian electorate, essentially what’s happening is it’s reinforcing impressions that people already have of Harper.*”
> 
> “It hasn’t raised or elevated either [opposition] party, the Liberals or the NDP, to such a place of prominence where they can actually be in a position to defeat the government and form a majority.”
> 
> --------
> 
> Mr. Bricker said he hasn’t seen much movement in federal Conservative Party support in recent months.
> 
> “This is something we’ve been tracking for some time and we haven’t seen an appreciable movement in the government’s numbers for quite a while. If you look outside of election periods, Stephen Harper typically scores between 30 and 35 [per cent],” the pollster said.
> 
> He said the NDP’s persistent strength in the polls makes the party a factor to watch. “The only thing we’ve seen that I think is of particular interest in all of this is the NDP strength hanging in there. The fact the NDP has got a new floor that is at least 25 [per cent] makes them definitely a spoiler in whatever goes on in the future.”
> 
> *Mr. Bricker notes that Mr. Harper’s personal approval rating is 40 per cent – a number that’s slipped just one percentage point since July.
> 
> “At 40 per cent – that’s enough,” the pollster says. “Typically governments that have approval levels of 40 [per cent] – and they’re incumbent governments – typically win” re-election.*


----------



## groovetube

One point separates Liberals, Tories and NDP: poll | CTV News

Quite a bit tamer in numbers than the other poll recently released, but certainly shows a slow downward trend for the tories. For those waiting for a catastrophic fall in numbers for the tories, remember how long it took for the liberals to finally get dragged down after the sponsorship scandal. It took an election which returned them to a minority before finally snuffing them out, which I suspect is what will happen in 2015, a minority for the conservatives.

Judging how things have been going for the conservatives in the last while, the next 2 years should be a little uncomfortable for Harper as I bet more crap will be found out as we go. They better hope Flaherty is correct that he'll balance the budget by 2015 without pissing off too many people in the process...


----------



## groovetube

Soldier with PTSD denounces being discharged before he qualified for pension | CTV News

Remember all that "support our troops" hoopla at one time that was so popular with the conservatives?

Thems were good times eh?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*A smörgåsbord of good articles*

including one from the Sun's Robson which takes a shocking position for him. Coyne's piece is the best tough. 

House of the whopper: PM has spun such a web of deceit he should resign or be dismissed | Columnists | Opinion | Edmonton Sun

It may be in Nigel Wright’s power to destroy Stephen Harper: Hébert | Toronto Star

I wonder when Nigel will make his move.....

Andrew Coyne: To recap, the prime minister is not responsible for almost anything | National Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Don't really want to be citing polls with an election 2 years' away but this one does illustrate the impact of Harper's lies -

If Harper lied, vast majority of Canadians want him gone: EKOS poll | iPolitics


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Don't really want to be citing polls with an election 2 years' away but this one does illustrate the impact of Harper's lies -
> 
> If Harper lied, vast majority of Canadians want him gone: EKOS poll | iPolitics


but ipsos said no one caed... 

Andrew Coyne: To recap, the prime minister is not responsible for almost anything | National Post

So, just what is this huff and stuff about openness, transparency, and accountability.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hitler on Harper -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7fQAvkeQmE#t=80]Hitler Reacts to Duffy's Revelations - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hitler on Harper -
> 
> Hitler Reacts to Duffy's Revelations - YouTube


Interesting, and somewhat true in parts. Canadians did not get into that much of an uproar over the missing $3 billion as they did over Bev Oda's costly OJ.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> but ipsos said no one caed...
> 
> Andrew Coyne: To recap, the prime minister is not responsible for almost anything | National Post
> 
> So, just what is this huff and stuff about openness, transparency, and accountability.


Well, gt, if PM Harper is not responsible for anything, then why worry about "openness, transparency, and accountability"? There is no need for this sort of inconvenience. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting, and somewhat true in parts. Canadians did not get into that much of an uproar over the missing $3 billion as they did over Bev Oda's costly OJ.


oh yes, the 3 billion dollars. Great money mangers them.

Let's not forget how the tories have learned from the liberals adscam of 300 million, and turned it into an art form with actionscam approaching over 600 million.


----------



## BigDL

Q: What is the scariest Halloween Costume this year? Zombies Nope!

A: Stephen Harper in a bus driver's uniform!


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Q: What is the scariest Halloween Costume this year? Zombies Nope!
> 
> A: Stephen Harper in a bus driver's uniform!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hitler on Harper -
> 
> Hitler Reacts to Duffy's Revelations - YouTube


Given that you can create your own Hitler video online, that one is written pretty weakly. The point where he says Calgary and indicates Berlin on the map is particularly poor. What have Hitler videos come to?!!!


----------



## Stink

BigDL said:


> Q: What is the scariest Halloween Costume this year? Zombies Nope!
> 
> A: Stephen Harper in a bus driver's uniform!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGX9CrkqUm4]Suspended for farting on the bus - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## FeXL

2013-10-30 - Editorial Cartoon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Steve and Ford*

The man chooses his friends carefully!

[ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e8_1369290022]LiveLeak.com - Harper and Ford are fishing buddies[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More proof of a majority govt. out of touch:


----------



## i-rui

lesson for all politicians :

the cover up is always worse than what you're covering up.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


look out beloooowwwwwwwww! :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> lesson for all politicians :
> 
> the cover up is always worse than what you're covering up.


FTFY...

lesson for all ehMacians :

the cover up is always worse than what you're covering up.


----------



## Stink

FeXL said:


> FTFY...
> 
> lesson for all ehMacians :
> 
> the cover up is always worse than what you're covering up.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKI6T_gQTDM]High Suction Poop Flush - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## heavyall

I see a lot of people using the word scandal, but I've yet to see anyone show me a single thing that even remotely qualifies as one with regards to the PM. He caught one of his own Senators padding his expenses, and he >gasp< made him pay it all back.


----------



## groovetube

Tory base questions Harper's credibility | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

And this from the toronto sun!

60% of Canadians are watching this, either somewhat or very closely according to a poll, and the numbers that don't believe Harper's story should be pretty troubling for Harper. Getting caught trying to cover this all up and have the senate go easy on one of their favourites, doesn't look good for these oh so accountable god fearing men.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Stellar CBC piece on the PMO scandal - must watch*

!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x6TJUouozo]Two Key Dates - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper on Harper*

How to make poor choices -

Rob Ford joins Mike Duffy as Stephen Harper ‘distractions’: Tim Harper | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

Man. Didn't think that one through did he. Anyone knows ford is always 30 days away from another major gaffe, that guy can't stay out if it.

I don't know that we've heard the last of Nigel Wright. If Harper keeps knocking him, he may lose that bet as well and that won't be pretty.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I see a lot of people using the word scandal, but I've yet to see anyone show me a single thing that even remotely qualifies as one with regards to the PM. He caught one of his own Senators padding his expenses, and he >gasp< made him pay it all back.


Are you kidding heavyall? Did Nigel Wright resign entirely of his own accord or was it suggested that he resign? This is the most important question Canada needs to answer before it can move on to dealing with budgets and the economy.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Are you kidding heavyall? Did Nigel Wright resign entirely of his own accord or was it suggested that he resign? This is the most important question Canada needs to answer before it can move on to dealing with budgets and the economy.


I agree, Macfury. This answer will either help or really damage the PM Harper brand he has been trying to create for the past decade. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> I agree, Macfury. This answer will either help or really damage the PM Harper brand he has been trying to create for the past decade. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Just one of the many obfuscations, if not lies, concocted by a PM who will not take responsibility for his actions nor the actions of the PMO. 

It's fun to watch the shifting story. And what's even better is to do a little compare and contrast from statements and video clips.

Loyalists will continue to believe there is nothing wrong here...but then there's the waffle...the difference between minority and majority for the time being.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Just one of the many obfuscations, if not lies, concocted by a PM who will not take responsibility for his actions nor the actions of the PMO.
> 
> It's fun to watch the shifting story. And what's even better is to do a little compare and contrast from statements and video clips.
> 
> Loyalists will continue to believe there is nothing wrong here...but then there's the waffle...the difference between minority and majority for the time being.


The federal government in Canada is too powerful by design. I never expect that any government trusted to do far too much for a people who do far too little for themselves will emerge unscathed. In my opinion there was no brand to begin with. My main concern--who will spend less than the other parties?


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Just one of the many obfuscations, if not lies, concocted by a PM who will not take responsibility for his actions nor the actions of the PMO.
> 
> It's fun to watch the shifting story. And what's even better is to do a little compare and contrast from statements and video clips.
> 
> Loyalists will continue to believe there is nothing wrong here...but then there's the waffle...the difference between minority and majority for the time being.


The PMO Scandal, the Rob Ford Scandal and Harper's close association with Ford, are confirmation that again Stephen Harper displays bad judgement.

The play to win at at all cost style of Stephen Harper shall understand Minority Government as a loss.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Are you kidding heavyall? Did Nigel Wright resign entirely of his own accord or was it suggested that he resign? This is the most important question Canada needs to answer before it can move on to dealing with budgets and the economy.


How is that even remotely important in any way? Because angry Tom says so? He can discipline his staff however he chooses. In political parlance, resigning when you're about to be fired is how it works. It's a distinction without a difference.

Seriously, if this is the worst that they opposition can tar Harper with, then that's just a testament to how incredibly good his leadership has been.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> How is that even remotely important in any way? Because angry Tom says so? He can discipline his staff however he chooses. In political parlance, resigning when you're about to be fired is how it works. It's a distinction without a difference.
> 
> Seriously, if this is the worst that they opposition can tar Harper with, then that's just a testament to how incredibly good his leadership has been.


It isn't important. I was just demonstrating how unimportant it is.


----------



## Stink

oh [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7ngHcdxau0]Bucket Of **** - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> How is that even remotely important in any way? Because angry Tom says so? He can discipline his staff however he chooses. In political parlance, resigning when you're about to be fired is how it works. It's a distinction without a difference.
> 
> Seriously, if this is the worst that they opposition can tar Harper with, then that's just a testament to how incredibly good his leadership has been.


If we must waste time on Duffy the real problem would be more along the lines: If Mike Duffy is almost never on PEI, why on earth would King Harpo appoint him as Senator for PEI?

The vague Senate rules and lack of enforcement may have embarrassed Duffy and eventually he should have repaid that living allowance, but the real question is why was a non-islander appointed in the first place?

The rest of it springs from what is second nature to all politicians: When faced with evidence that your judgment was seriously flawed, lie through both mouths and make it ten times worse.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> If we must waste time on Duffy the real problem would be more along the lines: If Mike Duffy is almost never on PEI, why on earth would King Harpo appoint him as Senator for PEI?
> 
> The vague Senate rules and lack of enforcement may have embarrassed Duffy and eventually he should have repaid that living allowance, but the real question is why was a non-islander appointed in the first place?
> 
> The rest of it springs from what is second nature to all politicians: When faced with evidence that your judgment was seriously flawed, lie through both mouths and make it ten times worse.


The conservatives are desperately trying to turn this around now as someone else's fault. It's what they do. The whole mess and resulting distraction, was a result of the conservatives actions, namely, the PM, and the PMO. This is a mess of their own making, and it's no one else's fault that we're dealing with the fallout. End of story.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> It isn't important. I was just demonstrating how unimportant it is.



DOH! You got me!


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> If we must waste time on Duffy the real problem would be more along the lines: If Mike Duffy is almost never on PEI, why on earth would King Harpo appoint him as Senator for PEI?
> 
> The vague Senate rules and lack of enforcement may have embarrassed Duffy and eventually he should have repaid that living allowance, but the real question is why was a non-islander appointed in the first place?
> 
> The rest of it springs from what is second nature to all politicians: When faced with evidence that your judgment was seriously flawed, lie through both mouths and make it ten times worse.


...further to these thoughts of the impropriety of Stephen Harper appointment, why was Carolyn Stewart Olsen a resident of the National Capital Region appointed as a Senator for New Brunswick? Stewart Olsen has a cottage in New Brunswick much like Duffy has his cottage on PE Island.

True that she was on the Board of Internal economy investigating and white washing senate reports. Maybe that's the reason Mr. Harper lets her remain in the caucus in good standing?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The federal government in Canada is too powerful by design. I never expect that any government trusted to do far too much for a people who do far too little for themselves will emerge unscathed. In my opinion there was no brand to begin with. My main concern--who will spend less than the other parties?


For me, it is a question of where this money is being spent. A school lunch program is far more worthy of tax dollars than a gazebo or artificial lake.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I agree, Macfury. This answer will either help or really damage the *PM Harper brand he has been trying to create for the past decade*. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I guess it seems like that to you Dr.G but it has been only 7 years that he has been PM.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> For me, it is a question of where this money is being spent. A school lunch program is far more worthy of tax dollars than a gazebo or artificial lake.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


From your posts over the years, it would strike me that you don't care about the overall level of spending if the money is being spent on lunches.

I care about the overall level first, then what the money is being spent on second.,


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> For me, it is a question of where this money is being spent. *A school lunch program is far more worthy of tax dollars* than a gazebo or artificial lake.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Perhaps, but they would be provincial tax dollars not federal tax dollars Dr. G.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> From your posts over the years, it would strike me that you don't care about the overall level of spending if the money is being spent on lunches.
> 
> I care about the overall level first, then what the money is being spent on second.,


I admit that I value money being spent to help people in need, genuine need. So, yes, spend money on programs like school lunches, homeless shelters, adult literacy programs, pre-natal health/nutrition programs, help for disabled vets, help for seniors in need, etc, etc, etc. Those are my priorities. I would love to see balanced budgets, but how we balance the budget concerns me, in that it is usually these sorts of programs that get their funding cut first ................ leaving "room" for waste to go unreported and unchecked. I am actually a fiscal conservative and hate waste.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Perhaps, but they would be provincial tax dollars not federal tax dollars Dr. G.


True, but waste is waste, be it with municipal, provincial or federal tax dollars.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

First time I've ever read MacD dump on Harper. There is hope. 

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=9114109


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> True, but waste is waste, be it with municipal, provincial or federal tax dollars.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


:clap:

...and to your point there is only one taxpayer.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> :clap:
> 
> ...and to your point there is only one taxpayer.


ah yes. The ol someone else will pay for it trick. Rob Ford is using to convince everyone that subways are actually free :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> :clap:
> 
> ...and to your point there is only one taxpayer.


No. Many people on either end of the scale pay no taxes or are net recipients of government largesse. They no longer care whether tax money is wasted.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> No. Many people on either end of the scale pay no taxes or are net recipients of government largesse. They no longer care whether tax money is wasted.


Interesting point, Macfury. If I was on social assistance and paid no taxes, I would worry that this "rage against waste" would be directed towards me and that certain programs might be cut (e.g., while not in Canada, the Food Stamps program has been cut by $5 billion). If I was on the other end of the spectrum and paid little or no taxes for my wealth, I would be concerned that those taxpayers on an income and without my tax breaks would be outraged that I did not pay my fair share and they too would "rage against the waste" of giving me a tax break (e.g., since some of our doxies have names like Gus, Jack and Rudy, names that could be the names of real people, I get a big deduction for them as if they were children ............ the doxies named Clover, Fluffy, Mopsy, Flopsy and Oscar Meyer do not get these deductions).

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting point, Macfury. If I was on social assistance and paid no taxes, I would worry that this "rage against waste" would be directed towards me and that certain programs might be cut (e.g., while not in Canada, the Food Stamps program has been cut by $5 billion). If I was on the other end of the spectrum and paid little or no taxes for my wealth, I would be concerned that those taxpayers on an income and without my tax breaks would be outraged that I did not pay my fair share and they too would "rage against the waste" of giving me a tax break (e.g., since some of our doxies have names like Gus, Jack and Rudy, names that could be the names of real people, I get a big deduction for them as if they were children ............ the doxies named Clover, Fluffy, Mopsy, Flopsy and Oscar Meyer do not get these deductions).
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


meanwhile the voters in the middle (where I am) are wondering which party can actually balance things better while maintaining and effective social program set. This government so far, has only really made the problem far worse on the upper side of the scale.


----------



## BigDL

In Canada we should be concerned about the escaping taxpayer with the Corporate tax rate. An artificial life form living that should, benefit society, not just provide returns for shareholders.

Also our natural resources are not returning the value they should. Resources are being given away to private interests for a song in return for the job, job, jobs mantra as payment, not the hard currency and jobs our resources should garner.

The job, jobs, jobs payment, for this current Conservative Government, then tried to export resource extraction jobs, by encouraging the importing of labour from emerging economies at third world wages.


----------



## Macfury

That post is not remotely connected to reality, BigDL. The resources are being extracted at market rates and at great expense to the extractors. If you want to get them out of the ground yourself, make an offer. Or double the price of oil in an an oil-glutted market and see how far that gets you.

Resource extraction jobs likewise are well-paying positions available to all Canadians. If someone wants to remain unemployed in an economic dead zone, that's their concern, but travel a few thousand miles and you'll find gainful employment at attractive wages.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> In Canada we should be concerned about the escaping taxpayer with the Corporate tax rate. An artificial life form living that should, benefit society, not just provide returns for shareholders.
> 
> Also our natural resources are not returning the value they should. Resources are being given away to private interests for a song in return for the job, job, jobs mantra as payment, not the hard currency and jobs our resources should garner.
> 
> The job, jobs, jobs payment, for this current Conservative Government, then tried to export resource extraction jobs, by encouraging the importing of labour from emerging economies at third world wages.


Not only that, they're being supported with plenty of tax payers dollars as well. Just upswell the whole trickle down thing and voters will eat that right up. Fear works sow well obviously!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Not only that, they're being supported with plenty of tax payers dollars as well.


So where's the hue & cry regarding the highly disproportionate subsidies paid to renewable energy?

PS Your avatar needs some serious sharpening...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> So where's the hue & cry regarding the highly disproportionate subsidies paid to renewable energy?
> 
> PS Your avatar needs some serious sharpening...


It ain't his avatar that needs sharpening.


----------



## whatiwant

SINC said:


> It ain't his avatar that needs sharpening.


Wow. On topic. How mature of you.


----------



## SINC

jawknee said:


> Wow. On topic. How mature of you.


Ah, truth hurts.


----------



## whatiwant

SINC said:


> Ah, truth hurts.


That doesn't even make sense. Try again.


----------



## SINC

jawknee said:


> That doesn't even make sense. Try again.


That doesn't even make sense. Try again.


----------



## whatiwant

SINC said:


> That doesn't even make sense. Try again.


Grow up.


----------



## SINC

I've been grown up long enough, and had enough life experiences to spot a phoney. One day you might get it too.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A hole. Ignore.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The Gerstein convention comment should force Nigel Wright to come out. The RCMP now has very conflicting stories to deal with. 

This is going to be another great week coming up.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A hole. Ignore.


Just doesn't know when to stop. Always trying isn't he. Just don't care anymore.

Anyway, back on topic...

Stinging letter by former aide to Pamela Wallin helped trigger expenses audit | CTV News

Ouch. Payback's a bitch.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Just doesn't know when to stop. Always trying isn't he. Just don't care anymore.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic...
> 
> Stinging letter by former aide to Pamela Wallin helped trigger expenses audit | CTV News
> 
> Ouch. Payback's a bitch.


She will be doing jail time. Well deserved.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's the an article on Gerstein's comment -

http://m.thestar.com/#!/canada/cons...fys-expenses/b3461376a8db1178f1e412e3237d1846


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A former chief of staff defends a former chief of staff -

http://warrenkinsella.com/2013/11/in-sundays-sun-an-open-letter-to-conservative-delegates/


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *A hole. Ignore.*


Totally uncalled for, way to go raising the level of decorum around here. 

Oh and if you believe he should be ignored why don't you practice what you preach.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Totally uncalled for, way to go raising the level of decorum around here.
> 
> Oh and if you believe he should be ignored why don't you practice what you preach.


To a toadstool living on the detritus of normal human interaction, anything looks like food.


----------



## BigDL

This is the reason some posters deserve to be on an ignore list.

These posters can't defend the position of a favourite politician's poor performance after bragging on them for so long. So what to do, what to do? 

Try and change the channel, just like his hero is attempting to do, at every opportunity. 

This tactic isn't working any longer for his champion and this tactic shall not work for him any longer as well.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> This is the reason some posters deserve to be on an ignore list.
> 
> These posters can't defend the position of a favourite politician's poor performance after bragging on them for so long. So what to do, what to do?
> 
> Try and change the channel, just like his hero is attempting to do, at every opportunity.
> 
> This tactic isn't working any longer for his champion and this tactic shall not work for him any longer as well.


So do as you say and put the posters that you are speaking of on ignore rather than making derogatory posts such as this. Just put an end to it. 

Put on Ignore and move on. It really isn't that hard.


----------



## groovetube

sigh. Let's remember who started it. I won't respond to his direct personal attacks because I don't wish to make it less fun for the others.

Back to Canadian politics.... (again)

Stephen Harper speech to Conservatives hits at embattled senators, Justin Trudeau and

It's interesting that Harper keeps slinging the 'elites' around. Because from my perspective, it seems to me that they themselves, have now become the elites they have sworn to fight.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *sigh. Let's remember who started it.* I won't respond to his direct personal attacks because I don't wish to make it less fun for the others.
> 
> Back to Canadian politics.... (again)
> 
> Stephen Harper speech to Conservatives hits at embattled senators, Justin Trudeau and
> 
> It's interesting that Harper keeps slinging the 'elites' around. Because from my perspective, it seems to me that they themselves, have now become the elites they have sworn to fight.


"But Mom he started it..." The cry of every child to its mother when children are caught fighting. Most wise mothers will simply say, "I don't care who stated it, I am putting an end to it."

So instead of resorting to such statements, why not try and be like a mother/parent and put an end to it yourself?

It doesn't really matter who started it because so long as you continue it you are just as culpable in the fight as the instigator.

Turning the other cheek makes you the better person, it may not be as satisfying to ones ego as it is to strike back, but in the end you will have put a stop to it, at least in terms of that engagement.

Sometimes, many times, it is best just to move on as if nothing was said or happened.


----------



## Macfury

Good advice, screature.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> sigh. Let's remember who started it. I won't respond to his direct personal attacks because I don't wish to make it less fun for the others.
> 
> Back to Canadian politics.... (again)
> 
> Stephen Harper speech to Conservatives hits at embattled senators, Justin Trudeau and
> 
> It's interesting that Harper keeps slinging the 'elites' around. Because from my perspective, it seems to me that they themselves, have now become the elites they have sworn to fight.


I have to agree with you.

THINK PURPLE Trudeau is going after Blue Liberals to come back into the fold and attempting to appeal to the so called Red Tories.

If you can attract the red and blue then the Conservatives will bleed the purple support. This terrifies the Conservative elite. 

The Conservatives can count on and abuse their 30% rock solid base, it's the 10% Red Tories and Blue Liberals that are volatile and much needed.

As long as the Liberals campaign for the Purple, Trudeau shall be the target.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> "But Mom he started it..." The cry of every child to its mother when children are caught fighting. Most wise mothers will simply say, "I don't care who stated it, I am putting an end to it."
> 
> So instead of resorting to such statements, why not try and be like a mother/parent and put an end to it yourself?
> 
> It doesn't really matter who started it because so long as you continue it you are just as culpable in the fight as the instigator.
> 
> Turning the other cheek makes you the better person, it may not be as satisfying to ones ego as it is to strike back, but in the end you will have put a stop to it, at least in terms of that engagement.
> 
> Sometimes, many times, it is best just to move on as if nothing was said or happened.


My mom would say, "I don't care who started it, I am ending this NOW!!!!"

So, PM Harper should just put his foot down, tell his supporters and caucus to toe the party line and stop griping ............... since the alternative would be the Liberals or NDP. I don't see him taking the high road and do a Harry Truman "The Buck Stops Here" position and take responsibility for this whole matter, regardless of who started it. Still, moving on "as if nothing was said or happened" would be his best move, with the occasional reminder that he is Prime Minister and the Liberals and NDP wait in the wings. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> My mom would say, "I don't care who started it, I am ending this NOW!!!!"
> 
> So, PM Harper should just put his foot down, tell his supporters and caucus to toe the party line and stop griping ............... since the alternative would be the Liberals or NDP. I don't see him taking the high road and do a Harry Truman "The Buck Stops Here" position and take responsibility for this whole matter, regardless of who started it. Still, moving on "as if nothing was said or happened" would be his best move, with the occasional reminder that he is Prime Minister and the Liberals and NDP wait in the wings. We shall see.


Dr. G., this is not what Harry Truman meant. His famous sign indicated that the president must make the final decision in all matters, not that the president is responsible for all that happens during his term of office.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> "But Mom he started it..." The cry of every child to its mother when children are caught fighting. Most wise mothers will simply say, "I don't care who stated it, I am putting an end to it."
> 
> So instead of resorting to such statements, why not try and be like a mother/parent and put an end to it yourself?
> 
> It doesn't really matter who started it because so long as you continue it you are just as culpable in the fight as the instigator.
> 
> Turning the other cheek makes you the better person, it may not be as satisfying to ones ego as it is to strike back, but in the end you will have put a stop to it, at least in terms of that engagement.
> 
> Sometimes, many times, it is best just to move on as if nothing was said or happened.


why are you extending this? Take your advice, and move on. Please. 

Thanks.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> why are you extending this? Take your advice, and move on. Please.
> 
> Thanks.


Pot, kettle...


----------



## screature

At some point Nigel Wright will reveal what he knows


----------



## BigDL

It shall be interesting to see, in next short while, if Mulcair's short prosecutorial questions will continue to favour Trudeau's popularity.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> At some point Nigel Wright will reveal what he knows


Interesting. I've noticed that a number if ministers have come out buttering him up a little, I thought perhaps that's to try and make up a little for Harper throwing him under the bus. No doubt there's something that's being worked out to satisfy both ends here.


----------



## BigDL

Not buttering Ministers, I fear, but future wannabe Prime Minister smell blood in the water and are acting like sharks circling chum. :clap:


----------



## eMacMan

> Not buttering Ministers, I fear, but future wannabe Prime Minister smell blood in the water and are acting like sharks circling chum. :clap:


Rather premature. If King Harpo squanders his majority down to a minority they will start licking their chops. Should he drop all the away to LoOP, he will be Gonzo.


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps premature, but it has started and is getting some legs, the knives will come out (if they haven't already) and well, we all saw what that did to the liberal party. I'm sure Conservative party supporters will hotly deny that it could happen, but it'll be interesting to watch if/when Harper starts his decent.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dr. G., this is not what Harry Truman meant. His famous sign indicated that the president must make the final decision in all matters, not that the president is responsible for all that happens during his term of office.


I know fully well what HST meant by this phrase, Macfury. He stood by that phrase and took the lumps and consequences. I don't think that PM Harper is as strong a person as was HST, and thus, he will let the others take the fall and rely upon the short-term memories of some of the electorate to ride out this storm. I know your feelings about HST, so let's not get into a debate here on that issue.

Sadly, PM Harper had my vote way back in 2006, but he has not earned my support since then with his actions that did not coincide with his words and promises.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I know fully well what HST meant by this phrase, Macfury. He stood by that phrase and took the lumps and consequences. I don't think that PM Harper is as strong a person as was HST, and thus, he will let the others take the fall and rely upon the short-term memories of some of the electorate to ride out this storm. I know your feelings about HST, so let's not get into a debate here on that issue.


I have mixed feelings about Truman. It's FDR for whom I have no regard.

However, several quotes from Truman clarify his intent:



> "You know, it's easy for the Monday morning quarterback to say what the coach should have done, after the game is over. But when the decision is up before you -- and on my desk I have a motto which says The Buck Stops Here' -- the decision has to be made."





> The President--whoever he is--has to decide. He can't pass the buck to anybody. No one else can do the deciding for him. That's his job.


Truman: The Buck Stops Here


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I have mixed feelings about Truman. It's FDR for whom I have no regard.
> 
> However, several quotes from Truman clarify his intent:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truman: The Buck Stops Here


Sorry, for the miscue, Macfury. Still, I don't see the sort of backbone HST had as president being found in PM Harper. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry, for the miscue, Macfury. Still, I don't see the sort of backbone HST had as president being found in PM Harper.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I certainly don't see the level of backbone found in most modern political leaders as sufficient.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry, for the miscue, Macfury. Still, I don't see the sort of backbone HST had as president being found in PM Harper.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Sadly not. This is why I have been predicting that Canada will cave on FATCA with devastating results for many if not most of the million plus Canadians with any sort of American ties.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I certainly don't see the level of backbone found in most modern political leaders as sufficient.


Sadly, we agree here, Macfury. That is why I like Ron Paul's honesty, although not his views. He stands up for what he believes in, much the same way Barry Goldwater did back in 1964.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Kids today!*

.[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ8Y6XKvacg]Harper vs Trudeau Cdn Rap Battle (ERB PARODY) by Sam Barringer - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## CubaMark

*Soldier with PTSD says veterans cuts 'destroying' family*










A Canadian soldier who suffered a traumatic brain injury while serving in Afghanistan is speaking out today, saying that being bounced around within the Department of Veterans Affairs is “destroying” his family.

'We go overseas, we fight for our country, we do what we're asked and when we come home it's like we have to start another war all over again just to get the help we need.'
— Cpl. Shane Jones

Cpl. Shane Jones was among four soldiers injured, with a fifth killed, in 2005 when the light armoured vehicle they were travelling in rolled over after swerving to avoid a suicide bomber in Afghanistan. When the LAV flipped, it landed in a minefield, trapping him inside.

Jones suffered a traumatic brain injury in the accident and has been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Since his discharge from the military in 2008, Jones has had seven or eight different caseworkers — three since June — and has been bounced around from doctor to doctor.

“It’s so hard to get yourself better, it’s so hard to take the steps to admit you have a problem, to open yourself up and allow the help to come in,” said Jones. “And when they keep changing your case manager and you have to start from Square 1, you have to tell the story over and over and over again and there’s absolutely no need for it.”

“While you guys are figuring out which doctor I’m going to go see or which case manager I’m going to have this month or next month — what’s happening is that it’s destroying my family. My kids don’t know from day to day which dad they’re going to get. Is he going to be happy? Is he going to be mad? Is he going to be on his own?” said Jones.

“It’s too much bull****, sorry, but that’s what it is. We go overseas, we fight for our country, we do what we’re asked and when we come home it’s like we have to start another war all over again just to get the medical help we need. I never asked for any of this to happen to me. I know what I meant when I signed the dotted line but, silly me, I thought if something were to happen to me the government would take care of myself and my family. It’s been going on for years and years and years and it’s time for it to stop.”

Jones said a bad system was made worse once the cuts to Veterans Affairs were announced in 2011.​
(CBC)


----------



## groovetube

not so much support our troops now eh?

Prime Minister Harper addresses Support Our Troops rally on Parliament Hill | Prime Minister of Canada


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Petro $ B.S.*

Canada, the failed petrostate? - Blog Central, Econowatch - Macleans.ca


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Canada, the failed petrostate? - Blog Central, Econowatch - Macleans.ca


So many pathetic assumptions on Leach's part, where does one begin tearing him apart?


----------



## groovetube

Interesting. From the way I hear people talking, like if you want a job you gotta head west etc. etc. I would have thought it would have represented far more of our GDP, and it would be steadily rising significantly. The way Harper talks it's as if our very lives depends on it in this country.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> So many pathetic assumptions on Leach's part, where does one begin tearing him apart?


Please commence tearing him apart. I in turn will forward your "critique" to Leach for a response.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Please commence tearing him apart. I in turn will forward your "critique" to Leach for a response.


He's battling straw men, presenting a weirdly exaggerated sense of energy's importance them tearing it down to the realistic level that one would expect. Given that the U.S. is now becoming a dominant player in the oil and gas industry, who could be surprised that energy will stall? 

The Keystone pipeline is essential to ensure that Canadian oil reaches world markets as petroleum products, while LNG export facilities on the west coast will ensure natural gas reaches better paying markets in Asia. We might--just might-become a PetroState if those things happen. Otherwise, energy will stall big time.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> He's battling straw men, presenting a weirdly exaggerated sense of energy's importance them tearing it down to the realistic level that one would expect. Given that the U.S. is now becoming a dominant player in the oil and gas industry, who could be surprised that energy will stall?
> 
> The Keystone pipeline is essential to ensure that Canadian oil reaches world markets as petroleum products, while LNG export facilities on the west coast will ensure natural gas reaches better paying markets in Asia. We might--just might-become a PetroState if those things happen. Otherwise, energy will stall big time.


Any chance you can gather together a real critique? This is a failure.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Please commence tearing him apart. I in turn will forward your "critique" to Leach for a response.


this would make for an interesting read.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Of course the Dauphin too deserves some criticism, no?

Trudeau walking fine line on oilsands, environment | canada.com


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> True, but waste is waste, be it with municipal, provincial or federal tax dollars.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.





BigDL said:


> :clap:
> 
> ...and to your point there is only one taxpayer.





groovetube said:


> ah yes. The ol someone else will pay for it trick. Rob Ford is using to convince everyone that subways are actually free :lmao:


Waste maybe waste but to which level of government you assign that waste matters. 

There is only one tax payer but they pay their taxes to 3 distinct jurisdictions of responsibility.

Dr. G. assigned waste to the federal government and then suggested how the money could be better spent on matters that are of provincial governments jurisdiction, apples and oranges. 

This kind of cross jurisdictional confusion is not helpful in the least and thus why I pointed it out.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Any chance you can gather together a real critique? This is a failure.


Sure. Work harder on better quality in your next link.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Sure. Work harder on better quality in your next link.


Sorry but this is quite limp, even for you.

I cannot possibly put this forward without more substance. But thank you for your input.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sorry but this is quite limp, even for you.
> 
> I cannot possibly put this forward without more substance. But thank you for your input.


And neither can I comment more on your sad link that presents no substance at all. Good day to you, sir.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> And neither can I comment more on your sad link that presents no substance at all. Good day to you, sir.


The problem I have with your statement is that you didn't know where to begin tearing it apart. Given the opportunity to tear it apart you have failed.

Why would you make such a grandiose statement at the outset?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper's newest punching bag*

MP Calandra makes name as Senate punching bag | Metro


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The problem I have with your statement is that you didn't know where to begin tearing it apart. Given the opportunity to tear it apart you have failed.
> 
> Why would you make such a grandiose statement at the outset?


You clearly don't understand the data, or the proposition he makes. I can't take the time to run a class in basic statistics for you. Good day to you, jimbotelecom!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A feeble copout. Please Mr. Statistician why not try to enlighten us with your vast wisdom?


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The problem I have with your statement is that you didn't know where to begin tearing it apart. Given the opportunity to tear it apart you have failed.
> 
> Why would you make such a grandiose statement at the outset?


After having read it, I'd have been interested in reading a critique. Admittedly I'm not an expert in this subject, but if one lambasts it so strongly, at least say why!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Still waiting


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Heck I guess the data are skewed.


----------



## BigDL

Skippy, if I recall correctly, you are waiting on the master of "speaking more and more and saying less and less." 

Good luck with your quest.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Daft Tories!*

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151690050315950


----------



## Dr.G.

The role of the public prosecutor, an innovation brought in by the Harper government as part of the Accountability Act, is to remove any cloud of political interference from the legal system. ”There’s going to be a new code on Parliament Hill,” Harper said as he introduced the public prosecutor model during that hotly contested 2006 election campaign. ”Bend the rules, you will be punished; break the law, you will be charged; abuse the public trust, you will go to prison.”

'Bend the rules, you will be punished' - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca

It's good to know that PM Harper is a man of his words.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> The role of the public prosecutor, an innovation brought in by the Harper government as part of the Accountability Act, is to remove any cloud of political interference from the legal system. ”There’s going to be a new code on Parliament Hill,” Harper said as he introduced the public prosecutor model during that hotly contested 2006 election campaign. ”Bend the rules, you will be punished; break the law, you will be charged; abuse the public trust, you will go to prison.”
> 
> 'Bend the rules, you will be punished' - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca
> 
> It's good to know that PM Harper is a man of his words.


Here, here! However, I guess the public prosecutor has not yet seen anything worth acting on.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Here, here! However, I guess the public prosecutor has not yet seen anything worth acting on.


Right on, Macfury. Now, it's onward and upward to a next majority election.

"O CAPTAIN! my Captain! our fearful trip is done; 
The ship has weather’d every rack, the prize we sought is won; 
The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting ...."


----------



## Dr.G.

BREAKING NEWS: Senate votes to suspend Senator Patrick Brazeau 50-29 with 13 abstentions. 

Vote on Mike Duffy up next.


----------



## eMacMan

Three down, a whole bunch to go!


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Three down, a whole bunch to go!


Well, at least they got to keep their benefits and this should count towards pensionable service towards their pension. 

Conrad Black should sponsor a telethon to help these three with their financial "woes" until they are back on the federal payroll. They could get Jerry Lewis to host this gala event. Throw in a weeping Rob Ford and the donations will start to flow in faster than Jerry's charity work for the Muscular Dystrophy Association every Labor Day.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMVmRbzTv4]The LAST MDA Telethon W/ JERRY LEWIS (2010) - FINAL (59 million US$) - part 2 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]

"The Senate flexed its muscle Tuesday and in an unprecedented move tossed three of its members — Senators Mike Duffy, Pamela Wallin and Patrick Brazeau — out of the chamber, cutting their salaries and use of office resources.

Senators were allowed to vote separately with these results:
■On the motion to suspend Brazeau without pay, 50 yeas, 29 nays, 13 abstentions.
■On the motion to suspend Duffy without pay, 52 yeas, 28 nays, 11 abstentions.
■On the motion to suspend Wallin without pay, 52 yeas, 27 nays, 12 abstentions.

The suspensions are to last for the remainder of the session, likely until the next federal election in 2015."

Senate votes to suspend Brazeau, Duffy, Wallin - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Dr.G.

Rick Mercer Veterans Rant Targets Tory Cuts On Remembrance Day (VIDEO)

I agree with Rick Mercer's rant re the disservice our government has shown to our vets. We need to remember those "who gave their last full measure of devotion" as well as those who were able to come back to Canada. They have earned our pride and respect, and we all owe them something for what they did overseas.

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Well, at least they got to keep their benefits and this should count towards pensionable service towards their pension.
> 
> Conrad Black should sponsor a telethon to help these three with their financial "woes" until they are back on the federal payroll. They could get Jerry Lewis to host this gala event. Throw in a weeping Rob Ford and the donations will start to flow in faster than Jerry's charity work for the Muscular Dystrophy Association every Labor Day.
> 
> The LAST MDA Telethon W/ JERRY LEWIS (2010) - FINAL (59 million US$) - part 2 of 2 - YouTube
> 
> "The Senate flexed its muscle Tuesday and in an unprecedented move tossed three of its members — Senators Mike Duffy, Pamela Wallin and Patrick Brazeau — out of the chamber, cutting their salaries and use of office resources.
> 
> Senators were allowed to vote separately with these results:
> ■On the motion to suspend Brazeau without pay, 50 yeas, 29 nays, 13 abstentions.
> ■On the motion to suspend Duffy without pay, 52 yeas, 28 nays, 11 abstentions.
> ■On the motion to suspend Wallin without pay, 52 yeas, 27 nays, 12 abstentions.
> 
> The suspensions are to last for the remainder of the session, likely until the next federal election in 2015."
> 
> Senate votes to suspend Brazeau, Duffy, Wallin - Politics - CBC News


No that will only be good until the next Perogie putluck dinner perhaps as early as February but almost certainly by mid-May.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Rick Mercer Veterans Rant Targets Tory Cuts On Remembrance Day (VIDEO)
> 
> I agree with Rick Mercer's rant re the disservice our government has shown to our vets. We need to remember those "who gave their last full measure of devotion" as well as those who were able to come back to Canada. They have earned our pride and respect, and we all owe them something for what they did overseas.
> 
> Paix, mes amis.


Absolutely! No matter what your feelings about the wars we asked them to fight, calling this treatment of our soldiers 'disgraceful' is a serious understatement.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Absolutely no matter what your feelings about the wars we asked them to fight, calling this treatment of our soldiers 'disgraceful' is a serious understatement.


Agreed. Personally, I am in favor of greater support for the vets as well as their families. All have paid a price, one way or the other, while the rest of us were here in Canada safe and sound. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Rick Mercer Veterans Rant Targets Tory Cuts On Remembrance Day (VIDEO)
> 
> I agree with Rick Mercer's rant re the disservice our government has shown to our vets. We need to remember those "who gave their last full measure of devotion" as well as those who were able to come back to Canada. They have earned our pride and respect, and we all owe them something for what they did overseas.
> 
> Paix, mes amis.


Still waiting for the Harpo Confederates to leap to their regents defense on this one. After all according to the Con worshippers: The King rules by divine right and can therefore do no wrong


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Still waiting for the Harpo Confederates to leap to their regents defense on this one. After all according to the Con worshippers: The King rules by divine right and can therefore do no wrong


Well, let's hope that PM Harper chooses to "side with the angels" and provide support for the vets and their families. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lest we forget some of the people we are saying we should not forget by wearing a poppy.


"Rick Mercer believes Canada's last three defence ministers should take off their poppies — and stab themselves in the head with them — over the way injured veterans are being treated these days.

In a blistering rant Tuesday night, the CBC comedian accused the government of "throwing soldiers out of the service" when they are just months shy of the ten years of service required to qualify for a fully indexed pension. 

The government has done this, he said, when such soldiers are no longer eligible to deploy overseas.

"And why can't they be deployed overseas? Because they are missing limbs, they are blind, they are deaf, they are suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder," he said. "We sent them to Afghanistan, they came back broken and our government has found a loophole to throw them to the curb, so no pension for them."

Mercer argues the government has broken faith with the men and women who defend this country, while MPs and cabinet ministers are assured a pension after just six years.

"Not that being a cabinet minister is not a dangerous job. Most of them gain two suit sizes for every year they serve," Mercer quipped. "The threat of adult onset diabetes is real."

The comedian said the treatment of wounded veterans goes beyond politics, and instead to the heart of what we stand for as a nation.

"We ask these men and women to defend us," he said. "If we harm them, when they can no longer defend themselves — we stand for nothing." "

Rick Mercer: Injured Veterans Are Being Tossed To The Curb


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Still waiting for the Harpo Confederates to leap to their regents defense on this one. After all according to the Con worshippers: The King rules by divine right and can therefore do no wrong


I'm hearing very little on this from cons. I don't know if it's disbelief, or perhaps hoping this will die down.

But it's pretty disappointing that part of your deficit slaying includes this.

Support our troops! Here comes Nov. 11th mr. harper, it may be a rough ride (hopefully).


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I'm hearing very little on this from cons. I don't know if it's disbelief, or perhaps hoping this will die down.
> 
> But it's pretty disappointing that part of your deficit slaying includes this.
> 
> Support our troops! Here comes Nov. 11th mr. harper, it may be a rough ride (hopefully).


Yep just because someone is your kind of guy does not mean you should not stand up to him when you know he is wrong. As a matter of fact democracy demands it!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I'm hearing very little on this from cons. I don't know if it's disbelief, or perhaps hoping this will die down.
> 
> But it's pretty disappointing that part of your deficit slaying includes this.
> 
> Support our troops! Here comes Nov. 11th mr. harper, it may be a rough ride (hopefully).


It will be a disgrace if the Harper government does not reverse this decision.


----------



## Dr.G.

Suspended senators will keep right to collect parliamentary pensions - The Globe and Mail

Well, at least some people will be getting full pensions ............... so long as they are no wounded service men and women. Shame!!!! tptptptptptptptp


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Suspended senators will keep right to collect parliamentary pensions - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Well, at least some people will be getting full pensions ............... so long as they are no wounded service men and women. Shame!!!! tptptptptptptptp


See they are keeping their supplemental medical benefits, but no such luck for their staff.

Howzat for a double-whammy. No more paycheck cause your boss is a louse and by the way forgot those dental and optical benefits as well.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> See they are keeping their supplemental medical benefits, but no such luck for their staff.
> 
> Howzat for a double-whammy. No more paycheck cause your boss is a louse and by the way forgot those dental and optical benefits as well.


This just adds to the shame. Still, I think that what they are doing to the vets is truly shameful. tptptptptptptptp


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford saga undoing Toronto

The title is about rob ford, but it also speaks to the senate scandal occurring in Ottawa right now.

The tories like to speak about how running government should be like running a business. Well, it seems they don't like the rules of running it like a business.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford saga undoing Toronto
> 
> The title is about rob ford, but it also speaks to the senate scandal occurring in Ottawa right now.
> 
> The tories like to speak about how running government should be like running a business. Well, it seems they don't like the rules of running it like a business.


Rob Ford will survive, the Harper government will survive, and I am sure that the GTA and ON will survive all these scandals. If the Leafs make it to the Stanley Cup finals all will be forgiven. If the Leafs win the Stanley Cup, Mayor Ford will resign and be named to the Canadian Senate, Mike Duffy will run for Mayor of TO, and Pam Wallin will go the US and support the candicacy of Hillary Clinton for president in 2016.

Go, Leafs, Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## groovetube

Sounds like a song in the making G


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> This just adds to the shame. Still, I think that what they are doing to the vets is truly shameful. tptptptptptptptp


Yep and the total silence of our resident Con men on this issue is also noted.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Sounds like a song in the making G


Our Maple Leafs, will win the Cup some day.
True fans rejoice and leave behind dismay.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The Leafs are strong and free.
From far and wide, our Maple Leafs
Will win the Cup someday.
God keep our Leafs glorious and free,
O Maple Leafs! We still will cheer for thee.
O Maple Leafs! We still will cheer for thee ............................

(Even if you lose the Cup once again.)

Sung to the tune of "O Canada!"


----------



## FeXL

Good news!

Ontario Liberals to jack spending by $5 billion



> The Ontario government is planning to spend its way out of the economic doldrums.
> 
> Government expenses including debt repayment fees will rise by almost $5 billion this year, reversing course on a restraint trend that saw total spending actually drop in 2012-13 compared to the previous year.
> 
> Premier Kathleen Wynne said she is focused on controlling expenses, but will not usher in an austerity budget that dramatically reduces spending.


Why not? After all, look how well the same concept is doing stateside...


----------



## MacGuiver

FeXL said:


> Good news!
> 
> Ontario Liberals to jack spending by $5 billion
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? After all, look how well the same concept is doing stateside...


Thats the way everyone should run their household. These politicians are brilliant.
Job not meeting the bills? Debt piling up? Cable package not quite up to snuff? New 70 inch LED TV at costco better than your 40 inch? No problems, you have credit cards that you can use to spend you way to prosperity.
I'm non partisan when it comes to my disgust with politicians that employ this brain fart ideology. Spend your way to prosperity eventually ends in bankruptcy for a household or a nation.


----------



## groovetube

It's probably better to make huge cuts to things like healthcare etc., and just hand it all in huge corporate tax cuts.


----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver said:


> I'm non partisan when it comes to my disgust with politicians that employ this brain fart ideology. Spend your way to prosperity eventually ends in bankruptcy for a household or a nation.


Agreed.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> It's probably better to make huge cuts to things like healthcare etc., and just hand it all in huge corporate tax cuts.


No need to make "huge" cuts to health care but I can understand you using in your scenario since its the one that elicits the most emotional response. Sorta like city mayors always saying they'll be forced to stop collecting garbage if their tax increase demands aren't met while they have pork barrel programs aplenty that the city could do without. That said I'm sure there are inefficiencies in the health care system that could be addressed as well.

But no I'm thinking maybe we should can the "green energy" BS for starters. Paying for bird choppers and capacity we don't even need at rates 10 times what we sell it for is insane to address a fictitious problem.
Then offering to pay the bills for people buying swirly light bulbs and thermostats to save electricity that we end up having to pay to Americans to take off our hands is insanity. Thats just one example but there are many. Runaway teacher, public servant and utility salaries and benefits is another.


----------



## SINC

MacGuiver said:


> No need to make "huge" cuts to health care but I can understand you using in your scenario since its the one that elicits the most emotional response. Sorta like city mayors always saying they'll be forced to stop collecting garbage if their tax increase demands aren't met while they have pork barrel programs aplenty that the city could do without. That said I'm sure there are inefficiencies in the health care system that could be addressed as well.
> 
> But no I'm thinking maybe we should can the "green energy" BS for starters. Paying for bird choppers and capacity we don't even need at rates 10 times what we sell it for is insane to address a fictitious problem.
> Then offering to pay the bills for people buying swirly light bulbs and thermostats to save electricity that we end up having to pay to Americans to take off our hands is insanity. Thats just one example but there are many. Runaway teacher, public servant and utility salaries and benefits is another.



How correct you are. This makes more sense than any post by lefties here in months.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> It's probably better to make huge cuts to things like healthcare etc., and just hand it all in huge corporate tax cuts.


groove, you whine on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on _ad nauseum_, until we all want to puke in spectacular TECHNICOLOR, with this same tired old cliche, yet offer nothing, nada, zip, as an alternative. How's the view from the cheap seats? It's pretty easy to be an armchair critic. 

Mr. Political Genius, how would you address Ontario's budget issues? In a few short paragraphs, hell, sentences, detail your solution. Give us something to chew on, oh wise one. The masses await your acumen.

Otherwise, shove your "Corporate Tax Cut" narrative into your left ear hole...


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> No need to make "huge" cuts to health care but I can understand you using in your scenario since its the one that elicits the most emotional response. Sorta like city mayors always saying they'll be forced to stop collecting garbage if their tax increase demands aren't met while they have pork barrel programs aplenty that the city could do without. That said I'm sure there are inefficiencies in the health care system that could be addressed as well.
> 
> But no I'm thinking maybe we should can the "green energy" BS for starters. Paying for bird choppers and capacity we don't even need at rates 10 times what we sell it for is insane to address a fictitious problem.
> Then offering to pay the bills for people buying swirly light bulbs and thermostats to save electricity that we end up having to pay to Americans to take off our hands is insanity. Thats just one example but there are many. Runaway teacher, public servant and utility salaries and benefits is another.


I'm well aware if the hypocrisy this government has shown not to mention, it's waste. However, what is the alternatives? While we keep hearing people who continually paint the 'leftie vs rightie' uselessness the truth is, what is the alternatives? What we see in Ottawa and their version of hypocrisy and unbelievable spending and waste?

What I pointed out, is exactly what happened in Ontario when the 'other side' took power. It's not an emotional response, but FACT. I know a few will spin it differently yeah... Why do both sides get away with it? It's because we allow them to. Simply voting in the other guy, only gets a different version of the same crap.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> It's probably better to make huge cuts to things like healthcare etc..


Why not, it was a central component of Chretien and Martin's phoney "surplus" scam.


----------



## groovetube

And that somehow gives it credibility?


----------



## eMacMan

Here come the diversions.

Clearly the Con men don't want to address Harpo's disgraceful treatment of Canada's vets so a Barf Limburger style attack campaign should create a nice smoke screen.

So how do you feel about Harpo retiring disabled vets a few months shy of their pension?


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> And that somehow gives it credibility?


Not at all, just pointing out that it would be a consistently Liberal thing to do.


----------



## groovetube

Really? What other liberal government did this?

And specifically, since macGuiver was talking about the Ontario government, is this what they have done or are planning?


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Not at all, just pointing out that it would be a consistently Liberal thing to do.


And your take on Harpo turning disabled vets out to pasture just before they are eligible for a pension is?


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> And your take on Harpo turning disabled vets out to pasture just before they are eligible for a pension is?


The policy is despicable and so very wrong. It's as bad as Chrétien and the Liberals sending them into harms way in the first place.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> Here come the diversions.
> 
> Clearly the Con men don't want to address Harpo's disgraceful treatment of Canada's vets so a Barf Limburger style attack campaign should create a nice smoke screen.
> 
> So how do you feel about Harpo retiring disabled vets a few months shy of their pension?


It's a disgrace.

It gives credence the to Conservative's position the only good war vets were rolled down the section of highway 401 designated Highway of Heroes.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> The policy is despicable and so very wrong. It's as bad as Chrétien and the Liberals sending them into harms way in the first place.


Actually it was Harper that expanded their role into a more combat role.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Really? What other liberal government did this?
> 
> And specifically, since macGuiver was talking about the Ontario government, is this what they have done or are planning?


Try to keep up. YOU make the crack about the Ont LPC cutting healthcare, and I followed that if they did it would be consistent since the Federal LPC did that last time they were in power.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> And your take on Harpo turning disabled vets out to pasture just before they are eligible for a pension is?


I don't have enough information to have a take on it. On the surface, it doesn't look good.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Actually it was Harper that expanded their role into a more combat role.


ACTUALLY IT WAS NOT:



> 2003–2005 Operation Athena
> 
> In August 2003, the Canadian Forces moved to the northern city of Kabul where it became the commanding nation of the newly formed International Security Assistance Force. Canada dubbed this Operation Athena and a 1,900-strong Canadian task force provided assistance to civilian infrastructure such as well-digging and repair of local buildings.
> 
> In March 2004, Canada committed $250 million in aid to Afghanistan, and $5 million to support the 2004 Afghan election.
> 
> On 13 February 2005, Defence Minister Bill Graham announced Canada was doubling the number of troops in Afghanistan by the coming summer, from 600 troops in Kabul to 1200.
> 
> In spring 2005 it was announced that the Canadian Forces would move back to the volatile Kandahar Province as the U.S. forces handed command to the Canadians in the region. Operation Athena ended in December 2005 and the fulfillment of the stated aim of "rebuilding the democratic process" in Afghanistan.


It was done and expanded by the Liberals as clearly stated above. Harper became PM in late January of 2006 and in May of that year he extended the time frame of the operation the Liberals had set in place by two years.


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_EDV0ME2QE]Poop Pile - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> ACTUALLY IT WAS NOT:


There ya go, using all those annoying facts 'n stuff. Bringin' a gun to a knife fight. How dare you! 

Now, he'll have to run to Google, find a lefty site that says otherwise & bring the link here...


----------



## eMacMan

Anyone who knows me, knows I am not a Chretien fan and even less of a Paul Martin Fan.

However I will give Chretien credit for keeping Canada out of Iraq, even if it was for the wrong reason. Harpo most of you will recall was dying to get in there, or rather all for having other Canadians die there.

Being a good deal more fiscally conservative than the resident Cons, I will very reluctantly admit that Chretien did a better job of managing the nations finances than Harpo. Had Harpo delayed tax cuts and gotten Canada out of Afghanistan when promised, most of the deficits on his watch would have been avoided, despite the worldwide recession.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Try to keep up. YOU make the crack about the Ont LPC cutting healthcare, and I followed that if they did it would be consistent since the Federal LPC did that last time they were in power.


No, I didn't make a crack about the Ontario LPC doing it.

You said it was consisted liberal policy to cut healthcare to balance budgets or give corp tax cuts. I'm not aware that all liberal governments where doing this, certainly not the one we have in ontario.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> ACTUALLY IT WAS NOT:
> 
> 
> 
> It was done and expanded by the Liberals as clearly stated above. Harper became PM in late January of 2006 and in May of that year he extended the time frame of the operation the Liberals had set in place by two years.


Perhaps it's operation Archer you are thinking about. Which, was in 2006. With the Harper government extending the Afghanistan stay by a few years.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Anyone who knows me, knows I am not a Chretien fan and even less of a Paul Martin Fan.
> 
> *However I will give Chretien credit for keeping Canada out of Iraq, even if it was for the wrong reason. Harpo most of you will recall was dying to get in there, or rather all for having other Canadians die there.*
> 
> Being a good deal more fiscally conservative than the resident Cons, I will very reluctantly admit that Chretien did a better job of managing the nations finances than Harpo. Had Harpo delayed tax cuts and gotten Canada out of Afghanistan when promised, most of the deficits on his watch would have been avoided, despite the worldwide recession.


Yep. The cons tend to be very quiet about that little tidbit.

The truth is, now they're busy arguing about whether Martin expanded the Afghanistan mission, or if it was Harper, the operation involved more combat 2006 on... (not to mention likely a post or two devoid of any contribution to the topic which about to be expected from certain quarters...)

But a nice diversion from the actual issue, which is the Harper government's disgusting treatment of our wounded vets. Can you just imagine of Harper got his way and sent a bunch of Canadians in resulting in way more casualties, so they can leave them high and dry as well?

Support our troops eh!


----------



## groovetube

And while that descends into an unrelated argument of which PM sent Canadians into the expanded role in 2006..

We have this: One of ‘the most ethical people I know’: Preston Manning jumps to Nigel Wright’s defence in Senate scandal’s wake | National Post



> One of ‘the most ethical people I know


 Preston Manning says of Nigel Wright.

So how does this look as Stephen Harper throws him under the bus?


----------



## BigDL

Many think Nigel Wright is the most ethical of people. 

As Mike Duffy produces documents to back his side of the story, many people think he is more credible.

What does this say about the ethics and credibility of one Stephen Harper? Discuss!


----------



## eMacMan

> (of Nigel Wright) “He’s one of the most able and ethical people that I know in the business world and political world,” said former Reform party leader Preston Manning.


We do need to look at the entire sentence. Nigel was a financier. Almost everyone in the political/financial world would be a better man/woman if they could even come close to matching the ethical values of say their garbage collector.


----------



## Macfury

Preston Manning thinks that his friend Nigel Wright did exactly what he is being accused of:



> Manning said he believes Wright was motivated by two things: Repay Duffy’s expenses to the taxpayer, and keep Harper “out of it.”
> 
> “I just think his motivation was honourable and commendable.”
> 
> *Manning said he’s not surprised Wright, a deeply religious and wealthy man, would dip into his own pocket to help Duffy.*
> 
> “He has helped dozens and dozens of people in various ways. He is charitable and he is philanthropic and he’s had the means to be philanthropic.”


One of ‘the most ethical people I know’: Preston Manning jumps to Nigel Wright’s defence in Senate scandal’s wake | National Post


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> And while that descends into an unrelated argument of which PM sent Canadians into the expanded role in 2006.


It's not unrelated, unless your original post bringing it up was unrelated. You get facts posted which prove your statement wrong, once again you can't accept the fact that you were wrong and the only out you have is to discard the response as unrelated & hope nobody picks up on it.

Sorry to disappoint you...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> It's not unrelated, unless your original post bringing it up was unrelated. You get facts posted which prove your statement wrong, once again you can't accept the fact that you were wrong and the only out you have is to discard the response as unrelated & hope nobody picks up on it.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you...


What a coincidence, that's exactly what I thought when I read that response.


----------



## Macfury

It's like mixing vinegar and baking soda. The reaction is 100% predictable.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> What a coincidence, that's exactly what I thought when I read that response.


Guess you've never heard of operation archer. 

And it really is a diversion, given that the attempt to change the channel on which government was in power when the Canadians took on command and took on a more combat role, is a pretty obvious one.

It still has -nothing- to do with the conservatives cutting veteran benefits and the wounded vets being tossed without a pension.

Period. You may not like it, I'm sure there be some snorting and foot stamping, so have at'er. It still won't change the issue of the conservatives and the treatment if our returning vets.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> It still has -nothing- to do with the conservatives cutting veteran benefits and the wounded vets being tossed without a pension.





groovetube said:


> Actually it was Harper that expanded their role into a more combat role.


Then why did you bring it up in the first place?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> The policy is despicable and so very wrong.* It's as bad as Chrétien and the Liberals sending them into harms way in the first place.*





SINC said:


> Then why did you bring it up in the first place?


Really SINC? Now you want to go pages on and on, derailing another thread?

How about not. I don't agree with you, and clearly you don't with me. No one is interested in the usual 'liar' 'GT knows everything' stupidity, so lets not bother K? Not that I think that'll stop your buddy, but it's to agree to disagree.

Obviously, in the end, it makes no difference whether the liberals originally sent in troops and when and who changed their roles, or even that Harper extended the combat mission by years.

What matters, is how they are being treated now by this government, that made such a big deal about "supporting our troops". Let's keep things on topic and not derail.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> No one is interested in the usual 'liar' 'GT knows everything' stupidity, so lets not bother K?


Actually, I'm very interested. The only issue I'm having difficulty deciding is if your constant deflection is chronic or pathological...


----------



## groovetube

Not to worry other members, I'm not falling for the constant goads for a fight.

I'll just wait til they're done the BS, and rejoin whatever it was we were talking about.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Guess you've never heard of operation archer.
> 
> And it really is a diversion, given that the attempt to change the channel on which government was in power when the Canadians took on command and took on a more combat role, is a pretty obvious one.
> 
> It still has -nothing- to do with the conservatives cutting veteran benefits and the wounded vets being tossed without a pension.
> 
> Period. You may not like it, I'm sure there be some snorting and foot stamping, so have at'er. It still won't change the issue of the conservatives and the treatment if our returning vets.





groovetube said:


> Really SINC? Now you want to go pages on and on, derailing another thread?
> 
> How about not. I don't agree with you, and clearly you don't with me. No one is interested in the usual 'liar' 'GT knows everything' stupidity, so lets not bother K?
> 
> Obviously, in the end, it makes no difference whether the liberals originally sent in troops and when and who changed their roles, or even that Harper extended the combat mission by years.
> 
> What matters, is how they are being treated now by this government, that made such a big deal about "supporting our troops". Let's keep things on topic and not derail.


GT This is too funny!

Apparently chicken$#!†s do not want to condemn or change the direction of Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable Majority, Conservative Government. 

If you can't defend the failed policies and credibility of *HIS GOVERNMENT* then obviscate, deflect or offer up plain nonsense. 

In Parliament these are the responses offered to strait forward questions in Question Period perhaps Harper Nation follow the same credo.


----------



## Macfury

Big DL, I love the way you create new words by re-imagining their spellings!


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> If you can't defend the failed policies and credibility of *HIS GOVERNMENT* then obviscate, deflect or offer up plain nonsense.


And apparently you can't read very well:



SINC said:


> The policy is despicable and so very wrong.


And for the record, is THIS the word you were trying in vain to use?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Then why did you bring it up in the first place?


Being Trolled



> You're on the Internet, and you're trying to explain something sensible to someone, and they're heaping abuse on you? And when you start to make headway with a point, they sideslip into something totally irrelevant? And everything that is obviously subjective is objective to them? And everything obviously objective is subjective to them?


Bang on!


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> GT This is too funny!
> 
> Apparently chicken$#!†s do not want to condemn or change the direction of Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable Majority, Conservative Government.
> 
> If you can't defend the failed policies and credibility of *HIS GOVERNMENT* then obviscate, deflect or offer up plain nonsense.
> 
> In Parliament these are the responses offered to strait forward questions in Question Period perhaps Harper Nation follow the same credo.


The piranhas are all over you now. Hopefully this gets back on track tomorrow.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Not to worry other members, I'm not falling for the constant goads for a fight.
> 
> I'll just wait til they're done the BS, and rejoin whatever it was we were talking about.


What's this? Are you addressing the members of your fan club? Stop flattering yourself, groove...


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> The piranhas are all over you now. Hopefully this gets back on track tomorrow.


Do you know what would help here? If you recused yourself from the whole thread. Maybe the boards, period. No more groove, no more distractions, no more deflections, no more lying, no more whining, no more victimization, no more derailing.

Think about it. It's not us. It's you...


----------



## groovetube

.


----------



## groovetube

back... on topic...

Veterans Affairs rally in Sydney brings out thousands - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Rallies springing up to protest the cons closing the veteran affairs offices.


----------



## Macfury

It's funny. This behaviour reminds me so much of that of Rob Ford: "Can't we just put this squabbling behind us and get back on topic? I just need to get back on track, so I can do my good work for the citizens of EhMac."

Only difference is that Ford occasionally admits to his problems.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> back... on topic...
> 
> Veterans Affairs rally in Sydney brings out thousands - Nova Scotia - CBC News
> 
> Rallies springing up to protest the cons closing the veteran affairs offices.


Seems to me this issue of poor treatment of the Military Personal and Military Families will undermine Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government, with the base, than will the PMO-Duffy Scandal. 

The firing of permanently injured Military Personal just shy of pensionable eligibility. 

Not providing healthy, decent and affordable housing to Military Families.

Treating Veterans, Our Heros, poorly. Cutting services to the elderly veterans and benefits to the younger veterans.

These actions will resonate with the base and undermine the support of the base with Stephen Harper's Government more so than the PMO-Duffy debacle.

Stephen Harper can't procure Jets, Ships or Helicopters now it seems Harper's strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government can't even buy or rent houses for Military Families.

Oh! I forgot it's because Stephen Harper's strong management of the economy. Tax cuts for corporation, service cuts for the Military (by inaction) and Military Families and Veterans.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Seems to me this issue of poor treatment of the Military Personal and Military Families will undermine Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government, with the base, than will the PMO-Duffy Scandal.
> 
> The firing of permanently injured Military Personal just shy of pensionable eligibility.
> 
> Not providing healthy, decent and affordable housing to Military Families.
> 
> Treating Veterans, Our Heros, poorly. Cutting services to the elderly veterans and benefits to the younger veterans.
> 
> These actions will resonate with the base and undermine the support of the base with Stephen Harper's Government more so than the PMO-Duffy debacle.
> 
> Stephen Harper can't procure Jets, Ships or Helicopters now it seems Harper's strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government can't even buy or rent houses for Military Families.
> 
> Oh! I forgot it's because Stephen Harper's strong management of the economy. Tax cuts for corporation, service cuts for the Military (by inaction) and Military Families and Veterans.


While I care about these issues, poor treatment of veterans has been the order of the day since soldiers fought. It is not going to have much effect at the polls.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> It's funny. This behaviour reminds me so much of that of Rob Ford: "Can't we just put this squabbling behind us and get back on topic? I just need to get back on track, so I can do my good work for the citizens of EhMac."
> 
> Only difference is that Ford occasionally admits to his problems.


No, the difference is Ford was doing illegal and questionable things while being in charge of a $9 billion dollar budget and being an ambassador of the city of Toronto.

The other guy said some stuff that 3 or 4 people on a message board disagree with.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> No, the difference is Ford was doing illegal and questionable things while being in charge of a $9 billion dollar budget and being an ambassador of the city of Toronto.
> 
> The other guy said some stuff that 3 or 4 people on a message board disagree with.


Nope. It's not disagreeing with that's the problem. It's the constant wavering, backtracking and accusations.


----------



## i-rui

Did you know there's an ignore feature if you find his posts so offensive?

It would be a better option than derailing threads IMO


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Did you know there's an ignore feature if you find his posts so offensive?
> 
> It would be a better option than derailing threads IMO


If someone is lying or accusing you of something falsely, better to know about it, even on such an ignoble forum.

Holding up on the lies and accusations would be a better way to void future derailments.


----------



## screature

God help us if Trudeau ever becomes PM, he will make Canada a laughing stock in the International community.


Trudeau under fire for expressing admiration for China's 'basic dictatorship'


----------



## BigDL

*Answers Please*

Any answers about Harper Conservative's Accountability? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COwvznzJkV8


----------



## MacGuiver

screature said:


> God help us if Trudeau ever becomes PM, he will make Canada a laughing stock in the International community.
> 
> 
> Trudeau under fire for expressing admiration for China's 'basic dictatorship'


It should make for great television when he's forced into a live debate on real issues in the run up to the federal election.


----------



## screature

MP Nathan Cullen not running for B.C. NDP leadership

Too bad, it would have gotten his pretentious, smug, snide, arrogant, holier than though, self aggrandizing, belligerent, etc., etc. ass out of Ottawa.

Just look at him and tell me all those adjectives don't apply...









Angry Tom probably took congeniality lessons from Sullen Cullen.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Trudeau under fire for expressing admiration for China's 'basic dictatorship'


Jut like his daddy!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Jut like his daddy!


I don't think the "kid" has a truly original thought/idea in his brain and if he does it would most likely be a bad, misinformed thought/idea at that.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> I don't think the "kid" has a truly original thought/idea in his brain and if he does it would most likely be a bad, misinformed thought/idea at that.


It would be a sad day for this country if a fluke like young Trudeau was ever elected to even a minority. He is nothing but trouble ahead. And he has not even one iota of the intellect of his father. None.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I don't think the "kid" has a truly original thought/idea in his brain and if he does it would most likely be a bad, misinformed thought/idea at that.


I've had the misfortune of hearing him ruminate on his ideas in person. He was shockingly incoherent and facile.


----------



## MacGuiver

SINC said:


> It would be a sad day for this country if a fluke like young Trudeau was ever elected to even a minority. He is nothing but trouble ahead. And he has not even one iota of the intellect of his father. None.


It wouldn't shock me if he become's the next Prime Minister. Look south of the border to see how far style can get you over substance.


----------



## SINC

MacGuiver said:


> It wouldn't shock me if he become's the next Prime Minister. Look south of the border to see how far style can get you over substance.


If that happens, it will be due to the support of the left, many of whom are here on this board, in this thread who are supporters of this youngster devoid of any coherent thought or policy. An intellectual midget best describes Trudeau Jr.


----------



## groovetube

I look forward to the day when Harper and his crew are sent packing.

Besides, wasn't Harper a mere 46 when he was elected? Trudeau would be about the same age in 2015!

And it aint like Harper had much experience either... Obviously.

So all that crap is, well just crap.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> I look forward to the day when Harper and his crew are sent packing.
> 
> Besides, wasn't Harper a mere 46 when he was elected? Trudeau would be about the same age in 2015!
> 
> And it aint like Harper had much experience either... Obviously.
> 
> So all that crap is, well just crap.


I think the liberals had some FAAAAAR better options than Justin. Riding it all on the Trudeau name was a big mistake. They had a lot of candidates they passed on with far more political depth. I still think he could get in but for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## groovetube

Well Harper got in on transparency and accountability right?

All the wrong reasons!

As for other candidates, I'm sure there were possibilities with more political depth than Harper (though this may be heresy amongst his supporters..) but in the end, it's about selling the brand. Perhaps what may be different than with how Harper works, is it won't just bee the party leader running absolutely everything with an iron grip. Surrounding himself with those with more political depth will work very well.


----------



## Macfury

Huh?


----------



## groovetube

Let's save a couple pages here. First there's bewilderment, then they'll be some stamping about how Harper at 46 with little to no experience running a country is better than Trudeau at 46 with little to no experience running a country.

So far, macGuiver is one of the few who seems to be able have a decent conversation with, whether we agree or not.


----------



## Macfury

Have fun, McGuiver!


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> Let's save a couple pages here. First there's bewilderment, then they'll be some stamping about how Harper at 46 with little to no experience running a country is better than Trudeau at 46 with little to no experience running a country.
> 
> So far, macGuiver is one of the few who seems to be able have a decent conversation with, whether we agree or not.


I don't take issue with Justin's age nor did I take issue with Harper's age when he took on the leadership roll. Age doesn't necessarily equate to wisdom. There are politicians in there 60s that are still clueless. 
He's in over his head. I can't imagine Steven Harper at 46 publicly putting a communist dictatorship like China as his most admirable country. I can't imagine some of the better liberal candidates doing it either. :yikes:


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I don't take issue with Justin's age nor did I take issue with Harper's age when he took on the leadership roll. Age doesn't necessarily equate to wisdom. There are politicians in there 60s that are still clueless.
> He's in over his head. I can't imagine Steven Harper at 46 publicly putting a communist dictatorship like China as his most admirable country. I can't imagine some of the better liberal candidates doing it either. :yikes:


I think a lot is being made out of this China comment. Clearly Harper and co has thought enough of China to broker such a deal in the oil patch! 

This whole 'over his head' thing, seems to me to be devoid of any real substance. Ironically.


----------



## CubaMark

I'm no fan of Justin Trudeau - but I do think the China comment is being taken very much out of context and exaggerated. What he said was true enough - a dictatorship has the ability to more quickly enact whatever programme it is implementing, without having to worry about pesky things like democracy. Whether that programme is for the good or ill of the citizenry is not part of the discussion. Trudeau was well aware when he made the statement that it would be used in this way - but it was still a poor choice of words for the leader of a federal political party.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> I think a lot is being made out of this China comment. Clearly Harper and co has thought enough of China to broker such a deal in the oil patch!
> 
> This whole 'over his head' thing, seems to me to be devoid of any real substance. Ironically.


Doing business with them is one thing, holding their dictatorship up as something to be admired is another.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I'm no fan of Justin Trudeau - but I do think the China comment is being taken very much out of context and exaggerated. What he said was true enough - a dictatorship has the ability to more quickly enact whatever programme it is implementing, without having to worry about pesky things like democracy. Whether that programme is for the good or ill of the citizenry is not part of the discussion. Trudeau was well aware when he made the statement that it would be used in this way - but it was still a poor choice of words for the leader of a federal political party.


I think the reactions are quite appropriate. You might want absolute authority, but musing aloud about it does not befit his aspirations.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> I think a lot is being made out of this China comment. Clearly Harper and co has thought enough of China to broker such a deal in the oil patch!
> 
> This whole 'over his head' thing, seems to me to be devoid of any real substance. Ironically.


But let's remember not at first.

Harper expressed distain of China then had to "Kiss Up" to China after China took umbrage to Harper's (Canada's) position. 

The answer Trudeau gave, to a pre-selected question might be a strategy worthy of Harper himself.

The more troubling quote from Trudeau that night was he didn't know the Yukon had political parties.


----------



## CubaMark

BigDL said:


> The more troubling quote from Trudeau that night was he didn't know the Yukon had political parties.


oooohh!!! Yeah, that's a blunder. But I think more Canadians should be aware of Nunavut's unique governing structure...


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> But let's remember not at first.
> 
> Harper expressed distain of China then had to "Kiss Up" to China after China took umbrage to Harper's (Canada's) position.
> 
> The answer Trudeau gave, to a pre-selected question might be a strategy worthy of Harper himself.
> 
> The more troubling quote from Trudeau that night was he didn't know the Yukon had political parties.


I am more troubled that he thinks that the ability for a government to act quickly is a good thing. There are very few bills that would not be improved by longer and closer review. Come to think of it the vast majority would be improved with a trip to the shredder.

OTOH the constant Con treadmill of fear aimed at Trudeau, is a pretty good indicator that the Cons are terrified that Trudeau will relegate the Harpo version of honest transparency and fiscal responsibility to the scrap heap. Those were the promises that took Harpo to the PMs job and those are the promises he has failed to keep even with a solid majority.


----------



## i-rui

CubaMark said:


> I'm no fan of Justin Trudeau - but I do think the China comment is being taken very much out of context and exaggerated. What he said was true enough - a dictatorship has the ability to more quickly enact whatever programme it is implementing, without having to worry about pesky things like democracy. Whether that programme is for the good or ill of the citizenry is not part of the discussion. Trudeau was well aware when he made the statement that it would be used in this way - but it was still a poor choice of words for the leader of a federal political party.


+1. I think the more important part of what he said is the idea that they're shifting to a green energy strategy, but that is getting less coverage.

still, i rather a politician answer naively than not answer at all the way Harper does when he doesn't like the question.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> I look forward to the day when Harper and his crew are sent packing.


I look forward to the day when you actually substantiate your opinion.



groovetube said:


> Besides, wasn't Harper a mere 46 when he was elected? Trudeau would be about the same age in 2015!
> 
> And it aint like Harper had much experience either... Obviously.
> 
> So all that crap is, well just crap.


Provide text, news stories, soundbites, anything, where Harper, prior to his election, stuck his foot in his mouth once anything like the dozens of times Shiny Pony has already done.

Otherwise, your crap is just, well, your unsubstantiated crap.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> I'm no fan of Justin Trudeau - but I do think the China comment is being taken very much out of context and exaggerated. What he said was true enough - a dictatorship has the ability to more quickly enact whatever programme it is implementing, without having to worry about pesky things like democracy. Whether that programme is for the good or ill of the citizenry is not part of the discussion. Trudeau was well aware when he made the statement that it would be used in this way - but it was still a poor choice of words for the leader of a federal political party.


I have to agree with this as well. I'm not a great fan of Trudeau, either, but then, I've never been a "fan" of anyone I've voted for. Generally choosing the best of the 3 choices (or 4 if you count greens) or voting strategically to help ensure -no one- gets a majority.

It was a poor choice of words. But then, what federal leader has never done so before?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I have to agree with this as well. I'm not a great fan of Trudeau, either, but then, I've never been a fan of anyone I've voted for. Generally choosing the best of the 3 choices (or 4 if you count greens) or voting strategically to help ensure -no one- gets a majority.
> 
> It was a poor choice of words. But then, what federal leader has never done so before?


Your avatar betrays you and clearly demonstrates your political preference.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Your avatar betrays you and clearly demonstrates your political preference.


actually no it doesn't, it was to fun someone after they found him looking incredibly arrogant. However no matter how I vote here it is a pretty solid NDP riding in any case.

So what does yours mean, theta you just go round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and...

:lmao:


----------



## SINC

You mean you can't even deduce SINC = SYNC symbol? That's just sad.


----------



## groovetube

I didn't want to take a chance since the last time someone's auto correct corrected your name to sync you jumped all over them.


----------



## SINC

Oh, yeah right, you're a victim, sorry, I forgot.


----------



## groovetube

And this ladies and gentleman, is where engaging SINC gets you.

Sorry pal you're now cut off as well joint the other 2 'usuals'. I should have done as others have in ignoring all 3. Go fight with someone else. I'm sure you'll find someone, you always do.


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzPdr2HDcq8]Worlds Biggest Turd - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Sorry pal you're now cut off as well. Go fight with someone else. I'm sure you'll find someone, you always do.


Well, that took long enough.

You see what happens, groove, when you engage people who are smarter than you?

Welcome to the club, SINC!

The line is long & distinguished, you'll fit right in!


----------



## groovetube

Justin Trudeau applauds China - but then, so does Stephen Harper - Politics - CBC News

Interesting take. I had thought Trudeau's comments were a bit of a dig at Harper. But this line was hilarious:



> Of course, what Trudeau actually said was catnip to Sun News,


:lmao:

yep.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> OTOH the constant Con treadmill of fear aimed at Trudeau, is a pretty good indicator that the Cons are terrified that Trudeau will relegate the Harpo version of honest transparency and fiscal responsibility to the scrap heap.


I don't think they're afraid of him. They're just bursting Trudeau's flaccid balloon early on to maximize votes.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I'm no fan of Justin Trudeau - but I do think the China comment is being taken very much out of context and exaggerated. What he said was true enough - a dictatorship has the ability to more quickly enact whatever programme it is implementing, without having to worry about pesky things like democracy. Whether that programme is for the good or ill of the citizenry is not part of the discussion. *Trudeau was well aware when he made the statement that it would be used in this way - but it was still a poor choice of words for the leader of a federal political party.*


I highly doubt it, he has made his fair share of embarrassing comments already in the short time he has been leader of the Libs. He seems to be prone to speak first and think second.


----------



## screature

MacGuiver said:


> Doing business with them is one thing, holding their dictatorship up as something to be admired is another.


Exactly. His words were not taken out of context as some want to try and pretend. The transcript is there for all to see. He meant exactly what he said and shows poor judgment.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I highly doubt it, he has made his fair share of embarrassing comments already in the short time he has been leader of the Libs. He seems to be prone to speak first and think second.


yes he does have that tendency.


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Justin Trudeau applauds China - but then, so does Stephen Harper - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Interesting take. I had thought Trudeau's comments were a bit of a dig at Harper. But this line was hilarious:
> 
> :lmao:
> 
> yep.



Meh. Terry Milewsk a know liberal hak. 

He bends so far over backwards to "rationalize" Trudeau's comment that one has to wonder if he wasn't doing so to "present" (as they say in the animal world) himself to Trudeau.

It seems he would have been well "positioned" to be among those in attendance that night.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Meh. Terry Milewsk a know liberal hak.
> 
> He bends so far over backwards to "rationalize" Trudeau's comment that one has to wonder if he wasn't doing so to "present" (as they say in the animal world) himself to Trudeau.
> 
> It seems he would have been well "positioned" to be among those in attendance that night.


The man is a buffoon. He actually sides with Trudeau's opinion in the piece, crediting dictatorship with the march from poverty, instead of greater economic freedom:



> ..an almost miraculous exodus from poverty has occurred in China. Dictatorship does have its advantages. Mussolini made the trains run on time.


Of course, Mussolini never made the trains run on time--it's an urban myth.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Meh. Terry Milewsk a know liberal hak.
> 
> He bends so far over backwards to "rationalize" Trudeau's comment that one has to wonder if he wasn't doing so to "present" (as they say in the animal world) himself to Trudeau.
> 
> It seems he would have been well "positioned" to be among those in attendance that night.


Of course you would say that. 

Besides whether or not if he is a 'liberal hack' or not, it seems Trudeau's full comments were an obvious dig at Harper.

I think the line about this being 'catnip' for con media is pretty hilarious! And obviously true! :lmao:


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Well, that took long enough.
> 
> You see what happens, groove, when you engage people who are smarter than you?
> 
> Welcome to the club, SINC!
> 
> The line is long & distinguished, you'll fit right in!


It won't last. As soon as he sees that I have posted in reply to you, he will take it off to see what I said. He can't control it.


----------



## groovetube

Federal Liberals propose crackdown on partisan government ads

It's about time they made this an issue. The cons have not only perfected ads cam but have spent even more on these tax payer funded campaign ads.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Of course you would say that. *
> 
> Besides whether or not if he is a 'liberal hack' or not, it seems Trudeau's full comments were an obvious dig at Harper.
> 
> I think the line about this being 'catnip' for con media is pretty hilarious! And obviously true! :lmao:


Back at ya gt.. see how that works... it is all too easy.

At least I don't laugh at my own jokes before someone else does as you do time and again... 

Why not wait until someone else finds your "jokes" funny before you laugh at them first, otherwise it just seems like amateur hour to me... "

"I will laugh at my own jokes first hoping that someone else will join in..."

I guess some people need a laugh track of their own creation to egg people on...

IMO it seems those were the shows that were really bad and failed time and again.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Federal Liberals propose crackdown on partisan government ads
> 
> It's about time they made this an issue. The cons have not only perfected ads cam but have spent even more on these tax payer funded campaign ads.


Completely ridiculous for anyone who is old enough to remember the ads from the Chretien era... This government has simply taken the previous Lib government playbook and "improved" upon it.

The hypocrisy is palpable. Pure unadulterated hogwash... Where is there a vomiting emoticon when you need one?


----------



## groovetube

Jesus screature, they're smilies. Relaaaaaaaax.

Meaning I find it funny.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Completely ridiculous for anyone who is old enough to remember the ads from the Chretien era... This government has simply taken the previous Lib government playbook and "improved" upon it.
> 
> The hypocrisy is palpable. Pure unadulterated hogwash... Where is there a vomiting emoticon when you need one?


Oh they improved upon it all right!

(Smilie withheld so as to not offend)


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Oh they improved upon it all right!


Agreed.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Jesus screature, they're smilies. Relaaaaaaaax.
> 
> Meaning I find it funny.


Only you would.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> It won't last. As soon as he sees that I have posted in reply to you, he will take it off to see what I said. He can't control it.


From some of his comments, I believe he has taken us all off the ignore list. Either (as you note) his curiosity was killing him or he was tired of being labelled a coward. He just ignores anything posted by 1TG™, "One of Those Guys". Us.


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Flr7JhPow]Hippo gets explosive diarrhea. - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SINC

Jimbo, Skippy and now Stink eh?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Jimbo, Skippy and now Stink eh?


I suspect it's an alter ego created by groove. He doesn't want to openly acknowledge those of us he ignores, is tired of getting his butt handed to him in any even discussion and this is his anonymous way of retaliation. Whoever it is, it's just more telegraphing...


----------



## whatiwant

http://youtu.be/lcHy8xEt2QI


----------



## groovetube

jawknee said:


> Raging Clue (South Park - Hardy Boys) - YouTube


:clap::clap::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

jawknee said:


> Raging Clue (South Park - Hardy Boys) - YouTube


So tell me, jawknee, with this post & the one you delivered in the Help Desk thread calling me a coward for bringing certain groovetube antics to light...are you backing groovetube's lying & name calling?

Just looking to confirm what your position is, 'cause you seem to be supporting him in his endeavours. This is fine by me, it just means that you are placing yourself in the selfsame category as him. You never bothered responding in the other thread, that usually means that the respondent (me) has you dead to rights. Care to comment or are you just going to continue to snipe?


----------



## whatiwant

FeXL said:


> So tell me, jawknee, with this post & the one you delivered in the Help Desk thread calling me a coward for bringing certain groovetube antics to light...are you backing groovetube's lying & name calling?
> 
> Just looking to confirm what your position is, 'cause you seem to be supporting him in his endeavours. This is fine by me, it just means that you are placing yourself in the selfsame category as him. You never bothered responding in the other thread, that usually means that the respondent (me) has you dead to rights. Care to comment or are you just going to continue to snipe?


I haven't actually seen you substantiate any of your claims. Just your "goads" and "snipes". 
In fact, in all of my casual reading, most of the threads are completely fraught with yours (and your "friends") trolling and goading. Maybe there is some "evidence" of your accusations, but I'm not going to go investigate them as it's frankly a waste of time. 

Maybe you should start an "evidence of GT's lies" thread to outline them all in one concise place.


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> I haven't actually seen you substantiate any of your claims. Just your "goads" and "snipes".
> In fact, in all of my casual reading, most of the threads are completely fraught with yours (and your "friends") trolling and goading. Maybe there is some "evidence" of your accusations, but I'm not going to go investigate them as it's frankly a waste of time.
> 
> Maybe you should start an "evidence of GT's lies" thread to outline them all in one concise place.


What you're saying is that you're interested in the response to gt's lies, but not the lies themselves. Fair enough.


----------



## i-rui

i'm not sure what jawknee is saying, but what i'm saying is that regardless of what GT may or may not have said it doesn't warrant the disregard of the other forum members by following him around and derailing every thread on the board.

I'd suggest everyone just ignore each other and move on.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> What you're saying is that you're interested in the response to gt's lies, but not the lies themselves. Fair enough.


No. I'm saying I don't know what it is that he lied about according to you. Thanks.


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> No. I'm saying I don't know what it is that he lied about according to you. Thanks.


You were saying you didn't care--you were not going to investigate. You only wanted people to stop bothering him about it.


----------



## FeXL

jawknee said:


> I haven't actually seen you substantiate any of your claims. Just your "goads" and "snipes".
> In fact, in all of my casual reading, most of the threads are completely fraught with yours (and your "friends") trolling and goading. Maybe there is some "evidence" of your accusations, but I'm not going to go investigate them as it's frankly a waste of time.
> 
> Maybe you should start an "evidence of GT's lies" thread to outline them all in one concise place.


Yet you call me a coward, based on one-half of the story. Thx, I appreciate the fairness & objectivity you have already displayed...

If proof you require, I can furnish links and screenshots. All it takes is the asking.

BTW, I have just one instance of lying & one instance of name-calling on this board. The name-calling post has since been edited (which is a start), but an apology is missing. I have a screenshot of the original, if you like. The misrepresentation of my words this summer, his lie, as of a few days ago is still there in black & white. Still requires an edit & apology.

I can no more control what others post than I can you. My "goads" and "snipes" will pretty much cease when he has taken care of business. Everybody on these boards will be much happier the day that happens, not the least of which is groovetube. He made his bed several months ago. He hasn't slept well since and won't until this is dealt with...


----------



## FeXL

jawknee said:


> No. I'm saying I don't know what it is that he lied about according to you. Thanks.


Then how can you realistically form an opinion?


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> i'm not sure what jawknee is saying, but what i'm saying is that regardless of what GT may or may not have said it doesn't warrant the disregard of the other forum members by following him around and derailing every thread on the board.
> 
> I'd suggest everyone just ignore each other and move on.


Where I grew up, if I broke the neighbour's window I paid to fix the window and apologized to him. If I didn't do both things in a timely fashion, I got my hide tanned for me. Call me old-fashioned but that sense of responsibility has remained with me since then & is the same type of thing I teach my children: Deal with your screw-ups or pay the consequences.

It's also the same kind of behaviour I expect on ehMac and exactly what I expect from groovetube. If you want this to go away, I suggest you whisper in someone's ear that that the time to deal with this is long overdue.

As to your observation about "derailing every thread on the board", my path crosses regularly with his in the Canadian & American Political threads. That is purely coincidental. I don't have the desire, the inclination nor the need to follow him anywhere.


----------



## whatiwant

FeXL said:


> Then how can you realistically form an opinion?


I'm realistically forming an opinion based on you trolling or goading him for "lying" somewhere else in response to unrelated posts. That's what I see.


----------



## i-rui

FeXL said:


> Where I grew up, if I broke the neighbour's window I paid to fix the window and apologized to him. If I didn't do both things in a timely fashion, I got my hide tanned for me. Call me old-fashioned but that sense of responsibility has remained with me since then & is the same type of thing I teach my children: Deal with your screw-ups or pay the consequences.
> 
> It's also the same kind of behaviour I expect on ehMac and exactly what I expect from groovetube. If you want this to go away, I suggest you whisper in someone's ear that that the time to deal with this is long overdue.
> 
> As to your observation about "derailing every thread on the board", my path crosses regularly with his in the Canadian & American Political threads. That is purely coincidental. I don't have the desire, the inclination nor the need to follow him anywhere.


I doubt he broke anyone's window or did any physical property damage. if he did i'd suggest you take it up with the proper authorities.

From what I understand in the previous thread you created you tried to contact the administrators of this forum about your problem with groovetube, And from what i understand they did not see fit to do anything. This tells me the administrators of this forum do not see any validity in your claim of wrongdoing.

Perhaps you can take from this that others do not feel any slight you perceive to be real warrants any action against GT. 

At some point you have to ask yourself does your grudge justify disrupting the discussions on this forum for every other user? How is this fair? 

Move on. it's an internet forum. Life is too short.


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> I doubt he broke anyone's window or did any physical property damage. if he did i'd suggest you take it up with the proper authorities.
> 
> From what I understand in the previous thread you created you tried to contact the administrators of this forum about your problem with groovetube, And from what i understand they did not see fit to do anything. This tells me the administrators of this forum do not see any validity in your claim of wrongdoing.
> 
> Perhaps you can take from this that others do not feel any slight you perceive to be real warrants any action against GT.
> 
> At some point you have to ask yourself does your grudge justify disrupting the discussions on this forum for every other user? How is this fair?
> 
> Move on. it's an internet forum. Life is too short.


Well put.


----------



## FeXL

jawknee said:


> I'm realistically forming an opinion based on you trolling or goading him for "lying" somewhere else in response to unrelated posts. That's what I see.


Again, thank you for your objectivity in examining both sides of the story.

If you are looking for the other side of the story, it starts here at post 1044.

My comment in post 1049 about the attic refers to a comment in post 1027 of the same thread.

The gist of the issue extends to post 1162.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> I doubt he broke anyone's window or did any physical property damage. if he did i'd suggest you take it up with the proper authorities.
> 
> From what I understand in the previous thread you created you tried to contact the administrators of this forum about your problem with groovetube, And from what i understand they did not see fit to do anything. This tells me the administrators of this forum do not see any validity in your claim of wrongdoing.
> 
> Perhaps you can take from this that others do not feel any slight you perceive to be real warrants any action against GT.
> 
> At some point you have to ask yourself does your grudge justify disrupting the discussions on this forum for every other user? How is this fair?
> 
> Move on. it's an internet forum. Life is too short.


exactly. I'm no longer responding, because I, and I think other members are sick of threads being turned into grade 8. I'm guilty of letting it happen and being part of the circus, and I'm sorry to the other members. 

Whether or not they let go of some little grudge from months ago, well that's not something that concerns me. As you said, it's just an internet forum.


----------



## BigDL

Well the bullies are out in full force once again. 

jaw knee your purpose here, is only, to agree with those who insist they are right.

Don't think for a minute, evidence based on facts can count for anything here at Ehmac. 

Everyone knows facts can be used to prove anything.

Repetition is the key here. If a few can repeat the same contentions often enough over a long durations…why then the truth becomes self evident.

Being contrary minded is bad enough but venturing into the area of being fair minded and taking the position of any reasonable person such as i-rui ha...well…well…that's down right unconscionable. 

Who do you people think you are and where get off believing in fair minded reasoned discussion? Where will this kind of behaviour take us?


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> I doubt he broke anyone's window or did any physical property damage. if he did i'd suggest you take it up with the proper authorities.


It's called an analogy. I could just as easily have used a name-calling incident as an example. It changes nothing.



i-rui said:


> From what I understand in the previous thread you created you tried to contact the administrators of this forum about your problem with groovetube, And from what i understand they did not see fit to do anything. This tells me the administrators of this forum do not see any validity in your claim of wrongdoing.


I did contact them, both through reported posts & PM. You are correct, they did nothing about the name calling, which is what I contacted them about. The administrators of this forum are interested in one thing & one thing only: page hits.



i-rui said:


> Perhaps you can take from this that others do not feel any slight you perceive to be real warrants any action against GT.


It's not a slight. The name calling is a personal attack, one that would have gotten him kicked off any forum with moderators. The outstanding issue is clear & twofold: he misrepresented my words, in effect, lying, and he called me what I consider a particularly nasty name. I'm not looking for action against groovetube, that solves nothing unless there is complete expulsion and, in light of the attitude of current administration, will never happen. I'm looking for 2 corrections & 2 public apologies, on these boards. Thus far I have one of 4.



i-rui said:


> At some point you have to ask yourself does your grudge justify disrupting the discussions on this forum for every other user? How is this fair?


It's not a grudge, it's addressing a long time issue. groovetube has used the safety of the internet to lie & call people names. Two things that, in real life, I'm willing to bet would never have happened and, if it did, would have ended in a much different fashion. That is despicable enough on it's own. However, it's only two instances in a years long & highly visible trend on these boards where he accepts culpability for absolutely nothing he posts. It's always someone else's fault & he's always the victim. I'm tired of that. Many others here are tired of that, too. What I have here are two concrete examples of him in deliberate & malicious action. He can't pin these on someone else. He owns them both. He needs to deal with them both. How is it fair that he is the one perpetuating this disruption by failing to deal with it in a timely manner? Again, let's address the cause, not the effect.



i-rui said:


> Move on. it's an internet forum. Life is too short.


Yes, it is a forum. However, life is never too short to not deal with responsibility...


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> blah, blah, blah


Thx, BigDL. That brought a tear to my eye...

Just one observation...



BigDL said:


> Don't think for a minute, evidence based on facts can count for anything here at Ehmac.
> 
> Everyone knows facts can be used to prove anything.


Don't these two statements contradict each other? Jes' askin'...

As to facts, are you so wilfully blind that you can't see both the misrepresentation of my words & the name calling on the screen in front of you? Clear as this post?


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LGgoVxi1iw]Huge Poop Won't Flush - WHO DID THIS??? - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SINC

More good news for Canadians today. Thank goodness for the Conservatives:

Jim Flaherty projects $3.7B surplus for 2015-16 - Politics - CBC News


----------



## i-rui

so most of the projected surplus seems to be coming from selling off assets to the private sector. Does anyone really trust Flaherty doing this? After he (and by extension Ontario) got fleeced in the 407 deal? Same old trick to balance the books for an election year at the cost of everyone's future.

I wouldn't trust Flaherty to balance a pea in a spoon let alone the nation's finances.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> so most of the projected surplus seems to be coming from selling off assets to the private sector. Does anyone really trust Flaherty doing this? After he (and by extension Ontario) got fleeced in the 407 deal? Same old trick to balance the books for an election year at the cost of everyone's future.
> 
> I wouldn't trust Flaherty to balance a pea in a spoon let alone the nation's finances.


Yes, we here in Ontario remember well flaherty's budget balancing tricks! He's just pulling the same federally.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> so most of the projected surplus seems to be coming from selling off assets to the private sector. Does anyone really trust Flaherty doing this? After he (and by extension Ontario) got fleeced in the 407 deal? Same old trick to balance the books for an election year at the cost of everyone's future.
> 
> I wouldn't trust Flaherty to balance a pea in a spoon let alone the nation's finances.


Again, the 407 was not sold. You need to gt that straight. 

Which federal assets are Flaherty selling to balance the budget?


----------



## groovetube

John Ivison: Tax cuts at centre of Stephen Harper’s re-election strategy | National Post

Really. Well I'd say tax cuts to regular hard working middle class is about time. It should have been done -before- they handed massive breaks to corporations, who merely cash hoarded it.

So if someone else gets into power, leave the tax breaks on Canadians alone, just raise the corporate rate since there's a) no evidence whatsoever this creates jobs and is a bunch crap, and b) this was done before (Clinton) and had no holy terror of 'oh my god they're leaving the jobs are going way god help us!!!' effects whatsoever.

Simple.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> so most of the projected surplus seems to be coming from selling off assets to the private sector. Does anyone really trust Flaherty doing this? After he (and by extension Ontario) got fleeced in the 407 deal? Same old trick to balance the books for an election year at the cost of everyone's future.
> 
> I wouldn't trust Flaherty to balance a pea in a spoon let alone the nation's finances.


Hog wash, the sale of assets (which includes the sale of 30 million shares in GM which they *always* said they were going to do after the bailout) is approximately the same as the operating freeze on departmental spending. 

So much for your "most of the projected surplus". Your partisanship does even allow you to read numbers without bias.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Again, the 407 was not sold. You need to gt that straight.
> 
> Which federal assets are Flaherty selling to balance the budget?


the 407 lease is for 99 years. technically you're right, it wan't "sold" but for all practical purposes it has been sold for our lifetime. Who knows what the state of transportation will be in in the 2100s. Will we still even use cars and roads? Will we even have oil left? The term is so long no one can even begin to guess what the future will bring.

The assets the government wants to sell includes GM shares and a Coal facility.



screature said:


> Hog wash, the sale of assets (which includes the sale of 30 million shares in GM which they *always* said they were going to do after the bailout) is approximately the same as the operating freeze on departmental spending.
> 
> So much for your "most of the projected surplus". Your partisanship does even allow you to read numbers without bias.


The projected surplus is $3.7 billion.The sale of those 2 assets should net most of that amount. From Ivison's column :



> The government has already said it plans to sell General Motors shares that would net $2.6-billion and Ridley Terminals, a coal export facility that is reported to be worth $2-billion, so that number is conservative in the extreme.


so roughly valued at $4.6 billion. So actually more than the projected surplus.

IMO assets should only be sold if it's of net benefit to the public, and when they are sold it should be at the highest market value. Which means doing it simply to create a surplus in an election year is politics at their worst.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the 407 lease is for 99 years. technically you're right, it wan't "sold" but for all practical purposes it has been sold for our lifetime. Who knows what the state of transportation will be in in the 2100s. Will we still even use cars and roads? Will we even have oil left? The term is so long no one can even begin to guess what the future will bring.
> 
> The assets the government wants to sell includes GM shares and a Coal facility.
> 
> 
> 
> The projected surplus is $3.7 billion.The sale of those 2 assets should net most of that amount. From Ivison's column :
> 
> 
> 
> so roughly valued at $4.6 billion. So actually more than the projected surplus.
> 
> *IMO assets should only be sold if it's of net benefit to the public, and when they are sold it should be at the highest market value.* Which means doing it simply to create a surplus in an election year is politics at their worst.


Ivision is only looking at one aspect of the equation before you get a surplus you have to get to balance.



> ...The projected savings come from recent measures announced by the federal government such as freezing the employment insurance premium rate and reintroducing an operating freeze on departmental spending, which the government announced in the throne speech.
> 
> The freeze will apply for two years beginning in March 2014. The operating budget freeze is expected to generate savings of approximately $500 million in 2014-15 and $1.1 billion in 2015-16.
> 
> The federal government also updated its fiscal framework to account for revenues resulting from the sale of government assets.
> 
> The government divested its interests in 30 million common shares in General Motors. In addition, the government is expected to sell its assets in Ridley Terminals, a bulk coal terminal in B.C. It is also considering selling the Dominion Coal Blocks, two parcels of Crown land in B.C.
> 
> The potential gain from the sale of these assets is projected at $500 million in 2014-15 and $1.5 billion in 2015-16. The government deems these amounts to be "conservative" estimates.


The sales are happening in the public interest. As already stated the GM sales have been planned for all along. 

As for "being sold at the highest market value", unless you have some crystal ball to tell you when that is you can never know when that will be, so kind of a silly comment... you just want to criticize because that is what you do when it comes to this government regardless of whether the news is bad or good.


----------



## groovetube

Were these GM shares part of the GM 'bailout' that the cons were so against at the time, when there was that election threat scare? If so did they make money?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The sales are happening in the public interest. As already stated the GM sales have been planned for all along.
> 
> As for "being sold at the highest market value", unless you have some crystal ball to tell you when that is you can never know when that will be, so kind of a silly comment... you just want to criticize because that is what you do when it comes to this government regardless of whether the news is bad or good.


The U.S. government has been dumping its shares at a loss this year already. It would be near-impossible to recoup this "investment" at a profit. I support the Canadian government getting whatever it can as soon as it can for that fragile stock.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Were these GM shares part of the GM 'bailout' that the cons were so against at the time, when there was that election threat scare? If so did they make money?


Google is your friend.


----------



## groovetube

thx, but I just thought I'd ask if you knew. (I don't)


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Google is your friend.


I find it shocking that people are willing to pontificate on these matters without even the slightest effort to inform themselves.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The sales are happening in the public interest. As already stated the GM sales have been planned for all along.


the sales are happening because the government is bending over backwards to get a surplus in an election year. If they were not done on a timeline to specifically reach this goal I might have less of a problem with it.

Also as i previously stated, this particular minister of finance has a terrible history with getting fleeced in the value of public assets, robbing ontario of billions of dollars of value. He was an unmitigated disaster in his term under Harris. The history is there for all to see. The public should be aware of his past performance.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *the sales are happening because the government is bending over backwards to get a surplus in an election year*. If they were not done on a timeline to specifically reach this goal I might have less of a problem with it.
> 
> Also as i previously stated, t*his particular minister of finance has a terrible history with getting fleeced in the value of public assets, robbing ontario of billions of dollars of value. He was an unmitigated disaster in his term under Harris. The history is there for all to see. The public should be aware of his past performance*.


The GM sales are happening/happened because they promised they would. Capiche?

Flaherty's current performance, as a much more experienced Federal Finance Minister, clearly negates your statements of his past record, his current record and the accolades he has received is clear evidence of that.

You seem stuck in the past... you may want to try and get over it especially considering that the current state of affairs in Ontario under successive Liberal Finance Ministers.

Oh and BTW in case you aren't aware of it past performance is not necessarily an indicator of present or future performance... Economics 101. 

Times and people change, unless you have a vested interest in believing the opposite, which is clearly untrue based on validated evidence, e.g. just look at Apple now compared to 10 or 15 years ago.

Based on your statement/opinion Apple should have been bankrupt a long time ago now...


----------



## groovetube

The apple analogy is a really bad one. It's not like apple just got smarter, they got steve jobs...

As far as I'm aware, economics 101 isn't about an individual getting smarter.


----------



## Macfury

I've been quite happy with Flaherty, particularly in recent months. Now that the government has been able to ditch the Liberal/NDP-inspired spending spree of the minority government, things are looking up. I can't imaging what a mess we'd be in if Mulcair had veto power at this point--one reason I'm happy with a Harper majority.


----------



## SINC

It's pathetic that people can be so jaded they refuse to recognize a sold financial program and minster. He has done a great job and done so under great personal issues with his own health.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> It's pathetic that people can be so jaded they refuse to recognize a *sold* financial program and minster. He has done a great job and done so under great personal issues with his own health.


Good to see that even Harpo enthusiasts recognize that we have been sold out.


----------



## groovetube

Heh.

Not everyone thinks what this government has done financially is great. There's been some seriously boneheaded moves.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Oh and BTW in case you aren't aware of it past performance is *not necessarily* an indicator of present or future performance... Economics 101.


the key in that phrase is "not necessarily". of course there are never guarantees, but only a fool ignores history.



groovetube said:


> The apple analogy is a really bad one. It's not like apple just got smarter, they got steve jobs...


yes, the apple comparison is silly. they are clearly the exception, not the rule.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Heh.
> 
> Not everyone thinks what this government has done financially is great. There's been some seriously boneheaded moves.


So? There have been some seriously bonehead posts as well.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Enough drifting - let's get back to business!*

I'd love if Byrne gets nailed!

Harper adviser delayed robocall witness interview for legal advice, email shows | canada.com

Go get her caped crusaders.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'd love if Byrne gets nailed!
> 
> Harper adviser delayed robocall witness interview for legal advice, email shows | canada.com
> 
> Go get her caped crusaders.


that whole thing stinks to high heaven.


----------



## screature

Why is it that every time I check in on what is going on in the Political thread gt is the last poster?

I'm not kidding, it happens time and again. It seems gt has an opinion on everything, educated or not, he just can't help himself, he has to post.

It makes me wonder why that is exactly.

And yes gt I know you are going to come up with some reason or another that it is the Government's fault, or you just had to reply to some other ehMac member who isn't of the right "colour" and you couldn't help yourself because you were being attacked, but can't you ever give it a rest?

I mean seriously. Doesn't it ever grow tiresome for you?...

Having to troll the Political thread here over and over again looking to make some negative comment or another?

Seriously, I don't see how it is good for your health.

Please do not reply to this post, see if you can, it might be good for you.


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91LnAZZblzg]Oh....****! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## BigDL

That doesn't matter. Flaherty will sell off public assets off, to private interests, for a song. 

Then Stephen Harper Conservatives can offer "pie in the sky bye and bye" one more time. 

Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government is officially bankrupt of new ideas and policies. 

October 2015 looms ever closer, tick, tick, tick. :clap: :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Why is it that every time I check in on what is going on in the Political thread gt is the last poster?
> 
> I'm not kidding, it happens time and again. It seems gt has an opinion on everything, educated or not, he just can't help himself, he has to post.
> 
> It makes me wonder why that is exactly.
> 
> And yes gt I know you are going to come up with some reason or another that it is the Government's fault, or you just had to reply to some other ehMac member who isn't of the right "colour" and you couldn't help yourself because you were being attacked, but can't you ever give it a rest?
> 
> I mean seriously. Doesn't it ever grow tiresome for you?...
> 
> Having to troll the Political thread here over and over again looking to make some negative comment or another?
> 
> Seriously, I don't see how it is good for your health.
> 
> Please do not reply to this post, see if you can, it might be good for you.


I've noticed the same thing. Not to be cruel, but it's easy when what is being posted is not worth responding to. It's usually a link without context. If you're lucky it might contain some incoherent jackassery and emoticons. If a point is made, it's so mundane and facile and surrounded by so much guffawing and hee-hawing that it becomes a mercy to simply sign off and wait until someone else posts. 

If he isn't posting his pensees, he's posting pictures of feces in toilets. What a life!


----------



## groovetube

Yep. It almost seems insurmountable, to post on topic. Of course that'll get the "usuals" really excited.

Back on topic... 

MacKay outraged over Trudeau

Yeah, because you know students aren't allowed to ask questions and expect an answer! Predictably, the conservatives have framed this as Trudeau "promoting" recreational drug use which is just brainless beyond belief. Of course then McKay went crying to his supporters for donations to help fight this.

What an opportunistic coward.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> That doesn't matter. Flaherty will sell off public assets off, to private interests, for a song.


At what price should he sell them, oh wise one?


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2N648fCQr0]stinky fart - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Yep. It almost seems insurmountable, to post on topic. Of course that'll get the "usuals" really excited.
> 
> Back on topic...
> 
> MacKay outraged over Trudeau
> 
> Yeah, because you know students aren't allowed to ask questions and expect an answer! Predictably, the conservatives have framed this as Trudeau "promoting" recreational drug use which is just brainless beyond belief. Of course then McKay went crying to his supporters for donations to help fight this.
> 
> *What an opportunistic coward.*


That didn't take long now did it?

Same as it ever was...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






For someone purportedly seeking change, you can't seem to change your own ways.

Always the critic without anything constructive to add... 

Do you ever actually think about policy in the affirmative, i.e. what you would support or can all you do is criticize without a counter proposal?


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Always the critic without anything constructive to add...


Indeed. And now with the double identity of Stink to further sully the board?


----------



## i-rui

perhaps he finds conservative tactics extremely negative? why does he have "change his ways"? this is in the canadian political thread, and the post you quoted is relevant.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> perhaps he finds conservative tactics extremely negative? why does he have "change his ways"? this is in the canadian political thread, and the post you quoted is relevant.


Yeah, gt's right. Supporting drug use is always the right thing to do, isn't it? At least the Conservatives have it right taking Trudeau to task for being a user.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *perhaps he finds conservative tactics extremely negative?* why does he have "change his ways"? this is in the canadian political thread, and *the post you quoted is relevant*.


And so if he does what is his alternative...? There never is one. 

He is the one who purports to be the victim here and yet all he does is attack without any counter proposal and suggests that the "rest of us" should change... 

That is why there was the suggestion of change, if he expects it of the "rest of us" why does he think that he should not?

Perhaps, but his comment was not.


----------



## groovetube

Ok, when did this go from the Canadian political thread, to the quest for a fight with groovetube??

Sorry, you're not getting one from me.

Obviously, as I've made clear here several times, I agree with Trudeau's proposal legalizing and regulating pot. Now can we please, get back on topic, and quit with the attempts at a fight.

Thanks.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Ok, when did this go from the Canadian political thread, to the quest for a fight with groovetube??
> 
> Sorry, you're not getting one from me.
> 
> Obviously, as I've made clear here several times, I agree with Trudeau's proposal legalizing and regulating pot. Now can we please, get back on topic, and* quit with the attempts at a fight.*
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, that avatar is a declaration of his love for the NDP, but he will deny that and claim he's right for using it and a victim for being called on it. 

Instead he will continue his support for drug use.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Yeah, gt's right. Supporting drug use is always the right thing to do, isn't it? At least the Conservatives have it right taking Trudeau to task for being a user.


Is that so? Life is a little more nuanced bud.

Sep 19/13 - Scott Reid on Democracy


----------



## BigDL

So when did it become wrong to support and advocate for the legal use of any substance?


----------



## groovetube

He's just looking for a fight like his pal screature 

They don't realize that they are actually the ones who are supporting drug use and gang bangers. I bet they'll be side by side with the gangs who stand to lose billions should the government legalize and regulate, voting conservative to make sure it don't happen.

See that's where they want the conversation to go. Too bad.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> And so if he does what is his alternative...? There never is one.
> 
> He is the one who purports to be the victim here and yet all he does is attack without any counter proposal and suggests that the "rest of us" should change...
> 
> That is why there was the suggestion of change, if he expects it of the "rest of us" why does he think that he should not?
> 
> Perhaps, but his comment was not.


I'm not sure offering "alternatives" is really something that is going to help the discourse around here. 

For instance my "alternative" to the senate finance scandal would be for Harper and the Conservatives to be honest and transparent about everything.

I realize just how wishy washy that statement is, even though I adamantly believe it's what should happen.

I applaud Groovetube for not being goaded into derailing threads with personal attacks on other users. IMO he is actively changing his behaviour to respect the forum.

I'm pretty sure you've said some disparaging comments about Trudeau & Mulcair. I certainly have about Rob Ford and Harper. I don't see the problem with voicing resentment against politicians. This is after all a political thread.

the key is to not attack each other because thats when things go off the rails.




SINC said:


> Yeah, that avatar is a declaration of his love for the NDP, but he will deny that and claim he's right for using it and a victim for being called on it.
> 
> Instead he will continue his support for drug use.


I'm not sure if the avatar is a declaration of love for the NDP, but for arguments sake lets say it is. Why is that a problem? Why shouldn't a user be able to voice their support of the NDP? Why can't he voice his support for legalization or decriminilization of drugs? and if not in the political thread then where?

-----

discussion on this forum has become poisoned. everyone has to ask themselves if they really want a board where everyone agrees with each other or if they want to see differing opinions and perhaps some debate.

I don't agree with most of what MacFury says politically, but i recognize he's a smart guy and i often find his posts entertaining and amusing. Screature and I disagree about virtually everything regarding the Harper government, but agree on most things mac related.

we're never going to *all* agree about everything. it won't happen. but we can all try to respect each other, or at the very least respect the forum. If anyone finds someones posts so offensive the best recourse is to just ignore them. we've already lost a few smart members because of juvenile bickering. if things don't stop we're going to lose more.


----------



## eMacMan

NO! The unwritten invisible rules state you can only support Cons. 

Best way to do this is to: Ignore spiraling debt; Forget all about that relative who came home from Afghanistan in a box so that drug lords could prosper; Say nada when the government retires vets just short of their pensions; Be overjoyed at a $Billion spy palace; Claim the new adscam is somehow more righteous than the old adsam.... 

I know that's just the tip of the iceberg. A true Con has a very tough row to hoe and deserves all the respect we can manage to muster for sticking to it. Or is that to us?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*A little more meat for the robocall scandal*

This ruling should lead to some finger pointing inside the CON machine.

Judge orders release of names of six Tory staffers who allege Sona bragged of robocalls involvement


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Thanks Rona...I think?!?!*

Federal health minister hopes Rob Ford gets help but ‘won’t pass judgment’ | National Newswatch


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Municipal Conservative*

Rob Ford uses drunkenness as excuse for driving drunk | National Newswatch


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Rob Ford uses drunkenness as excuse for driving drunk | National Newswatch


And the crowd goes wild


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Next*

!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Byrne baby Byrne! (disco inferno, or a take off on drill baby drill)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*oh oh Byrne*

Harper adviser delayed robocall witness interview for legal advice, email shows | canada.com


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> For instance my "alternative" to the senate finance scandal would be for Harper and the Conservatives to be honest and transparent about everything.
> 
> I realize just how wishy washy that statement is, even though I adamantly believe it's what should happen.


As wishy washy as that sounds, I agree, too. However, in this day & age I also think it's remarkably naive to think that it'll ever happen, no matter who's at the reins.



i-rui said:


> IMO he is actively changing his behaviour to respect the forum.


This isn't a shot against you so pardon the cynicism but, jeezuz...nearly 11 years and well over 14,000 posts & he's finally changing his behaviour to respectful?

Are you serious? That says more by itself than anything I could possibly add.

______



i-rui said:


> discussion on this forum has become poisoned. everyone has to ask themselves if they really want a board where everyone agrees with each other or if they want to see differing opinions and perhaps some debate.


I don't think anybody here is looking for "yes" people. I'm sure as hell not. We are all individuals and we all have own inimitable way of expressing our disparate opinions. However, without pointing a finger, trying to have a conversation/discussion/debate with some people here is as vapid as one with a valley girl from the 80's. Like, totally...

I've noted it before. I don't care what your opinion is. State it & be able to defend it. Make your point, give some examples, shore your position. That's what contributes to conversation/discussion/debate. It not only makes you more informed because it compels you to do your homework but it informs everyone else who visits the thread, too. Win/win.

Now, go back though groove's last 10 posts on this thread and figger out exactly what he's added to the discussion. Hell, go 20. Ain't gonna change a thing: with the exception of a single, solitary question (which surprised the hell out of a lot of people here, me included), bupkis.

He is the source of more Content Free Posts than anyone on these boards. That is also one of the reasons he is on the receiving end of so much heat here...


----------



## minstrel

screature said:


> Why is it that every time I check in on what is going on in the Political thread gt is the last poster?
> 
> I'm not kidding, it happens time and again.


Why is that a problem? When I tune into the "Third Authoritative GHG" thread, guess who the last poster is ... every time?

I don't find that a problem because I enjoy reading FeXL's opinions and links. I'll bet however, if I disagreed with his position, I might consider leaving a snarky post about it.


----------



## groovetube

Trans-Pacific Partnership Chapter Released By WikiLeaks

Pretty scary how this is all being done in secret.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Trans-Pacific Partnership Chapter Released By WikiLeaks
> 
> Pretty scary how this is all being done in secret.


Sadly negotiations have to be done in secret. It's hard enough to negotiate without everybody having a say on every item.

What is bothersome to me, the negotiators have no mandate.

Who gives direction with regard to what is important.

Many site the Free Trade issue in the 80's with Canadians' acceptance of free trade. Canadians had a very public debate on the issues surrounding free trade at that time. There was an election over the issue of a free trade agreement, the government was given a mandate with direction by Canadians.

Where is the Harper Government's mandate? Where does the Harper Government's direction come from? Do Canadians have a say whether we want this or not?

The answers respectively are: 
NONE;
WHO KNOWS;
NO!


----------



## Macfury

The government of Justin Trudeau must quell your trembling and then revoke this terrible deal!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Trans-Pacific Partnership Chapter Released By WikiLeaks
> 
> Pretty scary how this is *all being done in secret.*


So if it is all being done in secret how is it that we know about it? Doesn't seem to be too of a secret after all...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Sadly negotiations have to be done in secret. It's hard enough to negotiate without everybody having a say on every item.
> 
> What is bothersome to me, the negotiators have no mandate.
> 
> Who gives direction with regard to what is important.
> 
> Many site the Free Trade issue in the 80's with Canadians' acceptance of free trade. Canadians had a very public debate on the issues surrounding free trade at that time. There was an election over the issue of a free trade agreement, the government was given a mandate with direction by Canadians.
> 
> Where is the Harper Government's mandate? Where does the Harper Government's direction come from? Do Canadians have a say whether we want this or not?
> 
> The answers respectively are:
> NONE;
> WHO KNOWS;
> NO!


Well the majority of those who do know anything about the deal at all (which is not the average Canadian) are in favor of it and even the "average " Canadian (who doesn't have a clue about the deal one way or the other) is in favor of the deal so all your ultimately rhetorical questions are moot.

Also just to add, your memory of NAFTA and the negotiations surrounding it is selective at best, more like "made up", to suit your fairy tale.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> So if it is all being done in secret how is it that we know about it? Doesn't seem to be too of a secret after all...


Read the article.

Wikileaks.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So if it is all being done in secret how is it that we know about it? Doesn't seem to be too of a secret after all...


It's just the conspiracy theory stuff that the masses eat up like candy. Since they're so ill-informed, the moment they hear about it they assume it has been kept a secret from them. The term "low-information voter" fits them like a glove.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Read the article.
> 
> Wikileaks.


Such good advise will come to not.

By all means let's divert discussion from the fact, Canadians have not given the Harper Strong, Stable Majority, Conservative Government any mandate to seek or the basis to find any Free Trade Agreements.

Secrets or no secrets.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Such good advise will come to not.
> 
> By all means let's divert discussion from the fact, Canadians have not given the Harper Strong, Stable Majority, Conservative Government any mandate to seek or the basis to find any Free Trade Agreements.
> 
> Secrets or no secrets.


This is just the talk of someone whose party lost the election. Parties don't run on a "mandate" for every likelihood of your entire term of office. In Canada, winning a majority government is the key to enacting those bits of business you want to enact.

It's tough to eat those sour grapes, but Harper has every right to negotiate this trade agreement.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> This is just the talk of someone whose party lost the election. Parties don't run on a "mandate" for every likelihood of your entire term of office. In Canada, winning a majority government is the key to enacting those bits of business you want to enact.
> 
> It's tough to eat those sour grapes, but Harper has every right to negotiate this trade agreement.


The worst part about it is when people are stuck like a broken record and use the same old made up names over and over and over and over. That gets tiresome and clearly demonstrates little more than a lack of maturity.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> Read the article.
> 
> Wikileaks.


it seems Canada is trying to push back against the corporately controlled US demands, and this is where public knowledge becomes so very important. It'll be easier for our (and other country's) governments to stand up to the corporate agenda is the populace is aware of what is being proposed. indeed if enough people voice their concerns it would be impossible for governments to ignore them. this is where a group like wikileaks becomes invaluable.

thank god for wikileaks!


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it seems Canada is trying to push back against the corporately controlled US demands, and this is where public knowledge becomes so very important. It'll be easier for our (and other country's) governments to stand up to the corporate agenda is the populace is aware of what is being proposed. indeed if enough people voice their concerns it would be impossible for governments to ignore them. this is where a group like wikileaks becomes invaluable.


I have no problem with wikileaks in general. However, whether revealing the points of secret negotiations serves the aims of the Canadian negotiators on our behalf remains to be seen.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> it seems Canada is trying to push back against the corporately controlled US demands, and this is where public knowledge becomes so very important. It'll be easier for our (and other country's) governments to stand up to the corporate agenda is the populace is aware of what is being proposed. indeed if enough people voice their concerns it would be impossible for governments to ignore them. this is where a group like wikileaks becomes invaluable.
> 
> thank god for wikileaks!


Exactly. I don't know how anyone can justify our government negotiating in secret, at all.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> it seems Canada is trying to push back against the corporately controlled US demands, and this is where public knowledge becomes so very important. It'll be easier for our (and other country's) governments to stand up to the corporate agenda is the populace is aware of what is being proposed. indeed if enough people voice their concerns it would be impossible for governments to ignore them. this is where a group like wikileaks becomes invaluable.
> 
> thank god for wikileaks!


The trouble with people who think like this, is that if enough people were given the opportunity to express their 'concerns' nothing would ever get done. You simply cannot please all of the people all of the time and those that believe this to be true are delusional. This is normal procedure for most Canadian governments over the past five decades.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The trouble with people who think like this, is that if enough people were given the opportunity to express their 'concerns' nothing would ever get done. You simply cannot please all of the people all of the time and those that believe this to be true are delusional. This is normal procedure for most Canadian governments over the past five decades.


Negotiations are largely conducted in seclusion as well. How can you publicly reveal all of your aims when you're playing poker with the other negotiators at the table?


----------



## groovetube

Harper government

Oh dear. Here we go again!


----------



## groovetube

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair says Mayor Rob Ford scandal rubbing off on prime minister, other Conservatives | CTV News

Watched an interview with Peter McKay last night, it makes me chuckle at watching conservatives just squirming on this thing. 

Forst McKay came down HARD on Trudeau for answering that question at the school he was speaking at, no mention of the part where he warned about drug use and it's dangers of course, not much response to one of their own conservative MPs doing something similar, but when it came to Rob Ford, he suddenly clammed up with, 'it sets a poor example'. Really,? That's it? LOL

Watching the anti drug crowd getting their panties in a bunch at the mere suggestion of regulated pot, but openly supporting a drunk driving crack smoking mayor, is about as hilarious as this gets.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Harper government
> 
> Oh dear. Here we go again!


Pretty much par for the course for any government. You simply cannot do a competent estimate without doing the all of the homework and for projects like shipbuilding, where the designs are prototypes based on wish lists, preliminary estimates would have a fairly major stretch to even qualify as guess work.

On top of this, while Libs and Cons alike have been claiming almost zero inflation, anyone that tracks their expenses can tell you that number is a lie. True inflation is closer to the 5-10% per annum range, especially when we are talking about any sort of building materials. 

When the banksters finally decide the US government has to be reined in, interest rates will go up and inflation will become a good deal higher. Expect another big bankster heist when that happens as the big boys are still leveraged out at around 100:1, and they have quietly persuaded Congress to drop the road blocks for any future heists.


----------



## Dr.G.

Harvard students stumped on Canada's capital - Your Community

Shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I learned this in grade four.


----------



## rondini

Dr. G. did you learn what the US capital was in Grade 4?


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Harvard students stumped on Canada's capital - Your Community
> 
> Shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I learned this in grade four.


I wonder how many Harvard students could name the capitols of Washington State, Kansas, or either of the Dakotas.


----------



## Dr.G.

rondini said:


> Dr. G. did you learn what the US capital was in Grade 4?


No, learned that in K. 

Grade four social studies, back then, had us look at NYC, New York State, and the other 47 states (Alaska was not admitted as the 49th state of the U.S. until January, 1959). We also had a full month on Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I wonder how many Harvard students could name the capitols of Washington State, Kansas, or either of the Dakotas.


Do you mean the capitals of these states, or the capitol building of each of these states? I know that a few states call their capitols the Statehouse, but the other 47 merely call it the Capitol.

The great trivia question we learned in grade four was "How many states are there in the US?" The answer, back then was 44 states and four Commonwealths.


----------



## rondini

Dr.G. said:


> Do you mean the capitals of these states, or the capitol building of each of these states? I know that a few states call their capitols the Statehouse, but the other 47 merely call it the Capitol.
> 
> The great trivia question we learned in grade four was "How many states are there in the US?" The answer, back then was 44 states and four Commonwealths.


Wow, you be old. At least the answer wasn't 13!!


----------



## Dr.G.

rondini said:


> Wow, you be old. At least the answer wasn't 13!!


Well, back in grade four we had to learn the order of the 13 original states based upon when they were admitted to the union (e.g., from Delaware in 1781 to Rhode Island in 1790).

Of course, back then, we had to write on slates and learned our "three r's" by candlelight. Had to walk 13 miles to and from school in those days .............. with no shoes worn until we entered the school house. We had a school marm who rang a big bell to get us to come into class. I had to stoke the Franklin stove when I was in K. Those were the days. It was only when I had already graduated from public school that they paved the road in front of my school.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Do you mean the capitals of these states, or the capitol building of each of these states? I know that a few states call their capitols the Statehouse, but the other 47 merely call it the Capitol.
> 
> The great trivia question we learned in grade four was "How many states are there in the US?" The answer, back then was 44 states and four Commonwealths.


When I was in the eighth grade in 1958 I won a Rotary Club Social Studies scholarship of $5.00 when I was able to name from memory, all 48 states and the capitol of each of those states. (Hawaii and Alaska were added in 1959, BTW.)


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> When I was in the eighth grade in 1958 I won a Rotary Club Social Studies scholarship of $5.00 when I was able to name from memory, all 48 states and the capitol of each of those states. (Hawaii and Alaska were added in 1959, BTW.)


Cool. Kudos, Sinc. :clap::clap::clap: I would be hard pressed to name the capitals of all 50 states today. 

Alaska and Hawaii were admitted to the US in 1959, so many of us were in school before they were admitted. Same holds true for some here in Canada when Newfoundland was admitted into Confederation in 1949.


----------



## eMacMan

I guess since Pennsylvania shares a small stretch of border with Ontario this is a bit closer to on-topic than some posts. 

I am pretty sure PA is one of those four Commonwealth states yet they also have Penn State University. Maybe theyy just did not want their university referred to as PU or worse yet UP.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I guess since Pennsylvania shares a small stretch of border with Ontario this is a bit closer to on-topic than some posts.
> 
> I am pretty sure PA is one of those four Commonwealth states yet they also have Penn State University. Maybe theyy just did not want their university referred to as PU or worse yet UP.


Yes, the four states that are commonwealth states are Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. 

PU???? :lmao: Yes, there is the University of Pennsylvania along with Penn. State Univ.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Another tidbit for the robocall scandal*

Back to business - Records show Sona on a beach when Conservatives claim he confessed to robocalls | iPolitics

Not sure what this means but not setting your storyline with plausible dates may cause troubles for the coverup.

Arthur Hamilton is starting to get a lot of press lately.


----------



## Macfury

Is _that_ the hill you want to die on, kangaroo? Must be a slow day for you on the lefty news aggregator.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hardly. The news, regardless of ideological bent, is filled with Harper bud, Rob Ford news. Meanwhile, more information continues to surface in the robocall scandal and we should be getting more from the PMO scandal this week too. All is good.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hardly. The news, regardless of ideological bent, is filled with Harper bud, Rob Ford news. Meanwhile, more information continues to surface in the robocall scandal and we should be getting more from the PMO scandal this week too. All is good.


If you change the filter on the agrregator, you'll get a different story.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

My filter says we should make sure we do not reward the current group of incompetents and law breakers with another majority govt.


----------



## groovetube

Well at least it's admitted to having a filter. That explains everything.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> My filter says we should make sure we do not reward the current group of incompetents and law breakers with another majority govt.


I say, reward them with another one, as only JT and Mulcair wait in the wings.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I say, reward them with another one, as only JT and Mulcair wait in the wings.


Spoken like a member of the 30% base club.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Spoken like a member of the 30% base club.


The tail that wags the ugly dog.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The tail that wags the ugly dog.


Still, the quick brown dog jumps over the lazy stick ............... Voters of all political stripes should heed the warning "Caveat emptor". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

One wonders what is behind the conservative Quebec separatist owner for providing the venue on sun news in the first place. 

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/x/article15511486/?service=mobile


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Answer to my own question. The Billes' family (Canadian tire) pulled their ads.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So much for separatist values M. Peladeau.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh oh. Looks like an attack ad from a non conservative entity. What is the world coming to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGdGQzGoKJc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=kGdGQzGoKJc&app=desktop


----------



## whatiwant

Hehe. That's pretty funny.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Great news on the PMO scandal*

News should be filled out later today but Nigel Wright told the RCMP Harper knew about his personal payment to Duffy. Nothing in writing though. It will be great if this goes to trial.
Both Wright and Duffy are being investigated for criminal offenses by the RCMP.
Here's a key part of the document.


----------



## rondini

If Harper did not know of the payment, he is a supremely ineffective and clueless leader. Plausible deniability still needs to be somewhat plausible. This is more like Implausible deniability.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

All this mess for Mike Duffy. Imagine.


----------



## groovetube

They need these allegations or possible charges to go away quickly and quietly. I can't image Wright is going to want to take a criminal conviction and the punishments (if any) to go with it sitting down.

This could, get interesting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's another tidbit on Harper being informed.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> News should be filled out later today but Nigel Wright told the RCMP Harper knew about his personal payment to Duffy. Nothing in writing though. It will be great if this goes to trial.
> Both Wright and Duffy are being investigated for criminal offenses by the RCMP.
> Here's a key part of the document.


What this says is that the PM was broadly aware that Wright was getting Duffy to pay... the rest is your reading into things... here is what Wright (and the documents) actually said to the RCMP:

Nigel Wright broke the law by cutting Duffy $90,000 cheque, police allege



> OTTAWA - Prime Minister Stephen Harper's former chief of staff is facing fresh allegations he broke the law by cutting a $90,000 cheque to Sen. Mike Duffy.
> 
> But Nigel Wright is fighting back with a statement that insists he was only acting in the best interests of taxpayers and that he did nothing wrong.
> 
> A new information to obtain a production order by RCMP Cpl. Greg Horton says Nigel Wright "did, without the consent in writing of the head of the branch of government, pay a reward or confer an advantage or benefit on Mike Duffy."
> 
> Horton also says Wright and Duffy "did commit breach of trust in connection with the duties of their offices," contrary to a section of the Criminal Code.
> *
> The documents also indicate Wright told the Mounties that Harper was unaware of his decision to personally pay back Duffy's ineligible expense claims.*
> 
> In a statement issued today by his lawyer, Peter Mantas, Wright denies all wrongdoing.
> 
> "My intention was always to secure repayment of funds owed to taxpayers," the statement reads.
> 
> "I acted within the scope of my duties and remain confident that my actions were lawful. I have no further comment at this time."
> 
> Horton also says between Feb. 6 and Mar. 28, Wright "did directly or indirectly corruptly give or offer to a member of Parliament for the benefit of that person, any money, valuable consideration, or office in respect of anything done or omitted, or to be done or omitted by him in his official capacity," again contrary to the Criminal Code.
> 
> The documents also reveal Horton is seeking emails sent or received between Jan. 1 and May 13 for senators David Tkachuk, Marjory LeBreton, Carolyn Stewart Olsen and Duffy.
> 
> The document was filed in court today in Ottawa. It's the first time the RCMP has accused Wright of any criminal acts.
> 
> On Tuesday, Harper told the House of Commons that Wright was under investigation by the RCMP, but said he wasn't aware of the Prime Minister's Office being under investigation.
> 
> The Mounties had declined to confirm or deny that Wright was under investigation.
> 
> The court documents also shed some light on what led Wright to cover Duffy's expenses.
> 
> During a July 18 interview, Wright told Horton and another RCMP officer that he first thought there might be a problem with Senate expense claims when he saw a media report on Feb. 5 that Duffy had applied for a P.E.I. health card.
> 
> Wright says he called Tkachuk the next day to get his take on the situation. Following that conversation, Wright says he told his staff there may be an issue.
> 
> Wright says he called Duffy on Feb. 7. The senator was upset that a Senate committee was referring his expense claims to an external audit by the firm Deloitte. They spoke again on Feb. 11, and Wright says he assured Duffy that he wouldn't lose his Senate seat if he did not claim P.E.I. as his primary residence. Wright says Duffy told him that he spends most of his time in Ottawa, partly for medical reasons.
> 
> "Mr. Wright then told Sen. Duffy that if he primarily lives in Ottawa, then he morally should not be claiming his Ottawa residence as a secondary residence, and was therefore not entitled to the allowance he had been claiming," Horton wrote.
> 
> "Mr. Wright told him he should pay the money back."
> 
> Wright told investigators he believed Duffy would repay the expenses at that time.
> 
> Wright says he stepped in when he saw Duffy approach Harper following a Feb. 13 caucus meeting. Duffy was defending his expense claims and Wright says he "took the opposite position." Wright says Harper listened to both men speak before telling Duffy the public wouldn't "expect or accept such claims." Wright says he again left the discussion believing Duffy would repay the expenses.
> 
> Wright says Duffy told him on Feb. 19 that he didn't have the money to pay back the expenses.
> 
> Wright says he called Conservative Sen. Irving Gerstein, chair of the Conservative Fund, on Feb. 22 to ask if the fund would repay what he thought was only $32,000 plus interest. Wright says Gerstein agreed to do so.
> 
> That was until Tkachuk calculated that Duffy actually owed $90,000. Wright says Gerstein refused to cover that amount, without explaining why.
> 
> Wright told the RCMP he was "angered" that Duffy owed so much money.
> 
> Wright says he spoke to Janice Payne, Duffy's lawyer, for the first and only time on Mar. 22, at which point he decided to pay back the money himself.
> 
> "Mr. Wright explained that he is financially comfortable, having been successful in the private sector prior to agreeing to work within the PMO," the court document says.
> 
> Wright says he did not file any expense claims while working in the PMO, and estimated he was out of pocket for "tens of thousands of dollars" as a result.
> 
> *Wright says he told Gerstein and Chris Woodcock, then the PMO's director of issues management, of his decision to repay Duffy's expenses. Duffy says he did not tell Harper of his decision.*
> 
> The Senate recently voted to suspend Duffy and senators Pamela Wallin and Patrick Brazeau over the expense controversy.


Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

At this stage I'm happy with the PMO scandal. It's great to see tidbits of emails implying, if not, implicating Harper's knowledge of the deal, and his approval. The more that surface the merrier.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> At this stage I'm happy with the PMO scandal. It's great to see tidbits of emails implying, if not, implicating Harper's knowledge of the deal, and his approval. The more that surface the merrier.


exactly. It's a win win here, either Harper is incompetent, or, he's a crook.

But really, given Harper's tight control from the top, who is going to believe he didn't know? (besides his most trusting supporters)


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> At this stage I'm happy with the PMO scandal. It's great to see tidbits of emails implying, if not, implicating Harper's knowledge of the deal, and his approval. The more that surface the merrier.





groovetube said:


> exactly. It's a win win here, either Harper is incompetent, or, *he's a crook*.
> 
> But really, given Harper's tight control from the top, who is going to believe he didn't know? (besides his most trusting supporters)


Seems you guys didn't read page 72 of the report where the PM is completely exonerated where the RCMP investigator states "I am not aware of any evidence that the PM was involved in repayment/reimbursement of money to Senator Duffy or his lawyer"... I know that is disappointing to you both but he is very clear.

"Incompetent" because a plan was concocted and conducted behind his back?
I guess in your book a spouse that gets cheated on is an "incompetent" spouse because they didn't know they were being cheated on. 

"A crook?" Where the hell do you get that idea from? Totally ludicrous. 2x


----------



## groovetube

Harper, is not a spouse cheated on. Far from it.

And it's simply, he wasnt aware if any evidence that Harper knew. And that may well be the end result.

But I don't buy it. And nor would you if he were a liberal.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Seems you guys didn't read page 72 of the report where the PM is *completely exonerated* where the RCMP investigator states "I am not aware of any evidence that the PM was involved in repayment/reimbursement of money to Senator Duffy or his lawyer"... I know that is disappointing to you both but he is very clear.


that doesn't exonerate him, it simply establishes that at this time the RCMP investigator is not aware of any evidence that involves him. That could change as the investigation (and possible trials) is ongoing.


----------



## groovetube

You can't prove it! Seems to equal innocent.

Ford supporters found this out the hard way.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Seems you guys didn't read page 72 of the report where the PM is completely exonerated where the RCMP investigator states "I am not aware of any evidence that the PM was involved in repayment/reimbursement of money to Senator Duffy or his lawyer"... I know that is disappointing to you both but he is very clear.
> 
> "Incompetent" because a plan was concocted and conducted behind his back?
> I guess in your book a spouse that gets cheated on is an "incompetent" spouse because they didn't know they were being cheated on.
> 
> "A crook?" Where the hell do you get that idea from? Totally ludicrous. 2x


Three words: Low information voters.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> You can't prove it! Seems to equal innocent.


By law, until such evidence proves otherwise, he is innocent...

What world do you live in, where suspicion equals guilt?

Is that a groovetube thing or a progressive thing?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *You can't prove it! Seems to equal innocent.*
> 
> Ford supporters found this out the hard way.


Actually in our judicial system these are equal statements... except for those who seem to think that they know better simply because of their own personal biases.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> By law, until such evidence proves otherwise, he is innocent...
> 
> What world do you live in, where suspicion equals guilt?
> 
> Is that a groovetube thing or a progressive thing?


It's a gt thing and a "progressive" thing, clearly... based on the less than stellar performance of both the NDP and Libs during QP... It seems none of them read page 72 or they did and they would just rather ignore it because it doesn't jive with their TPs.

They were shot down like a bunch of sitting ducks. I really enjoyed QP today watching Mulcair, Trudeau, et. al. getting shot down by the very document they thought was the smoking gun... Good fun.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> It's a gt thing and a "progressive" thing.


Always goes personal. Big surprise.

It's my opinion screature, like it, or not. I'm certainly not alone in that by a long shot, so no, it isn't a "GT" thing. Don't be drawn into these usual's personal crap, keep it on topic.

Thanks.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Actually in our judicial system these are equal statements... except for those who seem to think that they know better simply because of their own personal biases.


well, to be exact it is the presumption of innocence that absolutely needs to be respected in our judicial system (and it has in this case), but that is very different than the court of public opinion of which GT is part of.

but your original phrase was that page 72 "exonerated" the PM, which it did not as that would require proof of innocence, rather than the absence of proof of guilt.


----------



## groovetube

It is interesting to note, that during the adscam inquiry, many of the tories here expressed how they wanted to see much of the liberal party MPs all jailed.

No presumption of innocence there. I'm quite well aware that in the eyes of the law, they are presumed innocent until evidence and a conviction says otherwise. As i-rui said, it still doesn't change my opinion that Harper knew far more than he's saying.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> well, to be exact it is the presumption of innocence that absolutely needs to be respected in out judicial system (and it has in this case), but that is very different than the court of public opinion of which GT is part of.
> 
> but your original phrase was that page 72 "exonerated" the PM, which it did not as that would require proof of innocence, rather than the absence of proof of guilt.


The report says the RCM Police officer Horton could find no evidence that indicated that Stephen Harper knew of the details of the plan.

With a strategy of plausible deniability or willful blindness, constructed for Stephen Harper, no one would leave a trail to the desk of Stephen Harper. 

The lack of "hard" evidence does not exonerate anyone especially Stephen Harper in this matter.

Too many (at least 12) people in the PMO/Conservative Party including Stephen Harper's lawyer knew of the plan and did not inform Stephen Harper? Why didn't any of these people follow their fiduciary responsibility to inform Stephen Harper of the skulduggery?

Wright acting alone? I think that train has left the station is heading for the derail.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> *well, to be exact it is the presumption of innocence that absolutely needs to be respected in our judicial system (and it has in this case), but that is very different than the court of public opinion of which GT is part of.*
> 
> but your original phrase was that page 72 "exonerated" the PM, which it did not as* that would require proof of innocence, rather than the absence of proof of guilt.*


Errr, I think that is what I have been talking about all along.

Do you really believe that clap trap???? 

All that is needed in our judicial system is reasonable doubt of guilt to be considered not guilty... absence of proof of guilt is what our judicial system is based upon. 

I am quite shocked at your post as it belies a basic ignorance (actually I doubt that, more like just a blatant desire to ignore our laws to try and support your own personal political proclivities, just like both the NDP and Libs are doing now) of our judicial system and how it works, coming from someone who usually seems to think of himself as being informed on such matters.

However you choose to spin it i-rui, however you choose to spin it...

You and your ilk have always ended up in the position of spin through this whole affair and when faced with the fact that an experienced RCMP investigator who you were so hopefully wishing could come up with an indictment of the PM couldn't do so, all you are left with is FUD.

But then again that is all you had in the first place...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It is interesting to note, that during the adscam inquiry, *many of the tories here expressed how they wanted to see much of the liberal party MPs all jailed.*
> 
> No presumption of innocence there. I'm quite well aware that in the eyes of the law, they are presumed innocent until evidence and a conviction says otherwise. As i-rui said, it still doesn't change my opinion that Harper knew far more than he's saying.


I don't know who the *many* are that you are talking about are as I was not even here during Adscam but...

How many is "many"? One... Two? 

Please support your claim by citing the names of actual members here who are now talking about this subject that were actively talking about Adscam at that time.

IMO "many" should definitely be more than 3 and they should definitely have been posting here during Adscam for your statement to be true.


----------



## groovetube

"you and your ilk" oh come on Screature. I realize you disagree, saying why is good enough. Yes it was more than three, but I'm not interesting in this silly little spitting match of whether it's 3, 5 or 10.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> "you and your ilk" oh come on Screature. I realize you disagree, saying why is good enough. Yes it was more than three, but I'm not interesting in this silly little spitting match of whether it's 3, 5 or 10.


C'mon that is what your "Glorious Leader"(s) are looking for after all isn't it.. just name names. 

Oh I see what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander... kind of what I thought.

Selective reasoning.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> "you and your ilk" oh come on Screature. I realize you disagree, saying why is good enough. Yes it was more than three, but I'm not interesting in this silly little spitting match of whether it's 3, 5 or 10.





screature said:


> C'mon that is what your "Glorious Leader"(s) are looking for after all isn't it.. just name names.
> 
> Oh I see what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander... kind of what I thought.
> 
> Selective reasoning.


That is because he never backs up his 'always right, I'm the victim' opinions. (I can state that I was one who objected to Adscam back then and likely advocated penalties for those involved.) But I tire of his constant nitpicking as he has continued to do all day long here with more snipes at parties or leaders or 'cons' and nothing close to fact, it's pure trolling to incite reaction. It's all misinformation based on his particular jaded impressions of politics.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> C'mon that is what your "Glorious Leader"(s) are looking for after all isn't it.. just name names.
> 
> Oh I see what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander... kind of what I thought.
> 
> Selective reasoning.


Jeez Screature, stand down. It's really not that important.

This is like catnip for the derailers.

Back on topic...



> “Let this small group be under no illusion,” warned Wright. “I think that this is going to end badly.”


Well he certainly got that part right...


----------



## whatiwant

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/..._apples_in_the_conservative_barrel_hbert.html


----------



## groovetube

jawknee said:


> There may be more than a couple of bad apples in the Conservative barrel: Hébert | Toronto Star


ouch, and ouch...




> There’s more: only a few weeks ago, Irving Gerstein — the senator who oversees the Conservative war chest — told a party convention that he never considered using party funds to reimburse Duffy’s housing allowance on his behalf.
> *The RCMP evidence again says otherwise.* Emails suggest that Gerstein was willing to bail Duffy out until it came to light that he owed three times more money than had initially been estimated.


and...



> But perhaps the most politically damaging feature of Wednesday’s filing is the suggestion that Harper — even as the RCMP says it has found no evidence that he had a hand in the scheme itself — *was more in the loop of things than he has let on to date.*
> 
> According to Wright’s correspondence, for instance, he initially sought and obtained Harper’s approval to reimburse Duffy’s expenses at the time when he was negotiating a reimbursement out of Conservative party funds.
> 
> If was only after that arrangement fell through that Wright decided to clear Duffy’s expense slate with his own money. “The PM knows, in broad terms only, that I personally assisted Duffy when I was getting him to agree to repay the expenses,” Wright testified about that aspect of the case last May


And I'm being practically shot at here for being of the opinion Harper knew more than he's saying?

Yeah. Sure.


----------



## SINC

Today's troll report:



groovetube said:


> Always goes personal. Big surprise.





groovetube said:


> It is interesting to note, that during the adscam inquiry, many of the tories here expressed how they wanted to see much of the liberal party MPs all jailed.





groovetube said:


> Yes it was more than three, but I'm not interesting in this silly little spitting match of whether it's 3, 5 or 10.





groovetube said:


> It's really not that important.
> 
> This is like catnip for the derailers.





groovetube said:


> ooooh kay, I'll just let the threadcrapping and attacks go for now, perhaps tomorrow morning the rest of us can get back on topic after all this done.


----------



## groovetube

ooooh kay, I'll just let the threadcrapping and attacks go for now, perhaps tomorrow morning the rest of us can get back on topic after all this done.


----------



## Macfury

Get BACK on topic? I think he means, get back to trolling without interruption.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> It is interesting to note, that during the adscam inquiry, many of the tories here expressed how they wanted to see much of the liberal party MPs all jailed.


Got a few names to shore your position or are you just talking to hear yourself speak? If there's that many "tories" expressing that opinion, must be pretty easy to find just one of them...


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Yes it was more than three, but I'm not interesting in this silly little spitting match of whether it's 3, 5 or 10.


You made the point. Defend it.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Always goes personal. Big surprise.
> 
> It's my opinion screature, like it, or not. I'm certainly not alone in that by a long shot, so no, it isn't a "GT" thing. Don't be drawn into these usual's personal crap, keep it on topic.
> 
> Thanks.


gt you made the comment that was not consistent with the laws of the land, so yes to that extent it was personal, because you made the statement and the basic thrust of your premise is the same as that of the opposition so it was merely a statement of observation that your and the opposition's positions are essentially the same... something you have routinely criticized me for when the shoe was on the opposite foot.

Criticism is a double edged sword, don't wield it if you aren't willing to accept the fact that when you do, you may end up being the one who gets cut.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

jawknee said:


> There may be more than a couple of bad apples in the Conservative barrel: Hébert | Toronto Star


Another excellent piece from the grande dame of Canadian political journalism. It's rare she releases an article so quickly following the release of the ITO disclosing more fodder and possible evidence into the PMO scandal and Senate coverup. I can't wait for tonight's At Issue panel.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper hanging on a thread*

Andrew Coyne gets to the point -

Stephen Harper and PMO’s reputation hangs by rapidly fraying thread | canada.com


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Bravo Harper*

Just an incredible ITO. The CON infighting emails disclosed for all to see. The coverup for Duffy and the cleansing of an audit by senior CONS. The emails stating that Harper was briefed about deal # 1 and covering Duffy with party funding (Just before his costs tripled). The email stating Harper was "broadly informed".

The RCMP is not satisfied that all the documents have been released. In particular the email account of Harper lawyer Ben Perrin has been deleted. The RCMP has now asked for access to the email server to look into the archives.

All this for Mike Duffy? I still don't get it but you have to take these gifts now and then.

On top of that it looks like LeBreton's assistant Montgomery is the only one to object to the illegalities. He might be the source of the leak to Fife.

Harper refusing to take responsibilty for any of this says it all - the accountability guy is nothing but a sham persona. 

All in all a good day for the Harper government to out do their fishing buddy friend Rob Ford from stealing all the headlines. Bravo Steve!:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Nice CBC TV piece*

RCMP question credibility of 3 Tory senators in Duffy deal - Politics - CBC News

I'm placing a bet that LeBreton will be put out to pasture some time soon. She still maintains the stench of her close relationship to Brian "I'll take the cash for $300k" Mulroney and now the reek of the Harper government's PMO scandal should help take a toll on her.

Good riddance. More to come.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*A good laugh - Rick Mercer on Trudeau - and Harper*

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COgpHTeNFR8[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

If you present the same news using enough aggregated news links, you would think the peasants were at the gates with torches. I think Mulcair should run on this platform: "Did Nigel Wright resign or was he fired?" That will strike a chotd with Canadians!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> If you present the same news using enough aggregated news links, you would think the peasants were at the gates with torches. I think Mulcair should run on this platform: "Did Nigel Wright resign or was he fired?" That will strike a chotd with Canadians!


Bad advice. He doesn't have to run on that particular truth adjustment because there are so many better examples to use and the pile keeps growing. Too bad we have to wait 2 years.


----------



## groovetube

the clock is ticking, it just doesn't look good on the PM as his phoney story starts to unravel. Laments of 'it's only 90k' can now be heard through the comments of news articles, the realization is even hitting conservatives, who are putting two and two together.

But they just don't see the stink at the top, the coverup attempts, this really stinks.


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bad advice. He doesn't have to run on that particular truth adjustment because there are so many better examples to use and the pile keeps growing. Too bad we have to wait 2 years.


With Harpo as with all politicians actions speak louder than words. At this point it is only his words saying he will call a 2015 election. 

If things continue to deteriorate I would expect his actions to say 2016.

BTW if the Cons do indeed sign a FATCA IGA, you can bet the farm that any Canadian citizen with American ties will be voting ABCon in that election. Even though they are a fairly small minority this could really hurt the man as most Americans see Harper as a bit left of Obushma and would otherwise be voting for Harper. Since a lot of them live in the TO or Alberta areas, and they will almost certainly have a much larger percentage turnout than those not impacted, a block anti-Con vote from this group could be death knell for Harper.

You can also bet the Cons will sign, as the pressure from their financial community buds is almost sure to outweigh the rights of a mere 1 million (or more) Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

I don't know that that group is significant enough to have much of an impact, but I think the red tories, the centrists, the swing vote, should things get worse for Harper will prove to be not so kind.

It's that vote, that put him into a majority.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> the clock is ticking, it just doesn't look good on the PM as his phoney story starts to unravel. Laments of 'it's only 90k' can now be heard through the comments of news articles, the realization is even hitting conservatives, who are putting two and two together.
> 
> But they just don't see the stink at the top, the coverup attempts, this really stinks.


The RCMP report indicates otherwise:



> 1. 'No evidence' Harper knew of Wright-Duffy deal
> 
> The evidence assembled by the RCMP alleges that Prime Minister Stephen Harper did not know about the details of the $90,000 cheque Wright gave to Duffy, only that "the prime minister was informed by his staff that they were working on a plan to have Senator Duffy repay expenses."
> 
> Harper has consistently maintained that he was informed of his former chief of staff's decision to repay Duffy's ineligible Senate expenses on May 15 and that had he known earlier, he would not have allowed it. Harper announced Wright's resignation on May 19.
> 
> RCMP Cpl. Greg Horton, in the sworn affidavit released Wednesday, said he has seen "no evidence" to suggest that Harper was involved in having Duffy's legal bills paid, "no evidence" to suggest that Harper was personally involved in the minutiae of Wright's discussions with Duffy's lawyer, and has no evidence to suggest that Harper was involved in the repayment or reimbursement of money to Duffy or his lawyer.
> 
> Harper was made aware, on Feb. 22, that "Duffy had agreed to repay the money, that he would say he had made a mistake, and that there would be consistent media lines," Wright told the RCMP.
> 
> Wright emailed Benjamin Perrin and others in the PMO to say "I do want to speak to the PM before everything is considered final." less than an hour later, Wright wrote "We are good to go from the PM..."
> 
> Cpl. Horton said Wright maintained that "he did not tell Harper of his own eventual personal decision to pay the $90,000 to Senator Duffy."
> 
> The prime minister, however, "may have been aware that the Conservative Fund would pay the cost of Senator Duffy's legal fees, as Nigel Wright referenced in an email on Feb. 22, 2013, that he wanted to speak to the prime minister before finalizing the agreement with Janice Payne [lawyer for Duffy]," Cpl. Horton said.


RCMP probe into Wright-Duffy affair reveals 5 new threads


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> The RCMP report indicates otherwise:
> 
> RCMP probe into Wright-Duffy affair reveals 5 new threads


When you ignore the hard evidence you can only make comments based on your own biased opinion and continue to toss barbs.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The RCMP report indicates otherwise:


To marginalized lefties, _everything_ smells like a smoking gun.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I don't know that that group is significant enough to have much of an impact, but I think the red tories, the centrists, the swing vote, should things get worse for Harper will prove to be not so kind.
> 
> It's that vote, that put him into a majority.


I think it will simply because that vote is concentrated in Alberta and Southern Ontario. If FATCA goes through a sizeable portion of those Americans may have lost at least a portion of their life savings to the IRS even though they owe not a dime in taxes. Those that have managed to hang on to their savings may well find their banks forcing them to close their accounts and also unable to obtain mortgages or loans. This has already happened in France and Switzerland. Believe me they will be mad and Harper will be their target. 

Beyond their own vote they will be actively campaigning and it wont be for Harper.

The sad part is if the Cons stand up to the US it will probably collapse the IRS attempt to enforce FATCA on a worldwide basis.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ha. The 30% core group responds.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The RCMP report indicates otherwise:
> 
> 
> 
> RCMP probe into Wright-Duffy affair reveals 5 new threads


yes screature, we totally get that the RCMP does not have implicit evidence that shows without any doubt the PM knew. 

However, people of both sides will look at the situation, and can see much of it is based on technicalities, and will often go as far as suggesting they're guilty enough to go to jail 

You have to admit, this doesn't look good on the PM, despite the fact that RCMP has said they don't have evidence that shows he knew. And obviously, I'm far, far from being the only one to think so!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Have we found the PMO Senate deep throat?*

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/11/21/christopher-montgomery-the-voice-of-dissent/


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> However, people of both sides will look at the situation, and can see much of it is based on technicalities, and will often go as far as suggesting they're guilty enough to go to jail


You really ought to hone your reading and comprehension skills. Would have saved you the trouble of looking up a seven year old post. I posted this yesterday:



SINC said:


> That is because he never backs up his 'always right, I'm the victim' opinions. *(I can state that I was one who objected to Adscam back then and likely advocated penalties for those involved.)* But I tire of his constant nitpicking as he has continued to do all day long here with more snipes at parties or leaders or 'cons' and nothing close to fact, it's pure trolling to incite reaction. It's all misinformation based on his particular jaded impressions of politics.


Then again when you use the ignore feature so you don't have to face the truth, self inflicted poop happens, doesn't it?


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BivQJzn2Xgc]Man Stuck In Elevator for 41 hours with diarrhea - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

There's GT's scatological alter ego, right on schedule.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Christopher Montgomery, the voice of dissent? - Beyond The Commons, Capital Read - Macleans.ca


I wonder how some conservative donors feel about the fact that they almost used 32k of the donation money to cover Duffy's stealing.

That can't be popular, especially after Gerstein clearly said he refused to cover Duffy's disputed expenses.

Oops.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Liberal bully*

Colin Kenny, Liberal senator, faces sexual harassment complaint - Politics - CBC News


----------



## whatiwant

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Colin Kenny, Liberal senator, faces sexual harassment complaint - Politics - CBC News


Ew. That's sick.


----------



## BigDL

So remind me one more time:

why is electing pig to the trough superior to selecting pigs for the trough?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> So remind me one more time:
> 
> why is electing pig to the trough superior to selecting pigs for the trough?


It's called "democracy".


----------



## groovetube

oh boy...

Ex-PMO counsel Benjamin Perrin may face B.C. Law Society investigation | CTV News



> Both Perrin and Hamilton had a legal obligation to inform the prime minister of any potential criminal wrongdoing, says criminal lawyer Michael Spratt.
> Either they kept Harper in the dark, or “the lawyers acted appropriately and ethically, which means the prime minister must know more than he has been saying he knew,” Spratt told CTV.


A bit of a conundrum.



> In a Feb. 22 email, Wright said: “I do want to speak to the PM before everything is considered final.” An hour later, Wright wrote: “We are good to go from the PM.”


The question is, why did Wright need to wait an hour to get the 'good to go from the PM' if Duffy was paying his own expenses? Why would that need approval??


----------



## MacDoc

oh my - things must be bad in rightwingding land....what next hell freezing over...












> *House of the whopper: PM has spun such a web of deceit he should resign or be dismissed* 174
> 
> John-Robson BY JOHN ROBSON ,PARLIAMENTARY BUREAU
> FIRST POSTED: WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 2013 08:08 PM EDT | UPDATED: THURSDAY, OCTOBER 31, 2013 08:55 AM EDT
> stephen-harper
> Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper speaks during Question Period in the House of Commons on Parliament Hill in Ottawa October 23, 2013. (REUTERS/Chris Wattie)
> 
> Unless it is OK for the prime minister to lie repeatedly and openly on an important matter, Stephen Harper must resign or be dismissed.
> 
> On Monday, Harper told a Halifax radio audience he “dismissed” former chief of staff Nigel Wright over the mysterious $90,000 cheque to Sen. Mike Duffy. But last Thursday, he told the House of Commons Wright “resigned.” So one or the other was a brazen, in-your-face lie.
> 
> When pressed in Tuesday’s question period he haughtily declared, “Mr. Speaker, the facts are very clear. Mr. Wright acted inappropriately, and for that reason, I very clearly explained to him that he no longer worked for me.” If so, Harper lied to parliament five days earlier.
> 
> What is especially galling is it’s all a matter of record. He wasn’t lying to fool his supporters but to implicate them in the deception, to force them to put loyalty ahead of truth. Including defending that standard PMO whopper “the facts are very clear” when in this disgraceful business, by design, no facts are clear.
> 
> We don’t even know why this tale of dismissal only appeared five months after the fact. Let alone why on
> 
> May 16, a Harper spokesman said Wright “will not resign” and “has the confidence of the prime minister,” three days later the PMO press office quoted Harper “with great regret” accepting Wright’s “resignation,” yet by May 21 the PM was “very upset” and a day later “extremely angry.”
> 
> In question period last Thursday, Harper said, “As soon as I knew, I made this information available to the public and took the appropriate action.” False. As was Tuesday’s question period, “Mr. Speaker, there has been no change of story.”
> 
> This battalion of little lies surrounds and protects a much bigger one: That there was nothing to see, no reason to ask why the PM’s reaction changed, what he learned or when.
> 
> Indeed the official story was Harper knew everything and nothing simultaneously. He knew Nigel Wright alone was behind this $90,000 cheque. But no one told him anything about the matter and he didn’t bother asking.
> 
> On May 23, Sen. David Tkachuk, then-chair of the Senate Internal Economy Committee, told Maclean’s he and Wright had discussed the Duffy mess because “the Prime Minister’s Office was very concerned about this.” Yet supposedly, when it suddenly went away thanks to Wright’s freelance plotting, nobody knew or asked what happened. Including the PM, who met with Duffy and perhaps Wright on Feb. 13 to discuss it.
> 
> Then, when the story suddenly resurfaced with Wright’s inexplicable cheque, Harper did not immediately and angrily demand a full explanation, including who else knew. Indeed, he again told the Commons on Tuesday, “On our side there is one person responsible for this deception and that person is Mr. Wright,” though even he now admits others knew and we have seen a key party lawyer’s signature on a second, hitherto-unsuspected cheque to Duffy.
> 
> We still don’t know what that payment was for, or who negotiated it. And the PMO says we have no business asking.
> 
> As Harper said of Paul Martin over the sponsorship scandal, either he knew and was guilty or did not and was incompetent. But Harper also lies constantly, including telling the House on Tuesday it was “regular practice” to cover legal expenses, like Duffy’s, while calling Duffy’s actions “shocking and unacceptable.” At least I hope that too was a lie.
> 
> As Tories gather in Calgary they should ask themselves, if they are to not become the problem they set out to solve, how they would feel if this web of deceit were spun by a Prime Minister Chretien or Mulcair or Trudeau Jr. And why, if they do not dismiss their chief, Canadians should not dismiss them.


----------



## groovetube

> As Harper said of Paul Martin over the sponsorship scandal, either he knew and was guilty or did not and was incompetent.


Boy that sounds familiar


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*More on the Steve "Good to Go" Harper scandal - At Issue*

Bruce stands out in this edition. Bravo:clap::clap:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdM3dgsB7F0[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bruce stands out in this edition. Bravo:clap::clap:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdM3dgsB7F0


hearing how there was also the confirmation of agreeing to point 3, that the conservative party pay for his expenses, really puts those getting approval from the PM emails into perspective.

As Hubert says, this is about as bad as it gets before the PM actually gets exposed for lying about what he knew. It's almost there now.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> hearing how there was also the confirmation of agreeing to point 3, that the conservative party pay for his expenses, really puts those getting approval from the PM emails into perspective.
> 
> As Hubert says, this is about as bad as it gets before the PM actually gets exposed for lying about what he knew. It's almost there now.


+1

I hope the Conservatives and Stephen Harper continue this strategy of obfuscation, dogged determination not to enlighten citizens with regard to the actions and policies of the Government.

Could there be a person acting more like an arrogant, entitled and privileged individual than the actions and statements of Senator Irving Gerstien.

Just as Rob Ford continued to over play his hand and waste any chance for receiving good will from the public. Stephen Harper is doing likewise. Granted Stephen Harper is not acting as outrageously as the Fords have. 

Stephen Harper is destroying the Conservative Brand nationally as surely as Rob Ford is destroying the conservative support regionally. 

As we've seen recently, Jason Kenney keeps poking Stephen Harper, with a fork, to see if Stephen Harper is done yet.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> oh my - things must be bad in rightwingding land....what next hell freezing over...


Why are you posting almost month old news?


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## Macfury

MacDoc, why are you linking to last month's _Toronto Sun_?


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## i-rui




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## groovetube

Hah! Nice one.


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## Stink

i-rui said:


>


:clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Macfury

There's groovetube's fascination with feces again.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> There's groovetube's fascination with feces again.


Diversion time it is. Surely there must be at least one nice thing you could find to say about the con-jurors in Ottawa.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Diversion time it is. Surely there must be at least one nice thing you could find to say about the con-jurors in Ottawa.


It's always about Groovetube doncha know. Quite the fan club!


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> Diversion time it is. Surely there must be at least one nice thing you could find to say about the con-jurors in Ottawa.





groovetube said:


> It's always about Groovetube doncha know. Quite the fan club!


Seems the action is taken from Stephen Harper Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government's playbook; deflect, attack or make wild accusations so as not to deal with the issues at had.

The Gomery Inquiry did not find Jean Chrétien had any involvement in the Sponsorship scandal. Subsequently the stink of that scandal stuck to Paul Martin who was not even in Cabinet.

Stephen Harper has a stink of desperation that is presently following him. :lmao::lmao:


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## skippythebushkangaroo

*The gift that keeps on giftin'*

PMO staff tried to use party ties to Deloitte to derail Duffy audit - Inside Politics


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*30% base people shouldn't look*

This is unreal...transparency at last.

Appendix C - Mike Duffy ITO


----------



## BigDL

*CBC Radio's The House: Comedy & Entertainment This Episode*

Listening to Conservative spokes people is very entertaining to listen to what good to go means and Senator Tkachuk's explanation of the RCM Police investigation.

A good listen HERE


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Listening to Conservative spokes people is very entertaining to listen to what good to go means and Senator Tkachuk's explanation of the RCM Police investigation.
> 
> A good listen HERE


Evan Solomon was strong in his interview ............. he would not let go of his direct questions which needed direct answers. :clap::clap::clap:


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## groovetube

The PM says we're 'good to go' on Duffy repaying his own expenses?

Just how stupid do these guys think we are...


----------



## eMacMan

Well I have suspected all along that Duffy et al was little more than a smoke screen, and voila: Bill C30 is back again. 

Didn't fly when first the Liberals and then the Cons called it an anti-terrorism bill. Strike three should have been when Vic Toews tried to pass it off as an anti-kiddie porn measure. 

But no here it comes again, this time it is none other than the supposedly Honorable Peter MacKay trying to pass it off as a cyber bullying bill. 

The real bullies here are the appropriately named 'Cons' who keep trying to shove this piece of 5#!7 down Canadian throats. 



> OTTAWA -- Civil libertarians say the federal government's new cyberbullying bill will erode Internet privacy by reviving many elements of the Tories' controversial online surveillance legislation.
> Groups that oppose undue intrusion by the state are painting the cyberbullying legislation as a Trojan horse containing dozens of pages of provisions from Bill C-30 -- killed by the government earlier this year following a public outcry.
> "This is not a bill about cyberbullying," said Micheal Vonn, policy director of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association.
> 
> 
> * "It's a bill essentially to reintroduce most of the components of Bill C-30, despite the government's assurances that they would not do so."*
> 
> Read more: Cyberbullying bill a Trojan horse to revive online surveillance: critics | CTV Atlantic News
> ​


----------



## Dr.G.

22 Minutes: Canadian Tea Party - YouTube

Interesting ............ and humorous.


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## skippythebushkangaroo

*The king is a fink*

Let's go Brandon!


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## Dr.G.

#NOMOREWINTER - YouTube

Now, this is a law that ALL parties and all people can get behind and agree that it is needed. We shall see.


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## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harperphobia not Trudeaumania*

Too bad about Brandon. Close but no cigar. But I love the opening statement in Hébert's column - Harperphobia is the cause of the slide in CON support. She qualifies the statement emphasizing many things can happen in the next 2 years.

Liberals, NDP go at it — and Tories get the bruises: Hébert | Toronto Star


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## groovetube

unbelievable. Admittedly I wasn't watching the by-elections very closely, and had no idea the liberals presented such a threat in a conservative stronghold!

What a massive rise in the liberal vote. And deep in the heart of Harper land too. Not a good thing for Harper.


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## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Too bad about Brandon.


The people of Brandon know a bad alternative when they see one.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> The people of Brandon know a bad alternative when they see one.


Still, it was close.

"The Manitoba riding of Brandon-Souris had been too close to call all night. At one point, Liberal candidate Rolf Dinsdale had taken a slight lead, but Tory candidate Larry Maguire, a prominent provincial MLA, was able to claim victory, winning by just under 400 votes. Maguire secured 44.1 per cent of the votes compared to the Liberal candidate's 42.7 per cent."

Byelection results: Liberals, Tories hold on to seats - Politics - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Tories fend off Liberal surge, hold on to Manitoba riding - The Globe and Mail



> [Mr. Harper’s party saw its share of the vote decline in all four by-election ridings. Meanwhile, the Liberal share surged in all four, with the party leap-frogging the NDP in each Manitoba riding and fending off an NDP challenge in Toronto.


Ouch.



> Monday was a strong showing for the Liberals, who held their two ridings while winning each with a larger share of the vote in each. The Liberal vote exploded in Brandon-Souris, though it wasn’t enough to win. The party got 1,882 votes in the riding in 2011, and 11,814 votes on Monday. In Provencher, the Liberals also surged to draw 30 per cent of the vote, up from 7 per cent in 2011.


Huge surges deep in the heart of conservative ridings, in both of the conservative held ridings in this by-election. And there's still 2 years left in this tired government.


----------



## Macfury

I was glad to see that NDP fruitcake Linda McQuaig go down in flames. The Liberals are worth something after all!


----------



## Dr.G.

Parliament Hill: News and notes from CTV's Ottawa bureau

Wow!! This quite the look ............... and quite the cost. Still, as they say, "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones." We shall see.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Internal CON fight - Harper needs to tell the truth*

An unusually open piece from a CON loyalist worried about the damage the Harper scandal is creating -

Op-Ed: Stephen Harper puts Conservatives in a bind


----------



## heavyall

A few thoughts about the by-elections:

• The government almost always loses seats in by-elections, especially if there is any bad press towards them at the time. 

• The press has been almost universally anti-Conservative for quite some time.

• The Conservatives shot themselves in the foot in Brandon from the get-go -- botching the nomination process, alienating a huge portion of their core support. CPC party members very publicly moved over to the Liberal camp, campaigning for them, and even putting their names in for nomination.

• The guy the LPC did nominate in Brandon was the son of the former PC MP who held that seat for 30 years.

• Trudeau personally made several stops in Brandon to campaign.

• The Liberals were polling at 59% in Brandon the day before the by-election (they got 42%).

• That is the biggest "gimme" that Trudeau could ever hope to get as far as favourable election conditions, and he still couldn't gain one seat. 

---------------------------------------------------

Maintaining the status quo for any incumbent govt in a by-election is a huge victory. If Trudeau couldn't take a seat from them under these conditions, his public stature is clearly exaggerated. 

If nothing else, it's another indictment on the state of polling in this country. When the polls are off by almost 20 points, one has to wonder if these polling firms are trying to report public opinion, or influence it.


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## Dr.G.

For the Conservatives, "it's serenity on top but turbulence below." This is going to be an interesting time for PM Harper. We shall see how it all turns out.


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## groovetube

heavyall said:


> A few thoughts about the by-elections:
> 
> • The government almost always loses seats in by-elections, especially if there is any bad press towards them at the time.
> 
> • The press has been almost universally anti-Conservative for quite some time.
> 
> • The Conservatives shot themselves in the foot in Brandon from the get-go -- botching the nomination process, alienating a huge portion of their core support. CPC party members very publicly moved over to the Liberal camp, campaigning for them, and even putting their names in for nomination.
> 
> • The guy the LPC did nominate in Brandon was the son of the former PC MP who held that seat for 30 years.
> 
> • Trudeau personally made several stops in Brandon to campaign.
> 
> • The Liberals were polling at 59% in Brandon the day before the by-election (they got 42%).
> 
> • That is the biggest "gimme" that Trudeau could ever hope to get as far as favourable election conditions, and he still couldn't gain one seat.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Maintaining the status quo for any incumbent govt in a by-election is a huge victory. If Trudeau couldn't take a seat from them under these conditions, his public stature is clearly exaggerated.
> 
> If nothing else, it's another indictment on the state of polling in this country. When the polls are off by almost 20 points, one has to wonder if these polling firms are trying to report public opinion, or influence it.


nice spin. But there's no glossing this one over.

Those ridings were conservative strongholds, brandon has been conservative for almost 60 years. Even in Vic Toews riding, the liberals were about 30%, which is a huge surge when you consider the ridings.

They were far, FAR from any 'gimmes' by any stretch of the imagination. It was very surprising, and that's putting it mildly.

2 years is a long time in politics, but often it doesn't favour a government getting longer in the tooth, becoming more and more mired in scandal. (despite how much conservatives want them to be 'much ado about nothing').


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## heavyall

groovetube said:


> nice spin.


What spin?

If you lived around here you'd know, the surprise was that the Liberals *didn't* win in Brandon. As of YESTERDAY they were polling at 59%. They only managed 42. 

[edited to remove statistic error}


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## Macfury

heavyall said:


> What spin?
> 
> If you lived around here you'd know, the surprise was that the Liberals *didn't* win in Brandon. As of YESTERDAY they were polling at 59%. They only managed 42. Meanwhile the Conservatives, who only got 37% in 2011, INCREASED their popular support to 44.


Don't let facts get in the way of his feelings.


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## SINC

heavyall said:


> What spin?
> 
> If you lived around here you'd know, the surprise was that the Liberals *didn't* win in Brandon. As of YESTERDAY they were polling at 59%. They only managed 42. Meanwhile the Conservatives, who only got 37% in 2011, INCREASED their popular support to 44.


As usual he has no idea of what he posts. If he lived there it would make no difference, but he likely beat a drum in Brandon (or even Manitoba one time) which makes him an expert on your area of the country. The guy is a legend in his own mind.


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## groovetube

heavyall said:


> What spin?
> 
> If you lived around here you'd know, the surprise was that the Liberals *didn't* win in Brandon. As of YESTERDAY they were polling at 59%. They only managed 42. Meanwhile the Conservatives, who only got 37% in 2011, INCREASED their popular support to 44.


No. The conservatives, got 63% in 2011, their support dropped dramatically this time around. The liberals went from 5%, to over 40%. Even in Provencher, liberal support went way up, and there wasn't the controversy over the conservative candidate. Spin? This nonsense that it was a gimme to Trudeau.

As I said, this is a conservative stronghold that voted overwhelmingly conservative before, and was only held by a Chretein liberal 93-97 but has been conservative otherwise for 60 years.

This isn't an indicator that Harper is done for, but it sure isn't a good one that's for sure.


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## Macfury

That Liberal vote absolutely collapsed at the last minute against a very weak candidate. I hope that JT continues to work his magic on behalf of his candidates come the federal election.


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## Dr.G.

Conservatives in trouble, with Harper as dead weight - The Globe and Mail

Not what the Conservatives and PM Harper wanted or needed to hear just now. Coming from Jeffrey Simpson, who is a supporter of the Conservative Party, but also very fair and balanced in his points of view within his articles, this is not good news for PM Harper.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Conservatives in trouble, with Harper as dead weight - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Not what the Conservatives and PM Harper wanted or needed to hear just now. Coming from Jeffrey Simpson, who is a supporter of the Conservative Party, but also very fair and balanced in his points of view within his articles, this is not good news for PM Harper.


Fair, and balanced, what a refreshing change here  (though no doubt we'll hear how he is a liberal turncoat hack soon enough)

To be fair, it isn't surprising that there'll be a lot of criticism of Harper after this by-election. It'll be interesting to watch the next 2 years preceding the election.


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## Dr.G.

More bad news, especially since Finance Minister Flaherty is one of the bright lights in the Conservative Party.

"Jim Love, Canadian Mint chairman, helped run offshore 'tax-avoidance scheme' for clients

Close friend of Finance Minister Flaherty has also served as tax adviser to government."

Jim Love, Canadian Mint chairman, helped run offshore 'tax-avoidance scheme' for clients - Politics - CBC News


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> For the Conservatives, "it's serenity on top but turbulence below." This is going to be an interesting time for PM Harper. We shall see how it all turns out.


To the contrary IMO. I think it is the opposite, there is turbulence at the top but serenity at the bottom. Time will indeed tell...

Isn't it great that we live in a country that we can freely express such divergent opinions and the only repercussion will be the slings and arrows of an internet troll, or two, or three, or four, etc... or probably twice that amount if you don't sit on one particular side of the political fence or the other ... 

We are truly blessed.


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## Macfury

You would think the Conservatives had lost all of the seats, with the grim bells tolling on EhMac! For a government temporarily embroiled in petty scandal, the election was remarkably good news.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> More bad news, especially since Finance Minister Flaherty is one of the bright lights in the Conservative Party.
> 
> "Jim Love, Canadian Mint chairman, helped run offshore 'tax-avoidance scheme' for clients
> 
> Close friend of Finance Minister Flaherty has also served as tax adviser to government."
> 
> Jim Love, Canadian Mint chairman, helped run offshore 'tax-avoidance scheme' for clients - Politics - CBC News


Why? 

I didn't realize I was responsible for befriending you here on ehMac becuase I thought you were a good guy and all this time it turns out you are... I don't know.... a pedophile? And now my morality is in question?

How does that work exactly? 

Oh I know. "Guilt by association"... 

The only problem with that it is "guilt by association" is a sword that cuts both ways...

Look at some of the "friends" of the NDP and Liberals beyond what is in the media... it is a tangled web indeed, if that is the basis of one's critique... look at Mulcare for one... 

Personally, I think one is responsible for one's own actions and not those of others unless you are responsible for coercing their actions in an extreme manner.

I could go on...


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## groovetube

Curious, how did he become Canadian Mint chairman?

I know very little of this.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I know very little of this.


This will come as a shock to the members here.


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## SINC

I guess he's never played the mint?


----------



## groovetube

oh look! (guess ehMac really needs a sarcasm smilie)

Transport Canada | Appointment to the Royal Canadian Mint

Wonder if being buddies with flaherty helped :lmao:

That doesn't seem anything like internet forum association...


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> That Liberal vote absolutely collapsed at the last minute against a very weak candidate. I hope that JT continues to work his magic on behalf of his candidates come the federal election.


Not necessarily. Eric Grenier analyzed multiple polls and forecast that the Brandon-Souris byelection would be a toss-up leaning slightly in favour of the Conservatives. 

(Forum research predicted otherwise, but Grenier has questioned a few things about how Forum research conducts its poll.)

ThreeHundredEight.com: By-election post-mortem

So... not necessarily a last minute collapse, but certainly a change from a strongly Conservative riding to a close call.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh look! (guess ehMac really needs a sarcasm smilie)
> 
> Transport Canada | Appointment to the Royal Canadian Mint
> 
> Wonder if being buddies with flaherty helped :lmao:
> 
> That doesn't seem anything like internet forum association...



I see how this works now... I was so stupid before.... shame on me.


----------



## groovetube

You didn't jump all over the sarcasm like catnip, so you're good.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I see how this works now... I was so stupid before.... shame on me.


Thar ya go. It was sarcasm, not ignorance. A 14,000-post wild goose chase.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You didn't jump all over the sarcasm like catnip, so you're good.


Indeed there is much catnip these days... I wish there could be a "pause" button and we could just focus on things of more significance.

Seriously. 

It may make a difference in the next election, or not....

There are a lot more immediate considerations despite the incessant almost one topic questioning coming from the Opposition... they sound like a broken record.

As does the government.

Same as it ever was...


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> No. The conservatives, got 63% in 2011,


Good catch. That's what I get for using an online article to collect my stats instead of verifying them for myself. I've edited my post to redact that line. My apologies.

Even without that, the totality of my point stands: both the Liberals and the Conservatives fully expected that Brandon-Souris would change hands. That it didn't was a pretty big surprise. It means that a lot of the people who told pollsters that they were liking the Liberals now just couldn't bring themselves to put that X on the ballot, even in a by-election where they had good reason to send a message to the Conservative Party. By-elections are where those kinds of seat changes are the norm, and the Liberals were unable to pull it off.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Curious, how did he become Canadian Mint chairman?
> 
> I know very little of this.


"Love, a close friend of Finance Minister Jim Flaherty who was appointed to the Mint's board in 2006, was also a trustee for most of the last decade of the Arthur Meighen Trust, an entity set up by the former Conservative PM in 1949 to distribute his wealth to his family." 

According to CBC Radio this morning it was FM Jim Flaherty who appointed him to the Mint.

Jim Love, Canadian Mint chairman, helped run offshore 'tax-avoidance scheme' for clients - Politics - CBC News


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## skippythebushkangaroo

I know the Brandon riding quite well having visited there many times because my Mom grew up in Virden. I can assure you there aren't many Liberals in those parts but the Liberals did very well. According to David Akin, Jenni Byrne was running the CON campaign there for the past couple of weeks. The anti-Harper vote is a majority in the riding. Unheard of for Brandon.

Sun News : Despite victories, Tories worry about PMO 'rot'


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## skippythebushkangaroo

*Liberal errors in Brandon*

Liberal mistakes cost them Brandon-Souris - Winnipeg Free Press


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Indeed there is much catnip these days... I wish there could be a "pause" button and we could just focus on things of more significance.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> It may make a difference in the next election, or not....
> 
> There are a lot more immediate considerations despite the incessant almost one topic questioning coming from the Opposition... they sound like a broken record.
> 
> As does the government.
> 
> Same as it ever was...


thanks for the sane post. Yes I agree with you mostly. I don't know if Trudeau will maintain this momentum, though something tells me he most likely will, what that means in the next election, who knows. I'm not exactly clapping my hands at the idea of him getting a majority either. Knocking Harper to a minority, I'd be fine with.

The senate thing is a big thing though, but of course the opposition is going to make hay on this as much as they possibly could. It's just what opposition parties do, and personally I think there's more to this story, and let them drill until as much as the story that will come out comes out I say.

But there are some more disturbing things going on in my opinion, and our long fascination with crack smoking mayors, back room payoffs, while significant enough to knock these jokers down a few pegs, is keeping the focus on some of the wrong things, yes. But I don't place the blame on the oppositions. After all, it was the mayor who smoked crack and the PMO that instigated the crimes (actions?) in the first place.


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## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Good catch. That's what I get for using an online article to collect my stats instead of verifying them for myself. I've edited my post to redact that line. My apologies.
> 
> Even without that, the totality of my point stands: both the Liberals and the Conservatives fully expected that Brandon-Souris would change hands. That it didn't was a pretty big surprise. It means that a lot of the people who told pollsters that they were liking the Liberals now just couldn't bring themselves to put that X on the ballot, even in a by-election where they had good reason to send a message to the Conservative Party. By-elections are where those kinds of seat changes are the norm, and the Liberals were unable to pull it off.


no worries.

Living in Ontario I don't know the full story on what happened there. From what I see posted here, one pollster was too optimistic, and another was more accurate in that it was to be a tight race. It was indeed, I was watching the results as it was trickling in, and for a while there, it seemed as though the liberal would squeak in, but the tory did in the end, by under 400 votes.

Really shows how important the efforts are to 'get the vote out'. For me, it was surprising just to see such a strong showing for liberal candidates in both of the tory strongholds. It just means that if Trudeau were to gain momentum, his gains may not be simply ontario and quebec, which I think would be easier for him to be a bigger threat to Harper in the next election in, but also some strong conservative riding west of ontario.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Liberal mistakes cost them Brandon-Souris - Winnipeg Free Press


Well, duh! These mistakes are part of the Justin Trudeau era.


----------



## Dr.G.

Why won't John Baird do as Ronald Reagan did: "Trust but verify?" I am not overly optimistic that Iran will keep it's word re their nuclear projects, but this at least is a start to bring some civility to that region. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Why won't John Baird do as Ronald Reagan did: "Trust but verify?" I am not overly optimistic that Iran will keep it's word re their nuclear projects, but this at least is a start to bring some civility to that region. We shall see.


Iran has made it very clear that their rights to pretty much continue on as always have been recognized. "Peace in our time!"


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Iran has made it very clear that their rights to pretty much continue on as always have been recognized. "Peace in our time!"


So Ronald Reagan is too liberal for you, Macfury. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in his speech concerning the Munich Agreement and the Anglo-German Declaration used that phrase. Sadly, he did not listen to Churchill who had gathered documentation that Hitler was not living up to the agreement. This is where the concept of verification is needed, especially with Iran. As I said, I am skeptical and very cautious re Iran, but if they live up to their signed agreements in this first phase of negotiations then it will be seen as a positive first step. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

World War II: Canada [Part 1/4] - YouTube

Neville Chamberlain - We are at war - YouTube

«We shall fight them on the beaches, and we shall never surrender» - Sir W. Churchill - YouTube

Winston Churchill 'Now we are Masters of Our Fate' Speech - YouTube


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> So Ronald Reagan is too liberal for you, Macfury. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in his speech concerning the Munich Agreement and the Anglo-German Declaration used that phrase. Sadly, he did not listen to Churchill who had gathered documentation that Hitler was not living up to the agreement. This is where the concept of verification is needed, especially with Iran. As I said, I am skeptical and very cautious re Iran, but if they live up to their signed agreements in this first phase of negotiations then it will be seen as a positive first step. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


The verification process agreed to has already been declared insubstantial by the International Atomic Energy Agency. That leaves us with "trust" but not "verify."


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> I guess he's never played the mint?


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ROTFLMAO!

You owe me a new screen & keyboard!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> I don't know if Trudeau will maintain this momentum, though something tells me he most likely will, what that means in the next election, who knows. I'm not exactly clapping my hands at the idea of him getting a majority either. Knocking Harper to a minority, I'd be fine with.


So, I can't stand Harper, the CONservative SOB, and everything he stands for (as evidenced by every post I've made about him on this thread) but the prospect of actually getting our representative into a majority position is untenable, as well.

Is that the thrust here?

How much more wishy-washy can we get?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The verification process agreed to has already been declared insubstantial by the International Atomic Energy Agency. That leaves us with "trust" but not "verify."


We shall see. Trust without verification is useless in this instance.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> We shall see. Trust without verification is useless in this instance.


They may not inspect the Parchin military base:



> A perusal of the text of the Iranian nuclear deal sealed Sunday reveals that the Parchin military base, suspected of being used to develop a nuclear weapon, does not appear in the agreement at all.
> 
> As the Wall Street Journal notes, Iran didn't ratify an additional protocol to its International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) agreement allowing on-demand inspections at Parchin and other sites.


Key Omission: Parchin not Mentioned in Iran Deal - Global Agenda - News - Israel National News


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> They may not inspect the Parchin military base:
> 
> 
> 
> Key Omission: Parchin not Mentioned in Iran Deal - Global Agenda - News - Israel National News


This is not acceptable if total verification if required.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

That one was funny!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> thanks for the sane post. Yes I agree with you mostly. I don't know if Trudeau will maintain this momentum, though something tells me he most likely will, what that means in the next election, who knows. I'm not exactly clapping my hands at the idea of him getting a majority either. Knocking Harper to a minority, I'd be fine with.
> 
> The senate thing is a big thing though, but of course the opposition is going to make hay on this as much as they possibly could. It's just what opposition parties do, and personally I think there's more to this story, and let them drill until as much as the story that will come out comes out I say.
> 
> But there are some more disturbing things going on in my opinion, and our long fascination with crack smoking mayors, back room payoffs, while significant enough to knock these jokers down a few pegs, is keeping the focus on some of the wrong things, yes. But I don't place the blame on the oppositions. After all, it was the mayor who smoked crack and the *PMO that instigated the crimes (actions?) in the first place*.


Well the instigation was actually Duffy and his refusal to admit that he did anything wrong and he should repay his expenses. Senators and some members of PMO then became embroiled in an attempt to make the fat bastard pay them back.

Admittedly it seems the "scheme" was poorly thought out and I think the main reason for that was because of Wright's background. Backroom deals and making things go away is the way of corporate culture, so long as everything is "legal".

What seems apparent is that Wright may be familiar with corporate law but not the laws that regulate Parliamentarians and what is and isn't allowable. Not to mention Wright, Duffy, other Senators, a couple of lawyers (at least) and PMO staff were just plain stupid in thinking an exchange of e-mails were somehow private and could not be made public.

But just to add, remember the PM ordered that, despite Parliamentary privilege, the PMO files and communications be accessible to the RCMP without the RCMP even asking for them. Why would he do that if he knew the trail would lead back to him?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


Same as it ever was...

That being said, see how much worse it can be... Thank god David Byrne is such a great artist that once you have heard the song you will understand the visuals without the copyright protected sound. 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.








> This video contains content from WMG, Warner Chappell, UMPG Publishing, SACEM, PRS CS and EMI Music Publishing, one or more of whom have blocked it on copyright grounds.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper's newest parliamentary ass. has his own web site*

Go ahead ask him a question. 

Ask Paul Calandra - Put Your Questions to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Pot smokin' at the RCMP*

Pot-smoking Mountie can't smoke in uniform, RCMP says - Ottawa - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Pot-smoking Mountie can't smoke in uniform, RCMP says - Ottawa - CBC News


rut ro?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Pot-smoking Mountie can't smoke in uniform, RCMP says - Ottawa - CBC News


There are no laws preventing an NDP voter from becoming a member of the RCMP.


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper attacked for refusing to punish Conservative senator for role in Mike Duffy scandal | National Post



> What is the ethical difference between a $90,000 cheque from Nigel Wright and a $32,000 cheque from the Conservative party?


Excellent question.


----------



## Macfury

Excellent answer: Gerstein did not do anything.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper attacked for refusing to punish Conservative senator for role in Mike Duffy scandal | National Post
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent question.


One happened the other didn't.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> One happened the other didn't.


Now there you go again, bein' all logical an' stuff. Not fair...

In addition, regarding this question:



screature said:


> Why would he do that if he knew the trail would lead back to him?


He'll get back to you on that one. Neither Google nor his progressives blogs an' buddies could furnish an answer...


----------



## eMacMan

Probably a dumb question here. 

Peter MacKay has announced his intent to try for the fourth time to pass bill C-30 (the internet privacy assault bill). 

On top of this the leaked Snowden papers have revealed that Harpo bugged the attendees of the Toronto G-20 (ala The Soviet union or good old East Germany). He also sent the data to the NSA which would have also fed it directly to Israel, the FBI, the CIA ....... ....................................

Why ignore all of this while attacking the PM for fumbling of the Duffy Butterball? 

We mocked the USSR and other commie nations for much wimpier invasions of privacy than MacKay's anti-cyber-bullying/privacy-assault bill or the bugging of visiting heads of state. Was the problem with the Soviet Union a question of degree? Were their attacks on privacy too wishy washy to meet Canadian Privacy Invasion Standards?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> One happened the other didn't.


oh screature, come on. Surely you heard about the RCMP investigation that revealed that not only did _he offer to pay it at 32,000 bucks_, but also tried to interfere in the audit?

Saying nothing happened is merely repeating Harper's talking points. Or, are you saying the RCMP fabricated all this?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh screature, come on. Surely you heard about the RCMP investigation that revealed that not only did _he offer to pay it at 32,000 bucks_, but also tried to interfere in the audit?
> 
> Saying nothing happened is merely repeating Harper's talking points. Or, are you saying the RCMP fabricated all this?


There was no $32,000 cheque, didn't happen.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Probably a dumb question here.
> 
> Peter MacKay has announced his intent to try for the fourth time to pass bill C-30 (the internet privacy assault bill).
> 
> *On top of this the leaked Snowden papers have revealed that Harpo bugged *the attendees of the Toronto G-20 (ala The Soviet union or good old East Germany). *He also sent the data to the NSA which would have also fed it directly to Israel, the FBI, the CIA* ....... ....................................
> 
> Why ignore all of this while attacking the PM for fumbling of the Duffy Butterball?
> 
> We mocked the USSR and other commie nations for much wimpier invasions of privacy than MacKay's anti-cyber-bullying/privacy-assault bill or the bugging of visiting heads of state. Was the problem with the Soviet Union a question of degree? Were their attacks on privacy too wishy washy to meet Canadian Privacy Invasion Standards?


No it didn't and no he didn't. The NSA did in conjunction with CSEC.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> There was no $32,000 cheque, didn't happen.


If the amount was 32,000, not 90,000, there WOULD have been a cheque. The RCMP documents make that clear.

That's the point. You're simply a arguing semantics, but I suspect you know that. Your response is like a robot, just stick to the talking point, and hope people buy it.

And what of the interference with the audit?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> If the amount was 32,000, not 90,000, there WOULD have been a cheque. The RCMP documents make that clear.
> 
> That's the point. You're simply a arguing semantics, but I suspect you know that. Your response is like a robot, just stick to the talking point, and hope people buy it.
> 
> And what of the interference with the audit?


Fact. No $32,000 cheque. Didn't happen. And neither did any interference in the audit sorry that the facts doesn't line up in your favour.

No interference in expense audit: witness


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Fact. No $32,000 cheque. Didn't happen. And neither did any interference in the audit sorry that the facts doesn't line up in your favour.
> 
> No interference in expense audit: witness


unfortunately, as you know, the RCMP investigation counters your... 'facts'.

So, to confirm, if the amount was 32,000, the senator -would have- written cheque.

And the link you provided merely highlighted the tories blocking a key witness.

Really.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> No it didn't and no he didn't. The NSA did in conjunction with CSEC.


The CSEC is or at least should be responsible to the government. If this behaviour is not kosher with Harpo he has the option/obligation to put an end to their $Billion$ palace. If it does not upset him there is a much more serious problem with the PM than the Duffy Turkey scandal.

BTW nice deflection from the MacKay privacy assault legislation.:clap:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> unfortunately, as you know, the RCMP investigation counters your... 'facts'.
> 
> So, to confirm, if the amount was 32,000, the senator -would have- written cheque.
> 
> *And the link you provided merely highlighted the tories blocking a key witness.
> *
> Really.


No cheque for $32,000 didn't happen.

They completely changed the story from the original that I linked to as that was the original headline and the emphasis was that the 3 auditors said they were not interfered with.

So much for journalistic integrity... You write one story with one headline and switch it for another at the same URL... bloody media just keeps getting worse and worse.

Here the way the story began with the original article still linked that way on National News Watch:



> Auditors unaware of any interference in their work on Senate expense report
> Nov 28 2013 — CP
> 
> Auditors from Deloitte have told a Senate committee they were not aware of interference in their audits of the three senators at the centre of the ongoing expense scandal. Three auditors from the firm were asked what they knew about allegations that the Prime Minister’s Office tried to sway the outcome of their work. Audit […]


But when you click on it you get what is up there now...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> No cheque for $32,000 didn't happen.
> 
> They completely changed the story from the original that I linked to as that was the original headline and the emphasis was that the 3 auditors said they were not interfered with.
> 
> So much for journalistic integrity... You write one story with one headline and switch it for another at the same URL... bloody media just keeps getting worse and worse.


I hear that the police are beginning to charge people who have thought about stealing cars and electronics, but haven't done anything. Regular epidemic


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No cheque for $32,000 didn't happen.
> 
> They completely changed the story from the original that I linked to as that was the original headline and the emphasis was that the 3 auditors said they were not interfered with.
> 
> So much for journalistic integrity... You write one story with one headline and switch it for another at the same URL... bloody media just keeps getting worse and worse.


it was my understanding that it wasn't journalists who made this allegation, it was from the RCMP.

As for the cheque, you keep repeating it. 

What would have happened if the amount was 32,000, not 90,000? (hint, RCMP docs make this answer clear)

I think the back and forth pretty much ends there don't you think?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The CSEC is or at least should be responsible to the government. If this behaviour is not kosher with Harpo he has the option/obligation to put an end to their $Billion$ palace. If it does not upset him there is a much more serious problem with the PM than the Duffy Turkey scandal.
> 
> BTW nice deflection from the MacKay privacy assault legislation.:clap:


No deflection simply correcting your false statement.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *it was my understanding that it wasn't journalists who made this allegation, it was from the RCMP.*
> 
> As for the cheque, you keep repeating it.
> 
> What would have happened if the amount was 32,000, not 90,000? (hint, RCMP docs make this answer clear)
> 
> I think the back and forth pretty much ends there don't you think?


Who said anything about journalists making the accusations? I think you need to read my post again.

No cheque for $32,000 that's where it ends, with what did not happen.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> No deflection simply correcting your false statement.


Admittedly Bill C-30 has now become Bill C-13. However it is still almost identical to the bill first introduced by the Liberals to supposedly fight Terrorism, then re-introduced by the Harper Cons to fight terrorism, then re-re-introduced by Vic Toews to fight Kiddie Pornographers. Now it is supposed to fight cyber-bullying but the intent is still an assault on the privacy rights of Canadians online, on landline and even wirelessly.

This legislation is so bad that the last three times around, even the Con base had sufficient brainpower, to conclude it was really bad legislation. This legislation is so bad that anyone who financially contributes to any Con cause should immediately pull the plug. They should not give another dime until this low life KGB/NSA inspired piece of 5#!7 is shredded and burned. Any party members that support it should be forever banished from the House of Commons.



> Last week, Justice Minister Peter MacKay introduced Bill C-13, the “Protecting Canadians from Online Crime Act.” With much of the country hypnotized by the twin spectacles of the Senate in Ottawa and City Hall in Toronto, the bill received less public attention than it would had it been born during a less chaotic news cycle.





> Much of the new bill's contents are in fact a re-hash of C-30, the deeply unpopular lawful access legislation tabled (unsuccessfully) by the government last year – that is, much of this new bill is about expanding the government's surveillance powers, just as the last bill was. This comes despite an explicit promise from former justice minister Rob Nicholson that the items from bill C-30 would never be re-introduced.


Revenge of the cyberbullies: How a dead online spying law was reborn - The Globe and Mail


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I hear that the police are beginning to charge people who have thought about stealing cars and electronics, but haven't done anything. Regular epidemic


Don't laugh. Lethbridge city cop pulled me over on a bad license tag on the Hawg 2-1/2 years ago. Said it was registered to an Arctic Cat snowmobile. Ended up he read the tag wrong. Fine, no biggie. I was standing there, getting ready to mount up & head off. He told me to wait, he knew what I was thinking. Said he'd been on the force for 23 years & could read minds. No ****e.

After his statement, if he was really capable of what he claimed, I doubt he would have let me go...


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> No cheque for $32,000 that's where it ends, with what did not happen.


Screature, quit wasting energy on this.

Notice the bargaining chip:



groovetube said:


> I think the back and forth pretty much ends there don't you think?


That's his feeble attempt to save face, stop the discussion in its tracks to save him further embarrassment, expressed on these boards elsewhere. He knows he's wrong, he knows you know he's wrong, he just simply cannot back down, come to grips with reality & actually admit he's wrong.

It's just another star-studded, glowing pink neon pathological example of groove being right, even when he's wrong.

But it's everybody else's fault...


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Who said anything about journalists making the accusations? I think you need to read my post again.
> 
> No cheque for $32,000 that's where it ends, with what did not happen.


sorry, I thought that was what you were insinuating.

It likely ends, legally. Of course, he won't be charged with anything. I don't mean to be suggesting that he be charged.

But the optics of the revelations that he would have absolutely written that cheque if the cost was 32 not 90k, can't look very good. Especially with his carefully worded announcement at the conservative convention that no funds were going to be used for Duffy's repayment.

In fact, they would have, if the cost wasn't as high. And that is simply what you cannot escape.

The fact that he did cover Duffy's legal expenses, and Harper's justification that any conservative in legal trouble may have his legal expenses covered, well that I can partially buy. But not the other bombshell that the 32k would have been done.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> In fact, they would have, if the cost wasn't as high. And that is simply what you cannot escape.


No. All this says is that they were considering it, then decided not to. The road not taken remains not taken.


----------



## groovetube

Senior Deloitte partner with ties to Tory senator made inappropriate inquiries about Mike Duffy report, auditors confirm | National Post



> Conservatives block bid to have Runia testify
> 
> Runia was not invited to Thursday’s meeting. At the end of the meeting, Liberal senators tried unsuccessfully to have him called as a witness. The Conservative majority turned them down.
> 
> “This just smells like another cover up and we don’t like it at all. We’re very disturbed by it,” said Liberal Sen. Jim Munson. “We have to put the puzzle together and the biggest piece right now is Mr. Runia.”


Nothing to see here, move along.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Senior Deloitte partner with ties to Tory senator made inappropriate inquiries about Mike Duffy report, auditors confirm | National Post
> 
> Nothing to see here, move along.


All 3 auditors said they were not interfered with, there was only one call from Runia.



> Gary Timm, who was in charge of Duffy's audit, told senators on the committee that Runia phoned him once.
> 
> "He wanted to know if Senator Duffy were to repay, how much would that be. I told him I can't divulge or disclose any confidential information. He understood my reply and I directed him to public information," listing senator entitlements, Timm said.
> 
> "It was a short call and it ended there."
> 
> Asked whether Timm tried to find out why and on whose behalf Runia was calling, Timm said no.
> 
> "I wanted to keep everything confidential and I wanted that call, like I said, to end shortly... He called me about that one question," Timm said.


Now there's a smoking gun proving interference if I ever saw one.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Now there's a smoking gun proving interference if I ever saw one.


He's the biggest piece of the puzzle I hear tell.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Screature, quit wasting energy on this.
> 
> Notice the bargaining chip:
> 
> 
> 
> That's his feeble attempt to save face, stop the discussion in its tracks to save him further embarrassment, expressed on these boards elsewhere. He knows he's wrong, he knows you know he's wrong, he just simply cannot back down, come to grips with reality & actually admit he's wrong.
> 
> It's just another star-studded, glowing pink neon pathological example of groove being right, even when he's wrong.
> 
> But it's everybody else's fault...


It's grove's favourite drum, the four step beat. Statement (usually a troll), proven wrong, denial, then claim to be victim. Happens over and over in thread after thread.


----------



## groovetube

Usual characters, once again, attacking members personally.

Same as it ever was.

At least screature and I can disagree strongly, on topic, without this 5 year old stupidity.


----------



## SINC

Actually, just pointing out repetitive behaviour that is tiresome, nothing personal at all. Keep on beating the same drum for all I care, but don't expect the critique of the facts to stop. Troll crap, expect the same in return.


----------



## Stink

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL6JC0fwOI4]Found some poo - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*At Issue Panel - more PMO coverup scandal*

Line of the night goes to Bruce - *We're perfect, you're scum*

Fun the whole family can enjoy!

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVgDFfvdVGE[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

Stink said:


> Found some poo - YouTube


damn right it's nothing but STINKEROOS.

Can't get the old fart to shut his trap and try posting on topic. But this stuff is like catnip to them. They're soooo obsessed with me that they can't help it. They minute they see me having a strong disagreement, they're right in there like always like a dirty shirt, obsessed any details of my life. What the other one will be here soon enough. Stamping his as if anyone gives a crap.

What a bunch of pathetic fools. Move on.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Line of the night goes to Bruce - *We're perfect, you're scum*
> 
> Fun the whole family can enjoy!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVgDFfvdVGE


saying the same things I've been saying, all I'm hearing here, is nothing but scripted talking points. Everyone's asking the same questions, why is the PM stonewalling by saying they didn't write any cheque never happened when we KNOW, there would have been a cheque written if the amount was only 32k not 90k, and kept secret!

The coverup continues, and I hope the opposition, and the media keep hounding until the stone walls begin falling and these liars get exposed.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> saying the same things I've been saying, all I'm hearing here, is nothing but scripted talking points. Everyone's asking the same questions, why is the PM stonewalling by saying they didn't write any cheque never happened when we KNOW, there would have been a cheque written if the amount was only 32k not 90k, and kept secret!
> 
> The coverup continues, and I hope the opposition, and the media keep hounding until the stone walls begin falling and these liars get exposed.


This is starting to remind me of the Watergate cover up. The break in was bad enough, but the cover ups laid forth by the various members of Nixon's cabinet and reelection committee was what really sank Nixon in the end. How refreshing it would be for PM Harper to simply come clean and open up as to what he actually knew and to open up the investigation and let the chips fall where they may. We shall see if this ever happens.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Looks like Chong is going to stick his neck out*

I have a lot of time for Chong. Good on him.

Group of Tory Backbenchers Pushing To Limit Prime Minister's Power


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> This is starting to remind me of the Watergate cover up. The break in was bad enough, but the cover ups laid forth by the various members of Nixon's cabinet and reelection committee was what really sank Nixon in the end. How refreshing it would be for PM Harper to simply come clean and open up as to what he actually knew and to open up the investigation and let the chips fall where they may. We shall see if this ever happens.


Harper's responses pretty much are very telling. He refuses to even dignify questions with any kind of an honest answer. He won't even answer many questions at all.

The scripted auto responses I'm hearing pretty much scream coverup.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Harper's responses pretty much are very telling. He refuses to even dignify questions with any kind of an honest answer. He won't even answer many questions at all.
> 
> The scripted auto responses I'm hearing pretty much scream coverup.


What I find sad about PM Harper was that he came to the office of prime minister bringing a breath of fresh air and promises of openness and accountability. I even voted for him once when he won to become PM. I truly feel let down by what has happened since he became PM.


----------



## Macfury

At least you voted for the "most transparent and ethical administration in history" to the south to temper your disappointment.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> What I find sad about PM Harper was that he came to the office of prime minister bringing a breath of fresh air and promises of openness and accountability. *I even voted for him once when he won to become PM.* I truly feel let down by what has happened since he became PM.


Really? I didn't realize you were also a dual citizen of Calgary and St. John's.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Really? I didn't realize you were also a dual citizen of Calgary and St. John's.


No, I voted for the Conservative running for Parliament, Norm Doyle. Thus, a vote for Doyle was a vote for Harper.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> At least you voted for the "most transparent and ethical administration in history" to the south to temper your disappointment.


Well, to be honest, I have been disappointed with Pres. Obama in his second term. I would still vote for him in both elections if I had to do it all over again, but that does not temper my disappointment with his second term accomplishments.


----------



## Rps

What I am seeing with the Cons is the application of Rp's Rules of Government rules 1 and 3.

Rule 1. The role of government is to maintain being elected, not governing.

Rule 3. Governments punishment is based being caught not the actual itself.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> What I am seeing with the Cons is the application of Rp's Rules of Government rules 1 and 3.
> 
> Rule 1. The role of government is to maintain being elected, not governing.
> 
> Rule 3. Governments punishment is based being caught not the actual itself.


ha ha. Yeah. That's pretty much it.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> No, I voted for the Conservative running for Parliament, Norm Doyle. Thus, a vote for Doyle was a vote for Harper.


That's one of the problems with Canadian politics right there.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> *What I am seeing with the Cons* is the application of Rp's Rules of Government rules 1 and 3.
> 
> Rule 1. The role of government is to maintain being elected, not governing.
> 
> Rule 3. Governments punishment is based being caught not the actual itself.


Really you think this is unique to this government?


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> That's one of the problems with Canadian politics right there.


I agree. I would like us to cease being governed by a Constitutional Monarchy in a Westminster Parliamentary system. Better to be a republic and be done with the Queen, her heirs, the GG and Lt. Govs in each province ................ any you would either have an elected Senate or no Senate at all.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> That's one of the problems with Canadian politics right there.


I assume you did not mean that "one of the problems" was me voting?!?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Really you think this is unique to this government?


I don't think it's unique to this government, I'm not sure that many do.

However, one of the main planks of this government, was getting away from this after the adscam debacle, and promises of openness, transparency and accountability. 

That's the problem now, as it appearing to many that they are no better than previous governments in this regard.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Really you think this is unique to this government?


I believe those two rules would apply to almost any Government that ever existed. Along with:

Lie. Lie and lie. Lie even if the truth will serve you better.

To illustrate the last rule we can look at the Duffy/Wallin Turkey shoot or better yet Rob Nicholson's promise that the Harper Government would never again try to revive Bill C30. That would be the same C30 which is back on the Con docket as Bill C13.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I believe those two rules would apply to almost any Government that ever existed. Along with:
> 
> Lie. Lie and lie. Lie even if the truth will serve you better.
> 
> To illustrate the last rule we can look at the Duffy/Wallin Turkey shoot or better yet Rob Nicholson's promise that the Harper Government would never again try to revive Bill C30. That would be the same C30 which is back on the Con docket as Bill C13.


We need someone to come forth and say "Read my lips ........... no new lies."


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Really you think this is unique to this government?


Hi Screature, no it is indeed with all governments, I only highlighted the current lot as the discussion was about Mr. Harper's government.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I assume you did not mean that "one of the problems" was me voting?!?


:lmao: Of course not.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Hi Screature, no it is indeed with all governments, I only highlighted the current lot as the discussion was about Mr. Harper's government.


Ok I see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I assume you did not mean that "one of the problems" was me voting?!?


Nope. The votes that offer a Doxie pawprint instead of a checkmark are the problem.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> :lmao: Of course not.


OK. Just checking. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Nope. The votes that offer a Doxie pawprint instead of a checkmark are the problem.


One must vote with an X or have the ballot invalidated, Macfury ........... even if you are voting for the Rhino Party. Now, it is a different matter in the US ...........

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Liberals take lead in poll as NDP support shifting to Trudeau - The Globe and Mail

I would have thought that the trend would be in favor of the NDP.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Liberals take lead in poll as NDP support shifting to Trudeau - The Globe and Mail
> 
> I would have thought that the trend would be in favor of the NDP.


I would have expected this. Mulcair offers a grim heartlessness that flies in the face of anything Jack Layton championed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I would have expected this. Mulcair offers a grim heartlessness that flies in the face of anything Jack Layton championed.


Mulcair is no Jack Layton, but I feel that he had more substance that Trudeau.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Mulcair is no Jack Layton, *but I feel that he had more substance that Trudeau*.


Well that doesn't take much.


----------



## Macfury

The head of a seeding dandelion has more substance than Trudeau!


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Mulcair is no Jack Layton, but I feel that he had more substance that Trudeau.


That may be so, but that isn't going to be a huge factor when it comes to whether or not Trudeau recreates 'Trudeau mania'.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> That may be so, but that isn't going to be a huge factor when it comes to whether or not Trudeau recreates 'Trudeau mania'.


I was not here in Canada during the "Trudeau mania" days, but I can see how JT could reignite that craze. Still, I feel that he needs some more time in the House, and will need to try and stem the media gaffs of things he says if he wants to be PM. He is NOT the intellect nor the debater that his father was, but he does have to create his own image even if he carries his father's name into battle. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I was not here in Canada during the "Trudeau mania" days, but I can see how JT could reignite that craze. Still, I feel that he needs some more time in the House, and will need to try and stem the media gaffs of things he says if he wants to be PM. He is NOT the intellect nor the debater that his father was, but he does have to create his own image even if he carries his father's name into battle. We shall see.


very true


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> I was not here in Canada during the "Trudeau mania" days, but I can see how JT could reignite that craze. Still, I feel that he needs some more time in the House, and will need to try and stem the media gaffs of things he says if he wants to be PM. He is NOT the intellect nor the debater that his father was, but he does have to create his own image even if he carries his father's name into battle. We shall see.


Perhaps with JT's style he shall move to the Red Chamber and sit upon the Royal Throne therein as befits someone of his lineage and bearing.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I was not here in Canada during the "Trudeau mania" days, but I can see how JT could reignite that craze. Still, I feel that he needs some more time in the House, and will need to try and stem the media gaffs of things he says if he wants to be PM. He is NOT the intellect nor the debater that his father was, but he does have to create his own image even if he carries his father's name into battle. We shall see.


I was extremely young when Trudeau was elected and I took an instant dislike to him--probably my first recollection of a politician. I remember drawing buck teeth on an election poster with an orange crayon and told by my mother that the sign was private property that I must respect.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Perhaps with JT's style he shall move to the Red Chamber and sit upon the Royal Throne therein as befits someone of his lineage and bearing.


Not his style.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I was extremely young when Trudeau was elected and I took an instant dislike to him--probably my first recollection of a politician. I remember drawing buck teeth on an election poster with an orange crayon and told by my mother that the sign was private property that I must respect.


I had heard of Trudeau in that Nixon hated him ........... and any enemy of Nixon's was a friend of mine.

I actually met him once. I was with a friend and his fiancée back in Dec. 1975. We all flew up to NYC from Athens, Georgia where we were working on graduate degrees together at the Univ. of Georgia. I was showing them Rockefeller Center when both of them (both were from Montreal) said "Look!!! There is Prime Minister Trudeau." He had just instituted wage and price controls, as did Pres. Nixon at the time, and Bob, who came from affluence, did not like him all that much. His fiancée was a "Trudeaumania" groupie, and was thrilled to see him from afar. I said that we should go speak to them, and both said "We can't do that." "Why not?" I replied. He had two body guards (RCMP in plainclothes, I assume) and was just looking over at the huge Christmas tree. 

So, being the brash person that I am, I walked over and said "Bonjour, Mr. Trudeau, and welcome to New York City." I was about five feet from him and the two body guards started to step in front of him. I did not attempt to approach him or shake his hand. I then said that my two friends, both from Montreal, recognized him, but as a native New Yorker, I wanted to greet him.

To make a long story short, my two friends from Montreal joined the light discussion, mainly about NYC at Christmas time. I then took a picture of PM Trudeau, Bob and his fiancée. Sadly, when the two of them divorced, she kept the picture and I can't find the negative from way back when. C'est la vie.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I had heard of Trudeau in that Nixon hated him ........... and any enemy of Nixon's was a friend of mine.


Nixon later apologized for the remark--for which I never forgave Nixon.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Nixon later apologized for the remark--for which I never forgave Nixon.


I always found this conversation strange. 

Richard Nixon, Pierre Trudeau conversation about Watergate released | CTV News

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ysdAm3bqw[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I always found this conversation strange


It is! Thanks for bringing it to my attention--I missed that story.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I was not here in Canada during the "Trudeau mania" days, but I can see how JT could reignite that craze. Still, I feel that *he needs some more time in the House, and will need to try and stem the media gaffs of things he says if he wants to be PM.* He is NOT the intellect nor the debater that his father was, but he does have to create his own image even if he carries his father's name into battle. We shall see.


He has had plenty of time in the House... enough to shout out that another MP was an asshole for which he was reprimanded, as so he should be (he did offer a grandiose theatrical apology at the time).

He is a bit of a loose canon (like his Mom in that regard) who quite frankly doesn't have the intellect for the job and would be an embarrassment on the intentional stage.

If by any happenstance the Libs form government in 2015 you can bet your bottom dollar Trudeau will just be a puppet leader with more senior/experienced/knowledgeable/intelligent/diplomatic/well read/good communicators/non-ham/people devoted to public service/not riding the coat tails of their father people pulling the strings.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> He has had plenty of time in the House... enough to shout out that another MP was an asshole for which he was reprimanded, as so he should be (he did offer a grandiose theatrical apology at the time).
> 
> He is a bit of a loose canon (like his Mom in that regard) who quite frankly doesn't have the intellect for the job and would be an embarrassment on the intentional stage.
> 
> If by any happenstance the Libs form government in 2015 you can bet your bottom dollar Trudeau will just be a puppet leader with more senior/experienced/knowledgeable/intelligent/diplomatic/well read/good communicators/non-ham/people devoted to public service/not riding the coat tails of their father people pulling the strings.


Some valid points, screature. Still, if the country's mood swings away from PM Harper and the Conservatives, and is not ready to accept the NDP as the ruling party, the Liberals might just take over as a minority government. We shall see.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I always found this conversation strange.
> 
> Richard Nixon, Pierre Trudeau conversation about Watergate released | CTV News
> 
> Nixon to Pierre Trudeau - YouTube





Macfury said:


> It is! Thanks for bringing it to my attention--I missed that story.


IMO it wasn't strange at all.

It was a courtesy call and I think Nixon acknowledged it as much... The only thing that could be construed as "strange" was PET's comment. But even at that I think PET was merely being truthful one world leader to another.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Some valid points, screature. Still, if the country's mood swings away from PM Harper and the Conservatives, and is not ready to accept the NDP as the ruling party, *the Liberals might just take over as a minority government.*
> 
> We shall see.


I think they could indeed. That is my fear. 

Time will tell.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The only thing that could be construed as "strange" was PET's comment.


That was what was strange. Trudeau wasn't known for being the nicest guy on the block and the call sounded like more than a simple courtesy call.


----------



## Rps

I grew up in the Trudeau era , as did many here it would seem. To me his legacy lies in that, at least in his mind, Canada was not a third world country and that we should take pride in ourselves. Prior to him all politicians I remember either had the fire that we were still a British colony or that we were the Americans poorer cousins.

But getting back to the current crop of parliamentarians, and I would be interested in all your thoughts on this point ..... When I vote, I vote to oust a government ..... And it sounds like many of us believe that it doesn't matter who we put in we get the same old same old ..... Has The Harper government really performed so badly that it deserves to be tossed out? I almost never vote Conservative, but this is a question I am asking myself.... All governments have scandals .....is this crop any worse than the others?


----------



## Macfury

I think of Trudeau as someone who was more interested in running Canada as some sort of social experiment, rather than governing it on behalf of the people.

I think that this group of scandals is fairly mild in the scheme of things. Overall, I believe thing are running relatively well--and that no group waiting in the wings is likely to be able to do it better at this point.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> I grew up in the Trudeau era , as did many here it would seem. To me his legacy lies in that, at least in his mind, Canada was not a third world country and that we should take pride in ourselves. Prior to him all politicians I remember either had the fire that we were still a British colony or that we were the Americans poorer cousins.
> 
> But getting back to the current crop of parliamentarians, and I would be interested in all your thoughts on this point ..... When I vote, I vote to oust a government ..... And it sounds like many of us believe that it doesn't matter who we put in we get the same old same old ..... Has The Harper government really performed so badly that it deserves to be tossed out? I almost never vote Conservative, but this is a question I am asking myself.... All governments have scandals .....is this crop any worse than the others?


Nope pretty much business as usual for this crop of crooks.

Bigger worry for me is the never ending attempt to pass the privacy assault bill, borrowing money from the IMF, and the seemingly insatiable desire to put Canada's troops in harms way where the only motive is to line the coffers of the weapons manufacturers, oil companies and banksters.

The inability of the Harpo gang to balance the budget has to be of an extreme concern. While his worshippers point to a weak economy, the truth is the Harpolites have enjoyed a long stretch of artificially low interest rates which should have more than offset the effects of a weak economy. Instead of taking advantage of this break to reduce the debt load, they continue to pile debt on top of the debt. 

Since I know a number of people who will be impacted to some degree or another, I am extremely disappointed that the Finance Minister refuses to tell the IRS to FATCA itself, that they cannot and should not tell Parliament to rewrite our privacy and banking laws.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I grew up in the Trudeau era , as did many here it would seem. To me his legacy lies in that, at least in his mind, Canada was not a third world country and that we should take pride in ourselves. Prior to him all politicians I remember either had the fire that we were still a British colony or that we were the Americans poorer cousins.
> 
> But getting back to the current crop of parliamentarians, and I would be interested in all your thoughts on this point .....* When I vote, I vote to oust a government* ..... And it sounds like many of us believe that it doesn't matter who we put in we get the same old same old ..... Has The Harper government really performed so badly that it deserves to be tossed out? I almost never vote Conservative, but this is a question I am asking myself.... All governments have scandals .....is this crop any worse than the others?


This is what I tell people all the time, Canadians on average don't vote for things, they vote against them, it has shown itself to be true time and again.

But to answer your question no this government is not as bad as previous governments in terms of "scandals" at least when it comes to the amount of money involved, for example the current Senate Affair is peanuts compared to Adscam.

In terms of ethics they are probably about on par with those that came before.


----------



## groovetube

But the current scandal, is NOT about the amount of money. Why is it that conservative supporters always just fall back on the amount?

It's about the coverups that went on, which is exactly what this government campaigned against. Harper's non answers, are only making this much worse. Despite the quick waving of the hands, no there was no cheque, it's much less money than the liberals, etc etc, doesn't justify the rot we're beginning to see.

As for voting against things, I agree. Canadians voted against the very things we're seeing from the PMO, and clearly we're now seeing the reaction from Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

nice rant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750WMkyWeuA


----------



## screature

Inside 24 Sussex

An interesting read. Just curious how others here feel about 24 Sussex. Do you really care that it is a heritage building and so it should be renovated at the cost of at least $10M or would it be better to just build an entirely new residence on the property?

IMO time marches on and it isn't that great an architectural marvel that it needs be renovated at exorbitant cost. My feeling is save what can be saved that is significant historical value and put those artifacts on display in a museum (maybe even on the grounds of 24 Sussex in a wing of a new residence) and build a new modern residence with all the technological advancements that we currently have, making it green and clean.

Thoughts?


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Why is it that conservative supporters always just fall back on the amount?


Because it is a paltry among compared to the Liberal debacle with Adscam, that's why. The principle is just as bad granted, but the dollars are minor in comparison. Boils down to who were the bigger crooks and that is abundantly clear and it isn't the Conservatives.


----------



## screature

'Angry' Mulcair Flyers Weren't Personal Attack, Liberals Say 

Too funny and ironic/hypocritical. :lmao:


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Because it is a paltry among compared to the Liberal debacle with Adscam, that's why. The principle is just as bad granted, but the dollars are minor in comparison. Boils down to who were the bigger crooks and that is abundantly clear and it isn't the Conservatives.


Not to mention there are no crooks involved with the Senate "scandal" aside from the senators who claimed ineligible expenses.

PMO just wanted Duffy to pay back his expenses and when he refused Wright intervened to give the money back. What a "scandal" that is, putting money back into the public coffer.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not to mention there are no crooks involved with the Senate "scandal" aside from the senators who claimed ineligible expenses.
> 
> PMO just wanted Duffy to pay back his expenses and when he refused Wright intervened to give the money back. What a "scandal" that is, putting money back into the public coffer.


But that's not exactly how things were planned now was it. RCMP documents show that Gerstein was prepared to write Duffy a cheque for 32k, and there is evidence of the attempts at audit tampering, to coverup the Duffy affair.

So no, this isn't open and shut the PM just wanted Duffy to pay the money back, end of story.

As much as conservatives really wish it to be, and keep repeating the same talking points we hear from the PM in his non-answers, and his outright refusal to address why nothing has been done to address the other actors in the PMO who either lied, or misled the PM (or worse the PM knew all along which is my, and many others guess if you read newspapers...)

So you can chalk it up to the 'biased media', the opposition, blah blah, but neither of these created this brewing scandal whatsoever.

It has ZERO to do with th amount of money. But then, perhaps ethics, isn't a conservative strongpoint? Is this what I'm hearing based on the insistence it's about the amount of money? Really??


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> But that's not exactly how things were planned now was it. RCMP documents show that Gerstein was prepared to write Duffy a cheque for 32k, and there is evidence of the attempts at audit tampering, to coverup the Duffy affair.
> 
> So no, this isn't open and shut the PM just wanted Duffy to pay the money back, end of story.
> 
> As much as conservatives really wish it to be, and keep repeating the same talking points we hear from the PM in his non-answers, and his outright refusal to address why nothing has been done to address the other actors in the PMO who either lied, or misled the PM (or worse the PM knew all along which is my, and many others guess if you read newspapers...)
> 
> So you can chalk it up to the 'biased media', the opposition, blah blah, but neither of these created this brewing scandal whatsoever.
> 
> It has ZERO to do with th amount of money. But then, perhaps ethics, isn't a conservative strongpoint? Is this what I'm hearing based on the insistence it's about the amount of money? Really??


Yes, really. 

- There was no cheque that you keep referring to.

- The PM has stated many times he did not know and the RCMP agree there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

- The 'scandal' is not brewing, it's over. All that is left is due punishment.

- The money comparison to Adscam is a valid one and it speaks volumes about how bad each 'scandal' was.


----------



## kps

Why is this such a big scandal worthy of comparison to Adscam? It is troublesome in terms of expense abuse, but it only involves private repayment money and not public taxpayer money. Why drag Duffy through what seems like an attack on Harper more that Duffy's wrongdoing, kick him out of the senate and be done with it. This continued obsession seems like a deflection by the media and the opposition.

Unlike $40mil of tax payer money with Adscam and Ontario's ORNG, eHealth and scandals to come like gas plant cancellations. I still say McGuinty and Wynn should be criminally charged. Would also like to see how Trudeau would defend them.

If I'm wrong in seeing it this way…I'm all ears.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Why is this such a big scandal worthy of comparison to Adscam? It is troublesome in terms of expense abuse, but it only involves private repayment money and not public taxpayer money. Why drag Duffy through what seems like an attack on Harper more that Duffy's wrongdoing, kick him out of the senate and be done with it. This continued obsession seems like a deflection by the media and the opposition.
> 
> Unlike $40mil of tax payer money with Adscam and Ontario's ORNG, eHealth and scandals to come like gas plant cancellations. I still say McGuinty and Wynn should be criminally charged. Would also like to see how Trudeau would defend them.
> 
> If I'm wrong in seeing it this way…I'm all ears.


Speaking of deflection... :roll eyes:

The current scandal happening in Ottawa has nothing to do with McSquinty and his brand of stupidity. If he can be charged, so be it! I never liked the guy. I find it interesting how I hear about how the conservative provincial government is not the federal conservatives, yet somehow, McSquinty is one and the same as Trudeau. Nice try 

Back to Ottawa. It's about ethics, and the attempt at a coverup, and attempts to whitewash the audit. So, the -only- thing that would bother you, about a government is money? You don't care about coverups, lying, skulduggery to protect their own within the PMO? You're not interested in whether the PM lied and misled Canadians not to mention perhaps have been in on it?

I am. And so are a hell of a lot of people quite obviously. Not every scandal, is merely about a dollar amount.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> If I'm wrong in seeing it this way…I'm all ears.


Put on some pink NDP lenses and the world will seem like an ugly place to anyone.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Speaking of deflection... :roll eyes:
> 
> The current scandal happening in Ottawa has nothing to do with McSquinty and his brand of stupidity. If he can be charged, so be it! I never liked the guy. I find it interesting how I hear about how the conservative provincial government is not the federal conservatives, yet somehow, McSquinty is one and the same as Trudeau. Nice try
> 
> Back to Ottawa. It's about ethics, and the attempt at a coverup, and attempts to whitewash the audit. So, the -only- thing that would bother you, about a government is money? You don't care about coverups, lying, skulduggery to protect their own within the PMO? You're not interested in whether the PM lied and misled Canadians not to mention perhaps have been in on it?
> 
> I am. And so are a hell of a lot of people quite obviously. Not every scandal, is merely about a dollar amount.


You are one of the very few. I say again, this so-called sandal is OVER not _"The current scandal happening in Ottawa"_. All that we now await is the punishment for Duffy et al.

We all agreed the ethics were poor so you can stop harping about it. It's done and it was bad. Case closed.

I say again, the RCMP found *NO EVIDENCE* the PM knew of the repayment deal, so that too is done,

You sound like a broken record. It's time to drop it.


----------



## groovetube

Christopher Montgomery: Senate white knight on Conservative blacklist? - Politics - CBC News

Yes this is interesting isn't it.



> A friend of Montgomery said he felt out of favour; that he was not seen as a team player.


I guess not eh? Well good on him! You would have thought this was a desirable trait...

Well it'll be interesting to watch as the RCMP investigation continues and to see f more items become known.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Inside 24 Sussex
> 
> An interesting read. Just curious how others here feel about 24 Sussex. Do you really care that it is a heritage building and so it should be renovated at the cost of at least $10M or would it be better to just build an entirely new residence on the property?
> 
> IMO time marches on and it isn't that great an architectural marvel that it needs be renovated at exorbitant cost. My feeling is save what can be saved that is significant historical value and put those artifacts on display in a museum (maybe even on the grounds of 24 Sussex in a wing of a new residence) and build a new modern residence with all the technological advancements that we currently have, making it green and clean.
> 
> Thoughts?


Fix it. Sacrificing heritage on the phony altar of green would be a travesty.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Fix it. Sacrificing heritage on the phony altar of green would be a travesty.


Well I don't know.

If the residence could be brought up to "speed " and be energy efficient as well as cost efficient then maybe, but based on the article it seems unlikely. 

As I said, it isn't an architectural marvel and time moves on. So if it is more cost effective to tear it down and build a new modern, energy efficient and in the long run cheaper residence to maintain, I have no trouble with that.

These are public dollars we are talking about. And who aside from heritage geeks really care about maintaining a building that has outlived its usefulness?

If it can be saved cost effectively, sure, why not, but if it cant' then IMO it should be torn down and a new residence should be put in place... Nothing lasts forever.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> And who aside from heritage geeks really care about maintaining a building that has outlived its usefulness?


Heritage _supporters_. However, I can see your point if esthetics mean little to you.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Inside 24 Sussex
> 
> An interesting read. Just curious how others here feel about 24 Sussex. Do you really care that it is a heritage building and so it should be renovated at the cost of at least $10M or would it be better to just build an entirely new residence on the property?
> 
> IMO time marches on and it isn't that great an architectural marvel that it needs be renovated at exorbitant cost. My feeling is save what can be saved that is significant historical value and put those artifacts on display in a museum (maybe even on the grounds of 24 Sussex in a wing of a new residence) and build a new modern residence with all the technological advancements that we currently have, making it green and clean.
> 
> Thoughts?


Why not save the facade and put a modern building behind it? Cheaper, better, saves the illusion of sameness and heritage. It is done in the case of thousands of historical buildings that become structurally unsound. Why not in this case? History preserved in appearance, reality served in realistic costs and efficiency for living quarters.


----------



## groovetube

Accusations that private health details of Canadians being shared with U.S. border agents sparks probe | National Post

I wonder if we will ever get an explanation as to how personal information like health is getting into the US's hands.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Speaking of deflection... :roll eyes:


Don't roll your eyes too much they might pop out of your head...



> The current scandal happening in Ottawa has nothing to do with McSquinty and his brand of stupidity. If he can be charged, so be it! I never liked the guy. I find it interesting how I hear about how the conservative provincial government is not the federal conservatives, yet somehow, McSquinty is one and the same as Trudeau. Nice try


Last time I checked Ontario was part of Canada, totally apropos and Duffy didn't burn Ontario tax payers for nearly 3 Billion. Let's go after the real crooks and not made up ones.



> Back to Ottawa. It's about ethics, and the attempt at a coverup, and attempts to whitewash the audit. So, the -only- thing that would bother you, about a government is money? You don't care about coverups, lying, skulduggery to protect their own within the PMO? You're not interested in whether the PM lied and misled Canadians not to mention perhaps have been in on it?


You're acting like you've got all the insider information and Harper is the first and only... 
This whole thing is a joke.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> You're acting like you've got all the insider information and Harper is the first and only...


It's possible that he pounded his tom-toms outside the House of Commons...


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Don't roll your eyes too much they might pop out of your head...
> 
> 
> 
> Last time I checked Ontario was part of Canada, totally apropos and Duffy didn't burn Ontario tax payers for nearly 3 Billion. Let's go after the real crooks and not made up ones.
> 
> 
> 
> You're acting like you've got all the insider information and Harper is the first and only...
> This whole thing is a joke.


oh I know you're busy rolling your eyes too. :roll eyes: :lmao:

No, no insider information, just the stuff you conservative types don't wanna hear it seems 

And yes, McGulity should rot. But that's another topic. But I won't stamp my feet and say MOVE ON! or some such yelling. Ontario politic is another disturbing pile of dung. In more ways than one.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> You're not interested in whether the PM lied and misled Canadians not to mention perhaps have been in on it?


In on what? Catching people padding their expense accounts and making them pay it back? I want him to be doing that, so why would it concern me?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Why not save the facade and put a modern building behind it? Cheaper, better, saves the illusion of sameness and heritage. It is done in the case of thousands of historical buildings that become structurally unsound. Why not in this case? History preserved in appearance, reality served in realistic costs and efficiency for living quarters.


It sounds like much of the problem is not 24 Sussex but all of the other buildings on the premises--the residence forms just 20 per cent of he buildings on the premises. So save 24 Sussex and knock over the rest of those buildings--including the indoor pool.

As Harper stalls renovations, energy costs keep climbing at 24 Sussex | canada.com



> The bills include energy costs for five separate buildings on the property, and the private residence section of the home accounts for about 20 per cent of the total square footage, the NCC says.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> oh I know you're busy rolling your eyes too. :roll eyes: :lmao:
> 
> No, no insider information, just the stuff you conservative types don't wanna hear it seems
> 
> And yes, McGulity should rot. But that's another topic. But I won't stamp my feet and say MOVE ON! or some such yelling. Ontario politic is another disturbing pile of dung. In more ways than one.


I'll wait for the final verdict if we ever get that far. I just think this whole so called "scandal" is being blown out of proportion by the opposition and the media….but hey, that's just me.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I'll wait for the final verdict if we ever get that far. I just think this whole so called "scandal" is being blown out of proportion by the opposition and the media….but hey, that's just me.


You forgot the RCMP. Apparently they're in on this conspiracy too.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> In on what? Catching people padding their expense accounts and making them pay it back? I want him to be doing that, so why would it concern me?


Not only that--private money was being used to pay back those expenses. Why can't this scandal follow the traditional blueprint and use public funds?


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> In on what? Catching people padding their expense accounts and making them pay it back? I want him to be doing that, so why would it concern me?


Because, the scandal really isn't so much about the funds. Conservatives are scrambling to make this merely about Duffy improperly billing taxpayers. 

It's gone way past that, into this alleged coverup. That's the problem. No matter how many supporters wave their hands, clamp their ears and shout 'move on!'... this part of the story has not finished yet.

We've heard the story change as it goes along. The recent polls showing very few Canadians actually believing Harper's story says a lot as well.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> You forgot the RCMP. Apparently they're in on this conspiracy too.


How many times does one have to say it to get it drummed into your head? The RCMP found *NO EVIDENCE* against the PM. Jaysus man give it up!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Heritage _supporters_. However, I can see your point if esthetics mean little to you.


*A*esthetics mean very much to me, but there in no accounting for taste IMO. 

24 Sussex is not to my taste all. Nothing special at all in terms of design, IMO.

It is not like it is the pyramids, it is 150 years old, a baby. If it makes more economical sense to tear it down and build a new residence I am all for it.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> I'll wait for the final verdict if we ever get that far. I just think this whole so called "scandal" is being blown out of proportion by the opposition and the media…*.but hey, that's just me.*


Not just you kps.. not just you.

Some people still believe in due process and innocent until proven guilty.

It isn't the way of the opposition and media but thank god we still have laws and courts in the land, otherwise it could look like this:










or this:










or this:










or this:










or this:










etc., etc., etc...

Oh wait!! That is what it looks like now as well....

Same as it ever was...

And thus we dance....


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not just you kps.. not just you.
> 
> Some people still believe in due process and innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> It isn't the way of the opposition and media but thank god we still have laws and courts in the land, otherwise it could look like this:


I have no issue with due process, but I do with some who demand we stop talking about it. It seems they can't help stamping their feet and demanding people shut up I guess. Same old.

One side says it's a done deal. Scandal over. I'm saying, not so fast. As far as I know, the investigations are NOT over.

Let's remember none of the liberal PMs had any evidence against them in adscam either. The liberals ended up punished anyway. Regardless of how much public money was involved, or not, if the Public sees a coverup and lies that far up, they aren't going to forget it. The cons better hope there isn't more between now and the election.


----------



## SINC

For the record, no one here can holler or stomp their feet, that type of drum beat is tiresome as well. All anyone can do is type words. That's it.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> *A*esthetics mean very much to me, but there in no accounting for taste IMO.
> 
> 24 Sussex is not to my taste all. Nothing special at all in terms of design, IMO.
> 
> It is not like it is the pyramids, it is 150 years old, a baby. If it makes more economical sense to tear it down and build a new residence I am all for it.


I prefer "aesthetics" but everyone keeps jumping on the spelling! I meant that if something doesn't appeal to someone, they aren't likely to want to preserve it. I will say that Sussex is not to my taste either, but it does have some history to it. If that report is correct, then I would say they should save the main building and replace the others.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Not only that--private money was being used to pay back those expenses. Why can't this scandal follow the traditional blueprint and use public funds?


It follows a new model of private-public partnerships.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> It follows a new model of private-public partnerships.


:lmao:

On the issue of 24 Sussex, I'd support restoring the original building. The Harper government has blown waaaay more than the 10 million on other far more frivolous things that that.

Tearing down the original structure, and building a new one, and this is no small residence, isn't going to be a whole lot cheaper in the scheme of things. Cost overruns etc.

However, Harper could follow earlier reform principles and forgo the residence altogether. Sell it like everything else!


----------



## Dr.G.

I was just talking to a neighbor who is a classic old-time Conservative. He has voted for the Conservatives since his first vote for "Dief, the Chief, way back when" (his words). He is outraged over this Senate scandal and how PM Harper is dealing with it. He is a regular contributor to the Conservative Party, but said "Not any more." He said that the suggestion of using party contributed funds to pay for Duffy's penalty was, in fact, using taxpayer's money since he received a tax deduction for that contribution. I never considered that point. Interesting.

Still, if PM Harper loses the support of Ron, then he is not going to see this situation just disappear. We shall see.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Inside 24 Sussex
> 
> An interesting read. Just curious how others here feel about 24 Sussex. Do you really care that it is a heritage building and so it should be renovated at the cost of at least $10M or would it be better to just build an entirely new residence on the property?


By my rough estimate, tearing it down and rebuilding isn't going to be a lot cheaper... I assume the Prime Minister's house should be a high quality build. 

If you build it in the incredibly cheap way housing is built today, sure, you could shave off a bit more, but you're setting yourself up for problems down the road--and you imagine the outcry, we spend X number of dollars building this place just a few years ago, why do we need to spend more now? Older buildings do require maintenance, and regular upgrading, but their basic structure is often much more soundly built than new.

Someone mentioned preserving the facade and rebuilding the interior. Not really cheaper. In fact, often more expensive--melding two different methods of building can be structurally challenging. You may as well renovate. (And, by the sounds of the article, re-building the entire interior doesn't sound like it's justified.)

The bigger concern in my mind is how did they let it get so bad in the first place? Why wasn't money spent regularly repairing and upgraded the place? The problems described for the most part sounds like decades of deferred maintenance. I see almost all of the same issues in neglected apartment buildings. Nothing described in the article sounds like it justifies a teardown--that's all normal maintenance that should have been down all along. 

Most of the problems described are water and plumbing related--leaks that have long gone unnoticed and unrepaired, and therefore created rot and mould. Then it sounds like the electrical and HVAC systems are in need of an upgrade, and probably some new insulation while you are at it. None of that is so difficult to do--I've done much of the same--though yes, it will cost money. Most of this would be much cheaper overall if money had been spent properly upgrading the place all along.

If it's as bad as this, the lack of care has to have been going on for at least 20 years, if 30, 40 or 50 years.

Honestly, I wonder about the optics of not spending on maintenance vs the optics of being pennywise and pound-foolish.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The bigger concern in my mind is how did they let it get so bad in the first place? Why wasn't money spent regularly repairing and upgraded the place? The problems described for the most part sounds like decades of deferred maintenance. I see almost all of the same issues in neglected apartment buildings. Nothing described in the article sounds like it justifies a teardown--that's all normal maintenance that should have been down all along.


This is all part of the grotesque failure of Public Works Canada (now PWAGSC) mismanaging every one of the buildings in Ottawa's historic portfolio for decades. The jobs they've done often cost three times what they should and drain the budget.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I was just talking to a neighbor who is a classic old-time Conservative. He has voted for the Conservatives since his first vote for "Dief, the Chief, way back when" (his words). He is outraged over this Senate scandal and how PM Harper is dealing with it. He is a regular contributor to the Conservative Party, but said "Not any more." He said that the suggestion of using party contributed funds to pay for Duffy's penalty was, in fact, using taxpayer's money since he received a tax deduction for that contribution. I never considered that point. Interesting.
> 
> Still, if PM Harper loses the support of Ron, then he is not going to see this situation just disappear. We shall see.


nail on the head. I keep hearing, 'there was no cheque'. Completely ignoring that the RCMP discovered that there absolutely would have been a cheque from conservative donations to coverup Duffy, if the amount was 32k. I hadn't thought of the tax deductible thing. Good point!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It follows a new model of private-public partnerships.


Good one!


----------



## groovetube

Why Canada banned pot (science had nothing to do with it) | Toronto Star

An interesting timeline on the pot laws in Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> nail on the head. I keep hearing, 'there was no cheque'. Completely ignoring that the RCMP discovered that there absolutely would have been a cheque from conservative donations to coverup Duffy, if the amount was 32k. I hadn't thought of the tax deductible thing. Good point!


Well, it was not my point, gt. Ron pointed out that his contributions each year to the Conservative Party is a tax deduction for him. Thus, Revenue Canada gets less revenue. If those funds were used to pay for Duffy's expense claims, then tax-deductible funds would have been used. Ron also speculated as to whether Wright could write off some of the "loan" to Duffy, or is Duffy was charged interest??? The main problem for PM Harper is losing the support of someone like Ron, especially if it is outside of NL. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Well, it was not my point, gt. Ron pointed out that his contributions each year to the Conservative Party is a tax deduction for him. Thus, Revenue Canada gets less revenue. If those funds were used to pay for Duffy's expense claims, then tax-deductible funds would have been used. Ron also speculated as to whether Wright could write off some of the "loan" to Duffy, or is Duffy was charged interest??? The main problem for PM Harper is losing the support of someone like Ron, especially if it is outside of NL. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I'm confused here, that's what I was referring to. His donation being tax deductible, and in turn, being used to pay Duffy's improper expenses.

I was just saying that I keep hearing people say, 'there was no cheque, case closed'. But the disturbing thing is, as your friend is saying, there would have been if the amount was 32k, and yes his donations to that money is tax deductible. 

In any case, it seems this whole thing is far from over, as the investigation is still ongoing.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> nail on the head. I keep hearing, 'there was no cheque'. Completely ignoring that the RCMP discovered that there absolutely would have been a cheque from conservative donations to coverup Duffy, if the amount was 32k. I hadn't thought of the tax deductible thing. Good point!


Would you mind explaining how you "hear" people typing here? Try as I may, I cannot.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I'm confused here, that's what I was referring to. His donation being tax deductible, and in turn, being used to pay Duffy's improper expenses.
> 
> I was just saying that I keep hearing people say, 'there was no cheque, case closed'. But the disturbing thing is, as your friend is saying, there would have been if the amount was 32k, and yes his donations to that money is tax deductible.
> 
> In any case, it seems this whole thing is far from over, as the investigation is still ongoing.


No, I was saying that it was not my idea, but rather Ron's idea. I had not thought of it. Personally, either way I think that it was improper/wrong/a criminal offense maybe. Yes, it is far from over. When the Senate committee did not want to hear from the Delloite accountant who dealt with this account, it only kept the issue on the front burner. The "case closed" issue can't be used since everyone from the PM down the line keeps using the statement "I can't respond in that it is being investigated by the RCMP". 

Irving Gerstein's calls to Deloitte: 3 things we've learned - Inside Politics

Senators block key Deloitte witness on Mike Duffy audit call - Politics - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

Ah, I see. Perhaps I need another coffee.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Ah, I see. Perhaps I need another coffee.


Well, coffee helps me when I am grading. A wise decision.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> No, I was saying that it was not my idea, but rather Ron's idea. I had not thought of it. Personally, either way I think that it was improper/wrong/a criminal offense maybe. Yes, it is far from over. When the Senate committee did not want to hear from the Delloite accountant who dealt with this account, it only kept the issue on the front burner. The "case closed" issue can't be used since everyone from the PM down the line keeps using the statement "I can't respond in that it is being investigated by the RCMP".
> 
> Irving Gerstein's calls to Deloitte: 3 things we've learned - Inside Politics
> 
> Senators block key Deloitte witness on Mike Duffy audit call - Politics - CBC News


It seems that Conservatives always view any money surrounding elected officials as "Tax Money." Whether it is or not.

If any other party was involved with the payback of Senator expenses (read Liberal) the scream, hue and cry would be all about the tax money from Conservatives. 

Also referring back to due process, how are we to know sure, the "four senators" did any wrong?

As the Deloitte auditors pointed out "the rule are not clear." Perhaps what the four senators did was legal and proper, "every business" for all Senators. 

Conservatives seemingly didn't want the "Base" to know about Conservative's entitled to their * ENTITLEMENTS,[ /B] they just wanted to prevent the chatter and to hell with process.*


----------



## Dr.G.

Maybe so, BigDL, but the move to stifle this "chatter" is backfiring on the Conservatives. As each new piece of evidence comes to light it just makes PM Harper look as if he is hiding something. It was the same way with Nixon during Watergate. It was the cover up that did in Pres. Nixon. PM Harper would do well by not taking this base for granted. I don't see them switching parties, as I did when I first voted for Harper as a strong message against the Liberals, but they could choose to "sit it out" comes the next election. Should this happen, he is back to a minority government, at best. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> No, I was saying that it was not my idea, but rather Ron's idea. I had not thought of it. Personally, either way I think that it was improper/wrong/a criminal offense maybe. Yes, it is far from over. * When the Senate committee did not want to hear from the Delloite accountant who dealt with this account, it only kept the issue on the front burner.* The "case closed" issue can't be used since everyone from the PM down the line keeps using the statement "I can't respond in that it is being investigated by the RCMP".
> 
> Irving Gerstein's calls to Deloitte: 3 things we've learned - Inside Politics
> 
> Senators block key Deloitte witness on Mike Duffy audit call - Politics - CBC News



This is wrong Dr. G. the Senate heard from all the accountants that worked on the audit and they all said they were not interfered with. Who they voted not to bring before the committee was a Deloitte partner Michael Runia who made the call to Garry Timm the head of the Duffy audit. 

As I quoted before:



> Gary Timm, who was in charge of Duffy's audit, told senators on the committee that Runia phoned him once.
> 
> "He wanted to know if Senator Duffy were to repay, how much would that be. I told him I can't divulge or disclose any confidential information. He understood my reply and I directed him to public information," listing senator entitlements, Timm said.
> 
> "It was a short call and it ended there."
> 
> Asked whether Timm tried to find out why and on whose behalf Runia was calling, Timm said no.
> 
> "I wanted to keep everything confidential and I wanted that call, like I said, to end shortly... He called me about that one question," Timm said.


Also he went on to say:



> Timm said he then informed his co-lead auditor, Alan Stewart, and his superior, Peter Dent, about the call. The three decided that they wouldn’t report the call to their client, the Senate, because no confidential information had been leaked, nor did it have any effect on their conclusions.
> 
> “It didn’t affect our objectivity,” Dent said. “It had no bearing on the work we were doing. We didn’t have any greater context to the call.”


There was no interference according to the auditors themselves. There was one call from Runia, one question asked and no answer given.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> This is wrong Dr. G. the Senate heard from all the accountants that worked on the audit and they all said they were not interfered with. Who they voted not to bring before the committee was a Deloitte partner Michael Runia who made the call to Garry Timm the head of the Duffy audit.
> 
> As I quoted before:
> 
> 
> 
> Also he went on to say:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no interference according to the auditors themselves. There was one call from Runia, one question asked and no answer given.


"An RCMP affidavit released last week suggests that Michael Runia called a more junior Deloitte employee at the behest of Conservative Senator Irving Gerstein as the Prime Minister's Office and party leadership scrambled to rein in a scandal over Duffy's spending.

Runia is the Ontario managing partner for Deloitte's audit section and the auditor of record for the Conservative Fund of Canada, the Conservative Party's fundraising arm.

Elections Canada records show Runia regularly donates the maximum allowable amount to the Conservative Party.

While the Senate's internal economy committee invited three Deloitte representatives to Thursday's meeting, Runia wasn't one of them."

Having Runia testify would have given support to the argument that the confidentiality of the report was maintained. His being a contributor and his not being asked to testify and lay the matter to rest is not helping ending this debate. It only adds fuel to the fire.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *This is all part of the grotesque failure of Public Works Canada (now PWAGSC) mismanaging every one of the buildings in Ottawa's historic portfolio for decades.* The jobs they've done often cost three times what they should and drain the budget.


Actually Macfury 24 Sussex is not under the jurisdiction of PWGSC but of the NCC.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> "An RCMP affidavit released last week suggests that Michael Runia called a more junior Deloitte employee at the behest of Conservative Senator Irving Gerstein as the Prime Minister's Office and party leadership scrambled to rein in a scandal over Duffy's spending.
> 
> Runia is the Ontario managing partner for Deloitte's audit section and the auditor of record for the Conservative Fund of Canada, the Conservative Party's fundraising arm.
> 
> Elections Canada records show Runia regularly donates the maximum allowable amount to the Conservative Party.
> 
> While the Senate's internal economy committee invited three Deloitte representatives to Thursday's meeting, Runia wasn't one of them."
> 
> Having Runia testify would have given support to the argument that the confidentiality of the report was maintained. His being a contributor and his not being asked to testify and lay the matter to rest is not helping ending this debate. It only adds fuel to the fire.


All of this is true but it is not what you stated when you said:



> the Senate committee did not want to hear from the Delloite accountant who dealt with this account


He was not the " Delloite (sic) accountant who dealt with this account". That is where you were wrong and why I pointed it out. Garry Timm was, as was Alan Stewart and Peter Dent.

They were the three auditors working on the Duffy file, they all appeared before the Senate Committee and they all said they were not interfered with. 

Again, one phone call from Runia, one question asked, no answer given. No interference.

Those are the facts as we know them based on testimony by the auditors themselves.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Actually Macfury 24 Sussex is not under the jurisdiction of PWGSC but of the NCC.


Interesting. I thought PWGSC handled actual maintenance contracts while NCC set policy.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Interesting. I thought PWGSC handled actual maintenance contracts while NCC set policy.


From the article I linked to:



> Since 1986, the house has been managed by the National Capital Commission





> “ ... it is not normal to have this many tripped breakers everywhere without good reason,” France Tremblay, project manager of special projects for official residences with the National Capital Commission, complained in a July 7, 2011 email to house manager Roger Charbonneau. Tremblay said the electrical problem caused power outages “when the house was full of guests.”
> 
> * “Yesterday the guys painted the room ceiling and today watermarks were already reappearing,” wrote Tremblay to Marc Dostaler, property manager of official residences with the NCC, in 2011.


I don't see anywhere in the article where PWGSC is referenced. I could have missed something but as I read the article it is the NCC that is responsible for 24 Sussex.


----------



## Sonal

Whoever handles the maintenance at 24 Sussex, they've been doing a terrible job for a very long time now.


----------



## Macfury

Look at this article, for example, in which NCC calls PWGSC workers to complete maintenance requests:

Re: toilet



> Emails exchanged between Roger Charbonneau, house manager at 24 Sussex, Marc Dostaler, property manager of official residences with the NCC, and others tell a story of the wearing business of trying to keep afloat the leaky boat that is the prime minister’s official residence.
> 
> Oct. 25, 2010
> 
> Subject: Access to 24S. “1 p.m. This afternoon PWGSC (Public Works) To install a new motor on hot water radiator system (for heat in upstairs bedroom.)”
> 
> Oct. 26, 2010.
> 
> Subject: (redacted). “Still no heat in (redacted) and west section of the house ... rad tap is still leaking.”
> 
> Nov. 19, 2010
> 
> Subject: RE: Access to 24S. “PWGSC personnel coming to check out heat problem. If nothing can be done till Monday (redacted) then we can put temporary electric heaters.”


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Whoever handles the maintenance at 24 Sussex, they've been doing a terrible job for a very long time now.


It was Pierre Trudeau who installed the indoor pool building on the grounds, by the way, so that can be torn down with my blessing.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> "An RCMP affidavit released last week suggests that Michael Runia called a more junior Deloitte employee at the behest of Conservative Senator Irving Gerstein as the Prime Minister's Office and party leadership scrambled to rein in a scandal over Duffy's spending.
> 
> Runia is the Ontario managing partner for Deloitte's audit section and the auditor of record for the Conservative Fund of Canada, the Conservative Party's fundraising arm.
> 
> Elections Canada records show Runia regularly donates the maximum allowable amount to the Conservative Party.
> 
> While the Senate's internal economy committee invited three Deloitte representatives to Thursday's meeting, Runia wasn't one of them."
> 
> Having Runia testify would have given support to the argument that the confidentiality of the report was maintained. His being a contributor and his not being asked to testify and lay the matter to rest is not helping ending this debate. It only adds fuel to the fire.


yes. This.



> Asked whether Timm tried to find out why and on whose behalf Runia was calling, Timm said no.


Clearly, something went on, and there was an attempt. To me, the point isn't, was the audit compromised, we know that it most likely wasn't. (perhaps we know that for sure I don't know) but what was the story behind the phone call, that's what seems to be being hushed up here. If there's indeed nothing to it, then why the block?

It just seems that fuel is being added to the fire by what seems like a little hushing up of things.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Look at this article, for example, in which NCC calls PWGSC workers to complete maintenance requests:
> 
> Re: toilet


I read the article. From what I can see the NCC is the property manager who contracts PWGSC to do the work.

The NCC is the contractor and PWGSC is contracted to conduct the work.

I could be wrong but that is my take.

So ultimately it is the contractor that is responsible (based on my information) if those that they contracted didn't do the work appropriately.

Sonal, this clearly isn't the kind of deals you are involved with but in terms of private property, if a job isn't done correctly who do you take it up with the contractor or the sub?

The way I see the issue is that both the NCC and PWGSC (thanks for the info Macfury) share the blame for the current state of affairs at 24 Sussex, with the NCC as property managers, to be held accountable for the majority of the blame, at least legally. 

But of course as always, I could be wrong.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *It was Pierre Trudeau who installed the indoor pool* building on the grounds, by the way, so that can be torn down with my blessing.


I think that speaks to the matter at hand very much.

PET displayed "largess" when he ordered that and it has been a sticky issue ever since.

No PM wants to be associated with "aggrandizing "/spending money on 24 Sussex since then.

His largess has translated into inadequate funding on maintaining/renovating the residence ever since, even when it is absolutely necessary.

It is a political hot potato of PET's creating that lingers to this day.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Sonal, this clearly isn't the kind of deals you are involved with but in terms of private property, but if a job isn't done correctly who do you take it up with the contractor or the sub?


I take it up with the contractor. The contractor takes it up with the sub.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I read the article. From what I can see the NCC is the property manager who contracts PWGSC to do the work.
> 
> The NCC is the contractor and PWGSC is contracted to conduct the work.
> 
> I could be wrong but that is my take.
> 
> So ultimately it is the contractor that is responsible (based on my information) if those that they contracted didn't do the work appropriately.
> 
> Sonal, this clearly isn't the kind of deals you are involved with but in terms of private property, but if a job isn't done correctly who do you take it up with the contractor or the sub?
> 
> The way I see the issue is that both the NCC and PWGSC (thanks for the info Macfury) share the blame for the current state of affairs at 24 Sussex, with the NCC as property managers, to be held accountable for the majority of the blame, at least legally.
> 
> But of course as always, I could be wrong.


I was thinking of some of the work PWGSC has taken on to renovate many of the buildings on Parliament Hill and surrounding area. The budgets spiral out of control under their management. 

Under more recent work, such as the seismic upgrades on the West Block, PWGSC has awarded a $360 million construction management contract to PCL in which the budget is theoretically fixed, provided all work has been accurately described in the contract.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> yes. This.
> 
> Clearly, something went on, and *there was an attempt*. To me, the point isn't, was the audit compromised, we know that it most likely wasn't. (perhaps we know that for sure I don't know) but what was the story behind the phone call, that's what seems to be being hushed up here. If there's indeed nothing to it, then why the block?
> 
> It just seems that fuel is being added to the fire by what seems like a little hushing up of things.


Really do you know that? Clearly you don't and neither do the RCMP. That is why Runia is not under investigation.

Absence of evidence translates into innocence in our judicial system. 

You may not like it, perhaps you are like PET lite and prefer the way things are done in China, but that is not the way things are done here.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> I take it up with the contractor. The contractor takes it up with the sub.


Ok, that is what I thought.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Really do you know that?


He played a holiday gig at Deloitte that very day.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I think that speaks to the matter at hand very much.
> 
> PET displayed "largess" when he ordered that and it has been a sticky issue ever since.
> 
> No PM wants to be associated with "aggrandizing "/spending money on 24 Sussex since then.
> 
> His largess has translated into inadequate funding on maintaining/renovating the residence ever since, even when it is absolutely necessary.
> 
> It is a political hot potato of PET's creating that lingers to this day.


At least PET spent money on the place--beyond the pool, that is. From the timeline linked to the article screature posted, it seems like it had been neglected for roughly 20 years prior. 

But I remember Brian and Mila Mulroney got into trouble for a similar issue... not a pool, however, redecorating and renovating.

And Paul Martin was chastised by Stephen Harper for complaining about his own personal comfort for suggesting they looking into what needs to be done to repair the official residences.

Really speaking, that it's stayed a political hot button is everyone's fault.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> The way I see the issue is that both the NCC and PWGSC (thanks for the info Macfury) share the blame for the current state of affairs at 24 Sussex, with the NCC as property managers, to be held accountable for the majority of the blame, at least legally.


In the private sector, it's not the property manager who is held accountable (legally speaking) but the owner.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> At least PET spent money on the place--beyond the pool, that is. From the timeline linked to the article screature posted, it seems like it had been neglected for roughly 20 years prior.


To be honest, PET's pool was paid for by "private donors" whom Trudeau would not reveal (because he claimed he did not know their names). Therefore, this expensive-to-maintain gift to the future was obtained by subterfuge and not on the public dime. Only its legacy maintenance costs affect the taxpayer.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> To be honest, PET's pool was paid for by "private donors" whom Trudeau would not reveal (because he claimed he did not know their names). Therefore, this expensive-to-maintain gift to the future was obtained by subterfuge and not on the public dime. Only its legacy maintenance costs affect the taxpayer.


From the sounds of things, it's not the pool that's in need of 10 million in repairs.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Really do you know that? Clearly you don't and neither do the RCMP. That is why Runia is not under investigation.
> 
> Absence of evidence translates into innocence in our judicial system.
> 
> You may not like it, perhaps you are like PET lite and prefer the way things are done in China, but that is not the way things are done here.


Yes they do in fact. It was all in every news media across the country. In the very news quotes you provided. Be my guest, and write them all that they're wrong. As for innocence because of a lack of evidence, a few things. First of all, this investigation is far from over. Secondly, I didn't suggest that a criminal act has been committed, rather, I, and it seems many have questions regarding what the hell was going on there. And it seems not having answers is causing people, and rightly so, to wonder why. And this, is the very thing you don't seem to understand. And neither Harper, clearly.

The problem as I see it here screature is that you seem to be confusing things here. The RCMP is conducting a criminal investigation. If they find things during their investigation, they may not be criminal acts, but they shed light on some of the goings ons that occurred during this alleged coverup. It's not just one piece, but it seems there are quite a few items along the way that has changed this story from it being originally, a 'much ado about nothing'. It was only Nigel Wright we were told, and he resigned. Right. Well the story has changed quite bait since then hasn't it!

By your standards, the liberal party during adscam should have been able to walk away unscathed since none of the MPs or PM had any evidence (or were charged) they were involved in bilking the money.

But that wasn't the case, now was it!


----------



## Macfury

Listen to those tom-toms beating!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> In the private sector, it's not the property manager who is held accountable (legally speaking) but the owner.


Yes. The buck stops at the owner. As to who you go after when work isn't done properly, it's who you contracted to do the work, the subs are the contractors responsibility.

That's how it works in any business scenario that I'm aware of, whether I do work for private, or government.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Listen to those tom-toms beating!


Posting opinion is fine, but insinuating inside knowledge of an RCMP investigation is pure BS. He knows nothing and neither do the general public or the media until the RCMP release it and so far, they have found nothing regarding the PM, and that's all they have told the media.


----------



## groovetube

Conrad Black: The reverse of embezzlement | National Post

Ha ha. I'm not sure a convicted criminal's opinion is exactly what you want supporting you, but LOL.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Yes. The buck stops at the owner.


But in construction "owner" has a very specific meaning.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> In the private sector, it's not the property manager who is held accountable (legally speaking) but the owner.


So who is the owner?

It seems it is the federal government...

24 Sussex Drive



> The house at 24 Sussex Drive was originally commissioned in 1866 by lumberman and Member of Parliament Joseph Merrill Currier as a wedding gift for his wife to be.[1] He named it Gorffwysfa, Welsh for "place of rest."
> 
> In 1943, the federal Crown used its sovereign power of expropriation to divest Gordon Edwards of his title to the house, in order to consolidate public ownership of the lands along the Ottawa River. Edwards had fought the action, but eventually lost the dispute with the Canadian government in 1946 and died at the house later that year


Ok, so the feds own it, the NCC manages it and PWGSC is responsible for the work. That is the way I see it based on the information that I have seen.

Does this seem correct to others?

But does not the property manager not have some responsibility? I really don't see how that it could not be the case?

Please help me understand. If a water pipe burst and you are paying for property management to look after such issues and they don't do the job how is it that the owner is left with all accountability?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Ok, so the feds own it, the NCC manages it and PWGSC is responsible for the work. That is the way I see it based on the information that I have seen.
> 
> Does this seem correct to others?


That seems right to me.

In construction legalese, however, the "owner" is the party legally held responsible for what happens during a construction project.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> That seems right to me.
> 
> In construction legalese, however, the "owner" is the party legally held responsible for what happens during a construction project.


I know what you're driving at about the construction legalese, but I was actually thinking of property management legalese when I mentioned the owner is ultimately responsible, which in those terms means the party that legally owns the property. That's who gets slapped with the Work Order due to failing to meet property standards, for example.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> *At least PET spent money on the place*--beyond the pool, that is. From the timeline linked to the article screature posted, it seems like it had been neglected for roughly 20 years prior.
> 
> But I remember Brian and Mila Mulroney got into trouble for a similar issue... not a pool, however, redecorating and renovating.
> 
> And Paul Martin was chastised by Stephen Harper for complaining about his own personal comfort for suggesting they looking into what needs to be done to repair the official residences.
> 
> Really speaking, that it's stayed a political hot button is everyone's fault.


He actually spent no money. The people of Canada did... 

I would be interested to see the total cost of any renovation he did when compared to the cost of his personal extravagance.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> He actually spent no money. The people of Canada did...
> 
> I would be interested to see the total cost of any renovation he did when compared to the cost of his personal extravagance.


If we're going to credit him for spending money on the pool, we should likewise credit him for spending money on the residence.

There's a link in the sidebar of that article you posted entitled Timeline of 24 Sussex. It was about 850,000 in upgrades to the residence.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> He actually spent no money. The people of Canada did...
> 
> I would be interested to see the total cost of any renovation he did when compared to the cost of his personal extravagance.


Again, PET had the pool supplied by "anonymous donors" not taxpayers.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> He actually spent no money. The people of Canada did...
> 
> I would be interested to see the total cost of any renovation he did when compared to the cost of his personal extravagance.


From the Ottawa Citizen:



> 1968-1979
> 
> During the Trudeau area, Public Works spends $850,345.93 on the property. In 1973 the 20-year-old kitchen is replaced with a “restaurant-style” set up.
> 
> 1975
> 
> A controversial $200,000 pool house and sauna, joined to the main house by underground tunnel, are added. *The addition is paid for by a group of anonymous donors, unknown to this day*. With security kiosks and pool, the buildings now total more than 21,800 square feet.


A timeline of 24 Sussex


----------



## groovetube

ah was beat to it.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> If we're going to credit him for spending money on the pool, we should likewise credit him for spending money on the residence.
> 
> There's a link in the sidebar of that article you posted entitled Timeline of 24 Sussex. It was about 850,000 in upgrades to the residence.


Not IMO at all. Again, he spent nothing on the residence.

If $850K of taxpayers dollars was necessary for the maintenance of the residence it is not in any way equivalent to adding an extravagant indoor swimming pool for the delight of the PM...

I really don't see how you can equivocate the two.

They are very separate matters indeed and should not be conflated.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> To be honest, PET's pool was paid for by "private donors" whom Trudeau would not reveal (because he claimed he did not know their names). Therefore, this expensive-to-maintain gift to the future was obtained by subterfuge and not on the public dime. Only its legacy maintenance costs affect the taxpayer.





Macfury said:


> Again, PET had the pool supplied by "anonymous donors" not taxpayers.


Sorry I missed your point the first time around.

Too bad we didn't have e-mail and an Access To Information Act, etc. back then... 

Maybe there would be a few raised eyebrows about where the money came from to pay for PET's personal extravagance if there were.

And yet somehow this government is the most "opaque" in history.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Sorry I missed your point the first time around.
> 
> Too bad we didn't have e-mail and an Access To Information Act, etc. back then...
> 
> Maybe there would be a few raised eyebrows about where the money came from to pay for PET's personal extravagance if there were.
> 
> And yet somehow this government is the most "opaque" in history.


I can't see calling this crop of Cons any more or less opaque or corrupt than any previous federal government.

However if Harpo did not know what was going in with Duffy then it would have to be because he had a standing order to his senior staff to keep him sufficiently in the dark to allow him plausible deniability.


----------



## Macfury

PET claimed that since he did not know who donated the pool, he could not be influenced by them--therefore it was all hunky dory. I can't imagine how that would wash today.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> From the Ottawa Citizen:
> 
> A controversial $200,000 pool house and sauna, joined to the main house by underground tunnel, are added. *The addition is paid for by a group of anonymous donors, unknown to this day. *With security kiosks and pool, the buildings now total more than 21,800 square feet.


Somehow you offer this up as defence and you don't' see the irony. 

My head is shaking now... alas there is no appropriate emoticon.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> I can't see calling this crop of Cons any more or less opaque or corrupt than any previous federal government.
> 
> However if Harpo did not know what was going in with Duffy then it would have to be because he had a standing order to his senior staff to keep him sufficiently in the dark to allow him plausible deniability.


Just kool aid for each set of party supporters. When and if the liberals take over, we'll be treated to how different they'll be as well.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Not IMO at all. Again, he spent nothing on the residence.
> 
> If $850K of taxpayers dollars was necessary for the maintenance of the residence it is not in any way equivalent to adding an extravagant indoor swimming pool for the delight of the PM...
> 
> I really don't see how you can equivocate the two.
> 
> They are very separate matters indeed and should not be conflated.


Simple. I hold the sitting PM ultimately responsible for the decisions made at 24 Sussex at the time, whether that's extravagantly adding a pool, responsibly ensuring it's upgraded and renovated, or irresponsibly ignoring its maintenance needs (presumably to score political points by looking frugal.)

So, PET gets a plus and a minus, the Mulroneys get a plus (they did update it, though less so than PET) and everyone else gets a minus. 

Well, I guess they improved security after Chretien had to attack someone for breaking in, so I suppose that's a bit of a plus... maybe we attribute that to Andre Dallaire. 

And Jack Layton bought Martin a heater and some caulking after Martin complained about the poor heating, so points to Layton for that.


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps they should have used some of that 50 million blown on new gazebos instead eh.

So much for being frugal!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Simple. I hold the sitting PM ultimately responsible for the decisions made at 24 Sussex at the time, whether that's extravagantly adding a pool, responsibly ensuring it's upgraded and renovated, or irresponsibly ignoring its maintenance needs (presumably to score political points by looking frugal.)


From my understanding, it isn't so much looking frugal as it's a pain in the ass to leave the residence for that length of time.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> From my understanding, it isn't so much looking frugal as it's a pain in the ass to leave the residence for that length of time.


The current PM is stuck with the dilemma of having to vacate to complete the deferred maintenance.

But if the work had been done all along, it's unlikely that any PM would have had to vacate to do it--and even if so, not for nearly as long. So what's their excuse?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The current PM is stuck with the dilemma of having to vacate to complete the deferred maintenance.
> 
> But if the work had been done all along, it's unlikely that any PM would have had to vacate to do it--and even if so, not for nearly as long. So what's their excuse?


Politics is Hollywood for the ugly. They're all narcissists who don't want to appear diminished by moving into alternate residences when only 24 Sussex is befitting the Prime Ministah!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> The current PM is stuck with the dilemma of having to vacate to complete the deferred maintenance.
> 
> But if the work had been done all along, it's unlikely that any PM would have had to vacate to do it--and even if so, not for nearly as long. So what's their excuse?


From what I understand, they're having no problem vacating an entire parliamentary house while that gets renovated. Surely the inconvenience of just the PM could be handled much easier.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Politics is Hollywood for the ugly. They're all narcissists who don't want to appear diminished by moving into alternate residences when only 24 Sussex is befitting the Prime Ministah!


A house full of leaks, mould, rot, and inadequate heat? They'd be better off in my little fixer-upper.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> A house full of leaks, mould, rot, and inadequate heat? They'd be better off in my little fixer-upper.


Nice basement, I hear...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The Harper scandal continues. While Harper is playing Who tunes to a pro Israeli benefit, the PCO announces that they have Ben Perrin's emails after all. Sunday night at 9pm. PMO press release states as much. 

And this crew has governed Canada for how long?

Start the excuses core group.


----------



## Macfury

Nothing has been said or alleged. What's even to comment on?


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Harper scandal continues. While Harper is playing Who tunes to a pro Israeli benefit, the PCO announces that they have Ben Perrin's emails after all. Sunday night at 9pm. PMO press release states as much.
> 
> And this crew has governed Canada for how long?
> 
> Start the excuses core group.


I remember when Perrin had absolutely nothing to do with this!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The emails of Harper's lawyer Perrin were supposedly deleted as per a policy PMO was defending as recently as last week. 

Incredibly inept PMO.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The emails of Harper's lawyer Perrin were supposedly deleted as per a policy PMO was defending as recently as last week.
> 
> Incredibly inept PMO.


Your own link explains why the files were preserved against normal policy.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Nice basement, I hear...


When it's done, I'll be more than happy to rent it out to Prime Minister Harper and his family so that they can effect repairs on 24 Sussex.

Once we get the windows and doors back in, it should be nice and warm.


----------



## macintosh doctor

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Harper scandal continues. While Harper is playing Who tunes to a pro Israeli benefit, the PCO announces that they have Ben Perrin's emails after all. Sunday night at 9pm. PMO press release states as much.
> 
> And this crew has governed Canada for how long?
> 
> Start the excuses core group.


I am Glad Harper stands with Israel as Obama's US is now friends with the devil Iran, who suppress free speech and touchers pro same sex, not to mention wants to wipe it's neighbor off the map, supports unrest in Lebanon, Syria. 

And to answer your last question : "And this crew has governed Canada for how long?"
Not long enough.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> I am Glad Harper stands with Israel as Obama's US is now friends with the devil Iran, who suppress free speech and touchers pro same sex, not to mention wants to wipe it's neighbor off the map, supports unrest in Lebanon, Syria.
> 
> And to answer your last question : "And this crew has governed Canada for how long?"
> Not long enough.


The US isn't friends with them, they've managed to roll back Iran's nuclear program (despite the detractors mouthing off) and smartly realize, they can't afford a war.

Though it seems lots of people think they can.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> The US isn't friends with them, they've managed to roll back Iran's nuclear program


That is what they are leading you to believe.. BTW - US can print more money and make war..


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> That is what they are leading you to believe.. *BTW - US can print more money and make war.*.


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> That is what they are leading you to believe.. BTW - US can print more money and make war..


Iran's nuclear capability is fully intact and recognized by the US. Inspection does not include key weapons facilities.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Iran's nuclear capability is fully intact and recognized by the US. Inspection does not include key weapons facilities.


Although their nukes are somewhat outnumbered by the Israelis about: 200 to zero. The big difference being that Iran has actually signed onto and so far abided by the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty.


----------



## macintosh doctor

eMacMan said:


> Although their nukes are somewhat outnumbered by the Israelis about: 200 to zero. The big difference being that Iran has actually signed onto and so far abided by the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty.


 :lmao:
so they make you believe..
amazing how everyone is falling for their smoke and mirrors.

lets hope that Israel is ready and good to go when we need them to.. They and the Saudis seem to be the only ones that are NOT falling for the show..


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Although their nukes are somewhat outnumbered by the Israelis about: 200 to zero. The big difference being that Iran has actually signed onto and so far abided by the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty.


It's mostly just republican talking points, which completely ignores much of what actually is going on.

And we all know how well the sanctions have stopped Iran's nuclear progress so far.

The 'deal' isn't by any means a final one, and is rolling back enrichment, which the sanctions have so far, failed to do.

So either the US begins the process of a deal, or, as one poster put it, print a whole pile of money to go invade Iran.

Since it worked so well in Iraq, why wouldn't it be a smashing success in Iran? Interestingly enough, the mumblers rarely offer any other fantastic ideas.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> It's mostly just republican talking points, which completely ignores much of what actually is going on.
> 
> And we all know how well the sanctions have stopped Iran's nuclear progress so far.
> 
> The 'deal' isn't by any means a final one, and is rolling back enrichment, which the sanctions have so far, failed to do.
> 
> So either the US begins the process of a deal, or, as one poster put it, print a whole pile of money to go invade Iran.
> 
> Since it worked so well in Iraq, why wouldn't it be a smashing success in Iran? Interestingly enough, the mumblers rarely offer any other fantastic ideas.


Hey, groove:



groovetube said:


> American thread is over thataway>>>


----------



## groovetube

seems I have a couple obsessive shadows.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Harper scandal continues. While Harper is playing Who tunes to a pro Israeli benefit, the PCO announces that they have Ben Perrin's emails after all. Sunday night at 9pm. PMO press release states as much.
> 
> And this crew has governed Canada for how long?
> 
> Start the excuses core group.


PCO and PMO are entirely different bodies it seems you don't know that.


----------



## groovetube

How, on earth did get -that- from the post???


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> seems I have a couple obsessive shadows.


Your rules, dude.

Or are you a do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do kind of guy, on top of everything else?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*More on the 3 month wait for missing emails*

Lost and found PMO emails yet another Wright-Duffy plot twist - Politics - CBC News

3 months? Cover-up anyone.

The good thing is we'll have to wait for the content of the emails from the PMO's lawyer at the time of the coverup. The scandal will continue to dominate attention as information leaks out one drip at a time. The longer it takes the closer we get to election time. Good news for the majority of Canadians who will make sure the CONS are, at a minimum, reduced to a minority government.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Senate committee to consider motion to grill Deloitte executive Michael Runia | National Newswatch

There's always hope to thwart the cover-up scandal.

I say grill him lightly, so that he squeals.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper cover-up - email ?'s*

Questions on the lost and found emails -

Five questions about the mysteriously rediscovered Senate emails | canada.com


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper: I got a deal fa you*

Free the CBC from Political Interference. Please watch the video and sign the petition. #FreeTheCBC #cdnpoli


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Lost and found PMO emails yet another Wright-Duffy plot twist - Politics - CBC News
> 
> 3 months? Cover-up anyone.
> 
> The good thing is we'll have to wait for the content of the emails from the PMO's lawyer at the time of the coverup. The scandal will continue to dominate attention as information leaks out one drip at a time. The longer it takes the closer we get to election time. Good news for the majority of Canadians who will make sure the CONS are, at a minimum, reduced to a minority government.


Interesting that the opposition asked in QP whether the PMO had access to those emails during that period, and the question was side stepped.

hmmm.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Interesting that the opposition asked in QP whether the PMO had access to those emails during that period, and the question was side stepped.
> 
> hmmm.


Well at least there will not be the 18 1/2-minute gap as there was in Nixon's Watergate tape from the White House Oval Office.

Watergate Tape Gap Still A Mystery - CBS News


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Free the CBC from Political Interference. Please watch the video and sign the petition. #FreeTheCBC #cdnpoli





> Ha, but the CBC is free to interfere with the truth.
> 
> OTTAWA -- CBC's bombshell claim that the National Security Agency (NSA) spied on Canadian soil with the support of the Harper government was blown to bits Monday after the state broadcaster released its source documents.
> 
> Last Wednesday, CBC's The National trumpeted a story of American spies targeting foreign leaders.
> 
> "Stephen Harper's government allowed the largest American spy agency to conduct widespread surveillance in Canada during the 2010 G8 and G20 summits," the headline on CBC's website read.
> 
> The documents, released online Monday, don't support that claim and read more like a standard security briefing ahead of an international summit.
> 
> Wesley Wark , a visiting professor at the University of Ottawa, said the claims made by the story and the words in the documents don't match.
> 
> "There was no support in the document for the claim originally made by the CBC that CSEC (the Communications Security Establishment Canada would lend its technical expertise to the NSA effort," Wark said.
> 
> Security analyst David Harris of Insignis Strategic Research agreed with Wark that the documents don't support the claims CBC made in its original story.
> 
> "As smoking guns go this is the ultimate smokeless gun, there's no compelling evidence of any kind of CSEC collaboration with any imagined NSA plot to penetrate private discussions of visiting government leaders," Harris told QMI Agency.
> 
> That's a far cry from the way CBC anchor Peter Mansbridge and reporter Greg Weston played the story last Wednesday evening on The National.
> 
> "The U.S. was monitoring the communications of world leaders while they were all in Toronto for the G20 summit and Canadian officials approved it," Mansbridge said as he introduced the story.
> 
> Weston claimed on air that the spying operation was done, "all with the blessing of the Canadian government."
> 
> "Beyond the indication about 'co-ordination' with the Canadian partner there are no details about what CSEC or the Canadian government felt about this U.S. operation," Wark said.
> 
> CBC obtained the documents from Glenn Greenwald the journalist, lawyer and former porn promoter who has been working with NSA leaker Edward Snowden. CBC paid Greenwald for access to the documents, a fact omitted from the broadcast of their original story.
> 
> Harris called it strange that CBC partnered with someone like Greenwald, a person who calls for more open government, but initially refused to release the documents.
> 
> "For people pushing governments to be more honest and transparent, it certainly took a lot to get the documents out of them," Harris said.


CBC's spy claims fizzle


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Lost and found PMO emails yet another Wright-Duffy plot twist - Politics - CBC News
> 
> 3 months? Cover-up anyone.
> 
> The good thing is we'll have to wait for the content of the emails from the PMO's lawyer at the time of the coverup. The scandal will continue to dominate attention as information leaks out one drip at a time. The longer it takes the closer we get to election time. Good news for the majority of Canadians who will make sure the CONS are, at a minimum, reduced to a minority government.


Seems you the CBC, CTV and the Opposition still don't know difference between PCO and PMO.



> Minister for Democratic Reform Pierre Poilievre responded in English by reading from the PCO’s letter from Sunday.
> 
> “It says here, and I quote, ‘it is the operating protocol of the Privy Council Office to close and delete email accounts of departing employees of the PCO and the PMO as a matter of course. Consistent with this protocol, upon Mr. Perrin’s departure at the end of his employment in late March 2013, the PMO was provided with notice that his emails had been deleted from the computer server.’”
> 
> According to the letter issued Sunday, the PMO asked the PCO to make available to police “the emails of certain individuals requested by the RCMP” in September 2013. It was at that time the PCO “advised” the PMO that Perrin’s emails had been deleted from a server “and were no longer available.”
> 
> But Sunday’s letter explained that the PCO was wrong in making that claim.
> 
> According to the PCO, the email account came to light in recent days, after the RCMP sought further confirmation from the PMO’s counsel that Perrin’s emails were not available from any other source.
> 
> “In response to this inquiry, on November 29, 2013 we found that Mr. Perrin’s emails had in fact been retained due to a litigation hold in an unrelated matter. On learning that Mr. Perrin’s emails were in fact available, we informed the PMO on November 30, 2013.”
> 
> The PCO apologized for any inconvenience “it may have caused.”


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Well at least there will not be the 18 1/2-minute gap as there was in Nixon's Watergate tape from the White House Oval Office.
> 
> Watergate Tape Gap Still A Mystery - CBS News


Yeah because there really is so much similarity between the two cases...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper - torture advocate*

Canadian Torture Policy Irks European Security Alliance, Records Reveal

At this stage I'm in favour of water boarding PMSH to get to the bottom of the PMO cover-up scandal.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Canadian Torture Policy Irks European Security Alliance, Records Reveal
> 
> At this stage I'm in favour of water boarding PMSH to get to the bottom of the PMO cover-up scandal.


If Canadian lives are at stake, you're damned right that the government should use ANY information it has at its disposal--even information it suspects may have come from non-treaty nations. I can just imagine a government sitting on its hands when life is threatened, trying to deliberate on whether this particular group of Canadians deserves saving, based on the nature of a suspicious source of intelligence.

That such a thing should even be deliberated is an indication of how far progressives have sunk into inanity.


----------



## Dr.G.

Fort McMoney: Explore, vote, debate and shape the future of the oil sands in this documentary game - The Globe and Mail

An interesting and unique game. Just made Fort Mac a colony and protectorate of NL. With over 25,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians living and working there, it was not a difficult "take over".


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

kaboom

The deadly secret behind the Lac-Mégantic inferno - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> kaboom
> 
> The deadly secret behind the Lac-Mégantic inferno - The Globe and Mail


Late post and old news. See Lac-Mégantic thread.


----------



## Dr.G.

Canada's 150th birthday logos tested ahead of 2017 anniversary - Politics - CBC News

Personally, I like Red and History.


----------



## Macfury

Shield is OK, but these pale beside the beautiful work done for public logos a half-century ago:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Shield is OK, but these pale beside the beautiful work done for public logos a half-century ago:


For some reason, that CBC logo makes me think of Flash Gordon.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngQG7lWWmBI]Flash Gordon - The Deadly Ray From Mars - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Shield is OK, but these pale beside the beautiful work done for public logos a half-century ago:


Best ever.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

All aboard the Chongwagon!

In Chong’s bill, a lesson for Mulcair and Trudeau | colin horgan


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> All aboard the Chongwagon!
> 
> In Chong’s bill, a lesson for Mulcair and Trudeau | colin horgan


You want the Chongwagon to roll over Trudeau and Mulcair as the article says?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> You want the Chongwagon to roll over Trudeau and Mulcair as the article says?


Fully in favour of the Chong bill. Will not matter until after the next election.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Poor poor Duffy*

Embattled Sen. Mike Duffy recovering after open-heart surgery | CTV News


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Embattled Sen. Mike Duffy recovering after open-heart surgery | CTV News


Let us not think ill of those with heart problems. Lucky for him that he was allowed to keep his health benefits.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You're quite right. He did the wright thing by squealing on the Harper govt.


----------



## eMacMan

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *
> 
> Poor Poor Duffy
> *Embattled Sen. Mike Duffy recovering after open-heart surgery | CTV News


Knowing second hand how traumatic open heart surgery is, I would suggest that even a walking caricature like Duffy deserves compassion.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Knowing second hand how traumatic open heart surgery is, I would suggest that even a walking caricature like Duffy deserves compassion.


I've seen it first hand. I wouldn't damage my karma by poking fun at it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yes shame on those who wanted to relieve him of his health benefits after becoming a whistle blower.


----------



## Dr.G.

Personally, what Duffy did was wrong, and not becoming of a Senator. I think that he should be expelled from the Senate. However, I shall not "poke fun" at his heart condition. "There but for the grace of God ..........".

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Obviously he wasn't bluffing when he said he attended the senate hearings against the advice of his docs. He put on a good show too and set the scandal further in motion.
We're all pulling for Duff.


----------



## SINC

Skipy is A whole person for his views on Duffy's health. Now cue your normal pile of ****e post Skippy, go ahead. The steaming pile will reflect just who you are for real.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Skipy is A whole person for his views on Duffy's health. Now cue your normal pile of ****e post Skippy, go ahead. The steaming pile will reflect just who you are for real.


 Is he a "whole person", as in cognitive, affective and physical self, or an "A whole" person for making light of Duffy's heart condition?


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes shame on those who wanted to relieve him of his health benefits after becoming a whistle blower.


Duffy was not a whistleblower in any sense of the word. He's a thief who got caught and had the whistle blown on him.

He should have had his gold plated benefits suspended. He's still got the same health care coverage all Canadians are entitled to.


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> Duffy was not a whistleblower in any sense of the word. He's a thief who got caught and had the whistle blown on him.
> 
> He should have had his gold plated benefits suspended. He's still got the same health care coverage all Canadians are entitled to.


A valid point. However, would he be covered under OHIP or whatever they have in PEI???


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Is he a "whole person", as in cognitive, affective and physical self, or an "A whole" person for making light of Duffy's heart condition?


He operates several personas on EhMac. He is jimbotelecom, for example.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Is he a "whole person", as in cognitive, affective and physical self, or an "A whole" person for making light of Duffy's heart condition?


You missed my point when you question a "whole person" the point being he's an 'A whole person' for his views, or simply drop the word 'person' for full effect.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> He operates several personas on EhMac. He is jimbotelecom, for example.


Not to mention "Stink".


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> You missed my point when you question a "whole person" the point being he's an 'A whole person' for his views, or simply drop the word 'person' for full effect.


That is what I thought, Sinc. However, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt as to using such language in a family-oriented thread. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Skipy is A whole person for his views on Duffy's health. Now cue your normal pile of ****e post Skippy, go ahead. The steaming pile will reflect just who you are for real.


Some of us still remember the post that resulted in getting Jimbo banned in the first place and his becoming skippy... it was not unrelated... the guy has no class at all...

He seems to like sexist comments or wishing people dead... it makes no difference to him.

Just so long as it suits his personal political agenda... and people think Harper is cold. 

Clearly they haven't been to ehMac and been subject to the slings, arrows and "gink" coming from jimbo/skippy/stink.

I fully admitted to my alter ego at another place and no one here aside from me has had the balls to admit the same... hypocrisy abounds, "they" expect better from their "leaders" but they are not willing to come clean themselves...

They think they are so well hidden in the "shadows" like no one knows who they really are...

The hypocrisy, the hypocrisy...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Is he a "whole person", as in cognitive, affective and physical self, or an "A whole" person for making light of Duffy's heart condition?


skippy is a persona as all the rest of us here are. 

Perhaps SINC had something else in mind but if he did, personally I wouldn't disagree with him based on xXx's performance here.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> That is what I thought, Sinc. However, *I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt* as to using such language in a family-oriented thread.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Hmmpphh...

This forum hasn't been G rated for a long time now.

EhMax is long gone.

Aside from yourself Dr. G. (and then again I really don't know you) and a few others (who I really don't know all that much about either, but some I think I know more than others due to personal transactions and so I think I can get a gist of who they really are) everyone is a chimera here to me.

And I think the same is applicable to our "leaders" unless we have had personal experience with them... And even then we may be right or we may be wrong...

That is what I find so laughable about current circumstances.

According to our jurisprudence everyone is innocent until proven guilty...

Unless you are the media, the Opposition, or anyone with a vested interest in believing the guilt of someone else...

As do all those here who wish to be judge, jury and executioner and continue to prejudge before all the facts are revealed and anyone has been indicated (as yet there are none).

So tptptptp to "you" all because your proclivities and biases are obvious, you are not interested in due process, like the media and Opposition... You wish for another jurisdiction where you are guilty until proven innocent.... Oh wait there are other jurisdictions where that is the model... maybe you can all move to one of them where the "benefit of doubt" is only extended preferentially.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Hmmpphh...
> 
> This forum hasn't been G rated for a long time now.
> 
> EhMax is long gone.
> 
> Aside from yourself Dr. G. (and then again I really don't know you) and a few others (who I really don't know all that much about either, but some I think I know more than others due to personal transactions and so I think I can get a gist of who they really are) everyone is a chimera here to me.
> .


Good one, screature. I can assure you that I am not a fire-breathing she-monster (i.e., a composite of a lion, goat, and serpent).  "I am who I am" as Popeye would say.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Personally, what Duffy did was wrong, and not becoming of a Senator. I think that he should be expelled from the Senate. However, I shall not "poke fun" at his heart condition. "There but for the grace of God ..........".
> 
> Paix, mes amis.


...but Doctor, was a conclusive report ever released on Mr. Duffy, Ms. Wallin and Mr. Brazeau? An interesting aside Duffy and Wallin went from journalist to Senator and Brazeau went from Senator to journalist.

Perhaps we shall find out when the Auditor General reports that this was another day in the life of the Senate's pigs at the trough. 

Mr. Harper was very successful with regard to organizing a lynch mob mentality towards the Senators. Anything to take the heat off The PMO's influencing the audit of Senators.

Is the recent departure of 2 Senators not named in the scandal, more to do with the AG's review of the Senate or escaping the stench of the Senate?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Speaking of hypocrisy -

John Ivison: Tories would be incensed by $548M in partisan ad spending if they weren’t the ones doing it | National Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Coyne Q&A with Chong -

Balance of power: MP Michael Chong on fixing the relationship between MPs and their leaders (with video) | canada.com

No need for the CONS to be overly concerned either:

"Q. You’ve said this is not a caucus revolt, not aimed at your leader or any leader.

A. The prime minister has my confidence to carry out the mandate voters gave Conservative MPs in the 2011 election. This bill is not about any of the current leaders in this Parliament. It’s about future parliaments and how we can improve the conduct and functioning of those future parliaments."


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Skipy is A whole person for his views on Duffy's health. Now cue your normal pile of ****e post Skippy, go ahead. The steaming pile will reflect just who you are for real.


What a load of crap. 

We all have a vested interest in Duffy maintaining his health so that he can testify, hopefully, sometime in the near future. Hopefully the RCMP will press charges in 2014 and that will set the stage for a trial in 2015 prior to or during the general election. It's all about timing bud.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Good one, screature. I can assure you that I am not a fire-breathing she-monster (i.e., a composite of a lion, goat, and serpent).  "I am who I am" as Popeye would say.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I meant in the non-mythological sense. 

chimera
kʌɪˈmɪərə,kɪ-/
noun
noun: chimera; plural noun: chimeras; noun: chimaera; plural noun: chimaeras

1.
(in Greek mythology) a fire-breathing female monster with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail.
any mythical animal formed from parts of various animals.
2.
*a thing which is hoped for but is illusory* or impossible to achieve.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I meant in the non-mythological sense.
> 
> chimera
> 
> 2.
> *a thing which is hoped for but is illusory* or impossible to achieve.


I see. So, you are hoping that I am real, and that I possess an illusory correlation between a real person and someone/something that is impossible to achieve. I shall have to think upon that situation, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What a load of crap.
> 
> We all have a vested interest in Duffy maintaining his health so that he can testify, hopefully, sometime in the near future. *Hopefully the RCMP will press charges* in 2014 and that will set the stage for a trial in 2015 prior to or during the general election. It's all about timing bud.


Actually it isn't up to the RCMP to press charges. That is up to the Crown Prosecutor to decide.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I see. So, you are hoping that I am real, and that I possess an illusory correlation between a real person and someone/something that is impossible to achieve. I shall have to think upon that situation, mon ami. Paix.


Illusory *or* impossible to achieve, that is why I bolded only the illusory part of the definition.

At any rate I said you are one of the few here who I* don't* consider to be a chimera.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Illusory *or* impossible to achieve, that is why I bolded only the illusory part of the definition.
> 
> At any rate I said you are one of the few here who I* don't* consider to be a chimera.


Oh, I see. My mind is a bit addled today in that it is the end of the semester and I am swamped with grading. You are a "mensch", which is Yiddish for "a person of integrity and honor". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Oh, I see. My mind is a bit addled today in that it is the end of the semester and I am swamped with grading. *You are a "mensch", which is Yiddish for "a person of integrity and honor".* Paix, mon ami.


Merci mon ami, toi aussi.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Will he or wont he?*

.John Ivison: As PM prepares for Israel trip, speculation abounds: Will he resign after he returns? | National Post


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Merci mon ami, toi aussi.


No problem. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

RMR: Christmas Figurines - YouTube

It would make a good Hanukkah gift as well.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Harper thug's trial date now set*

.Peterborough MP's election spending trial set for June


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Booo Hisss
Report Harper is preparing to announce resignation 'absolutely false': spokesman | CTV News


----------



## heavyall

I wonder if those hoping for Harper's resignation are doing so because they actually want a different CPC leader as PM, or if it's actually because they think if Harper is gone, so are the CPC chances in the next election. My guess is it's the latter.


----------



## heavyall

Dr.G. said:


> A valid point. However, would he be covered under OHIP or whatever they have in PEI???


If he claims residence and pays taxes in both, it's probably his choice. One province or the other might have some say, I guess -- does it really matter though?


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> If he claims residence and pays taxes in both, it's probably his choice. One province or the other might have some say, I guess -- does it really matter though?


Yes, since OHIP is far more generous than any of the medical plans in the four Atlantic provinces.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I don't know how many of you saw this but it's an outstanding video montage from the CBC that opened last weekend's Montréal vs. Leafs match. Great Canadiana.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fVLHaXfbfqY]Luciano Pavarotti "Nessun Dorma" Hockey Night In Canada Opening - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I don't know how many of you saw this but it's an outstanding video montage from the CBC that opened last weekend's Montréal vs. Leafs match. Great Canadiana.
> 
> Luciano Pavarotti "Nessun Dorma" Hockey Night In Canada Opening - YouTube


A great clip, skippy. I was able to see many of those players from the 60s and early 70s play at Madison Square Garden as the Habs and the Leafs beat up on my home town Rangers.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

Seems a world changing event has provided a break for Stephen Harper. The PMO cover up of the PMO interference in the Duffy/Wright Senate scandal has been knocked off the front page/lead story in the media.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Seems a world changing event has provided a break for Stephen Harper. The PMO cover up of the PMO interference in the Duffy/Wright Senate scandal has been knocked off the front page/lead story in the media.


The death of Nelson Mandela is "world changing"? Not at 95 and he hasn't had any political influence for years.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The death of Nelson Mandela is "world changing"? Not at 95 and he hasn't had any political influence for years.


Absolutely agreed on that. The world would be no different if Mandela had lived another year.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Absolutely agreed on that. The world would be no different if Mandela had lived another year.


Not sure I agree here, mon ami, although I know that he was not well, and I don't wish ill health on anyone. Still, the world we live in now is a richer and better place for his having been in this world. Paix.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Not sure I agree here, mon ami, although I know that he was not well, and I don't wish ill health on anyone. Still, the world we live in now is a richer and better place for his having been in this world. Paix.


Regarding the state of Canadian politics and the fortunes of Stephen Harper?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Regarding the state of Canadian politics and the fortunes of Stephen Harper?


When Brian Mulroney took power in 1985, he quickly emerged as a vocal champion of Mandela's cause.

He broke ranks with other western leaders by loudly speaking out against the apartheid regime while imposing strict economic sanctions against the government. He made Nelson Mandela an honorary Canadian citizen. While I did not support many of Mulroney's policies, he made us proud to be Canadians, in my opinion, with these actions.

Stephen Harper will represent us at Mandela's state funeral. He did give a good tribute to Mandela in The House.

Parliamentarians salute Mandela - The National - CBC Player


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Will he or won't he?*

Another vote for the yeas!:clap::clap::clap:
Will he leave quietly? Or will he have to be pushed? | iPolitics


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another vote for the yeas!:clap::clap::clap:
> Will he leave quietly? Or will he have to be pushed? | iPolitics


If PM Harper goes, it will have to come as a result of a major push/coup by his party, since he will not go willingly. We shall see.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Not sure I agree here, mon ami, although I know that he was not well, and I don't wish ill health on anyone. Still, the world we live in now is a richer and better place for his having been in this world. Paix.


He changed his part of the world when he was alive but his death isn't going to change the world. How exactly would that happen and in what way?


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> If PM Harper goes, it will have to come as a result of a major push/coup by his party, *since he will not go willingly*. We shall see.


I disagree. I think if he losses his majority or or fails to form government he will retire/resign.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> He changed his part of the world when he was alive but his death isn't going to change the world. How exactly would that happen and in what way?


People are again remembering his greatness, and there is a renewed spirit of hope and commitment to the causes to which he dedicated his life. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> When Brian Mulroney took power in 1985, he quickly emerged as a vocal champion of Mandela's cause.
> 
> He broke ranks with other western leaders by loudly speaking out against the apartheid regime while imposing strict economic sanctions against the government. *He made Nelson Mandela an honorary Canadian citizen*. While I did not support many of Mulroney's policies, he made us proud to be Canadians, in my opinion, with these actions.
> 
> Stephen Harper will represent us at Mandela's state funeral. He did give a good tribute to Mandela in The House.
> 
> Parliamentarians salute Mandela - The National - CBC Player


Actually Chretien did that on November 19th 2001.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> People are again remembering his greatness, and there is a renewed spirit of hope and commitment to the causes to which he dedicated his life. Paix, mon ami.


Well I still fail to see how remembering the man and his actions is a world changing event.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Actually Chretien did that on November 19th 2001.


True. Mea culpa.


----------



## Dr.G.

RCMP documents suggest Deloitte’s Michael Runia, who has not testified, is a key figure in the weeks that preceded the repayment of Senator Mike Duffy’s expenses.

"Stephen Harper says there’s no need to hear an explanation from a Deloitte auditor who allegedly intervened in an independent audit into Mike Duffy’s expenses at the behest of the Conservatives’ top fundraiser and the Prime Minister’s Office."

Sadly, PM Harper is sounding more and more live Pres. Nixon during the Watergate investigation and the requests for the White House tapes.

Harper rejects calls for Parliament to hear more from Duffy witnesses - The Globe and Mail


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Once a whole always a whole

http://globalnews.ca/news/1014755/1014755/


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> RCMP documents suggest Deloitte’s Michael Runia, who has not testified, is a key figure in the weeks that preceded the repayment of Senator Mike Duffy’s expenses.
> 
> "Stephen Harper says there’s no need to hear an explanation* from a Deloitte auditor *who allegedly intervened in an independent audit into Mike Duffy’s expenses at the behest of the Conservatives’ top fundraiser and the Prime Minister’s Office."
> 
> Sadly, PM Harper is sounding more and more live Pres. Nixon during the Watergate investigation and the requests for the White House tapes.
> 
> Harper rejects calls for Parliament to hear more from Duffy witnesses - The Globe and Mail


Again, he was not an auditor involved in the Deloitte audit. Is the CBC completely incapable of accurately representing the facts?

The facts are known. He did not intervene, as the the head auditor from Deloitte stated... he received one phone call from Runia , was asked one question that he did not answer and that was it. 

Quite frankly Dr. G. your attempts at portraying this as anything like Watergate are feeble and a huge stretch... the two cases are nothing like one another.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Once a whole always a whole
> 
> Conservative Rob Anders recommends obituary calling Mandela a terrorist | Globalnews.ca


Well I won't argue that point. 

I have met the man and based on my experience your assessment is correct. I can't understand how he keeps on getting re-elected.


----------



## groovetube

Funny, that's the line we're being handed from Harper.

If he's so insignificant in this apparent non story, why are they so afraid to have him testify?

I agree dr. G


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Cover up.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Once a whole always a whole
> 
> Conservative Rob Anders recommends obituary calling Mandela a terrorist | Globalnews.ca


Will Harper's stench assail Calgary voters to hand this whole a defeat and send him packing in 2015.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Once a whole always a whole
> 
> Conservative Rob Anders recommends obituary calling Mandela a terrorist | Globalnews.ca


wow. That's a real place of stupidity right there. Harper doesn't seem to share this view, thankfully.


----------



## groovetube

Potentially damaging Jackpine oilsands mine expansion OK'd by Ottawa - Edmonton - CBC News



> Environment minister says negative environmental effect is 'justified in the circumstances'


Of course it is.


----------



## BigDL

.


----------



## Macfury

Interesting attempt. Changing it to a negative kind of prevents the Uncle Sam motif from working well. I would recommend "I want you to stop caring" as something that would work better.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> .


Interesting. Not quite the impact of the original. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Aurora

or


----------



## Dr.G.

Aurora said:


> or


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hRDS3LvQQ]WWI - Over There - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

Aurora said:


> or


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knxR-Q2VoBE]Great Big Sea - Recruiting Sergeant - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZmqVxSB2pk]The Blue Puttees Vignette - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abKUAv7gxPo]Vimy Ridge Vignette - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> .


What exactly is this supposed to mean?

Quite frankly I think the reference is really lame.


----------



## groovetube

it follows my post...


----------



## Dr.G.

I would be pissed off if I was a user of ON electricity.

"Salaries, pensions and bonuses at Ontario Power Generation are "significantly more generous" than for comparable positions in the civil service, and have a financial impact on the cost of electricity, Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk reported Tuesday.

OPG has cut staff by 8.5 per cent, but increased the size of "its highly paid executive and senior management group" by almost 60 per cent since 2005, creating "a top heavy organization," Lysyk said in her annual report.

"Earnings and benefits were significantly more generous at OPG than for comparable positions in the Ontario Public Service, and many of OPG's senior executives earned more than most deputy ministers," she reported.

Incentive awards for OPG's non-unionized staff can be up to $1.3 million, and their top five executives will be eligible for pensions ranging from $180,000 to $760,000 a year. "

Auditor finds OPG generous salaries, pensions, bonuses push up electricity rates - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> it follows my post...


Ok.

It is still really lame IMO.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> *I would be pissed off if I was a user of ON electricity.
> 
> "Salaries, pensions and bonuses at Ontario Power Generation are "significantly more generous" than for comparable positions in the civil service, and have a financial impact on the cost of electricity, Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk reported Tuesday.
> 
> OPG has cut staff by 8.5 per cent, but increased the size of "its highly paid executive and senior management group" by almost 60 per cent since 2005, creating "a top heavy organization," Lysyk said in her annual report.
> 
> "Earnings and benefits were significantly more generous at OPG than for comparable positions in the Ontario Public Service, and many of OPG's senior executives earned more than most deputy ministers," she reported.
> 
> Incentive awards for OPG's non-unionized staff can be up to $1.3 million, and their top five executives will be eligible for pensions ranging from $180,000 to $760,000 a year. "*
> 
> Auditor finds OPG generous salaries, pensions, bonuses push up electricity rates - Toronto - CBC News


I absolutely agree Dr. G.

About time the AG produced a scathing report.

I don't even live in Ontario but I have heard enough stories from my friends who live in Ontario that it corroborates what I have read/seen/heard in the media and now the AG report to believe that OPG needs it's wings clipped. 

A public facility that acts like it is a private company. 

Completely disgusting. There should be hell to pay....

The levels of compensation are absolutely ludicrous for a public entity... beyond belief.

With "bonuses" *well* over 7x what the PM makes :yikes: for top executives of a *provincial* public entity. For what? 

Because the electricity wouldn't be there if that particular executive weren't at the helm?...

Completely absurd anyway you look at it.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I absolutely agree Dr. G.
> 
> About time the AG produced a scathing report.
> 
> I don't even live in Ontario but I have heard enough stories from my friends who live in Ontario that it corroborates what I have read/seen/heard in the media and now the AG report to believe that OPG needs it's wings clipped.
> 
> A public facility that acts like it is a private company.
> 
> Completely disgusting. There should be hell to pay....
> 
> The levels of compensation are absolutely ludicrous for a public entity... beyond belief.
> 
> With "bonuses" *well* over 7x what the PM makes :yikes: for top executives of a *provincial* public entity. For what?
> 
> Because the electricity wouldn't be there if that particular executive weren't at the helm?...
> 
> Completely absurd anyway you look at it.


I can't disagree with you there. There's a good reason it's a public not a privately owned utility, much like the one in Alberta. 

Thank god they never privatized that one, I had heard of some of the hydro rates they were paying out there, yikes...


----------



## Dr.G.

Mint chair Jim Love signed deal to keep taxman in dark about offshore case - Politics - CBC News

Well, this is at least one more potential scandal put to rest. A signed deal is a signed deal. End of story. Next!!!!!!!!!!! 

Seinfeld - The End of the Soup Nazi - YouTube


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Mint chair Jim Love signed deal to keep taxman in dark about offshore case - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Well, this is at least one more potential scandal put to rest. A signed deal is a signed deal. End of story. Next!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Seinfeld - The End of the Soup Nazi - YouTube


I don't really how this is in anyway a scandal. It involves a court case between two private parties. It has nothing to do with the government and its operations.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I don't really how this is in anyway a scandal. It involves a court case between two private parties. It has nothing to do with the government and its operations.


Well, Minister of Finance Jim Flaherty nominated the person heading the Canadian Mint, Jim Love.

Back in March, Flaherty said ""We are introducing new measures to crack down on tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance to keep taxes low for Canadian families," Finance Minister Jim Flaherty told the House of Commons Thursday. "Families who work hard, play by the rules and pay their taxes.""

""It raises red flags," said Sébastien Grammond, the dean of civil law at the University of Ottawa, who was among the experts who found the no-contact clause troubling.


Grammond said that in general, "Parties to a contract cannot stipulate clauses that run against public policy, and in particular that aim at preventing the application of public legislation such as … tax laws.""

Budget targets tax cheats | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

Mint chair Jim Love signed deal to keep taxman in dark about offshore case - Politics - CBC News


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Well, Minister of Finance Jim Flaherty nominated the person heading the Canadian Mint, Jim Love.
> 
> Back in March, Flaherty said ""We are introducing new measures to crack down on tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance to keep taxes low for Canadian families," Finance Minister Jim Flaherty told the House of Commons Thursday. "Families who work hard, play by the rules and pay their taxes.""
> 
> ""It raises red flags," said Sébastien Grammond, the dean of civil law at the University of Ottawa, who was among the experts who found the no-contact clause troubling.
> 
> 
> Grammond said that in general, "Parties to a contract cannot stipulate clauses that run against public policy, and in particular that aim at preventing the application of public legislation such as … tax laws.""
> 
> Budget targets tax cheats | Canada | News | Toronto Sun
> 
> Mint chair Jim Love signed deal to keep taxman in dark about offshore case - Politics - CBC News


Again, it has nothing to do with the government or its operation. 

That Flaherty appointed him is a complete red herring and has nothing to do with Love's private court case. 

What you are essentially suggesting is guilt by association. Are you saying that Flaherty somehow has something to do Love's case or knew the details of it when he appointed him? If so that is a huge stretch and completely baseless.


----------



## groovetube

Wasn't this kinda the same arguments being floated by the liberals during adscam? I mean it wasn't MPs or members of government found to be involved (despite calls for them to go to jail) it was appointed people who got their hands dirty in it.

Why is there this 'firewall' now with the conservative government, but not when the liberals were in power?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Again, it has nothing to do with the government or its operation.
> 
> That Flaherty appointed him is a complete red herring and has nothing to do with Love's private court case.
> 
> What you are essentially suggesting is guilt by association. Are you saying that Flaherty somehow has something to do Love's case or knew the details of it when he appointed him? If so that is a huge stretch and completely baseless.


Exactly those pesky task rules only apply to regular Canadians. The major task of any modern government is to ensure that tax rules do not apply to party faithful.

Conmen get an automatic bye.


----------



## Stink

.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Again, it has nothing to do with the government or its operation.
> 
> That Flaherty appointed him is a complete red herring and has nothing to do with Love's private court case.
> 
> What you are essentially suggesting is guilt by association. Are you saying that Flaherty somehow has something to do Love's case or knew the details of it when he appointed him? If so that is a huge stretch and completely baseless.


I don't think that Flaherty knew about this deal, so he is not to blame. I actually like him. However, the optics are such that he says one thing about reining in the tax cheaters/avoiders, even has a hot line set up, and then this happens. So, until Revenue Canada takes a closer look at this deal, it is not an illegal act. It is just one more piece of the puzzle that says "Do as we say, not as we do."

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I don't think that Flaherty knew about this deal, so he is not to blame. I actually like him. However, the optics are such that he says one thing about reining in the tax cheaters/avoiders, even has a hot line set up, and then this happens. So, until Revenue Canada takes a closer look at this deal, it is not an illegal act. It is just one more piece of the puzzle *that says "Do as we say, not as we do."*
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


No it isn't. Mr. Love is not a member of the government, so it is not a case of "Do as we say, not as we do." at all.

It is the case of one lawyer doing one thing with a client that may or may not be an illegal act. To try and conflate it as a scandal pertaining to the federal government if just typical media and Opposition FUD IMO.

Also I have to remind you, the media, and the Opposition that the case involving Mr. Love and the Meighen's began in 1996, a long time before this government took office so to say that the "optics" are bad is just again the media and the Opposition grasping at straws trying to find a "scandal" to discredit the government where one does not exist.

Just business as usual for them, but I did not think so for you Dr. G., I have come to expect it from a few others around here but not you.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No it isn't. Mr. Love is not a member of the government, so it is not a case of "Do as we say, not as we do." at all.
> 
> It is the case of one lawyer doing one thing with a client that may or may not be an illegal act. To try and conflate it as a scandal pertaining to the federal government if just typical media and Opposition FUD IMO.
> 
> Also I have to remind you, the media, and the Opposition that the case involving Mr. Love and the Meighen's began in 1996, a long time before this government took office so to say that the "optics" are bad is just again the media and the Opposition grasping at straws trying to find a "scandal" to discredit the government where one does not exist.
> 
> Just business as usual for them, but I did not think so for you Dr. G., I have come to expect it from a few others around here but not you.


But adscam didn't involve members of parliament! (though I'm sure some feel they were) And that was the scandal that took down the liberals!!

I'm not saying this is a true scandal (yet...) but saying it wasn't an MP involved doesn't automatically mean it's not a scandal on the government.

So I'm not surprised dr. G, or anyone would wonder about this.


----------



## screature

Stink said:


> .


You really are just a piece of s**t aren't you?! Disgusting and not funny in the least.

I know this is the kind of comment you are trolling for but it had to be said, just once.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> But adscam didn't involve members of parliament! (though I'm sure some feel they were) And that was the scandal that took down the liberals!!
> 
> I'm not saying this is a true scandal (yet...) but saying it wasn't an MP involved doesn't automatically mean it's not a scandal on the government.
> 
> So I'm not surprised dr. G, or anyone would wonder about this.


Of course it did! And it involved the misuse of government funds so it had everything to do with the government so get over trying to draw parallels where they don't exist.

You may want to take a refresher course.

Sponsorship scandal



> Involved parties
> 
> Jean Chrétien — Prime Minister of Canada at the time the Sponsorship Program was established and operated. The Gomery Commission, First Phase Report which assigned blame for the Sponsorship scandal cast most of the indemnity for misspent public funds and fraud on Chrétien and his Prime Minister's Office (PMO) staff, though it cleared Chrétien himself of direct wrongdoing.
> Jean Pelletier — Chrétien's chief of staff 1990-2001 and chairman of Via Rail 2001-2004. Pelletier served as Chief of Staff at the PMO between 1993-2001. Guité testified that he regularly received instructions from Pelletier during his time at the PMO about what programs to spend sponsorship money on and how much, a claim that Justice Gomery found to be truthful.[2] Via Rail was accused of mishandling sponsorship deals, though mostly not under Pelletier's tenure.
> Alfonso Gagliano — Minister of Public Works between 1997-2002, and thus in charge of the program. Also the Quebec lieutenant between 1999-2002, making him in charge of Liberal Party operations in Quebec.
> André Ouellet — member of Prime Minister Chrétien's Cabinet, longtime Liberal politician and later head of Canada Post, who was also accused of violating sponsorship rules.
> Chuck Guité — bureaucrat in charge of the sponsorship program. Arrested for fraud by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) - convicted on five counts on June 6, 2006.
> Jean Carle — Long-time close associate of Chrétien's going back to the 1980s, and generally viewed as Chrétien's "surrogate son".[3] Carle served as the chief of operations at the PMO between 1993-1998 and as a senior executive at the Crown-owned Business Development Bank of Canada (BDC) between 1998-2001. Guité testified that besides for Pelletier that he sometimes also received his orders from Carle during his time at the PMO.[4] During his time at the BDC, Carle testified at the Gomery commission that he created a $125,000 phony paper trail to hide a sponsorship deal, a tactic that Gomery compared to money laundering.[5]
> Jean Brault — head of Groupaction Marketing, one of the companies to which deals were directed. Arrested for fraud by the RCMP, he pleaded guilty to five counts of fraud and on May 5, 2006, was sentenced to 30 months in prison.
> Jacques Corriveau — Liberal organizer and head of Pluridesign to which millions in sponsorship dollars were directed.
> Paul Martin — former Prime Minister of Canada. He was Minister of Finance, and Senior Minister from Quebec during most of the years the program occurred. When he became Prime Minister in December 2003, he claimed that he put a halt to it. He also set up the Gomery Commission which later cleared him of formal responsibility by Justice Gomery in his November 2005 'First Phase Report' of the Gomery Commission. The Gomery findings found that Martin, as finance minister, established a 'fiscal framework' but he did not have oversight as to the dispersal of the funds once they were apportioned to Chrétien's Prime Minister's Office. A report on the issue by the Auditor General's Office of Sheila Fraser came to the same conclusion. Nonetheless, Martin was accused of tying Gomery's hands and using the sponsorship scandal as an excuse to purge the Liberals of members who supported Chrétien. The scandal played a factor in the federal election of 2006 and the fall of the Liberal Government. Shortly thereafter, Martin resigned from the liberal party leadership.
> Joe Morselli — Liberal Party fundraiser. Jean Brault testified that the money exchanges were with Morselli.
> Jean Lafleur — former CEO of Lafleur Communication Marketing Inc. One of the advertising executives that accepted money from the federal government. Pleaded guilty to 28 counts of fraud.
> Allan Cutler — former civil servant and whistleblower who reported anomalies in the Canadian sponsorship program, triggering the Scandal.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Of course it did! And it involved the misuse of government funds so it had everything to do with the government so get over trying to draw parallels where they don't exist.
> 
> You may want to take a refresher course.
> 
> Sponsorship scandal


Isn't allowing companies to not pay taxes something that very much affects government funds, whether actually taking from what the government has, or not giving it to them?

Same difference. Wonder if this affected government revenues by more than 40 million...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Isn't allowing companies to not pay taxes something that very much affects government funds, whether actually taking from what the government has, or not giving it to them?
> 
> Same difference. Wonder if this affected government revenues by more than 40 million...


----------



## groovetube

oh screature. Ok we disagree, but do you not see what I'm saying here?

In the end, it's still bilking government money!


----------



## kps

Here's the full Ontario 'sunshine' list, check out the (OVER 100k) salaries of OPG and all the rest of the trough feeders, its down right disgusting.

Public Sector Salary Disclosure


and if your head is not spinning after perusing that have a look at this...
Ontario Liberals wasting taxpayer money : Prime time : SunNews Video Gallery


----------



## groovetube

I've got a good idea! Let's vote for Hudak, then they can gut everything (like Harris did) and hand all their rich buddies cash, but we'll call it, hmm, I know! Corporate tax cuts! Yeah! We'll tell everyone be scared cause if we don't no one will get a job. See it's more above board that way.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but we can't win on either side of the political spectrum can we.


----------



## Macfury

I would vote for Hudak in a heartbeat if he had the cojones to gut everything as Harris did.


----------



## Stink

.


----------



## Dr.G.

6 things MPs didn't do before taking a 6-week holiday - Politics - CBC News

Well, let's all dig down deep and work a bit harder and a bit longer this holiday season ................. to generate some more tax dollars to help pay for our politicians as they go home for some "much needed" rest and relaxation. Paix, mes amis.

Food banks face crunch as donations shrink - Canada - CBC News

Hopefully, our politicians will not have to avail themselves of their local food banks. It would be a rough six-week paid vacation if this were the case.


----------



## Macfury

I'm laughing at Canada Post's decision to suspend home delivery and double stamp prices in five years. That's what we pay for their inefficiency and golden union pensions.

I was watching an older movie in which someone puts a letter in the mail by mistake in the evening, and then stakes out the recipient's home in the morning to intercept the letter. My parents told me that we used to have twice a day delivery, in which anything placed in the box by morning was delivered within the city by the afternoon. Only government inefficiency and union cronyism could bring us to this point in 50 short years.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> 6 things MPs didn't do before taking a 6-week holiday - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Well, let's all dig down deep and work a bit harder and a bit longer this holiday season ................. to generate some more tax dollars to help pay for our politicians as they go home for some "much needed" rest and relaxation. Paix, mes amis.
> 
> Food banks face crunch as donations shrink - Canada - CBC News
> 
> Hopefully, our politicians will not have to avail themselves of their local food banks. It would be a rough six-week paid vacation if this were the case.


Kady O'Malley should know better. It is not a six week paid vacation. Spouting this kind of non-sense is what helps to keep the electorate cynical about politicians. 

MPs continue to work in the ridings during the House recess. Just because the House isn't sitting doesn't mean that they aren't working and O'Malley knows this she is just being sensationalistic to pander to the masses who think it really is a 6 week vacation.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha ^^^^

So this in the news: RCMP lay fraud-related charges against Jean Chretien ally Jacques Corriveau over sponsorship scandal | CTV News

I wonder how fast the conservatives and their supporters will be all over the fact that Corriveau had close ties to the former PM, but when individuals who had close ties to the PM or say the finance minister set up schemes so select people can defraud the government of taxes, well, that's different because shut up


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha ha ^^^^
> 
> So this in the news: RCMP lay fraud-related charges against Jean Chretien ally Jacques Corriveau over sponsorship scandal | CTV News
> 
> *I wonder how fast the conservatives and their supporters will be all over the fact that Corriveau had close ties to the former PM*, but when individuals who had close ties to the PM or say the finance minister set up schemes so select people can defraud the government of taxes, well, that's different because shut up


That's it gt, get out in front of it... 

It is strange though that charges only come a decade later. I don't know what that says, but it is strange.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No amnesty for the crooks. I'm still hoping "cashman" Mulroney is charged.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> That's it gt, get out in front of it...
> 
> It is strange though that charges only come a decade later though. I don't know what that says, but it is strange.


Yes I find that strange as well. Why wasn't this guy charged a decade ago???


----------



## SINC

It will be interesting to hear what the Liberal potty boy leader has to say about this, won't it?


----------



## groovetube

Jason Kenney's Rob Ford comment sparked profane rebuke from Jim Flaherty - Politics - CBC News

Using profanity! 



> In a voice loud enough for several of their cabinet colleagues to hear, Flaherty told Kenney to "shut the f--k up" about Ford.


----------



## SINC

And of course, that makes him somehow a better man?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Jason Kenney's Rob Ford comment sparked profane rebuke from Jim Flaherty - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Using profanity!


Flaherty is close to the family particularly Rob's father with whom he served in the Ontario legislature. I am sure you probably saw Flaherty's emotional response to a reporter some time ago when asked about Rob.

Clearly he takes the matter somewhat personally and therefore was upset with Kenney. I suspect Flaherty knows he shouldn't have said what he did and regrets saying it but did so due to emotion.

Even Finance Ministers are just human and thus fallible.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> And of course, that makes him somehow a better man?


No, just human. Warts and all.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Flaherty is close to the family particularly Rob's father with whom he served in the Ontario legislature. I am sure you probably saw Flaherty's emotional response to a reporter some time ago when asked about Rob.
> 
> Clearly he takes the matter somewhat personally and therefore was upset with Kenney. I suspect Flaherty knows he shouldn't have said what he did and regrets saying it but did so due to emotion.
> 
> Even Finance Ministers are just human and thus fallible.


Absolutely. I agree with you. I'm sure it is an emotional time for very close family friends.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


That is one weird cartoon. Why draw deafness into it just for a gag? As far as I know that interpreter suffered from mental illness. A double laff riot.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> no, just human. Warts and all.


+1


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> And of course, that makes him somehow a better man?





Macfury said:


> That is one weird cartoon. Why draw deafness into it just for a gag? *As far as I know that interpreter suffered from mental illness*. A double laff riot.


Completely an aside to the Canadian Political thread, but it does make one wonder how he could have been hired to do the job in the first place.

I have yet to see a reasonable explanation as to how that came about.

He at various points also had charges of rape, theft and murder against him. It seems that the security clearance screening was less than adequate. Thank god all he did was make up sign language gibberish, considering his past it could have been much worse. Does he even actually know sign language? Again something I have not heard answered definitively.


----------



## groovetube

certainly a pretty bizarre story.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Absolutely. I agree with you. I'm sure it is an emotional time for very close family friends.


Then there is this:

Conservatives Jason Kenney and Jim Flaherty in spat over Rob Ford's crack use | Toronto Star



> Kenney’s comments also reportedly angered other Conservatives elected in the GTA, who told the CBC they had been given strict instructions to avoid commenting on the Rob Ford scandal.
> 
> Voters from Ford Nation are still seen as essential for the federal Conservatives’ chances of securing another majority in 2015.


----------



## i-rui

^^yes, that's what i see as the real story. those MPs selfish silence make them complicit in supporting & enabling the walking train-wreck of Rob Ford.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> ^^yes, that's what i see as the real story. those MPs selfish silence make them complicit in supporting & enabling the walking train-wreck of Rob Ford.


Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics. Kathleen Wynne sets a better example.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> ^^yes, that's what i see as the real story. those MPs selfish silence make them complicit in supporting & enabling the walking train-wreck of Rob Ford.





Macfury said:


> *Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics. Kathleen Wynne sets a better example.*


Agreed. Rob Ford and his shenanigans are the domain of GTO municipal politicians. 

It is only those with a vested interest that think it should be necessary for a federal MP to comment on the matter. 

I can't recall where any conservative federal MP commented on the gas plants scandal in Ontario which is easy low lying fruit had they wanted to comment.

Some people just don't appreciated the notion of jurisdictional responsibility, especially supporters of the NDP who are always want to have "national", programs and strategies even where they step on the toes of provincial, territorial and municipal jurisdiction.


----------



## groovetube

Certainly, municipal politics isn't the domain of the feds. Politics.

But we are NOT talking about politics here when it comes to rob ford are we. Though his supporters wish to always turn it around to that.


It's his crack use (apparently heroin too??) , his gang ties etc. that has not only made him the laughing stock of the world, but a topic of many across the country. Why wouldn't a fed comment on -that-???


----------



## Macfury

It's a bit shocking that you can't see the impropriety of what you're asking federal politicians to do. They can't simply fulfill your wish list of actions.


----------



## groovetube

I haven't asked the federal politicians to do anything. And I don't plan to! I'm merely saying it isn't a big surprise that a few might have an opinion on this given what ford has done.

It has nothing to do with ford's politic and municipal affairs. Where it would be improper for a fed to step in on


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics. Kathleen Wynne sets a better example.


Yes, I agree on both counts.

The problem is that when Stephen Harper makes a big appearance at Ford Fest and starts complimenting Rob Ford on "cleaning up the NDP mess" in the City (as he did in 2011), it starts blurring the lines.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics. Kathleen Wynne sets a better example.


do Rob Ford's infamous antics & behaviour really qualify as "politics"? I'd say we're well beyond that.



screature said:


> I can't recall where any conservative federal MP commented on the gas plants scandal in Ontario which is easy low lying fruit had they wanted to comment.
> 
> Some people just don't appreciated the notion of jurisdictional responsibility, especially supporters of the NDP who are always want to have "national", programs and strategies even where they step on the toes of provincial, territorial and municipal jurisdiction.


How about when Flaherty scolded Ontario on a tax hike which they never even proposed?

Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty rejects HST hike to fund public transit in Ontario | Toronto Star

i wonder if anyone told him to "shut the f*%k up"?....


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> do Rob Ford's infamous antics & behaviour really qualify as "politics"? I'd say we're well beyond that.


That's my point exactly. They are not commenting on municipal politics at all.



i-rui said:


> How about when Flaherty scolded Ontario on a tax hike which they never even proposed?
> 
> Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty rejects HST hike to fund public transit in Ontario | Toronto Star
> 
> i wonder if anyone told him to "shut the f*%k up"?....


But that's different!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

F'in Flaherty eh. 

Forget about the sign language man, how did Rob Ford ever clear a security inspection?

By the way if many of us see PMSH as a piece of work wait until Jason Kenney rolls in! Danger Alert!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Certainly, municipal politics isn't the domain of the feds. Politics.
> 
> *But we are NOT talking about politics here *when it comes to rob ford are we. Though his supporters wish to always turn it around to that.
> 
> 
> It's his crack use (apparently heroin too??) , his gang ties etc. that has not only made him the laughing stock of the world, but a topic of many across the country. *Why wouldn't a fed comment on -that*-???


Why should they? If what you say is true, that it isn't politics?

Personally, as I have said before I couldn't give a rat's a** about his drug use... that he lied about it is of concern. I don't live in the GTO but I could see how that would be concerning.

As far as being a laughing stock goes, yes he is, but more locally than internationally. I think on the international front they get it that he is just one mayor who has problems and don't think less of TO or Canada for his transgressions. If they don't then they are just prejudiced to begin with and should be ignored. IMO.


----------



## groovetube

I'm repeating myself here, but, I honestly don't care about his drinking, and pot use. But crack, possibly heroin? And more troubling, is his gang associations. 

There's so much wrong with this picture, it goes beyond just he got drunk and smoked some dope. This isn't political, it's a serious problem with a mayor involved in crime and gangs.

It's kind of a pretty insane thing. As I said, I don't expect the Feds to do, or say anything. But I'm not surprised when they do considering how bad this is.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> do Rob Ford's infamous antics & behaviour really qualify as "politics"? I'd say we're well beyond that.
> 
> 
> 
> How about when Flaherty scolded Ontario on a tax hike which they never even proposed?
> 
> Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty rejects HST hike to fund public transit in Ontario | Toronto Star
> 
> i wonder if anyone told him to "shut the f*%k up"?....


It was proposed by Metrolinx, an Ontario government agency--and how the HST is applied is governed by federal law.


----------



## Sonal

True Torontoians shouldn't get bothered by our reputation.... those people don't live in the centre of the universe, so what do they matter?  They already have to cope with the fact that they don't live in Toronto... poor souls. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> True Torontoians shouldn't get bothered by our reputation.... those people don't live in the centre of the universe, so what do they matter?  They already have to cope with the fact that they don't live in Toronto... poor souls. :lmao:


:lmao:


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> It was proposed by Metrolinx, an Ontario government agency--and how the HST is applied is governed by federal law.


so you do think there are scenario's where this doesn't apply :



Macfury said:


> Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics.


in which case i agree. Hard & fast "rules" seldom account for all instances in the real world.

There are a multitude of situations that cry out for a response. One of them would be the nations' s largest city's mayor who clearly has a substance abuse problem and spends his free time hanging out with the city's criminal element.

I'm glad we could clear that up.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> so you do think there are scenario's where this doesn't apply.


Yes, When the federal government has explicit jurisdiction over the issue, such as the HST.



i-rui said:


> There are a multitude of situations that cry out for a response. One of them would be the nations' s largest city's mayor who clearly has a substance abuse problem and spends his free time hanging out with the city's criminal element.
> 
> I'm glad we could clear that up.


Nothing has been cleared up. This does not call for a response from the federal government.


----------



## groovetube

You keep saying that we think 'this calls for a response', or that some of us are calling for action from the federal government.

Not only is this not true, it's really perplexing how you've come to this assumption!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> You keep saying 'this calls for a response', or that some of us are calling for action from the federal government.
> 
> Not only is this not true, it's really perplexing how you've come to this assumption!


You having trouble reading?



Macfury said:


> Nothing has been cleared up. This does *not* call for a response from the federal government.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> True Torontoians shouldn't get bothered by our reputation.... those people don't live in the centre of the universe, so what do they matter?  They already have to cope with the fact that they don't live in Toronto... poor souls. :lmao:


I suffer everyday, *not having,* Rob Ford as my Mayor.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Nothing has been cleared up.


disagree. we've established that your mantra of "Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics" is actually more of a loose guideline.

Our differences lie in what we'd consider worthy of breaching the guideline.


----------



## FeXL

GOLDSTEIN: Wynne can’t fix hydro mess



> Don’t bet any money on Premier Kathleen Wynne reining in runaway spending at Ontario Power Generation in the wake of last week’s devastating report by Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk.
> 
> ...
> 
> Back in the real world, based on the experience of the past decade, here’s what we can expect to actually happen.
> 
> In the next few months, there will be a lot of talk by the Liberals about reforming OPG, just as there was in 2003, until the heat dies down and everything is overtaken by the provincial election now expected this spring.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Indeed, the most amazing thing about the Liberals is that they’ve managed to screw up the electricity file even worse than the Conservatives did before them.*


My bold.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> disagree. we've established that your mantra of "Federal politicians shouldn't be saying much of anything about municipal politics" is actually more of a loose guideline.
> 
> Our differences lie in what we'd consider worthy of breaching the guideline.


I don't have a loose guideline. Unless there is direct federal responsibility they should have no official comment..


----------



## groovetube

Though curiously, Stephen Harper felt it appropriate to comment on the 'NDP messes' in Toronto municipal politics. Oh, and the hat trick...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Though curiously, Stephen Harper felt it appropriate to comment on the 'NDP messes' in Toronto municipal politics. Oh, and the hat trick...


Although Mr. Harper was correct about the NDP mess, he should be careful, even when speaking in an unofficial capacity.


----------



## groovetube

Right.

Seems the feud over what should be said and not is still raging or at least still news:

Flaherty not happy at Kenney's call for Rob Ford's resignation - The Globe and Mail


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dang Jamie! Ya just blew your leadership chances. Advantage Kenney.

James Moore: ‘Is it my job to feed my neighbour's child?’ | canada.com


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Dang Jamie! Ya just blew your leadership chances. Advantage Kenney.
> 
> James Moore: ‘Is it my job to feed my neighbour's child?’ | canada.com


"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche".


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> do Rob Ford's infamous antics & behaviour really qualify as "politics"? I'd say we're well beyond that.
> 
> 
> 
> How about when Flaherty scolded Ontario on a tax hike which they never even proposed?
> 
> Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty rejects HST hike to fund public transit in Ontario | Toronto Star
> 
> i wonder if anyone told him to "shut the f*%k up"?....


It says right in the article:



> His press secretary, Susie Heath, noted “Ontario has not made any requests of the federal government on this matter.”
> 
> “*It is one of many recommendations made by the agency*, on which we will consult with the public and municipalities,” said Heath.


Flaherty was simply letting them know it was a non-starter if they intended on going down that path for the reasons stated in the article. This is not the Feds impinging upon a municipality's jurisdiction at all, not in the least. It is about respecting a previously signed legal agreement, the article makes that abundantly clear, so I don't know what you are on about.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> That's my point exactly. They are not commenting on municipal politics at all.
> 
> 
> But that's different!


It is very different if you read the story.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yes, When the federal government has explicit jurisdiction over the issue, such as the HST.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing has been cleared up. This does not call for a response from the federal government.


Exactly i-rui is clearly in strawman territory.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Dang Jamie! Ya just blew your leadership chances. Advantage Kenney.
> 
> James Moore: ‘Is it my job to feed my neighbour's child?’ | canada.com


He should have tuck by his comments. Part of the role of a leader is to determine the scope of government offerings. It is certainly not the job of the federal government.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> He should have tuck by his comments. Part of the role of a leader is to determine the scope of government offerings. It is certainly not the job of the federal government.


While I'm all for helping people that have no food, clothing or shelter, I'm also all for people taking responsibility for their lives and not offloading responsibility to someone else. Many cross that line and just leach off the system when they could easily afford to serve their child a slice of toast or a bowl of cereal in the morning. They opt to abuse the Nanny State Breakfast Programs instead.
In that light, I totally agree with Moore.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Flaherty was simply letting them know it was a non-starter if they intended on going down that path for the reasons stated in the article. This is not the Feds impinging upon a municipality's jurisdiction at all, not in the least. It is about respecting a previously signed legal agreement, the article makes that abundantly clear, so I don't know what you are on about.





screature said:


> Exactly i-rui is clearly in strawman territory.


lol. it's hilarious to read you rationalize this. ignoring that Flaherty's statement in his letter included :



> “We did not lower the GST to have it taken away from Ontarians by the Wynne government with a new sales tax hike,”


that isn't "clarification", that's "politicking".

or how about this :

Ontario finances 'badly mismanaged,' Flaherty says - Toronto - CBC News

why doesn't Flaherty "Shut the F%$k up" about Ontario's politics?

P.S. way to ignore Harper's comments at his fishing buddy Rob Ford's BBQ.

:clap:


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Ontario finances 'badly mismanaged,' Flaherty says - Toronto - CBC News


The feds had been criticized by the provincial government on tax policy and on transfer payments to the provinces. That certainly opens it to comment.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> lol. it's hilarious to read you rationalize this. ignoring that Flaherty's statement in his letter included :
> 
> 
> 
> that isn't "clarification", that's "politicking".
> 
> or how about this :
> 
> Ontario finances 'badly mismanaged,' Flaherty says - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> why doesn't Flaherty "Shut the F%$k up" about Ontario's politics?
> 
> P.S. way to ignore Harper's comments at his fishing buddy Rob Ford's BBQ.
> 
> :clap:


There's plenty of examples of fed interference it makes your head spin.

The idea that the feds shouldn't comment on such a monstrous mess of a mayor involved in criminal activity (even admitting to it) is hilarious.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> While I'm all for helping people that have no food, clothing or shelter, I'm also all for people taking responsibility for their lives and not offloading responsibility to someone else. Many cross that line and just leach off the system when they could easily afford to serve their child a slice of toast or a bowl of cereal in the morning. They opt to abuse the Nanny State Breakfast Programs instead.
> In that light, I totally agree with Moore.


And even if you arrange a program that helps the deserving poor who have no other option, it's still a hand-out, but one that few people would quarrel with.

I have heard from food bank workers who complain that the people they serve are often well-heeled types doing their free grocery shopping.


----------



## groovetube

Still stuck on the handout/program thing. 

Anyway, personal anecdotes about 'my friend who said' food bank recipients are 'often' well heeled types, is just a wee grenade tossed that has no boom.

Does this mythical fired have some stats, something beyond this personal anecdote?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Still stuck on the handout/program thing.


If you don't understand the distinction, you aren't qualified to comment.



groovetube said:


> Anyway, personal anecdotes about 'my friend who said' food bank recipients are 'often' well heeled types, is just a wee grenade tossed that has no boom.


Take it up with EhMac member rps 
ehMac.ca - View Profile: Rps, 
who tossed that gutless grenade.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> And even if you arrange a program that helps the deserving poor who have no other option, it's still a hand-out, but one that few people would quarrel with.
> 
> I have heard from food bank workers who complain that the people they serve are often well-heeled types doing their free grocery shopping.


Small town advantage. I know the people who work the local foodbank. Their biggest issue is people who really need their services are too ashamed to come in and ask.

Yes I suspect there are individuals supporting $100+/week tobacco habits, whom were they to can the cigarettes would not need the food bank, but the cost of weeding them out would exceed the cost of providing them the service.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Small town advantage. I know the people who work the local foodbank. Their biggest issue is people who really need their services are too ashamed to come in and ask.
> 
> Yes I suspect there are individuals supporting $100+/week tobacco habits, whom were they to can the cigarettes would not need the food bank, but the cost of weeding them out would exceed the cost of providing them the service.


This is the flip side. When Loblaws introduced "No Name" products, many of the people who could most benefit from the line were ashamed to be seen buying them. Do you need a food bank if you have subscribe to Netflix or a premium movie channel? In Michigan, food stamps are available to anyone whose _second car _is not valued at more then $30,000.


----------



## 18m2

I did a client management program in FileMaker for a nearby Food Bank a few years ago and have to agree with Macfury. While many clients of the food bank program are in need I question the validity of those who arrive in nice vehicles less than 4 years old, are smoking, dressed in name brand clothes that didn't come from Mark's and appear to NOT be disabled in any way. Unemployed? Perhaps, but from all appearances capable of getting a job. 

I base my opinion on working for a couple of weeks registering new clients, checking ID's of current clients and preparing/handing out bags to clients. I asked the centre manager about the clients who appear to not fit the needy stereotype and he told me they meet the criteria established by the centres board and claim the provincial welfare criteria is not rigours enough to weed out those who are scamming the system.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Still stuck on the handout/program thing.
> 
> Anyway, personal anecdotes about 'my friend who said' food bank recipients are 'often' well heeled types, is just a wee grenade tossed that has no boom.
> 
> Does this mythical fired have some stats, something beyond this personal anecdote?


My mother volunteers at a local food bank & soup kitchen. She often confirms the identical observations (as do many of her co-volunteers). None of this is news to anybody who has been involved for any length of time. 

I dare you to approach her, face to face, & question her "anecdotes". She'll shove that grenade places you hadn't considered & show you just how much boom it does carry...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> lol. it's hilarious to read you rationalize this. ignoring that Flaherty's statement in his letter included :
> 
> 
> 
> that isn't "clarification", that's "politicking".
> 
> or how about this :
> 
> Ontario finances 'badly mismanaged,' Flaherty says - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> why doesn't Flaherty "Shut the F%$k up" about Ontario's politics?
> 
> P.S. way to ignore Harper's comments at his fishing buddy Rob Ford's BBQ.
> 
> :clap:


Galloway asked him a direct question and he answered. Flaherty is an MP from Ontario so I think he is certainly entitled to comment when asked on such matters. Also he did answer when asked about Rob Ford, he said it was up to Ford to decide what is the right course of action.

You simply want MPs to call for Ford to be tarred and feathered because that is what you believe. Just because you believe that to be the correct course of action doesn't mean that everyone else does or should.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The feds had been criticized by the provincial government on tax policy and on transfer payments to the provinces. That certainly opens it to comment.


Exactly.


----------



## groovetube

18m2 said:


> I did a client management program in FileMaker for a nearby Food Bank a few years ago and have to agree with Macfury. While many clients of the food bank program are in need I question the validity of those who arrive in nice vehicles less than 4 years old, are smoking, dressed in name brand clothes that didn't come from Mark's and appear to NOT be disabled in any way. Unemployed? Perhaps, but from all appearances capable of getting a job.
> 
> I base my opinion on working for a couple of weeks registering new clients, checking ID's of current clients and preparing/handing out bags to clients. I asked the centre manager about the clients who appear to not fit the needy stereotype and he told me they meet the criteria established by the centres board and claim the provincial welfare criteria is not rigours enough to weed out those who are scamming the system.


Ah! Someone who may have some knowledge and access to some actual stats that you can provide.

Now some questions. First off, what is the percentage of the clients that you have found to be 'well helped' people who are not in need. And, more importantly, how did you come to that conclusion? Because there are people out there who did have jobs, and decent clothes, and suddenly found themselves in dire straights without employment, and we all know those decent clothes don't suddenly vaporize when one loses a job and finds themselves in dire straights.

Next, do you have access to numbers/stats that show what your findings are that you provided are the same in all food banks across the country?

and lastly, based on these stats you've provided, do you think the increase in food bank usage is just hype, inflated numbers based on said well helped types bilking the system.

thanks!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Ah! Someone who may have some knowledge and access to some actual stats that you can provide.
> 
> Now some questions. First off, what is the percentage of the clients that you have found to be 'well helped' people who are not in need. And, more importantly, how did you come to that conclusion? Because there are people out there who did have jobs, and decent clothes, and suddenly found themselves in dire straights without employment, and we all know those decent clothes don't suddenly vaporize when one loses a job and finds themselves in dire straights.
> 
> Next, do you have access to numbers/stats that show what your findings are that you provided are the same in all food banks across the country?
> 
> and lastly, based on these stats you've provided, do you think the increase in food bank usage is just hype, inflated numbers based on said well helped types bilking the system.
> 
> thanks!


This is pretty hilarious. You're suddenly asking questions of others on a level far beyond what you have ever deigned to provide about your own opinions.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> This is pretty hilarious. You're suddenly asking questions of others on a level far beyond what you have ever deigned to provide about your own opinions.


Agreed. He'll gladly accept a newspaper article as "evidence" of AGW but words directly from the mouths of people who work the food banks & soup kitchens are merely chaff to be discarded.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Agreed. He'll gladly accept a newspaper article as "evidence" of AGW but words directly from the mouths of people who work the food banks & soup kitchens are merely chaff to be discarded.


Their opinions need to be tabulated in order to meet the high bar set by his lordship.


----------



## 18m2

groovetube said:


> Ah! Someone who may have some knowledge and access to some actual stats that you can provide.
> 
> Now some questions. First off, what is the percentage of the clients that you have found to be 'well helped' people who are not in need. And, more importantly, how did you come to that conclusion? Because there are people out there who did have jobs, and decent clothes, and suddenly found themselves in dire straights without employment, and we all know those decent clothes don't suddenly vaporize when one loses a job and finds themselves in dire straights.


I don't have access to those statistics and do not believe the food banks collect them. They do collect information to show the number who qualify and the number of visits and the volume of goods dispensed. They are not qualified to determine eligibly for assistance and rely on government assessments and answers to questions posed when a client makes application. The food banks do ask for an address and some form of paper tracking to try to control several people from the same address obtaining goods. Not that they are not needed but when goods are in short supply they want to try to insure there is enough to meet the needs without giving extra to some.



groovetube said:


> Next, do you have access to numbers/stats that show what your findings are that you provided are the same in all food banks across the country?


No, I did the program for one food bank and have no idea about the information available provincially nor nationally.



groovetube said:


> and lastly, based on these stats you've provided, do you think the increase in food bank usage is just hype, inflated numbers based on said well helped types bilking the system.


Reliance on food banks, from my limited involvement, appears to vary by season but the trend, year over year, was up. Again, the management and workers at the food bank I was involved with recognize there are some people who take unfair advantage of the service but the board of directors required clients to meet a set of standards to receive goods. If they were able to meet those requirements then it was not up to staff and volunteers to question the client further.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If you don't understand the distinction, you aren't qualified to comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Take it up with EhMac member rps
> ehMac.ca - View Profile: Rps,
> who tossed that gutless grenade.


Easy now, there's no need to throw the 'gutless' thing at RPS. 



Macfury said:


> This is pretty hilarious. You're suddenly asking questions of others on a level far beyond what you have ever deigned to provide about your own opinions.


Why do I have to have a stated opinion beyond I;'m a little skeptical at the personal anecdotes? If someone works at a food bank, and has access to information I don't, then the questions I have asked I believe are good questions that I'd like to see backed up information on. I never stated there wasn't, but I'm not going to take the personal anecdotes as fact.

There's no need to turn some good questions into a fight, though the fans are right in for the kill, as per usual...

Just as you yourself macfury, have reminded people oh so often yourself!


----------



## groovetube

18m2 said:


> I don't have access to those statistics and do not believe the food banks collect them. They do collect information to show the number who qualify and the number of visits and the volume of goods dispensed. They are not qualified to determine eligibly for assistance and rely on government assessments and answers to questions posed when a client makes application. The food banks do ask for an address and some form of paper tracking to try to control several people from the same address obtaining goods. Not that they are not needed but when goods are in short supply they want to try to insure there is enough to meet the needs without giving extra to some.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I did the program for one food bank and have no idea about the information available provincially nor nationally.
> 
> 
> 
> Reliance on food banks, from my limited involvement, appears to vary by season but the trend, year over year, was up. Again, the management and workers at the food bank I was involved with recognize there are some people who take unfair advantage of the service but the board of directors required clients to meet a set of standards to receive goods. If they were able to meet those requirements then it was not up to staff and volunteers to question the client further.


ah ok. Thanks your reply on this.

I don't doubt there are some people who will try to take advantage of this offering, anything like this will always attract those types. But often this sort of thing is held as some definitive reason for why something like this isn't credible amongst some circles if you dare point to the upward trend in food bank use. I have no idea what the scoop is on misuse in food banks, or what percentage it is.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> There's no need to turn some good questions into a fight, though the fans are right in for the kill, as per usual...


You need to provide some good questions, then we'll see...


----------



## MacDoc

a summary of everything that is wrong with the ****nuts on the right and Harper's henchmen...



> 'Is it my job to feed my neighbour’s child? I don’t think so'
> With that throwaway line at the end of a brief encounter federal Conservative cabinet minister and potential leadership aspirant James Moore triggered a wave of online criticism.


someday the clowns and their supporters will understand the "sock" in society and the "civi" in civilization and civil.

 What a flat out retard.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You need to provide some good questions, then we'll see...


Well they seemed good enough for the member who was nice enough to answer.

respectfully, I'm not interested in what you thought I should ask. It's for me to determine what my curiosities are, and ask accordingly.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's for me to determine what my curiosities are, and ask accordingly.


And it's for me to determine if your questions are good enough.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha for your own self, yes. You;re welcome to it!


----------



## screature

Can we just try and tone it down a little on all fronts?

Maybe if we just stick to the contents of the posts and not who posted them it could be a start... and on that front, maybe if posts didn't include singling out people, as well as saying whole groups (NDP, Libs, Cons etc. are a certain way, and I freely admit to doing that in the recent past) we could make some headway in terms of decorum.

IMO if things keep going with the "same old same old" this place will be dead in a year, two at best.

That would not make me happy. For some others, it may not matter but for me personally I have developed some online relationships here over a long period of time that are worth more than me always being right.

Sometimes a person needs to know when saying nothing at all is the appropriate response.

Restraint can be a virtue.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Restraint can be a virtue.


So can honour & respect...


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> So can honour & respect...


Indeed and I completely agree.


----------



## Stink

.


----------



## screature

Stink.. Whoever you are, IMO your posts are of at best no value added and at worst vile and disgusting.

Why do you feel the need to be so antisocial? 

It seems to me it is your only reason for your existence here on ehMac and yet somehow it seems that you see this tenancy as being a virtue.


----------



## CubaMark

Hmmm... could Stink be an _agente provocateur_?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Hmmm... could Stink be an _agente provocateur_?


Stink is skippythebushkangaroo, _aka_ the banned jimbotelecom.


----------



## BigDL

*Shakes head*

The control freaks posting arounds these parts are truly amazing. 

"Thou shalt question to an arbitrary and imaginary undisclosed standard."

Double secret question period! I should think.

It's just :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Attempting to resolve issues does not deserve to be laughed at and frankly demonstrates, well, union thinking overall perhaps?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> The control freaks posting arounds these parts are truly amazing.
> 
> "Thou shalt question to an arbitrary and imaginary undisclosed standard."
> 
> Double secret question period! I should think.
> 
> It's just :lmao: :lmao:


I took it mostly as mere annoyance at such direct questions. 

I didn't realize there was a committee of one to submit questions to for approval!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The control freaks posting arounds these parts are truly amazing.
> 
> "Thou shalt question to an arbitrary and imaginary undisclosed standard."
> 
> Double secret question period! I should think.
> 
> It's just :lmao: :lmao:


Just who are you referring to BigDL?

Rather than posting such blanket accusations why not at least have the courage of your convictions to say who you are talking about so those who you are accusing can at least defend themselves.

As it is now you are merely making arbitrary accusations with nothing to back them up and additionally, at this point what you are saying could equally be applied to you.

I am always suspect of a "comedian" who is the first to laugh at his own supposed "jokes".


----------



## groovetube

I think he was referring to macfury, who got rather upset that when I asked some questions of a poster who worked at a food bank, that the questions didn't meet his standard of excellence. 

The poster was gracious enough to answer me in full, and macfury is certainly entitled to his opinions, (and I had a wee chuckle at that "question-gate affair), and I'm enjoying a glass of wine.

It's all good


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think he was referring to macfury, who got rather upset that when I asked some questions of a poster who worked at a food bank, that the questions didn't meet his standard of excellence.
> 
> The poster was gracious enough to answer me in full, and macfury is certainly entitled to his opinions, (and I had a wee chuckle at that "question-gate affair), and I'm enjoying a glass of wine.
> 
> It's all good


Certainly it never upsets me. I think you're a great exhibit to have around the place. Just keep doing what you're doing!


----------



## groovetube

ha ha well I'll give you an E for effort macfury. 

But I think everyone here is an 'exhibit' of some sort, whether great, or otherwise!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I think you're a great exhibit to have around the place.


Worth the price of admission on his own...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Moore's a flipflopper*

James "Scrooge" Moore does a little backtracking - "In response to a question from a reporter last week, I made an insensitive comment that I deeply regret. I apologize."

Amazing how such a comment can destroy one's prime ministerial ambitions.

Industry Minister Moore apologizes for remark about child poverty


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Cheer up Harper it's the most wonderful time of the year!*

I always thought Ivison was a full borne CON supporter but in recent months he too has become convinced that the wrought has set in.

John Ivison: Tories speaking out as PMO loses credibility, ministers become potential leadership rivals | National Post


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> James "Scrooge" Moore does a little backtracking - "In response to a question from a reporter last week, I made an insensitive comment that I deeply regret. I apologize."
> 
> Amazing how such a comment can destroy one's prime ministerial ambitions.
> 
> Industry Minister Moore apologizes for remark about child poverty


yeah after he realized that his opinions were very poorly received. While I'm sire many members of the conservative party may not be be so cold hearted, it does kind of show the lack of compassion this government has.


----------



## Macfury

Governments should not be compassionate. They should concentrate on the mechanics of what works,


----------



## groovetube

they should be both.


----------



## Macfury

A government can't feel compassion--it's a legal entity. Its policies will outlive whoever feels one way or another about some issue. At best it can create public policy that attempts to achieve one end or another. However, these are not acts of morality, in the sense of one person helping another directly.


----------



## groovetube

That's perhaps what you would like it to be. But that's not actually the case, obviously.

Before anyone gets to excited I don't want to minimize what this government has done, but I think this government is far too focused on the oil industry, supporting resource based industries/corporations, and not enough on other priorities.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> That's perhaps what you would like it to be. But that's not actually the case, obviously.


It is actually the case.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> yeah after he realized that his opinions were very poorly received. While I'm sire many members of the conservative party may not be be so cold hearted, it does kind of show the lack of compassion this government has.


Quite frankly aside from the fact that it was a dumb thing for a Minister to at Christmas time largely he is correct in what he said.

It is the job of his neighbour's parent to feed their kids, after that municipal programs and after that if absolutely need be then the province.

The feds already give billions of dollars in transfers to the provinces to help pay for exactly these types of social issues. If they aren't allocating the funds properly then that is the provinces and municipalities problem to solve. Not the feds. 

So while it obviously made for bad press and came off as being insensitive and cold hearted, from a purely jurisdictional perspective he was completely correct.


----------



## groovetube

Sure it came off as cold hearted. But it really shows the real attitude.

It's not about who's "job" it is, that seems pretty heartless right there. The assumption right off the bat that the parent isn't doing their job or being good parents, or that someone else isn't doing their "job", really exemplifies to me what's wrong with the thinking.

But it's government's job to be the oil industry's shill!

FAIL


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Sure it came off as cold hearted. But it really shows the real attitude.
> 
> It's not about who's "job" it is, that seems pretty heartless right there. The assumption right off the bat that the parent isn't doing their job or being good parents, or that someone else isn't doing their "job", really exemplifies to me what's wrong with the thinking.
> 
> But it's government's job to be the oil industry's shill!
> 
> FAIL


But if your neighbour's kid is going hungry someone *isn't* doing their job and the way to solve it is bottom up, not top down, as it should be.

As for the government being involved with resource development, that is specifically their job as it creates jobs and generates revenue for the government through taxation there by allowing parents to feed their kids and the government to continue to payout transfers to the provinces. No fail at all.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> But if your neighbour's kid is going hungry someone *isn't* doing their job and the way to solve it is bottom up, not top down, as it should be.
> 
> As for the government being involved with resource development, that is specifically their job as it creates jobs and generates revenue for the government through taxation there by allowing parents to feed their kids and the government to continue to payout transfers to the provinces. No fail at all.


right. The ol' trifle down theory. It's worked so well before, why not now?

Maybe, the neighbour's kid is going hungry, because they lost their jobs because after some corporation got massive tax breaks they decided that they don't like paying living wages here, so they threaten to pull up stakes here, and move the jobs overseas so they can pay unlovable wages. The assumption right off the bat that they 'aren;t doing their jobs' is the problem right there.

It's same dung getting flung when people say their 'friend' works at a food bank and tells them the reason for increased food bank usage is because rich people are coming for free food. 

Then we immediately move to dismissing any positive systemic changes as "handouts'. 

Which is why the problems, never really go away.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> right. The ol' trifle down theory. It's worked so well before, why not now?
> 
> Maybe, the neighbour's kid is going hungry, because they lost their jobs because after some corporation got massive tax breaks they decided that they don't like paying living wages here, so they threaten to pull up stakes here, and move the jobs overseas so they can pay unlovable wages. The assumption right off the bat that they 'aren;t doing their jobs' is the problem right there.
> 
> It's same dung getting flung when people say their 'friend' works at a food bank and tells them the reason for increased food bank usage is because rich people are coming for free food.
> 
> Then we immediately move to dismissing any positive systemic changes as "handouts'.
> 
> Which is why the problems, never really go away.


Corporations aren't responsible to provide jobs, they are responsible to make money for their shareholders. If it means moving their business operations to another part of the world that is what they should do.

Parents are responsible for feeding their families so if their loose their job it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to get new employment.

This is the way it was for my parents and theirs before them and so on. It is only with the development of the idea of the "nanny state" that people have begun to think otherwise. That somehow the government is responsible for stepping in and relieving me of my direct responsibility of caring for my family.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> It's same dung getting flung when people say their 'friend' works at a food bank and tells them the reason for increased food bank usage is because rich people are coming for free food.


That's not what was said.

What was said was that there are people taking advantage of the system. Period.

Progressives. It doesn't matter what the story is, it doesn't matter what the facts are, it doesn't matter that the truth is staring them in the face, they'll twist it into some sort of BS that has zero relationship with the original.

I don't understand the need...


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Corporations aren't responsible to provide jobs, they are responsible to make money for their shareholders. If it means moving their business operations to another part of the world that is what they should do.
> 
> Parents are responsible for feeding their families so if their loose their job it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to get new employment.
> 
> This is the way it was for my parents and theirs before them and so on. It is only with the development of the idea of the "nanny state" that people have begun to think otherwise. That somehow the government is responsible for stepping in and relieving me of my direct responsibility of caring for my family.


Bingo...


----------



## groovetube

whoa now we've headed straight into the 'nanny state' straw man. Just as I predicted.

But I'm glad we can agree on this silly notion that it's the corporation's responsibility to create jobs, especially in light of the massive tax breaks Harper gave them... to create jobs.


----------



## Macfury

That makes utterly no sense in the English language.


----------



## i-rui

FeXL said:


> That's not what was said.
> 
> What was said was that there are people taking advantage of the system. Period.
> 
> Progressives. It doesn't matter what the story is, it doesn't matter what the facts are, it doesn't matter that the truth is staring them in the face, they'll twist it into some sort of BS that has zero relationship with the original.
> 
> I don't understand the need...


groovetube already said as much :



groovetube said:


> I don't doubt there are some people who will try to take advantage of this offering, anything like this will always attract those types.


so no one is denying that it never happens. the point is there is a process that determines eligibility, and it isn't based on how nice someone's clothes are or what car they happen to drive up in. Maybe they're wearing their best clothes? or maybe they're borrowing a family member's car? maybe they have mental health issues that prevent them from holding a job?

undoubtably there will still be some who take advantage of the system, just as there are corporations who game the system's tax laws or employment legislation. but that doesn't negate the entire endeavour.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

screature said:


> *Corporations aren't responsible to provide jobs, they are responsible to make money for their shareholders. If it means moving their business operations to another part of the world that is what they should do.
> *
> Parents are responsible for feeding their families so if their loose their job it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to get new employment.
> 
> This is the way it was for my parents and theirs before them and so on. It is only with the development of the idea of the "nanny state" that people have begun to think otherwise. That somehow the government is responsible for stepping in and relieving me of my direct responsibility of caring for my family.


HA HA HA!!! :clap:

It is so easy now to replace workers in Canada with obedient low cost TFW's at huge savings over hiring Canadian workers. Easy to get them to work for long hours and not pay them for those long hours.

As an extra bonus you can buy houses and stuff them with these legalized foreign slaves while ripping them off on all their living expenses. If they complain or stand up for their rights, ship them back home. No need to put up with whiny Canadians wanting a living wage etc. anymore.

Thanks Harper, I appreciate you for making this very easy to do. :greedy:


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> but that doesn't negate the entire endeavour.


It very well might.


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> HA HA HA!!! :clap:
> 
> It is so easy now to replace workers in Canada with obedient low cost TFW's at huge savings over hiring Canadian workers. Easy to get them to work for long hours and not pay them for those long hours.
> 
> As an extra bonus you can buy houses and stuff them with these legalized foreign slaves while ripping them off on all their living expenses. If they complain or stand up for their rights, ship them back home. No need to put up with whiny Canadians wanting a living wage etc. anymore.
> 
> *Thanks Harper, I appreciate you for making this very easy to do. *:greedy:


This has nothing to do with Harper it is simply the way of capitalist world corporations around the world work this and have since the beginning of corporation.

Most jobs in this country come from SME's not big corporations, so you can't blame the corporations for doing what they were created to do (make money for their shareholders) for the social ills of the nation.

The reason why corporations are given tax breaks is to specifically draw them into Canada to do business and to keep them doing business here. It really isn't hard to figure out (although it does seem so for some) that the more tax they have to pay the less incentive they have to take up shop here and to stay here.

The NDP would rather tax them up the ying yang and drive them out as we all know the NDP are anti big corporation and big business. The would rather join hands and sing Kumbaya at some Mom and Pop's local corner grocery store.

I hate to break it to you that day is long gone and isn't coming back, at least not anytime soon.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Chestnuts roasting on an open fire - The boy Harper*

.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *whoa now we've headed straight into the 'nanny state' straw man.* Just as I predicted.
> 
> But I'm glad we can agree on this silly notion that it's the corporation's responsibility to create jobs, especially in light of the massive tax breaks Harper gave them... to create jobs.


Not a strawman if you (general you) expect the government to take over your responsibilities that is in fact what you are advocating for.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Not a strawman if you (general you) expect the government to take over your responsibilities that is in fact what you are advocating for.


No that is not what I'm advocating for. Far from it. That's the problem. Any dissent from What Harper's government is taken as advocating for a nanny state, or for shirking one's responsibilities altogether to the government. It ridiculous.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> No that is not what I'm advocating for. Far from it. That's the problem. Any dissent from What Harper's government is taken as advocating for a nanny state, or for shirking one's responsibilities altogether to the government. It ridiculous.


You advocated for some sort of federal policy that would rescue people from being poor. However, it would not be a "hand-out." That's what you have advocated for here. Don't expect people to read your mind.


----------



## groovetube

it isn't my fault that you can't follow my posts and understand what I clearly talked about.

Advocating for keeping large numbers of people in poor and in dire straights creates the need for more handouts. I thought this might be something that would make sense. Apparently not!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


:lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I think Lord Black should interview Dawn Cherry next. Have a conversation.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> it isn't my fault that you can't follow my posts and understand what I clearly talked about.
> 
> Advocating for keeping large numbers of people in poor and in dire straights creates the need for more handouts. I thought this might be something that would make sense. Apparently not!


You haven't said any more than that, so it makes no sense on any level. What policy are you talking about that will rescue "large numbers of people in poor and in dire straights" without offering someone a handout?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Please Suh. Can I a've some more Gruel?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Please Suh. Can I a've some more Gruel?


Yes--with Cool Whip on it!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Yes--with Cool Whip on it!


Ah the spirit of christmas warms even the coldest of hearts.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Please Suh. Can I a've some more Gruel?


NOOO! We have to give some more corp tax cuts FIRST!!! Then, if you're damn lucky they give you a job so you can (not) afford to have some gruel!

Any day now...

Oh shyte they're cache hoarding...

ooh the economists say we're in for a goo d year! 

Oh wait they said a lot of things that didn't come to pass.

But there were x number of jobs created! That proves the corp taxes are working!

Except, there's absolutely not a shred of proof that these tax cuts had anything to do whatsoever with the job creation.

And on it goes, day in, day out.


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> groovetube already said as much :
> 
> 
> 
> so no one is denying that it never happens. the point is there is a process that determines eligibility, and it isn't based on how nice someone's clothes are or what car they happen to drive up in. Maybe they're wearing their best clothes? or maybe they're borrowing a family member's car? maybe they have mental health issues that prevent them from holding a job?
> 
> undoubtably there will still be some who take advantage of the system, just as there are corporations who game the system's tax laws or employment legislation. but that doesn't negate the entire endeavour.


Watch the pea.

groove said this:



groovetube said:


> It's same dung getting flung when people say their 'friend' works at a food bank and tells them the reason for increased food bank usage is because rich people are coming for free food.


Meaning that those of us who added anecdotal information to the discussion (18m2 & myself) claimed an increase in food bank usage. I certainly never said, nor implied, anything of the sort. 18m2 noted that yearly usage was up but placed no emphasis on the cause and most certainly did not attribute any part of the rise to "rich people are coming for free food."

So, groove is actually the source of this new found knowledge that "rich people are coming for free food" and driving up the numbers, not those of us who actually provided the anecdotes. 

I also see a huge difference between "gaming the system" when no actual laws are being broken (albeit liberally interpreted) and openly stealing food from people who need it far more than they do.

And, no, I do not believe, nor ever implied, that food banks, etc., should be shut down due to abuse.


----------



## Macfury

So you're confused by everything going on. So what's your policy that is not a hand-out that will fix things for the poor so they will not require hand-outs?



groovetube said:


> NOOO! We have to give some more corp tax cuts FIRST!!! Then, if you're damn lucky they give you a job so you can (not) afford to have some gruel!
> 
> Any day now...
> 
> Oh shyte they're cache hoarding...
> 
> ooh the economists say we're in for a goo d year!
> 
> Oh wait they said a lot of things that didn't come to pass.
> 
> But there were x number of jobs created! That proves the corp taxes are working!
> 
> Except, there's absolutely not a shred of proof that these tax cuts had anything to do whatsoever with the job creation.
> 
> And on it goes, day in, day out.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The NDP would rather tax them up the ying yang and drive them out as we all know the NDP are anti big corporation and big business.


Perhaps it's not that they're "anti big corporation" as much as they're pro middle class.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

screature said:


> This has nothing to do with Harper it is simply the way of capitalist world corporations around the world work this and have since the beginning of corporation.
> 
> Most jobs in this country come from SME's not big corporations, so you can't blame the corporations for doing what they were created to do (make money for their shareholders) for the social ills of the nation.
> 
> The reason why corporations are given tax breaks is to specifically draw them into Canada to do business and to keep them doing business here. It really isn't hard to figure out (although it does seem so for some) that the more tax they have to pay the less incentive they have to take up shop here and to stay here.
> 
> The NDP would rather tax them up the ying yang and drive them out as we all know the NDP are anti big corporation and big business. The would rather join hands and sing Kumbaya at some Mom and Pop's local corner grocery store.
> 
> I hate to break it to you that day is long gone and isn't coming back, at least not anytime soon.


You do NOT need to be a big business to hire TFW's. You do not even need to be a business to hire them. All you need to do is go to one of many foreign recruitment agencies and fill an LMO (Labour Market Opinion) with BS to the government and you can get them here to do just about anything.

Foreign servants are readily available to work in your home all day for $10 per day. Good luck getting a Canuck to do that.

The flood gates have been opened so that it is very easy to bring in Temporary Foreign Workers dirt cheap to replace Canadians for any job. 

Canada is now a great place to do business. It used to suck. Now it is very easy to undercut anyone who is employing Canadian staff and take business contracts etc. away from them and get the profit. 

As a Capitalist and shareholder, I love it.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Perhaps it's not that they're "anti big corporation" as much as they're pro middle class.


At least the appearance of "pro-middle class." As a member of that class, Bob Rae did more to damage my prospects than any other politician I can recall.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> NOOO! We have to give some more corp tax cuts FIRST!!!


Actually, what we need to do is raise taxes to pay for more welfare programs that we'll create. Then, once half the country is unemployed we'll disguise the actual numbers by not including people who have simply given up looking for work and are hopelessly & permanently on welfare, _et voila,_ 7% unemployment! Then, in order to ensure all the low information voters vote for us again, despite geometrically increasing debt and deficits (the likes of which the combined total of all the past gov'ts have never seen), we'll hand out Free Stuff™ like iPhones and cell phone plans. Next, we'll increase minimum wage and forcibly close down the portion of the country that employs the most people, small business! In addition we'll create this huge scare about poison in the atmosphere and global warming and force those nasty coal mines to close, all the while subsidizing (with, get this, their tax dollars!) alternatives that overall produce more GHG's than the problem they were created to fix. Plus, we'll take food off the tables of people the world over and pour them into our gas tanks. Perfect! Finally, we'll create this huge Charlie Foxtrot of a health care system where we'll lie and tell them that "They Can Keep Their Insurance And Their Doctor"™ and "Your rates Won't Go Up"™ knowing that all the sheeple will never question it because we distracted them with, you got it, Free Stuff™! 

That'll guarantee the country continues it's downward spiral into abject squalor, I mean, the perfect nanny state...


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Perhaps it's not that they're "anti big corporation" as much as they're pro middle class.


bingo. 

We keep hearing on how if you disagree with the corp tax cuts, suddenly you're anti-corp/nanny state/welfare program or whatever nonsense that gets flung.

Remember when Clinton raised the corp tax cuts yet somehow, magically, the economy roared despite that?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Remember when Clinton raised the corp tax cuts yet somehow, magically, the economy roared despite that?


You're having great difficulty with cause and effect. Clinton's tiny one per cent increase in corporate tax rates was accompanied by welfare reform, NAFTA and a huge reduction in the capital gains tax rate from 28% to 20%. Which do you think had the greater effect on the economy?

However, Clinton's own comment on that increase: "Probably there are people in this room still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. It might surprise you to know that I think I raised them too much, too.”


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You're having great difficulty with cause and effect. Clinton's tiny one per cent increase in corporate tax rates was accompanied by welfare reform, NAFTA and a huge reduction in the capital gains tax rate from 28% to 20%. Which do you think had the greater effect on the economy?
> 
> However, Clinton's own comment on that increase: "Probably there are people in this room still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. It might surprise you to know that I think I raised them too much, too.”


It's rather interesting that you pointed out many other things, BUT corporate tax cuts that could have an effect on the economy and job creation. Not cutting corporate taxes, even raising them a little, still didn't kill the economy that was in bad shape, nor impeded the creation of jobs!

Yet that wasn't Harper and co's message! They could have left corp tax rates right where they are, and gave tax relief to the middle class far more and invested better in infrastructure a whole lot sooner.


----------



## i-rui

FeXL said:


> Meaning that those of us who added anecdotal information to the discussion (18m2 & myself) claimed an increase in food bank usage. I certainly never said, nor implied, anything of the sort. 18m2 noted that yearly usage was up but placed no emphasis on the cause and most certainly did not attribute any part of the rise to "rich people are coming for free food."


it's been well established that food bank use is at record highs in this country. while i agree that "rich" people aren't coming in for free food, the antidotes posted seemed to imply that many of those using food banks are not in need. To that point i would argue that no one is qualified to make that judgment from a brief snapshot of interaction with someone.



FeXL said:


> I also see a huge difference between "gaming the system" when no actual laws are being broken (albeit liberally interpreted) and openly stealing food from people who need it far more than they do.


wait, we're talking about people who have qualified for assistance, not thieves who are breaking in to food banks. If they qualified for the program then they are not "openly stealing" anything. Once again, i'm sure some are abusing the system, but if they're doing it legally i see very little difference then a corporation abusing tax loopholes.



FeXL said:


> And, no, I do not believe, nor ever implied, that food banks, etc., should be shut down due to abuse.


i certainly never implied you did. perhaps someone else did, but i didn't notice.

My comments boil down to the fact that a few bad apples do not destroy the credibility of food banks.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> At least the appearance of "pro-middle class." As a member of that class, Bob Rae did more to damage my prospects than any other politician I can recall.


Harris was my boogieman.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's rather interesting that you pointed out many other things, BUT corporate tax cuts that could have an effect on the economy and job creation. Not cutting corporate taxes, even raising them a little, still didn't kill the economy that was in bad shape, nor impeded the creation of jobs!


A one per cent corporate tax increase, among other corporate tax cuts and NAFTA. It provided only a small drag on the economy compared to those better decisions, for a net gain.

Kind of like saying you consumed poutine and antibiotics while suffering from an infection--then declaring that all people with infections should eat more poutine. You would debate your detractors by asking them to prove that the poutine could not possibly have contributed to your cure.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Perhaps it's not that they're "anti big corporation" as much as they're pro middle class.


The two (being pro business/corporation and pro middle class) are not mutually exclusive although one party does seem to believe that.


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> You do NOT need to be a big business to hire TFW's. You do not even need to be a business to hire them. All you need to do is go to one of many foreign recruitment agencies and fill an LMO (Labour Market Opinion) *with BS to the government and you can get them here to do just about anything.*
> 
> Foreign servants are readily available to work in your home all day for $10 per day. Good luck getting a Canuck to do that.
> 
> The flood gates have been opened *so that it is very easy to bring in Temporary Foreign Workers dirt cheap to replace Canadians for any job. *
> 
> Canada is now a great place to do business. It used to suck. Now it is very easy to undercut anyone who is employing Canadian staff and take business contracts etc. away from them and get the profit.
> 
> As a Capitalist and shareholder, I love it.


That simply is not true there are clear definitions in place. It is not "*very easy to bring in Temporary Foreign Workers dirt cheap to replace Canadians for any job*." that is completely a false statement.


----------



## BigDL

Do some people here realize that the uptake in food bank use is because working people can't afford housing/heating, food, transportation even though some families have two full time workers in the household?

People are working jobs with sub standard wages as a result of Federal Government policies. Good paying jobs have been shipped off shore. The remaining available jobs pay low wages.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> A one per cent corporate tax increase, among other corporate tax cuts and NAFTA. It provided only a small drag on the economy compared to those better decisions, for a net gain.
> 
> Kind of like saying you consumed poutine and antibiotics while suffering from an infection--then declaring that all people with infections should eat more poutine. You would debate your detractors by asking them to prove that the poutine could not possibly have contributed to your cure.


actually that analogy neatly shows you haven't read my posts. 

I haven't suggested a -raise- in corp taxes, i suggested doing nothing to them. So, unfortunately for your little analogy, there is, no 'poutine'.

In fact it's the way around. you and others were for corporate tax cuts, and the conservatives insisting this would have the desired effect of created jobs. I have yet to see this 'poutine' as you call it have such an effect.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Do some people here realize that the uptake in food bank use is because working people can't afford housing/heating, food, transportation even though some families have two full time workers in the household?
> 
> People are working jobs with sub standard wages as a result of Federal Government policies. Good paying jobs have been shipped off shore. The remaining available jobs pay low wages.


bingo.

How dare anyone demand a livable wage. Until they're living in a shanty and walking to work, they can't possibly be needy.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The two (being pro business/corporation and pro middle class) are not mutually exclusive...


agreed.



screature said:


> ...although one party does seem to believe that.


hopefully one day the Conservatives will become more reasonable.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Do some people here realize that the uptake in food bank use is because working people can't afford housing/heating, food, transportation even though some families have two full time workers in the household?
> *
> People are working jobs with sub standard wages as a result of Federal Government policies.* Good paying jobs have been shipped off shore. The remaining available jobs pay low wages.


Nonsense. Federal government policies have nothing to do the wages businesses are paying. If anything their policies allow big business to pay their employees more, if they do not that is not the fault of the feds.

As I said before SME's constitute the majority of jobs in this country and they are not shipping jobs over seas. It may fit your rhetoric to make such statements but they are not borne out in fact. 

Just to add minimum wage is provincial jurisdiction although again that does not fit you over arching rhetoric but it is a fact.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> agreed.
> 
> *
> hopefully one day the Conservatives will become more reasonable*.


Good one a real knee slapper. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

oh dear...
Justice Minister says homeless should sell property to pay court fines | Press Progress


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh dear...
> Justice Minister says homeless should sell property to pay court fines | Press Progress


What a piece of crap journalism that is, we are talking about convicted criminals not the homeless persay, just that they happen to be homeless criminals . Also I think 50 years is a reasonable time frame to pay off $100 or $200 dollars.

I listened to the interview with this Justice on CBC this morning and in the end he isn't so much against the surcharge he just doesn't think he should be responsible for applying it, he thinks it should be up to some administrator and so now he is getting "creative" as a means of upholding the law which is his sworn duty.

That he speaks of criminals as being victims themselves (the devil made them do it) just goes to show how far off the rails he has gone.


----------



## screature

double post


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> actually that analogy neatly shows you haven't read my posts.
> 
> I haven't suggested a -raise- in corp taxes, i suggested doing nothing to them. So, unfortunately for your little analogy, there is, no 'poutine'.
> 
> In fact it's the way around. you and others were for corporate tax cuts, and the conservatives insisting this would have the desired effect of created jobs. I have yet to see this 'poutine' as you call it have such an effect.


I support lower taxes for everyone on moral grounds--because it is their money, not the government's. I've certainly never said that lowering corporate taxes promises more jobs, but it does keep companies operating in Canada competitive.


----------



## Stink

.


----------



## screature

Well I guess if there were ever a case to be made for mods, Stink would be it... undoubtedly a case of wishing to impose policy via "do what I say and not do what I do".

What a childish coward. And yet somehow he thinks himself to be ever so clever...

Do you show your children what you are doing and try and justify it to them and encourage them to do the same. If so someone should call family services.

What a great example you are setting.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Well I guess if there were ever a case to be made for mods, Stink would be it... undoubtedly a case of wishing to impose policy via "say what I say and not what I do.
> 
> What a coward.


Do what I did and put Jimbotel/Skippy AKA Stink on ignore. Don't see that **** anymore.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Do what I did and put Jimbotel/Skippy AKA Stink on ignore. Don't see that **** anymore.


Yes you are right. Done.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

screature said:


> That simply is not true there are clear definitions in place. It is not "*very easy to bring in Temporary Foreign Workers dirt cheap to replace Canadians for any job*." that is completely a false statement.


All you have to do is put up an ad looking for workers, don't accept any of them, and then tell them that no one was available for the job. This is being done in places with very high unemployment for low skilled jobs. Use legal resources to get LMO's approved in the very rare instances if they don't rubber stamp it right away. 

B.C. mine's temporary foreign workers case dismissed - British Columbia - CBC News

Who hires temporary foreign workers? You’d be surprised - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> All you have to do is put up an ad looking for workers, don't accept any of them, and then tell them that no one was available for the job. This is being done in places with very high unemployment for low skilled jobs. Use legal resources to get LMO's approved in the very rare instances if they don't rubber stamp it right away.
> 
> B.C. mine's temporary foreign workers case dismissed - British Columbia - CBC News
> 
> Who hires temporary foreign workers? You’d be surprised - National | Globalnews.ca


So what you are saying it is very easy if you lie. 

Well, that is true of a great many things including filing taxes. As with most of our systems we rely on the honesty of those filling out the forms.

But god forbid if we try to put systems in place to catch offenders in the tax system, EI system, etc., etc. etc. due to lack of privacy complaints etc. 

Same wanting to eat cake and have it too as always on the part of some citizens... too much gubbermint, too litle gubberment.... same as it ever was and will be... some people will always want to straddle both sides of the fence so long as it suits them.


----------



## groovetube

have we forgotten about that little program the feds extended pretty heavily? The whole debacle with financial institutions replacing Canadians workers with foreign ones?

At my wife's place they were doing that quite a bit. In fact the laid off ones had to train the new ones brought in from somewhere else for an added stab. As it was reported, it was happening quite a bit.

It took some bad publicity to get the government to back this down. Didn't anyone in there think this might be a bad idea? A good example of when we need government to prevent this sort of thing, because corps will do whatever they can to make more money. A screw Canadians.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> have we forgotten about that little program the feds extended pretty heavily? The whole debacle with financial institutions replacing Canadians workers with foreign ones?
> 
> At my wife's place they were doing that quite a bit. *In fact the laid of ones* had to train the new ones brought in from somewhere else for an added stab. As it was reported, it was happening quite a bit.
> 
> It took some bad publicity to get the government to back this down. Didn't anyone in there think this might be a bad idea? A good example of when we need government to prevent this sort of thing, because corps will do whatever they can to make more money. A screw Canadians.


Who were the ones laid? One has to be curious about that kind of stuff going on at your wife's place?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Who were the ones laid? One has to be curious about that kind of stuff going on at your wife's place?


real class. But then, that's what we expect...

It's pretty sad when someone stoops low enough to make disgusting remarks about another's wife.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> real class. But then, that's what we expect...
> 
> It's pretty sad when someone stoops low enough to make disgusting remarks about another's wife.


Hey, it was you who send the post, I was just curious. Do you actually read what you post? I merely point out how lack of attention to detail can make things appear to be what they are likely not


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> have we forgotten about that little program the feds extended pretty heavily? The whole debacle with financial institutions replacing Canadians workers with foreign ones?


It was always require for HRSDC to provide a labour market opinion in each case when Temporary Foreign Workers were used. Place this one squarely at the feet of the bureaucrats who remain in position, regardless of which government is in power.


----------



## FeXL

And damn proud of it, too, thankyouverymuch...

The most pro-capitalism place in N. America? Surprise...



> And here’s the ranking for economic freedom in states and provinces. As you can see, Alberta and Saskatchewan are in the top two spots, followed by the American states of Delaware, Texas, and Nevada.


Interesting.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> And damn proud of it, too, thankyouverymuch...
> 
> The most pro-capitalism place in N. America? Surprise...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.


Canada is now much more free and business friendly than most US states--especially when you subtract Ontario from the equation.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Canada is now much more free and business friendly than most US states--especially when you subtract Ontario from the equation.


Sounds like a lot of useless chest thumping to me.

It's as if no one has ever visited downtown Toronto's financial district or something. :lmao:

Seems pretty capitalist around here to me. Oh but since Ontario doesn't have a conservative provincial government, (and that's the measure of how capitalist you are...) everyone is a soooooocialist.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Oh but since Ontario doesn't have a conservative provincial government, (and that's the measure of how capitalist you are...) everyone is a soooooocialist.


At least you got that part right.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Duffy says "Hello"*

Duffy says hi

What a guy!


----------



## groovetube

That's disturbing


----------



## screature

Andrew Coyne gets it.

Call him awkward, maybe, but James Moore is no Scrooge



> Possibly you have read of the shocking statements on child poverty this week from the federal minister of Industry, James Moore. I’ll repeat them here for the record, with a warning that the contents may be disturbing to some readers:
> 
> “Of course nobody wants kids to go to school hungry. … We want to make sure that kids go to school full-bellied. … Empowering families with more power and resources so that they can feed their own children is, I think, a good thing.”
> 
> Mind you, those may not have been the statements you read. What you would be more likely to have seen quoted, from a scrum with a Vancouver radio reporter, would be: “Is it my job to feed my neighbour’s child? I don’t think so,” or “is that always the government’s job to be there to serve people their breakfast?” The story appeared on the radio station’s website under the headline “Federal minister says child poverty not Ottawa’s problem.”
> 
> Which was the more representative expression of the minister’s thinking: the part where he expressed support for “empowering families with more power and resources” to “make sure that kids go to school full-bellied”? Or the part where he asked whether it was “always the government’s job to … serve people their breakfast”? The only logical answer is both. He said them together. He meant them to be taken together.
> 
> The statements were part of a long, rambling answer which the minister probably regrets giving. He had been asked — challenged, might be better: “Child poverty in B.C. is at an all-time high. What does the federal government plan to do about that?” The question, it is evident from the tape, flummoxed him, and it’s not hard to see why.
> 
> One, the rate of child poverty is not at an all time-high. The measurement of poverty is a hugely contentious issue, but by the standard long favoured by poverty activist groups, Statistics Canada’s Low Income Cut-off (after tax), poverty is in fact at an all-time low in Canada, at 8.8 per cent of the population; child poverty, at 8.5 per cent, is just off its low. There remains a particular problem in B.C., with a rate of child poverty of 11.3 per cent. But this, too, is well down from its peak — it was over 19 per cent just a decade ago — and lower than at most times in the last 40 years.
> 
> Two, the direct relief of poverty is primarily a provincial jurisdiction, at least as far as social assistance is concerned. The federal government helps, whether in the form of transfers to the provinces, or in benefits delivered to individuals: the National Child Tax Benefit, the Working Income Tax Benefit, the Guaranteed Income Supplement for the elderly, and so on.
> 
> And of course the feds have some responsibility for the general state of the economy, the rate of unemployment and growth, on which the incidence of poverty crucially depends. The reason poverty has fallen so far over the last two decades is in large measure due to the steady growth we have experienced through most of that period.
> 
> All of these were no doubt coursing through Moore’s head in that instant. And in the moments that followed, he attempted to stammer them out. “We’re not going to usurp the province’s jurisdiction on that,” he began. “How one certainly scales and define poverty is not quite an apples to apples comparison all across the country. … More Canadians are working now than ever before. … We’ve never been wealthier as a country .…” And then those seemingly contradictory passages about “empowering families with resources” but not actually serving them their breakfast.
> 
> All well and good. But no one that I am aware of has proposed that the feds should operate school breakfast programs.
> 
> It’s clumsy, it’s ill-phrased, it leaves much unsaid and says much that might have been better not. But it’s also, by and large, true. Social assistance is provincial jurisdiction. Poverty definitions do vary. Both employment and household net worth are at an all-time high. As for the concluding passages: Is it to be disputed that, as a general rule, it is parents’ responsibility to feed their kids? Where aid is provided, is it not at least arguable that we should pay benefits in cash, rather than in services — letting families, rather than caseworkers, decide how they should be spent? Isn’t that, in part, what Sen. Hugh Segal’s campaign for a guaranteed annual income is about?
> 
> To be sure, the minister might have done better to have peppered these with “of course, any amount of child poverty is too much,” that “while we have made great progress, there is always more we can do.” But we are a long way from the sentiments his critics have since attributed to him, of which “are there no workhouses” might give the flavour.
> 
> The minister’s statements, shocking as they seem in isolation, were indeed quoted out of context, as he later protested: context, not just in the sense of the words that surround the quoted passages, but also everything we know about the person who made them. Moore has said nothing previously to suggest a belief that children should be left to starve, a fact that would have been known to most of those who cited the story. Yet he was pilloried as if he had.
> 
> Because he had said something that was capable of being interpreted that way, and under the rules of the political game, you lose as many points if not more for that: hence the minister’s subsequent abject apology. Perhaps that’s fair enough. He is in the communications business. Staying out of needless trouble is part of his job description. I say needless: this was not a brave but necessary challenge to the status quo, intended to provoke debate. It was an inept answer to a loaded question, the political equivalent of a kick-me sign.
> 
> Call him maladroit, then. But Scrooge, he is not.


----------



## CubaMark

_Letter from a Canada Post mail carrier:_

*Canada Post wants to eliminate my job as a letter carrier. Here's why you should care*












> ut we. Are. Busy. We are not an obsolete company and we are not a burden on the taxpayer. We are funded 100 percent on our own revenues, not your tax dollars. We have made a large (like hundreds of millions of dollars large) profit in 17 of the last 18 years, and even last year, our first year in the red, 7,402 performance bonuses were still paid out, so we can't be doing too badly. Our job has changed with the times and will continue to change with the times but we will still not be obsolete. The service we provide is essential and not only would stopping door-to-door service be unnecessary, it would also drastically damage it.





> There is more to my job than sliding flyers through a slot. My job is to deliver you a better world. As young, hip and accessible as we believe ourselves to be, our aging population's old hips have made the world inaccessible. Although small businesses and the physically disabled need us just as much, our seniors rely more on daily delivery service than any other Canadian demographic, and they are the majority. They rely on us not only to deliver their mail, they rely on us for guaranteed human contact once a day. Do not underestimate that.
> 
> "Get the 'net!" you say? Oh, stop it with your luxury talk, it's not that simple. Many can't afford the internet and others would be overwhelmed by its complexities. (I once tried to explain 'internet' to my step-grandfather and it was ridiculous.) Combine limited income with limited mobility and the idea of cutting door-to-door service is reprehensible.
> 
> Moreover, the internet has systematically phased out human contact, and through it, a human connection. In exchange for profit and speed, we are losing the ability to make someone feel special. This world does not need more ways to make people feel isolated. While technology has vastly improved our lives in some ways, it has taken the humanity out of being a human.


(TheCoast)


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## groovetube

Ontario Tories unveil $2 billion-a-year transit plan | Toronto Star



> But his plan for actually paying for all the new lines is vague.


As it always is. The cons love to promise unicorns and rainbows, somehow this won't cost a dime!

But it always does, and they don't like being honest about how.


----------



## CubaMark

Deepak Chopra is getting roasted on Twitter / comments on the CBC story about his comments regarding seniors "apparently" telling him that they'd welcome the exercise walking to community supermailboxes... some of 'em are really well-put...



> *Tony Tracy*
> _@Tony_Tracy_
> Canada Post CEO Deepak Chopra also suggests seniors would get a great cardiovascular workout from jogging to hospitals instead of ambulance.





> *L. Lea*
> _@YukonGale_
> Dear Deepak Chopra, it's -45°C w windchill in #Whitehorse today. Seniors love to go out in that w oxygen & walkers to get mail. #Cdnpoli





> _"Senior citizens and the disabled are not going away and will only increase in number over the next 40 years.
> This is a very callous, short-sighted and mistaken decision and it has Harper government written all over it,"_





> *Asked how the post office would accommodate people with disabilities, Chopra said extra mailbox keys would be given to people so others could pick up their mail. *
> _"So now seniors basically have to make their own arrangements to get their mail. What will protect them if one of these good Samaritans uses this 'service' to get a hold of their pension checks? Honestly, I didn't think much about community mailboxes. I have one and I don't mind it in the least. I can understand the cost savings. But there is NO EXCUSE to treat people this coldly,"_ said DanceSmartly.


----------



## groovetube

Curious as to where they're going to put these community boxes in the really dense downtown streets.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> _Letter from a Canada Post mail carrier:_


_

That they paid bonuses while the company was failing is nothing to be proud of. Canada Post is a burden on Canadians because it's a monopoly on letter carrying. We mus pay the price of a stamp regardless of how badly managed the company is, how many bonuses it hands out, and how generous the pensions are.

Canada Post doesn't cost taxpayers a dime?




Facing payments of $1 billion to its pension plan in 2014, *Canada Post says it is asking federal government for cash *or other relief.

Click to expand...

Canada Post faces $1B pension shortfall | Toronto Star_


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*At Issue Panel review - 2013*

If Coyne is correct robocalls will blow up in Harper's face in 2014. I hope he's right.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f47fiSeU0kM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUKjU3KzdbJE1EFcHVqXC3_g]At Issue: Year-Ender Edition - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

Coyne is not correct. Even the so-called Senate scandals haven't done that.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Even the so-called Senate scandals haven't done that.


:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

please sir, can I have some more (Harper)?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## Sonal

Supreme Court of Canada unanimously strikes down anti-prostitution laws as being unconstitutional.

(The legal details are important, so if you are unfamiliar, it may be wise to read up on them before replying.)

Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws - Politics - CBC News

Some background info:
Prostitution law ruling expected from Supreme Court today - Politics - CBC News

Bedford v. Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Macfury

_Bed_ford--yuk, yuk!


----------



## Dr.G.

Ontario school boards skirted wage freeze with raises for senior staff - The Globe and Mail

Oops. Luckily, this is only dealing with ON, and not the rest of Canada.


----------



## MacDoc

Let's see how many people Harpo can alienate dealing with this 

Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Let's see how many people Harpo can alienate dealing with this
> 
> Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws - Politics - CBC News


Didn't you think Sonal's post just two places up was good enough? Don't you ever read the threads here before posting?


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Didn't you think Sonal's post just two places up was good enough? Don't you ever read the threads here before posting?


Of course not, he just wants to harp on Harper


----------



## FeXL

MacDoc said:


> Let's see how many people Harpo can alienate dealing with this


Obviously he's alienated you. That's good news already.


----------



## screature

Ha! A very good read.

The feared, the beard or the weird: Pick one



> So the headliners are all signed up now for the next federal election. It's Harper, Mulcair and Trudeau: the feared, the beard and the weird.
> 
> There had been some doubt about Stephen Harper. The prime minister's critics in the press had been saying he was past his best-beforedate, that he was damaged beyond repair, that he should and, any day now, probably would step down.
> 
> They wish. Harper, who has never even hinted that he might do otherwise, this week confirmed that he's not going anywhere. And why would he? He will be looking at the cranky Thomas Mulcair and the flaky Justin Trudeau and thinking, I am going to demolish these guys. That's what his critics are afraid of.
> 
> Sitting prime ministers don't often retire, anyway, except late in the game when they are facing certain defeat. So it was with Pierre Trudeau and Brian Mulroney. Both stepped off the train just before it went over a cliff. Others such as John Diefenbaker, John Turner, Joe Clark, Kim Campbell and Paul Martin, rode the train down to impact.
> 
> Jean Chretien didn't get to choose whether to jump or hang on. He was pushed off the train by Paul Martin, whose reward was to wear his engineer's hat in the ensuing wreck.
> 
> Of Canada's 17 prime ministers, only two bequeathed to their successors a party that was not on life-support. Harper is not going to make it three.
> 
> On paper, at least, he still looks like the favourite. Harper has won three successive elections, knocking three successive challengers over the ropes, out of the ring and, in two cases, right out of the arena. This time he faces opponents who have never led a federal campaign. If you will indulge me another sports metaphor, he is Gordie Howe going into the corner with rookies.
> 
> A divided opposition further improves Harper's prospects of coming away with the puck. Voters who want rid of him have two ways to go. If they are evenly split between the beard and the weird, Harper can win another majority with a third of the vote, plus one.
> 
> It helps that Canada's economy is doing relatively well. Yes, the recovery still is fragile, but economic fragility seems to be the new normal, worldwide. That's one more reason for voters not to support the weird or the beard. While Harper offers economic stability, they offer legal marijuana and a resurrected Wheat Board, respectively.
> 
> It helps Harper, too, that federal taxes are lower than they have been in decades. Some say taxes are too low, but no one is going to win an election by promising to correct this.
> 
> But what about the Senate scandal? Well, what about it? Harper certainly is responsible for appointing a couple of self-serving senators, but their padded expense accounts were Senate business, not government business. When one of the senators approached Harper for help, he was told to pay back what he owed. How is this scandalous? How is it scandalous when a prime ministerial functionary finally repaid from his own pocket what Mike Duffy was accused of misappropriating? Usually a scandal involves someone taking from the public purse, not replenishing it.
> 
> With the national press obsessing over the Senate scandal, Harper's European trade agreement has been all but overlooked. Even so, the agreement still will matter on election day, two years hence. A scandal over the prime minister telling someone to do the right thing, not so much.
> 
> Yes, Harper's Conservatives are trailing Justin Trudeau's Liberals in the public opinion polls. Harper's Conservatives also trailed the Liberals at one time or another under their three previous leaders, before he ejected them from the ring. Trudeau certainly is an attractive candidate, but weak on substance. This is what we look for in a beauty-pageant contestant, not a prime minister.
> 
> Mulcair is not such an attractive candidate. As leader of the official Opposition leader, he has gone all but unnoticed. When voters finally take a hard look at him in his first national campaign, Mulcair will remind them of their ex's divorce lawyer.
> 
> With only the beard and the weird between Harper and another term in office, quitting would not have occurred to him.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Ha! A very good read.
> 
> The feared, the beard or the weird: Pick one


It kinda reads like a conservative's wish list to be honest.

I never thought Harper was even close to stepping down, unless something really bad went down, he's going to be fighting the next election without question.

Harper has used the fear of economic uncertainty for quite some time now. It's hard to know if that's going to continue to work for him this time round.


----------



## Macfury

You couldn't have picked a worse successor to Layton than the charmless, "Beard."


----------



## SINC

Hmm, that avatar has two out of three, the beard and the weird. :lmao: How appropriate.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It kinda reads like a conservative's wish list to be honest.
> 
> *I never thought Harper was even close to stepping down*, unless something really bad went down, he's going to be fighting the next election without question.
> 
> Harper has used the fear of economic uncertainty for quite some time now. It's hard to know if that's going to continue to work for him this time round.


There were numerous articles in the media of late that we speculating exactly that. I guess you must not have read them.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You couldn't have picked a worse successor to Layton than the charmless, "Beard."


quite possibly very true, though that will be a big plus for the "weird"!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You couldn't have picked a worse successor to Layton than the charmless, "Beard."


"Charmless" is a generous euphemism MacFury.

How The Grinch Stole Christmas song lyrics are more to the point:



> *You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch*
> You really are a heel,
> *You're as cuddly as a cactus, you're as charming as an eel, Mr. Grinch,*
> You're a bad banana with a greasy black peel!
> 
> You're a monster, Mr. Grinch,
> Your heart's an empty hole,
> Your brain is full of spiders, you have garlic in your soul, Mr. Grinch,
> *I wouldn't touch you with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole!*
> 
> You're a foul one, Mr. Grinch,
> *You have termites in your smile,
> You have all the tender sweetness of a seasick crocodile, Mr. Grinch,
> Given a choice between the two of you I'd take the seasick crocodile!*
> 
> You're a rotter, Mr. Grinch,
> You're the king of sinful sots,
> Your heart's a dead tomato splotched with moldy purple spots, Mr. Grinch,
> You're a three decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwich with arsenic sauce!
> 
> You nauseate me, Mr. Grinch,
> With a nauseous super "naus"!,
> You're a crooked dirty jockey and you drive a crooked hoss, Mr. Grinch,
> Your soul is an appalling dump heap overflowing with the most disgraceful
> assortment of rubbish imaginable mangled up in tangled up knots!
> 
> You're a foul one, Mr. Grinch,
> You're a nasty wasty skunk,
> *Your heart is full of unwashed socks, your soul is full of gunk, Mr. Grinch,
> The three words that best describe you are as follows, and I quote,
> "Stink, stank, stunk"!*


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> quite possibly very true,* though that will be a big plus for the "weird"!*


God help us all.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> God help us all.


Most Canadians are thinking the same for the 'feared'


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Most Canadians are thinking the same for the 'feared'


With 5 political parties the phrase, *most Canadians*, doesn't exist, or at least it doesn't exist for any given leader or political party and the latest polls bear this out. All that exists is a plurality of Canadians.

*Most Canadians* is a null set at this point in time.

*null set*

Noun 1. null set - a set that is empty; a set with no members.

i.e. there is no majority/(most) of Canadians among the electorate that have stated their intentions to support one leader/party.

However, if the statement was changed to be* Most Canadians are not in favour of any one leader/political party over the other*, then that statement would be true at this point in time.

Time will tell if this changes.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

No more temporary foreign workers for businesses linked to sex trade: Jason Kenney | National Post

Temporary Foreign Workers In Sex Trade No Longer Allowed: Jason Kenney

Strippers Sent Packing Because Of Policy Change

The War on Strippers

Read the comments.

The prostitution laws have to be redone. Soon we can bring in foreign "entertainment" as strippers and prostitutes on official government paperwork once again. The legal change never stopped them from coming over to do this, just the terminology and job description in the paperwork.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-do...f-friends-who-do-said-Harper/1415034608710354


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-do...f-friends-who-do-said-Harper/1415034608710354




It shows that you haven't been around here for a while. This was discussed at length at the time, it was said by the PM a long time ago (I believe in June or early July) and it was quite clear the comment was made tongue in cheek.


----------



## Dr.G.

For two years, Conservatives will be all about the 10 per cent - The Globe and Mail

An interesting article as to the Conservative government's focus leading up to the next election.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> For two years, Conservatives will be all about the 10 per cent - The Globe and Mail
> 
> An interesting article as to the Conservative government's focus leading up to the next election.


Gee that is an earth shattering opinion piece by Simpson... 

*ALL* political parties pander to their base. This is what constitutes "news" these days?

Instead of looking at how low the standard of politics has become these days an educated person (not you Dr. G.) would do well to consider how low media reporting has become.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Gee that is an earth shattering opinion piece by Simpson...
> 
> *ALL* political parties pander to their base. This is what constitutes "news" these days?
> 
> Instead of looking at how low the standard of politics has become these days an educated person (not you Dr. G.) would do well to consider how low media reporting has become.


Could be an interesting dilemma for Harpo. About 3-5% of his base are Canadians with some ties to the US. I would suggest that this group is more likely to vote in a federal election than the general population. I would also suggest they have been more likely to vote for Cons.

If the Harpo regime caves in to the US on FATCA, many of these individuals will be directly and immediately impacted. If the Swiss and French scenarios play out here, the most immediate effect will be that they are forced to close their Canadian bank accounts or worse yet have them frozen. They will be unable to obtain or renew mortgages. God help them if they have any US based investments, they stand to lose at least 30% of those. 

So should Harpo cave he may well turn a strong area of support into one that turns out at close to 100% and votes against him by a very large margin. Believe me when Americans are mad they vote.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Could be an interesting dilemma for Harpo. About 3-5% of his base are Canadians with some ties to the US. I would suggest that this group is more likely to vote in a federal election than the general population. I would also suggest they have been more likely to vote for Cons.
> 
> If the Harpo regime caves in to the US on FATCA, many of these individuals will be directly and immediately impacted. If the Swiss and French scenarios play out here, the most immediate effect will be that they are forced to close their Canadian bank accounts or worse yet have them frozen. They will be unable to obtain or renew mortgages. God help them if they have any US based investments, they stand to lose at least 30% of those.
> 
> So should Harpo cave he may well turn a strong area of support into one that turns out at close to 100% and votes against him by a very large margin. Believe me when Americans are mad they vote.


Uh and you really believe a Lib or NDP government would do anything differently on this front? If so I respectfully suggest you are kidding yourself. 

Tax treaties with the US are so well entrenched that rocking the boat with the US on this front is simply theatre and the US will do what the US wants to do and everyone else has to tow the line.

Better to just get your s**t in order so that you are not in violation and stop "harping" on it. 

This is *NOT* even a minor issue in the next election in terms of out come. Time to get over it and do what you need to do. Renounce your US citizenship and be done with it. 

I know it is a process but why do you still want to cling on when it no longer seems to serve you in a positive way?


----------



## MazterCBlazter

screature said:


> It shows that you haven't been around here for a while. This was discussed at length at the time, it was said by the PM a long time ago (I believe in June or early July) and it was quite clear the comment was made tongue in cheek.


I usually don't participate in Canadian forums when outside of Canada.

Harper: "I didn't know that Nigel Wright wrote a cheque to Mike Duffy, but many of my friends knew."


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> I usually don't participate in Canadian forums when outside of Canada.
> 
> Harper:* "I didn't know that Nigel Wright wrote a cheque to Mike Duffy, but many of my friends knew." *


Shenanigans. He never said that, as you well know.

So MCB, it is nice to have you back but not at the expense of decorum around here as some of us have been working hard to improve it so I respectfully request (as one of those making an effort) that you not deliberately make an attempt to stir the pot where it isn't necessary.

Maybe you can read back a few dozens of pages of posts or so before posting to a form to see what has already been covered and then your posts won't come across as so anachronistic/antagonistic.

Just a thought...


----------



## MazterCBlazter

screature said:


> Shenanigans. He never said that, as you well know.
> 
> So MCB, it is nice to have you back but not at the expense of decorum around here as some of us have been working hard to improve it so I respectfully request (as one of those making an effort) that you not deliberately make an attempt to stir the pot where it isn't necessary.
> 
> Maybe you can read back a few dozens of pages of posts or so before posting to a form to see what has already been covered and then your posts won't come across as so anachronistic/antagonistic.
> 
> Just a thought...


Antagonistic? Yeesh. I guess you missed the wink. 

I read back a few but must have missed the one where this was discussed.


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> Antagonistic? Yeesh. I guess you missed the wink.
> 
> I read back a few but must have missed the one where this was discussed.


I didn't miss the wink, but a wink means different things depending on who is the "winker".

Merry whatever you choose to celebrate this time of year.


----------



## groovetube

I don't see anything wrong with some sarcasm and winkies, as long as it's all topic based and not attacks on people personally.

Merry christmas and happy holidays!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *I don't see anything wrong with some sarcasm and winkies,* as long as it's all topic based and not attacks on people personally.
> 
> Merry christmas and happy holidays!


Neither do, that was not my point. My point was, depending on who is the originator they can mean different things.


----------



## groovetube

Yes. The thing with forums is, often feathers get ruffled because missing are the facial expressions, and tone of voice,

Cheers!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Yes. The thing with forums is, often feathers get ruffled because missing are the facial expressions, and tone of voice,



Ah... So all your trolling, lying & name calling has all been one big misunderstanding because we couldn't see your facial expression or hear your voice. Is that the thrust?

Frankly, groove, I would have loved to have been close enough to see your face & hear your voice when you called me a misogynistic liar...


----------



## groovetube

Military budget cuts leave cadets without parkas | CTV News

Wow. Whatever happened to giving the military what it needs, and all that criticism of the liberals for starving the military?

Where did all that money go? Looks like the corporations needed lots and lots of cash to hoard... er... create jobs.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Where did all that money go? Looks like the corporations needed lots and lots of cash to hoard... er... create jobs.


This line is getting tiresome. Corporations aren't here to hire people. They spur economic activity that will probably lead to greater employment over the long run. Other than corporations, who is going to hire anyone directly? We're not a nation of itinerant handymen and gardeners.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This line is getting tiresome. Corporations aren't here to hire people. They spur economic activity that will probably lead to greater employment over the long run. Other than corporations, who is going to hire anyone directly? We're not a nation of itinerant handymen and gardeners.


Two things.

There's not a shred of evidence that corporate tax cuts leads to more jobs.

Second, have you forgotten, that Small businesses is a huge employer??? And often responsible for more jobs? Corporations cash hoarding isn't helping anything. Now, or long term.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Two things.
> 
> There's not a shred of evidence that corporate tax cuts leads to more jobs.
> 
> Second, have you forgotten, that Small businesses is a huge employer??? And often responsible for more jobs? Corporations cash hoarding isn't helping anything. Now, or long term.


Most small businesses are incorporated.


----------



## groovetube

Provicially usually, if at all.

What are the percentages?

Massively overwhelming number of business here is under 5 employees or just contract workers.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Provicially usually, if at all.
> 
> What are the percentages?
> 
> Massively overwhelming number of business here is under 5 employees or just contract workers.


Now you're saying that corporations DO employ people, but it doesn't count because they're provincial corporations? Or because they hire contract workers?

That makes no sense to me.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Now you're saying that corporations DO employ people, but it doesn't count because they're provincial corporations? Or because they hire contract workers?
> 
> That makes no sense to me.


What? Given the context of the topic, your questions make zero sense.

It was about the federal government insisting, that huge tax breaks for corporations (federal tax rate...) were required for job creation.

How in your words, does this affect the massive number of small businesses? Osmosis? How many small businesses are in orporated vs non? Provincially vs federally?

Do all these small businesses get all their work from federally incorporated corporations?

How does this all play out? Do the board members all sit around and say, hey, we have all these tax breaks, let's magically make more grapple grommets and hire more people?

I'm curious as to what your take is on this. I recall the only response I got a while back from some was some feeble job creation report, and 'isn't it obvious!' Or something to that effect. I don't recall what your take was specifically.


----------



## Macfury

Let's start at the beginning. First, find me the promise you are talking about--the one where the federal government said that "massive" corporate tax cuts would create a certain number of jobs. We'll take it one step at a time from there.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!*

.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


wait, what? Let's start at the beginning, and we'll work our way through this mess to make some sense of it.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> weeeee


What do you think the cartoon means, jimbo? What is supposedly happening in 2014?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> What do you think the cartoon means, jimbo? What is supposedly happening in 2014?


My guess is that some how the roller coaster represents poll(s) and the Cons are going to plummet off a cliff in 2014. If that is indeed the meaning of the cartoon then I think they have greatly underestimated what the possible out come may be.


----------



## groovetube

it will be an interesting year to watch to see what the conservatives do to change the tide.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> it will be an interesting year to watch to see what the conservatives do to change the tide.


It isn't only about what the cons do IMO. It is also what the NDP and the Libs do that can make a difference. Depends of who goofs up more, there are still plenty of opportunities for "foot in mouth disease" on the part of all parties.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*So long and close the door behind you when you're finished*

Is 'a walk in the snow' in Stephen Harper's future? - Politics - CBC News

The combined effect of the Harper PMO-Senate scandal and robocall scandal should be enough to push him out. It's going to be great 2014!


----------



## Macfury

Those two scandals will ensure that no reporters will vote for them next year.


----------



## groovetube

this just in, all pollsters are found to be polling reporters exclusively.

Which results in wildly favourable numbers for opposition parties only while conservatives are in power, 9 times out of 10.

Personally, I think Harper will hang on despite any of these reports. He'll get his ass handed to him in 2015 before he'll even think about stepping down.


----------



## kps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Is 'a walk in the snow' in Stephen Harper's future? - Politics - CBC News
> 
> The combined effect of the Harper PMO-Senate scandal and robocall scandal should be enough to push him out. It's going to be great 2014!












🔽

Skippy shopping with mummy


----------



## groovetube

I think the same cartoon can be written for either side.

It'll be an interesting crap show for the next year and a half. Just waiting for Harper's "charm offensive"


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I think the same cartoon can be written for either side.












But it wasn't, was it….tomatoe, tomato,potatoe, potato...:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

kps said:


> 🔽
> 
> Skippy shopping with mummy


Interesting. I anticipate a minority conservative govt. in the next election. The dauphin will have to wait 2 - 3 years after 2015.


----------



## kps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Interesting. I anticipate a minority conservative govt. in the next election. The dauphin will have to wait 2 - 3 years after 2015.


Really? Your posts would indicate otherwise, but thanks for actually including your opinion instead of just a link to some leftie website. As for the _dauphin_, I'm surprised he has as much support as he has.

Happy New Year Gordie.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Really? Your posts would indicate otherwise, but thanks for actually including your opinion instead of just a link to some leftie website. As for the _dauphin_, I'm surprised he has as much support as he has.
> 
> Happy New Year Gordie.


Well if the _dauphin_ (funny one skip) was as bad as you think he is, that doesn't say much for Harper then given recent polls.

I too predict a minority for Harper. That's enough of an arse thumping for me. Harper and co. clearly shouldn't have a majority.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Is 'a walk in the snow' in Stephen Harper's future? - Politics - CBC News
> 
> The combined effect of the Harper PMO-Senate scandal and robocall scandal should be enough to push him out. It's going to be great 2014!


Despite your optimism, too bad for you the election is in 2015. 

Kind of like the "regular season" in any sport. It doesn't mean that much when it comes to the playoffs and in politics the playoffs is when the writ is dropped.

The rest is just noise until then.

Time will tell.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Despite your optimism, too bad for you the election is in 2015.
> 
> Kind of like the "regular season" in any sport. It doesn't mean that much when it comes to the playoffs and in politics the playoffs is when the writ is dropped.
> 
> The rest is just noise until then.


reading here, one would think that the future had already been written in stone, with the Harper minority landing in 2015 and the clown prince elected in 2018.


----------



## groovetube

Easy guys. We're just having a little fun with predictions. 

Unless Trudeau really drops the ball, he'll give Harper a real challenge. 

Not a bad thing.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Easy guys. We're just having a little fun with predictions. *
> 
> Unless Trudeau really drops the ball, he'll give Harper a real challenge.
> 
> Not a bad thing.


I don't think anyone has become overly excited thus far gt.

I think we all know that it is speculation at this point. Except that some are more zealous in their trust/hope in predictions than others (especially this far out from the "playoffs"), mostly based on what they have read in the media(s), (which we all know are a bad predictor of future events/outcomes, despite their best efforts to try to predetermine them) that support their hopes and desires.

Sorry for the run on sentence.


----------



## groovetube

It is a bit far out yes. Early indicators say this ain't going to a be a cakewalk for Harper unless Trudeau majorly dumps a stink.

I don't think Harper is going to resign anytime soon, he'd have to have a really disasterous 2014 that makes 2013 look like a great year for that to happen.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Really? Your posts would indicate otherwise, but thanks for actually including your opinion instead of just a link to some leftie website. As for the _dauphin_, I'm surprised he has as much support as he has.
> 
> Happy New Year Gordie.


The same could be said about Mr. Harper. 

I should think these politicians speak only to their supporters. Much like the trend in the Excited States. This trend does not bode well for our Democratic Governance.


----------



## groovetube

the trend now, is to applaud the continued erosion of democracy, handing more and more power to private interests.

Apparently, not goose-stepping to this, is referred to as "socialism". (must be said with a hiss...  )



> We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.
> 
> Louis D. Brandeis


----------



## Macfury

That is a terrible quote by Brandels. If you value freedom, you will never see a government with enough power to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few. If you sell your freedom in the name of security, you will achieve the concentration of wealth.


----------



## groovetube

I guess you misunderstood the quote...


----------



## SINC

The author of the quote is dead wrong. We already have democracy in this country, and we have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. Apparently he wasn't aware of that when he spat that one out.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> That is a terrible quote by Brandels. If you value freedom, you will never see a government with enough power to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few. *If you sell your freedom in the name of security, you will achieve the concentration of wealth.*


I agree with your statement,



> If you value freedom, you will never see a government with enough power to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few.


I'm not sure I know what you mean by the statement,



> If you sell your freedom in the name of security, you will achieve the concentration of wealth.


What type of security is it that you are referring to? Security of the person? Security of the state? Security of community?... I'm just not sure how "security" applies to Brandeis' statement.

But he also said this:



> That the individual shall have full protection in person and in property is a principle as old as the common law; but it has been found necessary from time to time to define anew the exact nature and extent of such protection. Political, social, and economic changes entail the recognition of new rights, and the common law, in its eternal youth, grows to meet the demands of society.
> 
> The press is overstepping in every direction the obvious bounds of propriety and of decency. Gossip is no longer the resource of the idle and of the vicious, but has become a trade, which is pursued with industry as well as effrontery. To satisfy a prurient taste the details of sexual relations are spread broadcast in the columns of the daily papers....The intensity and complexity of life, attendant upon advancing civilization, have rendered necessary some retreat from the world, and man, under the refining influence of culture, has become more sensitive to publicity, so that solitude and privacy have become more essential to the individual; but modern enterprise and invention have, through invasions upon his privacy, subjected him to mental pain and distress, far greater than could be inflicted by mere bodily injury.


And this:



> We want a government that will represent the laboring man, the professional man, the businessman, and the man of leisure. We want a good government, not because it is good business but because it is dishonorable to submit to a bad government.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I guess you misunderstood the quote...


Guess you did. I don't suppose you have any context for that line?


----------



## groovetube

Funny, I don't see any mention of "government" in the quote. 

I see some knee-jerk reactions that miss the point completely.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> The author of the quote is dead wrong. We already have democracy in this country, and we have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. Apparently he wasn't aware of that when he spat that one out.


SINC, Brandeis is from the US and was an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court from June 1, 1916 – February 13, 1939. 

He was speaking to different times in the US during the era of the Rockefeller's, J.P. Morgan and Carnegie who were at the time attempting to create giant monopolies. The very stuff that the game Monopoly sprang from.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> SINC, Brandeis is from the US and was an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court from June 1, 1916 – February 13, 1939.
> 
> He was speaking to different times in the US during the era of the Rockefeller's, J.P. Morgan and Carnegie who were at the time attempting to create giant monopolies. The very stuff that the game Monopoly sprang from.


thank god they stop trying to create giant monopolies and infiltrate the government.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> SINC, Brandeis is from the US and was an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court from June 1, 1916 – February 13, 1939.
> 
> He was speaking to different times in the US during the era of the Rockefeller's, J.P. Morgan and Carnegie who were at the time attempting to create giant monopolies. The very stuff that the game Monopoly sprang from.


Exactly. Government now creates and supports monopolies and oligopolies that could not otherwise be formed, by creating high barriers to the entry of competitors or by granting special favours to those companies already established. 

Brandels believed in a rather heavy hand to ensure that the economy would play out "fairly." 

When I refer to giving up freedom in the name of security, I mean that any state big enough to to take over the welfare of its citizens is big enough to grant favours to large corporations, granting monopoly and oligopoly powers as it sees fit. I don't see corporations as having as great an influence without the support of government.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Government now creates and supports monopolies and oligopolies that could not otherwise be formed, by creating high barriers to the entry of competitors or by granting special favours to those companies already established.
> 
> Brandels believed in a rather heavy hand to ensure that the economy would play out "fairly."
> 
> When I refer to giving up freedom in the name of security, I mean that any state big enough to to take over the welfare of its citizens is big enough to grant favours to large corporations, granting monopoly and oligopoly powers as it sees fit. I don't see corporations as having as great an influence without the support of government.


wrong.

He fought against monopolies, not only that, _he fought for_ freedom of speech and right to privacy.

His quote does not, have the word 'government' in it, no matter how many times you try.

Do some research.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> wrong.
> 
> He fought against monopolies, not only that, freedom of speech and right to privacy.
> 
> His quote does not, have the word 'government' in it, no matter how many times you try.
> 
> Do some research.


gt, Justice Brandeis fought against monopolies, as you state, but he fought for the freedom of speech and the right to privacy, not against these important social issues. I think that this is what you meant to say, but putting the phrase "he fought against ...." makes all that follows as other things he fought against.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> gt, Justice Brandeis fought against monopolies, as you state, but he fought for the freedom of speech and the right to privacy, not against these important social issues. I think that this is what you meant to say, but putting the phrase "he fought against ...." makes all that follows as other things he fought against.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


oops. You're right. I mistyped. Thanks


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> wrong.
> 
> He fought against monopolies, not only that, freedom of speech and right to privacy.
> 
> His quote does not, have the word 'government' in it, no matter how many times you try.
> 
> Do some research.


Do you honestly think your little quotation exists in its own universe with no historical context? Unless you're willing to research the source of your quotations, I'd recommend silence on your part.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Do you honestly think your little quotation exists in its own universe with no historical context? Unless you're willing to research the source of your quotations, I'd recommend silence on your part.


Of course it doesn't, and that's important! Thanks for pointing that out!

Well so far, you've completely gotten this mixed up, so it seems my 'little research' has been a little more accurate than yours.

It seems he was after all the very things you said he wasn't.

So until you can get past asinine comments about me 'being silent' and offer some more on this person, I'll consider the matter closed!

Cheers.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> oops. You're right. I mistyped. Thanks


That is what I thought. Keep the Faith and fight the good fight. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Thank you for your contribution. I'm done with you on this subject.


----------



## groovetube

cheers.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Government now creates and supports monopolies and oligopolies that could not otherwise be formed, by creating high barriers to the entry of competitors or by granting special favours to those companies already established.
> 
> Brandels believed in a rather heavy hand to ensure that the economy would play out "fairly."
> 
> When I refer to giving up freedom in the name of security, I mean that any state big enough to to take over the welfare of its citizens is big enough to grant favours to large corporations, granting monopoly and oligopoly powers as it sees fit. * I don't see corporations as having as great an influence without the support of government*.


Ok I see what you are saying and agree. 

From my readings he believed that too much power concentrated in any one place, whether it be a corporation or a government. would inevitably lead to corruption and graft and on that point I would have to say history has shown that to be true.

Any unfettered power is not a good thing, there should be checks and balances in place (regulations). Just how extensive those checks and balances are is definitely up for debate however.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Ok I see what you are saying and agree.
> 
> From my readings he believed that too much power concentrated in any one place, whether it be a corporation or a government. would inevitably lead to corruption and graft and on that point I would have to say history has shown that to be true.
> 
> Any unfettered power is not a good thing, there should be checks and balances in place (regulations). Just how extensive those checks and balances are is definitely up for debate however.


that statement is completely false. Corporations, don't need government to wield power. Governments have merely gotten in their way, which is why governments have been completely taken over by them, the examples of this is overwhelming. THAT... THAT is what needs to be addressed.

The next step is convince people that government is bad, so we need to strip it down even more, to get rid of some of the annoyances to powerful interests.

Of course, there's also the other extreme, which is why I tend to not lean much and be pretty much a centrist in most issues.

Government is far from perfect, but it's all we have, so it's best to keep it from swinging too far to either extreme imo.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> that statement is completely false. Corporations, don't need government to wield power. Governments have merely gotten in their way, which is why governments have been completely taken over by them, the examples of this is overwhelming. THAT... THAT is what needs to be addressed.
> 
> The next step is convince people that government is bad, so we need to strip it down even more, to get rid of some of the annoyances to powerful interests.
> 
> Of course, there's also the other extreme, which is why I tend to not lean much and be pretty much a centrist in most issues.
> 
> Government is far from perfect, but it's all we have, so it's best to keep it from swinging too far to either extreme imo.


Government's most certainly do create monopolies. Canada Post is just but one example here in Canada. It *is* the laws/regulations of the land that allow them to exist or not.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Government's most certainly do create monopolies. Canada Post is just but one example here in Canada. It *is* the laws/regulations of the land that allow them to exist or not.


I didn't say they didn't.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I didn't say they didn't.


Then I'm not quite sure what your point was. As you were rebuking MF's statement that Government's allow for monopolies to exist or not.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Then I'm not quite sure what your point was. As you were rebuking MF's statement that Government's allow for monopolies to exist or not.


nooooo. I was addressing the statement you bolded.



> I don't see corporations as having as great an influence without the support of government.


Completely ridiculous notion.

Here's a youtube, and it was apparently banned. A little too dangerous I suppose 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g#t=32

One of the reasons why I believe the right, is actually more responsible for creating poverty and the need for social programs they claim to not support...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> nooooo. I was addressing the statement you bolded.
> 
> *Completely ridiculous notion.*
> 
> Here's a youtube, and it was apparently banned. A little too dangerous I suppose
> 
> One of the reasons why I believe the right, is actually more responsible for creating poverty and the need for social programs they claim to not support...


Not really. Government's create the environment in which corporation's operate. That is what Brandeis was all about.

So logically if monopolies exist they exist because government laws and regulations allow them to exist.

I think if you pause for a moment you will realize that MFs statement:



> I don't see corporations as having as great an influence without the support of government.


Is actually in keeping (in spirit) with your complaints about corporate tax cuts. There seems to some agreement in principle here if not in policy.

Groove you seem to be getting a little irritated here, perhaps by what is being said and perhaps by who is saying it.

I respectfully suggest you to try and forget who is saying what and just focus on the issues being discussed, it seems we could be heading down the unwanted path of making things personal. 

I respectfully suggest that MF may also be heading down that path, but I do believe he makes some valid points regarding what Brandeis said and the times to which his words were relevant.


----------



## groovetube

where am I irritated? My comments are directly on the topic. (ok irritated at macfury declaring I should be silent... lol)

I think you're still missing why I disagree with the statement. 



screature said:


> Not really. Government's create the environment in which corporation's operate. That is what Brandeis was all about.
> 
> So logically if monopolies exist they exist because government laws and regulations allow them to exist.


I don't think this concept is in dispute. 



screature said:


> I think if you pause for a moment you will realize that MFs statement:
> 
> 
> 
> Is actually in keeping (in spirit) with your complaints about corporate tax cuts. There seems to some agreement in principle here if not in policy.
> 
> Groove you seem to be getting a little irritated here, perhaps by what is being said and perhaps by who is saying it.
> 
> I respectfully suggest you to try and forget who is saying what and just focus on the issues being discussed, it seems we could be heading down the unwanted path of making things personal.
> 
> I respectfully suggest that MF may also be heading down that path, but I do believe he makes some valid points regarding what Brandeis said and the times to which his words were relevant.


I keep saying, that governments, are full of corporate insiders, and are heavily influenced by rich and powerful interests. THAT is the problem, not necessarily government!

That is sort of like saying, that robberies are a big problem in my neighbourhood, when robbers have a few on the inside as cops, and then saying we need less cops, and if we left the robbers alone, they'll be nice.

heh. I don't think I'm very far off on that one...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> where am I irritated? My comments are directly on the topic. (ok irritated at macfury declaring I should be silent... lol)
> 
> I think you're still missing why I disagree with the statement.
> 
> I don't think this concept is in dispute.
> 
> I keep saying, that governments, are full of corporate insiders, and are heavily influenced by rich and powerful interests. THAT is the problem, not necessarily government!
> 
> That is sort of like saying, that robberies are a big problem in my neighbourhood, when robbers have a few on the inside as cops, and then saying we need less cops, and if we left the robbers alone, they'll be nice.
> 
> heh. I don't think I'm very far off on that one...


But government *can* be the problem. Even your statement says as much because if government is infiltrated by corporate interests it is because they *allow* it. 

This is nothing new and is simply the "same as it ever was", but to suggest that corporations alone are the problem is to give a free pass to complicit governments. 

I don't know of anywhere in the free world where this problem doesn't exist. Well except it doesn't exist in totalitarian states of course, but I don't think many of us would see that as a desirable alternative (Except for perhaps JT.  )

I don't really think we are arguing in principal just in *perceived* principal coming at it from different perspectives.

As I said before:



screature said:


> ...
> From my readings he (Brandeis) believed that too much power concentrated in any one place, whether it be a corporation or a government. would inevitably lead to corruption and graft and on that point I would have to say history has shown that to be true.
> 
> Any unfettered power is not a good thing, there should be checks and balances in place (regulations). Just how extensive those checks and balances are is definitely up for debate however.


----------



## Macfury

Hanauer's little speech wasn't banned. It was left off the TED roster for being substandard and poorly researched,


----------



## groovetube

nice try


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> nooooo. I was addressing the statement you bolded.
> 
> Here's a youtube, and it was apparently banned. A little too dangerous I suppose ...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g#t=32


So if it was banned why could you find it and post it here so easily? I'm not quite sure I follow but the



> nooooo.


 you posted to me made it seem like you were getting a little irritated.

At any rate, an interesting video but he isn't talking about corporate taxation he is talking about increasing personal taxation for the extremely wealthy. Two whole different concepts.

The one thing I would say is that he doesn't refer to actual numbers in terms of targets and what they should be just broad generalizations. To me he comes across as a rich American looking to make points with working/middle class people... That makes me suspect of his motivations...

It sounds more like a promotional/motivational piece rather than a genuine statement of policy where he has any actual economic policy that he has or is referring to. 

To me he sounds more like a coach trying to "pump" up his team before a big game... lots of hyperbole with very little actual substance. He actually looks like that to me as well.


----------



## groovetube

There's been many who have spoke about both, personal and corporate taxation. 

But what this guy says about job creation, obviously he's talking about corporate, since that's the pack of lies being shovelled to us by governments run by rich interests. There has been absolutely not a shred of evidence to support this idea that lowering corporate or rich personal taxes creates more jobs. The very notion is ridiculous. Cutting corporate or high wealth taxes doesn't suddenly create consumer demand for more production of products and services.

It perhaps buys some more BMWs and lakefront properties for a few.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> There's been many who have spoke about both, personal and corporate taxation.
> 
> But what this guy says about job creation, obviously he's talking about corporate, since that's the pack of lies being shovelled to us by governments run by rich interests. There has been absolutely not a shred of evidence to support this idea that lowering corporate or rich personal taxes creates more jobs. The very notion is ridiculous. Cutting corporate taxes doesn't suddenly create consumer demand for more production of products and services.


Again, who said that lowering corporate tax rates creates a specific number of jobs and then followed through on it? Shouldn't be too hard for you to find the promise and then measure it against the actual result of the policy. Not just pundits, please--actual government policy.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Again, who said that lowering corporate tax rates creates a specific number of jobs and then followed through on it? Shouldn't be too hard for you to find the promise and then measure it against the actual result of the policy. Not just pundits, please--actual government policy.


you keep inserting "a certain number of jobs". No one said anything about a "certain number of jobs".


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you keep inserting "a certain number of jobs". No one said anything about a "certain number of jobs".


If no number of jobs was specified, what's your argument? Specifically, which corporate tax cut are you talking about, and how do you determine that this specific policy failed?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If no number of jobs was specified, what's your argument? Specifically, which corporate tax cut are you talking about, and how do you determine that this specific policy failed?


exactly. Nothing was specified, no targets, just a blanket "the reductions are crucial for creating jobs".

There's no evidence that this is even true.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you keep inserting "a certain number of jobs". No one said anything about a "certain number of jobs".





groovetube said:


> exactly. Nothing was specified, no targets, just a blanket "the reductions are crucial for creating jobs".
> 
> There's no evidence that this is even true.


So you're saying that this particular reduction in corporate tax rates of 16.5 per cent to 15 per cent will result in the creation of zero jobs? Over what period of time?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> So you're saying that this particular reduction in corporate tax rates of 16.5 per cent to 15 per cent will result in the creation of zero jobs? Over what period of time?



No, listen carefully macfury. I don't see any evidence that the claims that these reductions are crucial to job creation are true.


----------



## screature

Personally the way I see it, the more corporations that set up business in Canada the better, regardless of the number of jobs involved.

That means every one of them is paying at least 15% tax that goes directly into general revenue... the money that pays for transfers payments to the provinces and ergo health care, social programs and infrastructure improvement etc.

It isn't like Canada is a small country and we can't accommodate them all.

Perhaps there could be a better "sweet spot" of corporate taxation (but the more you tax the less desirable you are for investment), but what it may be I don't know as I am not an expert on such matters. 

But generally speaking I would think that one would want as many big companies as possible to set up shop in Canada so that they are paying their taxes here rather than somewhere else.

To me this is not rocket science but simple mathematics.

This is not in any way relevant to what Brandeis was talking about in his time and place in history. It is a whole different kettle of fish now.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Personally the way I see it, the more corporations that set up business in Canada the better, regardless of the number of jobs involved.
> 
> That means every one of them is paying at least 15% tax that goes directly into general revenue... the money that pays for transfers payments to the provinces and ergo health care, social programs and infrastructure improvement etc.
> 
> It isn't like Canada is a small country and we can't accommodate them all.
> 
> Perhaps there could be a better "sweet spot" of corporate taxation (but the more you tax the less desirable you are for investment), but what it may be I don't know as I am not an expert on such matters.
> 
> But generally speaking I would think that one would want as many big companies as possible to set up shop in Canada so that they are paying their taxes here rather than somewhere else.
> 
> To me this is not rocket science but simple mathematics.
> 
> This is not in any way relevant to what Brandeis was talking about in his time and place in history. It is a whole different kettle of fish now.


Sure it's part of it. Corporations have a too favourable tax rate, and the rest of us well, we have to wait until they cut the crap out of everything (we won't know how much until later I expect...) before we get our turn!

But your explanation is pretty much what the conservatives are telling us.

Have we gotten a surge in big corporations coming to Canada and many new jobs as a direct result of this cut?

It seems like some grand claims, huge tax policy changes that represents many many billions in lost revenue, but almost zero evidence any of this worked.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> t seems like some grand claims, huge tax policy changes that represents many many billions in lost revenue, but almost zero evidence any of this worked.


Your claim is that it DID NOT WORK. So where is your evidence?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Your claim is that it DID NOT WORK. So where is your evidence?


ha ha ha ha. classic.

I claimed no such thing. So what's your position, does it work, or doesn't it?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha ha. classic.
> 
> I claimed no such thing. So what's your position, does it work, or doesn't it?


I have no strong opinion on the policy. You were the one who said that the policy had failed. So shoot...


----------



## groovetube

And you said it was a rousing success! No evidence needed! beejacon


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> And you said it was a rousing success! No evidence needed! beejacon


 I never said it was a rousing success at creating jobs. I was challenging your assertion that it was a failure at creating jobs. If you're backing down from that position now, do it quickly, OK?


----------



## groovetube

Ah not so fast. I asked for evidence that it creates jobs.

So far, no one has shown any. You've spent a page or so defending harpers assertion that it's crucial to job creation, but without anything to back it up!

So far all I saw a while back was some feeble report saying some jobs were created, but that could have been because of Harpers new haircut for all we know!

I can't prove a negative, so balls in anyone's court for some real evidence if you can't provide any. Don't feel bad!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Ah not so fast. I asked for evidence that it creates jobs.


This is typical of your posting style. You told us that corporate tax cuts DID NOT create jobs, so the onus is on you to prove your supposition. Don't expect others to do your work for you.


----------



## groovetube

No, I said there's no evidence to suggest this is true, and I found the idea ridiculous.

But I'm certainly open to any evidence! But given the utter dancing around actually providing any, I'm beginning to think its true, there's no evidence!

So what, did the cuts make the employment rate drop at a much faster rate? Anything? Is there anything you can show your support for harpers assertion that these cuts are crucial to job creation is based in fact?

Anything???


----------



## Macfury

The backtracking was predictable. You've argued yourself into a new position:"You don't know if the tax cuts succeeded in creating jobs." Don't waste my time like this again.


----------



## groovetube

oh macfury, no need to get snippy, it'll be ok  That's what you _wanted_ my position to be. 

well no evidence presented. Like before. If anyone wants to actually present some evidence that Harper's contention that corp tax cuts are crucial to job creation, by all means. Macfury failed.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*2014 - more rough riding for Harper govt*

As Hébert points out you can lump the northern gateway pipeline into the mix of reasons the Canadian public is souring on the Harper majority.

Tories would be wise to pass on Northern Gateway: HÃ©bert | Toronto Star


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> As Hébert points out you can lump the northern gateway pipeline into the mix of reasons the Canadian public is souring on the Harper majority.
> 
> Tories would be wise to pass on Northern Gateway: HÃ©bert | Toronto Star


Yeah rght, ship it all by train, it's so much safer.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Yeah rght, ship it all by train, it's so much safer.


Correct you are - that'll compound the problem. That pipeline ain't gonna happen.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yeah rght, ship it all by train, it's so much safer.


Hebert's column makes no sense. She thinks the Conservatives shouldn't approve the pipeline because she's worried it will make Harper unpopular? She's been such a strong supporter of the Conservatives for so long, they'd be fools not to listen,


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Canada Post is an indpendent Crown Corporation. What does this have to do with the party in power?


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Canada Post is an indpendent Crown Corporation. What does this have to do with the party in power?


Nothing, but I wouldn't expect any less from CM…cue groovetube.


----------



## groovetube

I love how when the conservatives are in power, nothing is their fault.

It's the staffers fault. It's a separate crown corp's fault. It's a rogue intern's fault. 

Rinse, and repeat. 

As far as the canada post debacle goes, I don't think their demise is the governments fault. But I don't think they have zero to do with decisions being made currently.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> IAs far as the canada post debacle goes, I don't think their demise is the governments fault. But I don't think they have zero to do with decisions being made currently.


Thank goodness not everyone is a low-information voter.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I love how when the conservatives are in power, nothing is their fault.
> 
> .


Right on cue…

I love how when the Consevatives *are* in power, everything_ IS_ their fault aqnd specifically Harper.


----------



## groovetube

Well it depends on what your bias is Karl!

You know that!


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> I love how when the Consevatives *are* in power, everything_ IS_ their fault aqnd specifically Harper.


What I find interesting is that most Conservatives would criticize only Canada Post for its own decisions, regardless of who is in power. Citizens should have to answer a simple question about something like this at the polling booth for their vote to count.


----------



## groovetube

Ha ha yeah conservatives aren't known for blaming the liberals for anything :lmao:


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> What I find interesting is that most Conservatives would criticize only Canada Post for its own decisions, regardless of who is in power. Citizens should have to answer a simple question about something like this at the polling booth for their vote to count.


Ooooh a skill testing question, I like the idea.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


Correction, Canada Post policy, they are masters of their own domain. By legislation they must be self sustaining and right now they are bleeding money.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Ooooh a skill testing question, I like the idea.


looks like buddy shovelling have a beverage on some steps after work!


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Ooooh a skill testing question, I like the idea.


My skill testing question:

Do you have personal experience with making a living off selling a vote(s)?  How does that work?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Chairman of the Bored*

.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> My skill testing question:
> 
> Do you have personal experience with making a living off selling a vote(s)?  How does that work?


No answer for you, your payment bounced.


----------



## screature

Ooops...

Angus campaign broke election rules: commissioner



> New Democratic Party MP (and Ethics Critic, my addition) Charlie Angus’s campaign broke election rules by failing to close down the bank account it used in the 2008 election, Canada’s Commissioner of Elections has ruled.
> 
> In a notice published in this week’s Canada Gazette, Yves Côté said his office had reached a compliance agreement with Helen Gerteis after she re-used the bank account for the 2011 election in the riding of Timmins-James Bay.
> 
> Under Canada’s election rules, a candidate must open a separate bank account for each election and then close the account after the election is over and the paperwork has been completed.
> 
> In the notice, Côté said Gerteis “acknowledged that the bank account opened for the candidate’s electoral campaign for the 2008 general election was not closed, that the same bank account remained open and was used for the 2011 general election and that a new, separate bank account was therefore not opened for the 2011 general election...”


And his final words on the matter are priceless...



> “I’ll take what I did over what Peter Penashue did any day of the week.”


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Ooops...
> 
> Angus campaign broke election rules: commissioner


This is what counts as a "scandal" to those on the Right? Slim pickings, I guess. A rule was broken, fine. What were the repercussions? Is wrongdoing / fraud / malfeasance alleged? 

An administrative boo-boo gets you guys all up in arms, but the real wrongdoings covered over the many pages of this thread of the Conservatives just get brushed aside?

*You guys are hilarious.*


----------



## groovetube

Seriously? How can anyone think this rule break was anything like the overspending/hiding/fudging money?

Or is there something I'm missing?


----------



## Macfury

The Greek Chorus chimed in out of nowhere!


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> This is what counts as a "scandal" to those on the Right? Slim pickings, I guess. A rule was broken, fine. What were the repercussions? Is wrongdoing / fraud / malfeasance alleged?
> 
> An administrative boo-boo gets you guys all up in arms, but the real wrongdoings covered over the many pages of this thread of the Conservatives just get brushed aside?
> 
> *You guys are hilarious.*





groovetube said:


> Seriously? How can anyone think this rule break was anything like the overspending/hiding/fudging money?
> 
> Or is there something I'm missing?


Who's all up in arms? Seems you retort indicates that you are the one being more so.

What you are both missing is that when it is the NDP, an administrative error is an *acceptable excuse* when the same words and facts are the case on the other side it is a scandal.

This Angus situation certainly isn't a scandal persay but when he feels the need to do anything other than just man up and say, "yep mistakes were made", especially as his parties Ethics Critic, he feels the need to take a needless shot at a now ex Conservative MP it shows just how small and petty a man he really is.

Oh and by the way he was also cited with interference by the Riding Redistribution Commission, for which he was completely unapologetic. Ethics only apply when *he* isn't the one breaking the rules.


----------



## groovetube

No, if he was fudging and hiding donation money or something similar, then I'd say yeah, he's being a hypocrite.

But considering what the 'off ensue' was, I'm calling this one out.

I bet he's comparing it because he knows damn well conservatives everywhere will try to compare it to the skulldudgery seen in say dean del maestro.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Who's all up in arms? Seems you retort indicates that you are the one being more so.


*The screature doth protest too much, methinks.*


----------



## CubaMark

_Let's talk about a real crime, then, shall we? Sadly, one for which legal prosecution is not possible..._

*How the Harper Government Committed a Knowledge Massacre*

_Scientists are calling it "libricide." Seven of the nine world-famous Department of Fisheries and Oceans [DFO] libraries were closed by autumn 2013, *ostensibly to digitize* the materials and reduce costs. But sources told the independent Tyee in December that *a fraction of the 600,000-volume collection had been digitized*. And, a secret federal document notes that a paltry $443,000 a year will be saved. The massacre was done quickly, with *no record keeping and no attempt to preserve* the material in universities. Scientists said *precious collections were* consigned to dumpsters, were * burned or went to landfills*.

Probably the most famous facility to get the axe is the library of the venerable St. Andrews Biological Station in St. Andrews, New Brunswick, which environmental scientist Rachel Carson used extensively to research her seminal book on toxins, *Silent Spring*. The government just spent millions modernizing the facility.

Also closed were the Freshwater Institute library in Winnipeg and the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Centre in St. John's, Newfoundland, both world-class collections. Hundreds of years of carefully compiled research into aquatic systems, fish stocks and fisheries from the 1800s and early 1900s went into the bin or up in smoke.

*Irreplaceable documents like the 50 volumes produced by the H.M.S. Challenger expedition of the late 1800s that discovered thousands of new sea creatures, are now moldering in landfills.*_​
(More on this story at HuffPo)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *The screature doth protest too much, methinks.*


Don't know why you would say that as all I said was "Ooops" and "And his final words on the matter are priceless..."

That constitutes "being all up in arms" in your books?

Sensitive much?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Let's talk about a real crime, then, shall we? Sadly, one for which legal prosecution is not possible...*
> 
> *How the Harper Government Committed a Knowledge Massacre*
> 
> _Scientists are calling it "libricide." Seven of the nine world-famous Department of Fisheries and Oceans [DFO] libraries were closed by autumn 2013, *ostensibly to digitize* the materials and reduce costs. But sources told the independent Tyee in December that *a fraction of the 600,000-volume collection had been digitized*. And, a secret federal document notes that a paltry $443,000 a year will be saved. The massacre was done quickly, with *no record keeping and no attempt to preserve* the material in universities. Scientists said *precious collections were* consigned to dumpsters, were * burned or went to landfills*.
> 
> Probably the most famous facility to get the axe is the library of the venerable St. Andrews Biological Station in St. Andrews, New Brunswick, which environmental scientist Rachel Carson used extensively to research her seminal book on toxins, *Silent Spring*. The government just spent millions modernizing the facility.
> 
> Also closed were the Freshwater Institute library in Winnipeg and the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Centre in St. John's, Newfoundland, both world-class collections. Hundreds of years of carefully compiled research into aquatic systems, fish stocks and fisheries from the 1800s and early 1900s went into the bin or up in smoke.
> 
> *Irreplaceable documents like the 50 volumes produced by the H.M.S. Challenger expedition of the late 1800s that discovered thousands of new sea creatures, are now moldering in landfills.*_​
> (More on this story at HuffPo)


Uhh then it is not a crime... the Tyee and the Huff? Yeah now there are two non-partisan agenda free reputable sources.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Don't know why you would say that as all I said was "Ooops" and "And his final words on the matter are priceless..."
> 
> That constitutes "being all up in arms" in your books?
> 
> Sensitive much?


No, I am referring to your post #11469.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> No, I am referring to your post #11469.


And nothing I said there was untrue.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Uhh then it is not a crime... the Tyee and the Huff? Yeah now there are two non-partisan agenda free reputable sources.


Good Lord. Could you attempt to stay on topic? Rather than attack the source (of which these are not the only ones), how about actually discussing the matter at hand.

What is your opinion of the Federal Government destroying historical data and irreplaceable documents, while claiming they were preserving the same *and* saving money in the process (which turns out to be a lie)?

If you're going to bitch about other people talking around the topic, don't be a hypocrite.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Good Lord. Could you attempt to stay on topic? Rather than attack the source (of which these are not the only ones), how about actually discussing the matter at hand.
> 
> What is your opinion of the Federal Government destroying historical data and irreplaceable documents, while claiming they were preserving the same *and* saving money in the process (which turns out to be a lie)?
> 
> If you're going to bitch about other people talking around the topic, don't be a hypocrite.


Having a bad day I guess CM? I didn't "bitch about other people talking around the topic" don't know where you are getting that from. You were the one to change the channel.

You said let's talk about a real crime, no crime was committed despite your hyperbole.

Hypocrite? Where?


----------



## CubaMark

So that's the tack you're going to take, eh?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

You accused me of being a hypocrite. I asked for you to provide evidence... none so far.

And I didn't "bitch about other people talking around the topic" I commented on a politician caught breaking rules who is their parties Ethics critic taking a cheap shot at an ex MP that was revealing of his character. Nowhere did I say anything about "people talking around the topic".

Me thinks CM doth protest to much, to use your confrontational words.

Not to mention you referred to me as "the screature" rather than my actual moniker "screature", your attempt at being demeaning was clear.

Have a nice day CM, hopefully it improves for you.


----------



## kps

CubaMark said:


> So that's the tack you're going to take, eh?


\/\/\/


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> You accused me of being a hypocrite. I asked for you to provide evidence... none so far.


I'm not trying to be confrontational - you are making it happen. There are several dozen (hundred?) posts, and even an thread entirely dedicated to your ongoing feud with GrooveTube for what you have labelled as (paraphrasing) lying, misleading, evasion, etc. 

I have posted an article relevant to the topic here, about the Conservative government destroying scientific research. Instead of taking up the matter, you have done exactly what you have accused others of doing - talking around / off topic. That's hypocrisy. Really surprised that I need to spell it out for you.

This is not about the Angus / Elections Canada issue, my apologies, I thought that was obvious.



screature said:


> Not to mention you referred to me as "the screature" rather than my actual moniker "screature", your attempt at being demeaning was clear.


Not at all. You have taken offense where none was intended. The original quote from Hamlet is *"The lady doth...."*. I simply substituted a moniker for a noun - sloppy grammar, perhaps, but not intended as a slag, I assure you.



screature said:


> Have a nice day CM, hopefully it improves for you.


It has! We finally have gas, which means we have hot water, which means a nice hot shower, from which I've just emerged. Feeling pretty darn good  Now we're off to the in-laws and a last bit of familial camaraderie before the work week begins (so you're rid of me until Monday) 

Have a happy...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Uhh then it is not a crime... the Tyee and the Huff? Yeah now there are two non-partisan agenda free reputable sources.


*SOURCES* told them!


----------



## groovetube

It's only *partisan* if it's something unflattering to the conservatives.

Weeee!


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *I'm not trying to be confrontational - you are making it happen. **There are several dozen (hundred?) posts, and even an thread entirely dedicated to your ongoing feud with GrooveTube for what you have labelled as (paraphrasing) lying, misleading, evasion, etc. *
> *
> I have posted an article relevant to the topic here, about the Conservative government destroying scientific research. Instead of taking up the matter, you have done exactly what you have accused others of doing - talking around / off topic. That's hypocrisy. Really surprised that I need to spell it out for you.*
> 
> This is not about the Angus / Elections Canada issue, my apologies, I thought that was obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. You have taken offense where none was intended. The original quote from Hamlet is *"The lady doth...."*. I simply substituted a moniker for a noun - sloppy grammar, perhaps, but not intended as a slag, I assure you.
> 
> 
> 
> It has! We finally have gas, which means we have hot water, which means a nice hot shower, from which I've just emerged. Feeling pretty darn good  Now we're off to the in-laws and a last bit of familial camaraderie before the work week begins (so you're rid of me until Monday)
> 
> Have a happy...


Hogwash. You were clearly being confrontational by referring to me as "the screature" and being a hypocrite and you guys are hilarious. Don't be a hypocrite now. It is all there in black and white.

Sorry CM you are completely in error, I think you are thinking of someone else.

Of late gt and I have been trying to make amends, at least in terms of trying to make decorum better. If that is not something that you see as productive and want to dredge up a past that is irrelevant at this point in time that is your prerogative... but absolutely everything contained within that statement is in error with regards to the last several months.

It wasn't relevant at all you completely changed the channel based on the hyperbole:



> Let's talk about a real crime, then, shall we?


That you knew to be untrue but said it anyway. I pointed out that fact. That is not talking around anything. It is a statement of fact.

You used it as a spring board to deflect from Angus that was your doing not mine.

So get off your high horse. 

It seems that some of those on the left cannot accept one iota of criticism without "getting all up in arms" to use your phrase.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Peace out.


----------



## groovetube

I truly think CM just substituted your user name into the saying, which starts with "The..." 

Honestly, while Angus shouldn't have broken the rule, what it actually came down to, isn't anywhere near the reports of misdeeds in in and out schemes, fudging campaign numbers etc. that we're hearing. That's my honest opinion. It isn't because he's a 'leftie', it just seems like a pretty minor thing. Unless of course, it was done with more sinister aims, like hiding funds or something like that. That's why I asked if I was missing something.

Yes we've patched things up, and I appreciate it. It is pretty easy to misinterpret stuff on a forum, I've always thought forum communication is one of the worst forms of communication, even though I engage in it daily, and make all the same mistakes others do myself.

Re: the article CM posted, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest regarding the Harper government. They have consistently been dismantling a lot of research abilities for the environment and many things meant to keep things more livable for the citizens of this country, in favour of removing pesky environmental safeguards for companies to make more and more money. I think this is a serious issue.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Uhh then it is not a crime... the Tyee and the Huff? Yeah now there are two non-partisan agenda free reputable sources.


By the way, the closure of these libraries was announced last April and some of the holdings were listed in some legitimate newspapers. There is no indication that the log of that ship, for example, was thrown away. Just a slow news day for the _Tyee_ in which they relisted these items and declared them lost.


----------



## groovetube

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/po...g-lobbying-enbridge-northern-gateway-pipeline

The pipeline government of canada!


----------



## Macfury

What is your opinion on the link you posted groovetube? There's little point in making a zero-information post.


----------



## groovetube

I think my statement says it all.

What's yours?


----------



## Macfury

Sorry. This looks like another of the posts in which you fail to demonstrate any knowledge of the subject. I won't be drawn into another discussion in which you expect others to create an opinion for you.


----------



## groovetube

How the Harper Government Committed a Knowledge Massacre | Capt. Trevor Greene

For those who are more concerned about the source.

A rather disturbing optic, conservatives burning large quantities of books.

Oh noes! Teh learns!!!


----------



## Macfury

The OP already provided that link.

"Oh noes! Da kareless!"


----------



## groovetube

Sorry I thought it was a different link. Don't get your panties in a bunch now.

I find it amusing that no conservative even wants to acknowledge this! I wouldn't want to either I guess


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> I find it amusing that no conservative even wants to acknowledge this! I wouldn't want to either I guess


agreed. it's really deplorable. we need to know why the government would do such a thing. I hope more media outlets jump on the story and get to the bottom of why this happened.


----------



## Macfury

Once it was established that the article made unfounded claims about what was being thrown out, people lost interest. I don't have the same faith in the _Tyee_'s diligence that you do.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> *Once it was established* that the article made unfounded claims about what was being thrown out, people lost interest. I don't have the same faith in the _Tyee_'s diligence that you do.


By whom was it established?


----------



## groovetube

*Sources!*


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Once it was established that the article made unfounded claims about what was being thrown out, people lost interest. I don't have the same faith in the _Tyee_'s diligence that you do.


i'll echo what mrjimmy has asked. do you have a link?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> By whom was it established?


By comparison with this article from April:

Closure of fisheries’ libraries called a ‘disaster’ for science | canada.com

The lazy asses just used the same list of material from this article and declared it had been all thrown out with no new evidence to back up that claim.


----------



## i-rui

the tyee is quoting scientists who understandably do not want to be named. surely this deserves more investigation and clarification from the government on exactly what has happened.


----------



## groovetube

a 9 month old article always has the most recent info.


----------



## kps

Nice to see you all bought into the garbage spewed in the article written by what Lenin would call a "useful idiot"

Knowledge massacre? Libricide? An assault on civil society? Rise of fascism? 

Pathetic if you guys are buying into that.

Maybe you raiders should look in HANGER 51 for the missing documents:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Nice to see you all bought into the garbage spewed in the article written by what Lenin would call a "useful idiot"
> 
> Knowledge massacre? Libricide? An assault on civil society? Rise of fascism?
> 
> Pathetic if you guys are buying into that.
> 
> Maybe you raiders should look in HANGER 51 for the missing documents:lmao:


nice justification kps, but if they are burning these collections and these resources are lost, it is what it is, by whatever name anyone gives it.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Once it was established that the article made unfounded claims about what was being thrown out, people lost interest. I don't have the same faith in the _Tyee_'s diligence that you do.


Not to mention the Tyee and the Huff did insignificant due diligence at all by contacting DFO, except for this little tidbit which is off no value at all, "An agency (my addition what "Agency"? DFO is not an agency it is a full blown Ministry not an agency) "spokesperson" (my emphasis) did not answer a series of questions posed by The Tyee. Instead David Walters referred The Tyee to a "government propaganda site". What web site? what does it say there? No mention.

Cripes I could be contacted on any number of issues that I have no first hand information on and all I could do is refer someone to a website, except that in this case they refer to it as a "propaganda website" (no agenda or political bias there at all). 

Any *real* journalist worth their salt would have been dogged in getting the Ministry/Minister's office side of the story for either confirmation or rejection of the claims being made. They simply, as always, publish a one sided story without getting any real input from the department itself. 

As per usual it comes down to "unnamed sources" such is the way of the Huff and the Tyee. Full of bluster without any confirmed/validated facts or for the reasons behind such action by the government if at all true.

So no this "story" holds no particular water with me unless there is an actual real journalistic investigation and not merely reproducing the hearsay of a few people with chips on their shoulder.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the tyee is quoting scientists who understandably do not want to be named. surely this *deserves more investigation and clarification from the government on exactly what has happened.*


Agreed but they didn't do that now did they before publishing their piece?


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Nice to see you all bought into the garbage spewed in the article written by what Lenin would call a "useful idiot"
> 
> Knowledge massacre? Libricide? An assault on civil society? Rise of fascism?
> 
> Pathetic if you guys are buying into that.
> 
> Maybe you raiders should look in HANGER 51 for the missing documents:lmao:


I find your confidence that the current Government will 'do the right thing' peculiar. Even the Post Media article raises disturbing questions regarding the closures.



> Even worse, some of the material could be lost, said Hubbard, who has worked with the collection in St. Andrews that contains reports on the local fisheries and marine environment that go back decades.
> 
> “I am really worried that they won’t bother to move it all because there is just too much of it and so they will just dump it,” said Hubbard.
> 
> While Carkner said “all” the materials in the libraries will remain available, insiders say a lot material is not being kept.
> 
> “We are weeding,” one DFO librarian, who asked not to be identified, told Postmedia News.
> 
> Scientific journals available over the Internet are being sent off for recycling. And many books are headed for “removal or retirement” because they are considered obsolete or surplus.


Is it a 'My team do or die' thing or do you feel this is all some kind of left wing conspiracy?


----------



## groovetube

well given just how forthcoming this government is when asked questions as we all know, it's hardly surprising journalists use "unnamed sources".

In fact, this is nothing new really, but a nice side diversion into what could be a real embarrassment.

Did you really expect them to openly admit they're burning resources? :lmao:


----------



## Rps

There are some truths and then there are some truths. What is it Colbert calls it truthiness in government...... Some truths are merely statements that are not lies....they are just not the whole truth. Some truths are spoken as lies but are the truth. And some truths we really should not know. Governments have always balanced these truths to meet their political objectives. Often stated as not saying is in the best interests......but in this day and age of open publishing of information I wonder if there is any truth at all.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well given just how forthcoming this government is when asked questions as we all know, it's hardly surprising journalists use "unnamed sources".
> 
> In fact, this is nothing new really, but a nice side diversion into what could be a real embarrassment.
> 
> *Did you really expect them to openly admit they're burning resources? *:lmao:


If it is the truth in this day and age it will be known. If it is so then the question is why and they *should* be expected to answer that question.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> There are some truths and then there are some truths. What is it Colbert calls it truthiness in government...... Some truths are merely statements that are not lies....they are just not the whole truth. Some truths are spoken as lies but are the truth. And some truths we really should not know. Governments have always balanced these truths to meet their political objectives. Often stated as not saying is in the best interests......but in this day and age of open publishing of information I wonder if there is any truth at all.


I don't disagree with what you say Rps.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> If it is the truth in this day and age it will be known. If it is so then the question is why and they *should* be expected to answer that question.


I don't disagree screature. But the part on 'they should be expected to answer', well I have good reason to be rather skeptical on them following through on this one.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I don't disagree screature. But the part on 'they should be expected to answer', well I have good reason to be rather skeptical on them following through on this one.


Pressed hard enough they will have to or it will come out anyway. It is all up to them how it comes out.


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> I find your confidence that the current Government will 'do the right thing' peculiar. Even the Post Media article raises disturbing questions regarding the closures.
> 
> Is it a 'My team do or die' thing or do you feel this is all some kind of left wing conspiracy?


I lost any confidence in the mainstream media long ago. None of us currently know the extent of this, but that doesn't stop the anti government advocates from spewing such filthy terms against one of the best, if not the best, country in the world ---over what, questionable reports whose actual value is unknown?


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> I lost any confidence in the mainstream media long ago. None of us currently know the extent of this, but that doesn't stop the anti government advocates from spewing such filthy terms against one of the best, if not the best, country in the world ---over what, questionable reports whose actual value is unknown?


That must be problematic for you. Without the mainstream media (or otherwise), none of us knows the extent of much. It is incumbent on us to cross reference as much as possible in order to glean value and hopefully, 'the truth'.

Not sure if anyone is spewing filth or attacking Canada. It seems to me, that despite political stripe, most here love this country of ours. We are simply engaging in a debate as to the effectiveness and motivation of the current government.


----------



## groovetube

Complete mistrust of mainstream media is a conservative hallmark.

Look at the Fords. Even the Toronto Sun is part of the "conspiracy". Damn media, digging up embarrassing nuggets.


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> That must be problematic for you. Without the mainstream media (or otherwise), none of us knows the extent of much. It is incumbent on us to cross reference as much as possible in order to gleam value and hopefully, 'the truth'.
> 
> Not sure if anyone is spewing filth or is attacking Canada. It seems to me, that despite political stripe, most here love this country of ours. We are simply engaging in a debate as to the effectiveness and motivation of the current government.


Come on MrJ , if someone loves this country why would they attack it with terms like "knowledge massacre", libricide, rise of fascism, etc. The author is a vet--which is even more confounding. All media ( left-right-or centre ) has a bias that's all I meant by that.


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Come on MrJ , if someone loves this country why would they attack it with terms like "knowledge massacre", libricide, rise of fascism, etc. The author is a vet--which is even more confounding. All media ( left-right-or centre ) has a bias that's all I meant by that.


My love of Canada has nothing to do with the actions or existence of the current government. It is based on a set of values nurtured throughout numerous governments and their policies. It is about how we have defined ourselves in the past at home and on the world stage. 

As far as private citizens and the media being critical of the actions of the current government? It is hardly treasonous. It is one component of what makes Canada great in my opinion.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Complete mistrust of mainstream media is a conservative hallmark.*
> 
> Look at the Fords. Even the Toronto Sun is part of the "conspiracy". Damn media, digging up embarrassing nuggets.


And it should be a hallmark of Canadians of all stripes. 

They all have their biases and to accept wholesale what is written by any one media conglomerate or another as the truth is a fools game IMO.

The problem these days is that there is little scrutiny of the media and their biases and connections. 

The "media" in this day and age are in effect just other political parties looking out for their own vested interests and to me that is at the very least sad and on the extreme is pure unbridled corruption, graft and unbridled concentration of power without any oversight.

They can say whatever they want to say, except for the odd "addendum/update" which no one reads.

Once the "media" says it, it is out there as an indictment of guilt and then the "offending" party has to prove themselves to be innocent. 

It is exactly the *opposite* of how our judicial system is supposed to work.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> And it should be a hallmark of Canadians of all stripes.
> 
> They all have their biases and to accept wholesale what is written by any one media conglomerate or another as the truth is a fools game IMO.
> 
> The problem these days is that there is little scrutiny of the media and their biases and connections.
> 
> The "media" in this day and age are in effect just other political parties looking out for their own vested interests and to me that is at the very least sad and on the extreme is pure unbridled corruption, graft and unbridled concentration of power without any oversight.
> 
> They can say whatever they want to say, except for the odd "addendum/update" which no one reads.
> 
> Once the "media" says it, it is out there as an indictment of guilt and then the "offending" party has to prove themselves to be innocent.
> 
> It is exactly the *opposite* of how our judicial system is supposed to work.


What I meant, is very different than what I'd consider a healthy view that one shouldn't believe everything what one reads.

Watching the ultra conservative fords here and how they've blamed every one of their misdeeds on the conspiracy theorists in media, and seeing how Harper has limited media since forming government, that's completely different.

It seems to me, that when a media outlet breaks a story on this government, the immediate response is, it's a media bias.

Recall the very beginning of the senate scandal, and what we're finding out later. Regardless of whether Harper is found to have known or not down the road, it's been far more than a simple eye opener than it first appeared...

So much for media conspiracy.

When the media was all over adscam, I suppose that, was good journalism!


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> And it should be a hallmark of Canadians of all stripes.


I think 'complete mistrust' is taking it a little far. Healthy skepticism and a critical faculty is certainly required. I've been a believer for years that media literacy should be taught at the grade school level.



screature said:


> They all have their biases and to accept wholesale what is written by any one media conglomerate or another as the truth is a fools game IMO.


Which is why I suggested to kps that it is incumbent on us to cross reference in order to glean some semblance of 'the truth'.



screature said:


> The problem these days is that there is little scrutiny of the media and their biases and connections.


Who do you suggest 'watches the watchers'? What stops them from being as corrupt and bias ridden as you purport the media to be?



screature said:


> The "media" in this day and age are in effect just other political parties looking out for their own vested interests and to me that is at the very least sad and on the extreme is pure unbridled corruption, graft and unbridled concentration of power without any oversight.


In this day and age? I say this has always existed. It is simply human nature.



screature said:


> They can say whatever they want to say, except for the odd "addendum/update" which no one reads.
> 
> Once the "media" says it, it is out there as an indictment of guilt and then the "offending" party has to prove themselves to be innocent.


Often the media are simply parroting the 'big lie' being spewed by all and sundry. I've seen The Toronto Star quote Ford in a headline as saying he is the 'Best Toronto Mayor Ever' amongst other colossal untruths. Some will simply see the headline and believe it. This certainly doesn't fit well with their political agenda.



screature said:


> It is exactly the *opposite* of how our judicial system is supposed to work.


Funny that the most recent high profile libel suit was involving a newspaper reporter threatening to sue a politician. Go figure.


----------



## Macfury

Back to the original articles. Unless I know what material is being consolidated, what material is being digitized and what material is being thrown out, the articles are all pretty cheap coin. How much of the material is unique and irreplaceable? Should all written material be preserved for all time? How many people were using the libraries in question? If a new library was built and is now being closed, perhaps the appropriate question is to ask why it was built in the first place, rather than why it is not being kept open.

"Love of Canada" is also a fairly empty phrase. I love a Canada that takes a hard look at spending priorities. Big deal.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> "Love of Canada" is also a fairly empty phrase. I love a Canada that takes a hard look at spending priorities. Big deal.


Oh I'm sure the more it reflects your ideologies, the more your love will grow. At the end of the day, it's all about love of self. If the 'object' reflects back the image we want to identify with...

...that's Amore.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Oh I'm sure the more it reflects your ideologies, the more your love will grow. At the end of the day, it's all about love of self. If the 'object' reflects back the image we want to identify with...
> 
> ...that's Amore.


How would such a concept be different from you "loving" a country that reflects your values?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> How would such a concept be different from you "loving" a country that reflects your values?


Values, ideologies, it doesn't matter.


----------



## groovetube

published in the spring, but quite the list:

The Canadian War on Science: A long, unexaggerated, devastating chronological indictment – Confessions of a Science Librarian


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> published in the spring, but quite the list:
> 
> The Canadian War on Science: A long, unexaggerated, devastating chronological indictment – Confessions of a Science Librarian


He's linking the _Tyee _as his source on the library. At least you're consistent.


----------



## groovetube

I remember when people guffawed that it was the Star reporting on Ford's crack use.

Thems were good times eh.


----------



## kps

Sorry boys, I'm leaving this jousting tournament for now, don't have the time, too much sheit hitting the fan --like my snow blower constantly breaking down (twice today) with more snow being predicted, HDD problems and other inconvenient stuff.

As Arnie said "I'll be back".


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Sorry boys, I'm leaving this jousting tournament for now, don't have the time, too much sheit hitting the fan --like my snow blower constantly breaking down (twice today) with more snow being predicted, HDD problems and other inconvenient stuff.
> 
> As Arnie said "I'll be back".


Take care out there.


----------



## groovetube

Yeah stay warm up there, hope you don't have any power issues. Next couple days are going to get pretty cold.

Which, I'm sure is Harpers fault.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Which, I'm sure is Harpers fault.


Trolling again, or is that still?


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Trolling again, or is that still?


Or not at all.

Is there no room left for joking here in ehMacland? This constant witch hunt is getting tired (actually, it started tired). You don't like GT - we all get it. Your attempt to push him out with your constant badgering isn't working. What is working is everyone else is leaving.

Please stop.


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> Or not at all.
> 
> Is there no room left for joking here in ehMacland? This constant witch hunt is getting tired (actually, it started tired). You don't like GT - we all get it. Your attempt to push him out with your constant badgering isn't working. What is working is everyone else is leaving.
> 
> Please stop.


You are asking the wrong person to stop. I did not troll.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Or not at all.
> 
> Is there no room left for joking here in ehMacland? This constant witch hunt is getting tired (actually, it started tired). You don't like GT - we all get it. Your attempt to push him out with your constant badgering isn't working. What is working is everyone else is leaving.
> 
> Please stop.


jeez. It was a joke between friends, complete with a smilie.

Just someone looking for another fight. Yawn.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> jeez. It was a joke between friends, complete with a smilie.
> 
> Just someone looking for another fight. Yawn.


No, it was a deliberate attempt, as usual, trolling to spark a reaction.


----------



## Stink

.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> No, it was a deliberate attempt, as usual, trolling to spark a reaction.


Truthfully SINC I think it was said tongue in cheek. kps and gt have met each other over a few beers I believe (correct me if I am wrong gt or kps). So they know each others politics. 

I really don't think any harm was meant other than as a friendly bit of ribbing. I could be wrong as always.

That was my take away anyhow.

Peace out.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Truthfully SINC I think it was said tongue in cheek. kps and gt have met each other over a few beers I believe (correct me if I am wrong gt or kps). So they know each others politics.
> 
> I really don't think any harm was meant other than as a friendly bit of ribbing. I could be wrong as always.
> 
> That was my take away anyhow.
> 
> Peace out.


Yep, you got it, as did others. I think obviously, blaming Harper for the cold weather was a joke, I mean, really. Even put a smilie on it. And yes, I have had a beer with kps, and I thought it was a joke even on us 'lefties' about blaming everything on Harper.

It's unfortunate the thread, again took such a turn, but I won't give in to such a useless fight. Hopefully it'll get back to the topic.


----------



## i-rui

Apologies if it's already been posted but I'm not going to go wade through the back-and-forth to find out.

The CBC aired a segment on the library closings. they also have this on their website:

Fisheries and Oceans library closings called loss to science - Politics - CBC News

It's a bit more clarification but just a lot of questions to ask.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Apologies if it's already been posted but I'm not going to go wade through the back-and-forth to find out.
> 
> The CBC aired a segment on the library closings. they also have this on their website:
> 
> Fisheries and Oceans library closings called loss to science - Politics - CBC News
> 
> It's a bit more clarification but just a lot of questions to ask.





> One of those critics was Tom Siddon, the former federal fisheries minister in Brian Mulroney's Progressive Conservative government. He was responsible for the last major overhaul of the Fisheries Act that introduced many of the environmental protections that were taken out of the act in 2012.
> 
> "I call it [closing libraries] Orwellian, because some might suspect that it's driven by a notion to exterminate all unpopular scientific findings that interfere with the government's economic objectives," Siddon told the CBC.
> 
> Siddon suggests striking an independent panel to determine the relevance and importance of the documents.
> 
> "You do not extinguish national libraries of knowledge or history in an arbitrary way any more than the government would be allowed to extinguish the record of cabinet deliberations or to burn the books of Hansard," he added.


Indeed. This needs to be investigated and the full story uncovered.


----------



## MacDoc




----------



## Macfury

I would certainly expect Siddon to be pissed--as the Fisheries Minister of one of the most "progressive" governments of recent years. He never met a spending program he didn't like.


----------



## groovetube

Not really sure what -your- opinion of his politic has to do with what's happening here. It almost seems like a stock line, someone says something of the subject, well he's a 'progressive spender'.

Useless without context.


----------



## Macfury

Siddon does nothing but guess and get angry because he sees his "work" being undone. No new information presented, however.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Siddon does nothing but guess and get angry because he sees his "work" being undone. No new information presented, however.


I don't think the library of information was 'Siddon's work', nor was it all done during his time as Fisheries minister.


----------



## Macfury

Read your own link--some of his environmental policies have been axed.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Read your own link--some of his environmental policies have been axed.


So?


----------



## MacDoc

*dripping with egg.....that would be frozen egg tho*



> In what is being considered a first by a member of the federal Conservatives, Kitchener-Waterloo MP Peter Braid stated publicly on CBC News Network’s Power and Politics *that recent extreme weather and climate change are connected.*
> 
> “We are seeing the effects, the impacts of climate change,” Braid told host Evan Solomon on Monday. “With climate change comes extreme weather events. We saw that through the floods in southern Alberta, we’re now seeing that with the ice storms in Kitchener-Waterloo and Toronto, with the extreme cold across the country.”
> 
> *Solomon later asked Braid to confirm he was saying that extreme weather and climate change are related, to which Braid replied, “Absolutely, I’m confirming I said that.”*
> 
> The statement comes on the same day that two people were arrested in Vancouver after they came within centimetres of Prime Minister Stephen Harper and displayed signs protesting the government’s policies on climate change.


Conservative MP Peter Braid says extreme weather and climate change linked - Kitchener-Waterloo - CBC News

just where is the party whip when needed.....

Good on Braid for speaking out....it's about time :clap:

anyone got a Swedish dictionay for Harper....



> Sweden Prepares to Lead EU on Climate | Worldwatch Institute
> Sweden Prepares to Lead EU on Climate | Worldwatch Institute
> December 26, 2013 • Updated: 2 min 31 sec ago ...* The Nordic country plans to be carbon neutral - releasing zero net carbon emissions - by 2050 ..*. Sweden will lead the EU when international climate negotiators meet in Copenhagen in December ...


Sweden Prepares to Lead EU on Climate | Worldwatch Institute

oh yeah ....Sweden came in number 4thin competitiveness in the world against Canada's 7th

Sweden LEADS Scandinavian countries in world competitiveness ranking but the USA regained its rightful place as the most competitive country on earth

It CAN be done....just need some politicans with vision and guts to lead.


----------



## FeXL

You will cling to the faintest hope, won't you? That must hurt, actually endorsing that most hateful of things, a <spit> Conservative.

Again, I note how the mighty have fallen. From Settled Science all the way down to "Hey, a Conservative politician said it's so!"

You see this smile, Davey boy?  That's schadenfreude.

Have a great day...


----------



## Macfury

Yep. I recall a Conservative politician enjoying a golf game in early December about 5 years ago and declaring that "the climate is sick," whatever that means. There was much rejoicing in MacDocland--and still nothing is being "done"--thank goodness.

What's cool is that watching this AGW business fall back into obscurity us like having a front row seat at the collapse of Holland's Tukip-o-mania. Full blown delusion among the kook fringe.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

MacDoc said:


> Conservative MP Peter Braid says extreme weather and climate change linked - Kitchener-Waterloo - CBC News
> 
> just where is the party whip when needed.....
> 
> Good on Braid for speaking out....it's about time :clap:
> 
> anyone got a Swedish dictionay for Harper....
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden Prepares to Lead EU on Climate | Worldwatch Institute
> 
> oh yeah ....Sweden came in number 4thin competitiveness in the world against Canada's 7th
> 
> Sweden LEADS Scandinavian countries in world competitiveness ranking but the USA regained its rightful place as the most competitive country on earth
> 
> It CAN be done....just need some politicans with vision and guts to lead.


Without question Braid will face the same discipline Eve Adams received for going off-script - the hook. You will never see him on Power and Politics again.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Without question Braid will faced the same discipline Eve Adams received for going off-script - the hook. You will never see him on Power and Politics again.


I hope that this will be alitmus test for anyone appearing there, from any political party.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Without question Braid will faced the same discipline Eve Adams received for going off-script - the hook. You will never see him on Power and Politics again.


Well whether it's the 2015 or the minority that crumbles afterwards to make way for some sanity, these fossils are clearly falling out of favour with Canadians big time. It won't matter whether they're off script or not, no one will be listening except for the small minority base.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another example of the CON entitlement club. Not fit for majority govt.

Taxpayers picked up tab for MP Patrick Brown's New York Marathon trip


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*How do you spell slippery?*

More slime oozing from the CON oil pump.

Former Tory minister on the hot seat over Enbridge lobbying gig - Inside Politics


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More slime oozing from the CON oil pump.
> 
> Former Tory minister on the hot seat over Enbridge lobbying gig - Inside Politics


I say he should step down so CSIS can continue to spy on ForestEthics Advocacy!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*More smell from Oda*

Hey this one cost more than the $16 orange juice. Peeeeewwww what an Oda.

A refugee camp and a game park hotel: Bev Oda goes to Africa - Editor's Picks, The World Desk - Macleans.ca


----------



## macintosh doctor

How annoying is Olivia chow ? First she is worried how china perceives Toronto, in wake of Rob ford :-/
Now this. She complains that Pearson airport is shut down. 
Chow raps Pearson over weather-related flight delays, cancellations | 680News
Maybe her bags can end up in the US on her next flight to China when she is there to praise them on 
Human rights LOL


----------



## screature

macintosh doctor said:


> How annoying is Olivia chow ? First she is worried how china perceives Toronto, in wake of Rob ford :-/
> Now this. She complains that Pearson airport is shut down.
> Chow raps Pearson over weather-related flight delays, cancellations | 680News
> Maybe her bags can end up in the US on her next flight to China when she is there to praise them on
> Human rights LOL


Wah!!! 

Now the *weather* is someone's fault!

She reminds me of my grandmother, who if the weather was bad, she blamed it on Diefenbaker (who she hated).

Haters are going to hate, blamers are going to blame and whiners are going to whine.

Same as it ever was.

This exchange is priceless:



> Chow tweeted, “Surely the Greater Toronto Airport Authority saw the weather forecast and have a plan? This performance is not acceptable. @lraitt”
> 
> In a tweet, federal Transport Minister Lisa Raitt responded, “@oliviachow best to follow @TorontoPearson for updates on ground stop. I know you agree that worker health and safety is top priority.”
> 
> Chow concurred with Raitt but added “@TorontoPearson needs better communciations.”


She then added this little ridiculous tidbit:



> She then wondered how Winnipeg airport manages flights since it faces average winter temperatures of -23 C and a “flight from Thunder Bay landed there w no problem.”


Uh yeah, two small cities (one just a big town really) that face these kinds of temps every year and so have to spend the money to be prepared to deal with these conditions on a regular/yearly/ongoing basis and she is going to try and make comparisons to one of the busiest airports in the world and it is supposed to layout the capital for the equipment needed for once or twice in a decade weather conditions??!!

Get over yourself Olivia.


----------



## groovetube

yeah those aren't very good comparisons really.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> ...and she is going to try and make comparisons to one of the busiest airports in the world and it is supposed to layout the capital for the equipment needed for once or twice in a decade weather conditions??!!
> 
> Get over yourself Olivia.


What an overprivileged Chow!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> What an overprivileged cow!


Whoa there "cow"boy... 

I know what you are trying to say but that kind of language is not really going to help.

Cow is not exactly a very good word choice when referring to women.

I'm just saying you can expect blow back from the use of that word where another may have made your point just as well without the potential fall out.

Anyway that is just my opinion, but yes she does not seem to understand the complexities involved.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Whoa there "cow"boy...
> 
> I know what you are trying to say but that kind of language is not really going to help.


Too much _Hell's Kitchen_.

See edit.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *Too much Hell's Kitchen*.
> 
> See edit.


:lmao: 

That's a little better.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Jeffrey Simpson on the decline of the Harper govt.*

Simpson used to be required reading but he has faltered in recent times. However he nails it this time around. A good read with an excellent summary.

"Today, with perhaps 30 per cent (maximum) of the electorate prepared to vote Conservative, the party commands the loyalty of far fewer voters than the old Progressive Conservatives. In 1979, Joe Clark won 36 per cent of the popular vote in defeating prime minister Pierre Trudeau’s Liberals (who actually won 40 per cent themselves). Brian Mulroney won 50 per cent in his landslide victory of 1984.

At its very best, in the 2011 election, Mr. Harper’s party won just a marginally higher share of the popular vote than Mr. Clark, and way below the share won by Mr. Mulroney, whose party Mr. Harper so disliked. More ominous for Mr. Harper, the number of Canadians who prefer the Conservatives as their second choice is very, very low. The party’s growth potential is limited.

There is no chance of this government changing either its focus – this was set in Mr. Harper’s mind a long time ago – or the way it does politics, namely governing in permanent campaign mode. It is far too late to change either."


It's too late for Harper to change course - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

So what good is winning if you're a Progressive Conservative? You govern like a Liberal and the Liberals still hate you. I really dislike articles such as this which concentrate solely on "winning" as an end in itself. Extremely shallow stuff.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> So what good is winning if you're a Progressive Conservative? You govern like a Liberal and the Liberals still hate you. I really dislike articles such as this which concentrate solely on "winning" as an end in itself. Extremely shallow stuff.


That's a Conservative problem to deal with. What Simpson alludes to is the opportunity for the opposition to seize and either form the government or reduce the current govt to a minority. I personally view the vote splitting that will occur will help the Conservatives come up the middle and win, although with a reduced number of seats - hopefully a minority.


----------



## groovetube

It sucks when a minority of people can't ram their loopy ideology and crap down everyone else's throat.

This whole 'you gotta be a happy medium kinda guy' crap is for da birds!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> It sucks when a minority of people can't ram their loopy ideology and crap down everyone else's throat.
> 
> This whole 'you gotta be a happy medium kinda guy' crap is for da birds!


Yeah and its freakin' cold this winter eh!? Time to throw another science book on the fire.


----------



## mrjimmy

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yeah and its freakin' cold this winter eh!? Time to throw another science book on the fire.


:lmao: and  at the same time.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It sucks when a minority of people can't ram their loopy ideology and crap down everyone else's throat.
> 
> This whole 'you gotta be a happy medium kinda guy' crap is for da birds!


The NDP?


----------



## groovetube

either ends of the extreme macfury. See, it's pretty simple!


----------



## Macfury

There is no "extreme" in Canada.


----------



## groovetube

From your perspective, I can see that. However given the vast majority of Canadians are in general pretty centrist, the far right of harper and far left of some elements of the NDP (Mulcair seems to have moved slightly towards centre...) that's about as extreme as Canadians get.

It's all relative.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> From your perspective, I can see that. However given the vast majority of Canadians are in general pretty centrist, the far right of harper and far left of some elements of the NDP (Mulcair seems to have moved slightly towards centre...) that's about as extreme as Canadians get.
> 
> It's all relative.


My problem with Harper is that he's a centrist. There are no extreme views being presented by any of the three major parties.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> My problem with Harper is that he's a centrist. There are no extreme views being presented by any of the three major parties.


He's had to swing more to the centre to even be electable.

If he swings back right, Canadians won't elect him, certainly not for long. Thank god for that.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> From your perspective, I can see that. However given the vast majority of Canadians are in general pretty centrist, *the far right of harper *and far left of some elements of the NDP (Mulcair seems to have moved slightly towards centre...) that's about as extreme as Canadians get.
> 
> It's all relative.


Sorry groove but in terms of keeping things "relative", Harper is a moderate on the right. That is why he can "get along" with Obama. Compared to the real far right in the US Harper is a Democrat.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sorry groove but in terms of keeping things "relative", Harper is a moderate on the right. That is why he can "get along" with Obama. Compared to the real far right in the US Harper is a Democrat.


He certainly plays a moderate on the right, and obviously he's had to moderate even more to remain electable. Brian Mulroney, perhaps -he- is a moderate as far as conservatives go.

By relative, Harper is certainly further right than the majority of Canadians, which tend to be much more centrist. Despite the pipe dream of turning Canada into a real conservative country.No one is going to convince me, that Harper is a centrist, he's just had to play one.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> He certainly plays a moderate on the right, and obviously he's had to moderate even more to remain electable. Brian Mulroney, perhaps -he- is a moderate as far as conservatives go.
> 
> By relative, Harper is certainly further right than the majority of Canadians, which tend to be much more centrist. Despite the pipe dream of turning Canada into a real conservative country.No one is going to convince me, that Harper is a centrist, he's just had to play one.


Absolutely agree with this. Thinking otherwise is either naive or wishful.


----------



## CubaMark

*Gail Shea Denies Books Burned As Fisheries Libraries Consolidated*

_Fisheries Minister Gail Shea is denying reports that scientific research was burned or discarded in the name of cost-cutting.

And Shea says the decision to consolidate Department of Fisheries and Oceans libraries was about standing up for taxpayers, not stifling science.

* * * 

Shea said "serious misinformation" has been spread about the move to consolidate such materials,

* * * 

The Tory minister also says books were not burned or discarded in dumpsters, as scientists anonymously told independent online magazine The Tyee in December.

The minister said in the statement that duplicate materials, including books, were offered to other libraries and staff, then to the general public, and finally recycled "in a green fashion" if there were no takers.

"It is absolutely false to pretend that any books were burnt," she concludes.

* * *

But Shea's version of events clashes with what some prominent researchers have been saying.

* * *

In a story published online Tuesday from The Globe and Mail, scientists also described irreplaceable research being grabbed for free or "hauled off to the dumpster" after the purge of fisheries libraries.

Dr. Peter Wells of the International Ocean Institute at Dalhousie University told the Globe that historic research used to determine how rivers and lakes have changed is not available digitally.

"I see this situation as a national tragedy, done under the pretext of cost savings, which, when examined closely, will prove to be a false motive,"​_
(HuffPo)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Fun the whole family can enjoy!*

.


----------



## groovetube

"standing up for taxpayers!"

r-i-i-i-ght.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Oh boy! Someone doesn't like Harper*

.[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EJ8eR6gc7Ls]Stephen "Pinocchio" Harper Un-Welcomed in Vancouver (Language Warning) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*More on the book burning*

Book burning 21st Century Style | National Newswatch


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Book burning 21st Century Style | National Newswatch


No new information on alleged book burning.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Dr. Peter Wells of the International Ocean Institute at Dalhousie University told the Globe that historic research used to determine how rivers and lakes have changed is not available digitally.


I guess Wells didn't want to take away all of the valuable material that is "being given away for free" or "carted off."


----------



## groovetube

maybe you should go ask wells.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I guess Wells didn't want to take away all of the valuable material that is "being given away for free" or "carted off."


maybe he did but couldn't.

you see the problem with that is once the valuable material of a library is "given away" or "carted off" they're no longer available to the rest of the public who may want to access that content.

hence the purpose of having libraries.


----------



## Macfury

Maybe the books were burned. Maybe they were carted off. Maybe something important is being lost--but not a shred of evidence. I wish this was happening during a Liberal government, so nobody would be whining about it.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Maybe the books were burned. Maybe they were carted off. Maybe something important is being lost--but not a shred of evidence. I wish this was happening during a Liberal government, so nobody would be whining about it.


Do you suppose Wells is a Liberal?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Maybe the books were burned. Maybe they were carted off. Maybe something important is being lost--but not a shred of evidence. I wish this was happening during a Liberal government, so nobody would be whining about it.


there *is* evidence of the books being carted off and in dumpsters, even the government has acknowledged that.

the idea of digitizing a library's contents is a good one, until you realize they can't do it if they don't own the copyright to it. in that case I would hope someone would realize that content is exactly why we still need physical libraries.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Maybe the books were burned. Maybe they were carted off. Maybe something important is being lost--but not a shred of evidence. I wish this was happening during a Liberal government, so nobody would be whining about it.


I don't care who is in government. If this is happening it should be spotlighted and protested.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> there is evidence of the books being carted off and in dumpsters, even the government has acknowledged that.


There is no indication that unique information is being dumped.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> There is no indication that unique information is being dumped.


no, the copyrighted information is not *unique*, but that doesn't make it any less valuable to research.

if the library dumps it where can people access it?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> no, the copyrighted information is not *unique*, but that doesn't make it any less valuable to research.
> 
> if the library dumps it where can people access it?


You have absolutely no indication how often this material was being accessed, the number of library users, etc. Toronto libraries have removed hundreds of thousands of books from circulation through the years, as have libraries across Canada based on usage and relevance of information. It's a feeble defense for me to declare: "Where do you expect me to find that book now?" I don't expect to have every piece of information that ever existed at my beck and call for free.


----------



## i-rui

these aren't your run of the mill public libraries MF. they house scientific material not the latest danielle steel novel.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Do you suppose Wells is a Liberal?


Yes he certainly looks like one. Disgusting isn't it?


----------



## i-rui

eww, is he holding up a *book*?

hate those things.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

i-rui said:


> eww, is he holding up a *book*?
> 
> hate those things.


No it's an award plaque from his oceanic work from the state of Maine. Scientific award plaques are next on the list for disposal.


----------



## i-rui

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> No it's an award plaque from his oceanic work from the state of Maine.


sounds fishy.

do not trust.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey this Chris Christie guy in Jersey reminds me of Harp Harper.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> these aren't your run of the mill public libraries MF. they house scientific material not the latest danielle steel novel.


Seriously? This is your response? You should see the number of academic texts permanently removed from such collections each year.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Seriously? This is your response? You should see the number of academic texts permanently removed from such collections each year.


yes thats my response. i'd love to see the number of academic texts culled every year. i'm sure as a percentage it would pale in comparison to what is happening at these libraries.

the harper government is closing 7 of 11 Department of Fisheries and Oceans libraries. 

7 of 11.

thats not a convenience store, that's almost 70%. 

but keep trying to pass it off as normal maintenance.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*There's that darn Tyee again!*

Monkey see, Monkey do.

The Tyee – Canada's Science Library Closures Mirror Bush's Playbook


----------



## Macfury

How many fisheries libraries does the country need, in your estimation? Prior to this story coming out, entirely as an effort to attack Stephen Harper, I'll bet you didn't have any opinion on it at all.



i-rui said:


> yes thats my response. i'd love to see the number of academic texts culled every year. i'm sure as a percentage it would pale in comparison to what is happening at these libraries.
> 
> the harper government is closing 7 of 11 Department of Fisheries and Oceans libraries.
> 
> 7 of 11.
> 
> thats not a convenience store, that's almost 70%.
> 
> but keep trying to pass it off as normal maintenance.


----------



## screature

The facts on library consolidation at Fisheries and Oceans



> January 7, 2014 - Ottawa, Ontario
> 
> The Honourable Gail Shea, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, today issued the following statement:
> 
> Serious misinformation was spread recently about the consolidation of Department of Fisheries and Oceans libraries. Let me correct the record.
> 
> DFO owns one of the world's most comprehensive collections of information on fisheries, aquatic sciences and nautical sciences. Our Government values these collections and will continue to strongly support it by continuing to add new material on an ongoing basis.
> 
> The decision to consolidate our network of libraries was based on value for taxpayers. The primary users of DFO libraries, over 86%, are employees of the Department. *An average of only five to 12 people who work outside of DFO visited our eleven libraries each year.* It is not fair to taxpayers to make them pay for libraries that so few people actually used.
> 
> Users of these libraries clearly prefer to access its information digitally, which the Department of Fisheries and Oceans can accommodate while also saving taxpayers money. In 2011, for example, over 95% of the total documents provided to users were provided digitally through self-service or library-staff virtually assisted service.
> 
> Users will continue to have completely free access to every item in DFO’s collections. All materials for which DFO has copyright will be preserved by the Department.
> 
> Duplicate materials, including books, from the libraries being consolidated were offered to other libraries and third parties if they wanted them. They were also offered to the DFO staff on site at the library, then offered to the general public, and finally were recycled in a "green" fashion if there were no takers. It is absolutely false to insinuate that any books were burnt.
> 
> Our Government is proud to stand up for taxpayers while retaining our important scientific knowledge.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> How many fisheries libraries does the country need, in your estimation? Prior to this story coming out, entirely as an effort to attack Stephen Harper, I'll bet you didn't have any opinion on it at all.


Yes how much information is needed in a country with the most fresh water on the planet that has 3 Ocean coasts? I mean how much biodiversity can there be? Only your local scientist is able to help answer the question.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes how much information is needed in a country with the most fresh water on the planet that has 3 Ocean coasts? I mean how much biodiversity can there be? Only your local scientist is able to help answer the question.


What does my local scientist have to do with maintaining duplicate information in muliple libraries?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The facts on library consolidation at Fisheries and Oceans


As I suspected.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The facts on library consolidation at Fisheries and Oceans





> The decision to consolidate our network of libraries was based on value for taxpayers. The primary users of DFO libraries, over 86%, are employees of the Department. An average of only five to 12 people who work outside of DFO visited our eleven libraries each year. It is not fair to taxpayers to make them pay for libraries that so few people actually used.


you can apply this sort of this logic to almost all government spending.

by this flawed argument we should slash military spending. how many people outside of the military have access to their equipment? think of the billions we can save!! of course that's silly, because our military provides a service to Canada.

which is what the DFO is supposed to do. One of Canada's most precious resources is our fresh water. That will only increase in the future. Scientific research is important to safeguard that.

there isn't even any consideration to these cuts. perhaps if they closed 1 or 2 to see how they affected the department that might be reasonable. closing down 7 of 11 libraries is careless & irresponsible. we have no idea what kind of impact such dramatic cuts will do to the good work these people do.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ah c'mon now. Who needs another Alexandria?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> you can apply this sort of this logic to almost all government spending.
> 
> by this flawed argument we should slash military spending. how many people outside of the military have access to their equipment? think of the billions we can save!! of course that's silly, because our military provides a service to Canada.
> 
> which is what the DFO is supposed to do. One of Canada's most precious resources is our fresh water. That will only increase in the future. Scientific research is important to safeguard that.
> 
> there isn't even any consideration to these cuts. perhaps if they closed 1 or 2 to see how they affected the department that might be reasonable. closing down 7 of 11 libraries is careless & irresponsible. we have no idea what kind of impact such dramatic cuts will do to the good work these people do.


You missed the point entirely. DFO staff continue to have full access to all of the material. 

Be honest, you never gave a crap about DFO libraries until you learned that you might be able to criticize the Harper government over it.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> you can apply this sort of this logic to almost all government spending.
> 
> by this flawed argument we should slash military spending. how many people outside of the military have access to their equipment? think of the billions we can save!! of course that's silly, because our military provides a service to Canada.
> 
> which is what the DFO is supposed to do. One of Canada's most precious resources is our fresh water. That will only increase in the future. Scientific research is important to safeguard that.
> 
> there isn't even any consideration to these cuts. perhaps if they closed 1 or 2 to see how they affected the department that might be reasonable. closing down 7 of 11 libraries is careless & irresponsible. we have no idea what kind of impact such dramatic cuts will do to the good work these people do.


Uh no not the same thing at all, not even close:

Again:



> *On average of only five to 12 people who work outside of DFO visited our eleven libraries each year.*


And again:



> Users of these libraries clearly prefer to access its information digitally, which the Department of Fisheries and Oceans can accommodate while also saving taxpayers money.* In 2011, for example, over 95% of the total documents provided to users were provided digitally through self-service or library-staff virtually assisted service.
> *
> *Users will continue to have completely free access to every item in DFO’s collections.* All materials for which DFO has copyright will be preserved by the Department.


----------



## i-rui

The Tyee – Scientists Say DFO's Library Closure Defence Doesn't Add Up


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> You missed the point entirely. DFO staff continue to have full access to all of the material.


they won't have access to anything in dumpsters.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> they won't have access to anything in dumpsters.


Again:



> *Duplicate materials*, including books, from the libraries being consolidated were offered to other libraries and third parties if they wanted them. They were also offered to the DFO staff on site at the library, then offered to the general public, and finally were recycled in a "green" fashion if there were no takers.


----------



## Macfury

I love it. _The Tyee_ has not been able to substantiate any of its claims, yet demands proof that their assertions are NOT correct.


----------



## i-rui

from the eyewitness accounts of the initial closings it seems everything was in disarray and chaotic. I'm skeptical that limited staff would be able to track what was a duplicate and what was not. The Tyee had asked Gail Shea for clarification on the closings and her terse statement does little to answer the specifics on what was dumped and what was kept.


----------



## i-rui

i'll also add that the hypocrisy from the Harper supporters is mind bending. closing libraries devoted to researching and protecting our eco system to save a few hundred thousand is perfectly fine in the name of respecting our tax dollars, and yet billion dollar jets and adding billions more to ramp up our criminal population ain't no thing.

the disconnect is astounding.


----------



## Macfury

> from the eyewitness accounts of the initial closings it seems everything was in disarray and chaotic. I'm skeptical that limited staff would be able to track what was a duplicate and what was not. The Tyee had asked Gail Shea for clarification on the closings and her terse statement does little to answer the specifics on what was dumped and what was kept.


I'm not surprised that the libraries were being run in chaotic fashion--this is government after all. Perhaps now, with the collections rationalized, they will be able to do a better job.



i-rui said:


> i'll also add that the hypocrisy from the Harper supporters is mind bending. closing libraries devoted to researching and protecting our eco system to save a few hundred thousand is perfectly fine in the name of respecting our tax dollars, and yet billion dollar jets and adding billions more to ramp up our criminal population ain't no thing.
> 
> the disconnect is astounding.


Even if you feel the jetfighter project is a waste of money, it does not reflect at all on whether the DFO library decision is a cost-effective one.


----------



## groovetube

Are the collections being rationalized? So far all we've heard is some blather about "standing up for the tax payer". 

Whoever this government pulls out this sorry line, you know there's plenty BS in the background.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Are the collections being rationalized? So far all we've heard is some blather about "standing up for the tax payer".
> 
> Whoever this government pulls out this sorry line, you know there's plenty BS in the background.


In other words, you have no facts to back up your contention.


----------



## groovetube

So questioning you, automatically means I don't have facts?

That's a rather roundabout way of saying you haven't a clue at all macfury


----------



## Macfury

Questioning just means you have questions. Questioning the existence of unicorns or purple kangaroos does not make them any more real.


----------



## groovetube

r i i i i ght.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i'll also add that the hypocrisy from the Harper supporters is mind bending. closing libraries devoted to researching and protecting our eco system to save a few hundred thousand is perfectly fine in the name of respecting our tax dollars,* and yet billion dollar jets* and *adding billions more to ramp up our criminal population ain't no thing.*
> 
> the disconnect is astounding.


Not one penny has been spent on actual acquisition of fighter jet hardware not a single cent... But the fleet does have to be replaced.

Where do you get "billions" from? Even it were in the billions, if we are safer by increasing the prison population relative to the hundreds of billions lost due to criminal activity I think it is a fair trade off.

The disconnect is astounding.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> from the eyewitness accounts of the initial closings it seems everything was in disarray and chaotic. I'm skeptical that limited staff would be able to track what was a duplicate and what was not. *The Tyee had asked Gail Shea *for clarification on the closings and her terse statement does little to answer the specifics on what was dumped and what was kept.


No they didn't where do you get that from? All they did was this:



> "*An agency (my addition what "Agency"? DFO is not an agency it is a full blown Ministry not an agency) "spokesperson" (my emphasis) did not answer a series of questions posed by The Tyee. Instead David Walters referred The Tyee to a "government propaganda site". What web site? what does it say there? No mention.*


No real investigation at all, just taking at face value the testimony of a couple of "witnesses". Who are they? We don't know. 

There is no proven veracity to their claims at all. All we have is the unproven testimony of a couple of people who say they work for DFO and could be simply disgruntled employees with a bone to pick.

Not exactly credible IMO. At least not at this point.


----------



## screature

Conservative MP Patrick Brown won’t bill taxpayers for New York City Marathon trip



> ...On Wednesday afternoon, Brown decided that he won’t take the money for the trip after all.
> 
> “Out of an abundance of caution and utmost respect for Canadian taxpayers, I will no longer be seeking reimbursement for this trip from the House of Commons,” he said in a statement.
> 
> “I proactively posted the expense claim on my website prior to receiving a reimbursement. I have not received any reimbursement nor will I.”
> 
> Brown’s expense report appeared on his website. Conservative and Liberal MPs began this fall to post expense reports for individual trips, a level of detail not available from the expense reports provided by the House of Commons administration.
> 
> The NDP has not matched the initiative from the other two parties, saying that they are concerned about individual MPs being responsible for posting their own expenses.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> No they didn't where do you get that from?


First paragraph of the article linked above:

_*After refusing to answer Tyee questions* about the dismantling of seven DFO libraries nearly three weeks ago, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Gail Shea issued a press release Tuesday claiming to cite "facts" countering "serious misinformation."_​


----------



## groovetube

It sounds like some scrambling going on now that it's made bigger news than they figured on, and then the blanket "respect for taxpayers" gets trotted out.

Whenever you hear that line, watch out...


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> First paragraph of the article linked above:
> 
> _*After refusing to answer Tyee questions* about the dismantling of seven DFO libraries nearly three weeks ago, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Gail Shea issued a press release Tuesday claiming to cite "facts" countering "serious misinformation."_​


That is based on the response of the "spokesperson" not the Minister.


----------



## groovetube

well, the spokesperson didn't answer, and neither did the minister.

I think my last post sums it up quite likely.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It sounds like some scrambling going on now that it's made bigger news than they figured on, and then the blanket "respect for taxpayers" gets trotted out.
> 
> *Whenever you hear that line, watch out...*


Why?

The government has been very clear they are making every attempt to eliminate the deficit.

At least it isn't coming from a reduction in transfer payments to the provinces like it did with the former Lib government in order to balance the books.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Why?
> 
> The government has been very clear they are making every attempt to eliminate the deficit.
> 
> At least it isn't coming from a reduction in transfer payments to the provinces like it did with the former Lib government in order to balance the books.


what does the transfers to provinces have to do with this?

Perhaps if they weren't spending like drunken sailors for the period they have been governing they wouldn't be slashing and burning everything in sight.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> well, the spokesperson didn't answer, and neither did the minister.
> 
> I think my last post sums it up quite likely.


They didn't actually get a hold of the Minister now did they... it wasn't a refusal to answer at all. The "spokesperson" referred them to a website that the Tyee referred to as "propaganda" (nice unbiased reporting there) they were just lazy (as per usual) and reported an unbalanced story.

The "spokesperson" undoubtedly referred them to the website because they didn't have the authorization or knowledge of the case to say otherwise.

There is this thing called chain of command and responsibility. If you don't know the answer you defer to public knowledge.

This also happened during the Holiday season, so knowing the way government works I am not at all surprised that things went down they way they did.

Most DFO staffers with actual knowledge of the case including the Minister were most likely unavailable for comment. That does not equate to being a "refusal to answer".

After the holidays were over they replied to the accusations in relatively short order.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> what does the transfers to provinces have to do with this?
> 
> Perhaps if they weren't spending like drunken sailors for the period they have been governing they wouldn't be slashing and burning everything in sight.


Transfers to the provinces have much to do with it as that was one of the ways the Libs balanced the books when they were faced with deficits while in power.

Groove this government's spending was primarily on economic stimulus, the very thing the opposition was calling for, the only problem for the opposition was that they weren't spending enough and continuing programs beyond their expiration date.

Let's keep it real here.


----------



## groovetube

Really? Let's just start with 600 million in conservative party "action" ads, 50 million Clement took and squandered on his riding, oh and well that huge corporate tax cut, that no one has been able to provide a shred of evidence did anything, the list goes on, and on...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ...oh and well that huge corporate tax cut, that no one has been able to provide a shred of evidence did anything....


That must be the small corporate tax cut which you claim created no jobs, but you have no evidence to support it.


----------



## groovetube

oh and let's not fogey growing government bigger than any government in Canadian history.

And appointing senator after senator after senators uselessly to the senate. Eating millions every year.

I'm not buying this government's economic record.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That must be the small corporate tax cut which you claim created no jobs, but you have no evidence to support it.


There you go again, it's like a game for you.

I said, I see no evidence it did anything. If there is, go ahead and show it.


----------



## Macfury

You did it again, like clockwork. You claimed with certainty that it created no jobs, yet you don't really know if it did or it didn't. Classic.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> I said, I see no evidence it did anything. If there is, go ahead and show it.


Not once have you mentioned corporate tax cuts without some disparaging comment. If it did nothing, creating neither harm nor good, then why are you so diametrically opposed to it?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You did it again, like clockwork. You claimed with certainty that it created no jobs, yet you don't really know if it did or it didn't. Classic.


I've claimed nothing with certainty. You're wrong. I've said I see no evidence that putting such a huge hole in the budget like that benefiting the very rich has had the desired effect. It's up to you to show what I don't see.

That could have been directed at the middle class (you know, the people who would spend to revive an economy...) job training etc.

Your constant deflection though gives me enough of an answer though!


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I've claimed nothing with certainty.


Yeah, we all know that happens every day, every time you post.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Really? Let's just start with *600 million in conservative party "action" ads,* 50 million Clement took and squandered on his riding, oh and well that huge corporate tax cut, that no one has been able to provide a shred of evidence did anything, the list goes on, and on...


Shenanigans. They were Government of Canada ads... which they learned from the Chretien Government.

You still have yet to show/prove how the corporate tax reductions harmed our economy, GDP, deficit, etc. 

More corporations doing business in Canada means more corporate tax paid into general revenue. Like I said before it isn't rocket science it is simple mathematics.

Higher corporate tax rates means a reduced bottom line for a given corporation, thus they will set up shop somewhere else that improves their bottom line. Thus competitively speaking, by having an advantageous tax regime Canada is more attractive for investors/corporation who then pay tax here.

How exactly is that a bad thing?


----------



## groovetube

I've stated why I think it's a bad policy. I have not said it harmed our economy nor did I say as macfury parrots endlessly that it failed with certainty.

All you've done is give a talking point as to why corporate tax cuts are good.

I just don't see much of any evidence it was the big job creator it was supposed to be. No evidence really that it proved to be a good move! Merely telling me why you think it's good isn't evidence.

Do you have stats on how many corporations have been attracted to canada and how many bringing jobs here?


----------



## groovetube

And yes the conservatives learned the ad thing from the liberals, and perfected it by spending even more money. A lot more.

Surprising for a party branding itself as a "respect for taxpayers party!"


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I've stated why I think it's a bad policy. I have not said it harmed our economy nor did I say as macfury parrots endlessly that it failed with certainty.
> 
> *All you've done is give a talking point* as to why corporate tax cuts are good.
> 
> I just don't see much of any evidence it was the big job creator it was supposed to be. No evidence really that it proved to be a good move! Merely telling me why you think it's good isn't evidence.
> 
> Do you have stats on how many corporations have been attracted to canada and how many *bringing jobs here*?


No need for that. I think I have demonstrated here that I can think for myself.

Corporations don't need to bring jobs here (clearly it would be of greater benefit if they did) all they need to do is set up shop and pay taxes here to be of benefit to general revenue. This is the same point I have made 3 times now.

Not to mention lowering corporate taxes is more enticing for home grown corporations to stay here and keeping employing Canadians vs. paying lower corporate tax somewhere else and going into some other nations general revenue with the resultant loss of jobs here in Canada.

It isn't only about job creation it is about creating an environment to *keep* jobs in Canada.


----------



## groovetube

Sounds like a peach. It really does!

Except, no evidence of any of it being actual reality.

Macfury just goes in circles, playing I know you are...

And the rest is, just a good theory. But, has it worked???


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Sounds like a peach. It really does!
> *
> Except, no evidence of any of it being actual reality.*
> 
> Macfury just goes in circles, playing I know you are...
> 
> And the rest is,* just a good theory*. But, *has it worked?*??


Link?

Policy is all about theory, if you don't try you don't know.

Specifically I would have to take some time to do the research so I really don't know for sure but to me it just seems to be basic common sense market economics.

Do you know for sure that it hasn't? Link?

What I do know is that relative to most other OECD countries we are doing relatively well.



> *Canada performs exceptionally well in measures of well-being, as shown by the fact that it ranks among the top countries in a large number of topics in the Better Life Index.*
> 
> Money, while it cannot buy happiness, is an important means to achieving higher living standards. In Canada, the average household net-adjusted disposable income is 28 194 USD a year, more than the OECD average of 23 047 USD a year. But there is a considerable gap between the richest and poorest – the top 20% of the population earn more than five times as much as the bottom 20%.
> 
> *In terms of employment, over 72% of people aged 15 to 64 in Canada have a paid job, more than the OECD employment average of 66%.* Some 75% of men are in paid work, compared with 69% of women. People in Canada work 1 702 hours a year, less than the OECD average of 1 776 hours. Some 4% of employees work very long hours, much lower than the OECD average of 9%, with 6% of men working very long hours compared with just 1% for women.
> 
> *Having a good education is an important requisite for finding a job. In Canada, 88% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree, well above the OECD average of 74%*. This is truer of women than of men, as 87% of men have successfully completed high-school compared with 90% of women. This reverses the OECD average picture, where men are slightly more likely to have graduated high school. *Canada is a top-performing country in terms of the quality of its educational system. The average student scored 527 in reading literacy, maths and science in the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA). This score is higher than the OECD average of 497, making Canada one of the strongest OECD countries in students’ skills. On average in Canada, girls outperformed boys by 6 points, lower than the average OECD gap of 9 points.*
> 
> In terms of health, life expectancy at birth in Canada is 81 years, one year higher than the OECD average of 80 years. Life expectancy for women is 83 years, compared with 79 for men. *The level of atmospheric PM10 – tiny air pollutant particles small enough to enter and cause damage to the lungs – is 16 micrograms per cubic meter, considerably lower than the OECD average of 22 micrograms per cubic meter. Canada also does well in terms of water quality, as 89% of people say they are satisfied with the quality of their water, more than the OECD average of 84%.*
> 
> Concerning the public sphere, there is a strong sense of community but only moderate levels of civic participation in Canada, where 94% of people believe that they know someone they could rely on in time of need, higher than the OECD average of 90%. Voter turnout, a measure of public trust in government and of citizens’ participation in the political process, was 61% during recent elections; this figure is lower than the OECD average of 72%. There is little difference in voting levels across society; voter turnout for the top 20% of the population is 63% and for the bottom 20% it is 60%, a much smaller difference than the OECD average gap of 12 percentage points and *suggesting there is broad inclusion in Canada’s democratic institutions.*
> 
> *In general, Canadians are more satisfied with their lives than the OECD average, with 82% of people saying they have more positive experiences in an average day (feelings of rest, pride in accomplishment, enjoyment, etc) than negative ones (pain, worry, sadness, boredom, etc). This figure is higher than the OECD average of 80%.*


Do we have our problems? Of course we do, but unless you can provide evidence that those problems are because of our corporate tax rates may I suggest that you not portray it as such. You simply don't know.

Are we better off because of it, I simply don't know.

But relative to our OECD performance I see no evidence that the policy has harmed us in any way.


----------



## groovetube

I keep getting asked how I know it hasn't worked. This tells me, there is NO evidence it has!

I disagree with the policy. I believe the tax relief SHOULD have gone straight to the middle class. Our corporate tax rates were already low enough! That's my belief, however, if I see real evidence that those tax breaks are -directly- linked to big benefits (it better be substantial given the hit to the tax revenue and the middle class has to wait for their breaks...) then fine!

I don't see anything that tells me, that such a huge tax break for corporations, have really done much of anything to help. After having asked as many times as I have, not one shred has been offered. What does this say?

Yeah.

For the last time, I don't have to provide anything. I may think the policy is wrong, but I'm wide open here to have someone give me real proof this big tax break has done something.

I cannot prove a negative. I would think that obvious!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I keep getting asked how I know it hasn't worked. This tells me, there is NO evidence it has!
> 
> *I disagree with the policy. I believe the tax relief SHOULD have gone straight to the middle class. Our corporate tax rates were already low enough!*
> 
> I don't see anything that tells me, that such a huge tax break for corporations, have really done much of anything to help. After having asked as many times as I have, not one shred has been offered. What does this say?
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> *For the last time, I don't have to provide anything*. I may think the policy is wrong, but I'm wide open here to have someone give me real proof this big tax break has done something.



Oh Groove we know that. 

Yeah you do actually.

You have no indication that the tax structure hasn't done anything. I just presented evidence that Canadians see themselves as doing well despite the tax structure... at least that is something.

You have presented nothing. The onus is on you at this point to validate your claims that the corporate tax structure in Canada has hurt Canadians.


----------



## groovetube

No, the onus isn't on me for anything.

I've been told that we have to give corporations a big tax break, and the rest of us have had to wait for tax breaks. It was billed a big job creator by the Harper government during the election. (just google it if anyone is unsure of that...)

Now, I want to see the benefits. I'm asking, for proof, and man am I getting the runaround on this! That's great that Canadians think we're doing ok. I'll guess not everyone, and recent polls say, for the first time, that a large number think we're on the wrong path.

At this point, it seems that's the clear answer. There isn't any.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> No, the onus isn't on me for anything.
> 
> I've been told that we have to give corporations a big tax break, and the rest of us have had to wait for tax breaks. It was billed a big job creator by the Harper government during the election. (just google it if anyone is unsure of that...)
> 
> Now, I want to see the benefits. I'm asking, for proof, and man am I getting the runaround on this! That's great that Canadians think we're doing ok. I'll guess not everyone, and recent polls say, for the first time, that a large number think we're on the wrong path.
> 
> At this point, it seems that's the clear answer. There isn't any.


You're only asking for some sort of reverse proof now. Initially, you declared uncategorically that the tax cuts had created no jobs. That original statement of yours must have been based on something other than ill will toward the Conservatives.


----------



## groovetube

No, I haven't stated that macfury, no matter how many times you repeat it.

I've said, I don't see any evidence. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

So if anyone is going to claim the benefits of these tax breaks, then let's see real proof.

I think the best I got so far was some vague report that so many thousand jobs were created, with no evidence corporations created them, and if it was because of these breaks. Nothing.

It could have been because of Harper's new haircut for all we know.


----------



## groovetube

I understand this may not be easy proof to gather. So if anyone has it at a later date, I'd love to see it.


----------



## Macfury

That's just lazy ass posting, groove. You can do better than this if you think back to why you originally made such a statement.


----------



## groovetube

Nice try macfury, but that's getting old. Not sure why you're even bothering to post on this if you have nothing to offer for my question.
Since when, is it lazy to say I don't see any evidence, who can find it?

If you can't find it, let someone who can do so then!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Where does Harper find these people?*

And does he do a background check?

Calandra is well known for his non-answers in the house, wasting time telling these long meandering stories of Papa and the pizzeria and Papa and the hair salon.

Well a little investigative reporting reveals that Calandra stole from his own family and placed "internet" charges on mama's credit card.

Wait until Harp Harper looks at his visa statement and finds all these charges to porn sites.
First we had Del Mastro and now we have Calandra and who picked these scoundrels? Harp Harper did.

Paul Calandra court documents point to family dispute over money, assets


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*The Fifth Estate - Silence of the Labs*

And they ain't talkin about dogs. I wonder if they'll talk about the science research doc/book burning? Anyway a must watch tonight from our award winning CBC investigative reporting team. It should be fun the whole family can enjoy! 

Research cutbacks by government alarm scientists - Technology & Science - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

what's being sold here (and people are swallowing it hook line and sinker) is that scientists are just socialist money seeking grant loving leeches who are not respectful of tax dollars and who needs to research slugs and minnows anyway?

Maybe in liberal land where they love crabs oh those elites and their wine and crabmeat it must be those pinko toronto metrosexuals sipping their lattes WE RESPECT THE TAXPAYERS YEEEEEEEHAAAAWWW!

Worst government, ever.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Chow now right*

Recently some members were all over ms. chow for her criticism of the Toronto Airport, one member making fun of her ancestry - well there have been a lot of complaints surfacing and consequently we get this:

Toronto Pearson airport boss admits 'we dropped the ball' - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

when in doubt, blame a socialist.

soooooocialist!


----------



## groovetube

Jobless rate rises: Statistics Canada says 45,900 jobs lost in December | CTV News



> The loss for the month brought the total job gains for 2013 to 102,000, the slowest annual pace since 2009.


Interesting that while some were saying how great Canada is doing, in my circle of business owners, what everyone is talking about, is a real noticeable slowdown for a lot of people.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Jobless rate rises: Statistics Canada says 45,900 jobs lost in December | CTV News
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that while some were saying how great Canada is doing, in my circle of business owners, what everyone is talking about, is a real noticeable slowdown for a lot of people.


Yep. Wall Street's take -

Canada Posts Grim December Jobs Report - WSJ.com

Wow, zero growth for 6 months and a very small gain overall in 2013! Harper!!!!!!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Wall Street's take -
> 
> Canada Posts Grim December Jobs Report - WSJ.com
> 
> Wow, zero growth for 6 months and a very small gain overall in 2013! Harper!!!!!!


Of the 46,000 jobs lost, almost 40,000 were in Ontario. Thanks Kathleen Wynne!


----------



## groovetube

post proof it's Wynne's fault (prediction, not going to happen...)

given Ontario has by far the largest population, it's hardly a surprise when the country slows down.

Trade deficit rising, loonie tumbling, rising unemployment...

The corporate tax cuts is a miracle worker! Just, no evidence presented it's working.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> For the last time, I don't have to provide anything.


It sort of goes hand in hand with your (lack of) credibility...


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> The corporate tax cuts is a miracle worker! Just, no evidence presented it's working.


No evidence it's not working, either...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> No evidence it's not working, either...


Funny you should say that. He originally went on record declaring that they had failed to work. He's since softened his stance to accommodate intellectual laziness.

In the meantime, Ontario continues to lead the pack with almost 90 per cent of the job losses and it's Harper's fault. Of course it has nothing to do with Ontario-no siree.


----------



## groovetube

I know you need to repeat that, because it's all you have. Even though, we both know it's BS. 

So, are you saying, that Harper's grand plan of corporate tax cuts to create jobs, is only valid in other provinces other than Ontario?

Given we have the largest population, I'd say that's a pretty damning statement! Thanks for clearing this up that it's one big FAIL! Unless, you can prove your contention it hasn't failed.

Be my guest.

The conservatives have made the promise. I don't see it, but the floors open for anyone to make their case. (sorry, I can't prove a negative no matter how many times you ask...)

The back-pedalling and squirming is entertaining however. 

To clarify... I have said, I don't see any evidence that these tax cuts creates jobs.

But if you have any, go for it!!!!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Initially, you declared uncategorically that the tax cuts had created no jobs.





groovetube said:


> No, I haven't stated that macfury, no matter how many times you repeat it.





groovetube said:


> There is no real evidence to support tax cuts create jobs.


Quod erat demonstrandum...

Oh, from here, in case anyone is doubting.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Of the 46,000 jobs lost, almost 40,000 were in Ontario. Thanks Kathleen Wynne!





groovetube said:


> post proof it's Wynne's fault (prediction, not going to happen...)


lol

but seriously, there's not ever going to be "proof" for either side of the argument. there's certainly evidence i can point to that corporate tax cuts are not a net benefit, but the economy and jobs are too complex to ever show definitive proof that any single factor changes things indisputably.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> lol
> 
> but seriously, there's not ever going to be "proof" for either side of the argument. there's certainly evidence i can point to that corporate tax cuts are not a net benefit, but the economy and jobs are too complex to ever show definitive proof that any single factor changes things indisputably.


Probably one of the better answers, well, so far. There have been many leading experts (thought they will be labeled socialists or grant seekers if they disagree with Harper...) who have stated that there is no evidence such tax cuts create jobs. I think they're right.

I think a better policy would have balanced things with more for the middle class, and more in job training.

Clearly, with the huge hole the big corporate tax cuts and that useless gst cut (perhaps 1% would have been more prudent??) the conservatives are scrambling to slash anything in their sight to be able to say they balanced the budget. Not sure how sustainable that will be, so they had better hope the economy roars back, and all those foreign corporations will move (back?) to Canada because of the lower rates. Of course, it's not just tax rates that a corporation looks at before moving to a country...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Clearly, with the huge hole the big corporate tax cuts and that useless gst cut (perhaps 1% would have been more prudent??) the conservatives are scrambling to slash anything in their sight to be able to say they balanced the budget. Not sure how sustainable that will be, so they had better hope the economy roars back, and all those foreign corporations will move (back?) to Canada because of the lower rates. Of course, it's not just tax rates that a corporation looks at before moving to a country...


The 2% cut served a far more useful purpose. Guess what it is...


----------



## groovetube

macfury knows more than well, almost every economist in the country lol...


----------



## Macfury

The better economists understand it. It certainly wasn't to save taxpayers money--but I supported it for that reason alone.


----------



## groovetube

right I forgot Stephen Harper has a degree in economics


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> right I forgot Stephen Harper has a degree in economics


What's your degree, groove?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And does he do a background check?
> 
> Calandra is well known for his non-answers in the house, wasting time telling these long meandering stories of Papa and the pizzeria and Papa and the hair salon.
> 
> Well a little investigative reporting reveals that Calandra stole from his own family and placed "internet" charges on mama's credit card.
> 
> Wait until Harp Harper looks at his visa statement and finds all these charges to porn sites.
> First we had Del Mastro and now we have Calandra and who picked these scoundrels? Harp Harper did.
> 
> Paul Calandra court documents point to family dispute over money, assets


This report was just pure tabloid stuff that you would expect from the National Enquirer. 

It disgusted me!

What does Calandra's an episode that happened in his personal life have to do with his job in Parliament. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. Rien...

That you portray it at as stealing from his family is telling as even the courts didn't determine that, the charges were unproven.

McGregor has now proven himself to be a clown looking only to discredit people, that is his only intent. Why did we need to know this? Obviously because he wanted to discredit Calandra.

This is personal family in-fighting... like that is anything new and yet it is the stuff of the front page of the Citizen!!?? 

Absolutely disgusting and shoddy tabloid journalism, McGregor should be ashamed.

The people of Canada elected these people, Harper merely appointed them as PS... Do you really think he is going to dig into their personal lives before appointing them PS??!!

Ridiculous. Only the Gestapo like would do that.

Seriously, who looks for this kind of "dirt" as a real journalist if the don't have a bone to pick with someone or the party they represent?! I'll tell you... no one unless they are pure sleaze. 

This "story" absolutely disgusts me. It was completely not worth the paper it was written on.

No surprise you were the one to link to it skippy.


----------



## groovetube

Well Harper and co. Sure don't check up on much, *cough* Arthur Porter...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Well Harper and co. Sure don't check up on much, *cough* Arthur Porter...


Cough, Mac Harb. 

Mac Harb probe sees new details released by RCMP



> .... Horton says Harb is also refusing to speak to investigators.


Just a little more serious a case but it doesn't even register for those on the left.

I wonder why?


----------



## BigDL

Statistics Canada says 45,900 jobs lost in December, unemployment rate rises to 7.2 per cent | CTV News 

It's all Stephen Harper's fault. If Mr. Harper would only have gotten the doctorate...but nooooooooooo...he only has a masters degree...he's the Howard Wolowitz of economics. 









Mr. Harper's Government takes credit for good news so his government must accept the blame for bad news in the economy...but no Mr. Harper never accepts responsibility for anything and I mean anything. 

Mr. Harper does not really believe in Ministerial responsibility. tptptptp


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Cough, Mac Harb.
> 
> Mac Harb probe sees new details released by RCMP
> 
> 
> 
> Just a little more serious a case but it doesn't even register for those on the left.
> 
> I wonder why?


Curious, if they investigated mac harb, what would they have found?

I wouldn't have brought up Duffy, or even wright, as I doubt they had much previous that would have been a red flag.

As much as I despise duffy...


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Statistics Canada says 45,900 jobs lost in December, unemployment rate rises to 7.2 per cent | CTV News
> 
> It's all Stephen Harper's fault. If Mr. Harper would only have gotten the doctorate...but nooooooooooo...he only has a masters degree...he's the Howard Wolowitz of economics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Harper's Government takes credit for good news so his government must accept the blame for bad news in the economy...but no Mr. Harper never accepts responsibility for anything and I mean anything.
> 
> Mr. Harper does not really believe in Ministerial responsibility. tptptptp


It was a rogue staffer's fault


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Curious, *if they investigated mac harb, what would they have found?*
> 
> I wouldn't have brought up Duffy, or even wright, as I doubt they had much previous that would have been a red flag.
> 
> As much as I despise duffy...


What are you talking about goove?

It is not* if* the RCMP are investigating Harb. They *are* investigating Harb for mortgage fraud. Did you read the article?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> What are you talking about goove?
> 
> It is not* if* the RCMP are investigating Harb. They *are* investigating Harb for mortgage fraud. Did you read the article?


you insinuated that whomever appointed mac harb didn't vet him properly. At least that's what I got from your retort. I'm curious what they would have found.

Arthur porter, well, tv shows were able to dig up plenty on his history...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Statistics Canada says 45,900 jobs lost in December, unemployment rate rises to 7.2 per cent | CTV News
> 
> It's all Stephen Harper's fault. If Mr. Harper would only have gotten the doctorate...but nooooooooooo...he only has a masters degree...he's the Howard Wolowitz of economics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Harper's Government takes credit for good news so his government must accept the blame for bad news in the economy...but no Mr. Harper never accepts responsibility for anything and I mean anything.
> 
> Mr. Harper does not really believe in Ministerial responsibility. tptptptp


The weather in not the climate, I guess that point escapes you. 

Since the beginning of 2013, despite this loss (which is regrettable to say the least) in December, there have been 100,000 net new hobs created in 2013. 

Monthly economic results are much like the daily weather, they really don't have that much to do with the economy/climate as a whole. 

Except for those with a bone to pick or an agenda to pursue.

It certainly wasn't a good month, but on the whole it was a good year... I know that doesn't fit your political agenda but it is actually the truth.


----------



## groovetube

Personally I don't think it was that great a year. It seemed to tart of well, but it gradually went downhill bigtime.

Political agendas and biases aside, I really hope 2014 is a much better year.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The weather in not the climate, I guess that point escapes you.
> 
> Since the beginning of 2013, despite this loss (which is regrettable to say the least) in December, there have been 100,000 net new hobs created in 2013.
> 
> Monthly economic results are much like the daily weather, they really don't have that much to do with the economy/climate as a whole.
> 
> Except for those with a bone to pick or an agenda to pursue.
> 
> It certainly wasn't a good month, but on the whole it was a good year... I know that doesn't fit your political agenda but it is actually the truth.


And never mind that Canada can't overcome Ontario's stinker of an economic record--the rest of the country did very well.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> you insinuated that whomever appointed mac harb didn't vet him properly. At least that's what I got from your retort. I'm curious what they would have found.
> 
> Arthur porter, well, tv shows were able to dig up plenty on his history...


Thanks groove for making my point for me.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Thanks groove for making my point for me.


Boggles the mind.


----------



## groovetube

It's interesting to hear that the federal government is so ineffectual that it has little competence in the biggest region of the country.

A rather odd admission but there it is.


----------



## Macfury

Ontario seems bent on following its own path to economic obsolescence. They way it's handling the Ring of Fire portfolio and manhandling the energy portfolio is enough to cause businesses to scale back or leave outright. You can't help a province that does not want to be helped.


----------



## groovetube

Economic obsolescence!

Hilarious stuff!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Recently some members were all over ms. chow for her criticism of the Toronto Airport, one member making fun of her ancestry - well there have been a lot of complaints surfacing and consequently we get this:
> 
> Toronto Pearson airport boss admits 'we dropped the ball' - Toronto - CBC News


Chow still wrong: the airport admitted it could have done better at communicating. The delays were still necessary.


----------



## groovetube

I know how much you hate Olivia Chow, however I don't think delays because of bad weather was her issue. Chow said Pearson needed a better plan and better communications.

Sorry to burst your bubble!:lmao:


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It's interesting to hear that the federal government is so ineffectual that it has little competence in the biggest region of the country.
> 
> A rather odd admission but there it is.


Groove. We are a federation with much responsibility being of provincial jurisdiction and autonomy as is required by the Constitution...

No responsible provincial jurisdiction should blame their short falls on the federal government unless the said federal government has over stepped its bounds into provincial jurisdictional responsibility.

This is certainly not the case with the current government.

Thus your post is irrelevant at best (sorry that is IMO).

But just to correct you, as it irks me to no end when Ontario-centric (even Peter Mansbridge stated this untruth) people say this: "Ontario is the biggest region in Canada". 

*They are not!* They are simply the most populated region.

Please understand the difference.


----------



## groovetube

I think that's what I mean screature. We have by far the biggest population, and the biggest city, which I hear, has a pretty serious financial sector... 

I realize geographically, it's not the biggest.

So, let me get this straight. If the economy and jobs are roaring, Harpers doing good job! But if it isn't, well, that's the province's fault.

Hmmm.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawa hires ad firm for $22 million oilsands campaign | Toronto Star

Why isn't the oil sands companies paying for this??


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper has entered a pre-campaign cocoon, dodging controversy and responsibility

respect for taxpayers.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> respect for taxpayers.


Gettin' all the respect you deserve...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Ottawa hires ad firm for $22 million oilsands campaign | Toronto Star
> 
> Why isn't the oil sands companies paying for this??


Why does the government of Ontario run ads telling people when cherries are in season or to buy Ontario produce--or even to visit Ontario?


----------



## groovetube

I donno, I give up. why macfury?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I donno...



Good answer!


----------



## groovetube

well don't keep me in suspense... why?

Why does any province run tourism ads? To get to the other side of the road? My god there has to be an answer!!!


----------



## groovetube

Jesse Kline: Anti-marijuana arguments go up in smoke | National Post



> January 1 was more than a New Year celebration for Coloradans who enjoy the occasional toke. It was the first day retailers could legally sell marijuana for recreational use. Despite the high tax rate, many lined up to be some of the first to purchase marijuana in a strip mall, rather than a dark alley.
> 
> Washington state, which also legalized marijuana in a 2012 vote, will allow legal sales later this year. Not to be outdone, the legislature in New Hampshire — the state with the motto “Live Free or Die” on its licence plates — is also set to vote on a legalization bill. Activists in Alaska are on track to get a ballot initiative before the voters in that state, as well.
> 
> We would appear to be witnessing the beginning of the end of marijuana prohibition. But perhaps the best part is that proponents of the status quo seem to have completely run out of steam.
> 
> Washington Post columnist Ruth Marcus warns that pot should remain illegal because “the more widely available marijuana becomes, the more minors will use it.” Even though she admits that the next time she’s in Colorado, she’ll “check out some Bubba Kush.” And that she has done her “share of inhaling, though back in the age of bell-bottoms and polyester.” You know, back when pot was illegal and youngsters couldn’t get their hands on it.
> 
> Likewise, in the pages of the National Post, New York Times columnist David Brooks touts his stoner bona fides: “For a little while in my teenage years, my friends and I smoked marijuana.… I think those moments of uninhibited frolic deepened our friendships. But then we all sort of moved away from it.”
> 
> So Brooks had some fun, learned some valuable lessons and stopped doing drugs. No harm, no foul.
> 
> If he were a poor black kid from Washington, D.C. — a city where African Americans are eight times more likely to get arrested for marijuana possession than whites, despite using it at similar rates — things might have turned out much differently. Like millions before him, he could have gone to jail, lost his job and never had the chance to realize his potential. Indeed, despite having smoked pot (even though it was illegal) and grown up to be a successful columnist, Brooks is still an advocate of the status quo.
> 
> “Laws profoundly mould culture, so what sort of community do we want our laws to nurture?” he asks. “I’d say that in healthy societies government wants to subtly tip the scale to favour temperate, prudent, self-governing citizenship … government subtly encourages the highest pleasures, like enjoying the arts or being in nature, and discourages lesser pleasures, like being stoned.”
> 
> In this, Brooks is profoundly mistaken. Culture is not shaped from the top-down, but the bottom-up. Virtually every major legislative achievement — from civil rights to gay marriage — was precipitated by the people. The politicians had to be dragged kicking and screaming into modernity, and only did so once they realized the rest of society had already changed their minds. Drug reform is also being driven primarily by ballot initiatives, not governments.
> 
> *The idea that allowing adults to freely decide what substances to put in their own bodies is somehow an endorsement of said substances is also completely false. People who don’t want to smoke marijuana are not going to start, just because it is available in stores.*
> 
> If we see a drop in price, people who already consume marijuana will likely purchase more of it. It will also prevent millions of dollars from ending up in the pockets of gang members and other criminal organizations. Saying that legalization will lead to more people using the drug, however, is not supported by the facts.
> 
> *Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 and saw the number of people using them decline in the years that followed. The Netherlands has also allowed coffee shops to legally sell marijuana for decades and, according to the UN’s “World Drug Report,” a mere 5.4% of its population had smoked marijuana in the past year, compared to 12.6% in Canada and 24.1% in the U.S.*
> 
> If these are the best arguments the prohibitionist crowd can muster, then it truly is time to dismantle our outdated marijuana laws.


It would almost seem that those who wish to keep it illegal, support the gang bangers and more people using pot.

That at least makes as much sense if not more, as those saying people who support legalization endorse using it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> This report was just pure tabloid stuff that you would expect from the National Enquirer.
> 
> 
> 
> It disgusted me!
> 
> 
> 
> What does Calandra's an episode that happened in his personal life have to do with his job in Parliament. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. Rien...
> 
> 
> 
> That you portray it at as stealing from his family is telling as even the courts didn't determine that, the charges were unproven.
> 
> 
> 
> McGregor has now proven himself to be a clown looking only to discredit people, that is his only intent. Why did we need to know this? Obviously because he wanted to discredit Calandra.
> 
> 
> 
> This is personal family in-fighting... like that is anything new and yet it is the stuff of the front page of the Citizen!!??
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely disgusting and shoddy tabloid journalism, McGregor should be ashamed.
> 
> 
> 
> The people of Canada elected these people, Harper merely appointed them as PS... Do you really think he is going to dig into their personal lives before appointing them PS??!!
> 
> 
> 
> Ridiculous. Only the Gestapo like would do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, who looks for this kind of "dirt" as a real journalist if the don't have a bone to pick with someone or the party they represent?! I'll tell you... no one unless they are pure sleaze.
> 
> 
> 
> This "story" absolutely disgusts me. It was completely not worth the paper it was written on.
> 
> 
> 
> No surprise you were the one to link to it skippy.



Mcgregor is one of our finer journalists having helped to break the PMO scandal. If I had a shoddy background like Calandra I would not have ran knowing that the sordid details would become public. 

The disgusting thing for me was watching Calandra's unfit for Parliament performance in the fall. 

Bravo to the citizen for publishing the story and bravo to syndicating the article to share with the rest of the country.


----------



## Dr.G.

Baby boomers not to blame for youth unemployment - Canada - CBC News

An interesting article. I know that in my case I am being urged to stay on as a teleprofessor for as long as possible in that there are few who are ready/willing/able to assume my course load.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Mcgregor is one of our finer journalists* having helped to break the PMO scandal.* If I had a shoddy background like Calandra I would not have ran knowing that the sordid details would become public.
> 
> The disgusting thing for me was watching Calandra's unfit for Parliament performance in the fall.
> 
> Bravo to the citizen for publishing the story and bravo to syndicating the article to share with the rest of the country.



No he didn't you are wrong. For goodness sake man get your facts straight, it was Robert Fife who did that. McGregor was part of the duo involved with the robocalls reporting.

You choose to believe Calandra's sister's side of the story but the courts didn't, their claims were never proven. Typically you just choose to believe unproven claims to suit you agenda. Guilty until proven innocent, and it all happened 9 years ago and before he was an MP.

The private lives, of public figures, especially inner family squabbles *is* the stuff of the tabloids.

Shame on McGregor and the Citizen, it is just pure sleaze "journalism" that nothing to do with his position as an MP. But that is what you live for so I am not in the least bit surprised you would applaud it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> No he didn't you are wrong. For goodness sake man get your facts straight, it was Robert Fife who did that. McGregor was part of the duo involved with the robocalls reporting.


You're right on robocalls and I'm right that he did indeed help break the senate story. You are right that Fife initiated it.

Feel better? Don't tell me to get my facts straight when there was no problem with the way I said it. As for the rest of your response...it's as anticipated. Somewhat predictable. And given your predilection for labelling many here who don't agree with you "the left" I feel obligated to lump you in on "the right", and not the right I like. But's it's a perception thing.

For me, the Canadian press has partially restored my faith in our democracy. Lot's of work to do though. It's going to be a very busy 2014 and 2015.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You're right on robocalls and I'm right that he did indeed help break the senate story. You are right that Fife initiated it.
> 
> Feel better? *Don't tell me to get my facts straight when there was no problem with the way I said it.* As for the rest of your response...it's as anticipated. Somewhat predictable.* And given your predilection for labelling many here *who don't agree with you "the left" I feel obligated to lump you in on "the right", and not the right I like. But's it's a perception thing.
> 
> For me, the Canadian press has partially restored my faith in our democracy. Lot's of work to do though. It's going to be a very busy 2014 and 2015.


Show me where? All he did was comment on reports by the RCMP that every other journalist was reporting on he did zero investigation on his own involving the Senate. It was all CTV and Robert Fife.

Labelling? What left vs. right? Everyone here does that, you being among the worst offenders so don't try and pretend you speak from some "high ground" on such matters. Seriously.

You come here consistently doing nothing other than linking (no value added comments) to unsubstantiated clams so I am just calling it like I see it.

Where have you ever been constructive and help to add to a positive discourse to *any* thread here? 

All I see is you bitching, whining, moaning and using disparaging comments, that got you banned in your previous incarnation as jimbo. I have yet to see where you are constructive anywhere.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Show me where? It was all CTV and Robert Fife.
> 
> Labelling? What left vs. right? Everyone here does that, you being among the worst offenders so don't try and pretend you speak from some "high ground" on such matters. Seriously.
> 
> You come here consistently doing nothing other than linking (no value added comments) to unsubstantiated clams so I am just calling it like I see it.
> 
> Where are you ever been constructive and help to add to a positive discourse? I have yet to see it.


Seriously you don't think McGregor made a contribution to unravelling the PMO scandal? Fine.

I speak from no high ground. I try not to label people right/left. I do critique the current band of Cons though. I'm not the only one. I think they're dangerous quite frankly.

I post stuff because I believe that the links I provide are worth a look. Posting here also provides me with a nice chronology of events. A benefit I never expected but it's all here.

No I'm just a small "l" liberal who has a passion for believing that as a society we should strive to deliver equality of opportunity for as many people as possible. I believe government intervention is required to bring this about.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Posting here also provides me with a nice chronology of events. A benefit I never expected but it's all here..


Since your posts exactly match the capturing of articles by a particular news aggregator, it's not as if though you're even providing a unique chronology by copying these links here.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Since your posts exactly match the capturing of articles by a particular news aggregator, it's not as if though you're even providing a unique chronology by copying these links here.


So don't read them.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Seriously you don't think McGregor made a contribution to unravelling the PMO scandal? Fine.
> 
> I speak from no high ground. *I try not to label people right/left.* I do critique the current band of Cons though. I'm not the only one. I think they're dangerous quite frankly.
> 
> I post stuff because I believe that the links I provide are worth a look. Posting here also provides me with a nice chronology of events. A benefit I never expected but it's all here.
> 
> No I'm just a small "l" liberal who has a passion for believing that as a society we should strive to deliver equality of opportunity for as many people as possible. I believe government intervention is required to bring this about.


That is really rich. :lmao:


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Ottawa hires ad firm for $22 million oilsands campaign | Toronto Star
> 
> Why isn't the oil sands companies paying for this??


To be fair the Harper Conservative did outline in the budget, they intended to spend a million dollars a month, until the next election, to promote the "Big Oil and Gas" internationally.

It's a fair "quid pro quo" as the Big Oil and Gas sponsors our National History Museum to the delight of Harper's view of our Country's 19th century military conquest and domination starting with the war of 1812, some 50 years before we even thought of being one nation from sea to sea to sea.

Dispose of the facts just make up the myths, especially when Harper's BIG LIE fits the Conservative's world view.

Federal programs and research facilities that have been shut down or had their funding reduced - the fifth estate - CBC News










the fifth estate - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> That is really rich. :lmao:


Laugh as you wish. But I'm not the only socially liberal, fiscal conservative in the country.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Federal programs and research facilities that have been shut down or had their funding reduced - the fifth estate - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the fifth estate - CBC News


This is the only reason I still have any patience with them! Peel that stinking onion to the core! Now if they could only do more to undermine government unions I would campaign door to door for them.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

That was a brilliant Fifth Estate last night. Should be required viewing for all.





BigDL said:


> To be fair the Harper Conservative did outline in the budget, they intended to spend a million dollars a month, until the next election, to promote the "Big Oil and Gas" internationally.
> 
> It's a fair "quid pro quo" as the Big Oil and Gas sponsors our National History Museum to the delight of Harper's view of our Country's 19th century military conquest and domination starting with the war of 1812, some 50 years before we even thought of being one nation from sea to sea to sea.
> 
> Dispose of the facts just make up the myths, especially when Harper's BIG LIE fits the Conservative's world view.
> 
> Federal programs and research facilities that have been shut down or had their funding reduced - the fifth estate - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the fifth estate - CBC News


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So don't read them.


So why shouldn't he read them?

They are all here all the time provided by you, the only chronology it provides is a chronology of what you see as being significant, filtered through your far from unbiased eyes. 

What you "add" is easily available in many other places. 

You provide nothing unique here with your incessant (no value added linking) other than having a place to consolidate your personal biases and proclivities when reading the media.

Why not start a blog?

That would at least be original to some degree.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Laugh as you wish. But I'm not the only socially liberal, fiscal conservative in the country.


"Fiscally conservative," yet none of the spending or program cuts identified by the Firth Estate meet with your approval.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Laugh as you wish. But I'm not the only socially liberal, fiscal conservative in the country.


You are the purple (combination of socially red and fiscally blue) or the other rarer variant (social blue and fiscally red) voter that the Harper Conservative's so desire these citizens votes for the Conservative's (Harper's) agenda.

They're not enough socially blue and fiscally blue, voters in this country to win a first past the post majority government.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> So why shouldn't he read them?
> 
> They are all here all the time provided by you, the only chronology it provides is a chronology of what you see as being significant, filtered through your far from unbiased eyes.
> 
> What you "add" is easily available in many other places.
> 
> You provide nothing unique here with your incessant (no value added linking) other than having a place to consolidate your personal biases and proclivities when reading the media.
> 
> Why not start a blog?
> 
> That would at least be original to some degree.


I have received complements for links I have provided in this thread. Value for others but no value for you. Simple answer like don't read the links - don't read my posts.

Why do you need to be such a judge? The nothing unique comment is a bit bizarre.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> You are the purple (combination of socially red and fiscally blue) or the other rarer variant (social blue and fiscally red) voter that the Harper Conservative's so desire these citizens votes for the Conservative's (Harper's) agenda.
> 
> They're not enough socially blue and fiscally blue, voters in this country to win a first past the post majority government.


To be fair I'm strongly driven by green convictions too and that's where I intersect with quite a few former Con supporters. When you mix green, red and blue - isn't it kind of brown? The brown party!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I have received complements for links I have provided in this thread. Value for others but no value for you. Simple answer like don't read the links - don't read my posts.
> 
> Why do you need to be such a judge? The nothing unique comment is a bit bizarre.


Do you mean compliment? If so, you could receive many more by linking them to the same online news aggregator you use. Bravo, Jimbo!!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The brown party!


I guess that's where your fecal alter ego comes in. A symbol of the "Brown Party"!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> "Fiscally conservative," yet none of the spending or program cuts identified by the Firth Estate meet with your approval.


How do you know? None?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How do you know? None?


Go for it. Let us know which ones were good cuts.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Do you mean compliment? If so, you could receive many more by linking them to the same online news aggregator you use. Bravo, Jimbo!!


I don't comment on typo spelling stuff but I am sensitive to making that kind of error. Happens. Thanks.


----------



## groovetube

Skippy you've made inexcusable error of posting links not approved by Canada's new government.

There are re-education camps in your future!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Skippy you've made inexcusable error of posting links not approved by Canada's new government.
> 
> There are re-education camps in your future!


You mean the "Harper Government" and their "generous" supporters.


----------



## groovetube

Hard to keep track of what they're branding themselves as these days.

I guess I don't subscibe to that 'aggregator' then.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Go for it. Let us know which ones were good cuts.


I could but I'm still waiting for your critique from November.



Macfury said:


> So many pathetic assumptions on Leach's part, where does one begin tearing him apart?


I'm still waiting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Hard to keep track of what they're branding themselves as these days.
> 
> I guess I don't subscibe to that 'aggregator' then.


I think he means "JNN".


----------



## i-rui

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I post stuff because I believe that the links I provide are worth a look. Posting here also provides me with a nice chronology of events. A benefit I never expected but it's all here.


i appreciate you posting the links, please continue to do so.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i appreciate you posting the links, please continue to do so.


I have no problem with his posting the links so long as he something to say about them that is unique to him otherwise it is pure laziness and boring IMO...

I have already read them, as so have most informed Canadians and again it is just boring to be regurgitated ad nauseam.

I'm not surprised i-rui that you would appreciate skippy's no value added posts as they fit right within your wheel house.

However, I'm surprised that you have anything to learn from skippy's redundant posts. 

I thought you were capable of keeping yourself informed without skippy's help.


----------



## groovetube

holy jeez. If we spent more time addressing the content of links posted rather than whether or not someone gave enough opinion or had the right link, this would all be a bit more interesting.

chill and cheers.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> I have no problem with his posting the links so long as he something to say about them that is unique to him otherwise it is pure laziness and boring IMO...


he does comment on the links he posts. he isn't plagiarizing anyone (as far as i know) so his comments *are* unique. the fact that his comments are usually in line with the sentiment of the articles he links isn't really surprising since that is part of the reason he wants to share them.



screature said:


> I'm not surprised i-rui that you would appreciate skippy's no value added posts as they fit right within your wheel house.


i'm not surprised you don't appreciate them since they point out the many flaws with the government you so vehemently defend and support.



screature said:


> However, I'm surprised that you have anything to learn from skippy's redundant posts.
> 
> I thought you were capable of keeping yourself informed without skippy's help.


i try my best to keep myself informed, but there is some days where i'm busy and others days where the sheer deluge of this government's misdeeds are hard to keep track of, so yes i don't mind there being another source where i can keep track of things that slip under my radar.

if anyone is really upset by his posts i'd suggest putting him on your ignore list. IMO this is a more considerate solution than reducing this thread into a back and forth on if someone has a right to post links in the thread.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> I have no problem with his posting the links so long as he something to say about them that is unique to him otherwise it is pure laziness and boring IMO...
> 
> 
> 
> I have already read them, as so have most informed Canadians and again it is just boring to be regurgitated ad nauseam.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised i-rui that you would appreciate skippy's no value added posts as they fit right within your wheel house.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I'm surprised that you have anything to learn from skippy's redundant posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were capable of keeping yourself informed without skippy's help.



You know what I find of zero value are the Orwellian Harper govt posts that I have already read and that are oh so predictable. But hey I expect them. 


They usually say something to the effect that they are respecting tax payer dollars and that they have increased funding for whatever the given problem is. And the Harper govt is promoting and protecting the attacked party's interests. Total BS.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Also love the "value add" term in this Mac forum. Poetic business jargon now typical Harper govt speak. 

Let's consult with stake holders in an effort to level the playing field and optimize consumer experience for the benefit of all Canadians and Canadiens from coast to coast to coast. Our brand is strong!


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i appreciate you posting the links, please continue to do so.


Gat a news aggregator and set your preferences--nothing will slip by you ever again. No need to get your aggregated news second hand!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Gat a news aggregator and set your preferences--nothing will slip by you ever again. No need to get your aggregted news second hand!



The typos the typos.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The typos the typos.


The glasses the glasses!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The glasses the glasses!


Who stole your glasses?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> Who stole your glasses?



Who let the dogs out?


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Who let the dogs out?


I did. Sorry. Still, they are all Canadian dogs.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> holy jeez. If we spent more time addressing the content of links posted rather than whether or not someone gave enough opinion or had the right link, this would all be a bit more interesting.
> 
> chill and cheers.


I recall a time a couple of years ago when the bullying started over the linking of information and opinion.

It is reflected here, certain posters are not able to refute or rebut the information or opinion offered up, so these posters, attack the source of the link or dismiss the material in the link as being of an unworthy of consideration.

I have deemed some posters here unworthy of consideration and have added those poster to an ignore list. I find my life has improved greatly because of this small effort.

I therefore strongly suggest that solution for the griping, snarly, malcontents is to create an ignore list for themselves.

If myself (who hardly posts here any longer) or gt, skippy or even i-rui are vexing your peace and disturbing your world view, ignore shall provide minimal information on the posters that set you off.

So please debate the idea, or please stop attacking the posters personally.

Personal attacks, demonstrate not possessing the wit nor wisdom to debate the idea or concept and adds nothing. 

If ignore is not an option and all "you got" is an opinion, then state the opinion once then STFU and move on. 

Ignore really works when posts are not reflected by use of the quote function and can be seen in spite of the ignore function.

I do enjoy for the most part skippy's links and have supported his right to post as he wishes. It is one of the reasons I still visit here.

I support others right to post as they wish, ignore list is a useful tool to that end and enhances my enjoyment of this site.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

^ Agreed. I don't use ignore but I know I have the option. The only posts that bother me are the ones asking for apologies, and challenging members to duels. Complete BS that shouldn't exist at all.


----------



## kps

BigDL, I have yet to see a poster on here that I'd put on ignore.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> ^ Agreed. I don't use ignore but I know I have the option. The only posts that bother me are the ones asking for apologies, and challenging members to duels. Complete BS that shouldn't exist at all.


Not to mention your alter ego's postings of big steaming piles, the only poster offensive enough to trigger the ignore feature for me.


----------



## Rps

Hello all. I am designing an ESL lesson on the Government of Canada. The gist is to list in order the positions from Queen to Councillor.
Here is my attempt, and I am having difficulty with some position, so...
1. Queen
2 Governor General
3 Prime Minister
4 M.P.
5. Lieutenant Governor
6. Premier
7. M.P.P
8. Mayor
9. Councillor

So the question is, is an M.P. Of a higher rank than a Premier or the Lt Gov etc... Such as, is the Lt Gov higher in rank than the Premier and is an M.P a higher rank than a Mayor or M.P.P. Any help would be appreciated, thanx. Rp


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Hello all. I am designing an ESL lesson on the Government of Canada. The gist is to list in order the positions from Queen to Councillor.
> Here is my attempt, and I am having difficulty with some position, so...
> 1. Queen
> 2 Governor General
> 3 Prime Minister
> 4 M.P.
> 5. Lieutenant Governor
> 6. Premier
> 7. M.P.P
> 8. Mayor
> 9. Councillor
> 
> So the question is, is an M.P. Of a higher rank than a Premier or the Lt Gov etc... Such as, is the Lt Gov higher in rank than the Premier and is an M.P a higher rank than a Mayor or M.P.P. Any help would be appreciated, thanx. Rp


Rps it really isn't so much about rank because what you refer to is not cross jurisdictional. An MP has no more "power" relative to his jurisdiction (federal) than an MPP has relative to his jurisdiction (provincial).

It is a case of apples and oranges and strictly speaking the twains do not meet.

So IMO the questionnaire is flawed to being with because there are 3 jurisdictional powers that are really quite separate in many/most ways. It is just the nature of our political system based on the fact that we are a federation.


----------



## Rps

So, for the most part, then, the order is correct, but these are discreet areas of authority.


----------



## screature

Just to add, the only way that such a comparison could be made would is if it was based on the number of Canadians that each jurisdiction's laws apply to. 

So in that case it would be the feds on top, the provinces second and the municipalities third (for the most part except where certain municipalities populations actually out number the population of a province or territory.)

But the feds cannot make law's on matters that are of provincial jurisdiction, the provinces on matters of municipal jurisdiction and so on.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> So, for the most part, then, the order is correct, but these are discreet areas of authority.


Not entirely in terms of legislate power as the Queen, Governor General and Lieutenant Governor have no real legislative power, in practice they are just essentially figure heads with little actual power. Going back one hundred years or more it would be more true but not in practice today.


----------



## Macfury

Even beyond that, the Mayor of Vancouver may have much more power than the premiere of PEI.


----------



## Rps

Screature there must be some crossover, where does the OMB fit in, Provincial or Municipal?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Screature there must be some crossover, where does the OMB fit in, Provincial or Municipal?


The OMB is provincial, but obviously has final jurisdiction only over some disputed aspects of planning.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Even beyond that, the Mayor of Vancouver may have much more power than the premiere of PEI.


Macfury, if I may, I think the Mayor of Vancouver might have more , in the sense of dollars budgeted , than the Premier of PEI, but I don't think power is the right word here, nor is responsibility.......


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I do enjoy for the most part skippy's links and have supported his right to post as he wishes.


I've never met someone so sensitive about the possibility of being bullied, BigDL. A Canadian maple leaf drops from the trees in the fall, and I expect you'd feel that the leaf was bullying you.

And seriously, if someone is so unfamiliar with the vast workings of the Internet that they can't filter news link to their preferences, then obviously jimbo performs an important function for a few of you.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature there must be some crossover, where does the OMB fit in, Provincial or Municipal?


IMO it is Provincial. I agree in the area of provincial vs. municipal jurisdiction there is some cross over but only to the extent that it is a given province that sets out the division of powers between the province and the municipalities.

When it comes to our federation, it is the Constitution that sets the rules for the divisions of power (jurisdiction) between the provinces and the Crown. There is certainly much less grey area there.

That being said all nations are in a constant state of flux in terms of agreed upon jurisdiction and power, that is what keeps the higher level Courts working all the time. 

I''m just suggesting that your listing is in reality overly simplistic in terms of a modern Canada.


----------



## Macfury

The problem I have with such a list is that it implies a power structure. An Ontario MP has no power over a provincial MPP, for example, just a different jurisdiction of responsibility. The Queen could not order a mayor to do one thing or another, because there is no continuity of the implied power chain you're creating.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Macfury, if I may, I think the Mayor of Vancouver might have more , in the sense of dollars budgeted , than the Premier of PEI, *but I don't think power is the right word here, nor is responsibility.*......



But then that begs the question. Upon what criteria do you establish such a "ranking"?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The problem I have with such a list is that it implies a power structure. An Ontario MP has no power over a provincial MPP, for example, just a different jurisdiction of responsibility. The Queen could not order a mayor to do one thing or another, because there is no continuity of the implied power chain you're creating.


I agree.


----------



## Rps

That is an interesting question Screature, one I don't think I have an answer for as yet. My lesson was meant to highlight the re levels and who is within the levels. But the concept of ranking almost always seems to arise in class. I think you are right, and maybe it is best served, if I just list out the positions as being attached to the whole but in 3 separate jurisdictions...... It does provide for interesting discussion though don't you think?

Also, and I would like your view on this, I have often thought that if the BNA was to have been written today if the Federal portion would have been made Provincial and the Provincial would have been Provincial..... It seems to me that this is the biggest complaint from the Premiers that the Feds are treading on their natural areas to govern.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Also, and I would like your view on this, I have often thought that if the BNA was to have been written today if the Federal portion would have been made Provincial and the Provincial would have been Provincial..... It seems to me that this is the biggest complaint from the Premiers that the Feds are treading on their natural areas to govern.


I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but it appears to me that the provinces crave only those responsibilities where they believe they could come out ahead financially by taking over both a budget and a responsibility simultaneously.


----------



## Rps

On the contrary I always welcome your opinion, and yes self-interest seems to be the root, or in some areas route of all evil.




Macfury said:


> The OMB is provincial, but obviously has final jurisdiction only over some disputed aspects of planning.





Macfury said:


> I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but it appears to me that the provinces crave only those responsibilities where they believe they could come out ahead financially by taking over both a budget and a responsibility simultaneously.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> That is an interesting question Screature, one I don't think I have an answer for as yet. My lesson was meant to highlight the re levels and who is within the levels. But the concept of ranking almost always seems to arise in class. I think you are right, and *maybe it is best served, if I just list out the positions as being attached to the whole but in 3 separate jurisdictions...... It does provide for interesting discussion though don't you think?*
> 
> Also, and I would like your view on this, I have often thought that if the BNA was to have been written today if the Federal portion would have been made Provincial and the Provincial would have been Provincial..... *It seems to me that this is the biggest complaint from the Premiers that the Feds are treading on their natural areas to govern.*


I agree on both accounts.

The complexity of government in Canada these days is astounding especially when you consider a Deputy Minister (a bureaucrat) can actually make more money than the Minister (an elected official) and almost definitely outlive the Minister in terms of longevity of position. So who holds the real power?

Absolutely. It has been the case since the beginning of Confederation, It is a constant struggle just look at Lougheed vs. Trudeau in the end Lougheed won. A great victory IMO.

I believe that Federal powers should be more specific/narrower than they are now and have been. Who else knows the needs of their region better than those living there?

It is an old adage that none-the-less I still believe to be true:

"All politics is local".

It is an oversimplification yes, but there is a great deal of truth in the statement.

BTW I always enjoy your questions and comments Rps, even though of course I don't necessarily always agree with them.

To me they seem to be coming from a truly thoughtful (one who thinks before they speak) person.


----------



## Rps

Thanks Screature for your thoughts. I wonder if the U.S. Fed/State relationship is like ours. They seem to be very aware of State Rights, where we seem to be laid back in that area ... By Federal design do you think?


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Thanks Screature for your thoughts. I wonder if the U.S. Fed/State relationship is like ours. They seem to be very aware of State Rights, where we seem to be laid back in that area ... By Federal design do you think?


I'm really not very conversant on US politics at all... MF would most likely have a better answer than me.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Thanks Screature for your thoughts. I wonder if the U.S. Fed/State relationship is like ours. They seem to be very aware of State Rights, where we seem to be laid back in that area ... By Federal design do you think?


State rights were at the core of the US Constitution. However, the U.S. Supreme Court and the Federal Government itself continue to batter away at this construct, creating a monolithic beast with its head in Washington, and its nether regions hanging over the 50. They feed cash to the beast, then fight over the coins they can find in its feces. Sometimes, if they're lucky, an extra large turd lands on them, and they find more coins than they fed it that year.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> State rights were at the core of the US Constitution. However, the U.S. Supreme Court and the Federal Government itself continue to batter away at this construct, creating a monolithic beast with its head in Washington, and its nether regions hanging over the 50. They feed cash to the beast, then fight over the coins they can find in its feces. Sometimes, if they're lucky, an extra large turd lands on them, and they find more coins than they fed it that year.


We'll said, I think:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

rps, even the creation of the Interstate Highway System required Eisenhower to pull some stunts, such as claiming the roads were necessary for defense against Soviet Missile strikes. The Interstate Commerce clause has been so horribly abused that almost any issue is considered a matter of interstate commerce. It was a battle back then. 

Today, most of the erosion of states rights involve a too-powerful Washington handing out large grants to those states who voluntarily relinquish de facto control to the Feds. An example would be the creation of some sort of central education standard, to which a state must adhere in order to receive a grant. 

The states are free to do as they wish, but at the cost of handing their money to the other states who kowtow to the feds.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> Hello all. I am designing an ESL lesson on the Government of Canada. The gist is to list in order the positions from Queen to Councillor.
> Here is my attempt, and I am having difficulty with some position, so...
> 1. Queen
> 2 Governor General
> 3 Prime Minister
> 4 M.P.
> 5. Lieutenant Governor
> 6. Premier
> 7. M.P.P
> 8. Mayor
> 9. Councillor
> 
> So the question is, is an M.P. Of a higher rank than a Premier or the Lt Gov etc... Such as, is the Lt Gov higher in rank than the Premier and is an M.P a higher rank than a Mayor or M.P.P. Any help would be appreciated, thanx. Rp


I would suggest that the Governance of Canada and the Governance of the Provinces are equal and should form two separate lists.

Municipalities should be listed under the Provinces not the Federal Government.

The both lists should start with the Queen followed the Queen's representative.

There is an old saw that goes that the UN wanted reports on the Elephant. 

India entitled their report "The Elephant for Work and Fertilization in Agriculture;"

Great Britain entitled their report "The Elephant a Symbol of Power;"

The USA entitled their report "Building a Bigger and Better Elephant;"

In Canada the report was entitled "The Elephant a Federal or Provincial Responsibility."

Good luck with your project.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> BigDL, I have yet to see a poster on here that I'd put on ignore.


I respect your position but I see once again our opinions are divergent.

I can disagree with you without being disagreeable. 

I do appreciate you express your opinion(s) and defending your position(s) but when it becomes apparent people disagree with your view(s) you move on and you wish folks well with their deliberations. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, why are you applauding yourself?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> BigDL, why are you applauding yourself?


MacFury, why are you asking?


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy, why are you asking Mcfury?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> BigDL, why are you applauding yourself?


guessing boredom? :clap:


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> mrjimmy, why are you asking Mcfury?


Who's McFury? MacFury's Irish cousin?


----------



## Macfury

Who's this jimmy who keep popping in here?


----------



## groovetube

it's jimmy page!!

sorry mrjimmy, I've outted you.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Who's this jimmy who keep popping in here?


Tell you what, you expose yourself first then I'll answer that question.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> it's jimmy page!!
> 
> sorry mrjimmy, I've putted you.


Man, give a guy a glass of wine and he falls apart like a two dollar suitcase in a rainstorm!


----------



## groovetube

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

I can't tell if he's putted you or outed you...


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I can't tell if he's putted you or outed you...


Ask your Irish cousin.


----------



## i-rui

mrjimmy said:


> Who's McFury? MacFury's Irish cousin?


i'm pretty sure it's a frozen desert at mcdonald's....


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i'm pretty sure it's a frozen desert at mcdonald's....


mind... blown.


----------



## Macfury

I prefer Arctic Orange myself.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I prefer Arctic Orange myself.


Y E S P L E A S E!!!! I loved that one and Harvey's Chocolate shakes......


----------



## Macfury

Two years ago, McDonalds in Toronto brought back the Shamrock Shake at a few locations. It's no Arctic Orange, but I jumped for it.


----------



## i-rui

egg nog & banana were my favourites.


----------



## FeXL

On the CSA.

Lobbying Lobbyists



> The CSA Group is crammed with contradictions. It is a public regulator without being public, a de-facto legislative committee through ninety years of precedent while denying that it has a role in government, it reports to the Minister of Industry without reporting to the Minister of Industry, its production is the rule of law without being acknowledged as such, its committees are all unpaid volunteers while somehow being the most expensive volunteers the world has ever seen. The CSA is merely a not-for-profit entity, a humble functionary in voluntary service to the public good. Yet the CSA is also a multinational corporation with dozens of subsidiaries, over one thousand, six hundred staff, thirty-six offices around the world and over a quarter billion dollars in annual revenue.


Lots here I didn't know about the CSA...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> On the CSA.


The CSA has no power to make government accept a standard. It creates standards that governments choose to adopt. They could choose to adopt someone else's standard as well, but often the CSA is first in line.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Unique comment*

I find this disturbing. CON MP's private bill - witch hunting 

Tory MP's proposed bill likened to witch hunt | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I find this disturbing. CON MP's private bill - witch hunting
> 
> Tory MP's proposed bill likened to witch hunt | Toronto Star





> While private member’s bills rarely become law, Bill C-520 has the blessing of the Prime Minister’s Office.


Oh I bet it does! 

These cons are shameless.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Oh I bet it does!
> 
> These cons are shameless.


I would think this would be unconstitutional.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I find this disturbing. CON MP's private bill - witch hunting
> 
> Tory MP's proposed bill likened to witch hunt | Toronto Star


We need transparency--but too much transparency is a bad thing when it doesn't serve the liberal agenda I guess.


----------



## groovetube

and the liberal agenda, is to not investigate if said person engaged in 'partisan activities' in the past.

Man, that's quite an agenda! :clap:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> and the liberal agenda, is to not investigate if said person engaged in 'partisan activities' in the past.
> 
> Man, that's quite an agenda! :clap:



I would certainly agree that at the present they would not want to "out" their own partisans.


----------



## groovetube

you'll have to try a little harder than that! :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

“The last temptation is the greatest treason:
To do the right deed for the wrong reason.”

-T.S. Eliot, Murder in the Cathedral


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I find this disturbing. CON MP's private bill - witch hunting
> 
> Tory MP's proposed bill likened to witch hunt | Toronto Star



Anyone who is opposed to this bill needs to be looked at with suspicion. This is exactly the kind of transparency we should have in Ottawa. The Conservatives should be applauded for introducing it.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> Anyone who is opposed to this bill needs to be looked at with suspicion. This is exactly the kind of transparency we should have in Ottawa. The Conservatives should be applauded for introducing it.


Yes indeed. It would stop partisan appointments by any party.


----------



## i-rui

here's the problem with the bill:



> “The alleged inappropriate behavior is not defined by the statute,” Cameron said.
> “Somebody could be the subject of one of these examinations . . . on the basis that they have done something that is ‘partisan,’ but there is no definition anywhere in the legislation that explains what the partisan activity is that will attract consequences. That’s a serious problem.”
> The University of Ottawa’s dean of law, however, said the lack of explicit penalties means the legislation amounts to little more than window dressing.
> “It only demands that you disclose paid jobs that you would have done in the past, and it does not prevent you applying or being an agent of any way,” said Nathalie Des Rosiers.
> “I don’t think it does very much . . . . It’s hard to know exactly, outside of embarrassment, what the point of this legislation is.”


so it doesn't define what is "partisan" and it doesn't really do anything if they were "partisan". Does working for one group or another make one "partisan"? 

Does having worked for the oil industry automatically make someone simpatico to that cause, and not "neutral"? Does being a stake holder in an energy company taint their judgment on laws passed that would affect that sector?

I'd be interested to see if the conservatives would be so eager to pen a bill that looked into that. I'd love to see how many conservative MPs would be exposed to having business interests with the energy industry. I'm guessing nearly all, but a bIll to confirm that would certainly be in line with what's being proposed.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Does having worked for the oil industry automatically make someone simpatico to that cause, and not "neutral"? Does being a stake holder in an energy company taint their judgment on laws passed that would affect that sector?


Yes!


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Anyone who is opposed to this bill needs to be looked at with suspicion. This is exactly the kind of transparency we should have in Ottawa. The Conservatives should be applauded for introducing it.


Ridiculous. This bill is no more than some useless eye candy. Applauded perhaps by, partisans imo, ironically.



i-rui said:


> here's the problem with the bill:
> 
> so it doesn't define what is "partisan" and it doesn't really do anything if they were "partisan". Does working for one group or another make one "partisan"?
> 
> Does having worked for the oil industry automatically make someone simpatico to that cause, and not "neutral"? Does being a stake holder in an energy company taint their judgment on laws passed that would affect that sector?
> 
> I'd be interested to see if the conservatives would be so eager to pen a bill that looked into that. I'd love to see how many conservative MPs would be exposed to having business interests with the energy industry. I'm guessing nearly all, but a bIll to confirm that would certainly be in line with what's being proposed.


Exactly.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> I'd love to see how many conservative MPs would be exposed to having business interests with the energy industry. I'm guessing nearly all, but a bIll to confirm that would certainly be in line with what's being proposed.


"Nearly all" Canadians with any sort of investment portfolio have "business interests" with the energy industry, whether they are personally aware of it or not.


----------



## i-rui

yes, and nearly all Canadians would have some kind of partisan lean to one party or ideology, whether they are personally aware of it or not.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Yes!


glad you agree! if this proposed bill passes i'd love to see transparency on all issues across the board. Bill Maher has suggested that US politicians should where sponsor patches just like nascar drivers. I'd be for the same thing in Canada.


----------



## groovetube

I saw that as well. Fantastic idea, and to me, would show far more transparency to Canadians than this stupid bill would, regardless of political stripe.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> glad you agree! if this proposed bill passes i'd love to see transparency on all issues across the board. Bill Maher has suggested that US politicians should where sponsor patches just like nascar drivers. I'd be for the same thing in Canada.


The difference is, in the US politicians ARE directly sponsored. In Canada, they are not.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> The difference is, in the US politicians ARE directly sponsored. In Canada, they are not.


maybe not in (legal) election contributions, but there are certainly financial links that can be drawn. my point with this proposed bill is that just as someone can uncover "partisan" links in someone's past, finding certain corporate links would be just as easy.

if this is how we're going to define "transparency" then i don't have a huge problem with it, but only if it's across the board and covers all potential things that can influence politics. it has to cut both ways.


----------



## groovetube

Certainly, making all past (or present) links with corporate etc. front and centre to voters would make things more transparent.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Oh I bet it does!
> 
> These cons are shameless.


Not only is this bunch shameless. Stephen Harper is a Chicken $#!† for not proposing as a government bill the legislation he wishes to be put forward.

The old sad saw "if you do not agree, you something to hide" rates right up there with Vic Towes' "...if your not with us you're with the child pornographers." 

What a sad bunch. Rather than articulate a cogent argument, the old "try to stifle debate" trick. Same old, same old. It's to be expected, from that mindset, I suppose.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Not only is this bunch shameless. Stephen Harper is a Chicken $#!† for not proposing as a government bill the legislation he wishes to be put forward.
> 
> The old sad saw "if you do not agree, you something to hide" rates right up there with Vic Towes' "...if your not with us you're with the child pornographers."
> 
> What a sad bunch. Rather than articulate a cogent argument, the old "try to stifle debate" trick. Same old, same old. It's to be expected, from that mindset, I suppose.


Not half as sad as the grammar in your post. Good grief.


----------



## groovetube

Taxpayers to pay travel costs for business travellers on Harper's Mideast trip | CTV News

Can someone explain why there's such a large delegation that taxpayers are picking the tab up for travel expenses?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Taxpayers to pay travel costs for business travellers on Harper's Mideast trip | CTV News
> 
> Can someone explain why there's such a large delegation that taxpayers are picking the tab up for travel expenses?


How does this trip differ from the normal protocol for such business/economic delegations that it would be worth mentioning, groovetube?


----------



## groovetube

I believe, I've already asked the same question.


----------



## Macfury

Groovetube awakens in the morning to see the sun rise in the sky. He posts on EhMac:

"Saw the sun rise in the sky. Movement seemed to follow a pattern. Made me suspicious. Is there something different about it? I donno."


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Taxpayers to pay travel costs for business travellers on Harper's Mideast trip | CTV News
> 
> Can someone explain why there's such a large delegation that taxpayers are picking the tab up for travel expenses?





Macfury said:


> How does this trip differ from the normal protocol for such business/economic delegations that it would be worth mentioning, groovetube?





groovetube said:


> I believe, I've already asked the same question.


The report is incomplete IMO because it makes no mention of what previous governments have done. So do we really have any way of knowing that this is out of the norm for such governmental trips?

I suspect it is not.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The report is incomplete IMO because it makes no mention of what previous governments have done. So do we really have any way of knowing that this is out of the norm for such governmental trips?
> 
> I suspect it is not.


The only difference is that the Chretien government would have paid the business delegation as consultants.


----------



## groovetube

Without any real comparisons or facts, all of this is useless.

Does this mean you conservatives are totally fine with a reported 150+ getting all their expenses paid on this trip?

I did hear a lot of chatter about the liberal junkets.


----------



## Dr.G.

.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Without any real comparisons or facts, all of this is useless.
> 
> Does this mean you conservatives are totally fine with a reported 150+ getting all their expenses paid on this trip?
> 
> I did hear a lot of chatter about the liberal junkets.


You post a link without even understanding it. Don't expect any effort from others in engaging with you on it.

"Prove to me this is normal" has to be some of the most lazy-ass posting on EhMac. Show us where you've gotten off your ass to show that it's abnormal and maybe you'll earn a little respect.


----------



## groovetube

The truth is macfury, you don't want to touch this one with a ten foot pole. So you give me this crap out a lazy post.speaking of lazy.. I asked a good question, because I heard endless whinging about the liberal junkets, and yet when I dare to question the conservative one. I'm treated to the macfury deflections, and, the one that makes me chuckle, is the excuse that well, the wiberals did it too!

Really! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> .


Indeed!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I asked a good question...


No, you didn't. You seem to know nothing about the issues you attempt to raise, and then try to pass your ignorance off as a strength.


----------



## groovetube

Wow you're really pulling out the stops macfury.

When someone asks a genuine question and someone responds with the level of anger as your posts show, I guess it says enough.

Thanks for your contribution though, such as it was!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Without any real comparisons or facts, all of this is useless.
> 
> Does this mean you conservatives are totally fine *with a reported 150+ getting all their expenses paid on this trip*?
> 
> I did hear a lot of chatter about the liberal junkets.


Actually groove from the article that was linked to it says this:



> “*Only 30 or so actually flying on govt plane, rest are paying their own way there*,” MacDonald tweeted to CTV’s Don Martin.
> 
> Read more: Taxpayers to pay travel costs for business travellers on Harper's Mideast trip | CTV News


So I'm not sure where you are getting the 150 number from.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Wow you're really pulling out the stops macfury.
> 
> When someone asks a genuine question and someone responds with the level of anger as your posts show, I guess it says enough.
> 
> Thanks for your contribution though, such as it was!


You should see me when I'm angry. In this case I'm dismissive.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So I'm not sure where you are getting the 150 number from.


From skimming the article without taking time to read it... that's where it came from!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You should see me when I'm angry. In this case I'm dismissive.


Well if that's merely being 'dismissive', I don't want to imagine what your version of anger is!

No one is losing an arm, was just a question. Didn't realize it was such a sensitive issue... Sorry for asking!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Well if that's merely being 'dismissive', I don't want to imagine what your version of anger is!
> 
> No one is losing an arm, was just a question. Didn't realize it was such a sensitive issue... Sorry for asking!


You're forgiven. I know you can do better.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Actually groove from the article that was linked to it says this:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm not sure where you are getting the 150 number from.


You're right, they're saying right now 30 are having all costs covered,though when you read from many sources, this number is a little vague right now.

Still, quite the 'junket'. If this were the liberals people would be all over them like flies on... Certainly have seen enough snide remarks from the conservatives to that effect, I suppose now that they're in majority, suddenly there's value in these, er, junkets....:lmao:

I can perhaps see why such anger flows especially from anyone who preaches that none of these costs beyond the pm and essential staff should be covered. Particularly from a government that has branded itself as 'respect for taxpayers...'


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Still, quite the 'junket'. If this were the liberals people would be all over them like flies on...


They weren't. This is the sort of commentary that flows only from those afflicted with Harper Derangement Syndrome.


----------



## groovetube

Speaking of someone who doesn't read things, I wonder where the terms 'liberal junket' actually came from!

Sorry macfury, on this, you're wrong.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Speaking of someone who doesn't read things, I wonder where the terms 'liberal junket' actually came from!


It's a term made up of two words:

liberal = Liberal Party of Canada
junket = a trip made at public expense


----------



## groovetube

Very good macfury. Perhaps you were paying attention during the many criticisms of Chretien's china trade 'junkets'.

Nice work!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Very good macfury. Perhaps you were paying attention during the many criticisms of Chretien's china trade 'junkets'.
> 
> Nice work!


Sorry, what supposedly happened during the "Chretien China trade junkets"?


----------



## groovetube

Speaking of lazy!:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Speaking of lazy!:lmao:


Just trying to get you to dig your grave a little deeper. You previously had no idea what the normal protocol was for these government trade missions--then suddenly you bring up the Chretien trade missions. 

Nice going...


----------



## groovetube

You assume too much, and have offered nothing but a useless display of anger macfury.

When you've calmed down perhaps you can offer something beyond just angry retorts.

At least screature was able to.


----------



## MacDoc

The Tyee – If Every Norwegian's a Millionaire, Why's Alberta in Hock?


----------



## BigDL

"If every Norwegian is a Millionaire, Why is Alberta in Hock."

You can thank the vagaries of the free market system to distribute wealth out of the public sphere into the pocket of the top 2% of the wealthy. And how many years of conservative (Social Credit/PC) fiscally governance?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> You assume too much, and have offered nothing but a useless display of anger macfury.
> 
> When you've calmed down perhaps you can offer something beyond just angry retorts.
> 
> At least screature was able to.


screature has the patience of a saint. I have no patience for your bafflegab.


----------



## groovetube

I think everyone knows neither I or screature has the patience of a saint.

I'll just chalk it up to some real anger issues.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think everyone knows neither I or screature has the patience of a saint.


I would never ascribe patience to you groovetube. However, screature has shown extraordinary patience with you of late.



groovetube said:


> I'll just chalk it up to some real anger issues.


Sure, go ahead. What difference would it make to anyone?


----------



## groovetube

Ha ha you're really pulling them out aren't you.

Screature and I really disagree with plenty, and likely some of our posts may annoy the other. But I don't think we get to the level of anger you've shown here.

Just chill, it'll be ok! Try to have a good night, despite it all


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Screature and I really disagree with plenty, and likely some of our posts may annoy the other. But I don't think we get to the level of anger you've shown here.


Yes. He appears to be making a special effort to treat you nicely. I said that already.


----------



## groovetube

No, you said he's showing me extraordinary patience. 

He's tried to be nicer and I've tried to return the same. A few posts that annoy you shouldn't ruin your evening. It's that big of a deal.

Cheers.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> No, you said he's showing me extraordinary patience.
> 
> He's tried to be nicer and I've tried to return the same. A few posts that annoy you shouldn't ruin your evening. It's that big of a deal.
> 
> Cheers.


Au contraire. I've enjoyed being honest tonight. It's really lifted my spirits.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Au contraire. I've enjoyed being honest tonight. It's really lifted my spirits.


Sounds like you've had a bit of an awakening. That can be quite empowering!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Sounds like you've had a bit of an awakening. That can be quite empowering!


That's just psycho-babble. I think you're reading too many self-help books.


----------



## mrjimmy

You two are so cute. You should set up a thread where you can while away the hours bantering in your special way.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> You two are so cute. You should set up a thread where you can while away the hours bantering in your special way.


Actually, that would be a most interesting thread, mrj. I would sit in on this discussion and follow it daily. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

I believe macfury and I have found the best in each other. It's truly beautiful.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I believe macfury and I have found the best in each other. It's truly beautiful.


True. You both walk to the beat of a different drummer ........... and you walk side by side in friendship. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Actually, that would be a most interesting thread, mrj. I would sit in on this discussion and follow it daily. Paix, mon ami.


We should all think of an appropriate title for this thread!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> We should all think of an appropriate title for this thread!


Dueling Diatribes (without the bitterness) between ehMacLand's Dynamic Duo


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Dueling Diatribes (without the bitterness) between ehMacLand's Dynamic Duo


You put the 'Lit' in alliteration Dr.G.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> You put the 'Lit' in alliteration Dr.G.


Merci, mon ami. Paix.

Life in the Canadian Political thread is calm today.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> You two are so cute. You should set up a thread where you can while away the hours bantering in your special way.


It's a perfect jewel of honesty.Nothing must be added at this point.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It's a perfect jewel of honesty.Nothing must be added at this point.


Oh you're such a darling. You know you don't crave the spotlight! You should cozy up in a nice little intimate thread and continue whispering those sweet nothings of yours.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Oh you're such a darling. You know you don't crave the spotlight! You should cozy up in a nice little intimate thread and continue whispering those sweet nothings of yours.


You're wrong. I crave the spotlight from time to time--but I also know when it no longer interests me.


----------



## groovetube

You are your own man. You know what you want when you want it.

I relate to this notion, and respect it. I also appreciate your honesty.

Now if we can only get even an attempt at such nobility from our politicians. Perhaps macfury you should run for office!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> You are your own man. You know what you want when you want it.
> 
> I relate to this notion, and respect it. I also appreciate your honesty.
> 
> Now if we can only get even an attempt at such nobility from our politicians. *Perhaps macfury you should run for office*!


I have been asked by various people why I don't run for office ("I would vote for you.") and I always tell them something like:

"I already work in politics and that is bad enough without having to work the ungodly hours and having to do all the travel and having to read my name in the newspaper (good or bad) every day or two."

As MacFury says in his signature, "My life is my own."

Which when you are a politician it isn't.

For those reasons, unless there is some unrelenting cause that I feel that I can actually have any real direct ability to effect change, I will pass.

I don't know, but my suspicion is that (based on his signature) MF probably feels something similar as well.

As always, I could be wrong.


----------



## groovetube

John Ivison: Harper’s bromance with Netanyahu designed to shift focus from PM’s domestic troubles | National Post



> On the Prime Minister’s flight from Ottawa to Tel Aviv, the rabbis came on two by two. In total there are 208 members joining Mr. Harper in the Middle East. That doesn’t even include the 15 Conservative caucus members, security staff or bureaucrats. All, to a greater or lesser extent, are being hosted in the Holy Land by generous contributions from taxpayers such as you (we in the media are paying our own way).
> 
> But the massive co-ordinated effort is designed to send the message that Mr. Harper is a respected international statesman, lauded abroad, even if he is more used to be interrogated at home.


Why is it that whenever a politician wants to tell us just how great they are, they always do so by spending lots of our money? Harper seems to have perfected what the former liberals did, and expanded upon it.


----------



## CubaMark

*Health Canada library changes leave scientists scrambling*



> Health Canada scientists are so concerned about losing access to their research library that they're finding work-arounds, with one squirrelling away journals and books in his basement for colleagues to consult, says a report obtained by CBC News.
> 
> The draft report from a consultant hired by the department warned it not to close its library, but the report was rejected as flawed and the advice went unheeded.
> 
> Before the main library closed, the inter-library loan functions were outsourced to a private company called Infotrieve, the consultant wrote in a report ordered by the department. The library's physical collection was moved to the National Science Library on the Ottawa campus of the National Research Council last year.
> 
> "Staff requests have dropped 90 per cent over in-house service levels prior to the outsource. This statistic has been heralded as a cost savings by senior HC [Health Canada] management," the report said.
> 
> "However, HC scientists have repeatedly said during the interview process that the decrease is because the information has become inaccessible — either it cannot arrive in due time, or it is unaffordable due to the fee structure in place."


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Health Canada library changes leave scientists scrambling*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


Digital is the wave of the future. Don't know what sort of cave people are working in the rank-and-file of Health Canada.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> *Health Canada library changes leave scientists scrambling*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)





> *"Staff requests have dropped 90 per cent over in-house service levels prior to the outsource. This statistic has been heralded as a cost savings by senior HC [Health Canada] management," the report said.
> 
> "However, HC scientists have repeatedly said during the interview process that the decrease is because the information has become inaccessible — either it cannot arrive in due time, or it is unaffordable due to the fee structure in place."*


hmmm sounds familiar. Make it inaccessible prior, then you can claim no one's really using it much anyway. Plenty of sheep will just repeat what you say, and well those crazy scientists are just all on the take anyway, well, the government told me so so it must be true.

Unbelievable.


----------



## SINC

While I won't take the troll bait above calling we who believe libraries are a thing of the past, sheep, and that the government is right to abolish them, I will say that Macfury gets it. I have not been in a library for 15 years now, I can find anything I need for research online. Ditto for scientific research. And if it isn't online by now, blame the scientists themselves for being so far behind the digital times, failing to recognize its future importance to them.


----------



## groovetube

Speaking of troll bait: http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/116346-how-bizarre.html#post1595114

Unprovoked, over a joke I made based on the topic of the thread. Trolling for a fight.

Readin the information so far shows no digitizing of this library. Only closing access to the needed research items making it extremely hard access any of it. One would think that of digitizing was really the goal, you would digitize the library before closing access to it, but that would make too much sense. Clearly, there's things going that contradict what the government is saying, and I do consider those who merely take the government at it's word, despite evidence to the contrary, as 'sheep'.

Now if anyone can provide information that library has been digitized as it's being much praised, or about to be completed, that would be great! But I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> While I won't take the troll bait above calling we who believe libraries are a thing of the past, sheep, and that the government is right to abolish them, I will say that Macfury gets it. I have not been in a library for 15 years now, I can find anything I need for research online. Ditto for scientific research. And if it isn't online by now, blame the scientists themselves for being so far behind the digital times, failing to recognize its future importance to them.


I love the idea of that ninny squirreling copies of journals in his basement as though they're the last copies in existence.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I love the idea of that ninny squirreling copies of journals
> 
> in his basement as though they're the last copies in existence.


Probably because that 'ninny' is having great difficulty in getting access to the needed material, and isn't sure that it will be available. If indeed it were available elsewhere, then there wouldn't be a problem, would there?

I suppose he's a 'ninny', because he said bad things about Harper?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> If indeed it were available elsewhere, then there wouldn't be a problem, would there?


There is no problem. Probably just a weird gesture like teachers selling old junk by the roadside as a protest for budget cuts.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> There is no problem. Probably just a weird gesture like teachers selling old junk by the roadside as a protest for budget cuts.


That's quite a projection macfury. I suppose you have some inside information to share that has caused you to come to this conclusion?


----------



## aylwin

I'm willing to give these scientists some benefit of the doubt. Perhaps the material in question is older, out-of-print, and not owned by anyone who has a commercial interest in digitizing it? Digitizing material sounds easy, but if Google is continuing to expend enormous amounts of human *and* computational power to digitize libraries, perhaps this niche academic material needs a bit more time before the physical materials are put out of reach and/or destroyed.


----------



## i-rui

As we've already seen with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans libraries, they cannot digitize content which they do not hold the copyright to. So in some cases that is not a workable solution.

Also certain material does not lend itself to be viewed as digital content when compared to a quality hardcopy. Art books spring to mind.

Digital archives makes sense, But not at the expense of all hardcopies.


----------



## Macfury

I can only say that I have never found any piece of published information impossible to access. I may not always want to pay for a subscription to see a study, or want to pay a few bucks to see an article, but it's there if I care to. For almost any learned journal, I just need to pick the source that is most easily accessible to me.

Would help if the article mentioned which Journals the scientist thought were irreplaceable--however this is typical CBC journalism.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> As we've already seen with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans libraries, they cannot digitize content which they do not hold the copyright to. So in some cases that is not a workable solution.


If they do not hold the copyright, then the item was published elsewhere, and so the existence of other copies is virtually guaranteed.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> If they do not hold the copyright, then the item was published elsewhere, and so the existence of other copies is virtually guaranteed.


yes, but in a all digital scenario it won't be available from the library to someone looking for that material... which is kind of the point of libraries.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> yes, but in a all digital scenario it won't be available from the library to someone looking for that material... which is kind of the point of libraries.


That's why the DFO was ensuring that only duplicate non-digital material was being removed.


----------



## i-rui

judging by eyewitness accounts it was chaos when then library was closed, so i'm skeptical anything was "ensured".

also there's the fact that plans are to close 7 of 11 DFO libraries so the government is dramatically reducing research facilities, so even in a best case scenario then non-digital materials availability has been reduced by almost 70% to researchers.

penny wise & pound foolish behaviour when one considers the minimal savings vs the potential lost research opportunities. even worse when one understands that the next government will most likely reopen & refurbish most of these libraries erasing the thousands of dollars saved vs the millions that would be needed to bring them up to speed again.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> judging by eyewitness accounts it was chaos when then library was closed, so i'm skeptical anything was "ensured".
> 
> also there's the fact that plans are to close 7 of 11 DFO libraries so the government is dramatically reducing research facilities, so even in a best case scenario that non-digital materials availability has been reduced by almost 70% to researchers.
> 
> penny wise & pound foolish behaviour when one considers the minimal savings vs the potential lost research opportunities. even worse when one understands that the next government will most likely reopen & refurbish most of these libraries erasing the thousands of dollars saved vs the millions that would be needed to bring them up to speed again.


I've seen some of this screeching up close. They only begin to value the stuff when their fiefdom is being pared down, Suddenly its "potential" value begins to exceed its actual value by orders of magnitude.


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> also there's the fact that plans are to close 7 of 11 DFO libraries so the government is dramatically reducing research facilities,


Is each library associated with a research facility? Or are some libraries standalone?



i-rui said:


> so even in a best case scenario that non-digital materials availability has been reduced by almost 70% to researchers.


How much of the materials is actually being accessed? How often? How often are there multiple requests for an identical piece of research during the same time period? How many copies of one particular piece of research is really needed? 1? 5? 11?

You're making some broad based statements here with no data to back them up. If 80% of the material is accessed less than 20 % of the time, there is no point in keeping eleven libraries open for a demand that small.


----------



## kps

Perhaps this was already touched upon earlier, but anything within 30 years or so should already be digitized,(meaning the originals were made digitally) anything earlier, originals or copies should be available from the authors, considering how competitive and anal these researchers can be.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Perhaps this was already touched upon earlier, but anything within 50 years or so should already be digitized,(meaning the originals were made digitally) anything earlier, originals or copies should be available from the authors, considering how competitive and anal these researchers can be.


I agree kps. I don't know why they don't digitize and go through the process, and -then- close the libraries. The process seems really off.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I agree kps. I don't know why they don't digitize and go through the process, and -then- close the libraries. The process seems really off.


I don't know either. Anything produced between 30 years ago and today is probably already digitized (i.e. computer generated) . As far as the older stuff, no doubt the original authors are holding copies.


----------



## groovetube

So researchers have to go hunting multiple sources from original authors?

I don't know, that doesn't sound very efficient to me. I'm not against the idea of digitizing, don't get me wrong, but this whole things sounds like a lot of slash and burn bungling in haste to try and balance budgets, without a good clear plan to ensure efficient access.

I think people are too quick to excuse this ramrod approach typical of this government, and there nothing wrong with holding their feet to the fire to make sure the process of digitizing is done well.

Personal ancedotes of 'ninnies' whining etc does nothing to make this whole thing clearer.


----------



## eMacMan

kps said:


> I don't know either. Anything produced between 30 years ago and today is probably already digitized (i.e. computer generated) . As far as the older stuff, no doubt the original authors are holding copies.


When those authors die, family members are left with the excruciating task of sorting through those old manuscripts and reports and deciding what is and is not worth salvaging. Often there is a large volume, time constraints and no-one local willing or able to assist with the chore. Having been there and believing that everything of importance was on file in various scientific libraries, I felt comfortable feeding the originals into the recycle bins. 

I would be very surprised if this was something that happens far too often.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *When those authors die, family members are left with the excruciating task of sorting through those old manuscripts and reports and deciding what is and is not worth salvaging. Often there is a large volume, time constraints and no-one local willing or able to assist with the chore. Having been there and believing that everything of importance was on file in various scientific libraries, I felt comfortable feeding the originals into the recycle bins. *
> 
> I would be very surprised if this was something that happens far too often.


See that may be the difference.

I was in a similar position when my father died and I was his executor.

I only got rid of hard copies of anything that I knew wasn't duplicated digitally (or otherwise) or was not of any public interest.

Everything else I still have hard copies of stored in filing cabinets that trust me I wish I could get rid of but I can't as a responsible person.

The day will come, when I die, that someone else will be in charge of looking after his archives, but until that that day comes it is my responsibility and so I take it on, as it should be...

It is not the government's responsibility to take on the task of archiving everything that any individual has produced. It is simply unrealistic to expect or to assume/presume that it would/should be the case. 

If one want's to preserve the legacy of their fore-bearers then those private individuals need to take some responsibility and step up to the plate.

It is the way it has always been.

Governments only write the history of the victors. The vanquished rely on other methods of documentation.

Same as it ever was.

This is nothing new.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> See that may be the difference.
> 
> I was in a similar position when my father died and I was his executor.
> 
> I only got rid of hard copies of anything that I knew wasn't duplicated digitally (or otherwise) or was not of any public interest.
> 
> Everything else I still have hard copies of stored in filing cabinets that trust me I wish I could get rid of but I can't as a responsible person.
> 
> The day will come, when I die, that someone else will be in charge of looking after his archives, but until that that day comes it is my responsibility and so I take it on, as it should be...
> 
> It is not the government's responsibility to take on the task of archiving everything that any individual has produced. It is simply unrealistic to expect or to assume/presume that it would/should be the case.
> 
> If one want's to preserve the legacy of their fore-bearers then those private individuals need to take some responsibility and step up to the plate.
> 
> It is the way it has always been.
> 
> Governments only write the history of the victors. The vanquished rely on other methods of documentation.
> 
> Same as it ever was.
> 
> This is nothing new.


Absolutely. The notion that anything about to be disposed of is suddenly seen as gold-plated is amusing. I've owned vintage books that I ultimately had to admit were worthless to me--nobody would buy them and I couldn't even give them away. Time for them to go to publisher's heaven.


----------



## groovetube

It's anyone's guess as to how ones personal story of getting rid of a personal shelf of old books is any way related to the libraries of information used for research.

This just goes from silly, to just bizzare!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It's anyone's guess as to how ones personal story of getting rid of a personal shelf of old books is any way related to the libraries of information used for research.
> 
> This just goes from silly, to just bizzare!


If you've been to some of these government libraries as I have, you would realize you are out of your depth with that comment.


----------



## groovetube

Right. My nephew was thinking of purging his dr suess collection but seemed overly concerned about whether he might want to read them again at a later date. I can see how all this relates.


----------



## SINC

Must your comments always be so caustic and degrading to other members?


----------



## groovetube

There were no 'degrading comments to members' here. I was being sarcastic about a post. Macfury has been plenty sarcastic about my posts many times, so I don't know why you're dumping in here when I make one. If sarcasm isn't welcome, then I would expect macfury and others never to use it again either. Do you think that'll happen?? beejacon

Maybe you should email macdoc about it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> It's anyone's guess as to how ones personal story of getting rid of a personal shelf of old books is any way related to the libraries of information used for research.
> 
> This just goes from silly, to just bizzare!





groovetube said:


> Right. My nephew was thinking of purging his dr suess collection but seemed overly concerned about whether he might want to read them again at a later date. I can see how all this relates.


So, I am supposed to believe that that these two were meant without any malice towards the members? Yeah, right.


----------



## groovetube

No, that's not malice, it's sarcasm on the topic. I've certainly gotten the same sarcasm on personal ancedotes, and worse. I didn't see you come thundering in to address that...

So yeah, I don't know why you've appointed yourself groovetube's personal security detail jumping all over me in every thread. Others have indicated they're tired of it, and so am I, but you're not listening. I would suggest that rather than jumping on me with your personal vendetta against me , that try following the thread to see why there is sarcasm, and stop tiring us with your groovetube fetish.

It's getting rather creepy.


----------



## SINC

I am simply pointing out to YOU (and no one else) that you continue to post stuff that is questionable to other members. Trolling disguised as humour or sarcasm is still trolling to spark reaction. And no, I certainly do not have any fetish concerning you, get over it. As for jumping all over you in every thread, well, that lie can be disproven in The Shang this morning for example.

If you are sincere about cleaning up the board, start by looking in the mirror and think before you post silly remarks that are inflammatory.


----------



## groovetube

Well, you follow me around in most of the threads attacking me for my posts, others have pointed it out, so clearly you have a vendetta against me.

If you don't like my posts, then don't respond to them. Macfury is a big boy, and certainly a veteran of posts that are to get a reaction, I'm quite certain he can shrug off some sarcasm as I have his.

I don't think one nice post in the Shang will erase the large number of posts you make attacking me calling me a troll endlessly. If you want to continue some decent posts like the -one- you've made in the Shang, I'd welcome the letting go and moving on.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I don't think one nice post in the Shang will erase the large number of posts you make attacking me calling me a troll endlessly. If you want to continue some decent posts like the -one- you've made in the Shang, I'd welcome the letting go and moving on.


I'm all for that, provided you let go with the silly political jabs. State your opinion and end it there would be a good start.


----------



## groovetube

Well that would mean everyone has to SINC. I'm not the only one to be sarcastic here by a long shot. I don't dare offer a personal anecdote because as you know, it'd be ripped up and spit out in pieces in a New York minute. 

I've disengaged from direct personal attacks, and the name calling. I can't promise that when some sarcasm flows I won't be a little sarcastic back. But I can try to keep things fun or silly, and not angry.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> So researchers have to go hunting multiple sources from original authors?
> 
> I don't know, that doesn't sound very efficient to me. I'm not against the idea of digitizing, don't get me wrong, but this whole things sounds like a lot of slash and burn bungling in haste to try and balance budgets, without a good clear plan to ensure efficient access.
> 
> I think people are too quick to excuse this ramrod approach typical of this government, and there nothing wrong with holding their feet to the fire to make sure the process of digitizing is done well.
> 
> Personal ancedotes of 'ninnies' whining etc does nothing to make this whole thing clearer.


Researchers have to go hunting multiple sources as part and parcel of their research so what is the problem? If this was the wrong thing to do then better get the "ninnies "to start rebuilding the destroyed or missing material. Isn't there a .ORG out there willing to sponsor this? I guess not.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Researchers have to go hunting multiple sources as part and parcel of their research so what is the problem? If this was the wrong thing to do then better get the "ninnies "to start rebuilding the destroyed or missing material. Isn't there a .ORG out there willing to sponsor this? I guess not.


That I don't know kps. As I said, I would think a well planned process of digitizing and culling of duplicates -before- a library closing would have been far better, and certainly harder to criticize.

From what we are seeing, multiple times,this doesn't seem like a very well executed process at all.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> That I don't know kps. As I said, I would think a well planned process of digitizing and culling of duplicates -before- a library closing would have been far better, and certainly harder to criticize.
> 
> From what we are seeing, multiple times,this doesn't seem like a very well executed process at all.


I would agree that as with many government initiatives it certainly wasn't executed very well. <sarcasm>aaaaand it's all Harper's fault…</sarcasm>


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It's anyone's guess as to how ones personal story of getting rid of a personal shelf of old books is any way related to the libraries of information used for research.
> 
> This just goes from silly, to just bizzare!


It all comes down to what one perceives as being "valuable" groove, there is no "set in stone" determination for this.

We simply can't keep everything forever, it is simply untenable. 

Cripes I am in the process of helping my wife "weed out" her office so that she has room for things that are of more current/relevant value i.e. things that she can't find online without having a hard copy.

Just an example... over the holidays I was looking for a specific recipe of Porchetta that I remembered from years ago from a magazine that I couldn't remember the title of but to try and find it looking through my magazine collection (of which actually I no longer have the original copy) it probably would have taken me hours... using the internet and digital technology I was able to find it in about 15 minutes.


Porchetta  it is simply delicious, I highly recommend it. The recipe is from 1999.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I would agree that as with many government initiatives it certainly wasn't executed very well. <sarcasm>aaaaand it's all Harper's fault…</sarcasm>


Lol on the sarcasm tags.



screature said:


> It all comes down to what one perceives as being "valuable" groove, there is no "set in stone" determination for this.
> 
> We simply can't keep everything forever, it is simply untenable.
> 
> Cripes I am in the process of helping my wife "weed out" her office so that she has room for things that are of more current/relevant value i.e. things that she can't find online without having a hard copy.
> 
> Just an example... over the holidays I was looking for a specific recipe of Porchetta that I remembered from years ago from a magazine that I couldn't remember the title of but to try and find it looking through my magazine collection (of which actually I no longer have the original copy) it probably would have taken me hours... using the internet and digital technology I was able to find it in about 15 minutes.
> 
> 
> Porchetta  it is simply delicious, I highly recommend it. The recipe is from 1999.


Well I suppose government itself isn't the best judge of what is and isn't valuable in those libraries. I'd say those who rely on it likely do. We've heard from some of them and they're passed off as 'ninnies'. I can't say that I'd know if some of them are ninnies, but I suppose we should hear from more on this. And I suspect we likely will.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It all comes down to what one perceives as being "valuable" groove, there is no "set in stone" determination for this.
> 
> We simply can't keep everything forever, it is simply untenable.


I find it hilarious that if you'd asked anyone in 2010 how many libraries the DFO should operate, few people would have said 11. It's only when people perceive that they are losing something--anything!--that it acquires some sort of imaginary value. 

It wouldn't have mattered if those libraries contained recipes for trout, when someone threatens to chew off a piece of someone's bureaucratic turf--it's WAR!!!!


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> See that may be the difference.
> 
> I was in a similar position when my father died and I was his executor.
> 
> I only got rid of hard copies of anything that I knew wasn't duplicated digitally (or otherwise) or was not of any public interest.
> 
> Everything else I still have hard copies of stored in filing cabinets that trust me I wish I could get rid of but I can't as a responsible person.
> 
> The day will come, when I die, that someone else will be in charge of looking after his archives, but until that that day comes it is my responsibility and so I take it on, as it should be...
> 
> It is not the government's responsibility to take on the task of archiving everything that any individual has produced. It is simply unrealistic to expect or to assume/presume that it would/should be the case.
> 
> If one want's to preserve the legacy of their fore-bearers then those private individuals need to take some responsibility and step up to the plate.
> 
> It is the way it has always been.
> 
> Governments only write the history of the victors. The vanquished rely on other methods of documentation.
> 
> Same as it ever was.
> 
> This is nothing new.


Easy enough to do, when you are not a thousand miles away, having to rent a truck to move them across an international border and then pay to store them.

When you have about a week for that portion of the task, you have to rely that the copies that were submitted to government libraries are sufficient. I can assure you a great deal from the fifties through the nineties has been lost and will continue to be lost for various reasons. Where there is possible financial rewards people will preserve. Where it is "only" information chances are extremely high it will be lost.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I can assure you a great deal from the fifties through the nineties has been lost and will continue to be lost for various reasons.


What, specifically?


----------



## Dr.G.

Conrad Black owes $5.1M in back taxes, court rules - Business - CBC News

I think that after all the Canadian government has put His Lordship through in the past, they should write off this tax debt, and even throw a few bucks his way to help with his legal bills. We shall see.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

standard response. Harper or Orwell?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 40930
> standard response. Harper or Orwell?


So?

You clearly have never worked at any level of government if you think this kind of template is anything new.

BTW your post has some formatting issues... too much in a rush to be the first to post this tidbit that is not news worthy at all I guess.

Rather typical of your posts and the media in general these days.

The lack of real attention paid to what one posts/says/publishes is just sad IMO.

An undergrad could do better and display more attention to detail.

It seems it is the new "normal".


----------



## groovetube

Ah but the tight top down control Harper exerts over minister communication, is unique to this government. 

This template, Id be really curious to see if one exists for previous governments, like this one. Beyond the usual standard protocol documents that are, nothing new.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Ah but the tight top down control Harper exerts over minister communication, is unique to this government. *
> 
> This template, Id be really curious to see if one exists for previous governments, like this one. Beyond the usual standard protocol documents that are, nothing new.


How exactly do you know that groove? You never worked for any government thus it is just an opinion. One that you are entitled to but it certainly doesn't make you right.

Exactly what information/experience are you basing your opinion on? From what you have read in the media?

Please don't give me the usual "Everyone knows it and I am not alone." answer.

Specifically what do you know about governmental response templates from previous governments that leads you to make this statement?

I know it is what you want to believe/have been led to believe by the media and the Opposition but show me the evidence if you are going to make the claim.

The fact of the matter is that we simply didn't have the level of public scrutiny that comes with the internet and social media to know otherwise. But none-the-less it gets portrayed as being something "new" because we simply had no/extremely limited access to these types of documents in the past.

That is why I have said and will say it again, to try and portray this government as being more opaque than any other is simply a joke. We know more about the internal workings of this government than any one that preceded it, simply because we have almost instantaneous (in relative terms) access to it.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> How exactly do you know that groove? You never worked for any government thus it is just an opinion. One that you are entitled to but it certainly doesn't make you right.
> 
> Exactly what information/experience are you basing your opinion on? From what you have read in the media?
> 
> Please don't give me the usual "Everyone knows it and I am not alone." answer.
> 
> Specifically what do you know about governmental response templates from previous governments that leads you to make this statement?
> 
> I know it is what you want to believe/have been led to believe by the media and the Opposition but show me the evidence if you are going to make the claim.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that we simply didn't have the level of public scrutiny that comes with the internet and social media to know otherwise. But none-the-less it gets portrayed as being something "new" because we simply had no/extremely limited access to these types of documents in the past.
> 
> That is why I have said and will say it again, to try and portray this government as being more opaque than any other is simply a joke. We know more about the internal workings of this government than any one that preceded it, simply because we have almost instantaneous (in relative terms) access to it.


I know because half my family, and a whole pile of university friends when I lived in Ottawa with, all work in government, some in senior levels, and have all corroborated much of what the media says. Many of them have been there long before the current government and know the difference, and a few have been there since the days of Mulroney. (their opinions carry the most weight with me...) Interesting to note, some, are conservative supporters, not all I know, are "lefties".  That may may not carry much weight here, I only say so since you asked, but this is certainly something that has been pointed out by many different circles. You are one of the very few, who have said otherwise.

I know we may disagree, and I'm to expecting to change your mind by any means, but I trust my sources a whole lot more


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

orwell


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I know because half my family, and a whole pile of university friends when I lived in Ottawa with, all work in government, some in senior levels, and have all corroborated much of what the media says. Many of them have been there long before the current government and know the difference, and a few have been there since the days of Mulroney. (their opinions carry the most weight with me...) Interesting to note, some, are conservative supporters, not all I know, are "lefties".  That may may not carry much weight here, I only say so since you asked, but this is certainly something that has been pointed out by many different circles. You are one of the very few, who have said otherwise.
> 
> I know we may disagree, and I'm to expecting to change your mind by any means, but I trust my sources a whole lot more


Well you don't *know* it, is just hearsay to you, but I understand why you would believe family and friends over me it is just the way of human beings and to be expected.

I started working at Parliament Hill in 1997 when Chretien was in power and this type of template was common place, the language was obviously different but the intent was the same. The PM controls the shots. It's his job after all. That is why he is the *Prime* Minister.

At any rate we are not going to see eye to eye on the matter but I know from experience such templates are just the norm for governments and this is nothing new IMO and experience.

Peace out.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> orwell


Was an author of fiction, not fact.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So?
> 
> You clearly have never worked at any level of government if you think this kind of template is anything new.


I remember seeing a template given to CUPW workers to create problems in privately contracted post offices. One of the scenarios offered advice and a script on how to pretend one was deaf.


----------



## groovetube

Do you have a copy of this?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Do you have a copy of this?


I think I might have saved a photocopy of the script. This would have been late 1980s.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Well you don't *know* it, is just hearsay to you, but I understand why you would believe family and friends over me it is just the way of human beings and to be expected.
> 
> I started working at Parliament Hill in 1997 when Chretien was in power and this type of template was common place, the language was obviously different but the intent was the same. The PM controls the shots. It's his job after all. That is why he is the *Prime* Minister.
> 
> At any rate we are not going to see eye to eye on the matter but I know from experience such templates are just the norm for governments and this is nothing new IMO and experience.
> 
> Peace out.


Well, the 'hearsay' is incredibly consistent amongst quite few people  leftie rightie alike, so that's why I take it as fairly credible. Not that my personal ancedotes mean much to you, debut that's why I believe that. And not to mention that harpers top down control seems quite legendary and spoken of throughout the media and quotes by many in government, starting with him muzzling his candidates pretty early on. Not to mention, muzzling anyone else from speaking it seems! And his supporters seem just fine with it! However, not everyone is...

So yes, we'll have to disagree strongly there .)

Using the senate scandal as an example, Harper's ever slippery story isn't the picture of transparency. We never did find out what the 'good to go' from Harper meant. That Harper's go ahead for Duffy to pay back what he stole? Ha ha ha ha.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I think I might have saved a photocopy of the script. This would have been late 1980s.


Would be interesting to see.

It's something I might expect from a union, but not so much from our government. Guess I was naive on that front.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Was an author of fiction, not fact.


he was also a journalist, and wrote about facts.


----------



## Macfury

Scripting a response is hardly Orwellian. Especially in an age when one word out of place will get you hauled onto the Internet and humiliated.


----------



## groovetube

Funny enough, that's sounds like quite the scripted excuse!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Na Na Na - NA NA NA NA - NA NA NA NA - good for a chuckle*

Watch: Harper rocks at state dinner with Netanyahu | JPost | Israel News


----------



## groovetube

oh gaaaaawwwdddd. I think he's gonna be na na naming like crazy thinking it'll help him at the polls.

I feel for the guys in the backup band. There must b some real wincing back there


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Who knows what's next? The twerk?*

.


----------



## CubaMark

Jeebus, that gif is going to haunt me for awhile... *shudder*



(MacKinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

Young scientists should get jobs in private industry so they won't go begging for handouts from the government.


----------



## groovetube

Yes there son (or daughter) we want you, YOU, to come up with findings that says our new chemical is safe for everyone!

There's no more pesky centrists in government who will say otherwise!

(in voice of Mr. Burns...)

eeeeeexcellent....


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> he was also a journalist, and wrote about facts.


Hardly what he was/is known for...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> oh gaaaaawwwdddd. I think he's gonna be na na naming like crazy thinking it'll help him at the polls.
> 
> I feel for the guys in the backup band. There must b some real wincing back there


At least the current PM is known for his rather bad renditions of Beatles songs and not strangling innocent citizens (something Harper could have done recently but didn't) and saying "For me, pepper, I put it on my plate." When asked about serious events.

Harper is a real "sweet heart" by comparison.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> .


Keep up the good work skippy. You set an example that the rest of us here should follow. 

Simply a disgusting post. 

Do you have kids? Are they aware of what you post here?

After this post does anyone really doubt that skippy and stink are one and the same persona that all trace back to jimbo?

Who else here has 3 persona's all created simply to be a troll?

Ooh, Ooh, I know. Pick me, pick me, I know the answer!

No one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Hardly what he was/is known for...



To you perhaps.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Keep up the good work skippy. You set an example that the rest of us here should follow.
> 
> 
> 
> Simply a disgusting post.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have kids? Are they aware of what you post here?
> 
> 
> 
> After this post does anyone really doubt that skippy and stink are one and the same persona that all trace back to jimbo?
> 
> 
> 
> Who else here has 3 persona's all created simply to be a troll?
> 
> 
> 
> Ooh, Ooh, I know. Pick me, pick me, I know the answer!
> 
> 
> 
> No one.



You need help.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> To you perhaps.


Not really, to most persons of the world.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> At least the current PM is known for his rather bad renditions of Beatles songs and not strangling innocent citizens (something Harper could have done recently but didn't) and saying "For me, pepper, I put it on my plate." When asked about serious events.
> 
> Harper is a real "sweet heart" by comparison.


no but he has no problem strangling citizens for 600 million in adscam money to run conservative promotion ads. The ones where they trumpet things that aren't even passed yet.

There's just no excuse for that crap after a) they said they'd be better than the liberals and b) said they're better money managers.

So far, they've shown they can be better than the liberals by spending more than they did on adscams, and make their supporters feel like it's money well spent!

I find his constant bad singing stuff just getting really embarrassing. A couple times, ok, novel. But now? jeeeeeez, give it up already...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Keep up the good work skippy. You set an example that the rest of us here should follow.


Jimbo wears the prerv crown proudly.


----------



## groovetube

Sounds like there's a wee too much protesteth-ing


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Sounds like there's a wee too much protesteth-ing


That makes no sense. You need to speak in front of more critical audiences.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You need help.


Hardly. You are the one who needs help based on the ****e you post.

I feel sorry for your family and friends if that is the kind of stuff that they have to endure coming from you.

Perhaps you only use this place to vent your pent up rage. Who knows for what reason's? 

Perhaps it is because you are "anonymous" here and you can create various persona's that those close to you don't know about so you let your Mr. Hyde out to quell your demon's?

I don't know, but your posts IMO are reflective of someone who I would never want to know in person because you always come across as caustic/toxic.

You never have a good word to say about anything or anyone.

All you do is criticize, without any alternatives.

I get it. You don't like the current government.

Fair enough.

Now take the time to tell us if you you were in power what you would to make things better or at least have some policy alternatives. You never, ever do that. 

Sorry jimbo that is the way I see it.

You have never once denied being jimbo or stink despite many number of posts accusing of being one in the same person.

When I joined somewhere else under a different persona and was called out on it I immediately fessed up. Why can't you do the same?

Are you really proud of your Miley Cyrus f**k me in the a** post???

And yet you post I am the one who needs help???

Get a grip man and be an adult.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That makes no sense. You need to speak in front of more critical audiences.




and a bit more, protesteth...ing. :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

👍


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> &#55357;&#56397;


Hopefully, PM Harper will cut short his Mideast tour and return for this crisis. I hear that TO's Mayor Ford will post bail for poor Justin.


(CNN) -- Justin Bieber was charged with drunken driving, resisting arrest and driving without a valid license after police saw the pop star street racing Thursday morning, Miami Beach police said.

"What the f*** did I do? Why did you stop me?" Bieber told the police officer who pulled him over just after 4 a.m., according to the arrest report.

Bieber, 19, was booked into a Miami jail after failing a sobriety test, Miami Beach Police Chief Raymond Martinez told reporters Thursday.

"At first, he was a little belligerent, using some choice words questioning why he was being stopped and why the officer was even questioning him," he said.

He allegedly ignored a police officer's request to keep his hands on the car while he did "a cursory patdown for weapons," the report said.

"I ain't got no f***ing weapons," the arresting officer quoted Bieber as saying. "Why do you have to search me? What the f*** is this about?"

Justin Bieber arrested on drunken driving, resisting arrest charges - CNN.com


----------



## screature

This was bound to happen eventually. Not quite sure exactly how this fits into the political thread though...


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> This was bound to happen eventually. Not quite sure exactly how this fits into the political thread though...


I was just playing off of the picture of PM Harper and Justin B. JB is one of our leading exports to the US. Hopefully, he shall not be deported back to us. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I was just playing off of the picture of PM Harper and Justin B. *JB is one of our leading exports to the US.* Hopefully, he shall not be deported back to us. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Actually he is not as very little money from JB actually flows back into Canada. His personal taxes and I cannot think of anything else.

Quite frankly he is more of an embarrassment to Canada than anything else. 

On par with Rob Ford and Neil Young of late.

Actually of late Neil Young is the bigger embarrassment and detriment to Canada with his "misinformation" (a euphemism) trying to undermine the viability of tens of thousands of jobs and a major driver of the Canadian economy. 

He was "just visiting" Canada to further his own personal political proclivities... He kind of reminds me of Ignatieff in that regard.

When was the last time Neil Young even voted in a Canadian election for Christ's sake?

All the while he is already back in sunny California.

I have always loved Neil as a singer song writer but when it comes to Canadian politics he doesn't know his a** from a hole in the ground.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Quite frankly he is more an embarrassment to to Canada than anything else.
> 
> On par with Rob Ford and Neil Young of late.


Exactly.


----------



## kps

screature said:


> Actually he is not as very little money from JB actually flows back into Canada. His personal taxes and I cannot think of anything else.
> 
> Quite frankly he is more of an embarrassment to Canada than anything else.
> 
> On par with Rob Ford and Neil Young of late.
> 
> Actually of late Neil Young is the bigger embarrassment and detriment to Canada with his "misinformation" (a euphemism) trying to undermine the viability of tens of thousands of jobs and a major driver of the Canadian economy.
> 
> He was "just visiting" Canada to further his own personal political proclivities... He kind of reminds me of Ignatieff in that regard.
> 
> When was the last time Neil Young even voted in a Canadian election for Christ's sake?
> 
> All the while he is already back in sunny California.
> 
> I have always loved Neil as a singer song writer but when it comes to Canadian politics he doesn't know his a** from a hole in the ground.


Perhaps Young is even worse than Iggy:

Exposing Neil Young : Prime time : SunNews Video Gallery wih proof.


----------



## groovetube

Sun News and Proof don't really go together. How many times is Ezra Levant being sued currently? :lmao:

Neil Young has had a history of speaking out on issues. To me he has more credibility than most stars, and I think so many have their undershorts in a knot over his stance on the oilsands, it's amused me as to the Canadian Government's response, totally missing Young's point, and completely ignoring the obvious reports that there would be real detrimental environmental effects to expanding the oil sands, and, the real point of Neil Young's stance, breaking agreements with the the first nations, and raising money to help them in their legal battles.

As far as Young is concerned, perhaps some might not know who he is, or wish he's a yesterday's news, but reality, being sold out shows everywhere, and certainly the recent tribute to Young, say otherwise.

He's got plenty, of clout and he's using it. Good on him I say. This idea that someone has to live in a wood shack up in the boonies and ride nothing more than a bicycle anywhere before you're allowed to say anything about the expansion of the oilsands, is nothing but a conservative ploy to shut people up.

Oil production is here to stay for now, but Young has a good point regarding the breaking of agreements of the first nations, whether people like it, or not.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Quite frankly he is more of an embarrassment to Canada than anything else. " I agree.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> To me he has more credibility than most stars....


Man, that quote speaks volumes.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Man, that quote speaks volumes.


Perhaps to you. But how so for others?


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Man, that quote speaks volumes.


So-called stars need to learn that their opinions or beliefs are just that, "theirs". They do not speak for anyone else, but themselves and anyone who admires or supports them is as misguided as the star. While Young is a bona fide song writer, as a vocalist he is a far cry from thousands better than him.


----------



## groovetube

That can be said for anyone, rock star, politician, private citizen, whomever. That's the beauty of freedom of speech. Everyone here can express their opinion on what Neil Young has said or done, but the idea that he shouldn't express his opinion, simply because he's a rock star, goes against our freedoms of speech. He's free to do and say as he is doing regardless of what his title is.

I don't think Neil Young's message is, "I'm better than you", unless I missed where that was. It's the Canadian government has broken the agreements with the First Nations and he wants to raise money to help them fight it in court.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Young has a good point regarding the breaking of agreements of the first nations


Perhaps you'd care to elaborate.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> So-called stars need to learn that their opinions or beliefs are just that, "theirs". They do not speak for anyone else, but themselves and anyone who admires or supports them is as misguided as the star.


Young is just compensating for his disgraceful refusal to pay child support in the 1980s.


----------



## groovetube

Yes because a child support case from 40 years ago has such relevance to his raising money to help First Nations fight the expansion.

Sounds a wee bit desperate macfury.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Young is just compensating for his disgraceful refusal to pay child support in the 1980s.


It speaks volumes about his character.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Yes because a child support case from 40 years ago has such relevance to his raising money to help First Nations fight the expansion.
> 
> Sounds a wee bit desperate macfury.


The only only desperate thing I'am seeing here is your attempt to somehow discredit Levant's video. I don't think a first nation band making 250,000,000mil (yeah quarter of a billion) a year from the oil companies needs Neil Young to raise any money for them.

Watch the video again and try to retain the content or disprove it.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> The only only desperate thing I'am seeing here is your attempt to somehow discredit Levant's video. I don't think a first nation band making 250,000,000mil (yeah quarter of a billion) a year from the oil companies needs Neil Young to raise any money for them.
> 
> Watch the video again and try to retain the content or disprove it.


You've known GT long enough--he will just demand that you to prove that his unfounded contention is NOT true, while he sits on his ass and waits.


----------



## groovetube

Ezra levant you mean mister Rothmans lobbyist? Speaking of character... Oh I've watched Ezra levant long enough, not to mention how many times he's been sued ( he's currently being sued at least once now or is that 2 cases? Hard to keep up...) to know much of his 'reporting' and videos are to be taken with a grain of salt. Ezra levant and his whole 'ethical oil' campaign, he is so in deep in the oil interests, his eyes are black.

But he sure has plenty of supporters who will drink his poison whenever he spews it!

But I bet the lawyers at sun news network have their hands real full. He's been forced to backtrack and issues apologies for his outright lies he's told on air.

So I don't take anything Ezra levant says with any degree of credibility. Sorry.

As for Youngs 40 year old child support case, yeah, anything, ANYTHING dear god to try and discredit and save our dear holy oil sands. Even the Canadian government as far as I know hasn't stooped quite that low...

That seems quite tame compared Ezra levants clear record.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*The Harper economic record - 8 years and counting*

Estimated amount spent on taxpayer-funded advertisements since 2009 touting the “Economic Action Plan” and the government’s economic record : $113,000,000
National unemployment rate in January, 2006: 6.6
National unemployment rate in December, 2013: 7.2
Increase in the number of unemployed in Canada since January 2006: 236,200
Youth unemployment rate, January 2006: 12.2
Youth unemployment rate, December 2013: 14.0
Rank of Canada’s unemployment rate in 2013 compared to other G7 countries: 3rd
Rank of Canada among the 34 OECD nations in employment creation 2007-2012: 20th
Number of governments since 1935 that have presided over a slower rate of real economic growth per capita than the Harper Conservatives: 0
Number of consecutive annual federal budget deficits: 6
Number of budget deficit targets hit by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty: 0
Number of consecutive annual federal budget surpluses under the previous Liberal (Chrétien/Martin) governments: 9
Amount added to the federal national debt since Conservatives took power in 2006: $123,500,000,000
Number of years it would take to count to 123,500,000,000, counting non-stop at one number per second: 3,913
Portion of the total federal debt accumulated since 2006: 1/5
Budget surplus in percentage terms, relative to the nominal GDP, 2006: +1.6
Budget balance in percentage terms, relative to the nominal GDP, 2013: -3.0
Percentage increase in the inflation-adjusted average hourly manufacturing wage, 2006-2013: 0
Percentage drop in productivity (GDP produced per employed person), 2006 to September 2013: 1.9
Percentage increase in the number of federal civil servants, 2005-2012: 14
Exchange rate of the Canadian dollar (cents US), January 2006: 87
Exchange rate of the Canadian dollar (cents US), December 2013: 94
Consecutive monthly merchandise trade deficits: 23
Percentage increase in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, 2006-2013: 55.1
Percentage increase in the TSX Composite Index, 2006-2013: 16.1
Average house price, January 2006 : $256,537
Average house price, December 2013 : $389,119
Amount Canadians owed for every $1 in disposable income they earned, 2005: $1.30
Amount Canadians owed for every $1 in disposable income they earned, 2013: $1.64
Decima Research Index of Consumer Confidence, December 2005: 84.8
Decima Research Index of Consumer Confidence, December 2013: 84.4
Percentage of the popular vote won by the Harper Conservatives in the 2006 election: 36
Percentage of those questioned in a December Harris-Decima poll who would vote Conservative: 26

Sources: Statistics Canada, Trading Economics, Globe and Mail, Bank of Canada, Toronto Stock Exchange, Decima Research, the Economist Magazine, Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives, Parliamentary Budget Officer


----------



## Macfury

That's pretty damned good, considering the world's economic meltdown during that period. Thanks for posting! Definitely deserving of another majority--I can't imagine how that could have been achieved with Ignatieff or Mulcair practicing their malfeasance during that same time.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> As for Youngs 40 year old child support case, yeah, anything, ANYTHING dear god to try and discredit and save our dear holy oil sands. Even the Canadian government as far as I know hasn't stooped quite that low...


His attitude toward his own children reflects only on his character. That he remains a political figure to you is your own problem.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> That's pretty damned good, considering the world's economic meltdown during that period. Thanks for posting! Definitely deserving of another majority--I can't imagine how that could have been achieved with Ignatieff or Mulcair practicing their malfeasance during that same time.


While I am not a fan of Mr. Harper, it is hard to disagree that his government has been both lucky and fairly effective running the country. I can't say the same about the Ontario Liberals.

I have always taken the stance that I don't vote people "in" I vote them "out". Other than the normal scandals that all government seem to have the longer they are in power, I would say Canada has faired very well under their watch.

Ontario could never say the same under the Liberals and I am a liberal.

The old chestnut that I usually bring up in these threads is term limits...if we had them history would paint a different picture on Mr. Harper than it might if he wins the next election......I think he is running dry, building the legacy ( which I am opposed to be leaders in general )... As they should worry about our legacy not theirs. I think it is time for him to go. Problem is he hasn't effectively groomed a replacement In my opinion.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> While I am not a fan of Mr. Harper, it is hard to disagree that his government has been both lucky and fairly effective running the country. I can't say the same about the Ontario Liberals.
> 
> I have always taken the stance that I don't vote people "in" I vote them "out". Other than the normal scandals that all government seem to have the longer they are in power, I would say Canada has faired very well under their watch.
> 
> Ontario could never say the same under the Liberals and I am a liberal.
> 
> The old chestnut that I usually bring up in these threads is term limits...if we had them history would paint a different picture on Mr. Harper than it might if he wins the next election......I think he is running dry, building the legacy ( which I am opposed to be leaders in general )... As they should worry about our legacy not theirs. I think it is time for him to go. Problem is he hasn't effectively groomed a replacement In my opinion.


Interesting points, Rp. Should it be PM Harper's role to "groom" a replacement/successor or should this be the task of the Conservative Party or the people of Canada?

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting points, Rp. Should it be PM Harper's role to "groom" a replacement/successor or should this be the task of the Conservative Party or the people of Canada?
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


It's the responsibility of the party. However, in Canada, the mechanism itself almost always involves becoming part of government.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> The only only desperate thing I'am seeing here is your attempt to somehow discredit Levant's video. I don't think a first nation band making 250,000,000mil (yeah quarter of a billion) a year from the oil companies needs Neil Young to raise any money for them.
> 
> Watch the video again and try to retain the content or disprove it.


Why listen to anyone else, when Neil Young is pontificating?


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> While I am not a fan of Mr. Harper, it is hard to disagree that his government has been both lucky and fairly effective running the country. I can't say the same about the Ontario Liberals.
> 
> I have always taken the stance that I don't vote people "in" I vote them "out". Other than the normal scandals that all government seem to have the longer they are in power, I would say Canada has faired very well under their watch.
> 
> Ontario could never say the same under the Liberals and I am a liberal.
> 
> The old chestnut that I usually bring up in these threads is term limits...if we had them history would paint a different picture on Mr. Harper than it might if he wins the next election......I think he is running dry, building the legacy ( which I am opposed to be leaders in general )... As they should worry about our legacy not theirs. I think it is time for him to go. Problem is he hasn't effectively groomed a replacement In my opinion.


Pretty damn lucky is right. They inherited a well balanced budget for years running, so they can squander and spend like they have now for some time. Unfortunately for them (and us) its starting to catch up to them and likely we'll see the effects of their slash and burn some years down the road.

Ontario, well that's another story. The trouble here is that the alternatives have never been good, and the far right factions in the PC party have turned off voters form voting out the liberals, but they don't quite get that. I think it's possible if the backlash is strong enough, that the NDP may see a larger benefit.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Pretty damn lucky is right. They inherited a well balanced budget for years running, so they can squander and spend like they have now for some time.


Unfortunately, they no longer have CPP to pillage and claim the budget has been balanced. 

Thankfully they didn't spend as much as Ignatieff demanded they spend.


----------



## groovetube

Yeah I know you tend to live in the 'they woulda they coulda' sort of world on this one, but the facts are facts, this government spent more than any in history, grew government bigger than any in history, and we so far, likely haven't gotten the full story on their slash and burn.

Personally, I'm resent that fact that the scientists that are being paid with MY tax dollars, have been silenced, mainly for Harper and his buddies benefit, and they have deemed it necessary to slash and cut out the research and monitoring of how things affect our water, land, and air. We may have different priorities macfury, but spending many millions more to help companies get richer extracting our resources with this dangling of "jobs!!!" even handing 22 million for an ad campaign for industries with trillions of their own...

Let's remember, it's the conservatives who spent us into the biggest deficit in history, and it was the last conservative government who spent us into a bad financial position. And that's that facts. Not 'woulda coulda' nonsense.


----------



## Macfury

Those were the _Progressive_ Conservatives, who shared the bad habits of other progressives.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Those were the _Progressive_ Conservatives, who shared the bad habits of other progressives.


ohhhhh, they were _progressive_. Well that explains er, everything. :lmao:

I guess since the current conservatives have spent even more and made government the biggest ever, they must be, er uber progressive? Or is that what they mean by, '_new_ conservatives'?

It's all in the brand I guess...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ohhhhh, they were _progressive_. Well that explains er, everything. :lmao:
> 
> I guess since the current conservatives have spent even more and made government the biggest ever, they must be, er uber progressive? Or is that what they mean by, '_new_ conservatives'?
> 
> It's all in the brand I guess...


I don't expect you to do any work comparing the numbers. Enjoy your support for Mulcair!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I don't expect you to do any work comparing the numbers. Enjoy your support for Mulcair!


And nor you it seems, enjoy your support for biggest government and spending ever! :lmao:


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting points, Rp. Should it be PM Harper's role to "groom" a replacement/successor or should this be the task of the Conservative Party or the people of Canada?
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


As he is the party leader in think it shoulx be him.


----------



## groovetube

Payroll taxes up despite low-tax claims by Jim Flaherty | Toronto Star
Wasn't there a time when the conservatives railed on the liberals for using EI funds to balance the budget and said the EI was too high?

Payroll taxes are up, meaning Harper and co have actually raised taxes on working Canadians to help eliminate the deficit, while they gave a big load of cash to the corporations, who simply gobbled it and hoarded it.

Anyone want to promote these guys as for the people and tax cutters? Bend over...


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> As he is the party leader in think it shoulx be him.


If people have faith in a top down system, the leader grooming the next in line, should fit that paradigm.

In a democratic system the group should pick the next leader by majority vote.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Payroll taxes up despite low-tax claims by Jim Flaherty | Toronto Star
> Wasn't there a time when the conservatives railed on the liberals for using EI funds to balance the budget and said the EI was too high?
> 
> Payroll taxes are up, meaning Harper and co have actually raised taxes on working Canadians to help eliminate the deficit, while they gave a big load of cash to the corporations, who simply gobbled it and hoarded it.
> 
> Anyone want to promote these guys as for the people and tax cutters? Bend over...


When you rely upon repeating a message, often enough and long enough, facts become irrelevant...now who else employed that strategy? Hmmm!


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> As he is the party leader in think it shoulx be him.


This is very, very far from the norm in Canada.

Most leaders of political parties seem to 'pop up out of nowhere' and certainly are far from being ‘groomed by the leader’.

Consider these alone, among many more provincially in other provinces than Alberta:

Stéphane Dion
Thomas Mulcair
Kim Campbell
Ed Stelmach
Alison Redford


----------



## groovetube

As well, I'm not sure that Paul Martin was exactly groomed to be leader by Chretien.


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> When you rely upon repeating a message, often enough and long enough, facts become irrelevant...now who else employed that strategy? Hmmm!


<in my best Arnold Horshack> Oooo! Oooo! Oooo! I know!

Global Warmists!!!!


----------



## Rps

BigDL said:


> If people have faith in a top down system, the leader grooming the next in line, should fit that paradigm.
> 
> In a democratic system the group should pick the next leader by majority vote.


I agree, but we do not have a conventional democracy ( as understood by the general public ). Within party politics it is only democratic to the extent that those within vote. As for elections, yes we have a process which we vote a party in, but we do not elect its leader, only the party, and by extension the Prime Minister. In the U.S. System there is a combination of party voting and public voting for the leader.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> This is very, very far from the norm in Canada.
> 
> Most leaders of political parties seem to 'pop up out of nowhere' and certainly are far from being ‘groomed by the leader’.
> 
> Consider these alone, among many more provincially in other provinces than Alberta:
> 
> Stéphane Dion
> Thomas Mulcair
> Kim Campbell
> Ed Stelmach
> Alison Redford


Sinc, i can"t speak for many on your list, but I would bet Brian groomed the ill fated Kim, and that's how she got elected leader.....but not elected Prime Minister....she couldn't distance herself fast enough from him.....much like the recent, and I think short term run of our Ontario Liberal leader.


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> As well, I'm not sure that Paul Martin was exactly groomed to be leader by Chretien.


Maybe but Chretien certainly was, and I'm not so sure Martin wasn"t. Remember my comments were "should be" not that they actually do.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> I agree, but we do not have a conventional democracy ( as understood by the general public ). Within party politics it is only democratic to the extent that those within vote. As for elections, yes we have a process which we vote a party in, but we do not elect its leader, only the party, and by extension the Prime Minister. In the U.S. System there is a combination of party voting and public voting for the leader.


Neither here or in the USofA do we have true democratic votes to elect legislators.

At least in the Party system here a leader is voted in by 50% plus one. I used to think this was a good idea. 

Starting with (PET) Trudeau's and with increasing magnitude up to Mr. Harper's abuse of the power of the PMO, I now believe the Prime Minister should be chosen by the caucus only, to rebalance the power on Parliament Hill.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Sinc, i can"t speak for many on your list, but I would bet Brian groomed the ill fated Kim, and that's how she got elected leader.....but not elected Prime Minister....she couldn't distance herself fast enough from him.....much like the recent, and I think short term run of our Ontario Liberal leader.


I agree on Kim--hand picked. Martin was perhaps groomed, but not chosen.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Sinc, i can"t speak for many on your list, but I would bet Brian groomed the ill fated Kim, and that's how she got elected leader.....but not elected Prime Minister....she couldn't distance herself fast enough from him.....much like the recent, and I think short term run of our Ontario Liberal leader.





Rps said:


> Maybe but Chretien certainly was, and I'm not so sure Martin wasn"t. Remember my comments were "should be" not that they actually do.


I don't agree with your notion the current leader should groom the next party leader and I also don't agree that it has happened historically.

First of all for the current leader to groom a potential incoming leader is anti-democratic. The notion reminds of totalitarian states where they try and set up a dynasty and maintain control over who leads the country. 

Secondly I don't see how it is feasibly possible to do so as it is not MPs or Cabinet who decide who is the party leader (except as an interim leader) as it is the party membership who decide by voting for their leader.

As has been mentioned by SINC there are also in many cases people from outside of Cabinet or elected MPs that actually run for the leadership as well, so in those cases there can be no grooming by the incumbent leader. 

There is also the fact that there are "camps" within the caucus and within the party membership who support different potential candidates, i.e. they don't all see eye-to-eye on who should be the new leader. So the only way a candidate could be groomed by the current leader is if there was some consensus as to who should be the new leader and there almost never is.

A given leader can and certainly does have his perceived "stars" in his caucus but that doesn't mean that they are in anyway being groomed to become the next leader. They are simply given positions of significance because the leader finds them to be extremely competent not only with in the given roles as Ministers or Critics but because the are extremely "electable" i.e. they are great politicians and that can even include something as mundane as being great fundraisers.

I could go on but in the end there are just too many variables when it comes to how and why a new leader comes into being for an incumbent leader to even bother to try and groom someone for the role. Not to mention IMO it *should not* be his role to be a "king maker". 

As for your suggestion that Chretien or any other leader was groomed to be an incoming leader I really see no evidence for it. People do their jobs and if the do them well, then like cream they will rise to the top and this is how it should be and not at the preference of the current leader.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Neither here or in the USofA do we have true democratic votes to elect legislators.
> 
> At least in the Party system here a leader is voted in by 50% plus one. I used to think this was a good idea.
> 
> Starting with (PET) Trudeau's and with increasing magnitude up to Mr. Harper's abuse of the power of the PMO, I *now believe the Prime Minister should be chosen by the caucus only*, to rebalance the power on Parliament Hill.


I cannot more strongly disagree and it would in no way achieve your stated desire of somehow balancing power on Parliament Hill, in fact it would do exactly the opposite it would just turn the power on it's head, where camps within caucus would effectively set up a puppet leader to do their bidding. A leaders job is to lead and not to be subject to the whim of caucus.

It could/would IMO become very quickly a matter of the tail wagging the dog with constant infighting, not to mention that the notion is simply anti-democratic where a dramatically reduced number of people (200 or so people at tops) get to decide who is the Prime Minister. It is a very bad idea IMO.


----------



## eMacMan

I am going to somewhat disagree that either Canada or the US has a democracy.

Certainly not a representative democracy. In a representative democracy the job of the representative is to represent his constituents views to the government. In Canada going back at least to the Trudeau era and most likely long before that, the representatives job has been to force the governments, or his parties, views down the throats of their constituents. 

Witness the latest revival of the domestic spying bill C-30 currently on deck as C-13. Even the dimmest bulbs on the con string recognize this bill as being nothing short of pure evil, yet here it is back again. A true democracy would have no need for such powers, and would even recognize such a bill as being a big time threat to democracy.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *I am going to somewhat disagree that either Canada or the US has a democracy.*
> 
> Certainly not a representative democracy. In a representative democracy the job of the representative is to represent his constituents views to the government. In Canada going back at least to the Trudeau era and most likely long before that, the representatives job has been to force the governments, or his parties, views down the throats of their constituents.
> 
> Witness the latest revival of the domestic spying bill C-30 currently on deck as C-13. Even the dimmest bulbs on the con string recognize this bill as being nothing short of pure evil, yet here it is back again. A true democracy would have no need for such powers, and would even recognize such a bill as being a big time threat to democracy.


Of course they are democracies. People get to vote to decide who their leaders and representatives are, that is democracy in essence although not in detail.

Are all democracies the same? Of course not and nor should they be as it is up to the people in the varying countries of the world to determine what their democracy "looks like".

Just because neither Canada or the US fit your own personal ideal of what democracy *should be* (you will get at a thousand different variants when it comes to that), does not mean they are not democratic.

Democracy is a heuristic notion that is in constant flux. Democracy was a notion born in ancient Greece. Do the varying democracies around the world today bare any resemblance to the first Grecian notion of democracy? Not much.

The world is an ever changing place as are the constructs that we create to govern ourselves.

Just out of curiosity, since you you feel that neither Canada or the US are democracies, based on your own personal opinions and proclivities, where in the world do you think that democracy exists today?


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Maybe but Chretien certainly was, and I'm not so sure Martin wasn"t. Remember my comments were "should be" not that they actually do.


Ah, an important distinction and one I missed. Sorry about that.


----------



## MacDoc

A walk in the snow for Herr Harper perhaps...?

More see Trudeau as excellent prime minister than Harper: poll - Politics - CBC News

Our PM seems to have pissed people off.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nanana NANANANA NANANANA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUQl55aCBR8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## FeXL

MacDoc said:


> A walk in the snow for Herr Harper perhaps...?
> 
> More see Trudeau as excellent prime minister than Harper: poll - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Our PM seems to have pissed people off.


CBC News? No vested interest or bias there.

All Canada needs is a northern version of the dope smoking Charlie Foxtrot south of 49.

Oh, just a reminder, you've some homework over on the Science Thread & GHG Thread that requires attention...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> CBC News? No vested interest or bias there.
> 
> 
> 
> All Canada needs is a northern version of the dope smoking Charlie Foxtrot south of 49.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, just a reminder, you've some homework over on the Science Thread & GHG Thread that requires attention...



Yuk yuk


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> A walk in the snow for Herr Harper perhaps...?
> 
> More see Trudeau as excellent prime minister than Harper: poll - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Our PM seems to have pissed people off.


You're having fever dreams again, Maccy D. Most of the people voting in that poll weren't even alive when that old fool Trudeau was PM.

Let's hope there's still snow for PMs to walk in next year--given the alarming rate of global warming.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> You're having fever dreams again, Maccy D. Most of the people voting in that poll weren't even alive when that old fool Trudeau was PM.



And the rest remember Stanfield or Joe.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And the rest remember Stanfield or Joe.


They've just been told a lot of tall tales about Justin's daddy and they are hoping for some sort of magic to take place. It didn't happen the first time, folks.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> They've just been told a lot of tall tales about Justin's daddy and they are hoping for some sort of magic to take place. It didn't happen the first time, folks.



Certainly isn't happening under the current occupant. Time to change the sheets or at least clean them.


----------



## MacDoc

Yeah definitely hard to get the oily residue out....might be better to burn them


----------



## groovetube

With the amount of self congratulating going on perhaps burning those sheets is definitely best.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Yeah definitely hard to get the oily residue out....might be better to burn them


Harper has been dismantling the "social safety hammock" for some time. I agree. Time to burn it and make some real progress!


----------



## groovetube

Yeah instead he's created an even bigger one for fat cats and his ministers running around spending millions on ah, gazebos.


----------



## screature

Just when I thought there was some intelligent discussion going on here in this thread (relating back to Rps' posts) it goes to hell in a hand cart.

Same as it ever was I guess. 

Same old, same old. Nothing new from the usual suspects, just the incessant blame game and I mean it on both sides of the fence.

IMO it is time to move on and change the channel.

How about instead of linking to the latest story denouncing the government or the opposition we actually post some ideas that are constructive?

We certainly won't all agree as to what is constructive but it might make for a nice change... at least for a little while.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Harper has been dismantling the "social safety hammock" for some time.


And that will be his undoing.

More see Trudeau as excellent prime minister than Harper: poll - Politics - CBC News


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> And that will be his undoing.
> 
> More see Trudeau as excellent prime minister than Harper: poll - Politics - CBC News


I guess posting it once was not enough or is that desperation?

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1201.html#post1605986


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> I guess posting it once was not enough or is that desperation?/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Just simple positive reinforcement.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> SINC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess posting it once was not enough or is that desperation?/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Just simple positive reinforcement.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, Trudeau _is_ simple.
Click to expand...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> skippythebushkangaroo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, Trudeau _is_ simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He does come across as naive at times. But he's sure thrown a wrench into Harper's goal of the Cons becoming the Natural Governing Party. Mind you Harper is responsible for engineering his own downward spiral.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the House coming back.
Click to expand...


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He does come across as naive at times.


Naive? Try bumble-brained. Stupid. Ineffectual.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> But he's sure thrown a wrench into Harper's goal of the Cons becoming the Natural Governing Party. Mind you Harper is responsible for engineering his own downward spiral.


There is no "Natural Governing Party" and never will be. Harper realizes this. It's a ridiculous concept invented by the Liberals--who certainly became lazy believing in it.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> I guess posting it once was not enough or is that desperation?
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1201.html#post1605986


My goodness you're persnickety in the morning.

My apologies. I'm not as heavily invested in this thread as you are.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I'm not as heavily invested in this thread as you are.


Translation: I do not bother reading the thread before I post.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Translation: I do not bother reading the thread before I post.


Can you blame me? Have you ever read your posts?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Naive? Try bumble-brained. Stupid. Ineffectual.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no "Natural Governing Party" and never will be. Harper realizes this. It's a ridiculous concept invented by the Liberals--who certainly became lazy believing in it.


I recall all kinds of names and slams for Harper at one too.

But the truth is Trudeau is building, and while the conservatives are howling and demanding he release policy, I think he should pull a Harper and wait until about a week before the election.

Prime minister Trudeau has a nice right to it. You may want to get used to it


----------



## Rps

BigDL said:


> Neither here or in the USofA do we have true democratic votes to elect legislators.
> 
> At least in the Party system here a leader is voted in by 50% plus one. I used to think this was a good idea.
> 
> Starting with (PET) Trudeau's and with increasing magnitude up to Mr. Harper's abuse of the power of the PMO, I now believe the Prime Minister should be chosen by the caucus only, to rebalance the power on Parliament Hill.


Actually, this would be more of an abuse of power. What should be done, outside of a Republic approach, is the citizens vote for the Party, then also cast a vote for the Prime Minister.


----------



## Rps

Screature, post 11997 is quite a good argument, but a few comments if I may. While it may be true that grooming might develop a dynasty or all most monarchy approach, parties tend to think in that way now......maintain being elected not governing. And yes, there are lobbies, but that is the same within any structure that relies on a promotion format. Outside of electing a Pope, I can't think of a more back room approach of electing a leader than that of a PM. As for grooming, Cretien held virtually every major post before becoming PM.....you may not call it grooming but I think he had the best resume when he took office, which is different from what he did with it when he got in there. 

What we really Ned to look at is a method that blends both the freedom of choice of a Republic and the political power of a Parliament system.

I always liked the idea of voting for our leader, so maybe we either vote for our members and the. Also vote for the PM, or we fix a date on the PM's term and we, the citizens, vote as if we are party members to put the leader in a position to run for PM.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Have you ever read your posts?


I read about half of them. I always know how they're going to turn out.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Cretien held virtually every major post before becoming PM.....you may not call it grooming but I think he had the best resume when he took office, which is different from what he did with it when he got in there.


I agree with screature here. Chretien wasn't being groomed--he just held career positions. The Libs were certainly not grooming him to become PM when Turner was nominated. I think many people in the 1970s would have be surprised that he became PM.



Rps said:


> I always liked the idea of voting for our leader, so maybe we either vote for our members and the. Also vote for the PM, or we fix a date on the PM's term and we, the citizens, vote as if we are party members to put the leader in a position to run for PM.


Heaven help us all--primaries?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I recall all kinds of names and slams for Harper at one too.


When did they ever stop?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I recall all kinds of names and slams for Harper at one too.
> 
> But the truth is Trudeau is building, and while the conservatives are howling and demanding he release policy, I think he should pull a Harper and wait until about a week before the election.
> 
> Prime minister Trudeau has a nice right to it. You may want to get used to it


Given that the younger idiot Trudeau, at a recent meet and greet in Okotoks, appeared to believe that FATCA was all about catching tax cheats he has a very long way to go with voters with any American ties.

For the record most Americans living in Canada could go back, do all their tax returns and owe the US Govt absolutely nothing in taxes. What FATCA is intended to do is to give the IRS the power to steal Americans (and even many non-Americans) financial accounts. They are demanding that banks turn over as routine, banking information that the Mounties would require a court order to obtain. They hope to use that info to establish that anyone the IRS has labeled an American may have failed to file, or made a mistake on any one of a myriad of "information" forms that each have penalties of up to $100,000 or half the amount per year in financial accounts. F(u)BARs and 8938s are just two examples. Both demand information on financial accounts that the Mounties would require a court order to obtain. 

BTW for the most part the 8938 simply duplicates the info on the F(u)BAR but one 8938 must be filed for every account. It is also a model of incomprehensibility. I doubt that it is possible to fill in that form to the satisfaction of the IRS. 

Once they have that info, it is then lodged in a data base. A data base which hacker reports claim is about as secure as the Obama Care data base. IOW very insecure. Beyond that the IRS openly claims they will share that info with just about any body on the planet. Certainly the NSA, HSA, CIA and FBI will have free access. 

It's bad enough that Canada's Minister of Finance is secretly negotiating with the IRS to enable this assault on Canadian Sovereignty. It is unforgivable that Canadians who will be robbed of their life savings are not being represented in these negotiations. 

Then the young idiot Trudeau comes along and parrots the absurd IRS talking points.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I agree with screature here. Chretien wasn't being groomed--he just held career positions. The Libs were certainly not grooming him to become PM when Turner was nominated. I think many people in the 1970s would have be surprised that he became PM.
> 
> 
> 
> Heaven help us all--primaries?


Yes and no.......but at least we would have a say and vote for not only the party leader but the PM. Maybe those countries that have a PM and a President might have a good idea. Having said that, we could keep running elections until one party has a 50 +1, may take two votes to do so......but that might be interesting if I was a Bloc leader.....


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Then the young idiot Trudeau comes along and parrots the absurd IRS talking points.


What else can he do? He doesn't have an original thought in his head. I was required through a work obligation to hear him speak. I wasn't looking forward to it for starters, but was shocked at how weak his speech was--largely hackneyed rah! rah! stuff strung together into something incomprehensible. He could articulate a belief in "Canadian values," and the "kind of Canada I believe in" but was unable to actually describe it.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Yes and no.......but at least we would have a say and vote for not only the party leader but the PM. Maybe those countries that have a PM and a President might have a good idea. Having said that, we could keep running elections until one party has a 50 +1, may take two votes to do so......but that might be interesting if I was a Bloc leader.....


I asked about primaries, since they're just another way for party members to select their candidate. It's only through mid-terms, at least in the US, that we get to see the spectacle of a president with both legs cut out from under him.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> When did they ever stop?


Exactly!


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, post 11997 is quite a good argument, *but a few comments if I may.* While it may be true that grooming might develop a dynasty or all most monarchy approach,* parties tend to think in that way now......maintain being elected not governing.* And yes, there are lobbies, but that is the same within any structure that relies on a promotion format. *Outside of electing a Pope, I can't think of a more back room approach of electing a leader than that of a PM.* As for grooming, *Cretien held virtually every major post before becoming PM.....you may not call it grooming but I think he had the best resume when he took office,* which is different from what he did with it when he got in there.
> 
> What we really Ned to look at is a method that blends both the freedom of choice of a Republic and the political power of a Parliament system.
> 
> I always liked the idea of voting for our leader, so maybe we either vote for our members and the. Also vote for the PM, or we fix a date on the PM's term and we, the citizens, vote as if we are party members to put the leader in a position to run for PM.


Of course you may, I always appreciate your comments even if I don't always agree with them.

Well I really don't see this being anything new. IMO it is the same as it always has been it is just that times have changed especially when it comes to means of communication and so the various parties can be more forceful than ever in the means in which they try to hold on to power.

I don't see it that way at all. The membership of parties decide on who is their leader and then the electorate at large votes for their individual members of Parliament. 

Some/many people cast their vote based on party lines regardless of who is the leader while others cast their vote based only on who is the leader, the recent surge in Liberal support comes to mind with the pretty boy JT at the helm. While others cast their vote based solely on the individual who they are voting for, to me this is the most desirable way to vote all things being equal but all things aren't so few people cast thier vote that way in Federal elections.

But it is always up to those who vote that decide who is the Prime Minister one way or the other. So IMO this is not at all anything like electing a Pope where it is only the Cardinals who have a say.

If it were like BigDL suggested that it should only be a party's caucus that determined the leader and thus ultimately who would become Prime Minister then I would agree that your comparison was appropriate, but that is not the case and so I cannot agree.

As I said people get appointed to their Ministries/Critic positions based on their competence and overall capabilities as politicians. Chretien demonstrated competence (at least to those who appointed him) in the various Ministry positions that he held and he also demonstrated that he was a good politician, i.e. he was able to get elected over and over again, he demonstrated that he was electable. 

So, also as I said before, the cream rises to the top. It isn't a matter of "grooming", trying to predetermine an outcome IMO.


----------



## Rps

Screature, the problem I see is the disconnect between democracy and a democratic process. Many would argue that we have a democratic process but we are not a democracy. Further, I have always struggled with the vote for the Member or the party approach so commonly held in this country. Although many have no issue with this. I think I would be happy if the upper chamber actually did something other than hold party line.....and if ever there was an undemocratic process the Senate is it..... We need a system that truly represents the people, but our government seems reluctant to redesign itself....and with the constitutional issues on the horizon I can see why. 

I was wondering your thoughts (and anyone else's) on this.... Let't dump the Senate as is and make the Lt Govs the Senators.....we would have 13 to review the laws with the GG as the Senate Leader.


----------



## SINC

Would not work. The positions of GG and LG are non-political and no monarch would ever approve of such a plan.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I was wondering your thoughts (and anyone else's) on this.... Let't dump the Senate as is and make the Lt Govs the Senators.....we would have 13 to review the laws with the GG as the Senate Leader.


Why would you want someone appointed by the provincial party in power to be the senator? That seems to replicate the problem on a provincial level. We can't elect the Lt. Governor, and their terms of appointment exceed that of most governments.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Why would you want someone appointed by the provincial party in power to be the senator? That seems to replicate the problem on a provincial level. We can't elect the Lt. Governor, and their terms of appointment exceed that of most governments.


But the L G and GG are useless positions and I was thinking if we have to have them give them a real job.....this could be a constitutional end round to senate reform or , we could have provincial senates and have their head sit as voting members as the national senate


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> *Screature, the problem I see is the disconnect between democracy and a democratic process. Many would argue that we have a democratic process but we are not a democracy.* Further, I have always struggled with the vote for the Member or the party approach so commonly held in this country. Although many have no issue with this. I think I would be happy if the upper chamber actually did something other than hold party line.....and if ever there was an undemocratic process the Senate is it..... We need a system that truly represents the people, but our government seems reluctant to redesign itself....and with the constitutional issues on the horizon I can see why.
> 
> *I was wondering your thoughts (and anyone else's) on this.... Let't dump the Senate as is and make the Lt Govs the Senators.....we would have 13 to review the laws with the GG as the Senate Leader.*


I think the disconnect that you perceive lies in how people define/understand what constitutes what it means to be democratic/a democracy.

As I mentioned before democracy is a heuristic notion that is in constant flux. Thus the rub lies in the interpretation of what is and isn't democratic.

All things cannot be democratic, it is simply realistically impossible. At some point we have to have individuals to make decisions, I really don't see how it can feasibly be any other way.

So we do our best to make things functionally as democratic as we can. I think that is what all good democracies do, try to make it so that there is a framework that represents the best interests of the majority of their citizens all the while looking after minorities rights. It is far from easy and there is no simple answer, that is why it is always in constant flux... as it should be. There should be very little that is written in stone.

Regarding dumping the Senate it is probably a better idea in theory than in practice. 

Quebec would not be in favour of it (it would require opening up the Constitution, which since Mulroney and his failed attempts, it is seen as being political dynamite and few are willing to go there) as they have a weighted position in the Senate, stemming from Confederation, thus they have greater power over legislation that is passed or not i.e. receiving Royal Assent or being sent back the House of Commons for amendment.

The GG IMO should absolutely not be the Leader of the Senate as he/she is the Royal representative and should have no influence/power over the Parliament of a modern Canada. For all intents and purposes he/she is just a figure head of the Crown and IMO that is the way it should be.

In fact when it comes to democratic reform I would be more inclined to eliminate the positions of GGs and LGs altogether.

But that would require amending the Constitution, thus I don't expect that will happen any time soon.


----------



## Macfury

In fact, truer democracy is possible, but most people don't really want it. If everyone could get on a Citizen's Internet and vote themselves $1,000 government payments, I'm afraid it would happen.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> In fact, truer democracy is possible, but most people don't really want it. If everyone could get on a Citizen's Internet and vote themselves $1,000 government payments, I'm afraid it would happen.


Hah.


----------



## mrjimmy

So much for the BOC being 'arm's length'. Interesting to see if someone blows the whistle on direct interference regarding Canada Post.

Dean Del Mastro, former Conservative MP, attacks Harper government over monetary policy | National Post


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> So much for the BOC being 'arm's length'.


That article doesn't suggest anything about collusion between the feds and the BoC. It simply accuses both Flaherty and the BoC of favouring a reduction in the value of the Canadian dollar.



mrjimmy said:


> Interesting to see if someone blows the whistle on direct interference regarding Canada Post.


Which interference would that be?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Authoritarian conservative but not a fascist*

Love it or hate it: Stephen Harper's Government is not Fascist


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*More grumblings about authoritarian rule*

Conservative MP challenges own government

Here comes the looney fringe again.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Love it or hate it: Stephen Harper's Government is not Fascist


That's a good article. I hope it dissuades people from making stupid pronouncements that are bereft of historical perspective.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Conservative MP challenges own government
> 
> Here comes the looney fringe again.


Nice catch!



> Mulcair later led off the first question period in six weeks with questions about the protests in Ukraine and the budget. He quickly followed up with numerous queries about the Senate scandal but, in the absence of any new revelations to work with, the attack lacked bite.


----------



## groovetube

Oh looook! A shiny ball!!! :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Oh looook! A shiny ball!!! :lmao:


What dos Mulcair's other ball look like?


----------



## groovetube

I don't know, but it appears you have yer eye on one!


----------



## Dr.G.

Video: Market View: Will this be Jim Flaherty's 'bupkes' budget? - The Globe and Mail

Bubkes is a Yiddish word that means "little beans" and is used to refer to something with little or no perceived value.


----------



## groovetube

Muslim group demands apology from Harper, chief spokesman over ‘terrorist' comment - The Globe and Mail

Oh oh. That whole intimidation thing is going to land Harper and co in court for libel.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Muslim group demands apology from Harper, chief spokesman over ‘terrorist' comment - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Oh oh. That whole intimidation thing is going to land Harper and co in court for libel.


I suspect it will never wind up in court, and no clear apology will be issued.


----------



## groovetube

I guess we'll see how it plays out. Either the Muslim group does have terrorist links and will back down, or Harper will have to apologize.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Muslim group demands apology from Harper, chief spokesman over ‘terrorist' comment - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Oh oh. That whole intimidation thing is going to land Harper and co in court for libel.


Given the number of Muslims living in Canada, if even 1/10th of 1% of them were terrorists, this nation would be awash in blood. 

The sign of incompetent/morally bankrupt leadership is the need to generate fear and hatred amongst its citizenry. Worked for Stalin, worked for Hitler, worked for Bush, and BO and clearly Harper is hoping it will continue working for him. 

While I would like to see Harper come up with really competent leadership, he obviously has chosen to follow the proven path.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*From the support the troops dept -*

Veterans say Fantino treated them with disrespect in meeting over VA office closures | CTV News

Some very strong words were directed at Fantino and Harper in the full presser. It could be a very interesting day for Julian.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Veterans say Fantino treated them with disrespect in meeting over VA office closures | CTV News
> 
> Some very strong words were directed at Fantino and Harper in the full presser. It could be a very interesting day for Julian.


from the comments:



> Stephen Harper stated during daily question period that "veterans will still be able to get everything they need from the 584 less-specialized Service Canada offices located across the country." Well let it be known that I was at the Charlottetown Service Canada office Monday morning at 11:00 hours and it was standing room only - every chair taken with approximately 50 individuals awaiting service. So where and when in this cluster was a veteran supposed to receive the equivalent service/response as the District Office? Pick a number.........


Remember when they accused the liberals of the cutbacks and not supporting our troops?



> Harper went on to say that the Conservative government has “vastly” increased the mental health services available to veterans.


Yes mr. Harper, that's why we're now hearing about a vet committing suicide now it seems every week or so, and we're hearing a completely different story from them.

Unbelievable.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> from the comments:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember when they accused the liberals of the cutbacks and not supporting our troops?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes mr. Harper, that's why we're now hearing about a vet committing suicide now it seems every week or so, and we're hearing a completely different story from them.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Sorry GT the Harpo Government clearly believes anything can be made believable to the Con corpse if you repeat the same lame talking point enough times.


----------



## i-rui

pretty ballsy move IMO



> "The Senate is broken and needs to be fixed," he said.
> 
> "The Senate was once referred to as a place of sober, second thought. A place that allows for reflective deliberation on legislation, in-depth studies into issues of import to the country, and, to a certain extent, provide a check and balance on the politically-driven House of Commons.
> 
> "It has become obvious that the party structure within the Senate interferes with these responsibilities."
> 
> Trudeau proposed the Senate should be made non-partisan, to better serve Canadians. He suggested an "open, transparent, non-partisan process" that would see all senators named to the Red Chamber sit as Independents.
> 
> "Instead of being separate from political, or electoral concerns, senators now must consider not just what’s best for their country, or their regions, but what’s best for their party," Trudeau said.
> 
> "At best, this renders the Senate redundant. At worst — and under Mr Harper we have seen it at its worst — it amplifies the prime minister’s power."


Justin Trudeau removes senators from Liberal caucus - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> pretty ballsy move IMO


Weird stagecraft IMO. It proves nothing and his "idea"would result in partisan senators who pretend not to have party affiliations.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> pretty ballsy move IMO
> 
> 
> 
> Justin Trudeau removes senators from Liberal caucus - Politics - CBC News


Indeed it is, not one that would be welcome amongst conservatives I'll bet


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Indeed it is, not one that would be welcome amongst conservatives I'll bet


Why would they care?


----------



## groovetube

it seems you do! :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

I see it as neutral--achieving nothing. Doesn't matter to me. I guess you haven't thought it through yet.


----------



## groovetube

That's because you've appeared to have overthought this. Thinking that Trudeau's move is anything more than a symbolic move signalling his future intentions should he be elected into government, is kinda like the kid that gets a gift certificate, but whines he just got a worthless piece of paper.


----------



## Macfury

That post makes no sense at all. Justin is like a kid?


----------



## groovetube

you like that phrase 'your _______ makes no sense" doncha


----------



## Macfury

It's a great phrase for when a post makes no sense.


----------



## MacDoc

*Trudeau kneecaps Harper*

Harper had his window to make the broken senate an election issue.

Trudeau just kneecapped him on it and left Harper holding a very smelly bag that he loaded up.



> UPDATED* Liberal leader says senators not welcome in caucus*
> 
> Justin Trudeau to remove senators from Liberal caucus 30:18
> Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has removed senators from his party's caucus and has declared there is no longer any such thing as a Liberal Senator, in a surprise move derided as a "smokescreen" by the Conservatives and applauded by some of the senators themselves.


CBC News - Latest Canada, World, Entertainment and Business News

Good political ploy, not sure how it resonates but leaves Harpo with a broken plank


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc, you are late to the dance again.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> pretty ballsy move IMO
> 
> 
> 
> Justin Trudeau removes senators from Liberal caucus - Politics - CBC News





MacDoc said:


> Harper had his window to make the broken senate an election issue.
> 
> Trudeau just kneecapped him on it and left Harper holding a very smelly bag that he loaded up.
> 
> 
> 
> CBC News - Latest Canada, World, Entertainment and Business News
> 
> Good political ploy, not sure how it resonates but leaves Harpo with a broken plank


Admittedly it makes for good optics but in fact changes nothing. The 32 Senators are still Liberals with the same proclivities that they had yesterday.

This is simply a decoy to try and pretend that JT is doing something substantial when in fact he is doing nothing at all.

If anyone thinks that this will change the way these Senators vote they are just gullible, they will still vote as a block.

JT's political masters thinly veiled false attempt at Senate reform is just a ruse that only the politically naive will think as being some substantial change.

I think he/his handlers fear the AG audit on Senators expenses is going to reveal some pretty bad results regarding Liberal Senators expense reporting so his handlers are trying to get ahead of the report so that they can claim something like this, "This is really bad but they are no longer part of our Caucus, they are "independent" Senators so this does not reflect on the Liberal Party Caucus." 

Hopefully, thoughtful Canadians will see through this smoke and mirrors move/deception.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> If anyone thinks that this will change the way these Senators vote they are just gullible, they will still vote as a block,


It would have been better if he instructed his caucus to vote for an elected senate and then delivered those votes as soon as possible. If Harper had failed to deliver enough Conservative senate votes to pass such a measure, even with the help of the Liberal senators, it would be a fiasco. Now THAT would have been ballsy.



screature said:


> I think he/his handlers fear the AG audit on Senators expenses is going to reveal some pretty bad results regarding Liberal Senators expense reporting so his handlers are trying to get ahead of the report so that they can claim something like this, "This is really bad but they are no longer part of our Caucus, they are "independent" Senators so this does not reflect on the Liberal Party Caucus."


Only the NDP can use that sword on the senate without cutting themselves.


----------



## SINC

Makes you wonder what Trudeau is smoking . . . Oh, wait


----------



## groovetube

Fantino accuses opposition of 'fear-mongering' over veterans' office closures | CTV News

Man, what a bumbling fool. What he really means I guess is the vets are fear-mongering. Unless he's simply not listening to them at all, which apparently seems pretty likely.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Fantino accuses opposition of 'fear-mongering' over veterans' office closures | CTV News
> 
> Man, what a bumbling fool. What he really means I guess is the vets are fear-mongering. Unless he's simply not listening to them at all, which apparently seems pretty likely.


A rather spectacular performance from the STAR CANDIDATE :roll eyes: from the Constituency of Vaughan.

Conservative star candidate Julian Fantino take... | Peterborough Examiner


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Fantino accuses opposition of 'fear-mongering' over veterans' office closures | CTV News
> 
> Man, what a bumbling fool. What he really means I guess is the vets are fear-mongering. Unless he's simply not listening to them at all, which apparently seems pretty likely.


He certainly isn't the greatest orator in world, but what he is talking about (and has a valid point) is PSAC (who is doing the fear mongering) who are using veterans as puppets to try to protect their jobs.

Shameful.


----------



## groovetube

It seems the vets themselves are telling a different story screature. It isn't as if the PSAC is putting words in their mouths.

I'm not under any illusions that governments have had a great track record in "supporting our troops", but discounting the vets themselves isn't respectful imo.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> He certainly isn't the greatest orator in world, but what he is talking about (and has a valid point) is PSAC (who is doing the fear mongering) who are using veterans as puppets to try to protect their jobs.
> 
> Shameful.


Uh given the cons endless attempts to sneak Bill C 30 now called C 13 (domestic spy bill) past the electorate, and the equally consistent fear mongering accompanying these abusive attempts, I would suggest the Harpolites should not try to tar others with that fear monger brush.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> It seems the vets themselves are telling a different story screature. It isn't as if the PSAC is putting words in their mouths.
> 
> I'm not under any illusions that governments have had a great track record in "supporting our troops", but discounting the vets themselves isn't respectful imo.


The vets are telling their stories based on scripting provided by PSAC (that is a known fact) on the way it has been before, not how the new system will work. 

The vets do not know if they will be better or worse serviced by the new structure. It is just the FUD being spread by PSAC to save their jobs and they are using these poor vets as puppets to push their agenda to try and save their jobs.

It seems to me that if you have an employee at Canada Government Service Offices of which there are over 250 across the nation (as opposed to 8) that better serves a local community than it does to have 8 centralized offices. 

It is PSAC spreading FUD to protect their jobs cut and dry.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Uh given the cons endless attempts to sneak Bill C 30 now called C 13 (domestic spy bill) past the electorate, and the equally consistent fear mongering accompanying these abusive attempts, I would suggest the Harpolites should not try to tar others with that fear monger brush.


Blah, blah, blah... go bang a drum.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Blah, blah, blah... go bang a drum.


Yup, was time to tell him. Again and again and again and . . . He just can't STHU with the schtick. :clap:


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Yup, was time to tell him. Again and again and again and . . . He just can't STHU with the schtick. :clap:


Uh the last three times around even you and MF agreed that Bill C30 now C13 was an incredibly bad idea. The thing is when the cons show their dumb side (that would be of course be condumbs) the con faithful need to step up and tell them just how dumb their latest old idea is.

In this case even Harpo himself recognized it as a very bad bill when the Liberals tried to stick it to us. Is the man showing any other signs of dementia?????


----------



## SINC

Sure we did, but you and gt both using the "Harpo and Harpolites" crap show such disdain for the system that it is hard to read. Want to avoid stuff like this, refer to Harper as Harper might be a start. There is nothing positive about using the current terms.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Sure we did, but you and gt both using the "Harpo and Harpolites" crap show such disdain for the system that it is hard to read. Want to avoid stuff like this, refer to Harper as Harper might be a start. There is nothing positive about using the current terms.


To be fair I now refer to Trudeau as the Young Idiot Trudeau, just as generations of Albertans referred to his dad the Idiot Trudeau. He earned this title at an Okotoks meet and greet by referring to FATCA as a measure to catch tax evaders. The IRS at best hopes to gather in under a billion $s worldwide with this assault on other nations sovereignty. The real prize are those Draconian penalties for not filling in or incorrectly filling in F(u)BARS and other informational forms that have absolutely no bearing on how much tax an American owes.

Still focusing on an irrelevant part of a post is a well established diversionary tactic no matter whom one worships.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Uh the last three times around even you and MF agreed that Bill C30 now C13 was an incredibly bad idea. The thing is when the cons show their dumb side (that would be of course be condumbs) the con faithful need to step up and tell them just how dumb their latest old idea is.
> 
> In this case even Harpo himself recognized it as a very bad bill when the Liberals tried to stick it to us. Is the man showing any other signs of dementia?????


Relevance in posting my dear friend....

You refer to C-30 when it is completely irrelevant to the post at hand as you do with FACTA.

If you think they are such significant stand alone issues, as it appears you do, then why not start stand alone threads based on those issues.

As it is now when we are on a completely different topic it seems that you often feel compelled to weave in C-30 or FACTA related issues that actually in fact having nothing to do with the issue being discussed, except in perhaps some peripheral, extrapolated/FUD sort of way.

Why are you afraid of C-30? Why are you afraid of FACTA? 

Personally.

Not generalizations or dogma or theory. How do these legislations affect you personally and thus why you harp on them continually?

I would really like to know. As you have never mentioned specifics when it comes to your frequent protestations.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The vets are telling their stories based on scripting provided by PSAC (that is a known *fact*) on the way it has been before, not how the new system will work.


do you have a link that supports the "fact" that these stories are being scripted?

also, i have to say I'm disappointed that the right's spin on the narrative has turned in to these gullible poor veterans are being manipulated by the union, instead of how can we best care and support them.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> do you have a link that supports the "fact" that these stories are being scripted?
> 
> also, i have to say I'm disappointed that the right's spin on the narrative has turned in to these gullible poor veterans are being manipulated by the union, instead of how can we best care and support them.


Screature already said that he believes the vets will get better care under the new system.


----------



## i-rui

then IMO screature should perhaps focus on how exactly they'll get that better care instead of portraying the vets as rubes.

it does the veterans a disservice to portray them as easy marks.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> The vets are telling their stories based on scripting provided by PSAC (that is a known fact) on the way it has been before, not how the new system will work.
> 
> The vets do not know if they will be better or worse serviced by the new structure. It is just the FUD being spread by PSAC to save their jobs and they are using these poor vets as puppets to push their agenda to try and save their jobs.
> 
> It seems to me that if you have an employee at Canada Government Service Offices of which there are over 250 across the nation (as opposed to 8) that better serves a local community than it does to have 8 centralized offices.
> 
> It is PSAC spreading FUD to protect their jobs cut and dry.


Screature that's very disrespectful of the vets who are, speaking out. Never mind the ones who have committed suicide. I'm pretty sure the PSAC didn't script -that-.

The treatment of vets is beyond disgraceful, and Fantino just a disaster in shoe leather on this. It just gets worse as it goes.

Simply no excuse for this at all. I'm a little shocked you would disregard anything the vets have said, and call their voices merely 'scripted'. 

Really?


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> do you have a link that supports the "fact" that these stories are being scripted?
> 
> also, i have to say I'm disappointed that the right's spin on the narrative has turned in to these gullible poor veterans are being manipulated by the union, instead of how can we best care and support them.


As I said, I can't believe this is being said.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Screature that's very disrespectful of the vets who are, speaking out. Never mind the ones who have committed suicide. I'm pretty sure the PSAC didn't script -that-.
> 
> The treatment of vets is beyond disgraceful, and Fantino just a disaster in shoe leather on this. It just gets worse as it goes.
> 
> Simply no excuse for this at all. I'm a little shocked you would disregard anything the vets have said, and call their voices merely 'scripted'.
> 
> Really?


It can't possibly be scripted because...uh... groovetube supports the vets. This is what I'm getting from your post.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> do you have a link that supports the "fact" that these stories are being scripted?
> 
> also, i have to say I'm disappointed that the right's spin on the narrative has turned in to these gullible poor veterans are being manipulated by the union, instead of how can we best care and support them.


Sorry I don't have a link because it happened in a scrum that I was witness to where PSAC members were prompting vets as to what to say. I would have thought any competent reporter would have noted it but I can't find a link that validates my claim.

So I apologize as it is only a known fact to me and others present to see and hear it happen and so it is just hearsay to anyone else. No "journalist" reported it so it didn't happen My bad..

But it is simple math that the vets will be better served by over 250 points of service relative to 8.

Not to mention the dollar investment which is more than any other government has ever provided to serve vets.

That *some* vets are concerned is of no surprise as change is not something that all people accept very well. Especially when FUD is being spread by a powerful union willing to take advantage of others for their own potential benefit.

Once again, shame on PSAC for using these vets as essentially as "props" to support their own cause and potential gain. It is disgraceful.

Oh and BTW groove these changes have nothing to do with why those vets committed suicide, they weren't even implemented at the time they committed suicide. Shame on you and anyone else for suggesting it... that is just pure political BS being touted for partisan gain based on the backs of the deaths of people who had serious problems that they were not able to cope with.

Shameful... once again!


----------



## MacDoc

*to the point*


----------



## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


>


Just wait ............... PM Harper will eject all Liberals from the House of Commons. Set .......... game ............. match. "Just watch me ....."

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Skewered!*

Western think tank praises Trudeau, disses PM - National | Globalnews.ca

See ya later Harper.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Western think tank praises Trudeau, disses PM - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> See ya later Harper.


PM Harper will abolish the House of Commons and rule by executive order. He shall be the ultimate Super Bowl Winner.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Western think tank praises Trudeau, disses PM - National | Globalnews.ca


The notion that this represents some sort of Liberal support in the West is a bit laughable, The CWF no longer wants an elected senate, they want it abolished because they see themselves as unfairly represented. So anything that humiliates senators is a good thing for them at this point:

From the CWF statement:



> We can leave it to the strategists to agonize over the political wisdom of Trudeau’s move...


In the meantime, the expelled Liberal senators are forming their own Liberal caucus. Guess that finishes Justin's brilliant stroke in just about 48 hours.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> The notion that this represents some sort of Liberal support in the West is a bit laughable, The CWF no longer wants an elected senate, they want it abolished because they see themselves as unfairly represented. So anything that humiliates senators is a good thing for them at this point:
> 
> From the CWF statement:
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime, the expelled Liberal senators are forming their own Liberal caucus. Guess that finishes Justin's brilliant stroke in just about 48 hours.


Way too soon to tell how this change is going to pan out. There's a full panel review on CBC Radio's the current discussing the complexities of the Liberals stance on the Senate. They're certainly getting all the media attention and to some degree they're setting the agenda. It's quite clever.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It can't possibly be scripted because...uh... groovetube supports the vets. This is what I'm getting from your post.


Of course that's what you're getting from my posts!

It explains your responses perfectly! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Sorry I don't have a link because it happened in a scrum that I was witness to where PSAC members were prompting vets as to what to say. I would have thought any competent reporter would have noted it but I can't find a link that validates my claim.
> 
> So I apologize as it is only a known fact to me and others present to see and hear it happen and so it is just hearsay to anyone else. No "journalist" reported it so it didn't happen My bad..
> 
> But it is simple math that the vets will be better served by over 250 points of service relative to 8.
> 
> Not to mention the dollar investment which is more than any other government has ever provided to serve vets.
> 
> That *some* vets are concerned is of no surprise as change is not something that all people accept very well. Especially when FUD is being spread by a powerful union willing to take advantage of others for their own potential benefit.
> 
> Once again, shame on PSAC for using these vets as essentially as "props" to support their own cause and potential gain. It is disgraceful.
> 
> Oh and BTW groove these changes have nothing to do with why those vets committed suicide, they weren't even implemented at the time they committed suicide. Shame on you and anyone else for suggesting it... that is just pure political BS being touted for partisan gain based on the backs of the deaths of people who had serious problems that they were not able to cope with.
> 
> Shameful... once again!


Shame on those suggesting that the PSAC is crippling what the vets are saying. I and I'm sure many people know lots of vets and can hear them speak. 

I fully realize the suicides were not part of this particular reason but I brought it up because it is all part of the larger issue of the government simply shutting off the vets, not listening to them at all, and doing what it feels is best.

Perhaps listen less to what is happening in those scrums and pay attention to what's happening outside of the silly dance in the parliament's halls.

As the son of a vet, I get to hear plenty.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


> do you have a link that supports the "fact" that these stories are being scripted?
> 
> also, i have to say I'm disappointed that the right's spin on the narrative has turned in to these gullible poor veterans are being manipulated by the union, instead of how can we best care and support them.





i-rui said:


> then IMO screature should perhaps focus on how exactly they'll get that better care instead of portraying the vets as rubes.
> 
> it does the veterans a disservice to portray them as easy marks.





groovetube said:


> Screature that's very disrespectful of the vets who are, speaking out. Never mind the ones who have committed suicide. I'm pretty sure the PSAC didn't script -that-.
> 
> The treatment of vets is beyond disgraceful, and Fantino just a disaster in shoe leather on this. It just gets worse as it goes.
> 
> Simply no excuse for this at all. I'm a little shocked you would disregard anything the vets have said, and call their voices merely 'scripted'.
> 
> Really?





groovetube said:


> As I said, I can't believe this is being said.


It must be very hard for Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government and its supporters to understand that the Vets have a strong relationship with the civil servants that work(ed), as of today, at the DVA.

A relationship built on care and respect between the Vets and workers at DVA.

My wife briefly dealt with a DVA worker before my Dad died back in 2007-2008. My wife was very impressed with the level of professionalism and care of my Dad's case worker.

Harper Conservatives rely on talking points and old chestnuts like _The UNION_ to make their points. That might work on some supporters (as seen frequently on this board.)

The PSAC supported the Vets with their struggle, financially and with moral support.

PSAC could not put the heart felt expressions into the mouths of our Vets for the DVA workers. The workers at DVA earned the loyalty of the Vets over the years and for good reason.

Stephen Harper the master planner has been outwitted lately on many fronts, mostly by his own doing. 

Young Trudeau did a nice move with his casting the Senators out of the Liberal Caucus. 

Mr. Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government is really looking old and tired, having old policies and tired ideas. 

The next election is only 1 year and 10 months away TICK, TICK, TICK!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Way too soon to tell how this change is going to pan out. There's a full panel review on CBC Radio's the current discussing the complexities of the Liberals stance on the Senate. They're certainly getting all the media attention and to some degree they're setting the agenda. It's quite clever.


They're getting attention from the media, because--by and large--the media is desperate for a Trudeau victory.

However, there is no apparent "next move" that makes this a strategy instead of a stunt. With the Liberal senators forming their own caucus, what's next? Still, I'll be interested to see if this goes anywhere.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> They're getting attention from the media, because--by and large--the media is desperate for a Trudeau victory.
> 
> However, there is no apparent "next move" that makes this a strategy instead of a stunt. With the Liberal senators forming their own caucus, what's next? Still, I'll be interested to see if this goes anywhere.


Oh! Everyone! The only reason the vets are getting any attention at all is because of the media and their conspiracy for a liberal victory! Well! This makes perfect sense, since, the vets really don't deserve any attention on their plight and are just pawns.

The squirming and disrespect of the vets just continues. 

It has nothing to do with the liberals macfury, because the liberals are also guilty of disregarding the vets in previous years if you have been paying any attention.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> My wife briefly dealt with a DVA worker before my Dad died back in 2007-2008. My wife was very impressed with the level of professionalism and care of my Dad's case worker.


One second-hand anecdote about one DVA worker. But screature, who said he saw the regrettable coaching of vets by PSAC workers first hand, can't be trusted?



BigDL said:


> PSAC could not put the heart felt expressions into the mouths of our Vets for the DVA workers.


Sure they could. You need to find vets who are on your side, then provide them with the script.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> One second-hand anecdote about one DVA worker. But screature, who said he saw the regrettable coaching of vets by PSAC workers first hand, can't be trusted?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they could. You need to find vets who are on your side, then provide them with the script.


One personal anecdote vs another! This must be like christmas for you macfury! :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Oh! Everyone! The only reason the vets are getting any attention at all is because of the media and their conspiracy for a liberal victory! Well! This makes perfect sense, since, the vets really don't deserve any attention on their plight and are just pawns.
> 
> The squirming and disrespect of the vets just continues.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the liberals macfury, because the liberals are also guilty of disregarding the vets in previous years if you have been paying any attention.



Stay with the program. I was referring to the senate.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Stay with the program. I was referring to the senate.




In any case, if I missed it, my mistake.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> One personal anecdote vs another! This must be like christmas for you macfury! :lmao:


Oh SNAP! :lmao::lmao: :clap:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> One personal anecdote vs another! This must be like christmas for you macfury! :lmao:


Why would it be like Christmas for me? I believe both screature and BigDL. The vets were likely scripted, although they agreed with the PSAC workers anyway, and the DVA worker probably treated BigDL's father well 10 years ago. These aren't mutually exclusive observations.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> In any case, if I missed it, my mistake.


gt seems the post before mf's was mine the majority of the post dealt with the Vets and PSAC. The personal anecdote referred to the situation of the vets.

Once again it is gt's fault for not staying with the program after one was Oh Snapped! :lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> gt seems the post before mf's was mine the majority of the post dealt with the Vets and PSAC. The personal anecdote referred to the situation of the vets.
> 
> Once again it is gt's fault for not staying with the program after one was Oh Snapped! :lmao::lmao:


The fact that I quoted jimbo's message regarding the Senate should have minimized confusion on both your parts.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> gt seems the post before mf's was mine the majority of the post dealt with the Vets and PSAC. The personal anecdote referred to the situation of the vets.
> 
> Once again it is gt's fault for not staying with the program after one was Oh Snapped! :lmao::lmao:


Truly quite the scandal!


----------



## eMacMan

Despite the attempted diversions, I was earlier referring to the fear monger tactics the current crop of crooks have been using to promote Bill C13 formerly known as C30 (anti kiddie Porn) formerly known.... originally put forth by the Liberals as an anti-terrorist bill.

This bill is an attempt to legalize domestic spying on Canadians. Thanks to the BC Civil Liberties folks we can now make a good guess as to why the Harper bunch are so anxious to pass this bill. Seems CSEC is already doing what they are attempting to legalize.

If they do squeeze this abomination past Parliament this time, and without very vocal opposition from the core con-verts it will pass, we can only hope that Canada's Supreme Court will toss it over a cliff on constitutional grounds. 



> VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwired - Oct 22, 2013) - The BC Civil Liberties Association (BCCLA) filed a lawsuit today against the Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) claiming that its broad and unchecked surveillance of Canadians is unconstitutional.
> 
> 
> 
> The lawsuit argues that two aspects of CSEC's operations violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms' protections against unreasonable search and seizure and infringe on free expression:
> 
> 
> The interception of the private communications of Canadians;
> The sweeping collection of metadata information produced by Canadians in their everyday activities online and through phone conversations.
> The lawsuit was filed in the B.C. Supreme Court and is the first challenge to the legality of CSEC's spying activities against Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> .....


SPYING IN CANADA: Civil Liberties Watchdog Sues Surveillance Agency Over Illegal Spying on Canadians - Yahoo Finance


----------



## FeXL

MacDoc said:


>


How?

I realize that asking MacDoc to justify anything he says is like trying to get milk from the hind tit, so if anybody wants to jump in here & explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

In the big picture, what do Justin's actions in the Senate change? Anyone?

I think the end result is more like the following cartoon but if anyone wants to have a go at it, feel free...

A great Chronicle Herald cartoon on Trudeau's senate move


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> A great Chronicle Herald cartoon on Trudeau's senate move


Nice one:


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> How?
> 
> I realize that asking MacDoc to justify anything he says is like trying to get milk from the hind tit, so if anybody wants to jump in here & explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> In the big picture, what do Justin's actions in the Senate change? Anyone?
> 
> I think the end result is more like the following cartoon but if anyone wants to have a go at it, feel free...
> 
> A great Chronicle Herald cartoon on Trudeau's senate move












Good one and to the point.

Here is a very good article by Chantal Hebert:

Under Trudeau’s system the Senate might roll over and let the Commons have its way: Hébert



> ...Under Trudeau’s scheme an errant senator would not be accountable to any elected official and no party would have to take responsibility for his or her actions.
> 
> Trudeau says he would look to the Order of Canada selection process for inspiration for a non-partisan appointment formula. That process may be at arm’s length but it is also opaque.
> 
> Recipients of the Order of Canada are not expected to do anything in exchange for the honour except perhaps to continue to be good at what they usually do. Senators on the other hand are constitutionally mandated to look over the shoulder of the elected House of Commons and decide whether to give its work their stamp of approval.
> 
> Under the Trudeau system the Senate might just roll over and let the elected house have its way with most legislation.
> 
> If it did not, its members would presumably base their decisions on their collective view of the national interest rather than on partisan considerations. But is that more legitimate than to be guided by the platform that a party has at least run by voters in an election?
> 
> Bottom line: installing an unaccountable meritocracy in the Senate — even as it stands to enhance the credibility of a discredited institution — sounds more like a prescription to circumvent Canada’s ailing parliamentary democracy than to mend it.


Even Stephen Dion who I dare say is just a tad more learned on these matters than Trudeau think Trudeau's formula for choosing senators is elitist and not very democratic.

Dion dissed non-partisan Senate appointment plan as “elitist…. not very democratic”



> Last November, shortly before Trudeau’s plan for independent appointment process for Senators was hatching, Dion contributed an essay on the topic to a little-known policy magazine called Inroads Journal.
> 
> Titled “Acknowledge the Elephant in the Red Chamber,” Dion’s piece was written as a response to another essay by former Reform Party strategist Tom Flanagan. Dion’s riff is concerned primarily with the conundrum of the disproportionate distribution of Senate seats between the provinces. It’s pretty dry stuff.
> 
> But Dion also addresses the notion that new Senators could be selected by an arms-length non-partisan committee — which sounds very much like the plan his leader unveiled to great surprise on Wednesday morning. Quoth Dion:
> 
> "As for the often made proposition, revived by Professor Flanagan, to submit senatorial selections to the scrutiny of supposedly independent and apolitical commissions (composed of Members of the Order of Canada, for example), I remain sceptical about it. I find the notion elitist – and frankly, not very democratic – and believe that Canadians would perceive it as such. It risks watering down the Prime Minister’s accountability. He selects senators – he should bear the responsibility for his choices."
> 
> Dion’s essay can be found on his Liberal party home page.
> 
> UPDATE: As the New Democrats point out, Dion elaborated on this view in response to an NDP motion last fall to make senators non-partisans. Dion via Hansard:
> 
> "We cannot say “You are a parliamentarian, but not the same as the ones in the House. You cannot be part of your caucus”. This would change the character of the Senate, its relationship with the House and it would be a constitutional problem."
> 
> "It is very amateurish on the part of our NDP colleagues to be constantly introducing motions in the House that make no sense and waste time. It really is a basic thing to know that one house cannot restrict the powers and prerogatives of another house."


----------



## FeXL

Thx, screature. Good info there & added bonus in the comments. 

My take is that there is little to no improvement (what I suspected in the first place) & things could, in fact, get worse under his system.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Nice one:


that's actually not a bad one macfury!

I think what seems to be very confusing for conservatives, is that they can't (or won't?) seem to fathom that Trudeau's action, isn't the big senate change they're scratching their heads looking for. Of course it's more symbolic than actual full on change. But it's a a little more bold than say Harper's pork barrelling and talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Of course, it remains to be seen that whomever wins the 2015 won't continue to or begin to talk out of both sides of their mouths, but I'd say Trudeau got one in this time round.

Round 2!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> I think what seems to be very confusing for conservatives, is that they can't (or won't?) seem to fathom that Trudeau's action, isn't the big senate change they're scratching their heads looking for.


What's confusing is something that is being trumpeted as significant is nothing more than empty political hyperbole.

Where's the beef?


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> It must be very hard for Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government and its supporters to understand that the Vets have a strong relationship with the civil servants that work(ed), as of today, at the DVA.
> 
> A relationship built on care and respect between the Vets and workers at DVA.
> 
> My wife briefly dealt with a DVA worker before my Dad died back in 2007-2008. My wife was very impressed with the level of professionalism and care of my Dad's case worker.
> 
> Harper Conservatives rely on talking points and old chestnuts like _The UNION_ to make their points. That might work on some supporters (as seen frequently on this board.)
> 
> The PSAC supported the Vets with their struggle, financially and with moral support.
> 
> PSAC could not put the heart felt expressions into the mouths of our Vets for the DVA workers. The workers at DVA earned the loyalty of the Vets over the years and for good reason.
> 
> Stephen Harper the master planner has been outwitted lately on many fronts, mostly by his own doing.
> 
> Young Trudeau did a nice move with his casting the Senators out of the Liberal Caucus.
> 
> Mr. Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government is really looking old and tired, having old policies and tired ideas.
> 
> The next election is only 1 year and 10 months away TICK, TICK, TICK!


All too true, BigDL. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

*Informative Speech*

Peter Stoffer MP for Sackville Eastern Shore (Nova Scotia) and the NDP's Official Opposition Critic for Veterans' Affairs speech during the debate on the opposition motion on the closure of Veterans Affairs offices and the mental health needs for our Canadian Forces. :clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6tGjDw8-g


----------



## Macfury

His speech was reasonable, although I need to see some proof that DVA is providing veterans with some sort of special care unavailable in the proposed system.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> Despite the attempted diversions, I was earlier referring to the fear monger tactics the current crop of crooks have been using to promote Bill C13 formerly known as C30 (anti kiddie Porn) formerly known.... originally put forth by the Liberals as an anti-terrorist bill.
> 
> This bill is an attempt to legalize domestic spying on Canadians. Thanks to the BC Civil Liberties folks we can now make a good guess as to why the Harper bunch are so anxious to pass this bill. Seems CSEC is already doing what they are attempting to legalize.
> 
> If they do squeeze this abomination past Parliament this time, and without very vocal opposition from the core con-verts it will pass, we can only hope that Canada's Supreme Court will toss it over a cliff on constitutional grounds.
> 
> 
> SPYING IN CANADA: Civil Liberties Watchdog Sues Surveillance Agency Over Illegal Spying on Canadians - Yahoo Finance


 It is a sad day indeed for Canadians.

When NDP David Christopherson MP Hamiton Centre (Ontario) rose in the House during Question Period today and asked the Minister of Justice, Rob Nicholson to start an inquiry into the reported actions of CSEC, spying upon Canadians illegally, Mr. Nicholson would only repeat the talking points of trusting CSEC and we have a Commissioner overseeing CSEC so we have nothing to worry about.

This Government wants to make legal to spy upon its citizens with the passage of C 13 and security forces to keep us in line.

Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government destroys information, muzzle scientist and now spys on its citizens.

Communist and Fascist totalitarian Governments take these kinds of actions. 

I will leave it to the members here to decide the kind of Government Stephen Harper is leaning towards.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Communist and Fascist totalitarian Governments take these kinds of actions.
> 
> I will leave it to the members here to decide the kind of Government Stephen Harper is leaning towards.


They're also the first to kill private enterprise by nationalizing healthcare.


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> It is a sad day indeed for Canadians.
> 
> When NDP David Christopherson MP Hamiton Centre (Ontario) rose in the House during Question Period today and asked the Minister of Justice, Rob Nicholson to start an inquiry into the reported actions of CSEC, spying upon Canadians illegally, Mr. Nicholson would only repeat the talking points of trusting CSEC and we have a Commissioner overseeing CSEC so we have nothing to worry about.
> 
> This Government wants to make legal to spy upon its citizens with the passage of C 13 and security forces to keep us in line.
> 
> Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government destroys information, muzzle scientist and now spys on its citizens.
> 
> Communist and Fascist totalitarian Governments take these kinds of actions.
> 
> I will leave it to the members here to decide the kind of Government Stephen Harper is leaning towards.


I can't think of too many occasions where you and I agree completely on anything. This is an exception. 

The power the US and Canada exercise in spying on their own is orders of magnitude greater than anything done by Hitler or Stalin, or any of the Soviet era governments. Honest governments simply do not need that sort of information on 99.99% of the population. For the very rare exceptions we have judges that are often only too happy to grant exceptions.

Nor do I believe for an instant that CSEC is limiting its internet surveillance to so-called meta data. Bet the farm that what they refer to meta data includes the texts of those eMails and probably any attachments as well.

Why would they need to go to these extremes? Let's assume that the core cons do not stand up and scream. In that case Harper will have no obstacle to passing Bill C13. Now this bill seems like a clear violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Harper can expect a number of Supreme Court challenges. Obviously CSEC has a vested interest in protecting its turf. All they need to do is to gather in all that info on the court Judges, I would be very surprised if they did not find enough arms they could twist to get a favourable verdict.

As to trusting the government, that is a Canadian idea, but Harper clearly prefers fear based American style politics.

Will the Harper worshippers stand up and shout NO!: "Bill C13 goes against everything we as Canadians grew up believing in"? More importantly will they make it clear that the cons will receive no further donations from them should this bill pass?

So far they seem to have prefer to divert discussion away from the topic.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> They're also the first to kill private enterprise by nationalizing healthcare.


yes the fact that there's no private enterprise at all in Canada is an absolute disgrace.:lmao:


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I can't think of too many occasions where you and I agree completely on anything. This is an exception.
> 
> The power the US and Canada exercise in spying on their own is orders of magnitude greater than anything done by Hitler or Stalin, or any of the Soviet era governments. Honest governments simply do not need that sort of information on 99.99% of the population. For the very rare exceptions we have judges that are often only too happy to grant exceptions.
> 
> Nor do I believe for an instant that CSEC is limiting its internet surveillance to so-called meta data. Bet the farm that what they refer to meta data includes the texts of those eMails and probably any attachments as well.
> 
> Why would they need to go to these extremes? Let's assume that the core cons do not stand up and scream. In that case Harper will have no obstacle to passing Bill C13. Now this bill seems like a clear violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Harper can expect a number of Supreme Court challenges. Obviously CSEC has a vested interest in protecting its turf. All they need to do is to gather in all that info on the court Judges, I would be very surprised if they did not find enough arms they could twist to get a favourable verdict.
> 
> As to trusting the government, that is a Canadian idea, but Harper clearly prefers fear based American style politics.
> 
> Will the Harper worshippers stand up and shout NO!: "Bill C13 goes against everything *we as Canadians grew up believing in*"? More importantly will they make it clear that the cons will receive no further donations from them should this bill pass?
> 
> So far they seem to have prefer to divert discussion away from the topic.


I will post this again as it seemed to fall between the cracks the first time around:



> eMacMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh the last three times around even you and MF agreed that Bill C30 now C13 was an incredibly bad idea. The thing is when the cons show their dumb side (that would be of course be condumbs) the con faithful need to step up and tell them just how dumb their latest old idea is.
> 
> In this case even Harpo himself recognized it as a very bad bill when the Liberals tried to stick it to us. Is the man showing any other signs of dementia?????
> 
> 
> 
> Relevance in posting my dear friend....
> 
> You refer to C-30 when it is completely irrelevant to the post at hand as you do with FACTA.
> 
> If you think they are such significant stand alone issues, as it appears you do, then why not start stand alone threads based on those issues.
> 
> As it is now when we are on a completely different topic it seems that you often feel compelled to weave in C-30 or FACTA related issues that actually in fact having nothing to do with the issue being discussed, except in perhaps some peripheral, extrapolated/FUD sort of way.
> 
> *Why are you afraid of C-13? Why are you afraid of FACTA?
> 
> Personally.
> 
> Not generalizations or dogma or theory. How do these legislations affect you personally and thus why do you harp on them continually?
> 
> I would really like to know. As you have never mentioned specifics when it comes to your frequent protestations.*
Click to expand...

Also if that is true for you personally why are so concerned with FACTA? It seems at the very least you grew up with dual citizenship.

If that is the case, I dare say it probably served you well over the years but now that you maybe facing having some additional forms to fill out you get all hot and bothered about it.

Things that make you go... Hmmm?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> yes the fact that there's no private enterprise at all in Canada is an absolute disgrace.:lmao:


The depth of your wit certainly never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The depth of your wit certainly never ceases to amaze me.


Did you actually think that to be an attempt at wit? It simply matches what it's directed at macfury. 

Sort of, 'ask a dumb question'... kinda thing.


----------



## Macfury

Sure, that kinda thing... absolutely. Well done.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The depth of your wit certainly never ceases to amaze me.





groovetube said:


> Did you actually think that to be an attempt at wit? It simply matches what it's directed at macfury.
> 
> Sort of, 'ask a dumb question'... kinda thing.


.



> A Scotsman and an Englishman lived next door to each other and generally did not get on.
> 
> The Scotsman owned the best chicken in the country and it laid great tasting eggs.
> 
> One day the chicken broke into the Englishman’s garden and laid an egg. The two men began arguing about who the egg belonged to. The Englishman claimed it for himself, saying “The egg was laid in my garden, therefore it belongs to me.” The Scotsman countered with “It’s my chicken, therefore I own the egg.”
> 
> The two men argue for some time and eventually decide there is only one way to solve the disagreement. The Scotsman suggests and old Scottish tradition of exchanging kicks in the balls until one falls down, the other being the victor.
> 
> The Scotsman volunteers to have first kick, so taking a run up he plants his boot right into the testicles of the Englishman who crumples up in absolute agony.
> 
> Despite all his pain he does not fall to the ground. Feeling rather proud of himself he faces up to the Scotman and says with a hint of satisfaction, “My turn now!”
> 
> To which the Scotsman replies:
> 
> “Nah! It’s just an egg….. You keep it.”


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More cons like the Liberal stance on Senate -

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...01/robert-fulford-justin-trudeaus-bold-stroke


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Support the troops


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More cons like the Liberal stance on Senate -
> 
> Robert Fulford: Justin Trudeau's bold stroke


leaving many conservatives wondering, 'Wha happened? What does this mean???" :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More cons like the Liberal stance on Senate -


From your linked article:



> "Freed from the restraints of partisanship,..."


Anybody who believes this BS would also believe in CAGW. Oh, wait... Aren't most warmists lefties?

And this:



> Trudeau promises that if he becomes prime minister he’ll create a transparent, non-partisan appointment system for senators. That process would be hard to invent, but it’s a better beginning to reform than the Conservatives have offered during their eight years in office.


Yeah, more like impossible to invent.

And, while the Conservatives have not been as aggressive as they should have been with Senate reform, a significant portion of that 8 years they had a minority & were stalled by the very Liberals who are now preaching reform.

How about fewer cons like his move?

Justin Trudeau abandons Alberta as he kicks out the only Alberta voices from the Liberal caucus.



> So with no elected Liberal MPs and now with no Liberal Senators, when the Liberal caucus gathers together to discuss issues or formulate policy etc, Albertans will no longer have anyone in the room to represent or speak for them. How can this be considered a good thing to do for either the people of Alberta or the Liberal Party?


Yeah, I know. Screw Alberta...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> leaving many conservatives wondering, 'Wha happened? What does this mean???" :lmao:


Why don't you illuminate us, groovetube. Tell the conservatives what it means.


----------



## groovetube

already did, several posts back. Very clearly. Also alluded to in the link Skippy posted.

I can't help if you miss it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> already did, several posts back. Very clearly. Also alluded to in the link Skippy posted.
> 
> I can't help if you miss it.


That leaves two parties who apparently don't know what it means--the conservatives and groovetube. Strange bedfellows indeed.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Support the troops
> View attachment 41482


.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The vets are telling their stories based on scripting provided by PSAC (that is a known fact) on the way it has been before, not how the new system will work.
> 
> The vets do not know if they will be better or worse serviced by the new structure. It is just the FUD being spread by PSAC to save their jobs and they are using these poor vets as puppets to push their agenda to try and save their jobs.


Interesting:



> Cooke denied that suggestion.
> 
> “I really take offence at him saying that PSAC is pushing us into this thing and leading the charge,” Cooke said. “*I will grant him that PSAC paid our way to Ottawa. But let’s put it this way, if they hadn’t of paid our way to Ottawa, we wouldn’t have been there.”*
> 
> Read more: Veterans, supporters protest closure of district offices | CTV News


----------



## Macfury

Having scanned a large number of sources on the subject, I have seen nothing to indicate that the offices did any more than answer questions about benefit programs. There are a lot of suggestions that the Veterans Affairs Offices provided actual service delivery.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *More cons like the Liberal stance on Senate *-
> 
> Robert Fulford: Justin Trudeau's bold stroke


Hunh??? 



> In his 1988 entry for The Canadian Encyclopedia, Douglas Fetherling described Fulford's politics as being on "the more conservative end of the liberal spectrum".


He is still a Liberal.

And one who can't get his facts straight:


> In no other democracy can the head of government grant someone a *lifetime income*


He's living in the past, senators must retire now at the age of 75, it is not a lifetime position. Also I didn't know that an infant could be appointed as a senator, thereby also disproving his "lifetime income" statement.

This is the best you've got skippy to indicate that conservatives support JT's ill thought out/"bold" move?

You need to try a little harder.


----------



## groovetube

So does the senator stop receiving income or any money once they retire at 75??

Sounds like we're splitting some hairs here...


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Interesting:


Why do you find this interesting?


----------



## Macfury

Because PSAC funded the veterans' trips to protest the PSAC staff cuts.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Interesting:


Yup no one wants to admit that they are being used by someone else.

Also this is just a hand full of vets with one guy doing all the talking. Who is to say that he doesn't have a personal axe to grind and now that he has been given a free ticket to Ottawa with scripting support from PSAC, he is all riled up for a fight?

The fact remains PSAC is using these guys to spread FUD, as no one at this point knows whether or not the vets will be better or less well served with the governments changes. 

That is a simple fact.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> So does the senator stop receiving income or any money once they retire at 75??
> 
> Sounds like we're splitting some hairs here...


Not at all as he says income and then separately pension. It isn't splitting hairs as in the past senators never had to retire at any age they were Senators for life. Period.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> The fact remains PSAC is using these guys to spread FUD, as no one at this point knows whether or not the vets will be better or less well served with the governments changes.
> 
> That is a simple fact.


that isn't a "fact". it's your "opinion". one you are certainly free to hold and express, but lets not conflate the 2. 

the entire point of protest and debate is to raise awareness and prevent or reverse course on issues. to dismiss everything as "FUD" is ludicrous. Many of the points brought up by these Vets are legitimate. It'd be nice to think that the Vets themselves should have some say in the care they will be receiving.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Because PSAC funded the veterans' trips to protest the PSAC staff cuts.


That's it? Do you want to speak for the vets as to what that means?

Seems enough people think they can speak for them, speaking of using vets for their political purposes. Announcing that the vets can't speak for themselves and are being used by the PSAC without anything to really back this up at all is just as bad as what they're alleging IMO. Curious if that's also what you're alleging.


----------



## SINC

Looks like screature called it right from the get go. Another shining example of why unions ought to be abolished:

Sun News : Union 'duped' veterans in Fantino showdown


----------



## groovetube

Are you also speaking for the vets? 

I find this notion that the vets are incapable of speaking for themselves and need the union to do so without any substance, beyond people's obvious biases against unions.

These are men who faced what I hope to never face in my lifetime, and to think they can't speak for themselves and are allowing themselves to be railroaded by the PSAC absolutely disrespectful.

Seriously.


----------



## i-rui

yes, nice conservative spin:

"those poor feeble-minded vets"

so i guess a Veteran's integrity can be bought with some flowery words and a trip to Ottawa?

incredibly shameful to even suggest it.


----------



## SINC

Let's be clear. No one speaks for vets, but vets.

But manipulating elderly vets to further a union's greed is much more shameful.


----------



## groovetube

Who said they are being manipulated? Have the vets come out and say they were?

So far, the only manipulation I e seen so far are people who try to make the vets out to be as I-rui put it 'poor feeble minded' people who can't stand up for themselves to grind an axe against unions.

Do any of you have any information besides your own feelings that the vets are being manipulated????


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> yes, nice conservative spin:
> 
> "those poor feeble-minded vets"
> 
> so i guess a veteran's integrity can be bought with some flowery words and a trip to ottawa?
> 
> Incredibly shameful to even suggest it.


+1


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Who said they are being manipulated?


The ones desperate to deflect blame from themselves onto one of their manufactured villains.

It plays well to the unthinking within their base.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> The ones desperate to deflect blame from themselves onto one of their manufactured villains.
> 
> It plays well to the unthinking within their base.


Yes.

Unions = bad.

And the government always has your best interests at heart. 

Funny how that one becomes convenient.


----------



## Macfury

Everyone has their own interests at heart--government, vets and unions.


----------



## groovetube

Well that was profound macfury, but where are you getting your information that the vets aren't speaking and being manipulated by the union?


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> Are you also speaking for the vets?
> 
> I find this notion that the vets are incapable of speaking for themselves and need the union to do so without any substance, beyond people's obvious biases against unions.
> 
> These are men who faced what I hope to never face in my lifetime, and to think they can't speak for themselves and are allowing themselves to be railroaded by the PSAC absolutely disrespectful.
> 
> Seriously.





i-rui said:


> yes, nice conservative spin:
> 
> "those poor feeble-minded vets"
> 
> so i guess a Veteran's integrity can be bought with some flowery words and a trip to Ottawa?
> 
> incredibly shameful to even suggest it.





groovetube said:


> Who said they are being manipulated? Have the vets come out and say they were?
> 
> So far, the only manipulation I e seen so far are people who try to make the vets out to be as I-rui put it 'poor feeble minded' people who can't stand up for themselves to grind an axe against unions.
> 
> Do any of you have any information besides your own feelings that the vets are being manipulated????





mrjimmy said:


> The ones desperate to deflect blame from themselves onto one of their manufactured villains.
> 
> It plays well to the unthinking within their base.


I'm not sure if it qualifies for F.U.D. but the stupid Conservative Government and their supporters are engaging in pure unadulterated BS.

The Conservative Government has not listened to the Vets and have taken them for granted for far too long.

Yes the Vets were supported by a Union the PSAC who represent members that worked as Veteran's Affairs employees. Veteran's Affair employees that had a respectful and caring relationship with their clients.

The Vets were not just complaining about the closure of 8 offices. They're also complaining about the poor quality of benefits and services now open to them.

The Harper Government's deaf ear to valid grievances is on them. 

Now the Harper Government's talking points are lost on the intended audience the Vets. The Harper Government has decided to drag out an old chestnut to deflect the Government's failure on this file. Blaming the Union. 

Blaming the Union for being an effective communication organization? Blaming the Union for financing the travel and accommodations of Veterans travel to Ottawa to show up a Minister of the Crown?
Blaming the Union for Canadians' attention being drawn to the shoddy treatment of Vets by miserly Governments? 

The public has sided with our Veterans and hear their message. 

The supporters of the Harper Government have picked up the deflection message, because it is in their "wheel house." Blame the Union is all they have left. 

The Vets have vowed another Anybody But Conservative campaign, just like the one Danny Williams successfully enacted in NL (except for one cheat in Labrador.) 

This time the Vets' ABC campaign may go coast to coast to coast. Will the public remain supportive of the Vets on an ABC campaign cost to coast to coast in the 2015 election?

TICK, TICK, TICK!


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> I'm not sure if it qualifies for F.U.D. but the stupid Conservative Government and their supporters are engaging in pure unadulterated BS.


Once again your opening remarks are like those of an upset child. Name calling bluster that exposes your lack of ability to criticize objectively. Typical though, of union supporters.


----------



## groovetube

comparing bigDL to an upset child likely isn't a lot better. Just my opinion.

Regardless of what the government of any union says, the vets themselves should be listened to.

So far, their message seems to be pretty clear. But it's getting lost in the arguements of whether the government is right or if the union is at fault for using the vets as pawns.


----------



## SINC

I didn't "impart" him in any way, whatever the heck you think that means. I "compared" him to an upset child.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Blaming the Union for being an effective communication organization?


If they were effective, nobody would have tracked the message back to them.



BigDL said:


> Blaming the Union for financing the travel and accommodations of Veterans travel to Ottawa to show up a Minister of the Crown?


How about, "tracing the money trail back to the union?"


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> comparing bigDL to an upset child likely isn't a lot better. Just my opinion.
> 
> Regardless of what the government of any union says, the vets themselves should be listened to.
> 
> So far, their message seems to be pretty clear. But it's getting lost in the arguements of whether the government is right or if the union is at fault for using the vets as pawns.


The Harper Government deflecting the blame for a botched policy and communication exercise is a stupid thing to do.

Alienating yet another group of supporters is not wise either and then attempting to blame a third party for their misfortunes with the hopes of vindicating themselves is not very clever as well.

Now having the usual dupes repeating the talking points may satisfy the converted but any reasonable person "ain't going to buying it" sorry about that and that's the plain truth of the matter.

So once again the rebuttal of the situation criticizing the Harper Government is to attack someone personally not to attack or discredit their ideas.

The only attach is against me, me personally, not my characterization of the wisdom with regard to the Harper Government's attack on Veterans then scapegoating a third party. So my thesis remains intact.

Once again this all is :lmao::lmao: and sadly all too predictable.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The Harper Government deflecting the blame for a botched policy and communication exercise is a stupid thing to do.
> 
> Alienating yet another group of supporters is not wise either and then attempting to blame a third party for their misfortunes with the hopes of vindicating themselves is not very clever as well.
> 
> Now having the usual dupes repeating the talking points may satisfy the converted but any reasonable person "ain't going to buying it" sorry about that and that's the plain truth of the matter.
> 
> So once again the rebuttal of the situation criticizing the Harper Government is to attack someone personally not to attack or discredit their ideas.
> 
> The only attach is against me, me personally, not my characterization of the wisdom with regard to the Harper Government's attack on Veterans then scapegoating a third party. So my thesis remains intact.
> 
> Once again this all is :lmao::lmao: and sadly all too predictable.


I have never seen an election turning on veterans issues--particularly one in which veterans will probably wind up with better service than they had before. That veterans are unhappy with the treatment they receive after their service goes back to at least WWI.

If things are looking so bad for your party of choice that this issue has you convinced it's going to pillory Stephen Harper, than bless you my boy, and take all of the solace from it that you can.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> So once again the rebuttal of the situation criticizing the Harper Government is to attack someone personally not to attack or discredit their ideas.
> 
> The only attach is against me, me personally, not my characterization of the wisdom with regard to the Harper Government's attack on Veterans then scapegoating a third party. So my thesis remains intact.
> 
> Once again this all is :lmao::lmao: and sadly all too predictable.





BigDL said:


> I'm not sure if it qualifies for F.U.D. but *the stupid Conservative Government and their supporters* are engaging in pure unadulterated BS.


You just never get it do you? *YOU* opened with a personal attack by calling me, as a conservative supporter, stupid. You get back what you toss out.

So now, just who is the stupid one? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

jeez. To be fair, he called the conservative government stupid. Not the supporters. It wasn't "the stupid conservative government and their _stupid_ supporters...".

Can we just dial it back?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> that isn't a "fact". it's your "opinion". one you are certainly free to hold and express, but lets not conflate the 2.
> 
> the entire point of protest and debate is to raise awareness and prevent or reverse course on issues. to dismiss everything as "FUD" is ludicrous. Many of the points brought up by these Vets are legitimate. It'd be nice to think that the Vets themselves should have some say in the care they will be receiving.





> no one at this point knows whether or not the vets will be better or less well served with the governments changes.
> 
> That is a simple fact.


It is a simple fact as no one can predict the future, that is not a matter of opinion. Unless you believe in clairvoyance and crystal balls and tarot cards etc...

Thus unions are generating FUD. Fact.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> jeez. To be fair, he called the conservative government stupid. Not the supporters. It wasn't "the stupid conservative government and their _stupid_ supporters...".
> 
> Can we just dial it back?


Apparently you can't understand it either. Check his statement. It clearly and without any doubt states:



BigDL said:


> I'm not sure if it qualifies for F.U.D. but *the stupid Conservative Government and their supporters* are engaging in pure unadulterated BS.


The 'and' carries over the stupid to include supporters.


----------



## screature

WOW and from Warren Kinsella no less. Amazing.

10 reasons why Trudeau's Senate bombshell is the stupidest thing, ever
Liberal leader looked like a participant in a Model Parliament



> How dumb is Justin Trudeau’s Senate stunt? Let us count the ways.
> 
> There are 10.
> 
> 1) It won’t really fool anyone. To great fanfare, the Liberal leader announced Wednesday morning “there are no more Liberal Senators.”
> 
> A few hours later, 32 senators emerged from a meeting to declare that, (a) they are still senators and, (b) they are still Liberals. Recalling the musician Prince, the legislators formerly known as “Liberal senators” would heretofore be known as “Senate Liberals.” Seem like a big change to you? Us neither.
> 
> 2) It doesn’t really address the key problem — they’re still unelected. In fact, Trudeau’s Red Chamber caper arguably makes the problem worse. Under his plan, unelected senators will now be appointed by other unelected people, in the way Orders of Canada are handed out (you know, using the same sterling process that saw the Order bestowed upon Conrad Black, Alan Eagleson and David Ahenakew). Before, at least, there was a vestige of democratic accountability in Senate appointments. Trudeau’s move eliminates it.
> 
> 3) The Constitution contemplates a bicameral legislature, with the government being called to account by the opposition. At different times in our history, when there has been a huge majority in the House — in the Brian Mulroney era, in the Jean Chretien era — opposition party senators fostered debate, and thereby democracy. Trudeau’s tour de force ends all that in the Upper Chamber.
> 
> 4) What seems bold and visionary in opposition is rarely so when in government. When Trudeau is prime minister — as he may be one day — he’d better get ready for the sort of gridlock Barack Obama was decrying in last week’s State of the Union address. There will be no more Liberal senators to whip. They’ll be independents and they will be working hard to live up to their name. Guaranteed.
> 
> 5) The Senate scandal(s) ain’t dead. If the Liberal leader hopes that his excellent Senate adventure will insulate him from coming expense probes, he’s been smoking something stronger than cannabis.
> 
> Ask Stephen Harper. Expelling Mike Duffy and Co. did nothing to mollify the RCMP or the media.
> 
> If Trudeau did what he did for scandal inoculation, it’ll be remembered as one of the most cynical political moves in a generation.
> 
> 6) It was cruel and callous. In the “Senate Liberal” caucus, there are many hard-working and decent people.
> 
> Jimmy Munson. Percy Downe. Romeo Dallaire. Lillian Dyck. Marie Poulin. What Trudeau did was recklessly smear some remarkable Canadians with scandal. It was unfair and unwarranted, and it won’t soon be forgotten by many, many Liberals.
> 
> 7) It was done without any consultation with party members whatsoever.
> 
> The only people in on the decision, ironically enough, were a puny group of unelected advisers, who thereafter fanned out to offer “exclusives” to the media about their super-important role in remaking Canadian history.
> 
> For a guy who promised no more top-down decision-making, the Senate gimmick was about as top-down as it gets.
> 
> 8) It was a whiplash-inducing reversal. Late last year, the NDP offered up an identical proposal in the House. The Liberals, Trudeau included, sniffed that it was “unconstitutional” and voted it down.
> 
> What changed? We can only speculate myriad horrors await in the auditor-general’s Senate expenses probe. They must be very big.
> 
> 9) It cements the view that Trudeau does policy on the fly.
> 
> Like the summer lost to marijuana at the expense of any other policy. Like the ruminations about understanding the feelings of the Boston bombers, or admiring the Chinese dictatorship. All of it increasingly suggests Trudeau is making it up as he goes along. Not good.
> 
> 10) In politics, all that matters is loyalty and trust.
> 
> Last week, Justin Trudeau merrily shredded both, and he broke faith with people who literally kept the Liberal Party of Canada alive when he was still in nappies.
> 
> Last week, Justin Trudeau looked like a participant in a Model Parliament.
> 
> Not a prime minister.


----------



## SINC

> Last week, Justin Trudeau merrily shredded both, and he broke faith with people who literally kept the Liberal Party of Canada alive when he was still in nappies.
> 
> Last week, Justin Trudeau looked like a participant in a Model Parliament.
> 
> Not a prime minister.


Trudeau has clearly demonstrated that he is not fit to be PM of this country. Again.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Apparently you can't understand it either. Check his statement. It clearly and without any doubt states:
> 
> 
> 
> The 'and' carries over the stupid to include supporters.


ok, well I understood it a little differently. Anyway, this is boring.

Well this is surprising, given this is coming from Conrad Black.
Conrad Black: The road to Senate reform starts in Quebec | National Post

Though now that he has expressed this perhaps he is now a closet liberal scoundrel or something similar.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ok, well I understood it a little differently. Anyway, this is boring.
> 
> Well this is surprising, given this is coming from Conrad Black.
> Conrad Black: The road to Senate reform starts in Quebec | National Post
> 
> Though now that he has expressed this perhaps he is now a closet liberal scoundrel or something similar.


It's hard to say what he's getting at with that column. The conclusion doesn't seem to follow the rest of the piece. Maybe he's a little peeved at losing the Order of Canada.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's hard to say what he's getting at with that column. The conclusion doesn't seem to follow the rest of the piece. *Maybe he's a little peeved at losing the Order of Canada.*


ah there we go. You don't disappoint macfury. You can set your clock to it :lmao:

Well in any case, regardless of whether Trudeau's move confuses you, excites you, or bores you, he seems to have hit a nerve, and people are talking about it.


----------



## Macfury

Just looking at one office closure--Saskatoon. Says that one office with a staff of 14 represented 4,500 veterans. I assume that's the total number of veterans in Saskatoon. How many times a year do each of them come in for more information on their benefits programs? Assuming 1/3 of them require no additional information, 1/3 come in twice a year and 1/3 come in every two months (that seems a little unlikely), we get 21,000 visits a year = 48 visits a day, served by 14 staff members. Even doubling that, staff would see only one veteran per hour.

If the government has a Veterans Affairs office set up simply because veterans enjoy talking to case workers, than that represents an an entirely separate problem that could be solved in better ways than having them visit a government office to fill out forms.

Again, if these offices actually provided services I might understand the outrage. But apparently all they do is advise veterans of the benefits available to them.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ah there we go. You don't disappoint macfury. You can set your clock to it :lmao:
> 
> Well in any case, regardless of whether Trudeau's move confuses you, excites you, or bores you, he seems to have hit a nerve, and people are talking about it.


Who could be confused by Trudeau's ideas? The man is a simpleton.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> ok, well I understood it a little differently. Anyway, this is boring.
> 
> Well this is surprising, given this is coming from Conrad Black.
> Conrad Black: The road to Senate reform starts in Quebec | National Post
> 
> Though now that he has expressed this perhaps he is now a closet liberal scoundrel or something similar.


What amazes me is the can't do attitude in this country. The Constitution of Canada can't be changed. Then I think we shall all be doomed.

The ideas of 19th shall be our guide for how long? No wait we made changes in the 20th century…but that's it?

In a living democracy I think the will of the people should always prevail.

The Provincial Upper Chambers have gone the ways of the worry free. What is so special about the Senate of Canada that we shall be saddled with this burden of an undemocratic, anachronistic and crony infested useless abomination?

If you don't try and saying something is impossible, it is usually a self fulfilling prophesy.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> ok, well I understood it a little differently. Anyway, this is boring.
> 
> Well this is surprising, given this is coming from Conrad Black.
> Conrad Black: The road to Senate reform starts in Quebec | National Post
> 
> Though now that he has expressed this perhaps he is now a closet liberal scoundrel or something similar.





Macfury said:


> It's hard to say what he's getting at with that column. The conclusion doesn't seem to follow the rest of the piece. Maybe he's a little peeved at losing the Order of Canada.


What a wild ride of a read that was.

Jumping from point a to point q in a paragraph or two. Me thinks Conrad is losing it (has been for quite some time.) If he ever actually had "it" in the first place.

Interesting though that groove would chose to defend JT's move based on the words of a convicted criminal/known liar/persona non grata/as corrupt as they come who served time in jail based on his willingness to co-opt any political or economic system for his own personal gain to defend JT.

Strange times indeed.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What a wild ride of a read that was.
> 
> Jumping from point a to point q in a paragraph or two. Me thinks Conrad is losing it (has been for quite some time.) If he ever actually had "it" in the first place.
> 
> Interesting though that groove would chose to defend JT's move based on the words of a convicted criminal/known liar/persona non grata/as corrupt as they come who served time in jail based on his willingness to co-opt any political or economic system for his own personal gain to defend JT.
> 
> Strange times indeed.


I generally enjoy reading Black's opinions, even if I don't agree with them--that column was really sub-standard. Any notion I had of Black as a small "c" conservative ended when he penned that book on his hero, FDR.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> What amazes me is the can't do attitude in this country. The Constitution of Canada can't be changed. Then I think we shall all be doomed.


Of course it can be changed. However, the likelihood of anyone taking Justin's ideas on the senate seriously are minimal.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *I generally enjoy reading Black's opinions*, even if I don't agree with them--that column was really sub-standard. Any notion I had of Black as a small "c" conservative ended when he penned that book on his hero, FDR.


He can be entertaining at times in what he has to say, despite his stone like demeanor, he can be pretty funny at times. I think of his appearances on the Rick Mercer Report as examples. Here is one:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> What a wild ride of a read that was.
> 
> Jumping from point a to point q in a paragraph or two. Me thinks Conrad is losing it (has been for quite some time.) If he ever actually had "it" in the first place.
> 
> Interesting though that groove would chose to defend JT's move based on the words of a convicted criminal/known liar/persona non grata/as corrupt as they come who served time in jail based on his willingness to co-opt any political or economic system for his own personal gain to defend JT.
> 
> Strange times indeed.


Wait a second. DOn't characterize my post as defending JT's move based on Conrad Black's article. I merely said I thought it was interesting that someone like Conrad Black, would be so positive about what JT did.

I don't know what the best solution for the senate is right now. But it seems JT made a bold enough a move, however symbolic it may be at this point, to ruffle a lot of feathers (judging from some of the posts here and what I see in the media...), and got people talking about it. 

Every time I see the same old tired refrain, that Trudeau isn't ready to lead or something similar, I think, man, is that all they have? Really?? A tired one liner??


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Every time I see the same old tired refrain, that Trudeau isn't ready to lead or something similar, I think, man, is that all they have? Really?? A tired one liner??


When all you have is Trudeau, that's all you can get.


----------



## FeXL

And, as screwed up as Alberta provincial politics are now, Ontario's is worse...

Wynneing!



> Ontario taxpayers will be on the hook for more than half a million dollars to compensate the man fired last month as head of the 2015 Pan American Games in Toronto.
> 
> and...
> 
> Health Minister Deb Matthews has confirmed she personally signed off on a contract that is allowing the CEO of eHealth Ontario to leave early with a $400,000 package.
> 
> and!
> 
> The president of Hydro One resigned yesterday and walked away with a $3-million severance package only four days after Ontario's Auditor-General raised concerns about the use of corporate credit cards at the company.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> When all you have is Trudeau, that's all you can get.


Absolutely. I never said that either Dion or Ignatieff weren't ready to be PM. I hated their policies, but they weren't intellectual flyweights.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> ...it seems JT made a bold enough a move,


Empty change for the sake of change accomplishes what, exactly?

It will also be interesting to see if, in the next little while, this was actually a calculated move to distance himself from upcoming Liberal Senator scandals.



groovetube said:


> Really?? A tired one liner??


If the shoe fits...


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> When all you have is Trudeau, that's all you can get.


what does that mean exactly?

Is this a new campaign slogan? 

I think people have tried to turn people's comments about Trudeau into absolute support for Trudeau. Is this what debate has come down to? Really?

I don't know what this move will ultimately mean down the road. But truthfully, what the hell has Harper done??

Except appoint piles and piles of buddies to the plum of lots of tax payers dollars that is...


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> what does that mean exactly?


Close enough:



FeXL said:


> If the shoe fits...


----------



## Macfury

I think that would make a great slogan for the Conservatives: "When all you've got is Trudeau..."


----------



## groovetube

When all you have is Harper then that's all you have.

When all you have is non-sensical one liners, then that's all you have.

Sorry but another one liner doesn't give yours meaning. Simply finding what one politician did interesting seems to have ruffled some feathers. 

The way I see it so far on the senate thing, Trudeau 1, Harper 0.

What has Harper done other than fatten his buddies in the senate? Does this make him a better leader?

Not sure if that would be -my- definition of leadership!


----------



## SINC

It's too bad that some Liberals cannot see the damage Trudeau has not only done to the party, its loyal supporters, many of its senior members, but to its election hopes as well. I suspect unlike you, most Liberals will deal him a death blow at the polls come election time. Harper 2, Trudeau 0.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> most Liberals will deal him a death blow at the polls come election time. Harper 2, Trudeau 0.


Dream a little dream SINC, dream a little dream.


----------



## groovetube

Well since we're talking about the senate thing, before you can award Harper 2 points on the senate, can you explain what he did on the senate issue to deserve the 2 points?

As far as dealing Trudeau a blow at election time, well that remains to be seen. At this time I wouldn't make a pediction either way. However, what I do know, is that the Harper government is looking more and more tired, and they still have nearly 2 years to go. Some seem to think that their salvation will be balancing the budget, but that didn't save the previous liberals from being defeated.

The conservatives are going to have to do a whole lot more to repair their already declining brand. A lot more.

The issue with the vets, is just going to be one of many things that will make them look really incompetent. Hearing people repeat all these talking points on how great the changes will be, is hollow. Let's see just how great these changes are in practice.


----------



## SINC

mrjimmy said:


> Dream a little dream SINC, dream a little dream.


That's all you and most Liberals have. A dream. Trudeau. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> As far as dealing Trudeau a blow at election time, well that remains to be seen. At this time I wouldn't make a pediction either way.


I will. He cut off his own nads with his move with the senate.


----------



## groovetube

Anyone, or anything is better than Harper. It's time that scheming secretive dishonest disaster of a PM gets turfed.

If Trudeau is the one to do it, great I say.


----------



## groovetube

I still haven't heard yet what Harper has done with the senate to deserve the 2 points.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I still haven't heard yet what Harper has done with the senate to deserve the 2 points.


That's easy, he didn't do what Trudeau did.


----------



## groovetube

Ha ha that's what I thought


----------



## groovetube

Michael Den Tandt: Trudeau's Senate gambit, in Harper's hands, would have been nothing short of genius | National Post



> All of which is why, from a Reform party principle standpoint, from a Conservative standpoint, Trudeau’s move, in Harper’s hands, would have been nothing short of genius. It could have put him back at the top of the heap. Whereas as things stand — with Trudeau leading — the prime minister has been reduced, once again, to playing defence.


yep.


----------



## Macfury

Nope.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Michael Den Tandt: Trudeau's Senate gambit, in Harper's hands, would have been nothing short of genius | National Post
> 
> 
> 
> yep.


Jaysus, I guess you can't understand this either? The man is toast:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1218.html#post1617170


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> yep.


The observations on Shiny Pony's absurd Senate exercise are not partisan. This has nothing to do with him being a Liberal. It has everything to do with the exercise being a stupid & pointless move. No national party leader would have been above rebuke if they had executed this idiocy.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> Jaysus, I guess you can't understand this either? The man is toast:
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1218.html#post1617170


Ah the old, 'I've said it, therefore I've won the argument' tactic. I suppose we all employ it to a certain degree.

It's interesting the cocksureness of the flailing right with this new bit of perceived canon fodder. The fact still remains that Harper's flame is flickering and Trudeau, whether you like him or not, is burning brighter and brighter. I expect there will be much weeping on the prairie/ foothill/ mountain range come election time.

Until then, rejoice and be delusional!


----------



## Macfury

More like this:


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Ah the old, 'I've said it, therefore I've won the argument' tactic. I suppose we all employ it to a certain degree.
> 
> It's interesting the cocksureness of the flailing right with this new bit of perceived canon fodder. The fact still remains that Harper's flame is flickering and Trudeau, whether you like him or not, is burning brighter and brighter. I expect there will be much weeping on the prairie/ foothill/ mountain range come election time.
> 
> Until then, rejoice and be delusional!


From what I'm hearing, the conservatives are far too afraid of doing this. 'Stupid' they say.

The conservative response to this is predictable. And best of all, totally hypocritical.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> From what I'm hearing, the conservatives are far too afraid of doing this. 'Stupid' they say.
> 
> The conservative response to this is predictable. And best of all, totally hypocritical.


I would be afraid of doing it too. Who wants to look like a nadless fool?


----------



## groovetube

See that's how you need to characterize it. The truth is, you have no idea do you?
.
It's pretty telling when the conservatives call bucking the status quo being a nadless fool.

I'm rather enjoying the response! Let's watch to see if your little drawing comes true.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> See that's how you need to characterize it. The truth is, you have no idea so you?
> .
> It's pretty telling when the conservatives call bucking the status quo being a nadless fool.


If all you're doing is bucking, then yes, you're a nadless fool. Demeaning your own senators until they form their own Liberal caucus is not a masterstroke.


----------



## groovetube

As I said, the responses are entertainment.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> As I said, the responses are entertainment.


You set a very low bar for entertainment.


----------



## groovetube

Sorry macfury I couldn't find a sarcasm smilie.


----------



## FeXL

*Well, that didn't take long...*

Liberal senators may be kicked out, but they're not staying out



> So what was their meeting about, less than 24 hours after Trudeau relieved them of their caucus duties?
> 
> They no longer had to attend Trudeau's weekly caucus meetings, usually in Ottawa but often held around the country. They were no longer on Trudeau's policy team, needing to hire researchers for that.
> 
> They were no longer Trudeau's political point-men for different provinces, with the concomitant travel and staff. (With his senators gone, Trudeau's Liberal caucus now has a grand total of four MPs covering the 10 million souls in B.C., Alberta. Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the three northern territories.) *So, what did the Liberals ask for at this special Senate committee meeting at 9 a.m.?
> 
> They asked for more money, of course.
> 
> And they got it.* Because the senators on the committee just voted to give it to them - over the objection of four Conservatives.


Good job, Shiny Pony! You just confirmed to Canadians the country over just what a stupid, pointless, grandstanding, empty political move your Senate decision actually was.

Further:



> Because, if there was ever any doubt, the most dangerous place in the world is between a Liberal and a pile of taxpayer money.


Yep...


----------



## Macfury

Fascinating read here:

Trudeau dismisses worries he's lost party organizers with release of senators from Liberal caucus | Toronto Star

It becomes dreadfully obvious that Trudeau went off half-cocked here. Party organizers are quitting? Tish tush--they were disposable against the weight of this grand scheme. Wait for a party convention? If he did that, there might have been "infighting" on display. (We usually refer to this as opposition.) 

He sprung this on the party as his own masterstroke, and now he's trying to deal with the blowback he so richly deserves.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> It is a simple fact as no one can predict the future, that is not a matter of opinion. Unless you believe in clairvoyance and crystal balls and tarot cards etc...


yes of course. i would never disagree with that



screature said:


> Thus unions are generating FUD. Fact.


no, this is NOT a fact, this is YOUR oppinion.

By your standard EVERY disagreement on ANY policy becomes FUD. We have already agreed that no one can predict the future, but that doesn't preclude people from debating policy. That's an absolute insane stance to have, doubly so in a democracy.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> Well since we're talking about the senate thing, before you can award Harper 2 points on the senate, can you explain what he did on the senate issue to deserve the 2 points?


he appointed 59 senators, and then tried to cover up their expense scandals.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Wait a second. DOn't characterize my post as defending JT's move based on Conrad Black's article. I merely said I thought it was interesting that someone like Conrad Black, would be so positive about what JT did.
> 
> I don't know what the best solution for the senate is right now. But it seems JT made a bold enough a move, however symbolic it may be at this point, to ruffle a lot of feathers (judging from some of the posts here and what I see in the media...), and got people talking about it.
> 
> Every time I see the same old tired refrain, that Trudeau isn't ready to lead or something similar, I think, man, is that all they have? Really?? A tired one liner??


Warren Kinsella thinks he isn't PM material if you read the article that I linked to and posted and he is as staunch a Liberal as they come. So the criticism isn't only coming from conservatives. It isn't a tired one liner so long as he keeps demonstrating it.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> he appointed 59 senators, and then tried to cover up their expense scandals.


Right. This explains the furious spinning of how disastrous this apparently will be. :lmao:


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> yes of course. i would never disagree with that
> 
> 
> 
> no, this is NOT a fact, this is YOUR oppinion.
> 
> By your standard EVERY disagreement on ANY policy becomes FUD. We have already agreed that no one can predict the future, but that doesn't preclude people from debating policy. That's an absolute insane stance to have, doubly so in a democracy.



It isn't about debating policy it about spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt when they have no way of knowing what the outcome will be that makes it a fact they are spreading FUD.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> See that's how you need to characterize it. The truth is, you have no idea do you?
> .
> It's pretty telling when the conservatives call bucking the status quo being a nadless fool.
> 
> I'm rather enjoying the response! Let's watch to see if your little drawing comes true.


Seeing as you missed it the first time around here it is a again:

WOW and from Warren Kinsella no less. Amazing.

10 reasons why Trudeau's Senate bombshell is the stupidest thing, ever
Liberal leader looked like a participant in a Model Parliament




> How dumb is Justin Trudeau’s Senate stunt? Let us count the ways.
> 
> There are 10.
> 
> 1) It won’t really fool anyone. To great fanfare, the Liberal leader announced Wednesday morning “there are no more Liberal Senators.”
> 
> A few hours later, 32 senators emerged from a meeting to declare that, (a) they are still senators and, (b) they are still Liberals. Recalling the musician Prince, the legislators formerly known as “Liberal senators” would heretofore be known as “Senate Liberals.” Seem like a big change to you? Us neither.
> 
> 2) It doesn’t really address the key problem — they’re still unelected. In fact, Trudeau’s Red Chamber caper arguably makes the problem worse. Under his plan, unelected senators will now be appointed by other unelected people, in the way Orders of Canada are handed out (you know, using the same sterling process that saw the Order bestowed upon Conrad Black, Alan Eagleson and David Ahenakew). Before, at least, there was a vestige of democratic accountability in Senate appointments. Trudeau’s move eliminates it.
> 
> 3) The Constitution contemplates a bicameral legislature, with the government being called to account by the opposition. At different times in our history, when there has been a huge majority in the House — in the Brian Mulroney era, in the Jean Chretien era — opposition party senators fostered debate, and thereby democracy. Trudeau’s tour de force ends all that in the Upper Chamber.
> 
> 4) What seems bold and visionary in opposition is rarely so when in government. When Trudeau is prime minister — as he may be one day — he’d better get ready for the sort of gridlock Barack Obama was decrying in last week’s State of the Union address. There will be no more Liberal senators to whip. They’ll be independents and they will be working hard to live up to their name. Guaranteed.
> 
> 5) The Senate scandal(s) ain’t dead. If the Liberal leader hopes that his excellent Senate adventure will insulate him from coming expense probes, he’s been smoking something stronger than cannabis.
> 
> Ask Stephen Harper. Expelling Mike Duffy and Co. did nothing to mollify the RCMP or the media.
> 
> If Trudeau did what he did for scandal inoculation, it’ll be remembered as one of the most cynical political moves in a generation.
> 
> 6) It was cruel and callous. In the “Senate Liberal” caucus, there are many hard-working and decent people.
> 
> Jimmy Munson. Percy Downe. Romeo Dallaire. Lillian Dyck. Marie Poulin. What Trudeau did was recklessly smear some remarkable Canadians with scandal. It was unfair and unwarranted, and it won’t soon be forgotten by many, many Liberals.
> 
> 7) It was done without any consultation with party members whatsoever.
> 
> The only people in on the decision, ironically enough, were a puny group of unelected advisers, who thereafter fanned out to offer “exclusives” to the media about their super-important role in remaking Canadian history.
> 
> For a guy who promised no more top-down decision-making, the Senate gimmick was about as top-down as it gets.
> 
> 8) It was a whiplash-inducing reversal. Late last year, the NDP offered up an identical proposal in the House. The Liberals, Trudeau included, sniffed that it was “unconstitutional” and voted it down.
> 
> What changed? We can only speculate myriad horrors await in the auditor-general’s Senate expenses probe. They must be very big.
> 
> 9) It cements the view that Trudeau does policy on the fly.
> 
> Like the summer lost to marijuana at the expense of any other policy. Like the ruminations about understanding the feelings of the Boston bombers, or admiring the Chinese dictatorship. All of it increasingly suggests Trudeau is making it up as he goes along. Not good.
> 
> 10) In politics, all that matters is loyalty and trust.
> 
> Last week, Justin Trudeau merrily shredded both, and he broke faith with people who literally kept the Liberal Party of Canada alive when he was still in nappies.
> 
> Last week, Justin Trudeau looked like a participant in a Model Parliament.
> 
> Not a prime minister.


----------



## i-rui

Maybe the Veterans Affairs Minister should actually listen to vets - The Globe and Mail



> Mr. Fantino’s office even issued a self-congratulatory press release right after the “meeting” – “Minister Fantino holds roundtable with Canadian veterans” – making them the Department of Brass Balls, anyway.


if this is true then that says it all about this government.



> Perhaps what we’re seeing here is just what happens when two talking points collide. Lately “We support the military” and “We’re the only fiscally responsible party” are coming up against each other. But characterizing soldiers whom we have trusted to defend us as mere hapless pawns of unions – as people who can’t be trusted to know or articulate their own needs – isn’t really working, and that is what the government has tried to do.


+1000


----------



## Macfury

Even if the vets are articulating what they demand, doesn't mean they should automatically receive it. They are vets, no gods.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Seeing as you missed it the first time around here it is a again:
> 
> WOW and from Warren Kinsella no less. Amazing.
> 
> 10 reasons why Trudeau's Senate bombshell is the stupidest thing, ever
> Liberal leader looked like a participant in a Model Parliament


WOW indeed, suddenly Warren Kinsella isn't a liberal hack after all! :lmao:

As I have said before, I don't know what the end result of this move will eventually be, but I find it interesting how convinced and upset conservatives are by this. It almost seems more interesting than the move itself!


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> It isn't about debating policy it about spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt when they have no way of knowing what the outcome will be that makes it a fact they are spreading FUD.


they have legitimate points. for instance :



> Veteran Ronald Clarke, one of the most vocal protesters, said he tried to ask Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino earlier in the week how it would be possible to post an adequately trained worker at every Service Canada location.
> “What 600 people is he going to put into those offices? Where were they going to get their training? Who is going to train them, what courses are they going to get?” Clarke told CTV’s Power Play. “And of course Mr. Fantino, as I said who has been flying by his coattails trying to figure out what to do about this stuff, had no answer for that.”
> 
> 
> Read more: Veterans, supporters protest closure of district offices | CTV News


that isn't FUD. to think that 600 qualified workers can just magically appear is silly. asking where they come from, who they are and what training they'll have is completely reasonable.

BTW that Warren Kinsella list that you've posted twice contains several points that would be considered FUD by your very own definition of it by not being able to comment on future events.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Even if the vets are articulating what they demand, doesn't mean they should automatically receive it. They are vets, no gods.


well at least we know where you stand on the issue of helping the vets.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> WOW indeed, suddenly Warren Kinsella isn't a liberal hack after all! :lmao:
> 
> As I have said before, I don't know what the end result of this move will eventually be, but I find it interesting how convinced and upset conservatives are by this. It almost seems more interesting than the move itself!


Upset? Dreamer. Why would any conservative be upset with Trudeau committing political suicide? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Upset? Dreamer. Why would any conservative be upset with Trudeau committing political suicide? :lmao:


It's the spin SINC. Such loud calls insisting this is political suicide. Such determination this is such a bad move.

Obviously, it hit a nerve. Because really none of you have any idea (nor do I) what this will result in. But wow are people so insistent and so damn sure!!:clap:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> well at least we know where you stand on the issue of helping the vets.


You certainly know where I stand on giving them everything on their wish list.


----------



## SINC

Watch him implode before the election. 

I can see the headlines already:

Liberals left leaderless as campaign begins


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Upset? Dreamer. Why would any conservative be upset with Trudeau committing political suicide? :lmao:


I'm personally enjoying it--particularly seeing him making crazy unilateral decisions after a barrage of complaints that Harper is a dictator.


----------



## groovetube

Sounds like you are really hoping SINC.

However so far, the only one actually slowly imploding is Harper.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> WOW indeed, suddenly Warren Kinsella isn't a liberal hack after all! :lmao:
> 
> As I have said before, I don't know what the end result of this move will eventually be, but I find it interesting how convinced and upset conservatives are by this. It almost seems more interesting than the move itself!


He is a Liberal hack but one who can at least see though and past the stunt that Trudeau pulled for what it was and the potential fall out that it is going to have for the Liberal party.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> WOW indeed, suddenly Warren Kinsella isn't a liberal hack after all! :lmao:


He remains a liberal hack. The point is, when even the liberal hacks are calling the move stupid, it's no longer just the conservatives who see the transparency...


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> they have legitimate points. for instance :
> 
> Those are questions that were asked by a veteran, not FUD being spread by PSAC.
> 
> 
> that isn't FUD. *to think that 600 qualified workers can just magically appear is silly. *asking where they come from, who they are and what training they'll have is completely reasonable.
> 
> *BTW that Warren Kinsella list that you've posted twice contains several points that would be considered FUD by your very own definition of it by not being able to comment on future events*.


It isn't silly they are are being transferred from existing Service Canada positions, training happens all the time in the Public Service... like this is something new or out of the norm?

Which ones exactly. Of course it is possible to talk about future events but it doesn't make it FUD. What makes it FUD is spreading, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. I thought much was obvious.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Obviously, it hit a nerve.


Shiny Pony's actions haven't hit a nerve. It's the left's response, crowing that this is somehow "ground breaking" and other such nonsense that's hit the nerve.

I'll repeat one last time for you: At best, it's an empty move that accomplishes nothing. At worst, it's him ducking the results of the upcoming Auditor's report and/or disenfranchising himself from much needed nation-wide Liberal support.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> He is a Liberal hack but one who can at least see though and past the stunt that Trudeau pulled for what it was and the potential fall out that it is going to have for the Liberal party.


Right. Potential fallout. As if the senate is really going to be any great force in organizing and fund raising after Canadians in general are mad as hell and see the lot if them as do nothing frauds. Somehow distancing himself from the senate and letting Harper wear it including his appointing 59 senators doesn't seem altogether a horrible move.

It'll upset some sure, whenever anyone gives the trough a jiggle it's bound to create waves of howls and screams.

It's interesting that people are just sooo insistent of this being political suicide!

I guess some people have crystal balls.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> It isn't about debating policy it about spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt when they have no way of knowing what the outcome will be that makes it a fact they are spreading FUD.


facts are not subjective. opinions are.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> It'll upset some sure, whenever anyone gives the trough a jiggle it's bound to create waves of howls and screams.


How did this achieve a "jiggle?" The criticism is that it did nothing but hurt his own standing within the party.


----------



## Macfury

One thing that makes me laugh--the Liberal journos who suggest that if Harper had been responsible for this "masterstroke," he would have been applauded. Truth is, he would have received the rightful condemnation that comes with a blatant attempt to distance himself from the senate scandal--such as it is.


----------



## groovetube

oh the 'liberal journos'. ha ha ha.

Spin spin spin. What was that saying? Right. When all you have is spin, well, that all you have!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> oh the 'liberal journos'. ha ha ha.
> 
> Spin spin spin. What was that saying? Right. When all you have is spin, well, that all you have!


Are you going to blame this post on "Tapatalk"?


----------



## groovetube

No more than the person who came up with that silly line.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> oh the 'liberal journos'. ha ha ha.
> 
> Spin spin spin. What was that saying? Right. When all you have is spin, well, that all you have!


It's so much better though than having only a now damaged goods leader like Trudeau.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> It's so much better though than having only a now damaged goods leader like Trudeau.


what?

I know you hate Trudeau SINC. But declaring all this stuff here doesn't make a lick of difference.

A whole lot of people see Harper as damaged goods especially after that senate coverup stuff.


----------



## SINC

I don't 'hate' Trudeau. How could I? I don't know him. I do however think he is a pot smoking rookie who does not have the intellect to lead the country, never mind a party and his recent actions prove that to me beyond any doubt.


----------



## groovetube

Well I don't think anyone here is under any illusions that they'll change your mind on this.

The juries out on his being a good choice for me still, but I'll take a pot smoking rookie over Harper. Hell a large part of Toronto still supports an incompetent mayor who "smokes lots of pot" and does crack as well as blow all the time, so it's amazing what people will support these days.


----------



## Sonal

I lost all respect for Warren Kinsella's opinion the day I read a post-election article by him that contained the phrase "Ignatieff ran a brilliant campaign." Um, no. 

I still haven't made up my mind whether Trudeau's decision on the Senate was just so crazy it's brilliant, or just so crazy. Time will tell. 

However:
a) I don't see a downside to ending (overt) partisanship on in Senate. If Warren Kinsella's argument against independent senators is that it may make it difficult for future Liberal PMs to rally the troops, so to speak, well isn't that the Senate's purpose? To give a sober second read without political gamesmanship? I'm not so naive to think that this will magically make the Senate non-partisan, but I don't see how it hurts that effort. 

b) It's a bold move out of a party that has been stagnating for quite some time. If the Liberal party doesn't want to become the Has-Been Party, they need moves like this.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I don't see a downside to ending (overt) partisanship on in Senate.


Great. How does removing their name tags achieve that?



Sonal said:


> b) It's a bold move out of a party that has been stagnating for quite some time. If the Liberal party doesn't want to become the Has-Been Party, they need moves like this.


I think they need a lot more of these bold moves--then they can be certain it's time to look for another leader instead of dithering about it.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Great. How does removing their name tags achieve that?
> 
> I think they need a lot more of these bold moves--then they can be certain it's time to look for another leader instead of dithering about it.


Well, should Trudeau become PM, if the old guard Liberal senators don't like his bold moves, they aren't compelled to rubber-stamp them....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Well, should Trudeau become PM, if the old guard Liberal senators don't like his bold moves, they aren't compelled to rubber-stamp them....


They were never compelled to do that--each of the MPs and Senators choose to either vote with their conscience or with the party.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I lost all respect for Warren Kinsella's opinion the day I read a post-election article by him that contained the phrase "Ignatieff ran a brilliant campaign." Um, no.
> 
> I still haven't made up my mind whether Trudeau's decision on the Senate was just so crazy it's brilliant, or just so crazy. Time will tell.
> 
> However:
> a) I don't see a downside to ending (overt) partisanship on in Senate. If Warren Kinsella's argument against independent senators is that it may make it difficult for future Liberal PMs to rally the troops, so to speak, well isn't that the Senate's purpose? To give a sober second read without political gamesmanship? I'm not so naive to think that this will magically make the Senate non-partisan, but I don't see how it hurts that effort.
> 
> b) It's a bold move out of a party that has been stagnating for quite some time. If the Liberal party doesn't want to become the Has-Been Party, they need moves like this.


pretty much sums up how I feel about this. There's also the optics of this, which most of the nay-sayer drivel I've read seems to completely discount.

Which is likely why the hue and cry about how this is political suicide blah blah is so shrill me thinks.


----------



## Macfury

It's the optics that are most embarrassing.


----------



## groovetube

For Harper and his hands so deep in a scandal argued senate, one he was supposed to reform... Yeah.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> For Harper and his hands so deep in a scandal argued senate, one he was supposed to reform... Yeah.


The senators themselves are mired in scandal--a state, I suspect, in which many Liberal senators will soon find themselves. 

Attempting to get the senate to vote itself into an elected senate was possibly the most substantial attempt at senate reform in quote some time.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The senators themselves are mired in scandal--a state, I suspect, in which many Liberal senators will soon find themselves.
> 
> Attempting to get the senate to vote itself into an elected senate was possibly the most substantial attempt at senate reform in quote some time.


Is this post tapatalk's fault as well? 

Harpers hands are far from clean as clearly many Canadians don't believe Harper's story that he was hapless in the payout scheme and coverup attempts.

Not to mention appointing 59 of them. 

And to think Harper half assed attempts at senate reform was anything but a mere show is gullible at best. And you think Trudeau's move is vacuous??

Ha ha ha ha.


----------



## Macfury

That "scandal argued" senate?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That "scandal argued" senate?


it's been 'quote' some time since I've made that mistake.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> it's been 'quote' some time since I've made that mistake.


It's Tapatalk--I know it!


----------



## groovetube

not in my case. It's iPhone auto-correct, and the small font for my old eyes where I don't have my reading glasses around.


----------



## Macfury

As a recent convert to glasses, I'll cut you some slack there.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Hunh???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is still a Liberal.
> 
> 
> 
> And one who can't get his facts straight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's living in the past, senators must retire now at the age of 75, it is not a lifetime position. Also I didn't know that an infant could be appointed as a senator, thereby also disproving his "lifetime income" statement.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the best you've got skippy to indicate that conservatives support JT's ill thought out/"bold" move?
> 
> 
> 
> You need to try a little harder.



Note the encyclopedia's use of small l liberal. Not Liberal party. 

You probably know the diff. 

Fulford was a prof of mine once upon a time. I can assure you he is generally a Con supporter.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Leave the Cons over disrespect to our vets - U betcha.*

Advocate quits Conservative party as veterans groups prepare to step up pressure


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*This 'ill give Harper more gas*

Pipeline rupture report raises questions about TransCanada inspections - Canada - CBC News

Oops.


----------



## Macfury

Been a while since we've seen that news aggregator link. I guess it's better than Jimbo's pictures of feces.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Post was made prior to aggregator posting, so you heard it here first.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Peter Russell on the Senate breakthrough*

"Removing Senators from the party caucus in and of itself will not make for much of a change. But it is a logical preliminary step to building a second chamber whose members are not chosen for the political affiliations but for their accomplishments and expertise."

A Breakthrough On Senate Reform | National Newswatch


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau is doomed.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> "Removing Senators from the party caucus in and of itself will not make for much of a change. But it is a logical preliminary step to building a second chamber whose members are not chosen for the political affiliations but for their accomplishments and expertise."
> 
> A Breakthrough On Senate Reform | National Newswatch


Read it jimbo. He wants the Prime Minister to appoint these "non-partisans." I see the author is a member of the Order of Canada--I suspect the guy hopes to be appointed to the senate on his "merits."


----------



## SINC

Senate scandal: Harb, Brazeau charged with fraud, breach of trust | Toronto Star

*The RCMP has laid charges of breach of trust and fraud against former Liberal senator Mac Harb and former Conservative senator Patrick Brazeau.*



> In a move that underscores the seriousness of its ongoing probe, the RCMP has laid charges of breach of trust and fraud against former Liberal senator Mac Harb and former Conservative senator Patrick Brazeau.
> 
> Harb, who retired in August under a cloud, and Brazeau, who remains a senator but has been suspended, are among four senators facing investigation by the Mounties in relation to thousands of dollars in travel or housing claims which the Senate paid out.
> 
> Gilles Michaud, assistant commissioner of the RCMP, announced the charges at a news conference Tuesday morning. He said Brazeau and Harb would be appearing in court “soon.”
> 
> Harb has additionally been under investigation for mortgage fraud. Michaud said Tuesday there was not enough evidence to support that charge.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like the reason for JT's pitiful tactic is now out of the bag.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oops.


While not letting TransCanada off the hook, the first question I'd ask is why is this just getting questioned by the Dene now, 4-1/2 years after the event?

Aside from TC officials & staff, they're largely the only ones who knew. Why hasn't it become a matter of public record prior to this?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Looks like the reason for JT's pitiful tactic is now out of the bag.


Harb left the Liberal party long before JT expelled the rest of the senators. plus JT never appointed any of them.

Who appointed Brazeau again?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Harb left the Liberal party long before JT expelled the rest of the senators. plus JT never appointed any of them.
> 
> Who appointed Brazeau again?


The Liberal Senators belong to JT, even if he removed their nametags. Harb's stench is on the Liberals, regardless of when he decided to remove his.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The Liberal Senators belong to JT, even if he removed their nametags. Harb's stench is on the Liberals, regardless of when he decided to remove his.


if what you say is true i can't possibly imagine the stench on Harper & the Conservatives from Brazeau, Wallin & Duffy. Plus he actually _personally_ appointed them (not to mention he also *personally* went over Wallin's expenses and reassured the country everything was kosher). Plus Brazeau is accused of abusing a woman. Plus Duffygate....

he must smell absolutely rotten....

the idea that conservatives claiming any of this looks bad on JT is ludicrous when one considers Harper's *personal* ties to toxic Senators.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> if what you say is true i can't possibly imagine the stench on Harper & the Conservatives from Brazeau, Wallin & Duffy. Plus he actually _personally_ appointed them (not to mention he also *personally* went over Wallin's expenses and reassured the country everything was kosher). Plus Brazeau is accused of abusing a woman. Plus Duffygate....
> 
> he must smell absolutely rotten....
> 
> the idea that conservatives claiming any of this looks bad on JT is ludicrous when one considers Harper's *personal* ties to toxic Senators.


So you're saying the smell is only on Harper, but never the Liberals, because JT is the new guy in town? Incredible!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> So you're saying the smell is only on Harper, but never the Liberals, because JT is the new guy in town? Incredible!


no, what i'm saying is *if* there is any smell on Trudeau, it would pale in comparison to Harper.

if JT happens to have a bit of this mess on his shoe (from incidental contact), Harper is waist deep in it.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> no, what i'm saying is *if* there is any smell on Trudeau, it would pale in comparison to Harper.
> 
> if JT happens to have a bit of this mess on his shoe (from incidental contact), Harper is waist deep in it.


That's exactly right, and why the conservatives are so desperate to fling thing on Trudeau. Sour grapes that their leader is looking worse and worse on this.

Perhaps Warren Kinsella was banking on a senate appointment when the liberals get in, and isn't happy seeing this potentially go up in smoke.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Perhaps Warren Kinsella was banking on a senate appointment when the liberals get in, and isn't happy seeing this potentially go up in smoke.


Perhaps Kinsella's analysis was bang on & had nothing to do with the hopes of securing a senate appointment...


----------



## FeXL

Oh, Canada!

The World's Most Reputable Countries, 2013



> Which countries have the best reputations? What does that even mean? The Reputation Institute, a global private consulting firm based in New York and Copenhagen, has just released its fourth annual list of 50 countries, ranked according to what it says is people’s trust, admiration, respect and affinity for those countries.
> 
> *Topping the list for the third year in a row: Canada.*


M'bold.



> One reason the U.S. doesn’t rank higher [22nd], says Fernando Prado, a managing partner at the Reputation Institute, is that when asked what was most important to them in gauging a country’s reputation, *respondents said it was effective government and appealing environment* a bit more than an advanced economy.


M'bold.

Huh. Who knew that Harper & the oil sands would be more popular than Obie & the EPA?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Senate scandal: Harb, Brazeau charged with fraud, breach of trust | Toronto Star
> 
> *The RCMP has laid charges of breach of trust and fraud against former Liberal senator Mac Harb and former Conservative senator Patrick Brazeau.*


More to come! Yeah! Fry them.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More to come! Yeah! Fry them.


While I have no particular sympathies either way for Harb or Brazeau. It is common place for you to want to round up a posse and string them up high before due process has occurred.

Everyone is guilty until proven innocent in your books.

Same as it ever was.

Seeing as you seem to have these proclivities, why don't you emigrate to... I don't know... North Korea, where this kind of attitude is dominant and thus your attitudes would fit right in.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> While I have no particular sympathies either way for Harb or Brazeau. It is common place for you to want to round up a posse and string them up high before due process has occurred.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is guilty until proven innocent in your books.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as it ever was.
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as you seem to have these proclivities, why don't you emigrate to... I don't know... North Korea, where this kind of attitude is dominant and thus your attitudes would fit right in.



Yuk yuk yuk. We're waiting for the main event.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yuk yuk yuk. We're waiting for the main event.


skippy! do you realize you're acting just like Mr. Harper?

Everyone is guilty until proven innocent is directly from the PMO to Senate playbook!

"Same as ever was." For shame skippy?

"seeing as you seem to have these proclivities, why don't you emigrate to... I don't know... North Korea, where this kind of attitude is dominant and thus your attitudes would fit right in." …skippy! Who shall be in your entourage of like proclivities? Just Mr. Harper? Mr. Harper and the PMO? Mr. Harper, the PMO and the Cabinet? Mr. Harper the PMO, the Cabinet, the Conservative Senators and entire Conservative caucus?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> skippy! do you realize you're acting just like Mr. Harper?
> 
> Everyone is guilty until proven innocent is directly from the PMO to Senate playbook!
> 
> "Same as ever was." For shame skippy?
> 
> "seeing as you seem to have these proclivities, why don't you emigrate to... I don't know... North Korea, where this kind of attitude is dominant and thus your attitudes would fit right in." …skippy! Who shall be in your entourage of like proclivities? Just Mr. Harper? Mr. Harper and the PMO? Mr. Harper, the PMO and the Cabinet? Mr. Harper the PMO, the Cabinet, the Conservative Senators and entire Conservative caucus?


BigDL you need to try a lot harder to have any credibility.

That post was incredibly weak IMO... I could say so much more but, "discretion is the better part of valor" so I won't.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yuk yuk yuk. We're waiting for the main event.


Like a public lynching before a judge/jury decides? 

It seems like that is right within your chosen wheel house.

String 'em and let them/him dangle, "FRY THEM":





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Like a public lynching before a judge/jury decides?
> 
> It seems like that is right within your chosen wheel house.
> 
> String 'em and let them/him dangle, "FRY THEM":


So great is jimbo's love for Canadian democracy, that the process of justice has become meaningless to him.


----------



## groovetube

Why Stephen Harper owes Canadian Muslims an apology - The Globe and Mail

Speaking of 'the process of justice'...

I wonder if anyone has really found ties between the NCCM and Hamas.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I wonder if anyone has really found ties between the NCCM and Hamas.


Yes, as Aziz says, you could make the case that the NCCM's parent organization had relationships with Hamas before it was officially designated a terrorist organization. That's why I think the NCCM would be better off dropping it. Changing its name was part of a move to distance itself from CAIR and this discussion is only re-establishing that older link.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yes, as Aziz says, you could make the case that the NCCM's parent organization had relationships with Hamas before it was officially designated a terrorist organization. That's why I think the NCCM would be better off dropping it. Changing its name was part of a move to distance itself from CAIR and this discussion is only re-establishing that older link.


That's easy for YOU to say macfury. The Canadian government didn't wrongly accuse you and/or your organization of having ties to terrorists.

In the real world, there's consequences for that.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> That's easy for YOU to say macfury. The Canadian government didn't wrongly accuse you and/or your organization of having ties to terrorists.


Is this what constitutes an argument or discussion?

What's your point? They didn't accuse you, either. 

And, this:



groovetube said:


> In the real world, there's consequences for that.


coming from you.

The irony is powerful with this one...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL, it's simply a non-argument on gt's part, based on shrill emotion. NCCM should simply bring the suit forward instead of demanding an apology at this point.


----------



## FeXL

I know. It's his typical fallback position. Must comment, but have nothing salient to add to the discussion. Ah! I know! Another content-free post...


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> FeXL, it's simply a non-argument on gt's part, based on shrill emotion. NCCM should simply bring the suit forward instead of demanding an apology at this point.


Ok macfury, well then present some proof that they do have ties to Hamas. I mean, if your friend's old friend from 20 years ago was in the KKK, that must mean you're a white supremacist right?

Otherwise, then you think it's perfectly ok for the Canadian government, to publicly, and wrongly accuse an organization of being linked to terrorism?

You can pull out all the mafurisms like shrill, emotion, blah blah, but let's get down to brass tacks.

Do you think it was ok for the government to do that? I'd be a little surprised given that you're all 'life is my own' freedom stuff, that you would think someone should just bend over and take being wrongly labelled publicly like that!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Ok macfury, well then present some proof that they do have ties to Hamas.


Ok groovetube, well then present some proof that CBO's numbers on Obie-Care were incorrect.

<crickets>...

It's always about you until it comes time to shore up your argument with an actual fact. Then comes the blame, the bluster, the twisting, the deflection, the squirming, the circular arguments & the content free posts. And, after having been caught out, it's still incumbent upon someone _else_ to provide proof.

Then, on top of it all, you whine & cry "victim" because somebody handed your butt to you on a public forum.

Brass tacks, alright. WTF do you know about brass tacks?


----------



## eMacMan

I see that as I predicted, Flaherty caved entirely and signed a FATCA IGA. Enabling legislation is to be snuck through on the budget omnibus bill. Some early thoughts as I still have a lot to review.

To clear up some blatant lies:

This has nothing to do with catching tax cheats. Wealthy Americans do not move to Canada to somehow pay less in taxes. Canadian tax rates are higher so such a move would by definition fail.

This is an agreement between Canada and the US Treasury Dept. The US government is not bound by the conditions, so any claims of reciprocity are mostly bogus. The information that the US will share is already being shared.

While they are claiming a minor victory in that banks will not have to report RRSPs, TFSAa etc, the early interpretation is that Americans will still be subjected to horrific (as in the IRS will take everything) penalties if they do not include them on their F(u)BARS, 8938s..... 

*While they state that the CRA will not help the IRS collect taxes or penalties, there does not seem to be any language that would prevent the IRS from pressuring banks into closing or freezing customer accounts to the same end.*

The claim from Flaherty is that some minor information on Americans bank accounts is being shared. This extends beyond US citizens, the IRS can lay claim to individuals that are not in any way a US citizen. The information the IRS demands is pretty much every transaction on every account. Details that at this point in time the Mounties would need a court order to obtain.

BTW It is absolutely disgusting that the Finance Minister did not at least offer ironclad protection to any non-US citizens who have not recently physically resided in the US.

Another deliberate deception is the claim that the information being transmitted is somehow secure. Even if Canada manages to keep their own Database secure, the information is being transmitted to the IRS. The IRS admits point blank that it will share this information with the NSA, FBI, CIA, HSA, a host of other acronyms and even other nations. Ignoring the hacking potential which is very real, how can that in any way be called secure?

A personal observation: While the Finance Minister seemed extremely concerned about protecting Canadian Banks and respecting US sovereignty. The failure to demand that the US equally respect Canadian sovereignty is appalling! As is his failure to defend the rights of Canadians.


----------



## Dr.G.

Don't forget that the bank fees to consumers will be going up to cover their needless costs for FACTA. tptptptp


----------



## groovetube

didn't an NDP bill to lower them get squashed?


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Don't forget that the bank fees to consumers will be going up to cover their needless costs for FACTA. tptptptp


Not for long Dr. G. Once you turn 65 the CIBC drops all bank charges to seniors so you do have something to look forward to this year. Be sure to alert them to your birthday or it won't happen.


----------



## Macfury

The notion of the Canadian government controlling bank fees is ludicrous. What it needs to do is to stop favouring Chartered Banks, then leave the fee system alone.


----------



## groovetube

I disagree. If the banks were able to show some restraint and not continue to charge such ridiculous fees perhaps we could leave them alone.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I disagree. If the banks were able to show some restraint and not continue to charge such ridiculous fees perhaps we could leave them alone.


How does this sound? 

"If web developers and drummers could show some restraint in what they charge, perhaps we wouldn't need to regulate their fees."

Does that sound as sweet as when it's applied to a bank?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> How does this sound?
> 
> "If web developers and drummers could show some restraint in what they charge, perhaps we wouldn't need to regulate their fees."
> 
> Does that sound as sweet as when it's applied to a bank?


If I were one of only a few drummers in town that charged exorbitant rates then what you said would make sense.

Since that isn't the case, your comparison is a bag of crap. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> If I were one of only a few drummers in town that charged exorbitant rates then what you said would make sense.
> 
> Since that isn't the case, your comparison is a bag of crap. :lmao:


If you have such a Little Man mentality that you believe the government should intervene, even if the price of drummers was too high, then there's little point in discussing it further. You could justify wage and price intervention on almost anything on that basis.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If you have such a Little Man mentality that you believe the government should intervene, even if the price of drummers was too high, then there's little point in discussing it further. You could justify wage and price intervention on almost anything on that basis.


ah there we go. You've gone into the 'you're a little man' phase. When you're there, you're right about not discussing much further.

Why don't you get your 'big man mentality' out and testify! :lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Don't forget that the bank fees to consumers will be going up to cover their needless costs for FACTA. tptptptp


Yes financial institutions world wide are expected to spend over a Trillion dollars being assimilated into the FATCA black hole. The US is expecting to collect just over a Billion in taxes but the penalties attached to forms that have nothing to do with taxes owed could easily amount to 100s of Billions.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Not for long Dr. G. Once you turn 65 the CIBC drops all bank charges to seniors so you do have something to look forward to this year. Be sure to alert them to your birthday or it won't happen.


Yes, I have had a no-fee policy with Scotiabank since they have our mortgage and line of credit, and a no-fee policy with CIBC since they have my RRSP. All I did was ask for this a few years ago and they agreed.

Sadly, the vast majority of Canadians are going to get more fees tacked on to their accounts because of FACTA. I have filed my US taxes, owe nothing to the IRS, but I shall still be viewed with suspicion. I am glad that they are cracking down on off-shore accounts but Newfoundland and Labrador is not exactly the Cayman Islands.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, the vast majority of Canadians are going to get more fees tacked on to their accounts because of FACTA. I have filed my US taxes, owe nothing to the IRS, but I shall still be viewed with suspicion. I am glad that they are cracking down on off-shore accounts but Newfoundland and Labrador is not exactly the Cayman Islands.


President Obama is casting a wide net to help the poor.


----------



## groovetube

or to help pay back all the money used to fight "operation Iraqi freedom".


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy. Harper's drummer charged with sexual assault of a minor!

http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/media...-06/197a2209-1ed7-47b7-944c-117087612f48.aspx


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> ...
> 
> Sadly, the vast majority of Canadians are going to get more fees tacked on to their accounts because of FACTA. I have filed my US taxes, owe nothing to the IRS, but I shall still be viewed with suspicion. I am glad that they are cracking down on off-shore accounts but Newfoundland and Labrador is not exactly the Cayman Islands.





Macfury said:


> President Obama is casting a wide net to help the poor.


You missed it by that much;

BO is casting a wide net to help himself to every dime the poor may have saved.

I will also echo Dr. Gs sentiments. 

BTW It sounds like the Conmen have decided to create a two tier citizenship system. Any American that dares to protest Canada telling them: "Bend over for FATCA." shall be labelled an extremist or terrorist and stripped of their Canadian citizenship. Those who have relinquished or renounced and are merely standing up for the other 2 or 3 million Canadians impacted shall presumably be left stateless and placed on the next available ice floe.

That makes two major league violations of the Canadian Charter of Rights in two days. That has to be some sort of record which has the Bush Baby and BO green with envy.


----------



## Macfury

A child was assaulted--and you want to use that sad fact in some sort of casual joke to cast aspersions on the Prime Minister? You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## groovetube

was there a 'casual joke'???


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> A child was assaulted--and you want to use that sad fact in some sort of casual joke to cast aspersions on the Prime Minister? You should be ashamed of yourself.


I fail to see the connection as well. 

Besides the PM is doing an admirable job of shooting himself in the foot. He has now alienated a lot of veterans, any voters with American ties and most immigrant citizens. That's a pretty big chunk out the Conman base. I am hoping he pays dearly come election time.


----------



## FeXL

macfury said:


> a child was assaulted--and you want to use that sad fact in some sort of casual joke to cast aspersions on the prime minister? You should be ashamed of yourself.


+1


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> A child was assaulted--and you want to use that sad fact in some sort of casual joke to cast aspersions on the Prime Minister? You should be ashamed of yourself.


interesting, I just looked at most of the Canadian media headlines, and every one of them referred to him as "Harper's drummer".

Now what joke, are you referring to... and are you yourself using this sad fact to club Skippy over the head??


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sad so sad.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A little detail. http://m.thestar.com/#!/breaking-ne...xual-assault/fc9c3a5016e7369308766cb23598c682


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A little history of Herringbone....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...h-a-little-help-from-his-wife/article4287968/


----------



## BigDL

The only connection to Mr. Harper, is his judgement, in people, close to him and his brand of 'hockey loving, musically inclined regular guy" so it goes to pooh once again.


----------



## FeXL

FeXL said:


> +1


Some clarifying information could have been posted with the original. I doubt many people are familiar with Harper's band mate's names. I'm certainly not.

As such, I retract my agreement of the criticism. Apologies.

That said, how does this have anything to do with Harper, aside from the fact that he knows the guy? Just trying to get mileage out of a name? Pretty petty, on all accounts...


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> was there a 'casual joke'???


the joke is Harper has a band and every once in a while the Canadian public is subjected to hear them.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> hat said, how does this have anything to do with Harper, aside from the fact that he knows the guy? Just trying to get mileage out of a name? Pretty petty, on all accounts...


Why is this being posted in the Canadian Political thread?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> The only connection to Mr. Harper, is his judgement, in people, close to him and his brand of 'hockey loving, musically inclined regular guy" so it goes to pooh once again.


This is pure bull****e. Trying to connect him to a casual relationship with a drummer is ridiculous. Harper could have no knowledge of his drummer's actions while teaching at school.

Jaysus, can you ever admit your hatred for conservatives is fuelled by any opportunity to smear them?


----------



## Aurora

^ +1


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whew boy. Harper's drummer charged with sexual assault of a minor!
> 
> News Releases - Ottawa Police Service / Service de police d'Ottawa > Ottawa Police charged local teacher with several historical sex offenses


Yup this is right within your wheelhouse to think that this has anything to do with Harper. 

Pathetic IMO.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> interesting, I just looked at most of the Canadian media headlines, and every one of them referred to him as "Harper's drummer".
> 
> Now what joke, are you referring to... and are you yourself using this sad fact to club Skippy over the head??





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sad so sad.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A little detail. TheStar





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A little history of Herringbone....
> 
> Harper performed with a little help from his wife - The Globe and Mail


Really?



> *...in relation to incidents that occurred between 1998 and 2000.*


And Harper is supposed to know about it when no one else did up until know.?

And not to mention at this point they are only accusations...

As always with you jimbo/skippy/stink, guilty until proven innocent.

There are a number of jurisdictions in this world that think like that. Why not emigrate to one, you might feel more at home.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> the joke is Harper has a band and every once in a while the Canadian public is subjected to hear them.


Really?

It seems to me a guy named Clinton took to playing really bad sax to endear himself to the public.

The joke is your post and lack of memory/knowledge of what it takes to be a "popular"politician....

Robert Stanfield was the best PM Canada never had in part because he was caught on camera flubbing catching a football...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The only connection to Mr. Harper, is his judgement, in people, close to him and his brand of *'hockey loving, musically inclined regular guy" *so it goes to pooh once again.


Very telling... of you.


----------



## groovetube

jesus. I haven't said anything of the kind. I was wondering what macfury thought was such a joke, since none was insinuated. Of course he never enlightened us.

If he clicked on the link, he would have seen that it was the papers not skippy who referred to this guy as Harper's drummer.

I don't know anything really about who knew what and didn't. So let's calm down. If this guy is guilty, well he should burn in a hot place.

As for Harper's performances, it's lost it's novelty a while ago. The first time, was funny. The second, well ok. But by the time I saw hime last time round I thought ok, it's really time to hang it up because man, he's bad. REAL bad. Now, I'm not against people having some fun, a drink, and some jamming, hell everyone should have a go. But performing for international leaders, eeesh.

Embarrassing. And I can honestly say that's without any regard to what I think of Harper in general.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Really?
> 
> It seems to me a guy named Clinton took to playing really bad sax to endear himself to the public.
> 
> The joke is your post and lack of memory/knowledge of what it takes to be a "popular"politician....
> 
> Robert Stanfield was the best PM Canada never had in part because he was caught on camera flubbing catching a football...


it's certainly your prerogative if you find butchering Beatles tunes "endearing". It certainly isn't endearing to me, doubly so when sung by someone who totally misunderstands the central tenets of their music.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> it's certainly your prerogative if you find butchering Beatles tunes "endearing". It certainly isn't endearing to me, doubly so when sung by someone who totally misunderstands the central tenets of their music.


You totally missed the point...

Next.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> You totally missed the point...
> 
> Next.


that's funny, you missed the point of the joke.


----------



## eMacMan

Even though my general rule is to believe a politician is pure slime until proven otherwise, I am more than willing to believe that Harpo was unaware of his drummers hobby.

OTH this man has twice in two days committed direct assaults on the Canadian Charter of Rights. Specifically the FATCA IGA and the two tier citizenship bill. Toss in his total disrespect of Canadian vets and he has completely squandered what little respect I still had for him.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Even though my general rule is to believe a politician is pure slime until proven otherwise, I am more than willing to believe that Harpo was unaware of his drummers hobby.
> 
> OTH this man has twice in two days committed direct assaults on the Canadian Charter of Rights. Specifically the FATCA IGA and the two tier citizenship bill. Toss in his total disrespect of Canadian vets and he has completely squandered what little respect I still had for him.


What about the Canadian taxpayer???? Have you no respect for them and how they are being treated???? Or, have you gone over to the "dark side" and gotten a job with a US bank???? :greedy:


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> If he clicked on the link, he would have seen that it was the papers not skippy who referred to this guy as Harper's drummer.


If you actually clicked on the first link, the one that MF responded to, you'd find that there is absolutely zero reference to a drummer or a musician or Harper, anywhere. The article speaks specifically about a teacher and nothing else.

More eyesight problems or just issues with perspective?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's the most thorough article on the Harper drummer scandal :

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/P...d+with+sexually+assaulting/9477420/story.html

Good on a Liberal for standing up for Harper and showing some non-partisan compassion for a PM who can't get a break lately.

Liberal MP Rodger Cuzner said after Question Period Thursday that the charges are upsetting but he can’t fault Harper for knowing Nolan.
“I don’t know how close their friendship was or anything, but obviously it’s a serious charge and I’m sure the prime minister is upset about it as well,” Cuzner said.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Country of Origin labelling*

I'm with the U.S, on this one and wish we (Canada) had country of origin labelling along with full disclosure of ingredient content on all foods.

Canada gets rough lesson in U.S. politics today - National | Globalnews.ca

I generally will not purchase U.S. beef given the high tolerance for steroids and anti-biotics that their system permits. It's pretty tough to tell where our food comes from at times. I find that disclosure varies from store to store in Canada. Whenever the package label says Canadian AA or USDA AA or better, we will not purchase it.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Even though my general rule is to believe a politician is pure slime until proven otherwise, I am more than willing to believe that Harpo was unaware of his drummers hobby.
> 
> OTH this man has twice in two days committed direct assaults on the Canadian Charter of Rights. Specifically the FATCA IGA and the two tier citizenship bill. Toss in his total disrespect of Canadian vets and he has completely squandered what little respect I still had for him.


not to mention Harper seems to have had a little bad luck with a few people turning out to be real slime balls or criminals.


----------



## BigDL

It was very interesting this morning listening to a New Brunswick Conservative MP speak more and more and say less and less. At least Tilly O'Neill Gordon MP Miramichi did not hide like the other Conservative MPs.

The NDP's lone New Brunswick MP Yvon Godin is bravely fighting to retain passenger rail service for the Maritimes and the Gaspé. 

Eastern Canada could lose rail service without help from feds: NDP | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> It was very interesting this morning listening to a New Brunswick Conservative MP speak more and more and say less and less. At least Tilly O'Neill Gordon MP Miramichi did not hide like the other Conservative MPs.
> 
> The NDP's lone New Brunswick MP Yvon Godin is bravely fighting to retain passenger rail service for the Maritimes and the Gaspé.
> 
> Eastern Canada could lose rail service without help from feds: NDP | Globalnews.ca


As you stated BigDL, that track could be purchased for the price of 6 kilometres of two-lane highway--and yet New Brunswick doesn't think it's a good enough deal to pursue on its own. Why should the federal government think the deal is better for people who don't live in New Brunswick?

Lisa Raitt is correct. That line needs to be supported by riders, not by some romantic notion of rail travel and the insistence of a few NB rail riders who believe rail travel is their right.

Godin is certainly brave. I would be ashamed to be screeching like that in public without any real message other than that New Brunswick is ready to receive a handout.

How much is Quebec offering to support this section of rail line, by the way?


----------



## groovetube

it isn't a 'handout' if the federal government receives tax money from new brunswick. It's a question of whether he can convince the federal government that this is a worthwhile project to allocate funds to.

Somehow the right wing characterizes this sort of thing as handouts, as if the federal government is some kind of sugar mamma corporation giving it's own profits to help the needy.


----------



## BigDL

*Further to VIA Rail cuts in NB*

Eastern Canada could lose rail service without help from feds: NDP | Globalnews.ca

Here is the interview with Tilley O'Neill Gordon speaking more and more and saying less and less, for your consideration and entertainment.

Rallying for rail - Information Morning - Moncton - CBC Player (The first of the piece refers to Yvon Godin then you may enjoy the vocal stylings of Tilley O'Neill Gordon)


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Somehow the right wing characterizes this sort of thing as handouts, as if the federal government is some kind of sugar mamma corporation giving it's own profits to help the needy.


No. It's my money. And people demanding rail service they can't afford does not strike me as "needy." It's greedy.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No. It's my money. And people demanding rail service they can't afford does not strike me as "needy." It's greedy.


Oh, I see, it's macfury's money. So because it's MACFURY'S money it makes what macfury says the end of the story?

This kind of explains a lot of things!


----------



## Macfury

New Brunswick doesn't value that stretch of railroad enough to pay for it, nor do its riders. The federal government is looking out for my money on this one. Now *that's* the end of the story.



groovetube said:


> Oh, I see, it's macfury's money. So because it's MACFURY'S money it makes what macfury says the end of the story?


----------



## BigDL

*More NB Conservative Foolishness*

On a weekly political panel the NB Finance Minister had these observations as why he could not balance the budget on time with heaps of blame for the Liberals.

For you entertainment I present the machinations of Blane Higg's re-election strategy. tptptptp 

Blaine Higgs blames politics for unbalanced budgets - New Brunswick - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> On a weekly political panel the NB Finance Minister had these observations as why he could not balance the budget on time with heaps of blame for the Liberals.


While I don't admire his gumption, I admire his honesty. He's right.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> New Brunswick doesn't value that stretch of railroad enough to pay for it, nor do its riders. The federal government is looking out for my money on this one. Now *that's* the end of the story.


just like Rob Ford was looking out for your money when he voted against the tree trimming budget and then the ice storm happened, probably resulting in millions more in damage.

I can see how this logic works! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

.


----------



## eMacMan

The CRA has modified form T1135 for those filers who have or have had over $100,000 in foreign assets. Interestingly it appears that US based assets through Canadian based brokerages are considered foreign. This could have an impact on Canadian investors as anyone with over $100,000 in foreign assets is required to file this form (You don't have to include that Florida Condo unless you rent it out at a profit).

While the penalties are not nearly as devastating as F(u)BARS, 8938s or 3520s are to Americans, the $25/day penalty could add up over time.

Mentioning this only because tax time is coming quickly and I am willing to bet that many investors are unaware of this little twist, and under FATCA your bank or brokerage will most likely pass this info to the CRA, whether or not you happen to be American.

In any event unlike the American F(u)BARS the T1135 is well laid out and more importantly comprehensible. Investors who see no issues with financial institutions giving account information to the CRA, IRS, NSA, CIA, HSA and a host of other acronyms, should have no problems making similar revelations on their own investment accounts. 

Incidentally under current Canadian law even the CRA would require a court order to obtain the information that Canadian financial institutions will be required to pass along on a routine basis.

Of course if the IRS should happen to decide you are American, and under the FATCA IGA the IRS determines whether or not you are American, you will be facing all those F(u)BAR, 8938 and 3520 penalties which can easily take everything you own. 

BTW You do not have to be an American citizen or even recently have resided in the US for the IRS to call you an American. If the IRS decides they want to FATCA you, get ready to live on the street.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> The CRA has modified form T1135 for those filers who have or have had over $100,000 in foreign assets. Interestingly it appears that US based assets through Canadian based brokerages are considered foreign. This could have an impact on Canadian investors as anyone with over $100,000 in foreign assets is required to file this form (You don't have to include that Florida Condo unless you rent it out at a profit).
> 
> While the penalties are not nearly as devastating as F(u)BARS, 8938s or 3520s are to Americans, the $25/day penalty could add up over time.
> 
> Mentioning this only because tax time is coming quickly and I am willing to bet that many investors are unaware of this little twist, and under FATCA your bank or brokerage will most likely pass this info to the CRA, whether or not you happen to be American.
> 
> In any event unlike the American F(u)BARS the T1135 is well laid out and more importantly comprehensible. Investors who see no issues with financial institutions giving account information to the CRA, IRS, NSA, CIA, HSA and a host of other acronyms, should have no problems making similar revelations on their own investment accounts.
> 
> Incidentally under current Canadian law even the CRA would require a court order to obtain the information that Canadian financial institutions will be required to pass along on a routine basis.
> 
> Of course if the IRS should happen to decide you are American, and under the FATCA IGA the IRS determines whether or not you are American, you will be facing all those F(u)BAR, 8938 and 3520 penalties which can easily take everything you own.
> 
> BTW You do not have to be an American citizen or even recently have resided in the US for the IRS to call you an American. If the IRS decides they want to FATCA you, get ready to live on the street.


Best just to stash your money outside of a bank, eMacMan.


----------



## groovetube

well I'm certainly glad I don't need to take any extreme measures of secretly burying my huge bank vault. Phew.


----------



## Macfury

I like to dive in my money bin like a porpoise.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> well I'm certainly glad I don't need to take any extreme measures of secretly burying my huge bank vault. Phew.


Very wise, gt. :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I like to dive in my money bin like a porpoise.


You and Scrooge McDuck, Macfury. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBRrCY5uhWY]Uncle Scrooge - The Daily Money Swim - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

There's his lucky dime!


----------



## FeXL

Wynne’s flip-flop on paying off deficit



> In his budget speech last May, Ontario Finance Minister Charles Sousa was unequivocal about what he said was the Liberal government’s top economic priority.
> 
> “Mr. Speaker, let me make it clear,” *Sousa said, “Our government believes eliminating the deficit is the single most important step we can take to grow the economy and create jobs.”*


Horse feathers & bull pucky...


----------



## Macfury

Keeping that old horse Kathleen Wynne in power is their top priority!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Keeping *that old horse Kathleen Wynne* in power is their top priority!


That's treading on some pretty thin ice when it comes to potentially being a sexist comment...

Just sayin'...


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> That's treading on some pretty thin ice when it comes to potentially being a sexist comment...
> 
> Just sayin'...


How so? While I agree it insults horses, there's no such thing as an old stallion or gelding?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> That's treading on some pretty thin ice when it comes to potentially being a sexist comment...
> 
> Just sayin'...


"Horse" is equal-opportunity, politics being a horse race and all.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> How so? While I agree it insults horses, there's no such thing as an old stallion or gelding?





Macfury said:


> "Horse" is equal-opportunity, politics being a horse race and all.


Well an old *female* horse has a certain word that is associated with the description that I think you are probably familiar with... and it isn't complimentary.

I'm just sayin' that such comments that could be easily misinterpreted are not really all that helpful in the bigger picture of things...


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well an old *female* horse has a certain word that is associated with the description that I think you are probably familiar with... and it isn't complimentary.


I could see your point if I had said she was an old nag.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I could see your point if I had said she was an old nag.


I know you didn't, but it didn't' take me long (a few seconds) to deduce that is how it could be interpreted.... especially by those who may have a bone to pick with you...

Hey, it is part of what I do to pay attention to such things...

Like I said 3 times now, I'm just sayin'.

As I have said for years now communication is the weak spot for the CPC.

You are always free to say what you want and I am always free to comment on what you say.

Aren't we lucky!

:clap:


----------



## groovetube

No biggie. There's worse than 'old nag'. Especially in politcs.

Ontario politics is pretty balled up. The liberals are tired and probably should be canned, but the problem is the alternatives.

Hudak is just an complete idiot, and could quite possibly top David Peterson for worst premier ever. Horvath, I don't know that that would be an improvement. 

The best I can hope for is no one gets a majority so they can have carte Blanche to really screw things up, much like we're seeing federally right now.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *No biggie. There's worse than 'old nag'. Especially in politcs.*
> 
> Ontario politics is pretty balled up. The liberals are tired and probably should be canned, but the problem is the alternatives.
> 
> Hudak is just an complete idiot, and could quite possibly top David Peterson for worst premier ever. Horvath, I don't know that that would be an improvement.
> 
> The best I can hope for is no one gets a majority so they can have carte Blanche to really screw things up, much like we're seeing federally right now.


Actually if such a reference was made in the "theater of operation" it would be media worthy at least for a little while, a couple days in the media for sure at least... the less negative media the better IMO..., but then again that depends on if you want to do what is correct or pander to the masses.

In this case I think what is correct (and also panders to the masses) is to not to refer to/ imply Wynne as/is a nag old or otherwise, IMO it isn't the best choice of words as there are more accurate descriptions at hand.

Incompetent, is one that comes to mind.


----------



## groovetube

Well true, if a public figure did it.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Actually if such a reference was made in the "theater of operation" it would be media worthy at least for a little while, a couple days in the media for sure at least... the less negative media the better IMO..., but then again that depends on if you want to do what is correct or pander to the masses.
> 
> In this case I think what is correct (and also panders to the masses) is to not to refer to/ imply Wynne as/is a nag old or otherwise, IMO it isn't the best choice of words as there are more accurate descriptions at hand.
> 
> Incompetent, is one that comes to mind.


I would never refer to her as an "old nag." That would be insulting. She's a tired horse in a three horse race--and the other two horses are running backwards.


----------



## eMacMan

Flaherty's FATCA fiasco clearly summed up:
Canada Capitulates on FATCA Agreement | BC Business



> * In signing an agreement spelling out the details of how Canada will comply with a U.S. tax law targeting Americans living in Canada, our country surrendered its sovereignty*
> 
> Succumbing to pressure from the U.S., the Harper government announced on February 5 that it has signed an agreement with the States that will apply American tax law in Canada and expose an estimated one million Canadians with U.S. connections to the long arm of the Internal Revenue Service.
> 
> The agreement commits Canada’s banks, credit unions and other financial organizations to comply with the 2010 U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) by identifying—at their own expense—any account holders who are either U.S. citizens, or “U.S. persons” (people who hold a green card), and send account details, via Canada Revenue Agency, to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service.
> 
> Under negotiation for two years, this new tax-information-sharing agreement (it still needs parliamentary approval) represents a colossal surrender of financial sovereignty for Canada, along with a potentially significant outflow of Canadian money directly to the U.S. Treasury.
> 
> For the U.S., it’s arguably the most successful assault on Canada since the War of 1812. A close rival for that claim might be the 2006 softwood lumber capitulation (also orchestrated by the Harper government), but this tax-sharing agreement negatively affects far more Canadians and for much longer.
> 
> How can the U.S. enforce this extra-territorial law? Very simple: any foreign bank that refuses to comply would have an automatic 30-per-cent IRS withholding tax applied to every U.S.-dollar transaction that goes through the bank. That likely violates NAFTA (for Mexico and Canada) and the WTO (for the rest of the world) but no one seems to have sufficient backbone to call the U.S. bluff on it.
> 
> ...................


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Flaherty's FATCA fiasco clearly summed up:
> Canada Capitulates on FATCA Agreement | BC Business


Well not everyone is against 'bending over' for the US, so we'll likely hear about how this is oh I donno no big deal, or perhaps you don't understand something, blah blah.


----------



## groovetube

Leaked Tory file shows 2015 strategy to promote PM's wife, undermine Trudeau - The Globe and Mail

oh gawd. So let's get this straight. They want to undermine Trudeau, but Stephen Harper is 'not up to the job' so they want to exploit his wife for the task? :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

*How Much Will Tory Prison Sentence Reforms Cost? The Jury Is Still Out*

_Justice Minister Peter MacKay is forging ahead with plans to jail some prisoners for life *despite the government’s acknowledgment that it has identified no need for such legislation*, nor has it studied the possible impact of the decision.

In the Speech from the Throne last fall, the Conservative government pledged to “change the law so that a life sentence means a sentence for life.”

MacKay said the new changes would affect heinous criminals who commit multiple murders and sexual assaults against children, such as Paul Bernardo. At present, the serial killer and rapist is designated a dangerous offender and will most likely die in prison. The dangerous-offender designation allows the court to incarcerate criminals indefinitely, regardless of their original sentence.

*Federal Correctional Investigator Howard Sapers told The Huffington Post Canada that he is not sure what the government is trying to do.*

“In Canada, a life sentence already means a life sentence," he said.

“When a person is sent to prison under a life sentence, the only thing that gets them out of prison is an eligibility to apply for parole. Not everybody gets out.”

So why change the law? That’s what Liberal MP Wayne Easter wondered. He asked the federal government 44 questions covering topics such as:


Are there perceived problems with the dangerous-offender designation?
What is the recidivism rate among long-term offenders released on parole?
And what are the financial costs of incarcerating convicts longer?

*The Department of Justice responded *that it “has not conducted such studies,” “does not conduct such studies,” “has no knowledge that such studies exist” and “is not in possession” of any information to answer Easter’s questions._

(HuffPo)


----------



## groovetube

thars conservative reformers in dem thar hills to appease!!


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *Federal Correctional Investigator Howard Sapers told The Huffington Post Canada that he is not sure what the government is trying to do.*
> 
> “In Canada, a life sentence already means a life sentence," he said.
> 
> “When a person is sent to prison under a life sentence, the only thing that gets them out of prison is an eligibility to apply for parole. Not everybody gets out.”


Mr. Sapers is full of chit.

You can read, in almost any given year, about parole being granted to people with so-called 'life sentences', now free to walk among us after serving 25 years.


----------



## Stink

.


----------



## Dr.G.

I was listening to Dr. Jack Mintz from the Univ. of Calgary being interviewed on the Business News Network. He said that Canada is in trouble when the three main "have provinces", AB, SK and NL, have to support the two major "have not provinces" of Ontario and Quebec, especially since the three have provinces are dependent upon resource income.

Still, it is the view of the government here in NL that we were a have not province for so long it is out duty to help with transfer payments to other provinces in need, regardless of who they are.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Still, it is the view of the government here in NL that we were a have not province for so long it is out duty to help with transfer payments to other provinces in need, regardless of who they are.


Ontario could get out of this fix simply by voting PC. NL&L shouldn't have to send us eggs while we are willfully eating the chickens.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> *Ontario could get out of this fix simply by voting PC*. NL&L shouldn't have to send us eggs while we are willfully eating the chickens.


:lmao:

Master Hudak, Ontario's saviour?

good luck with that.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Master Hudak, Ontario's saviour?


isn't it obvious? nothing will solve our economic woes faster than cheaper beer.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Ontario could get out of this fix simply by voting PC. NL&L shouldn't have to send us eggs while we are willfully eating the chickens.


Macfury, I have to admit that I don't know much about ON's provincial politics.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> isn't it obvious? nothing will solve our economic woes faster than cheaper beer.


damn that wile Hudak, he knows how to fix Ontario! Gettem drinkin' more!


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> isn't it obvious? nothing will solve our economic woes faster than cheaper beer.


Despite the facetious nature of your post Quebec has much cheaper beer than Ontario for sale in independent depaneurs and grocery stores. It has been that way for decades.

That is why people from Ontario have been flooding over the Quebec/Ontario border to buy their beer for decades.

I have lived in Quebec for over 40 years (on and off) and buying beer has always been more expensive and less convenient in Ontario than in Quebec.

That is a fact. One, that the paid for by "The Beer Store", "study" neglected to mention.

Here in Quebec (surprisingly) when it comes to beer sales there is this thing called competition/choice that, wow, who would have guessed it, is good for the consumer.

Too bad for Ontario that they still have a government that supports private monopolies.

Things like this (as well as others, in spite of the politics) make me glad to be living in Quebec, even though I could easily live on either side of the Ontario/Quebec border.


----------



## SINC

Ditto for Alberta! I can still buy no-name domestic beer for under $1 a bottle. And brand names like Coors or Labatts or Kokanee or Canadian for about $1.30/bottle.


----------



## groovetube

Maybe that's why Quebec has been broke for some time, and had higher taxes. I recall working in a shop many years ago on slater street, many were from across the bridge but wanted to get to the Ontario side to avoid the higher taxes. And that was with an Ndp government in Ontario to boot!


----------



## i-rui

hey, who doesn't want cheap beer?

my point was that as a populist token to the lowest common denominator it's just too easy and transparent. it isn't an actual substantial policy that will make any difference, but during the last election that was pretty much the extent of Hudak's ideas. probably also the reason he couldn't knock off an extremely vulnerable Liberal party....


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Ditto for Alberta! I can still buy no-name domestic beer for under $1 a bottle. And brand names like Coors or Labatts or Kokanee or Canadian for about $1.30/bottle.


It's about 1.45 a bottle here. Not a huge difference.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> hey, who doesn't want cheap beer?
> 
> my point was that as a populist token to the lowest common denominator it's just too easy and transparent. it isn't an actual substantial policy that will make any difference, but during the last election that was pretty much the extent of Hudak's ideas. probably also the reason he couldn't knock off an extremely vulnerable Liberal party....


Exactly. But there's a segment of the population that wel, that's what's important to them. Saving 15 cents off a bottle beer. 

And in Toronto, well. 60 bucks a year on vehicle registration tax.

Hudak is a total dud. He will fix nothing. I'm will to see how wynne would do as premier, mcguinty is gone. If a term shows nothing, perhaps the Tories, will have smartened up and choose a better leader and isn't some Harris wanna-be.


----------



## Sonal

The Beer Store monopoly is stupid and prices for alcohol in Ontario are ridiculous... the LCBO even tells its wholesalers to raise prices. If people make their votes dependent on that issue, that's their business, but it would still be a good thing for any party to make the whole alcohol control thing less restrictive and idiotic. 

As for Tim Hudak, he lost an election against Dalton McGuinty... a dead cat should have been able to beat Dalton McGuinty, and instead the best Tim Hudak could do was leave him one riding short of a majority. Given the amount of trouble the Liberal party has had, he still can't seems to increase his popularity any... kind of bizarre. I actually think there would be a good chance that Ontario would go Conservative, except that their leader is a dud.

As for Andrea Horwath, she's likeable but seems very weak. Given that Hudak refused to deal with the Liberal government at all, Horwath was in a fantastic position to wring concessions out of the Liberal party. She instead spent a great deal of time being indecisive and didn't get that much out of them. 

That leaves the Liberals. Kathleen Wynne came in under the worst possible circumstances. Given that, she seems to be holding her own... not an easy feat. It's going to be a very tough fight, but I think her chances of hanging on to the Premiership are pretty good.


----------



## groovetube

Pretty good assessment of things.


----------



## zen.state

People worried about beer prices in a political thread... you simply can't be more Canadian than that. haha


----------



## groovetube

only in Canada, would someone vote for a political party, just to get their beer a little cheaper.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> hey, who doesn't want cheap beer?
> 
> my point was that as a populist token to the lowest common denominator it's just too easy and transparent. it isn't an actual substantial policy that will make any difference, but during the last election that was pretty much the extent of Hudak's ideas. probably also the reason he couldn't knock off an extremely vulnerable Liberal party....





groovetube said:


> only in Canada, would someone vote for a political party, just to get their beer a little cheaper.


I suggest the issue is bigger than just cheaper prices it is about ending a private monopoly and allowing fair competition. That is the real issue.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> I suggest the issue is bigger than just cheaper prices it is about ending a private monopoly and allowing fair competition. That is the real issue.


It may be the real issue, but my general sense is many of the people looking at that particular issue are thinking "Hey, cheap beer!"


----------



## groovetube

Bingo.

I'm sure even the conservatives know this, but hey it's such an important issue in provincial politics!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It may be the real issue, but my general sense is many of the people looking at that particular issue are thinking "Hey, cheap beer!"


Sounds like it would have broad support then.


----------



## groovetube

The cheap beer party of Ontario!
Ha ha it's come down to this...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> The cheap beer party of Ontario!
> Ha ha it's come down to this...


I would vote for the cheap beer party over the big wind party any day. (Horvath's "no party for anyone" party doesn't even merit consideration.)


----------



## zen.state

I'll start the luncheon party, which would never actually try to get elected. Just host luncheons. 

That would solve the nations issues right?


----------



## groovetube

Apparently, we've been had. It's been cheap beer all along!

Who knew?


----------



## zen.state

What about people who don't drink, like me. What do we get cheaper? McDonalds?


----------



## BigDL

zen.state said:


> What about people who don't drink, like me. What do we get cheaper? McDonalds?


Perhaps you may enjoy not brewing the much cheaper no taxed home brew.

Even without the tax saving not home brewing beer will save you money.


----------



## groovetube

well you can always pop out a few children, and -make sure- one of you has a really high income, and then, and THEN! you will benefit from the planned income splitting planned by the Harper conservatives.

Apparently, Flaherty is hedging on whether this is a good idea, and likely for good read. This (older, don't freak out now...) article explains why it's a stupid idea really.

What’s wrong with income-splitting? Nothing — if you’re wealthy | iPolitics


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> It may be the real issue, but my general sense is many of the people looking at that particular issue are thinking "Hey, cheap beer!"


Could be, I can't speak for others motivations. I just know that for a government to be maintaining a private monopoly is just wrong in this day and age.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Could be, I can't speak for others motivations. I just know that for a government to be maintaining a private monopoly is just wrong in this day and age.


To hell with the beer prices, it IS the monopoly that is wrong and those who aren't getting that message from the thread are, well, you know.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I'm sure even the conservatives know this, but hey it's such an important issue in provincial politics!





groovetube said:


> The cheap beer party of Ontario!
> Ha ha it's come down to this...





groovetube said:


> Apparently, we've been had. It's been cheap beer all along!
> 
> Who knew?


Oh groove it *is* a policy issue, that it is populist should not be something of derision but something for consideration, especially when the existing policy supports a private monopoly.

Quebec, which has been historically the most leftist, of all provinces realized that decades ago...

Your opposition to the policy or at least your facetious labeling is more reflective of your political proclivities than it is of any real criticism of policy.


----------



## screature

zen.state said:


> What about people who don't drink, like me. What do we get cheaper? McDonalds?


So you approve of private monopolies then? 

Maybe you should move to Ontario where your vote would matter.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Oh groove it *is* a policy issue, that it is populist should not be something of derision but something for consideration, especially when the existing policy supports a private monopoly.
> 
> Quebec, which has been historically the most leftist, of all provinces realized that decades ago...
> 
> Your opposition to the policy or at least your facetious labeling is more reflective of your political proclivities than it is of any real criticism of policy.


When people support the LCBO monopoly on the grounds that it is "making money for the province" I suggest that the province should also take over all car and coffee sales, then triple the price. That would make even more money for the province in a similarly punitive fashion.


----------



## groovetube

Nothing like a little exaggeration to make a soapbox bigger!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Nothing like a little exaggeration to make a soapbox bigger!


These comments aren't exaggerated?



groovetube said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I'm sure even the conservatives know this, but hey it's such an important issue in provincial politics!





groovetube said:


> The cheap beer party of Ontario!
> Ha ha it's come down to this...





groovetube said:


> Apparently, we've been had. It's been cheap beer all along!
> 
> Who knew?


It seems to me that comment is a little bit along the lines of "do as I say not as I do" when it comes to posts your most recent posts here and MF's post that you commented on.

That is just how it comes across to me.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> well you can always pop out a few children, and -make sure- one of you has a really high income, and then, and THEN! you will benefit from the planned income splitting planned by the Harper conservatives.
> 
> Apparently, Flaherty is hedging on whether this is a good idea, and likely for good read. This (older, don't freak out now...) article explains why it's a stupid idea really.
> 
> What’s wrong with income-splitting? Nothing â€” if you’re wealthy | iPolitics


Well there you go folks the Conservatives will offer PIE IN the SKY BY AND BYE.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Well there you go folks the Conservatives will offer PIE IN the SKY BY AND BYE.


Great link, very informative:


----------



## i-rui

strictly speaking the LCBO isn't a "monopoly". There's the Beer Store, and there are also online wine retailers... which are private enterprises.

Personally i would have ZERO problem with the Ontario government squashing The Beer Store. The Brewers make plenty money already, and i rather have the benefit of those sales going to the province.

Regarding government monopolies - in some cases it's fine. Comparing the LCBO to coffee and car sales is a bit hyperbolic IMO. When it comes to stuff like Booze, Gambling and eventually Pot, then I'm for it. These endeavours do have negative factors that have to be regulated and I rather have the government oversee it while also gathering the profits from them.

A far more healthy solution then letting the private sector make the call on where profit & responsibility should cross.

plus the idea of destroying these revenue tools simply because of some ideological mantra of "no government monopolies" seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


----------



## Dr.G.

Tory senators expense business-class flights with spouses - Politics - CBC News

If we want quality Senators, we need to treat them with quality ................ or at least let them treat themselves with quality perks.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> These comments aren't exaggerated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that comment is a little bit along the lines of "do as I say not as I do" when it comes to posts your most recent posts here and MF's post that you commented on.
> 
> That is just how it comes across to me.


it's sarcasm. With so many other more important issues facing Ontario voters, making this into a big election plank is just pure shiny ball politic. Which is about all Hudak seems capable of I guess.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> strictly speaking the LCBO isn't a "monopoly". There's the Beer Store, and there are also online wine retailers... which are private enterprises.


It's a monopoly on spirits--one which provides me with poor selection at high prices.



i-rui said:


> Personally i would have ZERO problem with the Ontario government squashing The Beer Store. The Brewers make plenty money already, and i rather have the benefit of those sales going to the province.


This is what pisses me off about such arguments. The LCBO already sells beer, but you want it to have monopoly power on beer as well--not because you think the price is too high, but because someone else is making a profit.



i-rui said:


> Regarding government monopolies - in some cases it's fine. Comparing the LCBO to coffee and car sales is a bit hyperbolic IMO. When it comes to stuff like Booze, Gambling and eventually Pot, then I'm for it. These endeavours do have negative factors that have to be regulated and I rather have the government oversee it while also gathering the profits from them.


The only profits the LCBO reaps from these endeavours is the high surcharges on each product. If you like the LCBO "making money for the province" request another price hike. Cars? They can cause accidents and pollution. Better let the government sell cars and make money for the province.

Pot? The Ontario government could never bring itself to become an official agent for a product that is delivered through smoke. There is zero chance that the government could fight e-cigarettes while adding marijuana to its own offerings.



i-rui said:


> plus the idea of destroying these revenue tools simply because of some ideological mantra of "no government monopolies" seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Why would it spite anyone's face? The "dividend" is an illusion based on a monopoly that hides its gross inefficiency behind high prices. In both BC and Alberta, net revenue per litre to government is significantly higher than in Ontario. I can routinely buy European imports in New York State for less than half of what I pay in Canada. Even with an additional "booze tax" Ontario consumers would get better prices while the government would collect additional revenues at no cost to itself.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Tory senators expense business-class flights with spouses - Politics - CBC News
> 
> If we want quality Senators, we need to treat them with quality ................ or at least let them treat themselves with quality perks.


Family Day is almost upon us!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Family Day is almost upon us!


Well, I guess that this justifies their expenses. Still, the expenses of just one of those senators is four months salary for me.


----------



## zen.state

screature said:


> So you approve of private monopolies then?
> 
> Maybe you should move to Ontario where your vote would matter.


I was joking you dolt.

It's okay though, I don't expect much sense or language comprehension from someone who works in parliament.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's a monopoly on spirits--one which provides me with poor selection at high prices.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what pisses me off about such arguments. The LCBO already sells beer, but you want it to have monopoly power on beer as well--not because you think the price is too high, but because someone else is making a profit.
> 
> 
> 
> The only profits the LCBO reaps from these endeavours is the high surcharges on each product. If you like the LCBO "making money for the province" request another price hike. Cars? They can cause accidents and pollution. Better let the government sell cars and make money for the province.
> 
> Pot? The Ontario government could never bring itself to become an official agent for a product that is delivered through smoke. There is zero chance that the government could fight e-cigarettes while adding marijuana to its own offerings.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it spite anyone's face? The "dividend" is an illusion based on a monopoly that hides its gross inefficiency behind high prices. In both BC and Alberta, net revenue per litre to government is significantly higher than in Ontario. I can routinely buy European imports in New York State for less than half of what I pay in Canada. Even with an additional "booze tax" Ontario consumers would get better prices while the government would collect additional revenues at no cost to itself.


First, I think i-rui stated he has no problem having competition in the beer market.

Second, comparing the price of wine in new york state versus ontario, or anywhere in canada for that matter is useless.

Is wine that much cheaper in quebec than ontario? That would be a better comparison. From my limited experience, I didn't see much of a difference resulting in a conclusion that wine was so much cheaper in quebec because it's sold in stores.

Another interesting thing, apparently some study was done showing that beer was much more expensive, than in quebec. I found this to be odd given, what I've seen, I thought ontario was marginally more expensive, and I found this:
http://www.earnscliffe.ca/insights/wp-content/uploads/Comparing-Beer-Prices-Final.pdf

Interesting.


----------



## CubaMark

zen.state said:


> I was joking you dolt.
> 
> It's okay though, I don't expect much sense or language comprehension from someone who works in parliament.



...aaaand the level of discourse just took a tumble.... Lovely.


----------



## screature

zen.state said:


> I was joking you dolt.
> 
> It's okay though, I don't expect much sense or language comprehension from someone who works in parliament.


Maybe you should drink it might make you more relaxed and less caustic.


----------



## zen.state

screature said:


> Maybe you should drink it might make you more relaxed and less caustic.


You must not drink yourself then.

I would rather be called a dolt than a loser, as you once called me.

Like every other conservative, you preach what suits you and not what you practice. The amount of shame and self awareness you lack is stunning. Work on that...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> First, I think i-rui stated he has no problem having competition in the beer market.
> 
> Second, comparing the price of wine in new york state versus ontario, or anywhere in canada for that matter is useless.
> 
> *Is wine that much cheaper in quebec than ontario? That would be a better comparison. From my limited experience, I didn't see much of a difference resulting in a conclusion that wine was so much cheaper in quebec because it's sold in stores.*
> 
> Another interesting thing, apparently some study was done showing that beer was much more expensive, than in quebec. I found this to be odd given, what I've seen, I thought ontario was marginally more expensive, and I found this:
> http://www.earnscliffe.ca/insights/wp-content/uploads/Comparing-Beer-Prices-Final.pdf
> 
> Interesting.


Actually in many cases wines at the SAQ are more expensive than they are at the LCBO. Part of this is the buying power of the LCBO. It is the single biggest purchaser of wine in the world (because of their monopoly position) thus they can get better pricing when they buy.

When it comes to depaneur and grocery store wine in Quebec you can get some pretty cheap wine but you do get what you pay for, so not much.

For those who aren't familiar with the situation in Quebec, depaneur and grocery stores cannot sell wine that is sold at an SAQ, that is why they can only get 2nd tier wine. 

Except in exceptional circumstances which is very interesting.

In depaneurs and grocery stores in more remote or less populated parts of Quebec they can have SAQ "kiosks" within the store where they sell SAQ wines and even spirits. It seems to be a licensing arrangement that they make with the SAQ which benefits them both. A very interesting model and one that I think Ontario would do well to consider as well.


----------



## screature

zen.state said:


> You must not drink yourself then.
> 
> I would rather be called a dolt than *a loser, as you once called me.*
> 
> Like every other conservative, you preach what suits you and not what you practice. The amount of shame and self awareness you lack is stunning. Work on that...


Yep I did and you deserved it.

Stemming from an engagement in this post and you continually referring be me as being delusional. You were caustic from the beginning and continue to be so... 



> zen.state said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only things that really bother me here are all the American-minded conservative Albertans who frequent this board, and their need to control others and what they post. That and rampant ignorance and lack of self awareness.
> 
> People who live in Alberta should be banned from here, because they're not really Canadians. They're 2nd tier Americans.
Click to expand...


----------



## zen.state

But you are delusional, so what is the issue? It's the truth.

You will never understand that you are though, because delusional people don't know they're delusional, because they're delusional. You should go live with your own kind so you can find more happiness. Either Alberta or the US, same place really.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> First, I think i-rui stated he has no problem having competition in the beer market.


He said he wanted to see the Beer Stores taken over by the province.



groovetube said:


> Second, comparing the price of wine in new york state versus ontario, or anywhere in canada for that matter is useless.
> 
> Is wine that much cheaper in quebec than ontario? That would be a better comparison. From my limited experience, I didn't see much of a difference resulting in a conclusion that wine was so much cheaper in quebec because it's sold in stores.


Comparing Quebec wine prices to Ontario is useless. In addition to screature's points, Quebec has higher sales taxes on its wine and exempts its own products from taxes, for example. Apples to oranges.



groovetube said:


> Another interesting thing, apparently some study was done showing that beer was much more expensive, than in quebec. I found this to be odd given, what I've seen, I thought ontario was marginally more expensive, and I found this:
> http://www.earnscliffe.ca/insights/wp-content/uploads/Comparing-Beer-Prices-Final.pdf


Quebec grocery stores often offer sale prices that make beer cheaper. However, under the current system Ontario beer prices are controlled by the government, which sets a floor price per bottle. If this were lifted, then prices would fall.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Actually in many cases wines at the SAQ are more expensive than they are at the LCBO. Part of this is the buying power of the LCBO. It is the single biggest purchaser of wine in the world (because of their monopoly position) thus they can get better pricing when they buy.
> 
> When it comes to depaneur and grocery store wine in Quebec you can get some pretty cheap wine but you do get what you pay for, so not much.
> 
> For those who aren't familiar with the situation in Quebec, depaneur and grocery stores cannot sell wine that is sold at an SAQ, that is why they can only get 2nd tier wine.
> 
> Except in exceptional circumstances which is very interesting.
> 
> In depaneurs and grocery stores in more remote or less populated parts of Quebec they can have SAQ "kiosks" within the store where they sell SAQ wines and even spirits. It seems to be a licensing arrangement that they make with the SAQ which benefits them both. A very interesting model and one that I think Ontario would do well to consider as well.


That was my experience from all the times travelling through quebec, I sort of learned quickly not to bother getting wine at the stores. Bleh. I made the mistake of getting a 5 dollar wine once pretty early on, it wasn't unlike drinking watered down vinegar. But it was cheap boy!! 

I figured as much, as macfury decided he would start comparing US wine prices in a topic on alcohol prices between provinces who have government run, and ones that don't.

Back to the larger picture, the differences are pretty damn small, and while I can appreciate some people are for whatever reason angered by the ontario lobo thing etc., it isn't exactly priority stuff given the state of things in Ontario, and the things people should be talking about.

It's just interesting that conservatives here, for some reason, decide to hold on tight to something like this.

Squirrel!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> It's a monopoly on spirits--one which provides me with poor selection at high prices.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what pisses me off about such arguments. The LCBO already sells beer, but you want it to have monopoly power on beer as well--not because you think the price is too high, but because someone else is making a profit.
> 
> 
> 
> The only profits the LCBO reaps from these endeavours is the high surcharges on each product. If you like the LCBO "making money for the province" request another price hike. Cars? They can cause accidents and pollution. Better let the government sell cars and make money for the province.
> 
> Pot? The Ontario government could never bring itself to become an official agent for a product that is delivered through smoke. There is zero chance that the government could fight e-cigarettes while adding marijuana to its own offerings.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it spite anyone's face? The "dividend" is an illusion based on a monopoly that hides its gross inefficiency behind high prices. In both BC and Alberta, net revenue per litre to government is significantly higher than in Ontario. I can routinely buy European imports in New York State for less than half of what I pay in Canada. Even with an additional "booze tax" Ontario consumers would get better prices while the government would collect additional revenues at no cost to itself.


i read a few articles on this. some pro (including a laughable "study" from the Frasier Institute), some against. the best one I came across was probably this one :

Should Ontario privatize liquor sales? - Business - Macleans.ca

the crux of it being, it isn't a black and white solution. Of special note is one of the comments from the CFO of the LCBO (a biased opinion, but certainly an informed one) :



> In response to Tamsin McMahon’s article on the benefits of privatizing the LCBO, there is an important point that should be drawn in regards to the per capita comparisons made between Alberta and Ontario. The question of per capita government revenue from alcohol sales in different Canadian markets (in this particular case comparing Alberta and Ontario) isn’t new. However, any reasonable comparison must include provincial revenues from the 1,000-plus private beer and wine retail outlets in Ontario. When all direct sources of provincial revenue from the retail sale of alcohol are considered, Ontario’s legal drinking age per capita revenue is actually significantly higher than Alberta’s.
> 
> Government revenues from the two provinces’ retail systems since 1993 (when Alberta privatized) show an increase of 83% in Ontario (from $1.45 billion to $2.66 billion) and 68% in Alberta (from $408 million to $684 million). Over this time period, Ontario taxpayers have received from alcohol retailers $37 billion, to help pay for health care, education and other government priorities.


so I disagree with your claim that "In both BC and Alberta, net revenue per litre to government is significantly higher than in Ontario". Also when you factor in the good union LCBO jobs gives to the province, and the increased purchasing power of those employees vs their privatized counterparts in the west I see it as a net benefit to the province.


----------



## i-rui

P.S. i agree that the province should end their silly fight against e-cigarettes. Simply tax the hell out of it, regulate it thoroughly, and let people make their choice.

The same with pot.


----------



## groovetube

yep.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Of special note is one of the comments from the CFO of the LCBO (a biased opinion, but certainly an informed one) :


I quoted per litre, not per capita. Per capita figures provide no solid comparison of profits on sales. They are dependent on how people drink or whether they do at all.




i-rui said:


> Also when you factor in the good union LCBO jobs gives to the province, and the increased purchasing power of those employees vs their privatized counterparts in the west I see it as a net benefit to the province.


I don't care about the "good union jobs" as they benefit nobody but uneducated stockboys and girls who can live the life of Riley for pushing bottles on carts,


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> P.S. i agree that the province should end their silly fight against e-cigarettes. Simply tax the hell out of it, regulate it thoroughly, and let people make their choice.
> 
> The same with pot.


Even if it became less illegal, the government can't--and won't--sell pot _a la _LCBO outside of medical use because it would never pass any tests as a new product. Cigarettes have been grandfathered as a product in which smoke is inhaled. The nicotine is actually not too bad for you--it's the delivery mechanism that's the killer. Alas, marijuana uses the same delivery mechanism regardless of which chemicals users crave.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I quoted per litre, not per capita. Per capita figures provide no solid comparison of profits on sales. They are dependent on how people drink or whether they do at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care about the "good union jobs" as they benefit nobody but uneducated stockboys and girls who can live the life of Riley for pushing bottles on carts,


How does quoting per liter make your case better?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> How does quoting per liter make your case better?


Because it doesn't matter how many people are consuming the product--it matters how much they are consuming. Apple doesn't brag that it serves X number of customers--it brags on total sales.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Because it doesn't matter how many people are consuming the product--it matters how much they are consuming. Apple doesn't brag that it serves X number of customers--it brags on total sales.


you're the one that stated that net revenue per litre in BC/Alberta was 'significantly' higher than ontario, are we to just accept this without anything to quality it? I'd be interested in knowing how you came up with the conclusion that Ontario would see higher revenue based on privatizing as the other provinces have done.

And another issue, one I'm a little surprised that those who were so concerned about when it came to legalizing pot, was the issue of making alcohol even more accessible in private stores and it's possible correlation to drinking and driving.

Seems Ontario has the lowest per capita, Impaired driving in Canada, 2011

How is the change going to affect i? Since many are convinced the mere act of legalizing will most certainly result in more 'pot driving' deaths (even it's still illegal to drive high) it stands to reason this would be of definite concern.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I quoted per litre, not per capita. Per capita figures provide no solid comparison of profits on sales. They are dependent on how people drink or whether they do at all.


Can you post the link to the Data? I'd be interested in seeing it and how it breaks down. I'm very skeptical that they actually make more revenue if all sales are actually included.



Macfury said:


> I don't care about the "good union jobs" as they benefit nobody but uneducated stockboys and girls who can live the life of Riley for pushing bottles on carts,


Increased purchasing power does benefit the economy. If after paying their employees the LCBO still takes in more revenue then that is a significant benefit to the province. Union bogeyman aside.


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Actually in many cases wines at the SAQ are more expensive than they are at the LCBO. Part of this is the buying power of the LCBO. It is the single biggest purchaser of wine in the world (because of their monopoly position) thus they can get better pricing when they buy.


And yet, they've actually told their wholesalers to raise their prices. 
Cohn: LCBO's pricing policy doesn't add up | Toronto Star



screature said:


> In depaneurs and grocery stores in more remote or less populated parts of Quebec they can have SAQ "kiosks" within the store where they sell SAQ wines and even spirits. It seems to be a licensing arrangement that they make with the SAQ which benefits them both. A very interesting model and one that I think Ontario would do well to consider as well.


Sounds like a perfectly good and reasonable model to me (we do have the occasional wine-store kiosk in grocery stores) and certainly makes more sense than building those expensive big-box style LCBO stores. 

I'd also add in, make it easier for local vintners, craft brewers and distillers to actually sell through LCBO channels. If it's the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, why make it so hard on Ontario businesses?


----------



## groovetube

that I'd agree with, a good friend co-founded a good craft brewery and would agree with that as well


----------



## eMacMan

Had lunch with some friends at the local Legion. Was quite surprised to see how completely the vets/seniors have turned against Harper. Of the dozen or so people there, not a single one can now be called a Con supporter.

Let's be brutal Seniors and Vets are the very heart of the Harper base and not a single supporter amongst his core.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> *And yet, they've actually told their wholesalers to raise their prices. *
> Cohn: LCBO's pricing policy doesn't add up | Toronto Star
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a perfectly good and reasonable model to me (we do have the occasional wine-store kiosk in grocery stores) and certainly makes more sense than building those expensive big-box style LCBO stores.
> 
> I'd also add in, make it easier for local vintners, craft brewers and distillers to actually sell through LCBO channels. If it's the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, why make it so hard on Ontario businesses?


Yes I know. A lot of folks aren't too happy about that needless to say.


----------



## screature

zen.state said:


> But you are delusional, so what is the issue? It's the truth.
> 
> You will never understand that you are though, because delusional people don't know they're delusional, because they're delusional. You should go live with your own kind so you can find more happiness. Either Alberta or the US, same place really.


:lmao: I stand by my assessment of you as well. Go back to Nazi Germany or whatever hole in the ground you crawled out from and leave the rest of us to live our lives in peace.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> And yet, they've actually told their wholesalers to raise their prices.
> Cohn: LCBO's pricing policy doesn't add up | Toronto Star
> 
> *Sounds like a perfectly good and reasonable model to me* (we do have the occasional wine-store kiosk in grocery stores) *and certainly makes more sense than building those expensive big-box style LCBO stores.
> 
> I'd also add in, make it easier for local vintners, craft brewers and distillers to actually sell through LCBO channels. If it's the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, why make it so hard on Ontario businesses?*


Yep I agree.


----------



## zen.state

screature said:


> :lmao: I stand by my assessment of you as well. Go back to Nazi Germany or whatever hole in the ground you crawled out from and leave the rest of us to live our lives in peace.


Why are you so eager to show what a senseless and melodramatic piece of trash you are?

Calling me a Nazi? That is truly being a senseless ape. Have some shame for goodness sake. The nationalist has hurt the feelings of the neocon to a point that they have to call someone a Nazi, as any true neocon would. Can't you be more intelligent than that? Apparently not.


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper’s new 24 Seven video series losing about half its audience every week | canada.com

Stephen Harper tv, a real flop apparently.

Plan B!


----------



## zen.state

groovetube said:


> Stephen Harper’s new 24 Seven video series losing about half its audience every week | canada.com
> 
> Stephen Harper tv, a real flop apparently.
> 
> Plan B!


I'm sure Harper will try to appeal to the lower income citizens next, the people he helps the least, if at all.

IMO Harper should have been arrested years ago for treason. He commits treason on an almost a daily basis.


----------



## Macfury

zen.state said:


> He commits treason on an almost a daily basis.


Go for it. What constitutes treason in Canada and in which cases has he committed treason?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Go for it. What constitutes treason in Canada and in which cases has he committed treason?


The FATCA IGA for a start. Betraying Canadian and Canadians interests to support bankers and the IRS! Two years secret negotiations, and the only ones consulted were the big 5 Canadian banks and banker ass-ociation. 

How many of the estimated 3 million Canadians who will be fiscally assaulted were consulted? Zero!

What consideration was given to the folly of letting the IRS re-write Canadian law at the expense of Canada's Charter of rights? None!

Since the Harper Government places loyalty to the US above their duties and loyalty to Canada and Canadians, give them US citizenship retroactive to 2011 and let them learn first hand the price some Canadians will pay for the Harper Governments betrayal.


----------



## Macfury

Section 46 of the Criminal Code of Canada:

*High treason*
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

* Treason*
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada to do any of the above outside Canada.


----------



## groovetube

seems Harper's actions don't quite meet the criteria to be called treason.

We'll have to just settle for, 'selling Canada out'.


----------



## zen.state

Macfury said:


> Go for it. What constitutes treason in Canada and in which cases has he committed treason?


Sure thing:

1. Giving the US military the power to cross our border in an "emergency".

2. Giving certain US border officials the right to cross our border at will.

3. Allowing American police to enter Canada under "Canadian guidance" to arrest Canadian citizens who have so called broken US law.

4. Pretty much granting every wish the US has, as if he was elected by them and represents American interests. 

5. Allowing NSA staff to work for CSEC and spy on Canadians.

Those are all just off the top of my head. There are many more I could think of that are older events.

People can think whatever delusions they want, but Harper never has, and never will, have his own citizens interests at heart. He was elected to serve the people of Canada and our nations best interests, and he never does. Period.


----------



## Macfury

So essentially, nothing Stephen Harper has done meets Canada's own definition of treason. For someone who loves Canada's traditions so much, you're borrowing your definition of treason from some other country.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> So essentially, nothing Stephen Harper has done meets Canada's own definition of treason. For someone who loves Canada's traditions so much, you're borrowing your definition of treason from some other country.


Mighty thin ice there. He has certainly betrayed Canada and Canadians, if you choose to dance around calling it treason that's fine. I still maintain since he clearly has on numerous occasions acted in the best interests of the Untied States (at the expense of Canadians), give him retroactive US citizenship and let him learn first hand what signing that FATCA IGA has done to 3+ Million Canadians.

Better yet deport the lot of them stateside.


----------



## groovetube

yes it is thin ice macfury...



> without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;


eMacMan I don't think though, that financial records constitutes even treason by it's definition.

Some of Harper's other actions however, is treading on some mighty thin ice.


----------



## BigDL

Stephen Harper sees the Conservative Party interests as Canadian Government interests as one and the same. He can not govern for all Canadians. He merely governs for the base.

He can not separate Excited States interest from Canadian interests. Harper see the XL Pipeline as a Canadian sovereignty issue therefore he alone should have the last word on its going ahead. He is frustrated by the reality of the process.

Harper admires much that the Republicans and Tea Party movement have put forward. He wants to believe, Canadians, in the main approve as well but in reality it is just the base that approves of these policies. But then again Canadians in the main and the Base equal the same thing for Harper and his focus.

So Mr. Harper is not a traitor, he is just self centred and goofy.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Stephen Harper sees the Conservative Party interests as Canadian Government interests as one and the same. He can not govern for all Canadians. He merely governs for the base.
> 
> He can not separate Excited States interest from Canadian interests. Harper see the XL Pipeline as a Canadian sovereignty issue therefore he alone should have the last word on its going ahead. He is frustrated by the reality of the process.
> 
> Harper admires much that the Republicans and Tea Party movement have put forward. He wants to believe, Canadians, in the main approve as well but in reality it is just the base that approves of these policies. But then again Canadians in the main and the Base equal the same thing for Harper and his focus.
> 
> So Mr. Harper is not a traitor, he is just self centred and goofy.


The US does not need the Keystone pipeline by a long shot.

I also doubt that Harper admires either the Republicans or the Tea Party--two wildly different entities. Harper gave up his libertarian roots long ago


----------



## Macfury

On this premise, Harper is just one in a long line of traitors—St. Laurent, for involving us in Korea; Trudeau, for bringing in US wage and price controls; Chretien for getting us into Afghanistan...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I also doubt that Harper admires either the Republicans or the Tea Party--two wildly different entities. Harper gave up his libertarian roots long ago


*Ten reasons why Stephen Harper isn't really Canadian*

_I don't think anyone had mentioned publicly *Harper's participation as a university student in Young Republican summer camp south of the border*. (Tom Flanagan escorted a group of his students to the political training ground for Republican campaigners.) 

Coupled with stories shared by one of his grade school classmates, who told me they had had a very persuasive history teacher who preached the notion that Canada would be better off as a state within the United States, I have observed his political sensibilities with a concern that he was drawn to a different system._​
(Rabble.ca)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Ten reasons why Stephen Harper isn't really Canadian*
> 
> _I don't think anyone had mentioned publicly *Harper's participation as a university student in Young Republican summer camp south of the border*. (Tom Flanagan escorted a group of his students to the political training ground for Republican campaigners.)
> 
> Coupled with stories shared by one of his grade school classmates, who told me they had had a very persuasive history teacher who preached the notion that Canada would be better off as a state within the United States, I have observed his political sensibilities with a concern that he was drawn to a different system._​
> (Rabble.ca)



Rather pathetic:



> I admit freely that I have no idea how much these influences have shaped his political thinking.


However, ideas have no borders.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Rather pathetic:
> 
> 
> 
> However, ideas have no borders.


Not so pathetic when you include the rest of the quote however...



> To make the statement I did, I was relying on close observation of his behaviour and actions in showing disrespect for Parliament. Stephen Harper as Prime Minister has been steadily undercutting core principles of the traditions of Westminster Parliamentary democracy.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Not so pathetic when you include the rest of the quote however...


Still pathetic, especially in light of that addition. It's a lot of innuendo and bluster, but there's no meat to the accusations. It boils down to: "I don't like his attitude."

I know it's tough to be a non-player in the politics of the nation, but Elizabeth May should be above this sort of thing.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> yes it is thin ice macfury...
> 
> 
> 
> eMacMan I don't think though, that financial records constitutes even treason by it's definition.
> 
> Some of Harper's other actions however, is treading on some mighty thin ice.


Uh any one who believes Flaherty's assurance that the CRA will not aid the Americans in collecting their tribute, has to be incredibly naive. After all Flaherty was the one who assured us back in December of 2011 that he would stand up to the USA on FATCA. Clearly if the US can pressure the Finance Minister to betray Canadians once they can easily do it again.

Since the penalties could easily be more than the combined wealth of up to 3 million Canadian victims we could be talking on the high side of 100 Billion dollars, earned in Canada, already taxed in Canada, bled from Canadians and handed over to the US without protest. That is indeed betrayal. 

Furthermore since the financial records being meekly turned over cannot currently be obtained by the CRA or RCMP without a court order that too has to be considered a complete and total betrayal.

On top of that even if one can stretch their gullibility far enough to believe the CRA data base will be secure, these records are being turned over to the IRS, NSA, FBI, CIA, DEA...... none of whom can even pretend they will maintain a secure data base.


----------



## zen.state

I certainly don't think much of May or the Green Party. They are simply too far left, to a blind degree at times. Her opinions are always a bit weak, and although she is fundamentally correct in that article, her arguments are far too weak.

By the way, on the treason issue, I believe he did truly commit it when he and Obama decided to do some military integration. There have been joint nation training exercises for about 2-3 years now in both the US and Canada. It was revealed that they share tactics and many other secrets with the US. This combined with giving their forces the right to cross our border in an "emergency" is concerning to say the least.


----------



## Macfury

She may have slugged back too much organic hammock juice the day she wrote it.


----------



## groovetube

Sounds like she shared some with Harper.


----------



## FeXL

zen.state said:


> There have been joint nation training exercises for about 2-3 years now in both the US and Canada.


Canada has been training jointly with the US for a helluva lot longer than that, along with many other NATO countries. As a for instance, ever hear of Maple Flag?

Hardly treason.

But, WTF do I know? I'm just one of those lousy Albertans...


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Canada has been training jointly with the US for a helluva lot longer than that, along with many other NATO countries. As a for instance, ever hear of Maple Flag?
> 
> Hardly treason.
> 
> *But, WTF do I know? I'm just one of those lousy Albertans*...


I work at Parliament so my voice does not count either.

It seems the only opinions that zen(what a joke).state is willing to consider are those that are the same as his.... Kind of reminds of a certain German regime, somewhere in the 1940's or so...


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Still pathetic, especially in light of that addition. It's a lot of innuendo and bluster, but there's no meat to the accusations. It boils down to: "I don't like his attitude."
> 
> I know it's tough to be a non-player in the politics of the nation, but Elizabeth May should be above this sort of thing.


Yes that's your opinion macfury. But I think it's a lot more than just innuendo. I find it hilarious that you enjoy all the innuendo you can when it comes to say a liberal leader chock full of 'well he wouldas', but become fiercely defensive on something a little more substantive on Harper.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Yes that's your opinion macfury. But I think it's a lot more than just innuendo.


That's to be expected, groovetube, I would have put money on it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That's to be expected, groovetube, I would have put money on it.


Are we betting on the outcome of the Olympic hockey medal???????? I choose Canada.


----------



## groovetube

Yes it was macfury. When it comes to Harper, I've seen a whole lot of 'much ado about nothing' and it's all liberal media blah blah. So yeah I wasn't surprised!


----------



## Macfury

GT, you suffer from Harper Derangement Syndrome. You'll be cured when a Liberal is finally elected, then develop a new strain of the illness when another Conservative becomes PM.


----------



## groovetube

That's kind of interesting macfury. When anyone levels any criticism of Harper, you see it as, "Harper derangement syndrome".

The thing is, when any of the party leaders brome PM, and has been in power for some time, as Harper has, there tends to be a lot of criticism, not simply because he's a conservative, because it occurs even with liberals! It's ok, it's not an attack on your personal self, it's just what happens.

You see, here in Canada, people can openly criticize a PM, and do so quite frequently because it's a democracy. It's not because people are deranged as you somehow need to see it, (perhaps there's self help books for this I don't know) but that's just how things go. It may be frightening that people might have opinions that perhaps differs from yours.

It'll be ok.


----------



## Macfury

These are all classic symptoms of Harper Derangement Syndrome. You're so deep inside the syndrome that you can't even see how it's manifested in your post. 

If I cared, I would probably arrange an intervention.



groovetube said:


> That's kind of interesting macfury. When anyone levels any criticism of Harper, you see it as, "Harper derangement syndrome".
> 
> The thing is, when any of the party leaders brome PM, and has been in power for some time, as Harper has, there tends to be a lot of criticism, not simply because he's a conservative, because it occurs even with liberals! It's ok, it's not an attack on your personal self, it's just what happens.
> 
> You see, here in Canada, people can openly criticize a PM, and do so quite frequently because it's a democracy. It's not because people are deranged as you somehow need to see it, (perhaps there's self help books for this I don't know) but that's just how things go. It may be frightening that people might have opinions that perhaps differs from yours.
> 
> It'll be ok.


----------



## groovetube

well, that was predictable.


----------



## groovetube

Anyway, while someone who disagrees with macfury is, er, deranged', this was an interesting read:

How Heenan Blaikie’s stunning collapse started with a rogue African arms deal | National Post

Seems ol' Chretein's in the middle of this.


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness your man Mulcair is clear of that one!


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Are we betting on the outcome of the Olympic hockey medal???????? I choose Canada.


speaking of treason,anyone catch theigioys at CBC news Montheal on monday?reporting Canada's wins as Quebetcers w9nninning 3 medals, not 3Cabadians it goy me quite upset separatists at thecbCBC need to be booted out.


----------



## groovetube

Well I think we get that they're Canadians. 

Calling a Canadian who lives in Quebec a quebecer is about as far from treason as any definition I've seen in this thread yet


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Well I think we get that they're Canadians.
> 
> Calling a Canadian who lives in Quebec a quebecer is about as far from treason as any definition I've seen in this thread yet


yeah,your idol JT would agree with you not so sure P.E.T would.


----------



## screature

kps said:


> speaking of treason,anyone catch theigioys at CBC news Montheal on monday?reporting Canada's wins as Quebetcers w9nninning 3 medals, not 3Cabadians it goy me quite upset separatists at thecbCBC need to be booted out.





groovetube said:


> Well I think we get that they're Canadians.
> 
> Calling a Canadian who lives in Quebec a quebecer is about as far from treason as any definition I've seen in this thread yet





kps said:


> yeah,your idol JT would agree with you not so sure P.E.T would.


I didn't realize there is a team Quebec at the Olympics.

While not treason, it is typical CBC. You sure wouldn't hear them refer to winners from Alberta as being Albertan's and not Canadian's first.


----------



## groovetube

I love how this has boiled down to the treasonous CBC calling someone a quebecer not a Canadian.

Draw and quarter those socialists!

Squirrel!


----------



## SINC

CBC TV continues to show its bias time after time and this is no different. Perfectly normal behaviour for a left wing slanted so-called public media. In truth it is nothing but a left wing think tank with broadcast rights. Thank goodness their radio arm can be and is objective.


----------



## groovetube

Stephen Harper selling out Canada to the US, to rants about the CBC calling someone a quebecer not a Canadian.

Just putting things into perspective here


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Stephen Harper selling out Canada to the US*, to rants about the CBC calling someone a quebecer not a Canadian.
> 
> Just putting things into perspective here


It makes laugh every time I hear this stated by anti-Harper zealots.

Why in god's name would he sell out Canada to the US, China or any other country? What possible motivation would he have for that? He is simply doing what he believes to be best for the country, that you do not agree with his direction does not mean for a second that he is "treasonous".

At least he is Canadian and only Canadian unlike, Mulcair who also has French citizenship, not to mention Iggy who actually referred to the US as being *"our"* country in a US news broadcast.

Also I hardly this two lines posted by kps against CBC reporting constitutes a "rant". At least not in my books.


----------



## groovetube

Screature. I'm not the one saying Harper committed the crime of treason. As I said, regardless of what I may think of his actions, it doesn't meet the definition of treason.

He may well believe he is doing what he believes is best for Canada, but that doesn't mean I have to accept that it is.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> He is simply doing what he believes to be best for the country,


You make it sound so innocuous. This works well in a dictatorship... Can you say omnibus bill(s)?


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Screature. I'm not the one saying Harper committed the crime of treason. As I said, regardless of what I may think of his actions, it doesn't meet the definition of treason.
> 
> He may well believe he is doing what he believes is best for Canada, *but that doesn't mean I have to accept that it is.*


Of course not, we live in a democracy, but for anyone to refer to him as being treasonous because they disagree with policies is simply ridiculous.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It makes laugh every time I hear this stated by anti-Harper zealots.
> 
> Why in god's name would he sell out Canada to the US, China or any other country? What possible motivation would he have for that? He is simply doing what he believes to be best for the country, that you do not agree with his direction does not mean for a second that he is "treasonous".
> 
> At least he is Canadian and only Canadian unlike, Mulcair who also has French citizenship, not to mention Iggy who actually referred to the US as being *"our"* country in a US news broadcast.


I am speculating the reason that team Harper sold out over 3,000,000 Canadians by signing the FATCA IGA was in return for a "secret promise" that Obama would approve Keystone after the fall election. Two years of secret negotiations certainly failed to produce any concessions that would benefit the impacted Canadians. The heavily redacted transcripts back this up in that the only thing we know for sure is that the big five Canadian banks were the only ones the Finance Department consulted. Certainly they did not ask for, nor take into account any input from other Canadians.

The only reason for such total redaction is that even Harper is totally ashamed of what went on behind those closed doors. If this is so, it is made even more criminal in that the Republirats will almost certainly control both houses after the election and will quickly approve Keystone anyways.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> You make it sound so innocuous. This works well in a dictatorship... Can you say *omnibus bill(s)*?


So tell me mrjimmy, what ulterior motives does Harper have to "sell out" Canada to the US or anyone else? You seem to think there is a conspiracy afoot, so let us know what it is and Harper's "real" motivations are.

Omnibus bill(s) are allowable in our Parliamentary system. Bob Rae while Premier of Ontario anyone?

How soon some seem to forget.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Of course not, we live in a democracy, but for anyone to refer to him as being treasonous because they disagree with policies is simply ridiculous.


Sure, but you're addressing the wrong member here on that.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *I am speculating *the reason that team Harper sold out over 3,000,000 Canadians by signing the FATCA IGA was in return for a "secret promise" that Obama would approve Keystone after the fall election. Two years of secret negotiations certainly failed to produce any concessions that would benefit the impacted Canadians. The heavily redacted transcripts back this up in that the only thing we know for sure is that the big five Canadian banks were the only ones the Finance Department consulted. Certainly they did not ask for, nor take into account any input from other Canadians.
> 
> The only reason for such total redaction is that even Harper is totally ashamed of what went on behind those closed doors. If this is so, it is made even more criminal in that the Republirats will almost certainly control both houses after the election and will quickly approve Keystone anyways.


Yep that is some pretty heavy duty speculation right there.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Sure, but you're addressing the wrong member here on that.


Ok, my misunderstanding. I thought you were in support of the notion.


----------



## mrjimmy

screature said:


> So tell me mrjimmy, what ulterior motives does Harper have to "sell out" Canada to the US or anyone else? You seem to think there is a conspiracy afoot, so let us know what it is and Harper's "real" motivations are.
> 
> Omnibus bill(s) are allowable in our Parliamentary system. Bob Rae while Premier of Ontario anyone?
> 
> How soon some seem to forget.


Why don't we start here:

In praise of Stephen Harper, the opposition MP who fought omnibus bills - The Globe and Mail



> Such massive omnibus bills negate the ability of all MPs, including government MPs, to even know the full impact of these laws, let alone represent their constituents’ interests.


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> Why don't we start here:
> 
> In praise of Stephen Harper, the opposition MP who fought omnibus bills - The Globe and Mail


That doesn't answer my question to you at all it, is simply a diversion. But to address your diversion, it's called *politics*. 

When in *Opposition* it is your duty to *oppose*. When in *power* you use that power to rule. Cut and dry.

Again, Omnibus Bills are allowed in our Parliamentary system.

Why do you think Harper is using them? 

I will tell you why, because he learned the system when in opposition. He didn't make up the rules, he learned them and is now using them to his advantage as all good politicians do. Your complaint and the complaint of the opposition is basically that he learned them too well.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Yep that is some pretty heavy duty speculation right there.


Do you have any other reason that Harper would compromise the charter rights of approximately 3,000,000 Canadians? It is of course a given that Harper believes his loyalty is with his corporate buddies first and the USA second. Now there is no way the USA could make FATCA work without the help of the government of Canada. Therefore there was no reason to sell out 3,000,000 Canadians unless corporate buddies are benefitting. Who is Harper's biggest corporate buddy, Yep that would be the oilsands bunch.

Keystone in exchange for 3,000,000 Canadians turned over to the IRS aka the world's biggest terrorist organization. Must have seemed like a great deal to Harper.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Do you have any other reason that Harper would compromise the charter rights of approximately* 3,000,000 Canadians*? It is of course a given that Harper believes his loyalty is with his corporate buddies first and the USA second. Now there is no way the USA could make FATCA work without the help of the government of Canada. Therefore there was no reason to sell out 3,000,000 Canadians unless corporate buddies are benefitting. Who is Harper's biggest corporate buddy, Yep that would be the oilsands bunch.
> 
> Keystone in exchange for 3,000,000 Canadians turned over to the IRS aka the world's biggest terrorist organization. Must have seemed like a great deal to Harper.


There aren't 3,000,000 Canadians affected by FACTA. Get your facts straight, that would be roughly 1 in 10 Canadians (spouses included) who are dual US citizens, do you really believe that? It is simply ridiculous. There are roughly 1 million Canadian/US dual citizens, roughly 1 in 30 (even that seems high) but much more reasonable and closer to the truth.

As for the rest of your post it is just the same tinfoil hat theory that you always postulate.

Look, if your country of origin bases taxation on citizenship and not residency (the only country in the world that does that) and you have a problem with that you have three choices and what ever way you choose it is your *choice*. Either renounce your US citizenship or fill out the GD forms or don't fill out the forms and suffer the consequences.

Your constant harping on this matter makes me wonder if YOU don't have something to hide from the IRS. If your ducks are in order why are you so afraid?


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Ok, my misunderstanding. I thought you were in support of the notion.


No, I don't think Harper is guilty of treason. That's a pretty serious charge.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> There aren't 3,000,000 Canadians affected by FACTA. Get your facts straight, that would be roughly 1 in 10 Canadians (spouses included) who are dual US citizens, do you really believe that? It is simply ridiculous. There are roughly 1 million Canadian/US dual citizens, roughly 1 in 30 (even that seems high) but much more reasonable and closer to the truth.
> 
> As for the rest of your post it is just the same tinfoil hat theory that you always postulate.
> 
> Look, if your country of origin bases taxation on citizenship and not residency (the only country in the world that does that) and you have a problem with that you have three choices and what ever way you choose it is your *choice*. Either renounce your US citizenship or fill out the GD forms or don't fill out the forms and suffer the consequences.
> 
> Your constant harping on this matter makes me wonder if YOU don't have something to hide from the IRS. If your ducks are in order why are you so afraid?


Stop with the misinformation. You do not have to be an American citizen to be slaughtered. 

Spouse of an an American? Most of your money in joint accounts? Your savings are at risk!

Child of an American? Parents have set-up RESPs? Your money is at risk!

Ever worked or lived in the US? Ever had a Social Security Number or TIN? Your savings are at risk! Joint accounts with your spouse? Their money is at risk!

Became a Canadian citizen before 1978? Were told you had given up your US citizenship? Guess what: Your citizenship was restored in 1986 and you and your spouses life savings are at risk!

Rich con-tributer to the Harper cause? Spend 120 or more days in the US annually because you hate winter? Your life savings are at risk! Yes they are now keeping track at the border!

There are only about 1,000,000 American citizens living in Canada, but thanks to Flaherty's sellout, the IRS defines who is an American and their list is extremely inclusive. 

The estimates are generally around 4 million possible victims but I chose a somewhat more conservative number.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Yep that is some pretty heavy duty speculation right there.


BTW that was pretty much your exact response two years ago when I predicted that Flaherty would sign the IGA, which is exactly what he did. Two years of "tough" negotiations and not one change! So obviously 3 million Canadians were indeed sold out to advance the Keystone.

Seig Heil!


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> BTW that was pretty much your exact response two years ago when I predicted that Flaherty would sign the IGA, which is exactly what he did. Two years of "tough" negotiations and not one change! So obviously 3 million Canadians were indeed sold out to advance the Keystone.


Was the Keystone announced? Mus have missed it.



eMacMan said:


> Seig Heil!


This is just crazy assed talk. Show some restraint.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Was the Keystone announced? Mus have missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is just crazy assed talk. Show some restraint.


So why redact almost every page of those negotiations obtained under FOI. Harper clearly sold out at least 3 million Canadians. If not for Keystone then why?

You do not carry out top secret negotiations for two years, give the other side exactly what they want and get nothing in return.

A phantom Keystone promise is the obvious answer especially as the EPA ok'd it a couple of days before Flaherty's announcement. However if your divining rod is dipping towards another answer I would love to hear it.


----------



## groovetube

Remember the sell out on the softwood thing?

Total grease up and bend over.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Stop with the misinformation. Y*ou do not have to be an American citizen to be slaughtered.
> 
> Spouse of an an American? Most of your money in joint accounts? Your savings are at risk!
> 
> Child of an American? Parents have set-up RESPs? Your money is at risk!
> 
> Ever worked or lived in the US? Ever had a Social Security Number or TIN? Your savings are at risk! Joint accounts with your spouse? Their money is at risk!
> 
> Became a Canadian citizen before 1978? Were told you had given up your US citizenship? Guess what: Your citizenship was restored in 1986 and you and your spouses life savings are at risk!
> 
> *Rich con-tributer to the Harper cause? Spend 120 or more days in the US annually because you hate winter? Your life savings are at risk! *Yes they are now keeping track at the border!
> 
> There are only about 1,000,000 American citizens living in Canada, but thanks to Flaherty's sellout, the IRS defines who is an American and their list is extremely inclusive.
> 
> The estimates are generally around 4 million possible victims but I chose a somewhat more conservative number.


Sorry dude you are the one spreading the misinformation.

3 millions Canadians affected!!??? Yeah right. Completely untrue.

RESPs?? Unaffected.



> Rich con-tributer to the Harper cause? Spend 120 or more days in the US annually because you hate winter? Your life savings are at risk!


Untrue.

Like I said, if you choose to hang onto your US citizenship that is your choice but if you weren't aware that being a citizen of the US makes you subject to US taxation no matter where you reside then you have no one to blame but yourself.

My advice to you is to get a good tax lawyer and accountant... either that or you better cash out those $$$ you might be hiding from the IRS and put them in your crawl space like Walter White did.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *Remember the sell out on the softwood thing?
> *
> Total grease up and bend over.


Now there is a reference filled with facts figures and dates... 

Sorry groove but you need to do a little better than that. Do you know anything about the dispute between Canada and the US on the matter other than to say "Remember the sell out on the softwood thing?"


----------



## Macfury

Remember the Alamo? Ha!



screature said:


> Now there is a reference filled with facts figures and dates...
> 
> Sorry groove but you need to do a little better than that. Do you know anything about the dispute between Canada and the US on the matter other than to say "Remember the sell out on the softwood thing?"


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Sorry dude you are the one spreading the misinformation.
> 
> 3 millions Canadians affected!!??? Yeah right. Completely untrue.
> 
> RESPs?? Unaffected.
> 
> 
> 
> Untrue.
> 
> Like I said, if you choose to hang onto your US citizenship that is your choice but if you weren't aware that being a citizen of the US makes you subject to US taxation no matter where you reside then you have no one to blame but yourself.
> 
> My advice to you is to get a good tax lawyer and accountant... either that or you better cash out those $$$ you might be hiding from the IRS and put them in your crawl space like Walter White did.


The three million is perhaps a bit low, not likely high.

The IGA says only that banks do not have to report RESP numbers. The IRS will still tax the interest and the canadian governments contributions. Since CRA already has the numbers and Flaherty is promising information sharing bet the farm that info will be passed along to the IRS.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Now there is a reference filled with facts figures and dates...
> 
> Sorry groove but you need to do a little better than that. Do you know anything about the dispute between Canada and the US on the matter other than to say "Remember the sell out on the softwood thing?"


It was ute news and discussed endlessly here. It's rather like saying, remember when Harper signed the EU deal?

It's silly to pretend no one remembers what happened on the softwood thing. The conservative spin was they got it done. But many Canadians thought he sold us out on it and gave in the US.

I know you'll disagree, but that doesn't automatically make you right either.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *The three million is perhaps a bit low, not likely high.
> *
> The IGA says only that banks do not have to report RESP numbers. The IRS will still tax the interest and the canadian governments contributions. Since CRA already has the numbers and Flaherty is promising information sharing bet the farm that info will be passed along to the IRS.


1 in 10 or more? 10% or more of the Canadian population! You really believe that?? Sorry but that statement is worthy of this:










and this:










and this:


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Remember the *Alamo?* Ha!


Shalom.

Your turn...


----------



## groovetube

I don't know, but these animated gifs don't really address the topic.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I don't know, but these animated gifs don't really address the topic.


They really do address eMacMan's post.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Shalom.
> 
> Your turn...


One can see why you guys would rather forget that incident! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> They really do address eMacMan's post.


just saying. I can find plenty of animated gifs online to fill my post in response to yours.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> just saying. I can find plenty of animated gifs online to fill my post in response to yours.


Go ahead. No one is stopping you.


----------



## groovetube

I'll pass on that.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I'll pass on that.


Ok that's fine.

Have a great Family Day tomorrow.

Are you taking it off?


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Sorry dude you are the one spreading the misinformation.
> 
> 3 millions Canadians affected!!??? Yeah right. Completely untrue.


actually every Canadian who banks will be affected with increased bank fees :

FATCA facts: What Canadians need to know about new U.S. tax law - Canada - CBC News



> Who is affected by this law?
> 
> The short answer is almost every Canadian. It is expected to cost banks substantial amounts of money to implement the systems required to find residents with U.S. connections, costs the banks may well pass along to all their clients.
> 
> Some estimate it could cost $100 million for each financial institution.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Ok that's fine.
> 
> Have a great Family Day tomorrow.
> 
> Are you taking it off?


You too. Not sure yet, I'm thinking I should take it off. Spent the weekend cleaning, and cleaning up my home studio, so a real day off would be cool.



i-rui said:


> actually every Canadian who banks will be affected with increased bank fees :
> 
> FATCA facts: What Canadians need to know about new U.S. tax law - Canada - CBC News


yikes. -each- institution??


----------



## BigDL

I must say Flaherty, Harper, Kenny et al did a fine job hoodwinking the media this week. The Sunday political shows cemented the fact the media was fooled.

A do nothing know, nothing budget is forgotten and the press is focused on next years budget already as if it's already to be presented...like next week.

For now the PMO/Senate scandal is off the front burner, the news cycle is focused on the Conservative agenda and the Media has taken the lead for the spin(ner) hook, line and sinker.

Too bad for the Conservatives it was during the Olympics and the public may not be paying attention.

Scary how trained professionals are distracted by a shiny object or is it SQUIRREL. it's .


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> actually every Canadian who banks will be affected with increased bank fees :
> 
> FATCA facts: What Canadians need to know about new U.S. tax law - Canada - CBC News


BTW The original $100,000,000 estimate was from a specialist who was trying to rewrite the software for one of the Big-five banks.

His best guess was over a Trillion dollars world wide.

Interesting thing is, the US is hoping to collect a little over a Billion dollars in taxes again world wide. The real jackpot comes from those information forms such as the F(u)BAR, 8938s and 3520s. Each is quite capable of bankrupting any American overseas filer and none of them are in any way related to collecting taxes.

As to collections: To date we see Americans in Canada going through OVDI and owing nothing in taxes while being hit with penalties of at least $10,000 and usually much higher. This on top of spending somewhere between $4000 and $40,000 on those cross border consultants that the Con talking points urge victims to hire.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Scary how trained professionals are distracted by a shiny object or is it SQUIRREL. it's .


Aw, so sorry to see you crying and complaining again. Life must be sooooo tough for you.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Aw, so sorry to see you crying and complaining again. Life must be sooooo tough for you.


There is no joy in Mudville after the senate "scandal" failed to cause the damage for which they were hoping.


----------



## groovetube

Hmmm, that was a nice try macfury but clearly it did cause a nice dent.

And I doubt it's quite over just yet.

That 'good to go' is going to haunt him a little more. 

Though it won't deter the base. Despite some growing discomfort with this amongst them.


----------



## Macfury

And what would have happened if Canada had refused to sign the agreement which it both delayed and negotiated, emacman?


----------



## groovetube

We give up.

What?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> actually every Canadian who banks will be affected with increased bank fees :
> 
> FATCA facts: What Canadians need to know about new U.S. tax law - Canada - CBC News


Really?

You are posting this now? 

Like it is says something new that hasn't' been said before... a thousand times!

Seriously dude if you want to jump on a band wagon, try and make sure it isn't full already.

This is very old news indeed for anyone has been following along.... for I don't know... the last 3 tears or so... 

:lmao:



> If banks refuse to hand over lists of client accounts with U.S. ties, both clients and banks face "very severe" penalties, the CBA points out.
> 
> Penalties for banks and customers include a 30 per cent withholding tax on all U.S. source income and the sale of U.S. securities


Pure BS, this is false. The Banks provide NO information to the IRS, they provide it to the CRA that is why the Canadian banks could avoid the 30% withholding tax penalty and also to avoid Canadian privacy laws.

Jesus, this "author" needs to do his homework... this "column" sounds like some undergrad wrote it from doing his research solely on Wikipedia.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> BTW The original $100,000,000 estimate was from a specialist who was trying to rewrite the software for one of the Big-five banks.
> 
> His best guess was over a Trillion dollars world wide.
> 
> Interesting thing is, the US is hoping to collect a little over a Billion dollars in taxes again world wide. The real jackpot comes from those information forms such as the F(u)BAR, 8938s and 3520s. Each is quite capable of bankrupting any American overseas filer and none of them are in any way related to collecting taxes.
> 
> As to collections: To date we see Americans in Canada going through OVDI and owing nothing in taxes while being hit with penalties of at least $10,000 and usually much higher. This on top of spending somewhere between $4000 and $40,000 on those cross border consultants that the Con talking points urge victims to hire.


:lmao: The whole post.

Like I said before you have a few CHOICES... get a good tax lawyer and accountant, renounce your US citizenship and make up your mind (no dual s**t that suits you when you feel like it) fill out the GD forms, don't fill out the GD forms and suffer the consequences or cash out all your Canadian holdings and put them in your crawl space like Walter White did...

Based on your posts and your HUGE worries I think for you the last option may be the best... but then again I am just speculating. beejacon


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> :lmao: The whole post.
> 
> Like I said before you have a few CHOICES... get a good tax lawyer and accountant, renounce your US citizenship and make up your mind (no dual s**t that suits you when you feel like it) fill out the GD forms, don't fill out the GD forms and suffer the consequences or cash out all your Canadian holdings and put them in your crawl space like Walter White did...
> 
> Based on your posts and your HUGE worries I think for you the last option may be the best... but then again I am just speculating. beejacon


What many of these articles fail to mention is that the US would have acted unilaterally to withhold 30 per cent of the value of US investments for any banks that did not comply with FATCA. The banks asked the Canadian government to negotiate a treaty that did not require them to hand accountholder information directly to the IRS--something they did not want to do.

What does the Canadian federal government get out of this? A better deal for Canadian banks and dual citizens than the many countries that have already signed on to FATCA.

FATCA is an Obama policy--where's the EhMac support for Republicans who have stood up against FATCA?


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> actually every Canadian who banks will be affected with increased bank fees :
> 
> FATCA facts: What Canadians need to know about new U.S. tax law - Canada - CBC News


Oh the poor banks... I didn't realize you cared so much for their well being.

Not to mention Canadian's at large who may, based upon pure speculation, have to pay an additional $15 dollars/year on bank fees.

I think I pissed out $15 of water last month, by way of example of the significance of the dollar value you and the author of that sad piece of so called journalism is referring to.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Really?
> 
> You are posting this now?
> 
> Like it is says something new that hasn't' been said before... a thousand times!
> 
> Seriously dude if you want to jump on a band wagon, try and make sure it isn't full already.
> 
> This is very old news indeed for anyone has been following along.... for I don't know... the last 3 tears or so...


Yes, really. I posted it because you chastised eMacMan for "misinformation", while you falsely claimed that FATCA wouldn't affect that many Canadians, while the truth is pretty much all of us of us will pay for this through bank fees. again:



screature said:


> Sorry dude you are the one spreading the misinformation.
> 
> 3 millions Canadians affected!!??? Yeah right. Completely untrue.


point being if you're going to jump on someone for "misinformation" you shouldn't be spreading more misinformation in the following sentence.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Oh the poor banks... I didn't realize you cared so much for their well being.


i don't. the banks will be fine. Canadians will pay through fees they'll pass on to us. Also, from what i understand the banks will pass the information to the CRA and then the CRA will pass the information to the IRS, so that also means government resources will also be spent on this.

I'm not sure what the solution is. It would have been nice if the government wasn't bullied into this, but ultimately we can't really cut ties to the US over this either, I just think trying to paint this as "no big thing" is BS. Canadians are essentially going to be paying for the US government to collect taxes from residents in our country. that's crazy.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> Yes, really. I posted it because you chastised eMacMan for "misinformation", while you falsely claimed that FATCA wouldn't affect that many Canadians, while the truth is pretty much all of us of us will pay for this through bank fees. again:
> 
> point being if you're going to jump on someone for "misinformation" you shouldn't be spreading more misinformation in the following sentence.


:lmao:

Get on it while you can now... 










Even though you know next to nothing about the subject.

Getty up...


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Get on board even though you nothing know next to nothing about the subject.
> 
> Getty up...


oh yes, i forgot, you work on parliament hill so you're the only one with an informed opinion. how silly of me to read and inform myself about the matter.

but would you be so kind as to point out what exactly i know nothing about oh wise one? what exactly from my posts was so inaccurate? i mean if you can spare the time in-between posting cheesy clip art images as some kind of internet "burn"....


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> oh yes, i forgot, *you work on parliament hill *so you're the only one with an informed opinion. how silly of me to read and inform myself about the matter.
> 
> but would you be so kind as to point out what exactly i know nothing about oh wise one? what exactly from my posts was so inaccurate? i mean if you can spare the time in-between posting cheesy clip art images as some kind of internet "burn"....


zen.state, is that you???...

Dude. All you have is a reference to an article that says nothing new and is factually incorrect and you have never posted about this subject before... (it is years old now you know if you have actually been following along.)

I call that bandwagon jumping.

Even though I totally disagree with eMacMan on the subject I know he has read up on the matter as it seems to be of some *personal* significance to him.

You?

I really don't think so too much. 

To me it seems all you want to do is oppose those who in any way don't agree with you and your personal political proclivities regardless of whether or not you really know anything about the issue at hand.

You aren't an elected MP of the opposition and you don't have to oppose just because, you can just let stuff that you don't know anything about go under your RADAR.


----------



## groovetube

what does it matter if it's of personal significance? Does it make hime less correct?

The taunting I see levelled at him is unfair. I don't think he has suggested it's new news, and why is it relevant whether it's of personal significance?

It's either factual, or it isn't.

The light reading I've done says i-rui is correct. All Canadians are going to paying for this and it's expensive.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> All Canadians are going to paying for this and it's expensive.


Light reading will show you that virtually any government law or initiative costs all Canadians money. That doesn't seem to bother you when we're talking about programs you love like socialized healthcare, so why bother making that point here?


----------



## groovetube

because personally, I see a big difference between paying for the costs of big banks having systems to report Canadian's financial details to a foreign government, and providing healthcare to human beings.

Though not everyone sees any difference there, and I'm not about to convince you.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Dude. All you have is a reference to an article that says nothing new and is factually incorrect and you have never posted about this subject before...


i've snipped out your other childish comments. how is it "factually incorrect"? in the recent past you've demonstrated that you profoundly misunderstand what "facts" actually mean, so i'm curious if this is another instance. 



Macfury said:


> Light reading will show you that virtually any government law or initiative costs all Canadians money. That doesn't seem to bother you when we're talking about programs you love like socialized healthcare, so why bother making that point here?


it isn't healthcare, or roads, or research. Canadians will be paying to implement a US tax policy. that is quite a different beast. i'm surprised you're defending this MF.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it isn't healthcare, or roads, or research. Canadians will be paying to implement a US tax policy. that is quite a different beast. i'm surprised you're defending this MF.


I'm not defending FATCA, I'm defending Canada's response to it, especially if not signing on means that the US unilaterally skims 30 per cent off of Canadian investments in that country. 

The left has long screamed about the ability to hide money in foreign countries. Why are you complaining when the US does something about it?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I'm not defending FATCA, I'm defending Canada's response to it, especially if not signing on means that the US unilaterally skims 30 per cent off of Canadian investments in that country.


i already stated the following :



i-rui said:


> I'm not sure what the solution is. It would have been nice if the government wasn't bullied into this, but ultimately we can't really cut ties to the US over this either, I just think trying to paint this as "no big thing" is BS. Canadians are essentially going to be paying for the US government to collect taxes from residents in our country. that's crazy.





Macfury said:


> The left has long screamed about the ability to hide money in foreign countries. Why are you complaining when the US does something about it?


again, i'm complaining because Canadians are being asked to shoulder the financial cost of implementing a US tax policy.

if we're going to play fantasy politics and i was PM i would have stalled until every other country negotiated their deals to see what the parameters of negotiations would be and worked out the best possible deal for Canadians. i would have pushed for the US to pay for the cost of the implementation. I would consider having the banks report directly to the IRS and leave the CRA's resources out of this. I would have engaged in some sort of political horse trading so at least Canada could have net benefited from giving in.

So while I recognize that the current government was in a difficult situation that doesn't shield them from criticism about how poorly they've handled this.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i'm complaining because Canadians are being asked to shoulder the financial cost of implementing a US tax policy.


FATCA is unfair and punitive. It is so for every country that is subject to it. They can't change that fact.



i-rui said:


> if we're going to play fantasy politics and i was PM i would have stalled until every other country negotiated their deals to see what the parameters of negotiations would be and worked out the best possible deal for Canadians.


Canada was the last of the G7 countries to sign on and received the best deal by far.



i-rui said:


> i would have pushed for the US to pay for the cost of the implication.


They offered to do that by skimming Canadian investments in that country.



i-rui said:


> I would consider having the banks report directly to the IRS and leave the CRA's resources out of this.


How would that have changed the cost of compliance to any significant degree? The CRA and the IRS already have an international treaty to share information. 



i-rui said:


> I would have engaged in some sort of political horse trading so at least Canada could have net benefited from giving in.


If no agreement could have been reached, the US would have just withheld 30% of US investments.



i-rui said:


> So while I recognize that the current government was in a difficult situation that doesn't shield them from criticism about how poorly they've handled this.


They did the best of any country affected.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> How would that have changed the cost of compliance to any significant degree? The CRA and the IRS already have an international treaty to share information.


By cutting the CRA out of the equation they would eliminate the resources the CRA will have to exert collecting and transmitting this new data to the IRS. Japan, Switzerland, and Bermuda all seem to be following this model. The only reason I can see not to do this is if the government wants to collect the data for their own Records.



Macfury said:


> They did the best of any country affected.


That's a matter of opinion, and since there are still plenty of countries that have not signed on I would say you're judging from a very limited amount of results.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I'm not defending FATCA, I'm defending Canada's response to it, especially if not signing on means that the US unilaterally skims 30 per cent off of Canadian investments in that country.
> 
> The left has long screamed about the ability to hide money in foreign countries. Why are you complaining when the US does something about it?


First off Americans do not hide money in Canadian accounts. 

Secondly that proposed levy violated so many international treaties that the US would have found it impossible to enforce.

It is very important to understand that the way the IRS has set up taxes for Americans living abroad involves tax credits on foreign taxes paid. Canada has higher tax rates than the US so it is quite unusual for an American living in Canada to owe any taxes.

*The goal of the IRS is not to collect taxes owed.* It is to collect penalties on forms such as the F(u)BAR, 8938 and 3520s. The penalties for failing to file, or an error in filing each of these forms is $10,000 or half of the amount of the account, whichever is greater and those penalties can be assessed for each of up to six years.

As mentioned earlier the banks do not have to pass along information on RESPs. However the IRS considers them a taxable trust, the CRA already has information on RESPs and is obligated under the IGAs information exchange to pass this info on to the IRS. IOW an American step-parent who has set up an RESP for his spouses Canadian child could find him/her self facing penalties of $180,000 or more on that single RESP for a child with zero American obligations. *For the Con spinners to imply that RESPs are somehow exempt is extremely irresponsible.*

*The statement that the CRA will not collect these penalties is equally irresponsible. If the IRS can pressure Canada into signing the IGA, they can pressure them into collecting. *The IRS already has the ability to pressure the Big 5 banks into helping them collect.
*
*The jackpot is those penalties. The IRS has spent more than 20 years preparing and refining this fiscal mousetrap, you can bet your a55 they have figured out how they can collect.

How much could this cost Canada. We know there are about a million American citizens in Canada and perhaps 5% have been filing their taxes and other forms as required. We also know that the IRS gets to define who they call an American. Call the total 2 million or 4 million that puts a lot of Canadians with only tenuous ties to the USA at extreme risk. Typical penalties for the poorest individuals filing under the current OVDI has been ~$25,000. BTW the taxes owed are typically less than $100.

Even taking the lower 2 million American person figure and that lowest end of the penalty spectrum, that's a minimum of $50 Billion that the IRS intends to steal from Canada. Now Canadian financial institutions leverage that money so the damage will be closer to $250 to $300 Billion. 

But the damage is even worse than that. Those most vulnerable are those who are retired or close to retirement. These are the people who have significant savings. If the IRS manages to pirate a sizable portion of their life savings those retirees won't be able to replenish those savings. What happens when they require long term care? Instead of paying for it out of their own pocket suddenly it is the Canadian or Provincial taxpayer on the hook.

This does have an effect on all Canadians and it is far more than a $15/year increase in fees.

While Canada's response was entirely predictable. In fact I have been accurately predicting it for more than two years, it is still indefensible. It is also betrayal of all of those Americans who have chosen to make Canada their home, and to a lesser degree it is a betrayal of all Canadians.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> By cutting the CRA out of the equation...


Direct reporting of individual Canadian banks to foreign governments? Be honest--is this the model you would have wanted Canada to follow?



i-rui said:


> ...they would eliminate the resources the CRA will have to exert collecting and transmitting this new data to the IRS.


Only reporting, not collecting. The banks are collecting.



i-rui said:


> The only reason I can see not to do this is if the government wants to collect the data for their own Records.


How would collecting this specific data set benefit them? It was the banks who asked for the intermediary step.



i-rui said:


> That's a matter of opinion, and since there are still plenty of countries that have not signed on I would say you're judging from a very limited amount of results.


The G8? Let's see what happens to the other 70 nations the U.S. is bullying, then see if you're right.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Direct reporting of individual Canadian banks to foreign governments? Be honest--is this the model you would have wanted Canada to follow?


i would have wanted Canada to not be a part of the entire endeavour. if we're being forced to do it I'd want the cost to Canada be as small as possible. Perhaps with the caveat that the CRA can access these records when and if they feel it's relevant as a safeguard.



Macfury said:


> Only reporting, not collecting. The banks are collecting.


and the CRA is charged with housing and reporting that information. it's an unneeded level of bureaucracy that has a real cost.



Macfury said:


> How would collecting this specific data set benefit them? It was the banks who asked for the intermediary step.


it's information. unfortunately in our modern world governments seem to want to collect as much personal information as they can on their citizens.



Macfury said:


> The G8? Let's see what happens to the other 70 nations the U.S. is bullying, then see if you're right.


70+ > 8. Despite the US's threat i think we would be far away from them actually trying to skim 30% off Canadian based transactions. The more countries that delay or refuse to capitulate would strengthen Canada's position IMO.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I'm not defending FATCA, I'm defending Canada's response to it, especially if not signing on means that the US unilaterally skims 30 per cent off of Canadian investments in that country.
> 
> The left has long screamed about the ability to hide money in foreign countries. Why are you complaining when the US does something about it?


Sadly, this is a tax grab and not an act of going after those who launder and hide money. I think that it is totally unreasonable for the US to threaten the Canadian banks with that 30% tax if our banks don't comply. This is extortion. Canada is NOT a tax haven. I have not had to pay tax to the US in all my 37 years here in Canada since we are taxed higher than in the US. I did have to prove that my provincial tax was higher than the New York State and New York City tax, in that St. John's does not have its own income tax.

So, it would be nice to see both the US and Canada go after the real cheats who are hiding money rather than paying taxes on this money in the REAL tax havens. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, this is a tax grab and not an act of going after those who launder and hide money. I think that it is totally unreasonable for the US to threaten the Canadian banks with that 30% tax if our banks don't comply. This is extortion. Canada is NOT a tax haven. I have not had to pay tax to the US in all my 37 years here in Canada since we are taxed higher than in the US. I did have to prove that my provincial tax was higher than the New York State and New York City tax, in that St. John's does not have its own income tax.
> 
> So, it would be nice to see both the US and Canada go after the real cheats who are hiding money rather than paying taxes on this money in the REAL tax havens. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


This is President Obama's idea and he will use your money to help the poor, Dr. G. You are needed!


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> How much could this cost Canada. We know there are about a million American citizens in Canada and perhaps 5% have been filing their taxes and other forms as required.


I have no love for tax collectors of any sort, but I think this is the crux of the matter.


----------



## groovetube

Yet the Canadian government agreed to it, under the threats of 30% withholding tax for investors.

They had no choice! They were forced!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Yet the Canadian government agreed to it, under the threats of 30% withholding tax for investors.
> 
> They had no choice! They were forced!


Why make an idiotic statement like that?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This is President Obama's idea and he will use your money to help the poor, Dr. G. You are needed!


It's no more idiotic than some of the ones you have made macfury.

If you want to make these sorts of posts, don't whine when someone else does it too.


----------



## Macfury

Sure, 'tube. Thanks for your excellent contribution, as usual.



groovetube said:


> It's no more idiotic than some of the ones you have made macfury.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> This is President Obama's idea and he will use your money to help the poor, Dr. G. You are needed!


Two of the main death forms the F(u)BAR and the 3520 and their penalties were around before the Obama Admin. This has been carefully orchestrated over an extended period of time. Any taxes the IRS collects this side of the border are gravy. It's those penalties they want.

Again it is not a tax grab. The IRS is after those blatantly usury penalties, which can be and are being applied even when the individuals being mugged owe the US zero in taxes. They can even be applied to Canadians who have not lived south of 49 for over 20 years.

One thing I can guarantee is that Harper will not be able to keep most Canadians in the dark leading into the next election. The vast majority of Canadians with American ties will be voting to give the Harper regime the heave ho. Add that to the lost vet vote and you can bet that Harper has severed ties with a sizable chunk of his core supporters.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Sure, 'tube. Thanks for your excellent contribution, as usual.


a little sour grape there since I highlighted it. Personally I have no problem with that, since I do the same thing. But calling it out as 'idiotic', well come on macfury...

Of course it's idiotic! :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Banks lock out Americans over new tax law - Sep. 15, 2013

This is what Canadian banks should consider. Throw out ALL Americans along with those tax-cheating Americans, and save us all a great deal of grief and money. They can take their money and store it in their basements.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Banks lock out Americans over new tax law - Sep. 15, 2013
> 
> This is what Canadian banks should consider. Throw out ALL Americans along with those tax-cheating Americans, and save us all a great deal of grief and money. They can take their money and store it in their basements.


Been going on in Switzerland for a couple of years. Not the 'Bama buds of course but those Americans who live and work in Switzerland.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Been going on in Switzerland for a couple of years. Not the 'Bama buds of course but those Americans who live and work in Switzerland.


Swiss banks are secure and secret, but I prefer the banks in the Cayman Islands. They offer security, secrecy AND a warm place to stay when you are there to do business. My box is not far from Mitt Romney's box .............. although his box is under a different name, but I recognized him at the bank. :greedy::greedy:


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> i've snipped out your other childish comments. *how is it "factually incorrect"?* in the recent past *you've demonstrated that you profoundly misunderstand what "facts" *actually mean, so i'm curious if this is another instance.


This:



> Also, the U.S. sees registered savings accounts like *RDSPs, RESPs.. * as "offshore trusts," *and therefore can potentially tax gains in them.*


Despite the fact that the author listed TSFAs as "Registered Accounts", which they are not, thus the lack of the "R" in the acronym and the incredibly bad grammar, not true, registered accounts are excluded in the agreement.

:lmao:

Good one. 

I could easily say the same for you, except that you don't seem to have that much grasp on simple logic, so I am not at all that sure you would understand, in light of your recent posts... beejacon

See how that works? It's called a double edged sword.

Look, I have no real bone to pick with you on this subject except that suddenly you read a couple of articles and somehow you are an expert on the subject.

I have been following this file for years so please excuse me if your jumping on this bandwagon with a bone to pick doesn't come across as jumping on the bandwagon just to further your anti-government agenda.

Serious question... What government in this world do you support and not some mythical one that exists in imagination?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> Despite the fact that the author listed TSFAs as "Registered Accounts", which they are not, thus the lack of the "R" in the acronym and the incredibly bad grammar, not true, *registered accounts are excluded in the agreement.
> *


Very deceptive. The banks do not have to report them. However the CRA already has the info as part of the process, and Flaherty has flat out promised to share it with the IRS, CIA, FBI, NSA, HSA..............

These accounts are all viewed as taxable by the IRS and more importantly the IRS demands they be reported by Americans on one or more of the death forms. If there is anything in the agreement that states other wise please point it out.

RRSPs generally have not been taxable but again are extremely vulnerable as the IRS demands they be reported on at least two and in many cases more of their death forms. 

OTOH the IGA over-rides all existing treaties so unless the IGA flat out states that RRSPs are specifically exempted from taxation *and F(u)BAR, 8938, 8851, 3520... reporting*, it would be incredibly naive not to expect the IRS to go after them. Believe me if you can cite where these exemptions are clearly stated, including all information forms, at least a few Canadians will breath at least a little easier. If you cannot please do not mislead CanAms into believing RRSPs, RESPS... are somehow protected.

Furthermore as has been clearly illustrated on numerous occasions the IRS is not after back taxes. As Dr. G. accurately reported it is most unusual for an American living in Canada to owe any taxes. 

It is after the penalties relating to all those information forms. That is the only possible reason the IRS needs to know any more than the interest or dividends earned. If you have clear evidence written into the IGA; that the IRS will not be able to collect those penalties, either through the CRA or pressure on the banks and other financial institutions. Please cite it. 

Sorry but Flaherty's word is insufficient. Having completely caved to US pressure on the IGA, how can this government be trusted not to cave a second time when the IRS comes to collect its blood money?


----------



## Dr.G.

"OTOH the IGA over-rides all existing treaties so unless the IGA flat out states that RRSPs are specifically exempted from taxation and F(u)BAR, 8938, 8851, 3520... reporting, it would be incredibly naive not to expect the IRS to go after them. Believe me if you can cite where these exemptions are clearly stated, including all information forms, at least a few Canadians will breath at least a little easier. If you cannot please do not mislead CanAms into believing RRSPs, RESPS... are somehow protected.

Furthermore as has been clearly illustrated on numerous occasions the IRS is not after back taxes. As Dr. G. accurately reported it is most unusual for an American living in Canada to owe any taxes." 

This is what my tax accountant is telling me. My greatest asset is my RRSP. I have contributed the maximum and watched it grow over the past 36 years, especially since I turned it into a self-directed RRSP in which I controlled what went into it at any time due to online trading. Still, this is the "plum" that the IRS would love to pick. It remains to be seen if this will truly be exempt. We shall see.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Very deceptive. The banks do not have to report them. However the CRA already has the info as part of the process, and Flaherty has flat out promised to share it with the IRS, CIA, FBI, NSA, HSA..............
> 
> These accounts are all viewed as taxable by the IRS and more importantly the IRS demands they be reported by Americans on one or more of the death forms. If there is anything in the agreement that states other wise please point it out.
> 
> RRSPs generally have not been taxable but again are extremely vulnerable as the IRS demands they be reported on at least two and in many cases more of their death forms.
> 
> OTOH the IGA over-rides all existing treaties so unless the IGA flat out states that RRSPs are specifically exempted from taxation *and F(u)BAR, 8938, 8851, 3520... reporting*, it would be incredibly naive not to expect the IRS to go after them. Believe me if you can cite where these exemptions are clearly stated, including all information forms, at least a few Canadians will breath at least a little easier. If you cannot please do not mislead CanAms into believing RRSPs, RESPS... are somehow protected.
> 
> Furthermore as has been clearly illustrated on numerous occasions the IRS is not after back taxes. As Dr. G. accurately reported it is most unusual for an American living in Canada to owe any taxes.
> 
> It is after the penalties relating to all those information forms. That is the only possible reason the IRS needs to know any more than the interest or dividends earned. If you have clear evidence written into the IGA; that the IRS will not be able to collect those penalties, either through the CRA or pressure on the banks and other financial institutions. Please cite it.
> 
> Sorry but Flaherty's word is insufficient. Having completely caved to US pressure on the IGA, how can this government be trusted not to cave a second time when the IRS comes to collect its blood money?


Blah blah blah... I have heard all of this from you before eMacMan, you still have failed to answer my most salient question to you... Why are YOU *personally* so afraid??

You fill out a few forms of your country of origin and you are done (unless you have something to hide)... yes you have to fill them out annually.

So do I but I am only a Canadian citizen... So I only have one set of forms to fill out.

You seem to have had the luxury of having dual citizenship in the past when it served you well and that it seems it no longer serves you well, you're all up in arms about it... poor you. 

Your country of origin taxes you based on your citizenship and not your place of residence unlike any other country in the world. I have mentioned to you several times now what your options are but you seem to be stuck in some kind of cognitive rut.

Time to face up to the facts man... fill out the GD forms, don't fill out the GD forms and suffer the taxation consequences of your place of dual citizenship /place of origin, renounce your US citizenship or cash out your Canadian holdings and stash them in a very safe place, or probably the preferred option, get a good tax lawyer and accountant.

I don't know how many times over the years I have told you what your realistic options are... 

Griping about it here incessantly isn't going to change anything. 

Neither is voting NDP or Liberal. This is a done deal and would be regardless of the political stripe of the Canadian Government in power... despite the naive commentary coming from the media peanut gallery and here as well.

Better to get used to it and get your s**t in order.

That is my best advice to you... as it has always been.


----------



## groovetube

Wait second. That doesn't begin to address the questions screature. I'm following this, admittedly I don't know that much about this but it's piqued my interest. Both eMacMan and I-rui have asked some good questions.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Wait second. That doesn't begin to address the questions screature. I'm following this, admittedly I don't know that much about this but it's piqued my interest. Both eMacMan and I-rui have asked some good questions.


Which questions do you think were good?


----------



## groovetube

right in their posts macfury.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Blah blah blah... I have heard all of this from you before eMacMan, you still have failed to answer my most salient question to you... Why are YOU *personally* so afraid??
> 
> You fill out a few forms of your country of origin and you are done (unless you have something to hide)... yes you have to fill them out annually.
> 
> So do I but I am only a Canadian citizen... So I only have one set of forms to fill out.
> 
> You seem to have had the luxury of having dual citizenship in the past when it served you well and that it seems it no longer serves you well, you're all up in arms about it... poor you.
> 
> Your country of origin taxes you based on your citizenship and not your place of residence unlike any other country in the world. I have mentioned to you several times now what your options are but you seem to be stuck in some kind of cognitive rut.
> 
> Time to face up to the facts man... fill out the GD forms, don't fill out the GD forms and suffer the taxation consequences of your place of dual citizenship /place of origin, renounce your US citizenship or cash out your Canadian holdings and stash them in a very safe place, or probably the preferred option, get a good tax lawyer and accountant.
> 
> I don't know how many times over the years I have told you what your realistic options are...
> 
> Griping about it here incessantly isn't going to change anything.
> 
> Neither is voting NDP or Liberal. This is a done deal and would be regardless of the political stripe of the Canadian Government in power... despite the naive commentary coming from the media peanut gallery and here as well.
> 
> Better to get used to it and get your s**t in order.
> 
> That is my best advice to you... as it has always been.


Let's go one at a time rather than risk confusing you. I have no doubt that Flaherty did everything he could to protect the banks and serve his US masters. My questions are entirely related to the million+ Canadians this agreement throws under the IRS juggernaut.

So let's address just the bit about banks not having to report RESPs, RRSPs..... That is the prescribed Con talking point and while technically accurate it is also misleading. It implies these accounts will not be reported, which is extremely dangerous mis-information. The CRA has that information. Flaherty has committed the CRA to sharing financial information with the IRS. Therefore they will be reported to the IRS.

Anyone that is filing US taxes currently has to report these accounts on at least one and probably more of the IRS information forms mentioned. The same forms whose only known purpose is extortion. Missing or making a mistake on just one of these forms can cost the taxpayer their life savings, even if they do not owe a dime in taxes. 

 *So, if the agreement does, as you have implied, change the current requirements for American taxpayers living in Canada and eliminates the need for them to report these accounts on their 1040s, F(u)BARS, 8938s, 8891s and/or 3520s; please, please, please, please, please; cite the basis for that statement. 
*


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan, the banks may not have to report RRSPs, RESPs, TFSAs, etc, but we have to on our US tax forms. The IRS is looking for large amounts of money being stashed away and deposited into these sorts of accounts. Thus, even if our banks are off the hook, we are still on the hook to report these accounts. According to my CIBC bank manager, they have to report that I have a CIBC RRSP with them, but do not have to report the amount. This way, the IRS can cross reference if I am reporting my RRSP accurately ............. or even reporting it at all. Since I do report this account, I am OK, as is CIBC. 

I still feel as if it is all an IRS tax rip off that will not net the true cheaters.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> right in their posts macfury.


I guess I was right-- didn't think you could identify the questions that were supposedly good ones.


----------



## i-rui

screature said:


> Despite the fact that the author listed TSFAs as "Registered Accounts", which they are not, thus the lack of the "R" in the acronym and the incredibly bad grammar, not true


TFSAs ARE registered :

Tax Free Savings Account (TFSA)



> The Tax-Free Savings Account (TFSA) is a flexible, *registered*, general-purpose savings vehicle that allows Canadians to earn tax-free investment income to more easily meet lifetime savings needs.





screature said:


> registered accounts are excluded in the agreement.


the original article was from before the agreement was signed, and accurately stated that because of how the IRS views these accounts they could *potentially* tax gains from them.



> potential |pəˈtenCHəl|
> adjective [ attrib. ]
> having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future:


eMacMan has already gone over his concerns that although this new agreement excludes the banks from reporting these financial products, the individual may still be on the hook for them. even after the agreement was signed it still remains unclear :

FATCA tax deal with U.S. takes some heat off Canadian banks - Politics - CBC News



> RDSPs, RESPs status unclear
> 
> Canada also successfully negotiated exemptions for most of the registered accounts held by Canadians.
> 
> Prior to the agreement, IRS did not recognize registered disability savings plans, registered education savings plans, or tax-free savings accounts, and treated them as “off-shore trusts” — and taxed them accordingly.
> 
> The new agreement states Canadian registered accounts "shall not be treated as U.S. Reportable Accounts under the Agreement," but it's not clear if that exempts Canadian citizens who have U.S. ties from reporting them as well.
> 
> The IRS did not immediately reply to a request for clarification.


so, yes there is still the *potential* that those accounts may be taxed. The original article is still factually correct, and as long as there is doubt on how those accounts will be dealt with by the IRS will remain factually correct.

while it may be your opinion that these accounts will not be taxed, it is clear that others are concerned that they will be. opinions are not facts, and until there is clarification on the matter can not be presented as such.



screature said:


> Look, I have no real bone to pick with you on this subject except that suddenly you read a couple of articles and somehow you are an expert on the subject.


so just to be clear, you're the expert here?

i don't claim to be an expert, and truth be told i'm not going to dig any deeper on the intricacies of how the IRS views the accounts of US citizens because that part of FATCA doesn't affect me.

What does affect me is how the implementation will raise everyone's bank fees, and the reason i've "suddenly" become interested in this is because the agreement was only signed a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> TFSAs ARE registered :
> 
> Tax Free Savings Account (TFSA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the original article was from before the agreement was signed, and accurately stated that because of how the IRS views these accounts they could *potentially* tax gains from them.
> 
> 
> 
> eMacMan has already gone over his concerns that although this new agreement excludes the banks from reporting these financial products, the individual may still be on the hook for them. even after the agreement was signed it still remains unclear :
> 
> FATCA tax deal with U.S. takes some heat off Canadian banks - Politics - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> so, yes there is still the *potential* that those accounts may be taxed. The original article is still factually correct, and as long as there is doubt on how those accounts will be dealt with by the IRS will remain factually correct.
> 
> while it may be your opinion that these accounts will not be taxed, it is clear that others are concerned that they will be. opinions are not facts, and until there is clarification on the matter can not be presented as such.
> 
> 
> 
> so just to be clear, you're the expert here?
> 
> i don't claim to be an expert, and truth be told i'm not going to dig any deeper on the intricacies of how the IRS views the accounts of US citizens because that part of FATCA doesn't affect me.
> 
> What does affect me is how the implementation will raise everyone's bank fees, and the reason i've "suddenly" become interested in this is because the agreement was only signed a couple of weeks ago.


Didn't the cons squash the NDP attempt to cap bank fees at 50 cents?

From the little I've been able to find on this issue, I have found the same concerns. It's just not completely clear, and the IRS not clarifying to me, is a bit of a red flag.

Most concerning is the idea that if the IRS decides these are taxable, and you haven;t reported these, the penalties may be pretty stiff.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Didn't the cons squash the NDP attempt to cap bank fees at 50 cents?
> 
> From the little I've been able to find on this issue, I have found the same concerns. It's just not completely clear, and the IRS not clarifying to me, is a bit of a red flag.
> 
> Most concerning is the idea that if the IRS decides these are taxable, and you haven;t reported these, the penalties may be pretty stiff.


While I could be affected, truth is at over 70,000 pages and a gadzillion forms no-one can be 100% sure they are compliant, I have at least made an honest effort. However I personally know a half dozen accidental Americans, who having never filed US taxes, are at extreme risk. 

Having watched this develop over the past few years, I am also internet acquainted with perhaps 100 or more CanAms in various states of distress. Some are at risk of losing their life savings even though they are not US citizens and their US ties are extremely tenuous.

Typically to become compliant under the criminal OVDI procedure it would cost them over $10,000 in cross border tax consultants plus 27% of the highest total of their bank accounts in the past 6 years. IOW if they had sold a house and their bank account had held say $750,000 for fifteen minutes the IRS would be demanding over 200,000. Even if they do not owe a dime in taxes. In this case they it is possible the IRS would claim some taxes owed in capital gains. Yet another extortion information form not filed.

This really begs at least two questions but as promised I will limit it to one. Most Americans were unaware that they even had to file taxes let alone that it is absolutely crucial that husband and wife maintain separate bank accounts. The IRS views the entire amount of a joint account as belonging to the targeted spouse. 

*What has been done to protect the savings of the Canadian half of mixed marriages?
*


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I guess I was right-- didn't think you could identify the questions that were supposedly good ones.


Bingo!


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui I can simplify it for you. If the IRS can in any way no matter how nebulous, tie you to the US, the IRS views your accounts as theirs. 

It's that simple unless of course you are reluctant to part with your life savings.


----------



## groovetube

on another topic, Harper appointed swindler now managing a well known strip club in Ottawa! :lmao:

Suspended senator Patrick Brazeau now working in an Ottawa strip club (as a manager) | National Post


----------



## i-rui

eMacMan said:


> i-rui I can simplify it for you. If the IRS can in any way no matter how nebulous, tie you to the US, the IRS views your accounts as theirs.
> 
> It's that simple unless of course you are reluctant to part with your life savings.


One would hope that if this government is trumpeting the exemptions they were able to "negotiate" that they actually have some merit and will protect those type of accounts. Until we have real world instances or clarification on how the IRS treats these tax returns no one can say with certainty.

however given their past incompetence I certainly understand your concern and worry,

While i can't simply accept your statement as "fact", i do appreciate that you are not necessarily presenting it as such and it is more your belief based on your research & suspicions.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> One would hope that if this government is trumpeting the exemptions they were able to "negotiate" that they actually have some merit and will protect those type of accounts. Until we have real world instances or clarification on how the IRS treats these tax returns no one can say with certainty.
> 
> however given their past incompetence I certainly understand your concern and worry,
> 
> While i can't simply accept your statement as "fact", i do appreciate that you are not necessarily presenting it as such and it is more your belief based on your research & suspicions.


To all appearances after two years of heavy negotiations, the IGA is the same one the IRS demanded Canada sign two years ago. 

Still waiting for Screature to answer the two questions on the table. Believe me if Canada managed to protect Canadian citizens as effectively as they protected the interests of the banks, I will be both extremely surprised and delighted.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> on another topic, Harper appointed swindler now managing a well known strip club in Ottawa! :lmao:
> 
> Suspended senator Patrick Brazeau now working in an Ottawa strip club (as a manager) | National Post


Yes. He has quite a penchant for choosing deserving representatives for the CON party.
More to come.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> on another topic, Harper appointed swindler now managing a well known strip club in Ottawa! :lmao:
> 
> Suspended senator Patrick Brazeau now working in an Ottawa strip club (as a manager) | National Post


While he certainly looks the part, I can't see any political concerns, unless of course this is one of Harpers secret hangouts.


----------



## eMacMan

Politics;
Poli from the Greek meaning many and tics being blood sucking insects.

Wish I knew who I was quoting there.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

eMacMan said:


> Politics;
> Poli from the Greek meaning many and tics being blood sucking insects.
> 
> Wish I knew who I was quoting there.


Pretty sure that's a quote from Stephano Harperis


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Let's go one at a time rather than risk confusing you*. I have no doubt that Flaherty did everything he could to protect the banks and serve his US masters. My questions are entirely related to the million+ Canadians this agreement throws under the IRS juggernaut.
> 
> So let's address just the bit about banks not having to report RESPs, RRSPs..... That is the prescribed Con talking point and while technically accurate it is also misleading. It implies these accounts will not be reported, which is extremely dangerous mis-information. The CRA has that information. Flaherty has committed the CRA to sharing financial information with the IRS. Therefore they will be reported to the IRS.
> 
> Anyone that is filing US taxes currently has to report these accounts on at least one and probably more of the IRS information forms mentioned. The same forms whose only known purpose is extortion. Missing or making a mistake on just one of these forms can cost the taxpayer their life savings, even if they do not owe a dime in taxes.
> 
> *So, if the agreement does, as you have implied, change the current requirements for American taxpayers living in Canada and eliminates the need for them to report these accounts on their 1040s, F(u)BARS, 8938s, 8891s and/or 3520s; please, please, please, please, please; cite the basis for that statement.
> *


First stuff your condescension where the sun don't shine.

Second I have said everything that I need to say to you on the subject except for one last thing...

I really have no sympathy for those who have undoubtedly benefited from their dual citizenship over the years and who should know full well that the US is the only country in the world that bases its taxation on citizenship, not residency and now they are going to cry foul and moan about the fact that they have to fill out a few forms to be compliant.

It really does make me wonder what you have to hide, as you have never answered my repeated very direct questions about how it affects you directly beyond having to fill out said forms.

So that being said I am done with you on this subject as for the most part all you have said is with your tinfoil hat on and I really no longer have the patience for that kind of conspiracy theory gobbledygook clap trap.


----------



## Macfury

Have any of you who are concerned about this applied to a U.S. Consulate for a backdated Certificate of Loss of Nationality or renounced U.S. citizenship?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Have any of you who are concerned about this applied to a U.S. Consulate for a backdated Certificate of Loss of Nationality or renounced U.S. citizenship?


You are able to renounce your citizenship, but first would have to pay any back taxes owed before it becomes effective. Thus, this is not a way of getting out of paying taxes.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> First stuff your condescension where the sun don't shine.
> 
> Second I have said everything that I need to say to you on the subject except for one last thing...
> 
> I really have no sympathy for those who have undoubtedly benefited from their dual citizenship over the years and who should know full well that the US is the only country in the world that bases its taxation on citizenship, not residency and now they are going to cry foul and moan about the fact that they have to fill out a few forms to be compliant.
> 
> It really does make me wonder what you have to hide, as you have never answered my repeated very direct questions about how it affects you directly beyond having to fill out said forms.
> 
> So that being said I am done with you on this subject as for the most part all you have said is with your tinfoil hat on and I really no longer have the patience for that kind of conspiracy theory gobbledygook clap trap.


Since you were clearly dodging the questions I thought it best to limit it to one question at a time. Not condescending simply the only way to try to get you to actually answer the question. Sorry that I failed since if you were actually being straight it would indeed have been incredibly valuable information that should be shared.

Any ways this last dodge is a pretty clear indicator that your Con talking point was indeed deliberately and dangerously deceptive and that you were well aware of that, but of course are not allowed stray from the talking points.

Since the Con government has enabled this huge extortion racket, I can see why you have no sympathy. Again all of the money the US hopes to collect is via those completely immoral information forms, there are no taxes owed.

Do recall your post when the US tells Canada that it must aid them in collecting those penalties and recall it again as you watch the US bleed 50 or even 100 Billion dollars from Canadian taxpayers. Taxpayers who do not owe the IRS a dime in taxes. 

Recall it one more time as CanAm voters turn their backs on the Cons come the next election. The Cons thrive on fear tactics and clearly the Cons are the party CanAm taxpayers will fear the most come the next election.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Have any of you who are concerned about this applied to a U.S. Consulate for a backdated Certificate of Loss of Nationality or renounced U.S. citizenship?


I have been following several sites on this. MOst who have done guess that between 5000 and 10,000 Canadian Americans will relinquish or renounce their citizenship this year. With ten thousand probably being the absolute maximum the combined US consular staff can handle in one year. Of course individuals who do this can no longer work or live in the US.

Unfortunately the US border patrol over the past ten years has brow beat a large number of Canadians of US birth into getting passports and SS numbers by telling them that they have to have a US passport to enter the US, this includes individuals who renounced their citizenship in the 60s and 70s to become Canadian citizens. In the eyes of the US obtaining that passport is exercising the privileges of their US citizenship. To those who had already renounced their citizenship, discovering that they are once again Americans for the purposes of extortion is a cruel blow indeed. The consulates have been reasonably understanding on this issue and will sometimes issue back dated relinquishments. It is by no means a sure thing, with Vancouver and the Ottawa Embassy seemingly being the most belligerent.

As Dr. G. says most Canadian Americans are not so lucky and must still be tax compliant, which for many has meant paying huge F(u)BAR, 8891 and 3520 penalties even though they owe no taxes. As I mentioned in earlier posts for the 95% of CanAms who were unaware they should be filing taxes and extortion forms it also means paying at least $5000 and more likely $10,000 in cross border tax consultant fees.

As an aside:
So far I have limited it to what almost every CanAm either has already been dealing with over the years, or if not, is now facing a serious financial mugging.

I have been carefully avoiding mentioning the 100,000 or so CanAms who are in business for themselves. I would have to guess that about 0% of them are aware they have to serve two tax masters. Believe me I looked into the possibility 20 years ago and quickly realized it would be completely impossible to meet IRS requirements and run a business. Figure most of these individuals may end up on the hook for $100,000 or more. Some of that to pay Social Security premiums even though they have been paying into CPP all along. Canadian partners who share signing privileges on business bank accounts, will find those accounts are at extreme risk.

Some charity bank accounts could also be at risk if one of the signers is CanAM and failed to file F(u)BARS and possibly 8938s on those accounts.

The sad thing is that we are talking about money earned in Canada and taxed in Canada. Yet the Canadian Governments attitude, as so eloquently expressed by Screature is: 'Too bad, you should have known that Cons can't be trusted.' I and another million or so Canadians will remember that snub come the next election.


----------



## groovetube

Interesting...
Canada Post should deliver on postal banking | Toronto Star



> *Canada itself once had a postal bank, which was eliminated under pressure from the banking lobby in 1968.* The basic idea, as laid out in a CCPA report titled Why Canada Needs Postal Banking, is quite simple.


Ah, there we go.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Interesting...
> Canada Post should deliver on postal banking | Toronto Star
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, there we go.


Where we go?

'tube do you believe that Canada Post should be in the banking business, yes or no?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Where we go?
> 
> 'tube do you believe that Canada Post should be in the banking business, yes or no?


I can give you a 100% yes on that because I'm not sure.

However it sounds like you may be sure it's not a good idea, so assuming you've read the article and it's reasons why it may be a good idea, why would it not be?


----------



## eMacMan

If a post office bank were set up in such a way that the banking arm did not hold any US assets and was therefore immune to IRS the extortion racket, they could land a couple of million CanAm accounts in a heart beat.

Obviously the FATCA fiasco has clearly indicated that the Government of Canada is owned by the banking lobby so I really don't see the Post Office being permitted to take that direction.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I can give you a 100% yes on that because I'm not sure.
> 
> However it sounds like you may be sure it's not a good idea, so assuming you've read the article and it's reasons why it may be a good idea, why would it not be?


Let's hear your pros and cons first, then I'll let you know if I agree.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Let's hear your pros and cons first, then I'll let you know if I agree.


Macfury, I already said that I wasn't sure, in response to your question. What I know, is from the article. I found it interesting, that we had this in the 60s, until the banks lobbied to get rid of it. I can only assume, they didn't like the competition.

So, if you have something more, even a link to more info, an opinion different than what I linked to, let's hear it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Macfury, I already said that I wasn't sure, in response to your question. What I know, is from the article. I found it interesting, that we had this in the 60s, until the banks lobbied to get rid of it. I can only assume, they didn't like the competition.
> 
> So, if you have something more, even a link to more info, an opinion different than what I linked to, let's hear it.


On that point, deposits had fallen to their lowest point ever at just $17 million in 1969. The bank was not popular, even with all of the advantages stated in the report. The bank was closed not because other banks demanded it, but because those other banks offered a range of services with which Canada Post could not compete. Even then, bank services were offered only at a small number of postal outlets.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> On that point, deposits had fallen to their lowest point ever at just $17 million in 1969. The bank was not popular, even with all of the advantages stated in the report. The bank was closed not because other banks demanded it, but because those other banks offered a range of services with which Canada Post could not compete. Even then, bank services were offered only at a small number of postal outlets.


Do you have a link to this information?

So what you're saying is, the banks lobbying to shut down the service had nothing to do with it. How did you come to this conclusion?

And I assume you think the report saying it's a good idea, and that it works well in other countries is completely incorrect?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Do you have a link to this information?


It's in the Policy Alternatives Report. Also, the attached article.



groovetube said:


> So what you're saying is, the banks lobbying to shut down the service had nothing to do with it. How did you come to this conclusion?


There is no evidence supplied in the Policy Alternatives Report.



groovetube said:


> And I assume you think the report saying it's a good idea, and that it works well in other countries is completely incorrect?


I think that if you have a continuing bank presence over a long period of time, it's possible to make a profit in the right market. However, Canada was clearly not that market when the offices closed.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's in the Policy Alternatives Report. Also, the attached article.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no evidence supplied in the Policy Alternatives Report.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that if you have a continuing bank presence over a long period of time, it's possible to make a profit in the right market. However, Canada was clearly not that market when the offices closed.


That's quite an assumption macfury, as it stated in the article that the savings decreased after they announced the decision to shut down operations. Just because the postie head said the service was no longer possible because of all the services banks began offering in 1968, doesn't nessecarily make it so. We are witnessing a similar jackass now in canada post making comments that suggest seniors might get a bit of exercise to the new post boxes now.

Also back in 68 people are probably not getting quite as gouged with fees as we are now, and the market has changed drastically since 1968. More entities are offering financial services (supermarkets for one...) so that suggests that assuming the market is the same as it was in 1968 is foolish, since now other companies besides the actual banks themselves offering discount banking services and doing so well.

So I have no idea where or how you can make such an assumption that Canada 'is clearly not the market' today for such offerings.

You haven't made a very good case for why they shouldn't.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> That's quite an assumption macfury, as it stated in the article that the savings decreased after they announced the decision to shut down operations.


Read it again. The $17 million was before they announced the bank's closure.They encouraged accountholders to withdraw their savings, but there was still $6 million in dormant accounts there--the people had died or forgotten the money.



groovetube said:


> Just because the postie head said the service was no longer possible because of all the services banks began offering in 1968, doesn't nessecarily make it so. We are witnessing a similar jackass now in canada post making comments that suggest seniors might get a bit of exercise to the new post boxes now.


You made the claim that competitor banks had Canada Post's paltry $17-million savings empire shut down. Show me the money. What's your proof?



groovetube said:


> Also back in 68 people are probably not getting quite as gouged with fees as we are now, and the market has changed drastically since 1968. More entities are offering financial services (supermarkets for one...) so that suggests that assuming the market is the same as it was in 1968 is foolish, since now other companies besides the actual banks themselves offering discount banking services and doing so well.


In 1968 they offered crap hours, few services and low interest rates on savings. 

However, the fact that so many entities are now offering banking service is a reason why I don't believe Canada Post could succeed. They lose whenever they face any competition--that's why they have put a stranglehold on residential mail delivery. Canada Post is not even able to operate its core business successfully, while holding a monopoly in that service.

With a massive move to online banking and direct deposit, having a large number of postal outlets across the country with poor hours and no weekend service is not much of an advantage.



groovetube said:


> So I have no idea where or how you can make such an assumption that Canada 'is clearly not the market' today for such offerings.


I said that it had lost its market by 1968.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Read it again. The $17 million was before they announced the bank's closure.They encouraged accountholders to withdraw their savings, but there was still $6 million in dormant accounts there--the people had died or forgotten the money.


The article did not say it was before, it said at the time the decision was announced.



Macfury said:


> You made the claim that competitor banks had Canada Post's paltry $17-million savings empire shut down. Show me the money. What's your proof?


No I didn't the article I linked to said the banks lobbied to shut it down. Here in case you missed it:


> Canada itself once had a postal bank, *which was eliminated under pressure from the banking lobby in 1968.*


Interesting since the Canada post banking service was so miniscule... :lmao:



Macfury said:


> In 1968 they offered crap hours, few services and low interest rates on savings.


It was 1968! Most banks offered crappy hours and did for some time, there were no ATMs, no online banking, and banks open late and on weekends.



Macfury said:


> However, the fact that so many entities are now offering banking service is a reason why I don't believe Canada Post could succeed. They lose whenever they face any competition--that's why they have put a stranglehold on residential mail delivery. Canada Post is not even able to operate its core business successfully, while holding a monopoly in that service.
> 
> With a massive move to online banking and direct deposit, having a large number of postal outlets across the country with poor hours and no weekend service is not much of an advantage.



Why have you assumed Canada Post wouldn't offer online banking?? They offer plenty already online...

Sounds like you made a whole lot of assumptions macfury, with zero to back it up.



Macfury said:


> I said that it had lost its market by 1968.


No, you've declared that Canada Post offering this service in 2014 is no better than it would be in 1968, that Canada Post couldn't possibly compete in today's market.

Again from the article:


> In an exclusive report, parliamentary news site Blacklock’s Reporter disclosed last week that Canada Post spent the better part of four years conducting research, polling and focus group studies, all of which concluded that the Crown corporation “could profitably launch the largest banking network in the country.”
> One management report, entitled Banking: A Proven Diversification Strategy, concluded that offering public banking services through post offices would be a “win-win strategy.”


How much research have you done??


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> The article did not say it was before, it said at the time the decision was announced.


Yes, at the time the decision was announced, there was $17 million in total in deposits. Get it straight.



groovetube said:


> No I didn't the article I linked to said the banks lobbied to shut it down. Here in case you missed it:


That's what the article claims is in the Policy Alternatives report. It isn't. Again, what is your proof?



groovetube said:


> It was 1968! Most banks offered crappy hours and did for some time, there were no ATMs, no online banking, and banks open late and on weekends.


That's what I said. This is why fees were not an issue in 1968.



groovetube said:


> Why have you assumed Canada Post wouldn't offer online banking?? They offer plenty already online...


I didn't assume that they would not offer online banking. I said that the report indicated that the strength of a Canada Post bank was that it offered so many outlets across the country. With online banking, who would need to visit one of these outlets?

Without that advantage, what would compel Canada Post to believe that it could succeed as a bank?



groovetube said:


> ..you've declared that Canada Post offering this service in 2014 is no better than it would be in 1968, that Canada Post couldn't possibly compete in today's market.


Wrong again. I maintain that offering this service in 2014 would be a bigger anachronism than offering it in 1968, regardless of what level of online service is being offered. If Canada Post can't break even maintaining a monopoly in letter carrying, how can it succeed in a market saturated with competitors who have years of experience?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yes, at the time the decision was announced, there was $17 million in total in deposits. Get it straight.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what the article claims is in the Policy Alternatives report. It isn't. Again, what is your proof?
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I said. This is why fees were not an issue in 1968.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't assume that they would not offer online banking. I said that the report indicated that the strength of a Canada Post bank was that it offered so many outlets across the country. With online banking, who would need to visit one of these outlets?
> 
> Without that advantage, what would compel Canada Post to believe that it could succeed as a bank?
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again. *I maintain that offering this service in 2014 would be a bigger anachronism than offering it in 1968, regardless of what level of online service is being offered.* If Canada Post can't break even maintaining a monopoly in letter carrying, how can it succeed in a market saturated with competitors who have years of experience?


YOU maintain. But you've offered absolutely nothing to back it up Macfury. Nothing, but you're personal opinion.

An anonymous forum poster, with an opinion, means squat. Sorry.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> YOU maintain. But you've offered absolutely nothing to back it up Macfury. Nothing, but you're personal opinion.
> 
> An anonymous forum poster, with an opinion, means squat. Sorry.


More intellectual laziness from you. You didn't even read the report on which the article was based. Thank you for your... link? Clearly you have done no research at all. Your expression of idle curiosity is not a virtue.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> More intellectual laziness from you. You didn't even read the report on which the article was based. Thank you for your... link? Clearly you have done no research at all. Your expression of idle curiosity is not a virtue.


You're just annoyed because I called you out on your lack of anything to stand on Macfury. Remember you were the one that maintained it's not feasible to be successful here, not me. A curiosity framed as 'intellectual laziness'? Really?

You're questioning that the banking lobby lobbied to shut the service down, but haven't given a shred to show why. It's been referred to by many sources, a quick google search turns that up. And we're to believe an anonymous forum poster, simply because you said so?

And you've provided absolutely nothing to argue why the report would be completely wrong. Nothing.

I'm not required to stake a stand on this, and I stated so right off the top. So don't get annoyed when I ask you to give a little more than an anonymous forum poster's opinion.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> You're questioning that the banking lobby lobbied to shut the service down, but haven't given a shred to show why.


The report doesn't say that at all. But go ahead and prove me wrong--show me the efforts that were made by the banks to lobby this failing postal bank into closing. I imagine further intellectual laziness will follow... but surprise me.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The report doesn't say that at all. But go ahead and prove me wrong--show me the efforts that were made by the banks to lobby this failing postal bank into closing. I imagine further intellectual laziness will follow... but surprise me.


Macfury, I've already handed you the quote that the baking lobby lobbied to shut it down already. If you weren't so lazy you'd find this info in many other places as well, which is easily found.

I don't have anything to prove here, you do. Let's recap...

You are saying the banking lobby's efforts didn't have much to do with it. Well prove it!

You have maintained that Canada Post offering this service would be a failure.

Give us SOMETHING that even remotely backs this up other than some feeble excuse about it declining in a market drastically different than now 50 years ago.

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't expect me to take it seriously without anything credible behind it.

I couldn't know if it'll be successful. But you seem convinced it won't.


----------



## Macfury

Congratulations, professor, that required a lot of research on your part.

If it's so easily found, tell me how the banks lobbied for its closure in 1968. Should only take you a couple of seconds. 



groovetube said:


> Macfury, I've already handed you the quote that the baking lobby lobbied to shut it down already. If you weren't so lazy you'd find this info in many other places as well, which is easily found.


----------



## groovetube

I'll give you props Macfury for trying, but I don't have to prove a damn thing, you're the one making baseless claims.

That's fine if that's where it is Macfury. Women's hockey just won gold, and it's balmy out there. It'll all be ok.


----------



## Macfury

I'm happy to leave it at the point where you've been brought low. I would have been shocked if it had ended any other way.



groovetube said:


> I'll give you props Macfury for trying, but I don't have to prove a damn thing, you're the one making baseless claims.
> 
> That's fine if that's where it is Macfury. Women's hockey just won gold, and it's balmy out there. It'll all be ok.


----------



## groovetube

ok Macfury. 

It is indeed, a new low when someone who has an interest in something, asks someone why they are so insistent it's all wrong.

A new low!!!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> An anonymous forum poster, with an opinion, means squat. Sorry.


Oh, the iron...


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> If a post office bank were set up in such a way that the banking arm did not hold any US assets and was therefore immune to IRS the extortion racket, they could land a couple of million CanAm accounts in a heart beat.
> 
> Obviously the FATCA fiasco has clearly indicated that the Government of Canada is owned by the banking lobby so I really don't see the Post Office being permitted to take that direction.


 A quick question if I may. Would a Provincially regulated Credit Union be exempt from IRS scrutiny of FATCA?


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> A quick question if I may. Would a Provincially regulated Credit Union be exempt from IRS scrutiny of FATCA?


Interesting question, BigDL. I would think that the IRS would want any and all info re Americans regardless of what sort of institution holds these accounts. This is why accountants are warning Americans not to try and transfer their assets to their non-American spouses/children/relatives, since this just includes them in the net.


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> A quick question if I may. Would a Provincially regulated Credit Union be exempt from IRS scrutiny of FATCA?


Yes and no. If it small enough and has no US assets I believe they are currently exempt. However the US taxpayer is still required to fill all of this in at least the F(u)BAR and probably other extortion based "information" forms as well. So their account history is still in that IRS data base and by extension NSA, HSA, FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF ............. databases as well.



The best advice for any Americans moving to Canada today is as follows:

Maintain your American bank account. Maintain only a single Canadian chequing account and have it only in your name. Keep the balance at all times well under $10,000 USD. Any time it gets close to that max, transfer money to your US account.

Do not under any circumstances be tempted to open an RRSP, RESP, TFSA or any similar account.

If your spouse is not an American citizen, do not under any circumstances open any joint accounts. It would be best if they name a trusted family as beneficiary, that way if something does happen that family member can gradually transfer the funds to you in such a way as to allow you to get them into your US account without raising your Canadian accounts over the $10,000 F(u)BAR threshold.

If your spouse is a green card holder immediately visit a US consulate and have them give up that green card, other wise the IRS will consider them fair game as well. Do this even if you are thinking you will return to the US. In one year her green card status will be automatically revoked but the IRS will consider it proof that she is still a US person for tax purposes.

Despite the fact that you can't change back do not under any circumstance file jointly on your 1040. Again this leaves your spouse vulnerable to IRS extortion attacks via F(u)BARs...... Filing separately does mean that most of your Social Security earnings will be taxable, however at that point in time you can legally separate, and your SS earnings will then fall under normal tax law.

Never under any circumstance go into business for yourself.

I would go even further and strongly suggest that Immigration Canada issue the above advisory to anyone from the US who applies for PR status.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sounds like good advice, eMacMan. My one saving grace is that I have no income, holdings, property, assets, dealings, connections with the US anymore, other than being born and raised there.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Sounds like good advice, eMacMan. My one saving grace is that I have no income, holdings, property, assets, dealings, connections with the US anymore, other than being born and raised there.


In that we are the same. How terribly sad that my citizenship which I once held with such pride became a twenty ton anchor around my neck. I now consider myself to be only Canadian, though I am also greatly saddened by Ottawa's betrayal of over a million fellow American expats.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> In that we are the same. How terribly sad that my citizenship which I once viewed with such pride became an anchor around my neck. I now consider myself to be only Canadian, though I am also greatly saddened by Ottawa's betrayal of over a million fellow American expats.


I would hate not to be able to go back to the US, but if for some reason they feel I still owe them money, that is what I shall not do anymore. We shall see.

Amazing, but I filed all my back taxes over a year ago and have heard not a word from the IRS.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I would hate not to be able to go back to the US, but if for some reason they feel I still owe them money, that is what I shall not do anymore. We shall see.
> 
> Amazing, but I filed all my back taxes over a year ago and have heard not a word from the IRS.


From the sites I have been following typical response time has been about two years. Usually they then confirm that indeed you owe them nothing in taxes but they are assessing you somewhere around $100,000 on those missing information forms. Those that choose to fight typically waste another year or two, have the IRS hand them all sorts of impossible deadlines to pass along various account info. Somewhere about three or four years into the process, the victim finally gets the IRS ombudsman to intervene and the penalties are reduced to a somewhat affordable level say $20,000. 

It is of course an extortion scam pure and simple. A crime that Flaherty chose to enable it. 

BTW if you have not looked into 2013 taxes as yet, the F(u)BAR now has to be filed electronically, I have heard this only works on Windoze boxes. Now instead of going to Treasury it goes to the IRS FinCEN division. FinCEN stands for Financial Criminal Enforcement Network. So essentially Americans living abroad are being branded criminals.

Probably not at all a coincidence that Enforcement is also Mafia speak for Extortion.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> From the sites I have been following typical response time has been about two years. Usually they then confirm that indeed you owe them nothing in taxes but they are assessing you somewhere around $100,000 on those missing information forms. Those that choose to fight typically waste another year or two, have the IRS hand them all sorts of impossible deadlines to pass along various account info. Somewhere about three or four years into the process, the victim finally gets the IRS ombudsman to intervene and the penalties are reduced to a somewhat affordable level say $20,000.
> 
> It is of course an extortion scam pure and simple. A crime that Flaherty chose to enable it.
> 
> BTW if you have not looked into 2013 taxes as yet, the F(u)BAR now has to be filed electronically, I have heard this only works on Windoze boxes. Now instead of going to Treasury it goes to the IRS FinCEN division. FinCEN stands for Financial Criminal Enforcement Network. So essentially Americans living abroad are being branded criminals.
> 
> Probably not at all a coincidence that Enforcement is also Mafia speak for Extortion.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Let's go one at a time rather than risk confusing you. I have no doubt that Flaherty did everything he could to protect the banks and serve his US masters. My questions are entirely related to the million+ Canadians this agreement throws under the IRS juggernaut.
> 
> *So let's address just the bit about banks not having to report RESPs, RRSPs..... That is the prescribed Con talking point and while technically accurate it is also misleading. It implies these accounts will not be reported, which is extremely dangerous mis-information. The CRA has that information. Flaherty has committed the CRA to sharing financial information with the IRS. Therefore they will be reported to the IRS.*
> 
> Anyone that is filing US taxes currently has to report these accounts on at least one and probably more of the IRS information forms mentioned. The same forms whose only known purpose is extortion. Missing or making a mistake on just one of these forms can cost the taxpayer their life savings, even if they do not owe a dime in taxes.
> 
> *So, if the agreement does, as you have implied, change the current requirements for American taxpayers living in Canada and eliminates the need for them to report these accounts on their 1040s, F(u)BARS, 8938s, 8891s and/or 3520s; please, please, please, please, please; cite the basis for that statement.
> *


You obviously haven't read the agreement. From the agreement itself p. 45 -47:

Intergovernmental Agreement for the Enhanced Exchange of Tax Information under the Canada-U.S. Tax Convention 

Let's see if you can follow along and don't become confused. beejacon



> *IV. Accounts Excluded from Financial Accounts
> The following accounts and products established in Canada and maintained by a Canadian Financial Institution shall be treated as excluded from the definition of Financial Accounts, and therefore shall not be treated as U.S. Reportable Accounts under the Agreement:*
> 
> A. Registered Retirement Savings Plans (RRSPs) – as defined in subsection 146(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> B. Registered Retirement Income Funds (RRIFs) – as defined in subsection 146.3(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> C. Pooled Registered Pension Plans (PRPPs) – as defined in subsection 147.5(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> D. Registered Pension Plans (RPPs) – as defined in subsection 248(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> E. Tax-Free Savings Accounts (TFSAs) – as defined in subsection 146.2(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> Page 46 of 47
> F. Registered Disability Savings Plans (RDSPs) – as defined in subsection 146.4(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> G. Registered Education Savings Plans (RESPs) – as defined in subsection 146.1(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> H. Deferred Profit Sharing Plans (DPSPs) – as defined in subsection 147(1) of the Income Tax Act.
> I. AgriInvest accounts – as defined under “NISA Fund No. 2” and “net income stabilization account” in subsection 248(1) of the Income Tax Act including Quebec’s Agri-Quebec program as prescribed in section 5503 of the Income Tax Regulations.
> J. Eligible Funeral Arrangements – as defined under subsection 148.1 of the Income Tax Act.
> K. Escrow Accounts. An account maintained in Canada established in connection with any of the following:
> 1. A court order or judgment.
> 2. A sale, exchange, or lease of real or immovable property or of personal or movable property, provided that the account satisfies the following requirements:
> a. The account is funded solely with a down payment, earnest money, deposit in an amount appropriate to secure an obligation directly related to the transaction, or a similar payment, or is funded with a financial asset that is deposited in the account in connection with the sale, exchange, or lease of the property;
> b. The account is established and used solely to secure the obligation of the purchaser to pay the purchase price for the property, the seller to pay any contingent liability, or the lessor or lessee to pay for any damages relating to the leased property as agreed under the lease;
> c. The assets of the account, including the income earned thereon, will be paid or otherwise distributed for the benefit of the purchaser, seller, lessor, or lessee (including to satisfy such person’s obligation) when the property is sold, exchanged, or surrendered, or the lease terminates;
> d. The account is not a margin or similar account established in connection with a sale or exchange of a financial asset; and
> Page 47 of 47
> e. The account is not associated with a credit card account.
> 3. An obligation of a Financial Institution servicing a loan secured by real or immovable property to set aside a portion of a payment solely to facilitate the payment of taxes or insurance related to the real or immovable property at a later time.
> 4. An obligation of a Financial Institution solely to facilitate the payment of taxes at a later time.
> L. An account maintained in Canada and excluded from the definition of Financial Account under an agreement between the United States and another Partner Jurisdiction to facilitate the implementation of FATCA, provided that such account is subject to the same requirements and oversight under the laws of such other Partner Jurisdiction as if such account were established in that Partner Jurisdiction and maintained by a Partner Jurisdiction Financial Institution in that Partner Jurisdiction.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> A quick question if I may. Would a Provincially regulated Credit Union be exempt from IRS scrutiny of FATCA?





Dr.G. said:


> Interesting question, BigDL. I would think that the IRS would want any and all info re Americans regardless of what sort of institution holds these accounts. This is why accountants are warning Americans not to try and transfer their assets to their non-American spouses/children/relatives, since this just includes them in the net.


Smaller deposit-taking institutions, such as credit unions, with assets of less than $175 million will be exempt:



> *III. Deemed-Compliant Financial Institutions*
> The following Financial Institutions are Non-Reporting Canadian Financial Institutions that shall be treated as deemed-compliant FFIs for the purposes of section 1471 of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code.
> 
> Local Bank. A Financial Institution that qualifies as a nonregistering local bank as described in relevant U.S. Treasury regulations, using the following definitions where applicable:
> 
> 1. The term “bank” shall include any Depository Institution to which the Bank Act or the Trust and Loan Companies Act applies, or which is a trust or loan company regulated by a provincial Act; and
> 
> 2. The term “credit union or similar cooperative credit organization that is operated without profit” shall include any credit union or similar cooperative credit organization that is entitled to tax-favored treatment with respect to distributions to its members under Canadian law, including any credit union as defined in subsection 137(6) of the Income Tax Act.


Here’s the definition of a nonregistering local bank as described by the U.S. Treasury: 



> To qualify as a nonregistering local bank, generally, a bank must offer basic banking services, operate solely in its country of incorporation (or if it is a member of an expanded affiliated group, all members must operate in the same country), and the assets on each member FFI’s balance sheet must be no more than $175 million (pg. 63 of “Regulations Relating to Information Reporting by Foreign Financial Institutions and Withholding on Certain Payments to Foreign Financial Institutions and Other Foreign Entities”


 http://www.irs.gov/pub/newsroom/reg-121647-10.pdf )


----------



## eMacMan

Marc.

Screatures citation clearly indicates that Financial institutions and more importantly the CRA will not be reporting RRSPs and so on. 

Still not 100% clear that the term "Reportable account" also extends to individuals, as this is essentially an agreement between the government of Canada and the IRS and the Flaherty teams major concern was clearly to protect the banks.

If it does include individuals it could make a significant difference to those Canadians who did file but did not include RRSPs as they were supposedly exempt by treaty, failed to discover the extremely obscure 8891, or did not include RRSPs in deciding whether they had enough savings to require 8938s.

Could also reduce the damage to the 95% of CanAms who were completely unaware that the US required them to file tax and extortion forms.


----------



## eMacMan

> To qualify as a nonregistering local bank, generally, a bank must offer basic banking services, operate solely in its country of incorporation (or if it is a member of an expanded affiliated group, all members must operate in the same country), and the assets on each member FFI’s balance sheet must be no more than $175 million (pg. 63 of “Regulations Relating to Information Reporting by Foreign Financial Institutions and Withholding on Certain Payments to Foreign Financial Institutions and Other Foreign Entities”


I wonder what this means for a credit union in a small town that is a branch of a much larger credit union.

If the Credit union itself is Canadian owned, is it the local branch that needs to be under $175 million or the entire group? 

Obviously if the Credit union operates solely in Canada, the IRS would not be able to force it to freeze or close customers accounts.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> I wonder what this means for a credit union in a small town that is a branch of a much larger credit union.
> 
> If the Credit union itself is Canadian owned, is it the local branch that needs to be under $175 million or the entire group?
> 
> Obviously if the Credit union operates solely in Canada, the IRS would not be able to force it to freeze or close customers accounts.


The larger organization to which all local Credit Unions are affiliated is the "Provincial League" in the case of New Brunswick it belongs is the "Atlantic League of Credit Unions" serving the four Atlantic Provinces.

I have a "Global Payment" card from my Credit Union which is a hybrid of a debit and a credit card with Master Card holding the credit card portion of the "Global Payment" card which is "owned" by a US financial institution.

So it may an interesting journey to find out the connections in the financial web of a Provincially regulated institution.

As an aside the TD Bank operates its branch system of banking under the banner of TD Trust. Trust companies are also provincially regulated (this probably why TD has the extended hours of service) organizations and operate under a different regulatory system than the Chartered Banks.

The old "is it a Provincial or Federal responsibility?" question. It seems Credit Unions are both according to this wiki


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> The larger organization to which all local Credit Unions are affiliated is the "Provincial League" in the case of New Brunswick it belongs is the "Atlantic League of Credit Unions" serving the four Atlantic Provinces.
> 
> I have a "Global Payment" card from my Credit Union which is a hybrid of a debit and a credit card with Master Card holding the credit card portion of the "Global Payment" card which is "owned" by a US financial institution.
> 
> So it may an interesting journey to find out the connections in the financial web of a Provincially regulated institution.
> 
> As an aside the TD Bank operates its branch system of banking under the banner of TD Trust. Trust companies are also provincially regulated (this probably why TD has the extended hours of service) organizations and operate under a different regulatory system than the Chartered Banks.


TD like all the big 5 has US branches making them very vulnerable to pressure from the IRS.

I have heard of two cases where TD has frozen Canadian investment accounts of people it has found out were Americans. This even though FATCA regs do not take effect till July 1. 

These things are very hard to follow and victims do not always post when they manage to resolve that kind of issue, so I cannot say whether or not those ever were straightened out.


----------



## screature

*What a joke*

Tories acting like jilted lovers: Leslie


The reason why the conservatives are attacking him is because he spent $72,000 to move a few blocks. Cut and dry.

If the shoe were on the other foot the Liberals would be screaming foul to high heaven. 

The hypocrisy is astounding... but then again, not so much...

Same as it ever was...

Except that with JT as PM we would have a dolt party puppet at the helm.

Doh!! 

I thought that is what the left thought of Regan in the US! 

Critics either way are probably both correct but I really do have some doubt about the "brain trust" propping up JT, despite the CBC's attempt to make them seem more credible than they actually are...

The biggest sham in Canadian history will be that the Canadian public gets duped into believing that they are voting for anything new by voting for JT... it is just the same old tired Liberal party of old, except for some new fresh paint, on a pretty new face.

I would hope that Canadians could see through such a blatant disguise, but recent polls seem to indicate otherwise, hopefully as we get closer to an election and substance actually matters (like in the 3rd period of a hockey game in the Olympics) substance will win out over show just like the Canadians did over the US today.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> You are able to renounce your citizenship, but first would have to pay any back taxes owed before it becomes effective. Thus, this is not a way of getting out of paying taxes.


And that is how it should be... if you believe that your taxes are paying for the "greater" good.

Why would one want to shirk their social responsibility in favour of their personal benefit?


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> And that is how it should be... if you believe that your taxes are paying for the "greater" good.
> 
> Why would one want to shirk their social responsibility in favour of their personal benefit?


A valid point, screature, which is why I have no intention of renouncing my citizenship. I file my tax returns, owe no taxes to the US ............... and hope that they feel that this is enough. If they come after my RRSP for some reason, I shall just not travel to the US anymore. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> And that is how it should be... if you believe that your taxes are paying for the "greater" good.
> 
> Why would one want to shirk their social responsibility in favour of their personal benefit?


I think the reason why this was brought up was because macfury threw it out there as a solution for those worried about the tax woes presented by this new agreement.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> And that is how it should be... if you believe that your taxes are paying for the "greater" good.
> 
> Why would one want to shirk their social responsibility in favour of their personal benefit?


*
Again and again and again it has nothing to do with taxes.* The vast majority of Americans living in Canada owe the IRS exactly nothing in taxes whether or not they have been filing. Were it only the taxes there would not be a problem. Nor would anyone feel the need to give up their citizenship.

The IRS has woven a huge web of "information forms" that apply almost exclusively to Americans living abroad. These have nothing to do with taxes, but the penalties for not filling out the forms or making an error on them are Draconian. One error and the IRS can bankrupt you. Some of these forms are very obscure (8911, 3520), others reasonably well known but impossible to decipher (8938). 

The entire purpose of the IGA is to give the IRS the data it needs to maximize the extortion.

To give you some idea the IRS claims to have collected around 11 Billion in back taxes through the OVDP program. It turns out that almost all of that is in penalties on the extortion forms. One very typical example: $17 in taxes owed, $20,000 in F(u)BAR penalties. 

This is deliberate, extremely organized, criminal extortion pure and simple. Moreover it is diametrically opposed to the very values which Americans were taught form birth to believe. It is clearly taxation without representation. No-one in Congress represents Americans living abroad. Also a clear violation of the 4th and 8th Amendments of the US Constitution.

The crime here is that the cons have chosen to enable the biggest extortion racket ever, and at the expense of the Canadian Charter of Rights. For there is no way Canada can live up to its FATCA obligations without treating Canadians of American heritage differently than all other Canadians. The only way not to violate the Charter is for Canada to pass along the complete financial history of all Canadians to the IRS, NSA........................


----------



## Macfury

It seems that the hierarchy of anger here is:

1. Conservatives/Stephen Harper
2. CRA
3. The IRS
4. President Obama who fathered this effort

I would think the anger would be completely in reverse.


----------



## groovetube

Really? Well given that we're Canadians and live in Canada, our leader is Harper, and they signed the agreement, I'd say the list is about right.

Unless you feel our government is so ineffectual and powerless that it's just not their fault!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Really? Well given that we're Canadians and live in Canada, our leader is Harper, and they signed the agreement, I'd say the list is about right.
> 
> Unless you feel our government is so ineffectual and powerless that it's just not their fault!


Nonsense. 

We are talking about dual citizens here! 

You know, people who are also US citizens and therefore are subject to their laws, rules and regulations. People who want to have their cake and eat too and want to bitch and moan when their country of origin no longer seems to serve their personal interests all the while expecting their adopted country to defend them.... Please forgive me if I have no sympathy. Not to mention we have done our best to defend them (see post #12618)

Does FATCA affect you in any way? No.

It only affects those (despite eMacMan's tinfoil hat rants) who have US citizenship connections. 

Sorry groove IMO your post only serves to illustrate how little you actually know about the subject and how much you buy into eMacMan's FUD.

MacFury is right, and quite frankly eMacMan's posts/rants/FUD more accurately belong in The American Political Thread and not here.

Please try to refrain from talking about things that you really know very little about as it really adds next to nothing to the discussion.


----------



## groovetube

Jeez screature. While they're living here as a Canadian citizen they are subject to OUR rules and laws here. And our leader, is Harper.

That's the way it is, a and I just explained why that may be why the resentment may be directed more towards Harper. You may not agree with it, but that's my lowly opinion.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Jeez screature. While they're living here as a Canadian citizen they are subject to OUR rules and laws here.


They still have obligations shared by all holders of US citizenship that come with accepting its benefits. This is not a matter of opinion.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> We are talking about dual citizens here!
> 
> You know, people who are also US citizens and therefore are subject to their laws, rules and regulations. People who want to have their cake and eat too and want to bitch and moan when their country of origin no longer seems to serve their personal interests all the while expecting their adopted country to defend them.... Please forgive me if I have no sympathy. Not to mention we have done our best to defend them (see post #12618)
> 
> Does FATCA affect you in any way? No.
> 
> It only affects those (despite eMacMan's tinfoil hat rants) who have US citizenship connections.
> 
> *Sorry groove IMO your post only serves to illustrate how little you actually know about the subject and how much you buy into eMacMan's FUD.*
> 
> MacFury is right, and quite frankly eMacMan's posts/rants/FUD more accurately belong in The American Political Thread and not here.
> 
> Please try to refrain from talking about things that you really know very little about as it really adds next to nothing to the discussion.


BS total BS. The IGA says the yanks get to determine who is a US person for tax purposes and that includes a sizable number of people who are Canadians and only Canadian citizens. Whether spouses of Americans or Canadians who happened to hold now invalid green cards the IRS considers them American for the purposes of extortion.

Since we are talking about the cons enabling IRS extortion of Canadian citizens it belongs here and right here.

And one more time it is not about taxes. It is possible for the IRS to extort 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars from Canadians who are not American citizens, never were American citizens and even if they were would not owe the US a dime in taxes.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> They still have obligations shared by all holders of US citizenship that come with accepting its benefits. This is not a matter of opinion.


Sure they do. I think dr. G made that abundantly clear. 

But the concerns, aren't related to this. Despite that you want it to be about that. From what I'm reading from dual citizens, they get that.


----------



## eMacMan

Good to see those personal attacks. When cons know they are way off base they do like to go for the throat.

First off US laws apply in the US whether or not you happen to be a US citizen. Similarly Canadian laws apply in Canada to any one living here or visiting here. The problem occurs when Canada puts US laws ahead of its obligations to its own citizens.

Canada's obligations are to its own laws and citizens. When an American is given a PR card he is told he must obey Canadian laws. To allow the US to force Canada to rewrite Canadian privacy banking laws is obscene. Especially when the re-write is discriminatory towards a subset of Canadian citizens. A clear violation of the Charter of Rights.

While Screatures quoted post clearly indicates that banks and the CRA will not report RRSPs and so on to the IRS it does nothing to assure the privacy of Canadians banking information. Nor does it eliminate the obligation for Americans to report this information to the IRS on its various extortion forms.

More importantly in two years of negotiations the finance minister failed to gain anything over the initial IGA offering. 

Beyond belief is the failure to limit IRS raids to US citizens or to Canadians who have recently resided stateside. Any Canadian who has or ever has had an American SSN or TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number) is potentially at risk, even if they have no US income and have not resided stateside in recent years. Why? Because the IRS defines who is an American and their definition is too liberal by about a million Canadian citizens.

IOW the targets of this massive IRS extortion racket have gained absolutely nothing from the IGA. On the other hand Flaherty did make his banker buds happy and reaffirmed that Harper's loyalty is first to corporate buds, then the USA, with nothing left over for Canadian citizens. 

Dr. G and I have both made it abundantly clear that our issue is not with filing or paying taxes. My objection is that the entire purpose of the IGA is to enable a massive extortion racket. The jackpot has nothing to do with unpaid taxes. It's those info form penalties which have the IRS drooling.

Good American friend of mine recently stated: "I know how the wealthy Jews must have felt in pre-war Germany, except I am not Jewish and only the IRS thinks I am wealthy." His feelings are reflected in comments on numerous websites that have come into being entirely because of FATCA.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> BS total BS. The IGA says the yanks get to determine who is a US person for tax purposes and that includes a sizable number of people who are Canadians and only Canadian citizens. Whether spouses of Americans or Canadians who happened to hold now invalid green cards the IRS considers them American for the purposes of extortion.
> *
> Since we are talking about the cons enabling IRS extortion of Canadian citizens it belongs here and right here.
> 
> And one more time it is not about taxes. It is possible for the IRS to extort 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars from Canadians who are not American citizens, never were American citizens and even if they were would not owe the US a dime in taxes*.


No we are not. That is all in your head. We are talking about an information sharing agreement on US persons who live in Canada... although they may be also Canadian citizens.

IMO there should be no such thing as dual citizenship. Divided loyalties are not a good thing.

Oh and BTW why is it exactly that Obama gets a pass on FATCA when he is it's father?

All you ever do is bitch and moan about the Canadian government's involvement when they were threatened with a unilateral 30% withholding tax on Canadian Banks doing business in the US but never one word of against the progenitor of FATCA, which is the US government.

You keep harping the IRS, the IRS evil evil, but they only implement government policy laws and regulations.

Macfury is completely correct. You have your order of anger turned completely upside down.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> IMO there should be no such thing as dual citizenship. Divided loyalties are not a good thing.


On that we agree. 



> Oh and BTW why is it exactly that Obama gets a pass on FATCA when he is it's father?


No pass. This is the Canadian political thread. FATCAs intent is clear. Extortion via the info forms. If taxes were the issue, the only information the IRS would require is interest or dividends on financial accounts. Information it already receives under current treaties.

FWIW I have expressed my anger at Obama who snuck the legislation through on an omnibus bill and at most members of Congress who remain completely unaware of its existence despite having voted for it. I do so on American sites in the vain hope that somewhere along the line it will trickle up to the puppets in charge.

To be fair this is a long term attack that began before BO was president. He simply enacted the jaws of the trap. The info forms, with the extortion penalties were already in place when he took office.



> All you ever do is bitch and moan about the Canadian government's involvement when they were threatened with a unilateral 30% withholding tax on Canadian Banks doing business in the US but never one word of against the progenitor of FATCA, which is the US government.


Exactly give in to a bully and extortionist once, and when they come calling to help collect that $25 or $50 or $100 Billion dollar jackpot, Harper having established the precedent will collapse again. 

This was a monumental bluff, enforcing those levies would have hurt the US as much or more than it hurt Canada. Without Canada's active aid the entire mess would have collapsed. It was also contrary to more than one international treaty which both the US and Canada have signed.

More importantly this clearly establishes, that as far as the IRS is concerned American law takes precedence over Canadian law. What happens when Canadian banks with US branches are told they have to place their obligations under American law, above their Canadian legal obligations and turn Canadian accounts over to the IRS? The precedent has been set and it is one that is not favourable to Canadians.

As to the American Government see above.

Still very deliberately dodging the issue of Harper turning the IRS dogs loose on 100% Canadian citizens. I would have thought in two years of negotiations the Harper government could have accomplished at least that much for Canadians.


----------



## FeXL

If it quacks like a duck...

In Any Form



> Last month Justin Trudeau removed all Liberal senators from the party caucus and vowed to Canadians that "these senators will no longer be Liberal organizers, fundraisers, activists in any form."
> 
> As it turns out, former Liberal senators will no longer act as fundraisers for the LPC unless it's for the specific purpose of fundraising for the LPC


Yep...


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Exactly give in to a bully and extortionist once, and when they come calling to help collect that $25 or $50 or $100 Billion dollar jackpot, Harper having established the precedent will collapse again.


Be honest. How likely do you think any federal government would be to allow $100 billion in penalty payments to leave the country?


----------



## SINC

Trudeau continues to prove that he is not the person to lead the Liberals or any other party. He will slowly destroy the party and sink it back into oblivion again before the next election and that is fine with most conservative thinking voters.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Trudeau continues to prove that he is not the person to lead the Liberals or any other party. He will slowly destroy the party and sink it back into oblivion again before the next election and that is fine with most conservative thinking voters.


Baird rules out military response to Soviet-style intervention in Ukraine

Troubling times...

And yet Harper is called a Nazi by some, those who can't realize/recognize those who are, quite clearly, the real Nazis/oppressors of the world, if it wasn't so sad it would make me laugh.

All you can do is shake your head at their ignorance.

Putin is practically the devil himself to anyone who knows his history. The sooner he is "eliminated" from power, all the better.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Baird rules out military response to Soviet-style intervention in Ukraine
> 
> Troubling times...
> 
> And yet Harper is called a Nazi by some, those who can't realize/recognize those who are, quite clearly, the real Nazis/oppressors of the world, if it wasn't so sad it would make me laugh.
> 
> All you can do is shake your head at their ignorance.
> 
> Putin is practically the devil himself to anyone who knows his history. The sooner he is "eliminated" from power, all the better.


Very true, screature. This reminds me of March 1938, when Hitler made himself the advocate of ethnic Germans living in Czechoslovakia, triggering the "Sudeten Crisis". Crimea is looking much like the Sudetenland take-over back in 1938.


----------



## FeXL

I'm trying to decide who this says more about. City officials, COTU pedestrians or both...

Toronto mulling plan to hire people to help pedestrians cross the street



> City officials are spending about $100,000 to look into Transportation Assistance Personnel (TAP) in the downtown core as a way to combat gridlock.
> 
> Essentially a TAP would mosey pedestrians along who dawdle in the middle of the intersection or who begin crossing when the light turns to amber.


Nanny-state, much?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I'm trying to decide who this says more about. City officials, COTU pedestrians or both...
> 
> Nanny-state, much?


Currently, many of the school crossing guards I encounter in Toronto try to take on regular pedestrian traffic as well. Many of them are so inept and misdirect vehicle traffic with such vigour that I fear for the safety of the students.


----------



## Dr.G.

Tax agency targeting middle-income tax cheats - Business: Tax Season - CBC News

Well, at least this takes some of the pressure off of the high wealth persons who might have been concerned that the CRA was going to go after their off shore accounts.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ranks of mega-wealthy to surge as Toronto leads way (Sorry, Vancouver) - The Globe and Mail

Luckily, now that the CRA has set it's sights upon those who earn tips, these folks will be able to enjoy life once again.


----------



## SINC

Just got this email from CFIB. An interesting read indeed.



> *Ontario falls off the rails compared to B.C.*
> 
> By Laura Jones
> 
> Researchers have found that exercise is a "keystone" habit: When people start exercising regularly, other habits start changing for the better. People typically start to eat better, smoke less, have less debt and feel less stressed.
> 
> Which leads one to wonder, what is the equivalent keystone habit for governments?
> 
> I was working with my Ontario colleagues last week and one of them remarked that the government there is in such a mess that it's hard to even know where to start making recommendations. My colleagues were looking to British Columbia for inspiration. Essentially, they wanted to know, what is the keystone habit that B.C. has, that Ontario can mimic to get back on track?
> 
> From a small-business perspective, Ontario is off the rails - business confidence is low and the government is talking about several onerous tax hikes, including a new payroll tax to fund a "made-in-Ontario" supplement to the Canada Pension Plan and higher gas, sales and income taxes to fund infrastructure.
> 
> Consumers and businesses are worried about skyrocketing energy prices. Almost nothing the government is doing is fuelling the confidence that gets businesses excited about growing.
> 
> On a recent survey, only 15 per cent of small-business owners expressed confidence in the Ontario government's vision to support entrepreneurship, compared to 48 per cent in B.C. The keystone habit that Ontario should focus on to turn things around (and B.C. should keep focusing on to maintain business confidence) is balancing the budget.
> 
> A government that prioritizes balancing the budget is signalling a number of important things. First, that spending will be controlled and tradeoffs, even tough ones, will be made.
> 
> It conveys an understanding that today's deficits are tomorrow's taxes. Future generations matter. Balanced budgets make room for tax relief. It is living within your means. And unlike a lot of political blather, a commitment to balance the budget is concrete and quantifiable. Businesses strongly approve of balanced budgets and a more confident business community is more likely to invest and hire, fuelling economic growth and improving living standards.
> 
> B.C.'s focus on balanced budgets has meant that seven of the past 10 budgets, including the latest one, have been balanced (the 2008 financial crisis led to several deficits). Ontario had three of its past 10 budgets in balance.
> 
> In Ontario, the debt per capita is roughly $20,100. In British Columbia, it is less than half that, at $8,600 per person. B.C. Premier Christy Clark wants to eliminate the debt - something that is popular with small business and the general public. Ontario is not planning on having another balanced budget until 2017-18. Even this modest goal is looking shaky, as the government has indicated it is willing to miss interim deficit-reduction targets rather than trim spending growth. There is no talk of paying down debt.
> 
> Fitness is a keystone habit for individuals. For the institution of government it is no different, and fiscal fitness starts with balancing the budget.
> 
> Laura Jones is Executive Vice President of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Just got this email from CFIB. An interesting read indeed.


Nailed it.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Nailed it.


Successful provinces ensure the health of the economy comes first, then see what sort of benefits they can afford.

The Ontario government prescription: make sure we spend until the cupboard is bare, then get angry that businesses are leaving the province, instead of suffering along with the chaos they've created.

Was actually happy to see this:

Hudak takes credit for Chrysler deal unravelling | Toronto Star

If it's true, I give him credit.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Such a cartoon is offensive to the Jewish community, to all who suffered during WWII and to Canadian veterans who sacrificed so much to liberate Europe from Nazi rule."

Peter MacKay demands apology for Nazi swastika cartoon - Nova Scotia - CBC News

I have to agree with MP Peter Mackay on this one.


----------



## eMacMan

I have copied this over from the tax thread in the perhaps forlorn hope that it can be allowed to return to topic.



> To be very clear, I do not blame the Government of Canada for having to file taxes in two countries. I've been doing so for twenty years. I do blame them for allowing themselves to blackmailed into enabling the IRS-FATCA-F(u)BAR extortion racket. I do however find it interesting that Canadian/Eritrean dual citizens enjoy special protection that Canada does not extend to a million plus CanAms and perhaps another million or so straight up Canadians who have only the most tenuous of US connections.
> 
> Again neither FATCA nor F(u)BARs have anything to do with taxes. A F(u)BAR was traditionally sent to the Treasury Department rather than the IRS itself. Now it must be filed electronically with FinCEN. FinCEN is the Financial Criminal Enforcement Network branch of the IRS. (Enforcement is of course Mafia speak for Extortion.) The FATCA and F(u)BAR data contain banking/investment account numbers, DOB and other sensitive information that even the CRA currently requires a court order to obtain. Neither contain any information about interest/dividends earned or any other information remotely related to taxation. Not a single line from the 1040 is entered into the F(u)BAR nor is a single F(u)BAR line entered onto the 1040.
> 
> FinCEN can now compare the information obtained from Canadian banks via FATCA to that obtained from US taxpayers abroad via F(u)BARS. Where disparities are found FinCEN can then "penalize" anyone who failed to file or made a mistake when filing a F(u)BAR. *The penalties can be as high as 300% of their life savings, even if they do not owe a dime in taxes.* Yes the penalties really are that severe.
> 
> Yes I do blame the government of Canada for enabling that extortion racket against over a million Canadian Citizens. I blame them even more for accepting input only from the banks and US legal experts, ignoring input from those most effected and from well respected Canadian experts such as Peter Hogg.
> 
> Sorry, for letting this wander somewhat off topic like that, I will copy this over to the CanPol thread and hopefully allow this thread to return to what I consider to be a very important topic.


*
I will be very interested to see if the enabling legislation forbids Canadian financial institutions from closing, freezing or turning accounts over to the IRS. Since the Big 5 have US branches they are required by US law to do exactly that.*


----------



## Dr.G.

Brian Mulroney endorses Justin Trudeau - L'Express Ottawa - article de blog

I did not see this one coming .......... very unexpected.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Brian Mulroney endorses Justin Trudeau - L'Express Ottawa - article de blog
> 
> I did not see this one coming .......... very unexpected.


It would be unexpected if he actually endorsed Justin Trudeau. That hasn't happened.

Mulroney has called him bilingual, attractive and articulate.

The first is a matter of record, the second a matter of taste, and a third a bit of an invention.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It would be unexpected if he actually endorsed Justin Trudeau. That hasn't happened.
> 
> Mulroney has called him bilingual, attractive and articulate.
> 
> The first is a matter of record, the second a matter of taste, and a third a bit of an invention.


An what has Mulroney to say about PM Harper and his staff?


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Brian Mulroney endorses Justin Trudeau - L'Express Ottawa - article de blog
> 
> I did not see this one coming .......... very unexpected.


As per usual with media these days the headline is entirely misleading relative to the content of the article and when it comes to the headline it is a complete fabrication and a lie, Mulroney didn't endorse JT at all.

What he did was to send out a "battle cry" to Torys to not be complaisant about this guy (despite his all too obvious short comings), he has lots of popular appeal based on the attributes he stated.

I hate the "news" media in general these days... I really do... I could go on but I really don't have the time right now.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> An what has Mulroney to say about PM Harper and his staff?


What?


----------



## eMacMan

Mulroney made some valid points and Harper seems to be going out of his way to tick off large blocks of voters that traditionally have leaned at least a little towards the conservatives.


----------



## Dr.G.

BREAKING NEWS: Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has resigned from the Conservative cabinet. More to come on CBCNews.ca.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> BREAKING NEWS: Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has resigned from the Conservative cabinet. More to come on CBCNews.ca.


This is not directed at you Dr. G., but how stupid/incompetent is it to have a headline without a story... it boggles the mind...

At any rate to anyone watching Jim in the House of Commons over the last number of weeks this will come as no surprise as his health has been clearly deteriorating.

He obviously needs to take some time to focus on his health and private matters.

I wish him all the best.


----------



## Dr.G.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty resigns from cabinet - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> This is not directed at you Dr. G., but how stupid/incompetent is it to have a headline without a story... it boggles the mind...
> 
> At any rate to anyone watching Jim in the House of Commons over the last number of weeks this will come as no surprise as his health has been clearly deteriorating.
> 
> He obviously needs to take some time to focus on his health and private matters.
> 
> I wish him all the best.


Sorry, I failed to include the Globe's headline and story as well. Mea culpa.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty resigns from cabinet - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> "Such a cartoon is offensive to the Jewish community, to all who suffered during WWII and to Canadian veterans who sacrificed so much to liberate Europe from Nazi rule."
> 
> Peter MacKay demands apology for Nazi swastika cartoon - Nova Scotia - CBC News
> 
> *I have to agree with MP Peter Mackay on this one.*


Absolutely!


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry, I failed to include the Globe's headline and story as well. Mea culpa.
> 
> Finance Minister Jim Flaherty resigns from cabinet - The Globe and Mail


No my comment had nothing to do with you Dr.G. I went to NationalNewsWatch.com and it was the lead headline with nothing but the headline and saying "more to come..." no story at all.

Thanks for subsequently posting the link though. Much appreciated.


----------



## screature

I really do doubt that his decision had nothing to do with his health (a matter of pride not to say so me thinks).
*
So with his departure any guesses as to who will "fill his shoes"? *

Whoever it is they will have to have pretty small feet.  I only say this because he is a man of rather small physical stature. 

In terms of personality and position he was a very big man indeed and so figuratively speaking they will have very large shoes to fill indeed.

I will miss his wit in QP.

All the best to you in your future endeavors, the Honorable Jim Flaherty and I hope your health continues to improve.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> BREAKING NEWS: Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has resigned from the Conservative cabinet. More to come on CBCNews.ca.


WHAT! It;s Friday evening already! Oh! That's right our Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster (OGL) Prime Minister Stevie is free to sneak out this type of information as Parliament is on a break this week as well.

Poor Jimbo couldn't balance a budget not even one budget before scampering off with the big bucks from his tax payer enriched unreformed pension.

Let's see who our OGL has doing tricks to replace Jimbo. That will be a better MONEY SHOT than a Wailing Wall photo.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> WHAT! It;s Friday evening already! Oh! That's right our Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster (OGL) Prime Minister Stevie is free to sneak out this type of information as Parliament is on a break this week as well.
> 
> Poor Jimbo couldn't balance a budget not even one budget before scampering off with the big bucks from his tax payer enriched unreformed pension.
> 
> Let's see who our OGL has doing tricks to replace Jimbo. That will be a better MONEY SHOT than a Wailing Wall photo.


Good grief, how jaded can you be and still function? Childish name calling is a poor reflection on you as any type of a man as well. :roll eyes:

The man served his country well and I applaud him for that. :clap:

You on the other hand deserve little more than this: tptptptp


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> WHAT! It;s Friday evening already! Oh! That's right our Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster (OGL) Prime Minister Stevie is free to sneak out this type of information as Parliament is on a break this week as well.
> 
> Poor Jimbo couldn't balance a budget not even one budget before scampering off with the big bucks from his tax payer enriched unreformed pension.
> 
> Let's see who our OGL has doing tricks to replace Jimbo. That will be a better MONEY SHOT than a Wailing Wall photo.


You sir are no gentleman and have no gentlemanly qualities that have ever been displayed here.

This was a decision of Minster Flaherty's not of the PM... I guess the irony of the fact that he made the announcement the day after St. Patrick's day escapes you (Flaherty is of Irish decent)....

He may be a little leprechaun, but you, as you have displayed time and again, Including your most recent post, are nothing but a big troll.

No class... None at all.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Good grief, how jaded can you be and still function? Childish name calling is a poor reflection on you as any type of a man as well. :roll eyes:
> 
> The man served his country well and I applaud him for that. :clap:
> 
> You on the other hand deserve little more than this: tptptptp


+1 tptptptp... I was trying to be as "diplomatic" as possible and not use the raspberry, but I am glad someone did.

Thanks for that SINC. :clap:


----------



## SINC

And now this from people who know:



> CFIB thanks Minister Flaherty for supporting small business
> 
> Toronto, March 18, 2014 – On behalf of Canada’s small business community, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB) sends its congratulations to Jim Flaherty on his many years as Minister of Finance.
> 
> *“Minister Flaherty has been an outstanding Finance Minister and has been a strong supporter of Canada’s entrepreneurs,” said CFIB president Dan Kelly. “Among the Minister’s many accomplishments are an increase in the lifetime capital gains exemption and small business corporate tax thresholds, a freeze in Employment Insurance and Canada Pension Plan premiums and the Code of Conduct for the Debit and Credit Card Industry,” Kelly added. “Minister Flaherty has helped strengthen the environment for entrepreneurs in Canada and leaves a legacy of solid and practical policy decisions.”*
> 
> “We wish Jim our best on his return to the private sector and look forward to an early meeting with his successor as Minister of Finance,” Kelly added. “CFIB will be lobbying hard for an early introduction of the budget commitment to lower credit card processing fees for small firms across Canada,” Kelly concluded.
> 
> CFIB is Canada’s largest association of small and medium-sized businesses with 109,000 members across every sector and region.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Ben Dover - I'll drive!*

Veterans don't have social contract, Ottawa says in lawsuit response - Politics - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Veterans don't have social contract, Ottawa says in lawsuit response - Politics - CBC News


So long Cons.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

By the way there is another thread insinuating that the relationship between Bombardier and the fed govt started under Chretien.

Another false claim. Take a look at the $1 transfer of the Canadair lands to Bombardier by none other than Brian "I'll take the cash"Mulroney.

The Cons.

Pffft!


----------



## screature

Awwh too bad... I thought you were gone for good skippy/jimbo/stink/stank/stunk...

Dreams die hard. :-(


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Awwh too bad... I thought you were gone for good skippy/jimbo/stink.
> 
> Dreams die hard. :-(


"The Dream never dies just the dreamer."

In the immortal words of Kansas.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> "The Dream never dies just the dreamer."
> 
> In the immortal words of Kansas.


:lmao: Kansas.... :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> :lmao: Kansas.... :lmao:


I despise them too.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I despise them too.


Anyway despite my previous post it is nice to know you are alive and well despite our differences on... well... everything.

Hope you have been enjoying some good times with family and friends in your absence.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Anyway despite my previous post it is nice to know you are alive and well despite our differences on... well... everything.
> 
> Hope you have been enjoying some good times with family and friends in your absence.


Thank you. All is well. Looking forward to a change in direction in 2015. Trust the same in your household.

Cheers!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *Thank you. All is well. *Looking forward to a change in direction in 2015. Trust the same in your household.
> 
> Cheers!



EDIT: It seems we don't entirely disagree when it comes to musical tastes... I think that has been demonstrated before, if memory serves me correctly... at least that may be some common ground. 

You are welcome. That's good to know. 

Re: 2015, time will tell... thanks for asking about my household, we are holding our own.

The state of affairs in the Ukraine/Crimea/Russia/Eurasia and the West does have me concerned though.

Truth be told I do have an evil thought though and it involves Putin... the guy is one scary ass son of a bitch. Just looking at a picture of his face makes me want to punch him...

Who knows what he will do next with his manifest destiny and returning Russia to being an Empire a la the defunct USSR/CSSR.... It does make me have some worries.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> You are welcome. That's good to know.
> 
> Re: 2015, time will tell... thanks for asking about my household, we are holding our own.
> 
> The state of affairs in the Ukraine/Crimea/Russia/Eurasia and the West does have me concerned though.
> 
> Truth be told I do have an evil thought though and it involves Putin... the guy is one scary ass son of a bitch. Just looking at a picture of his face makes me want to punch him...
> 
> Who knows what he will do next with his manifest destiny and returning Russia to being an Empire a la the defunct USSR/CSSR.... It does make me have some worries.


I share your concerns, screature. This still reminds me of the German invasion of the Sudetenland and Hitler's declaration of "Ein Volk, ein Führer, ein Reich". I do NOT trust Putin.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Finance Minister Jim Flaherty resigns from cabinet - The Globe and Mail


While I think the Finance Ministers main reason is health issues, the sellout of Canadian sovereignty via the FATCA deal was sure to bite him in the A55. Already constitutional experts are saying the only way to make this fly constitutionally is via section 33; The Notwithstanding Clause.

Kind of like taking a nuclear bomb to the civil rights of a sizable number of Canadians. 

Interesting times for his successor as Flaherty spent two years in secret FATCA negotiations, accepting no input whatsoever from any one but the bankers and the IRS. More importantly during that two years he failed to deal with any of FATCAs major flaws. Now his successor gets to deal with a monster laundry list of problems in a very short time. I have seen 58 page submissions, that despite dealing with many points very concisely, still leaves out important issues.

This mess alone should easily brand him as Canada's worst Finance Minister ever, and we can add to his accomplishments that not so rare inability to balance the budget. Ironically with Canada pulling out of Afghanistan he stood a 50:50 chance on that one. Guessing that Harper will kaibosh that opportunity by dragging us into the Ukraine.

BTW I am sure come 2015 the Revenue Minister and her comments about being thrilled about signing the FATCA IGA will cost her; her job. There is an unusually high concentration of CanAms in her riding and they will not be at all forgiving.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Veterans don't have social contract, Ottawa says in lawsuit response - Politics - CBC News


"You're paid to stop a bullet,
It's a soldier's job they say.
But when you stop this bullet,
They then will stop your pay."

Lest we forget.


----------



## screature

screature said:


> I really do doubt that his decision had nothing to do with his health (a matter of pride not to say so me thinks).
> *
> So with his departure any guesses as to who will "fill his shoes"? *
> 
> Whoever it is they will have to have pretty small feet.  I only say this because he is a man of rather small physical stature.
> 
> In terms of personality and position he was a very big man indeed and so figuratively speaking they will have very large shoes to fill indeed.
> 
> I will miss his wit in QP.
> 
> All the best to you in your future endeavors, the Honorable Jim Flaherty and I hope your health continues to improve.



Well that didn't take long.

PM names Joe Oliver as finance minister, Rickford moves to natural resources

He certainly has the CV to do the job:



> well known on Bay Street, having spent decades working there as an investment banker.
> 
> He went on to become executive director of the Ontario Securities Commission and then president of the Investment Dealers Association of Canada.


He certainly won't be as much fun as Flaherty. I don't think Oliver has a "funny bone" in his body.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> While I think the Finance Ministers main reason is health issues, the sellout of Canadian sovereignty via the FATCA deal was sure to bite him in the A55. Already constitutional experts are saying the only way to make this fly constitutionally is via section 33; The Notwithstanding Clause.
> 
> Kind of like taking a nuclear bomb to the civil rights of a sizable number of Canadians.
> 
> Interesting times for his successor as Flaherty spent two years in secret FATCA negotiations, accepting no input whatsoever from any one but the bankers and the IRS. More importantly during that two years he failed to deal with any of FATCAs major flaws. Now his successor gets to deal with a monster laundry list of problems in a very short time. I have seen 58 page submissions, that despite dealing with many points very concisely, still leaves out important issues.
> 
> *This mess alone should easily brand him as Canada's worst Finance Minister ever*, and we can add to his accomplishments that not so rare inability to balance the budget. Ironically with Canada pulling out of Afghanistan he stood a 50:50 chance on that one. Guessing that Harper will kaibosh that opportunity by dragging us into the Ukraine.
> 
> BTW I am sure come 2015 the Revenue Minister and her comments about being thrilled about signing the FATCA IGA will cost her; her job. There is an unusually high concentration of CanAms in her riding and they will not be at all forgiving.



What joke... the average Canadian is not in the least bit affected by FATCA. Just because it is your cause celeb doesn't mean that most give a rats ass about dual citizen's woes. 

eMacMac, meet dead horse, dead horse, ehMac Man.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> What joke... the average Canadian is not in the least bit affected by FATCA. Just because it is your cause celeb doesn't mean that most give a rats ass about dual citizen's woes.
> 
> eMacMac, meet dead horse, dead horse, ehMac Man.


No just a couple of million of them, including some very rich snowbirds who I suspect will no longer be contributing to the Con cause. Far from being dead it took just six days to raise more than enough funds for the first step of a Charter challenge. 

This is not just about the Government of Canada agreeing to over-ride it's own banking privacy laws to meet the requirements of a foreign power, then passing along confidential banking information to the IRS, FBI, NSA, CIA, HSA............................It's also about the Government of Canada being an enabler of a world wide extortion ring. 

What it is not about is taxes. As evidence we already have the Off Shore Voluntary Disclosure Program, which has collected almost nothing in the way of taxes owed, but $Billion$ of dollars in extortion penalties for unfiled F(u)BARs and similar extortion forms.


----------



## Macfury

I get it and it sucks and strikes me as very unfair. However, I seriously doubt it's going to turn an election. 

We get that it's about penalties--and that's an unfortunate part of being associated with a country that would pull something like this.



eMacMan said:


> No just a couple of million of them, including some very rich snowbirds who I suspect will no longer be contributing to the Con cause. Far from being dead it took just six days to raise more than enough funds for the first step of a Charter challenge.
> 
> This is not just about the Government of Canada agreeing to over-ride it's own banking privacy laws to meet the requirements of a foreign power, then passing along confidential banking information to the IRS, FBI, NSA, CIA, HSA............................It's also about the Government of Canada being an enabler of a world wide extortion ring.
> 
> What it is not about is taxes. As evidence we already have the Off Shore Voluntary Disclosure Program, which has collected almost nothing in the way of taxes owed, but $Billion$ of dollars in extortion penalties for unfiled F(u)BARs and similar extortion forms.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> EDIT: It seems we don't entirely disagree when it comes to musical tastes... I think that has been demonstrated before, if memory serves me correctly... at least that may be some common ground.
> 
> You are welcome. That's good to know.
> 
> Re: 2015, time will tell... thanks for asking about my household, we are holding our own.
> 
> The state of affairs in the Ukraine/Crimea/Russia/Eurasia and the West does have me concerned though.
> 
> Truth be told I do have an evil thought though and it involves Putin... the guy is one scary ass son of a bitch. Just looking at a picture of his face makes me want to punch him...
> 
> Who knows what he will do next with his manifest destiny and returning Russia to being an Empire a la the defunct USSR/CSSR.... It does make me have some worries.


I'm baffled as to what's in it for Putin outside of making him look like a shrewd strong man. I wouldn't like to be a member of the Tatar minority (roughly 12% of Crimea). Blatant disregard for law this mess.

And the fink can turn off the gas if he wants to.

BBC reported that Merkel spoke with Putin and found him different as if drugged. I thought his appearances in Sochi made him look like a wax man.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'm baffled as to what's in it for Putin outside of making him look like a shrewd strong man. I wouldn't like to be a member of the Tatar minority (roughly 12% of Crimea). Blatant disregard for law this mess.
> 
> And the fink can turn off the gas if he wants to.
> 
> BBC reported that Merkel spoke with Putin and found him different as if drugged. I thought his appearances in Sochi made him look like a wax man.


I watched a documentary on Putin several years ago and he (being former KGB) lamented the end of the empire of the former USSR/CSSR. 

He made it quite clear in the interview that he would strive to bring back Russia to being an Empire... Crimea is just the "low hanging fruit" that he could easily grasp as a shrewd/crazy fox and he knows the West will not start WWIIII over Crimea.

It's a done deal in Crimea, it is a part of Russia until Putin dies (one way or the other, personally I prefer sooner than later) and perhaps beyond. 

So who is next? All of Ukraine quite possibly? Then who is next? Most likely Moldeva:









After that it is most likely he will move north and invade Belarus then he will have easy access to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

It doesn't make sense that he would move south and take on Romania and then have to deal with Yugoslavia and then Bulgaria... The easier pickins are to the North.


----------



## SINC

Goodbye and good riddance!

Embattled Alison Redford resigns as premier of Alberta | CTV News


----------



## Dr.G.

Alison Redford resigning as Alberta premier.

Alison Redford resigning as Alberta premier - Edmonton - CBC News


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Alison Redford resigning as Alberta premier.
> 
> Alison Redford resigning as Alberta premier - Edmonton - CBC News


We posted this at exactly the same time. 

For the record, I had been expecting this for a few days now. The party was ousting her without question and all my contacts predicted this would happen sooner than later. No surprise at all and all things here are being celebrated as "The wicked witch is dead!" 

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1269.html#post1667458


----------



## eMacMan

An interesting read:



> The majority of judges said that Nadon’s appointment was void from the outset - it had never taken effect - despite the fact that Harper named him, vetted him and confirmed Nadon’s selection in the space of three days last October.





> OTTAWA—The Supreme Court of Canada has issued a stunning rejection of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s judicial appointment of federal appeals judge Marc Nadon to the country’s top bench.
> 
> The high court in a 6-1 ruling said Friday the Conservative government’s appointment last fall of Nadon to one of its own seats reserved for Quebec was an unconstitutional change to the composition of the Supreme Court of Canada, and required the unanimous approval of parliament and the provinces.
> 
> The ruling is an astonishing rebuttal of every political and legal argument the Conservative government, Harper’s Justice Minister Peter MacKay and federal lawyers made. It could have implications for the reform of another key federal institution: the senate.
> ......





> And the three seats set aside by law for Quebec are restricted to superior trial or appellate court judges or current members of the Quebec bar, not open to members of the Ottawa-based Federal Court or Federal Court of Appeal, the high court has ruled.


Supreme Court of Canada rejects Harper judicial appointee Marc Nadon | Toronto Star

I would personally argue that 3 seats for Quebec is rather excessive. OTOH Harper's attempted end around should not be tolerated. We've seen way too much of that sort of tactic from the Cons.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I would personally argue that 3 seats for Quebec is rather excessive. OTOH Harper's attempted end around should not be tolerated. We've seen way too much of that sort of tactic from the Cons.


I always find Stephen Harper's strategies interesting. This attempt certainly had a lot of thought behind it.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> An interesting read:
> 
> Supreme Court of Canada rejects Harper judicial appointee Marc Nadon | Toronto Star
> 
> I would personally argue that 3 seats for Quebec is rather excessive. OTOH Harper's attempted *end around *should not be tolerated. We've seen way too much of that sort of tactic from the Cons.


The phrase is actually "end run", it comes from football, but hey they were testing the system to see what is and isn't considered fair game... They found out. I see nothing wrong with it, everything played out within the legal system, isn't that how a democracy is supposed to be run?

It isn't like they took full executive control like Trudeau did during the October "Crisis" and invoked the *War Measures Act*, the single greatest abuse of executive power that has ever happened in Canada.

Lest we forget.


----------



## Macfury

I have heard that civil liberties were not officially restored until years later--although I have not been able to find a hard date for it after searching for about 15 minutes.



screature said:


> It isn't like they took full executive control like Trudeau did during the October "Crisis" and invoked the *War Measures Act*, the single greatest abuse of executive power that has ever happened in Canada.
> 
> Lest we forget.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> The phrase is actually "end run", it comes from football, but hey they were testing the system to see what is and isn't considered fair game... They found out. I see nothing wrong with it, everything played out within the legal system, isn't that how a democracy is supposed to be run?
> 
> It isn't like they took full executive control like Trudeau did during the October "Crisis" and invoked the *War Measures Act*, the single greatest abuse of executive power that has ever happened in Canada.
> 
> Lest we forget.


Think of an end around as a sneakier version of the end run. I believe the phrase was appropriate.

Interesting the way the politico mind works. The Constitution is there because politicians, left to their own devices would quickly destroy the nation in order to advance the causes of their political bedmates. I would suggest that despite some minor flaws Canada's Constitution is very well written. When properly adhered to, it does an excellent job of protecting Canadians from their government.

I find the concept that it is quite OK, for whichever bums hold the reins of power, to try to sneak around the Constitution and Charter of Rights, disturbing in the extreme. Disturbing but not surprising.


----------



## eMacMan

A thought here on the salary.

If Marc Nadon was anywhere close to being Supreme Court material, he was well aware that his appointment did meet Constitutional criteria. Ditto for the Harpo gang as witnessed by the contortions they went through in an attempt to bypass the constitution.

With that in mind, if Marc Nadon has been paid for his 5 months on the court should that money be repaid? Per diems?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Think of an end around as a sneakier version of the end run. I believe the phrase was appropriate.*
> 
> Interesting the way the politico mind works. The Constitution is there because politicians, left to their own devices would quickly destroy the nation in order to advance the causes of their political bedmates. I would suggest that despite some minor flaws Canada's Constitution is very well written. When properly adhered to, it does an excellent job of protecting Canadians from their government.
> 
> I find the concept that it is quite OK, for whichever bums hold the reins of power, to try to sneak around the Constitution and Charter of Rights, disturbing in the extreme. Disturbing but not surprising.





eMacMan said:


> A thought here on the salary.
> 
> If Marc Nadon was anywhere close to being Supreme Court material, he was well aware that his appointment did meet Constitutional criteria. Ditto for the Harpo gang as witnessed by the contortions they went through in an attempt to bypass the constitution.
> 
> With that in mind, if Marc Nadon has been paid for his 5 months on the court should that money be repaid? Per diems?


Even when misquoting a saying you still have to make it seem as if you are right.  Typical.

There was no "sneaking". An appointment was made, a challenge was made and the process unfolded as it should. Cripes even when the system works the way it is supposed to you still have to try and find gremlins. 

How do you ever relax and just have a good time with all the negativity floating around in your head?

But here is a differing point of view:

By spurning Marc Nadon, the Supreme Court is also rejecting the executive’s fundamental role in governance



> It is a disgraceful decision, the final howl of which is this: How dare the executive branch, the government, have gone and picked a judge and amended a law?
> 
> Whichever plot you favour to explain the now-scuttled appointment of Marc Nadon to the Supreme Court of Canada — there’s a convoluted connection to the former boy terrorist/boy victim Omar Khadr which has been offered to explain both appointment and scuttling, but the really fabulous one is that the high court has stepped in yet again to check that well-known force of darkness, Prime Minister Stephen Harper — it’s crystal clear that the Supreme Court of Canada is unhappy with this government which insists upon doing the business of governing.
> 
> A couple of other things are staring Canadians in the face.
> 
> The first is that seven of the alleged best minds in the entire country have spent five months twisting themselves into knots and arguing over whether the word “among” has a temporal meaning, in other words, whether its use refers to a fixed period of time or season.
> 
> This is not heartening news, despite the crowing across the land Friday as correct thinkers everywhere cheered the court for its wisdom.
> 
> Seriously: In the context of the case, the word appears 46 times in English, while its French equivalent, parmi, appears 28 times. That’s in a 48-page ruling.
> 
> In one single paragraph of the majority’s exquisitely precious decision, one or another of “among” or “parmi” appears nine times. It’s paragraph 41. If I repeat it here, you will doze off.
> 
> At issue, of course, was whether Judge Nadon of the Federal Court of Appeal qualified for the Supreme Court.
> 
> He’s from Quebec — born and raised, educated in French — and was meant to fill one of the three seats reserved for Quebecers.
> 
> One section of the governing legislation specifies that all high court judges must come either from a province’s Superior Court or Appeal Court or from the ranks of its current or former lawyers with at least 10 years standing.
> 
> But the very next section of the legislation deals with Quebec’s three seats and says “At least three of the judges shall be appointed from among the judges of the Court of Appeal or of the Superior Court of the Province of Quebec or from among the advocates of that Province.”
> 
> That’s what the allegedly smartest kids in the room have been chewing on, lo this past near-half year, since the government referred two questions to them: Can a former member of the Quebec bar of 10 years’ standing (Judge Nadon) be appointed or not? And, can Parliament pass amendments, as Parliament did, allowing such a person (Judge Nadon) to be appointed or not?
> 
> The government, being this government, had muddied the waters by amending the legislation, in a sneaky way, to make explicit what had heretofore been implicit: If current and former lawyers are good enough for the rest of the country, of course they’re good enough for Quebec also.
> 
> Well, people had a fit, particularly within the bar.
> 
> They cried that the Prime Minister was attempting to foist his crazy right-wing choices on the high court, though there’s little evidence Judge Nadon is that, not to mention that of the majority of judges who have slapped the PM’s face by tossing his appointment, three are Harper nominees — Judges Richard Wagner, Andromache Karatatsanis and Thomas Cromwell. (Judge Marshall Rothstein, who didn’t write on this decision, is also a Harper appointee.)
> 
> If the PM has tried to remake the court in his own dark image, in other words, he has failed abjectly.
> 
> In fact, by my reckoning, the only one of his alleged guys who managed to see this thing clearly, aside perhaps from Judge Nadon himself, was Judge Michael Moldaver, the lone brave dissenting voice on the bench.
> 
> His decision is succinct (13 pages to the blathering 35 of the majority), smart and objectively filled with common sense.
> 
> Early on, he made it clear how he saw the big picture.
> 
> Of the first question — whether former Quebec lawyers meet the eligibility requirements as former lawyers would anywhere else — he said, “That is a legal issue, not a political one. It is not the function of this court to comment on the merits of an appointment or the selection process that led to it.
> 
> “Those are political matters that belong to the executive branch of government. They form no part of our mandate.”
> 
> (The comments echo what Judge Nadon said at the hearing of a special parliamentary committee last October. “We’re not another Parliament,” he said of the court. “It’s not up to us to say ‘this is not a good law, it ought to be changed.’” Clearly, he was never going to fit in on this activist court, where the majority likes to make law.)
> 
> Judge Moldaver quickly went on to say that of course both sections of the legislation should be read together, or as he put it once, “If Parliament had intended to distinguish Quebec appointees from other appointees by requiring that Quebec judges be current judges or current advocates, surely it would have said so in clear terms. It would not have masked this crucial distinction between Quebec candidates and non-Quebec candidates by using words as ambiguous and inconclusive as ‘from among’.”
> 
> I can’t do justice to his 13 pages here, but boy, is it good.
> 
> The majority decision itself is bad enough.
> 
> Even their language is insulting: The judges take every opportunity to refer to Judge Nadon as “supernumerary,” which is a term used to describe a judge who works part-time but collects full-time pay.
> 
> The suggestion is meant to convey something — age perhaps? Judge Nadon is 64. It’s a bit rich if that’s what they meant, coming from a group which includes a 70-year-old (Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin), a 73-year-old (Judge Rothstein) and a 67-year-old (Judge Rosalie Abella).
> 
> (The callow youths of the court are Judges Wagner and Karakatsanis, at 56 and 58. Judge Moldaver, at 66 in the middle, doesn’t use the supernumerary to describe Judge Nadon.)
> 
> But the most egregious thing of all is the celebration attending the decision, as though, now that the PM has been foiled, the judicial appointments system in Canada is once again intact, and pure.
> 
> In fact, it’s a crony-driven, quasi-secret process — judicial advisory appointment committees, composed of lawyers and the well-connected, vet candidates in each province and pass along the lists to the federal justice minister or the PM, who pick from among them.
> 
> These committees lend a sheen of respectability to the process, which at its heart is already nakedly respectable: To the victor go the spoils. If you win the election and form the government, surely you should be able to pick judges, assuming of course they’re capable, and pass laws?
> 
> But the opaque and unelected committees of lawyers giving the nod to those they like or know, who elected them?
> 
> As no less a figure than John Adams, the second American president and a lawyer, once wrote, “The judicial power ought to be distinct from both the legislative and the executive, and independent upon both, that so it may be a good check upon both, as,’’ and the italics are mine, ‘‘both should be checks upon that.”


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> We posted this at exactly the same time.
> 
> For the record, I had been expecting this for a few days now. The party was ousting her without question and all my contacts predicted this would happen sooner than later. No surprise at all and all things here are being celebrated as "The wicked witch is dead!"
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1269.html#post1667458


I don't dispute her excess and sense of self entitlement... that is just a given among many politicians.

What I do think is that quite possibly as a mother, her daughter doesn't need to be teased/tormented by her classmates any longer and she could easily find a job somewhere else where she wasn't in the public eye so much and she could just live a "normal" life raising her daughter. 

I could be completely wrong of course, but that seems to me to be one possible scenario.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> I don't dispute her excess and sense of self entitlement... that is just a given among many politicians.
> 
> What I do think is that quite possibly as a mother, her daughter doesn't need to be teased/tormented by her classmates any longer and she could easily find a job somewhere else where she wasn't in the public eye so much and she could just live a "normal" life raising her daughter.
> 
> I could be completely wrong of course, but that seems to me to be one possible scenario.


It may very well be a small part of it, but her mistreatment of caucus, outbursts of temper and other more dire things I have heard via my contacts, tell me she was a bitch that needed the boot.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> It may very well be a small part of it, but her mistreatment of caucus, outbursts of temper and other more dire things I have heard via my contacts, tell me she was a bitch that needed the boot.


See that leads me to think there is a certain of sexism involve. A man displaying such behavior is often considered a strong forceful leader. I know plenty of male MPs who exhibit the same sort of behavior and while people may not like them it is accepted.

Women in general are expected to more temperate in their behavior, otherwise they get labelled a bitch, just you just demonstrated (I know you didn't call her that but those that were talking to you did).


----------



## screature

And people think there are problems with Bill C-23. 

It seems if you are a student in Quebec and an anglophone or allophone originally coming from another province or territory within Canada you have been disenfranchised.

Since when do you have to "have the intention of making Quebec their principal establishment" as part of the qualifications for being eligible to vote? Since when does any student/person know where they are going to call home for anymore than a few years at a time.

This is clearly voter suppression and not at a party level but at the Electoral Office level.

Disgusting.

Quebec tries to clarify rules after English-speaking students turned away



> MONTREAL - Quebec's chief electoral office is trying to clarify the rules for voter eligibility after a number of English-speaking university students from elsewhere in Canada complained they were unable to register for the April 7 provincial election.
> 
> Denis Dion, a spokesman for the electoral office, said there are certain cases that are more difficult to assess and the key point is to determine whether a person is committed to living in Quebec.
> 
> "It seems that some people trying to register don't always understand the rules," he said.
> 
> The comments come after a number of university students came forward saying they had been denied the right to vote.
> 
> Earlier Saturday, the controversy moved in a different direction when Montreal's Le Devoir cited an electoral officer who was concerned about the high number of anglophones and allophones trying to register to vote at a downtown Montreal riding.
> 
> The electoral officer told the newspaper some of the people didn't have proper documentation and called the situation "abnormal."
> 
> "It's as if (Montreal's) Trudeau International Airport was wide open and we distributed free visas to anyone who came through, without question," Mathieu Vandal, the president of local electoral office in Montreal's Sainte-Marie-Saint-Jacques, told Le Devoir.
> 
> Vandal resigned from his post on Friday.
> 
> With the spectre of another referendum looming over the election, there was speculation on social media of both an attempt at voter suppression or an orchestrated attempt to take down the PQ.
> 
> PQ leader Pauline Marois said Saturday she was concerned about the situation and called for the chief electoral office to look into it.
> 
> "It raises very serious questions," Marois said.
> 
> "This is a situation that worries me."
> 
> But Dion sought to downplay any problems on Saturday. He said nothing fraudulent is suspected, and officials are working to clarify to the voting requirements.
> 
> Voters must be a Canadian citizen and have lived in Quebec for six months, and have the intention of making Quebec their principal establishment, Dion said.
> 
> He said officials also take into account other evidence, such as proof of a bank account in a Quebec institution, a Quebec health insurance card or driver's licence, or a Quebec income tax return.
> 
> Meanwhile, a number of university students remain confused about their status.
> 
> One McGill student, Joey Broda, said he voted in the 2012 Quebec provincial election but was initially turned away this time when he tried to register.
> 
> Broda, a third-year engineering student and Winnipeg native, said he was finally able to register after going to a different office.
> 
> Part of the reason he wanted to register was because he was worried about another referendum, he said, but added: "It's also our democratic right."
> 
> Another McGill student, Dune Desormeaux, said Saturday he was turned away when he tried to register.
> 
> The 21-year-old, originally from British Columbia, said he thought he brought the necessary identification but was told he couldn't vote because he was a student.
> 
> Since moving to the province, Desormeaux said he has only returned to British Columbia for a few weeks a year.
> 
> "I had anticipated having no problems," he said.
> 
> "I brought the documents requested — my picture ID and a proof of address. And basically I was told, after a reasonably long discussion, that I would not be eligible to vote because I was not domiciled in Quebec as they said."


----------



## Macfury

Agreed.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Agreed.


Just to add, who is next? Anglophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) stationed at a Quebec Military Base?

Question from the Electoral Office of Quebec to a member of the CAF posted in Quebec:

"Do you intend to make Quebec your permanent home?"

Member of CAF answers:

"I really don't know I am posted here for the next three years but beyond that I can't tell you."

Answer from an officer from the Electoral Office of Quebec:

"Qualification to vote denied. Next."


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> And people think there are problems with Bill C-23.
> 
> It seems if you are a student in Quebec and an anglophone or allophone originally coming from another province or territory within Canada you have been disenfranchised.
> 
> Since when do you have to "have the intention of making Quebec their principal establishment" as part of the qualifications for being eligible to vote? Since when does any student/person know where they are going to call home for anymore than a few years at a time.
> 
> This is clearly voter suppression and not at a party level but at the Electoral Office level.
> 
> Disgusting.
> 
> Quebec tries to clarify rules after English-speaking students turned away


To be blunt C23 is a bad bill. Thanks for your Quebec reference which perfectly illustrates: Why the party in power should not control the mechanics of an election. 

Much better written than many commentaries:
Three ways Harper's Bill C-23 undermines democracy | Toronto Star



> .....
> When we look at the game plan, Bill C-23 would make it harder for already marginalized Canadians to vote, gives the Conservatives an unfair advantage and disempowers Elections Canada from safeguarding our country’s democratic processes.
> 
> Access to a free and fair vote – for all Canadians – isn’t a game. It’s a right. Imagine what this government could accomplish if it spent as much energy upholding this right as it does coming up with unfair solutions to fictitious problems.


----------



## CubaMark

*A man is known by the company he keeps...*

*Rob Anders, the controversial Calgary Conservative MP, gets endorsement from Stephen Harper*

_Prime Minister Stephen Harper has endorsed controversial Calgary Conservative MP Rob Anders, who faces a serious challenge from a well-known former Alberta provincial minister as he seeks his party’s nomination for the 2015 election.

It’s unusual for the prime minister and Conservative party leader to endorse a particular candidate in a contested riding when the party has promised open nominations. It also raises the questions of whether Harper will openly endorse any other candidates.

Anders, a longtime Conservative member of Parliament known for his strong socially and fiscally conservative views — and sometimes inflammatory statements — is fighting former Alberta Progressive Conservative minister Ron Liepert for the Conservative nomination in the redrawn riding of Calgary Signal Hill._

(National Post)


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> *A man is known by the company he keeps...*


Why, yes. Yes he is. Knowing that, if an endorsement from Harper is some sort of slight (as you seem to imply), as a matter of interest, just what would you call an endorsement from Shiny Pony?


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *A man is known by the company he keeps...*
> 
> *Rob Anders, the controversial Calgary Conservative MP, gets endorsement from Stephen Harper*
> 
> _Prime Minister Stephen Harper has endorsed controversial Calgary Conservative MP Rob Anders, who faces a serious challenge from a well-known former Alberta provincial minister as he seeks his party’s nomination for the 2015 election.
> 
> It’s unusual for the prime minister and Conservative party leader to endorse a particular candidate in a contested riding when the party has promised open nominations. It also raises the questions of whether Harper will openly endorse any other candidates.
> 
> Anders, a longtime Conservative member of Parliament known for his strong socially and fiscally conservative views — and sometimes inflammatory statements — is fighting former Alberta Progressive Conservative minister Ron Liepert for the Conservative nomination in the redrawn riding of Calgary Signal Hill._
> 
> (National Post)


I seem to recall that prior to the last election Harper over-rode the riding's selection in one Calgary riding. The name of the long time con who got to keep his seat eludes me at the moment, but really this is nothing new on either side of the political fence. Difference is that Harper promised better but came up with the same old same old.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Why, yes. Yes he is. Knowing that, if an endorsement from Harper is some sort of slight (as you seem to imply), as a matter of interest, just what would you call an endorsement from Shiny Pony?


You have it backwards, FeXL. My already-low opinion of Harper comes crashing to the floor with his endorsement of Anders... if there were ever a politician worthy of the worst slanders we apply to that position, Rob Anders is it.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> You have it backwards, FeXL. My already-low opinion of Harper comes crashing to the floor with his endorsement of Anders... if there were ever a politician worthy of the worst slanders we apply to that position, Rob Anders is it.


Man, you have some vicious lefty blinders on. Anders is the politician that deserves the most slander of anyone you can think of in Parliament?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> You have it backwards, FeXL. My already-low opinion of Harper comes crashing to the floor with his endorsement of Anders... if there were ever a politician worthy of the worst slanders we apply to that position, Rob Anders is it.





Macfury said:


> Man, you have some vicious lefty blinders on. Anders is the politician that deserves the most slander of anyone you can think of in Parliament?


He is small potatoes always has been. Outspoken but in the end harmless.

There are many more MPs that are much more deserving of sever scrutiny never mind slander (did you really mean to say that the way you did? It doesn't come across very well actually) compared to Rob Anders. 

At least with him your pretty much know what you are getting, what you see is what you get, there are really no hidden cards, he lays it all out on the table. You can choose to agree or disagree and he has certainly has been a controversial MP but he has never wavered from who he has presented himself as being from the get go.

I don't agree with his politics but he has been true to himself and his beliefs, some people seem to appreciate that and he continues to get re-elected time and again...take it for what you will... especially for those who support those who never have formed a government and really don't seem to have much understanding of what it takes to become the governing party in Canada.


----------



## heavyall

I'm not at all surprised that Harper would back Anders. Anders is a former member of the NCC, a graduate of U of Calgary Poli-Sci, and one of the true-blue foot soldiers of the conservative movement in Canada going back to the Reform days. As one of the most ideologically consistent MPs that the CPC has, he's a guy with integrity that you want to keep. I'd be shocked if Harper DIDN'T offer his endorsement.

I'm also not at all surprised that people whose politics lean left of centre don't like him. There wouldn't be a lot of common ground there.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I'm also not at all surprised that people whose politics lean left of centre don't like him. There wouldn't be a lot of common ground there.


Yep--they shamelessly express no vitriol for the NDP's cadre of lefty-Quebec separatists.


----------



## FeXL

The Grope & Flail, on Albertans...

Alberta according to the Globe



> Not a lot of Albertans read the Toronto Globe and Mail newspaper, but those who did, back when Alison Redford became the leader of the Alberta PC Party, must have had a good chuckle.
> 
> “Alberta steps into the present,” was the sneering headline of the Globe, a newspaper that has only had white, male editors-in-chief since it was founded back in 1844.
> 
> It’s been 170 years, and the old boys at the Globe haven’t been able to find a woman up to the job.


Nails it.


----------



## chasMac

Yeah I remember that headline (heard it described as an "elitist sigh"). Really pissed a lot of people off round here.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> As one of the most ideologically consistent MPs that the CPC has, he's a guy with integrity that you want to keep.


_Yup. Real class act, that Anders fella..._

Rob Anders Scolded By Conservative Party For 'Misleading' Calls



> Conservative party officials have chastised Tory MP Rob Anders for what they say were misleading phone calls placed during a heated nomination battle — a pointed message that they want the race to be fair and open.
> 
> Anders' campaign for the nomination in Calgary-Signal Hill placed calls to party members last week that might have left the impression they were calling from rival Ron Liepert's campaign.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> _Yup. Real class act, that Anders fella..._
> 
> Rob Anders Scolded By Conservative Party For 'Misleading' Calls


The same article you are relying on says that Harper is endorsing all sitting MPs, not just Anders, so I guess you'll have to take back your original complaint.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> _Yup. Real class act, that Anders fella..._


Much ado about nothing. A simple poll that asked if the recipient supports Liepert. Calls like that are pretty common. He wasn't impersonating anyone, and he's pursuing legal action against Liepert for claiming that he did. There were two different calls. One asked do you support Liepert, the other asked do you support Anders. That's it.

I get why the party wrote the letter, the MSM is torquing the nomination process, so they had to get ahead of it.

And Anders has a very legitimate reason to be proceeding the way he is. The Liberals can't win seats west of Ontario, so they're just signing their own people up as Conservatives. They've managed to fool people with this crap with the provincial PCs, so they figure why not try it federally?


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Much ado about nothing. A simple poll that asked if the recipient supports Liepert. Calls like that are pretty common. He wasn't impersonating anyone, and he's pursuing legal action against Liepert for claiming that he did. There were two different calls. One asked do you support Liepert, the other asked do you support Anders. That's it.


I was scratching my head about what he supposedly did wrong. There's nothing wrong about asking if someone is supporting Liepert and nothing wrong with dissing him if they do. What sort of fool would believe that Liepert's own campaign workers are smearing him?


----------



## Dr.G.

Alison Redford ordered penthouse suite in Federal Building - Edmonton - CBC News

Oops. Had she not stepped down as Premier, this would not have gone over well with the folks in AB ................ or anywhere else in Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

Group honouring Canada's war vets now battling French extremists - The Globe and Mail

How sad .................


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Group honouring Canada's war vets now battling French extremists - The Globe and Mail
> 
> How sad .................


*Disgusting.*


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Group honouring Canada's war vets now battling French extremists - The Globe and Mail
> 
> How sad .................


Huge mix here. It is absolutely, unequivocally wrong to use someone elses work to promote causes the artist does not support.

It is equally wrong to deny anyone the right to question what they have been taught. If the history is accurate it will stand up to critical scrutiny. If it is wanting it deserves to be kicked to the curb. To say some particular bit of history is so sacred it should forever escape close review is also evil.

The evils of WWII went far beyond the holocaust. There were the bombings of British cities; the Eisenhower death camps (Give Patton full credit for refusing to participate); the firebombing of Dresden; the firebombing of 72 Japanese cities and towns (combined death toll far in excess of the atomic bombings); the Russian post war holocaust......................... All of these were equally evil and none should be considered so sacred as to prevent closer examination.

I have consistently said that fear/hatred based leadership is one of this planets worst evils. It matters not if it is neo-nazis advocating killing Jews, Bush killing Iraqi Muslims, Israel bombing the Gaza strip, or Harper participating in the bombing of Libya. It is wrong! But like it or not those who are in power and those who want to be, will tend to go in that direction as it is so much easier than competent leadership. Ultimately it is the message of fear and hatred that must be challenged no matter who is trying to deliver it.


----------



## Macfury

I agree, eMacMan, that there should be no official truth sanctioned by government. While there is every reason to sue Mr. Reynouard for misappropriation of images I am alarmed that there should be any law that attempts to prevent people from expressing any viewpoint, even one that may be considered vile and historically inaccurate. The principle is more important than any unpleasant expression of such beliefs.


----------



## MacDoc

*How utterly stupid can this country get*

letting these right wing clowns in power....



> *Canada Is a Lousy Oil Negotiator*
> 
> *We collected less than one-fifth the tax and royalty benefits Norway did in 2012. Ouch.*
> By Mitchell Anderson, Today, TheTyee.ca
> 
> In 2012, the Canadian taxpayer realized a benefit of about $9 per "barrel of oil equivalent" -- less than one-fifth what Norway collected in the same year. Barrel photo
> There is an old adage in business that you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. And there are few businesses bigger than Big Oil. The top 50 petroleum companies collectively have annual revenues over $5.6 trillion.
> 
> Subsurface mineral rights worldwide typically remain the property of sovereign nations, and oil companies only access that bounty through negotiated leases. You can imagine these negotiations are high stakes affairs. With potentially trillions of dollars on the table, both sides have a lot to gain and a lot to lose.
> 
> There is no doubt that some countries are blessed with easily accessible high-grade oil and can dictate more favorable terms. Others nations with low-grade or high-risk resources are in a weaker negotiating position.
> 
> That said, crude oil is what economists call a fungible commodity. With some notable exceptions, a barrel is a barrel is a barrel. Petroleum economists have also devised a convenient measure called "barrel of oil equivalent" (BOE), which includes not only crude oil but also natural gas, and a variety of other petroleum liquids.
> 
> While different nations use a variety of complicated taxation and royalty schemes to calculate future revenues, it is simpler to look backwards to see the revenue to the taxpayer per barrel of oil equivalent. This eliminates price fluctuations in a given year and also includes natural gas production, which is often a big part of petroleum production.
> 
> Canada taken to the cleaners
> 
> Norway and the U.K. are a particularly poignant example of two countries exploiting the same oil at the same time while one is clearly benefiting more than the other. Both countries also helpfully list their production and public revenues back to the 1970s, so it is simple to calculate what the taxpayer took home per barrel in any given year.
> 
> Digging through the numbers, it seems Norway is considerably more skilled at negotiation. By charging higher taxes and investing equity ownership in their own production, the Norwegian taxpayer was paid $46.29 BOE in 2012. That same year, the U.K. taxpayer realized only $20.08 per BOE -- less than half as much.
> 
> What about Canada? Much of our production is bitumen, which admittedly is a lower value (and often unprocessed) product with higher extraction costs. That said, it seems the nicest nation on earth is being taken to the cleaners. In 2012, Canada produced more than two billion BOE and collected $18 billion in provincial and federal taxes and royalties. This means that the Canadian taxpayer realized a benefit of about $9 per BOE -- less than one-fifth what Norway collected in the same year.
> 
> *Canada produces 45 per cent more petroleum than Norway. Imagine for the sake of argument that Canada collected what Norwegians did between 2009 and 2012. In those four years, Canada would have enjoyed revenues of $365 billion -- enough to pay off more than half of our national debt.*
> 
> Provincial race to the bottom
> 
> Instead, Canada is one of the cheapest places in the world for Big Oil to do business. A recent presentation by an international oil expert to the Alaskan government ranked Nova Scotia and Newfoundland as dead last in the world for public share of shallow water offshore oil operations. This is perhaps not surprising given the relative puny size of our provincial governments compared to the interests they sit across the table from.
> 
> Based on annual revenue, those 50 top oil companies are collectively 750 times larger than the government of Newfoundland and almost 130 times larger than the collective might of Albertan taxpayers. It's also difficult to attract talent to the public side of the table when the private sector pays so much better. The premier of Alberta brought home one per cent of the salary paid to the CEO of Suncor in 2011.
> 
> Every provincial jurisdiction is also in direct competition with each other in a race to the bottom to attract private petroleum investment. Internal government documents accessed by the Alberta Federation of Labour found that B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan charge lower royalty rates than any U.S. state. Bizarrely, this was framed as a public policy achievement.
> 
> *Out-lousying the nation: Alberta*
> 
> Since our country has an every-province-for-itself negotiating strategy, job strapped jurisdictions are not only contending with immensely powerful outside forces, but their own angry electorate every few years. It's hard to drive a hard bargain when voters can be maneuvered to take up industry's negotiating position. Nothing motivates a politician quite like the prospect of electoral defeat, and voters have become enlisted as unwitting allies in the billion-dollar brinksmanship of industry to access resources at ever-cheaper prices.
> 
> This long-term strategy is bearing some very lucrative fruit. The incumbent Conservatives almost lost the last Alberta election because they were allegedly demanding too much from the oil sector. For the record, Alberta produced about 1.5 billion barrels of oil equivalent in the calendar year 2012 and collected $6.13 billion in non-renewable royalties. That works out to a measly $4 per BOE -- less than one-tenth what Norway collected on its petroleum volume that same year.
> 
> Every indication is that the Wildrose Alliance will form the next provincial government in Alberta. The oil-friendly party promises to "create and maintain royalty and tax regimes that attract and sustain investment in our energy industries."
> 
> And that, in the negotiation business, is what you call an "end game." [Tyee]



The Tyee – Canada Is a Lousy Oil Negotiator


----------



## SINC

And what do Norwegian consumers get for those royalties on oil?

*The price of gasoline in Norway is 2.08 EUR per liter which is 87% higher than the average world price of gasoline: 1.11 EUR. The price of diesel in Norway is 1.95 EUR per liter which is 95% higher than the average world price. The fuel prices for Norway are obtained from official data sources and media outlets.*

Petrol, gasoline, diesel prices in Norway

*That is a whopping $3.17 per litre CDN.*

Just how long do you think Canadian drivers would stand for those kinds of prices? 

This isn't Norway, a puny little country so small and with so few miles of roads, it would easily fit inside Alberta. Norway 385,199 km² - Alberta 661,848 km².

In a country this large that depends so heavily on gas for transportation, such a policy on royalties would cripple our economy.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> And what do Norwegian consumers get for those royalties on oil?
> 
> *The price of gasoline in Norway is 2.08 EUR per liter which is 87% higher than the average world price of gasoline: 1.11 EUR. The price of diesel in Norway is 1.95 EUR per liter which is 95% higher than the average world price. The fuel prices for Norway are obtained from official data sources and media outlets.*
> 
> Petrol, gasoline, diesel prices in Norway
> 
> *That is a whopping $3.17 per litre CDN.*
> 
> Just how long do you think Canadian drivers would stand for those kinds of prices?
> 
> This isn't Norway, a puny little country so small and with so few miles of roads, it would easily fit inside Alberta. Norway 385,199 km² - Alberta 661,848 km².
> 
> In a country this large that depends so heavily on gas for transportation, such a policy on royalties would cripple our economy.


Then imagine doubling or even quadrupling those gas prices when MD gets his beloved Carbon tax. 

For that matter imagine quadrupled winter heating costs. Yep those of us who spend our winters in Canada still get winter. Despite all the dire threats it's getting colder not milder.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> And what do Norwegian consumers get for those royalties on oil?
> 
> *The price of gasoline in Norway is 2.08 EUR per liter which is 87% higher than the average world price of gasoline: 1.11 EUR. The price of diesel in Norway is 1.95 EUR per liter which is 95% higher than the average world price. The fuel prices for Norway are obtained from official data sources and media outlets.*
> 
> Petrol, gasoline, diesel prices in Norway
> 
> *That is a whopping $3.17 per litre CDN.*
> 
> Just how long do you think Canadian drivers would stand for those kinds of prices?
> 
> This isn't Norway, a puny little country so small and with so few miles of roads, it would easily fit inside Alberta. Norway 385,199 km² - Alberta 661,848 km².
> 
> In a country this large that depends so heavily on gas for transportation, such a policy on royalties would cripple our economy.


Absolutely. The royalties are based on the difficulty of extracting the oil, which in Canada is a huge cost. MacDoc, once again, is spouting garbage.


----------



## SINC

Well, Trudeau continues to show how little class he has as the pothead does it again. And this is a national leader who wants to be PM? :lmao:

Justin Trudeau drops f-bomb at charity event | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Well, Trudeau continues to show how little class he has as the pothead does it again. And this is a national leader who wants to be PM? :lmao:
> 
> Justin Trudeau drops f-bomb at charity event | Ottawa Citizen


Just like his daddy!


----------



## eMacMan

Meanwhile our own grand illustrious potentate, has buried his FATCA enabling legislation about 3/4 of the way through a 500 page omnibus bill. FWIW I mostly nailed that prediction as well. Had the budget come out on a normal schedule I am sure it would have been with in the budget omnibus bill and my prediction would have been bang on. Also as predicted, the Government completely ignored the voluminous input from those adversely impacted.

This is an agreement between the Government of Canada and the IRS which over rides several existing treaties or portions of treaties. Those treaties are not just bilateral, some are international. It also over rides Canada's banking privacy laws, the Charter of Rights and probably the Constitution. So what does Harper do? He buries it in an omnibus bill.

Any agreement that over rides existing treaties, Canadian laws and the Canadian Charter of Rights, deserves a stand alone treatment and full debate in the House of Commons.

To my way of thinking both Trudeau and Harper have set their bars at the bottom of a sewage lagoon.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Then imagine doubling or even quadrupling those gas prices when *MD* gets his beloved Carbon tax.
> 
> For that matter imagine quadrupled winter heating costs. Yep those of us who spend our winters in Canada still get winter. Despite all the dire threats it's getting colder not milder.


Who is MD?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> And what do Norwegian consumers get for those royalties on oil?
> 
> *The price of gasoline in Norway is 2.08 EUR per liter which is 87% higher than the average world price of gasoline: 1.11 EUR. The price of diesel in Norway is 1.95 EUR per liter which is 95% higher than the average world price. The fuel prices for Norway are obtained from official data sources and media outlets.*
> 
> Petrol, gasoline, diesel prices in Norway
> 
> *That is a whopping $3.17 per litre CDN.*
> 
> Just how long do you think Canadian drivers would stand for those kinds of prices?
> 
> This isn't Norway, a puny little country so small and with so few miles of roads, it would easily fit inside Alberta. Norway 385,199 km² - Alberta 661,848 km².
> 
> In a country this large that depends so heavily on gas for transportation, such a policy on royalties would cripple our economy.





Macfury said:


> Absolutely. The royalties are based on the difficulty of extracting the oil, which in Canada is a huge cost. MacDoc, once again, is spouting garbage.


But it is MacDoc's MO, he cites these stats from teeny weeny little countries that have absolutely no geopolitical similarities to Canada and thinks we should take on their policies, even when the country's geopolitical make up bares no similarity to our own. It takes a considerable amount of simple mindedness, to think the same, laws. rules and regulations are equally applicable here....

Notice once again no value added input, i.e. a few words of opinion or comment. Pretty lazy posting.... 

He comes across as a drive-by "poster"... takes one, two or a few shots and then disappears into the wood work until he strikes again.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Just like his daddy!


Such bravado... it makes me want to swoon. OMG I






you.

And yet when you read the comments in the various online rags, he has considerable support for his potty mouth... 

Just you wait, if he becomes PM he will become to Canadain politics what Justin Bieber is to the music/entertainment business, or Rob Ford is to Toronto.... a complete embarrassment.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada’s transformation under neoliberalism*

_Neoliberalism has been applied harshly in Canada, consistent with the international trend, but also reflecting the unique features (and weaknesses) of Canadian capitalism. In my review of the history of neoliberalism in Canada, I identify three crucial transition points: historical moments when neoliberal principles and practices were introduced, consolidated, and ideologically cemented.


A dramatic shift in the early 1980s in the emphasis of monetary policy.

The 1989 implementation of Canada-US free trade.

A dramatic increase in the economy’s reliance on resource extraction and export (especially petroleum), beginning just after the turn of the century.
_
* * *​
_At the beginning of the neoliberal era, Canada’s government was considerably more expansive than that in the US, largely reflecting the impact of the universal public programs introduced in the 1960s and 1970s. Initially, the gap between the two countries actually grew. After all, the cost of unemployment insurance and other income security programs increased dramatically in Canada in the wake of the successive recessions of 1981–82 and 1990–92.

It was only with the successive political and fiscal attack on those programs (justified in part by the claim that they were no longer “sustainable” in an era of free trade) that the scale of Canada’s government began to shrink rapidly. Spending cuts were then matched by tax cuts (disproportionately targeted at corporations and those who own them). Government activity in the economy (by this measure) was cut by 10 percentage points of GDP within a decade—a stunning and unprecedented withdrawal. By 2013, most of the gap in government spending had been eliminated between Canada and the US.

Perhaps this is the strongest indicator that under neoliberalism, Canada’s reputation as possessing a “kinder, gentler” incarnation of capitalism is no longer justified at all—to the extent that it ever was._

(Canadian Dimension)


----------



## Macfury

Bravo!


----------



## Macfury

> "What makes the United States government, on the whole, more tolerable—I mean for us lucky white men—is the fact that there is so much less of government with us.... But in Canada you are reminded of the government every day. It parades itself before you. It is not content to be the servant, but will be the master; and every day it goes out to the Plains of Abraham or to the Champs de Mars and exhibits itself and toots."
> 
> _-Henry David Thoreau[_



If Thoreau were alive today, he would see that his own country now takes that honour.


----------



## CubaMark

*"Support our troops!" "God bless our brave men and women in uniform!" *

*Blah Blah F-ing Blah.*

Anyone care to make the case for Conservative flag-waving and public troop boosting, while complaining their butts off about those same soldiers once they're back on Canadian soil? Can you spell *H Y P O C R I S Y* ??

*Romeo Dallaire: Tory Complaints Over Veterans Costs 'Pissing Me Off'*



> Sen. Romeo Dallaire, a former lieutenant-general and ex-commander of the ill-fated peacekeeping mission in Rwanda, described a number of recent encounters with "politicians who are second-guessing the cost of veterans."





> ...he's been hearing privately from politicians who complain about the price tag: the Conservative government spends roughly $3.8 billion each year on the Veterans Affairs Department.
> 
> "And I say: Oh, yeah?" said Dallaire, describing how he walks them through the dollar cost of equipping and deploying the military on missions like the recently concluded 12-year mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> "And then I say, 'Now that they're home — and the ones that are injured — they cost too much?' This has been sniffing its way around the Conservative hallways and it's pissing me off."
> 
> The rumblings stand in stark contrast to the Harper government's political messaging, which has been to strenuously insist that the Conservatives bend over backwards for Canada's veterans and will continue to do so.





> ...the government has pointedly failed to reconcile its political talking points with the legal stand being taken by Justice Department lawyers in a prominent class-action lawsuit being brought by veterans of the Afghan war.
> 
> In a statement of defence filed with B.C. Superior Court, the government argues there is no "social contract" between the country and its soldiers, despite their commitment to lay down their lives without question, and that promises made by past governments to care for the wounded are not binding on current and future governments.


(HuffPo)


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N5GzYhY2dk


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrahVon6UV8


----------



## SINC

Will 22 minutes ever grow up?


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Will 22 minutes ever grow up?


Hopefully not.


----------



## Dr.G.

“We often focus on income inequality but that’s a socialist paradise compared to wealth inequality.” 

Canada's 86 wealthiest have as much as the 11.4 million poorest, report finds - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> “We often focus on income inequality but that’s a socialist paradise compared to wealth inequality.”
> 
> Canada's 86 wealthiest have as much as the 11.4 million poorest, report finds - The Globe and Mail


Did you really expect anything else? When you compare the most advantaged to the least advantaged were the numbers really all that shocking to you?

This is nothing new, except that there are greater numbers in the most advantaged and less numbers in the least advantaged compared to say a century ago (proportionally speaking among democracies)... human progress is slow...

Some in modern times think things should change over night and suddenly there is bliss with the blink of an eye, sadly but most likely fortunately, it just isn't the case.


----------



## eMacMan

Ain't it da troof.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Did you really expect anything else? When you compare the most advantaged to the least advantaged were the numbers really all that shocking to you?
> 
> This is nothing new, except that there are greater numbers in the most advantaged and less numbers in the least advantaged compared to say a century ago (proportionally speaking among democracies)... human progress is slow...
> 
> Some in modern times think things should change over night and suddenly there is bliss with the blink of an eye, sadly but most likely fortunately, it just isn't the case.


The statistics make perfect sense--those further down the line can't accumulate wealth because their income is eaten up by taxes and purchased items. If you have already accumulated wealth, you have no incentive to just blow it all in some sort of spending glut.

The problem is that people seem to focus on knocking the wealthy off their perches instead of encouraging the others up the ladder.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> The problem is that people seem to focus on knocking the wealthy off their perches instead of encouraging the others up the ladder.


Also the lack of acknowledgement when they ARE moving up the ladder. The focus is usually on how much more the top guy has rather than how much the bottom guy has improved. The lowest income people in this country are in a much better position than they were just a few years ago, and in an amazing position compared to the truly poor in other countries.


----------



## eMacMan

*Great Idea!*

A workable partial solution to many of the 100s of problems with FATCA.
In its entirety:The Isaac Brock Society



> The following is cross-posted from Maple Sandbox, original post by Blaze:
> 
> Anne Frank over at Brock made a brilliant but simple suggestion on Friday for a proposed amendment to the enabling act for the IGA. Anne said:Canada *COULD unilaterally* amend the IGA via the implementation treaty with a simple “notwithstanding” clause to the effect of “Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act or the IGA, no Canadian citizen resident in Canada or other permanent resident of Canada shall be considered to be a “US Person” for purposes of the Act or the IGA”. The IGA would be unamended – the implementation Act would simply gut it of its Charter-violating aspect…
> The Act is amended by inserting after subsection 4(1) thereof the following:
> “section 4 (1.1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act or the Agreement, for all purposes related to the implemen(t)ation of this Act and the Agreement, “US Person” and “Specified US Person” shall not include any person who is a Canadian citizen or is a landed immigrant ordinarily resident in Canada.”
> That simple amendment, made to the implementing Act, would put the ball right back in Treasury’s court. They can deem all Canadian financial institutions non-compliant and bring their own financial house of cards down about their own heads (as withholding, while possibly lawful in the US, will not excuse the withholder in any other jurisdiction, including Canada). It would take a positive act on the part of Treasury to blacklist the entire country. They would not be able to point to 10 cents of revenue that they would be seeking to protect in so doing. Further, as pointed out above, Canada would have more than enough fodder to retaliate in kind given the far larger magnitude of US investments in Canada (most of which, unlike bank accounts, can’t be moved overnight). All they would have to do is pretend that the IGA is compliant and drive on. It would be a brilliant move by the Government were they to allow themselves to be backed into it due to a serious Charter Challenge.​BLAZE ADDS: I ran that idea by a few people and have learned that amendment would be best in the enabling law and not in the IGA because the enabling act can be amended in Parliament, but an IGA amendment would require Finance Canada to submit the revisions to US Treasury for approval.
> 
> So, Friday night I sent this e-mail to NDP Finance Critic Nathan Cullen and Liberal Finance and Revenue Critic Scott Brison who are co-chairs of the Finance Committee with copies to Finance Committee members Murray Rankin (NDP) and Guy Caron (Liberal). I also sent a copy to Elizabeth May.


eMail:


> Thank you Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brison for your position and that of your NDP, Liberal and Green colleagues on FATCA in the House of Commons.
> 
> The Harper Cons and Finance Canada have been consistent in their unwillingness to listen to Canadians on this and many other issues.
> 
> I am writing to you as vice-chairs of the Finance Committee to suggest an amendment to the enabling legislation and/or IGA and to ask if you and/or your party would consider supporting Canadians on a possible constitutional challenge.
> 
> 
> SUGGESTED AMENDMENT:
> Here is a suggested amendment to the FATCA enabling legislation and/or the IGA.
> “Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act or the Agreement, for all purposes related to the implementation of this Act and the Agreement, “US Person” and “Specified US Person” shall not include any person who is a Canadian citizen or legal permanent resident who is ordinarily resident in Canada.”
> 
> With a Conservative majority on the Finance Committee and in the House, I realize this amendment would be likely to fail. *However, it may force Conservatives into voting against it, showing they clearly will not stand up for Canadian citizens and residents who were born in the United States.*


While I would could consider it extremely unlikely, the Cons could actually do this themselves proving that their loyalty extends beyond the banksters and the US Treasury Department.

One way or the other it is absolutely obscene that this sort of sellout should take effect on Canada Day.


----------



## MacDoc

> The lowest income people in this country are in a much better position than they were just a few years ago, and in an amazing position compared to the truly poor in other countries.


I just love the bubble of unreality the right wing lives in.

In fact the lowest sector is worse off than they were.



> . Almost one in ten employed Ontarians (9.3 per cent) worked for the minimum wage in 2012, compared to 3.5 per cent a decade earlier.





> On an international scale, Ontario’s lowest income workers have fallen far behind. Canada’s national average minimum wage amounts to 45 per cent of the wages of full-year, full-time workers – which places the country in the lowest third amongst 27 OECD countries.22 Ontario’s minimum wage comprises only 42 per cent of the wages of full-time workers in the province, ahead of only the Czech Republic, United States, Japan, Estonia, Korea and Luxembourg in this regard.23


http://cupe.on.ca/a5943/CUPE submis...m Wage Advisory Panel - FINAL 16 Oct 2013.pdf

keep those rose colouured glasses handy.....might be a rock coming your way soon enough.


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> I just love the bubble of unreality the right wing lives in.
> 
> In fact the lowest sector is worse off than they were.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://cupe.on.ca/a5943/CUPE submis...m Wage Advisory Panel - FINAL 16 Oct 2013.pdf
> 
> keep those rose colouured glasses handy.....might be a rock coming your way soon enough.


Ah yes, always immediately believe the propaganda greedy unions bash out. Considering the source in this case is very revealing. Gimme, gimmee strikes again and bends the left's version of reality to get their desired outcome.


----------



## heavyall

Macdoc,

1) 2004, the Ontario minimum wage was $7.15. In 2014, it's $11. That's MORE, not less. Increasing the minimum wage always results in more people ON minimum wage, because the people who were making the larger amount do not automatically get a raise.

2) There's a whole great big country out there other than Ontario. Wages have gone up considerably more in many other areas, and there is a labour shortage -- if you want to sit and bitch instead of going where the jobs are, you have only yourself to complain.

3) The median net worth of Canadian families has increased by 45% since 2005.

4) Further to Ontario, it will probably get worse there before it gets better. The Liberals and the industrial unions have done their best to destroy that economy and kill off as many jobs as possible. When that unionized manufacturing plant shuts down because the union is bleeding the company dry, people whose only skill is turing a screw just might be forced to look for minimum wage. When the local economy is so bad, other companies that might be looking at that market simply choose to locate elsewhere. What Ontario needs right away to start turning things around is a sharp reduction (and simplification) in business taxes, and to enact right-to-work legislation.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Further to Ontario, it will probably get worse there before it gets better. The Liberals and the industrial unions have done their best to destroy that economy and kill off as many jobs as possible. When that unionized manufacturing plant shuts down because the union is bleeding the company dry, people whose only skill is turing a screw just might be forced to look for minimum wage. When the local economy is so bad, other companies that might be looking at that market simply choose to locate elsewhere. What Ontario needs right away to start turning things around is a sharp reduction (and simplification) in business taxes, and to enact right-to-work legislation.


Add to that Ontario's misguided green energy policies that are causing the price of energy to skyrocket and giving pause to any business thinking of locating here. The only reason the province has enough electricity to go around now is because it has driven so many industrial electricity users either out of business or out of the province.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> I just love the bubble of unreality the right wing lives in.
> 
> In fact the lowest sector is worse off than they were.
> 
> http://cupe.on.ca/a5943/CUPE submis...m Wage Advisory Panel - FINAL 16 Oct 2013.pdf
> 
> keep those rose colouured glasses handy.....might be a rock coming your way soon enough.


:lmao: CUPE???!!! :lmao:

Now for a a real study.

Statistics Canada - Survey of Financial Security, 2012


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> :lmao: CUPE???!!! :lmao:


People often wonder why CUPE is so interested in raising the minimum wage. By doing so, they decrease competition. It makes employers less likely to take chances with on-the-job training of unskilled workers or bringing in two to three less experienced workers to do the work of one union worker. If you can hire only 1.5 inexperienced minimum wage workers for the price of a union worker, the union worker usually gets the nod.


----------



## screature

*A crushing defeat*

Good riddance to Marois-ism

Halleluiah!!!


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Good riddance to Marois-ism
> 
> Halleluiah!!!


That was rather sweet. I wonder how much Jack Layton's pandering to separatists in the last election will affect the Quebec fortunes of the NDP in the next one in light of this provincial drubbing.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Good riddance to Marois-ism
> 
> Halleluiah!!!


Amen, Brother. :clap::clap:


----------



## CubaMark

Anyone care to dig out the actual numbers... not simply wage levels, but *real wage levels* adjusted for inflation? I doubt that the picture is as rosy as some would like it to be...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Anyone care to dig out the actual numbers... not simply wage levels, but *real wage levels* adjusted for inflation? I doubt that the picture is as rosy as some would like it to be...


Don't be a lazy ass--if you disagree, look it up yourself!


----------



## screature

*Clayton Kennedy, former Attawapiskat co-manager, charged with fraud*
*Partner of Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence* now co-manager of Taykwa Tagamou Nation in Cochrane

Well now isn't this interesting... it seems the Feds weren't so far off the mark from the beginning.



> The former co-manager of Attawapiskat First Nation is facing fraud and theft charges for writing a $51,000 cheque.
> 
> Clayton Kennedy is charged with fraud and theft over $5,000.
> 
> The charges against him are listed on a charge sheet filed March 27 by Det.-Const. Trevor Martin of the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service.
> 
> The document alleges the fraud "by writing a cheque" occurred in Attawapiskat on or about Aug. 28, 2012, and that the stolen money belonged to the Attawapiskat First Nation. The court document does not provide any other information about the cheque...


----------



## eMacMan

I can go back to 1975. 

In Alberta minimum wage was $2.50. 

Houses in Calgary that were selling at $35,000 are now selling in the $500,000 range. 

Decent apartments ran at $100/month and livable could be found at around $85. Today $1000/month is bottom end.

Cheapest of the new cars was about $3000. Today you are looking at around $20,000.

Gasoline was about 50¢/imperial gallon. Today that is around $5. 

At the grocery store nice steaks could be found somewhere in the $1.25 range. Nowadays typically over $10.

Another big difference is that basic personal tax deductions have not come close to keeping up with inflation, and contribution levels for EI and CPP have also increased.

IOW just to keep up with inflation since 1975, minimum wage should be in the $20-25 range.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> *Clayton Kennedy, former Attawapiskat co-manager, charged with fraud*
> *Partner of Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence* now co-manager of Taykwa Tagamou Nation in Cochrane
> 
> Well now isn't this interesting... it seems the Feds weren't so far off the mark from the beginning.


Yep that certainly justifies this governments (mis)treatment of/contempt for Canada's First Nations.








Put another way corruption and politics go hand in hand and it would be incredibly naive to believe either First Nations or Canadian Cons are somehow exempt.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Yep that certainly justifies this governments (mis)treatment of/contempt for Canada's First Nations.
> View attachment 44625
> 
> 
> Put another way corruption and politics go hand in hand and it would be incredibly naive to believe either First Nations or Canadian Cons are somehow exempt.


Don't be ridiculous. Screature was talking about the audit of their finances.


----------



## Macfury

Instead of relying on memory and comparing it to the gold rush economy in Calgary today, just use this:

Inflation Calculator - Bank of Canada

Minimum wage at this point of the year in 1975 was $2.25, and that equals $10.01 today.

That's 6 cents ahead of the province's $9.95 minimum today.







eMacMan said:


> I can go back to 1975.
> 
> In Alberta minimum wage was $2.50.
> 
> Houses in Calgary that were selling at $35,000 are now selling in the $500,000 range.
> 
> Decent apartments ran at $100/month and livable could be found at around $85. Today $1000/month is bottom end.
> 
> Cheapest of the new cars was about $3000. Today you are looking at around $20,000.
> 
> Gasoline was about 50¢/imperial gallon. Today that is around $5.
> 
> At the grocery store nice steaks could be found somewhere in the $1.25 range. Nowadays typically over $10.
> 
> Another big difference is that basic personal tax deductions have not come close to keeping up with inflation, and contribution levels for EI and CPP have also increased.
> 
> IOW just to keep up with inflation since 1975, minimum wage should be in the $20-25 range.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Yep that certainly justifies this governments (mis)treatment of/contempt for Canada's First Nations.
> View attachment 44625
> 
> 
> Put another way corruption and politics go hand in hand and it would be incredibly naive to believe either First Nations or Canadian Cons are somehow exempt.





Macfury said:


> Don't be ridiculous. Screature was talking about the audit of their finances.


Correct answer MF.

ehMacMan never seems to get what people are saying unless they somehow directly agree with one aspect or another of one of his conspiracy theories.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Instead of relying on memory and comparing it to the gold rush economy in Calgary today, just use this:
> 
> Inflation Calculator - Bank of Canada
> 
> Minimum wage at this point of the year in 1975 was $2.25, and that equals $10.01 today.
> 
> That's 6 cents ahead of the province's $9.95 minimum today.


Trouble with inflation calculators is that they give far too much weight to things like the cost of TVs and computers and far too little to the major everyday costs of living. That is a roof over your head, transportation, food, and utilities. All of these with the exception of utilities have increased at a far more rapid rate than the "official" inflation rate.

Even costs of electricity and natural gas do not include the infamous Alberta Gouge Fees. I would be willing to bet that gas and electric rates are annual rate averages and do not reflect the double down rates that occur during high consumption months. For example March natural rates in Southern Alberta were about $9.50 as compared to just over $4 for April. 

I can confirm that my parents were paying ~$22/month for gas and electricity during February of 1975 and my bill for February 2014 was ~$180 range. This with a smaller house, more efficient appliances and a more efficient furnace heating a smaller area. I can also confirm the difference in housing and rental costs and the difference in auto costs.

Since I can get by with out a computer and TV but still need to eat, get around and heat my home my higher though unofficial rate is far more reflective of my cost of living.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Trouble with inflation calculators is that they give far too much weight to things like the cost of TVs and computers and far too little to the major everyday costs of living. That is a roof over your head, transportation, food, and utilities. All of these with the exception of utilities have increased at a far more rapid rate than the "official" inflation rate.
> 
> Even costs of electricity and natural gas do not include the infamous Alberta Gouge Fees. I would be willing to bet that gas and electric rates are annual rate averages and do not reflect the double down rates that occur during high consumption months. For example March natural rates in Southern Alberta were about $9.50 as compared to just over $4 for April.
> 
> I can confirm that my parents were paying ~$22/month for gas and electricity during February of 1975 and my bill for February 2014 was ~$180 range. This with a smaller house, more efficient appliances and a more efficient furnace heating a smaller area. I can also confirm the difference in housing and rental costs and the difference in auto costs.
> 
> Since I can get by with out a computer and TV but still need to eat, get around and heat my home my higher though unofficial rate is far more reflective of my cost of living.


It seems with your over inflated concern with FATCA you have much more to be concerned about than a roof over your head. 

Your post is so out of touch with the reality of economics as to have no understanding of economics at all...

Once again:

Statistics Canada - Survey of Financial Security, 2012

Now go back to your conspiracy theory sites and come back with an equally irrelevant and antiquated post that has no basis in the general principles of economics or the modern world.

It should be great fun. beejacon


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It seems with your over inflated concern with FATCA you have much more to be concerned about than a roof over your head.
> 
> Your post is so out of touch with the reality of economics as to have no understanding of economics at all...
> 
> Once again:
> 
> Statistics Canada - Survey of Financial Security, 2012
> 
> Now go back to your conspiracy theory sites and come back with an equally irrelevant and antiquated post that has no basis in the general principles of economics or the modern world.
> 
> It should be great fun. beejacon


So here's just a suggestion.

Try to go out, rent an apartment, buy an automobile or monthly transit pass, pay your utilities and taxes, and feed yourself. Do it on a $10.00 an hour 32 hour work week that many kids starting out today find themselves faced with. Don't forget about that student loan debt you accrued getting that fancy degree.

Something tells me you would not be able to do it. Thing is back in 1975 that could be done in Calgary on the 2.50/hour 40 hour work week that was then the minimum wage. 

Here's the approximate numbers on that $10/hour minimum wage job.
$16,000/ year gross income
-$750/year Income tax
- ~$500/Year CPP
-$300/year EI

That leaves about $1200/month to live on except in some provinces income tax would take another small bite. In Calgary after paying for accommodation, that would leave you maybe $200/month for food, transportation..... unless you work 2 jobs, share a one bedroom apartment with a house mate or live with your parents. 

Don't matter what the feds claim the inflation rate is. To be brutal, honesty from the national tier of government is almost unheard of. And there ain't no way inflation since 1975 is just a bit over 400%.

And the cons have no idea why so many kids just out of school are living with their parents.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It seems with your over inflated concern with FATCA you have much more to be concerned about than a roof over your head.
> 
> Your post is so out of touch with the reality of economics as to have no understanding of economics at all...
> 
> Once again:
> 
> Statistics Canada - Survey of Financial Security, 2012
> 
> Now go back to your conspiracy theory sites and come back with an equally irrelevant and antiquated post that has no basis in the general principles of economics or the modern world.
> 
> It should be great fun. beejacon



As to FATCA; The cons allowing themselves to be blackmailed into selling out a couple of million Canadians to an IRS extortion racket is a very big deal. Especially when the cons negotiated the agreement with the IRS in secret, completely ignoring the input of those most heavily impacted. They eventually signed this agreement, with the IRS (not the US Government) which allows treaties, banking laws, privacy laws and the Canadian Charter of Rights to be over ridden. As if that is not bad enough they included the enabling legislation within an omnibus bill that con MPs will be forced to vote for. The very nature of an omnibus bill assures that there will be nowhere near the level of debate this sort of sellout of Canadian sovereignty deserves.

Or as Harper himself said: Omnibus bills are anti-democratic. They're a slap in the face to MPs and voters.

This RMR rant from 2012 sums it up nicely. "He knows better but he goes ahead and does it anyway."

RMR: Rick's Rant - Omnibus Bill II: The Sequel - YouTube


----------



## Macfury

I'm always amazed that people talk about the minimum wage as though it should allow someone to raise a family or something. It's bottom dollar for starting-out unskilled labour, not something to base your life on.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I'm always amazed that people talk about the minimum wage as though it should allow someone to raise a family or something. It's bottom dollar for starting-out unskilled labour, not something to base your life on.


Perhaps but to claim it has kept pace with inflation is total BS.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Perhaps but to claim it has kept pace with inflation is total BS.


It has. However, you can't continue to live in Calgary, which has grown enormously.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Perhaps but to claim it has kept pace with inflation is total BS.


That's right, because it's EXCEEDED inflation.

Back when I made minimum wage (early 80s), there was no way anyone could buy a car or a house or raise a family on it, and it wasn't supposed to. It was a MINIMUM. The bare bottom worst case scenario that you took when you absolutely needed it. You didn't stay on it. You COULDN'T stay on it long term. These days, people do stay on it, because they actually can.


----------



## eMacMan

As to Harpers BS claim that the confidential banking information collected by the CRA under FATCA will be kept secure, see this thread:
http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/119865-heartbleed-security-hole-ssl.html

Yep the CRA was vulnerable and that's before they pass it along to the IRS who will then pass it on to the FBI, CIA, NSA, HSA..................


----------



## Dr.G.

Trigger warnings: the latest threat to academic freedom - The Globe and Mail

Luckily, here at Memorial University, I was able to get the collected works of Gerry Macnutt, may he rest in peace, approved for inclusion in my courses. He would have been pleased that I stood up to "the Man" and defended his writings.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Trigger warnings: the latest threat to academic freedom - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Luckily, here at Memorial University, I was able to get the collected works of Gerry Macnutt, may he rest in peace, approved for inclusion in my courses. *He would have been pleased that I stood up to "the Man" and defended his writings*.


A friend of my sister, who is five years older than me, wanted to do her Masters English Lit thesis at Carleton University on the lyrics of Elvis Costello, but was denied permission.

So in the bigger picture of things, what does your post say?

It is all relevant to who is in charge at a given "institution", nothing more and nothing less.

I really don't see your point within the context that I just framed.

"The Man" is simply the person in charge and that can be Stephen Harper or Vladimir Putin, either way, they are "The Man", yet they get called the same thing. 

"The Man" is relative and at the end of the day is constantly shifting.

And despite the common adage, not all "men are created equal". It is a myth. All people are created equal in terms of rights before the law but beyond that it is a complete myth/fallacy.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> A friend of my sister, who is five years older than me, wanted to do her Masters English Lit thesis at Carleton University on the lyrics of Elvis Costello, but was denied permission.
> 
> So in the bigger picture of things, what does your post say?
> 
> It is all relevant to who is in charge at a given "institution", nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> I really don't see your point within the context that I just framed.
> 
> "The Man" is simply the person in charge and that can be Stephen Harper or Vladimir Putin, either way, they are "The Man", yet they get called the same thing.
> 
> "The Man" is relative and at the end of the day is constantly shifting.
> 
> And despite the common adage, not all "men are created equal". It is a myth. All people are created equal in terms of rights before the law but beyond that it is a complete myth/fallacy.


Screature, re "The Man" and the writings of Gerry Macnutt, that was a running gag between the two of us before he tragically died. Some others who knew Macnutt might understand the context of the picture and my comments.

Luckily, with academic freedom here at Memorial, no prof has been censored as to what he/she has asked students to read for his/her course.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Screature, re "The Man" and the writings of Gerry Macnutt, that was a running gag between the two of us before he tragically died. Some others who knew Macnutt might understand the context of the picture and my comments.
> 
> Luckily, with academic freedom here at Memorial, no prof has been censored as to what he/she has asked students to read for his/her course.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Well that certainly underscores my comment about "The Man" being a relative appellation.

But thanks for the clarification.

Peace to you as well my friend.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well that certainly underscores my comment about "The Man" being a relative appellation.
> 
> But thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Peace to you as well my friend.


Check the titles on the doctored photo, screature.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Check the titles on the doctored photo, screature.


Sorry MF I don't see any photo just a graphic with a caption saying:



> (Cinders McLeod for The Globe and Mail)


Is this what you are talking about?

It has been a really long hard day at work and I may be missing some double entendres or other subtle points.

Care to clarify? At this point my "brain hurts" and I don't know where you are coming from.

Edit: Ok upon closer inspection I see what you are talking about and now I get Dr. G's joke.

Gosh, sometimes it is hard to keep up when one is tired.

I should go to bed except I am too tired to sleep...

Sorry Dr. G.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Edit: Ok upon closer inspection I see what you are talking about and now I get Dr. G's joke.


The gag photo is years old, screature.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The gag photo is years old, screature.


I think I have seen the photo before but I did not notice the editing of the photo and the book inscriptions, all I saw was Marc and noticed what a hansom man he is and what a jolly fellow he seems to be/is... 

Mea culpa.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Well that certainly underscores my comment about "The Man" being a relative appellation.
> 
> But thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Peace to you as well my friend.





Macfury said:


> Check the titles on the doctored photo, screature.


Yes, someone, I can't remember whom, took my picture and some pictures that Gerry Macnutt had posted of himself, and Photoshopped them onto the books in front of me. Both Gerry and I played along and thus, "Life According to Macnutt" was born. While he and I did not agree on most issues, I do miss him and his wit and common sense on certain things (e.g., the environment).


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The gag photo is years old, screature.


I still am trying to figure out who did this Photoshop job of the original picture.


----------



## SINC

I recall this photo's first appearance and when you first posted it, you did indeed thank the person responsible for conjuring up the photo in photo shop, but like you, I cannot remember. I am going to continue to think about it and perhaps between us we can solve this mystery Dr. G.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> I recall this photo's first appearance and when you first posted it, you did indeed thank the person responsible for conjuring up the photo in photo shop, but like you, I cannot remember. I am going to continue to think about it and perhaps between us we can solve this mystery Dr. G.


For some reason, the names of PosterBoy and Heart come to mind. Still, it's a mystery that turned out well.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> For some reason, the names of PosterBoy and Heart come to mind. Still, it's a mystery that turned out well.


Vacuvox?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Vacuvox?


That does not ring a bell, Macfury. The same person put glasses on a picture of one of our doxies. Then, that picture took off like wildfire and a huge image of it hangs in The National Gallery in Ottawa.


----------



## Macfury

I thought this photo was from the Africa trip...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I thought this photo was from the Africa trip...


Good one, Macfury. :clap::lmao::clap:


----------



## CubaMark

_"The Information Commissioner of Canada has found evidence of systemic interference with access to information requests by three Conservative staff members... but she notes that she can only forward the matter to the current Public Works minister [the very office that committed the offences!] who in turn can refer it to the RCMP." _

*3 Tory Staffers Interfered In Access To Information: Watchdog*










The Information Commissioner of Canada has found evidence of "systemic interference" with access to information requests by three Conservative staff members, and suggests bringing in the police.

But the Public Works Department, where the interference occurred, says it won't be referring the matter to the RCMP because police did not lay charges in a similar case.

Suzanne Legault delivered her second report Thursday following an investigation into cases that date back to 2009 in the office of cabinet minister Christian Paradis, who held the Public Works portfolio at the time.

(HuffPo)​


----------



## CubaMark

*Suspended senator Brazeau charged with assault, threats, drug possession*










_Suspended senator Patrick Brazeau is facing new legal challenges following what police are describing as a violent domestic disturbance early Thursday.

Just a day before a court date was to be set in another assault case against him, Brazeau arrived at the Gatineau courthouse in handcuffs hours after police responded to a 911 call.

Wearing a dark green shirt, black jacket and pants and dress shoes, Brazeau was escorted into the courthouse from a van with dark tinted windows.

He is charged with two counts of assault, uttering death threats, cocaine possession and breach of bail conditions.

Police said a 39-year-old man was arrested after an incident that took place around 4 a.m. at a home in Gatineau.

"It was an altercation between a man and a woman," said Gatineau police spokesman Pierre Lanthier._

(CalgaryHerald)


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## MacDoc

State funeral for a finance minister???

Flaherty might have been a fine fellow and no question dedicated.... but this smacks of political expendiency from a party with very poor optics.

Putting him on the same level as Layton??
...give me a break.


----------



## BigDL

MacDoc said:


> State funeral for a finance minister???
> 
> Flaherty might have been a fine fellow and no question dedicated.... but this smacks of political expendiency from a party with very poor optics.
> 
> Putting him on the same level as Layton??
> ...give me a break.


I was very fatigued with the pomp and circumstance for Mr. Layton by this time after his death, and I had an affinity for the man.

At least the Flaherty Family may take some solace from the gesture.

I fear OGL may be trying to change the channel though.


----------



## SINC

MacDoc said:


> State funeral for a finance minister???
> 
> Flaherty might have been a fine fellow and no question dedicated.... but this smacks of political expendiency from a party with very poor optics.
> 
> Putting him on the same level as Layton??
> ...give me a break.





BigDL said:


> I was very fatigued with the pomp and circumstance for Mr. Layton by this time after his death, and I had an affinity for the man.
> 
> At least the Flaherty Family may take some solace from the gesture.
> 
> I fear OGL may be trying to change the channel though.


You two ought to be ashamed. Incredibly stupid posts for supposedly smart men. Involving the North Korean leader is a sure admission of stupidity. Layton too would be disappointed.

That is all I have to say to people who make such offensive remarks. tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Agreed, SINC. No class at all.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> You two ought to be ashamed. Incredibly stupid posts for supposedly smart men. Involving the North Korean leader is a sure admission of stupidity. Layton too would be disappointed.
> 
> That is all I have to say to people who make such offensive remarks. tptptptp


I agree that the two postings were insensitive.


----------



## Dr.G.

Disability community â€˜has lost a true champion' in Jim Flaherty - The Globe and Mail

"There are 3.8 million Canadians living with a disability, including one of Mr. Flaherty’s triplet sons. John has a severe developmental disability, having suffered brain damage when he contracted encephalitis as a baby."


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> You two ought to be ashamed. Incredibly stupid posts for supposedly smart men. Involving the North Korean leader is a sure admission of stupidity. Layton too would be disappointed.
> 
> That is all I have to say to people who make such offensive remarks. tptptptp





Macfury said:


> Agreed, SINC. No class at all.





Dr.G. said:


> I agree that the two postings were insensitive.


These two have no class or humanity about them when it comes to politics they are always just barking dogs with nothing positive to offer.

So it is not surprising that they make these comments, they make them out of rabid partisanship.

They forget that Stephen Harper offered a state funeral for Jake Layton (something he did not have to do) and was turned down by Olivia Chow.

And yes in terms of commitment to his country and the actual accomplishments he made I will hold Jim Flaherty in *at least* as high regard as Jack Layton, after all he was never in government, never had to make tough choices that actually affected people. 

Jack was a likeable fellow as well but when it comes to actually running the country and the gruelling schedule that Jim Flaherty had he is of no comparison in that regard, he was never in the position of bearing that responsibility, so MacDoc and BigDL need to put things into perspective.

But they won't because they have blinders on and can see things only one way.

I suspect that if Jack were alive today he would be in full support of Jim having a State funeral, because he had much more class, decency and humanity than these two will ever have.


----------



## MacDoc

**** off screature - your crocodile tears and indignant outrage are misplaced - your blind devotion to all things Harper blinkers you to the obvious political opportunism that many many others see as well.

Oh it's Jack and Jim now - first name basis.....what a ****ing joke the right wing has become that you need to trumpet up a heart attack in the face dismal party optics.

I stated my opinion of his unfortunate death on the RIP thread or didn't you bother to read that.

His death does not change his legacy and that of his party ..mostly at Harper's door and mostly detested by the majority of Canadians.

To trumpet him how as some great wizard of finance and great Canadian is hilarious....is this the same guy that advised Harper on "what economic meltdown".??? How short term the memories are.

I actually thought he was a moderating force on Herr Harper's destructive tendencies especially later on. 

YOU can't seem to distinguish between distain for the political opportunism of Harper's move ( and I'm hardly alone in this ) and are reading it as disrespect for Flaherty a person who unfortunately died young of a heart attack.
There are dozens of persons a day that die under unfortunate circumstance....where is your tears and rending of garments????.
...or are they reserved for your party icons and useful political opportunities??

It's actually just one more example of Harper flouting Canadian traditions for political gain ....state funerals being reserved ( in my mind a waste of money all around anyways ) for sitting ministers.
They are elected to do a job and get paid and maybe overpaid for it.
How is that deserving of a state funeral??? 
More pomp and circumstance waste of tax payers money.

Get a life. 



> But Please???
> 
> I try to be a respectful person, but the reporting of Flaherty’s death and a STATE funeral seems a bit much!!
> 
> I appreciate how bad the Tories could use a hero to lift their fallen fortunes, and get Harper off the front page scandal sheets—but please??? Being a nice guy is so rare in Tory ranks that discovering one means we must offer them a State funeral?? Flaherty was no Jack Layton—and left Ontario financially crippled after acting as their Finance Minister!! I realize we have had a slow week with respect to news events-and overplaying Flaherty’s death was good for many news outlets budgets, but the very folksy little tid-bits about a Tory Finance Minister that had Canada in the red before the recession even hit, could have been spared from being shared on prime time??
> 
> Other than being graded a “nice guy” by some in political circles—I see no evidence Flaherty is deserving of a State Funeral—unless running deficits for 8 straight years, and breaking Mulroney’s $40 billion dollar deficit record are regarded as positive happenings???
> 
> Stewart Shields
> 
> 
> Saturday, April 12, 2014
> 
> Jim Flaherty state funeral to be held Wednesday in Toronto Normally reserved for sitting ministers, prime minister can offer distinction to eminent Canadian
> 
> I am rather surprised that everyone is yapping about the former finance minister now that he is dead as some sort of superstar since he was part of Mr. Harper's attack on the democracy we once had in Alberta and in Canada.
> 
> I have to agree with Stewart's feelings here that this is being overblown. The former federal finance minister did a job. He did it for Harper and crew. I don't think he did much for ordinary Canadians. I don't believe all the praise and gibberish that everyone is sprouting. And while I guess he must have friends in politics I don't believe it is necessary to give him a state funeral.* I think this is overkill and designed to prop up the sagging Tory mattress that is shortly due for dumping.*
> 
> But there you go.
> *The spin we have to listen to is astonishing and yet we are to endure it without laughing.
> The powers that be can do whatever they want to do and they have decided to turn the death of a former finance minister into a media extravaganza to get over the facts of their Senate hires being in the bad books of Canadians.
> 
> What these politicians won't do to turn the laser beam of our attention away from their misdeeds. *
> 
> This Flaherty guy may have been nice, but in my mind he was nothing other than a puppet for Harper and crew.


Reading Children's Books: Jim Flaherty state funeral to be held Wednesday in Toronto Normally reserved for sitting ministers, prime minister can offer distinction to eminent Canadian


----------



## MacDoc

*Ask an environment scientist about the Finance Dept "legacy"*



> Scientists say the closure of some of the world's finest fishery, ocean and environmental libraries by the Harper government has been so chaotic that irreplaceable collections of intellectual capital built by Canadian taxpayers for future generations has been lost forever.


The Tyee â€“ What's Driving Chaotic Dismantling of Canada's Science Libraries?



> In Harper Budget, Big Oil Gets Subsidized While Environmental Monitoring Is Gutted
> 2011/03/11
> tags: big oil, budget, Canadian Youth Climate Coalition, citizens climate lobby, Stephen Harper, subsidies
> by Christine
> 
> Cameron Fenton from the Canadian Youth Climate Coalition developed this helpful diagram to illustrate the dramatic way the Harper government is shifting taxpayer’s money. In the upside-down world of our current federal government, funding is slashed to programs that benefit all Canadians, like environmental monitoring. Instead, this government prefers to keep padding the pockets of their corporate pals, and to carry on a concerted campaign to turn Canada’s criminal justice system into a clone of the dysfunctional America one by increasing spending on jails by over $500 million. This, at a time when statistics show the Canadian crime rate is dropping


In Harper Budget, Big Oil Gets Subsidized While Environmental Monitoring Is Gutted | 350 or bust

some legacy ...the list is in no way complete and the dissatisfaction of Canadians for Harper et al obvious in the polls.

of course there is the Senate ...aside from the considerable costs of Harper's myriad appointments ....not much can be laid at the feet of Finance tho one would have thought a prudent head minister might demur.
Just Harper....as chief architect of the mess.


----------



## screature

MacDoc said:


> **** off screature - your crocodile tears and indignant outrage are misplaced - your blind devotion to all things Harper blinkers you to the obvious political opportunism that many many others see as well.
> 
> Oh it's Jack and Jim now - first name basis.....what a ****ing joke the right wing has become that you need to trumpet up a heart attack in the face dismal party optics.
> 
> I stated my opinion of his unfortunate death on the RIP thread or didn't you bother to read that.
> 
> His death does not change his legacy and that of his party ..mostly at Harper's door and mostly detested by the majority of Canadians.
> 
> To trumpet him how as some great wizard of finance and great Canadian is hilarious....is this the same guy that advised Harper on "what economic meltdown".??? How short term the memories are.
> 
> I actually thought he was a moderating force on Herr Harper's destructive tendencies especially later on.
> 
> YOU can't seem to distinguish between distain for the political opportunism of Harper's move ( and I'm hardly alone in this ) and are reading it as disrespect for Flaherty a person who unfortunately died young of a heart attack.
> There are dozens of persons a day that die under unfortunate circumstance....where is your tears and rending of garments????.
> ...or are they reserved for your party icons and useful political opportunities??
> 
> It's actually just one more example of Harper flouting Canadian traditions for political gain ....state funerals being reserved ( in my mind a waste of money all around anyways ) for sitting ministers.
> They are elected to do a job and get paid and maybe overpaid for it.
> How is that deserving of a state funeral???
> More pomp and circumstance waste of tax payers money.
> 
> Get a life.
> 
> Reading Children's Books: Jim Flaherty state funeral to be held Wednesday in Toronto Normally reserved for sitting ministers, *prime minister can offer distinction to eminent Canadian*


**** you MacDoc....tptptptp. Like you have any idea what the majority of Canadians think or feel. 

Take a look at what is being written and said about Jim Flaherty even, by the opposition and you will find almost across the board (despite your pathetic Reading Children's Books blog link) it has been positive, even more so internationally. 

You have no class or decency about you whatsoever when it comes to politics you are just a blowhard filled with vitriol constantly doing nothing other than spitting bile and venom as your current post clearly displayed. Get stuffed and you get a life.  tptptptp


----------



## Rps

The joys of mature political discussion. Life is politics and as such we all have our opinions .... Some spoken more strongly than others, some at a more appropriate time than others. Can we at least put our politics aside on the death of Mr. Flaherty, as some have done, and not read too much into the dogma of others with respect to the optics of politics at this time ..... In other words .... Let us be nice.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> The joys of mature political discussion. Life is politics and as such we all have our opinions .... Some spoken more strongly than others, some at a more appropriate time than others. Can we at least put our politics aside on the death of Mr. Flaherty, as some have done, and not read too much into the dogma of others with respect to the optics of politics at this time ..... In other words .... Let us be nice.


Indeed it would be nice if could be that way but MacDoc and BigDL seem incapable of such behaviour.

It was kept very much so until MacDoc and BigDL came on the scene.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> The joys of mature political discussion. Life is politics and as such we all have our opinions .... Some spoken more strongly than others, some at a more appropriate time than others. Can we at least put our politics aside on the death of Mr. Flaherty, as some have done, and not read too much into the dogma of others with respect to the optics of politics at this time ..... In other words .... Let us be nice.


:clap::clap:


----------



## screature

To suggest, as MacDoc and BigDL did, that the government is trying to take advantage of Jim Flaherty's death is cynicism at it's worst and is based on, as I said before, pure rabid partisanship.

Not to mention the funneral will happen at the beginning of the 2 week Easter break so it obviously is no way a means to "try and change the channel", again to suggest so is purely cynical and meant to be self serving for those that oppose the government. Those that suggest it are the ones trying to be politically opportunistic.

The Prime Minister has the discretion to offer a state funeral to any eminent Canadian. Jim Flaherty fits that bill.

It doesn't matter that he isn't a sitting Minister, he was only 3 weeks out of being one when he died.

To say "give me a break" at a State Funeral being offered to an eminent Canadian like Jim Flaherty is a deliberate slap in the in the face to those that knew him or worked with him or respected him or liked him. 

MacDoc knew what he was doing when he said that. It was an insult and meant to be provocative... in terms of being provocative he certainly got what he wanted (and deserves) from me.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> The joys of mature political discussion. Life is politics and as such we all have our opinions .... Some spoken more strongly than others, some at a more appropriate time than others. Can we at least put our politics aside on the death of Mr. Flaherty, as some have done, and not read too much into the dogma of others with respect to the optics of politics at this time ..... In other words .... Let us be nice.


Well put. History will eventually put things into the correct perspective.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Well put. History will eventually put things into the *correct perspective*.


And I dare say we know that now, his stewardship guided Canada through the Great Recession better than almost any other country in the world. That will be his legacy.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> And I dare say we know that now, his stewardship guided Canada through the Great Recession better than almost any other country in world. That will be his legacy.


Absolutely. The laundry list of the left's petty frustrations and impotent anger will have long been forgotten.


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting that Liepert beat Anders in riding nomination



> ...
> During the race, Conservative party officials chastised Anders for what they said were misleading phone calls. His campaign placed calls to party members that might have left the impression they were coming from Liepert's campaign. If the target of the call was unsure about who they would support, the caller proceeded to criticize Liepert.
> 
> Liepert said the fact the negative campaign failed should serve as a warning to other candidates across the country. "We're not into negative politics and I hope this is a good lesson for everyone running going forward that you should run on your record," he said.
> 
> "Talk about what you've achieved, what constituents want and stay away from the negative stuff because if there was one thing I heard from residents it was their disgust with the negativity."
> ...


Ron Liepert beats Rob Anders, tells Jason Kenney to 'mind his own business' - Calgary - CBC News


Not too fond of either of these gents although Anders did have the decency to not vote on Bill C31's first reading. C31 is the budgetary omnibus bill that includes enabling legislation for the FATCA IGA and its built in banking privacy violations, and Charter of Rights violations. BTW Kudos to the former Conservative from St. Albert, Rathgeber who voted NO on C31.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Interesting that Liepert beat Anders in riding nomination
> 
> Ron Liepert beats Rob Anders, tells Jason Kenney to 'mind his own business' - Calgary - CBC News
> 
> 
> Not too fond of either of these gents although Anders did have the decency to not vote on Bill C31's first reading. C31 is the budgetary omnibus bill that includes enabling legislation for the FATCA IGA and its built in banking privacy violations, and Charter of Rights violations. BTW Kudos to the former Conservative from St. Albert, Rathgeber who voted NO on C31.


Glad to see Ander's gone. I have met him and always felt he had a sense of self importance about him... I've met others like him in that regard... people who are locally "famous" but who are "simply big fish swimming in a small pond"... I have no time for them.

Good riddance Rob Anders... the CPC and the country will be better off without you in Parliament.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Glad to see Ander's gone. I have met him and always felt he had a sense of self importance about him... I've met others like him in that regard... people who are locally "famous" but who are "simply big fish swimming in a small pond"... I have no time for them.
> 
> Good riddance Rob Anders... the CPC and the country will be better off without you in Parliament.


Well, at least he won't be criticized for falling asleep during a committee meeting anymore.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Well, at least he won't be criticized for falling asleep during a committee meeting anymore.


Well after Oct. 2015 at least. Before that who knows.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Glad to see Ander's gone. I have met him and always felt he had a sense of self importance about him... I've met others like him in that regard... people who are locally "famous" but who are "simply big fish swimming in a small pond"... I have no time for them.
> 
> Good riddance Rob Anders... the CPC and the country will be better off without you in Parliament.


That may very well be, but I hope to god that they don't elect Ron Liepert. He is the original egotistical a-hole. He holds the electorate and the media in disdain and has the worst facial sneer in politics when looking at you. He was a bad politician provincially, a worse Alberta health minister and will make the very worst of MPs.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> That may very well be, but I hope to god that they don't elect Ron Liepert. He is the original egotistical a-hole. He holds the electorate and the media in disdain and has the worst facial sneer in politics when looking at you. He was a bad politician provincially, a worse Alberta health minister and will make the very worst of MPs.


He's also NOT a Conservative in any way. He just wears the blue because no one will vote for him if he wears orange.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> That may very well be, but I hope to god that they don't elect Ron Liepert. He is the original egotistical a-hole. He holds the electorate and the media in disdain and has the worst facial sneer in politics when looking at you. He was a bad politician provincially, a worse Alberta health minister and will make the very worst of MPs.





heavyall said:


> He's also NOT a Conservative in any way. He just wears the blue because no one will vote for him if he wears orange.


To tell you the truth I don't know anything about Ron Liepert, I had to Google him to see what he looks like, I see what you mean about the sneer.

Well it is unfortunate then that they didn't have a better choice in that EDA, but I am still glad to know that Anders will be gone after 2015, he has been an embarrassment just a few too many times in his years of public service to say the least.

There needs to be new blood...

So SINC, are you saying that if you were voting in Rob Anders former riding you would vote Lib, NDP or Green just because Ron Liepert is the CPC candidate for that riding?

Or would you just destroy your ballot?


----------



## BigDL

The scary part regarding the Liepert v Anders nomination battle in the Calgary Signal Hill riding is the fact, *nearly one third of the eligible CPC members,* did not vote.

In an apparently contentious high profile riding association election nearly one third of Conservative voted for "none of the above." 

You would think people would be motivated to put their mouth where their money is?

Wait a second, maybe Conservatives sitting on their hands at home is not such a bad thing...after all! :clap:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> You would think people would be motivated to put their mouth where their money is?
> 
> Wait a second, maybe Conservatives sitting on their hands at home is not such a bad thing...after all! :clap:


You're a fool to come to that conclusion. They had already decided to support whichever nominee prevailed.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> You're a fool to come to that conclusion. They had already decided to support whichever nominee prevailed.


I see it takes a Torontonian to grasp the subtly of Alberta politics.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> You're a fool to come to that conclusion. They had already decided to support whichever nominee prevailed.


That's how it's worked for me too. While I do have my preference among the local choices, the real bottom line is the way our system is set up the number of seats for the party you support is far more important than who sits in that seat.

The problem in Liepert's case is, a vote for him is a vote AGAINST the CPC, because he's probably just going to cross the floor right after the election anyway.


----------



## heavyall

*RCMP drop investigation into Nigel Wright over $90,000 Duffy cheque*



> Stephen Harper’s former chief of staff Nigel Wright is no longer being investigated by the RCMP over his $90,000 payment to Senator Mike Duffy.
> 
> RCMP spokeswoman Corporal Lucy Shorey said the force has decided the evidence does not support charging Mr. Wright.


RCMP drop investigation into Nigel Wright over $90,000 Duffy cheque - The Globe and Mail

I said that from the beginning. Regardless of how you feel about Duffy, the accusation that someone from the PMO paying back his expenses was in any way untoward was ridiculous. Calling it fraud was extreme partisanship not based on reality.

Somehow I doubt that the vindication will get anywhere near the same airtime that the initial slander did.


----------



## SINC

That would be the typical reaction of the leftist media, CBC-TV in particular. Once again the lefties lose and if you will pardon the pun, rightly so.


----------



## screature

At the beginning of the Easter break at the House of Commons, this just HAS to be a way that the CPC is trying to "change the channel." beejacon....

Just like the death of Jim Flaherty...


----------



## Macfury

Glad that's over. Guess that ends the best part of the "senate scandal" that the opposition was praying would take hold.



heavyall said:


> *RCMP drop investigation into Nigel Wright over $90,000 Duffy cheque*
> 
> 
> 
> RCMP drop investigation into Nigel Wright over $90,000 Duffy cheque - The Globe and Mail
> 
> I said that from the beginning. Regardless of how you feel about Duffy, the accusation that someone from the PMO paying back his expenses was in any way untoward was ridiculous. Calling it fraud was extreme partisanship not based on reality.
> 
> Somehow I doubt that the vindication will get anywhere near the same airtime that the initial slander did.


----------



## eMacMan

Just to review. Nigel Wright spent $90,000 of his own money, perhaps to keep Sen. Duffy out of jail, perhaps in a failed attempt to keep the Senators actions from reflecting on the Harper.

The RCMP has declared this was entirely legal and I suspect this is probably so. As to it being ethical, that would depend entirely on your personal ethical codes. 

It did get me to thinking about what would probably have happened to any politically disconnected peasants, had they dared to contribute to a defense fund for the post Mayorthorpe RCMP witch hunt victims.

OTOH if the Cons were so certain this was all on the up & up why did they resign Wright?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Just to review. Nigel Wright spent $90,000 of his own money, perhaps to keep Sen. Duffy out of jail, perhaps in a failed attempt to keep the Senators actions from reflecting on the Harper.
> 
> The RCMP has declared this was entirely legal and I suspect this is probably so. As to it being ethical, that would depend entirely on your personal ethical codes.
> 
> It did get me to thinking about what would probably have happened to any politically disconnected peasants, had they dared to contribute to a defense fund for the post Mayorthorpe RCMP witch hunt victims.
> 
> OTOH if the Cons were so certain this was all on the up & up why did they resign Wright?


Just to review the RCMP determined:



> “Upon completion of the investigation, we have concluded that the evidence gathered does not support criminal charges against Mr. Wright."


But never mind, keep wearing your tinfoil hat that you seem to think serves you so well.... 

I would expect nothing less or more.


----------



## screature

> TORONTO - Here is a text of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's tribute at the funeral of former finance minister Jim Flaherty, as provided by the Prime Minister's Office:
> 
> Gov. Gen. Johnston, Lt. Gov. Onley, colleagues from the Parliament of Canada, distinguished representatives of the diplomatic corps and of provincial and municipal government, acquaintances and admirers of The Honourable Jim Flaherty from across the country, dear friends.
> 
> As I said last week, what a sad time this is in the life of our country.
> 
> Only a few weeks ago, we had the occasion to issue political tributes to an extraordinary colleague upon the announcement of his intention to retire from public life, with the full expectation of another life ahead of him.
> 
> Little did we know that we would be here today, with that future torn from him, and for us to deliver more profound reflections.
> 
> This has been a traumatic event for many of us, but, of course, none more so than Jim's family.
> 
> Quinn, Galen, John, and especially Christine, we have lost a partner in politics, but you have lost a partner in life.
> 
> The turnout these past couple of days may be a small consolation, but it is the tip of the iceberg in a deep ocean of admiration and affection for Jim, and of much goodwill, kind thoughts and many prayers for you.
> 
> Please, take that to heart and God bless you.
> 
> For, I say, we have all lost a remarkable figure.
> 
> There are so many ways I could describe The Honourable Jim Flaherty.
> 
> He was a man who highly principled and ruthlessly pragmatic, combative but engaging, smart and educated, while never assuming that he knew it all.
> 
> He could be hard-headed, yet also soft-hearted.
> 
> He could display a quick and biting temper, but, far more often, a deep and gentle sense of humour.
> 
> He particularly enjoyed — and delivered — many jokes about his own shortness.
> 
> He observed that he never got in the way of his own power points, but, short as he was, upon the world stage he strode like a giant.
> 
> I do not say these things to imply that Jim was a contradictory person.
> 
> He was not in any way.
> 
> As a human being he was the complete package.
> 
> And, I am sure, these last few days, he has been genuinely enjoying all the tributes and some of them he even believes.
> 
> But, in all seriousness, it is a fact that Jim, as fiercely partisan as he was, was also genuinely liked and respected by his opponents, liked by his enemies.
> 
> That's something in this business, something I envy — I can't even get my friends to like me.
> 
> There has been much talk about Jim's record and legacy, especially the softer side of that record.
> 
> Jim was not much for handouts.
> 
> But, as a true conservative, he believed in helping people who could not help themselves, or who had suffered misfortune.
> 
> And he especially believed in a hand up for those who needed, but only lacked, an opportunity, which is why he had a particular passion for, among others, the disabled.
> 
> I believe no single politician in the life of this country has done more for the disabled and their families than Jim Flaherty.
> 
> I could point to numerous initiatives, but Jim was most proud of his role in building the Durham Abilities Centre, dismissed by some at the time as a pork-barrel project, but now recognized as a tremendous regional institution and monument.
> 
> However, when all is said and done, Jim's most important contribution to our country, without doubt, came by virtue of his long service as minister of finance, especially by virtue of being minister of finance during and after the great global recession of 2008-2009.
> 
> I ask you to indulge me for a few moments to talk about that role, because we are talking about Jim making history, and I had the ultimate, front-row seat.
> 
> It began back in the fall of 2005.
> 
> Mutual friends told me that Jim Flaherty wanted to come to see me to talk about his political future.
> 
> I had met Jim many times, but knew him really only through the strong, positive, testimony of others.
> 
> We had lunch in my office.
> 
> Jim told me he wanted a change and was interested in federal politics, but was a bit sheepish about the fact he had not supported my leadership campaign.
> 
> I told him that meant nothing now, because I believed there would be a federal election soon and that, contrary to most, I thought it more likely than not that we would win.
> 
> I also thought we badly needed someone with his abilities and experience.
> 
> Of course, I had Finance in mind from the beginning, but Jim was actually, somewhat surprised, somewhat reticent about the portfolio at first.
> 
> Though, it's safe to say, it wasn't long before he decided he would never let go of it.
> 
> The relationship between a prime minister and his finance minister is always a special one.
> 
> But this, I can tell you, was more special than most.
> 
> Despite our very different educational backgrounds and life experiences, Jim and I were philosophically in sync on just about everything.
> 
> But, on the specifics of the many and complex priorities before us, we often had, at least initially, different views.
> 
> Now, we WASPs sometimes define an Irishman as someone, "who may not know where he stands, but is always ready to fight for it."
> 
> Well, no one could ever accuse Jim of not having an opinion, and he certainly was always prepared to fight for it.
> 
> As we talked through budget planning meetings, our divergences always narrowed and usually vanished.
> 
> When they didn't, occasionally I imposed a final decision.
> 
> Occasionally, I decided he was probably right.
> 
> And occasionally, I decided he was wrong but let him have his way, just because I got so tired of arguing with him.
> 
> By November 2008, Jim and I had both concluded, not easily and certainly not what would have been expected, that the calamity befalling the global economic and financial system meant, among others things, that we had to run a deficit.
> 
> That is, not merely allow a modest deficit, but deliberately engineer as large a deficit as could be reasonably run, as a response to a collapsing marketplace.
> 
> So this, Jim did.
> 
> Canada announced one of the world's larger stimulus packages and he engineered the money out the door far more rapidly than most.
> 
> This people remember well.
> 
> What they remember less well is that that was not all there was to it.
> 
> Jim knew that, in the past, even modest, short-term deficit spending had resulted in severe, long-term fiscal problems.
> 
> So, even as he pushed out stimulus spending, he made changes in longer-term expenditure policies that would reduce their growth path.
> 
> And then, there was what Jim did not do.
> 
> He did not use the crisis to build new bureaucracies, to create permanent new programs, to recklessly enhance entitlements or to reverse any tax cut that had been legislated.
> 
> He took other actions in housing and banking to ensure even greater long-term stability in our financial system.
> 
> And he put constraints on any excessive experimentations in monetary policy.
> 
> The result is this.
> 
> While, at one time, Canada was no better than middle of the pack, today in an uncertain world, Canada will have a balanced budget years ahead of others, with low debt and low taxes, and is recognized to be the best managed major developed economy.
> 
> That, my friends, is Jim Flaherty's legacy for this country.
> 
> It was something to see, up close.
> 
> A couple of years back, in Jim's presence, a colleague tried to put me on the spot by saying, "Prime minister, I think Jim Flaherty is the best finance minister in the world; do you think Jim Flaherty is the best finance minister in the world?"
> 
> Always being reluctant to shell out too much praise, but not wanting to disappoint Jim, I thought about it and found a line that met both our approvals.
> 
> I said, "Minister, I don't know for sure in absolute terms if Jim is the best finance minister in the world, but he is without a doubt the best finance minister per inch in the world."
> 
> But, friends, there is a back story to all of this.
> 
> As early as 2010, Jim said to me: "Prime Minister, I want to step down as finance minister and I don't want to run again. I've been in public life for 15 years now. I want to go into the private sector, so that I can make some money and put more aside for my family. But," he added, "I won't do it unless I think we're out of the woods and the job of getting back into balance is done."
> 
> And every year after that, without any prompting from me, the call would come and Jim would say, "Prime minister, I'm still worried about the global economy and we're not yet in balance. I want to do one more budget."
> 
> And so he did year after year, work away on the next phase of the Economic Action Plan, even as, in the past couple of years, it became more and more difficult for him, and sometimes hard to watch, as everyone of you could plainly see.
> 
> Yet, let me tell you, when it mattered Jim was always up to it.
> 
> He always came to our budget meetings prepared, ready to play the game, always willing to mix it up in the corners.
> 
> And in the process, year after year, he deliberately set his own plans aside and put off his goals for his family.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because, at heart, he wasn't in this, as is the stereotype, for money or for power.
> 
> Jim was driven by conviction, of loyalty to the cause and of duty to the country.
> 
> He believed he had taken on a responsibility for all of our families, not just his own and he was prepared to make sacrifices ultimately, although he did not know it, to sacrifice himself.
> 
> This year, looking at the state of the markets and the numbers in the budget, I knew that, when Jim's call came, it would be different.
> 
> And so, a few weeks ago in my office, I accepted his resignation and I told Jim that the meeting back in 2005 had been one of the best decisions of my political career, one of the most important for this government, and one of the most meaningful ever for our country.
> 
> That he had done a great job, accomplished what he set out to do, and that I understood and appreciated the sacrifice that it had entailed.
> 
> And I told Jim that he had truly been over these eight years, in my judgement, the best finance minister in the world, if not indeed, the best in our history.
> 
> I also wished him well in his next career and told him not to be a stranger.
> 
> Friends, I admit to you that I do not grieve for Jim.
> 
> I know that for Jim, the Lord has prepared a place where he can be free from the afflictions of recent times and in joy.
> 
> No, my friends, when a good one leaves, grief is for those who are left behind.
> 
> So, one more word for those, specifically for John and Galen and Quinn, "the boys," as your father always called you.
> 
> Let me just say this.
> 
> I lost my own father almost exactly to the day, 11 years ago.
> 
> From that period, I remember almost nothing of what I said or what was said to me, so powerful were the waves of emotion.
> 
> But once that passed, and perspective took hold, I came to appreciate my father's place in my life, probably even more fully and deeply than if he were still here.
> 
> And it is all good.
> 
> And it will be for you.
> 
> You are not "the boys" any longer.
> 
> You are young men.
> 
> Hold on to your mother and to your father's lessons, and know that there are many here and beyond who are there for you.
> 
> And, I say once again, from Laureen and my family and from all my colleagues, God bless you, the family, and farewell to our friend, Jim.
> 
> On behalf of a grateful country, we thank you.


A very good heart felt eulogy IMO. 

The commentators mentioned that it was *actually* written by the PM... that is a pretty cynical comment considering how obviously it could not have been written by anyone else considering the intimate details that were expressed by the PM... thus is the state of reporting these days... they always have to be negative all the while being disguised as something positive.

"Jimmy's" sister's eulogy was very good as were his son's and his wife's.

I am glad that they paid tributes first and left the religious stuff to be last.

In the RC ceremony for my mother (directed by my uncle, my mother's brother) it was the other way around so when it came time for the tributes everyone was already tired.

Overall it was a fitting tribute/funeral... I wish there could have been a little more humour, because I am quite certain Jim would have appreciated it, but I understand it is hard to be funny when one is in remorse.


----------



## SINC

I watched the entire service and give it an A+. A fitting tribute to a great Canadian.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Just to review the RCMP determined:
> 
> 
> 
> But never mind, keep wearing your tinfoil hat that you seem to think serves you so well....
> 
> I would expect nothing less or more.


I wonder what part of; "The RCMP has declared this was entirely legal and I suspect this is probably so." confused you?

I also still wonder if the cons really believed it was all on the up and up, why did they resign Wright rather than defending him vigorously? 

Outside of the blatant smear attempt, no tinfoil hats, just straight forward, clear, concise questions. 

On the other side of the fence: Given that the cons have left themselves wide open for criticism in a number of areas, I also wonder why Mulcair continues to waste time on the Wright (non) issue?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *I wonder what part of; "The RCMP has declared this was entirely legal and I suspect this is probably so." confused you?*
> 
> *I also still wonder if the cons really believed it was all on the up and up, why did they resign Wright rather than defending him vigorously? *
> 
> Outside of the blatant smear attempt, no tinfoil hats, just straight forward, clear, concise questions.
> 
> *On the other side of the fence: Given that the cons have left themselves wide open for criticism in a number of areas, I also wonder why Mulcair continues to waste time on the Wright (non) issue?*


I was never confused (which BTW could be a lack of your writing/communication skills and not a lack of comprehension on my part... see how that works?) by what you posted, not for one second.

I felt by the tone of your post and your past posting history you were being facetious... If I was wrong, I apologize.

Do you really have to wonder about that?

Seriously. If you do then I have to question your knowledge of politics and mass media in general. Once accusations are made in public one is guilty until proven innocent in the public eye, that is the way it has been for decades, if not for generations.

It took a few of days for Harper to accept Wright's resignation as he needed to speak to Wright to find out what he had done and what he (Harper) had to do next. 

Once Harper knew what Wright had done, Harper knew he could defend him no longer, because what Wright did was in a "grey" area in the law, as the RCMP just concluded, and also not what he (Harper) wanted which was for Duffy to use his own funds to repay Canadians for what he had done.

Wright was at that point an albatross hanging around the PMs neck. He had to be let go/his resignation be accepted.

Also as to why the PM didn't defend him vigorously indicates precisely that Harper didn't know what Wright did or didn't do at the time of original accusations. 

Harper has made that clear on *multiple* occasions, what he wanted was for Duffy to repay his expenses. Harper has been very clear on that and the evidence bears it out, that is precisely why he let Wright go. 

Wright did an "end around" where he thought what he was doing was in the best interests of Canadians, Duffy and the PM all in one fell swoop.

Had he been working in the private sector (which is what he is used to) he probably would have been correct. Unfortunately for him and the PM he didn't do his homework quite well enough.

Thus we are where we are.

Wright is off the hook, Duffy is another matter.

Because Brazeau and Harb have been indicted, I will be surprised to see if Duffy isn't also indicated. The details of their cases are different of course, but I still expect Duffy to be indicated.

He hasn't. He has pretty much dropped the issue in favour of attacking Bill C-23... you know if you are going to make such statements they should be based on actually watching QP on a regular basis.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> I watched the entire service and give it an A+. A fitting tribute to a great Canadian.


I agree for the most part.

I would have liked a little more levity, because I suspect "Zoomie" would have probably liked it...

But it was a great tribute to a great Canadian.

Jim Flaherty will not soon be forgotten, by his admirers and detractors. 

If only we could all live such memorable and noteworthy lives.

Adeau Zoomie.


----------



## eMacMan

Politically, I can see why the PM dropped Wright like a hot potato, but I never did quite figure out what it was that they thought might be illegal. 

The ethics are an entirely different question, by my standards he was on the wrong side of the fence, but the thing about ethics, is that everyone on the planet sees things a little differently. As an example most Canadians are pretty intolerant of blatant liars, whereas most politicians seem to view that particular flaw as an essential virtue.

As to Mike Duffy had the PM simply followed his own stated view and asked PEI to elect the best person for the job, the chances are pretty good he would have wound up with someone who genuinely lived on the Island.


----------



## heavyall

The Conservatives are back in Federal lead.

Conservatives lead Liberals, NDP among both eligible and likely voters in April | Angus Reid Global

Likely voters:

CPC 34 -- LPC 29 -- NDP 27


----------



## Dr.G.

If Supreme Court nixes Senate reform, is referendum next? - Politics - CBC News

This could be a watershed moment in Canadian history depending upon what the Supreme Court rules. We shall see.


----------



## heavyall

Robocalls probe halted as commissioner says there’s not enough evidence for charges | National Post



> Elections Canada has issued a report on its investigation into deceptive calls in the last election, concluding that “the *evidence gathered in the investigation does not lend support to the existence of a conspiracy or conspiracies to interfere with the voting process*.”





> *“Overall, no discernible pattern of misdirection, such as a single predominant calling number or constellation of predominant calling numbers, was noted,” the report states.*


I can't wait to see what the next big lie the left dreams up will be.


----------



## Macfury

Some EhMacers were peeing their collective pants over Nigel Wright and the robo-calls. It's going to be a rough year for them.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Some EhMacers were peeing their collective pants over Nigel Wright and the robo-calls. It's going to be a rough year for them.


Interestingly there was more evidence for the robo-calls (including a designated scape goat), than for the abuses the Cons claimed in putting forth the elections act.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Interestingly there was more evidence for the robo-calls (including a designated scape goat), than for the abuses the Cons claimed in putting forth the elections act.


There never really was any real evidence in the Robocall thing. Time and time again, witnesses were called forward, and literally not a single person who received one of the calls could be found, nor was any proof of anything misleading being put into any such calls.

On the other hand, Elections Canada's own report detailed over 165,000 irregularities in the last election, most of them related to vouching. Getting rid of vouching is the right thing to do.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Interestingly there was more evidence for the robo-calls (including a designated scape goat), than for the abuses the Cons claimed in putting forth the elections act.


Wrong, if there was evidence for wide spread voter fraud, the ECC would continue the investigation, but he couldn't find any evidence to indicate it and thus closed the case.

The investigation into Michael Sona's involvement in the Guelph riding continues, he is not off the hook yet. 

All this ruling indicates is that they was no wide spread conspiracy afoot, too bad so sad that the evidence doesn't support your and others conspiracy theory. :-(

When it comes to the Guelph riding and what went down there.. time will tell.

They are actually two *separate* issues, despite your and others, e.g., Council of Canadians efforts to conflate the two... Like there is no political agenda there... ) 

This finding must mean that the ECC is in cahoots with the CPC in your eyes I suspect...


----------



## heavyall

There were definitely shenanigans in Guelph. The Liberal MP there has already been fined for his illegal robocalls. I'm not all that worried about Sona though. I suspect he's going to be alright too based on his reaction to learning who is actually going to testify against him:



> Sona said Thursday that he has “ironclad, verifiable alibis” that will contradict Prescott’s evidence.
> 
> “*I wouldn’t want to be him once this comes to trial and he’s under oath*,” Sona said. “You’d think these guys would have learned after the Aruba story not to make the same mistake twice.”
> 
> In November, Sona presented travel documents that show he was on vacation in Aruba at the time when a witness testified he was in Ottawa, boasting about his involvement in the trial.


Doesn't sound like someone who is worried to me!

Former campaign worker granted immunity after he gives evidence in â€˜Pierre Poutine' robocalls case | National Post

So the Robocall story so far:

Charged/Fined: One Liberal, One NDP, and One Council of Canadians. 

Case falling apart against one CPC volunteer in a riding where everyone was playing dirty.

And cleared of any wrong doing THREE times now: Conservative Party of Canada.


----------



## MacDoc

*hehe - the Tyee weighs in on Herr Harper...*












> *Savouring Sharpernfreude*
> Ask yourself. Do you really want the besieged and bedraggled S. Harper gone any time too soon?
> By Ian Gill, 22 Apr
> 
> To the dictionary, we are pleased to add the following:
> 
> shar·per·n·freu·de [sharper-n-froi-duh]
> noun: satisfaction or pleasure felt at Stephen Harper's misfortune
> origin: 1890–2014; < German/Canadian, equivalent to S. Harper harm + Freude joy
> 
> It has been a purple patch this last while for Canadians who have suffered for too long from the grievous bodily harm that our nation's bully-in-chief is inflicting on the country. Finally, we are getting a glimpse of the limits to his power, and his setbacks are all the more delicious to behold because they are mostly of his own making.
> 
> But first, in order to properly legislate agreement with the views that follow, I have sought recourse in a tactic much favoured by the prime minister, and hereby announce passage of an omnibus column. Part of the S. Harper that S. Harper has inflicted on Canadian political life has been his use of omnibus bills, the latest of which, Bill C-4, seeks to tamper with union rights, Supreme Court appointments, employment insurance, workplace safety, veterans' affairs, conflict-of-interest rules, solicitor-client privileges, immigration policy and same-sex relations between mountain goats.
> 
> Not everything in the previous sentence is true, but that's the funny thing about omnibus bills -- they ship all sorts of unrelated things through Parliament, somewhat akin to "riders" that American legislators use to befuddle taxpayers and each other.
> 
> Anyway, it seems somehow apposite there is a bill before Parliament that shares its name with a common plastic explosive, C4, whose ingredients include silly putty, Vaseline, gelatin and rubbing alcohol. Using mostly the latter, albeit ignoring the warnings on the label about internal consumption, I present Gill C4 for explosive First Reading.
> 
> 
> continues
> The Tyee â€“ Savouring Sharpernfreude


:clap:


----------



## heavyall

Someone should wake up Mr. Gill. Bill C-4 is hardly "the latest". It received Royal assent four months ago -- it's law.

Then again, the very fact that something is written in the Tyee by definition means that the author has no idea what's going on. So at least it's consistent.


----------



## Macfury

That idiot at the Tyee seems to believe that omnibus bills were a recent invention... and MacDoc seems to be similarly challenged.



heavyall said:


> Someone should wake up Mr. Gill. Bill C-4 is hardly "the latest". It received Royal assent four months ago -- it's law.
> 
> Then again, the very fact that something is written in the Tyee by definition means that the author has no idea what's going on. So at least it's consistent.


----------



## Macfury

I also think it's odd for someone of German descent like MacDoc to continue to call the Prime Minister "Herr Harper" as though it's demeaning. 

What's up with that Herr Hellstern?


----------



## BigDL

Are the supporters of Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster rejoicing in the PM's "Teflon Don fortunes." This is the new Conservative law and order agenda?

Seems OGL has much to explain now that he and his party can't hide behind "police investigations, before the courts line.


----------



## SINC

I see the childish name calling has resumed.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> That idiot at the Tyee seems to believe that omnibus bills were a recent invention... and MacDoc seems to be similarly challenged.


Nope omnibus bills are not a Harper invention but as Rick Mercer so eloquently pointed out the last time: "He knows better and does it anyway."

In the case of Bill C31 over a million Canadians are being thrown under that omnibus as Harper enables an IRS extortion scam.


----------



## Dr.G.

Supreme Court rejects Harper government's Senate overhaul plan - The Globe and Mail

Bug Humbar. This was one time I was firmly on the side of PM Harper and his plans to reform or abolish the Senate.


----------



## SINC

It's time we trimmed the authority of the courts in terms of 'controlling government' along with senate reform. No handful of men and women (especially lawyers) should have the power to override the wishes for change of an elected government.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> It's time we trimmed the authority of the courts in terms of 'controlling government' along with senate reform. No handful of men and women (especially lawyers) should have the power to override the wishes for change of an elected government.


An elected Government still has to adhere to the Constitution SINC, otherwise it truly does become a dictatorship.

That is why the Government asked for the SCC's opinion before they went ahead and did anything.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Are the supporters of Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster rejoicing in the PM's "Teflon Don fortunes." This is the new Conservative law and order agenda?
> 
> Seems OGL has much to explain now that he and his party can't hide behind "police investigations, before the courts line.


What the hell is this even supposed to mean?


----------



## BigDL

Seems we shall not have senate reform as long as Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is Prime Minister. OGL refuses to converse with the Provinces on any matter unless figuratively a gun is held to his head.

Over and over we see OGL PM unilateralism in action.

With a change of government and the will to follow the desires of the people, change is still possible.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Seems we shall not have senate reform as long as Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is Prime Minister. OGL refuses to converse with the Provinces on any matter unless figuratively a gun is held to his head.*
> 
> Over and over we see OGL PM unilateralism in action.
> 
> With a change of government and the will to follow the desires of the people, change is still possible.


What a bunch of BS he consults with the provinces all the time one on one. 

No one wants to go down the path of opening the Constitution because of the disasters it has lead to in the past.

Many Provinces (most namely Quebec) have let it be know that they don't want the Senate abolished, so why start something that is a non-starter.

If the NDP were ever to get into power (god forbid) let's see if Mulcair would have the balls to actually do it. He can scream and holler about abolishing the Senate because he knows he will never be in the position to actually do it and open the Constitution. For him it is all theater.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> An elected Government still has to adhere to the Constitution SINC, otherwise it truly does become a dictatorship.
> 
> That is why the Government asked for the SCC's opinion before they went ahead and did anything.


All too true, screature. We need the Supreme Court as the true "sober second thought" on constitutional matters. The Harper government was correct in asking the SCC for a ruling on these various matters. Sadly, they did not get the decision for which they were hoping.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> No one wants to go down the path of opening the Constitution because of the disasters it has lead to in the past.


BigDL may be right--the Liberals and NDP may very well wish to hand more ammunition to Quebec separatists by re-opening constitutional talks. Certainly, the NDP was the voice of separatism in the last federal election.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Dr.G. said:


> All too true, screature. We need the Supreme Court as the true "sober second thought" on constitutional matters. The Harper government was correct in asking the SCC for a ruling on these various matters. Sadly, they did not get the decision for which they were hoping.


I agree but not surprised by the ruling.. Since they are lifers as well, saying we the people can change the senate [ which are lifers as well ] would only scare them that they would be next, which I think they should be elected as well..

But will say that the Supreme Court is needed more than the Senate is ..


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> All too true, screature. We need the Supreme Court as the true "sober second thought" on constitutional matters. The Harper government was correct in asking the SCC for a ruling on these various matters. Sadly, they did not get the decision for which they were hoping.


True that, the Supreme Court is required to explain, their understanding of Canada's basic law, the Constitution.

However, I am not too sure the current government did not get the answer they were looking for.

Seems the Senate is a favourite parking place for Conservative "Bagmen and Political Hacks." OGL even appoints failed "star candidates" that the voters rejected from general elections for the House of Commons to the Senate.

I am of the view OGL PM likes the Senate, and the current system of appointments to the Senate very much. I think he would not like to lose such power.

Conservative "back room boys" on the public payroll is just the way the gods intended it should be. It's has been that way since Confederation for successive Conservative and Liberal Governments.

The only problem with the PMO/Senate scandal was the Base were alerted to having the wool pulled over their eyes and seeing for themselves the Ottawa Conservatives sense of entitlement to their entitlements.

Sadly for them(the Base), Robert Fife of CTV, let the cat out of the bag on the Wright/Duffy affair and gave the Base a glimpse of the real goings-on, going on, with the Ottawa Conservatives.

As long as the true Conservative believers slip back into denial much like the followers of Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker and the donations keep rolling in for the Conservatives. All is well with the Ottawa Conservatives as they shall remain entitled to their entitlements.


----------



## Dr.G.

macintosh doctor said:


> I agree but not surprised by the ruling.. Since they are lifers as well, saying we the people can change the senate [ which are lifers as well ] would only scare them that they would be next, which I think they should be elected as well..
> 
> But will say that the Supreme Court is needed more than the Senate is ..


Agreed, md. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> True that, the Supreme Court is required to explain, their understanding of Canada's basic law, the Constitution.
> 
> However, I am not too sure the current government did not get the answer they were looking for.
> 
> Seems the Senate is a favourite parking place for Conservative "Bagmen and Political Hacks." OGL even appoints failed "star candidates" that the voters rejected from general elections for the House of Commons to the Senate.
> 
> I am of the view OGL PM likes the Senate, and the current system of appointments to the Senate very much. I think he would not like to lose such power.
> 
> Conservative "back room boys" on the public payroll is just the way the gods intended it should be. It's has been that way since Confederation for successive Conservative and Liberal Governments.
> 
> The only problem with the PMO/Senate scandal was the Base were alerted to having the wool pulled over their eyes and seeing for themselves the Ottawa Conservatives sense of entitlement to their entitlements.
> 
> Sadly for them(the Base), Robert Fife of CTV, let the cat out of the bag on the Wright/Duffy affair and gave the Base a glimpse of the real goings-on, going on, with the Ottawa Conservatives.
> 
> As long as the true Conservative believers slip back into denial much like the followers of Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker and the donations keep rolling in for the Conservatives. All is well with the Ottawa Conservatives as they shall remain entitled to their entitlements.


Sadly, the Senate has also been the "dumping ground" for some Liberal "bagmen" as well. Still, every once and awhile you get the likes of a Eugene Forsey, who served in the Canadian Senate from 1970 to 1979. He was considered to be one of Canada's foremost constitutional experts. He was an honorable man who took his job as a senator seriously.


----------



## Dr.G.

Conservatives announce Election Act overhaul with many contentious aspects removed - The Globe and Mail

Seems as if the Harper government is starting to listen to various other views re this issue. Good for them.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> True that, the Supreme Court is required to explain, their understanding of Canada's basic law, the Constitution.
> 
> However, I am not too sure the current government did not get the answer they were looking for.
> 
> Seems the Senate is a favourite parking place for *Conservative "Bagmen *and Political Hacks." OGL even appoints failed "star candidates" that the voters rejected from general elections for the House of Commons to the Senate.
> 
> I am of the view OGL PM likes the Senate, and the current system of appointments to the Senate very much. I think he would not like to lose such power.
> 
> Conservative "back room boys" on the public payroll is just the way the gods intended it should be. It's has been that way since Confederation for successive Conservative and Liberal Governments.
> 
> *The only problem with the PMO/Senate scandal was the Base were alerted to having the wool pulled over their eyes and seeing for themselves the Ottawa Conservatives sense of entitlement to their entitlements.*
> 
> Sadly for them(the Base), Robert Fife of CTV, let the cat out of the bag on the Wright/Duffy affair and gave the Base a glimpse of the real goings-on, going on, with the Ottawa Conservatives.
> 
> As long as the true *Conservative believers slip back into denial much like the followers of Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker* and the donations keep rolling in for the Conservatives. All is well with the Ottawa Conservatives as they shall remain entitled to their entitlements.


Do you even know what a "Bagman" is? It seems not as your use of the word is completely misplaced. Yes they participated in fund raising but far from being "Bagmen".

Bagman:



> A bag man (or bagman), is a person designated to collect dirty money, e.g. in a protection racket. A bag man may also be known as a delivery boy or running man. Originally the term applied only to Mafia members collecting for mob bosses, but the term later spread to use in corrupt police precincts for patrolmen who picked up and delivered bribes from the local mob(s) to the precinct captain.
> 
> The bagman may receive a fraction of the money collected. The term can also be used for a person who performs small tasks for the Mafia, such as chauffeuring or transporting goods.


But then again you and your ilk, really have no regard for what words actually mean or for the facts... you are all about spin. Kind of like the Russians these days.

Nonsense, it was made clear from the beginning that Duffy et. al. were on the hook for their illegitimate claims, that is why Duffy told a twisted tale of how he was duped by the PMO and it was only when refused in no uncertain terms to pay back his expenses that Wright intervened to payback Canadians. 

Pure hockey pucks, your comparison is ludicrous, but I know it serves your tale of misinformation and baseless accusations (lies) very well.

Your whole post is an example of hyperbole at its finest... well done. :clap:


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> BigDL may be right--the Liberals and NDP may very well wish to hand more ammunition to Quebec separatists by re-opening constitutional talks. Certainly, the NDP was the voice of separatism in the last federal election.


Well they certainly played to the soft Nationalist vote, I wouldn't say they played to separatist sentiments. That is the role of the BQ.

Mostly they played to the "Bon Jack" sentiment after his death and the fact that Quebec was fed up with the ineffectual BQ. 

I think Quebec voters were simply fed up with the BQ and were looking for a change... as voters in Quebec are so want to do, the recent Provincial election indicates as much. 

Also just look how they voted for an absentee NDP candidate who was on "vacation"during the election and didn't campaign at all and she still got elected.

The "orange crush" was an an anomaly in Quebec and one that I suspect will not be repeated in 2015.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Your whole post is an example of hyperbole at its finest... well done. :clap:


He's a bit of a pumpkin head, isn't he?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> He's a bit of a pumpkin head, isn't he?


He seems to take some pride in it, at least his avatar seems to indicate as much.


----------



## heavyall

Ottawa posts $5.1B surplus in February - Business - CBC News

The federal treasury has reported its biggest monthly surplus since the recession, suggesting that Ottawa will handily beat the current fiscal year's deficit projection the government released in last month's budget.



> The Department of Finance said Friday it took in $5.1 billion more in February than it spent. The massive surplus came about largely because of higher personal and corporate income tax revenues. *Personal income tax revenues were up by $1 billion, a 9.9 per cent jump from the same month in 2013. Corporate tax revenues rose by $700 million, or 10.9 per cent.*


What was it the lefties were saying about lower taxes killing government revenues?


----------



## heavyall

New poll from Ipsos is showing a similar results to yesterday's from Angus Reid:

Likely Voters:

CPC: 34 
LPC: 33 
NDP: 24 
BQ: 5
GPC:3

Tories (33%), Liberals (33%) All Tied Up for First Time Since Fall 2013 | Ipsos

That's the highest support that Ipsos has found for the CPC since 2012. 

What is it that voters are seeing lately from the Conservatives that they like so much ? *The Fair Elections Act!!!*



> Seven in ten *(70%) believe it is ‘acceptable’ to ‘eliminate vouching* and require voters to personally prove their identity and address before they are allowed to vote’, while three in ten (30%) maintain that it is ‘unacceptable’ to remove this practice. In fact, a *majority of supporters of the Conservatives (84%), Bloc (79%), Liberals (67%) and NDP (66%) support the elimination of vouching*.


67% of LIBERALS want vouching gone.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Ottawa posts $5.1B surplus in February - Business - CBC News
> 
> The federal treasury has reported its biggest monthly surplus since the recession, suggesting that Ottawa will handily beat the current fiscal year's deficit projection the government released in last month's budget.
> 
> What was it the lefties were saying about lower taxes killing government revenues?


And how many times have we had to suffer the bleating of conservatives in here who saw a surplus as a HOLY CRIME PUNISHABLE BY DEATH when the lefties do it? Since it represents unnecessary taxation? Uh-huh....


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> And how many times have we had to suffer the bleating of conservatives in here who saw a surplus as a HOLY CRIME PUNISHABLE BY DEATH when the lefties do it? Since it represents unnecessary taxation? Uh-huh....


Just a bit hyperbolic Mark. 

Plus you don't seem to understand the difference between a monthly or quarterly surplus relative to an annualized surplus. Obviously if you are going to balance a deficit you have to take in more revenue relative to expenses in certain months and quarters to eliminate the deficit. Economics 101. 

Also there is nothing wrong with running an annualized surplus so long as debt repayment is included in the balance sheet of a balanced budget, and the annualized surplus is used to pay down debt, it is the only way you are going to pay down your debt over time. Just think of your personal finances, it isn't all that different in broad strokes.

The main thing is that you do not tax the individual citizenry into personal debt and hardship (the method that successive Quebec governments have implemented and failed at miserly all the while being detrimental to the average Qubecer) to balance the budget and pay down the debt. Reducing the cost of government all the while increasing other means of revenue for the federal government is IMO the correct way to achieve a balanced budget and paying down debt.



> The massive surplus came about largely because of higher personal and corporate income tax revenues. Personal income tax revenues were up by $1 billion, a 9.9 per cent jump from the same month in 2013. Corporate tax revenues rose by $700 million, or 10.9 per cent.


This is patently false and the CBC needs to do their home work. We all know that corporate taxes are at almost an all time low. What it may mean is that with the low tax regime more companies are doing business in Canada and thus overall corporate tax revenues are up. 

But if it is true (I highly doubt it), then what it means is that the government's efforts to make Canadians and Corporations actually pay the taxes that they owe are working, i.e., less tax cheats. Not a bad thing at all.

Additionally personal taxes have not gone up under this government (unlike previous governments) in fact the average Canadian pays over $3K less in federal taxes annually now than they did before the current government came into power. So again the CBC has not done their home work and are not looking at the bigger picture. Also how could it be because of an increase in personal taxation in February when the tax filing season had just begun and the personal tax rate is down... truly remarkable that they could make such a claim.

Flat lining expenses in addition to increased overall revenues is why there is a surplus. 

Shoddy journalism at its best.

Flaherty (god rest his good soul) and now Minister Oliver have consistently said that once the budget is balanced there will be further tax cuts for average Canadians.

The problem that I had with the way that Martin achieved a surplus was because he taxed Canadians into a surplus, not the same thing at all...

A report with some real numbers:

Ottawa posts massive $5.1B surplus in February as revenues soar, costs flatline



> February’s strong month was mostly due to a $2.1 billion increase in revenues, or about 8.4% over February 2013. *Meanwhile expenses increased by only about $100 million, or 0.5%.*
> 
> *For the year to date, Ottawa says its revenues are up $10.8 billion, or 4.7%, and its expenses increased by $5.7 billion, or 2.6%.*


So an overall a net gain of 2.1% on the bottom line for the year to date. A good thing, despite the backhanded negative and false spin by the CBC and you.

Increased revenues for a government do not necessarily equate to tax increases for corporations or private citizens... a fact that seems to escape the CBC and those on the left. 

Instead of just insulting people you might be better advised to look at the policies that caused the surplus. When you do you may still disagree with them, but they are clearly working when it comes to balancing the federal budget. Returning to a balanced budget was the government's stated intent all along after having to run a deficit during the great recession. 

The latest numbers show that they are on track to do exactly that.


----------



## MacGuiver

CubaMark said:


> And how many times have we had to suffer the bleating of conservatives in here who saw a surplus as a HOLY CRIME PUNISHABLE BY DEATH when the lefties do it? Since it represents unnecessary taxation? Uh-huh....


As a conservative, I have no problem with a surplus when it goes to service debt. It does however drive me insane when a surplus is seen as an excuse for a spending spree, all the while being strapped with gross amounts of debt. Thats just not fiscally responsible. 
I personally wouldn't consider i have a surplus unless my it is greater than my debt. Until the debt is paid off there is no such thing as a surplus in my eyes.


----------



## Macfury

Well put, screature. I would also add that a current account surplus of $5.1 billion is a nice blip boding well for the country. However, the Conservatives would not tolerate consistent surpluses that simply accumulated. They would be shaved off to pay down legacy debt and reduce taxes.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Well put, screature. I would also add that a current account surplus of $5.1 billion is a nice blip boding well for the country. *However, the Conservatives would not tolerate consistent surpluses that simply accumulated. They would be shaved off to pay down legacy debt and reduce taxes*.


Thanks MacFury.

Exactly, sorry I didn't state that explicitly, so thanks for adding that point.


----------



## Macfury

I will point out one misconception of legacy debt and that is that it can be paid down immediately. Much of the debt is tied up in long-term instruments and bonds, so even if you had enough money to pay it all at once (mathematically impossible), you would incur penalties for early conclusion of those instruments.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I will point out one misconception of legacy debt and that is that it can be paid down immediately. Much of the debt is tied up in long-term instruments and bonds, so even if you had enough money to pay it all at once (mathematically impossible), you would incur penalties for early conclusion of those instruments.


Indeed. It is something that has to be done over time, something that this government is cognizant of. The other parties, at least when it comes to their political rhetoric (which they know to be completely false) fail to admit to... They would rather participate in political falsehood, false scandal and drama, just so as to try and keep the electorate in a constant state of unrest, despite the fact that for the majority of us we have it better than the rest of the people in the world.

Rather than celebrate how well we are doing relative to the rest of the world they would rather portray us as living under a* dictatorship*, the greatest hyperbole and fallacy in Canadian political history...

Just how well do they expect us to do??? Do they want us to annex other territories like the Russians for our own gain?? 

Kill people in the streets who disagree with you??? 

I am really at a loss as to what they expect. But that is not entirely surprising as they never tell us their real agenda... At least with the conservatives they have made their policies very clear.

And even at that with the Fair Elections Act Minister Poilievre introduced amendments based on public hearings and feedback...

But of course in the media that means he was *defeated/had to back down *rather than just simply listening to testimony from the public at large and experts and agreed to make amendments.

The Opposition is always want to have their cake and eat it too...If the Minister remains intransigent, it is a failure... if he concedes and listens to the opposition and alters his legislation he still remains a failure.

It is just so bogus. It makes me sick.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Rather than celebrate how well we are doing relative to the rest of the world they would rather portray us as living under a* dictatorship*, the greatest hyperbole and fallacy in Canadian political history...


At the same time, many of them express open admiration for China, which--although it has freed up its economy to produce heavily subsidized solar panels--still rules it populace with an iron fist. Yet Canada is likened to a Fascist state by these same people.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> And how many times have we had to suffer the bleating of conservatives in here who saw a surplus as a HOLY CRIME PUNISHABLE BY DEATH when the lefties do it? Since it represents unnecessary taxation? Uh-huh....


Why are you always so dishonest when discussing politics? Reactions like that are the reason why Conservatives just dismiss the opinions of left-wingers -- they seldom have something of substance to say, so it's not worth your time wading through the chaff to see if they actually have a point.

Conservatives were never upset at the momentary existence of a surplus. What Harper was opposed to when he was in opposition was the ever increasing annual surpluses, that were happening during a time that taxes were being increased and services and program spending was being cut. Chretien/Martin cut health care, they cut education, they cut military, they increased taxes, they lied when they promised to reduce taxes, they lied when they claimed to be paying down the debt. They left all the bills unpaid, collected more from the taxpayer, and announced a surplus that was as phoney as it gets. And still, they refused to cut taxes, make substantial payments to the debt, or restore the health care funding that they had been promising for years.

A monthly surplus is a good thing when planning for the next month's expenditures. A modest surplus that actually remains in a rainy day fund is a great thing (The Conservatives here in Manitoba use to have one, the first thing the NDP did when they came power was spend all of it). 

When you end up with a surplus at the end of a year, and you use that fiscal space to cut taxes and service the debt on the following years' budgets, THAT is good fiscal management.


----------



## Macfury

I recall much cheering on EhMac with the massive tax hikes in California supposedly ending the state's projected deficits and proving that higher taxes fix everything. Well, Governor Moonbeam again finds himself in a deficit:

California's Vanishing Surplus| The American Spectator



> On January 31 last year, the state’s General Fund had a deficit of $15.7 billion. The higher tax rates brought in new money. This, along with internal and external borrowing, made it look as if the deficit had gone with the wind, but it hadn’t. Brown called it a surplus, amid much cheering by the spendthrift legislature.
> 
> Fast forward to the end of January this year. The deficit had been whittled down to $12.6 billion. Some surplus!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I recall much cheering on EhMac with the massive tax hikes in California supposedly ending the state's projected deficits and proving that higher taxes fix everything. Well, Governor Moonbeam again finds himself in a deficit:
> 
> California's Vanishing Surplus| The American Spectator


Personally I would prefer if we kept the American and Canadian political threads seperate.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Personally I don't appreciate American politics being introduce in to the Canadian political thread.
> 
> It is not the in the least bit welcome by me.
> 
> We have two separate threads let's please keep it that way.


It is relevant to this thread. It was introduced by EhMacers as solid proof that one needed only raise taxes to create surpluses and something for Canada to emulate.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It is relevant to this thread. It was introduced by EhMacers as solid proof that one needed only raise taxes to create surpluses and something for Canada to emulate.


I disagree. It is no different than MacDoc referring to Norwegian policy being relative to our own.

Sorry it is my opinion.... I don't like it. In conflates issues that really have no bearing on each other. It simply serves to muddy the waters.


----------



## heavyall

I agree with MacFury, it's germane to the conversation in progress regarding the relationship of taxes to govt revenues.


----------



## heavyall

Of course, it would be better, IMO, to have separate threads for different topics, so that there actually is a place we can agree is for a given conversation. Most forums I go to insist on this, this is the only one I've ever seen with the opposite culture.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I disagree. It is no different than MacDoc referring to Norwegian policy being relative to our own.
> 
> Sorry it is my opinion.... I don't like it. In conflates issues that really have no bearing on each other. It simply serves to muddy the waters.


I have no problem when MacDoc ties Norwegian politics to Canadian. I have no patience for presenting some factoid about Norway and calling Canada's federal government a bunch of idiots.



heavyall said:


> Of course, it would be better, IMO, to have separate threads for different topics, so that there actually is a place we can agree is for a given conversation. Most forums I go to insist on this, this is the only one I've ever seen with the opposite culture.


My choice on this is either going to the American Politics threads and comparing the approach of California to Canada, or starting a new thread on California government budgeting versus Canadian government budgeting.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I agree with MacFury, it's germane to the conversation in progress regarding the relationship of taxes to govt revenues.





heavyall said:


> Of course, it would be better, IMO, to have separate threads for different topics, so that there actually is a place we can agree is for a given conversation. Most forums I go to insist on this, this is the only one I've ever seen with the opposite culture.


If we could have an International Political thread I would have no problem with MacFury's post.

But personally I would prefer that the Canadian Political thread was about domestic issues... I find it a little passing strange that I was virtually alone in talking about the Quebec election and that others only joined in when the Federalist's won.

The vote in Quebec could have potentially fundamentally changed the make up of our country and and it seemed like there were very few here who realized it or cared.

The lack of commentary from anyone in the west or east of Quebec was very disappointing to me as a Quebec federalist and now somehow a US reference bears relevance... I quite frankly find it astounding and disheartening. 

As I said I would be in favour of an International Political thread that could weave its web wherever it wanted to go , but my personal preference is for the Canadian Political thread to be about domestic issues. Otherwise the issues could be very easily become conflated beyond the point of recognition.


----------



## heavyall

The Quebec election discussion wasn't a Canadian (national) topic, it was a Provincial one. Should have been a separate thread!


----------



## Aurora

I disagree Heavyall. The Quebec election was definitely a provincial matter but the federal overtones were there. Maybe the separation threat isn't as great out west but here, it is in your face all the time


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The lack of commentary from anyone in the west or east of Quebec was very disappointing to me as a Quebec federalist and now somehow a US reference bears relevance... I quite frankly find it astounding and disheartening.


Did someone say that your Quebec posts were irrelevant? 

It's just that I had little doubt that the separatists would be drubbed. It's hard to get excited every time a Quebec separatist says "Bou." Won't be the last time either.


----------



## heavyall

Aurora said:


> I disagree Heavyall. The Quebec election was definitely a provincial matter but the federal overtones were there. Maybe the separation threat isn't as great out west but here, it is in your face all the time


I was making fun of Screature's "wrong thread" policing, I wasn't being serious.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> The Quebec election discussion wasn't a Canadian (national) topic, it was a Provincial one. Should have been a separate thread!


We have had this debate here before. It is the Canadian political thread, the provinces are part of Canada in fact without them there is no Canada, so therefore it is fair game to talk about provincial politics here. It is done all the time about Alberta and Ontario for example.

*It isn't the Federal Canadian politics thread.*


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I was making fun of Screature's* "wrong thread" policing*, I wasn't being serious.


Is done here all the time by many more others than just me, it helps to keep threads on track.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Is done here all the time by many more others than just me, it helps to keep threads on track.


Just because 100 people do a silly thing, doesn't mean it's not silly!


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> We have had this debate here before. It is the Canadian political thread, the provinces are part of Canada in fact without them there is no Canada, so therefore it is fair game to take about provincial politics here. It is done all the time about Alberta and Ontario for example.
> 
> It isn't the Federal Canadian politics thread.


Lumping them all together makes enforcing those topics that do cross thread topics even more ridiculous. It's either a free-for-all, or it isn't. Keep it part way in the middle, and things that are part way in the middle will get posted in one or the other threads.


----------



## FeXL

My tax dollars at work...

For those of you not in the know, Allison Redford has been MIA. She has not been to work once in the weeks since her resignation as Premier. 

However, she has been recently spotted in purgatory, I mean, Palm Springs...


Alison Redford spotted dining in Palm Springs after asking to collect pay while absent from Alberta legislature



> Only days after she sent a letter to the speaker of the Alberta legislature saying she would be absent from her duties as a sitting MLA for reasons of illness, bereavement or government business, former premier Alison Redford has been spotted dining in an Italian restaurant in Palm Springs, Calif.


Oh, but it's all OK, because she called in sick...



> Redford’s office notified the legislature Speaker on Wednesday that she was absent under a clause that permits MLAs to miss sessions in the assembly due to illness or injury, bereavement or government duties. The specific reason has not been released.
> 
> Speaker Gene Zwozdesky could not be reached for comment, but his assistant said Friday the process is based on the honour system.
> 
> Zwozdesky’s office is not obligated to approve the request for absence. “*These are honourable members* and the Speaker would receive the notification and he would take the member at their word, obviously,” said Bev Alenius.


M'bold.

Well, of _course_ they are...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> My tax dollars at work...
> 
> For those of you not in the know, Allison Redford has been MIA. She has not been to work once in the weeks since her resignation as Premier.
> 
> However, she has been recently spotted in purgatory, I mean, Palm Springs...
> 
> 
> Alison Redford spotted dining in Palm Springs after asking to collect pay while absent from Alberta legislature
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, but it's all OK, because she called in sick...
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Well, of _course_ they are...


That honour system which worked out so well with the Canadian Senate. 

Let's face it a politician is a politician. Does not matter if they are white with black stripes or black with white. "Honorable politician" is an oxymoron.

I think the official con-spin would be that Mrs. Redford is grieving the loss of the premiership. So by that standard, or lack thereof, she is indeed sick.


----------



## SINC

I predict that once she milks the system for all the sick pay she can muster, she will announce her retirement and lay claim to a lifetime pension on the taxpayer's tab without ever returning to the legislature. Watch it happen.


----------



## FeXL

I wouldn't take that bet...


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Lumping them all together makes enforcing those topics that do cross thread topics even more ridiculous. It's either a free-for-all, or it isn't. Keep it part way in the middle, and things that are part way in the middle will get posted in one or the other threads.


Heavyall this discussion has been had here before. Provincial politics are Canadian politics we all agreed to it long before you came on the scene.

You want to make a fuss and oppose just for the sake of it... Leave that to the NDP and Liberals...

Clearly Provincial politics are Canadian politics... case closed as it has been for some time now.

Once again, the title of this thread is the Canadian Political Thread and not the Federal Canadian Political Thread.

Time to move on.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Just because 100 people do a silly thing, doesn't mean it's not silly!


Just because you say it is silly doesn't mean it is silly.


----------



## Macfury

Newfoundland needs a separate topic.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Newfoundland needs a separate topic.


True enough, those Newfies were late to join the game...


----------



## Macfury

They nearly joined the US--can't forget that!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Newfoundland needs a separate topic.


True ................... what topic might you suggest???


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> True enough, those Newfies were late to join the game...





Macfury said:


> They nearly joined the US--can't forget that!


That was the third choice on the ballot, but it came in third when the votes were counted in 1948.


----------



## Macfury

It should go next to the Labrador thread.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It should go next to the Labrador thread.


Well, the official name of our province is now Newfoundland and Labrador. So, we are a team.


----------



## Macfury

That's why the threads will be side by side.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That's why the threads will be side by side.


:lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Stephen Harper turns 55 today. Happy Birthday, Mr. PM.


----------



## screature

What a nice non-partisan post...

Thanks Dr.G. for being a human being. :clap:


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> What a nice non-partisan post...
> 
> Thanks Dr.G. being a human being. :clap:


Agreed. And thanks Stephen Harper for your service to Canada for so many years.


----------



## Aurora

+1


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> What a nice non-partisan post...
> 
> Thanks Dr.G. being a human being. :clap:


Merci, screature. I may not agree with all of his views, but it is his birthday ............ and they do own a dachshund. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ontario election called for June 12 after NDP rejects Liberal budget - The Globe and Mail

I don't follow Ontario politics too closely, but I would be curious to know how the ehMacLanders from ON feel this election might go comes June.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Ontario election called for June 12 after NDP rejects Liberal budget - The Globe and Mail
> 
> I don't follow Ontario politics too closely, but I would be curious to know how the ehMacLanders from ON feel this election might go comes June.


I suspect a short-lived Conservative minority, not because of any amazing qualities possessed by Hudak, but simply because Wynne must go.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I suspect a short-lived Conservative minority, not because of any amazing qualities possessed by Hudak, but simply because Wynne must go.


Thanks for the feedback. I was just curious.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I was just curious.


The big issues now are the enormous deficit and the fact that Wynne has been accused of being complicit in a coverup regarding a decision to relocate a natural gas generating plant .


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The big issues now are the enormous deficit and the fact that Wynne has been accused of being complicit in a coverup regarding a decision to relocate a natural gas generating plant .


Not to mention yesterday's extravagant tax and spend budget.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The big issues now are the enormous deficit and the fact that Wynne has been accused of being complicit in a coverup regarding a decision to relocate a natural gas generating plant .


That issue I have heard a bit about, but do not really know the specifics.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I suspect a short-lived Conservative minority, not because of any amazing qualities possessed by Hudak, but simply because Wynne must go.


An interesting prediction, but when I think about it if the Cons call pull off a victory I think it will be much as you say.

There are just such "slim pickens" in Ontario these days.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> That issue I have heard a bit about, but do not really know the specifics.


Dalton McGuinty ordered a gas plant to be relocated as a measure to ensure votes in the Oakville area. The cost of switching locations simply to win an election was astronomical and the discovery of the plan was one of the reasons McGuinty left office. Kathleen Wynne has been accused of ordering the destruction of indemnifying computer records as she took office--however, the allegations have not been proved.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> An interesting prediction, but when I think about it if the Cons call pull off a victory I think it will be much as you say.
> 
> There are just such "slim pickens" in Ontario these days.


Nuclear combat with the Roosskies!


----------



## heavyall

I don't envy whomever has to clean up Wynne and McGuinty's mess. I suspect they will become very unpopular quite quickly due to the steep austerity measures they'll have no choice but to adopt.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Nuclear combat with the Roosskies!


Ontario won't take them on alone. They will need at at least Alberta, Quebec, BC, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and PEI (or some other combination of 7 provinces representing over 50% of the population) to get the job done.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I don't envy whomever has to clean up Wynne and McGuinty's mess. I suspect they will become very unpopular quite quickly due to the steep austerity measures they'll have no choice but to adopt.


I really hate to say it, but Wynne does stand an ice cube's chance in hell of getting elected, the state of Ontario politics being what they are.

I hope the Ontario election period is at least half as entertaining as the Quebec election period was... beejacon


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I don't envy whomever has to clean up Wynne and McGuinty's mess. I suspect they will become very unpopular quite quickly due to the steep austerity measures they'll have no choice but to adopt.


I was never unhappy with the Mike Harris government. My tax burden was light an economic prospects were excellent. A few nitpicks include the forced amalgamation of Toronto, but compared to economic devastation, these seem like mere blips. Harris became unpopular more because of his success than his failures.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I was never unhappy with the Mike Harris government. My tax burden was light an economic prospects were excellent. A few nitpicks include the forced amalgamation of Toronto, but compared to economic devastation, these seem like mere blips. Harris became unpopular more because of his success than his failures.


So who will you be voting for MF? Or will you spoil your ballet?


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> I was never unhappy with the Mike Harris government. My tax burden was light an economic prospects were excellent. A few nitpicks include the forced amalgamation of Toronto, but compared to economic devastation, these seem like mere blips. Harris became unpopular more because of his success than his failures.


The mess Harris had to clean up was small potatoes compared to what the LPO has done, IMO. As The National Post put it the other day, Wynne makes Rae look like a Conservative.

But even what Harris had to do brought a tremendous amount of ire on him and Flaherty by the masses who simply did not understand what was required for their own well-being.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So who will you be voting for MF? Or will you spoil your ballet?


I will hold my nose and vote for Hudak. Evey time I'm phoned and asked to financially support the Ontario Conservative Party, I explain that their platform is too similar to that of the Liberals--that I simply can't spend more to support the party than I will benefit from their policies.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I was never unhappy with the Mike Harris government. My tax burden was light an economic prospects were excellent.


Further on that:

Ontario Debt By Premier


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL, using the chart you provided:










One could say that the NDP under Bob Rae had less debt than the four Liberal / Conservative Premieres who followed him... beejacon

And for what it's worth, I don't know an NDP supporter east of Toronto who considered Rae a 'true' NDPer. But then, the NDP's continual shift to the right since that time has left many disillusioned with the party.

This will be an entertaining campaign, for sure...


----------



## Macfury

Entertaining only in Wynne's hopeful downfall. A nice lady, entirely out of her depth. In her first speech as Minister of Transportation, she cheerfully admitted she knew nothing about roads. Botching the energy portfolio was her second great achievement. She's now moved on to crushing the entire Ontario economy at once.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> FeXL, using the chart you provided:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One could say that the NDP under Bob Rae had less debt than the four Liberal / Conservative Premieres who followed him... beejacon
> 
> And for what it's worth, I don't know an NDP supporter east of Toronto who considered Rae a 'true' NDPer. But then, the NDP's continual shift to the right since that time has left many disillusioned with the party.
> 
> This will be an entertaining campaign, for sure...


The debt was less but the rate of increase was highest when Rae in power second only to McGuinty and Wynne. Harris grew the debt at a slower rate than any of them other than Peterson.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The debt was less but the rate of increase was highest when Rae in power second only to McGuinty and Wynne. Harris grew the debt at a slower rate than any of them other than Peterson.


Harris also grew the debt slowly when my taxes were lowest.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Entertaining only in Wynne's hopeful downfall. A nice lady, entirely out of her depth. In her first speech as Minister of Transportation, she cheerfully admitted she knew nothing about roads. Botching the energy portfolio was her second great achievement. She's now moved on to crushing the entire Ontario economy at once.


Unfortunately having prior experience relative to the portfolio one has as Minister is very rare in both Provincial and Federal politics. A Minister greatly relies on bureaucrats such ADMs and DMs to get them up to speed on their portfolios, tout suite. So often a Minister is only as good as the bureaucrats that support them, especially when the Minister is new to the portfolio.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Unfortunately having prior experience relative to the portfolio one has as Minister is very rare in both Provincial and Federal politics. A Minister greatly relies on bureaucrats such ADMs and DMs to get them up to speed on their portfolios , tout suite. So often a Minister is only as good as the bureaucrats that support them, especially when the Minister is new to the portfolio.


Absolutely--however, the admission of having no knowledge is not refreshing.


----------



## eMacMan

Been interesting watching the con-meisters attempting to parry questions about including the FATCA-IGA, which is in every sense of the word a treaty, as part of the omni-bus budget bill.

Ask them: "Why not separate this from the omnibus bill so that it can get the debate it deserves?"
The talking point response condenses down to: "We did it for our bankster buddies." 
Not a chance in hell of any of them actually answering the question.

FWIW it now looks like a Charter challenge is inevitable.


----------



## CubaMark

*So - how do y'all feel about this kerfuffle?*

*MacKay repeats allegations against top court judge*



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Justice Minister Peter MacKay breached confidentiality rules and tried to intimidate judges when they publicly criticized Supreme Court Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin, opposition parties say.
> 
> “Does the Attorney-General consider that it is part of his job to ensure that there are never any attempts to intimidate the courts in our country?” New Democratic Party Leader Thomas Mulcair asked Mr. MacKay in the House on Monday.





> Sean Casey, the Liberal Party’s justice critic, said the Prime Minister had breached confidentiality rules designed to protect all participants and candidates in the selection process of Supreme Court judges.





> “The Prime Minister … publicly breached the confidentiality of the selection process for Supreme Court judges,” Mr. Casey told the House. “How can anyone, including the minister [of justice], have any faith in the process after what the Prime Minister has done?”
> 
> Mr. MacKay responded that the process had been the most inclusive one ever for the Supreme Court.
> 
> The government’s consultations with the Chief Justice are an expected part of the appointment process, Mr. Casey said.
> 
> “I would suggest a Chief Justice will be less candid and will be silent if they know that what they say is going to be widely publicized.”


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## FeXL

How federal bill C-13 could give CSIS agents — or even Rob Ford — access to your personal online data



> A wide-ranging new federal bill that will allow Internet and cellphone providers to hand over your personal data without a warrant has privacy advocates concerned about just how many officials will have access to that information, a list that could range from CSIS agents to Toronto Mayor Rob Ford.
> 
> When passed, Tory bill C-13 will mean that any “public officer” or “peace officer” can request, obtain and use data that has been voluntarily provided to them by telecommunication companies, and it spells out legal immunity for any company that co-operates.


Frankly, got far less issues with Rob Ford ending up with my data than many law enforcement agencies.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> How federal bill C-13 could give CSIS agents — or even Rob Ford — access to your personal online data
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, got far less issues with Rob Ford ending up with my data than many law enforcement agencies.


I have never believed my communications are secure, though this certainly stinks.


----------



## eMacMan

According to the Finance Minister, Congress has spoken and therefore Canada must proceed with the FATCA IGA, to be enabled by stealth in the budget omnibus bill. Under no circumstances will the con-meisters treat a treaty as a treaty and give the House a chance to debate it properly.

Ironic that FATCA itself found its way into existence via a massive omnibus bill. When pressed, most of the Congressmen and Senators who voted to pass that bill have no clue as to what FATCA is or even that they voted it into law. That bills main instigator: None other than John McCain.

Still I wonder why the Finance Minister feels that protecting the banksters and doing what Congress demands, is sufficient reason to pass legislation which throws over a million Canadians under the omnibus. 

The basis of a democracy is that the government is responsible to the citizens of the nation it governs. When a government places the demands of banksters and foreign nations ahead of its own citizens then what we have can no longer be called a democracy.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> *So - how do y'all feel about this kerfuffle?*


'Kay, CM, I'll bite.

I know nothing about this issue &, even after reading your linked article, am unsure exactly what the problem is. Can you clarify?


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *So - how do y'all feel about this kerfuffle?*
> 
> *MacKay repeats allegations against top court judge*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


Good on him for exposing once and for all that SC justices are just people and make mistakes. That noted, the mistake we the people made was allowing an appointed bunch of hack lawyers to rule our everyday lives. Parliament should have authority over the SC, not the reverse.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Good on him for exposing once and for all that SC justices are just people and make mistakes. That noted, the mistake we the people made was* allowing an appointed bunch of hack lawyers to rule our everyday lives. Parliament should have authority over the SC, not the reverse*.


The SCC *doesn't* control Parliament and Parliament *shouldn't* control the SCC. What *guides* them both is the Constitution. This is the way it is and should be in a modern democracy.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The SCC *doesn't* control Parliament and Parliament *shouldn't* control the SCC. What *guides* them both is the Constitution. This is the way it is and should be in a modern democracy.


Agreed.


----------



## FeXL

This headline brought to you from the Departent of the Bleeding Obvious...

Europe softens stance on Canada’s oil sands as relations with Russia sour



> The European Union has previously deemed the oil sands as one of the dirtiest forms of oil and its proposed Fuel Quality Fuel Directive would effectively make Canadian crude unwelcome in European refineries. But *Russia’s latest aggressive moves in Ukraine have compelled the continent to take another look at Alberta crude.*


Funny, that...

Bears repeating: Love it or hate it, it's oil, people. It will be bought & it will be transported.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> According to the Finance Minister, Congress has spoken and therefore Canada must proceed with the FATCA IGA, to be enabled by stealth in the budget omnibus bill. Under no circumstances will the con-meisters treat a treaty as a treaty and give the House a chance to debate it properly.
> 
> Ironic that FATCA itself found its way into existence via a massive omnibus bill. When pressed, most of the Congressmen and Senators who voted to pass that bill have no clue as to what FATCA is or even that they voted it into law. That bills main instigator: None other than John McCain.
> 
> Still I wonder why the Finance Minister feels that protecting the banksters and doing what Congress demands, is sufficient reason to pass legislation which throws over a million Canadians under the omnibus.
> 
> The basis of a democracy is that the government is responsible to the citizens of the nation it governs. When a government places the demands of banksters and foreign nations ahead of its own citizens then what we have can no longer be called a democracy.


So basically you are suggesting that despite all existing taxation treaties between the US and Canada, we should potentially become a tax haven for US dual citizens..

Yep that makes a lot of sense. 

Like I said before, it makes me wonder what you and your ilk have to hide.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> So basically you are suggesting that despite all existing taxation treaties between the US and Canada, we should potentially become a tax haven for US dual citizens..
> 
> Yep that makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Like I said before, it makes me wonder what you and your ilk have to hide.


I agree. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the way we are going about it is exactly right. If you're afoul of the law (tax, criminal, whatever) with our neighbor and our closest trading partner, yep, we're going to co-operate with that country to bring you to justice. We wouldn't intentionally harbor a wanted criminal, why would we harbour a wanted tax cheat?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> So basically you are suggesting that despite all existing taxation treaties between the US and Canada, we should potentially become a tax haven for US dual citizens..
> 
> Yep that makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Like I said before, it makes me wonder what you and your ilk have to hide.


First the biggest tax haven for tax evaders in the world is the USofA. Canada is not such a haven. Anyone attempting to use it as such would end up paying more in taxes as compared to leaving their money stateside. Additionally such schemes would be done through shell corporations established in Canada by or for the evaders and such corporations are not affected in the least. Finally we need look no further than the OVDP to discover that Americans living in Canada, who owe nothing in taxes are being hit with penalties up to and even exceeding $100,000. This is being done via F(u)BARS and similar "informational" forms which will be matched to info collected via the FATCA IGA, then used to extort money from any one the IRS deems to be an American. Even if they have never lived in the US. Even though all of their income is Canadian and has been taxed by Canada. 
*
The FATCA IGA has nothing to do with taxes.* It is a treaty between Canada and the IRS. The IRS is not authorized by Congress to negotiate such a treaty. Nor is Congress going to ratify this treaty. By enabling this treaty Canada is agreeing to give the FATCA IGA precedence over existing tax treaties, Canadian privacy laws, Canadian banking laws and even the Canadian Charter of Rights. To make it more insulting they are enabling it via an omnibus budget bill, and making that legislation effective on Canada Day.

FATCA is a blatant attempt to gather data on Canadians who happen to have ties (however tenuous) to the US. The data being collected does not include things like wages, dividends or interest which could in any way relate to taxes. It does include details of financial accounts that the CRA currently requires a court order to obtain. The only possible purpose of the data collected is to extort huge sums of money from Canadians who in almost every case owe little or more likely nothing to the US in taxes. The vehicle for this are; F(u)BARS, 8938s, 3520s and a host of other IRS information (extortion) forms that have zero impact on US taxes owed but do have Draconian (your life savings) penalties should anyone the IRS decides to call an American fail to file one or make an error in doing so. Yes the IGA really does let IRS call the shots as to whom they consider to be American.

Finally for a number of reasons Citizen Based Taxation is practiced by only two countries in the world. The USA and Eritrea. Canada properly told Eritrea what they should do with their one page tax forms. They should do the same to the thugs south of 49. 

To put this into perspective imagine a Newfoundlander who moves to Quebec. Under this system he would owe provincial taxes and have to file forms with NL and Quebec. Next he moves to Ontario and has to file with NL, Quebec and Ontario. He then moves to Alberta.... When you look at it that way you can see why every country in the world (except the USA) practices residence based taxation. That is you live there, you pay taxes there. That is a system that makes sense. That is what Canadian Law is based on and Canada should tell the US that US tax laws stop at the Canadian border.


----------



## Dr.G.

I think that PM Harper's security budget for when he is in Canada is less than this, regardless of where he is in the country.

"Increased security demands for former premier Alison Redford forced the province to hire the Calgary Police Service at a cost to taxpayers of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The demands outstripped the resources of Alberta Justice’s Executive Protection Unit, a specially trained unit of sheriffs that provides security to the premier, documents obtained by CBC News through freedom of information show.

In Nov. 2012, a senior officer with the provincial security unit asked the Calgary Police Service (CPS) to assume responsibility for Redford when she was in Calgary.

The CPS subsequently created a special unit — the Premier’s Protective Detail — to provide security services for Redford and her family not only in Calgary, but also in Canmore and Banff."

Alison Redford's extra security demands cost over $465K, documents show - Edmonton - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> To put this into perspective imagine a Newfoundlander who moves to Quebec. Under this system he would owe provincial taxes and have to file forms with NL and Quebec. Next he moves to Ontario and has to file with NL, Quebec and Ontario. He then moves to Alberta.... When you look at it that way you can see why every country in the world (except the USA) practices residence based taxation. That is you live there, you pay taxes there. That is a system that makes sense.


So sever your ties with the US. It doesn't matter if the law makes sense or not, if the law was passed by the US government.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> So sever your ties with the US. It doesn't matter if the law makes sense or not, if the law was passed by the US government.


I have already done so. However those accidental Americans the Harpo regime is so delightedly throwing under the omni-bus, have to settle with the IRS in order to ditch the albatross of American citizenship. In most cases that will cost them at least half and more likely all of their life savings. Money that was earned exclusively in Canada, and taxes were paid in Canada. For anyone whose net worth is over $2,000,000 US, they are also looking at paying 30% of their net worth to the US in exit taxes, again even though not a dime was earned in the US and no services or benefits were ever received from the US government.

In addition no matter how many years they went back they would probably owe the US either zero in taxes or at worst well under a few thousand dollars. That makes absolutely no difference, because the goal of the IRS is not to collect taxes. They are after penalties for failing to file the informational extortion forms such as F(u)BARS, 8938s and 3520s (and many others). 

BTW the IRS is also looking for reasons to label various Canadian banks and financial institutions non-compliant, which even with the IGA in effect will give them the power extort considerable sums from those institutions.

*Enabling this treaty by stealth via an omni-bus budget bill is despicable.* We know the con-meisters will use their majority to force it through regardless of the impact it has on more than a million Canadian citizens, but at least give it the level of debate it deserves. 

Again since Congress will not ratify this agreement and did not authorize the IRS to enter into it, whatever reciprocity Harper believes Canada will receive is entirely bogus. Having discovered how easy it is to club the Canadian government into submission there is nothing to stop the IRS from making even more obscene and intrusive demands in the future. 

The US Congress should not be re-writing Canada's laws and it is Harpers job to tell them exactly that.


----------



## Macfury

Congress passed FATCA in 2010.


----------



## Dr.G.

Moment in time: Churchill issues a great rhetorical blast 

At 65, back from political exile, the lion roared again. On May 10, Hitler's army invaded France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, and Britain's government fell. King George VI invited the canny old warrior Winston Churchill, First Lord of the Admiralty, to lead the country through the coming storm. Three days later, Churchill struck a war cabinet and pledged in his first speech to Parliament ''to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime.'' Having already served his country in various conflicts as a soldier and Secretary of War, he was armed and ready with the first great rhetorical blast of his new role: ''I have nothing to offer,'' he told politicians who would put aside partisanship to defeat the enemy, ''but blood, toil, tears and sweat.'' 

Some of this "blood, toil, tears and sweat" were Canadian. Lest we forget.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Congress passed FATCA in 2010.


Again that did not authorize the IRS to negotiate binding treaties on behalf of the USA. 

Incidentally that too was passed by stealth via a gigantic omnibus bill. Very few congressmen and Senators even read that part of the HIRE act. If you can get them to talk about it at all, to this very day most of them do not know they voted for FATCA, what FATCA is, or its implications for Americans living outside of the USA. 

The IGA is between Canada and the IRS only, and has no legal obligations whatsoever on the USA or even the IRS. There is zero chance of any of these IGAs being properly ratified by Congress. The US banksters do not want to be sending personal information on their clients to every nation on the planet, and unlike their Canadian counterparts are willing to spend and have been spending the lobbying dollars to block any efforts to ratify.
BTW the NDP gets it.


> OTTAWA - New Democrats are calling on the Conservatives to acknowledge the concerns with the U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) and agree to remove it from Budget Bill C-31.
> "Despite broad opposition, the Conservatives are charging ahead with the implementation of this agreement," said NDP National Revenue Critic Murray Rankin (Victoria). "Serious concerns remain about the potential violation of privacy and constitutional rights, as well as unknown costs to Canadians."
> Bill C-31 moves to implement the Canada-US intergovernmental agreement on the FATCA and also to *grant the Minister of National Revenue sweeping powers to make any regulation necessary to carry out the agreement. *
> "How can the Conservatives justify burying this agreement – that could negatively affect 1 million people and that has nothing to do with the budget – inside a 359-page omnibus bill," said NDP Finance Critic Nathan Cullen (Skeena—Bulkley Valley)."There’s no excuse. FATCA must be removed from the budget so it can be properly scrutinized.”


----------



## eMacMan

One of the worst aspects of Canada's roll in this is that the CRA does not have to notify individuals whose private financial information is sent along to the US.

Thus someone who maintains a US dollar account and/or occasionally receives money from the US could easily have their entire financial background passed along to the IRS even though they have zero ties to the USA. Furthermore the IRS makes it very clear in their non privacy statements on the F(u)BAR and other extortion forms, that any financial information received can and will be shared with any US federal agency you can possibly name. I would suggest that any consultants with US based clientele should seek advice from those expensive cross border tax types. At the very least they probably need to be filing 1040 NRs on their US based income.

Other potential victims are former American citizens who have renounced their citizenship and have no obligations whatsoever to the IRS. If the Canadian government is unaware that they are no longer US citizens you can safely give generous odds that they will pass information along to the IRS.

Only way anyone will ever know is if they file an FOI with the privacy commissioner. Even then it more than likely that any useful information will be redacted.


----------



## Macfury

Welcome to the 21st century.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Welcome to the 21st century.


Yep those in power have clearly expressed the desire to completely erode our individual rights and liberties. 

The only choice is to either say: "But I am not a Jew", or fully comprehend that the battle for the Canadian way of life is not fought by the military in Afghanistan, Libya or the Ukraine. It is fought here at home, by recognizing when something is wrong and having the courage to stand up and say so. 

The FATCA IGA is beyond wrong it is obscenely so. It's like having dinner at your favourite local restaurant, paying for it, then going across the street and paying MacDonalds for not eating there.


----------



## FeXL

Toe the party line or else...

On abortion, Justin Trudeau imposes ethical lobotomy on Liberals



> In the cockamamie world according to Trudeau, exceptions would be made only for incumbent MPs and candidates who had already been anointed before the hard line on abortion was declared. Previously, Liberal MPs had been permitted to vote freely on matters of conscience and, indeed, until two years ago, the party didn’t even have a formal position on abortion.
> 
> *Now we will have abortion-vetting for candidates* and a party platform that cleaves identically to the position long held by the NDP.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Feds using robocalls to root out unused phone lines



> The federal government has been running a massive robocall campaign out of Ottawa, dialling its own offices and hoping no one answers.
> 
> The objective? Ferret out and cancel the thousands of unused telephone lines that cost taxpayers millions each year.
> 
> *So far, the robocalls have found at least 8,000 of them.*


M'bold.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Toe the party line or else...
> 
> On abortion, Justin Trudeau imposes ethical lobotomy on Liberals


It's been said that abortion is the sacrament of modern liberalism.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It's been said that abortion is the sacrament of modern liberalism.


It seems every time a decision like this comes up, he manages to screw it up. Wonderful indicator of how he'd be as PM...


----------



## CubaMark

*In Canadian Politics, Honourable Means Showing Up*



> f there's one thing Canadian politicians love more than lying, ignoring problems, and wasting your money  --  it's being called "honourable."
> 
> The fussy prefix "The Honourable," or its snappy bilingual abbreviation "The Hon./L' Hon.," is a title jealously guarded by the hundreds of middle-rank politicians the Department of Heritage allows to hold it. They inscribe it on their business cards, name tags, websites, and press releases; they demand it uttered during introductions to speeches and interviews. Some have even crammed it into their Twitter handles (witness: @HonJohnBaird).
> 
> Whenever a tradition is this slavishly obeyed, odds are good its original purpose has been long forgotten.





> Senators Wallin, Duffy, and Brazeau. All have been subjected to enormous public shame for abusing Senate expense accounts (which were administered, it should be noted, on the "honour system"), yet all refuse to abandon office on the pretext they've "done nothing wrong" in a strictly legal sense.





> ven the traditional customs of holding others accountable for their lack of honour have eroded.
> 
> The parliamentary non-confidence vote, for example. Once understood as the ultimate gentlemanly technique of expressing disgust and disappointment in an unethical government, they're now simply a partisan tool to force an opportunistic election at moments of maximum partisan gain.


(HuffPo)


----------



## SINC

That anyone thinks there is any 'honour' in Canadian politics from municipal on up is laughable. Politicians are the very lowest of the low and they continue to prove it, time and again no matter their political stripe.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> That anyone thinks there is any 'honour' in Canadian politics from municipal on up is laughable. Politicians are the very lowest of the low and they continue to prove it, time and again no matter their political stripe.


On this we can completely agree.


----------



## eMacMan

We all remember Vic Toews and the Bill C30 fiasco. Well it's back for round 4 this time posing as Bill C13 with Peter MacKay doing the dirty work.

This should be reason enough to turf that piece of 5#!t one more time.

RCMP use of data may spark probe | The Chronicle Herald


----------



## eMacMan

Been listening to the very short testimony on the Senate and house Finance committees review of Bill C31.

About half of the testimony was from banksters praising the Harpolites for saving their butts from FATCA. Which left almost no time for those who have to deal with the mess to testify. As short as the sessions were to begin with, they were further shortened from 90 to 60 minutes.

So what did I learn. *FATCA enabling legislation does not have to be passed immediately.* The Harper regime has signed the IGA, even if Canada does not pass enabling legislation immediately, they have at least until the end of the year and probably into March of next year before the extortion enabling legislation needs to be in place. This is far too complex an issue to be fully dealt with in 3 or 4 hours of committee testimony. It should never have been included as part of an omnibus bill. Separate it out and do it right.

Something completely unexpected slipped out as well. Despite describing FATCA as about the most flawed legislation ever passed by Congress, it turns out that the G20 is using it as a model for multiple international bi-lateral agreements. So Canadians with obscure ties to say Russia or China may well see their sensitive banking information shared with those nations as well. 

Besides the security issues with using the CRA as a transfer agent, and all the organizations which the IRS passes the information along to, it turns out all that extremely sensitive banking information will go to a private corporation which will correlate it then pass it back to the IRS. 

And Harpo would want us to believe that information is secure!


----------



## screature

*What does it take for the Huffington Post to get PUNKED?.. it seems just this!*

Scott Vrooman's Sun News Interview Is Painful And Hilarious (VIDEO)

What is incredible is that the Huff (and other left of centre got publications) got punked so bad and yet they are so oblivious to it....

Stupid is, as stupid does.


----------



## Macfury

Man, it's so obvious that the SUN anchor is in on it.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Man, it's so obvious that the SUN anchor is in on it.


It's obvious to intelligent people. The reaction of the HuffPo readers is even funnier. As a contributor to "This is That", Vroorman is a master of taking satire to a level that really exposes people's ignorance about issues that they think they are invested in.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> It's obvious to intelligent people.


...... *crickets* .......

https://twitter.com/mescottvrooman


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> ...... *crickets* .......
> 
> https://twitter.com/mescottvrooman


...even more people oblivious to the fact that they are the ones who got punked. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

At this point it looks like even Vrooman didn't get the fact that the Sun anchor was just laughing and playing long with it. Perhaps he's as big a dope a his Twitter followers.


----------



## eMacMan

Thought we had a separate thread for the F-35 but my searches turned up zilch.

Anyways seems if you want to use the vertical landing and take-off feature you'll need to replace the runway a little too frequently.

Our New Stealth Jet Can't Land


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> At this point it looks like even Vrooman didn't get the fact that the Sun anchor was just laughing and playing long with it. Perhaps he's as big a dope a his Twitter followers.


I would have liked to see him interviewed by Ezra or Brian Lilly. It would have been more interesting.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> I would have liked to see him interviewed by Ezra or Brian Lilly. It would have been more interesting.


It cracks me up that his two-bit comedy routine is considered some sort of subversive prank. He was stumbling through the interview so badly that any other interviewer would have eaten him alive, rather than laughing at his half-assed jokes.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> It cracks me up that his two-bit comedy routine is considered some sort of subversive prank. He was stumbling through the interview so badly that any other interviewer would have eaten him alive, rather than laughing at his half-assed jokes.


i think Ezra would have owned him with his own sarcasm.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *In Canadian Politics, Honourable Means Showing Up*


This guy has no idea what he is talking about. The title Honourable is bestowed on anyone who is appointed to Privy Council so typically Ministers but others as well. That is it cut and dry not the gobbledegookk he spouts.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> This guy has no idea what he is talking about. The title Honourable is bestowed on anyone who is appointed to Privy Council so typically Ministers but others as well. That is it cut and dry not the gobbledegookk he spouts.


I think his premise that the current crop of crooks (all of them, not just the Cons) no longer honour that title is pretty much spot on, but I am open to hearing whatever exceptions you may have to offer.

From what I have seen so far I think Brent Rathgeber would qualify, and somewhat surprisingly, at least to me, Elizabeth May.


----------



## eMacMan

Oops!


----------



## eMacMan

As we speak.

This amendment makes a ton of sense. The US has signed the IGA. This makes it clear that Canadian citizens are just that and not Americans being temporarily stored in Canada.

The cons have already made it clear that their fealty is to the banksters and the IRS. Canadian citizens are only there to be tossed under the omnibus. When they vote against this amendment will make that undeniably clear.



> *BREAKING NEWS:* I just spoke with Scott Brison’s Policy Advisor. Mr. Brison has presented an amendment to the Finance Committee. A vote will be late this afternoon or sometime tonight.
> Ref.: 6611875 Clause/Article 99
> Page 73 Page 73
> COMMITTEE STAGE
> May 22, 2014
> Mr. Brison (Kings—Hants)
> ÉTAPE DU COMITÉ
> 22 mai 2014
> M. Brison (Kings—Hants)
> That Bill C-31, in Clause 99, be amended by
> adding after line 11 on page 73 the following:
> Que le projet de loi C-31, à l’article 99, soit
> modifié par adjonction, après la ligne 11, page
> 73, de ce qui suit :
> “(2) Despite any other provision of this Act
> or the Agreement, for all purposes related to
> the implementation of this Act and the
> Agreement, “U.S. Person” and “Specified
> U.S. Person” does not include any person
> who is
> « (2) Malgré les autres dispositions de la
> présente loi ou de l’Accord, dans le cadre de
> la mise en oeuvre de la présente loi et de
> l’Accord, « personne des États-Unis » et
> « personne désignée des États-Unis » ne
> visent pas la personne qui, à la fois :
> (a) a Canadian citizen within the meaning of
> the Citizenship Act or a permanent resident
> within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the
> Immigration and Refugee Protection Act; and
> a) est un citoyen canadien au sens de la Loi
> sur la citoyenneté ou un résident permanent
> au sens du paragraphe 2(1) de la Loi sur
> l’immigration et la protection des réfugiés;
> (b) ordinarily resident in Canada.” b) réside habituellement au Canada. »​ She advised they Mr. Brison has also submitted other amendments, including one that would ensure other Canadian laws prevail over the Implementation Act, (instead of having this law prevail over those laws).
> 
> 
> This is essentially a formalized version of the amendment Anne Frank suggested and that Schubert and I sent to Brison, Rankin and Cullen. The second amendment Brison put forth is a varation of one I suggested–to remove the section that prevails over all other Canadian laws
> She said the NDP and Elizabeth May have submitted similar amendments. She expects support for the amendment from the NDP and Greens (although the Greens do not have a vote at the Committee), but does not know if the Conservatives will support it.Ted Hsu will be present for the Liberals to speak on this.
> 
> 
> The Finance Committee will begin a clause by clause review and will consider these amendments at *3:30 today.* A vote will likely take place on each amendment tonight. She was not able to say what time that would be.


From: maplesandbox.ca


----------



## eMacMan

As predicted the cons did indeed vote against the said amendment. 

Incredibly stupid move by the con-meißters as this amendment would have left intact what the IRS claims they are after, at the same time protecting Canadians from outright extortion by the worlds most powerful terrorist organization.


----------



## eMacMan

Meanwhile on the soused side of the border, this is finally getting some serious attention. If Jim Bopp is as successful with this challenge as he has been in the past, the Con-Meißters will be looking even more weasel-like than they already do. It's a treaty stupid, have enough respect for the Canadian citizens you are financially castrating, to at least treat it like a treaty.



> “The U.S. Constitution protects every citizen’s liberty and freedom, while FATCA undermines both,” Mr. Bopp told The Washington Times. “This astonishingly bad law manages to thumb its nose at the Constitution.”
> 
> 
> His legal challenge once again will put him on the opposite side of Republican John McCain, the long-serving senator from Arizona who was one of the two key sponsors — along with then-Sen. Russ Feingold, Wisconsin Democrat — of the campaign finance limits that Mr. Bopp defeated before the Supreme Court in 2010.
> 
> Read more: Superlawyer Jim Bopp takes on McCain-backed tax act that targets Americans overseas - Washington Times
> 
> ​


----------



## eMacMan

Now that the Con-Meißters have stonewalled the various amendments that would have protected Canadians from the IRS extortion racket known as the FATCA IGA, a constitutional challenge has been officially launched.

This will be very costly and I would urge you to make at least a small contribution. I know the general reaction will be; "But I'm not Jewish" oops I meant to say; "But I'm not American". The principal however is the same. The real enemies of democracy attack the foundations at home. The battle is not fought in Afghanistan or Libya or the Ukraine. It is fought here.

The Con-meißters have attacked the Canadian Charter of Rights by signing the FATCA IGA and stonewalling amendments that would have preserved the Constitution, the Charter, and Canadian Privacy laws.

A couple of quotes from the rotating set at:
Home

The website set up to collect funds for the constitutional challenge.



> “My wife’s and my First Nations ancestors helped form this great country. Our Canadian government plans to help the IRS seize our private financial records simply because my wife was born in the U.S.
> PROTECT our Charter rights.”





> “I was born in the USA to Canadian parents. When I was a few days old,
> my parents brought me home to
> New Brunswick. I have been a Canadian police officer for 33 years. I have always voted Conservative, but can no longer support a party that will not afford me the same Charter rights that are extended to our most heinous criminals.”


If you have 20 minutes I would urge you to view this video which contains a number of clips from the finance committee proceedings. I can assure you it is not dull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slqAkW_eeUA&feature=youtu.be

I suffered through the entire process and assure you the Con-meißters were not quoted out of context. OTOH one of the most egregious clips did not make the cut. That was when Mr. Keddy somehow spun the Privacy Commissioners "grave misgivings" into a green light on privacy issues.

FWIW the body language of the rest of the Con-meißters gave a clear indication that they knew what they were doing was wrong, but they went ahead and did it any ways.


----------



## eMacMan

War Of 1812 Bicentennial: Tories Spending Big To Become Party Of Patriotism
What a difference 3 years makes.

Now the Cons have signed the FATCA IGA, tacked the enabling legislation onto an omnibus budget bill and made American tax regulations superior to: Existing Tax Treaties, Canadian Privacy law, The Canadian Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights. As a not so free bonus he has thrown over a million Canadians under that omnibus. Expect the CRA to spend long gun registry numbers acting as the clearing agent for the IRS extortion ring.

Obviously Harpo's patriotism did not extend beyond tossing a few bucks to his party buds and a photo-op or two.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> War Of 1812 Bicentennial: Tories Spending Big To Become Party Of Patriotism
> What a difference 3 years makes.
> 
> Now the Cons have signed the FATCA IGA, tacked the enabling legislation onto an omnibus budget bill and made American tax regulations superior to: Existing Tax Treaties, Canadian Privacy law, The Canadian Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights. As a not so free bonus he has thrown over a million Canadians under that omnibus. Expect the CRA to spend long gun registry numbers acting as the clearing agent for the IRS extortion ring.
> 
> Obviously Harpo's patriotism did not extend beyond tossing a few bucks to his party buds and a photo-op or two.





















Even a dog knows this is true and where the real blame lies... but I know it doesn't fit your political agenda so you continue to ignore the truth and facts.


----------



## Dr.G.

Australian PM's ‘Canadia' gaffe the butt of jokes on social media - The Globe and Mail

MacDoc should run for PM "down under" when he formally moves there ................. at least he would not mispronounce the name of Canada.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Even a dog knows this is true and where the real blame lies... but I know it doesn't fit your political agenda so you continue to ignore the truth and facts.


Thanks for a perfect illustration of the Harpo arrogance that has been a part of the FATCA IGA sellout pretty much from day 1. 

The omnibus POS has now passed. As Harpo himself described it. "Totally anti-democratic"

BTW I don't promote or support any political party, and unlike the Con-meißters I do not have a political agenda. However I do object strenuously to our Government sacrificing the constitutional and charter rights of Canadian citizens.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Thanks for a perfect illustration of the Harpo arrogance that has been a part of the FATCA IGA sellout pretty much from day 1.
> 
> The omnibus POS has now passed. As Harpo himself described it. "Totally anti-democratic"
> 
> BTW I don't promote or support any political party, and unlike the Con-meißters I do not have a political agenda. However I do object strenuously to our Government sacrificing the constitutional and charter rights of Canadian citizens.


You just don't get it. It isn't Harper it is Obama... sometimes I think you are willfully ignorant.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You just don't get it. It isn't Harper it is Obama... sometimes I think you are willfully ignorant.


No Harper is the one who agreed to bury existing treaties, and declared American tax laws superior to Canadian Privacy Laws, Canadian Banking Laws, The Canadian Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights. Without Harpo's help FATCA extortion racket would have been unenforceable. 

Letting the IRS rewrite Canada's laws is completely unacceptable. The manner in which it was enabled through an omni-bus budget bill way beyond insulting to all Canadian citizens. As Harper himself once observed: Anti-democratic.

The cons claim that the CRA will not help the IRS collect those Draconian 8938, 3520, and FBAR (now called finCEN114) penalties is also total BS. If the IRS demands that assistance, Harper has already proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that he will cave. 

When it comes to collecting those penalties at the heart of the IRS extortion racket, it is extremely likely the IRS will simply bypass the CRA. The IRS will be able to force any of the Big 5 banks to seize or freeze accounts at their whim. This is because these banks have US branches and part of banking in the USA is agreeing to do what the IRS tells them to do, even in another country. Harper, by signing the FATCA IGA, has declared that IRS tax laws take precedence over Canadian banking regulations, so the tracks are now clear for the launch of the biggest extortion scam in the planets history.


Cost to Canadians and the Canadian economy, $10s of Billions, maybe $100s of Billions? We don't know because the finance committee refused to even explore this area. A good guess is that the cost for the CRA to create the discriminatory FATCA mega data base may well exceed the cost of the Long Gun Registry. That of course is small potatoes compared to the $10s or even $100s of Billions that the IRS is hoping to drain from Canadian bank accounts and investors via 8938, 3520, FBAR (renamed finCEN-114) and other draconian penalization forms. Those forms have one thing in common, they collect sensitive private financial information and have no relation to taxes.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> No Harper is the one who agreed to bury existing treaties, and declared American tax laws superior to Canadian Privacy Laws, Canadian Banking Laws, The Canadian Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights. Without Harpo's help FATCA extortion racket would have been unenforceable.
> 
> Letting the IRS rewrite Canada's laws is completely unacceptable. The manner in which it was enabled through an omni-bus budget bill way beyond insulting to all Canadian citizens. As Harper himself once observed: Anti-democratic.
> 
> The cons claim that the CRA will not help the IRS collect those Draconian 8938, 3520, and FBAR (now called finCEN114) penalties is also total BS. If the IRS demands that assistance, Harper has already proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that he will cave.
> 
> When it comes to collecting those penalties at the heart of the IRS extortion racket, it is extremely likely the IRS will simply bypass the CRA. The IRS will be able to force any of the Big 5 banks to seize or freeze accounts at their whim. This is because these banks have US branches and part of banking in the USA is agreeing to do what the IRS tells them to do, even in another country. Harper, by signing the FATCA IGA, has declared that IRS tax laws take precedence over Canadian banking regulations, so the tracks are now clear for the launch of the biggest extortion scam in the planets history.
> 
> 
> Cost to Canadians and the Canadian economy, $10s of Billions, maybe $100s of Billions? We don't know because the finance committee refused to even explore this area. A good guess is that the cost for the CRA to create the discriminatory FATCA mega data base may well exceed the cost of the Long Gun Registry. That of course is small potatoes compared to the $10s or even $100s of Billions that the IRS is hoping to drain from Canadian bank accounts and investors via 8938, 3520, FBAR (renamed finCEN-114) and other draconian penalization forms. Those forms have one thing in common, they collect sensitive private financial information and have no relation to taxes.


OOPS left out the the cost of the various banks and financial institutions collecting and passing along all that data to the CRA. 

Also left out the cost of fighting the inevitable charter challenge. Probably 2-3 million for those of us who feel this to be a cause worth fighting and perhaps ten times that amount spent by the government in what should prove a losing cause. After all in two years of top secret negotiations they ignored the input of Canada's top constitutional expert, who told them it would not withstand a Charter challenge. They even voted down amendments that would have removed the discriminatory aspects.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Cost to Canadians and the Canadian economy, $10s of Billions, maybe $100s of Billions?


That's tinfoil hat territory. You also have no proof that the Canadian government will help collect that money.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> That's tinfoil hat territory. You also have no proof that the Canadian government will help collect that money.


First of all, while the data being collected is quite sensitive, none of it relates to collecting taxes. The IRS is simply looking for Americans living in Canada with bank accounts big enough to steal. 

There is a ton of proof that this is their intent. The con recommended approach for those caught in the net is to get IRS compliant. We have plenty of first hand testimony on that route. Those who have filed under the OVDP (Offshore {not so} Voluntary Disclosure Program), seldom end up owing any taxes at all. OTOH they do end up paying penalization form penalties of $80,000, $100,000 and even more. We know that at least a million Canadian citizens are caught in this trap. Clearly the math would indicate that $10 Billion would be an extremely Conservative figure. I am sure the IRS targets are far more Liberal.

As mentioned in the previous post the IRS probably does not need any help collecting, at least where accounts are held in the Big 5 banks or with major Canadian investment firms. However if the IRS does demand help from Canada does any one believe, that a government that was blackmailed by the IRS into signing the FATCA IGA, would suddenly develop sufficient backbone to stand up to the IRS? If you are willing to buy that, man have I got a ground floor investment opportunity for you.

Back in 2011 when Flaherty was promising that Canada would stand up to this, I said the cons would crumble. When they did capitulate I even predicted they would slide it through in an omnibus budget bill. I am also predicting the cons will capitulate if the IRS demands help extorting money from Canadians. Even if they do not owe the IRS a dime in taxes. No crystal ball required. The cons record speaks for itself.


----------



## Macfury

This is all guesswork. If you're a frightened American in Canada, move your money into a credit union.



eMacMan said:


> First of all, while the data being collected is quite sensitive, none of it relates to collecting taxes. The IRS is simply looking for Americans living in Canada with bank accounts big enough to steal.
> 
> There is a ton of proof that this is their intent. The con recommended approach for those caught in the net is to get IRS compliant. We have plenty of first hand testimony on that route. Those who have filed under the OVDP (Offshore {not so} Voluntary Disclosure Program), seldom end up owing any taxes at all. OTOH they do end up paying penalization form penalties of $80,000, $100,000 and even more. We know that at least a million Canadian citizens are caught in this trap. Clearly the math would indicate that $10 Billion would be an extremely Conservative figure. I am sure the IRS targets are far more Liberal.
> 
> As mentioned in the previous post the IRS probably does not need any help collecting, at least where accounts are held in the Big 5 banks or with major Canadian investment firms. However if the IRS does demand help from Canada does any one believe, that a government that was blackmailed by the IRS into signing the FATCA IGA, would suddenly develop sufficient backbone to stand up to the IRS? If you are willing to buy that, man have I got a ground floor investment opportunity for you.
> 
> Back in 2011 when Flaherty was promising that Canada would stand up to this, I said the cons would crumble. When they did capitulate I even predicted they would slide it through in an omnibus budget bill. I am also predicting the cons will capitulate if the IRS demands help extorting money from Canadians. Even if they do not owe the IRS a dime in taxes. No crystal ball required. The cons record speaks for itself.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> This is all guesswork. If you're a frightened American in Canada, move your money into a credit union.


Were that it were only Americans. The IRS gets to call the shots as to who is and is not an American. The cons voted down at least two amendments that would have addressed that. There are a lot of "Americans" that do not even know they are American. That includes any snowbirds that spend more than 120 days a year south of the border.

And how long before the IRS demands that small credit unions participate? The cons have already obligated the bigger ones.

The point here is that of the million plus IRS targets living in Canada, probably 900,000 are unaware of what's coming. To have protected themselves they needed to see this coming back in 2010 when McCain slipped the FATCA legislation into a monster omnibus bill. A few of us did and are therefore free to speak very loudly. Those wrapped in the net tend to be a lot more quiet in fear of drawing attention to themselves.

Any of those 900,000 who have not been filing US taxes, FBARS, 3520s 8938s..... their entire life savings are at extreme risk. If your in your 20s with $15,000 in the bank, no big deal. You have a lifetime to recover. Those of or near retirement age are the real targets. These folks do not have a working lifetime to recoup the losses. If the IRS does succeed in this extortion racket, ultimately they will end up drawing on social welfare programs at taxpayer expense. A prospect that should delight any neo-con. Another plus is that any of those RESPs or RDSPs are still fair game for the IRS and most of these have contributions not just from account holder but taxpayers as well.

BTW the bit about not reporting RRSPs, RESPs, RDSPs is another con slight of hand. The individual still needs to pay taxes and file the gamut of penalization forms on these. The non reporting applies only to financial institutions. By promoting it in the manner they do, the cons are setting up even more victims.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> No Harper is the one who agreed to bury existing treaties, and declared American tax laws superior to Canadian Privacy Laws, Canadian Banking Laws, The Canadian Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights. Without Harpo's help FATCA extortion racket would have been unenforceable.
> 
> Letting the IRS rewrite Canada's laws is completely unacceptable. The manner in which it was enabled through an omni-bus budget bill way beyond insulting to all Canadian citizens. As Harper himself once observed: Anti-democratic.
> 
> The cons claim that the CRA will not help the IRS collect those Draconian 8938, 3520, and FBAR (now called finCEN114) penalties is also total BS. If the IRS demands that assistance, Harper has already proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that he will cave.
> 
> When it comes to collecting those penalties at the heart of the IRS extortion racket, it is extremely likely the IRS will simply bypass the CRA. The IRS will be able to force any of the Big 5 banks to seize or freeze accounts at their whim. This is because these banks have US branches and part of banking in the USA is agreeing to do what the IRS tells them to do, even in another country. Harper, by signing the FATCA IGA, has declared that IRS tax laws take precedence over Canadian banking regulations, so the tracks are now clear for the launch of the biggest extortion scam in the planets history.
> 
> 
> Cost to Canadians and the Canadian economy, $10s of Billions, maybe $100s of Billions? We don't know because the finance committee refused to even explore this area. A good guess is that the cost for the CRA to create the discriminatory FATCA mega data base may well exceed the cost of the Long Gun Registry. That of course is small potatoes compared to the $10s or even $100s of Billions that the IRS is hoping to drain from Canadian bank accounts and investors via 8938, 3520, FBAR (renamed finCEN-114) and other draconian penalization forms. Those forms have one thing in common, they collect sensitive private financial information and have no relation to taxes.



What a bunch of speculative hogwash, the entire post. You really are quite off the deep end on this subject. Seek help.

And again it is Obama's policy. Flaherty negotiated a compromise so that the US wouldn't arbitrarily penalize the big 5 banks which then means all Canadians pay the price. You're completely naive if you think the government had any ability available to stop Obama and the US from implementing FATCA, it was going to happen one way or the other.

I have said it to you before your anger at the Canadian government is completely misguided.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> What a bunch of speculative hogwash, the entire post. You really are quite off the deep end on this subject. Seek help.
> 
> And again it is Obama's policy. Flaherty negotiated a compromise so that the US wouldn't arbitrarily penalize the big 5 banks which then means all Canadians pay the price. You're completely naive if you think the government had any ability available to stop Obama and the US from implementing FATCA, it was going to happen one way or the other.
> 
> I have said it to you before your anger at the Canadian government is completely misguided.


I have never ever questioned Harpers loyalty to the big five banks. 

If he had any loyalty at all to the citizens of Canada, he would have pulled the IGA enabling legislation from the omnibus bill and allowed the level of debate appropriate to a treaty.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I have never ever questioned Harpers loyalty to the big five banks.
> 
> If he had any loyalty at all to the citizens of Canada, he would have pulled the IGA enabling legislation from the omnibus bill and allowed the level of debate appropriate to a treaty.


You clearly have no understanding of the process and obviously have a vested interest in protecting your questionable "financial planning"...

Too bad for you, but all you do is spread FUD based on your own questionable personal position.

I have asked you several times now to give real details as to how FATCA will affect you adversely and you have never answered. All you do is spread FUD and pure speculation to discredit the Canadian government all the while completely neglecting the facts that I present to you regarding who the real culprit is...

AFAIC you have zero credibility on the subject until you come clean on how FATCA affects you directly. For all I know you are a dual citizen trying money launder your ill gotten gains in Canada. 

The more you protest without any actual real life information the more I am inclined to believe that is in fact the case.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You clearly have no understanding of the process and obviously have a vested interest in protecting your questionable "financial planning"...
> 
> Too bad for you, but all you do is spread FUD based on your own questionable personal position.
> 
> I have asked you several times now to give real details as to how FATCA will affect you adversely and you have never answered. All you do is spread FUD and pure speculation to discredit the Canadian government all the while completely neglecting the facts that I present to you regarding who the real culprit is...
> 
> AFAIC you have zero credibility on the subject until you come clean on how FATCA affects you directly. For all I know you are a dual citizen trying money launder your ill gotten gains in Canada.
> 
> The more you protest without any actual real life information the more I am inclined to believe that is in fact the case.


Hopefully I have dotted enough i's and crossed enough t's that beyond contributing to the Charter challenge, I won't be harmed. But since we are talking about the IRS that can never be stated with absolute certainty. 

I do know either personally or via correspondence a lot of Canadian citizens, some who have lived here all their lives, others who merely had the misfortune to love and marry an American citizen. Most of them were unaware of the ramifications of FATCA back in 2010 and have not been able to fully protect their life savings. I am certain I speak for them as they have let me know so on several occasions.

I have more than adequately supported my contention that the purpose of FATCA is to allow the IRS to pinpoint and hunt down those who have not been filing F(u)BAR and similar penalization forms. The data demanded of Canadian banks, matches the data demanded on those forms. OTOH The data demanded by FATCA has nothing to do with taxes. The money the IRS has been collecting from Americans abroad is almost 100% related to those forms. In most cases, the taxes owed are zero or at most one or two hundred dollars. The F(u)BAR penalties however often approach or exceed $100,000. 

The IRS has gone to a lot of expense foist this faux treaty on nations around the world. Anyone believing they have not figured out how to cash in, is the one living in a fantasy world. I think the cons are hoping that as the CRA does not have to transfer this data to the IRS until July, 2015 they will squeak out an election victory before the $#!t really hits the fan or more dramatically the IRS starts draining Canadian bank accounts. Perhaps they are right, and perhaps the myriad campaigns underway to warn Americans will have taken hold by then and besides blowing off the support of Veterans, Harper will have lost our support as well.

Even the con members on the finance committee were able to figure out that Canada is not a haven for tax evaders. What was extremely disturbing was their seeming total ignorance of the possible impact of this law on Canadian citizens, often echoed by yourself.

The IRS tells those who do not enter their (non) voluntary disclosure program, thereby sacrificing a sizeable chunk of their life savings, that the IRS will seize even more once FATCA is fully in place. Clearly the IRS believes it can force Canada's big financial institutions to seize assets of those it claims to be American. If they fail there, how can anyone possibly believe that Harper will stand up to the IRS if they demand his help. This was blackmail pure and simple and since Harper succumbed once he will certainly succumb again.

Beyond that this is clearly discriminatory against one group of Canadian citizens and will fail a charter challenge but only after enormous expense has been incurred by Canada's banks, the CRA, and those who will have to challenge it.

As to winning concessions, the cons got nothing that was not already on the table from the very early days of negotiations. This was clearly confirmed or rather reluctantly admitted to, during the committee hearings. Hell they could not even get the IRS to implement this abomination on some day other than Canada Day. They did do an end around that greatly benefitted Canadian Banks but at the literal expense of a million Canadian citizens.

Again Harper knew that including a treaty as part of the budget omnibus bill was wrong and anti-democratic. He did it anyway.


----------



## Macfury

Doesn't matter if it has to do with taxes or forms. As unfair as it is, this is Obama's baby.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Doesn't matter if it has to do with taxes or forms. As unfair as it is, this is Obama's baby.


Doesn't cut it.

Even if he was blackmailed into it Harper did cave. 

When/if the IRS needs help furthering their extortion racket they know he will cave again.

Canada went into this holding a very strong hand and was completely unable to see it or perhaps Harper folded hoping that BO would approve Keystone.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Doesn't cut it.
> 
> Even if he was blackmailed into it Harper did cave.
> 
> When/if the IRS needs help furthering their extortion racket they know he will cave again.
> 
> Canada went into this holding a very strong hand and was completely unable to see it or perhaps Harper folded hoping that BO would approve Keystone.


Never visit the US again and don't pay.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Doesn't cut it.
> 
> Even if he was blackmailed into it Harper did cave.
> 
> When/if the IRS needs help furthering their extortion racket they know he will cave again.
> 
> *Canada went into this holding a very strong hand and was completely unable to see it or perhaps Harper folded hoping that BO would approve Keystone.*


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Alberta economy to lead Canada in 2014 by far, RBC says - Business - CBC News

Thank you, Kathleen Wynne!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Thank you, Kathleen Wynne!


Speaking of which, how's it look from the inside? Any chance she's gone?

Ran across this a few days back. Sorry...

Ontario, Canada: A Mirror of America’s Economic Future Mortgaged To Falsified Climate Science



> [Maurice] Strong chaired the Rio 92 conference and in the same year was appointed to Ontario Hydro. He became Chair and was given free rein by Bob Rae, socialist Premier of the Province. He set about applying the philosophy and policies enshrined in the UNEP program. These were designed to demonize CO2 as the byproduct of fossil fuel driven industries and nations. It was speculated by Strong in his comments to Elaine Dewar cited in The Cloak of Green (1995). He suggested,
> 
> _“Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”​_


From the comments:



> “Today, Ontario electricity costs average over 9 cents per kWh, delivery costs 3 cents per kWh or more, the 0.7-cent debt retirement charge is still being charged, plus a new 8% provincial sales tax. Additional regulatory charges take all-in costs to well over 15 cents per kWh.. The increase in the past 10 years averaged over 11% annually. Recently, the Energy Minister forecast the final consumer electricity bill will jump another 33% over the next three years and 42% in the next 5 years.”


----------



## Macfury

I think Toronto's Libs may provide enough heft to keep that old cheat in power.

The only reason Ontario has enough electricity at all at this point is that the Liberals have driven many major industrial power users. A win for Wynne!


----------



## eMacMan

Time to explode another bit of con disinformation about FATCA.

Last night I believe it was Mike Allen who claimed this would not have any effect on anyone with accounts under $1,000,000. Only partly true and only for existing accounts. The instant you open a new account those grandfather rules no longer apply. If you have had any checks or other deposits coming from the US, list a secondary US address, or maintain a US dollar account, then that threshold is $50,000 total at that institution. New accounts are fair game from the first dollar. 

Just today heard of someone rolling part of their RRSP into a new account, they were questioned about their citizenship(s) and their place of birth, even though FATCA legislation is not even yet in force. If their birthplace had been US, their entire account structure at that bank would now have to be considered compromised. There was an American parent but they thought it prudent to lie about that and claimed to be exclusively Canadian.

BTW anyone that is promoting this as no big deal, I have a double dog dare for you. Go out on the IRS website, down load the finCEN114 form which asks for the same info the banks will be passing along. Fill it out. Be sure to include your spouses information on any joint accounts. Don't leave out those Birth dates and Social Insurance Numbers. Now take a screen shot and post it here. 

I am sure far fewer people will have access to it here than when that info goes through CRA to the IRS, to a private corporation who will correlate it, back to the IRS, onto the NSA, FBI, CIA, DAFT (the new ATF), HSA........................

Go on I double dog dare ya!


----------



## screature

:yawn: Tell it to someone who might care, like... I don't know your MP for starters...

Caterwauling here is going to do you no good or others that you seem to think are at "risk"!

Eek the sky is falling!!!

Have you ever actually written/phoned/met your MP to complain? 

I highly doubt it becuase based on my observation of conspiracy theorists they never take any actual political action. All they do is bitch and moan without ever actually doing anything. 

So eMacMan, tell me, what actual action you have taken on this subject beyond posting here and to conspiracy theory sites, to try and actually affect change when it comes to FATCA.

Your first line of defence should be writing to the Obama administration seeing as they were the progenitors of the legislation and not the Canadian government.

It is passing strange that you have no criticism of the the US gov and all the blame lies with the Harper government when it is the US that forced the Canadian govs hand on this matter...

And yet you claim to have no political allegiances... 

Yeah right. 

Tell someone who cares or believes you.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> :yawn: Tell it to someone who might care, like... I don't know your MP for starters...
> 
> Caterwauling here is going to do you no good or others that you seem to think are at "risk"!
> 
> Eek the sky is falling!!!
> 
> Have you ever actually written/phoned/met your MP to complain?
> 
> I highly doubt it becuase based on my observation of conspiracy theorists they never take any actual political action. All they do is bitch and moan without ever actually doing anything.
> 
> So eMacMan, tell me, what actual action you have taken on this subject beyond posting here and to conspiracy theory sites, to try and actually affect change when it comes to FATCA.
> 
> Your first line of defence should be writing to the Obama administration seeing as they were the progenitors of the legislation and not the Canadian government.
> 
> It is passing strange that you have no criticism of the the US gov and all the blame lies with the Harper government when it is the US that forced the Canadian govs hand on this matter...
> 
> And yet you claim to have no political allegiances...
> 
> Yeah right.
> 
> Tell someone who cares or believes you.


Didn't think you believed your own malarky enough to prove it. The double dog dare stands.

It certainly is an easy proof. If the cons are not doing any harm by passing that info along to anyone who cares to peek, you should have no trouble sharing with the 50 or so people who might read your post.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Didn't think you believed your own malarky enough to prove it. The double dog dare stands.
> 
> It certainly is an easy proof. If the cons are not doing any harm by passing that info along to anyone who cares to peek, you should have no trouble sharing with the 50 or so people who might read your post.


What?

You are the one making the accusations so YOU need to provide the "proof".

You really are too funny... so much so that you make tears come to my eyes.

You still have not answered a single question I have asked... Not one.

Just to repeat the latest that you have dodged:



> Have you ever actually written/phoned/met your MP to complain?
> 
> I highly doubt it becuase based on my observation of conspiracy theorists they never take any actual political action. All they do is bitch and moan without ever actually doing anything.
> 
> So eMacMan, tell me, what actual action you have taken on this subject beyond posting here and to conspiracy theory sites, to try and actually affect change when it comes to FATCA.


No response.

This is for you eMacMan, as your post(s) and lack there of deserve it:


----------



## CubaMark

*Harper gov't asks for Canada's greatest icons; residents respond by naming Liberal, NDP leaders*

_Canadians have handed the Harper government a Top 10 list of the country's greatest heroes, featuring some of the Conservative party's greatest adversaries, past and present.

The list, compiled from online consultations in the run-up to Canada's 150th birthday in 2017, includes Pierre Trudeau, Jack Layton, David Suzuki and Lester B. Pearson.

About 12,000 Canadians participated in the online exercise, which began Dec. 11 and closed last month.

A five-part digital form included the question: Which Canadians have inspired you the most over the last 150 years?

The Canadian Heritage Department extracted a Top 10 list for an April 29 briefing note for the minister, Shelly Glover.

Only one clearly identifiable Conservative appears: Sir John A. Macdonald, Canada's first prime minister, in eighth place._


(CTV)


----------



## Macfury

There are really some jackals in that deck.


----------



## Dr.G.

The 10 Canadian Provinces, And What They Would Be Like As High School Kids | Thought Catalog

Interesting. These young people are the potential voters here in Canada.


----------



## Macfury

I see Ontario as the kid who has been at school so long he should be in Grade 16. He's out of shape and overweight and is always scrapping for a fight he can never win. Most people don't beat the crap out of him because they're starting to feel sorry for him. Whenever he tries to improve his life, he doubles down on his failures and identifies only his few remaining positive traits as those he needs to eliminate.


----------



## FeXL

Funny, looking from the inside out, I don't see Alberta like that at all. In addition, I think she missed Quebec by a country mile.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I see Ontario as the kid who has been at school so long he should be in Grade 16. He's out of shape and overweight and is always scrapping for a fight he can never win. Most people don't beat the crap out of him because they're starting to feel sorry for him. Whenever he tries to improve his life, he doubles down on his failures and identifies only his few remaining positive traits as those he needs to eliminate.


A unique view of the ON teen, Macfury. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Funny, looking from the inside out, I don't see Alberta like that at all. In addition, I think she missed Quebec by a country mile.


Having lived in Quebec most of my life, I think she nailed it.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> The 10 Canadian Provinces, And What They Would Be Like As High School Kids | Thought Catalog
> 
> Interesting. These young people are the potential voters here in Canada.


Overall I think it pretty good.


----------



## screature

*Speaking of Democratic Reform*

Being involved with Canadian politics I tend to think a lot about it... more than I should and what is good for my health.

But I had a thought about Michael Chong's Private Member's Bill regarding Democratic Reform and I thought of an amendment... It may be better of off to be a separate Bill, as I am not sure it would be well received as an amendment.. But this is my thought:
*
Any MP from any Party who is disgruntled with the party with whom they won the nomination for and was elected based on that party’s platform, whether they wish to become and independent or “cross the floor” to another party should have to resign as being an MP and they should have to run again as an independent or run (if nominated) as an MP for a different party.

Election results should not be transferable from one party to another. Quite frankly it is anti-democratic.*

My thought for the day.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Having lived in Quebec most of my life, I think she nailed it.


Not nearly enough of the petulant child.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Not nearly enough of the petulant child.


Ok I can see that... but then again I think she was being equally mild mannered overall so as to not make it too politically charged... as MF's counter for Ontario seemed to indicate.


----------



## screature

*Bump... Speaking of Democratic Reform*

Being involved with Canadian politics, I tend to think a lot about it... more than I should for what is good for my health.

But I had a thought about Michael Chong's Private Member's Bill regarding Democratic Reform and I thought of an amendment... It may be better off to be a separate Bill, as I am not sure it would be well received as an amendment.. But this is my thought:
*
Any MP from any Party who is disgruntled with the party with whom they won the nomination for and was elected based on that party’s platform, whether they wish to become an independent or “cross the floor” to another party, should have to resign as being an MP and they should have to run again as an independent or run (if nominated) as an MP for a different party in a new by-election.
*
Election results should not be transferable from one party to another post election at the whim of the MP elected. Quite frankly it is anti-democratic and a significant flaw in our current Parliamentary system.

My thought for the last 2 days.

What are your thoughts about this?


----------



## Macfury

I see crossing the floor as a betrayal of voters. However, if the party in power violates its own principles, I see no problem with an MP sitting as an independent in protest.


----------



## heavyall

I think abdicating the seat is too harsh. An automatic by-election should definitely be triggered though.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I see crossing the floor as a betrayal of voters. However, *if the party in power violates its own principles*, I see no problem with an MP sitting as an independent in protest.


Well I do agree and don't agree. It isn't for the MP to arbitrarily decide that on his/her own. 

But if an MP gets kicked out of his/her own caucus so that they *have* to become an Independent MP (unless it was for illegal wrong doings) then I think that should be an exception and they shouldn't have to run for re-election.

But if they become an Independent or cross the floor of their own volition then, IMO they most certainly should have to run for re-election.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I think abdicating the seat is too harsh. An automatic by-election should definitely be triggered though.


Technically there is no way to have a by-election until or unless the seat is abdicated.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Technically there is no way to have a by-election until or unless the seat is abdicated.


Of course. There'd probably be a lot of things that would need to be amended to make any manner of change in that direction a reality.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Of course. There'd probably be a lot of things that would need to be amended to make any manner of change in that direction a reality.


I still say that any MP who wants to switch parties or become an Independent of their own volition should have to resign first. People voted for Joe Schmoe in large part because of their political party affiliation. 

If they voted for Joe Schmoe, even though he/she was an Independent, they were clearly voting for that person alone. So in the case that when he/she who wants to become a member of an existing party caucus I think two things should happen first.

The members of that Electoral District Association (EDA) of Party X should have to vote as to whether not to accept him/her into the Party fold and then if that vote if favourable, the constituency at large should then have to vote as to whether or not they still want Joe Schmoe to be their MP, now that he/she is no longer an Independent but a member of Party X.

If the EDA of Party X doesn't vote to take Joe Schmoe into the Party fold then he/she would have to run again as an Independent in the by-election.

All of this would make MPs have to think long and hard before they decide to switch camps or become an Independent before doing so.

Also just to address MF's comment:



> However, if the party in power violates its own principles, I see no problem with an MP sitting as an independent in protest.


There could be no greater protest than simply resigning altogether, because it comes at no insignificant cost (in terms of income) to that individual. *That* takes *real* balls, simply switching sides while the game is in play and keeping your pay cheque... not so much.


----------



## eMacMan

Perhaps the best solution is to have MPs represent their constituents to the government, rather than representing their party to their constituents.

I can't recall a single case of someone running for one party simply to get elected, then crossing the floor once that was accomplished. Usually something triggers the event. I believe if MPs were consistently free to vote their conscience or the views of their constituency then there would seldom be defections.

As an aside. If members of a party have to be forced to vote for a particular bill then it is probably a pretty bad bill or at least contains portions that should not become law. I believe open votes would at the very least see legislation more carefully crafted and more conscientiously debated.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Usually something triggers the event. I believe if MPs were consistently free to vote their conscience or the views of their constituency then there would seldom be defections.


However, their conscience does not require them to join the other party.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Perhaps the best solution is to have MPs represent their constituents to the government, rather than representing their party to their constituents.*
> 
> I can't recall a single case of someone running for one party simply to get elected, then crossing the floor once that was accomplished. Usually something triggers the event. I believe *if MPs were consistently free to vote their conscience or the views of their constituency then there would seldom be defections.*
> 
> As an aside. *If members of a party have to be forced to vote for a particular bill then it is probably a pretty bad bill or at least contains portions that should not become law. I believe open votes would at the very least see legislation more carefully crafted and more conscientiously debated.*


They do both and it has been that way since the beginning.

Who knows what that is? A constituency is not homogeneous in its makeup. The best they can do is represent the views of those who elected them. It would be helpful if you stopped thinking in terms of non-existent absolutes. 

Not necessarily at all, sometimes (just as JT has shown with his stance on pro-choice) either you tow the party line (regardless of everything else you believe in) or you are not welcome. In a whipped system such as ours it is not a straight line that if you have to be whipped to vote a certain way it means it is a bad Bill or a good Bill for that matter, it is much more complex than you over simplistically present.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> I can't recall a single case of someone running for one party simply to get elected, then crossing the floor once that was accomplished.


David Emerson, 2006 comes to mind.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> They do both and it has been that way since the beginning.
> 
> Who knows what that is? A constituency is not homogeneous in its makeup. The best they can do is represent the views of those who elected them. It would be helpful if you stopped thinking in terms of non-existent absolutes.
> 
> Not necessarily at all, sometimes (just as JT has shown with his stance on pro-choice) either you tow the party line (regardless of everything else you believe in) or you are not welcome. In a whipped system such as ours it is not a straight line that if you have to be whipped to vote a certain way it means it is a bad Bill or a good Bill for that matter, it is much more complex than you over simplistically present.


Again if the governing party has to convince its own members to vote for legislation as opposed to forcing their vote, I can't see how the legislative process can possibly suffer.

Realistically the problem is not that it is too difficult to pass a bill but way too easy. The best time to anticipate and fix problems is before they become enshrined in law. So it would be far better to take time to craft legislation clearly, and review it oh so carefully. Better to pass 2 or 3 outstanding bills and maybe repeal another dozen bad ones than to pass 20 or 30 bills which are pathetic at worst and mediocre at best.

The essential laws are already in place, the nation will not fall if MPs take the time to do it right.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> David Emerson, 2006 comes to mind.


If the last time it happened was 8 years ago, then it is hardly worth creating legislation to cover the contingency.

Members who cross the floor for whatever reason, will face the electorate next go around. If the voters agree with their decision, they can express it at that time.

I would however favour a fairly streamlined method to allow constituents to recall an MP. That would make MPs responsible to the voters as well as to their party.


----------



## heavyall

Recall was one of the main planks in the Reform platform, but for some reason the other parties thought it was a laughable proposal. My guess that was nothing more than already elected MPs afraid of such a policy.

I think any change in the laws regarding floor crossing and or disagreements with your own party should also cover the opposite contingency: it should be illegal to expel an MP from caucus just because they voted against their party's position.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Recall was one of the main planks in the Reform platform, but for some reason the other parties thought it was a laughable proposal. My guess that was nothing more than already elected MPs afraid of such a policy.
> 
> I think any change in the laws regarding floor crossing and or disagreements with your own party should also cover the opposite contingency: it should be illegal to expel an MP from caucus just because they voted against their party's position.


Yep they lost interest in that when they gained a minority. I'd say that was rather predictable.

Agree with the second thought.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Yep they lost interest in that when they gained a minority. I'd say that was rather predictable.


Reformers never lost interest in it. It was the PCs that insisted on it being dropped as a condition of the merger.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> If the last time it happened was 8 years ago, then it is hardly worth creating legislation to cover the contingency.
> 
> Members who cross the floor for whatever reason, will face the electorate next go around. If the voters agree with their decision, they can express it at that time.
> 
> I would however favour a fairly streamlined method to allow constituents to recall an MP. That would make MPs responsible to the voters as well as to their party.


People have crossed the floor many times since 2006, happened twice since 2011 with NDP MPs.

The number of times that it occurs is not in any way relevant to whether or not it is anti-democratic, which it is and why there should be severe consequences for doing so such as the ones I have outlined.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> People have crossed the floor many times since 2006, happened twice since 2011 with NDP MPs.
> 
> The number of times that it occurs is not in any way relevant to whether or not it is anti-democratic, which it is and why there should be severe consequences for doing so such as the ones I have outlined.


The process of Parties/leaders telling MPs how to vote regardless of the MPs stated views or those of his constituents is what is anti-democratic. Free votes would resolve that problem.


----------



## Macfury

You can't prove a vote is free, so there is no point in legislating it.



eMacMan said:


> The process of Parties/leaders telling MPs how to vote regardless of the MPs stated views or those of his constituents is what is anti-democratic. Free votes would resolve that problem.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> You can't prove a vote is free, so there is no point in legislating it.


You sound like the opponents of the fair elections act. :lmao:


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The process of Parties/leaders telling MPs how to vote regardless of the MPs stated views or those of his constituents is what is anti-democratic. Free votes would resolve that problem.


Well then I guess you won't be voting for any political party in the next federal legislation as they all do it.

Now if you want to talk about democratic reform in terms of eliminating the whipped system that we have, I am all ears and I could get on board with that.

But as it is now, *ALL* political parties in Canada Whip votes for government Bills. Once again they ALL do it has been built into our parliamentary system since it came into existence based on the Westminster system.

But that being said once again crossing the floor is also anti-democrtatic and should be abolished.


----------



## heavyall

The problem with eliminating whipped votes is how to implement it. You'd almost need the voting to be secret to stop the party from punishing an offside MP in some indirect manner that can't be proven. That creates the equally vexing issue where the public has a right to know how their MP voted on issues they care about. If there was a way to handle those two competing interests, I'd sure like to know how you'd go about it.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> The problem with eliminating whipped votes is how to implement it. You'd almost need the voting to be secret to stop the party from punishing an offside MP in some indirect manner that can't be proven. That creates the equally vexing issue where the public has a right to know how their MP voted on issues they care about. If there was a way to handle those two competing interests, I'd sure like to know how you'd go about it.


You raise an interesting point, but would it not be self policing if rules were enacted to prevent parties from punishing an MP for voting his own line rather than that of the party using the same voting system as now used? In other words, once in caucus, always in caucus, unless not re-elected. Or am I missing something?


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> You raise an interesting point, but would it not be self policing if rules were enacted to prevent parties from punishing an MP for voting his own line rather than that of the party using the same voting system as now used? In other words, once in caucus, always in caucus, unless not re-elected. Or am I missing something?


What I mean is, there are other reasons why someone might be removed from caucus. Often something that you'd think would get someone turfed doesn't, while other times a very minor thing has them permanently expelled. All a party would have to do is keep a detailed list of everything and anything, and simply claim it was one of those things that triggered the expulsion rather than a specific vote.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> What I mean is, there are other reasons why someone might be removed from caucus. Often something that you'd think would get someone turfed doesn't, while other times a very minor thing has them permanently expelled. All a party would have to do is keep a detailed list of everything and anything, and simply claim it was one of those things that triggered the expulsion rather than a specific vote.


Exactly. Or anyone removed from caucus for a good reason could claim it was done because thy once "voted their conscience."


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> What I mean is, there are other reasons why someone might be removed from caucus. Often something that you'd think would get someone turfed doesn't, while other times a very minor thing has them permanently expelled. All a party would have to do is keep a detailed list of everything and anything, and simply claim it was one of those things that triggered the expulsion rather than a specific vote.





Macfury said:


> Exactly. Or anyone removed from caucus for a good reason could claim it was done because thy once "voted their conscience."


Not so if *"once in caucus, always in caucus, unless not re-elected" was strictly enforced.* Simply remove the party's power to remove anyone from caucus with voters the only one with that power at the polls. Only reason for removal then would become committing a criminal offence and give the speaker power to remove an MP from parliament altogether at that point and force a by-election.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> The problem with eliminating whipped votes is how to implement it. You'd almost need the voting to be secret to stop the party from punishing an offside MP in some indirect manner that can't be proven. That creates the equally vexing issue where the public has a right to know how their MP voted on issues they care about. If there was a way to handle those two competing interests, I'd sure like to know how you'd go about it.


And the points you raise point exactly to why it hasn't been eliminated. 

It is indeed problematic, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't think about it. For the sake of Democratic Reform It in fact points to the pressing need *to* think about it.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> Not so if *"once in caucus, always in caucus, unless not re-elected" was strictly enforced.* Simply remove the party's power to remove anyone from caucus with voters the only one with that power at the polls. Only reason for removal then would become committing a criminal offence and give the speaker power to remove an MP from parliament altogether at that point and force a by-election.


I don't know. If someone is clearly offside from the party -- I mean gone full rogue and is completely freelancing and not representing the party's values -- the party should still be able to say, "this guy is not one of us" in an official capacity.

Also, even if "once in caucus, always in caucus, unless not re-elected" WAS enforced, there are still other ways that a party can punish an MP without you being able to prove it. Cabinet posts, committees, public events, etc are all awarded (or not) at the party's discretion.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I don't know. If someone is clearly offside from the party -- I mean gone full rogue and is completely freelancing and not representing the party's values -- the party should still be able to say, "this guy is not one of us" in an official capacity.
> 
> Also, even if "once in caucus, always in caucus, unless not re-elected" WAS enforced, there are still other ways that a party can punish an MP without you being able to prove it. Cabinet posts, committees, public events, etc are all awarded (or not) at the party's discretion.


I think if one is kicked out of Caucus and has to sit as an Independent, that is punishment enough (unless it is for criminal wrong doing, or indictment for criminal wrong doing ), as I said previously because ones Parliamentary resources become severely limited.

Garth Turner is an example that comes to mind.

Had he continued to be an Independent MP after that all would have been fine but he didn't. In very short order he crossed the floor to join the Liberals.



> On October 18, 2006, the Conservative Party suspended him from the Conservative caucus for his independent stance and he sat as an Independent MP until February 6, 2007, when he joined the Liberal Party of Canada.


That should not have been allowed.

Good riddance to him I say he was always a fraud financial adviser, continuing to advise people to buy Nortel until they went tits up. He was a piece chite from the beginning and the CPC was right to have gotten rid of him when they did.

Completely typical of him in his hypocrisy he had this to say:



> Turner was very critical of former Liberal cabinet minister David Emerson's floor-crossing to the Conservatives. Turner called for Emerson to resign from Parliament and try to regain his seat in a by-election, saying that "anyone who crosses the floor ultimately should go back to the people for ratification and I stick by it and hopefully in this case that will happen...."


I agreed with him then but too bad the two faced SOB didn't have the balls to do the very thing he called for when it came to Emerson. 

Turner was a real piece of chite in so many ways who was only out for himself and didn't care who he hurt along the way so long as it served his own self interests.

Another example of this happened most recently with the the NDP and Bruce Hyer.

He got turfed by Mulcair and then in relatively short order joined Ms. May in the Green Party. This as well should not have been allowed.

So to eMacMan this kind of anti-democratic crap is all too common and should be changed and is not some small insignificant/unimportant issue.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> I think if one is kicked out of Caucus and has to sit as an Independent, that is punishment enough (unless it is for criminal wrong doing, or indictment for criminal wrong doing ), as I said previously because ones Parliamentary resources become severely limited.
> 
> Garth Turner is an example that comes to mind.
> 
> Had he continued to be an Independent MP after that all would have been fine but he didn't. In very short order he crossed the floor to join the Liberals.
> 
> 
> 
> That should not have been allowed.
> 
> Good riddance to him I say he was always a fraud financial adviser, continuing to advise people to buy Nortel until they went tits up. He was a piece chite from the beginning and the CPC was right to have gotten rid of him when they did.
> 
> Completely typical of him in his hypocrisy he had this to say:
> 
> 
> 
> I agreed with him then but too bad the two faced SOB didn't have the balls to do the very thing he called for when it came to Emerson.
> 
> Turner was a real piece of chite in so many ways who was only out for himself and didn't care who he hurt along the way so long as it served his own self interests.
> 
> Another example of this happened most recently with the the NDP and Bruce Hyer.
> 
> He got turfed by Mulcair and then in relatively short order joined Ms. May in the Green Party. This as well should not have been allowed.
> 
> So to eMacMan this kind of anti-democratic crap is all too common and should be changed and is not some small insignificant/unimportant issue.


Ahh given Harpos anti-democratic history with the last three omnibus budget bills, I see no real commitment to democracy from the conmen, then again one could cite ample instances of Liberal abuse.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Ahh given Harpos anti-democratic history with the last three omnibus budget bills, I see no real commitment to democracy from the conmen, then again one could cite ample instances of Liberal abuse.


Who said anything about Harper? I am expressing MY own ideas and opinions here... maybe time to respect that and NOT drop an anti-Harper bomb when it is completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the discussion.

Try and focus for once.


----------



## Macfury

At least it didn't dovetail into FATCA--there's progress!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> At least it didn't dovetail into FATCA--there's progress!


Just wait for it...


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Who said anything about Harper? I am expressing MY own ideas and opinions here... maybe time to respect that and NOT drop an anti-Harper bomb when it is completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the discussion.
> 
> Try and focus for once.


Exactly, this has nothing whatsoever to do with what party you support, it's purely about how parliament itself should operate.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Exactly, this has nothing whatsoever to do with what party you support,* it's purely about how parliament itself should operate.*


It seems some people can't appreciate that without becoming needlessly partisan...


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Who said anything about Harper? I am expressing MY own ideas and opinions here... maybe time to respect that and NOT drop an anti-Harper bomb when it is completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the discussion.
> 
> Try and focus for once.


Not enough coffee this AM. You seemed to have missed the bit about Liberals also being guilty of abuse.

As a general rule I consider ALL politicians to be a bit below pond scum, until they prove themselves otherwise. Sadly in recent years the ratio of crap to good has increased dramatically both sides of the border.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Not enough coffee this AM. *You seemed to have missed the bit about Liberals also being guilty of abuse.*
> 
> As a general rule I consider ALL politicians to be a bit below pond scum, until they prove themselves otherwise. Sadly in recent years the ratio of crap to good has increased dramatically both sides of the border.


You still seemed to have missed that this has nothing to do with political party's but that it is about the structure of our democracy. 

For god sake's man. Pay attention!


----------



## Dr.G.

"When Canada’s banks reopen for business on July 2, they will begin formally operating as informants for the United States Internal Revenue Service — the IRS."

And so it begins .................... 

FATCA tax deal forces Canadian banks to send info to IRS - Politics - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> "When Canada’s banks reopen for business on July 2, they will begin formally operating as informants for the United States Internal Revenue Service — the IRS."
> 
> And so it begins ....................
> 
> FATCA tax deal forces Canadian banks to send info to IRS - Politics - CBC News


Yep anyone born in the USA should probably avoid opening any new bank or investment accounts. You will be asked if you were born in the US. Everyone in Canada can expect a similar questionnaire most likely with in the next year.

Come July, 2015 those the banks decide might have some vague American connection will have their private banking information passed along to the CRA and thence to the IRS. 

The Harper government voted down an amendment that would have informed account holders when their previously private financial information had been compromised in this manner, even though the IRS could care less if their intended extortion victims are forewarned.

If you want to know who else can see it, read the IRS (lack of) privacy statement at the top of the finCEN114, still referred to by most as the F(u)BAR. Even if the CRA does not share this information with the RCMP, CSIS and CSEC, the IRS can and probably will.



> PRIVACY ACT AND PAPERWORK REDUCTION ACT NOTICE
> Pursuant to the requirements of Public Law 93-579 (Privacy Act of 1974), notice is hereby given that the authority to collect information on FinCEN 114 in accordance
> with 5 USC 552a (e) is Public Law 91-508; 31 USC 5314; 5 USC 301; 31 CFR 1010.350. The principal purpose for collecting the information is to assure maintenance
> of reports where such reports or records have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax, or regulatory investigations or proceedings. The information collected may
> be provided to those officers and employees of any constituent unit of the Department of the Treasury who have a need for the records in the performance of their
> duties. The records may be referred to any other department or agency of the United States upon the request of the head of such department or agency for use in a
> criminal, tax, or regulatory investigation or proceeding. The information collected may also be provided to appropriate state, local, and foreign law enforcement and
> regulatory personnel in the performance of their official duties. *Disclosure of this information is mandatory.* *Civil and criminal penalties, including in certain
> circumstances a fine of not more than $500,000 and imprisonment of not more than five years, are provided for failure to file a report, supply information, and for filing
> a false or fraudulent report. Disclosure of the Social Security number is mandatory.* The authority to collect is 31 CFR 1010.350 (formerly 31 CFR 103.24) . The Social
> Security number will be used as a means to identify the individual who files the report. The estimated average burden associated with this collection of information is
> 20 minutes per respondent or record keeper, depending on individual circumstances. Comments regarding the accuracy of this burden estimate, and suggestions for
> reducing the burden should be directed to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, P. O. Box 39, Vienna, VA 22183, Attn: Office of Regulatory Policy.
> See help text Instructions For Definitions.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lest we forget.

On July 1, 1916, members of the Newfoundland Regiment left their trenches to attack German positions in northern France. On this day back in 1916, members of the Newfoundland Regiment left their trenches to attack German positions in northern France. It was the opening day of the Battle of the Somme, one of the deadliest days in military history. Of the 801 Newfoundlanders who went into battle that morning, only 68 were able to answer the roll call the next day, with 255 dead, 386 wounded and 91 missing.

On this July 1 we celebrate Canada Day and remember those we lost in the Battle of Beaumont Hamel.


----------



## screature

NDP parliamentary staff part with union

Ahh, family squabbles...

I have to say I agree with this:



> Unifor national president Jerry Dias said the decision to go their separate ways was "absolutely mutual."
> 
> "This will be an amicable divorce," Dias told The Canadian Press.
> 
> "Their position is they want to belong to a union that has complete, blind loyalty to the party and I understand that ... *But the facts are that one local union within Unifor is not going to dictate the politics of an organization of over 300,000 people."*


It seems that for a party that has the word ""Democratic" in their name, they don't understand its meaning or underlying principles. Why am I not surprised with angry Tom at the helm. He has made it clear on many occasions already it is his way or the highway.

Case in point:

Bruce Hyer



> On April 23, 2012, Hyer announced he would sit as an independent after being disciplined for voting against the NDP's position on the gun registry.[10] One week later, it was revealed that he wrote a letter to the NDP riding association in Thunder Bay—Superior North shortly after his announcement, offering to apologize and to reconsider his decision if the party announced that it would allow more free votes for its members.
> 
> On December 13, 2013, Hyer announced that he would join the Green Party of Canada, doubling the number of members the party has in the House of Commons


----------



## eMacMan

Wow so Eritrea's 2% tax on net income and the 1/2 page form that a 3rd grader could complete are the pinnacle of evil, while the IRS extortion racket gets Canada's active assistance. Then again this government seems to specialize in hypocrisy.

The Isaac Brock Society | Stunning hypocrisy: Canada threatens closure of Eritrean consulate over diaspora tax



> Only one week after ushering-in FATCA on Canada Day, Canada’s government is warning the Eritrean consulate to stop harassing Eritrean-Canadians or risk closure of its consulate. Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird made the announcement today in Ottawa (be sure to watch the video as well):





> Fair enough to say that this is certainly one of the most egregiously hypocritical moves the Conservative government has ever made – and there have been far too many to count over the years. I would love to hear Mr. Baird explain to Canadians how it is acceptable for the United States to impose its infinitely more invasive extraterritorial tax laws in Canada but Eritrea’s amateur-hour 2% shakedown warrants impending closure of its consulate? Could it be that Mr. Baird is in fact preparing a subsequent announcement that he will be ordering the immediate closure of the US Embassy as well? Should we give him the benefit of the doubt?


----------



## Macfury

Huge difference. The collection activity is being conducted by the consulate itself.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Huge difference. The collection activity is being conducted by the consulate itself.


Right whereas the US has conscripted the CRA to do their dirty work.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Right whereas the US has conscripted the CRA to do their dirty work.


They're not telling the Eritreans their tax is illegal... and the CRA is not collecting money on behalf of the IRS.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> They're not telling the Eritreans their tax is illegal... and the CRA is not collecting money on behalf of the IRS.


They are collecting private financial data that other wise the CRA or any other agency would require a court order to obtain, and doing it in a manner that makes "tainted" Canadians second class citizens entitled to a lower level of privacy protection than so-called "pure" Canadians.

We only have the word of the Harpolites on the CRA not collecting for the IRS. Given that their lips were moving when they made that statement, and their total collapse on the FATCA IGA, it is extremely likely that if the IRS tells Harpo to collect he will say; "Yassuh Massah". 

That said I think the IRS will simply bypass the CRA and order those financial institutions that have a large US exposure to freeze or seize accounts the IRS wants. After all that FATCA IGA gave IRS regulations precedence over Canadian banking laws so without a clear exception in the IGA the IRS now has that right.

A less radical approach would be the same tack for which Baird is criticizing Eritrea, simply refuse to renew or issue passports to non-compliant "tainted" Canadians. That would mean that most Canadian citizens born in the USA would be unable to travel south of the border.


----------



## Macfury

Those Canadians are "tainted" by their American heritage.



eMacMan said:


> They are collecting private financial data that other wise the CRA or any other agency would require a court order to obtain, and doing it in a manner that makes "tainted" Canadians second class citizens entitled to a lower level of privacy protection than so-called "pure" Canadians.
> 
> We only have the word of the Harpolites on the CRA not collecting for the IRS. Given that their lips were moving when they made that statement, and their total collapse on the FATCA IGA, it is extremely likely that if the IRS tells Harpo to collect he will say; "Yassuh Massah".
> 
> That said I think the IRS will simply bypass the CRA and order those financial institutions that have a large US exposure to freeze or seize accounts the IRS wants. After all that FATCA IGA gave IRS regulations precedence over Canadian banking laws so without a clear exception in the IGA the IRS now has that right.
> 
> A less radical approach would be the same tack for which Baird is criticizing Eritrea, simply refuse to renew or issue passports to non-compliant "tainted" Canadians. That would mean that most Canadian citizens born in the USA would be unable to travel south of the border.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Those Canadians are "tainted" by their American heritage.


BINGO!

That's a clear violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights. Section 15



> 15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, * national or ethnic origin*, colour, religion, sex, age or *mental or physical disability*.


I highlighted the mental disability as well because Americans with mental disabilities are effectively barred from renouncing or relinquishing their American citizenship.


----------



## Macfury

It's not discrimination to allow America to visit its unfair laws on Americans. It would be unfair to allow people at the American Consulate to visit your home and demand cash payments.



eMacMan said:


> BINGO!
> 
> That's a clear violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights. Section 15
> 
> 
> 
> I highlighted the mental disability as well because Americans with mental disabilities are effectively barred from renouncing or relinquishing their American citizenship.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It's not discrimination to allow America to visit its unfair laws on Americans. It would be unfair to allow people at the American Consulate to visit your home and demand cash payments.


Unless they happen to also be Canadian Citizens residing in Canada, and the Canadian Government is aiding and abetting a foreign nation in that effort. 

As Rick Mercer observed referring to Harpo and omnibus bills: "He knows it's wrong but he did it anyways."


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Unless they happen to also be Canadian Citizens residing in Canada, and the Canadian Government is aiding and abetting a foreign nation in that effort.
> 
> As Rick Mercer observed referring to Harpo and omnibus bills: "He knows it's wrong but he did it anyways."


Being Canadian in addition to American does not free you from America's unfair laws. While dual American citizenship was once something to treasure, it is now a liability.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Being Canadian in addition to American does not free you from America's unfair laws. While dual American citizenship was once something to treasure, it is now a liability.


To be clear a lot of Americans including myself have given up our US citizenship over this issue. I have no problem spending several hours a year preparing a 1040 and god forbid a 116. However when the IRS demands detailed information on my domestic bank accounts and provides bankrupting penalties should I miss an account or make an error on a form it is time to say good-bye.

I was lucky in that I was fully aware of these laws. However 90% of Can-Ams were not and face losing their life savings even though they do not owe the US a single dime in taxes. 

Most married couples maintain joint bank accounts so "pure" Canadian spouses are also affected, as the IRS says 100% of the money in a joint account belongs to the American side of the couple. This similarly impacts signing authorities for charitable and non-profit organizations, as well as corporate signing authorities.

Some former green card holders are also at risk even though immigration almost certainly considers their green cards invalid. Ditto snow birds who spend more than 120 days south of the border.

Finally Congress never gave the IRS the authority to negotiate the IGAs. They have not been, nor are they likely to be ratified by the US Senate. In short Canada signed onto a one way treaty with the IRS and what's worse gave the IRS the unilateral ability to alter the terms of that treaty at will. 

The ultimate insult to those Canadians thrown under the omnibus was having that treaty take effect on Canada Day. 

In short the IRS does not have the right to (re-)write Canadian laws and it was up to the PM to tell them so.

EDIT: There is another group I keep forgetting. For various reasons many seniors at some point have one of their kids take over their finances. Either making them joint account holders or giving them Power of Attorney. If the son or daughter managing those finances happens to reside stateside those seniors could lose their life savings just when they may need that money the most. These accounts may be more at risk than most existing accounts as they will show a US address for the individual who is managing the account. Again the IRS is only concerned that a US person has signing authority, no thought given to the individual to whom the money really belongs.


----------



## chas_m

As a permanent resident of Canada and a US citizen (at least for now), I'm also strongly opposed to this "treaty" because it is fundamentally illegal. I have no doubt that the Supreme Court will overturn it given the opportunity, but I have to say that regardless of whatever political party you support, this is exactly why we should never allow >39 percent of the vote to give any government an unbreakable majority. They abuse their power, in this case literally selling out Canadian citizens and allowing a US government agency access to your financial records.


----------



## Macfury

I find it objectionable but not illegal. But are you saying that if the Liberals form the next government with a 39% majority, they should not have the power to overturn FATCA?


----------



## eMacMan

chas_m said:


> As a permanent resident of Canada and a US citizen (at least for now), I'm also strongly opposed to this "treaty" because it is fundamentally illegal. I have no doubt that the Supreme Court will overturn it given the opportunity, but I have to say that regardless of whatever political party you support, this is exactly why we should never allow >39 percent of the vote to give any government an unbreakable majority. They abuse their power, in this case literally selling out Canadian citizens and allowing a US government agency access to your financial records.


On the topic please check the PM I sent you a while back.


----------



## heavyall

chas_m said:


> we should never allow >39 percent of the vote to give any government an unbreakable majority.


Thankfully we have smarter people than you in charge. We have a significantly more democratic system in place here than in the US, one that is independently monitored, allows for multiple parties, minority governments, and even coalitions. 

If the party you disagree with has 39% and wins, that means there is even less support for the one you do support. That is why you lost, and that is why the one who won gets to govern the country.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Thankfully we have smarter people than you in charge. We have a significantly more democratic system in place here than in the US, one that is independently monitored, allows for multiple parties, minority governments, and even coalitions.
> 
> If the party you disagree with has 39% and wins, that means there is even less support for the one you do support. That is why you lost, and that is why the one who won gets to govern the country.


They only **** and moan about that when the party in power is not far left enough to suit them.


----------



## eMacMan

A good interview on some of the FATCA fallout. Obviously if your only concern is protecting Banksters and getting in bed with the IRS you needn't bother to listen.

CBC Radio Ottawa, "All In A Day" Interview, July 4, 2014 - YouTube


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Rps

MacFury, and others, just in case you don't read the National Post, they have a wonderful article, which is completely unrelated to this current debate, but well worth the read as it most clearly captures the media's view of our government. Look for Ontario's Sharks Kill Them Before They Get Us ....


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> MacFury, and others, just in case you don't read the National Post, they have a wonderful article, which is completely unrelated to this current debate, but well worth the read as it most clearly captures the media's view of our government. Look for Ontario's Sharks Kill Them Before They Get Us ....


Link?


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Link?


National Post editorial board: Kill Ontario’s sharks — before they kill us | National Post


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> National Post editorial board: Kill Ontario’s sharks â€” before they kill us | National Post


What a f**k up, especially for the new Ontario Gov...

An indie repertory house in the GTA could do well by running the original Jaws me thinks.

A very good movie actually IMO.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> What a f**k up, especially for the new Ontario Gov...
> 
> An indie repertory house in the GTA could do well by running the original Jaws me thinks.
> 
> A very good movie actually IMO.


Screech, I think the National Post is pulling our appendage here....


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screech, I think the National Post is pulling our appendage here....


Well that makes sense, even though it was highly irresponsible.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


That one's actually pretty good.


----------



## eMacMan

Loved the quick clip during yesterdays Ottawa football game. Fan walks right in front of the PM, totally ignores him, then stops to shake Russ Jackson's hand.


----------



## Macfury

It might have been funny if the PM had been hoping for a handshake. However, nothing happens--Harper is just waiting for the old gentleman to pass.



eMacMan said:


> Loved the quick clip during yesterdays Ottawa football game. Fan walks right in front of the PM, totally ignores him, then stops to shake Russ Jackson's hand.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> It might have been funny if the PM had been hoping for a handshake. However, nothing happens--Harper is just waiting for the old gentleman to pass.


Yep, far too much read into that exchange.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep, far too much read into that exchange.


Oh c'mon SINC it was obvious!

The old fella recognized both the PM and Russ Jackson, he had no time for the PM as all he wanted to do was meet Russ Jackson and shake his hand...


I probably would have done the same or similar.


Russ Jackson is a living legend that I have admired for 30+ years so I would far rather shake his hand that any PM over the last 30+ years...

Our friend doesn't seem to appreciate that people have free will and intentions that are their own. He has to conflate the incident into a political statement that supports his point of view. 

Big surprise that.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Oh c'mon SINC it was obvious!
> 
> The old fella recognized both the PM and Russ Jackson, he had no time for the PM as all he wanted to do was meet Russ Jackson and shake his hand...
> 
> 
> I probably would have done the same or similar.
> 
> 
> Russ Jackson is a living legend that I have admired for 30+ years so I would far rather shake his hand that any PM over the last 30+ years...
> 
> Our friend doesn't seem to appreciate that people have free will and intentions that are their own. He has to conflate the incident into a political statement that supports his point of view.
> 
> Big surprise that.


Uhh you made it a political statement. I will agree that I would much rather meet Russ Jackson than any PM or US president in the past 3 decades. That's a reflection on the (lack of) quality of most politicians regardless of whether they be white with black stripes or the other way around.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Oh c'mon SINC it was obvious!
> 
> The old fella recognized both the PM and Russ Jackson, he had no time for the PM as all he wanted to do was meet Russ Jackson and shake his hand...
> 
> 
> I probably would have done the same or similar.
> 
> 
> Russ Jackson is a living legend that I have admired for 30+ years so I would far rather shake his hand that any PM over the last 30+ years...
> 
> Our friend doesn't seem to appreciate that people have free will and intentions that are their own. He has to conflate the incident into a political statement that supports his point of view.
> 
> Big surprise that.


What I was trying to imply is that anyone at a game would want to meet Jackson rather than Harper, or whoever was PM at the time. As a fan that should be obvious. The man did not go to the game to meet a politician.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> What I was trying to imply is that anyone at a game would want to meet Jackson rather than Harper, or whoever was PM at the time. As a fan that should be obvious. The man did not go to the game to meet a politician.


Considering they were not in the cheap seats, the guy probably knew Jackson.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Considering they were not in the cheap seats, the guy probably knew Jackson.


Now that is just cruel...


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> What I was trying to imply is that anyone at a game would want to meet Jackson rather than Harper, or whoever was PM at the time. As a fan that should be obvious. The man did not go to the game to meet a politician.


I agree, but that is what I was trying to say in so many words.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Uhh you made it a political statement. *I will agree that I would much rather meet Russ Jackson than any PM or US president in the past 3 decades. That's a reflection on the (lack of) quality of most politicians regardless of whether they be white with black stripes or the other way around.


You are a liar.

Do you even read what you post?

You are delusional. 

Seriously.

Seek help.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


That cartoon is pretty obtuse. But It seems the comparison is that of Canadian Senators (Duffy in particular) to Nazi's seeking escape from their war crimes to South America.

Just a bit of a stretch to say the least.

The only thing worse than partisan ill-researched and hyperbolic columns are partisan ill-researched and hyperbolic cartoons.

Just to be clear this is only a comment on the cartoonist and not the person who posted it... but on the other hand, by posting it, it does to speak to certain proclivities of the poster.

Most notably an acceptance of hyperbole as comic in nature when applied to those they disagree with while rejecting it in toto when hyperbole is applied to those that they support.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> That cartoon is pretty obtuse. But It seems the comparison is that of Canadian Senators (Duffy in particular) to Nazi's seeking escape from their war crimes to South America.
> 
> Just a bit of a stretch to say the least.
> 
> The only thing worse than partisan ill-researched and hyperbolic columns are partisan ill-researched and hyperbolic cartoons.
> 
> Just to be clear this is only a comment on the cartoonist and not the person who posted it... but on the other hand, by posting it, it does to speak to certain proclivities of the poster.
> 
> Most notably an acceptance of hyperbole as comic in nature when applied to those they disagree with while rejecting it in toto when hyperbole is applied to those that they support.


Duffy is alleged to have fathered a child in south America, and that's the intended context. I do agree that the other implication is an unfortunate oversight on the cartoonists part. Someone should have caught that and pulled it before it was published.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> That cartoon is pretty obtuse. But It seems the comparison is that of Canadian Senators (Duffy in particular) to Nazi's seeking escape from their war crimes to South America.


Sorry - I thought this was pretty common knowledge for the news hounds in here....

From Peru, with love — the Mike Duffy story | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

I honestly don't get the gag. The story of Duffy's "love child" is fairly common knowledge, but what exactly is happening in the panel? Duffy is in Peru talking to a child who represents his alleged adult daughter? And why is he asking if they have senators there?


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Duffy is alleged to have fathered a child in south America, and that's the intended context. I do agree that the other implication is an unfortunate oversight on the cartoonists part. Someone should have caught that and pulled it before it was published.





CubaMark said:


> Sorry - I thought this was pretty common knowledge for the news hounds in here....
> 
> From Peru, with love — the Mike Duffy story | Toronto Star





Macfury said:


> I honestly don't get the gag. The story of Duffy's "love child" is fairly common knowledge, but what exactly is happening in the panel? Duffy is in Peru talking to a child who represents his alleged adult daughter? And why is he asking if they have senators there?


Wow!!

That is really obtuse... I have been on holiday for too long I guess... but then maybe again maybe not long enough if this kind of chite is still in the news.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You are a liar.
> 
> Do you even read what you post?
> 
> You are delusional.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> Seek help.


My initial statement was that I loved the clip, hardly a political statement as my reaction would have been the same were it Trudeau, Martin, Mulrooney or Chretien.

So it appears that lacking any moral fibre at all, you have lowered the bar to libelous name calling. Required behavior for the true blue converts, but sadly nothing you should be proud of.

EDIT: I will apologize for comparing PMs, Presidents and politicians in general, to skunks. While the aura is quite similar, skunks eat rats and other vermin. Presidents and PMs are much more likely to give the rats cabinet postings. 

So obviously I do owe all the skunks on the planet my sincere apology and hereby extend said apology.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> My initial statement was that I loved the clip, hardly a political statement as my reaction would have been the same were it Trudeau, Martin, Mulrooney or Chretien.
> 
> So it appears that lacking any moral fibre at all, you have lowered the bar to libelous name calling. Required behavior for the true blue converts, but sadly nothing you should be proud of.
> 
> EDIT: I will apologize for comparing PMs, Presidents and politicians in general, to skunks. While the aura is quite similar, skunks eat rats and other vermin. Presidents and PMs are much more likely to give the rats cabinet postings.
> 
> So obviously I do owe all the skunks on the planet my sincere apology and hereby extend said apology.


Keep piling on the BS... you posted it in the Canadian* Political *Thread for Christ's sake. YOU made it political intentionally. To try deny it is simply pathetic.

Like I said you are a liar...

But then again we all are, but not everyone demonstrates it in such a public and extremely obvious manner.


----------



## FeXL

An old line about chickens & roosts comes to mind...

Ontario’s jet fuel tax hike would send another 400,000 air travellers across the border



> Ontario’s government under Kathleen Wynne is planning a massive tax increase on jet fuel, which is likely to set airfares soaring. But consumers won’t be the only ones hurt. Airlines and Canadian airports are all bracing for a hit.
> 
> ...
> 
> The country’s airlines will not of course swallow the tax hike whole: Much of the Wynne surcharge will be passed on to Canadian consumers in the form of higher ticket prices. That is certain to send even more Canadian travelers scrambling to U.S. border cities, where fares cost an average $428 less per round trip ticket.
> 
> Already, roughly five million Canadians — the equivalent of the total annual load at the Ottawa International Airport — cross the border to U.S. airports to access cheaper U.S. fares.


Also, the old saw about shooting oneself in one's foot...


----------



## FeXL

I've posted a couple of links about questionable activity inside the CSA, with little or no response. Somewhat surprised by that. Here's another.

Creative Accounting



> In October of 2013 we reported that the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) was spending more than $65,000 per day on travel. This year the figure is $70,616, per day, just on travel expenses.
> 
> That seems awfully high. Recall that the CSA is mandated to “coordinate” standardization, their mandate is secretarial. So how does such a small mandate make for such a massive travel budget?


----------



## Macfury

The CSA is a not-for-profit, although it's clearly in bed with the government. That said, it requires a thorough housecleaning.


----------



## FeXL

Although this is international politics, rather than Canadian, I'd have no problems with this being implemented in Canada.

Australian PM Tony Abbott introduces tougher 'work for the dole' scheme

While 40 job applications/month may be a bit over the top (maybe cut that in half), I like the community service aspect.

Now, what can we do about all those languishing in our jails...


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> Although this is international politics, rather than Canadian, I'd have no problems with this being implemented in Canada.
> 
> Australian PM Tony Abbott introduces tougher 'work for the dole' scheme
> 
> While 40 job applications/month may be a bit over the top (maybe cut that in half), I like the community service aspect.
> 
> Now, what can we do about all those languishing in our jails...


We have to do SOMEthing to discourage people from just sitting on welfare if they actually could be working. My wife works in social services for the province here, and it drives her nuts how many "clients" get away with completely disregarding any work expectations. Under the previous PCs, able bodied recipients were expected to at least prove they were trying to look for work, and they actually investigated cases where people were suspected of double dipping. Under the NDP, all of that was cancelled, the minister in charge declared that there was no such thing as welfare fraud, and the welfare rolls more than doubled in no time.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> We have to do SOMEthing to discourage people from just sitting on welfare if they actually could be working. My wife works in social services for the province here, and it drives her nuts how many "clients" get away with completely disregarding any work expectations. Under the previous PCs, able bodied recipients were expected to at least prove they were trying to look for work, and they actually investigated cases where people were suspected of double dipping. Under the NDP, all of that was cancelled, the minister in charge declared that there was no such thing as welfare fraud, and the welfare rolls more than doubled in no time.


Isn't that the Jack Layton way?


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> We have to do SOMEthing to discourage people from just sitting on welfare if they actually could be working.


Agreed.



heavyall said:


> Under the NDP, all of that was cancelled, the minister in charge declared that there was no such thing as welfare fraud, and the welfare rolls more than doubled in no time.


Typical delusional politicians...


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of delusional politicians. More dirt on Redford.

Former premier Alison Redford used fake passengers to keep government planes to herself: Auditor 



> Former premier Alison Redford's staff listed "false passengers" on government flights in order to block others from flying with her, shows a report from Alberta's Auditor General.
> 
> In an internal government report obtained by CBC News, Auditor General Merwan Saher found that Redford's staff entered fake passengers into the government's online booking system and then erased the passengers before printing a final flight manifest.


Her reply?



> "It would not be true to suggest that I flew on the government plane alone. Despite the allegations raised today, as far as I am concerned there was never any directive preventing others from flying on government aircraft when I was a passenger. In fact, on most occasions that I can recall, when I was on government flights, I travelled with other elected officials, public servants and staff."


Watch the pea.

"It would not be true to suggest that I flew on the government plane alone." Of course not. The pilot & co-pilot would have been on board, too. Along with your daughter...

"Despite the allegations raised today, as far as I am concerned there was never any directive preventing others from flying on government aircraft when I was a passenger." Of course not. No one spoke of it so you have plausible deniability.

"In fact, on most occasions that I can recall,..." Of course. That old slipping memory thing. Why is it that all politicians seem to contract Alzheimer's when it comes to culpability?

She needs to resign as MLA immediately & move to California, land of fruits & nuts, permanently.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The CSA is a not-for-profit, *although it's clearly in bed with the government*. That said, it requires a thorough housecleaning.


What do you mean by this statement?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What do you mean by this statement?


The government, through a Crown Corporation, The Standards Council of Canada provides CSA with the the accreditation required to create standards. The government often adopts CSA standards into its legislation. In essence it has transformed from an engineering body into an organization dependent on government and a _de facto_ regulator.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The government, through a Crown Corporation, The Standards Council of Canada provides CSA with the the accreditation required to create standards. The government often adopts CSA standards into its legislation. *In essence it has transformed from an engineering body into an organization dependent on government and a de facto regulator.*


Not really, it is the other way around IMO.

CSA provides data to the government to help make policy, they are simply accredited by The Standards Council of Canada as being a credible source of information. 

The Gov does not tell CSA what data to produce. The CSA produces their own data and the Gov listens or their don't. 

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

And how do you see that as a bad thing as a libertarian?

I would have thought that more private sector influence on government policy was a good thing.



> The CSA is a not-for-profit, *although it's clearly in bed with the government.*


Sorry if I misunderstood where you are coming from, but based on what you posted I am a little unclear.


----------



## Macfury

The government tells various industries that they must post certain information and purchase certain publications from the CSA--the CSA in turn collects royalties from the people forced to post or purchase CSA information. It also charges membership fees. IMO the CSA has no business creating standards from which it might profit or to charge membership fees. However, the government sees nothing wrong with this. It's an ugly marriage between government and an "independent regulator" that acts in its own self interest.





screature said:


> Not really, it is the other way around IMO.
> 
> CSA provides data to the government to help make policy, they are simply accredited by The Standards Council of Canada as being a credible source of information.
> 
> The Gov does not tell CSA what data to produce. The CSA produces their own data and the Gov listens or their don't.
> 
> Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
> 
> And how do you see that as a bad thing as a libertarian?
> 
> I would have thought that more private sector influence on government policy was a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if I misunderstood where you are coming from, but based on what you posted I am a little unclear.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *The government tells various industries that they must post certain information and purchase certain publications from the CSA--the CSA in turn collects royalties from the people forced to post or purchase CSA information. It also charges membership fees. IMO the CSA has no business creating standards from which it might profit or to charge membership fees. However, the government sees nothing wrong with this. It's an ugly marriage between government and an "independent regulator" that acts in its own self interest.*


Link? That is not the way I understand the process.

I am not doubting what you say so much as that it is not my understanding/interpretation and just am seeking clarification, i.e. what exactly does the The Standards Council of Canada say. 

I have not seen what you attribute to the The Standards Council of Canada as being the regulations.


----------



## Macfury

The Standards Council provides the CSA with certification to be a standards body. i see the whole thing as rather circular. If The Standards Council withdrew its certification, the CSA's business model would collapse, because it would lose its membership and the right to force others to buy their materials under a monopoly model.



screature said:


> Link? That is not the way I understand the process.
> 
> I am not doubting what you say so much as that it is not my understanding/interpretation and just am seeking clarification, i.e. what exactly does the The Standards Council of Canada say.
> 
> I have not seen what you attribute to the The Standards Council of Canada as being the regulations.


----------



## Macfury

RestoreCSA | Frequently Asked Questions



> The CSA compiled various provincial amendments to Canada’s electrical laws. The CSA then lobbied governments to pass these new regulations into law. On the basis of having lobbied government for changes to law, CSA believes that they therefore have ownership of the legal statues which contain those changes.


RestoreCSA | Frequently Asked Questions



> Canada’s OH&S laws do indeed mandate the posting of safety information, and CSA is demanding royalties for the posting of that information. Because contractors are obligated to post, and because CSA thinks it owns the safety information being posted and can therefore charge for each posting, the CSA has been afforded a functional, de-facto power of taxation. A private company with taxation powers is plainly unacceptable.


----------



## FeXL

The more I read about the CSA the more it becomes clear that they are nothing more than a self-serving lot of free-loaders getting rich off the taxpayers dime with the blessing of the federal government.


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> The more I read about the CSA the more it becomes clear that they are nothing more than a self-serving lot of free-loaders getting rich off the taxpayers dime with the blessing of the federal government.


If you deal with anything that required safety equipment that is subject to certification, that becomes painfully obvious. They charge the mfr a LOT for things to be certified, to the point that many mfrs have products that are much safer than what is approved, yet they are officially deemed unsafe and potentially even illegal. 

Not only that, but the approval process is such that the money is the primary factor, not the actual safety of the product. Things that are outright dangerous get approved on the regular.

I see this a lot when it comes to goalie gear for hockey. In almost every case, the absolute safest helmet/mask you can possibly buy is not approved, while the one with full certification is a widowmaker.


----------



## Macfury

Alison Redford, former Alberta premier, resigns as MLA - Edmonton - CBC News

Coward!


----------



## SINC

Good riddance, I say!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Alison Redford, former Alberta premier, resigns as MLA - Edmonton - CBC News
> 
> Coward!


I think she knew what was coming in the AG report released today and she thought she would get ahead the curve.

Time will tell if any police investigation is launched or charges are laid.


----------



## SINC

Premier Hancock today asked the RCMP to investigate Redford. Fraud is the possible charge.



> In a statement released Thursday, Hancock said the governing party will repay the costs of the partisan flights.
> 
> “The Progressive Conservative Party of Alberta has stepped forward to reimburse government for the cost of flights which the Auditor General has determined to have been primarily for party purposes,” he said.
> 
> The government has accepted all six recommendations in the report.
> 
> “While we have measures in place to prevent the inappropriate use of public resources, the findings of this report make it clear that we can and must do better,” Hancock said.
> 
> Justice Minister Jonathan Denis confirmed in a statement that the report has been forwarded to the RCMP and that prosecutors from Ontario will be assigned to the investigation to assure independence.


Alison Redford's staff felt 'trapped,' auditor general says about aircraft use


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Premier Hancock today asked the RCMP to investigate Redford. Fraud is the possible charge.
> 
> Alison Redford's *staff felt 'trapped,*' auditor general says about aircraft use


Very telling...



> ...He said staff felt “trapped in this.”
> 
> “After all, the premier is the premier.”...


Yep you can be sure the rats will be the first to leave a sinking ship, but they sure enjoyed the stay as long as they could.

If there is to be an investigation, aside from Redford, the authorities should first look into the behaviour of those who are now saying they were "trapped".

I suspect that such an investigation would reveal that those that say they were "trapped" were completely complicit and knew exactly what was going on, as they would have been the ones sending the forms and documents to the Legislature Finance Department... i.e. they are complicit because there is no reason why they couldn't/shouldn't have known what was going on... unless they are completely daft and don't have clue, or at least have a lawyer who is daft and doesn't have clue.

They were simply trying to keep their jobs, i.e. money, with no regard for proper conduct, thus once again they were/are complicit if Redford is charged with wrong doing.

Just call it a hunch.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed--if you were "trapped" because you would have been fired for doing the right thing, then you were not actually trapped.


----------



## eMacMan

*And so it begins*

The very expensive process of reminding the Harper Government, that Canada has a Charter of Rights and a Constitution is now officially underway, although fund raising started a couple of months ago and will continue for quite some time. You can donate here: ADCS

This is the article which I am told made the front page of the National Post. Good on them for finally taking notice. Also a much deserved salute to two very brave women who are literally risking everything they have.

Canadian government faces constitutional challenge over FATCA deal | Financial Post



> Two women are suing the Canadian government over a controversial deal in which Canada has agreed to share the tax information of U.S. persons resident in Canada with the IRS.
> 
> 
> Gwen Deegan, a graphic designer from Toronto, and Ginny Hillis, a retired lawyer from Windsor, filed a statement of claim in the Federal Court of Canada that accuses the Canadian government of overstepping its constitutional powers by agreeing to comply with a new U.S. law called the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
> 
> 
> Under the Canada-U.S. agreement, which was reached in February and which took effect on July 1, the Canada Revenue Agency is to provide tax information to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service about the estimated one million Americans and dual U.S.-Canadian citizens who reside in Canada. Canadian financial institutions are required to search their records for accounts held by clients who meet the definition of “U.S. person” under the law, then supply this information to the CRA so it can pass it to the IRS.It’s literally a betrayal and I feel we can’t just sit idly by​The women allege the deal violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms because it exposes them to potential U.S. criminal penalties without a hearing, it allows their financial information to be seized without a warrant, and because it discriminates between those defined as “U.S. persons” and everyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Dawes for National PostGinny Hillis sits at her computer in her home in Windsor, Ontario, Tuesday, August 12, 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> “This is an infringement on Canadians of U.S. origin by our Canadian government. It’s literally a betrayal and I feel we can’t just sit idly by and let it happen,” Ms. Deegan said in an interview.
> The women are represented by Vancouver law firm Farris, Vaughan, Wills & Murphy LLP and Joe Arvay, one of Canada’s top constitutional lawyers. Mr. Arvay’s previous cases have included civil rights challenges in many areas, among them assisted suicide and gay marriage.
> U.S. tax law says that all “U.S. persons” are liable for U.S. tax, regardless of where they live in the world. FATCA compels financial institutions from outside the U.S. to collect the financial information of those deemed to be U.S. persons and submit it to U.S. authorities. The law penalizes banks who fail to supply the information.
> 
> 
> In addition to the alleged Charter violations, Ms. Deegan and Ms. Hillis claim the Canada-U.S. deal violates the division of federal and provincial powers because the Constitution Act, 1867, states that provinces have exclusive control over matters involving privacy and property rights.
> Ms. Deegan, who was born in Washington State in 1962 to a Canadian and a U.S. citizen, moved to Canada in 1967. She has neither worked nor resided in the U.S. since she was five years old and she has never had a U.S. passport.
> 
> 
> “I’ve been a Canadian all my life. And for them to say that now, all of a sudden, they’re just going to hand me over to a foreign government to let them plunder my retirement savings is absurd. And I refuse to let them do this without a fight,” Ms. Deegan said. “All I can do is fight the Canadian government and what they’ve done to capitulate to the United States and this absolutely absurd law.”
> 
> 
> Ms. Hillis was born in the U.S. in 1946 to two Canadian citizens. She moved to Canada with her family in 1951. She hasn’t lived in the U.S. since and doesn’t have a U.S. passport.
> “I felt very strongly that I needed to be involved on behalf of the possible one million others in Canada in my situation,” Ms. Hillis told the _National Post_.
> 
> 
> In addition to her specific personal circumstances, the issues of sovereignty, privacy, and search and seizure raised in the legal claim “were of too much importance for me to take a passive role,” she said.


----------



## eMacMan

Allison Christians has an excellent summation of the recently launched suit.

Her blog is here: Tax, Society & Culture

You can contribute here: ADCS



> * Filed Today: Lawsuit challenging constitutionality of FATCA in Canada *
> 
> 
> Noted Canadian constitutional lawyer Joseph Arvay filed suit today to challenge the constitutionality of Canada's implementation of FATCA. The statement of the claim is laid against the Attorney General of Canada in the Federal Court of Canada. It seeks a declaration by the Court that the relevant parts of recently enacted Bill C-31, referred to as the "Impugned Provisions," are beyondParliament's authority and of no force and effect under the Constitution. The claim makes four claims about Canada's attempt to implement FATCA:
> 
> (1) it violates the Constitution by creating federal power over a provincial domain;
> (2) it violates s. 7 of the Charter, guaranteeing individual rights to life, liberty & property;
> (3) it violates s. 8 of the Charter, preventing unreasonable search & seizure; and
> (4) it violates s. 15 of the Charter, prohibiting discrimination based on national origin etc.
> 
> The complaint concludes that none of these infringements can be justified by section 1 of the Charter, which provides for only "such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."
> 
> The lawsuit is the product of efforts by a small, grassroots group formed for this purpose, calling themselves the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty. They have issued a press release, here. The two named plaintiffs are taking a major risk in being exposed as "non-compliant US Persons" in this lawsuit. On the other hand the IRS may not wish to get in the middle of this fight and prove the plaintiff's case, which is succinctly stated here.
> 
> I look forward to following the case, which I expect to wind its way toward the Supreme Court. As I've said many times, there are massive problems with FATCA that have nothing to do with tax evasion and everything to do with the basic injustice that is citizenship taxation and all global efforts to enforce it for the US. The US Congress is reluctant to act on this antiquated and unjust regime and the IRS must plow ahead, as I explained recently. *But that certainly does not mean that other countries must do the job of the IRS, most especially when doing so is inconsistent with their own laws. *
> Posted by  Allison Christians


----------



## screature

*And so it begins*



eMacMan said:


> The very expensive process of reminding the Harper Government, that Canada has a Charter of Rights and a Constitution is now officially underway, although fund raising started a couple of months ago and will continue for quite some time. You can donate here: ADCS
> 
> This is the article which I am told made the front page of the National Post. Good on them for finally taking notice. Also a much deserved salute to two very brave women who are literally risking everything they have.
> 
> Canadian government faces constitutional challenge over FATCA deal | Financial Post


Just because they filed a claim does not mean they are right or will be successful with their claim, they may have a case or they may not, time will tell. 

But what are *you* doing to defend your "rights" other than to continually harp on the matter here which is absolutely of zero value to your cause.

You may say, "I have contributed to their fund raising". 

But in the end that is as lazy as it gets.

Kind of like giving someone cash for Christmas. It maybe appreciated at some level but displays absolutely no thought or effort on the part of the gift giver.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Queenie & her entourage...

5 startling things from Alberta AG's report on Alison Redford



> 1) Use of government aircraft
> 2) Flying family members
> 3) "Block booking"
> 4) The 11th floor "premier's suite"
> 5) Trip to India/Switzerland cost $450K, not $131K



Redford's lonely planet: a look at the job of the former premier's travel scout



> Alison Redford travelled the globe when she was Alberta's premier and so did her travel scout, forwarding photos of hotels and suites, sussing out suitable patios and restaurants and at least once advising on public toilets.
> 
> Michelle Tetreault went to such locales as China, India, Switzerland, London and Washington in the 20 months she held the position that International Relations Minister Cal Dallas said didn't exist before Redford came to power.
> 
> ...
> 
> Tetreault got the job shortly after Redford and the Progressive Conservatives won the 2012 election. A provincial directory lists her salary as $127,827 the following year.


Nice work, if you can get it. I guess I just don't kiss nearly enough ass to qualify for a job like that.

With her stepping down as premier & now resigning, the only things that p!sses me off is that I'll be paying for her pension with my tax dollars...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Where's all the good stuff the CONS are doing lately?*

Hi Guys! Just checked in to see a noticeable absence of all the good stuff Canada's new govt. has been up to. Canada can't wait for 2015. Bring it on.

Lest we forget..... a pic of Harper and yet another convicted criminal. Ah the good old days.


----------



## Macfury

Guess not much has been going on if you're recycling all your old news aggregator posts.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hi Guys! Just checked in to see a noticeable absence of all the good stuff Canada's new govt. has been up to. Canada can't wait for 2015. Bring it on.
> 
> Lest we forget..... a pic of Harper and yet another convicted criminal. Ah the good old days.


Yep you are right, Stephen Harper is responsible for the behaviour of everyone he has ever met.










Get a life already skippy/stink/jimbo.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Further on Queenie & her entourage...
> 
> 5 startling things from Alberta AG's report on Alison Redford
> 
> 
> Redford's lonely planet: a look at the job of the former premier's travel scout
> 
> Nice work, if you can get it. I guess I just don't kiss nearly enough ass to qualify for a job like that.
> 
> With her stepping down as premier & now resigning, the only things that p!sses me off is that I'll be paying for her pension with my tax dollars...


Yep she clearly felt that she was entitled to her entitlements...

I wonder how it will be any different with the "wonder kid", the heir apparent, if he ever gets to be PM (god forbid).

I swear to god if JT becomes the next PM this country will go to hell in a handcart and quite swiftly.

His recent "balancing act" with the infant of *other people*, just goes to show how little judgment he has.

He is a clown and displays it all the time just like his father in that regard, in what he says and does...









What a buffoon! 

It astonishes me that the Liberals under him are leading the polls.

Stupid is as stupid does...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Yep you are right, Stephen Harper is responsible for the behaviour of everyone he has ever met.


That's a good one too.

I like this one better though:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Leader of "Canada's New Government™" leading US poll*

Quite the honour. Named after former US VP Richard Cheney. 

United States Department of Fear: American's Dick Awards: Nominees


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

^^^^^The funny thing is the guy who's all hat is Harper.


----------



## FeXL

Seriously? Jug Ears has been waffling over this for months now (& still hasn't managed to call them Islamic terrorists) & the only thing you can find to be critical of is Harper?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


Well... would you rather be it otherwise?

If so, what is your proposal?

BTW...

The Franklin discovery was a big deal in terms of history and many historians and even non-historians have said so, Peter Mansbridge among them. I was shockingly surprised, but in a good way for once. 

One of the two ships have been found after 170 years of looking.

As an academic I would have thought you would be appreciative of that.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Time to toss these reprobates - Call the election now cowards - 

Sun News : MPs BBQ circuit bill tops $1.4 billion


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Rob Ford's addict sister photo*

Poor poor child.


----------



## Macfury

Why would you mock someone who is not a political figure as a drug addict in the Canadian political thread??


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Time to toss these reprobates - Call the election now cowards -


Yes. By all means, call an election. Immediately.

'Cause this is what Harper will be running against...

Trudeau inherited dad's arrogance, not brains 



> The Media Party certainly believes Trudeau can and should be the next prime minister. *But instead of reporting on him with vigour, they're doing the opposite - they're covering for him, glossing over goofy remarks he makes, outright ignoring his gaffes, and spinning for him when they can't be ignored.*


M'bold.

What is the article talking about? This:



> "We have to realize that the way of thinking that got us to this place no longer holds. We have to rethink elements as basic as space and time, to go all science fictiony on you in this sense."
> 
> Pardon?
> 
> Or this instant classic: "if you were to talk to a caveman millennia upon millennia upon millennia ago. it's not programmed into our gut thinking that we do have to think broader. Except this, right here, is a generation so globally aware that you get that."


Positively. F'ing. Brilliant.

More:



> Trudeau blamed the Boston bombings on terrorists who might have felt "excluded" and said it was our responsibility to end the "tensions."
> 
> He joked that Vladimir Putin would invade Ukraine, because he was upset about how Russia's team did in Olympic hockey.
> 
> He said Communist China was his favourite foreign country, specifically praising their "basic dictatorship" for its ability to make quick decisions, without all that time-wasting democracy stuff.


The next leader of Canada? <snort> Bring it.

'Nuf said...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The Dauphin ready to lead The Restoration -

Justin Trudeau on his family's past and his political future | The Sunday Edition with Michael Enright | CBC Radio

Regardless, PM Hairpiece is goin' down!


----------



## Macfury

Good photo of the Liberal hood ornament.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Dauphin ready to lead The Restoration -
> 
> Justin Trudeau on his family's past and his political future | The Sunday Edition with Michael Enright | CBC Radio


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Good photo of the Liberal hood ornament.



LOL. Getting used to it eh.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> One of the two ships have been found after 170 years of looking.
> 
> As an academic I would have thought you would be appreciative of that.


I have zero problem with the search - quite excited at the discovery, actually. I have a bit of a fascination with underwater archaeology, too!

My only complaint is that Harper has such an interest in this very particular bit of Arctic history, which speaks to his apparent desire to stir the nationalist flag for decidedly political purposes. while simultaneously helming the government that has drastically cut arctic science research funding.


----------



## Macfury

Why complain about it? They found the freakin' ship! You "progressives" are always looking for the dark lining on a silver cloud... perpetually unhappy.



CubaMark said:


> I have zero problem with the search - quite excited at the discovery, actually. I have a bit of a fascination with underwater archaeology, too!
> 
> My only complaint is that Harper has such an interest in this very particular bit of Arctic history, which speaks to his apparent desire to stir the nationalist flag for decidedly political purposes. while simultaneously helming the government that has drastically cut arctic science research funding.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I have zero problem with the search - quite excited at the discovery, actually. I have a bit of a fascination with underwater archaeology, too!
> 
> My only complaint is that *Harper has such an interest in this very particular bit of Arctic history, which speaks to his apparent desire to stir the nationalist flag for decidedly political purposes.* while simultaneously helming the government that *has drastically cut arctic science research funding.*


What exactly would those "political" purposes be and also just to add what non-political purposes would you expect from a politician? it isn't like finding the Franklin ships is a big vote getter.

Would you rather some non-Canadian found it/them first?

What "drastic" cuts are you referring to?

This government has cut government bloat across the board in order to eliminate the deficit, which they have done.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wonderful. They found the ship. Not unlike the 1812 BS PM hair piece orchestrated. If he lasts to 2017 wait for the Vimy BS. Call an election.


----------



## Macfury

Stephen Harper is exceptionally good at leveraging these events. But why would you wish him to call an election today? He isn't yet finished transforming the country.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wonderful. They found the ship. Not unlike the 1812 BS PM hair piece orchestrated. If he lasts to 2017 wait for the Vimy BS. Call an election.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada can't account for $3.1B in anti-terror funding, AG finds*



> The federal government needs to do better at tracking and evaluating some of its program spending to ensure taxpayer dollars are being well-spent, Auditor General Michael Ferguson found in his spring report released today, and one of the most striking examples is that it can't account for $3.1 billion in anti-terrorism funding.
> 
> The lack of information on spending and on results achieved for money spent is a common theme throughout Ferguson's report, which includes 11 chapters in total.
> 
> In his audit of the Public Security and Anti-Terrorism (PSAT) Initiative, Ferguson suggested there should have been a government-wide review of spending by 35 departments and of the results for the program that was funded between 2001 and 2009.
> 
> He found that departments reported spending $9.8 billion of the $12.9 billion allocated for security and anti-terrorism measures under the program but he couldn't determine where the other $3.1 billion went. The Treasury Board had no clear answers for him.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

I hope Harper finds the Liberal responsible for this.


----------



## FeXL

You owe me a new keyboard... ROTFLMAO!


----------



## CubaMark

*Submission to Canada’s Open Government Consultations
September 2014*​
On 24 April 2014, the Government of Canada announced the commencement of consultations to develop its second Action Plan on Open Government. The Action Plan is part of Canada’s participation in the Open Government Partnership (OGP), an intergovernmental movement whose member States meet minimum openness standards and which agree to make further commitments to openness.

* * * *​
...it is worth noting an incident which took place at an Open Government event organised by CLD in Halifax immediately following the government’s OGP 11 September consultation, which was attended by three Treasury Board representatives. The event was meant to be an opportunity for meaningful dialogue between the government and a smaller group of expert stakeholders. Among the participants were two journalists, who were invited by CLD because they are known to be prolific users of the access to information system. 

As soon as the government representatives learned that there were journalists present, they announced that they would be unable to speak in the session, or respond to any of the points raised or questions asked since, according to Canadian government policy, a media representative would need to be present for them to make any comments “on the record”.

_The fact that Canada’s open government representatives were unable to discuss the country’s open government strategy without being overseen by a press relations officer speaks volumes about the problems in the government’s approach to openness_ and why there is scepticism about the government’s commitment to openness. Open government is not about public relations, or presenting a groomed and crafted image to the public of what the government is doing. On the contrary, it is about honest, open relations and information exchanges between government and the people.

(Centre for Law & Democracy)


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> I hope Harper finds the Liberal responsible for this.


They did an extensive audit, and did find where the money went....


....almost a year ago:


John Ivison: The $3.1-billion Conservative boondoggle that never was | National Post



> A painstaking six-month search by a team inside Treasury Board has followed the money and reconstructed the entire $12.9-billion in allocations the Auditor-General examined.
> 
> Departmental officials said Thursday they can now account for all of the spending. “It was a monumental piece of work,” said one official.
> 
> Most often the discrepancy was because spending was not tagged as being for anti-terror programs. For example, $246-million was transferred from Citizenship and Immigration to the new Canadian Border Services Agency but the money was not identified as being part of the Public Security and Anti-Terrorism Initiative envelope.
> 
> In other cases, money “lapsed” — that is, it was not spent on the purpose for which it was originally allocated — and was returned to general revenues. This was the case with the Canadian Air Transport Safety Authority, which returned $132.6-million to general revenues that had been earmarked for anti-terror initiatives.
> 
> Officials said lessons from the post 9/11 blitz had already been learned by the time the Conservatives rolled billions out the door in stimulus spending. The Auditor-General looked at that multi-departmental spending spree and did not find similar discrepancies.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*YeeeeeeHaaaaaaw!*

Mike Duffy Senate expenses trial set for 41 days starting in April - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness Harper has brought him to justice. 



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Mike Duffy Senate expenses trial set for 41 days starting in April - Politics - CBC News


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Thank goodness Harper has brought him to justice.


No doubt. 

If Duffy had a *real* smoking gun he would have revealed it much before this and he could have swung a deal to avoid the 31 criminal charges that were brought against him.

But he doesn't, so he didn't.

Up until now he has just been buying time to come up with a good "story" to try to wriggle out of being prosecuted for his own malfeasance.

It seems apparent that his strategy didn't work and he was still indicted.

He is and forevermore shall be disgraced, and so he should be.

There is no doubt that he will try and establish that he was "duped"/setup by PMO. 

How pathetic is that? 

To have as your defence that you should have known better but were just too stupid to notice...

It really is too funny/sad.

And yet somehow the PM, for some (the anti-harperits), is the bad guy.

Geesh all the PM wanted was for Duffy to pay back what he owed to the Canadian public and then when Duffy refused Wright stepped in (which he shouldn't have) to make things right. 

While what he did is acceptable in corporate culture (what he was used to) it isn't in the public service so he made the mistake of thinking he was just doing his job.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nonetheless, a well timed trial. Should be interesting to see what Harper's appointee chooses to reveal.


----------



## Macfury

I can't see this as a huge story. This is a senate-wide problem that is being dealt with. Anything Duffy says will simply be an embarrassment--to himself.



screature said:


> No doubt.
> 
> If Duffy had a *real* smoking gun he would have revealed it much before this and he could have swung a deal to avoid the 31 criminal charges that were brought against him.
> 
> But he doesn't, so he didn't.
> 
> Up until now he has just been buying time to come up with a good "story" to try to wriggle out of being prosecuted for his own malfeasance.
> 
> It seems apparent that his strategy didn't work and he was still indicted.
> 
> He is and forevermore shall be disgraced, and so he should be.
> 
> There is no doubt that he will try and establish that he was "duped"/setup by PMO.
> 
> How pathetic is that?
> 
> To have as your defence that you should have known better but were just too stupid to notice...
> 
> It really is too funny/sad.
> 
> And yet somehow the PM, for some (the anti-harperits), is the bad guy.
> 
> Geesh all the PM wanted was for Duffy to pay back what he owed to the Canadian public and then when Duffy refused Wright stepped in (which he shouldn't have) to make things right.
> 
> While what he did is acceptable in corporate culture (what he was used to) it isn't in the public service so he made the mistake of thinking he was just doing his job.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Geesh all the PM wanted was for Duffy to pay back what he owed to the Canadian public and then when Duffy refused Wright stepped in (which he shouldn't have) to make things right.
> 
> While what he did is acceptable in corporate culture (what he was used to) it isn't in the public service so he made the mistake of thinking he was just doing his job.


I still strongly disagree with the notion that Wright did anything wrong. The only thing he's guilty of is having more integrity than his critics. The money needed to be paid back, and the guy the PMO appointed refused to make restitution, so he took responsibility and paid it back himself. We should be honouring him, that's the kind of guy we need more of in politics.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I still strongly disagree with the notion that Wright did anything wrong. The only thing he's guilty of is having more integrity than his critics. The money needed to be paid back, and the guy the PMO appointed refused to make restitution, so he took responsibility and paid it back himself. We should be honouring him, that's the kind of guy we need more of in politics.


Yep. I still don't see the problem here.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I still strongly disagree with the notion that *Wright did anything wrong*. The only thing he's guilty of is having more integrity than his critics. The money needed to be paid back, and the guy the PMO appointed refused to make restitution, so he took responsibility and paid it back himself. We should be honouring him, that's the kind of guy we need more of in politics.





Macfury said:


> Yep. I still don't see the problem here.


He did in terms of Parliamentary rule of order. That is the whole problem. 

I agree in the terms that you refer to... the problem is that isn't the way Parliamentary law is written.

We can only face the laws the way they exist and not the ways we wish they would be.

I'm not saying Wright did anything morally wrong, but he clearly didn't fully understand the rules of Parliament.

I just think he should have brushed up on the rules while being on the job if not before.

If he did this whole fiasco could have been avoided.

It was his job to do so.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good to go.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, Mr. Harper has made as much clear.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Clearly.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Tee Hee Hee*

.


----------



## Macfury

The likenesses are not very good. Who is supposed to be in the bed?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> The likenesses are not very good. Who is supposed to be in the bed?


With PM Hairpiece? Laureen I think! :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Good to go.


It is just Mr. Wright's word that is what the PM said but who knows if he actually spoke to the PM or what was actually said.

The anti-harperits will try to glom onto anything that may portray the government in a bad light, it is just what they do.

Guily until proven innocent... maybe you should move to France, cause that isn't the way we do things here.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

"The anti-harperits will try to glom onto anything that may portray the government in a bad light, it is just what they do."

If I could understand any of this it would help. ?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> "The anti-harperits will try to glom onto anything that may portray the government in a bad light, it is just what they do."
> 
> If I could understand any of this it would help. ?


You do speak English...? It seems you do...

Perhaps it was the word *glom* that confused you.. I don't know:



> glom
> gläm/
> verb
> North Americaninformal
> verb: glom; 3rd person present: gloms; past tense: glommed; past participle: glommed; gerund or present participle: glomming
> 
> steal.
> "I thought he was about to glom my wallet"
> *become stuck or attached to*.


I am not really sure what the reasons are for your lack of understanding of a very simple statement.

But any rate it is not my problem.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> With PM Hairpiece? Laureen I think! :lmao::lmao::lmao:


Your posts are really disgusting... Now you have resorted to being so low that you bring the PM's wife into the discussion.

Of your 3 personas, I think *stink * would be the better choice to make the post...

Seeing as it BS.


----------



## SINC

Jimbo has never been known for his tack or diplomacy. His absence was enjoyed. Too bad he crawled out from under his rock again.


----------



## FeXL

Things must be slow(er) over at MD...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Things must be slow(er) over at MD...


If it were any slower, they'd be motionless.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Jimbo has never been known for his tack or diplomacy. His absence was enjoyed. Too bad he crawled out from under his rock again.





FeXL said:


> Things must be slow(er) over at MD...





Macfury said:


> If it were any slower, they'd be motionless.


I really don't care what happens at MD.

But if jimbo, stink, or skippy is bored by what is or is not going on at MD he is free to post here.

He can say whatever he wants to say unlike at MD... maybe that is why he is posting here after such a long hiatus...

And those of us here who disagree with him are free to shoot down his statements.

Maybe he is missing the freedom at ehMac?...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Your posts are really disgusting... Now you have resorted to being so low that you bring the PM's wife into the discussion.
> 
> Of your 3 personas, I think *stink * would be the better choice to make the post...
> 
> Seeing as it BS.


Mrs. Hairpiece and bigot posing for photo.


----------



## Macfury

Since when is opposing the effete Liberals being bigoted?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

At least Calandra isn't near to being a criminal unlike his predecessor Del Mastro. Sheeesh, where does Harper get these guys from? Oh yeah the CP caucus.

Call an election now please.

At Issue: Democracy in action, or abuse of Parliament? - The National - CBC Player


----------



## Macfury

Why would you expect anyone to call an election now--because some goofy telecom guy in Ottawa is following a news aggregator? 

Harper has more work to do, disposing of additional Liberal institutions before an election is called.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Harper has more work to do, disposing of additional Liberal institutions before an election is called.


You mean small "l" liberal. He is succeeding.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You mean small "l" liberal. He is succeeding.


Actually, I mean "progressive" insitutions. However, Liberal is synonymous with that.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Absolutely love Calandra weeping in the house today. Waaaaah!!!

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/the-root-causes-of-paul-calandra/article20813289/?service=mobile&cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it

Call an election Hairpiece.


----------



## Macfury

This proves he was sincere. Well done, Mr. Calandra!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Absolutely love Calandra weeping in the house today. Waaaaah!!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> This proves he was sincere. Well done, Mr. Calandra!



Yah sure. 

Good to go.


----------



## Macfury

I demand they call an election for October 2015!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yah sure.
> 
> Good to go.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sooner than later would be better.


----------



## SINC

Be good to put the Cons back in power in 2015 to continue the progress. Don't need any more Quebec leaders, or for that matter pot heads or NDPee ers.


----------



## Stink

SINC said:


> Be good to put the Cons back in power in 2015 to continue the progress. Don't need any more Quebec leaders, or for that matter pot heads or NDPee ers.


.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sooner than later would be better.


So you want the government to break the law when it suits you... 

Yep that is what I have come to expect from "you guys"... i.e. skippy, jimbo and stink.

We all know you are one and the same person.

Why not fess up to it?

There is much more evidence for you all being the same person here than there is for Stephen Harper being aware of the details of the Duffy/Wright affair and yet you continue to pretend.

skippy, jimbo and stink... 

Look in a mirror or a kettle and tell me that the practices you condemn aren't the very same as those you condone and participate in actively.

I can't say it any more bluntly... you are an unabashed hypocrite.

In fact it seems you are proud to be one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

We accept all real apologies. We accept Calandra's at face value. Next?


----------



## CubaMark

*What a class act, that Ezra Levant. A real peach of a fellow.*

_The video consists of Ezra Levant saying extraordinarily vulgar and vicious things about Liberal leader Justin Trudeau and his family, regarding a recent encounter in which Trudeau had kissed a local bride on the cheek as she and her bridesmaids smiled for the camera. Levant said Trudeau was symbolically “deflowering” the bride as in medieval times, sexually insulted Trudeau’s mother, said his father “banged anyone” and “was a slut,” said a female CBC journalist was losing bodily control in Trudeau’s presence and then there was something about “panties.” – Heather Mallick_​
Working to find a cure for Ezra Levant: Mallick



> I cannot say whether Ezra Levant, who, believe it or not, is a lawyer, is unwell or a horrible person or just an idiot with an underpants fetish, but he certainly represents his viewership, which is all of these things. I have the emails to prove it.


----------



## Macfury

That's crazy. Pierre Trudeau was promiscuous, not a slut.

I tried to find the video online, but the OP did not supply a link. Did you see this video, CM, or are you just "Tweeting" it?



CubaMark said:


> *What a class act, that Ezra Levant. A real peach of a fellow.*
> 
> _The video consists of Ezra Levant saying extraordinarily vulgar and vicious things about Liberal leader Justin Trudeau and his family, regarding a recent encounter in which Trudeau had kissed a local bride on the cheek as she and her bridesmaids smiled for the camera. Levant said Trudeau was symbolically “deflowering” the bride as in medieval times, sexually insulted Trudeau’s mother, said his father “banged anyone” and “was a slut,” said a female CBC journalist was losing bodily control in Trudeau’s presence and then there was something about “panties.” – Heather Mallick_​
> Working to find a cure for Ezra Levant: Mallick


----------



## CubaMark

Haven't seen it - Mallick provided a link, but it appears that Sun News has pulled the video (quel surprise!).

If you doubt it's authenticity, you may also wonder why Sun News apologized in a statement before Levant's show last night for his remarks. Also note how Levant himself has issued no such personal apology.



> *The full text of the apology:*
> 
> _“In a monologue that aired September 15, 2014 on The Source, host Ezra Levant criticized Justin Trudeau for ‘photo-bombing’ a bridal party. In this monologue he detailed a number of controversies involving Justin Trudeau’s parents and their marriage.
> 
> “It is the view of Sun News that this segment was in poor taste and should not have been aired. We understand why many viewers found both the content and language of this segment to be offensive.
> 
> “We apologize to Mr. Trudeau, his family and to our viewers.”_​


----------



## FeXL

*What a class act, that Pierre Elliot Trudeau. A real peach of a fellow.*

Giving the one finger salute to protestors in Salmon Arm, BC...


----------



## Macfury

I wanted to know if YOU had seen it, or whether you were just piling on with a "tweet."

I don't doubt its authenticity. I had merely hoped to enjoy the clip.




CubaMark said:


> Haven't seen it - Mallick provided a link, but it appears that Sun News has pulled the video (quel surprise!).
> 
> If you doubt it's authenticity, you may also wonder why Sun News apologized in a statement before Levant's show last night for his remarks. Also note how Levant himself has issued no such personal apology.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I wanted to know if YOU had seen it, or whether you were just piling on with a "tweet."


Nope. Neither could I find it on youtube nor vimeo. Surely someone out there has a copy....?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good2go!


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Good2go!


Uh, no, not so much.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep ur right good buddie.

Google's ur good buddie, good buddie.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep ur right good buddie.
> 
> Google's ur good buddie, good buddie.


Apparently in your case, once an ass, always an ass. Kinda like Trudeau. 

Good thing Rex has him figured out too. Who needs Ezra when the truth of Trudeau's depth shines through?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXfyXu2jXsI


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yur good to go good buddie.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> We accept all real apologies. We accept Calandra's at face value. Next?


Next?! 

Maybe you should first apologize for having *at least* 3 personas here one ehMac...

That could be a start.

Next!... :lmao: You can seriously make such a statement without apology???

Without an apology I consider you shameless, without scruples or a moral compass at least in your postings here.

I suspect you don't care because such statements are coming from "the likes of "me"... i.e. those who disagree with you.

Personally I wasn't all that convinced by Calandra's apology.

But we all do have to take it at face value. The Opposition seems to have accepted it but it really doesn't matter... either it was sincere or an "orchestrate event"... 

Either way the Opposition is going to keep railing on the issue. Sincere apology or not...

One thing I will say though is I have to wonder about the sincerity of the opposition motion... It is completely political opportunism.

They can move such a motion because they know unless hell freezes over they will not form the next government.

If they did it would be interesting to see if they would actually follow through and create a government Bill that proposes such reform...

At least Michael Chang had the balls to introduce (a severely flawed Bill that required amendments before it ever reached 2nd reading) but at the very least he had the cojones.

I highly doubt that any potential NDP government backbencher would ever defy angry Tom in such a manner and still reasonably expect to be in Caucus.

So much for the *D* in NDP and the same for the Liberals under JT.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

All partisan stuff aside I believe something horrible has happened to Rick Anderson's family.


----------



## CubaMark

Somebody wanna tell me what the H-E-Double-Frakkin'-Hockeysticks they're smoking at the Conservative Caucus meetings? 

*John Baird suggests Canada could be in for a lengthy war in Iraq*

...what, is this the great plan for renovating Canada's military? Send our crap gear halfway 'round the world to get blown out of the sky while fighting against foes created (directly or indirectly - you can guess where I'm leaning) by the great war machine that lies across our southern border, thus requiring replacement through - I'm speculating here  - no-tender contracts awarded to U.S. "defence contractors" starting with a new order for a fleet of F-35s?

Seriously. Who put these damn Ayn Rand-descendent monkeys in charge of my country?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's a noble thing. You wouldn't understand.


----------



## Macfury

Are you completely ignorant? If Ayn Rand were in charge, we wouldn't be stuck with either your demeaning, wasteful socialist bull$hit OR foreign wars with countries that haven't attacked us.



CubaMark said:


> Seriously. Who put these damn Ayn Rand-descendent monkeys in charge of my country?


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Somebody wanna tell me what the H-E-Double-Frakkin'-Hockeysticks they're smoking at the Conservative Caucus meetings?
> 
> *John Baird suggests Canada could be in for a lengthy war in Iraq*
> 
> ...what, is this the great plan for renovating Canada's military? Send our crap gear halfway 'round the world to get blown out of the sky while fighting against foes created (directly or indirectly - you can guess where I'm leaning) by the great war machine that lies across our southern border, thus requiring replacement through - I'm speculating here  - no-tender contracts awarded to U.S. "defence contractors" starting with a new order for a fleet of F-35s?
> 
> Seriously. Who put these damn Ayn Rand-descendent monkeys in charge of my country?


*Canadian military intervention in Iraq is 'noble,' Harper says *

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/top-general-briefs-harpers-cabinet-on-islamic-state-in-iraq/article20856118/

Obviously "Noble" has become the new Conspeak euphemism for idiotic.tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Let's just call it "glorious" and get it over with.


----------



## heavyall

The jackasses who oppose getting involved in the fight against ISIS would have just let Hitler be too.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The jackasses who oppose getting involved in the fight against ISIS would have just let Hitler be too.


They would be inviting Hitler to speak at all of the big liberal universities as he condemned North American culture. He'd be the darling of their social set.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Original Tea Baggers Party in NYC 1939 - American Nazi Organization*

You jokesters crack me up!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You jokesters crack me up!


Thanks for a look back at the history of National Socialism. The Left is _awesome_!


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> The jackasses who oppose getting involved in the fight against ISIS would have just let Hitler be too.


Hate to point out the obvious, but everything we supposedly know about ISIS comes from the same propaganda machine that brought us those non-existant WMDs and Sadam's nuclear program. They were lying then and they are lying now.

The only thing Canada can hope to accomplish by getting involved is to increase our debt to the Banksters and make things even worse for the people living in Syria and Iraq. See the results of original Iraq and Libya invasions if further proof is required.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Hate to point out the obvious, but everything we supposedly know about ISIS comes from the same propaganda machine that brought us those non-existant WMDs and Sadam's nuclear program. They were lying then and they are lying now.
> 
> The only thing Canada can hope to accomplish by getting involved is to increase our debt to the Banksters and make things even worse for the people living in Syria and Iraq. See the results of original Iraq and Libya invasions if further proof is required.


I guess you missed those beheading videos, did you, Bob?

That is all the proof I need from the horse's mouth to help blow them away.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> I guess you missed those beheading videos, did you, Bob?
> 
> That is all the proof I need from the horse's mouth to help blow them away.


*ahem*

*Saudi Arabia, key to Obama’s strategy, beheaded at least 8 people last month*












> U.S. Secretary of State John F. Kerry was in Saudi Arabia on Thursday, meeting delegations of Arab diplomats as the Obama administration attempts to cobble together a coalition of allies to confront the threat of the Islamic State. There are no illusions that the task ahead will be easy, and President Obama stressed in his Wednesday night speech the vital role Arab states have to play in breaking the terror organization's insurgency.
> 
> The active cooperation of Saudi Arabia, with its vast oil wealth, its well-equipped military and its broader influence among the Middle East's Sunni states, is key to any extended U.S. war effort in Iraq and Syria...





> In the space of two weeks last month, according to the rights group Amnesty International, Saudi Arabia executed as many as 22 people. At least eight of those executed were beheaded, U.N. observers say.
> 
> It appears that *the majority of those executed in August were guilty of nonlethal crimes, including drug trafficking, adultery, apostasy and "sorcery." Four members of one family, Amnesty reports, were beheaded for "receiving drugs."*


(WashingtonPost)


----------



## Macfury

It's not the fact that Saudis use beheadings as punishment for their own citizens. It's that they are beheading OUR citizens. 

Cuba still has capital punishment by firing squad on its books, but if citizens of Western countries were being summarily executed by firing squad elsewhere, it would not make me feel that I was being hypocritical because I did not go after Cuba for shooting its own.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Hate to point out the obvious, but everything we supposedly know about ISIS comes from the same propaganda machine that brought us those non-existant WMDs and Sadam's nuclear program.


Donald Rumsfeld is the point man on ISIS???

Seriously though, this is significantly different than Saddam. That was an obvious mistake, and it was very clearly proven that the US was lying well before they even went in. With ISIS, the most damning info isn't even coming from the US. The same outlets that were ridiculing the US back then, are now saying things are very serious, and if anything the US is downplaying the situation.



SINC said:


> I guess you missed those beheading videos.


If you're referring to the James Foley and David Haines videos, that much did not sway me, as those videos were clearly edited, and filmed in much higher quality than the others that ISIS has sent out. And, most telling, they don't show the killing. ISIS kills people by the thousands, and they gladly film the whole thing for all to see. There are many sites out there that post them daily. Why were these ones, so different from the rest, singled out by the American media? There is clearly some f*ckery afoot there.


----------



## MacGuiver

Going back into Iraq is the last thing the Obama administration wants to do. If you think its the US propaganda machine pumping this conflict, think again. As Sinc says, the iSIS youtube channel is all you need to watch.
Regarding Saudi, I'm no fan either. Another backwards example of the "religion of peace" in absolute control of a country.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Cuba still has capital punishment by firing squad on its books, but if citizens of Western countries were being summarily executed by firing squad elsewhere, it would not make me feel that I was being hypocritical because I did not go after Cuba for shooting its own.


For the record: _Article 29.1 of the Cuban Criminal Code states that while capital punishment is a legitimate form of punishment within the Cuban legal system, it is regarded as “exceptional” and is only ordered in the “most serious offences”. Women who are pregnant when committing the crime or during the trial and those individuals who are under 20 years are excluded from the death penalty. Capital punishment is executed by a firing squad._


----------



## Macfury

That's right. So if Western journalists were executed by firing squad by terrorists, I would not say that Canada is being hypocritical in condemning the terror killings because it maintains relations with Cuba, which may execute criminals by firing squad




CubaMark said:


> For the record: _Article 29.1 of the Cuban Criminal Code states that while capital punishment is a legitimate form of punishment within the Cuban legal system, it is regarded as “exceptional” and is only ordered in the “most serious offences”. Women who are pregnant when committing the crime or during the trial and those individuals who are under 20 years are excluded from the death penalty. Capital punishment is executed by a firing squad._


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Great news - Del Mastro is heading for the Klink later this month*

Harper boy and his family in a little campaign fraud.


MP Del Mastro’s cousin faces charges under Elections Act | canada.com


----------



## Macfury

He would need to be convicted before being sent to the klink.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep that's coming. I just sent his office a pope soap on a rope.


----------



## FeXL

Funny, same kind of math as the warmists. What is it with these guys? All of them on Common Core?

Eligible + likely voters ÷ party preference = Huh?



> So, just to straighten things out: According to various polls, the Liberals led the Conservatives in June by eight points, and widened their lead to sixteen points (44% to 28%) in July. Their current 33% support, which ties them with the Conservatives among likely voters but puts them ahead by three points among eligible voters, is a three-point increase in support since June.
> 
> Hope that clears everything up.


Yep...


----------



## screature

Yet another ridiculous and embarrassing statement from JT:



> ...Justin Trudeau is facing criticism for suggesting that Canada should consider a humanitarian mission in Iraq rather than *“trying to whip out our CF-18s and show how big they are."*


CTV

If JT is ever PM he will be an utter embarrassment on the international stage and make Canada a laughing stock.

The things he says in unscripted interviews repeatedly displays his immaturity and lack of understanding of issues "big and small". 

God help us all if he ever becomes PM.


----------



## SINC

Yep, but he will only become PM if a majority of Canadians are as stupid as he is, and that may not be likely.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep, but *he will only become PM if a majority of Canadians* are as stupid as he is, and that may not be likely.


Sadly that is not quite correct. All he needs is a plurality to become PM...That is what scares me.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Sadly that is not quite correct. All he needs is a plurality to become PM...That is what scares me.


Well, if there are that many stupid Canadians, God help us.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

As opposed to all the enlightened around here? LOL!


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Well, if there are that many stupid Canadians, God help us.


I don't think it is a matter of stupid.

It is more a matter of buying, once again, into Trudeau mania, albeit of an even more vacuous nature this time around.

At least PT had some intellectual and experiential grounds on which to base his arrogance.

JT not so much.

As an example JT's antics with his boxing matches are a good example... Putinesque in terms of displaying Machismo as a reason for being elected.

A complete debasing of the seriousness of what it is to be a political leader. Just as he did with the stripping routine.

The guy is a bafoon.

But in the age of "social" media I would not be surprised at all if he could win a plurality (hopefully not, but even a majority of seats) and become Canada's PM

Purely based on pedigree and good looks the Liberals ("small and big"  L) have decided he is the heir apparent hoping that they can control him like a puppet if the Liberals form government.

I would hope that Liberals would be having some second thoughts about JT based on what he has to say when he doesn't have a script to read from.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> As opposed to all the enlightened around here? LOL!


I hope you are including yourself when you make such an open ended statement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hilarious


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Call an election bigots.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election *bigots*.


Really?

Where the hell did that come from?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hilarious


Not really to anyone with anyone with an understanding of the English language.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> Where the hell did that come from?



Eckville.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

How do you like the polls?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Call an election please.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Eckville.


You are the bigot, not to mention sexist as you have displayed before.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yuk yuk


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How do you like the polls?





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election please.





> *When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.*


It is indeed unfortunate that neither you nor your idol have matured past childhood.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Call an election chickens!


----------



## FeXL

Bring it.

If he loses, then he's gone. With the Liberals in Ontario scrambling like cockroaches in the light to fix their self-induced provincial financial ruin, this is far more the likely scenario.

If he wins, it'll only take a few months before he shows his complete inability to run a country & he'll be gone in 4 years anyway.

Either way, win/win.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Not my idol.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

But likely the people's choice.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Call an election


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Democracy and all that good stuff


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> Bring it.



on


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not my idol.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> But likely the people's choice.


Geesh you didn't seem to display enough cognitive ability to string two sentences together with those two posts.  beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Up yours


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Up yours


JT is that you!!!???


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

C'est moi la Dauphin.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Liberal minority govt. NDP official opposition. And CPC as the turd party.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Liberal minority govt. NDP official opposition.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one!

Better take another hit off that bong, Jimbo. Maybe it'll clarify things for you...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Eckville needs a new history teacher. Apply.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Gotta sign off my just spayed pup needs love.


----------



## FeXL

And, let's not forget the wunnerful, wunnerful job that Jug Ears is doing stateside. Not even your average Liberal is so stupid as to ignore either Barry or the Ontario Liberals.

Shiny Pony as PM? Fuggetaboutit...

Bring the election!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> C'est moi la Dauphin.


Tell me something I didn't know.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> And, let's not forget the wunnerful, wunnerful job that Jug Ears is doing stateside. Not even your average Liberal is so stupid as to ignore either Barry or the Ontario Liberals.
> 
> Shiny Pony as PM? Fuggetaboutit...
> 
> *Bring the election!*


I can't agree. 

The government has about one more year to fulfill it's mandate.

There is still much, much more work to be done in the the coming months.

Don't let the likes of Skippy derail the good work that can be done in the next year.

We have an election date by legislation and let us just stick to it for once.

Don't let yourself be goaded by the likes of skippy.

Time will tell and time may be on "our" side... 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Gotta sign off my just spayed pup needs love.


Why, Jimbo, that sounds almost...human!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Gotta sign off my just spayed pup needs love.


Okay on that front we can talk/agree... she is a cone head right now I suspect. 

That is a difficult time for the puppy and the puppy owner. 

Good luck.

In my experience It works out well in a few days or maybe a week.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Don't let yourself be goaded by the likes of skippy.
> 
> Time will tell and time may be on "our" side...


Gonna take a little more than anything he's offered thus far to goad me.

And, time is on our side. That's why he wants an early election. Seriously, between Ontario Libs & Jug Ears, the more time elapses with them at the helm the more damage is done. US mid-terms are going to be very telling...


----------



## Macfury

Skippy, your Bush Kangaroo has been deleted.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Gonna take a little more than anything he's offered thus far to goad me.
> *
> And, time is on our side. * That's why he wants an early election. Seriously, between Ontario Libs & Jug Ears, the more time elapses with them at the helm the more damage is done. US mid-terms are going to be very telling...


I believe in never say never so that is why I said may be...

We are way too far out too say anything definitively and thus why due diligence is necessary.

Even Mulroney said JT has to be taken seriously... I don't think he meant it on a policy/brains front but just that he has popular appeal from the general public that pays no attention to the details.

That populace has to be addressed as well in terms of votes.

In politics you can absolutely be correct in your policies but unless you can get people to vote for you it matters not.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Even Mulroney said JT has to be taken seriously... I don't think he meant it on a policy/brains front but just that he has popular appeal from the general public that pays no attention to the details.
> 
> That populace has to be addressed as well in terms of votes.
> 
> In politics you can absolutely be correct in your policies but unless you can get people to vote for you it matters not.


Right. So, worst case, just like stateside, if Shiny Pony offers iPhones to all the low information voters, he'll get in. He sure as hell ain't gonna manage it on his brains or current policy. Like I said, that'll last one term & he'll be out on his royal ass.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Okay on that front we can talk/agree... she is a cone head right now I suspect.
> 
> That is a difficult time for the puppy and the puppy owner.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> In my experience It works out well in a few days or maybe a week.


Our mini golden doodle was done a few weeks back. The vet suggested we put her in an infant 'onesy' instead of a cone. (We picked up a half dozen at the local dollar store). Worked wonderfully and much easier on the pup. Just sayin and by the way. even she is bright enough not to vote Liberal or NDP. Another Quebec leader is something Canada does not need for a very long time.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Seriously. Who put these damn Ayn Rand-descendent monkeys in charge of my country?


Just a little quote for all the Ayn Rand fans around here...



> “The man who refuses to judge, who neither agrees nor disagrees, who declares that there are no absolutes and believes that he escapes responsibility, is the man responsible for all the blood that is now spilled in the world.” – Ayn Rand


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey thanks for the pup wishes. We have onesies around here from my last son...good idea. So far no cone or anything else. Doing well.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And yeah you tube did in skippy damn.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And yeah you tube did in skippy damn.


With my compliments:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Right. So, worst case, just like stateside, if Shiny Pony offers iPhones to all the low information voters, he'll get in. He sure as hell ain't gonna manage it on his brains or current policy. *Like I said, that'll last one term & he'll be out on his royal ass.*


JT and the Libs can do a lot of damage in one term if they (god forbid) get a majority.

It is just prudent to take him/them as a potential threat to this country and the damage they could do, here at home and our reputation abroad.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Our mini golden doodle was done a few weeks back. The vet suggested we put her in an infant 'onesy' instead of a cone. (We picked up a half dozen at the local dollar store). Worked wonderfully and much easier on the pup. Just sayin and by the way. even she is bright enough not to vote Liberal or NDP. *Another Quebec leader is something Canada does not need for a very long time.*


I don't think it matters where they come from as much as what their policies are...

I doubt JT really sees himself so much as a Quebecer. 

He fancies to see himself as a representative of the "youth" and a "new" way of doing things... the naive, inexperienced, young and the CBC will indeed buy into that rhetoric.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You realize of course this is exactly what the opposition feels about Harper and the damage he has done with a majority.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And yeah you tube did in skippy damn.


What? Is that a new dialect of the English language?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You realize of course this is exactly what the opposition feels about Harper and the damage he has done with a majority.


Of course I do. But that is what the "battle" is all about isn't it.

Opposition vote splitting in 2015 will tell the tale and it isn't looking good for them despite your highly unlikely/inexperienced/wishful thinking predictions.

The polls this far out are meaningless... if you have been following along in recent Canadian politics you would know this, but it seems you haven't and thus you don't.

All that polls this far out do is to line the pockets of the various pollsters, they know that (thus why they do it) and any one with half a brain knows that by now.

P.S. Maybe you could stop being so lazy and actually quote the person and the statements you are addressing.

Or are you somehow exempt from such common decency and forum protocol?...

Maybe you should ask stink and jimbo before you make up your mind and come to some kind of agreement.  beejacon


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> ...the naive, inexperienced and young will indeed buy into that rhetoric.



Ah, the terminally stupid.

Eg,. those low information voters that will vote Liberal because of a free iPhone...


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Ah, the terminally stupid.
> 
> Eg,. those low information voters that will vote Liberal because of a free iPhone...


Yes but they should not be discounted/ignored... there are, sadly, many of them.

Every vote counts.


----------



## screature

Muslim leaders in all nations should be actively and *LOUDLY *denouncing the rhetoric and actions of ISIS/ISIL.

They need to be MUCH more vocal in their denunciation of ISIS/ISIL.

At the very least to curb their children going abroad to kill and/or be killed.

There is a moral imperative at play here and the Muslim leadership in the "free" world needs to step up to the plate in a *BIG *way. 

That would be very helpful. 

Thus far they have been pretty much quite if not silent.

They certainly don't seem to be putting much effort into making the headlines.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You realize of course this is exactly what the opposition feels about Harper and the damage he has done with a majority.


I know they say it, but they don't believe it. Both Justin and Mulcair know for an absolute fact that Harper has done a far better job than either of them ever could, even under the best of conditions.

But, yeah, "the damage he's done" is a good meme that resonates with low information voters really well.


----------



## heavyall

As usual, Harper is playing chess while the opposition is playing checkers. When's the last time 64% of Canadians supported anything the federal government is doing?

Majority of Canadians back use of fighter jets to strike ISIS in Iraq - National | Globalnews.ca



> Almost* two-thirds (or *64 per cent) of Canadians said they’re strongly or somewhat in support of Canada sending jets*, likely CF-18s, to launch strikes on ISIS targets in Iraq, according to an exclusive Global News/Ipsos Reid poll.
> 
> *That’s more than the number of Canadians who supported Canada taking on a combat role in Afghanistan*, based on a poll conducted in 2001


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> As usual, Harper is playing chess while the opposition is playing checkers. When's the last time 64% of Canadians supported anything the federal government is doing?


There ya go again, letting facts get in the way of a good progressive rant...


----------



## SINC

So, even the people’s cherished CBC's top newsman is on the take:

Revelation CAPP paid Mansbridge, defender of Murphy's speaking fees, brings controversy back to boil | rabble.ca


----------



## Macfury

To paraphrase skippythebushkangaroo--put CBC up for sale NOW!


----------



## FeXL

Bring it!


----------



## Macfury

Bring it NOW! What is the CBC afraid of? Cowards!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://tinyurl.com/ozmy3d9


----------



## FeXL

Yeah, interesting when the Media Party gets some competition: "Oh, the horror of it all!"

Also, see the spineless leftist media south of the border. Took over two years before anything substantial was printed about Benghazi...


----------



## Macfury

The "progressive" media is already in philosophical lockstep. Concentrated ownership wouldn't make a difference for them.



FeXL said:


> Yeah, interesting when the Media Party gets some competition: "Oh, the horror of it all!"
> 
> Also, see the spineless leftist media south of the border. Took over two years before anything substantial was printed about Benghazi...


----------



## CubaMark

Well, I guess this is one way to turn over old stock... just as these puppies were scheduled to be retired, the Conservatives announced in March a $2-billion upgrade to keep 'em flying until 2021-2030 (approximately when replacements are supposedly coming on-line). No idea if the two birds we're sending have been upgraded, or if they're just a couple pulled from the rotation in Greenwood... Heck, can these things even make it across the Atlantic? 

*Auroras from Greenwood to be deployed in ISIS mission*










_Two CP-140 Auroras from 14 Wing Greenwood will be deployed in the fight against ISIS, Prime Minister Stephen Harper told the House of Commons Wednesday.

Canadian aircraft set to take part in the mission will also include CF-18s from 4 Wing Cold Lake and a CC-150 Polaris tanker from 8 Wing Trenton.

Harper, however, is not saying where the aircraft will be stationed while overseas.

“I know that the military is continuing to work on the deployment plan and I'm not in a position at this point to confirm where that deployment will be,” Harper said.

MPs voted 157-134 Tuesday night to back the government's motion to join U.S.-led airstrikes against ISIS for a period of up to six months.

Most of the Canadian Forces’ Auroras are typically located at 14 Wing Greenwood in the Annapolis Valley.

Earlier this year the federal government announced it was pouring $2 billion into upgrades over the next seven years to keep 14 Auroras flying until 2030.

The aircraft is often used for surveillance and reconnaissance and has a range of 7,400 kilometres. An Aurora from Greenwood was deployed in NATO’s Libya mission three years ago._

(CBC)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Well, I guess this is one way to turn over old stock... just as these puppies were scheduled to be retired, the Conservatives announced in March a $2-billion upgrade to keep 'em flying until 2021-2030 (approximately when replacements are supposedly coming on-line). No idea if the two birds we're sending have been upgraded, or if they're just a couple pulled from the rotation in Greenwood... Heck, can these things even make it across the Atlantic?
> 
> *Auroras from Greenwood to be deployed in ISIS mission*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Two CP-140 Auroras from 14 Wing Greenwood will be deployed in the fight against ISIS, Prime Minister Stephen Harper told the House of Commons Wednesday.
> 
> Canadian aircraft set to take part in the mission will also include CF-18s from 4 Wing Cold Lake and a CC-150 Polaris tanker from 8 Wing Trenton.
> *
> Harper, however, is not saying where the aircraft will be stationed while overseas.*
> 
> “I know that the military is continuing to work on the deployment plan and I'm not in a position at this point to confirm where that deployment will be,” Harper said.
> 
> MPs voted 157-134 Tuesday night to back the government's motion to join U.S.-led airstrikes against ISIS for a period of up to six months.
> 
> Most of the Canadian Forces’ Auroras are typically located at 14 Wing Greenwood in the Annapolis Valley.
> 
> Earlier this year the federal government announced it was pouring $2 billion into upgrades over the next seven years to keep 14 Auroras flying until 2030.
> 
> The aircraft is often used for surveillance and reconnaissance and has a range of 7,400 kilometres. An Aurora from Greenwood was deployed in NATO’s Libya mission three years ago._
> 
> (CBC)


It was just stated today during QP where they will be stationed. Lots was going on so I was multitasking, I believe Minister Nicholson said Kuwait has agreed to station them.

At any rate if I am wrong as to the exact location they do now have a location where they will be stationed. 

What I find rather comical with the Opposition is that they expect all operational details to revealed in QP. 

It is just ridiculous partisan politics in an election year.

Of course operational details cannot be revealed in QP where ISIL can view in advance what we are doing or will do.

It is just stupid domestic politics in an election period.

Remember in wars gone by when we had encoded messaging in place to make sure the enemy was not aware of our military plans???

Now in the age of twitter, Facebook and other forms of social networking the Opposition expect the Government to reveal detailed plans of the operation where ISIL can easily have access to them.

It is just pure partisan politics and stupidity to the extreme.

Completely ridiculous.

I suspect the Opposition secretly hopes that the mission will fail, in the end meaning that Canadian lives will be lost and so they think they can gloat and say, "see we told you so" just for their petty, small minded, partisan purposes.

Never mind what is the right or wrong thing to do.

The Opposition under Mulcair and Trudeau will be on the wrong side of history on this matter IMO....

Even former heavy hitter Liberals are coming out and saying as much... because they can speak the truth and what they believe without being whipped by so called "Leaders".

The Opposition is being truly pathetic on the matter of ISIL. They seem to have no understanding of the gravity of the situation at all. They just seem to want to gain "political points" with their domestic electoral base in an election period rather than doing what is correct and proper.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep it's PM toupé's successor with too much time on his hands. 2015 - bring it on...http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/5961704?utm_hp_ref=canada-politics&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep it's PM toupé's successor with too much time on his hands. 2015 - bring it on...Jason Kenney's Staff Behind Anti-Trudeau Graphics He Tweets


It seems you missed this part:



> Gregory Thomas, the federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, said *Canadians shouldn't be surprised that ministerial staff, or staff in opposition leaders' offices or the prime minister's office are engaged in such political activity.
> 
> "They are all doing politics 24/7 365 [days a year]," he said. "You can pretty much expect that anything that comes out of those offices is going to be of a partisan nature, whether supporting or opposing what the government is doing."*


What a shocker that it was surprising to you.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It seems you missed this part:


He would need to read he articles not to miss that part. The news aggregator only selects posts, but does not explain them to jimbo.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> He would need to read he articles not to miss that part. The news aggregator only selects posts, but does not explain them to jimbo.


Yes. It seems he only grazes on headlines and never actually reads the articles which he links to...

He, as many left leaning posters here seem to do, only post links without any personal/original "value added" things to say, maybe it is becuase they don't, and all they can do is let other people do their thinking for them.

I don't know, but it seems to be Modus operandi of some here (at least in the past, seeing as this place is now on the verge of death).

But it is most definitely, jimbo, skippy and stink's Modus operandi.


----------



## Macfury

There's occasionally the weak explanation from some that: "I thought you might not have heard about this."


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> There's occasionally the weak explanation from some that: "I thought you might not have heard about this."


True. 

But then at the very least they could do is to add a comment about what they think about the article and stop being so intellectually lazy.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> True.
> 
> But then at the very least they could do is to add a comment about what they think about the article and stop being so intellectually lazy.


Absolutely.


----------



## FeXL

Not a conspiracy theory.

The Media Party's Secret Deal



> Senior executives within the media party hold talks behind closed doors -- about manipulating the the news. Guess who they're conspiring to protect?


Defund the CBC...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More BS from the bigot network. 

2015 can't come soon enough.


----------



## SINC

Yep put the Conservatives back in and axe the CBC. Bring it on indeed!


----------



## MacGuiver

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More BS from the bigot network.
> 
> 2015 can't come soon enough.


So what was BS in Levants report? 

Seems pretty obvious they were conspiring to protect Boy Trudeau from himself. As mentioned in the emails, even CBC legal knew they had no case but that didn't stop them from secretly conspiring to save Justin.
The guy is in way over his head and the Liberal media want so desperately to hide the fact.


----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver said:


> The guy is in way over his head and the Liberal media want so desperately to hide the fact.


But, but, but, Shiny Pony is so...GROOVY!!!! :love2:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Looking forward to Sona's sentencing today. Looks like Del Mastro's next. 

Call an election now. Why wait?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election now. Why wait?


Because there are still more "progressive" institutions left to dismantle. You're a fool if you can't see that.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Looking forward to Sona's sentencing today.


It will be interesting to see if justice is applied equally. Both the NDP and LPC MPs who were nailed for their illegal robocalls got off with just a small fine.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It will be interesting to see if justice is applied equally. Both the NDP and LPC MPs who were nailed for their illegal robocalls got off with just a small fine.


Strangely, in this case, the Crown admitted that they didn't seek the higher ups who were likely responsible for this prank.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Strangely, in this case, the Crown admitted that they didn't seek the higher ups who were likely responsible for this prank.


That is consistent across the board, Con higher-ups were also let off the barbless hook.

FWIW I consider the robo calls another smoke screen issue. Beyond telling us what we already knew about the extreme slime factor in Canadian politics, the issue does nothing to advance the interests of any of Canada's political parties.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh well. News that Sona will not be sentenced until sometime next month. Bring on Del Mastro's verdict then.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh well. News that Sona will not be sentenced until sometime next month. Bring on Del Mastro's verdict then.


This is a really sad day for you, Skippy.


----------



## MacGuiver

FeXL said:


> But, but, but, Shiny Pony is so...GROOVY!!!! :love2:


Sadly Felix I have no confidence in Canadian voters to see his ineptitude while they swoon over his flowing hair. Too many low information voters out there to see through this guy. Not to mention the media party running cover for him with softball questions and promotion.
How the heck he is polling as well as he is given his total lack of experience, leadership, actual policy (other than grave matters like pot smoking) and his constant foot in mouth syndrome. This leave me worried the race will come down to an American Idol style election where beauty and stage presence are all that matter. It happened in the States and it'll likely happen here. 

The similarities between the fans of Justin Trudeau and the fans of another famous Canadian Justin are uncanny.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Looks like this could be a bestseller similar to "On The Take" - not saying that the Cons will be reduced to a breeding pair though. 

http://o.canada.com/news/party-of-one-harper-and-the-merchant-of-venom


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Looking forward to Sona's sentencing today. Looks like Del Mastro's next.
> 
> Call an election now. Why wait?


How out of touch are you... his sentence will not be handed down until November... try and keep up skippy.

As always you want to have a lynching before the trial is done....

Strange how that is... the Libs only *try to pretend* they are democratic so long as they are not in power. 

But then again also while not in power they act and talk like dictators (JT anyone) advocating for kangaroo courts and everyone with whom they disagree is guilty until proven innocent...

The hypocrisy is palpable... no..no.. that is not strong enough a word... maybe stink... no been there done that... not strong enough...

Stench! That is the word. Stench!!

That should be your new persona jimbo, skippy, stink.

Stench! That is it! It suits you!

Wear the moniker with pride, you have earned it. Well done. :clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Nope. Trudeau would just kill the economy, and make Canada an international laughing stock.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Nope. Trudeau would just kill the economy, and make Canada an international laughing stock.


What else would you expect from a pot head kid, born with a silver spoon in his mouth?

Surely not intelligence and the ability to lead?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

That the best you got Skippy?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> That the best you got Skippy?


Not much rational thought should be expected to come from kangaroos.

That is why they named a particular kind of court after them.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh yeah

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/10/19/...conservatives-risk-2015-defeat-poll-thompson/


----------



## Macfury

You won't recognize Canada by then!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh yeah
> 
> Time running out for Harper as Conservatives risk 2015 defeat: poll


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bring it on Steve

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...tephen_harper_trend_gains_momentum_hbert.html


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bring it on Steve
> 
> http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...tephen_harper_trend_gains_momentum_hbert.html


Still a year of great strides against "progressivism" to go! If that trend is true, Stephen Harper will have nothing to lose by redoubling his own efforts against "progressive" malaise!


----------



## FeXL

I wonder if Shiny Pony has any problem with DND & Ottawa Police "whipping out" their weapons this morning? Or is that indignation reserved only for overseas terrorists?

Perhaps he could have blazed up, sat down with the gunmen & got stoned together, ending with a rousing version of "Kumbaya" and hugs all around...


----------



## Macfury

If that interview with Mansbridge was any indication, job one would be to find out why the perpetrators feel disaffected and disenfranchised.



FeXL said:


> I wonder if Shiny Pony has any problem with DND & Ottawa Police "whipping out" their weapons this morning? Or is that indignation reserved only for overseas terrorists?
> 
> Perhaps he could have blazed up, sat down with the gunmen & got stoned together, ending with a rousing version of "Kumbaya" and hugs all around...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> If that interview with Mansbridge was any indication, job one would be to find out why the perpetrators feel disaffected and disenfranchised.


Didn't see it but, apparently, I didn't miss anything. 

Oh, & Wynne is brave when the bullets are flying a full city away:

Wynne on Ottawa shooting: 'We refuse to be silenced'



> Ontario's political leaders considered suspending question period Wednesday at the province's legislature in light of a shooting at Parliament Hill in Ottawa, but the premier said they "refuse to be silenced."


I jes' luvs me sum false bravado from the safety of a city away...


----------



## Macfury

It was JT's response to a question about the Boston Marathon bombing.

Wynne's comments are nothing if not bizarre. 




FeXL said:


> Didn't see it but, apparently, I didn't miss anything.
> 
> Oh, & Wynne is brave when the bullets are flying a full city away:
> 
> Wynne on Ottawa shooting: 'We refuse to be silenced'
> 
> 
> 
> I jes' luvs me sum false bravado from the safety of a city away...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It was JT's response to a question about the Boston Marathon bombing.
> 
> Wynne's comments are nothing if not bizarre.


Think I recall something about that now.

Yes, she stepped in it big time. Acknowledge the event, offer your support, move on. Even David Cameron (between 19:03 & 19:04) got that. She's hardly in a position to be doing any chest thumping in the first place.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. All good questions. Another failure of the Harper majority govt. 

http://o.canada.com/news/national/den-tandt-attack-on-ottawa-reveals-utter-lack-of-readiness

Lest we forget.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. All good questions. Another failure of the Harper majority govt.
> 
> Lest we forget.


Ya know, Jimbo, those are some interesting questions, although I would personally rate them somewhat less than "good".

Seeing as you're asking, how about taking a shot at a few of these?

1) How is it that, in a country with some of the most restrictive gun possession laws on the planet, a guy whose passport has been revoked & who is on a national, if not international watch list, is still able to lays his hands on a firearm? Could it be that gun laws don't actually restrict criminals from acquiring firearms? Could it be because criminals don't actually observe the laws in the first place? 

How does this qualify as a Harper government failure?

Perhaps you'd prefer a police state where innocent, law-abiding citizens & civilians are not allowed access to anywhere without military guarded checkpoints & papers, instead? Metal detectors & frisking at entrances to everything from the Houses of Parliament right down to your local high school & the 7-11? Is that what you want? Is that the sort of control that you would have the Liberals place over this country? With Shiny Pony as the ultimate dictator?

2) As important as it is to get information out to the people of this great country, especially in times of crises, don't you think that actually finding & dealing with the perpetrators should be the first priority? And, it might actually take more than 15 or 20 minutes?

Not getting the latest news updates isn't going to kill you. The perpetrators might. It's pretty much common sense, actually. Keep your head down & block the doors, stay away from the windows. Yes, not knowing sucks, especially if you are in the middle of it. Maintain a little self-control, use your head, move on when the time presents.

How does this qualify as a Harper government failure?

3) No argument with #3. Poor choice of medium & personality. Using your terminology, a failure.

4) See #2.

Tandt's biggest issue seems to be the lack of information when he expected it, when he wanted it. As a journalist trying to do his job, I can respect that. 

However, there is little else in his argument.


----------



## FeXL

Very revealing...

It’s all about the words: Harper, Mulcair and Trudeau’s speeches visually parsed

#1 word for Shiny Pony? "Values". How touchy-feely...

Where's that vomiting emoticon when you need it?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. All good questions. Another failure of the Harper majority govt.
> 
> Attack on Ottawa shows utter unpreparedness | canada.com
> 
> Lest we forget.


:lmao: Worst column of the day on the subject.

It figures rabid partisans like you and Den Tandt would drag what happened yesterday down into the vilest inane kind of commentary. Den Tandt should be ashamed and so should you.

The comments were bang on:



> So out-of-line, it's hard to know where to begin. Another bit of sensationalist reporting from someone who should know better. In the the thick of the action, when events may still be unfolding, does one really think they are entitled to detailed answers and information that could possibly put more people, security forces and the public alike, at greater risk from accomplices or other copy cats. Let alone whether such intelligence has been gathered, analysed, verified, corroborated? You know, like any good journalist or reporter is expected to do? Use your head.





> This article is an utter embarrassment. What anyone with a half a brain saw today was a professional response in a difficult situation. You seem baffled that the gunman managed to take that first shot in 'broad daylight'... Hint : You live in an open democracy. Unless you want military and police using Iraq/Afghanistan tactics on the streets of Ottawa, It's literally impossible to prevent that first tragic event. He was then stopped before being able to kill anyone else. So, yeah, "an utter lack of readiness"... You're a sharp one.





> I for one am VERY glad that the security forces spent their time making sure that our government and the citizens of Ottawa were safe rather than grandstanding in front of reporters who by all accounts were in the way and repeatedly asked to move back. I appreciate the fact that we live in a place where one can walk right up to Parliament hill or pull up a blanket on the lawn and watch the light show and do not want that to change. For all his angst, the security worked. The gunman didn't get access to any of our politicians (or the reporters covering them) and was killed by the head of security in Parliament (give that man a medal quickly!). I used to read Den Tandt but he's not getting any click throughs from me anymore.





> Canadians should be terrified because of what someone in the news media thinks is a communications failure?
> 
> I suppose the authorities could have stirred up public hysteria by putting out erroneous information about multiple shooters and engaged in mindless speculation without knowing the facts. On the other hand, perhaps that job is best left to the news media.


----------



## FeXL

<sigh>...


----------



## Macfury

Spot on.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> <sigh>...


Take another puff, JT.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Lots of hate here obviously. Good luck in 2015.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Lots of hate here obviously. Good luck in 2015.


Since when did reality become hate, Jimbo? Truth bites yer butt does it?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Good news coming from Alberta too. Bring it on Steve. 

http://lethbridgeherald.com/news/lo...onservative-support-slipping-in-alberta-poll/


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo is starting to see the light. From the cited article:


> Despite his personal appeal, Justin Trudeau and his Liberals attracted just 16.7 per cent of the “if an election was held today” voting intentions.


Good news indeed!




skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Good news coming from Alberta too. Bring it on Steve.
> 
> http://lethbridgeherald.com/news/lo...onservative-support-slipping-in-alberta-poll/


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Jimbo is starting to see the light. From the cited article:
> 
> 
> Good news indeed!


Yeah people out here are not big on Justin Puffer Trudeau.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Good news coming from Alberta too. Bring it on Steve.


Kewl! The Local Rag. I never read it.

That said, I know Faron Ellis personally. He's not only a client, but I went to school with his wife & attended their marriage. I respect his opinion & we have sat & discussed politics a few times over beer.

Nothing surprises me about the Calgary & Edmonton numbers. It's been that way for decades. Edmonchuk leans a bit more left, Calgary a bit more right.

Either way, nothing to threaten the Conservatives.

Bring it!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The bigot paper should be charged with promoting hatred.


----------



## FeXL

When they got nuttin' else, the Lefty's always play the racist card...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And sexist too.


----------



## Macfury

Olivia Chow should be charged with inciting hatred... of herself. Her campaign has been brutal.


----------



## Macfury

Toronto voters, there are still a few minutes left to ensure Olivia Chow's defeat!


----------



## heavyall

How is that cartoon either sexist or racist? It's a pretty good caricature of Chow.


----------



## Macfury

Chow down... concedes race:

Olivia Chow ends campaign at bus stop where she kicked off bid to become mayor eight months ago | National Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey all you CPC (Closet party of Canada) fans - what happened to the wild rosers in 'Berta?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What an absolute schmuck Delmastro is. Jail beckons. 

https://m.facebook.com/deandelmastro/posts/10152567288463842


----------



## Macfury

What kind of beacon, Jimbo?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What an absolute schmuck Delmastro is. Jail beacons.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/deandelmastro/posts/10152567288463842


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

^^The type they use to do a cavity verification check prior to closing the steel door.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hey all you CPC (Closet party of Canada) fans - what happened to the wild rosers in 'Berta?


They're abandoning the grass roots people who put them there in the first place by taking a less contentious & more popular centrist position. That, & Smith believes in the whole AGW bull$hit. My MP is Wild Rose. I spoke with him some time back & told him that I cannot support a party that believes in AGW.

We'll see what happens...


----------



## Macfury

Good for you. AGW is simply unproven theory filtered through "progressive" politics. I lost all interest in Wild Rose after I heard that nonsense. Usually a party needs to be in power for a few years before they start talking out of their a$$es like that. They were talking like Liberals before they even got started.



FeXL said:


> They're abandoning the grass roots people who put them there in the first place by taking a less contentious & more popular centrist position. That, & Smith believes in the whole AGW bull$hit. My MP is Wild Rose. I spoke with him some time back & told him that I cannot support a party that believes in AGW.
> 
> We'll see what happens...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More behind future convict Del Mastro's BS -

http://frankmag.ca/2014/10/whos-the-press-gallery-predator/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Let's go to war for 6 months but not take the necessary precautions to protect our unarmed ceremonial guard or MP's. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/o...urity-confusion-left-mps-locked-out-1.2815591

Time to get rid of this lot.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Let's go to war for 6 months but not take the necessary precautions to protect our unarmed ceremonial guard or MP's.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/o...urity-confusion-left-mps-locked-out-1.2815591
> 
> Time to get rid of this lot.


Thought the left didn't like weapons?

Or is that disdain reserved only for little people?


----------



## Aurora

Skippy, Do you not realize that CEREMONIAL guards are not armed because it is c-e-r-e-m-o-n-i-a-l.
You are so full of hate that you just spew garbage.
Grow up.


----------



## SINC

Aurora said:


> Skippy, Do you not realize that CEREMONIAL guards are not armed because it is c-e-r-e-m-o-n-i-a-l.
> You are so full of hate that you just spew garbage.
> Grow up.


Jimbo by any other name is still an A hole. He continues to provide proof of that day after day.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Closet Party of Canada supporters - that guard should not have been there. In fact, I've walked by the monument hundreds of times and never came across a guard. Apparently this is a relatively new phenomenon. Perhaps established after the pee pee incident. 

My point - after announcing war measures the ceremonial guard were sitting ducks. 

Someone did not think through the security implications.


----------



## Macfury

Don't be an idiot. There are no security implications. The target was a random choice selected by an ISIS-inspired lunatic.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Closet Party of Canada supporters - that guard should not have been there. In fact, I've walked by the monument hundreds of times and never came across a guard. Apparently this is a relatively new phenomenon. Perhaps established after the pee pee incident.
> 
> My point - after announcing war measures the ceremonial guard were sitting ducks.
> 
> Someone did not think through the security implications.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The security implication cost an unarmed soldier his life at The National War Memorial - idiot. 

Now there are various levels of police and surveillance at the site - idiot.


----------



## Macfury

Security is in place because someone was attacked--not because of any security implications that supposedly existed before a lunatic chose his targets. You are confused about cause and effect, jimbo.




skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The security implication cost an unarmed soldier his life at The National War Memorial - idiot.
> 
> Now there are various levels of police and surveillance at the site - idiot.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The security implication cost an unarmed soldier his life at The National War Memorial...


By extension, every citizen in this fine country should be packing then.

Is that what you want? Or, again, is weaponry for self defence only reserved for "special" people? 

And, who decides who is "special" & who isn't? You? Some lefty crony?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Let's see. Soldiers in uniform were targeted. Get it? Probably not. 

The state and its symbols are targets. Get it? Probably not.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Note that future convict Del Mastro removed his BS Facebook post.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Let's see. Soldiers in uniform were targeted. Get it? Probably not.
> 
> The state and its symbols are targets. Get it? Probably not.


So, what's the thrust here?

Only state symbols & the military are terrorist targets? Serious? That'll be small relief to innocent civilians the world over who have already paid with their lives.

Talk about somebody who doesn't get it...


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Let's go to war for 6 months but not take the necessary precautions to protect our unarmed ceremonial guard or MP's.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/o...urity-confusion-left-mps-locked-out-1.2815591
> 
> Time to get rid of this lot.


What are on about? This lack of communication between the Seante and House Security has nothing to do with the government.


----------



## screature

Aurora said:


> Skippy, Do you not realize that CEREMONIAL guards are not armed because it is c-e-r-e-m-o-n-i-a-l.
> You are so full of hate that you just spew garbage.
> Grow up.


:clap:


----------



## Macfury

So all members of the State must be protected by guns? Thanks for the great insight, Jimbo.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Let's see. Soldiers in uniform were targeted. Get it? Probably not.
> 
> The state and its symbols are targets. Get it? Probably not.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Note that future convict Del Mastro removed his BS Facebook post.


I hope you placed it in your diary, Skips.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> So, what's the thrust here?
> 
> 
> 
> Only state symbols & the military are terrorist targets? Serious? That'll be small relief to innocent civilians the world over who have already paid with their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about somebody who doesn't get it...



Do we have to spell out C-A-N-A-D-A. We're at war. Measures should have been taken to protect CANADIANS. Especially those in uniform and MPs.

You do not get it.


----------



## Macfury

Who are we at war with, Skippy?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Do we have to spell out C-A-N-A-D-A. We're at war. Measures should have been taken to protect CANADIANS. Especially those in uniform and MPs.
> 
> You do not get it.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Do we have to spell out C-A-N-A-D-A. We're at war. Measures should have been taken to protect CANADIANS. Especially those in uniform and MPs.
> 
> You do not get it.


Many of us already have measures in place. One of those measures has already produced results. The shooter is dead.

As to soldiers, absolutely.

As to MP's, meh. They want protection, they can take care of that themselves, just like the rest of the citizens in this country. They are _not_ special.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's Dean Del Mastro day! Boo.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It's Dean Del Mastro day! Boo.


Don't worry. If he receives a judgement commensurate with Liberals convicted of worse, he will be fine.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

@laura_payton: "I have concerns about his veracity," judge says. "Number of inconsistencies and improbabilities." re Del Mastro. "Frequently obfuscated" - going, going.....


----------



## Macfury

Your Twitter feed must move like molasses. Dial-up?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> @laura_payton: "I have concerns about his veracity," judge says. "Number of inconsistencies and improbabilities." re Del Mastro. "Frequently obfuscated" - going, going.....


----------



## Macfury

Both found guilty...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

👍


----------



## Macfury

They'll be fined on November 21.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

One less Harper fraud. And he will not be running in fall 2015, assuming we have to wait that long.


----------



## Macfury

He's an independent and paying a fine will not mean he will give up his seat in parliament. And yes, you have to wait that long before an election. There's much more dismantling to be done--an exciting time for Canada!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> One less Harper fraud. And he will not be running in fall 2015, assuming we have to wait that long.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

He'll get the boot. Speaker will rule on this. Harper will hang him out to dry cause that's what friends are for.


----------



## Macfury

If Stephen Harper welcomed him back you would complain. If Stephen Harper wanted him dismissed you would say he was stabbing DelMastro in the back. Your opinion is simply the bilious representation of your blind hatred.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper will hang him out to dry cause that's what friends are for.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He'll get the boot. Speaker will rule on this. Harper will hang him out to dry cause that's what friends are for.


Uhhmm...Harper dissociated himself from the guy by kicking him out of Caucus a long time ago now.

Try and keep up skippy.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> If Stephen Harper welcomed him back you would complain. If Stephen Harper wanted him dismissed you would say he was stabbing DelMastro in the back. Your opinion is simply the bilious representation of your blind hatred.


Agreed.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You tell us felon.

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2014/10/31/judgment-expected-in-del-mastro-case/#.VFQY5Ir3aaO


----------



## Macfury

That's just dim-witted of you Jimbo. There are no felonies in Canada. Do try to keep up with the rest of us.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You tell us felon.
> 
> Defiant Del Mastro: This isn’t over yet | National Newswatch


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> That's just dim-witted of you Jimbo. There are no felonies in Canada. Do try to keep up with the rest of us.


He really does seem "to be chronologically/factually challenged" at times...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

But used in Quebec my home province. Criminal will do in English.


----------



## Macfury

Sacre iliac!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Tabernac.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh oh 

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...8251/?service=mobile&cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo, for once read your own aggregated news links. You were just calling out the federal government for failing to do exactly what this legislation enables.

Oh...



Oh..... 



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh oh
> 
> How Canada's terror laws could change - The Globe and Mail


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Nothing like the hometown paper tellin' it like it is eh? PM Hairpiece's criminal hatchet man. Good choice Steve. More to come. 

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2014/11/01/pov-now-that-del-mastro-has-been-found-guilty


----------



## SINC

Boy are you gonna be pissed when the Conservatives get re-elected. Again. 

No logical choices left, either Mulcair, the beard from Quebec, the failed replacement for Jack, or pot head PET's kid from Quebec too. Some choice.

Better off with Steve indeed.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

With Del Mastro's conviction, Stephen Harper's party has been convicted of cheating in each of the three elections it has won.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

More embarrassing: Liberals getting convicted of cheating in elections they LOST!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> With Del Mastro's conviction, Stephen Harper's party has been convicted of cheating in each of the three elections it has won.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Nothing like the hometown paper tellin' it like it is eh? PM Hairpiece's criminal hatchet man. Good choice Steve. More to come.
> 
> PoV: Now that Del Mastro has been found guilty | Peterborough Examiner





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> With Del Mastro's conviction, Stephen Harper's party has been convicted of cheating in each of the three elections it has won.


What don't you get about Del Mastro getting kicked out of Caucus soon as he was indicted?

The party was convicted of nothing just certain individuals. With Del Masto, 3 to be exact.

So I guess in your world if anyone with affiliations with any group gets convicted of crime it means the whole group is culpable.

How McCarthian of you.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 50617


:lmao:

Those people who participated in that are as dumb as door knobs.

They say Stop Harper and yet they portray themselves as zombies....


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Those people who participated in that are as dumb as door knobs.
> 
> They say Stop Harper and yet they portray themselves as zombies....


Looks like a pretty accurate depiction of the typical Harper-Hater to me.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

But will not deny the scallywag his pension. Tsk tsk Harper. 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...ng-convicted-mp-dean-del-mastro/#.VFl2_Yo8KJJ


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> Looks like a pretty accurate depiction of the typical Harper-Hater to me.


Yeah, Skippy, Jimbo and Stink are of one mind with three accounts. His Harper Hater Habits Hang Here.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> But will not deny the scallywag his pension. Tsk tsk Harper.
> 
> Conservatives say they’ll support motion to suspend convicted MP Dean Del Mastro | National Newswatch


The optics aren't good on that one, for sure. I do understand it though, given Elections Canada's penchant for witch hunts. I don't know much about Del maestro (other than the party already kicked him out a year ago), but I have had direct personal interaction with the ridiculous ways EC goes about trying to railroad people, and with how they apply the rules one way for Conservatives and a completely different way for others. What they did to my MP was despicable, and patently dishonest.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Looks like the Harper hatchet man criminal has a choice to make. Just another pig sat the trough.
Del Mastro could keep gold-plated pension if he chooses resignation over suspension


----------



## Macfury

Just like any other job--funny that.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Looks like the Harper hatchet man criminal has a choice to make. Just another pig sat the trough.
> Del Mastro could keep gold-plated pension if he chooses resignation over suspension


----------



## Macfury

The Liberal party is not fit to lead Canadians:

Two Liberal MPs suspended from caucus over misconduct allegations | CTV News



> The federal Liberals are kicking two MPs out of their caucus over accusations of personal misconduct made by two members from another party.
> 
> Liberal whip Judy Foote has written to Commons Speaker Andrew Scheer to say she has looked into the allegations and that the two former Liberals, deny the claims.
> 
> Sources say the complainants are two female MPs.


Boot their asses out of the party, make them resign and eliminate their pensions, says Jimbo.


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo--where are you buddy? Thought you'd be right on this Liberal scandal.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What's with Harper's press sec - hatchet boys crying in the House? Call an election Steve.


----------



## Macfury

JT not willing to act. This boy doesn't have the stones to be leader of the Liberals, let alone the country:

Liberal MPs Scott Andrews, Massimo Pacetti suspended from caucus amid harassment allegations - Politics - CBC News

JT should step down NOW!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Del Gonzo!


----------



## Macfury

Ontario Liberals abetting sexual harassment. Wynne needs to step down NOW!

Liberal government accused of ignoring sexual harassment | Toronto Star


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Crooked lineage.


----------



## Macfury

HAR! Skippy didn't know what EDA meant!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Snivelling


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bring on the Duffster!


----------



## Macfury

The Liberal party is not fit to run in the next election:

Former Senator Mac Harb set for summer trial | Ottawa & Region | News | Ottawa S


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More on Del Gonzo and lack of support from his "brothers and sisters". The hot potato was dropped. 

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...6031/?service=mobile&cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it


----------



## Macfury

An excellent analysis of the Conservatives doing the right thing!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Del Mastro tried to treat courts as he did his political opponents - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More on Del Gonzo and lack of support from his "brothers and sisters". The hot potato was dropped.
> 
> Del Mastro tried to treat courts as he did his political opponents - The Globe and Mail


You seem to think that posting old news is somehow the same as posting breaking news...

I read this before I had my breakfast or got to work.... Do you do shift work and don't get up before 11am or something and think that the rest of the world runs on your time?

Your attempts at trying to "inform" anyone here is like watching reruns. 

Been there done that, I know the joke and the punch line.

Try to keep up skippy... one would think with those "powerful" hind legs you would be able to...


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bring on the Duffster!


Yes please do...

The sooner he is prosecuted the better the Canadian public can realize what a self serving son-of-a-bitch he was and how he betrayed his position and the PM that appointed him...

But not as badly as Mac Harb did and the PM that appointed him.

Poor, poor Jean the Strangler, he must feel so betrayed... but then again most likely not. 

I highly doubt he gives it a second of thought...

But that is "ancient history" now and so it is p.2 material at best.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Lookin' good Harper. We especially like your dislike rating. Call an election. 

http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/canada.html?spref=tw&m=1


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Safeguarding literature from the book burners?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A think tank? 🙊🙊🙊http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/cal...ing-his-own-conservative-think-tank-1.2826810


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Safeguarding literature from the book burners?
> View attachment 50761


.......


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

From Bradbury to Orwell -

http://www.pressprogress.ca/en/post...ulous-and-misleading-conservative-names-bills


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A think tank? 🙊🙊🙊http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/cal...ing-his-own-conservative-think-tank-1.2826810


  Is that lad capable cogent thought?


----------



## Macfury

The hierarchy of books:

Someone who writes books
Someone who reads books
Someone who owns books
And JT: Someone who knows a book when he sees it.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Safeguarding literature from the book burners?
> View attachment 50761


----------



## Macfury

He is too committed to Canada to engage in your electoral theatrics. Programs to slash and all!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election.


----------



## FeXL

(first quote from the American Political thread)



CubaMark said:


> The willingness of the deranged right to accept and embrace candidates with as much depth as a piece of paper continues to astound and disappoint me.


On the other side of the spectrum, let's take a look at one of the left's Shiny (see what I did there?), non paper-thin, examples of leadership & foreign policy...

Trudeau says Canada should help ISIS victims with 'cold winter' advice



> Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau says Canada shouldn't drop bombs to defeat ISIS but rather offer 'cold winter' advice to the victims.
> 
> ...
> 
> When asked from the crowd about Canada's part in defeating ISIS, Trudeau says that instead of "dropping bombs" as the Conservative government authorized its fleet of CF-18s to do this week, Canada could share it's expertise with harsh winters.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Paper thin?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That'd be 3 orders of magnitude improvement in Shiny Pony's case.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

He's so freaking transparent you could read the newspaper through him.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You want an election, Jimbo? Bring it!!!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> On the other side of the spectrum, let's take a look at one of the left's Shiny (see what I did there?), non paper-thin, examples of leadership & foreign policy...
> 
> Trudeau says Canada should help ISIS victims with 'cold winter' advice


If you guys think Trudeau is a "Lefty", your worldview is seriously out of whack. It's like the Tea Partiers who call Democrats 'socialists'. It hurts the brain to see such completely cluelessness.

As for the bit you cited above, the full quote from that SUN News story is:

hen asked from the crowd about Canada's part in defeating ISIS, Trudeau says that instead of "dropping bombs" as the Conservative government authorized its fleet of CF-18s to do this week, Canada could share it's expertise with harsh winters.

"I know there are other things Canada could do, that other countries wouldn't be able to do just as well...There's a lot of people, refugees, displaced peoples fleeing violence who are facing a very, very cold winter in the mountains. If something Canada has expertise on is how to face a winter in the mountains with the right kind of equipment," said Trudeau while motioning towards a window facing Jasper National Park.

"Canada is better than that and our forces certainly are as well," said Trudeau.​
Putting his remarks back into context, Trudeau was not saying that offering cold-weather survival information would combat ISIS. He was specifically referring to how Canada could provide assistance to refugees and those affected by the conflict. He speculated that this kind of support to the overall effort against ISIS would be better than dropping bombs from our CF-18s.

I'm no fan of Trudeau or the Liberals, but you should at least attempt to be honest in your representations of what was / was not said. But then gain, with SUN news as the source.... well....


----------



## Macfury

JT is a "progressive" hack, but his opinion draws from a deep well of his own stupidity.

Quoting the full article isn't helping your case.



CubaMark said:


> If you guys think Trudeau is a "Lefty", your worldview is seriously out of whack. It's like the Tea Partiers who call Democrats 'socialists'. It hurts the brain to see such completely cluelessness.
> 
> As for the bit you cited above, the full quote from that SUN News story is:
> 
> hen asked from the crowd about Canada's part in defeating ISIS, Trudeau says that instead of "dropping bombs" as the Conservative government authorized its fleet of CF-18s to do this week, Canada could share it's expertise with harsh winters.
> 
> "I know there are other things Canada could do, that other countries wouldn't be able to do just as well...There's a lot of people, refugees, displaced peoples fleeing violence who are facing a very, very cold winter in the mountains. If something Canada has expertise on is how to face a winter in the mountains with the right kind of equipment," said Trudeau while motioning towards a window facing Jasper National Park.
> 
> "Canada is better than that and our forces certainly are as well," said Trudeau.​
> Putting his remarks back into context, Trudeau was not saying that offering cold-weather survival information would combat ISIS. He was specifically referring to how Canada could provide assistance to refugees and those affected by the conflict. He speculated that this kind of support to the overall effort against ISIS would be better than dropping bombs from our CF-18s.
> 
> I'm no fan of Trudeau or the Liberals, but you should at least attempt to be honest in your representations of what was / was not said. But then gain, with SUN news as the source.... well....


----------



## Macfury

Boo hoo! Canadians are having more children than they can afford to raise and want others to pay for it.

Study ranks affordability of childcare across Canada - Business - CBC News


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Boo hoo! Canadians are having more children than they can afford to raise and want others to pay for it.
> 
> Study ranks affordability of childcare across Canada - Business - CBC News


To be fair, it doesn't say anywhere that parents are expecting others to pay for anything. It just lists the relative costs across the country, and even then only for regulated daycare. 

It is a terrible study though. What is the cost of unregulated daycare in those areas? We see the percent of the income, but it doesn't show how much that is. Around here at least, daycare costs are means based - if you make more, you'll pay more. The higher daycare cost could just as easily show those people are doing better than other places, but they conveniently leave that data out.

They also conveniently misrepresent that Manitoba has "set fees" with no range. That is categorically false. Daycare fees are income based here, and there is a very wide range in what you actually pay. Makes me wonder what else they're lying about.

full report is here:

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/s...tions/National Office/2014/11/Parent_Trap.pdf


----------



## Macfury

The Centre for Policy Alternatives, which compiled the study, is big into subsidized daycare.



heavyall said:


> To be fair, it doesn't say anywhere that parents are expecting others to pay for anything. It just lists the relative costs across the country, and even then only for regulated daycare.
> 
> It is a terrible study though. What is the cost of unregulated daycare in that areas? We see the percent of the income, but it doesn't show how much that is. Around here at least, daycare costs are means based - if you make more, you'll pay more. The higher daycare cost could just as easily show those people are doing better than other places, but they conveniently leave that data out.
> 
> They also conveniently misrepresent that Manitoba has "set fees" with no range. That is categorically false. Daycare fees are income based here, and there is a very wide range is what you actually pay. Makes me wonder what else they're lying about.
> 
> full report is here:
> 
> https://www.policyalternatives.ca/s...tions/National Office/2014/11/Parent_Trap.pdf


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> The Centre for Policy Alternatives, which compiled the study, is big into subsidized daycare.


How much in dollar value has the Centre for PA invested in their daycare business unit?


----------



## Macfury

They don't invest directly. They want government to do it for them.



BigDL said:


> How much in dollar value has the Centre for PA invested in their daycare business unit?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> They don't invest directly. They want government to do it for them.


Corporate Welfare. It's an outrage!


----------



## Macfury

Yes, agreed. All corporate welfare is an outrage.



BigDL said:


> Corporate Welfare. It's an outrage!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

CPAC covering the 10th anniversary of the abuse of Maher Arar tonight. A fitting tribute for November 11. Lest we forget.


----------



## Macfury

This is not at all a fitting tribute for November 11th.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CPAC covering the 10th anniversary of the abuse of Maher Arar tonight. A fitting tribute for November 11. Lest we forget.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *If you guys think Trudeau is a "Lefty", your worldview is seriously out of whack.* It's like the Tea Partiers who call Democrats 'socialists'. It hurts the brain to see such completely cluelessness.
> 
> As for the bit you cited above, the full quote from that SUN News story is:
> 
> hen asked from the crowd about Canada's part in defeating ISIS, Trudeau says that instead of "dropping bombs" as the Conservative government authorized its fleet of CF-18s to do this week, Canada could share it's expertise with harsh winters.
> 
> "I know there are other things Canada could do, that other countries wouldn't be able to do just as well...There's a lot of people, refugees, displaced peoples fleeing violence who are facing a very, very cold winter in the mountains. If something Canada has expertise on is how to face a winter in the mountains with the right kind of equipment," said Trudeau while motioning towards a window facing Jasper National Park.
> 
> "Canada is better than that and our forces certainly are as well," said Trudeau.​
> Putting his remarks back into context, Trudeau was not saying that offering cold-weather survival information would combat ISIS. He was specifically referring to how Canada could provide assistance to refugees and those affected by the conflict. He speculated that this kind of support to the overall effort against ISIS would be better than dropping bombs from our CF-18s.
> 
> I'm no fan of Trudeau or the Liberals, but you should at least attempt to be honest in your representations of what was / was not said. But then gain, with SUN news as the source.... well....


Well the party that he is the leader of has considered a dalliance in the past with forming a coalition with the NDP so while the Libs are not full fledged lefties they are definitely on the left side of the political of the fence.

I don't know how anyone can realistically see it any other way.

The Libs and the NDP may not be "kissing cousins" but they are "definitely brothers in arms", at least in the past...

Except for recent times because it is such a tight race for every party to differentiate one from the other.

Every party is scrambling to be the party of the "middle ground"... which historically has been the "Canadian way" or at least we have been told to believe...

This early on in the election cycle it has become interesting (with the LIbs and NDP at each others throats) and I suspect it will only get more interesting going forward.


----------



## MacGuiver

Maybe Trudeau's snow suits would be lined with kevlar.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Say this at a quick pace.
Several times perhaps-

"Whale Oil Beef Hooked"!

Taught ya a little NFLDese😄

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...fety-spending-cut-significantly/#.VGFc9oo8KJK


----------



## SINC

I see, degraded to insulting Newfoundlanders now are we?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Naw. Cornerbrook lassie taught me that.


----------



## Macfury

What's next Jimbo, are you going to perform a minstrel show?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Go get him Rocco!

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...targeting_federal_appeal_court_vacancies.html


----------



## Macfury

You go get him Rocco... make him hurry up with those court of appeal appointments! The government could fall on this!!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Go get him Rocco!
> 
> http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...targeting_federal_appeal_court_vacancies.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Je me souviens -


----------



## Macfury

Consolidated, not closed. Thanks for clarifying, Jimbo.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Excellent to see vets sitting for the arrival of Harper. Stood for everyone else and the anthem of course.


----------



## SINC

Geez Jimbo, you just don't get it. Harper stood for the vets, the way it should be.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You most certainly don't get it. The vets are protesting. There is a boycott on pics with Harper.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Bigot's back. http://m.theglobeandmail.com/arts/b...membrance-day/article21537390/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## CubaMark

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Bigot's back. Ezra Levant wrongly accuses Ontario school board of allowing exemptions for Muslim students on Remembrance Day - The Globe and Mail


Oh, that deserves to be quoted, not just linked...



> In a column published Tuesday in Sun newspapers, Mr. Levant writes that the Greater Essex County District School Board, which includes Windsor and Leamington, Ont., instructed principals “to be prepared to exempt Muslim students from Remembrance Day.”
> 
> He points to a memo issued last week in which Superintendent Sharon Pyke suggests accommodations may be made for some children. “Some families may be reluctant to have their children attend your location municipality’s ceremonies. Please note that meaningful alternate activities should be provided at the schools for those families who do not wish their children to participate in any Remembrance Day ceremonies.”
> 
> In his column, Levant says: “It's a disgrace that any family would object to it – especially an immigrant family who came here to benefit from our country. It would call into question the basis on which they applied for and were granted citizenship.
> 
> “And even if some old bigot from a backwoods village in Pakistan or Somalia doesn’t want to respect Canada, that's where our schools come in and teach those bigots' kids and grandkids what it means to be Canadian.


But, dear Ezra, the reality is this:



> the school board says, its memo had nothing to do with Muslim families. Rather, it was a response in part to safety concerns raised by parents whose children might be attending public memorial events. On Tuesday, about 300 students participated in a memorial at the Windsor Cenotaph that included dozens of veterans in uniform.


This mealy-mouthed bigoted arse is proof positive that the market doesn't work. He is consistently offensive, frequently fabricates issues and lies through his teeth - and yet he remains on the air. He's a disgrace.


----------



## heavyall

Ezra was right, the school division is lying to try to cover their butts. He showed the original memo on the air, it absolutely was allowing for people who objected to Remembrance Day to opt out. It even listed very specifically muslim resources for alternate activities.


You can discuss whether you agree with that policy or not, but if you tell me it was never about that, YOU are a liar too.


----------



## heavyall

Factual backgrounder on the Greater Essex County Remembrance Day memo | Ezra Levant



> *Factual backgrounder on the Greater Essex County Remembrance Day memo*
> 
> I have had a number of people ask me about the facts of the Greater Essex County District School board, and their memo about exempting students from Remembrance Day.
> 
> For those who are curious, here’s the provenance of that story:
> 
> -Someone who received an e-mailed memo from the school board forwarded it to me as a potential news item.
> 
> -We sent the school board the entire e-mail memo we had received, in exactly the form we received it, along with a number of questions about it.
> 
> -The school board’s spokesman, Scott Scantlebury, referred to their religious accommodation policy.
> 
> -At no point did Scantlebury mention anything about security concerns of parents. Scantlebury seems to have provided a different response to CBC.
> 
> -The memo we received only singles out one religion (in the links).
> 
> -That memo we received did not include the links to aboriginal, Asian, and African soldiers in the Canadian military. Scantlebury did not advise us of this fact. The quotes we cited from the memo are accurate.
> 
> 
> -I have attached my producer’s email exchanges yesterday with Scantlebury. I have only redacted the producer’s name and contact info.
> 
> http://www.ezralevant.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Windsor-school-board-correspondence-FINAL.pdf


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> .



What kind of adhesive does Harper use for his Lego helmet?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ezra is a bigot.


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Ezra is a bigot.


Prove it.


----------



## MacGuiver

Glad we have Ezra and Sun News. Its nice to have one media source in the country that questions and takes a critical look at Lefties and their policies. I love watching people like Justin Trudeau and Saint Suzuki running from hard questions like a bunch of cowards. If you watch Sun and the rest of the Left wing media you can get critical analysis of all sides of the political spectrum rather than just conservatives. Most Liberals don't want that though. They prefer the leftist tunnel vision of mainstream media and feel threatened by a news service that actually takes a critical look at lefty ideology and politics.


----------



## heavyall

Oh look! The Essex school board now admits that they sent different info to Levant than they released to the public. Hey, at least they're sorry for the "miscommunication".

Sun News : Essex County School Board apologizes for 'miscommunication'

The bottom line is, the religious aspect was specifically brought up by Essex, Levant only accurately reported what they told him that their concerns were.


----------



## CubaMark

Uh - no. I saw the memo published from different sources, including the one that was linked from the Sun News site. There was mention of a absences authorized under a religious exemption, yes. But it did not mention Muslims. There was a link to muslim members of the Canadian armed forces in the footer of the multi-page document, which was lumped in with links to African-Canadians who served and others. 

it was Ezra who made the leap to create the fabrication that muslims wanted to pull their kids out of Remembrance Day events. Ezra, not the school board, nobody else. The School Board perhaps issued a clumsily-worded memo, but it did not lead to that kind of a conclusion.

Ezra is not off the hook, and I'm surprised - if you've also taken the time to read the actual memo - that you would defend this jerk.


----------



## Macfury

You've been OWNED again CubaMark. You're like a butterfly pinned to a board.



CubaMark said:


> Uh - no. I saw the memo published from different sources, including the one that was linked from the Sun News site. There was mention of a absences authorized under a religious exemption, yes. But it did not mention Muslims. There was a link to muslim members of the Canadian armed forces in the footer of the multi-page document, which was lumped in with links to African-Canadians who served and others.
> 
> it was Ezra who made the leap to create the fabrication that muslims wanted to pull their kids out of Remembrance Day events. Ezra, not the school board, nobody else. The School Board perhaps issued a clumsily-worded memo, but it did not lead to that kind of a conclusion.
> 
> Ezra is not off the hook, and I'm surprised - if you've also taken the time to read the actual memo - that you would defend this jerk.


----------



## heavyall

Mark,

Ezra included all of the correspondence he had with the school board. The only references that were supplied to him were in reference to muslim resources. He even called them back to verify this before he went to air or posted the editorial. The links for other cultures, and the mentions of safety concerns were added on LATER after Ezra exposed it.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Ezra included all of the correspondence he had with the school board. The only references that were supplied to him were in reference to muslim resources. He even called them back to verify this before he went to air or posted the editorial. The links for other cultures, and the mentions of safety concerns were added on LATER after Ezra exposed it.


Here's how Ezra opened his story:

_EZRA LEVANT | SUN NEWS NETWORK

It's Remembrance Day. But not for everyone. The Greater Essex County District School Board in Ontario circulated an e-mail to the 75 schools it runs in places like Windsor and Leamington. The memo says teachers should be preparedto exempt Muslim students from Remembrance Day.

"Some families may be reluctant to have their children attend your location municipality's ceremonies. Please note that meaningful alternate activities should be provided at the schools for those families who do not wish their children to participate in any Remembrance Day ceremonies."

In case you were wondering which families they might be referring to, the school board didn't say specifically but pointed teachers to two Muslim-themed websites, including the story about the first Muslim soldier in the Canadian Forces who wore a hijab, an Islamic head covering._​
Here's the link - from Ezra's own website - to the PDF of correspondence (not all of it is provided, interestingly enough).

At the end of this version of the correspondence, two links are provided, one to a story about Palestinian-Egyptian-Canadian Lieutenant-Commander Wafa Dabbagh, a female muslim officer in the Canadian Armed Forces. The second is to a story on Captain Amir ElMasry, a muslim signals officer serving in Kandahar.

Another copy of memo issued by the school board included links to aboriginal-canadian soldiers and asian-canadian soldiers (interestingly, not included in Ezra's compiled PDF of correspondence which included the memo but not the additional links).

In any case, in NONE of the correspondence does the person from the School Board who is communicating with Sun News ever state that Muslims had requested that their children not participate. The SB representative explains that an exemption on religious grounds has existed "for some time", i.e., not specific to this Remembrance Day event.

The school board's Sharon Pyke appeared on the SNN and apologized to host Jerry Agar for the "miscommunication".

Here's the salient part of the transcript (the link above will take you to the full transcript):

_*PYKE:* No, at this point whatever question was asked of him, he answered the question. But I can tell you that this memo was truly about safety. And it was coming from families who were asking about what kinds of ceremonies, if there was going to be something outside, something with the municipality that they could or could not…they were concerned if they should send their children or not.

*HOST: Why was Islam the only religion that was singled in this memo. There were links about Asian, aboriginals, Africans, etc. in the Canadian military, which is good, but only one religion was singled out?* 

*PYKE:* We provided all sorts of information for our staff. And they would determine what things they wanted within their own ceremonies. Ceremonies look different all across each of our schools, and across the province. But we do have a responsibility, according to the education act to have a remembrance day ceremony. And So we provide information from them. There was nothing to do with specific to Muslim. It was just information that we provided.

*HOST:* No there was. There was a link to Muslim soldiers who have served. There was no link to Catholics or Presbyterians or Buddhists. 

*PYKE:* You're right there, was a link, for sure, that was provided to them. And we have had other in other years other links for different pictures and different videos that we have sent out. Even after the one that I just currently sent, the one that we've got, we actually sent another one coming from the ministry of education and the ministry of veteran affairs, which also gave yet another resource they could use._​
Note how the Host reinforces the misinformation by claiming that the memo specifically identified Muslims as being "singled out" in the memo, when they were obviously not. Sun News listeners hear what they want to hear - Jerry putting the screws to a muslim-loving liberal school board member, _Go get 'er, Jerry!_ - while her answer doubtless went unheard. 

The reality is once again lost in the bigot network's spin job. Your defence of this lunatic -_ "The links for other cultures, and the mentions of safety concerns were added on LATER after Ezra exposed it"_ - speaks volumes, as even Agar notes in this transcript that the links to others (aboriginal, asian) were in the memo. Ezra "exposed" nothing. He fabricated, bigot-interpreted and with gusto spread the falsehood that muslims wanted their children to be exempt from Remembrance Day activities as a special case, when no such request was ever made. Period.


----------



## heavyall

Mark, at this point you are deliberately lying. You've been shown the truth, and you're still trying to cover up.

In the lengthy quote you posted, Pyke admits there were different memos with different wordings and different links sent to different people, and confirms that the one that Ezra reported on was exactly what he got.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Mark, at this point you are deliberately lying. You've been shown the truth, and you're still trying to cover up.


***** you. * I have presented both the original material that EZRA provided, which clearly shows that there was NO mention of Muslims requesting that their children be exempted from Remembrance Day activities. Ezra inferred this from the presence of two links provided at the end of the document relating to muslim canadian soldiers, _which is proof of goddamned nothing_. 

*Apologize*.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> ***** you. * I have presented both the original material that EZRA provided, which clearly shows that there was NO mention of Muslims requesting that their children be exempted from Remembrance Day activities. Ezra inferred this from the presence of two links provided at the end of the document relating to muslim canadian soldiers, _which is proof of goddamned nothing_.
> 
> *Apologize*.


The material you linked to (and quoted) conclusively confirms exactly what Ezra wrote. Muslim resources were the ONLY ones linked to on Ezra's press release, and religious objections were the only reasons that the school board offered for opting out. The emails between Ezra and the board further confirm that this was the board's ONLY concern up until it became a media issue, THEN they drafted new memos with expanded parameters.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> The material you linked to (and quoted) conclusively confirms exactly what Ezra wrote. Muslim resources were the ONLY ones linked to on Ezra's press release, and religious objections were the only reasons that the school board offered for opting out. The emails between Ezra and the board further confirm that this was the board's ONLY concern up until it became a media issue, THEN they drafted new memos with expanded parameters.


If that's what helps you sleep at night, pal. Rationalize away....


----------



## BigDL

*Truly sad, a freedom squandered by Ezra/Heaveyall*



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Ezra is a bigot.





heavyall said:


> Prove it.


Ezra proves he's a bigot nearly every time his lips move. 

None so blind as he who will not see.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> If that's what helps you sleep at night, pal. Rationalize away....


I had no skin in that game at all, why would I have trouble sleeping either way? My only issue was that your version of events was not accurate.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> I had no skin in that game at all, why would I have trouble sleeping either way? My only issue was that your version of events was not accurate.


There is no my "version" of events. There are the facts. The documents are posted for all to see above. 

Please feel free to precisely indicate where the evidence lies to the contrary.


----------



## Macfury

Seriously? Just like the junk you post from Crooks and Liars without checking first?



CubaMark said:


> There is no my "version" of events. There are the facts. The documents are posted for all to see above.
> 
> Please feel free to precisely indicate where the evidence lies to the contrary.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> There is no my "version" of events. There are the facts.


Look Mark, I'm not just opposing you for sport here. When you're right, I've got your back. I backed you up in the Ebola thread when people were taking unwarranted shots at you. This is not one of those cases. Your own links do not say what you're claiming they say. Pyke clearly admitted that they sent different memos and different resource links to different people. The mistake (if you can call it that) was entirely the Essex School Board's, NOT Ezra's.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ezra is a bigot


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper to vets:

"Ben Dover, I'll drive"

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/11/11/delay-deny-and-die-the-harper-government-and-veterans/


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Look Mark, I'm not just opposing you for sport here. When you're right, I've got your back. I backed you up in the Ebola thread when people were taking unwarranted shots at you.


I sincerely appreciate that support, HeavyAll.



heavyall said:


> This is not one of those cases. Your own links do not say what you're claiming they say. Pyke clearly admitted that they sent different memos and different resource links to different people. The mistake (if you can call it that) was entirely the Essex School Board's, NOT Ezra's.


With all due respect, that is incorrect. I've just read through (yet again) the transcript of the interview. Pyke did not admit that different memos were sent to Ezra. She speaks of a single memo sent. There is reference to email communication as well (the documents that Ezra posted on his own website). In *none* of these documents are Muslims identified as being the ones who expressed any desire to remove their children from Remembrance Day ceremonies. 

I'm surprised at the desire to cover this guys' ass, when he is so clearly in the wrong - doing what he always does, fabricating issues of concern and creating hostility toward muslims (or really any non-white immigrant group).

Do you see anyone in the media (and I mean serious media, not some idiot with a blog) supporting Ezra's interpretation of the memo?

Here's a selection of the coverage this story has gotten in the past day:



> *Edward Keenan* Columnist, Toronto Star. Published on Wed Nov 12 2014
> 
> November 11, wrote Sun Media columnist Ezra Levant on Tuesday, “is a day of remembering why we are free, and what we stand for, and who sacrificed to make us this way.” He goes on: “It’s a disgrace that any family would object to it …”
> 
> Here’s a bigger disgrace: using the strong emotions evoked by Remembrance Day to drum up resentment against immigrants and religious minorities for completely imaginary disloyalty. Which is what Levant does.
> 
> * * *​
> *Understand that these Muslim families who purportedly object to Remembrance Day do not exist. Those ungrateful immigrants live only in Levant’s imagination.* The memo he refers to — as he notes later in his column — doesn’t even mention Muslims.





> *Ishmael N. Daro* • Canada.com
> 
> 
> Conservative commentator Ezra Levant is appalled that a school board in Ontario wanted to keep its students safe on Remembrance Day.
> 
> * * *​
> If Muslim-Canadian families had in fact asked that their children be kept indoors, they would have had good reason for concern. The two men who killed Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent in Quebec and Corporal Nathan Cirillo in Ottawa in late October were recent converts to Islam and Muslim groups across the country have reported an uptick in intimidation and harassment aimed at their communities since those killings. Four mosques were vandalized in Quebec just this past weekend.
> 
> The most odious part of Levant’s diatribe is the McCarthyite suggestion that Muslim-Canadians ought to be extra ostentatious in their patriotism, even though we don’t require such shows of loyalty from any other minority group in Canada.





> *SIMON HOUPT* • The Globe and Mail
> 
> A school board in southwestern Ontario is trying to correct the record after Sun Media personality Ezra Levant incorrectly accused it of kowtowing to Muslim students who wanted to avoid commemorating Remembrance Day
> 
> In a column published Tuesday in Sun newspapers, Mr. Levant writes that the Greater Essex County District School Board, which includes Windsor and Leamington, Ont., instructed principals “to be prepared to exempt Muslim students from Remembrance Day.”
> 
> * * *​
> The school board memo, which was primarily about the significance of Remembrance Day, included a series of six links directing teachers to online resources.
> 
> It was accompanied by 10 photographs, including pictures of Sikh soldiers and veterans, an Ojibwa Canadian veteran of the Korean War, a Mennonite veteran and a Jewish soldier in a prayer shawl carrying a Torah.
> 
> Other links included a memorial about the first Canadian Muslim woman to wear a hijab in uniform. There are also links to Google Image search results featuring aboriginal Canadian soldiers, African Canadian soldiers, and Asian Canadian soldiers.





> CTV Windsor
> 
> Officials from the Greater Essex County District School Board are responding to an opinion column in Monday’s Toronto Sun that says the board told teachers to be prepared to exempt Muslim students from Remembrance Day.
> 
> *School board officials say they were contacted for comment by Sun News, but their statements were not used in the commentary.*
> 
> The Toronto Sun piece, written by Ezra Levant, says “it’s insulting that either parents or the school board thinks Remembrance Day is in any way anti-Muslim.”


And on the matter of Levant's hate-mongering, from that lovely petition he posted, "Love it or leave it", he wrote:

_They told teachers that "meaningful alternate activities should be provided at the schools for those families who do not wish their children to participate in any Remembrance Day ceremonies.” And the memo specifically mentioned two Muslim-oriented resources, including celebrating the first Muslim soldiers in the Canadian Forces who wore the head-covering, called the hijab.

The message couldn't be any clearer: Canadian public schools, funded by Canadian taxpayers, no longer expect Muslim immigrants to observe Remembrance Day, or respect our war dead. It's shocking, and it's unacceptable. Anyone who immigrates to Canada should respect Canadian traditions, including Canadians who made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedoms._​
Is this Levant being truthful? Or being a hateful anti-muslim ass?

Given that the memo is now clearly understood to be about an issue of safety, not "kowtowing to unpatriotic muslims", why is the petition still online, and why hasn't Ezra corrected his position?


----------



## Macfury

It doesn't matter how many people support Levant. The truth is independent of that.


----------



## FeXL

Further fallout from Liberal government in Ontario.

Wynne's billion-dollar hydro boondoggle



> An occasional Sun News Network contributor and newspaper columnist, Parker and Scott Luft, an energy analyst and blogger, published a report last week on energy pricing for Wind Concerns Ontario - an anti-wind turbine group - that was truly alarming.
> 
> Titled "October, 2014, Ontario's breath-taking, record-breaking month for electricity bills," Parker and Luft reveal that last month, Premier Kathleen Wynne's Liberal government paid $1 billion more for electricity than the market value of that power.
> 
> Put another way, the so-called "Global Adjustment" in Ontario - the difference between the market value of electricity and what it actually cost to produce - topped $1 billion, for the first time, ever.


I know, I know. It's only Sun News.

Interestingly enough, I put these terms: ontario electricity 1 billion "Parker Gallant"

into two search engines (StartingPage & DuckDuckGo), looked through the first 3 pages of results and couldn't find a single article by the much vaunted CBC noted anywhere in those results.

Quelle surprise...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It doesn't matter how many people support Levant. The truth is independent of that.


I agree completely with that statement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

From the support the troops file -

http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/120...ing-for-change-not-normal-says-retired-major/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More from the support the troops file. So long Harper in 2015!

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2014/11/12/angry-vets-ask-soldiers-to-fight-tories/#.VGPmu4o8KJJ


----------



## FeXL

Well, I certainly hope Hizzoner reached out & gave the poor thief a hug after this unfortunate & stressful situation...

When is a bank robbery not a robbery? When the teller isn’t scared, judge rules



> A man who walked into a bank, gave a teller a note saying “This is a robbery” and then demanded money, took $600 cash from the teller, and left the bank with it, has been cleared of a robbery charge by a judge who ruled what he did is not, in fact, a robbery.


Handbasket, meet Hell.

I see I'm going to have to start packing around notes about Mom after this...


----------



## screature

I haven't been around too much lately, but I am a little bit surprised at all the attention Levant has garnered.

I met Levant back in the 90's, affable enough a fellow, but rabidly partisan then as he is now...

It is his schtick... It has served him well, it got him his gig at SunTV.

I never quote Ezra here, even though I agree with him at times, because I know what a polarizing figure he is and I don't want to go down that path, i.e., even when I agree with him there is no point is quoting him because it only provides a platform for the anti-Harperites to preach from.

Thus I avoid referencing him altogether, as this latest exchange demonstrates, it will just end up devolving into rabid partisanship. Which is exactly what he wants...

He wants no "middle ground", just either you are with us or against us kind of mentality. It is what he has built his career on, but I didn't like it when I met him and I don't like it now. 

So while I do read what he has to say, I never refer to it here as it proves to be nothing other than divisive.


----------



## Macfury

I never paid attention to Levant until the "progressives" began to kvetch about him here. I find a lot to like about him, and only sometimes dislike his message.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I want Hairpiece to stick around for the next election. 

The video of Kenny is priceless. Is he one of those oddballs from BC with a harem of wives and lotsa kids? Are those his wives and children? Isn't that illegal? 

http://o.canada.com/news/maher-jason-kenney-could-be-prime-minister-before-next-election


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I want Hairpiece to stick around for the next election.
> 
> The video of Kenny is priceless. Is he one of those oddballs from BC with a harem of wives and lotsa kids? Are those his wives and children? Isn't that illegal?
> 
> Maher: Jason Kenney could be prime minister before next election | canada.com


It seems all you did was watch the video (which was very solid and JT pales by comparison even to Jason Kenny when it comes to public speaking) and did not read the commentary.

At least Kenny wasn't putting some other person's child's life at risk by performing some macho sideshow act like he was a performer/clown at a circus.  

Keep on posting Jimbo/skippy/stink (and just for fun... stank and stunk).

Can't wait until 2015 and the debates... If SH doesn't deliver the knockout blow to JT, TM certainly will.

JT is so far out of his class that he isn't even smart enough to realize it. He is a light weight among heavy hitters and when it gets down to the final rounds his many weaknesses will become very apparent indeed.


----------



## CubaMark

*Does Harper really think anyone takes him seriously?*

*Stephen Harper at G20 tells Vladimir Putin to 'get out of Ukraine'*

_Harper's spokesman, Jason MacDonald, said the prime minister was speaking to a group of G20 leaders at a private leaders' retreat on Saturday morning when Putin approached and extended his hand.

MacDonald said Harper told Putin: "I guess I'll shake your hand but I have only one thing to say to you: You need to get out of Ukraine."

According to MacDonald, Putin did not respond positively. He didn't provide further details.

But a spokesman for the Russian delegation said Putin's response was: "That's impossible because we are not there."

* * *​
Harper has been a vehement Putin critic for months, with Canada and Russia trading a number of retaliatory sanctions.

He recently condemned the "continued penetration of Russian presence in eastern Ukraine and obvious actions to extend and provoke additional violence. That's of great concern to us."_

(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Are you so blinded by your politics that you don't see the value of that statement made publicly? Would you be happier if we had a big army to blast them out?



CubaMark said:


> *Does Harper really think anyone takes him seriously?*)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

CubaMark said:


> *Does Harper really think anyone takes him seriously?*



Hairpiece has his fans. That's why we're in the mess we're in. 

Time to give him a rightly deserved boot. Looking forward to the day we can start the restoration work.


----------



## Macfury

We're not in a mess, but a steady state of improvement. You won't recognize the country by the next election, Jimbo!




skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hairpiece has his fans. That's why we're in the mess we're in. .


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Are you so blinded by your politics that you don't see the value of that statement made publicly? Would you be happier if we had a big army to blast them out?


Sigh. What I regret is that we have a leader who appears to be more interested in boosting his image as a tough-guy, on par with superpower leaders. In reality he and his ministers for defence, international affairs, etc., are jokes in the eyes of anyone who has ever had to deal with them. Harper being aggressive with Putin is laughable. Little megalomaniacs in big britches talking tough will never succeed in making the Russian bear back off. The situation in the Ukraine requires diplomacy, a word that appears to be lacking in the Harper foreign affairs dictionary.


----------



## Macfury

Sighhhhhhhhh. {Matching your coy sigh with a longer one.]
CM, you only seem to like assertive statements when they come from the "progressive" side of the aisle. It wasn't diplomacy that brought down the Berlin Wall, nor was it diplomacy that created the communist state of Cuba.



CubaMark said:


> Sigh. What I regret is that we have a leader who appears to be more interested in boosting his image as a tough-guy, on par with superpower leaders. In reality he and his ministers for defence, international affairs, etc., are jokes in the eyes of anyone who has ever had to deal with them. Harper being aggressive with Putin is laughable. Little megalomaniacs in big britches talking tough will never succeed in making the Russian bear back off. The situation in the Ukraine requires diplomacy, a word that appears to be lacking in the Harper foreign affairs dictionary.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Sighhhhhhhhh. {Matching your coy sigh with a longer one.]
> CM, you only seem to like assertive statements when they come from the "progressive" side of the aisle. It wasn't diplomacy that brought down the Berlin Wall, nor was it diplomacy that created the communist state of Cuba.


*MF:* It's not the message, it's the messenger, and the method of delivery.


----------



## Macfury

That's what I said--you're critical only because you don't approve of the messenger.

QUOTE=CubaMark;1839681]*MF:* It's not the message, it's the messenger, and the method of delivery.[/QUOTE]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

MacGregor on cheaters -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...the-democracy/article21603308/?service=mobile


----------



## BigDL

*"Self Praise is a Very Poor Recommendation" that's what my daddy always said*

"Self Praise Is A Very Poor Recommendation"



CBCNews said:


> Harper's spokesman, Jason MacDonald, said the prime minister was speaking to a group of G20 leaders at a private leaders' retreat on Saturday morning when Putin approached and extended his hand.
> 
> MacDonald said Harper told Putin: "I guess I'll shake your hand but I have only one thing to say to you: You need to get out of Ukraine."
> 
> According to MacDonald, Putin did not respond positively. He didn't provide further details.


 The above quote is tantamount to self praise. How do we know it's even true? My father always said "self praise is a very poor recommendation." 

If I were approached by OGL, I should keep my hands on the small of my back like a well trained speed skater, advise OGL he was not worthy of my hand. Given Stephen Harper's rhetoric he should have done the same to Putin.

So you'll have to forgive my scepticism, a PMO that unable to remember what was "good to go" with Duffy, concocted this fable. Did Putin really even know OGL was in the room?


----------



## Macfury

That isn't even close to self-praise. You've missed the schooner on this one.



BigDL said:


> "Self Praise Is A Very Poor Recommendation"
> 
> The above quote is tantamount to self praise. How do we know it's even true? My father always said "self praise is a very poor recommendation."
> 
> If I were approached by OGL, I should keep my hands on the small of my back like a well trained speed skater, advise OGL he was not worthy of my hand. Given Stephen Harper's rhetoric he should have done the same to Putin.
> 
> So you'll have to forgive my scepticism, a PMO that unable to remember what was "good to go" with Duffy, concocted this fable. Did Putin really even know OGL was in the room?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'd like to see Hairpiece in the ring against the leader of the opposition. Hairpiece would capitulate in round 1.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'd like to see Hairpiece in the ring against the leader of the opposition. Hairpiece would capitulate in round 1.


I'd like to see that myself.

Shiny Pony would be sobbing like a little school girl inside of 30 seconds. "Not the face! Not the face!"

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> I'd like to see that myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Shiny Pony would be sobbing like a little school girl inside of 30 seconds. "Not the face! Not the face!"
> 
> 
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!



He ain't the leader of the opposition. Tsk. Tsk.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He ain't the leader of the opposition. Tsk. Tsk.


He's talking about after the next election, Bozo!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A Hole.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> he ain't the leader of the opposition. Tsk. Tsk.


ssdp


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Does Harper really think anyone takes him seriously?*


Just wanted to ask where you posted your criticisms of the US, Japan and Australia for saying the same thing?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More on the bigot. 

https://plus.google.com/u/0/app/basic/stream/z13lst3a4kueixarm04chn1p4sajwf2wpaw


----------



## Macfury

I'm starting to love the bigot. To be honest, I never paid any attention to him before these EhMac "progressives" started linking to him!


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More on the bigot.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/app/basic/stream/z13lst3a4kueixarm04chn1p4sajwf2wpaw


Brilliant. Now Paul Wells is lying too.

The memo that the Essex Board supplied to Levant ONLY mentions religious objections, and ONLY includes references to Muslim sources. All of the memos that anyone has seen that have any other wording or links to any other material were supplied AFTER Levant pointed this out. Ezra has fully and conclusively proven this several times over. 

Seriously leftards. You got caught lying. Admit your mistake, apologize and move on. These ridiculous attempts to keep covering it up are pathetic.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Del Mastro using tax payer $$$$.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/dean-del-mastro-legal-fees-subsidized-by-canadians-1.2835381


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/11/16/harper-has-been-losing-friends-even-from-his-base/ 

Call it early Hairpiece!


----------



## Macfury

I hear that that Stephen Harper reads this thread everyday and is getting really cheesed about your limpdick challenges, Jimbo!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call it early Hairpiece![/quote]


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> The memo that the Essex Board supplied to Levant ONLY mentions religious objections, and ONLY includes references to Muslim sources.


Did the memo that Levant received say anything about Muslim parents requesting that their children be excused from Remembrance Day ceremonies?

*No.*

Did Levant interpret the presence of links to prominent Muslim-Canadians who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces as evidence that Muslim parents requested such an exclusion?

*Yes.*

Would anyone else with a balanced mind and not burdened by such vicious bigotry make that same assumption?

*Of course not.*

Do the rabid defence of this bigot in the forum at ehMac lower my opinion of humanity in general?

*Oh yeah.*

:-(


----------



## Macfury

One must defend the truth, regardless of its source.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Doyle on the bigot -
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/arts/t...establishment/article21596573/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

Levant only has 5,000 TV viewers, tops. You're spreading the message Kangaroo!


----------



## FeXL

Jeezuz. Did you read the article? It's a good thing this guy writes for the Grope & Flail 'cause that piece flailed all over the place. He wrote lots & said nothing...


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Did the memo that Levant received say anything about Muslim parents requesting that their children be excused from Remembrance Day ceremonies?
> 
> *No.*


Yes. Levant even contacted the school board to confirm that they actually meant what was implied, and they confirmed it several times. Muslim students wanted to be excluded on religious grounds was explicitly and directly stated as the only reason for the exceptions.



> Did Levant interpret the presence of links to prominent Muslim-Canadians who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces as evidence that Muslim parents requested such an exclusion?
> 
> *Yes.*(


No. He asked the school board if that is what they intended, and they told him that it was.



> Would anyone else with a balanced mind and not burdened by such vicious bigotry make that same assumption?
> 
> *Of course not.*


Yes. Levant did what a good journalist should do, he asked the source to clarify exactly what their intent was before he went to air, and then he reported exactly what they told him.



> Do the rabid defence of this bigot in the forum at ehMac lower my opinion of humanity in general?
> 
> *Oh yeah.*


The only bigotry going on here is yours. Stop digging yourself a bigger credibility hole. You got caught lying. Admit it and move on.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Yes. Levant even contacted the school board to confirm that they actually meant what was implied, and they confirmed it several times. Muslim students wanted to be excluded on religious grounds was explicitly and directly stated as the only reason for the exceptions.


I've asked you earlier to provide evidence of this. 

I've just -again, for the umpteenth stupid time - reviewed Ezra's article, the PDF of his producer's email communications with the School Board (which as I noted previously, are interestingly incomplete), the memo and its variations, and the school board representative's appearance on a Sun News programme (transcript) - all documents to which I've linked previously.

None of this supports your version of events. This isn't me being pedantic or ideological. I'm working off of the publicly-available documents and commentary that are available. Do you have access to something the rest of us do not, to support your interpretation of events?


----------



## Macfury

Two for the win!

Retired Mountie Jim Eglinski wins Yellowhead byelection


----------



## SINC

Yeah, bring it on Steve, we can shut down JT an TM for good.


----------



## heavyall

Has any other governing party had this degree of success in by-elections? It's incredible. By-elections are the one place where people who might actually support the governing party in a full national election, won't hesitate to "send a message" because the consequences are virtually nil. The closest thing to "being punished" that the CPC gets is a slight drop in the margin of victory, while still retaining the seat.

Conversely, Trudeau has now had a couple of test runs to show that the support that the polls are claiming is really there, and he can't take a single seat from the Conservatives?


----------



## heavyall

The other side of the other side of the story | Ezra Levant



> My Sun column on Tuesday, called “Lest only some of us forget,” went viral, and for good reason. It was a scoop: A school board that covers 75 schools in Windsor and nearby towns sent a memo telling its principals to allow students to be exempted from attending Remembrance Day celebrations.
> 
> *According to the memo, “Some families may be reluctant to have their children attend your location municipality’s ceremonies. Please note that meaningful alternate activities should be provided at the schools for those families who do not wish their children to participate in any Remembrance Day ceremonies.”
> 
> This was surprising, so we sent questions to the school board, in writing, to confirm the veracity of the memo, and to ask about two Muslim references in the footnotes.
> 
> The school board answered us, also in writing. They confirmed the memo was real, and they told us – twice – that any exemption would be based on “religious accommodation.”
> 
> And that’s what we said: the school board would allow Muslim students to opt out of “any Remembrance Day ceremonies” for religious reasons. We specifically asked about Islam, because that’s what the memo’s footnotes said.
> 
> Our report caused parents to contact the school board, outraged. And so the same school board that had told us, in writing, twice, that the policy was for “religious accommodation,”* hastily put out a new press release.
> 
> They denounced my Sun column as “incredibly disappointing,” accusing me of having “detracted from the solemn observance of Remembrance Day.”
> 
> The problem wasn’t their exemption policy, you see. It was me, getting my facts wrong. *They didn’t deny the memo’s existence, or my word-for-word quote from it* (although they said it also contained footnotes about aboriginal and African-Canadians too, not just Muslims).
> 
> They said the exemption policy was actually “in light of the tragic events in Ottawa and Quebec, we had received some expressions of concern regarding safety for students scheduled to attend public Remembrance Day activities at municipal memorials.”
> 
> *But that wasn’t in their memo to the 75 principals. And it wasn’t in their written explanations to us. And their new version – about avoiding “public” memorials for safety reasons – didn’t square with their policy of exemptions from “any” ceremonies.*
> 
> But it was still a brilliant PR move, for two reasons. The separation of mosque and state is very difficult for most journalists to talk about, out of sheer political correctness. It challenges too many liberal dreams about multiculturalism. Claiming the exemption policy had nothing to do with Islam, but everything to do with safety, was sure to relieve journalists who would have hated writing a story about a school board permitting Muslim separatism.
> 
> *And blaming the Sun – and me in particular – was genius. We are despised by the Media Party, the urban elites at the National Post and the Globe and Mail. All of them instantly accepted the second version of the school board’s story, despite me publicly releasing the memo itself, and my written exchange with the school board.*
> 
> *The superintendent of the school board, Sharon Pyke, eventually came on the Sun News Network and apologized for giving me one version, and telling other media another version.* “I’m sorry for the miscommunication. It was certainly was not our intent at all,” she said. But their intentions seem pretty obvious: to desperately change the public story of their Remembrance Day exemptions policy away from religious accommodations towards “safety.” *But according to Scott Scantlebury, the board’s spokesman, the religious exemption policy is a permanent thing.*
> 
> In the end, the school board claims that no students asked for an exemption. I take public statements from the board with a grain of salt now, but I hope that’s true. If so, it’s a sign that the students of Windsor’s schools are more patriotic, and more cohesive, than the liberal education bureaucrats who preside over them. I was afraid they weren’t – and I’m glad I got that part of my story wrong.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ezra is a bigot


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Ezra is a bigot


Wrong again, just like for the by-elections outcome.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Wrong again, just like for the by-elections outcome.


The limpdick Kangaroo must be crying in his pouch!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Naw. Like the voting shifts in a low turnout. Considering the Closet Party had Byrne in Oshawa and numerous MPs throughout the campaign - they were very worried. As they should be. 

Call an election it'll be goodbye majority. Perhaps better. Hairpiece is a goner soon to become an oil company executive.


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> Conversely, Trudeau has now had a couple of test runs to show that the support that the polls are claiming is really there, and he can't take a single seat from the Conservatives?


Perhaps there aren't as many low information voters in Canada as in the US...


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> The other side of the other side of the story | Ezra Levant


Heavyall, you can post that text as many times as you like - it ain't helping your case. Levant's presentation of his / his producer's communication with the School Board people infers a connection between muslims and the Remembrance Day exemption, when none exists. 

_The school board answered us, also in writing. They confirmed the memo was real, and they told us – twice – that any exemption would be based on “religious accommodation.”

And that’s what we said: the school board would allow Muslim students to opt out of “any Remembrance Day ceremonies” for religious reasons. We specifically asked about Islam, because that’s what the memo’s footnotes said._​
If you read the school board's communication (Scott Scantlebury), rather than Levant's reproduction of it, you'll see that the board representative did not in any way say that Muslim families had requested the opt-out. Yes, Levant et al "specifically asked about Islam" but the school board rep's answer did not in any way refer to Islam or muslims. Levant et al's posing the question here is used to infer a link, when the response from the SB does not lend any support to that supposed link. 

Scantlebury answered SUN's inquiries by noting that a long-standing policy, a "necessary document" that exists to provide exemptions to Remembrance Day events, and that these fall under the category of religious exemptions. He specifically says that this is not related to any particular religious group.

Sharon Pyke's interview reinforced that they received NO communications from parents wanting a religious exemption for their children. The 'calls from muslim families to opt out' is a fantasy created by Levant.

As for Pyke's (the School Board's) 'apology' for the 'miscommunication' - SUN is trumpeting this as some kind of evidence of wrongdoing or admission that Levant's prejudiced allegations hold some weight, when in my reading of it, Pyke et al are essentially saying,_ 'we're sorry you guys are too damned stupid / bigoted to present this issue in a way that reflects reality'._

They can't say that, of course, as public representatives of the School Board. But you know they're thinking it.

I honestly cannot believe that you're dragging this out and continuing to side with Levant on this issue, when it is so clearly a bigoted fabrication from a man who is Canada's leader in fomenting racial hatred.


----------



## Macfury

What race would that be?



CubaMark said:


> ...fomenting racial hatred.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> What race would that be?


Okay - substitute "non-white conservative citizen" for "racial". My brain is getting tired of dealing with this issue.


----------



## MacGuiver

Racist is the label the left tries to stick on anyone that doesn't agree with them or questions their dogma of political correctness. Ezra doesn't tip toe around PC issues like most of the mainstream media and left wing politicians do.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> Racist is the label the left tries to stick on anyone that doesn't agree with them or questions their dogma of political correctness. Ezra doesn't tip toe around PC issues like most of the mainstream media and left wing politicians do.


Yep.


----------



## Macfury

Got a question for you CM: If everything Levant says about the Essex school board is true, would you have a problem with specifically excusing Muslims from Remembrance Day observations ?



CubaMark said:


> Okay - substitute "non-white conservative citizen" for "racial". My brain is getting tired of dealing with this issue.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Yep.


One thing with the Left is that they often suffer from the racism of "lowered expections" of the very people they claim to be championing.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Yep. A prime example is voter ID, where they believe the "victims" would not have the wherewithal or motivation to get an ID card.



MacGuiver said:


> One thing with the Left is that they often suffer from the racism of "lowered expections" of the very people they claim to be championing.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Yep. A prime example is voter ID, where they believe the "victims" would not have the wherewithal or motivation to get an ID card.


Or refusals to look into the books of Native Band leadership where money flows into reserves but living conditions remain dire. Ezra was branded racist for exposing Theresa Spence's gross mismanagement and financial corruption but how do you really help the residents of her reserve if political correctness bars you from exposing a major source of their peril?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This just in. soon to be Republican controlled Senate rejects Hairpiece pipeline:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/18/keystone-xl-pipeline-senate?CMP=edit_2221


----------



## Macfury

Kangaroo, the senate doesn't become Republican until January. You are speaking from ignorance.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This just in. Republican controlled Senate rejects Hairpiece pipeline:
> 
> Senate rejects Keystone XL pipeline bill | US news | The Guardian


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yes I realized that after the post. Oh well we'll have to wait for the veto in the new year.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> I honestly cannot believe that you're dragging this out and continuing to side with Levant on this issue, when it is so clearly a bigoted fabrication from a man who is Canada's leader in fomenting racial hatred.


You need to stop lying. This is really getting old.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Naw. Like the voting shifts in a low turnout. Considering the Closet Party had Byrne in Oshawa and numerous MPs throughout the campaign - they were very worried. As they should be.
> 
> Call an election it'll be goodbye majority. Perhaps better. Hairpiece is a goner soon to become an oil company executive.


Why exactly did you change your avatar once again let alone your moniker a couple of times now?

You seem to be one shifty fellow, Jimbo, skippy, stink, (stank and stunk).

You possess all the qualities that you seem to think the current government has, yet you do worse in terms of deliberate deceit here.

And somehow we are expected to respect you???

What a joke!

Based on your posting record you seem to have Dissociative identity disorder (DID). Until you get that condition worked out you may want to consider taking a hiatus from posting here.

Just to add, there are no longer mods here, you can safely revert back to your original identity as Jimbo. No one here is going to complain to a "higher power" as none exists here any more. We just police ourselves now and we all know who you really are so it is well past the time to time to give up the ghost.

The "scaredy cats" left here a long time ago and formed their own forum where they could feel comfortable just pumping each other up rather than dealing with the real world where people of divergent opinions actually disagree with them and they would have to deal with it.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> You need to stop lying. This is really getting old.


F.F.S. - we're having an open conversation here. Where the hell do you see me lying? I've asked you to provide evidence of your position and I've asked you to apologize for calling me a liar. Now you've done it again.

Is this a stupid schoolyard debate where the last person to utter a sound wins the argument?

*Apologize* or *prove me wrong*. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Macfury

The information provided proves that the Essex board was offering alternate activities for Muslim students on Remembrance day. So you need to apologize, CM. Can't have it both ways.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> F.F.S. - we're having an open conversation here. Where the hell do you see me lying? I've asked you to provide evidence of your position and I've asked you to apologize for calling me a liar. Now you've done it again.
> 
> Is this a stupid schoolyard debate where the last person to utter a sound wins the argument?
> 
> *Apologize* or *prove me wrong*. You can't have it both ways.


You've had it proven to you several times over. You've even quoted it. You are intentionally saying something that you know is not true. Both about what Levant said AND about what I have posted. If you don't like being called a liar, there's a simple solution: stop doing it.


----------



## CubaMark

*How People's Political Passions Distort Their Sense of Reality*


----------



## CubaMark

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

The guy offering argument services is you, CubaMark!

You didn't answer my earlier question. If you believed that the Essex Board had offered exemption to Muslim students regarding Remembrance Day observations, would you see a problem with it?


----------



## CubaMark

Sorry - not biting. When you can't defend your position, your natural tendency is to attack the person, and I won't have it.

Not that I need to express a personal opinion - the School Board has a religious exemption policy, developed long before this issue arose. My opinion is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I continue to be baffled at your & heavyall's inability to see the facts before your face. 

Heavyall: I'm disappointed in your continued assertion that I am lying. You may accuse me of having a different interpretation of events, but lying implies intent - and that is extremely offensive.


----------



## Macfury

I would agree, CM--you're being obtuse, but not lying. 

The fact that you have no opinion on any Essex policy, however, speaks volumes. Even if Levant could prove his case to 100% instead of 99.99% you might just turn around and say: "Who cares, there's nothing wrong with the policy anyway."


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I would agree, CM--you're being obtuse, but not lying.
> 
> The fact that you have no opinion on any Essex policy, however, speaks volumes. Even if Levant could prove his case to 100% instead of 99.99% you might just turn around and say: "Who cares, there's nothing wrong with the policy anyway."


That's a ridiculous statement. Would you be as dismissive of a family of Quakers who request their children not attend Remembrance Day ceremonies?

I'm far more comfortable with being labelled "obtuse" than a liar, though I disagree with the label.

From what I can gather, the position of HeavyAll (and yourself?) is that the memo received by Levant had, at the end of the document, links to information on Muslim-Canadian soldiers, while the link distributed to the public included others (African-Canadian, Asian-Canadian, Indigenous). And that's the crux of the issue - is this correct?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> That's a ridiculous statement. Would you be as dismissive of a family of Quakers who request their children not attend Remembrance Day ceremonies?


Yes.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> That's a ridiculous statement. Would you be as dismissive of a family of Quakers who request their children not attend Remembrance Day ceremonies?
> 
> I'm far more comfortable with being labelled "obtuse" than a liar, though I disagree with the label.
> 
> From what I can gather, the position of HeavyAll (and yourself?) is that the memo received by Levant had, at the end of the document, links to information on Muslim-Canadian soldiers, while the link distributed to the public included others (African-Canadian, Asian-Canadian, Indigenous). And that's the crux of the issue - is this correct?





Macfury said:


> Yes.


Interesting. One of my grad students taking my online course this semester wrote in about a student who had a note from a parent requesting that he be excused from Remembrance Day celebrations this year. His father was a local candidate for the Libertarian Party, and the father sent along part of the Libertarian Party platform notes to justify this request. It noted that 

"Foreign Policy

The Libertarian Party of Canada stands for a foreign policy of honest trade, peace, and diplomacy. As such, the Libertarian Party would:
•Immediately withdraw Canadian armed forces from international conflicts. The Libertarian party strongly opposes the foreign interventions of the past 13 years".

Macfury, would you be dismissive of this parent's request to have his son not attend Remembrance Day services in the school? The Libertarian Party of Canada has this included in their platform for the past dozen years or so. Quaker pacifism goes back to the late 1600's.

FYI, the school granted the father's request.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Macfury, would you be dismissive of this parent's request to have his son not attend Remembrance Day services in the school? The Libertarian Party of Canada has this included in their platform for the past dozen years or so. Quaker pacifism goes back to the late 1600's.
> 
> FYI, the school granted the father's request.


I would support a parent in that position if there was some sort of event glorifying military action. However, attending Remembrance Day ceremonies does not indemnify the kid or indicate support for war. 

Likewise, Libertarians don't support socialized health care, but I would not see that as a reason to excuse a student from being required to study Tommy Douglas. 

I would not grant this request.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

9 months for Conservative fraud.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Call an election Hairpiece


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Will send "pope soap on a rope" to Del Mastro upon determining his final sentence.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The dickens you say -
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/a...ecurity-gaps-says-ex-jtf2-commander-1.2840770


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> 9 months for Conservative fraud.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election Hairpiece





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Will send "pope soap on a rope" to Del Mastro upon determining his final sentence.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The dickens you say -
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/a...ecurity-gaps-says-ex-jtf2-commander-1.2840770


Are you a member of the KKK?

If not you may want to consider joining. I suspect you will find like minded people there.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Lol!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I would not grant this request.


Neither would I.

_________

The mere fact that he can even make such a request without recrimination was made possible by people who died defending this country & the freedoms & rights contained herein & enjoyed by all Canadians.

A little respect is in order...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I would support a parent in that position if there was some sort of event glorifying military action. However, attending Remembrance Day ceremonies does not indemnify the kid or indicate support for war.
> 
> Likewise, Libertarians don't support socialized health care, but I would not see that as a reason to excuse a student from being required to study Tommy Douglas.
> 
> I would not grant this request.


We are in agreement here. However, you need to be careful, Macfury, your liberal leanings are showing.  Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Lol!


I am serious.

Your willingness to condemn an entire group of people based on the actions of an individual or a small group of people is the same. You want to string them all up just based on their affiliation... it really does not matter if it is based on skin colour, religion or political affiliation, etc...

In the end it is just prejudice, bigotry and ignorance.

Sounds like the KKK to me.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sona statement-


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sona sentence-


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. From the support the troops file -

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...ns-affairs-since-2006-documents/#.VG2auiY8KJJ


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The pile is getting higher and smellier -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...ng-to-pile-up/article21664638/?service=mobile


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The pile is getting higher and smellier -
> 
> Try It Now Politics Insider - The Globe and Mail


Great link, enjoyed that one.


----------



## Macfury

You didn't miss anything SINC--it was just an article about the Liberals' anger over JT's inability to deliver the seats in those by-elections.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> You didn't miss anything SINC--it was just an article about the Liberals' anger over JT's inability to deliver the seats in those by-elections.


Wrong again. It's about CPC corruption.

Conservative elections-law breaches starting to pile up

Nine months in jail. Michael Sona, a former Conservative campaign worker, will get that for trying to deceive and dissuade Guelph voters from casting ballots by placing misleading robocalls. The sentence is supposed to be a deterrent.

It is a relatively stiff sentence for an elections offence, which typically net fines, or probation. The judge decided Mr. Sona’s “moral blameworthiness” is high. This is a serious crime.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government has always insisted that Mr. Sona is an outlier, that this is an isolated case. But there have been quite a number of isolated cases now.

The party was convicted in the in-and-out scandal, a cabinet minister resigned over egregious campaign-finance violations, and Peterborough MP Dean Del Mastro, who resigned this month, was convicted of covering up election overspending. He too faces possible jail time.

In Mr. Sona’s case, there was always the suggestion – including from both prosecution and defence in the trial – that the young campaign worker, now 26, didn’t act alone when he misdirected voters to a false balloting location during the 2011 election. But no one else was charged, let alone convicted. An example was made of Mr. Sona.

Mr. Harper’s government says it is not to blame, and suggests culprits deserve to have the book thrown at them. Mr. Harper’s communications director, Jason MacDonald, said voter suppression is a serious crime “and those responsible should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.”

“As we’ve said all along, the Conservative Party ran a clean and ethical campaign. The party was not involved with this conduct that was subject of the case in Guelph.”

By party, Mr. MacDonald apparently means the party leadership, because Mr. Sona was a Conservative campaign worker when the crime occurred, and when the allegations surfaced, he was an aide to Conservative MP Eve Adams.

Distancing has been a key tactic for the government when these elections-law breaches have come up.

When Mr. Del Mastro was convicted, Mr. MacDonald noted the MP had left the Conservative caucus months earlier, when he was charged. Of course, no one at Conservative Party HQ told Mr. Del Mastro to illegally overspend during the 2008 election campaign and ask for backdated invoices to cover it up. But he was a Conservative MP, and later, the PM’s parliamentary secretary.

Politically, the Conservatives have so far wrestled these cases down to minimally damaging one-offs. But the one-offs are starting to pile up.

Remember Peter Penashue? He was Stephen Harper’s intergovernmental affairs minister after the 2011 election. He was dogged for months by allegations he took illegal donations and free flights and overspent the campaign limit. The Conservatives said little.

But Mr. Penashue finally resigned in 2013, paid back $47,666 in illegal donations – more than the total amount spent during the campaign by his Liberal rival, Todd Russell, whom he bested by 79 votes – and then ran for re-election. He lost.

You could count them as isolated incidents. But not the first big one, the in-and-out scandal from the 2006 election, when senior party officials created a scheme to overspend the national campaign limit by transferring money to local campaigns, and then have them pay for national-campaign advertising.

The Conservatives insisted it was legal, and other parties had done similar things. The party eventually pleaded guilty, in 2012, but by then it was old news. Even the Conservatives didn’t really believe that the in-and-out scheme was within the spirit of elections law. They just thought they’d found a loophole.

When Elections Canada officials questioned it, the Conservatives felt it was unfair, believing Liberals had played dirty pool for years. They were really offended. Perhaps that has nothing to do with the later cases. But it didn’t set a tone of election-law probity.

Perhaps now, the Conservatives would do better to express a little shame for the stain on their reputation, and vow to prevent repeats. Their supporters won’t be reassured by the sight of their party workers going to jail.

Now Mr. Sona, an overzealous young party worker who decided it was okay to play telephone tag with voters’ rights, will pay a stiff price. It’s hard not to feel sorry for a young man facing jail. But it’s clear a deterrent is needed.


----------



## screature

:yawn:

But I will congratulate you though, for once you took the effort to write something original.

Now just keep it up and maybe, just maybe, you can gain some credibility here. 

I can't speak for others though and how they feel.


----------



## Macfury

I think it was an unattributed quote--but still more effort than usually presented.



screature said:


> :yawn:
> 
> But I will congratulate you though, for once you took the effort to write something original.
> 
> Now just keep it up and maybe, just maybe, you can gain some credibility here.
> 
> I can't speak for others though and how they feel.


----------



## SINC

Looks to me to be beyond the writing talent of the Kang. I think it is a copy and paste of a Grope and Flail story, without due credit as well.


----------



## screature

Just to add skippy you didn't address this:



screature said:


> I am serious.
> 
> Your willingness to condemn an entire group of people based on the actions of an individual or a small group of people is the same. You want to string them all up just based on their affiliation... it really does not matter if it is based on skin colour, religion or political affiliation, etc...
> 
> In the end it is just prejudice, bigotry and ignorance.
> 
> Sounds like the KKK to me.


Why not?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Looks to me to be beyond the writing talent of the Kang. I think it is a copy and paste of a Grope and Flail story, without due credit as well.


I inserted the paragraph starting "Remember Peter Penashue..." in a search engine. Only hit was the Grope & Flail.

Good call.


----------



## heavyall

The Sona affair reached a conclusion I think we all knew was going to happen many months ago. The one thing I find somewhat interesting is how much of a double standard there is depending on what party you're from. Both an NDP and a Liberal MP were charged for their illegal robocalls in the last election, and all they got was a small fine. For Sona to get nine months when there was no physical evidence against him is really unbalanced.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. 

http://o.canada.com/news/politics-a...tencing-adds-to-aura-of-disreputable-politics


----------



## BigDL

*The Conservatives a sad lot*



heavyall said:


> The Sona affair reached a conclusion I think we all knew was going to happen many months ago. The one thing I find somewhat interesting is how much of a double standard there is depending on what party you're from. Both an NDP and a Liberal MP were charged for their illegal robocalls in the last election, and all they got was a small fine. For Sona to get nine months when there was no physical evidence against him is really unbalanced.


A violation found by the CRTC is not the same as found guilty of an act of fraud against all Canadians by Elections Canada.

Not once, not twice but three times, found guilty! The Conservatives and only the Conservatives have either pleaded guilty or have been found guilty of breaking the Elections Act. 

And by the way OGL's government is the only Government that has been found in contempt of Parliament. The only Government in the Commonwealth in the history of Westminster Parliamentary tradition...*IN ALL THE WORLD*. tptptptp


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> A violation found by the CRTC is not the same as found guilty of *an act of fraud against all Canadians* by Elections Canada.
> 
> Not once, not twice but three times, found guilty! The Conservatives and only the Conservatives have either pleaded guilty or have been found guilty of breaking the Elections Act.
> 
> And by the way OGL's government is the only Government that has been found in contempt of Parliament. The only Government in the Commonwealth in the history of Westminster Parliamentary tradition...*IN ALL THE WORLD*. tptptptp


Since when do all Canadians live in Guelph?! 

Give me a break from your hyperbole and falsehoods. 

Uhmm...

Well there is this...

Ontario Liberals found in contempt of Parliament over documents related to cancelled generating stations

And I am quite certain there are other examples. It took me like 30 seconds to find this one.

Don't make spurious claims based only on your opinion and not actual fact. Oh but wait, I am talking to BigDL, so it should be expected.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Since when do all Canadians live in Guelph?!
> 
> Give a break from your hyperbole and falsehoods.


How's about In and Out Scandal the one from Conservative HQ that the Conservatives pleaded guilty to, was right across the Country of Canada or have you blocked that reprehensible act from your mind.

Peter Penashue not mentioned earlier as one of the guilty, (at least his actions of resigning were tantamount to pleading guilty) resigned his seat to get elections Canada off his legal case, for violating the Elections Act, his verdict came from his constituents. 

When Conservatives and only Conservatives, are winning by cheating the Elections Act, it offends all reasonable and decent Canadians.


----------



## Macfury

They are winning by getting more votes than your party, BigDL.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> They are winning by getting more votes than your party, BigDL.


When Conservatives and only Conservatives, are winning by cheating the Elections Act, *it offends all reasonable and decent Canadians.*

So, once again, your rejoinder speaks volumes!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> How's about *In and Out Scandal the one from Conservative HQ that the Conservatives pleaded guilty to*, was right across the Country of Canada or have you blocked that reprehensible act from your mind.
> 
> Peter Penashue not mentioned earlier as one of the guilty, (at least his actions of resigning were tantamount to pleading guilty) resigned his seat to get elections Canada off his legal case, for violating the Elections Act, his verdict came from his constituents.
> 
> *When Conservatives and only Conservatives, are winning by cheating the Elections Act, it offends all reasonable and decent Canadians.*


The *Conservatives* didn't plead guilty to anything. 3 men did. They convinced the EDAs involved it was within the rules and so they participated. 3 men, not the *Conservatives* as a whole as you want to represent it.



> through the campaign accounts of *67* local candidates.


National Post

67 out of 308 seats does not make *all of Canada* as much you want to continue down your hyperbolic line of reasoning.

Do you know how much money was involved with the In and Out? I do, $1.3M, divided by 67 that equals roughly $19, 403 per riding. Do really think that kind of money can buy an election? Hardly.

Peter Penashue, 1 person.

Now let us look at the NDP... illegal satellite offices and mailings that broke the rules of Parliament worth more than $1M to Canada Post... Maybe if the NDP just followed the rules it wouldn't be necessary to for Canada Post to end door-to-door delivery.  

Obviously not but the hypocrisy is palpable.

:lmao:

The reason why the Conservatives won had absolutely nothing to do with the transgressions of a few men. They won because the alternatives sucked.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Since when do all Canadians live in Guelph?!
> 
> Give me a break from your hyperbole and falsehoods.
> 
> Uhmm...
> 
> Well there is this...
> 
> Ontario Liberals found in contempt of Parliament over documents related to cancelled generating stations


 No hyperbole and no falsehoods.

Only OGL's Conservatives were found not only to have a “prima facie” case of being in Contempt of Parliament, OGL's Conservative Government was the only Government EVER to be found *GUILTY Of BEING IN CONTEMPT Of PARLIAMENT.*

"On the face of it" the Ontario Liberals were worthy of a "trail." When were the Ontario Liberals also found guilty after said trial? Even after an election.

How's your google engine doing with the finding of a Government being *guilty* of Contempt of Parliament?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> No hyperbole and no falsehoods.
> 
> Only OGL's Conservatives were found not only to have a “prima facie” case of being in Contempt of Parliament, OGL's Conservative Government was the only Government EVER to be found *GUILTY Of BEING IN CONTEMPT Of PARLIAMENT.*
> 
> "On the face of it" the Ontario Liberals were worthy of a "trail." When were the Ontario Liberals also found guilty after said trial? Even after an election.
> 
> How's your google engine doing with the finding of a Government being *guilty* of Contempt of Parliament?


So are you saying that you are basing your claim only on Google searches....?

How lame.

Show me where, give me a link, where this government is the only government to be voted to be in contempt of Parliament. I have already proven to you that you are wrong and ye you persist.

First of there was no trial, so no one was found guilty of anything,

There was a prima facie ruling form the Speaker of the House on an Opposition Point of Privileged and then MPs voted on it in a minority government situation.

Do you really not think (some times I don't think you do) that the Opposition voted in favour of the motion because they wanted to have an election... how gullible are you.

The Speaker left it up to the House of Commons to decide in a vote that if the Opposition decided to bring down the Government they could and did.

The irony is that *they* brought about an election that turned a minority Conservative Government into being a majority. :lmao: A serious and stupid miscalculation on the Opposition's part.


----------



## Macfury

As Big DL is so fond of saying, the party itself was never found to be_ mens rea_--guilty of intention to commit a crime. Without this, only the individuals involved can be found guilty.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. 

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...ently_give_justin_trudeau_a_leg_up_hbert.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Which greasy oil company will Hairpiece join in 2016?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. He's a goner. Call the election hairpiece -

http://o.canada.com/news/maher-harpers-on-thin-ice-snubbing-the-premier-of-ontario


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Which greasy oil company will Hairpiece join in 2016?


Your avatar really sucks and blows at the same time. I preferred the Jazz oriented one that you started with Jimbo.

Since we all now who are and your many personas why not just come clean? We all know who you are.

I created a persona in another place related to this one and was found out in short order, I fessed up, and have stopped posting there ever since.

Why can't you do it here? Do you not have the balls to do it?

Sometimes admitting you are wrong can make you grow intellectually. 

Are you so arrogant as to say that you have not committed deceit here and disrespected those with whom you disagree?


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. He's a goner. Call the election hairpiece


Oh, wah. The Prime Minister won't talk to me. Boo freaking hoo.

Why should the rest of Canada be on the hook for fiscal election promises that Wynne can't keep? If the Ontario Liberals hadn't killed manufacturing in the province in the first place, not the least of which has been the electricity/renewable energy boondoggles, that $641 million transfer payment shortfall would look pretty damn tiny.

How many billions have they pissed away?

Cry me a river...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Your avatar really sucks and blows at the same time. I preferred the Jazz oriented one that you started with Jimbo.


Jimbo was banned. I don't think he can get it back.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Jimbo was banned. I don't think he can get it back.


Probably so but he could still change his avatar. It is really lame.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

That gag is so damned old, I'm surprised it isn't illegal.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Hmmmm. 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...ral-party-leader-offers-advice-young-liberals


----------



## Macfury

Ignatieff was a self-obsessed fool--and a loser.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Hmmmm.
> 
> Canada's Former Liberal Party Leader Offers Advice to Young Liberals | New Republic


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sure he was. Or is. 

Nasty. Like Hairpiece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

T


----------



## SINC

Justin Trudeau jokes about war and Canada’s military


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

That cartoon knowing Mosher, is about the need to unclog the mess Hairpiece has left behind. 

Call an election early please.


----------



## Macfury

Tax cuts on the way! A gift to you from Stephen Harper!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election early please.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Cam Clarke from the Globe reporting. Looks like things are shaping up for a Con free zone east of Ontario in 2015. Call an election.

*Bill Casey’s comeback is bad news for Harper*

Stephen Harper must feel like a ghost is returning to haunt him. It’s been years since Bill Casey was a thorn in his side.

He’s one of the few Conservative MPs who clashed publicly with Mr. Harper. Now he’s coming back as a Liberal.

Mr. Harper booted the former Nova Scotia MP out of the Conservative caucus in 2007 for voting against his own party’s budget because it unilaterally altered the Atlantic Accords – and that made Mr. Casey an icon in his home province.

As an independent, Mr. Casey ended up in remote backbenches, next to a new Liberal MP named Justin Trudeau. When Mr. Casey quit politics, he kept in touch. “Whenever I got upset, I rattled off an e-mail to him. And he rattled one back. And that’s been going on for about six years,” Mr. Casey said in an interview.

Mr. Casey’s comeback is bad news for Mr. Harper. In Atlantic Canada, Mr. Casey brings bad memories for Conservatives. It’s hard to target an icon. And the Liberals will hope he serves as a symbol in the rest of the country, too, as they seek to portray Mr. Harper as an autocrat.

Mr. Casey had been a veteran Tory, first elected in 1988. He stayed with the merged Conservatives in 2004 when some Atlantic Canada Red Tory MPs walked away. But his showdown came when Mr. Harper undid a signed deal between Nova Scotia and Ottawa over oil-and-gas revenues, a change inserted into the 2007 budget. Mr. Casey voted against it, and was expelled.

Mr. Casey was hailed in his home province and re-elected as an independent. Some of the Atlantic Canada anger over the accords still echoes now. You can feel it in Friday’s editorial in the St. John’s Telegram, which recalled how Newfoundland Conservative MPs of the day “all backed their prime minister.” The Telegram noted approvingly: “[Mr.] Casey decided his allegiance was with his province.”

His return as a Liberal is another blow for the Conservatives in Atlantic Canada, where they’re already far behind in polls. If Mr. Casey wins the Liberal nomination, he’ll run against Cumberland-Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley Conservative MP Scott Armstrong – and Mr. Armstrong’s Conservative riding president has already jumped ship to Mr. Casey.

The Conservatives have taken shots at Mr. Casey. Industry Minister James Moore tweeted that he won’t fit with Liberals because he’s pro-life – but Mr. Casey said he’s pro-choice, and voted against a Mulroney government abortion bill he said restricted abortions. He once voted against gay marriage, but happily admits he’s changed view, saying he’s learned since.

He was on the left of the Conservatives, but felt like MPs didn’t have a say, anyway, he said. He recalled sitting on a Commons committee considering a motion against cluster munitions, and receiving a note instructing Conservative MPs to vote against. “We’d never talked about it,” he said. “I wrote back, ‘I don’t like cluster bombs.’”

The “mission” that motivated his comeback – at 69, five years after leaving politics, and surviving a battle with cancer – is restoring the role of MPs, he said.

He said he’s tired of seeing questions in Parliament rebuffed with partisan attacks, and MPs told how to vote without discussion. Even MPs’ statements before Question Period are now party-scripted attacks (two New Brunswick MPs read attacks on him this week.) He rails against omnibus bills, packed full of hundreds of disparate items, which don’t allow an MP to hold government to account on each. Mr. Casey insists that, to his surprise, people seem interested in those issues.

But in the past those inside-Ottawa issues have not really motivated many voters. Still, the Liberals like the narrative: Mr. Casey promotes the idea that MPs can’t bring local views to Ottawa because Mr. Harper doesn’t listen.

And the Conservatives might find that Mr. Casey is a hard man to attack. He’s not a hard-nose. He responds with respectful compliments. He said he was relieved Mr. Moore had no better shot than his abortion tweet because “he’s a really smart guy.” He won’t say a bad word against the Conservative MP he’ll try to unseat, Mr. Armstrong – who used to be Mr. Casey’s riding president.

“I have a lot of respect for Scott Armstrong. I just don’t think he can do his job,” Mr. Casey said. “I know for a fact he can’t.”


----------



## Macfury

Yawn.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Stick that in your pipeline hairpiece. Call an election. 

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news..._legacy_stephen_harper_had_in_mind_hbert.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey it looks like wildrose is imploding out in Alberta.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. ******* divide. 

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10409728


----------



## Macfury

Unlike the promise of their founding, Wildrose is too far to the left on many issues. This represents a shift to the right.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Stick that in your pipeline hairpiece. Call an election.


Guess Ontario & Quebec would rather that Warren Buffett make a couple billion dollars yearly off of rail tanker fees instead of them having jobs. Employment Insurance must be too cushy.

Go figure...


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. ******* divide.


Hmmm, interesting. Donovan is my MLA. Have to give him a call.

We've spoken in the past about the direction Wild Rose is heading. I've posted about this before but, at a convention last year, Danielle Smith noted that she believed in AGW. I told him flat out I can't support a political party that believes that claptrap. He noted that he felt the party was moving too far to the left & leaving the grass roots supporters who put them where they were. I wonder how this move reconciles with that sentiment.

Reading the article you linked, I have no issue with the equity statement Wild Rose adopted. It covers everyone just fine. I see no point in additional coverage for specific groups.

However, as to your observation, both MLA's moved from the right to the right. Not like the Liberals/NDP gain anything from this. As a matter of fact, it makes the Conservatives stronger.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Justin Trudeau jokes about war and Canada’s military


No doubt. In this regard he is like his father.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Stick that in your pipeline *hairpiece*. Call an election.
> 
> http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news..._legacy_stephen_harper_had_in_mind_hbert.html


It is quite clear that Stephen Harper does not wear a hairpiece of any kind...

And what exactly do you have against bald/ing men/women who choose to wear a "wig" to feel better about themselves? 

Inquiring minds want to know.

I guess this is just another form of bigotry on your part...

Do you never tire of making yourself and the people/party that you support (via guilt by association) look bad?

It seems you are a party of 1, maybe 2, 3 tops. Even among your ilk I suspect... but then again maybe not, there are plenty of hypocrites on the left and I have met many of them over the years... family ties included.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Doesn't get better than this - turf 'em in 2015:

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...ate-ends-up-embarrassing-tories/#.VHPNqiY8KJK


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

From the support the troops file - especially when you're bombing someone. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/f...readiness-days-before-ottawa-attack-1.2847552


----------



## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Doesn't get better than this - turf 'em in 2015:
> 
> Tory sting operation ends up catching Tories | National Newswatch


That is a good tactic actually. Hang them with their own words. If they didn't say such ridiculous things, there would be nothing to secretly record.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like the Tories didn't catch the Tories either. That's a bit of a bogus headline.



heavyall said:


> That is a good tactic actually. Hang them with their own words. If they didn't say such ridiculous things, there would be nothing to secretly record.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLfbp-HEylU


----------



## Macfury

That's not how you link YouTube. 



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLfbp-HEylU


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More from the support the troops file -

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...health-benefits-auditor-says/article21745834/


----------



## Macfury

Give Stephen Harper another majority!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yet more again from the support the troops file. Call an election hairpiece. You've blown this constituency. 

Let's fatten them up with timbits and crappy coffee with visits from Don Cherry for foto ops and then drop em like stones -


http://o.canada.com/news/national/den-tandt-canadian-veterans-deserve-better#.VHUDTzgr8dI.twitter


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's a man with little to hide. Get brave Hairpiece.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Here's a man with little to hide. Get brave Hairpiece.
> View attachment 51249


You are delusional.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Take stock Hairpiece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bring him back as Minister of Jetskis. Just make him a senator first. bahaha.


----------



## Macfury

Why are you making fun of this man's need for a hairpiece?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Here's a man with little to hide. Get brave Hairpiece.
> View attachment 51249


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Why are you making fun of this man's need for a hairpiece?



He's fine. Looks butch...no?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He's fine. Looks butch...no?


Only you know your taste in men, Jimbo.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'll defer to the wild rosers on that one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What was that movie called?

Midnight Cowboy? No. 
Buckin Broncos? No
Slocum hill? No

Damnation!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hairpiece comes out of the closet?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

For what it's worth he's reversed course on gay marriage. There's some fine you tube footage on a statement to the family coalition available if you so desire.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Support the timbits vets.


----------



## Macfury

Tax cuts coming soon!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Goner. Just like yer buddy Hudak. Remember your right to work prediction? bahaha.


----------



## Macfury

Never thought Hudak would win. However, once Wynne ruins what remains of Ontario's once-proud economy, right to work will be welcomed with open arms!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Goner. Just like yer buddy Hudak. Remember your right to work prediction? bahaha.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 51305


Jimbo:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nice. No hairpiece.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Jimbo:


Indeed! Even from that guy...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Indeed he's not hiding under a rug.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

I can't believe someone bothered to copyright that material. This kind of intellectual weakness is typical of the left.


----------



## Macfury

JT slumps as Liberals lose ground to Greens--looks like a Conservative win in 2015!

Justin Trudeau's unloved Liberals drop in polls - Politics - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep sure. Call an election.


----------



## Macfury

That's about the most impotent battle cry ever, Jimbo. Hold your horses. The election is coming in 2015 following more tax cuts and gutting of social infrastructure.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep sure. Call an election.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good luck with that. Hairpiece is a deadman walking.


----------



## Macfury

You seem to be really afraid of what a "dead man" can do in only 11 months.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Good luck with that. Hairpiece is a deadman walking.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Lots can happen of course. But at best they'll be reduced to minority status. They were never fit for a majority and they've proven that in spades. 

Call an election.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Only Hairpiece knows for sure -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...9664/?service=mobile&cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bigot pays. 

http://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/mobile/...an-lawyer-80-000-in-defamation-suit-1.2123047


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More on bigot -

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...o-man-he-defamed-as-illiberal-islamic-fascist


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And yet more bigot -

http://frankmag.ca/2014/11/ezra-and-brians-execrable-adventure/


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bigot pays.


This is the story you linked to:


> A nursing German Shepherd mix found roaming Saskatoon streets will soon be reunited with her puppies.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> This is the story you linked to:


*For those wondering what the previous bunch of posts are all about...*

*Sun News host Ezra Levant ordered to pay $80K in libel suit*










_An Ontario judge who heard a defamation lawsuit against Sun News Network host Ezra Levant ruled Thursday that the controversial media personality libelled a Saskatchewan lawyer in a series of blog posts the judge said were "motivated by malice."

Justice Wendy Matheson ordered Levant to pay $80,000 in damages to Khurrum Awan and remove "defamatory words" about the man from his website within 15 days.

"I find that the defendant's dominant motive in these blog posts was ill-will, and that his repeated failure to take even basic steps to check his facts showed a reckless disregard for the truth,"_

(TorontoStar)​
*IN other words, Ezra Levant is a lying snake - the court has spoken.*


----------



## Macfury

I'm glad the mother and her puppies will be reunited. It's very cold in Saskatoon.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> This is the story you linked to:





Macfury said:


> I'm glad the mother and her puppies will be reunited. It's very cold in Saskatoon.


Will you be digging deeply into your pockets to help a favourite cause?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hairpiece to vets : "yuk yuk yuk"!

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...next-50-years/article21821944/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

I always give to support homeless animals.



BigDL said:


> Will you be digging deeply into your pockets to help a favourite cause?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *For those wondering what the previous bunch of posts are all about...*


Read the ruling and you'll see why Levant will win an appeal.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More standing up for the troops from Hairpiece -

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/veterans-funding-not-as-advertised-opposition-mps-say-1.2853818


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What?!?!

More corruption for Hairpiece? The dickens you say. -

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...received-25k-from-snc-lavalin-execs-1.2125096


----------



## Macfury

Hold your horses, tax cuts are coming!


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What?!?!
> 
> More corruption for Hairpiece? The dickens you say. -
> 
> Cabinet minister's riding may have received $25K from SNC-Lavalin execs | CTV News





Macfury said:


> Hold your horses, tax cuts are coming!


How does tax cuts absolve Conservatives' malfeasance? Please explain.


----------



## Macfury

All governments are responsible for some malfeasance. This is petty stuff.

The tax cuts would not be possible if the government heeded Jimbo's impotent call for an early election.



BigDL said:


> How does tax cuts absolve Conservatives' malfeasance? Please explain.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

If you're going to be critical Jimbo, be clever. No wonder the left is seen as a bunch of dour unhappy people.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

🙈🙊🙉


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

He's still just a bigot to me - http://www.thebeaverton.com/national/item/1673-snot-nosed-idiot-with-small-penis-loses-libel-case


----------



## Macfury

Levant's show has 5,000 viewers max--the left is his press agent!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The bigot should be jailed. Repeat offender.


----------



## Macfury

Keep increasing Levant's web presence, Skip! 

Here's his web site: Ezra Levant



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The bigot should be jailed. Repeat offender.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Revoke their broadcast license too. Fringe perspective of bigots should lose their pathetic pulpit.


----------



## Macfury

Here, here! The left is all about freedom!

Ezra Levant



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Revoke their broadcast license too. Fringe perspective of bigots should lose their pathetic pulpit.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

He'll look good in the cell beside Sona in between Del Mastro. Not to mention Duffy, Wallin and Brazeau. 

Yep 2015 looks bright for Hairpiece.


----------



## Macfury

Jail them all--enemies of the left don't deserve freedom! Huzzah!!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He'll look good in the cell beside Sona in between Del Mastro. Not to mention Duffy, Wallin and Brazeau.
> 
> Yep 2015 looks bright for Hairpiece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So you defend the right to be a bigot using publically owned airwaves? 

I don't.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So you defend the right to be a bigot using publically owned airwaves?
> 
> I don't.


Why not? The CBC does it all the time being leftist with an agenda and with OUR money to boot!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'll personally reimburse your CBC dues if you so desire. Don't like the CBC, don't watch don't listen. Your loss.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep Pol Pot head of the CBC who reports to a board fully composed of Hairpiece appointees.


----------



## bse5150

The link to the YouTube video in your signature doesn't work.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep need to get a new link thanks.


----------



## Macfury

Don't like Levant. Don't watch, don't listen--and I don't need to reimburse you because no public funds were used to put him on the air. Win-win!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'll personally reimburse your CBC dues if you so desire. Don't like the CBC, don't watch don't listen. Your loss.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No sheite. 

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/6232662?utm_hp_ref=tw


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Don't like Levant. Don't watch, don't listen--and I don't need to reimburse you because no public funds were used to put him on the air. Win-win!



I don't watch the bigot. Channel is blocked. I read what the bigot says. The bigot should be in prison. 

The publicly owned airwaves are licensed to the employer of a repeat offender bigot.


----------



## Macfury

Freedom is hard on the left. Learn to live with it.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I don't watch the bigot. Channel is blocked. I read what the bigot says. The bigot should be in prison.
> 
> The publicly owned airwaves are licensed to the employer of a repeat offender bigot.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sorry repeat bigotry is punishable. That's why we have laws.


----------



## Macfury

Levant isn't even close to a bigot. However, which law says that bigotry is punishable at all?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sorry repeat bigotry is punishable. That's why we have laws.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The bigot is guilty of promoting hate speech. Would you like a list of the bigot's targets?


----------



## Macfury

In order to qualify as "hate speech," Levant's diatribes would have to promote genocide. As far as I can tell, he speaks out _against _promoters of genocide.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The bigot is guilty of promoting hate speech. Would you like a list of the bigot's targets?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Your interpretation. Not mine. The bigot targets Roma, environmentalists, Muslims, etc., for his special brand of hatred. 

Perhaps you agree with the bigot. Your choice.


----------



## Macfury

It isn't interpretation. Hate speech is not covered by _Canada's Human Rights Act_. Get with the program, Jimbo.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Your interpretation. Not mine. The bigot targets Roma, environmentalists, Muslims, etc., for his special brand of hatred.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Right. He doesn't promote hatred nor is he a bigot. He's just loose with the truth. 

You're a supporter.


----------



## Macfury

I'm certainly not a supportive of you, Jimbo.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Right. He doesn't promote hatred nor is he a bigot. He's just loose with the truth.
> 
> You're a supporter.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Thank you!


----------



## Macfury

...however, I do support your right to inflict hate speech on Conservatives.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I have countless conservative friends who do not support CPC republicanism. Minority perspective deserves minority status in Canadian government. 

This will happen in 2015.


----------



## SINC

I have countless conservative friends who do support the CPC. Majority perspective deserves majority status in Canadian government. 

This will happen in 2015.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A fine example of Hairpiece and CPC stupidity -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report...e-wheat-board/article21810531/?service=mobile


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A fine example of Hairpiece and CPC stupidity -
> 
> Why so many farmers miss the Wheat Board - The Globe and Mail


Try and get it right for once Jimbo. Farmers voted democratically to abolish the wheat board and the government honoured their request. There are hundreds of thousands of farmers much better off for the change, not to mention the freedom from dictatorship.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This file is gettin' heavy. Support the troops - 

http://globalnews.ca/news/1697575/hurt-reservists-still-get-less-why-wont-feds-fix-it/


----------



## SINC

Fantino gives thanks on Italian trip with war vets | WARMINGTON | Canada | News :clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Try and get it right for once Jimbo. Farmers voted democratically to abolish the wheat board and the government honoured their request. There are hundreds of thousands of farmers much better off for the change, not to mention the freedom from dictatorship.



Try reading the article.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Fantino gives thanks on Italian trip with war vets | WARMINGTON | Canada | News :clap:



Yup. Fantino is very popular.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Free the beaver!


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

Justin Trudeau jokes about war and Canada’s military


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Try and get it right for once Jimbo. Farmers voted democratically to abolish the wheat board and the government honoured their request. There are hundreds of thousands of farmers much better off for the change, not to mention the freedom from dictatorship.


So which vote are you talking about? A vote that happened in your mind only?



TheGlobeandMail said:


> Downey is a classic prairie conservative, but says it’s a mistake to see the CWB as a socialist institution. “I knew a lot of staunchly conservative farmers who loved the Wheat Board,” he says. “A lot of farmers work very hard all day. They come home, they’re tired, and they don’t want to spend the evening trying to figure out how to sell their wheat. A lot of decent people like Andy McMechan had legitimate complaints about the Board, and when they protested, the Wheat Board overreacted and disgraced itself. But a lot of decent farmers like what the Wheat Board was trying to do.”
> 
> Glenn Tait is one of them. He operates his great-grandfather’s homestead near Meota, Saskatchewan. Like many hard-pressed farmers, he is coping with the rising costs by working a spread of 2,300 acres with his father and brother-in-law. He says the dismantling of the CWB was presented to the general public as a gift to farmers, but in his opinion it wasn’t a gift the farmers—who owned the Board—actually wanted. “The Wheat Board ran many polls over the years, with a large majority of farmers supporting the old single-desk system. The government spent two years spouting inflammatory rhetoric, and tried to prevent the CWB from holding a final plebiscite on the issue.”
> 
> *But the CWB had a vote anyway: Out of about 36,000 wheat farmers who voted, 62% were in favour of keeping the Board. The Harper forces dismissed the plebiscite results as unscientific, and argued that whether the poll was valid or not, an electoral majority doesn’t give one group the right to dictate to another (except perhaps in the House of Commons, where the Conservatives shut down debate aboutthe CWB’s future). A group of farmers calling themselves Friends of the Canadian Wheat Board counterattacked by launching a $17-billion lawsuit against the federal government, alleging that by collapsing the CWB and expropriating more than 3,375 CWB railway cars, the Harper government not only interfered with the farmers’ ability to make a living but also seized property that was owned by the CWB’s farmer shareholders.**


*My bold and font size


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://globalnews.ca/news/1667935/veterans-plea-for-military-to-join-protest-of-harper-government/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

History of the bigot -

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...bout-ezra-levant-is-he-still-thinks-hes-right


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> So which vote are you talking about? A vote that happened in your mind only?


As usual a union type and easterner has no idea what really went on in the west. Two thirds of prairie farmers rejected the CWB. 

Western Barley Growers Association: Wheat Growers Reject Results of Undemocratic CWB Vote

They rid themselves of a draconian dictatorship that was stifling opportunity and a cash grab.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> As usual a union type and easterner has no idea what really went on in the west. Two thirds of prairie farmers rejected the CWB.
> 
> Western Barley Growers Association: Wheat Growers Reject Results of Undemocratic CWB Vote
> 
> They rid themselves of a draconian dictatorship that was stifling opportunity and a cash grab.


Stayed focused, OGL did not want a vote ever.

An easterner knows the difference between barley and wheat, whether they are organized or not.

Along with staying focused do you have repeating behaviours or misplace household items in strange places, such as love ones finding a lost cell phone in the refrigerator?


----------



## Macfury

Farmers are still free to sell their wheat to the CWB, so they don't have to worry about finding a market for their wheat.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Stayed focused, OGL did not want a vote ever.
> 
> An easterner knows the difference between barley and wheat, whether they are organized or not.
> 
> Along with staying focused do you have repeating behaviours or misplace household items in strange places, such as love ones finding a lost cell phone in the refrigerator?


North Korea's leader has nothing to do with this. Your attempts to bait with personal insults reflects directly on you and your character.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Farmers are still free to sell their wheat to the CWB, so they don't have to worry about finding a market for their wheat.


Most of my relatives are farmers in the west and they are all pleased to have the freedom to sell their products where they choose. Some even choose to use the CWB. It is called market freedom and the overwhelming lot of them are pleased with the CWB monopoly finally being broken. The days of dictatorship are done.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> North Korea's leader has nothing to do with this. Your attempts to bait with personal insults reflects directly on you and your character.


Your lack of focus is astounding.

Back at ya!


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Most of my relatives are farmers in the west and they are all pleased to have the freedom to sell their products where they choose. Some even choose to use the CWB. It is called market freedom and the overwhelming lot of them are pleased with the CWB monopoly finally being broken. The days of dictatorship are done.


It's simply the concept of freedom itself that is offensive to "progressives".


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Jeet on the bigot -

https://storify.com/JeetHeer1/ezra-levant


----------



## Macfury

Nobody cares, Jimbo. You can't kill your enemies by linking to irrelevant blogs.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Seems you care enough to post.


----------



## Macfury

You're a trainwreck, Jimbo--and I can't look away!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Seems you care enough to post.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dickweed.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Dickweed.


Yep, more classy stuff from Jimbo and his bimbo BigDL from the east.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Cheaters cheat -

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/11/30/...=the-deafening-silence-that-is-stephen-harper


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You're a train wreck, Jimbo--and I can't look away!


:lmao: Indeed. 

Whether Jimbo belonged to the NDP or the NDP Lite (Libs) they would likely kick him out of the party for being a:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. That'll help. 😆😆😆http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...taff_to_veterans_minister_julian_fantino.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Give hairpiece's lynchman some rope. It is a legal process afterall -

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/m...ing-appeal-of-guelph-robocalls-case-1.2856687


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Support the troops y'all.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/minister-julian-fantino-resists-calls-to-step-down-over-veterans-funding-flap/article21863587/?service=mobile&cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Mo' support the troops y'all. 

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...olitical-survival-would-be-a-show-of-humility


----------



## SINC

Yep he's in full assault mode. Perhaps we should all ignore this thread until the new year and let him babble to himself until then?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Reading the sun while being asked a question. There goes another seat Hairpiece. 

http://aptn.ca/news/2014/12/01/aglukkaq-reads-newspaper-northern-food-debate-flares-around/


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep he's in full assault mode. Perhaps we should all ignore this thread until the new year and let him babble to himself until then?


Yes we all know he is a:










The problem is he does not realize it and so he will continue to post as long as we reply to him in any way.

I will not not stop posting here because of a troll.

I would rather that no one reply to the troll and thus not feeding him to continue posting to the thread and just ignore the troll altogether.


----------



## Macfury

He seems fixated on Stephen Harper's codpiece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> He seems fixated on Stephen Harper's codpiece.


:lmao:

I guess he figures, in his pretzel logic, that some how it is an attack against the PM's masculinity...

Who knows?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

😆😆😆It's the rug on his head bozos.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. That sad downward spiral. Support the troops. Yeah right. 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/News/10434027/story.html


----------



## Macfury

Yep. That next election will be all about the troops.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Naw


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Real hair. Has seen a lot of war over his 26 years. Cropped photo. He's wearing short pants.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Fontino doesn't wear a rug.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Gotta be bad when hairpiece has to defend you -

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...terans-affairs-minister-fantino/#.VH5R9f48KJJ


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Wildrose. 


http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/edm...emotions-raw-at-alberta-legislature-1.2856866


----------



## Macfury

Is here an old rubby mumbling Conservative conspiracy theories off in the corner?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No dickweed. No conspiracy. Just policy. 

Call an election.


----------



## Macfury

I think he's calling for Stephen Harper to have en erection again. I guess this is where his screen name comes from. Someone give him a bottle of Thunderbird and show him the door.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election.


Let's see how Shiny Pony does in a campaign, without his handlers screening everything for him.

Bring it!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep him there hairpiece -


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Let's see how Shiny Pony does in a campaign, without his handlers screening everything for him.
> 
> Bring it!


And so it begins as Trudeau's Libs slide and Harper's Cons swell:

ThreeHundredEight.com: Conservatives and Liberals tied in Ipsos poll


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

He's a goner. He's disliked so much that he blew his precious precious (majority).


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. That'll do it. 😆😆😆

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10437422


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The dickens you say. dishonour!

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...aves-of-war-dead-analysis-shows/#.VH-_wCY8KJJ


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

lawdy mama. 

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/6186066?utm_hp_ref=tw


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Tsk Tsk

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/l...s-a-bad-idea-during-question-period-1.2859631


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Jeeeeesuz! Pile on. 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...m-uppal-charged-in-drug-sting-2/#.VH_EdCY8KJJ


----------



## Macfury

Bring on the election in 2015!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 51762


Uhmm that would be the Wheat Board... fancy that.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Uhmm that would be the Wheat Board... fancy that.


Exactly. They need a partner with big capital--not just one that can barely afford to buy them.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Exactly. They need a partner with big capital--not just one that can barely afford to buy them.


Exactly. Is there an echo in here?...


Cross referencing to Kosh's post in the CWB thread:



Kosh said:


> *CWB should be given, never mind sold, to the Farmers*. But Stephen Harper seems to love giving things away to foreign companies.


What a ridiculous idea IMO! 

Does Kosh really think a group 3000 farmers has the economic assets let alone the political clout, leadership and know how to operate the CWB, let alone how to promote and market it internationally even if it was "given" to them?. The mere suggestion of it belies his ideology and lack of business sense.

If that proposition was brought to the Dragon's Den, they would be laughed out of the room.

And yet it is the Opposition who says the Government rules based on ideology.

It is to laugh and so I will.

:lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bonus! Call an election hairpiece. 

http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/1255752-veterans-affairs-managers-reaped-rewards-after-cuts


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bonus! Call an election hairpiece.
> 
> Veterans Affairs: Managers reaped rewards after cuts | The Chronicle Herald


Me thinks you would be disappointed with the results if one were to be called now. beejacon


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Me thinks you would be disappointed with the results if one were to be called now. beejacon


Still, Jimbo's impotent cries to have the victorious party call an early election because he keeps linking to some old story demonstrate a certain fascinating pathos.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Support the troops Hairpiece -

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...uts-2009-13-budget-records-show/#.VITLpSY8KJJ


----------



## Macfury

Oh, those troops! Call an election in late 2015!


----------



## FeXL

What's this? Discord in the ranks? Liberals tearing up their membership cards? Police called in?

Leslie acclaimed Liberal candidate in Orléans in chaotic meeting



> “This is not the Liberal party I have been part of my whole life and I’m disappointed,” said Bertschi. “I’m numb. I believe in democracy.”


Yeah, there's a surprise.

Call an election!


----------



## Macfury

Justin Trudeau is transparent about his dictatorship.



FeXL said:


> What's this? Discord in the ranks? Liberals tearing up their membership cards? Police called in?
> 
> Leslie acclaimed Liberal candidate in Orléans in chaotic meeting
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, there's a surprise.
> 
> Call an election!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep Fantino in place Hairpiece. Call an election. 

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...inistration-saw-biggest-job-cuts-records-show


----------



## Macfury

Supporters of a losing party don't get to demand elections.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Call an election.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

I voted for him partially because he's the only politician smart enough to realize that the greenhouse gas craze is a sad joke thought up by "progressives."


----------



## FeXL

So, Jimbo, just to clarify...

1) You don't believe the transfer payments generated largely by the taxation of crude from Alberta oil sands you receive are a good thing?

2) You think an over-reaching, all-encompassing, blanket statement like "Canada's oil sands are bad for the environment" actually addresses in any way, shape or form even the most miniscule portion of the topic?

3) You have empirical, measurable evidence of anthropogenically caused global warming, especially, but not limited to, the quantity of this effect? And, you can provide empirical, measurable evidence as to why there has been no statistically significant change in global temperatures for greater than the last 18 years despite the injection of record amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere from both natural & anthropomorphic sources over that same period of time? In addition, you can offer empirical, measurable evidence to reconcile the hypothesis of AGW & the fact that both Arctic & Antarctic ice are near the 30 year mean?

Jes' askin'...


----------



## Macfury

Give Jimbo time to find the appropriate editorial cartoonist to respond to you...



FeXL said:


> So, Jimbo, just to clarify...
> 
> 1) You don't believe the transfer payments generated largely by the taxation of crude from Alberta oil sands you receive are a good thing?
> 
> 2) You think an over-reaching, all-encompassing, blanket statement like "Canada's oil sands are bad for the environment" actually addresses in any way, shape or form even the most miniscule portion of the topic?
> 
> 3) You have empirical, measurable evidence of anthropogenically caused global warming, especially, but not limited to, the quantity of this effect? And, you can provide empirical, measurable evidence as to why there has been no statistically significant change in global temperatures for greater than the last 18 years despite the injection of record amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere from both natural & anthropomorphic sources over that same period of time? In addition, you can offer empirical, measurable evidence to reconcile the hypothesis of AGW & the fact that both Arctic & Antarctic ice are near the 30 year mean?
> 
> Jes' askin'...


----------



## FeXL

The good news is, I'll probably miss his response if it's in that form.

With the browser I use, I have to click on the images to see them, something I rarely do...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Guy! Guy! Guy!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

No ****e Sherlock!? Keep him in there Hairpiece -

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...seat-over-veterans-affairs-cuts/#.VIZTpyY8KJJ


----------



## Macfury

It's pretty funny stringing together Jimbo's non-sequiturs--sounds like an ad for the Hair Club for Men. Nobody's going to click on your lazy-ass links unless you provide some actual content.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Job creation - Hairpiece style -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...surance-files/article21996968/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

Recent pensees, by SKIPPY, le Kangourou de la brousse!



> Job creation - Hairpiece style -
> 
> No ****e Sherlock!? Keep him in there Hairpiece -...
> 
> Keep Fantino in place Hairpiece. Call an election.
> 
> Support the troops Hairpiece - ...
> 
> Bonus! Call an election hairpiece. ...
> 
> Pile on. ...
> 
> Tsk Tsk ...
> 
> The dickens you say. dishonour!
> 
> Yep. That'll do it.
> 
> He's a goner. He's disliked so much that he blew his precious precious (majority).
> 
> maybe not re-elect Harper. Time for a change for...


----------



## Macfury

Growth in provinces led by conservatives will deliver a Harper victory in 2015!

Liberals and Tories tied in latest poll of federal party support | Globalnews.ca



> Wright said the wildcard will be 2015’s seat redistribution.
> 
> “Because of the demographic changes in this country, that Parliament has created another 30-odd seats,” he said. “And the Conservatives, in fact, will pick up most of those seats in the west –that’s where the immigration and where the demographics have changed the most.”
> 
> Wright said geography is key in predicting election outcomes, and cautioned against polls that show Trudeau in the lead.
> 
> *“Mr. Harper might be slightly behind in the percentage of votes, but in seats alone he may be much further ahead.”*


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More job creation - Hairpiece style -

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...in-ministerial-offices-ballooned-under-harper


----------



## Macfury

Jobs reports are looking good!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hairpiece - pro torture 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...eral-torture-directives/#.VIdvbRp0fIw.twitter


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep it up Hairpiece, you're getting on everyone's nerves.

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2014/12/09/senate-passes-bill-that-infuriates-vietnam/#.VIeZCiY8KJK


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This clown is Canada's prime minister -

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...position-demands-fantino-resign/#.VIedDSY8KJJ


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Where's the drummer? Tonight's CPC Xmas shindig.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh yeah. 5 counts of sexual assault against a minor. 

I forgot Hairpiece.


----------



## FeXL

Yes, by all means, bring in the Liberals...

Ontario auditor general sounds alarm over province’s growing debt – $325-billion by 2018



> Ontario’s majority Liberal government has pledged to eliminate its $12.5-billion deficit by 2017-18. But by that year, the province’s net debt will have soared to $325 billion — more than double the $156.6 billion a decade ago, Lysyk’s report estimated.
> 
> *“To put this in perspective, to eliminate Ontario’s 2017-18 estimated net debt, every man, woman and child in Ontario would need to contribute $23,000 to the provincial coffers,” Lysyk said in her report.*


M'bold.

Two words: Pipe Dream. Take another hit from the bong, Wynne...

Related:

Ontarians paying billions extra for electricity, auditor general finds



> People in Ontario are paying billions of dollars extra for electricity thanks to a flawed smart meter program and the above-market rates the province pays most power generators, Ontario's auditor general reported Tuesday.


Yep. Gotta love them Liberal (whether provincial or federal, SSDP) financial decisions.

Please, bring the election...


----------



## FeXL

What's this? Even more federal Liberal discord? Shiny Pony, WTF? Call an election!

B.C. Sikhs quit Liberals to protest Justin Trudeau’s ‘star’ candidate

I'm not going to provide a link to CBC (can't actually believe that CBC covered this  ). If you want, there's one in the link I provided.

Maybe he just needs to give them all a hug...


----------



## Macfury

Alberta redistricting will fix his punk ass!



FeXL said:


> Maybe he just needs to give them all a hug...


----------



## MacGuiver

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh yeah. 5 counts of sexual assault against a minor.
> 
> I forgot Hairpiece.


Thats what you call scraping the barrel for scandal. 
I suppose by the same measure Shiny Pony and Wynne were buds with this pedo and he was more than just a drummer in a band. He was architect of Ontario's twisted sex ed curriculum. It all makes sense now.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hairpiece - *pro torture*
> 
> Harper ignores call to rescind torture policy | National Newswatch


Really?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Keep it up Hairpiece, you're getting on everyone's nerves.
> 
> Senate passes bill that infuriates Vietnam | National Newswatch


Uhhmm, this was a Senate Bill... it hasn't even come before the HoC yet.

Get your facts straight. What a lame post.

Can you ever post anything other than a link a one line comment or is that beyond your capabilities?. 

Sometimes you can't even summon up enough effort for a one line comment and just post a link.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh yeah. 5 counts of sexual assault against a minor.
> 
> I forgot Hairpiece.


WTF are you talking about???

So, my neighbour who I have had BBQs with turns out to be a pedophile, somehow in your pretzel logic world that makes me culpable as well for his crimes? 

You clearly have been a good student of McCarthyism and taken his teachings to heart.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Language please. Yunguns use this site.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Language please. *Yunguns use this site.*


:lmao:

I *highly doubt they do.*

This is a place for middle to old aged people, as evidence indicates (no rules obviously, but for anyone who comes here regularly) it is a known fact. 

"For real"... The people who post here regularly need not worry about parental guidance when it comes to visiting or posting here, there are much, much, much worse places "Yunguns" could visit.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Bring her on. 

http://m.calgarysun.com/2014/12/10/leveraging-laureen-pms-wife-takes-on-new-political-edge


----------



## FeXL

Agreed. She has more political acumen in her pinky than Shiny Pony has in 3 bodies...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Agreed. She has more political acumen in her pinky than Shiny Pony has in 3 bodies...


Once the redistricting occurs, driven by economic growth in the West, any Conservative candidate can take the election in 2015. That's the payback for Ontario's flaccid economy under the Liberals.


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of the lying darling of the left...

Oh, Shiny Pony!

Vid at link.

From the comments:



> Happened to notice the day the Sikhs walked out of the party the banner headlines on NNW "Liberal membership has skyrocketed since Trudeau became leader". In other words if you think Trudeau lies you should see what his covering MSM does to cover for him.


Yep...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

CPC free zone from Québec through NFLD coming in 2015. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/new...ys-rules-for-fisheries-fund-changed-1.2870812


----------



## Macfury

CBC-free zone coming in 2015!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CPC free zone from Québec through NFLD coming in 2015.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/new...ys-rules-for-fisheries-fund-changed-1.2870812


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The ol' root cause excuse again -

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/i...o-address-root-causes-of-radicalism-1.2870184


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Classy production here -

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DWIQ_BA_nWs


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CPC free zone from Québec through NFLD coming in 2015.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/new...ys-rules-for-fisheries-fund-changed-1.2870812


Keep on dreaming skippy.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The ol' root cause excuse again -
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/i...o-address-root-causes-of-radicalism-1.2870184


Context skippy, context.

JT made the comment regarding the Boston bombing, not about the Middle East. Whole different kettle of fish... at least for those who understand and appreciate the nuances of such things.

JT's comment displayed that he has no appreciation/knowledge/understanding of context, nuance, appropriateness or just in general political acumen, i.e. what to say and when to say it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Just when you thought Julian Fantino was the most hilariously incompetent Harper Min, along comes Kerri Lynne Findley

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-...ng-my-privacy/article22061423/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

Breedlove is a "progressive" idiot. Harper is correct. His own country's president can't bring jobs to America--how do you expect to bring them to foreign countries with whom you're at war?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 52050


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You repubs crack me up.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BTW I see the libertarian wingnuts are running in 20 tidings so far. Good luck.


----------



## SINC

More from the guy who thinks he can be PM:

Justin Trudeau denies forcing Sikh candidate from nomination race - British Columbia - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You repubs! LOL!


----------



## Macfury

This is the transparency we were promised by the Shiny Pony?



SINC said:


> More from the guy who thinks he can be PM:
> 
> Justin Trudeau denies forcing Sikh candidate from nomination race - British Columbia - CBC News


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 52050


You clearly have no understanding of context... none at all, and neither does the dolt who generated that graphic.


----------



## SINC

Poor confused kid. He musta smoked too much to remember his own promises:

Justin Trudeau contradicts open nomination pledge: Editorial | Toronto Star

Hava nuther puff, JT.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Poor confused kid. He musta smoked too much to remember his own promises:
> 
> Justin Trudeau contradicts open nomination pledge: Editorial | Toronto Star
> 
> Hava nuther puff, JT.


He isn't even in power yet and he is already breaking his promises.

Jut wait until if and when he gets into power, when he wears the "crown" as the "heir apparent" and the dauphin.

Then he will show his true colours as the son of his father, a self important, arrogant buffoon, and of his mother, an unstable, mentally ill pharmaceutical drug addict.




















































































On the world stage he will be a complete embarrassment, he has already revealed a number of times just how poor his judgment is...

Anyone other than JT in 2015.

Canadians deserve better!


----------



## Macfury

Pierre Trudeau was a true embarrassment. Thanks for the memories, screature.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Pierre Trudeau was a true embarrassment. Thanks for the memories, screature.


We in the US envied Canadians for choosing Trudeau. We had Nixon and Vietnam for much of the time PT was PM.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Pierre Trudeau was a true embarrassment. Thanks for the memories, screature.


The worst PM we've ever had.


----------



## Macfury

Blame Kennedy and Johnson for Vietnam. Nixon was not so bad in hindsight.



Dr.G. said:


> We in the US envied Canadians for choosing Trudeau. We had Nixon and Vietnam for much of the time PT was PM.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

(published Dec 15, 2014 in Waterloo Region Record and Guelph Mercury)

Rt. Hon. Stephen Harper
24 Sussex Drive
Ottawa, Ontario.
My very dear Prime Minister:
Permit me, on behalf of a grateful nation, to extend our thanks for your enlightened stewardship and our best wishes for an exceptionally happy Christmas. Your loyal subjects join you in eager anticipation of your re-election next October to a fourth term as PM. Your place in Canadian history is secure; soon you will join the pantheon of world greats.
But you know all this. Let me get to the point. There’s a pile of presents under your Christmas tree, gifts from supporters and favour-seekers. But be careful, Prime Minister, there is one “gift” you do not want to open. It will cause you great distress. It is a new book entitled “Party of One: Stephen Harper and Canada’s Radical Makeover” by iPolitics columnist Michael Harris.
It is a nasty piece of work, sir. Very nasty. It alleges that since you took command of the state in 2006, you have endeavored, with considerable success, to make the Conservative party and indeed the entire government accountable to just one person – to you, Mr. Harper.
The indictment is lengthy: You insist on controlling everything yet refuse to accept blame when things go wrong. You do not trust science, statistics or any information that does not coincide with your own beliefs or partisan intentions. You have no faith in public servants and diplomats to give you objective advice. You withhold information. You treat Parliament with contempt.
You have changed the country. As Michael Harris writes: “Until that moment (when you became prime minister), Canada had been a secular and progressive nation that believed in transfer payments to better distribute the country’s wealth, the Westminster model of governance, a national medicare program, a peacekeeping role for the armed forces, an arm’s-length public service, the separation of church and state, and solid support for the United Nations. Stephen Harper believed in none of these things.”
Please, Prime Minister, do not assume “Party of One” is some sort of partisan rant, a piece of opposition propaganda in election year. It is much more than that. It is a deeply researched and meticulously documented account of your years in office. I have known Harris for years and I worked with him at the Globe and Mail. He is a superb investigative reporter, one the best. He specializes in finding slithery things hidden under rocks.
His first book, “Justice Denied,” reported the wrongful conviction of Donald Marshall, a Mi’kmaq Indian in Nova Scotia, who spent 11 years in prison for a murder he did not commit. His second, “Unholy Orders,” ripped the lid off the cover-up of sexual and physical abuse of boys at the Mount Cashel Orphanage in Newfoundland.
He brings the same intensity to his scrutiny of your reign. It’s all there: the robocall scandal and election-spending abuses; the destruction of Linda Keen, the head of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission; the F-35 folly; your vendetta against Helena Guergis, who was one of your MPs and ministers until you threw her under the bus; your wars against Statistics Canada, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, the Chief Electoral Officer, the Auditor General and even the Chief Justice of Canada; your government’s hypocritical treatment of veterans; and your errors in judgment in trusting high office to people who should be in jail instead. And, of course, there was your signature folly: Mike Duffy and the Senate-expense scandal; Harris probes your complicity in exhaustive detail.
As I advised at the outset, please, Prime Minister, do not read this book. It will make you angry. It will make you want to get even. You may even want to sue the author for being beastly to you. I wouldn’t do that, Sir. If the case ends up before the Supreme Court, the Chief Justice and her colleagues may remember how you tried to beat her up after the court blocked your appointment of the ineligible Marc Nadon. Judges have long memories.
Your faithful lickspittle,
etc., etc.
—

Cambridge resident Geoffrey Stevens, an author and former Ottawa columnist and managing editor of the Globe and Mail, teaches political science at Wilfrid Laurier University and the University of Guelph. His column appears Mondays. He welcomes comments at [email protected]


----------



## Macfury

emdash, emdash, emdash--nice going Jimbo!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> (published Dec 15, 2014 in Waterloo Region Record and Guelph Mercury)
> 
> Rt. Hon. Stephen Harper
> 24 Sussex Drive
> Ottawa, Ontario.
> My very dear Prime Minister:
> Permit me, on behalf of a grateful nation, to extend our thanks for your enlightened stewardship and our best wishes for an exceptionally happy Christmas. Your loyal subjects join you in eager anticipation of your re-election next October to a fourth term as PM. Your place in Canadian history is secure; soon you will join the pantheon of world greats.
> But you know all this. Let me get to the point. There’s a pile of presents under your Christmas tree, gifts from supporters and favour-seekers. But be careful, Prime Minister, there is one “gift” you do not want to open. It will cause you great distress. It is a new book entitled “Party of One: Stephen Harper and Canada’s Radical Makeover” by iPolitics columnist Michael Harris.
> It is a nasty piece of work, sir. Very nasty. It alleges that since you took command of the state in 2006, you have endeavored, with considerable success, to make the Conservative party and indeed the entire government accountable to just one person – to you, Mr. Harper.
> The indictment is lengthy: You insist on controlling everything yet refuse to accept blame when things go wrong. You do not trust science, statistics or any information that does not coincide with your own beliefs or partisan intentions. You have no faith in public servants and diplomats to give you objective advice. You withhold information. You treat Parliament with contempt.
> You have changed the country. As Michael Harris writes: “Until that moment (when you became prime minister), Canada had been a secular and progressive nation that believed in transfer payments to better distribute the country’s wealth, the Westminster model of governance, a national medicare program, a peacekeeping role for the armed forces, an arm’s-length public service, the separation of church and state, and solid support for the United Nations. Stephen Harper believed in none of these things.”
> Please, Prime Minister, do not assume “Party of One” is some sort of partisan rant, a piece of opposition propaganda in election year. It is much more than that. It is a deeply researched and meticulously documented account of your years in office. I have known Harris for years and I worked with him at the Globe and Mail. He is a superb investigative reporter, one the best. He specializes in finding slithery things hidden under rocks.
> His first book, “Justice Denied,” reported the wrongful conviction of Donald Marshall, a Mi’kmaq Indian in Nova Scotia, who spent 11 years in prison for a murder he did not commit. His second, “Unholy Orders,” ripped the lid off the cover-up of sexual and physical abuse of boys at the Mount Cashel Orphanage in Newfoundland.
> He brings the same intensity to his scrutiny of your reign. It’s all there: the robocall scandal and election-spending abuses; the destruction of Linda Keen, the head of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission; the F-35 folly; your vendetta against Helena Guergis, who was one of your MPs and ministers until you threw her under the bus; your wars against Statistics Canada, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, the Chief Electoral Officer, the Auditor General and even the Chief Justice of Canada; your government’s hypocritical treatment of veterans; and your errors in judgment in trusting high office to people who should be in jail instead. And, of course, there was your signature folly: Mike Duffy and the Senate-expense scandal; Harris probes your complicity in exhaustive detail.
> As I advised at the outset, please, Prime Minister, do not read this book. It will make you angry. It will make you want to get even. You may even want to sue the author for being beastly to you. I wouldn’t do that, Sir. If the case ends up before the Supreme Court, the Chief Justice and her colleagues may remember how you tried to beat her up after the court blocked your appointment of the ineligible Marc Nadon. Judges have long memories.
> Your faithful lickspittle,
> etc., etc.
> —
> 
> Cambridge resident Geoffrey Stevens, an author and former Ottawa columnist and managing editor of the Globe and Mail, teaches political science at Wilfrid Laurier University and the University of Guelph. His column appears Mondays. He welcomes comments at [email protected]


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hairpiece -

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/12/14/lies-damn-lies-and-stephen-harper/


----------



## Macfury

Hooray! Failing Ontario economy under the Liberals means this province gets the biggest equalization payment of 2014!!! Kathleen Wynne, hard at work seeking welfare for the people of Ontario!

Ontario to get $1.3 billion extra in federal transfer payments | Toronto Star


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> The worst PM we've ever had.


Yep. 

Three words that will keep him infamous in Alberta: National Energy Program.


----------



## Macfury

Anyone remember the Anti-Inflation Board? That Idea was so daft that it's hard to believe that any sane person would have proposed it.



FeXL said:


> Yep.
> 
> Three words that will keep him infamous in Alberta: National Energy Program.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Anyone remember the Anti-Inflation Board? That Idea was so daft that it's hard to believe that any sane person would have proposed it.


Hadn't heard of it (bit early in my keeping-track-of-politics career). Just read a couple of quick articles about it.

Sounds like a typical Liberal solution...


----------



## Macfury

The idea that you could simply order prices to go down without dire consequences was insane.



FeXL said:


> Hadn't heard of it (bit early in my keeping-track-of-politics career). Just read a couple of quick articles about it.
> 
> Sounds like a typical Liberal solution...


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> We in the US envied Canadians for choosing Trudeau. We had Nixon and Vietnam for much of the time PT was PM.


I highly doubt that all, or even the majority of, US citizens felt that way about Trudeau Dr. G. Perhaps in the circles that you associated with but there were plenty of Americans who despised him and for plenty of good reasons, given his policies and actions. 

Perhaps it was his buffoonery and over the top flamboyance that drew some in the US to admire him compared to the staid Nixon.

At least Nixon didn't impose a War Measures Act to repress the citizens of the entire country over the isolated acts of a small internal terrorist group.

Trudeau completely overreacted to the FLQ threat and his implementation of the War Measures Act was the greatest human rights violation in Canadian history and for some strange reason some people continue to revere him.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. That's cause Hairpiece makes joining the military so compelling. Support the troops -

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10503992


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. How about 9 months and a little enhanced interrogation - you choose repubs - rectal feeding or water boarding?

http://o.canada.com/news/crown-seeks-to-lock-up-sona-for-longer-than-nine-months


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

She's toast - http://theconservativeman.wordpress.com/2014/12/15/danielle-smith-the-pc-pretender/


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. How about 9 months and a little enhanced interrogation - you choose repubs - rectal feeding or water boarding?
> 
> Crown seeks to lock up Sona for longer than nine months | canada.com





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> She's toast - Danielle Smith -The PC Pretender | The Conservative Man





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. That's cause Hairpiece makes joining the military so compelling. Support the troops -
> 
> Canadian military facing shortfall of personnel


You may not have heard of it but there is this thing on the internet called Twitter.

Based on your posts (less than 120 characters) you may want to consider it as an option as opposed to posting here as it seems that more than 120 characters of original thought is too much for you. beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Up yours.


----------



## Macfury

Problem is, Twitter also requires a certain panache missing from these dreary "progressive" missives.



screature said:


> You may not have heard of it but there is this thing on the internet called Twitter.
> 
> Based on your posts (less than 120 characters) you may want to consider it as an option as opposed to posting here as it seems that more than 120 characters of original thought is too much for you. beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

😆😆😆😆😆😆 http://m.calgarysun.com/2014/12/16/...or-wildrose-to-join-progressive-conservatives


----------



## Macfury

Wildrose is moving to the right--excellent!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> 😆😆😆😆😆😆 Document details conditions for Wildrose to join Progressive Conservatives | Opinion | Calgary Sun


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Up yours.


Still less than 120 characters, your post just further adds to the reasons why Twitter may be a better format for your posting "style".

Just trying to help you out. You may have a "better"/larger audience there where they appreciate short content light posts.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sure


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sure


You are indeed a man of very few words.


----------



## Macfury

It is a big man indeed, who can share his stark raving fear each day without an ounce of encouragement. How his children must look up to him: "Daddy's not shaking because he's sick, kids--he's just a very frightened man."



screature said:


> You are indeed a man of very few words.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sure


So, are you actually interested in discussing any of these topics or are you simply content to continue your MacDoc-style drive bys?


----------



## Macfury

If you actually read some of his links, you can tell that he's just reading the headlines and posting. He can't discuss what he hasn't read.

headlineshi


FeXL said:


> So, are you actually interested in discussing any of these topics or are you simply content to continue your MacDoc-style drive bys?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You repubs are really something else. 😆😆😆😆


----------



## SINC

Beats posting links that are even more dead than your signature link, and man is it dead.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It is a big man indeed, who can share his stark raving fear each day without an ounce of encouragement. How his children must look up to him: "Daddy's not shaking because he's sick, kids--he's just a very frightened man."


Are those your original words Macfury or is that a quote?


----------



## Macfury

My own, screature.



screature said:


> Are those your original words Macfury or is that a quote?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Amazing. http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/edm...e-mlas-crossing-to-alberta-pc-party-1.2875672


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Better keep their résumés up to date. They'll need them following the swift boot they're going to get in 2015. Call the election Hairpiece. 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/polit...in-ministerial-offices-ballooned-under-harper


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whale oil beef hooked - from the G&M -

Newfoundland’s premier is making it clear – his province has been swindled by the Harper government

It’s not quite Danny Williams’ five-alarm, scorched-earth campaign, but Newfoundland’s new premier is making it his business to tell people that Stephen Harper has reneged on a deal.

Paul Davis has a much more even-keel style, and it seems pretty clear that he’s still hoping to get the federal government to give. Still, he’s already said, bluntly, that he can’t trust Mr. Harper. Now he’s spreading the message.

“This is a big deal to Newfoundland and Labrador,” Mr. Davis said in an interview. “And it’s a particularly big deal to rural parts of the province.”

Some people have likened it to Mr. Williams’ vocal opposition to Mr. Harper’s unilateral changes to the Atlantic Accord in 2007. This time, Mr. Harper doesn’t have to worry it will cost him lose Newfoundland seats. His Conservatives don’t have any, and aren’t likely to win any next year.

But this dispute could raise pesky complications for the Canada-European Union Free Trade deal that the prime minister counts as one of his greatest accomplishments. It makes it easier for critics like the NDP to pick holes in it. And it can’t help that another Tory premier is railing that Mr. Harper’s and his team are faithless double-crossers.

Mr. Davis argues Ottawa is trying to undo a deal it made during the EU trade deal negotiations. Ottawa wanted to negotiate better access to Europe’s seafood market, so the EU wanted Newfoundland to drop its so-called Minimum Processing Rules, or MPRs, set up to require fish to be processed in the province. To convince Newfoundland to do it, Ottawa agreed to pay $280-million into a $400-million transition fund for Newfoundland’s fishing industry.

Now, Mr. Davis argues that the federal government is trying to set so many conditions on the fund it has essentially scuttled the deal.

What can the premier do? His government could say it will no longer support the Canada-EU trade deal. “That’s something that we have to determine,” he said.

Technically, it doesn’t matter. Ottawa signed the deal, not the provinces. But not applying the trade deal in Newfoundland’s provincial jurisdiction could cause big problems. That’s what Mr. Davis is threatening to do – to refuse to lift the MPRs. “If the prime minister lives up to the agreement, we will relinquish the MPRs,” he said.

That could be important. The trade agreement hasn’t been ratified yet, and the EU has been nervous that the provinces might not be bound by it. And if the deal does go ahead, and the EU firm feels the MPRs are costing them money, they could sue Canada.

The dispute about the fund is mainly about what the money is supposed to cover. Newfoundland says it’s a fund for revitalizing the fishing industry. But Rob Moore, the federal minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, argues it’s for “compensation” for the losses Newfoundland suffers from ditching the MPRs.

Mr. Davis’s government has released a pile of correspondence that details rushed talks between Ottawa and Newfoundland as the EU trade talks were coming down to the short strokes. Newfoundland wanted to be bought off. Trade Minister Ed Fast kept insisting that the fund could only be used to help displaced workers – but Newfoundland insisted it wanted a fund for “industry renewal and transition.” Eventually, with the clock ticking in the EU talks, Mr. Fast agreed. After the trade deal was announced, federal officials confirmed it.

Now, other provinces with fisheries don’t like the idea Newfoundland gets a $400-million fund for things like marketing and revamping equipment, which give it an edge. That’s obviously a headache for Ottawa. Mr. Moore set more restrictive conditions. Newfoundland doesn’t t even expect big losses from dropping the MPRs, Mr. Davis said, although he added: “But we can’t predict what will happen in 10 or 15 years.”

But of course, a deal is a deal. The letters Newfoundland released show that Ottawa and the province disagreed, and hammered out an understanding that the $400-million was for renewing the industry, not just compensating losses. Mr. Moore’s office says it doesn’t want confrontation, and the feds have “always been clear” that the fund was to compensate Newfoundland for “demonstrable” losses. But Mr. Fast’s letters, in which he struck the deal, said no such thing.

So now, the premier is spreading the word that his province has been swindled. He’s not vitriolic, at least not yet. But he’s trying to put pressure on Mr. Harper. “My job is to ensure that the prime minister lives up to the agreement,” he said.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Still less than 120 characters, your post just further adds to the reasons why Twitter may be a better format for your posting "style".
> 
> Just trying to help you out. You may have a "better"/larger audience there where they appreciate short content light posts.





screature said:


> You are indeed a man of very few words.





Macfury said:


> It is a big man indeed, who can share his stark raving fear each day without an ounce of encouragement. How his children must look up to him: "Daddy's not shaking because he's sick, kids--he's just a very frightened man."





FeXL said:


> So, are you actually interested in discussing any of these topics or are you simply content to continue your MacDoc-style drive bys?





SINC said:


> Beats posting links that are even more dead than your signature link, and man is it dead.





Macfury said:


> If you actually read some of his links, you can tell that he's just reading the headlines and posting. He can't discuss what he hasn't read.
> 
> headlineshi


The silent majority approve of the vital information provided by Skippy's pithy reports.


----------



## SINC

No content posts appear to be a specialty by the left.


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> The silent majority approve of the vital information provided by Skippy's pithy reports.


You & Jimbo are the majority?

If the poster, Jimbo or otherwise, doesn't even have the decency to offer a quote from the linked article, plus give a personal opinion to show where he/she/it stands on said topic, most of us here won't even click on the link, whether we agree with what is discernable from the title or not.

And, when Jimbo quotes swaths of material without dealing with simple things like em quotes and doesn't provide a link to where the quote came from, it doesn't get read either.

So, what's the point of it all? It certainly doesn't foster intelligent discourse on the topic. If he is providing the links simply as an FYI, fine. Then discuss the issue when it gets addressed. Some people have engaged the topic, only to be ignored. Why? Is he afraid of getting his butt handed to him in an even debate? Perhaps he is unable to intelligently debate the topic & is only comfortable with parroting others. I don't know &, frankly, I don't care.

FWIW, I actually agreed with some of the points being made but long ago stopped clicking on the links because it's patently obvious all Jimbo is interested in is upping his post count with content-free posts. 

It certainly contributes nothing to the enhancement of ehMac.

Consequently, the end result is to preach to the choir. So, you & all the other members of the "silent majority", go ahead. Rub your hands together in silent glee, slap each other on the shoulders & giggle away like a bunch of school girls. You come across as uninformed idiots.

The rest of us aren't buying into it...


----------



## Macfury

All six of you desperately clinging to each other at MacDiscussions hardly constitutes a majority.



BigDL said:


> The silent majority approve of the vital information provided by Skippy's pithy reports.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. So what else is new?

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...poll-suggests/article22139000/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

Absolutely agreed:


> All the ratings are more positive for the Prime Minister than a year ago..





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. So what else is new?
> 
> Canadians not happy with Tories or direction of country, poll suggests - The Globe and Mail


----------



## FeXL

So, Jimbo, you've posted links to the "downfall" of Wildrose in Alberta. Now that there has been a cross-over, any opinions on the subject?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> My own, screature.


Good one! :clap:


----------



## Macfury

He's planning to post an opinion, but the news aggregator hasn't offered a link yet...



FeXL said:


> So, Jimbo, you've posted links to the "downfall" of Wildrose in Alberta. Now that there has been a cross-over, any opinions on the subject?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The *silent majority* approve of the vital information provided by Skippy's pithy reports.





FeXL said:


> You & Jimbo are the majority?
> 
> If the poster, Jimbo or otherwise, doesn't even have the decency to offer a quote from the linked article, plus give a personal opinion to show where he/she/it stands on said topic, most of us here won't even click on the link, whether we agree with what is discernable from the title or not.
> 
> And, when Jimbo quotes swaths of material without dealing with simple things like em quotes and doesn't provide a link to where the quote came from, it doesn't get read either.
> 
> So, what's the point of it all? It certainly doesn't foster intelligent discourse on the topic. If he is providing the links simply as an FYI, fine. Then discuss the issue when it gets addressed. Some people have engaged the topic, only to be ignored. Why? Is he afraid of getting his butt handed to him in an even debate? Perhaps he is unable to intelligently debate the topic & is only comfortable with parroting others. I don't know &, frankly, I don't care.
> 
> FWIW, I actually agreed with some of the points being made but long ago stopped clicking on the links because it's patently obvious all Jimbo is interested in is upping his post count with content-free posts.
> 
> It certainly contributes nothing to the enhancement of ehMac.
> 
> Consequently, the end result is to preach to the choir. So, you & all the other members of the *"silent majority"*, go ahead. Rub your hands together in silent glee, slap each other on the shoulders & giggle away like a bunch of school girls. You come across as uninformed idiots.
> 
> The rest of us aren't buying into it...


Agreed on all accounts. Great post FeXL.

Just to add, if the "majority" is silent, how can we possibly know they are the in the "majority".

It is a perplexing phrase to me, "the silent majority".

In fact on the opposite side of the coin it is often said that silence is tacit approval. So if people don't stand up and be heard/object then they are in agreement.

Most likely not 100% but it certainly indicates a certain apathy or ambivalence.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> The silent majority approve of the vital information provided by Skippy's *pithy* reports.


Really? :yikes:

Hardly, more like pathetic when it comes to his own original words... that is if he took the time to actually write some.


----------



## heavyall

Other forums that I go to have an ignore feature. If you choose to ignore a certain member, you just won't even see their posts. It would be a very nice addition to this forum, IMO.


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> Other forums that I go to have an ignore feature. If you choose to ignore a certain member, you just won't even see their posts. It would be a very nice addition to this forum, IMO.


User CP>Your Control Panel>Settings & Options>Edit Ignore List.

Yer welcome...


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> User CP>Your Control Panel>Settings & Options>Edit Ignore List.
> 
> Yer welcome...


Thanks! I really did look for it, nor sure why I didn't see it before...

I am now kangaroo-free!


----------



## SINC

^

What a good idea!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Go for it repubs.


----------



## BigDL

Fun facts from the front page of this forum "Threads: 94,326, Posts: 1,310,049, *Members: 42,917"*

42,917 member on this forum and below are our NOISY MINORITY.




Macfury said:


> If you actually read some of his links, you can tell that he's just reading the headlines and posting. He can't discuss what he hasn't read.
> 
> headlineshi





SINC said:


> Beats posting links that are even more dead than your signature link, and man is it dead.





FeXL said:


> So, are you actually interested in discussing any of these topics or are you simply content to continue your MacDoc-style drive bys?





Macfury said:


> It is a big man indeed, who can share his stark raving fear each day without an ounce of encouragement. How his children must look up to him: "Daddy's not shaking because he's sick, kids--he's just a very frightened man."





screature said:


> You are indeed a man of very few words.





screature said:


> Still less than 120 characters, your post just further adds to the reasons why Twitter may be a better format for your posting "style".
> 
> Just trying to help you out. You may have a "better"/larger audience there where they appreciate short content light posts.





SINC said:


> No content posts appear to be a specialty by the left.





FeXL said:


> You & Jimbo are the majority?
> 
> If the poster, Jimbo or otherwise, doesn't even have the decency to offer a quote from the linked article, plus give a personal opinion to show where he/she/it stands on said topic, most of us here won't even click on the link, whether we agree with what is discernable from the title or not.
> 
> And, when Jimbo quotes swaths of material without dealing with simple things like em quotes and doesn't provide a link to where the quote came from, it doesn't get read either.
> 
> So, what's the point of it all? It certainly doesn't foster intelligent discourse on the topic. If he is providing the links simply as an FYI, fine. Then discuss the issue when it gets addressed. Some people have engaged the topic, only to be ignored. Why? Is he afraid of getting his butt handed to him in an even debate? Perhaps he is unable to intelligently debate the topic & is only comfortable with parroting others. I don't know &, frankly, I don't care.
> 
> FWIW, I actually agreed with some of the points being made but long ago stopped clicking on the links because it's patently obvious all Jimbo is interested in is upping his post count with content-free posts.
> 
> It certainly contributes nothing to the enhancement of ehMac.
> 
> Consequently, the end result is to preach to the choir. So, you & all the other members of the "silent majority", go ahead. Rub your hands together in silent glee, slap each other on the shoulders & giggle away like a bunch of school girls. You come across as uninformed idiots.
> 
> The rest of us aren't buying into it...





Macfury said:


> All six of you desperately clinging to each other at MacDiscussions hardly constitutes a majority.





FeXL said:


> So, Jimbo, you've posted links to the "downfall" of Wildrose in Alberta. Now that there has been a cross-over, any opinions on the subject?





Macfury said:


> He's planning to post an opinion, but the news aggregator hasn't offered a link yet...





screature said:


> Agreed on all accounts. Great post FeXL.
> 
> Just to add, if the "majority" is silent, how can we possibly know they are the in the "majority".
> 
> It is a perplexing phrase to me, "the silent majority".
> 
> In fact on the opposite side of the coin it is often said that silence is tacit approval. So if people don't stand up and be heard/object then they are in agreement.
> 
> Most likely not 100% but it certainly indicates a certain apathy or ambivalence.





screature said:


> Really? :yikes:
> 
> Hardly, more like pathetic when it comes to his own original words... that is if he took the time to actually write some.





heavyall said:


> Other forums that I go to have an ignore feature. If you choose to ignore a certain member, you just won't even see their posts. It would be a very nice addition to this forum, IMO.





heavyall said:


> Thanks! I really did look for it, nor sure why I didn't see it before...
> 
> I am now kangaroo-free!





SINC said:


> ^
> 
> What a good idea!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, you must be bored following all that excitement about the Bluenose II.


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> 42,917 member on this forum and below are our NOISY MINORITY.


Hey, BigDL, while you're checking stats, how many of those nearly 43,000 members have posted in the last 12 months? How many of those 43,000 members have even visited in the last 12 months? Quoting statistics without furnishing a frame of reference means squat.

Looking at your stats, 21 of your 36 posts in the last month have been in the weather thread. You actually seem to contribute something meaningful to the conversation there, a capability completely absent in the Canadian Political thread, among others.

Get back to us here when you have something meaningful to contribute, in a manner somewhat less acerbic than usual. Pass the word on to your buddy, Jimbo, too, would ya?

Thx.


----------



## Rps

We seem to be in a rant attack here. I didn't realize this was the House of Commons thread.

In the interest of the Canadian Political thread I have a question for those who frequent here. I have often questioned our political system. I am not sure our Parliament System is relevant today. I also recognize the Republic Syatem has its flaws as well.

So my question to generate discussion and active civil participation is: If you could design the Canadian political system ( all levels) what would it look like and why would you choose that approach?

Your turn...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Rps said:


> We seem to be in a rant attack here. I didn't realize this was the House of Commons thread.
> 
> In the interest of the Canadian Political thread I have a question for those who frequent here. I have often questioned our political system. I am not sure our Parliament System is relevant today. I also recognize the Republic Syatem has its flaws as well.
> 
> So my question to generate discussion and active civil participation is: If you could design the Canadian political system ( all levels) what would it look like and why would you choose that approach?
> 
> Your turn...


I'd advocate the elimination of the senate and a restructuring of Parliament using a proportional representation model. By doing this we would see more diverse perspectives represented in our government and consensus management would be a natural outcome of such a restructuring.


----------



## FeXL

1. Triple E Senate. No more patronage appointments;

2. Right of Recall across the board (municipal, provincial, federal). The bastards need to start representing the people who put them there. Tired of being promised one thing during campaigning & given the shaft once elected;

3. If you leave the party that you campaigned with, for whatever reason, the only thing you can become is Independent until the next election. Party leaders, provincial & federal, cannot switch, period, there must be a by-election. Tired of this BS where you get elected under one flag then pick up another. How does that possibly serve the voter's best interest?

4. Free votes, period. No more of this toe-the-party-line garbage. You serve your constituents, damn it.

Point 3 most recently highlighted by the recent actions of many Wild Rose MLA's, there is no accountability to the voter at any level (municipal, provincial, federal). I'm so mad at them I could spit...


----------



## Rps

Skippy, everyone wants the Senate removed, but you cannot have the law makers and law approves as the same body. An elected Senate, however removes this conflict of interest.

We could write a book on proportional representation depending on what you mean by it, so hat is your view on what proportional representation means.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yes. I recognize that Senate demolition will only be possible with an agreed to constitutional amendment. 

Proportional representation would give the 5 to 10% of Green voters representation in the House. Furthermore, it would be highly unlikely that a majority govt would form without multi-party coalitions. A safer way to govern and to deal with first past the post abuses from dominant parties.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Fun facts from the front page of this forum "Threads: 94,326, Posts: 1,310,049, *Members: 42,917"*
> 
> 42,917 member on this forum and below are our NOISY MINORITY.


Wow! Just, wow.

What an illogical and egotistical conclusion you draw based on the "data" you present.

Whatever makes you feel all "puffed and proud" about yourself.  

How many of those members are still posting here? Hmmm...? And how to you know that the "noisy minority" is not actually in fact among the majority and not the minority?

A completely baseless assertion on your part without any evidence to back up your claim.

As for currently active members I would say (based only on my personal experience of posting here almost every day, which you don't) you and your ilk are currently among the "NOISY MINORITY" and not the other way around.

Your attempt at being "clever" does nothing other than to reveal you own "blinders on" personal political proclivities and prejudice.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> We seem to be in a rant attack here. I didn't realize this was the House of Commons thread.
> 
> In the interest of the Canadian Political thread I have a question for those who frequent here. I have often questioned our political system. I am not sure our Parliament System is relevant today. I also recognize the Republic Syatem has its flaws as well.
> 
> So my question to generate discussion and active civil participation is: If you could design the Canadian political system ( all levels) what would it look like and why would you choose that approach?
> 
> Your turn...


Great post and question Rps!

Well, we are a Confederation by Constitution so I don't think there is any possible reform on that front. The Provinces have their jurisdictions as do the Feds and personally I believe that is the way it should be. With such a vast nation it is completely unreasonable to me that the Feds should have any more power than they currently have and should probably have less. I mean why should we have overarching laws, rules and regulation that apply to *all* regions of the country, unless they are truly "universal".

What is good for Ontario is not necessarily equally good for BC, NFLD and Labrador, or Nunavut. With a country as geologically, meteorologicaly, culturally, etc., etc., etc., diverse as ours it makes no sense at all to have "national strategies" on a plethora of matters as one size does not fit all. That is in part why I cannot support either the NDP or the Liberals because they call for "national strategies" all the time that over step their responsibility, jurisdiction and power of the provinces to be the masters of their own fate.

I have more to say but right now I am short on time so I will post more later.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep more exemplary comments from the Cons -

https://storify.com/kady/bob-dechert-comments-reaction


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep more exemplary comments from the Cons -
> 
> https://storify.com/kady/bob-dechert-comments-reaction


One MP skippy, one MP... just like the Lib MPs (except there were 2) accused of sexual misconduct.

Did you happen to notice that none of us here jumped all over that, like we could have, but have had cooler heads about the matter?

Why don't you every once in a while take a "cooler head" approach? I suspect it will be better for you blood pressure, as well as others here.

Is it really necessary that you post links to everything that you read that speaks in the slightest bit bit negatively about the government or one of its backbenchers?

You seem pathologically obsessed... Maybe take some time to be with your family or watch a movie or something, you may find that the goings on at Parliament Hill really don't affect your well being or sense of it as much as you seem to think they do.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> We seem to be in a rant attack here. I didn't realize this was the House of Commons thread.
> 
> In the interest of the Canadian Political thread I have a question for those who frequent here. I have often questioned our political system. I am not sure our Parliament System is relevant today. I also recognize the Republic Syatem has its flaws as well.
> 
> So my question to generate discussion and active civil participation is: If you could design the Canadian political system ( all levels) what would it look like and why would you choose that approach?
> 
> Your turn...


I believe the Westminster style of governance is the preferred system. Honed over a long period, with traditions when respected is a vital system for the future. Traditions are easier to evolve than rigid rules.

Federally we need only one house to enact laws in my opinion just like all the Provinces. The Supreme Court is the check on the lawfulness of good or poor legislation.

A change in electoral procedures is needed. Elections (Federally and Provincially) should either be elected by a form of proportional representation or majority (50% plus one vote of the electorate with run off election if required) from my point of view.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> Skippy, everyone wants the Senate removed, but you cannot have the law makers and law approves as the same body. An elected Senate, however removes this conflict of interest.
> 
> We could write a book on proportional representation depending on what you mean by it, so hat is your view on what proportional representation means.


 In fact the eastern Provinces had Upper Chambers and got rid of them all, they somehow pass legislation, then how is it, all of the Provinces and Territories, successfully enact legislation without a bicameral system?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> In fact the eastern Provinces had Upper Chambers and got rid of them all, they somehow pass legislation, then how is it, all of the Provinces and Territories, successfully enact legislation without a bicameral system?


The answer is obvious. Because they don't have a bicameral system.

I think everyone understands that a bicameral system isn't necessary to pass legislation.

Cripes democracy isn't even necessary to create/pass legislation.

The provinces could get rid of their Senate because it was within their domain/power to do so. It did not require a constitutional amendment.

Getting rid of the Federal Senate does and that means Quebec has to agree and they are not likely to because they hold a disproportionate amount of power in the Senate.

It isn't as easy as the NDP and Libs like to try and portray. Harper, despite his best intentions found that out all too quickly with his first attempt at Senate reform and when he got shot down by the Liberal dominated Senate of the time he decided, "Well I am going to stack the 2nd Chamber in my favour." Which is exactly what he did and why would any logical person/politician do otherwise?


----------



## heavyall

Our current constitution is a piece of toilet paper, and it should be treated as such. The elected government of the day promised an elected senate, they should just impose it, and tell the SCC (and Quebec) to sit and spin.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> The answer is obvious. Because they don't have a bicameral system.
> 
> I think everyone understands that a bicameral system isn't necessary to pass legislation.
> 
> Cripes democracy isn't even necessary to create/pass legislation.
> 
> The provinces could get rid of their Senate because it was within their domain/power to do so. It did not require a constitutional amendment.
> 
> Getting rid of the Federal Senate does and that means Quebec has to agree and they are not likely to because they hold a disproportionate amount of power in the Senate.
> 
> It isn't as easy as the NDP and Libs like to try and portray. Harper, despite his best intentions found that out all too quickly with his first attempt at Senate reform and when he got shot down by the Liberal dominated Senate of the time he decided, "Well I am going to stack the 2nd Chamber in my favour." Which is exactly what he did and why would any logical person/politician do otherwise?


I personally stood in the "Upper Chambers," of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and PE Island the remnants of the bicameral system that these former colonies/Provinces had. The point, seemingly missed is the Senate can go the way of the Dodo bird as well and we'll be fine.

Constitutional reform will certainly not be led by OGL, who has an acute aversion, to speaking with Provincial Leaders in a group. The Senate can not be dismantled by an edict from on high as the Supreme Court has verified.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes. I recognize that Senate demolition will only be possible with an agreed to constitutional amendment.
> 
> Proportional representation would give the 5 to 10% of Green voters representation in the House. Furthermore, it would be highly unlikely that a majority govt would form without multi-party coalitions. A safer way to govern and to deal with first past the post abuses from dominant parties.


The trouble with proportional representation is that itself creates additional proportional issues. As for coalitions, you have to remember that we do not elect governments in Canada ( I am talking Federally and Provincially here ) we elect Parliaments, which is a significant, and ironically at the same time, subtle difference .... And our Prime Minister or Preems are such only if they have the confidence of the House. So statistically, you could have all the governmental energies selecting a PM or Preem instead of governing.

Now if we had a vote for the leader and an ordinated vote for parties, maybe, but how would you settle ties( which are possible ). I think if we could solve the proportional issue at the municipal level first, then it may have a hope at the Federal and Provinical.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, I can't argue with your points here. But I would like to add something that would be of service to we poor unwashed voters. The issue of the minority government. I would like to see fixed dates and fixed terms for the Federal and Peovincial governments. Like the U.S., such as a 4 year term starting January 1st and the vote would be in November....just like the U.S. This would stop the constant stay elected mentality we see with the fear of losing House Confidence. Sometimes it is in the best interests of the country to pass legislation that is not popular.....this seldom happens in a minority position.


----------



## Rps

Screature you a right on the size of government and the areas interests, wasn't it W.A.C. Bennett who wanted Canada to be divided into 5 regions ..... It certainly makes sense today.


----------



## Rps

heavyall said:


> Our current constitution is a piece of toilet paper, and it should be treated as such. The elected government of the day promised an elected senate, they should just impose it, and tell the SCC (and Quebec) to sit and spin.


Heavy all, our constitution is a fairly new document, it tak s time to work the kinks out, check our brothers and sisters south of the border.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> ...I think if we could solve the proportional issue at the municipal level first, then it may have a hope at the Federal and Provinical.


I am not aware of governance at the municipal level being based on the Westminster model.

I thought all municipal governance was based on incorporation therefore a corporate structure. 

Municipal representatives, in my opinion, should be elected by majority rather than plurality or proportional representation. But then again most people couldn't give a rat's ass about electing municipal representatives therefore it should very difficult to attain majority votes.

The Leader of the Green Party in the New Brunswick Legislature, David ****, has proposed that the vote be given to 16 year olds.



CTVAtlanticNews said:


> Sixteen-year-olds would be able vote in New Brunswick if Green Leader David **** is able to get a private member's bill through the legislature.
> **** has introduced the bill to lower the voting age from 18 to 16.
> The Liberal's house leader says in a news release the issue isn't a priority for the government, but the province will take some time to look at ****'s bill.
> 
> 
> Read more: Greens want to give 16-year-olds the vote in New Brunswick | CTV Atlantic News


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The Leader of the Green Party in the New Brunswick Legislature, David ****, has proposed that the vote be given to 16 year olds.


That's just designed to exploit the greenwashing kids receive in high schools. Leave it at 18 unless the voter is one of the few who enlists in the military before that age.


----------



## Macfury

Any constitution that dies not enshrine the right to private property is a failure.



Rps said:


> Heavy all, our constitution is a fairly new document, it tak s time to work the kinks out, check our brothers and sisters south of the border.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> That's just designed to exploit the greenwashing kids receive in high schools. Leave it at 18 unless the voter is one of the few who enlists in the military before that age.


May, perhaps so. 

However it been hypothesized that people who vote young, tend to be life long voters. So what's the harm with that?


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Our current constitution is a piece of toilet paper, and it should be treated as such. The elected government of the day promised an elected senate, *they should just impose it*, and tell the SCC (and Quebec) to sit and spin.


They cannot in a Constitutional Democracy.

What you are suggesting is Totalitarianism.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I personally stood in the "Upper Chambers," of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and PE Island the remnants of the bicameral system that these former colonies/Provinces had. The point, seemingly missed is the Senate can go the way of the Dodo bird as well and we'll be fine.
> 
> Constitutional reform will certainly not be led by OGL, who has an acute aversion, to speaking with Provincial Leaders in a group. *The Senate can not be dismantled by an edict from on high as the Supreme Court has verified.*


Well yes we know that. It was this Government that actually asked the SCC to rule on the matter.

Not sure what you are on about with that statement.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> The trouble with proportional representation is that itself creates additional proportional issues. As for coalitions, you have to remember that we do not elect governments in Canada ( I am talking Federally and Provincially here ) we elect Parliaments, which is a significant, and ironically at the same time, subtle difference .... And our Prime Minister or Preems are such only if they have the confidence of the House. So statistically, you could have all the governmental energies selecting a PM or Preem instead of governing.
> 
> Now if we had a vote for the leader and an ordinated vote for parties, maybe, but how would you settle ties( which are possible ). I think if we could solve the proportional issue at the municipal level first, then it may have a hope at the Federal and Provinical.


A very good post Rps. You clearly understand some of the subtleties (some of literally thousands) of our current form of government.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> May, perhaps so.
> 
> However it been hypothesized that people who vote young, tend to be life long voters. So what's the harm with that?


Along those lines, why would you not advocate starting at Kindergarten if it creates lifelong voters?


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> FeXL, I can't argue with your points here. But I would like to add something that would be of service to we poor unwashed voters. The issue of the minority government. I would like to see fixed dates and fixed terms for the Federal and Peovincial governments. Like the U.S., such as a 4 year term starting January 1st and the vote would be in November....just like the U.S. This would stop the constant stay elected mentality we see with the fear of losing House Confidence. Sometimes it is in the best interests of the country to pass legislation that is not popular.....this seldom happens in a minority position.


I tend to agree and and in an ideal world I would get rid of Party Whips.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Along those lines, why would you not advocate starting at Kindergarten if it creates lifelong voters?


I would agree that kids in kindergarten be introduced to the concept of voting. 

Also apprise those children of the difference between voting for a brand of soft drink or (insert name of country) "Idol" on TV or some such scheme and voting in a democratic (non-democratic) process to elect a government.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature you a right on the size of government and the areas interests, wasn't it W.A.C. Bennett who wanted Canada to be divided into 5 regions ..... It certainly makes sense today.


Thank you Rps.

In fact it has been said by many academics, policy analysts, politicians, etc., that regions extend even beyond national borders. For example, the Atlantic Provinces have more in common with Maine, New Hampshire and Massachusetts than they do with even Ontario, let alone BC or the Yukon.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> May, perhaps so.
> 
> However it been hypothesized that people who vote young, tend to be life long voters. So what's the harm with that?





Macfury said:


> Along those lines, why would you not advocate starting at Kindergarten if it creates lifelong voters?





BigDL said:


> I would agree that kids in kindergarten be introduced to the concept of voting.
> 
> Also apprise those children of the difference between voting for a brand of soft drink or (insert name of country) "Idol" on TV or some such scheme and voting in a democratic (non-democratic) process to elect a government.


When I was in grade 6 I had a teacher, Miss Montague, who actually put into place in our class a model legislature.

Every month or so we would have a class general meeting to discuss the various issues that we had in the class and school in general. There was an elected President, Vice President and Treasurer. I can't exactly recall the various powers and responsibilities associated with those titles, but needless to say they were extremely limited considering our age and rightly so.

The elected kids could only sit for one meeting as Leaders and then at the beginning of the next meeting we had to re-elect new "Leaders".

That year we also ran the school cafeteria, dispensing milk, selling chips and other snacks. We had to take in money and make change and make sure the cash balanced at the end of the day... Obviously with Miss Montague monitoring us the whole time and she did the final cash balance.

Under her teaching we also supervised kids in grade 1-3 in a park event with prearranged games of all sorts. We explained the rules and sort of acted like referees.

We were given much (relatively speaking to our age) responsibility at a very young age and we all benefited by it.

But to think that anyone under the age of majority should be able to cast a vote is simply preposterous IMO.


----------



## screature

I just have to give a BIG SHOUT OUT to Rps for bringing this subject up and changing the tone of The Canadian Political Thread in these recent posts.

Instead of the usual back and forth partisan banter we are actually talking about substantive issues that are important to the nature of our governance.

Thank you Rps.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> They cannot in a Constitutional Democracy.


You should study the constitution more. They absolutely can, it's just not done. 



> What you are suggesting is Totalitarianism.


Having an unelected body (the SCC) make edicts is totalitarianism. That's what we have now. Having the elected government do what they promised to do, and were elected to do, is real democracy.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> You should study the constitution more. They absolutely can, it's just not done.
> 
> 
> 
> Having an unelected body (the SCC) make edicts is totalitarianism. That's what we have now. Having the elected government do what they promised to do, and were elected to do, is real democracy.


Real democracy is all members of the government elected by a majority (50% plus one vote as a minimum) of the voters in electoral districts. Not as things are today with pluralities.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> *You should study the constitution more. They absolutely can, it's just not done. *
> 
> *Having an unelected (sic) body (the SCC) make edicts is totalitarianism. *That's what we have now. Having the elected government do what they promised to do, and were elected to do, is real democracy.


Show me where?

No it is not, and the Senate does not make "edicts, you are misusing the term, look it up...



> edict |ˈēdikt|
> noun
> an official order or proclamation issued by a person in authority.


No *one* person decides, the Senate still has to *vote* on any legislation that comes before it.

Totalitarianism is where essentially one person gets to decide.You should study the dictionary more. 



> totalitarian |tōˌtaliˈte(ə)rēən|
> adjective
> of or relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state: a totalitarian regime.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Real democracy is all members of the government elected by a majority (50% plus one vote as a minimum) of the voters in electoral districts. Not as things are today with pluralities.


Well that is certainly one interpretation. But far from being the only one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep giving us ammo Hairpiece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep it up Hairpiece -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...5744/?service=mobile&cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Troops going to pot under Hairpiece -

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...while-cocaine-gains-ground-report/#.VJapFP8Dc


----------



## Rps

Skippy many of the issues you have highlighted in the posts above were not solely those of Mr. Harper! The Liberals were just as guilty.

Also, confirmation bias is not a good form of open discourse. You have your own thoughts that we would love to hear.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

True. But time for a change.


----------



## SINC

That too, is just your opinion.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Correct. It will be fun giving this majority the boot in 2015.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Also, confirmation bias is not a good form of open discourse.


Jimbo ain't interested in discourse, period.

He's like one of those yappy Chihuahua's with a small dog complex...


----------



## BigDL

Skippy :clap: you go lad, post as you see fit...just like everyone else does on this board.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Correct. It will be fun giving this majority the boot in 2015.


I am not a Conservative, but I don't see the Cons getting the boot. There may be some singular issues to take issue with them but as a whole are they truly bad enough to throw out ...... I am not so sure, and I am not so sure the other parties have groomed potential ministers. Minority, could be, but I do not see the Cons leaving.


----------



## SINC

^

Words of wisdom to take note of indeed. As long as the Liberals hold on to Trudeau as their leader, it assures that outcome.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Words of wisdom to take note of indeed. As long as the Liberals hold on to Trudeau as their leader, it assures that outcome.


Sinc it isn't Trudeau where I would have my concern, there is a first time for everything, what my concern is the other parties have a paucity of ministerial talent due to lack of canvass and grooming. It is here where a new leader can run past his talents without a strong caucus to rein him or her in.

I see this as a weakness in our system. I would like to see Open selection of Ministers, which don't have to be elected or from the same party.


----------



## SINC

That may be Rp, but Trudeau is the main concern of most folks I know here in the west. Memories of his father, his drug views and opinions on treatment of terrorists leave little trust in the boy wonder.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> That may be Rp, but Trudeau is the main concern of most folks I know here in the west. Memories of his father, his drug views and opinions on treatment of terrorists leave little trust in the boy wonder.


I am not sure what his views really are, he, like his NDP counterpart looks as if they are in pandering mode rather than policy mode. I don't see a structure to their policy ideas .... In fact that is their greatest weakness a lack of true policy. 

We want leaders to lead and get us behind them. The "W" was a highly effective leader even though I disagreed with his policies ... He got laws passed. I don't see that "grit" in Trudeau.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> *I am not sure what his views really are, he, like his NDP counterpart looks as if they are in pandering mode rather than policy mode.* I don't see a structure to their policy ideas .... In fact that is their greatest weakness a lack of true policy.
> 
> We want leaders to lead and get us behind them. The "W" was a highly effective leader even though I disagreed with his policies ... He got laws passed. I don't see that "grit" in Trudeau.


Agreed. I see it every day in QP where the NDP and Libs ask questions to the government that are really only truly being asked to address small special interest groups concerns of their base as if they were issues that are truly national in nature and scope.

Like I implied before, both the NDP and Libs only have bits and pieces of "policy" that are truly national and the ones that they call "national" overstep the jurisdiction and power of the provinces, a la in the past the NEB and the CWB.

They have no coherent vision of policy that is applicable to that which falls *only* under federal jurisdiction. The want to have their cake and eat it too, along with some of the provinces and territories cake as well.


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> Skippy :clap: you go lad, post as you see fit...just like everyone else does on this board.


By all means, post away. Please. Especially those deep, well thought out, one liners.

Illustrate to everyone who passes just how shallow he is...


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, I can't argue with your points here. But I would like to add something that would be of service to we poor unwashed voters. The issue of the minority government. I would like to see fixed dates and fixed terms for the Federal and Peovincial governments. Like the U.S., such as a 4 year term starting January 1st and the vote would be in November....just like the U.S. This would stop the constant stay elected mentality we see with the fear of losing House Confidence.


I have no real issues with a fixed election date, either.



Rps said:


> Sometimes it is in the best interests of the country to pass legislation that is not popular


Can you give me an example?


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> I have no real issues with a fixed election date, either.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you give me an example?


An oldie but a goodie .... Income Tax.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> By all means, post away. Please. Especially those deep, well thought out, one liners.
> 
> Illustrate to everyone who passes just how shallow he is...


FeXL :clap: you go lad, post as you see fit...just like everyone else does on this board.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> FeXL :clap: you go lad, post as you see fit...just like everyone else does on this board.


Hey, everyone here posts as they see fit. It doesn't mean we have to like it or are not going to be critical.

IMO skippy in his persona here is nothing but an internet troll (except for the rare occasion).

Very rarely does he debate. What he does 99% of the time is only meant to provoke without any value added commentary.

At the very least that is just plain lazy and actually reminds me of schoolyard bullies in behaviour.

I expect better from a mature person...

I don't know if skippy has kids or not, but if he does what kind of legacy is he leaving them? Would he be proud to let them see the posts he has made here? Would he suggest that they follow his lead and do as he has done?

Maybe so, but for his possible children I hope not.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Shades of McGuinty. The dickens you say, Hairpiece -

Canada Revenue Agency destroys staffers' texts | Toronto Star


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Shades of McGuinty. The dickens you say, Hairpiece -
> 
> Canada Revenue Agency destroys staffers' texts | Toronto Star


Good idea and long overdue. The information exchanged by CRA employees obviously contains confidential information on the tax returns of ordinary Canadians and as such should be destroyed the minute it is no longer required by the CRA. 

A great policy and appreciated by every Canadian who values their privacy. :clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Not a fan of Hairpiece targeting groups he doesn't agree with using CRA as a political tool.
Good thing this will stop in 2015. Call an election Hairpiece.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not a fan of Hairpiece targeting groups he doesn't agree with using CRA as a political tool.


Are you a fan of Jug Ears doing the very same thing?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Are you a fan of Jug Ears doing the very same thing?


The same as the accusation, but not the same in actuality.

Jug Ears is simply using the IRS to deny or delay opposing political groups tax exempt status.

The Canadian operation is looking at charitable groups using their status to circumvent existing political laws.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not a fan of Hairpiece targeting groups he doesn't agree with using CRA as a political tool.
> Good thing this will stop in 2015. Call an election Hairpiece.


For those of you who are against Mr. Harper and his government becareful what you wish for!


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> For those of you who are against Mr. Harper and his government becareful what you wish for!


They want HOPE and CHANGE!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The same as the accusation, but not the same in actuality.


True. However, there wasn't a hue & cry from Jimbo (or anybody else on the left here) when it was a Democratic leader delaying conservative groups.

Methinks this is far more about simple partisanship than actual justice...


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> They want HOPE and CHANGE!


I'm not so sure we do. Also, governments can provide an atmosphere for change, but hope is our responsibility. We can rant all we want about this government and that leader, but with such a small voter turn out we get what we deserve.


----------



## Macfury

I suspect that this is the nebulous appeal--such as it is--of JT. 



Rps said:


> I'm not so sure we do. Also, governments can provide an atmosphere for change, but hope is our responsibility. We can rant all we want about this government and that leader, but with such a small voter turn out we get what we deserve.


----------



## SINC

As an election draws nearer, more voters than ever will come to realize better the devil they know, not the one they do not and re-elect the Conservatives. The inexperience of the other two choices would have voters making a serious mistake with the future of the country, not to mention any government leader from Quebec again will turn many of them away.


----------



## MacGuiver

SINC said:


> As an election draws nearer, more voters than ever will come to realize better the devil they know, not the one they do not and re-elect the Conservatives. The inexperience of the other two choices would have voters making a serious mistake with the future of the country, not to mention any government leader from Quebec again will turn many of them away.


Never underestimate the power of the "Devil you Know" to win elections. We re-elect Satan in Ontario again and again.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> As an election draws nearer, more voters than ever will come to realize better the devil they know, not the one they do not and re-elect the Conservatives. The inexperience of the other two choices would have voters making a serious mistake with the future of the country, not to mention any government leader from Quebec again will turn many of them away.


In that vein Sinc:

Half (48%) of Canadians Believe Conservative Majority Government is Working Well

Ipsos.com


----------



## screature

*I am not against coalitions in priniple...*

*But*...

The electorate has to know in advance who/what they are voting for, i.e. it needs to say on the voting ballot I am voting for Joe Schmo (Coalition NDP- Liberal candidate).

Without that in print as an option there is no legitimate coalition government IMO.

Also the Leader of the coalition should be known in advance of the election, not afterwards.

Yes we do in this country elect a Parliament and not a Government and that is a big part of the problem with our current form of democracy IMO.

We should not be electing a Parliament that can then decide behind closed doors who forms the government and who is the Leader of said government as Dion and Layton tried to do only 8 weeks after an election. What a travesty of democracy that would have been, thank god it didn't happen.

Also just to add there should be no "crossing the floor" whether it be an MP/MPP/MLA/MNA.

If the incumbent wants to "switch sides" they should resign and run in a bi-election. That would be democratic, without that bi-election it is completely undemocratic.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good to go. Looking forward to 2015 -

https://vine.co/v/OHM6dz1ZnEe


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> As an election draws nearer, more voters than ever will come to realize better the devil they know, not the one they do not and re-elect the Conservatives. The inexperience of the other two choices would have voters making a serious mistake with the future of the country, not to mention any government leader from Quebec again will turn many of them away.


Just thought I would pass along my best wishes to everyone as we approach the new year and an election.

Keeping in the spirit of recent posts: Voting for "hairpiece" will probably result in some form of brush cut, if you lean to the NDP you will more than likely have a crew cut, the Liberals, well we all know that's a "to pay", and the Block, I guess they will have to "mullet" over. Have fun


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

What's your next amateur cut-and-paste project? Making Justin Trudeau look like a man?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 52665





Macfury said:


> What's your next amateur cut-and-paste project? Making Justin Trudeau look like a man?


Yep skippy couldn't get much more lame than he did with that one...

Pathetic.

He seems to want to discredit the PM but all he does in his addled mind is to discredit himself... it is truly sad that he can't see that. His children will though, if he ever has any.

I can't imagine any woman who would want to be with such an ill tempered man filled with so much baggage, obsessed with another man so much so that he is all that he ever talks about.

It must be difficult living in skippy's brain.


----------



## SINC

Hey, when you have no basis for an informed discussion, you resort to name calling and ridicule, don'tcha know.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep your hat on Hairpiece. You'll need it in 2015. The year the lid comes off.


----------



## Macfury

Of all of the Photoshopped artwork out there, why do you consistently pick out the most amateurish, Jimbo? There's funny stuff out there--make some effort.


----------



## FeXL

Effort takes so damn much...effort.

It should be patently clear that Jimbo is very much into conservation of both motion and thought...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

2015! Goodbye Hairpiece. 

http://www.pressprogress.ca/en/post...ated-wonderfully-veterans-call-her-delusional


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Support the troops in 2015.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

I LOVE those attack ads!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Peterborough's newsmaker of the year? None other than former Hairpiece point man and criminal Dean DelMastro - 2015 bring it on.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More info for the support the troops file. Happy new year from Team Hairpiece -

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/polit...-some-ex-soldiers-exaggerating-their-injuries


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hairpiece interference? The dickens you say -

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10694737


----------



## Macfury

ThreeHundredEight.com

Latest polls show Conservatives heading for another victory, following redistricting in the successful provinces.


----------



## FeXL

I hope they follow it to the letter, right to the bitter end. Look what it did for the Senate races...

Federal NDP, Liberals take a leaf from Obama playbook



> New Democrats and Liberals, in a bid to catch up with the Conservatives’ long-held advantage in digital and data campaigning, have been looking south, to U.S. Democrats in particular, for advice on how best to fight the next election here.


Bring it!!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Who is the "sun" supposed to be. Ed Broadbent?


----------



## FeXL

The mark of a 4th rate political cartoonist is to leave the reader wondering who the caricatures represent & exactly what the hell his point was.

Leave it to the Grope & Flail...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> The mark of a 4th rate political cartoonist is to leave the reader wondering who the caricatures represent & exactly what the hell his point was.
> 
> Leave it to the Grope & Flail...


Now that the mark of the 4th rate has been definitely established. 

The questions that requires an immediate riposte;
•the mark of a 3rd rate political cartoonist?

•The mark of a 2nd rate political cartoonist?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Now that the mark of the 4th rate has been definitely established.
> 
> The questions that requires an immediate riposte;
> •the mark of a 3rd rate political cartoonist?
> 
> •The mark of a 2nd rate political cartoonist?


I doubt many would bother responding to such drivel, but good luck with your trolling attempt.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I doubt many would bother responding to such drivel, but good luck with your trolling attempt.


So...it takes a troll to know a troll?


----------



## Macfury

It doesn't take a troll to know a troll--any dating service in New Brunswick can set you up.



BigDL said:


> So...it takes a troll to know a troll?


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> It doesn't take a troll to know a troll--any dating service in New Brunswick can set you up.


Odd how there is so much action, according to them, on MacDiscussion that they can't stay away and yet find the need to troll here out of sheer boredom there.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Odd how there is so much action, according to them, on MacDiscussion that they can't stay away and yet find the need to troll here out of sheer boredom there.


What are you on, about now? 

Must be a natural state like many of your ilk, that is just make $#!t up.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> What are you on, about now?
> 
> Must be a natural state like many of your ilk, that is just make $#!t up.


Don't get it? I assume since you and two others talk to yourselves over on Magic and a mere handful more on MacDiscussions that there is so little happening over there that you get bored and come over here to try and stir things up with inane pokes to try and provoke people. That is what we call a troll.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Have the UN monitor our elections In 2015 -
http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...s_low_before_2015_federal_vote_delacourt.html


----------



## Macfury

Anyone who sees the UN as a moral authority is something of a simpleton.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Have the UN monitor our elections In 2015 -
> http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...s_low_before_2015_federal_vote_delacourt.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Salut! 'airpiece.

FTQ planning strategic vote to kick out Harper in upcoming election | Montreal Gazette


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Anyone who sees the UN as a moral authority is something of a simpleton.


That would be an understatement!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Anyone who sees the UN as a moral authority is something of a simpleton.



How about the dimwit that don't know about Elections Canada's expertise monitoring elections for the UN?


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How about the dimwit that don't know about Elections Canada's expertise monitoring elections for the UN?


This would be the same Elections Canada that failed to catch the Liberbal Sponsorship Scandal of 2004, the In and Out Scandal of 2007, and the Robocall Scandal........ Oh, what about the alleged vote fixing in Afghanistan ... Wasn't Elections Canada there as well.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Correct! The same org. With Hairpiece's gutting of services they've been affected too. As the article says Canadians are increasingly concerned about vote rigging. We need help to make sure 2015 is clean.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Correct! The same org. With Hairpiece's gutting of services they've been affected too. As the article says Canadians are increasingly concerned about vote rigging. We need help to make sure 2015 is clean.


Congratulations Skippy! Finally some actual discussion. I think Canadians are more concerned about the representative factor of our electoral process than vote rigging. We could take a poll here but under our system I think vote rigging is harder todo and has a lessor impact than under some others. My concern would be at the Party level, where new leaders a selected in-house. That is more of a concern for me. I offer a small list:

Brian Mulroney, Kim Campbell, John Turner, "Ig-not-enough", and the Green's May.

Much to your dismay, Harper was probably selected by the most democratic process.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You I can discuss with. Yes I realise Hairpiece was elected. I sense the dream of long term Hairpiece rule is coming to an end. Hence concern for voter suppression techniques by the Hairpiece govt.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You I can discuss with. Yes I realise Hairpiece was elected. I sense the dream of long term Hairpiece rule is coming to an end. Hence concern for voter suppression techniques by the Hairpiece govt.


Well, the first rule of any government is to be elected, not to govern. So Harper is in legacy mode right now, but he is on the way out I think. Once this election is over a transition will take place.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes I realise Hairpiece was elected. I sense the dream of long term Hairpiece rule is coming to an end. Hence concern for voter suppression techniques by the Hairpiece govt.


Parties of all stripes have engaged in voter-suppression of a minor sort at the riding level. How will the UN change that?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Salut! 'airpiece.
> 
> FTQ planning strategic vote to kick out Harper in upcoming election | Montreal Gazette


If you think that winning the hearts and minds of Quebecers is part of Harper's electoral strategy you are a completely ignorant of what it takes to form government in a modern Canada. The last election proved it.

Harper does not need to win Quebec to form government. They are becoming less and less relevant to form the federal government... as it should be.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Congratulations Skippy! Finally some actual discussion. *I think Canadians are more concerned about the representative factor of our electoral process than vote rigging. We could take a poll here but under our system I think vote rigging is harder todo and has a lessor impact than under some others. My concern would be at the Party level, where new leaders a selected in-house. That is more of a concern for me.* I offer a small list:
> 
> Brian Mulroney, Kim Campbell, John Turner, "Ig-not-enough", and the Green's May.
> 
> Much to your dismay, Harper was probably selected by the most democratic process.


Bang on Rps. I agree.


----------



## SINC

Does a federal political party having a leader from Quebec, once seen as a distinct advantage as I recall, now turned into a very real disadvantage in 2015? I wonder. But I do know that having a leader from Quebec sure seems to be a big disadvantage in western Canada. Does it affect voters in Ontario the same way?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Does it affect voters in Ontario the same way?


It affects this one.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Imagine Laurier with a hairpiece.


----------



## Macfury

Laurier would look almost as good as Stephen Harper if he'd had hair! I imagine Harper will one day be honoured on Canadian currency.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Cheers to an excellent 2015!

Mike Duffy, Dean Del Mastro and other political figures go to court in 2015 - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Take it to the Supreme Court!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Cheers to an excellent 2015!
> 
> Mike Duffy, Dean Del Mastro and other political figures go to court in 2015 - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Does a federal political party having a leader from Quebec, once seen as a distinct advantage as I recall, now turned into a very real disadvantage in 2015? I wonder. But I do know that having a leader from Quebec sure seems to be a big disadvantage in western Canada. Does it affect voters in Ontario the same way?


Not sure if it does, but you cannot ignore the potential seat count.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


>


What a ridiculous post.

The Macdonald-Laurier Institute, published a paper citing he Supreme Court of Canada as being the Policy Maker of the Year... which they should not be.

So much for the addle minded graphic you just posted and your appreciation of it..

New study finds that the Supreme Court’s rulings over the past year will spark a lasting impact on public policy and on the top Court’s relationship with the federal government.

Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, it shows that the SCC is not in cahoots with the Harper Government, despite you your lame attempts to portray it otherwise.

Do you ever actually read anything other than headlines and memes and actually dig deeper, I think not as your bias blinds you to the truth.



> New study finds that the Supreme Court’s rulings over the past year will spark a lasting impact on public policy and on the top Court’s relationship with the federal government.
> 
> OTTAWA, Nov. 27, 2014 – Senate reform. Canada’s prostitution laws. A public dispute with the Prime Minister.MLI_SupremeCourt_NewFinal_Cover
> 
> The Supreme Court of Canada was not short on making headlines in 2014. But what will be the lasting impact of the activities from Canada’s top court over the past year?
> 
> According to a newly-released paper from the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, the headlines weren’t misleading: 2014 was an historic year for the Supreme Court, both in the rulings it handed down and in its relationship with the federal government.
> 
> The study, written by MLI Senior Fellow Benjamin Perrin, declares the Supreme Court of Canada the “Policy-Maker of the Year” for 2014.
> 
> Perrin selected 10 of the SCC’s most important decisions released between November 2013 and October 2014 to determine whether it was an extraordinary year for the Court.
> 
> During that time, the court released decisions that struck down Canada’s prostitution laws, made a first-time ruling of Aboriginal title, rejected a government nomination for the Supreme Court and raised the bar for reforming the Senate.
> 
> Based on his analysis of these and other decisions, Perrin reaches three main conclusions:
> 
> The policy and legal impact of the Supreme Court of Canada’s decisions of the last year are significant and likely enduring;
> 
> The Supreme Court of Canada was a remarkably united institution with consensus decisions on these significant cases being the norm, and dissenting opinions rare; and
> The federal government has an abysmal record of losses on significant cases, with a clear win in just one in 10 of them.
> 
> The most significant decisions, Perrin says, relate to the rules surrounding how to amend the Constitution. The SCC’s ruling on changing the composition of either the Supreme Court or the Senate will entrench both institutions as “virtually untouchable”.
> 
> Ben PerrinThe declaration of Aboriginal land title will have far-reaching consequences for provincial control over natural resources, while the ruling on prostitution laws is likely to change future interpretations of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> Perrin also found no evidence to support the view that Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s appointees are carving out their own ideological space on the Court.
> 
> His analysis showed that the court reached a consensus decision in 80 per cent of these cases – higher than the average over the past decade.
> 
> “There is no evidence whatsoever of any observable split in the Court’s decisions on significant issues between the six judges appointed by Prime Minister Harper and the three judges appointed by previous prime ministers”, Perrin says.
> 
> On the federal government’s remarkable string of losses at the SCC, Perrin believes it’s time for a rigorous “post-mortem” of what went wrong. Did the government, for example, receive bad legal advice? Could the government have done a better job of arguing the case before the court?
> 
> “Until this is exhaustively done, it would be premature, as some commentators have suggested, to conclude that there is a fundamental rift in values between the federal government and the Court”, says Perrin.
> 
> However, he believes it’s important for Canada that the government take a hard look back at 2014.
> 
> “If the norm becomes a united Court handing down losses to the federal government, there is a risk of increasing tensions and frustrations by the federal government where the Supreme Court of Canada is viewed as an impediment to legal and policy reforms – this would not be healthy for our democracy or the proper functioning of either body".
> 
> To read the full report, click here.


The graphic you posted is lame to the extreme as are you if you believe it.


----------



## screature

*


Rps said:



Well, the first rule of any government is to be elected, not to govern. So Harper is in legacy mode right now, but he is on the way out I think. Once this election is over a transition will take place.

Click to expand...

*I agree.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Not sure if it does, but you cannot ignore the potential seat count.


Of course Quebec matters, but the recent election just proved you don't need to win Quebec to form a majority federal government. 

That is just an historical fact.

IMO until Quebec forms a truly federalist party without pandering to the separatists, nothing much is going to change.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Of course Quebec matters, but the recent election just proved you don't need to win Quebec to form a majority federal government.
> 
> That is just an historical fact.
> 
> IMO until Quebec forms a truly federalist party without pandering to the separatists, nothing much is going to change.


Again, I am not so sure. If things are going well why rock the boat, but in rough waters look out ... That is Quebec in a nutshell.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. Shake em up. We'll need Western reps in the new govt after 2015 election. Bring it on!

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/opinion/enbridge-approval-could-shake-conservative-majority-2015


----------



## Macfury

That was some of the best wailing and gnashing of teeth I've heard in some time. Find more of that had wringing!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. Shake em up. We'll need Western reps in the new govt after 2015 election. Bring it on!
> 
> Enbridge approval could shake up Conservative majority in 2015 | Vancouver Observer


----------



## FeXL

With Native land claims totalling something like 110% of the area of BC, how can anything they say be taken seriously? Throw in some Greenpeace Nazca Line fruit loops & whackos, along with a few Global Warmists, an Elizabeth May supporter or two, yeah, that's a completely credible opposition with no axe to grind at all.

The petroleum is coming out of the oil sands, boys & girls, like it or not. There are buyers waiting the world over. Pipelines will be built to transport it, whether to the US, BC or Central Canada.

Hands up, who wants the jobs?

Any serious politician who campaigns against the pipelines will be campaigning against job creation, something most of the provinces & states involved in the construction of the pipeline can ill afford. As stupid as many of these guys in office is, I'll wager not one of them will shoot themselves in the foot over this.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Again, I am not so sure. If things are going well why rock the boat, but in rough waters look out ... That is Quebec in a nutshell.


Sorry Rps, I don't think you understood my point, or if you did you only acknowledged half of what I am talking about.

I have lived in Quebec almost all my life and while what you say has some merit it is far from being that black and white or simplistic IMO.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Sorry Rps, I don't think you understood my point, or if you did you only acknowledged half of what I am talking about.
> 
> I have lived in Quebec almost all my life and while what you say has some merit it is far from being that black and white or simplistic IMO.


Screature, politics is quite simple, find out what the people think they want and promise it to them. As long as the economy is going well and things are fine in the province chances are there will be no radical change .... But I still say if things start to get unhinged anything can catch the publics eye .... This is relevant to all provinces not just Quebec. Quebec, if it consolidates its vote will determine the next government.

So the battle ground will be whom to vote for, the pandering NDP, the Liberals, or horror of horrors the Conservatives. The Bloc are not what they were, but they aren't dead either. So between now and election time ( and if I were Harper I would drop the writ tomorrow ) much can happen. But as you suggest, under the current course, the Libs might suck the air out of the NDP hopes, which evens the playing field a little, which helps the Cons out west. Ontario will probably go Conservative .... But the GTA may prove interesting!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh Hairpiece.....


----------



## Macfury

Duffy will embarrass himself and the case will quickly be forgotten. Looking forward to it!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Looks as if Hairpiece is going to pull the plug on Fantino today.

Perhaps a small victory depending on his replacement and a change in policy.


----------



## Macfury

I wonder which position Fantino will be promoted to?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Says Ass. Minister. 😄

Now who appointed him? Oh yeah....Hairpiece.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Shrewdly done, Mr. Harper!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Cheap oil is going to kill all of these ridiculous green energy programs--how about some green tears for Elizabeth May and Justin Trudeau!


----------



## CubaMark

*Julian Fantino loses his job as Veterans Affairs Minister*










_Julian Fantino, the embattled Veterans Affairs minister, was demoted back to his former billet as associate minister of Defence. The move came after weeks of negative publicity that followed a critical report from the Auditor General, which said veterans with PTSD face an excessively long wait for help.

Erin O’Toole, a former air force captain who has been rolled out as spokesman on the veterans’ file, has been promoted to Cabinet after just two years as an MP.

Mr. O’Toole was elected as MP for Durham after Bev Oda retired from politics. She was one of just three Conservatives to have been booted from Cabinet by Mr. Harper (the others were Helena Guergis and Maxime Bernier). The fact that Mr. Fantino will still sit around the Cabinet table is testimony to the Prime Minister’s aversion to being told what to do by anyone — far less the opposition and the media._

(National Post)


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I wonder which position Fantino will be promoted to?


He was *demoted* to Junior Minister of Defence you know Erin O'tool's old position. O'toole *was promoted* to head Fantino's old Ministry. 

We shall see if this too little too late or not.


----------



## Macfury

Late to the dance once again, CM.



CubaMark said:


> *Julian Fantino loses his job as Veterans Affairs Minister*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Julian Fantino, the embattled Veterans Affairs minister, was demoted back to his former billet as associate minister of Defence. The move came after weeks of negative publicity that followed a critical report from the Auditor General, which said veterans with PTSD face an excessively long wait for help.
> 
> Erin O’Toole, a former air force captain who has been rolled out as spokesman on the veterans’ file, has been promoted to Cabinet after just two years as an MP.
> 
> Mr. O’Toole was elected as MP for Durham after Bev Oda retired from politics. She was one of just three Conservatives to have been booted from Cabinet by Mr. Harper (the others were Helena Guergis and Maxime Bernier). The fact that Mr. Fantino will still sit around the Cabinet table is testimony to the Prime Minister’s aversion to being told what to do by anyone — far less the opposition and the media._
> 
> (National Post)


----------



## Macfury

Too late for what?



BigDL said:


> He was *demoted* to Junior Minister of Defence you know Erin O'tool's old position. O'toole *was promoted* to head Fantino's old Ministry.
> 
> We shall see if this too little too late or not.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Late to the dance once again, CM.


Huh? How so? 

Skippy mentioned before noon that it appeared that he was going to be canned, and you followed up, wondering to what desk he would be "promoted".

No-one posted the actual news item with details.

So how does that make me "late to the dance"?

You're weird.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL was undoubtedly pleased to see the latest items on CM's Retro News Network.



CubaMark said:


> Huh? How so?
> 
> Skippy mentioned before noon that it appeared that he was going to be canned, and you followed up, wondering to what desk he would be "promoted".
> 
> No-one posted the actual news item with details.
> 
> So how does that make me "late to the dance"?
> 
> You're weird.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hairpiece could use this helmet on the election trail this year -
http://www.igrowlaser.com/themes/default/resources/video/see_how_it_works/see_how_it_works.mp4


----------



## SINC

^

It's painfully obvious when ya got nuttin'.


----------



## Macfury

When Jimbo posted that picture of himself a few years back, his hair looked exactly like Stephen Harper's. Go figure.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> When Jimbo posted that picture of himself a few years back, his hair looked exactly like Stephen Harper's. Go figure.


He had Harper's blue eyes too.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> He had Harper's blue eyes too.


Separated at birth?


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Separated at birth?


Two peas in a pod?


----------



## Macfury

The hair apparent?



SINC said:


> Two peas in a pod?


----------



## CubaMark

*Should Canada cease trade with Saudi Arabia? *

*Canada-Saudi arms deal has 'significant risk'*



The Canadian government promoted it as the "largest advanced manufacturing export win" in the country's history.

The deal, announced in February, will see Canada's division of General Dynamics Land Systems build more than $10bn worth of light armoured vehicles (LAVs) and associated equipment for Saudi Arabia. Canadian Minister of International Trade Ed Fast touted the "landmark" contract as a way to benefit hundreds of local supply firms and create thousands of advanced manufacturing jobs, particularly in the populous region of southern Ontario.

But critics contend the Saudi deal represents a dangerous escalation in Canada's willingness to supply military equipment to repressive regimes, and a lack of regard for what impact the equipment could have on the ground - particularly in light of a new report showing Saudi leads the Middle East in military spending.

"Under Canada's own guidelines, this sale should not have gone forward, and in the future similar sales should not go forward," said Kenneth Epps, senior programme officer with Project Ploughshares, a Canadian non-governmental organisation that advocates non-violence. Epps, who has been tracking Canada's global weapons sales for decades, called the Saudi deal unprecedented in scope.

(Al Jazeera)


----------



## Macfury

> "Under Canada's own guidelines, this sale should not have gone forward, and in the future similar sales should not go forward," said Kenneth Epps, senior programme officer with Project Ploughshares, a Canadian non-governmental organisation that advocates non-violence. Epps, who has been tracking Canada's global weapons sales for decades, called the Saudi deal unprecedented in scope.


Project Ploughshares would have objected to the sale of a slingshot...



> ...particularly in light of a new report showing Saudi leads the Middle East in military spending.


That's why they're offering contracts to Canada...BECAUSE they're spending.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> *Screature, politics is quite simple, find out what the people think they want and promise it to them. As long as the economy is going well and things are fine in the province chances are there will be no radical change ....* But I still say if things start to get unhinged anything can catch the publics eye .... This is relevant to all provinces not just Quebec. *Quebec, if it consolidates its vote will determine the next government.*
> 
> So the battle ground will be whom to vote for, the pandering NDP, the Liberals, or horror of horrors the Conservatives. The Bloc are not what they were, but they aren't dead either. So between now and election time ( and if I were Harper I would drop the writ tomorrow ) much can happen. But as you suggest, under the current course, the Libs might suck the air out of the NDP hopes, which evens the playing field a little, which helps the Cons out west. Ontario will probably go Conservative .... But the GTA may prove interesting!


Sorry Rps but due to my going on two decades now of of direct experience working at Parliament I think I have a pretty good grasp on the nature of politics and don't need to be "schooled" on such matters. That part of your post comes across as being directly condescend to me as by now I think you are/should be aware of at least part of my working history since I have made it known here.

Just to add further, the statement that "*politics is quite simple"*, is very, very far from being the truth. If it were we would not have virtually every major post secondary institution worldwide providing Degree programs in Political Science, a plethora of political "think tanks", NGOs, special interest lobby groups, etc., etc., etc.

The assertion that "politics is quite simple" is quite baseless and unfounded in theory, practice and historically. Wars have been fought with countless millions of lives lost because of politics, that is a fact. You do a disservice to the truth by making such a statement.

The statement that "politics is quite simple, find out what *the people* think they want and promise it to them" could be made in nations that are primarily homogeneous in nature where *one* racial, religious or any other group that you choose forms the majority and even then it would not reflect the whole truth. It could simply indicate a tyranny of the majority and not whether there or not there are moral grounds for a legitimate democratic government, a la North Korea just as one example.

How many modern countries do you know where that such a definition of "the people" exists? I think in the modern world you will find very few. "The people" certainly doesn't exist even within even a small (population wise) country such as Canada.

Politics is very complex and complicated indeed and not simple at all. 

Quebec is not politically like the rest of Canada, they are an anomaly in Canada and thus why they were granted "distinct society" status.

Just think back to the FLQ crisis, Official bilingualism, and the referendums in Quebec.

None of these had anything to do with the economy of Canada or Quebec at the time but had everything to do with addressing the formation of a Quebecois "Nation".



> *Quebec, if it consolidates its vote will determine the next government.*


I completely disagree. Ontario, if it consolidates its vote will determine the next government, the numbers of seats involved proves my point.

As I said before, the last election just proved you can form a majority Government in Canada without winning Quebec. That is just an indisputable fact.

The real battleground for which party forms the next Federal Government is in Ontario and not Quebec, no ifs ands or doubts IMO.


----------



## Rps

Screature, you should know me by now that I don't condescend anyone, so from me to you no worries. And I will agree to disagree on whether politics is simple or hard, again no attack intended. But I will hold to my opinion that Quebec will determine the outcome ... In fact, it did in the last election ... It's 54 seats not going to the Liberals split the opposition such that the Conservatives won such a large number of seats else where. If the Liberals could have picked up say half of Quebec's seats ( which in years prior to the Bloc were not uncommon ) things would be quite different. So, in a way, we both appear to agree on point but from a different perspective.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

This is what editorial cartooning has been reduced to. A lazy ass cookie-cutter scenario in which you can place any politician. 

And NO, you can't do that.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> *Screature, you should know me by now that I don't condescend anyone, so from me to you no worries. And I will agree to disagree on whether politics is simple or hard, again no attack intended.* But I will hold to my opinion that Quebec will determine the outcome ... In fact, it did in the last election ... It's 54 seats not going to the Liberals split the opposition such that the Conservatives won such a large number of seats else where.* If the Liberals could have picked up say half of Quebec's seats ( which in years prior to the Bloc were not uncommon ) things would be quite different.* So, in a way, we both appear to agree on point but from a different perspective.


Fair enough Rps but your statement "politics is easy" with you knowing my work did strike me as being condescending, for the reasons I already stated and many more. 

Also just to split hairs, there was no mention of politics being "hard"... But that being said being involved in politics is very hard. Hard on the body, hard on the psyche and hard on family life just to mention a few ways in which it is hard life, filled with long hours that most people would not work.

But my point was not about it being hard, but about politics being complicated and complex and not simple.

We will obviously have to agree to disagree but I do have to wonder from what personal experience you have of politics that leads you to refer to it as being "simple". I sincerely don't know where you are coming from and based on what that you make that statement.



> If the Liberals could have picked up say half of Quebec's seats ( which in years prior to the Bloc were not uncommon ) things would be quite different.


Of course it *could* have been much different, that is why politics is not simple. Remove "Bon Jack" from the equation and a multitude of other factors and things could have been very different indeed.

Regarding the vote in Quebec being the determining factor in the 2015 election we will indeed have to agree to disagree. Ontario is more seat rich and also more volatile in terms of possibilities with 3 parties in play. In Quebec there effectively only 2, the Libs and NDP. I don't know many people who expect the NDP to repeat their performance of 2011 but I also don't think the Libs will gain that many more seats due to the bad taste of the Trudeau brand in the province.

Time will tell and it will certainly be interesting.

As Dr. G. says... paix mon amis.


----------



## screature

duplicate post.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Roll out the barrel -

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...-td-forecasts/article22424125/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo, did I mention that your hairpiece looks a lot like Stephen Harper's?


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Roll out the barrel -


So, jes' askin'...

Where do you s'pose we'd be in two years if Shiny Pony's outfit was currently at the reins?


----------



## Macfury

We'd be harnessing the wind power pouring out of JT's cake hole...



FeXL said:


> So, jes' askin'...
> 
> Where do you s'pose we'd be in two years if Shiny Pony's outfit was currently at the reins?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> So, jes' askin'...
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you s'pose we'd be in two years if Shiny Pony's outfit was currently at the reins?



Not sure. The Libs are silent on policy announcements. A matter of timing.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not sure. The Libs are silent on policy announcements. A matter of timing.


Nothing is better than something. eh? Dream big!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Competent team assembled. Anything would be an improvement over the Hairpiece nasties.


----------



## Macfury

Good intentions, eh? Which of JT's team members are you most excited about?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Competent team assembled. Anything would be an improvement over the Hairpiece nasties.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Stephen Bronfman.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not sure. The Libs are silent on policy announcements. A matter of timing.


Lemme feed you some breaking news: a helluva lot worse, financially, than we currently are.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> Lemme feed you some breaking news: a helluva lot worse, financially, than we currently are.



I doubt that. Fiscal mgmt would not have been dissimilar to Hairpieces. 

No cut to GST. No funding snowmobile clubs and a few other choice programs.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Stephen Bronfman.


He wants to enrich Canada by inheriting its wealth instead of earning it?


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> No funding snowmobile clubs and a few other choice programs.


The CBC? beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I believe the Liberal cuts to the CBC back in 1995 were larger than Hairpieces. The big problem for CBC TV is the loss of Hockey and associated ad revenue. In the streaming era traditional TV is losing its allure.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I believe the Liberal cuts to the CBC back in 1995 were larger than Hairpieces.


You are correct, sir! A whopping 33%. This is why I never really minded having Chretien as PM. However, JT has neither the political savvy nor intellect of Chretien.


----------



## FeXL

OK, so we've established that, fiscally, we're not that far apart.

Wherein lies the rub?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> JT has neither the political savvy nor intellect of Chretien.



I believe the assembled team will adequately fill the intellect void. On the political savvy side I'm not sure you are right. He's an adept networker for sure. He has shown political smarts whether his own or his teams.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

There's a very long list of atrocities that Hairpiece is at fault for. The republican nature of Hairpiece has rubbed the majority of CDNs the wrong way. He got a majority that he did not deserve. At a minimum Hairpiece will be forced to deal with a minority situation after the election. 

My sense is the electorate will embrace change. Canadians are not republicans.


----------



## Macfury

Americans embraced"change" and they got Obama. Most of them are not happy about that.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> There's a very long list of atrocities that Hairpiece is at fault for. The republican nature of Hairpiece has rubbed the majority of CDNs the wrong way. He got a majority that he did not deserve. At a minimum Hairpiece will be forced to deal with a minority situation after the election.
> 
> My sense is the electorate will embrace change. Canadians are not republicans.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The U.S. is not Canada. And the U.S. population is more politically divided and ill-represented than Canada's. 

Hairpiece's jig is up.


----------



## Macfury

Stop with the "hairpiece" comments already, Jimbo--your hair looks just like Harper's.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The U.S. is not Canada. And the U.S. population is more politically divided and ill-represented than Canada's.
> 
> Hairpiece's jig is up.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> OK, so we've established that, fiscally, we're not that far apart.
> 
> Wherein lies the rub?


Chretien promised in his election campaign to restore "full and stable" funding for the CBC, so while he did the right thing, he lied about it.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He has shown political smarts whether his own or his teams.


I disagree.

Every time his handlers let him loose he falls flat on his face or exchanges one foot in his mouth for another.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Every time his handlers let him loose he falls flat on his face or exchanges one foot in his mouth for another.


It's pretty easy to pick out JT's obvious shortcomings, but it is extremely difficult to pick out people who appear to be smart enough not to vote for him.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> Every time his handlers let him loose he falls flat on his face or exchanges one foot in his mouth for another.



Yes he has made several gaffs. I wouldn't say always though. For what it's worth the gaffs have had little sway in the polls. The thought of another Harper majority scares non-republicans. I'm pretty sure the CDN public is now immune to the nasties attack ads. The jig is up.


----------



## MacGuiver

SINC said:


> It's pretty easy to pick out JT's obvious shortcomings, but it is extremely difficult to pick out people who appear to be smart enough not to vote for him.


Exactly. After the last Ontario election it confirms that stupidity is rampant. A vapid pretty boy PM is just the ticket to win their vote.


----------



## Macfury

I was just speaking to a friend of mine, who is a dyed-in-the-wool Toronto Liberal who does not like Stephen Harper, but says he can't bring himself to vote for JT. I was rather surprised by that, yet anecdotally I seem to be hearing it quite often these days.



MacGuiver said:


> Exactly. After the last Ontario election it confirms that stupidity is rampant. A vapid pretty boy PM is just the ticket to win their vote.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The Ontario electorate wasn't stupid enough to vote for the alternatives offered. You are mistaken if you believe the Liberal makeover is simply cosmetic.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I was just speaking to a friend of mine, who is a dyed-in-the-wool Toronto Liberal who does not like Stephen Harper, but says he can't bring himself to vote for JT. I was rather surprised by that, yet anecdotally I seem to be hearing it quite often these days.



Yep. I know some who share the concern, however, when confronted with another Harper majority, they will not be voting CPC. I also know people who will be strategic-voting to limit vote splitting and allow the CPC to come through with wins. 

Majority govt will require 170 plus seats in the next parliament.


----------



## MacGuiver

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Ontario electorate wasn't stupid enough to vote for the alternatives offered. You are mistaken if you believe the Liberal makeover is simply cosmetic.


The chairs on the Titanic have been moved around but we're still on the Titanic.


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo, at last we're having a discussion and I appreciate that. How do you think the increased seat count will affect the Libs? I figure all of the Albertan seats will go Conservative.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. I know some who share the concern, however, when confronted with another Harper majority, they will not be voting CPC. I also know people who will be strategic-voting to limit vote splitting and allow the CPC to come through with wins.
> 
> Majority govt will require 170 plus seats in the next parliament.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good question. Those seats are going to be heavily contested. My own riding was redrawn to exclude a vast rural area. Its been Conservative since 2000. Losing the rural votes gives the Liberals a hand. 

It will strongly depend on how well the local riding associations are organized. The CPC riding associations are generally well funded. Libs and NDP not so much. 

I travel a lot in Canada and I sense change is in order. 

It's no secret that the elections will be won or lost in the suburban rings around our large cities. 

I predict a Liberal win for Harvey Locke in Alberta. 

Quebec will vote Liberal.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Quebec will vote Liberal.


Why do you think so? Clearly, the NDP vote last election was part of the BQ implosion. Is the BQ a spent force, and why will these voters turn to the Liberals?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Why do you think so? Clearly, the NDP vote last election was part of the BQ implosion. Is the BQ a spent force, and why will these voters turn to the Liberals?



BQ has become embarrassing even to nationalists. Layton is gone and so will most of those NDP seats. Quebec will be watching what Ontario does and will join the wave.


----------



## FeXL

macfury said:


> jimbo, at last we're having a discussion and i appreciate that.


+1


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I predict a Liberal win for Harvey Locke in Alberta.


Not that it means anything but I'd never heard of him.

A Liberal being elected in Calgary? That'll have to happen before I believe it. Edmonton? Yes. Calgary? Hmmm...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> Not that it means anything but I'd never heard of him.
> 
> 
> 
> A Liberal being elected in Calgary? That'll have to happen before I believe it. Edmonton? Yes. Calgary? Hmmm...



Good guy. Just putting it out there.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It would appear the republicans are a tad nervous -

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...gly-likely-harper-will-call-an-early-election


----------



## SINC

It would appear that anyone who would support an inexperienced boy wonder, with little to his credit but Daddy's name, in a time of world uncertainty, falling oil prices, jihadist threats and more would be foolish indeed and prove it with their ballot choice. Now is not the time to change governments, nor governing parties with the unknown. I will be very surprised if there are in fact that many stupid people in Canada, including Jimbo.


----------



## JAMG

Macfury said:


> Why do you think so? Clearly, the NDP vote last election was part of the BQ implosion. Is the BQ a spent force, and why will these voters turn to the Liberals?




There is virtually no Conservative party in Quebec. Until the last election, Quebecers chose between Nationalist (PQ/Bloc) or Federalist (Liberal). Any other party was just splitting the Vote. Jack Layton's personal Charisma changed that dynamic for the first time in my memory. Liberals took it for granted and paid the price. Mulcar cannot (IMHO) compete with Justin Trudeau. He might get the Nationalist vote that would never vote for any Trudeau, but...

I do not know if the Bloq is spent but it will need new leadership. Young with fresh ideas, they may not be on the political radar, yet.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> It would appear that anyone who would support an inexperienced boy wonder, with little to his credit but Daddy's name, in a time of world uncertainty, falling oil prices, jihadist threats and more would be foolish indeed and prove it with their ballot choice. Now is not the time to change governments, nor governing parties with the unknown. I will be very surprised if there are in fact that many stupid people in Canada, including Jimbo.



Feel threatened much? The newly coined term : IJM (International Jihadist Movement) is clearly representative of Harper's bloviated communication to the masses. I wonder what Orwell would think.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Feel threatened much? The newly coined term : IJM (International Jihadist Movement) is clearly representative of Harper's bloviated communication to the masses. I wonder what Orwell would think.


The only threat is from people who think like you, Jimbo.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I have not thrown a punch since high school. The last one I broke the poor kid's nose. I was suspended for 3 days. Realised I was out of control. Good lesson that. 

No need to be concerned about me👏


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I might add that since then its been all zen like.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You are correct, sir! A whopping 33%. This is why *I never really minded having Chretien as PM*. However, J*T has neither the political savvy nor intellect of Chretien.*


I did.

That is without doubt...

Plus JT would lose badly to JC in a street fight or a cage match when they were of the same age... Probably even now despite the age difference.


----------



## screature

*I have been away for a while...*

But it is nice to see skippy taking some effort and posting something other than just links.

Welcome to ehMac skippy.  

Keep doing it!

We will most likely never agree on anything political but it is good to see that you are expressing your own voice and using your own words.


----------



## eMacMan

It turns out that snowbirds are going to be at the top of the FATCA extortion hit list. Reason being is that most of them have US addresses and phone number listed with their banks or financial firms. This is the number one indicator that they are a US person so banks and FIs are sending them letters demanding that they file W8s or W9s for each account. That also provides the bank with their American TIN or SS number. The bank does not tell them this will result in all of their personal banking information being sent along to the CRA. Furthermore come June of 2015 the CRA will then pass that information along to the IRS. The IRS will then attempt to extract those individuals life savings for having failed to file F(u)BARs, 8938s and 3520s on all of their various Canadian Bank accounts. Money earned and taxed in Canada. 

An interesting side note to the above. The lamestream would have us believe that the ISIS thugs have been hacking into CIA databases so I would imagine that the IRS database containing all that sensitive and previously private financial information would be a piece of cake for any third world thug. Of course if you read the IRS privacy statements, the IRS makes it very clear that they will share that information with all comers, so hacking may not be at all relevant.

Another sidenote: By signing the IGA the Canadian Government has agreed to the removal of whatever protections the banks had from previous bilateral or international treaties. IOW that 30% (ante recently upped to 50%) with-holding on US sourced income may still be on the table, but treaty protections are not. The IRS can also level massive fines on the banks. The agreement has no mechanism for determining if a bank is complying with FATCA requirements. If the IRS says a bank is non-compliant that bank has little choice but to pay the IRS extortion demands. Luemi Bank in Israel is on the hook for $400 Million dollars. Of course Canadian Banks are extremely vulnerable to IRS extortion tactics because of their massive US holdings and investments. 

The irony is that the USA is the worlds #1 haven for international tax cheats and there is zero chance that they will live up to their end of reciprocity agreements. 

If you happen to have any US ties whatsoever I would urge you to consider supporting the Constitutional Challenge to the FATCA IGA. 

More info at: The Isaac Brock Society | Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad
and:
ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty


----------



## Rps

Nice to see discussion here by all participants. Sinc, the truth is for each and everything there is a first time ..... This includes being PM. What troubles me is the lack of grooming the Liberals have undertaken in the past 10 years. They seem to only focus on "the" leader rather than the party.

Their ministrial critics appear weak to me. That is why the Liberals need to be feared. As for the NDP, I still think they are a pandering party ... I would like to see some ground breaking policy come from them .... So far not so much. As for the Cons, I think Skippy would be pleased if they got in as I believe it will be Harper's swan song. I think there is a movement under way to replace him. Ms. Clark would be a good choice .... A non newbie, newbie.


----------



## Rps

Would be interested in ehMacers thoughts on revamping the municipal tax system. I have long held that the market value system has too many flaws to list and is intinsically unfair. I believe cities and such need a fair approach to gather income to run themselves.

For one, I would not be opposed to a tax system based on income. It's advantages would be single entry ( attached to your annual return similar to Provincial and Federal income taxes) would be fair, as when your income goes down so does your tax .... Unlike the current system.

THe only other approach I see is a % of sales tax, this would be regional in scope and thus not equitable in my mind. Thoughts....


----------



## Rps

Rps said:


> Would be interested in ehMacers thoughts on revamping the municipal tax system. I have long held that the market value system has too many flaws to list and is intinsically unfair. I believe cities and such need a fair approach to gather income to run themselves.
> 
> For one, I would not be opposed to a tax system based on income. Its advantages would be single entry ( attached to your annual return similar to Provincial and Federal income taxes) would be fair, as when your income goes down so does your tax .... Unlike the current system.
> 
> THe only other approach I see is a % of sales tax, this would be regional in scope and thus not equitable in my mind. Thoughts...


----------



## Macfury

A flat rate tax, regardless of income. What does the value of my property or my income have to do with the level of city services I consume?



Rps said:


> Would be interested in ehMacers thoughts on revamping the municipal tax system. I have long held that the market value system has too many flaws to list and is intinsically unfair. I believe cities and such need a fair approach to gather income to run themselves.
> 
> For one, I would not be opposed to a tax system based on income. It's advantages would be single entry ( attached to your annual return similar to Provincial and Federal income taxes) would be fair, as when your income goes down so does your tax .... Unlike the current system.
> 
> THe only other approach I see is a % of sales tax, this would be regional in scope and thus not equitable in my mind. Thoughts....


----------



## Rps

McFury, I guess you could say I am a flat taxer to a point. But, the issue is fairness. Poll Taxes ( or is it Pole Taxes ) can be unfair to the less well off, which seems to go against our over all tax system. Would you have a consistent rate across all cities or would it vary city to city?


----------



## Macfury

Each city should set their own tax rate. However, income adjusted municipal tax rates are just as unfair as property-based rates. Income is easy to hide for the well off. Suppose i am a retired millionaire with no official income--no municipal tax?

Property-based rates punish people with the idea that an unsold house is like money in their pocket. It also punishes people simply because speculators have driven up the value of a house they never intend to sell. If I put a down payment on a house, why should I pay tax on the percentage of the house I don't own? The concept is bizarre to me.

I could see a minimum flat tax forming 50% of the amount, with income and home equity forming 25% each with more direct billing for actual services chosen and used. That hits all the high notes!




Rps said:


> McFury, I guess you could say I a flat taxer to a point. But, the issue is fairness. Poll Taxes ( or is it Pole Taxes ) can be unfair to the less well off, which seems to go against our over all tax system. Would you have a consistent rate across all cities or would it vary city to city?


----------



## FeXL

Further on the Ontario electricity...boondoggle:

Surveying the wreckage



> A good friend of mine runs a business in the County. He has done so for 40 years. He showed me his electricity bill last week. In December, he spent $770 on electricity. It was one of the least expensive lines on his bill. The global adjustment charge was $4,267.32. There was also a delivery charge, a debt retirement charge and an array of taxes. *In total, he spent nearly $10,000 in December—for $770 of electricity.* He doesn’t know where this money is going. He is not sure he can keep up. He isn’t alone.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: CBC News link enclosed. (I know, I know. However, the fact that CBC even covered this is amazing in itself...)

This reminds me of Spy vs Spy in _Mad_ magazine, only it's pot activist vs pot activist.

Jodie Emery's bid to run as federal Liberal candidate turned down



> Pot activist Jodie Emery's bid to run for the Liberal Party has come to an end with the federal party rejecting her nomination to become a candidate for a Vancouver riding.
> 
> Emery tweeted she received an email from the Liberals on Friday, saying it would not recommend her to run as potential candidate in the Vancouver East riding that is currently held by Libby Davies.


What happened to this fabulous "open nomination process"?


----------



## Macfury

Shiny Pony looks like he's pissing his pants posing here with Emery. What a pot-addled hypocrite

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau with NDP Vancouver East Liberal hopeful Jodie Emery at a political event in Vancouver on Dec. 15, 2014.



FeXL said:


> Caution: CBC News link enclosed. (I know, I know. However, the fact that CBC even covered this is amazing in itself...)
> 
> This reminds me of Spy vs Spy in _Mad_ magazine, only it's pot activist vs pot activist.
> 
> Jodie Emery's bid to run as federal Liberal candidate turned down
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to this fabulous "open nomination process"?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> BQ has become embarrassing even to nationalists. Layton is gone and so will most of those NDP seats. *Quebec will be watching what Ontario does and will join the wave*.


Nonsense! 

Since when has that *ever* been the case... I will tell you when... *NEVER*.

You clearly know very little about politics in Quebec.

Sorry I could not come up with a way to say it more softly/politely but your statement is just pure partisan wishful thinking on your part without any basis in history/knowledge or reality.

The Trudeau brand still stinks in la belle provance since the FLQ crisis and PT invoked the War Measures Act when there were tanks rolling down the streets of Montreal.

Quebec is the most leftist province in Canada and so they will vote for the NDP, probably not as much as they did under "Bon Jack" but they certainly will not flock to Trudeau or follow Ontario's lead... To suggest that they will is just silly and without substance.

JT/the people who pull his strings have already abandoned Quebec as a priority, they are already focusing on seat rich Southern Ontario.

I am surprised that you have not read that already, you probably have, but because it doesn't fit your narrative you didn't link to the articles here.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Would be interested in ehMacers thoughts on revamping the municipal tax system. *I have long held that the market value system has too many flaws to list and is intinsically unfair.* I believe cities and such need a fair approach to gather income to run themselves.
> 
> For one, I would not be opposed to a tax system based on income. It's advantages would be single entry ( attached to your annual return similar to Provincial and Federal income taxes) would be fair, as when your income goes down so does your tax .... Unlike the current system.
> 
> THe only other approach I see is a % of sales tax, this would be regional in scope and thus not equitable in my mind. Thoughts....


I agree. But...

Does it cost anymore to plow the streets or pick up the garbage etc. in a rich neighborhood rather than a poor neighborhood?

Do people living in a $500K home receive more municipal services than those those living in a $90K home? No.

Municipal taxes pay for municipal services cut and dry. Why should municipal taxes be tied to the value of your property or income? 

Neither makes any sense to me.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> I agree. But...
> 
> Does it cost anymore to plow the streets or pick up the garbage etc. in a rich neighborhood rather than a poor neighborhood?
> 
> Do people living in a $500K home receive more municipal services than those those living in a $90K home? No.
> 
> Municipal taxes pay for municipal services cut and dry. Why should municipal taxes be tied to the value of your property or income?
> 
> Neither makes any sense to me.


Agreed. Having said that, I have lived in rural communities for most of the past 30 years. Different communities but one thing remains constant. County commissioners, mayors or town councillors have their streets cleared and sanded days before they get around to the rest of us. 

Might explain those winter tires which go on in November and stay on until the beginning of May.


----------



## FeXL

More on that "open nomination process".

Liberals mum about nomination challenge in Toronto riding



> The Liberal party is refusing to disclose details of an appeal of a nomination process that has triggered allegations of ethnic profiling and vote-suppressing robocalls in a downtown Toronto riding.
> 
> The party will not discuss the grounds for the appeal launched by engineer Marisa Sterling, who sought to become the Liberal candidate in the riding of Beaches-East York but who lost to lawyer Nathaniel Erskine-Smith at a nomination meeting before Christmas.


----------



## SINC

Yep, one party is as bad as another. That's why leadership experience is more critical than change.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Agreed. Having said that, *I have lived in rural communities for most of the past 30 years. Different communities but one thing remains constant. County commissioners, mayors or town councillors have their streets cleared and sanded days before they get around to the rest of us. *
> 
> Might explain those winter tires which go on in November and stay on until the beginning of May.


I suspect that is the same situation for many aboriginal communities as well.

But in semi to large communities it is less the case. The "greasing of the wheels" of municipal services to the advantage of the advantaged becomes much more difficult for the advantaged. 

What you speak of undoubtedly exists, but I suspect those communities are in the vast minority. But that being said, then it is up to those in the community to complain to their municipal government and then if their voices are not heard, they should show up and vote the rat bastards out of office. 

The turnout for municipal elections is abysmal, so if the situation continues the constituents of any given municipal jurisdiction have no one to blame but themselves due to their apathy or idleness.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> I suspect that is the same situation for many aboriginal communities as well.
> 
> But in semi to large communities it is less the case. The "greasing of the wheels" of municipal services to the advantage of the advantaged becomes much more difficult for the advantaged.
> 
> What you speak of undoubtedly exists, but I suspect those communities are in the vast minority. But that being said, then it is up to those in the community to complain to their municipal government and then if their voices are not heard, they should show up and vote the rat bastards out of office.
> 
> The turnout for municipal elections is abysmal, so if the situation continues the constituents of any given municipal jurisdiction have no one to blame but themselves due to their apathy or idleness.


Our city of 65,000 is a prime example of this type of pandering to officials and the elite. Turnout for the last municipal election was 34%.

Thus the politically active elite govern the majority, year after year.

The result is the highest taxes in Alberta and much higher than elsewhere in Canada. My 1,100 sq ft home is over $4,000 a year and rises 3 to 4% every year. It also does not include utilities which increased 20% for 2015 and now average another $180/month for sewer, water and garbage collection (another $2,000 a year) which had gone up 9% per year for the previous six years running until the 20% bump this year.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Our city of 65,000 is a prime example of this type of pandering to officials and the elite. Turnout for the last municipal election was 34%.
> 
> Thus the politically active elite govern the majority, year after year.
> 
> The result is the highest taxes in Alberta and much higher than elsewhere in Canada. My 1,100 sq ft home is over $4,000 a year and rises 3 to 4% every year. It also does not include utilities which increased 20% for 2015 and now average another $180/month for sewer, water and garbage collection (another $2,000 a year) which had gone up 9% per year for the previous six years running until the 20% bump this year.


Yes Sinc I hear you but, your community, unfortunately, is not a semi to large community so such corruption can still be a significant factor when it comes to municipal elections.

Scratch that, as the Charbonneau Commission  has revealed in Quebec if the players are rich and powerful enough even high powered scumbags can be bought off.

I can hardly wait for Dalton's indictment and his subsequent trial... replete with Wynne and the other rat bastards who knew what was going down and professed ignorance.


----------



## Rps

Screature, don't hold your breath on Dalton ..... But if anyone deserves to be prosecuted it sure is him and his cronies. But here in Ontario we don't try corrupt leaders .... We just reelect their parties.


----------



## eMacMan

*Harper Omnibus High Centered*

OK so we have Duffy and Wright under there. We have Canadian vets their friends and family also under the Omnibus. The omni present Native Canadian Community. Of course the Muslim community is there to provide spiritual guidance. The latest Citizenship bill added all dual citizens, even some that are unaware they are duals. Thanks to the FATCA IGA any Canadians who happen to be tainted by as little as one drop of American Blood are under the Omnibus.

To this impressive list Harper has now added Condo boards and owners. This one is indirect shrapnel from Harper signing the FATCA IGA, but nonetheless they have joined the crowd under the omnibus.

The Isaac Brock Society | FATCA Discussion Thread (Ask your questions) Part Two


> I’m on a board of directors for a non-profit corporation (condominium corporation). We are a Canadian corporation, Canadian-owned, and can only invest in GIC’s that are CDIC-covered. Our investment institution (our bank – as well as all other Canadian Banks as I am lead to understand) is requiring us to fill out form W-8BEN-E, which seems to make no sense whatsoever since it is impossible for us to have exposure to US withholding tax. On top of that, it appears (although the full requirements too confusing for me to understand on 1st reading) that I need to list condo owners who may fit one or more of the following requirements: US citizens, have substantial US holdings, spend a significant amount of time in the US, have substantial US dealings through their corporations, etc. In my position, I don’t believe that I can gather that information.
> *I don’t want to be part of this witch-hunt; but if I don’t cooperate we won’t be able to invest our money anywhere to maintain it’s value for the corporation.*
> Under Canadian Law, does the status of my condo corp exempt us from filling out this form (regardless of what the Banks may want)?


Sorry Michael but Harper has made it quite clear that Canadian law, banking privacy regulations and the Canadian Charter of Rights are all subservient to the will of the IRS. Welcome to the underbelly of the Harper Omni-bus. You sure do have a lot of company.


Meanwhile Harper's hopes that Americans in Canada would fail to rally and support a very expensive constitutional challenge to the FATCA IGA have been further dashed. The third payment was made on time. Fund raising is really hard when there are no deep pockets and those that are not victims have little reason to give but we are getting it done.

Those of you who are or were American citizens, are married to Americans, are in business with Americans and are therefore very much at risk, should be highly motivated to contribute. Please check out:
The Isaac Brock Society | Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad
ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty


----------



## FeXL

Further on Shiny Pony's "Open Nomination Process".

Ontario, BC & now, Alberta.

Open Nominations. Edmonton Mill Woods Edition



> I received my Green Light from the party in March 2014...Various party officials met with me in May, June and August 2014, pressuring me to withdraw my name in favour of Councillor Sohi so he wouldn’t need to contest a nomination. They tried to bribe me, threaten me and ultimately expired all my memberships by delaying the nomination beyond December 31, 2014 in the hope that our team would not renew their memberships.


Yeah, not so much...


----------



## FeXL

Oh, Shiny Pony!



> London, January 20th - _Southwestern Ontario must "transition away" from a manufacturing-based economy and develop more technology and economic innovation, Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau said Tuesday._
> 
> Windsor, January 22nd - _"We talked about the need for the federal government to step up on manufacturing and give support to local jobs and prosperity," Trudeau said. "_


I know, I know. I don't get it either...

Did you see the softball interview with him being asked what he'd do the first day if he was elected? He couldn't even answer that without stumbling & shrugging his shoulders. I guess the first thing that crossed his mind, "Lighting up a fatty", wouldn't have been constructive...


----------



## Macfury

The days of traditional manufacturing in Ontario are dead thanks to Liberal energy policies. Their grotesque mishandling of the "Ring of Fire" and other "initiatives" are ensuring that any other sort of development remains on the backburner for anyone alive today.

Perhaps he wants Ontario to pursue micro-agiculture, by sending every citizen a free packet of seeds to grow wildwood weed.



FeXL said:


> Oh, Shiny Pony!
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I know. I don't get it either...
> 
> Did you see the softball interview with him being asked what he'd do the first day if he was elected? He couldn't even answer that without stumbling & shrugging his shoulders. I guess the first thing that crossed his mind, "Lighting up a fatty", wouldn't have been constructive...


----------



## FeXL

Ah, shades of Carlin's "Toledo Window Box". You could have "Niagara Escarpment", "York Flyer" & "Tower Power"! 

"Mississauga" is way too complicated a word when you're stoned so that wouldn't be a good prefix. You could always shorten it, I guess: "Ol' Mis' Alley Cat" or some such.

:lmao:


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, don't hold your breath on Dalton ..... But if anyone deserves to be prosecuted it sure is him and his cronies. But here in Ontario we don't try corrupt leaders .... We just reelect their parties.


Yes I know, but what is life without hope.


----------



## FeXL

Not only low information voters but, low information politicians.

What's Trudeau's vision for Canada?



> Justin Trudeau has accused the Government of Canada of putting all its eggs in one basket, referring to how falling oil prices have hurt government revenues.
> 
> Given that our young friend might be the prime minister of Canada in 250 days, perhaps we should examine this statement to see what he knows about the economy and eggs.
> 
> According to Statistics Canada, manufacturing makes up around 11% of Canada's economy. Mining, quarrying and oil and gas extraction combined make up about 8.5% of the economy. The biggest chunk of the economy is real estate, rental and leasing, weighing in at an impressive 13% of GDP.
> 
> I wonder if Justin is going to insist that we get all of our quinoa out of the leasing basket and that we get all of our kale out of the manufacturing basket, not that anyone likes kale.


Who let Shiny Pony off his leash, again?


----------



## Macfury

We've put all of our weed into a single bowl?



FeXL said:


> Not only low information voters but, low information politicians.
> 
> What's Trudeau's vision for Canada?
> 
> 
> 
> Who let Shiny Pony off his leash, again?


----------



## Macfury

Every day, shortly after 4:20 pm... I keep thinking of this cartoon character every time Shiny makes an appearance.


----------



## CubaMark

*The Canadian government continues to allow US law to trample Canadian sovereignty. Despite an amendment in 1982 to Canada's Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (FEMA) in response to the Helms-Burton Act in the USA (the strengthening of the embargo against Cuba), the government has refused to enforce it's own laws and prosecute US subsidiaries operating in Canada. There have been several known examples (Wal-Mart, Expedia, Travelocity, MBNA) and yet, ZERO action.  (Oddly, this issue was extensively discussed here on ehMac, and yet multiple search attempts using the built-in search utility and using the Google site search turn up nothing - very strange).*

*PayPal Canada freezes gardener's account over Cuba connections*



> Two avid gardeners from Alberta have run afoul of Washington’s Cold War sanctions against Cuba.
> 
> Brian and Jan Ficht, who live near Edson, had their PayPal Canada account frozen after they used it to pay for a three-week educational tour of Cuba's urban agriculture practices.
> 
> Ficht said he had no idea he was conducting a transaction with an American company and would be subject to American laws.
> 
> "I'm one Canadian, dealing with another Canadian, through what I believe is a Canadian organization – PayPal.ca," he said.
> 
> "But in fact it's falling under the shadow of U.S. foreign policy."





> PayPal Canada eventually responded by email telling Ficht it was restricting his account because of "activity that may be in violation of United States regulations administered by the Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)."
> 
> The company said while screening his account, it found that he "may be buying or selling goods or services that are regulated or prohibited by the U.S. government."
> 
> PayPal told Ficht that before reinstating his account he had to "agree to no longer undertake activities in violation of laws, regulations, and rules outlined in PayPal's user agreement."
> 
> Jan Ficht said she was surprised her interest in organic and sustainable vegetable growing would be red-flagged by the American government. Canada has always maintained trade relations with Cuba.





> In a statement, PayPal Canada spokeswoman Malini Mitra said the company is bound by American law.
> 
> "As a U.S. company, PayPal and all its foreign subsidiaries have to comply with the Office of Foreign Assets Control sanctions regulations. With respect to Cuba, payments involving non*-U.S. customers have to be declined as per OFAC regulations."


(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

_More on FEMA and it's application to other issues in Canada:_

*Ottawa may use the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act to block "buy america" provisions affecting BC ferry terminal*



> The Act also provides that any judgment under the the US's Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (LIBERTAD) Act of 1996 may not be enforced or recognized in Canada. Corporations that breach an order under the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act face a penalty of up to C$1,500,000.
> 
> No one has ever been prosecuted for breaching an order under the Act; however, there have been investigations and threats. For example, in 1997 Wal-mart removed Cuban produced pyjamas from its Canadian shelves in order to comply with the US embargo against Cuba, but it soon reversed this decision in light of the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act.


(TradeRemedies.ca)


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Not only low information voters but, low information politicians.
> 
> What's Trudeau's vision for Canada?
> 
> Who let Shiny Pony off his leash, again?


Exactly. Monte nailed it!

Since when is this government in the business of choosing winners and losers (like the Chretien government was) when it comes to sectors of the economy?

The oil and gas industry makes proposals for their industry and then those proposals go under independent scrutiny via the NEB. Then they report to the government with their recommendations and then based on those recommendations the government responds.

To suggest that *the government* has placed all their eggs in one basket shows how out of touch the Liberal Party and JT is with the realities of a 21st century free market system.

But then again that is not surprising considering what PT did when he was in power choosing to Nationalize energy policy a la the NEP.

Once again, *the government *does not pick and choose which industry becomes a "leader" and then even if they did (as Monte pointed out) JT got it completely wrong.


----------



## Macfury

They're not trampling Canadian sovereignty. The Canadian user inadvertently violated the terms of service of a private US company that must comply with US law.



CubaMark said:


> *The Canadian government continues to allow US law to trample Canadian sovereignty. Despite an amendment in 1982 to Canada's Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (FEMA) in response to the Helms-Burton Act in the USA (the strengthening of the embargo against Cuba), the government has refused to enforce it's own laws and prosecute US subsidiaries operating in Canada. There have been several known examples (Wal-Mart, Expedia, Travelocity, MBNA) and yet, ZERO action.  (Oddly, this issue was extensively discussed here on ehMac, and yet multiple search attempts using the built-in search utility and using the Google site search turn up nothing - very strange).*
> 
> *PayPal Canada freezes gardener's account over Cuba connections*
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)


----------



## Macfury

The US government should have the right to use US steel to the degree that it is funding the project. That is, if it is paying 80 per cent, it should be allowed to use 80 per cent US steel.



CubaMark said:


> _More on FEMA and it's application to other issues in Canada:_
> 
> *Ottawa may use the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act to block "buy america" provisions affecting BC ferry terminal*
> 
> 
> 
> (TradeRemedies.ca)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *The Canadian government continues to allow US law to trample Canadian sovereignty. Despite an amendment in 1982 to Canada's Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (FEMA) in response to the Helms-Burton Act in the USA (the strengthening of the embargo against Cuba), the government has refused to enforce it's own laws and prosecute US subsidiaries operating in Canada. There have been several known examples (Wal-Mart, Expedia, Travelocity, MBNA) and yet, ZERO action.  (Oddly, this issue was extensively discussed here on ehMac, and yet multiple search attempts using the built-in search utility and using the Google site search turn up nothing - very strange).*
> 
> *PayPal Canada freezes gardener's account over Cuba connections*
> 
> (CBC)


Why all the bold CM? You don't need to yell to be heard.



CubaMark said:


> *...Oddly, this issue was extensively discussed here on ehMac, and yet multiple search attempts using the built-in search utility and using the Google site search turn up nothing - very strange).*


It must be that the Harper government has a vested interest in what can and cannot be searched on ehMac. There is clear indication of a conspiracy and malfeasance on the part of the current government in Canada. They are completely in cahoots with the US Obama administration to penalize Canadian companies for doing business with/in Cuba.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Why all the bold CM? You don't need to yell to be heard.


Not yelling, just wanting my text to stand out from the quoted story. Geez, first SINC gets on my case for large type in titles, now this. A guy can't have any format freedom in here, or what?



screature said:


> It must be that the Harper government has a vested interest in what can and cannot be searched on ehMac. There is clear indication of a conspiracy and malfeasance on the part of the current government in Canada. They are completely in cahoots with the US Obama administration to penalize Canadian companies for doing business with/in Cuba.


Ah, now you're getting it... I knew eventually y'all would see the light... :lmao:


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Not yelling, just wanting my text to stand out from the quoted story. Geez, first SINC gets on my case for large type in titles, now this. A guy can't have any format freedom in here, or what?


You have the freedom to make your posts in all bold or all Caps or all bold and Caps....

Whatever you choose.

*BUT*, I have the freedom to comment on your choice. Freedom is a double edged sword that cuts both ways, something that those on the left don't seem to appreciate much of the time.

Please feel free to comment on my use of both bold and Caps on the word but.



CubaMark said:


> Ah, now you're getting it... I knew eventually y'all would see the light... :lmao:


If you are talking about the dim light of an oncoming train in a one track train tunnel then you are correct. But this is not how this country is run, at least not yet, and hopefully never will be.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> They're not trampling Canadian sovereignty. The Canadian user inadvertently violated the terms of service of a private US company that must comply with US law.


You're missing the point. Those terms of service are illegal. A Canadian living in Canada and using a Canadian website, is not subject to American law. Paypal is breaking Canadian law by attempting to impose American law on a Canadian.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> You're missing the point. Those terms of service are illegal. A Canadian living in Canada and using a Canadian website, is not subject to American law. Paypal is breaking Canadian law by attempting to impose American law on a Canadian.


If I set up a Canadian equivalent of PayPal and say that no transactions with Alabama or Austria will be allowed, then those are the terms of service. It's a private matter.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> If I set up a Canadian equivalent of PayPal and say that no transactions with Alabama or Austria will be allowed, then those are the terms of service. It's a private matter.


You's think so, but no. You have to have legitimate reasons. Paypal's reason that they were complying with US law is specifically illegal in Canada.

A legitimate reason might be not doing electronic transactions with Myanmar due to the lack of network infrastructure in that country. You can't guarantee the transaction will even go through, and if it does, half of the journey might be done by a kid carrying a bag of cash.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> If I set up a Canadian equivalent of PayPal and say that no transactions with Alabama or Austria will be allowed, then those are the terms of service. It's a private matter.


PayPal's Terms of Service are not the issue here.

The issue is the U.S. moronic and entirely inappropriate placement of Cuba on their list of Countries that sponsor terror. Such a designation triggers automatic financial regulations that disallow the transfer of any U.S. currency to Cuba. Thus, PayPal and numerous international banks have found themselves threatened with fines by the U.S. Treasury Dept. for violating those regulations. 

PayPal is following U.S. law. But the Canadian gov't, as I've noted (over, and over, and over), passed legislation forbidding Canadian subsidiaries of U.S. companies from obeying that law, or risk financial penalty. The Canadian government has levied no fines nor taken any action stronger than issuing a note of displeasure (the Wal-Mart case) to enforce that law.

It's not a "private matter". It's a matter of international sovereignty.


----------



## Macfury

The transaction can legally begin in Canada, but ends abruptly when the transaction itself is processed by US computers on US soil. Canadian law cannot compel a US company to complete the transaction on its own soil.

If the transaction were processed in Canada--different story.




heavyall said:


> You's think so, but no. You have to have legitimate reasons. Paypal's reason that they were complying with US law is specifically illegal in Canada.
> 
> A legitimate reason might be not doing electronic transactions with Myanmar due to the lack of network infrastructure in that country. You can't guarantee the transaction will even go through, and if it does, half of the journey might be done by a kid carrying a bag of cash.





CubaMark said:


> PayPal's Terms of Service are not the issue here.
> 
> The issue is the U.S. moronic and entirely inappropriate placement of Cuba on their list of Countries that sponsor terror. Such a designation triggers automatic financial regulations that disallow the transfer of any U.S. currency to Cuba. Thus, PayPal and numerous international banks have found themselves threatened with fines by the U.S. Treasury Dept. for violating those regulations.
> 
> PayPal is following U.S. law. But the Canadian gov't, as I've noted (over, and over, and over), passed legislation forbidding Canadian subsidiaries of U.S. companies from obeying that law, or risk financial penalty. The Canadian government has levied no fines nor taken any action stronger than issuing a note of displeasure (the Wal-Mart case) to enforce that law.
> 
> It's not a "private matter". It's a matter of international sovereignty.


----------



## CubaMark

*Government Paid $180,000 To Run Empty Mining Ombudsman Office*

The Harper government spent more than $180,000 last year to run the office of a corporate social responsibility counsellor for the Canadian mining industry — even though there was no counsellor.

The government says it cost $181,600 to operate the office from October 2013 to October 2014.

However, the position of counsellor was vacant all that time and remains so to this day.

* * *​
The government created the position of Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor in 2009.

The counsellor was supposed to investigate Canadian mining companies alleged to have abused human rights or inflicted environmental damage while operating abroad.

* * *​
In the government's response to McKay's question, International Trade Minister Ed Fast said a process to choose a new counsellor began last November, more than a year after the first counsellor departed.

No potential candidates have yet been interviewed, but Fast said "the government is moving to staff this important post as soon as possible."

The office consists of two employees in addition to the counsellor: a senior adviser and an administrative assistant, Fast said. Their salaries presumably account for most of the $181,600 to operate the office last year, although it's unclear what work they could do in the absence of a counsellor.

(HuffPo)


----------



## Macfury

Close the office immediately.


----------



## FeXL

Brutal. $181,600 dollars wasted in a whole year.

CBC goes through that in an hour & a half, with fewer results...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Close the office immediately.


And then complain that the government is cutting jobs...


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbapig3utG0

Newfoundland and Labrador ........ the furthest easterly province, a beautiful province ............. a safe province.


----------



## Macfury

It could be made safer by placing government informants in every 10th house, Dr. G.



Dr.G. said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbapig3utG0
> 
> Newfoundland and Labrador ........ the furthest easterly province, a beautiful province ............. a safe province.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It could be made safer by placing government informants in every 10th house, Dr. G.


That would only work with home-grown terrorists. With the threat of outside terrorists there would need to have the entire population of NL standing together ........... united ........... as a wall of resistance.


----------



## Macfury

Moose and man, side by side!


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> That would only work with home-grown terrorists. With the threat of outside terrorists there would need to have the entire population of NL standing together ........... united ........... as a wall of resistance.


A couple of informants in the House of Commons and another 3 in the Cabinet should take care of all the home grown terrorists.

Perhaps just a few bull Moose in the same location would serve just as well.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Moose and man, side by side!


Amen, Brother. Solidarity forever!!


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> A couple of informants in the House of Commons and another 3 in the Cabinet should take care of all the home grown terrorists.
> 
> Perhaps just a few bull Moose in the same location would serve just as well.


:lmao::lmao:


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

That cartoonist is really irritating. You can't do a Photoshop gag using illustration.


----------



## CubaMark

_*Surely you remember this?*_

*Government blatantly Photoshopped U.S. images of the iconic Canadarm to include ‘Canada’ logo*



(NationalPost)


----------



## Macfury

Yes. But you can't do a Photoshop gag with an illustration. It falls flat. Also, the fact that the Canadarm received government funding makes it even more feeble.



CubaMark said:


> _*Surely you remember this?*_


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So with Baird's resignation where will Steve find another eunuch to accompany Laureen to events he doesn't want to attend?


----------



## FeXL

Justin qualifies...


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So with Baird's resignation where will Steve find another eunuch to accompany Laureen to events he doesn't want to attend?


Any truth to the old saw "the first rat off a sinking ship finds the nicest nest?"


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> Any truth to the old saw "the first rat off a sinking ship finds the nicest nest?"



Could be. Steve looked stunned in the House.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Could be. Steve looked stunned in the House.


That's pretty naive of you, skippy--do you really think that's the first he'd heard of it?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> That's pretty naive of you, skippy--do you really think that's the first he'd heard of it?



Rumours have been circulating for months. So no. But officially it appears Steve found out via news reports last night. Maybe shocked is not the right word. He looked concerned.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So with Baird's resignation where will Steve find another *eunuch* to accompany Laureen to events he doesn't want to attend?


I can't imagine living in your brain.

It is just too twisted.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Any truth to the old saw "t*he first rat off a sinking ship finds the nicest nest*?"


Seriously?!

Did you actually watch went down today? I did.

Or are you simply relying on what you read, which was probably off of some news wire (RSS) that you could get exactly the same thing hundreds of times coming from people who are paid to type in the words regardless of content.

Read and hear what Paul Dewar had to say about John Baird before you make such despicable comments.

I'm not even going to provide you with the luxury of links.

Look it up!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> could be. *Steve looked stunned in the house.*


That is one opinion.

To me he looked like he had a combination of many emotions and thoughts all at once in the moment. Like we all do at times.

If that is what you call "stunned" then I agree with you.

But some sneaking suspicion tells me that is not what you meant.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good to go, indeed! Here comes the puffster. Glad that he's not accepting another Harper govt bribe. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/m...no-deal-as-trial-preparation-begins-1.2948203


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper govt may think twice prior to deploying its media mouthpiece against an expert. 

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/6632528?ir=Canada&ncid=tweetlnkcahpmg00000002


----------



## Macfury

skippy, you're going mental...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper govt may think twice prior to deploying its media mouthpiece against an expert.
> 
> Andrew Weaver, Canadian Climate Scientist, Wins Defamation Suit Against National Post


----------



## eMacMan

The Conmen carefully crafted their talking points about the Harper Government allowing itself to be black mailed into signing the FATCA - IGA. Condensed it comes down to: "If you have so much as one drop of American blood be prepared to give all of your assets to the IRS"

One area they studiously avoiding addressing, was the security risk of turning over confidential banking information to an agency of a foreign government.

In the past couple of years hijacking of US tax refunds has skyrocketed into millions of cases per year. Turbo Tax and others are taking the heat because that's where the fraudulent forms are being filed. However the people filing those forms have to get their hands on W2s and 1099s somewhere and realistically the most likely source is the IRS itself. In just a few months CRA will be turning over highly confidential information on millions of Canadian financial accounts to that very same organization.

A couple of relevant stories:
IRS rehired hundreds of former workers with behavior problems: audit


> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Poor screening led the IRS to rehire hundreds of former employees with records of bad behavior including falsifying forms and unauthorized access to taxpayer information, an internal government watchdog found.
> Auditors found the Internal Revenue Service between 2010 and 2013 gave jobs to 323 former employees who had displayed unsavory conduct during prior stints at the agency, according to the U.S. Treasury's Inspector General for Tax Administration on Thursday.


Identity Theft's Taxing New Trend: Scammers Are After Your Tax Refund - DailyFinance


> Far more advanced than simply intersecting a rebate check or prepaid card, these thieves are stealing year-end statements, W-2s and other income information to file returns on victims' behalf. Americans can legitimately receive their refunds in a variety of ways: direct deposit (often the fastest), loaded onto a prepaid card, or via check mailed to a location of their choosing. Mitic says thieves will often choose prepaid cards.
> 
> "Prepaid cards are a source of significant amounts of fraud. If you use tax filing assistant like HR Block or Turbo Tax you could get a refund on a prepaid card," Mitic says. "They're beautiful from a tax ID theft perspective because they're just like cash."


So is that highly confidential information that the CRA will be passing along to the IRS in any way secure? Absolutely not! 
•••
The Conmen claim that they signed the IGA to protect their bankster buds. It should be noted that even with the IGA, the IRS can arbitrarily declare a financial institution to be non-compliant and still withhold 30% of US sourced income from that institution. They can also fine a financial Institution $1,000,000 for each account the IRS claims that institution failed to report. 

The big thing the IGA did accomplish was allowing the IRS to claim that the Government of Canada allows and indeed endorses the theft. It also removed bilateral and international treaty protections which would have made this sort of theft illegal.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> skippy, you're going mental...


Big time!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Complete and utter BS. Yep sure. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=10797493


----------



## Macfury

Agree. The Greens are spouting utter BS.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Complete and utter BS. Yep sure.
> 
> B.C.'s lone Green MLA becomes lightning rod at B.C. legislature


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Abandon ship. Abandon ship. Weeeee!

http://www.brandonsun.com/national/...for-liberals-in-next--election-291260871.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

The ship abandoned Adams long ago. Nice of Trudeau to take out the garbage though. Pretty funny to see someone who has trouble getting nominated going to a party that has nothing but bad press on its nomination procedures



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Abandon ship. Abandon ship. Weeeee!
> 
> NewsAlert: Tory MP Eve Adams quits party to run for Liberals in next election - Brandon Sun


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> The ship abandoned Adams long ago. Nice of Trudeau to take out the garbage though. Pretty funny to see someone who has trouble getting nominated going to a party that has nothing but bad press on its nomination procedures


It is pretty funny that the Liberals actually want someone who couldn't even get nominated to run for the party she already represented. Shows just how desperate Trudeau is for anyone with a name people recognize (even if it's for a bad reason). I wonder if they plan to hire her husband next?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The cool thing is boyfriend Dimitri Soudas is likely now an informant.


----------



## FeXL

Sounds like NEP II to me...

Justin Trudeau pitches a medicare approach to fight climate change in Canada



> In a speech before the Canadian Club of Calgary, Mr. Trudeau announced that if he is elected Prime Minister, he will welcome provincial and territorial leaders to join him at the upcoming Paris climate conference, and within 90 days, hold a First Ministers meeting to work together on a framework for combating climate change. Central to this will be the creation of national emissions-reduction targets. Provincial and territorial governments will then have the flexibility to design their own policies to meet these commitments, including their own carbon pricing policies. Furthermore, a Liberal government will provide them with targeted federal funding to help achieve these goals, similar to how the federal government supports health care in Canada.


Frankly, I'm disappointed the CCC didn't tar & feather him & ride out of town on a rail...

Further on Shiny Pony's proposal for a carbon tax:

(from the comments at SDA)



> Wondering what the various territories are thinking about this....
> 
> Northwest- 100% diesel power generation
> Nunavut- 100% diesel power generation
> Yukon- 94% hydro 6% diesel 0.02% wind.


You go for it, Justin. You fight something that's been happening, naturally, for hundreds of millions of years before your ancestors got kicked out of the stagnant pool of water for refusing to catch their own supper, instead relying on the rest of the community to feed them...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

CTV is reporting that Dimitri Soudas will be working for the Libs during campaign 2015. 

Well done Steve.


----------



## Macfury

Keep taking the deadwood!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CTV is reporting that Dimitri Soudas will be working for the Libs during campaign 2015.
> 
> Well done Steve.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CTV is reporting that Dimitri Soudas will be working for the Libs during campaign 2015.
> 
> Well done Steve.


Yep, sending unreliable and untrustworthy former party members to work for the opposition is the smart way to deal with it. Solves both problems at once.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Weeeeee. Yep. Knows where the dead bodies are buried. 

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...adams-to-liberal-party-harper-better-hope-not


----------



## Macfury

Looks lik Shiny Pony's press conference had a built-in laugh track:

Robyn Urback: Good luck, Justin. Eve Adams is your problem now



> No. Justin Trudeau entered the morning presser accompanied by Mississauga-Brampton South MP Eve Adams, who announced she was crossing the floor from the Conservatives to the Liberals. *There were audible gasps from the gallery — and giggles.*


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *Abandon ship. Abandon ship. Weeeee!
> *
> Tory MP Eve Adams switches to Liberals, brings backing from Harper loyalist - Brandon Sun





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 53865





Macfury said:


> The ship abandoned Adams long ago. Nice of Trudeau to take out the garbage though. Pretty funny to see someone who has trouble getting nominated going to a party that has nothing but bad press on its nomination procedures


The CPC Party banned her from running again, in any riding, due to her and Dimitri Soudas' shenanigan's in trying to get the nomination for the new riding that was closer to her fiance. She abandoned her riding for self serving reason's and now she is abandoning her party for self serving reasons.

JT and the Libs are welcome to her, now she is their problem. Good luck to her winning a nomination as a Lib, I doubt she will win one although despite his claim for fair, open and transparent nominations Justin may just step in to acclaim her somewhere. Then if he does, she will likely get trounced.

Actually when I think about her ethical standards she and the Libs will be a good fit.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CTV is reporting that Dimitri Soudas will be working for the Libs during campaign 2015.
> 
> Well done Steve.


Well done indeed. 

Anyone who conducts himself in the manner in which Soudas has since being fired as Communications Director for PMO is a mill stone off his back. The Libs are welcome to have him as well.

If you think these two are an asset to the Libs you are less informed about Canadian Politics than I already thought you were.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The cool thing is boyfriend Dimitri Soudas is likely now an informant.


Informant about what? The only possible things could be ones that he was involved in so it is highly unlikely as if he had anything to "inform" on he would be implicating himself.

Dimitri has been booted from the CPC party for so long now he has no idea as to what current strategies are as they change constantly.

Also just the Machiavellian in me, what if this defection is just a way to place a couple of former CPC members in the heart of the Liberal Party as moles? Hmm...?

They might be "informants" but not in the way you expect.


----------



## screature

Just to further add to this comedic move to the Libs by Adams and Soudas.

It said that "the first off of a sinking ship are the rats", so what exactly does this say about the party who takes them in and gives them a home? They are still rats after-all.

It seems that JT and the Libs have no moral compass as they have derided Adams in the past for her lack of ethical behaviour and yet they welcome her into their fold.

Pathetic...

Truly pathetic.

To accept Eve Adams and Dimitri Soudas into the Liberal fold means that the Libs are running scared and scarred at this point in time IMO.


----------



## CubaMark

I see no benefit for the Liberals in bringing Eve Adams into the fold.... Unless they think the voters who backed her last time will stick with her in the switch to the Libs (or enough of them) plus whatever Liberal support sits in that (new?) riding will be enough to defeat whichever Conservative candidate is put forward. Even then, one wonders if Trudeau has thought through the repercussions of having Adams+Soudas around.... damaged goods.


----------



## Macfury

I think the poor sap thinks it's a media relations coup. He probably didn't expect the laughter from the press gallery.



CubaMark said:


> Even then, one wonders if Trudeau has thought through the repercussions of having Adams+Soudas around.... damaged goods.


----------



## SINC

This is but one more example of the boy wonder who has no clue about running a country and demonstrating his inability to think clearly. That's why wise Canadians will reject him as a possible PM. You can't take the boy out of the man.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> This is but one more example of the boy wonder who has no clue about running a country and demonstrating his inability to think clearly. That's why wise Canadians will reject him as a possible PM. You can't take the boy out of the man.


Sinc, I disagree. I think this shows Trudeau is becoming a leader. It is the ability to suck up the obvious and tell the party line that is the hallmark of a leader. Harper has done this for years. But I do agree with the idea this is a seat in flux. Yeah a seat is a seat but for how long..... I can't see her being reflected, nor do I see her delivering her boy friend.

What I do see is the Liberals mirroring much of a Conservative policy ( in the areas which they tell us just what their policy is ) which would cater to the con voters. Good tactic I say.


----------



## Macfury

I disagree. Promises of a carbon tax is about the only policy I've seen, and that is a non-starter for most of the Conservative base.

Also, Eve Adams is not "a seat." She lost in the last election. Conservatives who didn't vote for her in the first place, won't do so now that she's (maybe) running for the Libs.



Rps said:


> What I do see is the Liberals mirroring much of a Conservative policy ( in the areas which they tell us just what their policy is ) which would cater to the con voters. Good tactic I say.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

There seems to be a consensus in the media that Adams will run against Joe Oliver in Toronto. Soudas is now an informant and to some degree will be running Adam's campaign.

All good news for the boot Steve effort. If she really was the horror show people allude to, why did Steve keep her in her role at Health?


----------



## Macfury

Without even a nomination? I guess JT already told them he is steamrollering the nomination process again.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> There seems to be a consensus in the media that Adams will run against Joe Oliver in Toronto.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Without even a nomination? I guess JT already told them he is steamrollering the nomination process again.


I'm sure there will be a nomination and that Dimitri will be at his best to make sure Eve wins.


----------



## FeXL

That silver tongued Shiny Pony...

Andrew Coyne: Justin Trudeau delivers a crawlingly demeaning performance while welcoming Eve Adams

So, let's set the stage:



> The chief ingredient for success in Canadian politics, it is every day more apparent, is a bottomless capacity for self-humiliation.


Now, queue the actor, a little character development &, the punch line:



> Ms. Adams has been a member of the Conservative party for 25 years. She has been a member of the Conservative caucus under Stephen Harper for four years. She is engaged to Mr. Soudas, once the prime minister’s most loyal retainer and a central figure in the Conservatives’ 2011 election campaign. *But only now, this very week, did she discover that she could not support “fear-mongers,” “bullies” or “mean-spirited leadership.”*


M'bold.

Drop the curtain & run the credits...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Former Conservative adviser Dimitri Soudas to join Liberals with Eve Adams | CTV News

Go Dimitri go!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

FeXL said:


> That silver tongued Shiny Pony


Hey. Any chance of refraining from name calling? Just call him Justin or Trudeau.
I've stopped using Hairpiece.

Any chance?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I disagree. Promises of a carbon tax is about the only policy I've seen, and that is a non-starter for most of the Conservative base.
> 
> Also, Eve Adams is not "a seat." She lost in the last election. Conservatives who didn't vote for her in the first place, won't do so now that she's (maybe) running for the Libs.


Isn't she the current member for Miss-Brampton South?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Rps said:


> Isn't she the current member for Miss-Brampton South?


She is indeed. Problem is the riding's going Liberal with another candidate. Adams figured she had a better chance being elected as CPC elsewhere. She also was parliamentary secretary in health appointed by Steve.....until yesterday.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hey. Any chance of refraining from name calling?


Thank you. I've noticed.

You bet. When BigDL does...


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Isn't she the current member for Miss-Brampton South?


My apologies--yes she is.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey it's great to see Libs like Rona promoting govt programmes for the commonwealth -

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/r...cine-movement-puts-children-at-risk-1.2951986


----------



## screature

Knock.


----------



## SINC

It's also great to see JT's promise not to interfere in the nomination process as he promised:

Varinder Bhullar seeks injuction after being denied chance to run for Liberals - Edmonton - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

More CYA from McGuinty days?

OPP seizes BlackBerry in deleted e-mail investigation



> OPP officers investigating the alleged destruction of government records in the office of former premier Dalton McGuinty have seized a BlackBerry belonging to his chief of staff.
> 
> OPP Det. Const. Andre Duval obtained court permission on Feb. 4 to conduct a search of the government-issued BlackBerry used by David Livingston during a period when the Ontario Liberals were under fire for cancelling two gas plants at a potential loss of up to $1.1 billion.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Really great As It Happens story re jailed Canadian journalist Mohamed Fahmy. Baird may have resigned because Harper opposed him. Link not up yet.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So long Fox News North. They increased viewership from 7000 to 8000 in the last year but it wasn't enough. 200 people collecting unemployment.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> It's also great to see JT's promise not to interfere in the nomination process as he promised:
> 
> Varinder Bhullar seeks injuction after being denied chance to run for Liberals - Edmonton - CBC News


Amarjeet Sohi to be acclaimed Liberal candidate for Millwoods - Edmonton - CBC News

Bhullar calls decision 'murder of democracy'


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Excellent. Steve's burned out another comms boy -
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...rticle22990941/?service=mobile&click=sf_globe


----------



## Macfury

He lasted much longer than most spokespeople for a PM of either party.

However, unlike the Liberal spokespeople who leave, this one was offered work in the private sector.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Excellent. Steve's burned out another comms boy -
> Harper's chief spokesman Jason MacDonald to quit - The Globe and Mail


----------



## FeXL

On the Liberal policy position regarding war against ISIS.

John Ivison: Even if the Liberals change course on Iraq, the damage to Trudeau’s reputation may already be done



> As polls continue to suggest that three out of four Canadians support the use of force to stop the Islamic State — including a similar percentage in Quebec, where support for combat missions has historically been lower — *the Liberals are shifting their stance in subtle fashion.*


So, once again, instead of making a stand & sticking with it, you make a statement, find it's unpopular, waffle your way over to a less offensive position & hope the electorate doesn't notice what kind of a snake in the grass you really are...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

fexl said:


> on the liberal policy position regarding war against isis.


----------



## Macfury

Clearly that sour Liberal voter with the belly flab will not vote for the PM in the first place. However, she many not vote for JT either,


----------



## FeXL

So, Jimbo, you don't consider ISIS a credible threat in Canada?


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> So, Jimbo, you don't consider ISIS a credible threat in Canada?


He's not worried, after all JT will make another stunning pronouncement any day now and rid us of this minor inconvenience. Ya know, like kill 'em with kindness thingy he is so good at.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Heave Steve!


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> He's not worried, after all JT will make another stunning pronouncement any day now and rid us of this minor inconvenience. Ya know, like kill 'em with kindness thingy he is so good at.


Hugs, not slugs!


----------



## Macfury

This is why we need to continue to cut taxes in Canada! If I were that factory owner I would have done the same thing.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Heave Steve!
> 
> View attachment 54082


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Excellent. Sentencing next. 

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/Judge...ending+case/10822371/story.html#__federated=1


----------



## screature

This is not news to anyone here.

What exactly is your point? Do you even have one? 

If you do then maybe you should spend a minute or two to make your original thoughts heard.

You have a great opportunity here to post what you really think in your own words, but sadly it seems you have very few. Just 3 words to be exact in your last post.

You continually seem to think that somehow you are posting "news" or anything original here by merely posting to links to "news" stories here that we already know.

Your posts here, as I have mentioned before, are very much better suited to Twitter. Little to no original/individual/personal thoughts. You will get much more "traction" there in that vacuous world. But here it is really tiresome and boring.

I suspect you could do better here if you took the time. If you don't have the time then maybe just refrain from posting until you have something to add other than just a link to old "news".


----------



## heavyall

New poll finds Harper's anti-terror bill is a political juggernaut - The Globe and Mail



> *There’s rarely been a bill before Parliament that was more popular. *The public Conservatives’ new anti-terror legislation is filling a public demand for tough new measures aimed at a terrorism threat that Canadians believe is serious, and close to home, according to a new poll.
> 
> More than four in five Canadians – *82 per cent – back the new legislation* to expand the powers of intelligence agencies and police, according to the survey of 1,509 Canadians conducted by the Angus Reid Institute. Far from seeing it as too sweeping, they tend to want more: *36 per cent say it does not go far enough*.


Bolds are mine.

When is the last time such a large proportion of Canadians agreed with anything the government was doing? It's fun to see the opposition on the wrong side of even their own supporters. Trudeau is hilariously trying to straddle the tightrope by saying he opposes the bill, but voting for it anyway. Makes it easy to give different answers depending on who he's talking to.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> When is the last time such a large proportion of Canadians agreed with anything the government was doing? It's fun to see the opposition on the wrong side of even their own supporters.


I'd be interested in knowing whether many (any) of those polled who support the bill have a clue as to what it contains / represents.

Democracy is wasted on the stupid, apparently.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> I'd be interested in knowing whether many (any) of those polled who support the bill have a clue as to what it contains / represents.
> 
> Democracy is wasted on the stupid, apparently.



You have the dynamic backwards. It's those who do not support it who are both stupid and don't know what the bill contains. It'll be the same group of people who think healthcare funding is being cut (when it's really being increased).


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> You have the dynamic backwards. It's those who do not support it who are both stupid and don't know what the bill contains. It'll be the same group of people who think healthcare funding is being cut (when it's really being increased).


Let's see a bill allowing the feds to arrest someone based on what the authorities think that someone is thinking is somehow a good idea? Maybe if your goal is tyranny. If you believe in minor things like human rights and basic liberty not so much.

If we give up the things like free speech to fight terrorism it seems to me the terrorists have already won.

Especially when there is a big flurry of terrorist attacks exactly coinciding with the introduction of the bill. More so when almost identical bills are introduced in various no longer free nations. The timing here is way, way, way too suspicious.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Especially when there is a big flurry of terrorist attacks exactly coinciding with the introduction of the bill. More so when almost identical bills are introduced in various no longer free nations. The timing here is way, way, way too suspicious.


What size tinfoil hat do you take?


----------



## CubaMark

*Tom Mulcair: It is crucial that anti-terrorism measures do not erode fundamental freedoms*

_The Prime Minister is telling Canadians they need to choose between their security and their rights — that safety and freedom are mutually exclusive. Instead of putting forward concrete measures to make Canadians safer and protect our freedoms, Conservatives have put politics over principle and introduced a bill that is sweeping, dangerously vague, and likely ineffective.

C-51 would give CSIS a huge new mandate to “disrupt” the activities of people or groups it believes to pose a threat. That sounds OK, but the Minister for Public Safety and his officials refuse or are unable to describe what activities this new mandate covers, while experts are concerned it would lump legal dissent and protest together with actual terrorism.

There are already serious deficiencies in oversight of CSIS. The last report from the under-resourced Security Intelligence Review Committee found that CSIS had “seriously misled” the Committee in one investigation, and that the Committee faced “difficulties” and “significant delays” obtaining information about the spy agency’s activities. This is on top of the Harper Government’s decision to eliminate the office of the CSIS Inspector General in 2012, which further weakened oversight. With these serious shortcomings it is irresponsible to give an agency such sweeping new powers without enhancing oversight to make certain freedom doesn’t hang in the balance.

C-51 would make it an offense to “advocate or promote terrorism in general,” but Canada already has strong laws that make it an offense to incite a terrorist act. Experts say the language in this new provision is vague and open-ended. It could also vastly expand the types of statements that could get a Canadian arrested, regardless of whether they’re a real threat or not. Anyone who is genuinely inciting violence against others must be stopped, but it is crucial that the measures keeping Canadians safe do not erode our fundamental freedoms._

(Full statement at: The National Post)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I'd be interested in knowing whether many (any) of those polled who support the bill have a clue as to what it contains / represents.
> 
> *Democracy is wasted on the stupid, apparently.*


Really!!?? I mean... Really!!!??? 

Democracy! But only so long as it represents my point of view.

Sorry but that post deserves a raspberry.

tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Thomas Mulcair wants to take my hard earned money and impose an idiotic carbon tax--that's more of an erosion of my freedom than anything he's braying about.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Tom Mulcair: It is crucial that anti-terrorism measures do not erode fundamental freedoms*
> 
> _The Prime Minister is telling Canadians they need to choose between their security and their rights — that safety and freedom are mutually exclusive. Instead of putting forward concrete measures to make Canadians safer and protect our freedoms, Conservatives have put politics over principle and introduced a bill that is sweeping, dangerously vague, and likely ineffective.
> 
> C-51 would give CSIS a huge new mandate to “disrupt” the activities of people or groups it believes to pose a threat. That sounds OK, but the Minister for Public Safety and his officials refuse or are unable to describe what activities this new mandate covers, while experts are concerned it would lump legal dissent and protest together with actual terrorism.
> 
> There are already serious deficiencies in oversight of CSIS. The last report from the under-resourced Security Intelligence Review Committee found that CSIS had “seriously misled” the Committee in one investigation, and that the Committee faced “difficulties” and “significant delays” obtaining information about the spy agency’s activities. This is on top of the Harper Government’s decision to eliminate the office of the CSIS Inspector General in 2012, which further weakened oversight. With these serious shortcomings it is irresponsible to give an agency such sweeping new powers without enhancing oversight to make certain freedom doesn’t hang in the balance.
> 
> C-51 would make it an offense to “advocate or promote terrorism in general,” but Canada already has strong laws that make it an offense to incite a terrorist act. Experts say the language in this new provision is vague and open-ended. It could also vastly expand the types of statements that could get a Canadian arrested, regardless of whether they’re a real threat or not. Anyone who is genuinely inciting violence against others must be stopped, but it is crucial that the measures keeping Canadians safe do not erode our fundamental freedoms._
> 
> (Full statement at: The National Post)



Yes, yes, we all know TM's point of view while wearing his tin foil hat. But as was asked in debate today in the HoC, show me one instance in Bill C-51 where any human rights or liberties are being denied? 

You can't because there are none. It is just pure FUD on the part of the Opposition.

All the Opposition has is pure speculation of what could be/may be with a dollop of conspiracy theory, a splash of FUD and a whole lot of politicking.

82% of Canadians get that, despite your despicable, elitist and condescending previous post and TM's words to the *VAST* majority of Canadians who are somehow misguided or just plain *stupid* (your word not mine) in your and his opinion...

But then again that sounds about right for the Tom Mulcair I encountered in the Confederation Building Cafeteria when he was still just a a "Critic" under Layton. 

He was an arrogant ass to the staff then and I can only imagine how arrogant he is now to the Cafeteria staff in Centre Block now that he is Leader of the Official Opposition... but then again he doesn't stand in line anymore to get his meal... he just has a "staffer" to do that for him and place it on his desk.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Yes, yes, we all know TM's point of view while wearing his tin foil hat. But as was asked in debate today in the HoC, show me one instance in Bill C-51 where any human rights or liberties are being denied?


The vagueness of C-51 is clear to anyone who has bothered to *read the bill *and the analysis of people who have some expertise in the area.

In the HoC, you may have noticed that the Conservatives aren't too keen on answering any questions relating to specific issues of rights violations.

Why is that? Hmmmm.

_Questions about scope, oversight and whether protests are exempt from the government's new anti-terrorism bill remain unanswered as the Conservatives rush C-51 from the House of Commons to committee.

Many of the responses from Conservative cabinet ministers and government MPs are at odds with the concerns raised by legal experts and opposition MPs. At the same time, the government is leaving open the possibility the bill will be amended when it gets to committee — an action it has in the past used its majority to avoid doing. 

Defence Minister Jason Kenney said Thursday that the new powers provided for in the bill are really for judges, whose approval would be required on some of the proposed activities of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS).

"It doesn't give new powers to police or intelligence agencies but rather to judges, to courts, who, for example, can order the detention of a suspected terrorist for up to seven days," Kenney said.

New Democrat public safety critic Randall Garrison said the judicial warrants cover only a small amount of what's provided for in C-51.

"The disruption activities only require judicial warrants if they're going to do something, which CSIS judges is illegal or unconstitutional," he told CBC News.

"So all kinds of other activities can be carried out, disruptive activities, without any supervision from anyone."_

(CBC)​
*Further reading:*


"Total Information Awareness": The Disastrous Privacy Consequences of Bill C-51 - Michael Geist
Canada's new anti-terror Bill C-51 concerns Privacy Commissioner | Toronto Sun
Critics fear Bill C-51 could lead to unintended consequences - Macleans
Bill C-51 moves us one step closer to the end of privacy | Toronto Star
Bill C-51: We Must All Stand On Guard For Canada - HuffPo
*
And there's more!*

Bill C-51: 4 Former PMs Call For Better Intelligence Accountability



> Four former prime ministers and several retired Supreme Court members are among almost two dozen prominent Canadians calling for stronger security oversight.
> 
> Their statement, published Thursday in the Globe and Mail and La Presse newspapers, comes as the Conservative government proposes a new, expanded mandate for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to counter terrorist threats.





> The joint statement published Thursday was signed by Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, *Joe Clark*, John Turner and 18 others involved in security matters over the years.
> 
> *They include five former Supreme Court justices, seven former Liberal solicitors general and ministers of justice, three past members of the intelligence review committee, two former privacy commissioners and a retired RCMP watchdog.*
> 
> They note that detailed recommendations for a new intelligence watchdog regime — put forward in 2006 by the federal inquiry into the Maher Arar torture affair — *were not implemented*.
> 
> Efforts to enhance parliamentary oversight of national security agencies have also been unsuccessful, they point out.
> 
> Several groups including Amnesty International, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the National Council of Canadian Muslims welcomed the statement.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> The vagueness of C-51 is clear to anyone who has bothered to *read the bill *and the analysis of people who have some expertise in the area.
> 
> In the HoC, you may have noticed that the Conservatives aren't too keen on answering any questions relating to specific issues of rights violations.
> 
> Why is that? Hmmmm.
> 
> _Questions about scope, oversight and whether protests are exempt from the government's new anti-terrorism bill remain unanswered as the Conservatives rush C-51 from the House of Commons to committee.
> 
> Many of the responses from Conservative cabinet ministers and government MPs are at odds with the concerns raised by legal experts and opposition MPs. At the same time, the government is leaving open the possibility the bill will be amended when it gets to committee — an action it has in the past used its majority to avoid doing.
> 
> Defence Minister Jason Kenney said Thursday that the new powers provided for in the bill are really for judges, whose approval would be required on some of the proposed activities of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS).
> 
> "It doesn't give new powers to police or intelligence agencies but rather to judges, to courts, who, for example, can order the detention of a suspected terrorist for up to seven days," Kenney said.
> 
> New Democrat public safety critic Randall Garrison said the judicial warrants cover only a small amount of what's provided for in C-51.
> 
> "The disruption activities only require judicial warrants if they're going to do something, which CSIS judges is illegal or unconstitutional," he told CBC News.
> 
> "So all kinds of other activities can be carried out, disruptive activities, without any supervision from anyone."_
> 
> (CBC)​
> *Further reading:*
> 
> 
> "Total Information Awareness": The Disastrous Privacy Consequences of Bill C-51 - Michael Geist
> Canada's new anti-terror Bill C-51 concerns Privacy Commissioner | Toronto Sun
> Critics fear Bill C-51 could lead to unintended consequences - Macleans
> Bill C-51 moves us one step closer to the end of privacy | Toronto Star
> Bill C-51: We Must All Stand On Guard For Canada - HuffPo
> *
> And there's more!*
> 
> Bill C-51: 4 Former PMs Call For Better Intelligence Accountability


Do you really think you are telling me anything I don't already know?

Your arrogance is astounding!


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Do you really think you are telling me anything I don't already know?


Apparently I am, and yet you seem unable to grasp it.



screature said:


> Your arrogance is astounding!


Yup. There it is. The same tool employed by the right-wingers down South to great effect: I disagree with your position, and because I have something beyond a high school diploma, I am therefore an 'intellectual elite' who just 'doesn't get' what anybody with 'common sense' can plainly see. Praise god, pass the ammunition. Yee-haw!


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Apparently I am, and yet you seem unable to grasp it.
> 
> Yup. There it is. The same tool employed by the right-wingers down South to great effect: I disagree with your position, and because I have something beyond a high school diploma, I am therefore an 'intellectual elite' who just 'doesn't get' what anybody with 'common sense' can plainly see. Praise god, pass the ammunition. Yee-haw!


Uhh you seemed to have bypassed this:



CubaMark said:


> I'd be interested in knowing whether many (any) of those polled who support the bill have a clue as to what it contains / represents.
> 
> Democracy is wasted on the stupid, apparently.





> Really!!?? I mean... Really!!!???
> 
> Democracy! But only so long as it represents my point of view.
> 
> Sorry but that post deserves a raspberry.
> 
> tptptptp


I wonder why that was? Perhaps because you have no defense for you despicable statement?

Not a very good attempt to dodge your, well shall I say, shameful post.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Apparently I am, and yet you seem unable to grasp it.
> 
> Yup. There it is. The same tool employed by the right-wingers down South to great effect: I disagree with your position, and because I have something beyond a high school diploma, I am therefore an 'intellectual elite' who just 'doesn't get' what anybody with 'common sense' can plainly see. Praise god, pass the ammunition. Yee-haw!


I live and breath this stuff every day lest you forget!! 

That is why your post was arrogant and I do not need to be *schooled* by you in Canadian politics, thank you very much!

I have read and digested everything that you linked to before you ever posted it and that you seem to think I would not have already read them all is astounding to me coming from an expat who thinks they can try and *teach* me something about contemporary Canadian politics... sorry I find that rather comical if not down right insulting.

Once again the arrogance is palpable. You seem to expect respect for your expertise and experience but seem to be all too willing to dismiss the experience and expertise of others.

No wonder you support Tom Mulcair, two peas in a pod it seems.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> I live and breath his stuff every day lest you forget!!
> 
> That is why your post was arrogant and I do not need to be *schooled* by you in Canadian politics, thank you very much!
> 
> I have read and digested everything that you linked to before you ever posted it and that you seem to think I would not have already read them all is astounding to me coming from an expat who thinks they can try and *teach* me something about contemporary Canadian politics... sorry I find that rather comical if not down right insulting.
> 
> Once again the arrogance is palpable. You seem to expect respect for your expertise and experience but seem to be all too willing to dismiss the experience and expertise of others.
> 
> No wonder you support Tom Mulcair, two peas in a pod it seems.


Ahh a favorite con tactic. When you know you're wrong: Insult rather than debate. 

A bill whose chief intent is to disrupt or intimidate free speech is just plain wrong; Stalin knew it, Hitler knew it, Bush knew it and Harper knows it too. No matter how hard you try to put a positive spin on it, Bill C-51 is wrong.

Since 9/11/2001, in Canada terrorists have killed an average of 1/7th of a person every year, so you won't find me cowering in a broom closet in fear of terrorists. However a Prime Minister who demands a tyrants control over free speech, has gone way beyond terrorism and is truly an individual all Canadians need to fear.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> The vagueness of C-51 is clear to anyone who has bothered to *read the bill *and the analysis of people who have some expertise in the area.
> 
> In the HoC, you may have noticed that the Conservatives aren't too keen on answering any questions relating to specific issues of rights violations.
> 
> Why is that? Hmmmm.


With regard to the question you posed CM, regarding reading the bill, here is the information from the same Angus Reid poll regarding how informed the respondents were of information regarding the bill. 

Interesting the Majority of Respondents views were informed by:


Angus Reid Poll said:


> "Just scanned/saw the headlines...Not read/seen anything at all."


 http://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015.02.19-C51.pdf


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> With regard to the question you posed CM, regarding reading the bill, here is the information from the same Angus Reid poll regarding how informed the respondents were of information regarding the bill.


How do you suppose this differs from any government legislation or political issue, Big DL? Many people who support a carbon tax don't remotely understand either the political issue or the lack of science behind it.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *Ahh a favorite con tactic. When you know you're wrong: Insult rather than debate. *
> 
> *A bill whose chief intent is to disrupt or intimidate free speech* is just plain wrong; Stalin knew it, Hitler knew it, Bush knew it and Harper knows it too. No matter how hard you try to put a positive spin on it, Bill C-51 is wrong.
> 
> Since 9/11/2001, in Canada terrorists have killed an average of 1/7th of a person every year, so you won't find me cowering in a broom closet in fear of terrorists. However a Prime Minister who demands a tyrants control over free speech, has gone way beyond terrorism and is truly an individual all Canadians need to fear.


There was no personal insult... show me where.

Complete and utter rubbish, that is not the Bill's intent. That you think that is the intent of the Bill just belies your own political proclivities as it does for the likes of Ralph Nader.

The Bill's intent is to thwart and disrupt terrorist's activities *before* they happen.

If that means stopping some Eco-terrorist from blowing up a pipeline, as has happened in the past, so be it. 

Nothing will be changed for all lawful forms of dissent. But if you plan/conspire to blow things up or kill people as a means of dissent you will be charged and go to jail, as it should be.

Also just to add the very important detail that those on the left conveniently leave out is that these new powers require judicial oversight i.e. a judge has to issue a warrant, there are checks and balances in place despite all the FUD being spouted by the left.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> How do you suppose this differs from any government legislation or political issue, Big DL? Many people who support a carbon tax don't remotely understand either the political issue or the lack of science behind it.


Exactly. And that is why I said what I did to CM:



> Democracy! But only so long as it represents my point of view.


And even though the majority of Canadians oppose his point of view, they are just stupid in his mind because they don't agree with him.

Yep, that is a leftist's view of what democracy should be for you right there...

Philosopher Kings/Dictators (Castro, Kim Jong-un, etc.)/potentates etc., they know best so they should be in power for life to rule the *stupid* masses.

Maybe CM thinks people should have to pass an "IQ" test before someone is eligible to vote?


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> There was no personal insult... show me where.


Well, from where I come from, calling someone 'arrogant' is pretty much a personal insult.



screature said:


> The Bill's intent is to thwart and disrupt terrorist's activities *before* they happen.
> 
> If that means stopping some Eco-terrorist from blowing up a pipeline, as has happened in the past, so be it.


...somehow I doubt it would ever be used to stop a mountie from doing the same....


----------



## Macfury

Back to the turn of the century are we? I remember you posted that as "news" recently.



CubaMark said:


> Well, from where I come from, calling someone 'arrogant' is pretty much a personal insult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...somehow I doubt it would ever be used to stop a mountie from doing the same....


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Ahh a favorite con tactic. When you know you're wrong: Insult rather than debate.
> 
> A bill whose chief intent is to disrupt or intimidate free speech is just plain wrong; Stalin knew it, Hitler knew it, Bush knew it and Harper knows it too. No matter how hard you try to put a positive spin on it, Bill C-51 is wrong.
> 
> Since 9/11/2001, in Canada terrorists have killed an average of 1/7th of a person every year, so you won't find me cowering in a broom closet in fear of terrorists. However a Prime Minister who demands a tyrants control over free speech, has gone way beyond terrorism and is truly an individual all Canadians need to fear.





screature said:


> There was no personal insult... show me where.
> 
> Complete and utter rubbish, that is not the Bill's intent. That you think that is the intent of the Bill just belies your own political proclivities as it does for the likes of Ralph Nader.
> 
> *The Bill's intent is to thwart and disrupt terrorist's activities before they happen.*
> 
> If that means stopping some Eco-terrorist from blowing up a pipeline, as has happened in the past, so be it.
> 
> Nothing will be changed for all lawful forms of dissent. But if you plan/conspire to blow things up or kill people as a means of dissent you will be charged and go to jail, as it should be.
> 
> Also just to add the very important detail that those on the left conveniently leave out is that these new powers require judicial oversight i.e. a judge has to issue a warrant, there are checks and balances in place despite all the FUD being spouted by the left.


Complete and total BS. First of all this explanation came from a politician and his lips were moving, that alone places the probability that it contains any truth very close to zero.

Secret courts, warrantless searches, detention based on what some hidden authority believes someones intentions might (or more likely might not) be; these are the tools of true terrorists. One of the most notorious proponents of such tools was of course Joseph Stalin and if Canadians are too fear any one, it should be a Prime Minister who wants to include such weapons of tyranny in his arsenal.

Like I said before, with terrorists killing an average of 1/7th of a Canadian a year, I will happily face the threat of terrorists without fear or loss of sleep.

BTW the eco terrorist blew up an abandoned shed. Worse than that the "eco-terrorist" was an under cover RCMP officer.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Back to the turn of the century are we? I remember you posted that as "news" recently.


Yes, and I used it as an example because it fit the moment and it's one I had at hand. 

Or do you feel there should be a statute of limitations on crimes committed by agents of the state against civilians?

Interesting worldview for a libertarian.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Well, from where I come from, *calling someone 'arrogant' *is pretty much a personal insult.


Not if they are it is just a simple statement of fact. And you were being arrogant.

I'm not saying you are an arrogant person in general, I don't you well enough to make that claim but your posts were most definitely arrogant.

Here is what you said to 82% of the population of Canada and to me personally:



CubaMark said:


> I'd be interested in knowing whether many (any) of those polled who support the bill have a clue as to what it contains / represents.
> 
> *Democracy is wasted on the stupid,* apparently.





CubaMark said:


> Apparently I am, and yet *you seem unable to grasp it*...


So tell me who was being insulting? You insulted 82% of Canada's population in general and then me personally. 

Maybe it is time that you took a step back and look at your own statements, before criticizing those of others.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Complete and total BS. First of all this explanation came from a politician and his lips were moving, that alone places the probability that it contains any truth very close to zero.
> 
> *Secret courts, warrantless searches,detention based on what some hidden authority believes someones intentions might (or more likely might not) be; these are the tools of true terrorists.* One of the most notorious proponents of such tools was of course Joseph Stalin and if Canadians are too fear any one, it should be a Prime Minister who wants to include such weapons of tyranny in his arsenal.
> 
> Like I said before, with terrorists killing an average of 1/7th of a Canadian a year, I will happily face the threat of terrorists without fear or loss of sleep.
> 
> *BTW the eco terrorist blew up an abandoned shed. Worse than that the "eco-terrorist" was an under cover RCMP officer.*


WRONG!! Completely wrong. That just goes to show how ill informed you are when it comes to Bill C-51. That little tidbit just goes to show that you have not read the Bill and are just posting based on opinion formed by what you have read in your tinfoil hat wearing "alternate" media and not actually have formed by reading the Bill.

You seem to have a very selective memory. This is what I am talking about... You were alive at the time so you should be aware of it:

2008–09 British Columbia pipeline bombings

As for the rest of your post it is completely ridiculous and wrong once again and I am not going to even waste my time addressing it.


----------



## FeXL

On the contrary...

Kathleen Wynne should stop digging a hole



> There was a moment in her news conference Friday when embattled Premier Kathleen Wynne sounded like a big, bad bully.
> 
> Just when you thought she’d be contrite and understand she’s in an ugly little corner, she came out punching, saying MPPs from other parties had come to her and the Liberals seeking appointments in return for giving up their seats.
> 
> *That’s a pretty stunning allegation for someone who has two party members — one a senior member of her own staff — under investigation by both the OPP and Elections Ontario* for what Elections Ontario CEO Greg Essensa calls, “apparent contraventions of Subsection 96.1(E) of the Election Act.”


M'bold.

Somebody, quick, hand her the keys to a backhoe...


----------



## FeXL

Yep...

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau is running out of second chances: Goar



> This would be a fine time for Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau to start demonstrating the maturity, self-discipline and competence to lead the nation.
> 
> His political record to date has been marred by misjudgments, ill-considered remarks and discarded promises. He has put forward few substantive policies to counteract these eyebrow-raising moves. His admirers are getting nervous; *his detractors are rubbing their hands.*


M'bold.

Why, yes. Yes, we are...beejacon

At the link, find 7 splendid examples why he should not now, nor ever, move into Sussex Drive...


----------



## SINC

One has to wonder how any clear thinking Canadian would even consider a vote for such an immature and untested young man. He ain't his daddy, folks.


----------



## Macfury

One would think that was a good thing, but sadly in this case it is far worse. Sniffing moonbeams is not a resume.



SINC said:


> He ain't his daddy, folks.


----------



## Macfury

ThreeHundredEight.com: 2015 Canadian federal election projection

308 is still predicting a Conservative win, even without another half-year progression of Justin's foot-in-mouth disease.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> ...
> 
> You seem to have a very selective memory. This is what I am talking about... You were alive at the time so you should be aware of it:
> 
> 2008–09 British Columbia pipeline bombings
> 
> As for the rest of your post it is completely ridiculous and wrong once again and I am not going to even waste my time addressing it.


That one gave me a really good laugh. The RCMP literally pre-convicted Wiebo Ludwig and never even looked at another possible culprit. Every agency in Canada was sharing info on him. On top of that Wiebo was not at all an active user of the internet or social media.

The RCMP lured him away from his farm, then officers swarmed the farm and conducted a three day search of it. They came up with mounds of evidence, including 75 grams of Marijuana and a small amount of Potassium Nitrate. Small enough that it could be explained away as being needed by the kids for chemistry experiments during home schooling.

No charges were laid. Given Ludwigs aversion to computers, the only way Bill C-51 could have obtained a conviction or prevented the bombings was via a secret trial where the only evidence required was the Mounties saying: "We know he did it." or "We know he's going to do it." 



> This is from the Toronto Star:
> 
> “So far, the only opposition MP with enough guts to critique the content of the Conservative government’s new anti-terror bill is Green Party Leader Elizabeth May.”
> 
> In late January, the Harper Conservatives introduced a new bill under the guise of fighting terrorism that is invasive, overreaching and dangerously vague.
> 
> Acts of terrorism are a threat that must be addressed, but C-51 is not primarily an anti-terrorism law. We already have anti-terror laws, prohibiting terrorism, treason, sedition, espionage, and the proliferation of nuclear and biological weapons.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Bill C-51 would expand CSIS’ powers [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to enable them to conduct any operation it thinks is in the interest of Canadian security. [/FONT]The definition of activities “undermining the security of Canada” is vague and undefined, and lists at least nine types of threats, including interference with “economic or financial stability,” “global information infrastructure,” and “critical infrastructure.”
> 
> *These definitions are so overly broad they could apply to almost anything. Elizabeth has twice asked the government whether C-51 would apply to non-violent civil disobedience, such as blockading along a pipeline route. Neither Public Safety Minister Stephen Blaney nor Justice Minister Peter MacKay would provide that assurance. Without assurances to the contrary, we can only assume this bill could now treat peaceful protesters as potential terrorists.*
> 
> The government’s own Privacy Commissioner said the bill will allow too much information sharing, and that it will impact the privacy of innocent Canadians.
> This new legislation risks turning the Canadian Security Intelligence Service into a “secret police force” without proper oversight or accountability.


----------



## eMacMan

I have already exploded various myths regarding the governments signing of the FATCA-IGA.

It has been abundantly clear from day one that this has nothing to do with catching tax cheats.

The governments admission that it was blackmailed into the agreement is more than sufficient evidence that the intent of the agreement is outright extortion, not just against Canadians tainted by a US connection, but against the Canadian Banks as well. There is nothing in the agreement that would preclude the IRS from leveling massive fines against Canadian Financial institutions or even the atomic bomb of with-holding 30% of all US sourced income from those Institutions. Indeed such actions are included as incentive to force Canadian Banks to comply with the regulation.

The only remaining claim was that signing the agreement would keep banks from denying service to US customers. Yep that claim has gone bust as well.
Alberta online bank first in Canada to shun U.S. clients amid tax rules - The Globe and Mail


> An Alberta *online* bank is believed to be the first Canadian financial institution to deny service to Americans, citing the burden of complying with strict new U.S. tax rules.
> 
> 
> Canadian Direct Financial, a subsidiary of Edmonton-based Canadian Western Bank, is refusing to open new Internet accounts for U.S. citizens, even to those living in Canada.
> 
> 
> The bank said the decision is “partly based” on the legal requirements of a U.S. law that has forced financial institutions around the world to track accounts held by Americans for U.S. tax authorities.
> 
> 
> “The information and documentation required to open and monitor an account within [Canadian Direct Financial] for a U.S citizen or resident outside of Canada is prohibitive to providing the level of service our clients expect and deserve,” explained Kirby Hill, a Canadian Western Bank vice-president and spokesman.


The Globe and Mail link is genuine. *The link appearing within the quote is not mine nor does it come from the Globe and Mail. It is an ad link placed by ehMac. Do not click on that link!*


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> That one gave me a really good laugh. *The RCMP literally pre-convicted Wiebo Ludwig* and never even looked at another possible culprit. Every agency in Canada was sharing info on him. On top of that Wiebo was not at all an active user of the internet or social media.
> 
> The RCMP lured him away from his farm, then officers swarmed the farm and conducted a three day search of it. They came up with mounds of evidence, including 75 grams of Marijuana and a small amount of Potassium Nitrate. Small enough that it could be explained away as being needed by the kids for chemistry experiments during home schooling.
> 
> No charges were laid. Given Ludwigs aversion to computers, the only way Bill C-51 could have obtained a conviction or prevented the bombings was via a secret trial where the only evidence required was the Mounties saying: "We know he did it." or "We know he's going to do it."


Talk about a good laugh. :lmao:

The RCMP is literally incapable and does not have the power to convict anyone. That is left for the courts to decide. Have you never watched a single episode of Law and Order? Not even one? Clearly not it would seem.

In Canada there are many levels of *law enforcement* and as well many levels of *judiciary/order*.

So never mind your flagrant hyperbole and seeming lack of understanding of *law and order*. The RCMP had one prime suspect so they followed that lead/path and ultimately, law and order prevailed, Wiebo Ludwig was not charged because the judiciary found that there was not enough evidence to indict him. 

Now that does not necessarily mean that Wiebo Ludwig didn't do the deed, there was just not enough evidence to indict him. He may be innocent but then again he may just have been very good at covering up his tracks... it wouldn't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last time that such a thing happens, but maybe Bill C-51 will make it more difficult to happen.

All that being said all of this does not speak to my point, that of there being such a thing as Eco-terrorism. In those terms, It does not matter if Wiebo Ludwig was guilty or innocent, someone did it and their motivation was clearly political and an attack on infrastructure meant to terrorize and disrupt by violent means.

Either Wiebo Ludwig got away with a politically motivated violent criminal act or someone else did, it was still Eco-terrorism and does not invalidate the example I provided.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

But the reality isn't very interesting:

RCMP called "anti-petroleum" critics a potential security threat | Toronto Star



> Prepared by the RCMP’s critical infrastructure intelligence team, the threat assessment dated Jan. 24, 2014 says: “There is a growing, highly organized and well-financed, anti-Canadian petroleum movement that consists of peaceful activists, militants and violent extremists, who are opposed to society’s reliance on fossil fuels.


So, essentially "violent" anti-petroleum critics.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Talk about a good laugh. :lmao:
> 
> 
> Now that does not necessarily mean that Wiebo Ludwig didn't do the deed, there was just not enough evidence to indict him. He may be innocent but then again he may just have been very good at covering up his tracks... it wouldn't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last time that such a thing happens, but maybe Bill C-51 will make it more difficult to happen.
> 
> All that being said all of this does not speak to my point, that of there being such a thing as Eco-terrorism. In those terms, It does not matter if Wiebo Ludwig was guilty or innocent, someone did it and their motivation was clearly political and an attack on infrastructure meant to terrorize and disrupt by violent means.
> 
> Either Wiebo Ludwig got away with a politically motivated violent criminal act or someone else did, it was still Eco-terrorism and does not invalidate the example I provided.


Again absolutely no proof that other agencies with held information from the RCMP. The only way bill C51 could have altered the outcome is if CSIS interpreted "any means" as allowing them to lock up Mr. Ludwig without trial trial or even credible evidence. 

Whether or not you want to label Wiebo an Eco Terrorist has zero impact on the average of 1/7th of a Canadian per annum dying at the hands of terrorists. The only death that can be blamed on Wiebo was related to a press corps that painted him as a villain to the point where several teenagers went on a midnight joy ride through his property and one of them paid the ultimate price. That was an act of self defense. One could argue that the actions of the teenagers should have been labeled criminal trespass and felony menacing.

Now the Harper government has time and again illustrated that it believes the needs of Big Business supersede its obligations to ordinary Canadians, the Charter of Rights and even the Constitution. This amply illustrated by their unwillingness to answer Elizabeth Mays simple straightforward question.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> But the reality isn't very interesting:
> 
> RCMP called "anti-petroleum" critics a potential security threat | Toronto Star
> 
> 
> So, essentially "violent" anti-petroleum critics.


I believe one of the ConMeißters has already dismissed the RCMP as totally incompetent so perhaps this should be entirely viewed as hype for Bill C51's attack on civil liberties?

Regardless the threat from terrorists is never as great as the threat from those running the protection rackets.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I believe one of the ConMeißters has already dismissed the RCMP as totally incompetent so perhaps this should be entirely viewed as hype for Bill C51's attack on civil liberties?
> 
> Regardless the threat from terrorists is never as great as the threat from those running the protection rackets.


eMacMan, don't you support the government running the health care system?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> eMacMan, don't you support the government running the health care system?


Not sure how that relates as the Government funds the Canadian health care system it does not run it. Running it would, I am sure, create a monster similar to the VA hospital system soused of the border.

I have frequently said that the Canadian Health Care system is better than its US counterpart. That is of course a relatively low bar but I have seen the sheer madness that went along with accessing major health care stateside and Obama Care has done little or nothing to address the issue.


----------



## Macfury

Provincial government run it. Was just wondering if your mistrust of government involved only the federal portion.



eMacMan said:


> Not sure how that relates as the Government funds the Canadian health care system it does not run it. Running it would, I am sure, create a monster similar to the VA hospital system soused of the border.
> 
> I have frequently said that the Canadian Health Care system is better than its US counterpart. That is of course a relatively low bar but I have seen the sheer madness that went along with accessing major health care stateside and Obama Care has done little or nothing to address the issue.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Provincial government run it. Was just wondering if your mistrust of government involved only the federal portion.


The closer a government is to the electorate, the more responsible it tends to be. Of course the feds have set the bar so low that it takes very little to make any provincial government look good by comparison. 

Our small town evicted the entire town council when it became very apparent that they felt their job was to funnel the towns very limited resources to PC buddies that lived two or even three hundred miles away.

As to distrusting the feds:

Just in my lifetime federal governments of ALL persuasions have worked extremely hard to earn my distrust. The Gulf of Tonkin, Vietnam War, the debt vortex created by Reagan's cut taxes while increasing spending mantra, the post 9-11 assault on civil Liberties, the great Bankster Heist, Obama Care, the Martin/Harper anti internet privacy bill, The Harper/IRS FATCA agreement, The Harper Bill which made dual citizens second class Canadian citizens, Bill C51 and that little three word phrase "use any means" …………………………………………………………………..

One has to work very hard to ignore such a list. 

Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were very well aware of the dangers of trusting a federal government and did what they could to place reasonable restraints. Even so they were very well aware that an essential element of democracy was citizens keeping a very wary eye on their governments.

I find it quite distressing when anyone suggests a government should be trusted simply because they bill themselves as being the "good guys". If they were that good they would not be working that hard to destroy the liberties they are supposedly there to help preserve.


----------



## Macfury

I live in Ontario and I trust the provincial government far less than the feds. IMHO none of them can be trusted with anything important to me.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I live in Ontario and I trust the provincial government far less than the feds. IMHO none of them can be trusted with anything important to me.


I trust politicians to do what is in their "best interest", serves their and their party's agenda/ideology/priorities and addresses the base of their supporters concerns. Once in a while some of those align with my "best interest", ideology and priorities. Those politicians and political parties that score the highest in matching their "best interest", ideology and priorities to mine are the ones that I vote for. I think this is the basis upon which most people choose to cast their vote.

Some people do base their vote on superficial things, looks for example (JT anyone), but hopefully they are in the minority.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I trust politicians to do what is in their "best interest", serves their and their party's agenda/ideology/priorities and addresses the base of their supports concerns. Once in a while some of those align with my "best interest", ideology and priorities. Those politicians and political parties that score the highest in matching their "best interest", ideology and priorities to mine are the ones that I vote for. I think this is the basis upon which most people choose to cast their vote.
> 
> Some people do base their vote on superficial things, looks for example (JT anyone), but hopefully they are in the minority.


Absolutely. I generally, however, agree with the Conservative party only about 33% of the time. Liberals less than 10%. NDP 1%. Greens, once every five years.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Absolutely. I generally, however, agree with the Conservative party only about 33% of the time. Liberals less than 10%. NDP 1%. Greens, once every five years.


Just to add, of course there is "strategic voting" but then that is a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils and not actual support.

Being that I live in Quebec, regrettably I have had to vote strategically far too often for my liking.


----------



## BigDL

.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I must say I'm stumped by Harper govt's tolerance for this kind of bureaucracy - 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vet...s-every-3-years-instead-of-annually-1.2976893


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Sunny and cold -9 (wind chill -17) along the riverbank.


Interesting take on politics indeed, well done!


----------



## Macfury

He _reduced_ the bureaucratic requirement put in place by the Liberals.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I must say I'm stumped by Harper govt's tolerance for this kind of bureaucracy -
> 
> Veterans will need to verify lost limbs every 3 years, instead of annually - Politics - CBC News


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I must say I'm stumped by Harper govt's tolerance for this kind of bureaucracy -
> 
> Veterans will need to verify lost limbs every 3 years, instead of annually - Politics - CBC News


This is just plain stupidity on the part of any stripe of government. A loss of limb needs to be verified once and once only. Are they so misinformed they think limbs magically grow back in three years? Unbelievable stupidity.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> This is just plain stupidity on the part of any stripe of government. A loss of limb needs to be verified once and once only. Are they so misinformed they think limbs magically grow back in three years? Unbelievable stupidity.


Sadly it would appear they do believe.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Laureen with head covered. Hypocrites.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> This is just plain stupidity on the part of any stripe of government. A loss of limb needs to be verified once and once only. Are they so misinformed they think limbs magically grow back in three years? Unbelievable stupidity.


It's not intended to catch limbs growing back. It's intended to ensure that the original file on the person was correct.


----------



## Macfury

Don't be an idiot, Jimbo. Nobody said you couldn't wear a hat at some point in your life.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Laureen with head covered. Hypocrites.


----------



## Aurora

As a matter of fact, although it has changed now, it used to be mandatory for women to cover their heads in church so what's the big deal?


----------



## Macfury

Aurora said:


> As a matter of fact, although it has changed now, it used to be mandatory for women to cover their heads in church so what's the big deal?


Jimbo is trying to equate voluntarily wearing a covering on one's head with permanently covering one's face for driver's license photos and court appearances.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey idiot:


----------



## Macfury

You shouldn't be fearful of either (it's funny how liberals are always frightened of something). However, the face covering should be removed for purposes of legal identification.


----------



## SINC

The only federal politician who needs that bag is JT. Gaffe after gaffe, but who's counting? Far too many to bother.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Jimbo is trying to equate voluntarily wearing a covering on one's head with permanently covering one's face for driver's license photos and court appearances.


I thought we were talking about hijabs, which do not cover the face.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I thought we were talking about hijabs, which do not cover the face.


Jimbo put up an illustration showing a woman with her face covered.


----------



## FeXL

"Suddenly"? Not for many of us...

Why Justin Trudeau is suddenly the underdog



> But if that five-month trend of declining belief in Trudeau’s inevitability continues, interesting things could happen. More of the 2011 Conservative vote, which has been wandering, could return home. More voters who were astonished to vote NDP in 2011 might astonish themselves again by preparing to repeat the gesture. *Much will depend on what the leaders do and say.*


M'bold.

He is _so_ screwed.


----------



## FeXL

QED...

LSVCC Tax Credit is Bad Tax Policy



> Justin Trudeau today unveiled his party’s economic platform going into the 2015 federal election. There are lots of interesting pieces in the platform, but one particularly has caught the eye of many economists. Trudeau is going to bring back the Labour Sponsored Venture Capital (LSVCC) tax credit. *That is bad tax policy and means the Liberals now join my wall of Stupid Tax Policy Initiatives.*


M'bold.

Yep...


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Don't be an idiot, Jimbo. Nobody said you couldn't wear a hat at some point in your life.


In fact the government was critical of the Quebec Court judge.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I thought we were talking about hijabs, which do not cover the face.


A court judge in Quebec, try to follow along, it would be helpful.

Federally for taking an oath of citizenship a woman can wear a hijab so long as she doesn't cover her face, which can be done when wearing a hijab. There is enough cloth that they can choose to cover their face when they feel like it. All that being said, currently while taking the oath of citizenship in Canada you need to show your face and that is the way it should be IMO.

What the hell exactly is wrong with that?

Our country, our rules and laws. Do you agree to abide by our rules and laws or nor? If not then emigrate to some other country.

The ruling by the Federal Court should be shot down, I can't even imagine their logic... it seems there is a bit of judicial activism at play here in this ruling as IMO it makes no sense at all. It ain't rocket science.

*For god's sake, the next thing you know, you will be able to get a passport photo taken while your face is covered and it will be legit. It is just plain stupid!!!* 

No wonder JT supports the idea of taking an oath of citizenship while ones face is covered, fits right in with his stupidity wheel house. 

JT should go back to teaching children because that is better suited to his intellectual capabilities.

But then again do you really want JT teaching your children? I certainly would not want him teaching mine.


----------



## Macfury

It still strikes me as tremendously odd that the Liberals are so supportive of some sort of monarchy by selecting a family member of previous Prime Minister to run. I suppose with so little talent on board, they had to rely on name recognition.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It still strikes me as tremendously odd that the Liberals are so supportive of some sort of monarchy by selecting a family member of previous Prime Minister to run. *I suppose with so little talent on board, they had to rely on name recognition.*


Not to mention he is a "pretty boy" and that can be helpful when it comes to getting the vote of the policy and politically ignorant/challenged. Imagine if JT looked like Bill Gates for example, would he still have become the leader of Libs if everything else about him were the same? IMO no he would not have. Appearance often trumps substance for many. Sad but true and seemingly more important to Liberals that any other Party in Canada, that is just one example of how desperate, intellectually deficient and challenged the Libs have become.

I can't wait for the Leaders Election Debates. It should be good fun watching Stephen Harper and Tom Mulcair beating down JT. 

Something like this:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






More detail's here:

Ronda Rousey creates history by beating Cat Zingano after 14 SECONDS at UFC 184 to retain bantamweight title

I think it is the best/most exciting 14 seconds in sports I have seen in a long time.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Getting ready - http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/m...ormer-pmo-insiders-conservative-mps-1.2978745

Good to go.


----------



## Macfury

This will be funny. Duffy has repeatedly made a fool of himself.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Getting ready - http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/m...ormer-pmo-insiders-conservative-mps-1.2978745
> 
> Good to go.


----------



## eMacMan

Wow all I suggested was that I missed the connection between the discussion on hijabs, which do not cover the face, and a post which referred to covering the face. MacFury, in a courteous manner, had already explained things quite adequately. Even so that post somehow inspired this rather snarky attack. 



screature said:


> A court judge in Quebec, try to follow along, it would be helpful.
> 
> Federally for taking an oath of citizenship a woman can wear a hijab so long as she doesn't cover her face, which can be done when wearing a hijab. There is enough cloth that they can choose to cover their face when they feel like it. All that being said, currently while taking the oath of citizenship in Canada you need to show your face and that is the way it should be IMO.
> 
> What the hell exactly is wrong with that?
> 
> Our country, our rules and laws. Do you agree to abide by our rules and laws or nor? If not then emigrate to some other country.
> 
> The ruling by the Federal Court should be shot down, I can't even imagine their logic... it seems there is a bit of judicial activism at play here in this ruling as IMO it makes no sense at all. It ain't rocket science.
> 
> *For god's sake, the next thing you know, you will be able to get a passport photo taken while your face is covered and it will be legit. It is just plain stupid!!!*
> 
> No wonder JT supports the idea of taking an oath of citizenship while ones face is covered, fits right in with his stupidity wheel house.
> 
> JT should go back to teaching children because that is better suited to his intellectual capabilities.
> 
> But then again do you really want JT teaching your children? I certainly would not want him teaching mine.


Don't get me wrong. I am incredibly flattered that a Dopple-ünter-conmeißter would waste precious slime attacking me over such a trivial post. 

Of course such bottom of the barrel trickery does nothing at all to promote the ConMeißter cause. It just shows that they have so little to offer that they have to attack anyone who is not completely passed out. 

Still that seems to be the way you roll, so knock your self out.

BTW tacking in the attack on the lesser Trudeau shows a similar lack of class. I am absolutely sure he is quite capable of opening his own mouth and exchanging feet, on this or any other topic.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yep. No respect from this govt. Turf'em in '15!

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10855667


----------



## Macfury

Read this stuff before you post it. The explanation is in the text of the article. Turf yourself in '15.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. No respect from this govt. Turf'em in '15!
> 
> Jason Kenney's tweet confirming soldier's death sparked anger, frustration


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Turf'em in '15!


Bring it!


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Wow all I suggested was that I missed the connection between the discussion on *hijabs, which do not cover the face*, and a post which referred to covering the face. MacFury, in a courteous manner, had already explained things quite adequately. Even so that post somehow inspired this rather snarky attack.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I am incredibly flattered that a Dopple-ünter-conmeißter would waste precious slime attacking me over such a trivial post.
> 
> Of course such bottom of the barrel trickery does nothing at all to promote the ConMeißter cause. It just shows that they have so little to offer that they have to attack anyone who is not completely passed out.
> 
> Still that seems to be the way you roll, so knock your self out.
> 
> BTW tacking in the attack on the lesser Trudeau shows a similar lack of class. I am absolutely sure he is quite capable of opening his own mouth and exchanging feet, on this or any other topic.


As I said before your little rant which came about because you clearly did not understand my post , Hijab's *CAN *be used to cover the face, look it up. In the case in Quebec the woman's face wasn't covered and that is why the Quebec judge was out of line.

Don't know what the hell you are talking about regarding the personal attack as there was none. "Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland" it seems.

PAUL SIMON LYRICS



> *"Have A Good Time"*
> 
> ...*Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland
> But I think it's all overdone
> Exaggerating this and exaggerating that
> They don't have no fun...
> *


As far as class goes, wow, your post was quite full of it now wasn't it?!

As for JT. He deserves the criticism. 

Here is the "class" that jT shows in the House.

Justin Trudeau calls Peter Kent 'piece of ****' in House of Commons

So if you want to talk about personal insults and lack of class just look to the heir apparent for that. He is his father's son in that regard, he is a buffoon like his father.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Bring it!


Yes, bring it indeed!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Read this stuff before you post it. The explanation is in the text of the article. *Turf yourself in '15.*


How about *right* now? It is 2015 after-all, isn't it?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ali Bomaye - http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> How about *right* now? It is 2015 after-all, isn't it?


Regarding Duffy: Nigel Wright was not charged with bribery because it couldn't stick. I doubt Duffy can be successfully charged with accepting a bribe when no bribe was offered--that is unless he just wants to go in and say he believed he was accepting a bribe, and be convicted on his own intention. Anyone expecting a massive exposé in the courts will be severely disappointed. Duffy will clearly--and rightly--claim that some of the senate rules are vague and be cleared of some of the supposed wrongdoing, but it is unlikely he will be cleared of everything.


----------



## CubaMark

_Food for thought...._

*If a Bible's Allowed in a Courtroom, Why Isn't a Hijab?*



> Judge Eliano Marengo has declared her Quebec courtroom "a secular place and a secular space", and has denied Rania El-Alloul a hearing because she wears a hijab. The judge proclaimed that there are no religious symbols in her courtroom.





> The method judges most commonly rely upon to compel a witness to tell the truth is by swearing an oath "while such person holds in his or her hand a copy of the Old or New Testament without requiring him or her to kiss the same". While this provision in Ontario's Evidence Act reflects the religion of Jews and Christians, other religious texts, such as the Koran, can also be used. The oath usually ends with the words "So help me God".





> It is impossible for a judge who daily has witnesses place their hand on a Bible and swear to tell the truth to claim there are no religious symbols in her courtroom. So did the fact that Rania El-Alloul's attire was Islamic weigh more heavily on the judge's decision than the fact that she wore a religious symbol?


(HuffPo)


----------



## Macfury

I don't think most people support that judge, CM, even those who don't agree with face covering.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Regarding Duffy: Nigel Wright was not charged with bribery because it couldn't stick. I doubt Duffy can be successfully charged with accepting a bribe when no bribe was offered--that is unless he just wants to go in and say he believed he was accepting a bribe, and be convicted on his own intention. Anyone expecting a massive exposé in the courts will be severely disappointed. Duffy will clearly--and rightly--claim that some of the senate rules are vague and be cleared of some of the supposed wrongdoing, but it is unlikely he will be cleared of everything.


At this point we have no idea with regard to the crown's (police's) decision(s) not to charge Mr. Wright.

In any criminal case, sometimes a perpetrator is given leniency in exchange for co-operation/testimony. Sometimes charging or not charging an individual is based on, a poor chance of conviction of one, versus to improve the probability of conviction of another.

Remember, not guilty, is not tantamount to being innocent.

What exactly are the charges against Mr. Duffy, bribery, fraud, misappropriation, breach of trust? What are the exact charges anyone know?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I don't think most people support that judge, CM, even those who don't agree with face covering.


One would hope. Just providing an update. Not here to make any waves... (what's the emoticon for walking on eggshells?)


----------



## SINC

I sure do not agree with that judge. It was a stupid move since no face was covered.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> At this point we have no idea with regard to the crown's (police's) decision(s) not to charge Mr. Wright.
> 
> In any criminal case, sometimes a perpetrator is given leniency in exchange for co-operation/testimony. Sometimes charging or not charging an individual is based on, a poor chance of conviction of one, versus to improve the probability of conviction of another.
> 
> Remember, not guilty, is not tantamount to being innocent.


The RCMP simply stated: 


> "the evidence gathered does not support criminal charges against Mr. Wright."





BigDL said:


> What exactly are the charges against Mr. Duffy, bribery, fraud, misappropriation, breach of trust? What are the exact charges anyone know?


From newspaper accounts:


> * One count each of fraud and breach of trust related to his residency expenses.
> * Nine counts of fraud and nine counts of breach of trust for expenses unrelated to Senate business.
> * Four counts of fraud and four counts of breach of trust related to the awarding of consulting contracts.
> * One count each of bribery, frauds on the government and breach of trust related to the $90,000 payment Duffy received from Wright.


----------



## SINC

Not guilty in a court of law is exactly that and no more. End of story. Anything 'added' is simply opinion by the uniformed.


----------



## FeXL

Like leader, like staffer...

Liberals apologize for mixing up living and dead Russian politicians



> The federal Liberal Party has apologized for confusing a slain Russian politician with one who is very much alive.
> 
> The mix-up came earlier this week when the Liberals mistook former Russian deputy prime minister Boris Nemtsov for ex-PM Mikhail Kasyanov in a statement regarding Nemtsov's death.


Further, from the comments section of a related article:



> Can't wait until Justin starts handling our foreign affairs after the next election.
> 
> What a Buffoon......


Yep.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I was in Edmonton this week and didn't visit the west Edmonton mall because of the terrorist threat. 

I feel so much safer.


----------



## Macfury

Thankfully, all terrorist activity was foiled! We don't measure success according to how frightened you feel.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I was in Edmonton this week and didn't visit the west Edmonton mall because of the terrorist threat.
> 
> I feel so much safer.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Thankfully, all terrorist activity was foiled! We don't measure success according to how frightened you feel.


For Conservatives isn't fear quantified directly proportional to the amount of dollars donated by the base?


----------



## Macfury

In a way. I'm never afraid, but will consider donating when the platform is radical enough to frighten the left.



BigDL said:


> For Conservatives isn't fear quantified directly proportional to the amount of dollars donated by the base?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Weeee! Video of crackhead mentally deranged "terrorist" gets released today. Unstable had a direct line to Allah.


----------



## Macfury

You liberals express such disrespect for the disadvantaged. This is a victim of substance abuse.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Weeee! Video of crackhead mentally deranged "terrorist" gets released today. Unstable had a direct line to Allah.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> You liberals express such disrespect for the disadvantaged. This is a victim of substance abuse.



Yes sounds like it. Sounds like someone who needed a helping hand.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes sounds like it.


...who would have killed you in five seconds if he got a bead on you.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So 18 seconds missing from the vid. Had to turn it off. Quite the show.

Paulson cuts an impressive figure. Kudos for him not resorting to the coverup look - no toupee to here.


----------



## Macfury

Why are you even watching that? It might make you scared to shop.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I was in Edmonton this week and didn't visit the west Edmonton mall because of the terrorist threat.


Jimbo! You didn't call? :-(


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Jimbo! You didn't call? :-(


Maybe he thought you were calling on someone in Toronto that day.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Maybe he thought you were calling on someone in Toronto that day.


beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

2 thieves together -


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *So 18 seconds missing from the vid. Had to turn it off. Quite the show.*
> 
> Paulson cuts an impressive figure. *Kudos for him not resorting to the coverup look - no toupee to here.*


Too bad for you that you continue to make posts based on only the headlines you read:

Michael Zehaf-Bibeau warns in video: 'You gotta be careful' 



> ..."Canada's officially become *one of our* enemies by fighting and bombing us and creating a lot of terror in our countries and killing us and killing our innocents. So, just aiming to hit some soldiers just to show that you're not even safe in your own land, and you gotta be careful.​"
> 
> Zehaf-Bibeau refers to himself as part of the Mujahideen, the army of holy warriors engaged in jihad​.
> 
> Paulson said the RCMP edited 18 seconds out of the video for "sound operational" reasons. Thirteen seconds were cut from the beginning and five seconds from the end.
> 
> Paulson said the national police force continues to investigate whether anyone aided Zehaf-Bibeau in the attack.
> 
> Speaking to reporters following the meeting, Paulson said he believes someone else was involved.
> 
> "I put the caveat that it is an ongoing investigation. And I wouldn't characterize it as a network, as it's commonly understood, *but I am persuaded that he was influenced by other individuals towards these crimes. And so in that sense I'm of the view that there are other individuals involved.*​"...
> 
> "It's not relevant to us, or our investigation, what kind of terrorist Zehaf-Bibeau was, or if he was a particularly intelligent, sophisticated, influential or personally disciplined terrorist," Paulson said.
> 
> "To us, it all turns on the evidence we collect which we compare against the statute. What was he doing and why was he doing it?"...
> 
> Paulson said a post-mortem test for drugs and alcohol on Zehaf-Bibeau was negative and they've found no evidence he used drugs or alcohol in the days leading up to the attack.


So much for the leftist view that he was just some drug addled misfit and not a terrorist.

He clearly knew what he was doing and for specific reasons that were fueled by his and other jihadists hatred of the West and our way of life.

What a lame/loser, not to mention incoherent, comment. Do you even proof read/edit what you post? it appears not.



> Kudos for him not resorting to the coverup look - *no toupee to here.*


But you are original (all by yourself out in *left* field) in that you seem to think that the Prime Minister's full head of grey hair is a toupee. One would think if he was bald or balding he could do a whole helluva a lot better than all that silver/grey hair as a toupee.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> But you are original (all by yourself out in *left* field) in that you seem to think that the Prime Minister's full head of grey hair is a toupee. One would think if he was bald or balding he could do a whole helluva a lot better than all that silver/grey hair as a toupee.


Jimbo promised he would stop with the hairpiece comments. If he keeps it up, I will post a photo of his hairline next to that of Stephen Harper.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Jimbo promised he would stop with the hairpiece comments. If he keeps it up, I will post a photo of his hairline next to that of Stephen Harper.


I saw what you posted before you decided to edit your post.

The only difference that I could see (aside from the hair colour) is that jimbo has a decidedly larger forehead and less hair than the PM.

So is he saying because the PM has more hair than him at the same/similar age it must mean the PM is wearing a toupee?


----------



## screature

Canadian oil extraction is ‘extraordinarily dirty’ process, Obama says

Completely a pre-election speech speaking to his/successor's base. One could only imagine how bad it would have been had he actually been running for re-election!

I used to have a shred of hope for Obama, that he could have actually made some constructive change for the American people, but sadly that has not come to be.

I also see no leader among the GOP that I would vote for either in the US. US voters seem to be stuck in a similar quagmire that we are in here in Canada, despite our constitutional and political differences.

Once again I will be voting for the lesser of evils. Sadly, I suspect many voters in the US will feel that they are in the same position when it comes time for them to cast their vote.


----------



## Macfury

Rand Paul or Scott Walker in that order. Never had a hope for Obama and he hasn't disappointed me.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Rand Paul or Scott Walker in that order. Never had a hope for Obama and he hasn't disappointed me.


Well you know US politics better by a country mile than I do MF... 

But in the upcoming election in the US so far, from my inexperience, I have no clue if I were an American who I would be voting for as President. That is probably because we have no knowledge yet as to who are the actual Presidential candidates.

In Canada we already know who wants to be PM. Our electoral systems are so different there is really not much comparison. I should not have tried to make one.


----------



## Macfury

The major difference is that we know with some certainty that the party leaders in power a year or less before the election are _very likely _to be on the ballot. In the US, we know only with certainty that ONE of the people duking it out at the Iowa caucus in January will be on the ballot running as president for each party in November.

The US system also has no tolerance for a loser. The winner becomes president and the loser reverts to their previous status. In Canada, JT will still be the leader of the Liberals after losing in the next election.




screature said:


> But in the upcoming election in the US so far, from my inexperience, I have no clue if I were an American who I would be voting for as President. That is probably because we have no knowledge yet as to who are the actual Presidential candidates.
> 
> In Canada we already know who wants to be PM. Our electoral systems are so different there is really not much comparison.


----------



## SINC

#No2Trudeau: Cross-country pro-life campaign targets Justin's "extreme" abortion stance - The Rebel


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Rand Paul or Scott Walker in that order. Never had a hope for Obama and he hasn't disappointed me.


MF, I think Obama is suffering from optics rather than result. While you may disagree with his appraoch, he does have an inventory of achievements. I think the build up of expectation and what could be delivered has washed over him .... But he has accomplished much under the legislative environment he inherited. Not saying he is great, not saying he is bad .... History will tell, not the current press.


----------



## Macfury

The optics are correct. I haven't seen a single initiative or piece of legislation passed by Obama that have not worsened the position of the US, either economically or in its standing in the world. He's a little man in a big job. If I were Jimmy Carter, I would be saying prayers of thanks that Obama came along and took away the stigma of being the worst president of the past 50 years.



Rps said:


> MF, I think Obama is suffering from optics rather than result. While you may disagree with his appraoch, he does have an inventory of achievements. I think the build up of expectation and what could be delivered has washed over him .... But he has accomplished much under the legislative environment he inherited. Not saying he is great, not saying he is bad .... History will tell, not the current press.


----------



## Rps

How good a Prez he is remains to be seen. For me the worst Pres in the last 50 or so is a tie between Kennedy, Nixon ( Ford doesn't count ) and George W. The W was an effective leader but not a good President IMO.


----------



## Macfury

Barack O. is rock bottom. You may be in doubt, but nothing remains to be seen for me. I see him as more of a Quisling than a president. I have rarely seen someone spring to action so delightedly only on issues that will harm the country internationally, or in favour of enriching the power and influence of "the ruling class."



Rps said:


> How good a Prez he is remains to be seen. For me the worst Pres in the last 50 or so is a tie between Kennedy, Nixon ( Ford doesn't count ) and George W. The W was an effective leader but not a good President IMO.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Barack O. is rock bottom. You may be in doubt, but nothing remains to be seen for me. I see him as more of a Quisling than a president. I have rarely seen someone spring to action so delightedly only on issues that will harm the country internationally, or in favour of enriching the power and influence of "the ruling class."


Ahhhhhhh...... A Gramsci follower......good for you:love2:


----------



## SINC

Conservative environmentalism? It's real -- and in Canada, it gets results - The Rebel


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Ahhhhhhh...... A Gramsci follower......good for you:love2:


The problem with the US is the steady growth of central power in Washington, something accelerated by B.O. The federal government shouldn't even be powerful enough to create any of the conditions Gramsci railed against. Sadly, the brand of Marxism he promoted would have be like nose candy to Barack Obama.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *The major difference is that we know with some certainty that the party leaders in power a year or less before the election are very likely to be on the ballot.* In the US, we know only with certainty that ONE of the people duking it out at the Iowa caucus in January will be on the ballot running as president for each party in November.
> 
> *The US system also has no tolerance for a loser*. The winner becomes president and the loser reverts to their previous status. In Canada, JT will still be the leader of the Liberals after losing in the next election.


I do believe I said that. But the timeline is definitively less than a year. 

Unless one of the leaders of their respective Party dies an untimely death we know definitively who will be on the ballot in 2015.

As for your comment regarding the US and Iowa I really don't know what you are talking about so I cannot comment but I really don't see its significance to The Canadian Political Thread.

That is also what I was talking about when I said out two electoral systems are very different.

If JT wins his seat *he* is victorious, whether or not his party forms the Government.

If the Libs do not form Government under JT at that point *it will be up to his Party* to decided whether or not he stays on as the Leader. But if he won his seat he is still an MP... Just like Stéphane Dion is now.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, this is true.And immediately following the election, JT will still be the leader of his party until someone moves to remove him as leader of his party. I like that continuity, because all of the issues going into the election remain issues coming out of it and the opposition leader can continue to harangue the PM.



screature said:


> I do believe I said that. But the timeline is definitively less than a year.
> 
> Unless one of the leaders of their respective Party dies an untimely death we know definitively who will be on the ballot in 2015.
> 
> As for your comment regarding the US and Iowa I really don't know what you are talking about so I cannot comment but I really don't see its significance to The Canadian Political Thread.
> 
> That is also what I was talking about when I said out two electoral systems are very different.
> 
> If JT wins his seat *he* is victorious, whether or not his party forms the Government.
> 
> If the Libs do not form Government under JT at that point *it will be up to his Party* to decided whether or not he stays on as the Leader. But if he won his seat he is still an MP... Just like Stéphane Dion is now.


----------



## SINC

The longer this campaign drags out the better. Kind of like giving JT more rope to hang himself and Mulcair is unelectable outside QC.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The longer this campaign drags out the better. Kind of like giving JT more rope to hang himself and Mulcair is unelectable outside QC.


As long as he follows jack Layton's strategy of catering to the separatists, he can woo votes away from the Bloc.


----------



## Rps

Screature I agree. We Canadians think we elect our leaders but we don't. The U.S. Elects a President and their Government, we just elect a Parliament which , as you so correctly point out, is not the same thing.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> The longer this campaign drags out the better. Kind of like giving JT more rope to hang himself and Mulcair is unelectable outside QC.


I am not so sure about JT or Mulcair. I think with the strife in the world we as a society are becoming more conservative. Politically I think we are back in time circa 1910. Alliances are more important than ever and we rely on conservative trappings. So the question is, can JT and Mulcair offer an " acceptable conservative view" to match Harper's. That is the question. If you watch both opposition parties, you can see the shift coming out. While I am not inclined to vote for the Conservatives due to their foreign policies, I am most certainly torn about voting for the Libs or NDP. I think this time it will be about who is the safest vote .... Sadly, I am leaning towards the Greens.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> ...I am most certainly torn about voting for the Libs or NDP. I think this time it will be about who is the safest vote .... Sadly, I am leaning towards the Greens.


I have met so many card-carrying Liberals lately who say they can't bring themselves to vote for JT. Never seen anything like it.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I have met so many card-carrying Liberals lately who say they can't bring themselves to vote for JT. Never seen anything like it.


I really think it's the Reverse Devil You Know Complex. I am a Liberal and I can not bring myself to vote for the party.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature I agree. We Canadians think we elect our leaders but we don't. The U.S. Elects a President and their Government, we just elect a Parliament which , as you so correctly point out, is not the same thing.


Thanks Rps. One of the many flaws with our electoral system IMO.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I am not so sure about JT or Mulcair. I think with the strife in the world we as a society are becoming more conservative. Politically I think we are back in time circa 1910. Alliances are more important than ever and we rely on conservative trappings. So the question is, can JT and Mulcair offer an " acceptable conservative view" to match Harper's. That is the question. If you watch both opposition parties, you can see the shift coming out. While I am not inclined to vote for the Conservatives due to their foreign policies, I am most certainly torn about voting for the Libs or NDP. I think this time it will be about who is the safest vote .... Sadly, I am leaning towards the Greens.





Rps said:


> I am not so sure about JT or Mulcair. I think with the strife in the world we as a society are becoming more conservative. Politically I think we are back in time circa 1910. Alliances are more important than ever and we rely on conservative trappings.


I am sure that I do not agree on the whole with the policies of the Libs or the NDP. Despite the failings of the CPC, on the whole, their policies do speak more to my concerns, proclivities and world view.

I am not sure what you mean by the 1910 reference. 

Yes politically the world is in general more united than it was in 1910 in terms of alliances, and world view but in 1910 that unity was largely based on monarchies/oligarchies not democracies. So the world of today is not really all that comparable to the world of 1910 IMO.

Also not sure what you meant meant by "conservative trappings". Conservatism has changed a whole lot since 1910 and what tenets are now acceptable under the various flavours of conservatism. There is no one modality of conservatism, it varies, even among members of the same political party in any given country.



> While I am not inclined to vote for the Conservatives due to their foreign policies...


Different strokes... their foreign policies are one of the reasons why I support them. There are of course exceptions, but I do appreciate their strong principled (right or wrong, history will decide that) stand on many issues that are urgent and pressing rather than just sitting back and let the rest of the Western world take the lead and we just passively observe as if we were Switzerland.


----------



## Rps

Screature, in our world the oligarchies I think are more clearly defined .... In 1910 the monarchies and governments of the world were in the process of grabbing the last pieces of real estate they could get, today we are under economic imperialism, and the concerns of the oligarchs drive much of the geopolitical iniatives. As for conservative trappings, most people who call themselves conservatives value the status quo, have a reliance on their governments and have a right is might mind set. They value their culture and, to a certain extent, believe others want their values. For the most part, many countries have entered into war because their governments "stand for what's right" . The Middle East , I think, has the potential to quickly evolve into a world war issue .... We are sitting on the edge of 1910 and are moving to 1914.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> As for conservative trappings, most people who call themselves conservatives value the status quo, have a reliance on their governments and have a right is might mind set. They value their culture and, to a certain extent, believe others want their values. .


rps, this is a caricature of conservatism.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> rps, this is a caricature of conservatism.


Yes I know but it is also a brief summary of conservative trappings ... No one can truly define anyone, this I realise.


----------



## Macfury

Conservatives do not value change for the sake of change, they rely _less _on their government than do any other major political force, they are willing to stand up for what is right. Who doesn't value their own culture? However, I see no difference between any political forces in attempting to convince others that their cultural values are best.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

I believe the only true test of this is the smell test--when left-libs begin filling their pants about it. Nobody else is in fear.



CubaMark said:


>


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wallin - http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10877597

Question - didn't Steve check Pammy's expenses personally? 

Answer - Yes he did. Stated as much in the house. 

Give em da boot in 2015.


----------



## Macfury

Read your link next time, Jimbo. Will make you look like less of a partisan drooler.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wallin - Harper distances Tories from Pamela Wallin
> 
> Question - didn't Steve check Pammy's expenses personally?
> 
> Answer - Yes he did. Stated as much in the house.
> 
> Give em da boot in 2015.


----------



## Macfury

Send that ridiculous chart to JT so he can hold a news conference with it!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 54754


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

You should be ashamed of yourself for making fun of the Queen after she greeted you so graciously, Jimbo.


----------



## FeXL

Justin, Justin, Justin...

Trudeau's repugnant speech and unions vs the Koch brothers



> Justin Trudeau puts his foot in his mouth again by comparing appealing the niqab ruling to sending Jews back to Nazi Germany.


Oh, Shiny Pony!



> "So we should all shudder to hear the same rhetoric that led to a 'none is too many' immigration policy toward Jews in the '30s and '40s being used today, to raise fears against Muslims today,"


Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it...

Great comments, especially the notes about his father's position during WW II (from the first link).


----------



## FeXL

I guess local qualifies as Canadian. From Taber, a small community about 30 minutes east of Lethbridge. Home of Taber corn. And, apparently, more than a few idiots on town council...

Town of Taber, Alta., bans swearing, spitting, yelling ...



> Call it a bunch of B.S. if you like ─ just be prepared to pay a $150 fine for using foul language in public.
> 
> Swearing is just one of the sins now outlawed in the southern Alberta town of Taber, along with yelling, spitting, gathering in groups larger than three, making too much noise inside a bar, and being outside after 11 p.m., if you're under the age of 18.


Local reaction?



> The list goes on, all of it contained in a puritan bylaw intended to target bad behaviour ─ but instead, the rigid rulebook has made Taber the target of wide-spread ridicule, with *one group of Lethbridge, Alta., lawyers already planning to battle the town in court, pro-bono.*


M'bold.



> But in drafting their version of the rules, Taber's council managed to turn the precision scalpel required in lawmaking into a clumsy chainsaw, where police can now issue fines and force people off the street for simply looking like they might cause a problem.


Should be interesting the next time I take the Hawg out there...


----------



## bse5150

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 54762


That's hilarious!!! Wish I was that good with Photoshop.


----------



## Macfury

bse5150 said:


> That's hilarious!!! Wish I was that good with Photoshop.


Putting some Xs on an image? I could teach you that one pretty quick.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, in our world the oligarchies I think are more clearly defined .... In 1910 the monarchies and governments of the world were in the process of grabbing the last pieces of real estate they could get, today we are under economic imperialism, and the concerns of the oligarchs drive much of the geopolitical iniatives. As for conservative trappings, most people who call themselves conservatives value the status quo, have a reliance on their governments and have a right is might mind set. They value their culture and, to a certain extent, believe others want their values. For the most part, many countries have entered into war because their governments "stand for what's right" . The Middle East , I think, has the potential to quickly evolve into a world war issue .... We are sitting on the edge of 1910 and are moving to 1914.





Rps said:


> Screature, in our world the oligarchies I think are more clearly defined .... *In 1910 the monarchies and governments of the world were in the process of grabbing the last pieces of real estate they could get.*..


I disagree, the geopolitical borders of the world are still in constant flux as they always have been and always will be so long as human beings are involved. There is still plenty of land to grab. It just depends on how far you are willing to go to "grab" that land. ISIS/ISIL and Russia in the Ukraine come immediately to mind, just a couple of examples in the media these days.



> As for conservative trappings, most people who call themselves conservatives value the status quo, have a reliance on their governments.


They do not if the status quo is leftist. Then they are called reactionaries and can be and have been, summarily executed for their beliefs/point of view. Which is exactly what is going on right now with ISIS/ISIL... People who choose to resist them are, beheaded, maimed, tortured, raped, thrown off of the tops of buildings, wipe out/destroy thousands of years of history etc., if it does not fit within their rigid, fundamentalist views.

I think the situation now is in some ways like Nazi's and Germany. Not all German's were Nazi's. Not all Muslims are jihadists, but there are jihadists among Muslims/Islam and I have no hesitations publicly calling them out when they publicly call for jihad against the West and other Muslims/Islamist who disagree with them.

Sorry but that last bit of your post made me laugh a little bit seeing as it is leftists who want to promote governments as the ones who should look after them.



> The Middle East , I think, has the potential to quickly evolve into a world war issue .... We are sitting on the edge of 1910 and are moving to 1914.


I disagree, the extremist militants of Islam are not there yet in terms of power, that is why the West continually fight against Iran getting the "bomb".

It may one day come but IMO opinion we are not there yet and we should do everything in our power to prevent it from happening.

To me the Russian incursion into Ukraine posses a more immediate and potential threat to bring about WWIII.


----------



## bse5150

Macfury said:


> Putting some Xs on an image? I could teach you that one pretty quick.


Xs? No. I mean being able to put a different face on a head. Like the image of Stephen Harper's face on the Queens head. That's a talent I wish I had.


----------



## Macfury

bse5150 said:


> Xs? No. I mean being able to put a different face on a head. Like the image of Stephen Harper's face on the Queens head. That's a talent I wish I had.


It's not that hard. You just need to start with a head and body oriented in the same direction. If someone spent more than 10 minutes on that one, it was too long.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This coming from the Steve Harper govt. The same bunch who thought the census infringed on privacy. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/b...blocked-from-committee-witness-list-1.2991265

Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## Macfury

They've already heard from Therrien. Re-elect Steve in 2015 and 2019!




skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This coming from the Steve Harper govt. The same bunch who thought the census infringed on privacy.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/b...blocked-from-committee-witness-list-1.2991265
> 
> Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Re-elect Steve in 2015 and 2019!


Bring it!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's not that hard. You just need to start with a head and body oriented in the same direction. If someone spent more than 10 minutes on that one, it was too long.


Agreed. With a little bit of fooling around with any of the plethora of photo editing software available these days it is really easy to do that kind of photo editing... It is the stuff that memes are dependent on.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> This coming from the Steve Harper govt. The same bunch who thought the census infringed on privacy.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/b...blocked-from-committee-witness-list-1.2991265
> 
> Heave Steve in 2015.


Maybe if he hadn't opened his big fat yap criticizing Bill C-51 before he was offered an invitation he could have been a witness at Committee. But no he didn't have the good judgement to do what was right and proper for a civil servant. Instead he chose to go the media route first for his own personal glorification and edification. 

So there is no reason for the Government to hear his point of view as he has already expressed it publicly. Consequently, If he was a witness at Committee there would be nothing new to be learned from his testimony and a complete waste of the Committee's time, which is limited. It is far better that someone else who hasn't already expressed their opinion publicly be heard. 

It ain't rocket science, but it still amazes me that such smart people can be so stupid and then try to blame the results of their stupidity on others.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> They've already heard from Therrien. Re-elect Steve in 2015 and 2019!


By 2019 I would hope that someone else would be at the helm of the CPC for many reasons.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> By 2019 I would hope that someone else would be at the helm of the CPC for many reasons.


It would be nice to see someone to the right of Steven Harper winning.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It would be nice to see someone to the right of Steven Harper winning.


Well you know I am a "red" Tory a la the PCP of old, so no I don't agree with you on that front.

The main thing for me is that if Harper wins the next election, majority or otherwise, in 2019 I would hope for the PMO to be run by different people of different strokes and that wont happen under Harper.

One thing that I really object to is how much power the PMO has under Harper. IMO it is anti-democratic.


----------



## SINC

Why indeed?

#DressCodePM: Why do feminists like Margaret Atwood defend the "anti-feminist" niqab?


----------



## Macfury

As the article says, SINC, it's largely Harper Derangement Syndrome--of the same type suffered by Jimbo,


----------



## SINC

Ah, that explains it.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> It would be nice to see someone to the right of Steven Harper winning.


I couldn't agree more. If there's one thing that's disappointed me about Harper, it's that he has not governed in an even remotely similar manner to that which he is constantly accused of doing. I wish he were actually "far-right". I wish he was actually an authoritarian.


----------



## SINC

Now here is an interesting twist and new strategy:

Laurie Blakeman to run under banner of Liberals, Greens and Alberta Party


----------



## Macfury

Much better. You only have to flush once to get three turds out of the bowl.

If these parties had much in common they would have merged long ago. I'll bet you the Alberta Liberals won't allow many Greens or AP candidates to run in their stead.



SINC said:


> Now here is an interesting twist and new strategy:
> 
> Laurie Blakeman to run under banner of Liberals, Greens and Alberta Party


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Protect us Stevie. 

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=10887293

Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another one for the support the troops file -

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...ing-to-recover-88000-he-lost-in-military-move

Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## Macfury

Collecting articles form a news aggregator won't get rid of the Prime Minister!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You're right. Collecting articles forms a news aggregator. 

And yes Canadians will vote to heave Steve.


----------



## Macfury

When did he lose you, Jimbo?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You're right. Collecting articles forms a news aggregator.
> 
> And yes Canadians will vote to heave Steve.


----------



## screature

NDP's Megan Leslie brushes off party rifts over niqab debate

Now why does this not surprise me in the least?

I wonder how she or any Canadian would feel if it was suggested that a *man* could cover up his face while taking the oath of citizenship or serving in the public service??? 

How about if a man was wearing a balaclava? Would that be ok?

Hardly!!!

The hypocrisy is palpable.

There is no way in hell that a man could cover his face while taking the oath of citizenship or serving in the public service while they do their job so why should it be ok for a woman to do so?

What is good for the goose should be good for the gander and if it is not then it should be disallowed.



> I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.


----------



## Aurora

If it's ok to cover your face when taking the oath of citizenship, Then let's do it by phone.


----------



## screature

Or how about In absentia?


----------



## screature

Or this:










or this,










or this,










or this,









etc, etc. etc....


----------



## eMacMan

> *If Canadians bearing the stigma of US taint had any uncertainty about their true place in Canadian society, an announcement today by Stephen Harper should erase any lingering doubts: we are now less deserving of federal government protection than dead meat.*
> As the Canadian Press reported today:
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper is reiterating that Canada is prepared to retaliate in an ongoing trade war with the United States over country-of-origin meat-labelling rules.
> Speaking with rural leaders in Saskatoon Thursday, Harper said that retaliation will become essential at some point in the dispute.
> American country-of-origin rules require all packaged meat to identify where the animal was born, raised and slaughtered.
> Supporters of the law say it better informs U.S. consumers, but opponents argue that segregating animals and tracking them adds costs.​ *It would appear that the Prime Minister is less concerned about the US-imposed costs of segregating, tracking and labelling US Persons in Canada for their country-of-origin than he is about the same thing for pigs and cattle. Something else to remember come election day.*


The Isaac Brock Society | Harper government accepts national origin discrimination for US Persons, but not for meat

Too bad the great closet warrior did not show the same fortitude when it really counted!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's 2015 not 1915. 

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm....co/W2B8KreYOp&referrer=http://m.thestar.com/

Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau is on the wrong side of this one. So are you, Jimbo. Gonna be a wedge issue.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It's 2015 not 1915.
> 
> Why I intend to wear a niqab at my citizenship ceremony | Toronto Star
> 
> Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## SINC

No face, no place here. Atta boy Stevie!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

Want to be Canadian? Honour OUR culture.


----------



## Macfury

It's amazing how kook-left types like Jimbo play the fear card when nobody is afraid--except the Liberals knowing that Justin Trudeau is at the helm.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Time to go. Heave Steve in 2015. 

http://ow.ly/Kpn6Q


----------



## Macfury

Typical lefty nonsense from you, Jimbo. In rural areas, when seconds count, the police will be there in minutes. The right to self-defense is a cornerstone of civilization.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Time to go. Heave Steve in 2015.
> 
> Harper sparks controversy by linking guns and personal security | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I own guns. To promote their use for use against people - policing and soldiering notwithstanding - is offensive. 

It has nothing to do with left or right. 

I find your personal or quasi-personal insults offensive and typical of you.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I own guns. To promote their use for use against people - policing and soldiering notwithstanding - is offensive.


Not if the people are offensive and own guns too.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Keep 'em coming Larry. 

Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Not if the people are offensive and own guns too.



Certainly the prevailing reasoning in many corners of the nation south of us. I always thought Canada had a more sensible approach.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Certainly the prevailing reasoning in many corners of the nation south of us. I always thought Canada had a more sensible approach.


Can't say that I find remaining unarmed or keeping weapons locked in the gun cabinet while under direct threat from others with firearms is a sensible approach. Sorry about that.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> Can't say that I find remaining unarmed or keeping weapons locked in the gun cabinet while under direct threat from others with firearms is a sensible approach. Sorry about that.



It's the PROMOTION that I find offensive. It will lead to escalated gun use. Bad policy in my opinion. 

My guns are kept at my rural property. I don't have a gun in the city.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It's the PROMOTION that I find offensive. It will lead to escalated gun use. Bad policy in my opinion.


Ony if current gun owners suddeny become irresponsible with their weapons. I have no plans to change my gun ownership behaviour from that of my past 56 years of responsible ownership. I doubt you will either, so tell me just who is going to escalate gun use?


----------



## Macfury

I don't care if you own a gun. And whether you believe it should be used for self defense is almost exclusively predicated along left-right lines. You happen to be just another example of that schism.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I own guns. To promote their use for use against people - policing and soldiering notwithstanding - is offensive.
> 
> It has nothing to do with left or right.
> 
> I find your personal or quasi-personal insults offensive and typical of you.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Typical lefty nonsense from you, Jimbo. In rural areas, when seconds count, the police will be there in minutes. The right to self-defense is a cornerstone of civilization.


I agree but "Guys, this is an election year"! Also, we do not have a "Stand your ground law" in Canada, nor is the use of a weapon " in self-defence" de facto legal in Canada. This, to me, is pandering to the rural votes and those against the long gun registry.

Harper at his best, I can hardly wait for Mulcair to say how bad a statement this is, and Trudeau copying it in his speeches.


----------



## Macfury

Just like talk of a carbon tax is pandering to the enviro lobby. As you say, it's an election year.



Rps said:


> I agree but "Guys, this is an election year"! Also, we do not have a "Stand your ground law" in Canada, nor is the use of a weapon " in self-defence" de facto legal in Canada. This, to me, is pandering to the rural votes and those against the long gun registry.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Is that so?

http://natpo.st/1GZ5EcL


----------



## Macfury

Yes, that's so. A lefty premiere wades in to further prove my point.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Is that so?
> 
> Quebec premier rips Harper’s pro-gun comment, says it risks legitimizing vigilantism | National Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ha. This is a turning point. Combined with the bigoted comments of Steve, Williams, Alexander, Kenney, and Miller the CPC is exposed for what they are. 

Stay tuned.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And a reporter picking up on the BS -

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...n-fear/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


----------



## Macfury

Liberals are soaking in fear over the next election...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And a reporter picking up on the BS -
> 
> Michael Den Tandt: The Conservatives have Canadians soaking in fear | National Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I sense anxiety on all sides. A good thing. 

Having said that I never thought a conservative govt could sink lower than Brian "I'll take the cash" Mulroney. This is a new low.


----------



## Macfury

No fear from me or any Conservative voter I know. Sounds like a phantom fear that the Liberals will blame for their upcoming loss.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I sense anxiety on all sides. A good thing.


----------



## FeXL

No fear here. Bring it!


----------



## SINC

Isn't Jimbo the one running scared that Harper will be re-elected? Why else would he work so hard to try and sway opinion here, which by the way is an utter failure.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Not here to sway opinion of Steve fans. There do appear to be more passive viewers than posters though. 
Just here attempting to represent the majority of CDN's. 

Not scared. But will be ashamed if Steve pulls off a majority. 

I'd be elated with a minority of any stripe and more Greens elected.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Isn't Jimbo the one running scared that Harper will be re-elected? Why else would he work so hard to try and sway opinion here, which by the way is an utter failure.


There you go SINC--JImbo is "working the room" to sway votes to the Greens. That makes even less sense,


----------



## Macfury

*Liberals unfit to govern*

The party has a long way to go before it heaves this sort of baggage. Wonder what will happen at the trial and sentencing of these Liberals.

Liberal MP Scott Andrews 'astounded' by reports of permanent ousting from caucus | CTV News


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I own guns. *To promote their use for use against people* - policing and soldiering notwithstanding - is offensive.
> 
> It has nothing to do with left or right.
> 
> I find your personal or quasi-personal insults offensive and typical of you.


Where exactly did he promote that other than in your imagination Jimbo?


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> *It's the PROMOTION that I find offensive.* It will lead to escalated gun use. Bad policy in my opinion.
> 
> My guns are kept at my rural property. I don't have a gun in the city.


Nope no promotion, it did not happen. Show me where?


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I agree but "Guys, this is an election year"! Also, we do not have a "Stand your ground law" in Canada, nor is the use of a weapon " in self-defence" de facto legal in Canada. This, to me, is pandering to the rural votes and those against the long gun registry.
> *
> Harper at his best,* I can hardly wait for Mulcair to say how bad a statement this is, and Trudeau copying it in his speeches.


Wow, are you and and all the rest of the media jumping to conclusions. As undoubtedly will be the Opposition in QP next week.

People who don't have guns in rural areas have to call the RCMP or their PP when they feel that they, or their livestock or pets are being threatened, whether it be by bears, wolves, coyotes, humans, etc. to help them deal with the situation.

Who said anything about human "targets" aside from the media and the opposition. Certainly not the PM.

Instead of reading between the lines why not refer to what was actually said.

Harper at his worst can still deal with Muclair at his best, as was witnessed last week in QP.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BS. All the recent communication - fear mongering and Muslim baiting is orchestrated from the head master himself

Heave Steve in 2015.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Bs


Try and use your words skippy... c'mon... I know you can do it if you just try.


----------



## SINC

Yep Bs indeed, it was *b*etter *s*tated by screature. Your imagination is in overdrive in your quest to try and get votes for an alternative far worse than what we now have Jimbo.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Try and use your words skippy... c'mon... I know you can do it if you just try.



There you go had to grab a call.


----------



## screature

7 WEEK OLD BABY SAYS HELLO!!!! 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Imagine that using words at 7 weeks old!!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> There you go had to grab a call.


What the hell is that supposed to mean?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Look up. Look way up.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> What the hell is that supposed to mean?



Hit send after Bs by accident. Had to attend to a work matter and could not edit in a timely fashion if you must know.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Look up. Look way up.





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hit send after Bs by accident. Had to attend to a work matter and could not edit in a timely fashion if you must know.


You posted it. I looked it up. Nothing.

Oh you meant to say in English, "Sorry for my lack of attention I had to answer the phone. I suspected you might say that."

Browsing on the clients time? Do they know they are paying for that? beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

F uck you asshole.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> **** you asshole


Thank you skippy, Jimbo. stink... some real words of your own.

Hate me and the way I think. I really don't care. But what I do care about is a forum being wasted on posts that are better off being posted on Twitter.

C'mon. If all you are going to post is less than 120 characters there is a much more popular place to do it. You have the freedom to really express your own opinion here... why waste the opportunity?

Seriously. All you do here is try to provoke. You try to disguise your intentions by saying something like 'conservatives" when you post disparaging remarks but you know and we all know you mean it personally to the conservatives here on ehMac as well.

Yet when you are provoked directly rather than generically (when you mean it personally as well) you seem to take exception. Say what you mean and mean what you say and try to say it in your own words. You have plenty of space to do it here. For me personally it would be much more welcome than the continual bombardment of links to articles that I have already ready read without any personal opinion or "value" added commentary.

Please by all means continue to post links but hearing your own thoughts and opinions would make for a much more interesting thread/forum IMO.


----------



## Macfury

That Jimbo demonstrates time and again what a class act he is.

I just about lost it when he acted like he misspoke--on a written forum--because he had to answer the phone! 

Ooops, I just sneezed! Did I make a spelling error?:lmao:


screature said:


> Thank you skippy, Jimbo. stink... some real words of your own.


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> All the recent communication - fear mongering and Muslim baiting is orchestrated from the head master himself


Do you care to elaborate?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Do you care to elaborate?


Only if the news aggregator cares to elaborate.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Do you care to elaborate?





Macfury said:


> Only if the news aggregator cares to elaborate.


He never elaborates on anything he posts, he always lets others do his speaking for him.

He is kind of like a ventriloquist's puppet, the mouth of the puppet moves but none of the words are its own.

And yet he will criticize others for seemingly merely reiterating "talking points" and yet he is the greatest offender in that regard.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> F uck you asshole.


Just lost all respect for Jimbo.

Nothing he posts here in future will mean anything to me, nor warrant any consideration. No time for a foul mouth simpleton in my view.

Too bad. He did seem to have valid points at one time.

Self destruction is a terrible thing to see. Get some help Jimbo.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Just lost all respect for Jimbo.
> 
> Nothing he posts here in future will mean anything to me, nor warrant any consideration. No time for a foul mouth simpleton in my view.
> 
> Too bad. He did seem to have valid points at one time.
> 
> Self destruction is a terrible thing to see. Get some help Jimbo.


Strangely enough I wasn't insulted. At least he spoke his own mind for a change.

I did provoke him after all, but he does that here all the time so I felt I was justified in trying to get a rise out of him.

It is sad though that he decided to resort to using the F bomb, but then again at least he said what *he* had to say. So that is something. Now maybe if he could just keep using his own words, as I have encouraged to do so before, then an actual conversation could occur.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Wow, are you and and all the rest of the media jumping to conclusions.
> 
> Who said anything about human "targets" aside from the media and the opposition. QP.


Q
Screature, I owe you the courtesy of a few replies to your excellent rebuttals. Forgive me as I have been distracted by life situations. To this post, I think we agree. My comments were based on what I thought were the sense of where the room was going with the Harper statement on guns. I do agree wholehartedly that the media coverage, and to be honest Mr. Harper's parallelism , leans toward personal defence.

I am also sure that had this not been an election year that statement would have been worded quite differently from Mr. Harper.


----------



## Rps

Just as a note to all that visit here, I have been reading a wonderful book by Margaret MacMillian called The War That Ended Peace. It has to do with the critical mass that lead to WW1. While this is the Canadian Political Thread, I am a believer that history is a product of nature and is cyclical. Thus the saying history repeats itself ...... I have often felt we are in the 1910 political era ..... This book is interesting in that it outlines the era, but most importantly draws current day similarities.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Just as a note to all that visit here, I have been reading a wonderful book by Margaret MacMillian called The War That Ended Peace. It has to do with the critical mass that lead to WW1. While this is the Canadian Political Thread, I am a believer that history is a product of nature and is cyclical. Thus the saying history repeats itself ...... I have often felt we are in the 1910 political era ..... This book is interesting in that it outlines the era, but most importantly draws current day similarities.


Interesting points, Rp. 

I read an article by Gwynne Dyer who contended that if the US had not entered WWI in 1917, both sides would have exhausted themselves, and that a truce would have been drawn up with no clear winners or losers. He contends that this might have prevented the rise of Hitler and WWII. Sadly, we shall never know.


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting points, Rp.
> 
> I read an article by Gwynne Dyer who contended that if the US had not entered WWI in 1917, both sides would have exhausted themselves, and that a truce would have been drawn up with no clear winners or losers. He contends that this might have prevented the rise of Hitler and WWII. Sadly, we shall never know.


Well Dr. G, if anyone can make an educated guess on that it would certainly be Gwynne Dyer.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Just as a note to all that visit here, I have been reading a wonderful book by Margaret MacMillian called The War That Ended Peace. It has to do with the critical mass that lead to WW1. While this is the Canadian Political Thread, I am a believer that history is a product of nature and is cyclical. Thus the saying history repeats itself ...... I have often felt we are in the 1910 political era ..... This book is interesting in that it outlines the era, but most importantly draws current day similarities.


The treaty of Versailles certainly seems to have been designed to lead to WWII. To get to East Prussia from the main portion of Prussia (Germany). One either had to go across Poland or by sea. On top of that France took advantage of German disarmament and occupied a portion of Germany to forcefully collect the reparations they had been awarded. Those two grievances alone almost assured that Hitler or someone similar would have risen to power.

Hitler's march on Poland in that sense was at least somewhat justified. Had Britain not chosen to intervene the question then becomes: Would Hitler have been satisfied with driving the French out of Germany and disputed border regions, or would he have gone on to invade France in retribution? I can see that going either way. However given Hitlers hatred of the Soviet Union it seems possible that he would have moved as quickly as possible to attack Russia.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Well Dr. G, if anyone can make an educated guess on that it would certainly be Gwynne Dyer.


Very true. His argument made sense, with a truce not imposing brutal reparations upon Germany that lead to the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> The treaty of Versailles certainly seems to have been designed to lead to WWII. To get to East Prussia from the main portion of Prussia (Germany). One either had to go across Poland or by sea. On top of that France took advantage of German disarmament and occupied a portion of Germany to forcefully collect the reparations they had been awarded. Those two grievances alone almost assured that Hitler or someone similar would have risen to power.
> 
> Hitler's march on Poland in that sense was at least somewhat justified. Had Britain not chosen to intervene the question then becomes: Would Hitler have been satisfied with driving the French out of Germany and disputed border regions, or would he have gone on to invade France in retribution? I can see that going either way. However given Hitlers hatred of the Soviet Union it seems possible that he would have moved as quickly as possible to attack Russia.


True, eMacMan. And this is just what Hitler did re France and then with the breaking of the treaty with Russia. Luckily, England was able to stand alone during the months of "The Blitz".


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Very true. His argument made sense, with a truce not imposing brutal reparations upon Germany that lead to the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party.


What level of reparations from Germany do you suppose would have been appropriate, Dr. G?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Just as a note to all that visit here, I have been reading a wonderful book by Margaret MacMillian called The War That Ended Peace. It has to do with the critical mass that lead to WW1. While this is the Canadian Political Thread, I am a believer that history is a product of nature and is cyclical. Thus the saying history repeats itself ...... I have often felt we are in the 1910 political era ..... This book is interesting in that it outlines the era, but most importantly draws current day similarities.


Certainly Woodrow Wilson and Barack Obama have both ushered in administrations painfully marked by the profound failure of "progressive" foreign policy.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> What level of reparations from Germany do you suppose would have been appropriate, Dr. G?


According to Gwynne Dyer, Germany would have pulled out of any European territory it held in exchange for some of the African colonies that France and England no longer really wanted.


----------



## Macfury

And no reparations?



Dr.G. said:


> According to Gwynne Dyer, Germany would have pulled out of any European territory it held in exchange for some of the African colonies that France and England no longer really wanted.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> And no reparations?


Just an end to the war. All sides were exhausted and nearly used up in terms of troops. At the time, Germany held the upper hand, and it was only when the US entered the war that the tide swung towards the Allies. So, Germany pulls back to its original borders, is able to save some face by getting some African colonies, and the war is finally over with a devastating loss of life on all sides.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Q
> Screature, I owe you the courtesy of a few replies to your excellent rebuttals. Forgive me as I have been distracted by life situations. To this post, I think we agree. My comments were based on what I thought were the sense of where the room was going with the Harper statement on guns. I do agree wholehartedly that the media coverage, and to be honest Mr. Harper's parallelism , *leans toward personal defence*.
> 
> *I am also sure that had this not been an election year that statement would have been worded quite differently from Mr. Harper.*


Yes but from what? 

The PM's subsequent statements made it clear that there is no tolerance for vigilantism or taking the law into your own hands. 

I think that what he was saying is that, people who live in rural areas may feel more secure if they have a gun around the house, (like his wife who grew up in a rural area) most likely to protect themselves against predatory wildlife, but also against predatory human life, in the event that their lives were being threatened by other human beings.

Sometimes the cops don't come soon enough even in a big city when someone's life is in jeopardy let alone in rural areas. 

So all that being said, even if the PM were referring *only* to human threats to life and limb I think he would have been justified in saying it. If I am faced with an immediate life threatening situation and the cops may be at least 20 minutes away, personally I know I will feel a whole lot safer if there is a gun in house. It may be a false sense of security but at least I have a means of defence against someone who wishes to do me harm and has a gun.

If they don't have a gun and all they have is just a knife or an axe or something like that then my gun trumps their weapon and then hopefully they will realize they are at a disadvantage and just run away.

*I agree because both the NDP and Libs have indicated that if elected they will re-institute the gun registry in some form or another. So in that light his comments make perfect sense when speaking to his base.*


----------



## Rps

Screature, while I agree with your observations, I still maintain this is a non-issue that Mr. Harper could safely comment on without fear of a significant policy change or .... And this is the most important part, at least to me, he can develop a wedge between the opposition parties to further separate the Conservatives for the other two major parties. It may be me but I think the NDP have done a wonderful job of showing a centrist lean in the recent policy speeches while still keeping their left of centre history .... Note Mr. Mulcairs recent speech into Toronto .... All economics.... It was quite a nice move on his part. For Mr. Trudeau, I see him as riding much of the Conservative's policy, stealing thunder if you will. This will be fun to watch going forward. My contacts tell me that Mr. Mulcair is loosing some ground in Quebec, is this your thought as well. I can not see Quebec entirely liking the Liberals ..... That after taste last along time. Thoughts.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, while I agree with your observations, I still maintain this is a non-issue that Mr. Harper could safely comment on without fear of a significant policy change or .... And this is the most important part, at least to me, he can develop a wedge between the opposition parties to further separate the Conservatives for the other two major parties. It may be me but I think the NDP have done a wonderful job of showing a centrist lean in the recent policy speeches while still keeping their left of centre history .... Note Mr. Mulcairs recent speech into Toronto .... All economics.... It was quite a nice move on his part. For Mr. Trudeau, I see him as riding much of the Conservative's policy, stealing thunder if you will. This will be fun to watch going forward. My contacts tell me that Mr. Mulcair is loosing some ground in Quebec, is this your thought as well. I can not see Quebec entirely liking the Liberals ..... That after taste last along time. Thoughts.


Sorry you beat me to the punch. Please look at my edit to my previous post. I just put it in bold to make it easier to find.


----------



## Rps

No worries, it's my old eyes acting up again.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, while I agree with your observations, I still maintain this is a non-issue that Mr. Harper could safely comment on without fear of a significant policy change or .... And this is the most important part, at least to me, he can develop a wedge between the opposition parties to further separate the Conservatives for the other two major parties. It may be me but I think the NDP have done a wonderful job of showing a centrist lean in the recent policy speeches while still keeping their left of centre history .... Note Mr. Mulcairs recent speech into Toronto .... All economics.... It was quite a nice move on his part. For Mr. Trudeau, I see him as riding much of the Conservative's policy, stealing thunder if you will. This will be fun to watch going forward. *My contacts tell me that Mr. Mulcair is loosing some ground in Quebec, is this your thought as well. I can not see Quebec entirely liking the Liberals ..... That after taste last along time. Thoughts*.


I really can't say for sure as I am among the minority in Quebec. From what I have seen in the polls the BQ has been trending higher, but I don't see how without any significant funds they can run a full slate of candidates.

In Quebec IMO it is a fight between the NDP and the Libs. But as you alluded to there is a significant bitter after taste left in the mouths of Qubecers that lingers still to this day when it comes to the name Trudeau.

The one thing I know for sure is that in this election year I will not be voting for the lesser of evils, i.e., the NDP or the Libs. I will be voting Conservative even if it means I will be essentially wasting my vote/spoiling my ballot. I certainly do not want to in this election give my vote to either the NDP or the Libs.


----------



## Rps

My research is trending toward a more conservative view of the population. I am not saying that these voters will vote for the Conservatives with Mr. Harper, but the party who brings the most palitable conservative policies will probably win.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> *My research is trending toward a more conservative view of the population*. I am not saying that these voters will vote for the Conservatives with Mr. Harper, but the party who brings the most palitable conservative policies will probably win.


Overall I tend to agree but La Belle Province is a whole different kettle of fish altogether. 

Just sayin'...

If you are correct in your research, the Cons then stand a chance of having another majority because the NDP and the Libs are more concerned about somehow consolidating the left vote rather than in any way aligning themselves with the right. The Libs a little bit more so but not by very much. The NDP on the other hand wants to try and portray themselves as the true "alternative", thus why even in QP and SO31s they take pot shots at the Libs as well as the Cons.

I believe vote splitting will be a major factor in the outcome of the coming election and that favours well for the Conservatives IMO.


----------



## Macfury

H's stealing zero thunder because nothing he say smacks remotely of conservatism, from his carbon tax on down.



Rps said:


> For Mr. Trudeau, I see him as riding much of the Conservative's policy, stealing thunder if you will.


----------



## Rps

McFury, I think we can agree to disagree. The root of Mr. Trudeau's speeches lie somewhere in conservative policy ..... That is when the Libs actually roll out policy. It is hard to attack something that is moving.


----------



## SINC

Attaboy Steve, keep up the good work. Nearly 90% of us are behind you on covered faces! Did I mention nearly 3/4 of us agree covering faces is oppression of women? Bring on the election so we can ditch JT and Mulcair and get on with reshaping the country.

Most Canadians say faces shouldn’t be covered at citizenship ceremonies: poll - National | Globalnews.ca

Are you paying attention Jimbo?


----------



## Macfury

rps, as you say, Justin Trudeau has not actually articulated any conservative policies... so how can you claim he's stealing Stephen Harper's thunder by articulating conservatism? From anything he's said about crime, terrorism, carbon taxes, energy, the environment, taxation, and immigration, he's going by the left-lib book. 

Where's the "conservative root"?



Rps said:


> McFury, I think we can agree to disagree. The root of Mr. Trudeau's speeches lie somewhere in conservative policy ..... That is when the Libs actually roll out policy. It is hard to attack something that is moving.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> rps, as you say, Justin Trudeau has not actually articulated any conservative policies... so how can you claim he's stealing Stephen Harper's thunder by articulating conservatism? From anything he's said about crime, terrorism, carbon taxes, energy, the environment, taxation, and immigration, he's going by the left-lib book.
> 
> Where's the "conservative root"?


From my point of view, the Harper Conservatives are not really conservative. They talk a good story but they and the Liberals could write each other's policies .....


----------



## Macfury

I've argued before that the Conservatives are not Conservative enough and I tell them so each time they ask for money. 

However, your point now appears to be that the Conservatives are too liberal, not that JT is stealing the Prime Minister's thunder by articulating conservatism. 



Rps said:


> From my point of view, the Harper Conservatives are not really conservative. They talk a good story but they and the Liberals could write each other's policies .....


----------



## Rps

Well you could state it that way. I think the concept of Conservatism has had a bad rap over the last decade ... Not sure if we have a true Conservative party in Canada.


----------



## CubaMark

*Worried about C-51? You’re probably a terrorist.*

Are you now, or have you ever been, a terrorist?

That, in one form or another, is the question being asked over and over by Conservative MPs of expert witnesses called before the Commons standing committee reviewing Bill C-51, the so-called anti-terrorism law.

I spoke before the committee last week. I pointed to the danger in the bill’s much-expanded definition of national security and in its false conflation of peaceful protest with terrorism. I was expecting to be called on to defend our arguments, to cite evidence on how the bill’s sweeping new powers could be used against peaceful advocates for action on climate change.

No one on the government side seemed terribly interested in our argument — but they were very interested in us.

Conservative MP LaVar Payne asked me if I consider myself to be a threat to national security — because, he said,* if I’m not a terrorist then why would I worry about an “anti-terrorism” bill? He added that our criticism of C-51 made him “wonder if your organization is a national security threat”.* (I never got a chance to respond, since Payne kept talking to run out the clock.)

This was no slip of the tongue. Carmen Cheung, senior counsel for the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, spoke to the committee shortly before me. Her carefully-parsed legal arguments on the threats this bill poses to civil rights without enhancing security were dismissed by Conservative MP Rick Norlock as “rambling” — before *he had the gall to ask her if she is “simply fundamentally opposed to taking terrorists off the street”.*

The third witness on our panel was Ron Atkey, who has seen national security operations up close as a former Conservative cabinet minister and as the first chair of the Security Intelligence Review Committee. He warned that Bill C-51 is “a constitutional mess” and offered recommendations on how to fix it. It was the Conservative committee members who had invited him to testify — presumably with the expectation that he would support the bill. Oddly enough, they had no questions for him.

* * *​
More than 100 legal experts have written to parliamentarians to say that *this legislation is dangerous *— that it will make it harder to effectively fight terrorism while introducing unprecedented infringements on our rights and privacy. Their concerns have been echoed by four former prime ministers, five former Supreme Court judges, the federal Privacy Commissioner, Amnesty International, the Assembly of First Nations and a host of other organizations. *Are they all terrorists?*

Still, the hearings go on — driving home the message that Canadians shouldn’t risk asking too many questions about C-51.​
(iPolitics)


----------



## Macfury

When Pierre Trudeau failed to rescind the _War Measures Act _for _years _following the FLQ crisis, Liberals remained silent. This bill needs work, but this clawing at hair shirts is more part of Harper Derangement Syndrome than actual concern.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> When Pierre Trudeau failed to rescind the _War Measures Act _for _years _following the FLQ crisis, Liberals remained silent. This bill needs work, but this clawing at hair shirts is more part of Harper Derangement Syndrome than actual concern.


Sorry but labeling any one who opposes you as a terrorist is more than ample proof that the ConMeißter definition of terrorist is way too broad. Especially as the bill gives secret state police organizations the directive to use any means possible to suppress terrorism. The STASI, KGB and Gestapo all would have been drooling over the powers this bill gives CSEC and CSIS.

The bill should be scrapped forthwith, especially given the timing of the far too convenient attacks being used to justify it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Air Canada ad suggests Atlantic Canada is a separate country - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Oops. I don't recall a referendum being held to leave Canada.


----------



## Macfury

Farewell, Dr. G!


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Air Canada ad suggests Atlantic Canada is a separate country - Nova Scotia - CBC News
> 
> Oops. I don't recall a referendum being held to leave Canada.


Once the constitution had been shredded there was no need for a referendum. 

Did Atlantic Canada secede or were they evicted?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Farewell, Dr. G!


Au revoir, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Once the constitution had been shredded there was no need for a referendum.
> 
> Did Atlantic Canada secede or were they evicted?


We were told that since parts of PEI, NB, NL and NS had over three times their average snowfall this winter, we were "harshing the buzz" of the rest of Canada that is now experiencing Spring. C'es la vie. Au revoir, mes amis.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> We were told that since parts of PEI, NB, NL and NS had over three times their average snowfall this winter, we were "harshing the buzz" of the rest of Canada that is now experiencing Spring. C'es la vie. Au revoir, mes amis.


Well surely that will teach you to attempt to deny seasonal global warming.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Well surely that will teach you to attempt to deny seasonal global warming.


All too true, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Once the constitution had been shredded there was no need for a referendum.


LOL! I wish we would shred the constitution!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> When Pierre Trudeau failed to rescind the _War Measures Act _for _years _following the FLQ crisis, Liberals remained silent. This bill needs work, *but this clawing at hair shirts is more part of Harper Derangement Syndrome than actual concern*.


I agree MF. If it were not an election year Bill C-51 would have passed with a little dissent from the fringe but not the current ballyhoo. 

The Conservatives are WAY out ahead of the Libs and the NDP when it comes to polling, they look like amateurs by comparison.

3/4s of Canadians are in favour of the extended mission even into Syria... the proof is in the pudding... QP only matters to those who are in favour of the looser of the next election at this point IMO.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> ...the proof is in the pudding...


Where? 

Exactly which proof is it?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Where?
> 
> Exactly which proof is it?


Do try and keep up.

ISIS mission has support of Canadians, polls suggest - 24News.ca

ISIS mission has support of Canadians, polls suggest - Politics - CBC News

Canadians support Iraq extension, despite flaws | The Crag and Canyon

Canadians can back extended mission in Iraq: U of C terrorism expert | 660News

Majority of Canadians favour extending anti-ISIS mission: poll - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Do try and keep up.


I think he has a job as a weather reporter at that ghost town they call Mac Magic.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I think he has a job as a weather reporter at that ghost town they call Mac Magic.


Not only that, his new signature is an insult to the majority of his fellow Canadians.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Not only that, his new signature is an insult to the majority of his fellow Canadians.


I'd prefer he keep that signature--it brands him as a fool and makes him easier to identify.


----------



## FeXL

Agreed.

Apparently the irony of him accusing PM Harper of being a war monger when compared to all the drone killings Jug Ears has authorized is missed, as well. 

Where's the outcry there, BigDL? Unable to find it in yourself to criticize a Democrat, a lefty, a liberal, a <snort> progressive?


----------



## Dr.G.

Younger Canadians more left wing, could shift political landscape: study - The Globe and Mail

Problem is that this demographic does not vote as much as older Canadians. Sad ............. Everyone should vote ......... right, left or center ............ ALL should vote if they have the right.


----------



## Macfury

That flies in the face of significant indicators that younger millennials are far less trusting of government and much more likely to be anti-interventionist. 



Dr.G. said:


> Younger Canadians more left wing, could shift political landscape: study - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Problem is that this demographic does not vote as much as older Canadians. Sad ............. Everyone should vote ......... right, left or center ............ ALL should vote if they have the right.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That flies in the face of significant indicators that younger millennials are far less trusting of government and much more likely to be anti-interventionist.


Well, don't shoot the messenger. I just wish more of them would vote.


----------



## Macfury

The leftists would probably be better off staying at home and clawing at their hair ****s than voting.



Dr.G. said:


> Well, don't shoot the messenger. I just wish more of them would vote.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The leftists would probably be better off staying at home and clawing at their hair ****s than voting.


????  "clawing at their hair ****s" ????


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> ????  "clawing at their hair ****s" ????


Interesting that I can get away with the plural but not the singular. No Dr. G. their feces are only slightly hairier than those on the left. Hair _shirts_ is what I intended.


----------



## Macfury

Tories to scale back scope of anti-terror bill to allay concerns it goes too far - The Globe and Mail

There you go!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Tories to scale back scope of anti-terror bill to allay concerns it goes too far - The Globe and Mail
> 
> There you go!


This is a good change to clarify the bill's intent. Will it shut up the likes of Mulcair and JT? Not likely they will grasp the significance of the move.


----------



## Rps

Two quick thoughts here. First, Dr G, voting should be mandatory, but I would have a none of the above box.
Second, when ever the West has entered into war with the Middle East, and we are at war with them, as Colin Powell states we will own it..... Bush never listened, and neither will Harper.


----------



## Macfury

Voting should not be mandatory. I don't want people voting who can not be motivated into dragging their sorry asses into a polling booth.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Two quick thoughts here. First, Dr G, voting should be mandatory, but I would have a none of the above box.
> Second, when ever the West has entered into war with the Middle East, and we are at war with them, as Colin Powell states we will own it..... Bush never listened, and neither will Harper.


I like the "none of the above" idea, but it would open up a can of worms if "none of the above" won the election. Then what??????????


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Voting should not be mandatory. I don't want people voting who can not be motivated into dragging their sorry asses into a polling booth.


In a way, I agree. I am not an advocate of punishing someone who does not vote. I recall that I could not wait to vote, especially since most of us who turned 18 and were drafted to go fight in Vietnam could not vote. Sadly, some of them never made it home to ever vote in an election. All the more reason to go and exercise your right to vote.

In Canada, voting is one of the responsibilities of citizenship. I had to explain this when I became a citizen and had to demonstrate that I could speak one of Canada's two official languages fluently and with understanding of what it meant to be a Canadian citizen.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Voting should not be mandatory. I don't want people voting who can not be motivated into dragging their sorry asses into a polling booth.


I disagree, we have a large part of the voting populace who, and some would say rightly, think there is little difference in what the parties actually do in power. When you consider the small amount of voting percentage, and the small percentage that the winner actually receives, I see nothing wrong with a none of the above winner, it would force the parties to gain a majority of the voters confidence ... Do you really think that we won't be in an election one year after this next one!


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Two quick thoughts here. First, Dr G, voting should be mandatory, but I would have a none of the above box.


Mandatory voting would do more harm than good to the system. I cannot imagine anyone forced into the polling booth to vote with any measure of informed intelligence. Disgruntled (forced) voters could wind up foisting very poor governments on the populace. It is a silly and counter productive move by any nation.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Mandatory voting would do more harm than good to the system. I cannot imagine anyone forced into the polling booth to vote with any measure of informed intelligence. Disgruntled (forced) voters could wind up foisting very poor governments on the populace. It is a silly and counter productive move by any nation.


Sinc, many would argue that we don't have good governments now.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Sinc, many would argue that we don't have good governments now.


How would people being forced to choose a government they had no interest in choosing make them better?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> How would people being forced to choose a government they had no interest in choosing make them better?


It is called non of the above.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> It is called non of the above.


Which opens the door for a failed election with no result which is ludicrous.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Which opens the door for a failed election with no result which is ludicrous.


Exactly.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Exactly.


Gentlemen, my point is we have so very few voters as a percentage in this country. We also have 5 main parties ( of the 35 or so registered parties ) which means that we have more votes against the winner than for them more often than not. A non of the above vote would be the only way the parties could be forced to come up with workable and electable policy. I see little difference between placing a system in place that has a chance of electing a party with an actual majority of popular vote instead of the minority government we have had. It wasn't too long ago we have 5 election in under 10 years or so. 

So while I do see and understand your point, I think it better to have a clear winner than what we have now. And, this next election will probably be a short term Harper minority government. So we have an election to have an election .... And the difference is?


----------



## SINC

Well another Con majority blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?

Watch it happen.


----------



## Macfury

I don't share your angst over this situation.



Rps said:


> Gentlemen, my point is we have so very few voters as a percentage in this country. We also have 5 main parties ( of the 35 or so registered parties ) which means that we have more votes against the winner than for them more often than not. A non of the above vote would be the only way the parties could be forced to come up with workable and electable policy. I see little difference between placing a system in place that has a chance of electing a party with an actual majority of popular vote instead of the minority government we have had. It wasn't too long ago we have 5 election in under 10 years or so.
> 
> So while I do see and understand your point, I think it better to have a clear winner than what we have now. And, this next election will probably be a short term Harper minority government. So we have an election to have an election .... And the difference is?


----------



## Rps

Hi Sinc, just wondering your thoughts on the maybe called Provincial election in Alberta. Do you think the Wild Rose Party will be a threat, as I see them as more "traditional Alberta Conservative" than Prentice's current government. If so, Smith must certainly be left fielded .


----------



## SINC

bump to see if Rp's post shows up, and it did!


----------



## SINC

Latest polls have PCs and Wildrose tied at 30% support each.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Latest polls have PCs and Wildrose tied at 30% support each.


Ontario seems to be leaning towards the PCs Provincially. My thoughts are how Alberta votes Federally will determine the winning parties platform. So maybe Harper will win the election but loose the battle. I'm still leaning towards a Conservative minority government. Do you still think a Con majority?


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau shows no sensitivity at all to Alberta, so I doubt he will be playing to them much in the party's platform.



Rps said:


> Ontario seems to be leaning towards the PCs Provincially. My thoughts are how Alberta votes Federally will determine the winning parties platform. So maybe Harper will win the election but loose the battle. I'm still leaning towards a Conservative minority government. Do you still think a Con majority?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Trudeau shows no sensitivity at all to Alberta, so I doubt he will be playing to them much in the party's platform.


I find it hard to disagree with you here. Not sure if Ontario will carry the day for him ....NDP , maybe here.


----------



## eMacMan

For those of us whom the PM shoved under the C 31 omnibus, the surrender of Canadian Sovereignty to the IRS is still a big deal. Some pertinent comments in this thread.

The Isaac Brock Society | Burning down barns is not wrong because it is illegal; it is illegal because it is wrong



> Back in the Trudeaupian golden age, you may recall, the great man’s barnstorming transformation of Canada was momentarily halted by a storm about barns. It emerged that some overzealous officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had burned down barns belonging to Quebec separatists. The press was briefly exercised over this, but M. Trudeau gave one of his famous shrugs and airily remarked that, if people were so upset by the Mounties burning down barns illegally, perhaps he’d make the burning of barns by the Mounties legal. As the great George Jonas commented: “It seemed not to occur to him that it isn’t wrong to burn down barns because it’s illegal, but it’s illegal to burn down barns because it’s wrong. Like other statist politicians, Mr. Trudeau seemed to think his ability to set out for his country what is legal and illegal also entitled him to set out for his citizens what is right and wrong. He either didn’t see, or resented, that right and wrong are only reflected by the laws, not determined by them.”





> The Honourable Stephen Harper, Prime Minister of Canada, is a moral embarrassment. Before he forced the FATCA IGA into law, it was illegal for the government of Canada, based on national origin discrimination, to give the financial information of Canadian citizens to a foreign government. But it is still wrong to do so, and it doesn’t matter how many laws Harper forces through Parliament, it will remain wrong.


You can contribute to legal challenge here:
ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty

More info here:
The Isaac Brock Society | Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

or here:
Maple Sandbox | A gathering place for people fighting FATCA, FBAR and US citizenship-based taxation


----------



## Rps

eMacMan, I have always thought that a majority government is a loss of democracy within our democratic process.

Edited comment. eMacMan, expressed another way, Mr.Harper is running the government as a democracy, rather than the constitutional republic we are. I know this comment will bring challenges, but since we have entrenched minority interests rights in a constitution ... and this, I think is the hallmark of a republic, he is only operating within the confines of the system to get what he sees as just.


----------



## CubaMark

What's behind the NDP's rise in Alberta? 

*Tom Mulcair's NDP may be turning a corner, polls suggest*










_The increase in support recorded in the national polls has been especially felt in British Columbia and Alberta.

The most dramatic increase has been in Alberta, where the NDP is expected to make gains in the upcoming provincial election. From a low of 12 per cent support in early February, the NDP has made steady gains in the province and is currently polling at around 17 per cent support. This jump has come primarily at the expense of the Conservatives.

This does not mean that Alberta will be the NDP's next Quebec. But it does put a couple of more seats in play for the party. The New Democrats won a single seat in the province in 2011._​
(CBC)


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> eMacMan, I have always thought that a majority government is a loss of democracy within our democratic process.
> 
> Edited comment. eMacMan, expressed another way, Mr.Harper is running the government as a democracy, rather than the constitutional republic we are. I know this comment will bring challenges, but since we have entrenched minority interests rights in a constitution ... and this, I think is the hallmark of a republic, he is only operating within the confines of the system to get what he sees as just.


Perhaps altering "what he sees as just" to: "what his corporate masters demand", would be more accurate

Still this bill was a clear violation of both the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Bottom line alá Trudeau, it is still wrong no matter what sort of legislation he bull-dozes through parliament.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> What's behind the NDP's rise in Alberta? )


Malcontents from the east moving to Alberta and importing their diseased philosophies with them.


----------



## SINC

Edmonton is where the support for the NDP traditionally is, thus its alter name, 'Redmonton'. It won't make much difference provincially as rural areas do not support the dippers.


----------



## eMacMan

Realistically the biggest issue facing the conmen in Alberta is Harpo throwing wounded Canadian vets under the blunderbus. 

Lets be brutal a $70,000 lump sum payment does not even begin to compensate a severely maimed vet. The damage may have been suffered while supporting the Military Industrial Complex, aka The Harpo Buds. However the vets who were injured honestly believed they were serving their country and deserve much better treatment than they are getting at the hands of the Conmen.


----------



## Macfury

I really don't think this issue is going to be an election-buster, especially since there is no difference in the way Liberals and PCs form their policy around this.



eMacMan said:


> Realistically the biggest issue facing the conmen in Alberta is Harpo throwing wounded Canadian vets under the blunderbus.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> In a way, I agree. I am not an advocate of punishing someone who does not vote. I recall that I could not wait to vote, especially since most of us who turned 18 and were drafted to go fight in Vietnam could not vote. Sadly, some of them never made it home to ever vote in an election. All the more reason to go and exercise your right to vote.
> 
> *In Canada, voting is one of the responsibilities of citizenship. *I had to explain this when I became a citizen and had to demonstrate that I could speak one of Canada's two official languages fluently and with understanding of what it meant to be a Canadian citizen.





Rps said:


> Screature, and others, I guess we will agree to disagree here. I believe everyone with in reason of circumstance should vote ... But I also would have a none of the above vote. The issue that I see today is the only way we track dissenters is those whose refuse their ballot, not those who maybe dissenting and simply not voting. I would amend my position if we allowed a minority government to govern fully term without being brought down .... I know many of you disagree with my thought here, but I would either like to see a clear winner or we let the minority winner, if you will, govern


I disagree. Nowhere in our Constitution does it sate that voting is a responsibility, it is a right and because it is a right we should also have the right to *not* vote if that is one's choice.

I don't want to have a large percentage of the population going out and casting a vote based on little to no knowledge of the issues just becuase they have to... That is not democracy in the least.

It might favor a given party (like the Libs currently) at a particular point in time when they have a particularly "good looking" candidate for example, but then it would be just like voting for class president in High School.

Is that what we want our democracy to be based upon?


----------



## Rps

Screature, and others, I guess we will agree to disagree here. I believe everyone with in reason of circumstance should vote ... But I also would have a none of the above vote. The issue that I see today is the only way we track dissenters is those whose refuse their ballot, not those who maybe dissenting and simply not voting. I would amend my position if we allowed a minority government to govern fully term without being brought down .... I know many of you disagree with my thought here, but I would either like to see a clear winner or we let the minority winner, if you will, govern


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I disagree. Nowhere in our Constitution does it sate that voting is a responsibility, it is a right and because it is a right we should also have the right to *not* vote if that is one's choice.
> 
> I don't want to have a large percentage of the population going out and casting a vote based on little to no knowledge of the issues just becuase they have to... That is not democracy in the least.
> 
> It might favor a given party (like the Libs currently) at a particular point in time when they have a particularly "good looking" candidate for example, but then it would be just like voting for class president in High School.
> 
> Is that what we want our democracy to be based upon?


Well, it was a question on my citizenship test.

"Voting in elections — The right to vote comes with a responsibility to vote in federal, provincial or territorial and local elections."

Discover Canada


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Well, it was a question on my citizenship test.
> 
> "Voting in elections — The right to vote comes with a responsibility to vote in federal, provincial or territorial and local elections."
> 
> Discover Canada


Your citizenship test is *not* the Constitution. Plus also just to add the Citizenship Test has changed at least a couple of times since you took the test. And I dare say the Constitution trumps the Citizenship test... even when you took it, it did *not* say that voting was *mandatory.*

So where does mandatory start and end?

Should it be mandatory to vote in Municipal or Provincial elections? If so or if not why so or why not?

Where does the freedom begin and what is mandatory end.... It is a very slippery slope...

If we go this route maybe those under the age of majority should have to serve a certain time in the military... Mandatory anything is a double edged sword and should be thought through fully and not made public policy without a really thorough and fulsome debate.

I highly doubt than any Bill forcing Mandatory Voting would pass a Supreme Court challenge.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, and others, I guess we will agree to disagree here. I believe everyone with in reason of circumstance should vote ... *But I also would have a none of the above vote.* The issue that I see today is the only way we track dissenters is those whose refuse their ballot, not those who maybe dissenting and simply not voting. I would amend my position if we allowed a minority government to govern fully term without being brought down .... I know many of you disagree with my thought here, but I would either like to see a clear winner or we let the minority winner, if you will, govern


I also agree with a *none of the above vote*, but I would not make voting mandatory as it restricts my freedom not to vote if I so choose.

You need a license to drive a car but you also have the freedom not to drive a car par example.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Your citizenship test is *not* the Constitution. Plus also just to add the Citizenship Test has changed at least a couple of times since you took the test. And I dare say the Constitution trumps the Citizenship test... even when you took it, it did *not* say that voting was *mandatory.*
> 
> So where does mandatory start and end?
> 
> Should it be mandatory to vote in Municipal or Provincial elections? If so or if not why so or why not?
> 
> Where does the freedom begin and what is mandatory end.... It is a very slippery slope...
> 
> If we go this route maybe those under the age of majority should have to serve a certain time in the military... Mandatory anything is a double edged sword and should be thought through fully and not made public policy without a really thorough and fulsome debate.
> 
> I highly doubt than any Bill forcing Mandatory Voting would pass a Supreme Court challenge.


True. Section 3 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the Canadian Constitution states that "Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of the members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein." The government of Canada has established that voting is a responsibility with this right.

I looked at the recent Canadian citizenship test online ................ far easier than the one I took back in 1997.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> True. Section 3 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the Canadian Constitution states that *"Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of the members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein."* The government of Canada has established that voting is a responsibility with this right.
> 
> I looked at the recent Canadian citizenship test online ................ far easier than the one I took back in 1997.


Exactly and that is the way it should remain IMO.

Personally I vote in all elections of any kind because if I didn't I would feel that I had wasted my democratic right to vote. Others may not feel that way but I believe in a free society they should be allowed to express their disinterest by not voting at all.

Politics should not trump freedom, unless said "freedom" goes against the fundamental values of our society, i.e., Constitution and Bill of Rights.

And that is exactly what is at stake now on many fronts. It all depends on what you believe is fundamental to our society as Canadian's. You have your views and I have mine and aren't we lucky that we live in a society that we can openly discuss/debate such issues?

Also just to add, as a natural born citizen of Canada I did not have to take any oath that I have a responsibility, i.e., mandatory obligation to vote in any election of any kind and once again that is the way it should be IMO.



> I looked at the recent Canadian citizenship test online ................ far easier than the one I took back in 1997.


Interesting that you should say that as some critics are now complaining that it is far too hard.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Interesting that you should say that as some critics are now complaining that it is far too hard.


I have not heard anyone say it was getting "too hard". All I can say is that compared to the one I took in 1997, the one from a year or two ago, which was published online as a practice form, was far easier. C'est la vie. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

‘Shocking’ poll signals PCs and Wildrose in dead heat | Calgary Herald

I find this VERY hard to believe.


----------



## SINC

I don't. People are really pissed with the PCs and even more so by protecting business and taxing average Albertans when they could have avoided it. Prentice is not well liked by most. He talks one thing and does another and it may cost him his government.


----------



## Rps

Ms. Smith may regret the long walk don't you think Sinc. Is she done politically in Alberta having lost the PC nom and I am sure the Wild Rose has excommunicated.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I have not heard anyone say it was getting "too hard". All I can say is that compared to the one I took in 1997, the one from a year or two ago, which was published online as a practice form, was far easier. C'est la vie. Paix, mon ami.


There was a report on it just the other day on CBC1 saying that it was too hard for people coming from certain countries to become citizens... Fancy that coming from the CBC, in their opinion we should let everyone who applies for citizenship to become citizens... more tax dollars that may help them to survive.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> I don't. People are really pissed with the PCs and even more so by protecting business and taxing average Albertans when they could have avoided it. Prentice is not well liked by most. He talks one thing and does another and it may cost him his government.


That is too bad. I liked Prentice as a Federal Minister.

I actually thought one day he might take a run at the Federal Leadership after Harper had his day, I thought he would have been a good candidate back then.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Ms. Smith may regret the long walk don't you think Sinc. Is she done politically in Alberta having lost the PC nom and I am sure the Wild Rose has excommunicated.


The smell of burnt toast hangs heavily in the air in Danielle's case, Rp. Or stick a fork in her, she's done. Whichever metaphor you prefer.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> That is too bad. I liked Prentice as a Federal Minister.
> 
> I actually thought one day he might take a run at the Federal Leadership after Harper had his day, I thought he would have been a good candidate back then.


He is not too bright IMHO. He could have raised taxes on business by 1% and raised the identical revenue. Instead he chose to tax our gas, reinstate health care premiums and increase sin taxes by 35% for traffic infractions and 9% on booze and cigs.

Placing the burden on low income Albertans is a huge political snafu.

And then of course, there are the oil royalties that were also left untouched, that a percentage point would have solved it all.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> I don't. People are really pissed with the PCs and even more so by protecting business and taxing average Albertans when they could have avoided it. Prentice is not well liked by most. He talks one thing and does another and it may cost him his government.


I still find it amazing to think that there would be a non-Conservative government in Alberta. There has been one ever since I first came to Canada. I always felt that Peter Lougheed was one of the best premiers of a Canadian province in my 38 years here in Canada.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> There was a report on it just the other day on CBC1 saying that it was too hard for people coming from certain countries to become citizens... Fancy that coming from the CBC, in their opinion we should let everyone who applies for citizenship to become citizens... more tax dollars that may help them to survive.


The test to see if you are able to communicate in either English or French has been "dumbed down" from what I was told by a few recent immigrants who became citizens. I had to explain what the various rights and responsibilities of Canadian citizens were, and what it actually meant. Now, they are asked the colors of the Canadian flag and what the leaf in the center of the flag means/represents.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> That is too bad. I liked Prentice as a Federal Minister.
> 
> I actually thought one day he might take a run at the Federal Leadership after Harper had his day, I thought he would have been a good candidate back then.


I liked him as well, and saw him as a potential leader once PM Harper called it quits.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> That is too bad. I liked Prentice as a Federal Minister.
> 
> I actually thought one day he might take a run at the Federal Leadership after Harper had his day, I thought he would have been a good candidate back then.





Dr.G. said:


> I liked him as well, and saw him as a potential leader once PM Harper called it quits.


If he keeps making the same kinds of political mistakes here, his ambitions in Ottawa if he has any, will suffer as well.


----------



## Rps

Dr. G, i think no matter who wins between the PCs and Wild Rose, they will be a conservative government ... Maybe the Wild Rose will truly be a Progressive Conservative government ..... Now if the Liberals won, yeah .... The earth would shake.

As for Prentice, he appeared to raise taxes while not cutting budgets, read salaries.

As for Lougheed, nice press but I think he almost spent Alberta into bankrupcy ....


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Dr. G, i think no matter who wins between the PCs and Wild Rose, they will be a conservative government ... Maybe the Wild Rose will truly be a Progressive Conservative government ..... Now if the Liberals won, yeah .... The earth would shake.
> 
> As for Prentice, he appeared to raise taxes while not cutting budgets, read salaries.
> 
> As for Lougheed, nice press but I think he almost spent Alberta into bankrupcy ....


Interesting perspective, Rp. My wife, who is from Alberta, said that the NDP actually is stronger than the Liberals in AB.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Dr. G, i think no matter who wins between the PCs and Wild Rose, they will be a conservative government ... Maybe the Wild Rose will truly be a Progressive Conservative government ..... Now if the Liberals won, yeah .... The earth would shake.
> 
> As for Prentice, he appeared to raise taxes while not cutting budgets, read salaries.
> 
> *As for Lougheed, nice press but I think he almost spent Alberta into bankrupcy ....*


Ah... no that would have been because of PET and the NEP. PET single-handily created a secessionist movement in Alberta and inflamed secessionist desires in Quebec... quite the legacy.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Ah... no that would have been because of PET and the NEP. PET single-handily created a secessionist movement in Alberta and inflamed secessionist desires in Quebec... quite the legacy.


No question the NEP was ugly, no one liked it, especially Albertans. But it was a time of unrest ... especially when you consider the "oil crisis" at the time and the Iranian issues. In truth, no one won but the oil companies. 

Screature the NEP lasted what.... 5 years. Was it Mulroney who killed it, I can't remember?

As for Lougheed, I still think ( much like Prentice today ) he spent more than he should have during that period. The trouble with a resource based economy is that it is feast or famine ... In some respect Harper is suffering from this now with his bet on oil prices, however he has raised the deficit amounts almost 4 times what the prior Liberal government has spent..... It may be his undoing.


----------



## Macfury

It was a time of unrest and PET fomented that unrest. 



Rps said:


> No question the NEP was ugly, no one liked it, especially Albertans. But it was a time of unrest ... especially when you consider the "oil crisis" at the time and the Iranian issues. In truth, no one won but the oil companies.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *It was a time of unrest and PET fomented that unrest*.


He *created *it in the West.

He fomented it in Quebec and to a lesser degree in the rest of Canada.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> No question the NEP was ugly, no one liked it, especially Albertans. But it was a time of unrest ... especially when you consider the "oil crisis" at the time and the Iranian issues. In truth, no one won but the oil companies.
> 
> *Screature the NEP lasted what.... 5 years. Was it Mulroney who killed it, I can't remember?*
> 
> As for Lougheed, I still think ( much like Prentice today ) he spent more than he should have during that period. The trouble with a resource based economy is that it is feast or famine ... In some respect Harper is suffering from this now with his bet on oil prices, however he has raised the deficit amounts almost 4 times what the prior Liberal government has spent..... It may be his undoing.


Albertan's sure can... it sticks in their craw to this day, over 40 years later.

Let there be no mistake. PET ruled this country with an iron fist, unlike anyone who came before him or since, even Harper.

Our country was, as far as he was concerned, his public policy playground to with whatever he wanted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeTsQQ22Uwc
*
Imagine Harper saying that today!!!*

And these words being said by a "so called" liberal, more like a totalitarian dictator!


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> And these words being said by a "so called" liberal, more like a totalitarian dictator!


Liberals might accept it today, if the words were uttered by Justin Trudeau and an "acceptable" group was targeted.


----------



## CubaMark

*Well, that was nice of Putin.... *










*Canadians Evacuated From Yemen, Government Confirms*

_The federal government is confirming that an undisclosed number of Canadians have been taken out of Yemen, amid Russian state media reports that the Kremlin had helped them leave.

Foreign Affairs spokesman John Babcock said in an email on Saturday they are aware that Canadians departed from Yemen safely.

Russian news agency TASS reported Friday that two Russian planes brought 284 people from Yemen to Moscow on Thursday including Canadian and Polish citizens.

China's Xinhua news agency reported Saturday that a Chinese warship took some 225 foreign nationals out of Yemen including one Canadian and took them to Djibouti in East Africa.

Babcock would not confirm Russian involvement, but said Canada's ability to provide any consular assistance in Yemen is "extremely limited."

Babcock also said Foreign Affairs has been advising Canadians against all travel to Yemen since 2008.

It's estimated more than 500 people have been killed in Yemen in the past two weeks amid fighting between government forces and Shiite rebels.

The reported Russian assistance to Canadians in Yemen comes amid recent tensions between Canada and Russia over the conflict in the Ukraine._

(HuffPo)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Well, that was nice of Putin.... *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Canadians Evacuated From Yemen, Government Confirms*
> 
> _The federal government is confirming that an undisclosed number of Canadians have been taken out of Yemen, amid Russian state media reports that the Kremlin had helped them leave.
> 
> Foreign Affairs spokesman John Babcock said in an email on Saturday they are aware that Canadians departed from Yemen safely.
> 
> Russian news agency TASS reported Friday that two Russian planes brought 284 people from Yemen to Moscow on Thursday including Canadian and Polish citizens.
> 
> China's Xinhua news agency reported Saturday that a Chinese warship took some 225 foreign nationals out of Yemen including one Canadian and took them to Djibouti in East Africa.
> 
> Babcock would not confirm Russian involvement, but said Canada's ability to provide any consular assistance in Yemen is "extremely limited."
> 
> Babcock also said Foreign Affairs has been advising Canadians against all travel to Yemen since 2008.
> 
> It's estimated more than 500 people have been killed in Yemen in the past two weeks amid fighting between government forces and Shiite rebels.
> 
> The reported Russian assistance to Canadians in Yemen comes amid recent tensions between Canada and Russia over the conflict in the Ukraine._
> 
> (HuffPo)


Ahh now doesn't that feel all nice warm and cozy... 

Let's all hug a baby seal now.... Or maybe a North Korean, Syrian or Iranian etc., etc., etc...


----------



## screature




----------



## CubaMark

*Two federal cabinet ministers announce departure from politics*

Two more cabinet ministers in the Harper government have signalled they’re heading for the exits as the clock ticks down to the next federal election.

Heritage Minister Shelly Glover and International Development Minister Christian Paradis both chose the Good Friday holiday to announce they’re preparing to leave politics.

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair is calling the new cabinet roles of Jason Kenney, Rob Nicholson and Pierre Poilievre "bizarre" and "surprising." The shuffle comes after the departure of former foreign affairs minister John Baird.

The timing meant they didn’t have to run a gauntlet of media and explain why they are bowing out when there’s a little more than six months left before an expected federal ballot.

They both cited personal reasons.

Ms. Glover and Mr. Paradis will remain in cabinet until the election but will not seek another term in office.

There has now been three retirement announcements in the Harper cabinet in 60 days.​
(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

Guess this is big news--to Mulcair, where his shadow critics haven't spent any time under the spotlight of governing. The ministers are retiring from their positions because they have no desire to serve under the media gaze for another four years.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Guess this is big news--to Mulcair, where his shadow critics haven't spent any time under the spotlight of governing. The ministers are retiring from their positions because they have no desire to serve under the media gaze for another four years.


In Glover's case, she always said that her foray into politics was temporary. She still is officially employed by Winnipeg Police Department, on a leave of absence. Ten years is a long leave of absence, she's ready to go back to work. 

She will be missed greatly, she was the best MP her riding ever had, one of the hardest working people you'll ever meet. Constituents in the surrounding NDP and Liberal held ridings regularly called Glover when they needed anything done, because their MPs simply never got off their asses.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Guess this is big news--to Mulcair, where his shadow critics haven't spent any time under the spotlight of governing. The ministers are retiring from their positions because they have no desire to serve under the media gaze for another four years.


Not to be cynical, but just a reality, they can collect their pensions earlier if they retire now under the old rules, 55 as opposed to 65 when the new rules kick in after the election.

This may be their "personal" reasons and I don't blame them. If they think they might loose their seat, relatively speaking to those that came before them, they have served their time and endured all the sacrifices to family life and personal health that the 24/7/365 hours of an MP entails.... At least for those that are doing their jobs unlike some of those in the opposition:

Conservatives top list of MPs with best attendance records for House of Commons votes in 2014




> OTTAWA — Conservative members of Parliament have topped the list of those with the best attendance for votes in the House of Commons in 2014, while some Independent and former Bloc Québécois MPs were absent the most.
> 
> Former New Democrat and now-Independent MP Sana Hassainia — who quit the NDP caucus in August over what she said was the party’s excessively pro-Israel position and its demands to toe the party line — had the worst voting attendance record by far, showing up for 16 of 269 votes (6%) in 2014.
> 
> A handful of prominent MPs, such as Liberal Irwin Cotler and New Democrat Peter Stoffer, missed more than half the votes in the House of Commons in 2014; they said it was largely due to international and domestic parliamentary missions as part of their official critic roles.
> 
> An Ottawa Citizen analysis of voting records shows nine of the top 10 MPs who showed up for votes in 2014 were Conservatives, including five Tories who were present for all 269 votes last year and another four government MPs who missed only one vote...


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada sells final GM stake ahead of budget*

Canada's government is selling its final stake in General Motors, worth about $US2.7 billion ($3.5 billion), as Prime Minister Stephen Harper seeks new funding to meet pre-election promises amid an oil rout.

Canada has agreed to sell its 73.4 million shares to Goldman Sachs in an unregistered block trade, the finance department said in a statement Monday. The transaction will be complete by April 10.

The proceeds will help Mr Harper stick to his promise of balancing the budget this fiscal year even as he delivers tax cuts and transfer payments ahead of a general election in October. Falling oil prices means annual revenue will be on average $C7.6 billion ($8 billion) less than forecast by the government in November, according to the parliamentary budget office.

"Our investment in GM was always meant to be temporary," Joe Oliver, Canada's Minister of Finance, said in an e-mailed statement. "We never believed the government should be a shareholder of a private-sector company for an indefinite period of time."

At Monday's closing price of $US36.66, those shares would be worth about $US2.69 billion. The finance department didn't say how much it will raise from the transaction or how the proceeds will be budgeted.

(More at: Australia Financial Review)


----------



## Macfury

Glad to see them dump those money-losing GM shares. That company should have disappeared.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Glad to see them dump those money-losing GM shares. That company should have disappeared.


"money-losing" ?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> "money-losing" ?


Yes. The initial shares in GM cost the Canadian government between $50 and $60 each.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Yes. The initial shares in GM cost the Canadian government between $50 and $60 each.


You do realise that if the government did not intervene the cost to Canadian Taxpayers would have been 10 times that amount!


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> You do realise that if the government did not intervene the cost to Canadian Taxpayers would have been 10 times that amount!


Please elucidate.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Please elucidate.


The bankrupcy of GM, and yes Chrysler, would have created close to 15,000 direct unemployed, devestate the Tier 1, 2, 3 industries as well as all the fringe employees. So it was not just Car company employees, but those who work in coffee shops, Walmarts, grocery stores .... As well as the cost for the underfunded pensions many of those employees would soon learn they had. Financial markets would have driven fiats into the ground and mutuals would probably collapse.


----------



## heavyall

Rps said:


> The bankrupcy of GM, and yes Chrysler, would have created close to 15,000 direct unemployed, devestate the Tier 1, 2, 3 industries as well as all the fringe employees. So it was not just Car company employees, but those who work in coffee shops, Walmarts, grocery stores .... As well as the cost for the underfunded pensions many of those employees would soon learn they had. Financial markets would have driven fiats into the ground and mutuals would probably collapse.


Prove that any of that would have been the only possible scenario without government intervention. There are many other car companies, and millions of Canadians who drive them. It's just as likely that some other company would have bought them ( and in some cases, they actually did), and built their cars here.


----------



## Macfury

Would, woulda, woulda...

Methinks you've lived in the Windsor area too long to see the bigger picture.

The same could be said of any large manufacturing industry that has already disappeared. Apply your argument to Hamilton's steel industry or Nova Scotia's boat-building industry and you can just as easily invoke the holy "multiplier" effect.

It was time for GM and yes Chrysler to sink or swim as consumers chose to eliminate them, while management and the CAW pretended it was 1965. Losing hurts and propping up a loser so it could funnel more jobs to China and Mexico was not a victory.



Rps said:


> The bankrupcy of GM, and yes Chrysler, would have created close to 15,000 direct unemployed, devestate the Tier 1, 2, 3 industries as well as all the fringe employees. So it was not just Car company employees, but those who work in coffee shops, Walmarts, grocery stores .... As well as the cost for the underfunded pensions many of those employees would soon learn they had. Financial markets would have driven fiats into the ground and mutuals would probably collapse.


----------



## Rps

Heavy all, I have been down this discussion road before. Do not take my reply as a challenge for I don't mean it, but I have been in the car industry for 30 plus years .... No one would have come here. Our entire market is less than the state of California, and with NAFTA, you wouldn't need one molecule from Canada in the vehicle or parts to sell here if the products came from the U.S. Or Mexico. So no, there would be no white knight, just unemployment.


----------



## Macfury

So your defense is simply that the Canadian bail-out was necessary, because the Canadian auto industry is redundant, uncompetitive and unnecessary?



Rps said:


> Heavy all, I have been down this discussion road before. Do not take my reply as a challenge for I don't mean it, but I have been in the car industry for 30 plus years .... No one would have come here. Our entire market is less than the state of California, and with NAFTA, you wouldn't need one molecule from Canada in the vehicle or parts to sell here if the products came from the U.S. Or Mexico. So no, there would be no white knight, just unemployment.


----------



## heavyall

Rps said:


> Heavy all, I have been down this discussion road before. Do not take my reply as a challenge for I don't mean it, but I have been in the car industry for 30 plus years .... No one would have come here. Our entire market is less than the state of California, and with NAFTA, you wouldn't need one molecule from Canada in the vehicle or parts to sell here if the products came from the U.S. Or Mexico. So no, there would be no white knight, just unemployment.


You are aware that other companies do make cars in Canada, right? Or that Chrysler was sold TWICE to European car mfrs? That cars being sent to the european market are being manufactured in Canada right now? That there were other offers on the table for Canadian and Asian companies to take over some of the American car brands-- offers that those companies turned down because they didn't REALLY need to be bailed out as badly as they tried to claim.

If unemployment was the only other option, those companies would never have been building cars here in the first place.


----------



## Macfury

Or that at least $1 billion of the Canadian bailout was sent to the parent company in the US and that at least a half billion was unaccounted for. Or that the Auditor General reported that:

"...Industry Canada does not know to what extent the billions of dollars in loans to GM Canada and Chrysler Canada contributed to the viability of the companies."



heavyall said:


> You are aware that other companies do make cars in Canada, right? Or that Chrysler was sold TWICE to European car mfrs? That cars being sent to the european market are being manufactured in Canada right now? That there were other offers on the table for Canadian and Asian companies to take over some of the American car brands-- offers that those companies turned down because they didn't REALLY need to be bailed out as badly as they tried to claim.
> 
> If unemployment was the only other option, those companies would never have been building cars here in the first place.


----------



## Rps

Gentlemen, we will have to agree to disagree here.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Glad to see them dump those money-losing GM shares. That company should have disappeared.


Agreed. The Government of Canada should not be involved in the long term investment of one public company or the other, better get out while the getting is good.

Recoup your bailout investment and be done with it. Period.

It was *always* meant to be a temporary measure which could end at any point in time... those that don't realize or understand that need some schooling in public policy in terms of what *temporary *means.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Gentlemen, we will have to agree to disagree here.


Indeed we will as it seems your point of view is that the bailout of the automotive industry by the Government of Canada should have lasted basically.... well forever.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Indeed we will as it seems your point of view is that the bailout of the automotive industry by the Government of Canada should have lasted basically.... well forever.


Screature, not really. I don't think my post was intended to mean a permanent investment. I'm fine with the share selling .... How else will the Harper Government meet its deficit numbers. But 2016 would have been a better time frame.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Screature, not really. I don't think my post was intended to mean a permanent investment. I'm fine with the share selling .... How else will the Harper Government meet its deficit numbers. But 2016 would have been a better time frame.


Better for what? The exchange rate seems to favour a quick sale.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Better for what? The exchange rate seems to favour a quick sale.


In a word : Contract.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> In a word : Contract.


Sorry, I'm not getting you.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Screature, not really. I don't think my post was intended to mean a permanent investment. I'm fine with the share selling .... How else will the Harper Government meet its deficit numbers. But 2016 would have been a better time frame.


Truthfully the supply of OEM smoke is too limited and Oliver has broken too many mirrors for the cons to be honestly able to balance the budget this year. The sale of Chryco and GM is a one time event that will at best only slightly offset the bleeding.

Another big factor here is Harpo's commitment to fighting ISIS witches in closets throughout the Middle East. That sort of military adventurism always costs at least 10 times the government estimates. If the goal is to further destabilize the region (presumably to bring oil prices back to their former artificial high), then Harpo is almost guaranteed success. If the goal is stability in the region this is a huge leap in the wrong direction.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> The bankrupcy of GM, and yes Chrysler, would have created close to 15,000 direct unemployed, devestate the Tier 1, 2, 3 industries as well as all the fringe employees. So it was not just Car company employees, but those who work in coffee shops, Walmarts, grocery stores .... As well as the cost for the underfunded pensions many of those employees would soon learn they had. Financial markets would have driven fiats into the ground and mutuals would probably collapse.


Thx for the reply. I just wanted to confirm that was what you meant.

IMHO, the gov't should not be in the business of deciding which companies survive & which ones do not. Those that do not & are viable will be taken over by someone else, piecemeal or otherwise. Those which are not viable were on borrowed time anyways, good luck & good riddance.

Where do you draw the line? If 15,000 jobs are worth saving, how about 1500? 150? 15? Why or why not? Who makes that decision & on what is it based? Screw that, let the market decide.

Let's be honest with ourselves here. GM & Chrysler aren't exactly bastions of financial responsibility. Why, after they've pissed away millions of dollars, should they be the ones bailed out? As a small business owner, I'd love to have that sort of insurance policy backing me. Unfortunately, it ain't gonna happen, even though I'm far more responsible with my finances than GM & Chrysler will ever be.

Although 15,000 job losses is sizeable, it's not insurmountable. Many of those would have been restored as GM/Chrysler were bought out.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Why, after they've pissed away millions of dollars, should they be the ones bailed out? As a small business owner, I'd love to have that sort of insurance policy backing me. Unfortunately, it ain't gonna happen, even though I'm far more responsible with my finances than GM & Chrysler will ever be.


Exactly. Any company can be kept alive by draining all of its value held by shareholders, then having its debt financed by Canadian citizens who wouldn't dream of buying even a single share of the company.


----------



## Macfury

Mike Duffy: What was he thinking with these weak defenses?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Mike Duffy: What was he thinking with these weak defenses?


Actually, they are not so weak. I have worked in the Risk Management business for a number of years and in many cases problems occur because procedures are written by the process owners .... That includes all loop holes.


----------



## Macfury

I'll put money on a conviction. 



Rps said:


> Actually, they are not so weak. I have worked in the Risk Management business for a number of years and in many cases problems occur because procedures are written by the process owners .... That includes all loop holes.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I'll put money on a conviction.


Political or Fraud ...... Although there may be little difference.


----------



## Macfury

Fraud. Tim Harper nailed it:



> Duffy, the newly minted senator, may have sprinted to the trough, but the lack of Senate accountability smoothed the journey.


----------



## Dr.G.

Stephen Harper shakes Raul Castro's hand at Summit of the Americas - Politics - CBC News

Détente all around.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> I'll put money on a conviction.


I wouldn't. More and more, it looks to me as though he's going to get off. What he did was morally wrong, but still within the rules. I think that's why he was confident in trying to shakedown the government -- he knew as distasteful as his expense claims were, that he had received approval, and even sought clarification that what he was going to do was allowed.

It's awful, but I really think that all we are going to get out of this is pressure on the senate to reform their rules so that this can't happen any more.


----------



## Macfury

Kathleen Wynne adds $1 billion to the price of Ontario consumer goods.

Wynne unveils Ontario's plan to join emissions cap-and-trade system - The Globe and Mail

What a progressive idiot. Cap and trade is in freefall around the world.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Kathleen Wynne adds $1 billion to the price of Ontario consumer goods.
> 
> Wynne unveils Ontario's plan to join emissions cap-and-trade system - The Globe and Mail
> 
> What a progressive idiot. Cap and trade is in freefall around the world.


Another half billion in the Gore Vault, zero change in emissions.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Another half billion in the Gore Vault, zero change in emissions.


It's being rushed in as a stealth tax to staunch the flood of red ink from her decimation of the Ontario budget. The old fool can't stop spending.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It's being rushed in as a stealth tax to staunch the flood of red ink from her decimation of the Ontario budget. The old fool can't stop spending.


Ahh the headline was somewhat misleading. We are talking carbon tax. Proceeds go directly to banksters. It cannot be otherwise while the province is in debt. Ordinary citizens may not pass GO and under no circumstances shall they collect $200.

Seriously the admin costs of such a nightmare approach will devour every dime taken in. There will be nothing left to promote projects which may be misrepresented as being green.


----------



## Macfury

I agree with this:

Supreme Court of Canada strikes down mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes | CTV London News

I don't believe choice of weapon is relevant in sentencing--it is the result of the crime that's important..


----------



## Rps

I do to a certain extent, as well.

Just a question, can we still do polls here on ehMac, I can't seem to locate where to create one, thoughts?


----------



## Macfury

Posting a poll requires creating a new thread.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> I do to a certain extent, as well.
> 
> Just a question, can we still do polls here on ehMac, I can't seem to locate where to create one, thoughts?


Start a new thread and use this box in red:


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> I agree with this:
> 
> Supreme Court of Canada strikes down mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes | CTV London News
> 
> I don't believe choice of weapon is relevant in sentencing--it is the result of the crime that's important..


I stridently disagree. Strong laws regarding using weapons in the commission of crimes is exactly what we should be doing, instead of further restricting them from law abiding citizens.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I stridently disagree. Strong laws regarding using weapons in the commission of crimes is exactly what we should be doing, instead of further restricting them from law abiding citizens.


What about this for-instance? A woman kills her cheating spouse with a gun that she is legally entitled to carry. Another woman across town bludgeons her cheating spouse to death. Circumstances are identical in both cases, except for the choice of death weapon. 

A minimum sentence for the first killer, and open sentencing for the second?


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> What about this for-instance? A woman kills her cheating spouse with a gun that she is legally entitled to carry. Another woman across town bludgeons her cheating spouse to death. Circumstances are identical in both cases, except for the choice of death weapon.
> 
> A minimum sentence for the first killer, and open sentencing for the second?


BOTH should have minimum sentences, the one using the gun should just be much stronger.


----------



## Macfury

The gun question is really sort of moot in that case. The question is whether one believes in minimum sentencing at all.



heavyall said:


> BOTH should have minimum sentences, the one using the gun should just be much stronger.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> The gun question is really sort of moot in that case. The question is whether one believes in minimum sentencing at all.


Minimum sentences are the only way to protect society from activists judges, like the ones we have on the SCC right now.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> What about this for-instance? A woman kills her cheating spouse with a gun that she is legally entitled to carry. Another woman across town bludgeons her cheating spouse to death. Circumstances are identical in both cases, except for the choice of death weapon.
> 
> A minimum sentence for the first killer, and open sentencing for the second?


I find that an interesting f'instance.

I'm not sure if there is common ground, punishment-wise, between the two or not.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I find that an interesting f'instance.
> 
> I'm not sure if there is common ground, punishment-wise, between the two or not.


I simply don't see the choice of weapon as relevant. If the person is illegally carrying a gun, add that to the charge of murder.


----------



## CubaMark

*Province to sell 60% of Hydro One, use proceeds for transit and infrastructure*








Ontario's Liberal government plans to sell off 60 per cent of Hydro One, the province's huge transmission utility, to help pay for new transit and infrastructure projects.

The Canadian Press has learned the province will retain a 40 per cent stake in Hydro One, and no minority shareholder will be able to buy more than 10 per cent of the company.

Government sources say Hydro One's local distribution arm and Hydro One Brampton will be sold as a separate company.

The opposition parties warn a sale of Hydro One will drive up electricity prices, something the Liberals warned would happen when the Tories wanted to privatize it in 2002.

Premier Kathleen Wynne said Wednesday that the government would retain majority ownership and would make sure consumers are protected against price hikes.​
(CTV)


----------



## Macfury

Only one question--why is the province holding a 40 per cent stake? Their malfeasance has driven up electricity prices beyond belief.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Only one question--why is the province holding a 40 per cent stake? Their malfeasance has driven up electricity prices beyond belief.


Easy to say until you have lived through the hell that was Alberta privatizing their utilities. Far from prices going down they have more than trebled since the sell-off. Now Albertans are getting another surcharge. This one to build new transmission lines. The purpose of these lines is to sell electricity to BC, Montana and Idaho. No other possible reason for the routes they are proposing.

Let the potential buyers pay for those $#(!#6 transmission lines and let them pay the premium to run them underground. This part of the world is way too pretty to mar the landscape in such a manner.


----------



## Macfury

Under the current government regime they are predicted to more than double in five years after doubling in recent years. I'm not worried that it will get worse.



eMacMan said:


> Easy to say until you have lived through the hell that was Alberta privatizing their utilities. Far from prices going down they have more than trebled since the sell-off. Now Albertans are getting another surcharge. This one to build new transmission lines. The purpose of these lines is to sell electricity to BC, Montana and Idaho. No other possible reason for the routes they are proposing.
> 
> Let the potential buyers pay for those $#(!#6 transmission lines and let them pay the premium to run them underground. This part of the world is way too pretty to mar the landscape in such a manner.


----------



## heavyall

> Ontario's Liberal government plans to *sell off 60 per cent of Hydro One*, the province's huge transmission utility, to help pay for new transit and infrastructure projects.
> 
> The Canadian Press has learned the *province will retain a 40 per cent stake in Hydro One*, and no minority shareholder will be able to buy more than 10 per cent of the company.
> 
> Government sources say Hydro One's local distribution arm and Hydro One Brampton will be sold as a separate company.
> 
> The opposition parties warn a sale of Hydro One will drive up electricity prices, something the Liberals warned would happen when the Tories wanted to privatize it in 2002.
> 
> Premier Kathleen *Wynne said Wednesday that the government would retain majority ownership* and would make sure consumers are protected against price hikes.


Selling 60%, only keeping 40, but believing she's keeping a majority. Wynne's budgeting acumen in a nutshell right there.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Selling 60%, only keeping 40, but believing she's keeping a majority. Wynne's budgeting acumen in a nutshell right there.


Wynne's own policies as Energy Minister led to massive price hikes that were predictable. She not only has no interest in preventing price hikes, she simply doesn't care. The poor fool thinks that limiting ownership shares to 10 per cent will keep the other shareholdes from ganging up on her.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Selling 60%, only keeping 40, but believing she's keeping a majority. Wynne's budgeting acumen in a nutshell right there.


Actually, heavyall, she is. The terms of sale allow no other shareholder to purchase more than 10%. I suppose theoretically the other 60% of shareholders could force an agenda, but from what (little) I've read, this is the idea.

I'm not a fan of privatization carte blanche (I won't shut the door completely). I don't believe essential services - like electricity - should ever be in the hands of private, profit-seeking enterprise. The Nova Scotia example certainly did not result in any kind of deal to citizens of the province when NSPower was given away to friends and family of the provincial Progressive Conservative party. Perhaps the Ontario Liberals saw what happened down our way, and decided to attempt a different path that would still bring in some revenues, but not surrender control whole-hog to the private sector.

*EDIT: *Sorry, MF - didn't see that you had also clarified the 10% ownership angle.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Actually, heavyall, she is.


40% is not a majority, no matter what the other restrictions might be.


----------



## eMacMan

Easy enough for 6 shell companies owned by the same mega corp to gobble up the entire 60%.


----------



## FeXL

Far as I'm concerned, they could have shortened the headline to just the first 4 words... 

Trudeau the big loser in ugly Toronto riding fight?: Hepburn



> Justin Trudeau isn’t running for the Liberal nomination in the Toronto riding of Eglinton-Lawrence, but he may ultimately be the big loser in the race.
> 
> The other loser in what is shaping up as a bitter party contest could be Eve Adams, the controversial federal MP who Trudeau enthusiastically welcomed to the Liberal fold in February when she jumped from the Conservatives.
> 
> Adams, who currently represents Mississauga-Brampton South riding, is in a tough fight for the nomination with Marco Mendicino, a lawyer whose family has lived in the riding for decades and who has been actively campaigning since last summer.
> 
> *The race is rife with whispers — all unproven — of dirty tricks, “instant Liberals” with no ties to the party and $10 membership fees being paid by others.*


M'bold.

None of this would surprise me.


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau said he would be transparent--and he most certainly is. What an embarrassment. 



FeXL said:


> None of this would surprise me.


----------



## Macfury

Where's skippy when the good news arrives?

Trudeau (30%) Tumbles (-12) among Canadians' Choice for Best Prime Minister as Harper (38%) Ascends (+3) and Mulcair (31%) Climbs (+7) | Ipsos



> Prime Minister Stephen Harper has once again reclaimed top spot as the party leader that Canadians say would make the “best prime minister” — a position he hasn’t held since Justin Trudeau was elected leader of the Liberals. Moreover, according to the new Ipsos poll conducted on behalf of Global News, Prime Minister Harper has reclaimed the lead on most of the eleven leadership attributes tested in the poll.
> 
> In contrast, recognition for Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau as the choice of “best prime minister” for Canada has tumbled significantly along with ten of eleven other leadership attributes tested, as NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair’s rising leadership qualities have eclipsed the falling star in many cases.
> 
> Thinking about which of the major federal party leaders would make the best Prime Minister of Canada, 38% choose Stephen Harper (up 3 points from 35% in September of 2014), while NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair (31%, up 7 points from 24%) and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau (30%, down 12 points from 42%) are now statistically tied.


----------



## FeXL

He's over reading CM's renewable power report...


----------



## CubaMark

*How do ehMacers feel about this bit of news?*

*Could armed U.S. border guards be coming to Union Station?*

Armed U.S. border guards could soon be posted to Union Station — and if they ever use their guns, they may not be held accountable in a Canadian court.

A border preclearance agreement signed last month by Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney and U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson allows for armed American border guards to be posted to any port, ferry terminal, land crossing or rail station to clear goods and passengers through customs and immigration before they cross the border.

While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers now preclear passengers at eight Canadian airports including Pearson, only police may carry firearms in airports, so border agents stationed there aren’t armed. The deal is promoted as a measure to facilitate trade and benefit the economy on both sides of the border, but critics say little notice has been taken of the clause that grants U.S. agents immunity from Canadian prosecution.

“If U.S. government agents who are on duty on Canadian soil are only going to be liable to be prosecuted in the United States for potential criminal acts in Canada, what does that mean for access to justice for people affected by those actions?”​
(TorontoStar)


----------



## Macfury

Not enough info to go on yet. I would prefer that Canadian courts hold border guards responsible, however.



CubaMark said:


> *How do ehMacers feel about this bit of news?*
> 
> *Could armed U.S. border guards be coming to Union Station?*
> 
> Armed U.S. border guards could soon be posted to Union Station — and if they ever use their guns, they may not be held accountable in a Canadian court.
> 
> A border preclearance agreement signed last month by Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney and U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson allows for armed American border guards to be posted to any port, ferry terminal, land crossing or rail station to clear goods and passengers through customs and immigration before they cross the border.
> 
> While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers now preclear passengers at eight Canadian airports including Pearson, only police may carry firearms in airports, so border agents stationed there aren’t armed. The deal is promoted as a measure to facilitate trade and benefit the economy on both sides of the border, but critics say little notice has been taken of the clause that grants U.S. agents immunity from Canadian prosecution.
> 
> “If U.S. government agents who are on duty on Canadian soil are only going to be liable to be prosecuted in the United States for potential criminal acts in Canada, what does that mean for access to justice for people affected by those actions?”​
> (TorontoStar)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *How do ehMacers feel about this bit of news?*
> 
> *Could armed U.S. border guards be coming to Union Station?*
> Armed U.S. border guards could soon be posted to Union Station — and if they ever use their guns, they may not be held accountable in a Canadian court.
> 
> A border preclearance agreement signed last month by Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney and U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson allows for armed American border guards to be posted to any port, ferry terminal, land crossing or rail station to clear goods and passengers through customs and immigration before they cross the border.
> 
> While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers now preclear passengers at eight Canadian airports including Pearson, only police may carry firearms in airports, so border agents stationed there aren’t armed. The deal is promoted as a measure to facilitate trade and benefit the economy on both sides of the border, but critics say little notice has been taken of the clause that grants U.S. agents immunity from Canadian prosecution.
> 
> “If U.S. government agents who are on duty on Canadian soil are only going to be liable to be prosecuted in the United States for potential criminal acts in Canada, what does that mean for access to justice for people affected by those actions?”​(TorontoStar)


Was this not already passed by stealth two or three years ago, as part of a budget omnibus bill? Seems this is just an extension to airports, of that earlier bill which allowed US law enforcement types free access to arrest US criminals on Canadian soil. Harpo's willingness to surrender Canadian Sovereignty to all comers continues to distress.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> Was this not already passed by stealth two or three years ago, as part of a budget omnibus bill?


Yes, and it came up earlier on ehMac too... but darned if I can find those posts....


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *How do ehMacers feel about this bit of news?*
> 
> *Could armed U.S. border guards be coming to Union Station?*
> 
> Armed U.S. border guards *could* soon be posted to Union Station — and if they ever use their guns, they may not be held accountable in a Canadian court.
> 
> A border preclearance agreement signed last month by Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney and U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson allows for armed American border guards to be posted to any port, ferry terminal, land crossing or rail station to clear goods and passengers through customs and immigration before they cross the border.
> 
> While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers now preclear passengers at eight Canadian airports including Pearson, only police may carry firearms in airports, so border agents stationed there aren’t armed. The deal is promoted as a measure to facilitate trade and benefit the economy on both sides of the border, but critics say little notice has been taken of the clause that grants U.S. agents immunity from Canadian prosecution.
> 
> “If U.S. government agents who are on duty on Canadian soil are only going to be liable to be prosecuted in the United States for potential criminal acts in Canada, what does that mean for access to justice for people affected by those actions?”​
> (TorontoStar)


It is pure speculation at this point.

I will wait until I see the final results so I actually have some facts to go on.

Funny how it is that this is supposed to be considered by some the most secretive Canadian Government in history and yet it seems we know everything about what they plan to do before an official statement is released.

This is the first Canadian Government to have to participate in a Web 2.0 universe. That is just a fact.

Are they doing the best they can do? Probably... It is uncharted territory and I can assure you they work *VERY* hard to navigate it.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Yes, and it came up earlier on ehMac too... but darned if I can find those posts....


That is because the SEARCH function on ehMac has* always* sucked and blowed at the same time.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> It is pure speculation at this point.
> 
> I will wait until I see the final results so I actually have some facts to go on.


Agreed, speculation ...... Last time I looked the word IF did not mean FACT!


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Trudeau said he would be transparent--and he most certainly is. What an embarrassment.


I think Trudeau's and the Liberals biggest problem in Ontario is the Provincial Liberal Party. I have worked many elections where you canvass people and they blend Federal and Provincial laws ..... While I agree, in principle, with the Sex Ed curriculum proposed by the Provincial Liberals, I think there is a spill over to the Federal party .... Especially in ethnic rich ridings such as Toronto. Where new ridings in theory would be ripe for the Liberal taking.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I think Trudeau's and the Liberals biggest problem in Ontario is the Provincial Liberal Party. I have worked many elections where you canvass people and they blend Federal and Provincial laws ..... While I agree, in principle, with the Sex Ed curriculum proposed by the Provincial Liberals, I think there is a spill over to the Federal party .... Especially in ethnic rich ridings such as Toronto. Where new ridings in theory would be ripe for the Liberal taking.


There may be nothing wrong with the Sex Ed curriculum, but Kathleen Wynne delivers it like a martinet. A nasty personality.


----------



## eMacMan

> *How do ehMacers feel about this bit of news?*
> 
> *Could armed U.S. border guards be coming to Union Station?*Armed U.S. border guards could soon be posted to Union Station — and if they ever use their guns, they may not be held accountable in a Canadian court.
> 
> A border preclearance agreement signed last month by Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney and U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson allows for armed American border guards to be posted to any port, ferry terminal, land crossing or rail station to clear goods and passengers through customs and immigration before they cross the border.
> 
> While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers now preclear passengers at eight Canadian airports including Pearson, only police may carry firearms in airports, so border agents stationed there aren’t armed. The deal is promoted as a measure to facilitate trade and benefit the economy on both sides of the border, but critics say little notice has been taken of the clause that grants U.S. agents immunity from Canadian prosecution.
> 
> “If U.S. government agents who are on duty on Canadian soil are only going to be liable to be prosecuted in the United States for potential criminal acts in Canada, what does that mean for access to justice for people affected by those actions?”​





screature said:


> It is pure speculation at this point.
> 
> I will wait until I see the final results so I actually have some facts to go on.
> 
> Funny how it is that this is supposed to be considered by some the most secretive Canadian Government in history and yet it seems we know everything about what they plan to do before an official statement is released.
> 
> This is the first Canadian Government to have to participate in a Web 2.0 universe. That is just a fact.
> 
> Are they doing the best they can do? Probably... It is uncharted territory and I can assure you they work *VERY* hard to navigate it.


The budget omnibus is set for today. Based on past history if Harper intends to sign off on this, it will be buried in a budget omnibus. That way it will not get the amount of debate such a measure deserves, it will get almost zero attention in the news, and all the Cons will have to vote in favour, even those who believe it is a very bad idea.

Of course this may have been a deliberate leak to see how such a measure would fly immediately prior to an election. If so this is the last we will hear of it, until after the election.


----------



## CubaMark

Rabble has put forth arguments against Wynne's privatization plans. Anyone want to offer a point-by-point rebuttal?

Five reasons privatizing Hydro One is a terrible idea | rabble.ca


----------



## Macfury

> 1. Privatization would be a bonanza for Bay Street but bad news for Main Street. A recent article in the Globe and Mail described how Bay Street had scrambled for the estimated $110 million in fees from the last privatization effort in 2002. We can only imagine how much more fees will be some 13 years later.
> 
> That money won't come out of thin air. It would either come out of the pockets of hydro customers through rate increases or revenue losses paid for by all Ontarians through their taxes or public service cuts. Lining the pockets of Bay Street firms isn't a good use of a valuable public asset such as Hydro One.


The gas plant scandal cost Ontarians $1 billion alone and we got nothing for it. If it cost a fraction of that money to privatize, so be it.




> 2. The province's finances will suffer if it privatizes Hydro One. There is a good reason why Bay Street investors are lining up to buy a piece of it: Hydro One's financial statements show earnings of between nine and 11 per cent since its inception. That's a huge return on equity for any investor, so why wouldn't the government keep this Golden Goose for the people of Ontario? Currently that revenue helps pay for hospitals, schools, and other public services. With a sale, Ontarians would lose out on those revenues -- year after year after year. Two academics in law and business, Trebilcock and Melville, have identified that the province would give up far more money in future revenue that it would make from a quick sell-off.


Why are they overcharging 11 per cent for electricity? That's just a stealth tax, not a golden goose. If making a large profit on the backs of taxpayers is a "golden goose" why not have the province go into the pizza business or cell phone service? Answer: because their service is terrible and when they have a chance to make money from anything, they blow it.



> The cost to Ontario's coffers doesn't stop there. Because it is a crown corporation, Hydro One doesn't pay taxes to the federal government, instead, a payment in lieu of taxes is retained by our province. The Wynne government has often lamented that Ontario does not get its fair share of revenue from the federal government, whether it is in the form of transfers, equalization, or access to Employment Insurance. If Hydro One is privatized, even more money will flow to the federal government from Ontario.


Ontario is simply whining. It hardly matters to me whether taxes are provincial or federal. It's mostly money wasted.



> 3. A review of similar privatization schemes in Canada and internationally suggests that privatizing Hydro One will very likely increase rates. Nova Scotia, which privatized its electricity system a generation ago, now has the highest electricity prices in Canada. We know that a private operator will likely borrow money to pay for the purchase and, later, pass that cost onto customers.


Wynne has doubled electricity rates in five years and plans to double them again in another five. The price of electricity has never been a concern to them. I should be afraid of the private sector?



> Because a private corporation is profit-oriented, it won't discriminate between high-income and low-income hydro consumers -- everyone will pay more while receiving fewer public services because of lost revenues to Ontario.


They don't care about prices now! The province can subsidize the bills of low income citizens if it wants,



> 4. Innovation will suffer. Ontario Hydro has been used with modest success as a public policy tool to promote industrial development, to cushion the impact of rising rates on consumers, and to green our economy. For example, in recent years Hydro One has been directed by government to prioritize the infrastructure investments required to enable renewable electricity sources. A profit-driven private entity would not have made these green choices when other infrastructure investments would have offered higher return on investment.


Please end it! This "green" initiative is what is making Ontario unproductive and uncompetitive. These decisions have been punishing the citizens and businesses of Ontario for a decade.



> 5. Ontario's track record with partial privatizations doesn't inspire confidence. The eHealth scandal resulted in $16 million dollars of untendered contracts going to consultants, along with extravagant pay hikes and bonuses. The ORNGE ambulance scandal was accompanied by enormous salaries, corruption, and failures in delivering vital public services.


This is how Wynne and company run _everything_. Better to take the hit of an incompetent privatization once and end the ongoing malfeasance at HydroOne.



> In her first budget with a majority mandate, Premier Wynne had the opportunity to set a very different path for the province's finances. She could have increased taxes to pay for the infrastructure investment Ontario so badly needs. Instead, she chose a route that will result in future generations paying for her short-term political gains.


We don't need tax hikes. If we really need the infrastructure investment, sell it all off to pay for it. Not 40%, but 100%.



CubaMark said:


> Rabble has put forth arguments against Wynne's privatization plans. Anyone want to offer a point-by-point rebuttal?
> 
> Five reasons privatizing Hydro One is a terrible idea | rabble.ca


----------



## CubaMark

No budget discussion today? 

*Some of the reaction:*



> *Meanwhile in Canada* ‏@MeanwhileinCana
> _If Harper had hung onto GM shares until today, they'd have sold for $100M more. Optics before fiscal responsibility. #CdnPoli #Budget2015_






























*Surplus depends on EI fund cash*



> This year’s razor-thin budget surplus hinges on $1.8 billion in borrowed revenue from the employment insurance fund.
> 
> The Chretien, Martin and Harper governments had previously raided the EI fund for a combined $57 billion to cut deficits and balance the books.
> 
> But the Conservatives promise they will make up the money later and say, ultimately, not a penny will be taken out of the fund.
> 
> This year, the EI fund will come into balance and then some, as premiums will outpace costs by $1.8 billion. Because EI funding comes out of general revenue, that money goes straight onto the books and more than accounts for the $1.4 billion projected surplus.
> 
> The fund becomes even more lucrative next year because it will bring in $3.8 billion in added revenue.
> 
> However, the government promises it will ultimately even out. The plan is to cut EI premiums in 2017 and start spending down the surplus being built this year.
> 
> The result is EI surpluses this year and next, followed by EI deficits starting in 2017. The ultimate plan is to have the fund break even over a seven-year period ending in 2023.
> 
> The Canadian Federation of Independent Business has railed against taking money from EI premiums in the past, but president Dan Kelly says he supports this policy as long as the government stays true to its word.


(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

Sounds good to me.


----------



## Macfury

For critics of the federal budget, this provides some excellent context. Even if you discount the $1.8 billion borrowed from EI:

Wynne piling up debt | GOLDSTEIN | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun



> ...at $10.9 billion, Premier Kathleen Wynne’s deficit is 68% higher than the combined deficits for 2014-2015 of the federal government, the other nine provinces and the three territories. Yes, you read that right.
> 
> The combined federal, provincial and territorial deficits for 2014-2015 add up to $6.47 billion, compared to Ontario’s $10.9 billion.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> For critics of the federal budget, this provides some excellent context. Even if you discount the $1.8 billion borrowed from EI:
> Wynne piling up debt | GOLDSTEIN | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun


So a provincial leader is screwing up that economy worse than the federal conservatives are screwing up the nation's economy, and that's "excellent context"?

You have an odd way of gauging economic mismanagement, MF....


----------



## FeXL

First off, the point is that it's a Liberal provincial leader who is in hock up to here. Imagine what the Liberals could do at a federal level.

Second, how are the Fed's screwing up the economy? Be specific. Also, compare or contrast that with the wunnerful job Jug Ears is doing south of 49. Again, be specific.



CubaMark said:


> So a provincial leader is screwing up that economy worse than the federal conservatives are screwing up the nation's economy, and that's "excellent context"?


----------



## CubaMark

:lmao: So I have to be line-item specific, but MacFury's "sounds good to me" imparts encyclopaedic knowledge?

That's funny.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Again, be specific.


Forgive the editing here . How about 7 straight years of deficit budgets and 5 times the amount of deficit since Mr. Harper took over from the Liberals.

In the case of Ontario, and I agree the Provincial Liberals are spending like drunken Federal Conservatives, the issue is not so much deficit amount but rather per cent of GDP .... And in Ontario, while not really in a bad way, we are going down that road.


----------



## Rps

Screature, what are the vibes that you see in Quebec with respect to the Federal Election? Any positive vibe towards Mr. Harper?


----------



## Macfury

Only one is screwing up--Wynne. For anyone moaning about borrowing $1.8 billion from EI, Wynne shows what a "progressive" Liberal can do for the economy.



CubaMark said:


> So a provincial leader is screwing up that economy worse than the federal conservatives are screwing up the nation's economy, and that's "excellent context"?
> 
> You have an odd way of gauging economic mismanagement, MF....


----------



## CubaMark

_"Amid criticism that it favours the wealthy and will saddle future governments with a tax leakage problem that could cost billions, Finance Minister Joe Oliver defended his budget's plan to almost double the TFSA limit on Tuesday, saying we should "leave that to Prime Minister Stephen Harper's granddaughter to solve." "_

(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> :lmao: So I have to be line-item specific, but MacFury's "sounds good to me" imparts encyclopaedic knowledge?
> 
> That's funny.


That was in reference to borrowing the $1.8 billion from EI.


----------



## Macfury

I never supported much of the so-called federal stimulus program, yet you did support it Rps, particularly the auto bailout.

QUOTE=Rps;1946530]Forgive the editing here . How about 7 straight years of deficit budgets and 5 times the amount of deficit since Mr. Harper took over from the Liberals.

In the case of Ontario, and I agree the Provincial Liberals are spending like drunken Federal Conservatives, the issue is not so much deficit amount but rather per cent of GDP .... And in Ontario, while not really in a bad way, we are going down that road.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I never supported much of the so-called federal stimulus program, yet you did support it Rps, particularly the auto bailout.
> 
> QUOTE=Rps;1946530]Forgive the editing here . How about 7 straight years of deficit budgets and 5 times the amount of deficit since Mr. Harper took over from the Liberals.
> 
> In the case of Ontario, and I agree the Provincial Liberals are spending like drunken Federal Conservatives, the issue is not so much deficit amount but rather per cent of GDP .... And in Ontario, while not really in a bad way, we are going down that road.


[/QUOTE]

Yes I did support it, however there are other areas that the Feds spent well more than they should have ... I also realise that stuff happens, which the budget limit laws are kind of laughable. The key is, and you have to agree McFury that people will always fight over what is valuable in an economy....just like our disagreement on the Auto Bailout.....this is fair game in our society.....but it is the wasting of funds that chafes most. Again the Auto Bailout might fall in here.


----------



## Macfury

In addition to simpl mismanagement, my definition of government waste includes anything that: 
1) is designed to protect people and businesses from the consequences of their own deliberately bad choices;
2) pays or promotes any company or industry;
3) does for people what they are perfectly capable of doing themselves.

While I saw the federal stimulus program as a bad idea, I recall that both the NDP and Liberal parties threatened to overthrow the government if such a stimulus program was not enacted. Their biggest complaint--the spending was not high enough. 



Rps said:


> Yes I did support it, however there are other areas that the Feds spent well more than they should have ... I also realise that stuff happens, which the budget limit laws are kind of laughable. The key is, and you have to agree McFury that people will always fight over what is valuable in an economy....just like our disagreement on the Auto Bailout.....this is fair game in our society.....but it is the wasting of funds that chafes most. Again the Auto Bailout might fall in here.


----------



## Rps

Fair enough, but using your thoughts here one could say you are against:
Canada Pension
Medicare
E.I. ( to be fair I find flaws with how this has evolved )
Social Services
Public Education 
To name a few.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> :lmao: So I have to be line-item specific, but MacFury's "sounds good to me" imparts encyclopaedic knowledge?
> 
> That's funny.


You don't have to do anything, CM. Just sit at your keyboard & SPAM away. No defense required nor necessary. Just like you did over in the "U.S. soldiers..." thread. Still waiting for a response there.

You made a rather broad based statement & I was just looking for clarification. If you can't/won't, that's your call. Free world & all. However, you will come across with a bit more credibility if you actually respond to posted queries with answers, instead of petulant retorts like, "But, what about MacFuuuuuuuuury?"

And, as MF has already clarified (and I understood from his response), he was addressing the use of EI funding. 

You want people to engage you? Fine. Engage them back.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> You want people to engage you? Fine. Engage them back.


I made a point-for-point rebuttal to that lefty blog on privatizing hydro as requested by CM--and he dropped it like a cold potato. Waste of time.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I made a point-for-point rebuttal to that lefty blog on privatizing hydro as requested by CM--and he dropped it like a cold potato. Waste of time.


Dropped it? Sorry - my position on the privatization of essential public services - such as power utilities - has been pretty clear: horrible idea. Do we really need to debate this again?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> You don't have to do anything, CM. Just sit at your keyboard & SPAM away. No defense required nor necessary. Just like you did over in the "U.S. soldiers..." thread. Still waiting for a response there.


Nice to know that folks are hanging on my every word. I'll see if I can find the time to dig up that thread and see what you're going on about.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada is walking into a copyright trap*

Canadians got an unpleasant surprise in the budget yesterday when the government announced that it would be extending copyright for sound recordings by 20 years, up from Canada’s current term of life of the creator plus 50 years.

The move comes on the heels of the flawed implementation of Canada’s Notice and Notice system, which has left Canadians exposed to abusive and misleading copyright notices from foreign media giants, with virtually no reaction from the federal government, other than to admit that we have a problem.

So why are these new terms bad news? Well, international copyright experts and numerous studies suggest that copyright term extensions benefit neither content producers nor customers, and create major costs for society as a whole. Term extensions also help to shrink the public domain, leaving less available for today's creators to remix, rework and create anew.

What's worse, as Copyright expert Michael Geist warns, is that the move appears to be a concession to U.S. demands aimed at sleepwalking Canada into the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a proposed international deal that could make the Internet more expensive, censored, and policed.​
(OpenMedia.ca)


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Forgive the editing here . How about 7 straight years of deficit budgets and 5 times the amount of deficit since Mr. Harper took over from the Liberals.


Fine. So what would you have changed in those budgets? More taxes? Less spending? Something else?



Rps said:


> In the case of Ontario, and I agree the Provincial Liberals are spending like drunken Federal Conservatives, the issue is not so much deficit amount but rather per cent of GDP .... And in Ontario, while not really in a bad way, we are going down that road.


OK, so I looked up a chart on Federal Budgets as a percentage of GDP. I just randomly picked the period of 1980-2015. Chretien's budgets were increasingly higher as a percentage of GDP, peaked at 2001 & maintained positive levels through Paul Martin. Shortly after that, when the recession hit near the end of Harper's first term, the percentage of GDP drops again. Yes, it's starting to go up again. However, at no point in the last 35 years has this number been higher than when the Liberals were in power.

As to deficit, recall that the 90's were boom years for the country when even a Liberal could balance a budget, then look at this chart.

Chretien's first 3 deficits look an awful lot like Mulroney's before him. Some worse. Did he improve? Absolutely. Again, in the middle of an economic boom the size of which this country may have never seen before. It's no wonder his deficits were low (even going to surplus).


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Nice to know that folks are hanging on my every word.


Hey, some of us pay attention to what's being posted, others of us just gloss over it.



CubaMark said:


> I'll see if I can find the time to dig up that thread and see *what you're going on about.*


Funny, the same words you used in that selfsame thread.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Dropped it? Sorry - my position on the privatization of essential public services - such as power utilities - has been pretty clear: horrible idea. Do we really need to debate this again?


If I knew you weren't going to respond I wouldn't have bothered. Did you think that the poor blog you linked to had done a good job making its case?


----------



## Macfury

Bump


----------



## Rps

FeLX, the economies over that period are in the "stuff happens" category. Mulroney was dreadful in overseeing the economy, I admit Harper's government has better prima facie optics. What you rightly point out, but did not really say, was the very poor handling of the economy by Turner/Trudeau. But, again, Harper's government is supposed to be the economic masters, but their spending ( some here might say as stimulus wasteful ) contradicts their governance message.


----------



## Macfury

I don't think the federal government "manages" the economy so much as it places or removes impediments to it. 



Rps said:


> FeLX, the economies over that period are in the "stuff happens" category. Mulroney was dreadful in overseeing the economy, I admit Harper's government has better prima facie optics. What you rightly point out, but did not really say, was the very poor handling of the economy by Turner/Trudeau. But, again, Harper's government is supposed to be the economic masters, but their spending ( some here might say as stimulus wasteful ) contradicts their governance message.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeLX, the economies over that period are in the "stuff happens" category. Mulroney was dreadful in overseeing the economy, I admit Harper's government has better prima facie optics. What you rightly point out, but did not really say, was the very poor handling of the economy by Turner/Trudeau. But, again, Harper's government is supposed to be the economic masters, but their spending ( some here might say as stimulus wasteful ) contradicts their governance message.


30-odd years ago I was a partsman at a John Deere/GM dealership. When times were good, Deere & Co were financially tough. When economics got tough, the long green line powers-that-be would relax, understanding the difficulty & not wanting to contribute to the problem. I liked their methodology. It made sense to me.

That's how I feel about politicians & budgets, for the most part. Trudeau had a tough row to hoe in the early 80's, what with 18% interest rates, inflation & all. I never liked the SOB but I'm willing to cut him _some_ slack during those times, excepting the NEP. Same thing with Harper & the recent recession. Nearly impossible to predict, all you can do is react. Understood. Mulroney was a terrible money manager, agreed. I don't know if he was just that bad or if it was because of his red conservative leanings.

That's also why I expected more from the Liberals during the windfall 90's. Finances were good & they could have done better.

Yes, Harper has made mistakes but, looking at the Charlie Foxtrot to the south, I can't help but feel fortunate that we don't have a progressive idiot like that at the helm. Things could be far worse...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Trudeau had a tough row to hoe in the early 80's, what with 18% interest rates, inflation & all. I never liked the SOB but I'm willing to cut him _some_ slack during those times, excepting the NEP.


Throw in the "anti-inflation board"...


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Sounds good to me.


Me too. Probably the most fiscally sound budget we've seen in this country in at least 40 years.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Throw in the "anti-inflation board"...


Agreed.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Start a new thread and use this box in red:


Hi Sinc, I have tried this but the category lines do not appear. I will try it again to see what is what.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Hi Sinc, I have tried this but the category lines do not appear. I will try it again to see what is what.


It's near the very bottom.


----------



## screature

The reaction from the average Canadian voter...

There was a Federal Budget last week???....

Go Habs Go!!!

Go Sens Go!!!

Go Cons Go!!!


----------



## screature

The snake seems to be eating its tail in this thread... But that is not surprising. I think that is the way all dominant societies work whether they be human or otherwise.

Been feeding squirrels and watching their behavior for a couple of months now. What I have noticed is just how much they are like every other living thing.

If survival is less difficult then there is less discord among competitors.


----------



## FeXL

Where's the screeching from the left about abandoning Quebec's Maple Syrup Marketing Board?

‘Worse than drugs’



> Quebec is the Saudi Arabia of maple syrup. This food fight has shattered the bucolic image of sugaring-off season here. Producers whisk away their sweet liquid by night, trade in “black market syrup” and rage against what they call the “mafia” of the producers’ union.


Lawbreakers! Throw their butts in jail!

More:



> In defiance of the rules, Grenier exported hundreds of barrels of maple syrup to New Brunswick from 2002 through 2014 — just so she could collect the money she earned.


Charge her! Villain!

OK, OK. /sarc.

The similarities with the Canadian Wheat Board are eerie:



> Like those Western growers who not long ago rebelled against the similarly monopolistic Canadian Wheat Board before Ottawa liberated them, *these producers say they simply want the right to trade in their harvest freely. To sell to whomever they choose. To fetch the highest price they can, and to collect payment upon delivery.* The federation does not allow this.


M'bold.

Any of this sounding familiar? Perhaps this situation will offer some perspective...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Where's the screeching from the left about abandoning Quebec's Maple Syrup Marketing Board?


First I've heard about it!



FeXL said:


> ‘Worse than drugs’
> 
> Lawbreakers! Throw their butts in jail!


The article is pretty balanced, from what I've garnered in a quick read. There are maple producers who support the Federation and those who don't. The article isn't clear on whether *all* Quebec producers of maple syrup must belong to the Federation or whether one can operate independently. The reasons for having a Federation are explained (bottom dropped out of the market back in 2000; security for producers in cooperating on production; joint marketing, negotiation, etc.). 



FeXL said:


> The similarities with the Canadian Wheat Board are eerie:


Really? No idea. What's the size of Canada's grain industry vs. the size of Quebec's syrup market? Is a Federation of syrup producers directly comparable to farmers who dealt with the old Wheat Board? Or is this a false equivalency?


----------



## FeXL

The issues listed for the syrup producers were the biggest issues facing those who wanted to leave the CWB.

Namely, the ones I bolded in my OP.

This has nothing to do with size. It has everything to do with yet more government interference where it isn't wanted or needed. Let the free market decide who remains successful & who moves on.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The issues listed for the syrup producers were the biggest issues facing those who wanted to leave the CWB.
> 
> Namely, the ones I bolded in my OP.
> 
> This has nothing to do with size. It has everything to do with yet more government interference where it isn't wanted or needed. Let the free market decide who remains successful & who moves on.


_From_ each according to their abilities, _to_ each according to their incompetence..


----------



## FeXL

I've posted links to articles about issues with the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) before. These have all come from a website know as RestoreCSA. Looks like they've finally caught someone's attention.

Announcing the Investigations



> We can now confirm that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Financial Crimes Unit (RCMP) has opened a criminal investigation into CSA conduct. FYI, the Financial Crimes Unit has responsibility for government corruption cases. We can further confirm that the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) has initiated at least two criminal investigations into CSA activities in the United States.


From the sounds of it, long overdue.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> _From_ each according to their abilities, _to_ each according to their incompetence..


I have stories that I could tell but can't sadly.

Based on what I have seen the "new hires" very often have a very much greater understanding of the issues at hand than do their "superiors". Obviously it isn't always the case but I have seen it a number of times.

Experienced "staffers", more often than not, know more about the processes of Parliament than the MPs who they work for.

I have heard it said by more than one MP something to the effect of, "i would be lost if it wasn't for my staff both in the constituency office as well as the Parliamentary office".

Obviously I am paraphrasing, but *many* MPs realize they could not possibly do their jobs without their staff.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> I have stories that I could tell but can't sadly.
> 
> 
> I have heard it said by more than one MP something to the effect of, "i would be lost if it wasn't for my staff both in the constituency office as well as the Parliamentary office".


If the truth be told, many times when we elect a member we are actually voting for his or her support staff. I have never known an MPP or MP to stay in office if their support staff was subpar.

In fact when I lived near Oshawa, a number of voters moved to the NDP candidate because the NDP member in Oshawa Centre at that time had such a great staff that people in contiguous ridings switched voting because the staff at the Oshawa Centre helped them where their candidate's staff was useless to them. This was a long time ago but I am sure it still holds true today.

Can anyone think of a long serving member in either Parliament with an incompetent staff...... I can't think of one in my experience.


----------



## Dr.G.

Conrad Black's appeal on tax bill turned down by Supreme Court - Business - CBC News

Truly sad. Now his Lordship has to pay taxes just like all of us rif-rafs (aka "the common Canadian"). The CRA or the British government should step in and either make an exemption for him, or at least pick up the tab. We are not his peers, so why should he be treated as if he was just like us in the eyes of the law???? Yes, truly a sad state of affairs.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> If the truth be told, many times when we elect a member we are actually voting for his or her support staff. I have never known an MPP or MP to stay in office if their support staff was subpar.
> 
> In fact when I lived near Oshawa, a number of voters moved to the NDP candidate because the NDP member in Oshawa Centre at that time had such a great staff that people in contiguous ridings switched voting because the staff at the Oshawa Centre helped them where their candidate's staff was useless to them. This was a long time ago but I am sure it still holds true today.
> 
> *Can anyone think of a long serving member in either Parliament with an incompetent staff...... I can't think of one in my experience.*


I can think of a number of long serving MPs who are routinely looking for new staff... I think that says a lot more about the MP than the competence of his/her staff.

Some people are impossible to please despite their own all too obvious failings.


----------



## CubaMark

*Anyones] want to take a crack at defending this deal?*

*Canada creates auto sector jobs in US & Mexico as 1,000 GM workers laid off in Canada*

Why is Canada spending half a billion dollars helping German car makers create jobs in Mexico and the United States at the same time as thousands of manufacturing jobs are being eliminated right here at home?

On Thursday, 1,000 auto workers at General Motors learned they were the latest ones to lose their jobs when the automobile giant announced massive layoffs at its Oshawa assembly line. This represents a reduction of one-third of GM's Oshawa workforce.

GM said it plans to move production of the Chevrolet Camaro across the border from Oshawa to Lansing, Michigan. Unifor, the union representing GM workers at the Oshawa plant, speculated that the Harper government's recent decision to sell off its shares in GM in a bid to balance the budget may have influenced the automaker's decision to scale back operations at the Oshawa plant and layoff workers.

Canada lost taxpayers $3.5 billion when Finance Minister Joe Oliver chose to sell the government's shares in GM before they earned back their full value.

Last month, Unifor released a report that found Oshawa's GM plant supports an additional 33,000 jobs in the local economy and generates $1 billion in tax revenue for the government.

And if that's an injury, here's the insult:

The devastating news for Oshawa comes just a week after Export Development Canada announced *a $526 million loan to Volkswagen to help them "grow their operations in North America" -- by building factories and creating jobs in Mexico *(where jobs in the auto sector pay even less than the Canadian and American minimum wage), as well as in right-to-work states in the American south with loose labour laws and low wages.

EDC claims the move could "generate opportunities for small and medium-sized Canadian companies to win business with the global automotive giant," but that's completely up to Volkswagon.

But there is actually no guarantee Canadians will see one cent of new business generated by the Canadian crown corporation's half a billion dollar loan.​
(PressProgress)

*Further reading:*


Union condemns federal agency for lending Volkswagen $526 million to expand operations in U.S. and Mexico | National Post
Unifor freaks out over EDC's $526M Volkswagen loan - Canadian Manufacturing
EDC: That Volkswagen loan is a winner | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

Not me. Government has no business lending money to car companies or solar panel manufacturers.

Toronto continues to vote the likes of Dalton McGuinty and Kathleen Wynne into office, so Ontario can ultimately kiss those auto manufacturing jobs goodbye--there's no reason to build here any longer.


----------



## SINC

Looks like Prentice and his PC company have cooked their own goose by calling an early, unecessary and unwanted election. Voter retaliation is swift and cruel with an NDP government predicted:

New Alberta Government Inevitable


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Looks like Prentice and his PC company have cooked their own goose by calling an early, unecessary and unwanted election. Voter retaliation is swift and cruel with an NDP government predicted:
> 
> New Alberta Government Inevitable


The PCs were already drowning in red-ink and mis-management before oil prices plunged. Big mistake to call an election just as it becomes obvious how bad things might get. In our area a new power line we are already paying for and soon to be blighting our views, all to send power to Montana is extremely unpopular.

I think the Wild Rose defection may have left a bigger stain on the PCs than it did on the WR party. It looks like a back room deal intended to destroy the main opposition. I think our district will go Wild Rose this time as well. Our member did not cross the chamber and has done a reasonably effective job of representing the region and helping to pick up the pieces. The Liberal candidate was drafted just to get a name on the ballot and has been unheard from otherwise. The NDP candidate is very young and has almost nobody helping her out.


----------



## Macfury

Fascinating. Ontario visited that particular form of punishment on itself with Bob Rae.

His victory was also the result of a snap election and arrogance on the part of Lib leader David Peterson.



SINC said:


> Looks like Prentice and his PC company have cooked their own goose by calling an early, unecessary and unwanted election. Voter retaliation is swift and cruel with an NDP government predicted:
> 
> New Alberta Government Inevitable


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Fascinating. Ontario visited that particular form of punishment on itself with Bob Rae.
> 
> His victory was also the result of a snap election and arrogance on the part of Lib leader David Peterson.


Yeah, if it goes NDP as predicted, it will without doubt be the worst thing that ever happened to Alberta. BUT, what of a coalition of the PC/Wildrose if they have enough seats to better the NDP? Interesting times in wild rose country.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yeah, if it goes NDP as predicted, it will without doubt be the worst thing that ever happened to Alberta. BUT, what of a coalition of the PC/Wildrose if they have enough seats to better the NDP? Interesting times in wild rose country.


Alberta is unique in that lefty protest votes can really go only to the NDP--the Libs are an impossibility. I'd be interested in seeing a PC/Wildrose coalition with free voting by each member in the Legislature--and a coalition that didn't stink of Prentice.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Looks like Prentice and his PC company have cooked their own goose by calling an early, unecessary and unwanted election. Voter retaliation is swift and cruel with an NDP government predicted:


I think it would be an interesting turn of events... I caught The National's report from last night... I was surprised to learn that Alberta's average voter is 36.5 years old... and that the Conservatives have been in power for 44 years... I have been dismissing the predictions of an NDP win provincially, but it may very well be in the cards. Certainly a race to watch....


----------



## Rps

Alberta is a conservative province, so..... I think there may be a sudden change when the people vote, I call this the X factor and it has proven pundits wrong the last few years. So this will be fun to watch.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Looks like Prentice and his PC company have cooked their own goose by calling an early, unecessary and unwanted election. Voter retaliation is swift and cruel with an NDP government predicted:
> 
> New Alberta Government Inevitable




An amazing point to even consider in AB. We shall see comes Wednesday, however, how true these polls are in reality.


----------



## Macfury

Hooray for Dewey!


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Alberta is a conservative province, so..... I think there may be a sudden change when the people vote, I call this the X factor and it has proven pundits wrong the last few years. So this will be fun to watch.


I think you are very wrong this time around. The catalyst to this whole thing is a backlash from the Wildrose floor crossing back in December. The people of Alberta elected the WR as the largest opposition in decades and they expected them to gain experience at government. Then had the WR not self destructed, they would have been voted in in the election that was mandated for next year.

Instead the PCs in their wisdom approached the WR leader and convinced her and most of her MLAs to cross with promises of guaranteed nominations as PCs in the next election.

That pissed off the people of Alberta big time. Everyone was shocked and disappointed that the WR had turned on them and considered them to be traitors for siding with 'the enemy', the PCs.

What polls are showing is backlash and anger venting by voters who have now turned to the only alternative there was to the PC and WR scheme.

Three Hundred Eight has nailed it here:

ThreeHundredEight.com

And this is their prediction based on the average results of six different polls by six different polling firms:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Hooray for Dewey!


Yes ............... he helped HST win a close election. :clap::clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

For Alberta, Jim Prentice is the best choice - The Globe and Mail

Interesting endorsement.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Three Hundred Eight has nailed it here:
> 
> ThreeHundredEight.com
> 
> And this is their prediction based on the average results of six different polls by six different polling firms:


Perhaps this would be a good time to push for proportional representation and get rid of the godawful first-past-the-post system. It could *only* ever be adopted if the Conservatives were in a position to benefit from the change.

And:


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> The PCs were already drowning in red-ink and mis-management before oil prices plunged. Big mistake to call an election just as it becomes obvious how bad things might get. In our area a new power line we are already paying for and soon to be blighting our views, all to send power to Montana is extremely unpopular.
> 
> I think the Wild Rose defection may have left a bigger stain on the PCs than it did on the WR party. It looks like a back room deal intended to destroy the main opposition. I think our district will go Wild Rose this time as well. Our member did not cross the chamber and has done a reasonably effective job of representing the region and helping to pick up the pieces. The Liberal candidate was drafted just to get a name on the ballot and has been unheard from otherwise. The NDP candidate is very young and has almost nobody helping her out.



The Wildrose "gift" of 9 MLA's is looking more like a Trojan Horse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> Alberta is a conservative province, so..... I think there may be a sudden change when the people vote, I call this the X factor and it has proven pundits wrong the last few years. So this will be fun to watch.



I don't think so. Those polls are supposed to be close to correct 19 times out of 20, and the election in 2012 was the wild card 20th time. 😜


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> I think it would be an interesting turn of events... I caught The National's report from last night... I was surprised to learn that Alberta's average voter is 36.5 years old... and that the Conservatives have been in power for 44 years... I have been dismissing the predictions of an NDP win provincially, but it may very well be in the cards. Certainly a race to watch....



Rachel Notley is the only one who sounds intelligent when she talks (the debate last Thursday is on YouTube). She's also the snappiest dresser. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yeah, if it goes NDP as predicted, it will without doubt be the worst thing that ever happened to Alberta. BUT, what of a coalition of the PC/Wildrose if they have enough seats to better the NDP? Interesting times in wild rose country.



Seems to me that voters are not interested in seeing a coalition unless the parties declared that possible outcome during the election. Both the PC's and WR's are being heavily shat upon for their partial coalition last December.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Perhaps this would be a good time to push for proportional representation....


Nope.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Nope.


Been voted on in Ontario and the result was a resounding NO.

If it were to ever to occur at a federal level I suspect the results would be the same.

But if the Federal NDP were ever to come into power with a majority they would just formulate a Bill that proposed it and then it would become law. They would not have a National referendum on the issue before imposing the law. I can guarantee you that!


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Been voted on in Ontario and the result was a resounding NO.
> 
> If it were to ever to occur at a federal level I suspect the results would be the same.
> 
> But if the Federal NDP were ever to come into power with a majority they would just formulate a Bill that proposed it and then it would become law. They would not have a National referendum on the issue before imposing the law. I can guarantee you that!


Let's see, the cons passed passed legislation making any Canadian with dual citizenship a second class Canadian citizen, subject to deportation. If there was a national referendum on that one it certainly escaped my notice.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Let's see, *the cons passed passed legislation making any Canadian with dual citizenship a second class Canadian citizen, subject to deportation.* If there was a national referendum on that one it certainly escaped my notice.


Nope they didn't. Never happened. 

But I know where you are coming from, since you have posted at least 100 times on FATCA.

The NDP has openly stated they will create a Bill to impose proportional representation if they were to form the federal government. They would not conduct a referendum before.

I will give this to the Ontario Libs, at least they conducted a referendum before creating any legislation on the matter.

Power does as Power will/can most of the time. Democratic or otherwise...

It is long but well worth watching IMO...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






It will be no different among the opposition parties if they form a majority, history has shown this time and again... The methods may change but those in power get their way.

Isn't that what* power* is about after all?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Isn't that what* power* is about after all?


Yep. It's about using that power to maintain that power.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yep. It's about using that power to maintain that power.


But at least we get to vote once in a while.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> But at least we get to vote once in a while.


We take them by surprise!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> We take them by surprise!


It can and has happened. Isn't democracy a great "sport/game", probably the greatest of them all. Certainly the consequences of the results of the contest (election) are the greatest of them all.


----------



## Dr.G.

McCrae statue marks In Flanders Fields centennial | The Chronicle Herald

Lest we forget.


----------



## Dr.G.

It is shaping up to be an interesting election in Alberta, n'est ce pas?


----------



## SINC

Yes, today is the final day of the campaign and no matter where I go, the only word I hear is 'change'. But this is Alberta and one never knows for sure until the only poll that counts is done and that takes place tomorrow. We voted on Friday at the advance poll, so I can sit back and watch.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Looks like Prentice and his PC company have cooked their own goose by calling an early, unecessary and unwanted election. Voter retaliation is swift and cruel with an NDP government predicted:


An NDP win? Just shoot me...

Went to the local candidates forum last week. The female Liberal candidate, to be polite, should not have even shown up. She would have been less embarrassing. The female NDP candiate was on her high horse about global warming, etc., &, in addition, thought that $100 was 1% of $100,000. I called out from the crowd that it was no wonder you guys thought you could balance a budget. It got a good laugh. The PC guy is one of the ones that crossed over from WR. He justified his move by saying that it was the only way he could maintain his promise to his constituents to have free votes, something that WR had limited after the previous leadership convention in its pursuit of the Calgary/Edmonton urban vote. I got up to ask him if that meant that when (not if) Prentice stifled that freedom, he'd move to the Liberals or NDP. Unfortunately, question period ended before I could ask the question. The WR guy is a farmer local to the PC guy, they've served on a few county committees together. He was pretty green, as he'd filed his nomination papers only weeks before.

That said, I don't know who to vote for. NDP/Liberal are completely out of the question. No way I'm voting for a floor crosser, so PC is out (although the budget is the second reason). That leaves me with WR or spoiling the ballot. I don't know which it's going to be...


----------



## CubaMark

*Postmedia Told Edmonton Journal to Endorse Jim Prentice, Says Edmonton Journal*

The Progressive Conservatives and their leader have had a rough go this election, with public backlash against an early vote call, allegations of corruption, a poor debate performance by their leader, and cheeky vandals making candidate Jonathan Denis' campaign signs to read "Jonathan Penis" all drawing unwanted attention.

Their recent performance in office and at the hustings subject to widespread media and voter skepticism, incumbent Premier Jim Prentice and the PCs nonetheless managed to secure the endorsement of the four largest papers in Alberta, the Edmonton Journal, Calgary Herald, Edmonton Sun and Calgary Sun.

* * *

Paula Simons of the Edmonton Journal wrote a Twitter essay with strong criticisms of her paper's endorsement and counterarguments in favour of Prentice's opponents. Simons also says she was told the Journal would not be endorsing anyone in the election, and so the decision took her by surprise.

The Journal is owned by the Toronto-based Postmedia, who also own the Herald and recently acquired the Edmonton Sun and Calgary Sun when it bought Sun Media. Postmedia is headed by CEO Paul Godfrey, a very public and active conservative, who personally endorsed Patrick Brown in his ongoing bid to led the Ontario PCs.

The concentrated ownership of all four papers led *conservative gadfly Ezra Levant to assert that Postmedia's Toronto HQ ordered all four papers to endorse Prentice* and his struggling party.​
(CanadaLandShow)


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> It is shaping up to be an interesting election in Alberta, n'est ce pas?



Indeed. We are the verge of the first socialist government in Alberta history. Also the shortest serving premier in Alberta history. By-bye, Slippin' Jimmy.


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## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> *Postmedia Told Edmonton Journal to Endorse Jim Prentice, Says Edmonton Journal*
> 
> 
> 
> The Progressive Conservatives and their leader have had a rough go this election, with public backlash against an early vote call, allegations of corruption, a poor debate performance by their leader, and cheeky vandals making candidate Jonathan Denis' campaign signs to read "Jonathan Penis" all drawing unwanted attention.
> 
> 
> 
> Their recent performance in office and at the hustings subject to widespread media and voter skepticism, incumbent Premier Jim Prentice and the PCs nonetheless managed to secure the endorsement of the four largest papers in Alberta, the Edmonton Journal, Calgary Herald, Edmonton Sun and Calgary Sun.
> 
> 
> 
> * * *
> 
> 
> 
> Paula Simons of the Edmonton Journal wrote a Twitter essay with strong criticisms of her paper's endorsement and counterarguments in favour of Prentice's opponents. Simons also says she was told the Journal would not be endorsing anyone in the election, and so the decision took her by surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> The Journal is owned by the Toronto-based Postmedia, who also own the Herald and recently acquired the Edmonton Sun and Calgary Sun when it bought Sun Media. Postmedia is headed by CEO Paul Godfrey, a very public and active conservative, who personally endorsed Patrick Brown in his ongoing bid to led the Ontario PCs.
> 
> 
> 
> The concentrated ownership of all four papers led *conservative gadfly Ezra Levant to assert that Postmedia's Toronto HQ ordered all four papers to endorse Prentice* and his struggling party.​
> 
> 
> (CanadaLandShow)



Hoisted by their own petards, as Shakespeare would say. 😜


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## eMacMan

The great western propaganda machine strikes again.

Most of us remember that Canada blundered into Afghanistan along with the US and other NATO nations. 

A lot of lives were lost, and more than a few Canadian soldiers came home less than whole only to be further betrayed by the Harpo lump sum legislation. When all was tallied up Afghanistan was pretty much where it started with two exceptions. Even more critical infrastructure had been reduced to rubble and poppy production had increased twenty fold. 

The reason for the second we were told is that the Taliban had strangled poppy production and the west could not further alienate the population by shutting down their only source of income. The most likely translation is that certain members of the Super Elite, who pushed the west into Afghanistan, were the ones profiting from the opium trade.

Now the propaganda mill would have us believe that it is the Taliban, who are the ones running the poppy trade. That would be the same Taliban which had previously tried to shut down the poppy trade.

Afghan poppy farmers say new seeds will boost opium output



> ZHARI, Afghanistan (AP) — It's the cash crop of the Taliban and the scourge of Afghanistan — the country's intractable opium cultivation. This year, many Afghan poppy farmers are expecting a windfall as they get ready to harvest opium from a new variety of poppy seeds said to boost yield of the resin that produces heroin.
> 
> 
> 
> The plants grow bigger, faster, use less water than seeds they've used before, and give up to double the amount of opium, they say.
> _*No one seems to know where the seeds originate from*_.


Opium poppies literally plant themselves why buy seeds? Who has the research facilities to produce that sort of super poppy? Monsanto? The CIA? ........


----------



## eMacMan

Have cast my vote. To be brutal the PCs did not get it. They lost it on their own (non)merits, Harper did not erode it vicariously.


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## fjnmusic

An hour and a half until the polls close in Alberta. It will be sad to see the PC party die a slow death in Alberta.....wait a minute—no it won't! Party time!


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## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> An hour and a half until the polls close in Alberta. It will be sad to see the PC party die a slow death in Alberta.....wait a minute—no it won't! Party time!


I have no issues with the PC's taking a long overdue break. However, not wanting the NDP leeches & bloodsuckers in their stead...


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## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> I have no issues with the PC's taking a long overdue break. However, not wanting the NDP leeches & bloodsuckers in their stead...



Oh, it's going to be more than a break, FeXL. No party in the 110 year history of Alberta has ever returned to power after being defeated. The Tories are done here.


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## SINC

So, anyone want to hazard a seats per party prediction?

Not much time left, but here is mine:

PC 17 

NDP 35 

WRP 34 

Lib 1 

AB 0


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## CubaMark

I know absolutely nothing about Alberta politics. So let's see how my psychic powers fare:

PC 21 

NDP 31 

WRP 22 

Lib 12 

AB 0

_(Those numbers literally pulled outta my keister at 7:22pm MDT)_

*EDIT 848pm*: _Um... I think I might have low-balled the NDP.... holy heck._


----------



## heavyall

I really feel bad for Alberta. They have no idea what a mistake they've made.


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## CubaMark

In a strange way, this could be good news for Harper. Come Federal election time, any missteps by the NDP in Alberta between now and then could feed the Conservative propaganda against the federal NDP party...


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## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> In a strange way, this could be good news for Harper. Come Federal election time, any missteps by the NDP in Alberta between now and then could feed the Conservative propaganda against the federal NDP party...


Don't really see that happening as summer recess is just around the corner and Rachel is savvy enough not to rock the boat too seriously right off the bat.

Could also be very bad news for the Harpster. When a province as conservative as Alberta no longer falls for the fear and smear routine, he could be in really bad shape as his entire election strategy is based on the same strategy. In his case he also could suffer a backlash from having thrown as many as 5 million Canadians under one legislative blunder bus or another.

OTOH if you are willing to let the Conmen tell you what your views should be, there really is no other party to vote for whereas Albertans clearly saw the Wild Rose party as preferable to the PCs especially after the more extreme members crossed the floor.


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## FeXL

heavyall said:


> I really feel bad for Alberta. They have no idea what a mistake they've made.


Those of us in the rural parts of the province do...


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## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Those of us in the rural parts of the province do...


The electoral map as of 10:08pm MDT seems to show considerable orange in rural areas, not just the urban voters:


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## CubaMark

Wow. *Prentice just picked up his ball and went home*. He won his seat, and resigned it before all of the votes have even been counted _in his riding_.

Sore loser? Not good optics.


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## FeXL

Well, unfortunately, Prentice will probably keep his seat. Too bad. Guess his karma will be to preside over the bones of the party.

(edit after CM's comment above) Good. Also great satisfaction there.

Fortunately, it looks like Ian Donovan, one of the few Wildrose to PC floor-crossers who managed to keep his seat after doing so, will be gone. Good. Great satisfaction on my behalf there.

I predict a provincial sales tax will be introduced before the end of the year. Following shortly on the heels of that, I predict that the Alberta NDP will destroy the province's economy, starting with health care & education, just like they have in every other province they've ever held power in.

Good night.


----------



## CubaMark

*Alberta Election 2015: Prentice resigns as leader, resigns his seat*

The long-governing PC Party has dropped to third place. The outgoing premier Jim Prentice told his supporters late Tuesday that he had resigned as party leader and had resigned his seat.​
(CBC)


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## Vandave

I'm not sure Albertans are going to be very savvy about how the NDP operates government behind the scenes. They spread themselves all over and it never goes away. If herpes was a political party, it would be NDP. Better watch tem closely Albertans.


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## Macfury

I've always carried water for Alberta as the engine of Canada's economic growth. With this bonehead move I can no longer speak up for you guys. At least you won't have to be handing out equalization payments any longer.


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## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Wow. *Prentice just picked up his ball and went home*. He won his seat, and resigned it before all of the votes have even been counted _in his riding_.
> 
> 
> 
> Sore loser? Not good optics.



Once an @sshole, always an @sshole. Sort of gives you an idea how much serving the people meant to him.

The best party won, quite handily. I am pleased, as are the vast majority of Albertans right now. 😎👍


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I've always carried water for Alberta as the engine of Canada's economic growth. With this bonehead move I can no longer speak up for you guys. At least you won't have to be handing out equalization payments any longer.



Thank The Lord for the little things!


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## Dr.G.

Did not see the extent of this one coming. Neither did my wife who was born and raised in AB. I would have bet on a PC minority government, with some sort of coalition with the WRP on various issues.


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## Macfury

Why would they be pleased?



fjnmusic said:


> The best party won, quite handily. I am pleased, as are the vast majority of Albertans right now.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Why would they be pleased?



Because this is exactly the kind of generational change Albertans have been waiting 44 years for. Rachel Notley is going to be a great premier, reminiscent of Peter Lougheed in his early days.


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----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Because this is exactly the kind of generational change Albertans have been waiting 44 years for. Rachel Notley is going to be a great premier, reminiscent of Peter Lougheed in his early days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be great for AB. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


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## SINC

This is exactly the kind of change that puts Alberta on very shaky ground. An inexperienced bunch, members of a party known to have nearly destroyed the provinces they have ever governed. A Global TV commentator from BC last night stated that BC had just yesterday wound up a court case that was a hangover from the devastation caused by the NDP in that province when they last help power there.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> This is exactly the kind of change that puts Alberta on very shaky ground. An inexperienced bunch, members of a party known to have nearly destroyed the provinces they have ever governed. A Global TV commentator from BC last night stated that BC had just yesterday wound up a court case that was a hangover from the devastation caused by the NDP in that province when they last help power there.


Some missteps aside (and some obvious amnesia regarding some very good NDP governments, e.g., Manitoba), one shouldn't forget that in every instance where the NDP managed to take hold of the reins of power, they were faced with the legacies of debt and structural failure resulting from decades of Liberal & Conservative governments that went before them.

In Nova Scotia, the Dexter government also won an historic victory - and then squandered it by governing like the other parties and alienating their own base. Hopefully Alberta won't go down that path.


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## Macfury

No. I asked why _the majority_ of Albertans would be pleased with this.

You're pretty funny when you get excited. If Notley would be like Lougheed in his early days and this is a good thing, then Albertans have hardly been "waiting 44 years for" change.

Albertans were pissed off with the Premiere for calling an early election, so they punished him and the Wildrose defectors. Since their protest vote can't go to the Liberals, they held their noses and voted for Notley. It'll feel good for a few days to see Prentice and the PCs humbled --then they'll get the four-year NDP hangover. For Ontario, Bob Rae's lingering stench lasted the better part of a decade.



fjnmusic said:


> Because this is exactly the kind of generational change Albertans have been waiting 44 years for. Rachel Notley is going to be a great premier, reminiscent of Peter Lougheed in his early days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> No. I asked why _the majority_ of Albertans would be pleased with this.
> 
> You're pretty funny when you get excited. If Notley would be like Lougheed in his early days and this is a good thing, then Albertans have hardly been "waiting 44 years for" change.
> 
> Albertans were pissed off with the Premiere for calling an early election, so they punished him and the Wildrose defectors. Since their protest vote can't go to the Liberals, they held their noses and voted for Notley. It'll feel good for a few days to see Prentice and the PCs humbled --then they'll get the four-year NDP hangover. For Ontario, Bob Rae's lingering stench lasted the better part of a decade.


The problem Notely'll have is keeping her own long-time, die-hard supporters in line. They'll never understand that a government has to govern, not just issue leaflets. I'm not sure even Jack Layton had it in him to do that.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The problem Notely'll have is keeping her own long-time, die-hard supporters in line. They'll never understand that a government has to govern, not just issue leaflets. I'm not sure even Jack Layton had it in him to do that.


I heard that Notley wants to refine oil inside Alberta's borders by rewarding oil companies for doing so. So we've got our first big corporate subsidy to encourage oil companies to do what makes no economic sense.

It's interesting that Bob Rae quickly turned on the public sector types who thought it was going to be a feeding frenzy.


----------



## eMacMan

Most Albertans, believe that Prentice coaxed the Wild Rose members to cross the floor hoping to collapse his main opposition. The ploy failed, far right cons had a conservative alternative, more moderate Albertans decided to go NDP. 

Like I said earlier the PCs were doing as badly at math as the NDP, with their corporate welfare buds being the major beneficiary. 

The NDP pipe dream of taxing the rich to offset the current red ink is unrealistic, as most Albertans do not come anywhere close to qualifying as rich.

I am not really expecting immediate major changes with the first interim budget but am trying to get a couple of major purchases taken care of now, expecting a possible sales tax to be introduced later this year. Hopefully it will be a sales tax and not an HST. Hopefully she will keep it to a reasonable 3%. 

A sales tax could hit our part of the province hard as a lot of people travel from Southeastern BC to Southwestern Alberta to dodge the provincial sales tax on larger purchase.


----------



## Macfury

Sales taxes are the most regressive of taxes, since the poor spend 100% of their income.



eMacMan said:


> Most Albertans, believe that Prentice coaxed the Wild Rose members to cross the floor hoping to collapse his main opposition. The ploy failed, far right cons had a conservative alternative, more moderate Albertans decided to go NDP.
> 
> Like I said earlier the PCs were doing as badly at math as the NDP, with their corporate welfare buds being the major beneficiary.
> 
> The NDP pipe dream of taxing the rich to offset the current red ink is unrealistic, as most Albertans do not come anywhere close to qualifying as rich.
> 
> I am not really expecting immediate major changes with the first interim budget but am trying to get a couple of major purchases taken care of now, expecting a possible sales tax to be introduced later this year. Hopefully it will be a sales tax and not an HST. Hopefully she will keep it to a reasonable 3%.
> 
> A sales tax could hit our part of the province hard as a lot of people travel from Southeastern BC to Southwestern Alberta to dodge the provincial sales tax on larger purchase.


----------



## FeXL

In addition, kiss Keystone goodbye & good luck with your decreased transfer payments, Ontario...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> In addition, kiss Keystone goodbye & good luck with your decreased transfer payments, Ontario...


Alberta, where economic malaise isn't just a buzzword... it's a way of life!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Albertans were pissed off with the Premiere for calling an early election, so they punished him and the Wildrose defectors.


I'd like to expand on this a bit. 

I believe that it was not only the early election call but the total crap budget. No cutbacks to speak of & increases sprinkled all over the damn place. There was no evidence that Prentice & the goons paid the slightest attention to the feedback generated by their questionnaire. One of the analysts on TV last evening noted that much of the NDP platform was based on the results of that very document. If so, smart politics.

Regarding WR, Danielle Smith thought that voters would follow her & her defectors. While some did, most did not. In typical arrogant politician fashion, what she (& they) didn't understand was that most voters were voting for Wildrose, not for her. She leaves, Wildrose stays, Wildrose gets the votes. It's how Alberta votes. This was summed up nicely in a statement I read this morning about a certain riding in Edmonton (can't recall which one, maybe the one with the university student): the NDP could have run a goat there & it would have been elected.

I told my children last night before we all went to bed that, politically, it was the worst night of my life.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> I told my children last night before we all went to bed that, politically, it was the worst night of my life.


This will forever stain Alberta. What voters have done is to punish themselves by thinking they were punishing the PC party.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> This will forever stain Alberta. What voters have done is to punish themselves by thinking they were punishing the PC party.


Exactly. Humiliating Prentice will leave a bitter taste.


----------



## Macfury

I get constant calls from PC Ontario and federal Conservative fundraisers. I explain to each of them that I don't care about the glorious benefits they are touting--I want them to cut spending. I tell them that I will start donating when they free up enough of my income so I feel comfortable doing it.



FeXL said:


> I'd like to expand on this a bit.
> 
> I believe that it was not only the early election call but the total crap budget. No cutbacks to speak of & increases sprinkled all over the damn place. There was no evidence that Prentice & the goons paid the slightest attention to the feedback generated by their questionnaire. One of the analysts on TV last evening noted that much of the NDP platform was based on the results of that very document. If so, smart politics.
> 
> Regarding WR, Danielle Smith thought that voters would follow her & her defectors. While some did, most did not. In typical arrogant politician fashion, what she (& they) didn't understand was that most voters were voting for Wildrose, not for her. She leaves, Wildrose stays, Wildrose gets the votes. It's how Alberta votes. This was summed up nicely in a statement I read this morning about a certain riding in Edmonton (can't recall which one, maybe the one with the university student): the NDP could have run a goat there & it would have been elected.
> 
> I told my children last night before we all went to bed that, politically, it was the worst night of my life.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Humiliating Prentice will leave a bitter taste.


The PCs were so out of touch with the voters, that a hard kick to the gonads was essential. The Prentice/Smith tango meant an NDP vote was the only possible way to deliver that message. 

Had Danielle stayed where she was I think it would have been a two way battle between the Wild Rose and the NDP with the PCs taking maybe half a dozen seats.


----------



## Macfury

For Smith, that's got to sting! She was just months away from being Premiere, but instead jumped to a sinking ship.



eMacMan said:


> The PCs were so out of touch with the voters, that a hard kick to the gonads was essential. The Prentice/Smith tango meant an NDP vote was the only possible way to deliver that message.
> 
> Had Danielle stayed where she was I think it would have been a two way battle between the Wild Rose and the NDP with the PCs taking maybe half a dozen seats.


----------



## Macfury

And the bleeding begins. Here's the change Albertans have apparently been waiting for over the past 44 years:

At the open: TSX sharply lower as energy stocks lead declines - The Globe and Mail



> Several of Canada’s biggest oil and gas companies were down about four per cent in heavy trading.
> 
> Colin Cieszynski, chief market strategist at CME Markets Canada, says investors are reacting to the uncertainty stemming from the change in government in Alberta, where the NDP won a majority.


Alberta oil patch begins new world under NDP government - Business - CBC News



> George Fink, the chief executive of Bonterra Energy is preparing for a board meeting at Raging River Exploration, where he sits on the board. He says *Raging River will be fine, since most of its operations are in Saskatchewan.*
> 
> However his own company, Bonterra, drills for oil in Central Alberta.
> 
> "We'll start to look at the calculations of how much we're likely to be hurt by it. Also, do we consider drilling elsewhere? *We were going to doing 100 per cent of our drilling in Alberta, right now we're likely to not do 100 per cent in Alberta,*


----------



## Vandave

I think the NDP are going to have a very challenging time squaring the Alberta oil industry with their existing platform. The NDP and their supporters have been very vocal against the oil industry, the environment, jobs and Alberta in general. Now that their Alberta fate is tied to the success of oil, it's going to bring some difficult decisions. 

I would feel differently if oil were say $125 a barrel right now because a monkey could balance the Provincial budget and play up a progressive agenda of 'cleaning up' the oil industry. But at $60 a barrel (selling from less when from Alberta) and a $33billion drop in investment, the NDP are going to have to take money where they can get it. I also don't think oil is going back to $100 anytime soon. The growth of production will continue to outstrip demand for years. 

I don't think Alberta has yet felt the full effects of the oil downturn either. People have only just been getting laid off and new investment is only now trickling to a halt. I think this is another headwind for the NDP.


----------



## Macfury

I'm not sure they have to play to their supporters, as there are very few people who truly supported them. Their only options are to:

1) try to convince people they won't destroy the golden goose. Fairly or unfairly, they will be blamed for whatever happens on their watch, cyclical downturn or not.
2) go for broke with typical ruinous abandon, because they won't get a second chance at it.

Renegotiating oil deals at his point makes no sense with low oil prices and the ability to simply pull up stakes and drill elsewhere. What special hand is the NDP holding? The oil sands will still be there following the next election cycle.



Vandave said:


> I think the NDP are going to have a very challenging time squaring the Alberta oil industry with their existing platform. The NDP and their supporters have been very vocal against the oil industry, the environment, jobs and Alberta in general. Now that their Alberta fate is tied to the success of oil, it's going to bring some difficult decisions.
> 
> I would feel differently if oil were say $125 a barrel right now because a monkey could balance the Provincial budget and play up a progressive agenda of 'cleaning up' the oil industry. But at $60 a barrel (selling from less when from Alberta) and a $33billion drop in investment, the NDP are going to have to take money where they can get it. I also don't think oil is going back to $100 anytime soon. The growth of production will continue to outstrip demand for years.
> 
> I don't think Alberta has yet felt the full effects of the oil downturn either. People have only just been getting laid off and new investment is only now trickling to a halt. I think this is another headwind for the NDP.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> I'm not sure they have to play to their supporters, as there are very few people who truly supported them. Their only options are to:
> 
> 1) try to convince people they won't destroy the golden goose. Fairly or unfairly, they will be blamed for whatever happens on their watch, cyclical downturn or not.
> 2) go for broke with typical ruinous abandon, because they won't get a second chance at it.
> 
> Renegotiating oil deals at his point makes no sense with low oil prices and the ability to simply pull up stakes and drill elsewhere. What special hand is the NDP holding? The oil sands will still be there following the next election cycle.


I am mostly speaking the effect of an Alberta NDP on the Federal NDP and also other Provincial parties.

The Alberta NDP will not go for broke because that sinks their entire party both Federally and Provincially. So, they are going to run things smoothly which means not killing the golden goose. Assuming that, I think it's going to be a weight on the NDP outside of Alberta. You can only complain so much about climate change if your party is running the oil Province. etc...

I agree that 40% of Albertans are not naturally NDP supporters.


----------



## Macfury

I don't get a sense that this is a national story, other than the natural drag on the economy created by most NDP governments. It feels like provincial infighting.



Vandave said:


> I am mostly speaking the effect of an Alberta NDP on the Federal NDP and also other Provincial parties.


----------



## SINC

Vandave said:


> I am mostly speaking the effect of an Alberta NDP on the Federal NDP and also other Provincial parties.
> 
> The Alberta NDP will not go for broke because that sinks their entire party both Federally and Provincially. So, they are going to run things smoothly which means not killing the golden goose. Assuming that, I think it's going to be a weight on the NDP outside of Alberta. You can only complain so much about climate change if your party is running the oil Province. etc...
> 
> I agree that 40% of Albertans are not naturally NDP supporters.


A political junkie here in town posted this on my discussion forum by combining the PC and WR vote:

*In case anyone is interested, I ran the riding by riding poll data. Here is what our the legislature would look like with a united conservative movement. 

61 CON, 25 NDP, 1 LIB *

Looks to me more like 60% of Albertans do not support the NDP.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Looks to me more like 60% of Albertans do not support the NDP.


Is that the seat count were the vote awarded according to a Proportional Representation system?


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Is that the seat count were the vote awarded according to a Proportional Representation system?


Nope, that is combining the PC and Wildrose vote in each riding. A united right.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> No. I asked why _the majority_ of Albertans would be pleased with this.
> 
> 
> 
> You're pretty funny when you get excited. If Notley would be like Lougheed in his early days and this is a good thing, then Albertans have hardly been "waiting 44 years for" change.
> 
> 
> 
> Albertans were pissed off with the Premiere for calling an early election, so they punished him and the Wildrose defectors. Since their protest vote can't go to the Liberals, they held their noses and voted for Notley. It'll feel good for a few days to see Prentice and the PCs humbled --then they'll get the four-year NDP hangover. For Ontario, Bob Rae's lingering stench lasted the better part of a decade.



Prentice won't be humbled; he already quit. He took his bat and his ball and went home. A good measure of character this election has turned out to be.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> This will forever stain Alberta. What voters have done is to punish themselves by thinking they were punishing the PC party.



Haters gonna hate. Some things never change.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> *An NDP win? Just shoot me...*


What is your preferred firearm and where would you like me to aim?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> In a strange way, this could be good news for Harper. Come Federal election time, any missteps by the NDP in Alberta between now and then could feed the Conservative propaganda against the federal NDP party...


Not to mention historically voters tend to vote differently in Provincial elections than they do in Federal elections... Alberta being the exception so who knows, all bets are off until the Federal Writ is dropped.

The game is afoot...


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Once an @sshole, always an @sshole. Sort of gives you an idea how much serving the people meant to him.
> 
> The best party won, quite handily. I am pleased, *as are the vast majority of Albertans right now. *😎👍
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually not as the PCs actually won the popular vote just not the seats so your statement is in mathematically incorrect, in terms of those who voted at least.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Actually not as the PCs actually won the popular vote just not the seats so your statement is in mathematically incorrect, in terms of those who voted at least.


Exactly my point. And even some of the people who voted NDP are probably unhappy to see it given this much power.

Hardly anyone remembers David Peterson, but they remember the punishment they visited on him... Bob Rae.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Nope, that is combining the PC and Wildrose vote in each riding. A united right.


Hmmmm.... I wonder what the PR seat count would be....

According to Fair Vote Canada, here's the difference with PR in the Alberta election:



....and the breakdown then into seats....?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Hmmmm.... I wonder what the PR seat count would be....


What is PR?


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> What is PR?


Proportional Representation.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Proportional Representation.


Ahh. I asked before the chart went up. 

Screw proportional representation.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Ahh. I asked before the chart went up.
> 
> Screw proportional representation.


Yep, appointing people to seats just plan sucks. Long live first past the post.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> What is your preferred firearm and where would you like me to aim?


Thx for the offer. I've already discussed ritual seppuku via a dull butter knife with my sensei.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Thx for the offer. I've already discussed ritual seppuku via a dull butter knife with my sensei.


Bob Rae begat some good years with Mike Harris-don't pull the plug yet.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Thx for the offer. I've already discussed ritual seppuku via a dull butter knife with my sensei.


Ok, just offering to help out.

Unfortunately the people of Alberta have a very much uncertain future in front of them which could be death by 1000 "social" programs.

Time will tell.

If she can bring prosperity to Alberta... good on her and her party in Alberta.

But the NDP in Alberta is NOT the federal NDP, even as much the egotist Mulcair wants to bask in the glory as if it was his win and not Rachel Notley's, who I suspect he hardly even knows.

Rachel Notley ran a great campaign and was very personable.

Prentice is a businessman who wanted to run the Province like it was a Corporation and he was the CEO. He was arrogant and had a sense of self-entitlement and was not a politician in the least... 

Remember he gave up being a Federal Minister in favour of having a higher paying job in the private sector before he re-entered politics because he thought it would be a cake walk to become the Premier of Alberta?

He is an arrogant ass and he just lost an election that there was no reason to call.

Shame on him. He got what he deserved.... Unfortunately he took down the PCs and other Conservatives with him.

Aside from his stupid blunder statement today, when asked what he thinks this means to Conservatives in AB, Peter McKay said something to the effect of "They need to do now what we did Federally... unite the right." Which was actually right on point.


----------



## FeXL

One more thing...

Turned on the tube earlier, was still on one of the channels I watched the wrap-up of the election last night on. Calgary news was on, I swallowed hard & listened for a couple minutes.

Green Peace has apparently endorsed the NDP win & is expecting big things regarding alternative energy development in Alberta. Lovely...

On that note, watch electricity prices jump in Alberta, as well. Possibly the implementation of a carbon tax, too.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Aside from his stupid blunder statement today, when asked what he thinks this means to Conservatives in AB, Peter McKay said something to the effect of "They need to do now what we did Federally... unite the right." Which was actually right on point.


Absorbing White Rose in a crossover coup was not the way to do it.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Actually not as the PCs actually won the popular vote just not the seats so your statement is in mathematically incorrect, in terms of those who voted at least.



Please explain to me how in the world you have come to the absurd conclusion that the PC's won the popular vote with only 24% of the popular vote. #mathishard


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yep, appointing people to seats just plan sucks. Long live first past the post.



So you must therefore be happy with Tuesday's results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Ok, just offering to help out.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately the people of Alberta have a very much uncertain future in front of them which could be death by 1000 "social" programs.
> 
> 
> 
> Time will tell.
> 
> 
> 
> If she can bring prosperity to Alberta... good on her and her party in Alberta.
> 
> 
> 
> But the NDP in Alberta is NOT the federal NDP, even as much the egotist Mulcair wants to bask in the glory as if it was his win and not Rachel Notley's, who I suspect he hardly even knows.
> 
> 
> 
> Rachel Notley ran a great campaign and was very personable.
> 
> 
> 
> Prentice is a businessman who wanted to run the Province like it was a Corporation and he was the CEO. He was arrogant and had a sense of self-entitlement and was not a politician in the least...
> 
> 
> 
> Remember he gave up being a Federal Minister in favour of having a higher paying job in the private sector before he re-entered politics because he thought it would be a cake walk to become the Premier of Alberta?
> 
> 
> 
> He is an arrogant ass and he just lost an election that there was no reason to call.
> 
> 
> 
> Shame on him. He got what he deserved.... Unfortunately he took down the PCs and other Conservatives with him.
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from his stupid blunder statement today, when asked what he thinks this means to Conservatives in AB, Peter McKay said something to the effect of "They need to do now what we did Federally... unite the right." Which was actually right on point.



Well they actually tried that tactic last December, when nine Wildrose party members crossed the floor and became PC's. Totally backfired. Not a recommended tactic if you want to keep your job.


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----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Please explain to me how in the world you have come to the absurd conclusion that the PC's won the popular vote with only 24% of the popular vote. #mathishard
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually as mentioned here before, the PC and WR vote combined was nearly 60%. Far more votes favouring the right than the socialists.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> So you must therefore be happy with Tuesday's results.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Far from it.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Actually as mentioned here before, the PC and WR vote combined was nearly 60%. Far more votes favouring the right than the socialists.


Well! Isn't that just interesting. 

In the last Federal Election nearly 60% of votes against the Conservatives. Far more votes favouring the middle and to the left of the spectrum.

So the question then, does this invalidate all the legislation introduced through Omnibus bills by OGL?


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Actually as mentioned here before, the PC and WR vote combined was nearly 60%. Far more votes favouring the right than the socialists.



That was not the statement and you know it. It was made very clear last December that Albertans do not view PC's and Wildrose as the same thing. If they had formed a coalition, you might be sort of correct, but they didn't.


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----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Far from it.



"Yep, appointing people to seats just plan sucks. Long live first past the post."

Methinks white St. Albert man using doublespeak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> "Yep, appointing people to seats just plan sucks. Long live first past the post."
> 
> Methinks white St. Albert man using doublespeak.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Get a grip Frank, whether or not I like the outcome of an election has no relationship to whether or not I like appointed representatives. 

PR goes against freedom of voter choice as to who their unelected representative would be and is a bad choice. End of story.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Get a grip Frank, whether or not I like the outcome of an election has no relationship to whether or not I like appointed representatives.
> 
> 
> 
> PR goes against freedom of voter choice as to who their unelected representative would be and is a bad choice. End of story.



Well I also happen to agree with first past the post as the fairest system of representation we have. Especially when the election outcome goes the way I had hoped.


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----------



## Macfury

That's the difference between the left and the right. I agree with FPTP whether or not the election goes the way I hoped. Principle above opportunism.



fjnmusic said:


> Well I also happen to agree with first past the post as the fairest system of representation we have. Especially when the election outcome goes the way I had hoped.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> That's the difference between the left and the right. I agree with FPTP whether or not the election goes the way I hoped. Principle above opportunism.


However, many of the representational ills and the perceived bias is due to the FPTP system. In the days before Alberta became the economic engine of the country it was " let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark", and the elections was almost over if you voted in Lotus land. I remember my dad, who lived in Ontario for years then moved to Alberta, complained that the East controlled everything, to which I stated that if the West wanted more say, get more people.

The issue that I see is not how we elect the representatives, but how we allow them to govern. I can see of no fairer method than FPTP, since it gives all candidates fair access to the votes, and as a result, access to a seat. It is the concept of our minority governments that causes problems. Maybe the best thing to do is have an equal and elected Provincial and Federal Senate to balance out the parties governance.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Maybe the best thing to do is have an equal and elected Provincial and Federal Senate to balance out the parties governance.


Rps, how do you feel about Right of Recall?


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Rps, how do you feel about Right of Recall?


In theory it seems like a good idea but it is the administration of the thing, without political interferrence or bias that is the issue. Where it is needed the most, I think, is in municipal governments, where many jurisdictions do not have an impeachment process.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting to see if she could be charged for this.

Wynne's blame game backfires



> “(Government) cuts have consequences,” Wynne declared. “We need to learn from and avoid the mistakes of Ontario’s past.”
> 
> Those words are particularly ironic in light of last week’s findings by Ontario auditor general Bonnie Lysyk about the Liberals’ disastrous cutbacks to their winter maintenance program for provincial highways.
> 
> Lysyk reported the Dalton McGuinty government in 2009 started reducing ice- and snow-clearing operations to save money, despite “serious concerns” expressed by ministry of transportation staff, including engineers, of the potentially deadly consequences.


Further:

Highway deaths spiked after Liberal maintenance cuts: AG



> Motorists were put at greater risk on the province’s highways because the cost-cutting Ontario Ministry of Transportation let winter road maintenance deteriorate, an auditor’s report released Wednesday concluded.
> 
> Ontario Auditor Bonnie Lysyk said the OPP have identified cases where poor road maintenance contributed to serious traffic accidents.


More:



> It was a factor,” Lysyk said, *noting about 200 lawsuits have been launched against the transportation ministry.*


M'bold.

Maybe she can...


----------



## FeXL

Missed this back in January.

Kelly McParland: Justin Trudeau’s hidden agenda



> Liberal finance critic Scott Brison revealed elements of the plan to Postmedia’s Lee Berthiaume in London, where the party is holding a caucus retreat. Referring to a recently-announced agreement between the Quebec government and the Caisse de Dépot et Placement, he suggested *the Liberals see Canadian pension plans as a convenient source of money to finance the party’s ambitious infrastructure program.*


M'bold.

What could possibly go wrong?

Oh, & see what the potlicker has to say?



> Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne, an ally of federal leader Justin Trudeau, this week argued for combined federal and provincial spending of $100 billion a year.


----------



## Macfury

Wynne and McGuinty have been pissing and moaning about how infrastructure spending, public transit and green energy pipe dreams will bring jobs! jobs!! jobs!!! The high energy costs they engineered alone have driven out prospective employers. 

Maybe Wynne wants to establish the Ontario pension program simply to raid it for more infrastructure spending.



FeXL said:


> Missed this back in January.
> 
> Kelly McParland: Justin Trudeau’s hidden agenda
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> Oh, & see what the potlicker has to say?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Maybe Wynne wants to establish the Ontario pension program simply to raid it for more infrastructure spending.


Here's your missing [/sarc] tag...


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> However, many of the representational ills and the perceived bias is due to the FPTP system. In the days before Alberta became the economic engine of the country it was " let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark", and the elections was almost over if you voted in Lotus land. I remember my dad, who lived in Ontario for years then moved to Alberta, complained that the East controlled everything, to which I stated that if the West wanted more say, get more people.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue that I see is not how we elect the representatives, but how we allow them to govern. I can see of no fairer method than FPTP, since it gives all candidates fair access to the votes, and as a result, access to a seat. It is the concept of our minority governments that causes problems. Maybe the best thing to do is have an equal and elected Provincial and Federal Senate to balance out the parties governance.



Nice to hear a voice of reason now and again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Nice to hear a voice of reason now and again.


It doesn't sound like your voice at all!


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It doesn't sound like your voice at all!



Nor yours. Funny, that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Well! Isn't that just interesting.
> 
> In the last Federal Election nearly 60% of votes against the Conservatives. Far more votes favouring the middle and to the left of the spectrum.
> 
> So the question then, does this invalidate all the legislation introduced through Omnibus bills by OGL?


If you wish to talk Korean politics, you're in the wrong thread. Come back when you are ready to discuss Canadian leaders.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> That was not the statement and you know it. It was made very clear last December that Albertans do not view PC's and Wildrose as the same thing. If they had formed a coalition, you might be sort of correct, but they didn't.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Had you even bothered to go back and READ you would know those figures were offered by a political junkie on my forum when he added together the collective votes of the PC and WR parties based on the poll by poll results.

No one made any statement regarding a coalition and YOU should know it. Sorry if you cannot keep up on tap yer talk.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> If you wish to talk Korean politics, you're in the wrong thread. Come back when you are ready to discuss Canadian leaders.


Sadly an ar...know-it-all... doesn't know the Governor General is the Commander and Chief of the Military in Canada. As far as the rest of the foolishness...what are you on, about now.

https://www.gg.ca/events.aspx?sc=4&lan=eng



> The governor general is commander-in-chief of Canada. This role has been expressly conferred on the governor general as per the Letters Patent Constituting the Office of Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada (1947). As such, the governor general plays a major role in recognizing the importance of Canada’s military at home and abroad.
> 
> As commander-in-chief, the governor general performs many duties:
> 
> Acts on the recommendation of the prime minister regarding the appointment of the chief of the Defence Staff;
> Acts on recommendations of the minister of National Defence regarding the appointment of Royal colonels of Canadian regiments;
> Approves new military badges and insignia;
> Visits Canadian Forces personnel, their families and loved ones, at home and abroad;
> Presents new colours to Canadian Forces units;
> Awards military honours, such as the Order of Military Merit, Meritorious Service and Military Valour decorations, and the Peacekeeping and Special Service medals; and
> Signs commission scrolls.
> Upon appointment, the commander-in-chief receives the Canadian Forces decoration and becomes a colonel of the Governor General’s Foot Guards, the Governor General’s Horse Guards and the Canadian Grenadier Guards, as well as chancellor and Commander of the Order of Military Merit.


The Prime Minister is a nobody in Canada...just a commoner...just one of rabble on the rightside. I heard today someone say "he was a bigot"...and hated Muslims... 
only what somebody said though.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> The Prime Minister is a nobody in Canada...just a commoner...just one of rabble on the rightside. I heard today someone say "he was a bigot"...and hated Muslims...
> only what somebody said though.


So, you claim that the GG can order Canadian troops into battle all on his own? :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

What exists in a phoney monarchy handbook is so far out of date with reality it isn't even funny. Do some research and see for yourself. No wonder you think our PM is Korean.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Sadly an ar...know-it-all... doesn't know the Governor General is the Commander and Chief of the Military in Canada.





BigDL said:


> The Prime Minister is a nobody in Canada...just a commoner...just one of rabble on the rightside. I heard today someone say "he was a bigot"...and hated Muslims...
> only what somebody said though.


So, you claim that the GG can order Canadian troops into battle all on his own? :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

What exists in a phoney monarchy handbook is so far out of date with reality it isn't even funny. Do some research and see for yourself. No wonder you think our PM is Korean.

Now, run along to the echo chamnber over on Magic and tell yer mentor the little drummer boy how you raised havoc here today, and then you two 15 year olds can gloat with each other about how smart you are.


----------



## heavyall

The Governor General is a ceremonial position. It's there to preserve the tradition of the Monarchy. Actual Monarchy? We do not have that. Neither the Queen nor the GG make any decisions of any kind in our system. The GG's job is to officially announce whatever the Prime Minister tells them to announce.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> The Governor General is a ceremonial position. It's there to preserve the tradition of the Monarchy. Actual Monarchy? We do not have that. Neither the Queen nor the GG make any decisions of any kind in our system. The GG's job is to officially announce whatever the Prime Minister tells them to announce.



Better check your source. The GG actually CAN override the prime minister, it's just that they never do. Since they are appointed by the PM, they don't usually bite the hand that feeds them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> *Sadly an ar...know-it-all... doesn't know the Governor General is the Commander and Chief of the Military in Canada. As far as the rest of the foolishness...what are you on, about now.*
> 
> https://www.gg.ca/events.aspx?sc=4&lan=eng
> 
> The Prime Minister is a nobody in Canada...just a commoner...just one of rabble on the rightside.* I heard today someone say "he was a bigot"...and hated Muslims...
> only what somebody said though*.


Personally I don't see what you are on about. Where does SINC's post mention anything about the "Commander in Chief"??? Not even in your quote.

But yes our "Commander in Chief" is the Governor General and not the Prime Minister. It is an oddity of our colonialist past that still lingers to this day in terms of definition. 

The GG technically (letter of the law) has a lot of power that hasn't been put into practice for more than a century but it is still on the books.

In practice the PM controls things because the GG is just a figurehead and that is the way it has been for a long, long, long time now. Everyone over the age of 20 should know that. Would you wish it to be otherwise?

Whether or not you are being truthful about hearing it from someone else (  ) you just said it and so therefore, knowing what I know about your politics, IMO you believe it to be true and may as well have just stated it yourself.

Why be such a chicken s**t?! Just express your opinion and let the chips fall where they may. You can do that here unlike some other places. Just don't expect any fairy godmother to come and protect, defend and support you. But then again you are a "progressive" so you expect that. beejacon

You are are on your own here, I know that is scary for some but it is liberating and empowering for others.


----------



## screature

screature said:


> What is your preferred firearm and where would you like me to aim?





FeXL said:


> Thx for the offer. I've already discussed ritual *seppuku via a dull butter knife* with my sensei.


Yeessh!  :yikes:

Alternatively how about a BB gun aimed your thigh at about 30ft? That shouldn't sting for too long.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Alternatively how about a BB gun aimed your thigh at about 30ft? That shouldn't sting for too long.


Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. It doesn't...


----------



## Dr.G.

Maybe the GG can create a home-grown Canadian militia and declare martial laws at the SK/AB border? The situation is getting tense there according to the Global News Network and CTV.


----------



## Macfury

In the old days, they might have wanted to come to Ontario. Even if an election were held tomorrow, McGuinty and Wynne have made sure that won't happen for the better part of a decade.


----------



## fjnmusic

Day 3 post election and the sky in Alberta has still not fallen. Oh, and in other news, Omar Khadr is free on bail. Great day for all of us bleeding hearts! 😎


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Day 3 post election and the sky in Alberta has still not fallen. Oh, and in other news, Omar Khadr is free on bail. Great day for all of us bleeding hearts! 😎


With no swearing in yet to give the NDP any real power, nor a cabinet appointed to begin tampering, we are safe until that happens. After that, look out.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Day 3 post election and the sky in Alberta has still not fallen.


Like the guy said falling off the 40th floor of a building... "So far, so good."


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> With no swearing in yet to give the NDP any real power, nor a cabinet appointed to begin tampering, we are safe until that happens. After that, look out.


You won't even know how bad it is for quite a while, The NDP are better than anyone at hiding their messes. By the time you realize the mistake you've made voting them in, they've done damage that will take generations to fix.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> You won't even know how bad it is for quite a while, The NDP are better than anyone at hiding their messes. By the time you realize the mistake you've made voting them in, they've done damage that will take generations to fix.


The great part is that all of the public sector clingers think that they're going to be treated like gold. When the true devastation kicks in and the province's financial ratings plummet, they're going to be the party's first "partners" for austerity.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> You won't even know how bad it is for quite a while, The NDP are better than anyone at hiding their messes. By the time you realize the mistake you've made voting them in, they've done damage that will take generations to fix.



Duh! In recent years the PCs were unable to balance the books during the good times leaving the province absolutely drowning in red ink when oil prices took their over due and meticulously crafted dive.


----------



## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> Day 3 post election and the sky in Alberta has still not fallen.


Perhaps not. However, I woke up to falling snow. In May...


----------



## FeXL

Hitler just found out about the NDP win... 

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyXyxLiDtHo"]Linky.[/ame]


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Perhaps not. However, I woke up to falling snow. In May...


'Tis rather unusual in that the May snow storm is traditionally a 6 inch to 2 foot dump, not the melt on contact skiff this one has produced.


----------



## fjnmusic

So many naysayers. Waldorf and Statler much?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Old man much? Using 40 year-old memes really dates you.



fjnmusic said:


> So many naysayers. Waldorf and Statler much?
> View attachment 56585
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> 'Tis rather unusual in that the May snow storm is traditionally a 6 inch to 2 foot dump, not the melt on contact skiff this one has produced.


Takes a while for hell to freeze over.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Takes a while for hell to freeze over.


It isn't hell yet--will be a bit before the transformation takes.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Takes a while for hell to freeze over.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Day 3 post election and the sky in Alberta has still not fallen. Oh, and in other news, Omar Khadr is free on bail. Great day for all of us bleeding hearts! 😎


You really need to watch this, the "bleeding hearts" bit comes toward the end.

It seems even PET wasn't fond of bleeding hearts....





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It isn't hell yet--will be a bit before the transformation takes.


Thx for the encouragement, coach. :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


>


<snort>


----------



## FeXL

MF: What about Patrick Brown?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> MF: What about Patrick Brown?


He seems an unknown commodity to me--I just can't tell. Christine Elliott might have done better against Wynne, but she was endorsed by that old progressive fart, former premier William Davis, so I guess I am more comfortable with Brown--just not inspired to thoughts of victory.


----------



## fjnmusic

Meanwhile in Alberta











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

People might have hated Redmond. They're just sad about Notley.


----------



## FeXL

Frankly, I see a 3-way tie...



fjnmusic said:


> Meanwhile in Alberta


----------



## chasMac

Macfury said:


> People might have hated Redmond. They're just sad about Notley.


We're not very keen on Redford either. But I hear your complaint about Windows.


----------



## BigDL

chasMac said:


> We're not very keen on Redford either. But I hear your complaint about Windows.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: :lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

chasMac said:


> We're not very keen on Redford either. But I hear your complaint about Windows.


Ha! Nailed me there. 

I just got a call from Redmond this morning actually--said my Windows computer was sending out viruses.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Ha! Nailed me there.
> 
> 
> 
> I just got a call from Redmond this morning actually--said my Windows computer was sending out viruses.



Bwahahahahahahahaha! 😝


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Aboriginal candidate Katherine Swampy runs against racism, hate*












> Katherine Swampy has run up against racism all her life.
> 
> The 29-year-old university graduate grew up at Maskwacis, a First Nation community that serves four reserves south of Edmonton.
> 
> "It's nothing new. I'm aboriginal. I look aboriginal."
> 
> But when she stepped forward to run in the provincial election for the NDP, she was truly shocked by the racism she encountered.
> 
> "It started right from the get-go," she said. "As soon as I started my campaign, I started getting e-mails, I started getting Facebook mail, text messages, and just people — all out, just rude, ignorant behaviour — telling me they didn't want to vote for me because I was native."
> 
> One person told her to "quit trying to turn Alberta into a reserve," she said.
> 
> While some people in the Drayton Valley-Devon constituency closed their doors in her face, others told her they supported the NDP, they wanted to vote NDP, but would not vote for "an Indian."
> 
> "I was quickly reminded there are still people out there who are ignorant and arrogant, and it's a shame."
> 
> In fact, she said, sometimes was hard to tell who were her supporters and who were the racists.
> 
> The comment that hit her hardest was posted on her Facebook page.
> 
> "It said, 'I support Katherine Swampy and I support the NDP. It's just too bad she has a higher chance of turning up missing than she does of winning this constituency.'"
> 
> "That one really struck a nerve," she said, describing how a childhood friend had been murdered in Calgary just months before.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

I would never vote for Katherine Swampy--but only because she was running for the NDP. Sorry she had to put up with such nonsense.


----------



## eMacMan

Ottawa cites hate crime laws when asked about its 'zero tolerance' for Israel boycotters - Politics - CBC News

Harpo at his finest. The comments seem to be well over 95% opposed to this escalation of stupidity. Actually at one point the comments disappeared altogether for several hours.

Let's be blunt, this sort of crap would see Stephen Hawking barred from entering Canada.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Ottawa cites hate crime laws when asked about its 'zero tolerance' for Israel boycotters - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Harpo at his finest. The comments seem to be well over 95% opposed to this escalation of stupidity. Actually at one point the comments disappeared altogether for several hours.
> 
> Let's be blunt, this sort of crap would see Stephen Hawking barred from entering Canada.


You know it might serve you well to count to ten before posting...

Just like the CBC you do yourself a disservice by posting/publishing unvalidated claims before doing more research. It just makes you look lazy and rabidly partisan.

Tories deny plan to use hate crime laws against Israel boycotters



> The federal Conservatives are denying there's any basis to a CBC News story saying the government is signalling its intention to use hate crime laws against Canadian advocacy groups that encourage boycotts of Israel.
> 
> *But the response from the Tories appears to contradict the email comments by a public safety ministry spokeswoman, who cited Canada's hate crime laws when asked specifically by CBC News about the government's "zero tolerance" for Israel boycotters.*
> 
> Asked Tuesday whether the government planned to use hate crime laws against Israel boycotters, Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney said "No," adding there are provisions in the Criminal Code to deal with hate speech and propaganda "and we trust in our justice system to enforce those regulations...
> 
> *Following the publication of the story on Monday, Jeremy Laurin, a spokesman for Blaney, said that "this story is inaccurate and ridiculous. These laws have been on the books for many years and have not changed."​
> 
> Jean-Christophe de Le Rue, director of communications for Public Safety, added that "politicians cannot lay charges — the independent police and public prosecution service do."*


Here is another example of the reasons why media should go to the top and not rely on the statements of some low level bureaucrat as the voice of Government policy before publishing. They do it all the time, just like you.

Who exactly is this "public safety ministry spokeswoman"? No names, just some supposed "public safety ministry spokeswoman".

Yeah that right there is professional journalism at its best.


----------



## eMacMan

I am sure Harper denies everything after his trial balloon turned out to be filled with 99% lead.

That said, for a Harper denial to be meaningful one would have to trust the man. Way too much evidence piling up showing that he is a politician and his word is as worthless as that of any other politician.

The low level crap is just that. We have seen ample evidence that low level types are not allowed to wander from the Harper approved official talking points.

It was a trial balloon, nothing more, nothing less. Incredibly foolish during an election year, but arrogance can lead to foolish actions.

The distressing part is that Harper would have no trouble at all promoting or at least ignoring boycotts against, Russia or Iran, but somehow Israel deserves special treatment?


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I am sure Harper denies everything after his trial balloon turned out to be filled with 99% lead.
> 
> That said, for a Harper denial to be meaningful one would have to trust the man. Way too much evidence piling up showing that he is a politician and his word is as worthless as that of any other politician.
> 
> *The low level crap is just that. We have seen ample evidence that low level types are not allowed to wander from the Harper approved official talking points.*
> 
> It was a trial balloon, nothing more, nothing less. Incredibly foolish during an election year, but arrogance can lead to foolish actions.
> 
> The distressing part is that Harper would have no trouble at all promoting or at least ignoring boycotts against, Russia or Iran, but somehow Israel deserves special treatment?



That statement just goes to show how little you know about working in the government or politics.

Even an apprentice of any political stripe knows that when asked for a comment/answer from the media that should be answered by your boss you just say something to the effect of, "I can't answer that question but if you give me your name and contact information I will have, "so and so (fill in the blanks) get back to you".

Total amateur hour on the part of the CBC and whoever the unnamed spokeswoman was...

More likely the the CBC contacted PSAC to find out who might be willing to usurp their authority and speak unfavorably about the government on behalf of the Ministry and/or the Minister.


----------



## FeXL

It's a sad day for freedom of speech in Canada... :-(

Draw Muhammed Day 2015 – on Parliament Hill, Ottawa



> DESPITE HAVING RECEIVED APPROVAL FOR THIS EVENT FROM THE RCMP HILL SECURITY LAST WEEK, LESS THAN 24 HOURS PRIOR TO THE EVENT, A BUREAUCRAT FROM CANADIAN HERITAGE HAD CALLED TO INFORM ME THAT THIS EVENT IS CANCELLED DUE TO SECURITY CONCERNS. *PLEASE, DO NOT COME TO TRY TO EXERCISE YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN CANADA – THE BUREAUCRATS HAVE CANCELLED IT!!!*


M'bold.

This spineless, emasculated "bureaucrat" should be fired.


----------



## SINC

Yep, cancelling this type of event is akin to submitting willingly to Muslim terrorists. Screw 'em.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> It's a sad day for freedom of speech in Canada... :-(
> 
> Draw Muhammed Day 2015 – on Parliament Hill, Ottawa
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> This spineless, emasculated "bureaucrat" should be fired.





SINC said:


> Yep, *cancelling this type of event is akin to submitting willingly to Muslim terrorists. Screw 'em*.


The 24 hours notice isn't a good thing but we don't need a repeat of what happened in the US.

This kind of event is nothing more than rabble rousing and has no place on Parliament Hill.

Go ahead and hold the event anywhere else but it is not appropriate to be held on Parliament Hill especially since October 22, 2014. It would serve no good purpose other than to further to drive a wedge between moderate Muslim Canadians and the rest of non-Muslims in Canada with a very real threat that it could create more violence.

IMO they should never have been granted access to Parliament Hill in the first place. It is an obvious attempt by the organizers to be provocative and create unrest. Something that is not warranted or wanted in these sensitive times.

Do either of you really think there would have been anything positive to come from this event? Well that is unless you view further segregation/marginalization of mainstream Canadian Muslims from the rest of mainstream Canada as a good thing.

I certainly don't and am quite content with the event being cancelled from occurring on Parliament Hill. Hatred leads to further hatred, history has shown this to be true time and again.

Thank god in Canada, unlike the US, cooler heads can still prevail.

No it isn't, it is respecting non-terrorist Canadian Muslims by not provoking them. Allowing the event to happen would only give credence to the notion that even peaceful, law abiding Muslims aren't wanted here.


----------



## Macfury

Free speech means that you won't be prevented from exercising that freedom--not that you will be guaranteed a venue to exercise it. I can understand the security concern, given what happened in Texas. It would only be worse if violence broke out in a wide open tourist area. Better to let the organizers rent a more secure venue and hire private security.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Do either of you really think there would have been anything positive to come from this event? Well that is unless you view further segregation/marginalization of mainstream Canadian Muslims from the rest of mainstream Canada as a good thing.


Where was the hue & cry about the "segregation/marginalization of mainstream" Christians when "art" like P!ss Christ, among others, was created & displayed?

How many Christians ran off on a vengeful killing spree when P!ss Christ was displayed?

Where was the hue & cry when Charlie Hebdo satirized religions other than Islam?

How many of them ran off on a vengeful killing spree?

Why is it perfectly OK to offend nearly every other religion on the planet without rebuke, yet it's not OK to draw pictures of Mohamed?

Drawing pictures of Mohamed is not hateful, any more than plunking a crucifix in a container of urine is. At the least, it's bad art. At most, it's satire. Either way, it's exercising free speech.

Free speech means open season on anything, anybody, anytime. I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it. Anything less is censorship & completely & entirely unacceptable. The second you back down, you've already lost because once there's a wedge in the door it's nearly impossible to close it again.

Watch the pea. The issue here isn't people who are satirizing Mohamed. The issue is bigoted & intolerant religions.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Free speech means that you won't be prevented from exercising that freedom--not that you will be guaranteed a venue to exercise it. I can understand the security concern, given what happened in Texas. It would only be worse if violence broke out in a wide open tourist area. *Better to let the organizers rent a more secure venue and hire private security.*


Exactly part of my point MF.

Plus also if it were to happen on Parliament Hill it could/would appear to some, that it was a government sanctioned event which could then lead to more jihadism and not less.

These are difficult times and not every decision is going to satisfy everyone and why cooler heads need to prevail and not just act out of ideology but in balance with the times and the current reality.

Freedom of speech also carries responsibility, at least in a post WWII world.

If I know that what I have to say could incite violence and hatred then as a responsible citizen, maybe I should consider the consequences of what I have to say.

Of course true freedom means you can be irresponsible without thought of the consequences but that concept IMO is the the domain of the, ill-informed, uneducated, lazy, bigoted, prejudiced, ideologues etc., etc.

This is part of the reason why psychology remains a pseudoscience and not a hard science, the irrationality and emotion of human beings..


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Where was the hue & cry about the "segregation/marginalization of mainstream" Christians when "art" like P!ss Christ, among others, was created & displayed?


There wasn't simply because "progressives" have an unending need to undermine existing culture. Supporting Muslims but not supporting Christians is part of that. It's not a conspiracy so much as a sacrament offered to ameliorate the deep seated guilt most "progressives" feel.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It's not a conspiracy so much as a sacrament offered to ameliorate the deep seated guilt most "progressives" feel.


 Man, I do not know how you come up with that stuff....

On another, more relevant note to this thread... the thing about certain people, and politicians, that boggles my mind is the sheer audacity revealed by their actions. Case in point: _ Elections Canada has no role to play in encouraging Canadians to vote._ WHAT?  

*Tories' bill strips Elections Canada of power to promote voter turnout*

"The Conservative government is stripping Elections Canada of its authority to encourage Canadians to vote in federal ballots under changes to the agency’s mandate."

* * *​
"The Conservative bill will remove parts of Section 18 of the Elections Act that give the chief electoral officer the authority to provide the public with information on “the democratic right to vote” and to “make the electoral process better known to the public, particularly to those persons and groups most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights.”

* * *​
Voter turnout in the 2011 federal election – slightly more than 61 per cent of eligible voters – was among the lowest in this country’s history."

* * *​
"Pierre Poilievre, the Conservative minister for democratic reform, said the government doesn’t believe Elections Canada has a role to play in boosting voting. “Political candidates who are aspiring for office are far better at inspiring voters to get out and cast their ballot than our government bureaucracies,”​
(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

Good news! Thanks for posting.

It made about as much sense as Agriculture Canada encouraging people to eat.



CubaMark said:


> On another, more relevant note to this thread... the thing about certain people, and politicians, that boggles my mind is the sheer audacity revealed by their actions. Case in point: _ Elections Canada has no role to play in encouraging Canadians to vote._ WHAT?
> 
> *Tories' bill strips Elections Canada of power to promote voter turnout*
> 
> "The Conservative government is stripping Elections Canada of its authority to encourage Canadians to vote in federal ballots under changes to the agency’s mandate."
> 
> * * *​
> "The Conservative bill will remove parts of Section 18 of the Elections Act that give the chief electoral officer the authority to provide the public with information on “the democratic right to vote” and to “make the electoral process better known to the public, particularly to those persons and groups most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights.”
> 
> * * *​
> Voter turnout in the 2011 federal election – slightly more than 61 per cent of eligible voters – was among the lowest in this country’s history."
> 
> * * *​
> "Pierre Poilievre, the Conservative minister for democratic reform, said the government doesn’t believe Elections Canada has a role to play in boosting voting. “Political candidates who are aspiring for office are far better at inspiring voters to get out and cast their ballot than our government bureaucracies,”​
> (Globe & Mail)


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> _“Political candidates who are aspiring for office are far better at inspiring voters to get out and cast their ballot than our government bureaucracies,”​_


No argument. Take, for instance, Shiny Pony. His mere presence in the fray should inspire voters to come out in droves to vote for anyone but him...


----------



## Macfury

Any fool who doesn't understand the electoral process in Canada ought not to vote.


----------



## heavyall

It's so fun when Mark posts "news" that's over 14 months out of date. 

Besides, Elections Canada has been operating as a de facto branch of the Liberal Party of Canada for a long time, they were long overdue to be reigned in to protect the democratic process.


----------



## Macfury

I think he's doing it deliberately, just to draw attention to himself.

"The CMN News Network--bringing you last year's news... TODAY!



heavyall said:


> It's so fun when Mark posts "news" that's over 14 months out of date.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Where was the hue & cry about the "segregation/marginalization of mainstream" Christians when "art" like P!ss Christ, among others, was created & displayed?
> 
> How many Christians ran off on a vengeful killing spree when P!ss Christ was displayed?
> 
> Where was the hue & cry when Charlie Hebdo satirized religions other than Islam?
> 
> How many of them ran off on a vengeful killing spree?
> 
> Why is it perfectly OK to offend nearly every other religion on the planet without rebuke, yet it's not OK to draw pictures of Mohamed?
> 
> Drawing pictures of Mohamed is not hateful, any more than plunking a crucifix in a container of urine is. At the least, it's bad art. At most, it's satire. Either way, it's exercising free speech.
> 
> Free speech means open season on anything, anybody, anytime. I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it. Anything less is censorship & completely & entirely unacceptable. The second you back down, you've already lost because once there's a wedge in the door it's nearly impossible to close it again.
> 
> Watch the pea. The issue here isn't people who are satirizing Mohamed. *The issue is bigoted & intolerant* religions.


I can agree with this part of your post:

*The issue is bigoted & intolerant...* but replace the word religions with* people* and then you have it right.

Christianity had/has plenty of bigoted and intolerant doctrines, most recently in Ireland by some. History has shown it to be true time and again no matter the religion/belief/philosophy, etc. At the end of the day it comes down to who wants power and to rule the roost and ultimately that comes down to one person or a select group of individuals/people. Well except in democracies and even then it isn't all that fundamentally different.

So in the end movements/religions/political parties, etc. are all based on individual people, many of whom do not accept all the "fundamentalist" ideals of any of them but just choose to affiliate themselves with one or the other based on how closely they come to their own individual belief/philosophy/morals/ethics/political persuasion, etc.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> I can agree with this part of your post:
> 
> *The issue is bigoted & intolerant...* but replace the word religions with* people* and then you have it right.


SS, DP. You're arguing semantics.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> SS, DP. You're arguing semantics.


Not at all. It matters. If you don't agree then fine we shall have to agree to disagree.

Freedom of speech is relative to the place where it is spoken.

Just as one example in our own Parliament you cannot call another MP by name, or a liar, or refer to their absence on a given day or use "un-parliamentary" language of which there are many words that are verboten.

So no I don't think that not allowing an anti-Muslim event to be conducted on Parliament Hill is a restriction of freedom of speech. They can say whatever they want anywhere else.

For example, if you were at at my house and started spouting off anti-conservative slurs I have every right to tell you to f**k off and get out of my house, you can say whatever you want, but not without repercussion or certain restrictions depending on the location.

That is also freedom. I have the right to tell you I don't want to hear what you have to say in this place or at this point in time. Just try as white person calling an Afro-American a n***er in this day and age at a rally against police brutality against Afro-Americans and see how well that goes... Go somewhere else and tell someone else.

Freedom of speech, like all freedoms, also comes with responsibility.

It may not be the way you like it but it is a reality, even if you live in a completely ideological mind set it is still the case and if you wish it to be otherwise, again we will have to agree to disagree.

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.


Yes. Yes, it does. However, you are missing the difference in scenarios. It may be a fine point but it is a fair one.

I have a 25 year old, tattered denim vest that I wear when I ride. It has dozens of patches on it, some memorial, some just plain fun. A few even have profanity on them. If I take the Hawg to school to watch one of my children play basketball, I take that vest off & tuck it into a saddlebag because there is some language which is not appropriate for grade schoolers. 

In addition, there are school rules against the sort of language on some of the patches on my vest. To wear that vest in school would be to break a rule.

You noted your rules of Parliament story. Fine. There are laws in place that must be followed in Parliament. No problem. We can both cite probably hundreds of situations where there are rules & laws governing speech, behaviour, dress code, who knows what else, & these rules should be respected, freedom of speech be damned. No argument.

However, the Mohammed cartoon session on Parliament Hill is a completely different kettle of fish. The difference is that the latter situation doesn't fracture any rules. There are no Canadian (or American) laws stating you can't draw a cartoon of Mohammed. Period.

That's why cancelling the event on Parliament Hill was censorship & is a loss of freedom of speech.

I cannot put it any simpler.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> However, the Mohammed cartoon session on Parliament Hill is a completely different kettle of fish. The difference is that the latter situation doesn't fracture any rules. There are no Canadian (or American) laws stating you can't draw a cartoon of Mohammed. Period.
> 
> That's why cancelling the event on Parliament Hill was censorship & is a loss of freedom of speech.
> 
> I cannot put it any simpler.


I agree with you, but the event was not canceled because of the nature of the event, but of the perception of a security threat and that is covered off in the rules already.

GENERAL RULES ON THE USE OF PARLIAMENT HILL - Organization Structure - About Us



> APPLICATION
> The Committee reserves the right to change the conditions included in the authorization at any time and without prior notice.* It can also cancel all activities for security reasons. *The Government of Canada is not liable for any loss or inconvenience which may result from any changes or cancellation.


I would be more convinced it was a FOS issue if these rules were being applied inconsistently--that is, if other similar events were able to proceed, while this one was repeatedly quashed.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I agree with you, but the event was not canceled because of the nature of the event, but of the perception of a security threat and that is covered off in the rules already.


Was it? The only thing I've been able to find online is that a permit may not have been issued by Canada Heritage for the event. While this may or may not be true, the original post from Xanthippa’s Chamberpot noted that the RCMP had given the go ahead for the event. That said, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the right hand didn't know what the left was doing. 

Either way, security (or lack thereof) does not seem to be the reason for the cancellation.


----------



## Macfury

Not that the RCMP is composed of bright sparks, but perhaps they received some sort of tip that the event was about to be attacked. Better that happen in an enclosed area instead of open space. Either way, Canadian Heritage is supposed to issue the event permit, not the RCMP.




FeXL said:


> Was it? The only thing I've been able to find online is that a permit may not have been issued by Canada Heritage for the event. While this may or may not be true, the original post from Xanthippa’s Chamberpot noted that the RCMP had given the go ahead for the event. That said, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the right hand didn't know what the left was doing.
> 
> Either way, security (or lack thereof) does not seem to be the reason for the cancellation.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Yes. Yes, it does. However, you are missing the difference in scenarios. It may be a fine point but it is a fair one.
> 
> I have a 25 year old, tattered denim vest that I wear when I ride. It has dozens of patches on it, some memorial, some just plain fun. A few even have profanity on them. If I take the Hawg to school to watch one of my children play basketball, I take that vest off & tuck it into a saddlebag because there is some language which is not appropriate for grade schoolers.
> 
> In addition, there are school rules against the sort of language on some of the patches on my vest. To wear that vest in school would be to break a rule.
> 
> You noted your rules of Parliament story. Fine. There are laws in place that must be followed in Parliament. No problem. We can both cite probably hundreds of situations where there are rules & laws governing speech, behaviour, dress code, who knows what else, & these rules should be respected, freedom of speech be damned. No argument.
> 
> However, the Mohammed cartoon session on Parliament Hill is a completely different kettle of fish. *The difference is that the latter situation doesn't fracture any rules. There are no Canadian (or American) laws stating you can't draw a cartoon of Mohammed. *Period.
> 
> That's why cancelling the event on Parliament Hill was censorship & is a loss of freedom of speech.
> 
> I cannot put it any simpler.


Agreed no formal laws but you neglected one point I made:



> Just try as white person calling an Afro-American a n***er in this day and age at a rally against police brutality against Afro-Americans and see how well that goes... Go somewhere else and tell someone else.


It is the same when comes to drawing Mohammed cartoons. It is verboten for a significant population and could be the impetus for violence.

So why would/should the Government of Canada sanction/allow such an event to take place on Parliament Hill knowing the possible consequences and repercussions?

The correct decision was made IMO because those who want to conduct such an event can do it elsewhere. It is not their* right *to do it on Parliament Hill.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I agree with you, but the event was not canceled because of the nature of the event, but of the perception of a security threat and that is covered off in the rules already.
> 
> GENERAL RULES ON THE USE OF PARLIAMENT HILL - Organization Structure - About Us
> 
> I would be more convinced it was a FOS issue if these rules were being applied inconsistently--that is, if other similar events were able to proceed, while this one was repeatedly quashed.





FeXL said:


> Was it? The only thing I've been able to find online is that a permit may not have been issued by Canada Heritage for the event. While this may or may not be true, the original post from Xanthippa’s Chamberpot noted that the RCMP had given the go ahead for the event. That said, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the right hand didn't know what the left was doing.
> 
> Either way, security (or lack thereof) does not seem to be the reason for the cancellation.


MF you are correct it is a security issue.

If this event were to be allowed on Parliament Hill it would mean that through social media and other forms of advertising the promotion of this event would be publicized. Therefore the Government of Canada or at least Parliament would be culpable for any violence that might occur at the event becuase they provided a venue for it to happen.

Not to mention, the event could lead to further radicalization of Canadian Muslims, i.e., "They allowed this to happen?! It just goes to show that they have no respect for our religion! Damn them all to Hell!! or something like that.

FeXL I see no good at all coming from such an event happening on Parliament Hill and only very significant down sides, so once again IMO the correct decision was made.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> It is verboten for a significant population and could be the impetus for violence.


But it's not against the law to use that word. Bad taste? Yes, if you're white. If you're black, the word is tossed around like a badge of honour.



screature said:


> So why would/should the Government of Canada sanction/allow such an event to take place on Parliament Hill knowing the possible consequences and repercussions?


To show that the government of Canada stands behind free speech & won't be bullied by adherents to a bigoted, intolerant religion.



screature said:


> The correct decision was made IMO because those who want to conduct such an event can do it elsewhere. It is not their* right *to do it on Parliament Hill.


Rights, privileges, whatever. Again, you are delving into semantics. Keep your eye on the pea: Drawing a cartoon of any religious figurehead is not against the law in Canada or the US. Period. It doesn't matter if it's drawn on the wall of an outhouse in backwoods Saskatchewan or in a sketchbook on Parliament Hill.

If, in fact, this event was cancelled because of fear of offending someone through a completely lawful act, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

If it was cancelled due to improper paperwork, then I hope the organizers apply for said paperwork, approval is received & the event is carried on. If approval is denied then that wedge has just pushed to door open a little further.

And, the only reason it may be a security issue is because of Islam. Don't fall into their trap...


----------



## FeXL

Further on Freedom of Speech.

"There Is No More Molly." Or Luz.



> So I was heartened to see in my own country this event scheduled for today in Ottawa:
> 
> _Come and join us in drawing Muhammed, the Pope's Mother, Buddha with headphones and or any other religious/political figure!
> 
> Let's exercise our freedom to blaspheme — while we still can!!!
> 
> We will meet by the East entrance of The Hill Where the October 22nd shooter entered The Hill) at 1 pm and walk to the North-East corner of the lawn, so we are very close to the route the shooter took. There, I will set up the table (and tent, if it rains) and we can get down to some blasphemous art!
> 
> Please, spread the word as far and wide as you can.
> 
> Alexandra​_
> Can you guess what happened next, boys and girls?
> 
> _After having been given (last week) the go ahead with the Draw Muhammed Day on Parliament Hill for tomorrow, 20th of May, by the RCMP security people, I have just received a phone call (at 5:25 pm) from Canadian Heritage cancelling the event due to 'security concerns'.​_
> *And to reprise Laura Rosen Cohen's line "security concerns" are the new shut-up.* As a commenter at Vlad Tepes' blog writes:
> 
> _This is exactly the modus operandi employed by France's government – to kill off any initiative by our friends at Riposte Laique – they give the permission for a demonstration, assembly etc. and then, when everything is organised, like 5 minutes before the event is supposed to start, they cancel it for "security reasons".​_
> So don't worry, you still have freedom of speech - until five minutes before you're scheduled to exercise it.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

More issues with Senate members' spending.

Auditor will urge Senate to send 10 misspending cases to RCMP



> Canada’s auditor general will recommend that the Senate refer 10 cases of alleged misspending by former and current senators to the RCMP, naming names and detailing the disturbing findings that have raised concerns of criminality.
> 
> *The report will also contain about a dozen recommendations to help the upper chamber prevent further abuse of expenses.*
> 
> Those 10 senators — the majority of whom are retired — have been informed in writing that Michael Ferguson’s final report on Senate spending will single them out, and will urge the upper chamber to call in the Mounties over their expense files, the Citizen has learned. Ferguson is also expected to explain in detail what his auditors found in each of those 10 cases.


M'bold.

Long overdue...


----------



## FeXL

Every politician on the planet should read this.

Not Yours To Give-Davy Crockett on The Role Of Government



> Money with [politicians] is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it.


Too long the Earth has been missing politicos with this sort of integrity...


----------



## fjnmusic

So Harper does not with to debate on the three biggest networks in Canada with the leaders of the parties. Such a true gentleman. What a leader.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> So Harper does not with to debate on the three biggest networks in Canada with the leaders of the parties. Such a true gentleman. What a leader.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He may just be. I have worked in a number of elections and over all, unless there is a complete melt down on the scales of Mulroney's "you had a choice" and these are few, I don't think many people change their voting position. I think depending how this shakes out he will probably come around. What is strategic here is the " anybody but" vote. This may hurt him if it swings to a cresting party ( read NDP vs Libs or Libs vs NDP ) not being apart of this may shed light on an unconsidered party leader.

What is interesting is where Harper is debating......


----------



## Macfury

I can understand Harper's concerns. Most of those debates are designed to spoonfeed the Liberal candidate with questions designed almost exclusively to kowtow to the populist portion of the Liberal platform.



Rps said:


> He may just be. I have worked in a number of elections and over all, unless there is a complete melt down on the scales of Mulroney's "you had a choice" and these are few, I don't think many people change their voting position. I think depending how this shakes out he will probably come around. What is strategic here is the " anybody but" vote. This may hurt him if it swings to a cresting party ( read NDP vs Libs or Libs vs NDP ) not being apart of this may shed light on an unconsidered party leader.
> 
> What is interesting is where Harper is debating......


----------



## CubaMark

Rps said:


> He may just be. I have worked in a number of elections and over all, unless there is a complete melt down on the scales of Mulroney's "you had a choice" and these are few, I don't think many people change their voting position.


Would you say the Alberta election is the exception, then? Certainly many people were counting Notley's performance in the debate as game-changing...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Would you say the Alberta election is the exception, then? Certainly many people were counting Notley's performance in the debate as game-changing...


Notley could have picked her nose during the debate and still received the protest vote.


----------



## Rps

CubaMark said:


> Would you say the Alberta election is the exception, then? Certainly many people were counting Notley's performance in the debate as game-changing...


I don't think the debate changed people's vote ..... Anyone from Alberta care to comment please.


----------



## FeXL

Bingo!



Macfury said:


> I can understand Harper's concerns. Most of those debates are designed to spoonfeed the Liberal candidate with questions designed almost exclusively to kowtow to the populist portion of the Liberal platform.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I don't think the debate changed people's vote ..... Anyone from Alberta care to comment please.


Can't comment on the debate, never saw it. Doubt that it had much effect either way, voters had their minds made up long before.

As to why NDP in Alberta, as has been noted before, disenchantment with the status quo. Alberta votes out tired & worn out political partys rather than electing new ones. This election was not so much a ringing endorsement of the NDP as a public hanging of the Conservatives. If there would have been the equivalent of provincial Rhino Party candidates, they would have been in power today. In many people's minds there was no one else to vote for.

I think the biggest contributor to the unrest was the budget that saw no real reductions in spending but added 50-odd tax increases. The arrogant comment from Prentice to "look in the mirror". Alberta Liberals are tainted goods (PET). Fear that Wildrose candidates might cross.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> I don't think the debate changed people's vote ..... Anyone from Alberta care to comment please.



I don't think the Alberta Election was really a protest vote. If it were, the Wildrose should have picked up many more seats. This was about looking for a visionary leader, which the voters found in Rachel Notley. Enough for a majority. This was no accident, and the debate was influential.

Chickening out of the debate the same way he chickens out of media scrums just reinforces that Harper is not really leadership material, and never has been. What is he so afraid of?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rps

Fun,used, the trouble with a political strategy is that it is based on party intell. Mr. Harper may have more info than we. That said, again, where he is debating is more important than who.


----------



## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> I don't think the Alberta Election was really a protest vote. If it were, the Wildrose should have picked up many more seats. This was about looking for a visionary leader, which the voters found in Rachel Notley. Enough for a majority. This was no accident, and the debate was influential.


I disagree. It certainly was a protest vote. Recall the elections for the last 110 years. Four changes of the guard in over a century & each one the direct result of pissing off the populace. 

That excuse for a budget was one that Notley & crew or the Liberals would have been proud to have authored. I didn't speak to a single person in the area who liked the budget. Left, right, nor centre. Prentice was arrogant & all of the Wildrosers that crossed the floor tainted the Conservative's even more.

I don't see Notley as visionary. She conducted a nice, _safe_ campaign, didn't stick her foot in her mouth like Prentice & rode the wave of displeasure to the top. You notice that none of the controversial points made it to the news? Not a single word about the NDP stance on AGW, no controversial NDP solutions as to how to balance the budget, nothing.

Urbanites, for whatever reason, are afraid of the Wildrose & the vote tally shows that.



fjnmusic said:


> Chickening out of the debate the same way he chickens out of media scrums just reinforces that Harper is not really leadership material, and never has been. What is he so afraid of?


He's not chickening out, to repeat it once more. His decision is strategic. He knows damn well he won't get a fair shake in the left biased MSM & is avoiding it completely. I don't blame him one single bit. If it was me in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing.

Screw the MSM. They've earned everything they're not getting.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I disagree. It certainly was a protest vote. Recall the elections for the last 110 years. Four changes of the guard in over a century & each one the direct result of pissing off the populace.
> 
> That excuse for a budget was one that Notley & crew or the Liberals would have been proud to have authored. I didn't speak to a single person in the area who liked the budget. Left, right, nor centre. Prentice was arrogant & all of the Wildrosers that crossed the floor tainted the Conservative's even more.
> 
> Urbanites, for whatever reason, are afraid of the Wildrose & the vote tally shows that.


Had the Wildrose party remained intact, it could have won the election--or at worst, reduced the NDP protest vote to a minority government level.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Had the Wildrose party remained intact, it could have won the election--or at worst, reduced the NDP protest vote to a minority government level.


Agreed. Smith has to be kicking herself in the butt for that. Stupidest political move this province has ever seen.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Agreed. Smith has to be kicking herself in the butt for that. Stupidest political move this province has ever seen.


I thin it may win for the country for the calendar year.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> He's not chickening out, to repeat it once more. His decision is strategic. He knows damn well he won't get a fair shake in the left biased MSM & is avoiding it completely. I don't blame him one single bit. If it was me in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Screw the MSM. They've earned everything they're not getting.



He is chickening out. Like Prentice, if Harper doesn't have total control, he takes his bat and his ball and goes home. He's not even a Conservative; just a Reform/Alliance member in a fancy suit. He is afraid somebody might contradict or expose him, which is why he avoids media scrums. That is not leadership. It's cowardice. He might think where he debates is important, but that's not what the average Canadian will see. They will see a man who does want to face the press and take responsibility. Canadians are growing tired of it. If he wins another term, it will be because of vote slitting on the left, not because of the merits of Mr. Harper or his party.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Had the Wildrose party remained intact, it could have won the election--or at worst, reduced the NDP protest vote to a minority government level.



Well if their platform was so solid, why didn't they stay intact? Solid as a house of cards, more like.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Well if their platform was so solid, why didn't they stay intact? Solid as a house of cards, more like.


The organization was not solid. It was all on the party leader.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> He's not even a Conservative; just a Reform/Alliance member in a fancy suit.


If he was that, I would have donated to the party instead of merely guaranteeing my vote.



fjnmusic said:


> He is chickening out. Like Prentice, if Harper doesn't have total control, he takes his bat and his ball and goes home. He's not even a Conservative; just a Reform/Alliance member in a fancy suit. He is afraid somebody might contradict or expose him, which is why he avoids media scrums. That is not leadership. It's cowardice. He might think where he debates is important, but that's not what the average Canadian will see. They will see a man who does want to face the press and take responsibility.


You are so steeped in insular, hidebound thinking that you can't see how badly Mr. Harper is treated by the press or how unfairly he is treated in debates by mainstream news sources. For the most part, their view is your view, so you simply see it as normal. 



fjnmusic said:


> Canadians are growing tired of it.


You are, at least.



fjnmusic said:


> If he wins another term, it will be because of vote slitting on the left, not because of the merits of Mr. Harper or his party.


What does it matter? That's how the NDP won in Alberta and you called it a solid victory.


----------



## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> He is chickening out.


We'll just have to agree to disagree, then.



fjnmusic said:


> He's not even a Conservative; just a Reform/Alliance member in a fancy suit.


I'm trying to figger out what this has to do with him not wanting to debate on the MSM. Ad hom., much?



fjnmusic said:


> He is afraid somebody might contradict or expose him, which is why he avoids media scrums.


Wow, conspiracy theory, much? If he has any skeletons in his closet, the media can find them without him being involved in an MSM debate.



fjnmusic said:


> That is not leadership. It's cowardice. He might think where he debates is important, but that's not what the average Canadian will see. *They will see a man who does want to face the press and take responsibility.* Canadians are growing tired of it. If he wins another term, it will be because of vote slitting on the left, not because of the merits of Mr. Harper or his party.


First, regarding the complete statement, I guess we'll see, won't we?

Second, re: the bold. I find the irony here stunning. Obama & Hillary are the worst offenders when it comes to complete control of the media & fear of open, unscripted, hardball questions, yet you are strangely silent in the American Political Thread on the topic.


----------



## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> Well if their platform was so solid, why didn't they stay intact? Solid as a house of cards, more like.


In any equation, there are dependent & independent factors. Deciding in which category the people in a political party belong is left as an exercise for the reader...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Every politician on the planet should read this.
> 
> Not Yours To Give-Davy Crockett on The Role Of Government
> 
> 
> 
> Too long the Earth has been missing politicos with this sort of integrity...


This bit really grabbed my attention. 



> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"I have given you," continued Crockett, "an imperfect account of what he said. Long before he was through, I was convinced that I had done wrong. He wound up by saying: "'So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. *It is precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people.......*[/FONT]


True then, even truer today and Harper is by far the biggest offender at least North of the border. As proof of Harper's anti-constitutional activities there are: The Internet Anti Privacy Bill, The Second Class Canadian Citizenship Bill, Bill C51 and The FATCA IGA, all clear violations of the Canadian Constitution and/or Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree, then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to figger out what this has to do with him not wanting to debate on the MSM. Ad hom., much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, conspiracy theory, much? If he has any skeletons in his closet, the media can find them without him being involved in an MSM debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, regarding the complete statement, I guess we'll see, won't we?
> 
> 
> 
> Second, re: the bold. I find the irony here stunning. Obama & Hillary are the worst offenders when it comes to complete control of the media & fear of open, unscripted, hardball questions, yet you are strangely silent in the American Political Thread on the topic.



Perhaps I am silent on the American Thread because I don't really follow American politics, being Canadian and all. I'm not sure what Obama and Hillary have to do with anything; I certainly didn't vote for them.

My contention is that Harper is afraid to actually debate unless the thing is pre-scripted. He's not good at improv because he's basically a control freak. He even admits this in a lampoon segment when Rick Mercer did the sleepover thing at 24 Sussex back in the early days of his prime ministership.

http://youtu.be/2KMcEwsT-10


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----------



## FeXL

As I said, agree to disagree.



fjnmusic said:


> My contention is that Harper is afraid to actually debate unless the thing is pre-scripted.


And Trudeau is wiping his brow in relief...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> And Trudeau is wiping his brow in relief...


"He'll take questions only on Katimavik this hour..."


----------



## CubaMark

_Interesting poll numbers came out last Friday...._

*Trudeau's Uninspired Platform Makes Mulcair the Obvious Choice*

_As the National Post's Michael Den Tandt reminded us this week, "Tom Mulcair may be the next prime minister" of Canada.

A new EKOS poll that has the NDP ahead for the very first time since Mulcair became its leader. The once neglected party is on top at 29.6 per cent support, followed by the Conservatives at 28.1 per cent and Liberals, last, at 26.1 per cent. To the NDP, that has almost never been competitive in a national political poll; this is uncharted territory for them. Only during the Ed Broadbent era has the party enjoyed such high numbers._​
(HuffPo)


----------



## Macfury

Great vote-splitting potential for NDP/Libs!


----------



## heavyall

EKOS Poll. As always, to get the real numbers from their data, you subtract 5 points from the LPC tally and add them to the CPC.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> EKOS Poll. As always, to get the real numbers from their data, you subtract 5 points from the LPC tally and add them to the CPC.


Big problem with all such polls is they never include: "None of the Above"

I suspect that option would be the hands down winner every time.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> EKOS Poll. As always, to get the real numbers from their data, you subtract 5 points from the LPC tally and add them to the CPC.


The cheapskate poll used automated telephone responses with recorded questions. I would simply have hung up because I have no time for that nonsense.

This skews the poll heavily in favour of non-working NDP respondents.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> The cheapskate poll used automated telephone responses with recorded questions. I would simply have hung up because I have no time for that nonsense.
> 
> This skews the poll heavily in favour of non-working NDP respondents.


Dewey Wins!


----------



## FeXL

Ftfy... 



macfury said:


> This skews the poll heavily in favour of non-working NDP *dependents*.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Dewey Wins!


Dewey beat Truman?!?


----------



## Macfury

Strom Thurmond should have won that election!


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> But it's not against the law to use that word. Bad taste? Yes, if you're white. If you're black,* the word is tossed around like a badge of honour.*
> 
> *To show that the government of Canada stands behind free speech & won't be bullied by adherents to a bigoted, intolerant religion.*
> 
> Rights, privileges, whatever. Again, you are delving into semantics. Keep your eye on the pea: Drawing a cartoon of any religious figurehead is not against the law in Canada or the US. Period. It doesn't matter if it's drawn on the wall of an outhouse in backwoods Saskatchewan or in a sketchbook on Parliament Hill.
> 
> If, in fact, this event was cancelled because of fear of offending someone through a completely lawful act, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> If it was cancelled due to improper paperwork, then I hope the organizers apply for said paperwork, approval is received & the event is carried on. If approval is denied then that wedge has just pushed to door open a little further.
> 
> And, *the only reason it may be a security issue is because of Islam*. Don't fall into their trap...


By doing so they took over the use and ownership of the word away from bigoted whites. That is what that is about.

The ones who are bigoted and intolerant are the ones who would have participated in the cartoon drawing event. They would have been showing their true stripes as bigots and not doing it to display their freedom of speech, it would clearly demonstrate their anti-Muslim agenda and would have had nothing to do with freedom of speech. I for one am happy that the powers that be at Parliament did not provide them with a soap box to stand on. 

It seems you are the one falling into their "trap'/web of intolerance, bigotry and hatred.

No not Islam as a whole, a sect within Islam. Were all Christians Crusaders at the time? No.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> The ones who are bigoted and intolerant are the ones who would have participated in the cartoon drawing event. They would have been showing their true stripes as bigots and not doing it to display their freedom of speech, it would clearly demonstrate their anti-Muslim agenda and would have had nothing to do with freedom of speech.


I disagree. Some might be doing it out of provocation, others to draw a line in the sand about what it means to be a free Canadian and what is permissible here. Either way, Christians in Canada have experienced far worse provocation through art displays that were government-funded--nobody called the perpetrators bigots.


----------



## FeXL

Screature, you surprise me. While I don't always agree with what you write, I can usually understand your perspective. In this particular instance you are way off base. 

It's not people participating in a legal protest who are out killing Islamists.



screature said:


> The ones who are bigoted and intolerant are the ones who would have participated in the cartoon drawing event. They would have been showing their true stripes as bigots and not doing it to display their freedom of speech, it would clearly demonstrate their anti-Muslim agenda and would have had nothing to do with freedom of speech.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I disagree. *Some might be doing it out of provocation, others to draw a line in the sand about what it means to be a free Canadian and what is permissible here.* Either way, *Christians in Canada have experienced far worse provocation through art displays that were government-funded--nobody called the perpetrators bigots.*


I disagree, no level headed fair and just thinking Canadian would do so considering the event of October 22nd.

Again I disagree. When were anti-Christians ever granted the right to promote bigotry toward Christian's on Parliament Hill?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I disagree, no level headed fair and just thinking Canadian would do so considering the event of October 22nd.
> 
> Again I disagree. When were anti-Christians ever granted the right to promote bigotry toward Christian's on Parliament Hill?


First, it was not anti-Christian so much as it was considered provocative, disrespectful and intolerant to Christians. It occurred in art galleries and museums directly funded by government. Christian groups were told to keep their shirts on as the museums were simply exercising their rights to artistic freedom.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Screature, you surprise me. While I don't always agree with what you write, I can usually understand your perspective. In this particular instance *you are way off base. *
> 
> *It's not people participating in a legal protest who are out killing Islamists.*


So you say. You have your opinion and I have mine. Neither of us are asking or expecting the Parliament of Canada to provide us with a platform to espouse bigoted, intolerant, and potentially violence generating actions, drawing or remarks.

As I said before, and you agreed to, freedom of speech carries responsibility and it would have been IMO irresponsible of the powers at be at Parliament to provide a platform form bigoted anti-Islam people to spout and promote their bigotry.

You seem to think that freedom of speech exists in a ideological vacuum that is completely separate and a supreme right regardless of history and/or current events. It is not IMO.

Also it was not meant to be a protest, it was meant to be directly disrespectful by provocation. You can protest against Islamist extremists without directly offending all of Islam by doing something that is verboten in their religion.

You are a smart man FeXL so don't play dumb just for the sake of being "right" in an online debate.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> First, it was not anti-Christian so much as it was considered provocative, disrespectful and intolerant to Christians. It occurred in art galleries and museums directly funded by government. Christian groups were told to keep their shirts on as the museums were simply exercising their rights to artistic freedom.


Ok so Parliament had nothing to do with it.

So what was it exactly?


----------



## screature

"Fatty, fatty 2x4 couldn't get through the kitchen door."

That is a legal thing to say, is it respectful or an intelligent thing to say? No.

Just because it is legal to say something does not mean it is a good idea for Parliament to be seen as indirectly advocating it by willfully providing a venue for it to be said.

Imagine if an anti-obesity group requested that they stage a rally against fat people and obesity on Parliament Hill, do you think that the powers that be in Parliament should provide them with a platform to pontificate from?


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> So you say. You have your opinion and I have mine. Neither of us are asking or expecting the Parliament of Canada to provide us with a platform to espouse bigoted, intolerant, and potentially violence generating actions, drawing or remarks.


And yet, from the Ceremonial and Canadian Symbols Promotion page of the Canadian Heritage website:



> to actively encourage the participation of Canadians in the celebration of their country and, in the process, to heighten an awareness of and pride in Canada by increasing their knowledge of its institutions, heritage, symbols, citizenship, culture and values.


I believe Freedom of Speech eminently qualifies. Do you?



screature said:


> As I said before, and you agreed to, freedom of speech carries responsibility and it would have been IMO irresponsible of the powers at be at Parliament to provide a platform form bigoted anti-Islam people to spout and promote their bigotry.


I agreed in the sense that existing rules & laws should be observed. Outside of that, it's open season. The Draw Mohamed event is not anti-Islam. It's pro-Free Speech. Once again, a subtle but distinct difference.



screature said:


> You seem to think that freedom of speech exists in a ideological vacuum that is completely separate and a supreme right regardless of history and/or current events. It is not IMO.


It should. Unfortunately, it doesn't.



screature said:


> Also it was not meant to be a protest, it was meant to be directly disrespectful by provocation. You can protest against Islamist extremists without directly offending all of Islam by doing something that is verboten in their religion.


Once again, this isn't about a particular branch (extremists) of a particular religion (Islam). It's about Free Speech in our own damn country. If I want to draw a picture of the Pope engaged in homosexual sex, I can. Same as drawing a picture of Mohamed. Offensive to some? Probably. Someone is always going to be offended by something. That's the price of Free Speech & something that every single person in this country should feel safe doing.



screature said:


> You are a smart man FeXL so don't play dumb just for the sake of being "right" in an online debate.


This isn't a matter of being right or wrong. It's a matter of belief that, no matter how correct, offensive or stupid one's opinion is, they should have the right to profess it. 

If someone wants to come along & shred or defend what has been posited, by all means, feel free. That's the other side of the Free Speech coin. It works two ways. _Within_ the law...


----------



## FeXL

On the Alberta NDP front.

Interesting.

Rachel Notley announces $103M for education; CYOC to stay open



> Alberta Premier Rachel Notley says her government will allocate an additional $103 million to the province’s education budget, instead of the cutbacks proposed by the Progressive Conservatives.
> 
> The NDP says it will restore funding to previously announced cuts to school and classroom resources, such as transportation, inclusive education, and First Nations, Metis and Inuit.
> 
> Notley said education funding will also be maintained to cover the “two per cent salary increase and one per cent lump sum payment under the previously negotiated Teacher Agreement.”


Politically correct call or genuine concern? We'll see..

Also, this vague, unexplained observation:



> On Wednesday...Notley said she was surprised by the state of Alberta’s finances since taking over from Jim Prentice and the PCs.


Looking for further news on that.


----------



## FeXL

Look at the bloodsuckers migrate.

Manitoba NDP Turmoil Sees Some Key Staff Members Head for Alberta



> The rise of Alberta’s New Democrats is prompting a growing number of Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger’s key staff members to head west.
> 
> It’s a study in contrasts — the ascendant Alberta NDP making history, compared to a Manitoba NDP government that has suffered from infighting and low polling numbers after 15 years in power.
> 
> Selinger started losing top advisers last December, after five senior cabinet ministers challenged his leadership in a contest he ended up winning by the narrowest of margins.
> 
> His chief of staff, his caucus director, his communications chief and more parted ways with the premier in the ensuing months.


They'll be leaving again in 4 years...


----------



## Macfury

Well, now we know the self-interest that motivated fjn's vote.



FeXL said:


> On the Alberta NDP front.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Rachel Notley announces $103M for education; CYOC to stay open
> 
> 
> 
> Politically correct call or genuine concern? We'll see..
> 
> Also, this vague, unexplained observation:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for further news on that.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> And yet, from the Ceremonial and Canadian Symbols Promotion page of the Canadian Heritage website:
> 
> I believe Freedom of Speech eminently qualifies. Do you?
> 
> I agreed in the sense that existing rules & laws should be observed. Outside of that, it's open season. The Draw Mohamed event is not anti-Islam. It's pro-Free Speech. Once again, a subtle but distinct difference.
> 
> It should. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
> 
> Once again, this isn't about a particular branch (extremists) of a particular religion (Islam). It's about Free Speech in our own damn country. If I want to draw a picture of the Pope engaged in homosexual sex, I can. Same as drawing a picture of Mohamed. Offensive to some? Probably. Someone is always going to be offended by something. That's the price of Free Speech & something that every single person in this country should feel safe doing.
> 
> This isn't a matter of being right or wrong. It's a matter of belief that, no matter how correct, offensive or stupid one's opinion is, they should have the right to profess it.
> 
> If someone wants to come along & shred or defend what has been posited, by all means, feel free. That's the other side of the Free Speech coin. It works two ways. _Within_ the law...


There are laws against hate speech in this country with Bill C-51 seeking to extend them and their reach. It is a double edged sword and should not only be applied to those who disagree with the majority but also to those who promote hatred against minorities in this country. Any way you try and frame it drawing cartoons of Mohamed is hate speech to Muslims. We have seen the outcomes of it in France and most recently the US. To turn an ideologically blind eye to the fact that for every action there is an opposite reaction, when we know the possible outcomes, just goes to show that freedom speech carries responsibility and if we act irresponsibly then we have no one to blame but ourselves when those outcomes come to pass. Once again IMO the powers that be at Parliament made the right call. 

I don't think we need to have an anti-Muslim event staged and tacitly supported by Parliament to prove that we have freedom of speech in this country. As I said before you can say whatever you want, just not wherever you want and that extends everywhere from one's own home to the Parliament of Canada.

Clearly we are never going to agree FeXL and so at this point it is probably best to agree that we have come to an ideological impasse and should just agree to disagree.


----------



## Macfury

I couldn't disagree with you more. You're trying to formulate policy based on the soft bigotry of low expectations. Essentially you are saying that some Muslims can't control themselves, so we'd best watch out how exercise our rights in front of them. That's prejudice of a high order.



screature said:


> There are laws against hate speech in this country with Bill C-51 seeking to extend them and their reach. It is a double edged sword and should not only be applied to those who disagree with the majority but also those who promote hatred against minorities in this country. Any way you try and frame it drawing cartoons of Mohamed is hate speech to Muslims. We have seen the outcomes of it in France and most recently the US. To turn an ideologically blind eye to the fact that for every action there is an opposite reaction, when we know the possible outcomes, just goes to show that freedom speech carries responsibility and if we act irresponsibly then we have no one to blame but ourselves when those outcomes come to pass. Once again IMO the powers that be at Parliament made the right call.
> 
> Clearly we are never going to agree FeXL and so at this point it is probably best to agree that we have come to an ideological impasse and should just agree to disagree.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *I couldn't disagree with you more.* You're trying to formulate policy based on the soft bigotry of low expectations. *Essentially you are saying that some Muslims can't control themselves, so we'd best watch out how exercise our rights in front of them. That's prejudice of a high order.*


Oh come on now I know you could if you tried. 

Not at all. If you think that then you should look into the history of black vs. white a little bit more just as one tiny example.

You and FeXL seem to think that this is a freedom of speech issue. It is not. It is a matter that any venue has the right to allow or deny any individual or group from speaking at their location. Cut and dry, as I said it extends from one's own home to the Parliament of Canada.

Considering recent events here at home and around the world IMO Parliament made the correct decision.

Also just to add there are other laws that limit freedom speech, slander and defamation just being a couple of examples.


----------



## Macfury

I agreed with you regarding the locale--not every event may be hosted on Parliament Hill. But your later comments suggested that such an event ought not to be allowed anywhere because it is "hate speech to Muslims." Muslims may not have appreciated the Charlie Hebdo cartoons--just as I don't like some of them--but the overwhelming majority simply took it in stride, vowed not to buy a copy of the magazine and went on with their peaceful lives.



screature said:


> Oh come on now I know you could if you tried.
> 
> Not at all. If you think that then you should look into the history of black vs. white a little bit more just as one tiny example.
> 
> You and FeXL seem to think that this is a freedom of speech issue. It is not. It is a matter that any venue has the right to allow or deny any individual or group from speaking at their location. Cut and dry, as I said it extends from one's own home to the Parliament of Canada.
> 
> Considering recent event IMO Parliament made the correct decision.
> 
> Also just to add there are other laws that limit freedom speech, slander and defamation just being a couple of examples.


----------



## SINC

I think this debate is really between freedom of speech and taunting. IMHO taunting will lose every time without much damage to freedom of speech. My .05 cents worth.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I agreed with you regarding the locale--not every event may be hosted on Parliament Hill. *But your later comments suggested that such an event ought not to be allowed anywhere* because it is "hate speech to Muslims." Muslims may not have appreciated the Charlie Hebdo cartoons--just as I don't like some of them--but the overwhelming majority simply took it in stride, vowed not to buy a copy of the magazine and went on with their peaceful lives.



I think if you check the record you will see that nowhere did I say that or even suggested it. My comments on this matter were always specif to the location being Parliament Hill.

My asides where I mention such things as "everywhere including one's own home" I am talking about venue. If you advise me in advance that you plan to call me (or anyone else) a fat bastard, at a dinner party that I am holding I have the right to deny you entry into my home and the invitation is then revoked.


----------



## Macfury

You said:



> Any way you try and frame it drawing cartoons of Mohamed is hate speech to Muslims.





> There are laws against hate speech in this country with Bill C-51 seeking to extend them and their reach. It is a double edged sword and should not only be applied to those who disagree with the majority but also to those who promote hatred against minorities in this country.


I don't see how those comments limit it to Parliament Hill, but if that's what you meant...



screature said:


> I think if you check the record you will see that nowhere did I say that or even suggested it. My comments on this matter were always specif to the location being Parliament Hill.
> 
> My asides where I mention such things as "everywhere including one's own home" I am talking about venue. If you advise me in advance that you plan to call me a fat bastard at a dinner party that I am holding I have the right to deny you entry into my home and the invitation is revoked.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Any way you try and frame it drawing cartoons of Mohamed is hate speech to Muslims.


Nope. 

I can draw cartoons of Mohamed all day & hang them up all over this vast country of ours, not limited to but including Parliament Hill, & not get indicted for hate speech. 

My actions may be interpreted as free speech, provocative, in poor taste, a joke, ignorant, any of possibly dozens of terms. However, anything which does not get me charged with a crime is not hate speech. These are the laws of my country.

Period.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I think this debate is really between freedom of speech and taunting. IMHO taunting will lose every time without much damage to freedom of speech. My .05 cents worth.


The larger question is whether people who are accused of taunting are free to do so.


----------



## screature

> Any way you try and frame it drawing cartoons of Mohamed is hate speech to Muslims.





> There are laws against hate speech in this country with Bill C-51 seeking to extend them and their reach. It is a double edged sword and should not only be applied to those who disagree with the majority but also to those who promote hatred against minorities in this country.


Yes and I stand by those statements.

So Parliament should not be promoting/providing a venue for hate speech.

Look, the reality is that hate speech occurs all the time but the only time it becomes an issue is when it is made public and is provided a venue where someone might make a complaint or files a law suit. I think Parliament is one one of those places. And with recent events we know it could lead to violence and further radicalization.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Nope.
> 
> *I can draw cartoons of Mohamed all day & hang them up all over this vast country of ours, not limited to but including Parliament Hill, & not get indicted for hate speech. *
> 
> My actions may be interpreted as free speech, provocative, in poor taste, a joke, ignorant, any of possibly dozens of terms. However, anything which does not get me charged with a crime is not hate speech. These are the laws of my country.
> 
> Period.


Try it and see what happens to you... you may or not be indicted, that is for prosecutors to decide, but you may just end up being dead. And for what? A belligerent need to lawfully offend Muslims?


----------



## Macfury

It isn't hate speech by any definition so you're wrong on that, but right about Parliament Hill not being the place for it.



screature said:


> Yes and I stand by those statements.
> 
> So Parliament should not be promoting/providing a venue for hate speech.
> 
> Look, the reality is that hate speech occurs all the time but the only time it becomes an issue is when it is made public and is provided a venue where someone might make a complaint or files a law suit. I think Parliament is one one of those places. And with recent events we know it could lead to violence and further radicalization.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *It isn't hate speech by any definition* so you're wrong on that, but right about Parliament Hill not being the place for it.


It is for Muslims.

Imagine for a moment that it was written in *scripture* that it is a sin or verboten to depict the image of Christ, let alone in a derogatory manner. As a Christian how would would you feel abut this issue then?


----------



## Macfury

I have felt repelled and disappointed by images ridiculing Christ. It was not hate speech.

It is written in the scriptures that one must not use the name of God in vain. I have seen comedians do it simply to prove that they will not be struck dead for doing it. It was not hate speech.



screature said:


> It is for Muslims.
> 
> Imagine for a moment that it was written in *scripture* that it is a sin or verboten to depict the image of Christ, let alone in a derogatory manner. As a Christian how would would you feel abut this issue then?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I have felt repelled and disappointed by images ridiculing Christ. *It was not hate speech.*
> 
> *It is written in the scriptures that one must not use the name of God in vain.* I have seen comedians do it simply to prove that they will not be struck dead for doing it. It was not hate speech.


IMO It is hate speech:



> Hate speech is, outside the law, speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.[1][2]
> 
> In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.


Hate speech

I know that. It is done all the time and probably by you as well from time to time... maybe when you hit your thumb with a hammer.

It is a reality that Christianity has become a very "forgiving" faith over time. That may be part of the reason why you feel the way you do. Muslims do not abide by those tenets. They have their own. 

It certainly wasn't the case during the time of the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition in Christian history where untold numbers were slaughtered in the name of "God". Even in the "New World" both in North and South America untold numbers were slaughtered because they were were considered "heathens" (just replace the word infidels for the modern context).

Christians certainly have their own checkered past and so Christians certainly have no moral high ground to stand on when it comes to conducting human atrocities in the name of their religion and or "god".


----------



## Macfury

There is nothing in the law that says that others need to abide by the rules of my own religion.

I simply don't see the wiki definition as applying to these things.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> ...but you may just end up being dead.


So who is the hateful one, then?

Jeezuz, Screature, do you read what you type? Again, who is to blame: The hooker who dressed provocatively or the creep who "simply couldn't control himself" & raped her? 

What's the thrust here? 

I see people from group "A" approaching me on the sidewalk, I'd better not look at them because they don't like guys like me. I cross the street & further down I see people from group "B" leaving a store in front of me & I know from news reports that they don't like the slogan on my t-shirt so I cross back in order not to offend. Jump on my motorbike & head home, oops, just down the highway is somebody from group "C" with a bumper sticker that reads "I Hate Bikers", better find an off ramp, wouldn't want to offend them. Stop by the grocery store en route, grab me some cobs of corn to BBQ with the brats I have settin' in the fridge, go to stand in line for the "9 items or less" cashier but my neighbour, who happens to be from group "D", doesn't like corn so in order not to offend him I go stand in line behind the little old lady with 75 items who is paying with coupons & loose change. And, before I get home, I cross paths with groups "E", "F" & "G" & who knows what I did to offend them but they're all pissed off at me for something.

I've done nothing illegal in any of the situations just described yet, according to you, I'm s'pose to bounce like a pinball all over the southern end of the province for fear of offending somebody, somewhere.

Is that it?

This is a free country & I'm going to look at whomever I want, walk anywhere I want, wear whatever I want, drive whatever & anywhere I want, eat whatever & whenever I want, say whatever I want and draw whatever the hell my twisted mind conjures up (all within the confines of the law) every damn day of my life. If someone doesn't like it, first off they can go screw themselves, second, they can change the law or third, they can live somewhere else where the law suits them better. 

Most of us have relatives who fought in wars & some who died in wars just so we could enjoy that very freedom. I'll be damned if I'm going to shame their memory by burying my head in the dirt every time some special interest group is offended by the very freedoms that enabled them or their ancestors to come to this country in the first place. If Canadians' freedoms, including our Freedom of Speech, are so oppressive, they can go back from whence they came.

And, if one of the offended little darlings happens to take a special interest in me or mine, they'd better make sure their affairs are in order 'cause $h!t flies two ways...

I'm done here.


----------



## SINC

Not exactly Canadian politics, but central in subject matter to the current discussion:

Washington DC officials block Muhammad subway cartoon - BBC News


----------



## FeXL

If this was a few states closer I'd be there today.

Armed Bikers to Hold Mohammed Contest Outside Cartoon Gunmen’s Mosque



> _ROUND 2!!!!!!! This will be a PEACEFUL protest in front of the Islamic Community Center in Phoenix AZ. This is in response to the recent attack in Texas where 2 armed terrorist, with ties to ISIS, attempted Jihad. Everyone is encouraged to bring American Flags and any message that you would like to send to the known acquaintances of the 2 gunmen.​_


----------



## Macfury

But Washington DC transit was quick to approve these ads:

Fred Edwords: The atheist bus campaign comes to America's capital | Comment is free | The Guardian



SINC said:


> Not exactly Canadian politics, but central in subject matter to the current discussion:
> 
> Washington DC officials block Muhammad subway cartoon - BBC News


----------



## CubaMark

This should be in the American Politics thread, or another thread on, say, "Utter Stupidity".

Here's an interview with the organizer of that event you want to attend, FeXL:










*COOPER:* Aren't you playing into Al Qaeda and ISIS by telling them you can't be a Muslim in the United States? Isn't this the message that the terrorists want?

*RITZHEIMER:* Sure.

*COOPER*: OK, so you're playing into Al Qaeda and ISIS' hands. Do you feel good about that?

*RITZHEIMER:* I'm just doing what I have to do to make sure my children have a good future.

*COOPER:* Isis and Al Qaeda is pushing this narrative that there's a war between Islam and the West. You fully believe there's a war between Islam and the West, I guess, yes?

*RITZHEIMER:* Yes.

*COOPER*: So you think that it's wise for the West to have war against the billion-plus Muslims around the world?

*RITZHEIMER:* No, I don't want war, but they need to learn tolerance. We're not the ones out committing these acts. We're not the ones threatening anybody."

*COOPER:* "You don't think bringing guns to a mosque while families are praying inside while you're wearing t-shirts that say f--- Islam and shouting whatever it is you're going to shout at them as they come and as they go -- you don't think that's promoting violence at all?"

*RITZHEIMER:* "I think the whole thing is -- the cartoon contest especially, I think it's stupid and ridiculous but it's what needs to take place in order to expose the true colors of Islam." (CNN via C&L)​


----------



## FeXL

Yeah. And?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Yeah. And?


He's viewing it through a "progressive" lens. Would be interesting to put on that apparatus to see what he sees.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> He's viewing it through a "progressive" lens. Would be interesting to put on that apparatus to see what he sees.


Well, I'm sure CM has a point to make somewhere. As it didn't come across in his post and, for the life of me, I can't find my progressive lenses, I'm waiting for him to elucidate.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Well, I'm sure CM has a point to make somewhere. As it didn't come across in his post and, for the life of me, I can't find my progressive lenses, I'm waiting for him to elucidate.


He may simply be offended by Anderson Cooper's lack of professionalism as an interviewer.


----------



## CubaMark

Oh, please. Even you guys aren't that dense.

The organizer of this so-called 'free speech' event is unable to provide two consecutive sentences explaining why he's doing this without contradicting himself. It's not "free speech", it's provocation, to "...expose the true colors of Islam...." whatever the hell that means. I've asked my muslim friends what the "true colours" of their faith might be, but as soon as the words leave my mouth, the ridiculousness of the statement shames me into silence.

Fundamentally, this is simply people who wear their prejudices on their sleeves, swathed in the blanket of 'freedom' and 'free speech', attempting to offend as many people who are different from themselves as possible, to some sadistic, self-pleasuring end.

Bullies. Trolls. Warriors for "free speech". All the same kind of damaged (and damaging) human being.


----------



## Macfury

I would be ashamed if I were you as well. What's wrong with you?



CubaMark said:


> I've asked my muslim friends what the "true colours" of their faith might be, but as soon as the words leave my mouth, the ridiculousness of the statement shames me into silence.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Oh, please. Even you guys aren't that dense.
> 
> The organizer of this so-called 'free speech' event is unable to provide two consecutive sentences explaining why he's doing this without contradicting himself. It's not "free speech", it's provocation, to "...expose the true colors of Islam...." whatever the hell that means. I've asked my muslim friends what the "true colours" of their faith might be, but as soon as the words leave my mouth, the ridiculousness of the statement shames me into silence.
> 
> Fundamentally, this is simply people who wear their prejudices on their sleeves, swathed in the blanket of 'freedom' and 'free speech', attempting to offend as many people who are different from themselves as possible, to some sadistic, self-pleasuring end.
> 
> Bullies. Trolls. Warriors for "free speech". All the same kind of damaged (and damaging) human being.


The key to his argument, and I agree to this part in spades is, and I quote: *"No, I don't want war, but THEY need to learn tolerance."*

M'bold, my caps.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The key to his argument, and I agree to this part in spades is, and I quote: *"No, I don't want war, but THEY need to learn tolerance."*
> 
> M'bold, my caps.


Exactly--it's delineating the territory to which free speech extends and then defending that turf. No amount of hurt feelings or "progressive" hand-wringing can interfere.


----------



## FeXL

Again, what's the thrust here? He's not a good interviewee & isn't comfortable in front of a camera so he's an idiot? Is that it?

I had professors in university who were extremely uncomfortable in social situations of any type & had difficulties stringing together a sentence in a field outside their expertise.

You don't need to be a perfect elocutionist nor the brightest light on the Christmas tree to understand you are being steam-rolled by certain members of the so-called "religion of peace".

All you require is situational awareness. In martial arts it's called "unagi". Few people have it. Apparently, even fewer on the left...



CubaMark said:


> Oh, please. Even you guys aren't that dense.


----------



## FeXL

Huh. Go figger. A bunch of armed, crazy, hateful, blood-thirsty, cartoon waving bikers held a demonstration at a mosque & nobody got killed.

Crowds gather for anti-Islam demonstration outside Phoenix mosque



> By late Friday night, virtually all the protesters and police had left the area with no reports of violent flare-ups or arrests.


Imagine that...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Huh. Go figger. A bunch of armed, crazy, hateful, blood-thirsty, cartoon waving bikers held a demonstration at a mosque & nobody got killed.
> 
> Crowds gather for anti-Islam demonstration outside Phoenix mosque
> 
> Imagine that...


I think that event probably eased tensions ultimately. Images were shown. Muslims remained peaceful. Protesters saw that Muslims remained peaceful. Muslims saw that protesters remained peaceful. The were all desensitized.

It seems only the "progressive" interlopers who showed up caused flare-ups.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Huh. Go figger. A bunch of armed, crazy, hateful, blood-thirsty, cartoon waving bikers held a demonstration at a mosque & nobody got killed.
> .....
> Imagine that...


Have to admit, I'm surprised as hell. Of course, there was a pretty large police presence dividing the groups and the mosque. Seems they pretty much forgot about the "Draw Mohammed" contest and just spent the day hurling insults (the anti-Islam crowd) at the "Love & Peace" crowd.

Someone brought up this scenario... and I doubt it would have ended as peacefully:

*Imagine If Muslims Surrounded A Christian Church In The US With Assault Rifles During Prayer Time*

_The question I would like to pose to the organizer is this: If Muslims showed up to surround a Christian church during prayer time, armed to the teeth, wearing “**** Jesus” t-shirts, while yelling out demeaning remarks, what would you think of them?

You’d think Christians were being persecuted, huh?

You are the “tyranny” in America. They are the ISIS version of American religion.

What a fine example of patriotism._

(FreakoutNation)​


----------



## Macfury

Or what if you said to Muslims (and Christians):



> As for me, I say f*** all organized religion. There’s too much hatred there.:


That's the next line in the quote you excerpted.



CubaMark said:


> Have to admit, I'm surprised as hell. Of course, there was a pretty large police presence dividing the groups and the mosque. Seems they pretty much forgot about the "Draw Mohammed" contest and just spent the day hurling insults (the anti-Islam crowd) at the "Love & Peace" crowd.
> 
> Someone brought up this scenario... and I doubt it would have ended as peacefully:
> 
> *Imagine If Muslims Surrounded A Christian Church In The US With Assault Rifles During Prayer Time*
> 
> _The question I would like to pose to the organizer is this: If Muslims showed up to surround a Christian church during prayer time, armed to the teeth, wearing “**** Jesus” t-shirts, while yelling out demeaning remarks, what would you think of them?
> 
> You’d think Christians were being persecuted, huh?
> 
> You are the “tyranny” in America. They are the ISIS version of American religion.
> 
> What a fine example of patriotism._
> 
> (FreakoutNation)​


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Or what if you said to Muslims (and Christians):
> 
> That's the next line in the quote you excerpted.


Which is relevant how? The hypothetical scenario is: armed muslims surrounding a Christian Church in America. Likely outcome?

Terribly sorry to have not cited the profanity. I'll do so next time, just for you.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Which is relevant how? The hypothetical scenario is: armed muslims surrounding a Christian Church in America. Likely outcome?


The people inside would call the police. Just as occurred here.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Have to admit, I'm surprised as hell. Of course, there was a pretty large police presence dividing the groups and the mosque. Seems they pretty much forgot about the "Draw Mohammed" contest and just spent the day hurling insults (the anti-Islam crowd) at the "Love & Peace" crowd.
> 
> Someone brought up this scenario... and I doubt it would have ended as peacefully:
> 
> *Imagine If Muslims Surrounded A Christian Church In The US With Assault Rifles During Prayer Time*
> 
> _The question I would like to pose to the organizer is this: If Muslims showed up to surround a Christian church during prayer time, armed to the teeth, wearing “**** Jesus” t-shirts, while yelling out demeaning remarks, what would you think of them?
> 
> You’d think Christians were being persecuted, huh?
> 
> You are the “tyranny” in America. They are the ISIS version of American religion.
> 
> What a fine example of patriotism._
> 
> (FreakoutNation)​


Christian churches aren't funding and promoting terrorism at home and abroad. Christian churches don't kill people for drawing pictures of Jesus. Christian texts don't instruct believers to kill non-believers.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Christian texts don't instruct believers to kill non-believers.


Umm.... well.... they kinda do, dude....

*Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God*

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)​ 
*Kill Followers of Other Religions.*

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)​
No doubt there are other examples.... of course, depending upon which version of the Christian texts you happen to be reading...


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Umm.... well.... they kinda do, dude....
> 
> 
> 
> *Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God*
> 
> 
> 
> Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)​
> 
> 
> *Kill Followers of Other Religions.*
> 
> 
> 
> 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)​
> 
> 
> No doubt there are other examples.... of course, depending upon which version of the Christian texts you happen to be reading...



Hoisted by his own petards!


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----------



## Macfury

Don't be a lame-ass. Is your knowledge of religion this barren that you don't understand the difference between Old Testament Judaism and Christianity? You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking your comment was clever.

*Galatians 3:23–25*



> Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.





CubaMark said:


> Umm.... well.... they kinda do, dude....


You're included, fjn. Most of your posts about Christianity are shockingly lacking in any academic underpinning.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Seems they pretty much forgot about the "Draw Mohammed" contest and just spent the day hurling insults (the anti-Islam crowd) at the "Love & Peace" crowd.


Did you read the same article I read?



> As the event got under way, *demonstrators on both sides screamed obscenities at each other*...
> 
> ...
> 
> *Others waved copies of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad drawn at the Texas event.*


M'bold.

Just in case you didn't bother reading the linked article...


----------



## FeXL

I believe you will find the correct turn of phrase is "Hoist with his own petard".

I could provide links to the original Shakespeare but that is left as an exercise for the reader.



fjnmusic said:


> Hoisted by his own petards!


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Don't be a lame-ass. Is your knowledge of religion this barren that you don't understand the difference between Old Testament Judaism and Christianity? You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking your comment was clever.


Admittedly, I am not a biblical scholar. From what I recall of the childhood years my parents dragged me to church, the Old Testament was cited just as frequently as the New. Apparently I'm not the only one with this perspective:

_...when people say, “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.” The fact that the Bible is God’s progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament. However, when one reads both the Old and the New Testaments, it becomes evident that God is not different from one testament to another and that God’s wrath and His love are revealed in both testaments._ (GotQuestions)​
*Not that the New Testament is full of a touchy-feely happy God...
*
*Hebrews 10:26-31* If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

*Hebrews 12:28.29 *Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire.”

*Revelation 19:15-16* Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

*Mark 9:42-49* "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire.")

*Mark 16:16* "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Now, any one of those passages could be used by an extremist to justify murder and violence, just as an extremist uses passages from the Koran to the same end.

Add on top of that more than a century of meddling in the affairs of muslim states by western political and corporate interests, you can see how someone predisposed to extreme acts might find any justification to carry them out. The fact that the Christians in the West, for the most part, do not typically undertake extremist individual actions may be due to the fact that (a) they've already got the oil that's under their own feet and (b) they have a huge state political-military system that will carry out such acts on large scale, as a nation. Certainly the families who have been bombed by Western militaries in the middle east may feel they have just reasons for striking out at the West.


----------



## Macfury

I'll remember that lame excuse next time you call me out on an issue. 



CubaMark said:


> Admittedly, I am not a biblical scholar. From what I recall of the childhood years my parents dragged me to church, the Old Testament was cited just as frequently as the New. *Apparently I'm not the only one with this perspective.*


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I'll remember that lame excuse next time you call me out on an issue.


By "lame excuse" you mean "proving me wrong", in the lexicon of MacFury?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Don't be a lame-ass. Is your knowledge of religion this barren that you don't understand the difference between Old Testament Judaism and Christianity? You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking your comment was clever.
> 
> 
> 
> *Galatians 3:23&#150;25*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're included, fjn. Most of your posts about Christianity are shockingly lacking in any academic underpinning.



Judge not, lest ye be judged.


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## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Admittedly, I am not a biblical scholar. From what I recall of the childhood years my parents dragged me to church, the Old Testament was cited just as frequently as the New. Apparently I'm not the only one with this perspective:
> 
> 
> 
> _...when people say, &#147;The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.&#148; The fact that the Bible is God&#146;s progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament. However, when one reads both the Old and the New Testaments, it becomes evident that God is not different from one testament to another and that God&#146;s wrath and His love are revealed in both testaments._ (GotQuestions)​
> 
> 
> *Not that the New Testament is full of a touchy-feely happy God...
> 
> *
> 
> *Hebrews 10:26-31* If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, &#147;It is mine to avenge; I will repay,&#148; and again, &#147;The Lord will judge his people.&#148; It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
> 
> 
> 
> *Hebrews 12:28.29 *Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our &#147;God is a consuming fire.&#148;
> 
> 
> 
> *Revelation 19:15-16* Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. &#147;He will rule them with an iron scepter.&#148; He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
> 
> 
> 
> *Mark 9:42-49* "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire.")
> 
> 
> 
> *Mark 16:16* "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
> 
> 
> 
> Now, any one of those passages could be used by an extremist to justify murder and violence, just as an extremist uses passages from the Koran to the same end.
> 
> 
> 
> Add on top of that more than a century of meddling in the affairs of muslim states by western political and corporate interests, you can see how someone predisposed to extreme acts might find any justification to carry them out. The fact that the Christians in the West, for the most part, do not typically undertake extremist individual actions may be due to the fact that (a) they've already got the oil that's under their own feet and (b) they have a huge state political-military system that will carry out such acts on large scale, as a nation. Certainly the families who have been bombed by Western militaries in the middle east may feel they have just reasons for striking out at the West.



Atta boy, Mark. Two can play the quote cherry picking game. 😉👍


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## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> I believe you will find the correct turn of phrase is "Hoist with his own petard".
> 
> 
> 
> I could provide links to the original Shakespeare but that is left as an exercise for the reader.



Yes I know. I adapted it to fit the sentence, which is why you see no quotation marks.


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## FeXL

Here it comes...

Expect new climate change plan soon, says Alberta environment minister



> Alberta will have a new provincial climate change strategy by the end of the month, says new Environment Minister Shannon Phillips.
> 
> Phillips told reporters she will deliver the much-delayed program to tackle greenhouse gas emissions before the current legislation expires June 30.


Of all the stupid $h!t that the NDP could implement, I find anything related to "climate change" the most offensive...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Here it comes...
> 
> 
> 
> Expect new climate change plan soon, says Alberta environment minister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of all the stupid $h!t that the NDP could implement, I find anything related to "climate change" the most offensive...



So you are a climate change denier, FeXL?


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> So you are a climate change denier, FeXL?


What a ridiculous question. It would be like asking you if you're a global warming idiot.

The climate always changes. _Nobody_ denies that.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> What a ridiculous question. It would be like asking you if you're a global warming idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> The climate always changes. _Nobody_ denies that.



I know a few idiots of both varieties.


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## BigDL

Macfury said:


> What a ridiculous question. It would be like asking you if you're a global warming idiot...


Wouldn't deleting the word "idiot" and replacing that word with "believer" be more analogous to climate change denier?

Idiot is pejorative after all. Unless you equate people who deny the existence of anthropogenic global climate change as the idiots?


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of idiocy, BigDL, perhaps you could elaborate on just what percentage of the statistically insignificant warming over the past 18 years & 5 months is due to man?

Jes' askin'...



BigDL said:


> Unless you equate people who deny the existence of anthropogenic global climate change as the idiots?


----------



## FeXL

<sniff>



fjnmusic said:


> So you are a climate change denier, FeXL?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Wouldn't deleting the word "idiot" and replacing that word with "believer" be more analogous to climate change denier? Idiot is pejorative after all.


Not at all. Denier is intended as a pejorative in the sense that fjn uses it--though he may not be aware of it. It would be like a deist saying that someone who is a professed atheist is a "God denier"--as though the person has made a deliberate choice to wrongly reject a God he knows exists.



BigDL said:


> Unless you equate people who deny the existence of anthropogenic global climate change as the idiots?


I would say that, once you study the science, it would be pretty foolhardy to claim that humans have _no_ impact on the climate. Even plankton does that. But I would say that anyone who says that "anthropogenic global climate change" is a serious problem facing humankind is either misinformed, mistaken, a liar... or an idiot.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I would say that, once you study the science, it would be pretty foolhardy to claim that humans have _no_ impact on the climate. Even plankton does that. But I would say that anyone who says that "anthropogenic global climate change" is a serious problem facing humankind is either misinformed, mistaken, a liar... or an idiot.


The real danger is when the believers also believe that spending a few $Trillions$ will somehow magically solve the problem. Then when NASA cooks some data and says it's not working they then believe spending $100Trillions more will surely be the answer.

I wonder if the Russians prove to be correct and we see the planet sliding into an ice age, will the true believers demand we quadruple our CO2 production to remedy the situation? Great excuse to buy a 66 GTO with the 6.9 litre tri-power.


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## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I wonder if the Russians prove to be correct and we see the planet sliding into an ice age, will the true believers demand we quadruple our CO2 production to remedy the situation? Great excuse to buy a 66 GTO with the 6.9 litre tri-power.


I have frequently asked warmists what the "real" temperature of the Earth should be. They just babbled.


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## FeXL

I have no love for Tim Horton's in the first place and do not support them in the second. I hope this comes back to bite them on the backside Big Time.

Roll Up The Rim To Hypocrisy



> Tim Hortons has no problem doing business in OPEC dictatorships. They have stores in Kuwait. In the United Arab Emirates. In Qatar. In Oman. Those are all dictatorships. Tim Hortons happily takes their money.
> 
> But they think Canadian oil and gas workers are too unethical.
> 
> Fine. If Tim Hortons doesn't want Canadian oil money, let's not give it to them. Boycott Tims.


----------



## FeXL

Here we go again...

‘With Gilles Duceppe as leader, we are headed towards a new victory for the Bloc’



> Gilles Duceppe is back at the helm of Bloc Quebecois and says voters in the province need to side with a federal party that will put their interests first.
> 
> Duceppe told a news conference on Wednesday that Quebec’s voice in Ottawa has weakened under the NDP and only a strong Bloc presence can change that.
> 
> “We are better represented when we’re represented by people thinking like us,” Duceppe said at Bloc headquarters in Montreal. “Democratically elected and speaking the way we want them to speak, defending the interests which are our interests.”


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> Here we go again...
> 
> ‘With Gilles Duceppe as leader, we are headed towards a new victory for the Bloc’


Tom Mulcair is weeping right now.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Tom Mulcair is weeping right now.


Layton's pandering to the separatists remains a shameful moment in the NDP's checkered history. Gloomy Mulcair can't hope to boldly out-campaign Duceppe on separatist issues.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Christian churches aren't funding and promoting terrorism at home and abroad. Christian churches don't kill people for drawing pictures of Jesus. *Christian texts don't instruct believers to kill non-believers.*


They have in the past on so many numerous occasions I can't list them all here.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> They have in the past on so many numerous occasions I can't list them all here.



True dat. One time they had this thing called the Crusades, where the objective was to convert Muslims into Christians, forceably if necessary.


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## screature

Macfury said:


> Not at all. Denier is intended as a pejorative in the sense that fjn uses it--though he may not be aware of it. It would be like a deist saying that someone who is a professed atheist is a "God denier"--as though the person has made a deliberate choice to wrongly reject a God he knows exists.
> 
> I would say that, once you study the science, it would be pretty foolhardy to claim that humans have _no_ impact on the climate. Even plankton does that. *But I would say that anyone who says that "anthropogenic global climate change" is a serious problem facing humankind is either misinformed, mistaken, a liar... or an idiot.*


Well I don't think I fit into any of those broad characterizations. But I do disagree with you. How can over one hundred and fifty years of us spewing pollutants of all kinds not affect the earth let alone climate change. We definitely have an an affect on the climate and the exosphere of the planet in general, to think otherwise is tantamount to burying ones head and trying to pretend that our actions have nothing to do with climate change. 

We exist in an interconnected system here on mother earth and so our actions are intertwined with our non-human counterparts or even extraterrestrial events.

We may not be the major contributors to climate change at this point in time, but our actions just may be the "tipping point".

We really don't know. But I see no reason to not try to "cleanup our act".


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> They have in the past on so many numerous occasions I can't list them all here.


No. Jesus very specifically instructed Christians NOT to engage in any such behaviours. That's diametrically opposed to Islam, where killing unbelievers is an article of their faith. Mohammad COMMANDED them to do it.

People certainly have done bad things using religion as an excuse, the difference with Islam, is the bad things are a basic tenet of their religion. The radicals are not misusing Islam, they are doing what Mohammad commanded them to do.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well I don't think I fit into any of those broad characterizations. But I do disagree with you. How can over one hundred and fifty years of us spewing pollutants of all kinds not affect the earth let alone climate change.


Do you know the sensitivity of the Earth's climate? How does pollution compare to the largest volcanic eruptions? Everything affects everything. Humans affecting the climate more than the sun, more than airborne moisture, more than ocean currents? Nope.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> No. Jesus very specifically instructed Christians NOT to engage in any such behaviours. That's diametrically opposed to Islam, where killing unbelievers is an article of their faith. Mohammad COMMANDED them to do it.
> 
> People certainly have done bad things using religion as an excuse, the difference with Islam, is the bad things are a basic tenet of their religion. The radicals are not misusing Islam, they are doing what Mohammad commanded them to do.


Jesus never instructed Christians to do anything as Christianity only came into existence after his death. Sure he had those that believed in him but they weren't Christians in the way we mean the term today.

Even if what you say is true, Christians did engage in such activity though the Crusades and the Inquisition, et. al. Defying the word of their Lord. So how does that make Christians or their religion any better? They still did their evil deeds under his name.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Do you know the sensitivity of the Earth's climate? How does pollution compare to the largest volcanic eruptions? Everything affects everything. *Humans affecting the climate more than the sun, more than airborne moisture, more than ocean currents?* Nope.


Nope never came close to suggesting that. Merely said that it undeniable our emissions have an effect, how could they not...? Kind of like the meaning of the expressions "the last straw or the straw that broke the camels back".

It may seemingly be insignificant in terms of its own weight and mass but when added on to an already existing situation can cause greater effects than what would have been expected, i.e. as I said in my post a "tipping point".


----------



## Rps

Okay, so I am, as usual, a little late to the party here. But Screature is correct in his comments on Christian attacks on those who dared infringe on their religious territory. All religions have a press spin, all religions sing the same tune but with different lyrics. Each, also, misquotes the other and places their own hegemony on their followers. And, most important I think, virtually all take their life plan, if you will, and manipulate it for their political ends. For those who don't believe, Faith is a very human attribute, however it has been the "leadership" that has perverted plan. Much like kids sports, it isn't the actual game that causes friction, it is the parents of the children who cause all the problems .... Religions are no different, we needed to just have "the kids" play together without parental interferrence.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It may seemingly be insignificant in terms of its own weight and mass but when added on to an already existing situation can cause greater effects than what would have been expected, i.e. as I said in my post a "tipping point".


I can argue that anything has a "tipping point" and insist everyone follow my lead on dozens of issues because it's better than the imaginary consequences of going past the "tipping point." So in terms of carbon dioxide, where is your tipping point and how do you know it exists?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I can argue that anything has a "tipping point" and insist everyone follow my lead on dozens of issues because it's better than the imaginary consequences of going past the "tipping point." So in terms of carbon dioxide, where is your tipping point and how do you know it exists?


Of course everything has a "tipping" point but the unfortunate thing is that it is really hard to predict, we usually only know it in retrospect. Everything in the future is imaginary and that is the way it always has been and will be, but we still act on those imaginations... just like flying or going to the moon.

Carbon dioxide is only one of many climate changing compounds. Methane is much more "damaging" in terms of "changes" to the atmosphere than CO2 for example on a pound for pound basis.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Of course everything has a "tipping" point but the unfortunate thing is that it is really hard to predict, we usually only know it in retrospect. Everything in the future is imaginary and that is the way it always has been and will be, but we still act on those imaginations... just like flying or going to the moon.
> 
> Carbon dioxide is only one of many climate changing compounds. Methane is much more "damaging" in terms of "changes" to the atmosphere than CO2 for example on a pound for pound basis.


Right, so since we have had atmospheric concentrations of both methane and CO2 well in excess of today's levels, there seems to be little reason to worry about tipping points today.


----------



## Macfury

That would only be true if no religion worshiped an actual god.



Rps said:


> Okay, so I am, as usual, a little late to the party here. But Screature is correct in his comments on Christian attacks on those who dared infringe on their religious territory. All religions have a press spin, all religions sing the same tune but with different lyrics. Each, also, misquotes the other and places their own hegemony on their followers. And, most important I think, virtually all take their life plan, if you will, and manipulate it for their political ends. For those who don't believe, Faith is a very human attribute, however it has been the "leadership" that has perverted plan. Much like kids sports, it isn't the actual game that causes friction, it is the parents of the children who cause all the problems .... Religions are no different, we needed to just have "the kids" play together without parental interferrence.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Right, so since we have had atmospheric concentrations of both methane and CO2 well in excess of today's levels, there seems to be little reason to worry about tipping points today.


I am not a scientist, but that wouldn't be around the time that there where no humans that we know of on the earth? Just asking.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> That would only be true if no religion worshiped an actual god.


Fair enough! It is a hard sell trying to convince people that it is the same deity with a different name, and was probably easier selling multiple deities to the population .... Makes one wonder if the study of demographics first was practiced by religions.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I am not a scientist, but that wouldn't be around the time that there where no humans that we know of on the earth? Just asking.


No, the last time would be in the middle of the 12th century. 

Concentrations of CO2 were massively higher during previous geological era, but there was no correlation with temperature. See attached image. Purple is CO2 concentration, blue is temperature variation in Centigrade.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Right, so since we have had atmospheric concentrations of both methane and CO2 well in excess of today's levels, there seems to be little reason to worry about tipping points today.


Not necessarily as there were a plethora of other differences in the past, it is a matter of the combinations of factors. CO2 and methane concentrations in the past may have been higher than they are today, but the overall conditions of the atmosphere are undoubtedly different now than there were in the past. So when the overall chemical atmospheric conditions change what can create a tipping point or catalyst can also change.

Just for example due to CFCs (humane made) we now have greatly depleted ozone that now fits into the current chemical soup in the atmosphere.


----------



## Rps

Screature, what seems obvious to me missed by many is that once you've "tipped" you don't go back. All this argument about Global this and that, it seems to me it is mostly a case of confirmation bias by many fronts. The common sense bottom line is: doesn't it make sense to just make the planet a little cleaner to live in.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Screature, what seems obvious to me missed by many is that once you've "tipped" you don't go back. All this argument about Global this and that, it seems to me it is mostly a case of confirmation bias by many fronts. The common sense bottom line is: doesn't it make sense to just make the planet a little cleaner to live in.


Absolutely and CO2 is a trace gas that occurs naturally in the atmosphere and has no harmful or toxic side effects. 

Spending even 10% of what Gore and the Banksters hope to collect via cap & trade, and carbon taxation, could help reduce some far more harmful pollutants. One example that comes to mind is the Victoria, BC sewage (non)treatment system. 

Another example would be much better management of the landfill system. Modern technology means that much of what is dumped into landfills could be cleanly incinerated to generate power. Sadly the CO2 boogie man keeps that from even being considered.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, what seems obvious to me missed by many is that *once you've "tipped" you don't go back.* All this argument about Global this and that, it seems to me it is mostly a case of confirmation bias by many fronts. The common sense bottom line is: doesn't it make sense to just make the planet a little cleaner to live in.


Well yes time marches on and history never repeats exactly, it can be similar but it won't be the same.

The atmosphere of the earth has been changing since the earth began and it will always be so due to a multitude of factors, far too many for our minds despite our technology can accurately predict. Cripes we have a hard enough time predicting the weather let alone the climate.

We can only do our best, but based on what we "know" or think we know that seems to be harming the atmosphere we would probably do well to try and alleviate that which seems to be making the situation worse.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Just for example due to CFCs (humane made) we now have greatly depleted ozone that now fits into the current chemical soup in the atmosphere.


The appeared to be some direct, laboratory reproducible chemical evidence regarding CFCs and ozone, so the ban probably made sense.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Screature, what seems obvious to me missed by many is that once you've "tipped" you don't go back.


If I told you that increasing taxes by 5 per cent would send the economy to a tipping point that would lead to worldwide financial collapse, it would not stop anyone from raising taxes. In order to have a tipping point, you also require a tipping mechanism. What might that be?

In climate terms, once you "tip" past CO2 concentrations five times higher than today, you DO go back--over and over, as proved by historic record.



Rps said:


> The common sense bottom line is: doesn't it make sense to just make the planet a little cleaner to live in.


That is not a common sense bottom line. C02 is not a pollutant. Realistically, an increase in CO2 leads to greater plant growth and not much else. 

If it cost a trillion dollars to reduce CO2 by a minuscule amount, what would you get for the money? What better things could have been achieved with that money? Would the planet be cleaner? Would it be cooler? Would that be a good use of a trillion dollars?

Clean the planet of pollutants such as ocean plastics. Don't waste valuable resources on battling an atmospheric trace gas.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The appeared to be some direct, laboratory reproducible chemical evidence regarding CFCs and ozone, so the ban probably made sense.


So then with a depleted ozone layer, allowing more heat reaching the lower levels of the atmosphere, it then may become possible that compounds like CO2 and methane have a greater effect on the atmosphere than they did in the past when ozone was more abundant.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So then with a depleted ozone layer, allowing more heat reaching the lower levels of the atmosphere, it then may become possible that compounds like CO2 and methane have a greater effect on the atmosphere than they did in the past when ozone was more abundant.


Ozone depletion is largely limited to the poles and there is still no certainty that natural variation is NOT the primary cause of the extent of those holes. However, based on those reproducible lab tests, it remains prudent to continue a CFC ban.

Ozone depletion would be responsible for a modest increase in UV radiation--not enough energy to cause warming. Methane, for the most part, chemically destroys CFCs by neutralizing them.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Ozone depletion is largely limited to the poles and there is still no certainty that natural variation is NOT the primary cause of the extent of those holes. However, based on those reproducible lab tests, it remains prudent to continue a CFC ban.
> 
> Ozone depletion would be responsible for a modest increase in UV radiation--not enough energy to cause warming. Methane, for the most part, chemically destroys CFCs by neutralizing them.


We can debate the issue endlessly as has been done in 2 different threads, neither of which I participated in for the pure simple reason "I do not know".

MF you seem to think you know. So what is the solution?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> MF you seem to think you know. So what is the solution?


The solution to which specific problem?


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> We can debate the issue endlessly as has been done in 2 different threads, neither of which I participated in for the pure simple reason "I do not know".
> 
> 
> 
> MF you seem to think you know. So what is the solution?



The only solution you will hear is a criticism of other people's solutions. It is easier to criticize other people's ideas than put forward any original ones of your own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Offering solutions to non-existent problems requires heavy criticism.



fjnmusic said:


> The only solution you will hear is a criticism of other people's solutions. It is easier to criticize other people's ideas than put forward any original ones of your own.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

Actually, I think we agree. Also check out post 14972, eMacman also makes a good point. But the more we examine the greater fault we find, whether C02, or anything. The issue is always what does it cost, or is it worth the expense. Unfortunately it tends to take a global catastrophe to get people's attention. My hope is that if there is a tipping point it is not a permanent line that is crossed ..... And we may never know until we cross it. So, again, I ask what is the harm in making the planet a little cleaner and more livable.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> So, again, I ask what is the harm in making the planet a little cleaner and more livable.


Why would a reduction in CO2 make the planet markedly cleaner or more livable and at what cost? Why talk about tipping point when there is no mechanism to tip? Why talk of global catastrophes when none are either occurring or on the horizon?

The harm is pain, discomfort, hunger and lack of economic opportunity, primarily among the world's poorest. It would be a misallocation of resources on an unheard-of scale.

A good parallel--if we can all be healthier, what's the harm of of scheduling weekly medical checkups for everyone?


----------



## Rps

I think you missed the line that states C02 or anything. Everything thing has a cost .... Which is not the same as saying everything has a price. Not doing something that seems logical to do may have a cost in the future, but that is the price we pay.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I think you missed the line that states C02 or anything. Everything thing has a cost .... Which is not the same as saying everything has a price. Not doing something that seems logical to do may have a cost in the future, but that is the price we pay.


So which "thing" is common sense to do today because we may reach a potential "tipping point."


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> So which "thing" is common sense to do today because we may reach a potential "tipping point."


Just a small list to start:

Don't put radioactive waste in containers which only last 50 years and put them in the ground by the water table.

Don't package stuff in needlessly large packaging which can not be recycled

Don't pollute the water

Don't dump harmful toxins in the air, ground, water.

Don't bring in cap and trade on carbon fuels which I think is really only smoke and mirrors

Process all waste, get rid of recycling as it is market driven, but waste processing can create a market

provide reasonable public transit options then actually charge the charge for road use.

Give buyers of city cars a break on license and fees


----------



## eMacMan

I would add No Carbon tax. When a nation is heavily in debt, every penny of a carbon tax is going to go straight to the banksters. It won't pass go and it won't do anything useful on its way to the vault.


----------



## chimo

Macfury said:


> No, the last time would be in the middle of the 12th century.
> 
> Concentrations of CO2 were massively higher during previous geological era, but there was no correlation with temperature. See attached image. Blue is CO2 concentration, purple is temperature variation in Centigrade.


Just an observation - looks like you have swapped CO2 and delta T from the chart in post 14969. The CO2 line looks pretty flat from about 4 million years ago until a couple of hundred years ago.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Give buyers of city cars a break on license and fees


Why?


----------



## Macfury

chimo said:


> Just an observation - looks like you have swapped CO2 and delta T from the chart in post 14969. The CO2 line looks pretty flat from about 4 million years ago until a couple of hundred years ago.


You're right--colours have been corrected in the original post!

The numbers are relatively flat on that scale for the past million years, but there are large hiccups along the way if you drill down further. The point of posting the chart was to show that there is no demonstrable CO2 "tipping point" from which the earth would never recover.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Why?


I could give you a long list, but here's the Cole's Notes version. Due to the lack of foresight by our major cities with respect to people movement, and also that Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal have become city states ... I am not surprised they haven't tried being provinces among themselves, moving people has become a bankruptable topic. They will do anything to finance public transit and ease congestion. This means virtually all roads into the city may potentially become full pay roads ( toll roads if you will ). Since we do not have a current alternative for the masses, why not ease them into a temporary alternative ..... City cars. I see you are from Alberta. To me Alberta is evenly divided into Calgary, Edmonton and then everywhere else. Calgary and Edmonton may not be far off of Toronto's right to entitlement here in Ontario.


----------



## FeXL

Thx for the reply.

I guess I'm not understanding what you mean by "City Cars". Can you elaborate?

I do understand what you mean by city state entitlements, although we don't see much of that here yet. Probably more in Edmonton than Calgary (the difference being the provincial capitol & the associated mindset).


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Thx for the reply.
> 
> I guess I'm not understanding what you mean by "City Cars". Can you elaborate?
> 
> I do understand what you mean by city state entitlements, although we don't see much of that here yet. Probably more in Edmonton than Calgary (the difference being the provincial capitol & the associated mindset).


Smartcars, Nissan Micra etc.... Would qualify as city cars.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The solution to which specific problem?


Helping to alleviate the effects of climate change and its negative affects on the world as we know it now and what has been forecast if we do nothing.

If you believe there is noting we can do then it is the end of the discussion. But presumably seeing as you have been engaged now for years on the topic of climate change I would think that you had an interest in affecting some sort of change and possible action if not solution.

Based on a recent post of yours it seems you just want to add to the voices of "disbelief".

Is that correct?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Offering solutions to non-existent problems requires heavy criticism.


So you don't believe that the climate is changing and in a way that is negatively affecting life on and earth and not only humane life? Is that correct?


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Smartcars, Nissan Micra etc.... Would qualify as city cars.


Thx for clarifying. Not sure I agree but I understand your statement now.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Actually, I think we agree. Also check out post 14972, eMacman also makes a good point. But the more we examine the greater fault we find, whether C02, or anything. The issue is always what does it cost, or is it worth the expense. Unfortunately it tends to take a global catastrophe to get people's attention. My hope is that if there is a tipping point it is not a permanent line that is crossed ..... And we may never know until we cross it. S*o, again, I ask what is the harm in making the planet a little cleaner and more livable.*


I see no harm, except to oil producing countries such as our own.

But also I do think that the G7 plan to end use of fossil fuels by 2100 is extremely ambitious at best and more likely impossible.

Even if by some miracle we could stop using fossil fuels, as fuel by 2100 we would still need oil and its byproducts well beyond 2100 for a plethora of manufacturing processes and products. Not unless we have some miraculous discoveries made along the way.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I could give you a long list, but here's the Cole's Notes version. Due to the lack of foresight by our major cities with respect to people movement, and also that Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal have become city states ... I am not surprised they haven't tried being provinces among themselves, moving people has become a bankruptable topic. They will do anything to finance public transit and ease congestion. This means virtually all roads into the city may potentially become full pay roads ( toll roads if you will ). Since we do not have a current alternative for the masses, why not ease them into a temporary alternative ..... City cars. I see you are from Alberta. To me Alberta is evenly divided into Calgary, Edmonton and then everywhere else. Calgary and Edmonton may not be far off of Toronto's right to entitlement here in Ontario.


Rps what are your policy suggestions to bring about the desired result that you stated, i.e. city cars?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So you don't believe that the climate is changing and in a way that is negatively affecting life on and earth and not only humane life? Is that correct?


By all means we affect animal life by destroying habitats and engaging in practices like overfishing. To the mild extent that we affect climate, except in extremely local ways, there is an extremely weak link. There is no significant difference between the climate now and over the length of human history. We are not seeing more storms, more significant storms, more severe droughts, more heat, or more significant heat than is explainable by natural variation. Human activity falls between the cracks of statistical significance. 

Anyone who claims that reducing CO2 will result in lower temperatures is preaching voodoo. It's the modern equivalent of auguring.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Anyone who claims that reducing CO2 will result in lower temperatures is preaching voodoo. It's the modern equivalent of auguring.


Well it is quite possible it might appear that way. We are of course talking smoke and mirrors, however the climate scientists who have been studying the various long term climate cycles seem to be in agreement that we are close to some sort of ice-age. Obviously if that happens efforts to reverse AGW by reducing CO2 output will appear to have been successful.

Of course whether it turns out to be along the lines of the mini ice age or something more significant will depend a lot on what else mother nature throws into the mix. For example an eruption of one of the super caldera volcanos would simultaneously greatly increase atmospheric CO2, and result in a major degree of cooling perhaps enough to change a mini age into one such as we had about 10,000 years ago.

EDIT: Wow somehow managed to snag the 15,000th post in this thread.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> Rps what are your policy suggestions to bring about the desired result that you stated, i.e. city cars?


Have to be careful here as we in Canada do not make them, but we could offer a rebate similar to electric cars, we could also bring in road tolls to our downtown core but not if you have a city car. We could also encourage manufacturers to bring more models to urban areas.


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## Rps

screature said:


> I see no harm, except to oil producing countries such as our own.
> 
> But also I do think that the G7 plan to end use of fossil fuels by 2100 is extremely ambitious at best and more likely impossible.
> 
> Even if by some miracle we could stop using fossil fuels, as fuel by 2100 we would still need oil and its byproducts well beyond 2100 for a plethora of manufacturing processes and products. Not unless we have some miraculous discoveries made along the way.


I agree. The automobile has been around since the 1800s, gas engines and all. So what fuel would you use for airplanes ..... In the scheme of things 2100 is not that far off.


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## BigDL

Rps said:


> I agree. The automobile has been around since the 1800s, gas engines and all. So what fuel would you use for airplanes ..... In the scheme of things 2100 is not that far off.


The horse and the oxen were popular for thousands of years before they were displaced in decades. 

Likely we will not see the next big thing before it hits.


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## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The horse and the oxen were popular for thousands of years before they were displaced in decades.
> 
> Likely we will not see the next big thing before it hits.


Absolutely. It will be adopted because it is superior to what's available now--not because it's subsidized.

The driverless car will have a huge impact on transportation, simply because it will make traffic more efficient and allow people to work while their car drives. You will actually be able to send a car back home without expensive downtown parking and have it pick you up later. That innovation will need to settle out first.


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## screature

Macfury said:


> Absolutely. It will be adopted because it is superior to what's available now--not because it's subsidized.
> 
> *The driverless car *will have a huge impact on transportation, simply because it will make traffic more efficient and allow people to work while their car drives. You will actually be able to send a car back home without expensive downtown parking and have it pick you up later. *That innovation will need to settle out first.*


It seems there have been a number of them out there for some time now, they just weren't advertized or sold as such.

Yep there will be plenty of deaths and injuries as the kinks are worked out. But then again that is the history of any form of transportation going all the way back to when we first domesticated horses.


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## Macfury

The ones I've seen are so cautious that I would trust them more than some humans. Yes, there will be accidents, but ultimately I believe that it will make city traffic massively more efficient and safer. Few people who own a car would choose transit over self-driving vehicles.



screature said:


> Yep there will be plenty of deaths and injuries as the kinks are worked out. But then again that is the history of any form of transportation going all the way back to when we first domesticated horses.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Absolutely. It will be adopted because it is superior to what's available now--not because it's subsidized.
> 
> 
> 
> The driverless car will have a huge impact on transportation, simply because it will make traffic more efficient and allow people to work while their car drives. You will actually be able to send a car back home without expensive downtown parking and have it pick you up later. That innovation will need to settle out first.



One dead child killed by a driverless car is all it will take to end this fool's errand. Reality and its unexpected ways does not fit very well into Google's algorithm.


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## Aurora

In 1977, two 747s collided on the ground at Tenerife with the loss of 583 people. It didn't stop the air industry. People still fly today.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The ones I've seen are so cautious that I would trust them more than some humans. Yes, there will be accidents, but ultimately I believe that it will make city traffic massively more efficient and safer. Few people who own a car would choose transit over self-driving vehicles.





> It seems there have been a number of them out there for some time now, they just weren't advertized or sold as such.


i.e., people who text etc. and drive now... they are basically "driverless" cars.

Geesh, tough crowd, I didn't think I needed to ad a  to get my point/humour across.

This thread is at times getting a little too serious for me with very little comic relief.


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## screature

Aurora said:


> In 1977, two 747s collided on the ground at Tenerife with the loss of 583 people. It didn't stop the air industry. People still fly today.


Yep tis true.


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## Macfury

You are absolutely wrong and it isn't only Google working on this. The number of people who die from being hit by a driverless car will be nowhere near the death toll exacted by human drivers. As I said, the driverless vehicles are so timid they brake for butterflies.




fjnmusic said:


> One dead child killed by a driverless car is all it will take to end this fool's errand. Reality and its unexpected ways does not fit very well into Google's algorithm.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You are absolutely wrong and it isn't only Google working on this. The number of people who die from being hit by a driverless car will be nowhere near the death toll exacted by human drivers. As I said, the driverless vehicles are so timid they brake for butterflies.



I think you're the one who's wrong here. There's something somehow emasculating about not driving your own vehicle. Turns you into sort of a wuss. It's hard enough to be a passenger with a human driver, let alone trusting that this vehicle will somehow do what it has to do without your involvement. Seems like the exact opposite of driver safety. Yup, you just read the newspaper while your vehicle hurtles 110 km/h down the road. In a blizzard. Where you can't see ten feet in front of you.


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## Macfury

You embraced socialism long ago, and now you're worried about driverless cars emasculating you?



fjnmusic said:


> I think you're the one who's wrong here. There's something somehow emasculating about not driving your own vehicle. Turns you into sort of a wuss. It's hard enough to be a passenger with a human driver, let alone trusting that this vehicle will somehow do what it has to do without your involvement. Seems like the exact opposite of driver safety. Yup, you just read the newspaper while your vehicle hurtles 110 km/h down the road. In a blizzard. Where you can't see ten feet in front of you.


----------



## Macfury

I see the Lberals have run out of money. Justin Trudeau's new slogan for the Liberals: "Real Change." The kind of marketing you can find at the bottom of a cereal box.

Promises mandatory voting. Typical authoritarian government ideals.


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## Macfury

Liberals losing steam as election approaches, polls suggest - Politics - CBC News

Not looking good for Justin.


> Less than a year ago, the Liberals under Justin Trudeau were comfortably leading in the polls, their victory against a tired Conservative government and drifting NDP opposition looking all but inevitable.
> 
> Today, the party is losing steam and in danger of dropping out of a three-way race with its erstwhile floundering opponents.
> 
> That the Liberals have been slumping in the polls for months has been overshadowed by the sudden NDP surge since the victory of its provincial cousins in Alberta in May. *But the Liberal slide has been prolonged and significant.*


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I see the Lberals have run out of money. Justin Trudeau's new slogan for the Liberals: "Real Change." The kind of marketing you can find at the bottom of a cereal box.
> 
> Promises mandatory voting. Typical authoritarian government ideals.


I am 100% in favour of mandatory voting. If there is an option for None of the above, and if all votes in the House of Commons are free votes. A parliamentarians job should be to represent his constituency to the Government, not simply be a robber stamp for his parties views.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I am 100% in favour of mandatory voting. If there is an option for None of the above, and if all votes in the House of Commons are free votes. A parliamentarians job should be to represent his constituency to the Government, not simply be a robber stamp for his parties views.


Then you are not in favour of it, as you will get the first, but not the second and third.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Then you are not in favour of it, as you will get the first, but not the second and third.


Sadly you are quite correct. 

I would love it if the majority of the seats saw a None of the Above winner, then the leader of each of the parties was forced to retire without a pension! 

Realistically the None of the Above option would be quite useless until MPs are allowed to represent their constituents views.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You embraced socialism long ago, and now you're worried about driverless cars emasculating you?



Not sure what one has to do with the other. You seem to be grasping at straws here.


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## Macfury

OK, so it's a straw--but I'm not grasping at it.



fjnmusic said:


> Not sure what one has to do with the other. You seem to be grasping at straws here.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> I am 100% in favour of mandatory voting. If there is an option for None of the above, and if all votes in the House of Commons are free votes. A parliamentarians job should be to represent his constituency to the Government, not simply be a robber stamp for his parties views.



Perhaps you'd be in favor of reverse voting. http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/...isherman-pen-fest-elopement-planner-1.2864828


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## Macfury

Kind of funny.



fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps you'd be in favor of reverse voting. Reverse Voting, Crack Fisherman, Pen Fest, Elopement Planner - Home | This is That with Pat Kelly and Peter Oldring | CBC Radio
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Liberals losing steam as election approaches, polls suggest - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Not looking good for Justin.


I'm not worried about Justin anymore it is Mulcair who concerns me more now.

I always felt that JT and his support was likely to implode at some point. That has not quite happened yet but clearly the romance is wearing off.

It was a great show down today in QP today between Mulcair and Harper today.

Mulcair touched on all his "hot" points and the PM successfully stood his ground and even managed to get in a good jab at Mulcair with his error in what he said to the media about what the corporate tax rate is in Canada and then had to admit in the interview he didn't know it, but said that it was too low. For those who watched, Mulcair was visibly shaken and red faced, it was all he could do to compose himself and control his latent rage. Priceless!

It is so priceless I just have to post this and it is an accurate reporting of real events, thank god some people are still capable of it: 

Mulcair's tax math mocked by Harper 



> Tom Mulcair is having a little trouble with numbers even as he attempts to reassure the business community that New Democrats would be prudent managers of the public purse.
> 
> The NDP leader told a Bay Street audience Tuesday that his child care plan "over the next 10 years will deliver one million, $15-a-day child care spaces across Canada."
> 
> In fact, the NDP plan is to be rolled out over eight years.
> 
> An aide said the 10-year reference was a "speechwriter error."
> 
> Then on Wednesday, Mulcair told CBC Radio's "The Current" that the existing corporate tax rate is "about 12, 13 (per cent), something like that right now."
> 
> In fact, the corporate tax rate, which Mulcair has vowed to raise by an unspecified amount, is 15 per cent.
> 
> Mulcair said later that he was referring to the difference between the combined federal-state corporate tax rate in the United States and the combined federal-provincial tax rate in Canada.
> 
> The combined U.S. rate is 39 per cent, almost 13 percentage points higher than Canada's combined rate of 26.3 per cent.
> 
> Mulcair said he takes "responsibility for my lack of clarity" but then went on to muddy the corporate tax waters once again.
> 
> "We've always said one thing," he said outside the NDP's weekly caucus meeting. "We want to make sure that the Canadian tax rate for our large corporations remains below the U.S. combined rate and we're going to continue to work on that."
> 
> He added: "It'll be done incrementally. We'll stay below the U.S. average."
> 
> But, in fact, Mulcair has not always said that one thing.
> 
> *Last September, Mulcair told Maclean's magazine that Canada's corporate tax rate has "dropped way below the OECD average, way below what the Americans are paying.
> 
> He said an NDP government would keep corporate taxes below the American rate and "we'll also wind up below the OECD average. But we're so far below both right now it doesn't make any sense."
> 
> In fact, Canada's tax rate is already slightly above the average 26.0 per cent imposed by the 34 countries that belong to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.
> 
> Since that interview, Mulcair hasn't mentioned the OECD and has talked instead about bringing Canada's corporate tax rate more in line with the average of G7 industrialized countries.
> 
> "We're way below the G7 average so those are our main trading partners, countries with economies similar to ours," he told CTV's Canada AM in January.
> 
> The average corporate tax rate for G7 countries is 29.9 per cent, 3.6 percentage points higher than Canada's.*
> 
> During his radio interview Wednesday, Mulcair said an NDP government would hike federal corporate taxes to "something in the 18 to 19 (per cent) range" - a three-to-four-point increase he said would bring Canada in line with the G7 average.
> 
> But a few hours later outside his party's caucus meeting, he didn't mention the G7 at all and talked only about staying below the U.S. rate, which is the highest among all the OECD and G7 countries.
> 
> *Which tax bar Mulcair really intends to limbo under makes a huge difference, since he's relying on the promised corporate tax hike to rake in much of the revenue he'll need to pay for child care and other pricey promises.*
> 
> Erin Weir, a labour economist running for the NDP in Saskatchewan, has estimated that each percentage point increase in the corporate tax rate would generate about $1.5 billion in revenue each year.
> 
> However, other economists have warned that the move wouldn't bring in as much money as the NDP thinks because corporations would simply shift income to other countries to avoid paying the extra taxes.
> *
> In the Commons on Wednesday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper needled Mulcair about his apparent confusion about corporate taxes.*
> 
> *"When asked, 'What is the tax rate exactly?', he did not know and stated it was three points lower than it actually is," Harper said in a raucous question period that featured repeated pointed jabs at Mulcair, the current darling of public opinion polls.
> 
> "That is typical of the NDP. It does not know what the taxes are; it just knows everybody's taxes have to be higher."*


JT may as well have not been there and I think it a portent of what is to come in the debates for JT.

JT will be on the sidelines, a second stringer trying to get into the game, but the real fight/game will be between Harper and Mulcair.


----------



## fjnmusic

If Harper is to remain as PM, I would like to see him returned to minority government status.


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> If Harper is to remain as PM, I would like to see him returned to minority government status.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have no problem with that. 

It would prove to be an interesting time in Canadian politics. 

But we all know that will then mean that the Libs and the NDP will immediately (over a more secure telephone line) form at least an "informal" coalition.

That way they can avoid the ego battle between Mulcair and Trudeau over who is the "Leader" of the "Coalition".

If Harper doesn't win a majority then he will IMO resign and therefore a new CPC leader has to be voted for by the CPC of Canada and then a "safe" backbencher will resign his/her seat so that a bi-election will be held and who would you have to vote for Joe Shmoe or the potential PM of Canada, making it that much more interesting.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> I have no problem with that.
> 
> 
> 
> It would prove to be an interesting time in Canadian politics.
> 
> 
> 
> But we all know that will then mean that the Libs and the NDP will immediately (over a more secure telephone line) form at least an "informal" coalition.
> 
> 
> 
> That way they can avoid the ego battle between Mulcair and Trudeau over who is the "Leader" of the "Coalition".
> 
> 
> 
> If Harper doesn't win a majority then he will IMO resign and therefore a new CPC leader has to be voted for by the CPC of Canada and then a "safe" backbencher will resign his/her seat so that a bi-election will be held and who you have to vote for is Joe shmoe or the potential PM of Canada, making it that much more interesting.



I wonder if he would pull Jim Prentice and resign before they even finish counting the votes if the PC's get their asses kicked. Unfortunately, I don't think either Mulcair or Trudeau is the one to do it.


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## Macfury

MMulcair's strength in Quebec following the Layton sell-out may be tenuous with Duceppe returning. A lot to happen before October.


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I wonder if he would pull Jim Prentice and resign before they even finish counting the votes *if the PC's get their asses kicked*. Unfortunately, I don't think either Mulcair or Trudeau is the one to do it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Jim Prentice was always a businessman first and not a politician. Harper is a politician through and through. That he is running to be PM again if proof enough of that.

I don't think that will happen... it may, you never know. But I doubt it. This is going to be a very interesting election. 

Hold on to your hats ladies and gentlemen!!!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> MMulcair's strength in Quebec following the Layton sell-out may be tenuous with Duceppe returning. *A lot to happen before October*.


Agreed. You can rest assured a lot *will* happen before October 19th.

*LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!* beejacon


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I am 100% in favour of mandatory voting. If there is an option for None of the above, and if all votes in the House of Commons are free votes. A parliamentarians job should be to represent his constituency to the Government, not simply be a robber stamp for his parties views.


I am 100% against it, even though I always vote at every level of government, Municipal, Provincial and Federal.

In a democracy you should have the freedom *not *to vote.

I am really surprised you feel that way since you seem to think that the government is already meddling too much in people's privacy. Coercing people to vote with the threat of penalty if you don't vote is completely anti-democratic.

Seeing how you believe in mandatory voting what should the penalty be for not falling into line and obeying the will of the government?

$1000? 2 months in prison? One hundred lashes? What level of punishment is appropriate?

What if you have dementia? A debilitating disease that makes it a burden on you to go the polls, etc?

We are already burdened enough with mandatory obligations imposed upon us by all the levels of government. Suffrage has been long fought for around the world since the dawn of democracy but it is completely anti-democratic to compel one to vote, it is antithetical to the very notion of democracy.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You are absolutely wrong and it isn't only Google working on this. *The number of people who die from being hit by a driverless car will be nowhere near the death toll exacted by human drivers.* As I said, the driverless vehicles are so timid they brake for butterflies.


You have no way to be sure of that at this point in time. Maybe when the technology is mature it may be the case. Driverless cars will be by their very nature vulnerable to cyber attacks that could cause havoc and multiple deaths and injuries just from one attack.

At this point I think you are being a little too trusting in the prospect of the technology and not looking critically at the potential downsides at least form the posts you have made.


----------



## Macfury

Just like our jet fleets and entire economic system are vulnerable to cyber attacks.

Driverless cars will initially be independently controlled, so they will not be vulnerable to cyber attacks except on an individual basis. I expect busy downtown cores will eventually make it mandatory to give over control of one's car as a condition of entry. The tech will be here so fast it will make your head spin.



screature said:


> You have no way to be sure of that at this point in time. Maybe when the technology is mature it may be the case. Driverless cars will be by their very nature vulnerable to cyber attacks that could cause havoc and multiple deaths and injuries just from one attack.
> 
> At this point I think you are being a little too trusting in the prospect of the technology and not looking critically at the potential downsides at least form the posts you have made.


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> I am 100% in favour of mandatory voting. If there is an option for None of the above, and if all votes in the House of Commons are free votes. A parliamentarians job should be to represent his constituency to the Government, not simply be a robber stamp for his parties views.


I also agree we need mandatory voting. Contrary to popular opinion we in Canada are not a democracy but we have democratic processes. If you, indeed, want a democracy all members must cast their say.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Just like our jet fleets and entire economic system are vulnerable to cyber attacks.
> 
> *Driverless cars will initially be independently controlled,* so they will not be vulnerable to cyber attacks except on an individual basis. I expect busy downtown cores will eventually make it mandatory to give over control of one's car as a condition of entry.* The tech will be here so fast it will make your head spin.*


What does that even mean? Link?

I highly doubt that is going to happen in your or my lifetime thank god!

For someone who says his life is own I find your comments on the subject confounding.

Are you shifting to the left just a little bit?


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I also agree we need mandatory voting. Contrary to popular opinion we in Canada are not a democracy but we have democratic processes. If you, indeed, want *a democracy all members must cast their say*.


I completely disagree there is no MUST vote int the meaning of democracy:



> democracy |diˈmäkrəsē|
> noun (pl. democracies)
> a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives: capitalism and democracy are ascendant in the third world.
> • a state governed by a democracy: a multiparty democracy.
> • control of an organization or group by the majority of its members: the intended extension of industrial democracy.
> • the practice or principles of social equality: demands for greater democracy.


Nowhere is there a *must *in these definitions.

Rights and Freedoms, *not what one is compelled to do through coercion* by any level of government.

So by extension should it be mandatory to vote in municipal and provincial elections as well? If so why? If not why not?

If I am a shareholder in a corporation should it be mandatory that I cast a vote for the Board of Directors? Where does it end and what could the possible reasoning be that if it applicable to one level of "politics" it in not applicable to them all?

Not to mention the privacy issue. I should have the right and freedom to keep private my political inclinations, by not voting at all, from the government of the day.

Mandatory voting has far reaching implications that I don't think JT, ehMacMan or you have fully thought through.


----------



## Macfury

It means that the car itself will have the capability to negotiate the road independently--not from some central control.

Self-parking cars are just part of the conditioning that people are already accepting. You may disagree with this report, but I'd put money on it:

https://www.navigantresearch.com/ne...35-are-expected-to-have-autonomous-capability

» Autonomous Vehicles Navigant Research

However, just because I believe it's gong to happen, doesn't mean I want to ride in a driverless car. I would want both hands on the steering wheel.





screature said:


> What does that even mean? Link?
> 
> I highly doubt that not going to happen in your or my lifetime thank god!
> 
> For someone who says his life is own I find your comments on the subject confounding.
> 
> Are you shifting to the left just a little bit?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I also agree we need mandatory voting. Contrary to popular opinion we in Canada are not a democracy but we have democratic processes. If you, indeed, want a democracy all members must cast their say.


Not at all. That isn't even part of the definition of democracy. You and others seem to have an authoritarian fetish about controlling people to make them vote.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *It means that the car itself will have the capability to negotiate the road independently--not from some central control.*
> 
> Self-parking cars are just part of the conditioning that people are already accepting. You may disagree with this report, but I'd put money on it:
> 
> https://www.navigantresearch.com/ne...35-are-expected-to-have-autonomous-capability
> 
> » Autonomous Vehicles Navigant Research
> 
> *However, just because I believe it's gong to happen, doesn't mean I want to ride in a driverless car. I would want both hands on the steering wheel.*


Based on what? There has to be some sort of centralized database to make it work together and at what cost? Who pays for what.

The links that you provided just make it more clear to me that the technology is in its infancy and will not happen in our lifetime.

We are still are far away from living the life of the Jetsons IMO.

Whew.


----------



## heavyall

Mandatory voting is antithetical to the idea of democracy. Freedom means both the freedom to be involved, and the freedom not to if that's what you choose.


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> Mandatory voting is antithetical to the idea of democracy. Freedom means both the freedom to be involved, and the freedom not to if that's what you choose.


Sad, but all too true, heavyall. Still, with freedom comes responsibility to use that freedom wisely.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> I also agree we need mandatory voting. Contrary to popular opinion we in Canada are not a democracy but we have democratic processes. If you, indeed, want a democracy all members must cast their say.



Must have the OPPORTUNITY to have their say. There is a big difference, and what you propose is not democracy but dictatorship. Must....Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> Mandatory voting is antithetical to the idea of democracy. Freedom means both the freedom to be involved, and the freedom not to if that's what you choose.


This.

Mandatory voting is a ridiculous proposal. It goes against all democratic principles.


----------



## Macfury

Good post, fjn.



fjnmusic said:


> Must have the OPPORTUNITY to have their say. There is a big difference, and what you propose is not democracy but dictatorship. Must....Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> Must have the OPPORTUNITY to have their say. There is a big difference, and what you propose is not democracy but dictatorship. Must....Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I seem to be in the minority here, but that's Okay! We will have to agree to disagree. However, mandatory voting is not a dictatorship, nor have I suggested which party you should vote for ..... now that would be a dictatorship. Nested in mandatory voting should be a none of the above or a protest vote election. Now I know what comments will come from this so no need to write them. However our per cent of voting is dropping, and whether you favour FPTP, Proportional, or Ordinated voting, none of these will cure our dropping voters. It doesn't matter how fair your system is if the minority are the only supporters.


----------



## Macfury

Why is it a problem if only a minority of voters exercise their rights to vote, while others are opting not to? Why does this "problem" require a "cure"?



Rps said:


> However our per cent of voting is dropping, and whether you favour FPTP, Proportional, or Ordinated voting, none of these will cure our dropping voters. It doesn't matter how fair your system is if the minority are the only supporters.


----------



## eMacMan

You will never see this on the census, but I believe that a vast majority of those who do vote are voting against what they view as the most objectionable parties. 

I will go even further and say that those who believe they should vote for someone will probably find all parties extremely objectionable and have no choice except to not vote at all. 

The fact that nearly 50% of the population finds all parties equally dangerous is an indictment of our so-called political leaders and not of those who refuse to endorse the bums.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Why is it a problem if only a minority of voters exercise their rights to vote, while others are opting not to? Why does this "problem" require a "cure"?


Maybe cure isn't the right word but .... Is this not similar to the arguments of abolishing FPTP .... it doesn't represent the mass. Maybe the best answer would be a blending of the FPTP and Proportional approaches. We have 308 members in the House. What if we borrow an Electoral College and calculate a representative number of votes not seats. Say we like round numbers ...500. So to pass a law the parties would need their won seats plus the percent of popular vote to pass a law. 308 elected 192 Represented votes. the represented votes would be based on the popular proportion voted by the voters. these would be allocated to the parties for each vote. This might reflect the mood of the country without mandating everyone to vote as the results may indicate the views of the whole country on a "sample" basis.


----------



## Macfury

At this point, we could probably get people to vote directly on most issues via Internet. If you're worried about the"mood of the people" why not just let them vote on all major issues directly?



Rps said:


> Maybe cure isn't the right word but .... Is this not similar to the arguments of abolishing FPTP .... it doesn't represent the mass. Maybe the best answer would be a blending of the FPTP and Proportional approaches. We have 308 members in the House. What if we borrow an Electoral College and calculate a representative number of votes not seats. Say we like round numbers ...500. So to pass a law the parties would need their won seats plus the percent of popular vote to pass a law. 308 elected 192 Represented votes. the represented votes would be based on the popular proportion voted by the voters. these would be allocated to the parties for each vote. This might reflect the mood of the country without mandating everyone to vote as the results may indicate the views of the whole country on a "sample" basis.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Nested in mandatory voting should be a none of the above or a protest vote election.


OK, so we've had our mandatory vote election, the winner is in office & 15%/38%/61% (or whatever) of the voters have registered a "none of the above" or protest vote.

Now what? What does this particular action accomplish? What do you hope to gain with this information? How can it be useful in an applied situation?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> At this point, we could probably get people to vote directly on most issues via Internet. If you're worried about the"mood of the people" why not just let them vote on all major issues directly?


At face value why not, but most do not follow issues only media.... But the point is well taken. Maybe we should move toward propositions.


----------



## eMacMan

Turns out the lawyers are saying exactly the same things about Bill C-24 that I was condemned for saying on this very forum. I think it is a treasonous crime that Canadians are forced to spend big bucks mounting constitutional challenges because this Government is too arrogant to seek a Supreme Court opinion before attempting to abridge civil rights, and freedoms.

https://bccla.org/2015/06/its-official-second-class-citizenship-goes-into-effect/



> *Last Friday, part of Bill C-24 went into effect, officially creating a two-tier citizenship system.* As a result of this new law, dual citizens and people who have immigrated to Canada can have their citizenship taken away while other Canadians cannot. The government’s press release last week tried to justify this discriminatory law by raising the threat of “jihadi terrorism,” but Bill C-24 could easily be used against non-terrorists—for example, a journalist who is convicted of a “terrorism offence” in another country for reporting on human rights violations by the government.
> 
> 
> Under this law, the only Canadians who can never lose their citizenship are those born in Canada who do not have another nationality (and are not eligible to apply for another nationality). No matter what crimes they may be accused of, these first-class citizens can never have their citizenship taken away. On the other hand, *Canadians with another nationality (and those who are eligible to obtain another nationality) now have second-class status, even if they were born in Canada: under Bill C-24, their citizenship can be stripped.*
> 
> Currently, citizenship can be taken away mainly on the basis of crimes that are considered threats to Canada’s national security, like terrorism or espionage, or demonstrations of disloyalty to Canada, like treason. But legal experts warn that the list of offences that could lead to the removal of citizenship might be expanded in the future. Additionally, Bill C-24 punishes criminal activity with exile – a practice abandoned hundreds of years ago that has no place in today’s democracy.
> 
> 
> The government has created an infographic to explain the new citizenship stripping process. There’s one change that really stands out for us in this diagram: the absence of a judge in the new system. The government seems to think that removing the judge improves the process, but we would argue that this makes the process unfair and likely unconstitutional.
> *Dividing people into different classes that receive different treatment under the law is unfair and un-Canadian.* Bill C-24 has turned millions of Canadians into second-class citizens with reduced rights—and as a result, has reduced the value of Canadian citizenship.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, this issue with none of the above is to eliminate minority governments. If none of the above wins no one wins the election and they do it again. Yes I know this is expensive, but if we eliminate the vote of non confidence and allow the elected party to govern its full term. Remember how many federal elections we had in a 12 period a few years ago, all because of the minority government. It is important to remember we do not elect a government but a Parliament.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, this issue with none of the above is to eliminate minority governments. If none of the above wins no one wins the election and they do it again. Yes I know this is expensive, but if we eliminate the vote of non confidence and allow the elected party to govern its full term. Remember how many federal elections we had in a 12 period a few years ago, all because of the minority government. It is important to remember we do not elect a government but a Parliament.


Interesting. So not a fan of minority gov'ts. 

OK, what about the (very possible) likelihood of a deadlock? You've had multiple elections, no one seems willing to change their vote or no politician seems to have the ability to sway voters, so no majority. Then what?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> At face value why not, but most do not follow issues only media.... But the point is well taken. Maybe we should move toward propositions.


If they only follow media, then why do you care if they vote?


----------



## eMacMan

Further on Bill C-24. In the past couple of years thousands of dual Canadian/US citizens have either relinquished or renounced their US citizenship. They were informed by their consulate that the action was irreversible. For those wishing to similarly rid themselves of the most toxic citizenship on the planet, the line-up at some US consular offices in Canada is over a year in length. 

My question is should one of these former US citizens commit an act of anti-Harpoism, will the Harper regime strip them of their Canadian citizenship, claiming they are eligible for US citizenship? Such an action would leave that individual stateless and I am pretty sure Australia is no longer interested in taking in exiles.

Part of the process of relinquishment or renouncement is that after formally filing the paperwork with the US consul there can be a period of as long as a year before the paperwork is rubber stamped in Washington DC. During that period that person is still considered to be a US citizen. Once the forms are rubber stamped that individual then becomes a non-citizen as of the date he originally filed the paperwork with the US consul. IOW for a period of up to a year he/she is a US citizen until he/she magically was not a US citizen for the same period of time. What happens if the Harper regime decides during that limbo period that an individual has committed an anti-Harper crime so severe that they should lose their Canadian citizenship?

Maybe a better question is what idiot drafted that portion of Bill C-24 and why was (s)he not instantly exiled to Antarctica as a reward for their efforts?


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> FeXL, this issue with none of the above is to eliminate minority governments. If none of the above wins no one wins the election and they do it again. Yes I know this is expensive, but if we eliminate the vote of non confidence and allow the elected party to govern its full term. Remember how many federal elections we had in a 12 period a few years ago, all because of the minority government. It is important to remember we do not elect a government but a Parliament.



Interesting. I see minority governments as a good thing and completely democratic. It is a clear message to the governing party from the voters that "we don't trust you...yet." The Harper gov't became increasingly arrogant following their 2011 (and hopefully final) majority win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Agreed. I am generally happy when the government is prevented from doing "big things" because the other parties in a minority government don't agree. I always laugh when people say that "Washington is broken" because Republicans won't give Obama the go-ahead on major legislation--that's why the Republicans were elected, otherwise the voters would have pulled the switch for Democrats!



fjnmusic said:


> Interesting. I see minority governments as a good thing and completely democratic. It is a clear message to the governing party from the voters that "we don't trust you...yet." The Harper gov't became increasingly arrogant following their 2011 (and hopefully final) majority win.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> Interesting. I see minority governments as a good thing and completely democratic. It is a clear message to the governing party from the voters that "we don't trust you...yet." The Harper gov't became increasingly arrogant following their 2011 (and hopefully final) majority win.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed as well. Most useful lawmaking has long since been accomplished. Where refinements are required a great deal more thought is required than went into Bills C-24 and C-51, and the various anti-privacy bills.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Interesting. So not a fan of minority gov'ts.
> 
> OK, what about the (very possible) likelihood of a deadlock? You've had multiple elections, no one seems willing to change their vote or no politician seems to have the ability to sway voters, so no majority. Then what?


I think the last party on the standings drops out of the election and you vote again until you have an absolute winner .... Or, you allow the government to run its full term and do not collapse the process because of the minority position.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> I think you're the one who's wrong here. There's something somehow emasculating about not driving your own vehicle. Turns you into sort of a wuss. It's hard enough to be a passenger with a human driver, let alone trusting that this vehicle will somehow do what it has to do without your involvement.


Maybe not . . .

California reveals details of self-driving car accidents - CBS News


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Maybe not . . .
> 
> 
> 
> California reveals details of self-driving car accidents - CBS News



They could be 100% safe, but the JohnnyCab revolution seems to be in total contradiction to the "no distracted driving" sentiment we see today. You've seen Total Recall? Which begs the question....if a self-driving vehicle does get into a collision, who is at fault? Google?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

But, from the article...



> According to the reports, most of the cars were in self-driving mode when the accidents happened, *and the other driver caused the accident...*


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> But, from the article...



"Most" is not "all" amigo. How do insurance companies view this situation? Driving without due care and attention is a criminal offense in Canada. That means taking your eyes off the road, especially for the extended periods of time required to, say, take a nap or read a book.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

The insurance companies would charge the person inside the car that was responsible for the accident.



fjnmusic said:


> "Most" is not "all" amigo. How do insurance companies view this situation? Driving without due care and attention is a criminal offense in Canada. That means taking your eyes off the road, especially for the extended periods of time required to, say, take a nap or read a book.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

The insurance companies would charge the person inside the car that was responsible for the accident. And driverless cars will never be 100% safe--just safer than human drivers.



fjnmusic said:


> "Most" is not "all" amigo. How do insurance companies view this situation? Driving without due care and attention is a criminal offense in Canada. That means taking your eyes off the road, especially for the extended periods of time required to, say, take a nap or read a book.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

I think it is terrible, showing Dean Del Mastro being 'perp walked' in shackles and handcuffs being sent off to jail. 

The media and the justice system in Canada are getting as foolish as those in them Excited States.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I think it is terrible, showing Dean Del Mastro being 'perp walked' in shackles and handcuffs being sent off to jail.
> 
> The media and the justice system in Canada are getting as foolish as those in them Excited States.


True ................. for one month in a minimum security jail this is strange. Now, if he was given some real jail time and was a flight risk, I can see all these shackles. After all, it was only a federal election.


----------



## BigDL

The level of violence that Dean Del Mastro might inflict on any Canadian would be issued from his mouth, in the form of statements such as "baseless smears and unfounded accusations." Therefore a muzzle for Dean or hearing protection for bystanders should sufficient. 

If protocol required handcuffs shouldn't that be enough? After all the man was found guilty of committing non-violent white collar crimes.

The media should not pillory people until at least the guilty verdict and the justice system should only use restraints in keeping with the risk.

Interestingly, a Halifax man shown numerous time in the media, doing the 'perp walk' was recently found not guilty after spending 5 months in jail until the end of the trial.










Halifax man found not guilty of threats to police in chemicals case - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I think it is terrible, showing Dean Del Mastro being 'perp walked' in shackles and handcuffs being sent off to jail.
> 
> The media and the justice system in Canada are getting as foolish as those in them Excited States.





Dr.G. said:


> True ................. for one month in a minimum security jail this is strange. Now, if he was given some real jail time and was a flight risk, I can see all these shackles. After all, it was only a federal election.





BigDL said:


> The level of violence that Dean Del Mastro might inflict on any Canadian would be issued from his mouth, in the form of statements such as "baseless smears and unfounded accusations." Therefore a muzzle for Dean or hearing protection for bystanders should sufficient.
> 
> If protocol required handcuffs shouldn't that be enough? After all the man was found guilty of committing non-violent white collar crimes.
> 
> The media should not pillory people until at least the guilty verdict and the justice system should only use restraints in keeping with the risk.
> 
> Interestingly, a Halifax man shown numerous time in the media, doing the 'perp walk' was recently found not guilty after spending 5 months in jail until the end of the trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Halifax man found not guilty of threats to police in chemicals case - The Globe and Mail


So what do you think, without being facetious, should have been the appropriate sentence if you had your way ?


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> So what do you think, without being facetious, should have been the appropriate sentence if you had your way ?


Michael Sona got 9 months plus a years probation for robocalls, Del Mastro stole an election so more than a guy prank calling.

Michael Sona sentenced to 9 months in jail for 'callous' robocalls - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Yep--that's out of whack.

Good posts, BigDL. I've enjoyed your reasoning on these.

Both are guilty, but I would have reversed the sentences.



BigDL said:


> Michael Sona got 9 months plus a years probation for robocalls, Del Mastro stole an election so more than a guy prank calling.
> 
> Michael Sona sentenced to 9 months in jail for 'callous' robocalls - Politics - CBC News


----------



## screature

How so? Sona tried to divert eligible electors from being able to vote at all.

Del Mastro fudged some numbers to try to spend more on his election campaign.

Sona's crime was greater than Del Mastro's IMO and thus the difference in sentence.

Unless you and BigDL think there is some collusion between the government and the courts to give Sona a harsher sentence than Del Mastro I think the courts were correct in their sentencing.


----------



## eMacMan

I think Canada's courts are a good deal less corrupt than their siblings soused of the border. 

Hopefully our supreme court is still unbiased enough to deliver a few more crotch shots to the Harper Government, particularly on bills C-51, C-24 and the FATCA IGA.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I* think Canada's courts are a good deal less corrupt than their siblings soused of the border. *
> 
> Hopefully our supreme court is still unbiased enough to deliver a few more crotch shots to the Harper Government, particularly on bills *C-51, C-24 and the FATCA* IGA.


So then why do you question the ruling of the Canadian courts?

C-51, C-24 and the FATCA ... none of of which are being contested in court. Not even this guy Rocco Galati who despite the shady "evidence/journalism" and false title presented by The Tyee never even issued a Constitutional challenge. it was a complete journalistic lie on the part of the Tyee.

FATCA will most likely never be subject to a Constitutional challenge that will ever amount to anything other than a bunch of lawyers making a lot of money and the outcome/reality will be the same IMO.

You are flogging a dead ehMacMan.

Time to fess up and pay the taxes that you owe.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> So then why do you question the ruling of the Canadian courts?
> 
> C-51, C-24 and the FATCA ... none of of which are being contested in court. Not even this guy Rocco Galati who despite the shady "evidence/journalism" and false title presented by The Tyee never even issued a Constitutional challenge. it was a complete journalistic lie on the part of the Tyee.
> 
> FATCA most will never will be IMO.
> 
> Time to fess up and pay the taxes that you owe.


Wrongo The FATCA IGA challenge is well underway with an early August court date coming up. 

I know there is a C-51 challenge in the works but as you are well aware it takes some time to get these before a court.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Wrongo The FATCA IGA challenge is well underway with an early August court date coming up.
> 
> I know there is a C-51 challenge in the works but as you are well aware it takes some time to get these before a court.


Show me.


----------



## eMacMan

> *On August 11, 2014 Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen filed a lawsuit against the
> FATCA agreement in Federal Court of Canada. See the Claims.
> *
> 
> *See the Motion for Summary Trial Hearing: August 4-5, 2015 in Vancouver, B.C.: Volume 1/Volume 2/ Volume 3/ Volume 4 and Memorandum of fact and law*


From here:ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> From here:ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty


Thanks for the info. I still see no *Constitutional challenge* it is just before a Federal Court not the Supreme Court. That is a way off yet. They have to pass this first hurdle before it can go to the Supreme Court. Time will tell...

Listen. IMO FATCA was designed to catch fat cats with millions or billions of dollars. I see no reason for small time potential tax evaders like you and others to be targeted under FATCA. But you are a citizen of the US and are as subject to their laws. Dual citizenship clearly has its benefits of which I am most certainly sure you enjoyed, otherwise why are you only complaining about it now that FATCA has come into existence. You 

As I have said before your anger is misplaced. It should not be directed at the Canadian Government but the country of your origin, the US.

You are still thus far a citizen of the US so why not complain to the originators of FATCA rather than your adoptive country who merely agreed to FATCA for reasons that I am quite sure you have no detailed awareness of because it was conducted in secret. All you can do is speculate as you always do.

Truth be told I think FATCA is meant to haul in the big fish offenders but it was written so poorly it can catch all kinds of small fish. For that you have no one else to blame but your apparent hero Obama. 

If you honestly think there would have been no repercussions for Canada not signing the agreement with the US you are quite mistaken IMO.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Wrongo The FATCA IGA challenge is well underway with an early August court date coming up.


I agree with you eMacMan--whatever FATCA was intended to do, it is now harassing dual citizens and represents a significant rollback of Canadian sovereignty.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I agree with you eMacMan--whatever FATCA was intended to do, it is now harassing dual citizens and represents a significant rollback of Canadian sovereignty.


I agree with you both. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I agree with you eMacMan--whatever FATCA was intended to do, it is now harassing dual citizens and represents a significant rollback of Canadian sovereignty.


It seems your posts are a bit erratic these days MF.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I agree with you eMacMan--whatever FATCA was intended to do, it is now harassing dual citizens and represents a significant rollback of Canadian sovereignty.


FATCA was designed to give the IRS absolute control over every bank in the world. The danger to individuals comes from the one two punch of FATCA and the F(u)BAR reporting forms that individuals have to file. 

Consider one very likely possibility. Joe has a $100,000 RRSP at a big Canadian bank. Its term comes due and it is rolled into an account with a different number, and a few days later Joe opens another term deposit with a third number.

The bank is not required under the FATCA-IGA to report any of these accounts. Joe however is and files his F(u)BAR. It shows three bank accounts with a maximum of $100,000 each, since Joe only had $100,000 last year, finCEN the criminal enforcement arm of the IRS is all over Joe wondering where the extra $200,000 came from. Clearly he must be a drug dealer and a money launderer to have raked in that much cash.

Since there is no way on the F(u)BAR to explain that these are RRSPs, the IRS also assesses a $1,000,000 fine on each of the three bank accounts against the bank, which did not report them because it was not supposed to report them. As if that were not enough of a mess the IRS will also be attempting to collect $150,000 in penalties from Joe for not filing 8938s on those accounts. Joe did not have to file 8938s because he never had over $200,000 total in his bank accounts but all the IRS can see is three accounts totaling $300,000. 

Since the IRS can seize the big banks US assets, it will in all probability give in to IRS demands to freeze Joes accounts until Joe coughs up $150,000 in penalties even though Joe in reality does not owe the IRS a dime. Even then the bank may still be on the hook for those big fines. Both Joe and the bank acted correctly yet the IRS stands to make a cool $3,150,000 on a single account that totals only $100,000. Furthermore Joe stands to lose a sizeable portion if not all of his life savings even though he did everything correctly and does not owe the IRS a dime in taxes.

The real tragedy is that by signing the FATCA-IGA the Harper Government gave its blessing to this double ended extortion scheme and made it effective on Canada Day 2014.

While FATCA and F(u)BARs clearly threaten well over a million tainted Canadians who in almost every case owe the IRS zero in taxes, the real targets are the banks and this is where the IRS has collected almost all of its FATCA based revenue.


----------



## Macfury

I have started to meet people who have the barest of ties to the US, who have been nailed by this stuff. In one case, a person who was four years old when he last lived in Georgia. It's a US government shakedown pure and simple. While I understand that the Canadian government thought it was getting the best deal possible on FATCA, the real-world results for individual, law-abiding citizens make the legislation unsupportable. 

It's no wonder that the US is being pushed aside as new world banking agreements exclude them.



eMacMan said:


> FATCA was designed to give the IRS absolute control over every bank in the world. The danger to individuals comes from the one two punch of FATCA and the F(u)BAR reporting forms that individuals have to file.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I have started to meet people who have the barest of ties to the US, who have been nailed by this stuff. In one case, a person who was four years old when he last lived in Georgia. It's a US government shakedown pure and simple. While I understand that the Canadian government thought it was getting the best deal possible on FATCA, the real-world results for individual, law-abiding citizens make the legislation unsupportable.
> 
> It's no wonder that the US is being pushed aside as new world banking agreements exclude them.


Yep! The smartest thing Canada's banks could have done was gradually divest most if not all of their stateside investments over the past three years. Ultimately these are what leave them vulnerable. It is just beginning to happen in Europe and had Canada started doing the same, Congress would have dumped FATCA like a hot potato.

Sadly the case above is only a tip of the iceberg scenario. If the individual has investment accounts or is self-employed, increase the madness by a couple of orders of magnitude. Speaking as one who for a period of time could not have joint accounts with my spouse and had to consider how every banking transaction would appear on a F(u)BAR the FATCA-IGA needs to be deep sixed immediately if not sooner.

Meanwhile the CRA has collected the first set of data from the banks but is not due to hand that off to the IRS until September. The first data set will leave Canadian banks very vulnerable as they have no way of knowing who amongst their established customers will be filing F(u)BARs. It will also leave individuals who filed F(u)BARs very vulnerable as all of their private banking information will now be in the IRS-finCEN electronic database. In the unlikely event that data base somehow avoids being hacked, the IRS has promised to share it with pretty much any one who asks to see it!

Of course the one concession Harper did win in its two years of secret negotiations, is that the $#!t won't hit the fan until just after the election.


----------



## fjnmusic

Happy Canada Day! 148 years old never looked so good. When I think NDP, this is what I think of: festivals and a celebration of art and culture. And don't forget green onion cakes.

This is whazzzuuuupp in Edmonton this year:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch/story.html?id=11176453


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## Macfury

When I think NDP I think of economic malaise, luddite thinking, and festivals for the simple-minded.



fjnmusic said:


> Happy Canada Day! 148 years old never looked so good. When I think NDP, this is what I think of: festivals and a celebration of art and culture. And don't forget green onion cakes.
> 
> This is whazzzuuuupp in Edmonton this year:
> Here's what's happening today for Canada Day
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

When I think NDP, I think economic failure, proven time and again in other provinces. Alberta is next.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> When I think NDP, I think economic failure, proven time and again in other provinces. Alberta is next.


_*Proven time and again?*_

NDP governments have the best fiscal record of all political parties that have formed federal or provincial government in Canada. 

Of the 52 years the NDP has formed governments in Canada since 1980, they’ve run balanced budgets for exactly half of those years and deficits the other half. This is a better record than both the Conservatives (balanced budgets 37% of years in government) and the Liberals (only 27%), as well as both Social Credit and PQ governments. 

It’s not just the number of years of balance that is relevant: it’s also the size of the deficits or surpluses that are important. For this, the most important figure is the size of deficits as a share of GDP.

For this measure as well, NDP governments have the best record. The average balance (deficit) as a share of provincial GDP for the 52 years of NDP governments in Canada is -0.77%, compared to -1.82% for all Liberal governments and -0.82% for all Conservative governments over the past thirty years.

I have some colourful charts that illustrate these records, but haven’t been able to upload them onto this blog. They and more background details on these numbers are available at:

The Progressive Economics Forum: Fiscal Record of Canadian Political Parties​ (Behind the Numbers)

_*And in anticipation ofvwhat's to come, here's a comment from that blog that seems prescient:
*_
*Comment from Eric *
_Time: April 29, 2011, 12:36 pm_

FORM FOR USE BY RIGHT-WING PARTISANS IN RESPONSE TO ARTICLE: 
_(Please do not deviate from this form)_

[Bob Rae reference]

[Derisive remark about accuracy of data and/or experimental methodology. If possible insinuate socialist inability to do math.]

[Bob Rae reference]

[Remark about Stephen Harper’s handling of the economy which is implicitly the best way to handle the economy.]

[Bob Rae reference]

[Implication that author of article is socialist, insane, whiny, lazy, and impoverished. (Note: The latter four are implicit in the socialist tag, but should be explicitly noted for other socialists who may be unaware)]

[Bob Rae reference]

[Conclusion (ie. Bob Rae reference)]​


----------



## Macfury

Easy to run a balanced budget when you raise taxes sky high.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> _*Proven time and again?*_
> 
> NDP governments have the best fiscal record of all political parties that have formed federal or provincial government in Canada.


Economic success is not measured in balanced budgets, CM.

The evidence lies in the destroyed economies of those provinces and the rejection of the NDP from power in each case.


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> _*Proven time and again?*_
> 
> 
> 
> NDP governments have the best fiscal record of all political parties that have formed federal or provincial government in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 52 years the NDP has formed governments in Canada since 1980, theyve run balanced budgets for exactly half of those years and deficits the other half. This is a better record than both the Conservatives (balanced budgets 37% of years in government) and the Liberals (only 27%), as well as both Social Credit and PQ governments.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not just the number of years of balance that is relevant: its also the size of the deficits or surpluses that are important. For this, the most important figure is the size of deficits as a share of GDP.
> 
> 
> 
> For this measure as well, NDP governments have the best record. The average balance (deficit) as a share of provincial GDP for the 52 years of NDP governments in Canada is -0.77%, compared to -1.82% for all Liberal governments and -0.82% for all Conservative governments over the past thirty years.
> 
> 
> 
> I have some colourful charts that illustrate these records, but havent been able to upload them onto this blog. They and more background details on these numbers are available at:
> 
> 
> 
> The Progressive Economics Forum: Fiscal Record of Canadian Political Parties​ (Behind the Numbers)
> 
> 
> 
> _*And in anticipation ofvwhat's to come, here's a comment from that blog that seems prescient:
> 
> *_
> 
> *Comment from Eric *
> 
> _Time: April 29, 2011, 12:36 pm_
> 
> 
> 
> FORM FOR USE BY RIGHT-WING PARTISANS IN RESPONSE TO ARTICLE:
> 
> _(Please do not deviate from this form)_
> 
> 
> 
> [Bob Rae reference]
> 
> 
> 
> [Derisive remark about accuracy of data and/or experimental methodology. If possible insinuate socialist inability to do math.]
> 
> 
> 
> [Bob Rae reference]
> 
> 
> 
> [Remark about Stephen Harpers handling of the economy which is implicitly the best way to handle the economy.]
> 
> 
> 
> [Bob Rae reference]
> 
> 
> 
> [Implication that author of article is socialist, insane, whiny, lazy, and impoverished. (Note: The latter four are implicit in the socialist tag, but should be explicitly noted for other socialists who may be unaware)]
> 
> 
> 
> [Bob Rae reference]
> 
> 
> 
> [Conclusion (ie. Bob Rae reference)]​



Haters gonna hate, Mark. No cure for that. Happy Canada Day anyway, naysayers! And may you have your fill of Canadian food! I had tourtière for lunch. 😎👍


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----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Economic success is not measured in balanced budgets, CM.
> 
> The evidence lies in the destroyed economies of those provinces and the rejection of the NDP from power in each case.


With all due respect, in the recent Nova Scotia case, despite some major bonehead policy moves from an NDP Premier who campaigned from the left and moved to the centre to govern, the economic measures taken were getting the province back on track. They were tossed not so much for their economic policies as the inability / unwillingness to keep their social policy promises.

Any government - of any political stripe - that inherits a disastrous economic portfolio and then must take difficult measures to address massive debt and deficit will, unless they properly manage the message, suffer the wrath of voters. Long, slow decline is easier for people to handle than the necessary immediate measures to address economic disaster. 

Bringing the ship of state back on course isn't an easy job. It's disheartening to see the NS NDP blow their opportunity so spectacularly, when they were getting the financial house in order, but were not able to engage with voters who heard nothing but the Liberal and PC messages of economic doom. Voter fear is a rotten element in these scenarios.


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## Macfury

That's pretty embarrassing from you, fjn. There's a big difference between measuring objective parameters of failure and "hating." 

You'll probably feel the love as long as teachers are getting cash, even if the economy crumbles around you.


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That's pretty embarrassing from you, fjn. There's a big difference between measuring objective parameters of failure and "hating."
> 
> 
> 
> You'll probably feel the love as long as teachers are getting cash, even if the economy crumbles around you.



That's pretty insulting from you, Macfury, but not a surprise. Teachers have hardly been "feeling the love" in Alberta since Stelmach left office, the last fair-minded PC premier we had. The rest have been posers, not leaders, and they have fed at the Conservative trough as much as the worst of their predecessors. Between 2010-2015, Alberta MLA's voted themselves a 71% wage increase. Meanwhile my fellow teachers and I have had to accept a 0% wage freeze for the past three years, c/o of the previous PC administration, so you know where you can stick your uninformed and patronizing comments.

To everyone else, may you enjoy this fine July 1 celebration of Canada's 148th birthday! 😎👍 So much to celebrate... especially the Orange Wave in Alberta! 😜


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## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Any government - of any political stripe - that inherits a disastrous economic portfolio and then must take difficult measures to address massive debt and deficit will, unless they properly manage the message, suffer the wrath of voters. Long, slow decline is easier for people to handle than the necessary immediate measures to address economic disaster.


“Beasts of England, beasts of Ireland,
Beasts of every land and clime,
Hearken to my joyful tidings
Of the golden future time."


----------



## Macfury

As I said, you will feel the love for the NDP as long as they maintain the cash flow to education.



fjnmusic said:


> That's pretty insulting from you, Macfury, but not a surprise. Teachers have hardly been "feeling the love" in Alberta since Stelmach left office, the last fair-minded PC premier we had. The rest have been posers, not leaders, and they have fed at the Conservative trough as much as the worst of their predecessors.





fjnmusic said:


> Between 2010-2015, Alberta MLA's voted themselves a 71% wage increase. Meanwhile my fellow teachers and I have had to accept a 0% wage freeze for the past three years, c/o of the previous PC administration, so you know where you can stick your uninformed and patronizing comments.


Wahhhhhh! No raises on my gold-plated salary and benefit package. 

I would have cut them all by another 5%--MLAs and teachers.

Average Alberta teacher salary after 10 years: $99,300 (Canada's highest, by the way).
Alberta MLA salary: $127,000 
Average Canadian worker salary: $49,000 

I could understand such high teachers' salaries if nobody wanted to do the job, but there are thousands of qualified people who would kill to get half that salary--and the summer off.

How Alberta public sector workers' pay raises measure up against those of Albert


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## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Easy to run a balanced budget when you raise taxes sky high.


BINGO!!!

Love to see the tax increases implemented by the much vaunted NDP gov'ts compared to other partys. Willing to bet those numbers don't look nearly so golden (for the tax payers)...


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## Macfury

Public sector workers don't seem to mind.



FeXL said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> Love to see the tax increases implemented by the much vaunted NDP gov'ts compared to other partys. Willing to bet those numbers don't look nearly so golden (for the tax payers)...


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> _*Proven time and again?*_
> 
> NDP governments have the best fiscal record of all political parties that have formed federal or provincial government in Canada.
> 
> Of the 52 years the NDP has formed governments in Canada since 1980, they’ve run balanced budgets for exactly half of those years and deficits the other half.​





Unmitigated bull****.

Take one look at how they've achieved those "balanced" budgets in Manitoba, and tell me that it's because they have a good final record. They keep changing the laws on how they have to report deficits, so that they can move them off the books and post a "balanced" budget that is actually billions in arrears. They think that hiding the debt is the same thing as not incurring it. There is a reason why the local media here calls them "weapons of math destruction".​


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Unmitigated bull****.
> 
> 
> 
> Take one look at how they've achieved those "balanced" budgets in Manitoba, and tell me that it's because they have a good final record. They keep changing the laws on how they have to report deficits, so that they can move them off the books and post a "balanced" budget that is actually billions in arrears. They think that hiding the debt is the same thing as not incurring it. There is a reason why the local media here calls them "weapons of math destruction".



Math is hard. So is maintaining a good final record. 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Math is hard.


Most policy ideas on the leftward side of the spectrum seem to boil down to that.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Most policy ideas on the leftward side of the spectrum seem to boil down to that.


The current regime has also failed Math 101. Somewhat spectacularly.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> The current regime has also failed Math 101. Somewhat spectacularly.


Our current government are the best fiscal managers this country has ever had by a very wide margin. No one else has ever had the opposition force an extreme deficit upon them, only to eradicate that deficit in record time all while reducing taxes and increasing funding to social transfers. Literally no one has ever done anything anywhere near as impressive.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Our current government are the best fiscal managers this country has ever had by a very wide margin. No one else has ever had the opposition force an extreme deficit upon them, only to eradicate that deficit in record time all while reducing taxes and increasing funding to social transfers. Literally no one has ever done anything anywhere near as impressive.


Agreed.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Most policy ideas on the leftward side of the spectrum seem to boil down to that.



Funny that it was a right leaning former Alberta premier who made the observation just prior to losing quite spectacularly his 70 seats out of 87 seats majority. Turns out he was really describing his own deficiency when it comes to making predictions about a good time to call an election. 59 new taxes was a tad too many for the average Albertan to stomach along with a year-too-early election call. The left had nothing on the right this round.


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Funny that it was a right leaning former Alberta premier who made the observation just prior to losing quite spectacularly his 70 seats out of 87 seats majority


The last right leaning premier Alberta had was Ralph Klein.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The last right leaning premier Alberta had was Ralph Klein.


They only recognize the bitter fruit of "progressivism" when it's delivered by a party for which they didn't vote.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> The last right leaning premier Alberta had was Ralph Klein.



Also ironic since Ralph Klein was a liberal when he was mayor of Calgary. No, I refer to the last installed part of Harper's team, the right Honourable Mr. Jim Prentice. You can't tell me he wasn't conservative in his political stance and views.


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## Macfury

He wasn't conservative in his political stance and views.




fjnmusic said:


> Also ironic since Ralph Klein was a liberal when he was mayor of Calgary. No, I refer to the last installed part of Harper's team, the right Honourable Mr. Jim Prentice. You can't tell me he wasn't conservative in his political stance and views.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> He wasn't conservative in his political stance and views.



Then you and your people have some serious confusion confusion about what it means to be part of the Conservative/Progressive/Conservative Party of Canada. Prentice was one of Harper's right hand men, supposedly installed ahead of the fed election to make a Harper win easier. Not so much anymore, as the conservative view has definitely waned in Canada.


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Also ironic since Ralph Klein was a liberal when he was mayor of Calgary. No, I refer to the last installed part of Harper's team, the right Honourable Mr. Jim Prentice. You can't tell me he wasn't conservative in his political stance and views.


He absolutely was not conservative in his political stance or his views. Not by any measure. Prentice was a Liberal wearing a blue suit.


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> He absolutely was not conservative in his political stance or his views. Not by any measure. Prentice was a Liberal wearing a blue suit.


I've noted it before but it bears repeating: The Prentice budget was one that any left leaning political party would have been proud to have authored.

Whether or not he was one of Harper's "right hand men", he was no small-c conservative. 

And, I agree: Ralph was the last conservative premier this province has seen. Plus, he was able to balance the budget on $30 oil...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> I've noted it before but it bears repeating: The Prentice budget was one that any left leaning political party would have been proud to have authored.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether or not he was one of Harper's "right hand men", he was no small-c conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> And, I agree: Ralph was the last conservative premier this province has seen. Plus, he was able to balance the budget on $30 oil...



Again, ironic, since Ralph started politics as pretty clearly Liberal, and was only recruited by the PC party when they knew they needed a charismatic leader. And as long as "conservative" means "sticking it to the public service, particularly teachers" (Ralph himself left school in grade 9), then I suppose one could call him conservative. I'd be more inclined to call him opportunist. 

And kid yourself not, Redford and Prentice were both clearly conservative premiers. They did not do the public service any favors. And both Prentice and Brian Jean were Conservative cabinet ministers under Harper, unless you want to try to back paddle and say that Harper isn't a Conservative either. Twisted pretzel logic.


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## Macfury

Why do you see antipathy to public employees as uniquely conservative? Bob Rae massacred the public service in Ontario while destroying the economy at the same time. 

Teachers are often an easy target because their pay scales are so out of whack with reality.

Harper is not much of a conservative--just the closest to a conservative currently available.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Why do you see antipathy to public employees as uniquely conservative? Bob Rae massacred the public service in Ontario while destroying the economy at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are often an easy target because their pay scales are so out of whack with reality.
> 
> 
> 
> Harper is not much of a conservative--just the closest to a conservative currently available.



You seem to prefer an ad hoc pull it out of your ass definition for the term "conservative" while all of the afore-mentioned individuals self-identified as conservative, as did their constituents. Perhaps it is you who does not understand the meaning of the word.


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## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> Again, ironic, since Ralph started politics as pretty clearly Liberal, and was only recruited by the PC party when they knew they needed a charismatic leader. And as long as "conservative" means "sticking it to the public service, particularly teachers" (Ralph himself left school in grade 9), then I suppose one could call him conservative. I'd be more inclined to call him opportunist.


I know very little about Ralph's politics prior to him becoming premier &, frankly, don't care. He could have been communist & it wouldn't have mattered. Most young adults start out left-leaning &, over time, migrate to the right. That's part of a natural process. Overall, he did this province good and in a conservative fashion. He was tough in lean times & less so otherwise. 

As to your comments about the public service, MF nailed it. 

And, despite all the so-called hardships, the public service is still significantly outperforming the private sector wage- & benefit-wise. Recall, this coming from a guy whose bride is a teacher. Was she ever 100% happy with all the decisions made by all Alberta politicians? Nope. Show me someone who is...

I'm not sure if your comment about his grade 9 education is a slight or not. Frankly, I'm far less impressed by diplomas & degrees than I am with personal character & integrity. The fact that he was able to run this province as long as he did on a grade 9 education says more about him than any piece of paper ever could.

And, what politician isn't an opportunist?



fjnmusic said:


> And both Prentice and Brian Jean were Conservative cabinet ministers under Harper, unless you want to try to back paddle and say that Harper isn't a Conservative either. Twisted pretzel logic.


They may have been. However, you yourself noted that Klein started out liberal & yet it's pretty obvious he conducted his premiereship as a conservative. So, apparently a leopard can change its spots.

As to your inclusion of Brian Jean, I don't undersand. Started on the right, still on the right.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> And both Prentice and Brian Jean were Conservative cabinet ministers under Harper,


Hmm, a teacher who does not know that Brian Jean was NEVER a cabinet minister under Harper? Ya don't say.


----------



## FeXL

Just because someone calls himself a genius does not make it so. He needs to illustrate that to someone other than the guy in the mirror.

Prentice's budget of all tax increases & no spending cuts in times of economic hardship proved without a doubt that he was nowhere near conservative land. More like "la-la" land. This coming from an Albertan, a "constituent".



fjnmusic said:


> You seem to prefer an ad hoc pull it out of your ass definition for the term "conservative" while all of the afore-mentioned individuals self-identified as conservative, as did their constituents.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Just because someone calls himself a genius does not make it so. He needs to illustrate that to someone other than the guy in the mirror.
> 
> 
> 
> Prentice's budget of all tax increases & no spending cuts in times of economic hardship proved without a doubt that he was nowhere near conservative land. More like "la-la" land. This coming from an Albertan, a "constituent".



And the funny thing is that Prentice also suggested every other Albertan should "look in the mirror" as well. Does that mean if all conservatives-in-name were to also look in the mirror, they might really see wanna-be liberal left-leaning spendthrifts? 

Wow, FeXL. That's the first thing you've proposed that I might actually agree with. Spend like drunken sailors—or maybe spend like drunken horse race gamblers. But anything but "Consevative" fiscally. 










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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Hmm, a teacher who does not know that Brian Jean was NEVER a cabinet minister under Harper? Ya don't say.



Excuse me, O wise one. Member of Parliament under Harper from 2004-2014.

"Jean was elected as a Conservative to the House of Commons of Canada for the riding of Athabasca in 2004. He was re-elected in the renamed riding of Fort McMurray—Athabasca in 2006 when the Harper Conservatives formed a minority government. In February 2006 he was appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. He was re-elected again in 2008 and again in 2011 and then declined reappointment as parliamentary secretary in order to focus more attention on his increasing constituency needs. He then served on the Finance, Justice, and Industry Committees.

On January 10, 2014, Jean announced that he would be resigning his seat on January 17, 2014 after a decade in parliament in order to return to private life in Fort McMurray.[5][6]"

From Wikipedia


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## Macfury

Uh, how does this make Jean a Cabinet Minister?



fjnmusic said:


> Excuse me, O wise one. Member of Parliament under Harper from 2004-2014.
> 
> "Jean was elected as a Conservative to the House of Commons of Canada for the riding of Athabasca in 2004. He was re-elected in the renamed riding of Fort McMurray—Athabasca in 2006 when the Harper Conservatives formed a minority government. In February 2006 he was appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. He was re-elected again in 2008 and again in 2011 and then declined reappointment as parliamentary secretary in order to focus more attention on his increasing constituency needs. He then served on the Finance, Justice, and Industry Committees.
> 
> On January 10, 2014, Jean announced that he would be resigning his seat on January 17, 2014 after a decade in parliament in order to return to private life in Fort McMurray.[5][6]"
> 
> From Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Uh, how does this make Jean a Cabinet Minister?



Are you daft? I just clarified that he was a Conservative MP, not a member of cabinet. Man, you're not happy even when you win. 


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## Macfury

Ah, I didn't understand the post, since we already new Jean was not a cabinet minister.

My apologies.



fjnmusic said:


> Are you daft? I just clarified that he was a Conservative MP, not a member of cabinet. Man, you're not happy even when you win.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Ah, I didn't understand the post, since we already new Jean was not a cabinet minister.
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies.



So now that's clear. And both Jean and Prentice were clearly going to be pawns for Emperor Harper this fall, in his plans for a second majority gov't (which is not a lot after nine years in power). If it weren't for those pesky NDP kids messing up the plan.....


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## Macfury

I don't think anyone expects a Conservative majority come the fall. Certainly few people expected Justin Trudeau to so spectacularly vacate what should have been an easy turn to reap anti-Harper votes.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> You seem to prefer an ad hoc pull it out of your ass definition for the term "conservative" while all of the afore-mentioned individuals self-identified as conservative, as did their constituents. Perhaps it is you who does not understand the meaning of the word.


No. Words have actual definitions. Neither Stelmach, nor Redford, nor Prentice fit the definition in any way. It's not our fault that YOU don't know what the word means. Klein reduced spending, eliminated the debt entirely, and kept taxes low, and he did it when oil was only $30 a barrel. The ones who came after him started creeping up taxes and service charges, spent money at a breakneck pace, and drove the province back into debt. They were not conservative.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> No. Words have actual definitions. Neither Stelmach, nor Redford, nor Prentice fit the definition in any way. It's not our fault that YOU don't know what the word means. Klein reduced spending, eliminated the debt entirely, and kept taxes low, and he did it when oil was only $30 a barrel. The ones who came after him started creeping up taxes and service charges, spent money at a breakneck pace, and drove the province back into debt. They were not conservative.


Exactly. A good way of looking at it is to see who considers government control a solution and who considers it a problem.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> No. Words have actual definitions. Neither Stelmach, nor Redford, nor Prentice fit the definition in any way. It's not our fault that YOU don't know what the word means. Klein reduced spending, eliminated the debt entirely, and kept taxes low, and he did it when oil was only $30 a barrel. The ones who came after him started creeping up taxes and service charges, spent money at a breakneck pace, and drove the province back into debt. They were not conservative.



And yet Klein was the one who was actually a member of the Liberal party of Canada at one time, until he was recruited to become an up and comer in Getty's gov't. Just goes to show how wrong you can be, Heavyall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Why are his previous errors being held against him? He governed as a conservative, so Heavyall is right.




fjnmusic said:


> And yet Klein was the one who was actually a member of the Liberal party of Canada at one time, until he was recruited to become an up and comer in Getty's gov't. Just goes to show how wrong you can be, Heavyall.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> And yet Klein was the one who was actually a member of the Liberal party of Canada at one time, until he was recruited to become an up and comer in Getty's gov't.


So?



fjnmusic said:


> Just goes to show how wrong you can be, Heavyall.


It shows nothing of the kind. Some LPC members are quite conservative. Some CPC members are very liberal. Stephen Harper was a Liberal at one time. So was I.


----------



## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> And the funny thing is that Prentice also suggested every other Albertan should "look in the mirror" as well.


Prentice's observation was asinine & merely confirmed his deeply rooted misconception that the state of the provincial economy was somehow the fault of the taxpayers. 

He rode that horse called Denial right into the ground & look where it got him. 



fjnmusic said:


> Does that mean if all conservatives-in-name were to also look in the mirror, they might really see wanna-be liberal left-leaning spendthrifts?


<sigh> Please...

Unfortunately, basic stupidity seems to run across all brands of politicians. Fortunately, this time, one was caught out & made to pay.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Prentice's observation was asinine & merely confirmed his deeply rooted misconception that the state of the provincial economy was somehow the fault of the taxpayers.


Worse, that they did not want him to cut profligate spending.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Worse, that they did not want him to cut profligate spending.



Profligate. Gotta use that more often.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I don't think anyone expects a Conservative majority come the fall. Certainly few people expected Justin Trudeau to so spectacularly vacate what should have been an easy turn to reap anti-Harper votes.


It is a bit early for that assumption. What I see happening is Trudeau and his party has adopted a traditional conservative stance in a number of policy areas ( targeted approach as opposed to universal ) . As for the N.D.P., they are talking economy, but I wonder about their policy costing accuracy. This leaves Mr. Harper, who is a shrewd politician. I would not think his party is done yet. Many conservatives I have talked to are voting for him so he can be replaced with a new leader from the party rather than a vote in. ( a ploy used by the N.D.P., sadly when Mr. Layton passed. ). We haven't seen the attack on the N.D.P. Yet be the Cons, but it is coming. The Libs, I feel, have self destructed and Mr. Trudeau, while not the direct cause, will wear the goat horns.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> It is a bit early for that assumption. What I see happening is Trudeau and his party has adopted a traditional conservative stance in a number of policy areas ( targeted approach as opposed to universal ) .


I don't see it as "adopting a conservative stance." Through my lens, Trudeau is a marginall harmful lefty who acquiesces to Harper on any policy issue he doesn't really value or understand.



Rps said:


> As for the N.D.P., they are talking economy, but I wonder about their policy costing accuracy.


I don't think costing enters into any of Mulcair's calculations. Recall his inability to quote Canada's corporate tax rate, after demanding it needed to go up. Bringing heavy manufacturing (code for high paying union jobs) back to Canada? That's a tough plan to fulfill. 



Rps said:


> This leaves Mr. Harper, who is a shrewd politician. I would not think his party is done yet. Many conservatives I have talked to are voting for him so he can be replaced with a new leader from the party rather than a vote in. ( a ploy used by the N.D.P., sadly when Mr. Layton passed. ). We haven't seen the attack on the N.D.P. Yet be the Cons, but it is coming. The Libs, I feel, have self destructed and Mr. Trudeau, while not the direct cause, will wear the goat horns.


I think that the teetering between deer-in-the-headlights Trudeau and an aggressive Mulcair has been the wild card here. The Conservatives haven't yet decided who needs to be smacked the hardest. Justin Trudeau has done most of the heavy lifting for the Conservatives in cheapening his own leadership coin, so my bet is that we'll see a hard attack on Mulcair approaching September.

But will the Conservatives simply be smacking a seesaw, or can they sink both of them simultaneously?


----------



## Rps

I think Teudeau is done, no confidence and no shadow cabinet, so I agree the target will be Mulcair, but let's see if he self destructs in his costing and do-ability of his party's policies. If his policies begin to make sense look out the Cons will be all over him.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed it truly is a cult of personality. Who are the party's other stars? There's room for nobody but Justin, who rules the party with a clumsy iron fist.

I'm not always sure costing means anything to most people, if they believe _other_ people's money will pay for the program.



Rps said:


> I think Teudeau is done, no confidence and no shadow cabinet, so I agree the target will be Mulcair, but let's see if he self destructs in his costing and do-ability of his party's policies. If his policies begin to make sense look out the Cons will be all over him.


----------



## fjnmusic

I hate to admit it, but I think I actually agree with both of you. Neither Trudeau nor Mulcair has what it takes yet to be prime minister, and Harper has become the least objectionable by comparison, though I do not like his culture of secrecy and his imperial manner. But it's a one on the right, two on the left scenario, and in this case, the math isn't that hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

I note that Mulcair continues to support the aspirations of Quebec separatists, just as Jack Layton did in the last election:

Mulcair Warns Against Quebec Sovereignty, But Revives Talk Of Sherbrooke Declaration

People may have reason to dislike Stephen Harper, but his party's platform doesn't crassly encourage the breakup of the country in exchange for votes.


----------



## screature

Been on holidays... still am. Based on what I have read that I missed, it seems it was a good thing. The last few posts were good though.


----------



## FeXL

From The Rebel, on Ontario electricity prices. The scary thing for me is how close behind Albertas' prices are...

Dr. Lee: "We're incentivizing companies to leave Ontario"



+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> From The Rebel, on Ontario electricity prices. The scary thing for me is how close behind Albertas' prices are...
> 
> Dr. Lee: "We're incentivizing companies to leave Ontario"
> 
> 
> 
> +
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4kR-PVzbY" title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4kR-PVzbY">
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4kR-PVzbY" />
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Not sure what your beef with privatization in Alberta is. My last gas bill was under $3 for the gas, which covered the gas I consumed and the cost of reading the meter. Another $34 was tacked in for the company that collects the bill. I mean any defender of corporate malfeasance should just love that. The electric bill was under $50 until they tacked in the $70 gouge fees.

Clearly Alberta is a shining example of how privatization benefits our corporate masters.

Pretty sure you must be absolutely enthralled with those new fees to pay for transmission lines to sell Alberta wind energy to BC, Idaho and Montana.


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## Macfury

You spend a lot of time worrying about your "corporate masters," eMacMan. Given a choice between squaring off against a government department or my "corporate masters" I would pick corporate every time.


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## Dr.G.

Water is a precious commodity, but B.C. is just giving it away - The Globe and Mail

Unreal .........................


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## fjnmusic

And this...those pesky voters. What to do?

http://syruptrap.ca/2015/07/harper-worried-that-election-might-be-influenced-by-voters/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Ouch! Is this the sad state of Canadian satire?



fjnmusic said:


> And this...those pesky voters. What to do?
> 
> Harper worried that election might be influenced by voters | The Syrup Trap
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Ouch! Is this the sad state of Canadian satire?



It would probably be funnier if it was more fictional.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Ouch! Is this the sad state of Canadian satire?


That one is pretty bad, satire needs to at least have a grain of truth to be funny. All this does is reinforce left-winger's talking points. It's propaganda, not satire.

That said, they do have some funny articles. Like this one:

BlackBerry announces that it still exists | The Syrup Trap


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## Macfury

The concept of the article is fine, bu the execution is weak. They want to be _The Onion_, but that publication actually understands the various media it satirizes.



heavyall said:


> That one is pretty bad, satire needs to at least have a grain of truth to be funny. All this does is reinforce left-winger's talking points. It's propaganda, not satire.
> 
> That said, they do have some funny articles. Like this one:
> 
> BlackBerry announces that it still exists | The Syrup Trap


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> It would probably be funnier if it was more fictional.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought this cute, and with the above quote now more ironic....

What is the difference between a Phd in Mathematics and a large pizza?
A pizza can feed a family of four.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Listen. IMO FATCA was designed to catch fat cats with millions or billions of dollars. I see no reason for small time potential tax evaders like you and others to be targeted under FATCA.


Great Lard! Are you really trying to convince me that you believe The Harper's talking points on the FATCA-IGA? I am way too old to buy even the tiniest portion of that load of 5#!7.

Had you read any thing at all about FATCA, other than the Harper talking points, you would know that almost all of the Americans living in Canada owe the IRS zero in taxes. You would also know that the FATCA-IGA has nothing to do with taxes. You would even know that many so-called Americans have never earned a dime in the US and have lived all or almost all of their lives in Canada. You might even know that FATCA is a double ended extortion scam, designed to collect huge fines from Canadian banks and steal lifetime savings from so-called "small-time" Americans living in Canada.

As to why FATCA is a threat to banks and small fry alike see this post:
http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1509.html#post1989641
It describes exactly how FATCA is designed to work and is working in parts of Europe, which have been longer under attack. Is it any wonder most European banks deny anyone with an American taint the necessity of bank accounts, investment accounts or mortgages.

Anyone with even the slightest of American ties should seriously consider contributing to the ongoing Constitutional Challenge. Fund raising is nearly complete so why not help put it over the top?
ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty

More info here:
The Isaac Brock Society | Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad
Maple Sandbox | A gathering place for people fighting FATCA, FBAR and US citizenship-based taxation

From the ADCS site:



> “I was born in the USA to Canadian parents. When I was a few days old, my parents brought me home to New Brunswick. I have been a Canadian police officer for 33 years. I have always voted Conservative, but can no longer support a party that will not afford me the same Charter rights that are extended to our most heinous criminals.” ~ Canadian Cop, Nova Scotia


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## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Had you read any thing at all about FATCA, other than the Harper talking points, you would know that almost all of the Americans living in Canada owe the IRS zero in taxes. You would also know that the FATCA-IGA has nothing to do with taxes. You would even know that many so-called Americans have never earned a dime in the US and have lived all or almost all of their lives in Canada. You might even know that FATCA is a double ended extortion scam, designed to collect huge fines from Canadian banks and steal lifetime savings from so-called "small-time" Americans living in Canada.


It's shocking to see how little money they're sniffing around for. It's mostly blackmail-- send us an extortionate amount of money because you lived in Ohio when you were 3, or give up your citizenship.


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## Rps

This should be fun, isn't there a Constitutional Challenge under way with this? If so, if the SCOC rules in favour of the group, Canada might have a banking problem. That said, aren't we talking about amounts greater than $50,000? Where I sit not many would qualify for reporting.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> This should be fun, isn't there a Constitutional Challenge under way with this? If so, if the SCOC rules in favour of the group, Canada might have a banking problem. That said, aren't we talking about amounts greater than $50,000? Where I sit not many would qualify for reporting.


The first round goes August 4th. This particular judge has tended to rule for Harper then had rulings overturned as they were based on politics rather than the evidence presented. So it is at least possible the Government will win round one.

As to the banks they will have a huge problem no matter the direction of the ruling. Reporting threshold for individuals is $10,000. Individuals are required to report things like RRSPs, RESPs, and Disabled Savings accounts, but there is no way on the F(u)BAR, 8938s and 3520s to make that distinction. The IRS looks at those forms then looks to see if the banks have also reported those accounts. Banks are not supposed to report those accounts but can expect to be blindsided because the IRS has no way of knowing those accounts do not need to be reported. The way the IRS does things is to levy the fine, threaten the bank with seizure of its US assets if it doesn't pay, ignore the banks attempts to explain, then tell the bank to pay the fine and try to recover it later. As I mentioned elsewhere the fine is $1,000,000/account. 

I have no idea whether the IRS will respect that $50,000 reporting minimum for banks. That is $50,000 for the combined total of the accounts someone has with that bank. Remember this was an agreement between Canada and the IRS. It was not drafted by Congress nor has it been ratified by Congress and/or Senate. The IRS has absolutely no obligation to respect that limit. Furthermore the IRS can change that limit at its own whim to whatever it likes. Yep the IRS can unilaterally change the agreement and Harper gave that his blessing as well.

BTW $50,000 is hardly a large amount of money for individuals nearing retirement age.

Sadly this will not really hit the fan until after the election, but I do what I can to let any one with American ties know of the Harper betrayal.


----------



## eMacMan

Another BTW.

Some of the most vulnerable are Vietnam era draft dodgers. They were informed in no uncertain terms that their US citizenship was forfeit when they became Canadian Citizens. They have spent all of their  working lives in Canada, paying taxes in Canada, believing the entire time they are exclusively Canadian, and are at or nearing retirement age. Meanwhile the US Government has re-instated their US citizenship (without informing them) thereby putting their life savings at extreme risk because they had absolutely no idea they were supposed to be filing 1040s, F(u)BARS, 8938s, 3520s...... for all of those years. Some have been able to get *retroactive* relinquishment. At the moment relinquishment is free but that can change. The current fee for renunciation is $2350 but renouncing could leave the individual vulnerable to F(u)BAR, other form violation fines, and exit tax, even though every penny the individual ever made was earned and taxed in Canada.

Edited to reflect what I was trying to say the first time around.

BTW That renunciation fee is almost four times the cost of a citizenship application.


----------



## Dr.G.

Once again, I filed my US taxes and while I had no taxes to pay in the US, I was hit with a $2 charge for my portion of Obamacare. Since I don't draw upon this medical plan, my $2 will help to pay down the US budget.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Once again, I filed my US taxes and while I had no taxes to pay in the US, I was hit with a $2 charge for my portion of Obamacare. Since I don't draw upon this medical plan, my $2 will help to pay down the US budget.


I think there is a form you can file to avoid that $2 fee but I am certain it has to be filed long before the June 15th deadline for filing taxes and the June 30th deadline for F(u)BARs.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I think there is a form you can file to avoid that $2 fee but I am certain it has to be filed long before the June 15th deadline for filing taxes and the June 30th deadline for F(u)BARs.


$2 US is nothing compared to the fee I had to pay my accountant.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Once again, I filed my US taxes and while I had no taxes to pay in the US, I was hit with a $2 charge for my portion of Obamacare. Since I don't draw upon this medical plan, my $2 will help to pay down the US budget.


Yep I filed those for 20 years and never owed a dime. It's the F(u)BARS that are generating the revenue for the IRS. Not to mention having all of your private banking data neatly tucked into an IRS electronic database. Even if it doesn't get hacked the IRS has promised to share it with just about anyone.

Anyone with even the slightest of American ties should seriously consider contributing to the ongoing Constitutional Challenge. Fund raising is nearly complete so why not help put it over the top?
ADCS | Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty

More info here:
The Isaac Brock Society | Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad
Maple Sandbox | A gathering place for people fighting FATCA, FBAR and US citizenship-based taxation


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> $2 US is nothing compared to the fee I had to pay my accountant.


I know an individual who had no idea he was an American citizen, born south of the border and lived in Canada since he was 2 weeks old. He's been self employed for nearly 50 years. The cross border vulture quoted him $25,000 to do the US side with no guarantees that the IRS would not try to take everything, as he had not been filing F(u)BARs, 8938s, 3520s.....

Probably would have owed very little in taxes but had he gone that route he would have been nailed for doubled down Social Security payments for the past several years. Probably not enough years to make him eligible to collect though.


----------



## CubaMark

*3 things to know about the UCCB payments' impact*

Conservative MPs were out Monday promoting this week's $3-billion lump-sum payments from the enhanced universal child-care benefit, which the government says will help families and stimulate the economy without negatively affecting the projected budget surplus.

We crunched some of the numbers to get a closer look at the impact of the increased UCCB payments.

* * *​
Those two factors leave $158.22 a year per child for that Ontario parent, or an additional $13.18 a month net.

The majority of Canadians live in provinces with higher marginal tax rates than Ontario, and would keep even less. People in British Columbia would keep a few cents more than their Ontario counterparts. Higher income earners will keep slightly less of the benefit, while people with low incomes will keep more.

Overall, Canadian parents should expect to keep less than one-third of the nominal amount of the UCCB, and in many cases less than a quarter.

* * *​
The Conservative government has billed the cheques as *a form of stimulus that will fire up consumer spending and confidence.*​
(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

Two things on the UCCB announcement:

1/ As I highlighted above, the Conservatives are causing this an *economic stimulus*. Funny, eh? They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into stimulus measures by the opposition parties a few years back. 

2/ When he appeared in Sydney, NS, to make the UCCB announcement, Pierre Pollievre decided to wear a Conservative Party-branded shirt for the occasion, in clear violation of Treasury Board rules (although the National Post claims otherwise in a short post that appears to split some hairs). Stay classy, Pierre.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Another BTW.
> 
> Some of the most vulnerable are Vietnam era draft dodgers. They were informed in no uncertain terms that their US citizenship was forfeit when they became Canadian Citizens. They have spent all of their working lives in Canada, paying taxes in Canada, believing the entire time they are exclusively Canadian, and are at or nearing retirement age. Meanwhile the US Government has re-instated their US citizenship (without informing them) thereby putting their life savings at extreme risk because they had absolutely no idea they were supposed to be filing 1040s, F(u)BARS, 8938s, 3520s...... for all of those years. Some have been able to get *retroactive* relinquishment. At the moment relinquishment is free but that can change. The current fee for renunciation is $2350 but renouncing could leave the individual vulnerable to F(u)BAR, other form violation fines, and exit tax, even though every penny the individual ever made was earned and taxed in Canada.
> 
> Edited to reflect what I was trying to say the first time around.
> 
> BTW That renunciation fee is almost four times the cost of a citizenship application.


It occurs to me that there is another small group of Canadians at extreme risk. At some point in their lives many seniors turn over fiscal authority to one of their kids. If that kid happens to live in the US, the bank account of the senior will reflect the US address and phone number of the individual with power of attorney. Making it mandatory for the bank or investment firm to pass that financial data along to the CRA who will then relay it to the IRS. Someone living in the US will almost certainly be unaware of the need to file F(u)BARS, 8938s and even 3520s on foreign accounts that (s)he manages. 

IOW, some Canadian senior citizens could lose their life savings at that point in life when needed most.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Two things on the UCCB announcement:
> 
> 1/ As I highlighted above, the Conservatives are causing this an *economic stimulus*. Funny, eh? They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into stimulus measures by the opposition parties a few years back.
> 
> 2/ When he appeared in Sydney, NS, to make the UCCB announcement, Pierre Pollievre decided to wear a Conservative Party-branded shirt for the occasion, in clear violation of Treasury Board rules (although the National Post claims otherwise in a short post that appears to split some hairs). Stay classy, Pierre.


The C in the shirt represented the Children and the Maple Leaf was for Canada, and the blue was for sea to sea to sea. So, this money is for Canadian children from sea to sea to sea ................ compliments of the taxpayers of Canada ......... and given sincerely by the Harper Government of Canada. With each retroactive check comes an autographed copy of a sock puppet, signed by Pierre Pollievre.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> The C in the shirt represented the Children and the Maple Leaf was for Canada, and the blue was for sea to sea to sea. So, this money is for Canadian children from sea to sea to sea ................ compliments of the taxpayers of Canada ......... and given sincerely by the Harper Government of Canada. With each retroactive check comes an autographed copy of a sock puppet, signed by Pierre Pollievre.


Thanks for setting me straight, Dr.G.! :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Thanks for setting me straight, Dr.G.! :lmao:


Well, someone had to point you in the "right" direction, CM.


----------



## CubaMark

*Gotta love the party of 'sound fiscal management'.... off by $2.7 Billion? That's some 'new math', eh?*

*Feds To Run $1B Deficit Based On Bank Of Canada Forecast: PBO*

The Bank of Canada's latest economic forecast puts the federal government on track to run a* $1-billion deficit* in 2015-16, says a new analysis released Wednesday by the parliamentary budget office.

The results of the calculations, based on the downgraded projection released last week by the central bank, also trim expected surpluses over the next two years.

The bleaker fiscal outlook has surfaced just as political parties are pitching economic policies to voters ahead of the October election.

In its April budget, *the Harper government predicteda string of surpluses, starting with $1.4 billion for this election year. The government forecasted surpluses of $1.7 billion in 2016-17 and $2.6 billion in 2017-18.*

But the budget office's number crunching projects Ottawa to produce a $1-billion shortfall in 2015-16 followed by smaller surpluses of $600 million and $2.2 billion over the next two years.​
(HuffPo)


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


>


 That bullet proof vest shore gives his lardship a bloated look.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Listen. IMO FATCA was designed to catch fat cats with millions or billions of dollars.


Again deliberate deception. FATCA was a last minute 500 page addition to the Hire Act. None of the Representatives or Senators voting for it had even read it. Furthermore the House and the Senate are home to many American Fat Cats, all of them owned by fatter cats. They know and you know that true Fat Cats do not simply open bank accounts in foreign countries to avoid taxes. This is done through nests and strings of shell corporations and the accounts typically reside in Delaware, Wyoming and Florida, not Canada. If FATCA posed the slightest risk to the Fat Cats, you can rest assured that Congress would have pulled the plug on FATCA long before now. Under no circumstance can I foresee any Fat Cat moving to Canada to avoid US taxes. Finally the information FATCA demands has no relation to taxes as they demand financial account numbers and balances and even transactions, not interest or dividends paid.
*
FATCAs main intent is to give the IRS stranglehold control over banks around the world. The Harper chose to give the IRS his blessing in that quest. He did so in a manner that violated the constitution by allowing the IRS to over ride bi-lateral and international treaties, Canadian privacy laws, Canadian banking regulations and the Canadian Charter of Rights. Doing so was a clear surrender of Canadian Sovereignty to the IRS. Applying it only to those tainted by any vague American association, is a clear violation of The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As a final insult to Canadians, he even chose Canada Day 2014 to make it effective.*

EDIT: As a final free bonus the FATCA-IGA gives The Harper stamp of approval to Canadian banks becoming agents for the IRS.

As to why FATCA is a threat to banks and small fry alike I again refer you to this post:
http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1509.html#post1989641


----------



## eMacMan

Sorry about the dupe, ehMac was a bit squirrely last night


----------



## CubaMark

*Man in blue suit thanks firefighters*









A firefighter stands behind the Prime Minister and Premier Christy Clark during a staged photo op in West Kelowna Thursday afternoon.
(ADAM PROSKIW /InfoTel Multimedia)​WEST KELOWNA – For a second straight day, firefighting efforts at the Westside Road fire were the backdrop for political photo ops.

Today, several federal politicians stood around waiting, occasionally wiping dirt from their clothing while sweaty, ash-covered, exhausted-looking firefighters surrounded them for the tightly controlled photo opportunity. Helicopters carrying empty buckets buzzed overhead and a steady stream of wildfire fighting aircraft circled prior to the event.

Handlers for the federal and provincial leaders promised reporters a chance to ask questions but B.C. Premier and local MLA Christy Clark answered only two, while the Prime Minister declined to answer all but one question. He made various statements about firefighting efforts, including a possible discussion sometime in the future about sharing in firefighting efforts.

Provinces fund their own firefighting. It’s not a federal responsibility.

After more than an hour wait, the press conference was over after less than five minutes. The Prime Minister would not take questions about why he was there, how much time the photo opportunity took from firefighters or what resources were used in the photo effort.​
(InfoNews)​


----------



## CubaMark

*BURNED! Media mocks Harper appearance at BC wildfire
Thompson Okanagan media takes Prime Minister Harper to the 
woodshed for disrupting firefighting efforts for photo-op.*

_Local media in B.C.'s Thompson Okanagan region scorched Stephen Harper on Thursday. As fire-fighters battling a wildfire near Kelowna were interrupted for a photo-op with the prime minister and Premier Christy Clark, Infonews.ca published a story under the headline "Man in blue suit thanks firefighters". 

Declining to cover the prime minister's appearance as a straightforward news story, reporter Adam Proskiw instead reported on the disruption caused to firefighters by political appearances. _​
(Vancouver Observer)


----------



## eMacMan

Hope no one lost their home because resources were diverted for the photo-op.


----------



## heavyall

Only a self-serving asshole would criticize the Prime Minister of any political stripe for showing up to an emergency area to show his support.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Only a self-serving asshole would criticize the Prime Minister of any political stripe for showing up to an emergency area to show his support.


Agreed. Only in the world of back-slapping leftist ninnies is this a big deal.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Only a self-serving asshole would criticize the Prime Minister of any political stripe for showing up to an emergency area to show his support.





Macfury said:


> Agreed. Only in the world of back-slapping leftist ninnies is this a big deal.


Obviously you've never had a major fire burning within a few hundred meters of your home. Diverting resources for a photo-op is a big deal.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Only a self-serving asshole would criticize the Prime Minister of any political stripe for showing up to an emergency area to show his support.


"...while sweaty, ash-covered, exhausted-looking firefighters surrounded them for the tightly controlled photo opportunity..."

And these guys? They don't deserve respect? 

If Harper wanted to "show his support" or whatever, let him borrow one of Peter MacKay's choppers for a flyover, à lá Bush and Katrina, making sure the press corps gets his 'good' side for the front page....


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> "...while sweaty, ash-covered, exhausted-looking firefighters surrounded them for the tightly controlled photo opportunity..."
> 
> And these guys? They don't deserve respect?


Yes, the blogger who wrote that quote is an asshole. So are you for continuing to post this bull****.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Yes, the blogger who wrote that quote is an asshole. So are you for continuing to post this bull****.


Doesn't show up at the fire: "Wahhhhhh! He doesn't care!"
Flies over the fire in a chopper: " Wahhhhhh! He's a coward and the chopper costs money!"
Arrive at the fire site: "Wahhhhh! He's in the way!"


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Yes, the blogger who wrote that quote is an asshole. So are you for continuing to post this bull****.


That's quite a strong emotional reaction you're having. Didn't realize you and Steve were so close...


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Yes, the blogger who wrote that quote is an asshole. So are you for continuing to post this bull****.


I bet you really appreciate not having moderators anymore, eh?


----------



## BigDL

Don't pick on the righteous...they never ever speak like that...it's all the posters that speak like that, that left's fault.

It's all your fault for bringing everyone's attention to the righteous acting righteously entitled.


----------



## eMacMan

Look if the idiot had taken half an hour and shook the hands and talked to firefighters coming off the line, no problem. If he had spent half an hour talking to people whose homes were at risk or had been lost, he would have gained some respect. 

But an out and out election photo-op at tax payer expense, which diverted needed water bombers from their runs merely re-inforces my rather low opinion of the man.

BTW I saw the short version of the tv coverage before I read the article and my initial reaction was that it was a blatant and carefully choreographed photo-op, alá Bush.


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> But an out and out election photo-op at tax payer expense, which diverted needed water bombers from their runs merely re-inforces my rather low opinion of the man.


Yes I agree, and driving in his car seeps valuable gas from the general public, being interviewed on TV takes away from my watching valuable sports programmes, creating policy diverts valuable paper from children's school books. Expressed another way, you don't like the guy and no matter what he does it will be wrong!


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Yes I agree, and driving in his car seeps valuable gas from the general public, being interviewed on TV takes away from my watching valuable sports programmes, creating policy diverts valuable paper from children's school books. Expressed another way, you don't like the guy and no matter what he does it will be wrong!


To be fair I feel the same way about the vast majority of politicians who have made it to the federal tier. Matters not whether they lie and deceive to promote right or left wing causes. But Harper does have the distinction of managing to make Chretien good in comparison, a very very difficult achievement.


----------



## Rps

Fair enough.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> To be fair I feel the same way about the vast majority of politicians who have made it to the federal tier. Matters not whether they lie and deceive to promote right or left wing causes. But Harper does have the distinction of managing to make Chretien good in comparison, a very very difficult achievement.





Rps said:


> Fair enough.


I disagree. Harper learned from Chretien and his politics of deceit. 

You reap what you sow. Harper is the first PM that has had to deal with Facebook and Twitter.

Considering the paradigm shift Harper has been a pussy cat compared to what would have happened under Chretien.

Remember this? I do:










That is Liberal Party for you following on the heels of PT.

There will be no change under Mulcair and his million dollar "satellite" offices and the same old gang *trying * to to regain under control under JT.

If anyone thinks they are actually voting for change by voting for the NDP or the Liberals they are sadly mistaken. The power of the bureaucracy is very forceful and change is very slow.

After almost a decade of being "in power" Harper is just beginning to break through the strangle hold that the bureaucracy has on the elected government.


----------



## Rps

Don't know about that, but if anyone thinks Harper is done I think they are sadly mistaken. My research is showing the country's move to a conservative nature, thus the reason the Libs have adopted prior Conservative views on distribution ( targeted vs universal ) , the the NDP moving more to the centre. I see three avenues here, one, Harper wins, two, Harper wins and steps down for a new leader, Three Harper loses, the Cons elect a new leader in a minority government and then win when the minority government falls 10 months later. Should be fun to watch.


----------



## eMacMan

Hmmm Chretien mugged a lone protester.

Harper threw Canadian Veterans in the path of The Harper bus.

Harper mugged a million or so Americans via the IRS and Bill C31-Sec5. Of course one has to add in spouses, business partners and so on, making that more realistically 2 or 3 Million under the Harper Omnibus. 

Then for good measure he mugged every Canadian with dual citizenship via Bill C-24.

Anyone otherwise not under a Harper Bus he got with Bill C/13/30/... The Internet ant-privacy bill. Then to wrap it all up there was Bill C-51.

Of course we could compare Ad Scam to the Action Canada ads, but Action Canada has Ad Scam hammered by a couple of orders of magnitude. 

Like I said making Chretien look good was an almost impossible task but The Harper was more than up for the challenge and succeeded in a rather spectacular manner.


----------



## CubaMark

Rps, I'm absolutely in agreement. Canada's willingness to continue to elect Harper's Conservatives to power doesn't appear to be done by a long shot. I take all of the "Mulcair and NDP in the lead!" news articles with a big block of cow-salt-licks. I think it's time for the NDP to take Federal power, even if to just shake up the institutions and break some of the longstanding privileges held by the two parties of historical governance. 

You know, I would have less of a beef with Canada moving to the Right if it were a Right worth moving to. But the "Right" that we appear to be embracing is far too U.S. Tea Party / evangelical Christian / Guns, God and Glory! for my tastes.

The Progressive Conservatives, in my view, had misguided fiscal policies, but at least they still had a heart and a respect for the things that make this country Canada. The Conservatives appear to follow far too closely to the worst elements of our neighbours to the South.

I guess it's to be expected... our proximity and shared language, and ever-increasing consumption of U.S. media, combine to "americanize" our own culture. We know far more about U.S. politics than we do our own (and we really don't care that it is so). 

I would not be at all surprised if Harper wins at least a minority in the Fall. But not because he or the party deserve it. It's more a reflection of an apathetic Canadian voting public who are content to cast a vote every four years or so without giving any critical thought to what that means, nor willing to engage politically at any level to contribute to Canada's political character.


----------



## CubaMark

_*For those who continue to rail against the Left as big spenders....*_

*Want to cut public debt? Bring in the leftists*

In Greece, it took a very left-wing government to cut public spending, slash the size of the public service and reduce a government debt load that had begun to rise fast under conservatives a decade earlier. ....

In France, it has taken a Socialist Party government to break open a paralyzed and overregulated economy in an effort to bring back growth and fiscal order. Prime Minister Manuel Valls, after an economically disappointing start, instructed Economy Minister Emmanuel Macron, a former Wall Street banker, last year to redesign the economy. This month, after tortured debate, parliament passed the 400-article “Macron Bill,” which deregulates many sectors, allows competition, cuts public spending and even introduces Sunday shopping – things that two decades of mainly conservative governments were unable to touch.

In the United States, it has taken a Democratic president to get the fiscal house in order. After George W. Bush’s lofty spending and lavish tax cuts sent public debt soaring (even before the 2008 crisis), under Barack Obama the size of the debt began to fall in 2013 – in large part because under his watch government spending has risen by only 1.4 per cent (in part because new programs such as Obamacare cost taxpayers less), compared with an 8.1-per-cent increase under Mr. Bush and 8.7 per cent in Ronald Reagan’s first term.

We have entered the age of the austerity left.​
(Globe & Mail)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> _*For those who continue to rail against the Left as big spenders....*_
> 
> *Want to cut public debt? Bring in the leftists*In Greece, it took a very left-wing government to cut public spending, slash the size of the public service and reduce a government debt load that had begun to rise fast under conservatives a decade earlier. ....
> 
> In France, it has taken a Socialist Party government to break open a paralyzed and overregulated economy in an effort to bring back growth and fiscal order. Prime Minister Manuel Valls, after an economically disappointing start, instructed Economy Minister Emmanuel Macron, a former Wall Street banker, last year to redesign the economy. This month, after tortured debate, parliament passed the 400-article “Macron Bill,” which deregulates many sectors, allows competition, cuts public spending and even introduces Sunday shopping – things that two decades of mainly conservative governments were unable to touch.
> 
> In the United States, it has taken a Democratic president to get the fiscal house in order. After George W. Bush’s lofty spending and lavish tax cuts sent public debt soaring (even before the 2008 crisis), under Barack Obama the size of the debt began to fall in 2013 – in large part because under his watch government spending has risen by only 1.4 per cent (in part because new programs such as Obamacare cost taxpayers less), compared with an 8.1-per-cent increase under Mr. Bush and 8.7 per cent in Ronald Reagan’s first term.
> 
> We have entered the age of the austerity left.​(Globe & Mail)


Bear in mind that the Greek debt load was considerably less than Canada's and a whole lot less than the US. Best guess is the Banksters chose to mug Greece so that various Oligarch buds could buy up Greek Islands for 10¢ on the Dollar. Wonder what they may be coveting in Canada, maybe our water???


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Don't know about that, but if anyone thinks Harper is done I think they are sadly mistaken. My research is showing the country's move to a conservative nature, thus the reason the Libs have adopted prior Conservative views on distribution ( targeted vs universal ) , the the NDP moving more to the centre. I see three avenues here, one, Harper wins, two, Harper wins and steps down for a new leader, Three Harper loses, the Cons elect a new leader in a minority government and then win when the minority government falls 10 months later. Should be fun to watch.


Great post. 

Possibility 4. The Cons win a minority Government and Harper still steps down and then there is a leadership race, a new leader is throned, the informal coalition (Libs and NDP) present a non-confidence motion on the budget or not, they win because they have the numbers collectively and then we have another election.


----------



## Macfury

Bring in a leftist... and have him beat about the head and neck by Angela Merkel.



CubaMark said:


> _*For those who continue to rail against the Left as big spenders....*_
> 
> *Want to cut public debt? Bring in the leftists*
> 
> In Greece, it took a very left-wing government to cut public spending, slash the size of the public service and reduce a government debt load that had begun to rise fast under conservatives a decade earlier. ....
> 
> In France, it has taken a Socialist Party government to break open a paralyzed and overregulated economy in an effort to bring back growth and fiscal order. Prime Minister Manuel Valls, after an economically disappointing start, instructed Economy Minister Emmanuel Macron, a former Wall Street banker, last year to redesign the economy. This month, after tortured debate, parliament passed the 400-article “Macron Bill,” which deregulates many sectors, allows competition, cuts public spending and even introduces Sunday shopping – things that two decades of mainly conservative governments were unable to touch.
> 
> In the United States, it has taken a Democratic president to get the fiscal house in order. After George W. Bush’s lofty spending and lavish tax cuts sent public debt soaring (even before the 2008 crisis), under Barack Obama the size of the debt began to fall in 2013 – in large part because under his watch government spending has risen by only 1.4 per cent (in part because new programs such as Obamacare cost taxpayers less), compared with an 8.1-per-cent increase under Mr. Bush and 8.7 per cent in Ronald Reagan’s first term.
> 
> We have entered the age of the austerity left.​
> (Globe & Mail)


----------



## Dr.G.

The fates are working in Mulcair's favour - The Globe and Mail

An interesting perspective which is sure to raise the ire of some here in this thread. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Why would it raise anyone's ire? The writer is an avowed leftist living out his wet dream in public.


----------



## Rps

Screature that is a possibility, but it depends on the seat spread. I think the NDP would try to form based on a Liberal coalition. We do not elect governments but parliaments. The GG might go in favour of a coalition. But, maybe the NDP would back the Cons.....fun, fun, fun.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Hmmm Chretien mugged a lone protester.
> 
> Harper threw Canadian Veterans in the path of The Harper bus.
> 
> Harper mugged a million or so Americans via the IRS and Bill C31-Sec5. Of course one has to add in spouses, business partners and so on, making that more realistically 2 or 3 Million under the Harper Omnibus.
> 
> Then for good measure he mugged every Canadian with dual citizenship via Bill C-24.
> 
> Anyone otherwise not under a Harper Bus he got with Bill C/13/30/... The Internet ant-privacy bill. Then to wrap it all up there was Bill C-51.
> 
> Of course we could compare Ad Scam to the Action Canada ads, but Action Canada has Ad Scam hammered by a couple of orders of magnitude.
> 
> Like I said making Chretien look good was an almost impossible task but The Harper was more than up for the challenge and succeeded in a rather spectacular manner.



Don't forget the Universal Child Care Benefit boondoggle, which has the average Canadian family both receiving benefits and having them clawed back drastically St the same time. Just got our "benefit" cheque in the mail. What is the benefit of cashing it versus not cashing it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Don't forget the Universal Child Care Benefit boondoggle, which has the average Canadian family both receiving benefits and having them clawed back drastically St the same time. Just got our "benefit" cheque in the mail. What is the benefit of cashing it versus not cashing it?


You might want to mention the 'clawback' as you call it is income tax and the majority of the benefit remains in your pocket.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> You might want to mention the 'clawback' as you call it is income tax and the majority of the benefit remains in your pocket.


The Conservatives have hardly been promoters of income tax now, have they?


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> You might want to mention the 'clawback' as you call it is income tax and the majority of the benefit remains in your pocket.


Sinc, are we the only ones who remember the Baby Bonus?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Sinc, are we the only ones who remember the Baby Bonus?


I remember hearing about it when I was a wee lad.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> You might want to mention the 'clawback' as you call it is income tax and the majority of the benefit remains in your pocket.





Rps said:


> Sinc, are we the only ones who remember the Baby Bonus?


I remember when baby bonus was AKA pecker pay. I remember that the monthly allotment as a teenager paid for a new pair of Levis Jean.

I remember the sizable deduction off of income tax as a dependent.

The present government is clawing back the Universal Child Benefit by the trickery of upping the rate and providing retroactive pay before the election and removal of the tax credit becomes apparent well after the election. Not Right Honourable of Prime Minister OGL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster.)


----------



## Dr.G.

I'm Canadian – and I have a right to vote - The Globe and Mail

Good for him. :clap:

Interesting. Even though I have not lived in the State of Georgia for 38 years, I am still able to vote there ............ be it for county sheriff or the US president.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> I remember when baby bonus was AKA pecker pay. I remember that the monthly allotment as a teenager paid for a new pair of Levis Jean.
> 
> I remember the sizable deduction off of income tax as a dependent.
> 
> The present government is clawing back the Universal Child Benefit by the trickery of upping the rate and providing retroactive pay before the election and removal of the tax credit becomes apparent well after the election. Not Right Honourable of Prime Minister OGL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster.)


If you have nothing better to do than run offensive signatures, why bother repeating insults in the post?

I guess when you as are offensive to the office of the PM as you are, you don't realize you are also offensive to all Canadians. tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I'm Canadian – and I have a right to vote - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Good for him. :clap:
> 
> Interesting. Even though I have not lived in the State of Georgia for 38 years, I am still able to vote there ............ be it for county sheriff or the US president.


No, he doesn't have the right--the Ontario court upheld the law upheld the ban for people who have been absent more than 5 years. In New Zealand it is 3.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> If you have nothing better to do than run offensive signatures, why bother repeating insults in the post?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess when you as are offensive to the office of the PM as you are, you don't realize you are also offensive to all Canadians. tptptptp



Not all. Not by a long shot. A vast majority of us Canadians are not fans of Harper at all and never were. His approval rating is the lowest it has ever been.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Not all. Not by a long shot. A vast majority of us Canadians are not fans of Harper at all and never were. His approval rating is the lowest it has ever been.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just don't get it do you Frank?

I maintain pissing on the OFFICE of the PM by name calling is offensive, ie War Monger PM. Anyone with any pride in being Canadian never does such a thing. Don't like the man, say so, but leave the office out of it. Sigh.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> No, he doesn't have the right--the Ontario court upheld the law upheld the ban for people who have been absent more than 5 years. In New Zealand it is 3.


It will be interesting to see if this goes to the Canadian Supreme Court, and how they rule on this lower court decision.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> No, he doesn't have the right--the Ontario court upheld the law upheld the ban for people who have been absent more than 5 years. In New Zealand it is 3.


When I first read of the Ontario court's decision, I thought that they were incorrect in their interpretation. Still, I thought that in what constituency would he, or anyone else, vote? Might it be in his last mailing address in Canada, or does he have a permanent residency in Canada?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> You just don't get it do you Frank?
> 
> I maintain pissing on the OFFICE of the PM by name calling is offensive, ie War Monger PM. Anyone with any pride in being Canadian never does such a thing. Don't like the man, say so, but leave the office out of it. Sigh.


What are you on, about now? 

When did you *ever* vote for Stephen Harper? 

Our PM is just one 308 (soon to be one 338) members of Parliament, the Prime Minister of Canada is not special, as is being suggested. Learn some basic civics please. 

The value of free speech is in its expression. 

Where were *you* when a member was calling another member, in this very thread, an "asshole?" Where was your indignation then, my friend?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> When I first read of the Ontario court's decision, I thought that they were incorrect in their interpretation. Still, I thought that in what constituency would he, or anyone else, vote? Might it be in his last mailing address in Canada, or does he have a permanent residency in Canada?


It's not clear to me. If you had one house I suppose it would be there, but what if you owned no property?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It's not clear to me. If you had one house I suppose it would be there, but what if you owned no property?


True, which is why I find it strange that I am able to vote in Georgia using the address of the apartment I lived in for three full years.

Still, I am looking forward to voting here in Nova Scotia for the first time after all those years voting in NL.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It's not clear to me. If you had one house I suppose it would be there, but what if you owned no property?


In Sutherland's case, he does own property - the family home, where - as he notes in his letter - he and his wife spend as much time as possible, given their work commitments.

_In 1978, that’s nearly 40 years ago, the Canadian government made me an Officer of the Order of Canada. The Governor-General gave me the Governor-General’s Award a while back. I am on your Walk of Fame in Toronto. My sense of humour is Canadian. But I can’t vote.

Did you know that? If you don’t live here all the time you can’t vote. Americans who live abroad can vote. They can vote because they’re citizens! Citizens! But I can’t. Because why? Because I’m not a citizen? Because what happens to Canada doesn’t matter to me?_​


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> You just don't get it do you Frank?
> 
> 
> 
> I maintain pissing on the OFFICE of the PM by name calling is offensive, ie War Monger PM. Anyone with any pride in being Canadian never does such a thing. Don't like the man, say so, but leave the office out of it. Sigh.



Respect is something that must be earned, no matter what one's political leanings are. I had more respect for Harper when he had Rick Mercer over for a sleepover (even though it probably sullied the "office" of the PM in your eyes) but he has proven himself time and again to be pretty much just an asshole. Respecting the badge is kind of like giving the cop who pulled Sandra Bland over respect just because he's an officer. This PM deserves about as much respect as his old buddy Jim Prentice (aka Jim who? In these parts). I believe the office of Prime Minister is a highly respected job that Stephen Harper has denigrated all by himself through his misuse of power.

And as for freedom of speech? Yeah, I still believe in that too, Don.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Right, but if you had NO residence or Canadian address, where would you vote?



CubaMark said:


> In Sutherland's case, he does own property - the family home, where - as he notes in his letter - he and his wife spend as much time as possible, given their work commitments.
> 
> _In 1978, that’s nearly 40 years ago, the Canadian government made me an Officer of the Order of Canada. The Governor-General gave me the Governor-General’s Award a while back. I am on your Walk of Fame in Toronto. My sense of humour is Canadian. But I can’t vote.
> 
> Did you know that? If you don’t live here all the time you can’t vote. Americans who live abroad can vote. They can vote because they’re citizens! Citizens! But I can’t. Because why? Because I’m not a citizen? Because what happens to Canada doesn’t matter to me?_​


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Right, but if you had NO residence or Canadian address, where would you vote?


I've asked myself that question. I'm now barred from voting in the next Federal Election - I've been in Mexico too (damn) long. I have a mailing address back in Nova Scotia, but I own no property. That would represent a challenge. How did it work prior to this rule change?


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> I've asked myself that question. I'm now barred from voting in the next Federal Election - I've been in Mexico too (damn) long. I have a mailing address back in Nova Scotia, but I own no property. That would represent a challenge. How did it work prior to this rule change?



You and Donald Sutherland. No respect, man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

Well, I firmly believe you need to generally live in a country to vote there. A vote means the action has consequences.....to me it would be similar to randomly vote for the U.S. President simply because I visited a state on an ongoing basis. Said another way, you decide what colour a neighbour should paint their home.....you aren't buying the paint, nor are you painting it.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Where were *you* when a member was calling another member, in this very thread, an "asshole?" Where was your indignation then, my friend?


I save it all for YOUR signature, an insult to all. And I am far from being any friend of yours.


----------



## eMacMan

Curiosity only Don.

Back when the elder Trudeau was Prime Minister, Albertans more often than not referred to him as Pierre Idiot Trudeau. When Nixon referred to him as; "That Asshole Trudeau", more than a few Western Canadians saw it as calling a spade a spade. 

Were you as up in arms back then about such failures to respect the office of PM?


----------



## SINC

No not at all, call the man whatever you want, but do it once and drop it. Rubbing it in the faces of all in a sig is quite another issue and speaks to the character of the member, more than the PM.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> No not at all, call the man whatever you want, but do it once and drop it. Rubbing it in the faces of all in a sig is quite another issue and speaks to the character of the member, more than the PM.


Fair enough. Very few recent PMs have lived up to their title. The exception would be Joe Clark. The only living PM I would like to meet.


----------



## SINC

I only ever met two PMs, Diefenbaker and Clark, both fine men.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I save it all for YOUR signature, an insult to all. And I am far from being any friend of yours.


It seem every war is an event Stephen Harper promotes or wants to be actively involved with.

War of 1812 check
Invasion by the willing (at the behest of the Shrub) check
War in Afghanistan check
Iraq conflict (chose to bomb even in Saria and training) check

So what do *you* call someone who promotes and/or advocates for war? Who conducted the poll that included *everyone*?


----------



## SINC

I call him the PM. Parliament agreed with him BTW. 

You might want to brush up on your history. Harper was not alive during the war of 1812.


----------



## eMacMan

The rationale behind not allowing Canadians to vote from outside the country no longer applies. Even 20 years ago someone living in Montana could have a great deal of difficulty following Candidates and issues. In the internet era this is no longer a problem.

Someone who is disinterested in what is happening back home in will probably be completely unaware that there is an election in progress.

Someone who is interested can be every bit as well informed as those living here. Their citizenship should not be cheapened by denying them the right to vote.

I don't see the Harper doing anything to fix this, as anyone living outside of the country may well be, or be eligible to be a dual citizen. They would hardly be supportive of the man who cheapened their Canadian Citizenship via Bill C-24.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I call him the PM. Parliament agreed with him BTW.
> 
> You might want to brush up on your history. Harper was not alive during the war of 1812.


He spent like a drunken sailor to glorify and promote the "Glory War of 1812."

So what's your definition of War Monger?


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Only a self-serving asshole would criticize the Prime Minister of any political stripe for showing up to an emergency area to show his support.





heavyall said:


> Yes, the blogger who wrote that quote is an asshole. So are you for continuing to post this bull****.


So you now approve of disrespecting long time members here, or is it, if that member disrespects your approved Prime Minister? 

Where's your outrage at one member directly calling another member of Ehmac an asshole?


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> He spent like a drunken sailor to glorify and promote the "Glory War of 1812."


Only to surrender Canadian Sovereignty to the IRS, signing the FATCA-IGA, without so much as a whimper of protest.


----------



## Macfury

I remember about $28 million spent on War of 1812 commemorations over three years. Chretien spent that on golf balls.


----------



## Rps

In the absence of a moderator, maybe a little humour is in order.


.....An elderly man suffered a massive heart attack. The family drove wildly to get him to the emergency room..... 

...After what seemed like a very long wait, the ER Doctor appeared, wearing his scrubs and a long face. Sadly, he said,

"I'm afraid he is brain-dead, but his heart is still beating." 

...."Oh, Dear God," cried his wife, her hands clasped against her cheeks with shock!...

... "We've never had a [politician] in the family before!"...


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I remember about $28 million spent on War of 1812 commemorations over three years. Chretien spent that on golf balls.


Apparently some people have a problem differentiating between recognizing history and participating in a war, do ya think?


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> Where's your outrage at one member directly calling another member of Ehmac an asshole?


First off, pulease. How many times have you stood mute on the sidelines?

Second, does the shoe fit?


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> Don't pick on the righteous...they never ever speak like that...it's all the posters that speak like that, that left's fault.
> 
> It's all your fault for bringing everyone's attention to the righteous acting righteously entitled.





FeXL said:


> First off, pulease. How many times have you stood mute on the sidelines?
> 
> Second, does the shoe fit?


My outrage was in the form of sarcasm. Mocking people like say you, heavyall and SINC, et al for your inane or foolish posting.

You, heavyall, SINC, et al are hypocrites. Howling over some perceived slight, claiming respect must be shown to you. However when it suits, acting in the contrary manner, to bray your anger, without any filters, upon others, with whom you disagree.

I've been a member here for over 12 years and I post here 1.29 times a day (on average just verified) over that time. Many times I don't (intensionally) see the puss from chronic offenders.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> In the absence of a moderator, maybe a little humour is in order.
> 
> 
> .....An elderly man suffered a massive heart attack. The family drove wildly to get him to the emergency room.....
> 
> ...After what seemed like a very long wait, the ER Doctor appeared, wearing his scrubs and a long face. Sadly, he said,
> 
> "I'm afraid he is brain-dead, but his heart is still beating."
> 
> ...."Oh, Dear God," cried his wife, her hands clasped against her cheeks with shock!...
> 
> ... "We've never had a [politician] in the family before!"...


:clap::clap::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Would be even funnier if it did not hit the nail so squarely on the head!


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> My outrage was in the form of sarcasm. Mocking people like say you, heavyall and SINC, et al for your inane or foolish posting.


Then perhaps a /sarc tag would be appropriate. It fell quite flat... 

And, of course, no one else on these boards has ever posted anything foolish besides us three. I could link you to one single abandoned user account whose owner posted more inanity & foolishness in one day than another dozen accounts of your choosing in a month.



BigDL said:


> You, heavyall, SINC, et al are hypocrites. Howling over some perceived slight, claiming respect must be shown to you.


Where have I done so? Quotes, please. 

Where I grew up, respect was earned, not dished out because of some titular demand.



BigDL said:


> However when it suits, acting in the contrary manner, to bray your anger, without any filters, upon others, with whom you disagree.


I have called a very select few people names on these boards. No argument. However, it had nothing to do with my disagreement with them, but because they conducted themselves in a manner befitting the name I called them. They earned it every time.



BigDL said:


> I've been a member here for over 12 years and I post here 1.29 times a day (on average just verified) over that time. Many times I don't (intensionally) see the puss from chronic offenders.


Well, saaaalute! 

Curiously, most of the chronic offenders have long since left & now post their puss elsewhere. The price of real estate in this neighbourhood went up every time one of them left...


----------



## CubaMark

Ummm.... hey, guys? This is the *Canadian Political Thread*, remember? Can't somebody just create one big bitching thread where people can go at one another and keep it out of the discussions?

Jeez.


----------



## CubaMark

*Federal Election 2015: Writ May Drop As Early As Sunday, Sources Say*

Prime Minister Stephen Harper may request a federal election call *as early as Sunday, Aug. 2.*

Sources tell The Huffington Post Canada that the Conservative Party is planning a rally in Montreal Sunday evening — a natural stopover for Harper after taking a stroll to the Governor General’s residence in Ottawa and asking for Parliament to be dissolved.

The rally will be held in the riding of Mount Royal where the Tories are hoping to pick up a seat from the Liberals after popular MP Irwin Cotler announced he will not be running again.

The Conservative government wants to conclude Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) talks in Hawaii before heading off on the campaign trail. It is still possible the election call will be postponed if a TPP deal isn’t reached by Friday, a source said.​
(HuffPo)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Federal Election 2015: Writ May Drop As Early As Sunday, Sources Say*
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper may request a federal election call *as early as Sunday, Aug. 2.*
> 
> Sources tell The Huffington Post Canada that the Conservative Party is planning a rally in Montreal Sunday evening — a natural stopover for Harper after taking a stroll to the Governor General’s residence in Ottawa and asking for Parliament to be dissolved.
> 
> The rally will be held in the riding of Mount Royal where the Tories are hoping to pick up a seat from the Liberals after popular MP Irwin Cotler announced he will not be running again.
> 
> The Conservative government wants to conclude Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) talks in Hawaii before heading off on the campaign trail. It is still possible the election call will be postponed if a TPP deal isn’t reached by Friday, a source said.​
> (HuffPo)


I had better check into where we register to vote here in Lunenburg, NS ............. and then where we go to vote. Looking forward to it.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I had better check into where we register to vote here in Lunenburg, NS ............. and then where we go to vote. Looking forward to it.


Just wait for the robo-calls, which will tell where the polling station is not located. After three or four of those you should have it pretty well narrowed down.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Just wait for the robo-calls, which will tell where the polling station is not located. After three or four of those you should have it pretty well narrowed down.


Checked with my neighbor ........... we vote about four blocks from where I live. So, let them call.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Checked with my neighbor ........... we vote about four blocks from where I live. So, let them call.


I believe your polling station is on Little Island.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> I had better check into where we register to vote here in Lunenburg, NS ............. and then where we go to vote. Looking forward to it.


You may have registered to vote upon filing your income tax if indicated your desire to be on the permanent vote registry.

You may check online HERE


----------



## CubaMark

*Stay classy, Stephen.*

*Stephen Harper to skip ‘red Tory’ Flora MacDonald’s funeral*










Prime Minister Stephen Harper will not attend the funeral of former external affairs minister Flora MacDonald, a pioneering political figure credited with leading the advance of women in modern Canadian conservative politics.

Harper hasn’t offered MacDonald’s family a state funeral, a special privilege he extended to former finance minister Jim Flaherty’s family when Flaherty died suddenly of a heart attack last year.

Instead, Status of Women Minister Kellie Leitch will represent the government at the service on Sunday — the day, according to a CBC report circulating Wednesday, that Harper will ask the governor general to dissolve parliament and kick off the federal election campaign.

MacDonald’s death last weekend in Ottawa at age 89 prompted an outpouring of plaudits for a long career that saw her become the first woman to run for the leadership of Progressive Conservatives and the first female foreign minister in the developed world.

But the only recognition from Harper’s office came when it sent out a curt tweet that incorrectly spelled her surname with a lower-case “d,” to the annoyance of her family.

“Condolences to the family of Flora Macdonald, who served her country at home and abroad,” the PMO said on Harper’s behalf.

Liberal leader Justin Trudeau and NDP leader Tom Mulcair were more effusive.

“Deeply saddened by the passing of Flora MacDonald, a great Canadian whose leadership and compassion will be sorely missed,” Trudeau tweeted.

Mulcair’s message said, “Flora MacDonald will be dearly missed. Her leadership blazed a trail in Canada & her humanitarian work improved lives around the world. —TM”​
(Ottawa Citizen)


----------



## Macfury

You can't attend everyone's funeral, folks. Her work in the World Federalist Movement probably got Mulcair's juices flowing.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> You can't attend everyone's funeral, folks.


Naturally, I wouldn't expect Harper to attend mine, or even yours, MF.

My politics were not MacDonald's - but there is no denying her place in Canadian political history. 

Not attending the funeral is an intentional snub to her legacy. And that begrudging tweet from Harper's Twitter account? Pure, unadulterated, crass, pettiness. 

This is how Harper denigrates the office of the Prime Minister of Canada.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Naturally, I wouldn't expect Harper to attend mine, or even yours, MF.
> 
> My politics were not MacDonald's - but there is no denying her place in Canadian political history.
> 
> Not attending the funeral is an intentional snub to her legacy. And that begrudging tweet from Harper's Twitter account? Pure, unadulterated, crass, pettiness.
> 
> This is how Harper denigrates the office of the Prime Minister of Canada.


Any respect I have for a politician is somewhat grudging. That said I believe Mrs. MacDonald earned a great deal more respect than the PM has shown her.

OTOH Maybe it's just that funerals last longer than the 5 minutes the PM is willing to give to a photo-op.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I believe your polling station is on Little Island.


Nope ........... the fire hall just down the road.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> You may have registered to vote upon filing your income tax if indicated your desire to be on the permanent vote registry.
> 
> You may check online HERE


Thanks for this info, Dana. Merci, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Stay classy, Stephen.*
> 
> *Stephen Harper to skip ‘red Tory’ Flora MacDonald’s funeral*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper will not attend the funeral of former external affairs minister Flora MacDonald, a pioneering political figure credited with leading the advance of women in modern Canadian conservative politics.
> 
> Harper hasn’t offered MacDonald’s family a state funeral, a special privilege he extended to former finance minister Jim Flaherty’s family when Flaherty died suddenly of a heart attack last year.
> 
> Instead, Status of Women Minister Kellie Leitch will represent the government at the service on Sunday — the day, according to a CBC report circulating Wednesday, that Harper will ask the governor general to dissolve parliament and kick off the federal election campaign.
> 
> MacDonald’s death last weekend in Ottawa at age 89 prompted an outpouring of plaudits for a long career that saw her become the first woman to run for the leadership of Progressive Conservatives and the first female foreign minister in the developed world.
> 
> But the only recognition from Harper’s office came when it sent out a curt tweet that incorrectly spelled her surname with a lower-case “d,” to the annoyance of her family.
> 
> “Condolences to the family of Flora Macdonald, who served her country at home and abroad,” the PMO said on Harper’s behalf.
> 
> Liberal leader Justin Trudeau and NDP leader Tom Mulcair were more effusive.
> 
> “Deeply saddened by the passing of Flora MacDonald, a great Canadian whose leadership and compassion will be sorely missed,” Trudeau tweeted.
> 
> Mulcair’s message said, “Flora MacDonald will be dearly missed. Her leadership blazed a trail in Canada & her humanitarian work improved lives around the world. —TM”​
> (Ottawa Citizen)


Sad. She was a fine person, and maintained her social conscience even after she left political life.


----------



## Rps

All politics aside, if this is true that he will not attend it is a shame, and, yes, classless would be an appropriate description for Mr. Harper.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> All politics aside, if this is true that he will not attend it is a shame, and, yes, classless would be an appropriate description for Mr. Harper.


Agreed, Rp. There is no reason not to attend the funeral of such a high profile former Conservative cabinet minister who once ran for the office of PM. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Agreed, Rp. There is no reason not to attend the funeral of such a high profile former Conservative cabinet minister who once ran for the office of PM. Paix, mon ami.


Maybe we're being a bit hard on the PM. There was no love to be lost between the two of them. Perhaps she left very specific directions that the PM was not to attend her funeral? 

The PM would certainly not want to make that public especially during an election run. Pretty sure the family would have the class to keep it quiet as well.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Maybe we're being a bit hard on the PM. There was no love to be lost between the two of them. Perhaps she left very specific directions that the PM was not to attend her funeral?
> 
> The PM would certainly not want to make that public especially during an election run. Pretty sure the family would have the class to keep it quiet as well.


That might make sense. Certainly, Flora's ideas of a greater role for world government are not compatible with those of a Canadian nationalist.


----------



## CubaMark

*Anonymous threatens to release text messages from John Baird that allegedly reveal ‘real reason’ he left politics*



Hackers with Anonymous — who last week leaked a seemingly legitimate secret document on cyber-security at Canada’s spy agency — threatened Wednesday to release decrypted text messages from former Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird allegedly showing the “real reason” why he abruptly left politics.

The warning was made in social media from an account the National Post confirms is one that has been operated by activists responsible for the CSIS leak.

No evidence was presented by the hacktivists to support the claim.

When reached by the National Post, Baird declined to comment on the warning. Requests for comment to the Department of Foreign Affairs went unanswered.

Baird, who was one of the highest-profile members of Stephen Harper’s cabinet, quit suddenly in February to join the private sector.

Announcing his resignation with optimism for “the next chapter in my life,” his friends suggested he was heading to Bay Street and he found himself in demand.

The month after leaving he was hired as an international advisor to Barrick Gold Corp and nominated to the board of directors of Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. In May he joined law firm Bennett Jones LLP as a senior adviser among others. At the time, when opposition critics questioned his quick moves, he said he consulted the Ethics Commissioner before accepting his new roles and “got the green light.”

The Twitter account @OpAnonDown — named in honour of its claimed mission of seeking justice for an Anonymous protester shot and killed by the RCMP during a confrontation in Dawson Creek, B.C. — said text messages and a video are pending for release on this subject.​
(National Post)


----------



## Rps

Okay, so I admit that I am a Baseball fan. Some consider it boring, I consider it one of the few sports which still has some grace in it.
But there are a few questions about Baseball which dog the most hardened of fan: American League or National League, Pitching or Hitting?

This leads me to think about our up coming election. The League question can be equated to parties, but the pitching and hitting question.....
To this, I equate the Leader or the member. So, if you were the Manager of a political party would you focus on the Leader ( pitching ) or the member ( hitting ).

I have often asked myself this question, not only in baseball but elections as well. Parties seem to focus on the leader but do very little to shore up the member roster in my opinion, the Liberals come to mind, as in the early days the NDP. 
So what are your thoughts...... should our parties focus on pitching or hitting.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Okay, so I admit that I am a Baseball fan. Some consider it boring, I consider it one of the few sports which still has some grace in it.
> But there are a few questions about Baseball which dog the most hardened of fan: American League or National League, Pitching or Hitting?
> 
> This leads me to think about our up coming election. The League question can be equated to parties, but the pitching and hitting question.....
> To this, I equate the Leader or the member. So, if you were the Manager of a political party would you focus on the Leader ( pitching ) or the member ( hitting ).
> 
> I have often asked myself this question, not only in baseball but elections as well. Parties seem to focus on the leader but do very little to shore up the member roster in my opinion, the Liberals come to mind, as in the early days the NDP.
> So what are your thoughts...... should our parties focus on pitching or hitting.


National League and hitting for me .............. in baseball.

In politics, it is pitching that will determine my vote, although I did vote for Norm Doyle, the PC member of Parliament in St. John's East, because he was an honest man and I wanted to send a message to the Liberals for just dropping in a candidate in our riding when they were a majority government.


----------



## Macfury

Leader. Local party members are largely organisms of the leader, except in the rarely announced "free vote."



Rps said:


> To this, I equate the Leader or the member. So, if you were the Manager of a political party would you focus on the Leader ( pitching ) or the member ( hitting ).


----------



## BigDL

It is 338 elections that determine the makeup of the next Parliament folks, not baseball, horse races or boxing.


----------



## fjnmusic

So it is official. An eleven week election campaign, the longest and most expensive in Canadian history, begins today, culminating in an October 19 federal election. Any predictions?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

BigDL said:


> It is 338 elections that determine the makeup of the next Parliament folks, not baseball, horse races or boxing.


So I am guessing you vote for the local member......


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> So it is official. An eleven week election campaign, the longest and most expensive in Canadian history, begins today, culminating in an October 19 federal election. Any predictions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The Cons have a large war chest, will spend the others into oblivion. Am thinking a Con minority.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> So I am guessing you vote for the local member......


No! Not in the last 30 years that I have lived along the riverbank. Literally the safest Conservative seat in all of Canada.

I shall vote, as I have always voted, that is for a candidate as my representative that espouses policies that are in my interest.


----------



## Rps

BigDL said:


> No! Not in the last 30 years that I have lived along the riverbank. Literally the safest Conservative seat in all of Canada.
> 
> I shall vote, as I have always voted, that is for a candidate as my representative that espouses policies that are in my interest.


BigDL, that is what I meant by voting for the member, sorry for the confusion of my post.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> It is 338 elections that determine the makeup of the next Parliament folks, not baseball, horse races or boxing.


Well, we are off and running and the "team" that scores the most "runs" will win. We shall see.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> It is 338 elections that determine the makeup of the next Parliament folks, not baseball, horse races or boxing.


Guess you have never heard anyone in 30 years call an election campaign a 'horse race'?


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> BigDL, that is what I meant by voting for the member, sorry for the confusion of my post.


So not what the talking head of party sounds or appears like but policy.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Guess you have never heard anyone in 30 years call an election campaign a 'horse race'?


Yes I did, hence my comment.

Many in the media like to have the population focus on foolishness that has little to do with reality of the situation but a misdirection to sell commercials and Ad's.


----------



## SINC

Naw, we leave that kind of misinformation to the NDP and their unions.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Naw, we leave that kind of misinformation to the NDP and their unions.



Good ol' reliable! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Naw, we leave that kind of misinformation to the NDP and their unions.


Now SINC, what does the NDP have to do with unions?


----------



## CubaMark

*Mary Catherine Finn* (née McCormick)










_June 6, 1943 to July 19, 2015. Aged 72 years. _​

*Born:* Peterborough, Ontario. 

*Died:* Toronto, Ontario. 

She passed away quietly in her sleep.

Catherine was born with a sharp wit and steely backbone that can only come from growing up as a woman in the Irish Catholic tradition of the middle 20th Century. She was a voracious reader, a lover of life, and a fearless defender of the world of ideas. She loved family, fine wine and good food, in that order, preferably shared over a candle-lit table with good music and excellent company.

She met the love of her life, Gerry, during high school and they married shortly thereafter. Their life-long relationship was a true partnership and they brought out the best in each other. She made many sacrifices in life so that her three sons could benefit in ways that she did not. By her example she instilled in each of them love for the arts, passion for social justice, and humility in generosity. Her six grandchildren brought her enormous joy and were her favourite subject of conversation.

A connoisseur of words, she would want you to know that she always believed Margaret Atwood was vastly overrated and Margaret Laurence equally underrated. In lieu of donations, Catherine would want you to do everything you can to drive Stephen Harper from office, right out of the country, and into the deep blue sea if possible. Also, she would like you to fix the CBC.

She is predeceased by her husband. Gerald 'Gerry' Finn; her parents, James and Kathleen (née O'Leary) McCormick; and her sister, Mary Frances. She is survived by her siblings, Barbara, Robert and Peter; her three sons, Patrick, Andrew (Evelyn Paris), and Jonathan (Janice Maarhuis); and six beautiful grandchildren, Molly, Max, Elliott, Thomas, Naomi and Neve.

We miss her so much. You were one of the good ones mom. We love you.​
Donations to St. Joseph's Health Centre are most welcome: St. Joseph's Health Centre Foundation - Home

(HuffPo)


----------



## Macfury

Sorry she died, but she is _so_ wrong.


----------



## heavyall

Rps said:


> The Cons have a large war chest, will spend the others into oblivion. Am thinking a Con minority.


The advantage of the long campaign for the Conservatives is even if they only get a minority, they would be able to go right back to another election at any time, while the others could not. They'd be free to either govern as if they had a majority, or to go right back to another election that could literally bankrupt the opposition.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> The advantage of the long campaign for the Conservatives is even if they only get a minority, they would be able to go right back to another election at any time, while the others could not. They'd be free to either govern as if they had a majority, or to go right back to another election that could literally bankrupt the opposition.


Yep, 'cause that's what democracy is all about... (these days)


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> The advantage of the long campaign for the Conservatives is even if they only get a minority, they would be able to go right back to another election at any time, while the others could not. They'd be free to either govern as if they had a majority, or to go right back to another election that could literally bankrupt the opposition.



Sounds about right. Gaming the system is the only way Harper knows how to win. It's how he got the PC's and Reform/Alliance together in the first place. I have a feeling it will backfire though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Yep, 'cause that's what democracy is all about... (these days)


It is fully democratic in that anyone who supports the other parties is equally free to make donations to them. The donation limits make the process fully grassroots. Those with the most people who really believe in them will also be the best financed.

Besides, the tactic only benefits the one with the biggest coffers if they win a minority. Win a majority (or lose to one), and they have 4 years to replenish their funds.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It is fully democratic in that anyone who supports the other parties is equally free to make donations to them. The donation limits make the process fully grassroots. Those with the most people who really believe in them will also be the best financed.
> 
> Besides, the tactic only benefits the one with the biggest coffers if they win a minority. Win a majority (or lose to one), and they have 4 years to replenish their funds.


The communist candidates never win because they don't have enough money to get their beautiful message heard...


----------



## SINC

Bump to move stalled thread.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> The advantage of the long campaign for the Conservatives is even if they only get a minority, they would be able to go right back to another election at any time, while the others could not. They'd be free to either govern as if they had a majority, or to go right back to another election that could literally bankrupt the opposition.


What makes you think if the Conservatives finish first in the seat count, but without a majority of seats in the Parliament of Canada that the Conservatives could ever acquire the confidence of the house to govern?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> What makes you think if the Conservatives finish first in the seat count, but without a majority of seats in the Parliament of Canada that the Conservatives could ever acquire the confidence of the house to govern?


Because that has tended to happen repeatedly throughout Canadian history.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Because that has tended to happen repeatedly throughout Canadian history.


Should the Conservatives finish first, they shall be offered the opportunity to form a Government but how shall a minority Conservative Government maintain the confidence of the house to pass legislation?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Should the Conservatives finish first, they shall be offered the opportunity to form a Government but how shall a minority Conservative Government maintain the confidence of the house to pass legislation?


That would all depend on what sort of legislation is being passed and how palatable it is to the losing parties. For example, an unwise stimulus program was created by the Conservatives when the Liberals and NDP joined forces to insist on and pass it with much backslapping. I'm not certain how flexible the Conservatives will be to create such legislation in the future, should they win.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> That would all depend on what sort of legislation is being passed and how palatable it is to the losing parties. For example, an unwise stimulus program was created by the Conservatives when the Liberals and NDP joined forces to insist on and pass it with much backslapping. I'm not certain how flexible the Conservatives will be to create such legislation in the future, should they win.


...or "a Motion of non-confidence" passed by the Opposition Parties.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> ...or "a Motion of non-confidence" passed by the Opposition Parties.


Not even a remote possibility for the first two, perhaps three years by any of the opposition parties after this election if a minority government is the result. It would be political suicide to force another election so soon, not to mention they would be without funds to fight another election.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Not even a remote possibility for the first two, perhaps three years by any of the opposition parties after this election if a minority government is the result. It would be political suicide to force another election so soon, not to mention they would be without funds to fight another election.


If the opposition Parties passed a Motion of Non-confidence on an "Opposition Day" say within the first 6 months following an election then the Governor General by convention would ask the Leader of the Official Opposition if he(she) could cobble together the required Confidence of the House, no election required.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> If the opposition Parties passed a Motion of Non-confidence on an "Opposition Day" say within the first 6 months following an election then the Governor General by convention would ask the Leader of the Official Opposition if he(she) could cobble together the required Confidence of the House, no election required.


It could happen if the Liberals and NDP want to destroy their independent brands.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It could happen if the Liberals and NDP want to destroy their independent brands.


 It seems a formal coalition did not hurt David Cameron's brand but did hurt the UK Liberal's brand in the last election held there. So yes and no.


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> Should the Conservatives finish first, they shall be offered the opportunity to form a Government but how shall a minority Conservative Government maintain the confidence of the house to pass legislation?


By being able to go right to another election while the other parties could not.




BigDL said:


> If the opposition Parties passed a Motion of Non-confidence on an "Opposition Day" say within the first 6 months following an election then the Governor General by convention would ask the Leader of the Official Opposition if he(she) could cobble together the required Confidence of the House, no election required.


The one time anything even remotely like that ever happened in Canada's history, it was considered a constitutional crisis. Ever since then, the Governor General does whatever the Prime Minister "advises".


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> By being able to go right to another election while the other parties could not.


After the Conservatives cost the Canadian people the hugest tax subsidy of Political Parties during the longest campaign in modern Canada's history, the public will not be interested nor tolerant of an election.



heavyall said:


> The one time anything even remotely like that ever happened in Canada's history, it was considered a constitutional crisis. Ever since then, the Governor General does whatever the Prime Minister "advises".


We shall see if the convention of "the confidence of the House" still stands in Canada.


----------



## Oakbridge

heavyall said:


> It is fully democratic in that anyone who supports the other parties is equally free to make donations to them. The donation limits make the process fully grassroots. Those with the most people who really believe in them will also be the best financed.


No, it doesn't. It depends on the wealth of the people that believe in each party. The combination will deterimine the party who is best financed.

The upper class can be smaller in numbers but continue to donate to the party that suits their requirements with donations that reach the limit each year. The middle and lower class (who have less to donate) may have larger numbers but it is probably a given that each person has less to afford to donate and so will never hit their donation limit. 

An example, the newborn child of someone in the upper class can make the maximum donation each year. I'd say it is a given that the newborn child of a single parent making minimum wage cannot make any donation.


----------



## CubaMark

*Harper’s health-care cuts recipe for privatization*

Any way you look at it, the federal Conservatives have slashed spending on health care and hindered innovation. Originally, Medicare was a shared responsibility between the federal government and provinces and territories, with each part contributing 50 per cent of the funding. Over time, the federal government’s contribution has declined. In 2004, Ottawa and the provinces signed the 2004 Health Accord, a 10-year agreement that stabilized federal funding at 20 per cent, with a six per cent annual increase.

When the accord expired in 2014, the Conservative government refused to meet with the provinces and territories. Instead of negotiating a new agreement, they unilaterally changed the Canada Health Transfer from a needs-based model to a per capita one. Health-care funding is now strictly based on population, and excludes rates of illness, demographics or rural access.

The funding formula will change again in 2017. Moving from fixed annual increases of six per cent, the rate of growth of the CHT will depend on each province’s gross domestic product.

What that means is that provinces with a larger population and higher economic growth will get larger funding increases, while less populated, poorer provinces with slower economic growth will have lower rates of health transfer growth.

Nova Scotia, which has an aging rural population with high rates of chronic disease, will lose over $902 million. In fact, the change to a per capita formula has already hurt the province. Nova Scotia received $20.3 million less in 2014-2015 and $24.3 million less for 2015-2016 than under the previous formula.

All provinces except Alberta will receive less funding under this new model. 

* * *​
This is a recipe for privatization.

Not only have the Conservatives slashed health funding growth, but they have refused to make much-needed improvements. Pharmacare, the Health Council of Canada and national standards of care have all been shuttered by the Harper government.

A universal pharmacare program, for example, would cover medicines and save up to $11 billion per year. That money could easily fund adequate home and long-term care and reductions in wait times. The 2004 Health Accord was supposed to include pharmacare, yet after Harper came to power in 2006, the Conservatives quickly shut down any discussion on the subject.

The federal Conservatives’ record is clear: they want to defund and privatize health care.​
(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Harper’s health-care cuts recipe for privatization


And your opinion on this is...


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> *Harper’s health-care cuts recipe for privatization*


Health Funding is 60% more now than it was when Harper took office, and it continues to increase. When people talk about getting less, what they really mean, is it's not as much MORE than they were hoping. The new rate of increase is also NOT simply GDP, it's GDP or 3% whichever is higher.

And increased privatization??? I wish. unfortunately this party has no interest in it whatsoever.


----------



## CubaMark

Sigh. We're not going to start with that again, are we? 

For the record: I oppose privatization of Canadian health care. I also oppose non-Canadian for-profit companies managing Canadian health care facilities. I am in favour of stable, long-term health care funding. I would like to see the Federal government get off its knees and stop pleasuring global pharmaceutical companies (dating back at least as far as Mulroney in '87, and potentially worse under CETA). There is no reason for Canada's health care system to suck as it currently does. It's simply a matter of political will and resisting the privatization craze of the Right.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Health Funding is 60% more now than it was when Harper took office, and it continues to increase.


Your statistic is meaningless in the debate unless you account for where those funds have gone. To higher drug purchase prices? Higher management fees and salaries? It sure as hell hasn't gone to front-line care, given the ever-increasing number of unstaffed beds available for patients, wait times, long-term care availability, etc.

If the government's policies have led to higher *costs* in the health care field, then higher funding means nothing toward improved care and accessibility.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Sigh. We're not going to start with that again, are we?


*We* never ended it.

Thank you for taking time out of your obviously very busy day to clarify for us peons what your position is...

<shaking my head>


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Your statistic is meaningless in the debate unless you account for where those funds have gone. To higher drug purchase prices? Higher management fees and salaries? It sure as hell hasn't gone to front-line care, given the ever-increasing number of unstaffed beds available for patients, wait times, long-term care availability, etc.
> 
> If the government's policies have led to higher *costs* in the health care field, then higher funding means nothing toward improved care and accessibility.


Talk to the provinces if they are mismanaging the astronomically large amount of funds they are getting. Hospital nearest me is cutting back on the number of MRI's they're doing per week, but somehow found over $300 million to build a giant glass atrium for the new front entrance.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> *We* never ended it.


Ah, justification for my persecution complex here. _*I knew it!*_


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Talk to the provinces if they are mismanaging the astronomically large amount of funds they are getting. Hospital nearest me is cutting back on the number of MRI's they're doing per week, but somehow found over $300 million to build a giant glass atrium for the new front entrance.


A $300-million glass atrium? I'll need supporting evidence. That boggles the mind. And calls into question the management of that particular hospital.

Back to the issue at hand. Harper's international trade deals, like CETA, TISA and the TPP, have enormous implications for Canadian health care reform:

*Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA)*

This is an almost-finalized agreement between Canada and the European Union that will face ratification votes in the latter half of this year or early in 2016.

.... this deal would *lengthen the patent protection for pharmaceutical corporations that could cost Canadians between $850 million to $1.65 billion annually*. 

Furthermore, under the investor-state provisions of CETA, companies could sue governments for laws that impact on their future profits. As such, CETA could *undermine the implementation of a national pharmacare program*. 

Already, US pharmaceutical giant Eli Lilly has sued Canada for $500 million using the NAFTA Chapter 11 investor-state provision after two courts invalidated their patents.​
And anytime someone sees profit to be made, it's a big red flag for essential services like Health Care:

The Sydney Morning Herald reports, "According to a leaked document, [TISA] negotiations ... will include discussion of wide-ranging reforms to national public health systems to promote 'offshoring' of health care services. ...The leaked 'concept paper on health care services within TISA negotiations' ... argues there is '*huge untapped potential for the globalisation of healthcare services', creating massive business opportunities* from what is a $US6 trillion per year industry.​
(Council of Canadians)


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> Ah, justification for my persecution complex here. _*I knew it!*_


GT, is that you?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> And anytime someone sees profit to be made, it's a big red flag for essential services like Health Care:


It is because they ae essential that they should be privatized. Only government-run enterprises have ever denied me essential services through strikes.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It is because they ae essential that they should be privatized. Only government-run enterprises have ever denied me essential services through strikes.


Privatization is a choice. Hospitals are not organized as public institutions. Often they are "crown corporations." Strike are a result in the breakdown of collective bargaining.

If an institution has private for profit management and its worker are organized the collective bargaining process would still be in play, therefore you offer a moot point.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Strike are a result in the breakdown of collective bargaining.


Sorry, but that one does not fly. 

Hospital strikes are an intentional withdrawal of services, denying Canadians health care, due directly to the greed and uncaring nature of unions.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Sorry, but that one does not fly.
> 
> Hospital strikes are an intentional withdrawal of services, denying Canadians health care, due directly to the greed and uncaring nature of unions.


What are *you on*, about now!


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> What are *you on*, about now!


Oh, lemme see. If you can't grasp it, you might be a union man?

I am stating a simple fact that no one with any shred of compassion (or honour for that matter) withdraws health services from the public for personal gain.

Can you grasp that?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Oh, lemme see. If you can't grasp it, you might be a union man?
> 
> I am stating a simple fact that no one with any shred of compassion (or honour for that matter) withdraws health services from the public for personal gain.
> 
> Can you grasp that?


Don't be a bitter man. Try to be a Better man.


----------



## arminia

Started in June 2004, the hospital's Atrium project took approximately 15 months to complete at a cost of 13.4 million dollars. The main doors have been open since November 2005, with the retail operations and the Gift Shop opening in the months since.
This is at St. Boniface Hospital. A long way from $300 million. If this isn't it he should let us know. If it is he needs professional help.


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## Macfury

It could happen, but it has never happened to me. If we had private sector hospitals, some would be unionized and some not. If I were in dire straits, I could at least receive care from the non-unionized hospital instead of perishing because someone's pay packet wasn't fat enough.



BigDL said:


> Privatization is a choice. Hospitals are not organized as public institutions. Often they are "crown corporations." Strike are a result in the breakdown of collective bargaining.
> 
> If an institution has private for profit management and its worker are organized the collective bargaining process would still be in play, therefore you offer a moot point.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It could happen, but it has never happened to me. If we had private sector hospitals, some would be unionized and some not. If I were in dire straits, I could at least receive care from the non-unionized hospital instead of perishing because someone's pay packet wasn't fat enough.


A "private sector" hospital is treated differently than if the hospital was a "government service." 

The "private sector" hospital is covered by a "Trade Union Act" or similar legislation. This legislation is much more open to reflect "bargaining in a free market environment."

Where as a Government Service is more restrictive. Bargaining with a Public Workers "Staff Relations Act" type of legislation gives the Government much more control than a "private sector" employer.

Under a "Staff Relations Act" workers are readily deem essential in large numbers rendering a strike moot.

So for your desired effect a "government service" would be, per your statement, in your best interest. Ironic n'est pas.


----------



## Macfury

It has not been in my best interest before. A friend's father died during a nursing strike, simply because his life-saving operation was postponed beyond the settlement of collective bargaining. But you are correct that if a hypothetical private hospital was also fully unionized, he would have died regardless. 





BigDL said:


> A "private sector" hospital is treated differently than if the hospital was a "government service."
> 
> The "private sector" hospital is covered by a "Trade Union Act" or similar legislation. This legislation is much more open to reflect "bargaining in a free market environment."
> 
> Where as a Government Service is more restrictive. Bargaining with a Public Workers "Staff Relations Act" type of legislation gives the Government much more control than a "private sector" employer.
> 
> Under a "Staff Relations Act" workers are readily deem essential in large numbers rendering a strike moot.
> 
> So for your desired effect a "government service" would be, per your statement, in your best interest. Ironic n'est pas.


----------



## SINC

Yep, unions are killers in every respect of their existance.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Yep, unions are killers in every respect of their existance.


----------



## Macfury

Hilarious meme and not even true. For example, the five-day workweek was not a union achievement, but a gift from Henry Ford--however, it predates him. Workplace pensions were first offered by the Hudson's Bay Company in the 1840s. I could keep going, but why bother. The usual thoughtless junk.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> ...the five-day workweek was not a union achievement, but a gift from Henry Ford--however, it predates him....


Ah, and Ford had control of all of the other workplaces across America back in the 20's, eh? All the other employers simply followed his good example. No union activism at all involved in securing that working condition on a broad scale. 

The fact that a 5-day workweek, or a workplace pension, or any other benefit to a working person *existed at some point, somewhere in the universe does not diminish the activism and solidarity of unions and their members in the struggle to universalize those benefits*.

That's pretty narrow thinking on your part - trying for a little revisionist history there, MF?


----------



## heavyall

Not only did no union ever give me any of those things, joining unions has resulted in me having to give up something I had without them. I can concede that it's possible they may have served a purpose many generations ago, but they are a parasite now and it's long past time that we killed them off.


----------



## heavyall

arminia said:


> Started in June 2004, the hospital's Atrium project took approximately 15 months to complete at a cost of 13.4 million dollars. The main doors have been open since November 2005, with the retail operations and the Gift Shop opening in the months since.
> This is at St. Boniface Hospital. A long way from $300 million. If this isn't it he should let us know. If it is he needs professional help.


Thanks for that. That's a fraction of what was reported in the paper. The $300M number is what employees at the hospital have told me -- it was during a particularly bad time of services being cut back, so I'm sure the people saying it weren't exactly feeling neutral about it.

Even if the $13.4M number is accurate, still the point remains, the MB NDP have been spending a lot of money, but were are getting nice buildings rather than healthcare results. We have the worst wait times in the country, and are near the bottom for most markers


----------



## fjnmusic

The anti-Union venom here should not be surprising, but it still is. Didn't realize how deep-seated some people's absolute hatred can be. Seems more like jealousy. I've worked two Union jobs over the last six and twenty-seven years and I appreciate the benefits. The difference, I don't hate the people that work in the private sector, although I do feel sorry for them sometimes. Haters gonna hate.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> The anti-Union venom here should not be surprising, but it still is. Didn't realize how deep-seated some people's absolute hatred can be. Seems more like jealousy. I've worked two Union jobs over the last six and twenty-seven years and I appreciate the benefits. The difference, I don't hate the people that work in the private sector, although I do feel sorry for them sometimes. Haters gonna hate.


Of course you don;t hate them--they're forced to pay you money they don't think you're earning. Conversely, that's why they don't like public sector unions--they're forced to pay wages they don't believe you earn because of bad or indifferent negotiations form government. If you earned those wages in the private sector, nobody would care.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Ah, and Ford had control of all of the other workplaces across America back in the 20's, eh? All the other employers simply followed his good example. No union activism at all involved in securing that working condition on a broad scale.
> 
> The fact that a 5-day workweek, or a workplace pension, or any other benefit to a working person *existed at some point, somewhere in the universe does not diminish the activism and solidarity of unions and their members in the struggle to universalize those benefits*.
> 
> That's pretty narrow thinking on your part - trying for a little revisionist history there, MF?


Sure, CM--youe meme is proved wrong, so you're already falling back to a secondary position.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Sure, CM--youe meme is proved wrong, so you're already falling back to a secondary position.


What? Sorry, Bizarro MacFury, but that does't jibe. Meme not wrong. I'm not responsible for your inability to understand reality.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> ....it's possible they may have served a purpose many generations ago, but they are a parasite now and it's long past time that we killed them off.


Are you serious, or ideologically impaired? Do you honestly believe that a world without unions protecting workers would be better? Paint me that picture, please.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> What? Sorry, Bizarro MacFury, but that does't jibe. Meme not wrong. I'm not responsible for your inability to understand reality.


Man, you are so 1922...

Ans I don't need a link to know who Bizarro is. I have the 80-page DC Giant right here at home.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Of course you don;t hate them--they're forced to pay you money they don't think you're earning. Conversely, that's why they don't like public sector unions--they're forced to pay wages they don't believe you earn because of bad or indifferent negotiations form government. If you earned those wages in the private sector, nobody would care.



Your ignorance on the matter is incredible, though somehow fitting. It is the private sector workers in my province, particularly in the oil patch, who were way over paid for the work they do. Six figure salaries for many people for blue collar work. Boom or bust. Now many are out of work, partly because they were overpaid and the companies could no longer support that kind of wage. Meanwhile, us union types have just kept plugging along at our negotiated wages, no labor action in about 13 years, putting up with an arrogant PC gov't under Redford and then Prentice, sucking it up with a three year wage freeze. Only Stelmach proved to be a decent and fair man and had the gov't pay what they owe, and as a result, he was not too popular with the private sector. 

No, my friend, you've got it pretty much all backwards about unions. They protect workers from being abused by employers. They fight for a fair wage, not an extravagant one, like oil workers made during the boom times. I'm tired of reading your shallow-minded insults.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Are you serious, or ideologically impaired? Do you honestly believe that a world without unions protecting workers would be better? Paint me that picture, please.


Exponentially better. Unions are job killing parasites. They are organized crime.


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## Macfury

They were paid the market rate when the job was available. They needed to pay those wages to attract workers. No complaints. I could choose whether or not to do business with companies if I felt their rate of pay was making their product too expensive.

Public sector workers are often paid consistently over market rate--even with temporary wage freezes. Advertise most public sector jobs for three quarters of the wages and see if someone qualified doesn't snap them up. These are not insults, simply reality.

Plug along, fjn--I would if I were you!




fjnmusic said:


> Your ignorance on the matter is incredible, though somehow fitting. It is the private sector workers in my province, particularly in the oil patch, who were way over paid for the work they do. Six figure salaries for many people for blue collar work. Boom or bust. Now many are out of work, partly because they were overpaid and the companies could no longer support that kind of wage. Meanwhile, us union types have just kept plugging along at our negotiated wages, no labor action in about 13 years, putting up with an arrogant PC gov't under Redford and then Prentice, sucking it up with a three year wage freeze. Only Stelmach proved to be a decent and fair man and had the gov't pay what they owe, and as a result, he was not too popular with the private sector.
> 
> No, my friend, you've got it pretty much all backwards about unions. They protect workers from being abused by employers. They fight for a fair wage, not an extravagant one, like oil workers made during the boom times. I'm tired of reading your shallow-minded insults.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

The time for a Guaranteed Annual Income might finally have come - The Globe and Mail

"Joseph Ceci, Alberta’s new Finance Minister, proposed a guaranteed income program last year on the election campaign trail. Both Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi and Edmonton Mayor Don Iveson have touted similar programs."

Alberta is becoming more and more progressive in a positive manner. Good to see. :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Alberta is becoming more and more progressive in a positive manner. Good to see. :clap: :clap: :clap:


Where's that technicolor vomiting icon when you need it...


----------



## Macfury

He proposed it during the election! It isn't happening!



Dr.G. said:


> The time for a Guaranteed Annual Income might finally have come - The Globe and Mail
> 
> "Joseph Ceci, Alberta’s new Finance Minister, proposed a guaranteed income program last year on the election campaign trail. Both Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi and Edmonton Mayor Don Iveson have touted similar programs."
> 
> Alberta is becoming more and more progressive in a positive manner. Good to see. :clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> He proposed it during the election! It isn't happening!


Sorry to hear this, Macfury. Hopefully, it shall come about in AB. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry to hear this, Macfury. Hopefully, it shall come about in AB. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


A socialist paradise. A living wage for doing sweet-dick-all! It will be great when everybody goes on the program!


----------



## eMacMan

The Summary hearings on the FATCA-IGA lawsuit began yesterday. For those of you with that contaminating drop of American blood, whose life savings may well be at risk, good impression of yesterdays proceedings here:
The Isaac Brock Society | From @ADCSSovereignty #FATCA lawsuit is underway – thoughts on day 1 and more…



> *Third, The Government lawyers …*
> Although our cause is just, the case is legally complex and the legal arguments are difficult. We all know that we begin with a presumption that the FATCA IGA will be upheld. Sorry, but that’s just reality. Anybody with a U.S. place of birth who lives outside the United States is now subject to oppression and persecution. It is incumbent on those who are oppressed and persecuted to reclaim their dignity, reclaim their rights and reclaim their freedom. That’s just the way it is.
> 
> 
> The Government could have selected a better legal team. My impression is that the Government lawyers do NOT understand the broader implications of FATCA, that FATCA is an issue that affects ALL Canadians, that FATCA burden’s Canada’s sovereignty and most importantly that:
> *FATCA is simply wrong!*​ Remember:​ *“It’s not a sprint. It’s a marathon.”*​ This will be appealed. It will continue for a long time. That said, this group of “government lawyers” has the capacity to “snatch defeat out the jaws of victory.”


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> The anti-Union venom here should not be surprising, but it still is. Didn't realize how deep-seated some people's absolute hatred can be. Seems more like jealousy. I've worked two Union jobs over the last six and twenty-seven years and I appreciate the benefits. The difference, I don't hate the people that work in the private sector, although I do feel sorry for them sometimes. Haters gonna hate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well, some people are bright enough to reject union advances:

WestJet pilots vote against forming union - Business - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

I'd heard about the vote earlier in the week. Wondered how it would finish. Interesting how it turned out.

Have an acquaintance who flys for them. Next time I see him, I'll have to ask him what his thoughts were...


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Well, some people are bright enough to reject union advances:
> 
> WestJet pilots vote against forming union - Business - CBC News


Probable headline in the "progressive" newspapers:

_Disastrous WestJet vote means profits slashed for union management._


----------



## Macfury

It would be nice to see that corpse of a Liberal leader Justin Trudeau work to regain some of the party's traditional support from the NDP. They're in panic mode at Liberal Party headquarters, but this somnambulist thinks he's doing fine.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> It would be nice to see that corpse of a Liberal leader Justin Trudeau work to regain some of the party's traditional support from the NDP. They're in panic mode at Liberal Party headquarters, but this somnambulist thinks he's doing fine.


If Justin keeps posing for shots like this one on Imgur today, he will remain in trouble. Warning, nudity.

This has gotta be a first for an election campaign. - Imgur


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> If Justin keeps posing for shots like this one on Imgur today, he will remain in trouble. Warning, nudity.
> 
> This has gotta be a first for an election campaign. - Imgur


At least he's wearing pants. Now if only he could find a pair that fit.


----------



## eMacMan

Further to the final day of the FATCA summary trial. From John Richardson's review



> There were two moments when the language/suggestions/statements of the Government of Canada lawyer – resulted in audible commentary (laughter/snickering) from the audience. They were:
> 
> The suggestion that nobody forced Canada to sign the IGA, that it was signed voluntarily. *“Nobody had a gun to Canada’s head”.* Incidentally as part of this submission the lawyer argued that Canada received significant benefits under the IGA. Q. What significant benefit? A. Well, clearly the agreement of the USA to not impose the 30% FATCA sanction. As I was listening to this, I remembered the scene from the Godfather, when Don Carleone informed somebody that “either his brains or his signature would be on the contract“. But, hey this is what passes for diplomacy in the FATCA world.
> Explaining that *Eritrean citizenship taxation was offensive only because Eritrea was using its tax revenues to finance its military* and prosecute wars. As you know, the United States does NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES use taxes to finance it’s military. Obviously the United States military must be financed through “local bake sales of brownies, coffee and cookies”. But no matter.


The entire second day review here:
https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.co...summary-trial-means-the-end-of-the-beginning/


----------



## Macfury

Thanks, eMacMan--good stuff.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Further to the final day of the FATCA summary trial. From John Richardson's review
> 
> 
> 
> The entire second day review here:
> https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.co...summary-trial-means-the-end-of-the-beginning/


This was at the end of the article --

"As I finish this summary, I am reminded of how the Government lawyer characterized U.S. citizens in Canada. He said (perhaps inadvertently) that:

U.S. citizens living in Canada are either “U.S. tax compliant” OR that they are “tax cheats”.

Is he correct? Are the only two kinds of people born in the United States? Are there more than two kinds of U.S. born people? That question is “simply above my pay grade”."


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

That's a hilarious meme. You could just use it in any election--or say you lost for the same reason.


----------



## heavyall

People who don't vote are supporters of the incumbent. They are content with the status quo, and they feel no need to do anything about it.


----------



## rgray

People who don't vote are parasites on the system who are not entitled to complain......


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> People who don't vote are parasites on the system who are not entitled to complain......


I agree that the have no right to complain. My vote entitles me to years of kvetching.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

^^^^
Some metaphoric truth in that........


----------



## eMacMan

More from John Richardson:
https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.co...ve-more-on-adcsoverignty-fatca-summary-trial/


> *What I witnessed on August 4 and 5 2015 would be described to a non-lawyer as follows …*
> What I saw (I think) was:The Government of Canada, was spending money belonging to Canadian taxpayers to defend it’s “God Given” right to, to trade one million Canadian citizens into “U.S. Tax Slavery” in return for the United States to NOT attack Canada’s banks. Oh, and the Government of Canada is also agreeing to let the U.S. come back every year with new criteria for deciding which Canadian citizens they want to make U.S. taxpayers.​


To be a bit more specific I think that should say: in return for the IRS not to attack Canadian banks via a 30% withholding of US funds. Attacks in the form of multi-million dollar fines are still A-OK, and now formally blessed by the Canadian Government.


----------



## FeXL

Curiouser & curiouser...

Find out what Mulcair said in French about stay-at-home moms (that he hasn't said in English)



> I'll show you an NDP infographic they want supporters to share on social media. Translated, it says, "Stephen Harper thinks keeping moms at home will help families. Not me."
> 
> That refers to the Conservatives' Universal Child Care Benefit, which is a sum they can use to pay for daycare OR put toward the expenses of stay at home parenting. It's each family's decision as to how they'll spend it.
> 
> Mulcair, on the other hand, wants to give parents a $15/day payout, but only if they put they children in daycare.
> 
> He's based his plan on the existing Quebec daycare system, which the Media Party would have you believe is a panacea.
> 
> The reality is, however, that the Quebec program is hugely expensive, the waiting lists are years long, and it really only benefits high-income families.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Curiouser & curiouser...
> 
> Find out what Mulcair said in French about stay-at-home moms (that he hasn't said in English)


Where Mulcair (and his Quebec connections) are concerned, it keeps getting darker and darker. This is no man to even consider leading this country. Very scary. It comes down to two choices. Do Canadians want to be lead by yet another Quebecer, or ahem, 'block' them all out?


----------



## Vandave

I think it's time for the country to be run by another lawyer from Montreal.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> I think it's time for the country to be run by another lawyer from Montreal.


The problem with communism is that it never goes far enough! By the time all of its benefits are ready to become apparent, Boxer dies.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> The problem with communism is that it never goes far enough! By the time all of its benefits are ready to become apparent, Boxer dies.


We're a big country. If we take most of the wealth from the top 38 families, there is more than enough to go around. That will help pay for things while we cancel all the dirty oil projects. We will also achieve a greater level of egalitarianism by levelling the playing field.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> We're a big country. If we take most of the wealth from the top 38 families, there is more than enough to go around. That will help pay for things while we cancel all the dirty oil projects. We will also achieve a greater level of egalitarianism by levelling the playing field.


We need to cap the salaries of everyone but public sector employees who earn their keep fairly.


----------



## Vandave

And corporations.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> And corporations.


Cap earnings on corporations... except those offering prohibitively expensive green energy.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Cap earnings on corporations... except those offering prohibitively expensive green energy.


Don't cap the earnings, just nationalize all corporations and let "the people" maximize the earnings they confiscate.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Don't cap the earnings, just nationalize all corporations and let "the people" maximize the earnings they confiscate.


Right on! Time to make THE MAN work for us!!!


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> Right on! Time to make THE MAN work for us!!!


Predistribution of wealth is the approach. It's not confiscation if you take it before they have ownership.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> Predistribution of wealth is the approach. It's not confiscation if you take it before they have ownership.


Ownership is what's left after we're through using what's rightfully ours.


----------



## eMacMan

I posted this earlier along with a link to the entire article. Re-posting it to include a very relevant sentence.



> *What I witnessed on August 4 and 5 2015 would be described to a non-lawyer as follows …*
> What I saw (I think) was:The Government of Canada, was spending money belonging to Canadian taxpayers to defend it’s “God Given” right to, to trade one million Canadian citizens into “U.S. Tax Slavery” in return for the United States to NOT attack Canada’s banks. Oh, and the Government of Canada is also agreeing to let the U.S. come back every year with new criteria for deciding which Canadian citizens they want to make U.S. taxpayers.​I have no doubt that this characterization will offend a certain “calibre of mind”, but I challenge you to identify a single word of this characterization that is incorrect.


My original post:
http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-1536.html#post2011177


----------



## FeXL

Mulcair’s carbon confusion



> NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair, the man most likely to become the next prime minister of Canada if it’s not Stephen Harper, either doesn’t understand what carbon pricing is, or is pretending he doesn’t.
> 
> Either prospect is alarming.


However, neither is a surprise...


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark




----------



## MacGuiver

CubaMark said:


>


A fair minded cartoonist would show what was happening on the other rinks of the world at the same time. I'm sure they all balanced the books through the recession years.
The irony is that the critics of this governments spending were all screaming for economic stimulus packages during those years. They didn't seem too concerned about a balanced budget then.


----------



## Macfury

Balancing the budget for all of the other parties means increasing spending by 30 per cent and taxes by 40.



MacGuiver said:


> The irony is that the critics of this governments spending were all screaming for economic stimulus packages during those years. They didn't seem too concerned about a balanced budget then.


----------



## eMacMan

The Holy Harpy reduced taxes and increased spending, a combo that racked up $150 Billion in new debt at a time when Canada could and should have been balancing its budget.

That was Reaganomics at its worst, and the result was predictable and avoidable. More debt!!!!!

The progression is simple. Control spending until you are at a healthy surplus. Pay down the debt until the interest on that debt no longer holds the nation to ransom. At that point either reduce taxes to keep the most of the surplus in taxpayer hands or increase spending to sustainable levels.


----------



## Rps

Your point is a theoretical one, the trouble with " surplus " is it isn't real money, and one has to not forget about the " roll-up", you control that, then you are getting somewhere.


----------



## Macfury

This is why I consistently tell the Conservative Party I will vote for them but not send them money. They spend too much.



eMacMan said:


> The Holy Harpy reduced taxes and increased spending, a combo that racked up $150 Billion in new debt at a time when Canada could and should have been balancing its budget.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> The Holy Harpy reduced taxes and increased spending, a combo that racked up $150 Billion in new debt at a time when Canada could and should have been balancing its budget.
> 
> That was Reaganomics at its worst, and the result was predictable and avoidable. More debt!!!!!
> 
> The progression is simple. Control spending until you are at a healthy surplus. Pay down the debt until the interest on that debt no longer holds the nation to ransom. At that point either reduce taxes to keep the most of the surplus in taxpayer hands or increase spending to sustainable levels.



It's also about time that governments stop balancing the budget on the backs of civil servants by cutting their wages—there are many other ways to curtail government spending that don't involve making the same people always sacrifice. Where did that $3.1 billion go that was missing in 2012? Did they ever find it?


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## Macfury

No, it is time that governments cut more spending on the backs of civil servants, whose civil service is simply empire building--not performing tasks essential to good government. Also time to cut corporate welfare to zero.



fjnmusic said:


> It's also about time that governments stop balancing the budget on the backs of civil servants by cutting their wages—there are many other ways to curtail government spending that don't involve making the same people always sacrifice. Where did that $3.1 billion go that was missing in 2012? Did they ever find it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rps

So, MacFury, what would you cut..... Military, Border Services, Taxation Services, Environmemtal, Education, Health ( although some valid points can be made for Education and Health reductions at the Federal level.

What I see is the biggest flaw is the Feds are needlessly spending and administrating in Provincial areas. We also are spending too much in areas that do not make sense, Indian Affairs would be my first area to review if I were the PM, followed by Military purchasing practices. Additionally I would put an end to election party financing ( the recent change has given the Cons a huge advantage, thus the reason for the long campaign this time ).


----------



## Macfury

I would simply cut 10 per cent of them across the board--attrition and retirement first. The government could reallocate the staff cuts to whatever department it saw fit.



Rps said:


> So, MacFury, what would you cut..... Military, Border Services, Taxation Services, Environmemtal, Education, Health ( although some valid points can be made for Education and Health reductions at the Federal level.
> 
> What I see is the biggest flaw is the Feds are needlessly spending and administrating in Provincial areas. We also are spending too much in areas that do not make sense, Indian Affairs would be my first area to review if I were the PM, followed by Military purchasing practices. Additionally I would put an end to election party financing ( the recent change has given the Cons a huge advantage, thus the reason for the long campaign this time ).


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> No, it is time that governments cut more spending on the backs of civil servants, whose civil service is simply empire building--not performing tasks essential to good government. Also time to cut corporate welfare to zero.



Yes on the corporate welfare, no on the civil servant wage cuts. What makes you think I should sacrifice so that you don't have to suffer? At least with GST, everybody pays proportionate to what they spend. 


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## Macfury

At least 10 per cent of the civil service is populated by overfed middle management trough hogs. They need to go first.

When I don't buy someone's products I don't say that the company's workers are "sacrificing so that I don't have to suffer." Why should a civil service worker think a wage cut or reduction in staffing was a "sacrifice?" A sacrifice for whom?



fjnmusic said:


> Yes on the corporate welfare, no on the civil servant wage cuts. What makes you think I should sacrifice so that you don't have to suffer? At least with GST, everybody pays proportionate to what they spend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> At least 10 per cent of the civil service is populated by overfed middle management trough hogs. They need to go first.
> 
> 
> 
> When I don't buy someone's products I don't say that the company's workers are "sacrificing so that I don't have to suffer." Why should a civil service worker think a wage cut or reduction in staffing was a "sacrifice?" A sacrifice for whom?



A sacrifice for who so you don't have to pay more taxes, my myopic friend. This has been the pattern in Alberta since the days of Ralph Klein: balance the budget but cutting back on public sector wages, particularly nurses, doctors and teachers, rather than have everyone absorb the cost through taxes. It's the typical shallow thinking of the rich elite: we don't want to make less, so let's force the wage cut on the only segment of society we can. 


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## Macfury

I think you've got it backwards! It isn't the rich elite who are suffering--taxpayers are sacrificing to pay gold-plated salaries and benefits packages for people earning far more than they are. 




fjnmusic said:


> A sacrifice for who so you don't have to pay more taxes, my myopic friend. This has been the pattern in Alberta since the days of Ralph Klein: balance the budget but cutting back on public sector wages, particularly nurses, doctors and teachers, rather than have everyone absorb the cost through taxes. It's the typical shallow thinking of the rich elite: we don't want to make less, so let's force the wage cut on the only segment of society we can.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I think you've got it backwards! It isn't the rich elite who are suffering--taxpayers are sacrificing to pay gold-plated salaries and benefits packages for people earning far more than they are.


Macfury, you are sounding more and more like Bernie Sanders. Good for you. A libertarian socialist ............. sounds interesting. I'd vote for you. "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win." Paix, mon ami.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDm3qr3Zlu0[/ame]


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I think you've got it backwards! It isn't the rich elite who are suffering--taxpayers are sacrificing to pay gold-plated salaries and benefits packages for people earning far more than they are.



Well that certainly doesn't include me. I've endured a wage freeze for the last three years, a whopping 2% increase coming in September (while the cost of living has continued to climb), while the provincial MLA's led by the PC gov't have seen a 71% wage increase between 2010 and 2015. We have to live with this arrangement for a full more year before we can talk of any adjustment. And that idiot Prentice dared to announce that there would be no increase in public sector wages until the budget is balanced. No, I'd have to say the rich elite and their CAPP friends have been one and the same in Alberta for a very long time, and the PC's have rightfully been turfed. I'm jot the one with a gold-plated pension, but I can think of dozens of former gov't members who are.


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## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> Macfury, you are sounding more and more like Bernie Sanders. Good for you. A libertarian socialist ............. sounds interesting. I'd vote for you. "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win." Paix, mon ami.
> 
> 
> 
> [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDm3qr3Zlu0[/ame]



Funny, Dr. G, but I don't think that's quite what Macfury had in mind.


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## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Funny, Dr. G, but I don't think that's quite what Macfury had in mind.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, fjn, "any port in a storm". If Macfury wants to come in from the cold and "join the progressive fight", who am I to complain. Actually, some of the libertarian beliefs make sense when it comes to government collecting/knowing/using all sorts of info about our lives. "This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship." We shall see. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDhGS4EJS8M[/ame]

So, onwards to victory ............... Excelsior.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## rgray

SURETTE: Harper banks on the distracted to pursue destructive spree | The Chronicle Herald


> You have to assume that with 70 per cent or so of the electorate hostile, what we’re seeing is the end of the Harper regime, whether it’s done cleanly in the upcoming election or in a second one after a period of chaotic minority government.
> 
> And when Stephen Harper does go down, it will be a shame if if he does so merely because the economy took a downward turn, because it’s “time for a change,” because of scandal in the Senate, or any of the other more or less conventional reasons pollsters and pundits carry on about.
> 
> If so, the country will have avoided facing the larger reality. This is not an election like any other. What’s at stake is nothing less than the integrity of Canada’s most fundamental features — the justice system, the electoral system, the public service, the tax system and Parliament itself — all of which Harper has relentlessly assaulted and would complete the job of reducing to his personal playthings if only enough people could be kept deep enough in the dark to give him one more majority.
> 
> It has been a mark of Harper’s manipulative genius to keep all this under the radar. It has also been the signal failure of the opposition parties to raise their sights and crystallize these crucial arguments against him. (Thursday’s leaders’ debate brushed past all this — a segment on “democracy” dealt mainly with electoral reform, the Senate, the role of MPs and so on).
> 
> For years now, it has been my immense frustration that the opposition leaders don’t keep a handy mantra of these abuses, updated virtually daily with every new and under-reported Harperist outrage, that they could repeat at every public speech.
> 
> Granted that the troublesome weakening of our democratic instincts in a culture of egotism and narcissism makes the gradual erosion of fundamental rights and freedoms a hard sell as an issue, at the same time making it all the more imperative to raise it. And the media —meaning primarily television — are hardly more enlightening, and would face the same general public yawn even if they were.
> 
> This yawn is pure gold for Harper. The Harper assault on the rule of law — done under the long cloak of questioning “liberalism,” but in reality an ugly power grab in line with the corporatist philosophy of the U.S. Republican Party — has been amply documented, and a number of books written. For a handy recent rundown, go to voices-voix.ca, where a coalition of some 200 civil society groups like Amnesty Canada and Democracy Watch have a report entitled “Dismantling Democracy.”
> 
> Along with the dismantled watchdog bodies, the fired and muzzled scientists, the harassment of charitable organizations with tax audits, the totalitarian instruction to federal librarians to “demonstrate loyalty” to the regime even when off duty, the dismissal of evidence in favour of ideology in policy and legislation, and on and on, you might note this: cuts in staff at the Department of Justice are such that legislation riddled with errors has been passed, usually hidden in democracy-mocking omnibus bills. Some have been, and others probably will be, knocked down by the Supreme Court.
> 
> The Harperist mentality is not to fix this, but rather to try harder to rig the courts (so far even Harper’s appointed judges have gagged at his legal predations), as concerns rise in legal circles about some of his appointments, including his latest to the Supreme Court, an Alberta judge who was only a few years ago, as a law professor, blogging the Harperist line.
> 
> The point here, however, is that Harper doesn’t give a hoot about books and people who read them, or about people who read newspapers, for that matter. The game has always been to target what they were once calling the “Tim Horton’s crowd,” meant to refer to “the common people,” but in reality a euphemism for the distracted, those who don’t follow politics except marginally, the easily panicked, the ignorant, and those most susceptible to being bought off and swayed by attack ads.
> 
> I’m not sure in which category I’d put a guy I know who’s always blowing hard about politicians, but who, a few weeks before the last election, referring to Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff, asked me: “Who’s this American the Liberals are running anyway?” I marvelled darkly at the effectiveness of Harperist propaganda.
> 
> All that being said, this is going to be the longest campaign ever and there’s still time — time, hopefully, so that it can be made clear even to the distracted what’s at stake, so that Harper can finally be dealt what this manipulative government, which he fancies as Canada’s new “natural governing party” (as though we need such a thing) truly deserves: not merely defeat, but a shattering of this party which is, in fact, an unnatural one-man would-be despotism.


----------



## eMacMan

rgray said:


> SURETTE: Harper banks on the distracted to pursue destructive spree | The Chronicle Herald


Thanks for posting that. Seldom do I see an article this long that I agree with every word, this one is the exception!


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Wheeeeee! So long harper thugs!

Key Conservative campaign players in the loop on Duffy plan in 2013 | National Newswatch


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## rgray

My attention was pointed to this partial summary of the 41st Parliamentary record of Harpo and his Con-men by a former Procedural Clerk of the House of Commons posted on Facebook:


> The 41st Parliament was the most dysfunctional in my memory. But before we forget, let us look back at the legislative record of this Parliament. It is a kind of hall of shame, with the Orwellian short titles of legislation which have become a hallmark of this government.
> Bill C-2. The Respect for Communities Act. This was the government's response to the Supreme Court overruling government attempts to shut down the INSITE safe injection site in Vancouver. The bill makes it all but impossible to open another such site -- though the Supreme Court would likely strike down this law as well.
> Bill C-4 The Economic Action Plan 2013 Act No.2. Remember the innumerable and never-ending Economic Action Plan ads? And yes, there was an Act No 1, as well as an Economic Action Plan 2014.
> Bill C-7 The Canadian Museum of History Act. The Museum of Civilization is no more.
> Bill C-12 The Drug-Free Prisons Act. The main purpose of this bill was to restrict prisoners' eligibility to the Conditional Release program.
> Bill C-23 The Fair Elections Act Expect longer than usual waits at polling places on Oct 19, as this Republican Parry inspired bill require voters to show proof of residence. And thanks to this legislation, today's launch of the longest election campaign in Canadian history allows the parties to each spend up to $50 million, rather than the previous $25 million, 50% of which will be subsidized by taxpayers.
> Bill C-24 Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act. This will allow the Minister (ie, a politician, not the courts) to strip Canadian citizenship from dual citizens accused of a crime.
> And from the 1st session of the 41st Parliament
> Bill S-4 The Safer Railways Act. Enacted in May 2012, this bill reduced the regulatory burden on railways. Almost exactly 2 years later, a train derailed and exploded in the middle of the night in Lac Megantic Quebec, incinerating 43 residents.
> Bill C-18 Marketing Freedom for Grain Farmers Act. This bill abolished the marketing monopoly of the Canadian Wheat Board, despite the results of a plebiscite in which a majority of grain framers opposed such action.
> Bill C-19 Ending the Long-Gun Registry Act Over-eager ministers clearly acted outside the law by acting before this measure had passed Parliament.
> Bill C-27 First Nations Financial Transparency Act. Classic blame-the-victim strategy for the government's underfunding of services to on-reserve Aboriginals.
> Bill C-38/Bill C-45 The Jobs and Growth Act. Yes, there were 2 of them, massive omnibus bills which modified all kinds of unrelated legislation. In previous Parliaments, attempts to introduce such kinds of dogs-breakfast bills were ruled out of order by the Speaker. Not this Parliament's speaker, the least impartial in my memory.
> And, for the grand prize for the most hideous Orwellian title of all:
> Bill S-7 The Zero Tolerance for Barbaric Cultural Practices Act. A pitiful piece of race-baiting, this bill outlaws practices which were already illegal.


----------



## Macfury

Ralph Surette posts nothing but anti-Harper drivel! I'm sure anyone supporting the other parties will find something to like in the columns of that old sourpuss!


----------



## Dr.G.

Baseball and politics intersect again in summer of 2015 - Politics - CBC News

An interesting article.


----------



## FeXL

fjnmusic said:


> I've endured a wage freeze for the last three years, a whopping 2% increase coming in September (while the cost of living has continued to climb), *while the provincial MLA's led by the PC gov't have seen a 71% wage increase between 2010 and 2015.*


M'bold.

So, the honourable thing for the current batch of Alberta MLA's would be to take a 71% wage cut, just to show their solidarity with the common man & as a protest against greed. Is that the thrust? 

I'd be all over that. I'd even post it as a positive (the second) in the Alberta NDP thread...


----------



## FeXL

Yep. Definitely prime ministerial material...

Twitter link.



> Taking questions, Trudeau promises to grow the economy "not from the top down, but from the heart outwards."


Funny, I always thought the economy grew from the bottom up. He's wrong on both accounts...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> M'bold.
> 
> So, the honourable thing for the current batch of Alberta MLA's would be to take a 71% wage cut, just to show their solidarity with the common man & as a protest against greed. Is that the thrust?
> 
> I'd be all over that. I'd even post it as a positive (the second) in the Alberta NDP thread...


fjn can correct me on this if I'm wrong--but I think he believes that their gluttony justifies higher teacher salaries.


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## FeXL

Macfury said:


> fjn can correct me on this if I'm wrong--but I think he believes that their gluttony justifies higher teacher salaries.


Well, that is certainly the connect that comes across...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> M'bold.
> 
> 
> 
> So, the honourable thing for the current batch of Alberta MLA's would be to take a 71% wage cut, just to show their solidarity with the common man & as a protest against greed. Is that the thrust?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be all over that. I'd even post it as a positive (the second) in the Alberta NDP thread...



Well we both know that's not going to happen. I offer these stats from my own personal experience to demonstrate how in Alberta it is not union workers, like myself, that are destroying the economy.


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## CubaMark

_*Now that's some creative electoral vandalism!*_


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> fjn can correct me on this if I'm wrong--but I think he believes that their gluttony justifies higher teacher salaries.



You are wrong and I will correct you. Under Ed Stelmach we had a fair agreement: a salary increase equal to what the average Albertan's earnings would be, no higher (cost of living increases, in other words) in exchange for five years of labor peace (no strikes). Redford followed that up with three years of zero followed by one year of 2%. In adjusted terms, our wages have fallen considerably behind where we were, while the MLA's have seen a 71% rise in wages over the same 5 years. All I want is enough to match the cost of living increase. 


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## CubaMark

*Jeeeebus, that was funny! Love the Doug Ford button...*

*Stephen Harper supporter hurls profanity at journalists over Duffy questions*



Some Tory supporters are apparently growing tired of seeing Conservative Leader Stephen Harper pressed by questions about Senator Mike Duffy's expense scandal. 

During a campaign stop in Toronto this morning, hecklers tried to shout down journalists posing questions to Harper about recent revelations at Duffy's criminal trial. After the event, one man expressed his frustrations to a group of reporters, calling one journalist a "lying piece of ****."

* * *​
...outside the room where Harper appeared, a man spoke with a group that included journalists from CBC News, CTV, The Toronto Sun and The Canadian Press. He said, "You guys and your fantasy scandals amount to zero."

He then accused the reporters of lying on their tax returns and said that the Duffy scandal amounts to the same thing. When asked how he could make such a claim, he answered, "Because you're a lying piece of ****."









(See the video at the link: CBC)


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## fjnmusic

Apparently, in his view, everyone lies on their tax forms. Perhaps it's the Conservative way and he assumes everyone works the same. In any event, this clip is pure gold and shows the veneer of political correctness has already worn off. And we're only like two weeks in to an eleven week campaign!! I see your true colors shining through....


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## BigDL

...and what got him so wound for sound? Why another 30 year Conservative supporter asking Harper for answers surrounding the PMO coverup. 

THE Old Angry White Man interrupted reporters from asking the disillusioned 30 year Conservative supporter more questions. Also the Angry Old White Man and is getting his 15 minutes of fame or whatever social media holds in store for him.

Seems the Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster (OGL) and his party are knocked off message track with this morning's rally and has put new life into OGL's defence of his non-answers...WAY TO GO BLUE TEAM . :lmao: :lmao: :clap:


----------



## SINC

Then of course, some people think this is PM material.


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## BigDL

Speaking of AOWM, how are you doing my old friend?


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## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Speaking of AOWM, how are you doing my old friend?


Did not know you were friendly with Mulcair!


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Then of course, some people think this is PM material.



So did he take the bribe? What was the bribe for? I prefer Trudeau over Mulcair federally, but I'd like to know more about this. Harper is a bad enough crook and we don't need more.


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## skippythebushkangaroo

What economic growth and renewal in Albertistan? #heavesteve

Flames announce details on new arena plans - Article - TSN


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What economic growth and renewal in Albertistan? #heavesteve
> 
> Flames announce details on new arena plans - Article - TSN


I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Did not know you were friendly with Mulcair!


Fly Non Sequitur often?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Fly Non Sequitur often?


Thought you were addressing Mulcair, the angriest and oldest of the white men running for PM! 



BigDL said:


> Speaking of AOWM, how are you doing my old friend?


----------



## rgray

*Harpo's delusion*


----------



## heavyall

I have to laugh at the people who still think that there is a scandal in this whole thing. The NDP stole $4 million and refuse to pay it back. There is still $40 million missing that the Liberals stole when they were last in power. But a Conservative senator gets $90k in expenses approved, and the PMO forces him to pay it back, and THAT is a scandal?


----------



## rgray

The actual scandal is not Puffy's expenses and who paid them.

*The scandal is Harpo's lying.*

He lied when he appointed Puffy as *senator for PEI*.

Puffy is not qualified under law to be a senator for PEI because he was not a resident.

Puffy is on record as having told Harpo so, but Puffy allowed himself to be the be 'Con'-ed (pun intended ) and so Harpo's *LIE* propogated.....

The way Harpo has run the PMO for more/less ten years with an iron hand top-down makes his assertion that he didn't know what arrangements had been made entirely lack credulity (another lie, if you will) because according to testimony to date just about everybody else in the Con-man camp seems to have been aware.....


----------



## heavyall

Duffy SHOULDN'T have been allowed to be the PEI Senator, but that absolutely was within the Senate rules at the time. There is no controversy there.

Harper ordered the Senate expenses to be audited (something no other PM has done before). When he found out that one of his own gamed the system, he had him kicked out of the Senate and ordered the expenses to be paid back. What's the scandal?


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Duffy SHOULDN'T have been allowed to be the PEI Senator, but that absolutely was within the Senate rules at the time. There is no controversy there.
> 
> Harper ordered the Senate expenses to be audited (something no other PM has done before). When he found out that one of his own gamed the system, he had him kicked out of the Senate and ordered the expenses to be paid back. What's the scandal?


Apparently this is the biggest issue for Liberals.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> I have to laugh at the people who still think that there is a scandal in this whole thing. The NDP stole $4 million and refuse to pay it back. There is still $40 million missing that the Liberals stole when they were last in power. But a Conservative senator gets $90k in expenses approved, and the PMO forces him to pay it back, and THAT is a scandal?





heavyall said:


> Duffy SHOULDN'T have been allowed to be the PEI Senator, but that absolutely was within the Senate rules at the time. There is no controversy there.
> 
> Harper ordered the Senate expenses to be audited (something no other PM has done before). When he found out that one of his own gamed the system, he had him kicked out of the Senate and ordered the expenses to be paid back. What's the scandal?


Embellishing, changing the chronology, and the being deliberately obtuse to the facts must be in the DNA of Conservatives and their supporters.


----------



## rgray

heavyall said:


> Duffy SHOULDN'T have been allowed to be the PEI Senator, but that absolutely was within the Senate rules at the time. There is no controversy there.
> 
> Harper ordered the Senate expenses to be audited (something no other PM has done before). When he found out that one of his own gamed the system, he had him kicked out of the Senate and ordered the expenses to be paid back. What's the scandal?


Those words could be right out of Harpo's mouth..... 

Keep on drinking that blue 'kool-aid', the end is in sight..... 

I can already hear the Con-men starting to sharpen their 'long knives'


----------



## heavyall

What is the scandal?


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> What is the scandal?


That's what I keep asking. Never got a solid answer. The closest I've gotten is that Prime Minister Harper should have known that taxpayers were being protected by having Duffy's expenses repaid with private funds.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> That's what I keep asking. Never got a solid answer. The closest I've gotten is that Prime Minister Harper should have known that taxpayers were being protected by having Duffy's expenses repaid with private funds.



Exactly. As opposed to Mac Harb (and several other LPC senators) who stole far more and refuse to pay it back, The NDP who stole $4 million and refuses to pay it back (Mulcair personally owes $400,000). The Liberal Party who stole $40 million the last time they were in power and still haven't paid it back.


----------



## BigDL

rgray said:


> Those words could be right out of Harpo's mouth.....
> 
> Keep on drinking that blue 'kool-aid', the end is in sight.....
> 
> I can already hear the Con-men starting to sharpen their 'long knives'


After reading recent posts, it seems Kool-Aid was their gateway substance, I fear they have spiralled into the hardcore use of Flavour-Aid.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Exactly. As opposed to Mac Harb (and several other LPC senators) who stole far more and refuse to pay it back, The NDP who stole $4 million and refuses to pay it back (Mulcair personally owes $400,000). The Liberal Party who stole $40 million the last time they were in power and still haven't paid it back.


All Mulcair was doing was hoping that Canadian taxpayers would foot the bill for his satellite staff of political hacks!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

View attachment 59345


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> The actual scandal is not Puffy's expenses and who paid them.
> 
> 
> 
> *The scandal is Harpo's lying.*
> 
> 
> 
> He lied when he appointed Puffy as *senator for PEI*.
> 
> 
> 
> Puffy is not qualified under law to be a senator for PEI because he was not a resident.
> 
> 
> 
> Puffy is on record as having told Harpo so, but Puffy allowed himself to be the be 'Con'-ed (pun intended ) and so Harpo's *LIE* propogated.....
> 
> 
> 
> The way Harpo has run the PMO for more/less ten years with an iron hand top-down makes his assertion that he didn't know what arrangements had been made entirely lack credulity (another lie, if you will) because according to testimony to date just about everybody else in the Con-man camp seems to have been aware.....



You are correct, sir. There is no way a control freak micromanager like Harper does not know absolutely everything that goes on in his office. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 59337



He does put forth a persuasive and carefully thought out argument.

View attachment 59353


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> There is no way a control freak micromanager like Harper does not know absolutely everything that goes on in his office.


OK. Lets say he did know.

Now, what is the scandal?


----------



## rgray

heavyall said:


> OK. Lets say he did know.


OOppps!! You must have missed dose of your blue kool-aid. Now you're allowing that HARPO DID KNOW!!!!!! 



heavyall said:


> Now, what is the scandal?


Harpo claims no knowledge of the matter.

To anyone on the planet who is NOT a supporter of the Con-man partly that is called *"LYING"!!!!!*


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> OOppps!! You must have missed dose of your blue kool-aid. Now you're allowing that HARPO DID KNOW!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Harpo claims no knowledge of the matter.
> 
> To anyone on the planet who is NOT a supporter of the Con-man partly that is called *"LYING"!!!!!*


rgray, take a deep breath--you are suffering from Harper Derangement Syndrome. It's OK not to vote for him, or like him, but these TA-DAH moments aren't exactly mindblowing stuff.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> You are correct, sir. There is no way a control freak micromanager like Harper does not know absolutely everything that goes on in his office.


Hmm, seems Mulcair is as bad or worse:

Thomas Mulcair Is A Ruthless Dictator Like Harper, Says Green MP Who Left The NDP

And then there's Justin:

Don Martin: Is Trudeau as controlling as Harper?


----------



## CubaMark

Don, what do you and your peeps think about this?

*Calgary Flames announce plan for $900M arena complex*



The group that owns the Calgary Flames hockey club and Stampeders football team has revealed plans for a $900-million project to build a new home for the two teams.

The plan calls for a 20,000-seat arena that would replace the Scotiabank Saddledome where the NHL Flames currently play.

It also includes a 30,000-seat indoor football stadium for the CFL Stampeders that would also serve as a fieldhouse.

* * *​
"It's not for the elites. It's not for the hockey players, not for the football players. It's for all of the citizens in our city," he said as he unveiled drawings that also showed several new condo and commercial towers and a hotel surrounding the new sports facilities.

* * *

The land will need to be decontaminated as it was the site of a creosote wood-treatment plant until the 1960s.

King said the project will finally provide the impetus for a group effort to get the land cleaned up. "Nothing good is easy. But doing nothing is really easy. And this is the antithesis of doing nothing, I assure you," he said.

The plan calls for the project to be funded through a *$250-million ticket tax, a $240-million community levy, $200 million from team ownership and $200 million from city taxpayers* for the fieldhouse.

* * *​
Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi said in a written statement that the proposal is intriguing, but he said it raises several concerns.

He says the city's capital funds are fully allocated through 2018, and while a fieldhouse is a high priority, there is no money set aside for it. It's also unclear if the city will be asked to provide up-front financing for the $250-million ticket tax, and how the land decontamination work will be funded.

"Therefore, there are very significant requirements for public funding beyond the fieldhouse funding, and there is currently no money," he said.

"I have said for a long time — and continue to strongly believe — that *public money must be for public benefit and not private profit*. The question for Council, the ownership group, and all Calgarians is whether this proposal meets that test."​
(CBC)


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Don, what do you and your peeps think about this?


I very much doubt that the provincial government, NDP or not, will gift any money to private enterprise and espcially not to the NHL. Should they do so with the Calgary project, they woud be honour bound to pick up an appropriate part of the tab for the already financed and now half built new NHL arena in Edmonton. Further, when they were the official opposition, they as a party opposed any provincial funding for the Edmonton arena which the Tories ultimately turned down as well.

But make no mistake that Ken King, the CEO of the Flames, who also own the CFL Stampeders will not schmooze his way into the necessary circles to make every effort to get his hands on those grants. King and I, along with Stamps CEO Gord Norrie all worked together in the media in the 80s and 90s and I know his tactics well.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, the shovels will be in the ground tomorrow ...... Seat Licenses and such will pave the way. In this country not building a hockey rink is like
peaing on the flag. Just ask the Mayor of Quebec City......


----------



## CubaMark

Halifax is (still) having the same (heated) debate. The province is ageing rapidly, losing employed taxpayers and a shrinking population... yet there are folks out there screaming to the heavens that a stadium + CFL team will be the economy's saviour. They would do well to heed this warning:

_“Independent academic research studies consistently conclude that new stadiums and arenas have no measurable effect on the level of real income or employment in the metropolitan areas in which they are located. Feasibility studies for professional sports facilities often fail to account for the substitution effect. Individuals generally maintain a consistent level of entertainment spending so money spent on sporting events typically comes at the expense of cash spent in restaurants, on travel, and at movie theaters.”

“…sports crowd out other types of economic activity. The physical infrastructure of a city, whether it’s a private hotel or a public airport, cannot abruptly increase capacity. As a consequence, sports fans tend to displace other visitors. As a case in point, Robert Baade and Victor Matheson at the College of the Holy Cross have examined the number of visitors to Beijing during the Summer Olympics of 2008. Tourist arrivals for the month of August did not fluctuate year-over-year and the number of visitors to Beijing actually declined on an annual basis. Similar results can be found for Olympic Games held in the US and for such sporting events as the Super Bowl.”_

(UBS via Scribd)​


----------



## Macfury

Stadiums are political trophies--nothing more. Total private funding should be the model.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Stadiums are political trophies--nothing more. Total private funding should be the model.


 *Thanks for your cash, invested in this venture.*

Interesting what do you think of this *"Lying piece of $#¡†"*










CBCNews said:


> Moncton MP Robert Goguen has suggested the funding of infrastructure projects amounts of federal financial support for the downtown centre. (Marc Genuist / CBC)


Moncton Metro Centre Approved with Federal, Provincial and Municipal Funding

Moncton votes to proceed with Downtown Centre project | CTV Atlantic News


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> *Thanks for your cash, invested in this venture.*
> 
> Interesting what do you think of this *"Lying piece of $#¡†"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moncton Metro Centre Approved with Federal, Provincial and Municipal Funding
> 
> Moncton votes to proceed with Downtown Centre project | CTV Atlantic News



I don't support it--but neither did I support you when you were begging the Feds to fix your li'l chunk of New Brunswick railroad, you hypocritical "piece of $#¡†""


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I don't support it--but neither did I support you when you were begging the Feds to fix your li'l chunk of New Brunswick railroad, you hypocritical "piece of $#¡†""


:clap::clap:

The piece of "railroad," by the way, the term in Canada is railway. The section of railway is a vital piece of transportation infrastructure for the population in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

I know you would prefer tax money be transferred to Ontario and spent on the highways you travel. 

If you come to New Brunswick and travel the TransCanada Highway I shall help pay the tolls on the private sections of the TransCanada and other private toll highways in this province for you, would that cheer you up?


----------



## Macfury

Typical leftist—you've got your big fat hand out ready to collect alms for your pet projects and then pi s s and moan when someone else does the same.



BigDL said:


> :clap::clap:
> 
> The piece of "railroad," by the way, the term in Canada is railway. The section of railway is a vital piece of transportation infrastructure for the population in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.
> 
> I know you would prefer tax money be transferred to Ontario and spent on the highways you travel.
> 
> If you come to New Brunswick and travel the TransCanada Highway I shall help pay the tolls on the private sections of the TransCanada and other private toll highways in this province for you, would that cheer you up?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Typical leftist—you've got your big fat hand out ready to collect alms for your pet projects and then pi s s and moan when someone else does the same.


Sorry for catching you, with your hand out, *for your pet projects*.

For the record I think the Moncton Metro Centre or whatever it shall be called, is a gigantic white elephant project, that should not have receive any public money. 

If it is not viable project for the private sector to finance, build and operate then it is not a viable project.


----------



## Macfury

Just like that chunk of railroad.



BigDL said:


> If it is not viable project for the private sector to finance, build and operate then it is not a viable project.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Stadiums are political trophies--nothing more. Total private funding should be the model.


Mark the calendar. We agree on something. :clap:


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> OK. Lets say he did know.
> 
> Now, what is the scandal?


The scandal would be lying under oath if he lies on the stand. Perjury. The same thing they impeached Bill Clinton for.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> The scandal would be lying under oath if he lies on the stand. Perjury. The same thing they impeached Bill Clinton for.


I had not realized the PM was testifying at the trial.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> The scandal would be lying under oath if he lies on the stand. Perjury. The same thing they impeached Bill Clinton for.


So literally nothing at all then. OK.


----------



## MacGuiver

I wish we had a similar Liberal scandal where Dalton McGuinty was found guilty of screwing Ontarians for $1.1 billion to win a riding in an election and some Nigel Wright wannabe liberal payed the debt with his own money. 
Now that wouldn't be as scandalous as the Duffy affair, especially to the media party, but it would be fun to watch.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> I wish we had a similar Liberal scandal where Dalton McGuinty was found guilty of screwing Ontarians for $1.1 billion to win a riding in an election and some Nigel Wright wannabe liberal payed the debt with his own money.
> Now that wouldn't be as scandalous as the Duffy affair, especially to the media party, but it would be fun to watch.


Apparently what makes these things scandalous is ensuring that the taxpayer is compensated!


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> OK. Lets say he did know.
> 
> Now, what is the scandal?


Here is an analysis of the scandal that OGL = EPIC FAIL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is an EPIC FAILURE) is trying to stifle Good Government for now. By not providing "Peace, Order and Good Government" the Harper Government is an epic failure.

Let Kevin Page educate you regarding the scandal of this government. Lousy Government.

Kevin Page Accountability

With the ideology of OGL = EPIC FAIL's at purposely undermining Good Government.


----------



## Macfury

Didn't they give your province cash to fix that chunk of railroad?



BigDL said:


> Here is an analysis of the scandal that OGL = EPIC FAIL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is an EPIC FAILURE) is trying to stifle Good Government for now. By not providing "Peace, Order and Good Government" the Harper Government is an epic failure.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

Apparently this asshat has been identified as Earl Cowan, the man who yelled _"Go back to China"_ at Olivia Chow during a political event in 2014. So he's not only angry, conservative, oblivious as to the issues surrounding the Duffy Trial ('tax returns'??), he's also a pretty obvious bigot. Nice representative of Conservative Party membership, eh?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Apparently this asshat has been identified as Earl Cowan, the man who yelled _"Go back to China"_ at Olivia Chow during a political event in 2014. So he's not only angry, conservative, oblivious as to the issues surrounding the Duffy Trial ('tax returns'??), he's also a pretty obvious bigot. Nice representative of Conservative Party membership, eh?


I would think you wouldn't stoop to that, CM. Do you think we couldn't cherry pick idiot members from any party?

Do better.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Didn't they give your province cash to fix that chunk of railroad?


My recollection is that a publicly traded company Canadian National *RAILWAYS* received government monies for track maintenace/repair. 

A company that in the third quarter last year that made 41¢ of profit on each dollar of revenue. In addition to OGL = EPIC FAIL's (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is an EPIC FAILURE) Government gave Corporation like CNRAILWAYS a bigger tax break 'cause you know time are tough the poor ol' corporations.



FinancialPost said:


> CN’s operating ratio, a measure of efficiency, improved one percentage point to an all-time low of 58.8%.


CNRailways Profits Up

CNRailways Profits Spike

Why don't you review the original discussion rather than having me google information for you. Are you such a slugabed you can not look up information for yourself?


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> I would think you wouldn't stoop to that, CM. Do you think we couldn't cherry pick idiot members from any party?
> 
> Do better.


Yeah I shake my head when NDPer's and Libs express their shock and horror at this guys foul mouth ranting. I guess they've never attended a lefty rally of any sort? Are they honestly proposing with a straight face that their fellow travelers are above this?
We could crash the server with foul mouthed obscenity of the political nature from the mouths of lefties.


----------



## Macfury

That's what I recall. The money should ever have been earmarked for that project. 



BigDL said:


> My recollection is that a publicly traded company Canadian National *RAILWAYS* received government monies for track maintenace/repair.
> 
> A company that in the third quarter last year that made 41¢ of profit on each dollar of revenue. In addition to OGL = EPIC FAIL's (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is an EPIC FAILURE) Government gave Corporation like CNRAILWAYS a bigger tax break 'cause you know time are tough the poor ol' corporations.
> 
> 
> 
> CNRailways Profits Up
> 
> CNRailways Profits Spike
> 
> Why don't you review the original discussion rather than having me google information for you. Are you such a slugabed you can not look up information for yourself?


----------



## arminia

81-year-old voter takes 'Defeat Harper' message to Winnipeg streets - Manitoba - CBC News

I was a real strong supporter of the Progressive Conservatives, but when Brian Mulroney was in, that was the end of my connection with them. Next to Harper, Mulroney is an angel," said Routley.


----------



## FeXL

That's exactly the issue, though. He's got nothing better...



Macfury said:


> Do better.


----------



## FeXL

Like, say, this...

Liberal candidate wished Israel supporter had been aborted with coat hanger

Apparently she's since withdrawn her candidacy.

Where's the hue & the cry from the left? If this had been a Conservative candidate, can you imagine the response?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Like, say, this...
> 
> Liberal candidate wished Israel supporter had been aborted with coat hanger
> 
> Apparently she's since withdrawn her candidacy.
> 
> Where's the hue & the cry from the left? If this had been a Conservative candidate, can you imagine the response?


And none of us are stooping so low as to suggest this is a typical Liberal.


----------



## Macfury

Why is this national news? Because a senior is carrying a sign? The media remains consistently unfair to Conservatives.



arminia said:


> 81-year-old voter takes 'Defeat Harper' message to Winnipeg streets - Manitoba - CBC News
> 
> I was a real strong supporter of the Progressive Conservatives, but when Brian Mulroney was in, that was the end of my connection with them. Next to Harper, Mulroney is an angel," said Routley.


----------



## FeXL

(From the Place Your Bets... thread)



MacGuiver said:


> Duffy scammed us for $90,000 and the Conservatives even payed it back. I wish that was the case in other scandals.
> The media has been relentless in their attempts to make political hay from this "scandal" meanwhile its crickets over NDP bilking tax payers for $2.75 million in salaries for satellite offices. Not a word of Justin Trudeau making hundreds of thousands charging speaking fees (to charities of all groups) all the while he was being paid as a member of parliament and absent from parliament.


This.

While no gov't malfeasance is acceptable, it's also a matter of scale. The Libs & NDP have far more, & larger, skeletons in their closets than the Conservatives, yet the drum we constantly hear beating is the anti-Harper one.

I guess when they're "your" candidate or party it's alright...


----------



## MacGuiver

FeXL said:


> Like, say, this...
> 
> Liberal candidate wished Israel supporter had been aborted with coat hanger
> 
> Apparently she's since withdrawn her candidacy.
> 
> Where's the hue & the cry from the left? If this had been a Conservative candidate, can you imagine the response?


The inconsistency in the application of the lefts (and the media party) moral outrage are par for the course.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Why is this national news? Because a senior is carrying a sign? The media remains consistently unfair to Conservatives.


Just more publicly funded campaigning on behalf of the CBCs parties of choice.


----------



## rgray

MacGuiver said:


> The inconsistency in the application of the lefts (and the media party) moral outrage are par for the course.


Just as it is from the Con-men on the right - just a different direction.....


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Where's the hue & the cry from the left? If this had been a Conservative candidate, can you imagine the response?


Yes, because she's exactly the same angry teenager today that she was then.... :roll eyes:

And of course, don't bother mentioning the context in which the tweets were sent. I could pull some real winners out of ehMac threads for some notable characters here as well...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> That's exactly the issue, though. He's got nothing better...


Hey, *I* didn't bring Earl Cowan to national notoriety - he did that all by himself.

BTW, how are those cow farts treating you, FeXL?


----------



## FeXL

More or less where I'm at.

Colby Cosh: If there’s a scandal in the Duffy affair, why can’t I spot it?



> No doubt I am missing some nuances. I’m sure at least one of foregoing paragraphs is idiotic in some regard. But no one has done a very good job of setting me straight, and *if the Duffy trial is to have an influence on the election, that will take simpler explanations, tailored to listeners paying even less attention than me.*


M'bold.

Yep. Just don't get the fascination with this one...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I would think you wouldn't stoop to that, CM. Do you think we couldn't cherry pick idiot members from any party?
> 
> 
> 
> Do better.



Wait a minute. I thought the Conservative machine carefully screens and approves every single person that appears at its campaign gatherings. This guy would meet their standard in that case.


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----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> Wait a minute. I thought the Conservative machine carefully screens and approves every single person that appears at its campaign gatherings. This guy would meet their standard in that case.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 :clap::clap::clap:

Stereotypes exist for a reason, but when the stereotypical archetype is vetted and approved by Conservatives, well...


----------



## MacGuiver

fjnmusic said:


> Wait a minute. I thought the Conservative machine carefully screens and approves every single person that appears at its campaign gatherings. This guy would meet their standard in that case.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think they have to do that to keep liberal loons from shouting obscenities or attempting to assault the PM.


----------



## FeXL

I'm sure she's grown up so much since then. No, serious... :lmao:

Interesting how you utilize context as justification for hate speech, no matter what the circumstances.

I hope that she's learned something about the permanence of the intertubes from this little exercise. However, I doubt it. That said, I think she would have made an excellent Liberal candidate... 



CubaMark said:


> Yes, because she's exactly the same angry teenager today that she was then.... :roll eyes:
> 
> And of course, don't bother mentioning the context in which the tweets were sent. I could pull some real winners out of ehMac threads for some notable characters here as well...


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> I'm sure she's grown up so much since then. No, serious... :lmao:
> 
> Interesting how you utilize context as justification for hate speech, no matter what the circumstances.
> 
> I hope that she's learned something about the permanence of the intertubes from this little exercise. However, I doubt it. That said, I think she would have made an excellent Liberal candidate...


 :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 59417


You're a Mac guy, skippy, can't you fix the PhotoShop?


----------



## fjnmusic

And the hits just keep coming.









http://globalnews.ca/news/2174181/harper-supporter-memes/


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----------



## Macfury

I's pretty sad that they're making fun of his disability. They should lose the walking cane.


----------



## MacGuiver

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHjU3x8Sdg"][/ame]Maybe the old lad was yelling at Lefty Toronto Star Columnist Catherine Porter who was recently caught red handed by Ezra Levant being a lying piece of ___ in her column.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHjU3x8Sdg[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

I would vote for the old guy over Mulcair any day!


----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver said:


> Maybe the old lad was yelling at Lefty Toronto Star Columnist Catherine Porter who was recently caught red handed by Ezra Levant being a lying piece of ___ in her column.


Watched the first 6 minutes of the vid. Couldn't go any further, the gorge was rising in my throat.

Typical low information voter, doesn't have a clue about facts, figures, general knowledge, anything. She's repeating talking points she's picked up on FB & other social media sources of disinformation & doesn't have a clue what the reality of the situation actually is.

This is exactly the type of voter that the Libs & NDP pander to. The unfortunate truth is that, far too frequently, it works to their advantage...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I's pretty sad that they're making fun of his disability. They should lose the walking cane.



I didn't realize that yelling angry obscenities was classed as a disability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Wait a minute. I thought the Conservative machine carefully screens and approves every single person that appears at its campaign gatherings.


There's no screening process to speak of. Anyone interested in going can put their name down.

Latest | Conservative Party of Canada -

See that "stay-up-to-date" form on the left? Fill that out, and you'll get invited the next time he's in town. That's literally the full extent of the "approval" process.


----------



## Macfury

Since I mentioned the large cane, you're just being an ass.



fjnmusic said:


> I didn't realize that yelling angry obscenities was classed as a disability.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> There's no screening process to speak of. Anyone interested in going can put their name down.
> 
> Latest | Conservative Party of Canada -
> 
> See that "stay-up-to-date" form on the left? Fill that out, and you'll get invited the next time he's in town. That's literally the full extent of the "approval" process.


"Prime Minister Stephen Harper landed outside the border community of Amherst Aug. 16 for a rally to prop up incumbent Scott Armstrong and stoke the flames of Conservative party-faithful’s support for his government’s record. The rally, held at the Cumberland North Academy in Brookdale, saw several hundred participants register for the opportunity to hear the man who has held the role of leading the nation for nine years and plans to hang on to the role for five more."

Here's the PM: Harper speaks to supporters in northern Nova Scotia - Regional - Nova News Now

This was the hardest "ticket in town" to get "accepted" to attend this event. Even long-time Tory party members were not "invited". I urged my wife to apply for an invite, since she is still in their data bank as being a long-time conservative from Calgary South-West, but she did not want to take the chance of getting an invite and then not attending.


----------



## heavyall

Dr.G. said:


> This was the hardest "ticket in town" to get "accepted" to attend this event. Even long-time Tory party members were not "invited". I urged my wife to apply for an invite, since she is still in their data bank as being a long-time conservative from Calgary South-West, but she did not want to take the chance of getting an invite and then not attending.


That was likely a space issue -- more people wanted to go than there was room for. When Harper was here in Winnipeg last week, I was emailed an invite, and I was able to get tickets for two friends as well. No vetting whatsoever.


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> That was likely a space issue -- more people wanted to go than there was room for. When Harper was here in Winnipeg last week, I was emailed an invite, and I was able to get tickets for two friends as well. No vetting whatsoever.


Nope. They had to bring in staffers and volunteers to "beef" up the crowd. They were so particular that there was not a big turnout, much to the chagrin to PM Harper. He is trying to make in-roads into NS, and missed a perfect opportunity for a good photo op and announcement.


----------



## heavyall

Dr.G. said:


> Nope. They had to bring in staffers and volunteers to "beef" up the crowd. They were so particular that there was not a big turnout, much to the chagrin to PM Harper. He is trying to make in-roads into NS, and missed a perfect opportunity for a good photo op and announcement.


Somebody messed something up then. I've been to a few of these events, and that is not how it works!


----------



## fjnmusic

The politburo has concerns that some public service workers may hold their own views contrary to what the party has stated. 

http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/new...y-government-trying-to-stifle-political-.html


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----------



## Macfury

The public service is largely comprised of left-leaning slackers--that's why it's so large and overpaid and achieves so little. However, they need to follow the rules regarding public engagement. They can't criticize the government while identifying themselves as public service employees--that's simply SOP.




fjnmusic said:


> The politburo has concerns that some public service workers may hold their own views contrary to what the party has stated.
> 
> http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/new...y-government-trying-to-stifle-political-.html
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Funny thing is Harper had the same confidence in Nigel. 

The Ray Novak countdown is on. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ays-he-still-has-confidence-in-chief-of-staff


----------



## SINC

NDP accused of blurring lines by providing free office space to union | CTV News

Thomas Mulcair Is A Ruthless Dictator Like Harper, Says Green MP Who Left The NDP

Update: Liberal candidate under fire for offensive tweets | Calgary Herald

Canada regains title as most reputable nation in the world despite Harper derangement frenzy | Financial Post


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Priceless stuff this week.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And the hits keep coming. Yup Harper appointee and molester of underage girls "Dandy Don" caught again. Time to toss this lot.


Senator led delegation that included his own business partner | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And the hits keep coming. Yup Harper appointee and molester of underage girls "Dandy Don" caught again. Time to toss this lot.
> 
> 
> Senator led delegation that included his own business partner | Ottawa Citizen


Did you miss the word "alledged" in that article skippy?


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Did you miss the word "alledged" in that article skippy?


Close enough for some to be used to malign Harper...


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Did you miss the word "alledged" in that article skippy?


No, he did not.


----------



## SINC

Not sure why anyone bothers to worry about Skippy / AKA Jimbo's election predictions. Guy's been wrong with every prediction he ever made in his years on ehmac.


----------



## fjnmusic

Methinks the ladies doth protest too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/mike-duffy-trial-benjamin-perrin-testifies-1.3198897

My thinking is Perrin could possibly be the leak in the PMO. Deep throat so to speak. 

Wonderful trial.


----------



## Macfury

Perrin believed that the PMO possibly knew...


Weak stuff.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Excellent. The jingoist succession plan commences. Sharpen the knives!

Rob Ford Says Brother Would Run If Canada's Harper Steps Down - Bloomberg Business


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Excellent. The jingoist succession plan commences. Sharpen the knives!
> 
> Rob Ford Says Brother Would Run If Canada's Harper Steps Down - Bloomberg Business


Rob Ford says brother Doug Ford would run for head of federal Conservative Party - The Globe and Mail

I was just about to post this as well. Great minds think alike. 

Still, I would want Harper over Ford if I had to choose.


----------



## Macfury

It would be tough to vote for Doug Ford, but the lack of talent in the other two major parties would compel me to.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It would be tough to vote for Doug Ford, but the lack of talent in the other two major parties would compel me to.


Compel you to what????????????????? Don't leave us hanging. Compel you to run as a candidate yourself? Form a new party? Leave Canada for the US???


----------



## BigDL

> It would be tough to vote for Doug Ford, but the lack of talent in the other two major parties would compel me to.


Presently, which device, do you suppose Jason Kenney might use to sharpen the long knife?


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Presently, which device, do you suppose Jason Kenney might use to sharpen the long knife?


"Et tu, Brute?"


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Presently, which device, do you suppose Jason Kenney might use to sharpen the long knife?


Long knives are always sharp, kept waiting in a closet.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Long knives are always sharp, kept waiting in a closet.


XX)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The garage dwelller it is then. Off with 'is 'ead.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Long knives are always sharp, kept waiting in a closet.




Good to know. Not having any experience in the matter I wouldn't know. In the collective experience, one is expects to support each other and *watch each others backs.*

An injury to one is an injury to all.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Good to know. Not having any experience in the matter I wouldn't know. In the collective experience, one is expects to support each other and *watch each others backs.*
> 
> An injury to one is an injury to all.


Theoretically that is the collective. In reality, some collectives have been among the meanest back-stabbingest organizations on record!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Maggie Atwood on "Hairper" -

http://thewalrus.ca/stephen-harpers-hair-problem/


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Good to know. Not having any experience in the matter I wouldn't know. In the collective experience, one is expects to support each other and *watch each others backs.*
> 
> An injury to one is an *injury to all*.


In the collective experience, I personally was assaulted in a back alley by two union members for speaking out against joining their union to my fellow non union employees when the two were allowed into our shop to speak to us about joining their gang of thugs.

They were run out of town by the police and the vote held was 100% to reject the union once their tactics were made known to our staff.

I have never had use for any union or any union promoter since that day.

I guess that* injury to all* applies to non members as well.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nice article that sums up a key moment in the Harper/PMO scandal -

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-payback-plan/article26059770/?service=mobile


----------



## Dr.G.

Editorial Cartoon | The Chronicle Herald

Cute.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Those crazy artists. I notice they aren't placing dildos with Mulcair, Trudeau or May. Just like the media. Tsk Tsk. 

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/this...-and-its-spectacular?utm_source=vicetwitterca


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Those crazy artists. I notice they aren't placing dildos with Mulcair, Trudeau or May. Just like the media. Tsk Tsk.
> 
> This Montreal Artist is Putting Dildos in Stephen Harper?s Hands and It?s Spectacular | VICE | Canada


My, how intelligent. Shows who the real wanker is for sure.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> My, how intelligent. Shows who the real wanker is for sure.


Skippy's company probably sucks the teat of the government. Been a long drought.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> My, how intelligent. Shows who the real wanker is for sure.



Or it shows who's holding the real wanker. 😝


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Nobody here is holding your wanker, fjn. You're daydreaming.



fjnmusic said:


> Or it shows who's holding the real wanker. 😝
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Editorial Cartoon | The Chronicle Herald


That was a good one, Dr.G!

And now, this:


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> That was a good one, Dr.G!
> 
> And now, this:


:greedy:


----------



## Dr.G.

Gone but not forgotten.


----------



## Macfury

I'm sorry that Layton's epitaph was so trite. He was an interesting man, although I disagreed with him almost 100% of the time.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I'm sorry that Layton's epitaph was so trite. He was an interesting man, although I disagreed with him almost 100% of the time.


Trite to some ........... inspirational to others. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Trite to some ........... inspirational to others. Paix, mon ami.


It reads like a Hallmark Card to me, Dr. G. But those cards have been known to inspire some.

It's a shame that Mulcair's leadership is marked by his anger and vindictiveness.


----------



## FeXL

Nice... (video at link with language warning)

Rob "F*** Harper" Wells is a free speech hypocrite -- and so are his defenders on the Left



> An Edmonton man named Rob Wells has been fined for having a large, foul-mouthed anti-Harper sign stuck to his car's rear view mirror.


So, there's a time & a place. I have a few patches on my riding vest that are inappropriate for younger children & won't wear it to my kids' school, the grocery store or anywhere else I'd expect young children to be. That's just common courtesy & common sense, something this idiot has a severe shortage of.

While I don't necessarily agree with the charges, how about a little discretion, Rob? And, to the rest of the idiots who are dressing their children up in clothing with 4 letter swear words on them, you should be reported to childhood services...


----------



## FeXL

Yeah, there's a surprise.

Liberal candidate admits he broke spending laws to win nomination



> A Liberal candidate has admitted he broke election spending laws during his fight to win a bitterly contested nomination battle in the Toronto-area riding of Mississauga-Lakeshore.
> 
> In a compliance agreement struck with the commissioner of elections, Sven Spengemann admits he personally paid for some campaign expenses, which legally should have been paid only by his financial agent.


Another story you won't find on the CBC...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Nobody here is holding your wanker, fjn. You're daydreaming.



Stop talking about my wanker, Macfury. You're starting to make me feel uncomfortable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Yeah, there's a surprise.
> 
> Liberal candidate admits he broke spending laws to win nomination
> 
> 
> 
> Another story you won't find on the CBC...


Yep, CBC-TV are the masters of censorship by omission.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray

..


----------



## Macfury

I don't think the illustrator understands the Penrose Triangle.



rgray said:


> Harper and terrorism


This is the sales page of a cartoon site.


----------



## FeXL

If the illustrator doesn't have a clew about climate science, then why should I trust his views on anything else?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> If the illustrator doesn't have a clew about climate science, then why should I trust his views on anything else?


If a commenter on an internet forum doesn't have a *clue* about the English language, then why should I trust his views on anything else?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> If a commenter on an internet forum doesn't have a *clue* about the English language, then why should I trust his views on anything else?


That is the proper English spelling. Like "tyre". Look it up.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 59585


Yep. And either digitized the contents or moved the collections elsewhere. Next?


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 59593


Fix the Photoshop, Skip. You used "as" twice.


----------



## rgray

...


----------



## Macfury

removed


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> rgray, Raeside wants you to negotiate _a fee_ for placing those cartoons on the web--they aren't free.


Removed


----------



## FeXL

Good enough for Mark Twain, good enough for me.

'Sides, you don't trust my views on anything anyway, no matter how I spell clue/clew. Purdy sure that ain't got nothing to do with my spellin' ability...



CubaMark said:


> If a commenter on an internet forum doesn't have a *clue* about the English language, then why should I trust his views on anything else?


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Good enough for Mark Twain, good enough for me.
> 
> 'Sides, you don't trust my views on anything anyway, no matter how I spell clue/clew. Purdy sure that ain't got nothing to do with my spellin' ability...


Not sure what you're trying to say. 

<sarcasm> As you have counselled others, if you were going for irony please use tags. <end sarcasm>


----------



## FeXL

BigDL said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say.


Me, either. First or second paragraph?


----------



## BigDL

So you agree, *your comments * have as much validity, as mine! beejacon


----------



## FeXL

No, I'm telling you I don't understand what your original query was in regards to. I'm seeking clarification. The first paragraph of my post or the second?

Get over yourself.

Not only that, but I have never counselled anyone to use irony tags, neither on these boards nor anywhere else...


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> No, I'm telling you I don't understand what your original query was in regards to. I'm seeking clarification. The first paragraph of my post or the second?
> 
> Get over yourself.
> 
> Not only that, but I have never counselled anyone to use irony tags, neither on these boards nor anywhere else...


There ya go agin! Agreed!


----------



## FeXL

Man, the east coast drugs have got something special in them, don't they...


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Man, the east coast drugs have got something special in them, don't they...


 Acme or is it an excelsior?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> That is the proper English spelling. Like "tyre". Look it up.


Not for the past half-century, it hasn't. I'm sure it's possible that FeXL is a 90-year-old immigrant from the British Isles, but somehow I doubt it.... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Not for the past half-century, it hasn't. I'm sure it's possible that FeXL is a 90-year-old immigrant from the British Isles, but somehow I doubt it.... :lmao:


Right, so you were criticizing the spelling because you thought it was 50 years old? Listen, talk to me after _Fear the Walking Dead_.


----------



## FeXL

Jeezuz... Am I the only one on these boards whose read _Tom Sawyer_?

Second last paragraph.

Once again, unbelievable...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Right, so you were criticizing he spelling because you thought it was 50 years old? Listen, talk to me after _Fear the Walking Dead_.



Good point there. Talking Dead starts at 6 too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

*Crime Sinister Harpo economic "plan"*


----------



## rgray

Harper Government Trashes Another Federal Science Library


----------



## rgray

The Duffy trial: Senate scandal testimony threatens Harper's fortunes among soft Conservative voters : Angus Reid Institute


> Key Findings:
> 
> Three-in-five Canadians (59%) say they don’t believe Stephen Harper’s version of events
> More generally, a majority of all uncommitted voters (59%) reject the Prime Minister’s account
> When asked to choose between framing the Duffy trial as a “distraction” from other, more important campaign issues or framing it as evidence of a deeper scandal that will become a key issue in the campaign, fully three-fifths (61%) off all respondents choose the latter
> Among those who see a deeper scandal than what has surfaced already are almost a quarter (23%) of leaning but as yet uncommitted CPC voters
> That said, the Duffy affair may not yet be a deciding issue in the campaign:
> More than seven-in-ten (72%) of all respondents who don’t believe Harper say the scandal is “outweighed by other election issues”


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> Harper Government Trashes Another Federal Science Library


Research library's closure shows Harper government targets science 'at every turn,' union says - Calgary - CBC News

*Union SAYS*



> "The Agriculture and Agri-Food Lethbridge Research Centre is not closing," Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada spokesman Patrick Girard wrote in an email to CBC News.
> 
> "The Government of Canada is modernizing the delivery of library services by moving towards a digital service delivery model, while keeping all materials of business value to all employees, including our scientists. This will allow for easier and cost efficient search and access to library resources by employees, no matter their location."


----------



## FeXL

There ya go, letting facts get in the way of yet another leftist rant...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> There ya go, letting facts get in the way of yet another leftist rant...


Really now, did you expect anything different from the CBC or the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada?


----------



## CubaMark

_*There's dirty pool, and then there's outright lying and deception. *_

*Ruby Sahota, Liberal Candidate, Incensed At Tory Parm Gill's Name Game*​

_Conservative incumbent Parm Gill, left, is running against Liberal Ruby Sahota, right, in Brampton North._​
A Liberal candidate is accusing a Conservative MP of lying about her views in a pamphlet in which he attacks a former political foe with the same first name.

*Parm Gill*, the Tory incumbent in the hotly contested Greater Toronto Area riding of Brampton North, sent a letter to constituents — at taxpayers’ expense — in July slamming his opponent “*Ruby*” for championing an expensive policy that neither the Liberal party nor the current Liberal challenger supports.

“Do you support *Ruby* and the Liberal policy of giving pension to people who have only been in Canada for 3 years and will cost Canadians $700 million per year,” asks Gill in his letter.

“Ruby and the Liberals have been pushing to lower the residency requirement for Old Age Security (OAS) from 10 years to 3 years for new immigrants,” he asserts. “Granting OAS to individuals who have spent just 3 years in Canada, only benefits those who came to Canada late in their lives.”

Gill is facing off against Liberal candidate *Ruby Sahota*. But the Ruby who championed that policy was the former Liberal MP, *Ruby Dhalla*. Dhalla introduced a bill, C-428, in 2009 that sought to reduce eligibility requirement for monthly Old Age Security pensions. 

The bill was not supported by the Liberals — their pension critic opposed it at the time — and it was never moved or studied.
(HuffPo)​
Dhalla's bill-that-never-was also spawned an incessant circulation on Facebook of an adaptation that continues to purport that immigrants to Canada are given thousands of dollars, free housing, a chauffeured Rolls-Royce, back massages, Manolo Blanik shoes, shares in Apple, etc. upon arrival at the Canadian border. (exaggerating a wee bit for emphasis, obviously). It also usually includes reference to how poor are Senior's pensions, or military service paycheques, etc., designed to "get yer dander up". Nevermind that it's a distorted non-issue.


----------



## Macfury

Yawn. CM's outrage gene seems to activate only when he can nail Conservatives.


----------



## Macfury

Canada's recession mild, and recovery will be, too, Bloomberg report says | Toronto Star



> Canada’s economy will rebound from the “technical” recession that took place earlier this year, a monthly survey shows.
> 
> Gross domestic product will expand 2 per cent in the third quarter, from a 0.8-per-cent shrinkage in the second, according to median of 18 forecasts in a Bloomberg survey of economists. All but three respondents said the economy contracted in the first half, meeting the simple definition of a recession.
> 
> “It’s a very watered-down recession,” said Tim Quinlan, an economist at Wells Securities LLC in Charlotte, N.C. “I don’t worry about this being the beginning of a long protracted period of negative economic growth.”






rgray said:


>


_The Tyee_? Now that's bottom-feeding!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Yawn. CM's outrage gene seems to activate only when he can nail Conservatives.


Yet he's quick to point out when someone does the same to the left...


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> _*There's dirty pool, and then there's outright lying and deception. *_
> 
> *Ruby Sahota, Liberal Candidate, Incensed At Tory Parm Gill's Name Game*​
> 
> _Conservative incumbent Parm Gill, left, is running against Liberal Ruby Sahota, right, in Brampton North._​
> A Liberal candidate is accusing a Conservative MP of lying about her views in a pamphlet in which he attacks a former political foe with the same first name.
> 
> *Parm Gill*, the Tory incumbent in the hotly contested Greater Toronto Area riding of Brampton North, sent a letter to constituents — at taxpayers’ expense — in July slamming his opponent “*Ruby*” for championing an expensive policy that neither the Liberal party nor the current Liberal challenger supports.
> 
> “Do you support *Ruby* and the Liberal policy of giving pension to people who have only been in Canada for 3 years and will cost Canadians $700 million per year,” asks Gill in his letter.
> 
> “Ruby and the Liberals have been pushing to lower the residency requirement for Old Age Security (OAS) from 10 years to 3 years for new immigrants,” he asserts. “Granting OAS to individuals who have spent just 3 years in Canada, only benefits those who came to Canada late in their lives.”
> 
> Gill is facing off against Liberal candidate *Ruby Sahota*. But the Ruby who championed that policy was the former Liberal MP, *Ruby Dhalla*. Dhalla introduced a bill, C-428, in 2009 that sought to reduce eligibility requirement for monthly Old Age Security pensions.
> 
> The bill was not supported by the Liberals — their pension critic opposed it at the time — and it was never moved or studied.
> (HuffPo)​
> Dhalla's bill-that-never-was also spawned an incessant circulation on Facebook of an adaptation that continues to purport that immigrants to Canada are given thousands of dollars, free housing, a chauffeured Rolls-Royce, back massages, Manolo Blanik shoes, shares in Apple, etc. upon arrival at the Canadian border. (exaggerating a wee bit for emphasis, obviously). It also usually includes reference to how poor are Senior's pensions, or military service paycheques, etc., designed to "get yer dander up". Nevermind that it's a distorted non-issue.


Just the Conservative truthyness. 

Early on Harper said there was no plan to coverup Duffy's expenses, now former Harper staffers testified in court there was a plan. On the question of "...good to go..." PMO's Wright testified; there was a two point plan and PMO's Perrin testified there was a five point plan.

When it comes to CPC truthiness you always count on at least two thirds of them providing Conservative truthyness .   tptptptp


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> When it comes to CPC truthiness you always count on at least two thirds of them providing Conservative truthyness


Kind of like any NDP/Union truthiness, isn't it? It that case it's all about us and as much as we can get.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Just the Conservative truthyness.
> 
> 
> 
> Early on Harper said there was no plan to coverup Duffy's expenses, now former Harper staffers testified in court there was a plan. On the question of "...good to go..." PMO's Wright testified; there was a two point plan and PMO's Perrin testified there was a five point plan.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to CPC truthiness you always count on at least two thirds of them providing Conservative truthyness .   tptptptp



And in response to the "Just for you" part of a released e-mail informing the recipient that the sender would cover the $90,000 payment for Mr. Duffy, Mr. Woodcock explained that he may not have scrolled down that far on his Blackberry. But if there were only two people who knew about this repayment scheme, where did Mr. Woodcock suddenly come from?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Kind of like any NDP/Union truthiness, isn't it? It that case it's all about us and as much as we can get.


Nope! It's Conservatives in a Court House in Ottawa since April. *Conservatives* wall to wall, a revolving door non-stop, Conservatives providing testimony mostly helping Duffy's defence regarding the PMO/Senate Scandal.

Which number is it SINK 0, 2 or 5. Is it no plan. A 2 point or a 5 point Conservative plan. 

Conservatives don't read their important email from their boss or do not read a critical email from their boss all the way through. Little wonder the PMO Staff got the nickname "The Kids In Short Pants." 

Are the PM and PMO staff hanging on to the hope that a Justice in his Court, let alone the Canadian public are as stupid the Conservative Base to believe this truthyness. 

Chris Woodcock, ex-PMO aide, says he didn't know Wright repaid Duffy's expenses - Politics - CBC News 



*OGL = EPIC FAIL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is an EPIC FAILURE)


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Nope! It's Conservatives in a Court House in Ottawa since April. *Conservatives* wall to wall, a revolving door non-stop, Conservatives providing testimony mostly helping Duffy's defence regarding the PMO/Senate Scandal.
> 
> 
> 
> Which number is it SINK 0, 2 or 5. Is it no plan. A 2 point or a 5 point Conservative plan.
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives don't read their important email from their boss or do not read a critical email from their boss all the way through. Little wonder the PMO Staff got the nickname "The Kids In Short Pants."
> 
> 
> 
> Are the PM and PMO staff hanging on to the hope that a Justice in his Court, let alone the Canadian public are as stupid the Conservative Base to believe this truthyness.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Woodcock, ex-PMO aide, says he didn't know Wright repaid Duffy's expenses - Politics - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *OGL = EPIC FAIL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster is an EPIC FAILURE)



Apparently claiming not to have completely read a private e-mail that was addressed specifically to you is now an acceptable way of avoiding any culpability in Conservative truthyness circles. 😝


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*There's "managing the message" and then there's whatever the hell this is....*

*If We Want to Ask Stephen Harper Questions, We Have to Give His Party $78,000*

"Go write a story about it."

That's the advice I was given by Conservative communications apparatchik Kory Teneycke when I complained about their arbitrary limit on who gets to ask questions of Stephen Harper.

"It's not arbitrary," he told me.

Judge for yourself.

At every event with the Conservative Party leader on the campaign trail, journalists get five questions—or, at least, they're supposed to get five questions.

That's a notable improvement from before the campaign, back when he was running the country full-time, when there was a slim chance of ever getting to ask questions of Harper.

But even so, there's a catch.

Four of the five questions go to tour media—those journalists who are on the official Conservative campaign bus—and one goes to the local media.

To get on that bus, you'll need to shell out $3,000 a day. Or, alternatively, you can get discounted long-term rates of $12,500 a week, or $78,000 for the entire two-and-a-half-month campaign.

Local reporters, on the other hand, have their questions vetted to ensure they're "local" enough. Local reporters are not permitted to ask national questions. Teneycke vets their questions.​
(Believe it or not, there's more at Vice)


----------



## Macfury

Why don't they give the Conservative party $78,000 and ask their questions?


----------



## FeXL

Better than Hillary. She's not answering any questions...


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> *There's "managing the message" and then there's whatever the hell this is....*
> 
> 
> 
> *If We Want to Ask Stephen Harper Questions, We Have to Give His Party $78,000*
> 
> 
> 
> "Go write a story about it."
> 
> 
> 
> That's the advice I was given by Conservative communications apparatchik Kory Teneycke when I complained about their arbitrary limit on who gets to ask questions of Stephen Harper.
> 
> 
> 
> "It's not arbitrary," he told me.
> 
> 
> 
> Judge for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> At every event with the Conservative Party leader on the campaign trail, journalists get five questions&#151;or, at least, they're supposed to get five questions.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a notable improvement from before the campaign, back when he was running the country full-time, when there was a slim chance of ever getting to ask questions of Harper.
> 
> 
> 
> But even so, there's a catch.
> 
> 
> 
> Four of the five questions go to tour media&#151;those journalists who are on the official Conservative campaign bus&#151;and one goes to the local media.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on that bus, you'll need to shell out $3,000 a day. Or, alternatively, you can get discounted long-term rates of $12,500 a week, or $78,000 for the entire two-and-a-half-month campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> Local reporters, on the other hand, have their questions vetted to ensure they're "local" enough. Local reporters are not permitted to ask national questions. Teneycke vets their questions.​
> 
> 
> (Believe it or not, there's more at Vice)



Accountability Act, anyone? Apparently when one is running a country or preparing to continue to run a country, one is not accountable to the taxpayers that put one in the position in the first place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Why don't they give the Conservative party $78,000 and ask their questions?



You're serious? You could pay the money and still not get to be one of the chosen few. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Better than Hillary. She's not answering any questions...



Uh....Hillary's not part of Canadian politics last I checked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

No different from paying to ride on the Liberal bus.



fjnmusic said:


> You're serious? You could pay the money and still not get to be one of the chosen few.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> No different from paying to ride on the Liberal bus.



Justin Trudeau doesn't set a limit on the number of questions he will answer in a day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Dr.G.

rgray said:


>


"Oh what a tangled web we weave ............... "


----------



## Macfury

What is the scandal, Dr. G? That PM Harper was unaware that taxpayers were being protected from Duffy's malfeasance?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> What is the scandal, Dr. G? That PM Harper was unaware that taxpayers were being protected from Duffy's malfeasance?


Sadly, this is becoming more and more like Watergate. He might not have instigated the loan, but PM Harper's insistence that he "knew nothing", given his micromanaging style in the PMO, just rings hollow. While there might not be a "smoking gun" to point directly to him, I find how he has handled the situation to be a demonstration of non-leadership. I would rather he had said that when he first heard of this situation, these are the people he fired for trying to sweep this under the proverbial rug, rather than to circle the wagons to protect the Conservative brand.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## rgray

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, this is becoming more and more like Watergate. He might not have instigated the loan, but PM Harper's insistence that he "knew nothing", given his micromanaging style in the PMO, just rings hollow. While there might not be a "smoking gun" to point directly to him, I find how he has handled the situation to be a demonstration of non-leadership. I would rather he had said that when he first heard of this situation, these are the people he fired for trying to sweep this under the proverbial rug, rather than to circle the wagons to protect the Conservative brand.


And yet the Harpo acolytes will continue to drink the blue Kool-Aid..................


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> What is the scandal, Dr. G? That PM Harper was unaware that taxpayers were being protected from Duffy's malfeasance?


I understand that some folks value money above all. So if misappropriation of dollars is not at the core of an event, for some folks, then no chance of a scandal.

Not acting with integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably, is scandalous for many.

So I get why we can't explain to someone's satisfaction the nature of the scandal...c'est la vie.


----------



## Macfury

The worst case scenario in the minds of his enemies is that Harper knew that taxpayers were being compensated. Even if their dreams came true, it would be the most picayune scandal I could imagine. However, so far I have only seen that there is no hard evidence to say that he did.



BigDL said:


> I understand that some folks value money above all. So if misappropriation of dollars is not at the core of an event, for some folks, then no chance of a scandal.
> 
> Not acting with integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably, is scandalous for many.
> 
> So I get why we can't explain to someone's satisfaction the nature of the scandal...c'est la vie.


----------



## Rps

I think we need to read post 15583 again. I think that states the issue quite clearly. It is not the money, it is about honesty and owning up. Curious don't you think that the real meat of the trial will take place after its break.....sometime in November the smoking gun will surface.....after the election.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I think we need to read post 15583 again. I think that states the issue quite clearly. It is not the money, it is about honesty and owning up. Curious don't you think that the real meat of the trial will take place after its break.....sometime in November the smoking gun will surface.....after the election.


It would only be about honesty and owning up if you don't believe the Prime Minister.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> I think we need to read post 15583 again. I think that states the issue quite clearly. It is not the money, it is about honesty and owning up. Curious don't you think that the real meat of the trial will take place after its break.....sometime in November the smoking gun will surface.....after the election.


I think if things such as honesty or owning up were part of ones character, that individual would be unlikely to enter politics and even less likely to survive to the point of becoming PM, or working in the PMO. Either the desirable character traits would die, or the individual would be unable to survive in such a hostile environment.

I also think this is out and out wrong.


----------



## eMacMan

A bit of a tangent on the FATCA-IGA issue. I wonder if the Canadian government will also allow the Indian Government to rewrite banking and privacy laws. Briefly the Indian government has said it intends to seize virtually 100% of all assets held by Indian individuals in foreign countries. Nothing in the article indicate if the damage will be limited to Indians residing in India. There is certainly a real possibility that it could be later expanded to those who have emmigrated to other nations.

India Cracks Down On Black Money - Tax - India

Harper having already surrendered Canadian sovereignty by signing the FATCA-IGA, would be hard pressed to disregard an identical demand from India.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> I understand that some folks value money above all. So if misappropriation of dollars is not at the core of an event, for some folks, then no chance of a scandal.
> 
> 
> 
> Not acting with integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably, is scandalous for many.
> 
> 
> 
> So I get why we can't explain to someone's satisfaction the nature of the scandal...c'est la vie.



It also speaks to character. Harper is revealing himself to be someone who can't be trusted. If he doesn't want to come clean on his involvement with this situation, even when it's quite obvious that he was much more involved than h claims to be, what else is he not telling us about? The creator of the Accountabilty Act does not understand the irony of his situation; the micromanager who claims to not know what was going on is just not believable. That's why this scandal is important.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

That conclusion would only be possible if he was aware of the cheque.



fjnmusic said:


> It also speaks to character. Harper is revealing himself to be someone who can't be trusted. If he doesn't want to come clean on his involvement with this situation, even when it's quite obvious that he was much more involved than h claims to be, what else is he not telling us about? The creator of the Accountabilty Act does not understand the irony of his situation; the micromanager who claims to not know what was going on is just not believable. That's why this scandal is important.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

BigDL said:


> I understand that some folks value money above all. So if misappropriation of dollars is not at the core of an event, for some folks, then no chance of a scandal.
> 
> Not acting with integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably, is scandalous for many.
> 
> So I get why we can't explain to someone's satisfaction the nature of the scandal...c'est la vie.


Well said!!! 

I think you have subtly, and with clarity, explained the nature of the problem... :clap: :clap:


----------



## FeXL

Just pointing out the hypocrisy that others have been accused of on these boards...



fjnmusic said:


> Uh....Hillary's not part of Canadian politics last I checked.


----------



## FeXL

BREAKING NEWS!!! Another Conservative found embroiled in a financial scandal!!! Film at eleven!!! Burning at the stake at midnite!!!

Oh, wait...

NDP MP Pat Martin used donations from unions to pay off debt from defamation law suit



> According to the Ottawa Citizen, New Democrat MP Pat Martin, received cash gifts from several unions to pay off debts incurred with regard to a defamation law suit against him for accusing an Edmonton call centre of being behind the Guelph robocall scandal.


Let's see what all those interested in the "misappropriation of dollars" and "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably" have to say about this.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, this is becoming more and more like Watergate. He might not have instigated the loan, but PM Harper's insistence that he "knew nothing", given his micromanaging style in the PMO, just rings hollow. While there might not be a "smoking gun" to point directly to him, I find how he has handled the situation to be a demonstration of non-leadership. I would rather he had said that when he first heard of this situation, these are the people he fired for trying to sweep this under the proverbial rug, rather than to circle the wagons to protect the Conservative brand.





FeXL said:


> BREAKING NEWS!!! Another Conservative found embroiled in a financial scandal!!! Film at eleven!!! Burning at the stake at midnite!!!
> 
> Oh, wait...
> 
> NDP MP Pat Martin used donations from unions to pay off debt from defamation law suit
> 
> Let's see what all those interested in the "misappropriation of dollars" and "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably" have to say about this.


Ahh yes a tried and true tactic (by some) of deflection and conflating issues (when its all you got for defence) "if you think we're bad look at the other fellow." (not much of a defence) To paraphrase something that should have been learned before Grade 2; "two wrong doesn't make it right." 



Macfury said:


> It would only be about honesty and owning up if you don't believe the Prime Minister.


It matters not whether you believe or not. The reality of the matter is: does any reasonable person believe the Prime Minister knew or what he ought to have known about the Conservative Plan.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Let's see what all those interested in the "misappropriation of dollars" and "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably" have to say about this.


While there may be a perception of wrongdoing here, do read the article:

_According to the Ottawa Citizen report, *Martin did get approval from federal ethics commissioner* Mary Dawson prior to accepting the union donations. But while he *must recuse himself from voting on legislation that "affect his donors specifically"* he is free to vote "on legislation that affects labour unions generally."_​


----------



## Dr.G.

rgray said:


> and yet the harpo acolytes will continue to drink the blue kool-aid..................


Yuk!!!!!!!!


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> While there may be a perception of wrongdoing here, do read the article:
> 
> _According to the Ottawa Citizen report, *Martin did get approval from federal ethics commissioner* Mary Dawson prior to accepting the union donations. But while he *must recuse himself from voting on legislation that "affect his donors specifically"* he is free to vote "on legislation that affects labour unions generally."_​


*A two year old "controversy,"* that has been dragged into the light of day once again, not exactly a "prime time" issue for any reasonable person.


----------



## FeXL

Just the response I predicted...

Not deflecting, conflating or defending anything or anybody. Again, just pointing out the hypocrisy. Frankly, I could care less about either incident. I see both as tempests in a tea pot. 

If the people who are rubbing their hands with glee & salivating over this as the last nail in the coffin for Harper think that this is the biggest issue in the campaign, then we have nothing to discuss. I see far bigger fish to fry than a lousy $90k payment, no matter who it came from, who it went to or who knew about it. Once again, if you look at scale, that's not a days' interest from some of the scandals currently operating under the guise of "Trust me, I'm from the gov't" or from some in the recent past.

As to your earlier observations about "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably", good luck finding any politician these days with honour & integrity. That's unfortunate but reality. I probably like it less than even you, but, such is the nature of the job.

What the electorate is stuck with is choosing the best of a bad lot & it would behoove all of us to keep our eye on the ball, what the real issues are, instead of chasing every SQUIRREL!!! that passes by.



BigDL said:


> Ahh yes a tried and true tactic (by some) of deflection and conflating issues (when its all you got for defence) "if you think we're bad look at the other fellow." (not much of a defence) To paraphrase something that should have been learned before Grade 2; "two wrong doesn't make it right."


----------



## FeXL

Now, wait just a minute here...

Are you defending him? Why are you defending him? What are you trying to hide? What does he have to hide? Why is he hiding? What is he hiding? Who else saw him? Why are they defending him? What do they have to hide?

And on and on and on...



CubaMark said:


> While there may be a perception of wrongdoing here, do read the article:


----------



## FeXL

So, what's the thrust here? Only current scandals are eligible for discussion? What's the time limit then? A day? Month? Year?

Do tell...

<just shaking my head>



BigDL said:


> *A two year old "controversy,"* that has been dragged into the light of day once again, not exactly a "prime time" issue for any reasonable person.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> BREAKING NEWS!!! Another Conservative found embroiled in a financial scandal!!! Film at eleven!!! Burning at the stake at midnite!!!
> 
> Let's see what all those interested in the "misappropriation of dollars" and "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably" have to say about this.


Whether it's the massive sum Mulcair stole from the government by funneling federal funds to satellite NDP offices, Trudeau billing charities vast sums of money for speeches while he also served as an MP, or reneging on his promises to have an open nomination procedure--these only represent _actual_ malfeasance. What's more important is that Harper _might have_ realized that taxpayers were being protected, even though there is no proof of it.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Now, wait just a minute here...
> 
> Are you defending him? Why are you defending him? What are you trying to hide? What does he have to hide? Why is he hiding? What is he hiding? Who else saw him? Why are they defending him? What do they have to hide?
> 
> And on and on and on...


Sounds like a scandal. I'm not voting NDP now and neither are the people at the barber shop!!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I'm not voting NDP now and neither are the people at the barber shop!!


Nor is anyone else I have talked to in Alberta who voted NDP (in particular those who did so soley to throw the PCs under the bus), apparently having already seen quite enough of the NDP, thanks to the accidental Alberta government of Rachel Notley.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Nor is anyone else I have talked to in Alberta who voted NDP (in particular those who did so soley to throw the PCs under the bus), apparently having already seen quite enough of the NDP, thanks to the accidental Alberta government of Rachel Notley.


SINC, to be fair they were also throwing Wild Rose under the bus for throwing in with the PCs.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> SINC, to be fair they were also throwing Wild Rose under the bus for throwing in with the PCs.


Yep, that too played a big role. Had Danielle Smith stayed the course, she would be premier today with a solid majority. Instead she committed hari kari.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That conclusion would only be possible if he was aware of the cheque.



You honestly believe he wasn't? He will say anything or throw anyone under the bus to save his own ass. That's the Harper way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> BREAKING NEWS!!! Another Conservative found embroiled in a financial scandal!!! Film at eleven!!! Burning at the stake at midnite!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, wait...
> 
> 
> 
> NDP MP Pat Martin used donations from unions to pay off debt from defamation law suit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see what all those interested in the "misappropriation of dollars" and "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably" have to say about this.



Well for one, the Prime Minister should be held to the highest standard. If he NDP MP did something wrong, they should likewise fess up, pay what's owed, or resign. It's really pretty simple, except that you seem to think Harper should somehow get a free pass.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Well for one, the Prime Minister should be held to the highest standard. If he NDP MP did something wrong, they should likewise fess up, pay what's owed, or resign. It's really pretty simple, except that you seem to think Harper should somehow get a free pass.


I think that it would require some proof that he knew.


----------



## FeXL

What *evidence* do you have to the contrary?

If you have nothing more than finger pointing, idle speculation or he said/she said, you got nuttin'...



fjnmusic said:


> You honestly believe he wasn't?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> What *evidence* do you have to the contrary?
> 
> If you have nothing more than finger pointing, idle speculation or he said/she said, you got nuttin'...


They've convicted him in the court of aimless gossip and self-righteousness.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Just the response I predicted...
> 
> 
> 
> Not deflecting, conflating or defending anything or anybody. Again, just pointing out the hypocrisy. Frankly, I could care less about either incident. I see both as tempests in a tea pot.
> 
> 
> 
> If the people who are rubbing their hands with glee & salivating over this as the last nail in the coffin for Harper think that this is the biggest issue in the campaign, then we have nothing to discuss. I see far bigger fish to fry than a lousy $90k payment, no matter who it came from, who it went to or who knew about it. Once again, if you look at scale, that's not a days' interest from some of the scandals currently operating under the guise of "Trust me, I'm from the gov't" or from some in the recent past.
> 
> 
> 
> As to your earlier observations about "integrity, not telling the truth and/or not acting honourably", good luck finding any politician these days with honour & integrity. That's unfortunate but reality. I probably like it less than even you, but, such is the nature of the job.
> 
> 
> 
> What the electorate is stuck with is choosing the best of a bad lot & it would behoove all of us to keep our eye on the ball, what the real issues are, instead of chasing every SQUIRREL!!! that passes by.



You miss the point. It's not about the "lousy $90K"; it's about what else are they not coming clean about? Where there's smoke, there's fire. Perhaps this is the tip of the iceburg. If Harper is going to be so evasive about a "lousy $90k" imagine how evasive he would be about some really big money. Again, it speaks to character and integrity. His refusal to talk to anyone who hasn't been carefully screened and vetted also speaks to accountability, a concept he seems to have forgotten was once the core of his party's platform. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I think that it would require some proof that he knew.



Uh...I see. And today, it would appear you can receive an e-mail and actually say that you didn't read the whole thing and that's an acceptable defense for someone who works in the PMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

If Mulcair is evasive about $600,000 he misappropriated, imagine the iceberg beneath.




fjnmusic said:


> You miss the point. It's not about the "lousy $90K"; it's about what else are they not coming clean about? Where there's smoke, there's fire. Perhaps this is the tip of the iceburg. If Harper is going to be so evasive about a "lousy $90k" imagine how evasive he would be about some really big money. Again, it speaks to character and integrity. His refusal to talk to anyone who hasn't been carefully screened and vetted also speaks to accountability, a concept he seems to have forgotten was once the core of his party's platform.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yep, that too played a big role. Had Danielle Smith stayed the course, she would be premier today with a solid majority. Instead she committed hari kari.



I never knew she was into that kinky stuff. 😳


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

That's what he said under oath. I have also been sent e-mails which I did not finish reading.



fjnmusic said:


> Uh...I see. And today, it would appear you can receive an e-mail and actually say that you didn't read the whole thing and that's an acceptable defense for someone who works in the PMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Stop Harper movement alive and well in B. C.

B.C. voters planning to push Harper's Tories out of office: election poll


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Stop Harper movement alive and well in B. C.
> 
> B.C. voters planning to push Harper's Tories out of office: election poll


and...



> The pollster is studying the views of people who have agreed to participate, often in return for financial benefits of some sort.


----------



## FeXL

First off, in my mind, the PM is just another politician. No more, no less than any other one in the land. The fact that he holds the highest political position in the country does not put him on a pedestal for me.

Second, *all* politicians should be held to the highest standard. Period. People put politicians at all levels, from municipal to federal, in a position of trust and that trust should never be breached.

Third, I don't think Harper should get a free pass, any more than any other politician. So far, however, there has been zero evidence to support his involvement. As I noted above, I find the whole issue almost irrelevant & I don't understand the fixation.

Is this the only issue you find important in the federal campaign? Is this not trite? What about the legalization of pot? Foreign policy? Debt? Native issues? Oil pipelines? Global warming? Renewable energy? Health care? 

Something? Anything? Is everything else so sussed out that there is nothing of substance worth discussing?



fjnmusic said:


> Well for one, the Prime Minister should be held to the highest standard. If he NDP MP did something wrong, they should likewise fess up, pay what's owed, or resign. It's really pretty simple, except that you seem to think Harper should somehow get a free pass.


----------



## FeXL

And if it's not? You add up shoulda, woulda, coulda & you still get SFA...



fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps this is the tip of the iceburg.


None of the bastards are accountable, nor transparent. A very, very few have integrity & character. Unfortunate but, deal with it & move on.

If there was such a thing as the perfect politician, everybody would vote for he/she/it. Thus far, nothing...



fjnmusic said:


> Again, it speaks to character and integrity. His refusal to talk to anyone who hasn't been carefully screened and vetted also speaks to accountability, a concept he seems to have forgotten was once the core of his party's platform.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> and...


D'oh!!!


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> It would only be about honesty and owning up if you don't believe the Prime Minister.


Ah.... the crux of the matter. The PM is simply not credible!!!


----------



## eMacMan

FWIW I quite believe the bit about not reading his eMail. I am sure the conmen have a white list of big donors and email from every one else is shunted to the ignore folder.

We had proof of this when several hundred Brock members made submissions prior to the hearings on Bill C31 Section 5. These submissions were made in February(?) 2014 and Finance Minister Joe Oliver did not got around to replying until December of 2014. Universally he just sent out a pdf of the ConMeißter talking points. Absolute proof that he had not read the submissions, as all of them were made after the talking points were released. Had the talking points addressed the issues raised in the submissions the submitters would have not been making those submissions.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> FWIW I quite believe the bit about not reading his eMail. I am sure the conmen have a white list of big donors and email from every one else is shunted to the ignore folder.
> 
> We had proof of this when several hundred Brock members made submissions prior to the hearings on Bill C31 Section 5. These submissions were made in February(?) 2014 and Finance Minister Joe Oliver did not got around to replying until December of 2014. Universally he just sent out a pdf of the ConMeißter talking points. Absolute proof that he had not read the submissions, as all of them were made after the talking points were released. Had the talking points addressed the issues raised in the submissions the submitters would have not been making those submissions.



Great. The next way to beat the rap will be for someone to claim, yes I read it, but I didn't know what some of the words mean.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

fjnmusic said:


> ........... but I didn't know what some of the words mean.



There's a lot more of THAT going around than many might expect.....


----------



## FeXL

No $hit...



rgray said:


> There's a lot more of THAT going around than many might expect.....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More from the Harper war on science -

http://lethbridgeherald.com/news/lo...search-centre-reports-latest-to-be-destroyed/


----------



## FeXL

C'mon Jimbo, this was posted a couple days back already (posts 15557 & -9). Do try to keep up.

For one, the library is not being closed, like the article notes. It appears they're going digital. And, Jim Byrne from the U of L (who I happen to know personally) seems to think that going digital is a bad thing. I disagree. It will make the materials eminently more searchable & accessible.

That said, I'd like some clarification that doesn't require me going to a CBC site: Are documents actually being destroyed prior to being digitized? If so, then it's an issue.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

An improvement -


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> An improvement -
> 
> View attachment 59665



Pinocchio Harpo!!!


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> An improvement -
> 
> View attachment 59665



But perhaps he's a pathological liar. Is he really lying if he doesn't know he's lying? Harpers and ogres are like onions: you need to peel back the layers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

fjnmusic said:


> But perhaps he's a pathological liar. Is he really lying if he doesn't know he's lying? Harpers and ogres are like onions: you need to peel back the layers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he is a calculator and a manipulator. He justifies his lies for the benefit of HIS longterm goals.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Meanwhile this is happening to journalists in the US.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mERfG6PQGCo[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

I'm going to turn away while you guys pleasure yourselves.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Meanwhile this is happening to journalists in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mERfG6PQGCo[/ame]



It's so good that they remained objective and didn't panic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> I'm going to turn away while you guys pleasure yourselves.


We will also avert our collective gaze from you too........ 

Your onanistic obsession is becoming a little disturbing......


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> C'mon Jimbo, this was posted a couple days back already (posts 15557 & -9). Do try to keep up.


Actually, the destruction of research documents has been going on for quite a bit longer than that. In 2014, the Conservatives implemented the same policy at Health Canada and Fisheries. The concern, particularly in the latter case, was the destruction of historical documents post-digitization (i.e., getting rid of the original source, which has a physical value in and of itself) as well as the dumping of source material without digitization.



FeXL said:


> That said, I'd like some clarification that doesn't require me going to a CBC site: Are documents actually being destroyed prior to being digitized? If so, then it's an issue.


This from the report linked above, which is exceedingly disconcerting:

_On the weekend, an Agriculture and Agri-Food media relations officer said the Harper government is “modernizing the delivery of library services” by *making digital copies of what it considers important. It will keep “all materials of business value*.”_​


----------



## rgray

CubaMark said:


> Actually, the destruction of research documents has been going on for quite a bit longer than that. In 2014, the Conservatives implemented the same policy at Health Canada and Fisheries. The concern, particularly in the latter case, was the destruction of historical documents post-digitization (i.e., getting rid of the original source, which has a physical value in and of itself) as well as the dumping of source material without digitization.
> 
> 
> 
> This from the report linked above, which is exceedingly disconcerting:
> 
> _On the weekend, an Agriculture and Agri-Food media relations officer said the Harper government is “modernizing the delivery of library services” by *making digital copies of what it considers important. It will keep “all materials of business value*.”_​


 *making digital copies of what it considers important. It will keep “all materials of business value"*

The very point of research is that in most cases the so-called "business value" is unknown at the time of the research. Research provides the building block upon which business can innovate. Without those building blocks innovation will ultimately founder.

Business cannot guide research - human curiosity does that,

Science hating Harpo and the Con-men simply cannot be trusted to have the experience or background, wit or intellect to interpret the real, or possible long-term, value of research.


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> *making digital copies of what it considers important. It will keep “all materials of business value"*
> 
> The very point of research is that in most cases the so-called "business value" is unknown at the time of the research. Research provides the building block upon which business can innovate. Without those building blocks innovation will ultimately founder.
> 
> Business cannot guide research - human curiosity does that,
> 
> Science hating Harpo and the Con-ment simply cannot be trusted to have the experience or background, wit or intellect to interpret the real, or possible long-term, value of research.


The Toronto library is doing the same. Nobody is accessing this stuff, so they're digitizing it. People I know have tried to donate what they believe is important historic research material to various public agencies at many levels. They have been rebuffed.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> The Toronto library is doing the same. Nobody is accessing this stuff, so they're digitizing it. People I know have tried to donate what they believe is important historic research material to various public agencies at many levels. They have been rebuffed.


So you're saying the Toronto library is acting in the same manner as OGL=Epic Fail*? The Toronto Library is only making ..."digital copies of what it considers important. It will keep “all materials of business value.”

So you are saying the Toronto Library is destroying "hard copies" of papers/books without making digital copies of historical, cultural and not having popular entertainment value, because those have no business value?   

*please see signature below for meaning


----------



## Macfury

No failure at all. You can't save everything forever, just because some bearded professor might think he stands a chance of looking at it once before he dies.



BigDL said:


> So you're saying the Toronto library is acting in the same manner as OGL=Epic Fail*? The Toronto Library is only making ..."digital copies of what it considers important. It will keep “all materials of business value.”
> 
> So you are saying the Toronto Library is destroying "hard copies" of papers/books without making digital copies of historical, cultural and not having popular entertainment value, because those have no business value?
> 
> *please see signature below for meaning


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> No failure at all. You can't save everything forever, just because some bearded professor might think he stands a chance of looking at it once before he dies.


And the clean-shaven ones? (I don't trust those guys - it's like they're not actually committing to the lifestyle, y'know?)


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> No failure at all. You can't save everything forever, just because some bearded professor might think he stands a chance of looking at it once before he dies.


As a (sometime bearded) professor I resent your somewhat sneering tone. And it is a typical anti-science, anti-knowledge Con attitude that fails to value archival knowledge!!

As a researcher of some 35 years I can tell you that old records are invaluable for refining new approaches and preventing unnecessary and expensive "do overs" amongst a host of other uses.......


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> As a (sometime bearded) professor I resent your somewhat sneering tone. And it is a typical anti-science, anti-knowledge Con attitude that fails to value archival knowledge!!
> 
> As a researcher of some 35 years I can tell you that old records are invaluable for refining new approaches and preventing unnecessary and expensive "do overs" amongst a host of other uses.......


Nothing wrong with the bearded ones. I think of them as the archetypal professor. I love old documents as well. Not all of them are valuable. 

Do you think we should save everything ever printed? 



CubaMark said:


> And the clean-shaven ones? (I don't trust those guys - it's like they're not actually committing to the lifestyle, y'know?)


I think shaving takes too much time away from their studies. 

Beatnik lingo for a professor was "beard." I always liked that.


----------



## Dr.G.

rgray said:


> As a (sometime bearded) professor I resent your somewhat sneering tone. And it is a typical anti-science, anti-knowledge Con attitude that fails to value archival knowledge!!
> 
> As a researcher of some 35 years I can tell you that old records are invaluable for refining new approaches and preventing unnecessary and expensive "do overs" amongst a host of other uses.......


I strongly agree, rgray ............ as a bearded prof of 38 years. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I strongly agree, rgray ............ as a bearded prof of 38 years. :clap:


Were you smarter before or after the beard?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Were you smarter before or after the beard?


After ............ since I had more knowledge from reading, writing and doing research. Still, all humor aside, I, like rgray, don't like it when people take pot shots at educators.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> After ............ since I had more knowledge from reading, writing and doing research. Still, all humor aside, I, like rgray, don't like it when people take pot shots at educators.


What was the nature of the pot shot? I don't think I get it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> What was the nature of the pot shot? I don't think I get it.


"You can't save everything forever, just because some bearded professor might think he stands a chance of looking at it once before he dies." You should have left it at "You can't save everything".


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> "You can't save everything forever, just because some bearded professor might think he stands a chance of looking at it once before he dies." You should have left it at "You can't save everything".



4 words, brilliant, maybe even a little poignant. 24 words, boorish. Those extra 20 words make all the difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> 4 words, brilliant, maybe even a little poignant. 24 words, boorish. Those extra 20 words make all the difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

"Bearded professor" is an archetype, not an insult. 

Should I put "trigger warnings" on my posts?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> "Bearded professor" is an archetype, not an insult.
> 
> Should I put "trigger warnings" on my posts?


Other groups have used the beard, the profession, the nose, etc, as an "archetype", and the results were not positive. Thus, you should have stuck with the idea that some documents needed to be scanned since we can't save everything. I would have agreed with this comment. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Not buying this one folks. It does not conflate with racial or ethnic prejudice.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> "Bearded professor" is an archetype, not an insult.
> 
> Should I put "trigger warnings" on my posts?


Oh please!!

"Archetype" = "stereotype"

"Stereotype" is always an insult!!

"Archetype" is the word 'politically correct' types hide behind when caught out using an insulting stereotype......


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Sorry, I'm not buying it. You're working too hard to appear injured.



rgray said:


> Oh please!!
> 
> "Archetype" = "stereotype"
> 
> "Stereotype" is always an insult!!
> 
> "Archetype" is the word 'politically correct' types hide behind when caught out using an insulting stereotype......


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hébert -

"
If Harper’s most trusted aides — many of whom are still in place — were willing to use every lever at their disposal to lie their way out of an embarrassment to the Conservative party, how far would they go to sway public opinion on a matter of central importance to the government and the country?

And if voters — upon being presented with undeniable evidence of a high-level cover-up designed to mislead them — are content to look the other way, how can they expect future governments to think twice about the risks of fooling Canadians into believing whatever best serves their partisan purpose"

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...character-revealed-in-duffy-affair-hbert.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=vcCa59p0860


----------



## rgray




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## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Even with NDP leading polls, Conservatives projected to win more seats - The Globe and Mail



> If the NDP continue to poll well, showing leads in four of the last six publicly-released polls, why does the Globe’s Election Forecast suggest that the Conservatives have a higher probability of winning the most seats? The important thing to remember is that not all votes are created equal in terms of their ability to convert into seats.
> 
> The NDP’s strength, like in 2011, remains in Quebec. In the latest Angus Reid poll, the New Democrats are polling at a robust 51 per cent of the vote. Yet, in 2011, they turned 43 per cent of the province’s vote into winning 59 of the 75 seats. If we accept the Angus Reid number, increasing their vote share by 8 per cent around the province doesn’t leave them with much room to grow seat-wise: a seat is a seat, won by 1 vote or 20,000.
> 
> At the same time, the Conservatives also remain reasonably strong in Ontario.


Sad to see Mulcair brazenly continuing Jack Layton's policy of positioning the NDP as the best chance for Quebec separatists.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Why does the cartoonist depicts the scientist as a hapless milquetoast? The liberal mindset appears heavily invested in victim mythology.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Even with NDP leading polls, Conservatives projected to win more seats - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> Sad to see Mulcair brazenly continuing Jack Layton's policy of positioning the NDP as the best chance for Quebec separatists.


That's just simple odds. One party on the right and two on the left means the lefty parties may cancel each other out, although maybe not on a riding by riding basis. I'm told by a bunch of righty whiners that this is what happened in Alberta, and if only you could combine all those whiny righty votes, the whiny righties could have won the election.


----------



## Macfury

I don't think that's what happened in Alberta. I might have agreed had Wild Rose not staged that ridiculous defection. That made it impossible for many people to choose either--the PCs for failing to cut spending and WildRose for selling out its own supporters. Just as too many Ontarians once did, they punished those parties by voting for a party that will cripple their economy.



fjnmusic said:


> That's just simple odds. One party on the right and two on the left means the lefty parties may cancel each other out, although maybe not on a riding by riding basis. I'm told by a bunch of righty whiners that this is what happened in Alberta, and if only you could combine all those whiny righty votes, the whiny righties could have won the election.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

What is a "candidates choir"? 

Harper can't ask Siri about the weather because he's FIRED ALL THE SCIENTISTS!!!!! WAH-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H!!!!!!


----------



## Rps

Fjn, I think if you check the history Mulcair is more in line with being a PC than NDP. What we have now are three parties moving to a more conservative dogma. In Alberta I think the Wild Rose party needlessly self destructed.......we may never know what under the table dealings went on there.


----------



## rgray

Federal scientist put on leave over Harperman protest song - Politics - CBC News





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> Fjn, I think if you check the history Mulcair is more in line with being a PC than NDP. What we have now are three parties moving to a more conservative dogma. In Alberta I think the Wild Rose party needlessly self destructed.......we may never know what under the table dealings went on there.


They self-destructed alright...and went right into the willing arms of the PC's, as though that would provide shelter from the storm. What made this last election so great is that everyone just ASSUMED that Alberta is nothing but ******* cowboys, when it turns out there's a lot more hippie tree-huggers than people realized. It's one think to rationalize a protest vote, but people could have just as easily protested by voting Wildrose. What we have here is a paradigm shift.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> They self-destructed alright...and went right into the willing arms of the PC's, as though that would provide shelter from the storm. What made this last election so great is that everyone just ASSUMED that Alberta is nothing but ******* cowboys, when it turns out there's a lot more hippie tree-huggers than people realized. It's one think to rationalize a protest vote, but people could have just as easily protested by voting Wildrose. What we have here is a paradigm shift.


No paradigm shift. They could not have supported Wildrose because it could no longer be trusted. 

By the way I never assumed that Alberta was made up of ******* cowboys. Voting the NDP into office has made me disrespect much of its population for the first time in my life.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> No paradigm shift. They could not have supported Wildrose because it could no longer be trusted.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way I never assumed that Alberta was made up of ******* cowboys. Voting the NDP into office has made me disrespect much of its population for the first time in my life.



Boy, talk about sour grapes. Well, you only have three years and nine months before they get voted in again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rgray

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## rgray

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## rgray

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> Boy, talk about sour grapes. Well, you only have three years and nine months before they get voted in again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it is a little early to suggest they will get voted back in. It is also too early to determine if this is a paradigm shift or a protest vote.....which are not the same thing.


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Tasteful and witty! Harper plays piano too—I'll bet he'd enjoy this too, he has such a great sense of humour. 😳


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> I think it is a little early to suggest they will get voted back in. It is also too early to determine if this is a paradigm shift or a protest vote.....which are not the same thing.



Every election is a protest vote against the old regime and a paradigm shift to a new model. Every election, even if the incumbent stays in power. Sometimes it's a protest against the winds of change, sometimes it's a shift to a let's play it safe model. But to dismiss the results of an election that dismantled a 44 year old dynasty is short-sighted and childish. An election is a report card on the way things have been. Conservatives in Alberta are still stuck at step one of the grieving process.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rps

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Paradigms and Protest are different, and the proof is in the next election. It was not my intent to slam your views, which I would never do and I apologize if it came across that way, but experience has taught me that to measure a paradigm shift takes more time to measure.


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## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Every election is a protest vote against the old regime and a paradigm shift to a new model. Every election, even if the incumbent stays in power. Sometimes it's a protest against the winds of change, sometimes it's a shift to a let's play it safe model. But to dismiss the results of an election that dismantled a 44 year old dynasty is short-sighted and childish. An election is a report card on the way things have been. Conservatives in Alberta are still stuck at step one of the grieving process.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This NDP victory was not a choice by Albertans based on the policies of the NDP. It was an accidental result of a huge backlash against both Conservative parties. Prentice for his arragance and Danielle detroyed the trust in the WRP. That simple.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> I think we will have to agree to disagree. Paradigms and Protest are different, and the proof is in the next election. It was not my intent to slam your views, which I would never do and I apologize if it came across that way, but experience has taught me that to measure a paradigm shift takes more time to measure.



No problem, Rps. As a guy born and raised in Edmonton, I can say that there is definitely a rootsy folky homegrown cultural aspect to Alberta that doesn't always get the promotion it deserves. Sure, Edmonton was once a hockey and football dynasty back in the 80's, and sure we've been blessed with great oil and gas resources, but that's far from all that we do. Edmonton is Festival city with some 78 festivals taking place in and around the Edmonton area each year, including Heritage Days, the Folk Fest, and the Fringe. All of these things have a much more Liberal/NDP sort of vibe than the oil industry stuff we're known for. To me the Alberta NDP is much more about promoting culture, which has been flourishing for a long time. It's the promotion of this more artsy type of culture that represents a paradigm shift, and believe me, it is real. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> This NDP victory was not a choice by Albertans based on the policies of the NDP. It was an accidental result of a huge backlash against both Conservative parties. Prentice for his arragance and Danielle detroyed the trust in the WRP. That simple.



Listen to what you're saying: Albertans chose in large numbers not to support the Conservative agenda any more. Hardly an "accidental result." More like many Albertans had woken up and voted with their conscience for the first time in many decades.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Everybody is aware of the festivals, and cultural events. I surely am. It is no paradigm shift at all.

Most of it is supported by energy sponsorships--with few exceptions. So Notley's plan is to make taxpayers pay for it instead? Nice trick!

By the time Bob Rae had finished his magic in Ontario there was no money left for anything--including festivals.



fjnmusic said:


> ...ure we've been blessed with great oil and gas resources, but that's far from all that we do. Edmonton is Festival city with some 78 festivals taking place in and around the Edmonton area each year, including Heritage Days, the Folk Fest, and the Fringe. All of these things have a much more Liberal/NDP sort of vibe than the oil industry stuff we're known for. To me the Alberta NDP is much more about promoting culture, which has been flourishing for a long time. It's the promotion of this more artsy type of culture that represents a paradigm shift, and believe me, it is real.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

It isn't that they did not wish to vote for a conservative agenda--it's that there wasn't one available for them to support. Prentice had gone liberal and was no different from the dysfunctional Liberals. WildRose had defected. Their only choice was to vote for another party in hopes of shifting the other two back to their roots.



fjnmusic said:


> Listen to what you're saying: Albertans chose in large numbers not to support the Conservative agenda any more. Hardly an "accidental result." More like many Albertans had woken up and voted with their conscience for the first time in many decades.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Listen to what you're saying: Albertans chose in large numbers not to support the Conservative agenda any more. Hardly an "accidental result." More like many Albertans had woken up and voted with their conscience for the first time in many decades.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Must I repeat it wasn't because of NDP policy, it was angry backlash against the Cons for anything but Conservative which the majority of Albertans will come to regret.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It isn't that they did not wish to vote for a conservative agenda--it's that there wasn't one available for them to support. Prentice had gone liberal and was no different from the dysfunctional Liberals. WildRose had defected. Their only choice was to vote for another party in hopes of shifting the other two back to their roots.


Keep talking. What you're saying is that the right wing parties in Alberta were not something people wanted to support this election cycle. Don't be too surprised if you see a repeat of this sentiment in Alberta come October 19. The people have spoken with their votes and you are still in denial, stage one of the grieving process.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Must I repeat it wasn't because of NDP policy, it was angry backlash against the Cons for anything but Conservative which the majority of Albertans will come to regret.


Funny, but the end result is exactly the same. The NDP won the provincial election with a very large majority. The PC's and the Wildrose did not, even though either one could have if people still believed in them.


----------



## Macfury

There were no right wing parties running in Alberta at the time of the election. 



fjnmusic said:


> Keep talking. What you're saying is that the right wing parties in Alberta were not something people wanted to support this election cycle. Don't be too surprised if you see a repeat of this sentiment in Alberta come October 19. The people have spoken with their votes and you are still in denial, stage one of the grieving process.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Funny, but the end result is exactly the same. The NDP won the provincial election with a very large majority. The PC's and the Wildrose did not, even though either one could have if people still believed in them.


The vast majority of Albertans do not 'believe' in the NDP and that will be shown when a viable alternative comes in the next election. Watch it happen. The NDP in Alberta is a fringe party with little public support. They were given an accidental gift by a pissed off electorate.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> There were no right wing parties running in Alberta at the time of the election.



Boy have you been drinking your own bath water. I have a feeling that the PC and Wildrose candidates and MLA's from the last election would wonder about your loyalty. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> The vast majority of Albertans do not 'believe' in the NDP and that will be shown when a viable alternative comes in the next election. Watch it happen. The NDP in Alberta is a fringe party with little public support. They were given an accidental gift by a pissed off electorate.



There's some comfort for you, Don: only three years and nine months before they get voted in again. 😎


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Boy have you been drinking your own bath water. I have a feeling that the PC and Wildrose candidates and MLA's from the last election would wonder about your loyalty.


I'm not loyal to them. I'm loyal to fiscal conservatives.


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## rgray




----------



## FeXL

So what is it about certain...sects of society struggling with the English language?

Percent/percentage point, surplus, etc... 

The Things You Only See On The CBC



> CBC fixes headline to call a surplus a surplus.


Oh, & from the comments, a bit of financial advice for our provincial NDP (sure to be ignored):



> I was glad to see that Mr. Harper took some credit for this situation, and pointed out, implicitly, that low taxes, balanced budgets and a low debt-to-GDP ratio, together, constitute the best formula for economic resiliency in the face of uncertainty.


----------



## FeXL

What's this? Further discord in the ranks?

Liberal who lost Montreal riding nomination to Trudeau-linked candidate appeals results



> Yesterday morning, [Grace] Batchoun, a project manager who was one of three opponents contesting Joly for the nomination, announced that she had filed an appeal of the Sunday’s vote. Her challenge is based on several factors, the most worrisome based on simple arithmetic. On Sunday organizers of the vote announced that 2,065 ballots had been cast, including spoiled votes. But according to Batchoun’s reading of the list of ballots cast that she says was provided to her by a Liberal Party official, only 1780 people actually showed up to vote. That it appears there were 285 ballots counted in excess of the number of party members who actually participated is troubling enough. But the fact Batchoun lost the nomination by 194 votes pretty well explains why she has asked the Liberal Party to provide her with a final list identifying those who cast a ballot.


Huh. Imagine that...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yikes. Look at the comments on Harper's Instagram ads. Not for too much longer.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Who said this? -

"I've looked at the numbers. Her travel costs are comparable to any Parliamentarian travelling from that particular area of the country..."

Answer: Harper!


http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...6?hootPostID=e5d7c77c97b38f27005ee16cd51f8946


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What's next for Disgraced Harper appointed Senator Pammy Wallin?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sad. That lady on the right seems to be in mourning for someone's political career Who's the guy on the left?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


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## SINC

Yep


----------



## Macfury

I heard little Justin on the radio this morning promising to run massively increased deficits. For anyone supporting the Libs, I don't want to hear any more complaints about any current deficits.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I don't want to hear any more complaints about any current deficits.


I agree, all this talk of deficits, do most posters here get that our current political load is less than 1/2 of 1% of GDP...... So enough on deficits, they are political smoke and mirrors. What you need to focus on is who and how will programmes be paid for. And, yes, all parties will lie about this. So ignore the deficits and look at who will be signing the cheques.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I heard little Justin on the radio this morning promising to run massively increased deficits. For anyone supporting the Libs, I don't want to hear any more complaints about any current deficits.


Are you saying Conservative deficits are entirely more righteous, irreproachable, honourable, nobel, saintly and pure?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Are you saying Conservative deficits are entirely more righteous, irreproachable, honourable, nobel, saintly and pure?


Nope. I am saying that Trudeau promises to increase them rapidly. The Liberals are attacking Harper simultaneously for deficits racked up during the stimulus program and also for not spending enough on the stimulus program.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Nope. I am saying that Trudeau promises to increase them rapidly. The Liberals are attacking Harper simultaneously for deficits racked up during the stimulus program and also for not spending enough on the stimulus program.


Ok, so my retirement from this place was short...

But I have to say this post makes a lot of sense to me.

I think this may be the first actual "horse race" in Canadian political history.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Ok, so my retirement from this place was short...
> 
> But I have to say this post makes a lot of sense to me.
> 
> I think this may be the first actual "horse race" in Canadian political history.


True, screature. With so many undecided voters, many ridings could go to any of the three main political parties. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

*All meetings with RCMP must be approved by Conservatives, documents show*

_RCMP commissioner denies being “muzzled” but now refers meeting requests to “ministerial liaison_

The federal Conservatives are directly exerting strict communications control over the RCMP and its new top cop, documents obtained by the Star reveal.

Public Safety documents released under Access to Information show that top political staff of Minister Vic Toews oversaw and approved the design of the new RCMP communications protocol that put the national police force on a tighter leash.

As the Star first reported, that protocol requires the RCMP to flag anything that might “garner national media attention” to Public Safety Canada.

New documents show that Toews’ office had a direct hand in crafting the policy, working with the RCMP’s new public affairs director — Daniel Lavoie — a former associate assistant deputy minister in Toews’ department.

Lavoie, who moved to the RCMP from Public Safety last summer, advised his former colleagues that implementing the new protocol “will require a change of mentality” at the RCMP, even though the force already flagged important media issues to the government.

* * *​
The documents show it was developed under the watchful eye of Toews’ chief of staff Andrew House and communications director Michael Patton, contrary to initial suggestions to the Star by Patton that he was unaware of a new policy.

On top of that comes a new edict from Toews’ office that requires Elliott’s replacement, Commissioner Bob Paulson, to vet all his meetings with MPs and senators first through his political bosses.

Liberal Senator Colin Kenny condemned the new policy, calling it unprecedented interference on the independence of the arm’s-length national police force.

“If this guy kowtows, the whole force has got problems,” said Kenny, who has been rebuffed in attempts to meet with Paulson. “The cops aren’t meant to be part of the political apparatus.”​
(Toronto Star)


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray

BigDL said:


> Are you saying Conservative deficits are entirely more righteous, irreproachable, honourable, nobel, saintly and pure?


When *Harpo lied* about being in balance or surplus and then turns out to be in *deficit* because he gave money to people who didn't need it in pre-election vote buying that is fine with the righties!! ( Make that 7 deficits!!!)

When *Harpo lied* about being the best to run the economy and then ran it into recession that is fine with the righties. (Make that 2 recessions!!!!!)

But when Trudeau truthfully plans a deficit, all of a sudden the righties are getting their panties all knotted up...... 

The hypocrisy is beyond laughable.....

Historically in this country it is the Con-men that spend us into increased deficit and it is the Liberals that pull us out. Check out the actual financial history of Brian and Paul.

And yet Harpo and the Con-men and the righties persist in the *BIG LIE* that the Cons are the ones to manage the economy..... And an unfortunate number of voters are still swallowing that Kool-aid........


----------



## Macfury

Nope. the Liberals demanded larger infrastructure spending deficits,complained that Harper's was not large enough, then criticized him for running a deficit.



rgray said:


> When *Harpo lied* about being in balance or surplus and then turns out to be in *deficit* because he gave money to people who didn't need it in pre-election vote buying that is fine with the righties!!
> 
> When *Harpo lied* about being the best to run the economy and then ran it into recession that is fine with the righties. (Make that 2 recessions!!!!!)
> 
> But when Trudeau truthfully plans a deficit, all of a sudden the righties are getting their panties all knotted up......
> 
> The hypocrisy is beyond laughable.....
> 
> Historically in this country it is the Con-men that spend us into increased deficit and it is the Liberals that pull us out. Check out the actual financial history of Brian and Paul.
> 
> And yet Harpo and the Con-men and the righties persist in the *BIG LIE* that the Cons are the ones to manage the economy..... And an unfortunate number of voters are still swallowing that Kool-aid........


----------



## Macfury

I'm fascinated by some of the cartoons you post rgray--so many portray Canadians as hapless victims and ineffectual rubes.



rgray said:


>


----------



## Dr.G.

"Grey power" could be a factor when the federal election takes place next month.

Will seniors 'make the difference' at the polls on election day? - Windsor - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## eMacMan

There is also omnibus power. Harper threw a lot of Canadians under one omnibus or another. Always good to know how other parties view these bills. I've mentioned the FATCA-IGA debacle on a number of occasions. Here are NDP and Liberal responses.

The Isaac Brock Society | How will *US-deemed US Persons* in Canada vote on October 19th? There is now an ADCS-ADSC reply from the NDP Party to compare to the reply from the Liberal Party…

While five months seems like an incredibly slow response, bear in mind that Oliver took over nine months, then simply repeated the PMO talking points, which of course say only that the con party bows to the will of its bankster masters.


----------



## FeXL

Somebody gets it...

Public spending can't grow an economy



> But, quite simply, public spending and planning cannot grow an economy in any significant way, except – perhaps – briefly and temporarily. *Only consumers and private investors can create the conditions for solid, sustained growth.*


M'bold.

Yep. And, the unbolded portion of that quote is something I've noted on these boards myself.

More:



> So while Trudeau may sound much dumber on the economy than Mulcair, the fact that both men fundamentally believe that the federal government can replace the private sector as the driver of Canada’s economy means *both are residents of Fantasy Island.*


M'bold.

Further:



> In the past 40 years, federal budget balancing has been rare. *When the economy has been strong* and a fairly careful finance minister has come along (Paul Martin or Jim Flaherty), Ottawa has managed – slowly – to balance its spending with its revenues.
> 
> Only at the provincial level have there been real budget fighters – Ralph Klein in Alberta, Mike Harris in Ontario, Roy Romanow in Saskatchewan, Bill Bennett in B.C.


Again, m'bold.

Go get 'em, Lorne...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Somebody gets it....


 I think John Maynard Keynes has rather a bit more credibility than Lorne Gunter


----------



## FeXL

Riiiiight.

'Cause the execution of his theory in the US under Obama has been so...successful.

Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. After all, this is the Canadian Political thread and the US pertains only to the American Political thread an' ne'er the twain should meet. Obviously they're completely unrelated.

But, wait! Keynes was a Brit, so how does that figger into the picture? That should be in the International Politics thread. <wringing my hands> Oh, my, my, what to do now...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I think John Maynard Keynes has rather a bit more credibility than Lorne Gunter


I don't think you understand Keynes.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I don't think you understand Keynes.


Sure he does. He read about it on one of those lefty boards...


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray

FeXL said:


> Sure he does. He read about it on one of those lefty boards...


Which should balance. Lorne Gunter writes for a righty rag.......

He seems to have no particular credentials other than being a "conservative commentator"....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Great to see Rosie eat Chris Alexander alive last night. Bravo CBC - we need more of you. Then there's this morning's article with the dead boy on the beach. I trust Alexander is soundly defeated on October 19.

Chris Alexander defends Canada's refugee response, blames media for ignoring crisis - Politics - CBC News
Family of children found on Turkish beach were trying to come to Canada | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## SINC

Posting that kind of photo for political gain is the most disgusting thing ever. I didn't think even Jimbo could stoop that low.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Front page Globe and Mail good buddy. Alexander has just suspended his campaign.
Good riddance. And of course most of us are looking forward to giving Harper the boot on October 19.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Front page Globe and Mail good buddy. Alexander has just suspended his campaign.
> Good riddance. And of course most of us are looking forward to giving Harper the boot on October 19.


Skippy, that may come but I think you are of the misguided opinion that Mr. Harper would not govern. Remember we don't elect governments but Parliaments.

If the numbers work out that the Cons are in second place, any close behind the NDP, then the GG could choose same old same old if there is reason to believe there is confidence in the current government as opposed to cyclical elections of a number of years ago. Coalition comes to mind and it may be the Cons and the Libs. 

You would get your wish however, Mr. Harper would be dumped in a leadership review.

Should be fun to watch!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Rps said:


> Skippy, that may come but I think you are of the misguided opinion that Mr. Harper would not govern. Remember we don't elect governments but Parliaments.
> 
> If the numbers work out that the Cons are in second place, any close behind the NDP, then the GG could choose same old same old if there is reason to believe there is confidence in the current government as opposed to cyclical elections of a number of years ago. Coalition comes to mind and it may be the Cons and the Libs.
> 
> You would get your wish however, Mr. Harper would be dumped in a leadership review.
> 
> Should be fun to watch!


Good points. I'm fully aware of the variables at play but my gut tells me the shift has started in Ontario.

In any case it will be very interesting to see the "media lines" Alexander and the PMO develop in response to the Syrian crisis. Harper blames it all on ISIS but most Canadian's know the Bush war on Iraq was the catalyst. Of course Harper badly wanted Canada to participate in that invasion.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Good points. I'm fully aware of the variables at play but my gut tells me the shift has started in Ontario.
> 
> In any case it will be very interesting to see the "media lines" Alexander and the PMO develop in response to the Syrian crisis. Harper blames it all on ISIS but most Canadian's know the Bush war on Iraq was the catalyst. Of course Harper badly wanted Canada to participate in that invasion.


Hoe many refugees do you think Canada should bring in Jimbo?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Hoe many refugees do you think Canada should bring in Jimbo?


Not my place to say. I would encourage an international dialogue and contribute towards a more humane solution than that which exists.

Interesting that if it were not for the offspring of a Syrian migrant this forum would not exist.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Not my place to say. I would encourage an international dialogue and contribute towards a more humane solution than that which exists.


So essentially, you're critical but you have no idea why.




skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Interesting that if it were not for the offspring of a Syrian migrant this forum would not exist.


How's that?


----------



## CubaMark

I've avoided posting that article and photo here simply because of the response I anticipate will come from the usual suspects.

...and because it's tragic beyond words. I don't have it in me to deal with it in this forum.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> I've avoided posting that article and photo here simply because of the response I anticipate will come from the usual suspects.
> 
> ...and because it's tragic beyond words. I don't have it in me to deal with it in this forum.


I suppose I am one of the usual suspects Mark, but I abhor anyone or any publication using that poor dead child for any purpose. It is tragedy beyond belief and having grandchildren the same age, it pains me to even view it, never mind see it used for any political purpose like it has been here.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> So essentially, you're critical but you have no idea why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's that?


I merely stated I have no expertise to determine an answer to your question. Previous Canadian governments collaborated internationally through the UN in similar circumstances. Something our current government prefers not to do.

An example of this would be Vietnam. I believer Canada accepted 60,000 refugees in that case.

As to the "How's that?" - Steve Jobs was the offspring of a Syrian migrant.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I suppose I am one of the usual suspects Mark, but I abhor anyone or any publication using that poor dead child for any purpose. It is tragedy beyond belief and having grandchildren the same age, it pains me to even view it, never mind see it used for any political purpose like it has been here.


Agreed. Some people have no limits.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper blames it all on ISIS but most Canadian's know the Bush war on Iraq was the catalyst. Of course Harper badly wanted Canada to participate in that invasion.


You a partially right here. When to so called Arab Spring rose ( historically not even a cup of coffee in time ) we in the West did not fully understand Middle Eastern Culture. We've screwed it up in the days of the fall of the Ottoman Empire. However, Syria drank the Kool-Aid. The violence against the government was met with, well, more violence and more fire-power.

The U.S., in its naval gazing wisdom decided not to topple the Syrian Government. Which is unusual for them since they, next to the British and the Russians have had so much practice at it. The civil war that ensued was cause for groups such as ISIS to say, join us as the US isn't going to help you..... so they did.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> As to the "How's that?" - Steve Jobs was the offspring of a Syrian migrant.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think we weren't at war with Syria at that time.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Rps said:


> You a partially right here. When to so called Arab Spring rose ( historically not even a cup of coffee in time ) we in the West did not fully understand Middle Eastern Culture. We've screwed it up in the days of the fall of the Ottoman Empire. However, Syria drank the Kool-Aid. The violence against the government was met with, well, more violence and more fire-power.
> 
> The U.S., in its naval gazing wisdom decided not to topple the Syrian Government. Which is unusual for them since they, next to the British and the Russians have had so much practice at it. The civil war that ensued was cause for groups such as ISIS to say, join us as the US isn't going to help you..... so they did.


The US couldn't topple the Syrian regime even though they were part of the infamous "Axis of Evil" because they were friendly enough to rendition Canadian citizen Maher Ahrar there for torture and false information.


----------



## FeXL

Are you defending CM's interpretation of Keynes' work? If so, please elaborate.

As to the balance of your statement, first off, that's an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. 

Second, you may wish to read the first quote in my signature. I don't care what initials you may or may not have behind your name. A moron with a PhD who cannot formulate an argument is still a moron. Some of the wisest & worldliest people I ever knew pushed a broom around every day & quit school before grade 8.

Third, Gunter is correct: It makes zero sense that the gov't creates sustained growth. The gov't is a consumer, not a producer.



rgray said:


> Which should balance. Lorne Gunter writes for a righty rag.......
> 
> He seems to have no particular credentials other than being a "conservative commentator"....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Rps said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think we weren't at war with Syria at that time.


As no one is at war with Syria right now.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think we weren't at war with Syria at that time.


It seems to me that Skippy is saying that Steve Jobs could not have invented a computer in Syria. That's curious cultural prejudice at work.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Are you defending CM's interpretation of Keynes' work? If so, please elaborate.
> 
> .....
> 
> Third, Gunter is correct: It makes zero sense that the gov't creates sustained growth. The gov't is a consumer, not a producer.


In fact, Keynes would never have tolerated a situation in which the government attempted to replace a failing economy (BHO) with permanent "priming of the pump."


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> As no one is at war with Syria right now.


Don't get out much do you!


----------



## SINC

And now, a look back . . .


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Front page Globe and Mail good buddy. Alexander has just suspended his campaign.
> Good riddance. And of course most of us are looking forward to giving Harper the boot on October 19.


There you go expressing your political "savy" again...

Alexander suspended his campaign so that he could look into the case as a Minister and not as a candidate. 

You really don't seem to understand the electoral process in this country very well... You should not feel ashamed as I suspect 90% of Canadians don't either and don't give a damn.

When you stop talking through a hole in your hat maybe I can take you seriously but until then...


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> I suppose I am one of the usual suspects Mark, but I abhor anyone or any publication using that poor dead child for any purpose. It is tragedy beyond belief and having grandchildren the same age, it pains me to even view it, never mind see it used for any political purpose like it has been here.


*Bingo!!!*

Who does this for political reasons during an election, just trying to score political points over a tragedy that reaches far beyond Canadian borders... Shame!!!

How many other hundreds of thousands of people, children included, have died thanks to ISIS and now the picture of one dead child makes the world stand up and pay attention. 

Ridiculousness in the extreme.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Haha


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Haha


Another demonstration of intellect? Why am I not surprised?


----------



## FeXL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Great to see Rosie eat Chris Alexander alive last night. *Bravo CBC - we need more of you.* Then there's this morning's article with the dead boy on the beach. I trust Alexander is soundly defeated on October 19.


M'bold.

Well, well, well...

Statement from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada on the Kurdi family



> _"The plight of the Syrian people, including the events of yesterday, is a tragedy and we off our condolences to all those affected.
> 
> An application for Mr. Mohammad Kurdi and his family was received by the department but was returned as it was incomplete as it did not meet regulatory requirements for proof of refugee status recognition. There was no record of an application received for Mr. Abdullah Kurdi and his family.
> 
> *Canada did not offer citizenship to Mr. Abdullah Kurdi.*"​_


M'bold.

Yea, this country needs more CBC.

Defund the bastards. Now...


A Buzkashi Baby Poll Goes Horribly Wrong

From the comments:



> oh my , cbcpravda back peddling like a clown on a unicycle


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Get ready for change. October 19 is nearing. Voters only need to make up their minds about which direction to take to prevent a continuation of a decade of darkness.


----------



## rgray

SINC said:


> Posting that kind of photo for political gain is the most disgusting thing ever. I didn't think even Jimbo could stoop that low.


What I find even more disgusting is the hypocrical theatrical display of "disgust" at the posting of that picture without a whimper against the inaction and policy of the Harpo regime that is directly related this death.

This file was walked across the floor of the House of Commons and place in the hand of the Harpo Conman, Chris Alexander, Minister and Harpo minion. And yet nothing was done.

The photo has done more to focus attention of Canadians on the refugee problem than any other single event.


----------



## rgray




----------



## FeXL

Canada says it never denied a refugee application for Alan Kurdi and his family




> The Canadian government says it never denied refugee applications from the family of three-year-old Alan Kurdi, whose lifeless body on a Turkish beach Wednesday sparked an international fervour.
> 
> Earlier reports said Canada rejected a refugee application from the boy’s family in June. *But the boy’s B.C.-based aunt clarified Thursday, saying she had not yet submitted an application to sponsor his immediate family. In fact, she had applied for another member of her family, she said.*


In addition:



> Both the NDP and Liberals said the scenes of desperation playing out overseas make it clear the federal government must do more, *although they offered no new policy proposals.*


Pretty easy to holler from the cheap seats & offer no solutions yourself.

Further:



> “Hundreds of thousands of people fleeing horrors: We’ve got to step up to the plate, we’ve got to be part of an international solution, *we’ve got to start doing our fair share,” NDP Leader Tom Mulcair said.* “Harper has failed completely so far to do just that.”


What's this "we", pale face? You got a mouse in your pocket? If it's "our" problem, then why haven't "we" submitted a bill doing something about it?

All bold mine.



rgray said:


> This file was walked across the floor of the House of Commons and place in the hand of the Harpo Conman, Chris Alexander, Minister and Harpo minion. And yet nothing was done.


----------



## Rps

I think we need to take a breath and look at the real issue here with Syria. They are in the midst of a civil war with their government while at the same time battling ISIS and who knows what other groups joining in the fun. I would suspect most Syrians would like to stay in a peaceful Syria.

From where I sit the Syrian Government need to stop attacking its citizens and start fighting the off shoot groups. They U.N., which I would pull Canada out of if I was the PM, should get off its rear and have the World stop this carnage. By the way, where is the Arab League in all this......


----------



## eMacMan

Of course the west and Israel could also quit supporting the various groups that are attacking Syria.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> The U.N., which I would pull Canada out of if I was the PM,....


Bless you!


----------



## eMacMan

Thanks to Harperman's desire to squash all dissent, this little ditty which had less than 50,000 hits between its release in mid June and late August has gone viral. At that point the Harper goons stepped in and suspended Tony Turner as clearly writing and singing this protest song somehow impeded his ability to study migratory birds. <insert sarcasm emoticon> Thanks to news coverage of that attempt to squash dissent the video has had about half a million hits over the past 2 weeks.

Song here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei50lM6ab1c

Story here:
http://richardhughes.ca/tag/tony-turner-suspended-for-harperman/



> ...Turner’s union representatives told the CBC that Turner was being accused of having “violated the departmental code of values and ethics in that the writing and performing of this song somehow impeded his ability to impartially study migratory birds”.
> 
> 
> “We will stand up for its members who face the prospect of being disciplined for exercising their democratic rights as citizens. The supreme court of Canada has confirmed that public service workers, like all Canadian citizens, benefit from freedom of expression,” Debi Daviau, the president of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada (PIPSC), the union which represents Turner, told the Ottawa Citizen.
> ...


I disagree with some of the lyrics and agree with others but I sure as hell disagree with the attempts to interfere with free speech. But then that is the purpose of Bill C51 and Bill C13/C30/....(The anti internet privacy bill) and the real reason Harperman must go!


----------



## Macfury

Watching that video I am filled with embarrassment for the performers.


----------



## rgray

eMacMan said:


> I disagree with some of the lyrics and agree with others but I sure as hell disagree with the attempts to interfere with free speech. But then that is the purpose of Bill C51 and Bill C13/C30/....(The anti internet privacy bill) and the real reason Harperman must go!


:clap:


----------



## rgray

eMacMan said:


> Of course the west and Israel could also quit supporting the various groups that are attacking Syria.


A friend who until (too) recently was working in Syria tells me that, locally, ISIS is said to stand for "Israeli Secret Intelligence Service".......


----------



## Macfury

We need to set up a special Conspiracy Corner thread so you can hash that out!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Great to see Rosie eat Chris Alexander alive last night. Bravo CBC - we need more of you. Then there's this morning's article with the dead boy on the beach. I trust Alexander is soundly defeated on October 19.
> 
> Chris Alexander defends Canada's refugee response, blames media for ignoring crisis - Politics - CBC News
> Family of children found on Turkish beach were trying to come to Canada | Ottawa Citizen


Once again this has been going on for years. Countless number of adults and children have died. That is a fact.

What also is a fact is that relocating victims is not a solution in its own. You also have to end the war and cut off the snakes head.

This is not about immigration policy per say, but it is relevant, it is about shutting down ISSI and their supporters.

I am actually glad that this one story was told the international community has stood up and taken notice even though it has been going on for years.

Maybe Mulacair, Trudeau and May will begin to realize the gravity of the situation...

But I doubt it, they don't have the cojones to do what needs to be done and thus they would opt for polices that would produce more images like the ones we have seen.

By analogy... If someone has cancer all they would won't to do is treat the symptoms, where as the current Government would try to kill the cancer.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> By analogy... If someone has cancer all they would won't to do is treat the symptoms, where as the current Government would try to kill the cancer.


I am not a fan of Mr. Harper, but I do believe this is what he is trying to do. We have to leave the emotions stirred by the media out of our decision making process.

As an aside, Putin was rattling how the current refugee problem was West driven......so how many has Russia taken in?


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> I am not a fan of Mr. Harper, but I do believe this is what he is trying to do. We have to leave the emotions stirred by the media out of our decision making process.
> 
> As an aside, Putin was rattling how the current refugee problem was West driven......so how many has Russia taken in?


Turkey, Russia leaders blames West for migrant crisis - CNN.com

Well, Russia is blaming the west for this crisis. As well, I don't see the wealthy Arab countries coming up with any help.


----------



## Dr.G.

As Amnesty International recently pointed out, the "six Gulf countries -- Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain -- have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees."


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Any chance of advancing the date? This simpleton needs to be retired. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/topstories/harper-halifax-shipbuilding-video-1.3214922


----------



## Macfury

You're the simpleton Jimbo--read your own links.

!


skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Any chance of advancing the date? This simpleton needs to be retired.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/topstories/harper-halifax-shipbuilding-video-1.3214922


----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

^^^^
That was already posted.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## Vandave

The Syrian issue strikes me as faux outrage and a media created story. The media hates Harper so much that they see this as an opportunity to pounce on him. In the real world, I haven't seen a single person talk about Syria other than the usual moral aggrandizing Facebook posters. 

I was planning to vote Liberal this election, but this issue has pushed me back to Harper. Foreign policy by media is hardly a good policy for us.


----------



## CubaMark

*I have significant disagreements with Libertarians on a wide variety of issues, but it's hard to find fault with this article from the Ron Paul Institute for Peace & Prosperity (emphases added mine):*

*White House: Russian Military Action Against ISIS in Syria Would be 'Destabilizing'*

Today's lesson in how propaganda works: The rumor mill turns a trickle of a story early this week about "thousands" of Russian soldiers deploying to Syria any day -- a wholly unsourced story originating on an Israeli website -- into a torrent of hyperventilating about the "Russian invasion" of Syria. 

Today neocon convicted felon Eliot Abrams took to the Council on Foreign Relations website to amplify the Israeli article (again with no sources or evidence) to a whole new and more dramatic article ominously titled "Putin in Syria." Abrams adds "reporting" by Michael Weiss, who has long been on the payroll of viscerally anti-Putin oligarch Michael Khodorkovsky, without revealing the obvious bias in the source. Never mind, all Weiss adds to Abrams' argument is that the Pentagon is "cagey" about discussing Russian involvement in Syria before again referencing the original (unsourced) Israeli article.

*See how this works? Multiple media outlets report based on the same totally unsourced article and suddenly all the world's writing about the Russian invasion of Syria.*

Now the White House has gotten into the game. According to an article by Agence France Press,* the White House is "monitoring reports" that the Russians are active in Syria.

What reports?* The article does not say nor does the White House. Presumably the White House is referring back to the original (unsourced) Israeli article.

* * *​
*Apparently a year of US bombs is not "destabilizing." *

This is where the hypocrisy is so thick you could cut it with a knife. The US is illegally bombing Syria, illegally violating Syrian sovereignty, illegally training and equipping foreign fighters to overthrow the Syrian government, and has backed radical jihadists through covert and overt programs. 

*ISIS and al-Qaeda in Syria were solely the products of the 2003 US invasion of Iraq under false pretenses -- the lies of the neocons -- and after a year of US bombing ISIS seems as strong as ever while scores of civilians are killed by US attacks.*

All of this is perfectly fine and should never be questioned. But even the hint that the Russians, who have had to contend with their fair share of radical Islam and are much closer to Syria than the US, may have an interest in joining the fight against ISIS is met with hysterical reproaches by a White House that admits it has no evidence.

What is the White House afraid of?

* * *​
One might think that if the US was serious about defeating ISIS it would welcome involvement from Russia and Iran, both of which would like nothing more than to see the back of the Islamic State. One might think if the US was serious about defeating ISIS it would rethink its "Assad must go" policy and allow the one force that has the most incentive to defeat ISIS -- the Syrian Arab Army.

*Yet the US will only work with the same states that have trained, funded, and turned a blind eye to the radical Islamic fighters as they have poured into Syria over the past four years -- Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, etc.*

Conspiracy-minded people must be wondering why the US is so reluctant to accept assistance from forces that so earnestly and with such military capacity seek the end of ISIS while partnering with those forces that have done so much to create ISIS.​
(RonPaulInstitute)


----------



## eMacMan

Am I the only one who wonders why the bombs supposedly aimed at ISIS/ISIL or whatever it is called today, only seem to land on key infrastructure elements in Iraq, Syria, and Libya? Nations already devastated by western assistance.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Where's Joe Oliver? Why in Turkey, of course*
_It took a little more than two days, but we finally tracked down Joe Oliver, the finance minister of a country in recession—halfway across the world_










The game of “Where’s Joe Oliver?” is not an enjoyable pastime—least of all in the blistering heat. It’s been 24 hours since Maclean’s commenced its search for Canada’s elusive Finance minister, calling, emailing and now venturing into the midtown Toronto riding of Eglinton–Lawrence, where Oliver is running for re-election.

* * *​
At the repurposed storefront on Yonge Street where Oliver’s campaign is headquartered, requests for the candidate are greeted with rictus smiles and the phone number of his communications chief, Patricia Best. “He’s out canvassing,” a young aide says cheerfully, handing me a Post-It note.

When I ask where, I’m invited to call the number on the note, which I’ve already done to no avail.

* * *​
it turns out, Oliver was taking an unannounced trip to Turkey, where he made a surprise appearance at a G20 summit he’d initially planned not to attend. When spotted Thursday in Ankara, he told a Bloomberg reporter he’d taken the unexpected break from his campaign to safeguard Canada’s interests in a time of market turmoil. “This is obviously a period of international instability and turbulence,” he said during what the report described as a brief interview. “I felt it was important for Canada to be represented and to protect our interests and for me to have bilateral discussions.”

So there you go. Oliver’s talking about the economy, just not to Canadians—an arrangement that in the alternate dimension of Conservative communication strategy must make sense. Yet even by the Harper regime’s obsessively controlling standards, sidelining a 75-year-old front-bencher in the middle of a race seems an extreme, and possibly counterproductive, measure.​
(Maclean's)


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> View attachment 60001
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Man, that punctuation is brutal. Typical of the low-information voter in the anti-Harper crowd, I suppose.


----------



## Macfury

Gosh, what a bastard--he's at the G20!!



CubaMark said:


> *Where's Joe Oliver? Why in Turkey, of course*
> _It took a little more than two days, but we finally tracked down Joe Oliver, the finance minister of a country in recession—halfway across the world_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The game of “Where’s Joe Oliver?” is not an enjoyable pastime—least of all in the blistering heat. It’s been 24 hours since Maclean’s commenced its search for Canada’s elusive Finance minister, calling, emailing and now venturing into the midtown Toronto riding of Eglinton–Lawrence, where Oliver is running for re-election.
> 
> * * *​
> At the repurposed storefront on Yonge Street where Oliver’s campaign is headquartered, requests for the candidate are greeted with rictus smiles and the phone number of his communications chief, Patricia Best. “He’s out canvassing,” a young aide says cheerfully, handing me a Post-It note.
> 
> When I ask where, I’m invited to call the number on the note, which I’ve already done to no avail.
> 
> * * *​
> it turns out, Oliver was taking an unannounced trip to Turkey, where he made a surprise appearance at a G20 summit he’d initially planned not to attend. When spotted Thursday in Ankara, he told a Bloomberg reporter he’d taken the unexpected break from his campaign to safeguard Canada’s interests in a time of market turmoil. “This is obviously a period of international instability and turbulence,” he said during what the report described as a brief interview. “I felt it was important for Canada to be represented and to protect our interests and for me to have bilateral discussions.”
> 
> So there you go. Oliver’s talking about the economy, just not to Canadians—an arrangement that in the alternate dimension of Conservative communication strategy must make sense. Yet even by the Harper regime’s obsessively controlling standards, sidelining a 75-year-old front-bencher in the middle of a race seems an extreme, and possibly counterproductive, measure.​
> (Maclean's)


----------



## fjnmusic

I suppose Macfury will decry the letter spacing here too.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rps

macfury said:


> man, that punctuation is brutal.


+1


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Man, that punctuation is brutal. Typical of the low-information voter in the anti-Harper crowd, I suppose.



Forest, meet trees.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Kerning is passable considering the difficulty involved. Word spacing is really off.



fjnmusic said:


> I suppose Macfury will decry the letter spacing here too.
> View attachment 60010


----------



## BigDL

No worries of Jerry Bance Being A CPeeC MPee :lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

He should have peed straight into the sink, then flushed it out with water. 

Did he overcharge the customer?



BigDL said:


> No worries of Jerry Bance Being A CPeeC MPee :lmao::lmao:


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> He should have peed straight into the sink, then flushed it out with water.
> 
> Did he overcharge the customer?


This reminds me of the time I was in Roanoke Va. I rented a room in a budget hotel and noticed water on the floor in the bathroom. So I phoned the front desk and said " I gotta leak in my sink" , to which they said " go ahead".


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> This reminds me of the time I was in Roanoke Va. I rented a room in a budget hotel and noticed water on the floor in the bathroom. So I phoned the front desk and said " I gotta leak in my sink" , to which they said " go ahead".


I just flew in from Roanoke--boy are my arms tired....


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I just flew in from Roanoke--boy are my arms tired....


I think he misunderstood the question when someone said, " you're in politics?"


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> No worries of Jerry Bance Being A CPeeC MPee :lmao::lmao:



Maybe there was a company policy not to use the customer's washroom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

My Goodness is this the Beginning of an Epidemic?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> My Goodness is this the Beginning of an Epidemic?


Yes!



> Ala Buzreba, the Liberals' candidate in Calgary Nose Hill, stepped down after comments she made on Twitter as a teenager resurfaced. And the NDP's candidate in Nova Scotia's Kings-Hants riding, Morgan Wheeldon, resigned after deleted Facebook posts with comments about Israel were circulated by the Conservatives


.


----------



## BigDL

Not attempting to be pedantic but given the information you have provided along with mine, it seems we are at least halfway through an epidemic rather than at the beginning. 

Wouldn't you agree?

The other noteworthy item is the Blue team are 100% ahead of either the Orange Team or Red Team. The Green team are not on the scoreboard at this point in the spacetime continuum. 

Are you playing us all, by holding back a big zinger, awaiting the Bloc?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60033



His cup runneth over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

I think the CPC is under greater scrutiny is all. Politics does not attract the best and brightest despite the inflated salaries. As someone once said--it's Hollywood for the less attractive.



BigDL said:


> Not attempting to be pedantic but given the information you have provided along with mine, it seems we are at least halfway through an epidemic rather than at the beginning.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> The other noteworthy item is the Blue team are 100% ahead of either the Orange Team or Red Team. The Green team are not on the scoreboard at this point in the spacetime continuum.
> 
> Are you playing us all, by holding back a big zinger, awaiting the Bloc?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I think the CPC is under greater scrutiny is all. Politics does not attract the best and brightest despite the inflated salaries. As someone once said--it's Hollywood for the less attractive.



I'd be pissed off. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

.


----------



## SINC

Know the real truth about the oil sands:

How clean is our ‘dirty’ oil? You’d be surprised.


----------



## Rps

The trouble with those who support the environment is they only see the big picture through a limited lens. So, yes we have oil sands, but I would be more afraid of all the discarded cell phone batteries, dumped iPads and iPods, rechargeable watches, and soon, maybe, electric car batteries. Where is the rage for these items........


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wheeeeeeee! What a great weekend.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Remember when....whoopsie!


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> The Syrian issue strikes me as faux outrage and a media created story. The media hates Harper so much that they see this as an opportunity to pounce on him. In the real world, I haven't seen a single person talk about Syria other than the usual moral aggrandizing Facebook posters.
> 
> I was planning to vote Liberal this election, but this issue has pushed me back to Harper. Foreign policy by media is hardly a good policy for us.


Yep. The question is do you want Canada to be merely witnesses to what is going on or actual participants in the game and trying to defeat the opponent? The former is what happened in Rwanda the later is what we are doing now. I choose the later.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Forest, meet trees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Really? Quite the opposite.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60081


This is pure BS. I know of many Conservative candidates who are participating in public forums and debates and they are NOT being instructed not to do so.. If some are taking that approach it is their own decision but NOT from an edict from on high, although that is the way the media want to portray it despite the fact that it exactly the way Libs and the NDP are running their campaigns.

If you you think it it the Conservatives who are micromanaging candidates campaigns you are very mistaken.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> The trouble with those who support the environment is they only see the big picture through a limited lens. So, yes we have oil sands, but I would be more afraid of all the discarded cell phone batteries, dumped iPads and iPods, rechargeable watches, and soon, maybe, electric car batteries. Where is the rage for these items........


Yep +1.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Remember when....whoopsie!


Yes and there in lies the reality. Elections are not about policy, they are about photo ops and waiting for a blunder, even though it has nothing to do with policy just optics.

Thanks for posting that skippy you have just demonstrated how shallow Canadian politics has been for a very long time. Although I don't think that was your intention, you did a very good job.

Well done!!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I think the CPC is under greater scrutiny is all. Politics does not attract the best and brightest despite the inflated salaries. As someone once said--it's Hollywood for the less attractive.


Around here we call it Hollywood North. Same game, different location.

But I disagree about the inflated salaries. Lots of public servants make more money than the PM or Ministers, it is just a fact.

As for the best and brightest, well that is what you get when it comes to public opinion/an election and therefore the public gets what it voted for... They have no one to blame but themselves. Also just a fact.

Truth be told I kind of wish that Harper gets defeated just so the country will realize how good they had it... Just wait until Mulcair or Trudeau becomes PM to realize the mistake they made in voting for either one of them.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Truth be told I kind of wish that Harper gets defeated just so the country will realize how good they had it... Just wait until Mulcair or Trudeau becomes PM to realize the mistake they made in voting for either one of them.


Yep, that's it in a nutshell and shallow thinking Canadians who vote NDP or Liberal will pay a heavy price if either govern us after this election. Now is not the time for inexperience (and that applies to both Mulcair and Trudeau equally). Hoisting new sails mid-storm is never a wise move.


----------



## Vandave

screature said:


> Truth be told I kind of wish that Harper gets defeated just so the country will realize how good they had it... Just wait until Mulcair or Trudeau becomes PM to realize the mistake they made in voting for either one of them.


Part of me thinks I should vote NDP purely for this reason. 

I think we have some serious economic challenges in our country that need to be addressed and it's not happening. The quicker we realize it the better.

Mulcair thinks that we should lower the retirement age, which is one of the dumbest things I have heard in this campaign. Our country has low productivity and he wants to make it even worse by having fewer people working and putting more stress on those who have to foot the bill.

Nobody is talking about productivity and the link between it and standard of living.

Our immigration policy is a massive failure. Nobody born here in Vancouver can afford to buy a home. My income is in the 1% and I refuse to buy a home because it's ridiculous. We're not letting in the type of entrepreneurs and tech workers the Americans are. We're taking in people who want to hide ill gotten money and park it here, rather than put it to productive use.

I think the future of this country looks a lot like France or Spain. The population is entitled and we hate successful people and discourage entrepreneurs. So now, we're going to elect a French citizen to get us their sooner.


----------



## rgray

You hard core right wing acolytes really need to stop suckling the blue Kool-aid and have your heads exorcised from the orifices up which they have been crammed (apparently for years) and get some sunlight and air other than your own methane.....



screature said:


> ......... just so the country will realize *how good they had it*...


Are you referring to the seven deficits or the two recessions?



SINC said:


> ........... Now is not the time for *inexperience*.............


Aside from the deficits and recessions, what has ten years of so-called "experience" given us apart from reduced rights and americanised surveillance and marijuana at pharmaceutical prices??



Vandave said:


> Nobody is talking about productivity and the link between it and standard of living.
> 
> Our immigration policy is a massive failure. Nobody born here in Vancouver can afford to buy a home. My income is in the 1% and I refuse to buy a home because it's ridiculous. We're not letting in the type of entrepreneurs and tech workers the Americans are. We're taking in people who want to hide ill gotten money and park it here, rather than put it to productive use..


With your head where it clearly has been you obviously haven't noticed that Harpo and the Con-men are in fact have been in charge of those exact areas of policy for ten years!!!

Why would anyone want more of the same mismanagement or non-managrement???

Clearly the Con-men are not doing it or cannot do it, so why not try something else??

Around this 'neck-o'the-woods', Harpo and his fellow chunks are circling the bowl (as the expression goes).


----------



## Vandave

rgray said:


> Clearly the Con-men are not doing it or cannot do it, so why not try something else??


I was considering voting Liberal because I agree with their infrastructure deficit spending. That's good spending. Using money to retire productive people early isn't.

I also support legalization of marijuana.

I'm considering voting NDP to help sink this country faster because I think it gets us to the other end quickly.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60073












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----------



## rgray

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Posted just this morning.....


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Really? Quite the opposite.



Okay. Trees, meet forest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

First off, fukc you. Plain & simple.

If you can't conduct yourself in a more civil fashion than your opening paragraph, then all you really deserve is fukc you. And the hat you're wearing & the horse you rode in on.



rgray said:


> You hard core right wing acolytes really need to stop suckling the blue Kool-aid and have your heads exorcised from the orifices up which they have been crammed (apparently for years) and get some sunlight and air other than your own methane.....


Second, just on the offside chance that you're merely ears deep into a pail of beer & it's the booze talking, let's take a look at what the left has accomplished stateside since 2008:

1) The recession never ended in the US. Todate, 7 years later, the US is still in a recession, despite the injection of trillions of dollars in stimulus money. Obama has never balanced a budget &, up until recently, never even tabled a budget. Obama ran a deficit of over a trillion dollars every year he's been President, his spending as a percentage of GDP is 25% and, under Obama, the US national debt has increased by well over 50%! By all means, bring in Mulcair...

2) Real unemployment in the US is ~22%. In August, Canada's was 7%.

3) You think Canada's foreign policy needs work? Look to our neighbours to the south. I don't even have to go into detail here.

4) How about domestic policy? There has not been a president in American history who has been as divisive as Obama.

5) Obama took 4 years & billions of dollars to screw up a functioning health care system to the point where it is now: expensive, non-functioning & illegal.

6) Billions of dollars wasted on imaginary problems like "global warming"/"climate change", further billions wasted on imaginary solutions such as renewable energy. Fallout from these pi$$-poor decisions have skyrocketed the price of electricity & driven industry out of the country.

7) Until the Saudis forced oil prices to drop, the price of gasoline more than doubled under Obama.

I could go on _ad nauseum_. However, the above alone should give anyone with enough brain power to melt the snowflakes on their head pause for thought. That may not include you...



rgray said:


> Clearly the Con-men are not doing it or cannot do it, so why not try something else??


Yeah, why not? Hell, let's all vote for the Communist Party. They've never been in office, either. After all, how bad could it be? Great social programs!



rgray said:


> Around this 'neck-o'the-woods', Harpo and his fellow chunks are circling the bowl (as the expression goes).


Once again, look south. Under leftist Obama the whole country, not just one person, is circling the bowl.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I was considering voting Liberal because I agree with their infrastructure deficit spending. That's good spending. Using money to retire productive people early isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I also support legalization of marijuana.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm considering voting NDP to help sink this country faster because I think it gets us to the other end quickly.



It's interesting that even the Conservatives on this board do not seem to actually support Stephen Harper. "Better Off With Harper" is hardly a ringing endorsement. I'm not saying Mulcair is a wise choice—I strongly disagree with his assertion that the Senate needs to be abolished, a hollow threat at any rate—and I don't agree with the Liberals support of Bill C-51, but I really don't support Harper and his continual erosion of civil rights in Canada. He makes himself as unavailable as he possibly can, probably due to his paralyzingly fear of criticism. As far as choices this election, it's like rock, meet hard place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

FeXL said:


> First off, fukc you. Plain & simple.
> 
> If you can't conduct yourself in a more civil fashion than your opening paragraph, then all you really deserve is fukc you. And the hat you're wearing & the horse you rode in on.
> 
> 
> 
> Second, just on the offside chance that you're merely ears deep into a pail of beer & it's the booze talking, let's take a look at what the left has accomplished stateside since 2008:
> 
> 1) The recession never ended in the US. Todate, 7 years later, the US is still in a recession, despite the injection of trillions of dollars in stimulus money. Obama has never balanced a budget &, up until recently, never even tabled a budget. Obama ran a deficit of over a trillion dollars every year he's been President, his spending as a percentage of GDP is 25% and, under Obama, the US national debt has increased by well over 50%! By all means, bring in Mulcair...
> 
> 2) Real unemployment in the US is ~22%. In August, Canada's was 7%.
> 
> 3) You think Canada's foreign policy needs work? Look to our neighbours to the south. I don't even have to go into detail here.
> 
> 4) How about domestic policy? There has not been a president in American history who has been as divisive as Obama.
> 
> 5) Obama took 4 years & billions of dollars to screw up a functioning health care system to the point where it is now: expensive, non-functioning & illegal.
> 
> 6) Billions of dollars wasted on imaginary problems like "global warming"/"climate change", further billions wasted on imaginary solutions such as renewable energy. Fallout from these pi$$-poor decisions have skyrocketed the price of electricity & driven industry out of the country.
> 
> 7) Until the Saudis forced oil prices to drop, the price of gasoline more than doubled under Obama.
> 
> I could go on _ad nauseum_. However, the above alone should give anyone with enough brain power to melt the snowflakes on their head pause for thought. That may not include you...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, why not? Hell, let's all vote for the Communist Party. They've never been in office, either. After all, how bad could it be? Great social programs!
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, look south. Under leftist Obama the whole country, not just one person, is circling the bowl.



And here I thought I was being too subtle..... 

You pretty much rest my case for me. You point to no Harpo/Con-men accomplishment??? And yet you advocate more of the same??? Amazing feat of rhetoric, that......

And, for the record, I don't drink.

And further, this is the Canadian Political thread... You mention almost nothing about Canada..... - - which is, in point of fact, typical Harpo-acolyte rhetoric -- when someone ponts out a problem the true Harpo-ite points to something else....

When a citizen says "hey, wtf, we're in a recession"
Harpo says, "hey look - a terrorist"


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

rgay, that last post of yours is not up to standard. FeXL made some good points and you're not willing to address them.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> rgay, that last post of yours is not up to standard. FeXL made some good points and you're not willing to address them.


The man discredits himself totally when, in his point #6, he charactarises climate change as an "imaginary problem".....  

Enough said....


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> The man discredits himself totally when, in his point #6, he charactarises climate change as an "imaginary problem".....
> 
> Enough said....


He's absolutely right. However, if you've bought into it, I won't discredit your ability to think rationally about other things.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wheee....will Byrne get burned? Looks like Canada's repubs are sinking (no pun intended sink) fast. With just over a month to go there's still time to time to recover so don't give up kids. 

They better do something or they could be headed for a Mulroneyesque 2 seats. 

I think Harper should come out and say what he really thinks about climate disruption - here's the script "Let me be clear, the environment is functioning normally".

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...ll-numbers-rattle-conservative-camp-1.2552417


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I think Harper should come out and say what he really thinks about climate disruption - here's the script "Let me be clear, the environment is functioning normally".


He would be correct. There's nothing unusual about our climate.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> He would be correct. There's nothing unusual about our climate.



Well then, why continue to campaign by omission? 

Crazy cons! They had it all. 

😄😄😄😄😄😄😄


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy one of Harper's favourite muppets doesn't need this. Is Leitch a leech?

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/4124776


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nobody's perfect. Who hasn't urinated in a stranger's coffee mug, faked an orgasm to a call centre agent, or ambushed & handcuffed a woman?

View attachment 60137


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's a con gal that tells it like it is. 

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/08/cons...ation-fires-staffer-for-social-media-attacks/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Doyle - look out for the sweater:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts...rticle26256276/?click=sf_globe&service=mobile


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> They better do something or they could be headed for a Mulroneyesque 2 seats.


I hope something was learned from that experience! 

GET 'EM ALL!! 

Leave 2 and they breed!!!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

rgray said:


> i hope something was learned from that experience!
> 
> 
> 
> Get 'em all!!
> 
> 
> 
> Leave 2 and they breed!!!!



👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And the wheels on the bus go round and r????


----------



## Macfury

I guess one of the prime symptoms of Harper Derangement Syndrome is a relentless search for cheap memes.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Gee I wonder why Harper is toast after a decade of power?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...-survey-finds/article26270638/?service=mobile


----------



## Macfury

A decade in power? Time to celebrate!


----------



## FeXL

My point here is not to crow about Conservatives accomplishments but to illustrate how poor any alternative choice would be. However, if you go back & read my points 1 & 2, there are significant accomplishments noted in the face of a recession. 



rgray said:


> You pretty much rest my case for me. You point to no Harpo/Con-men accomplishment???


Your comment was clearly about alternatives to Harper & Conservatives, not about Conservative accomplishments.



rgray said:


> Clearly the Con-men are not doing it or cannot do it, so why not try something else??


A liberal under any democratic flag is still a liberal. Further, whenever a leftist Canadian gets slapped down with evidence of how all liberals conduct themselves, no matter what country they hail from, they immediately plaintively cry out, "...this is the Canadian Political thread!!!".

That's it? That's the meat of your argument? A tube steak has more substance....



rgray said:


> And further, this is the Canadian Political thread...


----------



## FeXL

There's a whole thread dedicated to the topic. Present your case & defend it.



rgray said:


> The man discredits himself totally when, in his point #6, he charactarises climate change as an "imaginary problem".....
> 
> Enough said....


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> My point here is not to crow about Conservatives accomplishments but to illustrate how poor any alternative choice would be.


It's not clear at all that an alternative would provide better results. It's like someone who sees water rising around them and says they're done building boats--time to see what happens when they let the water rise over their heads. 

I think a big problem is that half the Canadian population thinks that the government creates the economy and is simply unwilling to make it produce more for their specific needs.


----------



## Macfury

*Statement by the prime minister of canada*

*STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA TO MARK An HISTORIC MILESTONE IN THE REIGN OF HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II*

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement to mark an historic milestone in the reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II:



> “Laureen and I are delighted to join Canadians across the country to celebrate Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II becoming the longest reigning Sovereign in Canada’s modern era, surpassing the reign of her great-great-grandmother, Queen Victoria (r. 1837-1901).
> 
> “Her Majesty has served Canada with honour, distinction and great affection. Through her unfaltering dedication to all facets of our society – from our Aboriginal Peoples to the Canadian Armed Forces, from volunteers to charitable organizations – she has enriched our national life and has never wavered in her commitment to duty or to her Coronation Oath as Queen of Canada. For more than sixty three years, and through 22 Royal Tours as Queen, Her Majesty has won the hearts of her people by always shining a light on the best of who and what we are as Canadians. We are grateful for her service, which continues to remind us that the Crown is an essential part of the constitutional order of our country.
> 
> “Canada is pleased to mark today’s milestone and honour Her Majesty’s contributions to Canada through a range of celebratory activities, including the issuance of commemorative coins (Royal Canadian Mint), a commemorative $20 bank note (Bank of Canada) and a new stamp (Canada Post).
> 
> “As Canadians prepare to celebrate the 150th anniversary of Canadian Confederation in 2017, it would serve us well to mirror the Queen’s dedication to and affection for this great country and the rich diversity of her people. We look forward to welcoming Members of the Royal Family to join us in celebrating a country that remains the envy of the entire world.
> 
> “We wish Her Majesty health and happiness on this most joyous occasion and in the years to come.
> 
> “God save the Queen.”


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA TO MARK An HISTORIC MILESTONE IN THE REIGN OF
> 
> HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement to mark an historic milestone in the reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II:


Congrats to the Queen.


----------



## screature

What about the NDP satellite offices? Why is there no mention of it in the main stream media? Perhaps becuase the media are biased?

*Oh no that could not be true...*

The media gets off on creating false controversies when it comes to the government but ignore the failings of the Opposition and the crimes committed by the Opposition. 

Why does that not surprise me?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

Oh skippy you can do better than that... that is lame even coming from you.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Infighting and finger pointing - keep it up please.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> What about the NDP satellite offices? Why is there no mention of it in the main stream media? Perhaps becuase the media are biased?
> 
> *Oh no that could not be true...*
> 
> The media gets off on creating false controversies when it comes to the government but ignore the failings of the Opposition and the crimes committed by the Opposition.
> 
> Why does that not surprise me?


Seems to me, we had a Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government in charge when this all went down, *ON THEIR WATCH,* how come nothing was done about it.

Oh right! OGL=Epic Fail* was large and in charge of dealing of this issue. Nothing was accomplished. 

The Conservatives are only good on making announcements or pronouncements. Not to accomplish much, OGL=Epic Fail* is not, capable of getting anything tangibly done. However much of everything OGL=Epic Fail* tries to affect, the courts shall be required to sort things out.

* See signature


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> Seems to me, we had a Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government in charge when this all went down, *ON THEIR WATCH,* how come nothing was done about it.
> 
> Oh right! OGL=Epic Fail* was large and in charge of dealing of this issue. Nothing was accomplished.
> 
> The Conservatives are only good on making announcements or pronouncements. Not to accomplish much, OGL=Epic Fail* is not, capable of getting anything tangibly done. However much of everything OGL=Epic Fail* tries to affect, the courts shall be required to sort things out.
> 
> * See signature


You forgot the "Economic Action Plan'.....Bahahahaha!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Infighting and finger pointing - keep it up please.


Jimbo's insider's report. Hawww!


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> A decade in power? Time to celebrate!



Yes! Time to celebrate the end of tyranny! Go Harper go! Go back to the Opposition benches, if you don't resign first.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

fjnmusic said:


> Yes! Time to celebrate the end of tyranny! Go Harper go! Go back to the Opposition benches, if you don't resign first.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Someone cue the band (hey what happened to the drummer?) "And now the end is near and so I face the final curtain."


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

The NDP is losing ground as we speak!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60049



Bwahahahahahahaha!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Bwahahahahahahaha!!


.


----------



## SINC

Senior NDP aide to Tom Mulcair apologizes for tweets targeting Catholic Church - Politics - CBC News


----------



## SINC

Mulcair's Budget Plan is One We Can't Afford


----------



## SINC

I can only shake my head in disbelief:

NDP Jobs Minister wants to bring Syrian refugees to Alberta - The Rebel


----------



## BigDL

Ah Freak OUT! Le Freak C'est Chic

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1qQ1SKNlgY"]Le Freak C'est CHic[/ame]


SINC said:


> .


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v=h1qQ1SKNlgY



SINC said:


> Senior NDP aide to Tom Mulcair apologizes for tweets targeting Catholic Church - Politics - CBC News





SINC said:


> Mulcair's Budget Plan is One We Can't Afford





SINC said:


> I can only shake my head in disbelief:
> 
> NDP Jobs Minister wants to bring Syrian refugees to Alberta - The Rebel


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I can only shake my head in disbelief:
> 
> NDP Jobs Minister wants to bring Syrian refugees to Alberta - The Rebel


Sure, because Alberta has a lot of trouble filling the new jobs created by the NDP!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I heard they're targeting resettlement of 50,000 Syrian refugees in Prince Albert alone! Aye caraumba!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I heard they're targeting resettlement of 50,000 Syrian refugees in Prince Albert alone! Aye caraumba!


Saskatchewan?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's another winner of a Con candidate. Boy that Jenni Byrne is getting burned. 

http://www.pressprogress.ca/conserv...runk_women_latent_homosexuals_and_being_a_man


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9x0AHUa-E


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Seems to me, we had a Strong, Stable, Majority Conservative Government in charge when this all went down, *ON THEIR WATCH,* how come nothing was done about it.
> 
> Oh right! OGL=Epic Fail* was large and in charge of dealing of this issue. Nothing was accomplished.
> 
> The Conservatives are only good on making announcements or pronouncements. Not to accomplish much, OGL=Epic Fail* is not, capable of getting anything tangibly done. However much of everything OGL=Epic Fail* tries to affect, the courts shall be required to sort things out.
> * See signature


Your change is signature is not news to any of us who have seen your posts in the past.

Do you really think that your change in signature will make any difference in how we choose to vote?

If you do you are very delusional and have a sense of self importance.

But those traits are nothing new based on your past posts.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nobody's perfect. Who hasn't urinated in a stranger's coffee mug, faked an orgasm to a call centre agent, or ambushed & handcuffed a woman?
> 
> View attachment 60137


Uhmm...It was acted upon in a very swift manner.

Jenni Byrne was ingloriously sent home packing going back to Ottawa. 

She has no clue as how to win this election.

Finally she got demoted. I have been waiting for this for a long., long time.

Yay, finally.


----------



## rgray




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And here comes a little racial divide specialist help from OZ - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...boot-campaign/article26315392/?service=mobile


----------



## FeXL

Wet Coast pothead stung, & forced to resign.

Joy Davies, B.C. Liberal Candidate, Defends Past Remarks On Pot



> A Liberal candidate in British Columbia's Lower Mainland is standing by comments she made on Facebook saying that marijuana causes no harm to children and decreases domestic violence...


Ah, yes, yet another well informed lefty running for office.

But wait!



> _UPDATE - Sept. 9, 2015: Joy Davies has resigned as the Liberal candidate in South Surrey–White Rock. *The party issued a statement that her views did not reflect the values or the policies of the party.*_


M'bold.

Well, of course they don't...


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> .



And your point being? I never said I was a fan of Mulcair. I just really hate Harper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Your change is signature is not news to any of us who have seen your posts in the past.
> 
> Do you really think that your change in signature will make any difference in how we choose to vote?
> 
> If you do you are very delusional and have a sense of self importance.
> 
> But those traits are nothing new based on your past posts.


My signature is for some, who are delusional, they continually confuse our home grown despot for some other international despot. 

My signature(s) are an expression on my views people may or may not heed them but in some case to their own peril.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> My signature is for some, who are delusional, they continually confuse our home grown despot for some other international despot.
> 
> My signature(s) are an expression on my views people may or may not heed them but in some case to their own peril.


That irritating spelling error in your signature certainly inspires a sense of peril.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> The NDP is losing ground as we speak!


Likewise Harpo and the Con-men..............


----------



## Macfury

No, they have recently posted modest gains.



rgray said:


> Likewise Harpo and the Con-men..............


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> No, they have recently posted modest gains.



You keep telling yourself that. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh oh. More fun and games from the con criminal element next week - another Harper man (he just wasn't ready):

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/11/more-grief-for-harper-ex-advisor-bruce-carson-back-in-court-monday/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh boy. Just heard the new NDP ad beating on Harper and ending with "nice hair though". I almost spewed by morning java.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> That irritating spelling error in your signature certainly inspires a sense of peril.


Funny! I never thought, you would be the guy it bothers.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You keep telling yourself that.


Nope. The latest CTV/Globe/Nanos poll tells me that.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Funny! I never thought, you would be the guy it bothers.


To be honest, BigDL, I never had a problem with your signature.


----------



## FeXL

Perhaps Tom, like Justin, thinks that all the terrorists need is a big hug...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrVpw-ksp_Q#t=17"]Question for Mulcair: Exactly how do we "play a positive role for peace" with terrorists?[/ame]



> ...NDP leader Thomas Mulcair said if he were to become Prime Minister he would immediately stop fighting against the Islamic State terrorists.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy. CBC reporting that Harper appointed Senator Brazeau is expected to plead guilty to one count of simple assault, as well as a separate charge of possession of cocaine, in a Quebec court room next week.

Another good choice by Harper (he just wasn't ready).


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whew boy. CBC reporting that Harper appointed Senator Brazeau is expected to plead guilty to one count of simple assault, as well as a separate charge of possession of cocaine, in a Quebec court room next week.
> 
> Another good choice by Harper (he just wasn't ready).


Harpo is such good(sic) judge of people".......


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

rgray said:


> Harpo is such good(sic) judge of people".......



Nice hair too!👏😂


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice hair too!👏😂


If you like that hair sprayed helmet-head look........


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

rgray said:


> If you like that hair sprayed helmet-head look........


Or glued on look.....:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## MacGuiver

FeXL said:


> Perhaps Tom, like Justin, thinks that all the terrorists need is a big hug...
> 
> Question for Mulcair: Exactly how do we "play a positive role for peace" with terrorists?


Yeah I love this coming from the same guy bashing Harper for not doing enough for refugees? We and the international community are really not doing as much as we should to stop the root cause of the refugee crisis but he'd like us to tuck our tail between our legs and run for home. Leaving ISIL to butcher, rape and enslave people unfettered. Great leadership!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver said:


> Yeah I love this coming from the same guy bashing Harper for not doing enough for refugees? We and the international community are really not doing as much as we should to stop the root cause of the refugee crisis but he'd like us to tuck our tail between our legs and run for home. Leaving ISIL to butcher, rape and enslave people unfettered. Great leadership!


Bingo! No hypocrisy there.

While I see pacifism as morally wrong, if that's your bag, fine. Just don't get in my way while I'm defending me & mine...


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice hair too!👏😂


Jimbo when you posted that photo of your obeisance to the Queen, your hair looked exactly like Harper's!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper supports the troops though. 😆😆

http://www.buzzfeed.com/emmaloop/ca...e-damaged-or-pilots-were-injured-hu#.syEXzaBj


----------



## fjnmusic

.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whew boy. CBC reporting that Harper appointed Senator Brazeau is expected to plead guilty to one count of simple assault, as well as a separate charge of possession of cocaine, in a Quebec court room next week.
> 
> Another good choice by Harper (he just wasn't ready).



Yeehaw! We got ourselves another Rob Ford! 😜


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60234


Excellent!


----------



## Macfury

And the Conservatives are within a hair's breadth of taking first place as the NDP and Liberals continue to decline!

CBC News | Eric Grenier's Poll Tracker


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## screature

rgray said:


>


You retired scientists working for the federal government with your gold platted pensions are just too funny...

Guess what? You are just employees like the rest of us. 

You seem to think you and scientists working today for the Federal Government should have the temerity to speak for the government while you receive a paycheck from them. All that does is reveal your *political intentions*.

Scientists working for the Government should NOT be able to speak publicly about the work they are doing without Government approval cut and dry! They are doing a job nothing more and nothing less.

Truth be told I don't expect a retired scientist to understand modern day politics, it is far too complected,


----------



## rgray

screature said:


> You retired scientists working for the federal government with your gold platted pensions are just too funny...
> 
> Guess what? You are just employees like the rest of us.
> 
> You seem to think you and scientists working today for the Federal Government should have the temerity to speak for the government while you receive a paycheck from them. All that does is reveal your *political intentions*.
> 
> Scientists working for the Government should NOT be able to speak publicly about the work they doing without Government approval cut and dry! They are doing a job nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> Truth be told I don't expect a retired scientist to understand modern day politics, it is far too complected,


- - - I think you mean someone who is NOT me.

I may be a retired scientist but I never, ever 'worked for' the federal government in any capacity!

My research was entirely funded by NIDA, a part of NIH in the US. Where, somewhat ironically, scientists are actually obligated to speak about and publish their research.

I certainly do not have a gold plated pension from anyone, not that it is any concern of yours.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> What the f*ck are you smoking??? I think you mean someone who is NOT me.
> 
> I may be a retired scientist but I never, ever 'worked for' the federal government in any capacity!
> 
> My research was entirely funded by NIDA, a part of NIH in the US. Where, somewhat ironically, scientists are actually obligated to speak about and publish their research.
> 
> I certainly do not have a gold plated pension from anyone, not that it is any concern of yours.
> 
> When you sober up, perhaps you will have the dignity to explain to me how you came to attach the above rant to me.


Yep just another "scientist" working for the government who thinks he should be free to speak his mind despite the fact that he works for the government or a government organization. Did you really think I wouldn't research who you say you have worked for?

The urls all end in.gov. 

So you worked in the US and you seem to think that Canadian scientists should be free to do as they please despite jurisdictional differences? 

Who is smoking or drinking what now?

Get over yourself and while you are at it have the dignity to apologize to me for your unwarranted rant about my sobriety or lack thereof.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Wacko


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Wacko





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60250





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60258


You continue to embarrass yourself as always Jimbo.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

Yet another classy federal NDP candidate on Facebook:


----------



## rgray

screature said:


> - - - - - the dignity to apologize to me for your unwarranted rant about my sobriety or lack thereof.


Intemperate remarks have been deleted,


----------



## Macfury

It's pretty sad to see this thread devolve into a presentation of third rate editorial cartoons from various newspapers. Reminds me of a kindergarten current events class where the kiddies just cut out funny drawings.


----------



## Macfury

Most of the researchers I have dealt with on either side of the border have agreed to share details of their work only after a vetting process by their university or government agency.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yet another classy federal NDP candidate on Facebook:



And what makes you so sure that page was not created on her behalf? Swear to God there's one born every minute.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew another Harper scumbag this time from Alberta:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/mp-shory-accused-in-giant-mortgage-fraud-1.947432


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> Intemperate remarks have been deleted,


Thank you.

So let's restart fresh again.

We obviously disagree on many fronts and they may be impassible to get by but we can probably just agree to disagree.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's pretty sad to see this thread devolve into a presentation of third rate editorial cartoons from various newspapers. Reminds me of a kindergarten current events class where the kiddies just cut out funny drawings.


Agreed.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sore or sour losers.


----------



## FeXL

What evidence do you have that it was?



fjnmusic said:


> And what makes you so sure that page was not created on her behalf?


Yes, so who actually is it?



fjnmusic said:


> Swear to God there's one born every minute.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Yet another classy federal NDP candidate on Facebook:


Is it appropriate to re-post the BCBlue conservative hit machine's anti-NDP propaganda without context? Conveniently left out, it seems. 

There are no shortage of moments in which people are pushed to the limit and respond to a heated exchange without engaging the proper filter, and ehMac is testament to many of those. I won't criticize Swampy for her words taken entirely out of context and purposefully used in a political campaign to discredit her.

BCBlue has also dredged up photos of her husband's dead brother in a pose sure to shock the 'proper' social classes as further proof of _her_ unsuitability for office. Her husband gets dragged into this guilt-by-association, with no mention of who he is or what he does (again, context is deadly to these neocon hit pieces).

Here's Swampy's statement on this ridiculous kerfuffle:

_The photo in question was taken over five years ago and includes my husband Armand’s younger brother who passed away from suicide in 2013.

The death of his younger brother had an immense impact on Armand’s life. In addition to being an entrepreneur who runs his own construction business, repairing homes in the community and he works as a tattoo artist in a health inspected/locally owned shop, Armand speaks to kids in schools about getting an education and becoming functioning members of society.

He also councils suicidal youth in our community.

He is a loving and caring father of 5 and a supportive husband who helped me achieve a university degree and strive to further assist our community by bringing our voice to Ottawa.

In addition, in a past heated exchange on my Facebook page, profanity was used. I apologize for this language and to anyone who may have been offended._

(Katherine Swampy Facebook post, 12:19pm, 11 September 2015)​
*But hey, if y'all think you're better than the rest of us, keep on digging up the dirt.... it reflects more on you then on her.*


----------



## CubaMark

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60234


*This would be the same guy imported to the UK to do the dirty deeds of race-baiting for the Conservatives....*










*From "Meanwhile in Canada":*

This is the high-paid advisor Harper just brought in. He specializes in race-baiting. This is what they thought of him in the UK when he worked for Cameron. An Australian Senate inquiry found Harper's new strategist had fabricated a story in order to move public opinion against refugees just before an election. This is how low the right-wing will sink. Please pay attention Canada. This is NOT who we are.

*Children Overboard affair*​


----------



## CubaMark

Brian Aardvaark — ‎Harper's Last Day
*How is Lynton Crosby allowed to do this?*​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I won't criticize Swampy for her words taken entirely out of context and purposefully used in a political campaign to discredit her.


That's big of you! Of course you won't--because she is running for the NDP!!



CubaMark said:


> *How is Lynton Crosby allowed to do this?*


Seriously, are you just pretending on this one? I'll spell it out for you--because Lynton Crosby is not doing so directly--he is advising others on election strategy. That has to be one of the lamest posts you've copied in some time.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Seriously, are you just pretending on this one? I'll spell it out for you--because Lynton Crosby is not doing so directly--he is advising others on election strategy. That has to be one of the lamest posts you've copied in some time.


Avoid the issue again. And again. And again.

You have no problems with a proven liar, race-baiting, neocon political hack being hired by the Conservative party to 'advise' on issues of importance to Canadians? 

This is just how things are in politics, then? This is 'leadership' for Harper?

What a lovely worldview you have.


----------



## Macfury

Your outrage could power a small city, CM.

Lynton specializes in identifying wedge issues following focus group research. He advised John Howard in Australia based on Howard's evidence. If he helps the Conservatives to identify election strategies, then what is your problem?

He's a strategist--not a murderer like Fidel Castro for Pete's sake!





CubaMark said:


> Avoid the issue again. And again. And again.
> 
> You have no problems with a proven liar, race-baiting, neocon political hack being hired by the Conservative party to 'advise' on issues of importance to Canadians?
> 
> This is just how things are in politics, then? This is 'leadership' for Harper?
> 
> What a lovely worldview you have.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Your outrage could power a small city, CM.


IF only we could harness and store it. There sure as hell is enough out there to meet our energy requirements....



Macfury said:


> Lynton specializes in identifying wedge issues following focus group research. He advised John Howard in Australia based on Howard's evidence. If he helps the Conservatives to identify election strategies, then what is your problem?


His 'specialty' with Howard was in creating a fake story to inflame a political issue. How interesting to know that you're fine with that kind of politics. Lying, misdirection, misleading voters... the Conservative playbook personified.



Macfury said:


> He's a strategist--not a murderer like Fidel Castro for Pete's sake!


And now it's your turn again. Mislead. Misdirect. Avoid the actual issue. Typical.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> His 'specialty' with Howard was in creating a fake story to inflame a political issue. How interesting to know that you're fine with that kind of politics. Lying, misdirection, misleading voters... the Conservative playbook personified.


Did you read the Australian senate reports on the matter--or just consult your lefty outrage aggregator?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Did you read the Australian senate reports on the matter--or just consult your lefty outrage aggregator?


Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were research-impaired. Here's the executive summary of the Senate report, confirming that the government knew the children overboard story was bull**** and criticizing the presence of unaccountable government advisors who manipulated the government's message during the election campaign in question.

Or is there some other Senate report to which you are referring?

Get off it, man! You continue to distract and avoid the issue. Are mealy-mouthed manipulators of reality like Crosby really the kind of people you think are appropriate for Harper to be employing in the Conservative campaign?

We are judged as much by who we are associated, as our thoughts and deeds.


----------



## Macfury

Bravo, you've decided to look for the executive summary at this late date. No, the actual report. It doesn't mention Lynton Crosby at all. You and your cronies are engaged in a sad sack effort to connect Australian Liberal Howard's beliefs about that incident with Stephen Harper. 

You've failed.


----------



## Rps

CubaMark, the issue with people such as Crosby is that they can manipulate public opinion to the extent that countries will go to war, such as England and the famous crib death story. No matter what your political leanings, you cannot simply say it's okay to have people such as him on your team!


----------



## FeXL

Pot, meet kettle. How many times have you merely posted a link without context, explanation or comment on these very boards? And then took umbrage when the issue was raised?



CubaMark said:


> Is it appropriate to re-post the conservative hit machine's anti-NDP propaganda without context? Conveniently left out, it seems.


Much the same as the photo of that dead child on the beach was posted on these very boards a few days back to attempt to implicate Harper. Curiously, your indignance was suspiciously absent then.



CubaMark said:


> BCBlue has also dredged up photos of her husband's dead brother in a pose sure to shock the 'proper' social classes as further proof of _her_ unsuitability for office. Her husband gets dragged into this guilt-by-association, with no mention of who he is or what he does (again, context is deadly to these neocon hit pieces).


----------



## Macfury

So essentially one must not hire a political consultant who is effective at his/her job?



Rps said:


> CubaMark, the issue with people such as Crosby is that they can manipulate public opinion to the extent that countries will go to war, such as England and the famous crib death story. No matter what your political leanings, you cannot simply say it's okay to have people such as him on your team!


----------



## Vandave

It's amazing to hear people get angry about the Conservatives hiring somebody. Talk about false outrage. How about you get angry if they actually do something that 'offends' you, instead of being pre-emptively offended.

So you don't like a guy who plays divisive politics and tries to identify niche groups that you can play to politically? I guess that means all these people are also angry at Mulcair for trying to appeal to Quebec separatists.


----------



## Macfury

They didn't care when Layton laid his cards on the table for Quebec separtists and they don't care that Mulcair is following suit. Harper hired a _b-b-b-b-bad man_.



Vandave said:


> It's amazing to hear people get angry about the Conservatives hiring somebody. Talk about false outrage. How about you get angry if they actually do something that 'offends' you, instead of being pre-emptively offended.
> 
> So you don't like a guy who plays divisive politics and tries to identify niche groups that you can play to politically? I guess that means all these people are also angry at Mulcair for trying to appeal to Quebec separatists.


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

No--TWO new polls:

ThreeHundredEight.com



> Nanos is showing some movement, particularly compared to their last independent three-day sample. Compared to those numbers, *the Conservatives are up significantly*, the Liberals less so, and the NDP is steady. The other poll, by Forum, shows the NDP steady, the Liberals down, and *the Conservatives up*.


----------



## Vandave

The media in our country is such a joke. The are trying to create a narrative that the Conservatives are crashing with their poll numbers, when they dipped maybe 5% for a period there. That's hardly any type of crash and all the parties have been remarkably flat. 

Nobody is saying the NDP peaked and have started to crash. I think they got up to 36 and are around 31 to 32 now. That's almost as much of a drop as the Conservatives experienced. But somehow the narrative is that the NDP are surging. 

And people actually believe it.


----------



## rgray

Actual NANOS numbers clipped from their ,pdf (http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/20150910%20Ballot%20TrackingE.pdf)


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> So essentially one must not hire a political consultant who is effective at his/her job?


No, what I am saying is you shouldn't hire someone with a history of broadcasting falsehoods.


----------



## Rps

rgray said:


> Actual NANOS numbers clipped from their ,pdf (http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/20150910%20Ballot%20TrackingE.pdf)


The 10% undecided is the key don't you think.....


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> The 10% undecided is the key don't you think.....



Not necessarily. Often the undecided vote is just distributed in a prorated fashion so the overall popular vote does not change much. Or they just don't vote if they're that undecided.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Rex gets it, Tom doesn't . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePF6l4Xj6lc


----------



## FeXL

Rex notes:



> What a strange stance for a national leader to be taking.


It would be strange if, in fact, Mulcair was actually a leader attempting to represent the whole of Canada. Point of fact is, he's not. Not even close. He's attempting to get elected via the populations of Ontario, Quebec & BC, in addition to riding what he believes is a genuine "orange wave" in Alberta. Keep alienating Alberta & the West, Tom. It's the best thing you can do for us.

Poor bastard's gonna be disappointed come next month...


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> No, what I am saying is you shouldn't hire someone with a history of broadcasting falsehoods.


That would be Prime Minister Howard.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> The media in our country is such a joke. The are trying to create a narrative that the Conservatives are crashing with their poll numbers, when they dipped maybe 5% for a period there. That's hardly any type of crash and all the parties have been remarkably flat.
> 
> Nobody is saying the NDP peaked and have started to crash. I think they got up to 36 and are around 31 to 32 now. That's almost as much of a drop as the Conservatives experienced. But somehow the narrative is that the NDP are surging.
> 
> And people actually believe it.


Look at those dopey political cartoons that have no connection to reality. The parties are in a statistical dead heat according to these polls.


----------



## Captstn

rgray said:


> Actual NANOS numbers clipped from their ,pdf (http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/20150910%20Ballot%20TrackingE.pdf)


So I guess this shows that over 70% do not want another conservative government :clap:


----------



## FeXL

Pretty much identical numbers for the Libs & NDP. I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere...



Captstn said:


> So I guess this shows that over 70% do not want another conservative government :clap:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Pretty much identical numbers for the Libs & NDP. I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere...


That zinger from the Skipper was a real head-scratcher.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Look at those dopey political cartoons that have no connection to reality. The parties are in a statistical dead heat according to these polls.



This I agree with. I also believe it is possible to support Rachel Notley's NDP at the provincial level but not Thomas Mulcair's NDP at the federal level. They are two different things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Pretty much identical numbers for the Libs & NDP. I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere...



This is the often-touted argument from the right-wing poor sports in Alberta as well after they lost the last election in a big way, if you count the seats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> This I agree with. I also believe it is possible to support Rachel Notley's NDP at the provincial level but not Thomas Mulcair's NDP at the federal level. They are two different things.


Yes, they are two different things. For example, Notley is not a separatist.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper is finito. Advance the election date. The earlier the better.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Back to the usual Con business....another criminal trial!

Former Harper Adviser Bruce Carson To Appear In Court Monday


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> That zinger from the Skipper was a real head-scratcher.


It's exactly that sort of low information voter that the Liberals & NDP have come to rely on...


----------



## FeXL

Nope...



fjnmusic said:


> They are two different things.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

First time a Con candidate has knocked on my door in 15 years. I told him I will be strategically voting to dispose of Harper and asked him how it feels to live off the public trough through his $2M in federal contracts since 2008. He turned and left my property. Good riddance.


----------



## FeXL

And it's an odd-numbered Tuesday in an even-numbered month during a leap year.

Jeezuz, can you cherry pick any more? Startin' to sound like somebody defending global warming...



fjnmusic said:


> ...if you count the seats.


----------



## FeXL

Funny, I don't have to deal with the lefty candidates at all at our place. Guess the sight of the long-haired, bearded dirt-bag polishing his shotgun in the rockin' chair on the front porch is just a little bit too "real life" for the fantasy candidates to deal with...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He turned and left my property. Good riddance.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Amen


----------



## FeXL

Thank you.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Amen


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

welcome


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper's Canada.


----------



## rgray

FeXL said:


> It's exactly that sort of low information voter that the Liberals & NDP have come to rely on...


I find it tedious that the righties on this board frequently resort to both directly and indirectly personally insulting remarks to try to "make a point" and yet those same folks get their panties all knotted up if a lefty should use a similar tactic.

You guys need to decide which side of your toast you want buttered!!!


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> First time a Con candidate has knocked on my door in 15 years. I told him I will be strategically voting to dispose of Harper and asked him how it feels to live off the public trough through his $2M in federal contracts since 2008. He turned and left my property. Good riddance.


He was stunned because you look so much like Harper!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

rgray said:


> I find it tedious that the righties on this board frequently resort to both directly and indirectly personally insulting remarks to try to "make a point" and yet those same folks get their panties all knotted up if a lefty should use a similar tactic.
> 
> You guys need to decide which side of your toast you want buttered!!!


Their bread is buttered on Harper's side. They like him. Nuff said.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^

Man, that's weak cartooning. From now on just pick the best one of the day.


----------



## FeXL

If any of the "righties" on this board had used the selfsame numbers that the Captain did to illustrate that 70% of Canadians don't want the Libs or NDP in power, the "lefties" on this board would have (rightfully) denigrated us into the ground.

It's a moot point & adds nothing to the discourse. The post presented like one of those sycophantic Facebook postings with zero substance. Hence, low information. Sorry the truth hurts. Want an "Atta Boy!"? Bring something salient to the table.

Hint: Jimbo's third rate political cartoons ain't it. They reek of desperation...



rgray said:


> I find it tedious that the righties on this board frequently resort to both directly and indirectly personally insulting remarks to try to "make a point" and yet those same folks get their panties all knotted up if a lefty should use a similar tactic.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Nope...



Federalism. Division of powers between different levels of government. Look it up. It's a concept you'll find in the junior high Social Studies curriculum. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Awkward child photos.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Remember the Economic Action Plan? It's viewed as a failure by most Canadians. How much was the advertising bill for this monstrosity?

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...rvative-economic-plan-not-a-success-poll.html


----------



## SINC

This story especially for all the do gooders who are pushing the government to accept refugees right now. 



> *ISIS Terrorist Arrested in Stuttgart “Refugee” Center; “Boxes” of Fake Syrian Passports Intercepted*
> 
> An ISIS terrorist posing as an “asylum seeker” has been arrested by German police in a “refugee” center in Stuttgart, and German customs officers have seized boxes containing Syrian passports being smuggled into Europe.
> 
> According to a report carried by RTL’s German language service, the terrorist is a 21-year-old Moroccan using a “false identity” who had registered as an asylum seeker in the district of Ludwigsburg. He was identified after police linked him to a European arrest warrant issued by the Spanish authorities. He is accused of recruiting fighters for ISIS, where he acted as a contact person for fighters who wanted to travel to Syria or Iraq.
> 
> This first confirmed arrest of a bogus “asylum seeker” came simultaneously with the admission by a German finance ministry spokesman that “boxes” of fake Syrian passports, destined for sale and distribution to the hordes of nonwhite invaders seeking to settle in Europe as bogus “war refugees,” had been seized.


ISIS Terrorist Arrested in Stuttgart "Refugee" Center; "Boxes" of Fake Syrian Passports Intercepted - The New Observer

Islamic State reveals it has smuggled THOUSANDS of extremists into Europe | World | News | Daily Express


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's some good US content reminding Torontonians and Canadians of Harper's dimwit friendship with Mayor crackhead. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ideline-canada-s-harper-faces-toronto-shutout


----------



## Macfury

Mayor Crackhead was pretty good at controlling tax hikes. Maybe Justin Trudeau should try more crack and less weed.


----------



## SINC

And here is some good reading on our own economy that Mulcair and Trudeau want to destroy:

Ottawa posts $1.9B surplus for fiscal 2014-2015 - Business - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

Here's a concept for ya: All Dippers have the same DNA, whether Provincial or Federal. SSDP. Period.

I don't like using Wiki as a reference but, in the interest of expediency:



> Provincial New Democratic Parties...are organizationally sections of the federal party...


And:



> Unlike most other Canadian parties, *the NDP is integrated with its provincial and territorial parties.*


M'bold.



fjnmusic said:


> Look it up. It's a concept you'll find in the junior high Social Studies curriculum.


----------



## Macfury

Yup.



FeXL said:


> Here's a concept for ya: All Dippers have the same DNA, whether Provincial or Federal. SSDP. Period.
> 
> I don't like using Wiki as a reference but, in the interest of expediency:
> 
> 
> 
> And:
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.


----------



## Macfury

And the CPC is back in the lead according to the latest poll tracker:

CBC News | Éric Grenier's Poll Tracker

Looks like they have risen above the mighty memes and cartoons posted here.


----------



## FeXL

Yes, alla us evil small business owners.

Trudeau is one of the wealthy Canadians he says benefit from small-business tax deductions



> Liberal leader Justin Trudeau could draw on personal experience when he claimed that a “large percentage” of small businesses are used by wealthy people to shield income from taxation.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Trudeau himself was involved in at least three small business that were federally incorporated, one of which he used to receive income for paid speaking events he did between 2006 and 2011.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Was going through a folder of browser bookmarks yesterday that I hadn't visited in some time. Ran across the link to "Halls of Macadamia", a site I hadn't been to in a year or better. Still there, still serving up snark better than most. Brings a smile to my face...

Here's his take on Canadian Journalism covering alleged Syrian immigration documents.

Canuckistan Journalism 101



> Like everybody else, I'm sick and tired of the blatantly false propaganda that gets passed off these days as "*news*."


Emphasis from the link.


----------



## FeXL

Ah, yes, his handlers have coached his responses so much better.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hR8aXOsi0#t=154"]Trudeau's "first day as PM"? He'd "talk about climate change"[/ame]

Brilliant. In a recent UN poll, over 6 million people across almost every demographic worldwide have indicated that, out of 16 topics presented, Climate Change ranked dead last.

And, the Dauphin wants to talk about Climate Change on his first day.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> And, the Dauphin wants to talk about Climate Change on his first day.


Why not? It represents the single biggest wealth transfer and power grab he can imagine.


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> Ah, yes, his handlers have coached his responses so much better.
> 
> Trudeau's "first day as PM"? He'd "talk about climate change"
> 
> Brilliant. In a recent UN poll, over 6 million people across almost every demographic worldwide have indicated that, out of 16 topics presented, Climate Change ranked dead last.
> 
> And, the Dauphin wants to talk about Climate Change on his first day.


Worked well for Stephan Dion. :lmao:


----------



## Vandave

I have a good election ad that I think the Conservatives should run with...

All the leaders are at a restaurant and Muclair is up at the bar and buying everybody in the restaurant drinks. It's a big party. 'Drinks for everybody'! They all cheer when Mulcair is buying.

Elizabeth May is passed out at the table saying, 'I hate you guys'.

The bartender asks, 'who's paying the bill?" The camera zooms into the bearded guy in orange and he says, 'not me'. Somebody in the back yells, where's Trudeau? Cue to the alley and he's rolling a joint.

Mulclair then says, 'how about them?'. And then the camera zooms into a family enjoying dinner. Dad reaches into his pocket and runs out of money and eventually the kids end up paying the rest with some spare change.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Vandave

If anybody in the media from the right ran a comparable cartoon, you know the left would lose it, right?


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 60426


While I do think that PM Harper wants to recreate the Canadian Supreme Court in his own image, and I don't support C-51, I don't find this cartoon at all funny. Personally, I think that it is offensive.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> While I do think that PM Harper wants to recreate the Canadian Supreme Court in his own image, I don't find this cartoon at all funny. Personally, I think that it is offensive.


Agreed.


----------



## Vandave

Here's another election ad...

Santa Clair...

Santa Clair is dressed in orange and white and he's throwing out presents like there is no tomorrow. He's give to the bad, the naught and the not so nice thinking there is no end of presents to give out.

When he gets to the houses with children, he's left with no presents.

When they wake up in the morning, they have coal in their stocking.

Ya thanks Santa Clair...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Agreed.


This is getting spooky, Macfury. We are agreeing on too many issues. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

Another forgotten link from that folder I opened last night. Little series of expose's on CBC dirt...

CBC Exposed

Good reading.


----------



## FeXL

I think it's great, Dr.G. The more Jimbo & the left embarrass themselves like this, the better things will look next month for the right.



Dr.G. said:


> Personally, I think that it is offensive.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> I think it's great, Dr.G. The more Jimbo & the left embarrass themselves like this, the better things will look next month for the right.


Well, deep down, I am more left on certain issues than Jimbo (who is he exactly?), more moderate than some here, and even somewhat right of center on certain issues. Still, I don't like to sound off or get into online arguments over various issues. Open debates are fine, but some threads get way off the rails with name calling and other unkind comments.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> I think it's great, Dr.G. The more Jimbo & the left embarrass themselves like this, the better things will look next month for the right.


I think the pendulum swings both ways. It swung against the Conservatives for the first half of the campaign, but I think it goes the other way now. 

I am on the fence between Conservative and Liberal. The more the Left acts looney, the more I find myself heading Conservative again.

Everytime I hear an NDPer has 70% don't want Harper or that the NDP and Libs should merge because they are the same, the less likely I am to vote Liberal. There is a huge difference in my view and it offends me that dummies on the left try to characterize my vote as endorsing the NDP somehow. 

I don't hear Conservatives saying 70% don't want NDP.

If Trudeau wants my vote, he better be more clear on where he stands with the NDP.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

I think the NDP has cornered the indigent vote.

A strange cartoon considering the CPC is leading the polls.


----------



## Vandave

I think I have seen about 30 Harper cartoons and zero of Trudeau or Santa Claire. The media hates Harper so much because he doesn't play their game and plays them instead. So much butthurt.

I have seen so many editorials about their failing campaign yet they are in a three way tie, right where things have been for the last couple months. And some people even believe it.


----------



## Macfury

Yep. An election held today would see Harper squeak out a narrow victory against the Separatist and the Lotus Eater.



Vandave said:


> I think I have seen about 30 Harper cartoons and zero of Trudeau or Santa Claire. The media hates Harper so much because he doesn't play their game and plays them instead. So much butthurt.
> 
> I have seen so many editorials about their failing campaign yet they are in a three way tie, right where things have been for the last couple months. And some people even believe it.


----------



## SINC

For goodness sakes folks, we must get more of these people into Canada RIGHT NOW! Mulcair and Trudeau think they are just fine . . .

And so It begins...ISIS Flag Among Refugees in Germany Fighting the Police [Pictures]


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> For goodness sakes folks, we must get more of these people into Canada RIGHT NOW! Mulcair and Trudeau think they are just fine . . .
> 
> And so It begins...ISIS Flag Among Refugees in Germany Fighting the Police [Pictures]


*Don, please, stop reading those far-right-wing hate sites. All they're doing is poisoning your mind and spreading disinformation. It's quite disturbing.*

*About Those "4000 ISIS Terrorists Smuggled Into Europe As Refugees" Story...*

_The claim that Daesh is encouraging people to flee is in direct opposition to the group's official publications.

2) "4000 fighters" is a ridiculous number of fighters for an organization the size of Daesh. Daesh is estimated to have a core of only 20k-32k fighters. When you include local militias in areas under their control, less motivated conscripts, etc, the number rises to around 100k, and when you include police, border guards, etc the number could be as high as 200k; however, these are not what you would call "sleeper cells". Sending 4000 core members into Europe - up to 20% of those ideologically motivated to support them - at a time when Daesh is desperately fighting to advance toward Damascus and overthrow Assad and hold onto their assets in Iraq, is an absurdity.

3) The flow of radicals goes in the opposite direction. Counterintuitively, Daesh is much more popular in Europe than in the Middle East. Daesh's popularity in the Middle East ranges from 5% in Saudi Arabia to almost zero percent in Lebanon. Yet Daesh enjoys 7% popularity in the UK and a whopping 16% popularity in France.

Daesh has long encouraged Europeans to come to Syria to fight, and only to take part in terrorist actions in Europe if they are unable to come join them. So what exactly would be the point of encouraging people to come to Syria, while sending others back into Europe (where they'll be subject to months of delays, huge risks of being killed, huge risks of being caught, and constant scrutiny)? A bizarre game of musical chairs?_(DailyKOS)​


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ontari-ari-ari-O!

Kiss power good bye Harper. 

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N11J0LK20150915


----------



## Macfury

308 shows the CPC is pulling ahead!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Done like dinner. 

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/opinion/commentary/2015/09/15/stephen-harper-is-done-gwyn.html


----------



## Macfury

The stink of desperation is emanating from you, Jimbo!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Done like dinner.
> 
> http://m.thestar.com/#/article/opinion/commentary/2015/09/15/stephen-harper-is-done-gwyn.html


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *Don, please, stop reading those far-right-wing hate sites. All they're doing is poisoning your mind and spreading disinformation. It's quite disturbing.*


Sorry to disappoint you Mark, but the BBC is not exactly a “far-right-wing hate site" as you describe them.

Things like this type of ingratitude certainly do not endear these people to many of us. Ingrates.



> “After the new Hungarian laws came into effect at midnight (22:00 GMT Monday), police sealed a railway crossing point that had been used by tens of thousands of migrants.
> 
> Around midday there were tense scenes as hundreds streamed towards the fence, *some searching for a way through and others starting a sit-down strike, throwing down food and water in protest at not being granted passage.*”


Migrant crisis: Hungary declares emergency at Serbia border - BBC News


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Sorry to disappoint you Mark, but the BBC is not exactly a “far-right-wing hate site" as you describe them.


Your link was to an aggregator (News360.com) with content pulled from the *Conservative Post*. Where's the BBC in all of that?



SINC said:


> Things like this type of ingratitude certainly do not endear these people to many of us. Ingrates.
> 
> Migrant crisis: Hungary declares emergency at Serbia border - BBC News


The right-wingers have also made much of this story, with the typical tactic of throwing up imagery out of context, with no effort to seek understanding, and letting already-prejudiced readers believe what they are already inclined to believe. No context. No analysis. That's the right-wing's modus operandi.

Here's one response to the "throwing away food" issue of the day: Why do refugees in Hungary throw away the food they receive? - Quora


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Here's one response to the "throwing away food" issue of the day: Why do refugees in Hungary throw away the food they receive? - Quora


None of these possibilities:



> What type of food was being offered. As John points out, certain foods are considered Haram, forbidden by Muslims. This includes pork, but other types of food as well. In addition, if the food was unfamiliar, people may reject it simply because they don't know what it is.
> I doubt the Hungarians would supply spoiled food, but the refugees may not trust it.
> It may have been a protest. The Hungarians have denied the trains from passing through, and the denial of the supplies may have been in protest to their treatment. By going hungry, or possibly starving, the refugees put the pressure on the Hungarians by creating a media issue.


justify throwing away the food.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> 308 shows the CPC is pulling ahead!


Ahead of what?

Figures from ThreeHundredEight.com Today (Sept15) are:







Which show the Con-men running LAST of the three main parties.


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> Ahead of what?


Look at the number of seats they would win in the Polltracker.


----------



## FeXL

Perfect. Keep talking, Justin. Far more people in this country worried about their tax dollars than green infrastructure.

Justin Trudeau pledges $20 billion for green infrastructure over the next decade to stimulate economy



> Speaking in Trois-Rivieres, Que., Trudeau detailed how the party would invest in green infrastructure in a bid to stimulate the Canadian economy.
> 
> The price tag of this commitment is nearly $6-billion over a four year period and almost $20 billion over the next decade.


----------



## FeXL

Oh, loving this. Excellent read.

When a war room fails a leader: Trudeau, truthiness and the economy



> Last Friday, every newsroom and, one would assume, every campaign war room in the country, would have seen the following advisory from the Department of Finance:
> 
> _The Department of Finance will release the Annual Financial Report of the Government of Canada at 9:00 a.m. ET on Monday, September 14, 2015.
> 
> The Annual Financial Report summarizes the Government’s financial results for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2015, including the budgetary balance. The Department is also releasing updated Fiscal Reference Tables, which provide annual data on the financial position of the federal, provincial-territorial and local governments.​_
> And everyone who saw that would have immediately understood its importance. This Annual Financial Report (AFR), with numbers verified by the Auditor General of Canada, would tell us once and for all whether the Stephen Harper Conservatives ran their 7th consecutive deficit for the 12-month period ending on March 31, 2015 (known for the rest of this post as fiscal 2015 or FY15) or broke free and ran a surplus.


It goes downhill for Justin from there.

Once again, perfect...


----------



## MacGuiver

FeXL said:


> Oh, loving this. Excellent read.
> 
> When a war room fails a leader: Trudeau, truthiness and the economy
> 
> 
> 
> It goes downhill for Justin from there.
> 
> Once again, perfect...


Had some creative spin on my Facebook wall from a die hard Liberal Union guy. The cartoon he posted (Left seem to rely heavily on cartoons) pointed out how Harper got his budget surplus by "Unspent" money. Saying it really isn't a balanced budget since he had "unspent" money in different departments. Hell I wish they'd "unspend" a whole lot more.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Court says cool!


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Back to the usual Con business....another criminal trial!
> 
> Former Harper Adviser Bruce Carson To Appear In Court Monday


Uhhmm this happened AFTER he worked for the Conservatives. You are clutching at straws with the one, even the MSM says as much. With your one sided approach to politics maybe you should considering emigrating to, Russia, Cuba, or North Vietnam, etc. where such one sided blindness is appreciated, even lauded.. You could be a folk hero.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper is finito. *Advance the election date. The earlier the better*.


You are so ignorant of the Canadian Election process it is completely astounding...

So in your books when one party is polling well they should be able to advance the date of the election to serve their purposes?????

I am biting my tongue here....... How can I put this politely........

I can't think of a way so I won't even try. You wouldn't get it anyway.


----------



## Macfury

Advance the date to today and Harper would be Prime Minister.


----------



## CubaMark

Some numbers that might help to elaborate the state of Canada's oil industry...

*Norway and Canada: Economic and fiscal management of petroleum wealth*










*Ownership*

The Norwegian state owns 80% of its petroleum production and transportation infrastructure.

In Canada, petroleum production and transportation infrastructure is 100% owned by foreign and domestic private companies as well as foreign state-owned companies, including from China, France, Korea, Malaysia and Norway and Thailand. Publicly owned Canadian companies—Petro-Canada and Alberta Energy Corporation—were fully privatized in the 1980s and 1990s.

* * *​*Capturing the petro-surplus*

The Norwegian government captures an estimated 85% of the petroleum economic surplus, mainly through high taxes on producers and directly through the state corporation, SDFI.

The petro-surplus captured by the Alberta government (mainly through its royalty system) is among the lowest of all petroleum producing jurisdictions.

Norway realized revenues of $87.69 per barrel of oil in 2013 while Alberta took in only $4.38 per barrel— one-twentieth what Norway appropriated. The Canadian government captures a very small portion of this surplus through its 15% federal corporate tax rate.​(BehindTheNumbers)​


----------



## Macfury

I vote for the Canadian oil system to suit the entirely different economic reality of the Canadian oil sands.


----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver said:


> Had some creative spin on my Facebook wall from a die hard Liberal Union guy. The cartoon he posted (Left seem to rely heavily on cartoons) pointed out how Harper got his budget surplus by "Unspent" money. Saying it really isn't a balanced budget since he had "unspent" money in different departments.


ROTFLMAO! I wonder how the hell he thinks the rare & elusive Liberal budget surplus occurs. What an idiot. Thing is, he's not alone in that line of thought. Once again, the low information voters...



MacGuiver said:


> Hell I wish they'd "unspend" a whole lot more.


No kidding.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh my gawd! 

Jenni Byrne's brother-in-law broke ethics rule by joining lobby firm


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

,


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

,


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Some numbers that might help to elaborate the state of Canada's oil industry...


Low Oil Prices Prompt Statoil To Cut Even More Jobs | Zero Hedge



> Once more Statoil is reducing its richest asset – employees – in order to keep financial losses to a minimum because of low oil prices. It will eliminate up to 1,500 full-time jobs and 500 temporary consultant positions by the end of 2016.
> 
> “We regret the need for further reductions,” Statoil Chief Operating Officer Anders Opedal said June 16, “but the improvements are necessary to strengthen Statoil’s competitiveness and secure our future value creation.
> 
> The goal is to save $1.7 billion per year beginning in 2016 under a cost-savings plan drawn up in 2013. Its original goal was merely to corral spending, which had risen gradually during the previous decade. The company saw a stronger need to save after the price of oil collapsed beginning in late June 2014.
> And while Statoil is maintaining its dividend for shareholders, it is reducing capital spending by 10 percent to about $18 billion for 2015 alone.
> 
> So far, Statoil – two-thirds of which is owned by the government of Norway – has postponed and even abandoned energy exploration projects in its effort to save money, and has eliminated the jobs of 1,340 full-time employees and 995 consultants since the end of 2013.
> 
> Now the company will go further, eliminating between 1,100 and 1,500 full-time positions and 525 consultant jobs, or about 7 percent of its remaining workforce. More specific numbers won’t be available until sometime this fall.


Norway continues to reduce its ownership in Statoil, because it has hampered the company's competitiveness.

It would continue to invest in the Alberta oil sands:

Statoil halts multibillion-dollar Alberta oil sands project - The Globe and Mail



> Norway’s Statoil ASA has shelved a multibillion-dollar oil sands project, blaming rising construction costs and the repeated delays in new export pipelines that would boost the value of Canadian heavy crude oil.


Except we won't build a damned pipeline!!


----------



## rgray

rgray said:


> Ahead of what?
> 
> Figures from ThreeHundredEight.com Today (Sept15) are:
> View attachment 60498
> 
> Which show the Con-men running LAST of the three main parties.





Macfury said:


> Look at the number of seats they would win in the Polltracker.


Which serves to highlight the difference between votes and seats.

I can understand why the righties are depressed. When you look at the polls versus the last parliament you can see that Harpo has toiletted a large majority for his current position in a three way tie!!

This must be that "leadership" that Harpo rattles on and on about _ad nauseum_. He has led the Con-men from a majority into mediocrity......


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> Which serves to highlight the difference between votes and seats.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand why the righties are depressed. When you look at the polls versus the last parliament you can see that Harpo has toiletted a large majority for his current position in a three way tie!!
> 
> 
> 
> This must be that "leadership" that Harpo rattles on and on about _ad nauseum_. He has led the Con-men from a majority into mediocrity......



Harper peaked in 2011. 

He went from opposition to gov't in 2006 with a minority and again, same thing in 2008, mainly because Canadians thought they'd give him a chance but they didn't really trust him. His arrogance really emerged after 2011 and now it's time to put the reigns on. 

Albertans have already resoundingly rejected Harper's man, Jim Prentice, back in May, and his face might as well be on milk cartons now. No matter what, even if Harper wins another minority gov't in October, after almost ten years, people are looking for a change. Even if the Libs or NDP are no better, at least they are different. 

The moon waxes and wanes. Things that go up get pulled back down by gravity. It is a natural phenomena, and Harper peaked long ago. His own party will turf him if the PC's get less seats than last time. The writing's already on the wall in ultra-conservative Alberta, which used to be solid blue at one time, federally and provincially. People want change, and Harper does not represent change. It doesn't even matter if Harper is a better leader, which truthfully, he probably is, at least at the moment. He has confidence that comes from experience. He's smoother and more polished. But it doesn't matter, because people want change. 

It will be weird to see the country divided up three ways though. Weird, but not unprecedented.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Whoever wins I hope they have the best interests of our county at heart.

I think they all feel they are doing that... now it is just the public to decide and the choirs of which we are all part of will keep singing until the final moment .. and after that I am sure the choirs will continue singing...

Such is life is a democracy.


----------



## Macfury

I'm not depressed at all!



rgray said:


> Which serves to highlight the difference between votes and seats.
> 
> I can understand why the righties are depressed. When you look at the polls versus the last parliament you can see that Harpo has toiletted a large majority for his current position in a three way tie!!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## CubaMark

*Information commissioner taking PMO to court over withholding Senate documents*

The information commissioner is taking the Prime Minister's Office to court, accusing it of refusing to release documents about four senators embroiled in scandal.

The Canadian Press filed an access-to-information request to the Privy Council Office, the central bureaucracy serving the prime minister and cabinet, in August of 2013 asking for any records created since March relating to senators Mike Duffy, Mac Harb, Patrick Brazeau or Pamela Wallin.

The PCO identified 28 pages of responsive records, but withheld 27 of those pages, releasing just two emails in which its staff discussed similar access-to-information requests.

PCO claimed every single word on every single one of those 27 pages might jeopardize solicitor-client privilege, or reveal personal information, or third-party information, or details on secret deliberations.

The Canadian Press went to the federal information commissioner, who found the complaint well-founded and recommended the prime minister release "a significant amount" of additional information.

But the Prime Minister's Office withheld the "vast majority" of the records and the information commissioner is now asking Federal Court to order the prime minister to disclose any records that don't warrant being withheld under certain sections of the Access to Information Act.

The Prime Minister's Office "erred in fact and in law" in relying on the aforementioned sections of the act to withhold the records, the information commissioner said in the court application.​
(National Observer)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Information commissioner taking PMO to court over withholding Senate documents*
> 
> The information commissioner is taking the Prime Minister's Office to court, accusing it of refusing to release documents about four senators embroiled in scandal.
> 
> The Canadian Press filed an access-to-information request to the Privy Council Office, the central bureaucracy serving the prime minister and cabinet, in August of 2013 asking for any records created since March relating to senators Mike Duffy, Mac Harb, Patrick Brazeau or Pamela Wallin.
> 
> The PCO identified 28 pages of responsive records, but withheld 27 of those pages, releasing just two emails in which its staff discussed similar access-to-information requests.
> 
> PCO claimed every single word on every single one of those 27 pages might jeopardize solicitor-client privilege, or reveal personal information, or third-party information, or details on secret deliberations.
> 
> The Canadian Press went to the federal information commissioner, who found the complaint well-founded and recommended the prime minister release "a significant amount" of additional information.
> 
> But the Prime Minister's Office withheld the "vast majority" of the records and the information commissioner is now asking Federal Court to order the prime minister to disclose any records that don't warrant being withheld under certain sections of the Access to Information Act.
> 
> The Prime Minister's Office "erred in fact and in law" in relying on the aforementioned sections of the act to withhold the records, the information commissioner said in the court application.​
> (National Observer)


I hope those records are released in a couple of months.


----------



## SINC

Another day, Another gaffe . . .

Reality Check: Trudeau’s claim Harper slashes funding to balance budget falls flat - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Whoever wins I hope they have the best interests of our county at heart.
> 
> I think they all feel they are doing that... now it is just the public to decide and the choirs of which we are all part of will keep singing until the final moment .. and after that I am sure the choirs will continue singing...
> 
> Such is life is a democracy.


An interesting and truthful posting, screature. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## rgray




----------



## Vandave

So who's ready for a Great Leap Forward?

I know I am... #ThommunistManifesto


----------



## Macfury

rgray are you simply posting every cartoon you can find with Stephen Harper in it?


----------



## FeXL

While the leftys post cartoons, the NDP reveal their true colours...

Manifesto backed by prominent NDP supporters released ahead of election



> As Tom Mulcair attempts to convince Canadians that the NDP is a moderate choice in the upcoming federal election, a number of prominent party supporters have strategically released a *radical manifesto* ahead of the Oct. 19 vote.


M'bold.

Huh?



> The “leap manifesto,” *signed by a number of prominent NDP supporters*, including former Ontario NDP leader Stephen Lewis, is probably not welcome news for Mulcair.


M'bold.

So, what is it?



> The document, signed by more than 100 actors, musicians, aboriginal leaders, environmentalists, labour unions and other activists, *pressures the next government to ease Canada entirely off fossil fuels by 2050 while restructuring the economy in the process. *
> 
> According to the manifesto document, *that transformation would turn the entire capitalist system into a Utopia* where the economy is "in balance with the earth's limits," jobs "are designed to systematically eliminate racial and gender inequality," agriculture is "far more localized and ecologically based," and low-carbon sectors of the economy, such as caregiving, the arts and social work, prosper.


Jeezuz. Pipe dreams & unicorn farts...

Yes, by all mean, elect the "moderate" NDP. Not a bunch of Fruit Loops or Whackos at all. Nosiree.

Oh, & just in case you think this concept has sound roots, here's an article I'm going to cross-post on the Alternative Energy thread on the plausibility of going to 100% Renewables (Hint: Ain't gonna happen...)

100% Renewables Myth Destroyed



> _Think Climate analysis found that no constraints had been applied to the cost, speed of roll-out, materials requirements, support or planning concerns for each system. *None of the proposed systems was found to be feasible, with some demand forecasts used describing "a world that doesn’t exist and probably won’t".*​_


M'bold.

Keep talking Tom. Every time you & Justin open your mouths, you lose votes & voters. And, still a month of campaigning ahead. YeeHaw!


----------



## FeXL

More from the "Keep Talking, Tom" file.

Mulcair under fire for calling Toronto 'Canada's most important city'



> "I think that seeing Canada's most important city, Toronto, getting those Olympics – I think that's a door we should keep open," Mulcair said.
> 
> It's not the first time Mulcair has referred to Toronto in such terms.


----------



## rgray




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yet another example of why these scuzzbuckets are dead. :

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ott...deal-to-quiet-dissent-on-c-51-gun-group-says/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

When Gilles Duceppe was a Maoist-


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> When Gilles Duceppe was a Maoist-
> 
> View attachment 60610


Good grief, didn't know he had been a nutcase that long!


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Good grief, didn't know he had been a nutcase that long!


Mulcair is a Maoist now!


----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

^

You missed a few more, like this one for example. 

Chris Austin, Liberal candidate, pulled for views 'irreconcilable' with party values - Politics - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Meh. More Con inconsistency. But what else is new?

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/16/veil...s-dog-whistle-pitch-for-the-anti-muslim-vote/


----------



## Macfury

308 shows the CPC widening its lead.

Looks like the separatist NDP is scooping up all of the BQ support. I would agree that the NDP gives them their best shot at independence.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> 308 shows the CPC widening its lead.
> 
> Looks like the separatist NDP is scooping up all of the BQ support. I would agree that the NDP gives them their best shot at independence.


Yep with Mulcair saying 50 +1 is enough of a vote to separate from Canada.

It makes me laugh...

The PQ created forced fusion of municipalities on us without any public consultation and then when the QC Libs won the election under Charest he said that dissenting municipalities could have a say by conducting a public referendum... Sounded good until you read the details of what needed to be achieved. 60% of the vote and only valid if 50% of the public turned out to vote. But it does not stop there, the "referendum" was held on a Sunday and also it was Father's Day.

So even the Liberals in Quebec don't see 50 +1 as being a valid vote for "separation" even at the municipal level of government.

In Aylmer we far surpassed 60% of the vote threshold, but due to the fact that the referendum date was skewed to get a low turn out rate we did note achieve the 50% turnout rate that was "required".

So the provincials Libs are ok with gerrymandering the results of a provincial/municipal referendum so why should we not think it is not possible for a Separatist government in Quebec to do so as well?

If 50+1 is not good enough for a municipal/provincial referendum why should it be good enough for the province of Quebec to separate from the country of Canada...

Inquiring minds want to know, someone please explain it to me as I see no consistency in logic.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> 308 shows the CPC widening its lead.
> 
> Looks like the separatist NDP is scooping up all of the BQ support. I would agree that the NDP gives them their best shot at independence.



The 308 numbers (Week 7: NDP 31.2% CPC 29.6% LPC 29.5% GPC 5.7% BQ 3.3%) still show that 70.4% of people want someone other than the Con-men!!!


----------



## Vandave

rgray said:


> The 308 numbers (Week 7: NDP 31.2% CPC 29.6% LPC 29.5% GPC 5.7% BQ 3.3%) still show that 70.4% of people want someone other than the Con-men!!!


It's such a strange thing to say when it could be said of any party. 

Don't embrace stupidity. You're better than that.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> It's such a strange thing to say when it could be said of any party.
> 
> Don't embrace stupidity. You're better than that.


+1. That silly argument cuts back twice as hard at the user.


----------



## screature

We could all do well to remember that the only polls that really matter are those held on election day.... If we could all adhere to that indisputable truth then maybe, just maybe, we could reduce the amount of chest thumping posts and stick to the issues.

Just a thought...


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> 308 shows the CPC widening its lead.


This if you look at the 'extremes' of the variability. If you look at the 'measure of central tendency' it is pretty equal between the top two.

Sure the poll that counts is the election itself but in a hores-race people like to watch all the way round - who is coming up the stretch - who is falling off the pace. Still the finish line is the only place that really counts. But by itself the finish is kinda boring.....


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> It's such a strange thing to say when it could be said of any party.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't embrace stupidity. You're better than that.



Not stupidity. Two left wing parties together have twice as much support as the one right wing party. That's a considerable blow to the conservatives popularity-wise, though it is likely an advantage first-past-the-post/number of seats wise. Either way, if Harper's party loses the election, gets a minority gov't, or goes down in seat count, Harper is finished. In other words, Harper is finished. He can join his buddy Jim Prentice doing whatever it is ex-politicians do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Vandave

So the Liberals are left wing, hey?

If that was the case, I wouldn't consider voting for them. Don't offend people like myself with your nonsense.

If I vote Liberal, it's not a vote against Harper and it's not an endorsement of the NDP. If anything it will be a vote against the NDP.

There is also not an insignificant number of people who are NDP-Conservative swing voters. You offend those others too with that.


----------



## CubaMark

LIVE: Leader's Debate. 17 September 2015


----------



## Macfury

Yep, I have never vote Liberal in my life, but would vote for their centrism to defeat the NDP this election.



Vandave said:


> So the Liberals are left wing, hey?
> 
> If that was the case, I wouldn't consider voting for them. Don't offend people like myself with your nonsense.
> 
> If I vote Liberal, it's not a vote against Harper and it's not an endorsement of the NDP. If anything it will be a vote against the NDP.
> 
> There is also not an insignificant number of people who are NDP-Conservative swing voters. You offend those others too with that.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> So the Liberals are left wing, hey?
> 
> 
> 
> If that was the case, I wouldn't consider voting for them. Don't offend people like myself with your nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> If I vote Liberal, it's not a vote against Harper and it's not an endorsement of the NDP. If anything it will be a vote against the NDP.
> 
> 
> 
> There is also not an insignificant number of people who are NDP-Conservative swing voters. You offend those others too with that.



I'm surprised with your lack of familiarity with the economic spectrum, Vandave. Absolutely the Liberals are to the left of the political/economic spectrum much the way the Democrats are on the U.S. They are not as socialist as the NDP, but they are certainly more in favor of a planned economy than a free market one. They are centrist, yes, but much further to the left than the Cons are. In fact, pretty much every other party leans to the left other than the Cons. You tell yourself the Libs are right wing all you want if it makes you happy. But you're wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjn, you sound like you fell asleep in 1973 and just woke up now.



fjnmusic said:


> I'm surprised with your lack of familiarity with the economic spectrum, Vandave. Absolutely the Liberals are to the left of the political/economic spectrum much the way the Democrats are on the U.S. They are not as socialist as the NDP, but they are certainly more in favor of a planned economy than a free market one. They are centrist, yes, but much further to the left than the Cons are. In fact, pretty much every other party leans to the left other than the Cons. You tell yourself the Libs are right wing all you want if it makes you happy. But you're wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> I'm surprised with your lack of familiarity with the economic spectrum, Vandave. Absolutely the Liberals are to the left of the political/economic spectrum much the way the Democrats are on the U.S. They are not as socialist as the NDP, but they are certainly more in favor of a planned economy than a free market one. They are centrist, yes, but much further to the left than the Cons are. In fact, pretty much every other party leans to the left other than the Cons. You tell yourself the Libs are right wing all you want if it makes you happy. But you're wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where did I say the Libs were right of centre? By definition, they are the centre. 

The Liberals fundamentally believe in free enterprise. The NDP do not. 

That's an important line for me to draw and it's why I am considering Liberal but it's also possibly a strategic vote for me in my riding to keep the commies out.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> fjn, you sound like you fell asleep in 1973 and just woke up now.



That's a pretty vague statement. Please explain. I have never seen any economics commentator anywhere that would place the Canadian Liberal platform to the right if centre on the economic spectrum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> Where did I say the Libs were right of centre? By definition, they are the centre.
> 
> 
> 
> The Liberals fundamentally believe in free enterprise. The NDP do not.
> 
> 
> 
> That's an important line for me to draw and it's why I am considering Liberal but it's also possibly a strategic vote for me in my riding to keep the commies out.



Fair enough, and I understand your strategy. I am considering voting Libs myself but for different reasons. However, mathematically the Cons have the advantage even though they enjoy half the support of the other two parties, a peculiarity of a three way race. If the Libs are perceived as a centrist party rather than very left or very right, they do stand a good chance of coming up the middle and taking the prize as the best compromise. Maybe not in Quebec though, where NDP support appears pretty solid. I think Harper may be as surprised as Jim Prentice was that Conservative support in his hometown Alberta is not guaranteed anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skippythebushkangaroo

I loved Harper's old stock statement. To me he came off like Parizeau.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> That's a pretty vague statement. Please explain. I have never seen any economics commentator anywhere that would place the Canadian Liberal platform to the right if centre on the economic spectrum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As Vandave says, It's at the centre--not like it was in the early 1970s when it tried to drag the country into socialism. Unlike the NDP, the Liberals fundamentally accept that the economy would not be better off if they took over the operation of businesses.


----------



## Macfury

My take on the economic debate:

1. Harper came across as bland and reasonable, and probably the most honest.
2. Trudeau came out as colourless and anemic and expected people to accept his unicorn gas as reality--though it's clear he buys into his own nonsense sincerely. 
3. Mulcair came across as most energetic and the most blatantly dishonest, both in his debates and in falsely describing his own economic plans. Speaking over others revealed him as the bully he is.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Old Stock:


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> My take on the economic debate:
> 
> 1. Harper came across as bland and reasonable, and probably the most honest.
> 2. Trudeau came out as colourless and anemic and expected people to accept his unicorn gas as reality--though it's clear he buys into his own nonsense sincerely.
> 3. Mulcair came across as most energetic and the most blatantly dishonest, both in his debates and in falsely describing his own economic plans. Speaking over others revealed him as the bully he is.


I agree. Muclair looked angry.

I find his intonation to be very creepy. What's up with that? Guy seems like a psycho.

I'm not just saying that because I hate NDP. I thought Mulcair did best in the first debate.


----------



## Macfury

I was amazed that some pundits saw Justin Trudeau as the winner of that debate. Even if I had backed that horse, I would have hung my head following that weak performance.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> I was amazed that some pundits saw Justin Trudeau as the winner of that debate. Even if I had backed that horse, I would have hung my head following that weak performance.


I think the pundits usually get the debates wrong. To me, the winner of a debate is the guy who increases his polling numbers the most. To judge the winner of a debate, you need to think how it affects each candidates voters. I find the pundits usually look at a debate academically. They consider who was technically correct or made the better points. Whilst that matters to some voters, it's a secondary consideration. 

Not to blow my own horn, but here in BC, the pundits all thought Dix did great in the first debate but his poll numbers sunk afterwards. When I watched, I felt he was going to be hurt because it was the first time most people had seen the guy and I knew the average person wasn't going to vote for a dork. The pundits can't see that because they live in a bubble and could only compare Dix to his relative performance. For Dix, he did well, but it's an irrelevant observation. People who didn't know Dix don't see that, they just see the dork and I knew they wouldn't like what they saw.

I thought Muclair won the first debate while most gave it to Justin. Didn't the polls show it the other way though?

My feeling is this debate was a tie or slight benefit to Harper. I think it's hard for an economic focussed debate not to be in favour of the Cons. I believe the polling shows that most Canadians view him best on the economy and most Canadians support things like TFSA's. Of course, when the debate subject is things you poll strongly in, it's going to benefit your numbers. You don't even have to watch the debate to know Harper won, the same way an environmental debate would bring him a loss.


----------



## Macfury

Dix wrote for the _Tyee_--that's spooky enough.

.


Vandave said:


> Not to blow my own horn, but here in BC, the pundits all thought Dix did great in the first debate but his poll numbers sunk afterwards. When I watched, I felt he was going to be hurt because it was the first time most people had seen the guy and I knew the average person wasn't going to vote for a dork. The pundits can't see that because they live in a bubble and could only compare Dix to his relative performance. For Dix, he did well, but it's an irrelevant observation. People who didn't know Dix don't see that, they just see the dork and I knew they wouldn't like what they saw.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> Dix wrote for the _Tyee_--that's spooky enough.
> 
> .


I saw him at a mall at few months before the election and I followed close behind him to watch the reaction of other shoppers. Not a single person recognized him (you can tell by watching people) and nobody came up to say hi. The pundits at that point had already proclaimed him Premier. I thought to myself that there was no way this was a done deal because nobody knew who this guy was and I thought, when they do, they aren't going to like what they see.

I actually made money on this observation by purchasing Christy Clark options on the election stock exchange at 5 to 10 cents on the dollar. I cleaned house on that.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> My take on the economic debate:
> 
> 1. Harper came across as bland and reasonable, and probably the most honest.
> 2. Trudeau came out as colourless and anemic and expected people to accept his unicorn gas as reality--though it's clear he buys into his own nonsense sincerely.
> 3. Mulcair came across as most energetic and the most blatantly dishonest, both in his debates and in falsely describing his own economic plans. Speaking over others revealed him as the bully he is.





Macfury said:


> 308 shows the CPC widening its lead.
> 
> Looks like the separatist NDP is scooping up all of the BQ support. I would agree that the NDP gives them their best shot at independence.





Vandave said:


> I think the pundits usually get the debates wrong. To me, the winner of a debate is the guy who increases his polling numbers the most. To judge the winner of a debate, you need to think how it affects each candidates voters. I find the pundits usually look at a debate academically. They consider who was technically correct or made the better points. Whilst that matters to some voters, it's a secondary consideration.
> 
> Not to blow my own horn, but here in BC, the pundits all thought Dix did great in the first debate but his poll numbers sunk afterwards. When I watched, I felt he was going to be hurt because it was the first time most people had seen the guy and I knew the average person wasn't going to vote for a dork. The pundits can't see that because they live in a bubble and could only compare Dix to his relative performance. For Dix, he did well, but it's an irrelevant observation. People who didn't know Dix don't see that, they just see the dork and I knew they wouldn't like what they saw.
> 
> I thought Muclair won the first debate while most gave it to Justin. Didn't the polls show it the other way though?
> 
> My feeling is this debate was a tie or slight benefit to Harper. I think it's hard for an economic focussed debate not to be in favour of the Cons. I believe the polling shows that most Canadians view him best on the economy and most Canadians support things like TFSA's. Of course, when the debate subject is things you poll strongly in, it's going to benefit your numbers. You don't even have to watch the debate to know Harper won, the same way an environmental debate would bring him a loss.


Well by your own words then, the Big Winner seems to be who?













308.com said:


> THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2015
> 
> 2015 Federal Election Link Round-up, Week 7
> 
> So last week wasn't the tipping point. It seems we're back to a three-way race, and maybe the closest point of it so far in this campaign.
> 
> *Week 7: NDP 31.2% CPC 29.6% LPC 29.5% GPC 5.7% BQ 3.3%*
> Week 6: NDP 31.7% LPC 30.3% CPC 29.1% GPC 4.9% BQ 3.5%
> Week 5: NDP 32.4% LPC 29.9% CPC 27.2% GPC 5.1% BQ 4.1%
> Week 4: NDP 33.9% CPC 28.4% LPC 27.9% GPC 5.0% BQ 3.8%
> Week 3: NDP 32.7% CPC 29.4% LPC 28.0% GPC 5.1% BQ 3.9%
> Week 2: NDP 31.8% CPC 29.8% LPC 27.5% GPC 5.4% BQ 4.6%
> Week 1: NDP 34.7% CPC 29.6% LPC 26.8% BQ 4.6% GPC 4.0%


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well by your own words then, the Big Winner seems to be who?


There is no* BIG *winner. The CPC is slightly ahead in projected seat counts.


----------



## Vandave

vandave said:


> So, let's call that the baseline and we'll see Monday what the numbers show. For the record, my position is somewhere between no change and slight benefit to Harper.


This guy sure knows what he is talking about, hey? 

It's funny to me how political commentators can get this kind of stuff wrong so often. Pretty much nobody came out and said Harper was the winner of the debate. But, he obviously was at the expense of the Liberals and NDP who dropped while the Conservatives gained 1.5 to 2 points.

Anybody who looks at this objectively knows that a debate on the economy is going to favour Harper. Why do you think he agreed to that debate to begin with? :lmao:

Like I said before, you shouldn't even have to watch that debate to know he was going to win.

But no..., dummies get all confused in the blinding hate for Harper and inability to see things from the view of the electorate. So they write a bunch of gibberish about how so and so made some excellent and factual points about this or that.


----------



## screature

screature said:


> We could all do well to remember that the only polls that really matter are those held on election day.... If we could all adhere to that indisputable truth then maybe, just maybe, we could reduce the amount of chest thumping posts and stick to the issues.
> 
> Just a thought...


Once again...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ol' Stawk!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Del Mastro criminal payback time-

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/polit...als-leading-in-del-mastros-old-seat-poll-says


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo is going over the edge....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whhhheeee!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Jimbo is going over the edge....


Yep, but just imagine how he is going to feel when the 'stevestays' group of voters re-elect the current PM. He will probably disappear for a good long while like he did the last time his 'heavesteve' campaign failed.


----------



## Vandave

SINC said:


> Yep, but just imagine how he is going to feel when the 'stevestays' group of voters re-elect the current PM. He will probably disappear for a good long while like he did the last time his 'heavesteve' campaign failed.


Yes, the moral indignation from the left about 70% voting against Harper will be amazing should that transpire, as would their silence after an NDP win of equal numbers.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


>


That one made me laugh.


----------



## SINC

From the 'Practice what you preach files' . . .

WATCH: Thomas Mulcair leaves diesel campaign bus running throughout debate | BOE Report


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> From the 'Practice what you preach files' . . .
> 
> 
> 
> WATCH: Thomas Mulcair leaves diesel campaign bus running throughout debate | BOE Report



Good point here. 😝


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


>



Eyes in the road, little Stevie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

Dippers danger.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More on ol' stock

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...to-the-others/article26424488/?service=mobile


----------



## screature

My god this thread is devolving into just posting political cartoons rather than discussing the issues... It is just too sad that we simply make a quick reference to a cartoon rather than expressing our own onions in our own words.

If our children and grand children could read this thread they should rightfully be disappointed with lack of intellectual content. We can do better.

Cripes what is this place, another grade school?


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> My god this thread is devolving into just posting political cartoons rather than discussing the issues... It is just too sad that we simply make a quick reference to a cartoon rather than expressing our own onions in our own words.
> 
> 
> 
> If our children and grand children could read this thread they should rightfully be disappointed with lack of intellectual content. We can do better.
> 
> 
> 
> Cripes what is this place, another grade school?



Skip breakfast? Out of coffee? If our kids and grandkids can read at all that will be an accomplishment. This is the world of Snapchat, my friend.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

A review of the week the was:



screature said:


> You retired scientists working for the federal government with your gold platted pensions are just too funny...
> 
> Guess what? You are just employees like the rest of us.
> 
> You seem to think you and scientists working today for the Federal Government should have the temerity to speak for the government while you receive a paycheck from them. All that does is reveal your *political intentions*.
> 
> Scientists working for the Government should NOT be able to speak publicly about the work they are doing without Government approval cut and dry! They are doing a job nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> Truth be told I don't expect a retired scientist to understand modern day politics, it is far too complected,





screature said:


> Yep just another "scientist" working for the government who thinks he should be free to speak his mind despite the fact that he works for the government or a government organization. Did you really think I wouldn't research who you say you have worked for?
> 
> The urls all end in.gov.
> 
> So you worked in the US and you seem to think that Canadian scientists should be free to do as they please despite jurisdictional differences?
> 
> Who is smoking or drinking what now?
> 
> Get over yourself and while you are at it have the dignity to apologize to me for your unwarranted rant about my sobriety or lack thereof.





screature said:


> You continue to embarrass yourself as always Jimbo.





screature said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So let's restart fresh again.
> 
> We obviously disagree on many fronts and they may be impassible to get by but we can probably just agree to disagree.





screature said:


> Agreed.





screature said:


> Uhhmm this happened AFTER he worked for the Conservatives. You are clutching at straws with the one, even the MSM says as much. With your one sided approach to politics maybe you should considering emigrating to, Russia, Cuba, or North Vietnam, etc. where such one sided blindness is appreciated, even lauded.. You could be a folk hero.





screature said:


> You are so ignorant of the Canadian Election process it is completely astounding...
> 
> So in your books when one party is polling well they should be able to advance the date of the election to serve their purposes?????
> 
> I am biting my tongue here....... How can I put this politely........
> 
> I can't think of a way so I won't even try. You wouldn't get it anyway.





screature said:


> Whoever wins I hope they have the best interests of our county at heart.
> 
> I think they all feel they are doing that... now it is just the public to decide and the choirs of which we are all part of will keep singing until the final moment .. and after that I am sure the choirs will continue singing...
> 
> Such is life is a democracy.





screature said:


> Yep with Mulcair saying 50 +1 is enough of a vote to separate from Canada.
> 
> It makes me laugh...
> 
> The PQ created forced fusion of municipalities on us without any public consultation and then when the QC Libs won the election under Charest he said that dissenting municipalities could have a say by conducting a public referendum... Sounded good until you read the details of what needed to be achieved. 60% of the vote and only valid if 50% of the public turned out to vote. But it does not stop there, the "referendum" was held on a Sunday and also it was Father's Day.
> 
> So even the Liberals in Quebec don't see 50 +1 as being a valid vote for "separation" even at the municipal level of government.
> 
> In Aylmer we far surpassed 60% of the vote threshold, but due to the fact that the referendum date was skewed to get a low turn out rate we did note achieve the 50% turnout rate that was "required".
> 
> So the provincials Libs are ok with gerrymandering the results of a provincial/municipal referendum so why should we not think it is not possible for a Separatist government in Quebec to do so as well?
> 
> If 50+1 is not good enough for a municipal/provincial referendum why should it be good enough for the province of Quebec to separate from the country of Canada...
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know, someone please explain it to me as I see no consistency in logic.





screature said:


> We could all do well to remember that the only polls that really matter are those held on election day.... If we could all adhere to that indisputable truth then maybe, just maybe, we could reduce the amount of chest thumping posts and stick to the issues.
> 
> Just a thought...





screature said:


> Once again...


Worthy debate, for posterity?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Worthy debate, for posterity?


Well, as a quick observation, he had much more intelligent input than your last post.


----------



## rgray

screature said:


> My god this thread is devolving into just posting political cartoons rather than discussing the issues... It is just too sad that we simply make a quick reference to a cartoon rather than expressing our own onions in our own words.
> 
> If our children and grand children could read this thread they should rightfully be disappointed with lack of intellectual content. We can do better.
> 
> Cripes what is this place, another grade school?


This just the righties trying to dictate, as is their want, the 'rules of engagement' or terms of expression. If it doesn't meet their style, they just call it down.

Cartoons are a perfectly legitimate embodiment of a thought, an opinion, an idea or a position graphically presented. Sometimes a lot easier to understand than a pageful of blather.....


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> Sometimes a lot easier to understand than a pageful of blather.....


I like reading your blather much better!


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Well, as a quick observation, he had much more intelligent input than your last post.


Say buddy, thanks for the shout out, always good to hear from you friend.


----------



## rgray




----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Skip breakfast? Out of coffee? *If our kids and grandkids can read at all that will be an accomplishment. *This is the world of Snapchat, my friend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It is sad that you as an educator feel that way... If they can't read, as a teacher that is your failing and not theirs.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> A review of the week the was:


Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

You retired scientists working for the federal government with your gold platted pensions are just too funny...

Guess what? You are just employees like the rest of us.

You seem to think you and scientists working today for the Federal Government should have the temerity to speak for the government while you receive a paycheck from them. All that does is reveal your political intentions.

Scientists working for the Government should NOT be able to speak publicly about the work they are doing without Government approval cut and dry! They are doing a job nothing more and nothing less.

Truth be told I don't expect a retired scientist to understand modern day politics, it is far too complected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Yep just another "scientist" working for the government who thinks he should be free to speak his mind despite the fact that he works for the government or a government organization. Did you really think I wouldn't research who you say you have worked for?

The urls all end in.gov.

So you worked in the US and you seem to think that Canadian scientists should be free to do as they please despite jurisdictional differences?

Who is smoking or drinking what now?

Get over yourself and while you are at it have the dignity to apologize to me for your unwarranted rant about my sobriety or lack thereof. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

You continue to embarrass yourself as always Jimbo. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Thank you.

So let's restart fresh again.

We obviously disagree on many fronts and they may be impassible to get by but we can probably just agree to disagree. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Agreed. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Uhhmm this happened AFTER he worked for the Conservatives. You are clutching at straws with the one, even the MSM says as much. With your one sided approach to politics maybe you should considering emigrating to, Russia, Cuba, or North Vietnam, etc. where such one sided blindness is appreciated, even lauded.. You could be a folk hero. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

You are so ignorant of the Canadian Election process it is completely astounding...

So in your books when one party is polling well they should be able to advance the date of the election to serve their purposes?????

I am biting my tongue here....... How can I put this politely........

I can't think of a way so I won't even try. You wouldn't get it anyway. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Whoever wins I hope they have the best interests of our county at heart.

I think they all feel they are doing that... now it is just the public to decide and the choirs of which we are all part of will keep singing until the final moment .. and after that I am sure the choirs will continue singing...

Such is life is a democracy. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Yep with Mulcair saying 50 +1 is enough of a vote to separate from Canada.

It makes me laugh...

The PQ created forced fusion of municipalities on us without any public consultation and then when the QC Libs won the election under Charest he said that dissenting municipalities could have a say by conducting a public referendum... Sounded good until you read the details of what needed to be achieved. 60% of the vote and only valid if 50% of the public turned out to vote. But it does not stop there, the "referendum" was held on a Sunday and also it was Father's Day.

So even the Liberals in Quebec don't see 50 +1 as being a valid vote for "separation" even at the municipal level of government.

In Aylmer we far surpassed 60% of the vote threshold, but due to the fact that the referendum date was skewed to get a low turn out rate we did note achieve the 50% turnout rate that was "required".

So the provincials Libs are ok with gerrymandering the results of a provincial/municipal referendum so why should we not think it is not possible for a Separatist government in Quebec to do so as well?

If 50+1 is not good enough for a municipal/provincial referendum why should it be good enough for the province of Quebec to separate from the country of Canada...

Inquiring minds want to know, someone please explain it to me as I see no consistency in logic. 


Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

We could all do well to remember that the only polls that really matter are those held on election day.... If we could all adhere to that indisputable truth then maybe, just maybe, we could reduce the amount of chest thumping posts and stick to the issues.

Just a thought... 

Quote:

Originally Posted by screature View Post

Once again... 



BigDL said:


> *Worthy debate, for posterity?*





rgray said:


> This just the righties trying to dictate, as is their want, the 'rules of engagement' or terms of expression. If it doesn't meet their style, they just call it down.
> 
> Cartoons are a perfectly legitimate embodiment of a thought, an opinion, an idea or a position graphically presented. Sometimes a lot easier to understand than a pageful of blather.....



Yes. At least I took the time and effort to express my opinion in my own words and was not so lazy as to post a cartoon that was not funny/badly drawn and wasn't factual.

But thanks for recapping my posts that actually required more thought than just posting some political cartoon that you had nothing to do with. Intellectual laziness to the extreme.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


>


See this is just another sad example of a bad and false political cartoon. Just pure intellectual laziness.


----------



## Macfury

Yep. Those cartoons need to be funny AND also provide a scenario remotely related to reality. The weakest ones (example above) poke fun at a non-existent situation they create themselves.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yep. Those cartoons need to be funny AND also provide a scenario remotely related to reality. The weakest ones (example above) poke fun at a non-existent situation they create themselves.


The quality of cartoons that are supposed to be political satire these days are decidedly lacking and yet people here and elsewhere re-post them as if they were golden. 

It is just a sad state of affairs where the best one can do is re-post a bad/not funny/false in content political cartoon instead of actually using their own intellect and words to express their opinion.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> It is sad that you as an educator feel that way... If they can't read, as a teacher that is your failing and not theirs.



Not even close. It is what is promoted at home. I can promote reading all I want, and I do, but if it is not followed up outside the classroom, it is kind of fruitless. Of course, knowing this fact would require some familiarity with what goes on both in classrooms and at home.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> The quality of cartoons that are supposed to be political satire these days are decidedly lacking and yet people here and elsewhere re-post them as if they were golden.
> 
> 
> 
> It is just a sad state of affairs where the best one can do is re-post a bad/not funny/false in content political cartoon instead of actually using their own intellect and words to express their opinion.



As you are exemplifying here, you mean? Yeah, that's pretty deep.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Not even close. It is what is promoted at home. I can promote reading all I want, and I do, but if it is not followed up outside the classroom, it is kind of fruitless. Of course, knowing this fact would require some familiarity with what goes on both in classrooms and at home.


A century ago, children were taught to read when their parents were illiterate or had no knowledge of the English language. Parents can instill a love of reading, but teachers are responsible for teaching them how to read.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Not even close. It is what is promoted at home. I can promote reading all I want, and I do, but if it is not followed up outside the classroom, it is kind of fruitless. Of course, knowing this fact would require some familiarity with what goes on both in classrooms and at home.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was a long term substitute teacher of Physics, Math and Ecology at the secondary level and spent many after hours with struggling students so don't try and pawn off your responsibility to only the parents. If they fail, then you own part of their failure.

If you don't think you can have an influence on students lives for the better then you have no right to call yourself a teacher.

I grew up in a very dysfunctional family and my parents were not a very good role model.

On the other hand I had great teachers who were caring and showed me the way to a better life. If you don't believe you are capable of that then maybe it is time to retire and let someone else do your job.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> *As you are exemplifying here, you mean? *Yeah, that's pretty deep.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What the hell are you talking about? Please explain? Your post makes no sense at all.


----------



## Macfury

Nanos shows that the CPC benefited slighly from the last debate. It is now in a minor lead and the NDP is in third place for the first time in weeks:



> Coming out of the Globe and Mail debate on the economy there has been no breakaway moment for the federal parties. The tracking by Nanos has the Conservatives at 30.8%, the Liberals at 30.3%, the NDP at 29.1%, and the Greens at 5.1% nationally


----------



## BigDL

Great to see editorial cartoons from different venues keep 'em coming.


----------



## rgray

BigDL said:


> Great to see editorial cartoons from different venues keep 'em coming.


Thanks....


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Great to see editorial cartoons from different venues keep 'em coming.


Good on you BigDL. Under your watch, no contribution goes unappreciated!


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Good on you BigDL. Under your watch, no contribution goes unappreciated!


Why coming from a libertarian I thank you. 

I should think the free exchange of ideas, even in the form of editorial cartoons, should be welcomed by a person such as yourself. The merits of each cartoon may be, extolled or panned as the case may warrant.


----------



## rgray

BigDL said:


> Why coming from a libertarian I thank you.
> 
> I should think the free exchange of ideas, even in the form of editorial cartoons, should welcomed by a person such as yourself. The merits of each cartoon may be, extolled or panned as the case may warrant.


As a poster of cartoons, I am not much bothered by these righty attempts to control the 'rules of engagement' for the thread. Pathetic as they are, and more or less expected. Very Harpo-esque really.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> A century ago, children were taught to read when their parents were illiterate or had no knowledge of the English language. Parents can instill a love of reading, but teachers are responsible for teaching them how to read.



I halfway agree with you there, but if it is not supported or encouraged at home, it is fruitless. Both my children could read before they started school, but that's because we emphasized at home. Even more, our kids saw us reading all the time, so it was just a normal thing to do. We taught them how to read. In some ways, they actually slowed down a little in school. One daughter had read all the Harry Potter books twice by the time she was in grade 4, and all on her own time. There is a lot of variation out there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> As a poster of cartoons, I am not much bothered by these righty attempts to control the 'rules of engagement' for the thread. Pathetic as they are, and more or less expected. Very Harpo-esque really.



Political cartoons and memes serve an important purpose. There is nothing wrong with them. No worse than a rant in prose form.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Nanos shows that the CPC benefited slighly from the last debate. It is now in a minor lead and the NDP is in third place for the first time in weeks:



I figured starting in the lead was a disadvantage for the Federal NDP right from the start. It's the underdog, the one coming up from behind, that stands to benefit the most, especially from a very long campaign. That would mean the Federal Liberals are actually the party to watch for. Because they get less focus, they develop fewer enemies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Please explain? Your post makes no sense at all.



I mean you criticize what others post while offering precious little insight of your own. Surely you have more to contribute.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

So what do you all make of this? Does this image warm your heart or give you the chills?

My thought is in terms of knowledge of politics, Wayne is a great hockey player.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Why coming from a libertarian I thank you.
> 
> I should think the free exchange of ideas, even in the form of editorial cartoons, should be welcomed by a person such as yourself. The merits of each cartoon may be, extolled or panned as the case may warrant.


I may wish for heartier fare, but even this thin gruel must be permitted.


----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> View attachment 60770
> 
> 
> So what do you all make of this? Does this image warm your heart or give you the chills?
> 
> My thought is in terms of knowledge of politics, Wayne is a great hockey player.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


A celebrity appearance fee is HOW MUCH? ...oh right when you have the largest war chest it matters not.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> I may wish for heartier fare, but even this thin gruel must be permitted.


Portion control is what really matters.


----------



## rgray

.


----------



## rgray

fjnmusic said:


> View attachment 60770
> 
> 
> So what do you all make of this? Does this image warm your heart or give you the chills?
> 
> My thought is in terms of knowledge of politics, Wayne is a great hockey player.


A particularly pathetic gesture because Gretzky is not even eligible to vote by Harpo's rules!!!


----------



## fjnmusic

.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I mean you criticize what others post while offering precious little insight of your own. Surely you have more to contribute.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If others actually had something to to say in their own words I am all ears.... so once again I say speak you own words and not post some lame cartoon.

As far as contributions go BigDL highlighted mine very, very well... what is your contribution? Little to none that I can see. Check the record. You just keep spouting the same chite with no value added.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> If others actually had something to to say in their own words I am all ears.... so once again I say speak you own words and not post some lame cartoon.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as contributions go BigDL highlighted mine very, very well... what is your contribution? Little to none that I can see. Check the record. You just keep spouting the same chite with no value added.



Sorry you feel that way, man. I try to come out with some original stuff. Or at least a cartoon that hasn't appeared here yet. What's your take on The Gretzky/Harper alliance? I did post that one to mostly deaf ears.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

I think this encapsulates the Immigration question quite well. Canada, apart from First Nations people, is a country of immigrants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I think this encapsulates the Immigration question quite well. Canada, apart from First Nations people, is a country of immigrants.


It is also a country with immigration laws set by its current citizens. It is not a country of unmitigated and limitless immigration.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> If others actually had something to to say in their own words I am all ears.... so once again I say speak you own words and not post some lame cartoon.
> 
> As far as contributions go BigDL highlighted mine very, very well... what is your contribution? Little to none that I can see. Check the record. You just keep spouting the same chite with no value added.


So nice to hear directly from you old friend. How's she going' anyway.

Have you gone outside to check the weather? It's there, It might provide a body some benefit to do so.


----------



## SINC

Your phoney friendship and sacastic posts demonstrate your real reason for being here, as a **** disturber.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Your phoney friendship and sacastic posts demonstrate your real reason for being here, as a **** disturber.


Hey good buddy what is " **** disturber" dog whistle for something?...


----------



## Macfury

308 is showing a widening CPC lead both in terms of percentage of support and seat count at the expense of the NDP.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Hey good buddy what is " **** disturber" dog whistle for something?...


Now run along and report back to gt over on Magic. Oh wait, you already have:


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Now run along and report back to gt over on Magic. Oh wait, you already have:


I reach out in a friendly manner to you my friend, to ascertain from my good buddy if you are going to confess your implied meaning of an obvious secret dog whistle saying. I may only conclude secret dog whistle politics are only understood by, and reserved for conservatives only.

Wow! Your hostility is palpable. What's going on? What has you in the crankiest temper?

Things not going well for OGL=Epic Fail*


*See signature to avoid confusion with another despot.


----------



## BigDL

*Secret dog whistle politics at its best*

Fund raising on this! Must be a message only a conservative can deduce. The rest of Canadians would be embarrassed. Conservatives have another meaning to LAW AND ORDER.

Conservative Legacy Fund.ca



CONSERVATIVE LEGACY FUND.CA said:


> Why the Legacy fund
> 
> Dean Del Mastro and Michael Sona both sacrificed their personal freedom to ensure Conservative victories in federal elections. Their dedication to the core principles of the Conservative cause helped us lead Canada on a path to a future of unlimited possibility.
> 
> When Dean Del Mastro returns to freedom he will do so knowing that he has the support of a well-deserved pension for the rest of his life. However, Michael Sona has no pension awaiting him upon his release.
> 
> Not all of those who sacrifice for the Conservative cause have access to the support they deserve.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> See signature to avoid confusion with another depot.


The Home Depot?



BigDL said:


> Fund raising on this! Must be a message only a conservative can deduce. The rest of Canadians would be embarrassed. Conservatives have another meaning to LAW AND ORDER.


You do realize the site is a fake?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> The Home Depot?


Dually noted and corrected.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> You do realize the site is a fake?


I'm sorry I do not understand the meaning or even perceive dog whistle politics. It's a Conservative thing.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I'm sorry I do not understand the meaning or even perceive dog whistle politics. It's a Conservative thing.


You will likely experience a Harper election victory beyond your range of hearing!


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> So nice to hear directly from you old friend. How's she going' anyway.
> 
> *Have you gone outside to check the weather? It's there, It might provide a body some benefit to do so.*


It is going quite well.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?


----------



## Vandave

vandave said:


> So, let's call that the baseline and we'll see Monday what the numbers show. For the record, my position is somewhere between no change and slight benefit to Harper.


This guy sure knows what he is talking about, hey? 

It's funny to me how political commentators can get this kind of stuff wrong so often. Pretty much nobody came out and said Harper was the winner of the debate. But, he obviously was at the expense of the Liberals and NDP who dropped while the Conservatives gained 1.5 to 2 points.

Anybody who looks at this objectively knows that a debate on the economy is going to favour Harper. Why do you think he agreed to that debate to begin with? 

Like I said before, you shouldn't even have to watch that debate to know he was going to win.

But no..., dummies get all confused in the blinding hate for Harper and inability to see things from the view of the electorate. So they write a bunch of gibberish about how so and so made some excellent and factual points about this or that.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> It's funny to me how political commentators can get this kind of stuff wrong so often.


It's wish fulfillment for most of them.


----------



## FeXL

You certainly have a persecution complex, don't you?

Once again and, for the final time, nobody here is attempting to control the dialog. By all means, post away. However, have the courtesy to at least comment on why you like it or don't like at. Better yet, explain the issues so that everyone knows what the hell you're talking about. Take a position & defend it. That's not controlling, that's asking you to actually engage the topic.

As is illustrated on this thread on a daily basis, any two-year old mentality can post a cartoon. However, it takes an adult to actually recognize & discuss the issues.

Related: If you want to see who really attempts to control the dialog, you should watch the Main Stream Media on any given day. It certainly ain't the political right...



rgray said:


> As a poster of cartoons, I am not much bothered by these righty attempts to control the 'rules of engagement' for the thread. Pathetic as they are, and more or less expected. Very Harpo-esque really.


----------



## FeXL

Can you imagine the hue & cry if a Conservative talked like this?

Winnipeg Centre: Pat Martin, Robert-Falcon Ouellette Make Riding Key NDP-Liberal Battle



> "He is full of ****, frankly. I mean, who do you think you are? You show up, and three years later you are going to be the mayor of Winnipeg. And that doesn't work out, so, that's okay, I'll be the member of Parliament?" Martin told HuffPost.
> 
> Martin said his challenger settled on the Liberals only because he thought that party gave him better chances of winning. "That makes you a political slut, too."


----------



## MacGuiver

If by the end of this week the ass fell out of everything and the markets crashed in the US and Canada 1930s style, who would you trust to lead us through the certain chaos that would ensue?


----------



## rgray




----------



## FeXL

Well, well, well. Finally, a journalist with some stones...

Oh, Shiny Pony!



> Steve asks: "So how much new spending have you announced thus far?"
> 
> Justin: "A fair bit...if you want to tabulate them you can go to our website & do that. I'm more focused on actually talking about what we're going to do right away for Canadians than sitting there with a calculator, which you guys can do."


Brilliant. This guy couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

Four weeks left, Justin. Keep on talking...


----------



## FeXL

Oh, my post on the little discussed "Leap Manifesto" was completely panned by the left so I guess it's time to post more about it. Ladies & Gentlemen, Mr. Rex Murphy:

Rex Murphy: Leap Manifesto is Luther’s 95 theses for the climate-haunted



> When you combine the minds of some of its signatories, *we see a concentration of intelligence that will leave you aghast*. When you harness the intellect of Pamela Anderson with the always-soothing prose of catastrophist Naomi Klein, yoke them to the misty musings of Alanis Morissette and the rhapsodizing of Canada’s climate-soothsayer-in-chief, David Suzuki, call in Neil Young to strum it dolefully into the tormented ears of the world, the result is what historians sometimes call a world-shaking bleat.


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Pretty please, vote for Angry Tom...


----------



## fjnmusic

MacGuiver said:


> If by the end of this week the ass fell out of everything and the markets crashed in the US and Canada 1930s style, who would you trust to lead us through the certain chaos that would ensue?



Not Harper, that's fo swizzle. He already demonstrated that he's not up to the task. In fact Canada's most lucrative times were under the Liberals.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Says the guy who voted for Notley because she would increase teacher salaries.



fjnmusic said:


> Not Harper, that's fo swizzle. He already demonstrated that he's not up to the task. In fact Canada's most lucrative times were under the Liberals.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Says the guy who voted for Notley because she would increase teacher salaries.



You are on drugs, Macfury. I have said more than once that we are stuck with the crappy 0-0-0-2 arrangement until this collective agreement expires, which won't be until August of next year. Why do you have to attack in such a personal way? And while we're at it, why don't you tell us all exactly how much YOU earn so we can discuss it in a public forum. Seriously, you could learn some manners.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

FeXL said:


> *Once again and, for the final time, *...................


Final time??? You promise??..... 



FeXL said:


> Brilliant. This guy couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.


Thank you for this fine illustration of what you mean by intellectual, reasoned debate!!


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Twitter--home of the toothless terriers!


----------



## BigDL

First Conservatives and shameless fund raising, now CONSERVATIVES and CONvicted Tax Cheats. How does anyone support these frauds. "LAW AND ORDER" indeed. 

Known Organized Tax Cheats get a pass



CBCNews said:


> Top Conservative cabinet ministers met publicly with senior staff from KPMG's tax division, and one went so far as to promote the firm, even as the Canada Revenue Agency was alleging the company set up an offshore tax "sham" that deceived the government and deprived the treasury of potentially millions of dollars, a CBC News investigation shows.
> 
> Revenue Minister Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Finance Minister Joe Oliver and Prime Minister Stephen Harper all appeared in public with officials from KPMG's tax department in 2014 and 2015 during the period when CRA auditors were continuing an investigation into one of the accounting firm's tax schemes and seeking names of multimillionaire clients.
> 
> KPMG also sponsored Oliver's 2015 post-budget speech in Vancouver. And in August 2014, KPMG executives registered to lobby the prime minister and his staff.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, the fundraising site was a gag.

Alleged wrongdoing is not wrongdoing.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> BigDL, the fundraising site was a gag.
> 
> Alleged wrongdoing is not wrongdoing.


I should believe a guy who professes Anthropogenic Climate Change is a hoax.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I should believe a guy who professes Anthropogenic Climate Change is a hoax.


It's not a hoax, it's a religion.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It's not a hoax, it's a religion.


Well a religious belief for conservatives "follow the money," if you follow the money it goes to legit Conservatives.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well a religious belief for conservatives "follow the money," if you follow the money it goes to legit Conservatives.


Thankfully the Conservatives are taking less of my money than the NDP and the Liberals. That's why I support them.


----------



## FeXL

Yes. Final time I address your persecution complex. Promise. Now it's up to you to put on your big girl panties & deal with the fact that "righty" is not out to get you. In fact, "lefty" is...



rgray said:


> Final time??? You promise??


Hey, I'm just a dumb biker, what do I know? You're the "Aademic".

'Sides, got far more substance than anything you've offered on the thread recently. What would you have me do? Post a cartoon to offset one of yours? Duelling cartoons, is that it? I can see it now, bright lights...NOT! ROTFLMAO...

BTW, still waiting for your hallowed presence on the GHG thread. Love to hear your side of the story...



rgray said:


> Thank you for this fine illustration of what you mean by intellectual, reasoned debate!!


----------



## BigDL

*Conservatives: ARE NO LONGER READY?*

Conservatives have the stink of desperation? Taking risky moves to win power? 

Tory campaign ‘mistake’ angers Terry Fox’s family: ‘There is no place in the fight against cancer for politics’ | National Post



National Post said:


> *Tory campaign ‘mistake’ angers Terry Fox’s family: ‘There is no place in the fight against cancer for politics’*
> 
> VANCOUVER • The federal Conservatives are facing an unexpected backlash from Terry Fox’s family and friends, who insist they were not enthusiastic about the party’s pledge to match Terry Fox Run donations if re-elected, and say they found the campaign event in poor taste.
> 
> One longtime friend and confidante of Fox said the announcement, made Sunday by outgoing Conservative MP James Moore, was “so wrong on so many levels.”
> 
> “There is no place in the fight against cancer for politics,” said Bill Vigars, who organized public relations for the Marathon of Hope in 1980.
> 
> The Terry Fox Foundation, which has for years avoided politicizing Fox’s legacy, issued a statement Monday underlining their non-partisan status.












> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's wife Laureen Harper, second left, and local Conservative candidates James Moore, left, and Tim Laidler participate in a photo opportunity on the training route Terry Fox used while preparing for his cross-country run, in Port Moody, B.C., on Sunday, Sept. 20, 2015.


----------



## FeXL

I don't find the "stink of desperation" in this. The stench of opportunism, probably. I don't like it for anybody but there isn't a political party during this campaign that hasn't taken advantage of opportunity. The list would be long & distinguished.



BigDL said:


> Conservatives have the stink of desperation?


----------



## Macfury

I hope the Conservatives win so they can donate to the campaign!


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> I don't find the "stink of desperation" in this. The stench of opportunism, probably. I don't like it for anybody but there isn't a political party during this campaign that hasn't taken advantage of opportunity. The list would be long & distinguished.


Agreed but in incredibly poor taste, even by Harpo standards. Out and out wrong if the intent is to use tax dollars not party dollars. 

On further reflection straight up wrong, as they did not clear it with the foundation ahead of the announcement.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Agreed but in incredibly poor taste, even by Harpo standards. Out and out wrong if the intent is to use tax dollars not party dollars.
> 
> On further reflection straight up wrong, as they did not clear it with the foundation ahead of the announcement.


It's party funds, not tax dollars. Here is the Terry Fox Foundation's not very stinging press release:



> *Statement of Britt Andersen of The Terry Fox Foundation*
> 
> _Regarding Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Commitment of Matching Donations for Cancer Research_
> 
> Mr. Britt Andersen, Executive Director of The Terry Fox Foundation, made the following statement in response to today’s announcement by Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
> 
> “In 35 years The Terry Fox Foundation has raised $700 million in Terry’s name to fund innovative and progressive cancer research programs. The ongoing efforts to keep alive Terry’s dream of finding a cure for cancer have greatly impacted the lives of countless people living with cancer.
> 
> As an international non-profit organization, The Terry Fox Foundation is non-partisan. *The Foundation welcomes new investment commitments in cancer research from any and all political parties.*”


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> I don't find the "stink of desperation" in this. The stench of opportunism, probably. I don't like it for anybody but there isn't a political party during this campaign that hasn't taken advantage of opportunity. The list would be long & distinguished.


The stink of desperation comes from, even when you cheat, the election will result in less than a majority. OGL=Epic Fail*  shall not govern.

*See signature to avoid confusion with some other despot.


----------



## FeXL

Clearly...



BigDL said:


> The stink of desperation comes from, even when you cheat, the election will result in less than a majority.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It's party funds, not tax dollars. Here is the Terry Fox Foundation's not very stinging press release:


If it's party funds, then surly it's Party funds from CONSERVATIVE LEGACY FUND.CA no doubt.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


>


My god you are a stubborn man and despite your level of education you seem to be incapable of forming an original sentence or thought and are so intellectually lazy that all you can do is post bad political cartoons.

It is a sad state of affairs when a retired professor resorts to this kind of clap trap and can't form a single original thought of his own and has to resort to lame political cartoons to represent simplistically what should be his own original detailed thoughts.


----------



## Vandave

As of now, I'm back on team Conservative after leaning Liberal for a bit there.

I don't like Trudeau's talk about not working with Conservatives but being open to the NDP.

Had I voted Liberal, it would partly be due to my desire to keep the NDP from winning my riding. But now, there is no difference between the two and I cannot support the NDP and their regressive politics.


----------



## Macfury

Nanos shows the Conservatives up again at the expense of the NDP, which has fallen to a regular third place.



Vandave said:


> As of now, I'm back on team Conservative after leaning Liberal for a bit there.
> 
> I don't like Trudeau's talk about not working with Conservatives but being open to the NDP.
> 
> Had I voted Liberal, it would partly be due to my desire to keep the NDP from winning my riding. But now, there is no difference between the two and I cannot support the NDP and their regressive politics.


----------



## fjnmusic

I really dislike the whole "matching donations" when it come to charity. If you all come up with $100,000, we'll match it by throwing in $100,000 ourselves! If you have $100,000 to spare, why not just donate it instead of making it conditional? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Because in most cases, the challenge winds up earning the charity more money.



fjnmusic said:


> I really dislike the whole "matching donations" when it come to charity. If you all come up with $100,000, we'll match it by throwing in $100,000 ourselves! If you have $100,000 to spare, why not just donate it instead of making it conditional?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> Nanos shows the Conservatives up again at the expense of the NDP, which has fallen to a regular third place.


I expected that the NDP would falter and drop back into the mid to high 20's, back to their traditional level of support. I think the drop from 35% to 29% is indicative of a trend that will continue. I think the NDP blew it 2 or 3 weeks ago by failing to hold that support. 

I think early polling going into an election is very superficial. Once people start talking about issues, it forces them back into their natural beliefs and tendencies, unless we become disgusted with the party is power and want them gone (then we go to our second choice). I think people temporarily gave the NDP their vote in polling to register a protest, but they are reverting back to the mean.

I think the election is between the Liberals and Conservatives although polling shows a 3 way tie. I think going forward, the NDP bleeds support to Liberals and some of that get passed on to the Conservatives (e.g. people like myself).

I think the Liberals can pull off a victory by taking that 'anybody but Harper vote' over the next couple weeks and pulling ahead of the NDP and keeping a gap of at least 5%. That will lock in that group. Once ahead and in the final week, you pull out Paul Martin to give you some of that centre-right vote. Together, that gets you into the mid 30's and more seats than anybody.

I think the Conservative path to victory is continuing to hit on the economy and believe it or not, playing up Harper. I saw a poll today that said Harper is viewed as the best potential PM of the bunch with numbers towards 40%. 

I think the left is making the same mistake they made in the last 4 elections which is playing up the fear-mongering and hate for Harper. Every election these guys think it's the time Canadian's will reject Harper but he just keeps getting stronger. You think they'd learn. :lmao: But when you look at his leadership numbers, he has room to gain, and that doesn't match the rhetoric you hear in the media or by others.


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> I really dislike the whole "matching donations" when it come to charity. If you all come up with $100,000, we'll match it by throwing in $100,000 ourselves! If you have $100,000 to spare, why not just donate it instead of making it conditional?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because it's a way to double down on people feeling good about themselves. :lmao:

If you donate $10, you can feel like you donated $20. The guys who actually donated that extra $10 count that as a win too.

So we get $30 of good feeling out of a $20 donation.


----------



## rgray

screature said:


> My god you are a stubborn man and despite your level of education you seem to be incapable of forming an original sentence or thought and are so intellectually lazy that all you can do is post bad political cartoons.
> 
> It is a sad state of affairs when a retired professor resorts to this kind of clap trap and can't form a single original thought of his own and has to resort to lame political cartoons to represent simplistically what should be his own original detailed thoughts.


I happen to largely agree with the sentiments expressed in these cartoons. They encapsulate quite eloquently my opinions.

Is your problem with them that most of them are anti-Harpo?? Because it is only you knee-jerk righties that object.

That should come as no surprise to you because the latest 308 poll figures show that at the present time 69.9% of the country is anti-Harpo, so in fact these cartoons are expressing the mood of the country as a whole!!! 

If you want to express counter opinions, that is your absolute right.

But it is also my right to post my opinion in a way that best expresses it.

And you can insult me all you like if it makes you feel better - but I'd rather you directed your comment to the idea expressed.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I really dislike the whole "matching donations" when it come to charity. If you all come up with $100,000, we'll match it by throwing in $100,000 ourselves! If you have $100,000 to spare, why not just donate it instead of making it conditional?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What ? It is not "conditional" it is just matching dollar for dollar. This is hardly anything new when it comes to government contributions. It has been in place for a very long time now.

It boggles my mind as to how you can construe this to be a bad thing.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> I happen to largely agree with the sentiments expressed in these cartoons. *They encapsulate quite eloquently my opinions.*
> 
> Is your problem with them that most of them are anti-Harpo?? Because it is only you knee-jerk righties that object.
> 
> That should come as no surprise to you because the latest 308 poll figures show that at the present time 69.9% of the country is anti-Harpo, so in fact these cartoons are expressing the mood of the country as a whole!!!
> 
> If you want to express counter opinions, that is your absolute right.
> 
> But it is also my right to post my opinion in a way that best expresses it.
> 
> And you can insult me all you like if it makes you feel better - but I'd rather you directed your comment to the idea expressed.


Well if they do I suggest you read a little bit more and educate yourself as most of them are just factually incorrect. if political cartoons are the level of commentary that you are following now I can only say that your level of research/academia has diminished greatly since your retirement. You seem to have become intellectually lazy in your later years if political cartoons are the basis for a logical,studied debate about politics.


----------



## rgray

screature said:


> Well if they do I suggest you read a little bit more and educate yourself as most of them are just factually incorrect. if political cartoons are the level of commentary that you are following now I can only say that your level of research/academia has diminished greatly since your retirement. You seem to have become intellectually lazy in your later years if political cartoons are the basis for a logical,studied debate about politics.


Like I said, insult all you like, it obviously makes you feel superior..... i'll just chalk it up to _pro bono_ therapy.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> What ? It is not "conditional" it is just matching dollar for dollar. This is hardly anything new when it comes to government contributions. It has been in place for a very long time now.
> 
> It boggles my mind as to how you can construe this to be a bad thing.


Do or Do Not there is no Nice try!



National Post said:


> Moore — the federal Industry Minister, who is not seeking re-election — said Sunday in Port Moody, B.C., that a Conservative government would commit up to $35 million to match donations made during this year’s Terry Fox Run, if the party is re-elected in October.


"...if the party is re-elected in October." The foregoing is a conditional statement: if Conservatives Party is re-elected to government.

Wilfully blindness please? Or is it the effects of drinking the blue kool-aid?

Tory campaign ‘mistake’ angers Terry Fox’s family: ‘There is no place in the fight against cancer for politics’ | National Post


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Do or Do Not there is no Nice try!
> 
> 
> 
> "...if the party is re-elected in October." The foregoing is a conditional statement: if Conservatives Party is re-elected to government.
> 
> Wilfully blindness please? Or is it the effects of drinking the blue kool-aid?
> 
> Tory campaign ‘mistake’ angers Terry Fox’s family: ‘There is no place in the fight against cancer for politics’ | National Post


I am sure Harper is pissed off with him for speaking out of place.

Yep that was bad.He isn't even running for re-election so he should have kept his mouth shut.


----------



## CubaMark

*A little light reading.....*

Ten facts about Canada's arms deal with Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents


----------



## Vandave

rgray said:


> I happen to largely agree with the sentiments expressed in these cartoons. They encapsulate quite eloquently my opinions.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *A little light reading.....*
> 
> Ten facts about Canada's arms deal with Saudi Arabia
> 
> Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents


Agreed the Saudis are bad... very bad when it comes to human rights.

But we all know governments around the world deal with governments who have bad human rights records. It is just a fact that I am sure you are of aware of as an educated man.

Truth be told it amounts to dealing with the lesser of evils according to ones principles and that can vary greatly depending on ones political proclivities.


----------



## Macfury

Canada trades with Cuba... go figure.



screature said:


> Agreed the Saudis are bad... very bad when it comes to human rights.
> 
> But we all know governments around the world deal with governments who have bad human rights records. It is just a fact that I am sure you are of aware of as an educated man.
> 
> Truth be told it amounts to dealing with the lesser of evils according to ones principles and that can vary greatly depending on ones political proclivities.


----------



## FeXL

But it's not your opinion. It's someone else's. All you are doing is reposting it with no accompanying comment, whether you agree with it or not, why or why not, what you would do to change the situation or keep it the status quo, etc.

It goes to credibility.



rgray said:


> But it is also my right to post my opinion in a way that best expresses it.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I expected that the NDP would falter and drop back into the mid to high 20's, back to their traditional level of support. I think the drop from 35% to 29% is indicative of a trend that will continue. I think the NDP blew it 2 or 3 weeks ago by failing to hold that support.
> 
> 
> 
> I think early polling going into an election is very superficial. Once people start talking about issues, it forces them back into their natural beliefs and tendencies, unless we become disgusted with the party is power and want them gone (then we go to our second choice). I think people temporarily gave the NDP their vote in polling to register a protest, but they are reverting back to the mean.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the election is between the Liberals and Conservatives although polling shows a 3 way tie. I think going forward, the NDP bleeds support to Liberals and some of that get passed on to the Conservatives (e.g. people like myself).
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Liberals can pull off a victory by taking that 'anybody but Harper vote' over the next couple weeks and pulling ahead of the NDP and keeping a gap of at least 5%. That will lock in that group. Once ahead and in the final week, you pull out Paul Martin to give you some of that centre-right vote. Together, that gets you into the mid 30's and more seats than anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Conservative path to victory is continuing to hit on the economy and believe it or not, playing up Harper. I saw a poll today that said Harper is viewed as the best potential PM of the bunch with numbers towards 40%.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the left is making the same mistake they made in the last 4 elections which is playing up the fear-mongering and hate for Harper. Every election these guys think it's the time Canadian's will reject Harper but he just keeps getting stronger. You think they'd learn. :lmao: But when you look at his leadership numbers, he has room to gain, and that doesn't match the rhetoric you hear in the media or by others.



This is what the Alberta NDP wisely avoided in the spring election: they did not run a negative campaign. Rachel Notley emerged as the symbol hope and confidence, compared with Jim Prentice's grim forecast for the future. To topple a 44 year dynasty takes more than just whining about the previous gov't: it takes a vision. I don't think Mulcair has that vision. He just seems like an opportunist to my eyes, and it seems he hasn't stopped smiling since May 5, not because he is happy for Notley's crew, but because he assumes that translates into a win for him. However, he hasn't earned it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> What ? It is not "conditional" it is just matching dollar for dollar. This is hardly anything new when it comes to government contributions. It has been in place for a very long time now.
> 
> 
> 
> It boggles my mind as to how you can construe this to be a bad thing.



If the government has $100,000 set aside to donate to a charity, why not just donate it? Why play games? I know they want to encourage other donors, but seriously, this seems like childish games. We only got $10,000 in donations, so we're only going to donate $10,000, even though we've already got another $90,000 ear-marked for this cause.

That's how I construe (not misconstrue) this to be a bad thing. It's holding back when there's no need to be stingy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

FFS.

Thick, thick, thick...



fjnmusic said:


> To topple a 44 year dynasty takes more than just whining about the previous gov't: It takes a vision.


Neither did she. It was gifted to her.



fjnmusic said:


> However, he hasn't earned it.


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> I happen to largely agree with the sentiments expressed in these cartoons. They encapsulate quite eloquently my opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> Is your problem with them that most of them are anti-Harpo?? Because it is only you knee-jerk righties that object.
> 
> 
> 
> That should come as no surprise to you because the latest 308 poll figures show that at the present time 69.9% of the country is anti-Harpo, so in fact these cartoons are expressing the mood of the country as a whole!!!
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to express counter opinions, that is your absolute right.
> 
> 
> 
> But it is also my right to post my opinion in a way that best expresses it.
> 
> 
> 
> And you can insult me all you like if it makes you feel better - but I'd rather you directed your comment to the idea expressed.



Take no heed, rgray. Haters gonna hate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> Because it's a way to double down on people feeling good about themselves. :lmao:
> 
> 
> 
> If you donate $10, you can feel like you donated $20. The guys who actually donated that extra $10 count that as a win too.
> 
> 
> 
> So we get $30 of good feeling out of a $20 donation.



Perhaps, but isn't it better for the recipient to get the maximum contribution possible? So if the citizenry comes up with $50,000 and the gov't pledges up to $100,000, the recipient could stand to get $150,000 instead of $100,000. That ought to make EVERYONE feel better, not to mention buy more things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> FFS.
> 
> 
> 
> Thick, thick, thick...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither did she. It was gifted to her.



Weak commentary. Weak weak weak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

It's a meaningless number, devoid of any real information. You can say the same thing about the Liberals & NDP. 70% of the country doesn't want them in either.

Now what? Do we have a Mexican standoff now?



rgray said:


> That should come as no surprise to you because the latest 308 poll figures show that at the present time 69.9% of the country is anti-Harpo, so in fact these cartoons are expressing the mood of the country as a whole!!!


----------



## FeXL

What's weak is your understanding of what actually transpired during the last election. You have illustrated this time & again.

Enjoy your 3-1/2 years. The Alberta NDP will not be joining the ranks of the long-reigning. They will not be able to help themselves...



fjnmusic said:


> Weak weak weak.


----------



## Macfury

I found the Alberta NDP's message as horrifying as its execution.

Punishing the PCs and Wild Rose crossovers was top of mind for most of the electorate. Notley could have read the phone book and won.



fjnmusic said:


> This is what the Alberta NDP wisely avoided in the spring election: they did not run a negative campaign. Rachel Notley emerged as the symbol hope and confidence, compared with Jim Prentice's grim forecast for the future. To topple a 44 year dynasty takes more than just whining about the previous gov't: it takes a vision. I don't think Mulcair has that vision. He just seems like an opportunist to my eyes, and it seems he hasn't stopped smiling since May 5, not because he is happy for Notley's crew, but because he assumes that translates into a win for him. However, he hasn't earned it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps, but isn't it better for the recipient to get the maximum contribution possible? So if the citizenry comes up with $50,000 and the gov't pledges up to $100,000, the recipient could stand to get $150,000 instead of $100,000. That ought to make EVERYONE feel better, not to mention buy more things.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why not a nickel from the citizenry and a billion dollars from the government?


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> What's weak is your understanding of what actually transpired during the last election. You have illustrated this time & again.
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy your 3-1/2 years. The Alberta NDP will not be joining the ranks of the long-reigning. They will not be able to help themselves...



Doesn't really matter much what happens in three and a half years. They are in power NOW and you have to deal with it. They also came by it honestly, just like anyone else who wins an election. You seem to be in denial that that many Albertans might not really be right wing after all. I mean, they COULD'VE voted Wildrose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Wild Rose was definitely no longer a right wing party under Smith. It had been moving to the centre. The entire party was punished for the defections of Smith and her cronies to the PCS.

However, the NDP came by their win honestly, just as Bob Rae came honestly by the NDP election victory that devastated Ontario's economy.



fjnmusic said:


> Doesn't really matter much what happens in three and a half years. They are in power NOW and you have to deal with it. They also came by it honestly, just like anyone else who wins an election. You seem to be in denial that that many Albertans might not really be right wing after all. I mean, they COULD'VE voted Wildrose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps, but isn't it better for the recipient to get the maximum contribution possible? So if the citizenry comes up with $50,000 and the gov't pledges up to $100,000, the recipient could stand to get $150,000 instead of $100,000. That ought to make EVERYONE feel better, not to mention buy more things.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely it's better that way. But humans aren't about what's better so much as what's better for me.

The whole charity industry is a great study in human nature. We fail in so many ways. Fundraising is often wasteful. Spending is often ineffective. Charities often have high overhead. They have low accountability. They are run by dummies often. People build their little fiefdoms rather than merge and cooperate with like minded goals. People who donate are often dummies by picking bad causes. Charities often become political at the expense of their true mandates. 

I think big changes will come over the next ten years. The Internet will force greater transparency. More intelligent people, like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, are getting involved. I think at some point we get the Elon Musk of Charity and he gets it all sorted.


----------



## heavyall

Matching donations are a time tested way to get more people to donate. People want to help when they see others doing so. It raises more money for the charity. It's ALWAYS a good thing.

Challenges work really well too. That's the only part missing from the CPC Terry Fox pledge: they should have challenged the other parties to make the same commitment.


----------



## fjnmusic

It's interesting. Much of how we increase charitable donations appears to be gaming the system moreso than genuine altruism. We certainly live uninteresting times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

We mostly give thoughtfully and because we are rewarded, either tangibly or intangibly. Nothing wrong with that. It is not less than altruism.



fjnmusic said:


> It's interesting. Much of how we increase charitable donations appears to be gaming the system moreso than genuine altruism. We certainly live uninteresting times.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> It's interesting. Much of how we increase charitable donations appears to be gaming the system moreso than genuine altruism. We certainly live uninteresting times.


Most people are well meaning, but not well aware. They just need a nudge to show them where the good is, and then they really do want to help.

If my $10 could not possibly do a thing for a given cause by itself, but I see that $10 at a time multiplied by thousands is happening over here, now I know that's something that's worth getting behind. 

Kickstarters for causes and small businesses work in much the same way.


----------



## FeXL

It does matter, if they want to be re-elected. How they conduct themselves during the interim will bear fruit, one way or the other.



fjnmusic said:


> Doesn't really matter much what happens in three and a half years.


I am dealing with it. I am watching the bastards like a hawk & communicating with whomever I can.



fjnmusic said:


> They are in power NOW and you have to deal with it.


Not accusing them of any malfeasance in getting elected. Just since then...



fjnmusic said:


> They also came by it honestly, just like anyone else who wins an election.


Once again, your absolute lack of knowledge of what happened during the last election shows its skirts. It was not a left/right issue.



fjnmusic said:


> You seem to be in denial that that many Albertans might not really be right wing after all.


Again, asked & answered. Multiple times.



fjnmusic said:


> I mean, they COULD'VE voted Wildrose.


----------



## FeXL

Yes, the article is two years old. However, it sums up at least two of the issues nicely.

LCBO serves underage boy wearing burka, face veil



> Three liquor stores in the GTA recently sold booze to a 14-year-old boy whose identity was hidden because he was wearing a full-length burka and face veil at the time.
> 
> The teenager, clad in an Islamic female’s traditional garb of a burka, headscarf and facial covering, shopped in three different LCBO stores north of Toronto last Wednesday.


----------



## FeXL

Why the poor should pay higher rate tax

Yep...


----------



## Macfury

Interesting to see that the Liberals and CPC are now in a statistical dead heat with the NDP lagging. Not sure about seat projections yet, but I suspect they favour the CPC.

Edit: 308 says NDP last, CPC first.


----------



## Dr.G.

The Atlantic Canada election dynamic can't be ignored - The Globe and Mail

An interesting article .............. still, with the reality that any government can overlook Atlantic Canada and still win the election is a reality, if the truth be known. 

"With only 32 seats, Atlantic Canadians can sometimes feel overlooked in national elections, a sentiment expressed in a recent editorial in the Charlottetown Guardian newspaper. True, arithmetic is what it is. The new parliamentary ridings for Ontario, Alberta and B.C. will reduce Atlantic Canada’s share of the seats in the Commons."


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> Like I said, insult all you like, it obviously makes you feel superior..... i'll just chalk it up to _pro bono_ therapy.


Where was there an insult? I suggested you educate yourself. That is not an insult in my books just a recommendation. One that you probably have given over the years to some of your students. 

The rest of my post was based on the diminishing original content in your posts, something you regularly used to do. Now you try to defend your new found intellectual laziness by merely posting bad political cartoons as legitimate intellectual debate.

It seems, as many "teachers" do, you can hand out the criticism but you can't take it.

Oh and BTW I don't feel superior about anything. Like most of the rest of us I just continue to struggle through and do the best I can for myself, my family, my friends and my neighbours. If I can do that them I am doing well IMO.


----------



## Vandave

Dr.G. said:


> "With only 32 seats, Atlantic Canadians can sometimes feel overlooked in national elections, a sentiment expressed in a recent editorial in the Charlottetown Guardian newspaper. True, arithmetic is what it is. The new parliamentary ridings for Ontario, Alberta and B.C. will reduce Atlantic Canada’s share of the seats in the Commons."


Only? You guys get a disproportionate share of seats as it is. It's not democratic.

I guess you guys and Quebec are more equal than others.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, the federal NDP has attracted some real quality candidates:



> As she tried to explain away an Auschwitz-related penis joke, a Hamilton school trustee running for the NDP explained that she had actually never heard of the notorious Nazi death camp located in Poland.
> 
> “Well, I didn’t know what Auschwitz was, or I didn’t up until today,” Alex Johnstone, a Hamilton public school trustee, told a reporter for the Hamilton Spectator after a candidate’s debate.


Brilliant.

NDP candidate defends death camp-related penis joke: I didn’t know what Auschwitz was| National Post


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Yeah, the federal NDP has attracted some real quality candidates:
> Brilliant.


That's unbelievable. She's a friggin' School Trustee, and had *never heard of Auswitzch*?

She'd better have some other sterling qualities to make up for that enormous knowledge deficit.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> That's unbelievable. She's a friggin' School Trustee, and had *never heard of Auswitzch*?
> 
> She'd better have some other sterling qualities to make up for that enormous knowledge deficit.


Does not surprise me one little bit consdiering some of the sludge the NDP recruited here in Alberta that are now MLAs, Mark. The trend seems to have seeped into the federal campaign as well.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Does not surprise me one little bit consdiering some of the sludge the NDP recruited here in Alberta that are now MLAs, Mark. The trend seems to have seeped into the federal campaign as well.


Heh... Don, I can't let you get away with that. If the past several weeks have shown anything, it's that all parties have some real "winners" in their midst. At least she didn't pee into your coffee mug.... :lmao:


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Heh... Don, I can't let you get away with that. If the past several weeks have shown anything, it's that all parties have some real "winners" in their midst. At least she didn't pee into your coffee mug.... :lmao:



Exactly.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Tom Mulcair rated most competent, trustworthy of leaders*

The NDP's Tom Mulcair is rated the most competent and trustworthy of the five candidates vying to be prime minister, while Conservative Leader Stephen Harper is the least trustworthy and competent, according to the latest results from Vote Compass, CBC's online voter engagement survey.

Green Party Leader Elizabeth May follows Mulcair most closely on the issue of trust, while Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe comes second in competence.

The findings are based on 382,643 respondents who participated in Vote Compass between Aug. 29 and Sept. 20.

One of the reasons Harper ranks so low is that when the Vote Compass results are broken down by party preference, only Conservative voters give him high ratings, says Clifton van der Linden, founder and director of Vox Pop Labs, which developed Vote Compass.

By contrast, the other leaders received high ratings from their own voters as well as relatively decent ratings from supporters of the other parties.​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Vote Compass accepts anonymous survey participation and can be found... at the CBC web site. Is it any wonder that the results are skewed so heavily to "progressive" talking points? Let's put another survey site on Rabble so we can goose Mulcair's numbers even higher!


----------



## FeXL

More's the pity, Queenie...

'I won't ever run for office again': Alison Redford



> Former Alberta premier Alison Redford said on Wednesday that she will never run for public office again, breaking her silence since her controversial resignation in 2014.


Oh, & this 24k observation:



> Redford said she saw signs of change coming for Alberta long before Notley was elected in May.
> 
> “I think even when I started to get into politics, people talked about the fact that the demographics of Alberta have changed. We have a lot of people in Alberta who didn’t grow up in the province...


Curious. The prescient among us have been making that observation for well over a decade now.

No worries, though. She'll be snapped up for some plum job at the UN or some such.

Goodbye & good riddance...


----------



## Macfury

> “I think even when I started to get into politics, people talked about the fact that the demographics of Alberta have changed. We have a lot of people in Alberta who didn’t grow up in the province...


"Progressives" have been destroying the economies of many provinces--they then jump ship and find more successful province to pillage. They'll abandon Alberta like rats from a sinking ship after they gut its economy.


----------



## FeXL

Well, Angry Tom has painted himself into a corner with his political correctness.

Tom Mulcair appeals for tolerance as NDP’s niqab policy at odds with party’s Quebec base



> The election campaign in Quebec has turned nasty since the Federal Court of Appeal ruled last week a Toronto woman should be allowed to take the oath of citizenship wearing a niqab, and it is the NDP that is feeling the pinch the most.


Good.



> [Mulcair] accused Stephen Harper’s Conservatives of creating a “toxic” campaign by transforming the niqab court case into an election issue.


Damn straight it should be an election issue. Perhaps Tom figgers we should all just sit down & discuss our feelings instead.



> “The niqab question is the latest in the Conservative bag of tricks, an emotional issue, that in reality only directly affects a very small number of citizens, in a very specific situation, but which stirs up fear of the unknown and of the foreign.”


Well, if it affects such a small portion of the population, there won't be many hurt feelings when the decision is overthrown in appeals.



> “It’s clear to me that the niqab is not religious, it’s cultural,” [Montreal Mayor Denis] Coderre said. “And yes, the face must be uncovered for the entire citizenship procedure.”
> 
> He echoed Quebec City Mayor Régis Labeaume, who took to Facebook Wednesday to express his opinion.
> 
> “Personally, I am against the wearing of the niqab,” he wrote, adding women must have their faces uncovered in order to be identified for legal and administrative purposes.


Not often I agree with Quebecers on cultural issues. 100% with them here.


----------



## Macfury

Mulcair is the leader of Canada's top separatist party, so it'll be interesting to see if La Belle Province turns on him.


----------



## CubaMark

The niqab issue is more ridiculous political gameplay. No-one is suggesting allowing niqab-wearing women to take the oath without first confirming their identity to a female federal officer before proceeding to the oathtaking ceremony. 

More politics of fear. Playing on prejudices and bigotry to gain political points.

Simple sad.


----------



## Macfury

Some symbols of female oppression are OK, as long as the gals are good with it, eh CM?


----------



## Macfury

Oh, Tom!



> Poll Tracker: NDP slipping nationally as numbers slump in Quebec


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> The niqab issue is more ridiculous political gameplay. No-one is suggesting allowing niqab-wearing women to take the oath without first confirming their identity to a female federal officer before proceeding to the oathtaking ceremony.
> 
> More politics of fear. Playing on prejudices and bigotry to gain political points.
> 
> Simple sad.


It's a symbol of oppression and misogyny. It has no place in any civilized society. We ARE better than that here.


----------



## Vandave

heavyall said:


> It's a symbol of oppression and misogyny. It has no place in any civilized society. We ARE better than that here.


This. :clap:

The left is so politically correct that they have come full circle and become the things they once hated.

20 years ago, the left would have opposed this kind of thing. Same with censorship. The left used to hate censorship, now they're trying to shut everybody up. Idiots. tptptptp :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Some symbols of female oppression are OK, as long as the gals are good with it, eh CM?


So you and your pals on the cultural Right would strip them forcibly to comply with your cultural beliefs?

I personally find religious clothing requirements ridiculous. But then, I find all religion ridiculous. But as a man, I sure as hell won't tell a women what she can and can't wear. There are so many personal / cultural / religious / even political reasons for why some women wear religiously-mandated clothing. 

But you guys are jumping around the point: Are you pissed that a women - once appropriately identified - then chooses to cover her face for the oath of citizenship, or are you just patriarchal western men demanding that women follow your demands to behave like (some) western women?

From where I'm standing, your attitude lands well into the definition of boorish.


----------



## Vandave

Patriarchy. I am the one who Patriarchs. beejacon


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> So you and your pals on the cultural Right would strip them forcibly to comply with your cultural beliefs?
> .


Not just the right. A majority of all Canadians from any political stripe. That's why Mulcair has flip-flopped on this: he recognized he was on the wrong side of the issue.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> So you and your pals on the cultural Right would strip them forcibly to comply with your cultural beliefs?


No force. They could choose not to comply with the requirements of citizenship.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> It's a symbol of oppression and misogyny. It has no place in any civilized society. We ARE better than that here.



And if a woman CHOOSES to wear the niqab? Then taking away the right to wear it is a symbol of oppression and misogyny.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> So you and your pals on the cultural Right would strip them forcibly to comply with your cultural beliefs?
> 
> 
> 
> I personally find religious clothing requirements ridiculous. But then, I find all religion ridiculous. But as a man, I sure as hell won't tell a women what she can and can't wear. There are so many personal / cultural / religious / even political reasons for why some women wear religiously-mandated clothing.
> 
> 
> 
> But you guys are jumping around the point: Are you pissed that a women - once appropriately identified - then chooses to cover her face for the oath of citizenship, or are you just patriarchal western men demanding that women follow your demands to behave like (some) western women?
> 
> 
> 
> From where I'm standing, your attitude lands well into the definition of boorish.



It doesn't really matter what their opinion is on the subject. The law is the law and the Supreme Court has ruled on the matter. Whining about it won't change the outcome. Niqabs are allowed at citizenship ceremonies if the woman chooses to wear one.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

They have the right to wear the garments of oppression--except at a citizenship ceremony and while having official photos taken.



fjnmusic said:


> And if a woman CHOOSES to wear the niqab? Then taking away the right to wear it is a symbol of oppression and misogyny.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> They have the right to wear the garments of oppression--except at a citizenship ceremony and while having official photos taken.


And in a bank, and on a plane, and in court, and any other place where confirming a person's ID might be required, or where someone who is not supposed to be there could be hiding in plain sight -- the changerooms at a public pool for instance.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> It doesn't really matter what their opinion is on the subject. The law is the law and the Supreme Court has ruled on the matter.


The Supreme court hasn't even heard the case, let alone ruled on it. The lower court ruling is being appealed (as it should be, even Mulcair agrees), and if they have to the govt will over-rule the courts (and yes, they do have the power to do that).


----------



## rgray




----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> The niqab issue is more ridiculous political gameplay. No-one is suggesting allowing niqab-wearing women to take the oath without first confirming their identity to a female federal officer before proceeding to the oathtaking ceremony.
> 
> More politics of fear. Playing on prejudices and bigotry to gain political points.
> 
> Simple sad.


Over 70 % of Canadians agree with the Conservative policy according to the last polls CM. One again the federal Courts are out of step with the electorate as has happened time and again recently. They seem to be more interested in creating policy rather than upholding the law. No wonder a growing number of Canadians see them as over stepping their bounds.

They are unelected and unaccountable to anyone, they have free reign to decide as they wish. Effectively they have been making or amending the laws of Canada for some time now. IMO they need their wings clipped a little bit as they have become quite brazen in their rulings over the years.

If you think the Supreme Court Judges are politically neutral you are sorrily mistaken and naive. They are still human beings replete with their own personal proclivities and beliefs.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The Supreme court hasn't even heard the case, let alone ruled on it. The lower court ruling is being appealed (as it should be, even Mulcair agrees), and if they have to the govt will over-rule the courts (and yes, they do have the power to do that).


fjn doesn't let facts get in the way of his spleen-he thinks it's already over!


----------



## FeXL

Reminder to self: Must use this line in future discussions when fjnmusic's opinion doesn't follow the explicit letter of the law...



fjnmusic said:


> It doesn't really matter what their opinion is on the subject. The law is the law...


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> The Supreme court hasn't even heard the case, let alone ruled on it


This.

Do try to keep up, fjn...


----------



## FeXL

So, how do you tell? Just ask? Riiiiight...



fjnmusic said:


> And if a woman CHOOSES to wear the niqab?


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> And if a woman CHOOSES to wear the niqab?


What if I choose to wear a balaclava in a bank, or while boarding a plane?


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> What if I choose to wear a balaclava in a bank, or while boarding a plane?


Don't let THE MAN oppress you, heavyall!


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

It isn't a recession. Any fool can see that.


----------



## Macfury

Good news!

Conservatives swing into lead, close in on majority government, new poll suggests | Toronto Star



> Stephen Harper’s Conservative party has taken a commanding lead in the federal election race, a new poll suggests.
> 
> With less than a month to go in the campaign, and heading into the first of three leaders debates, the Tories have moved ahead of their rivals with the support of 35.4 per cent of voters, according to the Ekos poll conducted for Montreal’s La Presse newspaper.
> 
> Justin Trudeau and the Liberals have 26.3 per cent support and the NDP has the backing of 24.5 per cent of respondents. The poll questioned 2,343 people between Sept. 17 and Sept. 22 and is considered accurate to within two percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
> 
> The results would seem to smash the notion of a three-way horserace that has been recorded in polls conducted through the first eight weeks of the election campaign.
> 
> “If (the Conservatives) keep those numbers up they’re very close to a majority — if not there already,” said pollster Frank Graves. “The numbers are about as good as we had for the final weekend of polling (in the 2011 election) when they achieved their majority.”


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Good news!
> 
> Conservatives swing into lead, close in on majority government, new poll suggests | Toronto Star


Too early to tell just yet. Polling is a confused art, and pundits have been wrong more often than right lately. The only poll that counts is the vote talley.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Too early to tell just yet. Polling is a confused art, and pundits have been wrong more often than right lately. The only poll that counts is the vote talley.


Of course. However, I would rather see a poll overwhelmingly supporting my candidate than any of the others--thus I am sharing the good news.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It isn't a recession. Any fool can see that.


Fact-check time: Was Canada in a recession or not? - Macleans.ca

Oliver denies recession, but data suggest otherwise - The Globe and Mail

Oliver's no recession claim derided in Alberta as 'Nero fiddling while Rome burned'

Canadian GDP outlook slashed to 1.2% with 3 provinces in recession - Business - CBC News

Canadian economy in recession, GDP figures confirm | Toronto Star

Country bracing for 'made in Canada' recession: former chief statistician | CTV News


----------



## Macfury

The numbers don't bear it out, CM. Watch for the September 30th revision numbers on the economy.

RBC sees positive signs for economy despite lower projected growth - MRO Magazine



> Toronto – Ongoing weakness in the energy sector has prompted RBC Economics to downgrade its latest forecast for the Canadian economy. It says Canada’s real GDP is projected to grow 1.2% this year – down from its June prediction of 1.8% growth. RBC also predicts 2.2% growth in 2016 – 0.4% below its earlier predictions.
> 
> However, RBC says while the economy contracted mildly in both the first and second quarters of 2015, the depth of the decline was marginal and the weakness was concentrated mostly in the energy sector.
> 
> RBC says it expects positive economic activity outside of the energy sector to offset momentum lost in the first half of the year.
> 
> Provincial economies continue to be divided between oil producers and oil consumers, with the fallout from plunging oil prices significantly lowering the outlook for economic activity in Newfoundland and Labrador, Alberta and Saskatchewan.
> 
> RBC says the prospects for Ontario, BC and Quebec are brighter, as well as for most of the other oil-consuming provinces, although the expected liftoff in growth generally has been delayed.
> 
> *“The recent softening in the Canadian economy caused a flurry of recession talk, which we believe to be misplaced,” said RBC senior vice-president and chief economist Craig Wright.*


----------



## eMacMan

You can bet the farm that after the deadline the Harper will claim he did not know, but he has been informed. As has the idiot in charge of Finance.

If they act before September 30, the transfer of private banking information of Canadian citizens to the IRS under the FATCA-IGA can be delayed until the same date in 2016.

Failure to request this delay, should in my opinion result in criminal prosecutions.


----------



## heavyall

EKOS usually suppresses the CPC numbers. If they are admitting that they have the Conservatives ahead, it's probably an even bigger lead than they are letting on.


----------



## heavyall

Jobs are up, taxes are down, exports are up, interest rates are low, government revenues are up, the budget is in surplus, the debt to GDP ratio is shrinking, the middle class is growing. 

If that's "recession", I'll take it over the double digit unemployment, double digit interest rates, and high inflation we saw multiple times under the previous few Prime Ministers.


----------



## Macfury

When oil prices come back next year, it will be looking even better. 

It's interesting that the US can now produce oil using fracking technologies _at a profit_ with oil prices at just $50 a barrel. All of the kook-fringe Alberta nutbars who want to see $80 a barrel royalties "like they do in Norway" could see virtually all oil production move from Alberta to other provinces and the US.

With Canada in good shape, Alberta could be relegated to have-not status. 



heavyall said:


> Jobs are up, taxes are down, exports are up, interest rates are low, government revenues are up, the budget is in surplus, the debt to GDP ratio is shrinking, the middle class is growing.
> 
> If that's "recession", I'll take it over the double digit unemployment, double digit interest rates, and high inflation we saw multiple times under the previous few Prime Ministers.


----------



## Rps

On July 31st I made this prediction 

here is my best guess for today:
Cons 151
Libs. 110
NDP. 67
BQ. 10
Gr. 0

While I haven't decided who to vote for.....and I may just refuse my ballot this year, I still hold by my first prediction.


----------



## Macfury

That's a very bold prediction for the BQ. Do you care to elaborate, rps?



Rps said:


> On July 31st I made this prediction
> 
> here is my best guess for today:
> Cons 151
> Libs. 110
> NDP. 67
> BQ. 10
> Gr. 0
> 
> While I haven't decided who to vote for.....and I may just refuse my ballot this year, I still hold by my first prediction.


----------



## CubaMark

*The Conservatives hold 13 seats in Atlantic Canada. They're in danger of losing 10*

The federal riding of South Shore St. Margaret’s stretches south along the rocky coast of Nova Scotia from Halifax to the lobster fishing village of Clarke’s Harbour, taking in such iconic landmarks as Peggy’s Cove and the historic port of Lunenburg.

It’s rolling countryside that has been painted Conservative blue since 1968, with a brief four-year Liberal interregnum in the 1980s.

But after Oct. 19, it is likely that it will no longer be blue — and it’s possible that its fate will be shared by every other Conservative riding in Nova Scotia.

* * *​
“The Conservative changes to employment insurance are a big deal. Fishermen in Shelburne have to drive 100 km to Liverpool or Bridgewater to get alternative employment and there’s a lot of frustration with that. People feel short-changed. They’re not seasonal workers by choice,” he said.

Melvin, a Boutiliers Point senior, is repairing a mower in his yard when Godbold shows up and asks if he is thinking of voting NDP.

“Oh probably. I’ve been listening to some of this stuff. Harper there — he’s got to go,” he says.

“I haven’t decided yet but I’ve ruled out the Conservatives for sure. Anybody can do better than Harper,” says another lady.

The comment is repeated in some variation at every one of the 15 homes Godbold visits in the course of the next hour or so.

* * *​
But after door-knocking with candidates in three Maritime ridings, and talking to a number of knowledgeable party insiders, the conclusion is inescapable: Of the 14 seats in the region the Conservatives won in 2011, they are in danger of losing 10.

One MP suggested winning seven out of the 13 the party still holds would be a good result. More likely, the Tories will cling to four or five seats in New Brunswick and emerge from Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador and Prince Edward Island with only a seat or two. Or none.

* * *​
A Corporate Research Associates poll this month put the Conservatives at 22% support in Atlantic Canada, and Stephen Harper’s popularity rating at 17%.

The reasons the brand is largely toxic on the East Coast are many and complex — ranging from EI changes to concerns the region will lose billions when health transfers are effectively cut.

One senior Conservative in the region is seething at what he believes are missed opportunities. “It goes back to the undeniable truth that the people running the campaign have been an unmitigated disaster. They wrote us off — full stop.

That’s in an election where 10 seats could not only be the difference between majority and minority, but between government and opposition. It was a dumb-ass strategy.”

He said any attempt to tailor the message to more traditional Progressive Conservative tastes have been resisted in Ottawa.
“It’s going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up.”

* * *​
One lady is clearly distraught when she talks about her son already planning to move away when he graduates from university because of lack of work opportunities. Fillmore suggests that the Liberal party’s $60-billion infrastructure plan would be “transformative” for the regional economy and create jobs for graduates like her son.

The Liberal “wrap-around” strategy is intended to out-flank the NDP on social policy and the Tories on middle-class taxes, financed by dipping into modest budget deficits. It’s not yet apparent that voters have bought in to the idea.

* * *​
Even the Conservative candidate’s pitch centred on Ottawa’s role in securing the naval shipbuilding contract for the city’s Irving Shipyard, creating 15,000 jobs. “We did that without a sitting member. Imagine what we could do if we had a sitting member,” said Carvery.
But what the Conservatives do and say in Halifax is irrelevant. This is two-way fight, and it was instructive that Leslie made a virtue of the NDP’s new “balanced” approach when she summed up her party’s position.

The Liberals are promising “flashy spending sprees that will turn into austerity.”

The NDP has a more cautious plan. “It might not be sexy but it’s good governance,” she said.

* * *​
There is some resistance to Justin Trudeau, the Liberal leader, particularly from older men. Two seniors on Boutiliers Point independently referred to him as: “The guy who’s not ready.”

But the race for South Shore is still too close to call.

Jordan says she was at an elementary school where one student approached her and said her dad had to go out west to work. “She asked me: ‘Can you do something to make sure my dad doesn’t have to go west?’”

Voters across the region aren’t yet persuaded about who has the most convincing economic plan to halt out-migration. But huge swathes of Atlantic Canada seem set that whatever the question, the answer is not Stephen Harper’s Conservatives.​
(National Post)


----------



## Macfury

Somebody did it already--they elected Notley!



CubaMark said:


> Jordan says she was at an elementary school where one student approached her and said her dad had to go out west to work. “She asked me: ‘Can you do something to make sure my dad doesn’t have to go west?’”


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Somebody did it already--they elected Notley!


Actually... you know,* in reality*... the repatriation of Nova Scotians and Newfoundlanders (and others, of course) began long before the NDP came to power in Alberta.

Now Nova Scotia not only faces an ageing population; very low population growth; a provincial government that seems determined to actively run the province into the ground... we also have many residents who have returned permanently from the oil fields, twiddling their thumbs in a moribund economy. It ain't looking good....


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *The Conservatives hold 13 seats in Atlantic Canada. They're in danger of losing 10*
> 
> The federal riding of South Shore St. Margaret’s stretches south along the rocky coast of Nova Scotia from Halifax to the lobster fishing village of Clarke’s Harbour, taking in such iconic landmarks as Peggy’s Cove and the historic port of Lunenburg.
> 
> It’s rolling countryside that has been painted Conservative blue since 1968, with a brief four-year Liberal interregnum in the 1980s.
> 
> But after Oct. 19, it is likely that it will no longer be blue — and it’s possible that its fate will be shared by every other Conservative riding in Nova Scotia.
> 
> * * *​
> “The Conservative changes to employment insurance are a big deal. Fishermen in Shelburne have to drive 100 km to Liverpool or Bridgewater to get alternative employment and there’s a lot of frustration with that. People feel short-changed. They’re not seasonal workers by choice,” he said.
> 
> Melvin, a Boutiliers Point senior, is repairing a mower in his yard when Godbold shows up and asks if he is thinking of voting NDP.
> 
> “Oh probably. I’ve been listening to some of this stuff. Harper there — he’s got to go,” he says.
> 
> “I haven’t decided yet but I’ve ruled out the Conservatives for sure. Anybody can do better than Harper,” says another lady.
> 
> The comment is repeated in some variation at every one of the 15 homes Godbold visits in the course of the next hour or so.
> 
> * * *​
> But after door-knocking with candidates in three Maritime ridings, and talking to a number of knowledgeable party insiders, the conclusion is inescapable: Of the 14 seats in the region the Conservatives won in 2011, they are in danger of losing 10.
> 
> One MP suggested winning seven out of the 13 the party still holds would be a good result. More likely, the Tories will cling to four or five seats in New Brunswick and emerge from Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador and Prince Edward Island with only a seat or two. Or none.
> 
> * * *​
> A Corporate Research Associates poll this month put the Conservatives at 22% support in Atlantic Canada, and Stephen Harper’s popularity rating at 17%.
> 
> The reasons the brand is largely toxic on the East Coast are many and complex — ranging from EI changes to concerns the region will lose billions when health transfers are effectively cut.
> 
> One senior Conservative in the region is seething at what he believes are missed opportunities. “It goes back to the undeniable truth that the people running the campaign have been an unmitigated disaster. They wrote us off — full stop.
> 
> That’s in an election where 10 seats could not only be the difference between majority and minority, but between government and opposition. It was a dumb-ass strategy.”
> 
> He said any attempt to tailor the message to more traditional Progressive Conservative tastes have been resisted in Ottawa.
> “It’s going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up.”
> 
> * * *​
> One lady is clearly distraught when she talks about her son already planning to move away when he graduates from university because of lack of work opportunities. Fillmore suggests that the Liberal party’s $60-billion infrastructure plan would be “transformative” for the regional economy and create jobs for graduates like her son.
> 
> The Liberal “wrap-around” strategy is intended to out-flank the NDP on social policy and the Tories on middle-class taxes, financed by dipping into modest budget deficits. It’s not yet apparent that voters have bought in to the idea.
> 
> * * *​
> Even the Conservative candidate’s pitch centred on Ottawa’s role in securing the naval shipbuilding contract for the city’s Irving Shipyard, creating 15,000 jobs. “We did that without a sitting member. Imagine what we could do if we had a sitting member,” said Carvery.
> But what the Conservatives do and say in Halifax is irrelevant. This is two-way fight, and it was instructive that Leslie made a virtue of the NDP’s new “balanced” approach when she summed up her party’s position.
> 
> The Liberals are promising “flashy spending sprees that will turn into austerity.”
> 
> The NDP has a more cautious plan. “It might not be sexy but it’s good governance,” she said.
> 
> * * *​
> There is some resistance to Justin Trudeau, the Liberal leader, particularly from older men. Two seniors on Boutiliers Point independently referred to him as: “The guy who’s not ready.”
> 
> But the race for South Shore is still too close to call.
> 
> Jordan says she was at an elementary school where one student approached her and said her dad had to go out west to work. “She asked me: ‘Can you do something to make sure my dad doesn’t have to go west?’”
> 
> Voters across the region aren’t yet persuaded about who has the most convincing economic plan to halt out-migration. But huge swathes of Atlantic Canada seem set that whatever the question, the answer is not Stephen Harper’s Conservatives.​
> (National Post)


South Shore St. Margaret’s is my district, and it is close between the NDP and the Liberals.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Actually... you know,* in reality*... the repatriation of Nova Scotians and Newfoundlanders (and others, of course) began long before the NDP came to power in Alberta.
> 
> Now Nova Scotia not only faces an ageing population; very low population growth; a provincial government that seems determined to actively run the province into the ground... we also have many residents who have returned permanently from the oil fields, twiddling their thumbs in a moribund economy. It ain't looking good....


Interesting, but here in Lunenburg, folks are returning to set up small businesses, and some, like my wife and I, have come here to retire.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> What if I choose to wear a balaclava in a bank, or while boarding a plane?



I thought we were talking about citizenship ceremonies. My guess is someone could show up naked to one of these things and no one would know the difference if it wasn't reported in the media. I've never attended a citizenship ceremony and I'll bet you never have either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The numbers don't bear it out, CM. Watch for the September 30th revision numbers on the economy.
> 
> 
> 
> RBC sees positive signs for economy despite lower projected growth - MRO Magazine



Your source clearly contradicts other published sources, like the CTV. 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...parate-major-parties-nanos-tracking-1.2580686










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

When you count in the margin of error any one of the Parties could be in the lead or could be coming in last or next to last.


----------



## Macfury

I was referring to the EKOS poll.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I was referring to the EKOS poll.



That's the nice thing about polls. We can cherry pick whichever one we want to give us the desired results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

308 has consistently shown a Conservative win by seat count for weeks. i don't need to cherry pick.



fjnmusic said:


> That's the nice thing about polls. We can cherry pick whichever one we want to give us the desired results.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> I thought we were talking about citizenship ceremonies. My guess is someone could show up naked to one of these things and no one would know the difference if it wasn't reported in the media. I've never attended a citizenship ceremony and I'll bet you never have either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are two parts to the citizenship ceremonies. First is mainly paperwork and identity confirmation. At this point her identity would be confirmed. It would not be difficult for this to be done in private before a female officer of the court, which would remove any objections she might have to revealing her face.

The second part involves a lot of speechifying, a mass oath of allegiance, and presentation of the citizenship certificates. I can see absolutely no reason why any one should be uncomfortable with her covering her face for this portion of the proceedings. Truthfully I think only a total ass would even notice.

The one I attended had individuals from over thirty countries. Almost as many languages as my small community can boast.


----------



## 18m2

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting, but here in Lunenburg, folks are returning to set up small businesses, and some, like my wife and I, have come here to retire.


We are visiting NS and a good work program would be to employ people to fix the monster size pot holes in the highways, clean up the road kill and maybe add tourist related directions signs after dumping tourists off the highway to a "T" intersection with no idea if its right or left.

Other than those complaints we are really enjoying our tour of the Maritimes especially a short cruise on the Bluenose II.


----------



## Macfury

I don't agree. No special accommodations should be made. People on EhMac will be adamant on "separation of church and state" on innocuous issues--involving Christmas decorations at City Hall for example--then demand we bend over backwards on something like this because "it would be no trouble at all." Don't like the citizenship ceremony? Don't become a citizen. 

Individuals at your citizenship ceremony came from 30 countries? Great. Get used to the rules of your new country.



eMacMan said:


> There are two parts to the citizenship ceremonies. First is mainly paperwork and identity confirmation. At this point her identity would be confirmed. It would not be difficult for this to be done in private before a female officer of the court, which would remove any objections she might have to revealing her face.
> 
> The second part involves a lot of speechifying, a mass oath of allegiance, and presentation of the citizenship certificates. I can see absolutely no reason why any one should be uncomfortable with her covering her face for this portion of the proceedings. Truthfully I think only a total ass would even notice.
> 
> The one I attended had individuals from over thirty countries. Almost as many languages as my small community can boast.


----------



## Dr.G.

18m2 said:


> We are visiting NS and a good work program would be to employ people to fix the monster size pot holes in the highways, clean up the road kill and maybe add tourist related directions signs after dumping tourists off the highway to a "T" intersection with no idea if its right or left.
> 
> Other than those complaints we are really enjoying our tour of the Maritimes especially a short cruise on the Bluenose II.


Glad you liked your Bluenose II cruise. She is a beauty.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I don't agree. No special accommodations should be made. People on EhMac will be adamant on "separation of church and state" on innocuous issues--involving Christmas decorations at City Hall for example--then demand we bend over backwards on something like this because "it would be no trouble at all." Don't like the citizenship ceremony? Don't become a citizen.
> 
> Individuals at your citizenship ceremony came from 30 countries? Great. Get used to the rules of your new country.


So you would suggest that the Siekh who wears his turban, the Jew who wears his yallmika (not sure how that is spelled), or the Christian who wears a cross should be similarly banned? After all these too are symbols of those individuals devotion to their faith. Each of them might make others in the room uncomfortable should they choose to be so petty as to allow it. To single out Muslim women in such a manner is in my opinion obscene. Especially as it has zero impact on the ceremony itself. 

Remember at no point during the actual ceremony is anyone asked to prove their identity. That is done ahead of time.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> So you would suggest that the Siekh who wears his turban, the Jew who wears his yallmika (not sure how that is spelled), or the Christian who wears a cross should be similarly banned? After all these too are symbols of those individuals devotion to their faith. Each of them might make others in the room uncomfortable should they choose to be so petty as to allow it. To single out Muslim women in such a manner is in my opinion obscene. Especially as it has zero impact on the ceremony itself.
> 
> Remember at no point during the actual ceremony is anyone asked to prove their identity. That is done ahead of time.


Bob, it is spelled yarmulke, meaning skullcap in Yiddish. Shalom, mon ami. I would have been allowed to wear one at my Canadian citizenship swearing in ceremony.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Bob, it is spelled yarmulke, meaning skullcap in Yiddish. Shalom, mon ami. I would have been allowed to wear one at my Canadian citizenship swearing in ceremony.


Thanks. Spell check came up a cropper and I failed to tree it in the pictures when I headed for the dictionary.


----------



## Macfury

Yes--all yarmulkes and turbans that do not cover the face would be fine.



eMacMan said:


> So you would suggest that the Siekh who wears his turban, the Jew who wears his yallmika (not sure how that is spelled), or the Christian who wears a cross should be similarly banned? After all these too are symbols of those individuals devotion to their faith. Each of them might make others in the room uncomfortable should they choose to be so petty as to allow it. To single out Muslim women in such a manner is in my opinion obscene. Especially as it has zero impact on the ceremony itself.
> 
> Remember at no point during the actual ceremony is anyone asked to prove their identity. That is done ahead of time.


----------



## BigDL

To paraphrase the Conservative's attack advertisement:

The face vail, is this the biggest problem to be solved... Harper needs some growing up.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> That's a very bold prediction for the BQ. Do you care to elaborate, rps?


Sure, the Niqab.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> 308 has consistently shown a Conservative win by seat count for weeks. i don't need to cherry pick.



By looking at the results of only one poll, the 308, cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Besides, shouldn't that poll be renamed the 338 now?


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## CubaMark

*Why is NRCan's fuel price report suspended during election?*

They strive for facelessness, but for seekers of impartial facts, the people who make up Canada's professional public service comprise a national treasure.

Ultimately, serious research at some point usually leads to their door.

Anyone who knows where to look knows that the government's thousands of experts regularly produce data vital to understanding our economy and governance, and that they try, at least, to do it without fear or favour.

Where would an economist be without access to the Bank of Canada's archives?

Today, though, the Canadian public service is generally regarded as muzzled, more so than at any time in the modern era.

The current government seems to consider information a political tool, easily weaponized, and has ordered bureaucrats largely to refrain from communication with the general public they are supposed to serve. With particular emphasis, of course, on the media.

Naturally, that can become creeping self-censorship, as a matter of career self-interest.

How else to explain the suppression, at the outset of this election, of Natural Resources Canada's Fuel Focus Report?

The biweekly report, published on the NRCan website, is a rich collection of statistics on gasoline prices, a subject of interest to just about every consumer.

* * *​
...once the election was called that data was pulled offline, shutting down an impartial source of information to anyone who might want a serious discussion of fuel prices during the long weeks of campaigning.

* * *​
An answer, of sorts, could be found in NRCan's fuel report, at least until it was suppressed in late July. 

* * *​
Asked why the report disappeared July 24, departmental spokeswoman Caitlin Workman replied by email: "During the election period, Natural Resources Canada is ‎minimizing the posting of new information online. For this reason, the posting of the department's market commentary has been temporarily suspended." ‎

She declined to say whether the directive came from the department's managers or from the political level, or why the fuel report was deemed sensitive enough to suspend.

She did note that the report was also suspended during the 2011 election (a period during which gasoline prices spiked).

The 2011 reports were published retroactively at a later date, she said, and that will happen again after Oct. 19.

* * *​
Ottawa has deliberately "cut off a flow of vital facts, hoping Canadians won't notice."

After the election was called, says Allan, the department "began to provide different pricing data. They make it so that you cannot see the price gouging."

Allan calls the information now on the government website a "Kafkaesque maze."

* * *​
What's unquestionably true is that one Canadian government department has decided to make it more difficult for voters to make an informed decision.​
(CBC)


----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> By looking at the results of only one poll, the 308, cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Besides, shouldn't that poll be renamed the 338 now?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Éric Grenier owns the rights to Three Hundred Eight.Com and says he has no plans of changing the name.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Éric Grenier owns the rights to Three Hundred Eight.Com and says he has no plans of changing the name.



Perhaps after this election, he may wish to recount the number of seats in the house. 


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## Macfury

As BigDL says, he has already made the decision to stick with his established brand name.



fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps after this election, he may wish to recount the number of seats in the house.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> As BigDL says, he has already made the decision to stick with his established brand name.



Exactly. So Eric Grenier, like the Conservative party itself, would apparently prefer to stay stuck in the past, when the House of Commons actually had 308 seats, than pay a few bucks for a new domain name. Glory Days...don't let 'em pass you by...


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## FeXL

You really know nothing about marketing & branding, do you...



fjnmusic said:


> Exactly. So Eric Grenier, like the Conservative party itself, would apparently prefer to stay stuck in the past, when the House of Commons actually had 308 seats, than pay a few bucks for a new domain name.


----------



## Macfury

Sure, go tell Grenier how to run a successful brand and business. I'll bet you can teach him a thing or two.



fjnmusic said:


> Exactly. So Eric Grenier, like the Conservative party itself, would apparently prefer to stay stuck in the past, when the House of Commons actually had 308 seats, than pay a few bucks for a new domain name. Glory Days...don't let 'em pass you by...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> You really know nothing about marketing & branding, do you...



I know plenty. This is what you would call a misleading title. But whatevs. He's one of many pollsters out there, and his charts and graphs are interesting, and he seems to be aware that there are now thirty more seats than there used to be, and that you now need 170 seats instead of 155 to have a majority gov't. If he thinks people would stop following his research if he updated the name of his company, that's his decision.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

One thing I find interesting with the 308's seat projection, in which the Cons fair considerably better than they do by popular vote, which currently has them in second place, not first (Libs at 30.8%), is that based on current numbers, the Cons stand the best chance of forming a minority's gov'y, not a majority. What do you think will happen to Stephen Harper if he gets a minority gov't on October 19? Will he resign like his buddy Jim Prentice? Will there be a leadership review? My feeling is that no matter what happens, Harper may well be gone before long. 
















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----------



## CubaMark

*Harper defends Canada’s military vehicle contract with Saudi Arabia*

Stephen Harper is defending a major military deal with Saudi Arabia in the face of questions about pervasive human rights abuses in that country.

He says cancelling the contract could punish Ontario plant workers.

The issue arises as a young man, arrested at age 17 for protesting the Saudi regime, faces imminent beheading and crucifixion in a country known for crackdowns on opponents and the repressive treatment of women.

“Notwithstanding its human rights violations, which are significant, this is a contract with a country that is an ally against the Islamic state, a contract that any one of our allies would have signed,” the Conservative leader said at an event in Riviere-du-Loup, Que.

* * *​
he Conservative government last year brokered a $14.8-billion contract to sell light armoured vehicles to the Saudis. The deal is forecast to create 3,000 jobs across southern Ontario, including directly with manufacturer General Dynamics Land Systems.

Human rights groups have warned that the Saudi regime might use the vehicles against its own people.

* * *​
The details of the vehicle deal have been kept confidential at the request of the Saudi government and Ottawa has said little about the human rights review that is supposed to occur as part of export control assessments.

“If Saudi Arabia is eligible to receive Canadian goods despite having those export controls, then who wouldn’t be eligible, because they’re at the bottom of the spectrum when it comes to human rights,” says Cesar Jaramillo, executive director of Project Ploughshares.

Harper offered no further details when asked specifically about assessments on Friday. It’s unclear whether the required due diligence has already been completed, and if so, what sort of safeguards have been built in.

* * *​
The situation is a delicate one for the Conservatives, who have traditionally portrayed themselves as unabashed defenders of human rights – Harper once declared he would not sell out Canadian values “to the almighty dollar,” in reference to China.

He often repeats in his nightly stump speech that his government doesn’t base its foreign policy on “polls or popularity,” nor does it court popularity with dictators to win votes at the United Nations.​
(GlobalNews)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Dr.G.

Watch South Park - Where My Country Gone?

Warning -- Typical South Park offensive language, but it is sort of funny.


----------



## SINC

Mulcair has no idea.

NDP plan to boost tax on stock options ‘a huge blow’ to Canada’s tech growth | Financial Post


----------



## SINC

Still want to bring a bunch of these people over here?

Germany in a state of SIEGE after Angela Merkel opened floodgates to migrants | Daily Mail Online


----------



## SINC

Ungrateful #$%^&&s

'Finland's no good': Disappointed migrants turn back


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> The niqab issue is more ridiculous political gameplay. No-one is suggesting allowing niqab-wearing women to take the oath without first confirming their identity to a female federal officer before proceeding to the oathtaking ceremony.
> 
> More politics of fear. Playing on prejudices and bigotry to gain political points.
> 
> Simple sad.


IMO you are wrong and 70% of Canadians agree with me.

Continue to disagree with me from you chosen place of resistance.

When you can come back home we can continue to have a much fulsome conversation.

As it is now you are just an expat of your own making and so is your wife and child ... so why not think about them first for once and get them back to Canada which is a much safer place.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Still want to bring a bunch of these people over here?
> 
> Germany in a state of SIEGE after Angela Merkel opened floodgates to migrants | Daily Mail Online


Please. Tens of thousands of people, and you're surprised that there are criminals / socially-maladjusted individuals among them? What's the typical percentage of psychopaths, rapists, murderers, etc., in a given population? 

Paint the entire refugee mass with the same brush. I seem to recall lots of howling whenever Conservatives as a whole are painted as uncaring bigoted money-hungry jerks...


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> IMO you are wrong and 70% of Canadians agree with me.


As you say, that's your _opinion_. I would love to see the poll question given to Canadians on the issue. No doubt something like "should women who wear a niqab or burka have to show their face when taking the oath of citizenship". That would probably garner strong affirmative answers. But if it were fleshed out to represent what is actually the case, that a covered woman before taking the oath would first have to verify her identity to a female federal officer before entering the oathtaking ceremony, I believe the answers would be more nuanced.



screature said:


> Continue to disagree with me from you chosen place of resistance.


What the hell does that have to do with anything? Have you jumped on the Harper bandwagon, that since I have lived outside of Canada for more than five years, my rights as a Canadian are fair play to be stripped away? Nice. tptptptp



screature said:


> As it is now you are just an expat of your own making and so is your wife and child ... so why not think about them first for once and get them back to Canada which is a much safer place.


You're making a lot of assumptions about me and my situation. If it were at all possible, we would be on an airplane tomorrow, heading North. But it's not possible at the moment, for reasons that I don't think I need to make any more public than I have already.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Please. Tens of thousands of people, and you're surprised that there are criminals / socially-maladjusted individuals among them? What's the typical percentage of psychopaths, rapists, murderers, etc., in a given population?
> 
> Paint the entire refugee mass with the same brush. I seem to recall lots of howling whenever Conservatives as a whole are painted as uncaring bigoted money-hungry jerks...


Where there is smoke, there surely is fire. Many here think we have enough issues without voluntarily adding more.


----------



## FeXL

Not if you think that changing an established name & website for no real reason is a smart move.

What happens next year or whenever, when there are suddenly 355 seats? Change it all to 355.com? And again, and again?

Brilliant...



fjnmusic said:


> I know plenty.


----------



## SINC

Much truth here.



> Canadians who care to look will see what a federal NDP government would look like by examining the actions of Alberta’s new NDP government under Premier Rachel Notley.
> Outwardly, Notley and her cabinet give the impression of being ideologically reasonable and fiscally prudent, just as federal New Democrat Leader Thomas Mulcair is doing.
> 
> But it’s a mask. It’s socialism with a smiling face.
> 
> Now that Notley’s provincial Dippers are safely in power,* their radical side is beginning to show.*


Canada's NDP future? See Alberta | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> As you say, that's your _opinion_. I would love to see the poll question given to Canadians on the issue. No doubt something like "should women who wear a niqab or burka have to show their face when taking the oath of citizenship". That would probably garner strong affirmative answers. But if it were fleshed out to represent what is actually the case, that a covered woman before taking the oath would first have to verify her identity to a female federal officer before entering the oathtaking ceremony, I believe the answers would be more nuanced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell does that have to do with anything? Have you jumped on the Harper bandwagon, that since I have lived outside of Canada for more than five years, my rights as a Canadian are fair play to be stripped away? Nice. tptptptp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're making a lot of assumptions about me and my situation. If it were at all possible, we would be on an airplane tomorrow, heading North. But it's not possible at the moment, for reasons that I don't think I need to make any more public than I have already.



Pay no attention, Mark. That was a pretty arrogant post you were responding to which I felt didn't even deserve an answer. As far as what percent support or don't support the niqab in a citizenship ceremony, who cares! It doesn't matter. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms already covers issues such as these and what a majority or minority of citizens think does not override the constitution. Harper is blatantly using racism, just like his counterpart Donald Trump is the U.S. to deflect attention away from his own troubles, the biggest of which is the economy. Whatever Harper has done and continues to do is not working, and he is on his way to losing his job, even if he wins a minority government. Harper's days are numbered, and just like Jim Prentice, he refuses to look in the mirror for the source of his problems. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> Pay no attention, Mark. That was a pretty arrogant post you were responding to which I felt didn't even deserve an answer. As far as what percent support or don't support the niqab in a citizenship ceremony, who cares! It doesn't matter. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms already covers issues such as these and what a majority or minority of citizens think does not override the constitution. Harper is blatantly using racism, just like his counterpart Donald Trump is the U.S. to deflect attention away from his own troubles, the biggest of which is the economy. Whatever Harper has done and continues to do is not working, and he is on his way to losing his job, even if he wins a minority government. Harper's days are numbered, and just like Jim Prentice, he refuses to look in the mirror for the source of his problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The current flap over the overwhelmingly important issue of the face vail appealed to the courts and found illegal was a pronouncement by Jason Kenney. 

A Minister spouting off, it is not a law, it is one man...well maybe two men being $#¡†disturbers. I shall be interested if the Supreme Court even gives leave to hear the Government's appeal.


----------



## Macfury

Nanos poll: NDP slips to 3rd place nationally in wake of French debate | Election 2015

The Nanos poll today shows the NDP in freefall following the French debate.



> 32.5 per cent picked the Liberals as their top choice
> 31.5 per cent chose the Conservatives
> 27.6 per cent chose the NDP


Unless the Liberal gain represents a solid geographic movment, 308 should have the CPC well on top.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Nanos poll: NDP slips to 3rd place nationally in wake of French debate | Election 2015
> 
> 
> 
> The Nanos poll today shows the NDP in freefall following the French debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless the Liberal gain represents a solid geographic movment, 308 should have the CPC well on top.



But on top of what? 308 shows the CPC clearly in minority government territory. If the CPC loses the election, Harper will be gone. If the CPC wins the election with a minority gov't, Harper will be gone. The likelihood of the CPC winning another majority gov't is nearly impossible given this three way race. Bottom line? Harper will be gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeXL

So, the Liberals have finally released their fiscal plan for Canada, with, no surprise here, Justin _in absentia_. And, to top it off, they've restricted media access for 3 days. Curious, idn't it?

Let's have a look.

Breaking down the Liberal fiscal framework



> After Four Years of Trudeau (2016-2020)
> 
> ...
> 
> New spending, tax cuts and benefits:
> $146.5-billion
> 
> Includes:
> 
> * New Canada Child Benefit plan: $89.5 billion
> * Middle class tax cut: $11.8 billion
> * Boost to GIS for single seniors: $3.1 billion
> * Increase infrastructure spending: $17 billion
> * Enchanced EI system: $6.9 billion
> * Jobs and Training: $3.5 billion
> * Parks and clean-tech support: $1.7 billion
> * Arts and culture: $1.3 billion
> * Aboriginal education and infrastructure: $1.6 billion
> * Veterans programs and benefits: $1.26 billion
> * Immigration: $357 million
> * Measures not yet announced: $7.5 billion
> 
> Budget balance:
> *$26.1 billion added to national debt*
> 
> Federal debt-to-GDP ratio:
> *27% vs Conservative plan in Budget 2015 of 25.5%*


M'bold.

Nice. No wonder they put a moratorium on the press.

Keep talking, Justin. Just a few weeks left...


----------



## FeXL

Someone once said (paraphrasing), when your enemy is busy infighting, don't interrupt.

David Suzuki says Trudeau called his views on climate change ‘sanctimonious crap’ in heated phone call



> A heated phone call with Justin Trudeau led to David Suzuki calling the Liberal leader a “twerp” and Trudeau labelling environmentalist’s views as “sanctimonious crap,” Suzuki said Friday.


"Twerp", huh? Rather like that. 

Frankly, got no truck with either's description of the other...


----------



## FeXL

Besides Angry Tom & Justin, anybody else have any issues with revoking citizenship for the worst of Canada's worst?

Canada revokes citizenship of Toronto 18 ringleader using new anti-terror law



> The government used its new power to revoke the citizenship of convicted terrorists for the first time on Friday against the imprisoned ringleader of the 2006 al-Qaida-inspired plot to detonate truck bombs in downtown Toronto.
> 
> Zakaria Amara was notified in a letter sent to the Quebec penitentiary where is he serving a life sentence that he is no longer a Canadian. He still holds citizenship in Jordan and could be deported there following his release from prison.


Further:



> NDP leader Tom Mulcair has said he would scrap the citizenship revocation law, and on Friday Liberal leader Justin Trudeau repeated his pledge to repeal it.


I certainly don't.

Maybe all Amara needs is a hug. From the heart...


----------



## FeXL

What's this? Yet another Liberal scandal?  Who knew?

Criminal charges laid in connection with Sudbury byelection scandal



> Ontario's governing Liberals were rocked Thursday when police laid criminal charges against a veteran party fundraiser in connection with bribery allegations in a Sudbury byelection last February.
> 
> The Opposition immediately demanded Kathleen Wynne step down, saying "this case strikes right at the heart of the premier's office."


----------



## FeXL

By all means, let them all in.

Criminals, ISIL sympathizers and pretenders ditch identities to enter Europe posing as Syrian refugees



> *“What we see here has nothing to do with seeking refuge and safety,” Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner said Monday. “It is nothing but opportunism.”*
> 
> Many of the asylum seekers tell journalists and aid workers they are from Syria, even if they are not, under the assumption that a Syrian shoemaker fleeing bombed out Aleppo will be welcome, while a computer programmer from Kosovo will not be.
> 
> It is common knowledge on the migratory route that some who are not from Syria shred their real passports in Turkey and simply fake it.


M'bold.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Besides Angry Tom & Justin, anybody else have any issues with revoking citizenship for the worst of Canada's worst?
> 
> Canada revokes citizenship of Toronto 18 ringleader using new anti-terror law
> 
> 
> 
> Further:
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly don't.


Everybody believes the Toronto 18 should remain in prison for a very long time. 

Making up $#¡T and spreading division where none exist is typical of conservatives. Going for the faint hope clause of distraction might be a golden oldy, in your mind, but people are fixed on the Conservative's record on the economy, poor judgement in the selection of appointees and corruption in Conservative ranks.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Nanos poll: NDP slips to 3rd place nationally in wake of French debate | Election 2015
> 
> The Nanos poll today shows the NDP in freefall following the French debate.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless the Liberal gain represents a solid geographic movment, 308 should have the CPC well on top.


Harper has given his allies the Bloc Separatist, a boost, I am not pleased by the sudden rise of separatist sentiment in Quebec fostered by Harper's politics of division and fear.


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of distracting from the issue, nobody said anything about prison. The post was entirely about rescinding citizenship. 

If you have an opinion on that, please, I'd be happy to hear it.



BigDL said:


> Everybody believes the Toronto 18 should remain in prison for a very long time.


----------



## FeXL

Reality check: The divisiveness was not spawned by Harper. The majority of Canadians support his stance. How can that be considered divisive? After all, it's considered the "consensus".

For reference I suggest you research "Angry Tom" & "Justin" and their stance on face coverings...



BigDL said:


> Harper has given his allies the Bloc Separatist, a boost, I am not pleased by the sudden rise of separatist sentiment in Quebec fostered by Harper's politics of division and fear.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Harper has given his allies the Bloc Separatist, a boost, I am not pleased by the sudden rise of separatist sentiment in Quebec fostered by Harper's politics of division and fear.


The NDP has become the go-to party of Quebec separation. Only Mulcair's unpopular niqab stance is causing separatists to go elsewhere.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Reality check: The divisiveness was not spawned by Harper. The majority of Canadians support his stance. How can that be considered divisive? After all, it's considered the "consensus".
> 
> For reference I suggest you research "Angry Tom" & "Justin" and their stance on face coverings...


Being in favour of Quebec's Separatists like Harper's politics of sowing division and fear is nothing to be proud of.


----------



## FeXL

It's not a matter of pride nor disgrace. And, it's not a matter of only "Quebec Separatists" supporting the issue. It's a national issue & the large majority of Canadians country-wide feel the same way. Even Nova Scotians. This crosses religious, sexual, political, educational & economic boundaries. Deal with it...



BigDL said:


> Being in favour of Quebec's Separatists like Harper's politics of sowing division and fear is nothing to be proud of.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> It's not a matter of pride nor disgrace. And, it's not a matter of only "Quebec Separatists" supporting the issue. It's a national issue & the large majority of Canadians country-wide feel the same way. Even Nova Scotians. This crosses religious, sexual, political, educational & economic boundaries. Deal with it...


"Look...shiny ball" is all you have when your Conservatives are in trouble. Is this the Conservative's biggest issue to sort out? Have at 'er but you can not deny the MISPLAYS, the MISMANAGEMENT and MALFEASANCE of this Conservative Government.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> It's not a matter of pride nor disgrace. This crosses religious, sexual, political, educational & economic boundaries. Deal with it...


Actually its no BigDL if you consider the source, FeXL.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Actually its no BigDL if you consider the source, FeXL.


Well SINC, my friend good for you, I, should think a fellow like yourself would not be proud of Harper sinking to such depths as to bolster the Separatists.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Well SINC, my friend good for you, I, should think a fellow like yourself would not be proud of Harper sinking to such depths as to bolster the Separatists.


Harper isn't bolstering the separatists. Mulcair is losing some of his separatist flock to the Bloc. If he preached a stronger separatist message, they would return. Blame Jack Layton for taking the party so heavily in that direction.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Everybody believes the Toronto 18 should remain in prison for a very long time.
> 
> 
> 
> Making up $#¡T and spreading division where none exist is typical of conservatives. Going for the faint hope clause of distraction might be a golden oldy, in your mind, but people are fixed on the Conservative's record on the economy, poor judgement in the selection of appointees and corruption in Conservative ranks.



Yup. Harper focuses on "terrorism" because he believes there's enough paranoia out there for people to buy into the fear and disregard his record on other matters. The niqab matter, for example, affects exactly one Canadian at moment, one who would like to be able to vote on October 19, mind you.


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## Macfury

I haven't heard much talk of terrorism at all and Harper's record is solid.

I think you may be in a sour mood because thing aren't going your way.



fjnmusic said:


> Yup. Harper focuses on "terrorism" because he believes there's enough paranoia out there for people to buy into the fear and disregard his record on other matters. The niqab matter, for example, affects exactly one Canadian at moment, one who would like to be able to vote on October 19, mind you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I haven't heard much talk of terrorism at all and Harper's record is solid.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may be in a sour mood because thing aren't going your way.



Harper's record is deficit after deficit, with a one-off surplus this year created by fudging the numbers. If you haven't heard much talk of terrorism, you just haven't been paying attention. Apparently the CPC is the only party that cares about the security of Canada, hence all the talk about niqabs, screening refugees from Syria, the continuing war in Iraq and Syria. You are willfully blind, my friend, and your buddy Harper is not doing nearly as well as you seem to think he is, using your own 308 statistics. But making a good point here is like trying to convince pre-schoolers that nap time is actually good for them.


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## FeXL

I'm speaking of one issue out of many, one which is slanted strongly in a single direction. Curiously, it's this one single issue which has caused Mulcair the most harm in the polls. As I noted, he painted himself into a corner on this issue & it is now his hill to die on.

If you have other issues you'd actually like to discuss, please, feel free. 

List them, tell us where Harper is on them, tell us where you are on them, tell us where the other leaders are on them, something, anything. Let's actually have a discussion. You threw out 3 blanketing, generalized M's that say nothing. How about specifics?

Hollering "shiny ball" from the sidelines is not a discussion: It's a cop out. We both know it. Perhaps the issue isn't important to you. Fine. It is to others, myself included.

In addition, there is no clear winner here. As far as I'm concerned, all three major partys are in trouble if all they can garner is 30% (or less) of the vote.



BigDL said:


> "Look...shiny ball" is all you have when your Conservatives are in trouble.


----------



## FeXL

How do you know she wants to vote? Is there a record somewhere of her stating that?



fjnmusic said:


> The niqab matter, for example, affects exactly one Canadian at moment, one who would like to be able to vote on October 19, mind you.


----------



## FeXL

How many Liberal Prime Ministers have posted surplus budgets over a recession? Names & numbers, please.



fjnmusic said:


> Harper's record is deficit after deficit,


What evidence do you have to support your conjecture? Numbers, please.



fjnmusic said:


> with a one-off surplus this year created by fudging the numbers.


If you are going to make an argument like that, you need to be able to defend your position. If you can't furnish anything to support your accusations, please take your comments elsewhere. I hear there's a lonely drummer boy on another forum who is used to exactly that sort of discussion. Maybe you could even become friends, slap each other on the back for showin' them conservatives, yuk it up a little...


----------



## FeXL

Apparently they are. And, if you don't see the potential threat, there is nothing I can do to help you.



fjnmusic said:


> Apparently the CPC is the only party that cares about the security of Canada, hence all the talk about niqabs, screening refugees from Syria, the continuing war in Iraq and Syria.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> I'm speaking of one issue out of many, one which is slanted strongly in a single direction. Curiously, it's this one single issue which has caused Mulcair the most harm in the polls. As I noted, he painted himself into a corner on this issue & it is now his hill to die on.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have other issues you'd actually like to discuss, please, feel free.
> 
> 
> 
> List them, tell us where Harper is on them, tell us where you are on them, tell us where the other leaders are on them, something, anything. Let's actually have a discussion. You threw out 3 blanketing, generalized M's that say nothing. How about specifics?
> 
> 
> 
> Hollering "shiny ball" from the sidelines is not a discussion: It's a cop out. We both know it. Perhaps the issue isn't important to you. Fine. It is to others, myself included.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition, there is no clear winner here. As far as I'm concerned, all three major partys are in trouble if all they can garner is 30% (or less) of the vote.



On this last point I am in 100% agreement. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> How many Liberal Prime Ministers have posted surplus budgets over a recession? Names & numbers, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have to support your conjecture? Numbers, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to make an argument like that, you need to be able to defend your position. If you can't furnish anything to support your accusations, please take your comments elsewhere. I hear there's a lonely drummer boy on another forum who is used to exactly that sort of discussion. Maybe you could even become friends, slap each other on the back for showin' them conservatives, yuk it up a little...



Easy FeXL. You don't own the forum. One should refrain from being an asshole on such matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> How do you know she wants to vote? Is there a record somewhere of her stating that?



Yes there is. That's why to her it is such a big deal. You should really listen to the radio sometimes. If you don't pay attention, then I can't help you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Asking someone to back up their conjectures is being an asshole?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Asking someone to back up their conjectures is being an asshole?



Saying take your opinions elsewhere on a forum you do not own is being an asshole.


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## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Saying take your opinions elsewhere on a forum you do not own is being an asshole.


He said "please."


----------



## FeXL

Yep. Just like the little drummer boy. Guess someone had to fill the void...



fjnmusic said:


> Easy FeXL. You don't own the forum. One should refrain from being an asshole on such matters.


----------



## FeXL

I do, all the time. Classic Vinyl on satellite when I'm mobile & LP Classic Rock when I'm glued to this chair.

No religion, sex or politics on either of them...



fjnmusic said:


> You should really listen to the radio sometimes.


----------



## FeXL

And what do you call someone who spreads bull$hit all over ehMac & doesn't back it up? Besides fjnmusic, that is...

Look, you've got a choice: defend your position & earn some credibility or don't, thereby wasting everyone's time & coming across as just another lefty sycophant spouting garbage. Either way, I don't care. You gotta live with your reputation, not me...

You guys complain that no one wants to talk about the issues, no one wants to debate the subject, yet, when the time comes to fish or cut bait, where's your argument? Talking points & cartoons? Please...



fjnmusic said:


> Saying take your opinions elsewhere on a forum you do not own is being an asshole.


----------



## Macfury

Don't forget memes...



FeXL said:


> ...yet, when the time comes to fish or cut bait, where's your argument? Talking points & cartoons? Please...


----------



## rgray




----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> I'm speaking of one issue out of many, one which is slanted strongly in a single direction. Curiously, it's this one single issue which has caused Mulcair the most harm in the polls. As I noted, he painted himself into a corner on this issue & it is now his hill to die on.
> 
> If you have other issues you'd actually like to discuss, please, feel free.
> 
> List them, tell us where Harper is on them, tell us where you are on them, tell us where the other leaders are on them, something, anything. Let's actually have a discussion. You threw out 3 blanketing, generalized M's that say nothing. How about specifics?
> 
> Hollering "shiny ball" from the sidelines is not a discussion: It's a cop out. We both know it. Perhaps the issue isn't important to you. Fine. It is to others, myself included.
> 
> In addition, there is no clear winner here. As far as I'm concerned, all three major partys are in trouble if all they can garner is 30% (or less) of the vote.


The democracy in Canada and the people of Canada are in great shape if, citizens engage and come out vote in droves, for three Parties nationally and that each should receive 30% of the vote. I think we'll be in great shape along with 30%, 30%, 30% if Elizabeth May is returned to the Parliament as well.


----------



## Macfury

Good news! Nanos rolling poll shows support for the Conservatives stands at 33.0%, with the Liberals at 31.6%, and the NDP at 26.9%. 308 has been slow to translate this into seats, however--it is now three polls behind.

More Nanos:



> Asked who they would prefer as PM Harper was first at 31.4% of Canadians followed by Trudeau at 27.8%, *Mulcair at 23.0% (his lowest level since the nightly tracking started*).


----------



## FeXL

The unfortunate truth is none of the leaders nor the partys themselves extend beyond the milquetoast level of inspiration. It's like voting for the best plate of wet noodles. Difficult to get droves of people out, bearing that in mind.



BigDL said:


> The democracy in Canada and the people of Canada are in great shape *if, citizens engage and come out vote in droves*...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The unfortunate truth is none of the leaders nor the partys themselves extend beyond the milquetoast level of inspiration. It's like voting for the best plate of wet noodles. Difficult to get droves of people out, bearing that in mind.


As I keep telling the CPC folks who call--you can count on my vote, but not my cash. I will only donate if you save me more than I am donating by cutting spending. Harper is the best of the three by far, but not a pistol.


----------



## Macfury

Justin Trudeau: "Terrorists should get to keep their Canadian citizenship."

https://soundcloud.com/tarek-fatah/...should-get-to-keep-their-canadian-citizenship

An interesting viewpoint that will not wear well across Canada.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Justin Trudeau: "Terrorists should get to keep their Canadian citizenship."
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/tarek-fatah/...should-get-to-keep-their-canadian-citizenship
> 
> An interesting viewpoint that will not wear well across Canada.


Well, that confirms for me that he is not only not ready, he is an idiot as well.


----------



## bse5150

SINC said:


> Well, that confirms for me that he is not only not ready,* he is an idiot as well.*


lol


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Well, that confirms for me that he is not only not ready, he is an idiot as well.


When will he be ready, do you think? I don't believe such ability comes to one late in life...


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> When will he be ready, do you think? I don't believe such ability comes to one late in life...


On that point, I am not sure. One thing I do know though, once an idiot, always an idiot.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> As you say, that's your _opinion_. I would love to see the poll question given to Canadians on the issue. No doubt something like "should women who wear a niqab or burka have to show their face when taking the oath of citizenship". That would probably garner strong affirmative answers. But if it were fleshed out to represent what is actually the case, that a covered woman before taking the oath would first have to verify her identity to a female federal officer before entering the oathtaking ceremony, I believe the answers would be more nuanced.
> 
> What the hell does that have to do with anything? Have you jumped on the Harper bandwagon, that since I have lived outside of Canada for more than five years, my rights as a Canadian are fair play to be stripped away? Nice. tptptptp
> 
> You're making a lot of assumptions about me and my situation. If it were at all possible, we would be on an airplane tomorrow, heading North. But it's not possible at the moment, for reasons that I don't think I need to make any more public than I have already.


There was a poll conducted and 70% of Canadians believe that you should show your face when taking the oath of citizenship.

The five year rule is not not new and was upheld by the Federal Court so if you want to blame anyone blame them.


----------



## Vandave

screature said:


> There was a poll conducted and 70% of Canadians believe that you should show your face when taking the oath of citizenship.
> 
> The five year rule is not not new and was upheld by the Federal Court so if you want to blame anyone blame them.


I bet if I wore a bag over my head in the courtroom, the judge would make me remove it.

We have a problem with judicial activism in this country.


----------



## Macfury

Your bag is not religious enough.



Vandave said:


> I bet if I wore a bag over my head in the courtroom, the judge would make me remove it.
> 
> We have a problem with judicial activism in this country.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> The unfortunate truth is none of the leaders nor the partys themselves extend beyond the milquetoast level of inspiration. It's like voting for the best plate of wet noodles. Difficult to get droves of people out, bearing that in mind.



Again, we agree. Must be a full moon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Justin Trudeau: "Terrorists should get to keep their Canadian citizenship."
> 
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/tarek-fatah/...should-get-to-keep-their-canadian-citizenship
> 
> 
> 
> An interesting viewpoint that will not wear well across Canada.



Think about it for a moment. Perhaps a terrorist or born and raised in Canada. He or she has no other citizenship. If you strip them of their citizenship, then where exactly would they be extradited to? What country then takes them as a citizen? Everyone, good or bad, comes from somewhere. You can't change someone's country of origin. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeXL

I stand to be corrected but I believe I read somewhere that he still has Jordanian ctitizenship.



fjnmusic said:


> You can't change someone's country of origin.


----------



## FeXL

Vandave said:


> I bet if I wore a bag over my head in the courtroom, the judge would make me remove it.


Can you imagine the reaction if you walked into a bank with a balaclava on? Silent alarms would be triggered all over the place.

Just today I passed through Canadian Customs from Montana in our car. Before I had a chance to remove them, the Customs officer asked me to remove my sunglasses so he "could make sure I was who I claimed to be". Whenever I go through Customs on my motorcycle (either way), if I have my helmet on, I'm asked to remove it so they can see my face.


----------



## FeXL

Further.

Why we agree with niqab ban 



> If Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and Green Party Leader Elizabeth May want to be honest, they should stop criticizing Prime Minister Stephen Harper on this issue and turn their guns on voters, whose support they are seeking.
> 
> When they do, they will discover the vast majority of Canadians support the prime minister on this issue.
> 
> *The CBC’s Vote Compass survey last week found 72% of Canadians of all political stripes agreed that immigrants should not cover their faces during citizenship ceremonies.*


M'bold.

More:



> *An Ipsos poll earlier this year found 88% of Canadians supported the requirement that people show their faces during citizenship ceremonies, while 72% agreed with Harper that the niqab is a symbol of the oppression of women.*


This is definitely an election issue & Mulcair & Justin are on the wrong side of public opinion. Keep talking, boyz...


----------



## Macfury

It's only for people who come from somewhere else. However, I don't think it's an important enough issue to make a special rule for. Justin Trudeau, on the other hand, appears to want to state his ideas in the worst way possible.



fjnmusic said:


> Think about it for a moment. Perhaps a terrorist or born and raised in Canada. He or she has no other citizenship. If you strip them of their citizenship, then where exactly would they be extradited to? What country then takes them as a citizen? Everyone, good or bad, comes from somewhere. You can't change someone's country of origin.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Think about it for a moment.


Perhaps take your own advice and realize it does not apply to anyone who is a born here (Canadian) citizen. You must be a dual citizen to be affected.


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

These Liberal candidates are dropping like flies:

Liberal candidate quits after referring to 9/11 ‘lie’ on Facebook | Globalnews.ca


----------



## heavyall

I don't recall an election where so many candidates have dropped out (for all three parties).

Something I should know, but if I did learn it, I've clearly forgotten:

Can the parties replace a candidate once the campaign is underway? Also, what do they do about advance votes for that dropped candidate?


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> I don't recall an election where so many candidates have dropped out (for all three parties).


Would it be a stretch to attribute this phenomenon to the increasing number of candidates with social media accounts - the kind that are publicly searchable and can come back to bite them in the ass?


----------



## MacGuiver

Social media certainly could play a part Mark.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Would it be a stretch to attribute this phenomenon to the increasing number of candidates with social media accounts - the kind that are publicly searchable and can come back to bite them in the ass?


Yes!

I handle all social media identifying me as though someone is looking back at it five years from now.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> These Liberal candidates are dropping like flies:
> 
> Liberal candidate quits after referring to 9/11 ‘lie’ on Facebook | Globalnews.ca


Clearly telling the truth cannot and will not to be tolerated from any political candidate. Her punishment is fully deserved.

The officially sanctioned conspiracy theory is so full of holes that only a true politician would even pretend to believe the myth.


----------



## Macfury

Here we go again. 



eMacMan said:


> Clearly telling the truth cannot and will not to be tolerated from any political candidate. Her punishment is fully deserved.
> 
> The officially sanctioned conspiracy theory is so full of holes that only a true politician would even pretend to believe the myth.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tractors, cows take over Ottawa, Parliament Hill in as dairy farmers protest TPP*



Dairy farmers from eastern Ontario took their tractors and cattle to Parliament Hill to protest possible dairy concessions in the soon-to-be-signed Trans-Pacific Partnership.

The farmers rolled down a busy Bank Street in downtown Ottawa on Tuesday, one day before trade ministers from 12 Pacific Rim member countries were set to meet in Atlanta to discuss the TPP.

They also brought cattle.

You can read background on the story here.​
(CBC)


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> I don't recall an election where so many candidates have dropped out (for all three parties).
> 
> Something I should know, but if I did learn it, I've clearly forgotten:
> 
> Can the parties replace a candidate once the campaign is underway? Also, what do they do about advance votes for that dropped candidate?


I happened to have an exchange with our incumbent MP, Brent Rathgeber this morning and asked him this:

"When a candidate resigns during a federal campaign, be it over a social media faux pas or whatever, can the party he or she represented appoint a new candidate in that riding, or does the party lose its presence on the ballot for this election?"

He answered: 

*Hi Don:

"After Nomination day, which I believe was yesterday, no new candidates can be nominated. But if a candidate is unendorsed prior to Nomination Day, a new candidate can be nominated."

Best,

B.*


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Think about it for a moment. Perhaps a terrorist or born and raised in Canada. He or she has no other citizenship. If you strip them of their citizenship, then where exactly would they be extradited to? What country then takes them as a citizen? Everyone, good or bad, comes from somewhere. You can't change someone's country of origin.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That cannot happen under current law. Do some research before you post.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I don't recall an election where so many candidates have dropped out (for all three parties).
> 
> Something I should know, but if I did learn it, I've clearly forgotten:
> 
> *Can the parties replace a candidate once the campaign is underway? Also, what do they do about advance votes for that dropped candidate?*


Yes they can it is legal.

If a candidate drops out the riding association can vote in another candidate tout suite. Remember it is not the candidate that pays for his or her candidacy it is the riding association and the dollars that they have raised.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Would it be a stretch to attribute this phenomenon to the increasing number of candidates with social media accounts - the kind that are publicly searchable and can come back to bite them in the ass?


Yes definitely.


----------



## Macfury

I would drive a tractor to Ottawa myself if it meant the end of supply management (_aka _"price fixing").



CubaMark said:


> *Tractors, cows take over Ottawa, Parliament Hill in as dairy farmers protest TPP*
> 
> 
> 
> Dairy farmers from eastern Ontario took their tractors and cattle to Parliament Hill to protest possible dairy concessions in the soon-to-be-signed Trans-Pacific Partnership.
> 
> The farmers rolled down a busy Bank Street in downtown Ottawa on Tuesday, one day before trade ministers from 12 Pacific Rim member countries were set to meet in Atlanta to discuss the TPP.
> 
> They also brought cattle.
> 
> You can read background on the story here.​
> (CBC)


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Tractors, cows take over Ottawa, Parliament Hill in as dairy farmers protest TPP*
> 
> 
> 
> Dairy farmers from eastern Ontario took their tractors and cattle to Parliament Hill to protest possible dairy concessions in the soon-to-be-signed Trans-Pacific Partnership.
> 
> The farmers rolled down a busy Bank Street in downtown Ottawa on Tuesday, one day before trade ministers from 12 Pacific Rim member countries were set to meet in Atlanta to discuss the TPP.
> 
> They also brought cattle.
> 
> You can read background on the story here.​
> (CBC)


Yes it happened (I witnessed it first hand due to where I work) but the reason why it happened is pure FUD. Everything that brought this protest into being is pure FUD. *The negotiations are not finished.* Capiche Dairy Farmers et. al.! 

Sure express your descent without even knowing how it may actually benefit or negatively affect you, you have that right. But do not try and portray it as a done deal as so many on the left have been doing for so long now. Because they are spreading *Pure FUD* based on politics and not economics.


----------



## fjnmusic

Here's a thought for you: when was the last time we had a prime minister that didn't have blue eyes?


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----------



## FeXL

Oh, I do love it when he puts both feet and his elbow in his mouth. Where's that rubbing-your-hands-together emoticon when you need it?

Michael Den Tandt: Flawed Liberal foreign policy hampers strong Trudeau performance in leaders’ debate

Justin:



> “And I’ll give you the quote so that you guys can jot it down and put it in an attack ad somewhere that the Liberal party believes that terrorists should get to keep their Canadian citizenship. Because I do. And I’m willing to take on anyone who disagrees with that.”


Tell ya what, my friend. Why don't you swing by southern Alberta, we'll have a little conversation about that...

Keep talking, Justin...


----------



## FeXL

NDP vows not to cut jobs for federal public servants in Ottawa election battleground



> The NDP will release its plans Tuesday to *build a “stronger” federal bureaucracy*, including the promise of no further spending reviews or job cuts for Canada’s public servants.


M'bold.

Read: bigger.



> Both parties promise to *restore respect for public servants...*


Funny, I always thought respect was earned.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

*An interesting fact...*

An interesting fact...

CPAC 



> Created by Cable for Canadians
> 
> CPAC, the Cable Public Affairs Channel, is Canada’s only privately-owned, commercial free, not for profit, bilingual licensed television service. Created in 1992 by a consortium of cable companies to preserve an independent editorial voice for Canada’s democratic process, CPAC provides a window on Parliament, politics and public affairs in Canada and around the world. Since 1992, the cable industry has invested more than $50 million in CPAC, and today CPAC programming is delivered by cable, satellite and wireless distributors to over 11 million homes in Canada and worldwide via 24/7 webcasting available on this website.


has broadcast every single on of the leaders debates.

Guess how many of the debates our publicly funded CBC has broadcast? 

The answer is none.

Things that make you say/wonder hmmm....?


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of the little darlings...

CBC announces plans to sell off all buildings in midst of election campaign 



> CBC announced today at a town hall for staff that it is selling all its property across the country, including major production facilities in Montreal and Toronto. *These buildings were paid for by Canadians*...


M'bold.

Good. I expect my cheque will be in the mail soon...


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Here's a thought for you: when was the last time we had a prime minister that didn't have blue eyes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What the f**k is your point????!!!! Do you really think that eye colour has anything to do with who gets to be PM???? Remember we don't even vote for a PM!!! We vote for members of Parliament.

Are you suggesting that we are an Aryan nation that adheres to those ideals!!!???

That is seriously f**ked up man.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Speaking of the little darlings...
> 
> CBC announces plans to sell off all buildings in midst of election campaign
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Good. I expect my cheque will be in the mail soon...


The truth of the matter is this...

The CBC has decided to sell their buildings and lease them becuase it will be cost effective. They will continue operations in those same or comparable buildings. Straight from the moth of CBC President Hubert T. Lacroix.

Despite the false information being spread by broadcasting unionists.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> What the f**k is your point????!!!! Do you really think that eye colour has anything to do with who gets to be PM???? Remember we don't even vote for a PM!!! We vote for members of Parliament.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting that we are an Aryan nation that adheres to those ideals!!!???
> 
> 
> 
> That is seriously f**ked up man.



Boy, touched a nerve there. Take your pills, man, it's just a question. I'll make it easy for you. In close to 150 years as a country, I'm told, we have not had a brown-eyed prime minister. Wilfred Laurier, the guy on the blue five dollar bill, apparently has hazel eyes. Pretty sustained coincidence, it would appear. Puts Mulcair at a serious disadvantage if Canadians seem to prefer blue-eyed Prime Ministers.

And don't kid yourself on the way people vote. People can vote using any criteria they wish. On paper we vote for our local representative, but in practice, I'd say most people either vote the party or the leader they like the best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Just to add...

National Post View: The CBC should be selling its buildings



> Last Tuesday the Canadian Media Guild (CMG), undoubtedly hoping to create an election issue, announced that CBC managers had told a town hall for employees that the corporation “is selling all its property across the country.” It remains unclear whether this is actually what the CBC brass said (the CMG press release was a little short on documentation). The corporation has had plans in the works for years to sell much of its real estate, and it has always said that no particular piece of property, including showpiece downtown offices and studios, was to be held sacred. But it has never said it was selling “all” of it.
> 
> It is not just a question of it being broadly reasonable for media companies to respond to a more lightweight world by cutting overhead. It would be insane for them not to
> 
> It seems unlikely that it would announce some earth-shaking change in policy under the caretaker conditions of an election. The CMG, rather, would appear to be trying to draw attention to the slow-motion semi-crisis at the CBC, after years of big Liberal budget cuts and modest Conservative ones. At that, it provided the parties with an opportunity to remind voters of where they stand on the issue. The Liberals say they would add $150 million to the corporation’s ledger, which would more or less undo Conservative cuts, while leaving the earlier Liberal ones intact. The NDP would put $115 million back into the operating budget, and would block any sales of infrastructure.
> 
> Our business cards have “National Post” on them, which may suggest that our fundamental beliefs on CBC infrastructure involve drones and Raytheon MIM-23 Hawk missiles. But perhaps we can set the larger question of the corporation’s role in a post-broadcasting age aside long enough to point out that unionized CBC employees and loyal CBC consumers do not share the same interests when it comes to the future of the corporation. To the degree that the CBC is in the real estate business, it is not doing the business it is designed to do.
> 
> Creating broadcast content takes up a lot less office space than it used to. As it happens, this is also true of creating newspaper content. A reporter no longer needs a huge filing cabinet or room for a traditional phone or computer tower. A lot of us, frankly, could work from bed (no doubt some occasionally do). The space savings made possible in the last 10 to 20 years are unquestionably even greater for a radio producer or a television editor; for behind-the-scenes creatives, a whole world of apparatus may have shrunk down to a laptop.
> 
> So it is not just a question of it being broadly reasonable for media companies to respond to a more lightweight world by cutting overhead. It would be insane for them not to. The CBC is no different from any other corporation in this regard, or at least no different from any other corporation that faces some finite limit to its expenditure. The opposition parties agree that this limit, in the case of the CBC, should be raised. But no matter whom we elect, we are not going to arrive in a world where no such limit exists.
> 
> No doubt the Canadian Media Guild sees the sale or lease of CBC property as public broadcasting’s version of Margaret Thatcher closing the coal mines. That monetizing CBC real estate might make more funds available for the compensation of creative personnel in the short term is, to them, a nugatory consideration.
> 
> The illogic of their position is well captured in a comment by Ian Morrison of the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, who complained that the CBC selling its buildings was like “burning furniture to heat the home.” Surely it is more like — almost exactly like — selling a home that is expensive to heat and maintain, after the kids have moved out, and moving into a smaller one? The kind of thing, in other words, that rational adults do all the time. Nobody is “burning” anything, or proposing to.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Boy, touched a nerve there. Take your pills, man, it's just a question. I'll make it easy for you. In close to 150 years as a country, I'm told, we have not had a brown-eyed prime minister. Wilfred Laurier, the guy on the blue five dollar bill, apparently has hazel eyes. Pretty sustained coincidence, it would appear. Puts Mulcair at a serious disadvantage if Canadians seem to prefer blue-eyed Prime Ministers.
> 
> And don't kid yourself on the way people vote. People can vote using any criteria they wish. On paper we vote for our local representative, but in practice, I'd say most people either vote the party or the leader they like the best.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah right we are a country full of Aryans! 

Talk about FUD!!! You are full of it in so many ways!. I think your brain and body could do well with having an enema followed by a colonoscopy to find out what is wrong with you.

*You* need to take some pills as your argument/observation is preposterous and demeaning to any Canadian that has a brain unaffected by disease or substance abuse.

That you even took the time to type that ridiculous post is astounding to me, *"question"* or not, as if that is a valid defence for making the post. That you posted it in the first place means that you are giving some credence to the possibility of the validity of the of the notion yourself, which is a completely ridiculous postulation in the first place.


----------



## CubaMark

*Bill Casey, N.S. Liberal candidate, alleges government interference in campaign*








The Liberal candidate for Cumberland-Colchester in Nova Scotia says he has filed a complaint with Elections Canada, alleging he was refused entry into a public building during a campaign stop.

Bill Casey made the complaint Tuesday in a letter to Marc Mayrand, the chief electoral officer, accusing the Department of National Defence and the Privy Council Office of conspiring against him.

On Sept. 21, Casey announced on his website he planned to visit the Col. James Layton Ralston Armoury in Amherst at 11 a.m. the next day because the building is in disrepair.

Under law, candidates are allowed to campaign in public areas. The armoury's museum is open Monday to Friday, from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m., or by appointment. The building itself is under federal jurisdiction.

Casey said he tried to enter the building, but armoury staff told him he wasn't allowed as he was in contravention of the Canada Elections Act. A staff member said he was "operating from instructions from CFB Halifax," according to Casey. 

"And then when I didn't leave, I was summoned to the phone at the armoury and I was told by a CFB Halifax official that I had to leave the premises immediately," Casey said in an interview.

The next day, Casey said, he spoke with CFB Halifax public affairs officer Mike Bonin, who told him he was refused entry not because of the Elections Act, but because of directives given to CFB Halifax by the Privy Council Office in Ottawa. 

* * *​
In an email to CBC News, Privy Council spokesman Raymond Rivet wrote that "there was no direction from PCO regarding access to the Amherst Armoury."

According to the Section 81.1(1) of the Canada Elections Act, "No person who is in control of a building, land, street or any other place, any part of which is open without charge to members of the public … may prevent a candidate or his or her representative from campaigning in or on that part when it is open without charge to members of the public."

* * *​
Casey is the former Tory MP for the area who was expelled from the Conservative Party eight years ago after voting against the 2007 budget.​
(CBC)


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Yeah right we are a country full of Aryans!
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about FUD!!! You are full of it in so many ways!. I think your brain and body could do well with having an enema followed by a colonoscopy to find out what is wrong with you.
> 
> 
> 
> *You* need to take some pills as your argument/observation is preposterous and demeaning to any Canadian that has a brain unaffected by disease or substance abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> That you even took the time to type that ridiculous post is astounding to me, *"question"* or not, as if that is a valid defence for making the post. That you posted it in the first place means that you are giving some credence to the possibility of the validity of the of the notion yourself, which is a completely ridiculous postulation in the first place.



You're the one saying Aryan nation, not me, pal. So tell me, when was the last time in Canada that we didn't have a blue-eyed prime minister?


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> You're the one saying Aryan nation, not me, pal. So tell me, when was the last time in Canada that we didn't have a blue-eyed prime minister?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your original and subsequent posts and your insinuations disgust me.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Bill Casey, N.S. Liberal candidate, alleges government interference in campaign*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Liberal candidate for Cumberland-Colchester in Nova Scotia says he has filed a complaint with Elections Canada, alleging he was refused entry into a public building during a campaign stop.
> 
> Bill Casey made the complaint Tuesday in a letter to Marc Mayrand, the chief electoral officer, accusing the Department of National Defence and the Privy Council Office of conspiring against him.
> 
> On Sept. 21, Casey announced on his website he planned to visit the Col. James Layton Ralston Armoury in Amherst at 11 a.m. the next day because the building is in disrepair.
> 
> Under law, candidates are allowed to campaign in public areas. The armoury's museum is open Monday to Friday, from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m., or by appointment. The building itself is under federal jurisdiction.
> 
> Casey said he tried to enter the building, but armoury staff told him he wasn't allowed as he was in contravention of the Canada Elections Act. A staff member said he was "operating from instructions from CFB Halifax," according to Casey.
> 
> "And then when I didn't leave, I was summoned to the phone at the armoury and I was told by a CFB Halifax official that I had to leave the premises immediately," Casey said in an interview.
> 
> The next day, Casey said, he spoke with CFB Halifax public affairs officer Mike Bonin, who told him he was refused entry not because of the Elections Act, but because of directives given to CFB Halifax by the Privy Council Office in Ottawa.
> 
> * * *​
> In an email to CBC News, Privy Council spokesman Raymond Rivet wrote that "there was no direction from PCO regarding access to the Amherst Armoury."
> 
> According to the Section 81.1(1) of the Canada Elections Act, "No person who is in control of a building, land, street or any other place, any part of which is open without charge to members of the public … may prevent a candidate or his or her representative from campaigning in or on that part when it is open without charge to members of the public."
> 
> * * *​
> Casey is the former Tory MP for the area who was expelled from the Conservative Party eight years ago after voting against the 2007 budget.​
> (CBC)


I am sure Stephen Harper ordered this.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Your original and subsequent posts and your insinuations disgust me.



I haven't insinuated anything. You have quite the imagination. So why not answer the question: when has Canada ever not had a blue-eyed Prime Minister? It's a hell of a coincidence is all I'm saying. Your lack of ability to even attempt to answer a simple question is puzzling. 


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----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> I haven't insinuated anything. You have quite the imagination. So why not answer the question: when has Canada ever not had a blue-eyed Prime Minister? It's a hell of a coincidence is all I'm saying. Your lack of ability to even attempt to answer a simple question is puzzling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ask a stupid question and what do you expect? No idea how many or few had blue eyes and frankly could not care less. Talk about irrelevant.


----------



## Macfury

I'm not going to investigate the eye colour of the PMs--if you have a point to make, fjn, why not captivate us with the big reveal?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I'm not going to investigate the eye colour of the PMs--if you have a point to make, fjn, why not captivate us with the big reveal?



Thank you for not being upfront insulting like the last two responders, Macfury. I suspect, and I don't think I'm wrong about this, that people respond to facial cues, like face width and eye colour, almost involuntarily in choosing their leader. It's a subtle thing, but I believe it's most definitely there. We tend to go with who we like even we don't agree with all of their policies. It's why the CPC's acknowledged that Justin Trudeau does have a nice head of hair. Irrelevant perhaps, but people are influenced by all kinds of subtle cues.

As I'm watching the three top contenders, it strikes me that there's something I find that I don't quite trust about Mulcair, even more than Harper, if that's possible. And then it hits me. Eye colour. I'm not trying to be racist or eyeist or whatever the hell you'd call it, but every elected Canadian PM in my lifetime that I can remember had blue eyes: Harper, Martin, Chretien, Mulroney, Clark, Trudeau. Odd coincidence. Does that make them more trustworthy? Probably not. Does it make them more electable? You'd have to be a fool to believe that image doesn't count.

But who knows? Someone else had posted in a different forum that this is actually the case for all of Canada's PM's save Laurier, whose eyes were hazel. Now I don't need to be insulted the way I was by the previous two posters; that was just rude. I'm only asking if anyone with more knowledge than me can enlighten me as to the correlation of Canadian prime ministers and eye colour. That is all. Lots of old photos are in black and white and it is not as easy to tell.

P.S. For the record, Rachel Notley has blue eyes and Jim Prentice has brown eyes if that means anything.


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----------



## Macfury

I think it would be interesting to look at the eye colour of the contenders a well as the successful PM. They might have been blue-on-blue matchups.

For the most part, early voters would also have little information on eye colour. They would only see a B&W photo in a newspaper. Colour magazines came later. Colour broadcasts would have been widely viewed beginning in the 1960s. Your theory would probably be best testable from Pearson on.


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## SINC

Latest seat projections . . .


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I think it would be interesting to look at the eye colour of the contenders a well as the successful PM. They might have been blue-on-blue matchups.
> 
> 
> 
> For the most part, early voters would also have little information on eye colour. They would only see a B&W photo in a newspaper. Colour magazines came later. Colour broadcasts would have been widely viewed beginning in the 1960s. Your theory would probably be best testable from Pearson on.



Good points. There must be bios of all the PM's somewhere, if a person had time or interest to do the research. Just a hypothesis at this point....


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----------



## FeXL

If the CBC wants to alienate even more people, go ahead...

CBC hits back at Stephen Harper over funding cuts



> After the CBC’s annual general meeting in Winnipeg, Lacroix said Canada must look to other European countries for ideas on how to fund public broadcasting.
> 
> *He says Germany has a household fee, while France collects revenue from Internet service providers.*


----------



## FeXL

All pomp & no substance? Well, that's a surprise...

Andrew Coyne: A Liberal fiscal plan that’s all for show



> In other words, it’s all for show. The reason they’re running a deficit is not for any practical good it would do the economy: if the Liberals believed that it would be much larger, and all for infrastructure. Rather, they’re running a deficit a) to differentiate themselves from the other parties, and b) so they can promise more in spending than they are obliged to raise in taxes. As political strategies go, you will agree, this may be many things, but new is not one of them.
> 
> How different is it? Roughly speaking, the NDP would raise spending and taxes by about $10 billion annually each. The Liberals would raise spending by $15-billion, and taxes by $5-billion. *A few billion dollars either way, on a $2-trillion economy: that’s the bold departure. By the party’s own reckoning!*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Still don't get the niqab issue?

"I don’t understand why this is an issue!" Media STILL clueless on niqab



> Multiculturalism is supposed to be about celebrating diversity in Canada, about allowing people to keep the cultures of the lands they came from when they come to Canada. _It is not supposed to be about changing Canada into the land they came from._
> 
> Ms Ishaq, like countless immigrants before her, came to Canada for what this country has to offer. She left Pakistan for a reason.
> 
> *Her goal upon arrival should not be to turn Mississauga into Lahore.*
> 
> Canada is an open society and part of that openness, beyond welcoming immigrants, is that we see each other’s faces.


Bold from the link, italics mine.


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> I haven't insinuated anything. You have quite the imagination. So why not answer the question: when has Canada ever not had a blue-eyed Prime Minister? It's a hell of a coincidence is all I'm saying. Your lack of ability to even attempt to answer a simple question is puzzling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amazing how the deflection and deception technique is so ingrained into the con psyche that they cannot give a straight answer to even an incredibly simple question.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Amazing how the deflection and deception technique is so ingrained into the con psyche that they cannot give a straight answer to even an incredibly simple question.



Amen. 😉


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I haven't insinuated anything. You have quite the imagination. So why not answer the question: when has Canada ever not had a blue-eyed Prime Minister? It's a hell of a coincidence is all I'm saying. Your lack of ability to even attempt to answer a simple question is puzzling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You clearly knew the answer to your "*question"* before you posted it so I don't believe for one instant you were not trying to be provocative.

Tom Mulcair has brown eyes. Due to your post I looked it up. Big f**king deal!

Now try and tell me how you were not being provocative, as if eye colour is relevant in any way and even matters in the first place, but you in your own provocative way as you do constantly tried to make a non-issue an "issue". 

Truth be told I had no idea of the eye colour of ANYONE I have I have ever voted for as it is a complete non-issue except for those wearing tin foil hats.

Here are a couple of songs for you from the band *Garbage* that are applicable to the content of you posts.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppiohVRZ0s&list=RD3ppiohVRZ0s#t=26


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> I don't believe for one instance you were not trying to be provocative....
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Mulcair has brown eyes. Big f**king deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Now try and tell me how you were not being provocative, as if eye colour is relevant in any way and even matters in the first place, but you in your own provocative way as you do constantly tried to make a non-issue an "issue".
> 
> 
> 
> Truth be told I had no idea of the eye colour of ANYONE I have I have ever voted for as it is a complete non-issue except for those wearing tin foil hats.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are a couple of songs for you from the band *Garbage* that are applicable to the content of you posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppiohVRZ0s&list=RD3ppiohVRZ0s#t=26



How is it applicable? Right or not, Canadians seem to elect the leaders of political parties who have blue eyes far more often than not, at least for pretty much every prime minister since I've been born. I had just never noticed it before. They also tend to favor PM's who do not have facial hair. That's two strikes against Mulcair, and you would have to be naive to think that image doesn't count. Parties select their leaders in the basis of image, quite apart from policies or record even. Trudeau is the pretty boy candidate here, and recent polls seem to suggest Liberal gains at the expense of the New Democrats.

So yes, on a subconscious or even very conscious level, eye colour does make a difference. Try not to get too emotional about it, because it can make you appear less than kind.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Still don't get the niqab issue?
> 
> "I don’t understand why this is an issue!" Media STILL clueless on niqab
> 
> Bold from the link, italics mine.


What a dismissive, bigoted little ass is Ezra Levant. He rants and raves, but ultimately says nothing. It boils down to nothing more than he wants women to do what he wants them to do, to hell with their personal or cultural beliefs. No matter that the identification of the woman can easily be confirmed prior to the ceremony, that's simply not acceptable to him, because "values" or some damn thing.

I repeat: what an ass.

And those who follow an ass so closely? We have a word for folks like that....


----------



## CubaMark

_Now, back to something that actually matters, y'know, something that has an impact beyond one person in Canada, and yet so few seem to care to discuss it:_

*What’s the big deal? The high stakes of TPP*

Tariffs are already low between TPP countries, and Canada already has free trade agreements with the U.S., Mexico, Chile and Peru. Eighty percent of Canadian exports to the other TPP countries are raw or semi-processed goods (like coal and lumber) while eighty percent of imports are high value-added goods (like cars and computers). If the TPP encourages greater trade, it will serve to exacerbate Canada’s trade deficit with these countries and further weaken our struggling manufacturing sector.

The Canadian government has not published a study of the deal’s potential economic impact, but independent analyses offer grim forecasts. An UNCTAD study predicts a 26% drop in Canada’s value-added exports as a consequence of the TPP. Even optimistic U.S. government forecasts predict no net GDP growth for Canada due to the TPP.

*The Costs*
Canada’s supply-managed agricultural industry is on the chopping block in this deal, which threatens thousands of jobs in addition to our food security. The automotive industry is also at risk with potentially “catastrophic effects” in terms of jobs and exports.

But some of the TPP’s most worrying provisions have almost nothing to do with trade at all. Increased intellectual property protections in the deal will undermine generic pharmaceuticals leading to higher drug costs across the country. Canadians’ privacy is at risk from rules that would allow the unregulated transmission of personal information across borders. And new copyright rules would rewrite Canadian law to allow stricter penalties for infringement and better protect tobacco companies’ branding.

To make matters worse, the TPP includes an investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism, which will allow foreign corporations to sue governments for actions that interfere with their investments. The ISDS mechanism in NAFTA has already forced the Canadian government to backtrack on important environmental and public health regulations.​
(BehindTheNumbers)


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> How is it applicable? Right or not, Canadians seem to elect the leaders of political parties who have blue eyes far more often than not, at least for pretty much every prime minister since I've been born. I had just never noticed it before. They also tend to favor PM's who do not have facial hair. That's two strikes against Mulcair, and you would have to be naive to think that image doesn't count. Parties select their leaders in the basis of image, quite apart from policies or record even. Trudeau is the pretty boy candidate here, and recent polls seem to suggest Liberal gains at the expense of the New Democrats.
> 
> So yes, on a subconscious or even very conscious level, eye colour does make a difference. Try not to get too emotional about it, because it can make you appear less than kind.
> 
> View attachment 61162
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are letting your paranoia take hold of you. Like I said before I never even once considered the eye colour of who I have voted for the in the past largely because it makes no difference and also because I have never noticed eye colour because it is a non-issue for me as it is for the vast majority of Canadians who don't wear tin foil hats.

That you are trying to portray it as an issue speaks volumes about your own personal biases and not those of others. Who the hell thinks about this stuff aside from conspiracy theorists?

Oh and another thing, we don't vote for a Prime Minster in this country we vote for an MP so your whole hypothesis is pure BS from start to finish.


----------



## Vandave

fjn, do you have brown eyes by any chance?


----------



## Macfury

Levant is on the moral side of the issue, no matter how many memes you post.



CubaMark said:


> What a dismissive, bigoted little ass is Ezra Levant. He rants and raves, but ultimately says nothing. It boils down to nothing more than he wants women to do what he wants them to do, to hell with their personal or cultural beliefs. No matter that the identification of the woman can easily be confirmed prior to the ceremony, that's simply not acceptable to him, because "values" or some damn thing.
> 
> I repeat: what an ass.
> 
> And those who follow an ass so closely? We have a word for folks like that....


----------



## Macfury

Of course that's true of our imports and exports. Labour-intensive goods are going to be cheaper than ours if made elsewhere. A few posts ago you were advocating for higher statutory wages--that's going to make our manufacturing sector sing!

Our manufacturing sector is dead anyway due to high energy costs brought on by "progressives" like Kathleen Wynne. Notley will make it better still.

If all TPP does is destroy supply management in Canada, it will be a success.




CubaMark said:


> _Now, back to something that actually matters, y'know, something that has an impact beyond one person in Canada, and yet so few seem to care to discuss it:_
> 
> *What’s the big deal? The high stakes of TPP*
> 
> Tariffs are already low between TPP countries, and Canada already has free trade agreements with the U.S., Mexico, Chile and Peru. Eighty percent of Canadian exports to the other TPP countries are raw or semi-processed goods (like coal and lumber) while eighty percent of imports are high value-added goods (like cars and computers). If the TPP encourages greater trade, it will serve to exacerbate Canada’s trade deficit with these countries and further weaken our struggling manufacturing sector.
> 
> The Canadian government has not published a study of the deal’s potential economic impact, but independent analyses offer grim forecasts. An UNCTAD study predicts a 26% drop in Canada’s value-added exports as a consequence of the TPP. Even optimistic U.S. government forecasts predict no net GDP growth for Canada due to the TPP.
> 
> *The Costs*
> Canada’s supply-managed agricultural industry is on the chopping block in this deal, which threatens thousands of jobs in addition to our food security. The automotive industry is also at risk with potentially “catastrophic effects” in terms of jobs and exports.
> 
> But some of the TPP’s most worrying provisions have almost nothing to do with trade at all. Increased intellectual property protections in the deal will undermine generic pharmaceuticals leading to higher drug costs across the country. Canadians’ privacy is at risk from rules that would allow the unregulated transmission of personal information across borders. And new copyright rules would rewrite Canadian law to allow stricter penalties for infringement and better protect tobacco companies’ branding.
> 
> To make matters worse, the TPP includes an investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism, which will allow foreign corporations to sue governments for actions that interfere with their investments. The ISDS mechanism in NAFTA has already forced the Canadian government to backtrack on important environmental and public health regulations.​
> (BehindTheNumbers)


----------



## rgray




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## rgray




----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> How is it applicable? Right or not, *Canadians seem to elect the leaders of political parties* who have blue eyes far more often than not, at least for pretty much every prime minister since I've been born. I had just never noticed it before. They also tend to favor PM's who do not have facial hair. That's two strikes against Mulcair, and you would have to be naive to think that image doesn't count. Parties select their leaders in the basis of image, quite apart from policies or record even. Trudeau is the pretty boy candidate here, and recent polls seem to suggest Liberal gains at the expense of the New Democrats.
> 
> So yes, on a subconscious or even very conscious level, eye colour does make a difference. Try not to get too emotional about it, because it can make you appear less than kind.
> 
> View attachment 61162
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just don't get it do you? Canadians *DO NOT ELECT* leaders of political parties. Period. End of story.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> You just don't get it do you? Canadians *DO NOT ELECT* leaders of political parties. Period. End of story.



Actually they do. Why do you think so much energy and focus is spent on leader's debates and posters showing the leader's face? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW PEOPLE DECIDE WHICH PARTY THEY ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR. You just don't get it do you? When you mark X on the ballot, you could be choosing to vote for the party, the local candidate, the leader of the party you like best, or you could vote strategically against these things. Who is to say what the motive is behind someone's X on the ballot? 

I can tell you this much: I know a HELL of a lot more about the party leaders than I do about any of the local candidates in my riding, whose names I might recognize on Election Day, and I don't think I'm unique. We may not vote directly for the PM, but we might as well by the way our elections are run in this country. It's sad really that you can't see beyond the confines of your little box and even consider the question of image. It's what pretty much everyone else is doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SINC

If you don't know your local candidates and vote for the best one for you and your neighbours, you are not at all engaged in the process. I do and always have voted for my local candidate as do most people I know. This time around it will be for my independent candidate as I know him and what he represents. Canadians do not vote for the party leader. If Harper wins a minority for example, then resigns because of it, the party will vote to appoint to replace him as leader. Canadians do not have a vote for party leaders in any way, shape or form.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> If you don't know your local candidates and vote for the best one for you and your neighbours, you are not at all engaged in the process. I do and always have voted for my local candidate as do most people I know. This time around it will be for my independent candidate as I know him and what he represents. Canadians do not vote for the party leader. If Harper wins a minority for example, then resigns because of it, the party will vote to appoint to replace him as leader. Canadians do not have a vote for party leaders in any way, shape or form.



Yes I know it works that way in theory, but I bet if you talked to the average citizen, the ones we encourage to actually get and vote, most have no idea about their local candidate because it's the leaders doing pretty much all of the publicity. I have seen nearly nothing about our local reps, for example, so my vote will be based on my like or dislike for the party's platform and/or the leader. All the local reps do is toe the party line anyway once they're elected. As you get more local in the election process, say provincial or even more so municipal, the views of the candidate who represents your riding or ward seem to have a bigger influence. People where I live don't talk about voting against Garnet Genuis, for example, the talk about voting against Harper. The local candidates are treated more like place keepers or pawns, and for all intents and purposes, that's what most of them are. For a hell of salary too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

I vote primarily for party leader, and see my local candidate as the way to choose him/her--even though I understand that I am not choosing the PM directly..


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I vote primarily for party leader, and see my local candidate as the way to choose him/her--even though I understand that I am not choosing the PM directly..


I am partially in agreement here, Macfury. St. John's East once had a drop in candidate for the party for which I was considering voting. I could not bring myself to vote for this person, since her nomination seemed as if it was a patronage placement. So, I voted for another party, partially based on the honesty and integrity of the candidate. Sadly, this drop in candidate won ............ and was a true dud for our district.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Yes I know it works that way in theory, but I bet if you talked to the average citizen, the ones we encourage to actually get and vote, most have no idea about their local candidate because it's the leaders doing pretty much all of the publicity. I have seen nearly nothing about our local reps, for example, so my vote will be based on my like or dislike for the party's platform and/or the leader. All the local reps do is toe the party line anyway once they're elected. As you get more local in the election process, say provincial or even more so municipal, the views of the candidate who represents your riding or ward seem to have a bigger influence. People where I live don't talk about voting against Garnet Genuis, for example, the talk about voting against Harper. The local candidates are treated more like place keepers or pawns, and for all intents and purposes, that's what most of them are. For a hell of salary too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fair enough, we differ in how we vote, but you still do not vote for the party leader, never have and never will unless our system changes. And that's a fact.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Fair enough, we differ in how we vote, but you still do not vote for the party leader, never have and never will unless our system changes. And that's a fact.



Understood. But if I vote party leader and you vote local candidate and another person votes party, and we each get who we want, why difference does it make? The leader/candidate/party gets a seat either way. And the local rep still does everything caucus tells them to unless they want to get booted from caucus and/or the party.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CubaMark

*Campaign cone of silence descends on Saudi Arabia arms deal*

The revenant Bloc Quebecois leader, Gilles Duceppe, who has suddenly taken a great interest in anything pertaining to radical Islam, kicked things off during the French-language leaders' debate last Thursday.

"As we combat ISIS," he asked Stephen Harper, "We must realize that its ideology was financed and promoted by Saudi Arabia, and we are sending billions worth of arms to Saudi Arabia.

"Would it not be sensible to say that's enough, we're stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia? Wouldn't that be logical, given our fight with ISIS?"

Harper, a man who has portrayed his government's foreign policy as more principled and less susceptible to the power of the almighty dollar than other governments, basically replied that there's a lot of money at stake and thousands of jobs in London, Ont.

The contract to export $15 billion worth of armoured vehicles to the Saudis, he noted, is the largest in Canadian history.

Cancelling it would only punish Canadian workers, he said, and besides, the contract is "support for an ally."

"Yes, Saudi Arabia is a great ally," snorted Duceppe. "Wonderful. I've taken note."

* * *​
By some estimates, the Saudis actually outdo ISIS. They behead for imagined apostasy and for general criticism, but also for sorcery and a list of other offences. And after beheading, the Saudis sometimes crucify the body.

They're scheduled to do just that in the days to come with Mohammed al Nimr, 21, who was arrested four years ago for advocating on behalf of Shia rights.

The ruling Sunni family despises Shia Muslims, and mercilessly oppresses them.

If you can stomach it, go watch the video secretly recorded and uploaded of Saudi officials hacking the head off a Burmese woman accused of raping her husband's daughter with a broom handle.

Extremely uncommon, a woman raping a child with a broom handle, but someone had to be punished, and Laila Bint Abdul Muttalib Basim died shrieking her innocence.

* * *​
So. Why did Canada's arms sales die so quickly as a campaign issue? It wasn't even raised in the foreign policy debate a week later.

Well, our main party leaders really don't want to talk about it. Justin Trudeau simply evaded the question during the French debate.

Tom Mulcair went a bit further, saying Canada should study a country's human rights record before approving arms sales, and was promptly asked by a large industrial union involved in the contract, Unifor, to please shut up.

("We asked the NDP to not make this an issue, that it be kept under wraps," said Fergo Berto, Unifor area director for London.)

* * *​
The Saudis were even just awarded a prominent position on the UN Human Rights Council.

Human rights advocates thundered outrage. But Canada, in the past a pitiless critic of the council, maintained a respectful silence. After all, the Saudis are allies.​
(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

I think Mulcair should go bat**** crazy on this issue.



CubaMark said:


> *Campaign cone of silence descends on Saudi Arabia arms deal*
> 
> The revenant Bloc Quebecois leader, Gilles Duceppe, who has suddenly taken a great interest in anything pertaining to radical Islam, kicked things off during the French-language leaders' debate last Thursday.
> 
> "As we combat ISIS," he asked Stephen Harper, "We must realize that its ideology was financed and promoted by Saudi Arabia, and we are sending billions worth of arms to Saudi Arabia.
> 
> "Would it not be sensible to say that's enough, we're stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia? Wouldn't that be logical, given our fight with ISIS?"
> 
> Harper, a man who has portrayed his government's foreign policy as more principled and less susceptible to the power of the almighty dollar than other governments, basically replied that there's a lot of money at stake and thousands of jobs in London, Ont.
> 
> The contract to export $15 billion worth of armoured vehicles to the Saudis, he noted, is the largest in Canadian history.
> 
> Cancelling it would only punish Canadian workers, he said, and besides, the contract is "support for an ally."
> 
> "Yes, Saudi Arabia is a great ally," snorted Duceppe. "Wonderful. I've taken note."
> 
> * * *​
> By some estimates, the Saudis actually outdo ISIS. They behead for imagined apostasy and for general criticism, but also for sorcery and a list of other offences. And after beheading, the Saudis sometimes crucify the body.
> 
> They're scheduled to do just that in the days to come with Mohammed al Nimr, 21, who was arrested four years ago for advocating on behalf of Shia rights.
> 
> The ruling Sunni family despises Shia Muslims, and mercilessly oppresses them.
> 
> If you can stomach it, go watch the video secretly recorded and uploaded of Saudi officials hacking the head off a Burmese woman accused of raping her husband's daughter with a broom handle.
> 
> Extremely uncommon, a woman raping a child with a broom handle, but someone had to be punished, and Laila Bint Abdul Muttalib Basim died shrieking her innocence.
> 
> * * *​
> So. Why did Canada's arms sales die so quickly as a campaign issue? It wasn't even raised in the foreign policy debate a week later.
> 
> Well, our main party leaders really don't want to talk about it. Justin Trudeau simply evaded the question during the French debate.
> 
> Tom Mulcair went a bit further, saying Canada should study a country's human rights record before approving arms sales, and was promptly asked by a large industrial union involved in the contract, Unifor, to please shut up.
> 
> ("We asked the NDP to not make this an issue, that it be kept under wraps," said Fergo Berto, Unifor area director for London.)
> 
> * * *​
> The Saudis were even just awarded a prominent position on the UN Human Rights Council.
> 
> Human rights advocates thundered outrage. But Canada, in the past a pitiless critic of the council, maintained a respectful silence. After all, the Saudis are allies.​
> (CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

*A thoughtful post from Nova Scotia's "Silver" Donald Cameron:*

*Why I vote NDP*

_SILVER DONALD CAMERON·WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2015
_ 
My friend Stewart – a man I respect deeply – is confused. Who should he vote for? 

Not for the Harperites, whom he considers a “political catastrophe.” Agreed. But on Justin Trudeau he agrees with Harper: Trudeau is “not ready nor will he ever be.” And he won't vote Green because that won't serve his main goal, which is getting rid of the Harperites. 

Okay, so Stewart will vote NDP, right? Wrong. “I think the experience of NDP governments across the country has been no better, and sometimes much worse, than the 'old line parties,'”he writes. He admits he is “still scarred by the Dexter experience here in Nova Scotia – it was four long years of deception and disappointment.” 

Stewart, I have two things to say about all this. The first is that I think you're holding the NDP to a much higher standard than the other parties. That's fine by me, but you need to recognize it. The Dexter government was too often clumsy, cynical and tone-deaf, but it did some very good things – taking patronage out of the highways, protecting wilderness, and balancing the budget, for instance. (Several bond-rating agencies attest to that.) And the Dexter government was not corrupt, which can't be taken for granted in Nova Scotia; the Liberals, for instance, have never really manned up to their 1970s extortion racket known as “toll-gating.” 

The other thing is that you've apparently been absorbing the Harper propaganda, which portrays Harper as a great economic manager, which he patently is not, and the other parties, particularly the NDP, as reckless and unrealistic. On job creation, unemployment, GDP growth, exports, business investment – on 13 out of 16 indicators – Harper has the worst economic record of any prime minister since World War II. If deficits are poison, he's a total failure; he has run seven successive deficits. This is standard Tory practice, too. Brian Mulroney, as Jean Chretien once wryly commented, “took Trudeau's $160 billion federal debt... and 'reduced' it after eight years to $450 billion and climbing.” Chretien himself converted a $39 billion deficit in 1993 to an $11 billion surplus in 2003. Under Harper the debt has swollen again, having now risen to something over $600 billion. Terrific management, eh? 

The NDP is not a commonwealth of angels, but it's had plenty of experience running governments, and on the whole it's governed very well. It's deeply wary of deficits, which constrain its ability to implement and enhance social programs. The poster boy is Tommy Douglas, who won five straight majorities in Saskatchewan, ran 17 consecutive balanced budgets, introduced medicare and free hospital care, and brought in Canada's first Bill of Rights. Since Douglas, the NDP has won 12 of Saskatchewan’s 17 subsequent provincial elections, holding power for a total of 47 years under the leadership of Woodrow Lloyd, Bridgewater's own Allan Blakeney, Roy Romanow and Lorne Calvert, all highly capable premiers. 

Or look at Manitoba, which under four premiers – Schreyer, Pawley, Doer and Selinger --has been governed by the NDP for 31 of the last 46 years. Among its achievements: public auto insurance (which the NDP also introduced in BC and Saskatchewan), the entrenchment of French in the province's legal system, a human rights code, heavy investments in education, the lowest unemployment rates in Canada (at various times), not to mention major tax and social reforms which resulted in the complete removal of 15,000 low-income Manitobans from the tax rolls. It has consistently balanced its budgets – Gary Doer did ten straight balanced budgets – while at the same time cutting taxes and establishing a “rainy day fund” which at one point amounted to almost a billion dollars. 

Is this really “no better and sometimes worse” than, say, the Saskatchewan government of Conservative Grant Devine, 13 of whose MLAs were charged with fraud, with several ending up in the slammer? Was Mike Harcourt really no better than the reeking Liberal administration of Gordon Campbell in BC, whose sale of BC Rail saw police raids on the legislature itself, and two senior aides behind bars? Was Bob Rae's star-crossed government, desperately grappling with Ontario's worst economic decline since the Depression, really worse than the scandal-plagued regime of Conservative-turned-Liberal Jean Charest in Quebec? 

You and I, Stewart, were very concerned about the Nova Scotia NDP's aquaculture policy, which we did and do agree was dead wrong, and on which Dexter's NDP was immovable. But you may remember that I cautioned you at the time not to believe that defeating the NDP would necessarily produce a better result on the aquaculture file – and it hasn't. If anything, the current Liberal government is worse. 

As I said, the NDP is not a commonwealth of angels. But it has a very large contingent of dedicated, public spirited citizens among its members, and it has a record to be proud of. It has governed six provinces, and mostly it has governed them well. It's time it had a chance to govern all ten provinces. That's what I want to see on October 20, and I will do my level best to make it so. 

See you at the ballot box! 
Don​
(Facebook)


----------



## Macfury

Don't vote NDP Stewart--I'm with you! Your friend is misleading you! "Silver" runs a "prog" website that would directly benefit from an NDP government.



CubaMark said:


> *A thoughtful post from Nova Scotia's "Silver" Donald Cameron:*
> 
> *Why I vote NDP*
> 
> _SILVER DONALD CAMERON·WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2015
> _
> My friend Stewart – a man I respect deeply – is confused. Who should he vote for?
> 
> Not for the Harperites, whom he considers a “political catastrophe.” Agreed. But on Justin Trudeau he agrees with Harper: Trudeau is “not ready nor will he ever be.” And he won't vote Green because that won't serve his main goal, which is getting rid of the Harperites.
> 
> Okay, so Stewart will vote NDP, right? Wrong. “I think the experience of NDP governments across the country has been no better, and sometimes much worse, than the 'old line parties,'”he writes. He admits he is “still scarred by the Dexter experience here in Nova Scotia – it was four long years of deception and disappointment.”
> 
> Stewart, I have two things to say about all this. The first is that I think you're holding the NDP to a much higher standard than the other parties. That's fine by me, but you need to recognize it. The Dexter government was too often clumsy, cynical and tone-deaf, but it did some very good things – taking patronage out of the highways, protecting wilderness, and balancing the budget, for instance. (Several bond-rating agencies attest to that.) And the Dexter government was not corrupt, which can't be taken for granted in Nova Scotia; the Liberals, for instance, have never really manned up to their 1970s extortion racket known as “toll-gating.”
> 
> The other thing is that you've apparently been absorbing the Harper propaganda, which portrays Harper as a great economic manager, which he patently is not, and the other parties, particularly the NDP, as reckless and unrealistic. On job creation, unemployment, GDP growth, exports, business investment – on 13 out of 16 indicators – Harper has the worst economic record of any prime minister since World War II. If deficits are poison, he's a total failure; he has run seven successive deficits. This is standard Tory practice, too. Brian Mulroney, as Jean Chretien once wryly commented, “took Trudeau's $160 billion federal debt... and 'reduced' it after eight years to $450 billion and climbing.” Chretien himself converted a $39 billion deficit in 1993 to an $11 billion surplus in 2003. Under Harper the debt has swollen again, having now risen to something over $600 billion. Terrific management, eh?
> 
> The NDP is not a commonwealth of angels, but it's had plenty of experience running governments, and on the whole it's governed very well. It's deeply wary of deficits, which constrain its ability to implement and enhance social programs. The poster boy is Tommy Douglas, who won five straight majorities in Saskatchewan, ran 17 consecutive balanced budgets, introduced medicare and free hospital care, and brought in Canada's first Bill of Rights. Since Douglas, the NDP has won 12 of Saskatchewan’s 17 subsequent provincial elections, holding power for a total of 47 years under the leadership of Woodrow Lloyd, Bridgewater's own Allan Blakeney, Roy Romanow and Lorne Calvert, all highly capable premiers.
> 
> Or look at Manitoba, which under four premiers – Schreyer, Pawley, Doer and Selinger --has been governed by the NDP for 31 of the last 46 years. Among its achievements: public auto insurance (which the NDP also introduced in BC and Saskatchewan), the entrenchment of French in the province's legal system, a human rights code, heavy investments in education, the lowest unemployment rates in Canada (at various times), not to mention major tax and social reforms which resulted in the complete removal of 15,000 low-income Manitobans from the tax rolls. It has consistently balanced its budgets – Gary Doer did ten straight balanced budgets – while at the same time cutting taxes and establishing a “rainy day fund” which at one point amounted to almost a billion dollars.
> 
> Is this really “no better and sometimes worse” than, say, the Saskatchewan government of Conservative Grant Devine, 13 of whose MLAs were charged with fraud, with several ending up in the slammer? Was Mike Harcourt really no better than the reeking Liberal administration of Gordon Campbell in BC, whose sale of BC Rail saw police raids on the legislature itself, and two senior aides behind bars? Was Bob Rae's star-crossed government, desperately grappling with Ontario's worst economic decline since the Depression, really worse than the scandal-plagued regime of Conservative-turned-Liberal Jean Charest in Quebec?
> 
> You and I, Stewart, were very concerned about the Nova Scotia NDP's aquaculture policy, which we did and do agree was dead wrong, and on which Dexter's NDP was immovable. But you may remember that I cautioned you at the time not to believe that defeating the NDP would necessarily produce a better result on the aquaculture file – and it hasn't. If anything, the current Liberal government is worse.
> 
> As I said, the NDP is not a commonwealth of angels. But it has a very large contingent of dedicated, public spirited citizens among its members, and it has a record to be proud of. It has governed six provinces, and mostly it has governed them well. It's time it had a chance to govern all ten provinces. That's what I want to see on October 20, and I will do my level best to make it so.
> 
> See you at the ballot box!
> Don​
> (Facebook)


----------



## Vandave

Ya, real thoughtful. LOL. Try political. He tries to come across as balanced, but he fills the editorial with slant and lies.

Saying Harper has the worst economic record is world class stupid. I shouldn't have to explain why that is the case, so I won't. 

The NDP track record in BC is horrendous. It governed this Province based on special interests and extreme ideology. That's not good governance.

This meme that Harper has been a 'political catastrophe' is hard to take seriously. He's been a fairly moderate leader and has more or less continued from where Chretien and Martin left off.


----------



## Vandave

I think the story of this election will be the exact same story as the last 4 elections. 

Every election the opposition makes Harper the main target and the main issue. Before he governed, he was an extremist with a hidden agenda. And then, under a Minority, he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. And then under a Majority, with nothing left to attack him, he's been a political catastrophe. It's interesting to note that it's always an attack on Harper, not the Conservative government. 

Yet Harper keeps coming back stronger each election. This will likely be the first that he doesn't, but don't rule out a majority, based on his track record.

The guy is made of teflon. Despite all the yapping and attacking from the left, it never sticks. You'd think they'd change strategy after seeing it fail time and time again.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> Ya, real thoughtful. LOL. Try political. He tries to come across as balanced, but he fills the editorial with slant and lies.


Reminds me of a kid trying to convince another one that it's a good idea to stick his tongue against a metal fence post in February.


----------



## FeXL

As opposed to, say, what their husband forces them to do? Oh, the iron...

And, is the name calling because you can't come up with anything factual to actually refute his argument?

Question: Find me some empirical evidence somewhere that quantifies how many women who wear the niqab actually do it by choice, vs those who are forced into it by whatever outside influences & would not wear it otherwise. Then we can have a discussion.

Until then, seeing as numbers are so important to your discussion, 80% of Canadians disagree with you. 



CubaMark said:


> It boils down to nothing more than he wants women to do what he wants them to do, to hell with their personal or cultural beliefs.


----------



## FeXL

I find it curious that Saudi's have been doing what Saudi's do for decades while various Liberal & Conservative leaders governed Canada & nobody said squat.

Now that Harper is in power & seeking re-election, suddenly he's the fall guy...

Your attempts to slight Harper reek of desperation, CM. The NDP shot themselves in the foot with the niqab issue. They're done. That leaves Justin vs Harper. And, every time Justin opens his mouth, he merely exchanges feet.

I read an quip by a political observer yesterday that nailed it: The Conservatives should rent a bus & just have Justin tour the country.

18 days left & loving every minute of it...



CubaMark said:


> Campaign cone of silence descends on Saudi Arabia arms


----------



## Macfury

I once read about a woman who had a boiling pot of water thrown over her head. She told police she had it coming and knew what would happen if she angered her husband. It was her choice, so no harm, no foul--right, CM?



FeXL said:


> As opposed to, say, what their husband forces them to do? Oh, the iron...
> 
> And, is the name calling because you can't come up with anything factual to actually refute his argument?
> 
> Question: Find me some empirical evidence somewhere that quantifies how many women who wear the niqab actually do it by choice, vs those who are forced into it by whatever outside influences & would not wear it otherwise. Then we can have a discussion.
> 
> Until then, seeing as numbers are so important to your discussion, 80% of Canadians disagree with you.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, they read it on a lefty Facebook post. What further evidence do they need?



Vandave said:


> Saying Harper has the worst economic record is world class stupid. I shouldn't have to explain why that is the case, so I won't.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hey, they read it on a lefty Facebook post. What further evidence do they need?


_The Tyee a_nd Rabble.ca seal the deal by completing a three-way echo chamber.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> _The Tyee a_nd Rabble.ca seal the deal by completing a three-way echo chamber.


I'd suggest another empty space to add to the cacophony but decorum prohibits me from being that...honest.


----------



## CubaMark

Look at you guys. No discussion of the issues. Just the same old deflection, slights, "oh those darn commie lefty hippies, they just don't get it" blah blah f-ing blah.

And when it comes to name-calling, FeXL, you've already shown your extreme willingness to go in that direction at the drop of a hat. You have no credibility. Shall we go back to that issue from a month or so ago where you were straight out lying and incapable of admitting it?

No, thought not. Go on - keep babbling. It's like white noise to me now....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Look at you guys. No discussion of the issues. Just the same old deflection, slights, "oh those darn commie lefty hippies, they just don't get it" blah blah f-ing blah.





Macfury said:


> I once read about a woman who had a boiling pot of water thrown over her head. She told police she had it coming and knew what would happen if she angered her husband. It was her choice, so no harm, no foul--right, CM?


How is unwillingness to admit oppression different in the case of the niqab?


----------



## FeXL

So, tell me CM, how do you reconcile this:



CubaMark said:


> Look at you guys. No discussion of the issues. Just the same old deflection, slights, "oh those darn commie lefty hippies, they just don't get it" blah blah f-ing blah.


with this:



CubaMark said:


> What a dismissive, bigoted little ass is Ezra Levant. He rants and raves, but ultimately says nothing.
> 
> ...
> 
> I repeat: what an ass.


Thought not.

And, as far as this:



CubaMark said:


> You have no credibility.


Quoth the guy who uses a Facebook post (among other baseless sources) as some sort of credibility.

As to this:



CubaMark said:


> Shall we go back to that issue from a month or so ago where you were straight out lying and incapable of admitting it?


Yes! Absolutely! I have no idea what the F you're talking about but if you figured I lied, let's get to it.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Yes! Absolutely! I have no idea what the F you're talking about but if you figured I lied, let's get to it.


Apologies. "lied" is incorrect. It was more like an irrational diatribe attempting to link the GermanWings suicidal pilot to Jihadist organizations based on no credible sources. You continued for several thread pages, arguing against reality, and despite all evidence to the contrary, you declined to recognize the truth. 

That's dishonest, intentional anti-muslim hate incitement, but whether it was a collection of "lies" depends upon whether you did it intentionally or it was simply the product of ignorance and prejudice, that you actually believed the things you posted.


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Ya, real thoughtful. LOL. Try political. He tries to come across as balanced, but he fills the editorial with slant and lies.
> 
> Saying Harper has the worst economic record is world class stupid. I shouldn't have to explain why that is the case, so I won't...


If the Harper Government's economic record is wonderful, why not expound upon it?


----------



## SINC

Yep, bout right.


----------



## CubaMark

"A Palestinian on a motorcycle" — I'm disappointed to see you include that one, SINC.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> "A Palestinian on a motorcycle" — I'm disappointed to see you include that one, SINC.


I didn't. It came with the image.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Fair enough, we differ in how we vote, but you still do not vote for the party leader, never have and never will unless our system changes. And that's a fact.





fjnmusic said:


> Understood. But if I vote party leader and you vote local candidate and another person votes party, and we each get who we want, why difference does it make? The leader/candidate/party gets a seat either way. And the local rep still does everything caucus tells them to unless they want to get booted from caucus and/or the party.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What if the person you voted for crosses the floor?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> What if the person you voted for crosses the floor?


I'd be furious in most cases.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I'd be furious in most cases.


True. Your vote would be changed without your consent.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> You just don't get it do you? Canadians *DO NOT ELECT* leaders of political parties. Period. End of story.


So very true, most "democratic" systems were designed from the ground up to prevent voters from having any say as to whom runs their nation.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I didn't. It came with the image.


Next time make sure it knocks Christians and you might get a free pass.


----------



## FeXL

F'ing rights it's incorrect. I don't lie. Screw you, apology _not_ accepted. You make accusations like that, you'd damn well better have your story straight long before you put it on these boards. And _I_ have no credibility?

Secondly, it's been a little more than a month. More like 6. Hold a grudge, much?



CubaMark said:


> Apologies. "lied" is incorrect.


I based my opinion on what I had read at the time. Period.

You make it sound like I wrote pages on it, yet my count shows just 4 (FOUR!) whole posts, including the OP, that pertain directly to the subject, the last of which was my acknowledgment to fjnmusic that evidence supporting my OP was slim. The rest of the time I was addressing your bull**** accusations of avoiding the issue.



CubaMark said:


> It was more like an irrational diatribe blah, blah, blah. You continued for several thread pages blah, blah, blah arguing against reality blah, blah, blah you declined to recognize the truth.


When I actually hate someone, you'll know & recognize it. Until then, keep your dime store psychological analyses to yourself. You've done enough damage for one day...



CubaMark said:


> That's dishonest, intentional anti-muslim hate incitement blah, blah, blah...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> F'ing rights it's incorrect. I don't lie. Screw you, apology _not_ accepted.


Fine. Your decision to continue to be antagonistic. IMHO, not a great path to mental health.



FeXL said:


> I based my opinion on what I had read at the time. Period.


 Dude. You cited _Pamela freaking Geller_ as support for your position. I don't think there's a less-credible source on the planet...



FeXL said:


> When I actually hate someone, you'll know & recognize it. Until then, keep your dime store psychological analyses to yourself. You've done enough damage for one day...


The vicious right issues not-so-veiled threats, and the Left quakes in his... wait, no, that's not right. The thunder and bombast has little effect on me. I enjoy a good storm...

*Now back to regularly unscheduled programming!*


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Well at least she wasn't smoking' weed eh? Con Bee Gone.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/...a-was-pictured-drinking-with-unde#.eylwVlZ77w


----------



## Macfury

Ha! You didn't read the article Jimbo!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Well at least she wasn't smoking' weed eh? Con Bee Gone.
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/...a-was-pictured-drinking-with-unde#.eylwVlZ77w


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I think the story of this election will be the exact same story as the last 4 elections.
> 
> 
> 
> Every election the opposition makes Harper the main target and the main issue. Before he governed, he was an extremist with a hidden agenda. And then, under a Minority, he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. And then under a Majority, with nothing left to attack him, he's been a political catastrophe. It's interesting to note that it's always an attack on Harper, not the Conservative government.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Harper keeps coming back stronger each election. This will likely be the first that he doesn't, but don't rule out a majority, based on his track record.
> 
> 
> 
> The guy is made of teflon. Despite all the yapping and attacking from the left, it never sticks. You'd think they'd change strategy after seeing it fail time and time again.



You make some good points here, Vandave.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> You make some good points here, Vandave.


Thanks. 

I think there is a political lesson there. Harper has been given 3 terms as PM and he's been there for 10 years now. You can't spin away that type of longevity. It doesn't fit that our 6th longest standing PM is some kind of extremist or an aberration of 'Canadian values'. 

Maybe a little more honesty would have gone further, instead of playing to the 10 or 20% of Canadians that viciously hate the guy. 

I think it's too late now to change course for the Liberals or NDP. Hindsight is 20:20 and I think history will look back at this as being a bit of a head scratcher. Why did these guys hate a moderate governing PM so much, even after he had a majority?

I think the Conservatives are going to hammer home 'Jobs, Economy, Steady Leadership and Stay the Course' for the next couple weeks. I honestly think that is going to have traction because none of the attacks have stuck to Harper. He's past the rough patch and people are going to be fatigued by this long election and confused by all the messaging each party has done. A lot of people will stick to the devil they know... in my view.


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> I think there is a political lesson there. Harper has been given 3 terms as PM and he's been there for 10 years now. You can't spin away that type of longevity. It doesn't fit that our 6th longest standing PM is some kind of extremist or an aberration of 'Canadian values'.
> 
> Maybe a little more honesty would have gone further, instead of playing to the 10 or 20% of Canadians that viciously hate the guy.


I'm somewhat more pessimistic in my view of the average Canadian voter. Harper has enacted domestic economic, social and scientific policies that will have profound effects over the long-term. Many Canadians — apathetic voters that we are (2008: 58.8%, 2011: 61.4%) — I believe are distracted by nonsense issues and have no deep appreciation or understanding of what the Conservatives have done. CETA, TPP, 'free trade' deals with Korea, Honduras, Panama, Jordan, Colombia, Peru... these all have significant repercussions on the Canadian economy, the effects of which are sometimes subtle, and sometimes delayed in reaching popular awareness.

Harper's relationship with Canada's Premiers certainly hasn't grown. 

And the changes to Canada's Health care sector... whooo boy. Funding cuts, the dismantling of the Health Council of Canada... measures that have removed accountability and created uncertainty at the provincial level from coast to coast.

Then there's the ridiculous state of military upgrade and procurement, pathetic treatment of veterans, our tagging along like a dog behind its master when it comes to US military adventurism and war-making....

Each of these issues has a passionate group of voters behind them, and yet national consciousness seems to be muted in a way I don't understand. Are people just resigned to the status quo? Spending their free time on Netflix? What accounts for the disconnect / disengagement?


----------



## Macfury

I think we can add to that all sorts of good news economic reports showing that there was no economic crisis of the type that Trudeau and Mulcair were claiming. Their attacks were off and so was their timing. Harper is a smart enough guy that he may have known the news was coming right on schedule:

Canada’s economy puts recession behind it with second straight month of growth | Financial Post

Economy’s bounce back from recession bigger than expected - National | Globalnews.ca





Vandave said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I think there is a political lesson there. Harper has been given 3 terms as PM and he's been there for 10 years now. You can't spin away that type of longevity. It doesn't fit that our 6th longest standing PM is some kind of extremist or an aberration of 'Canadian values'.
> 
> Maybe a little more honesty would have gone further, instead of playing to the 10 or 20% of Canadians that viciously hate the guy.
> 
> I think it's too late now to change course for the Liberals or NDP. Hindsight is 20:20 and I think history will look back at this as being a bit of a head scratcher. Why did these guys hate a moderate governing PM so much, even after he had a majority?
> 
> I think the Conservatives are going to hammer home 'Jobs, Economy, Steady Leadership and Stay the Course' for the next couple weeks. I honestly think that is going to have traction because none of the attacks have stuck to Harper. He's past the rough patch and people are going to be fatigued by this long election and confused by all the messaging each party has done. A lot of people will stick to the devil they know... in my view.


----------



## Macfury

I posit that you are the one who is disconnected and probably spend too much time in a "prog" echo chamber. If you get out once in awhile, you'll see it's not the cesspool you frequently imagine.

It's like when I look at Obama voters and can't see why they're not distraught. Ultimately I have to accept that some people want to be led around like a pig with a ring in its snout and be smothered in cradle to grave handouts.



CubaMark said:


> What accounts for the disconnect / disengagement?


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> I posit that you are the one who is disconnected and probably spend too much time in a "prog" echo chamber. If you get out once in awhile, you'll see it's not the cesspool you frequently imagine.


There are definitely a lot of people on the left who live in such an echo chamber. My step mother is into that crowd. She felt the NDP victory in Alberta was somehow a message to the Federal Conservative movement.  It's patently obvious that Albertans voted out a stale government rather than voting in the NDP, yet so many want to think it's some type of 'progressive' breakthrough. 

As somebody currently voting Conservative, by all means, the left should keep yapping. All it does it turn people away at the end of the day. I was honestly voting Liberal for a couple weeks there. It wasn't Trudeau that turned me away so much as Liberal and NDP supporters who would claim my vote would have been against Harper. No, it would have been a vote in support of your platform. And for the record, I agree with a lot of Trudeau's platform and I disagree with Harper on a lot of stuff. But, at least I know what I'm getting.


----------



## FeXL

Falsely calling someone else a liar isn't being antagonistic? Screw you again. Pull the other one.

And, big surprise, once more your dime store psychoanalysis rears its ugly head. Keep it for your kids, I'm long past that stage.



CubaMark said:


> Fine. Your decision to continue to be antagonistic. IMHO, not a great path to mental health.


Once again, your inferior debating skills show their slip. It doesn't matter who says what. It matters what they say. You're ready to write off the opinion of scores of people without even listening to their argument. That's not debate. That's scripture, another surprise...



CubaMark said:


> Dude. You cited _Pamela freaking Geller_ as support for your position. I don't think there's a less-credible source on the planet...


Once again, you assume & I must explain. That's 3 for 3. This is getting tiresome & a perfect example of why I told you I don't interpret anything posted & accept it at face value.

"not-so-veiled threats"? Victim!! He's threatening me!!! Victim!!! Again, it has been a long time... You aren't worthy of the mud off my boots, let alone physical violence. 

There are a few situations & people in life that really PMO. When I speak of them, it will be crystal clear exactly which things those are. That's what I meant about being recognizable. Get over yourself. 



CubaMark said:


> The vicious right issues not-so-veiled threats, and the Left quakes in his... wait, no, that's not right.


----------



## FeXL

I took part in a political phone survey a couple of weeks back. It became patently obvious that it was either sponsored by the CBC or the NDP (but I repeat myself).

They were trying their damnedest to draw a connection between the NDP win in Alberta & votes for Mulcair. I'm afraid I may have disappointed the little darlings when I noted that, if anything, the Alberta NDP win ensured that I would definitely not be voting for them Federally...



Vandave said:


> She felt the NDP victory in Alberta was somehow a message to the Federal Conservative movement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dickstra and Harper


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dickstra and Kathy


----------



## Vandave

Dutch people don't give anything away for free. Innocent.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> There are definitely a lot of people on the left who live in such an echo chamber. My step mother is into that crowd. She felt the NDP victory in Alberta was somehow a message to the Federal Conservative movement.  It's patently obvious that Albertans voted out a stale government rather than voting in the NDP, yet so many want to think it's some type of 'progressive' breakthrough.
> 
> 
> 
> As somebody currently voting Conservative, by all means, the left should keep yapping. All it does it turn people away at the end of the day. I was honestly voting Liberal for a couple weeks there. It wasn't Trudeau that turned me away so much as Liberal and NDP supporters who would claim my vote would have been against Harper. No, it would have been a vote in support of your platform. And for the record, I agree with a lot of Trudeau's platform and I disagree with Harper on a lot of stuff. But, at least I know what I'm getting.



With respect to your argument about Alberta, if Albertans had really decided they wanted a change they COULD have voted in the Wild Rose party. But they didn't. I think there may be more of a shift to the left in Alberta than you realize. And the NDP won a sizeable majority too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> With respect to your argument about Alberta, if Albertans had really decided they wanted a change they COULD have voted in the Wild Rose party. But they didn't. I think there may be more of a shift to the left in Alberta than you realize. And the NDP won a sizeable majority too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is where you are dead wrong. The Wildrose did not do well because of the defection of Danille Smith and her cronies. They too were punished. The 'get rid of the NDP movement' is growing in numbers every day and they will never regain power. They are strictly an accidental government.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> This is where you are dead wrong. The Wildrose did not do well because of the defection of Danille Smith and her cronies. They too were punished. The 'get rid of the NDP movement' is growing in numbers every day and they will never regain power. They are strictly an accidental government.



The results of the last election would seem to suggest that you are wrong, amigo. People are fickle, and many may have certainly changed their mind since May 5, but you would have to be blind to have missed that two right wing parties, not just one, failed to capture enough votes to form government. It's amazing how long you can be in denial about this. Surely even a damaged Wildrose should have been preferable to an NDP gov't if the electorate were still leaning to the right. But they're not. People complain but they would complain no matter who was in charge. Blame OPEC for flooding the market if you want to blame anyone for why Alberta and by extension the rest of Canada is suffering right now. Better yet, blame the previous gov't for not diversifying sooner. But it is silly to blame the Alberta gov't for business having cold feet right now. You'd have to be super-rich or an idiot to be investing in the midst of a bust cycle. Wait until the budget, then complain all you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

You can bet the outrage will be very clear when the budget is dropped.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Ketchup, buttocks, batons and Fantino. Putting the con in the cons...


http://m.torontosun.com/2015/10/01/julian-fantino-charged-with-assault-over-1973-arrest


----------



## Macfury

You consistently ignore Wildrose's defection to the CPC. After defecting so close to an election they were no longer trusted as right wing. You can't rebuild the brand in a couple of weeks.

You don't have to be crazy to invest in a lull. This is a good time for exploration--except when Notley creates an air of distrust and apprehension. This is all on her.

And why all this nonsense about the government being responsible for "diversifying" an economy? If that's what the NDP is supposed to do, what diversity mix did you vote for? 




fjnmusic said:


> The results of the last election would seem to suggest that you are wrong, amigo. People are fickle, and many may have certainly changed their mind since May 5, but you would have to be blind to have missed that two right wing parties, not just one, failed to capture enough votes to form government. It's amazing how long you can be in denial about this. Surely even a damaged Wildrose should have been preferable to an NDP gov't if the electorate were still leaning to the right. But they're not. People complain but they would complain no matter who was in charge. Blame OPEC for flooding the market if you want to blame anyone for why Alberta and by extension the rest of Canada is suffering right now. Better yet, blame the previous gov't for not diversifying sooner. But it is silly to blame the Alberta gov't for business having cold feet right now. You'd have to be super-rich or an idiot to be investing in the midst of a bust cycle. Wait until the budget, then complain all you want.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

*Lynton Crosby's Dog Whistle Politics Of The Worst Kind*

Seems Lynton Crosby's Dog Whistle Politics Of The Worst Kind are being unleashed to distract Canadians from the abysmal economic record of the current Conservative Government.

A rat line is being set up to distract Canadians from the important issues in this election. When the facts get in the way of the huge issue of the Niqab wearing women. The facts are it is only two women and one woman publicly articulated her opinion very well. 

What are the Conservatives to do? 

Play the same ugly politics, only this time enlarge the group?

Consrvative RATLINE SUPPORT


Vile, Disgusting and Obnoxious. Very unCanadian politics that is until OGL came along.


----------



## Vandave

BigDL said:


> Vile, Disgusting and Obnoxious. Very unCanadian politics that is until OGL came along.


How many wives do you have BigDL and what's your address / phone number?


----------



## CubaMark

BigDL said:


> Seems Lynton Crosby's Dog Whistle Politics Of The Worst Kind are being unleashed to distract Canadians from the abysmal economic record of the current Conservative Government.
> 
> A rat line is being set up to distract Canadians from the important issues in this election. When the facts get in the way of the huge issue of the Niqab wearing women.


And, gosh golly. How could this happen? Surely no connection between the Conservatives' constant harping on the niqab issue....  

*Quebec legislature pleads for calm after Muslim woman attacked*

Quebec’s National Assembly made a unanimous call for calm in the midst of the federal election campaign as the province is again roiled by Islamophobia and at least one violent act targeting a Muslim.

The motion came Thursday after news this week that *teenagers knocked a pregnant woman to the ground by grabbing her Muslim scarf, known as a hijab, as she walked on a Montreal street.* The woman was unhurt but extremely upset, her husband said.

The sponsors of the motion said the Syrian refugee crisis and the federal debate over the place of the niqab in Canadian citizenship ceremonies has once again inflamed passions in the province, turning social media into a cesspool of hateful messages and putting pressure on Muslims.​
(Globe & Mail)


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> A rat line is being set up to distract Canadians from the important issues in this election. When the facts get in the way of the huge issue of the Niqab wearing women. The facts are it is only two women and one woman publicly articulated her opinion very well.
> 
> What are the Conservatives to do?


You missed the fact that 80% of Canadians polled agree with the Conservative stance on the Niqab. They gain in the polls and the Libs/Dippers suffer because of it, especially Mulcair in Quebec.


----------



## BigDL

Who hears the DOG WHISTLE and that makes them what?



Vandave said:


> How many wives do you have BigDL and what's your address / phone number?





SINC said:


> You missed the fact that 80% of Canadians polled agree with the Conservative stance on the Niqab. They gain in the polls and the Libs/Dippers suffer because of it, especially Mulcair in Quebec.


----------



## SINC

Man, once he gets a new toy he continues to play that whistle. And thinks large type is part of rational debate.


----------



## Vandave

SINC said:


> You missed the fact that 80% of Canadians polled agree with the Conservative stance on the Niqab. They gain in the polls and the Libs/Dippers suffer because of it, especially Mulcair in Quebec.


The left (at least the 'academic wing') is very inconsistent and hypocritical when it comes to religions not called Christianity. It's OK to bash Christians (I am a secular Buddhist fyi), criticize their social beliefs, but they have a double standard when it comes to Muslims. If a Christian sect were to put a bag over the heads of their women, the left would strongly lash out against this act. But, it's silence when it comes to others. 

Christopher Hitchens, who is an avid socialist, has pointed out this hypocrisy time and time again and Sam Harris has picked up where he left off.

But as you can see from the polling, even left leaning people in Canada don't agree with the ideology of their party leaders. We're going to need some re-education camps should they win. I'm sure Mulcair will find room in the budget for that.


----------



## Vandave

BigDL said:


> Who hears the DOG WHISTLE and that makes them what?


I'll mark you down for 3 wives in that case. 

What's the number for me to call to report you?


----------



## SINC

Vandave said:


> The left (at least the 'academic wing') is very inconsistent and hypocritical when it comes to religions not called Christianity. It's OK to bash Christians (I am a secular Buddhist fyi), criticize their social beliefs, but they have a double standard when it comes to Muslims.


Yep, I always ask lefties what they think would happen if the sitution were reversed and the refugees were Christians fleeing into a Muslim country? Anyone want to hazard a guess?


----------



## Vandave

Are 'Dog Whistle' politics really so wrong? How is it any different from 'Dog Treat' politics or 'Dog Eat Dog' politics or 'Koreans Eat Dogs' politics?

Are you really offended that politicians play to a certain group? How is this new? The electorate has always been treated like dogs. Mulcair has been handing out more 'Dog Treats' than anybody in recent history. What's the purpose of half his proposed spending if not 'Dog Treats'? 

As far a 'Dog Eat Dog', what have all the leaders been doing to each other this whole election? They attack each other and make up lies about the other guys beliefs and proposals.

It's the nature of politics. You act like your guys **** don't stink, while they're busy sniffing ass.

I agree with Churchill... Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others.

Embrace it.


----------



## Macfury

Mulcair's got his sniffer underneath the tail and up the rumps of Quebec separatists. I may find it disgusting, but it's still fair politics.


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> I'll mark you down for 3 wives in that case.
> 
> What's the number for me to call to report you?


You would be dead wrong. 

As is the custom, I have as many wives as I can afford. And I mean at one time, unlike some here, who have many serial wives.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> And, gosh golly. How could this happen? Surely no connection between the Conservatives' constant harping on the niqab issue....


It would hardly be mentioned at all if not by Mulcair and Trudeau.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It would hardly be mentioned at all if not by Mulcair and Trudeau.


I should think, if constituencies voted in huge numbers especially where their votes are concentrated and would change the outcome for the representative elected, the Conservatives may not act so cavalierly as demonizing groups they have little fear of presently. 

Perhaps, this time, with get out the vote action plans the groups will vote in droves.


----------



## Macfury

Who is the group that might believe they are being demonized?



BigDL said:


> I should think, if constituencies voted in huge numbers especially where their votes are concentrated and would change the outcome for the representative elected, the Conservatives may not act so cavalierly as demonizing groups they have little fear of presently.
> 
> Perhaps, this time, with get out the vote action plans the groups will vote in droves.


----------



## FeXL

Well, now that the NDP are out of the race, time to work on the Liberals. Provincial or Federal, same thing...

Wynne’s losing performance: How Ontario’s growth-killing policies are sinking the economy



> *Ontarians are clearly having buyer’s remorse after re-electing its Liberal government last year, with two-thirds now believing that Ontario is headed in the wrong direction.* An exasperated Kathleen Wynne recently asked “What is it that especially disqualifies me for the job I’m doing?” as Premier of Ontario. Well, since she asked, let’s list the problems the Liberal government has created.


M'bold.

The list is long & distinguished...

Further:

Failed government policies sinking Ontario economy: Fraser Institute



> The new report suggests failed government policies are to blame for turning the powerhouse economy into a laggard.
> 
> *"So much of it seems to be rooted in the policies adopted over the last 10 years," Cross said. "These problems, whether it's sluggish growth, whether it's rising unemployment, whether it's high youth unemployment, whether it's weak business investment, high electricity prices -- every single one of them go back at least 10 years."*


----------



## FeXL

Oh, BTW, she's liberal...

Former Quebec lieutenant-governor led to jail in handcuffs on fraud conviction



> When she was Quebec’s lieutenant-governor, Lise Thibault expensed roof repairs, ski and golf outings, legal fees for her divorce lawyer, a specially adapted golf cart, and travel, dinner and birthdays with friends and family. She once filed expense claims for fishing rods and earthworms purchased from a hunting shop.
> 
> All in all, she claimed $700,000 in expenses unrelated to her vice-regal duties.
> 
> On Wednesday, the ailing 76-year-old was sentenced to 18 months in prison for breach of trust and fraud, and was led away in handcuffs.


Where's the hue & cry from the left & the MSM? She makes Duffy look like a piker...


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> Where's the hue & cry from the left & the MSM? She makes Duffy look like a piker...


The NDP scandal was definitely tucked under the rug by the media.

I volunteered in prior elections and the NDP were playing some games around their Provincial and Federal resources in each other's elections. They also encourage government union staff to work for them during work hours or take a sick day on election day. I think the scandal they caught was only part of what was or still is going on with the NDP.


----------



## FeXL

Even his own candidates see the writing on the wall.

Thomas Mulcair's Niqab Policy Opposed By 3 More Quebec NDP Candidates



> Three more NDP candidates in Quebec are backing away from party leader Thomas Mulcair's stated policy on the niqab and are telling their constituents they oppose the wearing of face veils during citizenship ceremonies.
> 
> Danielle Landreville, the NDP candidate in Joliette, said Tuesday that she opposes the wearing of the niqab, pure and simple.
> 
> ...
> 
> Romeo Saganash, the incumbent candidate for Abitibi–Baie-James–Nunavik–Eeyou, seemed to suggest Monday during a local debate that new Canadians should learn to assimilate.
> 
> ...
> 
> Last week, another NDP incumbent candidate, Pierre Nantel, told constituents during a debate in his riding of Longueuil–Saint-Hubert that he also opposes the wearing of the niqab during citizenship ceremonies.


Too little, too late...


----------



## BigDL

macfury said:


> who is the group that might believe they are being demonized?


Groups


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Groups


OK, roups... who is being given the visage of a demon?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Corruption and abuse of power galore....consbegone 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/don-meredith-senator-case-ethics-officer-investigation-1.3255055


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Well, now that the NDP are out of the race, time to work on the Liberals. Provincial or Federal, same thing...
> 
> 
> 
> Wynne’s losing performance: How Ontario’s growth-killing policies are sinking the economy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> 
> 
> The list is long & distinguished...
> 
> 
> 
> Further:
> 
> 
> 
> Failed government policies sinking Ontario economy: Fraser Institute



If you are so big on equating provincial parties with their federal counterparts, why aren't you comparing Jim Prentice's outstanding provincial gov't in Alberta with Harper's federally? I mean, Prentice was deputy under Harper once. Surely there must be a connection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> OK, roups... who is being given the visage of a demon?


As to which groups in particular, I don't detect DogWhistle. I should think your question, is better directed to the confrere, who self identify as having that attribute.


----------



## FeXL

If Harper treated his countrymen the same way Prentice treated Albertans, I'd entirely support him getting the identical treatment Prentice did. Harper hasn't & won't. Mulcair & Justin will duplicate what their provincial counterparts have done. 



fjnmusic said:


> ... why aren't you comparing Jim Prentice's outstanding provincial gov't in Alberta with Harper's federally?


----------



## BigDL

Why the Conservative RATLINE SUPPORT?

Why not a Tipline and resources for the RCMP with regard to reporting activities of 1% outlaw bikers, other drug dealer, Gangs and gang violence? Why the Tattleline the conservatives chose?


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> If Harper treated his countrymen the same way Prentice treated Albertans, I'd entirely support him getting the identical treatment Prentice did. Harper hasn't & won't. Mulcair & Justin will duplicate what their provincial counterparts have done.



It's interesting, because just the summer before, Prentice was hailed as the great white hope after the Redford debacle. But it was just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic; the Tory PC brand had already been damaged beyond repair and Albertans were en masse figuring it out. Nobody stays in power for 44 years without letting it go to their heads. 

I think there is still a great deal of discontent in Alberta with the PC brand, so don't be surprised if there is a great deal more variety in color across the province this time out than there was in the last three elections.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Megan Leslie is the incumbent MLA for Halifax*

*Megan Leslie* shared Asraa EL's event.
_2 hrs · _

I had a hard time getting to sleep last night. I couldn't stop thinking about the woman who was attacked by teenage boys who ripped off her hijab.

I don't like to wear skirts above the knee. I guess it's my own personal sense of modesty. I haven't thought "why" much, it's just that I'm more comfortable in skirts to the knee.

I have tried to imagine how I would feel if I was attacked by men or boys who tried to rip my skirt higher. It immediately makes my chest tight and tears spring to my eyes. I get a glimpse, but just a glimpse, of the terror. This is why I can't sleep.

I went to the mosque on Agricola today (Centre for Islamic Development) not as a politician, but as a member of the community, a friend and a neighbour, to say that I condemn these racist acts. I wanted to look in they eyes of everyone there and say "I stand with you."

I do not stand with a government that creates a fictional crisis about a woman taking a ceremonial oath while wearing a niqab. I reject a government that says Syrian refugees are likely terrorists because of where they come from: refugees are not terrorists; they are the first victims of terror.

Women told me about how they get shouted at on the street for wearing a headscarf, right here in Halifax. Another how she was told to go back to where she came from: she was born in Nova Scotia. Another who said that I could not imagine the constant fear of being a Muslim right now. A girl, a teenage girl said she asked her dad to turn off the radio because she can't bear to listen to the news.

They're clannish. They're hyper-religious. They come from a backward culture. They could be terrorists. This is what they said about the Irish coming to Canada. George Brown, founder of the Globe newspaper, dedicated pages to anti-Irish sentiment, arguing why they shouldn't be let into Canada.

The Irish will change our country! Well, they did. And I kinda like that they did.

The Ummah Masjid, the mosque on Chebucto, they're organizing a coat drive to deliver warm winter coats to those in need. We should all ask ourselves honestly when the last time was that we engaged in a selfless act like this.

I'm learning a lot from Muslim friends and community leaders, and I learned a lot today. And I left the mosque with a sense of fellowship and of hope. Then I just learned that the Conservatives are setting up a hotline where you can snitch on your neighbours if they engage in barbaric cultural practices. Barbaric cultural practices like food drives and free winter coats?

I'd like to call in the barbaric cultural practice of not ensuring a woman has access to abortion in many parts of Canada, even if she's been raped. Or the barbaric cultural practice of thinking a teenage girl has consented to sex when she's vomiting out the window. Or the barbaric cultural practice of letting 1100 Indigenous women go missing or be murdered without our government asking the question "why?".

If you have a warm coat, or if you have a little money to contribute, or if you want to volunteer, contact the kind folks organizing Coats for Humanity. Drop off your coat and stay a little while for some community and friendship. It is small but significant acts like this that can help push back the fear and hate.​
(Megan Leslie - Facebook)


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> I think there is still a great deal of discontent in Alberta with the PC brand, so don't be surprised if there is a great deal more variety in color across the province this time out than there was in the last three elections.


I won't be surprised if people who do not understand the Alberta NDP is an accidental government elected as a protest vote by Albertans, are surprised by the lack and decline of NDP support federally, a precursor to the demise of the provincial Dippers in one short lived term.


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *Megan Leslie is the incumbent MLA for Halifax*
> 
> *Megan Leslie* shared Asraa EL's event.
> _2 hrs · _
> 
> I had a hard time getting to sleep last night. I couldn't stop thinking about the woman who was attacked by teenage boys who ripped off her hijab.
> 
> I don't like to wear skirts above the knee. I guess it's my own personal sense of modesty. I haven't thought "why" much, it's just that I'm more comfortable in skirts to the knee.
> 
> I have tried to imagine how I would feel if I was attacked by men or boys who tried to rip my skirt higher. It immediately makes my chest tight and tears spring to my eyes. I get a glimpse, but just a glimpse, of the terror. This is why I can't sleep.
> 
> I went to the mosque on Agricola today (Centre for Islamic Development) not as a politician, but as a member of the community, a friend and a neighbour, to say that I condemn these racist acts. I wanted to look in they eyes of everyone there and say "I stand with you."
> 
> I do not stand with a government that creates a fictional crisis about a woman taking a ceremonial oath while wearing a niqab. I reject a government that says Syrian refugees are likely terrorists because of where they come from: refugees are not terrorists; they are the first victims of terror.
> 
> Women told me about how they get shouted at on the street for wearing a headscarf, right here in Halifax. Another how she was told to go back to where she came from: she was born in Nova Scotia. Another who said that I could not imagine the constant fear of being a Muslim right now. A girl, a teenage girl said she asked her dad to turn off the radio because she can't bear to listen to the news.
> 
> They're clannish. They're hyper-religious. They come from a backward culture. They could be terrorists. This is what they said about the Irish coming to Canada. George Brown, founder of the Globe newspaper, dedicated pages to anti-Irish sentiment, arguing why they shouldn't be let into Canada.
> 
> The Irish will change our country! Well, they did. And I kinda like that they did.
> 
> The Ummah Masjid, the mosque on Chebucto, they're organizing a coat drive to deliver warm winter coats to those in need. We should all ask ourselves honestly when the last time was that we engaged in a selfless act like this.
> 
> I'm learning a lot from Muslim friends and community leaders, and I learned a lot today. And I left the mosque with a sense of fellowship and of hope. Then I just learned that the Conservatives are setting up a hotline where you can snitch on your neighbours if they engage in barbaric cultural practices. Barbaric cultural practices like food drives and free winter coats?
> 
> I'd like to call in the barbaric cultural practice of not ensuring a woman has access to abortion in many parts of Canada, even if she's been raped. Or the barbaric cultural practice of thinking a teenage girl has consented to sex when she's vomiting out the window. Or the barbaric cultural practice of letting 1100 Indigenous women go missing or be murdered without our government asking the question "why?".
> 
> If you have a warm coat, or if you have a little money to contribute, or if you want to volunteer, contact the kind folks organizing Coats for Humanity. Drop off your coat and stay a little while for some community and friendship. It is small but significant acts like this that can help push back the fear and hate.​
> (Megan Leslie - Facebook)


Where is that like button when you need one?


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> I won't be surprised if people who do not understand the Alberta NDP is an accidental government elected as a protest vote by Albertans, are surprised by the lack and decline of NDP support federally, a precursor to the demise of the provincial Dippers in one short lived term.



I fully expect the NDP federally to not do as well as the Alberta NDP, because they are a different organization and their leader is not nearly as wise or as charismatic. Plus she has blue eyes. Mulcair strikes me as disingenuous. He's not made of the same stuff as Notley. But the NDP have made huge inroads in Alberta, and those ripples will be felt. Alberta is just not PC country anymore, or at least not to the same extent that it was in the last three elections. My point is that the solid Con support of the past is going to slip this time out, probably most noticeably in the urban centers first. We shall see. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *Megan Leslie is the incumbent MLA for Halifax*
> 
> *Megan Leslie* shared Asraa EL's event.
> _2 hrs · _
> 
> I had a hard time getting to sleep last night. I couldn't stop thinking about the woman who was attacked by teenage boys who ripped off her hijab.
> 
> I don't like to wear skirts above the knee. I guess it's my own personal sense of modesty. I haven't thought "why" much, it's just that I'm more comfortable in skirts to the knee.
> 
> I have tried to imagine how I would feel if I was attacked by men or boys who tried to rip my skirt higher. It immediately makes my chest tight and tears spring to my eyes. I get a glimpse, but just a glimpse, of the terror. This is why I can't sleep.
> 
> I went to the mosque on Agricola today (Centre for Islamic Development) not as a politician, but as a member of the community, a friend and a neighbour, to say that I condemn these racist acts. I wanted to look in they eyes of everyone there and say "I stand with you."
> 
> I do not stand with a government that creates a fictional crisis about a woman taking a ceremonial oath while wearing a niqab. I reject a government that says Syrian refugees are likely terrorists because of where they come from: refugees are not terrorists; they are the first victims of terror.
> 
> Women told me about how they get shouted at on the street for wearing a headscarf, right here in Halifax. Another how she was told to go back to where she came from: she was born in Nova Scotia. Another who said that I could not imagine the constant fear of being a Muslim right now. A girl, a teenage girl said she asked her dad to turn off the radio because she can't bear to listen to the news.
> 
> They're clannish. They're hyper-religious. They come from a backward culture. They could be terrorists. This is what they said about the Irish coming to Canada. George Brown, founder of the Globe newspaper, dedicated pages to anti-Irish sentiment, arguing why they shouldn't be let into Canada.
> 
> The Irish will change our country! Well, they did. And I kinda like that they did.
> 
> The Ummah Masjid, the mosque on Chebucto, they're organizing a coat drive to deliver warm winter coats to those in need. We should all ask ourselves honestly when the last time was that we engaged in a selfless act like this.
> 
> I'm learning a lot from Muslim friends and community leaders, and I learned a lot today. And I left the mosque with a sense of fellowship and of hope. Then I just learned that the Conservatives are setting up a hotline where you can snitch on your neighbours if they engage in barbaric cultural practices. Barbaric cultural practices like food drives and free winter coats?
> 
> I'd like to call in the barbaric cultural practice of not ensuring a woman has access to abortion in many parts of Canada, even if she's been raped. Or the barbaric cultural practice of thinking a teenage girl has consented to sex when she's vomiting out the window. Or the barbaric cultural practice of letting 1100 Indigenous women go missing or be murdered without our government asking the question "why?".
> 
> If you have a warm coat, or if you have a little money to contribute, or if you want to volunteer, contact the kind folks organizing Coats for Humanity. Drop off your coat and stay a little while for some community and friendship. It is small but significant acts like this that can help push back the fear and hate.​
> (Megan Leslie - Facebook)





BigDL said:


> Where is that like button when you need one?


So, I ask you both.

What do you think would happen if the sitution were reversed and the refugees were Christians fleeing into a Muslim country? Either of you want to hazard a guess? C'mon boys, be honest.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> So, I ask you both.
> 
> What do you think would happen if the sitution were reversed and the refugees were Christians fleeing into a Muslim country? Either of you want to hazard a guess? C'mon boys, be honest.


Canada is effectively a secular country. Why are you now suggesting it is not? Is this a Dog Whistle thing?


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> What do you think would happen if the sitution were reversed and the refugees were Christians fleeing into a Muslim country? Either of you want to hazard a guess? C'mon boys, be honest.


So... we should only be as 'good' as the worst? Not very Christian of you.


----------



## Vandave

I think the better analogy is what would the left do if 100,000 Texas Republicans came fleeing to Canada after a Hillary victory?


----------



## screature

*Tgif*

Let us just take a break for while and have a pint or two and we will probably feel much better in the morning. 

Interestingly I cannot call this post TGIF. It always resorts to Tgif, I wonder why that is?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Let us just take a break for while and have a pint or two and we will probably feel much better in the morning.
> 
> Interestingly I cannot call this post TGIF. It always resorts to Tgif, I wonder why that is?


Good idea!


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> I think the better analogy is what would the left do if 100,000 Texas Republicans came fleeing to Canada after a Hillary victory?


You've written off all Republican candidates all ready?  But seriously this is the Canadian Political Thread.


----------



## FeXL

There are one & the same. I posted the link, gave you the quotes & yet you still deny.



fjnmusic said:


> I fully expect the NDP federally to not do as well as the Alberta NDP, because *they are a different organization*...


FFS. They have not. They were in the right place at the right time. In clear conscience, there was simply no one else to vote for. In addition, the ripples generated from their inability to control their socialist spending are already being felt & sending them down the road.



fjnmusic said:


> But the NDP have made huge inroads in Alberta


Alberta may not be PC country anymore but Alberta is still largely conservative politically. Give them a stable, conservative party to vote for & it's Hey, Hey, Goodbye to the dippers.



fjnmusic said:


> Alberta is just not PC country anymore


----------



## FeXL

Duplicate post.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> Interestingly I cannot call this post TGIF. It always resorts to Tgif, I wonder why that is?


Because of a change made some time ago to stop idiots from making all capital posts. You can do all caps (like ROTFLMAO) but there must be something else lower case in the post.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> I fully expect the NDP federally to not do as well as the Alberta NDP, because they are a different organization


The NDP is one entity, federal and provincial. They are the only major party that does that.



> Unlike most other Canadian parties, the NDP is integrated with its provincial and territorial parties. Membership lists are maintained by the provinces and territories. Being a member of a provincial or territorial section of the NDP includes automatic membership in the federal party. This precludes a person from supporting different parties at the federal and provincial levels.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> The NDP is one entity, federal and provincial. They are the only major party that does that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party



A strange post where you quote me, because I have ever posted that. Disingenuous much?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> A strange post where you quote me, because I have ever posted that. Disingenuous much?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You said exactly that:



fjnmusic said:


> *I fully expect the NDP federally to not do as well as the Alberta NDP, because they are a different organization* and their leader is not nearly as wise or as charismatic. Plus she has blue eyes. Mulcair strikes me as disingenuous. He's not made of the same stuff as Notley. But the NDP have made huge inroads in Alberta, and those ripples will be felt. Alberta is just not PC country anymore, or at least not to the same extent that it was in the last three elections. My point is that the solid Con support of the past is going to slip this time out, probably most noticeably in the urban centers first. We shall see.


Forgetful much?


----------



## Macfury

I used to boast to Americans about Alberta as proud and resolute member province of Canada. They've become the hick country cousins since voting in the NDP hillbillies.



fjnmusic said:


> blag, blaj...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You said exactly that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forgetful much?



That's not the quote that has been been falsely attributed to me. There are two in the post I referenced. Read closer. I am listed at the top of the quote as having said something that I have never posted. Also, I was responding to heavyall's post, Macfury, not yours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I used to boast to Americans about Alberta as proud and resolute member province of Canada. They've become the hick country cousins since voting in the NDP hillbillies.



Ay contrarie. They've been cast as the hick hill-billy cousins in the past, too dumb to understand the science of climate change, or too stubborn to actually do something about it. 

And the misquotes continue. I have no recollection of ever saying "blah, blaj...".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

People are born to be either vassals or individuals, and the solid NDP voter is generally a vassal, who votes to be subjugated--it is their natural state. Unfortunately, they often drag others down to their own state of subjugation.





fjnmusic said:


> Ay contrarie. They've been cast as the hick hill-billy cousins in the past, too dumb to understand the science of climate change, or too stubborn to actually do something about it.
> 
> And the misquotes continue. I have no recollection of ever saying "blah, blaj...".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More jaw dropping disgust from Harper's Cons. 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/op...me-stand-a-bid-for-jewish-vote-330506441.html


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> That's not the quote that has been been falsely attributed to me. There are two in the post I referenced. Read closer. I am listed at the top of the quote as having said something that I have never posted. Also, I was responding to heavyall's post, Macfury, not yours.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, you wrote that exactly and here is the screen shot proof in a reply to me, not heavyall.


----------



## fjnmusic

Some background about Mr. Harper's evangelical origins and how it influences his policy for those who care to know more. 
http://m.thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/09/14/Covert-Evangelism-Stephen-Harper/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> People are born to be either vassals or individuals, and the solid NDP voter is generally a vassal, who votes to be subjugated--it is their natural state. Unfortunately, they often drag others down to their own state of subjugation.



Again, you assume. When have I ever stated that I think I'm going to vote NDP federally? You assume far too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yep, you wrote that exactly and here is the screen shot proof in a reply to me, not heavyall.



That's not the quote I'm referring to, my simple friend. Yes, I'll support that one any day of the week. But there was another, also attributed to me, that I did not write.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

This quote, my near-sighted friends. 









The first quote of me by Heavyall I wrote, no problem. The second quote of me by Heavyall is not something I have ever written And I do not with to have attributed to me. It may be some kind of mistake in formatting that led to me being misquoted, and if so, it would sure be nice if Heavyall could clear up that confusion. But that second quote is not something I wrote or ever intended to write. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

It only looks like that on your phone fjn. On normal-sized screens the attribution is to nobody--just a standard quote notation.




fjnmusic said:


> This quote, my near-sighted friends.
> 
> View attachment 61298
> 
> 
> The first quote of me by Heavyall I wrote, no problem. The second quote of me by Heavyall is not something I have ever written And I do not with to have attributed to me. It may be some kind of mistake in formatting that led to me being misquoted, and if so, it would sure be nice if Heavyall could clear up that confusion. But that second quote is not something I wrote or ever intended to write.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I didn't think you were going to vote NDP federally.



fjnmusic said:


> Again, you assume. When have I ever stated that I think I'm going to vote NDP federally? You assume far too much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I didn't think you were going to vote NDP federally.


Well then we have one thing clear. This is a very bizarre election, truth be told, partly because it runs so long, and partly there are so many side issue emerging that have absolutely nothing to do with running the country or managing the economy moving forward. This statement by no means indicates even a shred of respect for Harper, just so we're clear.


----------



## Macfury

I don't believe that the government manages the economy. It sits on top of it like a monkey on its back, "progressive" style, or gets out of the way.

Some of the "side issues" speak volumes about the candidates.

And no, I did not say you were choosing Harper. You only said that you did not like Mulcair.




fjnmusic said:


> Well then we have one thing clear. This is a very bizarre election, truth be told, partly because it runs so long, and partly there are so many side issue emerging that have absolutely nothing to do with running the country or managing the economy moving forward. This statement by no means indicates even a shred of respect for Harper, just so we're clear.


----------



## FeXL

And CM abuses me for my sources? 



fjnmusic said:


> Some background about Mr. Harper's evangelical origins and how it influences his policy for those who care to know more.


----------



## FeXL

All issues have to do with running the country, from one perspective or another. The economy is simply one of many. You may not consider the niqab issue important. 80% of Canadians do. Obviously well worth discussing &, if it's not a hill worth dying on, why did Mulcair & Justin do so?

And, still looking for a response to my question about how the Liberals did economically during their last recession? Your silence is telling.



fjnmusic said:


> ...running the country or managing the economy moving forward.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> And CM abuses me for my sources?



And exactly what quarrel do you have with the information from this source? Or were you not aware of Mr. Harper's evangelical background?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Hmmmm....










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> And CM abuses me for my sources?


_The Tyee_--the gold standard for left-wing nuttery!


----------



## SINC

Yep.


----------



## rgray




----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> A strange post where you quote me, because I have ever posted that. Disingenuous much?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The quote I attributed to you is what you actually said. The second quote is from Wikipedia, and is not attributed to you.


----------



## rgray

fjnmusic said:


> Some background about Mr. Harper's evangelical origins and how it influences his policy for those who care to know more.
> Stephen Harper's Covert Evangelicalism - TheTyee.ca - Mobile
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Macfury said:


> _The Tyee_--the gold standard for left-wing nuttery!


The question becomes 'who is nuttier - Harpo or the Tyee?' At least the Tyee is not in a position of power......


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> The quote I attributed to you is what you actually said. The second quote is from Wikipedia, and is not attributed to you.



Well it certainly doesn't look that way on my iPad. Go figure. Must be something wrong with the technology, because it couldn't have been anything you did. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Well it certainly doesn't look that way on my iPad. Go figure. Must be something wrong with the technology, because it couldn't have been anything you did.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> View attachment 61361



The quote is properly attributed on my iPad too. Maybe your iPad needs an exorcism.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The quote is properly attributed on my iPad too. Maybe your iPad needs an exorcism.


Tapatalk is a poltergeist.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> The quote is properly attributed on my iPad too. Maybe your iPad needs an exorcism.



Maybe I need some exercise as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Canada is effectively a secular country. Why are you now suggesting it is not? Is this a Dog Whistle thing?


Canada's National Anthem contains the word God so no we are not fundamentally a secular nation. You may not like it but this country was built by people of faith of one form or another and primarily Christian. It is just a fact. It is just a fact that is indisputable.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> So... *we should only be as 'good' as the worst? Not very Christian of you*.


SINC's point is valid IMO because if the situation were reversed Christians would not be accepted as refugees in Muslim countries. I cannot think of one who would be willing to do that.

No he is not saying that IMO. All he is saying is where is there the level playing field....?

It doesn't exist today.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


>





rgray said:


>


More original ideas coming from you rgray....

How about using some of your existing brain matter to actually post in your own words for a change?

I suspect you won't do that because of my criticisms of your posts that are merely re-posts of editorial cartoons and so you will just continue to post political cartoons that support your way of thinking just to spite me. That is your right, but as an educated man I would think you could do better.

Sad to see you slip into this form of posting.

I wish you, your family and friends well.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Canada's National Anthem contains the word God so no we are fundamentally a secular nation. You may not like it but this country was built by people of faith of one form or another and primarily Christian. It is just a fact. It is just a fact that is indisputable.



It is also indisputable that outward public signs of faith in Quebec are disappearing faster than you can say "niqab." Except of course for all those lovely old churches. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> It is also indisputable that outward public signs of faith in Quebec are disappearing faster than you can say "niqab." Except of course for all those lovely old churches.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lmao: You only think that because you do not live and have never lived in QC and have no idea about the lingering biases everywhere except to a lesser degree in Montreal and Quebec City. They are everywhere so long as you are Christian and preferably Catholic.

Once you have lived here for over 30 years you can begin to tell me about the attitudes of the "average" Quebecer.

You are so ignorant on the matter that it is completely laughable and you should shut the f**k up on the matter as you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

You will notice I never talk about what it like to live in Alberta as I have never lived ther., You could well do the same when it comes to Quebec. You simply have no idea, especially as a minority living in Quebec.


----------



## Macfury

He is an expert in both Quebec City and Cuba, having spent several years there one week. He doesn't know how he does it--he just picks it up.



screature said:


> :lmao: That is because you don't live in QC and have no idea about the lingering biases everywhere except in Montreal and Quebec City.
> 
> Once you have lived here for over 30 years you can begin to tell me about the attitudes of the "average" Quebecer.
> 
> You are so ignorant on the matter that it is completely laughable and you should shut the f**k up on the matter as you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> :lmao: That is because you don't live in QC and have no idea about the lingering biases everywhere except in Montreal and Quebec City.
> 
> Once you have lived here for over 30 years you can begin to tell me about the attitudes of the "average" Quebecer.


I honestly don't believe the average Quebecer understands the average Quebecer. The political winds change on a dime for no apparent reason. Quenecers misjudging other Quebecers is half of the history of "national" politics in this country.

edit: Quebec is a lot like Cuba in that way: if you think you really understand it, that means you don't.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More shenanigans in the form of allegations. Time to heave Steve. 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...ions-involving-sen-don-meredith/#.VhGmlVX3aJJ


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper.....


----------



## Macfury

Ha, you had to throw in a name because the cartoon was so badly conceived!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Ha, you had to throw in a name because the cartoon was so badly conceived!


Exactly. Even the cartoonist doesn't seem to understand how he failed at irony.

Skippy is a lost cause... it appears he is quite incapable of logical thinking.


----------



## BigDL

BigDL said:


> Canada is effectively a secular country. Why are you now suggesting it is not? Is this a Dog Whistle thing?





screature said:


> Canada's National Anthem contains the word God so no we are not fundamentally a secular nation. You may not like it but this country was built by people of faith of one form or another and primarily Christian. It is just a fact. It is just a fact that is indisputable.


Please read what I write, I wrote effectively, I never wrote the word "fundamental" or any sort of derivative of the word "fundamental" in the post you quoted. 

Queen Elizibeth II is the Queen of Canada and she is the Head of State for Canada. Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of the Anglican Church. That is the reason I used the word "effectively."


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Please read what I write, I wrote effectively, I never wrote the word "fundamental" or any sort of derivative of the word "fundamental" in the post you quoted.
> 
> Queen Elizibeth II is the Queen of Canada and she is the Head of State for Canada. *Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of the Anglican Church*. That is the reason I used the word "effectively."


I read what you had to say which was wrong, as in your own words "*Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of the Anglican Church*" Since when does the head of state of any country who is also the Head of any given religion constitute being the the head of a secular society?

You're making no sense whatsoever. When you can make a logical post please by all means get back to me.


----------



## SINC

BigDL is here for one reason.. To pretend to participate so he can run back to Magic and continue his twisted dialogue with gt. Sad pair indeed.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> BigDL is here for one reason.. To pretend to participate so he can run back to Magic and continue his twisted dialogue with gt. Sad pair indeed.


Is MacMagic still in existence? Man!


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> BigDL is here for one reason.. To pretend to participate so he can run back to Magic and continue his twisted dialogue with gt. Sad pair indeed.


Good to hear from you old friend, how's things out your way?


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> :lmao: You only think that because you do not live and have never lived in QC and have no idea about the lingering biases everywhere except to a lesser degree in Montreal and Quebec City. They are everywhere so long as you are Christian and preferably Catholic.
> 
> 
> 
> Once you have lived here for over 30 years you can begin to tell me about the attitudes of the "average" Quebecer.
> 
> 
> 
> You are so ignorant on the matter that it is completely laughable and you should shut the f**k up on the matter as you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> You will notice I never talk about what it like to live in Alberta as I have never lived ther., You could well do the same when it comes to Quebec. You simply have no idea, especially as a minority living in Quebec.



What is your problem, Steve? You have a seriously disagreeable personality. I have no desire to converse with you further. Please ignore my posts from now on. Your comments would suggest that not only are you an asshole, but a self-righteous one too. If only we still had moderators.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> I honestly don't believe the average Quebecer understands the average Quebecer. The political winds change on a dime for no apparent reason. Quenecers misjudging other Quebecers is half of the history of "national" politics in this country.
> 
> 
> 
> edit: Quebec is a lot like Cuba in that way: if you think you really understand it, that means you don't.



You're probably right. However, we still get news from Eastern Canada here I Western Canada and the whole issue of head coverings in girls' soccer leagues got quite a bit of coverage. I've been to Quebec for a school trip a couple years back (apparently not long enough to be entitled to an opinion for some people) and I thought it was a lovely place. People are people everywhere, except that most of these people spoke French most of the time. I don't think the separatist element is all that strong anymore, based on what I've seen and read. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> He is an expert in both Quebec City and Cuba, having spent several years there one week. He doesn't know how he does it--he just picks it up.



He can also read your posts. It's rude to talk about someone in the third person when they're still in the room. At least he's been there and tried to experience the culture. It would be nice if you stopped belittling that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

That is the fun of doing it in third person--you were supposed to read the posts! However, I will remember how much this troubles you and refrain from doing it in the future. However, if you do it to anyone else I will go back to it.



fjnmusic said:


> He can also read your posts. It's rude to talk about someone in the third person when they're still in the room. At least he's been there and tried to experience the culture. It would be nice if you stopped belittling that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Brs6Xr9yzOY


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

Pretty damn close. Now who has the momentum?









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Today, it's the Conservatives. However, it's all downward momentum for Red Thom. Alberta's terrible example served a sacrificial purpose at least.



fjnmusic said:


> Pretty damn close. Now who has the momentum?
> View attachment 61417


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Today, it's the Conservatives. However, it's all downward momentum for Red Thom. Alberta's terrible example served a sacrificial purpose at least.



You've again missed the point. The Liberals are winning the momentum game.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Libs are down more than a half point today. The trend line you posted shows the Libs descending and CPC rising.



fjnmusic said:


> You've again missed the point. The Liberals are winning the momentum game.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
> View attachment 61441


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Libs are down more than a half point today. The trend line you posted shows the Libs descending and CPC rising.



Yes, but the Cons are still several pojnts BEHIND the Libs in the national popular vote. The niqab tactic may have just backfired.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Today, it's the Conservatives. However, it's all downward momentum for Red Thom. Alberta's terrible example served a sacrificial purpose at least.


I think most of Mulchairs problems can be directly attributed to hiring neocon advisors. Obviously they have zero interest in seeing him elected and the strategy of making him likeable is an abysmal failure.

Sadly Tom and Elizabeth are the only ones who have it right when it comes to individual rights and freedoms.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I think most of Mulchairs problems can be directly attributed to hiring neocon advisors. Obviously they have zero interest in seeing him elected and the strategy of making him likeable is an abysmal failure.


His niqab stance is killing him in Quebec.



eMacMan said:


> Sadly Tom and Elizabeth are the only ones who have it right when it comes to individual rights and freedoms.


No!


----------



## Macfury

Ahead in seat projections. That's all that counts. 



fjnmusic said:


> Yes, but the Cons are still several pojnts BEHIND the Libs in the national popular vote. The niqab tactic may have just backfired.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

I guess Mulcair isn't aware of this fact:

The Hard Truths for Canada About the Trans-Pacific Partnership | Carlo Dade


----------



## Macfury

Neither is Trudeau.



SINC said:


> I guess Mulcair isn't aware of this fact:
> 
> The Hard Truths for Canada About the Trans-Pacific PartnershipÂ*|Â*Carlo Dade


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another con homophobe -


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Here's to increased jail time for the scum. Mind you they should go after the other cons too. 

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=11418532


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> *What is your problem, Steve? You have a seriously disagreeable personality.* I* have no desire to converse with you further. Please ignore my posts from now on. Your comments would suggest that not only are you an asshole, but a self-righteous one too. If only we still had moderators.
> 
> *
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just don't appreciate/respect the opinions of people who have never lived in this province telling me what is like to live in this province. Capiche? I would never, ever try to tell what it is like to live in Alberta because I have no experience of of it.

Maybe when you have lived in Quebec as a minority your posts would have some validity, until that happens I don't give a rats ass about what you have to say.

My god man you seem weak or fragile... It is just sad. I will not stop replying to your posts because that is just lazy and lacking in intellectual debate. If you can't stand up for yourself and what you have to say/believe then by all means no longer reply to my posts. I will not do the same.

What you have to say is still open ground for me to reply to despite your derision.


----------



## Macfury

The niqab is not a tactic. It is an issue.

And I don't care about the popular vote--just the number of seats.




fjnmusic said:


> Yes, but the Cons are still several pojnts BEHIND the Libs in the national popular vote. The niqab tactic may have just backfired.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The niqab is not a tactic. *It is an issue.*
> 
> And I don't care about the popular vote--just the number of seats.


It is fundamentally. As Quebec, ironically, has shown. 

Funny sometimes that is how it works.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Ahead in seat projections. That's all that counts.



Ten seat spread now between the Cons and the Libs according to the six o'clock news. 123 to 113. Libs are closing in, man. Better prepare yourself. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The niqab is not a tactic. It is an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't care about the popular vote--just the number of seats.



The niqab is not an an issue. It is a tactic. It affects exactly two Canadians. Ever. There are about 35 million of us. It is a non-issue, a red herring, a dead cat if you will. It is a distraction from some many more pertinent issues, and it is based in racism to boot. It's that Shelton Crosby guy's strategy to divide Quebec support away from the NDP. And it works like a charm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Ten seat spread now between the Cons and the Libs according to the six o'clock news. 123 to 113. Libs are closing in, man. *Better prepare yourself. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


For what?

Most of us already knew the results of the election would be an open question. What wisdom do you have to share with us?


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> I just don't appreciate/respect the opinions of people who have never lived in this province telling me what is like to live in this province. Capiche? I would never, ever try to tell what it is like to live in Alberta because I have no experience of of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe when you have lived in Quebec as a minority your posts would have some validity, until that happens I don't give a rats ass about what you have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> My god man you seem weak or fragile... It is just sad. I will not stop replying to your posts because that is just lazy and lacking in intellectual debate. If you can't stand up for yourself and what you have to say/believe then by all means no longer reply to my posts. I will not do the same.
> 
> 
> 
> What you have to say is still open ground for me to reply to despite your derision.



Rubber and glue, mate. You get back what you put out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Con homophobe dumped -

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...6?hootPostID=693b81d70177b00aa8262fd17916668b


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> *The niqab is not an an issue. It is a tactic. *It affects exactly two Canadians. Ever. There are about 35 million of us. It is a non-issue, a red herring, a dead cat if you will. It is a distraction from some many more pertinent issues, and it is based in racism to boot. It's that Shelton Crosby guy's strategy to divide Quebec support away from the NDP. And it works like a charm.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


70% of Canadians agree with the the government's policy. Until you can dispute that with factual data I suggest that you do not try and portray this issue as a non-issue as it is fundamental for the vast majority of Canadians. As per usual arrogantly you seem think that your opinion is always in the majority or at least correct.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> 70% of Canadians agree with the the government's policy. Until you can dispute that with factual data I suggest that you do not try and portray this issue as a non-issue as it is fundamental for the vast majority of Canadians. As per usual arrogantly you seem think that your opinion is always in the majority or at least correct.


Count me among the 70%. Hide your face, get the hell out. Simple as that. And I have yet to find a neigbour or friend who does not feel the very same way. 

It is a simple and one time show of respect for Canadian culture.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> The niqab is not an an issue. It is a tactic. It affects exactly two Canadians. Ever. There are about 35 million of us. It is a non-issue, a red herring, a dead cat if you will. It is a distraction from some many more pertinent issues, and it is based in racism to boot. It's that Shelton Crosby guy's strategy to divide Quebec support away from the NDP. And it works like a charm.


No. To the vast majority of Canadians it's an issue of importance to them. It doesn't matter if no one had asked for to wear niqab, it's still not acceptable to Canadians as a whole for anyone to hide their face in any place where identity or security is an issue, nor under any circumstances where you are pledging allegiance to this country.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Rubber and glue, mate. You get back what you put out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


:lmao: You could do better if you took some time and stopped using Tapatalk.

But you are right, you do reap what you sow... so it seems we deserve each other in some strange way. 

Peace out and have a great evening.


----------



## heavyall

Most of the polls are showing the Conservatives pulling away in first place. Nanos is the only one holding on to the idea that the Liberals are still on top. 

The EKOS polling is the one that is the most interesting:

Stable but Narrowing Conservative Lead as NDP in a Holding Pattern Well Back of Leaders « EKOS Politics










What's interesting there is that EKOS always under-reports CPC support. Going back at least 10 years, whatever EKOS has said that the Conservatives were at, they got 5-6% more, every time.


----------



## Vandave

I think Trudeau is our next PM whether in two weeks or two years. I think the questions swing voters face is do we put up with Harper for a couple more years while Trudeau gets his act and Liberal team together. Harper isn't getting a majority so he'll still be held in check should he get their vote.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Most of the polls are showing the Conservatives pulling away in first place. Nanos is the only one holding on to the idea that the Liberals are still on top.
> 
> The EKOS polling is the one that is the most interesting:
> 
> Stable but Narrowing Conservative Lead as NDP in a Holding Pattern Well Back of Leaders « EKOS Politics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> What's interesting there is that EKOS always under-reports CPC support. Going back at least 10 years, whatever EKOS has said that the Conservatives were at, they got 5-6% more, every time*.


It is interesting, I think it is Graves' way of trying to affect the election by "rallying the troupes" to avoid a Conservative Government.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> *I think Trudeau is our next PM whether in two weeks or two years.* I think the questions swing voters face is do we put up with Harper for a couple more years while Trudeau gets his act and Liberal team together. Harper isn't getting a majority so he'll still be held in check should he get their vote.


I hope that you ae wrong. It could be. Unless Harper wins a majority (which isn't likely) he is done and then that will create a whole different dynamic...

This election is potentially just the beginning of a whole lot of change in Canada that is yet unwritten for the better or for the worse.

Harper is doing what he thinks is best for Canada as I suspect so do Mulcair, Trudeau and May.

The thing to remember is that you do not vote for a PM you vote for an MP. That is just a fact of our electoral system.

That is the reason why I am for the first time since I have been a registered voter I will not vote in this election as I cannot support any of my riding candidates.

If there was a non of the above option I would but seeing as that is not an option I won't.


----------



## Vandave

I don't think Muclair is doing what he thinks is best, while I agree on the others. Muclair has taken too many positions on things in this election that make me think he is a typical political ****bag. i think as the campaign wears on, people are seeing him more and more for what he really is.


----------



## Vandave

For the record, I think Harper is best right now but I want to see a new face in two or three years. If the Conservatives moderate their views on social and crime and punishment issues, they'll probably get my vote next time around. If not, I will vote Trudeau.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> I don't think Muclair is doing what he thinks is best, while I agree on the others. Muclair has taken too many positions on things in this election that make me think he is a typical political ****bag. i think as the campaign wears on, people are seeing him more and more for what he really is.


Agreed. He is the ultimate conniving bastard.


----------



## Macfury

A critical issue and question--do you support the culture of female subjugation in the civic sphere or not?

I'm shocked to see the dippers and Trudeau on the wrong side of that question.



fjnmusic said:


> The niqab is not an an issue. It is a tactic. It affects exactly two Canadians. Ever. There are about 35 million of us. It is a non-issue, a red herring, a dead cat if you will. It is a distraction from some many more pertinent issues, and it is based in racism to boot. It's that Shelton Crosby guy's strategy to divide Quebec support away from the NDP. And it works like a charm.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Well, well, well, would you look at this poll just released:

Conservatives leading nationally while NDP losing ground: poll | CP24.com


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> Well, well, well, would you look at this poll just released:
> 
> Conservatives leading nationally while NDP losing ground: poll | CP24.com


Suddenly Harper seems to be the lessor of three evils. Jimbo will be choking on that poll. Canadians are finally getting it.


----------



## Macfury

Good news! The Mainstreet poll is massive, with a 5,000+-person sample--more than four times Nanos. 



SINC said:


> Well, well, well, would you look at this poll just released:
> 
> Conservatives leading nationally while NDP losing ground: poll | CP24.com


----------



## CubaMark

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> 70% of Canadians agree with the the government's policy. Until you can dispute that with factual data I suggest that you do not try and portray this issue as a non-issue as it is fundamental for the vast majority of Canadians. As per usual arrogantly you seem think that your opinion is always in the majority or at least correct.



The charter of rights and freedoms is not up for debate. It exists to protects the rights of citizens whether the majority agrees or not. Harper's ploy has already failed and the law stands. The niqab is legal at citizenship ceremonies. Always has been. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

The biggest joke is they have to take money from every taxpayer to make that garbage. It's an amazing time to be alive where people are cool with that. There are thousands of Canadians with funnier and more interesting things to say on YouTube and they do it for free.

I think the fair compromise for the CBC is to shut down the TV stuff altogether and just stick to radio. Both sides get half of what they want.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I think Trudeau is our next PM whether in two weeks or two years. I think the questions swing voters face is do we put up with Harper for a couple more years while Trudeau gets his act and Liberal team together. Harper isn't getting a majority so he'll still be held in check should he get their vote.



Vandave gets it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> A critical issue and question--do you support the culture of female subjugation in the civic sphere or not?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm shocked to see the dippers and Trudeau on the wrong side of that question.



To deny the niqab is to take away one woman's right to choose. How do you possibly rationalize that as a good thing? Nobody is forcing her to wear it; she chooses to wear it, much the same way many brides wear a veil at their wedding ceremonies. Have some more CPC koolaid—though to be fair, it was actually Flavor Aid. You could look it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

No, the niqab ban is up for debate, not the charter. Harper has not failed and there is no "law" that stands. Your statement shows a shocking lack of understanding of the issues and processes at work.

Do you still believe this has been heard by the Supreme Court, or has that delusion passed?



fjnmusic said:


> The charter of rights and freedoms is not up for debate. It exists to protects the rights of citizens whether the majority agrees or not. Harper's ploy has already failed and the law stands. The niqab is legal at citizenship ceremonies. Always has been.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Nobody is forcing her to wear it; she chooses to wear it, much the same way many brides wear a veil at their wedding ceremonies.


Like I say, I recall a woman who had a pot of boiling water thrown over her head. She told police not to press charges because she deserved it for defying her husband. Her choice. Nobody forced her to say that.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed. The "College Humor" channel on YouTube is funnier and expresses greater intelligence than this half-baked slop.



Vandave said:


> The biggest joke is they have to take money from every taxpayer to make that garbage. It's an amazing time to be alive where people are cool with that. There are thousands of Canadians with funnier and more interesting things to say on YouTube and they do it for free.
> 
> I think the fair compromise for the CBC is to shut down the TV stuff altogether and just stick to radio. Both sides get half of what they want.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Like I say, I recall a woman who had a pot of boiling water thrown over her head. She told police not to press charges because she deserved it for defying her husband. Her choice. Nobody forced her to say that.



Have you even listened to any interviews with this woman? They are quite available if you only look. You think you know this woman's situation and you don't have a clue. She is not being oppressed except by Stephen Harper and his minions, which apparently includes you as well. 

Also you seem to have no grasp on what the charter of rights and freedoms actually does. It protects the rights of people, particularly minorities, from oppression. Which rights we honour and which we don't is not a matter of public debate. It wouldn't matter if 99% said ban the niqab. Harper has a terrible track record when it comes to legal challenges. He lost with Omar Khadr and he lost with the niqab. He can try again but it won't change anything. Probably doesn't matter much though since he won't be Prime Minister for much longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> It wouldn't matter if 99% said ban the niqab.


Damn right it matters. The Charter should be changed to ban the niqab, a symbol of oppression of women.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Damn right it matters. The Charter should be changed to ban the niqab, a symbol of oppression of women.



Then you clearly do not understand the purpose of the charter, Don. It is there to protect the rights of minorities, among other things. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

The time has come for minorities to conform to Canadian culture and values. The vast majority agree on this issue alone and there are and will be more.


----------



## BigDL

*Stephen Harper's Economic Management At Its Best?*

At least Justin Trudeau say he will take tax money from the rich. 

Mr. Harper? As pictured, Nice Hair Though.

I wonder is this issue going to have any traction in the next two weeks Harper Government Partnered with Industry Group Fighting CRA Over KPMG Case



CBCNews said:


> The Harper government forged a partnership with a major Canadian accounting association, formalizing it as an adviser to the Canada Revenue Agency, at the same time as the group was fighting the CRA in court to shield the files of multimillionaires who had stashed money offshore.
> 
> Revenue Minister Kerry-Lynne Findlay trumpeted the alliance in November 2014 as a "new era of information and collaboration" between the Canada Revenue Agency and Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada.
> 
> CPA Canada represents and lobbies on behalf of most accounting firms in Canada, including KPMG, which the government was pursuing in *court at the time to obtain a list of wealthy clients* enrolled in an Off Shore Tax Sham in the Isle of Man


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Have you even listened to any interviews with this woman? They are quite available if you only look. You think you know this woman's situation and you don't have a clue. She is not being oppressed except by Stephen Harper and his minions, which apparently includes you as well.


It is not about "that woman" and her eloquent reasons for wishing to be dominated by male oppression and subjugation during ceremonies. It is about government making allowances for that subjugation during ceremonies.



fjnmusic said:


> Also you seem to have no grasp on what the charter of rights and freedoms actually does. It protects the rights of people, particularly minorities, from oppression. Which rights we honour and which we don't is not a matter of public debate.


Of course it is a matter for debate. We would only go so far to protect the rights of pedophiles, for example.



fjnmusic said:


> AProbably doesn't matter much though since he won't be Prime Minister for much longer.


Har! You just agreed with Vandave that Harper would win the election!


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> The time has come for minorities to conform to Canadian culture and values. The vast majority agree on this issue alone and there are and will be more.



Again, popular opinion does not get to override charter rights. I would have thought you knew more about this, but apparently the average grade 9 Social Studies student knows more about this than you do. It's about as much of an issue as abolishing the Senate is. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It is not about "that woman" and her eloquent reasons for wishing to be dominated by male oppression and subjugation during ceremonies. It is about government making allowances for that subjugation during ceremonies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is a matter for debate. We would only go so far to protect the rights of pedophiles, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Har! You just agreed with Vandave that Harper would win the election!



Even if he wins the election, it would be with a minority. If there is a minority, there will be great pressure on Harper to step down as leader, since the party will have performed worse than it did in 2011. Hence, either way, unless there is a landslide victory, Harper will not be Prime Minister for much longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Even if he wins the election, it would be with a minority. If there is a minority, there will be great pressure on Harper to step down as leader, since the party will have performed worse than it did in 2011. Hence, either way, unless there is a landslide victory, Harper will not be Prime Minister for much longer.


Yeah, he's kind like Notley in that respect, she won't last either.


----------



## Macfury

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not prescriptive, and therefore subject to cultural norms. I conclude your knowledge of the Charter is probably less than that of a Grade Nine student, not SINC's.

Curious--do you think a Muslim cleric should be required to marry a homosexual couple if they request it?




fjnmusic said:


> Again, popular opinion does not get to override charter rights. I would have thought you knew more about this, but apparently the average grade 9 Social Studies student knows more about this than you do. It's about as much of an issue as abolishing the Senate is. In other words, it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

Am I to understand conservatives are fine with the wealthiest Canadians do not benefit from Harper's Low Tax Plan®. Instead 25 of the richest Canadians enjoy *a NO TAX PLAN* because Conservative's have partnered with the CMA? CRA investigates charities but let the richest go uninvestigated?

​At Least 25 Multi-Millionaire Canadians Used an Offshore "SHAM" Set up by Accounting Firm KPMG, a Document Filed Tuesday in Federal Court Shows.



CBCNews said:


> For more than two years, KPMG has been fighting a court order to provide the list of names of multi-millionaire clients who had used what the CRA has alleged in court documents is a "sham" Isle of Man tax avoidance structure. The court file, which had seen virtually no activity for much of that time, had remained mysteriously stalled.
> 
> Last July, KPMG lawyers told the court they were having confidential discussions with the Department of Justice on behalf of the minister of national revenue to settle the matter out of court.
> 
> Those talks have broken down, according to Mahmud Jamal, a lawyer for KPMG.
> 
> "It has been determined that a hearing will be necessary with respect to this matter," Jamal informed the court in a letter dated Monday and filed Tuesday.


----------



## SINC

^

Maybe try reading the story?



> It has been determined that a hearing will be necessary with respect to this matter," Jamal informed the court in a letter dated Monday and filed Tuesday.


It states quite clearly that the matter has yet to be resolved.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Maybe try reading the story?
> 
> 
> 
> It states quite clearly that the matter has yet to be resolved.


I guess KPMG is a villain for representing its clients to the best of its ability.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I guess KPMG is a villain for representing its clients to the best of its ability.


That and the fact that anything that even mentions Conservative goes against the grain of unions and the Dippers they support.


----------



## BigDL

Those in them Excited States have already convicted KPMG executives, in the middle of the last decade, but in Canada Conservatives are cozying up KPMG and KPMG's trade association CPA. The Conservatives are not prosecuting KPMG, justice delayed is a denial of justice. 



CBCNews said:


> KPMG prosecuted in U.S.
> 
> Michael Hamersley, a former KPMG lawyer turned whistleblower in the U.S., also reviewed the documents filed in court in Canada.
> 
> His testimony helped the Internal Revenue Service convict three KPMG U.S. executives in a different tax shelter scheme in the mid-2000s. In that case, KPMG U.S. also agreed to pay a fine of nearly half a billion dollars.
> 
> The KPMG Canada case "resonates plenty," Hamersley said. "It's exactly the type of behaviour that I saw in the U.S. at the time."
> 
> "When your transaction and the tax results are dependent upon hiding the true facts, you start to cross into potential criminal liability," Hamersley told CBC News.
> 
> KPMG Canada declined to speak with CBC News about the Isle of Man offshore scheme.
> 
> "Professional standards and obligations preclude us from disclosing, responding to, or discussing any matters that involve clients," Kira Froese, KPMG Canada's director of communications, wrote in an email. "It is inappropriate for us to comment on matters that may be before the courts."
> 
> Canada's Department of Justice did not return an email or phone calls by the time of publication asking about the delay in the case.


KPMG tax 'sham' could lead to criminal investigation, experts say - Business - CBC News

Harper's CRA tax hounds were on the trail of charities and called, not for profit Environmentalist organizations terrorist organization.

So I can conclude conservative are fine with tax shams, if the cheats are the rich and super rich.


----------



## SINC

Typical CBC leftie slant, the matter has yet to be resolved, Try waiting to see the result before condemning anyone.


----------



## Vandave

I had a look at the CBC news site yesterday and I wish I took a screenshot. Every single story regarding the Conservatives had a negative slant while every story about the Liberals had a positive slant. Brutal.

Imagine if Fox News Canada was on the public payroll and the outrage you would get from the left.


----------



## Vandave

BigDL said:


> Harper's CRA tax hounds were on the trail of charities and called, not for profit Environmentalist organizations terrorist organization.


I agree with Harper and the CRA on this issue.

You can't operate as a charity when all your efforts and money are spent on political activity and doing absolutely nothing for the environment.

Imagine if the Fraser Institute were a charity...


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Typical CBC leftie slant, the matter has yet to be resolved, Try waiting to see the result before condemning anyone.





Vandave said:


> I had a look at the CBC news site yesterday and I wish I took a screenshot. Every single story regarding the Conservatives had a negative slant while every story about the Liberals had a positive slant. Brutal.
> 
> Imagine if Fox News Canada was on the public payroll and the outrage you would get from the left.





Vandave said:


> I agree with Harper and the CRA on this issue.
> 
> You can't operate as a charity when all your efforts and money are spent on political activity and doing absolutely nothing for the environment.
> 
> Imagine if the Fraser Institute were a charity...


So again, no concern, the filthy rich are *S*crewing the pooch at your expense.

Is Earl Cowan the only conservative concerned about who's cheating on their tax forms?


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yeah, he's kind like Notley in that respect, she won't last either.



Sure, with the big difference that she won a majority government quite handily. Honestly, SINC, I think you may not be thinking this through very well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not prescriptive, and therefore subject to cultural norms. I conclude your knowledge of the Charter is probably less than that of a Grade Nine student, not SINC's.
> 
> 
> 
> Curious--do you think a Muslim cleric should be required to marry a homosexual couple if they request it?



You have no idea what the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is or what it's purpose is. If you did, you wouldn't make such easily refutable statements. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Sure, with the big difference that she won a majority government quite handily. Honestly, SINC, I think you may not be thinking this through very well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You still dont get the majority who voted NDP now regret it. This government will be the shortest lived party in Alberta in 50 years. It IS an accidental government.


----------



## Macfury

I ask you again: does the the Charter of Rights and Freedoms require a Muslim cleric to marry a homosexual couple if they request it?




fjnmusic said:


> You have no idea what the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is or what it's purpose is. If you did, you wouldn't make such easily refutable statements.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> I agree with Harper and the CRA on this issue.
> 
> You can't operate as a charity when all your efforts and money are spent on political activity and doing absolutely nothing for the environment.
> 
> Imagine if the Fraser Institute were a charity...


**ahem**

Believe it or not....

_*Website: Fraser Institute
Charitable Reg. #: 11923 3823 RR0001*_
Charity Intelligence Canada - Fraser Institute​

_*'Why isn't the right-leaning Fraser Institute being audited by the Canada Revenue Agency?'*

That's one of the rallying cries from individuals and organizations that contend that the CRA's current audit of charities is politically motivated.

Last week, the Canadian Press published a list of some of the 52 tax-exempt social groups that are currently being audited to ensure that they aren't breaking any rules. In Canada, organizations registered as charities cannot devote more than 10 per cent of their resources on political activities and cannot be partisan by endorsing particular parties or candidates._
(Yahoo News, 25 July 2014)​
*Fraser Institute Foundation - Quick View*

Registration no.: 895155406RR0001

Designation: Public foundation

Programs and activities: 

Ongoing programs: 

To provide a medium for charitable gifts, donations and bequests. Manage an endowment fund to provide support for the Fraser Institute and other similar organizations whose primary intent is to study and communicate the impact of economic freedom.​
(Canada Revenue Agency)


----------



## Macfury

I think they're exempt because they're just sensible--not partisan.



CubaMark said:


> **ahem**
> 
> Believe it or not....
> 
> _*Website: Fraser Institute
> Charitable Reg. #: 11923 3823 RR0001*_
> Charity Intelligence Canada - Fraser Institute​
> 
> _*'Why isn't the right-leaning Fraser Institute being audited by the Canada Revenue Agency?'*
> 
> That's one of the rallying cries from individuals and organizations that contend that the CRA's current audit of charities is politically motivated.
> 
> Last week, the Canadian Press published a list of some of the 52 tax-exempt social groups that are currently being audited to ensure that they aren't breaking any rules. In Canada, organizations registered as charities cannot devote more than 10 per cent of their resources on political activities and cannot be partisan by endorsing particular parties or candidates._
> (Yahoo News, 25 July 2014)​
> *Fraser Institute Foundation - Quick View*
> 
> Registration no.: 895155406RR0001
> 
> Designation: Public foundation
> 
> Programs and activities:
> 
> Ongoing programs:
> 
> To provide a medium for charitable gifts, donations and bequests. Manage an endowment fund to provide support for the Fraser Institute and other similar organizations whose primary intent is to study and communicate the impact of economic freedom.​
> (Canada Revenue Agency)


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> You still dont get the majority who voted NDP now regret it. This government will be the shortest lived party in Alberta in 50 years. It IS an accidental government.



Got some poll numbers to back you up when you describe the majority who voted NDP that now regret it, or are you just talking out of your arse again? Because I'm certainly not hearing what you're hearing from the people I talk to or the newspapers I read. These folks are no more or less accidental than ANY government Alberta has ever seen. They were elected fair and square.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Is _Frank_ still publishing? Haven't seen it for years. Here's my choice:


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Got some poll numbers to back you up when you describe the majority who voted NDP that now regret it, or are you just talking out of your arse again? Because I'm certainly not hearing what you're hearing from the people I talk to or the newspapers I read. These folks are no more or less accidental than ANY government Alberta has ever seen. They were elected fair and square.


Well Frank, I don't travel in the union crowd but I know that this government's time is limited and it IS accidental.

Here's a few hints for you that have apparently skipped your notice?

https://www.facebook.com/AlbertansagainstNDP

'Albertans Against the NDP' are going on the road again, and you're invited! - The Rebel

Albertans Against the NDP: How and why it began - YouTube

Albertans Against the NDP: "Show us your budget", before federal election - Mashpedia Video Encyclopedia

Locals protest NDP government at Edmonton Rally | DrumhellerMail

Don't Blame Me, I Didn't Vote NDP :: Home

Alberta group to campaign against Toronto NDP candidate Linda McQuaig | News and

Ewart: Alberta elects NDP, let the fear and loathing begin | Calgary Herald

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vote-against-ndp-alberta-agostino-mosca

Morton: Our government has changed, but Albertans haven’t | Calgary Herald


----------



## fjnmusic

These aren't poll numbers so much as links to sites from disgruntled people. So what? There were plenty of disgruntled groups about the PC's and the Wildrose defectors before May 5 as well. These guys have three and a half years to do strayed what they can do. Could be better, could be worse. Could be same ****e, different pile. I would like to see what's up before I pass judgement. Some people are just too quick to crucify.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CubaMark

_Athabaska University Press has made a new book available for free PDF download (hardcover: $37.95):_

*Alberta Oil and the Decline of Democracy in Canada*



Prior to May 2015, the oil-rich jurisdiction of Alberta had, for over four decades, been a one-party state. During that time, the rule of the Progressive Conservatives essentially went unchallenged, with critiques of government policy falling on deaf ears and Alberta ranking behind other provinces in voter turnout. Given the province’s economic reliance on oil revenues, a symbiotic relationship also developed between government and the oil industry. Cross-national studies have detected a correlation between oil-dependent economies and authoritarian rule, a pattern particularly evident in Africa and the Middle East. Alberta Oil and the Decline of Democracy in Canada sets out to test the “oil inhibits democracy” hypothesis in the context of an industrialized nation in the Global North.

In probing the impact of Alberta’s powerful oil lobby on the health of democracy in the province, contributors to the volume engage with an ongoing discussion of the erosion of political liberalism in the West. In addition to examining energy policy and issues of government accountability in Alberta, they explore the ramifications of oil dependence in areas such as Aboriginal rights, environmental policy, labour law, women’s equity, urban social policy, and the arts. If, as they argue, reliance on oil has weakened democratic structures in Alberta, then what of Canada as whole, where the short-term priorities of the oil industry continue to shape federal policy? In Alberta, the New Democratic Party is in a position to reverse the democratic deficit that is presently fuelling political and economic inequality. The findings in this book suggest that, to revitalize democracy, provincial and federal leaders alike must find the courage to curb the influence of the oil industry on governance.

Download PDF​
(AUPress)


----------



## Vandave

Free is still too much money for me. I'll read that book for $500.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> Free is still too much money for me. I'll read that book for $500.


I'll read it for $400, as long as nobody asks me questions about it afterward.


----------



## Macfury

Still waiting for an answer: does the the Charter of Rights and Freedoms require a Muslim cleric to marry a homosexual couple if they request it? You mentioned how clear the Charter was on such matters.



fjnmusic said:


> You have no idea what the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is or what it's purpose is. If you did, you wouldn't make such easily refutable statements.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Still waiting for an answer: does the the Charter of Rights and Freedoms require a Muslim cleric to marry a homosexual couple if they request it? You mentioned how clear the Charter was on such matters.



Sorry, didn't know you'd asked a question. You seem to think you know. Why not just cut to the chase and tell us?

The Charter is designed to protect the rights of individual people, particularly minorities, as well as to protect the rights of specific collective groups, including First Nations and anglophone minorities in Quebec and francophone minorities outside of Quebec. The same charter that protects the rights of the homosexual couple also protects the Muslim cleric, so I really don't know. But this is a far cry from being allowed to wear a veil at a ceremony.


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## fjnmusic

What do you think? Should all immigrants wear First Nations headdresses when they come to this country? I mean, after all, every one of us apart from First Nations people are immigrants. Or is it acceptable for people to wear clothing that reflects the culture they are bringing to Canada? Personally I like the headdresses. 










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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> What do you think? Should all immigrants wear First Nations headdresses when they come to this country? I mean, after all, every one of us apart from First Nations people are immigrants. Or is it acceptable for people to wear clothing that reflects the culture they are bringing to Canada? Personally I like the headdresses.


Nobody is opposing headdresses.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Nobody is opposing headdresses.


That's a lot of feathers. Never know what one might hide under there.

Where's that ConservativeRaceBaitTipLine number again.....?


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> The charter of rights and freedoms is not up for debate. It exists to protects the rights of citizens whether the majority agrees or not. Harper's ploy has already failed and the law stands. The niqab is legal at citizenship ceremonies. Always has been.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Times do change my friend and so do laws except when you have a politically motivated judiciary and then when they don't agree with long standing laws they call them unconstitutional.

if that isn't judicial activism I don't know what is,,,


----------



## Macfury

The point I am making is that the Charter does not specifically guarantee that the niqab can be worn during civic functions any more than you can automatically answer my question. These are not slam dunk issues, with answers expressly provided by the Charter.

It's interesting that you see the Charter as protective primarily of minorities--when it is designed to protect everyone.



fjnmusic said:


> Sorry, didn't know you'd asked a question. You seem to think you know. Why not just cut to the chase and tell us?
> 
> The Charter is designed to protect the rights of individual people, particularly minorities, as well as to protect the rights of specific collective groups, including First Nations and anglophone minorities in Quebec and francophone minorities outside of Quebec. The same charter that protects the rights of the homosexual couple also protects the Muslim cleric, so I really don't know. But this is a far cry from being allowed to wear a veil at a ceremony.


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> Free is still too much money for me. I'll read that book for $500.





MacFury said:


> I'll read it for $400, as long as nobody asks me questions about it afterward.


I understand completely. Wouldn't want any fact-based thinking to interrupt your ideology.


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I understand completely. Wouldn't want any fact-based thinking to interrupt your ideology.


I'm already owed $50 for looking at it--just academic opinion, not fact.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Times do change my friend and so do laws except when you have a politically motivated judiciary and then when they don't agree with long standing laws they call them unconstitutional.
> 
> if that isn't judicial activism I don't know what is,,,


I'm not saying I agree with you buuuuuuuuut...if there are dumb ass activist Supreme Court Justices...well whose fault is it? Please...tell us all who should we blame?

Canada's Supreme Court Wiki


----------



## Macfury

Martin and Chretien...



BigDL said:


> I'm not saying I agree with you buuuuuuuuut...if there are dumb ass activist Supreme Court Justices...well whose fault is it? Please...tell us all who should we blame?
> 
> Canada's Supreme Court Wiki


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The point I am making is that the Charter does not specifically guarantee that the niqab can be worn during civic functions any more than you can automatically answer my question. These are not slam dunk issues, with answers expressly provided by the Charter.
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting that you see the Charter as protective primarily of minorities--when it is designed to protect everyone.



Everyone in general, an minorities in particular. The whole section on collective rights deals specifically with minorities, such as anglophone and francophone rights. That section does not apply to the whole population. In any event, when an interpretation is required, that is what the courts are for, and the court has already ruled in this issue. Harper can take it all the way to the Supreme Court if he likes, assuming he is still Prime Minister, and he has a notorious record of losing every time when he brings issues to the Supreme Court. So as I said before, when it comes to justice, the court will not favor public opinion, particular if that opinion is based on fearmongering and hatred. Read up about Lynton Crosby and you'll find out exactly where this divisive strategy came from. If you're critical about Notley taking advice from people outside of Alberta, then you've really got to be critical about the CPC taking advice from an Australian fearmongering strategist. 


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## fjnmusic

Niqabs of Canada.
http://niqabsofducanada.tumblr.com/post/130656333233/heavily-armed-men-in-niqabs-surround-prime


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## fjnmusic

Fifty years in Canada and now I feel like a second class citizen. Sheema Khan nails it. This is why Harper and the CPC need to go.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...le26691065/?cmpid=rss1&ref=yfp&service=mobile


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Another con MP being investigated for election shenanigans. So what else is new?

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/8261194


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Calandra getting the boot!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

You can't please everyone!



fjnmusic said:


> Fifty years in Canada and now I feel like a second class citizen. Sheema Khan nails it. This is why Harper and the CPC need to go.
> 
> Fifty years in Canada, and now I feel like a second-class citizen - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Harper making sure everyone in Canada knows what a terrorist looks like....*

















(Conservative.ca)


----------



## Vandave

I wonder if we can deport Mucliar back to France.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Harper making sure everyone in Canada knows what a terrorist looks like....*


It looks like Zakaria Amaria referred to in the text.


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## rgray

Vandave said:


> I wonder if we can deport Mucliar back to France.


What the hell do you mean "back to France"????

Mulcair was born in Ottawa!!!!

At least do some minimal research!!!!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mulcair


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Niqabs of Canada.
> Niqabs of/du Canada — Heavily armed men in niqabs surround Prime...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You wouldn't let any of those people dress like that for a citizenship ceremony either. Or to vote, or inside a bank, or on a plane.

The more they protest, the more irretrievably stupid the left in this country shows themselves to be.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> You wouldn't let any of those people dress like that for a citizenship ceremony either. Or to vote, or inside a bank, or on a plane.
> 
> The more they protest, the more irretrievably stupid the left in this country shows themselves to be.


Indeed. they would all be asked to show their faces, just as with the Niqab. No prejudice whatsoever.


----------



## MacGuiver

heavyall said:


> You wouldn't let any of those people dress like that for a citizenship ceremony either. Or to vote, or inside a bank, or on a plane.
> 
> The more they protest, the more irretrievably stupid the left in this country shows themselves to be.


Just renewed my drivers licence and health card and they made me take off my eye glasses for the photo. I can't imagine they'd have allowed me to wear any of the equivalencies this site foolishly has made.


----------



## eMacMan

Vandave said:


> I wonder if we can deport Mucliar back to France.


Note how vaguely the US defines terrorism and how easily they can convict someone with no trial, no lawyer, no presentation of evidence. Essentially they can tell the judge: "Trust us he's a terrorist." Then based on that "conviction" a Canadian citizen born and raised in Canada could be deported to a nation where cannot even speak the language.

Given a change in culture here and stateside a future government could even declare all Jews terrorists and deport them to Israel. After all they are eligible for Israeli citizenship, and under Bill C-24, with a little co-operation soused of the border, all could be banished.

Ironic that a government promoting hatred and fear of Muslims could be paving the way for a Government sponsored act of terrorism against Jews. 

Knowing how some of our members love to distort posts I will make it clear that I do not believe the Harper is planning a pogrom against Jews nor do I believe the puppet masters who handed him Bill C-24 are planning such a pogrom either. 

Nor do I think such a pogrom is any more likely than my dying at the hands of a Muslim Terrorist. Those are pretty low odds as post 9/11 there has been one death in Canada at the hands of a Muslim "terrorist" and that one was entirely too convenient for the Harper agenda.


----------



## Macfury

No. Only people born elsewhere.



eMacMan said:


> Note how vaguely the US defines terrorism and how easily they can convict someone with no trial, no lawyer, no presentation of evidence. Essentially they can tell the judge: "Trust us he's a terrorist." Then based on that "conviction" *a Canadian citizen born and raised in Canada* could be deported to a nation where cannot even speak the language.


----------



## Macfury

He's a dual citizen of Canada and France. He would have to revoke his French citizenship if he were elected PM--however, he wasn't willing to revoke it in advance of the election. He wants Canadians to bet the farm on his candidacy but he has no skin in the game himself--typical NDP philosophy.



rgray said:


> What the hell do you mean "back to France"????
> 
> Mulcair was born in Ottawa!!!!
> 
> At least do some minimal research!!!!
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mulcair


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The tide is changing according to Grenier's amalgamated poll!


----------



## Macfury

That's based on yesterday's Nanos. Today, the Libs lost 0.3 per cent relative to the Conservatives, which will shift it back to them.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> No. Only people born elsewhere.


Did they change that after they passed the bill? The original applied to any dual citizen or any one eligible for citizenship in another nation.

In any case it does not matter. Citizenship should never be revoked. The one exception being that the applicant was deliberately deceptive in his or her citizenship application and that said deception(s) led to them being granted citizenship when it would otherwise have been denied.

By saying the Charter of Rights does not fully apply to some Canadian citizens, Bill C-24 devalues the citizenship of every Canadian citizen, regardless of their heritage.

OTOH Bill C-24 is very reflective of the Harper attitude towards the rights of Canadians.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You can't please everyone!



Perhaps not, but you can also do your best not to single out particular ethnic groups or divide the country against itself for the sole purpose of trying to win an election. Did you read her account?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> *Harper making sure everyone in Canada knows what a terrorist looks like....*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Conservative.ca)



That's quite the artist's depiction. By coincidence this particular terrorist by fluke random chance just happens to look very Islamic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> That's quite the artist's depiction. By coincidence this particular terrorist by fluke random chance just happens to look very Islamic.


And so he should given the current situation in the middle east and their barbaric acts these days. I wonder how many they beheaded this week?


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Indeed. they would all be asked to show their faces, just as with the Niqab. No prejudice whatsoever.



Don, niqab wearers do show their faces to authorities. In private. Before the ceremony. If they don't, they don't get to take the oath of citizenship. What they don't do is show their faces with everyone else in the room, nor should they need to. Their signature is worth more than you seeing them move their lips during the equivalent of a pledge to the queen. 

Apparently both Mr. Harper and yourself are just prejudiced against Muslims.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> And so he should given the current situation in the middle east and their barbaric acts these days. I wonder how many they beheaded this week?



Terrorists come in many varieties and flavours. Some even look like you and I.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Yep. Nobody should assault her, but I don't really care about her hurt feelings.



fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps not, but you can also do your best not to single out particular ethnic groups or divide the country against itself for the sole purpose of trying to win an election. Did you read her account?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

The guy in the picture is probably Zakaria Amaria, the person mentioned in the text.



fjnmusic said:


> Terrorists come in many varieties and flavours. Some even look like you and I.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

MacGuiver said:


> Just renewed my drivers licence and health card and they made me take off my eye glasses for the photo. I can't imagine they'd have allowed me to wear any of the equivalencies this site foolishly has made.



People do remove their niqabs for driver's license photos. You're grasping at straws here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The guy in the picture is probably Zakaria Amaria, the person mentioned in the text.



Uh-huh. You don't see any targeting of one particular cultural/ethnic group during this election? Hint: think back to Harper's treatment of Omar Khadr, and how Harper has lost the court challenge at every step. Know why he's lost? Because he's wrong, that's why. Harper is a bigot and I'm surprised a smart guy like yourself doesn't see that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The tide is changing according to Grenier's amalgamated poll!
> 
> View attachment 61570



The Liberals have momentum, not to mention an inspiring leader. Say hello to our next Prime Minister He even comes with a sense of humour.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Harper lost the Khadr battle simply because some judges ruled against his government. That doesn't make him wrong or make the judges right. I've watched Trudeau and Mulcair make niqabs an election issue.



fjnmusic said:


> Uh-huh. You don't see any targeting of one particular cultural/ethnic group during this election? Hint: think back to Harper's treatment of Omar Khadr, and how Harper has lost the court challenge at every step. Know why he's lost? Because he's wrong, that's why. Harper is a bigot and I'm surprised a smart guy like yourself doesn't see that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Would be cool if he came with some sense of judgment and intelligence.



fjnmusic said:


> He even comes with a sense of humour.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Harper lost the Khadr battle simply because some judges ruled against his government. That doesn't make him wrong or make the judges right. I've watched Trudeau and Mulcair make niqabs an election issue.



It makes Harper wrong and the judges right. That's what the judicial branch of government is there for. It acts as one kind of check and balance against a tyrannical government. Harper will try again to challenge the charter, assuming he's still Prime Minister in two weeks, and he will fail again. He will fail precisely because he is wrong and the judges are right. He has no understanding of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and apparently he's not alone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Would be cool if he came with some sense of judgment and intelligence.



You underestimate our well-connected friend. He is wiser than the people he is running against. Many have underestimated him and he has really emerged as the guy to beat in this end game of the campaign.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Did they change that after they passed the bill? The original applied to any dual citizen or any one eligible for citizenship in another nation.
> 
> In any case it does not matter. Citizenship should never be revoked. The one exception being that the applicant was deliberately deceptive in his or her citizenship application and that said deception(s) led to them being granted citizenship when it would otherwise have been denied.
> 
> By saying the Charter of Rights does not fully apply to some Canadian citizens, Bill C-24 devalues the citizenship of every Canadian citizen, regardless of their heritage.
> 
> OTOH Bill C-24 is very reflective of the Harper attitude towards the rights of Canadians.



It's so obvious, isn't it eMacMan? It's common sense. Of course, if common sense were really common, everyone would have it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Sure.



fjnmusic said:


> It makes Harper wrong and the judges right. That's what the judicial branch of government is there for. It acts as one kind of check and balance against a tyrannical government. Harper will try again to challenge the charter, assuming he's still Prime Minister in two weeks, and he will fail again. He will fail precisely because he is wrong and the judges are right. He has no understanding of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and apparently he's not alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Sure.



fjnmusic said:


> You underestimate our well-connected friend. He is wiser than the people he is running against. Many have underestimated him and he has really emerged as the guy to beat in this end game of the campaign.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Thankfully, Alberta's folly in electing Notley is driving Mulcair's numbers into the dirt.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Don, niqab wearers do show their faces to authorities. In private. Before the ceremony. If they don't, they don't get to take the oath of citizenship. What they don't do is show their faces with everyone else in the room, nor should they need to. Their signature is worth more than you seeing them move their lips during the equivalent of a pledge to the queen.
> 
> Apparently both Mr. Harper and yourself are just prejudiced against Muslims.


Nope I am prejudiced against people who wear any type of mask to hide their identities. They are not part of a normal society.

Well, maybe not in the case of The Lone Ranger.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Thankfully, Alberta's folly in electing Notley is driving Mulcair's numbers into the dirt.



There again I would disagree with you. Mulcair is digging his own grave because he is not particularly like able and seems to have a sense of entitlement to the PM's office. Notley is very popular and very smart and has a lot of followers in Alberta. If you are unconvinced of this fact, trying counting the number of NDP seats in Alberta again. Parties do not win large majorities (something like 53 of 88 seats) by accident. Both the PC's and the Wildrose must have unforgivably messes up to get that kind of result, which again means the best party won. Notley will inspire; you will see. Canada needs a shift away from the right before they bankrupt us


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Nope I am prejudiced against people who wear any type of mask to hide their identities. They are not part of a normal society.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, maybe not in the case of The Lone Ranger.



The Lone Ranger is cool. As is Zorro. And Batman. And Don Juan DeMarco. And Robin Hood. And...come to think of it, a lot of our heroes wear masks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Notley's approval ratings are plummeting according to recent Mainsteet polling and Wildrose is the most popular party.



fjnmusic said:


> There again I would disagree with you. Mulcair is digging his own grave because he is not particularly like able and seems to have a sense of entitlement to the PM's office. Notley is very popular and very smart and has a lot of followers in Alberta. If you are unconvinced of this fact, trying counting the number of NDP seats in Alberta again. Parties do not win large majorities (something like 53 of 88 seats) by accident. Both the PC's and the Wildrose must have unforgivably messes up to get that kind of result, which again means the best party won. Notley will inspire; you will see. Canada needs a shift away from the right before they bankrupt us
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Notley's approval ratings are plummeting according to recent Mainsteet polling and Wildrose is the most popular party.



If the Wildrose is so great, why didn't they win the last election? Pretty much disgruntled PC's and turncoats, last time I checked. I do like their leader though. Of course, I'm also fan of both MAD magazine and William H. Macey.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Because Wildrose was being punished for defecting. 



fjnmusic said:


> If the Wildrose is so great, why didn't they win the last election? Pretty much disgruntled PC's and turncoats, last time I checked. I do like their leader though. Of course, I'm also fan of both MAD magazine and William H. Macey.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Because Wildrose was being punished for defecting.



So that should tell you something about the integrity of the Wildrose Party, shouldn't it? Just not ready. Nice hair, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

308 now puts the Liberals in the lead with 127 seats, 43 seats away from a majority. Always watch the party with the momentum. The Libs were in third place at the start of the campaign. People love rooting for the underdog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

The poll says they would be elected today.




fjnmusic said:


> So that should tell you something about the integrity of the Wildrose Party, shouldn't it? Just not ready. Nice hair, though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> 308 now puts the Liberals in the lead with 127 seats, 43 seats away from a majority. Always watch the party with the momentum. The Libs were in third place at the start of the campaign. People love rooting for the underdog.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The poll is based largely on Nanos which shows a sharp drop for the Libs today--not reflected in 308.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The poll says they would be elected today.



Too bad for the righties that Prentice broke his gov't's own fixed election date law and called it a year too soon, eh? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The poll is based largely on Nanos which shows a sharp drop for the Libs today--not reflected in 308.



Pick yer poll, name yer poison.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> Too bad for the righties that Prentice broke his gov't's own fixed election date law and called it a year too soon, eh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think fixed election dates are stupid. The current Federal election has been prolonged because of that. I'd rather elections be called on issues, as opposed to predetermined dates.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> I think fixed election dates are stupid. The current Federal election has been prolonged because of that. I'd rather elections be called on issues, as opposed to predetermined dates.


I like fixed better. Too much room for political posturing and calling an election to the disadvantage of other parties.


----------



## Macfury

I think the real story was Danielle Smith's defection. She would have been premiere today if she had resisted a deal with the devil.



fjnmusic said:


> Too bad for the righties that Prentice broke his gov't's own fixed election date law and called it a year too soon, eh?


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I think fixed election dates are stupid. The current Federal election has been prolonged because of that. I'd rather elections be called on issues, as opposed to predetermined dates.



Agreed. We can thank Harper and his cronies for injecting that particular American tradition into the Westminster model used in Canada. A future government could of course recind that law, or violate with impunity as both Harper and Prentice have done. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I think the real story was Danielle Smith's defection. She would have been premiere today if she had resisted a deal with the devil.



She would still be as shallow and incapable of leading today as she was when she defected. She did us all a favour by revealing her cards early.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

You're right, Macfury. ThreeHundredEight.com is a pretty thorough and reliable source on the state of the election campaign after all. Even if the website name is ant thirty seats short. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> She would still be as shallow and incapable of leading....


Couldn't be more ham-handed than Notley.


----------



## Macfury

It is the only game in town for thoughtful seat projections. Thankfully, the Libs slid today and the new seat projections tomorrow will put the CPC back in front.




fjnmusic said:


> You're right, Macfury. ThreeHundredEight.com is a pretty thorough and reliable source on the state of the election campaign after all.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It is the only game in town for thoughtful seat projections. Thankfully, the Libs slid today and the new seat projections tomorrow will put the CPC back in front.



Pics, or it didn't happen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

*Time To Lighten Up . . .*

The two most important events in all of history were the invention of beer and the invention of the wheel.

Beer required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture.

Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented yet, so while our early humans were sitting around waiting for them to be invented, they just stayed close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.

The wheel was invented to get man to the beer.

These two were the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two distinct subgroups:

1. Liberals. 2. Conservatives.

Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to BBQ at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is known as the Conservative movement.

Other men who were less skilled at hunting learned to live off the Conservatives by showing up for the nightly BBQ's and doing the sewing, fetching, and hairdressing. This was the beginning of the Liberal movement.

Some of these liberal men evolved into women. Others became known as girlie-men. Some noteworthy Liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, the invention of group therapy, group hugs, and the concept of democratic voting to decide how to divide the meat and beer that Conservatives provided.

Over the years Conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass for obvious reasons.

Modern Liberals like lite beer (with lime added), but most prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and French food are standard Liberal fare. Another interesting evolutionary side note: many Liberal women have higher testosterone levels than their men.

Most college professors, social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, film makers in Hollywood, teachers, group therapists and community organizers are Liberals. Liberals meddled in our national pastime and invented the designated hitter rule because it wasn't fair to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives drink real beer. They eat red meat and still provide for their women. 

Conservatives are big game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, millwrights, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, engineers, corporate executives, athletes, members of the military, airline pilots, and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.

Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the Liberals remained in Europe when Conservatives were coming to America . They crept in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of trying to get more for nothing.

Here ends today's lesson in world history. It should be noted that a Liberal may have a momentary urge to angrily respond to this post.

A Conservative will simply laugh and be so convinced of the absolute truth of this history that it will be shared immediately to other true believers and to just p!ss off more liberals. 

And there you have it. Let your next action reveal your true self. 

Me? I'm going to have another beer.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Pics, or it didn't happen.


LIis are down 0.3 relative to the CPC, with most Lib votes going to the NDP. LIbs and NDP are vote splitting, so I give the CPC a one- or two-seat lead:


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> It is the only game in town for thoughtful seat projections. Thankfully, the Libs slid today and the new seat projections tomorrow will put the CPC back in front.


The UBC election stock market is another source, but the volume is too low and so it has a large bid/ask spread, so you have to interpret the numbers a little bit.

Sauder School of Business Prediction Markets

I have been playing it for a few elections. Of course I make money. 

I did well in the last BC provincial election. I bought up a bunch of Christy Clark majority government options at 5 to 10 cents on the dollar. I locked in profits before the election even occurred and made even more after. beejacon

The NDP were pegged at 50% probability for getting the most seats at the start of the campaign and they are down under 5% now.

The Conservaties are in the lead right now, but only marginally. I bought a bunch of Liberal options at 30 cents a couple weeks ago because I believed the swing vote would go there way and the NDP would implode.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://youtu.be/hbp6uz1KaVk


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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Dr.G.

Protester rushes stage at Stephen Harper campaign rally - Politics - CBC News

Good to see how quickly the security reacted, and without firearms. In the US, he would have been shot had he gotten that close to Pres. Obama.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> What the hell do you mean "back to France"????
> 
> Mulcair was born in Ottawa!!!!
> 
> At least do some minimal research!!!!
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mulcair


He has dual citizenship. Personally I don't want a person with dual citizenship to be the PM of Canada. No mixed loyalties. Period.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The tide is changing according to Grenier's amalgamated poll!
> 
> View attachment 61570


It all depends on what read and who you want to believe skippy.

Conservatives strongly favoured to win most seats as campaign enters final days


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> He has dual citizenship. Personally I don't want a person with dual citizenship to be the PM of Canada. No mixed loyalties. Period.


This alone should disqualify any person from holding the office of PM in this country.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> The charter of rights and freedoms is not up for debate. It exists to protects the rights of citizens whether the majority agrees or not. Harper's ploy has already failed and the law stands. *The niqab is legal at citizenship ceremonies. Always has been. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As Yogi Berra would say, "It ain't over until is over"... the Supreme Court is the highest court in the land and previous federal court rulings could very well be overturned.

As for your statement, "The niqab is legal at citizenship ceremonies. Always has been." Not true check the record. It is isn't even legal in Egypt for for certain legal proceedings,,, You bleeding hearts make me laugh, you ae willing to sell our traditions and principals down the river so long as you think it will gain you political points.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> This alone should disqualify any person from holding the office of PM in this country.


Agreed.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> This alone should disqualify any person from holding the office of PM in this country.


Perhaps I should be more clear, this alone should disqualify *any person who holds dual citizenship* from holding the office of PM in this country.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Don, niqab wearers do show their faces to authorities. *In private.* Before the ceremony. If they don't, they don't get to take the oath of citizenship. What they don't do is show their faces with everyone else in the room, nor should they need to. Their signature is worth more than you seeing them move their lips during the equivalent of a pledge to the queen.
> 
> Apparently both Mr. Harper and yourself are just prejudiced against Muslims.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So if they can do it in private they should do it at the public declaration, then they should be willing to do it in public which is the one that should matter the most among their new found peers. They can always can continue to wear the niqab in public after that. If they want to be Canadian citizens then let them prove it in public. Why should they hide their face at the most important time in becoming a citizen which is at the public ceremony?


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Perhaps I should be more clear, this alone should disqualify *any person who holds dual citizenship* from holding the office of PM in this country.


Sorry I misread your post the first time around. I completely agree with your first statement.

See my edited post.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

All is good heading into the holiday weekend. Liberal trend continues. have a look at Grenier's amalgamated poll showing more gains. Libs projected to win a 132 seat minority.:clap:

CBC News | Éric Grenier's Poll Tracker

I'm voting today and will be taking the 19th off to get the vote out and defeat our local con.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Terrorists come in many varieties and flavours. Some even look like you and I.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lmao: Nice straw-man attempt at a defence. When has this ever happened in Canada? I will tell you when... Never. Your post is better suited for the American Political Thread.


----------



## Vandave

SINC said:


> This alone should disqualify any person from holding the office of PM in this country.


I think Chretien set the precedent in some respects by preventing Conrad Black from taking a title.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'm voting today and will be taking the 19th off to get the vote out and defeat our local con.


Hope you're not billing your clients for the time.


----------



## Vandave

I'm a dual citizen (British). I don't want to be PM so this doesn't affect me. 

I think it's pretty hard to have divided loyalties with Britain because we're 99% on page with them. France is more like 90%.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> People do remove their niqabs for driver's license photos. You're grasping at straws here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How so? Please do explain. It is in your opinion more important to remove your niqab for a provincial drivers licence that taking the oath of citizenship.

Your logic is convoluted IMO by potential political gain rather than common sense.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> It makes Harper wrong and the judges right. That's what the judicial branch of government is there for. It acts as one kind of check and balance against a tyrannical government. Harper will try again to challenge the charter, assuming he's still Prime Minister in two weeks, and he will fail again. He will fail precisely because he is wrong and the judges are right. He has no understanding of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and apparently he's not alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As I said before "It ain't over until it is over". You seem to think it is a done deal. It isn't. Despite your post your false claims.


----------



## Vandave

screature said:


> How so? Please do explain. It is in your opinion more important to remove your niqab for a provincial drivers licence that taking the oath of citizenship.
> 
> Your logic is convoluted IMO by potential political gain rather than common sense.


I'm tired of people pulling out the racial card on this issue. Are people really claiming that the majority of Canadians are racists?

You can disagree with people putting a bag on their head for a citizenship ceremony and not be racist.

I personally support the right of people to put bags on their head as long as we can identify them. I don't think it's the role of government to tell people what to wear.

Likewise, I don't think it's the role of government to hold a gun to my head to pay for TV shows like Beachcombers. To me, this is far more ridiculous situation.


----------



## SINC

Got to agree with you there. Try taking your citizen oath in a ski mask and see what happens with the presiding judge.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> *I'm tired of people pulling out the racial card on this issue. *Are people really claiming that the majority of Canadians are racists?
> 
> You can disagree with people putting a bag on their head for a citizenship ceremony and not be racist.
> 
> I personally support the right of people to put bags on their head as long as we can identify them. I don't think it's the role of government to tell people what to wear.
> 
> Likewise, I don't think it's the role of government to hold a gun to my head to pay for TV shows like Beachcombers. To me, this is far more ridiculous situation.


The niqab is not required by any religion even in Islam. As I said before even in Egypt the niqab must be removed for certain legal proceedings. These women are making a choice that is personal to them to wear the niqab, cut and dry.

So if I decide I need to wear a balaclava for personal reasons while taking my oath of citizenship should I be allowed to do so? I say no. 

When I make a *PUBLIC *declaration to my new country I should be willing to show my face and then if am I not then maybe I should consider another place in the world where I can do so... Of which I am quite certain you will find few to none.










This issue is being portrayed on the left as a racist/or feminist issue. It is not!!!

None of the men in the picture above would be allowed to wear their balaclavas in a Canadian citizenship ceremony, it is cultural for them, just like the niqab is for women so why should we allow niqabs for women and not balaclavas for men?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Congratulations and welcome to citizenship Zunere. Remember to help heave Steve!


----------



## rgray




----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> So if they can do it in private they should do it at the public declaration, then they should be willing to do it in public which is the one that should matter the most among their new found peers. They can always can continue to wear the niqab in public after that. If they want to be Canadian citizens then let them prove it in public. Why should they hide their face at the most important time in becoming a citizen which is at the public ceremony?


Moot point. She's already been sworn in, niqab and everything. There's even pictures. I can guess who she WON'T be voting for on October 19. :clap:

Zunera Ishaq, who challenged ban on niqab, takes citizenship oath wearing it - Politics - CBC News


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> How so? Please do explain. It is in your opinion more important to remove your niqab for a provincial drivers licence that taking the oath of citizenship.
> 
> Your logic is convoluted IMO by potential political gain rather than common sense.


You take the oath once in your life, for a few moments. Your driver's license you will use constantly for the rest of your life. For which event do you think revealing your identity would be most useful? I'd be more concerned as a police officer that the person behind the wheel is who they say they are.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I'm tired of people pulling out the racial card on this issue. Are people really claiming that the majority of Canadians are racists?
> 
> You can disagree with people putting a bag on their head for a citizenship ceremony and not be racist.
> 
> I personally support the right of people to put bags on their head as long as we can identify them. I don't think it's the role of government to tell people what to wear.
> 
> Likewise, I don't think it's the role of government to hold a gun to my head to pay for TV shows like Beachcombers. To me, this is far more ridiculous situation.


Bruno Gerussi hater! You're racist against Greek-Canadians!


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> As I said before "It ain't over until it is over". You seem to think it is a done deal. It isn't. Despite your post your false claims.


See the article with the pictures from the ceremony. It IS a done deal. You think they're going to strip her of her citizenship over a niqab? Clearly, you do not understand the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms either, not to mention how our legislative, executive and judicial branches of government work together.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Congratulations and welcome to citizenship Zunere. Remember to help heave Steve!
> 
> View attachment 61641


Congratulations, Sheema! :clap:


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It is the only game in town for thoughtful seat projections. Thankfully, the Libs slid today and the new seat projections tomorrow will put the CPC back in front.


You might want to clarify exactly what you mean by "in front."


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Moot point. She's already been sworn in, niqab and everything. There's even pictures. I can guess who she WON'T be voting for on October 19. :clap:
> 
> Zunera Ishaq, who challenged ban on niqab, takes citizenship oath wearing it - Politics - CBC News


At this point in time it is indeed a moot point. She can cast her vote on October 19.

Hopefully going forward anyone who hides their face won't be able to do so... time will tell.

Bleeding hearts like you don't realize we are already involved in the beginnings of WWIII and you and your like will ignorantly welcome it with open arms.

Look around you at what is happening today... your partisanship is blinding you to the reality of the real world outside of the dream like world that you think we live in...

If you do not think that what is going on in the Middle East will not come home to roost in Canada if we sit idly by you are seriously ill informed.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> See the article with the pictures from the ceremony. It IS a done deal. You think they're going to strip her of her citizenship over a niqab? Clearly, you do not understand the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms either, not to mention how our legislative, executive and judicial branches of government work together.


:lmao: Her citizenship will not be revoked but the law could be... try and pay attention. 

I dare say I have a much greater understanding of anything about how our legislative, executive and judicial branches of government work together.

You make me laugh, you really do. Every time you make a post about politics you really do.

Now why don't you go back to your day job as a primary school teacher, something that you probably know a whole about than I do.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> She can cast her vote on October 19..



Yeah. While wearing a niqab, and not having to identify herself at the polls. It's insane.

Nobody will be doing that at any poll I'm at, I can tell you that.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> Yeah. While wearing a niqab, and not having to identify herself at the polls. It's insane.
> 
> Nobody will be doing that at any poll I'm at, I can tell you that.


At the very least someone should go to the poll in a ski mask, stand behind her and demand the right to vote by presenting photo ID and refusing to remove the mask because it is their 'custom' which is all a niquab is, a custom. No religious reason whatsoever.

And for those who keep citing the Charter, please show me where the Charter covers 'customs'?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> At this point in time it is indeed a moot point. She can cast her vote on October 19.
> 
> Hopefully going forward anyone who hides their face won't be able to do so... time will tell.


Alá the Harper negotiations for the TPP and IGA capitulations?

Transparency would be nice but is counter to everything the Harper stands for!


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Alá the Harper negotiations for the TPP and IGA capitulations?
> 
> Transparency would be nice but is counter to everything the Harper stands for!


Still continuing to flog dead horses as per usual... Nothing new here that I can see.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> At the very least someone should go to the poll in a ski mask, stand behind her and demand the right to vote by presenting photo ID and refusing to remove the mask because it is their 'custom' which is all a niquab is, a custom. No religious reason whatsoever.
> 
> And for those who keep citing the Charter, please show me where the Charter covers 'customs'?


David Menzies did something similar the other day. Went in while wearing a full niqab getup, assuming they'd not let him. They didn't bat an eye, and let him vote. Pure insanity.

It's not a Charter right, period. The subject of the charter was not even discussed in the court case about the citizenship ceremony. The issue was every line of the ceremony policy was not codified in law. The argument was since it's not expressly illegal, I therefor must be allowed. It's time to rewrite those laws to close those loopholes.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You might want to clarify exactly what you mean by "in front."


That's odd--the Lib position was down in two polls since the last projection.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> That's odd--the Lib position was down in two polls since the last projection.





Macfury said:


> That's odd--the Lib position was down in two polls since the last projection.


That graph doesn't say what fjn thinks it says either. Look at the points on the graph, CPC's high and low ranges are all bigger than the LPC.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> At this point in time it is indeed a moot point. She can cast her vote on October 19.
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully going forward anyone who hides their face won't be able to do so... time will tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Bleeding hearts like you don't realize we are already involved in the beginnings of WWIII and you and your like will ignorantly welcome it with open arms.
> 
> 
> 
> Look around you at what is happening today... your partisanship is blinding you to the reality of the real world outside of the dream like world that you think we live in...
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not think that what is going on in the Middle East will not come home to roost in Canada if we sit idly by you are seriously ill informed.



Bleeding heart? I'll take that as a compliment, thanks.

What is going on in the Middle East may well come home to roost in Canada, but it won't come via Zunera Ishaq. She is a 29 year old well-educated Canadian woman. Your response has frightening tones of "all those people are the same" built into it. In these parts we refer to that as prejudice—judging someone before you've even met them. In these parts we call that racism, which is exactly the sentiment Mr. Harper has been trying to court based on the advice of his Australian adviser, Lynton Crosby. It's divisive. Mr. Harper is acting like a spoiled child on this matter. He is not leadership material. 


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## fjnmusic

screature said:


> :lmao: Her citizenship will not be revoked but the law could be... try and pay attention.
> 
> 
> 
> I dare say I have a much greater understanding of anything about how our legislative, executive and judicial branches of government work together.
> 
> 
> 
> You make me laugh, you really do. Every time you make a post about politics you really do.
> 
> 
> 
> Now why don't you go back to your day job as a primary school teacher, something that you probably know a whole about than I do.



Secondary school, but why quibble about details? Your condescending attitude speaks volumes. The sad thing is you actually take yourself and your narrow views seriously. 


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Yeah. While wearing a niqab, and not having to identify herself at the polls. It's insane.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody will be doing that at any poll I'm at, I can tell you that.



If I'm not mistaken, she would still have to show her face to the scrutineer, in private, just like she would have to do if she were pulled over for a speeding ticket. The paranoia around here concerning Muslim women here is astounding. 


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> At the very least someone should go to the poll in a ski mask, stand behind her and demand the right to vote by presenting photo ID and refusing to remove the mask because it is their 'custom' which is all a niquab is, a custom. No religious reason whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> And for those who keep citing the Charter, please show me where the Charter covers 'customs'?



Don, just read the damn document. It's a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's part of the Canadian Constitution. It covers the rights of both individuals as well as certain collective groups. You can find it online for free. Why don't you find the part that spells out how someone has the right to discriminate against another individual based on what they are wearing. Some people don't like those wooden shoes. Some don't like yamacas. Too bad. 


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> The paranoia around here concerning Muslim women here is astounding.


Gee, I hadn't noticed any Muslim women here. Anyone else? Did I miss something?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That's odd--the Lib position was down in two polls since the last projection.



So how do you then explain the graph I just posted from today's update on ThreeHundredEight.com? I thought you said something along the lines of Mr. Grenier's site being among the most reliable compilations from several sources. Today's projection shows a noticeable lead for the Liberals in both seats and popular vote. Hmmm. 


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Gee, I hadn't noticed any Muslim women here. Anyone else? Did I miss something?



Ooooh. Got me on a technicality. Any other clever retorts? Have you not noticed the racism you and many others display?


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Everyone loves a clown.
Advance polls: long waits and a protest clown - Montreal - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> If I'm not mistaken, she would still have to show her face to the scrutineer, in private, just like she would have to do if she were pulled over for a speeding ticket. The paranoia around here concerning Muslim women here is astounding.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Bingo! The ceremony is exactly that. The identity confirmation is done ahead of time.


----------



## CubaMark

fjnmusic said:


> If I'm not mistaken, she would still have to show her face to the scrutineer, in private, just like she would have to do if she were pulled over for a speeding ticket.


Exactly. It's a non-issue. 

Sadly, it's a non-issue that plays upon the prejudices of far too many people and which may decide the voting pattern of a large segment of the Canadian population. XX)


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Exactly. It's a non-issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, it's a non-issue that plays upon the prejudices of far too many people and which may decide the voting pattern of a large segment of the Canadian population. XX)



Too be honest, it's that large segment of the Canadian population that has me a lot more concerned than one woman in a niqab. 


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Leafs are losing again. Harper's favourite team.


----------



## SINC

I have spent countless hours in hospital waiting rooms over the past 10 days as my wife had a total knee replacent last Friday. During that time, I chatted with dozens of people of all ages and race in those rooms in Edmonton, while killing time. The election was on the minds of everyone I spoke with. Never in seven decades plus have I ever heard so many Canadians tell me they are disappointed with the choices before them for prime minster of our country. The overwhelming majority of them expressed disappointment in the selection offered them. 

While I did not ask any of them who they would vote for, the most common phrases I heard were these two, "All three of them are scary for various reasons" and the most often heard was, "Perhaps it's better to support the devil we know, than those we do not".

I sense that more Canadians that most feel the same way.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> I have spent countless hours in hospital waiting rooms over the past 10 days as my wife had a total knee replacent last Friday. During that time, I chatted with dozens of people of all ages and race in those rooms in Edmonton, while killing time. The election was on the minds of everyone I spoke with. Never in seven decades plus have I ever heard so many Canadians tell me they are disappointed with the choices before them for prime minster of our country. The overwhelming majority of them expressed disappointment in the selection offered them.
> 
> 
> 
> While I did not ask any of them who they would vote for, the most common phrases I heard were these two, "All three of them are scary for various reasons" and the most often heard was, "Perhaps it's better to support the devil we know, than those we do not".
> 
> 
> 
> I sense that more Canadians that most feel the same way.



Damned by faint praise. 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> If I'm not mistaken, she would still have to show her face to the scrutineer, in private,


You are mistaken.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> You are mistaken.


HeavyAll is correct. Still, it is a non-issue.

_Conservative Leader Stephen Harper noted that the parties voted to bring in a new law requiring visual identification of voters earlier that same year. The prime minister argued the Elections Canada policy ran counter to that.

The Conservatives then brought forward a bill to require niqabs be removed before voting, but it died when the federal election was called in the fall of 2008.

Elections Canada said it hasn't had any complaints about the policy since 2007 and, if lawmakers didn't like it, they could have made changes when the Canada Elections Act was amended last year.

"The CEO issued his instruction regarding electors voting with a face covering in an effort to ensure that the balance between integrity and accessibility is maintained in this rare circumstance," Elections Canada said in a statement Wednesday.

"These rules were tacitly endorsed by Parliamentarians who chose not to legislate on the matter in the 2014 electoral reform bill."_​
The politics of fear, of the "other', playing on the inherent prejudices of people who see any non-white-christian as intimidating or dangerous... it's a sad reflection on Canadian society that this is being given such disproportionate importance.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada's unemployment rate rises to 7.1 per cent as election approaches*

And back in my old stomping grounds: *Nova Scotia unemployment rate up to 8.9%*


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> *Bleeding heart? I'll take that as a compliment, thanks.*
> 
> What is going on in the Middle East may well come home to roost in Canada, *but it won't come via Zunera Ishaq. She is a 29 year old well-educated Canadian woman. Your response has frightening tones of "all those people are the same" built into it. In these parts we refer to that as prejudice—judging someone before you've even met them. In these parts we call that racism, which is exactly the sentiment Mr. Harper has been trying to court based on the advice of his Australian adviser, Lynton Crosby. It's divisive. Mr. Harper is acting like a spoiled child on this matter. He is not leadership material. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





fjnmusic said:


> *Secondary school, but why quibble about details? Your condescending attitude speaks volumes. The sad thing is you actually take yourself and your narrow views seriously. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I thought you would, PET wouldn't, he said let them bleed and I say the same to you...

Blah Blah Blah... it has nothing to do with racism. First of all because Islam is not a race it is a religion. Secondly wearing a niqab is a personal choice not religious. You failed to to address my post about a man wearing a balaclava, it seems you have no argument to defend that thus all I can conclude is that your position is based on a presumed sexual/gender based logic which is completely illogical.

Well at least there is that where students can begin to form their own opinions before you begin to impose yours onto them.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> *Don, just read the damn document. It's a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's part of the Canadian Constitution.* It covers the rights of both individuals as well as certain collective groups. You can find it online for free. Why don't you find the part that spells out how someone has the right to discriminate against another individual based on what they are wearing. Some people don't like those wooden shoes. Some don't like yamacas. Too bad.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Uhm, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a distinctly different document from the Canadian Constitution. I do hope you are not teaching your *secondary* school students that they are one and the same thing.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Uhm, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a distinctly different document from the Canadian Constitution. I do hope you are not teaching your *secondary* school students that they are one and the same thing.


I would have normally replied to screature and addressed you in the third person, fjn--but you say it hurts your feelings. You display a shocking ignorance of basic fact in many matters. You need to research some of your statements before presenting them so boldly. I enjoy conversing with you, so take this as advice, not damnation.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I would have normally replied to screature and addressed you in the third person, fjn--but you say it hurts your feelings. You display a shocking ignorance of basic fact in many matters. You need to research some of your statements before presenting them so boldly. *I enjoy conversing with you, so take this as advice, not damnation.*


As do I MF with fjnmusic. 

I must excuse myself for my belligerent posts of late, even though I believe them to be truthful (as far as I know it). My tone could be turned down a notch or 2 or 3 or maybe even 4...


----------



## fjnmusic

It's simple really; attack the argument, not the person. I try to look past any ignorant comments in the hope that the good person underneath may emerge. Certainly I make errors too, but that is no reason to disparage me or my choice of profession. Yes the Charter is not the same document as the Constitution (formerly the British North America Act, which couldn't have impressed the French very much), but it was drawn up at the same time and passed the same year as an accompanying document to the Constitution. It has the same weight as the amendments do for the U.S. Constitution. Its provisions are legally binding, though they may be challenged in court. With respect to dress code, it is far easier to defend someone's right to wear a particular item of clothing than it would be to defend someone's right to harass another Canadian citizen. 



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## fjnmusic

Let me amend that last comment: does the word "entrenched" mean anything to you? The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is entrenched in the Constitution Act of 1982 and forms the first part of this document. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that sure sounds a lot like it's part of the Constitution to me. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms


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## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Uhm, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a distinctly different document from the Canadian Constitution. I do hope you are not teaching your *secondary* school students that they are one and the same thing.



RE: your assertion that they are not the same document: yer damn right I teach that because it is the truth. Please see the Wikipedia link I provided in the previous post, or any link to the Constitution Act of 1982 you wish to explore. Yes, the Charter is entrenched in the Constitution. 


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Gotta love Harper making news in the Wall Street Journal and the Economist focusing on Muslim bashing.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/harper-office-refugee-intervention-now-canada-election-issue-1444325194

http://www.economist.com/news/ameri...iled-attack?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/veiledattack


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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

"For reasons that are both practical and patriotic," Harper told a Reform Party convention, "we believe Canadians are not prepared to destroy their country in order to accommodate Quebec."
- Steve Harper in 1996 after one of the worst floods in Canadian history

Same old politics of division then, same old politics of division now. Stick a fork in him; Harper's done.

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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Don, just read the damn document. It's a Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


Again, I ask: what is it you think that the niqab issue has to do with the Charter in any way? It was not a component of the recent court case. The Charter was not even referenced.





CubaMark said:


> HeavyAll is correct. Still, it is a non-issue..


It's a non-issue when it doesn't happen, only because so far it hasn't happened much. The fact that people are allowed to vote without identifying themselves is itself a serious issue.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Again, I ask: what is it you think that the niqab issue has to do with the Charter in any way? It was not a component of the recent court case. The Charter was not even referenced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a non-issue when it doesn't happen, only because so far it hasn't happened much. The fact that people are allowed to vote without identifying themselves is itself a serious issue.



They do identify themselves using photo ID as well as their name and address which appears on a voter list most of the time. Is there a great deal of voter fraud in Canadian elections from your point of view? I know there's historically been a concerning amount of misdirection by certain political parties such as the Cons about where the voting stations are located. Recently, for example, residents in the north country were told they need to travel something like 540 km to vote. 

The Charter was not referenced because it did not need to be. It was quite easily established that there are many ways to ascertain someone's identity beyond visual identification. But if the Charter needed to be referenced, I believe it is Section 15 on Equality Rights you are looking for. Here, let me Google that for you. 

http://www.pch.gc.ca/eng/1355929397607/1355929510108


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> They do identify themselves using photo ID as well as their name and address which appears on a voter list most of the time.
> 
> It's SOMEBODY's ID, they aren't doing any due diligence to confirm that it's the ID of the person presenting it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a great deal of voter fraud in Canadian elections from your point of view?
> 
> 
> 
> As a scrutineer, I personally intervene in several attempts at voter fraud every election. That's just at one poll.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Charter was not referenced because it did not need to be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It didn't need to be because it's not a charter issue. The policy and the law were not in sync. The lawsuit was because the woman argued that the law did not require her specifically to take off the niqab, therefor the policy shouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was quite easily established that there are many ways to ascertain someone's identity beyond visual identification.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DNA? Fingerprints?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if the Charter needed to be referenced, I believe it is Section 15 on Equality Rights you are looking for. Here, let me Google that for you.
> 
> Section 15 - Equality Rights - Cultural Diversity and Rights - Canadian Identity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you actually read it? Nothing there that even remotely pertains to this issue.
Click to expand...


----------



## Macfury

Not even close. You simply have not made the connection.



fjnmusic said:


> They do identify themselves using photo ID as well as their name and address which appears on a voter list most of the time. Is there a great deal of voter fraud in Canadian elections from your point of view? I know there's historically been a concerning amount of misdirection by certain political parties such as the Cons about where the voting stations are located. Recently, for example, residents in the north country were told they need to travel something like 540 km to vote.
> 
> The Charter was not referenced because it did not need to be. It was quite easily established that there are many ways to ascertain someone's identity beyond visual identification. But if the Charter needed to be referenced, I believe it is Section 15 on Equality Rights you are looking for. Here, let me Google that for you.
> 
> Section 15 - Equality Rights - Cultural Diversity and Rights - Canadian Identity
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I've been following this and I see your point.The Charter is entrenched in the Constitution Act of 1982 as part of the Constitution. However, the Constitution Act is not the Constitution. Agreed?

If I misunderstood you earlier, I apologize.





fjnmusic said:


> RE: your assertion that they are not the same document: yer damn right I teach that because it is the truth. Please see the Wikipedia link I provided in the previous post, or any link to the Constitution Act of 1982 you wish to explore. Yes, the Charter is entrenched in the Constitution.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Not even close. You simply have not made the connection.



You know what else is not even close? The projected seat count between the Libs and the Cons. The gap actually widened between the leading Libs and the closest competitors when you said it would go the other way, so I'm not sure how much faith to put into your observations about election issues. . Or non-issues for that matter. Interesting. 


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## Macfury

Yes, I said I was surprised given the movement of support between the parties and how it affected prior counts.



fjnmusic said:


> You know what else is not even close? The projected seat count between the Libs and the Cons. The gap actually widened between the leading Libs and the closest competitors when you said it would go the other way, so I'm not sure how much faith to put into your observations about election issues. . Or non-issues for that matter. Interesting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I've been following this and I see your point.The Charter is entrenched in the Constitution Act of 1982 as part of the Constitution. However, the Constitution Act is not the Constitution. Agreed?
> 
> 
> 
> If I misunderstood you earlier, I apologize.



Apology accepted. Actually, the Constitution Act of 1982 is the Constitution of Canada. It replaced the BNA Act of 1867 which requires the consent of England to be altered or changed. That was what all the fuss about "bringing it home" was all about, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is now entrenched in this constitution (it had not been previously), a cause championed by none other than Justin Trudeau's father, Pierre. You can be sure Justin will champion Charter rights as a core value of both Canadians and his party, and I think this is ultimately what will help him and his party win the election. It is the opposite of Mr. Harper's tactic, which is to sow division and bigotry. Canadians are a hopeful people, I'd say, and ultimately prefer a positive message over a negative one, even if the message is a little utopian. Just ask Grim Jim from Alberta, whose face might as well be on milk cartons now. Uncovered, of course.


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yes, I said I was surprised given the movement of support between the parties and how it affected prior counts.



I think the way this end game is playing out, we're going to see even more shifting, and it won't be toward the CPC party. People can be fickle that way. It won't be toward the NDP either. That's what happens when you trust your campaign strategy to an Australian, since everyone knows Australians are criminals. 

Kidding!! At least about the Australians are all criminals part. 


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## Macfury

See, that isn't true. The Constitution actually encompasses documents outside the Constitution Act of 1982.



fjnmusic said:


> Apology accepted. Actually, the Constitution Act of 1982 is the Constitution of Canada. It replaced the BNA Act of 1867 which requires the consent of England to be altered or changed. That was what all the fuss about "bringing it home" was all about, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is now entrenched in this constitution (it had not been previously), a cause championed by none other than Justin Trudeau's father, Pierre. You can be sure Justin will champion Charter rights as a core value of both Canadians and his party, and I think this is ultimately what will help him and his party win the election. It is the opposite of Mr. Harper's tactic, which is to sow division and bigotry. Canadians are a hopeful people, I'd say, and ultimately prefer a positive message over a negative one, even if the message is a little utopian. Just ask Grim Jim from Alberta, whose face might as well be on milk cartons now. Uncovered, of course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

Muslim group calls for burka ban - Canada - CBC News



> The Muslim Canadian Congress said *the garments, which cover the face, have no basis in Islam.*
> 
> The group's spokesperson, Farzana Hassan, said the practice of wearing the burka and niqab is more rooted in Middle Eastern culture than in religious teachings. She added that *there is nothing in the Qur'an that stipulates women must cover their faces*.
> 
> She said the issue is one of public safety.
> 
> "*To cover your face is to conceal your identity,*" she said.
> 
> *"If a government claims to uphold equality between men and women, there is no reason for them to support a practice that marginalizes women."*


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Muslim group calls for burka ban - Canada - CBC News



I'd like to see a ban on tattoos and facial piercings. So? My wish does not supercede someone else's right to have them. Whether it is religious or not, her wish to wear a niqab did not interfere with her ability to be sworn in as a Canadian citizen. And now she can vote, something she could not do as an immigrant. And it affects yours and my life, let see......not at all. Talk about an effective dead cat.


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## Rps

This just in........The Toronto Star has just endorsed Justin Trudeau ....... Boy! Am I surprised by this...............


----------



## Macfury

Settled only for you.



fjnmusic said:


> I'd like to see a ban on tattoos and facial piercings. So? My wish does not supercede someone else's right to have them. Whether it is religious or not, her wish to wear a niqab did not interfere with her ability to be sworn in as a Canadian citizen. And now she can vote, something she could not do as an immigrant. And it affects yours and my life, let see......not at all. Talk about an effective dead cat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> This just in........The Toronto Star has just endorsed Justin Trudeau ....... Boy! Am I surprised by this...............


The poles have just transposed! Hilarious! Endorsements by once-powerful newspapers are so antiquated--and predictable.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The poles have just transposed! Hilarious! Endorsements by once-powerful newspapers are so antiquated--and predictable.



You mean the polls? Or the Poles as a nation? Or perhaps the magnetic North and South Poles? In any event, perhaps Mr. Trudeau is ready after all. Nice hair, too. 


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## Rps

Macfury said:


> The poles have just transposed! Hilarious! Endorsements by once-powerful newspapers are so antiquated--and predictable.


McFury, have you ever known The Star to not support the Liberals?....


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You mean the polls? Or the Poles as a nation? Or perhaps the magnetic North and South Poles? In any event, perhaps Mr. Trudeau is ready after all. Nice hair, too.


The magnetic North and South Poles of course. Wasn't that obvious in context?


----------



## fjnmusic

Now that's interesting. Happy Thanksgiving, all y'all! 









http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/elec...-as-election-enters-holiday-weekend-1.2604318



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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 61729



Don't want no hidden agendas....then again, maybe we don't need to see EVERYTHING.


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## Macfury

Nanos is no longer the only game in town as other polls go daily. Angus Reid shows CPC up by two. 

I talked with Nik Nanos once--nice guy.

NDP support is dying primarily in Quebec, but vote splitting reigns supreme in the rest of the country.



fjnmusic said:


> Now that's interesting. Happy Thanksgiving, all y'all!


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> McFury, have you ever known The Star to not support the Liberals?....


No. That's why I am having fun with it.


----------



## heavyall

Rps said:


> This just in........The Toronto Star has just endorsed Justin Trudeau ....... Boy! Am I surprised by this...............


That's good news. Whomever they endorse generally loses pretty badly.


----------



## Macfury

This astute quote from Andrew Coyne made me laugh:



> "The Trudeauvian gaffe generally involves a quite deliberate statement, presented not flippantly or off-hand but in a determined effort to sound provocative or profound. If they instead strike the listener as ill-judged, it is because he seems to have invested so little actual thought in them. It is in the gulf between his intellectual reach and grasp that his reputation as a ninny has been earned."


----------



## SINC

Covering the face has nothing to do with Islam and Canadians, not the niqab are the victims. Muslim leader: a non Canadian has changed Canadian law; niqab is Islamic Fascist symbol. CTV News Culture Shock.

See post by Darryl McKinnon in this thread and watch the video. Sorry, I could not find the link on the CTV site.

https://www.facebook.com/search/str/ctv news the niqab/keywords_top


----------



## fjnmusic

Speaking of photo identification.










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## BigDL

SINC said:


> Covering the face has nothing to do with Islam and Canadians, not the niqab are the victims. Muslim leader: a non Canadian has changed Canadian law; niqab is Islamic Fascist symbol. CTV News Culture Shock.
> 
> See post by Darryl McKinnon in this thread and watch the video. Sorry, I could not find the link on the CTV site.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/search/str/ctv news the niqab/keywords_top


What an ignorant statement: so please provide your evidence to support "a non Canadian has changed Canadian law;"

I) Please provide the statute, i.e., the name of the law, the section of that law;

2) Zunera Ishaq takes Citizenship Oath and is a Canadian citizen, much to your chagrin, no doubt.

Thanking you in advance for your efforts find any law contravened.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> Covering the face has nothing to do with Islam and Canadians, not the niqab are the victims. Muslim leader: a non Canadian has changed Canadian law; niqab is Islamic Fascist symbol. CTV News Culture Shock.
> 
> See post by Darryl McKinnon in this thread and watch the video. Sorry, I could not find the link on the CTV site.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/search/str/ctv news the niqab/keywords_top


Here it is:

CTV News Channel: Culture Shock | CTV News


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> CTV News Channel: Culture Shock | CTV News



"90% of Muslims would never ever talk to someone who wears the niqab." Interesting. This man, despite his credentials, does not strike me as persuasive. Personally, I don't think it needs to be religious, and if someone wants to take the oath of citizenship wearing a bellaclava or with their face covered in tattoos and piercings, I really couldn't care less. I am more concerned if someone were to, say, walk up to my front door wearing a mask, somewhere where security is not, and demanding that I give them something or they will threaten to egg my house or worse. That's right: Halloween scares the ****e out of me and I don't think I'm alone in this opinion. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

And lest anyone would want to make the argument that tattoos are not disguising one's face the same way as a niqab does, I would agree. They can disguise it more. And for those who say that's not a problem, they can get their photo ID taken with their tattoos, I would say watch this rather brilliant video. 

http://youtu.be/9mIBKifOOQQ


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> This man, despite his credentials, does not strike me as persuasive.


That tells me a lot about your cognitive abilities. Several Muslim groups in Canada have condemned the niqab as having no basis in Islam. They've very clearly and consistently pointed out that it is radical muslim groups that are behind this, and that the purpose is not "equality", it's entrenching sharia law into western culture through the back door. 

THEIR OWN PEOPLE are warning us about what's happening, and your response is ""Meh. I'm not convinced".


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> That tells me a lot about your cognitive abilities. Several Muslim groups in Canada have condemned the niqab as having no basis in Islam. They've very clearly and consistently pointed out that it is radical muslim groups that are behind this, and that the purpose is not "equality", it's entrenching sharia law into western culture through the back door.
> 
> THEIR OWN PEOPLE are warning us about what's happening, and your response is ""Meh. I'm not convinced".


 Saudi Arabia condones and advocates the Niqab and Stephen Harper condones and advocates selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, thereby keeping the Saudi Royals in charge, you condone and advocate for Stephan Harper, does it not follow, you therefore condone and advocate the position of Saudi Arabia to condone and advocate the Niqab?


----------



## Macfury

Not any more than my support for Harper indicates support for that ratty stretch of rail track in New Brunswick that the feds are fixing.



BigDL said:


> Saudi Arabia condones and advocates the Niqab and Stephen Harper condones and advocates selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, thereby keeping the Saudi Royals in charge, you condone and advocate for Stephan Harper, does it not follow, you therefore condone and advocate the position of Saudi Arabia to condone and advocate the Niqab?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Not any more than my support for Harper indicates support for that ratty stretch of rail track in New Brunswick that the feds are fixing.


You seem to fail to understand the corporate welfare program to maintain the railway. CN got the money for the upgrades from two levels of Government to run CN Trains over CN's track. 

Is it willful or just not that important to you?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> What an ignorant statement: so please provide your evidence to support "a non Canadian has changed Canadian law;"
> 
> I) Please provide the statute, i.e., the name of the law, the section of that law;
> 
> 2) Zunera Ishaq takes Citizenship Oath and is a Canadian citizen, much to your chagrin, no doubt.
> 
> Thanking you in advance for your efforts find any law contravened.


Typical SD response, That was not my statement. I took that from what the Muslim leader in that CTV video stated and he used those exact words, not me.

So bugger off and stop being a jerk. Instead try watching and understanding the video to LEARN what Muslims themselves think. Don't like it, contact the CTV network, but don't attack me, although I am not sure if you can comprehend that simple request.


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> Saudi Arabia condones and advocates the Niqab and Stephen *Harper condones and advocates selling weapons to Saudi Arabia,* thereby keeping the Saudi Royals in charge, you condone and advocate for Stephan Harper, does it not follow, you therefore condone and advocate the position of Saudi Arabia to condone and advocate the Niqab?


There were no "weapons" sold to Saudi Arabia, and Harper was not involved in the deal. A private Canadian company won a tender to provide transport vehicles. That's it.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Typical SD response, That was not my statement. I took that from what the Muslim leader in that CTV video stated and he used those exact words, not me.
> 
> So bugger off and stop being a jerk. Instead try watching and understanding the video to LEARN what Muslims themselves think. Don't like it, contact the CTV network, but don't attack me, although I am not sure if you can comprehend that simple request.


Like yours it is only one person's view.

You supported the view and promulgated it. I wanted people to know facts. From your response and what was lacking in your response, we may deduce there is, in fact, no law. 

If people make up $#¡† and hide behind "it's my/his opinion" you got the freedom to do so. I know from long experience here some folks can't differentiate between facts and opinions.

When a person calls shenanigans, on your 'fact(s)', just admit all you got is an opinion. 

I shall remain here and express my view as I see fit. If you or other posters do not like it, tough nuggys. 

Here is a recent comment I received: "So bugger off and stop being a jerk" you may wish to abide by such a view, as opined, if you accord any value to the opinion's righteousness.


----------



## SINC

I offered an opnion piece I found from CTV news that even Muslims do not agree with wearing the niqab. That simple. Many here offer links to help educate those who perhaps missed the particular opinion others hold and in this case it is an important one. And yes, your childish personal attacks speak more about who and what YOU are than any one thing I have offered. Carry on being a jerk, it's fine by me.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I offered an opnion piece I found from CTV news that even Muslims do not agree with wearing the niqab. That simple. Many here offer links to help educate those who perhaps missed the particular opinion others hold and in this case it is an important one. And yes, your childish personal attacks speak more about who and what YOU are than any one thing I have offered. Carry on being a jerk, it's fine by me.


What was the personal attack that offended you?


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> That tells me a lot about your cognitive abilities. Several Muslim groups in Canada have condemned the niqab as having no basis in Islam. They've very clearly and consistently pointed out that it is radical muslim groups that are behind this, and that the purpose is not "equality", it's entrenching sharia law into western culture through the back door.
> 
> 
> 
> THEIR OWN PEOPLE are warning us about what's happening, and your response is ""Meh. I'm not convinced".



This tells me a lot about your misogynism. You fail to understand that you are still quoting men about women's choices. Her family didn't want her to wear a niqab; her father didn't want her to wear a niqab. She chose to wear a niqab, and constitutionally, she has that right. So does everyone else. Your rants are just as paranoid as those of Stephen Harper, soon-to-be former Prime Minister of Canada. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Like yours it is only one person's view.
> 
> 
> 
> You supported the view and promulgated it. I wanted people to know facts. From your response and what was lacking in your response, we may deduce there is, in fact, no law.
> 
> 
> 
> If people make up $#¡† and hide behind "it's my/his opinion" you got the freedom to do so. I know from long experience here some folks can't differentiate between facts and opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> When a person calls shenanigans, on your 'fact(s)', just admit all you got is an opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> I shall remain here and express my view as I see fit. If you or other posters do not like it, tough nuggys.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a recent comment I received: "So bugger off and stop being a jerk" you may wish to abide by such a view, as opined, if you accord any value to the opinion's righteousness.



Well put. For example: the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not part of Canada's Constitution (opinion), or the Constitution Act of 1982 is not Canada's Constitution (also opinion). Here's another example: the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is entrenched in Canada's Constitution, known as the Constitution Act of 1982 (fact). 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Her family didn't want her to wear a niqab; her father didn't want her to wear a niqab.


You probably believe in the tooth fairy too.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> There were no "weapons" sold to Saudi Arabia, and Harper was not involved in the deal. A private Canadian company won a tender to provide transport vehicles. That's it.


*Who's being naïve now?*

_defence industry sources say the deal is for the latest version of the light armoured vehicle made by General Dynamics Land Systems – Canada, in London. The Canadian Army is also purchasing the same 25-ton vehicle, which is equipped with a 25mm automatic cannon.

Saudi Arabia will acquire different versions of the vehicle, sources say.

Jane’s, the defence publication in the United Kingdom, noted Saudi Arabia already has a fleet of more than 1,400 light armoured vehicles purchased from General Dynamics Land Systems – Canada. They were produced in a variety of versions: some are designed as armoured ambulances while others are outfitted with 25mm cannons or a 90mm gun. Other versions carry 120mm mortars.

“Ten billion dollars is not an order for cargo trucks; it’s clearly an order for armored vehicles meant for combat,” James Hasik, a senior fellow with the Brent Scowcroft Center on International Security in the U.S., noted in an analysis of the deal._
(Ottawa Citizen)​
*This is military equipment, not urban accordion buses!*


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> This tells me a lot about your misogynism. You fail to understand that you are still quoting men about women's choices.


I quoted one woman, and one man. Female Muslim leaders in Canada have been calling for a burka and niqab ban for years.

To refresh your memory:



> The group's spokesperson, Farzana Hassan, said the practice of wearing the burka and niqab is more rooted in Middle Eastern culture than in religious teachings. She added that there is nothing in the Qur'an that stipulates women must cover their faces.
> 
> She said the issue is one of public safety.
> 
> "To cover your face is to conceal your identity," she said.
> 
> "If a government claims to uphold equality between men and women, there is no reason for them to support a practice that marginalizes women."


Muslim group calls for burka ban - Canada - CBC News


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> *Who's being naïve now?*


Saudi Arabia only ordered the vehicles, no arms of any kind from Canada.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Saudi Arabia only ordered the vehicles, no arms of any kind from Canada.


Light Armoured Vehicles.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> RE: your assertion that they are not the same document: yer damn right I teach that because it is the truth. Please see the Wikipedia link I provided in the previous post, or any link to the Constitution Act of 1982 you wish to explore. Yes, the Charter is entrenched in the Constitution.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


They are separate and distinct although intertwined thanks to PET.

Our Constitution is still largely based on the BNA, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was formed well after that but yes it was entrenched in the other since PET but they are still not the same thing as you would want to portray it. The Constitution comes first and then the Rights and Freedom Act.

In other words Constitutionality is the first question and then after that comes Rights and Freedoms. Capiche? 

They are NOT the same thing. If they were why would we need to have different terms for them? You don't seem to have a very good grasp on basic law and logic.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> You probably believe in the tooth fairy too.


Well I believe her account over yours.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> They are separate and distinct although intertwined thanks to PET.
> 
> Our Constitution is still largely based on the BNA, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was formed well after that but yes it was entrenched in the other since PET but they are still not the same thing as you would want to portray it. The Constitution comes first and then the Rights and Freedom Act.
> 
> In other words Constitutionality is the first question and then after that comes Rights and Freedoms. Capiche?
> 
> They are NOT the same thing. If they were why would we need to have different terms for them? You don't seem to have a very good grasp on basic law and logic.


Wrong again. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms forms the first section of the Constitution Act of 1982. I don't understand why you fail to grasp this concept. I hope it was your own lack of study and not your teachers that taught you wrong.

Please read it for yourself if you don't believe me. 

Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Well I believe her account over yours.


Then you're pretty gullible.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Then you're pretty gullible.



So tell me, if you're not a misogynist, why do you reject the woman's own personal account yet accept the assessment of a man who does not even know her? I can buy the argument that she's being stubborn rather than religious, but even so, that is still her right. Taking away her right to choose would be oppressing women, not the other way around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

One woman's account of why she now chooses not to wear the niqab after seven years. Again, it's about personal choice. 

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...-womans-burden-for-the-love-of-god/ar-AAfipu4


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## SINC

BigDL said:


> What was the personal attack that offended you?





BigDL said:


> *What an ignorant statement: so please provide your evidence* to support "a non Canadian has changed Canadian law;".


The words posted were taken from the video in the hopes of drawing members into the contents of the video to judge for themselves a Muslim leader's take on the niqab. They were not my words nor my claim, but you call me ignorant and demand I produce proof? I am not a mind reader, nor do I know what law the speaker on the CTV program referred to, it was up to the interviewer to ask him to defend the statement. Asking for the impossible of me is ridiculous and designed to be nothing more than SD.


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## SINC

.


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## eMacMan

The Niqab is of course very much a diversion issue. The intent to distract voters attention away from the Harpers abysmal record in other areas. 

Things like: Peremature tax cuts for rich buds and corps, which resulted in needlessly adding to the national debt. Involving Canadian troops in Iraq, Libya, and Syria. The delayed withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. Signing the FATCA-IGA, thereby putting the life savings of well over a million Canadians at risk. The second class citizenship act. The multiple domestic spying acts....

If the Harpocons were campaigning against female *and* male genital mutilation, and the other parties were all for it, then it would be a worthy campaign issue. As it is, all the Niqab issue shows is that the conmen offer Canadians only fear and hatred.


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## Macfury

Haper already campaigned against genital mutilation--and there are laws on the books against it.


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## BigDL

SINC said:


> Covering the face has nothing to do with Islam and Canadians, not the niqab are the victims. Muslim leader: a non Canadian has changed Canadian law; niqab is Islamic Fascist symbol. CTV News Culture Shock.
> 
> See post by Darryl McKinnon in this thread and watch the video. Sorry, I could not find the link on the CTV site.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/search/str/ctv news the niqab/keywords_top


Well we see ...a Muslim leader: a non Canadian changed Canadian Law...
I said "what an ignorant statement:" I called the statement ignorant as the statement is devoid of facts and the truth of the matter. The statement is not yours and besides you are a fully formed person and not merely a statement.



BigDL said:


> What an ignorant statement: so please provide your evidence to support "a non Canadian has changed Canadian law;"
> 
> I) Please provide the statute, i.e., the name of the law, the section of that law;
> 
> 2) Zunera Ishaq takes Citizenship Oath and is a Canadian citizen, much to your chagrin, no doubt.
> 
> Thanking you in advance for your efforts find any law contravened.


I then challenged you to present some facts i.e. a law that was changed. My hope was you might be educated and acquainted with the facts. As I knew there would not be a Law found "I thanked you" in advance for your efforts for attempting to find a Law (that was never there.)



SINC said:


> The words posted were taken from the video in the hopes of drawing members into the contents of the video to judge for themselves a Muslim leader's take on the niqab. They were not my words nor my claim, but you call me ignorant and demand I produce proof? I am not a mind reader, nor do I know what law the speaker on the CTV program referred to, it was up to the interviewer to ask him to defend the statement. Asking for the impossible of me is ridiculous and designed to be nothing more than SD.


I asked that you educate yourself and become familiar with the facts of the case by looking for information. The person (and I use quotes here) "that broke the Law" (end quotes) was Jason Kenny. Jason Kenny exceeded his Ministerial authority by invoking the ban on Niqab. The federal court has said so twice.

Drawing attention to an ignorant statement (you know the ones devoid of facts) is not exactly a public service. I called "What an ignorant statement:" as the statement, as you admit is not your statement, how is it related to you?

The other issue I have is the video has information that is not correct. How much of the opinions expressed by the "Muslim leader" are not correct. If a person agree with an opinion, fine that's his/her choice. If information is presented as fact or from a knowledgable source I shall challenge the information. If that upsets you, sorry old friend.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Haper already campaigned against genital mutilation--and there are laws on the books against it.


The point was that the Niqab is a diversion not an issue. The intent is to divert voters attention away from the Harper's failures.

Things like: Peremature tax cuts for rich buds and corps, which resulted in needlessly adding to the national debt. Involving Canadian armed forces in Iraq, Libya, and Syria. The delayed withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. Signing the FATCA-IGA, thereby putting the life savings of well over a million Canadians at risk. The second class citizenship act. The multiple domestic spying acts....


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Well we see ...a Muslim leader: a non Canadian changed Canadian Law...
> I said "what an ignorant statement:" I called the statement ignorant as the statement is devoid of facts and the truth of the matter. The statement is not yours and besides you are a fully formed person and not merely a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> I then challenged you to present some facts i.e. a law that was changed. My hope was you might be educated and acquainted with the facts. As I knew there would not be a Law found "I thanked you" in advance for your efforts for attempting to find a Law (that was never there.)
> 
> 
> 
> I asked that you educate yourself and become familiar with the facts of the case by looking for information. The person (and I use quotes here) "that broke the Law" (end quotes) was Jason Kenny. Jason Kenny exceeded his Ministerial authority by invoking the ban on Niqab. The federal court has said so twice.
> 
> Drawing attention to an ignorant statement (you know the ones devoid of facts) is not exactly a public service. I called "What an ignorant statement:" as the statement, as you admit is not your statement, how is it related to you?
> 
> The other issue I have is the video has information that is not correct. How much of the opinions expressed by the "Muslim leader" are not correct. If a person agree with an opinion, fine that's his/her choice. If information is presented as fact or from a knowledgable source I shall challenge the information. If that upsets you, sorry old friend.


I cannot help a thick man to understand. Your questions and issues are with CTV Culture Shock. Take it up with them.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> I cannot help a thick man to understand. Your questions and issues are with CTV Culture Shock. Take it up with them.



A "thick man"? How do you know what BigDL looks like? 


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## Macfury

BigDL has already shared the origins of his screen name.



fjnmusic said:


> A "thick man"? How do you know what BigDL looks like?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Most of the items in that iceberg shouldn't concern the federal government at all.



rgray said:


>


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> I cannot help a thick man to understand...


 I can agree with you and on your infirmities, old pal.


----------



## fjnmusic

The Nanos results: looks kind of like a DNA strand unraveling, don't it?










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## skippythebushkangaroo

fjnmusic said:


> The Nanos results: looks kind of like a DNA strand unraveling, don't it?
> 
> View attachment 61841
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Nice looking graph. By the 19th the Cons could be in third place. Trudeau can break into a French Canadian accent and address Harper as the leader of the "turd" party.


----------



## Macfury

Hot off the press from EKOS:


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Brace yourselves for dirt from the Cons. One week to go. 

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/t...n-nonsense-niqab-barbaric-practices-1.3266763


----------



## Macfury

You didn't read the link, did you?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Brace yourselves for dirt from the Cons. One week to go.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/t...n-nonsense-niqab-barbaric-practices-1.3266763


----------



## Vandave

I think the article needs more cartoons.


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## Macfury

Saw that one in _The Tyee_!


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## CubaMark




----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Brace yourselves for dirt from the Cons. One week to go.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/t...n-nonsense-niqab-barbaric-practices-1.3266763


Ah yes, Terry Milewski, the most biased left wing reporter in recent Canadian history. And on the CBC to boot. Come to think of it the CBC needs some boot itself.


----------



## eMacMan

A red-neck friend sent along the "official" Harper campaign song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ahVfJGqjXs


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Remember....


Yeah, I remember when you misrepresented that issue a few months back. Your inability to research the issue was AWESOME!


----------



## SINC

Nothing new, but for the record . . .

National Post View: Harper was right on guns


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## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Yeah, I remember when you misrepresented that issue a few months back. Your inability to research the issue was AWESOME!


Excuse me? I don't recall being wrong about anything surrounding the CWB sellout to the Saudis. What was your issue with my posts?

*UPDATE:* I've just reviewed the entire Selling Out the Canadian Wheat Board thread, back to 2011, and I have no idea to what you are referring. In all of my posts I provided links and sources in the debate, countered by nothing more by ideological rants from the rest of you. *Care to be specific in your criticism?* These vague statements questioning my character are unseemly.


----------



## fjnmusic

Don't hold your breath, Mark. There are people on this board who can't seem to accept that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is an entrenched part of Canada's constitution, or that our constitution is known as the Constitution Act (1982) either. They would rather hurl insults, uninformed ones at that, than concede a point, even when you show them explicit evidence. Some people can admit they are wrong gracefully. Others, not so much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Nope.



fjnmusic said:


> Don't hold your breath, Mark. There are people on this board who can't seem to accept that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is an entrenched part of Canada's constitution, or that *our constitution is known as the Constitution Act *(1982) either. They would rather hurl insults, uninformed ones at that, than concede a point, even when you show them explicit evidence. Some people can admit they are wrong gracefully. Others, not so much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

You said the CWB was being given away for free.



CubaMark said:


> Excuse me? I don't recall being wrong about anything surrounding the CWB sellout to the Saudis. What was your issue with my posts?
> 
> *UPDATE:* I've just reviewed the entire Selling Out the Canadian Wheat Board thread, back to 2011, and I have no idea to what you are referring. In all of my posts I provided links and sources in the debate, countered by nothing more by ideological rants from the rest of you. *Care to be specific in your criticism?* These vague statements questioning my character are unseemly.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> You said the CWB was being given away for free.


You may want to re-read those posts, MF.

I cited a Rabble article that reported _*rumours*_ that the CWB was to be included in a Conservative 'giveaway' to a US corporation.

At no point did I say it was being given away for free. I posted the article and the context of the discussion in which the rumours arose:

_On Tuesday, December 2, in the House, a few days after Minister of Agriculture Gerry Ritz shared very sparse information on the Wheat Board's future with the House Agriculture Committee, the NDP's Agriculture Critic Malcolm Allen tried to get clear and forthright answers._​
All of this came about from the Conservative government refusing to discuss their plans for the CWB.

You are unequivocally wrong in your assertion.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Nope.



Please prove otherwise then. I've already supplied the link that proves it. Why can't you just admit you're wrong sometimes? There's stubborn, there's incredibly stubborn, and then there's Macfury. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Observations:

Loewen: Support for Conservatives’ niqab ban is deep and wide, even among immigrants | Ottawa Citizen

Strong support for banning niqabs in public service: study | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## Macfury

When I cite an article I do so because I believe it is true--unless I say otherwise.



CubaMark said:


> You may want to re-read those posts, MF.
> 
> I cited a Rabble article that reported _*rumours*_ that the CWB was to be included in a Conservative 'giveaway' to a US corporation.
> 
> At no point did I say it was being given away for free. I posted the article and the context of the discussion in which the rumours arose:
> 
> _On Tuesday, December 2, in the House, a few days after Minister of Agriculture Gerry Ritz shared very sparse information on the Wheat Board's future with the House Agriculture Committee, the NDP's Agriculture Critic Malcolm Allen tried to get clear and forthright answers._​
> All of this came about from the Conservative government refusing to discuss their plans for the CWB.
> 
> You are unequivocally wrong in your assertion.


----------



## Macfury

You were nominally correct before, but the Constitution Act (1982) does not contain the entire Constitution. There are documents which predate Confederation and various treaties which also form a part of it, for example.



fjnmusic said:


> Please prove otherwise then. I've already supplied the link that proves it. Why can't you just admit you're wrong sometimes? There's stubborn, there's incredibly stubborn, and then there's Macfury.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> When I cite an article I do so because I believe it is true--unless I say otherwise.


That's a weak excuse.

The article I cited expressly indicated the "giving away for free" was a rumour.

You did not see me stating this as fact.

Your qualification of my 'research abilities' is entirely incorrect and unsubstantiated.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What a weekend and then this Grenier updated poll showing more growth of a Liberal vote. Projected seats looking good for consecutive days. One week to go -

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html#polls


----------



## Macfury

Sorry. Thanks for posting rumours. Great work!



CubaMark said:


> That's a weak excuse.
> 
> The article I cited expressly indicated the "giving away for free" was a rumour.
> 
> You did not see me stating this as fact.
> 
> Your qualification of my 'research abilities' is entirely incorrect and unsubstantiated.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

lobotomy, lobotomy


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

Man, the Photoshop work is getting worse and worse.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You were nominally correct before, but the Constitution Act (1982) does not contain the entire Constitution. There are documents which predate Confederation and various treaties which also form a part of it, for example.



Uh...no. The Constitution Act of 1982 replaces the British North America Act which predates it (1867). It is self-contained and Part 1 is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Take a look, or failing that, include a link that proves your alternate theory of the universe. Perhaps Screature can help you. Perhaps you should notify all of the Social Studies book manufacturers and the Canadian government websites while you're at it to let them know they've all made a big mistake. Über stubborn.


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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 61873
> lobotomy, lobotomy



You know what really ticks me off?


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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What a weekend and then this Grenier updated poll showing more growth of a Liberal vote. Projected seats looking good for consecutive days. One week to go -
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html#polls



Noice! That's a 15 seat projected spread between 1st and 2nd place at this point. Who knows? The CPC's could end up with third party status at the rate they're dropping. Like Macfury says, 308.com is a reliable source of information about the upcoming election in one week from today.


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## Macfury

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_constitutional_documents



> The composition of the Constitution of Canada is defined in subsection 52(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982 as consisting of the Canada Act 1982 (including the Constitution Act, 1982), all acts and orders referred to in the schedule (including the Constitution Act, 1867, formerly The British North America Act, 1867), and any amendments to these documents. The Supreme Court of Canada held that the list is not exhaustive and includes a number of pre-confederation acts and unwritten components as well.





> The Constitution of Canada is a large number of documents that have been entrenched in the constitution by various means. Regardless of how documents became entrenched, together those documents form the supreme law of Canada; no non-constitutional law may conflict with them, and none of them may be changed without following the amending formula given in Part V of the Constitution Act, 1982.
> 
> The constitution includes legislation that was specifically written as constitutional documents, statutes that have become entrenched since their original creation, some ancient treaties and royal proclamations, unwritten procedures adopted from the British parliamentary system of government, and unwritten underlying values.





fjnmusic said:


> Uh...no. The Constitution Act of 1982 replaces the British North America Act which predates it (1867). It is self-contained and Part 1 is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Take a look, or failing that, include a link that proves your alternate theory of the universe. Perhaps Screature can help you. Perhaps you should notify all of the Social Studies book manufacturers and the Canadian government websites while you're at it to let them know they've all made a big mistake. Über stubborn.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I certainly never said it was reliable--I said that it was doing careful methodology for seat counts.

However, it hasn't updated in three or four days.



fjnmusic said:


> Noice! That's a 15 seat projected spread between 1st and 2nd place at this point. Who knows? The CPC's could end up with third party status at the rate they're dropping. Like Macfury says, 308.com is a reliable source of information about the upcoming election in one week from today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_constitutional_documents



Well okay then. Point taken. Thanks you for the correction.


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I certainly never said it was reliable--I said that it was doing careful methodology for seat counts.
> 
> 
> 
> However, it hasn't updated in three or four days.



Today's seat count is the one that shows a 15 seat projected spread between Liberal at 134 seats and Conservatives at 119 seats. Not a done deal by any stretch, but it certainly indicates a trend. The trend does not favor the Conservatives. All they have going for them is the fact that there are two parties on the left and one on the right. 


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## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> Today's seat count is the one that shows a 15 seat projected spread between Liberal at 134 seats and Conservatives at 119 seats. Not a done deal by any stretch, but it certainly indicates a trend. The trend does not favor the Conservatives. All they have going for them is the fact that there are two parties on the left and one on the right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is one reason I'm not voting Liberal. I don't ever want the left thinking my vote is left of centre when I am voting centre.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> This is one reason I'm not voting Liberal. I don't ever want the left thinking my vote is left of centre when I am voting centre.



So who would you consider to be in the centre, Vandave? Like the songs says, clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right....


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Wrong again. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms forms the first section of the Constitution Act of 1982. I don't understand why you fail to grasp this concept. I hope it was your own lack of study and not your teachers that taught you wrong.
> 
> Please read it for yourself if you don't believe me.
> 
> Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982


What don't you get?

CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982 (80)
*PART I*
CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize *the supremacy of God *and the rule of law:

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

*Marginal note: Rights and freedoms in Canada*

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such *reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society*.

*Bingo!! *

This happened after PET imposed War Measures Act during the October "Crisis" what a laugh that is is.

It does not mean that the "Charter" is the overriding principle of the contract between the provinces i.e. the *Constitution*, quite the contrary as Quebec laws have proven time and again. 

The devil is always in the details and the fine print. I am quite surprised that you as an educated man doesn't know that as I said before the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is subsumed into the Constitution but they are not one and the same the thing... As much as Pet tried to make it so... you do a little homework so you can realize the difference and stop chiding me me with your amateur antics.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I've been following this and I see your point.The Charter is entrenched in the Constitution Act of 1982 as part of the Constitution. However, the Constitution Act is not the Constitution. Agreed?
> 
> If I misunderstood you earlier, I apologize.


Se my latest post. You have no need to apologize.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Se my latest post. You have no need to apologize.



Even when you're wrong you're right. You will defend your answer to the death it seems. I think you missed your calling, screature. You should have been a lawyer, although I'd never hire you. 


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## fjnmusic

Wow. This Nanos poll includes Monday, October 11. I'd say a clear leader is emerging at the beginning of the final week.









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## skippythebushkangaroo

Yup. This is shaping up to be a great week leading up to toss Harper day. 

I take joy in the CTV report on the faltering campaigns of Harper muppets in Ontario - 

"the Tories are at risk of losing a dozen seats in Ontario, including those held by Immigration Minister Chris Alexander, Parliamentary Secretary Paul Calandra, Assistant Defence Minister Julian Fantino and Finance Minister Joe Oliver."

The one missing from the list is Kelli Leech - cmon Grey Bruce, dump her please. 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...r-looks-to-protect-seats-in-ontario-1.2605931


----------



## Macfury

We were already talking about that one when it was released in the morning--and the EKOS poll which contradicts it.



fjnmusic said:


> Wow. This Nanos poll includes Monday, October 11. I'd say a clear leader is emerging at the beginning of the final week.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Interesting article from US business magazine that points out Canada's superior investor performance while we have a Liberal govt.

For Canada Investors, Liberals Have Been Better Bet Than Tories - Bloomberg Business


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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Interesting article from US business magazine that points out Canada's superior investor performance while we have a Liberal govt.
> 
> 
> 
> For Canada Investors, Liberals Have Been Better Bet Than Tories - Bloomberg Business



Careful Skippy—if you post actual links instead of funny cartoons, they're not sure how they're supposed to mock you. 


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## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 61873
> lobotomy, lobotomy


Puts me in mind of baboons picking parasitic bugs off each other!!  :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Yep. The Libs are like Santa Claus with government handouts to business. Nothing like a nice infusion of taxpayer cash to fatten the bottom line. Your business hoping for a nice handout, Jimbo?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Interesting article from US business magazine that points out Canada's superior investor performance while we have a Liberal govt.
> 
> For Canada Investors, Liberals Have Been Better Bet Than Tories - Bloomberg Business


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

https://www.youtube.com/embed/TDRg9Ma70xk


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> https://www.youtube.com/embed/TDRg9Ma70xk


"A vacation for your mind."


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Add Ted Opitz to the band of Cons in Ontario who should get the boot on Monday night. Even I can't believe they can stoop so low as to bring out the crackhead.

Rob, Doug Ford lend support at Harper campaign stop in Toronto - The Globe and Mail


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another couple of polls illustrating Liberal momentum. Personally I'm looking forward to Grenier's update tomorrow. Looking good.

Liberals jump out to 6 point lead ahead of Conservatives in latest Ipsos poll | Globalnews.ca

This one warns about the margin of error. Nonetheless I like the look of the graph.

EKOS: Liberals lead in Ontario, B.C., and Quebec, but mind the margin of error


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> So who would you consider to be in the centre, Vandave? Like the songs says, clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I'm not in the centre. I am definitely right of centre. 

But I am not so far to the right that I wouldn't consider voting for a centrist party. If that party were to define themselves as left of centre, then they won't get my vote.

A lot of NDP supporters would potentially vote Liberal based on their social policies. Conservative supporters can go to the centre if the Liberals support free enterprise and limited taxation.

It's unquestionable that the Liberal Party represents the centre of Canadian politics with Cons to the right and NDP to the left.


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another couple of polls illustrating Liberal momentum. Personally I'm looking forward to Grenier's update tomorrow. Looking good.
> 
> Liberals jump out to 6 point lead ahead of Conservatives in latest Ipsos poll | Globalnews.ca
> 
> This one warns about the margin of error. Nonetheless I like the look of the graph.
> 
> EKOS: Liberals lead in Ontario, B.C., and Quebec, but mind the margin of error


LOL if the greens get 2%. What a bunch of phonies. It's great that the public sees they aren't really a green party. 

Hopefully that will mark the end of them and real green party can take their place.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More great news. Elections Canada has just released results of advanced polling - 3.6 million voters. Over a 70% increase over 2011. 

I'm sure the vote suppression party is not too happy. Many a Con arse will be smarting next Tuesday morning.


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More great news. Elections Canada has just released results of advanced polling - 3.6 million voters. Over a 70% increase over 2011.
> 
> I'm sure the vote suppression party is not too happy. Many a Con arse will be smarting next Tuesday morning.


We shall see. I think it's too early to read into those numbers. How do you know what the demographics of those early voters are?

I googled to check out images and this is what came up. Still feeling confident? :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Vandave said:


> We shall see. I think it's too early to read into those numbers. How do you know what the demographics of those early voters are?
> 
> 
> 
> I googled to check out images and this is what came up. Still feeling confident? :lmao:



Yup. I voted Friday and knew quite a few people voting. I was particularly heartened by a group of Muslim women voting. I knew they weren't supporting the suppression party.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More great news. Elections Canada has just released results of advanced polling - 3.6 million voters. Over a 70% increase over 2011.
> 
> I'm sure the vote suppression party is not too happy. Many a Con arse will be smarting next Tuesday morning.


Up to a 2 hour wait in Kelowna last I heard. So much for advanced polling being faster...

Brought to you by Elections Canada and their ineptitude....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Up to a 2hour wait in Kelowna last I heard.... so much for advanced polling being faster...
> 
> 
> 
> Brought to you by Elections Canada and their ineptitude.



30 minute wait for me. Well worth it though.


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yup. I voted Friday and knew quite a few people voting. I was particularly heartened by a group of Muslim women voting. I knew they weren't supporting the suppression party.


The NDP? The guys who support oppression?


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> The NDP? The guys who support oppression?


There are a large number of Muslims who support the niqab ban--many can't speak out about it for fear of retribution, but their votes will.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> There are a large number of Muslims who support the niqab ban--many can't speak out about it for fear of retribution, but their votes will.



Yes I'm sure Muslims are thrilled with Harper's Muslim baiting.


----------



## Macfury

It looks like baiting only if you suffer from Harper Derangement Syndrome.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes I'm sure Muslims are thrilled with Harper's Muslim baiting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> It looks like baiting only if you suffer from Harper Derangement Syndrome.



Or if you're Muslim.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Or Canadian for that matter.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The republican takeover of Canada ends on Monday folks.


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> or canadian for that matter.


+1


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This my friends is priceless. 

Is it possible to boot these suckers lower than 100 seats?

http://youtu.be/I8czWjgjql0


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh man they're starting to pile on the arsehole. 

http://youtu.be/z6szh66SU3M


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## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh man they're starting to pile on the arsehole.
> 
> http://youtu.be/z6szh66SU3M


Wow. Rick pulls 3,000 views on Youtube in two years. :lmao:

I read that the evening CBC TV newshour sometimes pulls about 10,000 people in the ENTIRE Vancouver market, and I'm sure they paid off somebody to inflate that number. It's like a high school volleyball game. The only people watching are families of the players. It's the same with the CBC. The 1,000 people working propaganda for the Vancouver market each pull about 10 people. 

I'm sure Rick's mom is really proud that her boy is on the old TV.

As much as I dislike the CBC bias, at least nobody is listening.


----------



## Vandave

I read that CBC News pulls a zero point zero (yes 0.0) in the 18 to 49 demographic here in Vancouver. :lmao:

I was listening to some CBC in the car to get a sense of how their propaganda campaign was going and I realized that was the first time my 8 year old daughter even heard the word CBC. As soon as that thought hit me, I shut it off. Hopefully she forgets that incident and never has to listen to it again. 

In ten to twenty years, the kids will be wondering what the hell the CBC is. When they get to voting age and see that we spend a billion dollars for an acronym nobody has heard of, it's days will be numbered.


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Oh man they're starting to pile on the arsehole.
> 
> http://youtu.be/z6szh66SU3M


Maybe the CBC is confused about 'viral videos'. 

I bet they think the viral part means dead or dying. By that definition, the CBC is pushing out all sorts of viral videos.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hey you and sink are CBC haters.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> Maybe the CBC is confused about 'viral videos'.
> 
> I bet they think the viral part means dead or dying. By that definition, the CBC is pushing out all sorts of viral videos.


I was amazed the other day when some bleeding heart I met was weeping about CBC TV cuts--then revealed she doesn't have cable TV or an antenna. It was all kneejerk weeping and gnashing of teeth!


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Another couple of polls illustrating Liberal momentum. Personally I'm looking forward to Grenier's update tomorrow. Looking good.
> 
> 
> 
> Liberals jump out to 6 point lead ahead of Conservatives in latest Ipsos poll | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> This one warns about the margin of error. Nonetheless I like the look of the graph.
> 
> 
> 
> EKOS: Liberals lead in Ontario, B.C., and Quebec, but mind the margin of error



Yep. Looks about right. Maybe not in Alberta, but the rest of country is beginning to see the light.


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----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> No, I'm not in the centre. I am definitely right of centre.
> 
> 
> 
> But I am not so far to the right that I wouldn't consider voting for a centrist party. If that party were to define themselves as left of centre, then they won't get my vote.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of NDP supporters would potentially vote Liberal based on their social policies. Conservative supporters can go to the centre if the Liberals support free enterprise and limited taxation.
> 
> 
> 
> It's unquestionable that the Liberal Party represents the centre of Canadian politics with Cons to the right and NDP to the left.



That's about the way I see it as well. And in increasing number of people being polled appear to see it that way as well. In any event, I think it's going to be far easier for a Liberal minority gov't to gain the confidence of the house than for a Conservative minority gov't to do the same. Just sayin' in case we want the next gov't to be able to actually get things accomplished. 


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Just sayin' in case we want the next gov't to be able to actually get things accomplished.


I love it when they get little to nothing accomplished. Makes for the best governance.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I love it when they get little to nothing accomplished. Makes for the best governance.



Makes for a waste of taxpayers' money. I thought you were fiscally conservative. 


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## Macfury

I am. When they can't agree, they spend less money. Grand visions are sinking Ontario already.



fjnmusic said:


> Makes for a waste of taxpayers' money. I thought you were fiscally conservative.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More great news. Elections Canada has just released results of advanced polling - 3.6 million voters. Over a 70% increase over 2011.
> 
> I'm sure the vote suppression party is not too happy. Many a Con arse will be smarting next Tuesday morning.



People usually get to out to vote more when they are pissed off with the status quo. They are motivated when then they think they can change things, when the feel their vote could make a difference. It happened in Alberta already after 44 years.


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----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I am. When they can't agree, they spend less money. Grand visions are sinking Ontario already.



When we pay them large salaries for sitting around and not doing anything, we are the fools.


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----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hey you and sink are CBC haters.


No, I don't hate the CBC. I hate that government gives them $1.1 billion per year. Give me the option of opting out of that negative billing program and I'm fine with them. 

I don't understand the need for a national broadcaster. It's unnecessary.


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hey you and sink are CBC haters.


Speaking of SINC, did anyone else notice the editorial he published in his daily St. Albert's Place on the Web recently??



SINC in SAP said:


> Canada’s Conservative Party
> Deserves A Lesson From Us
> 
> The Conservative Party of Canada has been in trouble for far too long now and it is time for Canadians to rebel against it. The issue is its leader.
> 
> Yes fellow Conservatives, it is time we change the leadership of the party and put it back on the right track.
> 
> It fell off the rails under the leadership of Stephen Harper and we now need to run him off the rails.
> 
> It is remotely possible he might retain the office of the prime minister with a minority after this election. If so it will be accomplished more by fear than by good government. He is a dangerous man who needs to be turfed by his own party.
> 
> I won’t cite his flaws, but you too must know his time has come. It is the party itself who have to come to grips with their support of Harper. It is time to reach into the depths of the party and elect a new leader who has not been tainted by Harper. In other words, none of his current crop of MPs deserve a chance at the job.
> 
> I have been a Conservative supporter for well over 30 years now and stand ashamed of Harper, the PMO and the cronies he has surrounded himself with. Their collective assault on the Canadian people must be stopped.
> 
> Let’s toss Harper's sorry ass out and select a new and decent man or woman to lead us out of the wilderness Harper has created. We need to get Canada on track again and neither Mulcair or Trudeau is the man to do it.
> 
> .................
> 
> One day I and many others may return to voting Conservative, but not this time around.
> 
> The future is now up to the Conservative Party itself to stand and admit they have been betting on the wrong horse in this race. It is time to put Harper out to pasture.
> 
> The Canadian people deserve at least that much from the Conservative Party in return for the support they have given them over the past decade.


----------



## Vandave

If we cut the CBC, it would pay for the new jets over their lifecycle. Two controversies solved with one stone.


----------



## Vandave

In theory my household pays the CBC $120 per year. I obviously pay a lot more than that because I foot the bill for most of the slackers in this country. 

In reality, I probably pay $500 per year for things like the Beachcombers, some lost dog and a show with a giraffe.

I pay $5 a month for Sirius XM. We could probably get the whole country hooked up with them for $100 million per year, plus free radios. You also get 200 channels instead of one. I bet if we had a referendum, people take the radios plus the cash savings over Peter Mansbridge.


----------



## Macfury

We are already fools for having a government with as large a civil service as we have. If we can't fire their asses, better they do nothing, then spend money. Little of what they do creates wealth.



fjnmusic said:


> When we pay them large salaries for sitting around and not doing anything, we are the fools.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

If we had a referendum, I bet the biggest problem is people wouldn't understand the question. 90% of voters would write "what's the CBC?" on the ballet.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> We are already fools for having a government with as large a civil service as we have. If we can't fire their asses, better they do nothing, then spend money. Little of what they do creates wealth.


The Federal government is a joke compared to the Provincial and Municipal governments. In my business, I avoid Federal work because it's so disgusting. The province is pretty good here in BC to be honest. I don't mind them spending my money because they actually do it fairly well. This is my biggest disappointment in Harper. He could have done something on this front.


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> Speaking of SINC, did anyone else notice the editorial he published in his daily ]St. Albert's Place on the Web[/URL]??


Yes, he is urging people to vote for an independent instead of any of the big three parties.


----------



## fjnmusic

Boy, the news gets more encouraging for Libs and Trudeau fans everyday! An 18 seat spread between the Libs and the Cons at this point! I really gotta thank you for turning me on to this site, Macfury. 









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----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Boy, the news gets more encouraging for Libs and Trudeau fans everyday! An 18 seat spread between the Libs and the Cons at this point! I really gotta thank you for turning me on to this site, Macfury.


More fun available when you play with the sliders at the bottom, moving votes from average probabilities to high to low.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> More fun available when you play with the sliders at the bottom, moving votes from average probabilities to high to low.



True enough, and as time goes by, it appears that there fewer ways in which Harper and the Neo-Cons can win this election. Hours of entertainment. 


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## Macfury

Stephen Harper is not a neo-conservative--he is just slightly to the right of the squishy middle. 

But if you're up for it, explain how a neo-conservative would be different from a conservative.



fjnmusic said:


> True enough, and as time goes by, it appears that there fewer ways in which Harper and the Neo-Cons can win this election. Hours of entertainment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> True enough, and as time goes by, it appears that there fewer ways in which Harper and the Neo-Cons can win this election. Hours of entertainment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well the obvious one is a major threat from ISIL or whatever they are calling themselves this week. You know, something obviously studio produced with top end video equipment, that somehow is first discovered by an Israeli website. Alternatively some sort of terrorist attack on Friday. Has to come too close to the election for anyone to uncover the CSIS or CIA strings or the inevitably obvious flaws in the staging.

Anyways if enough people throw the prediction out there, we can hope that it will discourage the Harper from trying to pull it off.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Stephen Harper is not a neo-conservative--he is just slightly to the right of the squishy middle.
> 
> 
> 
> But if you're up for it, explain how a neo-conservative would be different from a conservative.



Exactly.


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----------



## rgray




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## SINC

The refugee tide turns in Germany - The Globe and Mail

Time to rethink some party's positions?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Some great news coming out of a just released poll of ridings where the Cons could benefit from vote splitting. Lead now shows that the concerted effort to limit splitting is working. We have Graham Saul to thank for his work in Ottawa. The only Con left standing is Poilievre and a major effort will now be focused on bringing him down. 

Looking good folks!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More great news ...

Harper announced today he won't speak to national media for the rest of the campaign. That's it. He's done.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> The refugee tide turns in Germany - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> Time to rethink some party's positions?



They are seeing 10,000 new immigrants a day while we are seeing, what, 10,000 total? In a country that is far bigger? No, I don't think we're anywhere near a crisis with refugees in Canada. 


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----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More great news ...
> 
> Harper announced today he won't speak to national media for the rest of the campaign. That's it. He's done.



In more ways than one. I think there is a part of him that must have known this from the start. Hence the desperate tactics and hiring of Lynton Crosby for strategic matters. Damn foreign advisors.


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----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More great news ...
> 
> Harper announced today he won't speak to national media for the rest of the campaign. That's it. He's done.


Needs a reference


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper buck


----------



## Macfury

Their plan makes no sense. Ours does.



fjnmusic said:


> They are seeing 10,000 new immigrants a day while we are seeing, what, 10,000 total? In a country that is far bigger? No, I don't think we're anywhere near a crisis with refugees in Canada.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> (Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Yes, saw this in the CH this morning, CM. The NDP seemed to peak too soon. And, with a long election, this gave time for more people to take another look at the Liberals and to rethink their desire for another Conservative government.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, saw this in the CH this morning, CM. The NDP seemed to peak too soon. And, with a long election, this gave time for more people to take another look at the Liberals and to rethink their desire for another Conservative government.


Their campaign is going to be picked apart in the coming months but holding the line on the balanced budget is not what a majority of the electorate wanted. The Liberals pounced on it and out flanked the NDP and appeared to be more progressive.
Furthermore the CONS using the niqab as a wedge really damaged the NDP. They are hemorrhaging seats in Quebec as a result to such an extent that the Liberals could gain a very strong minority and possibly a small majority over the next several days. The NDP clearly blew it.


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Their campaign is going to be picked apart in the coming months but holding the line on the balanced budget is not what a majority of the electorate wanted. The Liberals pounced on it and out flanked the NDP and appeared to be more progressive.
> Furthermore the CONS using the niqab as a wedge really damaged the NDP. They are hemorrhaging seats in Quebec as a result to such an extent that the Liberals could gain a very strong minority and possibly a small majority over the next several days. The NDP clearly blew it.


I would agree with this contention. At least the Liberals were out front with their decision to not try to balance the budget, and to put the money into positive projects. I can see a Liberal minority government, but unless they make great gains in ON and BC, along with QC, a minority government is the best they can hope for next week. We shall see.


----------



## Vandave

I wonder if Mulcair resigns when this is as said and done. I think he will be the biggest loser in this election and I think the long knives will probably come out. 

But not only that, being able to yell at Harper with moral indignation would have been infinitely more enjoyable than sucking up to Junior. 

He's also going to have a tough job from stopping his MPs crossing the floor.

Take the pension is what he'll do.


----------



## Macfury

I don't want to see a win for the president of Katimavik, but my main hope in this election was the elimination of Mulcair. Having Harper take out the most dangerous, vindictive lunatic in Canadian politics is a public service--heaven knows junior couldn't handle the task.



Vandave said:


> I wonder if Mulcair resigns when this is as said and done. I think he will be the biggest loser in this election and I think the long knives will probably come out.
> 
> But not only that, being able to yell at Harper with moral indignation would have been infinitely more enjoyable than sucking up to Junior.
> 
> He's also going to have a tough job from stopping his MPs crossing the floor.
> 
> Take the pension is what he'll do.


----------



## Vandave

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, saw this in the CH this morning, CM. The NDP seemed to peak too soon. And, with a long election, this gave time for more people to take another look at the Liberals and to rethink their desire for another Conservative government.


I don't agree.

I think the pundits and media live in a bit of a bubble and read too much into things between elections and early in elections. The majority of people don't tune in until a few weeks before an election. I think what happened is the public started to tune in and didn't like what they saw. I think Canadians saw Mulcair for the pandering scumbag that he is.

Basically what I am suggesting is that a victory was never in the cards. It was all an illusion. The NDP will never win the PM's seat. They get a bump in support every couple decades. You can expect another in around 2035. 

We're going get 8 to 12 years of Liberals now and then 8 to 12 years of Conservatives. When the Conservatives fall off again sometime around 2031 to 2039, the NDP will have a surge of support. And right before voting day, it will once again, all fall apart. 

And once again, the NDP will not learn from the experience. They will not pursue the path of Labour in the UK under Tony Blair and turf the loons. The time to do that is basically now. What will happen is the NDP will go even further to the left. Their supporters are actually going to believe that Trudeau out flanked them by going further to the left when Mulcair went to the centre. Just watch. :lmao: And they'll think that next election they need to go really really left, just like what happened to Labour in the UK. And then there will be collective shock how they only have 30 or 40 seats after the next election.


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> We're going get 8 to 12 years of Liberals now and then 8 to 12 years of Conservatives. When the Conservatives fall off again sometime around 2031 to 2039, the NDP will have a surge of support. And right before voting day, it will once again, all fall apart.


Great. We will continue our historical see-saw between the two parties responsible for creating ginormous debt, diminishing our rights and freedoms, and the selling out of our manufacturing and raw materials sectors.

Oh happy day... :-(


----------



## Macfury

Didn't know you didn't like long-term debt, CM. At least we can agree on that.



CubaMark said:


> Great. We will continue our historical see-saw between the two parties responsible for creating ginormous debt, diminishing our rights and freedoms, and the selling out of our manufacturing and raw materials sectors.
> 
> Oh happy day... :-(


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Didn't know you didn't like long-term debt, CM. At least we can agree on that.


There's no reason an oil-exporting country like Canada, with immense natural resources, should have that kind of debt, domestic poverty & homelessness.


----------



## Macfury

Let's just leave our agreement at "no long-term debt."



CubaMark said:


> There's no reason an oil-exporting country like Canada, with immense natural resources, should have that kind of debt, domestic poverty & homelessness.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> No, I'm not in the centre. I am definitely right of centre.
> 
> But I am not so far to the right that I wouldn't consider voting for a centrist party. If that party were to define themselves as left of centre, then they won't get my vote.
> 
> A lot of NDP supporters would potentially vote Liberal based on their social policies. Conservative supporters can go to the centre if the Liberals support free enterprise and limited taxation.
> 
> *It's unquestionable that the Liberal Party represents the centre of Canadian politics with Cons to the right and NDP to the left.*


I disagree. There are plenty of issues that the Cons represent the centre more than the Libs do.

The natural ruling party in Canada would be a coalition of the Cons and the Libs with the NDP falling very far behind.

But due to our party system that will most likely never happen, so we are always left voting for the least objectionable candidate rather than the best candidate. 

I hope JT and the Libs form a minority Government, that way we would all come to know how good we had it. beejacon

God help me... I actually made that post.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


>


What a ridiculous and stupid cartoon... It just goes to show the calibre of the person who re-posted it.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 61929
> Harper buck


Complete and utter BS. The government of the day is not responsible for the value of the Canadian dollar. If it were true your heros Chrétien and Martin should have been kicked out of office when the CDN dollar reached $.60 to the US dollar.

Once again pure BS and you have a distinctively selective memory or none at all... early onset dementia perhaps?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> There's no reason an oil-exporting country like Canada, with immense natural resources, should have that kind of debt, domestic poverty & homelessness.


Yes there is. We have a vast geography with relatively few inhabitants.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Complete and utter BS. The government of the day is not responsible for the value of the Canadian dollar. If it were true your heros Chrétien and Martin should have been kicked out of office when the CDN dollar reached $.60 to the US dollar.
> 
> Once again pure BS and you have a distinctively selective memory or none at all... early onset dementia perhaps?


No understanding of the Central Bank or any of the economic levers that drive such things.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Complete and utter BS. The government of the day is not responsible for the value of the Canadian dollar. If it were true your heros Chrétien and Martin should have been kicked out of office when the CDN dollar reached $.60 to the US dollar.


I wouldn't go there anyway. A low Canadian dollar is very good thing for the country. It allows us to sell our products and services for less than our competitors and still end up with more in our pockets after the exchange.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I wouldn't go there anyway. A low Canadian dollar is very good thing for the country. It allows us to sell our products and services for less than our competitors and still end up with more in our pockets after the exchange.


Even Ontario, reeling under the burden of the current Liberal government, stands to gain at least a little from this development.


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Nice excerpt from a book on Rob Ford. Rob and Doug are hosting an event for Steve on Saturday. Nice friends Steve relies on. 

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/rob-ford-uncontrollable-read-an-exclusive-excerpt/


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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice excerpt from a book on Rob Ford. Rob and Doug are hosting an event for Steve on Saturday. Nice friends Steve relies on.
> 
> http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/rob-ford-uncontrollable-read-an-exclusive-excerpt/



Those individuals, that family...have long been supporters. It's just that little Stevie can't bring himself to say their names out loud in public. 


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 61961



Yup. And marijuana is "infinitely" worse than tobacco.









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## SINC

Liberal campaign co-chair steps down after advising TransCanada on lobbying next government - Politics - CBC News


----------



## fjnmusic

You know you're in trouble when even the rats are abandoning ship. 

http://thinkpol.ca/2015/10/15/lynton-crosby-abandons-harper/


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## FeXL

Let's talk head coverings, voting & citizenship ceremonies...

Woman votes wearing Potato Sack on her head 



> On the first day of advance voting in Canada, a resident of Quebec is presented in a Quebec poll face covered with a bag.


BREAKING: ANOTHER reporter votes in niqab -- and "this time it's worse"




> Another reporter, Ilana Shneider with CIJNews.com, put on a niqab and voted in the advance poll in Willowdale, Ontario.
> 
> As you can see, at no time did Shneider ever remove her face mask.
> 
> But worse, unlike Menzies, *at no time was she even asked to swear that it was really her, or show a second piece of ID.*


Bold from the link.

And, what's this?

Even Mulcair called niqab a form of "oppression," but Media Party ignored it



> The niqab has become a Canadian election issue, and the Left are using it as a way to paint the anti-burqa Right as "racist."
> 
> So how do they explain that even NDP leader Thomas Mulcair believes these Muslim face coverings are "oppressive"?
> 
> He said so during one of the election debates, remember?
> 
> You may not, because the Media Party tried to ignore it.


Of course they wear them voluntarily!

Citizenship ceremony got 'heated' over niqab



> This past July, a Muslim man got into a “screaming match” with federal citizenship officials who asked his wife to remove her niqab during the ceremony to take her oath.
> 
> According to several sources who witnessed the confrontation, but are not authorized to speak with media, *the woman was willing to remove her face covering in order to become a Canadian citizen.
> 
> Her husband, however, refused to allow her to show her face.*


M'bold.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> You know you're in trouble when even the rats are abandoning ship.
> 
> Lynton Crosby abandons Harper | ThinkPol


That depends on who is abandoning who. If the party is abandoning him for bad advice, and it sure seems like he gave that for the old stock Canadians phrase, that comment fails.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> That depends on who is abandoning who. If the party is abandoning him for bad advice, and it sure seems like he gave that for the old stock Canadians phrase, that comment fails.


It simply seems as though Crosby wanted Harper to take ALL of his advice, and Harper found it too distasteful.


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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## FeXL

And, from the "Asked & not answered" department, there have been several posts complaining about Harper & the economy noted here. I asked the question, "Fine, how did the last Liberal Prime Minister handle a recession?"

All I got was crickets. Go figger. So, in the interest of refreshing memories, here's one example of fine, Liberal Prime Ministerial leadership during one recession...

H/T to SDA, linked for the comments.

Remember when? Alberta’s economy under Trudeau (Sr.)



> The Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers later blamed the NEP for the loss of 15,000 jobs, a 22% drop in drilling activity, and a 25% decline in exploration budgets. Overall, industry cash flow and earnings fell 34% to $3.1 billion in 1981 from $4.7 billion a year before. As oil patch historian Paul Chastko notes, “the price paid by consumers of petroleum products almost doubled as consumption dropped by 6%. The industry realized far too late that the energy struggles between the province and the federal government had little to do with oil and everything to do with political power.”
> 
> Chastko adds, “the NEP decimated the oil and gas industry after Lalonde designed the NEP to alter the structure of power between Ottawa and the industry, between Ottawa and foreign owned energy companies, and between Ottawa and Alberta.” Economists later said that ultimately, the NEP cost the Alberta provincial economy more than $97 billion.


That was Alberta in particular. Canada wide (from the comments):



> "*And Jean Chrétien remarked candidly after holding ministerial office for 15 years: “We left the cupboard bare”. They sure did.
> 
> Remember? The deficit of $38.5 billion was nearly 9 percent of GDP, the largest in history.
> 
> The federal debt had increased by 1,100 percent under the Trudeau administration. Short-term interest rates had recently peaked at 22.75 percent. Program spending had
> soared to $1.23 for every dollar collected in taxes.
> 
> And the interventionist, confiscatory policies of Ottawa — from FIRA to the NEP to the PGRT — sent all the wrong messages to the international community*"


M'bold.

Yes, by all means: Please elect the Dauphin because this generation has not seen it's fair share of Liberal economic policy.


----------



## FeXL

And more lies.

Passport to Deceit



> From a Liberal flyer targeting new Canadians:
> 
> _Changes made by the Harper Conservatives will create two classes of citizenship and give a politician the right to revoke your citizenship without a trial.​_
> Two reprehensible lies in one sentence for the bespoke purpose of frightening law-abiding immigrants.
> 
> _Only Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party will protect you, your family and all Canadians...​_
> *Unscrupulous, and disgusting.*


M'bold.

Keep talking, Justin. Only a few more days left...


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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Prime Minister Trudeau!


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Ontari-ari-ari-o!

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html#regions


----------



## Dr.G.

Ken Taylor, former Canadian ambassador to Iran, dead at 81 - Canada - CBC News

In a statement, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said that Taylor "valiantly risked his own life by shielding a group of American diplomats from capture.

"Ken Taylor represented the very best that Canada's foreign service has to offer."


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Ken Taylor, former Canadian ambassador to Iran, dead at 81 - Canada - CBC News
> 
> In a statement, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said that Taylor "valiantly risked his own life by shielding a group of American diplomats from capture.
> 
> "Ken Taylor represented the very best that Canada's foreign service has to offer."


A true Canadian hero who will be remembered for his bravery. Sometimes a brave man does not carry a weapon or wear a uniform, but is brave nonetheless. RIP Mr. Taylor.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I wouldn't go there anyway. A low Canadian dollar is very good thing for the country. It allows us to sell our products and services for less than our competitors and still end up with more in our pockets after the exchange.


It is a double edged sword. A low dollar is good for manufactures but bad for consumers but since consumers make up the vast majority of the economy a lower dollar is bad for the majority of Canadians. 

IMO near parity is best for Canadians.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice excerpt from a book on Rob Ford. Rob and Doug are hosting an event for Steve on Saturday. Nice friends Steve relies on.
> 
> Rob Ford: Uncontrollable: Read an exclusive excerpt


Oh give it a rest... This is ancient history and we all know the story.

I have friends who did wrong as well. Do you not? I doubt it. Does it make it culpable for their crimes? I think not...


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Prime Minister Trudeau!












Good on you for taking the discussion to a 50 year old low. Well done.

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Macfury

And EKOS notes today that the Liberal lead "is no longer statistically significant."


----------



## Vandave

screature said:


> It is a double edged sword. A low dollar is good for manufactures but bad for consumers but since consumers make up the vast majority of the economy a lower dollar is bad for the majority of Canadians.
> 
> IMO near parity is best for Canadians.


Our dollar is an indirect reflection of our productivity relative to the US. A lower dollar can be a reflection of our poor productivity. I think this is one area that the Conservatives have failed to address and I doubt the Liberals will do anything about it either.

We should take no solace that a lower dollar is good for trade. I'd rather our country have a dollar near parity and have high productivity in our manufacturing sectors.

I think Poloz is a jackass and I don't think he should have cut interest rates. We have housing bubbles in all our cities and he killed our dollar by cutting rates. He should have let the economy go into recession to stop the un-sustainable build up of consumer and household debt. A 90 cent dollar would have been sufficient stimulus for manufacturing.


----------



## Macfury

Strangely enough, Canada's productivity looks really good this year, largely because everyone else is stumbling.



Vandave said:


> Our dollar is an indirect reflection of our productivity relative to the US. A lower dollar can be a reflection of our poor productivity. I think this is one area that the Conservatives have failed to address and I doubt the Liberals will do anything about it either.
> 
> We should take no solace that a lower dollar is good for trade. I'd rather our country have a dollar near parity and have high productivity in our manufacturing sectors.
> 
> I think Poloz is a jackass and I don't think he should have cut interest rates. We have housing bubbles in all our cities and he killed our dollar by cutting rates. He should have let the economy go into recession to stop the un-sustainable build up of consumer and household debt. A 90 cent dollar would have been sufficient stimulus for manufacturing.


----------



## SINC

Yep, as Yogi said, 'it ain't over til its over' and the only poll that counts comes up on Monday. Just hope there are no self inflicted wounds here due to actual results.


----------



## screature

Oh it is still significant.

God rest my soul, I have to say it would be better for the Conservatives if the Liberals won a small minority... GULP... but it would shake things up for the the Conservative and everyone in the PMO should be fired.

It could be a great new beginning for the CPC. 

I am not suggesting that anyone who is sitting on the fence between the Libs and the CPC should vote Liberal, because that would be a bad thing but recent polling suggests that there will be a minority government most likely led by JT... GAG me with his silver spoon, but it may end up being being the best thing for the CPC long term.

The most important thing for CPC supporters is to turn out and vote.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> Our dollar is an indirect reflection of our productivity relative to the US. A lower dollar can be a reflection of our poor productivity. I think this is one area that the Conservatives have failed to address and I doubt the Liberals will do anything about it either.
> 
> We should take no solace that a lower dollar is good for trade. I'd rather our country have a dollar near parity and have high productivity in our manufacturing sectors.
> 
> I think Poloz is a jackass and I don't think he should have cut interest rates. We have housing bubbles in all our cities and he killed our dollar by cutting rates. He should have let the economy go into recession to stop the un-sustainable build up of consumer and household debt. A 90 cent dollar would have been sufficient stimulus for manufacturing.


Agreed.


----------



## Vandave

screature said:


> Oh it is still significant.
> 
> God rest my soul, I have to say it would be better for the Conservatives if the Liberals won a small minority... GULP... but it would shake things up for the the Conservative and everyone in the PMO should be fired.
> 
> It could be a great new beginning for the CPC.
> 
> I am not suggesting that anyone who is sitting on the fence between the Libs and the CPC should vote Liberal, because that would be a bad thing but recent polling suggests that there will be a minority government most likely led by JT... GAG me with his silver spoon, but it may end up being being the best thing for the CPC long term.
> 
> The most important thing for CPC supporters is to turn out and vote.


Save it for after the election. 

I don't see a lot of people coming up behind Harper that I think would be good leaders, but I also haven't really thought about it so feel free to convince me.

I hope the party doesn't fracture like what happened under Mulroney. I don't think it will, and I think the Conservatives understand they need a 'big tent' to be a viable party. In contrast, the NDP failed to figure this out while the Liberals were down and out. They lost a historic opportunity to be a viable centre-left party. That's worth remembering because a party that doesn't appeal to the middle can never win in Canada.

If a good leader were to come along, the Conservatives could pull off a victory because minority governments are volatile and Trudeau could go down in flames. For the record, I don't think he will and I think he gets a majority after this minority. I think the public gets frustrated with minority governments and are prone to giving a minority PM a chance at full power to prove himself. That's why Harper got his majority IMO.

I think the exception to this would be a PM who looked really incompetent and a viable contender would clearly look competent. I think it would take something like a Trudeau recession for that Conservative guy to be viable.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> Save it for after the election.
> 
> I don't see a lot of people coming up behind Harper that I think would be good leaders, but I also haven't really thought about it so feel free to convince me.
> 
> I hope the party doesn't fracture like what happened under Mulroney. I don't think it will, and I think the Conservatives understand they need a 'big tent' to be a viable party. In contrast, the NDP failed to figure this out while the Liberals were down and out. They lost a historic opportunity to be a viable centre-left party. That's worth remembering because a party that doesn't appeal to the middle can never win in Canada.
> 
> If a good leader were to come along, the Conservatives could pull off a victory because minority governments are volatile and Trudeau could go down in flames. For the record, I don't think he will and I think he gets a majority after this minority. I think the public gets frustrated with minority governments and are prone to giving a minority PM a chance at full power to prove himself. That's why Harper got his majority IMO.
> 
> I think the exception to this would be a PM who looked really incompetent and a viable contender would clearly look competent. I think it would take something like a Trudeau recession for that Conservative guy to be viable.


Trust me now and believe me later, if Harper does not win a majority he is done like dinner. Even if he only gets a minority he will step down... IMO.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Trust me now and believe me later, if Harper does not win a majority he is done like dinner. Even if he only gets a minority he will step down... IMO.


I think he's pretty much signaled that this will be his last election campaign. No surprises there.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I think he's pretty much signaled that this will be his last election campaign. No surprises there.



🏿🏾🏽🇨🇦


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Let's talk head coverings, voting & citizenship ceremonies...
> 
> 
> 
> Woman votes wearing Potato Sack on her head
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BREAKING: ANOTHER reporter votes in niqab -- and "this time it's worse"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bold from the link.
> 
> 
> 
> And, what's this?
> 
> 
> 
> Even Mulcair called niqab a form of "oppression," but Media Party ignored it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they wear them voluntarily!
> 
> 
> 
> Citizenship ceremony got 'heated' over niqab
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.



And your point is? Wear a niqab, wear a potato sack, wear a balaclava, wear a cowboy hat with bandana. NOBODY CARES. It's the ID along with matching addresses that they're looking for. This was never a legitimate election issue, it isn't now, and it won't be in the future either. Next issue please, like the economy for instance.


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## rgray




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## rgray




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## Macfury

Yes it is.



fjnmusic said:


> This was never a legitimate election issue...


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> That depends on who is abandoning who. If the party is abandoning him for bad advice, and it sure seems like he gave that for the old stock Canadians phrase, that comment fails.



Other way around. He is abandoning the CPC, apparently because of the involvement of the Ford family. Also, Lynton Crosby doesn't want to be associated with losing campaigns.


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## Macfury

Lynton Crosby wanted to be fully in charge of the campaign.



fjnmusic said:


> Other way around. He is abandoning the CPC, apparently because of the involvement of the Ford family. Also, Lynton Crosby doesn't want to be associated with losing campaigns.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Lynton Crosby wanted to be fully in charge of the campaign.



And who was the genius that allowed that to happen? Buck stops at the party leader. 


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## Macfury

It did not happen. That's why Crosby left.


fjnmusic said:


> And who was the genius that allowed that to happen? Buck stops at the party leader.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Crosby? What happened to Gretsky?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

rgray said:


>



Love it.


----------



## rgray

screature said:


> Trust me now and believe me later, if Harper does not win a majority he is done like dinner. Even if he only gets a minority he will step down... IMO.



will he jump or will he be pushed. In the still of evening in Ottawa you can hear the subtle sounds of the whetting and stropping as the long knives are being honed......


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> will he jump or will he be pushed. In the still of evening in Ottawa you can hear the subtle sounds of the whetting and stropping as the long knives are being honed......


That's the sound coming out of the bushes around Stornoway.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> You know you're in trouble when even the rats are abandoning ship.
> 
> Lynton Crosby abandons Harper | ThinkPol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny article, in that the quotes used to supposedly support the headline were actually plucked from the firm's september response to the rumors that they were ever involved in the Harper campaign. If Lynton Crosby was ever involved enough in Harper's campaign that you could really say that he's "left" it, the leaving happened before September 10th (the date that Mark Textor actually said all the things that thinkpol is quoting).

Crosby’s partner says firm is not involved in Conservative campaign


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Years later Cadman bites back - http://www.thenownewspaper.com/news/333100501.html?mobile=true

Ouch!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh man the partying in Chicago with hookers and Jim Flaherty scene is quite something. Good on Harper for his continuing support of this Con family. 

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...n-excerpt-from-mayor-rob-ford-uncontrollable/


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## SINC

Cowboy voter at advance poll was protesting niqab at citizenship ceremony - Edmonton - CBC News

Or vote for this:


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Cowboy voter at advance poll was protesting niqab at citizenship ceremony - Edmonton - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> Or vote for this:



The irony. As all these "protesters" soon discovered, is that there was nothing to protest about. The only thing Elections Canada cares about is that you have two pieces of idea with matching addresses. They're not customs officials, for gosh sakes. You don't need to go through an x-ray or anything like that. Much ado about nothing. Harper's forces shooting themselves in the foot about this actually appears to have brought His and the Cons poll numbers down substantially. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Cowboy voter at advance poll was protesting niqab at citizenship ceremony - Edmonton - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> Or vote for this:



Also, the issue is not and never was his bandana. It was the fact that he was bringing video recording equipment into the polling both, which is illegal.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/masked-man-edmonton-election-voting-1.3267816


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Also, the issue is not and never was his bandana. It was the fact that he was bringing video recording equipment into the polling both, which is illegal.
> 
> Masked cowboy voter irks Edmonton polling officials - Edmonton - CBC News


Surely you didn't miss the fact he was protesting against the niqab, did you? 

He gets it when he said . . .



> "We have a long tradition of civilized procedures, and I respect that, and if people come to this country and they want to change that, I'm going to fight them."


Good on him for that. It is time we stood up to forced change that goes against Canadian custom and culture.


----------



## eMacMan

Recent Harpocon ads are most intriguing. All those years of cutting taxes for the Harper's rich and corporate sponsors put Canada further in debt by almost $200 Billion$. So now the Harper is claiming he will further cut taxes and balance the budget. He can worship Ronnie all he wants but clearly he learned absolutely nothing from the total failure of Reaganomics. The with an incredibly twisted piece of logic he then goes on to say that Trudeau raising taxes will cause deficit spending.

And he wonders why he's slipping in the polls!


----------



## rgray

SINC said:


> It is time we stood up to forced change that goes against Canadian custom and culture.


Being decent and polite folk Canadians handle these migrants with a modicum of cultural sensitivity. However this is often not reciprocated. Maybe we should insist on a little reciprocity - that migrants be sensitive to Canadian cultural norms.


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## Macfury

Reaganomics was a success. Only when Bush repudiated it, did the economy suffer.



eMacMan said:


> Recent Harpocon ads are most intriguing. All those years of cutting taxes for the Harper's rich and corporate sponsors put Canada further in debt by almost $200 Billion$. So now the Harper is claiming he will further cut taxes and balance the budget. He can worship Ronnie all he wants but clearly he learned absolutely nothing from the total failure of Reaganomics. The with an incredibly twisted piece of logic he then goes on to say that Trudeau raising taxes will cause deficit spending.
> 
> And he wonders why he's slipping in the polls!
> 
> View attachment 62066


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Surely you didn't miss the fact he was protesting against the niqab, did you?
> 
> 
> 
> He gets it when he said . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good on him for that. It is time we stood up to forced change that goes against Canadian custom and culture.



Don, Canadian custom is to respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and embrace cultures from around the world as part of Canadian identity. The niqab is as Canadian as feather headdresses, turbans, kilts, and wooden shoes. Ever heard of the Canadian mosaic?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Don, Canadian custom is to respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and embrace cultures from around the world as part of Canadian identity.


Where does it say you need to embrace those cultures as part of the Canadian identity? Quote it for us.


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Where does it say you need to embrace those cultures as part of the Canadian identity? Quote it for us.



You need to not persecute people based on their differences. Check out Section 15 on Equality Rights, amigo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

That is not what you said before. You said that we need to "embrace cultures from around the world as part of Canadian identity." You're grasping at straws here.



fjnmusic said:


> You need to not persecute people based on their differences. Check out Section 15 on Equality Rights, amigo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Don, Canadian custom is to respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and embrace cultures from around the world as part of Canadian identity. The niqab is as Canadian as feather headdresses, turbans, kilts, and wooden shoes. Ever heard of the Canadian mosaic?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry Frank, but you are so full of it your eyes are brown. The Canada I knew and loved for the first 40 years of my life has been hijacked by do-gooders and over demanding immigrants that should have been stopped dead in their tracks. Come here. Adapt. That is what should have happened. Instead I feel like I am at a meeting in the UN building when out and about now. I despise it and always will.


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## CubaMark

SINC said:


> The Canda I knew and loved for the first 40 years of my life has been hijacked by do-gooders and over demanding immigrants that should have been stopped dead in their tracks.


It's unfortunate that so many bitch about them damn immigrants, but reserve their wrath when it comes to the corporations and politicians who give them the freedom to exploit, pollute and undermine Canadians' economic interests...

I guess it's just easier to be outraged at the "strange" or "foreign" human beings, than to grasp the complexities of international economics.


----------



## BigDL

Here is an interesting quote from the comment section of the Articles posted regard Cowboy Ken Finlayson



Comments said:


> SKM957
> People who pull stunts like this at the Polls are spitting on the graves of those who died for their freedom. Fools.


I'm glad the Cowboy voted. I've encouraged everybody, I can, to vote. We get a very great country for the price of paying taxes, serving on juries, and voting. Not much of an obligation.

Attempting to disrupt, or hoping to disrupt voting to make a childish point is just that, childish.

Every time Harper or any other Prime Minister has sent the military into harms way it is always stated "to protect our democratic ways."

Cowboy Ken Finlayson enjoyed his freedom and Zunera Ishaq enjoyed hers. Who had to fight to maintain our democratic ways?


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## CubaMark

*Harper government withholds millions budgeted for crime prevention*
*Centrepiece crime program, touted in pre-election period, 'lapses' millions in promised spending*

The Harper government has withheld millions of dollars for crime-prevention programs — the same programs it cited in pre-election events as proof of its tough-on-crime policies.

About $28 million in promised spending for the National Crime Prevention Strategy was allowed to lapse over the last three years, an internal document shows.

And the amount of unspent money has been rising each year, to more than 30 per cent of the 2014-15 budget, or about $12 million returned to the treasury. The lapse level has tripled since 2012-13, when it was 10 per cent.

The problem was described as a "pattern of recurring lapse in program spending" in a June 11 briefing note alerting Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney to the unspent funds. CBC News obtained the document under the Access to Information Act.

The National Crime Prevention Strategy, with an annual budget of about $41 million, pays for programs with the provinces to help youth and aboriginal people who are at high risk for committing crimes.

The Harper government has come under fire previously for other instances of lapsed spending, including:


About $1 billion in lapsed spending over five years at Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, according to a Privy Council Office accounting on Nov. 28. Aboriginal Affairs later said the money had been rolled over into future years.
Foreign Affairs failed to spend almost half of the $129 million budgeted for "strengthening security at missions abroad" in 2013-14, leaving $69 million on the table. Significant sums were lapsed in the two previous years as well.
Last fall, The Canadian Press reported that Veterans Affairs Canada returned $1.13 billion to the federal treasury in unspent funds since the Conservatives came to power in 2006.
In 2013-14, Employment and Social Development Canada fell short by $97.1 million of its promised spending for 16 major programs, the largest such departmental lapse in any of the five years since the 2008 economic meltdown.
The government-wide level of lapsed funds has been rising sharply since the Conservatives came to power in 2006, approaching 12 per cent of all budgeted money in 2010-11 at the peak.​
(CBC)


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That is not what you said before. You said that we need to "embrace cultures from around the world as part of Canadian identity." You're grasping at straws here.



And you're just making ****e up. Don't tell me what I said and don't try to infer what I meant. Yes I said "embrace other cultures" (my words, not official) and when you look at the big picture, that is EXACTLY what we as Canadians do. People in kilts and people in turbans can live and work side by side. And while you're at, why don't you actually read Section 15. It's not that long. I'm sure you could finish it in under an hour.


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Sorry Frank, but you are so full of it your eyes are brown. The Canada I knew and loved for the first 40 years of my life has been hijacked by do-gooders and over demanding immigrants that should have been stopped dead in their tracks. Come here. Adapt. That is what should have happened. Instead I feel like I am at a meeting in the UN building when out and about now. I despise it and always will.



And where exactly did all those Canadians of your youth come from? By rights, the only "real" Canadians would be First Nations people, and it's not like they're getting a lot of respect. 1100 missing and murdered aboriginal women since 1980 and Harper doesn't even see a cause for your concern. Apparently the Canada of your youth is not the Canada of my youth, where multiculturalism is something to be celebrated. Have you never been to Heritage Days?


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## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Here is an interesting quote from the comment section of the Articles posted regard Cowboy Ken Finlayson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad the Cowboy voted. I've encouraged everybody, I can, to vote. We get a very great country for the price of paying taxes, serving on juries, and voting. Not much of an obligation.
> 
> 
> 
> Attempting to disrupt, or hoping to disrupt voting to make a childish point is just that, childish.
> 
> 
> 
> Every time Harper or any other Prime Minister has sent the military into harms way it is always stated "to protect our democratic ways."
> 
> 
> 
> Cowboy Ken Finlayson enjoyed his freedom and Zunera Ishaq enjoyed hers. Who had to fight to maintain our democratic ways?



Except that cowboy Ken Finlayson was trying to video record the voting process, which actually IS illegal. Imagine that: the immigrant obeys the law, while the cowboy breaks it.


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> And where exactly did all those Canadians of your youth come from? By rights, the only "real" Canadians would be First Nations people, and it's not like they're getting a lot of respect. 1100 missing and murdered aboriginal women since 1980 and Harper doesn't even see a cause for your concern. Apparently the Canada of your youth is not the Canada of my youth, where multiculturalism is something to be celebrated. Have you never been to Heritage Days?


Nope, never.


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## Macfury

Don't make things up--we don't need to either embrace or internalize their cultures or differences. It may be your choice to blindly internalize all differences, but it doesn't imply some heightened state of morality.

Your attempt to lecture me about legislation is pretty funny, although a poor deflection.



fjnmusic said:


> And you're just making ****e up. Don't tell me what I said and don't try to infer what I meant. Yes I said "embrace other cultures" (my words, not official) and when you look at the big picture, that is EXACTLY what we as Canadians do. People in kilts and people in turbans can live and work side by side. And while you're at, why don't you actually read Section 15. It's not that long. I'm sure you could finish it in under an hour.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Nope, never.



Now that's hardly surprising.


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Don't make things up--we don't need to either embrace or internalize their cultures or differences. It may be your choice to blindly internalize all differences, but it doesn't imply some heightened state of morality.
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempt to lecture me about legislation is pretty funny, although a poor deflection.



I guess, no, you don't have to embrace anything if you don't want to. That's your right. But you don't have the right to persecute others, or chastise others if they do embrace other cultures, unless it imposes an actual threat to you. "I just don't like facial coverings" is not a sufficient reason for persecution a Muslim woman, for example, and two women in Canada were attacked very recently by strangers for exactly that reason. Bigotry and hate speech are not protected by the charter. The right of your fist ends where the right of my nose begins. 


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## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> I guess, no, you don't have to embrace anything if you don't want to. That's your right. But you don't have the right to persecute others, or chastise others if they do embrace other cultures, unless it imposes an actual threat to you. "I just don't like facial coverings" is not a sufficient reason for persecution a Muslim woman, for example, and two women in Canada were attacked very recently by strangers for exactly that reason. Bigotry and hate speech are not protected by the charter. The right of your fist ends where the right of my nose begins.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Valid points, Frank. As an immigrant to Canada, I have adapted to many of Canada's cultural customs, ignored some, and maintained many of my American and Jewish traditions. Except for two swastikas put on my Memorial University office door by some hate monger, and the questioning look of the Citizenship Judge watching me remain silent when I had to swear allegiance to the Queen and all her heirs at my citizenship oath ceremony, I have not experienced any problems with spending more than half of my life here in Canada.

Still, I don't want to deny someone else to add to the multi-cultural mixed salad that is Canada today. It adds to our richness as a country.

Paix, mon ami.


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## Macfury

I don't embrace every culture, like every cuisine or enjoy everyone's music-there's no connection between that and attacking Muslim women. 



fjnmusic said:


> I guess, no, you don't have to embrace anything if you don't want to. That's your right. But you don't have the right to persecute others, or chastise others if they do embrace other cultures, unless it imposes an actual threat to you. "I just don't like facial coverings" is not a sufficient reason for persecution a Muslim woman, for example, and two women in Canada were attacked very recently by strangers for exactly that reason. Bigotry and hate speech are not protected by the charter. The right of your fist ends where the right of my nose begins.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Valid points, Frank. As an immigrant to Canada, I have adapted to many of Canada's cultural customs, ignored some, and maintained many of my American and Jewish traditions. Except for two swastikas put on my Memorial University office door by some hate monger, and the questioning look of the Citizenship Judge watching me remain silent when I had to swear allegiance to the Queen and all her heirs at my citizenship oath ceremony, I have not experienced any problems with spending more than half of my life here in Canada.
> 
> Still, I don't want to deny someone else to add to the multi-cultural mixed salad that is Canada today. It adds to our richness as a country.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


I live in a mining community. A lot of the people I know immigrated on their own or in tow with their parents as far back as the 1940s. German, Ukrainian, French, Italian, Polish, Schweizer-Deutch, Mandarin and Scottish are languages that flourish here even now, and I dare say if one looks hard enough he could find at least one or two examples of every one of the 40+ languages spoken by the various immigrants to this little corner of Alberta. Left out the Algonquin dialect spoken by many of the local Blackfoot Indians.

BTW I am surprised you found seating close enough to the citizenship judge, that he could see whether or not you were swearing allegiance. There were nearly 100 at my ceremony speaking a total of somewhere around 30 languages. With all of the families along for the ride the courtroom which seats 250 was bursting at the seams.


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## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I live in a mining community. A lot of the people I know immigrated on their own or in tow with their parents as far back as the 1940s. German, Ukrainian, French, Italian, Polish, Schweizer-Deutch, Mandarin and Scots are language that flourish here to this day, and I dare say if one looks hard enough he could find at least one or two examples of every one of the 40+ languages spoken by the various immigrants to this little corner of Alberta. Left out the Algonquin dialect spoken by many of the local Blackfoot Indians.
> 
> BTW I am surprised you found seating close enough to the citizenship judge, that he could see whether or not you were swearing allegiance. There were nearly 100 at my ceremony speaking a total of somewhere around 30 languages.


Bob, I was 5 feet away from the judge, since I wanted to make sure that she saw what I was not saying along with what I was saying. I also sang O Canada louder than any other person in my group. Paix, mon ami.


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## skippythebushkangaroo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GMrVeUoXHx8


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Shredders outside of PMO all day today.


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## SINC

Ahem . . .

Hicks on Biz: He's unlikable, but Stephen Harper will again be prime minister


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## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> Bob, I was 5 feet away from the judge, since I wanted to make sure that she saw what I was not saying along with what I was saying. I also sang O Canada louder than any other person in my group. Paix, mon ami.



I do the same at church. There are some parts of the creed that I just cannot say because I don't believe them. And that's just fine. Funny thing about the whole niqab deal: The Harper drones were complaining about not being able to see somebody's lips when they recite the oath. Based on your account, seems that isn't even necessary.  🏾 


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Ahem . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Hicks on Biz: He's unlikable, but Stephen Harper will again be prime minister



I wouldn't count on that. Even former Prime Minister Mulroney does not endorse Harper. People have been duped by a Reform Party fool masquerading as a Conservative and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.


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## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> I wouldn't count on that. Even former Prime Minister Mulroney does not endorse Harper. People have been duped by a Reform Party fool masquerading as a Conservative and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Editorial: Conservatives best choice for Sask


----------



## rgray

fjnmusic said:


> I wouldn't count on that. Even former Prime Minister Mulroney does not endorse Harper. People have been duped by a Reform Party fool masquerading as a Conservative and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mulroney was a Progressive Conservative. An entirely different 'animal' from the Harpo lineage which is actually Reform, via Alliance which tried to brand itself with the PC heritage By calling itself "Conservative" when Peter MacKay sold out what was left of the PCs to Harpo.

Turns out "Progressive" was an important distinction. The current CPC brand should really call itself Regressive.


----------



## SINC

Why Canada's Prime Minister Should Be Re-Elected


----------



## SINC

Editorial: Conservatives best choice to manage the economy


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## Macfury

"Progressive" really does mean regressive--a return to tribalism by increments. 



rgray said:


> Mulroney was a Progressive Conservative..


----------



## eMacMan

rgray said:


> Mulroney was a Progressive Conservative. An entirely different 'animal' from the Harpo lineage which is actually Reform, via Alliance which tried to brand itself with the PC heritage By calling itself "Conservative" when Peter MacKay sold out what was left of the PCs to Harpo.
> 
> Turns out "Progressive" was an important distinction. The current CPC brand should really call itself Regressive.


Not much left of the Reform ideas either.
Less Government - Gonzo
Transparency - Gonzo
Integrity - Gonzo to the nth power
Elected Senators - Gonzo
Fiscal responsibility - Gonzo

All that remains is a determination to run Canada for the benefit of the party's corporate sponsors, ordinary taxpayers be damned!


----------



## CubaMark

*“Throwout,” by William Thorsell*

_[I am on a list of people who receive periodic emails from William Thorsell, who was the Globe and Mail’s editor-in-chief from 1989 to 2000 and the CEO of the Royal Ontario Museum for a decade after. William sends out occasional thoughts on events, design, urban life and other preoccupations. The other day he sent this, calling it “the editorial I’d write” — about the current federal election campaign — “if I were still writing them.” I’ve checked, and he consented to let me publish his article here. This is William Thorsell’s argument, not my own, but I offer it as interesting contrast to what his successors at the Globe have produced. — PW]_

*Excerpt:*

In recessionary times, he is running a primary budget surplus (revenues over program spending) of some 1.4 per cent of GDP — an elementary error in Economics 101, less a matter of ideology than incompetence. Governments should not pull money out of an economy facing strong economic headwinds: We might refer to Stephen “Hoover” in this context, after the hapless U.S. president in the 1930s.

You do not cut the national sales tax in favour of targeted tax goodies in your party’s political interest. Nor do you do so to reduce Ottawa’s capacity to fund grievously inadequate infrastructure, undermining productivity and aggravating social divides. You do not claim success in energy policy having seen no new significant pipelines approved or built on your watch, either domestically or in our interest in the United States. Nor do you sit out the global conversation on climate change in words and action.

You do not exacerbate income inequality by providing significant new tax breaks for the wealthy in tax-free savings and investment accounts.

You do not fan cultural conflict in Canada in the face of unprecedented cultural diversity and high rates of immigration. Canada’s generally successful experience in accommodating diversity needs nurturing attention, not a matador’s incendiary skills.​
(Full article at: Paul Wells / Medium)​


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## Macfury

Thorsell sounds like a crusty old fart. He's wrong on all those points because he's seeing the world through a sad, perpetually angry, "progressive" lens.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Thorsell sounds like a crusty old fart. He's wrong on all those points because he's seeing the world through a sad, perpetually angry, "progressive" lens.



That was a pretty short and dismissive knee jerk reaction to a thoughtful and considered post. 


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## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> Mulroney was a Progressive Conservative. An entirely different 'animal' from the Harpo lineage which is actually Reform, via Alliance which tried to brand itself with the PC heritage By calling itself "Conservative" when Peter MacKay sold out what was left of the PCs to Harpo.
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out "Progressive" was an important distinction. The current CPC brand should really call itself Regressive.



My favorite was when they were temporarily known as the Conservative Reform Alliance Party, or CRAP for short. Would have been better truth in advertising.


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## Macfury

I've found that if I take it on point by point, CM just leaves EhMac for a few days. I believe the letter was heartfelt, but not thoughtful.



fjnmusic said:


> That was a pretty short and dismissive knee jerk reaction to a thoughtful and considered post.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I've found that if I take it on point by point, CM just leaves EhMac for a few days.


I was hospitalized and in recovery for a couple of weeks in September, is that the period to which you are referring?


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> That was a pretty short and dismissive knee jerk reaction to a thoughtful and considered post.


It was a dumb post. His entire premise is false. We are not in a recession, and tax cuts have resulted in even more government revenues than expected, so much so that the budget was balanced a year ahead of schedule.


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## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> I was hospitalized and in recovery for a couple of weeks in September, is that the period to which you are referring?



Oooh, snap!


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> It was a dumb post. His entire premise is false. We are not in a recession, and tax cuts have resulted in even more government revenues than expected, so much so that the budget was balanced a year ahead of schedule.



I believe that's what you call an "accidental" balanced budget, to borrow a phrase, due to a one time bond cash in as well as raiding EI funds and shorting seniors' and vets' pensions.


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> I believe that's what you call an "accidental" balanced budget, to borrow a phrase, due to a one time bond cash in as well as raiding EI funds and shorting seniors' and vets' pensions.


You could call it that, if you wanted to make up some crap that wasn't true.

The budget wasn't "accidentally" balanced, the plan for higher revenue through lower taxes just worked faster than expected. It's called under-promising and over-delivering.


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I was hospitalized and in recovery for a couple of weeks in September, is that the period to which you are referring?


Not at all. It's fairly consistent. September was better than usual!


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> You could call it that, if you wanted to make up some crap that wasn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> The budget wasn't "accidentally" balanced, the plan for higher revenue through lower taxes just worked faster than expected. It's called under-promising and over-delivering.



Is raising the EI funds part of the "crap" to which you refer? Paying out less EI funds and transferring funds to "balance" the budget in an election year is either accidental good fortune or premeditated manipulation. Take your pick. 

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/7113322



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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Is raising the EI funds part of the "crap" to which you refer? Paying out less EI funds and transferring funds to "balance" the budget in an election year is either accidental good fortune or premeditated manipulation. Take your pick.
> 
> Use Of EI Funds By Tories To Help Balance Budget Draws Criticism


Nice try. You're talking about a different fiscal year. The recently announced surplus was for the end of 2014-15. The $1.8B from EI is a contingency for 2015-2016. Seeing as how we are already already $5B in surplus for that fiscal year, that is ALSO under-promising and over delivering.


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## heavyall

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 62138


Who is the dummy that is drawing those cartoons you post? He appears to be completely ignorant of any actual facts.

The Canadian Middle class is among the wealthiest 10% of all people on the planet. And a lower dollar helps that because we can export our products and services at a lower price than our competitors, yet still have more in our pocket after exchange.


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## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Not at all. It's fairly consistent. September was better than usual!


If I believed in a god, I'd thank her that I don't measure my worth by your metrics.


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## Macfury

So what did you think of Z-Nation on Friday?



CubaMark said:


> If I believed in a god, I'd thank her that I don't measure my worth by your metrics.


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo looks for faces he can recognize in the "pitchers" and up they go. 



heavyall said:


> Who is the dummy that is drawing those cartoons you post? He appears to be completely ignorant of any actual facts.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## screature

CubaMark said:


> It's unfortunate that so many bitch about them damn immigrants, but reserve their wrath when it comes to the corporations and politicians who give them the freedom to exploit, pollute and undermine Canadians' economic interests...
> 
> *I guess it's just easier to be outraged *at the "strange" or "foreign" human beings, than to grasp *the complexities of international economics.*


Diplomacy and accepting the fact that we live in a global village. But what does that mean? In most parts of the world we don't share the same point of view.

Just one example, some people seem to think it is better to be an outlier and go it on your own when it comes to economics and international relations. That does seem to work for some countries with a small geographic region (far smaller than most Canadian provinces) and much more densely populated than Canada.

The problem with such theories is that Sweden, for example, is VASTLY different from Canada in so, so many ways. We cannot willy nilly adopt other foreign counties ways and expect them to work here.

We need *made in Canada *solutions to our problems cut and dry. And IMO that means negotiating with the global village and not sticking our heads in the sand and hope it will all go away. We absolutely need to be part of the TPP or we will be economically isolated. That being said, the devil is in the details and that is what is yet to come.

Time will tell.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

WTF is wrong with you????


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

http://youtu.be/s77VJ3BaXxk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## screature

Cripes you can't even embed your video links???

How the f**k lazy are you??!!!

You are such a troll and take so much pleasure in it. You must have to vomit every night just to get rid of the excess bile.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Leadership


----------



## screature

Isn't it interesting that those who oppose the government attack adds are exactly the same people who are simply posting "editorial" cartoons and other disparaging images and videos with nothing to say for themselves.

Pathetic laziness.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## fjnmusic

Leger appears to give the Liberals a commanding lead. We shall see, as Dr. G likes to say. One day to go. 










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rgray




----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


>



You know, it just occurred to me today that the Harper-Cons had this rather mean-spirited strategy right from the start. They always referred to the Liberal leader as Justin, not Mr. Trudeau. And then right from the early days they had the focus group ad with he's JUST not ready. Get it? Just, as in Justin, hence the focus on his first name. In the end I believe this strategy backfired, but in any event, I don't know why I hadn't noticed it before. They could have said "He's not ready"; there is no logical reason they needed to included the word "just" in that statement. Very clever. 


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Yup a side dig at Prime Minister Trudeau's Just Society. Harper hates PM Trudeau I. 

It didn't work. 

That's why we're about to experience Prime Minister Trudeau II.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Nice piece from the National Post - yes that's right the same paper and chain newspaper owner that endorsed the thugs this week. 

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...atives-embrace-the-fords-humiliate-themselves


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Leger appears to give the Liberals a commanding lead. We shall see, as Dr. G likes to say. One day to go.
> 
> View attachment 62194
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


We are all going to have to wait for the results from BC, I think, to get a sense of who is going to be our PM. Yes, we shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice piece from the National Post - yes that's right the same paper and chain newspaper owner that endorsed the thugs this week.
> 
> Chris Selley: Desperate Conservatives embrace the Fords, humiliate themselves


Harper has sunk to a new low - he is hanging with alky-junkies!!!! My mother always said "show me your friends and I'll show you who you are" We can see who Harpo is now.


----------



## Macfury

EKos has upped its polling samples and run parallel sampling on different questions and different methods, but its latest poll continues to show a statistical dead heat:












> And the Winner is… We Don’t Know
> 
> EVIDENCE POINTS TO LONG MONDAY NIGHT NAIL-BITER
> 
> [Ottawa – October 17, 2015] We have upped our game in trying to discern the winner of what is shaping up to be a historically important federal election. We have run parallel HD-IVR and live interviewer surveys. We have significantly increased the sample size in the home stretch. We have double- and triple-checked the sample diagnostics. We have even done formal experiments with different ballot questions. Despite all of this, we still see the final outcome as very fuzzy.
> 
> Nothing is much different in this more richly resourced polling of the last couple of days. At 33.7 points, the Liberals remain statistically tied with the Conservatives who are just a fraction of a point behind at 33.3 points. At 21.9 points, the NDP is not a serious contender for the lead, but is still likely to be a major player in the next Parliament. Our two-day roll looks like our three-day roll and everything is moving within the margin of errors. At this stage, we believe that either the Liberals or the Conservatives will achieve a slender minority.
> 
> The demographic and regional variations are modest but worth noting. Quebec seems to be a pretty tight and newly fluid three- (and maybe four-) way race with the NDP holding a modest advantage. Ontario is leaning Liberal, but there are a plethora of virtually tied contests (particularly in the 905 region) that are uncertain at this stage. British Columbia is once again an uninterpretable mix of three and, in some cases, four parties.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, he's so well qualified.

The truth about Trudeau | Furey | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## fjnmusic

I think nine years of the accidental Harper government has been more than enough.


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> I think nine years of the accidental Harper government has been more than enough.


You still don't get it do you? Being elected PM for three consecutive terms is hardly accidental, unlike Notley.


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## BigDL

I am looking forward to the results from the only polls that truly count tomorrow evening.

I shall have lots of "beer and popcorn," in the larder, in anticipation of a long evening/early morning, before "finalizing" results of 338 elections come in tomorrow.

I would suggest, if you have not already voted, that make a firm comment to go to your polling place, cast a vote. Have your say even if, your say is, none of the above/spoiled ballot.

Tomorrow, in the early going of results at least, the poll results shall be frequently interrupted by the Blue Jays' game. Go Blue Jays.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I am looking forward to the results from the only polls that truly count tomorrow evening.
> 
> I shall have lots of "beer and popcorn," in the larder, in anticipation of a long evening/early morning, before "finalizing" results of 338 elections come in tomorrow.
> 
> I would suggest, if you have not already voted, that make a firm comment to go to your polling place, cast a vote. Have your say even if, your say is, none of the above/spoiled ballot.
> 
> Tomorrow, in the early going of results at least, the poll results shall be frequently interrupted by the Blue Jays' game. Go Blue Jays.


As a political junkie, I await tomorrow's results with great anticipation. As an avid baseball fan, I am pulling for both the Jays and NY Mets to take it all and meet in the World Series. 

I have already voted, and it shall be a close race in my district. 

We shall see.. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

I truly hope that this thread will not crumble with "you were wrong" and "I was right" sorts of jabs. Once the voters of Canada have had their say, let's try and keep to the high road here in ehMacLand. Whatever the results, the country was know as Canada will not crumble into "doom and gloom".

Paix, mes amis.


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## Macfury

Those belong in the "Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen" thread.



Dr.G. said:


> I truly hope that this thread will not crumble with "you were wrong" and "I was right" sorts of jabs.


----------



## fjnmusic

"The current government has lost the moral authority to govern." Boy, when even your friends and colleagues are saying you're not the right man for the job, maybe you're just not the right man for the job. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...er/article26864767/?cmpid=rss1&click=sf_globe


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## Macfury

Or maybe it's just a guy.



fjnmusic said:


> "The current government has lost the moral authority to govern." Boy, when even your friends and colleagues are saying you're not the right man for the job, maybe you're just not the right man for the job.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> You still don't get it do you? Being elected PM for three consecutive terms is hardly accidental, unlike Notley.



You're being obtuse, Don. Harper's two minority/one majority wins are just as accidental as the Alberta election, using your logic. Notley's government only won (with a good-size majority, mind you) because the vote on the right was split. Harper's wins were the result of the votes on the left being split. The difference between you and I is that I would use the words "conniving and manipulative" instead of the word "accidental" that you seem to favor. 

Perhaps if you could explain why you feel the Notley gov't's win was "accidental" (even though it was a sizeable majority) your point of view might have more credibility. Three and a half years is a long time to hold your breath. 


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## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> I truly hope that this thread will not crumble with "you were wrong" and "I was right" sorts of jabs. Once the voters of Canada have had their say, let's try and keep to the high road here in ehMacLand. Whatever the results, the country was know as Canada will not crumble into "doom and gloom".
> 
> 
> 
> Paix, mes amis.



Amen. And shalom. And as-salamu alaykum. 


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## heavyall

Macfury said:


> EKos has upped its polling samples and run parallel sampling on different questions and different methods, but its latest poll continues to show a statistical dead heat:



The most interesting part of the EKOS polling is the part where they survey people who *already voted*:










That is certainly not what most people thought was happening when they saw increased turnout at the advanced polls.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Or maybe it's just a guy.



More than one guy. Even Brian Mulroney, a former Progressive Conservative Prime Minister, is endorsing Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party this time out. When you count the Ford brothers as some of your biggest supporters (even though you have no tolerance for drugs supposedly), you know you're in trouble. 


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## Macfury

Why wouldn't he? The guy sold out Conservatism with reckless abandon. He was always a "progressive."



fjnmusic said:


> Even Brian Mulroney, a former Progressive Conservative Prime Minister, is endorsing Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party this time out.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Amen. And shalom. And as-salamu alaykum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Merci, Frank. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> More than one guy. Even Brian Mulroney, a former Progressive Conservative Prime Minister, is endorsing Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party this time out.



Is that right...


Brian Mulroney shelves criticism of PM Harper in rare stump speech | CTV Montreal News



> Former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney charmed a West Island Conservative audience Wednesday evening, offering a rare speech endorsing the local candidate.
> *Mulroney also enthusiastically endorsed Prime Minister Stephen Harper *just months after he openly criticized the Conservative leader.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> You're being obtuse, Don. Harper's two minority/one majority wins are just as accidental as the Alberta election, using your logic. Notley's government only won (with a good-size majority, mind you) because the vote on the right was split. Harper's wins were the result of the votes on the left being split. The difference between you and I is that I would use the words "conniving and manipulative" instead of the word "accidental" that you seem to favor.
> 
> Perhaps if you could explain why you feel the Notley gov't's win was "accidental" (even though it was a sizeable majority) your point of view might have more credibility. Three and a half years is a long time to hold your breath.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sure thing. The majority of Albertans who by the way were NOT Dippers wanted revenge for the actions of the Cons in general and Prentice in particular, so they stuck it up his bum by voting NDP. What they did not realize is that far too many voters took that vengeful action and accidently elected the most inexperienced and union controlled party in the province. Now they are saying whoops. I hear it all day long from hundreds of readers who openly admit their mistake by voting for the Dippers. And that's a fact, Jack.


----------



## SINC

And now a look at what will happen to the economy Monday, given various possible results.

Kevin O'Leary on election scenarios, from 'worst outcome' to 'really interesting' | Election 2015


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Harper's two minority/one majority wins are just as accidental as the Alberta election


Harper increased his support in four consecutive elections. As far as I can tell by going through the election records, no other leader in Canada has ever done that (in power or in opposition). "Trudeaumania" never even did that. That doesn't happen by "accident".


----------



## SINC

Hmm, didn't know this.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Sure thing. The majority of Albertans who by the way were NOT Dippers wanted revenge for the actions of the Cons in general and Prentice in particular, so they stuck it up his bum by voting NDP. What they did not realize is that far too many voters took that vengeful action and accidently elected the most inexperienced and union controlled party in the province. Now they are saying whoops. I hear it all day long from hundreds of readers who openly admit their mistake by voting for the Dippers. And that's a fact, Jack.



Guess that's why you shouldn't drink before you vote. Or cut off your nose to spite you face. In any event, the deed is done. Yes they are inexperienced, but so was mailroom boy once upon a time. Only one way to get experienced. We shall see. I am more optimistic than you are about Alberta, and much can change in three and a half years. 


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Harper increased his support in four consecutive elections. As far as I can tell by going through the election records, no other leader in Canada has ever done that (in power or in opposition). "Trudeaumania" never even did that. That doesn't happen by "accident".



Great theory, but minority-minority-majority-minority (or worse, opposition) is not exactly an inspiring success story any longer. Harper peaked a few years ago. Should've got out while the getting was good. Now it's just a downward slide toward obscurity. Happens when leaders try to hold on to the reigns of power too long. 


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## rgray




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## rgray




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## rgray




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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Great theory, but minority-minority-majority-minority (or worse, opposition) is not exactly an inspiring success story any longer.


It's not a theory. One of the greatest political successes in Canadian history. The more absolutely sure the opposition was that his time was up, the better he did when the votes were counted.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> It's not a theory. One of the greatest political successes in Canadian history. The more absolutely sure the opposition was that his time was up, the better he did when the votes were counted.



It's one of the poorest "success" stories in Canadian history. People did not trust Harper in 2006, so he was crowned PM with a minority gov't. Again, he got a minority two years later in 2008, because people still didn't really trust him. Five years after becoming PM, in 2011, he finally gets a majority. That's a hella long apprenticeship for such an inspiring leader. This year was his election to lose. If he's such a success story, he should be cleaning up this time around. Instead, he faces heading a minority gov't at best, certainly no ringing endorsement for such an inspirational man of vision. More likely he will lose tomorrow, and instead of vowing to continue representing the good people of Etobicoke, he will probably disappear the same way his buddy Jim Prentice did five months earlier in Alberta. I have a hard time understanding how an intelligent guy like you can see this as a success story. 


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## Macfury

I'll bet you do!



fjnmusic said:


> I have a hard time understanding how an intelligent guy like you can see this as a success story.


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## skippythebushkangaroo




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## skippythebushkangaroo

Good morning all. I'm just getting ready to assist our local candidate to get the vote out. I've been looking forward to this for 4 years.


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## skippythebushkangaroo

http://youtu.be/Brs6Xr9yzOY


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## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


>


According to the "Manual of Animal Husbandry" for what Harpo wants to do to his "sheep" it is more effective if he put the sheep's hind legs in the rubber boots with him........


----------



## rgray

LAST DAY of Harpo's reign of terror..... :clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

National Post comment editor Andrew Coyne resigns over election endorsement | Toronto Star

A man of integrity.


----------



## Macfury

Coyne predicts the "Airheads" will win with 143 seats.



Dr.G. said:


> National Post comment editor Andrew Coyne resigns over election endorsement | Toronto Star
> 
> A man of integrity.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> National Post comment editor Andrew Coyne resigns over election endorsement | Toronto Star
> 
> A man of integrity.


And a guy who gets it:



> *His tweets included his conclusion that “the Conservatives don’t deserve to be re-elected, and the Liberals don’t deserve a majority.”*


----------



## CubaMark

Just found out that my wife has to travel six hours to the only goddamn doctor authorized by the Canadian government to conduct $3000-peso medical exams for a goddamn visa (that was instituted in 2010 after years of not needing one, since Mexico is a NAFTA 'partner') and now our visit home is in jeopardy. 

Yet another reason he and his group need to be tossed out of office.


----------



## SINC

Hmmm, might want to think about this . . .


----------



## eMacMan

A lot of local voters ambushed by the unfair elections act. Turns out if you are not on the official list a drivers license is not sufficient proof of identity despite what the election literature stated. 

Here and every place, where PO boxes are the norm, you also need some form of ID with your physical address on it.

Since the poling station is about half a mile from home and I walked over, you can bet there was no way the Harper was getting my vote nor that of anyone else caught in that ambush.

Interestingly no one asked whether I was a Canadian citizen.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> And a guy who gets it:


True. Still, thinking back to PM Lester Pearson, it is possible for a Liberal minority government to do great things. PM Pearson never had a majority in the Canadian House of Commons, but he brought in many of Canada's major updated social programs, including universal health care, the Canada Pension Plan, and Canada Student Loans, and he instituted a new national flag, the Maple Leaf flag. He also instituted the 40-hour work week, two weeks vacation time, and a new minimum wage. :clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Just found out that my wife has to travel six hours to the only goddamn doctor authorized by the Canadian government to conduct $3000-peso medical exams for a goddamn visa (that was instituted in 2010 after years of not needing one, since Mexico is a NAFTA 'partner') and now our visit home is in jeopardy.
> 
> Yet another reason he and his group need to be tossed out of office.


Sorry to hear of this difficult situation, Mark.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> A lot of local voters ambushed by the unfair elections act. Turns out if you are not on the official list a drivers license is not sufficient proof of identity despite what the election literature stated.
> 
> Here and every place, where PO boxes are the norm, you also need some form of ID with your physical address on it.
> 
> Since the poling station is about half a mile from home and I walked over, you can bet there was no way the Harper was getting my vote nor that of anyone else caught in that ambush.
> 
> Interestingly no one asked whether I was a Canadian citizen.


Well, at least you did vote, Bob. :clap::clap:


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## Dr.G.

Very true .............


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## Macfury

However, they are elected by good people who vote as well.


----------



## Vandave

Everybody told me that we need to vote for change. I looked for that on the ballet and it wasn't there so I voted for Harper. Elections Canada should get on that.


----------



## Macfury

What about real change for a change that you can believe in for a change?



Vandave said:


> Everybody told me that we need to vote for change. I looked for that on the ballet and it wasn't there so I voted for Harper. Elections Canada should get on that.


----------



## rgray

Dr.G. said:


> Very true .............


Can’t see how one can be called a good person and not vote,


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> What about real change for a change that you can believe in for a change?


Not on the list either.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> Not on the list either.


Elizabeth May?


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Here and every place, where PO boxes are the norm, you also need some form of ID with your physical address on it.


That has always been the case, nothing was changed in that regard.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> Elizabeth May


I didn't see a box labelled 'Angry Drunk' either.

I wonder if this will be her last election. Presumably for sure if she loses her seat which seems unlikely. But even if she keeps it, their party has stagnated since she took over. How can you not increase your vote total or percent at a time with a lot of opposition to pipelines and oil sands, plus a significant Liberal lead over the Conservatives. If there really was a viable green party, now should have been the time for a breakthrough. Obviously that's not happening and maybe they need to look in the mirror and reflect on their sins.

My riding is North Burnaby which is ground zero for the BC pipeline protest opposition. I will laugh hard if the Conservatives take the riding. There will be so much butt hurt from the NDP claiming Green splitting.


----------



## Macfury

Elizabeth May is really counting on electing Jo-Ann Roberts in Victoria this election, so she won't be alone in Ottawa.

I will be fascinated to look at the effects of vote splitting this election.





Vandave said:


> I didn't see a box labelled 'Angry Drunk' either.
> 
> I wonder if this will be her last election. Presumably for sure if she loses her seat which seems unlikely. But even if she keeps it, their party has stagnated since she took over. How can you not increase your vote total or percent at a time with a lot of opposition to pipelines and oil sands, plus a significant Liberal lead over the Conservatives. If there really was a viable green party, now should have been the time for a breakthrough. Obviously that's not happening and maybe they need to look in the mirror and reflect on their sins.
> 
> My riding is North Burnaby which is ground zero for the BC pipeline protest opposition. I will laugh hard if the Conservatives take the riding. There will be so much butt hurt from the NDP claiming Green splitting.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

.


----------



## FeXL

Bride & I just returned from the polls.

Who knew we had a Rhino candidate? I didn't.

Asked the gals there if anyone had tried to vote with a potato sack over their heads yet. They replied in the negative. Asked them what they'd do if someone showed up like that. They said they had a page to refer to in the election manual, in which the voter would be asked to swear that they were who they said they were. ("Trust me, I'm really Mrs. Angela Smith," he said in a baritone voice.) Riiiight. What a crock...

Speaking of crocks, was travelling Lethbridge's eastbound Whoop Up Drive first thing this morning, some morons were standing in the dark waving their Lib signs around. Fitting this was just a couple yards down from a local funeral home...


----------



## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> LAST DAY of Harpo's reign of terror..... :clap: :clap: :clap:



Do you think Herr Harper will be surprised when he loses?


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Do you think *Herr Harper *will be surprised when he loses?


Why are you lowering yourself to that, fjn?


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> Why are you lowering yourself to that, fjn?


Godwin's Law.


----------



## Aurora

fjnmusic said:


> Do you think Herr Harper will be surprised when he loses?
> 
> 
> You are disgusting flat music. Worse than fools that use the term 'Harpo"
> Oh!! Did I get your name wrong?


----------



## fjnmusic

Current seat count 15-1-1 (Lib-Con-ND). Is this an accidental victory in the making as well? 


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## fjnmusic

Aurora said:


> fjnmusic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Herr Harper will be surprised when he loses?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are disgusting flat music. Worse than fools that use the term 'Harpo"
> 
> Oh!! Did I get your name wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herr means Mister. Perhaps you mean discussing, although that's easier to do if both parties can agree to be polite, Aurora.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


----------



## fjnmusic

Update 19L-2N-1C.


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## Aurora

I spent five years in Germany and I am quite aware of what 'herr' means.You are just trying to sluff off your use of the word which was meant to be derogatory. You could have said monsieur or señor but that would not convey your meaning, would it.


----------



## rgray

fjnmusic said:


> Update 19L-2N-1C.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now Libs leading or elected in 27 out of 29 ridings reporting!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## fjnmusic

Currently 29L-2C-1N leading or elected. 170 needed for a majority.

Sorry, make that 30-1-1. 


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## fjnmusic

rgray said:


> Now Libs leading or elected in 27 out of 29 ridings reporting!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:



I wonder if some folks will still look at Stephen Harper as one of Canada's greatest success stories once this night is through? Early vote counts would suggest that accolade is misplaced. 


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## CubaMark

Beyond party politics, I'm quite saddened by what appears is happening to one incumbent MP in Nova Scotia, who doesn't deserve to be swept away by an anti-Harper protest vote. :-(


----------



## Vandave

CubaMark said:


> Beyond party politics, I'm quite saddened by what appears is happening to one incumbent MP in Nova Scotia, who doesn't deserve to be swept away by an anti-Harper protest vote. :-(


You guys made the bed now go lie in it. :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> You guys made the bed now go lie in it. :lmao:


What an odd statement.

Peter Stoffer was a strong advocate for veterans, well respected in Parliament, and a very hard working MP. This guy didn't sit on his ass. Somebody like Peter gets ousted only in a situation like this election: when the voting public has decided it hates the government so intensely, damn the consequences and make sure Harper is ousted.


----------



## Vandave

How is it odd? The NDP and especially their supporters framed this as an anything by Harper election. You got what you asked for and then some.

If you want the best MPs, then make it an elect the best MPs election.


----------



## MacGuiver

fjnmusic said:


> I wonder if some folks will still look at Stephen Harper as one of Canada's greatest success stories once this night is through? Early vote counts would suggest that accolade is misplaced.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Canadian voters haven't been the brightest lately so I wouldn't hold it against him. They elect eco nutter NDP in a province formerly booming from oil production and the Soprano's in Ontario to take us down the toilet even further. When PM Zoolander wins Canadian Idol tonight, I won't be surprised.


----------



## Dr.G.

Jordan wins South Shore-St. Margarets, Brison back in Kings-Hants | The Chronicle Herald

We are the largest riding in NS based on size and population.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Beyond party politics, I'm quite saddened by what appears is happening to one incumbent MP in Nova Scotia, who doesn't deserve to be swept away by an anti-Harper protest vote. :-(


Do you mean Peter Stoffer of the NDP or Megan Leslie of the NDP?


----------



## fjnmusic

15 seats away from a Liberal majority government, and that's not even counting BC ridings yet. 


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## Dr.G.

The last time the Liberals swept every riding in N.S. was 1993, the same year the Jays last won the World Series. 

Coincidence?

Nova Scotia 2015 federal election sees Liberal tide - Nova Scotia - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

I am just so pleased to watch the collapse of the NDP! Early results show Olivia Chow is probably down for the count--another bonus!


----------



## fjnmusic

Currently 177 seats, and that's still not counting BC yet. I think they're gonna break 200. So, to my earlier question: what will Stephen Harper do next? Stay on as the representative of the good people of Etobicoke? Or pull a Jim Prentice and just disappear? 


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----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I am just so pleased to watch the collapse of the NDP! Early results show Olivia Chow is probably down for the count--another bonus!



Always a silver lining, eh? 


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----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Always a silver lining, eh?


Absolutely. I think Stephen Harper was the best choice for PM given the choices available. Justin Trudeau has, as Andrew Coyne so aptly put it "a well-earned reputation for being a ninny" but we can always get over a Liberal government. Mulcair is willful and dangerous, whereas Justin is merely a simpleton.


----------



## fjnmusic

Fortunately for the rest of us, you are part of a minority that hold the opinion that Stephen Harper was the best choice for Prime Minister. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting how the pollsters were so WAY off in their predictions/speculations/guesses. Reminds me of the time I was a month old. Also, it reminds me of 1980 when PET welcomed us to the 1980s.

Paix, mes amis.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> PET welcomed us to the 1980s.


I did no see it as a welcome, but a threat.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What an ass kicking!


----------



## Macfury

I think Elizabeth May is still a lonely unicorn.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like the BQ is showing Mulcair how to do separatism right.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Beyond party politics, I'm quite saddened by what appears is happening to one incumbent MP in Nova Scotia, who doesn't deserve to be swept away by an anti-Harper protest vote. :-(


Peter Stoffer defeated by Liberal in Sackville-Preston-Chezzetcook - Nova Scotia - CBC News
Megan Leslie loses to Liberal Andy Fillmore in Halifax - Nova Scotia - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Linda McQuaig--gone!


----------



## fjnmusic

Too soon?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Stephen Harper to step down as leader after Conservative defeat*

_Stephen Harper will step down as Conservative leader following Monday's federal election defeat, according to The Canadian Press.

Harper, who was seeking a fourth consecutive term as prime minister since 2006, is expected to speak shortly from downtown Calgary.

The Conservative leader had told Peter Mansbridge of CBC's The National earlier in the campaign that he had no intention of trying to form a coalition if his party didn't finish first in seats.

"My position has always been if we win the most seats, I will expect to form the government and if we don't, I won't," he said.

Harper comfortably won his Calgary Heritage riding on Monday night and will continue to serve as MP in the immediate future, CP reported._​


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What an ass kicking!


7% is an ass kicking?

What about all the talk that only 20% of Canadians voted for this guy. 80% of Canadians didn't vote for Trudeau and 60% of voters didn't either. Oh ya, that doesn't count when our guy wins.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Vandave said:


> 7% is an ass kicking?
> 
> 
> 
> What about all the talk that only 20% of Canadians voted for this guy. 80% of Canadians didn't vote for Trudeau and 60% of voters didn't either. Oh ya, that doesn't count when our guy wins.



I have an answer for you - proportional representation. I'm fully in favour. I like govt by consensus. 

I'm extremely happy that Harper had his ass kicked by a Trudeau.


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I have an answer for you - proportional representation. I'm fully in favour. I like govt by consensus.
> 
> I'm extremely happy that Harper had his ass kicked by a Trudeau.


For a government in power 10 years and Harper's fifth election, that's a pretty good showing. He leaves the Party in a better place than what Trudeau, Mulroney and Chrétien left behind.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Vandave said:


> For a government in power 10 years and Harper's fifth election, that's a pretty good showing. He leaves the Party in a better place than what Trudeau, Mulroney and Chrétien left behind.



Good for the Cons. They have a chance to become respectable again. But what happened to the Harper wet dream of decades of power. It died because Harper is a thug. A thug now banished to the sidelines. 

I love it.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> For a government in power 10 years and Harper's fifth election, that's a pretty good showing. He leaves the Party in a better place than what Trudeau, Mulroney and Chrétien left behind.



Opposition in 2004, minority in 2006, minority in 2008, majority in 2011, opposition in 2015. Not exactly a stellar track record. It suggests to me the man did not know how to hold on to a majority gov't once he got one. Too much fear, not enough faith. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

Vandave said:


> For a government in power 10 years and Harper's fifth election, that's a pretty good showing. He leaves the Party in a better place than what Trudeau, Mulroney and Chrétien left behind.


Totally agree. Over 100 seats, more than 5.5 million votes (more than he got in two of his minority wins), relegating the NDP back to irrelevant third place… Harper's defeat is a stronger showing than most of his contemporaries' best showings.


----------



## fjnmusic

Congratulations to the accidental government of Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party in gaining damn near 150 seats since the last election! 


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## skippythebushkangaroo

Less than 100 seats. A thumpin'. 

I don't think I'll waste my time going back to the bold posts that said Harper will eat Trudeau alive and the just wait comments that followed exposure of Harper's odious ways. 

Justin has been served. And he was ready.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Congratulations to the accidental government of Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party in gaining damn near 150 seats since the last election!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think it was "accidental", but I shall extend my kudos to the new PM of Canada. Voted for him since our local liberal candidate was stronger and more qualified than our local NDP candidate, and I wanted to have Trudeau rather than Mulcair as PM.

Just imagine the margin of victory had Trudeau been ready???? (I never did like that Conservative commercial about JT "just not ready").

Still, he is going to be our PM with a majority government, so let us hope he is able to keep his campaign promises. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

In our riding here in NS, the Liberal, Bernadette Jordan was elected and she won by 18,033 votes by a 56.9% margin. In the past five elections, the Liberals have never done better than finishing third.

In my old riding in St. John's, NL, Jack Harris of the NDP, the incumbent, for whom I have voted in all but one election since becoming a Canadian citizen, lost by 658 votes to the Liberal candidate.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Dr.G. said:


> In our riding here in NS, the Liberal, Bernadette Jordan was elected and she won by 18,033 votes by a 56.9% margin. In the past five elections, the Liberals have never done better than finishing third.
> 
> In my old riding in St. John's, NL, Jack Harris of the NDP, the incumbent, for whom I have voted in all but one election since becoming a Canadian citizen, lost by 658 votes to the Liberal candidate.


I feel for a good number of the NDP who went down last night. Harris was one of them. Politics is brutal sometimes.


----------



## Macfury

I feel good for a number of NDP who went down last night! Trudeau's win was the result of their utter collapse, but that utter collapse was a joy to witness! Chow and McQuaig were highlights!

To hear Mulcair tell it, their self-immolation was part of a heroic election effort.

While a minority government would have been a better outcome, it doesn't much matter. Mulcair has effectively been reduced to a rump of himself, and is clearly set to vote with Justin on almost anything.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I feel for a good number of the NDP who went down last night. Harris was one of them. Politics is brutal sometimes.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> I don't think it was "accidental", but I shall extend my kudos to the new PM of Canada. Voted for him since our local liberal candidate was stronger and more qualified than our local NDP candidate, and I wanted to have Trudeau rather than Mulcair as PM.
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine the margin of victory had Trudeau been ready???? (I never did like that Conservative commercial about JT "just not ready").
> 
> 
> 
> Still, he is going to be our PM with a majority government, so let us hope he is able to keep his campaign promises. We shall see.
> 
> 
> 
> Paix, mon ami.



Yeah, I was being sarcastic, Dr. G. It was as "accidental" as Notley's win last May. They both deserve their success and both ran positive campaigns. 

The "just not ready" was a play on words, emphasizing his name: Just-in. They really wanted call attention away from the Trudeau brand name, which is still beloved in many parts of the country (save for Alberta). I voted Lib too because I believe among the three, he clearly has the best leadership abilities. Everybody likes a come from behind success story. 


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----------



## BigDL

Stephen Harper with his politics of division, he has breathed life back into the dying Bloc, <sarcasm> OGL, way to go.</sarcasm> 

Who's happy with that?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I feel good for a number of NDP who went down last night! Trudeau's win was the result of their utter collapse, but that utter collapse was a joy to witness! Chow and McQuaig were highlights!
> 
> 
> 
> To hear Mulcair tell it, their self-immolation was part of a heroic election effort.
> 
> 
> 
> While a minority government would have been a better outcome, it doesn't much matter. Mulcair has effectively been reduced to a rump of himself, and is clearly set to vote with Justin on almost anything.



The NDP were not humiliated anywhere near the way the Conservatives were. This was Harper's election to lose, and lost he did. Big time. And aspire all of your assertions to the contrary, the Cons were not gaining the confidence of Canadian voters. But you got one thing right: ThreeHundredEight.com is a good source of polling information, even though they turned out to be a tad, ah...."conservative" in their final estimates. 


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----------



## Macfury

It was too much responsibility for the NDP to hold onto the separatist vote gained by Layton's politics of division all by itself--they needed help.



BigDL said:


> Stephen Harper with his politics of division, he has breathed life back into the dying Bloc, <sarcasm> OGL, way to go.</sarcasm>
> 
> Who's happy with that?


----------



## Vandave

Muclair and the NDP are by far the biggest losers this election. The NDP were the government in waiting and now they barely made official party status. A lot of their 'star' MPs got crushed. 

The Conservatives still had a strong showing pulling almost as many aggregate votes as they did last time. If you were to believe your own rhetoric, you should be scared because the most hated, evil, cold and authoritarian villain of a PM still pulled 32%. What happens when that villain is gone? If you were consistent, you would say Conservative majority.


----------



## Macfury

I beg to differ. I doubt Harper expected to win a fifth mandate, but he was still the best person to give it a shot. 

It was Mulcair who took the party down from a hugely promising start--its best ever--to a rump party.

308 is an interesting site to keep the juices flowing up to election day.



fjnmusic said:


> The NDP were not humiliated anywhere near the way the Conservatives were. This was Harper's election to lose, and lost he did. Big time. And aspire all of your assertions to the contrary, the Cons were not gaining the confidence of Canadian voters. But you got one thing right: ThreeHundredEight.com is a good source of polling information, even though they turned out to be a tad, ah...."conservative" in their final estimates.


----------



## Vandave

I for one am looking forward to the Still Not Ready ads four years from now.


----------



## CubaMark

*From Facebook:*

*Tricia Brubacher*
9 hrs · Guelph, Canada · 

Passing this comment along:_ "Tomorrow Stephen Harper is going to wake up with Naheed Nenshi as his mayor, Rachel Notley as his premier, and Justin Trudeau as his Prime Minister."_ I can live with that.​


----------



## Macfury

Having personally witnessed Justin speaking extemporaneously, I can see that.

His victory speech was a shockingly vapid collection of cliches.



Vandave said:


> I for one am looking forward to the Still Not Ready ads four years from now.


----------



## Macfury

These Internet memes are so weak. Why would Harper care about any of that? He's hamstrung Trudeau already by near-permanent alterations to the Federal government. The mayor--seriously? And Notley will soon pass like a bad meal. 




CubaMark said:


> *From Facebook:*
> 
> *Tricia Brubacher*
> 9 hrs · Guelph, Canada ·
> 
> Passing this comment along:_ "Tomorrow Stephen Harper is going to wake up with Naheed Nenshi as his mayor, Rachel Notley as his premier, and Justin Trudeau as his Prime Minister."_ I can live with that.​


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Muclair and the NDP are by far the biggest losers this election. The NDP were the government in waiting and now they barely made official party status. A lot of their 'star' MPs got crushed.
> 
> The Conservatives still had a strong showing pulling almost as many aggregate votes as they did last time. If you were to believe your own rhetoric, you should be scared because the most hated, evil, cold and authoritarian villain of a PM still pulled 32%. What happens when that villain is gone? If you were consistent, you would say Conservative majority.


Hey MF and you were not happy about a little Corporate Welfare on a section of Railway,bud you ain't seen nothing yet.

Vd With large deficits on the horizon, Liberal Governments in the three MerryTimes Provinces and his Baby Sitter elected in South Eastern New Brunswick...let them Pork Barrels roll...happy days are here again. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Goes without saying that it would have been better had the PCs remained in power.



BigDL said:


> Hey MF and you were not happy about a little Corporate Welfare on a section of Railway,bud you ain't seen nothing yet.
> 
> Vd With large deficits on the horizon, Liberal Governments in the three MerryTimes Provinces and his Baby Sitter elected in South Eastern New Brunswick...let them Pork Barrels roll...happy days are here again. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

With the NDP all but gone, we now embark upon a familiar journey.


----------



## eMacMan

^yup^



> "Tonight Canada is becoming the country it was before," Trudeau told a victory rally in Montreal.


To do this Trudeau will have to repeal Bill-51 and the anti internet privacy bill. Strike the second class citizenship portion of Bill C-24 and of course repeal the FATCA-IGA. The latter should be a no brainer given that the IRS has no intention of living up to the reciprocity portion of the IGA, but is the new PM that intelligent?

Personally I think Canadians and Canada would have been better served by a Liberal-NDP coalition, but obviously ridding the nation of the Harper was the main concern of most Canadians.

Over in BC I was glad to see that Cullin and Rankin survived the NDP purge. Also glad to see Oliver and Findley in the Gonzo category, they certainly deserved the boot! Too bad Jason Kenney survived.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> ...but is the new PM that intelligent?


That would be a surprise!


----------



## eMacMan

Quote: 
Originally Posted by *eMacMan* 
_...but is the new PM that intelligent?_


Macfury said:


> That would be a surprise!


Not holding my breath, partly because I distrust all politicians and partly because die nasties seldom benefit the general population. God help us if Ben Mulrony gets the political bug.


----------



## Vandave

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I have an answer for you - proportional representation. I'm fully in favour. I like govt by consensus.


Let's see if you feel that way when the Christian Heritage Party holds the balance of power.


----------



## FeXL

Vandave said:


> Let's see if you feel that way when the Christian Heritage Party holds the balance of power.


Bingo!!!


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> Let's see if you feel that way when the Christian Heritage Party holds the balance of power.


Hell, I'd feel bad if the NDP held the balance of power!


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I feel for a good number of the NDP who went down last night. Harris was one of them. Politics is brutal sometimes.


Yes, he was a strong voice in the House of Commons.


----------



## FeXL

Curious how that massive uprising of alleged leftists in Alberta who "willingly" voted NDP provincially completely abandoned their progressive roots & voted Conservative federally...


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Yeah, I was being sarcastic, Dr. G. It was as "accidental" as Notley's win last May. They both deserve their success and both ran positive campaigns.
> 
> The "just not ready" was a play on words, emphasizing his name: Just-in. They really wanted call attention away from the Trudeau brand name, which is still beloved in many parts of the country (save for Alberta). I voted Lib too because I believe among the three, he clearly has the best leadership abilities. Everybody likes a come from behind success story.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, Frank, I did not catch the sarcasm. Mea culpa. Sleep deprived from 8 puppies being born on Saturday and last night's election coverage. Cone on over to The Shangri-La thread for some free coffee and non-political chatter. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I feel good for a number of NDP who went down last night! Trudeau's win was the result of their utter collapse, but that utter collapse was a joy to witness! Chow and McQuaig were highlights!


Bingo!!!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> His victory speech was a shockingly vapid collection of cliches.


I'm sorry, were we talking about his platform or his victory speech?

I mean, c'mon. An economic policy that "comes from the heart"? Why wouldn't that coerce you into voting for him?


----------



## eMacMan

Still waiting to see our resident con apologist try to spin this into a glorious victory.


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> Curious how that massive uprising of alleged leftists in Alberta who "willingly" voted NDP provincially completely abandoned their progressive roots & voted Conservative federally...


It blows me away the level of wishful thinking that some people have.

So many people thought Alberta was a sign and a statement that the whole country was going to turn Orange.

When the NDP won Alberta I told everybody they were going to lose seats Federally in the next election. My opinion was way out there at the time. But in hindsight, it's pretty obvious if you look at the situation without bias.


----------



## Vandave

eMacMan said:


> Still waiting to see our resident con apologist try to spin this into a glorious victory.


Harper got 5.8 million votes in his majority and got 5.6 million votes this time around.

That's not a defeat of the Conservatives so much as it is a victory for the Liberals. 

My prediction, going off history, is that Trudeau gets a second majority. But, it's by no means a given. The Conservatives can win next time. The party is still strong. They just need the right candidate and the right circumstances (Justin has to fail in some ways) and it goes back to them.


----------



## eMacMan

Vandave said:


> Harper got 5.8 million votes in his majority and got 5.6 million votes this time around.
> 
> That's not a defeat of the Conservatives so much as it is a victory for the Liberals.
> 
> My prediction, going off history, is that Trudeau gets a second majority. But, it's by no means a given. The Conservatives can win next time. The party is still strong. They just need the right candidate and the right circumstances (Justin has to fail in some ways) and it goes back to them.


True, but there was a much higher turn out with almost everyone of the additional votes going anti-Harper.

Will be interesting to see if Trudeau decides his job is to work for Canadians or if he prefers to continue the corporate shill strategy of the Harper.


----------



## Macfury

Even with Mulcair ordering Notley to keep a budget on the back burner until after the federal election! 



Vandave said:


> It blows me away the level of wishful thinking that some people have.
> 
> So many people thought Alberta was a sign and a statement that the whole country was going to turn Orange.
> 
> When the NDP won Alberta I told everybody they were going to lose seats Federally in the next election. My opinion was way out there at the time. But in hindsight, it's pretty obvious if you look at the situation without bias.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> With the NDP all but gone, we now embark upon a familiar journey.


But isn't this exactly what many of you on the Right wanted? A decimated NDP?


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## FeXL

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Independently wealthy millionaire pups whose estates were set up for them by their wealthy pater do not work for other people. They work for one person & one person only...

That's one more thing I don't get. How much does this guy have in common with the average Canadian? Don't bother, it's a rhetorical question.



eMacMan said:


> Will be interesting to see if Trudeau decides his job is to work for Canadians...


----------



## CubaMark

For the record, voter turnout (not including those who registered on election day) for the 2015 Federal Election was *68.49 %*


----------



## Macfury

It was my greatest concern for this election.



CubaMark said:


> But isn't this exactly what many of you on the Right wanted? A decimated NDP?


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Harper got 5.8 million votes in his majority and got 5.6 million votes this time around.
> 
> That's not a defeat of the Conservatives so much as it is a victory for the Liberals.
> 
> My prediction, going off history, is that Trudeau gets a second majority. But, it's by no means a given. The Conservatives can win next time. The party is still strong. They just need the right candidate and the right circumstances (Justin has to fail in some ways) and it goes back to them.


Yeah "Harper got..."but now he's "gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, so long..."

So who's the next saviour of the Conservative Movement?

Peter MacKay?
Stockwell Day?
Doug Ford?
Jason Kenny?
Preston Manning?

You fellows may want to let us know.


----------



## Dr.G.

Good for a chuckle if you like Robin Williams in his role in Jumanji.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Good for a chuckle if you like Robin Williams in his role in Jumanji.


 The year of Back To The Future II?


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> The year of Back To The Future II?


:clap::lmao::clap:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The year of Back To The Future II?


That would be 1989.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> That would be 1989.





Wikipedia said:


> Plot
> On October 26, 1985, Dr. Emmett "Doc" Brown arrives in his flying DeLorean time machine and persuades Marty McFly and his girlfriend, Jennifer Parker, to come back to the future with him to help their future children. Biff Tannen witnesses their departure. They arrive on *October 21, 2015*,* where Doc electronically knocks out Jennifer and leaves her asleep in an alley, explaining that she should not have too much knowledge of future events. He has Marty pose as his own son to refuse an offer to participate in a robbery with Biff's grandson, Griff.


Wiki on BACK TO THE FUTURE 2

** The bold is mine.*


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Wiki on BACK TO THE FUTURE 2


It was made in 1989. Just throwing a spanner into the gag.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good article by sink's fav Terry Milewski -

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-harper-political-obit-1.3273677


----------



## FeXL

Any of them have more political savvy than fil Trudeau...



BigDL said:


> So who's the next saviour of the Conservative Movement?
> 
> Peter MacKay?
> Stockwell Day?
> Doug Ford?
> Jason Kenny?
> Preston Manning?


----------



## SINC

Yep, four years of the boy wonder otta be fun.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It will better than the last four years of the asshole you upheld and then even you admitted was past his best due date. Never again to republican rule.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> It was Mulcair who took the party down from a hugely promising start--its best ever--to a rump party.


It's interesting how much context frames things. Reviled Harper's crushing defeat was still over a million votes more than beloved Layton's Orange wave.


----------



## Vandave

heavyall said:


> It's interesting how much context frames things. Reviled Harper's crushing defeat was still over a million votes more than beloved Layton's Orange wave.


I think it's a fundamental problem with media. Everything needs to be sensationalized.


----------



## Dr.G.

Vandave said:


> I think it's a fundamental problem with media. Everything needs to be sensationalized.


Sadly, even CNN is starting to do this .......... with hour after hour after hour coverage of an event that CBC would spend 15 minutes of coverage. Still, our election even made headlines on CNN.com in context of their primary season.

Justin Trudeau win is bad news for U.S. conservatives - CNN.com


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Still, our election even made headlines on CNN.com in context of their primary season.
> 
> Justin Trudeau win is bad news for U.S. conservatives - CNN.com


Yes it has:



> Canada under Harper's leadership was a conservative wonderland with balanced budgets, increasingly low taxes and a robust foreign policy aimed at taking on terrorists and bullies the world over. But that is poised to change under the Liberal Party's Trudeau, who promises to run deficits, pull out of the anti-ISIS operation in Iraq and Syria, and re-establish ties with Iran. He also wants to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees to Canada.
> 
> Without Harper at the helm, the lessons of Canada's miracle -- surviving the financial crisis, balancing budgets, slashing red tape and taxes while maintaining a healthy welfare state -- will be lost to history as Trudeau's Liberals in a fit of pique roll back the gains the Great White North has made.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Yes it has:


Very telling, coming from CNN...


----------



## FeXL

Harper past due is head & shoulders above Trudeau's best. Not limited to but including an economic policy "coming from the heart". Surely even you must admit that is weak sauce...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> ...even you admitted was past his best due date.


----------



## Vandave

I'm not going to lie... I feel a bit depressed today and I worry for our country. I can already feel the pigs at the public trough stampeding their way to Ottawa. I seriously considered voting Trudeau and didn't. I feel good about my choice today based on feeling bad to see Harper go. I'm actually a little mad at myself for not taking more of a stand against the vocal left. So many idiots on Facebook. For now on, I clown those people. I'll measure my success by how many of them unfriend me. People say Harper was divisive. Ya right. The left are divisive, mean and ugly.

I think our country is in a lot of trouble. Consumer debt is dangerously high. We have housing bubbles in our major cities. We've sold ourselves out to dirty money from China. We hate commodities even though it pays our bills (well not any more). If Ontario and Quebec were separate nations, they'd be near Greece levels of debt. If not for Canada, Quebec would have been another Greece. I hate to say it, but I honestly think we need an economic crash to set things straight. This isn't really a rant against Trudeau. As a person I don't mind him. But I think the path of more government is the wrong one.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Very telling, coming from CNN...



CNN? You mean the other Republican news network along with Fox News? Yes, that's very surprising. I discovered the slant on CNN from watching all the biased reporting after 9/11 favouring the government of George W Bush. That's when I realized that CNN is not really an objective source for news.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I'm not going to lie... I feel a bit depressed today and I worry for our country. I can already feel the pigs at the public trough stampeding their way to Ottawa. I seriously considered voting Trudeau and didn't. I feel good about my choice today based on feeling bad to see Harper go. I'm actually a little mad at myself for not taking more of a stand against the vocal left. So many idiots on Facebook. For now on, I clown those people. I'll measure my success by how many of them unfriend me. People say Harper was divisive. Ya right. The left are divisive, mean and ugly.
> 
> 
> 
> I think our country is in a lot of trouble. Consumer debt is dangerously high. We have housing bubbles in our major cities. We've sold ourselves out to dirty money from China. We hate commodities even though it pays our bills (well not any more). If Ontario and Quebec were separate nations, they'd be near Greece levels of debt. If not for Canada, Quebec would have been another Greece. I hate to say it, but I honestly think we need an economic crash to set things straight. This isn't really a rant against Trudeau. As a person I don't mind him. But I think the path of more government is the wrong one.



Interesting points considering that most of your concerns presented themselves on Harper's watch. I definitely agree on levels of consumer debt, starting with way too many big mortgages for people who can't afford it. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Vandave

Fjn, read em and weep:

Media Sources: Distinct Favorites Emerge on the Left and Right | Pew Research Center


----------



## Vandave

Speaking of media bias, I bet the CBC had a grand old party last night. I heard Suzuki has picked out another mansion and Beemer.


----------



## Vandave

Here is how the first year of the CBC will go with Justin:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> CNN? You mean the other Republican news network along with Fox News? Yes, that's very surprising. I discovered the slant on CNN from watching all the biased reporting after 9/11 favouring the government of George W Bush. That's when I realized that CNN is not really an objective source for news.


That's hilarious! You once claimed CBC was objective!


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> Speaking of media bias, I bet the CBC had a grand old party last night. I heard Suzuki has picked out another mansion and Beemer.



It'll be good to see the CBC brought back from the precipice of annihilation. Yer damn right they'll be celebrating. This Hour Has 22 Minutes was brilliant tonight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That's hilarious! You once claimed CBC was objective!



Compared with CNN, it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> It'll be good to see the CBC brought back from the precipice of annihilation.


This is why I thought Stephen Harper was such a softie--he should have wiped CBC-TV off the map.



fjnmusic said:


> This Hour Has 22 Minutes was brilliant tonight.


I guess there's a first time for everything.


----------



## MacGuiver

You got to admit though the CBC ran a flawless campaign this year. Justin owes them big time.


----------



## eMacMan

MacGuiver said:


> You got to admit though the CBC ran a flawless campaign this year. Justin owes them big time.


Without the CBC skewering previous liberal governments, it is unlikely the Harper would ever have achieved a majority governments. 

I am certain they will hold Justins feet to the blaze just as they did with the Harper.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> This is why I thought Stephen Harper was such a softie--he should have wiped CBC-TV off the map.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there's a first time for everything.



Stephen Harper wasn't a softie; he was an asshole. Thank God he isn't as powerful as he thought he was and you didn't get your wish. They should also bring back Little Mosque on the Prairie just to **** you off. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vandave

I truly don't understand why we have a public broadcaster in this day and age. The only people who support the CBC are left leaning people.

It's a shame that we literally hold a gun to people's head so that some dummy can make TV shows that nobody watches.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> It'll be good to see the CBC brought back from the precipice of annihilation. Yer damn right they'll be celebrating. This Hour Has 22 Minutes was brilliant tonight.


Have you ever even bothered to look up the ratings for Edmonton CBC-TV? They are pitiful and such a small audience it should be wiped off the map as a completely unnecessary expense to the public. That is why the TV arm should be shut down altogether. CBC radio however, is quite another thing and is worth saving and runs with about 1/8 the staff.


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> I truly don't understand why we have a public broadcaster in this day and age. The only people who support the CBC are left leaning people.



*Mandate*

The 1991 Broadcasting Act states that...

"...the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, as the national public broadcaster, should provide radio and television services incorporating a wide range of programming that informs, enlightens and entertains;

...the programming provided by the Corporation should:


be predominantly and distinctively Canadian, reflect Canada and its regions to national and regional audiences, while serving the special needs of those regions,
actively contribute to the flow and exchange of cultural expression,
be in English and in French, reflecting the different needs and circumstances of each official language community, including the particular needs and circumstances of English and French linguistic minorities,
strive to be of equivalent quality in English and French,
contribute to shared national consciousness and identity,
be made available throughout Canada by the most appropriate and efficient means and as resources become available for the purpose, and
reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canada."


----------



## SINC

Listing the goals of the CBC via the act does not in any way answer the question, 'why do we need a public broadcaster in this day and age?' We simply don't. It was reasonable when there was no other means of receiving Canadian content across this vast country in the days before cable and satellite and the internet. There is zero need now.


----------



## Vandave

You can't legislate culture or unity, the same way you can't outlaw being poor.

What is this, communist China? Soviet Russia? North Korea?


----------



## CubaMark

I'm not a fan of the Liberal Party, and certainly not swooning over Justin Trudeau's charms. All I can hope is that this encounter left some roots for his worldview.... 










*CORRECTION:*_ I've just discovered that this is Michel, Justin's younger brother, being held by Fidel Castro. So - rest easy, right-wingers afraid of communist influence!_


----------



## Macfury

Bringing in more armed government thugs to subjugate the population? I guess you can dream.



CubaMark said:


> I'm not a fan of the Liberal Party, and certainly not swooning over Justin Trudeau's charms. All I can hope is that this encounter left some roots for his worldview....


----------



## Macfury

He could have done it, but he was too much of a centrist. 



fjnmusic said:


> Stephen Harper wasn't a softie; he was an asshole. Thank God he isn't as powerful as he thought he was and you didn't get your wish. They should also bring back Little Mosque on the Prairie just to **** you off.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

You really need to step back from your myopic worldview.

Yes, CNN may have the occasional centrist or even right leaning commentator but overall, they are left leaning. Haven't watched them since 9-11? I'd suggest your opinion is only _slightly_ out of date...



fjnmusic said:


> CNN? You mean the other Republican news network along with Fox News?


Missed your comment on why all those Alberta provincial election NDP voters shed their progressive skins & voted Conservative federally. Or are you ignoring the question?


----------



## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> CNN? You mean the other Republican news network along with Fox News? Yes, that's very surprising. I discovered the slant on CNN from watching all the biased reporting after 9/11 favouring the government of George W Bush. That's when I realized that CNN is not really an objective source for news.


CNN is not objective, but it's because they are one of the more left-wing news sources in the US. They are stridently anti-Republican.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> CNN is not objective, but it's because they are one of the more left-wing news sources in the US. They are stridently anti-Republican.


Anti-Republican is centrist if you're that far to the left.


----------



## Vandave

I posted a link that says self identified Liberals pick CNN as top choice for news. People of 'mixed views' also picked CNN first.

Fox News obviously wins out for self identified Conservatives.

This isn't really a point of debate but rather of fact. CNN is middle-left. But who cares, it's just one commentators opinion. It's not the position of CNN.


----------



## Vandave

FJN, I would suggest this bothers you because the Liberal Left like to believe the lie that the rest of the World actually cares about our politics. You guys like to believe that we're admired for being 'progressive'. So it hurts when a 'progressive' news organization doesn't get all excited over a Trudeau victory.


----------



## Macfury

It's interesting that people want to be admired for being "progressives" yet it's dirt-cheap coin used by people to self-identify with the masses. It requires no thought--just emotions--and membership dues are paid using other people's hard-earned money.


----------



## rgray

Study: Are Liberals Smarter Than Conservatives? - TIME

Are Conservatives Dumber Than Liberals?

Conservatism Thrives on Low Intelligence and Poor Information | Alternet


----------



## Macfury

Why are you posting these links rgray? And what does liberalism have to do with "progressivisim"?

The studies largely point out that liberals are incapable of producing accurate studies on these matters, because of problems such as failing to actually understand conservative viewpoints, or extreme confirmation bias.

The most telling of the studies notes:



> Carl begins by pointing out that there is data suggesting that a segment of the American population holding classical liberal beliefs tends to vote Republican. *Classical liberals, Carl notes, believe that an individual should be free to make his own lifestyle choices and to enjoy the profits derived from voluntary transactions with others. He proposes that intelligence actually correlates with classically liberal beliefs.*





rgray said:


> Study: Are Liberals Smarter Than Conservatives? - TIME
> 
> Are Conservatives Dumber Than Liberals?
> 
> Conservatism Thrives on Low Intelligence and Poor Information | Alternet


----------



## FeXL

Because, in the complete absence of having anything of his own to contribute to the discussion (serial cartoon poster/non-commenter), it's the only way he can feel superior.

Indigent Academic? More like indolent...



Macfury said:


> Why are you posting these links rgray?


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Listing the goals of the CBC via the act does not in any way answer the question, 'why do we need a public broadcaster in this day and age?' We simply don't. It was reasonable when there was no other means of receiving Canadian content across this vast country in the days before cable and satellite and the internet. There is zero need now.


This is a debate that ain't gonna change either sides' mind... but here's one fellow's response to that question (from the comments on a 2011 Winnipeg Sun blog asking why we need the CBC):

*Preston*

The CBC provides an alternative perspective to the commercially driven crap we’re force-fed on all other channels. Do I necessarily care for all of their programming? No, but they are the only ones who will provide something for people not represented in main-stream media. Without it Aboriginals, minorities, intellectuals, etc. will never have a voice or a program aimed at them, and our kids will grow up not ever being exposed to anything other than the Simpsons, CSI, and Shock-Jocks. Clearly that’s fine for some, but I believe diversity of voice and opinion actually makes us better citizens.

As Chris says, the mainstream media is interested in ratings/viewers and will appeal to the lowest common denominator. No offense, but look at your newspaper. Short uncritical stories, majority wire content, sunshine girls, etc. And I’m no elitist. I immigrated to Canada as a child, my parents are still poor blue collar workers and I was never given a thing. But the CBC helped our family better understand the diversity of Canada, to feel part of something bigger, and to nurture our curiosity. Is this worth $36 per Canadian per year? I vote yes.​


----------



## Macfury

By consistently programming shows aimed at a marginalized audience they are spending more and more on smaller audiences--who aren't watching in great numbers anyway. 

With massive choice outside of TV available to them, few kids will be exposed to random acts of CBC anyway. What year do they think this is--1977?

It made me laugh that the guy sees "intellectuals" as being served by CBC TV. That's what passes for deep thought now?





CubaMark said:


> This is a debate that ain't gonna change either sides' mind... but here's one fellow's response to that question (from the comments on a 2011 Winnipeg Sun blog asking why we need the CBC):
> 
> *Preston*
> 
> The CBC provides an alternative perspective to the commercially driven crap we’re force-fed on all other channels. Do I necessarily care for all of their programming? No, but they are the only ones who will provide something for people not represented in main-stream media. Without it Aboriginals, minorities, intellectuals, etc. will never have a voice or a program aimed at them, and our kids will grow up not ever being exposed to anything other than the Simpsons, CSI, and Shock-Jocks. Clearly that’s fine for some, but I believe diversity of voice and opinion actually makes us better citizens.
> 
> As Chris says, the mainstream media is interested in ratings/viewers and will appeal to the lowest common denominator. No offense, but look at your newspaper. Short uncritical stories, majority wire content, sunshine girls, etc. And I’m no elitist. I immigrated to Canada as a child, my parents are still poor blue collar workers and I was never given a thing. But the CBC helped our family better understand the diversity of Canada, to feel part of something bigger, and to nurture our curiosity. Is this worth $36 per Canadian per year? I vote yes.​


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What a load of crap. The CBC is staying. Election night viewing set a new record. And it was a high quality broadcast. 

The CBC fills a void that private broadcasters can't. It will not happen but I'd like to see their budget increased and advertising banned as on radio.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What a load of crap. The CBC is staying. Election night viewing set a new record. .


What was the record they broke, Jimbo and how many people watched?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So the word is the Cons blew their wad on the election and there's no money left. I love it. 

They are in bad shape and their reform bent isn't going to help them in 4 years. 

I'm amazed that they had no ground game in my riding. The Liberals did. They had a lot of people driving the vote and they won. 

Voter turnout in my riding was over 75%. Voter turnout in Ottawa centre was over 80%. 

It's hard to predict but I see the red Tories splitting from the Cons if Kenney gets in.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> What was the record they broke, Jimbo and how many people watched?



http://www.cbc.ca/mediacentre/mobil...dians-than-anyone-else-on-election-night.html


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

And in case you have 9 hours or so here's the replay:


http://youtu.be/lWFNl0K18A4


----------



## Macfury

First, except for the winner:

Majority Rules: CTV ELECTION 2015 on CTV Wins Election Night as Canada's Most-Watched Federal Election Coverage - Bell Media



> CTV ELECTION 2015 takes top spot as the night’s #1 non-sports program of the day in Canada, reaching more than 10 million viewers on CTV...





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CBC Media Centre - Press Releases - PETER MANSBRIDGE REACHED MORE CANADIANS THAN ANYONE ELSE ON ELECTION NIGHT


----------



## Macfury

Yep, your predictions have been 100% so far, Jimbo.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> So the word is the Cons blew their wad on the election and there's no money left. I love it.
> 
> They are in bad shape and their reform bent isn't going to help them in 4 years.
> 
> I'm amazed that they had no ground game in my riding. The Liberals did. They had a lot of people driving the vote and they won.
> 
> Voter turnout in my riding was over 75%. Voter turnout in Ottawa centre was over 80%.
> 
> It's hard to predict but I see the red Tories splitting from the Cons if Kenney gets in.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> First, except for the winner:
> 
> 
> 
> Majority Rules: CTV ELECTION 2015 on CTV Wins Election Night as Canada's Most-Watched Federal Election Coverage - Bell Media



Nice try by Bell. But with the same broadcast on CBCNN as on CBC the combined numbers were far higher than Bell.


----------



## SINC

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice try by Bell. But with the same broadcast on CBCNN as on CBC the combined numbers were far higher than Bell.


Yep for a single night in fours years. For the rest of that time, dead last.


----------



## Macfury

Maybe CBC could stake a claim if they added the viewers from the last election.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Nice try by Bell. But with the same broadcast on CBCNN as on CBC the combined numbers were far higher than Bell.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

More BS. CBC TV news is typically the number 1 station in most Canadian urban markets. 

Personally I get my news from the radio but many a Canuck relies on the TV.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oh well. Here's a picture of PM Trudeau II headed for his office to meet his predecessor. His shoes aren't pointy enough.


----------



## Macfury

They lost in the ratings. Get over it.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> More BS. CBC TV news is typically the number 1 station in most Canadian urban markets.
> 
> Personally I get my news from the radio but many a Canuck relies on the TV.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I truly don't understand why we have a public broadcaster in this day and age. The only people who support the CBC are left leaning people.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a shame that we literally hold a gun to people's head so that some dummy can make TV shows that nobody watches.



I watch it. If you don't like it, just switch channels. You've been paying for public broadcasting your whole life through taxes. What difference does it make? 


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## rgray

fjnmusic said:


> I watch it. If you don't like it, just switch channels. You've been paying for public broadcasting your whole life through taxes. What difference does it make?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I listen all the time. Don't have a TV.


----------



## Macfury

If you don't like subsidies to GM, don't buy their products--is that your attitude? 

CBC is wasted money and an anachronism in 2015. Make it a subscription service and your need for their "progressive" programming will be met.



fjnmusic said:


> I watch it. If you don't like it, just switch channels. You've been paying for public broadcasting your whole life through taxes. What difference does it make?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> Why are you posting these links rgray?


I watched the ebb and flow of posts in this thread and got curious...... Turns out there is a fair body of research (not entirely unequivocal as one might expect).


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> I watched the ebb and flow of posts in this thread and got curious...... Turns out there is a fair body of research (not entirely unequivocal as one might expect).


You'll find dozens more. Usually some left-wing think tank attempting to prove that it's own worldview is a proxy for intelligence.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> You really need to step back from your myopic worldview.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, CNN may have the occasional centrist or even right leaning commentator but overall, they are left leaning. Haven't watched them since 9-11? I'd suggest your opinion is only _slightly_ out of date./QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I didn't say I hadn't WATCHED CNN since 9-11; I said the post 9-11 coverage was where I really noticed the slanted coverage, particularly all the coverage leading up to the "pre-emptive strike" against Iraq in the form of the "shock and awe" campaign against Baghdad, based on the "best intelligence" suggesting Iraq had purchased quantities of "enriched plutonium" from a country in North Africa and could launch a strike against the USA with only 45 minutes warning. It was the first time I paid attention to the details of the coming war—sorry, pre-emptive strike—and the bias was just too obvious to ignore. CNN had become simply a mouthpiece for the Bush Neo-Con administration. The fact that every salient "fact" turned out to be complete bull****e a few years later made me wonder about every war that's ever been declared and how often propaganda replaces truth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

CNN was built on the back of the first Iraq attack. They were given special access for covering Iraq II--so they had a choice between ratings and investigative journalism early on. Their quest for ratings trumped their leftist cred.



fjnmusic said:


> I didn't say I hadn't WATCHED CNN since 9-11; I said the post 9-11 coverage was where I really noticed the slanted coverage, particularly all the coverage leading up to the "pre-emptive strike" against Iraq in the form of the "shock and awe" campaign against Baghdad, based on the "best intelligence" suggesting Iraq had purchased quantities of "enriched plutonium" from a country in North Africa and could launch a strike against the USA with only 45 minutes warning. It was the first time I paid attention to the details of the coming war—sorry, pre-emptive strike—and the bias was just too obvious to ignore. CNN had become simply a mouthpiece for the Bush Neo-Con administration. The fact that every salient "fact" turned out to be complete bull****e a few years later made me wonder about every war that's ever been declared and how often propaganda replaces truth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> The fact that every salient "fact" turned out to be complete bull****e a few years later made me wonder about every war that's ever been declared and how often propaganda replaces truth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A close relative of mine was a chief gunnery officer on the B-29 firebombing raids of Tokyo. He never even mentioned this fact until a year or two before his death, and even after all those years I could tell it was very difficult for him to talk about it. Certainly he took no pride in the roll he played.

One thing he mentioned was that all the written reports on those raids and the other 59 cities that were similarly bombed were completely bogus. The planes did not come in at 5000 feet. They came in just above tree top level then had to gain altitude to safely drop their loads. More to the point the intended targets were the civilian population.

Emotionally he was really hit hard because his plane had to fly back over the carnage to take photographs, so he got to see the human torches first hand. In one sense he was lucky as General LeMay realized after the Tokyo raids that there was no airborn resistance so all but the tail gunners were replaced with additional payload.

These raids were all aimed squarely at the civilian population and over all killed at least a million civilians. Far more than the combined toll from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Similar raids were carried out against many German villages and towns, with only Dresdan being at well known. I have also talked to a survivor of one of those attacks and she said the Lancasters came in so low they could see the pilots faces. Again these raids were aimed entirely at civilian populations and we were supposedly the good guys.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yes my father was a RCAF pilot in the same war. He too never discusses much about the experience. He did say once that he witnessed much sadism.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> A close relative of mine was a chief gunnery officer on the B-29 firebombing raids of Tokyo. He never even mentioned this fact until a year or two before his death, and even after all those years I could tell it was very difficult for him to talk about it. Certainly he took no pride in the roll he played.
> 
> One thing he mentioned was that all the written reports on those raids and the other 59 cities that were similarly bombed were completely bogus. The planes did not come in at 5000 feet. They came in just above tree top level then had to gain altitude to safely drop their loads. More to the point the intended targets were the civilian population.
> 
> Emotionally he was really hit hard because his plane had to fly back over the carnage to take photographs, so he got to see the human torches first hand. In one sense he was lucky as General LeMay realized after the Tokyo raids that there was no airborn resistance so all but the tail gunners were replaced with additional payload.
> 
> These raids were all aimed squarely at the civilian population and over all killed at least a million civilians. Far more than the combined toll from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
> 
> Similar raids were carried out against many German villages and towns, with only Dresdan being at well known. I have also talked to a survivor of one of those attacks and she said the Lancasters came in so low they could see the pilots faces. Again these raids were aimed entirely at civilian populations and we were supposedly the good guys.



Sounds like a pretty horrible experience. I don't think anybody returns from war without being f-ed up some way. There are no winners in war, only survivors. Every time I hear a politician today making the case for some type of military intervention, I remember the propaganda of the Iraq War (slaughter really). And to think they banned the Dixie Chicks for speaking the truth. 


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> And to think they banned the Dixie Chicks for speaking the truth.


They really ought to have banned them for singing too.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> They really ought to have banned them for singing too.


Have mercy!


----------



## Macfury

No, there are winners at times. And the truth is not entirely in the directly opposite camp either.



fjnmusic said:


> There are no winners in war, only survivors. Every time I hear a politician today making the case for some type of military intervention, I remember the propaganda of the Iraq War (slaughter really). And to think they banned the Dixie Chicks for speaking the truth.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy wait until Netenyahoo sees this!


----------



## Macfury

I wonder how much he charged them in speaking fees to show up at the mosque?


----------



## fjnmusic

Sure seems to be a lot quieter on this thread ever since the Conservatives got their asses kicked. Perhaps the "accidental" government of Justin Trudeau has commentators tongues tied.


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## Macfury

Traffic on the board was way up.



fjnmusic said:


> Sure seems to be a lot quieter on this thread ever since the Conservatives got their asses kicked. Perhaps the "accidental" government of Justin Trudeau has commentators tongues tied.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Brilliant...

The triumph of drivel



> The Trudeau boy is a generation younger. In addition to snowboarding, his experience includes nightclub bouncer, and teaching high school in Vancouver. To many (me for instance), his father was a devil in human flesh, his mother demonstrably insane, yet the lad was not really exposed to politics until it came into his head, or into the heads of Liberal Party organizers, that thanks to his family connexion, he could probably get elected to Parliament, in Montreal. This happened in 2007; he now has approximately eight years of bewilderment under his belt. His acceptance speech last night was sort-of sweet; it showed him still quite damp behind the ears.
> 
> I don’t think he is especially malicious. He has plenty of old-school party advisers to surround him like bodyguards along his way. Indeed, through a leak we discovered they were already dividing the spoils of government contracts, as victory in Quebec came into view. The lad himself has the media savvy of the selfie generation, and can more or less handle the bofferball questions from a sympathetic press. His sincerity shines when it comes to a small range of policy enthusiasms, such as the legalization of marijuana and brothels, and he is visibly convinced that peace is much nicer than war. His promises of “hope and change” may be content-free, for the time being, but I’m sure he “believes” in the drivel he is mouthing. I expect he will prove more used than using, as his government agenda falls into place.


----------



## Macfury

Justin is in the thrall of his handlers? Ya think??!!

His greatest ability seems to be to stick two cliches together.


----------



## FeXL

The Conservatives supporters seem to be posting about the same amount. It's the NDP/Liberal supporters who have stopped posting their silly cartoons, memes & other content-free posts. Plus, there are some who are simply not responding to questions...



fjnmusic said:


> Sure seems to be a lot quieter on this thread ever since the Conservatives got their asses kicked. Perhaps the "accidental" government of Justin Trudeau has commentators tongues tied.


----------



## Vandave

I think the NDP supporters are just stunned. Half their brain says be happy and the other half is depressed and is sitting at the top of a bridge looking down into the water below. No cartoons to be seen. They are waiting for guidance.


----------



## Macfury

After seeing the thick, bitter tears at NDP headquarters, I may advise that they jump.



Vandave said:


> I think the NDP supporters are just stunned. Half their brain says be happy and the other half is depressed and is sitting at the top of a bridge looking down into the water below. No cartoons to be seen. They are waiting for guidance.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> The Conservatives supporters seem to be posting about the same amount. It's the NDP/Liberal supporters who have stopped posting their silly cartoons, memes & other content-free posts. Plus, there are some who are simply not responding to questions...



No need to rub salt into wounds, I'd say. Conservatives in Alberta have had a pretty rough year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

On the contrary, it's perfect. Truly.

Rachel is showing everyone her true colours & if there were an election held tomorrow she'd be gone, gone, gone. All we have to do is hunker down & weather another 3-1/2 years & the Alberta NDP will kiss their jobs goodbye.

Same with the Dauphin. The world has taken note, international business has already started to make adjustments, taxpayers will be bent over, the whole climate scam that he believes in will be revealed for what it is during his tenure, some of those "Syrian refugees" he plans on letting immigrate will have killed Canadians by then, his gun control proclivities will then backfire, his economic policy "from the heart" will have played out disastrously, his foreign policy is already under criticism from the States & Putin will play with him like a terrier worries a rat. He may make a second term but I doubt it.

All I'm going to do is invest in popcorn futures, drink craft beer & watch it play out. It's a perfect storm...



fjnmusic said:


> No need to rub salt into wounds, I'd say. Conservatives in Alberta have had a pretty rough year.


----------



## Vandave

I think Justin gets two terms, maybe three.

He will do a bunch of retail politics in his first year to give his lefties the sense he's different. Then he'll continue the same path we've gone down since Mulroney more or less. He will be a moderate and truly not far from Harper. It will be enough to keep the coalition of centre-left and centre-right together. It's going to take a long time before those swing voters feel fatigued and move further right and left respectively.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> I think Justin gets two terms, maybe three.
> 
> He will do a bunch of retail politics in his first year to give his lefties the sense he's different. Then he'll continue the same path we've gone down since Mulroney more or less. He will be a moderate and truly not far from Harper. It will be enough to keep the coalition of centre-left and centre-right together. It's going to take a long time before those swing voters feel fatigued and move further right and left respectively.


I'll feel fatigued before they do! Although I did not vote for Chretien I was never appalled by his government prior to the sponsorship scandal--although I did not like Paul Martin as PM. If Trudeau blunders stupidly between guideposts set by people with some intellect, I won't be overly worried. As much as I wanted the Conservatives to take this election, I never felt they were Conservative enough--I would have gone into high conservative gear in the last four years.


----------



## Vandave

I also think Trudeau is the real deal. I think the public collectively is underestimating the guy. It's easy to think he has little substance because he seemingly hasn't accomplished a lot prior to being PM, or maybe isn't the most eloquent guy or maybe is another pretty face. Some of that may very well be true, but this is a guy with balls and he doesn't give a ****. He who dares wins.

As a Conservative, I think the biggest mistake we can make is underestimating him. Let's skip the cartoons and passive aggressive comedy about him because it's not going to take.


----------



## Macfury

He's the real deal alright. But he's still something of a doofus.



Vandave said:


> I also think Trudeau is the real deal. I think the public collectively is underestimating the guy. It's easy to think he has little substance because he seemingly hasn't accomplished a lot prior to being PM, or maybe isn't the most eloquent guy or maybe is another pretty face. Some of that may very well be true, but this is a guy with balls and he doesn't give a ****. He who dares wins.
> 
> As a Conservative, I think the biggest mistake we can make is underestimating him. Let's skip the cartoons and passive aggressive comedy about him because it's not going to take.


----------



## Vandave

Macfury said:


> He's the real deal alright. But he's still something of a doofus.


I like the guy.

I knew he was the real deal when he stepped in the ring. No political advisor (and he has many) would suggest doing that because in their mind 50% chance you lose and handicap your politics forever. I thought he would eventually be PM after I watched the fight. He's got a pair. I also think he gives zero ****s. This guy will take political risks. In his mind, he's got nothing to lose. He will happily move on if his chances don't pan out. 

I guarantee he isn't going to be a standard politician. He's not a doofus. What you see isn't what he is. A fisherman can always spot a fisherman...


----------



## Macfury

I've met him. He came across as both self-assured and vapid.



Vandave said:


> I like the guy.
> 
> I knew he was the real deal when he stepped in the ring. No political advisor (and he has many) would suggest doing that because in their mind 50% chance you lose and handicap your politics forever. I thought he would eventually be PM after I watched the fight. He's got a pair. I also think he gives zero ****s. This guy will take political risks. In his mind, he's got nothing to lose. He will happily move on if his chances don't pan out.
> 
> I guarantee he isn't going to be a standard politician. He's not a doofus. What you see isn't what he is. A fisherman can always spot a fisherman...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> On the contrary, it's perfect. Truly.
> 
> 
> 
> Rachel is showing everyone her true colours & if there were an election held tomorrow she'd be gone, gone, gone. All we have to do is hunker down & weather another 3-1/2 years & the Alberta NDP will kiss their jobs goodbye.
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the Dauphin. The world has taken note, international business has already started to make adjustments, taxpayers will be bent over, the whole climate scam that he believes in will be revealed for what it is during his tenure, some of those "Syrian refugees" he plans on letting immigrate will have killed Canadians by then, his gun control proclivities will then backfire, his economic policy "from the heart" will have played out disastrously, his foreign policy is already under criticism from the States & Putin will play with him like a terrier worries a rat. He may make a second term but I doubt it.
> 
> 
> 
> All I'm going to do is invest in popcorn futures, drink craft beer & watch it play out. It's a perfect storm...



Boy you really do live in an alternate universe. Perhaps it's the same universe where this headline comes from that appeared in the Strathcona County news on Tuesday.









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## Vandave

Macfury said:


> I've met him. He came across as both self-assured and vapid.


We shall see.

My prediction is he wins whatever challenges come his way. By the end of his second term, I think people will finally see what I am saying now. The guy knows how to win and come out on top. He's not going to be an Obama.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> The guy knows how to win and come out on top.


I think if the election had been held two weeks ago he would not have come out on top. I think you're giving him too much credit.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> We shall see.
> 
> 
> 
> My prediction is he wins whatever challenges come his way. By the end of his second term, I think people will finally see what I am saying now. The guy knows how to win and come out on top. He's not going to be an Obama.



Did you see his boxing match against Patrick Brazeau in 2012? It's on the YouTubes. They underestimated him there as well—sort of a pattern I'm seeing. But the man is no pushover and delivered a strong and relentless decisive third round victory. He is no fool, and he knows hoe to fight to win. He knows how to find his opponents' vulnerabilities and capitalize on them while still leaving their dignity intact. In short, JT is going to be a great Prime Minister. Just watch him.


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I think if the election had been held two weeks ago he would not have come out on top. I think you're giving him too much credit.



I think your giving the alternatives too much credit. Harper is not really a leader—never has been. He does not inspire. Neither does Mulcair. This election was result was inevitable because the disgruntlement with the status quo had been building for many years. Harper was not a unifier, and never could be. It's not a part of his skill set. 


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## Macfury

He certainly does not inspire those who are driven by their emotions. He does inspire those driven by results. The election could have been won by either Harper, Mulcair or Trudeau depending on the election date.



fjnmusic said:


> I think your giving the alternatives too much credit. Harper is not really a leader—never has been. He does not inspire. Neither does Mulcair. This election was result was inevitable because the disgruntlement with the status quo had been building for many years. Harper was not a unifier, and never could be. It's not a part of his skill set.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> He certainly does not inspire those who are driven by their emotions. He does inspire those driven by results. The election could have been won by either Harper, Mulcair or Trudeau depending on the election date.



And yet your assertion is totally contradicted by the actual results. You were in denial then: you're still in denial now. If you don't think Trudeau inspires people, you just haven't been paying attention.


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## Macfury

No, my assertion is not contradicted by actual results. Trudeau won at the end of the election cycle. Mulcair would have won earlier in the election cycle. Harper would have won somewhere between.

Trudeau inspires people who do not have a high barrier for inspiration. He offers a sort of dime store salve to the type who are moved by Internet memes or mist up when they read a sentimental Hallmark card.



fjnmusic said:


> And yet your assertion is totally contradicted by the actual results. You were in denial then: you're still in denial now. If you don't think Trudeau inspires people, you just haven't been paying attention.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> No, my assertion is not contradicted by actual results. Trudeau won at the end of the election cycle. Mulcair would have won earlier in the election cycle. Harper would have won somewhere between.
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau inspires people who do not have a high barrier for inspiration. He offers a sort of dime store salve to the type who are moved by Internet memes or mist up when they read a sentimental Hallmark card.



I was giving you more credit for political acumen than you deserve, it seems. At any point in this election cycle, Harper's team would have lost, and the Libs were set to win over the long haul. If Harpee was smart, he would have ran a much shorter campaign. He gambled that he could outspend the other parties.

This election wass the classic Cinderella story and I pointed it out early in the campaign. I said the NDP were at a disadvantage because they started off in first place. The Libs came from behind and steadily increased as the campaign progressed. It's a classic story structure, with the protagonist succeeding against difficult obstacles, with the climax in pretty much the last week. Look at the long term graph for the Libs and you'll see a classic story plot line. And people love a good story. 


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## Macfury

It wasn't a Cinderella story at all. After a decade in power, voters become fatigued with any party--even one that delivers. The question was whether the CPC could eke out a minority government or whether the NDP or Liberals would be anointed to take them out. There were no clever campaigns or strategies delivered by any of the parties.



> If Harper was smart, he would have ran a much shorter campaign


. 

That's what I said. He would have won--or perhaps the NDP.




fjnmusic said:


> I was giving you more credit for political acumen than you deserve, it seems. At any point in this election cycle, Harper's team would have lost, and the Libs were set to win over the long haul. If Harper was smart, he would have ran a much shorter campaign. He gambled that he could outspend the other parties.
> 
> This election wass the classic Cinderella story and I pointed it out early in the campaign. I said the NDP were at a disadvantage because they started off in first place. The Libs came from behind and steadily increased as the campaign progressed. It's a classic story structure, with the protagonist succeeding against difficult obstacles, with the climax in pretty much the last week. Look at the long term graph for the Libs and you'll see a classic story plot line. And people love a good story.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> I think your giving the alternatives too much credit. Harper is not really a leader—never has been. He does not inspire. Neither does Mulcair. This election was result was inevitable because the disgruntlement with the status quo had been building for many years. Harper was not a unifier, and never could be. It's not a part of his skill set.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


He also threw a lot of people under one bus or another. Disabled vets, Muslims, dual citizens, those tainted by a single drop of American blood, Natives. Of course for every individual thrown under the bus there were spouses, children, business partners...

That arrogant indifference towards those his legislation hurt/damaged had to and did come back to bite him in a$$.


----------



## Vandave

I think this would have played out the same way no matter what arbitrary day we picked to vote. The NDP collapse was inevitable as was the Liberal surge.


----------



## MacGuiver

I say we conservatives fight fire with fire. We need our own Derek Zoolander. Privileged son on of a famous or infamous PM (depending who you ask), ridiculously good looking, youthful, celebrity over substance, age over experience, charisma over intellect. We could have all that with Mulroney Jr. No need for expensive election campaigns, we could settle this thing with a walk off.


----------



## FeXL

<snort>

Not. Even. Close.

Trudeau’s first move doesn’t bode well



> But perhaps more important is the question of teamwork. One of the ways in which we were told Trudeau would be different than Harper is that he would be less of a one-man show. Less dictatorial, more of a team player and consensus builder.
> 
> In fact, whenever someone criticized Trudeau’s credentials -- as I frequently did in election columns -- the main response was that what matters more in a leader is that they listen to those around him.
> 
> Yet this first move of Trudeau’s was made without listening to the team that was elected to join him in Ottawa. It was made from the top down.
> 
> There hasn’t been a caucus meeting yet. No defence minister has been announced. There is no cabinet.
> 
> *This first move by Trudeau is as equally single-minded as decisions made by Harper that prompted the outgoing PM’s detractors to label him a “dictator”.*


Emphasis mine.

Ed Zachery...

The Dauphin doesn't have the smarts nor the chops that his old man did. And, grudgingly, his old man was a helluva politician but he was _not_ a good prime minister. He practically bankrupted Alberta with the NEP, hardly a hallmark of good stewardship. All we will see here is unmitigated fluff from him & whatever his old school handlers can sneak past him when he's not looking.



fjnmusic said:


> ...JT is going to be a great Prime Minister.


----------



## FeXL

So, which is it?

Much as your ill informed views as to why the Alberta NDP got elected illustrate, once again you don't have a clew.



fjnmusic said:


> This election was result was inevitable because the *disgruntlement* with the status quo had been building for many years.





fjnmusic said:


> If you don't think Trudeau *inspires* people, you just haven't been paying attention.


----------



## FeXL

The Centre of the Universe votes...

A Glimpse into How PET Jr. Got Elected

Link to video from above.

Brilliant...


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> <snort>
> 
> Not. Even. Close.
> 
> 
> The Dauphin doesn't have the smarts nor the chops that his old man did. And, grudgingly, his old man was a helluva politician but he was _not_ a good prime minister. He practically bankrupted Alberta with the NEP, hardly a hallmark of good stewardship. All we will see here is unmitigated fluff from him & whatever his old school handlers can sneak past him when he's not looking.


There ya go! 

Which shall it be "he's worse than his old man," or is it "he'll never be the man his old man was?" 

I suppose the mood on any particular day will come into play.


----------



## Macfury

Putin is taking advantage of the election already. He knew Harper was no pushover, but having observed Justin's weakness over the past few years, he knew it was time to move into the Arctic.

This is Justin's chance to shine by "telling off Putin to his face" as he promised.

Russian bear pokes Canada - what will Trudeau do? | Canada | News | Toronto Sun



> It is by no coincidence — more by design — that the expansionist Putin regime announced plans Thursday for three new military bases in the Arctic. The Russian defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, boasted: “This is a really large base that was never seen during the Soviet times, and it has modern equipment, all of the needed equipment for these boundaries.”
> 
> So what say you, prime minister-designate Trudeau?
> 
> The Russian Bear is poking Canada and what do you plan to do?
> 
> There is a lot at stake in the Arctic — mining, exploration, new shipping channels and the territorial integrity of our country. There is also an enormous amount of international interest in the Arctic, that’s why the UN set up the Arctic Council to try and assess the merits of all the competing claims.
> 
> We have learned from Putin’s past behaviour that, if unchecked, an inch turns into miles. And if we consider occupation to be nine-tenths of ownership, Putin is laying the groundwork for squatters’ rights.
> 
> The safety and security of North America are clearly laid bare by Putin’s bold moves. Three functional, large and operational military bases in the Arctic could be seen as similar a manoeuvre as the Soviets establishing bases in Cuba.
> 
> As his first act as prime minister-designate, Trudeau pulled out of the coalition fight against ISIS and signalled to bullies like Putin that Canada is now a nation of pushovers.
> 
> During the election campaign, Trudeau promised to tell Putin off “directly to his face.” So has he made that phone call? Has he called in the Russian ambassador? Has he reached out to Arctic Council members? Has he done anything to respond to the world’s bully?
> 
> Here is your first test to show that you are an adult at the grown-up table, prime minister-designate Trudeau. What say you?


----------



## Macfury

Both. He will never be as savvy a politician as his old man and his legacy will probably be worse.

I would offer equal time to the Mulcair legacy--but he has not achieved one. Is he still MIA following his crushing defeat?





BigDL said:


> There ya go!
> 
> Which shall it be "he's worse than his old man," or is it "he'll never be the man his old man was?"
> 
> I suppose the mood on any particular day will come into play.


----------



## FeXL

They're one & the same. His old man was (again, grudgingly) very smart. This is something the Dauphin aspires to but simply doesn't have. 

And, none of this huggy, kissy, rule from the heart BS. As has been noted, he simply comes across as vapid. Even if he is not spineless he just screams, "Kick me! I'm a kickapoo!!"

Aggressive foreign leaders, not limited to but including Putin, will run roughshod over him.



BigDL said:


> Which shall it be "he's worse than his old man," or is it "he'll never be the man his old man was?"


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> So, which is it?
> 
> 
> 
> Much as your ill informed views as to why the Alberta NDP got elected illustrate, once again you don't have a clew.



That's "clue." Spelling counts, but only if it's right.


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## Macfury

"Clew" is a British English spelling of Clue. It's not common but still correct.

Would you have told your students they misspelled it?



fjnmusic said:


> That's "clue." Spelling counts, but only if it's right.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The asshole will not leave on his own apparently -

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/conservative-caucus-unrest-mounts/


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## Macfury

You didn't read the link again.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The asshole will not leave on his own apparently -
> 
> Conservative caucus unrest mounts - Macleans.ca


----------



## BigDL

So that's the reason for not wanting to look at possible Conservative leaders. The Conservatives are in disarray.



MacLeans said:


> The attempt to shield the Conservative party leadership from criticism is consistent with patterns that set in during the campaign itself. Sources said Novak was so defensive of Harper that he angrily rejected reports that the leader had become a personal liability for the Conservatives on the campaign trail. And there is growing concern in the party over Harper’s apparent plan to stay on as an MP.
> 
> “We can’t have the frank discussions that are necessary for renewal if Mr. Harper is there in the room, like Diefenbaker after he stopped being Tory leader,” one MP said.


 The PMO wants to retain all of its power and authority? Free speech and democracy too messy for them?


----------



## Macfury

I guess they are following the Liberal model, where the leader makes decisions before selecting a cabinet or interferes with nominations at the riding level.



BigDL said:


> So that's the reason for not wanting to look at possible Conservative leaders. The Conservatives are in disarray.
> 
> 
> 
> The PMO wants to retain all of its power and authority? Free speech and democracy too messy for them?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> "Clew" is a British English spelling of Clue. It's not common but still correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you have told your students they misspelled it?



Yes I would, unless they meant one of the following:
n.
1. A ball of yarn or thread.
2. Greek Mythology The ball of thread used by Theseus to find his way out of the labyrinth.
3. clews The cords by which a hammock is suspended.
4. also clue Nautical
a. One of the two lower corners of a square sail.
b. The lower aft corner of a fore-and-aft sail.
c. A metal loop attached to the lower corner of a sail.

We usually go for the common spelling of words, not the archaic or unusual ones, but if a student like yourself made a strong case for why the British variant would be preferable in a given situation, I would likely make an exception. Either way, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. 


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## Macfury

Sure, neighb*OU*r.




fjnmusic said:


> Yes I would, unless they meant one of the following:
> n.
> 1. A ball of yarn or thread.
> 2. Greek Mythology The ball of thread used by Theseus to find his way out of the labyrinth.
> 3. clews The cords by which a hammock is suspended.
> 4. also clue Nautical
> a. One of the two lower corners of a square sail.
> b. The lower aft corner of a fore-and-aft sail.
> c. A metal loop attached to the lower corner of a sail.
> 
> We usually go for the common spelling of words, not the archaic or unusual ones, but if a student like yourself made a strong case for why the British variant would be preferable in a given situation, I would likely make an exception. Either way, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Some people are just clewless.


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## FeXL

I've explained my use of the word "clew" on these boards before. It's a perfectly valid word. If you missed it, please feel free to search for it using that very term. 

As you are being pedantic, might I suggest that a better word for "right" would be "correct".

Now that we have that out of the way, quit dodging the issue. Which of the two options is it? Or is there new data in the equation & you've changed your mind?



fjnmusic said:


> That's "clue." Spelling counts, but only if it's right.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> I've explained my use of the word "clew" on these boards before. It's a perfectly valid word. If you missed it, please feel free to search for it using that very term.
> 
> 
> 
> As you are being pedantic, might I suggest that a better word for "right" would be "correct".
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we have that out of the way, quit dodging the issue. Which of the two options is it? Or is there new data in the equation & you've changed your mind?



Sorry. Did you ask a question at some point?


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## rgray




----------



## rgray




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## rgray




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## FeXL

I dunno. Go back & check...



fjnmusic said:


> Sorry. Did you ask a question at some point?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Prime Minister Trudeau II moving out of his rental home today. They will not be moving into 24 Sussex. Apparently the stench of Harper's 10 years in the property is overwhelming. A 10 million dollar renovation required to get the Harper smell out.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> I dunno. Go back & check...



You're apparently the one asking the question, bub. You can go back and check. Hard for me to check on something I don't remember. It seems important to you, but I honestly have no recollection. It it had to with who's going to win the election, I think that's already been established. And how. 


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## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Prime Minister Trudeau II moving out of his rental home today. They will not be moving into 24 Sussex. Apparently the stench of Harper's 10 years in the property is overwhelming. A 10 million dollar renovation required to get the Harper smell out.
> View attachment 62449



It's like going home for JT. He's already spent more years living at 24 Sussex before moving back in than Harper has. 


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## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Now that we have that out of the way, quit dodging the issue. Which of the two options is it? Or is there new data in the equation & you've changed your mind?



Is THIS what you're going on about? That people were tired of the status quo for the past ten years and they find Trudeau inspiring? Are these two observations somehow contradictory in your mind? People can't be fed up with the Harper team and inspired by the Trudeau team? I think you may be losing your grip there, buddy.

Here's a metaphorical quarter; buy a clew. Or better yet, just look at the numbers: a 184 seat come from behind majority (an increase of 149 seats) would seem to indicate that you and your fellow right wingers (and Gretzky, though he was a centre) perhaps may have backed the wrong horse. Just maybe. 




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## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Prime Minister Trudeau II moving out of his rental home today. They will not be moving into 24 Sussex. Apparently the stench of Harper's 10 years in the property is overwhelming. A 10 million dollar renovation required to get the Harper smell out.
> View attachment 62449


I'm of the opinion remediation of the property should be costed out then compared to building new official residence. If remediation costs are nearly same or greater then build a new official residence at 24 Sussex.


----------



## FeXL

It was in the very post containing "clew" that you quoted. You were peeing yourself so much over what you read as a spelling mistake that you glossed over the actual content of the post.

Squirrel!!!



fjnmusic said:


> You can go back and check. Hard for me to check on something I don't remember. It seems important to you, but I honestly have no recollection.


Very. For instance, in the Albera provincial election the populace was disgruntled with the Conservatives but the NDP were a grain or two short of "inspirational". They were merely a convenient alternative. As was illustrated when all those closet Alberta lefties did not vote NDP federally...



fjnmusic said:


> Are these two observations somehow contradictory in your mind?


----------



## FeXL

Seem to recall a fair amount of criticism from the left on Harper's senate appointments. "Political patronage" & "Stacking the deck" are terms that come to mind. We'll see if that criticism flies both ways.

First, The Dauphin's problem:

Conservative majority in Senate could give Trudeau problems in passing bills



> ustin Trudeau's forthcoming legislative agenda could face roadblocks in the Senate, requiring his Liberal government to negotiate concessions with Conservative senators who hold the hammer of the majority in the upper chamber.
> 
> The Tories hold the most seats in the upper chamber and would be able to use that leverage to slow down legislation, force amendments or push their own private member's bills up higher on the Senate's agenda.


The solution?



> There are 22 vacant seats in the Senate; another opens up in February with the impending retirement of Conservative Irving Gerstein, the party's top fundraiser. By the end of 2016, there will be 26 vacant seats as Conservative Michel Rivard and Liberals Celine Hervieux-Payette and David Smith hit the mandatory retirement age of 75.
> 
> *Filling all those seats with Liberal-minded senators would give Trudeau more than half of the 105 seats in the Senate.*


M'bold.

I await the objectivity with bated breath...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> It was in the very post containing "clew" that you quoted. You were peeing yourself so much over what you read as a spelling mistake that you glossed over the actual content of the post.
> 
> 
> 
> Squirrel!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very. For instance, in the Albera provincial election the populace was disgruntled with the Conservatives but the NDP were a grain or two short of "inspirational". They were merely a convenient alternative. As was illustrated when all those closet Alberta lefties did not vote NDP federally...



Talk about squirrels. I still don't know what you're talking about and your passive-aggressive tactic is not making things any clearer. I feel "clewless" in fact. I was talking about the federal gov't in both cases. I don't know what you're talking about. Best you clarify your issue. 

As far as Alberta goes, there was nothing stopping voters from voting Wildrose if they didn't want to shift to the left. That's not what they chose. Federally, the NDP did not put forth as strong a case as the Libs did, and the best leader by far of the three is the man who won. Mulcair blew it for me when he said he'd abolish the Senate and when he harassed Trudeau at the first debate into saying what number would be acceptable for Quebec separation. These were not the marks of a leader, but a bully in the making as much as Harper was already a full grown bully. I voted NDP provincially and Lib federally because each of the platforms are things I agree with (for the most part) and each had the best leadership.


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> As far as Alberta goes, there was nothing stopping voters from voting Wildrose if they didn't want to shift to the left.


Yes there was--it was the stench of Wildrose defection to the Conservatives that only a few escaped. Had that not happened, Wildrose would be the government today. 

Alberta isn't composed entirely of gape mouthed helpless types with their hands held in hopes of receiving dollops of other people's money.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yes there was--it was the stench of Wildrose defection to the Conservatives that only a few escaped. Had that not happened, Wildrose would be the government today.



So what you're verifying, over and over again, is that the conservative parties in Alberta really suck. Which apparently the rest of both Alberta and Canada agree with. Odd that you seem both surprised and disappointed by the results of these two elections this year. 


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## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Seem to recall a fair amount of criticism from the left on Harper's senate appointments. "Political patronage" & "Stacking the deck" are terms that come to mind. We'll see if that criticism flies both ways.
> 
> 
> 
> First, The Dauphin's problem:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative majority in Senate could give Trudeau problems in passing bills
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The solution?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> 
> 
> I await the objectivity with bated breath...



It's not the patronage that is the problem; that's a given. The PM can appoint whomever he or she sees fit. Harper would have been wise to stack the deck before vacating office. The problem is the actual individuals that Harper chose being unsuited for the work to which they were assigned. There are many very good senators; Tommy Banks comes to mind, for example. A few bad ones do lot spoil the whole bunch. These aren't fruits we're talking about. 


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## Macfury

They suck to the degree that they tilted to the left. They received a warning shot with the NDP victory, but there may not be much left of Alberta to save after the punishment is through.



fjnmusic said:


> So what you're verifying, over and over again, is that the conservative parties in Alberta really suck. Which apparently the rest of both Alberta and Canada agree with. Odd that you seem both surprised and disappointed by the results of these two elections this year.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> They suck to the degree that they tilted to the left. They received a warning shot with the NDP victory, but there may not be much left of Alberta to save after the punishment is through.



I wouldn't blame the NDP then. They and the Libs won fair and square. Who you should really be blaming, if you need to blame anyone, is your own Conservative and Progressive Conservative parties both provincially and federally. Perhaps you need to also give your head a shake as to what you believe in, because now you no longer represent the majority view. Maybe it's the Conservative platform itself that sucks. 


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## Macfury

The "progressive" tendencies of the "Progressive" Conservative party of Alberta sucked, yes.



fjnmusic said:


> I wouldn't blame the NDP then. They and the Libs won fair and square. Who you should really be blaming, if you need to blame anyone, is your own Conservative and Progressive Conservative parties both provincially and federally. Perhaps you need to also give your head a shake as to what you believe in, because now you no longer represent the majority view. Maybe it's the Conservative platform itself that sucks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The "progressive" tendencies of the "Progressive" Conservative party of Alberta sucked, yes.



And yet, it's those progressive policies of other parties that have got them elected, and elected with sizable majorities, here in the year 2015. Perhaps your views are just out of step with the times. Maybe all those conservative views are just the relics of a bygone era, like when the ****e sticks to a dog's fur. 


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> And yet, it's those progressive policies of other parties that have got them elected, and elected with sizable majorities, here in the year 2015. Perhaps your views are just out of step with the times. Maybe all those conservative views are just the relics of a bygone era, like when the ****e sticks to a dog's fur.


Watch it stick to blonde hair in three years time here in Alberta.


----------



## Macfury

Not the NDP in Alberta, sicne it was a punihment vote, not a "pro" vote--and probably not Trudeau either. I saw a survey of voters who voted for Trudeau in droves believing he would offer the biggest income tax cuts.



fjnmusic said:


> And yet, it's those progressive policies of other parties that have got them elected, and elected with sizable majorities, here in the year 2015. Perhaps your views are just out of step with the times. Maybe all those conservative views are just the relics of a bygone era, like when the ****e sticks to a dog's fur.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Not the NDP in Alberta, sicne it was a punihment vote, not a "pro" vote--and probably not Trudeau either. I saw a survey of voters who voted for Trudeau in droves believing he would offer the biggest income tax cuts.



Never drink before typing. 


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## rgray




----------



## FeXL

What you miss time & time again is that the reason the Alberta "conservative" parties failed this past provincial election was leadership. Prentice & Smith both proved themselves untenable, leaving supporters for both Conservatives & Wildrose in a lurch & the NDP capitalized on the protest vote.

You also bring up, ad nauseum, that they won fair & square, blah, blah, blah. No one questions that. How they actually arrived at that result is the issue you keep getting wrong. This province does _not_ love the NDP.



fjnmusic said:


> So what you're verifying, over and over again, is that the conservative parties in Alberta really suck. Which apparently the rest of both Alberta and Canada agree with. Odd that you seem both surprised and disappointed by the results of these two elections this year.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## BigDL

So OGL has not uttered a word regarding stepping down himself, is OGL taking a lesson from his Strong Man associate Vlad Putin? 

Is is going to sandbag himself for a while to rise again and be the leader once again like Putin.

After all it is The Harper Conservatives is it not?


----------



## FeXL

Justin's throwing in the towel? 



BigDL said:


> So OGL has not uttered a word regarding stepping down himself...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> What you miss time & time again is that the reason the Alberta "conservative" parties failed this past provincial election was leadership. Prentice & Smith both proved themselves untenable, leaving supporters for both Conservatives & Wildrose in a lurch & the NDP capitalized on the protest vote.
> 
> 
> 
> You also bring up, ad nauseum, that they won fair & square, blah, blah, blah. No one questions that. How they actually arrived at that result is the issue you keep getting wrong. This province does _not_ love the NDP.



You keep telling yourself that, love. But it's simple arithmetic. If Albertans HATED the Alberta NDP under Rachel Notley, they would have voted for another party. What you fail to understand, time and time again, as nauseum, is that both conservative options in Alberta sucked. In fact they sucked so bad, that the people who normally swing to the right swung way to the left. Doesn't even really matter why, but they did it. The conservative platform in either PC or WR flavor was no longer working in Alberta. 

Federally, Albertans showed their true colors once again and lost big time. We voted in more opposition MP's than any other province—yay us! Not very helpful when you need to get things done or want to have an MP in cabinet. However, despite our putting all eggs in one basket once again, I have a feeling that Notley and Trudeau will find they have much in common vision-wise.


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## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> So OGL has not uttered a word regarding stepping down himself, is OGL taking a lesson from his Strong Man associate Vlad Putin?
> 
> 
> 
> Is is going to sandbag himself for a while to rise again and be the leader once again like Putin.
> 
> 
> 
> After all it is The Harper Conservatives is it not?



Not just the Harper conservatives; the Harper government. 


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You keep telling yourself that, love. But it's simple arithmetic. If Albertans HATED the Alberta NDP under Rachel Notley, they would have voted for another party.


Nope. They were punishing the Conservatives and Wild Rose with an unknown quantity. They already knew what Liberals would do. Same thing happened in Ontario. Bill Davis' PCs were already on notice for profligate spending and Liberal David Peterson had just won an election, then called another shortly demanding a majority. Many embarrassed Ontarians refused to admit voting for the NDP. Beyond committed socialists and government clingers you couldn't find enough admitted protest voters to fill a canoe.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> So OGL has not uttered a word regarding stepping down himself, is OGL taking a lesson from his Strong Man associate Vlad Putin?
> 
> 
> 
> Is is going to sandbag himself for a while to rise again and be the leader once again like Putin.
> 
> 
> 
> After all it is The Harper Conservatives is it not?



Take a look at the parliamentary web site. He is no longer a MP. 

So long Steve.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Justin's throwing in the towel?


OGL (Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster) = Stephen Harper 

Please follow along. What is the attention span of gnat anyway?


----------



## Macfury

You're hallucinating.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Take a look at the parliamentary web site. He is no longer a MP.
> 
> So long Steve.


----------



## FeXL

Agreed. It is very simple. Unfortunately, you missed class that day.



fjnmusic said:


> But it's simple arithmetic.


There is no such thing as Alberta NDP. As explained & illustrated before, all NDP Canada-wide are one & the same party. In realization of the errors made provincially, Albertans didn't make the same mistake federally. That in itself is further evidence that we are not a leftwing province & the election of the NDP in Alberta was a protest vote against the Conservatives & something short of a ringing endorsement for Notley & her boss Mulcair.



fjnmusic said:


> If Albertans HATED the Alberta NDP under Rachel Notley, they would have voted for another party.


One option sucked. Conservatives definitely did, mostly because of Prentice & his arrogance. However, the doubt in voters minds regarding WR was the abandonment by Smith with no proven leader to fill the position. It had little to do with the platform. I attended several town meetings locally & not one question was raised about the WR platform, aside from commenting favourably. Nearly everybody who posed a question to the WR candidate asked about their leadership. There were many questions for the previously WR candidate & his crossing over to the Conservatives regarding loyalty.



fjnmusic said:


> What you fail to understand, time and time again, as nauseum, is that both conservative options in Alberta sucked.


Yes, they did. It's called a protest vote, something which many of us here have been aware of since day one.



fjnmusic said:


> In fact they sucked so bad, that the people who normally swing to the right swung way to the left.


It matters to those who understand why the vote went the way it did & what ramifications that holds for future Alberta elections. Rachel in particular should be paying close attention.



fjnmusic said:


> Doesn't even really matter why, but they did it.


Finally!!! Why yes, yes we did. We didn't vote NDP (or Liberal, for that matter). That's the point I've been making for weeks now. Thank you for realizing that, after all this time.



fjnmusic said:


> Federally, Albertans showed their true colors once again...


So, what's the thrust here? We should have strategically voted Liberal so that we can get free stuff from the Feds? FFS...



fjnmusic said:


> We voted in more opposition MP's than any other province—yay us! Not very helpful when you need to get things done or want to have an MP in cabinet.


No argument. I entirely agree that they both have very similar mindsets & visions. beejacon (narrow & none are the first words that come to mind...)



fjnmusic said:


> However, despite our putting all eggs in one basket once again, I have a feeling that Notley and Trudeau will find they have much in common vision-wise.


----------



## FeXL

Dunno. Look in the mirror, watch in hand & tell me.



BigDL said:


> What is the attention span of gnat anyway?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Funny as heck. There was a hack yesterday. It said he was no longer a MP. It's been corrected. 

Too bad!


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Agreed. It is very simple. Unfortunately, you missed class that day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as Alberta NDP. As explained & illustrated before, all NDP Canada-wide are one & the same party. In realization of the errors made provincially, Albertans didn't make the same mistake federally. That in itself is further evidence that we are not a leftwing province & the election of the NDP in Alberta was a protest vote against the Conservatives & something short of a ringing endorsement for Notley & her boss Mulcair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One option sucked. Conservatives definitely did, mostly because of Prentice & his arrogance. However, the doubt in voters minds regarding WR was the abandonment by Smith with no proven leader to fill the position. It had little to do with the platform. I attended several town meetings locally & not one question was raised about the WR platform, aside from commenting favourably. Nearly everybody who posed a question to the WR candidate asked about their leadership. There were many questions for the previously WR candidate & his crossing over to the Conservatives regarding loyalty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they did. It's called a protest vote, something which many of us here have been aware of since day one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It matters to those who understand why the vote went the way it did & what ramifications that holds for future Alberta elections. Rachel in particular should be paying close attention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally!!! Why yes, yes we did. We didn't vote NDP (or Liberal, for that matter). That's the point I've been making for weeks now. Thank you for realizing that, after all this time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's the thrust here? We should have strategically voted Liberal so that we can get free stuff from the Feds? FFS...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No argument. I entirely agree that they both have very similar mindsets & visions. beejacon (narrow & none are the first words that come to mind...)



Alberta does not have a history of voting "strategically", if by "strategically" you mean voting collectively in each jurisdiction to defeat the incumbent. This federal election was not a strategic vote by a long shot. People aren't that organized. They like what they like. Here in Alberta, even if we don't like Harper, we tend to vote the way our pappy taught us. 

Real strategic voting would mean thinking outside the box and coming up with a strategy to get you the most seats in government no matter who wins the election. The other provinces figured this out—maybe except Atlantic Canada, but they Win BIG this time. This federal election for Alberta was the typical result of putting almost all of your eggs in one basket. This was a result of the failing to read the tea leaves. The polls indicted a clear trend which several people in this forum failed to understand. If you really want to vote strategically you elect a little bit all three major parties in all areas of the province so that you have some representation no matter who makes government. In Alberta, we have one NDP, four Libs and the rest are Cons. We voted for the official opposition in droves—boy, that's going to be a strong voice in Ottawa. Albertans are like sheep—sheep to the slaughter in this case.

Our only hope is that since both the Alberta NDP (thankfully, a separate entity from its federal counterparts that is fully capable of thinking for itself) and the federal Libs have common ground as left-leaning parties (and Alberta NDP would be called Liberals anywhere else), we may be able to accomplish something. We shall see after Tuesday's budget what Alberta's priorities will be, though if you have been paying attention, you should be able to guess.


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Albert does not have a history of voting strategically. This federal election was not a strategic vote by a long shot.


Agreed. Punishing parties is not strategic voting--it's just punishment.



fjnmusic said:


> If you really want to vote strategically you elect a little bit all three major parties in all areas of the province so that you have some representation no matter who makes government.


That's a terrible concept. Why vote for a party whose policies you despise--so that they will listen to you when you beg them not to enact their policies?



fjnmusic said:


> Our only hope is that since both the Alberta NDP (thankfully, a separate entity from its federal counterparts that is fully capable of thinking for itself) a...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party



> Unlike most other Canadian parties, the NDP is integrated with its provincial and territorial parties. Membership lists are maintained by the provinces and territories. Being a member of a provincial or territorial section of the NDP includes automatic membership in the federal party. This precludes a person from supporting different parties at the federal and provincial levels.





fjnmusic said:


> ...and the federal Libs have common ground as left-leaning parties (and Alberta NDP would be called Liberals anywhere else), we may be able to accomplish something.


I would call the federal Liberals centrists and the Alberta wing of the federal NDP socialists.


----------



## fjnmusic

Why vote for a party you despise? I don't think I'm encouraging that, but sometimes you have to vote for the party you disagree with the least. Or like many people, you vote for the party with the leader you think has the most potential. In any event, if all of your jurisdiction's votes go to the opposition party, you're not likely to see much of what you want to see done by government. Instead, your party gets to sit on the sidelines and bitch and moan for the next four years. Doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me. At least, not if you want to actually accomplish anything. 

Fortunately for Alberta, there are two Libs in Edmonton and two in Calgary, some of whom could get cabinet posts and have more influence. 

The new PM-designate also seems somewhat more conciliatory in that he has invited ALL of his former rivals, even Harper, to the upcoming climate change conference. Will it help improve relations? As Dr. G is fond of saying, we shall see. 


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## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Dunno. Look in the mirror, watch in hand & tell me.


Such a rejoinder me thinks you're some kind of wit, half, dim or nit...I'm contemplating the choices.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> In any event, if all of your jurisdiction's votes go to the opposition party, you're not likely to see much of what you want to see done by government. Instead, your party gets to sit on the sidelines and bitch and moan for the next four years. Doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me. At least, not if you want to actually accomplish anything.
> 
> Fortunately for Alberta, there are two Libs in Edmonton and two in Calgary, some of whom could get cabinet posts and have more influence.


Your view of government is typically "progressive." What goodies can my riding get if my MP is appointed a cabinet minister? 

I would rather elect a CPC member in opposition in my riding than to have a member of the Liberals rise to cabinet. What could a Liberal possibly do for me that I would appreciate?



fjnmusic said:


> The new PM-designate also seems somewhat more conciliatory in that he has invited ALL of his former rivals, even Harper, to the upcoming climate change conference. Will it help improve relations?


Of course it is not conciliatory. It is a conference devoid of any common sense, but would up Trudeau's cred if people accepted his loaded offer.


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> The new PM-designate also seems somewhat more conciliatory in that he has invited ALL of his former rivals, even Harper, to the upcoming climate change conference. Will it help improve relations?


I'd chalk this up to retail politics. Every time a new leader and party get elected, they quickly do a bunch of easy things to give the public the impression that things are finally different.

I trade stocks and one of the rules most people, myself included, use is to trade with trends. Don't fight the trend. And, the trend of every single Federal government has been to centralize power to the PMO early on. You willing to bet against that trend?

The true proof will be in the pudding. Watch what people do, not what they say. I'm sure Trudeau will do all he can to keep up appearances, but let's watch actual outcomes.

Being cynical on this issue, consider that Chretien often 'stole' ideas from his opponents when he saw their popularity. That has served the Liberal Party well in the past. Being in the middle makes taking other ideas easy. Watch them spin this as cooperation. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> And, the trend of every single Federal government has been to centralize power to the PMO early on. You willing to bet against that trend?


Look at the "open" Liberal nominating process. Party power had already been centralized prior to the election.


----------



## heavyall

Vandave said:


> consider that Chretien often 'stole' ideas from his opponents when he saw their popularity. That has served the Liberal Party well in the past


Trudeau Sr. did the same thing. Whenever he had no idea what to do, he just did whatever Stanfield or Clark proposed -- even if voting against that plan was a central pillar of his campaign, or if voting that policy down was what triggered the very election that brought him to power.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Trudeau Sr. did the same thing. Whenever he had no idea what to do, he just did whatever Stanfield or Clark proposed -- even if voting against that plan was a central pillar of his campaign, or if voting that policy down was what triggered the very election that brought him to power.



Oh fuddle-duddle, Heavyall. 


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## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Whose expectations are those supposed to be? The Liberal party? Liberal MPs? Liberal voters?



rgray said:


>


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> Whose expectations are those supposed to be? The Liberal party? Liberal MPs? Liberal voters?


I would say they need to be concerned with all three sectors.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> I would say they need to be concerned with all three sectors.


I mean in the cartoon you posted. Clearly, they need to be very concerned.


----------



## FeXL

I did. The Conservatives...



fjnmusic said:


> ...sometimes you have to vote for the party you disagree with the least.


My, how big of him. That's not being conciliatory. That's hoping against hope that he can drum up more support for a lost cause.



fjnmusic said:


> The new PM-designate also seems somewhat more conciliatory in that he has invited ALL of his former rivals, even Harper, to the upcoming climate change conference.


----------



## FeXL

It's no more infantile than your OP.

You inject grade school mentality into the dialog & are critical when you are met with the same? Curious, that.

Post something of substance on these boards, something we can sink our teeth into. Then you'll rate an adult to adult response...



BigDL said:


> Such a rejoinder me thinks you're some kind of wit, half, dim or nit...I'm contemplating the choices.


----------



## Rps

It might be wise to consider we had an increase of 38 seats this election. Also, the Cons were left with 99 seats, hardly the stuff of Mulroney's PCs.
As for the NDP, the knives are out already. Not sure if their party rules require a mandatory leadership review or not......but troubles brewing. I think somewhere Preston Manning must be smiling a knowing smile right about now.


----------



## FeXL

Whatever the numbers are, they won't be Albertan's priorities. They will be the priorities of the NDP gov't, of which only 40% of the province actually voted for in the first place & many of those came as a protest vote.



fjnmusic said:


> We shall see after Tuesday's budget what Alberta's priorities will be, though if you have been paying attention, you should be able to guess.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Whatever the numbers are, they won't be Albertan's priorities. They will be the priorities of the NDP gov't, of which only 40% of the province actually voted for.


And you can put money on any union not being touched in any type of cuts.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> And you can put money on any union not being touched in any type of cuts.


That comes later when the province faces utter ruin. Job sharing and extra holidays with no pay.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Whatever the numbers are, they won't be Albertan's priorities. They will be the priorities of the NDP gov't, of which only 40% of the province actually voted for in the first place & many of those came as a protest vote.



You seem to forget that 40% is a very good showing in a multi-party system. 


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> You seem to forget that 40% is a very good showing in a multi-party system.


And you conveniently forget that 60% who did not support the NDP is a healthy majority against the party and what it stands for, hmmmm?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> And you conveniently forget that 60% who did not support the NDP is a healthy majority against the party and what it stands for, hmmmm?


The very same can said of the CPC's in results from the last election. 

In fact over 67% of voters, voted against the Conservatives with the Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster (OGL) in charge. :clap:

Electoral Results by Party


----------



## Rps

Or expressed another way, almost 60% of Canadians voted against the Liberals.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Or expressed another way, almost 60% of Canadians voted against the Liberals.


LOL! Yep, point taken, or at least it should be.


----------



## Macfury

It's interesting to think about voting _against_. While I am no fan of Justin Trudeau, I was primarily voting _for_ the CPC, heavily _against_ the NDP, and moderately against the Liberals. I did not vote _against_ the Greens (no chance) or the Bloc (wrong jurisdiction). 

A lot of the "vote against" calculations are simply semantics.


----------



## rgray

Rps said:


> Or expressed another way, almost 60% of Canadians voted against the Liberals.


By that "logic" more Canadians voted against the Cons in the previous election when they got their "majority".....


----------



## FeXL

By whose measure?

The Conservatives had Liberal Jim Prentice at the helm & who had just proposed one of the worst budgets this province has seen since the Conservatives took the reins. He had conducted a survey of what Albertans wanted & completely ignored their input. The Conservative name was (is) mud.

Wildrose had the leader & 9 MLA's cross over to the Conservatives mere weeks before the election, leaving them with a completely unknown factor to take over the reins & massive nonconfidence & feelings of betrayal across the province.

The Alberta political right split far more of the vote than the left did & between them, black eyes & all, still managed 53% of the popular vote.

The Liberals & NDP had no such black marks, collected untold numbers of protest votes, yet still only managed to garner 44% of the popular vote between them. Not exactly a ringing endorsement by _any_ measure, multi-party system or no.



fjnmusic said:


> You seem to forget that 40% is a very good showing in a multi-party system.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> And you conveniently forget that 60% who did not support the NDP is a healthy majority against the party and what it stands for, hmmmm?



There was an even greater number that was against each of the Progressive Conservative and Wildrose Parties. How conveniently we forget how the popular vote works when we're in the minority, hmmmm?


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## skippythebushkangaroo

I think that point has been made by a number of people here. All the more reason to adopt consensus decision making via proportional representation. 

An end to tyranny of the minority.


----------



## Rps

rgray said:


> By that "logic" more Canadians voted against the Cons in the previous election when they got their "majority".....


Welcome to the world of pundits.


----------



## Macfury

Nope.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I think that point has been made by a number of people here. All the more reason to adopt consensus decision making via proportional representation.
> 
> An end to tyranny of the minority.


----------



## CubaMark

*Some of you may find the comments from recently-defeated Nova Scotia NDP MP Peter Stoffer of interest:
*

*Peter Stoffer, former Nova Scotia MP, suggests dropping N from NDP*








The New Democratic Party should drop the word "new," says former MP Peter Stoffer.

The 18-year veteran politician, who lost his East Coast riding last week, suggests the New Democrats should consider becoming the Democratic Party.

"It is a simple change, it's superficial ... but if you just call yourselves the Democrats ... people can digest that very easily," he said.

Stoffer, who was among those who pushed for structural party reform in 2001, also favours separating the federal and provincial wings of the NDP.

"If you join, for example, the Ontario NDP, you're an automatic member of the federal NDP," he said. "That has to change.

"We need to break that sort of string that ties us both together ... We're the only party that does that. I've been asking for many, many years now to change it and I think it's time we did that."

He also said the party should abandon the 1961 agreement that brought the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation and the Canadian Labour Congress together to form the NDP.

"The reality is, labour votes the way they want to vote and that's the way it should be," he said. "But no political party should be tied to any ... one group over others. We should be a true democratic party for every single Canadian.

"Labour and the NDP need to have that mature conversation and say 'let's be the best of friends, let's ... work together for social change in this country', but don't necessarily need to be formally aligned."​
(CBC)


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## Macfury

I don't wish the NDP well, but separating into provincial and federal organizations makes a lot of sense.

Dropping the "New" will make no difference. Officially changing it to NDP a la KD (Kraft Dinner) makes more sense.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Officially changing it to NDP a la KD (Kraft Dinner) makes more sense.


Well, it _is_ orange....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Well, it _is_ orange....


And kind of lumpy like that cheese sauce...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> And kind of lumpy like that cheese sauce...



Two separate entities....like Macaroni & Cheese versus Kraft Dinner.


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## SINC

The free world has lost its leader | Washington Examiner


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The free world has lost its leader | Washington Examiner


That's true. With both Trudeau and Obama elected, there's a power vacuum in North America that will continue to suck wind for some time.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> The free world has lost its leader | Washington Examiner


One man's opinion changes everything and undoes the spanking OGL received from the Canadian electorate? 

Oh right! You would agree with the opinion. So it's proof of something?


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> One man's opinion changes everything and undoes the spanking OGL received from the Canadian electorate?
> 
> Oh right! You would agree with the opinion. So it's proof of something?


As usual, you have no clue and this post once again shows your only real intent, ie a SD.


----------



## BigDL

Well old pal, which is better to be to SD or be sheeple?


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## SINC

Carry on making an ass out of yourself, you're doing a great job so far.


----------



## Macfury

It's simply an eloquent and accurate assessment. Nothing more.



BigDL said:


> One man's opinion changes everything and undoes the spanking OGL received from the Canadian electorate?


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Carry on making an ass out of yourself, you're doing a great job so far.


My good friend, I hope all is well with you?


----------



## eMacMan

I see the Harpo as more of a pusher than a leader. He pushed roughly a million Canadians, who have the misfortune to have some slight American contamination, under the C-31 omni-bus. He pushed disabled Canadian veterans under an omni-bus. He pushed dual citizens under the C-24 bus. He pushed Muslims under the fear and hatred bus, along with Native Canadians. Anyone left standing he pushed under the C-51 Big Brother bus.

Always pushing he never led, though he did wind up being run over by the election bus, but that was just collateral damage. Turns out buses with that many bodies under them are hard to steer!


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness Justin Trudeau will overturn FATCA... right?



eMacMan said:


> I see the Harpo as more of a pusher than a leader. He pushed roughly a million Canadians, who have the misfortune to have some slight American contamination, under the C-31 omni-bus. He pushed disabled Canadian veterans under an omni-bus. He pushed dual citizens under the C-24 bus. He pushed Muslims under the fear and hatred bus, along with Native Canadians. Anyone left standing he pushed under the C-51 Big Brother bus.
> 
> Always pushing he never led, though he did wind up being run over by the election bus, but that was just collateral damage. Turns out buses with that many bodies under them are hard to steer!


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Thank goodness Justin Trudeau will overturn FATCA... right?


Not betting my life savings on it, although it would be a pleasant surprise to discover he has a backbone.

He is in the same awkward position as was the Harpo. He has to decide if his responsibility is to the Banksters and the IRS juggernaut, or to the citizens of Canada and his daddy's Charter of Rights. There is no middle ground on this one. 

For Harpo the choice was easy, he hated the Constitution and despised the electorate so it was easy to tell all those Canadians to hand over their life savings to the IRS. Even though they owe nothing in US taxes. Even though half of those savings may belong to their spouse or business partner.


----------



## FeXL

Spanking? I don't recall anyone using this word when Haper won his majority with nearly the exact same percentage of voters. 40% is hardly a spanking, by any definition...



BigDL said:


> One man's opinion changes everything and undoes the spanking OGL received from the Canadian electorate?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Hilarious comments on Harper's Facebook page. Wackos!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Yippee yi A, yippee yi Ooo


----------



## FeXL

Still not ready...

Parliament postponed: What Canada’s new Liberal government could – and couldn’t – tackle without oversight 



> Liberal MP Ralph Goodale says a new Liberal government, set to be sworn in next week, probably won’t recall Parliament until January.


Probably gotta stock up on some primo Toledo Window Box & pretzels. Wouldn't want to rush into things, after all...

Maybe he's just gonna wait until the Canuck Buck recovers:

Canada's new liberal prime minister: the disaster has already begun



> _ The Canadian dollar dropped nearly two percentage points after Justin Trudeau's Liberals swept to a majority in the federal election.
> 
> That's almost two cents in four days._


More:



> *Trudeau’s announced plans spell disaster, which is why the foreign exchange markets behaved as they did.*


Yep.


----------



## Vandave

As somebody who trades, the dollar fell because of oil, not Trudeau. As an example of the link:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Baby killer gets his due -

http://globalnews.ca/news/2301750/w...-chris-alexander-slams-hippy-trippy-liberals/


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Personally I'm in favour of naming the airport Stephen Harper International Terminal - aka S H I T. 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/20...ver-naming-airport-after-harper/#.Vi_SCrdJaUk


----------



## Macfury

I think oil fell because of Trudeau.



Vandave said:


> As somebody who trades, the dollar fell because of oil, not Trudeau. As an example of the link:


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Personally I'm in favour of naming the airport Stephen Harper International Terminal - aka S H I T.
> 
> To name or not to name: Duelling petitions over naming airport after Harper | National Newswatch


Or more appropriately, a landfill
Rename the East Calgary Landfill the "Stephen J. Harper Landfill"


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper's legacy of trashy politics, garbage policies and wasteful corruption makes this an excellent way to remember him. Canada dumped him as PM and now you could dump your junk in the Harper Landfill!


----------



## Macfury

You two are really embarrassing yourselves here.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hilarious comments on Harper's Facebook page. Wackos!
> View attachment 62601



The koolaid must have been very tasty indeed! (although technically it was flavor aid)


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----------



## FeXL

Vandave said:


> As somebody who trades, the dollar fell because of oil, not Trudeau.


I'm not convinced. Trudeau has already voiced his opposition to oil & he's made noises about NEP II. Those 2 factors alone could have the same effect.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> You two are really embarrassing yourselves here.


That might be your opinion but it matters diddly-squat to me...


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## CubaMark

*Well... this is interesting....*

*Patrick Brazeau gets no jail time or criminal record following guilty plea*








Sen. Patrick Brazeau has been granted an unconditional discharge after pleading guilty to assault and cocaine charges in September, which means he avoids both jail time and a criminal record.

Brazeau pleaded to reduced charges of assault and possession of cocaine after a more serious charge of sexual assault was dropped due to a lack of evidence.

In delivering the decision, Quebec Court Judge Valmont Beaulieu agreed with Brazeau's lawyer and the Crown prosecutor, both of whom jointly recommended an absolute discharge.​
(CBC)


----------



## bse5150

rgray said:


> That might be your opinion but it matters diddly-squat to me...


Or as Trudeau #1 would say: I've been called worse by better people.


----------



## rgray

bse5150 said:


> Or as Trudeau #1 would say: I've been called worse by better people.


+1..... Thank you.


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> That might be your opinion but it matters diddly-squat to me...


I didn't think it mattered to you--just wanted to mark the occasion!


----------



## Macfury

bse5150 said:


> Or as Trudeau #1 would say: I've been called worse by better people.


Yeah, but I didn't call him anything.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, Maureen McTeer agrees with you:

24 Sussex Drive should be torn down, says Maureen McTeer - Politics - CBC News


----------



## rgray




----------



## fjnmusic

This Hour has 22 Minutes fun episode from 2013. RE: Trudeau's views on Marijuana. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/10/22/22-minutes-justin-trudeau-pot-video_n_4143431.html

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## BigDL

Macfury said:


> BigDL, Maureen McTeer agrees with you:
> 
> 24 Sussex Drive should be torn down, says Maureen McTeer - Politics - CBC News


It would appear great minds think alike and fools seldom differ.


----------



## FeXL

That collective "whoosh" you just heard was the wind going out of every wishful pothead in the country...

Les MacPherson: Don’t bet on new pot law, despite what Justin says



> I will bet you a sack of weed that Justin Trudeau will not deliver before the next election on his promise to legalize marijuana.
> 
> This being Canada, we can’t just delete marijuana offences from the Criminal Code. That would be too easy. No, we also must create a huge, new apparatus and bureaucracy to regulate and restrict marijuana, as Trudeau has also promised to do. As to what form all of this will take, he has not given, I suspect, a moment’s thought.
> 
> He, therefore, will appoint some kind of commission to study the matter, to travel to Colorado and Alaska and Holland to see how they do it there, to consult with all the interested parties and then to make recommendations on how to proceed. *That will take years.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, the Dauphin is taking Lizzie May with him to COP21!

Trudeau, May to push socialist, anti-progress agenda at Paris Climate Conference



> Apparently Justin Trudeau is taking Elizabeth May with him to the Conference of the Parties (COP 21) Climate Conference in Paris in December.
> 
> *They will fit in well with thousands of fellow environmental socialists talking about climate, a topic they don’t understand.*


M'bold.

Too kind but, yep...


----------



## FeXL

From the outside in.

The Socialist Republic of Canada



> The results of the Canadian general election are now graven in stone and Justin Trudeau’s Liberal Party has been given a decisive majority. Canadians have opted for change without stopping to consider that change is by no means an unalloyed good. The “hope and change” that Obama promised the American people has led the country into an abyss of debt, racial conflict, open-border chaos, destructive initiatives like global warming legislation, alliances with genocidal enemies, alienation of political friends, and a state of international weakness that would be risible were it not so devastating. America allowed itself to be seduced by a charismatic interloper with spotty credentials, a pro-Muslim bias, hard-left sympathies, and no accomplishments worth mentioning.
> 
> *It appears that Canada has followed suit, electing an aureate nonentity whose CV would in any sane society have generated howls of laughter or stunned disbelief. “Spectacularly unqualified,” as a PJM commenter posted, Trudeau studied environmental geography at McGill University and engineering at the Université de Montréal—but failed to complete degrees in either discipline. Among his other triumphs, which apparently earned the confidence of the electorate, Trudeau was a snow board instructor, a camp counselor, a white water rafting instructor, and a substitute drama teacher. Even a farcical billet like community organizing would have been more impressive.*


But he has such dreamboat _hair_...

Further:



> Obamacare architect Jonathan Gruber famously referred to American voters as stupid; *the Canadian electorate, which has now installed Trudeau in 24 Sussex Drive, is no different, its collective IQ hovering around the numerical designation of the residential address.*


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Macfury

He couldn't complete a single degree because tuition fees were too high?


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> From the outside in.
> 
> 
> 
> The Socialist Republic of Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But he has such dreamboat _hair_...
> 
> 
> 
> Further:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> 
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!



Such unabated venom. Haters gonna hate. 


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Such unabated venom.


I like my venom unabated--especially when it's apt!


----------



## FeXL

Nope, don't hate him. I just think he is the single, most under qualified, vapid PM elect this country has _ever_ had.



fjnmusic said:


> Such unabated venom. Haters gonna hate.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Nope, don't hate him. I just think he is the single, most under qualified, vapid PM elect this country has _ever_ had.


You can't hate him. You can only blame the low information voters and lefties who loved the poor sap so much, they rocketed him into office on a cloud of half-baked promises and sweet, dopey smiles.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Reality check please.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

PMT I & PMT II back in '73.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## Macfury

So? We're not holding his father's terrible judgement and disastrous tenure as Prime Minister against him.


----------



## FeXL

Have no fear. That'll come soon enough...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Reality check please.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Have no fear. That'll come soon enough...


.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Pearls before swine, I tells ya....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper's drummer - guilty. 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/1030-nolan


----------



## fjnmusic

Haters gonna hate. And they're REALLY predictable too.


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## Macfury

Yep--can you believe Jimbo posting that link about a drummer?



fjnmusic said:


> View attachment 62737
> Haters gonna hate. And they're REALLY predictable too.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yep--can you believe Jimbo posting that link about a drummer?



The company one keeps. I wonder what the ex-PM has to say. 


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## Macfury

Statler seems concerned. What do _you _say about that Waldorf?



fjnmusic said:


> The company one keeps. I wonder what the ex-PM has to say.


----------



## FeXL

Further on From The Outside In...

‘Canada ran away’: Online jihadists celebrate Trudeau’s win as they anticipate end to airstrikes



> Online jihadists are reacting with “elation and a sense of triumph at a perceived defeat of Canada” over last week’s election results as they anticipate the Liberals’ promised end to airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, says a report released Thursday.
> 
> The Middle East Media Research Institute study said “known jihadists” and supporters of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant were rejoicing at the election of a government committed to halting Canada’s involvement in the international air coalition.


Way to go, Justin!!!


----------



## FeXL

More Lefty "Leadership"...

‘Worst deal in the province’s history’: Opposition slam Ontario’s ‘ludicrous’ Hydro One sell-off



> The Ontario Liberals are steamrolling ahead with a plan to sell off 60 per cent of Hydro One in the wake of a damning report that said the sale could cost the province up to $500 million a year in the long run.
> 
> “This is the worst deal in the province’s history,” PC Hydro One critic Todd Smith said in question period following the release of the financial accountability officer’s report.
> 
> NDP leader Andrea Horwath said it’s “ludicrous” that Premier Kathleen Wynne has said she’ll continue with the sale after the watchdog found it could net as little as $1.4 billion for infrastructure. That’s just one per cent of the $130 billion the province plans to spend on infrastructure over 10 years, which the sell-off is supposed to fund.


When you've offended even the NDP...


----------



## Macfury

There's an appropriate selling price for this asset, but old lady Wynne is just scrabbling at the cat food tins to grab anything that will keep the wolf from the doors.

I understood that she and Prime Minister Tumblr had a reassuring and productive talk about ways in which they can combine their agendas for even more goodness.



FeXL said:


> More Lefty "Leadership"...
> 
> ‘Worst deal in the province’s history’: Opposition slam Ontario’s ‘ludicrous’ Hydro One sell-off
> 
> 
> 
> When you've offended even the NDP...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I understood that she and Prime Minister Tumblr had a reassuring and productive talk about ways in which they can combine their agendas for even more goodness.


Ewww. I think I need to go take a shower...


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

Note to Justin: We gotta stop air strikes against these nice folks. Soon as possible eh?

Ex-hostage: ISIS' 'Jihadi John' made me tango with him - CNN.com


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Harper criminal going down for up to a year. Don't drop the soap Dean! 

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer....il-for-former-peterborough-mp-dean-del-mastro


----------



## rgray

.


----------



## Macfury

You forgot to read the whole article, Jimbo. Are you intellectually lazy or something?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Harper criminal going down for up to a year.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> You forgot to read the whole article, Jimbo. Are you intellectually lazy or something?


It's pretty crazy that he was even charged, let alone convicted. The crown literally did not present actual evidence for their claim, they just presented a theory. He wrote a cheque, therefor it must be for whatever we say it's for. And the dates don't line up with our story, so they must have been backdated. Evidence? Proof? What do we need that for?

After seeing the patently dishonest way that Elections Canada tried to go after my MP, I don't believe a damn word they say.


----------



## fjnmusic

Here's something you may not have considered, since the Cons weren't gettin' 'er done. The Alberta NDP and fed Libs may be the best thing for the pipelines. 
http://edmontonjournal.com/storylin...uld-turn-out-to-be-albertas-pipeline-saviours


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## Macfury

Yes, I considered that. It would show once and for all that "battling climate change" is a progressive tax grab with no scientific basis.

Alberta requires saviours, but only to protect it from Notley



fjnmusic said:


> Here's something you may not have considered, since the Cons weren't gettin' 'er done. The Alberta NDP and fed Libs may be the best thing for the pipelines.
> Graham Thomson: Governments seen as more apt to hug a tree than a pipeline could be Alberta's pipeline saviours | Edmonton Journal


----------



## fjnmusic

The Conservatives were the architects of their own defeat.
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...ves-blew-themselves-up-with-desperate-tactics


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yes, I considered that. It would show once and for all that "battling climate change" is a progressive tax grab with no scientific basis.
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta requires saviours, but only to protect it from Notley



Apparently the whole meaning of this article was lost on you. It suggests that Notley and Trudeau may be what will save this country's pipelines, since the Conservatives accomplished a big pile of nothing. 


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Apparently the whole meaning of this article was lost on you. It suggests that Notley and Trudeau may be what will save this country's pipelines, since the Conservatives accomplished a big pile of nothing.


They might do it as a tax grab on consumers--why wouldn't they?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> They might do it as a tax grab on consumers--why wouldn't they?



Did you even read the article? Your comments seem pretty superficial. 


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## Macfury

Yes, I read it--I didn't think it offered much, other than the possibility that "progressive" governments could trade off a pipeline for increased taxes on end users using the fraud of human-caused climate change.



fjnmusic said:


> Did you even read the article? Your comments seem pretty superficial.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yes, I read it--I didn't think it offered much, other than the possibility that "progressive" governments could trade off a pipeline for increased taxes on end users using the fraud of human-caused climate change.



Can you explain why Conservative governments have been unsuccessful at getting the job done in the last ten years?


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## Macfury

Yes--the CPC did not leave enough room at the troughs for "progressives" through climate change fraud. It has nothing to do with science and everything to do with sticking it to consumers through regressive taxation. The pipelines may still not happen under Prime Minster Tumblr, but a better chance now that the argument is no longer an economic one.



fjnmusic said:


> Can you explain why Conservative governments have been unsuccessful at getting the job done in the last ten years?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## Macfury

I see Corrigan ran out of ideas for this issue.


----------



## rgray




----------



## FeXL

There's so much BS, obfuscation, rationalization, fear mongering & outright lies in that article I wouldn't even know where to begin to refute it.

The whole premise (climate change) is crap & it merely goes downhill from there...



fjnmusic said:


> Here's something you may not have considered, since the Cons weren't gettin' 'er done. The Alberta NDP and fed Libs may be the best thing for the pipelines.


----------



## FeXL

Apparently it's time for a motorcycle ride to the Centre of the Universe...

Exclusive: Toronto man wearing “Infidel” patch stabbed for allegedly offending Muslims



> The 56 year-old victim, who asked not be identified due to security concerns, told CIJnews that the stabbing attack took place at the entrance to the Sports Lounge Bar at Kennedy Road and St. Clair. A devout Christian who also follows the Jewish Torah, the victim was a regular at the bar on Sundays and was not shy about speaking about his criticism of Islam. *The jacket he wore on the day of the stabbing had a patch on its front that reads “Infidel” in English* and in Arabic (كافر).


M'bold.

Interesting. I have a patch on the front of my riding vest that reads "Infidel" as well... beejacon


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Thank goodness Canada saw through the Harperites and booted their sore asses. 

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/8452426


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Exclusive: Toronto man wearing “Infidel” patch stabbed for allegedly offending Muslims....
> Interesting. I have a patch on the front of my riding vest that reads "Infidel" as well... beejacon


(a) the article identifies the victim as someone who "was not shy about speaking about his criticism of Islam" (see below)

(b) the attacker is identified as having many tattoos - interesting, given that tattoos are _generally_ verboten in Islam.

(c) the source of this story is a right-wing pro-Jewish website which one might expect to cast an anti-Muslim angle to its "reporting".

Sounds like a loudmouth racist got into a tussle outside the sports bar and pissed the wrong people off.....

"A devout Christian who also follows the Jewish Torah, the victim was a regular at the bar on Sundays and was not shy about speaking about his criticism of Islam. The jacket he wore on the day of the stabbing had a patch on its front that reads “Infidel” in English and in Arabic (كافر)."​
Were you so concerned about violence against Muslims when a pregnant woman was attacked for wearing a hijab in Montreal recently?


----------



## FeXL

So what? Is Islam above criticism?



CubaMark said:


> (a) the article identifies the victim as someone who "was not shy about speaking about his criticism of Islam" (see below)


So what? If they don't like his tattoos, they can look the other way or leave.



CubaMark said:


> (b) the attacker is identified as having many tattoos - interesting, given that tattoos are _generally_ verboten in Islam.


So what? Are you saying that it is OK to stab someone for wearing a patch that identifies him as being an unbeliever, is critical of a particular religion & sports tattoos?



CubaMark said:


> (c) the source of this story is a right-wing pro-Jewish website which one might expect to cast an anti-Muslim angle to its "reporting".


Ah, that must be that lefty journalist coming out in you. "Sounds like" is close enough to "The Truth", right?



CubaMark said:


> Sounds like a loudmouth racist got into a tussle outside the sports bar and pissed the wrong people off.....


Never even heard about it. Especially if the only place it was reported was the CBC. I simply do not, under any circumstances, go to a CBC link.



CubaMark said:


> Were you so concerned about violence against Muslims when a pregnant woman was attacked for wearing a hijab in Montreal recently?


Are you concerned about female subjugation, genital mutilation & child brides? Jes' askin'...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whoa. Racism is nasty eh.


----------



## FeXL

In the complete absence of a frame of reference & on the offside chance that this was directed at me...

Islam and/or Muslim are religions, not races. Might wanna bone up on those debating skills.

Have a nice day...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whoa. Racism is nasty eh.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> So what? Is Islam above criticism?


Sigh. No, Mr. obtuse. But it is an indication as to the possible character of the victim. A loudmouth usually gets what's coming to 'em.



FeXL said:


> So what? If they don't like his tattoos, they can look the other way or leave.


Try reading that again. The article (that *you* cited) identified _*the attacker*_ as being tattooed. I posted that this is unusual, in general, for a follower of Islam in that they do not believe in defiling the body that Allah gave them.



FeXL said:


> So what? Are you saying that it is OK to stab someone for wearing a patch that identifies him as being an unbeliever, is critical of a particular religion & sports tattoos?


Of course not. But it may help to_ explain _how the incident occurred. We social scientists look for behaviour triggers, causes, etc. These things don't happen in a vacuum.



FeXL said:


> Ah, that must be that lefty journalist coming out in you. "Sounds like" is close enough to "The Truth", right?


I'm not reporting on this story. I'm commenting on it. There's a difference. 



FeXL said:


> Never even heard about it. Especially if the only place it was reported was the CBC. I simply do not, under any circumstances, go to a CBC link.


You never heard about the attack on the pregnant woman in Montreal. Of course not, the far-right-wing websites you are known to frequent would not have their ideology challenged by being aware of the repercussions of the hatred that they spread.



FeXL said:


> Are you concerned about female subjugation, genital mutilation & child brides? Jes' askin'...


Of course. Someone very close to me was the victim of those horrific practices. What does that have to do with anything here?


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Never even heard about it. Especially if the only place it was reported was the CBC. I simply do not, under any circumstances, go to a CBC link.



Dude! You didn't hear about the pregnant woman with a niqab being attacked?? Where the hell DO you go for the news if you missed that one?



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## fjnmusic

There were actual a couple of incidents. The attack on the pregnant woman is referenced further in. 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ab-in-toronto/article26646425/?service=mobile


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## fjnmusic

And there's this story from the Montreal Gazette. Probably all some kind of conspiracy from left-wing Muslim sympathizer journalists though. http://montrealgazette.com/storyline/a-pregnant-woman-wearing-a-hijab-was-assaulted-in-anjou


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## FeXL

So, I ask a simple question & you categorize me as being obtuse?

How would you categorize someone who makes brash assumptions about victims?



CubaMark said:


> Sigh. No, Mr. obtuse. But it is an indication as to the possible character of the victim. A loudmouth usually gets what's coming to 'em.


Yes, you did. However, in the photograph at the top of the page, the victim also has tattoos. In addition, perhaps the attacker is a recent convert.



CubaMark said:


> Try reading that again. The article (that *you* cited) identified the attacker as being tattooed. I posted that this is unusual, in general, for a follower of Islam in that they do not believe in defiling the body that Allah gave them.


No, they don't. However, they frequently involve followers of Islam lashing out at anything remotely critical of their religion.



CubaMark said:


> These things don't happen in a vacuum.


You should approach the story with the same objectivity you would supposedly use as a journalist. There should be no difference.



CubaMark said:


> I'm not reporting on this story. I'm commenting on it. There's a difference.


Blah, blah, blah. I was at that website once. Hardly qualifies as "frequented".



CubaMark said:


> You never heard about the attack on the pregnant woman in Montreal. Of course not, the far-right-wing websites you are known to frequent...


Just wondering if you could actually bring yourself to be critical of anything Islam.



CubaMark said:


> Of course. Someone very close to me was the victim of those horrific practices. What does that have to do with anything here?


----------



## FeXL

Dood: It sure as hell ain't the CBC. The only time I go to the Grope & Flail is if something remotely interesting is cross-linked there. I don't recall ever going to the Montreal Gazette website.

I specifically avoid MSM unless something is cross-linked. Why? Read the Why I don't watch MSM news thread. Does that mean I miss some things? Yes. However, what I miss is more than balanced by the complete absence of leftist propaganda & lies that I find on my morning blog roll.



fjnmusic said:


> Where the hell DO you go for the news if you missed that one?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Just wondering if you could actually bring yourself to be critical of anything Islam.


Absolutely. I view Islam, Christianity, Voodoo, etc., as somewhat ridiculous. I don't believe in a magical 'supreme being' in the sky. It's all the manufactures of a human mind that has yet to outgrow the superstitions and fears first formed around the fires of early man. 

But I respect the right of people to believe what they want to believe, and not be discriminated against for doing so. The prejudices of the ridiculous Right are based in fear of the 'other'. That fear is our greatest enemy, and must be challenged whenever it manifests.


----------



## FeXL

Who stabbed whom, here?

And how is wearing a patch self-identifying oneself as a non-believer discriminatory?



CubaMark said:


> But I respect the right of people to believe what they want to believe, and not be discriminated against for doing so.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Dood: It sure as hell ain't the CBC. The only time I go to the Grope & Flail is if something remotely interesting is cross-linked there. I don't recall ever going to the Montreal Gazette website.
> 
> 
> 
> I specifically avoid MSM unless something is cross-linked. Why? Read the Why I don't watch MSM news thread. Does that mean I miss some things? Yes. However, what I miss is more than balanced by the complete absence of leftist propaganda & lies that I find on my morning blog roll.



Willful blindness, more like. 


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----------



## Macfury

Why, then, do you try to move society backwards from individual fulfillment to tribalism and collectives?



CubaMark said:


> Absolutely. I view Islam, Christianity, Voodoo, etc., as somewhat ridiculous. I don't believe in a magical 'supreme being' in the sky. It's all the manufactures of a human mind that has yet to outgrow the superstitions and fears first formed around the fires of early man.
> 
> But I respect the right of people to believe what they want to believe, and not be discriminated against for doing so. The prejudices of the ridiculous Right are based in fear of the 'other'. That fear is our greatest enemy, and must be challenged whenever it manifests.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Why, then, do you try to move society backwards from individual fulfillment to tribalism and collectives?


Human beings are social animals. We aren't all cut out to be 'lone wolves'. The collective is not a step backward, it is evolution. "Individual fulfillment" is inextricable bound up in the society within which that individual must live. A rising tide floats all boats.


----------



## Macfury

A rising tide of individuals freely exchanging work and goods and pursuing their own happiness instead of losing their individuality and subsuming their goals to support a grey collective. You have it backwards--societal evolution has always been about individual fulfillment. Collectivism reverses those amazing developments.





CubaMark said:


> Human beings are social animals. We aren't all cut out to be 'lone wolves'. The collective is not a step backward, it is evolution. "Individual fulfillment" is inextricable bound up in the society within which that individual must live. A rising tide floats all boats.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Alberta oil mag tells Ezra that he's wrong -

http://www.albertaoilmagazine.com/2015/11/better-than-ezra/#.VjfiNVmXIdI.twitter


----------



## Macfury

Max Fawcett--contributor to _the Walrus_s--would be expected to say all of those things.



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Alberta oil mag tells Ezra that he's wrong -
> 
> Better than Ezra - Alberta Oil Magazine | Canada's leading source for oil and gas newsAlberta Oil Magazine | Canada's leading source for oil and gas news


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Max Fawcett--contributor to _the Walrus_s--would be expected to say all of those things.


For someone who has expressed such disdain for anyone who goes off on an _ad hominem_, one would expect you to have a more detailed critique of Fawcett's article...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> For someone who has expressed such disdain for anyone who goes off on an _ad hominem_, one would expect you to have a more detailed critique of Fawcett's article...


Fawcett is only guessing--he has no particular inside sources, A 20% rise in taxes and a royalty review appear to be irrelevant to him, despite noting that oil companies quickly redeploy their capital resources when faced with profit challenges.


----------



## FeXL

Not even close.

Tired of MSM's willful blindness & the not so willful ignorance. Tired of the lies. Tired of being served the kool-aid. Tired of the politics. Tired of the memes & sound bites. Tired of the avoidance & bias. Tired of the complete & utter absence of research into the topic at hand. 



fjnmusic said:


> Willful blindness, more like.


----------



## bse5150

FeXL said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Tired of MSM's willful blindness & the not so willful ignorance. Tired of the lies. Tired of being served the kool-aid. Tired of the politics. Tired of the memes & sound bites. Tired of the avoidance & bias. Tired of the complete & utter absence of research into the topic at hand.


You sound like me. I'm so tired and bored of it all that I just sit and watch the wheel go round and round.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

What a complete and utter ass hole. Good riddance. Never again republican. 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/harper-conservative-government-public-service-1.3301919


----------



## FeXL

bse5150 said:


> You sound like me. I'm so tired and bored of it all that I just sit and watch the wheel go round and round.


I've found many blogs that are refreshing, honest, thorough. Far more to my taste than recycled road apples...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Not even close.
> 
> 
> 
> Tired of MSM's willful blindness & the not so willful ignorance. Tired of the lies. Tired of being served the kool-aid. Tired of the politics. Tired of the memes & sound bites. Tired of the avoidance & bias. Tired of the complete & utter absence of research into the topic at hand.



Jeez, you sound pretty tired. Also, it was Flavor Aid, not Kool Aid. You could look it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Not since I stopped paying attention to the MSM...



fjnmusic said:


> Jeez, you sound pretty tired.


----------



## FeXL

A story you won't see on the CBC...

Developing... Trudeau Funding From Foreign Sources Alleged



> _There've been reports that one of the people on the Chinese list of 100 economic fugitives... has been very supportive of Justin Trudeau's political campaign by organizing a fan club ... of young people... assisting Lberal party activists in British Columbia in massive fundraising... There are photographs showing Justin Trudeau and this individual together....​_


----------



## Macfury

PSAC is one of the reasons we have such bloated and lethargic governments. Thanking them for simply showing up at work was as much as they deserve.




skippythebushkangaroo said:


> What a complete and utter ass hole. Good riddance. Never again republican.
> 
> Stephen Harper sends 'farewell' letter to public servants - Politics - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> PSAC is one of the reasons we have such bloated and lethargic governments. Thanking them for simply showing up at work was as much as they deserve.



And some of them show up with their pants on. How's the anti-union legislation working for you?

I see the libby vote is on the increase.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

I love it!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> And some of them show up with their pants on. How's the anti-union legislation working for you?


----------



## BigDL

Around 8% of the Con's caucus want the job of interim leader, public housing is more of a draw for the Conservatives than I would have thought.

I say around 8% because does Michelle Rempel and Denis Lebel count as one or two?


----------



## Macfury

Has the NDP leader vacated or can he stay until someone is designated? Given the choice, I would much rather live in Stornoway than 24 Sussex.



BigDL said:


> Around 8% of the Con's caucus want the job of interim leader, public housing is more of a draw for the Conservatives than I would have thought.
> 
> I say around 8% because does Michelle Rempel and Denis Lebel count as one or two?


----------



## BigDL

Did the Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster skulk in and out of Rideau Hall by way of the back entrance or did he just fax in his PM resignation?



CTVNews said:


> Earlier Wednesday morning, Governor General David Johnston’s office confirmed that Stephen Harper has officially resigned as prime minister, clearing the way for his successor.


How did OGL quit?


----------



## SINC

So now it is over to Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster Trudeau.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> So now it is over to Ostentatious Grandiose Lambaster Trudeau.


Do you find him so old friend?


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting, but listening to the various swearing in ceremonies of the new cabinet ministers, they have to swear/pledge more than anyone being sworn in for the presidency of the US. As well, it sounds like their is more swearing/pledging to allegiance to the Queen than to Canada and her Constitution and Charter of Rights. I could not be sworn in to any of these roles since I could never make this promise to the Queen. 

So, in the words of Richard Nixon back in 1962, you won't have Marc Glassman to kick around anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYnYdT1CqTc

Short and sweet.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'm here at Rideau Hall. It's a sunny day for sunny ways. Never again republican!


----------



## Macfury

At the trough already, Jimbo! Good for you!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I'm here at Rideau Hall. It's a sunny day for sunny ways. Never again republican!


----------



## Macfury

It will be a loss to the nation...



Dr.G. said:


> I could not be sworn in to any of these roles since I could never make this promise to the Queen.
> 
> So, in the words of Richard Nixon back in 1962, you won't have Marc Glassman to kick around anymore.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It will be a loss to the nation...


Thanks, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## FeXL

Curious, that...

Canada under Conservatives was the freest and most tolerant nation in the world, study finds



> It comes a little late for Stephen Harper’s Conservatives, but Canada has been named both the freest and most tolerant country in the world. It’s also one of the most prosperous and best-run, and trails only Australia in education.
> 
> *Good thing we changed governments eh?*


M'bold.

Any bets as to how that'll change with the Dauphin at the reins?


----------



## BigDL

Especially now Canada has a Minister of Environment and Climate Change. Catherine McKenna (Ontario) - Environment and Climate Change.

Catherine McKenna, Ottawa Centre MP, named minister of environment, climate change - Ottawa - CBC News


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The restoration has begun.


----------



## FeXL

Should be a pretty easy job, seeing as the latter half of her portfolio doesn't even exist...



BigDL said:


> Especially now Canada has a Minister of Environment and Climate Change. Catherine McKenna (Ontario) - Environment and Climate Change.


----------



## Macfury

Was that your hand reaching out for a grant?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The restoration has begun.
> View attachment 62873


----------



## Vandave

Stephan Dion as foreign affairs Minister?


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Should be a pretty easy job, seeing as the latter half of her portfolio doesn't even exist...


True for you and the obscure blogs you visit. Really deluding yourself is no way to go through life, although to be fair, a fool's paradise is still a paradise.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada's new Minister of Defence is quite a change from recent appointees (politician; lawyer; lawyer; the 2006-07 Minister was an ex-Brigadier General). One wonders how he'll approach the mess that is military procurement, and manage the relationship with the US military / NATO and their imperial adventures...*

*Harjit Sajjan, MP for Vancouver South, named minister of defence*








​Canada's new defence minister is Harjit Sajjan, a decorated Lt.-Colonel in the Canadian Armed Forces and the newly-elected MP for Vancouver South.

Sajjan grew up in his riding, and later walked the South Vancouver streets as a detective with the Vancouver Police Department's Gang Crime Unit.

He is a combat veteran, serving in Bosnia and on three deployments to Kandahar, Afghanistan.

Sajjan has received numerous military honours, including the Meritorious Service Medal in 2013, for reducing the Taliban's influence in Kandahar Province.

"His approach, based on his knowledge of local culture and tribal dynamics, helped senior management to engage with influential Afghan tribal leaders, and led to the identification of insurgent command and control connection points," according to the citation on the Governor General's website.

Sajjan was born in India and moved to Canada with his family when he was five years old.​
(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

*Excellent. Enough of the ideological and faith-based policymaking, time to get back to reality. No doubt her climate research will draw in all kinds of noise from the ostrich crowd...*

*Canada creates science-minister post*

Kirsty Duncan, a medical geographer at the University of Toronto, will be the first to hold the job. Duncan, who contributed to the 2001 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, has also written a book about her expedition to determine the cause of the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic.

Her appointment marks a change from the government of former prime minister Stephen Harper. His administration placed oversight of science in the hands of a junior minister of state at Industry Canada.

“Harper collapsed the purview of science into the purview of industry, and we've seen a dramatic decline of pure science and public interest research as a result,” says Carol Linnitt, environmental policy analyst for the Vancouver-based non-profit environmental group DeSmog.​
(Nature)


----------



## Vandave

I like the Defence Minister. I think it's good to have somebody with practical experience in war. His experience in Afghanistan is definitely a benefit to the current realities of our World.

This guy's opinions on the World might not match Trudeau or Dion. He could quickly stick out like a sore thumb. That said, I know very little about him and his opinions. But, I'm sure he sees the value of having troops on the ground and how you defeat an insurgent enemy.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> I like the Defence Minister. I think it's good to have somebody with practical experience in war. His experience in Afghanistan is definitely a benefit to the current realities of our World.
> 
> This guy's opinions on the World might not match Trudeau or Dion. He could quickly stick out like a sore thumb. That said, I know very little about him and his opinions. But, I'm sure he sees the value of having troops on the ground and how you defeat an insurgent enemy.


I see that as one of the few bright spots in a cabinet that reveals a paucity of talent. I guess this is what happens when you've been out of power that long.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Makes the preceding govt look like the republicans they were. People are very content and impressed. 

No more ass-holes!!

🏿🏾🏽


----------



## Macfury

Enjoy it while you can. This government looks like it will quickly squander the victory they cadged from low-information voters.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Enjoy it while you can. This government looks like it will quickly squander the victory they cadged from low-information voters.


I did not know the "low-information voters" aka "the conservative base" voted other than conservative.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> I did not know the "low-information voters" aka "the conservative base" voted other than conservative.



Yup.


----------



## Macfury

You'll see.


----------



## FeXL

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

WUWT just passed a 1/4 of a *billion* views. Yes, with a "b". 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

They're the single, most visited climate blog on the planet. Add up every single warmist blog on earth & they can't come within a fraction of those numbers.

Not only that, but Real Science has over 10,000 followers on Twitter, 25 million views & 5 million viewers.

You wanna talk delusion? Go look in the mirror.

BTW, any time you think you have empirical evidence that supports your argument, c'mon over to the GHG thread. I'd be glad to put your bull$h!t to rest for you. Otherwise, slither back under your rock...



BigDL said:


> True for you and the obscure blogs you visit. Really deluding yourself is no way to go through life...


----------



## Macfury

Sadly, the whole notion of AGW is just a modern religion designed to allow "progressives" to externalize their guilt and pay penance. Even the notion that separating one's recyclable represents any benefit to the environment is just a bi-weekly ritual and sacrament to Gaia. Big with low-information voters, I hear.



FeXL said:


> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> WUWT just passed a 1/4 of a *billion* views. Yes, with a "b".
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> They're the single, most visited climate blog on the planet. Add up every single warmist blog on earth & they can't come within a fraction of those numbers.
> 
> You wanna talk delusion? Go look in the mirror.
> 
> BTW, any time you think you have empirical evidence that supports your argument, c'mon over to the GHG thread. I'd be glad to put your bull$h!t to rest for you. Otherwise, slither back under your rock...


----------



## FeXL

The only low information voters in this country are the 39% of the population who would elect a prime minister whose resume consists entirely of "substitute teacher", "ski instructor" & "university dropout".



BigDL said:


> I did not know the "low-information voters" aka "the conservative base" voted other than conservative.


----------



## Macfury

Prime Minister Tumblr hugs people, so that will play well with the low-information masses.



FeXL said:


> The only low information voters in this country are the 39% of the population who would elect a prime minister whose resume consists entirely of "substitute teacher", "ski instructor" & "university dropout".


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Up yours trogs. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The only low information voters in this country are the 39% of the population who would elect a prime minister whose resume consists entirely of "substitute teacher", "ski instructor" & "university dropout".


_The Toronto Star_ noted that PM Tumblr holds these loving gazes for three to four seconds until he is sure the cameras have caught the treacle for loving distribution through low-information media pipelines.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> WUWT just passed a 1/4 of a *billion* views. Yes, with a "b".
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> They're the single, most visited climate blog on the planet. Add up every single warmist blog on earth & they can't come within a fraction of those numbers.
> 
> Not only that, but Real Science has over 10,000 followers on Twitter, 25 million views & 5 million viewers.
> 
> You wanna talk delusion? Go look in the mirror.
> 
> BTW, any time you think you have empirical evidence that supports your argument, c'mon over to the GHG thread. I'd be glad to put your bull$h!t to rest for you. Otherwise, slither back under your rock...


Delusional paranoids of a feather stick together. How nice.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, old pal, I understand that weather sometimes affected the operation of your trains, but I don't believe it has qualified you to make scientific judgements about global climate. You seem to only count on "higher authority" for backing. I would welcome you to delve into the basic research--it's very interesting stuff!


----------



## rgray

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> up yours trogs.
> 
> 
> sent from my ipad using tapatalk


+1 :d


----------



## Macfury

I'd almost imagined that you cackling hens were gushing over the wedding scene in the _Sound of Music_ instead of university drop-out parading down the street.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Enjoy it while you can. This government looks like it will quickly squander the victory they cadged from low-information voters.



Haters gonna hate. We should post how much we all hate the Trudeau cabinet because you would then take the opposite view just to be obstinate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Haters gonna hate. We should post how much we all hate the Trudeau cabinet because you would then take the opposite view just to be obstinate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm with Macfury .................. we should enjoy it while we can. Of course, PM Trudeau will face some tough times and have to make tough decisions that everyone will not like. Still, let's enjoy the optimism and sunshine that has spread across ALL of Canada, and ignore those who see only doom and gloom ahead of us. Paix, mon ami.

Trudeau's ability to sustain new mood of optimism matters a great deal - The Globe and Mail

"There are moments, rarely more than once a generation, when an election seems to offer an opportunity to step forward into a brave new era. A look at the vastly increased voter turnout – including among younger voters barely expected to turn out at all – suggests we just went through one of them."


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> BigDL, old pal, I understand that weather sometimes affected the operation of your trains, but I don't believe it has qualified you to make scientific judgements about global climate. You seem to only count on "higher authority" for backing. I would welcome you to delve into the basic research--it's very interesting stuff!


You mean like science, you know, where scientists who have studied in a particular field dedicating their lives to their field of study? 

Or do you mean scientists who comment on information outside of their scientific field of study as paid shills? Or Investigate internet blogs making fantastic claims to have eyeballs on their site to raise Ad revenue for the bloggers?

If you believe a controversy exists then investigate away at the portals of the delusional, paranoid, conspiracy theorists, shouting as big carbon shills or fund raisers for some outlandish imaginary cause or other. 

I shall use my time in a manner productive to my interests.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> You mean like science, you know, where scientists who have studied in a particular field dedicating their lives to their field of study?
> 
> Or do you mean scientists who comment on information outside of their scientific field of study as paid shills? Or Investigate internet blogs making fantastic claims to have eyeballs on their site to raise Ad revenue for the bloggers?
> 
> If you believe a controversy exists then investigate away at the portals of the delusional, paranoid, conspiracy theorists, shouting as big carbon shills or fund raisers for some outlandish imaginary cause or other.
> 
> I shall use my time in a manner productive to my interests.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Macfury

BigDL, you are so far out of your depth, it is a bit shocking. Many of the warmists are now the paid shills, realizing that research grants come only to those who create computer models predicting warming. 

You are talking nonsense old friend, and I note you do not speak the language of science. For example--which theory of global climate do you ascribe to? Which models inform your opinion? Two very simple questions.

If it makes you happy to count entirely on others for your opinion, I do not wish to make your life less happy--if you feel a bit more courageous and adventurous some day, perhaps we can actually debate the science. 




BigDL said:


> You mean like science, you know, where scientists who have studied in a particular field dedicating their lives to their field of study?
> 
> Or do you mean scientists who comment on information outside of their scientific field of study as paid shills? Or Investigate internet blogs making fantastic claims to have eyeballs on their site to raise Ad revenue for the bloggers?
> 
> If you believe a controversy exists then investigate away at the portals of the delusional, paranoid, conspiracy theorists, shouting as big carbon shills or fund raisers for some outlandish imaginary cause or other.
> 
> I shall use my time in a manner productive to my interests.


----------



## Macfury

Seeing the cabinet and the PM, I have no optimism for the new government, Dr. G. Sunshine has spread selectively to the percentage of Canadians who voted for the Liberals. Truthfully, even people I know who voted Liberal are disgusted by the fawning spectacle they're seeing playing out before them.

I suspect people of a very simple personal nature are hearing the twittering birds and seeing rays of sunshine instead of a mawkish spectacle.




Dr.G. said:


> I'm with Macfury .................. we should enjoy it while we can. Of course, PM Trudeau will face some tough times and have to make tough decisions that everyone will not like. Still, let's enjoy the optimism and sunshine that has spread across ALL of Canada, and ignore those who see only doom and gloom ahead of us. Paix, mon ami.
> 
> Trudeau's ability to sustain new mood of optimism matters a great deal - The Globe and Mail
> 
> "There are moments, rarely more than once a generation, when an election seems to offer an opportunity to step forward into a brave new era. A look at the vastly increased voter turnout – including among younger voters barely expected to turn out at all – suggests we just went through one of them."


----------



## Macfury

You flatter yourself, fjn, if you think I take the opposite view to yours on principle. You happen to take the wrong position, almost organically, close to 100% of the time.



fjnmusic said:


> Haters gonna hate. We should post how much we all hate the Trudeau cabinet because you would then take the opposite view just to be obstinate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> BigDL, you are so far out of your depth, it is a bit shocking. Many of the warmists are now the paid shills, realizing that research grants come only to those who create computer models predicting warming.
> 
> You are talking nonsense old friend, and I note you do not speak the language of science. For example--which theory of global climate do you ascribe to? Which models inform your opinion? Two very simple questions.
> 
> If it makes you happy to count entirely on others for your opinion, I do not wish to make your life less happy--if you feel a bit more courageous and adventurous some day, perhaps we can actually debate the science.


I subscribe to "On the Balance of Probabilities."

If an individual can defend their PHD Thesis to a committee of learned individuals in their field of study and then is awarded a PHD Science Degree in said field I am satisfied. On the balance of probabilities I have more confidence such persons are more reliable and that Scientist speaks with knowledge. On the balance of probabilities some guy on the internet is not as knowledgeable.

When almost every Scientist in the field of study has reached consensus on the matter. On the balance of probabilities I am satisfied the Scientists are speaking truthfully, honestly and knowledgeably. On the balance of probabilities I am not confident listening to some guy on the internet that believes some sort of controversy even exists.

Some guy on the internet is welcome to his views and his own politics of rejecting all groups out of hand. If some guy on the internet is in favour of the rugged individualist over groups that is a choice.


----------



## FeXL

No argument. Hence 39% of Candadians voting for a hairdo...



BigDL said:


> Delusional paranoids of a feather stick together. How nice.


----------



## Macfury

I am not using "some guy on the Internet" to support my knowledge. However, you've certainly heard about the recent collapse of the peer-review process? I suspect that when you were a wee lad, that process was carried out with rigour and integrity.

I can demonstrate that there is no consensus--though I challenge you to show why you believe there is. Other than various characters bandying about a figure of 97% there has been no research demonstrating that to be true. And as scientists point out, consensus is meaningless if you happen to be wrong.

Old friend, if you feel that it is too painful to challenge your easily found beliefs, I certainly don't wish to take you out of your comfort zone. Sometimes, as we enter our twilight years, it is better to pay a meaningless penance to Gaia than to upset ourselves.



BigDL said:


> I subscribe to "On the Balance of Probabilities."
> 
> If an individual can defend their PHD Thesis to a committee of learned individuals in their field of study and then is awarded a PHD Science Degree in said field I am satisfied. On the balance of probabilities I have more confidence such persons are more reliable and that Scientist speaks with knowledge. On the balance of probabilities some guy on the internet is not as knowledgeable.
> 
> When almost every Scientist in the field of study has reached consensus on the matter. On the balance of probabilities I am satisfied the Scientists are speaking truthfully, honestly and knowledgeably. On the balance of probabilities I am not confident listening to some guy on the internet that believes some sort of controversy even exists.
> 
> Some guy on the internet is welcome to his views and his own politics of rejecting all groups out of hand. If some guy on the internet is in favour of the rugged individualist over groups that is a choice.


----------



## BigDL

Delude yourself if you will, the controversy does not exist, the first single digits of this millennium are gone, old friend, time marches on.


----------



## Vandave

I think the IPCC needs to be split apart. I think at this point in time they are hurting the credibility of climate scientists. I would rather a separate think tank that is apolitical be created to study the climate. As is, the IPCC has very little credibility to me. 

Science doesn't mesh well with political agendas. If we hit a cold stretch in the next decade or two, it will be the death of climate science as we know it now and there is no reason that should be the case.

Everything I have read from the IPCC seems to be over exaggerated. The Earth's temperature is not increasing at the rates that anybody predicted. We don't understand all the dynamics at play with our climate, as evidenced by our inability to predict it.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Seeing the cabinet and the PM, I have no optimism for the new government, Dr. G. Sunshine has spread selectively to the percentage of Canadians who voted for the Liberals. Truthfully, even people I know who voted Liberal are disgusted by the fawning spectacle they're seeing playing out before them.
> 
> I suspect people of a very simple personal nature are hearing the twittering birds and seeing rays of sunshine instead of a mawkish spectacle.


Macfury, here we disagree. Sunshine spreads over all of Canada. Some may choose to stay indoors, and some will come outside to enjoy the warmth of a new day. In the final analysis, we are all in this together and need to work to make our country "strong and free". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## MacGuiver

rgray said:


>


3 more female Cabinet Ministers than Harper. Justin be praised for taking us out of the dark ages.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Macfury, here we disagree. Sunshine spreads over all of Canada. Some may choose to stay indoors, and some will come outside to enjoy the warmth of a new day. In the final analysis, we are all in this together and need to work to make our country "strong and free". Paix, mon ami.


I don't see the country becoming stronger or freer under this administration. The people chosen to fill the cabinet positions seem rather tepid choices. Then again, the PM never completed university, so they may appear quite learned to him.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> 3 more female Cabinet Ministers than Harper. Justin be praised for taking us out of the dark ages.


A god! A god has descended among us!


----------



## Macfury

Having failed to predict temperature, ice thickness, snow cover and sea rise, the IPCC has gotten nothing correct so far. It is not a scientific body, just a group of political hacks cherry picking and massaging select data to create lucrative doomsday scenarios.



Vandave said:


> I think the IPCC needs to be split apart. I think at this point in time they are hurting the credibility of climate scientists. I would rather a separate think tank that is apolitical be created to study the climate. As is, the IPCC has very little credibility to me.
> 
> Science doesn't mesh well with political agendas. If we hit a cold stretch in the next decade or two, it will be the death of climate science as we know it now and there is no reason that should be the case.
> 
> Everything I have read from the IPCC seems to be over exaggerated. The Earth's temperature is not increasing at the rates that anybody predicted. We don't understand all the dynamics at play with our climate, as evidenced by our inability to predict it.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I don't see the country becoming stronger or freer under this administration. The people chosen to fill the cabinet positions seem rather tepid choices. Then again, the PM never completed university, so they may appear quite learned to him.


Wrong again. The PM has a degree from Mcgill.

It was the former PM who never completed his economics PhD you may be thinking of.


----------



## Rps

I love how everyone is jumping on the new cabinet for its lack of experience........just a thought here, when Harper first came to power how many experienced cabinet ministers did he have?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I love how everyone is jumping on the new cabinet for its lack of experience........just a thought here, when Harper first came to power how many experienced cabinet ministers did he have?


I am not commenting on their lack of experience--just their lack of talent.


----------



## Rps

Okay! Let's see, a Miister of Justice who actually prosecuted someone, a Minister of Defense who actually held a rifle, a Minister of Finance who actually ran a business, a Minister of Fisheries who actually had to fish, Stephen Dion, who is smarter than many people think he is, and probably a few more talented ministers if I really take the time to look. A talented Minister can only be determined by their execution of their duties......time always tells.


----------



## Macfury

I exempted the Defense Minister already. No pass for Dion. Even "smarter than I think he is" would not be a high recommendation.



Rps said:


> Okay! Let's see, a Miister of Justice who actually prosecuted someone, a Minister of Defense who actually held a rifle, a Minister of Finance who actually ran a business, a Minister of Fisheries who actually had to fish, Stephen Dion, who is smarter than many people think he is, and probably a few more talented ministers if I really take the time to look. A talented Minister can only be determined by their execution of their duties......time always tells.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

A Very talented and thoughtful cabinet. Time will tell how effective they will be. I expect them to move quickly on a number of fronts.


----------



## Rps

Well, we will see. Remember there is the cabinet and then there is The Cabinet. I think it will take sometime to see who is in the upper case.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Okay! Let's see, a Miister of Justice who actually prosecuted someone, a Minister of Defense who actually held a rifle, a Minister of Finance who actually ran a business, a Minister of Fisheries who actually had to fish, Stephen Dion, who is smarter than many people think he is, and probably a few more talented ministers if I really take the time to look. A talented Minister can only be determined by their execution of their duties......time always tells.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A Very talented and thoughtful cabinet. Time will tell how effective they will be. I expect them to move quickly on a number of fronts.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Then there is today's coverage of the back door man - Harper

http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/...ust?bftwcanada&utm_term=.ugDVNOD8q#.wakN2Yg7V


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I don't see the country becoming stronger or freer under this administration. The people chosen to fill the cabinet positions seem rather tepid choices. Then again, the PM never completed university, so they may appear quite learned to him.



How did the PM get a job teaching if he didn't complete University?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> How did the PM get a job teaching if he didn't complete University?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Teacher

After graduating from McGill in 1994 with a B.A., I found myself with a lot of time to think about my life and my future. That summer, in a quiet moment of reflection on a hillside, I realized my next step: I would become a schoolteacher. This would be my way of having a positive influence in the world.

Before I knew it I had graduated from the University of British Columbia's education program and was teaching in Vancouver, mostly in French and math.

After years of teaching on the West Coast, I decided that it was time to return home to Quebec. I loved Vancouver, had a great group of friends, loved the mountains and the ocean, but at thirty, I was starting to feel that it was time to settle down and possibly start a family. I couldn't imagine that happening anywhere other than Montreal."

https://www.liberal.ca/rt-hon-justin-trudeau/


----------



## Macfury

I used to work for a board of education where certain teachers did not require degrees--only "life experience."

My apologies, Justin--I misunderstood your resume




fjnmusic said:


> How did the PM get a job teaching if he didn't complete University?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I used to work for a board of education where certain teachers did not require degrees--only "life experience."
> 
> My apologies, Justin--I misunderstood your resume


UBC has one of the strongest education program for teachers in Canada.

This one is for you, Macfury, since we are agreeing way too often for many out there in ehMacLand. I am getting many personal messages from folks wanting to know if I have sold out to your way of thinking. I usually reply that you have come over to the sunny side of the street and are agreeing with me more. 

Paix, mon ami.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEsgLzgH_po[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

I doubt that I am coming over to your side, Dr. G.--but I see no point in perpetuating a factual error without apology.



Dr.G. said:


> UBC has one of the strongest education program for teachers in Canada.
> 
> This one is for you, Macfury, since we are agreeing way too often for many out there in ehMacLand. I am getting many personal messages from folks wanting to know if I have sold out to your way of thinking. I usually reply that you have come over to the sunny side of the street and are agreeing with me more.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEsgLzgH_po


----------



## FeXL

That's it? That's the sum total of your argument? A logically fallacious appeal to popularity & a followup logically fallacious appeal to authority?

It's no wonder you didn't know that WUWT is the most read science blog on the planet.

Let's pursue this even further.

You say that you believe that anyone who can defend a thesis in a particular area of study is worthy of belief. OK, how many of the people in the front lines of the warmist movement, the ones in the headlines, _actually have a degree in climatology_?

Hansen? Cook? Ehrlich? Shukla? Nye? The Pope? Karl? Schmidt? Steyer? Lee? Wadhams? Mandia? Turnbull?

Let me do your homework for you. None. Zero. Nada. Not a one. 

So, exactly which authorities are you listening to?

Now, onto consensus. First off, there is no such thing as consensus in science. Period. Anyone who uses that term in regards to science is not being scientific. There used to be a guy on these boards who preached "consensus" continuously. My standard response to him & the one I'm going to furnish to you is that, 500 years ago, 100% of the consensus scientists who believed in a geocentric universe were wrong. There are a myriad of other examples throughout history where "the consensus" was wrong.

Now, onto politics. The empirical evidence that AGW is a crock is not political. It is actual, measurable data, something that warmists have damn little of & what little they do have is getting scarcer every day.

Look, if you want to wander around in your own little world parroting "consensus" & "if they got a PhD", go for it. No sweat off mine.

However, just so you know that I'm not the only one who doesn't believe someone just because they have a PhD, perhaps you'll pay attention to a certain physicist:

“Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, *is it reasonable?*” —Richard Feynman

M'bold.

So, without even delving far into the science, let me ask a couple questions:

1) Pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 concentrations were around 280PPM, about 3 molecules in 10,000. We are currently at 400PPM, 4 molecules per 10,000, an increase of 1 per 10,000. Does it make sense that this minuscule increase is going to fry the planet? Change anything? Recall that we are talking about an essential compound here, not poison, the absence of which there would be no life on this planet. Is that reasonable?

2) If you answered yes to the above, then riddle me this: During the Paleozoic, atmospheric CO2 concentrations were on the order of 7000PPM. Not only did the planet not fry, it even managed to go through an ice age around 440 million years ago at atmospheric CO2 concentrations of 4000PPM. If CO2 is the nasty compound that warmists believe, how is it possible that we managed to recover from CO2 levels 10-18x higher than we currently have? Is that reasonable?

You don't need to possess a PhD to question something.



BigDL said:


> I subscribe to "On the Balance of Probabilities."
> 
> If an individual can defend their PHD Thesis to a committee of learned individuals in their field of study and then is awarded a PHD Science Degree in said field I am satisfied. On the balance of probabilities I have more confidence such persons are more reliable and that Scientist speaks with knowledge. On the balance of probabilities some guy on the internet is not as knowledgeable.
> 
> When almost every Scientist in the field of study has reached consensus on the matter. On the balance of probabilities I am satisfied the Scientists are speaking truthfully, honestly and knowledgeably. On the balance of probabilities I am not confident listening to some guy on the internet that believes some sort of controversy even exists.
> 
> Some guy on the internet is welcome to his views and his own politics of rejecting all groups out of hand. If some guy on the internet is in favour of the rugged individualist over groups that is a choice.


----------



## Vandave

Dr.G. said:


> UBC has one of the strongest education program for teachers in Canada.


My wife took the teaching program at UBC and also taught in the Vancouver School District like Trudeau. Despite those similarities and her being more centrist than I, she still doesn't like him. I haven't figured out why yet.

For her, it was Harper or the Green Party. Make of that what you will.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I doubt that I am coming over to your side, Dr. G.--but I see no point in perpetuating a factual error without apology.


Again, we are in agreement, Macfury. Welcome to the sunny side of the street. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> I used to work for a board of education where certain teachers did not require degrees--only "life experience."
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies, Justin--I misunderstood your resume



Apology accepted.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I used to work for a board of education where certain teachers did not require degrees--only "life experience."
> 
> My apologies, Justin--I misunderstood your resume





skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Apology accepted.


So you now consider yourself to be the PM Justin, do you Jimbo? Incredible.


----------



## CubaMark

*Rona Ambrose named interim Conservative leader*








Rona Ambrose is the interim leader of the Conservative Party.

Ambrose was elected by the Conservative caucus Thursday afternoon. The former health minister from Sturgeon River-Parkland, Alta. was first elected to office in 2004.

“I’m very excited with the amount of respect and trust they’ve put in me,” Ambrose told the press.

“We have an incredibly strong, confident party. We feel very optimistic about the next election and have every intention to come back into power.”

Ambrose indicated she has no intention to run for the permanent leadership position.
Ambrose is an experienced politician, who has held eight different cabinet positions. She speaks French (in addition to Spanish and Portuguese), and has said she intends on spending time in Quebec as part of cross-country travel to rally supporters and to raise money.

“We’ve got make sure we’re prepared to welcome the next leader with money in the bank and a rejuvenated volunteer base, and a caucus that is united and reinvigorated and empowered, so that when a leader takes over, things are in the best possible position to take us into the next election and continue to take on Justin Trudeau in the Commons,” Ambrose said when she announced her intentions to run for interim leader.

Ambrose said she's confident the party can enter a new era with a new tone and a new attitude, with their sights set on the next election in 2019. The job at hand is to rebuild the party, which lost significant ground in the GTA, and prepare the caucus for a formal leadership contest.​
(TorontoStar)


----------



## CubaMark

*Refreshing!*

*Half of the New Canadian Cabinet Members Chose to Skip “So Help Me God” in Their Oaths of Office*

....half of his cabinet did not swear in with a religious oath. Instead, they opted to take a Solemn Affirmation that didn’t include any mention of God:

_In their oaths of office, they each said: “I, (name), do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear/declare that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trusts reposed in me as (cabinet title).”

Individuals had the choice of affirming their oaths, which allowed them to replace the word “swear” with the word “declare” and to omit the expression “So help me God.”_​
(Patheos)

Here's the CTV News video of the swearing-in ceremony.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Refreshing!*
> 
> *Half of the New Canadian Cabinet Members Chose to Skip “So Help Me God” in Their Oaths of Office*
> 
> ....half of his cabinet did not swear in with a religious oath. Instead, they opted to take a Solemn Affirmation that didn’t include any mention of God:
> 
> _In their oaths of office, they each said: “I, (name), do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear/declare that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trusts reposed in me as (cabinet title).”
> 
> Individuals had the choice of affirming their oaths, which allowed them to replace the word “swear” with the word “declare” and to omit the expression “So help me God.”_​
> (Patheos)
> 
> Here's the CTV News video of the swearing-in ceremony.


When I took my oath of citizenship, I omitted the part where I swore allegiance to the Queen and all of her heirs.


----------



## Macfury

Why is it refreshing? Seems a rather mundane personal choice to me.



CubaMark said:


> *Refreshing!*
> 
> *Half of the New Canadian Cabinet Members Chose to Skip “So Help Me God” in Their Oaths of Office*
> 
> ....half of his cabinet did not swear in with a religious oath. Instead, they opted to take a Solemn Affirmation that didn’t include any mention of God:
> 
> _In their oaths of office, they each said: “I, (name), do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear/declare that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trusts reposed in me as (cabinet title).”
> 
> Individuals had the choice of affirming their oaths, which allowed them to replace the word “swear” with the word “declare” and to omit the expression “So help me God.”_​
> (Patheos)
> 
> Here's the CTV News video of the swearing-in ceremony.


----------



## Macfury

I've met Rona. She's a nice lady.



CubaMark said:


> *Rona Ambrose is the interim leader of the Conservative Party.
> 
> Ambrose was elected by the Conservative caucus Thursday afternoon. The former health minister from Sturgeon River-Parkland, Alta. was first elected to office in 2004.
> *


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> "Teacher
> 
> 
> 
> After graduating from McGill in 1994 with a B.A., I found myself with a lot of time to think about my life and my future. That summer, in a quiet moment of reflection on a hillside, I realized my next step: I would become a schoolteacher. This would be my way of having a positive influence in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Before I knew it I had graduated from the University of British Columbia's education program and was teaching in Vancouver, mostly in French and math.
> 
> 
> 
> After years of teaching on the West Coast, I decided that it was time to return home to Quebec. I loved Vancouver, had a great group of friends, loved the mountains and the ocean, but at thirty, I was starting to feel that it was time to settle down and possibly start a family. I couldn't imagine that happening anywhere other than Montreal."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.liberal.ca/rt-hon-justin-trudeau/



Exactement, as the French would say. Unfortunately for the naysayers, this denial of pretty easily researchable facts takes away from their credibility in other matters as well. Never let facts stand in the way of a good story! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Refreshing!*
> 
> *Half of the New Canadian Cabinet Members Chose to Skip “So Help Me God” in Their Oaths of Office*
> ....half of his cabinet did not swear in with a religious oath. Instead, they opted to take a Solemn Affirmation that didn’t include any mention of God:
> _In their oaths of office, they each said: “I, (name), do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear/declare that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trusts reposed in me as (cabinet title).”
> 
> Individuals had the choice of affirming their oaths, which allowed them to replace the word “swear” with the word “declare” and to omit the expression “So help me God.”_​(Patheos)
> 
> Here's the CTV News video of the swearing-in ceremony.


I can't help wondering if maybe they are afraid of lightning???


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## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> I can't help wondering if maybe they are afraid of lightning???


Proof positive of the absence of a "God": Republicans swear on the bible and "So help them God" all the time, and I've never yet heard of lightning striking the U.S. Capitol building....

beejacon


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## skippythebushkangaroo

SINC said:


> So you now consider yourself to be the PM Justin, do you Jimbo? Incredible.



Not at all. I noticed the factual fib first. And I accept the apology. As you might know they are rare. Then again you might not know.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Another spin the republicans use is that our PM was a drama teacher. In fact he taught French and math.

I'm thrilled they are out on their asses. I'm also happy our govt's web sites have been cleaned up. 

Off to a great start. But it's been easy compared to the dark decade of Harperdom, especially the majority years. A majority they just weren't ready for.


----------



## rgray




----------



## CubaMark

I've yet to see any report, opinion piece, tea leaf reading that indicates the Hydro One sale is a good idea.

You've heard me say it before, and I'll say it again: privatizing an essential service / utility is never a good idea. Shareholder priorities never align with socio-economic needs.


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## Macfury

I never trust government to monopolize a vital resource. Selling Hydro One is fine, but not at these fire sale prices. 



CubaMark said:


> I've yet to see any report, opinion piece, tea leaf reading that indicates the Hydro One sale is a good idea.
> 
> You've heard me say it before, and I'll say it again: privatizing an essential service / utility is never a good idea. Shareholder priorities never align with socio-economic needs.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I never trust government to monopolize a vital resource. Selling Hydro One is fine, but not at these fire sale prices.


In Alberta it's easy to tell the price increase from the sale of public utilities. For example last month we were billed $47 for zero units of natural gas. Zero use would have meant zero dollars in the pre-Ralphialite era, now we're paying $47!

We payed $110 for electricity. Even at the going max of 10¢/KWH we would have paid less than half of that in the pre-Ralph era.


----------



## rgray

CubaMark said:


> I've yet to see any report, opinion piece, tea leaf reading that indicates the Hydro One sale is a good idea.
> 
> You've heard me say it before, and I'll say it again: privatizing an essential service / utility is never a good idea. Shareholder priorities never align with socio-economic needs.


Hydro One should be run as a *true PUBLIC utility* strictly on a cost recovery basis and owned by *ALL* the people.


----------



## Rps

I think Hydro One is greatly misunderstood my many. If some may recall, the Harris government broke up the monopoly that Ontario Hydro once was. Hydro One does not have the power to increase hydro rates. But I think we all know that increases will come. In a manufacturing Province such as Ontario having th highest hydro rates, effected by government agencies, clearly shows a disconnect with the business landscape in the province. From my point of view, the transmission lines appear to have a ROI of around 10 to 11%, based on what I have read. Why would we sell that ROI when you can borrow for around 3........ Short term gain I am thinking......is always more expense. McFury, I certainly have your "spider" sense on this one.....but maybe for slightly differing reasons.


----------



## Macfury

As a "true public utility" Ontario Hydro has managed to take a great natural advantage and kill it over the years. High rates are nobody's fault but the government and its effort to run it as a "true public utility." With Wynne promising increases of another 50% to energy prices in coming years, it's hard to feel frightened about a little privatization of power lines. However, the price makes no sense at all.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## FeXL

Which factual fib are you speaking of?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I noticed the factual fib first.


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> A majority they just weren't ready for.


While I often have disagreed with the way our government is run under a minority Parliament.....and remember we elect a Parliament not a government, I also believe that we loose our right to democracy ( or what is commonly believed to be a democracy) when you have a majority government. So be careful what you wish for.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> As a "true public utility" Ontario Hydro has managed to take a great natural advantage and kill it over the years. High rates are nobody's fault but the government and its effort to run it as a "true public utility." With Wynne promising increases of another 50% to energy prices in coming years, it's hard to feel frightened about a little privatization of power lines. However, the price makes no sense at all.


Because Hydro was ineptly managed by lack ot governance in the people's interest does not mean it should be flogged off to the fat-cats of the country. If a public function can be privatised and make a profit it was obviously mismanaged before privatisation. Why is the mismanagement not addressed rather than further enriching a bunch of greed-whores???


----------



## CubaMark

Vandave said:


> I like the Defence Minister. I think it's good to have somebody with practical experience in war. His experience in Afghanistan is definitely a benefit to the current realities of our World.


There's a pretty glowing article on Sajjit from the Huffington Post:








A 2006 letter of appreciation for Sajjan's services from the commander of Canada’s Coalition Task Force in Afghanistan has surfaced, and it reads like a Bourne trilogy movie script.

Sajjan was considered “the best single Canadian intelligence asset in [war] theater” whose "hard work, personal bravery and dogged determination undoubtedly saved a multitude of Coalition lives," according to the letter, recently obtained by National Observer.

He's further credited with providing the intelligence foundation for a military operation resulting in the "kill or capture" of 1,500 Taliban fighters.

At the time, Sajjan was a reservist with the Canadian Armed Forces and was employed by the Vancouver police as a detective constable. The letter from Brig.-Gen. David Fraser to then-Vancouver police chief Jamie Graham thanked him for allowing Sajjan to deploy on the mission.

* * *​
Reached for comment on Wednesday, the new minister emphasized that the national defence portfolio is a team effort.

"When you're the government or minister," said the MP for Vancouver South, "you don't work alone. We have a tremendous civil service and military who are exceptionally capable. In national defence, we work as a team."​
Nor did Sajjan want to talk about individual heroics. Instead, he voiced concern for Canadians now serving in the military.

"It's the responsibility of government not to put soldiers into harm's way except as a last resort, when it's absolutely necessary to do so," he said. "When we do send them into harm's way we have to ensure that we've done everything in our power to find other methods to reach our objectives."​


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## CubaMark

So iPolitics published an article claiming that Trudeau's appointment of women to Cabinet wasn't all it's cracked up to be, saying some of them are "Ministers of State", not full Ministers. It pretty quickly was debunked (short version: there's an administrative process that under the current rules had to be followed). Sad that the Right-wingers are desperately searching for anything to criticize a three-day-old government.


----------



## Macfury

You're frothing again, CM--iPolitics was right about the designation, but it's being changed. Do you hate anything right of centre so much that you feel the need to froth?


----------



## FeXL

Due process is due process, whether the gov't is 3 hours, 3 weeks or 3 years old.



CubaMark said:


> Sad that the Right-wingers are desperately searching for anything to criticize a three-day-old government.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Thank you for getting rid of this republican failure. One of many to come

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ment-websites/article27155289/?service=mobile


----------



## fjnmusic

The new Minister of Science is a scientist. The new Minister of Defence has experience as a soldier. And so on. It is good to see our Cabinet ministers actually have experience with their respective portfolios for a change, as opposed to the musical chair cabinet shuffle we usually see. Chalk one up for the dauphin. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Why do you think they will not be shuffled? Did somebody let you in on a secret?



fjnmusic said:


> The new Minister of Science is a scientist. The new Minister of Defence has experience as a soldier. And so on. It is good to see our Cabinet ministers actually have experience with their respective portfolios for a change, as opposed to the musical chair cabinet shuffle we usually see. Chalk one up for the dauphin.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Dr.G.

rgray said:


>





rgray said:


>


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Why do you think they will not be shuffled? Did somebody let you in on a secret?



Well, for one, there is no actual requirement that cabinet members be shuffled. For two, since great pains were taken to match the cabinet member's actual expertise with their actual portfolio, I imagine they won't be shuffled for a long time (unless somebody turns out to be in way over their head). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

So, Justin pulls our CF-18's & Obama cancels Keystone XL. Related?

Obama "slaps back at Trudeau," rejects Keystone Pipeline



> Today Barack Obama rejected the Keystone XL pipeline, that would have imported about 800,000 barrels of Canadian oil instead of OPEC oil, mainly from Venezuela.
> 
> To say that global warming is the reason he cancelled this pipeline is false; the U.S. State department has meticulously reviewed the pipeline and say there will be no measurable environmental impact.
> 
> But Obama and the Democrats raise hundreds of millions of dollars from global warming donors like Tom Steyer of San Francisco, who pledged $100 million if Obama blocked Keystone.
> 
> Obama had this Keystone XL pipeline decision on his desk for six years, but he killed it less than three weeks after Justin Trudeau was elected prime minister.
> 
> Let me tell you why I don't think this is a coincidence.


Why I agree:

America has built the equivalent of 10 Keystone pipelines since 2010 — and nobody said anything



> Between 2009 and 2013, more than 8,000 miles of oil transmission pipelines have been built in the past five years in the U.S., AOPL spokesperson John Stoody said, compared to the 875 miles TransCanada wants to lay in the states of Montana, South Dakota and Nebraska for its 830,000-bpd project. By last year, the U.S. had built 12,000 miles of pipe since 2010.


Criticisms:

Obama rejects Keystone XL



> After years of deliberate delays President Obama rejected the Keystone XL pipeline today. This is a victory for radical environmentalists and those who wish America ill.
> 
> It is a punch in the face to everyone else. Keystone XL is a clean, safe way to transport Canadian oil to American refineries and markets.
> It would bring jobs along with abundant, affordable energy. Stopping the pipeline has no meaningful benefits for the environment and will create no meaningful change to global temperature.


When you've lost even the unions:

Union: Obama threw workers 'under the bus' in Keystone decision



> The main union for construction workers is accusing President Obama of throwing them “under the bus” by rejecting the Keystone XL oil pipeline.
> 
> The Laborers’ International Union of North America (LIUNA) is one of the few labor unions that broke with the majority of Democrats and supported the project, which Obama rejected Friday after a seven-year review.
> 
> “We are dismayed and disgusted that the President has once again thrown the members of LIUNA, and other hard-working, blue-collar workers under the bus of his vaunted ‘legacy,’ while doing little or nothing to make a real difference in global climate change,” Terry O’Sullivan, the union’s general president, said in a statement. *“His actions are shameful.”*


M'bold.

No argument, albeit for probably other reasons.

And, (I apologize for not being able to find the link I read yesterday) the Alberta NDP are ready to capitalize on the movement of oil via rail by raising the rail tax rate from 1.5% to 4.5%.

Obama's decision to scrap KXL accomplishes a handful of things:
1) It slaps the Dauphin in his face without directly admitting it;
2) It succors the environmentalists;
3) It cements his position for the upcoming COP21 meetings.

PS-I also believe that Obama's decision is at least partly related to Justin's opposition to the F-35's.

Actions have consequences...


----------



## Macfury

Government can no longer effectively manage almost anything. The root problem is that Wynne has spent the cupboards bare and is now selling anything to make up the difference. 
Why not address profligate Liberal overspending first? Oh snap! Ontario voters handed Wynne a majority! Next?



rgray said:


> Because Hydro was ineptly managed by lack ot governance in the people's interest does not mean it should be flogged off to the fat-cats of the country. If a public function can be privatised and make a profit it was obviously mismanaged before privatisation. Why is the mismanagement not addressed rather than further enriching a bunch of greed-whores???


----------



## Macfury

So a victory for Justin based on a personal guess that this cabinet will not be shuffled. Thanks for your honesty.




fjnmusic said:


> Well, for one, there is no actual requirement that cabinet members be shuffled. For two, since great pains were taken to match the cabinet member's actual expertise with their actual portfolio, I imagine they won't be shuffled for a long time (unless somebody turns out to be in way over their head).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Horse feather & bull pucky.

Great pains were taken to ensure that the best visible minority or politically correct gender was carefully inserted into cabinet, whether their knowledge & experience warranted it or not...



fjnmusic said:


> ...great pains were taken to match the cabinet member's actual expertise with their actual portfolio...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Remember, it's 2015!

Republicans have a hard time with that.


----------



## FeXL

Wynneing!!!

Wynne’s personal approval rating hits new low amid teacher troubles and Hydro One sale



> Amid the unrest in Ontario schools and the controversial sell-off of Hydro One, Premier Kathleen Wynne’s personal approval rating has fallen to new lows, according to an exclusive new poll.
> 
> *Just 21 per cent of respondents approve of Wynne’s job performance, according to a Forum Research survey of 1,158 Ontarians from November 2 to 4. That’s exactly the same former Premier Dalton McGuinty’s approval rating in the last Forum poll before he resigned amid the stench of the gas plant scandal.* And her “net approval” — the number of people who think she’s doing a good job less those who outright disapprove — is “truly abysmal” at negative 47.


M'bold.

So, in the face of those numbers plus the teacher's union scandal, think she'll have the grace to resign? Me, neither. She'll just double-down...


----------



## FeXL

Exactement!

It's precisely that sort of thin, rationalistic, superfluous reasoning that I would expect from someone with a resume that the Hairdo possesses. Thankfully, I've not been disappointed...



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Remember, it's 2015!


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> So, Justin pulls our CF-18's & Obama cancels Keystone XL. Related?



Nope. Keystone has been dead in the water for a long time. All the signs were there. You just weren't paying attention. 

Also, if it was such a great idea, why didn't Obama approve in the past six years it's been sitting on his desk, while Harper was PM? No favor done there either. What Canada needs is to shed its reputation of "dirty oil." And that's going to require more than lip service. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> So a victory for Justin based on a personal guess that this cabinet will not be shuffled. Thanks for your honesty.



Common sense is about a reliable a predictor as anything else. We don't always have to defer to "experts."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Horse feather & bull pucky.
> 
> 
> 
> Great pains were taken to ensure that the best visible minority or politically correct gender was carefully inserted into cabinet, whether their knowledge & experience warranted it or not...



Horse puckey and bull feathers right back at ya. How much actual military experience did Minister of Defence, Peter McKay, actually have for example? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Exactement!
> 
> 
> 
> It's precisely that sort of thin, rationalistic, superfluous reasoning that I would expect from someone with a resume that the Hairdo possesses. Thankfully, I've not been disappointed...



You should rejoice. The Cabinet could have been 75% women. You know, that lesser species that you don't seem to have a lot of respect for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Relying on your own "common sense" to declare the cabinet is permanent is very weak sauce--and no evidence of some sort of Trudeau victory.



fjnmusic said:


> Common sense is about a reliable a predictor as anything else. We don't always have to defer to "experts."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> So, Justin pulls our CF-18's & Obama cancels Keystone XL. Related?


I'm guessing that the worst president of the modern era cares about neither the plane or the country's energy independence. There are NBA draft picks and golf games demanding immediate attention!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

He will need protection in Ottawa -

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=11498656


----------



## FeXL

If it was such a crappy idea, why didn't he kill it 6 years ago? 



fjnmusic said:


> Also, if it was such a great idea, why didn't Obama approve in the past six years it's been sitting on his desk, while Harper was PM?


What reputation? Anybody who knows anything about the subject knows that Venezuelan crude is far dirtier than Alberta oilsands crude. This isn't rocket surgery. It's wilful ignorance and/or outright lies. 



fjnmusic said:


> What Canada needs is to shed its reputation of "dirty oil." And that's going to require more than lip service.


----------



## FeXL

Couldn't say. I have no idea. However, at least he wasn't chosen merely because he had a vagina. 



fjnmusic said:


> How much actual military experience did Minister of Defence, Peter McKay, actually have for example?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Relying on your own "common sense" to declare the cabinet is permanent is very weak sauce--and no evidence of some sort of Trudeau victory.



I never said it was permanent; I said the cabinet does not HAVE to be shuffled. It's the choice of the Prime Minister. My kudos goes to selecting people who actually have some experience in the department to which they've been assigned. If they do a good job, there won't be a lot of incentive to shuffle them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Why would it need to be shuffled two days later? You're not making sense.



fjnmusic said:


> I never said it was permanent; I said the cabinet does not HAVE to be shuffled. It's the choice of the Prime Minister. My kudos how to selecting people who actually have some experience in the department to which they've been assigned. If they do a good job, there won't be a lot of incentive to shuffle them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Couldn't say. I have no idea. However, at least he wasn't chosen merely because he had a vagina.



Man, you're sounding more misogynistic by the minute. Not very persuasive...unless you're trying to persuade other misogynists. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Why would it need to be shuffled two days later? You're not making sense.



??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

It matters not to me what percentage of the cabinet is female, whether 1% or 100%. What matters to me is whether the best qualified person got the job. Arbitrarily selecting 50% one way or the other tells me there's a solid chance that at least some of the cabinet isn't the best person for the job, whether male or female. 



fjnmusic said:


> The Cabinet could have been 75% women.


First off, f**k you. At no point have I said anything about a lack of respect for women. I simply expect a position to be filled by the best person for the job, not via some twisted genitalia lottery or handicap competition. 

Secondly, the only lesser species I know of is the 39.5% of the Canadian population who voted for a hairdo with no resume. 



fjnmusic said:


> You know, that lesser species that you don't seem to have a lot of respect for.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Vivre les *******!


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> So, Justin pulls our CF-18's & Obama cancels Keystone XL. Related?
> ...


Mulcair got his way though didn't he.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> First off, f**k you.


Do you talk to your mother with that mouth?

Serious lack of decorum in here.


----------



## CubaMark

*Scientists, ministers get green light to speak under Trudeau*

You're about to start hearing a lot more from elected officials and government scientists.

For nearly a decade, the Prime Minister's Office has exercised tight control over the release of information, but reporters are hopeful they can now do a better job of telling Canadians what's happening in government. 

Since Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's swearing-in on Wednesday, CBC Nova Scotia journalists have made several requests to interview new cabinet ministers. 

We wanted to know whether Veterans Affairs Minister Kent Hehr would reopen veterans offices in Sydney. When Information Morning producer Don Munro put out the call, he said he heard back within the hour and that an interview is in the works.

Another producer requested an interview with Navdeep Bains, the new minister of innovation, science and economic development, which is responsible for the regional development agencies including the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. She also heard back within the hour. 

* * *​
After almost a decade of decreasing access to government ministers and those who work for their departments, it's a remarkable thing for journalists to contemplate once again getting comments from people who make important decisions.

I covered the national health beat for almost 14 years. In the last six or eight years of that assignment, I was never able to interview the federal minister of health. The only time the minister or a government health spokesperson appeared in my stories was following a staged media or public event with prepared statements.

Requests for comments or interviews were invariably rebuffed, and often not until days or sometimes weeks after my deadline had passed.

This is not just whining from the media. It's difficult to tell you — our audiences — how your tax dollars are being spent, or report on the policies or priorities of your elected representatives, if they won't talk to you. The news media stand in for citizens with the privilege and responsibility of asking questions and demanding accountability.​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

I agree that access to government personnel through interviews is essential. However, that doesn't mean that the people involved need freedom to speak off the cuff to anyone about anything either. FWIW, I have had to contact members of the National Research Council for years, and they were just as reticent under Chretien as Harper.





CubaMark said:


> *Scientists, ministers get green light to speak under Trudeau*
> 
> You're about to start hearing a lot more from elected officials and government scientists.
> 
> For nearly a decade, the Prime Minister's Office has exercised tight control over the release of information, but reporters are hopeful they can now do a better job of telling Canadians what's happening in government.
> 
> Since Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's swearing-in on Wednesday, CBC Nova Scotia journalists have made several requests to interview new cabinet ministers.
> 
> We wanted to know whether Veterans Affairs Minister Kent Hehr would reopen veterans offices in Sydney. When Information Morning producer Don Munro put out the call, he said he heard back within the hour and that an interview is in the works.
> 
> Another producer requested an interview with Navdeep Bains, the new minister of innovation, science and economic development, which is responsible for the regional development agencies including the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. She also heard back within the hour.
> 
> * * *​
> After almost a decade of decreasing access to government ministers and those who work for their departments, it's a remarkable thing for journalists to contemplate once again getting comments from people who make important decisions.
> 
> I covered the national health beat for almost 14 years. In the last six or eight years of that assignment, I was never able to interview the federal minister of health. The only time the minister or a government health spokesperson appeared in my stories was following a staged media or public event with prepared statements.
> 
> Requests for comments or interviews were invariably rebuffed, and often not until days or sometimes weeks after my deadline had passed.
> 
> This is not just whining from the media. It's difficult to tell you — our audiences — how your tax dollars are being spent, or report on the policies or priorities of your elected representatives, if they won't talk to you. The news media stand in for citizens with the privilege and responsibility of asking questions and demanding accountability.​
> (CBC)


----------



## Macfury

You said the cabinet did not need reshuffling. It's only been a few days.



fjnmusic said:


> ??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Do you talk to your mother with that mouth?
> 
> 
> 
> Serious lack of decorum in here.



That's what happens when the mods leave town and we are forced to live in a savage world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> *Scientists, ministers get green light to speak under Trudeau*
> 
> 
> 
> You're about to start hearing a lot more from elected officials and government scientists.
> 
> 
> 
> For nearly a decade, the Prime Minister's Office has exercised tight control over the release of information, but reporters are hopeful they can now do a better job of telling Canadians what's happening in government.
> 
> 
> 
> Since Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's swearing-in on Wednesday, CBC Nova Scotia journalists have made several requests to interview new cabinet ministers.
> 
> 
> 
> We wanted to know whether Veterans Affairs Minister Kent Hehr would reopen veterans offices in Sydney. When Information Morning producer Don Munro put out the call, he said he heard back within the hour and that an interview is in the works.
> 
> 
> 
> Another producer requested an interview with Navdeep Bains, the new minister of innovation, science and economic development, which is responsible for the regional development agencies including the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. She also heard back within the hour.
> 
> 
> 
> * * *​
> 
> 
> After almost a decade of decreasing access to government ministers and those who work for their departments, it's a remarkable thing for journalists to contemplate once again getting comments from people who make important decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> I covered the national health beat for almost 14 years. In the last six or eight years of that assignment, I was never able to interview the federal minister of health. The only time the minister or a government health spokesperson appeared in my stories was following a staged media or public event with prepared statements.
> 
> 
> 
> Requests for comments or interviews were invariably rebuffed, and often not until days or sometimes weeks after my deadline had passed.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not just whining from the media. It's difficult to tell you — our audiences — how your tax dollars are being spent, or report on the policies or priorities of your elected representatives, if they won't talk to you. The news media stand in for citizens with the privilege and responsibility of asking questions and demanding accountability.​
> 
> 
> (CBC)



I'll bet that there were citizens living under Josef Stalin who also thought he was doing a bang up job keeping their country safe and standing up for traditional values. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You said the cabinet did not need reshuffling. It's only been a few days.



What I was attempting to say is that cabinets do not HAVE to be shuffled at all. Ever. That is the prerogative of the leader. However, just to keep it interesting, they may choose to shuffle assignments, just like it's a good idea to bring in a new government every so often to get a fresh perspective. 44 years, for example, would probably be WAY too long for anyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I'm sure nobody chooses a cabinet with the intention that they will be shuffling it.


----------



## FeXL

It's perfectly OK to falsely call someone a misogynist but, as soon as they are responded to in kind, it becomes an issue?

Agreed. Serious lack of decorum.



CubaMark said:


> Do you talk to your mother with that mouth?
> 
> Serious lack of decorum in here.


----------



## FeXL

Yes! And damn proud of it, thankyouverymuch.

Make ya nervous?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Vivre les *******!


----------



## FeXL

???



BigDL said:


> Mulcair got his way though didn't he.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I'm sure nobody chooses a cabinet with the intention that they will be shuffling it.



Au contraire, mon ami. Cabinet shuffles have become as much mainstays of the Canadian way of life as geese flying south in the winter. They are simply not REQUIRED. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Yes! And damn proud of it, thankyouverymuch.
> 
> 
> 
> Make ya nervous?



Not when you have no power anymore. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Any fool knows they are not required. Is this the point you are trying to make?



fjnmusic said:


> Au contraire, mon ami. Cabinet shuffles have become as much mainstays of the Canadian way of life as geese flying south in the winter. They are simply not REQUIRED.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

rgray said:


>


Also needs to toss Bill C-51 (Gestapo enabling bill), The FATCA-IGA and The Internet Anti-Privacy Bill.

As to Climate Change, all the Hairpiece has to do if he wants to balance the budget, is relegate that monumental load of crap to the wastewater treatment center.


----------



## FeXL

???



fjnmusic said:


> Not when you have no power anymore.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> ???


Logic is not his strong suit.

Could be the cry of the proverbial "progressive" little man, who subsumes identity and power into political idolatry.


----------



## Macfury

PM Tumblr is looking for optics, not subtsance.



eMacMan said:


> Also needs to toss Bill C-51 (Gestapo enabling bill), The FATCA-IGA and The Internet Anti-Privacy Bill.
> 
> As to Climate Change, all the Hairpiece has to do if he wants to balance the budget, is relegate that monumental load of crap to the wastewater treatment center.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, the only shuffle that matters is in two years. That is usually the career ending shuffle. As for the current cabinet's suitability only time will tell. One of the flaws in our system, I think, is that the cabinet has to come from the governing party's elected members. As Mr. Trudeau has had the time to see the qualities of his ministers I think he is in a better position to judge their qualities than you or I, regardless of gender, creed, race, or whether they are left or right handed. The only sign of competence is time.....and that will tell all don't you think.


----------



## fjnmusic

[QUlOTE=Macfury;2082841]Any fool knows they are not required. Is this the point you are trying to make?[/QUOTE]


I believe I have made my point several times now. I am not sure what it is that you don't understand. Sometimes the answer is much simpler than you make it out to be. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

You originally said that Trudeau had a "win" because he would not have to shuffle his cabinet. 

You now seem fixated on the rather mundane fact that "governments are not required by law to shuffle their cabinets." 





fjnmusic said:


> [QUlOTE=Macfury;2082841]Any fool knows they are not required. Is this the point you are trying to make?



I believe I have made my point several times now. I am not sure what it is that you don't understand. Sometimes the answer is much simpler than you make it out to be. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> ???



You were proclaiming how proud you are of being a ******* to another poster and asking if it made them nervous? 

I responded that there was nothing to be nervous about since the ******** no longer had any power after being voted out of office. I would add, however, that many ******** have since become very vocal (and might I add whiny)!since losing their symbol of power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Who is the "*******" symbol of power?



fjnmusic said:


> You were proclaiming how proud you are of being a ******* to another poster and asking if it made them nervous?
> 
> I responded that there was nothing to be nervous about since the ******** no longer had any power after being voted out of office. I would add, however, that many ******** have since become very vocal (and might I add whiny)!since losing their symbol of power.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Who is the "*******" symbol of power?



Not who; what. The Conservatives are done federally in Canada and provincially in Alberta. I would presume that was what the other gentleman meant by the term "*******", but who the hell really knows. Arguing semantics can get tedious very quickly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Who is the "*******" symbol of power?





fjnmusic said:


> Not who; what. The Conservatives are done federally in Canada and provincially in Alberta. I would presume that was what the other gentleman meant by the term "*******", but who the hell really knows. Arguing semantics can get tedious very quickly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


May perhaps not everyone is proud of the *******, as other seem very proud, to wear their ******* on their sleeve. :yawn:


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> May perhaps not everyone is proud of the *******, as other seem very proud, to wear their ******* on their sleeve. :yawn:



Ironic, that one would wear their neck color on their sleeve, and that that colour would be a symbol of the Liberal party. Vive le *******! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

First off, my response had zero to do with politics. As, I suspect, did the OP.

Second, what's the thrust here? Conservatives=********? Apparently you've never met a real ******* 'cause there wasn't a single MP/MLA who came close... 



fjnmusic said:


> I responded that there was nothing to be nervous about since the ******** no longer had any power after being voted out of office.


----------



## FeXL

39.5% of voting age Canadians must be proud...

Collect them all: Download a set of Trudeau cabinet trading cards



> You asked, we delivered. Since Global News posted a set of trading cards introducing the new members of cabinet on Wednesday, we’ve received many notes from readers asking how to get their hands on a pack.
> 
> The answer is: right here.


I can think of several uses I'm going to use the faces for...


----------



## FeXL

Another view from the outside in...

Le Dauphin...Justin Trudeau: Exclusive Article by Las (Canada)



> And Trudeau comes with lots of issues. Issues like radical liberalism in Canada. How is radical cultural liberalism expressed in the Liberal Party of Canada. What is the media's role in pushing radical cultural liberalism and pressuring the Liberal Party to influence policy? How will this affect Trudeau and to what extent will he be a witting or unwitting tool for radical social liberals? How much will Trudeau be drawn into the traditional corruption that under girds the Liberal Party of Canada? Trudeau has shown that he is not above taking money from Charities and even school boards for "speaking fees" when he was a sitting member of Parliament. Most MPs speak for free and no MP takes from charities or school boards. People usually give to charities. *If Trudeau's ethics are already on shaky ground, what does the future hold?*


M'bold.

Nails it...


----------



## Macfury

Stopped at the Joker.



FeXL said:


> 39.5% of voting age Canadians must be proud...
> 
> Collect them all: Download a set of Trudeau cabinet trading cards
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of several uses I'm going to use the faces for...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo




----------



## rgray




----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> View attachment 62953


Dang lack of like button.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Dang lack of like button.



Or the Thanks! Button we had here for about a week. +1 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Yep--some Canadians.



rgray said:


>


----------



## Macfury

Try to express your feelings...



fjnmusic said:


> Or the Thanks! Button we had here for about a week. +1
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

MF said:


> Try to express your feelings...


I Like! The satirical comment  The like button would be more convenient and fit my needs.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Try to express your feelings...



Thanks!  +1 That's a great suggestion!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

The Nanny State fails, again.

Bike helmets 'do not prevent head injuries' new medical study reveals



> Bike helmets have no effect on the number of head injuries caused to cyclists, a new study has claimed.
> 
> Canadian researchers from the University of Toronto and University of British Columbia made the assertion after examining hospital rates across several districts over a five year period.
> 
> When they compared areas that require cyclists to wear helmets by law against those that don't they said there was no link to show fewer injuries as a result.
> 
> According to the study, published in the British Medical Journal, "Helmet legislation was not associated with hospitalisation rates for brain, head, scalp, skull, face or neck injuries".


The paper, in the British Medical Journal (open access): Helmet legislation and admissions to hospital for cycling related head injuries in Canadian provinces and territories: interrupted time series analysis

Related:

Helmet laws: British Columbia

Minimal impact of helmet laws on head injuries


----------



## FeXL

Another pipeline leak.

Canadian Pacific train derails in Wisconsin, spills oil; 2nd consecutive day with derailment

Oh, wait...



> A Canadian Pacific Railway train derailed Sunday, spilling less than 1,000 gallons of crude oil and prompting evacuations in Wisconsin, the second day in a row a freight train derailed in the state.
> 
> Thirteen cars of an eastbound CP train went off the tracks around 2 p.m. in Watertown, in the southeastern part of the state, the railroad said. One tank car was punctured and leaked oil.


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

That's pretty shameful to create a cartoon that supposedly speaks for all vets. Many vets voted Conservative.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> That's pretty shameful to create a cartoon that supposedly speaks for all vets. Many vets voted Conservative.


...and many more did not.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

BigDL said:


> ...and many more did not.



That's for sure.


----------



## fjnmusic

Something I put together for Remembrance Day. Instrumental music by Bruce Cockburn. Lest We Forget.
http://youtu.be/IXoHEZ7AXA0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> That's pretty shameful to create a cartoon that supposedly speaks for all vets. Many vets voted Conservative.


I firmly believe that the Harper habit of tossing millions of Canadians under various buses contributed very heavily to his loss.

Great post from an accidental American over at Brock covers a lot of ground. It certainly sums up the challenge the Dauphin faces in backing up his "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian" statement.
The Isaac Brock Society | Proud of My Tinfoil Hat


> ...
> Of course, our recently elected Liberal government is obviously different. Justin Trudeau transcends politics – if we had only had him as Prime Minister when the US demanded an IGA enacting FATCA, things would have been so different! He would have put Obama in his place. It was that evil Harper who caused all of our problems! (Anyone who believes any of this paragraph is more in need of a tinfoil hat than I am). I would point out that it is progressive policies and politicians who are predominantly responsible for this affliction.
> 
> As someone who has for the most part been a Harper supporter, I was betrayed by him (and relegated to second class citizenship as a result). I have stated in the past on this site that I have no doubt that the Liberals or NDP would have done the same – it seems every other country in the world did. But it was not the Liberals or NDP who had the misfortune to be in power at the time – it was the Harper government. I have made many negative comments about Harper as a result, and voted for the Liberal candidate (Bill Casey) in my riding.
> 
> I will be watching with great interest what transpires from here. If the Trudeau government does not get rid of the enabling IGA, will he be subjected to the same venom that Harper (deservedly) was? Will this be an issue he even cares about? Or will he just pay it lip service and say, “I tried, but it is Harper’s fault.” I am concerned that such a charade would be enough to appease many on this site. Can we get some kind of commitment from those of you on the left that, if Trudeau does not get rid of the IGA, he will be subjected to the same venom that Harper was? One of the first things he plans to do is to cozy up to Obama – that does not bode well for us.
> ...


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> ...and many more did not.


Yes. We don't know how many. So the cartoon makes a very strange presumption of victory.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Yes. We don't know how many. So the cartoon makes a very strange presumption of victory.


...save and except there was, by various veteran's organization, that active campaign to have citizens and especially veterans to vote ABC.

Or did that slip your mind?


----------



## Macfury

Yes, some did. However, it was not a veterans' victory--especially for veterans who cherish freedom.





BigDL said:


> ...save and except there was, by various veteran's organization, that active campaign to have citizens and especially veterans to vote ABC.
> 
> Or did that slip your mind?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Yes, some did. However, it was not a veterans' victory--especially for veterans who cherish freedom.


Too early to say. The Harper assault on freedom included: the Internet anti-privacy bill, The FATCA-IGA, the Second Class Citizenship Bill (C-24), the Gestapo enablization Bill (C-51) and the TPP. 

If the Dauphin repeals all of these, then it will indeed be a victory for those who cherish freedom.

If as I suspect, the younger Trudeau allows most of these assaults on Canadian freedom to stand then we have simply traded one tyrant for another. So far his only commitment is to repeal Bill C-24.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Too early to say. The Harper assault on freedom included: the Internet anti-privacy bill, The FATCA-IGA, the Second Class Citizenship Bill (C-24), the Gestapo enablization Bill (C-51) and the TPP.
> 
> If the Dauphin repeals all of these, then it will indeed be a victory for those who cherish freedom.
> 
> If as I suspect, the younger Trudeau allows most of these assaults on Canadian freedom to stand then we have simply traded one tyrant for another. So far his only commitment is to repeal Bill C-24.



Give him time. He's only been PM for a little more than a week. 

Personally, I was impressed to see wheelchair guy, an actual veteran, bringing the wreath as the Minister of Veterans' Affairs. I can't imagine there's someone more suited to the department of Veterans' Affairs than an actual veteran.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

.


----------



## Macfury

Nice work.



fjnmusic said:


> Something I put together for Remembrance Day. Instrumental music by Bruce Cockburn. Lest We Forget.
> http://youtu.be/IXoHEZ7AXA0
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Nice work.



Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Report I just read in Le Soliel is stating that former Harper lackie Denis Lebel is joining the separatist CAQ! I guess he's a separatist. 

Imagine a closet seppie was right next to Harper all those years. Shame. 

http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/ac...-cabinet-de-denis-lebel-se-joint-a-la-caq.php


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Liberals close Nova Scotia plant for dumping carrot juice, but ignore Quebec's raw sewage



> So as we’ve told you before, 100 Quebec cities and towns dump their sewage, untreated, right into streams and rivers.
> 
> It’s so gross, it’s making international news.
> 
> Everyone from Vladimir Putin’s state-run news agency, Russia Today, to Erin Brockovich (the Kardashian of environmentalists) is shaming us.
> 
> But here’s my news today:
> 
> A carrot plant in Hillaton, Nova Scotia, has been processing carrots and dumping the excess juice into the ocean, all with a provincial permit.
> 
> But the new Liberal minister of the environment has ordered the factory to be shut down.
> 
> And with it, 50 jobs.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Kelly McParland: Liberals start their new life another day older and deeper in debt



> The federal Liberals are only one week old as a government and are already being forced to face up to the realities of power. The pleasant portrait they painted on the campaign trail, of limited, short-term deficits averaging $10 billion a year for three years, is already in serious doubt. A report issued Tuesday by the Parliamentary Budget Office indicates that, before the Liberals could borrow a single extra cent, the anticipated deficit was likely to be $4.3 billion a year worse than expected over the next four years. It’s based on new revenue estimates that project slower growth for oil prices. The PBO expects the economy to produce $32 billion less income than predicted next year and $43 billion less in 2017.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s new science minister Kirsty Duncan was advocate of controversial and largely disproven MS treatment



> When Justin Trudeau created a new science portfolio in cabinet, and appointed a former academic as the minister, observers hailed the move as a sign of renewed respect for empirical study.
> 
> But barely a week after the swearing-in, some critics are questioning the prime minister’s choice for the post, an MP whose history with scientists is turbulent.
> 
> A geographer by training, Kirsty Duncan contributed to the UN climate-change panel that won a Nobel peace prize. *More controversially, she has also vigorously promoted an unproven medical treatment*, clashed publicly with some of the world’s top virus experts, and repeatedly warned of a “darker side” to science replete with power politics and resistance to change.


M'bold.

What's this?! Why, it's almost as if she believes that Egyptian tombs were granaries... 

The punch line?



> “*This is the most curious appointment since Caligula named his horse as consul*,” scoffed McGill University’s Dr. Michael Rasminsky, calling the Zamboni ideas “profoundly non-scientific.”


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Kelly McParland: Liberals start their new life another day older and deeper in debt


This should come as no surprise to anyone.

We all knew the Harper balanced budget projection was almost entirely smoke and mirrors. Some of us even stated as much within days of the budget announcement. Would have been lovely to be proven wrong but such was not to be.


----------



## Macfury

If everyone knew this, then Prime Minister Tumblr knew it too.




eMacMan said:


> This should come as no surprise to anyone.
> 
> We all knew the Harper balanced budget projection was almost entirely smoke and mirrors. Some of us even stated as much within days of the budget announcement. Would have been lovely to be proven wrong but such was not to be.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> If everyone knew this, then Prime Minister Tumblr knew it too.


Believing the word of the Harper would indeed be borderline idiotic. 

I notice that Bombardier is once again at the trough begging for a Billion dollar handout. Maybe this would be a good place for the New PM to practice; just into say no!


----------



## Macfury

I attended an event where the Quebec Minister of Finance said that government should not pick winner and losers... except for Bomabardier.

I hope that the PM says no, simply because its 2015.



eMacMan said:


> Believing the word of the Harper would indeed be borderline idiotic.
> 
> I notice that Bombardier is once again at the trough begging for a Billion dollar handout. Maybe this would be a good place for the New PM to practice; just into say no!


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Thankfully, the Paris Talks are already headed for "progressive" disaster--which is to say, no agreement.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Thankfully, the Paris Talks are already headed for "progressive" disaster--which is to say, no agreement.



How would you know, asshole? Are you a soothsayer?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Thank goodness for this -

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/brison-says-governments-brand-is-canada-not-trudeau


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Just paying more attention than you are. "Non-binding" is exactly what I like to hear. US, China, India--game over for global climate change weenies!



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How would you know, asshole? Are you a soothsayer?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> Just paying more attention than you are. "Non-binding" is exactly what I like to hear. US, China, India--game over for global climate change weenies!



Certainly a possibility asshole. But asshole, from my perspective, time is running out. It gets more and more critical as time marches on.


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Thank goodness for this -
> 
> Scott Brison says government’s brand is Canada, not Trudeau | Ottawa Citizen


The Conservatives could not differentiate between the interests of the Government of Canada an the interest of Conservative Party of Canada. 

The Reformers never had any respect for the institution of Parliament, nor the supremacy of Parliament. The Conservative Party of Canada inherited those values, ran on those values and that led to OGL ultimate electoral failure. :clap:


----------



## Rps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> How would you know, asshole? Are you a soothsayer?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Unless this is an in joke, one would get the impression that you are using insults rather than supporting discussion with facts and not derogatory opinion, or am I miss reading your posts?


----------



## Macfury

Of course from the perspective of white middle-aged "progressive" guilt time is running out. But there is no scientific basis for your worries. Relax.

*Paris climate deal will not be a legally binding treaty*
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/79daf872-8894-11e5-90de-f44762bf9896.html#axzz3rNzRhBQy



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Certainly a possibility asshole. But asshole, from my perspective, time is running out. It gets more and more critical as time marches on.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Unless this is an in joke, one would get the impression that you are using insults rather than supporting discussion with facts and not derogatory opinion, or am I miss reading your posts?


Nope. Pretty much nailed it. Typical MO from many on the "progressive" side of the argument...


----------



## FeXL

They ain't alone.

The problem with many "progressives" is they think that parliament is akin to royalty & PM akin to "king". They forget that parliament is actually supposed to work for the people, not dominate them...



BigDL said:


> The Reformers never had any respect for the institution of Parliament, nor the supremacy of Parliament.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Certainly a possibility asshole. But asshole, from my perspective, time is running out. It gets more and more critical as time marches on.



There should be comma after the word possibility and before asshole. Sorry to be an asshole about it, but punctuation errors drive me nuts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> They ain't alone.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with many "progressives" is they think that parliament is akin to royalty & PM akin to "king". They forget that parliament is actually supposed to work for the people, not dominate them...



Wow. You make Stephen Harper sound like he was a progressive then. Amazing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

fjnmusic said:


> There should be comma after the word possibility and before asshole. Sorry to be an asshole about it, but punctuation errors drive me nuts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You're right. My apologies.


----------



## FeXL

More like, refreshing...

And, by many standards, he was.



fjnmusic said:


> Wow. You make Stephen Harper sound like he was a progressive then. Amazing.


----------



## FeXL

What information, what empirical evidence, would it take you to change your mide?



skippythebushkangaroo said:


> ...from my perspective, time is running out. It gets more and more critical as time marches on.


----------



## fjnmusic

What excuse did the Conservatives have to muzzle scientists and their research? Did their discoveries somehow threaten the Canadian economic scene? The more we look back on the Harper era, the more totalitarian his regime seemed to be in my eyes. 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...iscuss-to-media-under-harper/article27244717/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

They are employees of the government. Each government gets to choose whether or not their employees speak directly to the press. I experience this frequently, regardless of who is in charge of the federal or provincial government at any given time.



fjnmusic said:


> What excuse did the Conservatives have to muzzle scientists and their research? Did their discoveries somehow threaten the Canadian economic scene? The more we look back on the Harper era, the more totalitarian his regime seemed to be in my eyes.
> Three scientists on the research they couldn't discuss with media under Harper - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

OK, for the sake of argument, let's accept your statement.

Question: Is not Justin just as totalitarian when he decrees (among other things) that all Liberals will vote pro-choice? He even went so far as to say that all candidates seeking to run in the election must be openly pro-choice. What about free vote?



fjnmusic said:


> The more we look back on the Harper era, the more totalitarian his regime seemed to be in my eyes.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> They are employees of the government. Each government gets to choose whether or not their employees speak directly to the press. I experience this frequently, regardless of who is in charge of the federal or provincial government at any given time.


Governments as employers must maintain standards. 

Old buddy, with all due respect, saying "each government" is patiently false in this context. In this context there is only one government. The Government of Canada. 

The other governments: 10 provincial; 3 Territorial and many, many Municipal. They may each in their turn establish and maintain standards for employees.

Again we see the confusion; Government Power with the policies and ethos of a particular political party. Conservatives see it as one and the same.


----------



## Macfury

Absolutely not. The Ontario government, for example, does not allow every one of its employee to speak directly to the press.




BigDL said:


> Governments as employers must maintain standards.
> 
> Old buddy, with all due respect, saying "each government" is patiently false in this context. In this context there is only one government. The Government of Canada.
> 
> The other governments: 10 provincial; 3 Territorial and many, many Municipal. They may each in their turn establish and maintain standards for employees.
> 
> Again we see the confusion; Government Power with the policies and ethos of a particular political party. Conservatives see it as one and the same.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Absolutely not. The Ontario government, for example, does not allow every one of its employee to speak directly to the press.


Friend, not meaning to be insulting: Yeah so what's your point?

I already stated that fact. For your ready reference I have underlined and put into bold letters my point on the matter.



BigDL said:


> Governments as employers must maintain standards.
> 
> Old buddy, with all due respect, saying "each government" is patiently false in this context. In this context there is only one government. The Government of Canada.
> 
> *The other governments: 10 provincial; 3 Territorial and many, many Municipal. They may each in their turn establish and maintain standards for employees.
> *
> Again we see the confusion; *Government Power with the policies and ethos of a particular political party. Conservatives see it as one and the same.*


----------



## Macfury

No different from the Feds. The choice of who one may speak to shifts with each new government in power.



BigDL said:


> Friend, not meaning to be insulting: Yeah so what's your point?
> 
> I already stated that fact. For your ready reference I have underlined and put into bold letters my point on the matter.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> OK, for the sake of argument, let's accept your statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Question: Is not Justin just as totalitarian when he decrees (among other things) that all Liberals will vote pro-choice? He even went so far as to say that all candidates seeking to run in the election must be openly pro-choice. What about free vote?



Oh the irony. Pro choice is by definition not totalitarian. One can always choose to be pro life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Forcing people to support a position against their conscience is totalitarian. If I tell you that you have the choice to drive any car, as long as you buy a car, that is also totalitarian.



fjnmusic said:


> Oh the irony. Pro choice is by definition not totalitarian. One can always choose to be pro life.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Once again, you entirely miss the point.

It matters not what selection the choices may offer. It matters that _the choice_, the one & only, is mandated from on high. That is what is totalitarian & illustrates precisely your criticism of Harper.

Again, what about free vote? What about representing your constituents?



fjnmusic said:


> Oh the irony. Pro choice is by definition not totalitarian. One can always choose to be pro life.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> No different from the Feds. The choice of who one may speak to shifts with each new government in power.


As stated earlier old buddy, with all due respect, saying "each government" is patiently false. 

The bumper sticker version: Government's employee standards change as evolution not reveloution. 

My understanding is conservatives need short simple answers and solutions. Anything more complicated shall not satisfy a conservative's understanding. 

Once again we can see your confusion:
Government Power versus the policies and ethos of a particular political party are not the same thing. Conservatives, apparently, can only grasp it one way, that being, as one and the same. [/QUOTE]


----------



## Macfury

No, you are simply wrong on this. I encounter these issues every day. The changes are not evolutionary--nor revolutionary--however, they come quickly with each new government.



BigDL said:


> As stated earlier old buddy, with all due respect, saying "each government" is patiently false.
> 
> The bumper sticker version: Government's employee standards change as evolution not reveloution.
> 
> My understanding is conservatives need short simple answers and solutions. Anything more complicated shall not satisfy a conservative's understanding.
> 
> Once again we can see your confusion:
> Government Power versus the policies and ethos of a particular political party are not the same thing. Conservatives, apparently, can only grasp it one way, that being, as one and the same.


[/QUOTE]


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> No, you are simply wrong on this. I encounter these issues every day. The changes are not evolutionary--nor revolutionary--however, they come quickly with each new government.


[/QUOTE]

Sadly, I know you are not capable of separating policies and ethos of political parties and Governance. Conservatives incapable of fully understanding the nuance of conventions under the Westminster System and at Common Law. That is the basis of much of our laws and standards in this country. 

Sure it would be easier for conservative to "make up" what the founders were saying but alas that is not our system of governance.


----------



## Macfury

It seems you are fixated on making such a connection, old pal.

That's quit a lofty accusation, dragging in the entire Westminster System as your proof.




> Sadly, I know you are not capable of separating policies and ethos of political parties and Governance. Conservatives incapable of fully understanding the nuance of conventions under the Westminster System and at Common Law. That is the basis of much of our laws and standards in this country.
> 
> Sure it would be easier for conservative to "make up" what the founders were saying but alas that is not our system of governance.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It seems you are fixated on making such a connection, old pal.
> 
> That's quit a lofty accusation, dragging in the entire Westminster System as your proof.


Hey Buddy, there there. 

You were dealt the hand you were dealt. Nothing to be gained from obsessing over it, dear friend.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Unless this is an in joke, one would get the impression that you are using insults rather than supporting discussion with facts and not derogatory opinion, or am I miss reading your posts?


Yes this is skippy's MO over the years. It is no joke, he is serious, you are not misreading his posts.

Obfuscate, deflect and insult. That is the manner in which he has always posted and will keep posting.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> That's for sure.


Actually 60% of Canadians didn't vote for Liberals.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

screature said:


> Actually 60% of Canadians didn't vote for Liberals.



And not even 1/3 voted for your buds the republicans.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> I don't think it was "accidental", but I shall extend my kudos to the new PM of Canada. *Voted for him since our local liberal candidate was stronger and more qualified than our local NDP candidate, and I wanted to have Trudeau rather than Mulcair as PM.*
> 
> Just imagine the margin of victory had Trudeau been ready???? (I never did like that Conservative commercial about JT "just not ready").
> 
> Still, he is going to be our PM with a majority government, so let us hope he is able to keep his campaign promises. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


That is the problem with our electoral system. We should be voting for our local Mps all the while because of the system we are also voting for a PM. There should be be two separate votes, one ofr you MP and one for PM.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> I feel for a good number of the NDP who went down last night. Harris was one of them. Politics is brutal sometimes.


:lmao: Do you know how many other good MPs went down... clearly not as you have blinders on and a very narrow focus.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Yeah, I was being sarcastic, Dr. G. It was as "accidental" as Notley's win last May. They both deserve their success and both ran positive campaigns.
> 
> The "just not ready" was a play on words, emphasizing his name: Just-in. They really wanted call attention away from the Trudeau brand name, which is still beloved in many parts of the country (save for Alberta). I* voted Lib too because I believe among the three, he clearly has the best leadership abilities. Everybody likes a come from behind success story.
> *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seriously? ! can understand the sentiment in a Hollywood movie but not in an election that decides the leader of a country,


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> T*he NDP were not humiliated anywhere near the way the Conservatives were. This was Harper's election to lose*, and lost he did. Big time. And aspire all of your assertions to the contrary, the Cons were not gaining the confidence of Canadian voters. But you got one thing right: ThreeHundredEight.com is a good source of polling information, even though they turned out to be a tad, ah...."conservative" in their final estimates.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? You clearly did pay any attention to polls.

The NDP entered this election as being front runners and the were reduce to 3rd place, that is a much bigger fall than the Conservatives felt.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Hey MF and you were not happy about a little Corporate Welfare on a section of Railway,bud you ain't seen nothing yet.
> 
> Vd With large deficits on the horizon, Liberal Governments in the three MerryTimes Provinces and his Baby Sitter elected in South Eastern New Brunswick...let them Pork Barrels roll...happy days are here again. :lmao:


You are a tired old man and ill read if you really believe that.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, he was a strong voice in the House of Commons.


He was wrong most of the time but he certainly had a strong voice.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> But isn't this exactly what many of you on the Right wanted? A decimated NDP?


I actually liked a "balance" in Parliament I would have preferred it to have have been a Liberal minority with the CPC forming the opposition.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> For the record, voter turnout (not including those who registered on election day) for the 2015 Federal Election was *68.49 %*


But the result was almost exactly the same as in 2011 with 60% of voters not voting for the majority party. So how exactly does it matter?

Demographic shift? Maybe. But with as many old folks dying off relative to new young voters I highly doubt it.


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> It will better than the last four years of the *asshole *you upheld and then even you admitted was past his best due date. Never again to republican rule.


You really seem to like the use of that word... I think it is telling of your character.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> You really seem to like the use of that word... I think it is telling of your character.


As I have maintained in this thread and others, the poor man needs help. No normal mature head of family male behaves in this manner. He has my deepest sympathy.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> It's interesting how much context frames things. Reviled Harper's crushing defeat was still over a million votes more than beloved Layton's Orange wave.





Vandave said:


> I think it's a fundamental problem with media. Everything needs to be sensationalized.





Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, even CNN is starting to do this .......... with hour after hour after hour coverage of an event that CBC would spend 15 minutes of coverage. Still, our election even made headlines on CNN.com in context of their primary season.
> 
> Justin Trudeau win is bad news for U.S. conservatives - CNN.com





Macfury said:


> Yes it has:



Agreed. There is always the 3rd 4th or 5th party and that is the media. It should not be the case.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Once again, you entirely miss the point.
> 
> 
> 
> It matters not what selection the choices may offer. It matters that _the choice_, the one & only, is mandated from on high. That is what is totalitarian & illustrates precisely your criticism of Harper.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, what about free vote? What about representing your constituents?



What about votes of non-confidence? Why even have political parties?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> What about votes of non-confidence? Why even have political parties?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly! The politically whipped parties of the day are part of what is wrong with politics in Canada.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Really? You clearly did pay any attention to polls.
> 
> 
> 
> The NDP entered this election as being front runners and the were reduce to 3rd place, that is a much bigger fall than the Conservatives felt.



The NDP have never formed government federally in this country. The Cons were defeated handily after forming government for the past nine years, the last four with a majority. You clearly do not understand what the term "bigger fall" means. The CPC clearly had much more to lose, and they clearly lost it. Clearly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> The NDP have never formed government federally in this country. The Cons were defeated handily after forming government for the past nine years, the last four with a majority. You clearly do not understand what the term "bigger fall" means. T*he CPC clearly had much more to lose, and they clearly lost it. Clearly. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes they did but the polls indicated otherwise going into the writ period.

According to the early polls the NDP were the Cons greatest threat. The Cons made a tactical error by dropping the writ too soon as they were worried too muchj about 3rd party advertising i..e. unions and such. It came to bite them in the butt as it gave JT too much time to get up to speed.

I guess it depends on how you want to look at it, is it worse to go from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd. Last place any way you look at it is not good.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> The NDP have never formed government federally in this country. The Cons were defeated handily after forming government for the past nine years, the last four with a majority. You clearly do not understand what the term "bigger fall" means. The CPC clearly had much more to lose, and they clearly lost it. Clearly.


The NDP lost 51 of their 95 seats. That is a 54% drop in seats.

The Conservatives on the other hand lost 60 of their 159 seats. The is a drop of 38% drop in seats.

Hmm, lemme see now. Isn’t 54% a much bigger number than 38% ? Gosh, it does indeed seem to be about a 30% larger loss than the Conservatives.

Kind of lays you theory flat on its butt, don’tcha think?

Never mind the Dippers also lost official opposition status to the Conservatives on top of that. Now that too kind of adds up to the Dippers being the biggest losers.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> That is the problem with our electoral system. We should be voting for our local Mps all the while because of the system we are also voting for a PM. There should be be two separate votes, one ofr you MP and one for PM.


My, my, my! Conservatives really do not understand the Westminster System given the above. 

Sadly for you, it can't be reduced to a bumper sticker slogan, for your understanding. 



screature said:


> You are a tired old man and ill read if you really believe that.


 With all due respect, there's no fix for stupid.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> My, my, my! Conservatives really do not understand the Westminster System given the above.
> 
> Sadly for you, it can't be reduced to a bumper sticker slogan, for your understanding.
> *
> With all due respect, there's no fix for stupid*.


There was no respect intended in that comment. If I were someone else I might call you an A-hole for deliberately making things personal where there is no reason to do so. You were arrogant and insulting and there was no respect intended so don't try and pretend otherwise. That statement was simply a lie.

Look in the mirror and think once in a while. I dare say I understand the Westminster System of government better than you do one hundred times over.

But that does not mean I have to turn a blind eye to its flaws like you seem to be willing to do so.

I thought you supported the abolition of the Senate which is a primary component of the Westminster System of Government.

It seems you want to cherry pick what components of the Westminster System that suit you best.

I am talking about fundamental diplomatic change. What are you talking about from your newly founded place of supporting the fool on the Hill and the status quo?

Get over yourself and your new found sense of superiority even though it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Regarding my post:


screature said:


> *You are a tired old ma*n and ill read if you really believe that.


I apologize for that portion of my post. It was unkind and uncalled for. Mea culpa.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Yes they did but the polls indicated otherwise going into the writ period.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the early polls the NDP were the Cons greatest threat. The Cons made a tactical error by dropping the writ too soon as they were worried too muchj about 3rd party advertising i..e. unions and such. It came to bite them in the butt as it gave JT too much time to get up to speed.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it depends on how you want to look at it, is it worse to go from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd. Last place any way you look at it is not good.



I'd say you're pretty much as powerless in second or third place. Maybe Elizabeth May is more powerless, but at least people know her name. As Fr as polls, I thought from the outset Mulcair had the biggest disadvantage going into the election, being first in the polls (that and the brown eyes, but that's already been discussed. I believe we did not agree). The problem with starting in first place is you've got nowhere to go but down. Looking back on it, JT ran a solid campaign, focussed on the positive and was able to capitalize on the fact that people were tired of Harper but didn't trust the NDP to form a national gov't. They didn't want half-measures, like a Liberal minority, so they mainly threw their support behind the Libs. Well, maybe not Alberta, and you should hear the right wing here whine now. Some even pipe dream of Western separation again. There are simply too many sore losers who don't go away quietly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> The NDP lost 51 of their 95 seats. That is a 54% drop in seats.
> 
> 
> 
> The Conservatives on the other hand lost 60 of their 159 seats. The is a drop of 38% drop in seats.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, lemme see now. Isn’t 54% a much bigger number than 38% ? Gosh, it does indeed seem to be about a 30% larger loss than the Conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of lays you theory flat on its butt, don’tcha think?
> 
> 
> 
> Never mind the Dippers also lost official opposition status to the Conservatives on top of that. Now that too kind of adds up to the Dippers being the biggest losers.



Gee, Don. I'd say 60 is a bigger number than 51 as far as number of seats lost, coupled with losing the actual power to govern the nation with a solid majority for another four years. Then again, maybe I don't understand your kind of math or your kind of rationalization. Where I come from, we would call that percentage BS argument slanting the numbers to mitigate your losses. In any event, you can wax eloquently and at great length about how much the NDP lost, but it's ultimately about who won, isn't it? You know, the ones with power to legislate? That would be the Liberals. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

I don't know if his plans have changed due to the Paris attacks, but Trudeau is supposed to be attending the G20 in Turkey this weekend, which will include a meeting with Peña Nieto:

_Trudeau promised in the campaign that he'd immediately lift the visa requirement for Mexicans travelling to Canada, something he and Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto will likely announce after their meeting._ (TorontoSun)​
This makes me very happy, and also very frustrated. Is there a word for that?

*Happy: *My wife will now be able to travel freely to Canada.

*Frustrated: *we just blew over $600 on visa fees, bus trips (in the middle of a hurricane), medical exam, couriers, etc. for something that will no longer be needed.

I knew it was likely to happen, but I thought sometime in 2016... 

Now I know how people feel when Apple updates the model of Mac they just bought a few days before....


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> I don't know if his plans have changed due to the Paris attacks, but Trudeau is supposed to be attending the G20 in Turkey this weekend, which will include a meeting with Peña Nieto:
> 
> 
> 
> _Trudeau promised in the campaign that he'd immediately lift the visa requirement for Mexicans travelling to Canada, something he and Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto will likely announce after their meeting._ (TorontoSun)​
> 
> 
> This makes me very happy, and also very frustrated. Is there a word for that?
> 
> 
> 
> *Happy: *My wife will now be able to travel freely to Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> *Frustrated: *we just blew over $600 on visa fees, bus trips (in the middle of a hurricane), medical exam, couriers, etc. for something that will no longer be needed.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew it was likely to happen, but I thought sometime in 2016...
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know how people feel when Apple updates the model of Mac they just bought a few days before....



Perhaps you could ask Mr. Harper for a refund. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rgray




----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> There was no respect intended in that comment. If I were someone else I might call you an A-hole for deliberately making things personal where there is no reason to do so. You were arrogant and insulting and there was no respect intended so don't try and pretend otherwise. That statement was simply a lie.
> 
> Look in the mirror and think once in a while. I dare say I understand the Westminster System of government better than you do one hundred times over.
> 
> But that does not mean I have to turn a blind eye to its flaws like you seem to be willing to do so.
> 
> I thought you supported the abolition of the Senate which is a primary component of the Westminster System of Government.
> 
> It seems you want to cherry pick what components of the Westminster System that suit you best.
> 
> I am talking about fundamental diplomatic change. What are you talking about from your newly founded place of supporting the fool on the Hill and the status quo?
> 
> Get over yourself and your new found sense of superiority even though it has absolutely nothing to do with you.
> 
> Regarding my post:
> 
> 
> I apologize for that portion of my post. It was unkind and uncalled for. Mea culpa.


I would like to apologize to you. My comments were not directed to you personally. The " "YOU" was directed to the group "conservatives." I should also like to apologize for the use of the word stupid. Conservatives are not a stupid group of people.

Conservatives are built the way they are built. It frustrates me.

As far as bicameral versus unicameral Legislatures in this Country, unicameral Legislatures out number by far the single bicameral Legislature left under our Westminster System of Governments in Canada. 

Yes I wish to see one more unicameral Legislature added to the list, however that shall not change the Westminster System, but would upset conservatives merely because it's a change.


----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> I'd say you're pretty much as powerless in second or third place. Maybe Elizabeth May is more powerless, but at least people know her name. As Fr as polls, I thought from the outset Mulcair had the biggest disadvantage going into the election, being first in the polls (that and the brown eyes, but that's already been discussed. I believe we did not agree). The problem with starting in first place is you've got nowhere to go but down. Looking back on it, JT ran a solid campaign, focussed on the positive and was able to capitalize on the fact that people were tired of Harper but didn't trust the NDP to form a national gov't. They didn't want half-measures, like a Liberal minority, so they mainly threw their support behind the Libs. Well, maybe not Alberta, and you should hear the right wing here whine now. Some even pipe dream of Western separation again. There are simply too many sore losers who don't go away quietly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Supremacy of Parliament was maintained on October 20th. The people of Canada have spoken and the people are never wrong. 

Some of the people may regret their choice as some thoughtful, respected, hard working, Parliamentarians shall not return to the House.

The NDP shall not have as many questions in Question Period and shall have less members on committees. This may also be a regret for many voters as well. The NDP were never leaderless and have solidarity of the caucus.

Ms. May shall not have the benefit of a Green "seconder" but her rights and privileges shall remain the same, as the last Parliament, so little has changed.

OGL helped with the rebirth of the Bloc Quebecois nearly to level of Party Status. 

The Conservatives are still in peril. Without a permanent Leader and no guarantee of holding the conservative coalition together what shall become of them?

That being said Mr. Trudeau and his cabinet clearly have the confidence of the House of Parliament even before the recalling of the Legislature. Much power is given to the Governor in Council and his(her) Prime Minister.


----------



## Macfury

The BQ's original decimation was the result of separatist overtures Jack Layton had made in the last election. Mulcair could not maintain those members inside the NDP framework. I see this almost entirely as a BQ/NDP transaction.



BigDL said:


> OGL helped with the rebirth of the Bloc Quebecois nearly to level of Party Status.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> The BQ's original decimation was the result of separatist overtures Jack Layton had made in the last election. Mulcair could not maintain those members inside the NDP framework. I see this almost entirely as a BQ/NDP transaction.


Sure, tell yourself, whatever get you through the night.(of Conservative misfortune)


----------



## Macfury

Would have been happy to say that those seats could have been picked up by the CPC but I never believed it.



BigDL said:


> Sure, tell yourself, whatever get you through the night.(of Conservative misfortune)


----------



## Vandave

BigDL said:


> The people of Canada have spoken and the people are never wrong.


Don't kid yourself. People are wrong all the time. You certainly believed that was the case for the last 10 years.


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Don't kid yourself. People are wrong all the time. You certainly believed that was the case for the last 10 years.


The people finally said [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVr0M7WCBu4[/ame]


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> I would like to apologize to you. My comments were not directed to you personally. The " "YOU" was directed to the group "conservatives." I should also like to apologize for the use of the word stupid. Conservatives are not a stupid group of people.
> 
> Conservatives are built the way they are built. It frustrates me.
> 
> As far as bicameral versus unicameral Legislatures in this Country, unicameral Legislatures out number by far the single bicameral Legislature left under our Westminster System of Governments in Canada.
> 
> Yes I wish to see one more unicameral Legislature added to the list, however that shall not change the Westminster System, *but would upset conservatives merely because it's a change*.


Please note that Michael Chong, a Conservative, has been the only one to put forward Legislation, the Reform Act that would significantly alter the balance of power from the PMO and the Prime Minster to give backbenchers more power and a say in how the House of Commons operates so I cannot agree with that statement.

Also in terms of change, whether you like the changes or not, the previous government was all about change, just in terms that those of the left didn't agree with.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> Don't kid yourself. People are wrong all the time. You certainly believed that was the case for the last 10 years.





BigDL said:


> The people finally said https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVr0M7WCBu4


I agree with Vandave. It is kind of like it is in retail sales, which I worked in for several years in my youth, "The customer is always right.". I altered the saying among my colleagues and used to say, "The customer is always right, they even have the right to be wrong." And so it is the same with the democratic process.

Winning doesn't mean you are right or correct, it just means that you received more votes regardless of what is "right" or wrong. History is the judge of that and we will have to wait and see.

Currently in terms of the number of seats in the House of Commons, the Liberals have a strong majority in terms of the numbers of seats, but in terms of popular vote they are in the minority in terms of popular support as they only garnered 39% of the popular vote as did the Conservatives in 2011.

There is clearly need for reform in our System of government which does not have to strictly adhere to those of the Westminster model, surely as a modern democracy we can shake things up and come up with our own rules and exceptions.

When it comes to proportional representation, I am skeptical because the process would be antidemocratic as has thus far been postulated. It would still be a top down process and that is why it has soundly been rejected by the provinces where it has been proposed, Ontario being the most notable of them.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> Don't kid yourself. People are wrong all the time. You certainly believed that was the case for the last 10 years.



Exactly. Think back 14 years to the people having faith that their government just a little ways to the south was telling them the truth about "weapons of mass destruction" as the justification for a more than ten year "pre-emptive strike." The people can be wrong—VERY wrong as it turns out—and continue believing the lie for far longer than makes any logical sense. Many down south still think the world is only 6000 years old. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Many down south still think the world is only 6000 years old.


Many, north and south, think human treaties can control the climate.


----------



## Vandave

Trudeau is going to stick out like a sore thumb at the G20. 19 nations there will endorse stronger action against a terrorist state. 1 will be in retreat.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Many, north and south, think human treaties can control the climate.



Touché, as PC guy used to say. 


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## SINC

Vandave said:


> Trudeau is going to stick out like a sore thumb at the G20. 19 nations there will endorse stronger action against a terrorist state. 1 will be in retreat.


Sadly this will be just the beginning of a lightweight representing Canada for too many years.


----------



## SINC

Good to know some are keeping track:

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca


----------



## BigDL

When you're feeling like an outsider does making fun of the New Prime Minister improve things old friend? 

Hey Pal are the feelings of western alienation welling up once again?


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## Macfury

Did you feel like an outsider, BigDL, in your Maritime hideaway, during your relentless attacks on Prime Minister Harper? It must have been terrible for you.


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau, sadly, seems to be a moron with suicidal tendencies:

Trudeau stands by accelerated refugee plan at G20 summit - The Globe and Mail



> “We will be accepting 25,000 Syrian refugees between now and January 1st and investing and ensuring that we will be empowering and integrating them into success and the paths for success that people around the world are hoping to see,” he said.


----------



## Vandave

SINC said:


> Sadly this will be just the beginning of a lightweight representing Canada for too many years.


I would like to know what it would take for Trudeau to recognize ISIS as a security risk to Canada. I'm surprised the downing of an airliner and the Paris attacks don't qualify.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Did you feel like an outsider, BigDL, in your Maritime hideaway, during your relentless attacks on Prime Minister Harper? It must have been terrible for you.


Yes with all our hopes and dreams pegged to Peter MacKay as he was devoured by the western style of Reform.

But hopes springs anew this fall, majority Liberals in all the Maritimes, Liberals in Ottawa deficits to be had, El Niño on its way...aaah...thanks for thinking of me...us old and trusted friend.


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> I would like to know what it would take for Trudeau to recognize ISIS as a security risk to Canada. I'm surprised the downing of an airliner and the Paris attacks don't qualify.


...but, but, but taking away the high profile, little used and largely ineffectual CF18's shall lower our profile. 

Thereby making us less noticeable, not thought of, therefore safer, are we not?


----------



## SINC

Vandave said:


> I would like to know what it would take for Trudeau to recognize ISIS as a security risk to Canada. I'm surprised the downing of an airliner and the Paris attacks don't qualify.


Hardly surprising given JT's penchant for coddling ISIS. Give him a few weeks and he will have us the laughing stock of the world. Either that or our allies will begin to realize Canadians have elected a doofus.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I jes' luvs me some snark first thing in the mornin'...

On CF-18's, veterans offices & refugees. 

C'mon precious... you didn't actually think...



> ...the Liberals were gonna start doing any of that crazy stuff they promised...
> 
> ...
> 
> _"Gee, those Liberal promises are already disappearing. The new Veterans Affairs Minister, Kent Hehr says Canadians must have misheard if they think the Liberals are committed to re-opening the nine veterans offices they explicitly promised to re-open during the campaign."​_
> Sure, Justin, the cheque is in the mail. Anyway, you're obviously way too busy poisoning the St Lawrence River to pick up a phone and talk to anyone in the military.


Yep...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada to implement oil tanker ban on northern B.C. coast



> Canada will implement a moratorium on oil tanker traffic along the northern coast of British Columbia, effectively slamming the door on a controversial pipeline project that was already facing massive development hurdles.
> 
> In a letter released on Friday, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau instructed Transport Minister Marc Garneau to work with numerous other ministries to "formalize" the ban on oil tanker traffic, a Liberal campaign promise ahead of the federal elections last month.


So, those of you who are applauding this decision...

1) Where are your Transfer Payments going to come from?
2) Are you comfortable shipping crude via rail?


----------



## Rps

Just a few thoughts on this morning's banter here. Do you guys really want to go to war, I mean a real one not just dropping a few bombs.....like our 2% of the current sorties already?

Politically, Mr. Trudeau can keep his promise of refugees by handling the bonafide backlog under Mr. Harper's tenure. This meets political and ideological agendas within normal risk.

Frankly I am not supporting any refugees under the current situation, there are too many variables out there.


----------



## Vandave

Nobody wants to go to war. You go to war because you have to and because it's the right thing to do. There is a terrorist state that has actively planned terrorist operations overseas. If people can't see the merits of crushing that regime, then I'm at a complete loss. We elected Neville Chamberlain and he certainly has his supporters.

I can understand, but not agree, with the position of Trudeau a month ago. Things have changed significantly since then. 

Like I said above, I think Trudeau is going to get a real lesson at the G20. I bet he comes out of that different than when he went in.


----------



## Rps

Vandave, he will only change if he is willing to learn.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Reality check for Sajjan on ISIS



> Harjit Sajjan, a veteran of Bosnia and Afghanistan, is no fool. He and his service to our country and our military deserve our respect but his recent comments to CBC about the threat of ISIS and the Trudeau government’s decision to pull Canada back from the fight look like pure foolishness today.
> 
> "_ISIS is a threat, no doubt about that. Should we fear it? No. The Canadian population should have full confidence in all the security services to keep us safe,” Sajjan said.​_


Well, I feel safer already.



> In the waking hours after the attacks ISIS claimed responsibility saying that France was at the “top of the list” of its targets. If only the French had sent some diplomats to the caliphate maybe this could have all been avoided.
> 
> That line may sound glib but Minister Sajjan actually told CBC that we could have dealt with ISIS diplomatically rather than militarily if we had been smarter.
> 
> _"They were smaller at one time, we need to get better at identifying the subtle indicators so we might be able to have dealt with it diplomatically,” Sajjan said.​_


Yep. It's our fault because we didn't give them a hug based on prior "indicators"...

Just one question:



> *How do you negotiate with people whose opening and closing positions are submit or die?*


M'bold.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I would like to know what it would take for Trudeau to recognize ISIS as a security risk to Canada. I'm surprised the downing of an airliner and the Paris attacks don't qualify.



Don't call them ISIS. They are not a state. Call them Daesh—it pisses them off. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

How would that bring them closer to a big inclusive hug from PM Tumblr?



fjnmusic said:


> Don't call them ISIS. They are not a state. Call them Daesh—it pisses them off.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

Vandave said:


> Nobody wants to go to war. You go to war because you have to and because it's the right thing to do. There is a terrorist state that has actively planned terrorist operations overseas. If people can't see the merits of crushing that regime, then I'm at a complete loss. We elected Neville Chamberlain and he certainly has his supporters.
> 
> I can understand, but not agree, with the position of Trudeau a month ago. Things have changed significantly since then.
> 
> Like I said above, I think Trudeau is going to get a real lesson at the G20. I bet he comes out of that different than when he went in.


Well let see crushing the regime. When did we last hear of that simplistic solution?

Well there was that Coalition of the Willing acting on that Weapons of Mass Destruction thing, now where did that get us? Peace and security in our time?

And by the way where did my precious find that nastiest ol' ISIS anyway? Nasty ISIS, nasties.

Again, how simple is it for people who can see the merits of crushing that regime? The fixing of the situation in the region...well I'm at a complete loss!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The fixing of the situation in the region...well I'm at a complete loss!




We know you are! That's why you need to step aside and let some men handle it.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> We know you are! That's why you need to step aside and let some men handle it.


Dear friend so cutting. I am wounded. 

By the way, Pally, may we expect a simplistic answer, a well thought response, is it coming?


----------



## Macfury

And another anti-growth policy for Toronto, courtesy PM Tumblr:

Liberals have jumped the gun by shutting down Billy Bishop jets debate - The Globe and Mail



> The new Liberal government has acted with indecent haste to kill a proposal to fly jets out of Billy Bishop, Toronto’s island airport. For a crew that says it is committed to open consultation and sound science, this is not a good way to begin.
> 
> The jets idea is still under study. Toronto city council voted last year to seek reports on the effect an expanded, jets-capable airport would have on boaters, the harbour and the environment. Council is still waiting to see the results.
> 
> Now, little more than a week after the Liberals took office, Transport Minister Marc Garneau has moved to close all further debate on the issue. Ottawa, he made clear on Thursday, will not allow the three-party agreement that governs the airport to be reopened. That pre-empts any decision by city council, the seat of local government.


----------



## CubaMark

*And the senseless backlash against innocents begins....*

*Peterborough mosque fire under investigation*








City police and fire officials are looking into a late-night fire at Peterborough's only mosque.

The fire occurred late Saturday evening at the mosque, located on Parkhill Rd. west of Monaghan Rd. Firefighters responded to the blaze at 11 p.m., quickly confining the fire to the main floor of the building.

The building suffered heavy smoke damage inside, with little damage evident outside. Damage is estimated at $80,000, fire officials said.

No injuries were reported.

City police and fire officials remained on the scene, with the property cordoned off. Police, Peterborough Fire Services and the Ontario Fire Marshal are investigating.

More details to come.​
(PeterboroughExaminer)


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> And another anti-growth policy for Toronto, courtesy PM Tumblr:
> 
> Liberals have jumped the gun by shutting down Billy Bishop jets debate - The Globe and Mail


Ah, that's too bad. First thing you know those guys who were calling Harper a dictator will have to begin calling their own JT the very same thing. If they're honest, that is.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> We know you are! That's why you need to step aside and let some men handle it.



?? Men? By spouting out your ass from the safety of an online forum? Hardly heroic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SINC

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news...w-is-not-the-time-to-cut-and-run-dimanno.html

Wonder if JT can wrap his giant intellect around this one?


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Well let see crushing the regime. When did we last hear of that simplistic solution?
> 
> Well there was that Coalition of the Willing acting on that Weapons of Mass Destruction thing, now where did that get us? Peace and security in our time?
> 
> *And by the way where did my precious find that nastiest ol' ISIS anyway? Nasty ISIS, nasties.
> *
> Again, how simple is it for people who can see the merits of crushing that regime? The fixing of the situation in the region...well I'm at a complete loss!


Really!!!??? "Nasties"... ISIS makes a point of killing people in the most barbaric and horrific ways and you tritely call them "nasties". You need to get a grip my friend, they are pure evil.

Refugees from the region almost 100% say that what will end the suffering is the stopping of the war.

What war do you know of on this scale that blood shed was not pat of the equation?

No one is willing to say it but we are living in the times of WWIII, it just hasn't been officially declared or stated. Just wait until some of the "refugees" start setting up splinter cells in Europe and the rest of free world. That is when leftists like you will begin to realize what a threat this vast migration is to Canada and the rest of the none Muslim world.

Yes there are moderate Muslims but for the most part they already live here.

Accepting tens of thousands of Muslim refugees into this country without due diligence is pure folly IMO.

This is nothing at all like the Vietnamese boat people situation in the least, despite the media (CBC) and the new government claims.

Are you of Swiss origin?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *And the senseless backlash against innocents begins....*


What is your point CM? This kind of crap happens all the time regardless of religion or race. 

Are you suggesting that it happened because Harper lost? If so I think you are reading far too much into things to fit in with your political agenda. If that is your way of thinking it borders on paranoia.

And even if it was an act because of the election results it only reflects on a particular individual and not a whole group as you seem to want to imply.

Prejudice much yourself. Look in the mirror.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> What is your point CM? This kind of crap happens all the time regardless of religion or race.
> 
> Are you suggesting that it happened because Harper lost? If so I think you are reading far too much into things to fit in with your political agenda. If that is your way of thinking it borders on paranoia.
> 
> And even if it was an act because of the election results it only reflects on a particular individual and not a whole group as you seem to want to imply.
> 
> Prejudice much yourself. Look in the mirror.


I don't know from where you pulled that one....  Harper? He's old news.

IMHO, the arson in Peterborough is entirely likely an action taken by someone upset about the Paris attacks.


----------



## rgray




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## rgray




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## Macfury

Trudeau is already personally and directly responsible for killing billions of dollars in real economic activity. The next downturn will likely be a Liberal party recession. 



rgray said:


>


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Trudeau is already personally and directly responsible for killing billions of dollars in real economic activity. The next downturn will likely be a Liberal party recession.


I not sure of your reference Buddy, the down turn we're in presently, ya' know 2015-2016 fiscal year cause by the poor fiscal planning of the Conservatives.

Or do you mean, friend, some fiscal upset into the future? How do you know this? Along with your other considerable attributes are you psychic?


----------



## FeXL

Congratulations, Ontairowe!!! 

This is what happens on a Friday the 13th...

Cap-and-trade cash grab



> The outline released by Ontario’s Liberal government Friday of how it plans to introduce cap-and-trade carbon pricing to Ontario starting Jan. 1, 2017, *is the most financially irresponsible document I have ever read in nine years of reporting on climate change and carbon pricing.*


M'bold.

Well, that about sums it up, doncha think? However, in case there is a bit of scepticism:

Like a carbon tax, but much worse



> If you want to put a tax on greenhouse gas emissions, there’s an easy way to do it.
> 
> ...
> 
> Then there’s a second way, which is much more complicated and expensive. It requires a big bureaucracy to administer and is highly vulnerable to special interests. Lots can go wrong. In Europe, where they’ve been trying to get it right for a decade, it’s been an abject failure. This system is called cap and trade, and nobody but the experts can understand how it works.
> 
> *Kathleen Wynne’s Ontario has chosen the second way.*


M'bold.

Way to get more public service cronies on board. Wynneing!!!


----------



## Macfury

Let's hear the Harper violins again. Play them sweetly, old friend... brings a tear to my eye.



BigDL said:


> I not sure of your reference Buddy, the down turn we're in presently, ya' know 2015-2016 fiscal year cause by the poor fiscal planning of the Conservatives.
> 
> Or do you mean, friend, some fiscal upset into the future? How do you know this? Along with your other considerable attributes are you psychic?


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Let's hear the Harper violins again. Play them sweetly, old friend... brings a tear to my eye.


Pally what violins? Bud as yet the fat lady ain't singing...but unfortunately it's the starter that's gotta take the loss this far into the game, not the reliever.

BTW may I infer no precognitive or paranormal abilities on your part old Friend?


----------



## SINC

Sometimes the truth hurts . . .


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Sometimes the truth hurts . . .



Smarter than you. Just because you don't understand the game plan doesn't make you right. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Tell us about the game plan. 



fjnmusic said:


> Smarter than you. Just because you don't understand the game plan doesn't make you right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




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## rgray




----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> We know you are! That's why you need to step aside and let some men handle it.


SO? MF Is this the manly, Men Acting as You Contemplated?

I would never step aside to allow such cowardice actions to take place.


----------



## Macfury

Of course not. That you could be so confused about it as to need to ask is a bit shocking.



BigDL said:


> SO? MF Is this the manly, Men Acting as You Contemplated?
> 
> I would never step aside to allow such cowardice actions to place.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Of course not. That you could be so confused about it as to need to ask is a bit shocking.


Well friend it was the Conservatives that raised the issue as a matter of policy. It was a Conservative Minister of the Crown that was illegally picking on a Muslim woman for *her chosen* manner of dress. 

During the election campaign, buddy, it was all the conservatives here, that touted the legitimacy of the Conservative's illegal policies.

I was told by a conservative sympathizer, old friend, here and I quote "That's why you need to step aside and let some men handle it." 

Some "_men_" (I use the word loosely) acted in a discriminatory, bigoted and violent manner against a Muslim women and her children. 

Why is it now not legitimate for me to inquire, if this is the type of action, by "some men handling it", what is it you envisioned as conservatives responding?


----------



## MacGuiver

I find it amusing on Facebook, many of the people that were railing against Harper for creating unjustified fear of ISIL to win the election are now fearful of ISIL and worried that Prince Selfie isn't up to the task of protecting us. Trudeau looked like an ass on the world stage. As leaders are coming together to bolster their efforts against ISIL, he has us packing up what little we were doing and heading home. To save face he's doubling down on his decision. Many Trudeau supporters are also suddenly getting worried about fast tracking 25000 migrants of various origin into this country by Christmas.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> Trudeau looked like an ass on the world stage. As leaders are coming together to bolster their efforts against ISIL, he has us packing up what little we were doing and heading home.


.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Tell us about the game plan.



Near as I can figure, since retaliation has only bred more retaliation over the last 14 years (and much longer, truth be told), resulting in the creation of more terrorists, perhaps showing compassion to Muslims, particularly refugees, might actually create a stronger impression of the West. ISIS/Daesh is really a much smaller organization than it pretends to be—they need to be put in their place. Ground war tactics do not work against this kind of enemy. Hating Muslims has not worked so far, and it's the typical knee jerk reaction of the Western world.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Much like your reaction representative of the namby pamby lefty love 'em all and kill 'em with kindness. That being contrary to the view of 19 out of 20 G20 members.


fjnmusic said:


> Near as I can figure, since retaliation has only bred more retaliation over the last 14 years (and much longer, truth be told), resulting in the creation of more terrorists, perhaps showing compassion to Muslims, particularly refugees, might actually create a stronger impression of the West. ISIS/Daesh is really a much smaller organization than it pretends to be—they need to be put in their place. Ground war tactics do not work against this kind of enemy. Hating Muslims has not worked so far, and it's the typical knee jerk reaction of the Western world.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

This is so much horse****.

Many "conservatives" here noted that 80% of the Canadian populace, conservatives & liberals alike, across all wakes of society, agreed with the Conservatives position of not wearing the niqab during the citizenship ceremony.

I challenge you to quote a single sentence from this board that gives any credence to your accusation of "Conservatives touting legitimacy of illegal policies".

Put up or shut up...

In addition, it's been a week since I responded to your BS on the GHG Thread & you haven't responded. Thank you for shutting up there...



BigDL said:


> During the election campaign, buddy, it was all the conservatives here, that touted the legitimacy of the Conservative's illegal policies.


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> This is so much horse****.
> 
> Many "conservatives" here noted that 80% of the Canadian populace, conservatives & liberals alike, across all wakes of society, agreed with the Conservatives position of not wearing the niqab during the citizenship ceremony.
> 
> I challenge you to quote a single sentence from this board that gives any credence to your accusation of "Conservatives touting legitimacy of illegal policies".
> 
> Put up or shut up...
> 
> In addition, it's been a week since I responded to your BS on the GHG Thread & you haven't responded. Thank you for shutting up there...


How are conditions out on the lunatic's fringe?


----------



## Macfury

Perfect "progressive" positioning. They can't be beaten--only loved into submission.

Worked in WWII--why not now?



fjnmusic said:


> Near as I can figure, since retaliation has only bred more retaliation over the last 14 years (and much longer, truth be told), resulting in the creation of more terrorists, perhaps showing compassion to Muslims, particularly refugees, might actually create a stronger impression of the West. ISIS/Daesh is really a much smaller organization than it pretends to be—they need to be put in their place. Ground war tactics do not work against this kind of enemy. Hating Muslims has not worked so far, and it's the typical knee jerk reaction of the Western world.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

This should be required reading for every one here who opposes military action including our wimp of a PM. My late father who volunteered and went to Germany to eliminate the Nazis, and wounded in the process, would turn over in his grave at the dishonour JT has brought to soldiers who made the opportunity for a lightweight to become the PM possible.

Thinking the unthinkable: This is war - The Globe and Mail


----------



## FeXL

You tell me. You're the one out in the middle of la-la, I mean, Liberal Land.

So, as you avoid the issue entirely, I guess you got nuttin'. Quelle surprise...



BigDL said:


> How are conditions out on the lunatic's fringe?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Curious, innit, how the French PM is looking at instating this very policy...

Court told to freeze citizenship revocations in terror cases



> The federal government is walking away from a legal battle over attempts to strip Canadian citizenship from dual-nationals convicted of terrorism offences.
> 
> Lawyers for the government recently asked the Federal Court to suspend proceedings in two cases brought by Canadians convicted of terrorism-related offences who had been told by the previous Conservative government they would lose their citizenship.


Perspective can be a powerful motivator...


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> You tell me. You're the one out in the middle of la-la, I mean, Liberal Land.
> 
> So, as you avoid the issue entirely, I guess you got nuttin'. Quelle surprise...


I've been told, nothing is better than horse****. BTW is there sufficient horse**** at the lunatic's fringe or do you bring your own along with you to trade?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I don't know from where you pulled that one....  Harper? He's old news.
> 
> IMHO, the arson in Peterborough is entirely likely an action taken by someone upset about the Paris attacks.


Yes you do seem confused, Harper is not old news at this point, if you think so you are clearly not up to speed with Canadian politics aside from what you read in Mexico.

Harper's legacy will live on for years and will not be undone by one election just like PET's legacy took decades of undoing.

You are a history professor and should know better.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> You are a history professor and should know better.


I am not a history professor. My area is human development as a sub-set of development studies in general, which combines economics, political science, sociology, geography. 

And I still don't know what you're on about:



screature said:


> Are you suggesting that it happened because Harper lost? If so I think you are reading far too much into things to fit in with your political agenda. If that is your way of thinking it borders on paranoia.


My post had nothing to do with Harper. Didn't mention him, the Conservatives, the government nada. You manufactured an association that doesn't exist.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Much like your reaction representative of the namby pamby lefty love 'em all and kill 'em with kindness. That being contrary to the view of 19 out of 20 G20 members.



Not sure what your point is, Don. You're not denying that retaliation over the past 14 years hasn't served to make the world any safer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeXL

But I repeat myself...



FeXL said:


> So, as you avoid the issue entirely, I guess you got nuttin'. Quelle surprise...





BigDL said:


> I've been told, nothing is better than horse****. BTW is there sufficient horse**** at the lunatic's fringe or do you bring your own along with you to trade?


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Not sure what your point is, Don. You're not denying that retaliation over the past 14 years hasn't served to make the world any safer.



Well, I posted it once already Frank, so either you didn't read it, or chose to ignore it? It covers my point pretty well.

Thinking the unthinkable: This is war - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I am not a history professor. My area is human development as a sub-set of development studies in general, which combines economics, political science, sociology, geography.
> 
> And I still don't know what you're on about:
> 
> My post *had nothing to do with Harper. Didn't mention him*, the Conservatives, the government nada. You manufactured an association that doesn't exist.


*
Yes you did!*



CubaMark said:


> I don't know from where you pulled that one....  *Harper? He's old news.*
> 
> IMHO, the arson in Peterborough is entirely likely an action taken by someone upset about the Paris attacks.


You seem to not even be capable of acknowledging what you clearly stated. 

Sorry I misspoke about your are area of of expertise. So what are you are a doctor of exactly, economics, political science, sociology, geography... I am not quite sure or all of the above? Shouldn't you have four Phd's if that were the case?


----------



## fjnmusic

Here's a story right from Canada. Is that barbaric cultural practices hotline still operational? Seems there's some white boys who believe it's okay to beat up a Muslim woman who was just picking up her kids. 
https://news.vice.com/article/polic...-up-from-school-in-canada?utm_source=vicefbca


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Well, I posted it once already Frank, so either you didn't read it, or chose to ignore it? It covers my point pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking the unthinkable: This is war - The Globe and Mail



Wait, let me guess—another "war on terror"? You can't win this kind of "war" using ground war tactics. How do you know you've won a war on terror? When there are no terrorists left? What if you become the terrorist? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> Well, I posted it once already Frank, so either you didn't read it, or chose to ignore it? It covers my point pretty well.
> 
> Thinking the unthinkable: This is war - The Globe and Mail


When did the Globe and Mail become an acceptable reference Buddy?

Usually the short hand by you for the Globe and Mail was a snort of derision. Now its esteem has risen to reference, WOW! Times have changed. :clap:

Oh Yeah SUNNY WAYS, SUNNY WAYS!


----------



## Macfury

You sound like the loser in WWII who declared Japanese suicide bombers unbeatable. Of course you can win this war using on-the-ground troops.

Your mental confusion is tiring.



fjnmusic said:


> Wait, let me guess—another "war on terror"? You can't win this kind of "war" using ground war tactics. How do you know you've won a war on terror? When there are no terrorists left? What if you become the terrorist?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> *Yes you did!*
> 
> You seem to not even be capable of acknowledging what you clearly stated.


I'm being serious here. Go back to the post (17865) to which you responded (17870), and follow the trail. You brought up Harper, I didn't. I'm not here for a tit-for-tat... truly and honestly, you are mistaken.



screature said:


> Sorry I misspoke about your are area of of expertise. So what are you are a doctor of exactly, economics, political science, sociology, geography... I am not quite sure or all of the above? Shouldn't you have four Phd's if that were the case?


God no. One was enough torture. My PhD is in Development Studies, an interdisciplinary field.


----------



## Macfury

I agree here screature. CM did not bring up Harper first.



CubaMark said:


> I'm being serious here. Go back to the post (17865) to which you responded (17870), and follow the trail. You brought up Harper, I didn't. I'm not here for a tit-for-tat... truly and honestly, you are mistaken.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You sound like the loser in WWII who declared Japanese suicide bombers unbeatable. Of course you can win this war using on-the-ground troops.
> 
> 
> 
> Your mental confusion is tiring.



It's been 14 years, Macfury. We haven't won this war. W never will using the same tactics. It's like a fly that keeps smacking into the same window. Your lack of ability to think outside the box is frustrating.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every so often...



BigDL said:


> When did the Globe and Mail become an acceptable reference Buddy?


----------



## Macfury

Your thinking is straight out of WWII. I have rarely seen you think "outside the box."



fjnmusic said:


> It's been 14 years, Macfury. We haven't won this war. W never will using the same tactics. It's like a fly that keeps smacking into the same window. Your lack of ability to think outside the box is frustrating.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Your thinking is straight out of WWII. I have rarely seen you think "outside the box."



WWII? You've lost me. Please explain your thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Clock ticking on Canada’s refugee plan while concerns expressed over tight timeline



> The timing of Canada’s crash program to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees to Canada by the end of the year keeps sliding, according to two officials familiar with aspects of the planning.
> 
> The original goal had been to begin the airlift by Thursday of this week, but as no charter aircraft have been booked yet, it would now be at least one more week before flights got underway, one of the officials said. When the flights reach their peak next month, about 1,000 refugees will be arriving in Canada every day.
> 
> *The officials did not want to be identified because diplomats and immigration officers have been told by Ottawa not to speak about the matter, with all requests referred to the government.*


M'bold.

Two things:

First, the painfully obvious issue of properly vetting 20,000 Syrians who may or may not be legitimate refugees by year end.

Second, what kind of a petty, spineless, insecure, hairdo of a dictator would swear his minions to silence? 

I thought this was 2015...


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness Prime Minister Tumblr has committed himself to an open government. It's pretty shocking to watch the government compromise its own principles so thoroughly within a few days of taking office. Where's the outcry from Liberal supporters who were embracing a "New Canada" just a few weeks ago?



FeXL said:


> Second, what kind of a petty, spineless, insecure, hairdo of a dictator would swear his minions to silence?
> 
> I thought this was 2015...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Where's the outcry from Liberal supporters who were embracing a "New Canada" just a few weeks ago?


They'll be along shortly, with the diversions, obfuscations, red herrings & straw man arguments in hand...


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Smarter than you. Just because you don't understand the game plan doesn't make you right.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice making a personal insult to SINC.  Had you said smarter than the editorial cartoonist that would have been fine, but you didn't. You deliberately insulted SINC for no good reason at all. Is there a game plan that you are privy to that SINC or the rest of us are not?

It seems to me the Libs want(ed) to capitalize on the image body of a boy washed up on a beach... but how many hundreds and thousands have suffered the same fate without one ounce of bleeding heart blood being shed before for political gain?

Arrogant and insulting post fail. You owe SINC an apology IMO.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> *Near as I can figure*, since retaliation has only bred more retaliation over the last 14 years (and much longer, truth be told), resulting in the creation of more terrorists, perhaps showing compassion to Muslims, particularly refugees, might actually create a stronger impression of the West. ISIS/Daesh is really a much smaller organization than it pretends to be—they need to be put in their place. Ground war tactics do not work against this kind of enemy. *Hating Muslims has not worked so far, and it's the typical knee jerk reaction of the Western world.*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right, "near as you can figure". So your own opinion, not a statement of fact or knowledge of a plan.

There is no hating of Muslims just ISIS and their ilk, most Muslims hate ISIS as well. What do you not get about that?

Your understanding of the situation in the Middle East seems to me to be decidedly lacking.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I agree here screature. CM did not bring up Harper first.


It does not mater, CM made the statement


CubaMark said:


> Harper? He's old news.


That is the point that I was addressing. For Christ sake PET is even not "old news" and he is still relevant today due to his policies and legislation that he and his government put into place. As I said:



> Yes you do seem confused, *Harper is not old news at this point, if you think so you are clearly not up to speed with Canadian politics aside from what you read in Mexico.
> 
> Harper's legacy will live on for years and will not be undone by one election just like PET's legacy took decades of undoing.*


Capiche?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> It does not mater, CM made the statement
> 
> That is the point that I was addressing. For Christ sake PET is "old news" and he is still relevant today due to his policies and legislation that he and his government put into place.
> 
> Capiche?


Yep The Harper sure despised PETs Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Despite my overall animosity towards PET, he did get that one right.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Yep The Harper sure despised PETs Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


He didn't despise it he questioned the legality of some parts of it... Even Quebec did as they did not sign. Was PET God in your opinion? Was he infallible? It seems you think so. 

PET merely wanted to feed his ego and push it through so it was part of his "legacy".


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> He didn't despise it he questioned the legality of some parts of it... Even Quebec did as they did not sign. Was PET God in your opinion? Was he infallible? It seems you think so.
> 
> PET merely wanted to feed his ego and push it through so it was part of his "legacy".


Plus no right to own property--perfect for PET.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> It does not mater, CM made the statement
> 
> That is the point that I was addressing. For Christ sake PET is even not "old news" and he is still relevant today due to his policies and legislation that he and his government put into place. As I said:
> 
> 
> Capiche?


....I don't know how to have a conversation with you. It's like talking to that guy who was out of temporal phase in Star Trek: Voyager. (*Correction*: not a guy, it was Kess)

I would not have made the *humorously intended* "old news" comment if you had not brought up Harper in the first place. 

Your response to my original post on the Peterborough arson accused me of making some kind of comment about Harper and the Conservatives. I did not. That's what got this whole confusing thing rolling. 

I think your pro-Conservativeness has made you hyper-sensitive to any comment on Harper (and apparently given you the ability to travel through time).

ehMac is getting really weird these days....


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> ....*I don't know how to have a conversation with you.* It's like talking to that guy who was out of temporal phase in Star Trek: Voyager. (*Correction*: not a guy, it was Kess)
> 
> I would not have made the *humorously intended* "old news" comment if you had not brought up Harper in the first place.
> 
> Your response to my original post on the Peterborough arson accused me of making some kind of comment about Harper and the Conservatives. I did not. That's what got this whole confusing thing rolling.
> 
> I think your pro-Conservativeness has made you hyper-sensitive to any comment on Harper (and apparently given you the ability to travel through time).
> 
> *ehMac is getting really weird these days*....


Well start by not saying "Harper is old news" that would be a beginning.

Travelling through time is what history is all about... it is done all the time.

Not more than usual in my estimation.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Nice making a personal insult to SINC.  Had you said smarter than the editorial cartoonist that would have been fine, but you didn't. You deliberately insulted SINC for no good reason at all. Is there a game plan that you are privy to that SINC or the rest of us are not?
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me the Libs want(ed) to capitalize on the image body of a boy washed up on a beach... but how many hundreds and thousands have suffered the same fate without one ounce of bleeding heart blood being shed before for political gain?
> 
> 
> 
> Arrogant and insulting post fail. You owe SINC an apology IMO.



Nope. The comment was fair given the context. As to the game plan, try to see the big picture: responding to hate groups like ISIS with more hate directed at Muslims in general has not worked well for the past 14 years, when the U.S. and by extension Canada declared a "war on terror" which sounds lofty and noble but is ultimately unwinnable. When are you done? When there are no more terrorists? What if your retaliatory efforts end up creating more terrorists? 

You cannot defeat hate with more hate. Yes, those responsible for he terrorist attacks should hunted down and put to death. Most are already dead because they were suicide missions. But to bomb their villages and homes and kill their loved ones makes us no better than them. In fact, it gives those who were sitting on the fence more reason to want to join ISIS or other organizations. It does nothing to help end the war on terror. There are as many terrorists in the world today as there were on Sept 11, 2001 if not more. The mission failed.

By showing kindness and compassion to Syrian refugees as well as refugees from other parts of the world, especially Muslims, who are far too often the targets of racism here, we can change the conversation and at he same time make ourselves less of a target. If you live your life with an omnipresent fear of Muslims, then I feel sorry for you. I wish you could meet some of the wonderful Muslim people I consider to be friends. 

That's the message that PM Trudeau is trying to send. That's the message that escapes so many conservative, bigoted and mean spirited people. As I said before, just because you don't understand the message doesn't make you right and them wrong. And the strategy IS smarter than those put forward on this board, probably smarter than what is proposed by the other G-20 nations as well. 

That's thinking outside the box. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> ....I don't know how to have a conversation with you. It's like talking to that guy who was out of temporal phase in Star Trek: Voyager. (*Correction*: not a guy, it was Kess)
> 
> 
> 
> I would not have made the *humorously intended* "old news" comment if you had not brought up Harper in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> Your response to my original post on the Peterborough arson accused me of making some kind of comment about Harper and the Conservatives. I did not. That's what got this whole confusing thing rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> I think your pro-Conservativeness has made you hyper-sensitive to any comment on Harper (and apparently given you the ability to travel through time).
> 
> 
> 
> ehMac is getting really weird these days....



I missed that one. Sounds like an interesting episode.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

You cannot negotiate with someone whose initial & final terms are "submit or die".



fjnmusic said:


> You cannot defeat hate with more hate.


FFS & for the last time, Muslim is a religion, not a race...



fjnmusic said:


> ... Muslims, who are far too often the targets of racism here,


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Right, "near as you can figure". So your own opinion, not a statement of fact or knowledge of a plan.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no hating of Muslims just ISIS and their ilk, most Muslims hate ISIS as well. What do you not get about that?
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding of the situation in the Middle East seems to me to be decidedly lacking.



No hate for Muslims, only ISIS and their ilk, eh? Where do you get your "facts" exactly? Perhaps you can explain why a Muslim woman was beaten up by two non-Muslim Canadian men in Toronto for going to pick up her child from school. Time to wake up, Screature. The racism/religionism/hatred is right in front of you. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/17/toronto-canada-muslim-woman-assault


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> You cannot negotiate with someone whose initial & final terms are "submit or die".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FFS & for the last time, Muslim is a religion, not a race...



FFS it might as well be a race, the way people are targeted for having brown skin for the most part an the kind of clothes they wear. FFS there is no real difference here for assaulting someone because of their religion or assaulting someone because of their race. It is unbridled hatred either way. Can you tell someone's religion by looking at them? I know many ignorant Westerners who will persecute a Sikh person because they think he is Muslim. It IS no different than racism. FFS. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Nope. The comment was fair given the context. As to the game plan, try to see the big picture: responding to hate groups like ISIS with more hate directed at Muslims in general has not worked well for the past 14 years, when the U.S. and by extension Canada declared a "war on terror" which sounds lofty and noble but is ultimately unwinnable. When are you done? When there are no more terrorists? What if your retaliatory efforts end up creating more terrorists?
> 
> You cannot defeat hate with more hate. Yes, those responsible for he terrorist attacks should hunted down and put to death. Most are already dead because they were suicide missions. But to bomb their villages and homes and kill their loved ones makes us no better than them. In fact, it gives those who were sitting on the fence more reason to want to join ISIS or other organizations. It does nothing to help end the war on terror. There are as many terrorists in the world today as there were on Sept 11, 2001 if not more. The mission failed.
> 
> By showing kindness and compassion to Syrian refugees as well as refugees from other parts of the world, especially Muslims, who are far too often the targets of racism here, we can change the conversation and at he same time make ourselves less of a target. If you live your life with an omnipresent fear of Muslims, then I feel sorry for you. I wish you could meet some of the wonderful Muslim people I consider to be friends.
> 
> That's the message that PM Trudeau is trying to send. That's the message that escapes so many conservative, bigoted and mean spirited people. As I said before, just because you don't understand the message doesn't make you right and them wrong. And the strategy IS smarter than those put forward on this board, probably smarter than what is proposed by the other G-20 nations as well.
> 
> That's thinking outside the box.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You personally insulated SINC where there was no reason to so period. You want to talk about "mean spirited people" look in the mirror.

I could say more but I am not as insulting as you are.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> No hate for Muslims, only ISIS and their ilk, eh? Where do you get your "facts" exactly? Perhaps you can explain why a Muslim woman was beaten up by two non-Muslim Canadian men in Toronto for going to pick up her child from school. Time to wake up, Screature. The racism/religionism/hatred is right in front of you.
> 
> Assault of Muslim woman in Toronto seems 'motivated by hate', police say | World news | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are so delusional it astounds me... look at the source it does not begin here.

I am sorry for the personal jab, your post offends me, but you do not in general... at least not yet.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Nope. The comment was fair given the context. As to the game plan, try to see the big picture: responding to hate groups like ISIS with more hate directed at Muslims in general has not worked well for the past 14 years, when the U.S. and by extension Canada declared a "war on terror" which sounds lofty and noble but is ultimately unwinnable. When are you done? When there are no more terrorists? What if your retaliatory efforts end up creating more terrorists?


This is such a sad, watered down slurry of "progressive" pablum.



fjnmusic said:


> You cannot defeat hate with more hate.


Of course you can.



fjnmusic said:


> If you live your life with an omnipresent fear of Muslims, then I feel sorry for you. I wish you could meet some of the wonderful Muslim people I consider to be friends.


You know, nobody cares about your nice Muslim friends because WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM! This is so trite it is embarrassing. The equivalent of "Some of my best friends are Muslims." Do you think yur experiences are somehow unique? That none of us know or like Muslims?



fjnmusic said:


> That's the message that PM Trudeau is trying to send. That's the message that escapes so many conservative, bigoted and mean spirited people. As I said before, just because you don't understand the message doesn't make you right and them wrong. And the strategy IS smarter than those put forward on this board, probably smarter than what is proposed by the other G-20 nations as well.


We understand the message. Prime Minister Tumblr is an introverted coward. He's not smarter, just ineffectual.



fjnmusic said:


> That's thinking outside the box.


1982 just called and wants its popular phrases back.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> You personally insulated SINC where there was no reason to so period. You want to talk about "mean spirited people" look in the mirror.
> 
> 
> 
> I could say more but I am not as insulting as you are.



Sorry Don for insulating you.  It was not my intention to attack you personally, hurt your feelings, or insult your intelligence, but Screature seems to be pretty shook up on your behalf, so I offer my apologies. I hope the weather is also treating you as well in St. Albert as it is me in Sherwood Park.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> You are so delusional it astounds me... look at the source it does not begin here.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry for the personal jab, your post offends me, but you do not in general... at least not yet.



Then why call me delusional? Pot, meet kettle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> This is such a sad, watered down slurry of "progressive" pablum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, nobody cares about your nice Muslim friends because WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM! This is so trite it is embarrassing. The equivalent of "Some of my best friends are Muslims." Do you think yur experiences are somehow unique? That none of us know or like Muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We understand the message. Prime Minister Tumblr is an introverted coward. He's not smarter, just ineffectual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1982 just called and wants its popular phrases back.



Where to begin? I honestly don't know. It's hard to believe you and I live in the same country sometimes. Tell me, O wise one, if you can win a "war on terror," why haven't we won already several years ago? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

We've never fought a "war on terror" before. It's mostly been increased surveillance of one's own citizens, zero outreach and random bombings. In America's case it can't even withhold funding from terrorist financiers--note Obama's release of $150 billion to Iran in exchange for allowing it to get a nuclear weapon.



fjnmusic said:


> Where to begin? I honestly don't know. It's hard to believe you and I live in the same country sometimes. Tell me, O wise one, if you can win a "war on terror," why haven't we won already several years ago?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Then why call me delusional? Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes you are correct. Your post seemed delusional to me but I trust that you are not. Mea Culpa.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Where to begin? I honestly don't know. It's hard to believe you and I live in the same country sometimes. Tell me, O wise one, if you can win a "war on terror," why haven't we won already several years ago?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you possibly take out some of the carriage returns before you post?

But to your point... how does taking in 23K refugees before the end of the year help to stop ISIS and the war in Syria and Iraq? The refugees say themselves the only thing that will really help is to end the war.

So what is your plan and JT's plan for doing that?

Not just some blab, blah, blah to win votes but a real plan. Neither you or JT have one, because let's just face it, there is no easy or simple solution... Even though that is how you and your Pretty Boy Leader Prime Minister (PBPM) would like to portray it. 

All the PBPM wanted to do was to win votes with his simplistic and quite frankly next to useless gesture/promise (one that most likely not be met but all too soon be forgotten). It had absolutely nothing to do with ending the suffering that is happening in the Middle East. It was purely an attempt to get some blood out of the bleeding hearts in this country to win an election. 

As PET, PBPM's father said before him, "*Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, but it is more important to keep law and order in this society than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don't like the looks of a soldier's helmet."*

And this is at HOME let alone fighting a war with real terrorists and not some homespun amateur terrorists. PET willy-nily declared the War Measures Act over his own people over what was essentially a crime and not an act of terror as we know it today.

All PBPM wants to do is to pander to bleeding hearts. Even though he was wrong in making the decision he did at least his father had some balls and a mind of his own. What is apparent is that PBPM has neither and it seems PBPM didn't take his father's message to his bleeding heart.


----------



## screature

Strange isn't it how this didn't make the National News....





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Justin got his ass kicked by a real boxer 19 years older than him.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> We've never fought a "war on terror" before. It's mostly been increased surveillance of one's own citizens, zero outreach and random bombings. In America's case it can't even withhold funding from terrorist financiers--note Obama's release of $150 billion to Iran in exchange for allowing it to get a nuclear weapon.



We've never fought a "war on [email protected] before?? Seriously? What do you think Canada had been doing in Afghanistan since 2002? Taking holiday pics? Remember George W Bush and the coalition of the willing? You have one selective memory, my learned friend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Can you possibly take out some of the carriage returns before you post?
> 
> 
> 
> But to your point... how does taking in 23K refugees before the end of the year help to stop ISIS and the war in Syria and Iraq? The refugees say themselves the only thing that will really help is to end the war.
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your plan and JT's plan for doing that?
> 
> 
> 
> Not just some blab, blah, blah to win votes but a real plan. Neither you or JT have one, because let's just face it, there is no easy or simple solution... Even though that is how you and your Pretty Boy Leader Prime Minister (PBPM) would like to portray it.
> 
> 
> 
> All the PBPM wanted to do was to win votes with his simplistic and quite frankly next to useless gesture/promise (one that most likely not be met but all too soon be forgotten). It had absolutely nothing to do with ending the suffering that is happening in the Middle East. It was purely an attempt to get some blood out of the bleeding hearts in this country to win an election.
> 
> 
> 
> As PET, PBPM's father said before him, "*Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, but it is more important to keep law and order in this society than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don't like the looks of a soldier's helmet."*
> 
> 
> 
> And this is at HOME let alone fighting a war with real terrorists and not some homespun amateur terrorists. PET willy-nily declared the War Measures Act over his own people over what was essentially a crime and not an act of terror as we know it today.
> 
> 
> 
> All PBPM wants to do is to pander to bleeding hearts. Even though he was wrong in making the decision he did at least his father had some balls and a mind of his own. What is apparent is that PBPM has neither and it seems PBPM didn't take his father's message to his bleeding heart.



Carriage returns? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

No.



fjnmusic said:


> FFS it might as well be a race...


----------



## SINC

Even Macleans is noticing.

Why Justin Trudeau misses Stephen Harper


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Carriage returns?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you ever look at your posts other than on you iPhone? They look like this:




> Originally Posted by Macfury View Post
> 
> 
> This is such a sad, watered down slurry of "progressive" pablum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, nobody cares about your nice Muslim friends because WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM! This is so trite it is embarrassing. The equivalent of "Some of my best friends are Muslims." Do you think yur experiences are somehow unique? That none of us know or like Muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We understand the message. Prime Minister Tumblr is an introverted coward. He's not smarter, just ineffectual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1982 just called and wants its popular phrases back.


Where to begin? I honestly don't know. It's hard to believe you and I live in the same country sometimes. Tell me, O wise one, if you can win a "war on terror," why haven't we won already several years ago? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Even Macleans is noticing.
> 
> Why Justin Trudeau misses Stephen Harper


Yep and Paul Wells was no fan of Harper, but at least here he provides some balanced perspective.


----------



## smashedbanana

screature said:


> But to your point... how does taking in 23K refugees before the end of the year help to stop ISIS and the war in Syria and Iraq? The refugees say themselves the only thing that will really help is to end the war.
> 
> So what is your plan and JT's plan for doing that?
> 
> Not just some blab, blah, blah to win votes but a real plan. Neither you or JT have one, because let's just face it, there is no easy or simple solution... Even though that is how you and your Pretty Boy Leader Prime Minister (PBPM) would like to portray it.


So on the one hand you believe there can be no solution to ISIS and on the other you are mad because Justin Trudeau hasn't provided you with one? 

Taking refugees is not part of any plan to end ISIS. It's humanitarian and it's Canadian. The vast majority of us wanted this, on now we are getting it. 



> All the PBPM wanted to do was to win votes with his simplistic and quite frankly next to useless gesture/promise (one that most likely not be met but all too soon be forgotten). It had absolutely nothing to do with ending the suffering that is happening in the Middle East. It was purely an attempt to get some blood out of the bleeding hearts in this country to win an election.


Ending ISIS and ending suffering in the middle east can be two separate things, with different potentials for success. Taking refugees certainly address the suffering.



> As PET, PBPM's father said before him, "*Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, but it is more important to keep law and order in this society than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don't like the looks of a soldier's helmet."*
> 
> And this is at HOME let alone fighting a war with real terrorists and not some homespun amateur terrorists. PET willy-nily declared the War Measures Act over his own people over what was essentially a crime and not an act of terror as we know it today.
> 
> All PBPM wants to do is to pander to bleeding hearts. Even though he was wrong in making the decision he did at least his father had some balls and a mind of his own. What is apparent is that PBPM has neither and it seems PBPM didn't take his father's message to his bleeding heart.


PET's actions were related to an act of domestic terrorism here in Canada. You simply cannot equate the two. God forbid, if something ever happens here then even Justin will have no choice but to have the gloves come off. And let's face it we'd let him.

You obviously dislike Justin. But could anyone in the situation he's in do better? He made a promise, his first promise and then the attacks in France happened. No one could have predicted that. What was he supposed to do? Break his first promise, use up all his political capital to show you his balls?


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> The vast majority of us wanted this, on now we are getting it.


I doubt it's the "vast majority" and it makes less sense in light of recent news. A recent Mainstreet poll shows more people dissatisfied than satisfied with the Syrian refugee program:



> When asked about Canada’s response so far to the Canadian refugee crisis, 46% of people said they were disssatisfied while 42% were supportive of the government’s efforts.





smashedbanana said:


> But could anyone in the situation he's in do better?


Yes, of course they could. Stephen Harper, for one.



smashedbanana said:


> What was he supposed to do? Break his first promise, use up all his political capital to show you his balls?


Yes. He would create political capital by "showing us his balls." He has already lost the political goodwill of all but his ardent supporters.


----------



## SINC

smashedbanana said:


> Taking refugees is not part of any plan to end ISIS. It's humanitarian and it's Canadian. The vast majority of us wanted this, on now we are getting it.


Sorry to burst your claim about the 'vast majority of us', BUT . . .

Majority of Canadians oppose Trudeau’s plan to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees over in just six weeks: poll | National Post

Trudeau condemns racism as poll shows refugee plan opposition rising - The Globe and Mail


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Sorry to burst your claim about the 'vast majority of us', BUT . . .
> 
> Majority of Canadians oppose Trudeau’s plan to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees over in just six weeks: poll | National Post
> 
> Trudeau condemns racism as poll shows refugee plan opposition rising - The Globe and Mail


That poll is about the timeline. You'll notice in my post I did not say anything about the timeline. I believe the majority of Canadians do want to see the increased acceptance of refugees, but.. certainly in the wake of Paris we all want it done more securely than quickly.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> That poll is about the timeline. You'll notice in my post I did not say anything about the timeline. I believe the majority of Canadians do want to see the increased acceptance of refugees, but.. certainly in the wake of Paris we all want it done more securely than quickly.


I doubt even that is true. The poll doesn't limit comment to the timeline--just asks whether Canadians approve of the plan.

Besides, we can't accept an endless stream of refugees and we don't have an economy that is robust enough to support that.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> I doubt even that is true. The poll doesn't limit comment to the timeline--just asks whether Canadians approve of the plan.
> 
> Besides, we can't accept an endless stream of refugees and we don't have an economy that is robust enough to support that.


I didn't say I supported Justin's plan. All I said was his promise was in response to the majority Canadians wanting to accept more refugees. His plan's timeline is what the majority of people and polls are having issue with. If you follow the link to the Angus Reid poll the majority of the respondents don't support the plan because of the timeline.

I don't equate that with Canadians saying they don't want to accept more refugees.


----------



## SINC

With the Liberals only garnering 39% of the vote in the last election, one can hardly claim he had the support of the majority of Canadians. He clearly did not. 61% of us did not support his views or vote for him.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Do you ever look at your posts other than on you iPhone? They look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where to begin? I honestly don't know. It's hard to believe you and I live in the same country sometimes. Tell me, O wise one, if you can win a "war on terror," why haven't we won already several years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So what's the problem? I have no carriage return on my phone. If you don't like looking at what I've posted, it's a simple fix: don't read it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Even Macleans is noticing.


Good article.


----------



## BigDL

SINC said:


> With the Liberals only garnering 39% of the vote in the last election, one can hardly claim he had the support of the majority of Canadians. He clearly did not. 61% of us did not support his views or vote for him.


Not vote for him is a correct statement. However the rest of your statement does logically hold water (hold together) old friend.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> With the Liberals only garnering 39% of the vote in the last election, one can hardly claim he had the support of the majority of Canadians. He clearly did not. 61% of us did not support his views or vote for him.


LOL. It's going to be fun to rub that meme right back into lefty's faces for the next four years.

I suspect there will be a lot of liars claiming they never made such a claim.


----------



## smashedbanana

fjnmusic said:


> I have no carriage return on my phone.


You should get one, it puts the carriage right back in the barn for you.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> You should get one, it puts the carriage right back in the barn for you.


That made me laugh for some reason!


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> LOL. It's going to be fun to rub that meme right back into lefty's faces for the next four years.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect there will be a lot of liars claiming they never made such a claim.



It must be fun to find a silver lining when your party loses in a humiliating defeat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

No party lasts forever. Prime Minister Tumblr is already self-destructing.



fjnmusic said:


> It must be fun to find a silver lining when your party loses in a humiliating defeat.


----------



## SINC

European travellers not impressed by Trudeau | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## rgray




----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> LOL. It's going to be fun to rub that meme right back into lefty's faces for the next four years.
> 
> I suspect there will be a lot of liars claiming they never made such a claim.


Have your fun, please don't stretch the truth. The vote is a fact but without further evidence the rest of SINC's statement is not logical. 

Did you have fun today?


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> So what's the problem? I have no carriage return on my phone. If you don't like looking at what I've posted, it's a simple fix: don't read it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lmao: You in the past complained about my punctuation and where I began and ended a paragraph, now that it is the same for you you all you cab say is "it isn't my fault... Too rich.

But a very obvious diversion as to what was the real content of my post, **** you usually do.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

$500k federal ad campaign to tout refugee plan as a ‘national project,’ document reveals



> *The Liberal government, elected on platform that pledged to ban partisan advertising, is set to launch a $500,000 digital ad campaign* to boost public support for its plan to bring in 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of the year, according to a strategic plan document obtained by the National Post.


Because breaking a pledge isn't the same as breaking a promise (h/t SDA)

Yeah, 'cause that's the biggest issue:



> It highlights a number of obstacles that will need to be navigated to win over public opinion, warning that if government-sponsored refugees jump to the front of the queue ahead of privately sponsored applicants who have been waiting for a long time, it could produce a backlash.


Oh, they actually mention it:



> The document underlines the dramatic nature of the task the Liberals have set the bureaucracy. *Canada usually takes in around 10,000 refugees a year, with average processing times of around 10 months for government-sponsored applications from the Middle East.*


All bold mine.


----------



## screature

smashedbanana said:


> *So on the one hand you believe there can be no solution to ISIS *and on the other you are mad because Justin Trudeau hasn't provided you with one?
> 
> *Taking refugees is not part of any plan to end ISIS.* It's humanitarian and it's Canadian. *The vast majority of us wanted this, on now we are getting it. *
> 
> *Ending ISIS and ending suffering in the middle east can be two separate things, with different potentials for success. Taking refugees certainly address the suffering.*
> 
> PET's actions were related to an act of domestic terrorism here in Canada. You simply cannot equate the two. God forbid, if something ever happens here then even Justin will have no choice but to have the gloves come off.* And let's face it we'd let him.*
> 
> You obviously dislike Justin. But could anyone in the situation he's in do better? He made a promise, his first promise and then the attacks in France happened. No one could have predicted that. What was he supposed to do? Break his first promise, use up all his political capital to show you his balls?



BS I never said there was NO solution just no easy or simple solution, please do read and comprehend.

Exactly it is not. 23K refugees is a drop in the bucket and a political gesture not a humanitarian one.

:lmao: Unlikely.

No the vast majority of Canadians agreed with Harper's prudent plan... check you facts rather than making them up out of thin air.

Not according to the refugees themselves, they say the only way to end the suffering is to end the war.

I do dislike PBPM.. His promise was pure pandering for votes during an election. Now that his is in power let us see what a real difference he might make. I suspect it is little to none.


----------



## FeXL

'Cause my tax dollars aren't being frittered away enough yet...

Canadian Government Liable for Damages from Syrian Refugees?



> If one of the 25,000 Syrian refugees now due to arrive in Canada commits a violent criminal act or an act of terrorism, can the Government of Canada be sued for negligence? *Canadian citizens who suffer harm from un-screened refugees may have a case for damages.*


Interesting read.


----------



## SINC

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/opin...time-to-give-credit-where-it-is-due-goar.html


----------



## CubaMark

*Why is it so damn hard for a country like Canada, with a strong maritime history, to build a damn ship or two?*










*Davie interim supply ship $700M deal delayed by Liberals*

The new Liberal government is delaying approval of a deal to convert a civilian cargo ship into a badly needed military supply vessel, leading to concerns the plan will soon be scuttled and the navy will be left unable to properly defend Canada or deploy its force abroad.

Shipbuilder Chantier Davie had proposed a new-for-Canada plan to buy a cargo ship and turn it into an interim supply vessel able to support a Canadian naval task group at sea by providing fuel, food and ammunition.

The government signed a letter of intent earlier this year, and in October finalized a roughly $700-million, seven-year contract with Davie. The deal was dependent on cabinet approval, expected to flow out of a cabinet committee's meeting this week.

But CBC News has learned that on Thursday, the committee has delayed deciding on the deal for at least two months, provoking anger inside some corners of the shipbuilding industry and fears inside the navy.

There is also an economic consequence to the decision to delay. 

The letter of intent signed by the government offers Davie $89-million if the finalized contract is not signed by Nov. 30.

Davie has already bought the ship and has brought it to its yard on the St. Lawrence River near Quebec City.

* * *​
Davie created the idea of the interim supply ship deal in 2014 and pitched unsolicited to government.
Several sources say the idea was viewed with suspicion by bureaucrats inside the government's shipbuilding offices who worried the proposal would undermine or threaten the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.

The Irving and Seaspan yards subsequently offered their own interim proposals, leading to the bizarre situation of NSPS shipyards offering to build an interim supply ship for Canada that was only necessary because the NSPS program had yet to deliver supply ships.

Whatever those yards offered, the Davie deal appeared to win the Conservative government's favour.

* * *​
Emails to several Irving staff went unanswered Thursday.

The Davie deal is, indeed, a sole-source arrangement as Irving complained. But cabinet was told Thursday the deal had won an exemption to the government's contracting regulations and that there was little risk it could be successfully challenged.​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

We need to get those people who built the new Bluenose involved...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> We need to get those people who built the new Bluenose involved...


:greedy:


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> :lmao: You in the past complained about my punctuation and where I began and ended a paragraph, now that it is the same for you you all you cab say is "it isn't my fault... Too rich.
> 
> 
> 
> But a very obvious diversion as to what was the real content of my post, **** you usually do.



All I cab say is I have no idea what you're talking about. Everything looks normal on my screen. And I'm quite particular about formatting. 

"**** I usually do"? That sounds pretty racist. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## smashedbanana

screature said:


> BS I never said there was NO solution just no easy or simple solution, please do read and comprehend.
> 
> Exactly it is not. 23K refugees is a drop in the bucket and a political gesture not a humanitarian one.
> 
> :lmao: Unlikely.
> 
> No the vast majority of Canadians agreed with Harper's prudent plan... check you facts rather than making them up out of thin air.
> 
> Not according to the refugees themselves, they say the only way to end the suffering is to end the war.
> 
> I do dislike PBPM.. His promise was pure pandering for votes during an election. Now that his is in power let us see what a real difference he might make. I suspect it is little to none.


I can read fine asshole.

I can also comprehend fine too. 

I remarked that you on the one hand say where's Justin's plan and then in the next breath say there is no easy solution. So if there is no easy solution what's your expectation? That's my point, think about it. 

The only way to end the suffering *permanently* is to end the war. But in the meantime accepting refugees certainly ends *some * people's suffering. Unless that is those refugees become your neighbors. Those poor bastards.

I never said anything about Harper's plan.
I never even said I supported Justin's plan.

All I said is the majority of Canadians favoured accepting more refugees. There were tons of polls and op eds starting a year ago, and especially around the time that little boy washed up on shore. I'll let you google it. Why don't you go ahead and try before saying I'm making up stuff. Maybe further to that you can use some common sense and ask why did Justin make it a campaign promise. I know your angry right-brain wants to yell out "pandering!!", but maybe you could be objective and use some left-brain thinking. 

Too bad for you that you've resigned yourself to the thought that Justin is a right-off. A couple of weeks in, I guess you gave it the real college try eh? That's says more about you than anything else.


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

.


----------



## SINC

..


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Refugees arrive Dec. 1: Report 



> The Liberal government plans to process as many as 900 Syrian refugees a day - starting Dec. 1 - a shocking new report reveals.
> 
> ...
> 
> *That's 6,300 refugees a week.* They'll be identified by the United Nations and screened by CSIS and the CBSA using biometric data and fingerprints.
> 
> *If they pass health and safety checks*, they'll become permanent residents.


So, let's do some math...

6300 refugees per week/(8 hours per day * 5 days per week * 60 minutes per hour)=*2.625 refugees per minute*. And that number goes up if one of our precious immigration officers decides that a bathroom break may be in order. I wish the border crossings were that fast. You wouldn't even have to slow down at the window...

I know, I know. At least some of them are going to be shipped out to military bases after they've been fingerprinted & identified. However, and I'm just spitballing here, what happens if, say, one or more of them decide to take a walk to the big city & never return?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> 6300 refugees per week/(8 hours per day * 5 days per week * 60 minutes per hour)=*2.625 refugees per minute*. And that number goes up if one of our precious immigration officers decides that a bathroom break may be in order.


It's a sad, sad world when people are so fearful of the 'other' and don't take the time to educate themselves before opening the pie-hole on the internet.


----------



## CubaMark

And Pearson airport, in case you were unaware, handles upwards of 100,000 travellers daily - and that's without the extra staff that will be put in place to specifically handle incoming Syrian refugees.


----------



## Rps

Again, fear wins over reason. Right now the government is looking for a political solution to their election campaign. Mr. Trudeau will simply bring in the refugees that have been pre-screened and have been hitting in waiting zones for the last 3 years....or in other words, those Mr. Harper's government qued and stalled. The real question is how will we house, clothe, feed, and educate them. We know that Windsor will get a fair number. We also have one of the nation's highest unemployment rates, and drain on social services. That is my concern, are we swapping one internment camp for another?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> It's a sad, sad world when people are so fearful of the 'other' and don't take the time to educate themselves before opening the pie-hole on the internet.


Legitimate concern is never fear. The process you show is well understood and not sufficient in this case. So shut your own damned pie hole.


----------



## Macfury

Canada cannot continue to afford to settle people it neither needs nor wants.



Rps said:


> Again, fear wins over reason. Right now the government is looking for a political solution to their election campaign. Mr. Trudeau will simply bring in the refugees that have been pre-screened and have been hitting in waiting zones for the last 3 years....or in other words, those Mr. Harper's government qued and stalled. The real question is how will we house, clothe, feed, and educate them. We know that Windsor will get a fair number. We also have one of the nation's highest unemployment rates, and drain on social services. That is my concern, are we swapping one internment camp for another?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The process you show is well understood and not sufficient in this case.


Support your claim. How are these multiple levels of screening by a number of security agencies "not sufficient"?

It's not true just because you say it is.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Canada cannot continue to afford to settle people it neither needs nor wants.


If that is true, then Canada should withdraw from the 1951 Refugee Convention (which we signed 18 years after it was adopted by the United Nations, in 1969).

Good luck with your petition.


----------



## Macfury

There are no paper trails or relevant documentation for this group.



CubaMark said:


> Support your claim. How are these multiple levels of screening by a number of security agencies "not sufficient"?
> 
> It's not true just because you say it is.


----------



## Macfury

Canada can't afford it. How does that reflect on a convention that binds the country to no firm targets? You're talking through your hat again.




CubaMark said:


> If that is true, then Canada should withdraw from the 1951 Refugee Convention (which we signed 18 years after it was adopted by the United Nations, in 1969).
> 
> Good luck with your petition.


----------



## FeXL

First off, CM, f**k you. You had a chance to be civil in a response to me & you blew it. Don't expect much due consideration in the near future. Reap what you sow...

Second, if you think for one minute that anybody on this planet should be comfortable with any recommendation from any branch of the UN, you've got one foot in the loony bin.

Third, can you absolutely, positively, 100% guarantee that each & every refugee will go through the process you listed? 'Cause it seems to me that there's an awful lot of steps missing for the proposed group before "Arrival in Canada", eg., How is it that the Harper gov't took months to approve a refugee's status yet Justin can do the same in a matter of weeks?



CubaMark said:


> It's a sad, sad world when people are so fearful of the 'other' and don't take the time to educate themselves before opening the pie-hole on the internet.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> There are no paper trails or relevant documentation for this group.


I suspect it's better than a paper trail - we have something these days called _computers_, so things are digitized. Databases. Instant-access, with files shared by UNHCR, Interpol, CSIS, etc.

Where is your evidence that there is no 'paper trail' of these refugees?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> First off, CM, f**k you. You had a chance to be civil in a response to me & you blew it. Don't expect much due consideration in the near future. Reap what you sow...


I've tried to be civil to you. It's impossible. While I may have slipped on occasion, you have a demonstrated pattern of assholery on display here. My conscience is clean.



FeXL said:


> Second, if you think for one minute that anybody on this planet should be comfortable with any recommendation from any branch of the UN, you've got one foot in the loony bin.


There we go - another in the right-wing loony checklist, irrational hatred for anything to do with the United Nations. I suppose you're also a member of the nighttime "Black Helicopter" watch, to head off the impending UN invasion of 'murica?



FeXL said:


> Third, can you absolutely, positively, 100% guarantee that each & every refugee will go through the process you listed? 'Cause it seems to me that there's an awful lot of steps missing for the proposed group before "Arrival in Canada",


You'll need to explain what you mean by "steps missing". Christ, after all the harping and shrieks of terror from the Fearful Right, this group of refugees is going to be scrutinized to a degree that no refugees have ever been examined before in history! 

"Seems to me" is not a basis for any sort of coherent argument. You cannot express your "belief" (aka 'fear') as anything close to what the rest of us call 'facts'. I am quite confident that every refugee that Canada accepts will have a pretty lengthy 'paper trail' as MF calls it, from a variety of security organizations that have vetted them before landing at Pearson airport. 

Or do you think some Syrian muslim jihadist serial killer from the wrong side of the tracks in Damascus will somehow, magically, appear in the queue for the CBSA and then through wit, charm or subterfuge manage to convince that officer that he should be allowed to waltz into the Arrivals area?

Is this dementia or are you simply demented?



FeXL said:


> ...eg., How is it that the Harper gov't took months to approve a refugee's status yet Justin can do the same in a matter of weeks?


Some might say that it lies in an ideological reluctance to accept them... much like the one you have shown in this thread.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I've tried to be civil to you. It's impossible. While I may have slipped on occasion, you have a demonstrated pattern of assholery on display here. *My conscience is clean.*


Spewed a coffee there!



CubaMark said:


> There we go - another in the right-wing loony checklist, irrational hatred for anything to do with the United Nations. I suppose you're also a member of the nighttime "Black Helicopter" watch, to head off the impending UN invasion of 'murica?


The United Nations is more corrupt than most governments. Why do you have to be a doink about it and talk foolishness about black helicopters?




CubaMark said:


> ...this group of refugees is going to be scrutinized to a degree that no refugees have ever been examined before in history!


Is that a promise?




CubaMark said:


> "Seems to me" is not a basis for any sort of coherent argument. You cannot express your "belief" (aka 'fear') as anything close to what the rest of us call 'facts'. I am quite confident that every refugee that Canada accepts will have a pretty lengthy 'paper trail' as MF calls it, from a variety of security organizations that have vetted them before landing at Pearson airport.


The very same group:




> The Administration constantly assures us there will be an exhaustive security screening process for Syrian refugees.
> 
> President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and other Democrats have taken to openly mocking anyone with the slightest doubt that every last one of these refugees will be carefully examined by the same genius government that brought you HealthCareDotGov, the OPM hack, the V.A. disaster, and a seemingly endless string of Secret Service scandals, overseen by the President who thought al-Qaeda was dead and ISIS was its “junior varsity team.”
> 
> Rest assured, these refugees will be examined as thoroughly as the psychopath who was allowed to get on stage with Obama in South Africa and pretend to be interpreting the President’s remarks for the hearing-impaired. They’ll be managed as carefully as the thousands of illegal alien criminals Obama turned loose on the streets during Shutdown Theater.
> 
> The Obama Administration, to put it mildly, does not have a record of competence on any issue that would inspire blind faith in their ability to handle tens of thousands of refugees from a war-torn region with few reliable records. More specifically, Obama has a demonstrated track record of putting political considerations, and his own ego, above all other considerations. He will never admit to any mistakes made during his Syrian migration plan, he’ll use every resource at his disposal to conceal anything that goes wrong, and he’ll make sure no one responsible for errors or abuses is punished.
> 
> *
> The director of Homeland Security had no answer when asked if the “vetting” process amounted to anything more than asking refugees to fill out an application, asking them a few questions in a verbal interview, and assuming they answer honestly.
> *
> *
> FBI Director James Comey famously admitted last month that the U.S. government has no real way to conduct background checks on refugees. “We can only query against that which we have collected. And so if someone has never made a ripple in the pond in Syria in a way that would get their identity or their interest reflected in our database, we can query our database until the cows come home, but there will be nothing show up because we have no record of them,” Comey explained, quite sensibly.*



No Good Answers About the Allegedly 'Exhaustive' Syrian Refugee Vetting Process - Breitbart


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Spewed a coffee there!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The United Nations is more corrupt than most governments. Why do you have to be a doink about it and talk foolishness about black helicopters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a promise?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The very same group:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Good Answers About the Allegedly 'Exhaustive' Syrian Refugee Vetting Process - Breitbart



Snappy comebacks do not a mature conversation make. You can do better, Macfury. We all can. It would be nice if these conversations were about more than the left trying to prove the right wrong an vice-versa. Just saying. I haven't really been following the screening of refugees conversation much recently because I guess I lost interest. 

What I can say is I think PM Tumblr's approach may just be the refreshing non-knee jerk reaction that the world needs. Bombing the crap out of Syria just kills more innocents and provides a rationalization for more people to turn to organizations like ISIS.

In an ugly twist, I can across an image of a man holding another man's head by his hair. Just the head. Decapitated. In my Facebook feed. Where anyone, even a child, could see it. Not special effects. Where the victim's family could also see it. 

I reported the image to Facebook. The response I got was that they had reviewed the image and didn't feel it violated their community standards. Yup, welcome to 2015. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## FeXL

No, you haven't. You openly admit to being a hypocrite in that department.



CubaMark said:


> I've tried to be civil to you.


Your character flaws are yours alone.



CubaMark said:


> It's impossible.


12 times in one month is not a slip. It's an epidemic.



CubaMark said:


> While I may have slipped on occasion,...


I give what I get. You're an asshole to me, you get it right back. Cause, meet effect.



CubaMark said:


> ...you have a demonstrated pattern of assholery on display here.


Of course it is. No surprise that a progressive can completely rationalize away being an asshole all the while accusing someone else of the same.



CubaMark said:


> My conscience is clean.


Ad hominems, red herrings, straw man arguments, nothing...



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah, blah


Oh, and I wanted to commend you on the wonderful progress you've made here...



CubaMark said:


> At least I want to be a better person....


----------



## SINC

The Liberals deficit claim doesn't add up

Are the Fiberals living up to their nickname?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Are the Fiberals living up to their nickname?


Don't you mean the Lieberals?


----------



## FeXL

So, the US has admitted they can't track terrorists posing as refugees. In the article below, the EU border agency admits they didn't even attempt to try until a few days ago (meaning there are already some in the system, case in point, Paris) & they don't have access to the information anyway.

EU border agency warned of migrant terror threat 18 months ago - but nothing was done

However, we in Canuckistan are s'posed to trust the UN & CSIS that everything is going to be just peachy? 

Don't you think that if CSIS & the UN had access to any further actionable intelligence than the US & EU they'd share it with them? In the complete absence of any headlines anywhere along the lines of "Fresh Canadian Intelligence Enables Easy ISIS Identification" then it's a pretty safe assumption that we got nuttin', either.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Snappy comebacks do not a mature conversation make. You can do better, Macfury.


Read the final link. Real enough for you?


----------



## FeXL

What's this? 

Ontario reservists offered refugee security duty



> Canadian Armed Forces reservists in Ontario are being offered the task of providing security at camps, bases and other installations where thousands of Syrian refugees will soon be temporarily housed.


Question 1: If these refugees have already been vetted/cleared/verified/whatever _before_ they get here (_as has been clearly outlined and in a specific order_), why do we need reservists, possibly armed, to guard them? Must be to protect them from the great unwashed, no?

More:



> One major concern, the parent said, is *the government will have to do some of the health and security screening after refugees arrive in Canada* in order to meet its Jan. 1 deadline.


Emphasis mine.

Huh? Suddenly, much clearer.

Question 2: Rhetorical...

Further:



> But the parent wonders what will be done to prevent refugees from slipping out of a de-commissioned hospital and disappearing into a city.


Question 3: See question 2...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Question 1: If these refugees have already been vetted/cleared/verified/whatever _before_ they get here (_as has been clearly outlined and in a specific order_), why do we need reservists, possibly armed, to guard them?


Sigh. Are there police protecting your community? Do they have weapons? With live ammunition?  Ah! So you must be a dangerous individual, and we must keep an eye on you! 

That Toronto Sun article is so typical. "I'm not racist, 'just sayin'..." is what it boils down to, which is code for "I'm going to say something prejudicial but I don't want to be criticized for it". An "anonymous parent". Fine. But as has been shown here in ehMac, there's no shortage of uninformed / prejudiced / ideology-guided people willing to mouth off about the Syrian refugee situation. How wonderful of the Sun to give them a bullhorn.

I could spend an hour deconstructing the bull**** in that article... "escape from a decommissioned hospital" - what the hell does that even mean? Just throwing out fears and conjectures to stir up the ignorant.


----------



## FeXL

Yes. Hopefully from Islamists...



CubaMark said:


> Sigh. Are there police protecting your community?


----------



## screature

beejacon


fjnmusic said:


> All I cab say is I have no idea what you're talking about. Everything looks normal on my screen. And I'm quite particular about formatting.
> 
> "**** I usually do"? That sounds pretty racist.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmm, typing errors, are racist I don't quite follow. If cab is a racist slur it is news to me.


----------



## screature

smashedbanana said:


> I can read fine asshole.
> 
> I can also comprehend fine too.
> 
> I remarked that you on the one hand say where's Justin's plan and then in the next breath say there is no easy solution. So if there is no easy solution what's your expectation? That's my point, think about it.
> 
> The only way to end the suffering *permanently* is to end the war. But in the meantime accepting refugees certainly ends *some * people's suffering. Unless that is those refugees become your neighbors. Those poor bastards.
> 
> I never said anything about Harper's plan.
> I never even said I supported Justin's plan.
> 
> All I said is the majority of Canadians favoured accepting more refugees. There were tons of polls and op eds starting a year ago, and especially around the time that little boy washed up on shore. I'll let you google it. Why don't you go ahead and try before saying I'm making up stuff. Maybe further to that you can use some common sense and ask why did Justin make it a campaign promise. I know your angry right-brain wants to yell out "pandering!!", but maybe you could be objective and use some left-brain thinking.
> 
> Too bad for you that you've resigned yourself to the thought that Justin is a right-off. A couple of weeks in, I guess you gave it the real college try eh? That's says more about you than anything else.


Asshole? it that you skippy?

My expectation is a *military and humanitarian response*, now you think about it and get over yourself and your self righteous banter. 

No. You are wrong the majority of Canadians accepted Harper's plan... I will let you Google it.

Who exactly is the one being angry here? It sure isn't me. You always post nothing but negative comments. BPPM made it a campaign issue only after the little boy washed up up on a beach... How many hundreds and thousands proceeded him, where was he then? PBPM was cynically opportunistically playing to bleeding heart strings. It was far from being an issue that decided the election.

Harper had said all along it is not an either or proposition, PBPM said that and made it that way. Two weeks in and he is already an embarrassment on the international stage.


----------



## FeXL

And look who shows up...



CubaMark said:


> Just throwing out fears and conjectures to stir up the ignorant.


----------



## smashedbanana

screature said:


> Asshole? it that you skippy?


No. I am my own person and if you choose to talk to me like that I will call you on it.




> My expectation is a *military and humanitarian response*, now you think about it and get over yourself and your self righteous banter.


Take a look at a good video of the state of the war. Please enlighten me on how what Military response would succeed:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgi9tz3IZWQ[/ame] 

And you yourself said that 25000 refugees is political pandering. So I'm not sure where you are going with that. Seems humanitarian to me. You are all over the map on that one.



> No. You are wrong the majority of Canadians accepted Harper's plan... I will let you Google it.


You aren't even reading what I am saying. All I said is Canadians favored accepting more refugees. Harper's plan still included bringing in refugees, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. He even said they'd increase their (the if-elected conservative government) numbers.



> Who exactly is the one being angry here? It sure isn't me. You always post nothing but negative comments. BPPM made it a campaign issue only after the little boy washed up up on a beach... How many hundreds and thousands proceeded him, where was he then? PBPM was cynically opportunistically playing to bleeding heart strings. It was far from being an issue that decided the election.


I surely do not only post negative comments. I actually post very little. I read probably 10x or 12x easily the number of posts I make. Whereas you post and edit all the time.



> Harper had said all along it is not an either or proposition, PBPM said that and made it that way. Two weeks in and he is already an embarrassment on the international stage.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Again, fear wins over reason. Right now the government is looking for a political solution to their election campaign. Mr. Trudeau will simply bring in the refugees that have been pre-screened and have been hitting in waiting zones for the last 3 years....or in other words, those Mr. Harper's government qued and stalled. The real question is how will we house, clothe, feed, and educate them. We know that Windsor will get a fair number. We also have one of the nation's highest unemployment rates, and drain on social services. T*hat is my concern, are we swapping one internment camp for another?*


Exactly... thank goodness for the likes of you on this Forum Rps. I may not always argee with you but always appreciate your point of view and what you have to say. Not only the intellect behind your thoughts but also for the manner in which you present them, you are almost always very diplomatic. Something I could definitely learn from in a public forum.

I say all manner of things here in a way that I would not say to a person face to face... probably because I would never have a person call me an asshole to my face without expecting a punch to the nose in return... 

So when they are just words coming from people who don't know anything you and you address them in kind with the same level of respect that they granted you (over a period of time) I have little to no problem addressing them with he same kind of respect they give to me.

I know I need to do better and your posts provide a good example...

I just saw that smashedbanana just posted, I expect it is to me because he seems to post to no one else... I will try to do my best.


----------



## screature

smashedbanana said:


> No. I am my own person and if you choose to talk to me like that I will call you on it.
> 
> Take a look at a good video of the state of the war. P*lease enlighten me on how what Military response would succeed:*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgi9tz3IZWQ
> 
> And you yourself said that *25000 refugees is political pandering.* So I'm not sure where you are going with that. Seems humanitarian to me. You are all over the map on that one
> 
> You aren't even reading what I am saying. *All I said is Canadians favored accepting more refugees.* Harper's plan still included bringing in refugees, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. He even said they'd increase their (the if-elected conservative government) numbers.
> 
> *I surely do not only post negative comments. I actually post very little. I read probably 10x or 12x easily the number of posts I make. Whereas you post and edit all the time*.


I don't know, I never pretended to know but I certainly know humanitarian aid alone will not end the war, that is what PBPM would like Canadians to think when it simply is feeble minded. One thing is for for sure is that Putin has to go before the war will end and Iran has to get out of the picture as well.

If you want to talk about how to end a war, look at at the history of humankind. There are the victors and the vanquished. That is how a war ends.

It certainly is, it is only 5000 more than what Harper committed to after due diligence with a different time frame. Look at what the experts are saying now, 25000 before the end of the year is nearly impossible, but it makes for a good sound bite during an election campaign and only one one that will only come to bite you in the ass should you actually win.

No they absolutely did not, that is not true.

Ok maybe not, fair enough, but you have never made a positive post to me, or anyone else who may happen to disagree with you. 

That is true. If you have anything to say other than an obvious fact please state it plainly and politely. If all you meant was to state an obvious fact then fine.

Have a good night.


----------



## smashedbanana

screature said:


> I don't know, I never pretended to know but I certainly know humanitarian aid alone will not end the war, that is what PBPM would like Canadians to think when it simply is feeble minded. One thing is for for sure is that Putin has to go before the war will end and Iran has to get out of the picture as well.
> 
> If you want to talk about how to end a war, look at at the history of humankind. There are the victors and the vanquished. That is how a war ends.
> 
> It certainly is, it is only 5000 more than what Harper committed to after due diligence with a different time frame. Look at what the experts are saying now, 25000 before the end of the year is nearly impossible, but it makes for a good sound bite during an election campaign and only one one that will only come to bite you in the ass should you actually win.
> 
> No they absolutely did not, that is not true.
> 
> Ok maybe not, fair enough, but you have never made a positive post to me, or anyone else who may happen to disagree with you.
> 
> That is true. If you have anything to say other than an obvious fact please state it plainly and politely. If all you meant was to state an obvious fact then fine.
> 
> Have a good night.


Screature,

First and foremost good on you for trying to present yourself better.

I hope it holds (seriously).

If you want to answer any of my posts the way you are doing now, I am more than happy to respond in kind(ness).

Firstly, you need to watch that video.

Syria is a mess and the reality we may need to face is it is unwinnable, or it is not in Canada’s best interest to be there militarily. I make this point in relation to what you said that you expected a military solution to end the suffering from Trudeau. I’m not looking to become his spokesperson, but perhaps some more careful, sober second thought is prudent. I mean if we looked to our more recent history we might well have been in Iraq if the conservatives had been in government at the time.

WWII is not a good comparison for many reasons. Most of all war is not fought that way anymore. I can elaborate but it would be better to say we need to look at more recent conflicts. 

The conservatives made a promise to accelerate the acceptance of 10000 Syrians within a year of the announcement on September 19th. To me that meant more in the long run. Maybe they would have stopped accepting refugees in 2016. In which case, sure no additional refugees, you would be correct. But I believe the crisis will still be going well into 2016 and beyond. Time will tell.

I agree 100% my posts to you negative. But to be fair you have only ever been condescending to me. If you want to talk respectfully, I will absolutely follow your lead.

My comment about the number of posts and edits you make is something you should consider. Slow down, read a little, maybe wait to post something so that you don’t have to edit it 2-3 times.

The difference (to me) between confidence and arrogance is whether or not you really consider what the other person is saying before you answer.

Ed


----------



## Macfury

We are all aware, are we not, that the kid who washed up on the beach was the victim of his father's efforts to get free dentures? The family had been living in Turkey for years. It is not remotely relevant to Syrian refugees:



> 'The facts remain that that terrible image was not brought about by recent events in Syria or Iraq. That boy and his family had lived in Turkey for three years.
> 
> 'The money for that boy's father to pay the people smugglers was sent from Canada. The father sent them on that boat so the father could get dental treatment.'


Liberal senator Cory Bernardi says drowned Syrian boy Aylan Kurdi wasn't a real refugee | Daily Mail Online


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> beejacon
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, typing errors, are racist I don't quite follow. If cab is a racist slur it is news to me.



****, not cab.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

^

Isn't it odd now that the Conservatives were defeated, the MSM don't seem to be so interested in splashing the coverage of this trial all over newscasts and print? One now has to look to even find details.


----------



## DEWLine

CBC and iPolitics are still covering the trial.


----------



## screature

smashedbanana said:


> Screature,
> 
> First and foremost good on you for trying to present yourself better.
> 
> I hope it holds (seriously).
> 
> If you want to answer any of my posts the way you are doing now, I am more than happy to respond in kind(ness).
> 
> Firstly, you need to watch that video.
> 
> Syria is a mess and the reality we may need to face is it is unwinnable, or it is not in Canada’s best interest to be there militarily. I make this point in relation to what you said that you expected a military solution to end the suffering from Trudeau. I’m not looking to become his spokesperson, but perhaps some more careful, sober second thought is prudent. I mean if we looked to our more recent history we might well have been in Iraq if the conservatives had been in government at the time.
> 
> WWII is not a good comparison for many reasons. Most of all war is not fought that way anymore. I can elaborate but it would be better to say we need to look at more recent conflicts.
> 
> The conservatives made a promise to accelerate the acceptance of 10000 Syrians within a year of the announcement on September 19th. To me that meant more in the long run. Maybe they would have stopped accepting refugees in 2016. In which case, sure no additional refugees, you would be correct. But I believe the crisis will still be going well into 2016 and beyond. Time will tell.
> 
> I agree 100% my posts to you negative. But to be fair you have only ever been condescending to me. If you want to talk respectfully, I will absolutely follow your lead.
> 
> My comment about the number of posts and edits you make is something you should consider. Slow down, read a little, maybe wait to post something so that you don’t have to edit it 2-3 times.
> 
> The difference (to me) between confidence and arrogance is whether or not you really consider what the other person is saying before you answer.
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed, good considerate post, maybe this can be the beginning of a new manner of posting between us.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> We are all aware, are we not, that the kid who washed up on the beach was the victim of his father's efforts to get free dentures?


It doesn't matter. It fit the progressive & MSM (but I repeat myself) meme at the time. The unfortunate truth is the damage is done & no amount of actual _facts_ afterwards will counter that.


----------



## FeXL

My tax dollars at work...

Your Moral and Intellectual Superiors

Hint: if you can't figger the error without reading the first comment, you're part of the problem...


----------



## CubaMark

DEWLine said:


> CBC and iPolitics are still covering the trial.


Yeah, but there are folks in here who have stated they won't even click on a link if it leads to a CBC news story, because of "bias". I call it "willfully ignorant".


----------



## Macfury

SINC rightly pointed out that the Duffy coverage is now muted instead of headline stuff, regardless of where it is being covered.


----------



## screature

DEWLine said:


> CBC and iPolitics are still covering the trial.


They definitely are as they are following any story that might generate headlines... that is the *business* of journalism. I think we all know that.

Journalism is not like it used to be where the crushing matters of the day made headlines.

Today it is all tabloid stuff whether or not it really matters.

This is the same as it has been since the dawn of age of of the internet.

Nothing new here...

Slow news day, post old news, same as it always was...


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it odd now that the Conservatives were defeated, the MSM don't seem to be so interested in splashing the coverage of this trial all over newscasts and print? One now has to look to even find details.



Harper's been defeated; hardly urgent news anymore. Surely you didn't think people really cared about Duffy himself, did you? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

For the second time today, I'm going to flank you. Once gain, you look but do not see. You read but do not comprehend. I call that wilfully stupid.

That they are biased is a given. All of MSM is. And, they do not have the exclusive on anything. If a news item is linked to CBC, it can be found on dozens of other paces on the intertoobs that don't offend my tender sensibilities when I visit &, generally speaking, with less bias.

I don't visit CBC links because I'm not interested in giving them even the slightest bit of encouragement, support, endorsement, ad revenue, clicks, whatever... 



CubaMark said:


> Yeah, but there are folks in here who have stated they won't even click on a link if it leads to a CBC news story, because of "bias". I call it "willfully ignorant".


----------



## FeXL

What's the thrust here? Duffy coverage was only important because it could be hung on Harper somehow?

I find that confession not only stunning but despicable...



fjnmusic said:


> Surely you didn't think people really cared about Duffy himself, did you?


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> What's the thrust here? Duffy coverage was only important because it could be hung on Harper somehow?
> 
> 
> 
> I find that confession not only stunning but despicable...



Not a confession. It's the truth. How else do you explain the lack of interest now by the people in general, not just the press? We KNOW government people waste money. It would be a bigger surprise if they didn't. What was interesting about this scandal is that it could be linked back to the PMO's office. Old PM's gone? Yesterday's news. I'm amazed at how much you underestimated people's dislike for Harper. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

You really are the lowest type of political animal then.



fjnmusic said:


> Not a confession. It's the truth. How else do you explain the lack of interest now by the people in general, not just the press? We KNOW government people waste money. It would be a bigger surprise if they didn't. What was interesting about this scandal is that it could be linked back to the PMO's office. Old PM's gone? Yesterday's news. I'm amazed at how much you underestimated people's dislike for Harper.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You really are the lowest type of political animal then.



Me and the rest of the country. I'm surprised that you're surprised that it was never about Mike Duffy. I gave you too much credit for political awareness it seems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rgray




----------



## rgray




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## rgray




----------



## FeXL

I''m amazed at the depth progressives will plumb in order to further the "cause"...



fjnmusic said:


> I'm amazed at how much you underestimated people's dislike for Harper.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Maths is hard in politics, too.

How most Canadians will be left out in the cold by Trudeau’s proposed tax cut



> The Liberals projected that while this new tax bracket is expected to bring in approximately $3.4 billion by 2016/17, it must be reduced by “a prudence factor” of $600 million to take into account the fact that “(h)igh earners may attempt to use tax planning strategies to avoid higher taxes.”
> 
> *The C.D. Howe authors believe the revenue loss could be much more significant. They estimate that the proposed four percentage point tax increase on incomes above $200,000 could result in those affected taxpayers reporting approximately 4.5 per cent less taxable income, costing the personal income tax base $7.3 billion in 2016 and thus reducing projected tax receipts from the hike by about 70 per cent.*


M'bold.

So, how do you balance a shortfall in income taxes?



> One alternative to raising personal income tax rates would be to shift part of the tax base from personal income taxes to consumption based taxes, like the GST/HST.


Which brings us back to square one, the low & middle income earners who will feel the effects of a GST/HST increase the most.

Brilliant...


----------



## FeXL

This meme could probably own its own thread, but...

I find the whole "Politically Correct" meme, at the same time, stupid, sad & frequently, ignorant.

This particular issue occurred at the U of Ottawa. Apparently some free yoga class on campus closed down because yoga is a cultural "appropriation" from the East Indians.

Free Ottawa yoga class scrapped over 'cultural issues'



> Student leaders have pulled the mat out from 60 University of Ottawa students, ending a free on-campus yoga class over fears the teachings could be seen as a form of "cultural appropriation."
> 
> Jennifer Scharf, who has been offering free weekly yoga instruction to students since 2008, says she was shocked when told in September the program would be suspended, and saddened when she learned of the reasoning.
> 
> Staff at the Centre for Students with Disabilities believe that "while yoga is a really great idea and accessible and great for students ... there are cultural issues of implication involved in the practice," according to an email from the centre.


Free Yoga classes at U. Ottawa cancelled as form of “cultural appropriation”



> Now they’ve gone too far. Someone tell me this is a hoax, and we’ve all been had.


U of O students' decision to cancel yoga class sparks Internet backlash



> A mind-bending act of political correctness by student leaders at the University of Ottawa has sparked an international backlash on social media.


A close friend of mine, a professor of psychology, & I spoke about this at some length yesterday. He pointed out that if the yogis of the 20th century hadn't wanted the discipline shared, they wouldn't have taught it to anyone else. Bingo!

We talked about many things which had been brought over from other cultures, martial arts, cooking, technology, music, politics, almost everything we do & use in everyday life is at least partly, if not wholly borrowed from other cultures.

Thinking about it even further today, it struck me that language was another thing borrowed from other cultures, the ultimate irony being that this occurred in an _English_ speaking country.

I ran across this article yesterday & it rang true.

Cultural Appropriation Is Culture



> This simply isn’t how culture works. You don’t own it in the way that you own your furniture. Your insistence that other people not take it doesn’t prevent your loss, it circumscribes their behavior. As is the case in all examples of political correctness, it is an attempt at control masquerading as an appeal for justice.
> 
> That we can admire each other’s beauty, even without cultural context, is part of what makes us human, and serves as a bridge over chasms of language and understanding. This cross-cultural admiration has been going on since the eastward campaigns of Alexander the Great fomented a vogue of Hellenism in Indian sculpture, and probably long before. When culture is borrowed, a new thing forms without the old one diminishing. *Cultural appropriation is culture, and if you halt one you halt the other.*


Nailed it...


----------



## rgray

Nude Harper painting sells for $5,000


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

I heard from a reporter that the biggest complaint of Syrians entering Germany was lack of free wi-fi to operate their cell phones.



rgray said:


>


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I heard from a reporter that the biggest complaint of Syrians entering Germany was lack of free wi-fi to operate their cell phones.


Yes, I'm sure that was refugees' _*biggest complaint*_.

Do you even read the bull**** you type?

Millions of refugees fleeing a war zone. Homes destroyed. Children / siblings / parents killed and injured. The agony of losing people that you love, the home you lived in, the future you thought you were building.

All of that means nothing, because MacFury 'heard from a reporter' that some Syrians were complaining about not having WiFi. _ I'm sure they just wanted to update their FB status._
*LOL! Made it to the promised land! Now begins my career as a welfare queen! Vote for Hillary! *​
Or maybe, _just maybe_ the 'reporter' (from who knows what ideologically-motivated news channel. Surely not someone who hates refugees...) was not fluent in Arabic? Or the refugee's ability to communicate in whatever language involved was not fluent? Perhaps the refugee was lamenting that they had no way to communicate with friends or relatives* to let them know that they are alive*?

How telling it is that you are first willing to accept the version of events that casts a poor light on the character of refugees than to consider other possibilities and context.


----------



## Macfury

Whatever makes you feel better, CM.

Capo Rizzuto, gli immigrati bloccano la Statale: "Vogliamo il wifi e i soldi" - IlGiornale.it



> "They want free wifi, demand cash instead of pocket money and forward complaints over the presence in the menu of dishes, like lasagna, they do not like, explained Adnkronos Leonardo Sacco , vice president of the Nazionale della Misericordie.


The journalist I heard on the radio was Ami Horowitz who embedded himself with Syrian refugees from Turkey. At refugee migrant centres in Germany, he said the biggest complaint was lack of WiFi service.

Nice compilation here of Syrian (and other) "refugees" complaining about food and slow Internet:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.








CubaMark said:


> Yes, I'm sure that was refugees' _*biggest complaint*_.
> 
> Do you even read the bull**** you type?
> 
> Millions of refugees fleeing a war zone. Homes destroyed. Children / siblings / parents killed and injured. The agony of losing people that you love, the home you lived in, the future you thought you were building.
> 
> All of that means nothing, because MacFury 'heard from a reporter' that some Syrians were complaining about not having WiFi. _ I'm sure they just wanted to update their FB status._
> *LOL! Made it to the promised land! Now begins my career as a welfare queen! Vote for Hillary! *​
> Or maybe, _just maybe_ the 'reporter' (from who knows what ideologically-motivated news channel. Surely not someone who hates refugees...) was not fluent in Arabic? Or the refugee's ability to communicate in whatever language involved was not fluent? Perhaps the refugee was lamenting that they had no way to communicate with friends or relatives* to let them know that they are alive*?
> 
> How telling it is that you are first willing to accept the version of events that casts a poor light on the character of refugees than to consider other possibilities and context.


----------



## fjnmusic

I'll bet there was no reporter. I heard from an anonymous source that Macfury is a misogynist and referred to one female politician as an "old hag."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

*Two politicians:* Notley AND Wynne are both old hags.



fjnmusic said:


> I'll bet there was no reporter. I heard from an anonymous source that Macfury is a misogynist and referred to one female politician as an "old hag."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I jes' luvs me a good Freudian slip...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Whatever makes you feel better, CM.
> 
> Capo Rizzuto, gli immigrati bloccano la Statale: "Vogliamo il wifi e i soldi" - IlGiornale.it
> 
> The journalist I heard on the radio was Ami Horowitz who embedded himself with Syrian refugees from Turkey. At refugee migrant centres in Germany, he said the biggest complaint was lack of WiFi service.


The article you linked in Italian does not deal with Syrian refugees - those appear to be economic migrants from Africa. Not all people looking to come to the West are refugees. This group would not qualify under UNHCR guidelines.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> The article you linked in Italian does not deal with Syrian refugees - those appear to be economic migrants from Africa. Not all people looking to come to the West are refugees. This group would not qualify under UNHCR guidelines.


Only Horowitz's refugee group was identified by me as Syrian.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> *Two politicians:* Notley AND Wynne are both old hags.



So what does that make you? An asshole misogynist? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## screature

Wow! just Wow.

Great post fjnmusic . Does that make you feel all puffed and proud? It seems calling someone an asshole or a "piece of ****" is the new normal among the left here... You are doing the the same thing as the new PBPM proud. Except unlike the PBPM you will not have to apologize..





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Classy.


----------



## Macfury

You can always tell when fjn is feeling impotent. Perhaps he's hoping he can goad everyone down to his own low level of "progressive" discourse.



screature said:


> Wow! just Wow.
> 
> Great post fjnmusic . Does that make you feel all puffed and proud? It seems calling someone an asshole or a "piece of ****" is the new normal among the left here...


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Wow! just Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> Great post fjnmusic . Does that make you feel all puffed and proud? It seems calling someone an asshole or a "piece of ****" is the new normal among the left here... You are doing the the same thing as the new PBPM proud. Except unlike the PBPM you will not have to apologize..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Classy.



So you are comfortable with calling females "old hags" then? That's some hypocrisy you got going there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You can always tell when fjn is feeling impotent. Perhaps he's hoping he can goad everyone down to his own low level of "progressive" discourse.



Like referring to women as "old hags"? You are becoming extremely forgetful in your old age. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rgray




----------



## FeXL

I know that the progressives will be asking, "Why is he posting this? The election is over." but some of us still care...

Liberal strategist and Trudeau donor Herb Metcalfe pleads guilty to tax evasion on a massive scale



> Metcalfe is a long-time Liberal strategist who just pled guilty to tax evasion. Apparently, he doesn’t like paying taxes but rather than support a party that might do something about high taxes for everyone, he went the crony route and attached himself to the Liberals so he could get special treatment.
> 
> We can just add him to the long and growing list of Liberals who have and likely will do this kind of thing again. It’s a list of names the Media Party won’t pay too much attention to.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Like referring to women as "old hags"? You are becoming extremely forgetful in your old age.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And yet another personal slur from you here directly to another member.

Once again... Classy.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> So you are comfortable with calling females "old hags" then? That's some hypocrisy you got going there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't saying anything about that now did I. For the record no I am not, but MF's comment wasn't personally directed to anyone here now was it? It was directed at political public figures.

Donald Trump is a piece of chite IMO, but I bet you have no problem with me saying that.

Your sense of offense is cherry picking as far as I can see.


----------



## Macfury

A hag is a particular form of evil sorceress, which I consider both premieres to be. My comments are directed outward at public figures, not at others here. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but in light of the horrible things said about Stephen Harper by fjn and others at ehMac, I consider this petty mild.



screature said:


> I didn't saying anything about that now did I. For the record no I am not, but MF's comment wasn't personally directed to anyone here now was it? It was directed at political public figures.
> 
> Donald Trump is a piece of chite IMO, but I bet you have no problem with me saying that.
> 
> Your sense of offense is cherry picking as far as I can see.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> A hag is a particular form of evil sorceress, which I consider both premieres to be. My comments are directed outward at public figures, not at others here. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but in light of the horrible things said about Stephen Harper by fjn and others at ehMac, I consider this petty mild.


Agreed.

It seems that in some people's opinion/mind what is good for the goose is not good for the gander... It is going to be a long 4 years with that kind of mentality.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> A hag is a particular form of evil sorceress, which I consider both premieres to be. My comments are directed outward at public figures, not at others here. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but in light of the horrible things said about Stephen Harper by fjn and others at ehMac, I consider this petty mild.


"The story of the Old Hag finds its origins in folklore, particularly in Newfoundland, though variations of the story are present throughout the world. Tales told of an old witch maliciously sitting on the chests of her victims while they lay in bed, or curses placed upon unsuspecting individuals causing them to meet this terror in the night."

The Old Hag Syndrome | Stranger Dimensions


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> "The story of the Old Hag finds its origins in folklore, particularly in Newfoundland, though variations of the story are present throughout the world. Tales told of an old witch maliciously sitting on the chests of her victims while they lay in bed, or curses placed upon unsuspecting individuals causing them to meet this terror in the night."
> 
> The Old Hag Syndrome | Stranger Dimensions


The idea of an Old Hag sitting on my chest is a lot like the burden of carrying a bloated government, Dr. G. But at least it's not a succubus.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Like referring to women as "old hags"? You are becoming extremely forgetful in your old age.


Sometimes even teachers need a lesson in word history and their uses and meanings.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> And yet another personal slur from you here directly to another member.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again... Classy.



Please explain. It sounds as though you've been drinking your own bath water. You are very selective about what you consider to be "slurs." Show some consistency, unless you consider "old hag" to be an acceptable epithet for a middle-aged woman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> A hag is a particular form of evil sorceress, which I consider both premieres to be. My comments are directed outward at public figures, not at others here. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but in light of the horrible things said about Stephen Harper by fjn and others at ehMac, I consider this petty mild.



So you admit to your hypocrisy. Fair enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> I didn't saying anything about that now did I. For the record no I am not, but MF's comment wasn't personally directed to anyone here now was it? It was directed at political public figures.
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump is a piece of chite IMO, but I bet you have no problem with me saying that.
> 
> 
> 
> Your sense of offense is cherry picking as far as I can see.



Well, Steve: Rachel is not old and she is certainly no hag. It's the wrong term. I have no problem when the description fits. If one were to call her a myopic tree-hugger feminist, I would have no issue with that. I may not agree, but at least there would be some basis in fact.

And yes, Don, I agree: the nuances of particular words and phrases is important.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

No hypocrisy. I'm happy to use the term again--I just don't know why EhMacers who have said far worse have suddenly developed a thin skin on others' behalf.





fjnmusic said:


> So you admit to your hypocrisy. Fair enough.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The idea of an Old Hag sitting on my chest is a lot like the burden of carrying a bloated government, Dr. G. But at least it's not a succubus.


A bloated government would be a succubus sitting upon our chest with an incubus sitting upon her shoulders .................... all with a gaggle of bureaucratic vultures ready to pick the bones clean comes income tax time.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> A bloated government would be a succubus sitting upon our chest with an incubus sitting upon her shoulders .................... all with a gaggle of bureaucratic vultures ready to pick the bones clean comes income tax time.


An incubus? Er... not that there's anything wrong with that...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> A hag is a particular form of evil sorceress, which I consider both premieres to be. My comments are directed outward at public figures, not at others here. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but in light of the horrible things said about Stephen Harper by fjn and others at ehMac, I consider this petty mild.



_Hags, dogs, whores, bitches. It's amazing how much hate you can pack into a few syllables. How do you spot a woman-hater? By the way they talk about women, treat women, react to women, represent women. Bitching about women, slagging off women – even the language used to describe such slander comes from misogyny. The ubiquitous verbal violence supports physical violence _ (The Guardian)​


----------



## MacGuiver

CubaMark said:


> _Hags, dogs, whores, bitches. It's amazing how much hate you can pack into a few syllables. How do you spot a woman-hater? By the way they talk about women, treat women, react to women, represent women. Bitching about women, slagging off women – even the language used to describe such slander comes from misogyny. The ubiquitous verbal violence supports physical violence _ (The Guardian)​


When I heard "Old Hag" it became obvious MacFury was a wife beater!


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> _Hags, dogs, whores, bitches. It's amazing how much hate you can pack into a few syllables. How do you spot a woman-hater? By the way they talk about women, treat women, react to women, represent women. Bitching about women, slagging off women – even the language used to describe such slander comes from misogyny. The ubiquitous verbal violence supports physical violence _ (The Guardian)​



A misogynist, certainly; but don't dare call him an asshole, even if misogyny is the typical trademark of an assoholic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Fortunately for those afflicted by assoholic tendencies, there are warning signs: 
http://youtu.be/iXvk2FqEmaE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray

*Cap and Trade*


----------



## SINC

That one is similar to the one I posted in the Alberta NDP thread.


----------



## SINC

And now this.


----------



## CubaMark

Hopefully this will put the monarchist types on mute for awhile... (minutes, most likely):

_Ladies and gentlemen,

As the Commonwealth’s newest head of government, I am honoured to offer toast to Your Majesty, Head of the Commonwealth and Queen of Canada.

In so doing, I am deeply mindful of Your Majesty’s long and tireless service to the Commonwealth and its citizens.

As Head of the Commonwealth you embody our family of nations and the values expressed in the Charter collectively endorsed three years ago.

Your example of dedication and selfless service inspires as we strive to build our societies on the principles of respect, inclusiveness and dignity.

You were only nine years old when you carried out what was perhaps your first official duty on behalf of Canada — an appearance on a postage stamp. That was 1935.

From that moment to this, Your Majesty has been such a constant presence in the life of Canada that a modern history of our nation could be written entirely with vignettes from your life.

Here’s one: In 1951, Princess Elizabeth attends her first hockey game, in Montreal, at the legendary Montreal Forum.

And another: in 1959, Queen Elizabeth opens the St. Lawrence Seaway.

And another: In 1967, Queen Elizabeth cuts Canada’s centennial cake on Parliament Hill as Canadians sing Happy Birthday.

There are countless scenes like these to choose from. In a single tour in 1959, over 45 days, you visited 90 towns and cities.

It is safe to say that you have seen more of Canada than almost any Canadian. And always, Canadians have watched and admired their indefatigable queen, forming cherished memories.

Some of those memories are of formal state occasions. Some are more personal. And for a few, some are both.

One that I personally remember well from my childhood and indeed, treasure is this: It is 1982, again on Parliament Hill. Queen Elizabeth signs the Constitution Act, thus empowering Canada’s legal foundation, including our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

On that cool day in April, seated next to you, was my father.

Pierre Elliott Trudeau was your fourth Canadian prime minister.

I am your twelfth.

In 1947, you famously vowed that your whole life would be devoted to the service of the Commonwealth.

You more than honoured your vow. And for that, on behalf of all Canadians and indeed, of all of us citizens of the Commonwealth, I thank you.

I now ask you to rise, charge your glasses and join me in a toast to Her Majesty the Queen.

*(The Queen's Response)*

As Head of the Commonwealth, it is with great pleasure that I welcome you all here this evening.

Thank you, Mr Prime Minister of Canada, for making me feel so old!

We are grateful to be with you for the second Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting hosted by Malta, and I hope that this occasion will allow you to gather as friends and enjoy Malta’s hospitality.​_​


----------



## SINC

Seconds. What tripe.


----------



## SINC

And now this:

Government announces $2.65B to help developing countries fight climate change - Politics - CBC News

Wonder how many dictators will now be able to buy yet another gold plated toilet for their mansions while their people starve and no one in the country knows what global warming even means.


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> Hopefully this will put the monarchist types on mute for awhile... (minutes, most likely):
> 
> 
> 
> _Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> 
> 
> As the Commonwealth’s newest head of government, I am honoured to offer toast to Your Majesty, Head of the Commonwealth and Queen of Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> In so doing, I am deeply mindful of Your Majesty’s long and tireless service to the Commonwealth and its citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> As Head of the Commonwealth you embody our family of nations and the values expressed in the Charter collectively endorsed three years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Your example of dedication and selfless service inspires as we strive to build our societies on the principles of respect, inclusiveness and dignity.
> 
> 
> 
> You were only nine years old when you carried out what was perhaps your first official duty on behalf of Canada — an appearance on a postage stamp. That was 1935.
> 
> 
> 
> From that moment to this, Your Majesty has been such a constant presence in the life of Canada that a modern history of our nation could be written entirely with vignettes from your life.
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s one: In 1951, Princess Elizabeth attends her first hockey game, in Montreal, at the legendary Montreal Forum.
> 
> 
> 
> And another: in 1959, Queen Elizabeth opens the St. Lawrence Seaway.
> 
> 
> 
> And another: In 1967, Queen Elizabeth cuts Canada’s centennial cake on Parliament Hill as Canadians sing Happy Birthday.
> 
> 
> 
> There are countless scenes like these to choose from. In a single tour in 1959, over 45 days, you visited 90 towns and cities.
> 
> 
> 
> It is safe to say that you have seen more of Canada than almost any Canadian. And always, Canadians have watched and admired their indefatigable queen, forming cherished memories.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of those memories are of formal state occasions. Some are more personal. And for a few, some are both.
> 
> 
> 
> One that I personally remember well from my childhood and indeed, treasure is this: It is 1982, again on Parliament Hill. Queen Elizabeth signs the Constitution Act, thus empowering Canada’s legal foundation, including our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> 
> 
> On that cool day in April, seated next to you, was my father.
> 
> 
> 
> Pierre Elliott Trudeau was your fourth Canadian prime minister.
> 
> 
> 
> I am your twelfth.
> 
> 
> 
> In 1947, you famously vowed that your whole life would be devoted to the service of the Commonwealth.
> 
> 
> 
> You more than honoured your vow. And for that, on behalf of all Canadians and indeed, of all of us citizens of the Commonwealth, I thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I now ask you to rise, charge your glasses and join me in a toast to Her Majesty the Queen.
> 
> 
> 
> *(The Queen's Response)*
> 
> 
> 
> As Head of the Commonwealth, it is with great pleasure that I welcome you all here this evening.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, Mr Prime Minister of Canada, for making me feel so old!
> 
> 
> 
> We are grateful to be with you for the second Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting hosted by Malta, and I hope that this occasion will allow you to gather as friends and enjoy Malta’s hospitality.​_​



Not likely to keep any monarchist types quiet around here. What amazes me is how many conservative minded individuals actually believe that they are intellectually smarter than their liberal minded counterparts. Less compassionate, certainly, but more intelligent? Bizarre.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> And now this:
> 
> Government announces $2.65B to help developing countries fight climate change - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Wonder how many dictators will now be able to buy yet another gold plated toilet for their mansions while their people starve and no one in the country knows what global warming even means.


What the hell? No wonder these assholes say they won't be able to balance the budget. What's next? Billions for tooth fairy support?


----------



## rgray




----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Well, Steve: Rachel is not old and she is certainly no hag. It's the wrong term. I have no problem when the description fits. If one were to call her a myopic tree-hugger feminist, I would have no issue with that. I may not agree, but at least there would be some basis in fact.
> 
> And yes, Don, I agree: the nuances of particular words and phrases is important.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She may or not be, depending on one's opinion and it it also seems you do not seem to get my point.

Calling public figures names is child's play. Those on the right had to suffer it for almost 10 years and now suddenly a few weeks in and you are going to take exception to a couple of rather misplaced comments!!??

There are four *long* years ahead...


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> She may or not be, depending on one's opinion and it it also seems you do not seem to get my point.
> 
> Calling public figures names is child's play. Those on the right had to suffer it for almost 10 years and now suddenly a few weeks in and you are going to take exception to a couple of rather misplaced comments!!??
> 
> There are four *long* years ahead...


So you feel it's okay to refer to women as "old hags." See, I don't believe it matters much whether they are public figures or not. Classless is classless.


----------



## SINC

Scary stuff.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Scary stuff.



Why scary? Pierre Elliott Trudeau was one of the finest Prime Ministers we've ever had. Mulroney and Harper couldn't hold a candle to him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Why scary? Pierre Elliott Trudeau was one of the finest Prime Ministers we've ever had. Mulroney and Harper couldn't hold a candle to him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You obviously aren't old enough to remember the NEP and the devastation it had on western Canada. He was without a doubt the worst PM ever.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> You obviously aren't old enough to remember the NEP and the devastation it had on western Canada. He was without a doubt the worst PM ever.



Old enough? How old do you have to be? I may not be a fossil but I'm old enough to remember the NEP. As I recall, it was also about Alberta's unwillingness to share its good fortune with the rest of the country. Tell you what: why doesn't Fort McMurray separate from the rest of the province and become its own province? I mean, they have all the natural resources. The rest of the province is just taking advantage of Northern Alberta, especially Calgary. And we leave them with a ****ty highway too with tons of fatalities. Fort Mac should just separate and do its own thing. 

I suppose you're too old and forgetful to remember when farmers from Eastern Canada sent us their wheat by rail so our cows could eat when we had years of devastating drought. We live in a country, not just a province. We're in this together. The WCC is dead and gone, although there are some whiners who keep bringing up the idea of Western separation every time a Prime Minister from the East is elected. 


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## FeXL

First, ever heard of transfer payments?

Second, you want me to share my good fortune, then let's sit down & talk about it. You don't just come along & misappropriate (read: steal) $100,000,000,000 from a single province. Don't recall anybody taking $100 billion from Ontario (over & above their transfer payments) when their manufacturing sector was booming.



fjnmusic said:


> As I recall, it was also about Alberta's unwillingness to share its good fortune with the rest of the country.


----------



## Macfury

The rock-bottom worst Prime Minister of the modern era. A disaster from top to bottom and a national embarrassment.

Forcing any province to reprice its goods is governance on the order of a tin-pot dictatorship. I live in Ontario and became angry over this boneheaded move.



fjnmusic said:


> Why scary? Pierre Elliott Trudeau was one of the finest Prime Ministers we've ever had. Mulroney and Harper couldn't hold a candle to him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

PET nearly drove this province into the ground. Period. To this day, despite the attempt of provincial Alberta Liberals to distance themselves from their Federal counterparts, the word "Liberal" in Alberta politics is anathema.

His economic policies were a disaster, not limited to but including the NEP.

He was divisive in domestic policy.

He was an arrogant, conceited ass.

Finest is among the last words I would ever use to describe him...



fjnmusic said:


> Pierre Elliott Trudeau was one of the finest Prime Ministers we've ever had.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> PET nearly drove this province into the ground. Period. To this day, despite the attempt of provincial Alberta Liberals to distance themselves from their Federal counterparts, the word "Liberal" in Alberta politics is anathema.
> 
> 
> 
> His economic policies were a disaster, not limited to but including the NEP.
> 
> 
> 
> He was divisive in domestic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> He was an arrogant, conceited ass.
> 
> 
> 
> Finest is among the last words I would ever use to describe him...



In case you hadn't noticed, the term "Progressive Conservative" in Alberta politics is also anathema today. You were so busy worrying about being raped by the Feds you didn't even notice you were being raped right here at home. 

At least it helps explain why you and Macfury have such narrow-minded views of the world and the country. You don't like a certain politician and no one else should either. Period. It's what I would expect from mean girls in junior high school. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

No, we expect you would like him. It goes with the territory.



fjnmusic said:


> In case you hadn't noticed, the term "Progressive Conservative" in Alberta politics is also anathema today. You were so busy worrying about being raped by the Feds you didn't even notice you were being raped right here at home.
> 
> At least it helps explain why you and Macfury have such narrow-minded views of the world and the country. You don't like a certain politician and no one else should either. Period. It's what I would expect from mean girls in junior high school.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

CubaMark said:


> *ahem*
> 
> Believe it or not....
> Website: Fraser Institute
> Charitable Reg. #: 11923 3823 RR0001
> Charity Intelligence Canada - Fraser Institute
> 'Why isn't the right-leaning Fraser Institute being audited by the Canada Revenue Agency?'





Macfury said:


> I think they're exempt because they're just sensible--not partisan.


"...not partisan...". * Riiiiiiiigggghhhhhtttttt.*

*Fraser Institute co-founder confirms "years and years" of U.S. oil billionaires' funding*

Amidst revelations that the Fraser Institute accepted at least $500,000 from the Koch family between 2007 and 2010, the institute's co-founder acknowledged that the US oil billionaires have a long history of donating to the think tank.

Two foundations under the Koch family's auspices – the Charles G. Koch and the Claude R. Lambe Foundations – gave the Fraser Institute large grants to conduct “international work,” its former executive director Michael Walker told the Vancouver Observer.

“I know the grant from the Koch Foundation is for our international work, but I can't tell you which of the projects that it's funding,” Walker, who co-founded the institute in 1974 and remains a Senior Fellow, told the Vancouver Observer. “Before the Koch Foundation, we used to get funding from Koch Industries, when they had extensive holdings in Canada.

“Years and years” prior to receiving grants from the Koch family foundation, Walker said, a Canadian subsidiary of Koch Industries made regular donations to the organization as a corporate member.

* * *​
In 2003, the Fraser Institute accepted $120,000 from ExxonMobil oil company, using the money for “climate research”, according to the Vancouver Sun.

The institute – which supports the development of the Alberta oil sands as well as oil pipelines through BC – has also employed both Sun News Network host Ezra Levant (author of the pro-oil sands book Ethical Oil) and former Ethical Oil organization spokesperson Kathryn Marshall.​
(VancouverObserver)


----------



## Macfury

Why would that matter to you? The leftist think tanks do it openly. If you believe they're producing false reports that would obviously be dishonest.

Besides, your cast of voodoo dolls only scares lefties.



CubaMark said:


> "...not partisan...". * Riiiiiiiigggghhhhhtttttt.*
> 
> *Fraser Institute co-founder confirms "years and years" of U.S. oil billionaires' funding*
> 
> Amidst revelations that the Fraser Institute accepted at least $500,000 from the Koch family between 2007 and 2010, the institute's co-founder acknowledged that the US oil billionaires have a long history of donating to the think tank.
> 
> Two foundations under the Koch family's auspices – the Charles G. Koch and the Claude R. Lambe Foundations – gave the Fraser Institute large grants to conduct “international work,” its former executive director Michael Walker told the Vancouver Observer.
> 
> “I know the grant from the Koch Foundation is for our international work, but I can't tell you which of the projects that it's funding,” Walker, who co-founded the institute in 1974 and remains a Senior Fellow, told the Vancouver Observer. “Before the Koch Foundation, we used to get funding from Koch Industries, when they had extensive holdings in Canada.
> 
> “Years and years” prior to receiving grants from the Koch family foundation, Walker said, a Canadian subsidiary of Koch Industries made regular donations to the organization as a corporate member.
> 
> * * *​
> In 2003, the Fraser Institute accepted $120,000 from ExxonMobil oil company, using the money for “climate research”, according to the Vancouver Sun.
> 
> The institute – which supports the development of the Alberta oil sands as well as oil pipelines through BC – has also employed both Sun News Network host Ezra Levant (author of the pro-oil sands book Ethical Oil) and former Ethical Oil organization spokesperson Kathryn Marshall.​
> (VancouverObserver)


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> "...not partisan...". * Riiiiiiiigggghhhhhtttttt.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Fraser Institute co-founder confirms "years and years" of U.S. oil billionaires' funding*
> 
> 
> 
> Amidst revelations that the Fraser Institute accepted at least $500,000 from the Koch family between 2007 and 2010, the institute's co-founder acknowledged that the US oil billionaires have a long history of donating to the think tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Two foundations under the Koch family's auspices – the Charles G. Koch and the Claude R. Lambe Foundations – gave the Fraser Institute large grants to conduct “international work,” its former executive director Michael Walker told the Vancouver Observer.
> 
> 
> 
> “I know the grant from the Koch Foundation is for our international work, but I can't tell you which of the projects that it's funding,” Walker, who co-founded the institute in 1974 and remains a Senior Fellow, told the Vancouver Observer. “Before the Koch Foundation, we used to get funding from Koch Industries, when they had extensive holdings in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> “Years and years” prior to receiving grants from the Koch family foundation, Walker said, a Canadian subsidiary of Koch Industries made regular donations to the organization as a corporate member.
> 
> 
> 
> * * *​
> 
> 
> In 2003, the Fraser Institute accepted $120,000 from ExxonMobil oil company, using the money for “climate research”, according to the Vancouver Sun.
> 
> 
> 
> The institute – which supports the development of the Alberta oil sands as well as oil pipelines through BC – has also employed both Sun News Network host Ezra Levant (author of the pro-oil sands book Ethical Oil) and former Ethical Oil organization spokesperson Kathryn Marshall.​
> 
> 
> (VancouverObserver)



And so the puzzle pieces fit together quite nicely. The Fraser Institute is far from objective or sensible. Always has been. It was also the Klein gov't's go-to source to backup its raping and pillaging of Alberta taxpayer dollars. 


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----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

You're still probably angry because he put government employees guzzling at the trough on a much-needed diet. 



fjnmusic said:


> And so the puzzle pieces fit together quite nicely. The Fraser Institute is far from objective or sensible. Always has been. It was also the Klein gov't's go-to source to backup its raping and pillaging of Alberta taxpayer dollars.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You're still probably angry because he put government employees guzzling at the trough on a much-needed diet.



Good God. You have no idea, do you? Enjoy that PC Kool Aid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

.


----------



## Macfury

Ralph Klein could have been elected in a heartbeat last election, given the trash that was running.



fjnmusic said:


> Good God. You have no idea, do you? Enjoy that PC Kool Aid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

No argument. However, your point is moot because I haven't voted for the provincial Conservatives since I got burned with Stelmach.

I had them figgered out long before many Albertans did.



fjnmusic said:


> In case you hadn't noticed, the term "Progressive Conservative" in Alberta politics is also anathema today.


I never felt raped under Harper. I do now under the Dauphin & I most certainly did under his old man.



fjnmusic said:


> You were so busy worrying about being raped by the Feds you didn't even notice you were being raped right here at home.


Oh, wahhh... Please spare me (us).

Frankly, I don't care who what politicians you like or dislike. If you can defend your choices, feel free. Go ahead. Defend PET's economic & domestic policies. While you're at it, you may want to have a shot at his questionable foreign policy, too. Good luck.



fjnmusic said:


> At least it helps explain why you and Macfury have such narrow-minded views of the world and the country. You don't like a certain politician and no one else should either. Period.


Curious. What I would expect from a junior high school girl is just the sort of whining in your post.



fjnmusic said:


> It's what I would expect from mean girls in junior high school.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Frankly, I don't care who what politicians you like or dislike. If you can defend your choices, feel free. Go ahead. Defend PET's economic & domestic policies. While you're at it, you may want to have a shot at his questionable foreign policy, too. Good luck.


That comment surprised me as well. Why would anyone want to loosen his tight grip on his collection of PET glossies, pennants and "Fuddle Duddle mugs"? Better to let them sink in that miasma of confused idolatry. The cold wind of reason would probably overwhelm their tender constitutions.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

If Harper had assigned someone, anyone, up for the cronyism displayed here, the hue & cry from the progressives would have been heard worldwide...

Syrian refugee coordinator in Montreal to make $1,800 a day to welcome the newcomers to Canada



> Michel Dorais was one of Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre’s top employees when he served as immigration minister. Now, he’ll head up the efforts to welcome thousands of Syrian refugees, *at a rate of $1,800 per day.*


That's just f'ing offensive...


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> If Harper had assigned someone, anyone, up for the cronyism displayed here, the hue & cry from the progressives would have been heard worldwide...
> 
> Syrian refugee coordinator in Montreal to make $1,800 a day to welcome the newcomers to Canada
> 
> 
> 
> That's just f'ing offensive...


Good grief!

How dimwitted are you when you can't separate Municipal Politics from Federal Politics?

A ready reference for your consideration:



Dictionary: Municipal said:


> adjective
> of or relating to a city or town or its governing body:





Dictionary: Federal said:


> adjective
> having or relating to a system of government in which several states form a unity but remain independent in internal affairs: Russia's federation treaty shares powers among Russia's federal and local governments.
> • of, relating to, or denoting the central government as distinguished from the separate units constituting a federation: the federal agency that provides legal services to the poor:


----------



## FeXL

Ah, that must be some of that 24 carat reasoning you were talking about earlier.

Cronyism is cronyism, no matter the level. And, Liberal cronies are the worst. Not only that, the most hypocritical.

Back to the weather thread!



BigDL said:


> Good grief!


----------



## BigDL

FeXL said:


> Ah, that must be some of that 24 carat reasoning you were talking about earlier.
> 
> Cronyism is cronyism, no matter the level. And, Liberal cronies are the worst. Not only that, the most hypocritical.
> 
> Back to the weather thread!





FeXL said:


> ...That's just f'ing offensive...


You said IT! 

And you can't seem to keep your sphincter closed can you?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> You said IT!
> 
> And you can't seem to keep your sphincter closed can you?


Which sphincter would that be BigDL old pal? The body has several and many should primarily remain open for good health.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Which sphincter would that be BigDL old pal? The body has several and many should primarily remain open for good health.


I'm thinking the in the area of alimentary canal.


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

Mot people aren't even demanding action! Mostly eco-weenies and politicians hungry for cash infusions.


----------



## fjnmusic

Mot people don't want to do anything thy will change their lifestyle or inconvenience them even one tiny bit. We become more wasteful, not less. Case in point: bottled water. Biggest scam ever perpetrated on the human psyche. Sells lots of plastic though, which is great for the petrochemical industry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SINC

.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> Mot people aren't even demanding action! Mostly eco-weenies and politicians hungry for cash infusions.


The only people who don't want action are the viperous nest of knee-jeck right wingers who are either EXTREME LOW INFORMATION types or lack the ability to process the information they might have.


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> The only people who don't want action are the viperous nest of knee-jeck right wingers who are either EXTREME LOW INFORMATION types or lack the ability to process the information they might have.


Look at the polls son. Besides, you have never demonstrated the slightest ability to parse the scientific backing for these theories or to defend them. You simply turn to the priest class for backing, hold hands with a dwindling number of chicken little acolytes and mumble your prayers. You're suffering from a bad case of "progressive" guilt based on nothing. Why do you think that COP21 is based almost entirely on transfer of wealth to cronies and no verifiable targets? No science and no intention to do anything about it.

I could run rings around you here, rgray. Doubt you could keep up with me.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Look at the polls son. Besides, you have never demonstrated the slightest ability to parse the scientific backing for these theories or to defend them. You simply turn to the priest class for backing, hold hands with a dwindling number of chicken little acolytes and mumble your prayers. You're suffering from a bad case of "progressive" guilt based on nothing. Why do you think that COP21 is based almost entirely on transfer of wealth to cronies and no verifiable targets? No science and no intention to do anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I could run rings around you here, rgray. Doubt you could keep up with me.



"Look at the polls, son"? I believe the other expression is the only poll that counts is the one on Election Day. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Only if your conversation is just about elections.



fjnmusic said:


> "Look at the polls, son"? I believe the other expression is the only poll that counts is the one on Election Day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

ROFL! This is hilarious! * Ezra Levant *is so far off the right-wing rails, he's now for all intents and purposes* calling Stephen Harper a closet Muslim..*.

_HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!_

*VIDEO: Ezra Levant accuses Harper Conservatives of bizarre Muslim 'social engineering' project*​
Conservative pundit Ezra Levant's fear-mongering against Muslim-Canadians has gone to the next level.

He now blames Stephen Harper's Conservatives for deliberate acts of social engineering, believe it or not.

On a recent episode of his YouTube show, Levant crunched some numbers and arrived at a startling conclusion: the Conservatives "deliberately" increased Muslim immigration "since 9/11" as "a deliberate act of social and political engineering":​




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.




​
And how surreal is it that he's citing Statistics Canada data... something the looney right apparently abhors and distrusts _per se_ 

(PressProgress)


----------



## Macfury

The clip only says that Harper did not change the Liberal quota policy. You on the sauce CM?




CubaMark said:


> ROFL! This is hilarious! * Ezra Levant *is so far off the right-wing rails, he's now for all intents and purposes* calling Stephen Harper a closet Muslim..*.
> 
> _HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!_
> 
> *VIDEO: Ezra Levant accuses Harper Conservatives of bizarre Muslim 'social engineering' project*​
> Conservative pundit Ezra Levant's fear-mongering against Muslim-Canadians has gone to the next level.
> 
> He now blames Stephen Harper's Conservatives for deliberate acts of social engineering, believe it or not.
> 
> On a recent episode of his YouTube show, Levant crunched some numbers and arrived at a startling conclusion: the Conservatives "deliberately" increased Muslim immigration "since 9/11" as "a deliberate act of social and political engineering":​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> And how surreal is it that he's citing Statistics Canada data... something the looney right apparently abhors and distrusts _per se_
> 
> (PressProgress)


----------



## FeXL

More critical thinking? Brilliant!!!



BigDL said:


> You said IT!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The Lying Left or Liberal Bait & Switch?

1. Another Liberal pledge gets trimmed back



> Before taking office, Justin Trudeau promised to end fees for processing information requests; empower the information commissioner to order documents released and subject ministers to the act. But Trudeau’s mandate letter to Treasury Board President Scott Brison abandons some commitments and weakens other. The promise to cut fees is gone, ministers will only be held to “appropriate” requests and the other pledges are now subject to a “review” to be started sometime next year.


Either way, governing is hard...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

From the "Take Another Hit On The Bong" department & he who brings you an economic policy "From The Heart"...

Trudeau on climate change: ‘Indigenous peoples have known for thousands of years how to care for our planet’



> “Indigenous peoples have known for thousands of years how to care for our planet,” he said. “The rest of us have a lot to learn. And no time to waste.”
> 
> Trudeau said national governments like his own also have a lot they can learn from cities, and from the provincial premiers who’ve accompanied him to these talks


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Dr.G.

"On Tuesday, Ontario’s Auditor-General announced that, between 2006 and 2014, thanks to incompetence and mismanagement on the part of the province’s Liberal government, Ontarians overpaid for electricity to the tune of $37-billion. And over the next 18 years, consumers will be overpaying to the tune of another $133-billion.

Let’s try to put those numbers in context. Electricity overpriced by $170-billion is equivalent to $12,326 in excess costs for every man, woman and child in Ontario. Over 27 years, that averages out to $457 per person, per year. According to Statistics Canada, the average Ontario household has 2.6 people, so for the typical family, we’re talking about a power utility bill roughly $1,188 higher than it should be – every year." Wow!! And they are selling Ontario Hydro???????? It is a money maker ................. on the backs of the average folks in Ontario.

Ontario's Liberals have completely broken the electricity system - The Globe and Mail


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Only if your conversation is just about elections.



Just quoting your fearless ex-leader, Mr. Stephen Harper. What's he up to these days anyway? Too cold to golf. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## rgray




----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Up to 50,000 Syrian refugees could be in Canada by end of 2016



> Canada will accept between 35,000 and 50,000 Syrian refugees by the end of 2016, Immigration Minister John McCallum says.
> 
> McCallum huddled up with provincial ministers and community organizations in Toronto Thursday to talk about planning to settle refugees in the city. The Liberal government has promised to bring in 10,000 people by Dec. 31, and another 15,000 by the end of February.
> 
> Between the government sponsored 25,000 and another 10,000 privately sponsored refugees, Canada will be home to at least 35,000 Syrians by the end of 2016, McCallum said.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Sharia Law Supporter Omar Alghabra is the new Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs



> Mr Alghabra has openly stated that he favors Sharia Law for Ontario and that he was disappointed when he did not happen in Ontario after the 2003/2006 debate in Ontario.


Related (from 2013):

Bad advice: Think Justin Trudeau’s instincts are scary? Take a look at what two of his advisers have to say



> Alghabra wrote a letter to Toronto’s police chief in 2005 condemning the chief for participating in a charity walk for Israel, saying Israel was “conducting a brutal and the longest contemporary military occupation in the world.” In a letter to a journalist, he wrote the chief’s visit to Israel was comparable to visiting Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship.
> 
> When arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat died, Alghabra put out a press release announcing he was mourning for him. When Canada was setting up a no-fly list for passengers considered security threats, Alghabra opposed it.
> 
> *And when Ontario narrowly rejected adopting shariah law for Muslim divorces, Alghabra was disappointed, calling it “unfortunate.”*
> 
> Justin Trudeau’s instincts are wrong — on terrorism, on honour killings, on extremist groups.
> 
> But even scarier than his own instincts are those of his advisers.


M'bold.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Sharia Law Supporter Omar Alghabra is the new Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs


Sigh. Typical uninformed reactionary ideologue. 

Here's a Reddit thread on the topic. Folks have been trying to find the actual supposed quote from Alghabra. Interestingly, it's proving a wee bit challenging to dig up. And the only 'sources' are a far-right blog that cites other far-right wingnuts. 

*Can you come up with the actual words of Alghabra, or are you content to rely on third-hand obviously biased sources?*



FeXL said:


> Related (from 2013):
> Bad advice: Think Justin Trudeau’s instincts are scary? Take a look at what two of his advisers have to say


*What do you know* about Sharia law as it pertains to divorce? Or are you simply running around, screaming, "Sharia Law! Sharia Law! Aaaaggghhh!!!!"?

It's like saying "Harper supports Christian Law!" which could include:
_If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death._
(Leviticus 20:10 NLT)​
I have no idea about divorce under Sharia Law. I suspect, as with any religious matter, women are at some disadvantage (they usually are, regardless of the specific religion or culture under discussion).

These folks have a different take:

_The advent of Islam made the divorce process much more favorable to women. *Women’s property is not divided during a divorce*.[58] *Whatever a woman earns or is given before and during the course of the marriage remains her property if the marriage ends*.[59] This prevents men from taking advantage of women’s property or wealth through marriage. On the other hand,* the man’s property is divided *if a divorce occurs according to the couple’s marriage contract.[60] *A woman is entitled to support and maintenance* from her former husband if she requires.[61] There are also special instructions if divorce occurs before the marriage is consummated and before or after the dowry is set.[62]

Islam also instituted a three-month waiting period for women called Iddah.[63] During this three-month period women are not permitted to re-marry.[64] The basic reason for this rule is to determine whether the woman was pregnant before she remarried so the proper father could be ascertained.[65] This practice also ensures the child’s identity and lineage can be accurately determined.[66] A husband and wife are also allowed to attempt reconciliation during the waiting period.[67] However, men are specifically instructed not to take back their wives to “injure or take undue advantage” of them.[68]

*Determining the proper procedure for divorce is highly dependent upon the timing of the divorce, the reasons for divorce, the client’s Islamic School of Thought (Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shafi), whether he or she is Sunni or Shiite*, and the circumstances surrounding the divorce.[69] The scope of this article cannot cover all the conceivable scenarios or grounds for divorce but will seek to address the basic requirements for divorce. [70]_(William Mitchell Journal of Law and Practice)​


----------



## Macfury

The problem is not Sharia Law, but the government recognizing its judgements.



CubaMark said:


> Sigh. Typical uninformed reactionary ideologue.
> 
> Here's a Reddit thread on the topic. Folks have been trying to find the actual supposed quote from Alghabra. Interestingly, it's proving a wee bit challenging to dig up. And the only 'sources' are a far-right blog that cites other far-right wingnuts.
> 
> *Can you come up with the actual words of Alghabra, or are you content to rely on third-hand obviously biased sources?*
> 
> 
> 
> *What do you know* about Sharia law as it pertains to divorce? Or are you simply running around, screaming, "Sharia Law! Sharia Law! Aaaaggghhh!!!!"?
> 
> It's like saying "Harper supports Christian Law!" which could include:
> _If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death._
> (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)​
> I have no idea about divorce under Sharia Law. I suspect, as with any religious matter, women are at some disadvantage (they usually are, regardless of the specific religion or culture under discussion).
> 
> These folks have a different take:
> 
> _The advent of Islam made the divorce process much more favorable to women. *Women’s property is not divided during a divorce*.[58] *Whatever a woman earns or is given before and during the course of the marriage remains her property if the marriage ends*.[59] This prevents men from taking advantage of women’s property or wealth through marriage. On the other hand,* the man’s property is divided *if a divorce occurs according to the couple’s marriage contract.[60] *A woman is entitled to support and maintenance* from her former husband if she requires.[61] There are also special instructions if divorce occurs before the marriage is consummated and before or after the dowry is set.[62]
> 
> Islam also instituted a three-month waiting period for women called Iddah.[63] During this three-month period women are not permitted to re-marry.[64] The basic reason for this rule is to determine whether the woman was pregnant before she remarried so the proper father could be ascertained.[65] This practice also ensures the child’s identity and lineage can be accurately determined.[66] A husband and wife are also allowed to attempt reconciliation during the waiting period.[67] However, men are specifically instructed not to take back their wives to “injure or take undue advantage” of them.[68]
> 
> *Determining the proper procedure for divorce is highly dependent upon the timing of the divorce, the reasons for divorce, the client’s Islamic School of Thought (Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shafi), whether he or she is Sunni or Shiite*, and the circumstances surrounding the divorce.[69] The scope of this article cannot cover all the conceivable scenarios or grounds for divorce but will seek to address the basic requirements for divorce. [70]_(William Mitchell Journal of Law and Practice)​


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The problem is not Sharia Law, but the government recognizing its judgements.



Can you elaborate? It sounds like you're speaking in vague generalities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

If people wish to arbitrarily submit to Sharia Law, that's their business. However, the government should not recognize judgments under Sharia Law as legally binding.



fjnmusic said:


> Can you elaborate? It sounds like you're speaking in vague generalities.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> If people wish to arbitrarily submit to Sharia Law, that's their business. However, the government should not recognize judgments under Sharia Law as legally binding.



Is there some consideration by the government to have Sharia law replace the current law in Canada? It is my understanding that any law that contravenes the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms would be struck down by the courts in Canada in any event. That's what the courts are for: interpreting and applying the law. In today's Canada for example, a man would not be given the right to hit his wife because they would interfere with her right to safety or security. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Two words: Tim Ball.

Until then, I owe you nothing, hypocrite.



CubaMark said:


> Can you come up with the actual words of Alghabra, or are you content to rely on third-hand obviously biased sources?


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> It's like saying "Harper supports Christian Law!" which could include:
> _If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death._
> (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)​


No, Christian law absolutely does not include that.


----------



## Macfury

The notion in Ontario was that the government would recognize all Sharia judgments and then reject those that did not follow Canadian law. It essentially would set up a second level of legally binding judgements. However, as the Charter note, we have one set of laws that applies to everyone.



fjnmusic said:


> Is there some consideration by the government to have Sharia law replace the current law in Canada? It is my understanding that any law that contravenes the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms would be struck down by the courts in Canada in any event. That's what the courts are for: interpreting and applying the law. In today's Canada for example, a man would not be given the right to hit his wife because they would interfere with her right to safety or security.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Two words: Tim Ball.
> 
> Until then, I owe you nothing, hypocrite.


Criticisms of Tim Ball are a dime a dozen for anyone who knows how to type G-o-o-g-l-e.

Your post has no source whatsoever. You haven't shown that Alghabra actually said anything like that, other than quoting (yet more) wingnut websites.


----------



## SINC

An excellent read, especially for JT and the hundreds he took to Paris last week:

Please remain calm: The Earth will heal itself - The Globe and Mail


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> So you feel it's okay to refer to women as "old hags." See, I don't believe it matters much whether they are public figures or not. Classless is classless.


Nope never said it. A lie is just a lie.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Nope never said it. A lie is just a lie.



Sure, but you're okay with MF using the term "old hag" as long as it's about a public figure. Quite the hypocrisy you got going there, amigo.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The notion in Ontario was that the government would recognize all Sharia judgments and then reject those that did not follow Canadian law. It essentially would set up a second level of legally binding judgements. However, as the Charter note, we have one set of laws that applies to everyone.


IIRC, the alternative system of legal judgements - in Divorce cases, none other - would apply only to all parties who agreed to make use of that system. None would have been forced to use it, and they could abandon the process, reverting to the standard court system at any time. 

So what the heck is all the fuss about?


----------



## Macfury

Yes. I don't believe that Canadian law should recognize alternative systems of legal judgements. The potential for abuse is massive. We could then get any religious splinter group setting up its own alternative justice system. It isn't enough that the Canadian legal system needs to recognize the result--it would also need to monitor the process. We already have a single justice system for all.



CubaMark said:


> IIRC, the alternative system of legal judgements - in Divorce cases, none other - would apply only to all parties who agreed to make use of that system. None would have been forced to use it, and they could abandon the process, reverting to the standard court system at any time.
> 
> So what the heck is all the fuss about?


----------



## rgray

Sharia councils in Britain 'lock women into marital captivity' | Daily Mail Online


> Sharia courts operating in the UK are treating women as second-class citizens, a damning report has revealed.
> The secretive Islamic tribunals, working mainly from mosques, settle financial and family disputes according to religious principles.
> But the parallel justice system runs against the law of the land and is condemning British Muslim women to ‘marital captivity’ while failing to protect them from domestic violence, an independent study found.
> In one controversial case, a sharia court refused to intervene even though a woman said her husband was denying her a divorce unless she gave him £10,000.
> In another instance, a woman who claimed to be married to an abusive husband was told by a laughing judge: ‘Why did you marry such a person?’
> Under Islamic law, men only need to say ‘I divorce you’ three times to separate from their wives while women need the sanction of clerics.


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> Sharia councils in Britain 'lock women into marital captivity' | Daily Mail Online


This is exactly what I was thinking of rgray. Our legal system can't monitor a parallel legal system for abuse.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Sure, but you're okay with MF using the term "old hag" as long as it's about a public figure. Quite the hypocrisy you got going there, amigo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nope I said quite the contrary:



screature said:


> I didn't saying anything about that now did I.* For the record no I am not*, but MF's comment wasn't personally directed to anyone here now was it? It was directed at political public figures.
> 
> Donald Trump is a piece of chite IMO, but I bet you have no problem with me saying that.
> 
> Your sense of offense is cherry picking as far as I can see.


Keep spinning the lie maybe someone will believe you.


----------



## Rps

How the Conservatives view the Liberals: naivety......how the Liberals view themselves: nativity. Just thought I'd stir things a little.:lmao:


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> How the Conservatives view the Liberals: naivety......how the Liberals view themselves: nativity. Just thought I'd stir things a little.:lmao:


Ha! Good one!


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Nope I said quite the contrary:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep spinning the lie maybe someone will believe you.


You mean spinning like this?



eMacMan said:


> Yep The Harper sure despised PETs Charter of Rights and Freedoms. *Despite my overall animosity towards PET*, he did get that one right.





screature said:


> He didn't despise it he questioned the legality of some parts of it... Even Quebec did as they did not sign. *Was PET God in your opinion?* Was he infallible? It seems you think so.
> 
> PET merely wanted to feed his ego and push it through so it was part of his "legacy".


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> You mean spinning like this?


Where was the lie?

And where was there any personal insult to you or any ehMac member?

Why don't you just keep carping about FATCA, something the Heir Apparent seems to be not too concerned about. 

You drop in and try to pretend like you know what you are talking about, you don't so why don't you just bugger off now. You clearly have no knowledge of the context and are just making a post becuase you don't like me.

Kind of reminds me of this song:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Where was the lie?


I thought that was petty weird.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I thought that was petty weird.


Not sure what you mean? Are you talking to me or eMacman?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Not sure what you mean? Are you talking to me or eMacman?


To you. I don't understand the point of eMacMan's post.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> To you. I don't understand the point of eMacMan's post.


Ok that is what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> To you. I don't understand the point of eMacMan's post.


The point was in bold. I made it quite clear that I really had little respect for PET, and that was spun to indicate that I thought Trudeau was a God.

I realize this is business as usual for the ConMeißter, to the point that he does not even clue in to the fact that he is doing it. Merely pointed it out as the pot was calling the kettle black.


----------



## FeXL

That's it? That's all it takes someone with a PhD to defend your position & win the argument? A link to a search engine, a few articles by a handful of Fruit Loops, Whackos, Warmists & Progressives (but I repeat myself) and you're done?

Hell, why didn't you say so? All this time I've been using facts & figures...

Here's a link to the search engine I use.

This is a roll your own kind of rebuttal. So, go ahead, click the link, type in the text, read a few documents & weep.

Now, consider yourself admonished, the argument won & the subject closed, _Doctor_...



CubaMark said:


> Criticisms of Tim Ball are a dime a dozen for anyone who knows how to type G-o-o-g-l-e.
> 
> Your post has no source whatsoever. You haven't shown that Alghabra actually said anything like that, other than quoting (yet more) wingnut websites.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/673147152709865472



> The Trudeau govt is a month old: #Ottawaspends tally so far: 6 spending announcements totalling $2.849 billion. *None to be spent in Canada.*


M'bold.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *The point was in bold. I made it quite clear that I really had little respect for PET, and that was spun to indicate that I thought Trudeau was a God.*
> 
> *I realize this is business as usual for the ConMeißter,* to the point that he does not even clue in to the fact that he is doing it. Merely pointed it out as the pot was calling the kettle black.


There was no point in your bold that addressed what was being discussed except maybe in your own mind. I asked you a question and in your mind that is spin. How is that spinning anything... it sure took you long enough to reply to the question.

Ok so you have little respect for PET either, on that we can agree. Do you have any respect for anyone?

What the f**k is that supposed to mean? Who is the ConMeißter? Maybe if you restricted yourself to speaking to people who were actually speaking to you it would be helpful and your posts would be less convoluted.

Just a thought.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/673147152709865472
> 
> M'bold.


Exactement, mon ami.


----------



## Rps

Okay, so let me derail this a little, if I may. The Liberals have promised no more first-past-the-post. So I offer the question to you. Wouldn't it make more sense to try election reform in the Senate? I know the Senate is appointed, but what if we apply some form of proportional representation to Snate appointments and effect a term limit on them. Might be a good idea to road test P.R. In the Senate before unleashing the hounds on the general public. Thoughts....


----------



## heavyall

I've always thought that picking senators should be done like jury duty -- you get randomly selected.


----------



## Rps

heavyall said:


> I've always thought that picking senators should be done like jury duty -- you get randomly selected.


Maybe, but at least they should have some parliament experience, such as a defeated member Federally or Provincially.......no more newscasters pleeeeeeeeeaaaaassse!


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> Okay, so let me derail this a little, if I may. The Liberals have promised no more first-past-the-post. So I offer the question to you. Wouldn't it make more sense to try election reform in the Senate? I know the Senate is appointed, but what if we apply some form of proportional representation to Snate appointments and effect a term limit on them. Might be a good idea to road test P.R. In the Senate before unleashing the hounds on the general public. Thoughts....


If elected which House's will should have supremacy?

What you are suggesting requires opening of the Constitution...was opening the Constitution part of an election platform you personally supported in the last election campaign?


----------



## Rps

BigDL, I'm an equal and elected Senate, with term limits kind of guy. I would also like to see the Senate as the part with superemacy.
If we are thinking of pro-rep elections, by adjusting the Senate term, the PM could assign Senators based on pro-rep, without too much hassle I think. Quebec probably wouldn't want to give up its share of the seats, but that is another issue.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> BigDL, I'm an equal and elected Senate, with term limits kind of guy. I would also like to see the Senate as the part with superemacy.
> 
> If we are thinking of pro-rep elections, by adjusting the Senate term, the PM could assign Senators based on pro-rep, without too much hassle I think. Quebec probably wouldn't want to give up its share of the seats, but that is another issue.



Nor the maritimes provinces, since they can a disproportionately large representation under the current system. Fact is, the PM can choose senators pretty much anyway he chooses based on the current model. Leaving 22 senate seats open was foolhardiness on the part of the previous PM, and probably more than a little irresponsible. Let's hope the new guy chooses wisely. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> BigDL, I'm an equal and elected Senate, with term limits kind of guy. I would also like to see the Senate as the part with superemacy.
> If we are thinking of pro-rep elections, by adjusting the Senate term, the PM could assign Senators based on pro-rep, without too much hassle I think. Quebec probably wouldn't want to give up its share of the seats, but that is another issue.


Ontario and Quebec made out like bandits with the number of senators at Confederation and thereafter with the land expansion that the original colonies gained. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia got the Senators at Confederation then PEI. The Maritimes provinces received no land deals.

The west got huge swaths of land but few Senators at the time of their joining Confederation.

How a PM chooses senators is up to the PM in question. However changing the method of selection requires a constitutional amendment (per the Harper reference to the Supreme Court.) 

Any real change to the Senate's appointments or other reforms require opening up the Constitution.

The Senate has lobbyists sitting (senators that sit on the Boards of Directors of Corporations) as legislators. If for no other reason the anachronism of Senate should be history like the other Upper Chambers that inflicted our land once upon a time.


----------



## Rps

I am not so sure it would be wise to get rid of the Senate. It should be amended to be an elected engine of governance. The issue I see is that when you have a majority government you loose your democracy....and the larger the majority the more you loose. The Senate should be an engine to temper that loss.


----------



## heavyall

Rps said:


> Maybe, but at least they should have some parliament experience, such as a defeated member Federally or Provincially.......no more newscasters pleeeeeeeeeaaaaassse!


What I mean is they should not be politicians at all. Anyone who wants the job should be automatically disqualified to do it. make them a real chamber of sober second thought, with a real reflection of the cross section of the public.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I first posted about this a couple weeks back.

Maths is hard...

Liberals to announce that changes to federal tax brackets won’t add up



> The Trudeau government will acknowledge this week that its tax hike on the richest Canadians won’t cover the entire cost of its promised tax cut for the middle class, adding to the fiscal pressures on coming federal budgets, sources said.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Liberals had promised the lost revenue from their “middle-class tax cut” would be offset by a new tax bracket for income of more than $200,000.


----------



## FeXL

h/t SDA.

REVEALED: Elections Canada paid Assembly of First Nations almost $1M for "voter outreach" -- while key AFN members campaigned against Harper



> Elections Canada offered a sole sourced contract worth nearly $1 million to the Assembly of First Nations to engage in voter outreach even as key members of the organization made highly partisan statements calling for the defeat of the Conservative government.
> 
> *Documents obtained through access to information detail a contract worth up to $975,000 that included a clause calling for the AFN to be non-partisan while acting as a supplier of services to Elections Canada. Under a listing of “Minimum Essential Requirements” in the statement of work, Elections Canada included this statement, “Certification that they are able to comply with an avoidance of political partisanship provision.”*


M'bold.

From the comments at SDA:



> Elections Canada has long had a dubious relationship with Native voters. Consider this linked story from 2006, how the Desnethe- Missinippi- Churchill River riding broke every rule in the book to elect a Liberal candidate, Well over 100% of registered citizens voted,3-1/2 hours after polls closed an extra 240 people voted, 100% Liberal; plus they were offered a prize of a flat screen TV to cast a ballot.
> 
> *These actions were raised in a Parliamentary hearing and EC officials saw nothing, did nothing and offered no explanation for their actions.*


Despicable.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> BigDL, I'm an equal and elected Senate, with term limits kind of guy. I would also like to see the Senate as the part with superemacy.
> If we are thinking of pro-rep elections, by adjusting the Senate term, the PM could assign Senators based on pro-rep, without too much hassle I think. *Quebec probably wouldn't want to give up its share of the seats, but that is another issue.*


Indeed that is another issue and why it will never happen.

Despite having a minority of representation they want to have at least 50% of the say the when it comes to the Constitution... Marie Antoinette said "Let them eat cake."

And so it has ever been with Quebec and its relationship with the rest of Canada.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> If elected which House's will should have supremacy?
> 
> What you are suggesting requires opening of the Constitution...was opening the Constitution part of an election platform you personally supported in the last election campaign?


Changing the nature of the relationship between the House of Commons and the Senate in the Canadian Parliamentary system* DOES* require opening the Constitution. 

Please educate yourself, it would be helpful here if your posts were based on fact rather than on your own ill educated opinion.

Sorry if that offends you but it is just the truth.

No law/legislation in Canada can receive Royal Consent without the Senate voting in favour of it. Full stop.

If the Senate votes down a Bill then it needs to be sent back to House Commons and Committee for further study and review, and then after that process it needs to go back to the Senate to receive Royal Consent where they can say that is not good enough and then the process starts all over again. Or it just dies.

The Senate grants all laws/legislation to come into effect. You may wish it to be another way, but that is in fact how it is now under our current constitution.

Thus unless JT starts appointing a lot of Senators he has a tough road to hoe in front of him in terms of getting legislation passed any time soon.

It seems you have little understanding of how the Canadian Parliamentary system works and why you don't work on Parliament Hill.


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> h/t SDA.
> 
> REVEALED: Elections Canada paid Assembly of First Nations almost $1M for "voter outreach" -- while key AFN members campaigned against Harper
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> From the comments at SDA:
> 
> 
> 
> Despicable.


Elections Canada, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Liberal Party of Canada.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Changing the nature of the relationship between the House of Commons and the Senate in the Canadian Parliamentary system* DOES* require opening the Constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> Please educate yourself, it would be helpful here if your posts were based on fact rather than on your own ill educated opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if that offends you but it is just the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> No law/legislation in Canada can receive Royal Consent without the Senate voting in favour of it. Full stop.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Senate votes down a Bill then it needs to be sent back to House Commons and Committee for further study and review, and then after that process it needs to go back to the Senate to receive Royal Consent where they can say that is not good enough and then the process starts all over again. Or it just dies.
> 
> 
> 
> The Senate grants all laws/legislation to come into effect. You may wish it to be another way, but that is in fact how it is now under our current constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> Thus unless JT starts appointing a lot of Senators he has a tough road to hoe in front of him in terms of getting legislation passed any time soon.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you have little understanding of how the Canadian Parliamentary system works and why you don't work on Parliament Hill.



Two things: "royal assent" is approval by the Governor General as representative of the Queen, which occurs after the Senate's approval. Also, the expression is "tough row to hoe" (a farming term). Other than that, you're right on the money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Two things: *"royal assent" is approval by the Governor General as representative of the Queen*, which occurs after the Senate's approval. Also, the expression is "*tough row to hoe" (a farming term). *Other than that, you're right on the money.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you kidding me?! As you should know the GG stamp of approval is just a formality so please do not pretend that it is anything more than that.

It is more than that in common nomenclature:

*tough row to hoe
tough row to hoe and hard row to hoe
Fig. a difficult task to carry out; a heavy set of burdens. It's a tough row to hoe, but hoe it you will. This is not an easy task. This is a hard row to hoe.*

Do you really feel the need to be so petty all the time?

So get off your high horse and speak plainly to people rather than taking the condescending approach. 

It would be appreciated by me at least. 

I know I am right on the money, but it is good that at least that you can acknowledge that.

I know you were trying to "reach out" but it was not without trying to get in a couple of "digs" which made your post seem a little less sincere.

If I misunderstood I apologize.... But truth be told I think I understood you exactly.

Once again I could be wrong... It happens from time to time.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> Are you kidding me?! As you should know the GG stamp of approval is just a formality so please do not pretend that it is anything more than that.
> 
> It is more than that in common nomenclature:
> 
> *tough row to hoe
> tough row to hoe and hard row to hoe
> Fig. a difficult task to carry out; a heavy set of burdens. It's a tough row to hoe, but hoe it you will. This is not an easy task. This is a hard row to hoe.*
> 
> Do you really feel the need to be so petty all the time?
> 
> So get off your high horse and speak plainly to people rather than taking the condescending approach.
> 
> It would be appreciated by me at least.


What you say.

What I hear: Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw...


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> What you say.
> 
> What I hear: Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw...


I was not talking to you and your post males no sense at all... had a good night out on the town?


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> I was not talking to you and your post males no sense at all... had a good night out on the town?


Got lost coming back from the weather thread...


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Are you kidding me?! As you should know the GG stamp of approval is just a formality so please do not pretend that it is anything more than that.
> 
> 
> 
> It is more than that in common nomenclature:
> 
> 
> 
> *tough row to hoe
> 
> tough row to hoe and hard row to hoe
> 
> Fig. a difficult task to carry out; a heavy set of burdens. It's a tough row to hoe, but hoe it you will. This is not an easy task. This is a hard row to hoe.*
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really feel the need to be so petty all the time?
> 
> 
> 
> So get off your high horse and speak plainly to people rather than taking the condescending approach.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be appreciated by me at least.
> 
> 
> 
> I know I am right on the money, but it is good that at least that you can acknowledge that.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you were trying to "reach out" but it was not without trying to get in a couple of "digs" which made your post seem a little less sincere.
> 
> 
> 
> If I misunderstood I apologize.... But truth be told I think I understood you exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I could be wrong... It happens from time to time.



I was correcting you because you're wrong, Mr. High and Mighty. I get the same thing coming in my direction, so you should be able to receive as well as you give. Royal Assent cannot be achieved in the Senate, ever, which is what you had said. Only the royal representative can assent to any bill. You also said "road" not "row", so once again you stand corrected. I wouldn't correct your mistakes if you didn't come across as having the only valid opinion on this forum. Have a nice evening.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw, Bob Loblaw...


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> I was correcting you because you're wrong, Mr. High and Mighty. I get the same thing coming in my direction, *so you should be able to receive as well as you give.* Royal Assent cannot be achieved in the Senate, ever, which is what you had said. Only the royal representative can assent to any bill. You also said "road" not "row", so once again you stand corrected. I wouldn't correct your mistakes if you didn't come across as having the only valid opinion on this forum. Have a nice evening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


We've been down that road (or is that row) before. His brain is not wired in a manner that would allow him to appreciate the irony.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Here already. Let the countdown commence...



> I’m pleased to announce the first plane carrying Syrian refugees arrives in Canada tomorrow at 9:15 pm ET. #WelcomeRefugees
> 
> — Justin Trudeau (@JustinTrudeau) December 9, 2015


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I was correcting you because you're wrong, Mr. High and Mighty. I get the same thing coming in my direction, so you should be able to receive as well as you give. Royal Assent cannot be achieved in the Senate, ever, which is what you had said. Only the royal representative can assent to any bill. You also said "road" not "row", so once again you stand corrected. I wouldn't correct your mistakes if you didn't come across as having the only valid opinion on this forum. Have a nice evening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No you are wrong.

Modernisation of Royal Assent in Canada

Do your homework. Royal Assent can be achieved without the presence of the GG. Capiche?

Step one, the House of Commons votes in favour of a Bill. Step 2 to Royal Assent cannot happen without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill. Step 3, which is ceremonial tradition, can happen without the GG being present to achieve Royal Assent. Read and understand.

You seem to think you are so high and mighty all the time and know everything about everything but you do not.

Regrading road and row, you never made a typo in your life? Really???!!! You knew what what I was saying and just took exception because it was a typo made by me.

This is not an issue of opinion, of which you have plenty, but of fact, of which you seem to have few.


----------



## heavyall

It's funny that some people still think that the Governor General still has real powers. Comical really.


----------



## SINC

Kelly McParland: Liberals owe Canadians a referendum before ditching a successful election model after 150 years | National Post


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## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> We've been down that road (or is that row) before. His brain is not wired in a manner that would allow him to appreciate the irony.



True true. And yet I never give up hope.


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Kelly McParland: Liberals owe Canadians a referendum before ditching a successful election model after 150 years | National Post



Agreed. No government can unilaterally overturn the governmental model it uses. It requires the consent of all the participants in said governmental system. Even making a minor change to the Senate powers is a big step.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> It's funny that some people still think that the Governor General still has real powers. Comical really.



The Governor General DOES have real powers. It's just that they would likely be replaced by the PM if they ever used them.


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## fjnmusic

screature said:


> No you are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Modernisation of Royal Assent in Canada
> 
> 
> 
> Do your homework. Royal Assent can be achieved without the presence of the GG. Capiche?
> 
> 
> 
> Step one, the House of Commons votes in favour of a Bill. Step 2 to Royal Assent cannot happen without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill. Step 3, which is ceremonial tradition, can happen without the GG being present to achieve Royal Assent. Read and understand.



Nope.

I can read and I understand. It would appear you need to follow your own advice. If the GG is not present, a rep of the GG must be there, just as the GG is a rep for the British Monarch. The Senate does not give Royal Assent. Game, set, and match.

Royal. Assent. Straightforward concept. 

http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/senate/proceduralNotes/procedural-notes-6-e.htm


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Nope.
> 
> I can read and I understand. It would appear you need to follow your own advice. If the GG is not present, a rep of the GG must be there, just as the GG is a rep for the British Monarch. The Senate does not give Royal Assent. Game, set, and match.
> 
> Royal. Assent. Straightforward concept.
> 
> Senate Procedural Notes - Royal Assent
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It seems you can't. Read, learn and understand:



> PROCEDURE FOR WRITTEN DECLARATION
> 
> As with a *traditional Royal Assent ceremony, it is cabinet that decides when Royal Assent by written declaration will take place.* In contrast to a traditional ceremony, the exact time and location that a written procedure will take place is also determined by the availability of the Governor General *or the Justice of the Supreme Court acting as his or her deputy on the given day. Generally, when the Governor General is available, the written declaration will occur at Rideau Hall. If, however, the Governor General is unavailable and a Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada acting as deputy of the Governor General will signify Royal Assent, it normally takes place at the Supreme Court. *However, *in exceptional circumstances, such as when the procedure must take place after business hours, it may take place at an alternate location of the Justice’s choosing. In addition, under the Act, no location is specified for the signifying of Royal Assent by written declaration; consequently, Royal Assent may be given outside of Ottawa.*
> 
> The participants required for Royal Assent by written declaration are the Governor General *or a deputy of the Governor General, the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Senate Principal Clerk of Chamber Operations and Procedure and, at the government’s request, a representative of the Privy Council Office. If a supply bill is to be given Royal Assent, the Speaker of the House of Commons and a House table officer are also present. The Royal Assent Act also allows for the attendance of interested senators or members of Parliament.*
> 
> When a written declaration of Royal Assent is to take place, the Clerk of the Parliaments prepares a letter indicating that the bill(s) listed in the appendix to the letter have been passed by both houses and that both houses request that Royal Assent be granted to the bill(s). This letter, along with the parchment(s) of the bill(s), are presented to the Governor General *or his or her deputy by the Clerk of the Parliaments much in the same manner as during a traditional ceremony.* If there are any supply bills to receive Royal Assent, it is the Speaker of the House of Commons that presents these bills to the Governor General. After the bills have been duly presented, the Governor General signs a declaration of Royal Assent, which is witnessed by the Clerk of the Parliaments as to the date, time and place.
> 
> After the written declaration procedure is complete, the Secretary to the Governor General prepares a letter to the Speakers of the Senate and House of Commons formally advising them that Royal Assent has been signified to the bill(s) listed in the schedule to the letter. These letters are then entrusted to the Senate Principal Clerk of Chamber Operations and Procedure, who delivers them to the two Speakers without delay. The Speakers then read the letter in their respective chamber so as to notify their members that Royal Assent has been granted to certain bills, as required by section 4 of the Royal Assent Act. Royal Assent is only deemed to have been granted to a bill after both chambers have been notified. While, pursuant to Standing Order 28(5) of the House of Commons, notice of Royal Assent by written declaration may be given when the House of Commons is adjourned by publishing the notice in the Journals, the Senate must be sitting in order for the letter to be read in the chamber by the Speaker.


The GG presence is purely ceremonially and he need not be present or directly give consent. There are other*people* who can do it just fine:



> the Justice of the Supreme Court acting as his or her deputy on the given day





> The participants required for Royal Assent by written declaration are the Governor General *or a deputy of the Governor General, the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Senate Principal Clerk of Chamber Operations and Procedure and, at the government’s request, a representative of the Privy Council Office.*


No game set and match, you seem to be willfully blind to the exceptions that happen all the time and again it is purely ceremonial.

Like FeXl said if you think that the GG is anything but a ceremonial figure head in a modern Canada you are simply delusional.

In case you missed the point I was making is that without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill it cannot receive Royal Assent once the Senate votes in favour of a Bill Royal Assent follows almost immediately without exception, the 3rd step is purely a traditional formal ceremony and the GG need not be present.

It seems passing strange that you would endorse the GG to be necessary to be present in a ceremony for a Bill to be passed into law...seeing as you declare yourself to be a "progressive".

If anything I would expect you to say the GG should have nothing to do with at all as he/she is merely an appointee of the PM.

In a modern Canada we should be more/equally concerned about removing the office of the GG in its entirety than eliminating the Senate, which can be reformed.

The PM could and should be the "Queen's/King's representative as a duly elected official and not just some appointed figure head.

In terms of ceremony and tradition, yes someone representing the GG needs to be present, but that is it that is all, the GG need not be there and that is why it just goes to show how much of a rubber stamp the the GG's office is...

Can you imagine for a moment that after passing through the House of Commons and the Senate a Bill would not receive Royal Assent by the GG or his representative what an uproar there would be? Has it ever happened and if so under what conditions that you are aware of that would be justifiable or ever happened? 

For practical purposes once the Senate passes a Bill that has also been passed by the House of Commons the Bill will receive Royal Assent and come into law.

Sorry that I did not make myself fully clear in my original post but anyone without a bone to pick would know that what I said is just reality that is not rooted in some antiquated ceremonially formality that still does not require the GG to be there.

You said and the reason why this stupid debate lingers on:



fjnmusic said:


> Two things: * "royal assent" is approval by the Governor General as representative of the Queen,* which occurs after the Senate's approval. Also, the expression is "tough row to hoe" (a farming term). Other than that, you're right on the money.


It is not the case in fact as I have pointed out numerous times now. Get over yourself and your bone picking just to look like the "big man on campus" and look at the bigger picture... You seem to have some difficulty with that.

I know you need the feel the need to be right when debating over such issues with me as a dilettante, but some times you just get in over your head as this stuff is not your bread and butter. It is mine and so please forgive me for not expressing the obvious to you and your consequential and consistent nit picking that was was completely unnecessary.

The reality is this: If House of Commons and the Senate vote in favour of a Bill it* WILL *receive Royal Assent cut and dry that is the reality.

If that makes you feel like you are more intelligent/knowledgeable than me so be it, but that is your problem and not mine. Sometimes people in the know realize when a rubber stamp is just a rubber stamp and can acknowledge it.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> It seems you can't. Read, learn and understand:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The GG presence is purely ceremonially and he need not be present or directly give consent. There are other*people* who can do it just fine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No game set and match, you seem to be willfully blind to the exceptions that happen all the time and again it is purely ceremonial.
> 
> 
> 
> Like FeXl said if you think that the GG is anything but a ceremonial figure head in a modern Canada you are simply delusional.
> 
> 
> 
> In case you missed the point I was making is that without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill it cannot receive Royal Assent once the Senate votes in favour of a Bill Royal Assent follows almost immediately without exception, the 3rd step is purely a traditional formal ceremony and the GG need not be present.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems passing strange that you would endorse the GG to be necessary to be present in a ceremony for a Bill to be passed into law...seeing as you declare yourself to be a "progressive".
> 
> 
> 
> If anything I would expect you to say the GG should have nothing to do with at all as he/she is merely an appointee of the PM.
> 
> 
> 
> In a modern Canada we should be more/equally concerned about removing the office of the GG in its entirety than eliminating the Senate, which can be reformed.
> 
> 
> 
> The PM could and should be the "Queen's/King's representative as a duly elected official and not just some appointed figure head.
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of ceremony and tradition, yes someone representing the GG needs to be present, but that is it that is all, the GG need not be there and that is why it just goes to show how much of a rubber stamp the the GG's office is...
> 
> 
> 
> Can you imagine for a moment that after passing through the House of Commons and the Senate a Bill would not receive Royal Assent by the GG or his representative what an uproar there would be? Has it ever happened and if so under what conditions that you are aware of that would be justifiable or ever happened?
> 
> 
> 
> For practical purposes once the Senate passes a Bill that has also been passed by the House of Commons the Bill will receive Royal Assent and come into law.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry that I did not make myself fully clear in my original post but anyone without a bone to pick would know that what I said is just reality that is not rooted in some antiquated ceremonially formality that still does not require the GG to be there.
> 
> 
> 
> You said and the reason why this stupid debate lingers on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the case in fact as I have pointed out numerous times now. Get over yourself and your bone picking just to look like the "big man on campus" and look at the bigger picture... You seem to have some difficulty with that.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you need the feel the need to be right when debating over such issues with me as a dilettante, but some times you just get in over your head as this stuff is not your bread and butter. It is mine and so please forgive me for not expressing the obvious to you and your consequential and consistent nit picking that was was completely unnecessary.
> 
> 
> 
> The reality is this: If House of Commons and the Senate vote in favour of a Bill it* WILL *receive Royal Assent cut and dry that is the reality.
> 
> 
> 
> If that makes you feel like you are more intelligent/knowledgeable than me so be it, but that is your problem and not mine. Sometimes people in the know realize when a rubber stamp is just a rubber stamp and can acknowledge it.



You have a very long and arduous process for agreeing with what I just said. The Governor General provides royal assent, or a number of substitutions can be made, but a bill cannot be passed without royal assent. What do you suppose the word "Royal" stands for here? 

I'll bet you're a lot of fun at cocktail parties. 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> What do you suppose the word "Royal" stands for here?


Ceremonial hat tip to our heritage, nothing more.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Ceremonial hat tip to our heritage, nothing more.



Perhaps, but you can't bypass this step no matter how much you'd like to. That's all I'm saying.


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## SINC

The sooner we can bypass it, the sooner we will truly become an independent country.


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## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps, but you can't bypass this step no matter how much you'd like to. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good Grief!

Fjnm how do you put up with the inaneness?


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## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Good Grief!
> 
> 
> 
> Fjnm how do you put up with the inaneness?



I teach school children all day.


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps, but you can't bypass this step no matter how much you'd like to. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And you're still wrong about that. All it takes to "bypass" it, is to get someone else to do it. Which is done routinely.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> And you're still wrong about that. All it takes to "bypass" it, is to get someone else to do it. Which is done routinely.



That's not bypassing the step then, is it? In fact it's just the opposite. It's making sure the step is completed. It's respecting the process so that royal assent can be given. No Royal assent, no new law. The GG COULD choose not to approve something if they really wanted to, but they never exercise that power. The point is, they COULD. I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. How long have you been Canadian? 


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## rgray




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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> That's not bypassing the step then, is it? In fact it's just the opposite. It's making sure the step is completed. It's respecting the process so that royal assent can be given. No Royal assent, no new law. The GG COULD choose not to approve something if they really wanted to, but they never exercise that power. The point is, they COULD. I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. How long have you been Canadian?


There's nothing actually "Royal" about it. They could get the janitor to stand in for it if they wanted to. It's window dressing. 

No, the GG cannot make any decisions themself. Their sole job is to rubber stamp whatever the PM tells them to do. The job is ENTIRELY ceremonial.


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## SINC

^

Exactly. Royalty has no business in government and until we drop the queen and the royal charade, we will not be truly independent.


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## Rps

SINC said:


> The sooner we can bypass it, the sooner we will truly become an independent country.


We are functionally an independent country Sinc. The issue I see is the waste of money our legacy institutions cost, and in fact do we actually need them. Be honest, wouldn't Black Rod be a great gig! 

I think the GG, and our Parliament itself, is a waste of time and money......I am a Republic guy who also thinks we should vote for our leader. But, if you are eliminating traditions, which do you choose, and where do you stop?

Aren't these traditions what makes us, us?


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> You have a very long and arduous process for agreeing with what I just said. *The Governor General provides royal assent*, or a number of substitutions can be made, but a bill cannot be passed without royal assent. What do you suppose the word "Royal" stands for here?
> 
> I'll bet you're a lot of fun at cocktail parties.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He alone does not hve power to do so, there are others that can... You don not seem capable of understanding the finer details in your black and white world. Here is what I said:



> BigDL said:
> 
> 
> 
> If elected which House's will should have supremacy?
> 
> What you are suggesting requires opening of the Constitution...was opening the Constitution part of an election platform you personally supported in the last election campaign?
> 
> 
> 
> Changing the nature of the relationship between the House of Commons and the Senate in the Canadian Parliamentary system* DOES* require opening the Constitution.
> 
> Please educate yourself, it would be helpful here if your posts were based on fact rather than on your own ill educated opinion.
> 
> Sorry if that offends you but it is just the truth.
> 
> No law/legislation in Canada can receive Royal Consent without the Senate voting in favour of it. Full stop.
> 
> If the Senate votes down a Bill then it needs to be sent back to House Commons and Committee for further study and review, and then after that process i*t needs to go back to the Senate to receive Royal Consent where they can say that is not good enough and then the process starts all over again. Or it just dies.
> 
> The Senate grants all laws/legislation to come into effect. You may wish it to be another way, but that is in fact how it is now under our current constitution.*
> 
> Thus unless JT starts appointing a lot of Senators he has a tough road to hoe in front of him in terms of getting legislation passed any time soon.
> 
> It seems you have little understanding of how the Canadian Parliamentary system works and why you don't work on Parliament Hill.
Click to expand...

It is simply the truth. Without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill it will not receive Roayl Assent, it does not mean that the Senate grants Royal Assent it means that without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill Royal Assent it cannot happen. The traditional ceremony is just that... the Senate has the final word, the GG just provides a rubber stamp and would never ever not rubber stamp a bill that was voted in favour of by Both the House of Commons and the Senate. Period.

Do you now understand? And typically Royal Assent is granted in the Senate with or without the GG being present. It is simply a traditional ceremony.

Thank God all you teach is children, but then again maybe not because you do not provide the full truth or reality.


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## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> We are functionally an independent country Sinc. The issue I see is the waste of money our legacy institutions cost, and in fact do we actually need them. Be honest, wouldn't Black Rod be a great gig!
> 
> 
> 
> I think the GG, and our Parliament itself, is a waste of time and money......I am a Republic guy who also thinks we should vote for our leader. But, if you are eliminating traditions, which do you choose, and where do you stop?
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't these traditions what makes us, us?



Yes, they are, Rps. At the risk of sounding like a parrot, one could say if someone doesn't like our traditions, they could always move to the U.S. Best do it now, because if Trump ever becomes president, they're likely to become a LOT tougher on immigrants. Personally, I think Canada gets it right in so many ways that are Americans friends just don't understand. 


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## fjnmusic

screature said:


> He alone does not hve power to do so, there are others that can... You don not seem capable of understanding the finer details in your black and white world. Here is what I said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is simply the truth. Without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill it will not receive Roayl Assent, it does not mean that the Senate grants Royal Assent it means that without the Senate voting in favour of a Bill Royal Assent it cannot happen. The traditional ceremony is just that... the Senate has the final word, the GG just provides a rubber stamp and would never ever not rubber stamp a bill that was voted in favour of by Both the House of Commons and the Senate. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you now understand? And typically Royal Assent is granted in the Senate with or without the GG being present. It is simply a traditional ceremony.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank God all you teach is children, but then again maybe not because you do not provide the full truth or reality.



Lecture done? And don't you dare criticize my manners ever again when you act like an asshole and throw that personal insult in at the last moment. I am done discussing with you because you do not know how to discuss. 

House of Commons > Senate > GG or rep for Royal Assent

That is the model we use whether you like it or not. You seem to suggest Riyal Assent does not even exist. I'm glad you don't teach children. 


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## Rps

Frank, I sometimes wonder if our getting it right was because we had a fluid "constitution" prior to Mr. Trudeau, the senior, formalizing it. The U.S. Spends most of its time defending theirs rather than moving with the times. Our experience with that will soon be coming. The issue with the in stone variety is that half the people take the thing literally and the other half wondering what was meant by the original writers.....a more fluid approach, which is what we had, eliminated this discussion.


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## Macfury

I like the US approach. the stupidity of some people in failing to understand the Constitution does not undermine it.



Rps said:


> Frank, I sometimes wonder if our getting it right was because we had a fluid "constitution" prior to Mr. Trudeau, the senior, formalizing it. The U.S. Spends most of its time defending theirs rather than moving with the times. Our experience with that will soon be coming. The issue with the in stone variety is that half the people take the thing literally and the other half wondering what was meant by the original writers.....a more fluid approach, which is what we had, eliminated this discussion.


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## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> Frank, I sometimes wonder if our getting it right was because we had a fluid "constitution" prior to Mr. Trudeau, the senior, formalizing it. The U.S. Spends most of its time defending theirs rather than moving with the times. Our experience with that will soon be coming. The issue with the in stone variety is that half the people take the thing literally and the other half wondering what was meant by the original writers.....a more fluid approach, which is what we had, eliminated this discussion.



I dunno. I think fluid is useful, but I also think the Senate is a great idea in theory. It's when it gets abused In practice that we question its purpose. A place for "sober second thought" is at least as useful as Parliament itself in my opinion. It means laws must be carefully considers before they are arbitrarily passed. The GG may be not much more than a rubber stamp, but the Senate definitely serves its purpose, providing that Senators are chosen wisely and with as little political bias as possible. Tommy Banks for example has served well as an Alberta Senator and a promoter of the Arts in Canada. 


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## rgray




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## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I like the US approach. the stupidity of some people in failing to understand the Constitution does not undermine it.


Except where those individuals happen to hold a great deal of power and do everything they can to bypass it. However the same is true in Canada. 

One major purpose of any constitution to protect the citizens from the Government particularly in situations where emotion threatens to trump reason.


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## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Except where those individuals happen to hold a great deal of power and do everything they can to bypass it. However the same is true in Canada.
> 
> One major purpose of any constitution to protect the citizens from the Government particularly in situations where emotion threatens to trump reason.



I see what you did there. To trump reason. I can just picture how often a certain individual, were he president, would find a way to trump reason. 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> I see what you did there. To trump reason. I can just picture how often a certain individual, were he president, would find a way to trump reason.


He's the only one in the race right now who actually is speaking reasonably about those particular issues. Everyone else is either too stupid to realize that he's right, or too afraid to be seen agreeing with him to speak up.


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## rgray




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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Lecture done? *And don't you dare criticize my manners ever again when you act like an asshole *and throw that personal insult in at the last moment. I am done discussing with you because you do not know how to discuss.
> 
> House of Commons > Senate > GG or rep for Royal Assent
> 
> That is the model we use whether you like it or not. You seem to suggest Riyal Assent does not even exist. I'm glad you don't teach children.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Asshole??? Yep that seems to be your favorite word these days so why I am I not surprised???!!!



> House of Commons > Senate > GG *or rep *for Royal Assent


Strangely you didn't mention that before until I mentioned it. Do you think it is the way it should be? Why are you all of a sudden concerned with the traditional ceremony that involves the GG "or his rep"? 

GET THIS... IT ISA CEREMONY!!!! Once HoC and the Senate have voted in favoor of a Bill is it is done except for the rubber stamp!!! My god you are a belligerent man when it comes to reality.

NO, repeat NO GG or rep would not sign into law a Bill that had been voted in favour of by Parliament. GET IT.... now get over yourself and your infinite nitpicking to feel like you are somehow more educated or experienced beyond your means.

You would do you and your students well to tell them the truth and reality rather than just the formal rules. Royal Assent is a pure formality and the GG not be present as was your first statement. So admit your error and move on, but your over inflated ego will not let you go that as you are a "teacher of children" and have tot each them just the basics and not complicated realities.

Hey buddy you threw the last grenade, it just seems like you don't like it when it is lobed back at you!

Keep living in your duplicitous world, I couldn't care less.

I wish your students could see how you reply to other people... I think they would be less than impressed.

Finally yes Royal Assent is granted by the GG or his/her rep but unless extraordinary circumstances apply the* SENATE is where it happens* Which is what I stated in the first place) and does not happen without the Senates consent.



> No law/legislation in Canada can receive Royal Consent without the Senate voting in favour of it. Full stop.
> 
> If the Senate votes down a Bill then it needs to be sent back to the House Commons and Committee for further study and review, and then after that process it needs to go back to the *Senate* (edit: the place) to receive Royal Consent where they can say that is not good enough and then the process starts all over again. Or it just dies.


That is a simple fact.

Bills have been sent back the to House Commons for further review by the Senate. Show me more than in ancient history where a GG or his/her *representative* ever denied Royal Assent to a Bill that had been voted upon in favour of by Parliament (House of commons and the Senate)? Ever!


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Asshole??? Yep that seems to be your favorite word these days so why I am I not surprised???!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strangely you didn't mention that before until I mentioned it. Do you think it is the way it should be? Why are you all of a sudden concerned with the traditional ceremony that involves the GG "or his rep"?
> 
> 
> 
> GET THIS... IT ISA CEREMONY!!!! Once HoC and the Senate have voted in favoor of a Bill is it is done except for the rubber stamp!!! My god you are a belligerent man when it comes to reality.
> 
> 
> 
> NO, repeat NO GG or rep would not sign into law a Bill that had been voted in favour of by Parliament. GET IT.... now get over yourself and your infinite nitpicking to feel like you are somehow more educated or experienced beyond your means.
> 
> 
> 
> You would do you and your students well to tell them the truth and reality rather than just the formal rules. Royal Assent is a pure formality and the GG not be present as was your first statement. So admit your error and move on, but your over inflated ego will not let you go that as you are a "teacher of children" and have tot each them just the basics and not complicated realities.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey buddy you threw the last grenade, it just seems like you don't like it when it is lobed back at you!
> 
> 
> 
> Keep living in your duplicitous world, I couldn't care less.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish your students could see how you reply to other people... I think they would be less than impressed.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally yes Royal Assent is granted by the GG or his/her rep but unless extraordinary circumstances apply the* SENATE is where it happens* Which is what I stated in the first place) and does not happen without the Senates consent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a simple fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Bills have been sent back the to House Commons for further review by the Senate. Show me more than in ancient history where a GG or his/her *representative* ever denied Royal Assent to a Bill that had been voted upon in favour of by Parliament (House of commons and the Senate)? Ever!



Get a life, Steve. You devote far more energy to this argument than it's worth. Fine, you win, provided you can agree that Royal Assent is a necessary step in the process of passing a bill, regardless of who stands in to provide that Royal Assent. I'm tired of arguing with you about it. 


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## screature

rgray said:


>


It would be be funny if it was true but it isn't therefore if is not...

Sent from a bleeding heart Lib who has no words of his own to express his feelings.

I guess retirement means you no longer have to express yourself in your own words but just simply allow for others to you to do it in shorthand for you.

Must be nice.


----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> He's the only one in the race right now who actually is speaking reasonably about those particular issues. Everyone else is either too stupid to realize that he's right, or too afraid to be seen agreeing with him to speak up.



He certainly does represent a certain type of American voter. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Get a life, Steve. You devote far more energy to this argument than it's worth. Fine, you win, provided you can agree that Royal Assent is a necessary step in the process of passing a bill, regardless of who stands in to provide that Royal Assent. I'm tired of arguing with you about it.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It seems I have more of a life than you do...

I have time to do this, manage an investment property purchase all the while looking for a new job while my wife is unemployed, looking after her 97 year old Dad and we still have to make the budget meet ends at the end of the month. Maybe you just are not busy enough.

You know nothing about me and my life or lack thereof.

So all I can say at this point based on your first statement is P**S OFF!!


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> It seems I have more of a life than you do...
> 
> 
> 
> I have time to do this, manage an investment property purchase all the while looking for a new job while my wife is unemployed, looking after her 97 year old Dad and we still have to make the budget meet ends at the end of the month. Maybe you just are not busy enough.
> 
> 
> 
> You know nothing about me and my life or lack thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> So all I can say at this point based on your first statement is P**S OFF!!



Good for you. Have a nice weekend or what's left of it. As requested, I will go and P**S OFF now. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Use a tissue when you are finished!



fjnmusic said:


> Good for you. Have a nice weekend or what's left of it. As requested, I will go and P**S OFF now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Use a tissue when you are finished!


Apparently it is much more hygienic. But truth be told p**s is quite sterile unless one is sick.

At least that is the information I have.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Good for you. Have a nice weekend or what's left of it. As requested, I will go and P**S OFF now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sorry for the p**s off comment, I let my emotions get the better of me.

You have a nice week ahead of you as well... if yours is to be anything like mine it will be hellish...

But we both shall overcome.

We are at loggerheads all the time... I know, but I still respect you and your opinion despite how it may seem...

It is just the way I was raised at the kitchen table... fight to the death. beejacon 

Peace out and have a very Happy Holidays.

Steve


----------



## fjnmusic

Fair enough, Steve. Like I always say, better to be p*ssed off than p*ssed on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

Inside Britain's Sharia courts dispensing 'justice' across the UK | Daily Mail Online


> the vast majority of the cases involved women seeking to divorce absent husbands, due to the fact that under Islamic law, men only need to say ‘I divorce you’ three times to separate from their wives — while women need the sanction of clerics, whom they must pay for the privilege.





> Sitting in one room, a young Muslim woman tells an elderly cleric about the parlous state of her marriage to a 50-year-old man.
> ‘He oppressed me to the maximum,’ she declares. ‘He is violent, physically, and treats me like a dog.’
> The woman — who looks barely out of her early 20s — describes her spouse as verbally and physically abusive about ‘every little thing’ she does.
> When the husband’s around, he forces her to wear a headscarf. When he isn’t, which is often, he likes to travel to Tunisia, where she suspects he has secretly married several other women.
> For all she knows, she adds, he might have accumulated as many as ten other wives. Fighting back tears, as she finishes this tale of betrayal, the woman glances to the cleric, who has a long white beard, and sits at a raised desk in front of a bookcase full of Islamic texts. Perhaps she’s hoping for a supportive smile, confirming she’s not at fault. Maybe she’s seeking reassurance that the man will hold her misogynistic, wife-beating husband to account.
> Instead, the elderly cleric, whose name is Suhaib Hasan, starts laughing. ‘Why did you marry such a person?’ he chuckles.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Perhaps the Dauphin needs to have a talk with his Defence Minister...

No timetable on pulling jets, says Defence Minister



> Canada will not pull its CF-18 fighter jets from the combat mission in Iraq and Syria if it degrades the overall capability of the coalition forces, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan told SiriusXM...


----------



## rgray




----------



## screature

That is about right, even though it is wrong.


----------



## screature




----------



## screature




----------



## screature




----------



## screature




----------



## screature

High times ahead.... Yay!!!


----------



## screature

So what I want to know is how I can get into the business?

Is there a .gc.ca web site set up that can tell me how? I have some money to invest and would be interested in getting in on the ground floor to provide some competition to the Mexican and International cartels.... I might have to die for it but I would like to have some information as to how I could legally set up shop in Canada.


----------



## screature

I suspect it will cost hundreds of millions or even billions to invest.

Sativa or Indica? What is the allowable percentage of THC? Who decides? What are the regulations all around?

Like there are independent breweries will there be independent pot farms that can sell their product to larger distributors?

What about cross border shopping from one province to another? Can Canada Post legally ship pot grown in one province to another etc... etc. etc...

It all seems so easy on first blush as the Libs would have the public to believe but it isn't in reality... it it is actually much, much more complicated and will probably cost billions of dollars to set in place nation wide... just like the gun registry. The Libs are all about Big Government, always have been.

The US got it right by just going State by State rather than trying to implement a National strategy.

This is just the beginning of Trudeau's failures. The first being his campaign promise to get 20,000 refugees into the country by the end of the year. Would never happen, couldn't happen, won't happen. *FAIL*...

More failures to come.

Won't it be interesting when the Ontario School Board Pension Fund or or any other Provincial School Fund invests in marijuana related companies?


----------



## Macfury

It kills me that they're ready to sell marijuana but coming down hard on e-cigarettes.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> It kills me that they're ready to sell marijuana but coming down hard on e-cigarettes.


It ain't rocket science.... We have at least 6000 years history with marijuana and about 5 with E-cigarettes. Marijuana is the same old pot. In most cases we don't even know what is being put into the E-cigs. That should be at least cautionary.....


----------



## rgray




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## rgray




----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

John Ivison: Who could have predicted these problems for the Liberals? Absolutely everyone



> *Justin Trudeau’s first Question Period as prime minister was a miserable affair for the government, so exposed is it on two policy positions that never made any sense – beyond being blatant political bait for voters so hungry for change they were prepared to swallow any mendacity.*
> 
> Bill Morneau, the finance minister, conceded in a late afternoon press conference that reducing the middle income bracket tax rate for nine million Canadians, while simultaneously raising the rate for the 319,000 taxpayers earning more than $200,000, would not be “revenue neutral,” as the election platform had claimed.


M'bold.

More:



> On a day when the TSX tumbled 300 points, the loonie reached its weakest level in 11 years and crude oil prices dipped below $40 a barrel, *it was not the best of times to send the signal that public finances are in danger of spinning out of control.*


Yep.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Guess they don't teach grade school geogerfy in Budgie (drama) class.

Canadian PM Trudeau: Baltic Nations Are “Not A Thing”



> In a filmed promo clip uploaded to the Twitter account of an editor at Canada’s Maclean’s Magazine on Monday, new Canadian PM, *Justin Trudeau, was asked which of the Baltic nations is his favourite. Trudeau answered, saying “that’s not a thing”.*


But he has nice hair!!!


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> It ain't rocket science.... We have at least 6000 years history with marijuana and about 5 with E-cigarettes. Marijuana is the same old pot. In most cases we don't even know what is being put into the E-cigs. That should be at least cautionary.....


We know what smoke in the lungs does, we know the harm that marijuana use can cause and we know what e-cigarettes contain--and that they are successful in weaning people from tobacco. 

Anecdotal evidence from millennia of potheads doesn't exactly counter that.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


>





rgray said:


>


So what do you have to say?

It seems nothing. You let all the other people do your talking for you.

Lazy at best whether you be Indigent or not you claim to be an academic, so I would expect some original words from you.

Nothing original in ages...

I will expect nothing original from you in the future because you seem to be incapable of it or just too lazy.


----------



## rgray




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## rgray

screature said:


> I will expect nothing original from you in the future because you seem to be incapable of it or just too lazy.


Is what you "expect" actually supposed to matter to me?


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> Is what you "expect" actually supposed to matter to me?


Obviously not. 

Why would I ignore you? 

Rather than just bait, why not debate? It would be much more interesting.

Debate is better than just baiting IMO.

I know you will probably just come back with some trite cartoon rather than replying to to me respectfully as another human being on this forum but I just needed to say it.

Have a very happy festive season.


----------



## screature

rgray said:


> It ain't rocket science.... We have at least 6000 years history with marijuana and about 5 with E-cigarettes. *Marijuana is the same old pot.* In most cases we don't even know what is being put into the E-cigs. That should be at least cautionary.....


Not even remotely correct. As a supposed academic should do some research to find out how much potent (THC levels) pot is today than just even 40 years ago.

Your ignorance is astounding... maybe that is why you are an indigent academic.


----------



## FeXL

Canada’s carbon pricing is a fraud 



> Any carbon pricing scheme that is not revenue neutral does not have as its primary purpose lowering greenhouse gas emissions linked to climate change.
> 
> *Rather, it’s a cash grab by financially incompetent governments.*
> 
> ...
> 
> Revenue neutral means when a government raises taxes in one area, it lowers other taxes by an equal amount so its overall revenue stays the same.


M'bold.

Yep.

I'd go a step further & state the obvious: There cannot be such a thing as a revenue neutral tax. It will always cost _something_ (in most cases, a lot) to have the bean-counters administer the tax...


----------



## SINC

When will this sorry excuse for a PM start looking after our own needs?

Prime Minister announces infrastructure funding for Indonesia | Prime Minister of Canada


----------



## FeXL

McGuinty, Wynne wear e-mail scandal 



> Former premier Dalton McGuinty and current Premier Kathleen Wynne cannot wash their hands of the gas plants scandal that reignited Thursday with the OPP laying criminal charges against two top McGuinty aides.
> 
> It will be up to the courts to determine whether McGuinty’s former chief of staff, David Livingston, and former deputy chief of staff, Laura Miller, are guilty of three counts each of breach of trust, mischief in relation to data and misuse of a computer system to commit mischief.
> 
> This in connection with the deletion of thousands of e-mails from computers in the premier’s office on the cancellation of gas plants in Mississauga and Oakville.


I'd like to see a bit more of this splash onto McGuinty & Wynne...


----------



## SINC

Doing a bang up job, eh?


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Doing a bang up job, eh?


Again, I'm no great fan of Trudeau or the Federal Liberals (even less so the provincial version), but to be fair:

The $10-million figure pertains to the long, long overdue renovations to 24 Sussex (which really should just be scrapped and built anew). Trudeau & family are moving into Rideau Cottage, and apart from additional security on that part of the grounds, I've seen nothing that indicates added expenses for the Cottage move. "...his mansion..." is incorrect, since it's entirely possible that the renovations to 24 Sussex will not be completed anytime within Trudeau's term in office.

I don't know what the "3-billion giveaway to foreign countries" is all about. Link?

Breaking the $10-billion deficit promise: I never understood why any leader makes a stupid promise like that, since the incumbent party never provides the actual figures in the gov't books - the situation is almost always worse than they say publicly. Of course the Liberals can't stand by that promise, given the fiscal conditions left by Harper's Conservatives. Are YOU happy with the fiscal picture Harper left behind? How would YOU have handled it differently if you were coming into office?

"Offends allies" - like who? Can you identify (with sources) allies who have expressed concern that Canada is not going to be dropping bombs on ISIS? And even then, who gives a s***? Dropping bombs on the countries in the region is precisely one part of what created fanatics and jihadists in the first place. Do you think they just randomly decided that Canada should be attacked, for sh**s and giggles? Meddling (and being associated with meddlers) has repercussions.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Breaking the $10-billion deficit promise: I never understood why any leader makes a stupid promise like that, since the incumbent party never provides the actual figures in the gov't books - the situation is almost always worse than they say publicly. Of course the Liberals can't stand by that promise, given the fiscal conditions left by Harper's Conservatives. Are YOU happy with the fiscal picture Harper left behind? ?


Yes! The Libs just fudged the numbers to make it look like they were coming in on a worse footing.


----------



## FeXL

Read the news on something other than your crazy, leftist websites...



CubaMark said:


> I don't know what the "3-billion giveaway to foreign countries" is all about. Link?


I'll take "How to trick gullible progressive voters" for 500, Alex.



CubaMark said:


> Breaking the $10-billion deficit promise: I never understood why any leader makes a stupid promise like that...


If you can't get any closer than $15 billion to the actual number, you got no business being there in the first place. All your excuse does is prove that no one from the Liberal party did their homework.



CubaMark said:


> ...since the incumbent party never provides the actual figures in the gov't books - the situation is almost always worse than they say publicly.


Bush!!!



CubaMark said:


> Of course the Liberals can't stand by that promise, given the fiscal conditions left by Harper's Conservatives.


Under the circumstances, yes.



CubaMark said:


> Are YOU happy with the fiscal picture Harper left behind?


I wouldn't have merely pulled a number out of my arse & shovelled it upon the fawning, ignorant, low information masses I was trying to get to vote for me.



CubaMark said:


> How would YOU have handled it differently if you were coming into office?


This is so remarkably ignorant & uninformed it doesn't even merit a response, save to shake one's head in despair for the human race. Your grasp of international politics is on a par with your knowledge of global warming: something close to zero...



CubaMark said:


> Meddling (and being associated with meddlers) has repercussions.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> given the fiscal conditions left by Harper's Conservatives. Are YOU happy with the fiscal picture Harper left behind?


Yes. He did an amazing job. Anyone who understands even basic math would be thrilled with the what he was able to do.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Yes. He did an amazing job. Anyone who understands even basic math would be thrilled with the what he was able to do.


Yep borrowing roughly $200 Billion$ from the IMF was an absolutely brilliant idea. You can just ask Greece and Cyprus how well that works out!


----------



## fjnmusic

These threads, the Canadian and Alberta ones, are becoming tedious, predictable and boring. No real discussion or debate takes place; just entrenched views on both sides that never seem to change or make any allowance for concessions that the other side may have a point once in a while. I used to think I might be able to persuade someone once in a while that there is another way to see things, but I've pretty much given up flogging a dead horse. I like and respect both Rachel Notley and Justin Trudeau and I think they are a breath of fresh air in a place that has been ruled and exploited by "Conservatives" for far too long. I don't really care if you agree or not—I have my reasons based on personal experience. 

Merry Christmas everyone. And a Happy Festivus for the rest of us. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> These threads, the Canadian and Alberta ones, are becoming tedious, predictable and boring. No real discussion or debate takes place; just entrenched views on both sides that never seem to change or make any allowance for concessions that the other side may have a point once in a while. I used to think I might be able to persuade someone once in a while that there is another way to see things, but I've pretty much given up flogging a dead horse. I like and respect both Rachel Notley and Justin Trudeau and I think they are a breath of fresh air in a place that has been ruled and exploited by "Conservatives" for far too long. I don't really care if you agree or not—I have my reasons based on personal experience.
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone. And a Happy Festivus for the rest of us.


Well, each to his own is fine with me as well. If you are happy with the economic carnage both JT and RN are inflicting on this country, all I can say is, really?

Merry Christmas and Happy Festivus to you and yours as well.


----------



## SINC

Liberal campaign promises in tatters.

'Real change' comes early to Liberal promises - Politics - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

There are some here who are willing to actually discuss the topic. 

Personally, I'm not trying to convince anybody one way or the other. My efforts on most of these threads is to merely to air out the issues & have informed individuals make their own decisions.

However, Content Free Posts like this:



fjnmusic said:


> Waa waa waa. More poor sports.


do zero to further the discussion. Physician, heal thyself.

If you bring something to the table, have something of substance & be able to defend it. Is that too much to ask?



fjnmusic said:


> No real discussion or debate takes place;


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

It's not just Canadians who are concerned about Trudeau's refugee plan.

Canada and the Emerging Terror Threat From the North



> This week an article in The Daily Beast ruffled feathers by noting that Canada, our placid neighbor to the north, has a large and growing problem with radical Islam.
> 
> ...
> 
> Except that it happens to be entirely true. If anything, the piece in The Daily Beast, which was light on counterterrorism specifics, low-balled the extent of Islamic radicalism that has taken root in Canada in recent years. *Thanks to large-scale immigration, a permissive environment that emphasizes multiculturalism over assimilation and overwhelmed security agencies, Canada now possesses a domestic radicalism threat that Americans need to be talking about.*


M'bold.

Related:

US lawmakers, analysts warn Trudeau 'admin' Syrian refugee plan puts America at risk.



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau welcomed the first big wave of Syrian refugees last Friday, part of the more than 10,000 expected to resettle in Canada by the end of the year.
> 
> But with the plan come questions about whether their vetting process is up to the task and whether lax standards north of the border could undermine America's security.
> 
> _“There is a concern with this large volume in such a short period of time that adequate vetting may not be occurring,”_ Sen. Ron Johnson, chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, told FoxNews.com.


While the US is hardly one to be critical of other vetting processes...


----------



## Macfury

It happens that your positions are indefensible, fjn--or at the very least, you don't try to defend them. Don't expect people to move to the mushy middle just because you're happy with teachers' salaries, while the rest of Alberta drowns.



fjnmusic said:


> These threads, the Canadian and Alberta ones, are becoming tedious, predictable and boring. No real discussion or debate takes place; just entrenched views on both sides that never seem to change or make any allowance for concessions that the other side may have a point once in a while. I used to think I might be able to persuade someone once in a while that there is another way to see things, but I've pretty much given up flogging a dead horse. I like and respect both Rachel Notley and Justin Trudeau and I think they are a breath of fresh air in a place that has been ruled and exploited by "Conservatives" for far too long. I don't really care if you agree or not—I have my reasons based on personal experience.
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone. And a Happy Festivus for the rest of us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

The Libs have no plan... they are flying on the pants of a pretty boy and will hope that his people around him will do a good job.

It is embarrassing to be me that Justin Trudeau is our PM. It simply astounds me.

What an embarrassment that Canada could elect him as our PM.... I guess that is what happens in the age of Facebook and Twitter.


----------



## Rps

I think we have to be fair here and give Mr. Trudeau some time. Not a Trudeau fan, just saying that running governments takes time and many times they are judged on the results of others good intentions. However if the economic and international political waves do not change in a years time, and government policy seems to be making things worse.....then you and those in the Alberta Thread may have a point.


----------



## Macfury

What I am seeing on display here cannot be corrected by time.



Rps said:


> I think we have to be fair here and give Mr. Trudeau some time. Not a Trudeau fan, just saying that running governments takes time and many times they are judged on the results of others good intentions. However if the economic and international political waves do not change in a years time, and government policy seems to be making things worse.....then you and those in the Alberta Thread may have a point.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> I think we have to be fair here and give Mr. Trudeau some time. Not a Trudeau fan, just saying that running governments takes time and many times they are judged on the results of others good intentions. However if the economic and international political waves do not change in a years time, and government policy seems to be making things worse.....then you and those in the Alberta Thread may have a point.


Sorry Rps, but I have seen all I need to know to form an opinion and I can assure you that things will only get worse in the next 4 months in Alberta and 9 months in the country. The mistakes being made are so severe it will take years to recover from.


----------



## Rps

Fair enough Sinc and McFury.....but to your point, weren't the seeds sown by prior Conservative governments both Federally and, in Alberta case, Provincially?


----------



## Vandave

Rps said:


> I think we have to be fair here and give Mr. Trudeau some time. Not a Trudeau fan, just saying that running governments takes time and many times they are judged on the results of others good intentions. However if the economic and international political waves do not change in a years time, and government policy seems to be making things worse.....then you and those in the Alberta Thread may have a point.


I was willing to give him time when he first got elected but I have already lost my patience. If the last couple months are any indication, this government going to have a lot of problems. Two months ago, I said the Conservatives had no chance of winning in four years. While I still see a change as unlikely, I think the odds are better than I imagined.

The media of course isn't holding him to account on his election promise screw-ups. 

Let's start the list:

- Budget Deficits - Bigger than promised and blames the prior government... Weak
- Tax Changes - Less revenue from the 'rich' and less goodies for the 'poor'.
- Refugees - We had a race as to who would take the most refugees, but he had no understanding that our system couldn't accordance his numbers.
- Syria File - Pulls jets out when the World ramps up pressure.
- Climate Handouts - Gives billions to unaccountable people oversees. Sad.

I think he's making so many mistakes that the media will eventually start covering it.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Fair enough Sinc and McFury.....but to your point, weren't the seeds sown by prior Conservative governments both Federally and, in Alberta case, Provincially?


Federally? No, the Conservatives left the country in very good shape. In Alberta, Conservatives were unpopular largely because they refused to cut spending--tripling down on debt would hardly suggest that Notley thought it was a problem.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Fair enough Sinc and McFury.....but to your point, weren't the seeds sown by prior Conservative governments both Federally and, in Alberta case, Provincially?


Not a chance. The former government did not in any way tamper with the minimum wage jumping by 50%. Nor did they propose an increase of 20% for taxes on Alberta business. Neither did they tamper with the royalty rates for oil producers. Nor did the Cons ever even consider a carbon tax at a time when oil is so hard hit. Now our heating bills will rise by $30 a month soon followed by another $10 a month the year after. Those are all devastating moves invented by the totally inexperienced and union driven ideology of the NDP. Did I mention after a 5% bump in booze tax by the Cons last April, the NDP slapped a further 5% on it again in November. Did you also notice not a single dime cut from anything that might reach into the wallets of union members?

I could go on with the farm "unionization like' moves re WCB and their hints about too much more tampering to come, but by now surely you can see this was not a result of the former government.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> I think we have to be fair here and give Mr. Trudeau some time. Not a Trudeau fan, just saying that running governments takes time and many times they are judged on the results of others good intentions. However if the economic and international political waves do not change in a years time, and government policy seems to be making things worse.....then you and those in the Alberta Thread may have a point.



Exactly. Keeping an open mind does wonders for one's constitution. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

Yep--you were really open-minded during the Harper era. A breath of fresh air you were.



fjnmusic said:


> Exactly. Keeping an open mind does wonders for one's constitution.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Not a chance. The former government did not in any way tamper with the minimum wage jumping by 50%.



Less than 10%. An increase of $1.00 an hour on a wage of $10.20 to $11.20 is less than 10%—more like about 9.8%. You don't count several potential wage increases that haven't even happened yet over several years as one wage jump. That's like saying Oh My God—house prices have increased by 500% over the last twenty years! Where did you learn your arithmetic, out of curiosity? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yep--you were really open-minded during the Harper era. A breath of fresh air you were.



Weak counterargument. I gave credit to Harper for at least trying during his first year as PM of a minority gov't, back when Rick Mercer visited him at 24 Sussex. But the more seats he gained, the more arrogant he became—just like most governors. 
https://youtu.be/2KMcEwsT-10


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

We now have full-blown arrogance out of the starting gate, coupled with alarming dim-wittedness.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

I actively oppose most of those decisions. The ones that are not terrible are meaningless to me. A list of nothing.


----------



## FeXL

As a businessman you do if that's what's been promised.



fjnmusic said:


> You don't count several potential wage increases that haven't even happened yet over several years as one wage jump.


----------



## macintosh doctor

and in time for Christmas


----------



## screature

2 more females than in Harper's Cabinet, earth shattering stuff that is...

Harper met with Premiers all the time just not all at the same time, big whop... probably saved millions of $$$

Canada participated actively at all the summits just not in a way that was to the liking of bleeding hearts.

That is a complete joke, the Senate will always be partisan... where the hell do you get that from? Pure Imagination. 

Didn't happen. One of his first failures of many to come.

Completely political theater to steal votes away from the NDP. We already know what the problem is after more that 40 studies, a complete waste of time and money.


----------



## fjnmusic

Grinches everywhere are alive and well this Christmas. 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...eau-canada-prime-minister-politics-appearence









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Grinches everywhere are alive and well this Christmas.


Not to mention there is a sucker born every minute.


----------



## SINC

US warns Canada's Syrian refugee plan puts US at risk

http://en.cijnews.com/?p=17174

Not only that, Trudeau's simple minded plan puts US at risk.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Grinches everywhere are alive and well this Christmas.
> A charm offensive: conservative Canada irked by the magnetism of Trudeau | World news | The Guardian
> View attachment 64505
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? You think this is a good example of journalism? It is pure pablum from the left. Good enough for a political infant but not good enough for an educated adult with a brain in his or her head.

But Trudeau and his cohorts wold have nothing to know about that.

Trudeau and his "team" remind me of the Kardashians, all show and no substance.


----------



## fjnmusic

Methinks the lady doth protest too much. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SINC

If anyone is interested in seeing stupidity live and in person along with a rambling and disjointed mix of mush and ignorance, be sure to watch JT's year end interview with Dawna Friesen on Global on Christmas Day called 'Because It's 2015'. From all the excerpts I have seen, the man is a bumbling idiot not fit to lead a boy scout troop, never mind a country. What a sad mistake by Canadians. This PM will embarrass us beyond measure in his hopefully short lived term. If you don't squirm with sympathy for a guy so far out of his element that anyone who loves this country will be very uncomfortable watching and wishing they had not made such a terrible mistake.

Watch it for yourself and see what Canadians have done to themselves.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> If anyone is interested in seeing stupidity live and in person along with a rambling and disjointed mix of mush and ignorance, be sure to watch JT's year end interview with Dawna Friesen on Global on Christmas Day called 'Because It's 2015'. From all the excerpts I have seen, the man is a bumbling idiot not fit to lead a boy scout troop, never mind a country. What a sad mistake by Canadians. This PM will embarrass us beyond measure in his hopefully short lived term. If you don't squirm with sympathy for a guy so far out of his element that anyone who loves this country will be very uncomfortable watching and wishing they had not made such a terrible mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch it for yourself and see what Canadians have done to themselves.



And a Merry Christmas to you too, Mr. Scrooge! 


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## screature

SINC said:


> If anyone is interested in seeing stupidity live and in person along with a rambling and disjointed mix of mush and ignorance, be sure to watch JT's year end interview with Dawna Friesen on Global on Christmas Day called 'Because It's 2015'. From all the excerpts I have seen,* the man is a bumbling idiot not fit to lead a boy scout troop, never mind a country. What a sad mistake by Canadians. This PM will embarrass us beyond measure in his hopefully short lived term. If you don't squirm with sympathy for a guy so far out of his element that anyone who loves this country will be very uncomfortable watching and wishing they had not made such a terrible mistake.*
> 
> Watch it for yourself and see what Canadians have done to themselves.


Well with the minority of Canadians, just like it was with Harper.

Our system of government needs some serious reform.

The last PM who tried was Mulroney, sadly it failed but at least he had the balls to try.

We will not get that with Trudeau, it will just be political theater and nothing of substance.

At least PET took a stand even though is was the wrong stand. He didn't have politicos behind him making all his decisions for him. JT does not have an original thought in his brain that cannot be vetted by his "team".

When he speaks without being vetted by his "team", he makes ridiculous comments.

He kind of reminds me of the difference between Bush Senior and Junior.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> And a Merry Christmas to you too, Mr. Scrooge!


Christmas has no bearing on the cold hard truth about the boy wonder's intelligence.


----------



## fjnmusic

It's interesting how the right-wing Con-men will criticize and dismiss anything they do not understand. There is a great deal of tactic needed with deploying troops and bombers in Syria, for example, because every bomb you drop can result in collateral damage which helps groups like ISIS justify their terrorist tactics and win the support of the people who would otherwise be opposing them. If the "war on terror" was a successful tactic, why are there more terrorists today than there were in September of 2001?

Just because YOU don't understand the plan does not make you intelligent or superior. It means you don't understand the plan. 


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## Macfury

You seem to be thinking inside the box on this one, fjn--accepting the government pablum spoon fed to you.



fjnmusic said:


> It's interesting how the right-wing Con-men will criticize and dismiss anything they do not understand. There is a great deal of tactic needed with deploying troops and bombers in Syria, for example, because every bomb you drop can result in collateral damage which helps groups like ISIS justify their terrorist tactics and win the support of the people who would otherwise be opposing them. If the "war on terror" was a successful tactic, why are there more terrorists today than there were in September of 2001?
> 
> Just because YOU don't understand the plan does not make you intelligent or superior. It means you don't understand the plan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You seem to be thinking inside the box on this one, fjn--accepting the government pablum spoon fed to you.



All I'm saying is I don't know enough to pass judgement yet. And I'm guessing neither do you. 


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Give Stephen Harper another majority!


Here's a throwback to about a year ago. Seems you did not have a very good read on the collective pulse after all.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Here's a throwback to about a year ago. Seems you did not have a very good read on the collective pulse after all.


The collective pulse is generally an idiot. I was stating what was good for the country.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





fjnmusic said:


> I*t's interesting how the right-wing Con-men will criticize and dismiss anything they do not understand.* There is a great deal of tactic needed with deploying troops and bombers in Syria, for example, because every bomb you drop can result in collateral damage which helps groups like ISIS justify their terrorist tactics and win the support of the people who would otherwise be opposing them. If the "war on terror" was a successful tactic, why are there more terrorists today than there were in September of 2001?
> 
> Just because YOU don't understand the plan does not make you intelligent or superior. It means you don't understand the plan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





fjnmusic said:


> All I'm saying is I don't know enough to pass judgement yet. And I'm guessing neither do you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What a bunch of BS!!!

So what is the plan? Do you you know? You just admitted as much that you don't but somehow you seem to be in favour of the non-plan... that seems to be just about right for those in favour of the Libs.

On that note have a very Merry Christmas.


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## rgray

David Cameron's election mastermind Lynton Crosby 'is to be awarded a knighthood in the New Year honours list'* | Daily Mail Online


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## Macfury

rgray said:


> David Cameron's election mastermind Lynton Crosby 'is to be awarded a knighthood in the New Year honours list'* | Daily Mail Online


Why is this in the Canadian political thread?


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## rgray

Macfury said:


> Why is this in the Canadian political thread?


Just because Crosby's performance in Canada was, by contrast to the UK, an abject and obvious failure! It adds perspective.


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## Macfury

rgray said:


> Just because Crosby's performance in Canada was, by contrast to the UK, an abject and obvious failure! It adds perspective.


When was it established that Crosby "performed" any service in Canada?


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## eMacMan

rgray said:


> Just because Crosby's performance in Canada was, by contrast to the UK, an abject and obvious failure! It adds perspective.





Macfury said:


> When was it established that Crosby "performed" any service in Canada?


Sounds like you both said the same thing.


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## heavyall

Macfury said:


> When was it established that Crosby "performed" any service in Canada?


Crosby was not involved in the Harper campaign.


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## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Crosby was not involved in the Harper campaign.


Exactly.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Crosby was not involved in the Harper campaign.



My how short a memory some of us have, or how revisionist the stories we write are. Crosby was the "dirty tricks" strategist from Australia that Harper's team had hired to help with the campaign strategy this past summer. Crosby does not like to be associated with a losing campaign, however, so he ditched the Tories before the election campaign was over, likely because of Harper's allowance of the Ford brothers to endorse him. Crosby was VERY MUCH involved in Harper's campaign and advocated the use of xenophobic tactics to solidify party support. It didn't work however. 

http://thinkpol.ca/2015/10/15/lynton-crosby-abandons-harper/


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> My how short a memory some of us have, or how revisionist the stories we write are.


Lynton Crosby was never involved in the Harper campaign. At all.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Lynton Crosby was never involved in the Harper campaign. At all.



Stubborn are we? He is the primary reason the party shifted to a fear of Muslims to try to gain support. It's one of Crosby's signature moves. I have just provided a link indicating that Crosby was involved in the Con campaign. Please provide a link indicating that he wasn't. 


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## fjnmusic

Yet more evidence of the phantom menace. 

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/30/harp...er-just-pulled-his-campaign-out-of-the-weeds/


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## Macfury

A columnist is guessing that Crosby is involved? No proof. Just his word that it must be so. And no, I will not provide proof that something that didn't happen didn't happen. It's up to to people who believe it happened to prove that it did. 



fjnmusic said:


> Stubborn are we? He is the primary reason the party shifted to a fear of Muslims to try to gain support. It's one of Crosby's signature moves. I have just provided a link indicating that Crosby was involved in the Con campaign. Please provide a link indicating that he wasn't.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Stubborn are we? He is the primary reason the party shifted to a fear of Muslims to try to gain support. It's one of Crosby's signature moves. I have just provided a link indicating that Crosby was involved in the Con campaign.
> Please provide a link indicating that he wasn't.


Lynton Crosby 'bemused' at reports of involvement in Canadian elections





> "I wasn't engaged on the Canadian election and wasn't there during the election campaign. It follows that the strategy wasn't 'mine'," he said





> Conservative Party National Campaign Chairman: "Mr Crosby wasn't here during the campaign and he was not on our campaign. Nor was he on contract. Mr Crosby is a very talented strategist but neither his talents nor his strategy are reflected in the campaign we ran," Mr Giorno said.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Lynton Crosby 'bemused' at reports of involvement in Canadian elections



Of course he would deny his involvement; he doesn't like to be associated with losing campaigns. 



> Amid a flurry of negative news stories and slipping poll figures, Canada’s Conservative party has confirmed that it has enlisted the help of Lynton Crosby – the Australian political strategist who advised Britain’s Conservative and Australia’s Liberal parties – to help steer the party’s struggling campaign for re-election.
> 
> Campaign spokesman Kory Teneycke confirmed on Thursday that the Tories have been seeking advice from Crosby, the bare-knuckle campaign adviser credited with helping engineer David Cameron’s absolute majority in the British general election last May.
> 
> “We were fans of Lynton Crosby before many people knew who Lynton Crosby was,” Teneycke told the Guardian.
> 
> Teneycke said Crosby has given the party “formal and informal advice” over many years, adding that the Australian adviser met with the campaign team a couple of months ago and has been helped the party with analysis of research and polling.
> 
> “I’m not going to comment on the specific nature of the relationship but it’s a close one and an ongoing one and one that predates this campaign,” he said.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/10/canada-conservatives-lynton-crosby-election




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## heavyall

Lynton Crosby was never involved in the 2015 campaign.


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## Macfury

It's not that it would have bothered me if they had, but by October 13th, Teneycke still had not confirmed any involvement with Crosby. The Guardian "quotes" are really a rather bizarre piece of fiction, considering that the Conservatives never spoke to the media about their campaign advisors at all.

Conservative party still mum on Lynton Crosby’s role in campaign

Finally this comment from Guy Giorno, Conservative Party National Campaign Chairman when asked to confirm the _Guardian_ story: 



> "Mr Crosby wasn't here during the campaign and he was not on our campaign. Nor was he on contract. Mr Crosby is a very talented strategist but neither his talents nor his strategy are reflected in the campaign we ran."


Lynton Crosby 'bemused' at reports of involvement in Canadian elections



fjnmusic said:


> Of course he would deny his involvement; he doesn't like to be associated with losing campaigns.
> 
> Canada election 2015: Tories seek out 'Australian rottweiler' Lynton Crosby | World news | The Guardian


----------



## fjnmusic

Gosh, there sure are a lot of sources that contradict your denier-theories. Where do we begin? 



> Lynton Crosby, Australian strategist, hired by Tories to boost political fortunes/
> Harper's campaign manager sent back to Ottawa as part of an effort to refocus campaign


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-election-2015-lynton-crosby-conservatives-1.3223315



> CHARLOTTETOWN — Stephen Harper's struggling Conservatives are employing the services of a controversial Australian campaign fixer who is credited with helping David Cameron confound the polls and secure a majority victory in last May's U.K. election.
> 
> Lynton Crosby has also been linked to tactics that have rallied voters fearful of immigration and crime behind the campaigns he advises.
> 
> A Conservative party source said Crosby has been giving advice — primarily analyzing polling data — since March. Another source said that Harper had met with Crosby in the summer, and the Australian told him then that his campaign strategy and preparation needed work.
> 
> Both sources spoke to The Canadian Press on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to publicly discuss internal party planning.
> 
> Campaign spokesperson Kory Teneycke refused to discuss campaign "staffing decisions" but confirmed Thursday that Crosby has been advising the party for a long time and is continuing to do so.
> 
> He denied suggestions that Crosby has taken over the campaign or was recruited in a bid to turn around the party's sliding fortunes at the mid-point of the race to the Oct. 19 vote. It was unclear whether Crosby is working from Canada or abroad.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/0...d-helping-harper-conservatives_n_8119574.html



> According to Maclean's magazine, Crosby has been recruited amid rumours of discontent among Conservatives over national campaign director Jenni Byrne. Byrne has been blamed for keeping out "smart, experienced people" from the party's war room, while relying heavily on personal friends including Conservative Party spokesperson Kory Teneycke and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's chief of staff, Ray Novak.


http://www.nationalobserver.com/2015/09/10/news/harper-hires-infamous-aussie-spin-doctor-cling-power



> We may never learn just what Lynton Crosby did, or said, during the “few days” he was reportedly in Canada working on the Conservative campaign.
> 
> That’s because the Conservative party is maintaining a stony silence about the Australian political fixer enlisted by the party to help drive the campaign forward in September.
> 
> For starters, the party refuses to confirm that Crosby actually spent any time on Canadian soil while working on the Harper campaign.
> Despite multiple requests, Conservative spokesperson Kory Teneycke has not stated whether Crosby was in Canada for a few days to assist with the campaign, which was reported by the Globe and Mail’s Adam Radwanski on Friday.
> 
> According to Radwanski’s sources, Crosby was approached by senior Conservatives — possibly Harper himself — in the summer. “This appears to have been prompted by concern about their party’s state of preparedness. Mr. Crosby, however, was apparently not eager to take over (or something approximating that) so late in the game,” Radwanski wrote.
> 
> “Instead, he agreed then or later to assist from afar in a limited capacity, which seems to have involved helping interpret the party’s research. He was not, by any account, calling the shots.”


http://ipolitics.ca/2015/10/13/conservative-party-still-mum-on-lynton-crosbys-role-in-campaign/



> For campaign magic, Harper turns to a wizard from Oz
> Australian campaign whiz Lynton Crosby is coming to Canada to help the Conservatives.


http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/for-campaign-magic-harper-turns-to-a-wizard-from-oz/

Seems like every media outlet in Canada must have had it wrong. I wonder why it's so inconceivable to think Lynton Crosby had any part in Harper's and the Cons' failed campaign to be re-elected? 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Seems like every media outlet in Canada must have had it wrong.


Business as usual for the left-wing media in Canada. It would be news if they got something right.


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## Macfury

Unnamed sources? Yes, they had it wrong. The media outlets were feeding on each other's ramblings, broken telephone style.


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## fjnmusic

Boy. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Boy. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


 That lefties still insist on lying about what the CPC has or has not done does not surprise me in the least. There's no denial, just unequivocal facts: Lynton Crosby was not involved in the 2015 campaign whatsoever. I would have no problem at all if he were, but he absolutely was not.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> That lefties still insist on lying about what the CPC has or has not done does not surprise me in the least. There's no denial, just unequivocal facts: Lynton Crosby was not involved in the 2015 campaign whatsoever. I would have no problem at all if he were, but he absolutely was not.



Then why do representatives of the CPC say he was, or that he had been consulting with them since May? Seems like it's the CPC that brought up the matter. There would be no reason for him to break ties to the CPC if there were no ties to begin with. Or I suppose you believe that Harper and his people could never withhold the truth from you. 


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## heavyall

I spoke with Todd MacFarlane and Jim Valentino just before I published one of my own books. They didn't have anything to do with the book, but by your logic, I should have put their names on the cover.


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## Macfury

All you have is that Guardian article that does not gel with anything else the guy said, or that the CPC said, or that Crosby said. Everything else is repetition of "unnamed sources."

The CPC should have hired Crosby early on, but alas they did not.



fjnmusic said:


> Then why do representatives of the CPC say he was, or that he had been consulting with them since May? Seems like it's the CPC that brought up the matter. There would be no reason for him to break ties to the CPC if there were no ties to begin with. Or I suppose you believe that Harper and his people could never withhold the truth from you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> The CPC should have hired Crosby early on, but alas they did not.


They probably should have hired him, and it certainly appears that at one point they were thinking about it. It just never actually happened.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> They probably should have hired him, and it certainly appears that at one point they were thinking about it. It just never actually happened.


So every news report from on or about about September 10 concerning Lynron Crosby has been fabricated according to your logic. Better get out the tin foil hats, boys—we got ourselves a conspiracy theory! 😜


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> So every news report from on or about about September 10 concerning Lynron Crosby has been fabricated according to your logic. Better get out the tin foil hats, boys—we got ourselves a conspiracy theory! 😜


Yes indeed, just like you, the media can be wrong.


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## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yes indeed, just like you, the media can be wrong.



That's funny, Don, since you are also the media. 


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> So every news report from on or about about September 10 concerning Lynron Crosby has been fabricated according to your logic. Better get out the tin foil hats, boys—we got ourselves a conspiracy theory! 😜


Copied from each other. No conspiracy.


----------



## fjnmusic

Well here's the rationale for why the Cons would want to downplay Crosby's involvement—it could be construed as illegal influence peddling. Makes more sense than your tin foil hat theories.



> The independent watchdog who enforces Canada’s election laws says there’s nothing wrong with the Conservative party employing the services of controversial Australian campaign fixer Lynton Crosby.
> 
> The Canada Elections Act specifies that it is illegal for anyone who is not a Canadian citizen or permanent resident to “in any way induce electors” to vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate.
> 
> But a spokeswoman for the commissioner of elections says providing advice to a campaign or working for a campaign is not considered inducement.
> 
> The Conservatives confirmed Thursday that Crosby has been helping Stephen Harper’s campaign team since March — primarily doing analysis of polling data — and continues to do so.


http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/11/elections-canada-says-harpers-aussie-campaign-advisor-allowed/


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## Macfury

Did you just discover that? We'd already taken that common knowledge into consideration.




fjnmusic said:


> Well here's the rationale for why the Cons would want to downplay Crosby's involvement—it could be construed as illegal influence peddling. Makes more sense than your tin foil hat theories.
> 
> 
> 
> Elections commissioner says Harper’s Aussie campaign advisor allowed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Did you just discover that? We'd already taken that common knowledge into consideration.



No, I don't think you had. Makes sense of your apparent obvious stubbornness to admit the truth despite the veracity of the claims that Crosby worked at an arm's length for the CPC—analyzing data and such—and the CPC even admits it! You squirm like a senator on the hot seat. 


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## fjnmusic

One of my faves of 2015. 











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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> One of my faves of 2015.


If he had been ready he wouldn't be bumbling like an amateur.


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## Macfury

It would only make sense if Crosby had been involved. If had been, the CPC would have won.



fjnmusic said:


> No, I don't think you had. Makes sense of your apparent obvious stubbornness to admit the truth despite the veracity of the claims that Crosby worked at an arm's length for the CPC—analyzing data and such—and the CPC even admits it! You squirm like a senator on the hot seat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SINC

Yep, pretty much.

Justin Trudeau: Canada's Obama


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> If he had been ready he wouldn't be bumbling like an amateur.



Jason Kenney, you mean? Yes I agree. He is bumbling (or mumbling) like an amateur. Harper appears to be speechless. 


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It would only make sense if Crosby had been involved. If had been, the CPC would have won.



Crosby bailed when he could see the Harperites weren't going to take his advice whole hog. To quote Mike Ermantrout, Harper took a half measure when he should have taken a full measure. Crosby split because xenophobia had always worked for him before, and he didn't want to be associated with a losing campaign. Harper, of course, could also see the xenophobic card wasn't playing that well with Canadian voters as he watched his poll numbers drop, so he backed off a little. He could also see the fanatical followers of Trump down South and wasn't prepared to go that far. He had engaged the Dark side but wasn't prepared to follow through. In his last few appearances he looked more like a puppy that had been kicked than a leader of a country. I wish him a happy retirement—this has been a tough year on Mr. Harper. 

In the end, Justin was ready—to win over the people regardless of his experience or lack thereof. He represented hope and change, something Canadians had not seen in a long time. Whether he could work miracles or not, he has charisma, and charisma goes a long way. 


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Whether he could work miracles or not, he has charisma, and charisma goes a long way.


Only to a sort of weak-chinned voter.


----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> Crosby bailed when he could see the Harperites weren't going to take his advice whole hog. To quote Mike Ermantrout, Harper took a half measure when he should have taken a full measure. Crosby split because xenophobia had always worked for him before, and he didn't want to be associated with a losing campaign. Harper, of course, could also see the xenophobic card wasn't playing that well with Canadian voters as he watched his poll numbers drop, so he backed off a little. He could also see the fanatical followers of Trump down South and wasn't prepared to go that far. He had engaged the Dark side but wasn't prepared to follow through. In his last few appearances he looked more like a puppy that had been kicked than a leader of a country. I wish him a happy retirement—this has been a tough year on Mr. Harper.
> 
> In the end, Justin was ready—to win over the people regardless of his experience or lack thereof. He represented hope and change, something Canadians had not seen in a long time. Whether he could work miracles or not, he has charisma, and charisma goes a long way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 I recall Crosby was tapped by the Conservative when Jenni Byrne was thrown off the (tour) Plane. Crosby bailed on the Conservative Party when OGL's stink of desperation play of rallying with the Fords was confirmed. :lmao::lmao:


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> I recall Crosby was tapped by the Conservative when Jenni Byrne was thrown off the (tour) Plane. Crosby bailed on the Conservative Party when OGL's stink of desperation play of rallying with the Fords was confirmed. :lmao::lmao:


I'm glad I didn't just imagine it. The ehMac Ministry of Truth (responsible for rewriting history) was starting to make me wonder


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I'm glad I didn't just imagine it. The ehMac Ministry of Truth (responsible for rewriting history) was starting to make me wonder


BigDL recalls it. Now you have a club of two--but no proof.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> BigDL recalls it. Now you have a club of two--but no proof.



Funny. We have provided you with ample proof. Seems to me it is up to you to now refute each of these sources individually. Sweeping accusations of copying won't do. 


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## rgray




----------



## BigDL

fjnmusic said:


> Funny. We have provided you with ample proof. Seems to me it is up to you to now refute each of these sources individually. Sweeping accusations of copying won't do.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


None so blind...and all. 

For some denial is all they got. 

Picking on Muslims was a popular winning strategy, you and I were assured on these very boards, until it wasn't. The threads on this site are littered with posts telling us how popular and what a winning strategy banning the niqab at citizenship ceremonies would be. 

Crosby's dog whistle politics were all over the Barbaric Cultural Practices Rat...errr...Snitch... Reporting Line.

Seems about 32% of voters could hear the dog whistle loudly and clearly. For 68% of the population, this kind of horseshi...puckkies had no currency. 

The Conservatives were all a twitter when Chris Alexander and Kellie Lietch announced the rat line but now the Conservative disavow any connection to the event.


----------



## rgray

Lynton Crosby Hired By Harper Campaign


> A Conservative party source said Crosby has been giving advice — primarily analyzing polling data — since March. Another source said that Harper had met with Crosby in the summer, and the Australian told him then that his campaign strategy and preparation needed work.





> Campaign spokesperson Kory Teneycke refused to discuss campaign "staffing decisions" but confirmed Thursday that Crosby has been advising the party for a long time and is continuing to do so.


The knee-jerk righties can deny all they want, Lynton Crosby's participation is a matter of public record.

Denial is simply another form of lying - Which is in itself a tried and true Con tactic. Harpo would be so proud!!!! :lmao:


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## Macfury

I love unnamed sources. Takes the guesswork out of proof.



fjnmusic said:


> Funny. We have provided you with ample proof. Seems to me it is up to you to now refute each of these sources individually. Sweeping accusations of copying won't do.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I love unnamed sources. Takes the guesswork out of proof.


Credit where credit is due: at least it wasn't a cartoon...


----------



## FeXL

Rex Murphy: The Liberal government does not have the right to unilaterally change our voting system



> The current government owes its good fortune to 39.62 per cent of the popular vote in the recent election. Harper’s government, in the election before that, owed its good fortune to 39.47 per cent of the vote. Under the old laws of political logic — those who were so rudely kept out of power during the Harper interregnum — that low percentage was too frequently interpreted as meaning that over 60 per cent of the Canadian people voted against him. And that slippery logic was enhanced by the assertion that, due to this fact, his government was really not “democratic” and thus did not have full legitimacy.
> 
> However, now that we have a Liberal government elected by almost an identical percentage of voters, it means quite the opposite: that this government speaks with the voice of the true Canada and is quite simply a shining manifestation of all that is good about Canada herself. Conservatives at 39 per cent — bagpipes at midnight; Liberals at 39 per cent — midsummer noon.


M'bold.

Curious, that....

Further, & the meat of the issue:



> The oscillation in logic is a full 180 degrees and rests on the airy foundations of partisan self-regard and raw, unsupported assertion. *Neither this government, nor any other, has the moral right to change the electoral process without prior consultation through a referendum approved by the voters. As it is, after all, the people whose sovereign power of election is the essence of any democratic system.*


M'bold.

Yep.

Especially since electoral reform referenda have already been hosted & defeated in BC, Ontario & PEI.


----------



## FeXL

Related to the stupidity in Alberta.

Wynne’s plan? Higher payroll taxes, carbon pricing



> One would think even Premier Kathleen Wynne’s mathematically challenged government would understand why it’s not a good idea to take almost $5 billion a year out of Ontarians’ pockets.
> 
> But between her looming Ontario pension plan ($3.5 billion in new payroll taxes) and cap-and-trade scheme, ($1.3 billion in higher prices on goods and services), apparently not.


Apparently...


----------



## FeXL

(language warning)

CBC closes comments on indigenous stories after 4th comments moderator dies from exhaustion



> The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation will no longer permit web readers to post comments on any articles involving indigenous peoples just days after the tragic death of a CBC comments moderator.
> 
> The unidentified moderator suffered a fatal heart attack after 52 consecutive hours deleting bigoted, hateful and ignorant comments from the CBC’s website. Her passing was the fourth death of a comments moderator at the CBC in as many months.


----------



## FeXL

Am I happy? More like ecstatic!!! However, just another example of a Liberal Lie...


McCallum to update on Syrian refugee program today. 9 days until yr end. Less than 20 % of promised 10K refugees have arrived.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hmmm... Duplicate post.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Credit where credit is due: at least it wasn't a cartoon...


And a Merry Christmas to you, sir!


----------



## FeXL

Hey, the post had a quote, a link, a _comment_ and no hidden cartoon (I don't see them unless I click on them. I never feel inclined.). 2016's looking up...



fjnmusic said:


> And a Merry Christmas to you, sir!


----------



## screature

Canada's New Government Makes Its First Big Mistake

The first major reform that Canada needs is a real bicameral system.

Currently in Canada we vote for our MP based primarily on who is the leader of the Party rather than on the merits of the MP. This is wrong. We should have a vote for our MP and then have a separate vote for who we want to be PM.

As the last election showed, and many before this one, a lot of good MPs get swept under the rug due to the fact that when people are voting for an MP they are also de facto voting for a PM as well.

The two should be kept separate, a vote for your MP and separate vote for PM.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> The first major reform that Canada needs is a real bicameral system.


It's impossible to take anything the author notes seriously when he endorses not only the socialist stimulus program & the biggest boondoggle of Barrie's career (yes the Charlie Foxtrot itself, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor") but also the whole climate change BS.

After that, nothing he says about another country's election reform holds a drop of water.

Sorry...


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> It's impossible to take anything the author notes seriously when he endorses not only the socialist stimulus program & the biggest boondoggle of Barrie's career (yes the Charlie Foxtrot itself, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor") but also the whole climate change BS.
> 
> After that, nothing he says about another country's election reform holds a drop of water.
> 
> Sorry...


Yup.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Canada's New Government Makes Its First Big Mistake
> 
> 
> 
> The first major reform that Canada needs is a real bicameral system.
> 
> 
> 
> Currently in Canada we vote for our MP based primarily on who is the leader of the Party rather than on the merits of the MP. This is wrong. We should have a vote for our MP and then have a separate vote for who we want to be PM.
> 
> 
> 
> As the last election showed, and many before this one, a lot of good MPs get swept under the rug due to the fact that when people are voting for an MP they are also de facto voting for a PM as well.
> 
> 
> 
> The two should be kept separate, a vote for your MP and separate vote for PM.



Why not just move to the US? You could have your wish and the whole system would not have to change to appease you. Of course, you'd have to become an American citizen before you could vote. 

Only parties in opposition seem to be big on changing to some form of proportional representation. Why? Because it only favours the opposition, not the government. Why didn't the Con-supporters clamour for this change while the Cons were still in power? That's why. 


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## fjnmusic

By the way, I'm Stephen. 

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news...eal+encounters+with+prime/11610526/story.html


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## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> By the way, I'm Stephen.
> 
> ‘I'm Stephen, by the way': Canadians report their ‘surreal' encounters with the ex-prime minister
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Geez, an eight day old link that has been all over the news and you are just now noticing it?


----------



## Macfury

I never supported proportional. I think it's an abomination.



fjnmusic said:


> Why not just move to the US? You could have your wish and the whole system would not have to change to appease you. Of course, you'd have to become an American citizen before you could vote.
> 
> Only parties in opposition seem to be big on changing to some form of proportional representation. Why? Because it only favours the opposition, not the government. Why didn't the Con-supporters clamour for this change while the Cons were still in power? That's why.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Why not just move to the US? You could have your wish and the whole system would not have to change to appease you. Of course, you'd have to become an American citizen before you could vote.
> 
> Only parties in opposition seem to be big on changing to some form of proportional representation. Why? Because it only favours the opposition, not the government. Why didn't the Con-supporters clamour for this change while the Cons were still in power? That's why.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Once again you have to make things personal rather than have an intellectual debate. 

It is *not* about becoming more like the US it is about the reality of our Parliament and how if needs reform.

Now I will get personal... as per usual you are so lost looking at the trees you cannot see the forest.

This is my final post to you.

Good bye, good luck and have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Geez, an eight day old link that has been all over the news and you are just now noticing it?



That's all you have to say? I thought it was pretty funny. Who cares when it came out. Must be a relief for the poor guy to be out of the spot light anyway.


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## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I never supported proportional. I think it's an abomination.



Well there's something we can agree on. I think PR is a lot like what Churchill had to say about democracy: Democracy is the worst possible form of government, with the exception of all the rest.


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## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Once again you have to make things personal rather than have an intellectual debate.
> 
> 
> 
> It is *not* about becoming more like the US it is about the reality of our Parliament and how if needs reform.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I will get personal... as per usual you are so lost looking at the trees you cannot see the forest.
> 
> 
> 
> This is my final post to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Good bye, good luck and have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.



Strange place to end the conversation, but your call. May the Force be with you.


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## Rps

I don't think the Feds should be allowed to change the electoral system.....you can bet it will be slanted in the ruling governments favour. But it needs to be reformed as our population base skews the electoral riding to favour "city-states". I am a firm believer in an EE Senate whose election would be mid term of the house.....this would require a fixed term and exact fixed date of the election......which means no defeat on a non confidence motion.

But we have had this argument before. What would be preferred is that the provinces decide how the reform should be and submit it to the Feds......for those who like FPTP, this would mean it would be around for many many years......


----------



## Vandave

I think FPTP has served us well. I think it would be a mistake to change it. These other systems are stupid. You just empower extreme voices. Having one seat and the balance of power is equivalent to having 100 seats. Dumb. I don't want the PITA party or Christian Heritage Party having that power over a government. 

I think the Senate should be reformed or removed.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I think FPTP has served us well. I think it would be a mistake to change it. These other systems are stupid. You just empower extreme voices. Having one seat and the balance of power is equivalent to having 100 seats. Dumb. I don't want the PITA party or Christian Heritage Party having that power over a government.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Senate should be reformed or removed.



FPTP is the most unfair system of voting ever....with the exception of all the rest. 


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> FPTP is the most unfair system of voting ever....with the exception of all the rest.


That's not just a meme either. For all it's obvious faults, FPTP is still far better than anything it's opponents propose as an alternative.


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> FPTP is the most unfair system of voting ever....with the exception of all the rest.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the real issue is cost and time. Currently we have an election and the person with the most votes wins, however, since we have many people running in any given area, those votes could be ridiculously small ( 10 people running and the winner gets 11% of the votes the others get an average of 10%, or 89 % voted against you ). If we want a fairer approach, then we need a hurdle rate and the bottom people drop out and we vote again until you have a majority.....I am not advocating a two party system here, but reelection until you get a majority. Thus FPTP in this instance would work, and it would incorporate a proportional approach.....the issue...time and money.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> ..since we have many people running in any given area, those votes could be ridiculously small ( 10 people running and the winner gets 11% of the votes the others get an average of 10%, or 89 % voted against you ).


That's fine by me.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> I think the real issue is cost and time. Currently we have an election and the person with the most votes wins, however, since we have many people running in any given area, those votes could be ridiculously small ( 10 people running and the winner gets 11% of the votes the others get an average of 10%, or 89 % voted against you ). If we want a fairer approach, then we need a hurdle rate and the bottom people drop out and we vote again until you have a majority.....I am not advocating a two party system here, but reelection until you get a majority. Thus FPTP in this instance would work, and it would incorporate a proportional approach.....the issue...time and money.



We already do this, only we do it within parties to decide who the representative in a given riding will be, or to decide who the leader of the party will be. It does get kind of cumbersome however, and when we're talking about a multi-party system in a general election, it's damn near impossible. With only two candidates in any riding, it would be impossible for the winner not to have more than 50% of the votes. Imagine divvying up the bite after an election and then appointing people to represent constituencies. If the complaining is bad now, where you can at least identify the winner who gets the seat, the complaints would be ten times worse the other way. 


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## fjnmusic

Karma.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business/peter-munk-political-donations-1.3386784


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## Macfury

Munk is a generous philanthropist. It truly is karma that he will not be charged for the oversight.



fjnmusic said:


> Karma.
> 
> Mine magnate Peter Munk donated too much to Conservatives 3 times - Business - CBC News
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> I think the real issue is cost and time. Currently we have an election and the person with the most votes wins, however, since we have many people running in any given area, those votes could be ridiculously small ( 10 people running and the winner gets 11% of the votes the others get an average of 10%, or 89 % voted against you ). If we want a fairer approach, then we need a hurdle rate and the bottom people drop out and we vote again until you have a majority.....I am not advocating a two party system here, but reelection until you get a majority. Thus FPTP in this instance would work, and it would incorporate a proportional approach.....the issue...time and money.


This is already done in some countries at least when voting for president. No evidence that they are any more/less corrupt than Canadian governments.


----------



## Dr.G.

An interesting perspective.

Introducing 'Bob from Edmonton,' the man behind the Times' most popular comment - Edmonton - CBC News


----------



## SINC

bump to see last post.


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> I think FPTP has served us well. I think it would be a mistake to change it. These other systems are stupid. You just empower extreme voices. Having one seat and the balance of power is equivalent to having 100 seats. Dumb. I don't want the PITA party or Christian Heritage Party having that power over a government.
> 
> I think the Senate should be reformed or removed.


FPTP has not served us well so long as voting for an MP is the same thing as voting for a PM.

They should be separated.

C'mon when you can receive a minority vote and still achieve a majority in Parliament with a a PM who only has 30% of the vote there is something wrong. Just like is was with Stephen Harper and now all the lefties are saying everything is OK.

What is good for the goose should be god for the gander.

It is passing strange how the lefties complain about our system of government is wrong when they are in opposition but will say it is OK when they are in power...

Same as it ever was....

Except for Michael Chong... Remember him, a *CPC* backbencher, who tried to alter the balance of power! It was was voted in favour of by the majority in the HoC.

No NDP, Lib, or Green ever had the balls to try and do it!

So please all you lefties please stop trying to take the high ground when it comes to Parliamentary Reform, because the only MP who was able to achieve all party support (except for the Greens) was a a CPC member of Parliament.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> C'mon when you can receive a minority vote and still achieve a majority in Parliament with a a PM who only has 30% of the vote there is something wrong.


It's not "30% of the vote". It's the most popular choice in the highest number of ridings. That is far more democratic. It prevents a place like Toronto being able to make policy for the whole country, and it allows for widest array of choices that can appeal to the most number of people. Everyone who didn't vote for the winner in their riding, each voted for someone who got even less votes.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> It's not "30% of the vote". It's the most popular choice in the highest number of ridings. That is far more democratic. It prevents a place like Toronto being able to make policy for the whole country, and it allows for widest array of choices that can appeal to the most number of people. Everyone who didn't vote for the winner in their riding, each voted for someone who got even less votes.


It embarrasses me sometimes to see how Toronto votes. Tough Edmonton has given it a run for its money.


----------



## bse5150

heavyall said:


> It's not "30% of the vote". It's the most popular choice in the highest number of ridings. That is far more democratic. It prevents a place like Toronto being able to make policy for the whole country, and it allows for widest array of choices that can appeal to the most number of people. Everyone who didn't vote for the winner in their riding, each voted for someone who got even less votes.


The election is over before the polls even close in the west. Voting in the west is merely a formality.


----------



## CubaMark

_Interesting how much of Canada at the Federal (Conservatives-->Liberals) and Provincial (Alberta, Newfoundland) is dealing with attempting to fix the mess left behind by a Right-leaning government.

Newfoundland & Labrador's situation is covered in this piece from Maclean's:_

*The Rock's in a hard place: Why things look bleak for Newfoundland*

The province’s finances are in shambles—the deficit has ballooned to $1.96 billion thanks to plunging oil and gas revenues, according to a recent fiscal update....

* * *​
...at seven per cent of GDP, the province’s red ink isn’t something that can be fudged away. It’s on par with Greece’s average deficit-to-GDP ratio over the past two decades.

* * *​
The turn of events is shocking considering it was only a few years ago that Newfoundland’s oil-fueled economy was hailed as one of the country’s fastest-growing. But it is hardly a surprise. Last spring, the previous Progressive Conservative government forecasted a $1.1-billion budget shortfall based on an average oil price of US$62 a barrel. With oil now at US$36, it wasn’t difficult to do the math.

* * *​
...the government doesn’t have much room to maneuver thanks to the province’s unique economic challenges and the Liberals’ own election promises. Oil and gas now accounts for nearly 30 per cent of the province’s economy, making Newfoundland and Labrador more exposed to swings in crude prices than even Alberta. At the same time, a third of Newfoundlanders are employed by the government, far higher than the national average. No wonder, then, that Ball is promising not to lay off any government workers. Doing so could arguably make the province’s bleak economic situation that much worse.​


----------



## Macfury

That analysis is idiotic. Newfoundland was in a mess before the oil boom. It is returning from whence it came.



CubaMark said:


> _Interesting how much of Canada at the Federal (Conservatives-->Liberals) and Provincial (Alberta, Newfoundland) is dealing with attempting to fix the mess left behind by a Right-leaning government.
> 
> Newfoundland & Labrador's situation is covered in this piece from Maclean's:_
> 
> *The Rock's in a hard place: Why things look bleak for Newfoundland*
> 
> The province’s finances are in shambles—the deficit has ballooned to $1.96 billion thanks to plunging oil and gas revenues, according to a recent fiscal update....
> 
> * * *​
> ...at seven per cent of GDP, the province’s red ink isn’t something that can be fudged away. It’s on par with Greece’s average deficit-to-GDP ratio over the past two decades.
> 
> * * *​
> The turn of events is shocking considering it was only a few years ago that Newfoundland’s oil-fueled economy was hailed as one of the country’s fastest-growing. But it is hardly a surprise. Last spring, the previous Progressive Conservative government forecasted a $1.1-billion budget shortfall based on an average oil price of US$62 a barrel. With oil now at US$36, it wasn’t difficult to do the math.
> 
> * * *​
> ...the government doesn’t have much room to maneuver thanks to the province’s unique economic challenges and the Liberals’ own election promises. Oil and gas now accounts for nearly 30 per cent of the province’s economy, making Newfoundland and Labrador more exposed to swings in crude prices than even Alberta. At the same time, a third of Newfoundlanders are employed by the government, far higher than the national average. No wonder, then, that Ball is promising not to lay off any government workers. Doing so could arguably make the province’s bleak economic situation that much worse.​


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> An interesting perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> Introducing 'Bob from Edmonton,' the man behind the Times' most popular comment - Edmonton - CBC News



I saw this in the Journal this morning! #1 Tweet for 2015 and he's not even from Calgary. Hilarious—and it's aimed directly at those Murkans who like to diss the Canadian "socialist" economy—what we call a mixed economy. They have one too, just weighted far more heavily toward free enterprise. They're also in much deeper debt than we are. Chalk one up for Canadian ingenuity! 


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----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> FPTP has not served us well so long as voting for an MP is the same thing as voting for a PM.
> 
> 
> 
> They should be separated.
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon when you can receive a minority vote and still achieve a majority in Parliament with a a PM who only has 30% of the vote there is something wrong. Just like is was with Stephen Harper and now all the lefties are saying everything is OK.
> 
> 
> 
> What is good for the goose should be god for the gander.
> 
> 
> 
> It is passing strange how the lefties complain about our system of government is wrong when they are in opposition but will say it is OK when they are in power...
> 
> 
> 
> Same as it ever was....
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Michael Chong... Remember him, a *CPC* backbencher, who tried to alter the balance of power! It was was voted in favour of by the majority in the HoC.
> 
> 
> 
> No NDP, Lib, or Green ever had the balls to try and do it!
> 
> 
> 
> So please all you lefties please stop trying to take the high ground when it comes to Parliamentary Reform, because the only MP who was able to achieve all party support (except for the Greens) was a a CPC member of Parliament.



You probably won't read this and you've already vowed you won't respond, but I'm writing it anyway for those who may read or respond to it. 

If you separate the leader from the party, then you have double the problem because the PM must always convince the caucus to go along with their plan. It's the problem in the US right now, where the President swings one way but the majority of the other reps go the other way. Hard to get anything done when you're always canvassing for support. I don't think your solution is a viable one.

There. Made my point, and I don't even have to worry about you responding to tell me how wrong I am. Best of both worlds. 

P.S. And I've never advocated for parliamentary reform, even though I'm a "lefty," because I see all the mathematical problems with using popular vote to decide who the reps will be. FPTP works well enough. I don't know what Trudeau has planned for reform; I'd have to see it before commenting.


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----------



## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> It's not "30% of the vote". It's the most popular choice in the highest number of ridings. That is far more democratic. It prevents a place like Toronto being able to make policy for the whole country, and it allows for widest array of choices that can appeal to the most number of people. Everyone who didn't vote for the winner in their riding, each voted for someone who got even less votes.



Exactly. It's sad how many people do not understand the difference between popular vote and seat count. The wing party won a large majority of the seats available—that's all they needed to do. 40% of the popular vote in a multi-party representative democracy is actually a very strong showing. 


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## fjnmusic

bse5150 said:


> The election is over before the polls even close in the west. Voting in the west is merely a formality.



It can influence whether there will be minority or majority government. Don't kid yourself about the importance of that "little" difference. 


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## SINC

Canada slowly realizing the mistake they made electing JT?

https://medium.com/@Pollmaster/poll...ppy-as-media-suggests-be7f2c57accc#.hh9m08bq9


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Canada slowly realizing the mistake they made electing JT?
> 
> 
> 
> https://medium.com/@Pollmaster/poll...ppy-as-media-suggests-be7f2c57accc#.hh9m08bq9



Buyer's remorse. Inevitable. Happens after ever election. Surely you're not just discovering this now for the first time?


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## SINC

Oh the harm they will do to your wallet.

Canada?s carbon pricing is a fraud


----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> Buyer's remorse. Inevitable. Happens after ever election. Surely you're not just discovering this now for the first time?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I would like to see the actual poll. I beliee that I read most leaders go up in popularity for the first 6 to 12 months.


----------



## screature

It seems that most here are happy with...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






I for one, am not.

Same as it ever was...

Next, get rid of the Whipping system.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

But it doesn't matter when the Liberals do it...

New Canadian Government Breaks Promise of Pension Improvements



> Amid much fanfare, Liberal Party leader Justin Trudeau made a promise on September 14 to boost the old age pensions of Canadians should his party win election on October 19.


More:



> Regardless, even the modest Liberal wish-list was placed on hold when provincial finance ministers met with their federal counterpart on December 21. The Star‘s Walkom reports, “They are not doing anything. They are not even bothering to make empty promises about doing anything. After hosting a federal-provincial meeting this week that dealt with the CPP, all Finance Minister Bill Morneau could provide was a promise to study the issue further and meet again.
> 
> “It was hardly an example of the federal leadership that Trudeau had promised during the election campaign.”
> 
> Yes, you read that right. *Barely two months after winning election, and three months after promising to move heaven and earth to improve public pensions, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberal government have shelved this key election promise on social policy.*


M'bold.

When you've lost the _Red Star_...


----------



## Macfury

Kathleen Wynne was orgasmic over that fed promise. What a shame...



FeXL said:


> But it doesn't matter when the Liberals do it...
> 
> New Canadian Government Breaks Promise of Pension Improvements


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Kathleen Wynne was orgasmic...


Ewww...


----------



## fjnmusic

Security not being watchful enough at airports for you? I'd suggest that at times they're a little TOO watchful.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...canadian-toddlers-as-security-risks-1.3388927


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## screature

More and more children are being used as pawns by ISIS and other militant groups by their parents. It is not surprising and the level of security is appropriate considering the potential threat... hundreds of people being killed.

It is only the bleeding heats that have a problem with it.


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> Security not being watchful enough at airports for you? I'd suggest that at times they're a little TOO watchful.
> No-fly list flags more Canadian toddlers as security risks - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seems to be one of the Bill C-51 bonuses. A chance for the power types to abuse anyone with a name they don't like. 

So far all of the attempts to justify this have been pure bull.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Seems to be one of the Bill C-51 bonuses. A chance for the power types to abuse anyone with a name they don't like.
> 
> So far all of the attempts to justify this have been pure bull.



So what if you we have to slander the reputations of innocent law-abiding citizens (and especially pre-verbal ones, who could communicate using coded hand signals) as long as it makes Canadians feel safer? 


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----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

A free trade deal with Beijing??!! 

Terry Glavin: The Liberals, in their rush to embrace Beijing’s thugs, prefer to gloss over some uncomfortable truths



> The dynastic Liberal Desmarais family has been “consulted,” of course. The Canada China Business Council’s (CCBC) Peter Harder, after having managed the Trudeau team’s “transition” into the Prime Minister’s Office, is readily at hand for background briefings. On the national television networks, chummy banter substitutes for serious interviews with Beijing’s telegenic Canadian think-tank sycophants, all of whom express boundless admiration for the Trudeau government’s invigorating enthusiasm for Chinese business opportunities.
> 
> There are any number of troubling questions raised by all this, but this one stands out above all the others: *just how stupid do these people think we are, anyway?*


M'bold.

Hey, I guess somebody voted for them...

Further:



> If that’s the kind of regime that Trudeau’s shiny new Liberals want to embrace in a free trade agreement, then fine, let’s have this conversation. *But a little less of the sanctimonious hogwash about sunny ways, and a hell of a lot less of the cheap propaganda, please.*


M'bold.

Nails it.


----------



## SINC

But it's 2016 now.


----------



## SINC

And more goodies to come?


----------



## Macfury

So far I'm not enjoying Trudeau's stewardship of the economy. If I were JT I'd be calling Stephen Harper and begging for advice.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> So far I'm not enjoying Trudeau's stewardship of the economy. If I were JT I'd be calling Stephen Harper and begging for advice.


Yep, this pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Macfury

*Because it's 2016!*



SINC said:


> Yep, this pretty much sums it up.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep, this pretty much sums it up.


Amen brother, and also National Security.

It seems JT thinks we exist in some sort of bubble where we are immune to what is going on in the rest of the world.

Sadly for the rest of us he is mistaken.

I think I may buy more gold....


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> So far I'm not enjoying Trudeau's stewardship of the economy. If I were JT I'd be calling Stephen Harper and begging for advice.


Not to be argumentative, but Mr. Trudeau did not cause this financial chaos and it didn't just happen when he took office.....so for the last 2 years what did our PM Mr. Harper do to counter this?...........is that cricket noises I hear.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Not to be argumentative, but Mr. Trudeau did not cause this financial chaos and it didn't just happen when he took office.....so for the last 2 years what did our PM Mr. Harper do to counter this?...........is that cricket noises I hear.


If this had been happening for the last two years, and it was predictable, why did Justin Trudeau want to take office? Why didn't he make this prediction part of his "Sunny Ways" platform?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> If this had been happening for the last two years, and it was predictable, why did Justin Trudeau want to take office? Why didn't he make this prediction part of his "Sunny Ways" platform?



So what part of the economy was Long standing PM Stephen Harper and his team in Ottawa actually responsible for? This is like saying all of the trillions of dollars of debt accumulated under George W Bush are somehow Obama's fault, even though Clinton left Bush is pretty good financial shape.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I haven't yet addressed responsibility. I asked:"If it was predictable, why did Trudeau not predict it?"



fjnmusic said:


> So what part of the economy was Long standing PM Stephen Harper and his team in Ottawa actually responsible for? This is like saying all of the trillions of dollars of debt accumulated under George W Bush are somehow Obama's fault, even though Clinton left Bush is pretty good financial shape.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I haven't yet addressed responsibility. I asked:"If it was predictable, why did Trudeau not predict it?"


Wow! I can't believe you would even ask this question.......run many political campaigns lately. Remember the first rule of government is to get elected not govern.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Wow! I can't believe you would even ask this question.......run many political campaigns lately. Remember the first rule of government is to get elected not govern.


Then why did he not begin addressing it when he became elected, instead of his current approach--staring like a deer caught in the headlights?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Then why did he not begin addressing it when he became elected, instead of his current approach--staring like a deer caught in the headlights?


This is an application of rule 1. Why would you vote for a party which states things are so bad we don't know what to do, they are out of Canada's control, and will last until somebody somewhere in another country fixes things.....by the way aren't we a kind caring country saving those same refugees from themselves.....the world will love us..


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> This is an application of rule 1. Why would you vote for a party which states things are so bad we don't know what to do, they are out of Canada's control, and will last until somebody somewhere in another country fixes things.....by the way aren't we a kind caring country saving those same refugees from themselves.....the world will love us..


Ah, so JT deliberately added people who would be difficult to employ to an economy he knew was tanking as a publicity stunt?


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> So what part of the economy was Long standing PM Stephen Harper and his team in Ottawa actually responsible for? This is like saying all of the trillions of dollars of debt accumulated under George W Bush are somehow Obama's fault, even though Clinton left Bush is pretty good financial shape.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually Clinton sowed the seeds for the 2008 financial crisis by rescinding the Glass-Steagall Act. And, Obama has done little to right that wrong. Not to derail the thread, and I apologise but the GS act was put in place for a reason. Outside influences can damage economies quicker than anything....especially what I call dependent economies, such as Alberta.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Ah, so JT deliberately added people who would be difficult to employ to an economy he knew was tanking as a publicity stunt?


When media and ideology collide. This would be rule 2 which states government legislation invariably hurts those it is designed to protect. I think you are a supporter of this rule....I don't mean this as a slam.....many believe legislation is overly burdensome and works against people.


----------



## Macfury

No, I believe that some government regulations work just fine to achieve the intended result. However, government policy is something different than regulation.



Rps said:


> When media and ideology collide. This would be rule 2 which states government legislation invariably hurts those it is designed to protect. I think you are a supporter of this rule....I don't mean this as a slam.....many believe legislation is overly burdensome and works against people.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Actually Clinton sowed the seeds for the 2008 financial crisis by rescinding the Glass-Steagall Act. And, Obama has done little to right that wrong. Not to derail the thread, and I apologise but the GS act was put in place for a reason. Outside influences can damage economies quicker than anything....especially *what I call dependent economies*, such as Alberta.


What economies aren't "dependent"?

Saskatchewan: Potash
Ontario: Manufacturing
The East Coast: Fisheries
NFLD: Fisheries and lately oil
Quebec: Hydro electricity
Manitoba: the Federal government
BC: Probably the most diversified economy in Canada, Tourism, Forestry, Fisheries, Wine production, Fruits and Orchards, some production.

This is a simplified list but I hope you get my point.

It all depends on what resources you have in abundance. For example, In some parts of the world economies are based upon cheap abundant labour.

All economies are "dependent" in one way or another. Canada's economy on the whole is largely "dependent" upon us sharing a border with the US.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Actually Clinton sowed the seeds for the 2008 financial crisis by rescinding the Glass-Steagall Act. And, Obama has done little to right that wrong.


The current bubble is based on inflated equity assets plumped up by quantitative easing. That's what is deflating now.


----------



## SINC

And so begins Canada's fall from grace internationally as a result of the boy wonder's policy on ISIS:

Canada not invited to anti-ISIS coalition meeting in Paris - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Rps

Screature, this is my point exactly....and it is much more harmful at a provincial level.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> The current bubble is based on inflated equity assets plumped up by quantitative easing. That's what is deflating now.


Basically, the ABCP has been rebranded and they are at it again!


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> And so begins Canada's fall from grace internationally as a result of the boy wonder's policy on ISIS:
> 
> Canada not invited to anti-ISIS coalition meeting in Paris - Politics - CBC News


You don't tend to invite people to the party who are leaving it.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> You don't tend to invite people to the party who are leaving it.


The majority of Canadians I know disagree that we should be "leaving", which was my point. 

Does the word 'chicken****' come to mind when abandoning our allies and leaving them to fight on our behalf?


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> The majority of Canadians I know disagree that we should be "leaving", which was my point.
> 
> Does the word 'chicken****' come to mind when abandoning our allies and leaving them to fight on our behalf?


I don't think chickensh*t would be my choice, but they are surely short sighted. I can 
understand not wanting a ground war, this is an insurgent war with enough weapons strewn over the landscape that it is like a military buffet there. I think we should let THEIR armies take the towns, but it is indeed logical that air power should be used to hem them in. If we don't then we will be back there and it won't be pretty...can you say Veitnam! Mr. Trudeau should listen to the combat partners, and I think most Canadians would agree with your view on this Sinc!


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> I don't think chickensh*t would be my choice, but they are surely short sighted. I can
> understand not wanting a ground war, this is an insurgent war with enough weapons strewn over the landscape that it is like a military buffet there. I think we should let THEIR armies take the towns, but it is indeed logical that air power should be used to hem them in. If we don't then we will be back there and it won't be pretty...can you say Veitnam! Mr. Trudeau should listen to the combat partners, and I think most Canadians would agree with your view on this Sinc!


I would bet my last dollar that is exactly the word the military types in charge of the operations against ISIS use to describe our PM.


----------



## eMacMan

Let's see ISIS is essentially a bunch of mercenaries, originally funded and trained by the CIA and other western organizations, to apply additional pressure to Syria and further destabilize Iraq and and Libya. Doubt it? So how come almost all of their activity is in Syria, Iraq and Libya?

Currently their funding seems to be mainly from the Saudis and they are selling stolen oil through Turkey. Both supposed allies.

So why on earth should Canadians pay to bomb a bunch of mercenaries our so called allies created and support??????????????????

The only ones to seriously attack ISIS have been the Russians. Somehow western bombing runs seem to always fall on Syrian infra-structure. Why should Canadians pay to make the refugee situation worse than it already is?

Seriously the best way to stop ISIS is to stop selling them arms, and to stop funding them. Ain't gonna happen cause the hawks don't want to do anything to harm the profits of the war based MIC.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> And so begins Canada's fall from grace internationally as a result of the boy wonder's policy on ISIS


Related:

Condemn Burkina Faso terror attack ‘with airplanes’ not just words, victim’s mother tells Trudeau



> “I want Justin Trudeau, instead of condemning (the attacks) solely with words and his little mouth, to do it with airplanes,” Camille Carrier, mother of 37-year-old victim Maude Carrier, told Montreal’s 98.5 FM on Monday. “I am ashamed.”


More:



> To the television station TVA, Carrier said Monday, “*I’m revolted … (Justin Trudeau) walks around with his nice hair spouting his empty theories*, he’s on television condemning things but he’s not capable of joining in with the others who are supporting the French.”


M'bold.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, this is my point exactly....and it is much more harmful at a provincial level.


Ok but, but what economies are not dependent? You pointed out Alberta, do have any economies in mind in the the world that are truly functionally independent?

If so how well are they doing relative to their peers who are "dependent"?


----------



## Rps

Well, you won't like my answer, but the U.S. has one which could support itself if it locked the borders....maybe they would not be as rich but they could be sustaining. Our economy as a nation is not as bad as the media has portrayed it, our dollar is not the economy, oil and gas is a part of it, but it is not our economy. Our GDP though slight growth is still in a northern direction. I think Mr. Harper understood this better than most, but was a poor communicator. Alberta is really resourced based and is con stained by world markets (read U.S.)


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Well, you won't like my answer, but the U.S. has one which could support itself if it locked the borders....maybe they would not be as rich but they could be sustaining. Our economy as a nation is not as bad as the media has portrayed it, our dollar is not the economy, oil and gas is a part of it, but it is not our economy. Our GDP though slight growth is still in a northern direction. I think Mr. Harper understood this better than most, but was a poor communicator. Alberta is really resourced based and is con stained by world markets (read U.S.)


No your answer is along the lines of what I expected in terms of possibilities. Except for the fact of the tremendous debt they have, which is primarily owed to China, so if they shut down their borders how could they possibly repay their debt?. They couldn't and so they are dependent on/indebted to other countries around the world to sustain their economy, once again primarily China. Also if they shut down their borders they would lose their largest trading partner, Canada and so their economy would collapse in short order.

The closest that I can see as being an "independent" economy is Cuba. But they are a tiny country and their standard of living is very low relative to their peers.

By far and large the economies of the world are *interdependent*, thus why we can have global downturns of economies simultaneously... A house of cards.

I agree with your comments about PM Harper.


----------



## Macfury

Alberta is only a little north of 20 per cent resource based. Much higher 20 year ago.



Rps said:


> Well, you won't like my answer, but the U.S. has one which could support itself if it locked the borders....maybe they would not be as rich but they could be sustaining. Our economy as a nation is not as bad as the media has portrayed it, our dollar is not the economy, oil and gas is a part of it, but it is not our economy. Our GDP though slight growth is still in a northern direction. I think Mr. Harper understood this better than most, but was a poor communicator. Alberta is really resourced based and is con stained by world markets (read U.S.)


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Alberta is only a little north of 20 per cent resource based. Much higher 20 year ago.


Source? Not saying you are wrong, just surprised if true.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Let's see ISIS is essentially a bunch of mercenaries, originally funded and trained by the CIA and other western organizations, to apply additional pressure to Syria and further destabilize Iraq and and Libya. Doubt it? So how come almost all of their activity is in Syria, Iraq and Libya?
> 
> Currently their funding seems to be mainly from the Saudis and they are selling stolen oil through Turkey. Both supposed allies.
> 
> So why on earth should Canadians pay to bomb a bunch of mercenaries our so called allies created and support??????????????????
> 
> The only ones to seriously attack ISIS have been the Russians. Somehow western bombing runs seem to always fall on Syrian infra-structure. Why should Canadians pay to make the refugee situation worse than it already is?
> 
> Seriously the best way to stop ISIS is to stop selling them arms, and to stop funding them. Ain't gonna happen cause the hawks don't want to do anything to harm the profits of the war based MIC.


Had the allies in WWII followed this type of logic, we would be communicating today in German. That is of course, if we were even allowed to communicate.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Source? Not saying you are wrong, just surprised if true.


Alberta says 24.6% in 2013.

https://www.albertacanada.com/business/overview/economic-results.aspx


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Alberta says 24.6% in 2013.
> 
> https://www.albertacanada.com/business/overview/economic-results.aspx


Thanks MF for the numbers. Your statement was correct, but they don't tell the bigger picture.

The numbers indicate that Alberta's economy is still dependent upon energy production. It constitutes more than 1/4 of the province's GDP (more than double the next closest sector) and as for the smaller sectors they wouldn't be as big if Alberta had no oil. The next biggest part of their economy in 2013 was "Business and Communication Services". How do you think that came about?... Because they had oil!

As I said previously, economies are largely interdependent and the difference between 1985 and 2013 in Alberta is just further evidence.

Alberta grew it's economy based on their oil so they could grow their economy in other ways. That their percentage of GDP based on energy production has fallen does not mean their economy is not still primarily based on oil and has been for 30 years... at least.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> No your answer is along the lines of what I expected in terms of possibilities. Except for the fact of the tremendous debt they have, which is primarily owed to China, so if they shut down their borders how could they possibly repay their debt?. They couldn't and so they are dependent on/indebted to other countries around the world to sustain their economy, once again primarily China. Also if they shut down their borders they would lose their largest trading partner, Canada and so their economy would collapse in short order.
> 
> The closest that I can see as being an "independent" economy is Cuba. But they are a tiny country and their standard of living is very low relative to their peers.
> 
> By far and large the economies of the world are *interdependent*, thus why we can have global downturns of economies simultaneously... A house of cards.
> 
> I agree with your comments about PM Harper.


Screature, my assumption is based on the U.S. Not paying their debt.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, my assumption is based on the U.S. Not paying their debt.


But their debt is part of their economy. They have to pay interest on that debt (just like all countries).

You cannot just simply willy nilly separate the two in abstraction as some sort of thought experiment. In reality as it it exists now, they are twisted/intertwined together like a giant ball of elastics.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Had the allies in WWII followed this type of logic, we would be communicating today in German. That is of course, if we were even allowed to communicate.


Seriously. ISIS is hardly a threat to anyone. The west has the ability to pull the rug out from their arms supplies and their funding. Without the funding the mercenaries will go home or start working for whomever is currently offering the second highest pay. With out weapons they would lose interest entirely. FWIW many followers of ISLAM, consider ISIS to be anti-Islamic, based mainly on ISIS continually doing everything possible to stir the anti-Islam propaganda pot.

As to what would have happened had Britain not taken on Germany. In all likelihood Hitler would have used his corridor through Poland to attack Russia, without giving a second thought to France or any of the other nations he ultimately invaded. There is no way to be certain of this but it would be consistent with what is known about his intents at the time. Had that happened Germany and Russia would have fought a long drawn out stand-off, and the world might well have been a better place. I suspect the same number of Jews would have died, but perhaps the tens of millions who died when the Soviets marched on Germany, might well have been spared.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Seriously. *ISIS is hardly a threat to anyone. The west has the ability to pull the rug out from their arms supplies and their funding.* Without the funding the mercenaries will go home or start working for whomever is currently offering the second highest pay. With out weapons they would lose interest entirely. FWIW many followers of ISLAM, consider ISIS to be anti-Islamic, based mainly on ISIS continually doing everything possible to stir the anti-Islam propaganda pot.
> 
> *As to what would have happened had Britain not taken on Germany. In all likelihood Hitler would have used his corridor through Poland to attack Russia, without giving a second thought to France or any of the other nations he ultimately invaded. There is no way to be certain of this but it would be consistent with what is known about his intents at the time. Had that happened Germany and Russia would have fought a long drawn out stand-off, and the world might well have been a better place. I suspect the same number of Jews would have died, but perhaps the tens of millions who died when the Soviets marched on Germany, might well have been spared.*


You know what, history is what it is and we cannot be worried about what "might have been". We all have to face that fact whether it is personal, political, economic, social, religious, etc., etc., etc.

ISIS and their ilk are a HUGE and premeditated threat to the rest of the world who don't agree with them.

ISIS exists primarily from the fallout of the the US invasion of Iraq, the "Arab Spring" and the deaths of Hussein and Gaddafi. But it continues to exist primarily because of Putin or should I say Russia vs. the rest of the world. The cold war is not over under Putin... there was some hope with Gorbachev but those days are long gone now.

The US is certainly not innocent regarding the reasons for the existence of ISIS, (like Colin Powelll said, and he was right, "If you break it, you own it...) but the US is not directly responsible for ISIS's continued existence, that responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of Russia and their allies.


----------



## SINC

More examples of 'leadership' . . .

Trudeau's mosque visit raises questions | Furey | Columnists | Opinion | Calgary


----------



## FeXL

What politicians do when they're caught lying...

Wynne hits reverse on auto insurance rate pledge



> Premier Kathleen Wynne says her government’s target to cut auto insurance rates by 15 per cent by last year was a “stretch goal.”
> 
> The Liberals promised to reduce car insurance premiums an average of 15 per cent by August 2015 as part of a deal to get NDP support for the 2013 budget when they were still a minority government.
> 
> But August came and went with the government’s target not even halfway met.


----------



## eMacMan

I know the official con-spin doctrine is to blame Russia for everything. However it is the Western Powers who have been working diligently to destabilize the middle east. 

Where has ISIS been most active? Iraq Libya and Syria. Nations already under direct attack from the so-called good guys. That certainly is not Russian control. OTOH I suspect Putin is more than a little gleeful at all the refugees descending on the western nations. A truly just reward for all the Iraq/Libyan/Syrian shenanigans of the NATO Cabal.

As an aside I notice that Jihadi John is now officially deceased for at least the third time!


----------



## eMacMan

*The Harper's Revenge*

Retribution for turfing the cons?
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dai...ity-mailboxes-freeze-up-across-194051872.html

Like he could not possibly have seen this coming. Or perhaps he honestly believed the lamestream propaganda about Global Warming.



> Old Man Winter is causing Canadians a variety of hassles from slippery roads to cancelled flights. Frozen mailboxes can also be added to the list, as people across Canada report that they’re locked out of their community mailboxes.
> 
> In recent weeks, residents in Quebec, Prince Edward Island, Ontario and Newfoundland and Labrador have reported being locked out of community mailboxes for days when locks are jammed shut because of ice and cold weather.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *I know the official con-spin doctrine is to blame Russia for everything. However it is the Western Powers who have been working diligently to destabilize the middle east. *
> 
> Where has ISIS been most active? Iraq Libya and Syria. Nations already under direct attack from the so-called good guys. That certainly is not Russian control. OTOH I suspect Putin is more than a little gleeful at all the refugees descending on the western nations. A truly just reward for all the Iraq/Libyan/Syrian shenanigans of the NATO Cabal.
> 
> As an aside I notice that Jihadi John is now officially deceased for at least the third time!


BS on all accounts. No one is blaming Russia just their leadership at this point in time, namely Putin who has shown directly his meddling ways by putting troops on the ground in Ukraine and his willingness to support Bashar al-Assad.

Iraq and Syria are not under attack in no way shape or form, ISIS in those countries are and rightfully so. Libya? No there is no international engagement with ISIS at all in Libya.

If Putin was truly concerned about the best intersts of the Syrian people he would stop supporting Bashar al-Assad and take in Syrian refugees.

You think Canada isn't doing it's part when it comes to refugees? Where is Putin and Russia when it comes to taking them in... they are geographically much closer.

Isn't it passing strange that the refugees themselves want to go to the West and not Russia?

Once again you present no real substantive argument.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Retribution for turfing the cons?
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dai...ity-mailboxes-freeze-up-across-194051872.html
> 
> Like he could not possibly have seen this coming. Or perhaps he honestly believed the lamestream propaganda about Global Warming.


That is the responsibility of Canada Post and they are sleeping on the job.


----------



## FeXL

This pretty much nails it.

Canada, the U.S., and the Donald



> Canada’s most attention-grabbing personality is the new Liberal prime minister Justin Trudeau, whom a swooning electorate has just elevated to the highest office in the land. *Possessing no relevant business or political experience and no demonstrable leadership qualities apart from name recognition and good looks, he is a dandiprat version of the fatuous nonentity America elected to lead them into a condition of weakness and insolvency.* Many in the U.S. are now suffering Obama remorse and reassessing their folly. Eventually Canada, too, may come to its senses, though I wouldn’t bet on it. An Eloi people roistering in a Morlock world does not augur well for their future.


Tell us how you really feel!



> In this respect, Trump is head and shoulders above Trudeau. How can we compare a man born into wealth and privilege, a trust-fund baby merely inheriting his father’s glamour, *whose signal accomplishments involved a stint as a substitute drama teacher and snowboard instructor and two uncompleted university degrees*, with a man who turned his father’s business into one of the world’s great financial empires, generating opportunities for untold others? No contest.


Finally:



> In fact, I find myself edging toward Ted Cruz, whom Rand Paul believes would make an excellent Canadian prime minister.


Hmmm. Cruz for PM...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The jokes are already writing themselves.

Could your past life nix a Senate spot? Liberals appoint hypnotherapist, singer to selection panel



> One of the panelists named by the Liberal government to a board that will select new senators tries to recover the past lives of people she treats using a largely debunked psychological technique.
> 
> Manitoba folk singer and hypnotherapist Heather Bishop is one of nine “eminent Canadians” who will help choose candidates to fill the 22 vacancies in the Senate, Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef announced Tuesday.
> 
> But for a government that prides itself on evidence-based policy, her addition to the Senate advisory board may raise a few brows.


----------



## SINC

What did we elect?

Husband of Canadian victim in Burkina Faso attack says he hung up on Justin Trudeau | National Post


----------



## FeXL

Hung up on the Dauphin? Good for him!!!

I wanna shake this guys hand...


----------



## SINC

The Dauphin who is boasting about this on Twitter, and the rest of the country for that matter, might want to thank Mr. Harper and the Conservative party for this achievement as it was attained under his watch.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-best-countries-sorry-america-youre-number-4/


----------



## Macfury

Justin Kardashian was in Davos telling the world that we have "resorcefulness" not "resources." Glad that's settled. Resourceful businesses ought to put a second person on incoming calls, 'cause the world will be calling with billions of dollars of new orders this week.


----------



## FeXL

So, in the interest of protecting world leaders from slight online, FB has censored a post critical of The Hairdo. Curious, where was this concern when Harper was still PM...

Facebook censors anti-Trudeau postings



> The popular Facebook page – “Justin Trudeau Not” posts daily memes and articles both poking fun and criticizing the Canadian Liberal Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau. On December 11th, one meme was posted highlighting the double standard in Trudeau’s sentiments.
> 
> After there was a pepper spray attack on a group of Syrians in Vancouver, Trudeau openly condemned the attack, lecturing us on what it means to be Canadian.
> 
> However, after another incident, in which two men – both named Mohamed, shot up a nightclub in Calgary, Trudeau was silent. No comment.
> 
> This is what the meme pointed out. *However, the social justice warriors running Facebook decided that this is just too much. That people’s fragile feelings will be shattered upon being exposed to this matter. Therefore, it must be destroyed, because after all – these intellectual Leftists at Silicon Valley are smarter than us, they should decide what content is appropriate for us to consume.* Here’s the message that Facebook sent to the page’s admins the following morning.


M'bold.
One of myriad reasons why I'm not on FB...


----------



## SINC

Trudeau an intellectual lightweight?

Andrew Coyne: Trudeau digs a hole for himself in Davos | National Post


----------



## SINC

Peter Foster: Dumb in Davos


----------



## fjnmusic

So Saskatchewan hasn't got it quite as figured out as they seem to portray: what other province most recently was criticized for not having a budget it place soon enough? http://thestarphoenix.com/storyline...-keep-voters-in-the-dark-about-potential-cuts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

They have figured it out well enough not to attempt a budget with so many unknowns and a delayed federal budget. That is unlike the Notley Crew who plunge ahead with destructive policy after destructive policy while floundering in the dark.


----------



## FeXL

It wasn't the province that was criticized, it was the NDP gov't.

And, after all the delays, witness the stunning incompetence that was revealed...



fjnmusic said:


> ...what other province most recently was criticized for not having a budget it place soon enough?


----------



## SINC

The truth about JT and ISIS.

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/canada-was-snubbed-isis-talks-–-and-we-deserved-it-u-t-professor-says

And further:

John Ivison: NATO allies miffed over Canada’s failure to meet defence spending commitment | National Post


----------



## SINC

This too.

No oil, Quebec? Fine. No equalization payments | Opinion | Edmonton Sun


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> This too.
> 
> 
> 
> No oil, Quebec? Fine. No equalization payments | Opinion | Edmonton Sun



This to my mind is fair. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Good grief.

*Trudeau: “I’ve tremendous confidence in people who don’t think a lot about politics, terrorism”*

http://en.cijnews.com/?p=23343


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Good grief.


Brilliant. Absolutely f'ing brilliant.

No wonder he dropped out of two graduate programs & only had a short stint as a drama teacher...

Can't make it in the real world? Make him head of a country!!!


----------



## SINC

Good god no.

Gary Lamphier: Is Trudeau 2.0 set to unleash NEP 2.0 on Alberta? | Edmonton Journal


----------



## SINC

Oh yeah, then there is this.

Stop Demonizing Fossil Fuel Companies, Warns Global Bank Chief


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Well, wouldn't want to offend the poor darlin's in the Public Service now, would we...

Repealing imposed public service sick-leave deals among Liberals ‘first orders of business’



> The Conservatives drastically changed the ground rules for bargaining in the public service, first with the sweeping reforms of omnibus budget bill C-4 in 2013, followed by more in C-59 last year.
> 
> *C-59 gave the Conservatives the power to override contracts and impose a sick leave deal that eliminated public servants’ sick leave banks, saving $1.5 billion over five years.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Excellent read.

Saudi oil filling a New Brunswick refinery – what kind of a domestic energy policy is that?



> A Calgary based oil trader wishing to remain anonymous recently went on record to say that Irving Oil has “fixed the 299,235t Kamakshi Prem to ship crude on January 21 from Ras Tanura, Saudi Arabia to its 300,000 b/d refinery in St. John, NB in Canada.”
> 
> *Yes you read that right, Canada’s largest refinery, the Irving Oil New Brunswick facility, imports oil from Saudi Arabia.* If you study crude trading markets, that news won’t come as much of as surprise since waterborne crude can originate anywhere, but for most of us, it’s a bit of a disconcerting shock. *Why does Canada import oil at all, and if we must why from Middle Eastern nations like Saudi Arabia?*


M'bold.

Why? Stupid f-ing politicians...

More:



> Regardless of free market oil pricing situations, it is nonsensical for Canada to be importing oil from unstable regions, when proper usage of Canada’s own resources would have multiple benefits to the country. *There is no logical reason not to build the Energy East pipeline, and a lot of reasons in its favour.*
> 
> [PM Hairdo], you want infrastructure projects that will help the nation. Here is one that is half completed, won’t cost you a dime, is as safe as any other Canadian industrial project, and will benefit multiple diverse regions of the country. What more could you ask for? If you won’t help pay for it, then at least help clear the way.


Or just get the hell out of the way...


----------



## fjnmusic

Harper powerless? Not quite yet. 
http://albertapolitics.ca/2016/01/t...-party-party-still-holds-parliament-contempt/


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----------



## Macfury

Good news--thanks!



fjnmusic said:


> Harper powerless? Not quite yet.
> Alberta PoliticsTories' Senate gambit shows Harper still runs the party and the party still holds Parliament in contempt - Alberta Politics


----------



## FeXL

Further to my post from 2 months ago...

Yoga returns to Ottawa U after being banned for 'cultural appropriation', but with white teacher replaced by Indian one



> Now the class is back with an Indian teacher, Priya Shah.


Woohoo!!!

But...



> She said she wonders if she was hired because she's Indian. Shah says she grew up in Calgary and only visited India once. *She was there for five months.*


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hey, that's 5 months more than the white girl. Practically makes her an expert, no?

As to the one who got the shoe?



> She suggested that the left-wing students are to blame for her not being rehired because she called them *social justice warriors*.
> 
> According to The National Post, Scharf wrote about the situation in a blog post.
> 
> _“I heard today that my old yoga class is back on. Maybe since I called my foes ‘SJW’s’ and then refused to speak the word ‘intersectionality’ with people who don’t even have a cursory understanding of the term, the student centre has decided to hire a teacher of South Indian descent.”​_


M'bold.

Nahhhh. Couldn't be...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Good news--thanks!


I find disjointed rants like that, if nothing else, entertaining.

For years the leftist screed was "hidden agendas", blah, blah, blah. Yet, on the eve of him leaving the post, when he could easily have filled every empty senate position with a conservative, he appointed a grand total of...zero.

Helluva agenda...

Plus, "Alberta Politics"? Pulease...


----------



## FeXL

Rex gets it.

Rex Murphy: An environmental review process is an organized procrastination



> *Today we fire up the incense to the god of global warming, point shudderingly at the dancing molecules of CO2 and start the interminable reviews*
> 
> Environmental review processes are meant to cloud the memory, eviscerate patience, stall every decision and make the industry weep. They are the security blanket of every temporizing politician, the activists’ armory, the green warrior’s shield and lance, and the economy’s ultimate wet blanket. They are meant to defer and defeat. In the old days, we had Royal Commissions for this sort of thing — great travelling missions that were long on listening and short on action. We’ve gotten much better at this — more robust, if you like. Today we fire up the incense to the god of global warming, point shudderingly at the dancing molecules of CO2 and start the interminable reviews.
> 
> *We’ve come to a strange point in this country, when industry and employment have to fight so hard to breathe, when instead of saying prayers of gratitude for the immense gift of our natural resources, we apologize for their existence and build a thicket of review and regulation to appease all those who are ideologically and temperamentally opposed to their exploitation. This is called, I believe, sustainability.*


Related:

Oilpatch seethes over new environmental rules for pipelines: ‘Deeply disappointing’



> “I would describe this announcement as not surprising but deeply disappointing, and a discouraging signal to investors at a time when Canada is facing a flat-lined economy,” Explorers and Producers Association of Canada president Gary Leach said in an email.
> 
> It is an extremely intensive, arduous, and expensive process involving a staggering number of man hours, a wide range of expertise and years of consultations.
> 
> “From our perspective, this was more a case of political grandstanding and a not so subtle move to wrestle control of natural resources away from the province,” AltaCorp Capital analyst Dirk Lever said in a strongly worded note to clients on Thursday. *“Where is the next Peter Lougheed?”*


M'bold.

Where, indeed.


----------



## FeXL

Canada’s media: A crisis that cries out for a public inquiry



> *Today, we have a crisis in the journalism industry unprecedented in scope.* A media implosion. Newspapers being reduced to digital editions, large numbers losing their jobs, circulation falling, ad revenues plunging, near monopoly ownership of big-city dailies, the old business model in a state of collapse.


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I have no idea who the hell Mr. Lawrence Martin is but, yeah, Larry, there is a problem. The thing is, where you gotcher head ain't exactly gonna reveal what it is...


----------



## FeXL

Liberals add clause to Bill C-51 asking terrorists not to attack us



> OTTAWA - After promising to “undo” many of the controversial elements in the Conservative anti-terror legislation, the Liberal government has announced that it will actually add a new clause politely requesting that domestic and foreign terrorists not attack Canada or Canadians.
> 
> “Clearly, Canadians were not happy with the bill passed by the previous government and they wanted us to amend the law so that it would keep them safe and protect their rights under the Charter” said Minister of Public Safety Ralph Goodale. “Turns out that is pretty difficult.”
> 
> “But suddenly a lightbulb went off and we realized all we had to do was just ask them not too. Just goes to show you the best ideas are often the simplest,” he added.


Well, that's a relief...


----------



## eMacMan

Some of you may recall one of our true con believers blithely attempting to con us into believing that personal banking data transferred to the CRA via the FATCA-IGA, would be completely secure. Obviously that was con-speak supposedly meaning the info would not be compromised from the CRA database. Once it went from the CRA to the IRS there was no privacy assurance whatsoever. In fact the IRS has said it will share this info with just about any domestic or foreign agency which makes a request.

Still even that very limited assurance now comes across as totally worthless. 
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tax-agency-staffer-gone-taxpayer-153500931.html


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> Canada’s media: A crisis that cries out for a public inquiry
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> I have no idea who the hell Mr. Lawrence Martin is but, yeah, Larry, there is a problem. The thing is, where you gotcher head ain't exactly gonna reveal what it is...


The public inquiry should be directed at those in the media who use it as a bully pulpit.

I've cut my cable and I won't buy another newspaper again.

The media in this country are next to useless. You can learn more on the internet and from forums like this. We no longer need people to digest the news for us and present their slant on it. It's quite easy nowadays to just go direct to the source.


----------



## FeXL

Vandave said:


> The public inquiry should be directed at those in the media who use it as a bully pulpit.


I'm stunned that this is even a question. Are these idiots so wilfully blind or blindingly ignorant that they really don't see the problem?

Amazing...


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> I'm stunned that this is even a question. Are these idiots so wilfully blind or blindingly ignorant that they really don't see the problem?
> 
> Amazing...


A top German anchor just admitted that the government sets the news agenda.

Top German Journalist Admits Live On Air National News Agenda Set By Government - Breitbart

Our media is no different more or less. Each major outlet has a specific agenda and their employees know the game whether it is written down or not. They reward those who stick to the agenda and punish those who don't.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting, and frightening, article.


----------



## CubaMark

*Trudeau to speed $700M in infrastructure funding to struggling Alberta*








Prime Minister Justin Trudeau made a formal commitment to fast-track $700 million in previously committed federal infrastructure money to Alberta after meeting Wednesday with Premier Rachel Notley.

The federal government has been saying it wants to expedite $13.1 billion in existing national infrastructure cash allocated by the previous Conservative government but never spent. Of that sum, $704 million is earmarked for Alberta.

But there had been no formal announcement on the fate of those dollars. That came after the two leaders met at the legislature in Alberta.

“The federal government is committed to fast-track infrastructure investments for Alberta and, indeed, all provinces and territories,” Trudeau said. “This will help promote jobs and growth where they are needed most.”​(National Post)​


----------



## Vandave

I think I read that $35 Billion in capital expenditures have been lost in Alberta. Only $34.3 Billion to go to make that up. I'm sure Quebec will stand up to the plate to get those donations started.

Alberta has given the rest of Canada $147 Billion in equalization payments over the years. Only $146.3 Billion to go Justin.

If I'm from Alberta, I'd say keep the change dummies.


----------



## Macfury

Even if I were only making a token gesture to prop up Notley's failing regime, I'd send Alberta more than that chump change.



Vandave said:


> I think I read that $35 Billion in capital expenditures have been lost in Alberta. Only $34.3 Billion to go to make that up. I'm sure Quebec will stand up to the plate to get those donations started.
> 
> Alberta has given the rest of Canada $147 Billion in equalization payments over the years. Only $146.3 Billion to go Justin.
> 
> If I'm from Alberta, I'd say keep the change dummies.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Even if I were only making a token gesture to prop up Notley's failing regime, I'd send Alberta more than that chump change.



But wouldn't using tax money to prop up industry also be a problem? The bailout system is one of the reasons the USA is in such a bad way today. Layoffs galore, while CEO's still took home record bonuses. How exactly do you propose this federal assistance be allocated? 


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## Macfury

I only said that if I were Trudeau, my phony gesture would be larger. I wouldn't allocate federal infrastructure assistance to the provinces at all--or bail out any company, including GM. It's ludicrous to watch Notley and Wynne both demanding federal infrastructure assistance, and then robbing each other's provinces to pay for it.



fjnmusic said:


> But wouldn't using tax money to prop up industry also be a problem? The bailout system is one of the reasons the USA is in such a bad way today. Layoffs galore, while CEO's still took home record bonuses. How exactly do you propose this federal assistance be allocated?


----------



## FeXL

Vandave said:


> If I'm from Alberta, I'd say keep the change dummies.


BINGO!!!

The Hairdo can keep his chump change: take Rachel.

That'll do more for our economy than any amount of feigned interest...


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> The Hairdo can keep his chump change: take Rachel.
> 
> That'll do more for our economy than any amount of feigned interest...


Alberta would be smart to renegotiate the whole transfer payment scheme at this juncture. Let the Feds keep their $700M, but in the future, transfers out of Alberta would be capped at $700M. 

Rachel won't be creating that kind of a fuss though so it's not going to happen. 

Rather, Alberta is going to lose future credibility and negotiating power by taking the piddly amount of transfer payments they are going to get over the next 3 years. For every $1 dollar given to Quebec, Alberta is going to get about $0.01 back. :lmao:

That's going to cause another 50 years of Alberta bleeding money.

Taking this money is probably the dumbest thing Alberta could do.


----------



## FeXL

Vandave said:


> Taking this money is probably the dumbest thing Alberta could do.


No argument.

I don't want no stinking charity from some progressive hairdo who is more interested in keeping our transfer payments flowing to the east than any genuine interest in the Alberta economy & it's people.

Best thing he can do is approve the Energy East pipeline & otherwise keep his cotton-picking hands off our economy.

That said, I'd take the $100 billion his old man bilked from this province back in the 80's under the NEP.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau hires adviser to help him make better decisions 



> During the October election, Gerald Butts, the Prime Minister’s principal secretary, took a pause in the campaign to tweet a picture of a book on forecasting the future that he was buying at McGill University.
> 
> Mr. Butts has now hired one of the authors of that book to help the Prime Minister’s Office make better decisions.
> 
> “We had good long discussions about my book, about decision making,” said Dan Gardner, a former Ottawa Citizen columnist and, until yesterday, the editor of Policy Options. “I have to say, I’m really impressed with Gerry’s own capacity for self-examination, self-criticism. He’s a very astute and informed thinker.”


More:



> *Mr. Gardner will not be working directly out of Langevin Block, where the rest of the Prime Minister’s Office toils, but he said he expects to be “on call” when they need an external point of view to clear their heads.*


M'bold.

Hey, like Blondie, call me, Dauphin. I'll clear your head for you. I'll give you perspective like you've never had before.

Now, Gardner, Gardner, that sounds so familiar...

Trudeau hires ex-Media Party member inside PMO who equated Harper to Mussolini



> Dan Gardener worked at the Ottawa Citizen as a columnist and viciously attacked conservatives while being employed there.
> 
> Comparing Manning Centre speakers to Aryan Nation members
> 
> ...
> 
> Equating PM Stephen Harper to the murderous dictator Benito Mussolini
> 
> ...
> 
> And then threatening to retaliate against any conservatives who pushed-back at him
> 
> ...
> 
> Equating Harper to a sexual predator


Yup. Helluva advisor, non?


----------



## fjnmusic

Do remember this is relief money for infrastructure projects while the industry is down, not a panacea for all economic problems. It's like a bandaid on a gaping flesh wound. When the industry is firing on all cylinders again, so to speak, it should not need to be back stopped. Transfer payments, however, are another story, and I agree, there should be no transfer payments while the industry is in such a slump. That would send a much stronger message about Alberta being the "engine of the country."


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Do remember this is relief money for infrastructure projects while the industry is down, not a panacea for all economic problems.


However it's billed, I don't support it. All provinces are hurting and the money is coming from them. It's ludicrous to see provinces going to the feds for money that they're picking out of each others' pockets,


----------



## FeXL

Government does not create jobs. Private industry does. All government creates is make work projects on the backs of taxpayers.

Keep government the hell out of business, create an investment friendly environment & let the private sector work its magic.

The more welfare you create, the more dependence there is upon it & the more it costs taxpayers. It's a never-ending downward spiral.



fjnmusic said:


> Do remember this is relief money for infrastructure projects while the industry is down, not a panacea for all economic problems.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Government does not create jobs. Private industry does. All government creates is make work projects on the backs of taxpayers.
> 
> Keep government the hell out of business, create an investment friendly environment & let the private sector work its magic.
> 
> The more welfare you create, the more dependence there is upon it & the more it costs taxpayers. It's a never-ending downward spiral.



Yep. Even "infrastructure stimulus" simply creates a windfall for construction companies in the present--then creates a shortfall of infrastructure spending in the future. There's no magic here.


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> The more welfare you create, the more dependence there is upon it & the more it costs taxpayers. It's a never-ending downward spiral.


I was looking at some of the data on equalization payments and reading up on Quebec's budget. They are still going to get $10 Billion this year. What a joke. 

Consider also the amount of money the Feds spend in Quebec via other means. Yet somehow they can't get their act together and are one of the most indebted governments in the World.

I think by the time Trudeau is four years in, there will be a lot of talk of Western Separation.

Our country is so dysfunctional.


----------



## CubaMark

*Minister eyes guaranteed minimum income to tackle poverty*

The federal minister responsible for reducing poverty says he is interested in the idea of a guaranteed income in Canada.

Veteran economist Jean-Yves Duclos, who is Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, told The Globe and Mail the concept has merit as a policy to consider after the government implements more immediate reforms promised during the election campaign.

“There are many different types of guaranteed minimum income. There are many different versions. I’m personally pleased that people are interested in the idea,” said Mr. Duclos, who has a mandate to come up with a Canadian poverty-reduction strategy.

The federal Liberals have made ambitious promises to tackle poverty and to work with the provinces on improving Canada’s social safety net in areas such as skills training and employment insurance. Any major reforms would require the co-operation of the provinces, given the overlapping responsibilities for dealing with poverty.​
(More at: Globe & Mail)


----------



## Macfury

Would only work if it replaced all existing programs and the inefficient infrastructure that delivers it.



CubaMark said:


> *Minister eyes guaranteed minimum income to tackle poverty*
> 
> The federal minister responsible for reducing poverty says he is interested in the idea of a guaranteed income in Canada.
> 
> Veteran economist Jean-Yves Duclos, who is Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, told The Globe and Mail the concept has merit as a policy to consider after the government implements more immediate reforms promised during the election campaign.
> 
> “There are many different types of guaranteed minimum income. There are many different versions. I’m personally pleased that people are interested in the idea,” said Mr. Duclos, who has a mandate to come up with a Canadian poverty-reduction strategy.
> 
> The federal Liberals have made ambitious promises to tackle poverty and to work with the provinces on improving Canada’s social safety net in areas such as skills training and employment insurance. Any major reforms would require the co-operation of the provinces, given the overlapping responsibilities for dealing with poverty.​
> (More at: Globe & Mail)


----------



## Dr.G.

The Peace Arch at the border between Surrey, British Columbia, and Blaine, Washington will be at the west end of the Canadian/US wall, according to Donald Trump. At the other end, where Maine and NB meet, will be the other end of this wall. Still, at the southern tip of Nova Scotia will be Canada's equivalent of The Statue of Liberty for those Americans wanting to flee the US and come to Canada ............ sort of a modern day "underground railroad".

“Give me your tired, your poor, 
Your huddled masses yearning to be free of The Donald, 
The wretched refuse that he does not like. 
Send these, the Democrats, the moderate Republicans, the Independent thinkers to me: 
I welcome you with open arms beside the golden door that is Canada.”


----------



## Vandave

I don't think his wall idea is really such a bad idea. I think people are stuck on walls as being a negative thing because of WWII and the Berlin Wall. 

One of the most basic and fundamental roles of a government is controlling your borders and who gets in your country. If you have millions of illegal people living and working in your country, then the government has failed one of it's most basic tasks. How can you have an immigration system on one hand where you put honest people through all sorts of headache and then on the other, turn a blind eye to illegals?

A wall would be a very effective way of controlling the border without a lot of manpower. There is nothing that should be offensive about that. I wouldn't disagree that some of his deportation stuff and dividing families is morally wrong, but I do agree that a wall is a good idea.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vandave said:


> I don't think his wall idea is really such a bad idea. I think people are stuck on walls as being a negative thing because of WWII and the Berlin Wall.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most basic and fundamental roles of a government is controlling your borders and who gets in your country. If you have millions of illegal people living and working in your country, then the government has failed one of it's most basic tasks. How can you have an immigration system on one hand where you put honest people through all sorts of headache and then on the other, turn a blind eye to illegals?
> 
> 
> 
> A wall would be a very effective way of controlling the border without a lot of manpower. There is nothing that should be offensive about that. I wouldn't disagree that some of his deportation stuff and dividing families is morally wrong, but I do agree that a wall is a good idea.



Hard to build a wall that goes over mountains. 


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----------



## Vandave

fjnmusic said:


> Hard to build a wall that goes over mountains.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No harder than building a road or railroad through mountains, which is something we figured out only about 200 years ago.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> No harder than building a road or railroad through mountains, which is something we figured out only about 200 years ago.


Someone beat us to it:


----------



## FeXL

Well, well, welll...

When Trudeau met Cruz: How Canada’s PM once debated the Iowa caucus winner



> Trudeau told a group of fellow McGill alumni that he’d dabbled in debating and had once gone up against Cruz in a tournament at Yale, adding dryly: “He hasn’t changed very much.”
> 
> He elaborated slightly in an interview with The Canadian Press last June. By then, Cruz had announced his presidential bid but Trudeau was still in opposition.
> 
> While the details are a bit hazy, Trudeau recalls an opponent who came prepared to dominate — and, apparently, Cruz did.
> 
> “If I recall correctly it was about an obscure monetary policy element that he had done an awful lot of research on,” Trudeau said in that pre-election interview.


And, you gotcher ass handed to you.

There's a surprise...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Justin: Take your $700 million or whatever it is & shove it up your backside. Then, just approve the damn pipeline. Alberta oil will flow & Quebec will get it's transfer payments. Win/win...

Prime Minister Trudeau won’t commit to a Yes for Energy East pipeline even if it gets the green light from the National Energy Board



> I asked the question, a simple question.
> 
> It was an easy one, a puffball of a pitch, a hit it out of the park softie?
> 
> That is, if you really cared about Albertans and the answer was Yes.
> 
> But the answer wasn’t Yes.
> 
> As for caring? You decide.
> 
> Question: If the National Energy Board green-lights the Energy East pipeline, will your cabinet approve it?
> 
> This is the answer.
> 
> “We’re in a situation where we’re not going to predict or shortcut any of the processes going through,” Prime Minister Trudeau tells us.
> 
> “One of the things Canadians understand is we need rigorous processes that actually evaluate and engage with concerned citizens, with scientists, with indigenous groups and that’s exactly what we’re empowering the NEB to do properly ...”


WTF did he just say...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, did you know that Hitler hosted a holocaust for 6 million people & there wasn't a Jew in the lot?

The Broader Framework of Trudeau’s Holocaust Distortion



> The absence of any mention of Jews in Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s statement commemorating International Holocaust Remembrance Day has drawn much criticism. The omission of Jews in any commemorative statement on the Holocaust and its victims, even if unintended, serves as a typical example of a much wider phenomenon — the de-Judaization of the Holocaust.


----------



## FeXL

Carbon Taxes: Real Misery, Imaginary Results



> When Canadian drivers fill up our gas tanks, 35% of the price we now pay is tax. If the average tank holds 64 litres, every time we gas up at $1 a litre, we’re handing over $22 not to the producers and distributors of this product, but to the government (see p. 4 here).
> 
> Since poor people have less money overall, taking $22 from them at the pump is a big deal. Via gasoline taxes, the poor are forced to pay a higher share of their income just to do ordinary things such as get to work, drop their kids at daycare, fetch groceries, and visit ailing relatives. *This is called regressive taxation.*


M'bold.

More:



> Politicians see carbon taxes as a way to earn green halos in the saviour-of-the-planet fantasy films that run inside their own heads. *But people who make themselves look good by increasing the suffering of others aren’t heroes. They’re contemptible narcissists.*


M'bold.

Or, progressives.

But I repeat myself...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau commits to fast-tracking $700M in building money to struggling Alberta



> Trudeau said Wednesday he wants to let the approval process play out through the National Energy Board.
> 
> "We agreed that we must get Alberta's resources to market in responsible, sustainable ways," Trudeau said.
> 
> "This agreement is based on our shared goal of ensuring that there is proper market access for *our energy projects.*"


M'bold.

Whose energy projects? Screw you, Justin...


----------



## FeXL

Perfect...

Prime Minister Pompadour peddles our precious metals.



> Trudeau's Liberals sell 43.3% of Canada's entire official gold reserves. $oros is pleased.


----------



## FeXL

I plunk this down in the Canadian Political thread because it will be very interesting to see how PM Pompadour's handlers deal with this...

Debt, defaults, and devaluations: why this market crash is like nothing we've seen before



> For many market watchers, a confluence of factors - led by oil, but encompassing China, the emerging world, and financial markets - are all brewing to create a perfect storm in a global economy that has barely come to terms with the Great Recession.
> 
> “We are in a very unusual situation where market sentiment is of a different nature to anything we’ve seen before,” says Thygesen.
> 
> Unlike previous pre-recessionary eras, the current sell-off has seen commodity prices, equities and credit conditions all move in dangerous lockstep.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Perfect...
> 
> Prime Minister Pompadour peddles our precious metals.


Perfect timing at the bottom of the gold market too.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Perfect timing at the bottom of the gold market too.


Yep.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, at a time when air strikes are proven to be effective on at least a couple of fronts, what's The Hairdo planning on doing? Yep. Pulling back our air support...

Air strikes help force ISIS to halve fighters' pay: Glaser



> U.S.-led air strikes have had a substantial impact on the money Islamic State (IS) makes from oil, and have helped force the militant group to cut its fighters' pay by up to 50 percent, a senior U.S official said on Monday.
> 
> Daniel Glaser, assistant secretary for terrorist financing at the U.S. Treasury Department, said the strikes had hit the group's ability to extract, refine and transport oil from territory it controlled in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> "When you look at difficulties that we know that they are having with respect to the transport, with respect to the extraction, I think it's fair to say they are no longer able to make money the way they used to be able to," Glaser told a London conference.
> 
> The strikes had also targeted cash storage sites which had "literally incinerated millions of dollars".
> 
> "(IS) has cut salaries to its fighters in (its de facto capital) Raqqa by up to 50 percent," Glaser added.


----------



## SINC

Ah yeah, this is exactly what we need in Canada. Thanks Justin for the beginning of the end for a once great country.



> *Canada to abolish language requirement for immigration*
> 
> John McCallum, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, told The Hill Times that in the next few week the government will introduce “radical changes” to the Citizenship Act.
> 
> Liberal MPs said to The Hill Times that the language requirement for new immigrants to apply for Canadian citizenship will be probably eliminated as it “disenfranchises” new immigrants from their right to take part in the political process.
> 
> Up until now candidates for immigration under Federal Skilled Worker Program are required to prove in a language test approved by Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) the ability in English or French in the following four areas: listening, speaking, reading and writing.
> They have also to meet the minimum level of Canadian Language Benchmark (CLB) 7 in English or Niveaux de compétence linguistique canadiens (NCLC) 7 in French for their first official language in all four language abilities.
> 
> Candidates for immigration under the Federal Skilled Trades Program must must meet the minimum level of CLB 5 (English) or NCLC 5 (French) for speaking and listening, and CLB 4 (English) or NCLC 4 (French) for reading and writing.
> 
> According to Andrew Griffith‘s research quoted by The Hill Times, there are 33 federal ridings in Canada with a visible minority population of 50 per cent and more, 23 are in Ontario, eight in British Columbia, one in Quebec, and one in Alberta.
> 
> *Multiculturalism from a Canadian Islamic perspective*
> 
> Shaykh Said Rageah (الشيخ سعيد راجح), a leading spiritual leader of the Canadian Muslim community, dealt with the issue of multiculturalism in Canada in a sermon he delivered at Abu Hurairah Mosque in Toronto.
> 
> Imam Rageah called on Canadian Muslims to unite and translate their demography into a political and economic power that is necessary to make the government allow Muslims to implement the Islamic Law (Sharia) in their communities and to change the foreign policy.
> 
> Rageah spoke in favour of following the example of the Sikh neighbourhood in Edmonton, Alberta, by bringing the Muslim community to live together in one area in which the authorities will not be able to make any decision without the approval of the Muslims.
> 
> He urges Muslims to hire only Muslim workers, to buy products or services only from Muslim-owned businesses and to avoid advertising with media outlets owned by *****, meaning unbeliever or infidel. In this way, he maintained, Canadian Muslims can strengthen themselves and live according to Islam.
> 
> The following is a transcript of segments from Rageah’s sermon:
> 
> “With four, five [hundred] thousand Muslims you can create the most powerful lobby in Canada… with that number of Muslims you can create one of the strongest Muslim business in Toronto…
> 
> “If you just put our resources, if we put our resources together, if we can work together as an Ummah [Muslim nation] we can change a lot…
> 
> “As Muslims, we are scattered all over the city. You have people living in Brampton, you have people living in Mississauga, you have people living in Whitby, you have people living in Richmond Hill. Imagine if we all get together in one area.
> 
> “In the City of Edmonton, the Sikh, Sikh, they live in one neighbourhood and nothing can be changed or done without their approval. We here we may as well benefit from the system that they have here.
> 
> “What can you do with unity? A lot. You can change a lot. You can change the foreign policy of this country. You can change how the Muslims think. You can even when need help, when you need help you call Muslim for your need you will help the Muslim community…
> 
> “Brothers in the masjid [Mosque] right now, they are coming up with the magazine or newspaper called Ummah Times. What Ummah Times is that? Ummah Times is advertising all your businesses all the Muslim businesses [are] Ummah.
> 
> “All you need to do – I will never advertise with a ***** [unbeliever, infidel], there you go.
> “I hear some advertisements giving to 680 News $5,000. Before your Muslim brothers $50 and $80 or $100 we think twice before we do it.
> 
> “Unless we work together, the day we need a truck driver we know where to find truck drivers.
> 
> “The day that I need a cab I should have a number of a Muslim cab it’s ok, pick me up.
> “When I wan to see a doctor, only Muslim doctor.
> 
> “When I want to hire someone only Muslim worker.
> 
> “Then we can strengthen ourselves. This is the way and this is the only way we can exist in the society, living according to Islam.
> 
> “When the Sharia [Islamic Law], when the government of Toronto, Ontario gave us a break and said: deal your internal affairs based on your Sharia [Islamic Law] we did not go and say: Those few people are Ismailis and Ahmadis, they are not even Muslims. Why would they speak on behalf of Muslims. But, we say no, we keep quiet and see and watch what happens, and then the result was that they said… we will never allow you to rule yourselves, your internal affairs based on the Shariah…
> 
> “My brothers in faith [اخوتي في الله], anything that happens in your Muslim community, in the City of Toronto, anything that can be done, five hundred thousand Muslims that is a great number, large number, you can do a lot, work together. Let’s be an Ummah [nation]…
> “Take your children to Islamic schools.
> 
> “Take your vehicle to Muslim owned business.
> 
> “If you buy a vehicle make sure there is a Muslim business or car dealer that sells cars.
> 
> “If you want to do anything just ask if that individual is a Muslim or not. If he is not, then look for a Muslim, because I’m sure you’ll find a Muslim. I’m sure you’ll find a Muslim in that field…
> 
> “O Allah, Raise the standing of Islam and the Muslims [اللهم اعز الاسلام والمسلمين], and humiliate the infidels and the polytheists.” [اذل الكفرة والمشركين]


Canada to abolish language requirement for immigration – CIJNews English


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Ah yeah, this is exactly what we need in Canada. Thanks Justin for the beginning of the end for a once great country.


Ran across that earlier at SDA. Kate noted:



> The language test will be replaced with a simple questionnaire in which the applicant must show they can identify the word "liberal" on a ballot.


Yep...


----------



## SINC

And further, a hairdo idiot at work:

Robyn Urback: If our mission against ISIL was ‘vague’ before, now it’s entirely incoherent | National Post


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Ah yeah, this is exactly what we need in Canada. Thanks Justin for the beginning of the end for a once great country.


Oh Jeebus. Hyperbole much?

From the original Hill Times article that the article selective quotes:

Liberal MPs said they want to *return to the citizenship application process that was in place before the Stephen Harper (Calgary Heritage, Alta.) Conservatives came to power in 2006. At that time, the language test was not required.* New immigrants applying for citizenship between the ages of 18-54 had to write a multiple choice knowledge test about Canada, in English or French, and no language test was required. New immigrants over the age of 54 did not have to write any test.

For those required to write the test about Canada, the Citizenship Department would provide them with a booklet called A Look at Canada. It contained information about such things as the symbols of Canada, aboriginal peoples, geographical regions of the country, the system of government, federal elections, the lawmaking process, and citizenship rights and responsibilities.

When the Conservatives came to power, they undertook a variety of measures to reform the immigration and citizenship system. As part of the new process, the government steadily tightened up the citizenship law and in 2014, added the language test as a prerequisite to apply for citizenship, under the wide-ranging and controversial Bill C-24, the Strengthening of Canadian Citizenship Act, which also allowed the government to revoke citizenship from dual citizens convicted of crimes related to terrorism.

Under the new law, applicants between the ages of 14 and 64, now have to demonstrate an adequate knowledge of English or French either by taking a third-party test, or by providing evidence of language training by government funded language-training programs. *The government, currently, provides free language training programs for new immigrants*. Also, the new immigrants have to write a multiple choice knowledge test about Canada and answer questions chosen from the booklet prepared by the department. The Conservatives also revised the booklet, now entitled Discover Canada: The Rights and Responsibilities of Citizenship.​
Immigrants to Canada are provided training in English or French and as a matter of necessity, immigrants will and do learn one of the official languages in order to participate more completely in Canadian society.

To paraphrase the Bard, this is_ much ado about nothing_ - as is to be expected from the usual right-wingers in here.


----------



## FeXL

Horse feathers & bullpucky.

The _refugees_ will withdraw into their own little circles of familiarity, ignore integration & have no need for English nor French...

McCallum promises ‘radical changes’ to Citizenship Act



> “I know many people who came in the ‘60s or late-’50s, *they don’t speak the language, even now*...” said Liberal MP Gary Anandasangaree (Scarborough-Rouge Park, Ont.) whose riding has a 70.2 per cent visible minority population.


M'bold.

Contrary to the typical ignorance on display from the usual progressives here...



CubaMark said:


> Immigrants to Canada are provided training in English or French and as a matter of necessity, immigrants will and do learn one of the official languages in order to participate more completely in Canadian society.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, there are two types of ignorance in this world, the ignorance of not knowing and willfull ignorance, which is the non listening variety. I have never criticized a government this early in its mandate before...this is both Provincial and Federal, but my own politics aside I am of the belief that our Federal government is, and early on at that, one of the most willfully ignorant governments I have ever come across......and this includes The "W"'s first term down south.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, there are two types of ignorance in this world, the ignorance of not knowing and willfull ignorance, which is the non listening variety. I have never criticized a government this early in its mandate before...this is both Provincial and Federal, but my own politics aside I am of the belief that our Federal government is, and early on at that, one of the most willfully ignorant governments I have ever come across......and this includes The "W"'s first term down south.


Can't argue with that Rp.


----------



## SINC

Selling off our security?

Canada sells nearly half of all its gold reserves - National | Globalnews.ca

But then again:

China Continues To Buy More Gold As it Sells Other Foreign Reserves


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

As oilsands punished, tanker loads of cheap Saudi oil sail into Canadian ports daily



> As federal and provincial politicians pat themselves on the back for their climate change ‘leadership,’ and pipeline opponents gloat about stalling construction of new Canadian pipelines, tanker-loads of foreign oil are delivered regularly to Eastern Canadian refineries, including increasing volumes from Saudi Arabia.
> 
> That’s right. *Saudia Arabia, the oil-rich kingdom that is waging a brutal price war to shore up its market share and devastating Canada’s oil and gas sector in the process, dumped an average of 84,017 barrels a day of its cheap oil in New Brunswick’s Irving Oil Ltd. refinery in 2015*, according to data compiled by the National Energy Board (NEB). That’s up from 63,046 b/d on average in 2012.
> 
> *Overall, refiners in Quebec, Ontario, Newfoundland and New Brunswick imported about 650,000 barrels a day from foreign producers in 2015.* In addition to Saudi Arabia, the oil came from the United States, Algeria, Angola, Nigeria, *because there is insufficient pipeline capacity to import it from Western Canada*, which produces far more oil than it needs.


M'bold.

Related:

Rex Murphy: Will it be Paris or Calgary, Mr. Trudeau?



> What will it be, Paris or Calgary? That is the question.
> 
> Are the commitments made so energetically and with such a show of elan in Paris superior to the need to give support and relief to the oil industry in Calgary? Indeed, the commitments made in Paris run counter to the needs of Calgary (let Calgary here stand for all Alberta). One cannot make huge pledges to reduce carbon emissions one week and wax all enthusiastic about giving federal support to pipelines intended to carry Alberta oil the next. The two agendas are simply not compatible.
> 
> Thus, the debate over pipelines is not about the pipelines themselves, as there is really only one question that a debate over pipelines has to answer: will they be safe? With the technologies and expertise already available, that’s a question accessible to an “evidence-based” inquiry. It is not one that takes years or introduces novel concepts like “social license,” or requires the stamp of approval from herds of mayors.
> 
> If pipelines are not safe, they should not be built. If, however, they are safe, and can be proven to be so within the limits of human scientific competence, then all other questions disappear. Safety is the social license. It is the political license. It is the economic license. Thus, there is no call for any other direction of inquiry once that fundamental question has been answered.


Once again, thank you, Rex. And, screw you, Prime Minister Pompadour...


----------



## ehMax

SINC said:


> Selling off our security?
> 
> Canada sells nearly half of all its gold reserves - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> But then again:
> 
> China Continues To Buy More Gold As it Sells Other Foreign Reserves


Canada just sold 1.5 tons. We used to have about 1000 tons. Guess which government sold most of Canada's gold reserves? The original decision to offload the gold was made in the 1980’s by Brian Mulroney. We sold the bulk of it then, albeit it was sold in a bull market. 1.5 tons is really nothing compared to what was sold back then so to point out we've sold "half our gold" is not really accurate. 

We are studying this is my economics class right now.


----------



## Macfury

Good point EhMax. The better question is why the gold is being sold in each case. 



ehMax said:


> Canada just sold 1.5 tons. We used to have about 1000 tons. Guess which government sold most of Canada's gold reserves? The original decision to offload the gold was made in the 1980’s by Brian Mulroney. We sold the bulk of it then, albeit it was sold in a bull market. 1.5 tons is really nothing compared to what was sold back then so to point out we've sold "half our gold" is not really accurate.
> 
> We are studying this is my economics class right now.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada's Liberal ISIS Strategy Revealed: Politics Trumps Pragmatism



> "Change" was also the message on several international matters with promises to increase the numbers on Syrian refugee resettlement from 10,000 to 25,000 by the end of 2015 and a promise to end Canada's combat mission in Iraq.
> 
> The commitment to increase the number of Syrians resettled in Canada was a blatant case of political one-upmanship on Trudeau's political rivals and, as subsequent events would show, it was made without considering the operational realities of what was necessary and if it was even possible. *This has been made clear since the election, as the supposed deadline of 10,000 persons resettled by the end of December was missed, the costs of the initiative rose from $250 million to $1 billion and the new arrivals are stuck in hotels as the community readiness and support is not what was assumed.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

I don't know if this is true or not. If it is, I want to shake his hand. If not, it should be...

How One Canadian City Dealt With Muslim Immigrants! 



> Muslim parents demanded the abolition of pork in all the school canteens of a Montreal suburb.
> 
> The mayor of the Montreal suburb of Dorval has refused, and the town clerk sent a note to all parents to explain why.
> 
> "Muslims must understand that they have to adapt to Canada and Quebec, its customs, its traditions, and its way of life, because that's where they
> chose to immigrate.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I don't know if this is true or not. If it is, I want to shake his hand. If not, it should be...


You have a pathological need to spread falsehoods, don't you? Is it with all things, or do you just do it to further your [*EDIT:* _remove "race-hating" substitute "Xenophobic" so that FeXL doesn't have yet another goddamn reason to distract us_] agenda?

Let me google that for you

Hoax-Slayer: Montreal Mayor, Muslims, Pork.


----------



## FeXL

You're the one with the reality problem here. Read my opening sentence. Tell you what, just so you don't have to go looking, here it is:



FeXL said:


> I don't know if this is true or not.


I didn't say, "This is true," or "This is fact" or anything along those lines. I said, "I don't know."

The only thing pathological on these boards is your need to put words in other people's mouths in the pursuit of your narrative. You've attempted several times with me to no avail & you wonder why it feels like you're banging your head against the wall? It's because I don't post the $h!t you say I do in the first place.

You must have been a helluva journalist...



CubaMark said:


> You have a pathological need to spread falsehoods, don't you?


First off (and for the forty-eleventh time), Muslim isn't a race. You'd think that a guy with a PhD, after having been told this numerous times, would clue in. You'd think that a guy with a PhD wouldn't even need to be told that. Then again, you'd think that a guy with a PhD would have a better grasp on how to debate, wouldn't you? No point letting facts get in the way of a good rant now, is there? Aw, well, hope springs eternal, PhD Guy.

Secondly, I don't hate any race. Period. If you believe otherwise, I'd be more than happy to wait while you go find some empirical evidence in the form of a quote from any of my posts that illustrates otherwise. Clock's running...

Third, for that matter, I hate very few things. It takes far too much energy to hate something and, frankly, I'm too lazy & I got too many other positive things going on in my life. Annihilating your arguments on a public board is one of them...

Fourth, agendas. Well, we've all got our own axe to grind, don't we? As far as this topic is concerned, I'm of the opinion that if a country welcomes you with open arms, the last thing you do is kick them in the nuts for their hospitality. I open-heartedly agree with every (apparently false) statement in that article: Integrate or stay the hell home. You want to bring your language, your customs, your belief system, your dress, your whatever, to your new home in Canada, fine. Abide by the laws of this country, work hard to become a productive citizen, learn one of our official languages, don't shove your (oppressive) culture down my throat & we'll get along just fine. Otherwise, there's a slew of Muslim countries worldwide who would just love to have you.

What part of point 4 sounds unreasonable?



CubaMark said:


> Is it with all things, or do you just do it to further your race-hating agenda?


----------



## fjnmusic

Racism. Xenophobia. Choose your term. Pretty much the same thing. Haters gonna hate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I didn't say, "This is true," or "This is fact" or anything along those lines. I said, "I don't know."


*Then why the **** did you post something that you didn't know was true?* Because the mere expression of a _hypothetical_, or a _possible_, or an _I-heard-from-my-brother-in-law's-mechanic's-girlfriends'-bikini-wax-technician_, is sufficient to plant a prejudice in the minds of some folks. Innuendo travels a helluvalot farther than truth, and once entrenched in the mind, facts tend to do little to change one's opinion. 

It's the strategy of every race-baiter, every bigot, everyone who has an agenda to push. And that's YOU, buddy.

My previous post has been amended to shut you the hell up.


----------



## FeXL

You do it all the time...



CubaMark said:


> *Then why the **** did you post something that you didn't know was true?*


----------



## fjnmusic

CubaMark said:


> *Then why the **** did you post something that you didn't know was true?* Because the mere expression of a _hypothetical_, or a _possible_, or an _I-heard-from-my-brother-in-law's-mechanic's-girlfriends'-bikini-wax-technician_, is sufficient to plant a prejudice in the minds of some folks. Innuendo travels a helluvalot farther than truth, and once entrenched in the mind, facts tend to do little to change one's opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the strategy of every race-baiter, every bigot, everyone who has an agenda to push. And that's YOU, buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> My previous post has been amended to shut you the hell up.



I hear that every hardcore right winger is really a closet pedophile and Rick Astley fan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

fjnmusic said:


> I hear that every hardcore right winger is really a closet pedophile and Rick Astley fan.


You know, I think you're right!


----------



## ehMax

Read quite a few pages back in this thread. While there are some interesting points of view made, there are many more not-so-good arguments posted. 

I'll back up with a bit of an update; I've been back at school for a little while working towards a Business diploma with a major in Marketing (Perhaps going on to earn my degree). The program has a lot of good courses in it, with subjects like Supply Chain and Operations, Business Math, Marketing, Market Research, Financial Accounting, Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Marketing Communications, Advanced Reading and Writing and several others coming up in future semesters. Not to toot my own horn, but proud of my hard work that has helped me achieve a perfect 4.0 GPA so far. (I emphasize, not because I'm so smart, but because I worked my butt off studying). 

The Advanced Reading and Writing course was really good, with lots of interesting things taught and discussed. One of them, was about persuasive writing, which entailed learning about logical arguments vs logical fallacies. This really intrigued me, as one of the fallacies was something that I always tried to make sure was not present on ehMac. The logical fallacy I'm referring to is _Ad Hominem_ attacks. Turns out, not only is it something that makes ones argument simply "not nice", but it also is a strong sign that the logic behind the argument is simply not true, especially when an argument is solely based on a logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are pseudo-arguments that people use to try to get others to respond in a certain way that don't hold up to testing. There are other logical fallacies that are used as well, which many people have heard of, but it was interesting to see them in a complete list. These are all methods of arguing that simply do not hold up to testing, and are usually made when the person making the argument does not have any verifiable facts or evidence:

*1. The slippery slope.* This is an appeal to the fear of extremism. If we allow something A to happen, then surely something else, B to Z, will also occur. This is pretty much the entire Trump argument. 

*2. The straw man.* The straw man fallacy is at play when the author completely misrepresents and argument, sometimes even making up information, or “hallowed out” an argument. Example, “Of course John hates multinational food corporations; he believes we should have a small grocery store on every block and pay $100 for a loaf of bread.

*3 Either/or (black or white.* This argument over simplifies things, suggesting there is no middle ground between two extremes. For example, “You either love television or you hate it.

*4. Red herring. *This is when the introduction is a diversionary claim or question, that appears linked to the topic or argument at hand, but in reality isn’t.

*5. Ad hominem.* This is an attack on the character of the speaker or writer instead of on the claims made.

*6. Circular argument.* Instead of offering proof, the initial idea is simply restated. For example, “That show is so awesome because it is so cool and great."

*7. Appeal to emotion.* Using people’s feelings instead of a logical argument. “Everyone will freak out and hate you if you don’t accept the fact that…" 

It's real interesting to read arguments using the above as a sort of filter. What I have observed, is that most people who argue from a right-wing political standpoint will constantly use the above logical fallacies. It's just an observation, but you can read it in this thread, listen to Republican debaters and just see it all over social-media lately. 

That's not to say that people who argue from a left-wing point of view do not use logical fallacies as well. It's just my observation that it's more prevalent than arguments from a right-wing point of view. 

The other thing I learned from professors in the course and in the textbooks was that one of the keys to critical thinking, researching, and writing reports is that you must always consider the source of information. If doing professional research for anything, weather it's science, marketing, or medical related etc... one doing research for the purposes of creating accurate reports, must source information from reliable sources. In Canada, there have been studies about our major newspapers. The results found that while there is some minor political slants to papers, overall, Canadian Newspapers do not present that much bias. (National Post, Globe & Mail etc..) Lots of other information, comes from scholarly, peer-reviewed articles. These articles are not included in scholarly databases, unless they are peer-reviewed. These are articles that don't contain logical fallacies, but rely on studies, tests and statistical analysis. It's not just about political matters, but things like marketing, medicine, sports, and many other topics. 

Again, what I have observed is that people with a right-wing argument very often will site their facts from sources that would be considered unreliable. 

It amazes me how many people with right-wing views source their information from "conspiracy" websites that can easily be shown to be inaccurate by simply pointing out their many historical predictions that proved to be inaccurate. 

Again, just my observations. If you don't agree with me, I'll happily consider your point of view, except those contain logical fallacies, or links to unreliable sources. 

I love hearing good arguments, and many that have challenged me have changed my point of view. I would share and accept right-wing viewpoints that were well-made that showed information from reliable sources that weren't based on logical fallacies. 

It's another reason why I love Economics, which is the study of people's choices. Economics does not have a political viewpoint, it's not the study of money, it's just the study of data of why people make choices and what happens when they make those choices. Surprisingly, a lot of the data correlates making economic decisions that would be viewed as left-wing viewpoints. Countries who make decisions that may seem like left-wing viewpoints are not making left or right wing decisions, they are making decisions based on data that shows their actions will be the best probable correct decisions. Its decisions based on quantifiable data. 

With the health and well-being of a country, sometimes it is more beneficial to have government intervention as opposed to a completely free-market. Right wing proponents, especially in the US, will often very falsely quick make the jump to words like "Socialism" or "Communism". The truth of the matter is every country, including the US, after different mixes of a free-market and socialism. The most all heavily lean free-market, but have some aspects of socialism. A country would be in chaos without socialism. Without it, the free-market would have things like human organ trading. 

It can very easily be shown with data, that governments can administer and deliver some programs more efficiently and with better quality than free-market can. Or in some cases, the positive outcome to society would simply not happen at all. 

Again, all these claims can be argued for without logical fallacies. That's usually where the conspiracy theorists jump in, and start making claims of mass organized, world-changing conspiracies, that every major news-outlet, politician, scientist, university, professors... everything is in on it and they just have the inside-scoop based on a website that is heavily monetized by selling little bottles of liquid that "boost your testosterone", which you'll need for the coming battles.


----------



## Macfury

ehMax said:


> That's not to say that people who argue from a left-wing point of view do not use logical fallacies as well. It's just my observation that it's more prevalent than arguments from a right-wing point of view.


That's observer bias creeping in.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> That's observer bias creeping in.


I've seen plenty of what Ehmax describes above coming from the left. Theres no higher ground on that side of the fence.


----------



## fjnmusic

Amen, Mr. Mayor. . Ad hominem seems to rule the roost around here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ehMax

Macfury said:


> That's observer bias creeping in.


Perhaps, but not necessarily. In economics, it would be considered what's called a _positive statement_. I stated "it's more prevalent [in] arguments from a right-wing point of view." That would indicate it's greater than 50%. It's a statement that could be measured and verified (or disproved). For example, I could go through all the statements in this thread and count the amount of logical fallacy statement used for right-wing arguments vs left-wing arguments. It's just my observation that logical fallacies are used more for right-wing arguments vs left-wing arguments. But yes, it could be biased. It is however, an argument made without logical fallacies. 

For the most part, I just wanted to post the information so that people are cognizant of the types of arguments that can be used, that are not really logical arguments. 

I'm pretty dismayed lately at the level of discourse in arguments made in society today. I used to think it was more common south of the border, but I see it more and more on social media and in the media in Canada as well. I'd like to think us Canadians are more capable of having ciivl debate on important issues.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Amen, Mr. Mayor. . Ad hominem seems to rule the roost around here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree, Mr. Mayor, with fjn's perspective. Basically, this is why I stay clear of attack threads and just post my thoughts and then move on. Paix, mon ami.

Good luck with your degree program in business.


----------



## ehMax

MacGuiver said:


> I've seen plenty of what Ehmax describes above coming from the left. Theres no higher ground on that side of the fence.


Perhaps, but any arguments using logical fallacies are not good arguments.


----------



## fjnmusic

ehMax said:


> Perhaps, but any arguments using logical fallacies are not good arguments.



It's like the old "post hoc ergo propter hoc" argument (after this; therefore because of this). For example, the NDP are elected and the price of oil drops to prices that crippled the industry and destroy the economy. Therefore, the NDP must be destroying the economy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> It's like the old "post hoc ergo propter hoc" argument (after this; therefore because of this). For example, the NDP are elected and the price of oil drops to prices that crippled the industry and destroy the economy. Therefore, the NDP must be destroying the economy.


This statement is a glaring example of the left using inane accusations to try and further their cause.

The truth is, and I have stated it here many times, is that no one believes the NDP had anything to do with falling oil prices. To do so is more than 'out of touch'.

The real point I have made time and again is that the NDP is engineering social policies that worsen the already dire situation due to those low oil prices with flawed policy and inexperience in the case of Alberta.

In other words, the Dippers are abetting the economic downfall in this province, caused by the falling price of oil.


----------



## FeXL

Cite one, a single, lonely example of anybody on these boards anywhere who has posted anything that even remotely resembles that.

Just one...



fjnmusic said:


> For example, the NDP are elected and the price of oil drops to prices that crippled the industry and destroy the economy. Therefore, the NDP must be destroying the economy.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Not news to anyone who was paying attention months ago.

Trudeau’s budget promises were ‘far-fetched’: economists



> Experts say it’s not surprising that the Liberal government will blow through its initial projected deficit of $10 billion this coming year, and even less surprising that it won’t find its way back to balanced books by 2019.


More:



> Trudeau recently backed away from campaign vows to balance the public books before the end of his government’s four-year mandate and cap the deficit at $10 billion in the upcoming budget in a sit-down interview with Montreal’s La Presse newspaper. *The pledges had been central to the Liberal election platform.*


M'bold.

Sunny ways, my friends...


----------



## Macfury

Anther "straw man" argument from the left.



FeXL said:


> Cite one, a single, lonely example of anybody on these boards anywhere who has posted anything that even remotely resembles that.
> 
> Just one...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Anther "straw man" argument from the left.


I don't know a single person, either here on these boards or in real life, who has claimed that. Not a one.

I wait with bated breath for his fulsome list of offenders...


----------



## FeXL

No argument...



fjnmusic said:


> Amen, Mr. Mayor. . Ad hominem seems to rule the roost around here.





fjnmusic said:


> I hear that every hardcore right winger is really a closet pedophile and Rick Astley fan.


----------



## FeXL

So, apparently MotherCorpse held some sort of special interview session last week with 10 participants, "Chat with PM Pompadour" or some such.

10 Hitches With CBC’s 10 Canadians ‘Face-to-Face’ With PM



> Before unmasking last week’s riddled-with-loopholes CBC special, “Face to Face with the Prime Minister”, I’d like to commend the 10 participants of the show for having the courage to go on national television to share their hardships with millions of Canadians, and for also earnestly trying their best to hold our new PM to account–despite the cards being stacked against them and there being little of a track record to review. The participants are all far more lionhearted than myself and many of our compatriots. Bravo to these 10 Canadians for seizing the opportunity to stand up for what is dear to their hearts. So please do not misconstrue the below in any way as an attack on these wonderful Canadian citizens.
> 
> That being said, the way the CBC and Justin Trudeau and co. set up this supposedly avant-garde interviewing process–according to Peter Mansbridge, “like nothing you’ve ever seen”–they should be ashamed of themselves. *This ****-poor yellow journalism reeks on so many levels.* So without further ado, allow me to turn this gimmicky production inside out with a gimmicky top ten listicle of its abominations.


M'bold.

Looking forward to second instalment with points 9 & 10.


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Cite one, a single, lonely example of anybody on these boards anywhere who has posted anything that even remotely resembles that.
> 
> 
> 
> Just one...



Cool your jets, amigo. It's an example of a logical fallacy. I didn't say anyone here espouses that particular philosophy, if you reread it, but I have certainly seen it from the "low information" folks like George Clark followers I see on Facebook and in some of the letters to newspapers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Answered in the third sentence of the post. You really have a reading comprehension problem, don't you?

I noted that I agreed with the sentiment, whether that particular individual said it or not.



CubaMark said:


> *Then why the **** did you post something that you didn't know was true?*


Really? Kewl. So, that means you use the same strategy in your agenda pushing, as well.



CubaMark said:


> It's the strategy of every...everyone who has an agenda to push. And that's YOU, buddy.


Well, as with most of your feeble efforts on these boards, that didn't work well, either. See the next post.



CubaMark said:


> My previous post has been amended to shut you the hell up.


----------



## fjnmusic

You know, I think the point the Mayor of ehMac was trying to make, and likely his reason for setting up this whole forum in the first place, is that it's possible to have a dialogue between two individuals who disagree with resorting to such acerbic rhetoric and outright nastiness. Other boards can do it, and usually a moderator steps in when it gets nasty or personal. Since there are no moderators active here anymore, we really need to display more maturity than we have been doing. It's kind of embarrassing really.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Now that the PhD has been educated on Islam not being a race, let's move on to his next choice of words: xenophobia.

Definition time! OK, there are a number of minor variations in the definition of xenophobia online but the one that I use in my own vocabulary is very similar to thus, from the Free Dictionary:



> an *unreasonable* fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers, or of that which is foreign or strange.


M'bold. More on that later.

I'm going to mention a few persons from my present & past to begin to dispel the accusation against me that I am xenophobic.

My first room mate in university was born in Hong Kong. We lived together for first year. I attended his wedding here. His Hong Kong born sister signed us up for our first mortgage. One of my best friend's in university was of Indian descent, born in Canada. Another good friend from university was born in Ethiopia. There was this Native gentleman who lived in my section in residence, we sat down often in the evenings & just talked. I took a course in Native American Art from a Native professor in university. My sensei is of Cantonese descent, Canadian born. We frequently visit friends, senseis & colleagues of his, both Chinese & Japanese, in Calgary & Lethbridge. My shihan was Japanese, born in Hiroshima. I've trained with classmates born in Japan, China, Poland, & Spain, that I know of. I have a number of colleagues, friends & acquaintances in the US. I used to work for a local business that was owned by Mennonites. One of them lives down the street from me. I've photographed their family many times. During that period of employment I met a number of Hutterites, some of which I still say hello to if I see them on the street. Also while there, I purchased a lot of equipment from overseas, much from Holland. Still maintain contact with two of them to this day.

This is just a _short_ list of people that I've voluntarily interacted with in my life who are either not Canadian born, not occidental, not white or have a completely different belief system than I do. Safe to say they easily qualify as "foreigners or strangers".

Obviously, not xenophobic.

OK, so you're selectively xenophobic, you say. You have an irrational or unreasonable fear of Muslims.

Let's address that. Most of the posts I have made the the Refugee Thread & the ISIS Thread have talked about murder, rape, beatings, sexual abuse, _et al._

I have a lovely bride, I have female children, a mom, aunts, I have female siblings, I have nieces, female cousins. I have many friends, most of which have wives, female children, moms, female siblings, nieces. I also know a number of rape survivors. If it's one thing I've learned from them you never fully recover from a sexual abuse or rape. Period. It haunts you for the rest of your life.

So, here we are, with thousands of documented cases of rape, sexual abuse & killings by refugees, largely of Muslim origin, pouring in from Europe, with a whole 44 of them being questionable (according to your wonderful little link) and you wonder why I'm concerned about proper screening of our own Muslim refugees?

Let's go back to that bolded word above: unreasonable. Or irrational.

The concern I hold for the females not only in my personal life but every other female in this country is not unreasonable, nor irrational. What's happening in Europe & elsewhere will happen here. That is not an unreasonable opinion, nor an irrational one. It's a fact. It's only a matter of time. 

And, I'll be accepting your apology on these boards when it happens.

Do I have a fear of Canadian women getting raped and/or killed? Big Time. Xenophobe? Ha!


----------



## SINC

Nice. Real nice.

Canada Aid Could End Up Helping ISIS Fighters, Acknowledges Minister


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So much for free votes...

Liberals to whip the vote in favour of assisted-dying law



> Liberal MPs will be forced to vote the party line on a subject that is traditionally considered a conscience issue, as parliamentarians from all parties wrestle with how to design and implement a new assisted-dying law.


----------



## FeXL

Dunno who is worse: Knothead or Wynne. MF?

Terence Corcoran: Another Ontario green energy blow-up



> Debris from the exploding Ontario Liberal green energy rocket continues to land on the hapless citizens of the province. Gas plant scandals, soaring power rates, declining electricity output, massive subsidies to money-losing wind and solar, non-stop bafflegab from government ministers: when will it stop? Not now, and maybe never.


----------



## Macfury

Knothead--she's still got a fresh patch to ruin, while Wynne needs to search harder to destroy new ground.



FeXL said:


> Dunno who is worse: Knothead or Wynne. MF?
> 
> Terence Corcoran: Another Ontario green energy blow-up


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> So much for free votes...
> 
> Liberals to whip the vote in favour of assisted-dying law



Man. It was pretty obvious that a lot of what he said on the campaign trail was unlikely to happen, but even I didn't think he'd be this blatant about it.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Knothead--she's still got a fresh patch to ruin, while Wynne needs to search harder to destroy new ground.


I'm not sure. That means Wynne's gotta get creative...


----------



## FeXL

Guess that wasn't a hill worth dying on...

Tom Mulcair says : NDP dropped 20 points in 48 hours after supporting niqab



> NDP Leader Tom Mulcair says decisions he made around TV debates and the niqab helped sink the party’s fortunes with voters.
> 
> While admitting he is partly to blame for the NDP’s third-place finish, Mulcair insists he should be leading the party into the next election, and will take that message to party members ahead of April’s leadership review.
> 
> “There were shortcomings in that campaign, and of course I take full responsibility for it,” the Montreal-area MP said in an interview with Chris Hall on CBC Radio’s The House.
> 
> “*[The niqab] hurt us terribly. It was measured. I can share with you that the polling we did showed we dropped over 20 points in 48 hours here in Quebec* because of the strong stand I took on the niqab,” Mulcair said.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Long article, excellent read.

Musings: Low Prices And Liberal Politics Change Canada's Energy Biz



> Natural resources play a significant role in Canada’s economy, especially in its Western provinces where most resources are located. As a result, the ending of the commodity super-cycle has dealt a devastating blow to the Canadian economy. For companies in the crude oil and natural gas sectors, dealing with low oil and gas prices has become a harrowing experience forcing substantial capital spending cuts, massive layoffs and financial devastation. The stress from managing companies in a low commodity price environment has been exacerbated by the altered political landscape, first in Alberta, and now nationally following the election of Justin Trudeau’s Liberal Party. This last power shift has placed the junior Trudeau in control of the economic policies of Canada. Prime Minister Trudeau entered the leadership office after having campaigned on a platform calling for more environmentally-friendly energy policies. That shift, which includes policies driven by climate change concerns, are now being unveiled. Energy company chief executive officers are confronting new challenges as they plot strategies for survival and eventually growth.


More:



> The new rules are an interim fix to deal with pipeline projects already proposed while the Trudeau government develops a major overhaul of how energy projects are approved and regulated. The new climate test will take into account not only the emissions created during the construction of the pipeline but also those from the process of extracting oil or gas once a pipeline is built and operating. Next month, the government will provide more details on the acceptable level of emissions. *The more interesting issue with this test is that the government says it will base its decisions not just on science but also on the traditional knowledge of indigenous peoples “and other relevant evidence.” Exactly what that evidence is was not spelled out.*


M'bold.

<snort>

Further:



> Will the Trudeau government apply a similar standard of no increase in carbon emissions from the operation of a pipeline such as President Barack Obama did when evaluating the construction permit application for Keystone? In that case, *the U.S. State Department environmental review concluded there would be no increase in carbon emissions, yet Mr. Obama still rejected the application, mostly on political grounds.* If Prime Minister Trudeau follows President Obama’s lead, Energy East is in trouble.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Yeah, it's just another poll but I find the results _very_ interesting...

Quebec prefers pipelines and Western oil, poll shows



> A new poll suggests Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre may not be representing his constituents' views on pipelines after all.
> 
> On Jan. 21, Coderre announced that all Montreal-area municipalities were opposed to the construction of the Energy East pipeline, which would travel through Quebec. But a new poll out from Leger shows respondents prefer pipelines over all the other options, and they prefer their oil comes from Western Canada, too.
> 
> The online poll of over 1,000 respondents taken in early February and commissioned by the Montreal Economic Institute asks where Quebecers think the best place is from which to import their oil.
> 
> *Western Canada is by far the top choice at 59%,* followed by Mexico at 5%, Saudi Arabia at 3% and Algeria at 2%. The remaining respondents chose "other," "don't know" or refused to answer.


More:



> Respondents were also asked "which of the following means is the safest to transport oil?" *The top choice was by pipeline, which 41% of respondents selected.* "Tank truck" garnered 14%, with "tank ship" at 10% and rail at 9%.


Huh. Western oil, via pipeline. Progressive leaders' heads are exploding everywhere...


----------



## SINC

Yep, about right . . .


----------



## FeXL

What's this? A Liberal Senator steps off the pipeline? (see what I did there?)

This Bull-****, quite frankly....

(Thought the Liberals didn't believe in Senators...)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Oh, good. Now they say they actually want to see what's in the bill, first...

Liberals suspend decision to whip vote on assisted-dying bill 



> The Liberals are backing away from their decision to whip the vote on the government’s upcoming legislation on doctor-assisted dying, now saying it was “premature” to determine how the vote will go without yet seeing a bill.
> 
> In an interview with The Globe and Mail, Liberal House Leader Dominic LeBlanc said *the decision about whether MPs will be forced to toe the party line will now be made after a parliamentary committee studying the issue releases its report next week, and not until the bill is drafted.*


Then they'll whip it...


----------



## FeXL

Just another shining example of why government (any gov't) has no business being in business.

Taxpayer-supported Edmonton recycling company goes bankrupt



> A city taxpayer-supported recycling plant that filed for bankruptcy produced an inferior product that generated few sales, according to court documents.
> 
> Greys Paper Recycling touted itself as an eco-friendly way to make stationery from old office paper and clothing.
> 
> Despite receiving millions in monetary support from the City of Edmonton since 2009, Greys filed for bankruptcy last month.


----------



## FeXL

So, Brad Wall doesn't want a carbon tax in his province. Ontario's Environment Minister is critical of that. Brad responds.

Wall to Ontario: None of your business



> Brad Wall is hitting back at Ontario’s Environment Minister as the tussle over carbon taxes heats up.
> 
> The populist premier of Saskatchewan says his province won’t be pricing carbon any time soon, despite an Ontario Minister’s advice that Saskatchewan support a national carbon tax to ‘level the playing field.’ Reports say the feds are eyeing a national carbon tax of $15 per tonne.
> 
> *“It's really none of Ontario's business…. the answers no - we’ve worked for eight years to develop the Saskatchewan advantage,” Wall told Ottawa Now Host Evan Solomon on 580 CFRA. “I don't want a level playing field for our province, I want to have this be the best place for companies to maintain jobs and to create new jobs and to invest.”*


M'bold.

Rachel, you listening?

Related:

How will Trudeau face the fallout from Wall’s opposition to carbon pricing?



> Now that Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall has declared his opposition to a pan-national price on carbon, the real fun begins.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is going to discover why trying to reach common accord among the provinces is often like herding cats.
> 
> But a national carbon policy is not just any old promise.
> 
> It was a central tenet of Mr. Trudeau’s election pledge to institute real change on this front.
> 
> It was partly the reason so many young people flocked to his campaign and why he was welcomed so enthusiastically at the World Economic Forum in Davos, where Tesla-driving attendees view him as being among the vanguard of a new generation of political leadership committed to substantive and progressive action on climate policy.
> 
> *But those who go to Davos often don’t live in the world of realpolitik.*


M'bold.

Or, real_ity..._

More:



> And therein lies Mr. Trudeau’s problem. Provinces are not going to abide by giving Mr. Wall the benefit that he seeks, especially in these uncertain economic times. *You can just imagine the grief Rachel Notley would receive in Alberta if she were to become a signatory to a carbon pricing accord that other provinces opted out of, potentially giving them a further leg up on a province that has already been taken to its knees because of the drop in oil prices.*
> 
> It will be fascinating to see how Canada’s new Prime Minister handles this file, certainly one of the most important on his desk. Failure is not an option. And yet when it comes to attempts to reach federal-provincial accords in this country, there is a long and illustrious history of just that.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Good question. Why is it that some people are celebrating a sign of oppression to women worldwide?

What Is Canada Doing Celebrating Hijab Day?



> *The outrage is that Hijab Solidarity Day will be taking place under the auspices of the City of Ottawa, the capital of Canada. It is not the role of a democratic government to celebrate religious symbols or to help religions proselytize.
> 
> *The government's acceptance of an Ottawa Hijab Solidarity Day amounts to accepting a radical legal system that is completely contrary to Canada's democratic values, and crosses the line that separates Church and State. Endorsing the hijab is endorsing the first step of an extremist ideology that leads to and condones honor killings, female genital mutilation (FGM) and the oppression of women.
> 
> **In 2007, Aqsa Parvez, a 16-year-old Pakistani Muslim living in Toronto, was strangled to death by her father. Her crime was that, as a free woman in Canada, she chose not to wear a hijab. In another case in Canada, in 2012, four Muslim women were murdered by their own family for refusing to wear a hijab and preferring Western clothing.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, those of you who voted for the party that this lying scumbag hairdo represents, does this increase in deficit numbers bother you?

Why not?

Liberals shatter deficit promise, projecting shortfall likely to exceed $20B



> The federal government is projecting a deficit of at least $18.4 billion next year, a shortfall that's nearly five times projections from just three months ago and well past the $10-billion limit promised by the Liberals.
> 
> When the government unveils its maiden budget on March 22, the deficit could well exceed $20 billion once a number of big-ticket Liberal campaign promises — including infrastructure spending — are factored in.


Is it because it doesn't matter how bad the deficit gets, how much taxpayer money it takes to fix the problem, as long as it happens under the Liberals, it's OK? How would you feel if the Conservatives had gotten in & announced these self-same numbers?


----------



## FeXL

Crickets on the last one. Figgers.

'K, how about this?

Backstory: Mothercorpse submits a story with a headline & conclusion that doesn't fit the narrative, goes back & edits it for politically correctness.

Most Canadians are skeptics, and CBC accidentally says so, then “edits” story



> *Oops! CBC (the Canadian version of the BBC and ABC) have been caught out editing a story to make it more politically correct. CBC’s political bias is accidentally on display. The original message revealed a sacred truth that must not be spoken.* How would most Canadians feel about being forced to pay money to change the weather if they knew most other Canadians also thought it was a waste of billions? As far as I can tell, the updated version was a complete rewrite of the first half of the article. There appear to be a lot of changes.
> 
> The unsurprising news is that 56% of Canadians are skeptics – which is very similar to all other surveys which show that 62% of Brits are 62% skeptical. As are 54% of Australians. Fully third of the US are so skeptical they think it’s a total hoax.


More:



> “The skepticism was a bit surprising,” said Érick Lachapelle, who co-authored the Yale Project on Climate Change Communication study, which is being submitted to a scientific journal for publication and has not yet been peer reviewed. *“I think it is partly because Canadians are less knowledgable than one might think on the topic.”*


M'bold.

Or, we've drank less kool-aid.
Or, we're not as stupid as you think we are.
Or, we're better informed.

Pick one, pick 'em all...


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Crickets on the last one. Figgers.
> 
> 
> 
> 'K, how about this?
> 
> 
> 
> Backstory: Mothercorpse submits a story with a headline & conclusion that doesn't fit the narrative, goes back & edits it for politically correctness.
> 
> 
> 
> Most Canadians are skeptics, and CBC accidentally says so, then “edits” story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, we've drank less kool-aid.
> 
> Or, we're not as stupid as you think we are.
> 
> Or, we're better informed.
> 
> 
> 
> Pick one, pick 'em all...



Has it occurred to you that people may not want to respond to your questions because all you do is insult them? Think about it. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

You insult with the best of them fjn. I still respond.



fjnmusic said:


> Has it occurred to you that people may not want to respond to your questions because all you do is insult them? Think about it.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Has it occurred to you that people may not want to respond to your questions because all you do is insult them? Think about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





Macfury said:


> You insult with the best of them fjn. I still respond.


Asshole anyone?... The pot is calling the kettle black.

We are all guilty to some extent in the name calling game so why don't we just stop being children about it and just stop doing it? How about we just can agree to disagree without calling each other names or making personal slurs?

We would be trail blazers on the internet.!!!

Just a thought... Haters are gonna hate and they have the right/freedom to do so (with limitations) but it would be a nicer place if we were more "diplomatic" about it.

My father-in-law (aka Dad) is dying at 97, not much longer to live according to the "experts" so like is common on these types of occasions, one thinks about what is really important.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Asshole anyone?... The pot is calling the kettle black.
> 
> We are all guilty to some extent in the name calling game so why don't we just stop being children about it and just stop doing it? How about we just can agree to disagree without calling each other names or making personal slurs?
> 
> We would be trail blazers on the internet.!!!
> 
> Just a thought... Haters are gonna hate and they have the right/freedom to do so (with limitations) but it would be a nicer place if we were more "diplomatic" about it.
> 
> My father-in-law (aka Dad) is dying at 97, not much longer to live according to the "experts" so like is common on these types of occasions, one thinks about what is really important.


:clap::clap::clap:

Amen, Brother Screature. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

Try me.

With _facts._ 

You are far less likely to get insulted when you bring an actual discussion, with _facts_, to the table. Short of that, it's open season & you deserve every bit of sarcasm, scorn & derision I can heap upon you.

If you've felt insulted, take a look at the argument you brought with you. For instance, "She's 50 & a lawyer. That makes her smart". I'm tired of politely debunking bull**** artists. It takes far too much time...

You think about that.



fjnmusic said:


> Has it occurred to you that people may not want to respond to your questions because all you do is insult them? Think about it.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You insult with the best of them fjn. I still respond.



Perhaps you are a masochist in that case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

FeXL said:


> Try me.
> 
> 
> 
> With _facts._
> 
> 
> 
> You are far less likely to get insulted when you bring an actual discussion, with _facts_, to the table. Short of that, it's open season & you deserve every bit of sarcasm, scorn & derision I can heap upon you.
> 
> 
> 
> If you've felt insulted, take a look at the argument you brought with you. For instance, "She's 50 & a lawyer. That makes her smart". I'm tired of politely debunking bull**** artists. It takes far too much time...
> 
> 
> 
> You think about that.



Abrasive. Look it up. It's not a positive character trait. And that's a fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> So, those of you who voted for the party that this lying scumbag hairdo represents, does this increase in deficit numbers bother you?
> 
> Why not?
> 
> Liberals shatter deficit promise, projecting shortfall likely to exceed $20B
> 
> 
> 
> Is it because it doesn't matter how bad the deficit gets, how much taxpayer money it takes to fix the problem, as long as it happens under the Liberals, it's OK? How would you feel if the Conservatives had gotten in & announced these self-same numbers?


Anyone who wasn't stupid could obviously see that there was an enormous costing hole on the Liberals' promises. It's going to be far more than $20B by year two, you can bank on that. The problem is, Trudeau's Liberals literally don't understand what economic management even means. Their own bureaucrats confirmed that the Conservatives absolutely did leave a surplus behind, but they just choose to reject reality because they don't understand that you really do have to KEEP TRACK of the money you spend, even when the taxpayers are covering the bill.


----------



## Macfury

I consider the source. Water off a duck's back.



fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps you are a masochist in that case.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> :clap::clap::clap:
> 
> Amen, Brother Screature. Paix, mon ami.


Thank you Marc. :-(


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Thank you Marc. :-(


No problem. You made a valid point. Paix.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> No problem. You made a valid point. Paix.


It is difficult making one here these days without suffering slings and arrows from one "side" or the other.

So once again, thank you.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> It is difficult making one here these days without suffering slings and arrows from one "side" or the other.
> 
> So once again, thank you.


I hear you, brother. This is why I stay away from some threads. I don't really have the time to read through the back and forth name calling. Still, I drop in to certain threads and react to positive comments like the one you made. 

"To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer. The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune, Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles, And by opposing end them."

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

As they say, Dr. G.: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."



Dr.G. said:


> I hear you, brother. This is why I stay away from some threads. I don't really have the time to read through the back and forth name calling. Still, I drop in to certain threads and react to positive comments like the one you made.
> 
> "To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer. The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune, Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles, And by opposing end them."
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> As they say, Dr. G.: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."


I can take the heat, Macfury, I just don't have the time for the constant back and forth of views/insults that seem to take over some threads. I contribute if I think that I have something positive to add to the discussion.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Asshole anyone?... The pot is calling the kettle black.
> 
> 
> 
> We are all guilty to some extent in the name calling game so why don't we just stop being children about it and just stop doing it? How about we just can agree to disagree without calling each other names or making personal slurs?
> 
> 
> 
> We would be trail blazers on the internet.!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought... Haters are gonna hate and they have the right/freedom to do so (with limitations) but it would be a nicer place if we were more "diplomatic" about it.
> 
> 
> 
> My father-in-law (aka Dad) is dying at 97, not much longer to live according to the "experts" so like is common on these types of occasions, one thinks about what is really important.



I agree with you completely, Screature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> I can take the heat, Macfury, I just don't have the time for the constant back and forth of views/insults that seem to take over some threads. I contribute if I think that I have something positive to add to the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Paix, mon ami.



Amen to that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Amen, you've seen the light... until the next time you let 'er rip!

.


fjnmusic said:


> Amen to that.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Amen, you've seen the light... until the next time you let 'er rip!
> 
> 
> 
> .



Hey Macfury: leave a tender moment alone. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Hey Macfury: leave a tender moment alone.


Just when I'm in a serious mood, you're suddenly quiet and shy.


----------



## screature

Same as it is was.... it need not be so, if only we could just...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.










+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Same as it is was.... it need not be so, if only we could just...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Bad connection.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Just to add...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Bad connection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have been having problems with YouTube links here as well but I seem to have gotten it sorted out. I hope you can do the same on your front.

All the best.


----------



## screature

And to add...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Just for vocal emphasis.


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> Hey Macfury: leave a tender moment alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Amen. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Michael Den Tandt: Liberals finding policy complexity can seemingly become incoherence in a heartbeat



> So, workers and employers in the oilpatch seeking a clear signal of federal support for new pipelines, even with rigorous safety and environmental safeguards a given, won’t get one out of Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr. Such clarity, we are informed, would be unseemly — a throwback to the ham-fisted ways of the Harper Conservatives, who got zero pipelines built. *But nor will the Liberals say they’re skeptical of new pipelines, on account of the oilpatch’s carbon footprint, for example. Good lord no! That would be a New Democratic Party position.*
> 
> Is Canada for or against selling lethal weapons systems to countries that routinely violate human rights, such as Saudi Arabia? The answer, according to Foreign Affairs Minister Stephane Dion, is yes and no. “Only the Sith deal in absolutes,” I hear the running Star Wars monologue in my head intone. The Tories presumably were Sith adepts to a man and woman, since they had no qualms about providing LAV III armoured vehicles to the House of Saud for a tidy $15 billion. *The Grits are far more subtle, feeling anguished pangs of guilt while pursuing the same policy.*


M'bold.

Yep...


----------



## SINC

The Boy Blunder has no idea, does he?


----------



## CubaMark

*Harper, right to the bitter end...*

*Site C Dam Permits Were Quietly Issued During The Federal Election*

Former prime minister Stephen Harper's government issued 14 permits for work on the $9-billion Site C dam during the writ period of the last election -- a move that was offside according to people familiar with the project and the workings of the federal government.

"By convention, only routine matters are dealt with after the writ is dropped," said Harry Swain, the chair of the Joint Review Panel that reviewed the Site C dam. "Permits and licences are only issued when a government considers the matter to be non-controversial and of no great public importance."

* * *​
Federal Green Party leader Elizabeth May noticed all of the Site C permits had been issued in late September, just weeks before October's federal election.

"They saw that they were unlikely to form government again so they began making appointments and decisions during the election," May told DeSmog Canada. "Usually during the writ period the government operates as a care-taker government, doing what's absolutely necessary."

Land clearing has begun on the dam, while opposition has continued to grow. First Nations are challenging the project in court over treaty issues and a protest camp was set up in the construction zone in December. (In Photos: The Destruction of the Peace River Valley for the Site C Dam)

"These permits are really quite distressing," May said. "You get two departments issuing all these permits in a two-week period. It looks orchestrated by the former government."​
(HuffPo)


----------



## Macfury

A win for the Harper--and for Canada!



CubaMark said:


> *Harper, right to the bitter end...*
> 
> *Site C Dam Permits Were Quietly Issued During The Federal Election*
> 
> Former prime minister Stephen Harper's government issued 14 permits for work on the $9-billion Site C dam during the writ period of the last election -- a move that was offside according to people familiar with the project and the workings of the federal government.
> 
> "By convention, only routine matters are dealt with after the writ is dropped," said Harry Swain, the chair of the Joint Review Panel that reviewed the Site C dam. "Permits and licences are only issued when a government considers the matter to be non-controversial and of no great public importance."
> 
> * * *​
> Federal Green Party leader Elizabeth May noticed all of the Site C permits had been issued in late September, just weeks before October's federal election.
> 
> "They saw that they were unlikely to form government again so they began making appointments and decisions during the election," May told DeSmog Canada. "Usually during the writ period the government operates as a care-taker government, doing what's absolutely necessary."
> 
> Land clearing has begun on the dam, while opposition has continued to grow. First Nations are challenging the project in court over treaty issues and a protest camp was set up in the construction zone in December. (In Photos: The Destruction of the Peace River Valley for the Site C Dam)
> 
> "These permits are really quite distressing," May said. "You get two departments issuing all these permits in a two-week period. It looks orchestrated by the former government."​
> (HuffPo)


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> A win for the Harper--and for Canada!


.


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *Harper, right to the bitter end...*
> 
> *Site C Dam Permits Were Quietly Issued During The Federal Election*
> 
> Former prime minister Stephen Harper's government issued 14 permits for work on the $9-billion Site C dam during the writ period of the last election -- a move that was offside according to people familiar with the project and the workings of the federal government.
> 
> "By convention, only routine matters are dealt with after the writ is dropped," said Harry Swain, the chair of the Joint Review Panel that reviewed the Site C dam. "Permits and licences are only issued when a government considers the matter to be non-controversial and of no great public importance."
> 
> * * *​
> Federal Green Party leader Elizabeth May noticed all of the Site C permits had been issued in late September, just weeks before October's federal election.
> 
> "They saw that they were unlikely to form government again so they began making appointments and decisions during the election," May told DeSmog Canada. "Usually during the writ period the government operates as a care-taker government, doing what's absolutely necessary."
> 
> Land clearing has begun on the dam, while opposition has continued to grow. First Nations are challenging the project in court over treaty issues and a protest camp was set up in the construction zone in December. (In Photos: The Destruction of the Peace River Valley for the Site C Dam)
> 
> "These permits are really quite distressing," May said. "You get two departments issuing all these permits in a two-week period. It looks orchestrated by the former government."​
> (HuffPo)





Macfury said:


> A win for the Harper--and for Canada!


Pray tell what did I win? Are there shipping and handling charges or do I have to give banking and/or credit card information to receive my "winnings?"


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Pray tell what did I win? Are there shipping and handling charges or do I have to give banking and/or credit card information to receive my "winnings?"


No, because your computer is sending out viruses. The Microsoft Technician will call you shortly.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Read it & weep. It's the last one for a long time...

Black to Red



> 2015 ended in the black.


Interesting comment below. Not going to link to a CBC article, feel free if you want.



> Even Neil Macdonald of the CBC has noticed that the Liberals aren't quite up to snuff. *I guess Trudeau hasn't cut the CBC a cheque yet.*
> 
> Liberals sunny on the surface, much fudgier underneath


M'bold.

Ha!!!


----------



## FeXL

And, in related news, congratulations, Ontariowe!

Ontario's net debt expected to exceed $300 billion in Thursday's budget



> Ontario's Liberal government will outline a plan to eliminate its deficit and stem the growth of its massive debt in today's provincial budget, *the ninth in a row to be awash in red ink.*
> 
> Low oil prices and a weaker loonie have helped Ontario lead the country in economic growth, but *the province has the largest debt of any sub-national government in the world.*


M'bold.

Stunning.

Woohoo! Have a drink, me boyos!

Don't worry. Alberta won't be far behind...


----------



## FeXL

Article from Oct 2015.

Caution: links to Mothercorpse inside.

Interesting approach.

Canadian City Completely Eradicates Homelessness With Brand New Approach



> In the Canadian town of Medicine Hat, Alberta, where 60,000 people live, everyone has a home tonight.
> 
> That's after six years of instituting a "Housing First" policy that flips the status quo on its head but has helped restore safety and shelter to a city that needed it.
> 
> Back in 2009, Mayor Ted Clugston was actively opposing the policy, which pledges to give any person who spends ten days on the street a home. Today, he has come to realize that not only does the policy work for the people, but it works for the govenrnment, too.


I wonder if there are any downfalls to the program.


----------



## eMacMan

Probably a thought crime to even post this but WTH. 
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-b...ycott-israel-movement-liberals-221155093.html

Pretty much a vote to suppress free speech and right to protest!



> OTTAWA - Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberals have joined forces with the official Opposition to overwhelmingly approve a Conservative motion condemning all Canadians who promote the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement against Israel.
> But not all Liberals are on side.
> 
> About a dozen Liberal MPs refused to vote on the motion, which passed by a vote of 229-51; two Liberals voted against it.
> 
> Nevertheless, the fact that Trudeau and most Liberals supported it prompted NDP Leader Tom Mulcair to charge that the prime minister is once again aligning himself with the Tories to suppress the civil liberties of advocacy groups.
> .......
> 
> "But to call upon the government to condemn someone for having that opinion, that's unheard of," Mulcair said, adding that motion "makes it a thought crime to express an opinion."
> 
> "Since when do we allow that in a free and democratic society?"


----------



## eMacMan

OTOH The hairdo did get this one more or less right.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/look-proposed-changes-citizenship-act-compared-existing-law-151825494.html

While I am sure that creating second class citizenship, has immense appeal to the super elite. Con-Bill C-24 should have been tossed without ever receiving first reading.


----------



## Macfury

Just a lovely budget. I don't know why Wynne simply doesn't merge with the NDP at this point. The party is corrupt and willfully stupid.



FeXL said:


> Read it & weep. It's the last one for a long time...
> 
> Black to Red


----------



## SINC

Boy Blunder strikes again:

Canada will build mosques for flood of Muslim refugees


----------



## SINC

And the US is getting nervous:

The Terror Threat From the North | Observer


----------



## FeXL

Go Kevin!

O'Leary vows all-out war against Trudeau's first budget



> Kevin O'Leary, the firebrand businessman and potential Conservative leadership candidate, promised all-out war Friday against the soon-to-be tabled federal budget.
> 
> O'Leary said he made that vow when he met Justin Trudeau's finance minister, Bill Morneau, at an event in Toronto last week.


And, this:



> *O'Leary told reporters he likely won't decide whether he'll run for the Conservative Party leadership until much closer to the May 2017 voting date.*
> 
> "As an investor, as a Canadian, I have had enough," O'Leary said. "I'm sick of seeing my money wasted. I'm pissed off!"


I'd consider him.

Welcome to the Revolution...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Caution: link to Mothercorpse inside.

Flush



> The 20 per cent increase to MPs' office budgets means each MP will be able to spend an additional $57,690 on top of the current budget of $288,450.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Woohoo!

Trudeau makes Nobel shortlist...



> “I have a feeling that I may well be explaining my choice by saying ‘because it’s 2017,’” said Trudeau, when asked who he was considering for the office. ‘It’s important that we have a Governor General who looks like Canada does.”
> 
> Trudeau then winked at the audience, before hissing like a goose and flapping his arms.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

No argument.

Terrorist scumbag doesn't deserve citizenship



> The Liberal government lived up to immigration minister John McCallum’s warnings of radical new changes to the Canada’s citizenship laws.
> 
> Among the proposed changes announced on Thursday, the Trudeau government wants to cut the language requirement for anyone over the age of 54, reduce the time a permanent resident must live in Canada before they become eligible for citizenship, and *no longer revoke the citizenship of those convicted of terrorism, espionage, or treason.*
> 
> *The Trudeau government also announced that they will reinstate the citizenship of the Jordanian terrorist who had his citizenship revoked under the Harper government. Zakaria Amara was convicted of terrorism and given a life sentence back in 2010.*


M'bold.


----------



## CubaMark

*Nice.*

*So, Conservative leader Rona Ambrose's Twitter Q&A was a train wreck...*

Interim Conservative leader Rona Ambrose hosted a question and answer session at Twitter headquarters Tuesday afternoon.



> Hey everyone, I’ll be @TwitterCanada HQ tomorrow for a Q&A. Send your Qs using #AskAmbrose. Hope to hear from you! pic.twitter.com/caZi4r2cPC
> — Rona Ambrose (@RonaAmbrose) February 29, 2016


How did that go?

Well, you can't say there wasn't a reaction: 

Here is a sampling of some of the questions that helped #AskAmbrose become the top trending hashtag in Canada:



> Am I old stock or new stock? #AskAmbrose
> — Rabie Abdelhamid (@RAA353) March 1, 2016





> On the day that Harper was found in contempt of Parliament, what was the mood in cabinet? #AskAmbrose
> — StumpyJoChilds (@StumpyJoChilds) March 1, 2016





> In #elxn42 your party stirred up anti-Muslim sentiment & there were acts of violence against Muslims & mosques.
> 
> Are you sorry? #AskAmbrose
> — Andrew Tumilty (@AndrewTumilty) March 1, 2016





> #AskAmbrose Why didn't you support the investigation of #MMIW while you were in office? Why the change now that you're in the opposition?
> — Michael O'Connor (@spaceandguns) March 1, 2016





> [email protected] According to the Conservatives declaration,you still don't support gay marriage.What's up? #AskAmbrose pic.twitter.com/JyrVthyoWh
> — Mike Morrison (@mikesbloggity) March 1, 2016





> #AskAmbrose if I declare my uterus a corporation will #CPC stop trying to regulate it?#prochoice pic.twitter.com/zzgwZeClbE
> — Kathy Dawson (@blueskies366) March 1, 2016


(More at PressProgress)


----------



## FeXL

Jes' loving it...

O'Leary calls out Wynne in open letter



> _Re: New Cap and Trade Slush Fund_
> 
> Hi Premier, just saw you are setting up a new $1.9 billion cap and trade fund that you and Finance Minister Charles Sousa will be overseeing. Congratulations, you two are now managing the largest hedge fund in Ontario’s history!
> 
> I’m just as optimistic as you are. But I recently made a promise to every taxpayer in Canada that I would call out mediocrity, incompetence and risk in government economic and fiscal policy, so I feel the need to verify a few things:


He concludes:



> Oh, and good luck with the funds performance. *No one else on earth has ever reduced emissions or made money doing this, so I’ll be watching and keeping everybody informed with all the good news that is sure to be coming.* And, of course, we will all be breathing easier watching those carbon emissions plunge as soon as you start spending this money!


M'bold.

Related:

Cap-and-trade will be 'slush fund' unless tight control, critics warn



> Opposition parties have demanded tighter controls on the Liberal government’s cap-and-trade plan over concerns it will turn into a “slush fund” for provincial politicians.
> 
> As Ontarians get primed to pay more for gasoline, home heating and diesel, the Progressive Conservatives, New Democrats and even outspoken businessman Kevin O’Leary are complaining that the funds raised through a carbon pricing program could be funnelled into government initiatives that have little to do with climate change.


----------



## CubaMark

Note that the bastion of commie newshour contamination (I believe that sums of certain characters' opinion) of the CBC was notably absent from its coverage of the Rona Ambrose Twitter disaster:

Rona Ambrose talks pipelines, women in politics and pro sports in Twitter chat - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Note that the bastion of commie newshour contamination (I believe that sums of certain characters' opinion) of the CBC was notably absent from its coverage of the Rona Ambrose Twitter disaster:
> 
> Rona Ambrose talks pipelines, women in politics and pro sports in Twitter chat - Politics - CBC News


That story is a bore.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Quebec's opposition to Energy East.

Energy East Injunction Sought By Quebec Government



> Quebec’s environment minister David Heurtel is scheduled to make the announcement Tuesday morning in Montreal. He is expected to say the province is hoping to force TransCanada to file an application so that the Energy East pipeline can be evaluated under Quebec’s environmental legislation.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Words are important. If you control the language, you control the narrative.

Screw you, McCallum. They are barbaric...

Immigration Minister: Describing honour killings, FGM as “barbaric” is too “heavy”



> John Mccallum, Minister of Immigration. Refugees and Citizenship, is working with Ministers of Heritage and Indigenous Affairs to amend the book “Discover Canada: The Rights and Responsibilities of Citizenship” which newcomers have to study for the citizenship test.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Words are important. If you control the language, you control the narrative.
> 
> *Screw you, McCallum. They are barbaric...*
> 
> Immigration Minister: Describing honour killings, FGM as “barbaric” is too “heavy”


Agreed. The guy speaks and acts like a puppet, always has, always will.

I wonder what "narrative" McCallum wants to "control" regarding such *barbaric* acts? Maybe something like this:

"If you come to Canada please try not to kill the female members of your family if they are free minded, it might lead to you getting into a little bit of trouble. If you decide to go ahead just make sure you have access to a good lawyer that you can afford."


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> "...just make sure you have access to a good lawyer that you can afford."


If not, one will be provided for you at no cost to you.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> If not, one will be provided for you at no cost to you.


Yup.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> If not, one will be provided for you at no cost to you.


Uh he said good lawyer. The appointed lawyers usually fall more than a little short of the good category!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Provinces oppose Trudeau's carbon floor-price proposal 



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is facing stout provincial opposition to his proposal for a national floor price for carbon as premiers urge him to focus on areas of agreement in his effort to forge a climate strategy.
> 
> Provincial and territorial premiers met Wednesday ahead of their climate summit with Mr. Trudeau, and found no support for a federally mandated minimum carbon price.


More:



> Saskatchewan Premier *Brad Wall says his government will never agree to a plan that imposes carbon pricing on his province.* And even some provinces that have carbon levies are reluctant to see Ottawa impose a minimum carbon price. *Quebec, for example, is arguing that energy is clearly an area of provincial jurisdiction, sources said Wednesday.*


M'bold.

Interesting, that bolded observation from Quebec. That's exactly the argument Alberta had with PET on the NEP...

Further:



> Mr. Trudeau’s comment drew criticism from some environmentalists who say the country must discourage further investment in fossil fuel development if it is going to meet its obligations as part of the world effort to hold global warming to no more than 2-degrees above pre-industrial levels.
> 
> “Growth in oil sands development is inconsistent with our long-term climate protection goals and does nothing to position Canada for rapid de-carbonization as long as oil sands products are simply burned in vehicles,” said Louise Comeau, executive director from the Climate Action Network Canada.


This whole 2 degree bull**** slays me. I just wish one somebody would show these idiots a temperature graph of the last 10,000 years.

In addition, this planet runs on fossil fuels. Period. There is no product that will replace that in the foreseeable future. Rather than wasting time & money attempting to shut down an essential industry, why not try to create _affordable, free-market_ alternatives?

Related and from the "Maybe There's Hope For Ontariowe Yet" Department:

Poll suggests Ontarians not warming to carbon-pricing scheme



> This probably wasn’t the carbon offset Premier Kathleen Wynne’s Liberals had in mind when they crafted the provincial budget.
> 
> A new poll suggests the government’s carbon-pricing scheme to fight climate change has offset the positive impact‎ of giving free college and university tuition to low-income students.


----------



## Dr.G.

Canadian immigration lawyers getting calls from Americans after Trump's primary wins - The Globe and Mail

The plaque at the base of Mother Canada says, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free of The Donald."


----------



## FeXL

I think they should all apply for immigration (or maybe even refugee status!!!) to a nice, quiet, friendly, socialist country. Like Venezuela...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Eye-watering... 

Canada on track for $150B in budget deficits over five years, says TD report



> A new analysis by one of Canada’s biggest banks says the federal government could run $150 billion in budget deficits over the next five years.
> 
> The TD Bank report, released March 2, also estimates Ottawa’s current fiscal path means it will take more than a decade to bring the budget back into balance—*unless the government raises taxes or cuts spending.*


M'bold.

Guess budgets don't just heal themselves after all...


----------



## SINC

Yep.

The Trudeau-Notley-Wynne carbon rip-off | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

It's Official: Canada Has Sold All Of Its Gold Reserves



> One month ago, when looking at the latest Canadian official international reserves, we noticed something strange: Canada had sold nearly half of its gold reserves in one month. According to the February data, total Canadian gold reserves stood at 1.7 tonnes. That was just 0.1 per cent of the country’s total reserves, which also include foreign currency deposits and bonds.
> 
> As we noted, the decision to sell came from Finance Minister Bill Morneau’s office.
> 
> “*Canada’s gold reserves belong to the Government of Canada*, and are held under the name of the Minister of Finance,” explained a spokesperson for the Bank of Canada on Wednesday. “Decisions relative to gold holdings are taken by the Minister of Finance.”


M'bold.

"Canada’s gold reserves belong to the *Taxpayers* of Canada". FTFY, you arrogant little prick.

And, in a buyers market, no less...


----------



## SINC

More embarrassment.

Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau Says Americans Should Pay Attention to the World | NBC New York


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> More embarrassment.
> 
> Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau Says Americans Should Pay Attention to the World | NBC New York


Very bad idea. When ever the US looks outside its borders it either bombs another nation or sends in the CIA to implement regime change! 

We really don't need to create any more refugees.


----------



## SINC

Yep, sums it up perfectly.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> More embarrassment.


Hilarious.

This hypocrisy from the guy who said, (and I quote):

"I don't read the newspapers, I don't watch the news. I figure, if something important happens, someone will tell me about it."

In that case...Hey, Justin, you have cranio-rectal inversion...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> It's Official: Canada Has Sold All Of Its Gold Reserves
> M'bold.
> 
> "Canada’s gold reserves belong to the *Taxpayers* of Canada". FTFY, you arrogant little prick.
> 
> And, in a buyers market, no less...


Would you care to revise your expression of anger after learning that this was not something Trudeau came up with; it's been a "longstanding policy" under the Conservatives and before.

*(snarky question removed in order to play nice on ehMac)*


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Would you care to revise your expression of anger after learning that this was not something Trudeau came up with; it's been a "longstanding policy" under the Conservatives and before.
> 
> Or do you want to just continue frothing at the mouth like a rabid animal?


Whoa there! FeXL was criticizing JT not you Mark. He may have been wrong in his assessment, I don't really know... As you don't and the rest of us here don't really know for sure.

*But*. Your post:



> *Or do you want to just continue frothing at the mouth like a rabid animal?*


certainly is unkind and disrespectful.

You two have a long standing feud (as I have had in the past with others here, I am certainly no angel), it has been so long I don't even know where it began... At this point I doubt either one of you do either............

Count to 10 (at least) before posting........

Take a deep breath, and then get a cup of tea or your favorite beverage, or go out for a walk... whatever helps to calm your nerves.

Just a thought, how about we click on *Restart *and we can all pretend that the next post we make is the first one here on ehMac.

It might not make for good continuity, but it may help to solve a lot of problems here.


----------



## fjnmusic

What does FTFY stand for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Whoa there! FeXL was criticizing JT not you Mark. He may have been wrong in his assessment, I don't really know... As you don't and the rest of us here don't really know for sure.
> 
> *But*. Your post:
> 
> certainly is unkind and disrespectful.


I'm taking the low road, perhaps - and in the past, he's pushed my buttons and I've lost my cool. But in the exchanges he & I have shared, I've let a lot of his crap go unanswered. He's called me far worse, and far more often.

I'm happy to take a breath and lay off the colourful language... though I doubt we'll see reciprocation.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I'm taking the low road, perhaps - and *in the past,* he's pushed my buttons and I've lost my cool. But in the exchanges he & I have shared, I've let a lot of his crap go unanswered. He's called me far worse, and far more often.
> 
> *I'm happy to take a breath and lay off the colourful language...* though I doubt we'll see reciprocation.


That is why I posted what I did... Maybe, just maybe we can click on restart and reboot the system.

Good. Take the highroad, the view is better.

All the best Mark.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> What does FTFY stand for?


Based on my quick search FTFY means:



> FTFY. (education) first-time first-year (often referring to offerings for entering freshmen) (Internet slang) Fixed that for you; appended to a modified quotation, as if the modification “fixes” the original statement


----------



## SINC

This hits the nail right on the head.

Trudeau's definition of Canadian is not mine | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## FeXL

As always, your hair trigger sets you off frothing long before you even bother to finish the post.

My two posts critical of the Liberals selling off gold stand. Whether or not it was done before, it's stupid. And, even if it was done before, there was always some left. Now, there is zero. The "It's 2015!" team has emptied the gold coffers. Leave it to PM Pompadour...

As my corrected quote (FTFY=Fixed That For You) _clearly_ illustrates, my "expression of anger" was not directed at the Liberals for selling off Canada's gold reserves. It was directed at a certain f'ing pig-ignorant Federal Dept head claiming it's his. It ain't. Anything that the Federal Gov't "owns" is there because of taxpayers money. While the Feds may hold said property in trust for the populace, we, the taxpayers, own every damn bit of it. 

And, I don't recall the question ever being asked.

Finally, don't insult my intelligence by posting a link to anything CBC, save their ultimate demise. That one I'll click on...



CubaMark said:


> Would you care to revise your expression of anger after learning that this was not something Trudeau came up with; it's been a "longstanding policy" under the Conservatives and before.
> 
> *(snarky question removed in order to play nice on ehMac)*


----------



## SINC

Without fail . . .


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> As always, your hair trigger sets you off frothing long before you even bother to finish the post.


Yep. That didn't take long.


----------



## FeXL

<sniff> :-(



CubaMark said:


> Yep. That didn't take long.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Without fail . . .


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Save our doxies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## FeXL

Interesting question in the headline. I'll get back to that.

Canada may already be carbon neutral, so why are we keeping it a secret?



> A conservative estimate of Canada’s existing carbon-absorption capacity, based on land area and the global carbon-absorption average, indicates that *Canada could already be absorbing 20 to 30 per cent more CO2 than we emit.* Using the same calculation, the “Big Four” polluters of China, the U.S., the European Union, and India, which together are responsible for a whopping 60 per cent of global CO2 emissions, release 10 times more CO2 than their combined land area absorbs. Canada doesn’t seem very dirty now, do we?


M'bold.

More:



> Canada must successfully lobby for a world market on carbon-offset credits, where CO2 absorption is part of the equation. The potential impact is huge. Based on the aforementioned estimates of our absorption capacity, and a conservative CO2 price of $40/tonne, Canada stands to gain $10 billion per year. *Think about it; we might currently be giving away $10 billion to the rest of the world, including the Big Four polluters, every year, for free.*


Interesting approach.

Further:



> *Taxing Canadians to try to make planet Earth greener is futile policy based on a half-blind approach that only considers emissions from our resources, not absorption from our land and forests.* Unless we change that perspective, the inevitable result is a drag on our economy with job casualties, increased costs, and lost business opportunities, ultimately weakening Canada’s ability to compete on the international stage. And for what do we sell out our future? To let the Big Four polluters off the hook? To be popular with delegates in Copenhagen or Paris?


I don't care for Cap & Trade, period, but if it must happen, I'd be willing to listen to this pitch.

Now, as far as the headline question is concerned, it's because that idea doesn't follow the narrative...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Kevin Libin: To Justin Trudeau, the economic data always say ‘spend’



> On Thursday came another example of the Liberal government’s refreshing new “evidence-based” policy, where the fiscal evidence somehow always backs new spending policies. Just a day after Statistics Canada released moderately encouraging data on Canada’s fourth-quarter economic performance, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was telling Bloomberg that the case has never been stronger for digging deeper into debt.
> 
> Trudeau sat down with reporter Josh Wingrove to share some of the fiscal wisdom he’s gained in his four months on the job. “My message to other government leaders is don’t fall into the trap that thinking that balancing the books” is an end in itself, he said. “It’s a means to an end.” Of course, there aren’t many governments anywhere close to falling into that trap, including Trudeau’s. *Among the G7, only Germany appears to have been reckless enough to fall for the ol’ balanced-budget con, although somehow its economic growth still managed to outpace Canada’s for 2015.*


M'bold.

Curious, that...


----------



## SINC

Hoo boy . . .

Canadian province Ontario plans to trial universal basic income | Americas | News | The Independent


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Hoo boy . . .
> 
> Canadian province Ontario plans to trial universal basic income | Americas | News | The Independent





> As Ontario’s economy grows, the government remains committed to leaving no one behind.


That's a tractor with a two-stroke engine!


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Hoo boy . . .
> 
> Canadian province Ontario plans to trial universal basic income | Americas | News | The Independent


Don't think we will see this, like most of Wynne's promises. GI is not an effective method....I prefer living wage approach.....and we won't see that either.


----------



## CubaMark

*Want more proof that the 1% gets to play by its own rulebook?*

*Canada Revenue offered amnesty to wealthy KPMG clients in offshore tax 'sham'*

The Canada Revenue Agency offered amnesty to multi-millionaire clients caught using what's been called an offshore tax "sham" on the Isle of Man — a reprieve that was supposed to remain secret and out of the public eye until it was uncovered by a CBC News/Radio-Canada investigation. 

The amnesty allows for "high net worth" clients of the accounting giant KPMG to be free from any future civil or criminal prosecution — as well as any penalties or fines — for their involvement in the controversial scheme.

The clients simply had to agree to pay their back taxes and modest interest on these offshore investments, which they had failed to report on their income tax returns.

Documents show that the scheme had attracted at least $130 million.

CBC/Radio-Canada obtained a copy of the confidential nine-page offer, signed on May 1, 2015 by CRA's manager of offshore compliance, Stephanie Henderson.

It promised KPMG clients that the CRA would not impose any penalties for taxes dodged in a scheme that lasted more than a decade.

* * *​
CBC showed the secret CRA amnesty offer to a number of tax lawyers.

Toronto tax lawyer Duane Milot, who represents middle-income Canadians in disputes with the CRA, says his clients are routinely dragged through the courts for years by Canada Revenue.

"It's outrageous," he told CBC News after reading the leaked document. "The CRA appears to be saying to Canadians, 'If you're rich and wealthy, you get a second chance, but if you're not, you're stuck.'"

Jonathan Garbutt, a veteran Bay Street tax lawyer says the CRA may be looking to avoid a long, costly court battle with KPMG's multi-millionaire investors as it lacks resources for these kinds of fights.

* * *​
Whatever the reason behind the offer, it's clear the CRA didn't want anyone else to find out about the amnesty deal.

The leaked document includes the clause CONFIDENTIALITY in capital letters in paragraph 18.

"The taxpayer agrees to ensure the confidentiality of the offer and will not inform any person of the conditions of the offer," the letter states.

"This doesn't pass the smell test," Milot said. "This is exactly the type of government behaviour that erodes the public's confidence in the system, these type of secret deals. Everybody should be treated equally."​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Crony capitalism at its finest.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Want more proof that the 1% gets to play by its own rulebook?*
> 
> *Canada Revenue offered amnesty to wealthy KPMG clients in offshore tax 'sham'*
> 
> The Canada Revenue Agency offered amnesty to multi-millionaire clients caught using what's been called an offshore tax "sham" on the Isle of Man — a reprieve that was supposed to remain secret and out of the public eye until it was uncovered by a CBC News/Radio-Canada investigation.
> 
> The amnesty allows for "high net worth" clients of the accounting giant KPMG to be free from any future civil or criminal prosecution — as well as any penalties or fines — for their involvement in the controversial scheme.
> 
> The clients simply had to agree to pay their back taxes and modest interest on these offshore investments, which they had failed to report on their income tax returns.
> 
> Documents show that the scheme had attracted at least $130 million.
> 
> CBC/Radio-Canada obtained a copy of the confidential nine-page offer, signed on May 1, 2015 by CRA's manager of offshore compliance, Stephanie Henderson.
> 
> It promised KPMG clients that the CRA would not impose any penalties for taxes dodged in a scheme that lasted more than a decade.
> 
> * * *​
> CBC showed the secret CRA amnesty offer to a number of tax lawyers.
> 
> Toronto tax lawyer Duane Milot, who represents middle-income Canadians in disputes with the CRA, says his clients are routinely dragged through the courts for years by Canada Revenue.
> 
> "It's outrageous," he told CBC News after reading the leaked document. "The CRA appears to be saying to Canadians, 'If you're rich and wealthy, you get a second chance, but if you're not, you're stuck.'"
> 
> Jonathan Garbutt, a veteran Bay Street tax lawyer says the CRA may be looking to avoid a long, costly court battle with KPMG's multi-millionaire investors as it lacks resources for these kinds of fights.
> 
> * * *​
> Whatever the reason behind the offer, it's clear the CRA didn't want anyone else to find out about the amnesty deal.
> 
> The leaked document includes the clause CONFIDENTIALITY in capital letters in paragraph 18.
> 
> "The taxpayer agrees to ensure the confidentiality of the offer and will not inform any person of the conditions of the offer," the letter states.
> 
> "This doesn't pass the smell test," Milot said. "This is exactly the type of government behaviour that erodes the public's confidence in the system, these type of secret deals. Everybody should be treated equally."​
> (CBC)


tptptptp:greedy:

I did not want to see this as I have just finished doing my taxes. Sadly, I owe the CRA over $1300 since my pay came from NL, with NL taxes taken out, but I live in NS, which has a higher tax base.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Liberals prepared to cancel our military heritage



> The Liberal government appears to be on the verge of a military heritage-cancellation spree that is both an insult to veterans past and present and a woeful repudiation of Canada’s military heritage.
> 
> The news that monuments honouring Canada’s mission to Afghanistan and Victoria Cross recipients, as well as events commemorating our large contribution to the Great War, are under re-consideration is unworthy of a Canadian government of any political stripe.


----------



## FeXL

Vivian Krause: New U.S. funding for the war on Canadian oil



> Tides USA letters reveal $3.2-million in payments over last few months to activists groups and environmental organizations in Canada, U.S. and Europe. The objective: Create opposition to Canadian oil developments.


Nice.


----------



## FeXL

Petroleum industry supporter pours urine on CBC reporters head.



> The perpetrator of the attack was briefly held at the scene by those in Southern’s camp, but was eventually let go.


HA!


----------



## FeXL

Following Ontariowe's lead.

TransCanada to terminate Alberta coal power contracts due to higher emissions costs



> TransCanada says three of its Alberta power plants will become unprofitable as a result of a change in provincial law, so it plans to terminate their power purchase agreements.
> 
> The Calgary-based company says costs associated with carbon-dioxide emissions from the coal-fired plants have risen and are forecast to increase further over the remaining term of the agreements.


There goes the price of electricity.

Thx, Rachel. Wonder if this is going to be in her Throne Speech...


----------



## rgray




----------



## FeXL

Don't worry, MF. We're not long behind...

Debt Accumulation in Ontario Compared to Other Provinces



> A recent Fraser Institute study showed that Ontario’s provincial government has accumulated debt rapidly in recent years. In fact, Ontario has acquired more than half of its nearly $300 billion net debt (a measure that adjusts for financial assets) since 2003/04.


Huh. 2003. Remind me again what political party has been in power since then?

FJN, take a look at those Alberta numbers. We'll take another look in 3 years, see what direction we've moved...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on 60 terrorists roaming the streets of Canada, unmolested...

Liberals vow to review Canada’s poor record jailing Islamist fighters returning to country



> Canada’s poor record at jailing Islamist fighters returning from Syria and Iraq will be scrutinized as part of the government’s overhaul of the nation’s security apparatus.
> 
> The commitment Tuesday by Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, responsible for Canada’s chief spy agency and the RCMP, follows news that about 60 individuals in Canada are suspected to have returned from foreign battlefields and the ranks of the Islamic State, al-Qaida and other terrorist groups.


Review? Well, I feel safer already...


----------



## Macfury

Accumulating debt is a feature of "progressive" thinking.



FeXL said:


> Don't worry, MF. We're not long behind...
> 
> Debt Accumulation in Ontario Compared to Other Provinces
> 
> 
> 
> Huh. 2003. Remind me again what political party has been in power since then?
> 
> FJN, take a look at those Alberta numbers. We'll take another look in 3 years, see what direction we've moved...


----------



## FeXL

In that case, I guess he won't mind if it happens at 24 Sussex...

Trudeau tells 60 Minutes, even if a Syrian refugee commits terrorism his policy was right.


----------



## CubaMark

*An MP Slowly Ran Away From Us When We Asked About Her Fundraising Off A Dead Soldier*

_n an odd and painfully awkward interview, Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant refused to answer questions about her invoking a dead soldier to peddle Easter hams._

As first reported by the CBC, Gallant sent out a fundraising email entitled “TERRORISTS IN OUR MIDSTS” that prominently features Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as “A Hero Forever in our Hearts.”

Cirillo was murdered in 2014 at the National War Memorial as part of the attack on Parliament by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau.

The email links to a fundraising page where readers are offered an Easter ham if they donate to the Conservative party.​
(BuzzFeed)


----------



## MacGuiver

CubaMark said:


> *An MP Slowly Ran Away From Us When We Asked About Her Fundraising Off A Dead Soldier*
> 
> _n an odd and painfully awkward interview, Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant refused to answer questions about her invoking a dead soldier to peddle Easter hams._
> 
> As first reported by the CBC, Gallant sent out a fundraising email entitled “TERRORISTS IN OUR MIDSTS” that prominently features Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as “A Hero Forever in our Hearts.”
> 
> Cirillo was murdered in 2014 at the National War Memorial as part of the attack on Parliament by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau.
> 
> The email links to a fundraising page where readers are offered an Easter ham if they donate to the Conservative party.​
> (BuzzFeed)


Stop the presses! An MP running away for a reporter! Like thats never happened before.

Further to this story. The mailing was not about selling hams. It was a fundraiser for the riding association and they made the mistake of offering an incentive. A ham. The headlines wouldn't be quite as sexy without the ham angle. It would have read, Cirillo image used in fundraiser appeal by Conservative MP". That said, the appeal was looking for support to help fight the stupidity of the Liberals insisting people that plot to attack our country and kill Canadians in acts of terror (like the Cirillo case) retain their Canadian citizenship and the benefits that entails. I find the idea of terrorists retaining citizenship far more offensive than the use of the Cirillo image to campaign against it.

This is what it looks like when an MP runs from a reporter. 
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-dr160f59s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-dr160f59s[/ame]


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *An MP Slowly Ran Away From Us When We Asked About Her Fundraising Off A Dead Soldier*_n an odd and painfully awkward interview, Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant refused to answer questions about her invoking a dead soldier to peddle Easter hams._
> 
> As first reported by the CBC, Gallant sent out a fundraising email entitled “TERRORISTS IN OUR MIDSTS” that prominently features Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as “A Hero Forever in our Hearts.”
> 
> Cirillo was murdered in 2014 at the National War Memorial as part of the attack on Parliament by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau.
> 
> The email links to a fundraising page where readers are offered an Easter ham if they donate to the Conservative party.​(BuzzFeed)


I do recall learning that the police tape and barricades were already at the memorial but not in place before the shooting. Also the video of the four witnesses racing to their marks, waiting a few seconds for the car to arrive, then running in feigned terror when the car door opened. A whole lot of things make this appear more like a staged attack rather than the genuine article!

Sad that Cirillo had to lose his life to advance the Con cause.


----------



## Macfury

*Slowly* running away.



MacGuiver said:


> Stop the presses! An MP running away for a reporter! Like thats never happened before.


----------



## MacGuiver

eMacMan said:


> I do recall learning that the police tape and barricades were already at the memorial but not in place before the shooting. Also the video of the four witnesses racing to their marks, waiting a few seconds for the car to arrive, then running in feigned terror when the car door opened. A whole lot of things make this appear more like a staged attack rather than the genuine article!
> 
> Sad that Cirillo had to lose his life to advance the Con cause.


I hear the shots came from the grassy noel!


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *An MP Slowly Ran Away From Us When We Asked About Her Fundraising Off A Dead Soldier*
> 
> _n an odd and painfully awkward interview, Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant refused to answer questions about her invoking a dead soldier to peddle Easter hams._
> 
> As first reported by the CBC, Gallant sent out a fundraising email entitled “TERRORISTS IN OUR MIDSTS” that prominently features Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as “A Hero Forever in our Hearts.”
> 
> Cirillo was murdered in 2014 at the National War Memorial as part of the attack on Parliament by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau.
> 
> The email links to a fundraising page where readers are offered an Easter ham if they donate to the Conservative party.​
> (BuzzFeed)


It doesn't surprise me. Gallant is a mean spirited idiot, I don't know how she got re-elected.


----------



## screature

MacGuiver said:


> Stop the presses! An MP running away for a reporter! Like thats never happened before.
> 
> Further to this story. The mailing was not about selling hams. It was a fundraiser for the riding association and they made the mistake of offering an incentive. A ham. The headlines wouldn't be quite as sexy without the ham angle. It would have read, Cirillo image used in fundraiser appeal by Conservative MP". That said, the appeal was looking for support to help fight the stupidity of the Liberals insisting people that plot to attack our country and kill Canadians in acts of terror (like the Cirillo case) retain their Canadian citizenship and the benefits that entails. I find the idea of terrorists retaining citizenship far more offensive than the use of the Cirillo image to campaign against it.
> 
> This is what it looks like when an MP runs from a reporter.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-dr160f59s


Well that doesn't surprise me either. Arrogance and rudeness at its best. His father was infamous for it and now he is doing the same... seems to run in the family.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I* do recall learning that the police tape and barricades were already at the memorial but not in place before the shooting. Also the video of the four witnesses racing to their marks, waiting a few seconds for the car to arrive, then running in feigned terror when the car door opened. A whole lot of things make this appear more like a staged attack rather than the genuine article!
> 
> Sad that Cirillo had to lose his life to advance the Con cause.*


You are out of your f**king mind. No apologies based on that post.

Seek help, get back on your meds and take off the tin foil hat.


----------



## fjnmusic

No matter what, using Cirillo's death for a blatantly partisan fundraising effort is beyond tacky. There's a reason the Conservatives were voted out, and it ain't just Harper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MacGuiver

fjnmusic said:


> No matter what, using Cirillo's death for a blatantly partisan fundraising effort is beyond tacky. There's a reason the Conservatives were voted out, and it ain't just Harper.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like the time the Syrian kid washed up on the beach and the Liberals blamed Harper?


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You are out of your f**king mind. No apologies based on that post.
> 
> Seek help, get back on your meds and take off the tin foil hat.


The attack would indicate I must have hit the nail flush on the head. Good to have my thoughts so dramatically confirmed.

That said I am pretty sure King Harpo was not alerted in advance or he would not have dove into the broom closet to defend his brethren from phantom terrorists. Actually he would not have been in the Parliament buildings at all!


----------



## CubaMark

MacGuiver said:


> I hear the shots came from the grassy noel!


Is that like when there's no snow at Christmas?


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## rgray




----------



## MacGuiver

CubaMark said:


> Is that like when there's no snow at Christmas?


LOL

That was a "grassy knoll". Me not spell good dare.


----------



## CubaMark

MacGuiver said:


> LOL
> 
> That was a "grassy knoll". Me not spell good dare.


 :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Yep, sums it up nicely.


----------



## CubaMark

Ugh. So incredibly disappointing that Bains feels that this was an "honour". Should have grabbed this geriatric war criminal and hauled his ass to The Hague War Crimes Tribunal.


----------



## Macfury

Yo, Navdeep!


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> No matter what, *using Cirillo's death for a blatantly partisan fundraising effort is beyond tacky. There's a reason the Conservatives were voted out, and it ain't just Harper.*


Yes it was and no it is not. The MP in question was not voted out so your logic is flawed. As I said before Cheryl Gallant is an idiot and just one MP and does not reflect all Conservatives in the least.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The attack would indicate I must have hit the nail flush on the head. Good to have my thoughts so dramatically confirmed.
> 
> That said I am pretty sure King Harpo was not alerted in advance or he would not have dove into the broom closet to defend his brethren from phantom terrorists. Actually he would not have been in the Parliament buildings at all!


You really should have changed your signature by now, it is really out of date as neither of those Bills exist now...

There was no attack. Your post was simply ridiculous and indicative of a troubled mind and you should seek help.

Your "analysis" of my post is just further indication of how paranoid you are:



> par·a·noi·a
> ˌperəˈnoiə/
> noun
> noun: paranoia
> 
> a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
> 
> Origin
> early 19th century: modern Latin, from Greek, from paranoos ‘distracted,’ from para ‘irregular’ + noos ‘mind.’


For help you should begin with this:

Paranoia and Delusional Disorders



> *What is Paranoia?*
> 
> Paranoia involves intense anxious or fearful feelings and thoughts often related to persecution, threat, or conspiracy. Paranoia occurs in many mental disorders, but is most often present in psychotic disorders. Paranoia can become delusions, when irrational thoughts and beliefs become so fixed that nothing (including contrary evidence) can convince a person that what they think or feel is not true. When a person has paranoia or delusions, but no other symptoms (like hearing or seeing things that aren't there), they might have what is called a delusional disorder. Because only thoughts are impacted, a person with delusional disorder can usually work and function in everyday life, however, their lives may be limited and isolated.
> *
> Symptoms of Paranoia:*
> 
> Symptoms of paranoia and delusional disorders include intense and irrational mistrust or suspicion, which can bring on sense of fear, anger, and betrayal. Some identifiable beliefs and behaviors of individuals with symptoms of paranoia include mistrust, hypervigilence, difficulty with forgiveness, defensive attitude in response to imagined criticism, preoccupation with hidden motives, fear of being deceived or taken advantage of, inability to relax, or are argumentative.
> *
> What Causes Paranoia?*
> 
> The cause of paranoia is a breakdown of various mental and emotional functions involving reasoning and assigned meanings. The reasons for these breakdowns are varied and uncertain. Some symptoms of paranoia relate to repressed, denied or projected feelings. Often, paranoid thoughts and feelings are related to events and relationships in a person's life, thereby increasing isolation and difficulty with getting help.
> 
> *Treatment of Paranoia*
> 
> Treatment of paranoia is usually via medication and cognitive behavioral therapy. The most important element in treating paranoia and delusional disorder, is building a trusting and collaborative relationship to reduce the impact of irrational fearful thoughts and improving social skills. It can be difficult to treat a person with paranoia since symptoms result in increased irritability, emotionally guardedness, and possible hostility. Often times, progress on paranoid delusions and especially delusional disorder is slow. Regardless of how slow the process, recovery and reconnection is possible.
> 
> *Other Resources*
> 
> American Psychiatric Association
> 1000 Wilson Blvd, Suite 1825
> Arlington, VA 22209-3901
> Phone Number: (703) 907-7300
> Email Address: [email protected]
> Website URL: Home â”‚ psychiatry.org
> 
> National Institute of Mental Health Public Information and Communications Branch
> 6001 Executive Blvd, Room 8184, MSC 9663
> Bethesda, MD 20892
> Phone Number: (866-615-6464)
> Website URL: NIMH » Home
> 
> Information compiled from:
> “Mental Health Letter-Paranoia and Paranoid Disorders”. The Harvard Medical School Mental Health Letter. 74 Fenwood Rd, Boston MA 02115.
> and Understanding Mental Disorders, Your Guide to DSM-5, American Psychiatric Association, 2015.


----------



## MacGuiver

screature said:


> Yes it was and no it is not. The MP in question was not voted out so your logic is flawed. As I said before Cheryl Gallant is an idiot and just one MP and does not reflect all Conservatives in the least.


I'm in the area so I know the dynamic. Every conservative there would prefer a new Conservative MP. They hold their nose and vote to support the Conservative government.
That said, speaking blunders aside the area has been well served under her leadership. At least you can't point to anything in the riding thats been adversely affected by her representation. Its rural so agriculture, forestry, hunting and fishing are a large part of daily life. Gun registries, high taxes, losing land rights and environmental extremism doesn't sell well here. That leaves you with one choice. 
A leadership change would be welcomed but I'd take a fumbling Cheryl Gallant over a leftist any day.
They could do far more damage than any misspeak or photo she might print in a fundraising campaign newsletter.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> You really should have changed your signature by now, it is really out of date as neither of those Bills exist now...
> 
> There was no attack. Your post was simply ridiculous and indicative of a troubled mind and you should seek help.
> 
> Your "analysis" of my post is just further indication of how paranoid you are:
> 
> 
> 
> For help you should begin with this:
> 
> Paranoia and Delusional Disorders


I notice that rather than addressing the Barricades and police tape already being on site at the Memorial you chose to try to label me delusional.

Not so. This from the Huff Post includes a photo of Cirillo taken only minutes before his death and posted very shortly afterwards. Notice that pieces of the barricade are already there and the police tape is ready to be strung! 

Heartbreaking Photo Shows Nathan Cirillo Moments Before Shooting

Interestingly I have also seen photos shot two days earlier where neither the police tape nor the barricades are to be seen. I suspect the barricades were there as part of Operation Defiant Dragon. A joint US Canadian exercise, that paralleled the shootings in Ottawa and Montreal and took place over the same time span. 

Interesting how 9/11, London, Paris, Sandy Hook, and San Bernadino all had parallel exercises run by the spooks during or within a day of the events.

Then there was the media labeling the shooter as a radicalized Muslim while the bullets were still in the air. I wonder who fed them that tidbit?

More interesting to me is that either tox screening was not ordered on the shooter or the results were never made public. Let's speculate a bit. Suppose such a screening revealed Fentanyl, Crystal Meth or some other street drug that can send an already unstable individual over the edge. Obviously that would blow the official narrative out of the water so the powers that be would not want that known. Perhaps he was on or coming off SRIs. In that case Big Pharma would want the lid kept on and would make certain their minions obliged. Another possibility would be Scopolamine or something similar. This would be a sure fire indicator that the shooter's behaviour was manipulated by outside forces. I can see why no-one would want that made public.

Feel free to link to the tox screen results if they are out there.

That's less than half of the reasons I find the officially sanctioned story highly suspect. But it will do for now.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I notice that rather than addressing the Barricades and police tape already being on site at the Memorial you chose to try to label me delusional.
> 
> Not so. This from the Huff Post includes a photo of Cirillo taken only minutes before his death and posted very shortly afterwards. Notice that pieces of the barricade are already there and the police tape is ready to be strung!
> 
> Heartbreaking Photo Shows Nathan Cirillo Moments Before Shooting


Work begins on National War Memorial repairs | Ottawa Citizen

Construction:


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Work begins on National War Memorial repairs | Ottawa Citizen
> 
> Construction:


Except the story was from January and the barricades and tape were not there 2 days before the shooting but were there the day of!

And yes the second photo you posted was the uncropped version of the photo that appeared in HuffPo


----------



## Macfury

The work was ongoing. It's still underway.



eMacMan said:


> Except the story was from January and the barricades and tape were not there 2 days before the shooting but were there the day of!
> 
> And yes the second photo you posted was the uncropped version of the photo that appeared in HuffPo


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> The work was ongoing. It's still underway.


So you are suggesting that the Police State is so entrenched in Ottawa that police tape is used for Construction zones. Not something I have ever seen in Western Canada, but believers gotta believe!


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> So you are suggesting that the Police State is so entrenched in Ottawa that police tape is used for Construction zones. Not something I have ever seen in Western Canada, but believers gotta believe!


...and contractors gotta buy:

CAUTION CONSTRUCTION AREA Barricade Tape (SBT-1007)


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> This from the Huff Post includes a photo of Cirillo taken only minutes before his death and posted very shortly afterwards. Notice that pieces of the barricade are already there and the police tape is ready to be strung!












This photo - of Cirillo being attended-to by passer-by (and nurse) Margaret Lerhe and others, clearly has "Caution Do Not Enter" construction tape strung behind them, not the "Crime Scene" or "Police Line" yellow tape.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> This photo - of Cirillo being attended-to by passer-by (and nurse) Margaret Lerhe and others, clearly has "Caution Do Not Enter" construction tape strung behind them, not the "Crime Scene" or "Police Line" yellow tape.


You are right I was looking for the video however. Notice the soldiers arms hands are on his chest and CPR is being performed off to the side? The photo could also indicate pressure applied to a wound but then why is respiration being performed with out heart compression? Certainly not the way I was taught. 

Still the questions about the timing, it was wonderfully convenient for the spook bills the PM was introducing at the time and others that were rushed through the Senate with no pretense of review. The parallel drill, a hallmark of false flags. The media portrayal during the event of the shooter as a radicalized Muslim. The no-show tox screen, this guy was portrayed as a Muslim terrorist, so anything other than a clean tox screen would blow the official story out of the water. 

Even if you buy the official version it means Canadians are only 100 times more likely to die from a lightning bolt versus a terrorist attack. Hardly the sort of threat that would justify Bills C-51, C-24 and whatever it was that Martin's anti internet privacy bill was called when Harper finally passed it on its fourth time around.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I notice that rather than addressing the Barricades and police tape already being on site at the Memorial you chose to try to label me delusional.
> 
> Not so. This from the Huff Post includes a photo of Cirillo taken only minutes before his death and posted very shortly afterwards. Notice that pieces of the barricade are already there and the police tape is ready to be strung!
> 
> Heartbreaking Photo Shows Nathan Cirillo Moments Before Shooting
> 
> Interestingly I have also seen photos shot two days earlier where neither the police tape nor the barricades are to be seen. I suspect the barricades were there as part of Operation Defiant Dragon. A joint US Canadian exercise, that paralleled the shootings in Ottawa and Montreal and took place over the same time span.
> 
> Interesting how 9/11, London, Paris, Sandy Hook, and San Bernadino all had parallel exercises run by the spooks during or within a day of the events.
> 
> Then there was the media labeling the shooter as a radicalized Muslim while the bullets were still in the air. I wonder who fed them that tidbit?
> 
> More interesting to me is that either tox screening was not ordered on the shooter or the results were never made public. Let's speculate a bit. Suppose such a screening revealed Fentanyl, Crystal Meth or some other street drug that can send an already unstable individual over the edge. Obviously that would blow the official narrative out of the water so the powers that be would not want that known. Perhaps he was on or coming off SRIs. In that case Big Pharma would want the lid kept on and would make certain their minions obliged. Another possibility would be Scopolamine or something similar. This would be a sure fire indicator that the shooter's behaviour was manipulated by outside forces. I can see why no-one would want that made public.
> 
> Feel free to link to the tox screen results if they are out there.
> 
> That's less than half of the reasons I find the officially sanctioned story highly suspect. But it will do for now.


Once again, seek help.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> This photo - of Cirillo being attended-to by passer-by (and nurse) Margaret Lerhe and others, clearly has "Caution Do Not Enter" construction tape strung behind them, not the "Crime Scene" or "Police Line" yellow tape.


Jesus Christ man, now you, an educated man are going to agree with the resident lunatic or give credence to his paranoid ramblings?!!!

The Tape is *Yellow*!!! What makes you think that is "construction" tape??? There are plenty of tapes out there... how do you know that "Caution Do Not Enter" is simply used for construction sites and noting else??? I'll tell you... you don't!

So are you suggesting that Nathan Cirillo's murder was planned by the government or an arm of the government? If so you are as misguided as he is.

It simply astounds me.

So how was Cirillo involved in the plot so that he was willingly engaged when he knew that it would lead to his death? What was his motivation or the government's?

Try and keep it real based on evidence and not on paranoia and conspiracy theory.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Jesus Christ man, now you, an educated man are going to agree with the resident lunatic or give credence to his paranoid ramblings?!!!
> 
> The Tape is *Yellow*!!! What makes you think that is "construction" tape??? There are plenty of tapes out there... how do you know that "Caution Do Not Enter" is simply used for construction sites and noting else??? I'll tell you... you don't!


screature, from your own post above, I understand that this isn't a good time for you....
so perhaps ehMac isn't the place for you at the moment.

I am *not* in any way shape or form agreeing with eMacMan. In fact, I am disagreeing with him. He said the tape was police tape. I say it's construction tape.

I think Harper was capable of doing many things, but I don't think the Cirillo murder is among them. I do think there are unanswered questions about that day (has the issue of multiple reported shooters ever been cleared up?). 

In any case, you're off base here. It's chill-out time, amigo.


----------



## SINC

Yep, nails it . . .


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Jesus Christ man, now you, an educated man are going to agree with the resident lunatic or give credence to his paranoid ramblings?!!!
> 
> The Tape is *Yellow*!!! What makes you think that is "construction" tape??? There are plenty of tapes out there... how do you know that "Caution Do Not Enter" is simply used for construction sites and noting else??? I'll tell you... you don't!
> 
> So are you suggesting that Nathan Cirillo's murder was planned by the government or an arm of the government? If so you are as misguided as he is.
> 
> It simply astounds me.
> 
> So how was Cirillo involved in the plot so that he was willingly engaged when he knew that it would lead to his death? What was his motivation or the government's?
> 
> Try and keep it real based on evidence and not on paranoia and conspiracy theory.


Try to pay attention. Tape has been resolved or otherwise. Still strange it showed up the day of the tragedy. 

Why the BS implication that I somehow claim Cirillo was involved? He was the victim! 

The still as yet unseen tox screen holds the key. 
Crystal Meth or Fentanyl = Deranged gunman = Official story of radicalized gunman kaputt
SRIs, or SRI withdrawal = Deranged gunman = Official story of radicalized gunman kaputt
Scopolamine or similar = CIA and/orFBI and/or CSEC involvment = False Flag = Official story of radicalized gunman kaputt
Clean = Official version of radicalized Muslim gunman pretty much confirmed.

Wonder why the tox screen was either never done or never released. Again feel free to post a link to the results of the shooters postmortem tox screen.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yep, nails it . . .



Pretty ignorant cartoon. Citizenship is not a get of jail free card. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Try to pay attention. Tape has been resolved or otherwise. Still strange it showed up the day of the tragedy.
> 
> Why the BS implication that I somehow claim Cirillo was involved? He was the victim!
> 
> The still as yet unseen tox screen holds the key.
> Crystal Meth or Fentanyl = Deranged gunman = Official story of radicalized gunman kaputt
> SRIs, or SRI withdrawal = Deranged gunman = Official story of radicalized gunman kaputt
> Scopolamine or similar = CIA and/orFBI and/or CSEC involvment = False Flag = Official story of radicalized gunman kaputt
> Clean = Official version of radicalized Muslim gunman pretty much confirmed.
> 
> Wonder why the tox screen was either never done or never released. Again feel free to post a link to the results of the shooters postmortem tox screen.



Actually your tax screen theory makes sense. This guy did not seem like part of a wider conspiracy, except perhaps in his own mind. He had never been to Syria and was stopped at the border and denied permission to leave the country. He was a born and bred Canadian with delusions of grandeur. That makes him more of a lone gunman psychotic murderer than a terrorist. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> Pretty ignorant cartoon. Citizenship is not a get of jail free card.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are circumstances where citizenship perhaps should be revoked. Specifically if someone obtained citizenship under false pretenses. That is by lying on the citizenship application, when telling the truth would have resulted in citizenship denial. 

However that reversal should only be done through the judicial branch, never via Cabinet Minister's decree. The odds of finding a Cabinet Minister honest and objective enough to wield that power are virtually zero. 

If someone legitimately becomes a Canadian Citizen, then does something either morally or politically reprehensible, they do so as a Canadian Citizen. Their actions no more represent Canada or Canadian Values than do the actions of the Mounties post Mayorthorpe.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


>


Interesting bedfellows ............


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> screature, from your own post above, I understand that this isn't a good time for you....
> so perhaps ehMac isn't the place for you at the moment.
> 
> I am *not* in any way shape or form agreeing with eMacMan. In fact, I am disagreeing with him. He said the tape was police tape. I say it's construction tape.
> 
> I think Harper was capable of doing many things, but I don't think the Cirillo murder is among them. I do think there are unanswered questions about that day (has the issue of multiple reported shooters ever been cleared up?).
> 
> In any case, you're off base here. It's chill-out time, amigo.


Ok, sorry Mark, I misunderstood your post.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Actually your tax screen theory makes sense. This guy did not seem like part of a wider conspiracy, except perhaps in his own mind. He had never been to Syria and was stopped at the border and denied permission to leave the country. *He was a born and bred Canadian with delusions of grandeur. That makes him more of a lone gunman psychotic murderer than a terrorist.
> *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes and no, I think he was both. Just because he was a born and bred Canadian and a lone gunman psychotic murderer, does not mean that he was not also a terrorist. True he probably was not radicalized directly by ISIS but he certainly had access to their propaganda of terror and became self-radicalized.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Yes and no, I think he was both. Just because he was a born and bred Canadian and a lone gunman psychotic murderer, does not mean that he was not also a terrorist. True he probably was not radicalized directly by ISIS but he certainly had access to their propaganda of terror and became self-radicalized.


If he was indeed a Muslim then the tox screen would be clean. Probably the reason it either was not done or the results concealed.

I doubt that the powers that be valued truth enough to risk their narrative.


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## eMacMan

Some slight progress on the "No-Fly List" fiasco. Progress if you can call adding another layer of red tape progress. 

A much better idea would be a simple appeal process that would allow those who are but should not be on the list to get their names removed in an expeditious manner. 
U.S., Canada move to clear up confusion over no-fly lists, move ahead with pre-clearance | National Post

Supposedly created to hinder terrorists, that list is used mainly to punish those who may disagree with which ever bum(s) hold the power strings. Of course any real terrorist threat would never be on the list as the spooks keeping tabs on them would not want to tip their hand.


----------



## eMacMan

> “*The Canada Revenue Agency quietly turned 155,000 banking records over to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service during last fall’s election, without waiting for an assessment from Canada’s Privacy Commissioner or the outcome of a court challenge to the controversial move.*


More here: The Isaac Brock Society | March 16 2016 Ipolitics.ca on Canadian Government and its FATCA Compliance Law: Lynne Swanson says â€œI'm furious. I feel totally betrayedâ€�

It is entirely possible that you received a letter from your bank or investment firm demanding that you fill in a W8 or W9 form. If you did not respond to that letter it is more than possible that your personal account information was passed along to the CRA > IRS > FinCEN, and now resides in an electronic database generally reserved for drug dealers and money launderers. The only privacy guarantee is that FinCEN does not consider this information confidential.

If you did fill in a W8, giving a US Taxpayer Identification Number, which perhaps relates to a summer cottage you own south of the border, your data is similarly compromised.

The only appropriate response to a W8 demand is to talk to the branch manager and inform them that you are not an American, nor are you a Canadian whose identity has been hijacked by the IRS for tax purposes. Prepare a short letter for the manager to sign acknowledging that you have so informed them.

If you think your account information may have been compromised again talk to the manager. Insist on being informed if your personal account data was turned over to the CRA under FATCA agreements. Remember nobody was obligated to inform you before that data was turned over. If your account information was indeed compromised inform the manager that you are not tainted by American blood, and get them to sign a letter stating that they understand you are not tainted. Then insist all account numbers be changed to protect your privacy rights. Also insist this be done at no cost to you. Finally clearly inform the manager that you will sue the ass off his company if this ever happens again.


----------



## Dr.G.

"If so clearly inform them that you are not tainted by American blood ...." Tainted?????


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...2/the-real-winner-of-super-tuesday-is-canada/

Welcome to the Promised Land. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> "If so clearly inform them that you are not tainted by American blood ...." Tainted?????


In my small community, I personally know Canadians with Russian, Polish, Italian, Scottish, English, Irish, Hungarian, Portuguese, Swiss, German, Ukrainian and American backgrounds. Only the Americans have had to shed their birth citizenship to preserve their financial sanity. Sadly I have to call that tainted.

FWIW my Scottish neighbour who came to Canada in the late '60s is the only one whose English is really difficult to understand. The oldest Italians somawhata so but not nearly as bad as the Scot.


----------



## FeXL

Liberals & PQ arrested.

Two former Quebec cabinet ministers among seven arrested in sweeping corruption probe



> Former Quebec deputy premier Nathalie Normandeau and six other people involved in politics and government contracts have been arrested on 13 charges that include fraud on government, corruption and abuse of trust, the head of Quebec’s permanent anti-corruption squad has confirmed.


Well, it's a start...

I know...b-b-b-b-but...DUFFY!!!


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> You are right I was looking for the video however. Notice the soldiers arms hands are on his chest and CPR is being performed off to the side? The photo could also indicate pressure applied to a wound but then why is respiration being performed with out heart compression? Certainly not the way I was taught.
> 
> Still the questions about the timing, it was wonderfully convenient for the spook bills the PM was introducing at the time and others that were rushed through the Senate with no pretense of review. The parallel drill, a hallmark of false flags. The media portrayal during the event of the shooter as a radicalized Muslim. T*he no-show tox screen, this guy was portrayed as a Muslim terrorist, so anything other than a clean tox screen would blow the official story out of the water. *
> 
> Even if you buy the official version it means Canadians are only 100 times more likely to die from a lightning bolt versus a terrorist attack. Hardly the sort of threat that would justify Bills C-51, C-24 and whatever it was that Martin's anti internet privacy bill was called when Harper finally passed it on its fourth time around.


Time to change you sig tinFoilMan.

Just in case you forgot the government had a Majority, they did not need to engage in murder to get the Bills passed. There simply was no need for it, due to the majority the Bills would have passed anyway.

So much for your ridiculous argument. 

And no just because you are on drugs does not mean that you are not a terrorist, the two are not mutually exclusive. Drugs of one form or another have been used since time immemorial to bolster "courage"/a sense of invulnerability and reduce fear among fighters around the world.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Time to change you sig tinFoilMan.
> 
> Just in case you forgot the government had a Majority, they did not need to engage in murder to get the Bills passed. There simply was no need for it, due to the majority the Bills would have passed anyway.
> 
> So much for your ridiculous argument.
> 
> And no just because you are on drugs does not mean that you are not a terrorist, the two are not mutually exclusive. Drugs of one form or another have been used since time immemorial to bolster "courage"/a sense of invulnerability and reduce fear among fighters around the world.


Certainly explains why the bums did not even read any of the submissions by those directly impacted by that ConMeißter surrender of Canadian Sovereignty to the IRS Übermeißters.

Had any of the concerned ministers been able to read, they would, at the very least, have amended the enabling legislation to force both financial institutions and the CRA to inform impacted Canadian Citizens before private account information was transferred into an electronic data base controlled by a foreign entity.

As it is Canadian Citizens with zero US ties may well have had their private account information transferred to the CRA, then onto the IRS, and stored in a data base primarily intended to track drug lords and money launderers. FinCEN the criminal enforcement/extortion branch of the IRS makes it quite clear that information can be shared with any government organization any where in the world.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Certainly explains why the bums did not even read any of the submissions by those directly impacted by that ConMeißter surrender of Canadian Sovereignty to the IRS Übermeißters.
> 
> Had any of the concerned ministers been able to read, they would, at the very least, have amended the enabling legislation to force both financial institutions and the CRA to inform impacted Canadian Citizens before private account information was transferred into an electronic data base controlled by a foreign entity.
> 
> As it is Canadian Citizens with zero US ties may well have had their private account information transferred to the CRA, then onto the IRS, and stored in a data base primarily intended to track drug lords and money launderers. FinCEN the criminal enforcement/extortion branch of the IRS makes it quite clear that information can be shared with any government organization any where in the world.


Thanks for the red herring, I think we will have it for dinner.


----------



## Dr.G.

Trudeau Senate appointees include aboriginal judge, Paralympian, ex-NDPer, journalist - Politics - CBC News

Well, goodbye to the tradition of appointing political hacks to the Canadian Senate. While I would like to see it abolished, which is not going to happen, at least these appointees are diverse and not Liberal insiders.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Trudeau Senate appointees include aboriginal judge, Paralympian, ex-NDPer, journalist - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Well, goodbye to the tradition of appointing political hacks to the Canadian Senate. While I would like to see it abolished, which is not going to happen, at least these appointees are diverse and not Liberal insiders.


Don't kid yourself. They were appointed because they would vote a certain way.

It is politics as usual, just thinly disguised.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Don't kid yourself. They were appointed because they would vote a certain way.
> 
> 
> 
> It is politics as usual, just thinly disguised.



Good lord. There were something like 22 vacancies left open by Mr. Harper. They need to be filled by somebody, or the Prime Minister wouldn't be doing his job. All regions of the country deserve representation. Would you care to spell out the exact political affiliation of the these most recent appointees so the rest of us hacks can understand it too? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're just speaking out of your arse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rgray

Why is Canada also still doing business with these barbarians??? 








Saudi Arabia brutality against its people revealed in video | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Macfury

Because people like Trudeau and Notley and Obama don't really believe in energy independence.



rgray said:


> Why is Canada also still doing business with these barbarians???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saudi Arabia brutality against its people revealed in video | Daily Mail Online


----------



## SINC

Sometimes the truth hurts.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Good lord. There were something like 22 vacancies left open by Mr. Harper. They need to be filled by somebody, or the Prime Minister wouldn't be doing his job. All regions of the country deserve representation. Would you care to spell out the exact political affiliation of the these most recent appointees so the rest of us hacks can understand it too? Otherwise, *I'm going to assume you're just speaking out of your arse*.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice language. It aint' rocket science he is appointing people friendly to his agenda, that much is obvious to anyone, that is how Senate appointments are made. Is this really news to you? it is not about political "affiliations" but about political proclivities. If you do not understand that you are naive in the extreme.

A PM appoints Senators who will vote in favour of the Government's agenda cut and dry. If you think otherwise you are misguided and do not understand what Parliament is all about... I guess the intelligence and experience of my arse is greater than that of your brain if you think otherwise.

Haters are going to hate and you always have a way to make it personal and yet you seem to think you are like white on rice.


----------



## SINC

Like father, like son?

Pierre Trudeau's disastrous record is finally laid out for all to see


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Nice language. It aint' rocket science he is appointing people friendly to his agenda, that much is obvious to anyone, that is how Senate appointments are made. Is this really news to you? it is not about political "affiliations" but about political proclivities. If you do not understand that you are naive in the extreme.
> 
> 
> 
> A PM appoints Senators who will vote in favour of the Government's agenda cut and dry. If you think otherwise you are misguided and do not understand what Parliament is all about... I guess the intelligence and experience of my arse is greater than that of your brain if you think otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> Haters are going to hate and you always have a way to make it personal and yet you seem to think you are like white on rice.



Nice language. You dare criticize my comments with that little assoholic diatribe? You're not worth the effort.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Like father, like son?
> 
> 
> 
> Pierre Trudeau's disastrous record is finally laid out for all to see



May 24, 2013? You're about three years out of date with that article, buddy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> May 24, 2013? You're about three years out of date with that article, buddy.


The facts in that publication are as valid today as they were then. It exposes one Trudeau for who he was and the damage he did and is very likely a precursor to what his son will do to us all.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> The facts in that publication are as valid today as they were then. It exposes one Trudeau for who he was and the damage he did and is very likely a precursor to what his son will do to us all.



Weak. That would be like condemning Stephen Harper's son for what he will do ten years from now because his father F-ed things up when he was Prime Minister. It's a bad argument. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Weak. That would be like condemning Stephen Harper's son for what he will do ten years from now because his father F-ed things up when he was Prime Minister. It's a bad argument.


No, not at all. More proven theory like the two recent father son shining examples in North Korea. Like father, like son in that kind of way.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> No, not at all. More proven theory like the two recent father son shining examples in North Korea. Like father, like son in that kind of way.



They are completely different people, different families, in different countries. Are your thoughts and motivations exactly the same as your father's were? Or your son's? Do people have no freedom to make their own choices? 

Your argument falls apart with even the most basic scrutiny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> They are completely different people, different families, in different countries. Are your thoughts and motivations exactly the same as your father's were? Or your son's? Do people have no freedom to make their own choices?
> 
> Your argument falls apart with even the most basic scrutiny.


Yep two different people operating in two different ways. The second will screw up Canada just like the first though.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Yep two different people operating in two different ways. The second will screw up Canada just like the first though.



Au contraire, mon ami. Pierre was one of the finest statesmen we've ever had. Already Justin has made a much more favourable impression on our neighbors to the south and around the world than Little Stephen did in the past ten years. You miss it because you're not open to seeing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Au contraire, mon ami. Pierre was one of the finest statesmen we've ever had. Already Justin has made a much more favourable impression on our neighbors to the south and around the world than Little Stephen did in the past ten years. You miss it because you're not open to seeing it.


Beats drinking the cool aid. Trudeau sr was the worst pm ever. I know. I lived through it and it cost me a house.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Beats drinking the cool aid. Trudeau sr was the worst pm ever. I know. I lived through it and it cost me a house.



Trudeau cost you a house. Hyperbole much? I'd be interested to learn how that happened.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Agreed, SINC--I have never sen a PM a bad as Pierre Trudeau--although this neophyte is already giving him a run for his money.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Agreed, SINC--I have never sen a PM a bad as Pierre Trudeau--although this neophyte is already giving him a run for his money.


Trudeau Sr did the most damage by far.

Jr does seem to want to try to step into daddy's shoes.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> Trudeau cost you a house. Hyperbole much? I'd be interested to learn how that happened.


Guess the teacher needs a history lesson? You can put your hyperbole comment where the sun doesn't shine.

When Trudeau Sr's actions against Canada and the west came into effect, mortgage rates increased to double digit interest and made the payments so steep I could no longer afford them after the mortgage we assumed at a reasonable rate came due 14 months later. Add to that when I had to sell to get out from under, (bought in fall 80, sold in spring 82) the value of our home fell by $40,000 (in 1982 dollars) in a single year and we had to eat that loss. Took us eight long years to recover enough to the point we could afford a home again.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> Guess the teacher needs a history lesson? You can put your hyperbole comment where the sun doesn't shine.
> 
> When Trudeau Sr's actions against Canada and the west came into effect, mortgage rates increased to double digit interest and made the payments so steep I could no longer afford them after the mortgage we assumed at a reasonable rate came due 14 months later. Add to that when I had to sell to get out from under, (bought in fall 80, sold in spring 82) the value of our home fell by $40,000 (in 1982 dollars) in a single year and we had to eat that loss. Took us eight long years to recover enough to the point we could afford a home again.


Yup. Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. Trudeau Jr is repeating most of his daddy's mistakes.

The worst part is, he's not just undoing all the progress Canada made in the last 10 years, he's making a mockery of everything that all of the prime ministers since Pierre did to right the ship too -- including the Liberal ones.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Guess the teacher needs a history lesson? You can put your hyperbole comment where the sun doesn't shine.
> 
> 
> 
> When Trudeau Sr's actions against Canada and the west came into effect, mortgage rates increased to double digit interest and made the payments so steep I could no longer afford them after the mortgage we assumed at a reasonable rate came due 14 months later. Add to that when I had to sell to get out from under, (bought in fall 80, sold in spring 82) the value of our home fell by $40,000 (in 1982 dollars) in a single year and we had to eat that loss. Took us eight long years to recover enough to the point we could afford a home again.



So Trudeau controlled the interest rates?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> So Trudeau controlled the interest rates?


He instituted the NEP which caused interest rates to skyrocket and housing prices to crash. You really ought to educate yourself on the NEP and the devastation it caused in Alberta.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> He instituted the NEP which caused interest rates to skyrocket and housing prices to crash. You really ought to educate yourself on the NEP and the devastation it caused in Alberta.


Since I was earning 15% on a savings account in the US in 1980, it seems a bit far out to try to blame Trudeau for the interest rates. The banksters saw their chance and took full advantage of it.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> He instituted the NEP which caused interest rates to skyrocket and housing prices to crash. You really ought to educate yourself on the NEP and the devastation it caused in Alberta.


Let's be clear here, the NEP did not cause the housing crash nationally, which is what counts. The 21% interest rates that some of us experienced was due to the laxing of home financing requirements....similar to the bubble sanctioned by our brother south of the border. Here in Ontario you had whole subdivisions bought on $99 down and subsidized mortgages. When the mortgages came up for renewal everyone tried to sell their homes to no avail, so they walked away......sound familiar....2008. I was one of those facing 23% rates, but with 6 months to go the government announced an election.....by the time my mortgage was due it was back to the 12% we signed for.


----------



## CubaMark

*Alberta MP Jim Hillyer found dead in Ottawa office*








_Alberta MP Jim Hillyer has died in Ottawa.

The Conservative, who represented the riding of Medicine Hat–Cardston–Warner, complained Tuesday of feeling ill. He was found in his office early Wednesday morning.

Sources told CBC News his family contacted Parliament Hill security when they were unable to reach him.

In a statement, interim Conservative Leader Rona Ambrose said she was deeply saddened to learn of his death.

"Jim was a valued and hardworking member of the Conservative team, and a passionate advocate for those he represented," the statement said.

* * *​
Hillyer was first elected in 2011 and was re-elected in 2015 with 69 per cent of the vote.

He previously survived a battle with leukemia in 2003.

Hillyer is survived by his wife Livi. The couple has four children: London, Taylor, Nation and Asia. 

He was 41._​
(CBC)


----------



## Rps

Too young! Sad!


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Nice language. You dare criticize my comments with that little *assoholic diatribe*? You're not worth the effort.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You were the one to use the word arse in your post not to mention, you started with the use of the word asshole a long time ago. It seems you can dish it out but can't take it when it is directed at you.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Alberta MP Jim Hillyer found dead in Ottawa office*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Alberta MP Jim Hillyer has died in Ottawa.
> 
> The Conservative, who represented the riding of Medicine Hat–Cardston–Warner, complained Tuesday of feeling ill. He was found in his office early Wednesday morning.
> 
> Sources told CBC News his family contacted Parliament Hill security when they were unable to reach him.
> 
> In a statement, interim Conservative Leader Rona Ambrose said she was deeply saddened to learn of his death.
> 
> "Jim was a valued and hardworking member of the Conservative team, and a passionate advocate for those he represented," the statement said.
> 
> * * *​
> Hillyer was first elected in 2011 and was re-elected in 2015 with 69 per cent of the vote.
> 
> He previously survived a battle with leukemia in 2003.
> 
> Hillyer is survived by his wife Livi. The couple has four children: London, Taylor, Nation and Asia.
> 
> He was 41._​
> (CBC)





Rps said:


> Too young! Sad!


Agreed. The long hours and life style of MPs take a great toll on their health. RIP Mr. Hillyer and my condolences to his family and friends.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Beats drinking the cool aid. Trudeau sr was the worst pm ever. I know. I lived through it and it cost me a house.





Macfury said:


> Agreed, SINC--I have never sen a PM a bad as Pierre Trudeau--although this neophyte is already giving him a run for his money.


Agreed 100%. He had the dubious distinction of alienating the West and Quebec at the same time.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Let's be clear here, the NEP did not cause the housing crash nationally, which is what counts. The 21% interest rates that some of us experienced was due to the laxing of home financing requirements....similar to the bubble sanctioned by our brother south of the border. Here in Ontario you had whole subdivisions bought on $99 down and subsidized mortgages. When the mortgages came up for renewal everyone tried to sell their homes to no avail, so they walked away......sound familiar....2008. I was one of those facing 23% rates, but with 6 months to go the government announced an election.....by the time my mortgage was due it was back to the 12% we signed for.


I completely disagree. You have not an inkling of proof that it did not. I lived through the grief it caused here in Alberta and comparing what took place in Ontario in no way offers any insight to the Alberta situation. Changes to the economy cannot be judged without including external policies affecting it that fold into the overall picture or for that matter the price of housing. Further as anyone who knows the housing market will tell you, there are huge regional swings in housing prices even to this day that are caused by factors which may seem unrelated. The NEP was a death knell for the west in general and Alberta in particular.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Since I was earning 15% on a savings account in the US in 1980, it seems a bit far out to try to blame Trudeau for the interest rates. The banksters saw their chance and took full advantage of it.



I would certainly more inclined to credit/blame the banks for interest rates over the Prime Minister.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> You were the one to use the word arse in your post not to mention, you started with the use of the word asshole a long time ago. It seems you can dish it out but can't take it when it is directed at you.



More hypocrisy. Ho hum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I would certainly more inclined to credit/blame the banks for interest rates over the Prime Minister.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it was not for the policy of the NEP interest rates would not have been what they were. The Government does not set interest rates but they set the environment agenda that interest rates are based on. Once again you fail to understand the very basics of economics 101.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I would certainly more inclined to credit/blame the banks for interest rates over the Prime Minister.


Bank's rates are pegged to those set by the Bank of Canada.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> More hypocrisy. Ho hum.


Really? Check the record!

At any rate:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Bank's rates are pegged to those set by the Bank of Canada.


But the Bank of Canada set those rates based on international rates and the projections of the GDP of Canada and the fiscal policy of Canada, so the the Government of the day is involved when it comes to setting the interest rate. There is no doubt.

It is not so simple that the Bank of Canada sets the interest rate independently of Government policy, the two are intertwined.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> But the Bank of Canada set those rates based on international rates and the projections of the GDP of Canada and the fiscal policy of Canada, so the the Government of the day is involved when it comes to setting the interest rate. There is no doubt.
> 
> It is not so simple that the Bank of Canada sets the interest rate independently of Government policy, the two are intertwined.


Understood--but the notion that the banks were independently setting 20% interest rates independent of the federal government/BoC is out to lunch.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, I'm not interested in a peeing contest so don't take offence by this, I have 6 friend who lost their homes during that time period along with many many others ( and it sounds like you were included in those totals ). More than the NEP, also remember the result of the elections after, the market awash with insecure mortgages caused the most damage. We can agree to disagree here, and I have family who lived in Alberta during that period so I do have some insight. Alberta has always been up and down, much like Ontario.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, I'm not interested in a peeing contest so don't take offence by this, I have 6 friend who lost their homes during that time period along with many many others ( and it sounds like you were included in those totals ). More than the NEP, also remember the result of the elections after, the market awash with insecure mortgages caused the most damage. We can agree to disagree here, and I have family who lived in Alberta during that period so I do have some insight. Alberta has always been up and down, much like Ontario.


I did not, nor will not ever take offense with your views Rps. But I stand firmly behind my opinion that the NEP did have a major affect on the country's economy and part of that economy are interest rates.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Understood--but the notion that the banks were independently setting 20% interest rates independent of the federal government/BoC is out to lunch.


Agreed, I don't know where I suggested that.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Agreed, I don't know where I suggested that.


You did not screature. fjn, you did.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You did not screature. fjn, you did.



You want to explain what it is that you think I said? All I remember saying is that Prime Minister Trudeau did not set the bank rate. He didn't then and junior isn't now either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You want to explain what it is that you think I said? All I remember saying is that Prime Minister Trudeau did not set the bank rate. He didn't then and junior isn't now either.


You said the banks were to blame for the interest rate.


----------



## fjnmusic

fjnmusic said:


> I would certainly more inclined to credit/blame the banks for interest rates over the Prime Minister.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I believe this is what I said. Verbatim. To add to this, I would be more inclined to credit/blame the world economy over both the banks and the Prime Minister, though I believe the latter has the least amount of influence. Economics is not simply who is in power, but rather is a complex web of several interdependent factors that determine things like interest rates. Canada's lending rate for example has been about as low as it can get without going into the negatives for many years now, but if it is raised too quickly, something that needs to be done at some point, then too many people may end up defaulting on their mortgages, which is the banks' bread and butter. Canada does not wish to see the economic crisis that befell our American neighbors about eight or nine years ago. We can hope to wait it out, but it's not like times are great now, especially in the oil and gas industry.

Does that make things any clearer for you? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

The banks have far less influence than the PM.



fjnmusic said:


> I believe this is what I said. Verbatim. To add to this, I would be more inclined to credit/blame the world economy over both the banks and the Prime Minister, though I believe the latter has the least amount of influence. Economics is not simply who is in power, but rather is a complex web of several interdependent factors that determine things like interest rates. Canada's lending rate for example has been about as low as it can get without going into the negatives for many years now, but if it is raised too quickly, something that needs to be done at some point, then too many people may end up defaulting on their mortgages, which is the banks' bread and butter. Canada does not wish to see the economic crisis that befell our American neighbors about eight or nine years ago. We can hope to wait it out, but it's not like times are great now, especially in the oil and gas industry.
> 
> Does that make things any clearer for you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> The banks have far less influence than the PM.



Perhaps you can explain why you believe this is so. So far it is just your assertion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

It isn't an assertion, it is basic economics. Their rates are pegged to the Bank of Canada rate with only a small leeway for independent action. Although the BoC is independent, it often needs to set rates to balance the economy against government policy. So while the PM can set policy that will change BoC rates, the banks can not change them beyond a narrow scope.

It


fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps you can explain why you believe this is so. So far it is just your assertion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It isn't an assertion, it is basic economics. Their rates are pegged to the Bank of Canada rate with only a small leeway for independent action. Although the BoC is independent, it often needs to set rates to balance the economy against government policy. So while the PM can set policy that will change BoC rates, the banks can not change them beyond a narrow scope.
> 
> 
> 
> It



So you still haven't explained how the PM is able to set or change the bank rates. Magic?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> It isn't an assertion, it is basic economics. Their rates are pegged to the Bank of Canada rate with only a small leeway for independent action. Although the BoC is independent, it often needs to set rates to balance the economy against government policy. *So while the PM can set policy that will change BoC rates, the banks can not change them beyond a narrow scope.*
> 
> It





fjnmusic said:


> So you still haven't explained how the PM is able to set or change the bank rates. Magic?


He most certainly did. I put it in bold in case you missed it. The PM sets policy that the B of C reacts to by raising interest rates. Banks are then obliged to follow suit within very narrow parameters.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> He most certainly did. I put it in bold in case you missed it. The PM sets policy that the B of C reacts to by raising interest rates. Banks are then obliged to follow suit within very narrow parameters.



So does the BofC ever change the rate independently of what the Prime Minister announces? Or perhaps more accurately, what the Minister of Finance announces? Do they ever raise or lower rates on their own?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

They react to the economy to make change. Since government influences the econonmy every day, the answer is clear. Except of course you were too young in the 80s to know. We who lived through it know only to well and it is no different now.

Sent from my iPhone without the use of crap a talk


----------



## rgray




----------



## Macfury

fjn, this isn't normally the stuff of debate. It's the type of material covered in middle school. 



fjnmusic said:


> So you still haven't explained how the PM is able to set or change the bank rates. Magic?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> He most certainly did. I put it in bold in case you missed it. The PM sets policy that the B of C reacts to by raising interest rates. Banks are then obliged to follow suit within very narrow parameters.


Frank, Sinc and McFury are right. The BoC reacts to the economic situation which in many cases is effected and affected by Government policy....which is often ideologically driven the the government, read PM. Take a look at your Alberta budget or the recent Canadian budget announced the other day......anything in there sound like ideology?


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> They react to the economy to make change. Since government influences the econonmy every day, the answer is clear


Frank, Sinc and McFury are correct. The BoC reacts to the economic situation of the country. The Government's policies effect and affect the country's economy and many times these are ideologically driven the governing party and the PM. Take a look at the recent Canadian budget, or even your Alberta budget, anything look like ideology there?


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Frank, Sinc and McFury are correct. The BoC reacts to the economic situation of the country. The Government's policies effect and affect the country's economy and many times these are ideologically driven the governing party and the PM. Take a look at the recent Canadian budget, or even your Alberta budget, anything look like ideology there?


That said BofC rates are controlled by those a great deal higher up the ladder than the PM. The BofC rates were as but no more obscene than the US federal reserve charged at the time. One could equally claim that the BofC rates under the Harpo cabal were set obscenely low. My own lifetime experience indicate the economy was healthiest when the rates were between 4 and 8%. IMO any forays outside of that range should be very short lived.


----------



## Rps

This is weird with a double post, one which I thought was lost.....seniors moment I guess.
eMacMan, you might be right on the rates......I seem to think things were buzzing along quite nicely when the rates were in that range. Just enough rate to make credit costly and just enough rate to aid investment.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> This is weird with a double post, one which I thought was lost.....seniors moment I guess.
> eMacMan, you might be right on the rates......I seem to think things were buzzing along quite nicely when the rates were in that range. Just enough rate to make credit costly and just enough rate to aid investment.


Yes the current low rates encouraged the Harpolites to rack up around $200 Billion in IMF debt and the chosen one seems determined to follow in his predecessors ill-advised footsteps!


----------



## eMacMan

That wasn't a seniors moment it happened here as well. 

Removed unintended double post.


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> That wasn't a seniors moment it happened here as well.
> 
> Removed unintended double post.


Not in the spirit of the thread but, how do you delete a post? I have never done that.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Not in the spirit of the thread but, how do you delete a post? I have never done that.


Rp, click on edit, erase everything and then leave a period to make it a blank posting.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Rp, click on edit, erase everything and then leave a period to make it a blank posting.


Yep, that is what I do as it is impossible to 'erase' any post completely.


----------



## eMacMan

The only reason I did not just leave a dot for the second post was that RPS had seen the same thing. Specifically: Post it > nothing there> repost> shows as a double post.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Let's be clear here, the NEP did not cause the housing crash nationally, which is what counts. *The 21% interest rates that some of us experienced was due to the laxing of home financing requirements*....similar to the bubble sanctioned by our brother south of the border. Here in Ontario you had whole subdivisions bought on $99 down and subsidized mortgages. When the mortgages came up for renewal everyone tried to sell their homes to no avail, so they walked away......sound familiar....2008. I was one of those facing 23% rates, but with 6 months to go the government announced an election.....by the time my mortgage was due it was back to the 12% we signed for.


And that was the policy of the government and not the Bank of Canada just to be clear.

The interest rates of the Bank of Canada are contingent upon the financial policies of the government of the day cut and dry. The two are intertwined. You cannot blame the Bank of Canada for interest rates unless you include the policies of the Federal Government, that is just an indisputable fact.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> So you still haven't explained how the PM is able to set or change the bank rates. Magic?


The PM does not set interest rates but his fiscal policies affect them. Again that is a simple fact that is lost on some. To suggest that the Federal Budget does not affect interest rates is just pure ignorance of economics and how things work.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It isn't an assertion, it is basic economics. Their rates are pegged to the Bank of Canada rate with only a small leeway for independent action. Although the BoC is independent, it often needs to set rates to balance the economy against government policy. So while the PM can set policy that will change BoC rates, the banks can not change them beyond a narrow scope.


Agreed, thankfully there are some people here who have more than a less than basic understanding of economics.


----------



## FeXL

What, no observations on PM Pompadour's <snort> budget? Time to rectify that...

Budget thick in green propaganda



> With the release of their first federal budget on Tuesday, the Trudeau government demonstrated that they are past masters at climate change doublespeak. This is worrisome because of their intense focus on the issue. *The phrase “climate change” appears 43 times in the Budget, more than twice as often as “defence.” “Poverty” appears 13 times and, strangely, “terrorism” appears only three times.*
> 
> Examples of climate change doublespeak in the Budget abound.
> 
> For instance, even though most of Canada’s multi-billion-dollar climate mitigation policies are designed to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions, the Budget never once mentions the gas. Instead, 17 times, it refers to “greenhouse gases (GHG),” which sounds dangerous, while grade school students know CO2 is plant food.


I wonder about "hugs". How many time did "hugs" get mentioned? Probably 3. One for each mention of "terrorist"...

More:



> The Budget frequently references “carbon footprint,” “carbon emissions,” “carbon pricing,” and “low carbon economy.” Dropping the oxygen atoms off the CO2 molecule and calling it merely “carbon” makes about as much sense as dropping the oxygen atom off water (H2O) and calling it hydrogen. But again, i*t is done to encourage people to think of CO2 as something dirty, like graphite or soot.*


M'bold.

Further:



> Tuesday’s federal budget appears to be cleverly crafted to trick the public into supporting the government’s climate change policies.


Screw un fil & screw his climate change policies...


----------



## heavyall

Triple the deficit promised, no intention of coming back from it, and a hefty tax increase for middle class families and small businesses.


----------



## FeXL

One wonders where all the Special Snowflakes who voted for him are. 

C'mon, people, defend his budget! If a Conservative had tabled a budget that tripled the campaigned deficit you'd be asking for heads to roll. Today, crickets...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> One wonders where all the Special Snowflakes who voted for him are.
> 
> C'mon, people, defend his budget! If a Conservative had tabled a budget that tripled the campaigned deficit you'd be asking for heads to roll. Today, crickets...


Yep. Harper was called a "drunken sailor" for a blip into deficit territory.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Yep. Harper was called a "drunken sailor" for a blip into deficit territory.


A blip he was opposed to, but the opposition in a minority parliament demanded.


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> A blip he was opposed to, but the opposition in a minority parliament demanded.


Yeah, curious, that...


----------



## SINC

Yes indeed, without question, and absolutely no surprise as to the idiot who made it.


----------



## Macfury

In fact, I believe there are few if any international conflicts where victory did not include killing the opposition. These statements are moronic.


----------



## MaxPower

Macfury said:


> In fact, I believe there are few if any international conflicts where victory did not include killing the opposition. These statements are moronic.


Statements? We should broaden that to Trudeau and his cabinet.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yes indeed, without question, and absolutely no surprise as to the idiot who made it.





Macfury said:


> In fact, I believe there are few if any international conflicts where victory did not include killing the opposition. These statements are moronic.


Based on that "logic" I guess the Nazi's won WWII. What an idiot indeed.

The worst part is we have endure four more years of his idiocy.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> In fact, I believe there are few if any international conflicts where victory did not include killing the opposition. These statements are moronic.


A this point, it doesn't even have to be said anymore. That certain NOFX song is starting to sound more and more like it's about him rather than George W.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada among 7 countries most vulnerable to debt crisis: economist



> Canada is among the seven countries most likely to suffer a debt crisis in the next one to three years, according to economist Steve Keen.
> 
> ...
> 
> The prediction is based on data from the Bank of International Settlements, which publishes data on government and private debt for 40 countries quarterly, as analyzed by Keen.
> 
> Warning bells go off when the ratio of private debt to GDP is large and when it’s growing quickly, Keen says. He argues that when all borrowing resources are exhausted, and new borrowers refuse to enter the housing market due to sky-high prices, the growth of credit will fall and demand will drop.


More:



> *This is what led to the global financial crisis of 2008, which many countries continue to recover from.*


M'bold.

Shouldn't have anything to worry about then, should we. Oh, wait...


----------



## FeXL

Because it's 2015!

Break a campaign promise? No problem, says Trudeau



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he had no trouble breaking key campaign promises on deficits and, on Thursday, suggested it would have been irresponsible to keep his election commitments.
> 
> During the election campaign, Trudeau repeatedly vowed he would run deficits of no more than $10 billion a year if he was elected and that, in any event, he'd quickly balance the budget by 2020.
> 
> Last week, his government tabled a budget with a deficit three times as big as the one he promised. He also abandoned any target date to balance the budget.


<sigh>...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Well, wouldn't want to truth to get in the way of a good narrative...

Ottawa’s human rights report on Saudi Arabia to be ‘sanitized’ for public



> A new assessment of the state of human rights in Saudi Arabia drawn up by the Canadian government will be heavily censored before it is released to the public to remove, among other things, information that could damage Canada-Saudi relations, a veteran public-interest researcher says.
> 
> Ken Rubin says he’s found evidence that the unclassified version will be missing large chunks of what Ottawa thinks about the Saudis. “The public is getting a sanitized version of the Saudi human rights record.”


More:



> Mr. Rubin said the heavily edited rights assessment serves to lessen Canada’s embarrassment over a controversial transaction with a country ranked among “the worst of the worst” on human rights by Freedom House. “This in turn provides greater cover to the issuing of export permits for lucrative arms deals,” he says.


Well, of course.

And, before the usual suspects start clambering down my throat about "bbbb-but, Harper!!!", yes, I know this deal was brokered by the Conservatives and I didn't like it then, either.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Gee, wonder why? Couldn't be because there might actually be a credible threat, both from inside & outside the country, could it? Naaawwwww...

Top Mountie says 500 organized crime investigators now on terrorism cases



> About 500 Mounties who were working on organized crime investigations have been moved to national security and terrorism cases, RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson said Thursday.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, I ran across an article about PM Pompadour's socks yesterday. I shook my head & rolled my eyes thinking, serious? This is all MSM has to report about today? Then, I dug around a bit & find that there is a serious interest in what the Hairdo wears for socks.

Really? Who gives a flying...

Here's just one not so recent article.

Justin Trudeau’s socks appeal



> Foreign policy? Leadership skills? No, the rest of the world cares about what’s on Justin Trudeau’s feet.


Actually, I don't...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

No argument...

Trudeau adopting wrong immigration approach



> Justin Trudeau, like the failed leaders of Europe, seems to believe there is nothing special about western values. And since there is nothing special about our culture or our identity, there is no point in asking newcomers to accept these values or integrate into our society.
> 
> Any newcomer can move to Canada, so goes the thinking of official multiculturalism, without changing anything about themselves. They don’t need to learn our language, abide by our norms and values, or even necessarily follow Canadian laws. Every culture is equal, and being Canadian means nothing at all.
> 
> *This is exactly the kind of thinking that has devastated Europe and brought war to its doorstep.*


----------



## SINC

Liberals risk losing the public trust - The Globe and Mail


----------



## SINC

Trudeau’s ‘honeymoon’ now fading: EKOS – iPolitics


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Trudeau’s ‘honeymoon’ now fading: EKOS – iPolitics


Thus the rationale for an equal and mid-term elected Senate, with the power vested in the Upper House.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Liberals risk losing the public trust - The Globe and Mail


Let's see the Liberal Party is composed almost entirely of politicians. Any one that trusts any politician has to be out of their freakin gourd. Matters not whether they are black with white stripes down the back or the other way around. They are politicians and by definition should not be trusted.

My apologies to any skunks whose feelings were hurt by my comparing them to politicians. That was terribly unfair, as real skunks do earn their keep by eating rats, mice and other vermin!


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Trudeau’s ‘honeymoon’ now fading: EKOS – iPolitics


Musta been a bad hair day...


----------



## SINC

Bump to move stuck thread. Might as well include this.


----------



## SINC

Yep , , ,


----------



## Dr.G.

Trudeau says he does not have money in offshore accounts - The Globe and Mail

Well that is good to know. I would have hated to hear that he was on the list.


----------



## zen.state

Canada needs to stop worrying about the world around it so much, and concentrate more on itself. The USA has eagerly taken on the role of war against the rest of the world, so let them deal with it.

Oh yes... and we need a leader with some balls. Not these endless beta males. Is there some beta male factory they get all modern politicians from?


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Trudeau says he does not have money in offshore accounts - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Well that is good to know. I would have hated to hear that he was on the list.


While it is possible he is telling the truth, we must remember he is a politician. It is at least possible that he owns holding companies, which control holding companies............. which have money in offshore accounts. That is how the pros do it. Added benefit is that he is technically telling the truth when he says he has no money in offshore accounts.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> While it is possible he is telling the truth, we must remember he is a politician. It is at least possible that he owns holding companies, which control holding companies............. which have money in offshore accounts. That is how the pros do it. Added benefit is that he is technically telling the truth when he says he has no money in offshore accounts.


Well, I am hoping he is truly honest than with nothing to hide.


----------



## CubaMark

*Conservative MP Deepak Obhrai: New Rules Turning Tories Into 'Elitist And White-Only' Club*








A longtime Conservative MP is blasting his own party for becoming an “elitist and white-only” club.

Calgary MP Deepak Obhrai, the dean of the Tory caucus, told The Huffington Post Canada he is deeply frustrated by new rules the party imposed earlier this year that raised the annual Conservative membership fee to $25 — “the highest of any party” — and set the entrance fees for leadership contestants at $100,000.

“Since we lost power in 2015, I have become very concerned about the direction my party has taken,” he told HuffPost over the phone on Thursday.

“These actions, in my view, have disenfranchised a vast majority of Canadians. Newcomers, immigrants, low-income Canadians, and those economically challenged will be turned off and walk away because they can’t afford these high fees...

“What is concerning me is that, unfortunately, [the Conservatives] will be seen as an elitist and white-only party,” he said.​(HuffPo)​


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> *Conservative MP Deepak Obhrai: New Rules Turning Tories Into 'Elitist And White-Only' Club*


I didn't realize Obhrai was such a racist asshole. Time to kick him to the curb.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I didn't realize Obhrai was such a racist asshole. Time to kick him to the curb.


Really. I love his reverse racism... only whites can afford $25. Don't expect immigrants to achieve that high bar.


----------



## SINC

The awful truth is beginning to be noticed:

Trudeau blasted by Brazilian magazine and Amnesty International - Politics - CBC News


----------



## SINC

And now the deception is glaring:

Open and Transparent?


----------



## MacGuiver

SINC said:


> The awful truth is beginning to be noticed:
> 
> Trudeau blasted by Brazilian magazine and Amnesty International - Politics - CBC News


You should check out the Globe and Mail's article on this. They start defending the shiny pony from the get go saying the author had more pressing things to worry about in their own country. Funny thing is they've never made that observation of anyone writing a fanboy story about Trudeau from another country.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Conservative MP Deepak Obhrai: New Rules Turning Tories Into 'Elitist And White-Only' Club*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A longtime Conservative MP is blasting his own party for becoming an “elitist and white-only” club.
> 
> Calgary MP Deepak Obhrai, the dean of the Tory caucus, told The Huffington Post Canada he is deeply frustrated by new rules the party imposed earlier this year that raised the annual Conservative membership fee to $25 — “the highest of any party” — and set the entrance fees for leadership contestants at $100,000.
> 
> “Since we lost power in 2015, I have become very concerned about the direction my party has taken,” he told HuffPost over the phone on Thursday.
> 
> “These actions, in my view, have disenfranchised a vast majority of Canadians. Newcomers, immigrants, low-income Canadians, and those economically challenged will be turned off and walk away because they can’t afford these high fees...
> 
> “What is concerning me is that, unfortunately, [the Conservatives] will be seen as an elitist and white-only party,” he said.​(HuffPo)​


His opinions are his own and speaks to his own checkered past. $25 is too high a price for membership???!!! Give me a break! That is the price of 2 packs of cigarettes, and to suggest that it is only white people who could afford that belies his ignorance and political pandering.

I think this is his first step in his real intention which is to cross the floor. Never liked or trusted the guy. He always came across being self serving, to me at least.


----------



## Dr.G.

Wonder who the NDP will eventually select as their leader this weekend? We shall see.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Wonder who the NDP will eventually select as their leader this weekend? We shall see.


I think Angry Tom will face some competition.

He went from being the front runner to ending up in 3rd place... not a very good showing at all.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> I think Angry Tom will face some competition.
> 
> He went from being the front runner to ending up in 3rd place... not a very good showing at all.


If the NDP elects a new leader from this convention they will be firmly entrenched as the politically stooooooooopid! Logic dictates Tom should be bye-byes, but doing it before the Cons select theirs is just plain dumb. All inertia will be lost, something not lost on the Cons I am sure. Tom might be okay but oh does he pander......that, I think, was his, and their, biggest mistake.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I think Angry Tom will face some competition.
> 
> He went from being the front runner to ending up in 3rd place... not a very good showing at all.


True, Steve. We shall see.


----------



## SINC

About sums it up.


----------



## zen.state

carbon tax is the biggest scam since bottled water


----------



## Dr.G.

Mulcair loses leadership of NDP at convention - The Globe and Mail

I thought that he might lose his leadership, but not by this much.


----------



## heavyall

Dr.G. said:


> Mulcair loses leadership of NDP at convention - The Globe and Mail
> 
> I thought that he might lose his leadership, but not by this much.


You don't think 52% is close?


----------



## Dr.G.

heavyall said:


> You don't think 52% is close?


I was thinking that he would get about 60% support, which would have triggered a new leader. However, he got less than 50% support. Sad. He was a good leader but, as he said, he took the blame for their loss in the last election.


----------



## SINC

Mulcair had two faults.

First he assumed the leadership from Layton and tried to use Jack's success to build his own. He failed miserably at filling Layton's shoes. 

He was viewed by his own party as an opportunist for attempting to turn Layton's charisma into his own at at that, he was an utter failure. 

He was little more than a Quebecer trying to gain control of a Canadian majority of union based ideleologists and failed.


----------



## Rps

Well this proves the NDP are now residents for the Home For The Chronically Stunned! What they needed to do was hash out a going forward policy.
Mulcair was aloof, willfully ignorant ( meaning he didn't listen) and he spent his time thinking he was Jack Layton. The NDP didn't think they were the protest vote.....can you say Reform Party anyone. Preston Manning must be smiling somewhere today.

Notley just saw any chance of an NDP recovery go out the window, can you say Wild Rose Party blooming. And, really, holding the convention in Edmonton for the dump Mulcair crowd would be like giving Jack The Ripper an Avon route......I mean really!


----------



## CubaMark

I think it's pretty clear that the NDP membership realized - the night of their defeat - that moving to the centre and acting like Liberal Party 2.0 was what killed them.

The convention appeared to show a decided move back toward their traditional, leftward, tilt - something that is essential for the party as it begins to rebuild for the next election in however many years.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> The convention appeared to show a decided move back toward their traditional, leftward, tilt - something that is essential for the party as it begins to rebuild for the next election in however many years.


Time for them to emulate their hero, Hugo Chavez!


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> I think it's pretty clear that the NDP membership realized - the night of their defeat - that moving to the centre and acting like Liberal Party 2.0 was what killed them.
> 
> The convention appeared to show a decided move back toward their traditional, leftward, tilt - something that is essential for the party as it begins to rebuild for the next election in however many years.


That move back is a good thing for the country. By such a move to their traditional, radical and whacky policies, it will ensure they are not ever elected to govern this country.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> That move back is a good thing for the country. By such a move to their traditional, radical and whacky policies, it will ensure they are not ever elected to govern this country.


Exactly. I was worried about that bizarre moment of popularity and the Trojan horse policies that would have emerged.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Mulcair loses leadership of NDP at convention - The Globe and Mail
> 
> I thought that he might lose his leadership, but not by this much.





Dr.G. said:


> I was thinking that he would get about 60% support, which would have triggered a new leader. However, he got less than 50% support. Sad. He was a good leader but, as he said, he took the blame for their loss in the last election.





SINC said:


> Mulcair had two faults.
> 
> *First he assumed the leadership from Layton and tried to use Jack's success to build his own. He failed miserably at filling Layton's shoes.
> 
> He was viewed by his own party as an opportunist for attempting to turn Layton's charisma into his own at at that, he was an utter failure.
> 
> He was little more than a Quebecer trying to gain control of a Canadian majority of union based ideleologists and failed.*





Rps said:


> Well this proves the NDP are now residents for the Home For The Chronically Stunned! *What they needed to do was hash out a going forward policy.
> Mulcair was aloof, willfully ignorant ( meaning he didn't listen) and he spent his time thinking he was Jack Layton. The NDP didn't think they were the protest vote.....can you say Reform Party anyone. Preston Manning must be smiling somewhere today.
> *
> Notley just saw any chance of an NDP recovery go out the window, can you say Wild Rose Party blooming. And, really, holding the convention in Edmonton for the dump Mulcair crowd would be like giving Jack The Ripper an Avon route......I mean really!





CubaMark said:


> I think it's pretty clear that the NDP membership realized - the night of their defeat - that moving to the centre and acting like Liberal Party 2.0 was what killed them.
> 
> The convention appeared to show a decided move back toward their traditional, leftward, tilt - something that is essential for the party as it begins to rebuild for the next election in however many years.





SINC said:


> That move back is a good thing for the country. By such a move to their traditional, radical and whacky policies, it will ensure they are not ever elected to govern this country.





Macfury said:


> Exactly. I was worried about that bizarre moment of popularity and the Trojan horse policies that would have emerged.


Exactly SINC and Rps. Mulcair never won the trust of the Canadian people because of his arrogance and his penchant for speaking down to people. He like Dion and Ignatieff were viewed by the public as being "highfalutin". He was not a populist, unlike ‘le bon Jack’ and no one "bought" his new image once the election began as being Tom 2.0 who is a kinder gentler fellow. His arrogance was his downfall in thinking that he could fill Jack Layton's shoes just because he was the new leader of the NDP. He didn't walk in Jack Layton's foot steps so had no idea of what big shoes he had to fill.

He was not the creator of the "Orange Wave" and as such he didn't how to maintain it. He just thought, in unkind terms, "if Jack can do it I can do it". Sadly for him he was oh so wrong.

IMO the Canadian Federal Political Landscape would be much different today had Jack Layton beat his cancer and survived to be the Leader of the Official Opposition.

The NDP has become what the Liberals were after the 2011 Election results, a party adrift without any direction.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Exactly. I was worried about that bizarre moment of popularity and the Trojan horse policies that would have emerged.


Just an observation. I think they're looking South and seeing the Bernie Sanders phenomena and thinking that full on socialism may have a market. If Bernie Sanders can be popular in the US, Icon of capitalism, Canada may be ripe for radical nanny state socialism.
The liberals also continue ****ting left, forcing the NDP to go further to differentiate themselves.


----------



## Macfury

> The liberals also continue ****ting left, forcing the NDP to go further to differentiate themselves.


Was thinking that word in the last line might be a misspelling, but I prefer you leave it--more accurate!


----------



## zen.state

The liberals, at least the federal ones, tend to run for office from the left, but run office from the centre-right. Our new age PM has put a stop to most of that.

I honestly find it a bit embarrassing that he is our PM. I would honestly rather have Tom the beard in office, and I hate the NDP.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Was thinking that word in the last line might be a misspelling, but I prefer you leave it--more accurate!


LOL. Must have been a Freudian slip. They are ****ting left though.


----------



## Macfury

zen.state said:


> The liberals, at least the federal ones, tend to run for office from the left, but run office from the centre-right. Our new age PM has put a stop to most of that.
> 
> I honestly find it a bit embarrassing that he is our PM. I would honestly rather have Tom the beard in office, and I hate the NDP.


I never voted for Chretien, but by and large I did not feel terrible about having him as PM because of his centre-right governance. His government seemed to be able to give everyone at least something they wanted, whether lower deficits or some social program or other. Justin gives me literally nothing--he's like a rampaging Yorkie raiding the biscuit jar.


----------



## zen.state

Macfury said:


> I never voted for Chretien, but by and large I did not feel terrible about having him as PM because of his centre-right governance. His government seemed to be able to give everyone at least something they wanted, whether lower deficits or some social program or other. Justin gives me literally nothing--he's like a rampaging Yorkie raiding the biscuit jar.


Chretien was okay, but his years of leadership were some of the darkest years for our military. I take that a little personal coming from a military family, but yes, other than that he was mostly sufficient.


----------



## Macfury

zen.state said:


> Chretien was okay, but his years of leadership were some of the darkest years for our military. I take that a little personal coming from a military family, but yes, other than that he was mostly sufficient.


I didn't love it, but I was not in a panic is what I'm saying. Justin is totally irresponsible.


----------



## SINC

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Harper emerges to speak to Republicans and Conservatives - The Globe and Mail

A blast from the past, so to speak.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Harper emerges to speak to Republicans and Conservatives - The Globe and Mail
> 
> A blast from the past, so to speak.


What's the big deal? This is news? Clinton made millions upon millions of dollars after being President to speak to people who would pay to listen to what he had to say.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Another Rex classic. Very well said.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.





Dr.G. said:


> Another Rex classic. Very well said.


He hit the nail on the head!! Like I said previously, the NDP are like the Liberals after the 2011 election, they are adrift without any direction and have once again entered into the realm of political obscurity, which is where they were since before the time of "le bon Jack" who took them out of the woods and into the political mainstream.

Mulcair's NDP lost both the election and he his Party Leadership. He should do the honorable thing and resign his seat in the House tout suite... As should Stephen Harper, and as Stephan Dion should have done in 2008 if he had any integrity.

I know they all won their respective seats, but they were not just attempting to be backbenchers, they were attempting to be leaders and their party lost. They should accept the responsibility for their given party's losses and resign while their dignity is still intact and not be seen as merely holding onto their pay cheques. They are are all done like dinner and should accept that fact and move on and let the rest of Canada move on without their dead weight.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> He hit the nail on the head!! Like I said previously, the NDP are like the Liberals after the 2011 election, they are adrift without any direction and have once again entered into the realm of political obscurity, which is where they were since before the time of "le bon Jack" who took them out of the woods and into the political mainstream.
> 
> Mulcair's NDP lost both the election and he his Party Leadership. He should do the honorable thing and resign his seat in the House tout suite... As should Stephen Harper, and as Stephan Dion should have done in 2008 if he had any integrity.
> 
> I know they all won their respective seats, but they were not just attempting to be backbenchers, they were attempting to be leaders and their party lost. They should accept the responsibility for their given party's losses and resign while their dignity is still intact and not be seen as merely holding onto their pay cheques. They are are all done like dinner and should accept that fact and move on and let the rest of Canada move one without their dead weight.


I bet Pierre Trudeau and Winston Churchill were glad they didn't have you as their political advisor!


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> I bet Pierre Trudeau and Winston Churchill were glad they didn't have you as their political advisor!


No doubt, because I am not some political party hack or patsy. Neither of them did the right thing either. They just kept their jobs even though they brought their parties to the edge of an abyss.

No one says you can't resign and then re-apply for the same job. But if you are the cause of your party's downfall you should own up to it and stop getting a paycheck.

When Steve Jobs was booted as CEO of Apple he did the right thing and resigned, only to come back stronger and be better for it, because his absence became palpable and his respect even greater.


----------



## screature

*Just add an addendum...*

When it comes to Stephen Harper he had the decency to resign his leadership of the party, but what he did not do was resign his seat, which he should have.

Leaders of Parties should not have an electoral jurisdiction associated with them. All seats should be represented by local MPs and not the Leader of Parties.

That way if someone who runs for PM and losses, they have no safety net. They simply lost.

If their Party decides to give them a job then that money comes from Party coffers and not from the Canadian taxpayer.


----------



## Dr.G.

NDP lost the left to Justin Trudeau before rejecting Tom Mulcair - Politics - CBC News

I know that this was my situation here in Nova Scotia. In all my voting years, I had voted for the PCs once, and the rest of the times for the NDP. These were all in the St. John's East riding. This past election was my first vote for the Liberal Party. Their candidate won easily in my riding.


----------



## Vandave

I think the failure of the NDP goes back further than the election. As much as we want to think the Liberals won the election on their campaign, I think historic credibility of each party played a big factor. People are more comfortable voting left with a Liberal than they are voting centrist with the NDP. The federal Liberals had credibility for running a smooth government, while the NDP have a very mixed record Provincially and have never governed federally. People in Saskatchewan, BC and Ontario remember all too well the poor governance of the NDP. So even though Mulcair came up with a moderate platform, I think it didn't sit well with people because it's not their true colours.

I think the template for a left leaning party to win was shown under Tony Blair in the UK. You have to turf out the single issue extremists from your ranks to be a credible centrist party. And, to top if off, you have to wait for a period in history where the Liberal party implodes. That bus left 5 to 10 years ago and it's not coming back for a couple decades.

In the meantime, I don't see much harm with the NDP going hard left and fringe like they appear to be doing. What else do they offer the country other than a voice for people with those beliefs? They can't reinvent the party as a centrist party now that the Liberals are back as the natural governing party. There is just no room for it. If the Liberals ever implode again, then it's time to revisit that.

It will be interesting to see if they swallow up the Green Party with their new manifesto.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> When it comes to Stephen Harper he had the decency to resign his leadership of the party, but what he did not do was resign his seat, which he should have.
> 
> Leaders of Parties should not have an electoral jurisdiction associated with them. All seats should be represented by local MPs and not the Leader of Parties.
> 
> That way if someone who runs for PM and losses, they have no safety net. They simply lost.
> 
> If their Party decides to give them a job then that money comes from Party coffers and not from the Canadian taxpayer.


An excellent idea!


----------



## screature

Vandave said:


> I think the failure of the NDP goes back further than the election. As much as we want to think the Liberals won the election on their campaign, I think historic credibility of each party played a big factor. People are more comfortable voting left with a Liberal than they are voting centrist with the NDP. The federal Liberals had credibility for running a smooth government, while the NDP have a very mixed record Provincially and have never governed federally. People in Saskatchewan, BC and Ontario remember all too well the poor governance of the NDP. So even though Mulcair came up with a moderate platform, I think it didn't sit well with people because it's not their true colours.
> 
> I think the template for a left leaning party to win was shown under Tony Blair in the UK. You have to turf out the single issue extremists from your ranks to be a credible centrist party. And, to top if off, you have to wait for a period in history where the Liberal party implodes. That bus left 5 to 10 years ago and it's not coming back for a couple decades.
> 
> In the meantime, I don't see much harm with the NDP going hard left and fringe like they appear to be doing. What else do they offer the country other than a voice for people with those beliefs? They can't reinvent the party as a centrist party now that the Liberals are back as the natural governing party. There is just no room for it. If the Liberals ever implode again, then it's time to revisit that.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if they swallow up the Green Party with their new manifesto.


An interesting observation/analysis Vandave. Time will tell. 2019 is not that far away. 

All Parties are already gearing up for it...


----------



## Vandave

screature said:


> An interesting observation/analysis Vandave. Time will tell. 2019 is not that far away.
> 
> All Parties are already gearing up for it...


I think Trudeau will win again even though I believe he's off to a bad start. Ironically, I think his lack of experience will benefit him in this respect. The public will give him a lot of leeway because they will feel that he means well. I think the Conservatives would do well not to hammer him on his lack of experience. Rather, I think they need to frame him as being just another lying and scheming politician. Hard to do because there won't be much material to work with.

I think the Liberals failed to change the script on Harper and they kept pushing the old hidden agenda line without any traction. It will be the same with Trudeau and lack of experience or competence. 

The NDP is out of the picture. The left of centre won't abandon him.


----------



## MacGuiver

Vandave said:


> I think Trudeau will win again even though I believe he's off to a bad start. Ironically, I think his lack of experience will benefit him in this respect. The public will give him a lot of leeway because they will feel that he means well. I think the Conservatives would do well not to hammer him on his lack of experience. Rather, I think they need to frame him as being just another lying and scheming politician. Hard to do because there won't be much material to work with.
> 
> I think the Liberals failed to change the script on Harper and they kept pushing the old hidden agenda line without any traction. It will be the same with Trudeau and lack of experience or competence.
> 
> The NDP is out of the picture. The left of centre won't abandon him.


Vandave I think a lot of that will also depend on the state the country is in 4 years from now. If its relatively unscathed, I think your right. I'm not that optimistic that it will be but we shall see. Then again if you look at the situation in Ontario with ongoing McGuinty/Wynne dynasty, anything is possible.


----------



## eMacMan

Bump to overcome Bonkered Thread Syndrome.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Bump to overcome Bonkered Thread Syndrome.


What?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> What?


Sometimes you can see that somebody has responded to a thread, but that message will not show up until you post an additional message yourself.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Sometimes you can see that somebody has responded to a thread, but that message will not show up until you post an additional message yourself.


Ok I see, I have not as yet encountered that myself.


----------



## SINC

Yep, it happens more often than one would think, but those of us who see it simply bump the thread to read the post. Do it myself a half dozen times a year or so, as I imagine do others who notice it. You can see on the menu page that person A has posted, but when you go to the thread, the last post is by another much earlier poster.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> Yep, it happens more often than one would think, but those of us who see it simply bump the thread to read the post. Do it myself a half dozen times a year or so, as I imagine do others who notice it. You can see on the menu page that person A has posted, but when you go to the thread, the last post is by another much earlier poster.


It's fun when you can see that there is at least another page (or more) and it won't let you go to the next one.


----------



## heavyall

Vandave said:


> Rather, I think they need to frame him as being just another lying and scheming politician. Hard to do because there won't be much material to work with.


Pretty easy to do right now, since he hasn't even come close to following what he claimed he'd do during the election. You're right though, people are giving him far more leeway than "normal" politicians get. It's like the remedial class -- people are proud of him for trying.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Sometimes you can see that somebody has responded to a thread, but that message will not show up until you post an additional message yourself.


Yep was showing another page but refusing to go there, then I ended up as first post on the next page. Quite confusing but it does happen sometimes.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I'll be convinced the day oil starts flowing...

Trudeau getting it on pipelines. NDP? Not so much



> Good news? For the oil industry? From the federal Liberals!?
> 
> On Monday it was reported that senior federal cabinet ministers have succeeded in convincing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that if his government is to reach the revenue targets required to fund all its spending dreams, he will have to convince the premiers that the country needs not just one, but two pipelines.
> 
> The national economy simply cannot grow enough without Alberta and Saskatchewan being able to get their bitumen and heavy oil to refineries and ports.


Ah. So, it was his handlers. Knew he couldn't figger it out on his own...

More:



> Apparently finance minister Bill Morneau and some of the other grownups at the cabinet table have managed to persuade Prime Minister Selfie that to govern it is not enough just to Tweet fashionable platitudes, skip around the country emoting with gushy fans and jet off to D.C. for a bromance festival with Barack Obama.


Love the digs.

Further:



> Alberta NDP Premier Rachel Notley has spent much of her time since Sunday’s Leap vote running away from the anti-oil, anti-pipeline, pro-socialism document. Leap’s call for an immediate halt to further pipeline construction and an end to all use of fossil fuels within a generation would rob her new provincial government of any hope of re-election – and it has little enough hope already.
> 
> *On Monday, while the federal Liberals were quietly letting it be known that they had been mugged by fiscal reality – and were now behind two pipeline projects – Premier Notley was feverishly trying to convince Albertans that a) the Leap Manifesto vote was non-binding* (“It’s just for discussion,” she told a news conference.) and b) if the manifesto ever became federal NDP policy, she and her party will… well, she’s not clear on what she would do if that happens.


M'bold.

Riiiiight...


----------



## FeXL

Further on Mulcair, Rachel & the NDP.

Tom Mulcair loses NDP leadership vote as his party makes a Leap to the left



> Tensions ran high throughout the three-day convention, both on the convention floor and in the hallways behind it. T*he party’s activist wing found itself increasingly at odds with other factions, especially the sizeable Alberta delegation, which fears the Leap Manifesto’s anti-pipeline and anti-oil rhetoric will damage the provincial party and Premier Rachel Notley.*


M'bold.

Amazing what a little dose of reality will do to hardliners, especially with the prospect of re-election disappearing like a fart in a whirlwind...

Nah, nah, nah, nah,

Hey, hey...

Related:

Mulcair lost by bowing to Islamism



> Despite Mulcair’s lurch to the right, he could still have been prime minister had it not been for his outlandish support for the right of a Muslim woman to wear the Islamic niqab at her Canadian citizenship swearing in ceremony.
> 
> The issue so captured the minds of Canadians that Maclean’s, in its Sept. 25, 2015 issue, labelled the campaign, “The niqab election”.
> 
> By his own admission to CBC radio on Feb. 13, Mulcair said his backing of the niqab cost the NDP heavily.


Hope it was worth it...


----------



## Dr.G.

Alberta spends and N.L. taxes, on different paths after oil price crunch - Calgary - CBC News

An interesting pan-Canadian article.


----------



## Dr.G.

Welcome to New-fee-land: N.L. turns to social media to rip budget - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News

Hard times in NL.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Welcome to New-fee-land: N.L. turns to social media to rip budget - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News
> 
> Hard times in NL.


Good God I wish I made that much working at Parliament. Hard times for ex-Parliamentary employees. The average person has no idea how little the average even experienced person earns by being employed on the Hill. It is pathetic. I know personally.

When you are older and more experienced you are worth less...

Funny that if it were not just so sad and true.

I understand that some people may say "boo hoo" you lost your job at Parliament. I went through that before also in the private sector. People thought I had it so easy even though they did not know me or my history.They did not understand that I had been through this before in the private sector but they just decided to judge me based on the last job I had.

People should not judge based on what they have no experience of, cut and dry.

Sadly we all do it or so it would seem... Except for the rare few.

Crybaby episode done.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Good God I wish I made that much working at Parliament. Hard times for ex-Parliamentary employees. The average person has no idea how little the average even experienced person earns by being employed on the Hill. It is pathetic. I know personally.
> 
> When you are older and more experienced you are worth less...
> 
> Funny that if it were not just so sad and true.
> 
> I understand that some people may say "boo hoo" you lost your job at Parliament. I went through that before also in the private sector. People thought I had it so easy even though they did not know me or my history.They did not understand that I had been through this before in the private sector but they just decided to judge me based on the last job I had.
> 
> People should not judge based on what they have no experience of, cut and dry.
> 
> Sadly we all do it or so it would seem... Except for the rare few.
> 
> Crybaby episode done.


I hear you, Steve. No, you are not a "crybaby". My son lost his position with Intergovernmental Affairs in the NL provincial government at the pre-budget job cuts. He had to change his career path and is now working with London Life. He likes his new position, but his main choice is with some sort of provincial government position. He was good at his job as a policy analyst, but those are the sorts of positions that get cut first.

So, bonne chance, mon ami, on your search for employment. Paix.


----------



## Dr.G.

Q&A: Anderson Cooper talks U.S. election and Prime Minister Trudeau | The Chronicle Herald

An interesting take on PM Trudeau.


----------



## Dr.G.

The long form census here in Canada will be counter-balanced with a shorter 1040 tax form for those of us here in Canada who are American citizens. They are hoping that in Canada, a more accurate account of Canadians will result from this longer census form, and in the US, it is hoped that this will help to balance the US budget now that Canada Revenue has become an arm of the IRS in the US.


----------



## SINC

Yep.

The Justin Trudeau quantum computing story is what happens when journalists bend reality for social media


----------



## FeXL

As always, Rex is on target.

Rex Murphy: Canada’s not the enemy — but don’t try telling that to Stephen and Avi Lewis



> One of the more forceful lines of Stephen Lewis’s speech in Edmonton in support of the Leap Manifesto last weekend was his forceful takedown of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on the question of the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia. After complimenting Trudeau for his florid embrace of feminism, he gave a quite deft turn of the knife by asking how Trudeau the feminist could justify selling arms to Saudi Arabia, a “regime steeped in misogyny.”
> 
> It was a very good question, in that it highlights the importance of consistency when one takes ideological stands on the various principles of social justice. After all, you can’t wear the feminist T-shirt at home and traffic with misogynists abroad.
> 
> An equally just critique may be made of a certain Leap-authoring social justice activist. So it is fair, I think, to borrow the rhetorical firecracker Stephen Lewis tossed at Trudeau and lob it toward his son, Avi Lewis. Here the question is: can someone with an advanced social conscience work as a “journalist” for the kingdom of Qatar, as Avi did? I placed the word “journalist” in quotation marks because it is stressful to the mind to incorporate the words “journalist” and “Qatar” in the same sentence. We are, after all, talking about a country that once sentenced a poet to life in prison for a few bristling iambics about its hallowed leader (world scorn over the barbarous injustice eventually got the sentence commuted).


----------



## FeXL

Just the local fearmonger again...

Canada finally waking up to EMP attack threat



> Our government is finally starting to discuss how Canada — and the United States — remains vulnerable to major attacks to our critical infrastructure that could devastate our way of life.
> 
> It sounds like science fiction, but it’s real. If an electromagnetic pulse attack hit North America, it could take out our electronics for many months, killing millions of people through societal breakdown.
> 
> You’d think something of this severity would be discussed more. However we’re now making progress.
> 
> On Monday, the standing Senate committee on national security and defence hosted what the chairman, Conservative Sen. Daniel Lang, described as likely the first ever public forum on critical infrastructure attacks in Canada.


Of course:



> Some people might try to ignore or downplay the issue. Liberal Sen. Grant Mitchell spoke dismissively about the threat of EMP by trying to shift it into an unrelated debate about climate change. Let’s hope this isn’t a sign of things to come.


----------



## FeXL

Well, I can certainly see the logic in that...

Killer wants earlier shot at parole



> The heartless killer whose hail of gunfire outside the Duke of York Tavern in 2008 killed Bailey Zaveda and seriously injured four others says his aboriginal heritage should get him a shorter sentence.


Is a (/sarc) really needed?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Well, rather than focussing (no pun intended) on more trivial matters of issue beyond PM Pompadour's hair, socks & other nonsense, we're finally getting to the meat of the matter.

We're going to visit him in a NYC gym!

I still can’t get over this. The PM is working out at a NY gym tomorrow for a photo op.

Ooooo. Ahhhh.

(gag...)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Easily fits in the MSM thread, as well.

Pallister at 54%, biggest win in MB history. Macleans: he's unlikeable. JT at 39%. Macleans: he won over the nation


----------



## Dr.G.

'No criminal intent': First 8 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues - Politics - CBC News

Our criminal justice system at work. Hopefully, they will give Duffy the $90,000 back .......... even if it was not his money. Now, as charge after charge is dropped against the "old Duffer", one wonders if this same system will apologize to His Lordship, Conrad Black, for his improper imprisonment ........... or, better yet, provide him with compensation due to his harsh confinement and loss of freedom. This would be a fine first step to demonstrate that the scales of justice are balanced, even for the rich and famous. We shall see.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> 'No criminal intent': First 8 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Our criminal justice system at work. Hopefully, they will give Duffy the $90,000 back .......... even if it was not his money. Now, as charge after charge is dropped against the "old Duffer", one wonders if this same system will apologize to His Lordship, Conrad Black, for his improper imprisonment ........... or, better yet, provide him with compensation due to his harsh confinement and loss of freedom. This would be a fine first step to demonstrate that the scales of justice are balanced, even for the rich and famous. We shall see.


I suspect the Duffer will be convicted of a single charge. It will relate to his willfully telling a truth.  That is something which cannot and should not be tolerated in Canadian Politics.


----------



## Macfury

18 charges dismissed now.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I suspect the Duffer will be convicted of a single charge. It will relate to his willfully telling a truth.  That is something which cannot and should not be tolerated in Canadian Politics.


'No criminal intent': 18 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues.

No, he shall be set free. The other Senators are erecting a statue in front of Parliament in his honor, in that they are now all free to do as they please with the money from the public purse. It has been a long trial for one and all. "Justice delayed is justice denied." Luckily, there is a happy ending.

The new Canada Post stamp was a bit much in that it will take 2 of them, plus a two cent stamp, to send cards of support (or checks) to Duffy's PEI home.


----------



## Dr.G.

'No criminal intent': 20 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues

And the beat goes on ................. he beat the system. He fought the law ................ and HE won!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfbmjUQOFxs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0sI6eFarFE

The court is expected to return at 2 p.m. ET with the ruling on the remaining 11 charges.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> 'No criminal intent': 18 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues.
> 
> No, he shall be set free. The other Senators are erecting a statue in front of Parliament in his honor, in that they are now all free to do as they please with the money from the public purse. It has been a long trial for one and all. "Justice delayed is justice denied." Luckily, there is a happy ending.
> 
> The new Canada Post stamp was a bit much in that it will take 2 of them, plus a two cent stamp, to send cards of support (or checks) to Duffy's PEI home.


After the farmer has filled the trough it permissible for a pig to take as much for him/herself. Nothing criminal in that.

In 1867 the Senate was established for the wealthy to maintain control and fill their collective pockets at the expense of the rest of us. 

Remember white cats, black cats, striped cats, etc. are to remain in charge of MouseLand...er Canada. 

Tommy Douglas and the ND Party have fought, since the 60's, to abolish the Senate. Let remain focused on the real problem. Let's not not be distracted by the symptoms of the disease.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> After the farmer has filled the trough it permissible for a pig to take as much for him/herself. Nothing criminal in that.
> 
> In 1867 the Senate was established for the wealthy to maintain control and fill their collective pockets at the expense of the rest of us.
> 
> Remember white cats, black cats, striped cats, etc. are to remain in charge of MouseLand...er Canada.
> 
> Tommy Douglas and the ND Party have fought, since the 60's, to abolish the Senate. Let remain focused on the real problem. Let's not not be distracted by the symptoms of the disease.


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqpFm7zAK90[/ame]

"You can lock up a mouse, or a man, but you can't lock up an idea." Tommy Douglas


----------



## Dr.G.

All charges against Mike Duffy have been dismissed. He has been vindicated. The court of public opinion now owes him an apology and a debt of gratitude. Now we once again have a Senate that is free from constraints and a true venue for a "sober second thought" ........... when they show up for work. Sadly, the judge threw former PM Harper under the bus. I wonder how this will influence former PM Harper's career of re-enacting scenes from The Friendly Giant with his makeshift Jerome the Giraffe glove puppet? 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y21bhg80Hkw[/ame]


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> All charges against Mike Duffy have been dismissed. He has been vindicated. The court of public opinion now owes him an apology and a debt of gratitude. Now we once again have a Senate that is free from constraints and a true venue for a "sober second thought" ........... when they show up for work. Sadly, the judge threw former PM Harper under the bus. I wonder how this will influence former PM Harper's career of re-enacting scenes from The Friendly Giant with his makeshift Jerome the Giraffe glove puppet?
> 
> 
> 
> [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y21bhg80Hkw[/ame]



It does make former PM Harper look like a bit of an idiot to claim he knew nothing, when it turns out knowing or not really didn't matter much if Duffy did not do anything wrong. I kind of suspected this was how the trial would go, since there are certain spending allowances for elected and appointed politicians, especially involving travel if they do not live in the area they represent. And if I remember correctly, Harper persuaded Duffy to take the senatorship even though Duffy wasn't crazy about the idea.


----------



## bse5150

fjnmusic said:


> And if I remember correctly, Harper persuaded Duffy to take the senatorship even though Duffy wasn't crazy about the idea.


Duffy had been asking for a Senate appointment for years. There was no reluctance on Duffy's part regarding the appointment. This is common knowledge for anyone that follows federal shenanigans.


----------



## Macfury

Your argument only holds if Harper knew anything about it. The most obvious conclusion is that he did not. 



fjnmusic said:


> It does make former PM Harper look like a bit of an idiot to claim he knew nothing, when it turns out knowing or not really didn't matter much if Duffy did not do anything wrong. I kind of suspected this was how the trial would go, since there are certain spending allowances for elected and appointed politicians, especially involving travel if they do not live in the area they represent. And if I remember correctly, Harper persuaded Duffy to take the senatorship even though Duffy wasn't crazy about the idea.


----------



## eMacMan

fjnmusic said:


> It does make former PM Harper look like a bit of an idiot to claim he knew nothing, when it turns out knowing or not really didn't matter much if Duffy did not do anything wrong. I kind of suspected this was how the trial would go, since there are certain spending allowances for elected and appointed politicians, especially involving travel if they do not live in the area they represent. And if I remember correctly, Harper persuaded Duffy to take the senatorship even though Duffy wasn't crazy about the idea.





Macfury said:


> Your argument only holds if Harper knew anything about it. The most obvious conclusion is that he did not.


Ah the old Sergeant Schultz gem. Still while I did not like The Harpoon, I have never ever accused him of being dumb or failing to maintain complete control of his menagerie. Saying he did not know implies he was both dumb and lax in his application micro-management skill. Not at all likely IMHO


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> 'No criminal intent': 20 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues
> 
> And the beat goes on ................. he beat the system. He fought the law ................ and HE won!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfbmjUQOFxs
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0sI6eFarFE
> 
> The court is expected to return at 2 p.m. ET with the ruling on the remaining 11 charges.


No he followed the system that was past down to him. That is the problem. The law thus far was clearly on his side.

If you want to blame anyone blame our forefather's who put the system in place.

They are the guilty one's. We are guilty of following the same outdated precedent.

But at least Harper tried to make Duffy pay. Wright, thinking he was doing the correct thing, gave the money to Duffy to repay Canadians when Duffy said he couldn't /wouldn't pay.

This whole ordeal has been much ado about little... Except that it revealed to Canadians that our Constitution should be reformed and we no longer need a Senate. At least not an un-elected Senate.


----------



## Dr.G.

"This whole ordeal has been much ado about little... Except that it revealed to Canadians that our Constitution should be reformed and we no longer need a Senate. At least not an un-elected Senate." Very good point, Steve. :clap:

Now, Duffy should get back that $90,000 check for his "pain and suffering".


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> 'No criminal intent': 20 charges dismissed as Mike Duffy ruling continues
> 
> And the beat goes on ................. he beat the system. He fought the law ................ and HE won!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfbmjUQOFxs
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0sI6eFarFE
> 
> The court is expected to return at 2 p.m. ET with the ruling on the remaining 11 charges.





screature said:


> No he followed the system that was past down to him. That is the problem. The law thus far was clearly on his side.
> 
> If you want to blame anyone blame our forefather's who put the system in place.
> 
> They are the guilty one's. We are guilty of following the same outdated precedent.
> 
> But at least Harper tried to make Duffy pay. Wright, thinking he was doing the correct thing, gave the money to Duffy to repay Canadians when Duffy said he couldn't /wouldn't pay.
> 
> This whole ordeal has been much ado about little... Except that it revealed to Canadians that our Constitution should be reformed and we no longer need a Senate. At least not an un-elected Senate.





> "If you want to blame anyone"


 Blame Harper and his minions in the PMO...the Judge in his ruling castigated them!



> "But at least Harper tried to make Duffy pay. Wright, thinking he was doing the correct thing, gave the money to Duffy to repay Canadians"


Wrongly Harper and the PMO tried to make Duffy the scapegoat. Harper and the PMO were not on side with the law. The Judge said and you said it! 



> "No he followed the system that was past down to him. That is the problem. The law thus far was clearly on his side."


----------



## SINC

Sask. Premier Brad Wall says he 'won't be signing' national carbon tax agreement - Saskatchewan - CBC News

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## SINC

Rex Murphy: Liberals play the race and misogyny cards to deflect questions about its $500-per-person fundraiser | National Post


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Sask. Premier Brad Wall says he 'won't be signing' national carbon tax agreement - Saskatchewan - CBC News
> 
> :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


Very relieved that there is still a bastion of common sense left while these screaming meemies are running the federal show.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Sask. Premier Brad Wall says he 'won't be signing' national carbon tax agreement - Saskatchewan - CBC News
> 
> :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


Even if you buy into the flawed Global Warming anti-science, the cost of trying to reduce manmade CO2 emissions sufficiently to reduce warming effects is roughly 50 times the cost of simply adapting to the change. So why anyone still wants to pursue the rob-the-poor carbon tax is beyond me.

From a Canadian perspective if Global Warming is indeed factual, won't CO2 emissions drop simply from the reduced fuel required to heat our homes? So again why mess with a carbon tax?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> From a Canadian perspective if Global Warming is indeed factual, won't CO2 emissions drop simply from the reduced fuel required to heat our homes? So again why mess with a carbon tax?


Because a carbon tax raises money for corrupt politicians to spend, and increases their control over the lives and habits of its citizens. Nothing else.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> Blame Harper and his minions in the PMO...the Judge in his ruling castigated them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrongly Harper and the PMO tried to make Duffy the scapegoat. Harper and the PMO were not on side with the law. The Judge said and you said it!



It is hard for some to accept the truth, even when it is staring them right in the face. Harper and his PMO's office were st fault here, not Senator Duffy. 31 counts dismissed.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> It is hard for some to accept the truth, even when it is staring them right in the face. Harper and his PMO's office were st fault here, not Senator Duffy. 31 counts dismissed.


It is simply a judgment by a judge--not a "truth."


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> Wrongly Harper and the PMO tried to make Duffy the scapegoat. Harper and the PMO were not on side with the law. The Judge said and you said it!





fjnmusic said:


> It is hard for some to accept the truth, even when it is staring them right in the face. Harper and his PMO's office were st fault here, not Senator Duffy. 31 counts dismissed.


Not all. You are wrong all accounts, the judge didn't say it nor did I.

Duffy was no scapegoat, nor a victim. He bilked the system for all it was worth. Again the system is the problem.

What exactly does "were st fault here" mean inquiring minds want to know?
Stephen Harper was the first PM to try to introduce some Senate reform in 2006, he got shot down by the Liberal dominated Senate of the time. So guess what he figured out that the Senate will not reform itself.

He deliberately left many Senate seats unfilled, he could have stacked the cards even more but he didn't. He left it up to whoever followed him to either put up or shut up. He and his party initiated reform of the Senate by introducing legislation that would limit Senator's terms, a very mild beginning of reform but the the Lib dominated Senate at the time didn't even want that much change.

So who the **** is to blame for not in anyway reforming the Senate.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It is simply a judgment by a judge--not a "truth."



A judgement by a judge becomes the truth. What color is the sky in your world?


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> A judgement by a judge becomes the truth. What color is the sky in your world?


Sky is blue in my world and the judgement by a judge becomes a sentence to be served by a guilty party. It has nothing to do with truth. It is fact and nothing more.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> A judgement by a judge becomes the truth. What color is the sky in your world?


So Omar Khadr is, in truth, a murderer by his own admission following a ruling by a judge. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Sky is blue in my world and the judgement by a judge becomes a sentence to be served by a guilty party. It has nothing to do with truth. It is fact and nothing more.



So a "fact" is not "truth"? Interesting. In your view is Mike Duffy exonerated or not? What do the facts tell you?

For example, from my perspective OJ Simpson was guilty as sin, but the fact is his guilt was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt in s criminal court of law. However, another fact is that he was found liable in a civil court of law, and then again found guilty of armed robbery a number of years later, resulting in a sentence for which he is still serving time today. In OJ's case, the "truth" would seem to lie somewhere between the many verdicts. 

In Duffy's case, he was found not guilty on all 31 counts. That's a whole lot of not guilty. And a great deal of blame was directed at the PMO's office under Stephen Harper at the time. What relevance do these facts have on the truth in this case do you think? Did the judge make an error? 31 times?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> So Omar Khadr is, in truth, a murderer by his own admission following a ruling by a judge. Thanks for clearing that up.



Why don't we see how his appeal goes first before casting that judgement? You know full well that a confession obtained under duress or by torture is not necessarily reliable. According to the letter of the law, yes, he is a murderer. However, there were also mitigating circumstances that may affect what level of homicide this act should be declared. Manslaughter is not equivalent to murder in the first degree for example, in the eyes of the law, and a homicide perpetrated by a child is not equivalent to one perpetrated by an adult, in the eyes of the law. Mr. Khadr has behaved impeccably so far after being released from prison. An elaborate ruse? Perhaps. But actions speak louder than words. We shall see.


----------



## screature

*So which is worse...?*

A private citizen donating $90K to a Senator to pay back what was owed to the taxpayers of Canada.

Or $40M dollars of undocumented public funds going straight to the Liberal Party of Canada?

I know which is worse.

Anyone else who chooses to defend the Libs over the Cons when it comes to this kind of accused malfeasance is just wrong IMO.

The numbers are not even remotely comparable yet the "hoopla" was disproportionate comparatively speaking.

No wonder those who are right of centre don't trust the media.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It is simply a judgment by a judge--not a "truth."


However under our judicial system a judgement by a judge---makes it is a proven "fact."

Conservatives seem to have a problem with facts when the facts contradict their ideology.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> However under our judicial system *a judgement by a judge---makes it is a proven "fact."*
> 
> Conservatives seem to have a problem with facts when the facts contradict their ideology.


No it does not. Educate yourself. That is why there is an appeal process. 

JC you don't seem to have even a basic understanding of our judicial system.

Not to mention judges have been wrong in their past with their rulings, over and over again.

I think that may be your most illogical and ill informed post yet... and that takes some doing.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> A private citizen donating $90K to a Senator to pay back what was owed to the taxpayers of Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> Or $40M dollars of undocumented public funds going straight to the Liberal Party of Canada?
> 
> 
> 
> I know which is worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else who chooses to defend the Libs over the Cons when it comes to this kind of accused malfeasance is just wrong IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers are not even remotely comparable yet the "hoopla" was disproportionate comparatively speaking.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder those who are right of centre don't trust the media.



Are you reading the same verdict as the rest of us? Seems to me that $90,000 was not even considered wrongful spending for a senator. There was nothing TO pay back except in the the mind of the PM and his office.


----------



## fjnmusic

BigDL said:


> However under our judicial system a judgement by a judge---makes it is a proven "fact."
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives seem to have a problem with facts when the facts contradict their ideology.



Exactement, as the French would say.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Why don't we see how his appeal goes first before casting that judgement? You know full well that a confession obtained under duress or by torture is not necessarily reliable. According to the letter of the law, yes, he is a murderer. However, there were also mitigating circumstances that may affect what level of homicide this act should be declared. Manslaughter is not equivalent to murder in the first degree for example, in the eyes of the law, and a homicide perpetrated by a child is not equivalent to one perpetrated by an adult, in the eyes of the law. Mr. Khadr has behaved impeccably so far after being released from prison. An elaborate ruse? Perhaps. But actions speak louder than words. We shall see.


A judge said it was true, so it is now a fact.


----------



## BigDL

screature said:


> No it does not. Educate yourself. That is why there is an appeal process.
> 
> JC you don't seem to have even a basic understanding of our judicial system.
> 
> Not to mention judges have been wrong in their past with their rulings, over and over again.
> 
> I think that may be your most illogical and ill informed post yet... and that takes some doing.


APPEAL????

Who is appealing what? Or perhaps the question that should be asked.

What decision is under appeal by way of your conjecture?


----------



## eMacMan

To be fair. The Harpoons only concern in this whole mess was trying to minimize the damage done to his image. His meddling (or as some claim; the meddling done on his behalf, and at his insistence, but without his knowledge) turned a mudhole into a quagmire. Perhaps a very fitting legacy for this PM.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> To be fair. The Harpoons only concern in this whole mess was trying to minimize the damage done to his image. His meddling (or as some claim; the meddling done on his behalf, and at his insistence, but without his knowledge) turned a mudhole into a quagmire. Perhaps a very fitting legacy for this PM.



Well said, good sir.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> APPEAL????
> 
> Who is appealing what? Or perhaps the question that should be asked.
> 
> What decision is under appeal by way of your conjecture?


Good god man you really don't understand the judicial process do you let alone Parliamentary process.

The Crown has plenty of time to make an appeal now that JT is in power it is highly unlikely. But an appeal is simply an option in our judicial process that exists both for the Crown and the accused... do some reading. Like I said educate yourself.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Well said, good sir.


See this is what MF was talking about and what you don't seem to understand.

If you agree with the post above you, you should first post







and then your post otherwise it is just a matter of congratulating yourself and not the post before you. It is basic syntax.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> See this is what MF was talking about and what you don't seem to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> If you agree with the post above you, you should first post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and then your post otherwise it is just a matter of congratulating yourself and not the post before you. It is basic syntax.





This seriously bothers you? Sorry to offend thee, Emoji Nazi.


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> This seriously bothers you? Sorry to offend thee, Emoji Nazi.


There you go again Frank. Losing the debate? Invoke Hitler. Tired old admission of self failure.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> There you go again Frank. Losing the debate? Invoke Hitler. Tired old admission of self failure.



Ever heard of Grammar Nazi? More like that than Hitler was what I was suggesting. Nice try, though.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Ever heard of Grammar Nazi? More like that than Hitler was what I was suggesting. Nice try, though.


Yeah we've heard of it. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it.


----------



## eMacMan

Well I am sure the idiots, who truly believed the PMs talking PDF about FATCA, never anticipated this. Hell even I was caught off balance by this one!

Baby girl drawn into CRA-IRS information sharing controversy – iPolitics

Tell me again how thanks to the FATCA-IGA the banks will not report RESPs. While I love a good fairy tale that one is a total fail!

Lynn Swanson drafted a superb letter on behalf of the baby.
The Isaac Brock Society | Baby Elle’s FATCA Letter (Lynne Swanson’s good work)…


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> This seriously bothers you? Sorry to offend thee, Emoji Nazi.





SINC said:


> There you go again Frank. Losing the debate? Invoke Hitler. Tired old admission of self failure.





fjnmusic said:


> Ever heard of Grammar Nazi? More like that than Hitler was what I was suggesting. Nice try, though.





Macfury said:


> Yeah we've heard of it. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it.


So I am a Nazi now?

Thank you for illustrating,once again Godwin's law:



> Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism. The first utterance of such comparison is called the Godwin point of the discussion.
> 
> Promulgated by American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990,[2] Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions.[4] It is now applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric.[5][6]


It bothers me that you purport to support the post before you but only are actually giving a "thumbs up" to your post in point of fact.

If you support the post before yours give the thumbs up first and then make your point afterwards, because as I said before basic syntax indicates that you are only giving yourself praise and not the poster before you as MF pointed out to you many posts ago.

It also bothers me because you claim to be a teacher who corrects other people's work but cannot receive correction yourself without calling the other person a Nazi.

I don't know where your ill humour, nastiness, belligerence and rudeness comes from and I seriously don't care. But it would be preferable to those here IMO if you would cease and desist as your posts, as you are making them now and for quite a while, do not contribute anything positive here but just make for it to be a very negative place to be.

You almost never have anything good to say, just pure negativity all the time. You get personal a lot of the time when it is not necessary. Just stick to logic and facts and stop insulting people, that would be a start. No edict or rule, just a suggestion so as to make this place more pleasant. You are obviously free to post whatever you want, but don't expect others not to reply in kind.

I suspect you will have other personal insults in the ready for me even though I was just speaking logically and trying to be positive even though I suspect you will receive them as as being negative. Which truth be told they were criticism, but about your manner of posting and not about you.

There is a huge difference.

At this point it seems to me there is no possible reconciliation and we will just have to agree to disagree... That would be the most polite and diplomatic resolution to our dispute that I can imagine.

Time to move on IMO. Peace out.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

What a joke...

Trudeau knows climate deal’s a fraud



> When Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ceremonially signs the United Nations' Paris climate treaty in New York on Friday, it will be the same farce that occurred when Prime Minister Jean Chretien signed the UN’s Kyoto climate treaty in 1998.
> 
> At that time, Chretien knew Canada couldn't achieve the industrial greenhouse gas (GHG) emission reduction targets he was agreeing to -- confirmed by his top political aide Eddie Goldenberg in 2007, after the Liberals lost power in 2006.
> 
> *Trudeau knows it, too.*


M'bold.

More:



> *A 291 Mt cut by 2030 would mean shutting down the equivalent of the oil and gas sector (179 Mt), the agricultural sector (75 Mt) and half the electricity sector (42.5 Mt) in less than 15 years.*


M'bold.

But it's all OK. I'm sure all the low-information types who voted for him will give him a passing grade because he's got great hair & interesting socks...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> But it's all OK. I'm sure all the low-information types who voted for him will give him a passing grade because he's got great hair & interesting socks...


I've said it before... "progressives" are judged according to stated intention, not results.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I've said it before... "progressives" are judged according to stated intention, not results.


Sad but too true...


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> So I am a Nazi now?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for illustrating,once again Godwin's law:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It bothers me that you purport to support the post before you but only are actually giving a "thumbs up" to your post in point of fact.
> 
> 
> 
> If you support the post before yours give the thumbs up first and then make your point afterwards, because as I said before basic syntax indicates that you are only giving yourself praise and not the poster before you as MF pointed out to you many posts ago.
> 
> 
> 
> It also bothers me because you claim to be a teacher who corrects other people's work but cannot receive correction yourself without calling the other person a Nazi.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know where your ill humour, nastiness, belligerence and rudeness comes from and I seriously don't care. But it would be preferable to those here IMO if you would cease and desist as your posts, as you are making them now and for quite a while, do not contribute anything positive here but just make for it to be a very negative place to be.
> 
> 
> 
> You almost never have anything good to say, just pure negativity all the time. You get personal a lot of the time when it is not necessary. Just stick to logic and facts and stop insulting people, that would be a start. No edict or rule, just a suggestion so as to make this place more pleasant. You are obviously free to post whatever you want, but don't expect others not to reply in kind.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect you will have other personal insults in the ready for me even though I was just speaking logically and trying to be positive even though I suspect you will receive them as as being negative. Which truth be told they were criticism, but about your manner of posting and not about you.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point it seems to me there is no possible reconciliation and we will just have to agree to disagree... That would be the most polite and diplomatic resolution to our dispute that I can imagine.
> 
> 
> 
> Time to move on IMO. Peace out.



Grammar Nazi. Or Emoji Nazi. Not a real Nazi. There's a difference. 

http://youtu.be/N4vf8N6GpdM


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Grammar Nazi. Or Emoji Nazi. Not a real Nazi. There's a difference.
> 
> http://youtu.be/N4vf8N6GpdM


Nazi is Nazi, however you choose to defend yourself.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Grammar Nazi. Or Emoji Nazi. Not a real Nazi. There's a difference.


It simply ensures that the true horror of Nazi-ism is watered down to the level of Internet meme.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It simply ensures that the true horror of Nazi-ism is watered down to the level of Internet meme.



Perhaps. However, the Grammar Nazi meme is nothing new; it's been around the Internet for years. I just added the Emoji Nazi reference, for people who insist on controlling the way others choose to use emojis in their communications.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, you continue to weaken the meaning of the term by using it--even if it's been around for years.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting loophole.

Canada’s subsidizing foreign millionaires



> According to the Economist, Vancouver is the most expensive city in North America and the second-least affordable housing market in the world, after Hong Kong.
> 
> The average detached home now sells for over $2.2 million.
> 
> While wealthy foreign investors swoop in to buy homes that often sit empty, the city has become unaffordable for everyday people.
> 
> What’s going on in Vancouver, and will the phenomenon spread to other cities in Canada?
> 
> The problem, in part, can be blamed on Canada’s immigration rules — particularly the Immigration Investor Program.


----------



## Vandave

FeXL said:


> Interesting loophole.


'Average people' can't afford a house? I have a good income and I think I'm about the top 1% or so. My wife is a professional as well. We can't afford a house in Vancouver. Ok, a bank would lend us the money, but I refuse to take on a million dollar mortgage.

There is something seriously wrong in this City.


----------



## Macfury

Vandave said:


> 'Average people' can't afford a house? I have a good income and I think I'm about the top 1% or so. My wife is a professional as well. We can't afford a house in Vancouver. Ok, a bank would lend us the money, but I refuse to take on a million dollar mortgage.
> 
> There is something seriously wrong in this City.


It's already true in Toronto. Real estate agents openly admit that the housing market is being driven by Iranian and Asian investors who are buying their second, third and fourth houses in the city. Likewise, the unbuilt condo stock is largely being snapped up by outside buyers.


----------



## FeXL

More on Rachel's compatriot's LEAP manifesto.

Think before you LEAP



> Of course, Klein and friends are in cahoots with many other like-minded individuals and organisations that claim that “it is feasible for Canada to get 100% of its electricity from renewable resources within two decades.”


More:



> Dream on, Baby!
> 
> The idea that Canada even could become such an utopian (energy-starved) “paradise” is entirely misguided. Are Naomi, Avi, and David going to spend weeks every fall in the bush to collect and harvest firewood to heat their homes in winter? Not likely. Will they be traveling across the continent by rickshaw or overseas by rowboat? Not likely. Will they want to get “clean” electricity when they need it, or only when the sun shines or the wind blows? Not likely. Or will they use the new “pedal-power” electricity-generating bicycle-like devices studied by the German environment ministry (see picture nearby)? Not likely either.
> 
> There are three major problems with all such “green and clean” ideas.


Further:



> *Clearly, Klein et al.’s fantasies about “green and clean” are absurd.*


M'bold.

Yep.


----------



## Vandave

I love it when losers lecture to the world like they have it all figured out. If you wanted to change the world, maybe don't major is some useless field you idiots. The people who change the world today are guys like Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and the thousands of hard working STEM majors doing real things. Writing a fantasy manifesto does nothing to change the world.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on Quantum Computing's latest expert, the hairdo himself, ladies & gentlemen, PM Pompadour!!!

(hiss, spit, boo)

How Smart Is Justin Trudeau?



> I go on at some length about the quantum imbroglio because it furnishes an excellent example of Trudeau’s glitzy superficiality. A skin-deep performer, he is good at looking the look and talking the talk, but at precious little else. Trudeau’s manifold “accomplishments” surely have nothing to do with the intelligence and wisdom needed to govern a G7 nation. Mastering yoga poses, exhibiting snowboarding techniques, horsing around in a boxing ring [oh, I would have liked a chance at that opportunity...], stripping for a ladies’ charity function, or whiffling (in his case, glibly and without comprehension) on quantum computing are completely unrelated to an understanding of the thorny political and economic issues that go with responsible leadership in the turmoil of national and international affairs—apart from the fact that the dignity of statesmanship has gone by the board.
> 
> The truth is, I suspect, that *Trudeau’s public performances in the physical and intellectual domains, as well as his documented appeal to female effusiveness, is a vivid expression of his followers’ utter lack of political sobriety, intellectual acumen and emotional maturity. That a country could give its support and a 66 per cent approval rating to a preening charlatan boggles the mind and beggars the imagination...*


M'bold.

Nailed it...


----------



## Dr.G.

My wallet, Barbados or my basement are my destinations of choice for my sheltered money, depending upon the currency.

Canadian corporations kept $40 billion in offshore tax havens last year: tax group - Business - CBC News

Inversions, Panama schemes mean the ordinary wage-earner gets stuck paying the taxes: Don Pittis - Business - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

*Another Harpoon Strike*

Oops turns out that those of us who claimed the Harpoon would misrepresent terrorism to advance his personal agenda may have known what we were talking about.

Did Canada brand Bellingham woman 'terrorist' to impress US? - seattlepi.com


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Oops turns out that those of us who claimed the Harpoon would misrepresent terrorism to advance his personal agenda may have known what we were talking about.
> 
> Did Canada brand Bellingham woman 'terrorist' to impress US? - seattlepi.com





> The lawsuit does not appear to have been served. A trial date has not yet been sent.


Jeesh, nothing but accusations and hearsay, no formal filing of a law suit or trial. Just more BS that you always link to, to try to support your conspiracy theory claims. No wonder I always doubt your claims because they are not based on facts but on pure speculation.

The case that you sighted above isn't even in the courts yet, but somehow in your delusional mind it is Harper's fault. 

Seek help.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Jeesh, nothing but accusations and hearsay, no formal filing of a law suit or trial. Just more BS that you always link to, to try to support your conspiracy theory claims. No wonder I always doubt your claims because they are not based on facts but on pure speculation.
> 
> The case that you sighted above isn't even in the courts yet, but somehow in your delusional mind it is Harper's fault.
> 
> Seek help.


Yep the gov just hands out $10,000,000 to any American who asks, for no reason whatsoever.



> Steve de Jaray received settlement from the Canadian government reported to amount to $10 million Canadian. Canadian taxpayers had to wait more than a year to learn their government had paid Steve de Jaray in a secret settlement. Perienne de Jaray says she is still waiting for an apology.


----------



## Dr.G.

Christy Clark's private ‘allowance' from B.C. Liberals is no joke - The Globe and Mail

Not a smart move regardless of the province and regardless of the party.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Christy Clark's private ‘allowance' from B.C. Liberals is no joke - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Not a smart move regardless of the province and regardless of the party.


Well one half of one percent is a pretty paltry commission, for a devoted and loyal party whore. I would suggest that Ms. Christie is certainly guilty of undervaluing her graftuitius services.


----------



## SINC

Today's Liberals Could Ruin Canada


----------



## SINC

Yep, and soon . . .

Justin Trudeau Must Come Clean About Carbon Emissions


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Yep the gov just hands out $10,000,000 to any American who asks, for no reason whatsoever.


So what *exactly* does this have to do with Harper? His name isn't even mentioned.

If you think that any PM is involved in such minutia, once again you are seriously delusional. He had much bigger fish to fry. The various departments and agencies were doing their own work and are responsible.

By analogy based on your analysis, if a kid is selling crack on school grounds that means the principal is at fault and knew all about it and just turned a blind eye.

As you always do, you are seriously stretching. If you don't already practice Yoga, I think you should because I think you would be very good at it.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yep, and soon . . .
> 
> Justin Trudeau Must Come Clean About Carbon Emissions


Not in the way that the writer suggests--he wants him to commit to massive carbon reductions. In this case I would rather see Justin taking selfies instead of committing to any inane actions.


----------



## Dr.G.

With twice the debt of California, Ontario is now the world's most indebted sub-sovereign borrower | Financial Post

And here I thought that things were bad here in Nova Scotia.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> With twice the debt of California, Ontario is now the world's most indebted sub-sovereign borrower | Financial Post
> 
> And here I thought that things were bad here in Nova Scotia.


Toronto always benefits from Liberal largesse, so they continue to use their voting blocs to re-elect incompetents like Kathleen Wynne.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> So what *exactly* does this have to do with Harper? His name isn't even mentioned.
> 
> If you think that any PM is involved in such minutia, once again you are seriously delusional. He had much bigger fish to fry. The various departments and agencies were doing their own work and are responsible.
> 
> By analogy based on your analysis, if a kid is selling crack on school grounds that means the principal is at fault and knew all about it and just turned a blind eye.
> 
> As you always do, you are seriously stretching. If you don't already practice Yoga, I think you should because I think you would be very good at it.


The Harpoon was the PM, who perverted Canadian constitution and law in the name of fighting terrorism. It was under the Harpoon's watch that Canadian authorities smeared the woman and her father with the terrorist label. He went out of his way to create the atmosphere and therefore must bear at least some responsibility.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Toronto always benefits from Liberal largesse, so they continue to use their voting blocs to re-elect incompetents like Kathleen Wynne.


Still, how could the debt get this big?????????


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Still, how could the debt get this big?????????


Profligate spending on anything and everything, with little or none of it building up the economy. This debt includes the sale of Ontario Hydro infrastructure. The debt level was well known when Wynne was handed a majority, thanks to Toronto voters.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Profligate spending on anything and everything, with little or none of it building up the economy. This debt includes the sale of Ontario Hydro infrastructure. The debt level was well known when Wynne was handed a majority, thanks to Toronto voters.


Did the sale of Ontario Hydro not bring in big bucks to bring down the debt?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Did the sale of Ontario Hydro not bring in big bucks to bring down the debt?


Yes it did. A drop in the bucket.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Did the sale of Ontario Hydro not bring in big bucks to bring down the debt?


Privatization of state assets "in order to pay down the debt" is used as an _*excuse*_ for privatization. And somehow, the money never seems to actually make it into the right bank account for debt payment. Nova Scotia Power's privatization in 1992 is a textbook case of this.


----------



## CubaMark

_*What kind of message does this send?*_

*English-speaking Squires to oversee Franco-Manitoban affairs*

Residents in St. Boniface are raising questions about Premier Brian Pallister's choice to oversee francophone affairs in Manitoba — because the minister he chose does not speak French. 

Rochelle Squires is a unilingual anglophone who represents the Winnipeg electoral district of Riel. She has a background in communications, journalism and fine arts and along with francophone affairs, she will oversee sport, culture and heritage as well as status of women in Pallister's new cabinet.

French Canadian Daniel Perron expressed frustration with Squires' suitability. He said Winnipeg and Manitoba have to "wake up."

"It's a problem because she has to represent one of the major cultural things in Canada which is the French Canadian culture," said Perron, who is originally from Quebec.​(CBC)


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> The Harpoon was the PM, who perverted Canadian constitution and law in the name of fighting terrorism. It was under the Harpoon's watch that Canadian authorities smeared the woman and her father with the terrorist label. *He went out of his way to create the atmosphere and therefore must bear at least some responsibility.*


Nope he didn't. He created an atmosphere of security. If the various agencies over step their bounds then it is all on them.

Was the FLQ responsible for Trudeau enacting the War Measures Act?? Not in the least, Trudeau made that decision all on his own. Unlike the case that you are talking about. Harper had nothing to do with it. Trudeau was a dictator, Harper was a policy maker.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> _*What kind of message does this send?*_
> 
> *English-speaking Squires to oversee Franco-Manitoban affairs*
> 
> Residents in St. Boniface are raising questions about Premier Brian Pallister's choice to oversee francophone affairs in Manitoba — because the minister he chose does not speak French.
> 
> Rochelle Squires is a unilingual anglophone who represents the Winnipeg electoral district of Riel. She has a background in communications, journalism and fine arts and along with francophone affairs, she will oversee sport, culture and heritage as well as status of women in Pallister's new cabinet.
> 
> French Canadian Daniel Perron expressed frustration with Squires' suitability. He said Winnipeg and Manitoba have to "wake up."
> 
> "It's a problem because she has to represent one of the major cultural things in Canada which is the French Canadian culture," said Perron, who is originally from Quebec.​(CBC)


It doesn't send any message to speak of as she is well qualified to do the job and a local resident.

That's more than I can say for too many of Trudeau's cabinet from Quebec who stumble with poor english language skills, yet I am expected to be okay with them serving me as an english speaking western Canadian. In fairness, not unique to the head pompadore as it has been ever thus all my life.

I say suck it up to Manitoba francophones. Now you know how it is to be treated equally with the rest of us.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> It doesn't send any message to speak of as she is well qualified to do the job and a local resident.
> 
> That's more than I can say for too many of Trudeau's cabinet from Quebec who stumble with poor english language skills, yet I am expected to be okay with them serving me as an english speaking western Canadian. In fairness, not unique to the head pompadore as it has been ever thus all my life.
> 
> I say suck it up to Manitoba francophones. Now you know how it is to be treated equally with the rest of us.


Ever have the joyous experience of dealing with Quebec government offices that deal entirely in the French language, from phone messages on down? I'm used to it and the Manitoba folk can get used to it too.


----------



## SINC

When I get anyone from government or the private sector on the phone whom I cannot understand, I simply tell them firmly that their english skills are not good enough to provide me with an acceptable service level and to put someone on the line who can actually speak english. I can only ask (pardon?) so many times and wasting more time repeating the word is futile.


----------



## Dr.G.

"English Canada was partly founded by American loyalists fleeing the revolution. Tens of thousands of Americans moved to Canada to avoid being drafted during the Vietnam War, enriching Canadian society (and helping tilt us politically to the left). A Trump victory could convince many thousands of well-educated, highly-skilled and socially tolerant Americans to come north. Canada would be better for having them."

An interesting item in the Globe and Mail. I don't see the great influx of Americans here, but we could use an immigration boost here in Nova Scotia. We shall see.

Three ways Trump would hurt Canada and one way he would help - The Globe and Mail


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> "English Canada was partly founded by American loyalists fleeing the revolution. Tens of thousands of Americans moved to Canada to avoid being drafted during the Vietnam War, enriching Canadian society (and helping tilt us politically to the left). A Trump victory could convince many thousands of well-educated, highly-skilled and socially tolerant Americans to come north. Canada would be better for having them."
> 
> An interesting item in the Globe and Mail. I don't see the great influx of Americans here, but we could use an immigration boost here in Nova Scotia. We shall see.
> 
> Three ways Trump would hurt Canada and one way he would help - The Globe and Mail


Thanks to the FATCA - IGA those fleeing Americans would not become Canadians, only Americans on temporary loan from the IRS. Escaping the US of A is far more difficult than escaping the Soviet Union or Red China ever was. The Red Tap Web stretches out and drags you back however hard you try to escape.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Nope he didn't. He created an atmosphere of security. If the various agencies over step their bounds then it is all on them.
> 
> Was the FLQ responsible for Trudeau enacting the War Measures Act?? Not in the least, Trudeau made that decision all on his own. Unlike the case that you are talking about. Harper had nothing to do with it. Trudeau was a dictator, Harper was a policy maker.


Nope compared to dying at the hands of terrorists, Canadians are a couple orders of magnitude more likely to drown in their own car, be gunned down by a cop, or even be struck down by lightning. As with Jews in pre WWII Germany, fear of terrorism is being used to advance unforgivable assaults on civil liberties around the world. Josef and Adolf would be so very proud! Jefferson and Franklin not so much.

The Harpoon promoted fear of terrorists to advance passing police-state enabling bills such as C-24, and C-51. His, or perhaps his Über Meißters, machinations directly contributed to false accusations against the woman and her father.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Thanks to the FATCA - IGA those fleeing Americans would not become Canadians, only Americans on temporary loan from the IRS. Escaping the US of A is far more difficult than escaping the Soviet Union or Red China ever was. The Red Tap Web stretches out and drags you back however hard you try to escape.


Yes, there would be that tie unless they renounce their citizenship ............. a route I would never take.


----------



## Macfury

Why would they be highly skilled? And tolerant? They would be leaving a country because of their own intolerance for conflicting opinions.

QUOTE=Dr.G.;2221434]"English Canada was partly founded by American loyalists fleeing the revolution. Tens of thousands of Americans moved to Canada to avoid being drafted during the Vietnam War, enriching Canadian society (and helping tilt us politically to the left). A Trump victory could convince many thousands of well-educated, highly-skilled and socially tolerant Americans to come north. Canada would be better for having them."

An interesting item in the Globe and Mail. I don't see the great influx of Americans here, but we could use an immigration boost here in Nova Scotia. We shall see.

Three ways Trump would hurt Canada and one way he would help - The Globe and Mail[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Why would they be highly skilled? And tolerant? They would be leaving a country because of their own intolerance for conflicting opinions.
> 
> QUOTE=Dr.G.;2221434]"English Canada was partly founded by American loyalists fleeing the revolution. Tens of thousands of Americans moved to Canada to avoid being drafted during the Vietnam War, enriching Canadian society (and helping tilt us politically to the left). A Trump victory could convince many thousands of well-educated, highly-skilled and socially tolerant Americans to come north. Canada would be better for having them."
> 
> An interesting item in the Globe and Mail. I don't see the great influx of Americans here, but we could use an immigration boost here in Nova Scotia. We shall see.
> 
> Three ways Trump would hurt Canada and one way he would help - The Globe and Mail


[/QUOTE]

Not sure who would come. I know some high profile people have threatened to come to Canada, especially some Hollywood types, but when they see out tax rate and the climate, I think that they will go elsewhere.


----------



## Macfury

> Not sure who would come. I know some high profile people have threatened to come to Canada, especially some Hollywood types, but when they see out tax rate and the climate, I think that they will go elsewhere.


They can keep Lena Dunham and Rosie O'Donnell!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> They can keep Lena Dunham and Rosie O'Donnell!


Whoopie Goldberg, Susan Sarandon and Bill Maher ............... or so they say.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> Whoopie Goldberg, Susan Sarandon and Bill Maher ............... or so they say.


As much as they would like to claim they were fleeing they would have to leave their bank accounts behind. Otherwise the cross border accounting vultures would deplete their financial reserves in short order. Finding someone to fill out all those 8938s and 3520s does not come cheap.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> As much as they would like to claim they were fleeing they would have to leave their bank accounts behind. Otherwise the cross border accounting vultures would deplete their financial reserves in short order. Finding someone to fill out all those 8938s and 3520s does not come cheap.


This is why I keep my US money in the basement .............. nobody knows and nobody can touch it .................... :greedy:


----------



## Dr.G.

RBC to turn over files on Panama Papers clients to Canada Revenue Agency - Business - CBC News

All the more reason to deal with banks abroad. :greedy:


----------



## Captstn

Can I apply for grant/loan from the bank of Dr.G ?


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> They can keep Lena Dunham and Rosie O'Donnell!


Most of these Hollywood social justice warriors are threatening to leave over Donald's blatant racism against Mexicans. The funny thing is not one of them is threatening to move to Mexico. Wonder why? They have beautiful beaches and tropical weather. Cost of living would be great. Canada is frozen hell 6 months of the year.


----------



## Dr.G.

Captstn said:


> Can I apply for grant/loan from the bank of Dr.G ?


Well, our loans start at prime minus 1/2%, so we can beat the banks on most sorts of loans.


----------



## Dr.G.

MacGuiver said:


> Most of these Hollywood social justice warriors are threatening to leave over Donald's blatant racism against Mexicans. The funny thing is not one of them is threatening to move to Mexico. Wonder why? They have beautiful beaches and tropical weather. Cost of living would be great. Canada is frozen hell 6 months of the year.


Come to Nova Scotia ............... come for a visit, stay for a lifetime. :clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

On this day 71 years ago, Canada liberated the Netherlands - National | Globalnews.ca

This is why there are so many tulips in Ottawa .............. thank you gifts from a grateful nation. :clap:


----------



## CubaMark

MacGuiver said:


> ....not one of them is threatening to move to Mexico. Wonder why? They have beautiful beaches and tropical weather. Cost of living would be great. Canada is frozen hell 6 months of the year.


Might have something to do with the prevalence of human heads found laying around in coolers...


----------



## Macfury

The wealthy hire head cooler removal services.



CubaMark said:


> Might have something to do with the prevalence of human heads found laying around in coolers...


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> On this day 71 years ago, Canada liberated the Netherlands - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> This is why there are so many tulips in Ottawa .............. thank you gifts from a grateful nation. :clap:


Remembering my father's cousin, who died in the _Battle of the Scheld_t, 1 Nov 1944.

Albin Sumara - The Canadian Virtual War Memorial - Veterans Affairs Canada

In the last week of September 1944, the Allies held the city of Antwerp, but the Germans held both shores of the Scheldt estuary, so that the port of Antwerp could not be used. 

The task of clearing the southern shore of the estuary was allotted to the 3rd Canadian Division, aided by the 4th Canadian Armoured Division and the 52nd Division. Their operations lasted from October until the beginning of November 1944. 

By 3rd November the Germans had been cleared from the north-west corner of Belgium and the south shore of the Scheldt was free. There had been fierce fighting for two weeks for the crossing of the Leopold Canal. The majority of the men buried at Adegem died during the operations for the clearance of the south bank of the Scheldt;​


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Remembering my father's cousin, who died in the _Battle of the Scheld_t, 1 Nov 1944.
> 
> Albin Sumara - The Canadian Virtual War Memorial - Veterans Affairs Canada
> 
> In the last week of September 1944, the Allies held the city of Antwerp, but the Germans held both shores of the Scheldt estuary, so that the port of Antwerp could not be used.
> 
> The task of clearing the southern shore of the estuary was allotted to the 3rd Canadian Division, aided by the 4th Canadian Armoured Division and the 52nd Division. Their operations lasted from October until the beginning of November 1944.
> 
> By 3rd November the Germans had been cleared from the north-west corner of Belgium and the south shore of the Scheldt was free. There had been fierce fighting for two weeks for the crossing of the Leopold Canal. The majority of the men buried at Adegem died during the operations for the clearance of the south bank of the Scheldt;​


:clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

I am not on the list. Lucky me ................. 


Search the Panama Papers database - Business - CBC News

Search results for "Marc S. Glassman" 

Offshore Entities (0) 
Officers (0) 
Intermediaries (0) 
Addresses (0) 

No results found


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> I am not on the list. Lucky me .................
> 
> 
> Search the Panama Papers database - Business - CBC News
> 
> Search results for "Marc S. Glassman"
> 
> Offshore Entities (0)
> Officers (0)
> Intermediaries (0)
> Addresses (0)
> 
> No results found


Dr.G., no pillaging of your post intended - I just added this to the International Political Thread without attributing your contribution. _mea culpa!_


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Dr.G., no pillaging of your post intended - I just added this to the International Political Thread without attributing your contribution. _mea culpa!_


No problem, Mark. Are you on the list????


----------



## rgray

*Good News!!!!*


----------



## Macfury

Census has its own topic, rgray.


----------



## rgray

Macfury said:


> Census has its own topic, rgray.


You do realise that the issue in the cartoon is NOT primarily the cansus do you not???

The issue issue is Harpo's policies!!!


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> You do realise that the issue in the cartoon is NOT primarily the cansus do you not???
> 
> The issue issue is Harpo's policies!!!


I don't mind rgray--just pointing out that we have a census topic. It's well understood that the Liberal version of the census reflects their support for invasion of privacy and heavy handed rurlership.


----------



## eMacMan

I applauded and continue to applaud the Cons making the long census voluntary. 

However I suspect that it was merely an attempt to divert attention from their relentless pursuit of police state enabling legislation. Bills C-51 and C-24(sec. 5) are offered up as proof. Also the Internet Anti-Privacy Bill, originally introduced by Paul Martin and finally passed by the Harpoon on his third attempt.

Sadly the Younger has not only failed to repeal C-51 and the Internet-Anti-Privacy Bill, but has re-instated the compulsory long form. His minor modification of C-24 is welcome, but he certainly has not extended his Canadian is a Canadian theme to include the million+ Canadian Citizens branded as: "Slaves on temporary loan to Canada from the IRS"


----------



## Dr.G.

Love at first flight.

Maple Match links Canadians looking for love with single Americans fleeing Trump - Calgary - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> No problem, Mark. Are you on the list????


Given my permanent condition of abject poverty, that would be a no. XX)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Given my permanent condition of abject poverty, that would be a no. XX)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

On PM Pompadour's electoral reform.

Michael Den Tandt: Liberals’ electoral reform scheme that seemed so bold during campaign falling flat on arrival



> The Trudeau government’s sweeping plan for electoral reform, which struck just the right note of idealistic boldness on the campaign trail, is dead on arrival. The Liberals are now trapped in a classic pincer of their own making — damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Conservative strategists have been handed a gift that will keep on giving, possibly for years to come.
> 
> Here’s the top line: it is impossible, not to mention contradictory and hypocritical, to sell a program of democratic renewal that is not itself democratic. The beatific reassurances of the smiling Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef notwithstanding, no one but Liberals will believe it to be anything but a power grab. Critics will howl; there will be no consensus. There will be division, followed by failure.
> 
> More concretely, it is deeply irrational, if not downright nutty, to assert, as the Liberals are now doing, that they have a decisive mandate to scrap Canada’s 150-year-old first-past-the-post system, when they draw their authority to govern from a vote taken under that very system.
> 
> It’s a vicious catch-22. The system is so broken, so dysfunctional and anti-democratic, that fixing it up the old-fashioned way, through the painful process of citizens casting ballots, is a risk that cannot, must not, be taken. But if Canadian electoral democracy is so dysfunctional, then the Liberals’ 184-seat majority, on a popular vote last Oct. 19 of just 39 per cent, is a symptom of that dysfunction. *Therefore there is no mandate. *


M'bold.

Facts are such...trivialities, however.


----------



## Dr.G.

CRA stalls Conrad Black mansion sale with liens over unpaid taxes - The Globe and Mail

The CRA should back away and let His Lordship enjoy his peace and quiet.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> On this day 71 years ago, Canada liberated the Netherlands - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> This is why there are so many tulips in Ottawa .............. thank you gifts from a grateful nation. :clap:


Indeed. This knowledge should be part of every secondary level Canadian History course.

It is important that our children understand the significance, thus the knowledge can continue to be passed down from generation to generation.

IMO a course in Canadian History in the graduating year of all school boards around he county with a passing grade should be mandatory in order to graduate.

I know this will probably never happen in reality, but I believe it is an ideal that should be pursued by the various governments and school boards.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Indeed. This knowledge should be part of every secondary level Canadian History course.
> 
> It is important that our children understand the significance, thus the knowledge can continue to be passed down from generation to generation.


Very true, Steve. It is touching to see how Dutch children care for and lay flowers on the grave sites of the Canadians who died while liberating Holland. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Very true, Steve. *It is touching to see how Dutch children care for and lay flowers on the grave sites of the Canadians who died while liberating Holland*. Paix, mon ami.


Lest we forget.

Let us make sure Canadian children don't forget.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Lest we forget.
> 
> Let us make sure Canadian children don't forget.


:clap::clap::clap: Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I applauded and continue to applaud the Cons making the long census voluntary.
> 
> However I suspect that it was merely an attempt to divert attention from their relentless pursuit of police state enabling legislation. Bills C-51 and C-24(sec. 5) are offered up as proof. Also the Internet Anti-Privacy Bill, originally introduced by Paul Martin and finally passed by the Harpoon on his third attempt.
> 
> Sadly the Younger has not only failed to repeal C-51 and the Internet-Anti-Privacy Bill, but has re-instated the compulsory long form. His minor modification of C-24 is welcome, *but he certainly has not extended his Canadian is a Canadian theme to include the million+ Canadian Citizens branded as: "Slaves on temporary loan to Canada from the IRS*"


*Hockey pucks! *

You and others like you have that have dual citizenship with the US are another class of citizens of this country. Cut and dry. The rest of us who have only one citizenship, Canada, do not have the same privileges as you or the problems that you have.

You should not expect that Canada should be a tax haven for dual citizens of the US and Canada which is essentially what you are suggesting.

You as a dual citizen have to abide by the tax laws of this country and the US. Period.

So stop your bellyaching, and just abide by the laws. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. It is the same for all law abiding citizens of Canada and the US.

Instead of griping about is here you would be better off griping about it to the US Government as I have said to you multiple times. *They* were the ones who created the "problem" for you and so you should contact them.

Even if the Government of Canada did not agree, as dual citizen would still be beholden to abide by the tax laws of the US.

So once again you should not expect that Canada should be a tax haven for dual citizens of the US and Canada.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> *Hockey pucks! *
> 
> You and others like you have that have dual citizenship with the US are another class of citizens of this country. Cut and dry. The rest of us who have only one citizenship, Canada, do not have the same privileges as you or the problems that you have.
> 
> You should not expect that Canada should be a tax haven for dual citizens of the US and Canada which is essentially what you are suggesting.
> 
> You as a dual citizen have to abide by the tax laws of this country and the US. Period.
> 
> So stop your bellyaching, and just abide by the laws. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. It is the same for all law abiding citizens of Canada and the US.
> 
> Instead of griping about is here you would be better off griping about it to the US Government as I have said to you multiple times. *They* were the ones who created the "problem" for you and so you should contact them.
> 
> Even if the Government of Canada did not agree, as dual citizen would still be beholden to abide by the tax laws of the US.
> 
> So once again you should not expect that Canada should be a tax haven for dual citizens of the US and Canada.


No it was Harpoon's Con men who placed the demands of the IRS and Canadian Bankers ahead of the rights of Canadian citizens, the Canadian Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Once again I have to point out that very few Canadians "owe" the IRS any taxes. You see taxes paid to Canada are given a tax credit and Canadian tax rates are higher than the US. That claim that the FATCA IGA has anything to do with collecting US taxes is a complete con job.

The problem is the extortion scam, involving penalties failing to file or making errors on F(u)Bars, 8938s, 3520s and other forms. Even though individuals may owe zero in taxes, the FATCA extortion scam can allow the IRS to take their life savings many times over. 

By playing the banksters against their customers, the IRS stands to also collect $Billion$ in fines levied against banks. If I file an F(u)BAR and the Bank fails to file on the same accounts, Ka Ching, the IRS collects from the bank. If the bank files and I don't, my life savings are down the drain, even though I filed my taxes for over 20 years and never owed a dime. That's the scam the Harpo-cons blessed by signing the IGA.

Stop trying to blame the victims. It's extortion pure and simple and Canada should have stood up and said so.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> *No it was Harpoon's Con men who placed the demands of the IRS and Canadian Bankers ahead of the rights of Canadian citizens, the Canadian Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
> *
> Once again I have to point out that very few Canadians "owe" the IRS any taxes. You see taxes paid to Canada are given a tax credit and Canadian tax rates are higher than the US. That claim that the FATCA IGA has anything to do with collecting US taxes is a complete con job.
> 
> The problem is the extortion scam, involving penalties failing to file or making errors on F(u)Bars, 8938s, 3520s and other forms. Even though individuals may owe zero in taxes, the FATCA extortion scam can allow the IRS to take their life savings many times over.
> 
> By playing the banksters against their customers, the IRS stands to also collect $Billion$ in fines levied against banks. If I file an F(u)BAR and the Bank fails to file on the same accounts, Ka Ching, the IRS collects from the bank. If the bank files and I don't, my life savings are down the drain, even though I filed my taxes for over 20 years and never owed a dime. That's the scam the Harpo-cons blessed by signing the IGA.
> 
> Stop trying to blame the victims. It's extortion pure and simple and Canada should have stood up and said so.


*Hockey pucks!!! *You are a citizen of the US and not some *VICTIM* and must also abide by their laws and not expect *ANY* Canadian Government to protect from potential US tax evasion laws. Despite what you wish, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Suck it up and and fill out the forms. If your are in compliance, once again, you have nothing to worry about.

With all your posts it seems that you and some of your cohorts have something to hide, i.e.* $*.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> *Hockey pucks!!! *You are a citizen of the US and not some *VICTIM* and must also abide by their laws and not expect *ANY* Canadian Government to protect from potential US tax evasion laws. Despite what you wish, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
> 
> Suck it up and and fill out the forms. If your are in compliance, once again, you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> With all your posts it seems that you and some of your cohorts have something to hide, i.e.* $*.


Based on that, clearly you now believe that Eritreans should suck it up and pay 2% of their earned income to Eritrea? Obviously the legacy of Harpoon hypocrisy is alive and well.

I know there are huge differences. The Eritrean tax return is half a page and could be filled out by a third grader. The Eritreans do not attempt to steal entire bank accounts for failing to fill out a form, which has absolutely nothing to do with taxes. But other than that Everything Baird said about Eritrea should apply to the US several orders of magnitude over.

Here's what Baird said in 2014 regarding Eritrea:


> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird says he has sent a message to the Eritrean consulate to stop collecting a "diaspora tax" from Eritrean-Canadians here or he will order the African nation's consulate closed.
> 
> In response to a question from a reporter in Toronto, Baird said the practice of requiring Eritrean-Canadians to pay a tax at the consulate is "unacceptable."
> 
> "We share the deep concern that Eritrean-Canadians, and others, have for the work that has gone on at the consulate. We've repeatedly sent out strong signals that is unacceptable, it's wrong and will not be tolerated," Baird said.
> 
> "I gave instructions to my deputy minister several days ago to very clearly and unequivocally deliver a strong message that this activity must cease and desist, and if it doesn't we will close the consulate," Baird said.





> This is just the most recent action Baird has taken against Eritrean officials in Canada *over the practice of requiring expatriates to pay what the UN has condemned as a worldwide "diaspora tax" on its nationals,* valued at two per cent of their income. Last year, Baird expelled consul general Semere Ghebremariam O. Micael.


I know this goes against your pledge of allegiance to the Banksters, the IRS and The New World Order and the Canadian Conmen, but Canada should place its Constitution, its Charter of rights, its laws and its citizens ahead of the interests of the IRS. The failure of the Harpoon, and the Hairpiece to recognize this is blasphemous to say the least.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Based on that, clearly you now believe that Eritreans should suck it up and pay 2% of their earned income to Eritrea? Obviously the legacy of Harpoon hypocrisy is alive and well.
> 
> I know there are huge differences. The Eritrean tax return is half a page and could be filled out by a third grader. The Eritreans do not attempt to steal entire bank accounts for failing to fill out a form, which has absolutely nothing to do with taxes. But other than that Everything Baird said about Eritrea should apply to the US several orders of magnitude over.
> 
> Here's what Baird said in 2014 regarding Eritrea:


Apples and oranges dude... Apples and oranges. They are not the same. They are both fruit but that is all they have in common.


----------



## eMacMan

I allowed that the differences were several orders of magnitude, but both involve foreign governments trying to steal from Canadian citizens based on that foreign country claiming those Canadian citizens as its own.

The big difference was in the Harpoon response. The hypocrisy should be evident even to a true blue loyalist such as yourself.

*Canada should place its Constitution, its Charter of rights, its laws and its citizens ahead of the interests of the IRS. The failure of the Harpoon and the Hairpiece to recognize this, is blasphemous to say the least. *


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Apples and oranges dude... Apples and oranges. They are not the same. They are both fruit but that is all they have in common.


While I generally don't think much of eMacMan's problems in this regard*, he's right about this point -- they absolutely are the same thing. Either it's appropriate for other nations to require taxes from Canadians who USED TO live in those other countries, or it isn't. If it isn't, then the response to Eritrtea is appropriate and co-operation with the IRA is not.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> While I generally don't think much of eMacMan's problems in this regard*, he's right about this point -- they absolutely are the same thing. Either it's appropriate for other nations to require taxes from Canadians who USED TO live in those other countries, or it isn't. If it isn't, then the response to Eritrtea is appropriate and co-operation with the IRA is not.


Yes, I agree with this.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on electoral reform.

Andrew Potter: Our democratic reform minister doesn’t understand our democracy



> While it is an article of faith among hipster pundits, electoral reform weenies, and perennial political losers that electoral systems sit on a continuum from the less to the more “democratic” (with first past the post at the far barely-legitimate-and-patently-undemocratic end of the line), it is not true. Every electoral system involves a host of tradeoffs and compromises between desired virtues and unavoidable defects. In particular, it requires balancing the competing goods of stability, democratic legitimacy, effective representation, deliberation, and accountability. However these are weighed, it is simply not right to describe one system as “more democratic” than another.


----------



## Macfury

Ontario to spend $7-billion on sweeping climate change plan - The Globe and Mail

Thankfully this corrupt kook will be drummed out of office before she bankrupts the province further.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Ontario to spend $7-billion on sweeping climate change plan - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Thankfully this corrupt kook will be drummed out of office before she bankrupts the province further.


Good to see Crony Capitalism is alive and well in the Canadian Heartland. I am sure a sweeping carbon tax will help pay for this and only collapse the roof over the heads of a few thousand Ontarians. 

Now I know you won't be making $Million$ on this but we have to also consider the welfare of the Banksters. They will be lending the moola to pay for this. Imagine their unbridled joy when the swindle rates spike up to 20% or so.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Ontario to spend $7-billion on sweeping climate change plan - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Thankfully this corrupt kook will be drummed out of office before she bankrupts the province further.


More insane progressive thinking. These people live in an alternate universe. I hope you're right on this MacFury but Ontario voters have a solid history of bad choices. Apparently the Conservatives are scary but this kind of BS isn't. 
I'm paying over $230 a month to run a house full of LED bulbs, Energy star appliances, no electric water heater or furnace. I can't imagine what my bill would look like if I was forced to heat my home and water with electricity.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> More insane progressive thinking. These people live in an alternate universe. I hope you're right on this MacFury but Ontario voters have a solid history of bad choices. Apparently the Conservatives are scary but this kind of BS isn't.
> I'm paying over $230 a month to run a house full of LED bulbs, Energy star appliances, no electric water heater or furnace. I can't imagine what my bill would look like if I was forced to heat my home and water with electricity.


You'll note that by a certain year, she wants to make it _illegal _to heat your home efficiently and inexpensively with natural gas. You used to hear people like this raving in bathrobes in public parks--now they're running the province into the ground.


----------



## eMacMan

A 60 watt incandescent bulb running 10 hours a day, 30 days a month will use:
.06 x 10 x 30 x $.1 = $1.80/month (@10¢/KWH)

IOW changing the entire house to LEDs will make little or no difference in the total electric bill, especially if you turn off bulbs not in use.

While the light bulb scam has made $Billion$ for GE and other license holders it does nothing for the average consumer. 

Do the math, change key bulbs if you must, but don't waste money or time changing the vast majority of bulbs which seldom run more than a few minutes a day.

The biggest enemies of affordable electricity are SMART meters/demand rates. Demand or variable rates increase consumer cost dramatically with zero impact on peak demand or overall consumption. SMART meters lack the surge protection built into their analog counterparts, necessitating expensive Arc protection circuit breakers in the main box. In addition replacing the glass and bakelite used to build analog meters with the plastics used in the SMART meters makes those SMART meters far more prone to causing fires. 

To put it another way SMART meters are DUMB


----------



## Macfury

SMART meters were only designed to subsidize the cost of electricity to croney businesses by lowering peak prices marginally for them during the day.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> You'll note that by a certain year, she wants to make it _illegal _to heat your home efficiently and inexpensively with natural gas. You used to hear people like this raving in bathrobes in public parks--now they're running the province into the ground.


If natural gas is the new coal, then I'm betting a wood or pellet stove is something far more sinister in the eyes of these moonbats.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Poor Sophie...

Canada doesn’t need a First Lady



> *Gregoire Trudeau has said publicly that she is overwhelmed with requests for personal appearances and endorsements of causes. And because she is so gosh dang popular and working so awfully hard to promote Canadian charities and designers, she needs more than the one assistant taxpayers give her.*
> 
> Senior Liberals have been dropping hints that Trudeau’s wife needs a staff comparable to that of Mila Mulroney, wife of Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, who had three assistants and an office in the PMO.
> 
> Of course what these highly placed Libs aren’t saying is that their party was sharply critical of Mila Mulroney’s staff inflation at the time.
> 
> What’s next, a calligrapher for 24 Sussex, the Prime Minister’s official residence? The White House has one. Canadians can’t expect the super busy Gregoire Trudeau to handwrite her own invitations and place cards.


M'bold.

Wah...

More:



> Laureen Harper, wife of former Prime Minister Stephen Harper, managed for 10 years with just one assistant. Like Gregoire Trudeau, she too was an active mother, a champion of several worthy causes and a busy hostess of official events.
> 
> And, yes, Harper was also an avid promoter of all things Canadian – gowns, shoes, cheese, wine, culture.


Yep.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Ontariowe's Climate Change Plan.

Kevin Libin: Ontario’s big, green assisted economic suicide plan



> To get an idea of what Ontario could look like a couple of decades out under Liberal energy minister Glen Murray’s “climate action plan” — which was revealed in detail in Monday’s Globe and Mail — who better to rely on than the man himself, Glen Murray?
> 
> Back in 2008, when he chaired the National Roundtable on the Environment and the Economy, Murray — along with his acting CEO, Alex Wood, now executive director of the Ontario Climate Change Directorate — offered up a plan that looked remarkably similar to the new Liberal cabinet document. In fairness, the NRTEE document hardly offered the perniciously micro-managed prescriptions for people and businesses that Murray has graduated to now. And this new plan, billed by the Liberals as a “once-in-a-lifetime transformation” for Ontario’s economy, may also prove the end of Ontario’s lifetime of economic progress. *In an era where assisted dying is the big thing with Liberals, this could be the first case where it’s tried on a province.*


M'bold.

<snort!>


----------



## Macfury

Yep, Ontario figures since its the most indebted sub-district in the world, it may as well seal the deal for all eternity. I can't begin to tell you how sick it makes me to see this sort of vomit dribbling out of Wynne's mouth and being called "policy."


----------



## MacGuiver

The progressive greens have all the trappings of a cult. There is no place for logic, reason or reality in their world. They'll push their dogma to the last man standing.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> The progressive greens have all the trappings of a cult. There is no place for logic, reason or reality in their world. They'll push their dogma to the last man standing.


If you remember Mauirce Strong, the guy who once _RAN_ Ontario Hydro, he actually liked the idea of the last man standing--he wanted to massively reduce the human population and eliminate all modern technology. Scary bugger!


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> If you remember Mauirce Strong, the guy who once _RAN_ Ontario Hydro, he actually liked the idea of the last man standing--he wanted to massively reduce the human population and eliminate all modern technology. Scary bugger!


Strong was a New Age quack and one of the key architects of the UN Global warming hysteria movement. I think he saw global warming as a vehicle to gain power and implement world governance. You can't deny UN dictated tentacles are reaching into all levels of government in all nations and making increasing demands on all matters of governance.


----------



## Macfury

World dictatorship... with dignity.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I can't begin to tell you how sick it makes me to see this sort of vomit dribbling out of Wynne's mouth and being called "policy."


It's frightening.

I'd invite you out here but, with the Knothead at the reins, I'm afraid it would be out of the frying pan & into the fire. You may want to consider Saskatchewan, tho...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> It's frightening.
> 
> I'd invite you out here but, with the Knothead at the reins, I'm afraid it would be out of the frying pan & into the fire. You may want to consider Saskatchewan, tho...


Yeah, Alberta is out. There are still too many freaks in the Edmonton area that would vote NDP again in a heartbeat. They think economic devastation is a sign of "progress."


----------



## FeXL

Noted before: _If_ pot is ever legalized, then there needs to be a working roadside test for cops to administer.

Some Canadians dismiss dangers of driving while high



> *Almost half of weed-smoking Canadian drivers say that they can safely operate a vehicle while stoned.*
> 
> Among Canadians who have driven under the influence of marijuana, 44% don't think it affects their ability to drive safely, according to a report Tuesday by State Farm. That compares with 42% who acknowledge a difference and 14% who don't know.


M'bold.

Of course they can...


----------



## FeXL

Can you imagine words like this ever coming from Red Rachel's mouth?

New legislature opens with Speech from the Throne



> STANDING UP FOR ALBERTA
> 
> My government believes in a strong Alberta within a strong and united Canada.
> 
> But it is troubling that today, there are some in this country who, given the opportunity, would shut down major parts of Alberta’s economy and put thousands of hard-working Alberta people out of work, all in the name of some misguided dogma that has no basis in reality.
> 
> There are those who are not comfortable with and even oppose much of what we produce in Alberta and how we produce it - oil and gas, coal and uranium, livestock and grains.
> 
> They would prefer that those sectors did not exist and that the thousands of jobs in those sectors did not exist.
> 
> They look at those jobs like they are somehow harming the country and the world.
> 
> To those people, my government has a message.
> 
> You are wrong.
> 
> You could not be more wrong.
> 
> Alberta feeds Canada and the world.
> 
> Alberta supplies energy to Canada and to the world.
> 
> What we do here makes Canada a better place.
> 
> What we do here makes the world a better place.
> 
> My government will take every occasion to stand up for this province, to defend those vital sectors and to stand up for every one of those jobs.​


Me, neither.

Change all the occurrences of "Alberta" to "Saskatchewan" & read how a good leader sounds...


----------



## Macfury

I was ready to eat my words on Notley for a minute there. She's sill the craven loon I had accepted her for.



FeXL said:


> Can you imagine words like this ever coming from Red Rachel's mouth?
> 
> New legislature opens with Speech from the Throne
> 
> 
> 
> Me, neither.
> 
> Change all the occurrences of "Alberta" to "Saskatchewan" & read how a good leader sounds...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yeah, Alberta is out. There are still too many freaks in the Edmonton area that would vote NDP again in a heartbeat. They think economic devastation is a sign of "progress."



As opposed to, say, wildfire devastation. You are so out to lunch on Premier Notley it makes all your other observations suspect as well. She has shown true leadership during the whole Fort Mac/northern Alberta wildfire crisis as it continues to devastate large swathes of land, including the area near the oil sands. There is a target date of June 1 for Fort Mac residents to return home but only if it is safe. 

Her government's response to the crisis has been swift, caring and humanitarian. You are simply out of touch if you continue to peddle the old anti-NDP garbage. She has earned respect among Albertans, something I'm sure you simply can not relate to. Brian Jean has also done tremendously well during this crisis, leading by example. Despite losing his home to fire and losing a son a year ago, he soldiers on. People do admire him. You think you understand watching the news from your armchair in the GTA, but you couldn't be more wrong about Notley and what life is really like in Alberta.


----------



## SINC

I live here and see nothing but hurt for Albertans by Notley.


----------



## spudmac

MacGuiver said:


> More insane progressive thinking. These people live in an alternate universe. I hope you're right on this MacFury but Ontario voters have a solid history of bad choices. Apparently the Conservatives are scary but this kind of BS isn't.
> I'm paying over $230 a month to run a house full of LED bulbs, Energy star appliances, no electric water heater or furnace. I can't imagine what my bill would look like if I was forced to heat my home and water with electricity.


How big is your house? My monthly average for 2013 was $132.25, for 2014 it was $128.29 and for 2015 it was $129.63. I started tracking my monthly usage a few years ago when it seemed a lot of people were talking about how hydro rates in Ontario were going to skyrocket. The first three months of 2016 are tracking very closely to the first three months of 2013, 2014, and 2015. Temperature obviously plays the most significant part in year to year changes but I personally haven't seen a significant year to year change. We are a four person family, house is 2600 square feet, 17 years old. I switched most of the lights to LED a couple of years ago (from mostly compact fluorescent). I'm interested in why you are $100 more/month than me. That is significant.

Spudmac


----------



## Macfury

She did what anyone else in her position might have done. No more, no less. Enjoy it while you can--she will be out on her ass in three years.

I'm glad you like Brian Jean. He will be the next premiere!



fjnmusic said:


> As opposed to, say, wildfire devastation. You are so out to lunch on Premier Notley it makes all your other observations suspect as well. She has shown true leadership during the whole Fort Mac/northern Alberta wildfire crisis as it continues to devastate large swathes of land, including the area near the oil sands. There is a target date of June 1 for Fort Mac residents to return home but only if it is safe.
> 
> Her government's response to the crisis has been swift, caring and humanitarian. You are simply out of touch if you continue to peddle the old anti-NDP garbage. She has earned respect among Albertans, something I'm sure you simply can not relate to. Brian Jean has also done tremendously well during this crisis, leading by example. Despite losing his home to fire and losing a son a year ago, he soldiers on. People do admire him. You think you understand watching the news from your armchair in the GTA, but you couldn't be more wrong about Notley and what life is really like in Alberta.


----------



## Macfury

spudmac said:


> How big is your house? My monthly average for 2013 was $132.25, for 2014 it was $128.29 and for 2015 it was $129.63. I started tracking my monthly usage a few years ago when it seemed a lot of people were talking about how hydro rates in Ontario were going to skyrocket. The first three months of 2016 are tracking very closely to the first three months of 2013, 2014, and 2015. Temperature obviously plays the most significant part in year to year changes but I personally haven't seen a significant year to year change. We are a four person family, house is 2600 square feet, 17 years old. I switched most of the lights to LED a couple of years ago (from mostly compact fluorescent). I'm interested in why you are $100 more/month than me. That is significant.
> 
> Spudmac


If I turn on a little air conditioning--not full out mind you--my bills have been as high as $400 a month.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I live here and see nothing but hurt for Albertans by Notley.


SINC, I certainly trust your feelings for the opinions of everyday Albertans, more than I do one of her ivory tower tower union cronies.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> She did what anyone else in her position might have done. No more, no less. Enjoy it while you can--she will be out on her ass in three years.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad you like Brian Jean. He will be the next premiere!



Premier. A premiere is the first run of a movie. And no, there's more supporters of Premier Notley than you realize. You assuming you know so much about Alberta would be like me pretending to know so much about Toronto or Ontario. You hear what you want to hear and you believe what you want to believe. Prentice would not have had this kind of support. Why? No compassion. Look in the mirror.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> And no, there's more supporters of Premier Notley than you realize.


You're living inside a union echo chamber where you simply hear your own views reflected back to you.



fjnmusic said:


> Prentice would not have had this kind of support. Why? No compassion. Look in the mirror.


That's one of the problem with "progressives"--they think they have the market cornered on compassion. Their overbearing mother love conceals a powerful contempt for voters.

Comparing Fort Mac to an episode of the _Walking Dead _went over like a lead balloon. Great compassion and sensitivity there, Rachel! 

Prentice failed because he moved too far to the left. Alberta voters made the same mistake that Ontarians made with Bob Rae--punishing the party in power backfired on them and they punished themselves in spades. Things will be rectified in three years--then you can brag about how much everybody loves Notley.


----------



## spudmac

Macfury said:


> If I turn on a little air conditioning--not full out mind you--my bills have been as high as $400 a month.


How big is your house? I had a 3 ton AC unit installed when our house was one year old. Installer advised a bigger unit as it wold not have to run as hard. In the last 39 months I've only been over $200 once and not by much ($202.12 in July of 2014). Now to be fair, we are away lot in the summer but we do run the AC solid when we are home. I installed a NEST thermostat in the summer of 2013... claims to save 20% on your yearly heating/hydro bills... based on the small sample size I guess it's doing its job. My January bills are in the $165 range... which makes some sense since my wife insists our house look like the Griswalds from December 1 until about January 10. Anyone else in Ontario have any numbers to share?


----------



## Macfury

2,500 sq. feet. 3 ton unit that is on only when people are home. Electric appliances are typical--fridge, stove, washer, dryer. One Mac Pro with two monitors would be the only additional load beyond normal consumer use. Television is used once a week. Typical winter bill is $225. Summer as high as $400.



spudmac said:


> How big is your house? I had a 3 ton AC unit installed when our house was one year old. Installer advised a bigger unit as it wold not have to run as hard. In the last 39 months I've only been over $200 once and not by much ($202.12 in July of 2014). Now to be fair, we are away lot in the summer but we do run the AC solid when we are home. I installed a NEST thermostat in the summer of 2013... claims to save 20% on your yearly heating/hydro bills... based on the small sample size I guess it's doing its job. My January bills are in the $165 range... which makes some sense since my wife insists our house look like the Griswalds from December 1 until about January 10. Anyone else in Ontario have any numbers to share?


----------



## Macfury

Rachel Notley--hero!! After boosting union salaries, she cut the wildfire control budget. 

Alberta Premier Rachel Notley defends cut in wildfire budget | Edmonton Journal



fjnmusic said:


> As opposed to, say, wildfire devastation. You are so out to lunch on Premier Notley it makes all your other observations suspect as well. She has shown true leadership during the whole Fort Mac/northern Alberta wildfire crisis as it continues to devastate large swathes of land, including the area near the oil sands. There is a target date of June 1 for Fort Mac residents to return home but only if it is safe.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau accused of pushing, elbowing opposition MPs in House



> Tensions were high in the House of Commons Wednesday as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pushed through a group of MPs, leading to a shouting match with NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair and accusations that the prime minister elbowed an NDP MP in the chest.


John Ivison: Commons gets Old Testament when Liberals move to take control of House procedure



> It was a day of mea culpas in the House Wednesday. First, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau formally apologized for the 1914 Komagata Maru Incident; then, he was obliged to beg pardon for the extraordinary scenes there later, when he was accused of “manhandling” the Conservative whip, Gord Brown, and elbowing in the chest NDP MP Ruth-Ellen Brosseau.


Sunny Ways, My Friends!



> WATCH - PM Trudeau & #NDPs Mulcair in heated exchange on HoC floor. Whoa. #cdnpoli #realchange pic.twitter.com/EQ0PcI1yy7
> — Richard Madan (@RichardMadan) May 18, 2016
> 
> Speaker says it is unacceptable to manhandle other MPs but Trudeau has now apologized. Tom Mulcair yells "No he hasn't!" #cdnpoli
> — Paul McLeod (@pdmcleod) May 18, 2016
> 
> Now Nikki Ashton is standing to describe what she saw: Trudeau "manhandle" the NDP whip, push her into a desk.
> — Paul McLeod (@pdmcleod) May 18, 2016
> 
> Video here clearly shows PM Trudeau grabbing Oppo Whip and harshly elbowing NDP MP Ruth Ellen Brosseau pic.twitter.com/e8haClmWFq
> — James Smith (@JsrSmith) May 18, 2016


'Nuf said...

NDP MP Tracey Ramsey: Trudeau swore at the MPs when he marched over, saying "Get the ___ out of the way"

Mental instability, anyone?


----------



## Macfury

Progs on parade! A sunny jab to the chest. I guess Justin wanted more women in Parliament so they would provide an equal opportunity target when he lashed out in manboy rage.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Progs on parade! A sunny jab to the chest. I guess Justin wanted more women in Parliament so they would provide an equal opportunity target when he lashed out in manboy rage.


I jes' luvs it when their true colours come out...


----------



## Macfury

I was sure that their would be a lot of progs and lefties posting here and decrying Justin's behaviour, but I hear only crickets from that side of the room.


----------



## FeXL

Can you imagine the hue & cry if Harper had done something similar? There would have been instantaneous calls for resignation, impeachment, ritual suicide with a dull butter knife...


----------



## wonderings

I watched a video of this so called incident and really do not see any violence done purposely. Not sure why the guy needed help getting through the other MP's, looks like he could have just walked around the table, but even still, I would hope he would be able to make his way through a crowd without issue, especially in parliament. Or do we need crossing guards and adult supervision? Can't believe this is even news worthy.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I watched a video of this so called incident and really do not see any violence done purposely. Not sure why the guy needed help getting through the other MP's, looks like he could have just walked around the table, but even still, I would hope he would be able to make his way through a crowd without issue, especially in parliament. Or do we need crossing guards and adult supervision? Can't believe this is even news worthy.


Why did he even need to get through the MPs? So he could drag a man bodily onto the floor? That's nuts in itself.


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> Why did he even need to get through the MPs? So he could drag a man bodily onto the floor? That's nuts in itself.


I think they are just all getting antsy the closer they get to summer break.


----------



## heavyall

You're not allowed to touch another member in the house AT ALL. He was completely out of order for even getting out of his chair, never mind getting physically involved. It's the speaker's job to police house behaviour, not the Prime Minister's.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> I watched a video of this so called incident and really do not see any violence done purposely. Not sure why the guy needed help getting through the other MP's, looks like he could have just walked around the table, but even still, I would hope he would be able to make his way through a crowd without issue, especially in parliament. Or do we need crossing guards and adult supervision? Can't believe this is even news worthy.





heavyall said:


> You're not allowed to touch another member in the house AT ALL. He was completely out of order for even getting out of his chair, never mind getting physically involved. It's the speaker's job to police house behaviour, not the Prime Minister's.


Agree with both. Contact with the NDP-MP was tenuous at most. Assuming he was at least somewhat sober the Con Whip did not need any assistance finding his way to the speakers desk. If he did, it is not the PMs job to do so.

Bottom line the PM apologized, without waiting for instructions or talking points from his corporate sponsors. Clearly the impatience of youth was a factor here, also no denying that political opportunism blew it at least somewhat out of proportion. 

I am sure our Great Canadian Leaders would never dream of on the job tippling, but if this was any other arena I would have to suspect liquor had a hand at the table.


----------



## FeXL

Bottom line the Hairdo FUBAR'd. No apology will change or erase that.

If I was a betting man, I'd place large that we haven't seen the last of his hissy fits over the next 3.5 years.

I'd have loved for him to try to touch me. I'd test whether he was a good bouncer or not... beejacon



eMacMan said:


> Bottom line the PM apologized...


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Rachel Notley--hero!! After boosting union salaries, she cut the wildfire control budget.
> 
> Alberta Premier Rachel Notley defends cut in wildfire budget | Edmonton Journal





> “In no way, shape or form are we suggesting that we wouldn’t put every bit of resources that are required to ensure that fires are appropriately fought as they arise,” Notley told reporters at a Red Deer news conference. “This is the way these kinds of emergent and non-predictable costs are typically budgeted.”
> Last year, the province spent $375 million fighting wildfires; none of that money was earmarked in the budget, but instead came directly from emergency funding.
> But the tanker budget cut this year has meant some companies that have long provided firefighting services to the province have seen their contracts reduced from 123 days to 93 days.
> After those contracts expire Aug. 16, the province will hire planes on case by case basis as needed, but critics say that could leave the government in a vulnerable position if companies look for longer-term contracts elsewhere.


The fire around Fort Mac covers a lot of area. The one person I have talked to who is familiar with the area says there was a fair bit of beetle kill in the area. I am going to make it clear I have no first hand knowledge, and his info may or may not be accurate.

However a lot of Alberta forest is fire-pine. It grows quickly, then much of it dies due to bugs or drought. A forest fire opens the cones and the next generation is often growing within 3-5 years, with no greenies planting the replacements. If this is that type of fire it will be very difficult to get under control, but at the same time is a crucial part of the natural cycle.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Rachel Notley--hero!! After boosting union salaries, she cut the wildfire control budget.
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta Premier Rachel Notley defends cut in wildfire budget | Edmonton Journal



How wrong you are. Again. "Union" salaries have not been increased yet. The firefighting budget you refer to would not happen until August, so nothing has been cut back yet. If anything, the budget would be increased this year due to the wild fires. But you just keep going looking for something negative to say. It is what you do best, after all.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> How wrong you are. Again. "Union" salaries have not been increased yet.


They froze non-union salaries and exempted union salaries. They hired an AUPE insider to head up AUPE negotiations. I can wait a few weeks for the gravy train to start rolling. Do you want to bet $100 dollars that union salaries won't go up? I'm game!



fjnmusic said:


> The firefighting budget you refer to would not happen until August, so nothing has been cut back yet. If anything, the budget would be increased this year due to the wild fires.


They cut the budget before raising it? Sure.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> They froze non-union salaries and exempted union salaries. They hired an AUPE insider to head up AUPE negotiations. I can wait a few weeks for the gravy train to start rolling. Do you want to bet $100 dollars that union salaries won't go up? I'm game!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They cut the budget before raising it? Sure.



I would hope salaries go up at least to keep pace with weekly average Albertan earnings. God knows mine was frozen for 3 years h see the previous administration. 

The amount scheduled to be cut ($15 million) doesn't go into effect until August, and would most likely be offset by the extra amount that will have gone into fighting the larger than usual fires happening right now and likely throughout the rest of the summer. 

You know what pays for firefighters? Taxes. Do you know what the thing you complain about regularly is? Taxes. Can't have it both ways.


----------



## FeXL

Let's take a look at some of this "true leadership", shall we?

Premier Antoinette? Rachel “let them eat cake” Notley celebrates NDP anniversary in a bar while Fort Mac burns



> Times like these are when good leadership floats to the top. Brian Jean and fellow Wildrose MLA for Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo Tany Yao have been helping wherever they can around Fort Mac. Both refused to take beds meant for evacuees even though they are truly just as much “evacuees” as the next person from Fort Mac. Jean and Yao slept in a tent near Anzac, south of Fort Mac until fire forced them to evacuate their camping spot too.
> 
> Times like these are also when bad leadership sinks to the bottom.
> 
> May 6, on an online Edmonton message board called Connect2Edmonton, a poster named Ian0 wrote:
> 
> _“The Premier and a good portion of her cabinet were celebrating 1yr last night at *Red Star*.”_​
> What? Out partying while Canada’s most important city burned? There was no way, right? They can’t be that tone deaf. Can they?
> 
> Yes, they can be.
> 
> The Red Star bar sent a tweet on May 5, that said:
> 
> _“Thanks for stopping by Rachel Notley and congrats on your one year anniversary of being elected.”_​
> *As Fort Mac burned, as Brian Jean and Tany Yao slept in a tent and gave others the evacuee beds meant for them, as everyday Albertans found ways to help each other in our darkest hours by taking in evacuees and delivering food and fuel to strangers, the Premier was out celebrating.*


M'bold.

Red Star, huh? How appropriate for Red Rachel. Hope the fact that Ft. Mac was burning down didn't throw any water on their celebration. I thought my opinion of her had hit rock bottom. She's managed to plumb depths even I was unaware of...

And, true leadership is what Brian Jean and Tany Yao are exhibiting. Rachel didn't even bother showing up until a week after the fires started.



fjnmusic said:


> She has shown true leadership during the whole Fort Mac/northern Alberta wildfire crisis...


----------



## dtaylor

Rachel Notley admits to personally starting Fort McMurray wildfire - The Beaverton - North America's Trusted Source of News



Entire NDP caucus arrive in neck braces, wheelchairs to House of Commons after Trudeau's assault - The Beaverton - North America's Trusted Source of News
.
.
.


----------



## Macfury

I've always said taxes should be used for primary functions like police judiciary, firefighting and defense. We no longer do many of those things well because "progs" demand that all of their guilt feelings need to be dealt with on the public dime.

National Post editorial board: A wage cut for Alberta's future | National Post



> Since 2001, Alberta has seen a remarkable expansion of provincial revenues, due mostly to rising oil and natural gas prices. Even excluding health, education and welfare transfers from Ottawa, Alberta’s provincial revenues have risen 56% in the past decade, despite the worldwide economic downturn.
> 
> So where has all this additional money gone? According to the U of C study, public sector wages have “consumed 95% of the increase in provincial revenues over the past decade.” *For every new dollar Alberta has brought in — nearly $11-billion extra a year — 95¢ has gone into the pockets of civil servants and other public-sector workers.
> *
> Alberta teachers, nurses, hospital workers, janitors and doctors are among the highest — if not the highest — paid in the country. Senior provincial bureaucrats bring home salaries as good as or better than their federal counterparts, even though they are administering a jurisdiction only about one-tenth as large as the country as a whole.


Wahhhhhhhh!



fjnmusic said:


> I would hope salaries go up at least to keep pace with weekly average Albertan earnings. God knows mine was frozen for 3 years h see the previous administration.
> 
> The amount scheduled to be cut ($15 million) doesn't go into effect until August, and would most likely be offset by the extra amount that will have gone into fighting the larger than usual fires happening right now and likely throughout the rest of the summer.
> 
> You know what pays for firefighters? Taxes. Do you know what the thing you complain about regularly is? Taxes. Can't have it both ways.


----------



## spudmac

Macfury said:


> 2,500 sq. feet. 3 ton unit that is on only when people are home. Electric appliances are typical--fridge, stove, washer, dryer. One Mac Pro with two monitors would be the only additional load beyond normal consumer use. Television is used once a week. Typical winter bill is $225. Summer as high as $400.


How does this compare over say the last few years, or do you have the numbers to compare? We have basically the same size house and the same for appliances... Electric oven (though the stovetop is gas), dryer, washer, fridge. I also have two kids who run a Playstation/a Mac Mini/take way too long showers. It appears you are paying way more than me. I'd love to know why. If you average the above over a year you are at around $3750 (that's assuming you average $225 for six months and $400 for six months - It's probably less as you say you go as high as $400). 

Here are my yearly expense on hydro:
2013 was $1587.05
2014 was $1539.47
2015 was $1555.51. 

You are paying well over double what I'm paying. And MacGuiver - if you are averaging $230/month that's $2760... about $1200 more per year than me. I don't know guys... unless someone has tapped into your hydro these numbers are not making sense to me. Anyone else with numbers? 

Spudmac


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> How wrong you are. Again. "Union" salaries have not been increased yet.


United Nurses of Alberta in Edmonton have already received a hefty boost thanks to Notley's largesse.


----------



## FeXL

They makle it sound like this amount of red tape is to be celebrated or something...

It’s here! The consolidated Energy East application has arrived, all 38,885 pages of it

Related:

NEB approves the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. Now the real gauntlet begins...

Board gives Trans Mountain pipeline conditional OK, opponents promise fight



> The National Energy Board says the contentious $6.8-billion Trans Mountain pipeline expansion is in Canada's best interests, despite increased greenhouse gas emissions and threats to killer whales off British Columbia's coast.
> 
> The federal regulator issued its long-awaited report on Thursday after a two-year debate that cost millions and galvanized aboriginal and environmental protests. The board recommended Ottawa approve Kinder Morgan Canada's proposal *subject to 157 conditions.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

On The Hairdo's “There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada.”

In Losing True North, book author claims Justin Trudeau going in the wrong direction on immigration policies



> “Canada is an incredibly proud nation – with plenty to be proud of – and holds a deeply ingrained set of shared values and commitments,” Malcolm wrote in her book. “From these values, Canadians derive a distinct identity, defined not by how we look, but by how we live. Our core identity is defined by the rights and responsibilities of Canadian citizenship.”


Just because he's wandering about like a rudderless ship at sea doesn't mean the rest of us have no identity...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> On The Hairdo's “There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada.”
> 
> In Losing True North, book author claims Justin Trudeau going in the wrong direction on immigration policies
> 
> 
> 
> Just because he's wandering about like a rudderless ship at sea doesn't mean the rest of us have no identity...


I can certainly remember the golden era, when the Bank of Canada was not just an extension of the international Bankster Cartel and "Gasp" there was no Canadian Identity. After decades of relentless pursuit I thought the CBC had finally tracked down that elusive Yeti, but seems like they may have once again misplaced it.

Still blaming Immigrants for the failure of the CBC seems a bit far fetched. That identity was missing long before current immigration policies were set in motion by the Cretin and the Harpoon.


----------



## CubaMark

*Oh good lord.... * :lmao::clap::lmao:

*No peeking! Government records censored with Scotch tape, paper*










When reporters ask government agencies for copies of records, they often get documents so blacked out they look like crossword puzzles.

That’s why Raphael Satter, an Associated Press correspondent in Paris, was dumbfounded when he received files from the Public Health Agency of Canada that were censored using only Scotch tape and paper.

He was able to see the redacted confidential information simply by peeling back the paper.

This was a first, he said, in more than a decade reporting for the AP. He has made access to information requests in about 15 countries, from Norway to Rwanda. “I’ve never seen someone use an arts and crafts method in order to hide information from me,” he told the Star.

A colleague of his, Maria Cheng, an AP medical writer, applied for the documents in August 2015 and got a reply about nine months later. The files were related to the 2014 Ebola outbreak.

Satter posted pictures and video of the improperly censored government documents on Twitter, where they quickly became the envy of journalists everywhere.

“Canadians are so nice,”

* * *​
Tom Henheffer, executive director of Canadian Journalists for Free Expression, has never heard of any redactions being made with tape and paper.

“This is the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen,” he said. “It must’ve been someone’s first day.”​
(The Star)


----------



## dtaylor

CubaMark said:


> *Oh good lord.... * :lmao::clap::lmao:
> 
> *No peeking! Government records censored with Scotch tape, paper*
> 
> <snip>





> That’s why Raphael Satter, an Associated Press correspondent in Paris, was dumbfounded when he received files from the Public Health Agency of Canada that were censored using only Scotch tape and paper.
> 
> He was able to see the redacted confidential information simply by peeling back the paper.
> 
> This was a first, he said, in more than a decade reporting for the AP. He has made access to information requests in about 15 countries, from Norway to Rwanda. “I’ve never seen someone use an arts and crafts method in order to hide information from me,” he told the Star.





> Tom Henheffer, executive director of Canadian Journalists for Free Expression, has never heard of any redactions being made with tape and paper.
> 
> “This is the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen,” he said. “It must’ve been someone’s first day.”



It's highly unlikely that Ralph Satter received the copy intended for him. I'll bet that this happened: the sensitive parts of the original document document were masked with bits of paper, and a photocopy of that was made. The original, paper-masked document was then sent by mistake -- or maybe even "mistake". 

It is also likely that everyone involved with this story is fully aware of the processes used to create vetted documents, and the mistake would've been instantly apparent to them. 

I suspect that they are are being intentionally obtuse in order to present a Reader's Digest-style "That's Outrageous!" story.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Trudeau accused of pushing, elbowing opposition MPs in House
> 
> 
> 
> John Ivison: Commons gets Old Testament when Liberals move to take control of House procedure
> 
> 
> 
> Sunny Ways, My Friends!
> 
> 
> 
> 'Nuf said...
> 
> NDP MP Tracey Ramsey: Trudeau swore at the MPs when he marched over, saying "Get the ___ out of the way"
> 
> Mental instability, anyone?


What else can you say....mention Trudeau in Paliament and a big titter runs through house!


----------



## fjnmusic

Rps said:


> What else can you say....mention Trudeau in Paliament and a big titter runs through house!



Titter. I see what you did there.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> What else can you say....mention Trudeau in Paliament and a big titter runs through house!





fjnmusic said:


> Titter. I see what you did there.


----------



## Dr.G.

Harper will step down as MP before Parliament's fall session - The Globe and Mail

I wondered when this might happen. It can't be easy for him sitting in the back after all these years up front.


----------



## FeXL

She should be asking for his resignation...

Wynne orders MPP to apologize for calling cops on mom



> A Liberal backbencher said he was sorry Tuesday after police were called on a mother of an autistic child who had threatened a solitary protest at his constituency office.
> 
> Bob Delaney's apology - four days after police knocked on Melanie Palaypayon's door - came only after Premier Kathleen Wynne spoke to him and called him into her office for a meeting.


----------



## eMacMan

Disentangle thread


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> She should be asking for his resignation...
> 
> Wynne orders MPP to apologize for calling cops on mom


Sadly our modern police forces are becoming tools of repression and intimidation. The fact that Hitler, Stalin, Bush, and Obushma all love(d) the Stasi approach does not make the idea a good one.

A completely insane abuse of power. The MPP should be given a solid kick in the wallet. Perhaps a sizeable chunk of his salary can go towards helping to offset the cuts in the IBI program.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> What else can you say....mention Trudeau in Paliament and* a big titter runs through house!*





fjnmusic said:


> Titter. I see what you did there.





Dr.G. said:


>


Whoa!!!

Really? From you Rps, that is really low humour, not to mention incredibly sexist.

Trudeau had no business intervening in the way that he did cut and dry. If he had a problem with the way things were going he should have passed by the throng in the Opposition Aisle (even with as much determination) and talk directly to the Speaker of the House.

By acting the way he did it seems that he thinks he controls the activities in/of the House of Commons. *He does not!!* That is the job of the Speaker.

For the "Trudeamanics", this was a demonstration of his ability to take charge.

For anyone else who is not a Trudeamanic and knows *anything* about Parliamentary process and protocol, what he did was simply *outrageous and he completely overstepped his bounds. Period!*

His actions were unprecedented for a PM in Canadian history, but not in a good way. The sad thing is that for Trudeamanics, they simply don't care. They see his actions as a good thing and not a bad thing.

Trudeau has apologized twice now for his actions in the House of Commons (most likely because people in the PMO who are smarter than him told him that he should apologize). So that should be evidence enough, even for the Trudeamanics, that what he did was wrong.


----------



## screature

*A bad week in the House Commons for the Libs, but the public doesn't care*


Only the 11th time in Canadian history that the Speaker of the House had to cast a deciding vote.

The introduction of M-6.

"Elbowegate" (stupid name for it that the media is using)... the real issue goes much deeper, complete disregard for Parliamentary Procedure and Protocol. Complete arrogance and disrespect to the Speaker of the House.

The withdrawal of M-6.

All in all a very embarrassing week for the Libs... But the public doesn't seem to care as Trudeau's approval rating has risen.

This seems to indicate to me that the average Canadian does not know squat about the rules of the House of Commons and Parliament in general.

A sad state of affairs IMO.


----------



## Macfury

It's not what happens, it's which part is doing it that matters to the great unwashed.



screature said:


> Only the 11th time in Canadian history that the Speaker of the House had to cast a deciding vote.
> 
> The introduction of M-6.
> 
> "Elbowegate" (stupid name for it that the media is using)... the real issue goes much deeper, complete disregard for Parliamentary Procedure and Protocol. Complete arrogance and disrespect to the Speaker of the House.
> 
> The withdrawal of M-6.
> 
> All in all a very embarrassing week for the Libs... But the public doesn't seem to care as Trudeau's approval rating has risen.
> 
> This seems to indicate to me that the average Canadian does not know squat about the rules of the House of Commons and Parliament in general.
> 
> A sad state of affairs IMO.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's not what happens, it's which part is doing it that matters to the great unwashed.


Did you mean to say party instead of "part"?

Otherwise if you meant what you posted it makes no sense to me.

If you meant to say party I completely agree.


----------



## Macfury

I absolutely intended to say _party._



screature said:


> Did you mean to say party instead of "part"?
> 
> Otherwise if you meant what you posted it makes no sense to me.
> 
> If you meant to say party I completely agree.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The sunny ways wall came tumbling down 



> Last week he tried giving himself more power than Stephen Harper. He then blew it with an arrogant outburst of elbowing, grabbing and swearing.
> 
> Until then, Trudeau’s wall of sunny ways had blocked Canadians’ view of his high-handed governing style.
> 
> Canadians hadn’t seen him use his time-allocation on Bill C-14 – the assisted dying bill. Or on budget bill C-15.


More:



> Indignant a vote on his Bill C-14 was delayed by a mere 30 seconds, Trudeau marched across the Commons floor, told several MPs to “get the f--- out of my way,” grabbed one, elbowing another in the process.
> 
> And the sunny ways wall came tumbling down. Over its rubble the opposition pointed to Trudeau’s time-allocation, closure, committee-stacking and “draconian” Motion 6. And linked them to a theme of arrogance in power.
> 
> And by mid-afternoon Thursday, the government had withdrawn Motion 6.
> 
> This week he should withdraw his illegitimate election reform committee.


As arrogant as his old man, with none of the chops & 1/10 the smarts. Nice hair, tho...


----------



## Rps

Screature, Titter definition, to laugh in a restrained, self-conscious, or affected way, as from nervousness or in ill-suppressed ...


----------



## Rps

So now that Harper has said he is calling it quits, all the accolades are washing over him. In my view he wasn't the greatest PM or the worst. To me he was a guy doing his job. Like all of us, some days we get it right and some days we get it wrong....but the key is we get it.

So this lead me to the question of who was the worst PM. My wife struggles between Diefenbacker and Trudeau Sr. And I think she may be right.

On the other side, I can't think of, who in my life time, was the best PM.....but I have come to the conclusion that quite possibly Robert Stanfield may have been the best PM we never had.


----------



## macintosh doctor

my new avitar.. free speech only if vetted by the liberals LOL








they pass a law that will throw you in prison if you say anything against LGBT
but then you are still able to make fun of races, religious sects and straight marriage.. 
to say i am confused, is an understatement


----------



## Macfury

Harper was the best in my lifetime. Trudeau Sr. was the worst. However, junior is giving him a run for his money already.



Rps said:


> So now that Harper has said he is calling it quits, all the accolades are washing over him. In my view he wasn't the greatest PM or the worst. To me he was a guy doing his job. Like all of us, some days we get it right and some days we get it wrong....but the key is we get it.
> 
> So this lead me to the question of who was the worst PM. My wife struggles between Diefenbacker and Trudeau Sr. And I think she may be right.
> 
> On the other side, I can't think of, who in my life time, was the best PM.....but I have come to the conclusion that quite possibly Robert Stanfield may have been the best PM we never had.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> So now that Harper has said he is calling it quits, all the accolades are washing over him. In my view he wasn't the greatest PM or the worst. To me he was a guy doing his job. Like all of us, some days we get it right and some days we get it wrong....but the key is we get it.
> 
> So this lead me to the question of who was the worst PM. My wife struggles between Diefenbacker and Trudeau Sr. And I think she may be right.
> 
> On the other side, I can't think of, who in my life time, was the best PM.....but I have come to the conclusion that quite possibly Robert Stanfield may have been the best PM we never had.


I was not in Canada during the time that Stanfield ran for PM and lost to PET. I always felt that Ed Broadbent was the best PM Canada might have had since I came here back in 1977. Jack Layton and Stephen Lewis would also fit into this category.


----------



## FeXL

I like this guy!

The world's toughest diplomat strikes again! Canadian ambassador who was hailed a hero after shooting dead Ottawa terrorist now takes on a protester at an Easter Rising ceremony in Ireland



> A diplomat hailed a hero worldwide for shooting a gunman who stormed the Canadian parliament has wrestled with a protester at a State-organised ceremony in Dublin.
> 
> Kevin Vickers tackled a demonstrator who began chanting 'insult' at the service commemorating more than 100 British soldiers killed trying to suppress the Easter Rising a century ago.
> 
> Official State events have been held throughout this year to mark all the deaths that occurred during the fighting a century ago in Easter week 1916.
> 
> Videos show the diplomat whisk the angry protester away, at some pace, from the main ceremony. The man has no option but to run backwards as he dragged by Mr Vickers.


Thank you, again, Mr. Vickers!


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Screature, Titter definition, to laugh in a restrained, self-conscious, or affected way, as from nervousness or in ill-suppressed ...


Having a great deal of difficulty finding the motivation to stay abreast of this one. Still I do love a good pun. One should never ever let their political disorientation interfere with their appreciation of a form of humor that even Shakespeare used to good effect.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I was not in Canada during the time that Stanfield ran for PM and lost to PET.


Stanfield made decent underwear.



Dr.G. said:


> I always felt that Ed Broadbent was the best PM Canada might have had since I came here back in 1977. Jack Layton and Stephen Lewis would also fit into this category.


Ouch! That would be my vision of hell. I have probably disliked Broadbent and Lewis more than almost any Canadian politicians. Layton at least had a personality, but a series of spooky policy ideas.


----------



## SINC

Any one of the three would have been catastrophic for Canada, not because of the men themselves, but because of the policies of their party, the NDP. Just look at what the Dippers are doing to Alberta and their Leap Manifesto.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I like this guy!
> ....
> Thank you, again, Mr. Vickers!


Not surprised that _you_ would....

Vickers overstepped his position, as a foreign diplomat on Irish soil. He's not a cop anymore, not a parliament security chief.

He interfered with an Irish citizen's right to peacefully protest in his own country.

Any interdiction of the protester should have been left to the, I'm sure, _many_ Irish security members on-site.

Vickers' actions during the Parliament attack were heroic. Here, not so much.


----------



## Macfury

Protocol over decency, eh CM?



CubaMark said:


> Not surprised that _you_ would....
> 
> Vickers overstepped his position, as a foreign diplomat on Irish soil. He's not a cop anymore, not a parliament security chief.
> 
> He interfered with an Irish citizen's right to peacefully protest in his own country.
> 
> Any interdiction of the protester should have been left to the, I'm sure, _many_ Irish security members on-site.
> 
> Vickers' actions during the Parliament attack were heroic. Here, not so much.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Stanfield made decent underwear.
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch! That would be my vision of hell. I have probably disliked Broadbent and Lewis more than almost any Canadian politicians. Layton at least had a personality, but a series of spooky policy ideas.


I was waiting for your reaction, Macfury.  Guess our streak of agreements comes to an end. What a pity. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Any one of the three would have been catastrophic for Canada, not because of the men themselves, but because of the policies of their party, the NDP. Just look at what the Dippers are doing to Alberta and their Leap Manifesto.


Well, same goes with you, Sinc. We shall agree to disagree and still remain friends. I would have and did vote for two of these three. Never got a chance to vote for Stephen Lewis. Pity. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Stanfield made decent underwear.
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch! That would be my vision of hell. I have probably disliked Broadbent and Lewis more than almost any Canadian politicians. Layton at least had a personality, but a series of spooky policy ideas.


Robert Stanfield did not make any underwear. He did miss one catch of a football. Did this fact put you off?  

The underwear was made by other members of the family.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Robert Stanfield did not make any underwear. He did miss one catch of a football. Did this fact put you off?
> 
> The underwear was made by other members of the family.


Saw that pic. Heard it cost him the election, which was unfair.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Robert Stanfield did not make any underwear. He did miss one catch of a football. Did this fact put you off?


I was too young to be aware of anything involving Stanfield and a football.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I was too young to be aware of anything involving Stanfield and a football.


https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/robert-stanfield-fumbles/


Oops


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/robert-stanfield-fumbles/
> 
> 
> Oops


I _did _see that photo years later. Wonder why it affected voters?


----------



## SINC

I witnessed that event live and I too wonder how it had any effect on voters in any way.

Voters had bigger fish to fry with Stanfield back then.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Robert Stanfield did not make any underwear. He did miss one catch of a football. Did this fact put you off?
> 
> The underwear was made by other members of the family.


The point you omit is that the underwear business his immediate family owned, made it possible for him to be a professional student and politician without ever holding a real job in, or outside of his family's business. He lived on the family or public teat all his life, fumbling much more than a mere football.

That is what put me off about Stanfield in answer to your question.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Protocol over decency, eh CM?


I'm simply saying that it wasn't Vicker's place to take action.

*The Rabble* has a good take on this:

*Kevin Vickers tackling an Irish protester in Dublin is pretty far from heroic*

On Easter Monday in 1916, about 1,600 Irish nationalists seized a number of key buildings in Dublin in a rebellion against the occupying British army in attempt to establish a free republic. The date is loaded with historical and cultural resonances and Ireland began centenary celebrations earlier this year, using it to mark the beginning of the fledgling Irish republic.

Britain declared martial law. Fighting lasted six days and about 500 people were killed, over half of them civilians -- and 2,000 were injured. Roughly 125 British soldiers and police also lost their lives. In the weeks that followed, 15 leaders of the rebellion were excuted by firing squad and 2,000 suspected republican supporters were rounded up and deported to Britain for detention without trial.

This is only a brief sketch of the complexities of the fight for Irish independence that Ambassador Kevin Vickers chose to blunder into. It was at best tacky and at worst, extremely inappropriate to tackle an Irish citizen as he peacefully protested British imperialism during a ceremony honouring casualties of an occupation army -- that took place in Dublin.

The protester was not violent. Reports say he was yelling "This is an insult" and "It's a disgrace" at the notion of celebrating British troops who slaughtered Irish citizens with impunity. I'd say that's fair comment.

The protester was later arrested for public disturbance -- but it's notable that the Irish gardaí showed a great deal more composure in dealing with the unarmed man than Vickers, whose job is literally to be diplomatic with the complex cultural and political forces at play in Ireland.​
(Rabble.ca)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

On the contrary, I'd say this is _exactly_ what the Liberals are about...

‘This isn’t what Liberals are about’: Some party members bristling over perceived efforts to quash dissent



> “Is there a mood to prevent...[C14]...from being discussed? One hundred per cent sure. It’s like opening a can of worms,” she said. “But Justin is so clear that he wants this open and transparent process, right? Why not let people at a forum on policy talk about the most important policy of our generation?”
> 
> Meanwhile, some Liberals have been privately bristling over what they saw as heavy-handed efforts to get members to back proposed changes to the party’s constitution. Others say the changes go too far in concentrating power at the top.
> 
> The changes would get rid of the traditional idea of membership so that any Canadian could sign up as a “registered Liberal” without paying a fee. But critics say it doesn’t include any indication on what kinds of bylaws will be introduced by the leadership, meaning members are asking to approve the changes on faith.
> 
> “*There’s a power grab at the top and the grassroots are being ignored*,” said delegate Elizabeth Wood McDonald, who also supported Robbins’ call for a debate on C-14. “The irony is they want to increase the grassroots with no membership and no Liberal status.”


M'bold.


----------



## MacGuiver

FeXL said:


> On the contrary, I'd say this is _exactly_ what the Liberals are about...
> 
> ‘This isn’t what Liberals are about’: Some party members bristling over perceived efforts to quash dissent
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.


Trudeau did express his admiration for China's basic dictatorship and its ability to turn out policy on a dime. Who needs debate when we have our Dear Leader and his team to decide whats right for us?


----------



## Macfury

Who is surprised by this?

Also noting the silence from the cheap seats at EhMac. Had Stephen Harper done this, there would have been plenty of public clawing at hair shirts.


----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver said:


> Trudeau did express his admiration for China's basic dictatorship and its ability to turn out policy on a dime. Who needs debate when we have our Dear Leader and his team to decide whats right for us?


Exactly.


----------



## FeXL

From March.

Bombardier still aims to outsource jobs as it seeks bailout from Ottawa



> A proposal by the company to outsource wing and cockpit production was rejected by workers at the Toronto plant in October, but Bombardier has not given up on the idea. “They are still determined to offload the wing and the cockpit to Mexico and China,” said one source familiar with the discussions.
> 
> Such a move could prove hugely awkward for the federal government, which is studying a request by Bombardier for a $1-billion (U.S.) investment in its C Series plane program to match a deal struck with Quebec. The company is trying to shore up more financial resources for the new aircraft to take it to projected break-even in 2020-21. It plans to build between 15 and 20 C Series planes this year.
> 
> *Bombardier wants Ottawa to come on board as a strategic partner in the C Series, and has found itself at the centre of a heated national debate on the merits of receiving public money.*


M'bold.

More:



> “*This is a company that’s generally proven to be very astute in dealing with governments*,” said Louis Hébert, a specialist in corporate strategy at Montreal’s HEC business school. That they’re proposing this, on top of plans announced last month to lay off 2,800 workers in Canada, “shows just how grave the situation is,” Prof. Hébert said.


M'bold.

More like Liberal & PQ gov'ts have bent over backwards to kiss Bombardier's backside...


----------



## Macfury

Well, they ARE from Quebec--that should be worth something to Justin.


----------



## eMacMan

Surely no-one took Trudeau seriously when he promised transparency. The Harpoon blazed the trail on this one and the Trudeau is following faithfully in those footsteps.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Who is surprised by this?
> 
> Also noting the silence from the cheap seats at EhMac. Had Stephen Harper done this, there would have been plenty of public clawing at hair shirts.


Liberals like to accuse Conservatives of all manner of outrageous things. No matter how patently false the claims may be, for the most part the Liberals believe them to be true, because that's how THEY operate.


----------



## Rps

So now we are having q bill to change the words of our national anthem. We can't say " in all thy sons command" any more if passed. So we will spent millions of dollars on this when the best solution is the one used by the Montreal Canadiennes. Thoughts....


----------



## SINC

They keep changing our anthem every few years to be politically correct. It should never have been altered. An anthem is an anthem. I no longer either sing or stand for the butchered version, it is NOT the anthem I learned as a child.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> So now we are having q bill to change the words of our national anthem. We can't say " in all thy sons command" any more if passed. So we will spent millions of dollars on this when the best solution is the one used by the Montreal Canadiennes. Thoughts....


It's disgusting to change the words of a National Anthem.


----------



## MacGuiver

Rps said:


> So now we are having q bill to change the words of our national anthem. We can't say " in all thy sons command" any more if passed. So we will spent millions of dollars on this when the best solution is the one used by the Montreal Canadiennes. Thoughts....


They could change this but for progressives there will always be something new to find offence in.

Our home and native land? (I hope this means Native as in First Nations because we stole the country from them and its not ours)
-GOD keep our land? (GOD? Need I say more?) What about Allah? What about the giant spaghetti monster?
-We stand on guard? (thats not very welcoming and open and it stinks of militancy. Sounds like something out of a Trump Rally!)
-True North Strong and Free (This could be very offensive to the True South Weak and Oppressed)
-All thy sons command? What about daughters or the LGBTQXYZ?
-It also sounds really White. We need to weave through words and languages that represent our cultural mosaic...

You get the idea.

Five years ago it was pretty much common sense that vagina's and penises used different bathrooms. It still is with sane people. To see how progressives are so quickly triggered into rage by the utter racism/trans/****/genderphobia of anyone that thinks dudes in the ladies room is a bad idea shows how quickly these folks can move the goal posts.


----------



## Macfury

"Progressives" are fueled entirely by anger. Some of the unhappiest and least satisfied people I have met. it's a shame they take their deep-seated sense of guilt and other problems out on society this way.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> "Progressives" are fueled entirely by anger. Some of the unhappiest and least satisfied people I have met. it's a shame they take their deep-seated sense of guilt and other problems out on society this way.


What about me???? I thought we were good friends, brothers in arms on some issues, and happy to know each other.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> What about me???? I thought we were good friends, brothers in arms on some issues, and happy to know each other.


You are one of the few happy exceptions, Dr. G. I should have noted that.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

It was civil disobedience and against the law, plain & simple. As far as I'm concerned, that makes kicking him out on his arse open season for anybody, not limited to but including foreign dignitaries. 

The whackos from CBC had this wunnerful analysis:



> “But Vickers is no longer a security officer,” he continued. “He is Canada’s representative in Ireland. *That role depends not on bravery but discretion*...


M'bold. 

I guess he's just s'pose to tuck tail & run, like all the leftys.

Idiots.

In addition, we have the hypocrisy of The Hairdo:

Trudeau to consider Vickers tackling protester if issue raised

Trudeau won’t say if Kevin Vickers will be disciplined after tackling an Irish protester

Hey, Justin: Have you checked the mirror lately? Your halo is down around yer ass somewhere...



CubaMark said:


> Not surprised that _you_ would....
> 
> blah, blah, blah...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It's disgusting to change the words of a National Anthem.


I think it's fabulous. The deeper the depths these Fruit Loops & Whackos plumb, the better...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> You are one of the few happy exceptions, Dr. G. I should have noted that.


Merci, mon ami. While we have our agreements and disagreements over various issues, our discussions have always been civil, a fact I appreciate. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

A number of interesting observations, not the least of which is the one about Urz Heer being a delegate at the Conservative national convention while still being a director of the Liberal Party.

Canada's federal Conservative Party begins its implosion



> This is confusing. Ms. Heer, according to her own profile, appears to still be the director of the Brampton West Federal Liberal Riding Association. How, then, does one get to be a delegate at the Conservative Party's national convention while apparently also concurrently being a director in the Liberal Party?


Curiouser & curiouser...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau hired nanny under temporary foreign worker program — before he became a vocal critic of it



> Justin Trudeau made two applications to bring foreign nannies into Canada to look after his children, before he became leader of the Liberal Party and a vocal critic of the temporary foreign worker program, which he blames for driving down wages and displacing Canadian workers.
> 
> An Access to Information inquiry into whether Trudeau or his wife, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, had ever sought a labour market opinion – the first move for anyone looking to hire foreign workers – was refused on privacy grounds.
> 
> But Olivier Duchesneau, Trudeau’s deputy director of communications, confirmed that the Prime Minister and his wife had applied to bring two nannies into the country.
> 
> *“Mr. Trudeau and Ms. Grégoire Trudeau submitted one successful application to the temporary foreign worker program for a caregiver, prior to Mr. Trudeau becoming the leader of the Liberal Party. Employment with this individual ceased before Mr. Trudeau became leader of the Liberal Party.”*


M'bold.

Funny, that...


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> "Progressives" are fueled entirely by anger. Some of the unhappiest and least satisfied people I have met. it's a shame they take their deep-seated sense of guilt and other problems out on society this way.


Everyone, please note, no facts have been entered into the record as evidence. 

Personal bias and strongly held beliefs are not facts. 

Sorry to rain on the diatribe.


----------



## Macfury

Absolutely no facts, as noted--these are among the people I have met. For example, even though your general sense of anger might suggest you were a "Progressive," I have never met you, so I simply can't be sure.



BigDL said:


> Everyone, please note, no facts have been entered into the record as evidence.
> 
> Personal bias and strongly held beliefs are not facts.
> 
> Sorry to rain on the diatribe.


----------



## FeXL

Yet, when facts are entered into the argument, you avoid relevant discussion at all costs.

Are you Progressives ever happy?



BigDL said:


> Everyone, please note, no facts have been entered into the record as evidence.


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> Everyone, please note, no facts have been entered into the record as evidence.
> 
> Personal bias and strongly held beliefs are not facts.
> 
> Sorry to rain on the diatribe.


If you're paying attention, MANY facts have been entered in this thread.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Everyone, please note, no facts have been entered into the record as evidence.
> 
> Personal bias and strongly held beliefs are not facts.
> 
> Sorry to rain on the diatribe.


True ........... but the fact remains Macfury and I are still friends. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> True ........... but the fact remains Macfury and I are still friends. :clap:


We've always gotten along Dr. G... and where there have been misunderstandings we have quickly bridged them.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> We've always gotten along Dr. G... and where there have been misunderstandings we have quickly bridged them.


Yeah Dr. G is a class act. Don't always agree with him and I'm sure the feeling is mutual but he always takes the high road.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> We've always gotten along Dr. G... and where there have been misunderstandings we have quickly bridged them.


True. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

MacGuiver said:


> Yeah Dr. G is a class act. Don't always agree with him and I'm sure the feeling is mutual but he always takes the high road.


Merci, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Gee, there's a surprise...

Canada PM Trudeau will not be punished for elbowing legislator



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will not face punishment for manhandling a legislator and inadvertently elbowing another during a fracas in the House of Commons, parliamentarians decided on Tuesday.


Guess we shouldn't have expected anything else from a committee stacked with Liberals.

Like to see The Hairdo & Vickers in the same ring for about 3 seconds... beejacon


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> True ........... but the fact remains Macfury and I are still friends. :clap:





Macfury said:


> We've always gotten along Dr. G... and where there have been misunderstandings we have quickly bridged them.


Facts have been agreed to and with, therefore it shall be duly noted.

Again sorry, with due respect, for raining on the original diatribe.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Facts have been agreed to and with, therefore it shall be duly noted.
> 
> Again sorry, with due respect, for raining on the original diatribe.


That's the spirit. We need to be brothers and sisters here in ehMacLand, regardless of our differing political views. There is so much hatred out in the real world, that we can make a statement by agreeing/disagreeing in peace.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

Then, we have to teach our children to be peaceful as well.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkaKwXddT_I[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnYKRacKQc[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY-i7uMM094[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

Bottom line ........... we need to know that we are friends. Paix, mes amis.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BePDQ5iFi88[/ame]


----------



## fjnmusic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sprague

FeXL said:


> I think it's fabulous. The deeper the depths these Fruit Loops & Whackos plumb, the better...



Here are the original 1908 lyrics. In fact they have changed over the years several times. 

http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/obj/m5/f2/csm4548.pdf


----------



## Macfury

Sprague said:


> Here are the original 1908 lyrics. In fact they have changed over the years several times.
> 
> http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/obj/m5/f2/csm4548.pdf


Yes--they should have stayed the way they were written in 1908.


----------



## FeXL

Sprague said:


> Here are the original 1908 lyrics. In fact they have changed over the years several times.


Thx!


----------



## FeXL

More transparent Liberals...

Ontario Liberals are stonewalling their own government’s budget watchdog, he says



> Ontario’s ministries are keeping information from the government’s own financial accountability officer that he needs to do his job, he said Tuesday morning.
> 
> Stephen LeClair has been in the job just over a year, doing a similar thing in Ontario as the parliamentary budget officer does federally: He double-checks the government’s budget figures and gives his own take on its projections and assumptions when new programs are being put together.
> 
> He answers to the legislature, like the province’s ombudsman or its auditor-general. But he needs information from the executive — the premier and her ministers and the people who work for them.
> 
> “The difficulties I have faced in accessing the information my office needs to produce relevant and timely analyses are much greater than I expected they would be,” LeClair said. *“Ministries have repeatedly refused to provide my office with information on grounds that are not founded in my enabling legislation.”*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Well, if nothing else, it'll polarize the populace.

Maxime Bernier: I’m coming out against supply management — and I want all Conservatives to join me



> I understand that there are advantages to the supply-management system. One is that, in a world where agriculture is being subsidized everywhere, Canadian supply-management production does not require any subsidies on the part of government.
> 
> However, it does require much larger subsidies placed on the backs of Canadian consumers by fixing prices above the world price and preventing competition from foreign imports. *In order to protect 10 per cent of farmers, we are forcing all Canadian families, especially those with children and low-income families, to pay hundreds of dollars more every year for dairy, eggs and poultry products. This system is fundamentally unfair to Canadian families.*
> 
> Another advantage is that it provides stability for farmers, in terms of prices and quantity of production. But the flipside of this is that it doesn’t adapt to changes in demand and it discourages innovation and productivity. The current crisis in the dairy sector with diafiltered milk is just the latest illustration of what happens when a system is too inflexible.


M'bold.


----------



## Dr.G.

Not really a Canadian political item, but it is a representative of what was/is Canada.

Canada AM cancelled by CTV - Canada - CBC News

I was never a daily watcher, but when you turned on CTV in the morning, there is was.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Not a surprise to anyone whose been paying attention.

Carbon pricing about cash, not climate 



> Trudeau has never said revenue neutrality must be a component of a national carbon price.
> 
> It wasn’t mentioned in his joint statement with the premiers on March 3, agreeing to develop a national climate strategy.
> 
> Only B.C.’s carbon tax comes close to being revenue neutral.
> 
> Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s cap-and-trade scheme and Alberta Premier Rachel Notley’s carbon tax, both starting Jan. 1, aren’t revenue neutral and will enrich their governments coffers by billions of dollars annually.
> 
> *When Notley announced her carbon tax, she wrongly called it revenue neutral, claiming the government would spend all the money raised on climate change initiatives.*
> 
> That’s not what revenue neutral means.


Not surprised she wouldn't know the difference...


----------



## FeXL

Dear Premier Wynne: Your plan for phasing out natural gas is incredibly irresponsible



> The leaked Climate Change Action Plan, according to The Globe and Mail, includes an agenda to move homes, businesses and other buildings off natural gas. This agenda is incredibly irresponsible. Let me explain why.


More:



> A transition for a homeowner from gas to electric heat could raise energy-space heating costs by up to $3,000 per year. That’s just the energy bill. Add to that the cost of purchasing the prescribed alternative heating technology, the ducting retrofit required, tearing out natural gas systems, and building out the electric grid to meet the new demand. And what if a barbecue is gas-fired, or a water heater, or a dryer?


Or a range...

<just shaking my head>


----------



## FeXL

My transfer payments at work...

So, the thrust here is there's an 88 year old gazebo that, because it's a heritage building & can't be merely torn down & rebuilt, needs old, lead paint & graffiti stripped off of it & refinished. Period.

It's gonna cost an eye-watering &720,000...

The Richler gazebo joins Montreal's price tag pantheon



> And face it — even when the project was first announced, money was on the table, the project being estimated to require more than $370,000 to pull off. Even then, many Montrealers viewed this figure with some skepticism, spending estimates in this city falling roughly into the same category as urban legends. Indeed, the concern over just how much was being spent on the project prompted an Eastern Townships businessman who, yes, builds gazebos, to call CJAD last year and offer the city a piece of his inventory for free (I’m acquainted with this case quite intimately, since I was behind the microphone when he called in and when a second caller who runs a recycling company offered to cart off and dispose of the existing, lead painted gazebo free of charge).
> 
> Mayor Denis Coderre dismissed the offer, citing the heritage value of the existing structure. However it now seems that, like it or not, that heritage value has grown. Radio-Canada is reporting that the price tag for the gazebo has almost doubled to more than $720,000, the inflated costs attributable in part to the removal of lead paint and mould from the structure and allegations of squabbling between the architects hired for the job and city planners.


Tell ya what, boys: I'll do it for a cool quarter million & won't even bill you for the travel...


----------



## FeXL

My tax dollars at work...

So, Amarjeet Sohi, an MP from Edmonton, renovated his office. 835,000 bucks. When the Conservatives questioned this number, Pravda Canada came to Sohi's defence & tweeted that it was not a refurbishment but a "new department, new office, new staff".

Except it wasn't.

Amarjeet Sohi's Office

Caution: links to Pravda Canada inside...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

One more.

The Cole's version is that a Native MP by the name of Hunter Tootoo just resigned as Minister of Fisheries, _et al_ & as an MP. No reasons noted, save "alcohol issues".

Politics 101



> So what underlying event suddenly possessed the Minister to fess up and pack it all in? You the voter don't get to know, as Tootoo is pleading for privacy. *And, unlike Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, Tootoo will get the heartfelt cooperation of the left-leaning MSM.*


M'bold.

I'm thinking Rob Ford may have enjoyed a little break from the media, too...

The Hairdo:



> _“This was his own choice after a *very difficult situation*,” the prime minister said in a very brief statement Wednesday. “We will have *nothing more to say* on this matter.”
> 
> Asked what the ‘”situation” was, Trudeau did not respond._​
> Surprise, surprise.


Bold from the link. 

Yep...


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, Titter definition, to laugh in a restrained, self-conscious, or affected way, as from nervousness or in ill-suppressed ...


Ok, I thought you meant "big titter" in reference to the female NDP MP.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> I allowed that the differences were several orders of magnitude, but both involve foreign governments trying to steal from Canadian citizens based on that foreign country claiming those Canadian citizens as its own.
> 
> The big difference was in the Harpoon response. The hypocrisy should be evident even to a true blue loyalist such as yourself.
> 
> *Canada should place its Constitution, its Charter of rights, its laws and its citizens ahead of the interests of the IRS. The failure of the Harpoon and the Hairpiece to recognize this, is blasphemous to say the least. *


Sorry been too busy these days with the real world of making a living to reply here very frequently so now that I have some "leisure" time I am catching up.

Once again *hockey pucks*.

*You are a dual citizen therefore you have abide by all the laws, rules and regulations of both countries.*

Once again you should not expect Canada to be a safe haven for US tax cheats. Abide by the laws, rules and regulations of your native homeland and you have nothing worry about, that is unless you have something (money) to hide from the IRS.

As for the rest of your post it is just your usual hyperbole. Oh and just to say I am not some true blue loyalist, I think for myself thank you very much. I was critical of the Harper government on many issues in the past, just not this one.

Show me where Finance Minster Jim Flaherty (god rest his soul) broke the Constitution or Charter of Rights and Freedom. You can't because it did not happen.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> While I generally don't think much of eMacMan's problems in this regard*, he's right about this point -- they absolutely are the same thing. Either it's appropriate for other nations to require taxes from Canadians who USED TO live in those other countries, or it isn't. If it isn't, then the response to Eritrtea is appropriate and co-operation with the IRA is not.





Macfury said:


> Yes, I agree with this.


Like said they are both fruit but that is where the similarity ends.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I'm thinking Rob Ford may have enjoyed a little break from the media, too...


Another right-winger playing with false equivalencies. 

TooToo sure as hell hasn't made international headlines with his boorish behaviour, nor is insisting on staying in office despite multiple public scandals involving cocaine use, hanging out with violent gang members, nor has he offered his wife up for sex to a houseguest, ad nauseum.

Ford flaunted his lack of self control and very publicly self-destructed. 
Tootoo is apparently an alcoholic... like over a half-million other Canadians according to recent statistics.

I'm no fan of the Liberals, but you guys are reaching for anything you can possibly spin as a scandal. It's funny and sad at the same time....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I'm no fan of the Liberals, but you guys are reaching for anything you can possibly spin as a scandal. It's funny and sad at the same time....


...says the guy who will post almost anything anti-conservative.


----------



## FeXL

Once again you can't see the forest for the trees.

This has little to do with Tootoo & everything to do with how the left-leaning media handles leftist issues. They don't. Period.

Case in point: There was another Canadian Liberal MP a few months back who also went for treatment for alcoholism. Without looking it up, what's his name?



CubaMark said:


> ...you guys are reaching for anything you can possibly spin as a scandal. It's funny and sad at the same time....


----------



## CubaMark

Man. There's missing the point, and then there's driving 100 miles the long way 'round to avoid it. 

I have no idea who the previous Liberal alcoholic is/was. _It doesn't matter._

You were going on about the "Liberal media" being soft on Tootoo but being unfair to Ford. That's absurd. Ford received exactly the media attention he craved, and entirely appropriate given that this buffoon was single-handledly changing the global perspective on what are Canadians.

That you are unable to see the difference is indicative of your very biased worldview, and one might deduce an increasingly obvious persecution complex, common to many of the wounded Righteous out there.


----------



## Macfury

Man, CubaMark--I'd love to see the prescription for your lefty eyewear! Must look like the bottoms of Coke bottles!


----------



## CubaMark

For a more reasoned, well-argued and still critical look at the Tootoo situation, this article from iPolitics is worth a read:

What happened to Hunter Tootoo?


----------



## Macfury

That sort of sensitive analysis seems to be reserved for "progs."



CubaMark said:


> For a more reasoned, well-argued and still critical look at the Tootoo situation, this article from iPolitics is worth a read:
> 
> What happened to Hunter Tootoo?


----------



## FeXL

It does matter & was exactly the point I was making. Don't try to tell me what the point of my own post is. That you don't get it is not on me.

Nobody heard about it because he was a Liberal MP. If it had been Harper or any one of dozens of other Conservative MP's the media would have been all over it. The only reason I know anything about it is because it was casually mentioned in one of the articles I read about Tootoo.



CubaMark said:


> I have no idea who the previous Liberal alcoholic is/was. _It doesn't matter._


Projecting, much?

There is no one more persecuted, indignanat & self-righteous than a SJW whose just had his butt handed to him in an even argument.

Your worldview contains just as much bias as mine does. Likely even more. The thing is, I back my worldview with _facts_, instead of merely shovelling out bull**** armchair psychological analyses when I have nothing concrete with which to back my argument. 



CubaMark said:


> That you are unable to see the difference is indicative of your very biased worldview, and one might deduce an increasingly obvious persecution complex, common to many of the wounded Righteous out there.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> That sort of sensitive analysis seems to be reserved for "progs."


See, this is why you guys on the far-right can't be reasoned with. You're unhinged.

You see a spider, and you want to burn the house down.

We see a spider, and we take it into context: 


is it a dangerous spider or a species helpful to the surrounding ecology? 
Does it need to be killed, or can it be relocated? 
Is its web visually pleasing or does it contribute nothing to the artistic ambiance in which it resides? 
Is it on an endangered species list? 
How do I feel about the spider, and where do those feelings come from? 
Was I bitten by one as a child (and do I have resentment for not developing superpowers)? or 
Did I watch Arachnaphobia at too young an age to appreciate what the Director was trying to convey?

Or... _do we need to burn the house down?_


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Your worldview contains just as much bias as mine does. Likely even more. The thing is, I back my worldview with _facts_, instead of merely shovelling out bull**** armchair psychological analyses when I have nothing concrete with which to back my argument.


FeXL, do you really want to go down that road again? The one about _facts_?

Talk about a sucker for punishment....


----------



## FeXL

Uh-oh...

Gloomier future seen for Canadian immigration



> With 35 per cent of male newcomers returning home and a growing middle class in developing countries less inclined to migrate, an internal government review is calling the future of Canadian immigration into question.
> 
> The report by Immigration Refugees and Citizenship Canada also points to the challenge of reconfiguring an immigrant-selection system in a rapidly changing labour market where a growing number of jobs are temporary and there’s “increasing mismatch” of available skills and the skills in demand.
> 
> “What changes, if any, does Canada want to make to its current ‘managed migration,’ ” asked the 23-page study, titled Medium-Term Policy: Balanced Immigration and stamped “for internal discussion only.” “To what extent is the current overall immigration level appropriate and/or necessary?”


More:



> “*The Liberals have good political instincts* and like to be seen as doing more on the immigration front. It’s the right time to take a look at what is working and what is not working in the system.”


M'bold.

Yeah, 'cause politics is always a good reason to ram some unwanted piece of legislature or poor social program down more than half the throats in the country.

Further:



> “*All immigrants including the refugee class contribute to the society economically.* They pay dividends economically in five, ten years as integration is a long-term process that can take a lifetime,” said Shields, whose research focuses on labour markets and immigrants.


Bull****. What about the ones who never integrate? The ones who cannot speak English or French? The ones who never get jobs & end up on social programs for the balance of their lives? Where is the economic benefit there?

And, while we're on the topic, related (written from a US perspective with US data):

Has Immigration Caused the Income Gaps Since 1774?



> Over the past 240 years, the gap between the incomes of the rich and working poor has risen and fallen in sync with a 40-year trailing average of immigration. This, and the laws of economics, strongly indicate that immigration causes most of the income gap.
> 
> Since the early 1970s, real wages of low-skilled workers have fallen. They would be double current levels if they had kept up with the historic trend rate of worker productivity. Meanwhile, the real incomes of the 1% of Americans with the highest income have risen at double that trend rate since 1979.
> 
> The ratio of this rich income to the low-skilled wage has quadrupled since 1972. That is a recipe for rebellion.


Also related:

Illegal Immigration and the Wage Gap



> There is a close long-term correlation between low-skill wages and illegal immigration. An influx of low-skilled labor drives down wages at the bottom of the income scale, aggravating the wage gap and social divisions, providing fodder for left wing demonization of the prosperous and successful.
> 
> The normal equilibrating capacity of a market economy is short circuited when the influx of low-skill illegal immigrants is nationwide.


----------



## Macfury

You see a "progressive" spider and you want to take it into context.

You see a conservative spider and it must be torched, damn it!

Let's see equal treatment for all spiders.



CubaMark said:


> See, this is why you guys on the far-right can't be reasoned with. You're unhinged.
> 
> You see a spider, and you want to burn the house down.
> 
> We see a spider, and we take it into context:


----------



## FeXL

I dispense with your bull**** on a near daily basis & you still dog me about a single mistake?

You bet your sweet patootie, CM. I'll go down that road all day, any day.

Do you really want to keep track? I find that sort of thing childish but I can, if you insist. You're the one that included the refutation of your own point about ISIS & Islam in your own quote not so long ago...



CubaMark said:


> FeXL, do you really want to go down that road again? The one about _facts_?
> 
> Talk about a sucker for punishment....


----------



## FeXL

Far right. Jeezuz... Get a grip.



CubaMark said:


> See, this is why you guys on the far-right can't be reasoned with.


Fukc you.



CubaMark said:


> You're unhinged.


I see a spider that's uniformed & ignorant. All I'm trying to do is educate him...



CubaMark said:


> You see a spider, and you want to burn the house down.


----------



## FeXL

Another failed Liberal economic prediction.

Kathleen Wynne says crash of the carbon market in Quebec and California could lower Ontario’s revenue from cap-and-trade



> Premier Kathleen Wynne now says she may have to lower her estimate that cap-and-trade will raise $1.9 billion in new revenue for her government next year, in light of the crash of the carbon trading markets in Quebec and California.
> 
> Wynne has already committed $1.2 billion from anticipated cap-and-trade profits to green energy schemes, even though the province won’t receive any money until it starts auctioning off carbon credits to industry nine months from now, in March, 2017.
> 
> Last month, California and Quebec — which Ontario is partnering with in cap-and-trade — received only 11% of about $700 million they expected to raise from auctioning off carbon credits to industrial greenhouse gas emitters.


----------



## FeXL

I found the article interesting but the proposed "solutions" come across as whitewashed politi-speak, a tactic the left uses all the time. I detest politi-speak. Give me straight, hard, facts & don't try to dress a turd up in a tuxedo. I'm bright enough to make my own decisions without all the distractions.

A Strategy For Fiscal Conservatives



> I recently wrote an article for C2C Journal that gained a lot of traction called, _"Give the people what they want"_. The basic point was that Canadians aren’t fiscally conservative and trying to sell them fiscal conservatism politically doesn’t work unless we’re in an emergency. I had some good rebuttals like this article by Colin Craig called, _"Deficits aren't the answer"_ and an even better one by the editor of Poletical, Ryan Rados, called, _"Conservatives against deficits"_.
> 
> 
> While I understand, appreciate and even agree with many of the sentiments traditional fiscal conservatives hold about the issue, I will simply have to disagree with the process of implementation. Trying to sell something to people that they don’t really want is difficult. If Conservatives are going to win elections more frequently, they need to change tactics and implement a more nuanced (some might say cynical) approach. We need a new means to the same end, otherwise we’ll be standing on principle in the opposition benches for the next decade.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Wynn's failed economic prediction, 2 posts above.

Wynne resorting to emotional blackmail 



> Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne doesn’t seem to understand that her cap-and-trade carbon pricing scheme isn’t an environmental policy but an economic one.
> 
> That’s suggested by the fact her government was blindsided by the recent collapse of the carbon trading market in Quebec and California — the two jurisdictions Wynne is partnering with in cap-and-trade, starting Jan. 1.


More:



> Avoids cap-and-trade cost questions with apocalyptic environmental rhetoric


A leftist avoiding questions on policy? Naaahhhhh...


----------



## Macfury

A market for something with no intrinsic value is gong to collapse, no matter how many unicorns try to prop it up.



FeXL said:


> Further on Wynn's failed economic prediction, 2 posts above.
> 
> Wynne resorting to emotional blackmail


----------



## FeXL

What? Is there something wrong with helping a politician win & expecting something in return?

Wynne's campaign manager diving deep at public trough to the tune of almost $900K



> The man who helped Kathleen Wynne to victory in the 2014 election has been receiving lucrative contracts directly from the premier’s office according to documents obtained by The Rebel through a Freedom of Information request.
> 
> David Herle is the principal player behind a company called The Gandalf Group and according to the bio on the company website, Herle “served as Premier Kathleen Wynne’s campaign co-chair and steered the Ontario Liberals to a majority government in 2014.”
> 
> That fact alone has some wondering about the propriety of *Herle and his firm billing the taxpayer for almost $900,000 for “research services” in the last fiscal year from one office alone.*


Bold from the link.


----------



## Macfury

That corrupt creep Wynne needs a big comeuppance.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> See, this is why you guys on the far-right can't be reasoned with.


Still waiting for you to point out who is "far-right" around here. I've yet to encounter any hint of such a thing. The people you're arguing with here are BARELY to the right of centre on most issues, and even to the left of centre on some others.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> That corrupt creep Wynne needs a big comeuppance.


Realistically speaking, is there anyone else in the running? When's the next election?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Realistically speaking, is there anyone else in the running? When's the next election?


I sort of hoped that Wynne would resign under the pressure of her malfeasance. Sadly, the election will be in October 2018. And Patrick Brown is too "Progressive" for my "Conservative." A global warming kook, alas--which stands starkly against his pledge to affordable energy. Still, he would be miles better than Wynne.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I sort of hoped that Wynne would resign under the pressure of her malfeasance.


Keep pounding away. Mebbe it'll happen...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on Tootoo.

Sex and Drugs in the Peg. Is that what PM Justin Trudeau is covering up?



> And the press did as their master said, with one small exception.
> Last Wednesday, following Trudeau's brief statement, the CTV National News anchor read this tidbit:
> 
> _"*sources say there was an incident with Tootoo at the Lib convention on the weekend*, serious enough to be kicked from caucus."_​
> And that was it. *No follow up*. Some niggling questions on blogs and posts on news media comments sections, but as far as information, dead silence.
> 
> Until today.


Bold from the link.

I've never heard of The Black Rod organization before. Going to pay more attention to them in the future...


----------



## FeXL

From Ross McKitrick (yes, that one).

Ross McKitrick: Climate crazy Ontari-ari-ario’s no place to grow, but to get the hell out of



> The latest news out of Queen’s Park is that Kathleen Wynne’s Liberals plan to deindustrialize Ontario. Of course they don’t call it that; they prefer the term “decarbonize.” But for an industrial economy, the government’s new climate action plan, leaked to reporters this week, amounts to the same thing.
> 
> The proposed scheme beggars belief. Having phased out coal-fired power, the province now plans to phase out natural gas, the only reliable alternative for non-baseload generation. Despite electric cars being extremely costly and unpopular, *more than one in 10 new car sales will need to be electric, and every two-car household will have to own at least one electric car. All homes listed for sale will require a costly energy audit.* Home renovations will have to be geared around energy efficiency as the government defines it, not what the homeowner wants.
> 
> *Around the time that today’s high-school students are readying to buy their first home, it will be illegal for builders to install heating systems that use fossil fuels, in particular natural gas.* Having already tripled the price of power, Queen’s Park will make it all but mandatory to rely on electricity for heating.
> 
> There will be new mandates and subsidies for biofuels, electric buses for schools, extensive new bike lanes to accommodate all those bicycles Ontario commuters will be riding all winter, mandatory electric recharging stations on all new buildings, *and many other Soviet-style command-and-control directives.*


M'bold.

I'd like to personally extend a hand to all of you Wynne refugees here in Albertistan. Unfortunately, with Rachel & the Knotheads at the helm, we're not far behind. You may want to stop in Saskatchewan on your westward sojourn. Brad Wall ain't perfect but it beats the hell outta what you got now...


----------



## CubaMark

Yet another example of the _*oh-so-solid*_ sources that you like to embrace.

The headline implies much: Sex! Drugs!

And yet if one reads the actual blog post, the only mention of drugs was a question by some unnamed reporter to the police, asking if cocaine had been encountered (where, we are not sure, since the police say they had no record of any contact with Tootoo).

This, my friends, is how the Right creates innuendo and slander, which later is referenced as the Almighty Truth.

Tootoo may well be an alcoholic, cocaine-snorting, woman-abusing a-hole. But that article certainly doesn't meet any means test for validity, nor even suspicion.

But then, hey, anyone with $10 for a domain name (or in this case, $0 for a blogspot account) can create a blog, start pontificating, and the weak-minded out there start calling them "citizen journalists" as though "journalist" is something you can just auto-designate, a gift from on high or something. 

Sad, hilarious, but mostly sad.


----------



## Macfury

Let's stick with a Trudau-imposed silence on the matter.



CubaMark said:


> Yet another example of the _*oh-so-solid*_ sources that you like to embrace.
> 
> The headline implies much: Sex! Drugs!
> 
> And yet if one reads the actual blog post, the only mention of drugs was a question by some unnamed reporter to the police, asking if cocaine had been encountered (where, we are not sure, since the police say they had no record of any contact with Tootoo).
> 
> This, my friends, is how the Right creates innuendo and slander, which later is referenced as the Almighty Truth.
> 
> Tootoo may well be an alcoholic, cocaine-snorting, woman-abusing a-hole. But that article certainly doesn't meet any means test for validity, nor even suspicion.
> 
> But then, hey, anyone with $10 for a domain name (or in this case, $0 for a blogspot account) can create a blog, start pontificating, and the weak-minded out there start calling them "citizen journalists" as though "journalist" is something you can just auto-designate, a gift from on high or something.
> 
> Sad, hilarious, but mostly sad.


----------



## FeXL

They're asking questions, just like many of us. Thus far, no answers. 

In my world (unlike yours), politicians are accountable to the people. If the people are given nothing of substance...



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah, blah...


----------



## SINC

Notley & Trudeau approves Quebec contractor to rebuild Fort McMurray 

Good grief, are the Liberals this insensitive?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Good grief, are the Liberals this insensitive?


Can you imagine the hue & cry if it was a Kaybec city being rebuilt with Alberta contractors?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Notley & Trudeau approves Quebec contractor to rebuild Fort McMurray
> 
> Good grief, are the Liberals this insensitive?


They had to accept the cheapest quotes and with the heavy tax burden on Alberta businesses, they are no longer competitive.


----------



## eMacMan

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ndp-mp-makes-waves-with-bernie-sanders-work-185634113.html


> An NDP MP is feeling the burn over her volunteer work on the U.S. presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders.
> 
> Niki Ashton went Sunday to North Dakota, where the Democratic primary takes place Tuesday, to campaign for the Democratic presidential underdog.
> 
> The MP for Churchill-Keewatinook Aski in northern Manitoba was back at work in Ottawa on Monday but that wasn’t enough to quell her critics.
> ...


Article fails to cover one very important point, is she also a US citizen? If she is, she has every right to jump into the fray. Although actively participating in a US election in this manner would completely negate her ability to relinquish her toxic US citizenship, based on the oath she took when she became a Member of Parliament.

If she is not a US citizen WTF was she thinking? This is every bit as wrong as the IRS telling the Harper to over-ride the Canadian Bill of Rights and force banks to discriminate against Canadian Citizens with an American taint. However it is not nearly as wrong as the Harpoon slavishly obeying those demands, by sneaking the FATCA-IGA through in an omnibus bill, then making it effective on Canada Day.


----------



## heavyall

Even if they didn't break any rules, I suspect the Ashton family is tone deaf as to why the optics are even bad. They're "citizen of the world" kind of people. Dad born in England, mom born in Greece, they've all spent lots of time in all kinds of other places, etc. She would likely stare blankly at you if you told her that as a politician, people expected her to be a Canadian first.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> Even if they didn't break any rules, I suspect the Ashton family is tone deaf as to why the optics are even bad. They're "citizen of the world" kind of people. Dad born in England, mom born in Greece, they've all spent lots of time in all kinds of other places, etc. She would likely stare blankly at you if you told her that as a politician, people expected her to be a Canadian first.


So which planet are you a citizen of?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Report warns against sole-sourced contracts amid talk of fighter jets purchase



> The Liberal government was warned late last year that a sole-sourced contract for big-ticket military purchases like fighter jets would be bound to drive up costs in the absence of an open competition.
> 
> The report, delivered to Public Services and Procurement Canada after the October election, found that choosing one company to provide equipment should be a "subordinate option" to a competitive process so taxpayers receive value for money.
> 
> The authors of the report, dated Dec. 17, say that developing better procurement practices is key if the Department of National Defence wants to go ahead with large-scale purchases, specifically referencing the CF-18 replacement process.
> 
> The team from PricewaterhouseCoopers listed a number of critical success factors to ensure companies didn't "game" the system and drive up costs in order to also drive up profits in absolute dollars.
> 
> That list included reducing the government's reliance on sole-sourced contracting and ensuring independent military specialists respected by government and industry reviewed costs to make sure they weren't inflated.


More:



> "Their campaign platform was pretty definitive about saying that they weren't going to buy one particular option, which I think was incredibly foolish of them to do so because it now means everything else they do is viewed through the lens of them having made that commitment," Perry said.


Keerist. Helicopters, all over again...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Time To Confront Economic Extremists 



> *Environment Canada has said that if the Oil Sands were completely shut down, carbon emissions would be cut by an infinitesimal 12/100th's of 1 percent!* Seems like a timely moment for a proper cost/benefit analysis of climate change action.


M'bold.

C'mon! I'sn't that worth it? We could shut down the whole country & make it 2%! Here we go...


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> So which planet are you a citizen of?





> OGL breathed life back into the dying Bloc...way to go Steve!
> 
> Ad links aka CLICK BATE in my posts were not put there by me.
> 
> DO NOT CLICK on the random links in my post if not logged in as a member of this site.


At least he doesn't have a sig that is so far out of date it's ridiculous as Steve's been gone a while now. You really need to catch up.


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> So which planet are you a citizen of?


I'm a citizen of Canada -- only. The rest of the world I just visit from time to time.

I'm not saying that Ashton is necessarily wrong, only pointing out that she probably doesn't even understand why other people might take exception to it.


----------



## SINC

Brad Wall gets it.

Saskatchewan’s Brad Wall warns the oilpatch is under siege by activists | Calgary Herald


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> I'm a citizen of Canada -- only. The rest of the world I just visit from time to time.
> 
> I'm not saying that Ashton is necessarily wrong, only pointing out that she probably doesn't even understand why other people might take exception to it.


I agree with you here. Far too many politicians from any party do not believe their first loyalty should be to Canada and Canadians!


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I agree with you here. Far too many politicians from any party do not believe their first loyalty should be to Canada and Canadians!


We are in agreement here, mon ami. This is why I like free votes, but realize that it goes against the grain of a parliamentary system.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> I agree with you here. Far too many politicians from any party do not believe their first loyalty should be to Canada and Canadians!


Based on that train of thought then should we be citizens of the city state? Our goals would be narrow cast self interest, pledge allegiance to my local area, do or die. 

I have read posts to that effect here at Emac in the past. Questioning why Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver have less rights and privileges than the Provinces especially PE Island.

My local area exists in one self contained bio-sphere. The only one we got, or has that been forgotten?


----------



## Macfury

Overall, I wish the cities had less of an influence.



BigDL said:


> Based on that train of thought then should we be citizens of the city state? Our goals would be narrow cast self interest, pledge allegiance to my local area, do or die.
> 
> I have read posts to that effect here at Emac in the past. Questioning why Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver have less rights and privileges than the Provinces especially PE Island.
> 
> My local area exists in one self contained bio-sphere. The only one we got, or has that been forgotten?


----------



## eMacMan

BigDL said:


> Based on that train of thought then should we be citizens of the city state? Our goals would be narrow cast self interest, pledge allegiance to my local area, do or die.
> 
> I have read posts to that effect here at Emac in the past. Questioning why Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver have less rights and privileges than the Provinces especially PE Island.
> 
> My local area exists in one self contained bio-sphere. The only one we got, or has that been forgotten?


So you support the Harper credo of multi-national corps, Banksters and the IRS first, Canada and Canadians dead last?


----------



## FeXL

Interesting.

Bernier takes aim at the CRTC, says it should be phased out as telecom czar



> Conservative party leader candidate Maxime Bernier is calling for a phase-out of the Canadian broadcast regulator's role as telecom watchdog as part of his plan to deregulate the industry.
> 
> He says the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission has stifled competition with some of its decisions.


----------



## FeXL

Liking this.

Greenpeace slapped with RICO lawsuit



> It looks as if Greenpeace is going to be taking a big sip from the Karma cup! A forest products company just slapped the organization with a RICO lawsuit of its own.
> 
> _Resolute Forest Products Inc filed a racketeering lawsuit against Greenpeace and some of its associates for its campaign criticizing the company’s forestry practices.
> 
> The Montreal, Quebec-based company said in a statement on Tuesday that the complaint, filed with the U.S. District Court for the Southern District Of Georgia, sought compensatory and other damages.
> 
> The complaint included racketeering, trademark, defamation and tortious interference claims against Greenpeace over its campaign titled “Resolute: Forest Destroyer.”
> 
> In the campaign, Greenpeace said Resolute, one of the largest producers of newsprint in North America, had destroyed Canada’s Boreal forest and woodland caribou habitat._​


Karma's a bitch...


----------



## Macfury

> He says the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission has stifled competition with some of its decisions.


What an understatement. In effect, they have protected the big players from competition for years. Every time they introduce a minor wrinkle that's supposed to help consumers (shorter cell contracts for example) the big players howl and tear at their hair shirts as though they're losing a pound of flesh—knowing full well they will get it back in vastly increased phone prices.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> What an understatement. In effect, they have protected the big players from competition for years. Every time they introduce a minor wrinkle that's supposed to help consumers (shorter cell contracts for example) the big players howl and tear at their hair shirts as though they're losing a pound of flesh—knowing full well they will get it back in vastly increased phone prices.


Yep. It'll be interesting to see how much support he gets from the populace on this. The Big Guys will fight it, tooth & nail.


----------



## FeXL

Rules are only for the little people.

WATCH: Premier Wynne leaves climate change announcement in gas guzzling SUV



> Premier Kathleen Wynne was at the Evergreen Brickworks in Toronto on Wednesday laying out the plan to fight climate change in the province.
> 
> Part of the plan is to encourage Ontarians to get behind the wheel of an electric car with a 'cash for clunkers' program.
> 
> That encourages people to trade in their inefficient, older vehicles, for newer vehicles.
> 
> *But with that in mind, the Premier left the event in a Chevrolet Suburban, which comes with a V8 engine.*


M'bold.


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> So you support the Harper credo of multi-national corps, Banksters and the IRS first, Canada and Canadians dead last?


I hardly think so!

I would prefer Social Democratic principles applied to the development of resources, and the means of production and wealth derived there from to be controlled by the people that produce the goods and services.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> WATCH: Premier Wynne leaves climate change announcement in gas guzzling SUV


Jeez... you'd think that given the missteps by Wynne over the past couple of years that her PR people would have been fired and new ones hired a few times over by now....

She should be like Pepe!!!!





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.




​
*Related: * Jose 'Pepe' Mujica Greeted by Volkswagen Caravan in Guatemala

_Former Uruguayan President Jose Mujica was greeted by a 35-car caravan of Volkswagon Beetles as he arrived in Guatemala for a conference Monday, in memory of the car the former president drove during his time in office.

“Strange things have happened to me with that Volkswagen,” said Mujica about his 1987 Beetle upon his arrival at the Guatemala City airport. The former leader did not go into detail about such events, however.

The caravan was organized to honor the former president, “a historic example that you can do politics without becoming rich,” said former Guatemalan President Vinicio Cerezo, who met Mujica at the airport.

“In Guatemala there is a strong social decomposition and Mujica is an icon of another way of doing things. And that inspires us to fight the battles we need to win,” added Cerezo._​
(Telesur)


----------



## SINC

Is anyone surprised?

Justin Trudeau tries to explain anti-Alberta interview, Tories want him fired | National Post

Like father, like son: Kenney says Justin Trudeau’s ‘arrogant anti-Alberta attitude’ is as bad as Pierre Trudeau’s | National Post


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Is anyone surprised?
> 
> Justin Trudeau tries to explain anti-Alberta interview, Tories want him fired | National Post
> 
> Like father, like son: Kenney says Justin Trudeau’s ‘arrogant anti-Alberta attitude’ is as bad as Pierre Trudeau’s | National Post


Speaking as a former American, I would rather see Justin stand up to the USA and the IRS. His predecessors tendencies to do as Washington and the IRS demanded have nearly obliterated Canadian sovereignty.


----------



## FeXL

Damn. Missed the PMO...

Large sinkhole opens up on Rideau Street



> An enormous sinkhole swallowed three lanes of Rideau Street Wednesday morning, consumed a parked van, forced the evacuation of the Rideau Centre and nearby hotels and businesses, and left Ottawa’s downtown core in a state of chaos that could continue for days to come.
> 
> City officials were reluctant to link the sinkhole to light rail tunnel construction happening two-dozen metres below, but whatever the cause, the effect is the indefinite shuttering of a key downtown intersection and the rerouting of dozens of OC Transpo and Gatineau STO buses that pick up thousands of commuters on Rideau Street every day.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s costly favouritism: Doles out public money for Ontario social spending, stalls on shovel-ready pipelines



> Justin Trudeau and the Liberals have no problem dedicating billions to Ontario’s infrastructure, but what’s it going to take for them to build a pipeline?
> 
> The Liberals will spend $120 billion of public money on infrastructure but a report by former Finance Minister Joe Oliver and Youri Chassin at the Montreal Economic Institute reveals the spending doesn’t include much for economic infrastructure. *Most of the money will go to affordable housing, child care and early learning, and climate change; social issues for the most part, not things that stimulate the economy.*


M'bold.

More:



> Trudeau will announce major infrastructure spending for Ontario, yet he has three major shovel ready projects in Energy East, Trans Mountain and Northern Gateway that will bring in $13.5 billion per year and create 25,000 jobs during construction. That's almost half of the $30 billion debt that the Liberals plan to accumulate.


Further:



> *We never get a straight answer out of Trudeau on pipeline approvals, but his caucus has no issue approving projects and ponying up money for Ontario.*
> 
> They’re picking favourites, and though these pipelines may not benefit every single localized region in the country, what the Liberals forget is that the gains will benefit the whole country.


Bold from the link.

Wait for it...


----------



## FeXL

Further on Fruit Fly Guy.

SHOCKING: FOI docs reveal how far elites go to satisfy “King Suzuki’s” demands and hide his flaws



> Canada’s patron saint of climate alarmism, David Suzuki, is at it again.
> 
> The renowned fruit fly biologist was touring the country during the election last summer and fall, touting his environmentally-inspired anti-Conservative agenda. For much of the summer, he was stumping for Leadnow, the American-funded group that was encouraging strategic voting against Conservatives. On Sept. 21, he also brought his message to the University of Ottawa, however, as a guest of the school’s IVote-JeVote program, spearheaded by professor Kevin Page, formerly the Parliamentary Budget Officer.


----------



## FeXL

Further Liberal Gov't malfeasance

Ontario Liberals abandon fund of more than $40 million that failed to stem the loss of nurses



> *The Ontario Liberals have been forced to abandon a fund of more than $40 million that failed to stem the loss of nurses in the province after spending 10 times more on expenses than on saving jobs*, Postmedia has learned.
> 
> A decade after the government created the Nursing Retention Fund because of a fear nurses would be felled by waves of pink slips, nurses say they’re more short-staffed than ever and have taken over stewardship of the money through their associations and union.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Just because the RCMP is under Federal jurisdiction.

Damage claims from RCMP's High River gun grab total $2.3 million



> Now, thanks to the dogged persistence of an ex-Mountie and former National Firearms Association director working out of his Airdrie home, we know exactly how much damage those police boots caused, as RCMP kicked in thousands of High River doors in a massive gun seizure since condemned as a shameful abuse of power.
> 
> “They shouldn’t have been inside the homes at all, not even one,” says Dennis Young, the former RCMP officer and firearms advocate that’s been a massive thorn in the side of his former force, ever since the great flood of 2013, and the great gun grab that followed.
> 
> *“In all, 2,210 homes were left damaged by the RCMP, and they should not have gone into those homes in the first place. People’s rights were violated, and that not only upsets me as a former member, I’ve heard from many RCMP veterans who are upset as well.”*


M'bold.

More:



> *It’s no wonder that last year the RCMP’s own Civilian Review and Complaints Commission condemned the High River gun grab as unlawful, blaming the rotten decision on poor leadership, lack of guidance and failure to communicate with the public.*
> 
> And now we know those heavy-handed search-and-seize tactics cost $2.3 million to repair — but that’s just broken doors and the like.
> 
> The damage the RCMP caused to the public trust through unlawful searches and seizures, and violation of privacy, isn’t something money will fix.


M'bold.

Yet, nothing will ever happen.


----------



## FeXL

Montreal decision to rename Vimy park in honour of Parizeau sparks criticism



> A Montreal borough's plan to pay tribute to late sovereigntist premier Jacques Parizeau by changing the name of a park that currently honours Vimy Ridge is being blasted by some critics as disrespectful to Canada's war history.
> 
> On Wednesday, the city's executive committee adopted a resolution in favour of a proposal to rename Parc Vimy in Outremont after Parizeau, the man who led the Yes side to a narrow defeat in the 1995 sovereignty referendum.
> 
> Former Liberal interim leader Bob Rae was one of many people who took to Twitter to denounce the decision, calling it "an insult."
> 
> *"Changing a park in Montreal from 'Vimy' to 'Jacques Parizeau' — and this during the 100th anniversary of WW1 — an insult pure and simple," he wrote.*


M'bold

Sums it up for me.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Robyn Urback: After campaigning off the backs of veterans, the Trudeau government turns its back to them



> Last August, flanked by decorated men and women in military uniforms, Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau stood before a crowd in Belleville, Ont., and announced that if he became prime minister, he would undo the damage that the Harper era inflicted on Canada’s relationship with its veterans.


And the result?



> *After campaigning off the backs of veterans, the Trudeau government seems to content to now turn its back to them. More than a broken promise — it’s a disgrace.*


M'bold.

And, I certainly don't agree with the writer when he he says broken electoral promises are "understandable"...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Robyn Urback: After campaigning off the backs of veterans, the Trudeau government turns its back to them
> 
> And the result?
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> And, I certainly don't agree with the writer when he he says broken electoral promises are "understandable"...


That did not sit at all well with me under the Harpoon. 

These wounded vets have already paid a very high price to the Harpoon's (and Trudeaus) MIC masters. Let the Arms Dealers and Banksters whom propagate and benefit from those wars, step up to the plate and take care of the Canadian Vets disabled in those (un)holy wars.


----------



## FeXL

Joe Oliver: Ontario’s electricity fiasco is going to get much, much worse



> What explains the Ontario Liberal government’s $7 billion Climate Change Action Plan, which will infringe on people’s freedom, impose debilitating costs, set impossible targets and fail to produce meaningful reductions in GHG emissions? The only answer can be ideological fervour, divorced from economic or practical reality.


More:



> This doctrinal cabal’s latest crackpot plan was too much even for some members of the premier’s cabinet, sparking near open revolt by several of her economic ministers. Apparently, they advocated for a semblance of rationality in the mayhem that is Liberal energy policy.


Further:



> *In Ottawa, $90,000 of questionable Senate expenses rallied calls to bring down a government and abolish the upper chamber. But in Ontario, tens of billions of dollars wasted on partisan skulduggery and ideological obsessions barely register on the political radar.*


M'bold.

Or, it could be that no matter what a lefty does, their supporters, along with the MSM, give them a passing grade...


----------



## FeXL

What's $900,000,000 between friends?

Scarborough subway extension will cost $900M more than initially thought



> The Scarborough subway extension will cost $900 million more than initially thought, Mayor John Tory has confirmed.
> 
> The cost of the one-stop extension of Line 2 from Kennedy Station to Scarborough Town Centre was initially pegged at $2 billion, however on Friday the mayor told reporters that further analysis by city staff has revealed the price tag to be $2.9 billion.
> 
> The increase in budget, Tory said, is due to engineering and planning work that has recently been conducted.
> 
> Previously the city had based its estimate on a ballpark figure for a three-stop subway extension that was scrapped back in January.
> 
> “The original plan for a three-stop subway extension was approved by city council without the support of any planning or design work. *In fact it was based on a sketch on a piece of paper given to the TTC,” Tory said.*


M'bold.

Then why were the numbers quoted in the first place?


----------



## Macfury

No kickbacks from that mall... right?



FeXL said:


> What's $900,000,000 between friends?
> 
> Scarborough subway extension will cost $900M more than initially thought
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Then why were the numbers quoted in the first place?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> No kickbacks from that mall... right?


Surely you're not suggesting...malfeasance?


----------



## eMacMan

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-truckers-wary-border-measure-cause-collision-u-113007541.html

This article really fails to explain the issue. First of all the 120 days allowed is a yearly average. The formula: SUM(All days stateside current year + one third of the days previous year + one sixth of the days from the year before that) > 182 days. Meet that criteria and as far as the IRS is concerned you are a resident of the USA. If you enter the country at 11:59PM the IRS says you were there the entire day. Ditto if you leave a minute after midnight.

Come up short and truckers can file the form 1040NR which only includes US income. 

Step over the line and they have to file Form 1040 which includes every dollar they made in that tax year. They must also file the F(u)BAR which includes their Name, Birthdate, Address, TIN or SIN, all their bank account #s including RRSPs and RTFAs, and balances for every account. This is electronically transmitted to an IRS-finCEN database intended primarily for gathering evidence against drug dealers and money launderers. Access to that database is given to any self-proclaimed government agency from almost any country in the world. Penalties for failure to file this report or making a one digit error are $10,000 or half of the maximum account value whichever is greater. 
NOTE: finCEN aka The IRS-Financial Criminal Extortion Network. 

That of course is just the beginning. If investments and bank accounts exceed $50,000 (remember he is a US resident) that poor trucker must also file 8938s. Depending on where his money is, he may also have to file 3520s. These forms are very hard to decipher and have penalties identical and in addition to the F(u)BAR and can triple down on the penalties. Cross-border tax vultures typically charge over $1000 for each of these forms they have to prepare.

A trucker in this mess could easily spend $5000+ annually just on cross border tax vultures, and lose everything he has to the IRS via assorted extortion forms. All without owing the yanks a dime in taxes.

Then it really gets to be fun. If that trucker is self employed he gets to pay his and employer shares of both CPP and Social Insurance. That would be roughly 25% of his annual profits. All because the Harpoon had no interest in insisting this flaw in Canada-US tax treaties should be fixed.

So next time any international truckers are in the pub they should raise a glass to the Harpoon and salute him for selling them out by signing the FATCA-IGA and giving Canadian blessings to the IRS attempts to extort money from Canadian citizens. To add insult and injury to the injury he even made the law effective on Canada Day 2014.

Wanna bet there are also some US extortion forms that apply exclusively to the trucking industry?


----------



## FeXL

Ontariowe's tax dollars at work. And, when even the Red star is taking note...

Annual report shows UPX was subsidized by province



> *The provincial government subsidized passengers on the troubled Union Pearson Express last year at a rate of $52.26 per ride.*
> 
> The astounding sum, which far exceeds the subsidy received by other Toronto-area public transit projects, was revealed in an annual report that came before the Metrolinx board Tuesday.


M'bold.


----------



## Macfury

Just about the price of a cab from Pearson for many locations.



FeXL said:


> Ontariowe's tax dollars at work. And, when even the Red star is taking note...
> 
> Annual report shows UPX was subsidized by province
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.


----------



## Dr.G.

Atlantica Party makes a return to Nova Scotia politics - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Granted, this deals with only Nova Scotia, but we are still part of the Canadian political scene.

Macfury, you might like this party.

Atlantica Party


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's disgusting to change the words of a National Anthem.


Really, really late on this one.

The English version of the National Anthem has changed at least a couple of times in the past so it is not sacrosanct... that is just our history and a fact. "In all thy sons command" was a change from the original and a battle cry for the great war. At that time it made sense. Now almost 100 years later changing it to "in all of us commands" also makes sense. I have no problem with the changing of the words at all.

The only problem I have is with the process. But that is Parliament and it can be manipulated in thousands of ways. I know why the government rushed it through and I also have no problem with that.

Strange, eh?


----------



## Macfury

It should have remained as originally written--never changed to suit the whims of Parliament. It's become a mishmash of badly expressed ideas.



screature said:


> Really, really late on this one.
> 
> The English version of the National Anthem has changed at least a couple of times in the past so it is not sacrosanct... that is just our history and a fact. "In all thy sons command" was a change from the original and a battle cry for the great war. At that time it made sense. Now almost 100 years later changing it to "in all of us commands" also makes sense. I have no problem with the changing of the words at all.
> 
> The only problem I have is with the process. But that is Parliament and it can be manipulated in thousands of ways. I know why the government rushed it through and I also have no problem with that.
> 
> Strange, eh?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> It should have remained as originally written--never changed to suit the whims of Parliament. It's become a mishmash of badly expressed ideas.



It was originally written in French.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> It was originally written in French.


Uh huh. First English version of course. The French have maintained the integrity of their own lyrics.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It should have remained as originally written--never changed to suit the whims of Parliament. It's become a mishmash of badly expressed ideas.


As I said it was at the whims of Parliament to change it from the original English lyrics to "in all our sons command" in the first place, the precedent was set along, long time ago now. So changing the the National Anthem lyrics is nothing new.

Not to mention who was actually responsible for accepting the original English lyrics...? Was there a referendum in which the public got to vote? Hunh...? No. It was an act of Parliament. So your protestation has no historical precedent and the people of Canada never had any say in the lyrics of their National Anthem from the very beginning. 

As for the Anthem being "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" *how does changing 2 words*, from "all our sons" to "all of us" all of a sudden make it "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas"?

If it is is "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" then it was also "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" in the revised version for the troops going off to WWI.

Me thinks your post and the whole CPC position on the matter is much ado about nothing.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> If it is is "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" then it was also "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" in the revised version for the troops going off to WWI.


Yes.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> As I said it was at the whims of Parliament to change it from the original English lyrics to "in all our sons command" in the first place, the precedent was set along, long time ago now. So changing the the National Anthem lyrics is nothing new.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention who was actually responsible for accepting the original English lyrics...? Was there a referendum in which the public got to vote? Hunh...? No. It was an act of Parliament. So your protestation has no historical precedent and the people of Canada never had any say in the lyrics of their National Anthem from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Anthem being "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" *how does changing 2 words*, from "all our sons" to "all of us" all of a sudden make it "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas"?
> 
> 
> 
> If it is is "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" then it was also "a mishmash of badly expressed ideas" in the revised version for the troops going off to WWI.
> 
> 
> 
> Me thinks your post and the whole CPC position on the matter is much ado about nothing.



Well said, Steve.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yes.


So then you didn't like the Anthem before I presume. So how does the current change make the Anthem worse?


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> So then you didn't like the Anthem before I presume. So how does current change make the Anthem worse?



I get the feeling he would find fault no matter what. It's what he does. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So then you didn't like the Anthem before I presume. So how does the current change make the Anthem worse?


I'm a purist so far as such things go. There is a historical resilience that is destroyed each time some meddling Parliament attempts to take the art form of song and alter it using the cloddish tools of government. In Orwellian sense, there is then no actual anthem--it's whatever the government of the day tells you it is.


----------



## SINC

I was taught to sing the anthem in the first grade in 1950 and it is the only one I know the words to, or for that matter recognize. That version has been tinkered with a number of times over the years. The first time they changed the words was the last time I ever sang the anthem, or for that matter stood up for it. That day it became someone else's anthem, not mine or that of the country I was born in.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> So then you didn't like the Anthem before I presume. So how does the current change make the Anthem worse?


The fact that they are changing it is the bad part, not when it was changed or what it was changed to.


----------



## fjnmusic

So some of you don't like the fact that it was changed? Perhaps you'd prefer the original English words you Thomas B. Richardson:

O Canada! Our fathers' land of old
Thy brow is crown'd with leaves of red and gold.
Beneath the shade of the Holy Cross
Thy children own their birth
No stains thy glorious annals gloss
Since valour shield thy hearth.
Almighty God! On thee we call
Defend our rights, forfend this nation's thrall,
Defend our rights, forfend this nation's thrall.


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----------



## fjnmusic

Or perhaps you'd prefer the 1909 version penned by Mrs. Mercy E. Powell McCulloch:

O Canada! In praise of thee we sing;
From echoing hills our anthems proudly ring.
With fertile plains and mountains grand
With lakes and rivers clear,
Eternal beauty, thos dost stand
Throughout the changing year.
Lord God of Hosts! We now implore
Bless our dear land this day and evermore,
Bless our dear land this day and evermore.


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----------



## fjnmusic

Perhaps the Ewing Buchan version is more to your liking:

O Canada, our heritage, our love
Thy worth we praise all other lands above.
From sea to see throughout their length
From Pole to borderland,
At Britain's side, whate'er betide
Unflinchingly we'll stand
With hearts we sing, ‘God save the King.’
Guide then one Empire wide, do we implore,
And prosper Canada from shore to shore.


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----------



## fjnmusic

Or how about the multi-verse version by Robert Stanley Weir (1908, revised up until 1927). 

O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love thou dost in us command.
We see thee rising fair, dear land,
The True North, strong and free;
And stand on guard, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
Refrain
O Canada! O Canada!
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee.
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee.

O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,
Great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow,
How dear to us thy broad domain,
From East to Western Sea;
Thou land of hope for all who toil!
Thou True North, strong and free!
(Refrain)

O Canada! Beneath thy shining skies
May stalwart sons and gentle maidens rise,
To keep thee steadfast through the years,
From East to Western Sea.
Our own beloved native land,
Our True North, strong and free!
(Refrain)

Ruler Supreme, Who hearest humble prayer,
Hold our dominion within Thy loving care.
Help us to find, O God, in Thee,
A lasting, rich reward,
As waiting for the Better Day
We ever stand on guard.
(Refrain)

You see, it is little disingenuous to say you prefer the original version, since none of us were even around to here it at the time. If you want to hear the original version, listen to it in French. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

The first three are all disjointed attempts at a literal translation of the french lyrics. They didn't actually make sense in english, (like most literal translations of anything) nor did they fit the melody of the song. There's a reason those ones never caught on.

Robert Stanley Weir's is the one we are talking about -- the first written specifically for the english audience version -- and yes, it should have been left as is. Do we need to sing all of the verses every time? Maybe not. But we should still learn them in school.

We should also learn The Maple Leaf Forever, and God Save The King/Queen. A lot of schools don't even sing the latter anymore.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> The first three are all disjointed attempts at a literal translation of the french lyrics. They didn't actually make sense in english, (like most literal translations of anything) nor did they fit the melody of the song. There's a reason those ones never caught on.
> 
> Robert Stanley Weir's is the one we are talking about -- the first written specifically for the english audience version -- and yes, it should have been left as is. Do we need to sing all of the verses every time? Maybe not. But we should still learn them in school.
> 
> We should also learn The Maple Leaf Forever, and God Save The King/Queen. A lot of schools don't even sing the latter anymore.


Next thing you know, Parliament could take on the task of rewriting bits and pieces of poems. I think "In Flanders Fields" could use a good updating so the kids will like it better. Maybe take out the references to guns.


----------



## MacGuiver2.0

Macfury said:


> Next thing you know, Parliament could take on the task of rewriting bits and pieces of poems. I think "In Flanders Fields" could use a good updating so the kids will like it better. Maybe take out the references to guns.


And don't forget the crosses. The mention of them or God can cause progressives to recoil and hiss.


----------



## CubaMark

*Some of y'all might want to consider picking this up:*


(Amazon)

*Related:*


----------



## Macfury

When are you going to start following those directives yourself, CM? I've never seen such an angry old socialist in my life. Your abuse of the "mad" emoticon would indicate a visit to the doctor is in order--never know when one of those arteries is about to burst.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I'm a purist so far as such things go. There is a historical resilience that is destroyed each time some meddling Parliament attempts to take the art form of song and alter it using the cloddish tools of government. In Orwellian sense, there is then no actual anthem--it's whatever the government of the day tells you it is.





SINC said:


> I was taught to sing the anthem in the first grade in 1950 and it is the only one I know the words to, or for that matter recognize. That version has been tinkered with a number of times over the years. The first time they changed the words was the last time I ever sang the anthem, or for that matter stood up for it. That day it became someone else's anthem, not mine or that of the country I was born in.


IMO you both need to realize the only constant is change. 2 words my friends, 2 words that is all and it brings us back closer to the original English lyrics.


----------



## Macfury

Not buying it screature.


----------



## screature

Furthermore, you seem to forget that in the Speech from the Throne in 2011 the Conservative Government proposed a similar change to the Anthem.

It was only with the backlash from a minority of their supporters that they decided to leave the Anthem change alone. They simply kowtowed, for political purposes rather than doing what they proposed in the Speech from the Throne. Quite frankly they disregarded the good principle that they were trying to create and did what was what they thought in their terms was politically expedient rather than doing the right thing that they proposed in 2011.

MF as for being a purist I guess you thought that Jimi Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner was an abomination.

As for your other comments regrading changing the lines to "In Flanders Fields", that is a red herring comment. The Parliament of Canada did not in any way approve of or disapprove of any of the words in the authours poem because they did not have the right to.

There is no law in the world that can claim that is not within the right of a Parliament/Government to change the wording of a National Anthem and thank god for that.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Not buying it screature.


I don't care. You are on the wrong side of history when it comes to this issue.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> IMO you both need to realize the only constant is change. 2 words my friends, 2 words that is all and it brings us back closer to the original English lyrics.



Some people can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way. The fact that today's lyrics, even the lyrics from 40 years ago are a far cry from the original lyrics seems to not register on some of these folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Furthermore, you seem to forget that in the Speech from the Throne in 2011 the Conservative Government proposed a similar change to the Anthem.
> 
> 
> 
> It was only with the backlash from a minority of their supporters that they decided to leave the Anthem change alone. They simply kowtowed, for political purposes rather than doing what they proposed in the Speech from the Throne. Quite frankly they disregarded the good principle that they were trying to create and did what was what they thought in their terms was politically expedient rather than doing the right thing that they proposed in 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> MF as for being a purist I guess you thought that Jimi Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner was an abomination.
> 
> 
> 
> As for your other comments regrading changing the lines to "In Flanders Fields", that is a red herring comment. The Parliament of Canada did not in any way approve of or disapprove of any of the words in the authours poem because they did not have the right to.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no law in the world that can claim that is not within the right of a Parliament/Government to change the wording of a National Anthem and thank god for that.



FWIW, I've always liked the first two verses of Flander's Fields, but I question the intent of the third verse, often referred to as the recruitment verse. "Take up our quarrel with the foe" is a direct call to continue the war, not to end it, and the ghosts of the dead soldiers will haunt us if we don't. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rps

For my two cents, I ask the question who owns the national anthem....the people or Parliament? My son was at an Argo game last week and they rolled out the two word change, which came with massive booing. Not picking sides here but the real issue is the way the change was done, not the change, at least in my opinion. Recent polls I have seen show 70% do not wish to have the anthem changed. For my money I think we have a boring anthem. I prefer The Maple Leaf Forever. That said, I always found the Bilingual version that the Montreal Canadiennes use as the better choice.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Furthermore, you seem to forget that in the Speech from the Throne in 2011 the Conservative Government proposed a similar change to the Anthem.
> 
> It was only with the backlash from a minority of their supporters that they decided to leave the Anthem change alone. They simply kowtowed, for political purposes rather than doing what they proposed in the Speech from the Throne. Quite frankly they disregarded the good principle that they were trying to create and did what was what they thought in their terms was politically expedient rather than doing the right thing that they proposed in 2011.


I haven't forgotten the Conservative promise to change the anthem. I did not support it then.



screature said:


> MF as for being a purist I guess you thought that Jimi Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner was an abomination.


He did not change the lyrics.



screature said:


> As for your other comments regrading changing the lines to "In Flanders Fields", that is a red herring comment. The Parliament of Canada did not in any way approve of or disapprove of any of the words in the authours poem because they did not have the right to.
> 
> There is no law in the world that can claim that is not within the right of a Parliament/Government to change the wording of a National Anthem and thank god for that.


Thank goodness they don't have that power. They would ruin the poem as they are ruining the anthem!



screature said:


> I don't care. You are on the wrong side of history when it comes to this issue.


I'm on the right side of history, but on the wrong side of cheap populism!


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> Furthermore, you seem to forget that in the Speech from the Throne in 2011 the Conservative Government proposed a similar change to the Anthem.


_Very good memory, screature. Pretty difficult position for the usual suspects here to be up in arms when the political leader they supported for the previous decade or so also thought at one point that it was a Good Idea©. For those who can cease their wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth:_

*Reaction from Tory base forces quick reversal on anthem lyrics idea*

Stephen Harper, a man not known for political U-turns, has beat the quickest retreat in his career after facing a backlash from the Conservative Party base over his proposal to rewrite O Canada.

The Prime Minister's Office announced Friday the government is abandoning the notion of replacing the line in the anthem about "all thy sons command" with a gender-neutral substitute.

* * *​
Conservative voters, more likely than not, are male, married and middle-aged or elderly. Predominately middle-income in earnings power, they often live in suburban or rural Canada.

The most hard-core Conservatives would see rewriting O Canada as "tampering with sacred symbols," said Prof. Flanagan, a University of Calgary political scientist.

(Globe & Mail)


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## MacGuiver2.0

If you think this is the only change the perpetually offended snowflakes will make, think again. When the progressives are done with the national anthem sanitizing it to their non offensive PC world view, it will be nothing like the original. Next on the chopping block will be mention of God. "Our home and native land" has to go since its offensive to first nations sensibilities. Its their land, not ours. Maybe we'll need an LGBTXYZ reference added in there somewhere as well, though a new rainbow flanked maple leaf flag could suffice. And that whole "stand on guard for thee" doesn't sound very welcoming and inclusive. Sounds like we want to build a wall.


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## Macfury

MacGuiver2.0 said:


> If you think this is the only change the perpetually offended snowflakes will make, think again. When the progressives are done with the national anthem sanitizing it to their non offensive PC world view, it will be nothing like the original. Next on the chopping block will be mention of God. "Our home and native land" has to go since its offensive to first nations sensibilities. Its their land, not ours. Maybe we'll need an LGBTXYZ reference added in there somewhere as well, though a new rainbow flanked maple leaf flag could suffice. And that whole "stand on guard for thee" doesn't sound very welcoming and inclusive. Sounds like we want to build a wall.


Hush, MacGuiver--you are on the wrong side of this issue. The anthem belongs to each elected Parliament to change as they wish to suit their political ends. We could have dueling anthems that switch back and forth depending on which party is elected!


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## FeXL

The Three Amigos can kiss my hairy, unwashed arse...

'Three Amigos' Call For North American 'Integration'



> North America’s three heads of state called for greater political and economic integration on Wednesday during a joint press conference in Canada’s capital. In light of last week’s national referendum in the UK to withdraw itself from the European Union, *President Obama, Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto, and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau hinted at the genesis of a North American counterpart to the European superstate.*


M'bold.


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## heavyall

screature said:


> Furthermore, you seem to forget that in the Speech from the Throne in 2011 the Conservative Government proposed a similar change to the Anthem.



Literally no one is forgetting that. They proposed the change, intelligent Canadians told them to stop making changes to the anthem, and since the Conservatives actually believe in democracy, they listened to the people and left it alone.

And they did the right thing. The very idea of changing the anthem should not be an available option, and the fact that others have done it in the past is not a good reason to compound the mistake and do it again.


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## CubaMark

Do I dare post this? Wouldn't want to risk any damage to the Rabid Right in here....  I can hear the conniptions starting already.... :lmao:


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## Macfury

He's better off dancing witlessly in a parade than he is in Parliament. Wish he would take his deer-in-the-headlights face to more photo ops.


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## Macfury

I knew Trudeau reminded me of someone and this photo cleared it up for me:


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## Macfury

*Props to Pride exec*

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...n-pride-organizers-to-explain-parade-ban.html

Glad to see this guy has the stones not to bow down to these disruptors:



> Pride Toronto’s executive director says he signed a list of demands from Black Lives Matter to end the group’s blockade of Sunday’s Pride parade, but has no plans to honour them before consulting with his community.
> 
> Those demands — which include banning police floats from future parades — will now be for Pride’s membership and the community to pass judgment on, Mathieu Chantelois told the Star in a phone interview Monday.
> 
> “What’s important for people to know is that I’m not deciding what’s in the parade, Alica (Hall, co-chair of Pride’s board of directors) doesn’t decide what’s in the parade, Black Lives Matter doesn’t . . . decide what’s in the parade,” Chantelois said. “Who’s deciding what’s in the parade is the membership, and my community . . . We will let them have the final word.
> 
> “What I did (Sunday) was made the parade move.”


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## screature

Rps said:


> For my two cents, I ask the question who owns the national anthem....the people or Parliament? My son was at an Argo game last week and they rolled out the two word change, which came with massive booing. Not picking sides here but the real issue is the way the change was done, not the change, at least in my opinion. Recent polls I have seen show 70% do not wish to have the anthem changed. For my money I think we have a boring anthem. I prefer The Maple Leaf Forever. That said, I always found the Bilingual version that the Montreal Canadiennes use as the better choice.


The question you ask is moot because no one owns the National Anthem, no one owns the flag. They were both decided upon by due elected elected MPs. It does not mean they own it, they just supported the changes and thus why duly elected MPs can change them again.

Anthems and National flags are voted upon in Parliament. That is the way it has always been without exception. If you or anyone else wants it to be otherwise lobby your various MPs to change the system. But the way the system is now and always has been it is elected MPs who get to decide and not the general public though some form or other of referendum.


----------



## FeXL

On the contrary, I agree with MF & think it's fantastic.

The more time he spends out of the PMO & not figgering out ways to screw the country over, the better.

Maybe he can come out to some of Rachel's Folk Fests this summer. That outta eat up a few weeks...



CubaMark said:


> Do I dare post this? Wouldn't want to risk any damage to the Rabid Right in here....  I can hear the conniptions starting already.... :lmao:


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I haven't forgotten the Conservative promise to change the anthem. I did not support it then.


Fair enough, but just remember the same process was in place then as it is now.



Macfury said:


> He did not change the lyrics.


No he did not. He was too smart to do that. He changed the music and thus changed the meaning big time. Instead of being a tribute of defense and a battle cry for Independence, he changed it musically to represent the mass political attitude of the day, which was that of against an expansionist USA, taking power wherever they could take it.

Instead of "bombs" bursting into air for defense, he made it "bombs" bursting into air for offense. For those who have ears to hear it, it is plane and simple.



Macfury said:


> I thank goodness they don't have that power. They would ruin the poem as they are ruining the anthem!


The 2 are completely unrelated yet you still try to continue to build a red herring defense of you potion.



Macfury said:


> I'm on the right side of history, but on the wrong side of cheap populism!


No you are not. You have not presented one shred of evidence that your position has any bearing in president or Parliamentary procedure. Thus all that is left is your opinion, which you are entitled to but it does not make you entitled to argue the facts.

If you would like things to be different that is what elections are for...

In case you forgot, with the previous Government being in place I defended their procedures because they were lawful, it didn't mean I agreed with them just like I don't necessarily do now.

I am a free agent and just do a job according to the rules as they currently exist.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> No he did not. He was too smart to do that. He changed the music and thus changed the meaning big time. Instead of being a tribute of defense and a battle cry for Independence, he changed it musically to represent the mass political attitude of the day, which was that of against an expansionist USA, taking power wherever they could take it.
> 
> Instead of "bombs" bursting into air for defense, he made it "bombs" bursting into air for offense. For those who have ears to hear it, it is plane and simple.


Of the 50 or so renditions of the Star Spangled Banner performed by Hendrix it would be difficult to say exactly what was on his mind. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.



screature said:


> The 2 are completely unrelated yet you still try to continue to build a red herring defense of you potion.


_In Flanders Fields_ and the anthem are related--they are both poetry whose artistic integrity would be crushed by political hackery.



screature said:


> No you are not. You have not presented one shred of evidence that your position has any bearing in president or Parliamentary procedure. Thus all that is left is your opinion, which you are entitled to but it does not make you entitled to argue the facts.


I didn't say that political procedure agreed with me. I said that I was on the right side of history.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Of the 50 or so renditions of the Star Spangled Banner performed by Hendrix i*t would be difficult to say exactly what was on his mind. *You're certainly entitled to your opinion.


True but it certainly was not the Star Spangled Banner as it was known then. He changed it for a reason. If only musically he changed the meaning in his own terms. They were not accepted by the public writ large.



Macfury said:


> I_In Flanders Fields_ and the anthem are related--they are both poetry whose artistic integrity would be crushed by political hackery.


Hockey pucks!!! They have nothing to do with each other. One is a poem written without being subject to the consent of Parliament for consideration to be the National Anthem, the other has to be considered by Parliament. 



Macfury said:


> II didn't say that political procedure agreed with me. I said that I was on the right side of history.


You are on the wrong side of history when it comes to precedent and even further on the wrong side when it comes to modern history.

In this day and age with a cosmopolitan society it makes absolutely no sense to maintain a gender bias in our National Anthem, specific to our "boys/sons" going off to war. What makes much more sense is to have gender neutral Anthem that speaks to *US ALL*.

Tell me, how is the Anthem worse now with the changing of 2 words?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> True but it certainly was not the Star Spangled Banner as it was known then. He changed it for a reason. If only musically he changed the meaning in his own terms. They were not accepted by the public writ large.


Thankfully, it had no affect on the real anthem.



screature said:


> Hockey pucks!!! They have nothing to do with each other. One is a poem written without being subject to the consent of Parliament for consideration to be the National Anthem, the other has to be considered by Parliament.


If the anthem were that poem, they would be just as quick to change it. Both are works of art, which should not be altered on the whims of political hacks.




screature said:


> You are on the wrong side of history when it comes to precedent and even further on the wrong side when it comes to modern history.
> 
> In this day and age with a cosmopolitan society it makes absolutely no sense to maintain a gender bias in our National Anthem, specific to our "boys/sons" going off to war. What makes much more sense is to have gender neutral Anthem that speaks to *US ALL*.
> 
> Tell me, how is the Anthem worse now with the changing of 2 words?


There are a lot of snowflakes out there with no respect for history, art or tradition and who are motivated primarily by their own egos and the whims of the moment. I accept that I am not part of that group. Happy in fact! (Maybe we should just hum the anthem and dispense with all words--then it will mean something even to people who have no knowledge of English. How could that make it worse?)


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Thankfully, it had no affect on the real anthem.
> 
> If the anthem were that poem, they would be just as quick to change it. Both are works of art, which should not be altered on the whims of political hacks.
> 
> There are a lot of snowflakes out there with no respect for history, art or tradition and who are motivated primarily by their own egos and the whims of the moment. I accept that I am not part of that group. Happy in fact! (Maybe we should just hum the anthem and dispense with all words--then it will mean something even to people who have no knowledge of English. How could that make it worse?)


You seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that the English version of the National Anthem has changed time and again. This time is just like all those other times, they were voted upon in Parliament.

So in your estimation there should only be one National Anthem no matter how much the country or times change... lets say from being a totalitarian state to become a democratic state. So in your view the anthem is sacrosanct and it should remain the same forever. Remember once again that is was Parliament that decided what our national anthem should be and they have free will to change it however they please. 

No one owns the national anthem just like no one owns a province or county. But certain people are put in charge via an election. Those people that we put in charge can toss the national anthem altogether and create a new one, or just change 2 words to the existing one. I think the latter is a more palatable choice for most Canadians.

You continually seem to forget that this is nothing new, you just have a bee in your bonnet because it was a Liberal MP who put forward the PMB which was completely and fully within the practices of the House of Commons. You are just sore that someone else got their way that opposed your point of view. I suspect that if there were changes that were in favour of you would have no problem with them.

Too bad for you, times change.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> So in your estimation there should only be one National Anthem no matter how much the country or times change....


Yes! Though I understand the necessity of switching between _God Save the Queen_ and _God Save the King._


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yes!


Wrong minded thinking...

If that were the truth we would still be living in caves.


----------



## Macfury

Not all change is progress.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, I'll be the first to admit that the connection that Ezra is attempting to make here between Red Rachel & no Alberta oil investment is tenuous at best. One of the reasons I say that is because these companies didn't invest in Saskatchewan oil, either.

However, both are obviously Canadian provinces and we all know how the Hairdo feels about attempts to get approval for pipelines. I believe PM Pompadour is a far greater factor in this equation. If you can't get your oil to market...

Chevron, Exxon invest $36 BILLION in Kazakhstan instead of Alberta — thanks to Notley NDP



> Two big oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, have announced they’re going to invest $36.8 billion dollars US to expand their existing oil project in Kazakhstan, in Central Asia.
> 
> British Petroleum announced $8 billion to build liquefied natural gas infrastructure in Indonesia. A large Italian oil company announced $4 billion to develop offshore gas in Egypt.
> 
> Those are rough countries. But they’ve just locked in about fifty billion dollars of oil and gas investment, even though world prices are low.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, yer too young to join the army, can't sit down with yer friends & have a pint, two years until you can vote, but yer old enough to take it...youknowwhere.

Trudeau promises to decriminalize anal sex for 16-year-olds



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told a homosexual news agency his government will be “moving on” lowering the age of consent on anal sex for consenting unmarried partners from 18 to 16 in Canada’s Criminal Code.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Not all change is progress.


No they are not necessarily. But in this particular case I think change is actually good.

I had some difficulty in deciding my position one the matter, but in the end my head ruled over my heart. Just me probably, but when I thought about it more and more my head won out.

Nothing illegal about the Parliamentary process which is how all national anthems has been decided upon before and amending just 2 words for a more inclusive National Anthem is the correct thing to do IMO.

I really have no problem with the process which resulted in the changing of 2 words of the National Anthem. Perhaps you had a problem with the process that resulted in the abandoning of the LGR, a much more significant change to the laws of the nation?

At this point we shall have to just to just agree to disagree otherwise the debate will continue on ad nauseam, Neither one of us is going to convince the other. We have both had our say now and we will just have to wait and see how things shake out.

Peace.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> No it is not necessarily. But in this particular case I think it actually is...
> 
> I had some difficulty in deciding my position one the matter, but in the end my head ruled over my heart. Just me probably, but when I thought about it more and more my head won out.
> 
> Nothing illegal about the Parliamentary process which is how all national anthems have been decided upon before and amending just 2 words for a more inclusive National Anthem.
> 
> I really have no problem with the process or of the changing of 2 words.
> 
> At this point we shall have to just to just agree to disagree otherwise the debate will continue on ad nauseam, Neither one of us is going to convince the other. We have both had our say now and we will just have to wait and see how things shake out.
> 
> Peace.


Very good points, screature. :clap: Interesting, but I always had difficulty with the word "thy" in "in all thy sons command". Now, with "in all of us command", we now are not only gender-neutral, but the word "thy" is gone. A win-win in my view.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

No, it isn't illegal, but I think it should be extremely difficult to do. You think this case is good enough to change it and I don't. It will probably embolden political hacks to keep massaging it every election cycle or two. But I'm content to leave the discussion there and I enjoyed the exchange--made me research and think.



screature said:


> No they are not necessarily. But in this particular case I think change is actually good.
> 
> I had some difficulty in deciding my position one the matter, but in the end my head ruled over my heart. Just me probably, but when I thought about it more and more my head won out.
> 
> Nothing illegal about the Parliamentary process which is how all national anthems has been decided upon before and amending just 2 words for a more inclusive National Anthem is the correct thing to do IMO.
> 
> I really have no problem with the process which resulted in the changing of 2 words of the National Anthem. Perhaps you had a problem with the process that resulted in the abandoning of the LGR, a much more significant change to the laws of the nation?
> 
> At this point we shall have to just to just agree to disagree otherwise the debate will continue on ad nauseam, Neither one of us is going to convince the other. We have both had our say now and we will just have to wait and see how things shake out.
> 
> Peace.


----------



## SINC

Sorry, but 'in all of us command' is meaningless.

Please explain to me what the hell that means?

I understand the term 'all of us command' but, adding 'in' makes it meaningless and serves little more good than to suit the melody.

When an anthem is changed as an immotional reaction to an MP's plea that serves no purpose other than to leave a memory, to a handicapped or dying MP or not, is a disservice to both the country and its people.

Once again, 'dogoodery' triumphs over common sense.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Sorry, but 'in all of us command' is meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain to me what the hell that means?
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the term 'all of us command' but, adding 'in' makes it meaningless and serves little more good than to suit the melody.
> 
> 
> 
> When an anthem is changed as an immotional reaction to an MP's plea that serves no purpose other than to leave a memory, to a handicapped or dying MP or not, is a disservice to both the country and its people.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, 'dogoodery' triumphs over common sense.



In my opinion it's an awkwardly worded phrase either way. I Canada is ultimately a pledge of allegiance—all anthems are—that should there ever be a war, we who sing this song will fight to defend our country. At k w time, it was only men that fought in wars, so "sons" made more sense, and "thy" was for the figurative technique of apostrophe/personification being used; Canada was being addressed as though it were a person that we are pledging our allegiance to. 

That's all fine and dandy in the case of conscription, but otherwise it's a little presumptuous to make "all thy sons" swear an oath that they may not be prepared to follow through with. With "in all of us" it's even worse, because we know most people are not likely to join the army to defend our borders. Takes special kind of person for that. And to top it off, I've always been puzzled why French speaking people would want to pledge an oath of allegiance to a British monarch in the first place, what with Canada being a commonwealth nation and all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## screature

SINC said:


> Sorry, but *'in all of us command'* is meaningless.
> 
> Please explain to me what the hell that means?
> 
> I understand the term 'all of us command' but, adding 'in' makes it meaningless and serves little more good than to suit the melody.
> 
> *When an anthem is changed as an immotional (sic) reaction to an MP's plea that serves no purpose other than to leave a memory, to a handicapped or dying MP or not, is a disservice to both the country and its people.
> *
> Once again, 'dogoodery' triumphs over common sense.


It means we have a commitment that is IN ALL of us to our country whether we are first generation or 9th (which I am).

The meaning couldn't be more plain, simple and inclusive. Much better that than in "all thy sons" command IMO. Just like MF I will simply have to agree to disagree with you as neither one of us will change each other's point of view.

You really believe that? if so man you are cold. Your words couldn't be further from the truth. He, the Libs and the NDP believed passionately in this change to our National Anthem. Yes the fact that he was dying expedited the process. But the fact remains it would have happened one way or the other. IMO it is better that it happened while he was still alive... even though just barely.

I know you and MF will disagree, but I don't really care. Due process was followed and that is all we can expect these days so it seems... Harper and the PMO seemed to take some liberties when it came to due process, but then again that is another discussion.

What National Anthem is not meant to be emotional???


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Sorry, but 'in all of us command' is meaningless.
> 
> Please explain to me what the hell that means?
> 
> I understand the term 'all of us command' but, adding 'in' makes it meaningless and serves little more good than to suit the melody.
> 
> When an anthem is changed as an immotional reaction to an MP's plea that serves no purpose other than to leave a memory, to a handicapped or dying MP or not, is a disservice to both the country and its people.
> 
> Once again, 'dogoodery' triumphs over common sense.


Agreed. Just terrible writing.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Sorry, but 'in all of us command' is meaningless.
> 
> Please explain to me what the hell that means?
> 
> I understand the term 'all of us command' but, adding 'in' makes it meaningless and serves little more good than to suit the melody.
> 
> When an anthem is changed as an immotional reaction to an MP's plea that serves no purpose other than to leave a memory, to a handicapped or dying MP or not, is a disservice to both the country and its people.
> 
> Once again, 'dogoodery' triumphs over common sense.





Macfury said:


> Agreed. Just terrible writing.


You can fuss and fume all you like but It is our Nation Anthem now, not like it was that great in the first place but at least it is better now.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> You can fuss and fume all you like but It is our Nation Anthem now, not like it was that great in the first place but at least it is better now.


Nope it is not better now. It is worse and passed by Parliament.


----------



## Dr.G.

'Trump Bump' inquiries overwhelm Cape Breton tourism - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free of Trump .............


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> 'Trump Bump' inquiries overwhelm Cape Breton tourism - Nova Scotia - CBC News
> 
> Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free of Trump .............


They will come only to discover that thanks to Harper and Trudeau they have been FATCA'd.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> They will come only to discover that thanks to Harper and Trudeau they have been FATCA'd.


Well, as Benjamin Franklin once wrote in 1789 "... in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.” 

And, as Emiliano Zapata once was quoted to say, "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." During the 1910 Mexican Revolution, land reform was the main issue about which Zapata cared, so I am not sure how he would have reacted to Trump's Mexican wall.


----------



## Macfury

Cesar Chavez would have voted for Trump on that alone!



Dr.G. said:


> During the 1910 Mexican Revolution, land reform was the main issue about which Zapata cared, so I am not sure how he would have reacted to Trump's Mexican wall.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> Well, as Benjamin Franklin once wrote in 1789 "... in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.”
> 
> 
> 
> And, as Emiliano Zapata once was quoted to say, "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." During the 1910 Mexican Revolution, land reform was the main issue about which Zapata cared, so I am not sure how he would have reacted to Trump's Mexican wall.



I learned that expression as a Klingon proverb. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Cesar Chavez would have voted for Trump on that alone!


Zapata favored land reform, NOT Trump. Trump would have had Cesar Chavez either imprisoned, or sent back to Mexico, even though Chavez was born in Yuma, Arizona (those sorts of details don't seem to bother Trump).


----------



## Dr.G.

fjnmusic said:


> I learned that expression as a Klingon proverb.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, depending upon which expression to which you were referring, it was either Franklin or Zapata. Still, as it is written in "The World According to Macfury", "Never let the facts get in the way of your making an important sounding statement."

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## fjnmusic

Dr.G. said:


> Sorry, depending upon which expression to which you were referring, it was either Franklin or Zapata. Still, as it is written in "The World According to Macfury", "Never let the facts get in the way of your making an important sounding statement."
> 
> 
> 
> Paix, mon ami.




Exactement, as Le Fureur de Mac would say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

We know JT wants to legalize weed. We also know that he, just like the Harpoon, is owned by the mega corps. We also know that big pharma is rabidly opposed to legalization. So JT may be facing a scary choice: Keep a key campaign promise or please his masters.

Good article showing why big pharma will be applying the screws.
One striking chart shows why pharma companies are fighting legal marijuana | Colorado Springs Gazette, News



> They found that, in the 17 states with a medical-marijuana law in place by 2013, prescriptions for painkillers and other classes of drugs fell sharply compared with states that did not have a medical-marijuana law. The drops were quite significant: In medical-marijuana states, the average doctor prescribed 265 fewer doses of antidepressants each year, 486 fewer doses of seizure medication, 541 fewer anti-nausea doses and 562 fewer doses of anti-anxiety medication.
> 
> But most strikingly, the typical physician in a medical-marijuana state prescribed 1,826 fewer doses of painkillers in a given year.


Note those numbers are doses so 1800 doses of painkillers probably equals 6-10 fewer chronic pain suffers on opiods per doctor. Still multiplied by a fairly large number of physicians across the nation that's a pretty big hit for the pill pushers.


----------



## Macfury

Does that mean that those who used marijuana in these states never used it before it was legalized? What you're saying can only be true if these people either started to use marijuana or are consuming more of it after legalization.



eMacMan said:


> We know JT wants to legalize weed. We also know that he, just like the Harpoon, is owned by the mega corps. We also know that big pharma is rabidly opposed to legalization. So JT may be facing a scary choice: Keep a key campaign promise or please his masters.
> 
> Good article showing why big pharma will be applying the screws.
> One striking chart shows why pharma companies are fighting legal marijuana | Colorado Springs Gazette, News
> 
> 
> 
> Note those numbers are doses so 1800 doses of painkillers probably equals 6-10 fewer chronic pain suffers on opiods per doctor. Still multiplied by a fairly large number of physicians across the nation that's a pretty big hit for the pill pushers.


----------



## eMacMan

The comparison is not before and after, but between states that do have legalized medical marijuana and those that do not. 

Interestingly the varieties that are most effective medically tend towards low levels of THCs and higher levels of CBDs. So street weed may not be a good substitute as those are bred for high (pun intended) THC content.


----------



## Macfury

The chart looks at drops in use before and after legalization in legalized states and compares that to non-legalized states. What the stats appear to be showing is that people are using marijuana who never used it before legalization.




eMacMan said:


> The comparison is not before and after, but between states that do have legalized medical marijuana and those that do not.
> 
> Interestingly the varieties that are most effective medically tend towards low levels of THCs and higher levels of CBDs. So street weed may not be a good substitute as those are bred for high (pun intended) THC content.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> The chart looks at drops in use before and after legalization in legalized states and compares that to non-legalized states. What the stats appear to be showing is that people are using marijuana who never used it before legalization.


The big jump is as a pain killer, hopefully for chronic pain sufferers. Since those users were already using opioid or cocaine derivatives, switching to a less problematic alternative can hardly be viewed as a minus. Especially if it proves more effective at a lower cost

The question of abuse with medical weed is an entirely different discussion.


----------



## Macfury

My point is that doctors are apparently prescribing marijuana to people who supposedly never used it before. I find that hard to believe. I've known people using the stuff for decades as a pain killer. I wonder why the study did not include the number of prescriptions for medical marijuana on the chart?

Personally, I don't care what people do with the stuff. No drug should be illegal to buy or ingest for those over 18. 



eMacMan said:


> The big jump is as a pain killer, hopefully for chronic pain sufferers. Since those users were already using opioids or cocaine derivatives, switching to a less problematic alternative can hardly be viewed as a minus.
> 
> The question of abuse with medical weed is an entirely different discussion.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> My point is that doctors are apparently prescribing marijuana to people who supposedly never used it before. I find that hard to believe. I've known people using the stuff for decades as a pain killer. I wonder why the study did not include the number of presciptions for medical marijuana on the chart?


In the US, Oxycodone costs up to $6/dose. Chronic pain sufferers often have trouble finding any work let alone well paying jobs, so it could be ability to pay is a big factor as to what is prescribed. I think the drop in painkiller use is a telling statistic. Weed prescription for painkilling probably less so, as I am sure it is easier to game the system for medical weed than for narcotics.

In Canada, if US stats translate directly to this side of the 49th, and even if the manufacturer gets only $1/dose, the hit to big pharma would be in the $100,000,000/annum range.


----------



## Macfury

The study only covers people on Medicaid or Medicare, so I don't think ability to pay is the biggest factor ,as seniors get free drugs in the US.



eMacMan said:


> In the US, Oxycodone costs up to $6/dose. Chronic pain sufferers often have trouble finding any work let alone well paying jobs, so it could be ability to pay is a big factor as to what is prescribed. I think the drop in painkiller use is a telling statistic. Weed prescription for painkilling probably less so, as I am sure it is easier to game the system for medical weed than for narcotics.
> 
> In Canada, if US stats translate directly to this side of the 49th, and even if the manufacturer gets only $1/dose, the hit to big pharma would be in the $100,000,000/annum range.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> The study only covers people on Medicaid or Medicare, so I don't think ability to pay is the biggest factor ,as seniors get free drugs in the US.


I can assure you that there is a huge donut hole in that so called free coverage. My mom dropped her prescribed heart meds because after a few months, for the rest of the year they were costing her $120/month from an income of about $800/month. As she put it the risk of heart attack caused by paying for the pills exceeded the risk of not taking them.


----------



## Macfury

One bizarre thing is that governments are coming down hard on vaping--which is non-addictive and a good way to get off tobacco, while wholeheartedly embracing recreational marijuana.


----------



## fjnmusic

Vaping is just another way of delivering the drug, which is usually nicotine, but you can put all kinds of other illegal stuff in there and it's hard to detect. The big companies are in the nicotine delivery business; they don't care if you vape it, patch it, smoke it, chew it, or inject it, as long as you buy it and use it. Lifelong customers is what they're looking for. Vaping is not really much healthier than smoking of you're still getting that nicotine fix. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Vaping is not really much healthier than smoking of you're still getting that nicotine fix.


Yes, it really is much healthier. Did you think that nicotine was the problem with smoking? Nicotine is not a bigger health problem than coffee. It's just that cigarettes are one of the unhealthiest delivery systems for it. Read up:

Is Nicotine All Bad? - Scientific American


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Yes, it really is much healthier. Did you think that nicotine was the problem with smoking? Nicotine is not a bigger health problem than coffee. It's just that cigarettes are one of the unhealthiest delivery systems for it. Read up:
> 
> 
> 
> Is Nicotine All Bad? - Scientific American



Thanks no. I just avoid nicotine because yes, it is addictive and enormously profitable. Did you think people were addicted to cigarettes because they like breathing in the smoke? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I never said that nicotine was not addictive. I said that it was not very harmful--roughly in the same category as energy drinks and coffee. Vaping frees people who crave nicotine from breathing in cancerous smoke.

Marijuana contains many of the carcinogens found in tobacco, so I find it odd that the government wants to crack down on vaping, while promoting recreational marijuana use.



fjnmusic said:


> Thanks no. I just avoid nicotine because yes, it is addictive and enormously profitable. Did you think people were addicted to cigarettes because they like breathing in the smoke?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I never said that nicotine was not addictive. I said that it was not very harmful--roughly in the same category as energy drinks and coffee. Vaping frees people who crave nicotine from breathing in cancerous smoke.
> 
> 
> 
> Marijuana contains many of the carcinogens found in tobacco, so I find it odd that the government wants to crack down on vaping, while promoting recreational marijuana use.



Well there is a TAX bonus to consider.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Both vaping and marijuana are taxed. But why legalize a smoke product for recreational use that the Canadian Cancer Society is warning will lead to lung cancer?



fjnmusic said:


> Well there is a TAX bonus to consider.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

uh . . .

‘Uh, certainly, I, uh’: Does Justin Trudeau really say ‘uh’ all the time? | National Post


----------



## eMacMan

A mess that started because a major project was awarded to a con-bud, then aggravated by the Truludites lacking the intelligence to send it back to the drawing board.
Phoenix pay system also breached federal workers' privacy - Politics - CBC News

I can only hope that Conservative MPs are included in the Phoenix system, and that their personal data may also have been breached. They might then develop some understanding of how Canadians on temporary loan from the IRS, feel about having their personal banking data lodged in an IRS database. A database otherwise reserved for drug dealers and money launderers. A data base that the IRS brags is available to just about anyone on the planet.

Lodging in that database is courtesy of the Harpoon allowing the IRS to write legislation over-riding; Existing tax treaties, Canadian banking and privacy laws, The Canadian Charter of Rights, and even the Canadian Constitution. All courtesy of the FATCA-IGA, which the Harpoon made effective on Canada Day 2014.

Yep I do hope those Conmen now begin to appreciate how it feels to be FATCA'd


----------



## SINC

Proof positive JT is an idiot?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Here comes carbon pricing



> Climate Change Minister Catherine McKenna said Friday the Trudeau government will present its plan for a uniform, national carbon price this fall, as part of a larger package of climate change initiatives.
> 
> “What we want to see is uniformity in terms of a national price,” McKenna said in an interview with Danielle Bochove of Bloomberg TV Canada. “We need a national price on carbon, so that’s what we are going to have ... in the fall.”
> 
> *Translation? Hold on to your wallets.*


M'bold.

I'd could get along with a uniform price of $0.00


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Kelly McParland: Trudeau’s first broken promise to First Nations people is a whopper, but won’t be the last



> It would be nice to think that once the federal Liberals won the election last October, they started going through the files they’d inherited, came across one marked “United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples” and thought, “Oh gee, we may not be able to keep this promise after all.”
> 
> Nice, but not likely. Justin Trudeau and his troops were well aware it would be next to impossible to adopt the UN declaration wholesale, as they’d pledged time and again. Any number of experts said so. It was in all the papers. The previous government explained, in quite clear language, that there were serious legal and constitutional concerns making it impracticable. OK, as far as the Liberals were concerned everything the Tories said was a lie, but the government’s explanation was backed up by learned scholars, legal authorities, and even some Liberals not blinded by the immediate need to win votes.


More:



> Abandoning the UN declaration is the Liberals’ first broken promise to Canada’s aboriginals, but it’s a whopper. It will have to be followed by others.


----------



## FeXL

Wynneing!!!

Premier Wynne’s debt monster



> A day after Premier Kathleen Wynne boasted Ontario’s economy is growing faster than any country in the G-7, Financial Accountability Officer Stephen LeClair gave us the bad news.
> 
> He said Ontario, the world’s most indebted sub-sovereign borrower, will increase its current total debt of $300 billion by a staggering $50 billion in just the next four years.
> 
> *By 2020-21, the Liberals will have recklessly hiked Ontario’s debt 152% from the $138.8 billion they inherited in 2003.*
> 
> Wynne’s boast she will balance the budget in 2017-18 — achieved through such things as the fire sale of 60% of Hydro One — is a mirage, because the Liberals will plunge us back into annual deficits starting in 2018-19.
> 
> *Ontario’s debt is the highest among Canada’s provinces in absolute terms. We also have the highest debt burden among the major provinces — $2.40 of debt for every $1 of provincial revenues.*


Don't worry, MF. Alberta's right behind...


----------



## Macfury

Carbon pricing=tax for idiots



FeXL said:


> Here comes carbon pricing
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> I'd could get along with a uniform price of $0.00


----------



## CubaMark

Canadian think tank under fire for accepting donations from arms maker - The Globe and Mail


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Canadian think tank under fire for accepting donations from arms maker - The Globe and Mail


Not sure anyone would find that surprising. Most of us recognize that the purpose of any think tank is to promote the agenda of it's benefactors.


----------



## eMacMan

I have to wonder who it was that decreed disobeying a police order to be a capital offense, sentence to be carried out on the spot with participation of Judge and/or Jury expressly prohibited.

Sadly the individuals responsible will be unlikely to receive even a slap on the wrist. Whether this is a result of 'roid rage, and/or a training regime originally designed by the CIA for ISIS recruits is anybodies guess.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/immigrant-dies-hospital-following-police-arrest-canada-224022482.html



> OTTAWA (Reuters) - A Somali immigrant to Canada died after being hospitalized in critical condition following his arrest by Canadian police, Ontario's police watchdog said on its Twitter account on Monday.
> 
> Media reports cited witnesses saying the man was beaten by a number of police officers as he tried to run into an apartment building during the incident on Sunday.
> Ontario's Special Investigations Unit (SIU) launched an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the arrest of the man in an Ottawa neighborhood.
> 
> "SIU can confirm the 37-yr-old man in Hilda St incident in Ottawa has now died," the agency posted on Twitter.
> 
> The man was identified by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) news channel as Abdirahman Abdi, a Somali immigrant.
> 
> The unit said on Sunday that Ottawa police officers had been called in the morning with reports of a man causing a disturbance. Shortly after officers responded there was a confrontation during which the man "suffered medical distress". He was taken to hospital in critical condition.
> 
> Video posted on the National Post newspaper's website appears to show a man in a bloodied shirt lying face down on the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back and his pants pulled down before paramedics arrived and began administering CPR. Neighbors can be heard yelling at the police in the background.
> ....


----------



## CubaMark

*EDIT: * Read too quickly, interpreted incorrectly, responded inappropriately.

Thus, _deleted_.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *EDIT: * Read too quickly, interpreted incorrectly, responded inappropriately.
> 
> Thus, _deleted_.


Good catch!


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Good catch!


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


>


It is an attempt at humour. It is not often one 'catches' oneself doing something you may regret and removing it before it can be read.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> It is an attempt at humour. It is not often one 'catches' oneself doing something you may regret and removing it before it can be read.


Oh, I see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Trump Claims America Should Never Have Given Canada Its Independence | BSJ

Well, when we become the 51st state of the US at least some of us already know how to spell "labor".


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Trump Claims America Should Never Have Given Canada Its Independence | BSJ
> 
> Well, when we become the 51st state of the US at least some of us already know how to spell "labor".


The man is an idiot!!!


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> The man is an idiot!!!


Call him what you want, Steve, but he shall be America's next president. He shall demonstrate to PM Trudeau how to make a country great and the US shall once again become a "shining city on top of the hill". We shall see. Paix, mon ami


----------



## SINC

No surprise here.

Live poll: As it stands right now, would you vote Liberal in 2019? -


----------



## Macfury

PM Trudeau announces dreadful new Supreme Court justices selection process | CTV News

Let's get the legal community to nominate them--that solves everything. Ugh!


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Proof positive JT is an idiot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Late to seeing this but...:clap: right on. He is an idiot and an embarrassment to this country.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> The man is an idiot!!!


Psssst....

Like most of the "can you believe he said that" news about Trump, that entire article is fake.

Unfortunately, what most people think they know about Trump comes from satire sites like Burrard and Huffington Post.


----------



## screature

heavyall said:


> Psssst....
> 
> Like most of the "can you believe he said that" news about Trump, that entire article is fake.
> 
> Unfortunately, what most people think they know about Trump comes from satire sites like Burrard and Huffington Post.


ALL "news" is manipulated in one manner or another. If Trump is your man so be it but you don't even get to vote so you have nothing to gain or lose by holding the position that you have. When it comes to JT Canadians do have something to lose, even though the election is still a few years away. So Psssst.... all you want the post about JT but at least it was relevant to the Canadian Political thread unlike yours.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> PM Trudeau announces dreadful new Supreme Court justices selection process | CTV News
> 
> Let's get the legal community to nominate them--that solves everything. Ugh!


Like everything with JT and the LIBS it is is all smoke mirrors. Looking like you are doing something different for show but in practicality it amounts to the same thing as to what came before.

Because it is 2015! Actually 2016 now... I wonder how long it will take for them to drop that tag line.


----------



## CubaMark

*Hunter Tootoo, Nunavut MP, Quit Liberal Caucus After 'Inappropriate Relationship'*









Nunavut MP Hunter Tootoo, who cited an alcohol problem for leaving the Liberal caucus and cabinet earlier this year, apologized Wednesday for what he called a "consensual but inappropriate" relationship with an unidentified person.

Tootoo, who declared his return to politics late last month after a two-month hiatus to seek treatment for addiction, has been at the centre of persistent rumours that he had been involved with a staff member.

"I let my judgment be clouded and I also let alcohol take over my life," Tootoo said, reading from a portfolio on his lap.

"I am ashamed and I apologize to all involved, especially the people of Nunavut. I am deeply sorry."

Tootoo said he informed Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on May 31 of the relationship, then promptly quit the party and checked himself into rehab.

A statement from the Prime Minister's Office corroborated Tootoo's version of events, noting that the MP "took full and sole responsibility for his inappropriate workplace conduct."​
(HuffPo)


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> ALL "news" is manipulated in one manner or another. If Trump is your man so be it but you don't even get to vote so you have nothing to gain or lose by holding the position that you have. When it comes to JT Canadians do have something to lose, even though the election is still a few years away.


It's got nothing to do with supporting anyone -- the site that article was linked from is entirely fake. The name "BS Journal" should have been a clue. It's a less funny version of the Onion. Not news at all, just satire. Satire sites are where most of the truly awful things that people think they know about Trump are coming from. They draw so much ad traffic that even mainstream sites are starting to link to them.



> So Psssst.... all you want the post about JT but at least it was relevant to the Canadian Political thread unlike yours.


 I didn't post the article, I only responded to it, but you might have noticed that the story actually IS about Canada. And Trump. It doesn't mention Trudeau though.


----------



## Dr.G.

Donald Trump suggests 'Second Amendment people' can stop Hillary Clinton - World - CBC News

Why should Canadians be afraid? They will have a wall to protect them from Canadians streaming across the border "yearning to breathe free".


----------



## FeXL

Ottawa police background investigator resigns, says Somali-Canadian hired for 'political reasons'



> On the same day Abdirahman Abdi was pronounced dead, Ottawa police moved to hire a Somali-Canadian man who had failed a background check, prompting the civilian investigator in charge of vetting officers to resign, Postmedia has learned.


More:



> The investigator’s report found that the applicant had a handful of speeding infractions, four licence suspensions and had attempted to get a new licence while his was suspended. Benson found 16 convictions under the Highway Traffic Act.
> 
> Benson also raised red flags regarding a 2013 incident where the applicant falsely phoned police, according to the report. Police found he had a history of negative behaviour when pulled over by police and that he had several different dates of birth on file.
> 
> Benson also found inconsistencies in the application. The applicant had said he was selected by the Somali government for a program, but the report found that a friend had actually been selected and that the friend asked the applicant to go in his place instead.


Further:



> Benson’s letter of resignation says: *“I have lost faith in the integrity of the constable selection process .”
> 
> “I cannot continue in good conscience and I refuse to compromise my own work ethic. I must stand by my own principles, ethics, and integrity.”*


M'bold.

Good for her. It'll change nothing but good for her for holding steadfast to her principles. That more people would be as courageous...

Related:

Investigator quits over cop hire, Bordeleau defends decision


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada’s economy sheds 31,200 jobs, pushing jobless rate to 6.9 per cent



> OTTAWA — Canada’s employment market caved in July, unexpectedly losing tens of thousands of jobs — most on them full-time positions, with Ontario taking the brunt of the declines — and pushing the jobless rate higher.
> 
> Most forecasters had expected job growth to resume last month after a small loss in June, which would have continued the recent sea-saw labour pattern. But data from Statistics Canada on Friday showed a net loss of 31,200 workers — enough to push the unemployment rate to 6.9 per cent, up from 6.8 per cent the previous month.
> The Canadian dollar lost 0.85 US cents to 75.94 after the data was released.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Canada’s economy sheds 31,200 jobs, pushing jobless rate to 6.9 per cent


Yeah, but its economic stagnation for the RIGHT REASON!


----------



## eMacMan

Some of you may recall my earlier postings about the treasonous FATCA - IGA the Harpoon agreed to, redefining 1,000,000 Canadian Citizens, as IRS slaves on temporary loan to Canada.

While the entire slate of Harpoon talking points was total BS, one point in particular was even more absurd than the rest.

That is reciprocity. The reciprocity clause of the FATCA IGA was not going to be honored and even someone as dimwitted as the Harpoon should have known it. First of all the Harpoon was negotiating with the US Treasury Department aka the IRS. An entity with less than zero authority to negotiate such a treaty. 

Most Canadian banks have a significant US presence which means they were very vulnerable to IRS threats. It also means they could legally have joined forces and bought enough Congressmen and Senators to quash FATCA entirely. Instead they lobbied the Harpoon to sign the FATCA - IGA, creating expenses for themselves 1000s of times greater than a successful US lobbying effort. Their US cousins are not nearly that stupid. They know the expense of reporting millions of accounts to 100s of foreign governments could directly threaten the size of their executive bonuses. The did lobby and quite successfully. There will be no reciprocity.

Jim Jatras is a conservative Washington journalist, you can see his take on this here:
The Isaac Brock Society | Now That It's Clear the U.S. Will Not â€˜Reciprocate' on FATCA, Will â€˜Partner' Countries Wise Up?


> As I have warned for several years now (for example, see with respect to Europe, Canada, and Cayman), “partner” governments signing legally defective “Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act” (FATCA) “intergovernmental agreements” (IGAs) under “promises” from the U.S. Treasury Department that the U.S. would provide reciprocal information from domestic American institutions was at best a long shot, more likely just a deception. Almost three years ago, in July 2013, Florida Congressman Bill Posey made it clear requests for legislative authority to provide “reciprocity” were dead on arrival.
> 
> Yet foreign governments have continued to deceive themselves – or their publics, or both – that American participation in a global GATCA, or intergovernmental “automatic exchange of information” (AEOI), “disclosure of corporate beneficial ownership,” and a “common reporting standards” (CRS) regime, probably under OECD auspices, were just around the corner . . .
> Well, it isn’t. Period. Full stop.
> 
> With Senators Rand Paul’s and Mike Lee’s stalwart block of tax treaty provisions as backdoor mechanisms for securing the Obama Administration’s sought-for authority, the matter is deader than ever here in Washington. (See “Rand Paul’s Stand against Tax Treaties Is More Important than You Think,” Accounting Today, May 13, 2016; and “Why Is the Senate GOP Leadership Helping Obama Pass Job-Killing Treaties?” Conservative Review, June 16, 2016.)
> 
> Belatedly, some elements abroad are waking up to the fact they’ve been had. They have only themselves to blame, really. Not only were they warned by this writer time and again, they at least should have had the common sense (and an elementary understanding of our non-parliamentary Constitutional system) to know that Treasury’s promises had no legal authority and were worthless. ……


----------



## FeXL

Further on Ontariowe...

Ontario now mirroring Quebec's economy, report says



> *The East is underwater and taking Canada down with it.*
> 
> Ontario's economic picture is becoming more like Quebec in all the wrong ways, says a new study from the Montreal Economic Institute. Now it's even dragging down national averages.
> 
> It was bad enough when Canada's most populous province started receiving equalization payments in 2009. But now it's gotten worse. It used to be that economically troubled Quebec was urged to be more like Ontario. It was good advice back then. And in many respects they took it ... and went in the wrong direction.


M'bold.

Free the East!!!


----------



## FeXL

Further on electricity boondoggles.

Ontario electricity has never been cheaper, but bills have never been higher



> You may be surprised to learn that electricity is now cheaper to generate in Ontario than it has been for decades. The wholesale price, called the Hourly Ontario Electricity Price or HOEP, used to bounce around between five and eight cents per kilowatt hour (kWh), but over the last decade, thanks in large part to the shale gas revolution, it has trended down to below three cents, and on a typical day is now as low as two cents per kWh. Good news, right?
> 
> It would be, except that this is Ontario. A hidden tax on Ontario’s electricity has pushed the actual purchase price in the opposite direction, to the highest it’s ever been. The tax, called the Global Adjustment (GA), is levied on electricity purchases to cover a massive provincial slush fund for green energy, conservation programs, nuclear plant repairs and other central planning boondoggles. As these spending commitments soar, so does the GA.


Don't worry, me boyos. Albertistan is right behind...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

That evil, controlling Stephen Har..._wait a minute!_

Climate scientists evaporating under Trudeau, not Harper



> *The Justin Trudeau government is on pace this year to preside over the biggest-ever recorded cut to the number of federal environment scientists.*
> 
> Statistics Canada earlier this year forecast the number of scientific and technological personnel at Environment and Climate Change Canada would be reduced this fiscal year by nearly 11% -- or 406 jobs -- compared to 2015-2016. StatsCan started counting federal scientists in 2000.


M'bold.

Sunny days, my friends...


----------



## MacGuiver2.0

FeXL said:


> That evil, controlling Stephen Har..._wait a minute!_
> 
> Climate scientists evaporating under Trudeau, not Harper
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Sunny days, my friends...


If this is true then kudos to the Trudeau government. Mind you they'll more than make up for the $$ they save on the money pit that is climate change sending it overseas or crippling industry and consumers.


----------



## FeXL

MacGuiver2.0 said:


> If this is true then kudos to the Trudeau government.


Oh, don't get me wrong, any time there are "climate" scientists fired, it's a good thing. However, where is the hue & cry from the left because of federal scientists getting fired, a la Harper?


----------



## FeXL

Hate when the facts don't follow the narrative...

Robyn Urback: A proper inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women cannot shy away from uncomfortable truths



> At the same time, however, commissioners overseeing the inquiry cannot cast aside discoveries that may run contrary to the prevailing dogma on aboriginal issues, as the minister of indigenous and northern affairs did last November when she rejected the notion that aboriginal men shoulder part of the blame for violence against aboriginal women, despite an RCMP report showing that most First Nations female homicide victims — like most all other female homicide victims — are killed by men they know.
> 
> There are other inconvenient details that a proper inquiry should likewise consider: that despite rhetoric about police indifference to aboriginal victims, the solve rate for homicides against aboriginal women is roughly equal to that of homicides of non-aboriginal women; that aboriginal men and boys actually go missing and are murdered at a far greater rate (about three times more, to be specific) than aboriginal women, though the launch on Wednesday failed to include any mention of the plight of male victims and their families. Indeed, *a proper inquiry cannot merely be an exercise in reiterating the acceptable maxims on aboriginal affairs, but rather, must take a critical, empirical look at the issues plaguing Canada’s indigenous communities*, with the goal of enacting measurable actions, for which both sides must be on board.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

This may be the most legit thing she will ever do, after her party highlights its racism...

Green Party leader Elizabeth May to step down



> It’s a pretty unexpected situation, a fact that May accepted as well. Her party expressed support for an extremely controversial resolution which called for sanctions against Israel. Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) were the three measures against Israel that the Green Party called for. And May had openly campaigned to oppose all three at the Green Party’s convention in Ottawa, last week. After the party went against her position, it raises several questions about her legitimacy as a leader.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> This may be the most legit thing she will ever do, after her party highlights its racism...
> 
> Green Party leader Elizabeth May to step down


Interesting that opposing modern day concentration camps somehow get (mis)interpreted as racism. I guess as long as the victims aren't Jewish it's considered AOK. 

If the Green Party stand is out of line, it won't get any traction. OTOH it required this sort of action to halt similar oppression by South Africa.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> This may be the most legit thing she will ever do, after her party highlights its racism...
> 
> Green Party leader Elizabeth May to step down


.


----------



## SINC

Earlier this week the Canadian Taxpayers Federation’s lawyers received notice from the Supreme Court of Canada that our application to intervene in a historic court case had been rejected. See notice here:

http://www.taxpayer.com/media/LF_Su...ail&utm_term=0_59605796e2-3fd30dd980-33793145

We always knew there was a chance our application would be rejected, but what’s remarkable is that the Court approved 12 different government employee unions to intervene on the other side. See story here:

Canadian Taxpayers Federation | The Canadian Taxpayers Federation is a citizen's advocacy group dedicated to lower taxes, less waste & accountable government.

Let’s back up. There’s a long-standing legal battle between the BC government and the BC teachers’ union (a more detailed history can be found at the link below). It’s finally made its way to the Supreme Court of Canada and any decision they make will impact taxpayers from coast to coast.

Should unions have the right to dictate public policy? | National Post

In a nutshell, the union is trying to constitutionalize collective agreements, such that nothing granted by a government to a union could ever be altered without the union’s permission. If the union wins, it will mean that union-friendly politicians, on their political deathbed, could sign long-term contracts with their favourite government employees’ union, promising massive wage increases, job protection, or gold-plated pension payments – you name it – and no future government could do anything about it.

Sounds crazy? Manitoba’s NDP signed a five-year deal with their union in January, promising that nobody could get fired in those five years! At the time the NDP were only months away from an election and in third place in the polls – 20 points behind the now governing PC Party. And if the BC teachers’ union wins at the Supreme Court, the new Manitoba government won’t be able touch that crazy deal no matter what happens or how high Manitoba’s billion-dollar deficit gets. see story here:

MGEU members promised no layoffs for five years in new contract offer - Winnipeg | Globalnews.ca

This case is too important to let the unions run roughshod over the Supreme Court. Politicians must have the power to legislate changes to union agreements if the voters demand it.

Since the only citizens’ group to apply for intervenor status was rejected (the CTF), we’re now going to have to rely on the attorney generals from across the country to stand up for taxpayers. Seven of them have gained automatic intervenor status.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, they used to talk about the Canadianisation of Europe.....now I guess we can talk about the Americanisation of the Supreme Court of Canada!


----------



## CubaMark

*Whatever happened to those sensible Conservatives of yesteryear?*

*The case against privatizing Hydro One: McQuaig*

...the Liberal government of Kathleen Wynne is hoping Ontarians have long since abandoned the passion that fuelled that popular movement and led the Conservative government of James Whitney in 1905 to create Ontario Hydro, the world’s first publicly owned utility.

But polls suggest much of that passion remains. Internal polling done for the Wynne government — released under Access to Information — found that 73 per cent of Ontarians oppose the government’s plans to privatize Hydro One, the key transmission arm of the original public utility.

It’s striking that Ontarians still favour public ownership, given that the dominant ideology of our times has vilified government and the public sector, while celebrating the alleged superiority of the private sector.

* * *​
Ontario Energy Minister Bob Chiarelli recently insisted that, in selling shares to private investors, the government is seeking “to broaden the ownership of Hydro One.”

Really? Hydro One is already owned by all the people of Ontario. By selling off 60 per cent of it, the government is putting the majority of this vital utility into private hands, diluting our collective ownership.

* * *​
profits, not the public interest, will rule in the new corporate culture. That culture is already in full-swing at Hydro One, with the new CEO earning triple what his predecessor made.

In privatizing, a government surrenders important levers over public policy, and it’s hard to imagine an area where surrendering control is riskier than energy.

While the sentiment may be out of sync with our times, it’s hard not to be inspired by the 1905 words of then-Premier Whitney, as he pledged to introduce public power:

_“I say on behalf of the Government, that the water power all over the country should not in the future be made the sport and prey of capitalists and shall not be treated as anything else but a valuable asset of the people of Ontario.”​_​(Toronto Star)​


----------



## Macfury

Since the policy of the government is now to make electricity as expensive as possible, privatizing it could do no worse.


----------



## heavyall

Utilities that make money for the government are a good thing if that income is used to lower taxes. If it's mismanaged to the point of COSTING money, you really do have to offload it.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> Utilities that make money for the government are a good thing if that income is used to lower taxes. If it's mismanaged to the point of COSTING money, you really do have to offload it.


Seriously, what kind of business model punishes you by raising rates when you use more of what they sell?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Seriously, what kind of business model punishes you by raising rates when you use more of what they sell?



Telcos.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

You have a plan that charges you a higher rate per MB the more you use? 



fjnmusic said:


> Telcos.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> You have a plan that charges you a higher rate per MB the more you use?



Yup. The 10 GB family plan is more expensive than the 6 GB plan on Rogers. Does yours work differently?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic

Those good old fiscally conservative MP's/wanna-be MLA's. 



> Jason Kenney should give up his seat as MP
> 
> Published on: August 16, 2016 | Last Updated: August 16, 2016 4:12 PM EDT
> 
> There are not many jobs where one can get paid full-time to look for other work, but Jason Kenney, who’s busily running for the leadership of Alberta’s fractured Progressive Conservative party, has got one: being a member of Parliament.
> 
> The federal representative for Calgary Midnapore is spending his time in Alberta, like other Alberta MPs, but he’s not there for the summer round of barbecues and dealing with constituent problems. Instead, Kenney is pursuing his own interests, working feverishly to raise a large war chest to give him an edge when the PC leadership campaign officially starts in October.
> 
> Kenney has been repeatedly criticized for taking an MP’s salary without doing the work ever since he announced his leadership bid in early July. He has never given a satisfactory answer as to why it’s the right thing to do.


http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-jason-kenney-should-give-up-his-seat-as-mp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Yup. The 10 GB family plan is more expensive than the 6 GB plan on Rogers. Does yours work differently?


So how much do you pay per GB for the 6 GB plan and how much per GB for the 10 GB plan?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> So how much do you pay per GB for the 6 GB plan and how much per GB for the 10 GB plan?



Never worked it out. But I think the extra 4GB are about $20 more per month or so. It's deceptive, because you never get credit for the gigabytes you don't use, and the start/stop dates per month are kind of arbitrary. It's the same for home internet: you get penalized if you use more of their product as well (over a set amount). This is a problem as streaming becomes more the standard and files become bigger (high def movies for example). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macfury

The more GB you buy outright, the cheaper it is--cellular or Internet.


----------



## SINC

Good grief, the Liberals themselves are certifiable.

Trudeau's answer to terrorists: Talk them through their feelings | Canada | News

Trudeau Announces  $200 Million Funding to rebuild Iraq’s Economy


----------



## FeXL

A little perspective...

Gary Lamphier: How much money has flowed out of Alberta to Ottawa? A lot



> So just how much money has flowed out of Alberta to Ottawa? A lot. Between 2000 and 2014, on a net basis, Alberta’s individual and corporate taxpayers shipped an estimated $200 billion-plus to the federal government. That’s what left the province, less what the feds reinvested here.
> 
> To put that lofty figure in perspective, it’s nearly 12 times the value of the $17.4 billion Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund. *No other province — including Ontario, with three times Alberta’s population — even comes close to matching this province’s contribution to the federation.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Whither the Hairdo?

Don't get me wrong, if he is safely ensconsed in some palatial BC paradise for 21 days that means he's not screwing something else up in my life. However...

Trudeau's leadership MIA during terror scare



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau didn’t even emerge from his extended vacation to assure Canadians he was monitoring the situation, let alone that the necessary resources were being devoted to maintaining public safety and order.
> 
> His itinerary has listed each day for the last three weeks as “personal,” which hasn’t changed in the days since.
> 
> Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale issued a statement Wednesday night, saying that he had spoken to the Trudeau about the situation. Goodale also addressed media the following day, after the RCMP’s press conference on the Strathroy situation.
> 
> But it took Trudeau himself more than 25 hours from the time of the explosion to tweet his gratitude to the RCMP “for their work in Strathroy yesterday,” without issuing any statement regarding cooperation with the FBI, the threat of terrorism and homegrown radicalization, or anything other than Canada’s Olympic successes, for that matter.
> 
> *Apparently his vacation came first.*


M'bold.

Maybe he couldn't get cell service in his remote hut in BC...


----------



## FeXL

Interesting article on a survey of Canadians about Guaranteed Incomes.

Canadians think guaranteed income good, but too expensive and it makes people lazy: survey



> Canadians may support a guaranteed minimum income in principle, but they don’t want to pay for it and they suspect it may turn people into shiftless louts, according to a new survey by the Angus Reid Institute.
> 
> As many as 67 per cent of respondents backed a guaranteed income set at $30,000, *provided that the payment would “replace most or all other forms of government assistance.”*
> 
> However, nearly as many *(66 per cent) said they would not be willing to pay more taxes to support such a program*, and 59 per cent said it would be too expensive to implement.
> 
> A further 63 per cent said it would “discourage people from working.” Among Conservative voters, this sentiment jumped to 74 per cent of respondents. But even in the NDP camp respondents were split 50-50.


M'bold.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Read the ruling and you'll see why Levant will win an appeal.



So did he win the appeal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, how's that parliamentary reform "consultation" process coming along?

Opinion: 'Consultation' on parliamentary electoral reform is a farce



> Eventually, the audience was invited to ask questions. We were told we needed to limit our comments to two minutes. In other words, no referendum because we are going to consult, which we’ll do the night after the August long weekend, and the issue is too complex for you bozos to understand, but tell us everything you think about it in two minutes. Now, smile, you’ve been consulted!


Figgers...


----------



## FeXL

MF?

Is it really starting to sink in?

Ontario Premier Wynne’s ‘chickens have finally come home to roost’ as personal popularity hits new low: poll



> Just 16 per cent of Ontarians approve of Wynne’s job performance, according to a new Forum research poll. Lorne Bozinoff, the firm’s president, said in a statement: “It appears Premier Wynne’s chickens have finally come home to roost, and voters have started to notice the controversies surrounding her government.”


----------



## Macfury

I think Toronto would return her in a heartbeat.



FeXL said:


> MF?
> 
> Is it really starting to sink in?
> 
> Ontario Premier Wynne’s ‘chickens have finally come home to roost’ as personal popularity hits new low: poll


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

C'mon, Justin. Just give them a hug...

Jihadists aren’t misunderstood punks



> For decades, anyone with a dose of common sense has been laughing at the idea that criminals are just misunderstood victims in need of a good cry. So it’s a touch tragi-comic to watch the Liberals pretend “counter-radicalization” will be a successful tool in combating Islamist extremism.


More:



> On Wednesday, the minister said the feds are considering making counselling mandatory for anyone placed under a terror-related peace bond. Goodale told media it’s time we “up our game in terms of recognizing and understanding the process of radicalization.” So far they’ve identified several candidates to head up a new creation called the Office of the Community Outreach and Counter-radicalization Co-ordinator.


Your tax $ at work.


----------



## Dr.G.

About 1,500 Americans in river party wash up in Canada - CNN.com

Bienvenue au Canada


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> About 1,500 Americans in river party wash up in Canada - CNN.com
> 
> Bienvenue au Canada


I dread to think what might have happened if 1500 Canadians had washed onto American shores with no passport.


----------



## FeXL

Stumping notwithstanding, interesting read on inter-provincial trade in Canada.

Free Trade in Canada



> Last April, New Brunswick provincial court Judge Ronald LeBlanc finally dismissed a charge against Gerard Comeau. Mr. Comeau had been fined four years ago for bringing back 14 cases of beer and three bottles of alcohol from Quebec, which was a violation of New Brunswick’s Liquor Control Act.
> 
> How can this happen? This single event is proof that there is something utterly wrong in how our federation works. It negates the very notion of living in one united country.


----------



## FeXL

Translation: "I love the money".

Elizabeth May to stay on as Green leader after party rift over Israel



> Elizabeth May, Canada’s first Green MP, says she has decided to stay on as leader of the federal party after musing for weeks that she might leave the post she has held for a decade.
> 
> Ms. May first raised the prospect of stepping down after party members voted earlier this month in favour of a resolution supporting sanctions against Israel. Ms. May openly opposed the boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) resolution at the party’s biennial convention, but the motion passed.


Wouldn't actually expect her to stand up for herself now, would we...


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I dread to think what might have happened if 1500 Canadians had washed onto American shores with no passport.


XX)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canadians now spend more on taxes than on food, clothing and shelter combined, study finds



> The Fraser Institute calculates that the average Canadian family paid $34,154 in taxes of all sort last year, including “hidden” business taxes that are passed along in the price of goods and services purchased.
> 
> The study’s authors conclude that visible and hidden taxes would have been equal to 42.4 per cent of the cash income for an average Canadian family in 2015, estimated at $80,593.
> 
> By comparison, the study estimates the average Canadian family spent $30,293 on housing, food and clothing last year — about 37.6 per cent of the family’s total cash income.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Ontariowe.

Kelly McParland: Wynne Liberals lead Ontario down Michigan’s path to pain



> A more compelling basis for gloom lies in the relative state of mind of the two governments. Michigan knew it was in a mess and had to do something about it. When Governor Rick Snyder took office in 2011 he recognized that drastic measures were required, and set out to introduce them. Ontario’s Liberals, on the other hand, have been in office since 2003 and think they’re doing a swell job. Sure the debt has more than doubled, the province is increasingly dependent on federal transfers to keep its head above water, electricity bills have become a universal source of complaint and manufacturers have fled the province over the regulatory and cost burden, but look at all those windmills we’ve built!


----------



## FeXL

Unbelievable. Thought I was reading a headline from _The Onion_...

Canada's Mounties allow women in uniform to wear hijabs



> The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, known as the Mounties, is to allow women in uniform to wear hijabs.
> 
> Government spokesman Scott Bardsley said the move was to reflect the diversity in Canada's communities and to attract more female Muslim officers.


----------



## SINC

Yep, the slow rotting of our society continues by bending to those who refuse to conform to OUR traditions, not theirs.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Unbelievable. Thought I was reading a headline from _The Onion_...
> 
> Canada's Mounties allow women in uniform to wear hijabs


*That's great!*

The Mounties are only *15 years behind* British police....

*Met lets Muslim policewomen don headscarves*

And from the BBC article you linked:

_Three types of hijabs were tested before one was selected as suitable for police work, local media reported.

According to the Montreal newspaper La Presse, an internal memo said the hijab could be removed quickly and easily if needed, and did not encumber officers.

The policy was introduced quietly earlier this year, though it was not prompted by any requests from officers, according to the AFP agency.

Some 30 officers had asked for a relaxing of the rules for religious or cultural reasons over the past two years, La Presse reported.

In most cases, the requests were from male officers wanting to grow beards. Sikh officers have been allowed to wear turbans since 1990._​


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Yep, the slow rotting of our society continues by bending to those who refuse to conform to OUR traditions, not theirs.


All Canadians should be able to see themselves represented in the institutions that surround them. This is why we have an official policy of national bilingualism, so Quebecois can expect their government to provide services in their native tongue; the accommodation of uniform styles to accommodate Sikhs and Muslims is simply another manifestation of this. 

It's why so much effort has been put into encouraging (and requiring the hiring of) members of minority ethnic groups to 'change the face' of municipal police forces. How would you, as a white female, react to an all-male, black police force that had the authority and means to pull you over; arrest you; search you; kill you (justifiably, of course)?

Is it part of the Conservative nature to be inherently unable (or resistant) to putting oneself in the shoes of the 'other', and consider what the lives of non-white peoples interacting with institutions and security forces might be like? It seems that some of you are genetically programmed to eschew any sense of empathy....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> All Canadians should be able to see themselves represented in the institutions that surround them.


No.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> No.


Why not?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Why not?


There is no reason to expect it. The public service should be hired according to ability, not as some sort of tool to satisfy narcissists.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> There is no reason to expect it. The public service should be hired according to ability, not as some sort of tool to satisfy narcissists.


I agree that the Public Service should be hired according to ability. But historically, even (over!) qualified members of ethnic or religious minorities have been expressly or subtly barred from being hired, which was the basis for quotas and preferential hiring programmes.

Whether you agree with the policy isn't the issue, unless you have a brainstorm as to how to address prejudicial barriers to employment.


----------



## FeXL

It's not prejudicial. It's the uniform. Don't like how it looks? Don't apply for the job. 

If I'm walking down the street & you don't like what I'm wearing, you think I'm going to change for you? Not an f'ing chance. Turn the other direction...



CubaMark said:


> ...unless you have a brainstorm as to how to address prejudicial barriers to employment.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> It's not prejudicial. It's the uniform. Don't like how it looks? Don't apply for the job.


Must be nice to live your life as a middle-class, white male. "Discrimination" is just something _those people_ complain about, it seems.


----------



## SINC

'Cause its 2016!

3 bureaucrats spent $12Gs dining in Paris, and we picked up the bill | Canada |


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> 'Cause its 2016!
> 
> 3 bureaucrats spent $12Gs dining in Paris, and we picked up the bill | Canada |


So if they were that concerned about carbon emissions why send more than half a dozen to Paris. 155 seems beyond excessive. I am sure that modern technology would have given everyone ample opportunity to participate with no need for their physical presence.


----------



## FeXL

Only a Prog could turn a post about oppressive cultural practices into an argument about white privilege...



CubaMark said:


> Must be nice to live your life as a middle-class, white male. "Discrimination" is just something _those people_ complain about, it seems.


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Must be nice to live your life as a middle-class, white male. "Discrimination" is just something _those people_ complain about, it seems.


It's got nothing whatsoever to do with skin colour, social class, or income level.


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> Only a Prog could turn a post about oppressive cultural practices into an argument about white privilege...


It's standard lefty M.O. Dismiss a real problem by pointing to another one that they just made up.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> It's standard lefty M.O. Dismiss a real problem by pointing to another one that they just made up.


Yep, the Alberta NDP have been using this ploy almost daily.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on electoral reform.

@Kady: Monsef's road to electoral reform may not be able to bypass referendum



> Heads up, average (or otherwise) Canadian voter: Have you spent your summer stubbornly tuning out earnest entreaties from your local MP and/or other aggressively civic-minded democratic do-gooders to spend an evening poking through the innards of the federal electoral system in search of a fairer, more representative alternative?
> 
> More specifically, have you been holding out for the opportunity to share your views on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s pledge to scrap First Past The Post the old-fashioned way: by marking an X in the appropriate box on a ballot?
> 
> If so, you can take tentative comfort in the fact that, with very few exceptions, virtually every expert witness to testify before the House committee charged with studying the issue seems to agree — albeit reluctantly, in some cases, and only when pressed, with dramatically varying degrees of enthusiasm — that any attempt to change the vote-counting formula without widespread public support would be spectacularly ill-advised and politically risky, although almost certainly not actively unconstitutional.


Of all the things I want to blow up in PM Pompadour's face, this BS ranks among the highest...


----------



## FeXL

More Liberal politicans at work...

Fraud case of ex Quebec deputy premier Nathalie Normandeau to resume today



> Former Quebec deputy premier Nathalie Normandeau is expected to appear in court today for the first time since fraud charges were brought against her earlier this year.
> 
> Normandeau is charged with conspiracy, corruption, breach of trust and fraud in an alleged scheme in which police say that political financing and gifts were exchanged for lucrative government contracts between 2000 and 2012.


Ya s'pose it was worth more than $90,000?


----------



## FeXL

Another open letter to Wynne from Kevin O'Leary.

Open letter to Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne, Part 2



> Hi Premier Wynne,
> 
> I’m worried.
> 
> I asked you to keep me informed about the $1.9 billion you are extracting out of the Ontario economy in new carbon taxes. I was excited when you promised lots of new jobs and reductions in carbon emissions. Then I saw the July jobs report. Wow, 36,100 Ontario jobs lost in a single month, the worst decline since the recession, and you still haven’t told me any good news about carbon emission reductions. I guess your new plan is not working.
> 
> *Maybe it would have been better to leave that $1.9 billion in the hands of the Ontario businesses that were using it to hire employees before you taxed it away from them.*


M'bold.

Nahhh...


----------



## Dr.G.

Canada Post reaches tentative deal with union, averting job action - Business - CBC News

Good news, since a strike/lock out serves nobody's best interests.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Good news, since a strike/lock out serves nobody's best interests.


Too bad. I would have liked to see the whiners pushed even further into irrelevancy...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Too bad. I would have liked to see the whiners pushed even further into irrelevancy...


Yep. After each strike, people realize how little they need those services and find alternate ways to do business.

People today are shocked to realize that as late as the 1960s, the mail was delivered twice a day. You stood a chance of dropping a letter in the mail and having it delivered inside the city the same day--before computers.


----------



## FeXL

Oh, there's a surprise...

NEB indefinitely suspends Energy East hearings in Montreal



> Tonight, the axe finally fell. Shortly after 7 p.m. EDT, Radio-Canada reported in French that the hearings on the Energy East pipeline proposal would be suspended indefinitely.
> 
> In a statement posted on its website, the National Energy Board blamed "a violent disruption in the hearing room this morning which threatened the security of everyone involved in the panel session" for the decision to postpone tomorrow's hearings. The board promised to "provide more information tomorrow about how it will hear from Montreal intervenors." At this time it remains unclear if the regulatory body will attempt to hold more hearings in Montreal.


One wonders if the $10,000,000,000 that Alberta ships to Quebec each year was held back would there be any influence on the decision making process...

Directly related:

Joe Oliver: Why equalization no longer works

First:



> Equalization is about to loom large in federal-provincial relations and will make the prime minister’s promise to meet with his provincial counterparts increasingly uncomfortable.


More:



> [T]he resource economies of Alberta, Newfoundland and Labrador and Saskatchewan are reeling.
> 
> At the same time, these resource-based provinces will likely be aggrieved that the three-year weighted average calculation of fiscal capacity does not fully take account of their current financial pain, as Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall has already pointed out. *Meanwhile, lowering the average fiscal capacity may reduce the amount Quebec receives.*


M'bold.

Wait for the hue & cry.

Further:



> *This brings us to the highly contentiousness issue of whether a province that could generate resource revenue, but decides not to, should see transfers reduced accordingly.* Several provinces have imposed a moratorium on fracking of oil and gas, even though fracking has been safely utilized for over 40 years in Western Canada and fracking has made the U.S. the largest producer of oil in the world. *Certain provinces and municipalities also oppose new export pipelines.* Apparently, they believe it perfectly acceptable to receive transfers derived from resource development in other provinces, *and yet improper to develop their own resources or even permit development elsewhere.*


M'bold.

<coughQuebeccough>


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Interesting read.

Trudeau Manipulation is causing internal rifts inside “party”



> Things inside the liberal tent began to overheat by late June and early July as Gay Pride Parades throughout Canada began to send out dignitary invitations. The hard-line muslims inside caucus apparently make no secret about their disapproval of LGBT lives. In numerous muslim dominated states in the Levant gays are regularly and summarily executed upon detection. To the muslim caucus members, seeing Trudeau take such an enthusiastic and active role in numerous “Pride” parades was taken as an affront and betrayal.


When even the left starts asking questions...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> Trudeau Manipulation is causing internal rifts inside “party”
> 
> 
> 
> When even the left starts asking questions...


Most of the Muslims I have met would identify themselves as conservative. They voted Trudeau because Harper threw them under a bus. Harper decided he could throw anyone who was Canadian on temporary loan from the IRS, Muslim and every other immigrant under the Con bus and still win the election. Turns out he was wrong.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

This is perfect. I can't think of a better role for this goof to play than a cartoon character...

Can a Canadian Prime Minister be an Action Hero?



> Justin Trudeau has had a number of careers: schoolteacher [cough-substitute drama teacher-cough], snowboard instructor [definitely PM material], and since last year, prime minister of Canada. Now he's an action hero. A new issue of Civil War II from Marvel Comics, being released Aug. 31, has Trudeau facing evil-doers in the halls of Canada's Parliament — and in the boxing ring.
> 
> The front cover shows Trudeau sitting in the corner of a boxing ring, elbows resting on the ropes. He's wearing boxing shorts, a tank top emblazoned with a large maple leaf *and a smile that's a bit difficult to read.*


M'bold.

That's 'cause he's stoned...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> This is perfect. I can't think of a better role for this goof to play than a cartoon character...
> 
> Can a Canadian Prime Minister be an Action Hero?
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> That's 'cause he's stoned...


.


----------



## Aurora

quote " a tank top emblazoned with a large maple leaf"
That aint no maple leaf

I guess it depends on the picture you see. I looked at the one posted by Macfury and the logo was definitely a cannabis plant.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The Government of Canada has been making false or unverifiable claims about Islamophobia and hate crimes. In an area with enough problems already, false reports by very senior officials do not help.

They sum:



> The Prime Minister and his chief law enforcement and intelligence officer have both made unsupported claims of hate crimes against Canadian citizens, even though there is no evidence to support either case. These kind of false claims against Canadian citizens in an area where too many fake claims are already made is damaging. *From very senior officials, we expect better.*


M'bold.

Look who we're dealing with here...


----------



## eMacMan

Given the Cons anti-Canadian record, this is hilarious.

Remember as you read this that the Harpoon brought us Bill C-24 which said you aren't really Canadian if you have a second citizenship. 

There's the FATCA-IGA which gives Canadian Government blessings to the IRS plan to extort the life savings of nearly a million Canadians whom the IRS claims to be Americans on temporary loan to Canada from the IRS.

The great niqab fiasco.

The continued mistreatment of Canadian Natives.

Bill C-51........................

Screening immigrants for 'anti-Canadian' values will make Canada safer: Leitch


----------



## Dr.G.

Justin Trudeau advises exporters to seek success with Nova Scotia blueberry model - Nova Scotia - CBC News

An interesting niche.


----------



## FeXL

Civil service parrots Trudeau’s propaganda



> Back in 2011, federal bureaucrats took issue with using the phrase “Harper government” to describe the previous administration in official government news releases.
> 
> Apparently, that was too partisan for the gentle souls in Canada’s civil service.
> 
> These same bureaucrats, however, had no problem parroting Justin Trudeau’s favourite partisan talking point when announcing the delivery of a Liberal campaign promise.


Yeah, there's a surprise...


----------



## FeXL

So it's not just a few guys on a blog...

Globe & Mail buried THESE poll numbers about immigration (and Trudeau should be worried)



> The new Globe & Mail/Nanos poll is the very first one I’ve seen that shows a very distinct difference between where the Canadian public is, and where the Trudeau government is going, on the topic of immigration and refugees.
> 
> The Globe barely reported on some of the most interesting numbers:
> 
> *74 per cent of Canadians support more security on Middle East immigrants, and 39 per cent of Canadians want fewer immigrants overall.*


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Dated but relevant.

Immigrants should adopt Canadian values to settle here: survey



> Wojtek Sawicki, a Polish-born immigrant who now calls Toronto home, says he thinks newcomers should adopt Canadian values as a requirement of settling here, including the idea that men and women are fundamentally equal.
> 
> A new poll suggests the 31-year-old is far from alone. In fact, there’s a solid consensus around the notion that immigrants should accept certain values as a precondition for joining Canadian society.
> 
> The survey, conducted by Environics and commissioned by the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, found that both immigrants to Canada and those born here have almost identical opinions on the subject.
> 
> The poll, being unveiled Wednesday, finds that 97 per cent of Canadians feel newcomers should embrace “gender equality” and *“tolerance of others”* as a condition of being admitted into this country.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Why, that would be legitimizing it!

Canadian Gov’t Will no Longer Call Islamic State by its Name



> According to Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, the Islamic State “is neither Islamic nor a state,” and so will be referred to as Daesh.
> 
> The minister revealed the change in its 2016 Public Report on the Terrorist Threat to Canada, in which he introduced the new title for the terror group.


He can call them $h!t On A Stick, for all I care. All the public needs to know is that they are a bunch of raping, murderous bastards who follow the Koran & are intent on taking over the world.


----------



## FeXL

'Canadian values' debate and medieval beliefs



> The debate about “Canadian values” — started by Kellie Leitch, one of the candidates for the leadership of the Conservative Party — erupted into the predictable insinuation that she was racist, xenophobic and guilty of the ultimate offence of the times: Islamophobia.
> 
> Fortunately, for her, it did not take long for the question of Canadian values clashing head on with medieval beliefs to erupt when the Globe and Mail on Tuesday reported on how a number of Muslim families in Toronto had taken their children out of music classes, insisting they “cannot allow their children to be in the same room where musical instruments are being played.”
> 
> The story revolved around Mohammad Nouman Dasu, a Quran teacher at Scarborough’s Jame Abu Bakr Siddique mosque, who led the campaign to ban Muslim students from being exposed to music.


More:



> Imam Ingar, who also heads the Scarborough Muslim Association, added: “We do not compromise with anyone on the clear-cut orders and principles conveyed by the Prophet [Muhammad].”


Sounds like something out of a Kevin Bacon movie, doesn't it?

More:

Mandatory music classes hit a bad note with some Muslim parents 



> When music class begins this week at Toronto’s Donwood Park elementary school, Mohammad Nouman Dasu will send a family member to collect his three young children. They will go home for an hour rather than sing and play instruments – a mandatory part of the Ontario curriculum he believes violates his Muslim faith.
> 
> The Scarborough school and the Toronto District School Board originally had offered an accommodation – suggesting students could just clap their hands in place of playing instruments or listen to acapella versions of O Canada – but not a full exemption from the class.


On Ontario accommodating Muslims (but not Christians) on a certain sex-ed curriculum:

Toronto public school caves in to pressure, offers alternative sex-ed curriculum



> Thorncliffe Park Public School, located in a predominantly Muslim area of Toronto where, according to the 2011 National Household Survey the majority of residents are from South Asia and Urdu is the most commonly spoken language at home, will be offering an alternative Health and Physical Education Curriculum (“sex-ed”) in a bid to keep classes full, reported 680 News.


----------



## FeXL

Nope. No quotas. Best qualified person for the job gets it. Period.

Canadians open to quotas to boost indigenous representation in government



> Support to expanding representation was strongest in Eastern and Central Canada, especially in Quebec where 56 per cent said they supported the idea. Opposition was most evident Manitoba and Saskatchewan where 26 per cent were opposed.
> 
> The survey asked Canadians who opposed expanding indigenous representation to give reasons for their objections. *The most common reason, given by 35 per cent of them, was that all Canadians are equal and no group should be given preferential treatment.*
> 
> About 10 per cent said indigenous peoples are adequately represented; nine per cent said they were over-represented; nine per cent said they were irresponsible and might abuse the system, and that *representation should be based on qualifications not background.*


M'bold.

Yep.


----------



## fjnmusic

eMacMan said:


> Given the Cons anti-Canadian record, this is hilarious.
> 
> Remember as you read this that the Harpoon brought us Bill C-24 which said you aren't really Canadian if you have a second citizenship.
> 
> There's the FATCA-IGA which gives Canadian Government blessings to the IRS plan to extort the life savings of nearly a million Canadians whom the IRS claims to be Americans on temporary loan to Canada from the IRS.
> 
> The great niqab fiasco.
> 
> The continued mistreatment of Canadian Natives.
> 
> Bill C-51........................
> 
> Screening immigrants for 'anti-Canadian' values will make Canada safer: Leitch



Good examples. Not that certain people are going to accept these truths.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Given the Cons anti-Canadian record, this is hilarious.


Given that the Conservatives did not have anything even remotely close to an "anti-Canadian record" whatsoever, YOU are hilarious.

That you went on to list some of the strong positive policies they enacted is even funnier.


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> Given that the Conservatives did not have anything even remotely close to an "anti-Canadian record" whatsoever, YOU are hilarious.
> 
> That you went on to list some of the strong positive policies they enacted is even funnier.


Did not even include Bill C-24 in the examples. That was the one that made any first or second generation Canadian a second class citizen along with those of us on temporary loan from the IRS. 

Trudeau did roll back the most offensive portion of C-24. About the only positive thing you can say for him. The FATCA-IGA remains in place, so any one with the slightest American taint is still a second class Canadian citizen. So despite the election promise a Canadian, is not really a Canadian if the IRS deems otherwise.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Did not even include Bill C-24 in the examples.


An excellent piece of pro-Canada legislation that was long overdue.


----------



## Rps

Question for you.... Do you consider people who do not hold Canadian values ( what ever they are ) the same as those who have anti-Canadian values ?


----------



## eMacMan

heavyall said:


> An excellent piece of pro-Canada legislation that was long overdue.


How is telling 10% of Canadian citizens, that they are not really Canadian citizens, pro-Canadian? 

How is giving secret police organizations carte blanche with zero oversight remotely Canadian? Hitler, Stalin, and Bush would love that idea, but it certainly does not line up with Canadian values.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> How is telling 10% of Canadian citizens, that they are not really Canadian citizens, pro-Canadian?


Because it protects the country from new-comers who abuse the hospitality that we extend them. Privileges can be revoked. And in some cases, they should be.


----------



## CubaMark

*Kellie Leitch.*

A complete waste of space as Minister Responsible for the Status of Women; the focus of justifiable ridicule for pushing the "barbaric cultural practices tip line" idea; and a complete joke as a Northern Donald Trump clone in her quest to become leader of the Federal Conservatives:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

What has she said that has you all sweaty, CM?


----------



## MacGuiver2.0

Macfury said:


> What has she said that has you all sweaty, CM?


As Evan so eloquently pointed out, its her obvious lack of fairness. You see, opposing gay marriage or penises in the Ladies room by a Christian is a far greater violation of Canadian values and threat to public safety than Muslim honour killing, forced clitorectomy, forced marriage, hanging gays, stoning adulterers, polygamy, sex selective abortions, burkas in July or demanding the implementation of sharia law. It wouldn't be fair to stop any of this if we can tolerate a guy that won't bake a gay wedding cake. Err... correction, we won't tolerate that.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> What has she said that has you all sweaty, CM?


He's angry that a recent poll on the topic has revealed that 57% of Liberals & 59% of NDP are racist, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, Islamophobes:

Canadians favour screening would-be immigrants for ‘anti-Canadian’ values, poll shows



> Two-thirds of Canadians want prospective immigrants to be screened for “anti-Canadian” values, a new poll reveals, lending support to an idea that is stirring controversy in political circles.
> 
> Conservative MP Kellie Leitch, a candidate in her party’s leadership contest, has floated the idea of screening newcomers for their attitudes on intolerance toward other religions, cultures and sexual orientations and reluctance to embrace Canadian freedoms.
> 
> A new Forum Research Inc. poll for the Star shows that Leitch may be tapping into an idea that Canadians favour with 67 per cent saying immigrants should indeed be screened for “anti-Canadian values.”
> 
> *More importantly for Leitch, the poll shows that the idea is especially popular among Conservative supporters with 87 per cent backing the idea and just 8 per cent opposed compared to 57 per cent support among Liberals and 59 per cent for New Democrat voters.*


Yeah, my bold.

Anything that can unite the political spectrum like this scares the hell out of the left. Just like the burka ban numbers that killed the NDP during the federal election.


----------



## FeXL

Brad Wall gets it...

Saskatchewan's Wall warns national unity at risk if Energy East review 'doesn't end well'



> Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall is warning of dire consequences if Canada fails to properly conduct its pipeline review process. In an interview on BNN, Wall said the debate over TransCanada’s (TRP.TO) proposed Energy East oil pipeline threatens to divide the nation regionally, as *western provinces feel their needs are an afterthought to decision-makers in Central Canada.*
> 
> “We need this, and I’m worried, frankly, that if this process does not end well, and obviously it needs to be a process that stands up to all rigor and scrutiny, but if it doesn’t end well, I worry about unity in the country, because I think in western Canada there is frustration that we can’t get our goods to market,” he said.


M'bold.

The west has always played second fiddle to Central Canada. All we've ever been viewed as is a milch cow for Ottawa. Tired of this $h!t...


----------



## Dr.G.

Liberals' popularity rising in Atlantic Canada: CRA poll - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News

It was amazing, and sad, to see three senior NDP (two in NS and one in NL) MPs go down to defeat in the last election.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Liberals' popularity rising in Atlantic Canada: CRA poll - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News
> 
> It was amazing, and sad, to see three senior NDP (two in NS and one in NL) MPs go down to defeat in the last election.


I dislike the Liberals, but having them replace an NDP member is an improvement.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I dislike the Liberals, but having them replace an NDP member is an improvement.


Well, if you knew the three major NDP members of Parliament that were defeated (I knew Jack Harris of St. John's East personally), I think that you would say that Canada lost three hard working, dedicated, experienced and open-minded parliamentarians.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Well, if you knew the three major NDP members of Parliament that were defeated (I knew Jack Harris of St. John's East personally), I think that you would say that Canada lost three hard working, dedicated, experienced and open-minded parliamentarians.


I don't want them to be open-minded. I want them to, as much as possible, disavow socialism.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

How unions got $85 million from the Trudeau government to help them recruit construction workers



> The issue is simple: outside of Quebec, the vast majority of employment in construction is in the open shop sector, wherein union membership is not a condition of employment. For example, in Saskatchewan 15 per cent of the construction workforce is unionized versus 85 per cent in the open shop sector. In Alberta, less than 20 per cent of the construction workforce is represented by a building trades union. In New Brunswick, over 70 per cent of the workforce is open shop. These figures are consistent across the country, yet the federal government has chosen to give millions to union training centres.
> 
> This move could topple Canada’s entire apprenticeship system, which has been working well for decades. No open shop employer is going to send an employee to a union training centre, since those facilities are de facto recruitment centres that include union organization in the training curriculum. Meanwhile, without employers, the bulk of whom are in the open shop sector, there is nowhere for apprentices to work.
> 
> The warning signs for a potential boondoggle quickly become apparent, as unions will have millions to spend at their training centres, but nowhere for their apprentices to work.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

B, b, bu, but...Duffy!!!

Hunter Tootoo’s messy love triangle helped spur resignation from cabinet



> Hunter Tootoo’s inappropriate sexual liaison with a young staffer spiralled out of control when the former fisheries minister broke off the affair so he could pursue a committed relationship with the young woman’s estranged mother, sources say.
> 
> Two sources said the staffer was unaware Mr. Tootoo had been dating her mother and that the relationship had become serious. The mother also had no idea Mr. Tootoo was having an affair with her daughter, whom he had hired to work in his Parliament Hill office.


----------



## FeXL

Careful for that stick while you're reaching for the carrot...

Carrot:

Ontario can afford to cut HST off hydro bills, Liberals insist



> Liberal Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault insists that Ontario is in such good financial shape, it can afford to give away $1 billion by cutting the HST off hydro bills.
> 
> Thibeault made the comments moments after his government delivered a throne speech at Queen’s Park, promising relief from soaring hydro rates, effective Jan. 1, 2017.
> 
> The Liberals will knock Ontario’s 8% portion of the HST off the bill in the form of a rebate.
> 
> Oh, and Ontarians living in rural areas or the north can take 20% off their bills as a matter of “fairness,” said Thibeault.


Stick:

Most rural Ontario hydro customers to see new increases, despite rebate



> Some of Ontario’s most hard-hit ratepayers will see new increases on their bills, despite a promised eight per cent rebate on electricity bills announced by the Liberal government this week.
> 
> ...
> 
> [C]ustomers living in the lowest density rural areas, who use the least amount of power, will be hit hardest, with distribution soaring by as much as 25 per cent.


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, the federal Liberals and the selfie king are sure helping out Fort Mac.

Fort McMurray rebuild threatened after feds impose drywall tariff | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Dr.G.

Seven ways President Trump would be worse than you think for Canada - The Globe and Mail

Not good news for us here in Canada.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Not good news for us here in Canada.


Funny that...I have very few problems with most things on that list.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Funny that...I have very few problems with most things on that list.


Sadly, this is not so for most other Canadians. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, this is not so for most other Canadians. Paix, mon ami.


Well, I've always considered myself a leader, not a follower, my friend...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Well, I've always considered myself a leader, not a follower, my friend...


Exactly. I've put up with so many "progressive" policies that have made my life demonstrably worse and there hasn't been a hint of sympathy from the lefty crowd.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Well, I've always considered myself a leader, not a follower, my friend...





Macfury said:


> Exactly. I've put up with so many "progressive" policies that have made my life demonstrably worse and there hasn't been a hint of sympathy from the lefty crowd.


Well, when the hammer falls and gives all a big "trumping", it matters not where we stand in line. So, let's all hope for a Clinton victory. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Well, when the hammer falls and gives all a big "trumping", it matters not where we stand in line. So, let's all hope for a Clinton victory. Paix, mes amis.


I remain far more concerned by what Bill's Wife has actually _done_ than anything Trump has _said_.

As the leader of our biggest trading partner, I'd far rather deal with Trump than her. I'll take the "trumping" over the lying, any day, my friend.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> I remain far more concerned by what Bill's Wife has actually _done_ than anything Trump has _said_.
> 
> As the leader of our biggest trading partner, I'd far rather deal with Trump than her. I'll take the "trumping" over the lying, any day, my friend.


Well, that is your choice. Luckily, I am still able to vote for Clinton in Georgia. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Well, that is your choice. Luckily, I am still able to vote for Clinton in Georgia. Paix, mon ami.


That would make my life demonstrably worse.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Well, that is your choice. Luckily, I am still able to vote for Clinton in Georgia. Paix, mon ami.


Good for you, my friend! With Trump showing an averaged poll lead of 3.8 in Georgia, Bill's Wife will need all the help she can get.

Of course, with American voters finally clueing in to her lies, her Weekend At Bernies-like health problems, the Clinton Foundation coming under scrutin, a billion dollars spent on Trump attack ads with zero dollars spent extolling her non-existant accomplishments, FBI investigations, earwigs, upcoming debates & a veritable slew of other issues finally coming to light, she has a tough row to hoe.

It's going to be so...sad, watching the chickens coming home to roost. I almost feel sorry for her.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

But enough gloating, my friend! Let us speak between ourselves no more of this trivial issue until that magical day in November when we can toast both winner & loser with a fine Cuban cigar rolled on the thighs of a young virgin & dipped in a rare, old cognac.

Until then...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That would make my life demonstrably worse.


I don't want to make your life worse, mon ami, just trying to make the world a bit safer for one and all. Paix.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Good for you, my friend! With Trump showing an averaged poll lead of 3.8 in Georgia, Bill's Wife will need all the help she can get.
> 
> Of course, with American voters finally clueing in to her lies, her Weekend At Bernies-like health problems, the Clinton Foundation coming under scrutin, a billion dollars spent on Trump attack ads with zero dollars spent extolling her non-existant accomplishments, FBI investigations, earwigs, upcoming debates & a veritable slew of other issues finally coming to light, she has a tough row to hoe.
> 
> It's going to be so...sad, watching the chickens coming home to roost. I almost feel sorry for her.
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> But enough gloating, my friend! Let us speak between ourselves no more of this trivial issue until that magical day in November when we can toast both winner & loser with a fine Cuban cigar rolled on the thighs of a young virgin & dipped in a rare, old cognac.
> 
> Until then...


Yes, the only president I voted for who won Georgia and also won the presidency was Jimmy Carter. Gore, Kerry, Obama (twice) all lost the state of Georgia.


----------



## Macfury

Ouch. Jimmy Carter. A nice guy who was a terrible president. His later attacks on Israel had me reconsidering the nice guy part.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Ouch. Jimmy Carter. A nice guy who was a terrible president. His later attacks on Israel had me reconsidering the nice guy part.


Met him once at the Univ. of Georgia graduation in June, 1977. Yes, he was a nice guy and an OK president.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Liberals accused of 'entitlement' over $1.1M in staff moving expenses



> The Conservatives are accusing the Liberals of “entitlement” and "lining their pockets" after it was revealed they approved more than $1.1 million in relocation costs for staffers.
> 
> The figure includes more than $200,000 for two members of the Prime Minister’s Office and Justin Trudeau has so far refused to say who.


$125,000? :yikes: Where the hell did he/she/it move? Mars?


----------



## CubaMark

*Ontario cancels plans for more green energy*

Ontario's Liberal government took steps Tuesday to keep electricity rates down, cancelling plans to sign contracts for up to 1,000 megawatts of power from solar, wind and other renewable energy sources.

Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault said the decision is expected to save the province up to $3.8 billion in costs over what was projected in its 2013 long-term energy plan, and will keep about $2.45 a month from being added to hydro bills.

The Independent Electricity System Operator's planning outlook determined Ontario has a robust supply of electricity for the next decade and won't need the additional power it had planned to purchase, added Thibeault.

"It was power that we didn't need right now," he said. "Looking at this prudently and finding ways to continue to have downward pressure on rates, because that's one of the mandates that I've been given by the premier, so I acted on it."​
(CTV)


----------



## SINC

Yep, that fits.


----------



## Dr.G.

Liberals consider ending costly Canada Savings Bond program - Politics - CBC News

Sad, since they did me well in all my 38 years with the CSB payroll savings plan. Still, I agree with questioning the $60-million price tag it costs to run the program each year.


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> Liberals consider ending costly Canada Savings Bond program - Politics - CBC News
> 
> Sad, since they did me well in all my 38 years with the CSB payroll savings plan. Still, I agree with questioning the $60-million price tag it costs to run the program each year.


Well, since the introduction of TFSA and other fiat instruments maybe it is time to pull the plug......but, payroll deduction was an effective way to start a savings plan and many started their portfolio ( I included ) with CSBs.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Well, since the introduction of TFSA and other fiat instruments maybe it is time to pull the plug......but, payroll deduction was an effective way to start a savings plan and many started their portfolio ( I included ) with CSBs.


True. I urged my son to open up a TFSA prior to any RRSP until he earned enough income to make it worthwhile to save on taxes.


----------



## CubaMark

Federal Liberals approve Petronas LNG project in B.C. —with numerous conditions | Financial Post

Federal government approves liquefied natural gas project on B.C. coast with 190 conditions - CBC News

Trudeau government at pains to explain Pacific Northwest LNG - CBC News

Trudeau Just Approved a Giant Carbon Bomb in B.C. | DeSmog Canada


----------



## Macfury

Thanks for little good news for a change, CM!



CubaMark said:


> Federal Liberals approve Petronas LNG project in B.C. —with numerous conditions | Financial Post
> 
> Federal government approves liquefied natural gas project on B.C. coast with 190 conditions - CBC News
> 
> Trudeau government at pains to explain Pacific Northwest LNG - CBC News
> 
> Trudeau Just Approved a Giant Carbon Bomb in B.C. | DeSmog Canada


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

My tax dollars at work...

Justin Trudeau’s ultimate vanity project costs Canadians over $600K



> How many people does it take to run the Prime Minister’s Twitter account? And what about getting all those selfies and fun videos up on his website? It’s probably more than you thought.
> 
> We now know, because of an Order Paper Question filed by a Conservative MP, that there are seven people that follow the PM around to create and post videos that very few people see and that this vanity project is costing Canadian taxpayers over $600K.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, the Hairdo spoke to the UN.

Rex Murphy: Justin Trudeau’s UN address was a meaningless speech to a worthless body



> This week, it was our dewy-fresh prime minister’s turn to address this esteemed body and, either out of vanity or innocence, he didn’t turn down the invitation. As to the substance of his effusion, one would need an intellectual Geiger counter to find any. *The speech was described by the National Post’s John Ivison as “thin as soup made from the carcass of a starving pigeon.” And that’s being generous.*


M'bold.

Nails it...


----------



## FeXL

B-b-b-bu-but... DUFFY!!!

So, Cole's Notes version is a Liberal MP (hey, theres' a surprise!), Canada's First Afghan Parliamentarian!, didn't know what country she was born in. Consequently, her passport has her place of birth listed as Afghanistan, when in fact she was born in Iran.

Monsef needs to step aside



> Any false representation on a citizenship application can mean your citizenship is revoked. And false information on a refugee application has similar repercussions.
> 
> Several immigration lawyers quoted in a Sun story all confirm this is a serious case. They also noted that an average person would most certainly face some form of consequences for submitting false applications – even if it was done when the person was a child with the forms filled in by a parent.


Maryam Monsef could be stripped of her citizenship without a hearing after revealing she was born in Iran



> Maryam Monsef could be stripped of her citizenship without a hearing under a law the Liberals denounced while in opposition but which they’ve been enforcing aggressively since taking power, civil liberties and refugee lawyers say.
> 
> The democratic institutions minister revealed last week that she was born in Iran, not Afghanistan as she’d long believed. She said her mother, who fled Afghanistan with her daughters when Monsef was 11, didn’t think it mattered where the minister was born since she was still legally considered an Afghan citizen.


So, if the Canadian vetting process cannot even track something as simple as this, on what planet is it considered effective against terrorists?

And, before the screeching starts, no, Harper didn't have an effective vetting procedure in place, either. QED...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

OK, so the average Bay Street denizen probably doesn't know the difference between barley & durum, let alone mustard & canola.

However, in a word-yes.

Trudeau Celebrates Canola Deal By Tweeting What Appears To Be Mustard — Does It Matter?



> It’s probably an honest mistake, but there’s some irony in having the Prime Minister of Canada — the home of canola — send out a tweet celebrating good news about canola with what appears to be a photo of mustard.
> 
> 95 percent of Canadians — including the person in the PMO who looks after Justin Trudeau’s Twitter account — probably see yellow flowers and assume it’s canola. A quick Google image search shows the picture tweeted by Justin Trudeau on Thursday can be found on multiple stock photo websites, wrongly labeled as ‘hard-working farmer in canola’.
> 
> But what about the 43,000-some Canadians who grow the crop? Trudeau was announcing good news for them, but does an error like this takes some of the shine off his message?


For $600,000/year, you'd think you could find someone who'd actually conduct research. Perhaps they were too busy Photoshopping his latest narcissistie, I mean, selfie photo...


----------



## SINC

Trudeau on the spend . . .

https://www.scribd.com/document/325...IP-Trudeau-Mexican-Dinner-Costs-WM#from_embed


----------



## eMacMan

There is a reason for minimum security prisons. Inmates should meet two important criteria. Low escape risk, and should they escape they should not be a danger to society. Question is: Why was someone convicted of second degree murder and forcible confinement placed in minimum security? And why was this not addressed in the press release?
Convicted murderer escapes from Sask. prison - Saskatoon - CBC News



> Police are searching for a convicted murderer who escaped from the Saskatchewan Penitentiary in Prince Albert, Sask. today.
> 
> Roger Joseph Gillet, 64, was not present when the prison counted the inmates in its minimum security unit at 10 a.m. CST this morning.
> 
> Prince Albert Police and the RCMP are now searching for the escapee, having issued a warrant for his arrest.
> ...
> He is currently serving a sentence for second-degree murder, forcible confinement, robbery, prison breach and escaping lawful custody.


----------



## eMacMan

Yowzers.

The Knotheads $15/Ton is expected to cost Albertans $500/head per year. Now the Pompadour wants to more than triple the ante! 

Going by the Knotheads projections that will add about 40¢/liter to the cost of gasoline. Total impact about $1800/year/head. Can I expect to see a $150/month boost to my CPP? Will Photo-Op man be sending me checks to offset his madness? Will they be bumping that $15/hour minimum wage to compensate? How many Canadian oldtimers will be pushed out to sea on ice floes, all to satiate the Great Gore?

So much for 2% inflation, this is going to push the inflation rate into the Reagan realm but without the high savings interest rates to offset it.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

NEP II, by any other name...

Trudeau’s 21st century National Energy Program 



> Don’t like the federal government’s massive new carbon tax that will cost the average middle-class family $2,600 a year by 2022? Blame Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall!
> 
> In a tortured piece of logic, the Regina Leader-Post’s long-time, anti-Wall columnist Murray Mandryk insisted Wall “paved the way” for Trudeau’s tax “by failing to offer an alternative.”
> 
> Huh!?


Yep. Lefty logic, at it's finest.

Related:

Trudeau’s magical, mystery climate plan



> Canada’s approach to “fighting” climate change is based on magical thinking.
> 
> Consider: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced to much fanfare that he is going to ratify the Paris climate treaty.
> 
> In doing so, he has pledged to lower our industrial greenhouse gas emissions linked to climate change to the same levels as former prime minister Stephen Harper promised, back when the Liberals called Harper a climate denier.
> 
> Trudeau is never going to achieve Harper’s targets -- 17% below 2005 levels by 2020, 30% below by 2030 -- because our current level of technology makes it impossible to do so without causing a massive recession.
> 
> Harper was never going to achieve Harper’s targets.


Curious, too, how PM Pompadour's ceilings were Harper's floors. Now, suddenly, however, the Left is fine with it.

Related, too.

Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall right to oppose carbon tax



> The most important question to ask about any plan is: will it work?
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is determined to impose a national carbon tax, but Premier Brad Wall is warning him not to force one on Saskatchewan. Premier Wall is right that a carbon tax could cripple a province already struggling with low non-renewable resource prices. But there’s an another important reason to say no to a carbon tax: *the best attempt at a carbon tax to date hasn’t worked.*


M'bold.

More:



> B.C. has a carbon tax of $30 per tonne, which means a gas tax of 6.7 cents per litre. The plan was to keep increasing the tax. The impact on taxpayers of the carbon tax would be offset by cuts to income taxes, business taxes and others. *Emissions were supposed to go down.*
> 
> ...
> 
> B.C.’s carbon tax has another problem. It’s supposed to reduce emissions. But *B.C.’s emissions are rising.*
> 
> “Since 2010, B.C.’s GHG emissions have increased every year,” said economist Mark Lee. *“As of 2013 they are up 4.3 per cent above 2010 levels.”*
> 
> B.C.’s emissions initially went down after the tax was introduced in 2008, although it’s unclear as to how much of that was due to the carbon tax and how much was due to global economic uncertainty at the time. In any case, B.C.’s emissions are now rising.


M'bold.

D'oh!!!


----------



## SINC

Oh my, will The Hairdo change the law for one of his own?

Trudeau may change law to protect Monsef


----------



## FeXL

Relax, folks. Everything's OK. He's not a refugee...

'I put him in a chokehold': Students stopped attack in UBC dorm



> On Wednesday, officers announced that charges had been laid against an 18-year-old in connection with the frightening attack.
> 
> *Court records show counts of attempted murder, aggravated assault and assault with a weapon have all been approved against Thamer Hameed Almestadi,* one day after the assault that left some on campus feeling uneasy.


M'bold.


----------



## SINC

Bump to see last post by FeXL.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL, SINC, are you attempting to say something by not saying something?

What's your collective point?


----------



## FeXL

Boy, there's a conspiracy hiding behind every post by a conservative, isn't there?

What, snopes doesn't address this? WTF?

Jeezuz...

The crappy software this blog uses occasionally doesn't show the last post that's been posted, especially one that starts off a new page. "Last Post" column will show that a particular poster has posted something new, but when you go to that thread, the penultimate post is the only one showing.

This can be band-aided by doing what SINC did, & post once more to that thread. Like magic, the missing post appears.

Nobody's coming to get you, CM...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Boy, there's a conspiracy hiding behind every post by a conservative, isn't there?
> 
> What, snopes doesn't address this? WTF?
> 
> Jeezuz...
> 
> The crappy software this blog uses occasionally doesn't show the last post that's been posted, especially one that starts off a new page. "Last Post" column will show that a particular poster has posted something new, but when you go to that thread, the penultimate post is the only one showing.
> 
> This can be band-aided by doing what SINC did, & post once more to that thread. Like magic, the missing post appears.
> 
> Nobody's coming to get you, CM...



Under the definition of 'paranoid', I'm pretty sure Webster's has added FeXL's name.... :yikes:

So, leaving aside your distraction and getting back to the actual point: Why is the assault of a student at the University of British Columbia relevant to the Canadian Political Thread?

Or is it a Pavlovian response to any accused criminal whose name doesn't fall within nice, white, anglo-saxon parameters that provokes you to posting this?

You seem.... _troubled._


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> The crappy software this blog uses occasionally doesn't show the last post that's been posted, especially one that starts off a new page. "Last Post" column will show that a particular poster has posted something new, but when you go to that thread, the penultimate post is the only one showing.
> 
> This can be band-aided by doing what SINC did, & post once more to that thread. Like magic, the missing post appears


For the record, I haven't experienced this issue, though I recall someone having had that problem at some time in the past. Being unfamiliar with the phenomenon, I didn't 'get' why SINC posted his bump. Regardless, see my previous post and query.


----------



## FeXL

Yet you're the one posting because you're afraid you've missed something...



CubaMark said:


> Under the definition of 'paranoid', I'm pretty sure Webster's has added FeXL's name.... :yikes:


Ah, 'cause it happened in Canada? Because it didn't fit in the Refugee thread? Because this is what will happen if we let in a bunch of under- or non-vetted refugees from Muslim nations? Because it's the first Thursday of the week? I give up. Why?



CubaMark said:


> Why is the assault of a student at the University of British Columbia relevant to the Canadian Political Thread?


Ah, yes. The armchair shrink again. Go analyze the guy in the mirror. He's the one that needs help.



CubaMark said:


> Or is it a Pavlovian response to any accused criminal whose name doesn't fall within nice, white, anglo-saxon parameters that provokes you to posting this?


Stupid I can fix with a book. Wilful ignorance always troubles me...



CubaMark said:


> You seem.... _troubled._


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> ....Ah, 'cause it happened in Canada? Because it didn't fit in the Refugee thread? Because this is what will happen if we let in a bunch of under- or non-vetted refugees from Muslim nations? Because it's the first Thursday of the week? I give up. Why?...


So.... you have no idea why you posted a story about an international student (not a refugee), a teenager, form witness accounts a normally "normal" fellow who has exhibited signs of stress and sleeplessness... no allegations of anything untoward in his political beliefs... no allusions to any sort of hatred of women... nothing that would indicate his religious faith played a role... no actual indication that he's even a Muslim (the surname means little; lots of Christians in Lebanon, Syria, etc.).

The entire basis for your decision to post this into the Canadian political thread boils down to: a young man with a surname that provokes your pre-existing prejudices commits an assault, so the ehMac community must be immediately notified.

Yup. Nothing strange about that at all, FeXL....


----------



## SINC

While there are no direct indications as of YET, relying on nothing being untoward is an often fatal assumption, CM. 

You only die once and by then it is a little late to be forgiving on the basis that "all" people are good mode.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> While there are no direct indications as of YET, relying on nothing being untoward is an often fatal assumption, CM.
> 
> You only die once and by then it is a little late to be forgiving on the basis that "all" people are good mode.


So..... "Guilty until proven non-Muslim terrorist" is the tack we're taking, then?

This fellow certainly doesn't fall into the 'good' category. But from all indications to date, he's no Jihadist snuck into the country by those boneheaded Fiberals as a distraction from the War on Carbon.

This is what folks mean when they say "jumping the gun".


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> So..... "Guilty until proven non-Muslim terrorist" is the tack we're taking, then?
> 
> This fellow certainly doesn't fall into the 'good' category. But from all indications to date, he's no Jihadist snuck into the country by those boneheaded Fiberals as a distraction from the War on Carbon.
> 
> This is what folks mean when they say "jumping the gun".


It's also what folks mean by being "blind to the threat".


----------



## FeXL

Yep. You could go with that.

Or, you could go with the facts of the story: a Saudi student was found with his hands around the throat of a Canadian female. Period...



CubaMark said:


> The entire basis for your decision to post this into the Canadian political thread boils down to: a young man with a surname that provokes your pre-existing prejudices commits an assault, so the ehMac community must be immediately notified.


----------



## CubaMark

*Back to topics of some relevance to this thread....*

*Reaching for the top while bashing the elites: Kellie Leitch picks up the cudgel*










Oddly enough, Kellie Leitch is an orthopedic pediatric surgeon with a master's degree in business administration. She's also a university professor, and helped found a graduate course of study at the Richard Ivey School.

I use "oddly," because despite that elite level of education and accomplishment, she's chosen to sit as an Opposition backbencher, and surely repairing the bodies and saving the lives of children is more rewarding work than clamouring for some attention in Ottawa, or, as Liberal minister Carolyn Bennett so succinctly called her time in opposition, "yapping."

* * *​
...she's not talking about reforms our health-care system desperately needs, or eliminating trade barriers, or the nosebleed levels of personal debt Canadians are carrying.

Instead, Dr. Kellie Leitch, surgeon and distinguished scholar at one of the best business schools in Canada, has decided to denounce "the elites."

Seriously.

Among the elites her campaign has targeted is Andrew Scheer, the former House Speaker, who also happens to be running for the party leadership. Scheer, a right-leaning conservative, is so elite that he holds a bachelor of arts degree, and except for six elite months working in insurance, has made a living getting elected to office.

* * *​
According to Leitch, the media elites are always "blowing gaskets" about her campaign, because she's so outrageously patriotic and un-elite.

After posing for the cover of Maclean's magazine hoisting a big Canadian flag over her shoulder, she announced that "self-hating Canadian elites" were upset because they "can't stand the idea of a proud Conservative standing up for Canada."

* * *​
The point is to convince the Conservative Party base it has a choice between that darned gal Kellie, who shops at the dollar store and loves a double-double at Timmy's, and the rest of the Tory contenders, who in all likelihood love hot yoga and hate hockey and read the Globe and Mail.

"Elitism is not a function of income or education," explains the Leitch strategist. "It's about being out of touch with average people."

Which is, actually, a very American view.

* * *​
These people gush this nonsense because it works. The chumps buy it: Donald and Sarah and George and Ted are just like them.

* * *​
But harping on "elitism," which ultimately plays on envious contempt for any sort of learning or distinction, is relatively new here.

Make no mistake: Kellie Leitch is a charter member of the elite, and should be admired for it.

Accomplished, elite people in positions of leadership is a good and natural thing.

Common sense, while valuable, is no replacement for serious education. Only in the Tea Party world does running a gas station in Peoria qualify you to oversee monetary policy.

I'd prefer my heart specialist to be best in class, and so what if he, or she, arrives at work in a Porsche?​
(CBC)


----------



## SINC

Shes a bigger arse than The Donald.


----------



## SINC

Bring anyone in politics to mind?

Excessive selfie-taking could be sign of mental illness, study


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Bring anyone in politics to mind?


Several...


----------



## FeXL

FeXL said:


> Yep. You could go with that.
> 
> Or, you could go with the facts of the story: a Saudi student was found with his hands around the throat of a Canadian female. Period...


More facts: The Saudi student was Muslim & he had cut her throat with a knife to some extent.

Caution: Link to CBC article inside ( :yikes: I know. I'm surprised, too...).

Muslim student CUTS THROAT of female student, gets put in chokehold by heroic Canadian boy


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> More facts: The Saudi student was Muslim & he had cut her throat with a knife to some extent.
> 
> Caution: Link to CBC article inside ( :yikes: I know. I'm surprised, too...).
> 
> Muslim student CUTS THROAT of female student, gets put in chokehold by heroic Canadian boy


(a) the information you just *SHOCKINGlY DISCOVERED!!!* :yikes: isn't new - it was contained in the initial reports linked earlier.

(b) citing the Norwegian Defence League, a far-Right white supremacist organization? :yikes: More evidence of the kinds of lunatic fringe websites you like to frequent, as though we didn't already have enough of that when you went off on that GermanWings pilot-is-a-jihadist bender awhile back....

FeXL, you're almost as entertaining (in a train wreck kinda way) as The Donald! :lmao:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> (a) the information you just *SHOCKINGlY DISCOVERED!!!* :yikes: isn't new - it was contained in the initial reports linked earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> (b) citing the Norwegian Defence League, a far-Right white supremacist organization? :yikes: More evidence of the kinds of lunatic fringe websites you like to frequent, as though we didn't already have enough of that when you went off on that GermanWings pilot-is-a-jihadist bender awhile back....
> 
> 
> 
> FeXL, you're almost as entertaining (in a train wreck kinda way) as The Donald! :lmao:



If I'm not mistaken, the perpetrator was also an international student, not an immigrant. There's also the source within the article: the good old Rebel Media again. It doesn't matter how many times one cites them; they're still about as reliable as the Weekly World News. Next, it will be revealed that batboy was actually a Muslim Syrian Refugee. Next! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Like I said, CM, one of these days I'm actually going to hunt down a "far right" link, just to show you what they actually look like.

And, despite the fact that the NDL is, allegedly, "a far-Right white supremacist organization", you can find nothing to debunk about the article. Like most of your recent posts, all you can do is attack the messenger. Guess we know what you got, right?

Nuttin'...



CubaMark said:


> (b) citing the Norwegian Defence League, a far-Right white supremacist organization? :yikes: More evidence of the kinds of lunatic fringe websites you like to frequent...


----------



## Macfury

CM still has his hooks into "Crooks and Liars" for accurate information!


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Like I said, CM, one of these days I'm actually going to hunt down a "far right" link, just to show you what they actually look like.


If the NDL doesn't qualify as "Far-Right" in your books, FeXL, we have one more piece of your psychological puzzle.



FeXL said:


> And, despite the fact that the NDL is, allegedly, "a far-Right white supremacist organization", you can find nothing to debunk about the article. Like most of your recent posts, all you can do is attack the messenger.


Again, I have to ask, WTF are you talking about? There's nothing to "debunk"! This kid quite obviously committed the assault, that's not in question. Are you imagining persecutions again? 

My critique lies with your willful fear mongering to serve your prejudicial worldview. Students assault students every day, all across this country, for a variety of reasons. You have no idea what sparked this kid's actions. But because he's a **GASP* MUSLIM!!!* (we think), you offer it is proof of the coming Apocalypse. :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> CM still has his hooks into "Crooks and Liars" for accurate information!


And yet, despite repeated requests, you have never offered evidence of any incorrect information from a C&L-linked story. Funny, that.


----------



## CubaMark

The student who stopped Almestadi isn't impressed with folks like you, FeXL:

UBC attack: Rescuer slams racist comments against Saudi suspect | Vancouver Sun

_Adam Casey doesn’t want to be included in any racist narratives about the part he played in rescuing a fellow University of B.C. student from a violent attack this week._​
and

Xenophobic comments rampant online after international student charged in UBC assault | Globalnews.ca

_The arrest of an 18-year-old international student from Saudi Arabia in connection with an assault at UBC’s Vancouver campus Tuesday is causing rampant racism on social media, but the man who helped to subdue him is denouncing the attacks.

Thamer Almestadi was charged with attempted murder after he allegedly assaulted a woman in one of the student residences. He was caught and held down until police arrived by a Good Samaritan, later identified as engineering student Adam Casey.

Casey says he has heard a few comments around campus, and many more online, about the fact that the attacker was an international student from Saudi Arabia, with a foreign-sounding name.

“These comments are often along the lines of ‘no surprise’ or ‘that’s what happens when you let Muslims into the country’,” Casey told Global News. “Obviously I object wholeheartedly to this view. I believe that some people are already disposed towards bias, bigotry, xenophobia and hate, and that when they see an event like this connected with a Middle Eastern sounding name, it feeds right into their bias.”​_​


----------



## FeXL

<snort> Whatever you say, Dr. Phil.

Just keep on projecting...



CubaMark said:


> If the NDL doesn't qualify as "Far-Right" in your books, FeXL, we have one more piece of your psychological puzzle.


Then why bother?



CubaMark said:


> Again, I have to ask, WTF are you talking about? There's nothing to "debunk"! This kid quite obviously committed the assault, that's not in question.


Nope. I'm imagining that, someday, you'll actually come up with an argument that doesn't contain ad hom attacks, red herrings, logical fallacies, plain, old-fashioned bull$h!t or a veritable host of other detractions from the subject at hand.



CubaMark said:


> Are you imagining persecutions again?


Who is fear-mongering? I merely posted a link to a story about an attack on university campus, with facts about both the attacker & victim. No idle speculation, no editorializing, nothing.

Are you claiming to mind read, again?



CubaMark said:


> My critique lies with your willful fear mongering...


----------



## FeXL

Neither are you. Think I give a rat's ass?



CubaMark said:


> The student who stopped Almestadi isn't impressed with folks like you, FeXL


----------



## FeXL

You're so thick, you don't even realize that it has nothing to do with correct or incorrect.

It's no wonder you don't get half the posts on this blog.

But that's OK. Carry on in your own little world...



CubaMark said:


> And yet, despite repeated requests, you have never offered evidence of any incorrect information from a C&L-linked story. Funny, that.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Who is fear-mongering? I merely posted a link to a story about an attack on university campus, with facts about both the attacker & victim. No idle speculation, no editorializing, nothing.














FeXL said:


> Relax, folks. Everything's OK. He's not a refugee...
> 
> 'I put him in a chokehold': Students stopped attack in UBC dorm


*That ain't nothing.*


----------



## FeXL

I'm sorry. Is he a refugee? I thought he was a student. Better go back & check that "far right" site, the NDL. Hang on...

Nope. He's a student. Confirmed by that other "far right" site, Rebel Media. 

Funny, that. Two alleged "far right" sites, paragons of lies, half truths & misdirection, actually get the facts correct. Curious, that...



CubaMark said:


> That ain't nothing.


----------



## CubaMark

Sigh. I give up. Anyone else out there able (more to the point: willing) to translate what FeXL is going off on? He's making me dizzy with all of the circles... so many circles....


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> Sigh. I give up. Anyone else out there able (more to the point: willing) to translate what FeXL is going off on? He's making me dizzy with all of the circles... so many circles....



There's comes a point of diminishing returns with some folks, Mark, where the more you try to explain, the less they understand. I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> There's comes a point of diminishing returns with some folks, Mark, where the more you try to explain, the less they understand. I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.


Trouble is, neither one of you are sweating the big stuff and that is scary. Swallowing the left wing stuff hook, line and sinker without question is a serious mistake.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Trouble is, neither one of you are sweating the big stuff and that is scary. Swallowing the left wing stuff hook, line and sinker without question is a serious mistake.



That may be, but it doesn't make FeXL's comments any more intelligible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That may be, but it doesn't make FeXL's comments any more intelligible.


See, there you go not getting it again.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> See, there you go not getting it again.



You mean swallowing the left wing stuff hook line and sinker? Yeah I get that, I just don't agree. It's not really all that different from swallowing the right wing stuff hook, line and sinker if you think about it. Extremes are extremes. 

I was agreeing with Mark that our little friend needed to clarify his point for anybody to be able to respond to it. If there's something else you think I'm not getting, please explain. I certainly don't aim to be obtuse. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I disagree. If PM Pompadour's carbon tax is what it takes to get Ontario heads out of their backsides, bring it on.

Trudeau's carbon price last thing Ontario needs



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently announced all provinces must soon adopt a “price on carbon” of $50 per tonne or else face a carbon tax imposed by the federal government.
> 
> This could mean yet another tax hike for Ontario families, who already pay 42.5% of their average income in taxes and have been hit hard by recent tax increases at both the provincial and federal level.
> 
> It’s the last thing Ontarians need.


----------



## FeXL

I want to elaborate just a bit more on this. It relates directly to the first quote in my sig.

You see, CM, I don't limit my online reading to a short, Prog approved list of sites, with everybody else dismissed out of hand. I read articles from across the political spectrum. And, if something salient crops up during my morning blogroll, it doesn't matter to me who wrote it or what their particular political leanings may be. If it's relevant to the topic at hand, there's a good chance I'll quote & link to it.

Not even you are wrong all the time...

(edit)

I'd never even heard of the NDL before I ran across that link. I know I've never been on their site before because my browser asked if they could set a cookie. And I certainly didn't conduct an online check to find out where their political proclivities may lie in order to find out if it was "proper" to quote them. 



CubaMark said:


> (b) citing the Norwegian Defence League, a far-Right white supremacist organization?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Screw you, Justin...

Quebec and Bombardier get subsidies, while the west gets a carbon tax and tariffs



> Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall was on CTV’s "Question Period" discussing the carbon tax. He made the point that his province — in fact, the entire western economy — was hurting and now was not the time for a carbon tax that would only do more damage.
> 
> He compared it to Ottawa slapping a tax on the auto industry back in 2008 when that industry was reeling. Except of course that never happened; there was a bailout instead.
> 
> Is there a bailout of the oil industry? No.
> 
> Is there help for large scale farmers that will see costs go up significantly thanks to a carbon tax? No.
> 
> What is there?
> 
> *Well, there is the special tariff on dry wall that’s pushing up the costs of home building and home renovations by thousands of dollars,and it’s a tariff that only applies west of the Manitoba-Ontario border.*


Bold from the link.

Here's a tip for the Prog boyz: the link goes directly to Rebel Media. That shouldn't matter to anyone who can actually refute the article. If all you can do is attack the messenger, save yourself some public humiliation: don't put your ignorance on display here for all to see.


----------



## FeXL

But...DUFFY!!!

Federal Liberals paid $165,000 to silence bagman, trial told



> A trial in Montreal related to a 20-year-old political scandal has heard that Liberal Party officials used federal funds for partisan purposes – including $165,000 to buy the silence of a party bagman who was caught up in an influence-peddling scheme.
> 
> The person on trial is Jacques Corriveau, an 83-year-old former Liberal organizer who was a key player in the scandal-plagued sponsorship program. He is charged with fraud, forgery and laundering proceeds of crime for his role in an initiative that paid advertising agencies to place Government of Canada logos at sporting and cultural events in Quebec after the 1995 referendum on sovereignty.


More:



> *During four days of testimony, Mr. Lemay said more than $700,000 in payments to Mr. Corriveau directly or indirectly benefited the Liberal Party of Canada and various Liberal officials.*


M'bold.

Lying, cheating, thieving, stealing bastards...


----------



## FeXL

Further fallout from Ontario Liberal electricity policy.


David Reevely: Ontario to pay another $28 million for not producing electricity, this time to U.S. wind-farm firm



> Canada has to pay $28 million in damages and legal costs to a company that wanted to build a wind farm in Lake Ontario but whose plans were abruptly halted by the Ontario government in 2011, an international tribunal says.
> 
> Windstream Energy, whose plans were backed by American investors, filed a claim under the North American Free Trade Agreement alleging the province treated it unfairly and inequitably. The company demanded US$475 million in damages. Because it’s a claim under an international trade treaty, the federal government had to stick up for the province’s decision.


And now the ROC has to pay for their folly. It's bad enough to hear about it from a couple thousand miles away. Now that my tax dollars are being used to pay for it...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Not m'bold.










http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/manitoba/canadian-taxpayer-federation-opinion-lamont-1.3802441


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## FeXL

I'm glad you brought that up, fjn. I was going to later anyway.

You Read That Correctly



> "The CTF's media presence is truly remarkable when you consider it has a membership of five people. You red that correctly: five—as in dwarves or deadly sins."


Curious how that version has long since been disappeared from the website of our state broadcaster, responsible for pi$$ing away well over a billion tax dollars a year, idn't it?

Oh, & related to & from the above link:

CBC Bungles Upcoming Rollout of Opinion Section By Publishing Liberal MP’s Staffer’s Spin Piece



> If anyone still thought CBC’s decision to launch an “Opinion site” next month was a good idea, an op-ed published by the CBC today should set her/him sober.
> 
> The hit piece—and yes, I’m aware this response is a hit piece as well, but at least it is published on my own independent blog, not paid for by taxpayers—entitled “Canadian Taxpayers Federation has 5 members—why should we care what they think?” was written by Dougald Lamont, a senior policy advisor for Liberal MP Robert-Falcon Ouellette.


Guess nine zeroes doesn't get you much these days...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Not m'bold.


----------



## eMacMan

Wow whatever the PM is smoking is a good deal stronger than Mary Jane.

Let's be brutal. His carbon tax is a below the belt measure aimed at the crotch of Alberta and Albertans recognize it as such.



> NIAGARA FALLS, Ont. — The Prime Minister says his party will be able to recapture a southern Alberta riding in an upcoming byelection, despite the fact that a Liberal hasn’t been elected to that seat in nearly half a century.
> 
> Justin Trudeau made the bold prediction in his opening address Friday at the federal Liberal Party’s Ontario wing convention in Niagara Falls, Ont.
> ....


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-predicts-liberals-beat-odds-003457082.htm


----------



## Dr.G.

Military exercise on Toronto's waterfront prompts tongue-in-cheek tweets about U.S. invasion, election - Toronto - CBC News

We stand on guard for thee .................


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Wow whatever the PM is smoking is a good deal stronger than Mary Jane.
> 
> Let's be brutal. His carbon tax is a below the belt measure aimed at the crotch of Alberta and Albertans recognize it as such.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-predicts-liberals-beat-odds-003457082.htm



Perhaps Albertans shouldn't paint themselves quite so blue at election time and then expect favours afterwards. Tough lesson to learn. The only real retaliation would be to withhold transfer payments until an Energy East pipeline is built.


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## FeXL

Perhaps PM Petit Potato is a betting man.

Maybe he's willing to put his prime ministership on the line. If a Liberal gets elected in that riding, he gets to stay on & screw us with the Carbon Tax. If not, he resigns quietly in disgrace & saves us all billions of dollars...

While not a member in that riding, they pretty much have the same mindset as all of us across southern Alberta. That riding has lots of oil & gas development which is now in the toilet because of both provincial NDP & federal Liberal, lefty, policy. The NEP is also in the minds of many. Let's just say, we ain't exactly fans of the left.

I'll be very surprised if they go red...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps Albertans shouldn't paint themselves quite so blue at election time and then expect favours afterwards. Tough lesson to learn. The only real retaliation would be to withhold transfer payments until an Energy East pipeline is built.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Perhaps PM Petit Potato is a betting man.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe he's willing to put his prime ministership on the line. If a Liberal gets elected in that riding, he gets to stay on & screw us with the Carbon Tax. If not, he resigns quietly in disgrace & saves us all billions of dollars...
> 
> 
> 
> While not a member in that riding, they pretty much have the same mindset as all of us across southern Alberta. That riding has lots of oil & gas development which is now in the toilet because of both provincial NDP & federal Liberal, lefty, policy. The NEP is also in the minds of many. Let's just say, we ain't exactly fans of the left.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be very surprised if they go red...



They won't go red and likely never will. The only Liberal gov't in Alberta was about 1905 and for a little while thereafter. But that's not the point. When the price of oil is high, Alberta is in a much better position to call the shots. In fact, Alberta would have been in a much better position to reduce transfer payments a few years ago when oil was still high and the PC's were still in charge. Why didn't they do it then? A much harder bargaining position now for the NDP, but at least they're making an effort.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csn5dhrctS4


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps Albertans shouldn't paint themselves quite so blue at election time and then expect favours afterwards. Tough lesson to learn. The only real retaliation would be to withhold transfer payments until an Energy East pipeline is built.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The NDP would have 5 seats in the Alberta Legislature were it not for Alberta voters making it very clear when a government has stepped over the line.

The carbon tax is aimed right at Alberta, and Albertans have every right to be angry. I would expect this anger to continue into the next provincial election.

The thing about a carbon tax is that it does absolutely nothing to reduce carbon emissions. It does however have its most severe impact on those at the lowest end of the economic spectrum, the ones who, by necessity, already have the lowest carbon foot print. Idiotic idea all around even if you worship at the Al Gore alter of climate religion.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Guess PM Selfie is too busy being a narcissistie to come up with any of his own ideas...

Kelly McParland: Trudeau confounds provinces with Conservative policies in Liberal clothing



> I’m beginning to think Justin Trudeau’s government would be nowhere without Stephen Harper’s help.
> 
> The Liberals have already adopted so many of the former Conservative government’s positions, a suspicious mind might suspect last year’s election was all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy to hold onto Tory policies, but repackage them under a much friendlier face.
> 
> The Liberals, like the Tories, have concluded that greater transparency is not such a great thing: at the moment they’re being criticized for holding just three technical briefings on Canada’s fight against ISIL since the election last year. The Tories held 12 in their last year in power. The Liberals have likewise decided that a 3% annual increase in healthcare transfers to the provinces is plenty, just as the Tories decreed; that the Conservative target on emission reductions was perfectly fine; that the UN’s declaration on the rights of aboriginals is “unworkable” in Canada; that welcoming refugees involves more than just turning up at the airport for a photo op; that developing Canada’s resources is necessary, even if it offends activists and some native communities; that regional claims on Supreme Court seats need to be honoured; and that repairing the centuries-old relations with aboriginal communities is a lot harder than a few well-meaning speeches.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Guess PM Selfie is too busy being a narcissistie to come up with any of his own ideas...
> 
> Kelly McParland: Trudeau confounds provinces with Conservative policies in Liberal clothing


Yep it's the same puppeteers, different puppets.


----------



## FeXL

Hydro One gets failing grade



> Dear Hydro One:
> 
> In light of your current campaign to send report cards to your customers about how good or bad they are at using electricity, we thought we would send a report card to you on behalf of your customers.
> 
> I’m afraid it’s not very good news.
> 
> ...
> 
> So we’ll give you an “F” for your performance up to the end of last year, and an ‘Incomplete’ on this year’s assignments and all future ones.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Hydro One customers


----------



## FeXL

Further on Ontario's electrical boondoggle.

Abitibi Consolidated to close in Kenora 360 loss jobs, company cited ON's high energy costs as one reasons for closing mill.

Coming soon to Wild Rose country...


----------



## Macfury

NO! Wynne says businesses are flocking to Ontario because they love our infrastructure!!!! 



FeXL said:


> Further on Ontario's electrical boondoggle.
> 
> Abitibi Consolidated to close in Kenora 360 loss jobs, company cited ON's high energy costs as one reasons for closing mill.
> 
> Coming soon to Wild Rose country...


----------



## FeXL

Nice work, if you can get it...

RCMP probes B.C.'s Shuswap First Nation finances



> The RCMP is investigating the finances of a tiny B.C. First Nation band that were used to enrich members of a single family to the tune of $4.2 million over three-and-a-half years, according to a forensic audit obtained this week by Postmedia News.
> 
> The Shuswap First Nation’s transfers to the family, as well as additional funding for trips to Las Vegas and Cuba, ended in November of 2014 when the family was voted out of office following Postmedia’s disclosure of the family’s lavish salaries.


----------



## FeXL

Curious, the lack of comment around here from the left on the Monsef situation.

Monsef visit to Iran raises questions



> Liberal MP Maryam Monsef tried to move back to Afghanistan in 2014. Instead she visited Iran where she was encouraged to run for office here in Canada.
> 
> This is according to a French-language profile in Le Devoir written well before it was revealed Monsef was born in Iran, not Afghanistan as she claims she’s always believed.
> 
> In the story, Monsef says she couldn’t enter Afghanistan because “it was not safe”. Then once in Iran, she says, she worked with Afghan refugees and was “encouraged to enter politics” in Canada.
> 
> *This visit to Iran – a country with incredibly strict entry and exit rules - raises serious red flags, according to immigration experts and some in the Iranian community.*


M'bold.

More:



> According to another source, with close ties to the Persian community in Toronto, it’s very unlikely that the Islamic Republic of Iran would grant a tourist visa to a single woman travelling on a Canadian passport.


Questions, questions...


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Wow whatever the PM is smoking is a good deal stronger than Mary Jane.
> 
> Let's be brutal. His carbon tax is a below the belt measure aimed at the crotch of Alberta and Albertans recognize it as such.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-predicts-liberals-beat-odds-003457082.htm



Yep that stuff he's on is a real mind bender. Proof in the pudding.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/federal-conservatives-looking-hold-seat-080003169.html



> Conservative Glen Motz, a retired Medicine Hat police officer, cruised to an easy victory as votes were counted Monday night.
> 
> With more two-thirds of the polls reporting and Motz with more 68 per cent of the votes at around 10 p.m., Liberal candidate Stan Sakamoto offered his congratulations in person at Motz's campaign headquarters.


----------



## FeXL

Pretty much as I figgered.

I passed through portions of the riding a few times in the past month or so. Only signs I saw were the Conservatives, Liberals & CHP.

What strikes me more than anything is that the Federal/Provincial NDP's rec'd barely more votes than the Rhino & Libertarian parties, of which I didn't even know existed. And, the CHP doubled the NDP.

Enjoy your time, Rachel. This is indeed a harbinger of things to come...


----------



## FeXL

No surprises here, especially from our state broadcaster...

Canadian Media fail to Register Magnitude of O’Keefe Videos Revealing DNC and Clinton Campaign’s Dirty Tactics and Upcoming Revelations



> The self-described “mudraker” and “guerrilla journalist” James O’Keefe’s Project Veritas videos released on Monday and Tuesday reveal that Democratic operatives were engaged in training and paying instigators to incite violence at Trump rallies as well as discussing tactics for committing massive voter fraud. The videos have garnered a combined eight-and-a-half million views on YouTube.
> 
> Reading articles from the CBC, iPolitics, and The Globe and Mail (National Post and The Toronto Star have failed to even report the story in any substantive way) the reporting mainly focused on portraying O’Keefe as a “conservative activist”, his conviction for invasion of privacy for attempting to wiretap a Democratic senator’s phone, questioning the legitimacy of the videos’ edits, and downplaying the role the DNC and Clinton’s campaign appear to have played in the dirty and likely illegal activities.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Sauce for the Pompadour.

Trudeau greeted by heckles, jeers at youth labour forum



> Dozens of delegates at a youth labour forum turned their backs Tuesday on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, using body language to express their frustrations with everything from global warming to so-called precarious work.
> 
> As Trudeau began taking questions from two of the forum’s hosts, some delegates began to heckle and jeer while several rows of young people turned to face the back of the room, *prompting harsh words from the prime minister himself.*


M'bold.

Harsh words? From the Hairdo?

C'mon. Justin. All they needed was a hug...


----------



## SINC

The Doo had better get used to it, I suspect he will face more and more of this as his term progresses and Canada falls into complete recession due to his spending policies.


----------



## FeXL

The jokes just write themselves...

Taxpayers paid $1.9 million for city workers' erectile dysfunction 



> Need a “little blue pill” to fire up your love life?
> 
> A City of Toronto employee might be your best bet to score some erectile dysfunction meds. According to a new report from the city’s auditor general, Toronto’s municipal workers and their dependents claimed and were reimbursed for $1.9 million worth of drugs like Viagra and Cialis in 2015.


I had no idea there were so many limp dicks in the public sector...


----------



## FeXL

Canada’s green agenda is having Soviet-style repercussions



> It’s hard to think of a greater public policy failure in recent Canadian political history than the rise of energy poverty.
> 
> Ontario premiers Dalton McGuinty and Kathleen Wynne, via their 2009 Green Energy Act and other poor decisions, have pushed many of the people they govern into dire financial straits thanks to their activist agendas.
> 
> “They live as if it’s Cold War Russia,” Miranda from Toronto told me during a phone conversation about her parent’s energy woes. “They use a pellet stove and propane heating. They put construction-style plastic on the windows and extra insulation.”
> 
> “They’re considering using food banks this winter,” she said. “I work in international development in third world countries and I’m starting to see the stuff here that I’m seeing there.”


And the Hairdo's Carbon Tax ain't gonna make this any better.


----------



## Aurora

I heard that Trump had a viagra failure and started screaming about erection fraud.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Aurora said:


> I heard that Trump had a viagra failure and started screaming about erection fraud.




Bwahahahahahahaha!! 


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## FeXL

Sorry, MF. You were _this_ close...

Electricity system operator reports $80 million loss after accounting change



> Ontario’s efforts to ease the upward pressure on electricity rates has been dealt a setback by a change in accounting practices.
> 
> In the government’s public accounts for 2015-16, the Independent Electricity System Operator reported a “previously unrecognized actuarial loss and past service costs” of just over $80 million.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Monsef.

Monsef said she wanted to keep Iran trip 'hush-hush'



> Despite finally being open about it on Tuesday, Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef wanted to keep her recent trip to Iran and Afghanistan “hush-hush,” according to an interview she did after returning to Canada in 2014.


“hush-hush”? Hmmm...

An older link:

Trudeau may change law to protect Monsef 



> The Trudeau Liberals have spun themselves into a corner when it comes to Maryam Monsef.
> 
> It now looks as if Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is willing to change Canada’s citizenship and immigration laws to protect one of his own.


Why have they spun themselves into a corner?

The Maryam Monsef double standard



> The Trudeau government actively revokes citizenship from people who provide false info on their applications. Now the question is whether democratic reform minister Maryam Monsef is going to receive the same treatment if it turns out her citizenship application contained false information.
> 
> The Peterborough Liberal MP’s recent revelation that she was born in Iran not Afghanistan, and that her mother had misrepresented the truth, could have serious legal consequences.
> 
> Canada’s longstanding immigration law states that a child’s citizenship can be revoked if the child’s parent provides false information to Canadian officials. *There have been many similar cases of citizenship revocation based on false information provided by a parent.*


M'bold.

Case in point:

Case of Concordia student facing loss of citizenship has ‘compelling parallels’ to Monsef situation: lawyer



> A 19-year-old Concordia University student has been told she will be stripped of her Canadian identity, a decade after the woman’s mother allegedly made misrepresentations when applying for their citizenship.
> 
> The case has “compelling parallels” to the situation involving Canada’s Minister of Democratic Institutions, Maryam Monsef, according the student’s lawyer. She wonders if government authorities will investigate Monsef’s family history and apply the law with the same force and vigour as it did with her client.


Bets, anyone? Not a chance the Hairdo will burn one of his own...


----------



## SINC

And now more of the trips of the Hair Doo's mistake. Religion eh? Just what we need.

Monsef travelled to Iran on religious pilgrimage


----------



## SINC

And about time to rid ourselves of Turdreau's bad choice. 

A file?s been opened on Monsef, sources say | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## CubaMark

*Highlights of Bill Morneau's fall economic statement*

Some highlights from Tuesday's economic statement, delivered in the House of Commons by federal Finance Minister Bill Morneau:


The deficit for 2016-17 is expected to be $25.1 billion, but that does not include a rainy day contingency fund. In last spring's budget, the government projected a $29.4-billion deficit, but that number included a $6-billion reserve.
The deficit is gradually expected to shrink over the coming five years to $14.6 billion in 2021-2022, not including any provisions set aside for a rainy day. There is no projection to balance the budget.
Over five years, the government will add a total of $31.8 billion more to deficits than was expected in the last budget, mostly because of changes to expectations for the economy.
The debt burden — the size of the federal debt as a percentage of gross domestic product — will slowly slide to 30.4 per cent in 2021-22 from 31.8 per cent in 2016-17.
The government will set up a Canada Infrastructure Bank with seed capital of $35 billion. Of that, $15 billion will be taken from the $60 billion in existing funds set aside for infrastructure and another $20 billion will be financed and booked as equity or debt so as not to affect the government's bottom line.
The government will adopt a global skills strategy that will speed up work permits and visas for foreign workers.
The government will create a new Invest in Canada Hub to attract foreign investment. It will also relax foreign investment restrictions somewhat — revising national security rules and moving the threshold for reviewing foreign takeovers to $1 billion starting in 2017, two years ahead of schedule.
The parliamentary budget officer will become accountable only to Parliament, with all the privileges that entails, rather than the Library of Parliament.
The chief statistician will be granted more independence.
The House of Commons' board of internal economy, which adjudicates disputes, sets office budgets and polices the expenses of MPs, will conduct its business publicly for the first time.

(More at: CBC)​


----------



## SINC

This is insane and totally out of control. Turdreau economics.


----------



## SINC

Ditto for Alberta.

The coming Trudeau carbon tax is going to hurt


----------



## eMacMan

Hardly the exemplary behaviour we should be demanding of our police forces. More than an adequate illustration as to why Bill C-51 should be repealed forthwith. Given the powers that exist under Bill C-51 police forces will abuse those powers for reasons that have no relation whatsoever to national security or preventing terrorism.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/10/31/montreal-police-spied-on-la-presse-journalist.html


----------



## macintosh doctor

SINC said:


> This is insane and totally out of control. Turdreau economics.


we will be decimated financially by mid 2017..


----------



## SINC

The Liberal party of Canada have a plan. They can now spend like never before and then unceremoniously dump Turdreau as leader and a buffoon and blame it all on him in four years and try for a second term to clean up his mess with a new buffoon at the helm.


----------



## SINC

Turdeau is full of it:

Trudeau's defence of Monsef gets the facts wrong | Opinion | Toronto Sun


----------



## SINC

This is scary.

Minister in charge of electoral reform admits she and Trudeau have ‘preference’ on new voting system | National Post


----------



## SINC

Yep, and now we have Turdeau II in charge.

David Frum: The disastrous legacy of Pierre Trudeau


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Yep, and now we have Turdeau II in charge.
> 
> David Frum: The disastrous legacy of Pierre Trudeau


And John English's side of the debate? The ROM has no transcript available. Frum — former Presidential speechwriter for George W. Bush and another neoliberal con-man — wins only in getting his side of it "out there" first.

From the Macdonald-Laurier Institute's website, which also published Frum's piece, is this lovely rebuttle:

*Kob*y says on: 
October 6, 2011 at 6:05 pm

_*Frum's article is littered with factual errors and non-sequiturs.*_

For example,

1) Frum claims that commodity prices were on the rise when Trudeau took over. They were not. They spiked 5 years later and far from being good for Canada they pushed us into recession.

2) Frum claims that Trudeau gutted the military. However, Trudeau kept military spending at roughly the same percentage of GDP as when he started. Furthermore, as the economy grew during that time, that meant military spending in real dollars went up.

3) Leaving aside the fact that two thirds of Canada's debt accumulated under Brian Mulroney, when the Liberals were defeated in 1979 the debt to GDP ratio was 16% and the debt in inflation adjusted dollars was the same as what it was 1961! For his first 7 years as PM, the debt shrank as % of GDP and because of inflation actually shrank in real dollars.

4) The notion that the recession of 1981 1982 was brought on by Trudeau's fiscal policies is absurd. The recession in the US and Canada was partially a self inflicted wound yes. However, the cause was monetary policy and not fiscal policy. Ever since the the disbanding of Bretton Woods and the 1973 OPEC oil crisis, stagflation had plagued every Western economy. At the beginning of the 1980s, the US Fed chairperson Paul Vocker, with prospect of another energy Crisis looming over the economy, decided to do something about it. He declared a war on inflation. The Bank of Canada followed suit. Both the BOC and the Fed purposely drove the economy into a deep recession by greatly increasing interest rates. An example should put things into perspective. In July 25th 1980 interest rates stood at already high 11%; on December 16th 1980 the US Fed had raised them to 21.5%. US policy coupled with surging oil prices brought about by the Iran Iraq war resulted in a spike in inflation in Canada and so the BOC responded in kind. In Canada interest rates reached a high of 23%! Interest rates were no where near as high under Mulroney.

The war on inflation was won, but it came at a terrible cost. Sky rocketing interest rates meant that the amount of money used to finance the debt went through the roof, the spike in unemployment greatly reduced government revenues and unemployment insurance claims put further stress on government coffers. Furthermore, the quick success of the BOC's efforts meant that Canada's debt to GDP ratio went up at much faster rate than it would have had inflation remained high for a longer period of time. By the time Mulroney took over in Sept 1984 inflation had sank to 3.7% from a high 12.9% in May 1981, but interest rates, remained sky high for considerably longer. As a result, Canada was not able to inflate away some of the value of that debt as it had after World War 2 and for part of the 1970s.

5) Frum claims that Trudeau increased federal spending threefold between 1969 and 1979. He did indeed do just that, but the figure Frum cites is not adjusted for a decade of record inflation, indexed to population or GDP growth. In other words, it is meaningless. No one, except an utter armature or someone wishing to advance a political agenda irrespective of the truth, would make, for example, a meal out of the fact that federal expenditures were 10 times higher in 2000 than in 1970. What counts is how much federal spending increased as percentage of GDP. And when you factor out the amount of money devoted to debt servicing -- which went up three fold between 1975 and 1995 -- the amount of Federal spending as percentage of GDP remained virtually unchanged between 1959 and 1989. Where there was a marked increase in spending during this time was at the provincial level.

6) Frum makes a meal out of the fact that Trudeau introduced wage and price controls. However, neglates to mention that these policies were copied from Progressive Conservative leader Robert Stanfield -- "zap your frozen" -- and Republican Richard Nixon.

7) Frum implies Canada suffered much more than W. Germany the US and Britain during the 1981 1982 recession. This wrong. Unemployment, for example, in the US nearly doubled and stayed at 10% for much of 1981 and 1982. As for West Germany and Britain, unemployment doubled in W. Germany in 1981 and unemployment in Britain was above what it was in Canada and remained above 10% until 1988.

8) Frum is right in saying that Trudeau alienated "the West", but it is absurd to say Alberta was ever on verge of separting. Furthermore, however much Trudeau alienated the West, Mulroney proved 10 worse. Indeed, while Liberal seat totals in the west went from 27 in 1968 down to 2 in 1980, a much more telling figure is the fact that the Torries went from 54 seats West of Ontario, Western Canada being their traditional base of support, in 1984 to 0 in 1993.​


----------



## SINC

Western alienation is alive and well and being fuelled by Turdeau as each day passes. Here is a look at their new perception of country.


----------



## SINC

Oh yeah.


----------



## SINC

No words required.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on the Hairdo & Monsef.

Why the Maryam Monsef case matters 



> Maryam Monsef was born in Iran, not Afghanistan as she once claimed.
> 
> Most Canadians have now heard about this story, and most fall into two broad categories.
> 
> Either they are sympathetic to Monsef’s story, believe she is the victim of a tragic childhood in war-torn Afghanistan, and consider her birthplace controversy another iteration of the hardships of being a refugee.
> 
> Or, they are skeptical of Monsef’s story, concerned about the legal implications for a person whose citizenship application is likely to have contained false information, eager for the law to be applied equally and worried about how a person can reach a top position of power in the government without basic facts about their life coming out.


Like the author, I fall into the latter category.

Justin Trudeau defends Maryam Monsef over nationality flap



> People who are criticizing the federal minister of democratic institutions in a flap over her country of birth are playing political games, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Thursday.


Nope. Just looking for the law to be applied equally.

Trudeau’s defence of Monsef gets the facts wrong 



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau finally addressed the controversy surrounding the birthplace and citizenship of his Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef.
> 
> Not surprisingly, Trudeau defended Monsef and claimed on Thursday her critics were “spreading misinformation.”
> 
> *In his remarks, Trudeau made four key points about Monsef’s case. Two of his claims were not relevant to her case, one was flat out incorrect and one even contradicted his defence of his star minister.*


M'bold.

Well, there's a surprise...

This is why the Monsef case is significant, prime minister



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau seems to be having trouble understanding what the Maryam Monsef controversy is about.
> 
> This week, he blamed it on unnamed people who are “spreading misinformation” and “trying to torque up an issue.”
> 
> Since that’s nonsense, let’s help our PM understand what it’s about.
> 
> *It’s about equality before the law.*


M'bold.

Just like south of 49: When the left does it, it's okey-dokey.

Deport her lying butt, just like you've already done with other people who lied on their application...


----------



## FeXL

A billion plus bucks a year...

CBC threatens podcast app makers, argues that RSS readers violate copyright



> In a move of breathtaking, lawless ignorance, the CBC has begun to send legal threats to podcast app-makers, arguing that making an app that pulls down public RSS feeds is a "commercial use" and a violation of the public broadcaster's copyrights.
> 
> ...
> 
> *It is an absolutely insane idea, and as legally ignorant as one can imagine. It's shocking that a letter of such dangerous stupidity was sent on CBC letterhead*, signed by someone who apparently got a law degree at some point. If the CBC is right, then all browsers are presumptively unlawful.


Well, no one ever accused the Progs at CBC of being bright...


----------



## FeXL

Take heart, MF.

Most Ontario residents think Premier Kathleen Wynne should resign: Poll 



> Kathleen Wynne needs to go.
> 
> A new Mainstreet/Postmedia poll paints a grim electoral picture for the Liberals in 2018, with 58% of Ontarians insisting the premier should resign. Of Toronto respondents alone, 67% want her out and 62% in the GTA have had enough of her.
> 
> “With the next Ontario election just a little more than 18 months away, Kathleen Wynne and the Ontario Liberals continue to plumb new depths as they now trail both the Patrick Brown-led PCs and the Andrea Horwath-led NDP,” said Quito Maggi, president of Mainstreet Research.


----------



## FeXL

Judge blasts CSIS for not revealing secret program that has been illegally keeping metadata since 2006



> A previously unknown unit of Canada’s intelligence service has been illegally keeping data unrelated to national security threats, the Federal Court disclosed Thursday.
> 
> In a hard-hitting ruling that was partly blacked out, Justice Simon Noel rebuked the Canadian Security Intelligence Service for not telling the court about a secret metadata program launched in 2006.
> 
> The Operational Data Analysis Centre was unknown even to the judges who had been issuing the warrants to collect the information it mined, according to Noel’s ruling.
> 
> *While CSIS had intended to notify the court and seek its input, that never happened.*


M'bold.

Of course they did.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


>



Very possible, with the exception that Trump is more accustomed to getting something for nothing or reneging on his contracts. Ask people who have done work for him without getting paid. He's a shyster. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Prime Minister Trudeau is on hand in Sydney for the Veterans Affairs office reopening Justin Trudeau to officially reopen Sydney Veterans Affairs office - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Good to see PM Trudeau kept this promise.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

No argument.

Trudeau’s carbon price idiotic, given Trump’s election



> The surprise victory of President-elect Donald Trump Tuesday has driven home the wisdom of Harper’s policy and the foolishness of Trudeau’s.
> 
> That’s because it’s going to cost Canadians billions of dollars more than they were already going to have to pay for a national carbon pricing scheme, that is essentially nothing more than a cash grab by the provinces.
> 
> Why? Because Trump, who has called man-made climate change a hoax, not only becomes U.S. president in 71 days, the Republicans also retained control of Congress.
> 
> *That means a national carbon pricing program in the U.S., which would have been on life support even if Hillary Clinton had won, is dead on arrival.*


M'bold.

Good.

More:



> Indeed, the UN’s 2015 Paris climate treaty itself is in critical condition.


Better.


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srp7k-9oCkw&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyDsF-Gp3o

:lmao::lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Justin Trudeau invites Donald Trump to visit Canada in call that marks 'strong beginning' - Politics - CBC News

Hopefully, some good news will be exchanged between these two leaders. We shall see.


----------



## SINC

Yep. 

Trudeau?s carbon price idiotic, given Trump?s election | Opinion | Calgary Sun


----------



## FeXL

Suicide by democracy



> Muslims coming to the West talk about our diversity. In Canada my Prime Minister tells us that diversity is our most important value. Yet the people to whom he is reaching out are the very people who will not tolerate diversity.
> 
> Obama said that more Muslims have been killed by terrorism than any other group. Well, he is partially right. More Muslims have been murdered than Christians, Yezidis, Jews, agnostics, atheists. But not from terrorism. Muslims kill Muslims because they will not accept diversity amongst themselves. They will not sit together, work together, or care for the other, even when the other is one of them. Diversity in Islam? Never.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canadians need facts, not platitudes, on what carbon policies do to jobs



> When it comes to carbon pricing and green energy, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau seems to be mailing it in these days.
> 
> That is, giving us politically correct answers that have no basis in reality.
> 
> For example, in his response to questions last week on whether the election of Donald Trump as U.S. president-elect — meaning a national carbon price south of the border is as dead as a doornail — will change the PM’s climate policies.
> 
> To which Trudeau responded no, adding:
> 
> “We know that putting a price on carbon pollution is a way to improve our response to economic challenges, to create good jobs going forward and to show leadership that quite frankly the entire world is looking for, along with the solutions that go with it.” *Actually, based on real-world experience, we know nothing of the sort.*


M'bold.

Yep.


----------



## FeXL

It's my understanding that Canada's Immigration servers crashed the evening of the US election. Too many Progs looking for a way out. 

The exodus has already begun.

Meanwhile, From Canada...



> Canadian border residents say it’s not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, liberal arts majors, global-warming activists, and “green” energy proponents crossing their fields at night.
> 
> *“I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn,”* said southern Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. “He was cold, exhausted and hungry, and begged me for a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn’t have any, he left before I even got a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?”
> 
> In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. He then installed loudspeakers that blared Rush Limbaugh across the fields, but they just stuck their fingers in their ears and kept coming. *Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals just south of the border, pack them into electric cars, and drive them across the border, where they are simply left to fend for themselves after the battery dies.*
> 
> “A lot of these people are not prepared for our rugged conditions,” an Alberta border patrolman said. *“I found one carload without a single bottle of Perrier water, or any gemelli with shrimp and arugula. All they had was a nice little Napa Valley cabernet and some kale chips. When liberals are caught, they’re sent back across the border, often wailing that they fear persecution from Trump high-hairers.*
> 
> Rumors are circulating about plans being made to *build re-education camps where liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer,* study the Constitution, and find jobs that actually contribute to the economy.


Links' bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## eMacMan

This particular debacle crosses party lines. Harpoon was originally responsible, but the window dresser has also been derelict.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/employees-still-waiting-unacceptable-two-222258699.html

Obviously MPs are getting paid on time or those compensatory claims would be averaging closer to $100,000



> So far, fewer than 180 civil servants have submitted claims for out-of-pocket expenses caused by the pay problems, such as credit card or credit line interest charges, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> 
> Most claims have totalled less than $500 each, said the Treasury Board's claims office.
> Another 1,800 government employees had requested emergency pay since June, said Lemay.


----------



## SINC

Climate taxes in a nutshell:

Rex Murphy: Curb your climate change enthusiasm | National Post


----------



## eMacMan

CRA workers stressed out and anxious after restructuring news, union says - Ottawa - CBC News

First off the CRA has caused enough stress that one can hardly sympathize if their employees get a dose of their own medicine.

Having said that, this article is a great example of how pathetic news reporting has become. Forget the 5-Ws. There is one very important question that is simply not addressed: What are the changes?

I get there will be a lot of shuffling, but what are the changes causing or being caused by the shuffling?


----------



## Dr.G.

Fine words then and now. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## Macfury

Good grief. What a thing to have to wake up to.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Fine words then and now. Paix, mes amis.



Unfortunately there is a segment of the Canadian population, mostly situated in Alberta it seems, who never quite got how great this man was. They turn to the poet/scholar Stephen Harper for their inspiration. The mind boggles. Paix indeed, mon ami. 


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## Macfury

He was great alright--a great arrogant fatuous ass who mismanaged Canada through difficult times and made life harder for many. Many Ontarians hated what he was doing to the country as well. I became a firm supporter of Alberta under Trudeau's merciless attacks.

The idea of looking to a PM for inspiration is a really odd concept, though--either Trudeau or Harper.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Unfortunately there is a segment of the Canadian population, mostly situated in Alberta it seems, who never quite got how great this man was. They turn to the poet/scholar Stephen Harper for their inspiration. The mind boggles. Paix indeed, mon ami.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Unfortunately there is a segment of the Canadian population, mostly situated in Alberta it seems, who never quite got how great this man was. They turn to the poet/scholar Stephen Harper for their inspiration. The mind boggles. Paix indeed, mon ami.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are Canadians from coast to coast to coast that admired or disliked Trudeau. Still, he was an inspirational PM. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> There are Canadians from coast to coast to coast that admired or disliked Trudeau. Still, he was an inspirational PM. Paix, mon ami.


Perhaps an inspiration to you Dr. G. I was living for the day when he left office.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> He was great alright--a great arrogant fatuous ass who mismanaged Canada through difficult times and made life harder for many. Many Ontarians hated what he was doing to the country as well. I became a firm supporter of Alberta under Trudeau's merciless attacks.
> 
> The idea of looking to a PM for inspiration is a really odd concept, though--either Trudeau or Harper.


That he was! He was also very clever and had a vision that Canada and Canadians should be proud of who they are......not just a second class colony or supplier of resources. But, like all leaders he stay around too long. He, like Mr. Harper wore out his welcome. Once that happens we forget the good things and dwell on the bad.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Perhaps an inspiration to you Dr. G. I was living for the day when he left office.


OK. I looked forward to the day when I could meet him, which I did briefly for a minute or so when he was in St. John's, NL at Memorial Univ. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

However, I never protested, burned things or tossed over mailboxes because he was elected.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> However, I never protested, burned things or tossed over mailboxes because he was elected.


Good for you, mon ami. Paix. :clap:


----------



## SINC

The assault on coal has many side effects, non considered by the feds of the province. Consultation with affected communities? Nope, not a chance.

Varcoe: Communities like Hanna left in lurch as coal shutdown strategy widens | Calgary Herald

Canada's rejection of coal will clear the air but impact workers and power bills - Politics - CBC News


----------



## SINC

So it begins.

Andrew Coyne: Cracks start to show in Trudeau Liberals | National Post


----------



## SINC

Now here is a gal who understands the CBC. :clap:

Conservative leadership candidate Kellie Leitch pitches plan to scrap CBC


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Now here is a gal who understands the CBC. :clap:
> 
> Conservative leadership candidate Kellie Leitch pitches plan to scrap CBC


I used to think it would be wonderful for Leitch to win the Conservative leadership, as she is such a total wacko that no-one would ever vote a party she leads into office.

_Then came Trump_, and... all bets are off. The willingness of stupid humans to engineer their own downfall is now apparent.

With any luck, by the time there is another Federal election in Canada, the disaster south of the border will be well underway, providing Canadians with an example of what *not* to vote for.


----------



## Macfury

So far, it's been nothing but good news, CM! Hope Leitch becomes PM—if Kevin O'Leary is busy.



CubaMark said:


> I used to think it would be wonderful for Leitch to win the Conservative leadership, as she is such a total wacko that no-one would ever vote a party she leads into office.
> 
> _Then came Trump_, and... all bets are off. The willingness of stupid humans to engineer their own downfall is now apparent.
> 
> With any luck, by the time there is another Federal election in Canada, the disaster south of the border will be well underway, providing Canadians with an example of what *not* to vote for.


----------



## CubaMark

This is astounding.

The Ontario Liberal governments - beginning with Dalton McGuinty - approved, then rejected offshore wind farm projects, provoking a NAFTA challenge (which it lost) and taxpayers are now potentially on the hook for over half-a-*B*illion (with a "*B*") dollars (ignore the $28-million figure in the headline, that's just the first instalment). 

*Why Canadian taxpayers have to pay Wall Street bankers $28 million for an Ontario wind farm that never got built*

I'm not going to pull some quotes here -read it all for yourself. Truly astounding mismanagement.



:yikes:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> So far, it's been nothing but good news, CM!


What, have you become a lifetime subscriber to the _*Trump News Network*_ or something? 'Cause "good news" isn't what I've been seeing! :yikes: :lmao: :yikes:  :yikes: :-(


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> This is astounding.
> 
> The Ontario Liberal governments - beginning with Dalton McGuinty - approved, then rejected offshore wind farm projects, provoking a NAFTA challenge (which it lost) and taxpayers are now potentially on the hook for over half-a-*B*illion (with a "*B*") dollars (ignore the $28-million figure in the headline, that's just the first instalment).
> 
> *Why Canadian taxpayers have to pay Wall Street bankers $28 million for an Ontario wind farm that never got built*
> 
> I'm not going to pull some quotes here -read it all for yourself. Truly astounding mismanagement.
> 
> :yikes:


For this reason alone, we can only hope the Combover really does pull the plug on NAFTA. Don't hold your breath!

The really bad news is that CETA and TPP will make Canadians even more vulnerable to this kind of economic rape. Can't even blame it on the Harpoon or the Selfie-King as the Harpoon negotiated the new treaties and the Kid is drooling all over himself in his anxiety to sign on.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> What, have you become a lifetime subscriber to the _*Trump News Network*_ or something? 'Cause "good news" isn't what I've been seeing! :yikes: :lmao: :yikes:  :yikes: :-(


All good news for me. I'm enjoying a general feeling of optimism for the first time in seven years!


----------



## Macfury

The problem was trying to build the damned windmills in the first place. The Libs are economically incompetent.



CubaMark said:


> This is astounding.
> 
> The Ontario Liberal governments - beginning with Dalton McGuinty - approved, then rejected offshore wind farm projects, provoking a NAFTA challenge (which it lost) and taxpayers are now potentially on the hook for over half-a-*B*illion (with a "*B*") dollars (ignore the $28-million figure in the headline, that's just the first instalment).
> 
> *Why Canadian taxpayers have to pay Wall Street bankers $28 million for an Ontario wind farm that never got built*
> 
> I'm not going to pull some quotes here -read it all for yourself. Truly astounding mismanagement.
> 
> 
> 
> :yikes:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The problem was trying to build the damned windmills in the first place. The Libs are economically incompetent.


I'm not up to speed on the economic equation around the wind power plans to comment.

However... on the government's handling of the situation, it appears to be quite solidly a major f*****p by McGuinty et al. The damage multiplier is NAFTA, though in this case my criticisms of NAFTA's anti-protectionist clauses don't seem to apply: it's quite simply a matter of the Ontario government reneging on a deal.


----------



## Macfury

Feed in tariff offering big corporations massive multiples on "green" energy generation:

Boondoggle: How Ontario’s pursuit of renewable energy broke the province’s electricity system | Financial Post

Kathleen Wynne recently wept public crocodile tears over her mishandling of the electrical system.

This is no difference from the billion dollars they blew on killing the Oakville natural gas plant so they could win ONE SEAT in the provincial election.



CubaMark said:


> I'm not up to speed on the economic equation around the wind power plans to comment.
> 
> However... on the government's handling of the situation, it appears to be quite solidly a major f*****p by McGuinty et al. The damage multiplier is NAFTA, though in this case my criticisms of NAFTA's anti-protectionist clauses don't seem to apply: it's quite simply a matter of the Ontario government reneging on a deal.


----------



## SINC

Our arsehole PM Pompadour is a liar. 

The truth about Trudeau?s refugee budget numbers | Opinion | Calgary Sun


----------



## SINC

Trudeau an arse again! 

Justin Trudeau's statement on Fidel Castro's death a revisionist embarrassment | News | Edmonton Sun


----------



## SINC

Like I noted the guy is an arsehole. 

Trudeau's turn from cool to laughing stock - Macleans.ca


----------



## SINC

Make of this what you will, but the pics make one wonder????

Is Justin Trudeau The Son Of Fidel Castro? – MagaFeed


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Make of this what you will, but the pics make one wonder????
> 
> Is Justin Trudeau The Son Of Fidel Castro? – MagaFeed


Sure. If either Margaret Trudeau or Fidel Castro had access to time machines....

_Justin Trudeau was born in 1971. Castro didn’t meet Pierre or Margaret Trudeau until 1976, when the Canadian prime minister embarked on a controversial three-day state visit to Cuba._​
Justin Trudeau was born Christmas Day, 1971. He would have to have been conceived in late-March 1971 at the earliest, with some wiggle room into April.

Some folks just can't do basic math....


----------



## SINC

Well, Trudeau and Notley, idiots both, announce carbon taxes while Australia and now France scrub the idea. Yep we're idiots for electing them and taxing ourselves to death.

France to drop carbon tax plan: Les Echos | Reuters


----------



## Macfury

And Wynne does it agaim. After crying great crocodile tears about the hardship she's caused Ontarians with her "green" mismanagement of the electricity system, she's pushing for a carbon tax on natural gas used for home heating that--if approved--will raise the price from 10.65 cents per cubic metre to 14. If this doesn't throw that "progressive" jerk out of office, I don't know what will.

Just an $8-billion stealth tax on consumers, with no real benefit:

Ontario auditor general report reveals cap and trade to cost $8B in first years - Toronto | Globalnews.ca


, she's


Macfury said:


> Feed in tariff offering big corporations massive multiples on "green" energy generation:
> 
> Boondoggle: How Ontario’s pursuit of renewable energy broke the province’s electricity system | Financial Post
> 
> Kathleen Wynne recently wept public crocodile tears over her mishandling of the electrical system.
> 
> This is no difference from the billion dollars they blew on killing the Oakville natural gas plant so they could win ONE SEAT in the provincial election.


----------



## Dr.G.

Clips - Season 24: Kellie Leitch doesn’t like Stranger People (Stranger Things spoof) - This Hour Has 22 Minutes

:lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

I just find that this TV series fails to be funny no matter how hard they try. Maybe they try too hard.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I just find that this TV series fails to be funny no matter how hard they try. Maybe they try too hard.


They have their ups and downs with this crew.  Their early years were great. Some of the writing currently has been weak. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

*Context:*

Nova Scotia to close public schools as teachers take job action

...I don't see how the Province can legally do this, since the teachers are going to work according to the terms of their contract.... (do their jobs, i.e., teaching)?

Parents scramble for childcare as Nova Scotia closes schools in teacher dispute


----------



## Macfury

The teachers have been outfoxed. Their work-to-rule plan involves students being potentially unsupervised during breaks. That's how the province can do this.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

No system works without people going beyond what is strictly required of them.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> No system works without people going beyond what is strictly required of them.


I would agree. But teachers' workloads do seem to be, as we say in Mexico, _más allá_


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Context:*
> 
> Nova Scotia to close public schools as teachers take job action
> 
> ...I don't see how the Province can legally do this, since the teachers are going to work according to the terms of their contract.... (do their jobs, i.e., teaching)?
> 
> Parents scramble for childcare as Nova Scotia closes schools in teacher dispute





Macfury said:


> The teachers have been outfoxed. Their work-to-rule plan involves students being potentially unsupervised during breaks. That's how the province can do this.


The situation is being dictated by the fact that some students arrive at school early than 20 minutes before the start of the school day, and leave a bit later than 20 minutes after the school day, as well as being unsupervised during various periods in the day (e.g., recess, lunch, etc). Their safety if the main concern. So, teachers have to show up 20 minutes before the start of school, stay 20 minutes after the school day ends, and get paid for the day.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


>


Students may be out of school all week as teacher bill is debated - Nova Scotia - CBC News


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> I would agree. But teachers' workloads do seem to be, as we say in Mexico, _más allá_



That's the thing. With teaching, you can't just do what you're paid for or work only the hours that you're providing instruction. Not if you want to keep your job anyway. There is at minimum another two or three hours per day of homework if you're a full-time teacher, more if you're new or if you teach English and have to mark essays. This is not paid time since it can vary from person to person, but it is certainly required. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's the thing. With teaching, you can't just do what you're paid for or work only the hours that you're providing instruction. Not if you want to keep your job anyway. There is at minimum another two or three hours per day of homework if you're a full-time teacher, more if you're new or if you teach English and have to mark essays. This is not paid time since it can vary from person to person, but it is certainly required.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When I was a public school teacher, I would tell people that I do not have a 9AM to 3PM job. I never did have a summer off in that I was either going to summer school to upgrade my degree or teaching summer school. What I resented the most were those teachers who did see their job as a 9-3 job with summer off. These were the teachers who gave the teaching profession a bad reputation. The same goes for university profs as well. I am a firm believer in "those who can had better be our teachers and those teachers who can't teach should find a new profession". Paix, mes amid.


----------



## heavyall

You can't get away with "just your job" in any job. Lots of people put in unpaid overtime, lots of people do tasks that are not strictly part of their job description. That just how it goes if you care even a little bit about the job you do. 

Anyone who pulls a "work to rule" stunt in any job should be fired, union or not, contract or not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> They have their ups and downs with this crew. Their early years were great. Some of the writing currently has been weak. Paix, mon ami.



Have you seen Kim's Convenience? Tuesdays on CBC. Very charming and witty show if you ask me. Centred around a Korean convenience story owner and his family. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

That makes you a decent worker. I get paid the same for each contract I complete, but if it takes me 30% longer to complete one to my satisfaction, I just eat it up as unpaid.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That's the thing. With teaching, you can't just do what you're paid for or work only the hours that you're providing instruction. Not if you want to keep your job anyway. There is at minimum another two or three hours per day of homework if you're a full-time teacher, more if you're new or if you teach English and have to mark essays. This is not paid time since it can vary from person to person, but it is certainly required.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Have you seen Kim's Convenience? Tuesdays on CBC. Very charming and witty show if you ask me. Centred around a Korean convenience story owner and his family.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, it is one of the few shows I make sure to watch each week. I am really into "Designated Survivor" and "Timeless" as well. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That makes you a decent worker. I get paid the same for each contract I complete, but if it takes me 30% longer to complete one to my satisfaction, I just eat it up as unpaid.


This is called being a professional. Kudos, mon ami. This is one reason why communism never succeeded. There is no such thing as a "Workers' Paradise". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

How about we talk about, I mean, LYAO at, the Progs concept of talking about electoral "reform".

Liberal’s online democracy survey is an insult



> The Liberals have set up an online survey to learn what you think about electoral reform. They really want to know your views on the topic. They care so much that they’re using your tax money to mail out 15 million postcards directing you to complete the survey at MyDemocracy.ca.
> 
> There’s one major problem with it, though. I’ve just done the whole thing and am left scratching my head at this process. It never, not when I did it, asks what you actually think about electoral reform. Yes, you read that correctly. The electoral reform survey doesn’t ask your opinion on electoral reform.
> 
> *It asks a whole lot of questions that skirt around the general issue. But it doesn’t ever actually get to the point and outright ask the question that really matters.*


M'bold.

In typical lefty fashion, they assume it's already a _fait accompli_ & merely want to know what you want your $h!t sandwich wrapped in...

Fortunately, there are a few people who have not yet imbibed the kool-aid.

Liberal electoral reform survey roundly mocked online



> *“The first rule of engagement, the Liberals should learn, is not to treat Canadians like they’re stupid,” said NDP democratic reform critic Nathan Cullen in the Commons today, pointing to the barrage of tweets ridiculing the initiative.*
> 
> Conservative democratic reform critic Scott Reid also joined in, likening the survey to a “dating website designed by Fidel Castro.”


M'bold.

When even the Commies get it...

One from the several comments listed:



> [email protected] @cselley “Which statement do you identify most with?: I’d like to have ranked ballots OR I am a paedophile.” #rejectedERQs
> 
> — Ian Borsuk (@iancborsuk) December 5, 2016


Some choice.

And what the hell is Maryam Monsef still doing in the country? She should have had her butt tossed out months ago, like everybody else the Libs have been deporting that lied on their application. Double standards, much?

Related:

Colby Cosh: Did Maryam Monsef actually read the whole electoral reform report?



> In the stormy Thursday press conference in which mealy-mouthed Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef somehow managed to unify election reform opponents and supporters in a grand coalition against her, she at one point held up a sign with an intimidating mathematical expression on it. I think “intimidating” is a fair description. I am reasonably sure that no full-time journalist in the country knows more math than I do, but I still get a touch of nausea at the sight of a Greek letter sigma in an equation.
> 
> Despite having an undergraduate degree in science, Monsef complained that the equation she was waving around was “an incomprehensible formula” that her electoral reform committee was trying to foist on the public as a new ultimate basis for Canadian government. The Liberal committee members themselves accused their colleagues of “recommending that Canada’s electoral system be determined by the … formula.”


Rarely have politicians been accused of being smart...

Related, too:

'Words that I deeply regret': Maryam Monsef apologizes for accusations against MPs



> Minister of Democratic Institutions Maryam Monsef has apologized to MPs she suggested Thursday were shirking their duties on electoral reform.
> 
> Standing in the House of Commons on Friday, Monsef said sorry for the behaviour her opposition critics denounced as "appalling" and "a disgrace."
> 
> *"Yesterday in this House, I used words that I deeply regret," she said.*
> 
> "And if you'll allow me, I'd like to sincerely apologize to the members of this House, to Canadians and to the members of the special all-party committee on electoral reform. In no way did I intend to imply that they didn't work hard, that they didn't put in the long hours, that they didn't focus on the task at hand. Mr. Speaker, I thank them for their work."


M'bold.

How deeply? Enough to quit? Thought not...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, Freddie, coupla days back you were crowing about how Red Rachel had contributed somehow to the approval of the pipelines. That left me scratching my head 'cause I hadn't read about her contributions anywhere.

That segues me into my next post. According to this article, it was strictly The Hairdo that made the decision. I understand that she caught the first class seat to go rub against him at several podiums in the hopes that some of this news would bring back some shine to her campaign, but I'm a little unclear as to her contributions. Can you elaborate?

In the meantime:

Trudeau crunches the crude math of pipeline politics



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau holds a press conference at the National Press Theatre in Ottawa on Tuesday, Nov. 29, 2016. Trudeau is approving Kinder Morgan’s proposal to triple the capacity of its Trans Mountain pipeline from Alberta to Burnaby, B.C.— a $6.8-billion project that has sparked protests by climate change activists from coast to coast.


I jes' luvs me that photo of PM Pompadour. The two faces of The Hairdo. Brilliant... 

Hey, Justin, show us yer tits!!!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> So, Freddie, coupla days back you were crowing about how Red Rachel had contributed somehow to the approval of the pipelines. That left me scratching my head 'cause I hadn't about her contributions anywhere.


Was wondering about Freddie's claim that Trudeau could only implement this master stroke because Rachel had earned "the social license" to make it happen. He couldn't deliver a single answer about what social license had been earned.


----------



## FeXL

Agreed. Shut it down.

Senator Linda Frum: It’s time to close Elections Act foreign funding loopholes



> Despite the fact that Canadian elections have much stricter financing laws, there remains a glaring campaign finance deficiency on our side of the border.
> 
> In the U.S., only American citizens or American divisions of corporations can contribute to political campaigns or politician-aligned Political Action Committees (PACs). Canadians might naturally assume our country has similar rules.
> 
> Unfortunately that’s not the case. The current Canada Elections Act permits foreign organizations to pump untold amounts of money into the Canadian equivalent of a PAC, a “Registered Third Party.”


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> This is called being a professional. Kudos, mon ami. This is one reason why communism never succeeded. There is no such thing as a "Workers' Paradise". Paix, mon ami.



They pretend to pay, and we pretend to work. 


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----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> They pretend to pay, and we pretend to work.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As Karl Marx once said, "Work is the curse of the drinking class." Or, was that Groucho Marx who said this????


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Was wondering about Freddie's claim that Trudeau could only implement this master stroke because Rachel had earned "the social license" to make it happen. He couldn't deliver a single answer about what social license had been earned.



Why don't you go to the source of his assertion and see what she has to say? I'm sure you could find this yourself, but I'll help you out. The interview is about ten minutes. 










http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...mier-rachel-notley-s-pipeline-pitch-1.3883395


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----------



## Macfury

What does this have to do with Trudeau's decision--which incidentally angered a lot of environmentalists?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why don't you go to the source of his assertion and see what she has to say? I'm sure you could find this yourself, but I'll help you out. The interview is about ten minutes.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> How about we talk about, I mean, LYAO at, the *Progs* concept of talking about electoral "reform"......In typical *lefty* fashion, .....When even the *Commies* get it...


It's really quite funny... you're so far off on the Right-wing fringe that you think the Liberals deserve any of those labels.... 

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> It's really quite funny... you're so far off on the Right-wing fringe that you think the Liberals deserve any of those labels....
> 
> :lmao:


They're Liberals--not whack jobs!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

A little perspective perhaps. You know that maybe you've stepped over the line when even Rona Ambrose is calling you out. 



> Conservative leader Rona Ambrose calls supporters of Ezra Levant's Rebel Media 'idiots'
> 
> 
> Now we have a basket of idiots too?
> 
> Interim Conservative leader Rona Ambrose had some choice words for supporters of Ezra Levant's Rebel Media this week – and one of the words she chose was "idiots."
> 
> The alt-right website bussed their supporters to a rally at the Alberta Legislature last week, and as you probably already guessed, everything spiraled out of control.
> 
> One of Levant's guest speakers called for cyber attacks on the Government of Alberta, grown men waved signs comparing carbon pricing to "sodomy" in the presence of children and then Rebel Media's angry mob chanted "lock her up" during a speech by Conservative leadership candidate Chris Alexander.
> 
> Asked for her reaction by reporters in Ottawa, Ambrose called Rebel Media's chanting supporters "people acting like idiots":
> 
> "It's not only unoriginal, it's completely inappropriate. We don't lock people up in Canada."
> Not only will that one sting, things might get a little awkward.
> 
> Following the event, Levant grasped at comments by Maclean's columnist Scott Gilmore, who compared Alexander's choice to attend Rebel Media's rally to lying "down with pigs":
> 
> Gilmore is a "long-time conservative" who also happens to be married to federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna.
> 
> So it didn't take long for Levant to connect the dots and tell his supporters Trudeau's Liberals also think his supporters are "pigs":
> 
> Guess we can expect Levant to e-mail his supporters telling them Ambrose's Conservatives think they're "idiots" too?
> 
> But Ambrose and Gilmore aren't alone – both Wildrose leader Brian Jean and PC leadership candidate Jason Kenney turned their backs on Rebel Media's rally following the event.
> 
> Kenney called Levant's chanting crowd "ridiculous" and "offensive." And Jean (who spoke at the rally alongside Levant) joined Kenney in denouncing their chants and profane signs, adding that if Rebel Media's supporters can't behave themselves, he wishes they "would just stay at home."
> 
> Federal Conservative leadership candidates came down hard on Rebel Media's rally too.
> 
> In denouncing the chants, Deepak Obhrai said he was concerned by the "intolerance creeping into Canadian politics," while fellow leadership candidate Michael Chong said the behaviour of the crowd at the Rebel Media rally was "worthy of a dictatorship."
> 
> Chong ripped Levant and Rebel Media because the chants were "not denounced by rally organizers," and called on conservative leaders to "stand up against language and behaviour that undermines the rule of law and legitimacy of our political system."
> 
> Since the Conservative leadership race began, seven out of 14 leadership candidates have made appearances on Levant's website.
> 
> UPDATE: Following publication of this story, Conservative leadership candidate Brad Trost demanded Ambrose apologize to Rebel Media's supporters.
> 
> Trost tweeted his regret that he could not "be there w my friend" Chris Alexander and said he "would've chanted w them."
> 
> Alexander previously stated he was "mortified" by the crowd's chants.


https://www.pressprogress.ca/conser..._supporters_of_ezra_levant_rebel_media_idiots


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----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> A little perspective perhaps. You know that maybe you've stepped over the line when even Rona Ambrose is calling you out.



Since when is being called out by Rona Ambrose something to be taken seriously?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Since when is being called out by Rona Ambrose something to be taken seriously?



I'm sorry. Is she no longer the interim leader of the Conservative Party of Canada? 


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## Macfury

I believe you're right.


----------



## heavyall

Freddie_Biff said:


> I'm sorry. Is she no longer the interim leader of the Conservative Party of Canada?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interim. Very specifically, not the actual leader. You give the placeholder to people NOT considered leadership material. No one gave a crap what Bill Graham or Nycole Turmel had to say either.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

heavyall said:


> Interim. Very specifically, not the actual leader. You give the placeholder to people NOT considered leadership material. No one gave a crap what Bill Graham or Nycole Turmel had to say either.



But surely you'll concede that she currently speaks on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada, until a suitable replacement can be found—which at this rate could take a very very long time. 


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----------



## Freddie_Biff

heavyall said:


> Interim. Very specifically, not the actual leader. You give the placeholder to people NOT considered leadership material. No one gave a crap what Bill Graham or Nycole Turmel had to say either.



But surely you'll concede that she currently speaks on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada, until a suitable replacement can be found—which at this rate could take a very very long time.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> But surely you'll concede that she currently speaks on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada, until a suitable replacement can be found—which at this rate could take a very very long time.


Perhaps she does, but it doesn't mean anything to me. The party leader needs to be tougher than that to earn my endorsement/respect.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Perhaps she does, but it doesn't mean anything to me. The party leader needs to be tougher than that to earn my endorsement/respect.


I know we don't vote for our leader, but I really like the U.S. Primary approach. I think the parties should run primary debates and run them along the whole country. Voters, regardless of party, could then register to vote for the leader. In this way the whole voting population who is interested gets to see what the potential leader. Much better than cronies voting for their buddies.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> I know we don't vote for our leader, but I really like the U.S. Primary approach. I think the parties should run primary debates and run them along the whole country. Voters, regardless of party, could then register to vote for the leader. In this way the whole voting population who is interested gets to see what the potential leader. Much better than cronies voting for their buddies.



This all sounds very fair and reasonable to me. However, we seem to have sidestepped the question of why some conservatives are calling other conservatives "idiots." Might be something worth considering. 


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## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> This all sounds very fair and reasonable to me. However, we seem to have sidestepped the question of why some conservatives are calling other conservatives "idiots." Might be something worth considering.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Again, I think this is part of the electioneering process. Very few voters follow the breadth of the candidate's policy position past to see the real person. The current crew is very much jumping on the populist band wagon.....trying to Trump each other so to speak. I think a primary approach would certainly weed out the wannabes.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> ...However, we seem to have sidestepped the question of why some conservatives are calling other conservatives "idiots." Might be something worth considering.


I thought telling a truth was not permitted by any of the major parties. I am sure once a new leader is anointed, these miscreants will be dealt with quite harshly.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> I thought telling a truth was not permitted by any of the major parties. I am sure once a new leader is anointed, these miscreants will be dealt with quite harshly.



I like the truthiness aspect now and again. 


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## Macfury

Some politicians represent the "establishment" far more than others. Rona is very establishment. Like Justin Trudeau, she loves politics more than Canada.



Freddie_Biff said:


> This all sounds very fair and reasonable to me. However, we seem to have sidestepped the question of why some conservatives are calling other conservatives "idiots." Might be something worth considering.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Some politicians represent the "establishment" far more than others. Rona is very establishment. Like Justin Trudeau, she loves politics more than Canada.



Still, she is the interim leader of the federal Conservative Party. You should not discount her opinion so quickly just because she's interim, establishment or because she's a woman. There is still a sharp divide among conservatives about what exactly they're supposed to represent. 


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## FeXL

Not if they were truly conservative...



Freddie_Biff said:


> There is still a sharp divide among conservatives about what exactly they're supposed to represent.


----------



## FeXL

They can have it. Deal is, they gotta take The Hairdo, too...


Algonquin band’s lawsuit declares ownership of Parliament Hill amid stalled land claim talks



> An Algonquin band in western Quebec is suing the federal government saying it owns Parliament Hill.
> 
> The Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg, an Algonquin band based in Maniwaki, Que., filed suit Wednesday in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice seeking an order that it is the title holder to what it calls the Kichi Sibi Lands, land that includes the Parliament buildings and the Supreme Court.
> 
> Kitigan Zibi’s chief and council filed the suit in frustration at the slow pace of negotiations with the federal government over what even Liberal government ministers in the House of Commons frequently acknowledge is Algonquin territory.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Not if they were truly conservative...



See, that's the thing. Conservative has about as many shades of meaning as Progressive does these days. How exactly would you define a Conservative in today's Canada? 


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----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

PM Trudeau “skipped work” 60 percent of the time in his first year



> According to analysis conducted by Huffington Post’s Ottawa Bureau Chief Althia Raj, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau skipped nearly 60 per cent of all Question Periods in his first year, a worse attendance record than former Prime Minister Stephen Harper who skipped 46 per cent in his first year in a majority mandate. *According to Raj, Trudeau didn’t have a valid excuse for “failing to show up for work” one third of the missed time.*


M'bold.

What? Cleaning out your bong doesn't qualify?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Dion: We'll use economic levers to push Trump on climate change



> Dion made it clear that Canada will try to make a business case for the environment to engage the billionaire, deal-making businessman who will soon occupy the White House.
> 
> “A point we will make is how much the environment and the economy are going together now,” Dion said. “We have to think about jobs when we fight climate change.
> 
> “It’s a point we’ll make with the new U.S. administration. It’s a way to engage them.”


----------



## heavyall

Freddie_Biff said:


> But surely you'll concede that she currently speaks on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada, .


Only technically. She's speaks when it's the leader of the opposition's turn in the house, sure. But what she says is not representative of the members of the Conservative party one way or the other. Someone has to keep the seat warm. That's as deep as it goes.


----------



## Macfury

When Trump dumps so-called climate change regulations, US productivity will by-pass Canada's by an even greater degree. This idea that "green energy" creates jobs is such a crock. If you sat 1,000 people on bicycles to pump water you would create 1,000 jobs--and increase the price of water 100-fold.



FeXL said:


> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> Dion: We'll use economic levers to push Trump on climate change


----------



## heavyall

Freddie_Biff said:


> There is still a sharp divide among conservatives about what exactly they're supposed to represent.


Not really. There are a few confused liberals who prefer the colour blue, but the party is in sync on most issues. You do not see fighting at the EDA meetings, people are in one accord as to what they want to see, even if they disagree about who is the best choice to bring it forward.

If there is any discord, it's with respect to how moderate of a face to show the media. Some want to tread very lightly, others want to be really bold. Given how well the bold approach has been working for various right of centre leaders around the world in the last couple of years, I suspect that approach will win out.


----------



## FeXL

Today, in this man's Canuckistan?

Conservative largely means CINO...



Freddie_Biff said:


> How exactly would you define a Conservative in today's Canada?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Of course they should!

Tell ya what: Why don't we just open it up to worldwide input, while we're at it?

Trudeau government says non-citizens should have say in electoral reform



> In the latest twist to its electoral reform narrative, the Trudeau government said Thursday that people who are not Canadian citizens — and therefore can’t vote — should have a say in the process of changing how it’s done.
> 
> Liberal MP Kevin Lamoureaux, parliamentary secretary to Government House Leader Bardish Chagger, argued in a debate in the House that non-Canadian citizens should be encouraged to use the government’s electoral reform consultation website, Mydemocracy.ca.


More:



> [Lamoureaux] was answering a question from the NDP’s democratic reform critic, Nathan Cullen. Cullen had suggested that the website, by not asking users if they’re Canadian citizens and can actually vote in Canadian elections, had invited participation from non-citizens, undermining its credibility.


When even the NDP begin to notice...


----------



## FeXL

Well, this could be interesting...

Kevin O'Leary may announce intentions on Tory leadership run Monday: Sources



> Kevin O'Leary is expected to announce his intentions on his bid for the federal Conservative leadership on Monday, sources confirm.
> 
> The 62-year-old businessman-turned-reality-star is expected to tell Conservative members of parliament during a meeting he's hosting over the lunch hour. However, he may not formally make an announcement until later this month.


----------



## FeXL

Well, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Will they cut off all other forms of social assistance? Welfare? EI? Will taxes go up in order to fund it? Will unemployment go up? What other effects, good or bad?

Questions, questions...

Canadian province takes major step towards universal basic income



> A Canadian province has unanimously voted in favour of trialling a universal basic income for its citiziens in partnership with the national government.
> 
> Prince Edward Island, the smallest Canadian Province, has been described as the best choice for the pilot due to its diminutive size and clear boundaries.
> 
> According to the successful bill, every citizen will receive a basic income in an attempt to reduce or "potentially eliminate poverty in the province".


Further:



> Mr Bevan Baker told [MotherCorpse]: "A universal basic income could enable the greatest unleashing of human potential ever seen."


<snort>

Or create the highest percentage of bums in the country...


----------



## Macfury

I think it will create more bums--boring Twitter "activists". It should come along with dismantling every other social program and the government administration responsible for managing those programs. It will never eliminate poverty because the definition of poverty will simply be changed.


----------



## FeXL

Can't keep 'em out...

10 Muslims trained, prayed at Montreal-area shooting range, joined jihad in Syria



> An investigation by Radio-Canada’s Enquête has uncovered the identities of a group of 10 young Quebecers who secretly joined militants in Syria to fight against the Bashar al-Assad regime.
> 
> The group was made up of friends who often gathered at a Montreal-area shooting range to practise before seven of them left for the Middle East between the summers of 2012 and 2013, Radio-Canada has learned.


Can't keep 'em in...

Screw-ups led to rapist fleeing to Pakistan 



> What a complete and utter screw-up on all fronts. And now a convicted rapist has managed to elude Canadian justice by fleeing to Pakistan.
> 
> How did this happen — especially, as it turns out, Moazzam Tariq has actually absconded once before? How is that none of the players in the justice system — from police to prosecutors — knew the Canadian permanent resident had also fled to his native Pakistan in 2010 after his arrest for dangerous driving?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I think it will create more bums--boring Twitter "activists". It should come along with dismantling every other social program and the government administration responsible for managing those programs. It will never eliminate poverty because the definition of poverty will simply be changed.


Agreed, on all 3 counts.

But watch them declare it a "stunning success" & foist it on the rest of the country...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I think it will create more bums--boring Twitter "activists". It should come along with dismantling every other social program and the government administration responsible for managing those programs. It will never eliminate poverty because the definition of poverty will simply be changed.


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e36U5MQZc5o[/ame]

Dauphin, Manitoba.

*Related:* The Town with No Income (PDF)


----------



## Macfury

A different type of society--and no solid data to determine its success. Today, I suspect it would likely turn into a vast army of Facebook-addicted citizens.



CubaMark said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e36U5MQZc5o
> 
> Dauphin, Manitoba.
> 
> *Related:* The Town with No Income (PDF)


----------



## Dr.G.

Not really a political item, but it is a Canadian success story.

Kim's Convenience fans brave the cold to meet stars of hit CBC show - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Not really a political item, but it is a Canadian success story.
> 
> 
> 
> Kim's Convenience fans brave the cold to meet stars of hit CBC show - Toronto - CBC News



I really get a kick out of this show. Very witty!


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----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> I really get a kick out of this show. Very witty!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. I also liked "Little House on the Prairie" as well. Paix, mon ami.

My main CBC viewings are the various news programs.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> I agree. I also liked "Little House on the Prairie" as well. Paix, mon ami.
> 
> 
> 
> My main CBC viewings are the various news programs.



Perhaps you meant "Mosque" as opposed to "House," mon ami. 


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----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> My main CBC viewings are the various news programs.


These are my favourite CBC viewings: CBC Exposed


----------



## Macfury

It really is a Canadian-style success story--it was rated 29th in viewership.



Dr.G. said:


> Not really a political item, but it is a Canadian success story.
> 
> Kim's Convenience fans brave the cold to meet stars of hit CBC show - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## SINC

The sooner the CBC-TV network is dismantled, the sooner the Canadian media will rid itself of a left biased broadcaster that creates the news it wants Canadians to see and hear. Let the radio arm survive on its own by selling advertising, the only wing of the CBC that stands a chance to succeed.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It really is a Canadian-style success story--it was rated 29th in viewership.



That's the problem with conservatives—no sense of ha ha. 


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----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It really is a Canadian-style success story--it was rated 29th in viewership.


That is good for a Canadian made show. It competes with US shows on other stations in the US as well as here in Canada. Glad you think that it is a success as well, mon ami. Welcome on board. Have a favorite episode? Mine was the recent Hapkido segment.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> The sooner the CBC-TV network is dismantled, the sooner the Canadian media will rid itself of a left biased broadcaster that creates the news it wants Canadians to see and hear. Let the radio arm survive on its own by selling advertising, the only wing of the CBC that stands a chance to succeed.


Well, for an additional $400 million, that can go advertising-free while keeping up the quality of their news, sports and local interest shows.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps you meant "Mosque" as opposed to "House," mon ami.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oops. Yes, that is what I meant. Mea culpa. Thanks for the correction. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> These are my favourite CBC viewings: CBC Exposed


The link did not open. Still, good to hear that you view and like certain CBC shows. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Oops. Yes, that is what I meant. Mea culpa. Thanks for the correction. Paix, mon ami.



Pas de probleme. 


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----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's the problem with conservatives—no sense of ha ha.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey. PM Harper had one of the best segments on the Rick Mercer Report when he invited Rick to stay over at 24 Sussex Drive, as well as his episodes on This Hour Has 22 Minutes with Marg, the Warrior Princess. He had more sense of humor than most PMs in my 39 years here in Canada. Not sure about PM Justin Trudeau, but I would think that he will get his chance. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Pas de probleme.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Merci, mon ami. You are most forgiving.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Hey. PM Harper had one of the best segments on the Rick Mercer Report when he invited Rick to stay over at 24 Sussex Drive, as well as his episodes on This Hour Has 22 Minutes with Marg, the Warrior Princess. He had more sense of humor than most PMs in my 39 years here in Canada. Not sure about PM Justin Trudeau, but I would think that he will get his chance. Paix, mon ami.


Yep an idiot will play to any audience and he has proven that time and again since he became PM. Hopefully Canadians will remember these stupid intervals, nay make that main stream events next election and rid ourselves of this fool.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Yep an idiot will play to any audience and he has proven that time and again since he became PM. Hopefully Canadians will remember these stupid intervals, nay make that main stream events next election and rid ourselves of this fool.


PM Harper was no idiot. I did not agree with many of his policies, but I think that his staff wanted him to "loosen up" and reach out to the average Canadian. I actually saw him as genuine and willing to play along with the joke. No other PM has done this since I have been here and watching this show. Now, the Bob Rae and Jack Layton segments on both shows were classic, but they were never PM. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Yep an idiot will play to any audience and he has proven that time and again since he became PM. Hopefully Canadians will remember these stupid intervals, nay make that main stream events next election and rid ourselves of this fool.



Hey Don, do you have like an infected toenail or something? Your gall seems more bitter than usual. 


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----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> PM Harper was no idiot. I did not agree with many of his policies, but I think that his staff wanted him to "loosen up" and reach out to the average Canadian. I actually saw him as genuine and willing to play along with the joke. No other PM has done this since I have been here and watching this show. Now, the Bob Rae and Jack Layton segments on both shows were classic, but they were never PM. Paix, mon ami.



Yes, that was an excellent image makeover, Marc. I liked Rick's response to being informed that it was bedtime: "You're not the boss of me!"


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----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yes, that was an excellent image makeover, Marc. I liked Rick's response to being informed that it was bedtime: "You're not the boss of me!"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Loved that line .................. :lmao::clap:


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey Don, do you have like an infected toenail or something? Your gall seems more bitter than usual.


No, not at all, I just recognize two politicians so far out of their element that they are slowly destroying Canada with their bizarre behaviour and policies. Trudeau and Notley, with Wynn not far behind. God save us from progs.


----------



## Macfury

Just more sophisticated tastes.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That's the problem with conservatives—no sense of ha ha.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Well, for an additional $400 million, that can go advertising-free while keeping up the quality of their news, sports and local interest shows.


That's not a tough bar to maintain. How about instead they cut their programming by half, then go advertising free?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That's not a tough bar to maintain. How about instead they cut their programming by half, then go advertising free?


Better to keep the quality and get rid of the ads. Money well spent.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> The link did not open. Still, good to hear that you view and like certain CBC shows. Paix, mon ami.


Works for me. Try copying & pasting: http://cbcexposed.blogspot.ca/

Oh, yeah, all the time...


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Better to keep the quality and get rid of the ads. Money well spent.


Problem is, I have difficulty finding the quality you speak of...


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Problem is, I have difficulty finding the quality you speak of...


Watch the shows week after week and you shall see my point. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Watch the shows week after week and you shall see my point. Paix, mon ami.


The more I watch these programs, the more my perception of their quality drops.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The more I watch these programs, the more my perception of their quality drops.


Open up your eyes and be eclectic. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Just more sophisticated tastes.



Like smokies and pilsner. 


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----------



## Macfury

I know what pilsner is--what's a smokie?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Like smokies and pilsner.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I know what pilsner is--what's a smokie?



A greasy sausage link. Smoked. Hence the name. 


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----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> A greasy sausage link. Smoked. Hence the name.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Love them ................... especially since we are not allowed to have hot dogs (aka wieners) at our house.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> The sooner the CBC-TV network is dismantled, the sooner the Canadian media will rid itself of a left biased broadcaster that creates the news it wants Canadians to see and hear. Let the radio arm survive on its own by selling advertising, the only wing of the CBC that stands a chance to succeed.


Yep . . .


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Yep . . .


Luckily, the CBC has the integrity not to do this sort of biased POV. I feel that they are quite good at presenting a balanced view on local, national and international events. I like to watch CBC, CNN, PBS and the BBC to see how they present the news about the same event. Very interesting. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> Luckily, the CBC has the integrity not to do this sort of biased POV. I feel that they are quite good at presenting a balanced view on local, national and international events. I like to watch CBC, CNN, PBS and the BBC to see how they present the news about the same event. Very interesting. Paix, mon ami.


Sadly the CBC-TV has no integrity and I personally witnessed it first hand many years ago. They manufacture news or alternately deliberately do not cover events that go against their leftist agenda. The word integrity is far from what the CBC-TV network actually is and does.


----------



## Macfury

CBC-TV numbers are in the basement. Let it become a pay service so you can enjoy your special "eclectic" viewing at no cost to those who never watch it, Dr. G.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Sadly the CBC-TV has no integrity and I personally witnessed it first hand many years ago. They manufacture news or alternately deliberately do not cover events that go against their leftist agenda. The word integrity is far from what the CBC-TV network actually is and does.



Talk about confirmation bias! The CBC is an excellent and thorough news choice and many of us Canadians value it even if you don't. Do you show any bias in your journalism? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Watch the shows week after week and you shall see my point. Paix, mon ami.


My friend, that's not enjoyment. That's indoctrination...


----------



## FeXL

The iron...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Talk about confirmation bias!


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> I like to watch CBC, CNN, PBS and the BBC to see how they present the news about the same event.


So, instead of learning anything about the actual news, you're conducting a mass character study on who presents the best narrative?



Dr.G. said:


> Very interesting. Paix, mon ami.


I'll bet...


----------



## Macfury

How many Canadians value it? Viewership peaks at less than 3% of the population. You should pay to have your own biases confirmed.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Talk about confirmation bias! The CBC is an excellent and thorough news choice and many of us Canadians value it even if you don't. Do you show any bias in your journalism?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> How many Canadians value it? Viewership peaks at less than 3% of the population. You should pay to have your own biases confirmed.


Let's get something clear here....all news providers have a bias. In fact most news agencies brag about it...the CBC regularly advertises itself of providing news with a Canadian perspective.....just wondering what that is?

The real issue is with CBC TV, no one watches it. Their radio is excellent, but again, it is banded across the country. So, who listens to it and is it worth the expense.

My vote would be to either develop a real Canadian broadcaster for a world market or dump it all together. Not worth the money currently IMO.


----------



## Macfury

That's why I mentioned the low viewership. If the CBC represents your bias of choice, then pay for that bias personally.

Calling _Kim's Convenience_ a "hit" when it is viewed by less than 2% of viewers is really stretching a definition. 

When a debate over the existences of the CBC doesn't even include the question "Do enough people watch it?", you realize something is wrong.



Rps said:


> Let's get something clear here....all news providers have a bias. In fact most news agencies brag about it...the CBC regularly advertises itself of providing news with a Canadian perspective.....just wondering what that is?
> 
> The real issue is with CBC TV, no one watches it. Their radio is excellent, but again, it is banded across the country. So, who listens to it and is it worth the expense.
> 
> My vote would be to either develop a real Canadian broadcaster for a world market or dump it all together. Not worth the money currently IMO.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> So, instead of learning anything about the actual news, you're conducting a mass character study on who presents the best narrative?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet...


No, not the "best narrative", just the most accurate news. I do watch CTV and Global for Canadian perspectives as well, and even tune in to Fox News to see how they are reporting a certain event. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> ...the CBC regularly advertises itself of providing news with a Canadian perspective.....just wondering what that is?


Progressive Cranio-Rectal Inversion...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> No, not the "best narrative", just the most accurate news. I do watch CTV and Global for Canadian perspectives as well, and even tune in to Fox News to see how they are reporting a certain event. Paix, mon ami.



Excellent news sources, Dr. G, with the exception of Fox News. However, the confirmation bias of certain members will make them conclude that no honest news can ever come from CBC or Global. The rest of us understand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Excellent news sources, Dr. G, with the exception of Fox News. However, the confirmation bias of certain members will make them conclude that no honest news can ever come from CBC or Global. The rest of us understand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am willing to listen to all points of view and then decide myself what to believe.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Excellent news sources, Dr. G, with the exception of Fox News. However, the confirmation bias of certain members will make them conclude that no honest news can ever come from CBC or Global. The rest of us understand.


Such a statement only demonstrates how little one understands. 

Comparing CBC to Global is like comparing Pinnochio to Wordsworth who said, "In modern business it is not the crook who is to be feared most, it is the honest man who doesn't know what he is doing." Such is CBC-TV.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> I am willing to listen to all points of view and then decide myself what to believe.



As am I. I'm a bit of a news junkie that way. But I also keep an eye out for red flags that suggest a source may not be all that reliable. Words like, oh, "Rebel" and "Media" in the same title.


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## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> As am I. I'm a bit of a news junkie that way. But I also keep an eye out for red flags that suggest a source may not be all that reliable. Words like, oh, "Rebel" and "Media" in the same title.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, we all have to be mindful of the sources of information upon which we make our decisions. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Such a statement only demonstrates how little one understands.
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing CBC to Global is like comparing Pinnochio to Wordsworth who said, "In modern business it is not the crook who is to be feared most, it is the honest man who doesn't know what he is doing." Such is CBC-TV.



That's pretty dismissive, and somewhat offensive to those of us who value what the CBC has to offer. Did this news organization wrong you at some point in your past? Your mockery seems disproportionate. 


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## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's pretty dismissive, and somewhat offensive to those of us who value what the CBC has to offer. Did this news organization wrong you at some point in your past? Your mockery seems disproportionate.


I have told the story here many times of what I witnessed CBC-TV news do in the late 70s that began a lifelong distrust of the corporation that has zero checks and balances as to its accuracy to any Canadian authority whatsoever.

I witnessed, sitting in a ghost car with a plain clothes police detective, CBC-TV Winnipeg set up (and completely fabricate) a reenactment of a story they missed the night before. They had assembled the same union goons who had, the night before rioted at a striking paper mill.

When what should have been a peaceful event on night two, it turned into a goon show for the benefit of the CBC video crew. It failed miserably, but the footage was used on air to illustrate the CBC leftist twist on the union being mistreated by police.

I shall never forget the incident, nor will I forget or forgive CBC-TV for many other 'engineered' stories over the years.

When one works in the business, one is in close proximity to what is going on and in the case of CBC-TV, there are many such examples over my four decades of observation of the leftist, taxpayer funded sham they call balanced reporting.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I have told the story here many times of what I witnessed CBC-TV news do in the late 70s that began a lifelong distrust of the corporation that has zero checks and balances as to its accuracy to any Canadian authority whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> I witnessed, sitting in a ghost car with a plain clothes police detective, CBC-TV Winnipeg set up (and completely fabricate) a reenactment of a story they missed the night before. They had assembled the same union goons who had, the night before rioted at a striking paper mill.
> 
> 
> 
> When what should have been a peaceful event on night two, it turned into a goon show for the benefit of the CBC video crew. It failed miserably, but the footage was used on air to illustrate the CBC leftist twist on the union being mistreated by police.
> 
> 
> 
> I shall never forget the incident, nor will I forget or forgive CBC-TV for many other 'engineered' stories over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> When one works in the business, one is in close proximity to what is going on and in the case of CBC-TV, there are many such examples over my four decades of observation of the leftist, taxpayer funded sham they call balanced reporting.



It is unfortunate that is your experience, and no, I was not aware of it. I do not read everything you post. Thank you for explaining where your cynicism comes from. Now if you could back off on dismissing anything I post that emanates from the CBC, an organization I still admire and respect, that would be great. And in return, I will back off on dismissing anything that emanates from the Rebel Media, an organization that you must know fabricates the majority of the "news" that it writes. Given your clear respect for truth in journalism, I would think that would be a fair exchange. 


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## Macfury

I think the most important question is not whether a few citizens still admire or respect the CBC, but whether the majority of Canadians who don't watch it should continue to fund it. We are slowly moving to a subscription model for television programming and I suspect that two or three CBC programs might be popular enough to survive with the support of their small audiences.


----------



## SINC

The Aussies got it.

Australian carbon tax opponent visits Saskatoon to discourage support for Canadian plan - Saskatoon - CBC News


----------



## SINC

The deeper they dig . . .

Money began to rain on Trudeau Foundation once Justin took over Liberals, analysis shows | National Post


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I think the most important question is not whether a few citizens still admire or respect the CBC, but whether the majority of Canadians who don't watch it should continue to fund it. We are slowly moving to a subscription model for television programming and I suspect that two or three CBC programs might be popular enough to survive with the support of their small audiences.


Or expressed another way, take the total CBC budget and divide by 33million, that is the cost per person. Are you getting value for that money?

In 2013, the amount from the government was about $39 per person.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Or expressed another way, take the total CBC budget and divide by 33million, that is the cost per person. Are you getting value for that money?
> 
> In 2013, the amount from the government was about $39 per person.


Great value in my opinion. Canada would just not be Canada without CBC TV and Radio 1 and 2. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

_(emphasis added)_

*Federal government's Canada.ca project 'off the rails'*

The federal government's bid to merge 1,500 departmental and agency websites into a single site, Canada.ca, is a year behind schedule and almost 10 times over budget. And experts warn it is on track to be another failed government IT project, like the Phoenix pay system.

"It's gone off the rails. It's a disaster,"

* * *​
The Canada.ca initiative was launched in 2013 with the goal of making it easier for people to find and use government information online. A *$1.54-million contract* for a new content management system, where all government websites would be moved, *was awarded to Adobe in 2015*.

* * *​
*The contract with Adobe is now above $9.4 million*, according to government figures.

The actual migration of the websites is up to the departments themselves and is to be done within existing budgets and staffing. Since 2015, eight of the largest departments have budgeted or spent more than $28 million on this project.

* * *​
According to the government, *only 10,000 web pages have been moved* to date. *There are more than 17 million Government of Canada web pages* in total.

"If it's cost them already 10 times their existing budget to migrate only 0.05 per cent of the content for the Government of Canada, we're talking about it ultimately costing hundreds of millions of dollars. It's not a small price ticket," said Mike Gifford, CEO of Ottawa-based web development company _Open Concept_, who has written articles criticizing the government's approach to Canada.ca.

(Much more at CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Great value in my opinion. Canada would just not be Canada without CBC TV and Radio 1 and 2. Paix, mon ami.


I wish you could pay this great subscription fee all by yourself, Dr. G. It provides zero value to me and my family.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> The federal government's bid to merge 1,500 departmental and agency websites into a single site, Canada.ca, is a year behind schedule and almost 10 times over budget. And experts warn it is on track to be another failed government IT project, like the Phoenix pay system.
> 
> "It's gone off the rails. It's a disaster,"


Why is it even being done at all?


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> _(emphasis added)_
> 
> *Federal government's Canada.ca project 'off the rails'*
> 
> The federal government's bid to merge 1,500 departmental and agency websites into a single site, Canada.ca, is a year behind schedule and almost 10 times over budget. And experts warn it is on track to be another failed government IT project, like the Phoenix pay system.
> 
> "It's gone off the rails. It's a disaster,"
> 
> SNIP


Why oh why does no one in government ever stop to think of how they might accomplish the same thing in an afternoon's work by a competent programmer at no extra cost?

First thing that popped into my head was to establish Canada.ca as a focal point for all *current government websites*. Simply sort agencies by category and *add links to respective sites in each category*, eliminating the need for an entire new website but making it easy for Canadians to quickly access the information they need.

Or is that too much for a government to get their mind around?

Good grief, how stupid does one have to be to work in government IT?


----------



## Dr.G.

Dwight Ball's approval rating 20%, second-worst in Canada, says new poll - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News

Luckily for NL's Premier Ball that ON's premier Wynne is so "beloved" in ON, or he would be at the bottom.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Why oh why does no one in government ever stop to think of how they might accomplish the same thing in an afternoon's work by a competent programmer at no extra cost?
> 
> First thing that popped into my head was to establish Canada.ca as a focal point for all *current government websites*. Simply sort agencies by category and *add links to respective sites in each category*, eliminating the need for an entire new website but making it easy for Canadians to quickly access the information they need.
> 
> Or is that too much for a government to get their mind around?
> 
> Good grief, how stupid does one have to be to work in government IT?


As I read it this was a contract awarded by the Harpoon government to Adobe, I am going by the beginning date of 2013 as the no month 2015 award date is rather vague. So the privatization fad has to take part of the blame.

That said, turning over the design of a website to Adobe is just asking for never-end-um fees and price bumps. Not to mention needlessly convoluted form structures.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Good grief, how stupid does one have to be to work in government IT?


On the contrary, I think they're brilliant. Just like the fools who look longer to build a healthcare website stateside than the US involvement in the Second World War.

Look at it this way: It's job security...


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> So the privatization fad has to take part of the blame.


...because career civil servants are so dependable!


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Why oh why does no one in government ever stop to think of how they might accomplish the same thing in an afternoon's work by a competent programmer at no extra cost?


1/ Ask ex-Prime Minister Harper. His government sought to implement this project, and signed the contract.

2/ Adobe? Really? 

3/ Given that they're talking about several million webpages (and god knows how many associated documents) I don't begrudge the plan to go with a company with proven technological capabilities. But... _Adobe_? Canada doesn't have a competitive company that knows how to do front- and back-end development at this scale? Adobe is far from the first company I'd think of when looking for a web developer.... 

The article is worth reading for the rest of the story... like how the new deadline is "impossible". Blame for this fiasco should be meted out appropriately, and I hope the original contract had some kind of penalty mechanism for Adobe not getting its **** together.


----------



## Macfury

Why is everyone pointing out that PM Harper signed the contract? It's government itself that is the problem.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Why is everyone pointing out that PM Harper signed the contract? It's government itself that is the problem.


'Cause anything they can tack on the back end of the Harper donkey makes them feel superior...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Why is everyone pointing out that PM Harper signed the contract? It's government itself that is the problem.


I thought you were a Libertarian, not an Anarchist!


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> 'Cause anything they can tack on the back end of the Harper donkey makes them feel superior...


Sorry for pointing out reality. I know how it burns, like sunlight on the delicate skin of a vampire....


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Why is everyone pointing out that PM Harper signed the contract? ....


Hey let the Harpoon own that which he created! The sucksessor can own his own blunders, starting with the Carbon Tax fiasco.


----------



## FeXL

What? That gov'ts at all levels, no matter what the colour, are stupid, inefficient and profligate?

Welcome to the 19th century.

Rolling eyes, indeed.

I was commenting more on the fact that you pinned this on a democratic leader, all the while completely ignoring the fact that your favorite dictator killed at least 100,000 of his own citizens...



CubaMark said:


> Sorry for pointing out reality. I know how it burns, like sunlight on the delicate skin of a vampire....


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Prog heads exploding everywhere...

Poll: 76% of Canadians would consider voting for a candidate with “Trump-like qualities”



> An Ipsos poll conducted on behalf of Global News in November revealed that three-quarters (76 per cent) of 1,700 Canadians surveyed said they would consider voting for a candidate with “Trump-like” qualities, including stricter immigration control, reviewing trade agreements to ensure they are in Canada’s best interest and getting tough on crime.


Would Mr. Kevin O'Leary please stand up?

More:



> Another poll, conducted by Forum Research, revealed that support for the federal Liberals dropped by 9 per cent in one month. According to Forum, if federal elections were held today, 42 per cent of Canadians would vote Liberal, compared to 51 per cent in November.
> 
> The same poll also found that Trudeau’s “favourability” rating dropped from 58 per cent last month to 51 per cent in December, while approval rating for Conservative Party’s interim leader Rona Ambrose increased from 30 per cent to 36 per cent.


Wait 'til the Carbon Tax kicks in. Honeymoon's over, Hairdo. Time to fish or cut bait...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, I don't know if legally carrying pepper spray is "offensive" or not. However, any Prog idiot who thinks that merely "addressing...gender-based violence" is going to make the problem go away must either be a card-carrying member of the Liberal Party of Canada or the US Dems...

Liberal Canadian Minister Of Women: Legalizing Concealed Pepper Spray Carry Is “Offensive” To Women



> Liberal Canadian MP Patty Hajdu has spoken out against a law that would legalize pepper spray and mace, saying it “places the onus on women to defend themselves rather than addressing and preventing gender-based violence.”


Self-defence? Perish the thought!!! Just stand there & think of rainbow-coloured unicorn farts. The attacker will be able to quickly read your thoughts & move on. Probably accompanied with an apology. Or something...

If this woman ever personally experiences violence (and seriously I hope she doesn't) the harsh reality will make her world will collapse like a house of cards.

Maybe she thinks it'll play out something like this:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Sister of Canadian victim of Islamic terrorists: “Trudeau’s words mean nothing”



> Speaking at a year-end conference in Ottawa on December 12, 2016, Prime Minister Trudeau said that the lowest point of his first year as a prime minister was the execution in the Philippines of two Canadian hostages Robert Hall and John Ridsdel.
> 
> Following Trudeau’s conference in the National Press Theatre in Ottawa, RobertHall’s sister Bonice Thomas accused Trudeau of “careful manipulation of optics” and said his words at the news conference “mean nothing.”
> 
> She said that Trudeau’s no-ransom “posturing” did not improve safety for Canadians, but rather “painted a huge target” on their backs in foreign countries.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

When even the Grope & Flail takes notice...

Trudeau’s climate ‘deal’: all pain, no gain 



> Justin Trudeau’s new climate deal with the provinces will cost Canadians many, many billions, maybe more. Some will come directly from our pockets in the form of carbon taxes. Some of it will disappear by stealth, swallowed up in complicated cap-and-trade schemes, infrastructure investments, clean-tech subsidies and a whole thicket of new building codes and regulations. *No cost-benefit analysis has been provided, or ever will be, because too much is subject to negotiation, and too much is impossible to measure even if you tried.*


M'bold.

On that:

Brad Wall calls on PM to release secret memo on carbon pricing 



> Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall is calling on the prime minister to release an un-redacted version of a secret memo prepared for the finance minister that states carbon pricing would “cascade throughout the economy and prices would increase most for goods that make intensive use of carbon-based energy."
> 
> Wall told CTV’s Power Play Friday that the heavily redacted memo marked “SECRET” and obtained through an Access to Information request by the website Blacklock’s Reporter is the first example he’s seen showing “the government might have introspectively looked at the implications of (carbon pricing).”
> 
> Wall has said he will not sign any agreement that imposes a carbon tax on Saskatchewan, in part because he says the federal government hasn’t done enough to study how many jobs could be lost or how it will affect prices for consumers.


And, despite the fact that there are examples of carbon taxes aplenty failing miserably, "Man's doom is to forget":

Trudeau’s Down Under disaster 



> When it comes to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s national carbon pricing scheme, we have seen Canada’s future.
> 
> It’s in Australia and it’s not pretty.
> 
> Australia, like Canada, is a developed country with a huge land mass, a relatively small population and significant fossil fuel resources — coal for it, oil and gas for Canada.
> 
> Four years ago, Australia’s then-Labour government imposed a national carbon price on its citizens.
> 
> Two years later, Australia’s then-Liberal government scrapped the initiative after it took $16 billion out of the economy for income redistribution by the government, helped send electricity prices soaring by 25% and increased the cost of living for consumers on a wide range of goods and services.


Related:

Sky high energy prices will hurt people this winter



> “Christmas is actually the worst time for these people,” John Teljeur tells me. “It means they have to keep the house warm and feed the kids while they’re home from school.”
> 
> Teljeur is a volunteer with Heat Bank Halliburton County, a community initiative delivering wood to neighbours who can’t pay their energy bills. I’ve caught him on the phone between his trips delivering loads of woods.
> 
> This year, things have already picked up at the heat bank. Wood started in October. Usually the bank’s efforts aren’t needed until November at the earliest.
> 
> A lot of people across Ontario are nervously awaiting this winter’s energy bills. They know the rates have gone up since the previous year.
> 
> *“There’s nothing left for them,” Tejeur says of the people they help who receive disability payments. “There’s a precarious balance in their household income. You add even a little bit of extra cost, that changes everything.”*


M'bold.

Yep.

And it's not just people on disability payments who are feeling the squeeze...


----------



## FeXL

They'll never allow it...

A test at age 3 can predict whether children will grow and go to jail and lead a troubled life, scientists say



> A simple test at the age of three can determine whether children will grow up to be a burden on society, needing excessive welfare, spending time in prison or becoming obese, a 35-year study has shown.
> 
> Scientists at King’s College London followed more than 1,000 children from before school until they were 38, to find out if it was possible to predict who would go on to lead troubled lives.
> 
> All were given a 45-minute test aged three to gauge intelligence, language and motor skills, and were assessed for their levels of tolerance, restlessness, impulsiveness and social disadvantage.
> 
> After 35 years, the researchers found one fifth of the group was responsible for 81 per cent of the group’s overall criminal convictions, three quarters of its drug prescriptions, two thirds of welfare benefit payments and more than half of nights in hospital.


Politicians don't believe in prevention. Only marginally effective, expensive, taxpayer funded "cures" after the fact...


----------



## SINC

A little video for all those green types who want to leave fossil fuels in the ground and tax carbon:

https://vimeo.com/31586887


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> They'll never allow it...
> 
> 
> 
> A test at age 3 can predict whether children will grow and go to jail and lead a troubled life, scientists say
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Politicians don't believe in prevention. Only marginally effective, expensive, taxpayer funded "cures" after the fact...



Better yet, why don't we just improve the accuracy of the test so we can abort the bad apples before they're even born. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Why not? A number of them will be aborted anyway. Let's get rid of the rest while we're at it. Save society a ton of grief, heartache & cash. Eliminate of a bunch of lefty voters at the same time. Win/win.

<just shaking my head>



Freddie_Biff said:


> Better yet, why don't we just improve the accuracy of the test so we can abort the bad apples before they're even born.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Why not? A number of them will be aborted anyway. Let's get rid of the rest while we're at it. Save society a ton of grief, heartache & cash. Eliminate of a bunch of lefty voters at the same time. Win/win.
> 
> 
> 
> <just shaking my head>



Ever read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal"? 


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----------



## FeXL

Yep, English 1900.

Why? Are you attempting to be a great satirist? 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Ever read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal"?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Yep, English 1900.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Are you attempting to be a great satirist?



Nay, not great, I. Just good enough.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Trudeau and Notley alert:

Green energy costs a fortune and has never worked


----------



## FeXL

Well, keep working on it...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Nay, not great, I. Just good enough.


----------



## FeXL

Further on the folly of carbon pricing.

Ontario leads way to carbon pricing hell



> When it comes to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s national carbon pricing plan, Canadians deserve straight answers on two questions.
> 
> What is it going to cost them and is it going to work?
> 
> Will it actually lower industrial greenhouse gas emissions linked to climate change?
> 
> Ontario Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk recently evaluated Premier Kathleen Wynne’s version of Trudeau’s national carbon pricing plan, a provincial cap-and-trade scheme which will kick in Jan. 1.
> 
> *Any logical reading of Lysyk’s findings should send Ontarians screaming for the exits in terror.*


M'bold.

Considering their election history, few Ontarians can be considered "logical"...


----------



## FeXL

Let's talk a bit more about Canada's version of "Pay for Play".

Money began to rain on Trudeau Foundation once Justin took over Liberals, analysis shows



> A National Post analysis of the Trudeau Foundation’s public disclosures has found that gifts to the foundation have increased significantly since Justin Trudeau’s April 2013 election as leader of the Liberal Party of Canada. The amount of money contributed to the foundation by foreign donors has grown each year since Trudeau claimed the party’s leadership. Moreover, a significant proportion of the charity’s donors, directors and members have ties to companies and organizations that are actively lobbying the federal government.
> 
> Whether or not the foundation violates conflict-of-interest laws, its operations represent another challenge to the high ethical standard Trudeau has established for his government. *The Open and Accountable Government guide, codified after Trudeau became prime minister in October 2015, specifies that when fundraising or dealing with lobbyists, “Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries must avoid conflict of interest, the appearance of conflict of interest and situations that have the potential to involve conflicts of interest.”*


M'bold.

Trudeau Foundation->Fail.

Meltdown: Justin Trudeau Defends Presence at Elite Fundraisers as Approval Plummets



> Liberal Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told the nation’s House of Commons Tuesday that he has attended lavish fundraisers for his family’s foundation to “create economic growth for the middle class.”


Right. The old, "This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" defence.

Trudeau’s pay-for-play scheme can get a lot worse



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has repeatedly said the Liberal Party’s fundraising events meet all the rules. Canadians should read the rules and judge for themselves.
> 
> The Liberal Party continues to set up exclusive social events for stakeholders and billionaires where, for a donation, they can meet the Prime Minister and other Ministers.
> 
> *Yet, if you search for Annex B of the government’s “Open and Accountable” Guide for Ministers, you’ll see the plain words: “there should be no preferential access” to Cabinet Ministers. Pretty clear.*


M'bold.

Yep.

And, a bit of snark:

After his stint as Celebrity Prime Minister... 



> ...there's always a career in standup comedy...
> 
> _Trudeau also denied involvement with the Trudeau Foundation, calling it “an independent foundation established in the memory of my father with which I ceased to have any engagement shortly after having become leader of the Liberal Party.”_
> 
> The Globe and Mail _notes that “opposition MPs erupted in howls of laughter” at his denial._​


And, finally, a wunnerful, wunnerful video (Caution: Progs: Link to Rebel Media enclosed. May cause hysteria, heart palpitations, sweaty hands and <sniff> crying. Wah...):

MUST SEE: The story of Justin Trudeau's Chinese fundraisers get the Taiwanese animation treatment



> Whenever there's a big story in the news, you know that the YouTube channel Taiwanese Animators will be there to provide their take.


Well, I'd never heard of the Taiwanese Animators before.



> In their latest video, they animate Justin Trudeau after his latest debacle. As the video description puts it: “Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been facing criticism about Liberal Party cash-for-access fundraisers that have generated hundreds of thousands of dollars.”


Freakin'. Hilarious.

I guess The Hairdo has made the Big Times now...


----------



## SINC

Brent Rathgeber is our former MP and now practices law in St. Albert. He also writes a weekly column on his web site, iPolitics. He says Brad Wall is right and that Trudeau lacks the legal authority to impose a carbon tax. Read it here: Gunpoint diplomacy at the First Ministers table


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Why, yes. Yes we are...

The peasants in Canada are revolting, no question about it



> The big cities are also where the progressives and the socialists live in high style because they are the elites in government, in academia, and in the social-welfare bureaucracies.
> 
> They love the status quo. They love their taxpayer-infused pensions. They love farting through silk.
> 
> None of these big-city elites, however, would spend a week in a small town in Northern Ontario, or even considered visiting a family who had their electricity unplugged for being unable to pay the bill.
> 
> That would be an unknown universe to them, and below their perceived stations in life.


----------



## Dr.G.

Alberta carbon tax calculator: How much will you pay — or get back? - Calgary - CBC News Multimedia

If I lived in AB, I would have to pay about $300.


----------



## SINC

> The rhetoric of climate change has an aversion to reality, seduces governments into ignoring the needs of their citizens, and fires the minds of politicians who imagine themselves saving the world. In other words, it tempts them to feel they are more important than they are, that they are working with “history,” rather than operating administrations faced with more immediate, if mundane, needs. That is always a snare and a delusion.


Rex Murphy: Curb your climate change enthusiasm | National Post


----------



## SINC

The man is out of touch with reality.

Trudeau uses credit card (again) to Christmas gift unions | Bonokoski | Canada |


----------



## SINC

Bump to make post above appear.


----------



## Dr.G.

Syrian pastry chef lands sweet gig in Nova Scotia - Nova Scotia - CBC News

A good news story from here in rural NS.


----------



## Macfury

Because it's 2015!

Canada's economy contracts on weakest factory output since 2013 - The Globe and Mail

Trudeau reminds me of his daddy, prancing around in front of cameras, while his perverse policies wreak havoc on Canadian citizens.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Because it's 2015!
> 
> Canada's economy contracts on weakest factory output since 2013 - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Trudeau reminds me of his daddy, prancing around in front of cameras, while his perverse policies wreak havoc on Canadian citizens.


I have no problem with that assessment... When was it the last time that te PM "introduced" the Grey Cup? Basically never. This guy is just one big photo Op waiting for the next photo Op, much like his father, any excuse to put his mug in front of a camera.

His PR stench is palpable, it nearly makes me want to throw up every morning and that is before the effects of the night before have kicked in... 

Having spent a time working as a legislative assistant under his "party/government" all I can say is that it is the same as it ever was and even worse, as when it came to the pre-comm meetings that I attended. Suddenly Michelle Rempel is a "bitch" and a "force to be reckoned with". How f**king sad are the Libs that they need to be afraid of her when they have a majority on the committee?

If anyone believes the BS that comes out of the PMO or a Minister they are just fooling themselves. It is no different from the previous government. Because of the nature of our political system it is not elected officials that run things, it is the people at the top levels of the party. All elected officials including the PM act on the behest of the Party cut and dry due to the nature of our whipped system.

I could go on and on but will leave it at that now and just wish everyone a Happy Holiday Season..


----------



## wonderings

SINC said:


> The man is out of touch with reality.
> 
> Trudeau uses credit card (again) to Christmas gift unions | Bonokoski | Canada |


That is insane. I am curious what the comparison is between public and private. Hey say in the article that .5% public sector employees lost their jobs, how many unionized private sector lost their jobs?

This insane spending is why people want a Trump in power... or at least a non politician. Career politicians seem to be out of touch with reality and the very simple premis of do not spend more then what comes in.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> That is insane. I am curious what the comparison is between public and private. Hey say in the article that .5% public sector employees lost their jobs, how many unionized private sector lost their jobs?
> 
> 
> 
> This insane spending is why people want a Trump in power... or at least a non politician. Career politicians seem to be out of touch with reality and the very simple premis of do not spend more then what comes in.



I don't believe that somebody like Trump has any idea about how to reigning in spending, other than firing people or not honouring contracts. 


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## Macfury

wonderings said:


> That is insane. I am curious what the comparison is between public and private. Hey say in the article that .5% public sector employees lost their jobs, how many unionized private sector lost their jobs?
> 
> This insane spending is why people want a Trump in power... or at least a non politician. Career politicians seem to be out of touch with reality and the very simple premis of do not spend more then what comes in.


Only smart socialists like Rachel Notley can balance budgets, apparently.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I don't believe that somebody like Trump has any idea about how to reigning in spending, other than firing people or not honouring contracts.


You obviously know very little about business. Trump can and will find thousands of options to reduce the cost of government. Looking at our own governments, using my business background gained from over 40 years experience, I could reduce spending by 10% in a heartbeat and not even dent services nor with a single job loss.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> You obviously know very little about business. Trump can and will find thousands of options to reduce the cost of government. Looking at our own governments, using my business background gained from over 40 years experience, I could reduce spending by 10% in a heartbeat and not even dent services nor with a single job loss.



Thanks for the insult. I know plenty about running a tight ship on a limited budget, and I certainly stretch a dollar for any budgets I have been in charge of, at home, school or for the businesses I have run or worked in for the last 40 years. That's not the point. The point is that Trump hires people to do it for him, precisely because that is not his area of expertise. He's the front man, the entertainer, the figurehead. Four bankruptcies and hundreds of lawsuits also do not speak well for his business acumen. If he's a billionaire, it's either because he got lucky or stiffed people he owes money to. I suspect he is nowhere near as rich as he claims to be, and his poor knee jerk judgement is likely the reason. 


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## Freddie_Biff

Happy Christmas everyone! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aurora

Thank you and a very happy Christmas to all on these boards.


----------



## Dr.G.

Merry/Happy whatever ............. unless you celebrate Festivus .................. then, I am not sure what to say. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## FeXL

No $h!t, Sherlock. That's what Presidents do. They manage other people who get the job done. Just shaking my head...



Freddie_Biff said:


> The point is that Trump hires people to do it for him...


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Thanks for the insult. I know plenty about running a tight ship on a limited budget, and I certainly stretch a dollar for any budgets I have been in charge of, at home, school or for the businesses I have run or worked in for the last 40 years. That's not the point. The point is that Trump hires people to do it for him, precisely because that is not his area of expertise. He's the front man, the entertainer, the figurehead. Four bankruptcies and hundreds of lawsuits also do not speak well for his business acumen. If he's a billionaire, it's either because he got lucky or stiffed people he owes money to. I suspect he is nowhere near as rich as he claims to be, and his poor knee jerk judgement is likely the reason.


Like I stated before you know very little about running a business which is what a corporation is, a business. In my final years I handled budgets nearing half a billion dollars annually and know how easy it would be to pick off 10 points, something you have never been exposed to at your level, no insult intended this time or last. It's known as rendering the fat. Trump did not get to his level without having the talent and knowledge to do the same when it benefited his bottom line. You may want to tone down your preconceived and unfounded notions of criticism about the man until he actually takes the reins. You base your opinions on the opinions of others with no direct involvement. The incidents you keep repeating likely do not amount to a single percentage point of the decisions made in the boardroom of any major corporation of Trump's longevity.

At any rate, Merry Christmas and all the best in the new year to you and yours Frank.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Merry/Happy whatever ............. unless you celebrate Festivus .................. then, I am not sure what to say. Paix, mes amis.















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Like I stated before you know very little about running a business which is what a corporation is, a business. In my final years I handled budgets nearing half a billion dollars annually and know how easy it would be to pick off 10 points, something you have never been exposed to at your level, no insult intended this time or last. It's known as rendering the fat. Trump did not get to his level without having the talent and knowledge to do the same when it benefited his bottom line. You may want to tone down your preconceived and unfounded notions of criticism about the man until he actually takes the reins. You base your opinions on the opinions of others with no direct involvement. The incidents you keep repeating likely do not amount to a single percentage point of the decisions made in the boardroom of any major corporation of Trump's longevity.
> 
> 
> 
> At any rate, Merry Christmas and all the best in the new year to you and yours Frank.



And also with you, Don. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lmao::lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Price of hydro will continue to rise says industry expert - Kitchener-Waterloo - CBC News

Interesting.


----------



## Dr.G.

Calgary Muslim group clears snow, spreads Christmas cheer - Calgary - CBC News

Nice to have a good news story over Christmas.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Price of hydro will continue to rise says industry expert - Kitchener-Waterloo - CBC News
> 
> Interesting.


The only thing not mentioned is the gross incompetence of provincial Liberals in managing the system the past decade.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The only thing not mentioned is the gross incompetence of provincial Liberals in managing the system the past decade.


Strange that an over supply of electrical power would lead to higher rates.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Calgary Muslim group clears snow, spreads Christmas cheer - Calgary - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to have a good news story over Christmas.




Indeed. Hope floats.


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## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Indeed. Hope floats.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very true, Frank. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Indeed. Hope floats.


And hope is dashed all too often.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Strange that an over supply of electrical power would lead to higher rates.


The distribution and delivery systems are grossly inefficient. If power use dropped to zero, bills would still be 80% of what they are today. The oversupply is the result of businesses leaving Ontario--fewer customers, higher bills among the remaining users. Add to that unneeded green energy boondoggles and you have a massive oversupply. If you allow that oversupply to stay in the system it blows out components, so Ontario is forced to pay other states and provinces to take it off its hands to preserve the system.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The distribution and delivery systems are grossly inefficient. If power use dropped to zero, bills would still be 80% of what they are today. The oversupply is the result of businesses leaving Ontario--fewer customers, higher bills among the remaining users. Add to that unneeded green energy boondoggles and you have a massive oversupply. If you allow that oversupply to stay in the system it blows out components, so Ontario is forced to pay other states and provinces to take it off its hands to preserve the system.


Interesting. So much for the theory of supply and demand. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. So much for the theory of supply and demand. Paix, mon ami.


Supply and demand would only work if you could store it! The "green" energy destabilizes the system by adding energy when it isn't needed--that forces us to sell to other customers.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Supply and demand would only work if you could store it! The "green" energy destabilizes the system by adding energy when it isn't needed--that forces us to sell to other customers.


I thought that there was a great need for electricity in the area of the US around ON. Ready customers .......... an oversupply .............. capitalism at work.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> I thought that there was a great need for electricity in the area of the US around ON. Ready customers .......... an oversupply .............. capitalism at work.



And even more so a huge need for fresh water, the world's most valuable resource. California imports nearly all its water now. 


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## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> And even more so a huge need for fresh water, the world's most valuable resource. California imports nearly all its water now.


That's complete rubbish. California meets its water needs though locally sourced rainwater, groundwater, river water and snow melt. Where do you dig up such misinformation?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I thought that there was a great need for electricity in the area of the US around ON. Ready customers .......... an oversupply .............. capitalism at work.


Statism at work.. Ontario does not have a stable supply of energy, so no steady customers outside the province, in part thanks to heavily subsidized "green" energy, which destabilizes the supply even further. This leads to emergencies where Ontario pays other jurisdictions to take it off our hands. As Ontario's industrial base declines--in part due to higher energy prices and government policies--the problem worsens. Capitalism can't fix a market rigged by government to fail.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Statism at work.. Ontario does not have a stable supply of energy, so no steady customers outside the province, in part thanks to heavily subsidized "green" energy, which destabilizes the supply even further. This leads to emergencies where Ontario pays other jurisdictions to take it off our hands. As Ontario's industrial base declines--in part due to higher energy prices and government policies--the problem worsens. Capitalism can't fix a market rigged by government to fail.


Strange that ON would have to pay someone to take needed electricity off their hands.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Strange that ON would have to pay someone to take needed electricity off their hands.


Some of that "New Math", Dr.G.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Some of that "New Math", Dr.G.


Seems as if the ON government has botched this one.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Seems as if the ON government has botched this one.


The understatement of the year.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> The understatement of the year.


Well, I don't really follow the ON political scene. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> And even more so a huge need for fresh water, the world's most valuable resource. California imports nearly all its water now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Macfury said:


> That's complete rubbish. California meets its water needs though locally sourced rainwater, groundwater, river water and snow melt. Where do you dig up such misinformation?


Macfury is correct and FB is in error on this front relative to my reading on the subject:

California Water Basics - Water Education Foundation

It does not mean that they don't have their own problems which will only get worse going forward but as it is now they are holding their own.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Macfury is correct and FB is in error on this front relative to my reading on the subject:
> 
> 
> 
> California Water Basics - Water Education Foundation
> 
> 
> 
> It does not mean that they don't have their own problems which will only get worse going forward but as it is now they are holding their own.



My bad. I stand corrected. They are making heavy use of aquifers but yes, they are supporting themselves currently.


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## Dr.G.

Ontario set to tackle climate change with cap-and-trade launch on Jan. 1 - The Globe and Mail

Should be interesting where the ON government spends the money they will "make" on this undertaking. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

They'll throw it down the same corrupt rathole they're already using to dispose of taxpayer funds. This will have no effect on climate and destroy the budgets of Ontario's poorest. Utterly disgusting tax grab.



Dr.G. said:


> Ontario set to tackle climate change with cap-and-trade launch on Jan. 1 - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Should be interesting where the ON government spends the money they will "make" on this undertaking. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> They'll throw it down the same corrupt rathole they're already using to dispose of taxpayer funds. This will have no effect on climate and destroy the budgets of Ontario's poorest. Utterly disgusting tax grab.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> ...FB is in error on this front...


NAH! Can't be!!! :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

The Hairdo is just a hairdo?

Shocka... :yikes:

Majority of Canadians believe Trudeau government has “more style than substance”



> According to a December 20, 2016 Ipsos poll conducted for Global News, 67% of Canadians “agree” or “agree somewhat” that the Trudeau government is more style than substance.
> 
> ...
> 
> According to a December 15, 2016 Angus Reid poll, the number of Canadians who say they approve of the job Justin Trudeau is doing has dropped on average by 10 points to 55%, the lowest approval rating since the Liberals won a majority mandate in last October’s election, with the most significant drop recorded in Ontario, where Trudeau’s approval dropped by 16 points.


----------



## FeXL

So, I lost some respect for O'Leary after his recent comments about the military. That said, I know little to nothing about Mike Harris.

Mike Harris joins O’Leary team



> Former Ontario premier Mike Harris is acting as a “mentor” to Kevin O’Leary as he considers taking a run at the Conservative leadership, the Sun has learned.
> 
> On Friday morning, a full exploratory committee will be officially announced along with a website to gauge O’Leary’s support. Harris will be on that committee, along with former Senator Marjory Lebreton, an influential voice in Conservative circles.


Thoughts, MF?


----------



## Macfury

I never heard the actual full quote attributed to O'Leary so I will reserve judgment on that.

Mike Harris--the best premier I've ever seen in the province. A breath of Arctic air after the hell visited on Ontario by Bob Rae. He was great at crafting a strong message as well as disciplined in pulling off his agenda. Wasn't crazy about provincially-directed amalgamation of smaller cities, but liked almost everything else about his term of office.



FeXL said:


> So, I lost some respect for O'Leary after his recent comments about the military. That said, I know little to nothing about Mike Harris.
> 
> Mike Harris joins O’Leary team
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts, MF?


----------



## SINC

This ought to make every Trudeau lover's sphincter tighten about half way instantly. 

Buried government report reveals looming fiscal crisis | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> This ought to make every Trudeau lover's sphincter tighten about half way instantly.


It should but it won't. Every defender of The Hairdo will be either be in denial or in defence of. The believers are not programmed to be critical of The One, no matter what.


----------



## Macfury

Because it's 2015:
_
“The commitment needs to be a commitment to grow the economy and the budget will balance itself.”_

— Liberal leader Justin Trudeau, 2014


----------



## FeXL

Further on Liberal Budget Balancing 101...

Oh, Shocking Prime Minister!

From the comments:



> The Spawn is genetically predisposed to growing and running deficits just as mindless twits are genetically predisposed to voting for him in response to this trait. He now has to double down because his preordained mission in life would be at risk if he had to start turning down the spigot. He never learned the words fiscal responsibility growing up as a trust fund baby and I doubt that it's part of the drama teacher curriculum. Jerry has likely kept that kind of stuff hidden from him while tutoring him on economy destruction 101.
> 
> *Funny how this story never made it to the CBC where allegedly 52% of Canada's "journalists" pick up their cheques.*


M'bold.

Curious. Very curious...


----------



## FeXL

Further on taxing carbon.

On carbon pricing, ignorance isn't bliss 



> Based on media coverage of carbon pricing, it’s clear a lot of people don’t understand carbon pricing.
> 
> Let me address a few of the more misinformed arguments I’ve seen recently.


Good read.

Related:

The real costs of cap and trade



> Premier Kathleen Wynne’s Liberal government isn’t telling Ontarians the true price of cap and trade, which it imposed on consumers starting Sunday.
> 
> It estimates the average household will pay $156 more this year than last for gasoline and natural gas home heating is inaccurate by omission.
> 
> *The Liberal’s own figures — they plan to rake in $2 billion more from the public this year alone through cap and trade — suggest the real cost for Ontario’s five million households will be about $400 annually to start, not $156.*


M'bold.

Remember: To _start_. Once that cash cow starts producin', look out...

Related, 2:

Canadians Enjoying Their New Carbon Tax About As Much As You’d Expect



> _ (Lethbridge Herald) Alberta’s carbon tax is now a reality, with the levy being implemented as of Jan. 1. The effects of the tax showed up immediately with prices at the pumps taking a sizable jump. The amount of the carbon levy added to gasoline was 4.5 cents per litre, but locally that hike followed a six-cent increase at some gas stations just before the new year, meaning the price at some pumps in Lethbridge is 10.5 cents per litre higher than it was last week, suggesting there are other factors involved than just the carbon tax.
> 
> It remains to be seen how that will affect the cost of other goods and services as the trickle-down effect takes place. The predictions in that regard are wide-ranging. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation estimated a carbon tax would mean an annual hit of $2,500 to the average household’s wallet. Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall has said the additional costs would be $1,250 per year. A Maclean’s magazine article in October noted Alberta government estimates were suggesting indirect costs of $100 to $200 per year for the average household. The Trudeau government, which had been pressuring provinces to put a price on greenhouse gas emissions or the feds would do it for them, hasn’t offered much in the way of projected costs to Canadian households._​


Related, 3:

Cap and trade catastrophe 



> Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s cap and trade scheme goes into effect Sunday, Jan. 1. Here are eight major reasons why you should be alarmed.


Related, 4:

Cap-and-trade: This won’t end well, Ontario



> With Premier Kathleen Wynne’s cap-and-trade plan poised to take effect Jan. 1, there’s bad news ... and then there’s more bad news.
> 
> The initial bad news is that even the Liberal government admits it’s going to cost the average Ontario household $156 more annually to start, while the government’s own figures suggest it will be closer to $400 per year.


----------



## SINC

The more you know about him 101.

Canada Folly: Justin Trudeau spends New Year Holiday with Islamic Leader in Bahamas.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> The more you know about him 101.
> 
> Canada Folly: Justin Trudeau spends New Year Holiday with Islamic Leader in Bahamas.


I'm not a fan of Justin, but your attempt to mar his character/image by linking him to **gasp!** _a muslim_ **oh no!** is a little disingenuous, Don.

Close to a thousand people watched in person as *His Highness the Aga Khan and Prime Minister Stephen Harper* unveiled the commemorative plaque for three landmark initiatives by the Ismaili Imam in Toronto’s Don Mills Region. Joining to watch this event via a live telecast were thousands of Ismailis from Toronto and the surrounding areas who gathered at the Direct Energy Centre close to the city’s downtown core.

* * *​
The foundation ceremony for the Aga Khan Museum, the Ismaili Centre and their park took place in a specially erected tent structure on a warm sunny afternoon in one of Canada’s most diverse districts – that of Don Mills. During the ceremony, *the Prime Minister bestowed upon His Highness the Aga Khan the honorary Citizenship of Canada following last June’s unanimous vote in the Canadian Parliament confirming the distinction on His Highness. At that time the Prime Minister had described the Citizenship as a recognition of the Ismaili Imam’s leadership* in promoting “development, pluralism and tolerance around the world and of his remarkable leadership as Imam of the worldwide Ismaili community.”










(Simerg.com)​


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> I'm not a fan of Justin, but your attempt to mar his character/image by linking him to **gasp!** _a muslim_ **oh no!** is a little disingenuous, Don.
> 
> 
> 
> Close to a thousand people watched in person as *His Highness the Aga Khan and Prime Minister Stephen Harper* unveiled the commemorative plaque for three landmark initiatives by the Ismaili Imam in Toronto’s Don Mills Region. Joining to watch this event via a live telecast were thousands of Ismailis from Toronto and the surrounding areas who gathered at the Direct Energy Centre close to the city’s downtown core.
> 
> 
> 
> * * *​
> 
> 
> The foundation ceremony for the Aga Khan Museum, the Ismaili Centre and their park took place in a specially erected tent structure on a warm sunny afternoon in one of Canada’s most diverse districts – that of Don Mills. During the ceremony, *the Prime Minister bestowed upon His Highness the Aga Khan the honorary Citizenship of Canada following last June’s unanimous vote in the Canadian Parliament confirming the distinction on His Highness. At that time the Prime Minister had described the Citizenship as a recognition of the Ismaili Imam’s leadership* in promoting “development, pluralism and tolerance around the world and of his remarkable leadership as Imam of the worldwide Ismaili community.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Simerg.com)​



You're not going to change the mind of a xenophobe, Mark, but congrats for trying. 


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----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> I'm not a fan of Justin, but your attempt to mar his character/image by linking him to **gasp!** _a muslim_ **oh no!** is a little disingenuous, Don.


I didn't link him to anything Mark. The story did. 

I just read anything and everything about JT and the more I know the more i distrust him.


----------



## Dr.G.

Trudeau is planning to embark on a campaign-style tour, talking to average folks at coffee shops and church basements across the country. Just more blatant "cash for access" tactics. Buy him a couple of Tim Bits and you will be able to talk with the PM. Sad.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Trudeau is planning to embark on a campaign-style tour, talking to average folks at coffee shops and church basements across the country. Just more blatant "cash for access" tactics. Buy him a couple of Tim Bits and you will be able to talk with the PM. Sad.




I remember an episode of This Hour back in '93 or '94 when Jean Charest was working at a Tim Horton's for a litre extra cash after the PC party had been decimated. 


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----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> I remember an episode of This Hour back in '93 or '94 when Jean Charest was working at a Tim Horton's for a litre extra cash after the PC party had been decimated.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I recall that episode. Still, I think that just being a Canadian citizen (albeit one who voted for PM Trudeau) would be enough to get a moment of his time ......... and not have to buy him a double-double.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Trudeau is planning to embark on a campaign-style tour, talking to average folks at coffee shops and church basements across the country. Just more blatant "cash for access" tactics. Buy him a couple of Tim Bits and you will be able to talk with the PM. Sad.


I think its fabulous. It shows the depths they'll plumb to recover the Honeymoon High after the recent fall in his popularity polls: "Lookit The Hairdo! He's real people!" Barf... (where's that technicolor vomiting emoticon when you need it)

You can bet your sweet patootie that the fawning media will not bring to light any of the criticism he receives. It'll be sunshine, lollypops & rainbows everywhere.

I'd love to meet him on the street & have a Man to Hairdo conversation, just to set things straight. It _may_ be a bit one-sided...


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> I think its fabulous. It shows the depths they'll plumb to recover the Honeymoon High after the recent fall in his popularity polls: "Lookit The Hairdo! He's real people!" Barf... (where's that technicolor vomiting emoticon when you need it)
> 
> You can bet your sweet patootie that the fawning media will not bring to light any of the criticism he receives. It'll be sunshine, lollypops & rainbows everywhere.
> 
> I'd love to meet him on the street & have a Man to Hairdo conversation, just to set things straight. It _may_ be a bit one-sided...


True. PM Trudeau gets the Tim Bits and a double-double and we only get 10 minutes with him. Not fair.


----------



## FeXL

(FTFY) The Hairdo gets the gold mine. We get the shaft...

It would take far less than 10 minutes to get my point across.

BTW, I won't support Tim's, either.



Dr.G. said:


> True. PM Trudeau gets the Tim Bits and a double-double and we only get 10 minutes with him. Not fair.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> (FTFY) The Hairdo gets the gold mine. We get the shaft...
> 
> It would take far less than 10 minutes to get my point across.
> 
> BTW, I won't support Tim's, either.


Well, he is also attending church suppers, so you could meet him there, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Well, he is also attending church suppers, so you could meet him there, mon ami.




That'll be the day. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Trudeau is an idiot. 

Business leaders urge Morneau to set deadline for eliminating deficit - The Globe and Mail


----------



## FeXL

What? Don't you know that all of us on the Alt Right are God-fearin', church going citizens?

I'll have you know I missed the church Thanksgiving supper this past fall for the first time in decades.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That'll be the day.


----------



## SINC

Hmm, if true what a fool's errand these politicians are on:

Canada may already be carbon neutral, so why are we keeping it a secret? | Financial Post


----------



## SINC

Uh oh . . .

Is Wynne's Carbon Tax the Precursor to an Economic Catastrophe?


----------



## SINC

A good read on The Hairdo. 

Justin Trudeau's out of touch with the 99 per cent - The Globe and Mail


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> A good read on The Hairdo.


When even the Grope & Flail notices...

Interesting article. Many of those descriptors sound an awful lot like those used for Bill's elitist Wife. We know what happened there. beejacon


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Out with the old, in with the clueless. But I repeat myself...

Trudeau cabinet shuffle: Freeland promoted, Dion out



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will unveil a sweeping cabinet remake Tuesday, ushering out the Liberal old guard, demoting underperformers and recasting the cabinet to focus on the Donald Trump presidency and international trade.


Sweeping!!!

XX)


----------



## Macfury

Good to see Dion's global warmist ass being kicked out of there.



FeXL said:


> Out with the old, in with the clueless. But I repeat myself...
> 
> Trudeau cabinet shuffle: Freeland promoted, Dion out
> 
> 
> 
> Sweeping!!!
> 
> XX)


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Good to see Dion's global warmist ass being kicked out of there.


No argument.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I'm sorry. There's no corruption here. Cash is cash. We'll take it from anybody...

Trudeau’s Liberals were told donor was China graft suspect, but kept taking his money and help



> The Liberal Party of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was tipped off in 2013 that a wealthy party benefactor was wanted by China for corruption, long before the news became public, in an email that has been leaked to the South China Morning Post by a former party executive.
> 
> The former executive said they were assured at the time that the anonymous email and its startling claims about Vancouver developer Michael Ching Mo Yeung had been “dealt with”. But the party kept quiet and continued to accept donations and support from Ching and a pro-Trudeau political organisation, Tru-Youths United Association, set up in his office.


----------



## FeXL

Winnipeg man charged with human trafficking in Edmonton



> A Winnipeg man is facing 18 charges involving human trafficking in Edmonton.
> 
> Earlier this month Edmonton police got information that an 18-year-old woman had been sexually assaulted in the area of 154 Street and 111 Avenue.


More:



> Twenty-four-year-old Omar Abdi Ahmed, also known as Jojo, is facing charges of human trafficking, advertising sexual services, withholding travel documents, receiving a financial or material benefit from sexual services, advertising sexual services, sexual assault and unlawful confinement and other charges.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Winnipeg man charged with human trafficking in Edmonton


...and this belongs in *The Canadian Political Thread* because.....?


----------



## FeXL

Where else? No evidence he's a refugee. Yet...



CubaMark said:


> ...and this belongs in *The Canadian Political Thread* because.....?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Next it'll turn out to be a caucus retreat.



> _Liberal MP, party president joined Trudeau for his controversial Bahamas vacation with the Aga Khan._​
> But, "O'Regan said in a telephone interview Tuesday that no Canadian government business was discussed during his time on the island."
> 
> *How's the sobriety going, Seamus?*


M'bold.

<snort>

Enclosed link:

Liberal MP, party president joined Trudeau for his controversial Bahamas vacation with the Aga Khan



> To get to the Aga Khan’s island, O’Regan and his husband flew from Montreal to Nassau, the Bahamanian capital. In Nassau, the Aga Khan’s private helicopter took them south on about a 40-minute trip to Bell Island, located in an archipelago described as the “Hamptons of the Bahamas.”
> 
> *O’Regan said he is seeking to reimburse the Aga Khan for the cost of that helicopter flight.*
> 
> O’Regan referred a question about the method of transport the prime minister used to get from Nassau to Bell Island to Trudeau’s office. Purchase, Trudeau’s chief spokesperson, said her office was “not in a position to comment further.”
> 
> Federal law prohibits cabinet ministers and parliamentary secretarys, but not MPs necessarily, from flying on private aircraft.


M'bold.

Oh, sure. Now...


----------



## SINC

Yep, he is in like Flynn with the 'muslims'.

Liberal MP, party president joined Trudeau for his controversial Bahamas vacation with the Aga Khan | National Post


----------



## FeXL

Further on The Hairdo & coffee shop talk.

Kelly McParland: When Justin Trudeau corners you at Tim Hortons, you know the Liberals are in trouble



> Freshly back from the Bahamas, the prime minister is determined to *“re-establish his connection with grassroots Canadians.”*


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That just slays me.

Hey, Justin, here's a tip: Leave the silver spoon at home. It'll help to support the illusion that you & "grassroots Canadians" have absolutely anything in common.

Yuk, yuk, yuk!!! :lmao:


----------



## SINC

It is time Canada and its dum bass PM looked at the farce that is global warming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv60bC11qqc


----------



## FeXL

No biggie. With The Hairdo's auto-balancing budgets & carbon taxes, we've got nothing to worry about...

Pierre Poilievre: Trump could be about to take a BAT to Canadian jobs



> When it comes to trade, President-elect Donald Trump does not seem all that concerned about Canada. That doesn’t mean Canadian exporters should not be concerned about him.
> 
> While we will likely escape the targeted tariffs he plans against countries like Mexico and China, a revolutionary Republican tax proposal could damage Canada more than any other nation on earth.
> 
> It is called the Border Adjusted Tax (or BAT). It would mean American companies could no longer write-off the cost of imported goods. Only the costs of American-produced goods would be deductible.


What will it affect & how?



> The BAT would eliminate all U.S. corporate taxes on export income, so earnings from sales into Canada would be tax-free for American companies. Meanwhile, Canadian companies selling goods at home will continue to pay roughly 26 per cent in corporate tax, giving American businesses an advantage in our home market.


More:



> The Republican tax plan would also allow American businesses to write-off a capital investment in the year it was made, rather than gradually over the life of an asset, as is required of most industries in Canada. Imagine that an American company and a Canadian company each buy identical tractors on the same day. The American business writes it off immediately and can reinvest the tax savings the same year, while the Canadian competitor waits for savings to dribble back over decades. Who has the upper hand?
> 
> Then there is Trump’s plan to cut corporate tax from 35 per cent to 15 per cent, which is 10 per cent lower than the federal-provincial corporate tax rate in Canada. Finally, American businesses will not have to pay the new Liberal carbon tax and payroll taxes, nor the exorbitant electricity costs the Ontario Liberal government has imposed in Canada’s largest province.


----------



## Macfury

I hear Notley is wowing them in Fort Mac and Edmonton progs are applauding. Doesn't that count for something?



FeXL said:


> No biggie. With The Hairdo's auto-balancing budgets & carbon taxes, we've got nothing to worry about...
> 
> Pierre Poilievre: Trump could be about to take a BAT to Canadian jobs
> 
> 
> 
> What will it affect & how?
> 
> 
> 
> More:


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I hear Notley is wowing them in Fort Mac and Edmonton progs are applauding. Doesn't that count for something?


Well, it confirms a few things...


----------



## CubaMark

_...and here I thought_ Kellie Leitch_ was the most out-of-touch elite in the running for the PC leadership.... _

*O’Leary says Senate could become ‘profit centre’*

Businessman and potential Conservative leadership candidate Kevin O’Leary suggested Sunday morning that the Senate could become a “profit centre”.

In an interview with CTV Question Period host Evan Solomon, O’Leary said that while senators would “still have to be accredited” he would love for senators to commit financially to the position.

“I don’t know why we can’t have at least $100-$200,000 a year committed to each senator. Instead of it being a cost centre to Canada, why can’t it be a profit centre? It’s an interesting idea. I’m happy to float it,” O’Leary told Solomon. Currently, senators are paid a base salary of $145,400.

O’Leary told CTV that he’s “very close” to entering the leadership race, but he’s not interested in running in one of the six upcoming by-elections.​
(iPolitics)


----------



## SINC

If O'Leary decides to run, he has every bit as good a chance to become PM as the Donald did becoming the president. 

Many polls have shown that Canadians too, are fed up with politicians in general and would support real change to the tainted world of politics by an outsider.

Don't blame Trump or O'Leary, blame the people who are part of politics for the past 50 years, who have devastated the craft and soiled it forever.

The HairDo is helping to seal the fate of old style politics every day he breathes while in office.


----------



## Macfury

Nothing out of touch with the idea of Senators losing their salaries.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> _...and here I thought_ Kellie Leitch_ was the most out-of-touch elite in the running for the PC leadership.... _
> 
> *O’Leary says Senate could become ‘profit centre’*
> 
> Businessman and potential Conservative leadership candidate Kevin O’Leary suggested Sunday morning that the Senate could become a “profit centre”.
> 
> In an interview with CTV Question Period host Evan Solomon, O’Leary said that while senators would “still have to be accredited” he would love for senators to commit financially to the position.
> 
> “I don’t know why we can’t have at least $100-$200,000 a year committed to each senator. Instead of it being a cost centre to Canada, why can’t it be a profit centre? It’s an interesting idea. I’m happy to float it,” O’Leary told Solomon. Currently, senators are paid a base salary of $145,400.
> 
> O’Leary told CTV that he’s “very close” to entering the leadership race, but he’s not interested in running in one of the six upcoming by-elections.​
> (iPolitics)


A grand idea. Better still, if any senator does not show up for work for 7 consecutive days, the government can legally harvest their organs. XX)


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Nothing out of touch with the idea of Senators losing their salaries.


FWIW, I'm an abolitionist when it comes to the Canadian Senate.

That said, if the "Chamber of Sober Second Thought" is to remain, how in the hell can you believe that seats should go to the highest bidder? :yikes:

So much for "democracy" when the elites can (openly, blatantly, legally) buy power.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> A grand idea. Better still, if any senator does not show up for work for 7 consecutive days, the government can legally harvest their organs. XX)


Another grand idea, but flawed. You cannot harvest organs from a cadaver. The donor has to still be alive or the transplant will fail.


----------



## CubaMark

*Ruh-Roh!*

*"Bizarre GOP Scheme" Could Seriously Damage Canadian Economy*


----------



## Macfury

Not to the highest bidder. But I like the idea of putting down a deposit.



CubaMark said:


> FWIW, I'm an abolitionist when it comes to the Canadian Senate.
> 
> That said, if the "Chamber of Sober Second Thought" is to remain, how in the hell can you believe that seats should go to the highest bidder? :yikes:
> 
> So much for "democracy" when the elites can (openly, blatantly, legally) buy power.


----------



## Macfury

Zoiks! That sounds like the GOP establishment alright!



CubaMark said:


> *Ruh-Roh!*
> 
> *"Bizarre GOP Scheme" Could Seriously Damage Canadian Economy*


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> If O'Leary decides to run, he has every bit as good a chance to become PM as the Donald did becoming the president.
> 
> 
> 
> Many polls have shown that Canadians too, are fed up with politicians in general and would support real change to the tainted world of politics by an outsider.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame Trump or O'Leary, blame the people who are part of politics for the past 50 years, who have devastated the craft and soiled it forever.
> 
> 
> 
> The HairDo is helping to seal the fate of old style politics every day he breathes while in office.



Taint. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Good. It's not just SINC & I...

Watch: Trudeau Gets Booed At Oilers Game


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## macintosh doctor

i am celebrating with the announcement that O Leary will run for Conservative party leadership
he will clean the floor with trud'oh lol

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2uI0YxeVtXOAb6/giphy.gif


----------



## Freddie_Biff

En Francais, s'il vous plait, M. O'Leary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Ruh-Roh!*
> 
> *"Bizarre GOP Scheme" Could Seriously Damage Canadian Economy*


Trump already nixed this one.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> En Francais, s'il vous plait, M. O'Leary.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> En Francais, s'il vous plait, M. O'Leary.


It is time Canada dropped the dual language system now that 78% of us do not speak French. Good for O'Leary using English. French speakers will have to adapt to him.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> It is time Canada dropped the dual language system now that 78% of us do not speak French. Good for O'Leary using English. French speakers will have to adapt to him.



Perhaps we should drop the English part and just keep the French part. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

How about nobody tells anyone what languages to speak or write.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps we should drop the English part and just keep the French part.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> How about nobody tells anyone what languages to speak or write.



Don just did. Plus there's that pesky....what's it called.....Constitution.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Don just did. Plus there's that pesky....what's it called.....Constitution.


Sure is pesky. Whenever I have to do business with Quebec provincial government contacts, official bilingualism seems to stop at the border.


----------



## screature

O'leary clearly waited to see the results of the US election before deciding whether or not to run and after Trump was elected he decided, sure why not go for it.

The money if a pittance to him, he probably pays more for a month of dry cleaning.

But good for us we have limits as to what can be spent and by who, but not so much really. He will find a way around the spending limits, that is what he does as does Trump they work the "system" to their advantage. In that regard they are brilliant. But in that regard they are also despicable. 

If O'leary gets more than 10% of the vote in the CPC leadership race, I would not be surprised, just saddened... But the reality IMO is he will probably get more than 10% and may even win... Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.


----------



## macintosh doctor

SINC said:


> It is time Canada dropped the dual language system now that 78% of us do not speak French. Good for O'Leary using English. French speakers will have to adapt to him.


agreed - based on the current situation in Canada - languages are not being respected - especially the idiot Trudeau - who does a round in English speaking quebec and then answers the english audience in french.. enough with the games - put an end to them.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Yup. 3.5 billion people living in poverty is a good thing, according to Chump Jr. 
https://youtu.be/AuqemytQ5QA


----------



## screature

> Yup. 3.5 billion people living in poverty is a good thing, according to Chump Jr.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






I think O'Leary needs a better moniker than Chump Jr.

How about *Mr. D'Learious*?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. 3.5 billion people living in poverty is a good thing, according to Chump Jr.


No, he said it was good that the other people were wealthy.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> No, he said it was good that the other people were wealthy.



Right. Because watching the filthy rich squander their wealth has always been inspiring for people living from paycheque to paycheque.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

En Francais, s'il vous plait, M. O'Leary. C'est un grand pays et vous avez besoin de beaucoup de votes pour gagner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

That is worse than Trudeau. French is not used on ehMac for regular posts. O'Leary can't help here but he can change Canada.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> That is worse than Trudeau. French is not used on ehMac for regular posts. O'Leary can't help here but he can change Canada.



C'est un pays bilingue. Pourquoi ne désirez-vous pas voir de postes en français? N'aimez-vous pas notre pays? Êtes-vous prévenu?


----------



## Macfury

Win! Gagnez!

Stop! Arret!


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> C'est un pays bilingue. Pourquoi ne désirez-vous pas voir de postes en français? N'aimez-vous pas notre pays? Êtes-vous prévenu?


Dunno, can't understand a word you wrote. I am in the 78%.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Dunno, can't understand a word you wrote. I am in the 78%.



La constitution n'est pas une chose où les droits de la personne sont décidés par un sondage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

By all means, keep babbling, you are wasting your time.


----------



## SINC

Kevin O’Leary says French can wait, he’s fluent in ‘language of jobs’ - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## SINC

The sad truth . . .


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> By all means, keep babbling, you are wasting your time.



Google Translate, Don. It's not that hard. It's the half-asked effort at minimum O'Leary needs to make if he really want to take a run at PM. Even Harper could speak French, fercryinoutloud.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rps

So its better to have someone who can lie in both languages than it is to have someone who is honest in one! I'm not supporting Canada's Trump wannabe, I'm just saying when is being bilingual the sabre we should use to judge our leaders. Dion was a product of language bias.


----------



## SINC

Sorry, but I am tired of leaders shoving French down our throats since back in high school in the 50s. Enough. One country, one official language is the way it will become as French speaking Canadians continue to wane as the have been for decades. And drop the discrimination for Federal jobs requiring French and English as well. Cater to the 78% of Canadians who cannot speak or understand French.


----------



## Macfury

As I've said, I avoid contacting Quebec government departments like the plague--they're unilingual. In Ontario they force us to listen to French phone messages first--a total waste of time.


----------



## CubaMark

As a Canadian living in Mexico, folks here are constantly surprised that I don't speak French. Wish I did... more languages the better. One of my Mexican pals down here speaks five languages and is working on mandarin for his 6th. 

Never understood folks getting their panties in a twist about education. We should be encouraging more learning, not discouraging it due to some bull**** "inconvenience".

I took French class throughout highschool and a year of university, but it just wouldn't stick in my brain, possibly due to a childhood hearing impediment. Spanish came much more easily, with less of a nuanced approach to vowel usage


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> So its better to have someone who can lie in both languages than it is to have someone who is honest in one! I'm not supporting Canada's Trump wannabe, I'm just saying when is being bilingual the sabre we should use to judge our leaders. Dion was a product of language bias.



If you want to win, you need a significant chunk of both Ontario and Quebec, in addition to whatever regional support you have. It's just math. 


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----------



## SINC

As it should be:

Justin Trudeau’s French-only responses at town hall under investigation by commissioner | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Dr.G.

Trump and Trudeau look 'forward to meeting soon' after Saturday phone chat - Politics - CBC News

This should prove to be an interesting meeting, with NAFTA, pipelines, soft lumber and cross-border trade/travel some important topics. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Donald Trump to begin renegotiating NAFTA with leaders of Mexico, Canada - CNNPolitics.com

We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Britain's Prime Minister May to visit Trump in Washington - CNN.com

"London (CNN) — British Prime Minister Theresa May is set to visit US President Donald Trump in Washington on Friday, making her the first foreign leader to meet with the newly inaugurated president. " 

She is beating PM Trudeau to the punch. Still, NATO will be on the table rather than NAFTA.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> She is beating PM Trudeau to the punch.


Quelle surprise. Guess The Hairdo hasn't received instructions from Butts, his handler, yet. Probably still in shock...


----------



## SINC

Bump to see last post by FeXL.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Bump to see last post by FeXL.



Why? Sparky' posts tend to be kind of whiny.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Why? Sparky' posts tend to be kind of whiny.


Pardon my ignorance, but who is Sparky?


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but who is Sparky?


Ya just quoted his post...


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Ya just quoted his post...


Where did he get that nickname?


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Where did he get that nickname?


No juice...


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> No juice...


???? Unsure what you mean here. "No juice" as in a battery?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Why? Sparky' posts tend to be kind of whiny.


Get a grip, the thread was hung and I bumped it. End of story.

Ya know Frank, you are beginning to act like your favourite word on ehMac. 

I know FeXL in person and have for years. I have a great deal more respect for him than a school teacher who doesn't get simple math regarding the 40% wage cut.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> ???? Unsure what you mean here. "No juice" as in a battery?


Sure. Not firing on all cylinders. Light's on in the hallway but nobody's home. Not quite up to code. 

In this case, it's a pejorative, not a compliment like you'd give to a real electrician.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Get a grip, the thread was hung and I bumped it. End of story.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know Frank, you are beginning to act like your favourite word on ehMac.
> 
> 
> 
> I know FeXL in person and have for years. I have a great deal more respect for him than a school teacher who doesn't get simple math regarding the 40% wage cut.



For a second I thought that said, "I knew FeXL in prison and have for many years." Cheers, Don! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> For a second I thought that said, "I knew FeXL in prison and have for many years." Cheers, Don!


Well, that certainly confirms my suspicions.


----------



## SINC

I see the CBC has jumped on the chance to justify their habit of creating the news.

Psychologists say they can inoculate people against fake news - Technology & Science - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> I see the CBC has jumped on the chance to justify their habit of creating the news.
> 
> Psychologists say they can inoculate people against fake news - Technology & Science - CBC News


This is hilarious:


> They also presented them with the accurate statement — based on a 2013 study — "97 per cent of scientists agree on manmade climate change."


They ruined their own experiment. Only the fact that the study _claimed_ 97 per cent is accurate. The actual debunked study was complete garbage. They couldn't tell the difference between real and fake news themselves!


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> I see the CBC has jumped on the chance to justify their habit of creating the news.
> 
> Psychologists say they can inoculate people against fake news - Technology & Science - CBC News


You think these are the same people who created "Cap and Trade"?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

On the contrary, I think this is the very first time I've actually heard him being honest...

Trudeau says he ‘misspoke’ when suggesting oilsands need to be phased out



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he should have chosen different words when he talked about phasing out the oilsands earlier this month and unleashed anger in economically ailing Alberta.
> 
> “I misspoke,” he said Tuesday at the end of a two-day cabinet retreat in downtown Calgary, where the prolonged downturn in oil prices has emptied out floors and floors of office space.
> 
> *“I said something the way I shouldn’t have said it.”*


M'bold.

Right. You should have given us a tongue bath, all the while reaching behind our backs with the stiletto. That's much more like a politician...

Related:

I pick both!!!

Trump Supporter Tells Trudeau ‘You’re Either A Liar Or Confused’



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was called out for his fuzzy energy policy at his Tuesday night Calgary town hall meeting. A man wearing a “Make America Great Again” hat – a souvenir direct from President Donald Trump’s election campaign – said that Trudeau was either “a liar or confused.”
> 
> “You’re in Alberta now, sir. You’re not in Ottawa,” he shouted.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015, er, 1981!*

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Trump enacts a freeze, while Trudeau runs deficits



> *“While the president promises to get government off the backs off the people, Trudeau vows to put more government into lives.”
> 
> This is a line from a Sun editorial ... from 1981. That president was Ronald Reagan. The prime minister was, of course, Pierre Elliott Trudeau.*
> 
> Thank you to the reader who unearthed this piece from 36 years ago that could have been written today. As Yogi Berra said, it’s like deja vu all over again.
> 
> “The contrast is stark, dramatic, disturbing,” the editorial notes. “In the U.S., Reagan gives leadership by trimming spending, even in areas that are supposed to cost votes.”


M'bold.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The more things change, the more they stay the same...
> 
> 
> 
> Trump enacts a freeze, while Trudeau runs deficits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.




A freeze, eh? Except for the cost of building the wall, you mean.


----------



## CubaMark

Freddie_Biff said:


> A freeze, eh? Except for the cost of building the wall, you mean.


:clap::clap::clap:

...and *Conservative* researchers say deporting all the folks Trump wants to toss over that wall would run around *$400-billion*. _Some freeze!!!_ 

*The Conservative Case Against Enforcing Immigration Law*


----------



## Macfury

The cost is the accumulated cost of doing nothing--a law enforcement deficit. We do it for the same reason that we repair or replace a bridge that has been neglected for decades, even though the cost is the fault of previous generations.



CubaMark said:


> :clap::clap::clap:
> 
> ...and *Conservative* researchers say deporting all the folks Trump wants to toss over that wall would run around *$400-billion*. _Some freeze!!!_
> 
> *The Conservative Case Against Enforcing Immigration Law*


Wonder if we could save money by no longer enforcing all laws. Bet you it would be cheaper!


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## eMacMan

I know that high IQs are considered a detriment to becoming a police officer. Still even the dimmer bulbs on the string should be able to figure out that stopping a policemans fist with your face is not assaulting a police officer. 

Winnipeg woman found not guilty of assaulting police officer - Manitoba - CBC News


> A Winnipeg woman has been found not guilty of assaulting a police officer after an altercation on Halloween in 2014.
> 
> Lana Sinclair, 50, was found not guilty on the assault charge in a Winnipeg court on Tuesday morning, but said she was convicted of resisting arrest and her sentencing hearing is scheduled for April 18.
> 
> "What I was expecting was to be acquitted [of both charges] because of all the pictures and evidence presented," she told CBC Tuesday afternoon.
> 
> Sinclair, who is originally from the Fisher River Cree Nation, had been fighting the charges that stemmed from the night in 2014 where she alleges police actually assaulted her.
> 
> "It's been hell. It's been really a lot of hell. I only made $5,000 last year," she said, adding she's a self-employed fashion designer and Aboriginal teacher. "Usually I make $23,000 to $24,000 dollars."


----------



## FeXL

The 20% import tax on Mexican products will more than cover the cost of the wall. Do the math. Get somebody to help you if you can't figger it yourself...



Freddie_Biff said:


> A freeze, eh? Except for the cost of building the wall, you mean.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The 20% import tax on Mexican products will more than cover the cost of the wall. Do the math. Get somebody to help you if you can't figger it yourself...



The tax is paid for by the consumer. That would be a tax on the American consumer. Do your research, genius.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Precisely.

Financed by the taxpayer. Not gov't spending. Falls within the definition of a spending freeze. Learn math, genius...

BTW, I've read reports that this will cost $120 per US citizen. A far better deal than what Canadians get for their $36/year and MotherCorpse.



Freddie_Biff said:


> The tax is paid for by the consumer.Do your research, genius.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> BTW, I've read reports that this will cost $120 per US citizen. A far better deal than what Canadians get for their $36/year and MotherCorpse.


That's the built-in cost of prog policies inflating the price of the wall.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Precisely.
> 
> 
> 
> Financed by the taxpayer. Not gov't spending. Falls within the definition of a spending freeze. Learn math, genius...
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I've read reports that this will cost $120 per US citizen. A far better deal than what Canadians get for their $36/year and MotherCorpse.



How can you be for taxes and against taxes at the same time? The mind truly boggles.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> That's the built-in cost of prog policies inflating the price of the wall.


Collateral costs are almost never included. Example being the NDP carbon tax. Supposedly raising the cost of gasoline by 4.5¢ a liter. Ever seen gas priced at xxx point 4 at the pump? So that increase is already 5¢ a liter, except the trucks that transport from refinery to pump are now paying at least 6¢/liter more for diesel. Factor in that and the normal markup at wholesale and retail levels and Albertans are now paying at least an extra 7¢/liter for gasoline and truckers an extra 8¢/liter for diesel.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed. Products are cheap, policy is expensive.



eMacMan said:


> Collateral costs are almost never included. Example being the NDP carbon tax. Supposedly raising the cost of gasoline by 4.5¢ a liter. Ever seen gas priced at xxx point 4 at the pump? So that increase is already 5¢ a liter, except the trucks that transport from refinery to pump are now paying at least 6¢/liter more for diesel. Factor in that and the normal markup at wholesale and retail levels and Albertans are now paying at least an extra 7¢/liter for gasoline and truckers an extra 8¢/liter for diesel.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Ever seen gas priced at xxx point 4 at the pump?


FWIW gasoline here in St. Albert / Edmonton is frequently priced at xxx point 4 cents per litre by a few stations as GasBuddy clearly shows today.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Agreed. Products are cheap, policy is expensive.


Below is a graphical representation of the efforts by the usual suspects in here to defend their Orange ÜberFuhrer:










:lmao:


----------



## SINC

As I see it, the Trump presidency is and will continue to rock the political sphere in the US and abroad. It will forever change the way the US establishment treats its citizens in the future, when his single term is over. From that point of view it is a refreshing and long awaited breath of fresh air that will blow the stink of the corruption that is commonplace in politics away.

Kevin O'Leary would do the same for Canadian politics and I for one, hope he too gets a chance to change the face of the political world here too.


----------



## Dr.G.

"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
~ John Diefenbaker (From the Canadian Bill of Rights, July 1, 1960.)


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> "I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
> 
> ~ John Diefenbaker (From the Canadian Bill of Rights, July 1, 1960.)



My how Conservatives have changed since that sentiment was expressed. Well, the alt-right Conservatives anyway.


----------



## Macfury

Progs have attacked freedom consistently since the days of Diefenbaker. How the country has changed. Dief would be appalled.



Freddie_Biff said:


> My how Conservatives have changed since that sentiment was expressed. Well, the alt-right Conservatives anyway.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Progs have attacked freedom consistently since the days of Diefenbaker. How the country has changed. Dief would be appalled.



Again with the non-sequiturs. Stay focussed, Macfury.


----------



## Macfury

We are less free to speak, less free to spend the fruits of our labour and many normal, everyday actions that people in Diefenbaker's day took for granted are now regulated. Thanks, progs!


----------



## Beej

Dr.G. said:


> "I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
> ~ John Diefenbaker (From the Canadian Bill of Rights, July 1, 1960.)


Great quote. Haven't been around for a while, but this is as good a time as any to start again. Lurking only goes so far. beejacon

Good to see that my emoticon is still in use.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> Great quote. Haven't been around for a while, but this is as good a time as any to start again. Lurking only goes so far. beejacon
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see that my emoticon is still in use.



Welcome back, Beej! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

I jes luvs me a good, ol' fashioned battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I provide evidence that your statement about funding a wall & a gov't spending freeze are, in fact, reconcilable and you immediately throw in a red herring about supporting & not supporting taxes.

Quote the exact passage where I posted anything about supporting taxes or not supporting taxes. Anywhere on these boards and from any time frame that you choose. I'll wait...



Freddie_Biff said:


> How can you be for taxes and against taxes at the same time? The mind truly boggles.


----------



## Beej

I will eventually become more engaged in this thread. Baby steps.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E54K0Ei-8HM[/ame]


----------



## SINC

This is not hard to understand why.

Liberals less popular after Trudeau's town hall tour: Nanos survey | CTV News


----------



## Beej

Freddie_Biff said:


> Welcome back, Beej!


Thanks. Good to be back.


----------



## Dr.G.

Beej said:


> Thanks. Good to be back.


:clap::clap::clap: A voice of reason has returned. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Gotta love little boys...

Gotcha! School Kid Ambushes Trudeau



> An elementary school student at a town hall event for Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau Thursday appeared to rattle the usually insouciant leader by asking him, “Why did your dad give everyone in Western Canada the middle finger?”


----------



## Beej

Dr.G. said:


> A voice of reason has returned.


A voice of reasons. Many reasons. Sometimes the reason is, "because I like it that way."


----------



## Dr.G.

Beej said:


> A voice of reasons. Many reasons. Sometimes the reason is, "because I like it that way."


:lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> As I see it, the Trump presidency is and will continue to rock the political sphere in the US and abroad. It will forever change the way the US establishment treats its citizens in the future, when his single term is over. From that point of view it is a refreshing and long awaited breath of fresh air that will blow the stink of the corruption that is commonplace in politics away.
> 
> Kevin O'Leary would do the same for Canadian politics and I for one, hope he too gets a chance to change the face of the political world here too.


Kevin O'leary would not beat Trudeau in the next election cut and dry and so he will not be able to do the irreparable damage to our country that he has in mind. Personally I do not want a PM who thinks like this:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> "I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
> ~ John Diefenbaker (From the Canadian Bill of Rights, July 1, 1960.)


Yep, that is one of the reasons why Dief was my Dad's hero.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Kevin O'leary would not beat Trudeau in the next election cut and dry and so he will not be able to do the irreparable damage to our country that he has in mind. Personally I do not want a PM who thinks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I agree with your points, screature. O'Leary's comments about that this fact is "fantastic" is almost beyond belief. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Gotta love little boys...
> 
> Gotcha! School Kid Ambushes Trudeau


While it's a pretty sweet moment--the kid was obviously a set-up.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> While it's a pretty sweet moment--the kid was obviously a set-up.


While I do think as well that it was probably a planted question, I'm not so sure that it came from JT's team or the Liberal supporting teachers who planted it.

I have to say in general it was a pretty good answer, considering the question came from a grade-schooler who would not repudiate or call into question his answer, that is the kind of intellect that he does well with. That is his comfort zone.

Unfortunately, when it comes to Parliament and International politics where he has to deal with adults who are smarter than him he does not fair very well.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> While I do think as well that it was probably a planted question, I'm not so sure that it came from JT's team or the Liberal supporting teachers who planted it.


Parents...



screature said:


> Unfortunately, when it comes to Parliament and International politics where he has to deal with adults who are smarted than him he does not fair very well.


Yep!


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Parents...


Yes probably them as well.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

This is in terrible taste. It's appalling to make jokes about such a terrible tragedy.


----------



## Beej

This place has changed. Are 4chan-esque meme posts the norm? Oh well, when in Rome.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> This is in terrible taste. It's appalling to make jokes about such a terrible tragedy.



It's not a joke about the tragedy, genius. It's an observation about the hypocrisy of Trump's Muslim travel ban.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> This place has changed. Are 4chan-esque meme posts the norm? Oh well, when in Rome.



There are many sources of information and perspectives, Beej. If the Rebel Media counts as a relevant source, then there are pretty much are no limits.


----------



## heavyall

screature said:


> Unfortunately, when it comes to Parliament and International politics where he has to deal with adults who are smarter than him he does not fair very well.


Which is why he doesn't even bother to show up in the house 70% of the time.


----------



## Beej

Freddie_Biff said:


> There are many sources of information and perspectives, Beej. If the Rebel Media counts as a relevant source, then there are pretty much are no limits.


Possibly, but seems more like a point of personal convenience. The memedium is the message, and that message is not necessarily intended.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> Possibly, but seems more like a point of personal convenience. The memedium is the message, and that message is not necessarily intended.



I see that you are desperately trying to work the word "meme" into each response, but sometimes it just doesn't fit. Whether the pithy response comes by way of quote, meme, political cartoon, or epigram, if it fits, I'll use it. No apologies.


----------



## SINC

Using many large illustrations/memes/referees/etc. often defeats any intended purpose by turning off readers as simply more clutter rather than any reasoned or thoughtful opinion on issues.


----------



## Beej

Freddie_Biff said:


> desperately trying


Right. Keep up the good work. beejacon


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Using many large illustrations/memes/referees/etc. often defeats any intended purpose by turning off readers as simply more clutter rather than any reasoned or thoughtful opinion on issues.



Don, I can live without your "thoughtful" opinion on issues. More often than not you are simply cranky. If you don't like what I post, don't read it. But you forfeit the right to react to it.


----------



## SINC

Just trying to be helpful Frank and point out that repetitive habits lessen chances of people reading posts. Simple text well thought out gain more attention.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Just trying to be helpful Frank and point out that repetitive habits lessen chances of people reading posts. Simple text well thought out gain more attention.



I enthusiastically disagree, Don. Straight text is boring.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> I enthusiastically disagree, Don. Straight text is boring.


Perhaps you're borrowing these memes from sites catering to people with short attention spans.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Perhaps you're borrowing these memes from sites catering to people with short attention spans.


Matters not where they come from, it's where they end up that is repetitive and boring. So much so that I don't bother to read them any more. If that is the goal, it's being accomplished here every day.


----------



## FeXL

I think Freddie's use of them is fabulous.

Every time he posts another stupid meme he merely reaffirms just how cheap, transparent, lazy & flimsy his argument's really are.

Actual facts, empirical evidence, doesn't count in a Prog discussion. It's whoever can post the stupidest memes.

Freddie, you win!!!



Beej said:


> The memedium is the message, and that message is not necessarily intended.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

This piece of ****e. 










https://www.pressprogress.ca/ezra_l...o_make_money_off_quebec_city_terrorist_attack


----------



## Macfury

Your post is a visual mess, Freddie.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Your post is a visual mess, Freddie.



So don't look at it. Who said I'm posting for you?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> So don't look at it. Who said I'm posting for you?


When a dog takes a crap on the sidewalk, I don't worry about who he is crapping for.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> When a dog takes a crap on the sidewalk, I don't worry about who he is crapping for.


I could have ended up snorting milk out my nose, but breakfast was delayed. :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Now that everyone is distracted again... Jeebus.... how about actually looking at what that ****bag Levant said?

_Note to Ezra: the families of the victims deserve support, not you.

In the wake of Sunday's terrorist attack on a Québec City mosque that left six dead, right-wing demagogue Ezra Levant is facing heavy criticism for spreading false information and using the tragedy in a fundraising appeal for his Rebel Media website.

In a fundraising e-mail to supporters Monday, *Levant questions if "the mainstream media" is telling "the truth" about who the terrorist really is.*

Never mind that authorities have already charged a Québec-born white nationalist with six counts of first degree murder, *Levant – a repeated libelist whom Ontario's Superior Court found motivated by "ill-will" and a "reckless disregard for the truth"* – tells supporters the media is "less concerned" with accurate reporting than they are with "protecting the official narrative – Muslims are victims, not terrorists."

*Without any evidence,* Levant also asks if a Muslim congregant mistakenly taken into custody in the chaos of the mosque attack could be an "anti-Muslim murderer?" – "what's going on here," *Levant asks. "Did a Muslim attack a mosque?"*

Levant's e-mail concludes by soliciting donations to "uncover the truth."_​
Levant's message is available at the link above so you can see for yourself.

And if you go to QuebecTerror.com, Intrepid (giggle) reporter Faith Goldy (jeebus what a perfect name for this alt-right evangelical moron) continues to push the narrative that _you're being deceived! Don't believe what they tell you! Believe what *we* tell you!_:



> What's going on here? What are the facts? And can we trust the mainstream media to tell us the truth about such a controversial and sensitive subject?
> 
> We don’t know all the facts yet. But unlike the CBC, we intend to uncover the truth, not bury it.
> 
> So The Rebel sent Faith Goldy to Quebec City with a cameraman to report on the facts wherever they lead.
> 
> You can watch all of Faith's reports from Quebec City, which will be posted below.
> 
> Help cover the cost of Faith's reporting!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> When a dog takes a crap on the sidewalk, I don't worry about who he is crapping for.



Nope, you seem to have a real fascination with things that are not meant for you. Obsession even, I'd say.


----------



## CubaMark

Also still available online is Levant's donation page to cover _Faith Goldy_'s costs of flying to Québec, hotel, etc., to "uncover the truth". That page still promotes their sensationalist lies:



> What’s really going on at the mosque in Quebec City?
> 
> Two armed gunmen murdered 6 and wounded 19 more. It was a horrendous attack that must be condemned.
> 
> And immediately it was. But within minutes, before any facts were in, the mainstream media had already made up their mind about what happened: it was “Islamophobia”.
> 
> Some journalists — and even a Muslim Quebec politician — said that Donald Trump was to blame.
> 
> We don’t know all the facts yet. But unlike the CBC, we intend to uncover the truth.
> 
> So Faith Goldy has gone to Quebec City with our cameraman Alex. She’ll ask real questions, and follow the facts wherever they lead.
> 
> Booking a flight for Faith and Alex on short notice cost us $1,276. And two hotel rooms, for two nights, was another $560. Add in cab fare and some meals, and we’ll be close to $2,000.
> 
> If you can help us crowdfund the costs of this trip, please do — by clicking below.


*These bastards have no shame...*.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> Also still available online is Levant's donation page to cover _Faith Goldy_'s costs of flying to Québec, hotel, etc., to "uncover the truth". That page still promotes their sensationalist lies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *These bastards have no shame...*.




Rebel scum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Making unfounded allegations would be in poor taste. Crowdfunding a news gathering effort is not.


----------



## eMacMan

FWIW I would give Ezra about the same truthiness rating as say Faux News or CNN. Another way to say very close to zero.


----------



## eMacMan

Well this should come as zero surprise anyone! Trudeau is now just hunky dory with first past the post. As to his being a liar I will point out that he is a politician, one who is currently at the top of the parliamentary refuse heap. The words politician and liar are considered by most to be interchangeable. 

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-abandons-promise-change-voting-174116557.html



> OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is abandoning his long-held promise to change the way Canadians vote in federal elections — an about-face that has opposition rivals seeing red.
> 
> 
> In a mandate letter for newly appointed Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould, Trudeau makes it clear that electoral reform — once top of mind for the Liberal government — is no longer on the agenda.
> 
> 
> "Changing the electoral system will not be in your mandate," the prime minister writes in the letter, released Wednesday.
> ....


----------



## Macfury

He probably got the results of a poll taken this week that showed his government would do slightly worse under any other system.



eMacMan said:


> Well this should come as zero surprise anyone! Trudeau is now just hunky dory with first past the post. As to his being a liar I will point out that he is a politician, one who is currently at the top of the parliamentary refuse heap. The words politician and liar are considered by most to be interchangeable.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-abandons-promise-change-voting-174116557.html


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Also still available online is Levant's donation page to cover _Faith Goldy_'s costs of flying to Québec, hotel, etc., to "uncover the truth". That page still promotes their sensationalist lies:


What is sensationalist or untrue about it?

There most definitely IS something more going on than the official story is telling us, and they want to do some real journalism -- while everyone else just wants to look at who the guy follows on Facebook.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> Well this should come as zero surprise anyone! Trudeau is now just hunky dory with first past the post. As to his being a liar I will point out that he is a politician, one who is currently at the top of the parliamentary refuse heap. The words politician and liar are considered by most to be interchangeable.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trudeau-abandons-promise-change-voting-174116557.html


I don't see why anyone is surprised. It's been many decades since a Liberal PM actually did what he promised to do on the campaign trail.

When a Liberal leader tells you "If elected, I will ___________" -- regardless of what is in that blank, there is very little chance that he actually will.

There's a few ways to look at this. As someone who was opposed to the changes anyway, rather than gloating about Trudeau being just another Lieberal, I probably should be happy that I'm getting what I want even if the guy I wanted isn't in power . But some might see this as a strength on Trudeau's part -- "he listened to the people, etc" instead of accepting the fact that he never intended to do it in the first place. 

I think this is what I find so refreshing about how Trump is operating in the US -- he's doing what he promised to do instead of making excuses why he can't. People are so used to being lied to by politicians, that they are gob-smacked when someone ISN'T lying.


----------



## FeXL

heavyall said:


> What is sensationalist or untrue about it?
> 
> There most definitely IS something more going on than the official story is telling us, and they want to do some real journalism -- while everyone else just wants to look at who the guy follows on Facebook.


Exactly. This stinks to high heaven & has done so since the narrative first broke.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> What is sensationalist or untrue about it?
> 
> There most definitely IS something more going on than the official story is telling us, and they want to do some real journalism -- while everyone else just wants to look at who the guy follows on Facebook.





FeXL said:


> Exactly. This stinks to high heaven & has done so since the narrative first broke.


Would either of you care to elaborate? Something beyond _The Rebel_'s paranoid speculation? What exactly do you find wrong with the "official story"?


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Would either of you care to elaborate? Something beyond _The Rebel_'s paranoid speculation? What exactly do you find wrong with the "official story"?


The fact that several news outlets (including CBC) had absolute confirmation complete with survivor interviews that all corroborated TWO masked assailants shouting "Allahu Akbar" while shooting people. When you go back to their websites now, they've scrubbed almost all traces of it.

The fact that this particular mosque has a history of violent conflicts with another mosque in QC.

The fact that this particular mosque is a known front for the Muslim Brotherhood, and has been under suspicion of supporting terrorist cells for quite some time.

As I already mentioned, the fact that other "news" outlets seem to think that following a Facebook feed constitutes being involved in that organization.

I'm not claiming that Bissonnette did NOT do it, but it's very clear that there is more to the story that the MSM is not telling us. Even if whatever that more is turns out to be fully explainable, we all should be thankful that at least ONE outlet cares enough to bother doing the work to find out.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> Would either of you care to elaborate? Something beyond _The Rebel_'s paranoid speculation? What exactly do you find wrong with the "official story"?



There's no sense in trying to persuade an alt-righter to see the truth, Mark. Fake news and alternate facts is all part of the cultish brainwashing and these folks will brook no denial. Welcome to 2017.


----------



## heavyall

Freddie_Biff said:


> There's no sense in trying to persuade an alt-righter to see the truth, Mark. Fake news and alternate facts is all part of the cultish brainwashing and these folks will brook no denial. Welcome to 2017.


Still haven't seen any alt-righters here. If you think you are seeing them, again, all that says is you do not know what term means.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

heavyall said:


> Still haven't seen any alt-righters here. If you think you are seeing them, again, all that says is you do not know what term means.



I'm seeing an awful lot of similarities. If some people feel it's acceptable to call me a snowflake, then there should be nothing wrong with me calling them alt-righters. This is how it is with labels.


----------



## heavyall

Freddie_Biff said:


> I'm seeing an awful lot of similarities. If some people feel it's acceptable to call me a snowflake, then there should be nothing wrong with me calling them alt-righters. This is how it is with labels.


Again, the difference is we know what snowflake means, whereas you don't know what alt-right means. Labels still have meaning. If they don't apply, then the one try to use them in a nonsensical manner just looks silly.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

heavyall said:


> Again, the difference is we know what snowflake means, whereas you don't know what alt-right means. Labels still have meaning. If they don't apply, then the one try to use them in a nonsensical manner just looks silly.



Perhaps you could explain what you think snowflake means, because I find the term rather condescending and inaccurate.


----------



## Macfury

Accurate AND condescending.


----------



## FeXL

Heavyall's first point is the stickler for me.



CubaMark said:


> Would either of you care to elaborate?


Whatever you say, BoingBoing...



CubaMark said:


> Something beyond _The Rebel_'s paranoid speculation?


----------



## FeXL

Whom?

Exact quotes, please.



Freddie_Biff said:


> If some people feel it's acceptable to call me a snowflake...


----------



## FeXL

She must be doing something right...

Banner calls on Kellie Leitch to resign: ‘Hate puts us all at risk’



> Police are investigating a banner draped over Ontario MP Kellie Leitch’s constituency office that invokes the Quebec City mosque shooting and urges the controversial Conservative leadership candidate to resign.
> 
> The banner, stretching nearly the full height of the single-storey building, says, “Hate puts us all at risk,” and bears the names of the six people killed in Sunday’s mosque shooting in Quebec City, along with the hashtag #notmyMP.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> The fact that several news outlets (including CBC) had absolute confirmation complete with survivor interviews that all corroborated TWO masked assailants shouting "Allahu Akbar" while shooting people. When you go back to their websites now, they've scrubbed almost all traces of it.


Examples? Evidence? Google's cached versions of the webpages in question, or the WayBack machine, should provide you with the material needed to confirm this. Also, be clear: were these sites "scrubbed" or were they corrected with proper annotation to that effect? There's a difference.

As to the initial reports of two assailants: if I recall correctly, the initial reports indicated that one person shouted "Allahu Akbar". In the midst of a shooting incident, that could well be either the shooter shouting this in an act of mockery, or a worshipper calling out to his god for protection (always a futile act, but natural behaviour, one supposes). 



heavyall said:


> The fact that this particular mosque has a history of violent conflicts with another mosque in QC.
> 
> The fact that this particular mosque is a known front for the Muslim Brotherhood, and has been under suspicion of supporting terrorist cells for quite some time.


Examples? From real news sites, please, not _The Rebel_. The once incident that the mainstream press has mentioned following this latest attack was the delivery of a gift-wrapped pig's head to the mosque last year, with a "bon appetit" note attached. Not exactly the kind of "mosque-on-mosque" aggression that it appears you are referring. Quite the opposite: it indicates that someone with prejudice toward Muslims was sufficiently motivated to go to the effort to procure a pig's head and deliver it to the mosque — which in my mind is an escalation from basic prejudice toward worrisome action.



heavyall said:


> As I already mentioned, the fact that other "news" outlets seem to think that following a Facebook feed constitutes being involved in that organization.


I've seen sites mention the details of Bissonnette's Facebook "likes" of Marine LePen, Donald Trump, etc., but in the same story noted his other more innocuous interests.

Fox News, for example, played up his far-right leanings and tied in the Facebook posts.

Surely you aren't claiming that his "Likes" of Trump, LePen, anti-feminist, anti-multicultural, etc., persons and groups are irrelevant to his motivations?



heavyall said:


> I'm not claiming that Bissonnette did NOT do it, but it's very clear that there is more to the story that the MSM is not telling us. Even if whatever that more is turns out to be fully explainable, we all should be thankful that at least ONE outlet cares enough to bother doing the work to find out.


The ONE outlet doesn't care to find out... it -i.e., _The Rebel_- is solely interested in kicking the bee's nest of its right-wing curmudgeons and bigots to increase subscriptions so they can make a living selling hate. It's an excellent business model in the Age of Trump, particularly. Levant / Goldy have demonstrated ZERO commitment to actual journalistic ethics, but they have repeatedly shown that they will chase down any little detail that they can build a conspiracy around to convince (the already-convinced) that the big bad liberal media is trying to pull a fast one on 'em. I would think that people who are otherwise, apparently, fairly well educated and with a degree of life experience under their belts are so willing to give this little bigot and his band of manipulators any credence whatsoever, based on their history.


----------



## FeXL

Funny, in the initial reports I read (and I remember exactly), two people shouting & the same two people shooting.



CubaMark said:


> As to the initial reports of two assailants: if I recall correctly, the initial reports indicated that one person shouted "Allahu Akbar".


Right. Or, it could be part of a coverup by the much exalted but far less truthful MSM, the tool of the Progressive left...



CubaMark said:


> In the midst of a shooting incident, that could well be either the shooter shouting this in an act of mockery, or a worshipper calling out to his god for protection (always a futile act, but natural behaviour, one supposes).


What about his "Likes" of Parti Quebecois, NDP, Jack Layton? Surely you aren't claiming that these are less relevant?



CubaMark said:


> Surely you aren't claiming that his "Likes" of Trump, LePen, anti-feminist, anti-multicultural, etc., persons and groups are irrelevant to his motivations?


Blah, blah, blah...



CubaMark said:


> But...*The Rebel!!!*
> 
> 'Sides, _BoingBoing_ & _MotherJones_...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> ... or a worshipper calling out to his god for protection (always a futile act, but natural behaviour, one supposes).


In the midst of a tragedy, you couldn't resist a dig at religion.


----------



## CubaMark

_Why the Holy F**K would he do something so stupid? Or was it intentional - he covered his ass by tweeting about praying for the victims of the Quebec shooting the morning after it happened, now he's sending a wink to the bigots out there? 
_
*Kevin O'Leary video shows candidate at gun range as funerals for shooting victims begin*










A social media page belonging to Kevin O'Leary has posted a video of the Conservative leadership candidate shooting a handgun and several automatic weapons on the same afternoon a public funeral service was underway for three of the six victims of the Quebec City mosque attack.

The video was posted to O'Leary's Facebook page with the caption "Still got my marksman chops from my days as a military cadet at Stanstead College. Getting up at 5am was hard but worth it!"

The caption on the video itself features a plug for one of his deals from the Shark Tank reality TV show.

*The Facebook post went online at 12:45 p.m. ET. The public funeral for three of the six people shot to death on Sunday night in a mosque in the suburb of Ste-Foy began 15 minutes later.*

While the funeral was underway, O'Leary's Twitter account linked to the same video. That tweet now appears to have been deleted.



> Still have my shooting chops from my days as a Military cadet at @stansteadcolleg https://t.co/WZpOKKvVM6
> 
> — @kevinolearytv


The receptionist at the Lock & Load Miami: Machine Gun Experience & Shooting Range said she believed O'Leary's visit actually took place several months ago. 

The original video was posted to YouTube on* March 21, 2016.*
(CBC)​
It could only have been intentional. He went to the range a year ago, but posted it within 15 minutes of the Quebec funeral.

*Leadership materia*l,_ amiright?_

tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Conspiracy nonsense, CM.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Happiness is a warm gun.

Talk about timing. Perhaps it is a side effect of living in Boston for the last 20 years. Bang bang shoot shoot. 










http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/oleary-gun-range-shooting-thursday-1.3963724


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Conspiracy nonsense, CM.


So you think it was perfectly acceptable for Conservative Party leadership candidate O'Leary to post to his Facebook followers a video taken a year ago of himself firing off rounds in a shooting range and stating that he's "still got it", just minutes before Canada observed the funeral proceedings of victims of gun violence?

_Really?_


XX)


----------



## Macfury

I don't think it's meaningful. 



CubaMark said:


> So you think it was perfectly acceptable for Conservative Party leadership candidate O'Leary to post to his Facebook followers a video taken a year ago of himself firing off rounds in a shooting range and stating that he's "still got it", just minutes before Canada observed the funeral proceedings of victims of gun violence?
> 
> _Really?_
> 
> 
> XX)


----------



## FeXL

Yes.



CubaMark said:


> So you think it was perfectly acceptable...


----------



## SINC

The CBC mustn't have gotten their payola this week.

Trudeau's promise of electoral reform: From 'we can do better' to 'betrayal' - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> The CBC mustn't have gotten their payola this week.
> 
> Trudeau's promise of electoral reform: From 'we can do better' to 'betrayal' - Politics - CBC News


JT is allergic to anything that requires an extended period of effort--although he enjoyed the selfie phase of gathering research. He aso realized that a new system would make it harder for the Libsto win the next election. The CBC on the other hand, is hoping for a fractured government that will not target CBC budget cuts.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting question. Never thought about this before.

Why does ‘progressive’ Quebec have so many massacres?



> As Canadian politicians and journalists scramble for tidy, ideologically pleasing narratives in the wake of this week’s senseless slaughter at a Quebec City mosque, one disturbing fact has gone conspicuously unmentioned: *A disproportionate share of the country’s massacres occur in the province of Quebec.*


M'bold.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Interesting question. Never thought about this before.
> 
> *A disproportionate share of the country’s massacres occur in the province of Quebec.*



Don't forget Canadian prime minsters fall into this category too. tptptptp

Time for change.


----------



## SINC

Liberal waste is appalling and The Doo wears it.

More than half of Canadians say Justin Trudeau's tour was a waste of money, attempt to distract: Ipsos poll - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## FeXL

Waste of taxpayer's money? Perhaps.

However, the fallout from pi$$ed off voters was worth every cent. He walked into this thinking it would be a stroll in the park. In many instances, it was a trip through purgatory. I relished every time he got his ears pinned back.



SINC said:


> Liberal waste is appalling and The Doo wears it.


----------



## FeXL

As usual, Rex nails it.

Rex Murphy: There are fascists on campus. Protesters don’t realize it’s them, not Milo Yiannopoulos



> *I suggest, as a corollary to Orwell’s prescient observation that (I’m paraphrasing) some things are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them, that should you seek stupidity in depth and a full lock on all mental development, enroll in a prestige high-fee North American liberal university.* Further, I hold that whatever debates may be underway about the targets of Orwell’s dystopian Nineteen Eighty-Four, the modern university is the only institution that has taken that noble work for use as a manual.


My bold.

Yep...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Feds to give $372.5 million in loans to Bombardier 



> The federal government says it will give Bombardier $372.5 million in repayable loans over four years to support the Global 7000 and CSeries aircraft projects.
> 
> Most of the money would go to the Global 7000 business aircraft program, which is scheduled to go into commercial service next year.
> 
> The rest would go to the CSeries passenger jet, which was mired in delays and cost overruns prior to entering commercial service last year.


Can't say no to his key supporters...


----------



## FeXL

Wait... I thought there weren't any terrorists in Canada?:yikes:

FBI Reports Show Terror Suspects Coming From Canada While Trump Stares at Mexico



> FBI reports reviewed by The Daily Beast reveal that far more suspected terrorists try to enter the country from the northern border with Canada than from the south.
> 
> Seven FBI Terrorist Screening Center “monthly domestic encounter reports” dating from April 2014 to August 2016 detail the number, type, and location of encounters with known or suspected terrorists across the United States. The encounters are based on information in various watchlist databases. In all seven reports, the numbers of encounters at land border crossings were higher in northern states than southern.
> 
> “We are looking the wrong direction,” said a senior DHS official familiar with the data. “Not to say that Mexico isn’t a problem, but the real bad guys aren’t coming from there—at least not yet.”


Don't know how much I trust the FBI, after Bill's Wife's fiasco, but...


----------



## FeXL

Stupid, stupid, stupid...

Rona Ambrose’s yacht vacation keeps Conservatives mum on Liberal ethics



> The Conservatives on Monday abruptly put an end to questions about the Liberal government’s ethical woes after it was revealed interim leader Rona Ambrose vacationed in the Caribbean on a billionaire’s yacht at the same time she was blasting Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for his own lavish holiday.


Yeah, Ambrose doesn't have access to huge amounts of cash like The Hairdo but it's still a holiday on a billionaire's yacht. At best, it's terrible optics. At worst...


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> At best, it's terrible optics. At worst...


It does not look good. Sure, she's not the PM, and is not going to lead the CPC into the next election, but you still can't do things like that and expect not to get called on it. Add that to the long list of why I voted no on the referendum to break with party rules and allow Ambrose to run for the leadership. She's a placeholder, nothing else, and she's barely qualified to do that.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 1969!*

Justin Trudeau following his dad's bad fiscal planning



> A new study by the Fraser Institute suggests Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is taking the nation’s finances down the same black hole of never-ending deficits and debt that his late father did when he was prime minister in the 1970s and early 1980s.
> 
> “Because the federal government seems to be on the road to revisiting the damaging fiscal policies of the 1970s,” Lakehead University economics Professor Livio Di Matteo warns in, A Federal Fiscal History: Canada, 1867 to 2017, “Canadians should question whether we’re embarking on another transitional period ... that, like Lester Pearson’s and Pierre Trudeau’s time in office, *will lead to years of deficits and ultimately another debt crisis*.”


M'bold.

Nah. No way, no how The Hairdo has assured us that the budget will balance itself!

18% interest rates, here we come!!!


----------



## FeXL

Related to my post #19974 above.

MALCOLM: Terrorists are trying to sneak into Canada



> More than 300 foreign terrorists, spies and criminals who pose a risk to Canada’s national security tried to sneak into Canada last year, according to a report quietly released by the federal government on Monday.
> 
> It outlines all visa applications rejected between November 2015 and December 2016, and the grounds for refusal.
> 
> There were 310 cases where an individual was found inadmissible under Section 34 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (IRPA) — the section dealing with national security concerns.
> 
> Among these 310 were seven individuals rejected for “engaging in terrorism,” nine for “engaging in an act of espionage or subversion,” and 13 for “subversion by force” against any government.


But, I'm sure our superior vetting system got them all...


----------



## CubaMark

*Ezra Levant's New Book Gets Almost Everything Wrong*










Levant has been swinging wildly against the prime minister for years, but he’s rarely landed a punch. On the odd occasions he has connected, the pain inflicted has been his own, as with the 2014 televised “monologue” in which he dismissed Justin Trudeau’s father as a “slut” who would “bang anything,” and described his mother as a woman who “didn’t like to wear panties.” The Trudeaus, Levant has assured us, were a promiscuous couple that “publicized how many conquests they had had.”

Sun News Network, his employer at the time, issued an apology for Levant’s words. It was not the first time, but it would be the last; months later, the network went off the air.

* * *​
Levant’s obsession with the sex lives of the Trudeaus is anything but unique; it’s shared by those who comment regularly on the Facebook pages of Justin Trudeau Not, Canadian Patriots, the Conservative Party of Canada and, as might be expected, The Rebel. This past November, these same souls celebrated Donald Trump’s electoral victory, cheering the president-elect as someone who would put Justin Trudeau in his place. 

* * *​
This is a book written on the fly by a man who has never been bound by fact. My favourite Levant gaffe came last year when he claimed Winnipeg’s James Armstrong Richardson International Airport had been named after one of Pierre Trudeau’s cabinet ministers. The airport is in fact named after that minister’s father, a Canadian commercial aviation pioneer who died in 1939, when Pierre Trudeau was nineteen years old.
When reading Levant it is always good to keep in mind the words of lawyer Iain MacKinnon who, whilst defending the Rebel Commander in one of his many defamation suits, argued that Levant’s readers know his writing shouldn’t be taken “at face value.” I’m not sure that regular Rebel readers and viewers understand that, however. 

* * *​
The errors in Trumping Trudeau run from the trivial (Levant gets the length of our border with the United States wrong) to the disquieting (he shrinks the Jewish population of Canada, while inflating the number of Muslims). Just how the author got these things wrong is a mystery; Trumping Trudeau contains no citations, no footnotes, and there is no bibliography.

* * *​
....only someone who hasn’t read Chrystia Freeland’s internationally lauded Plutocrats could write that “it reads like a college student trying to make a thesis out of Robin Leach’s old TV show, Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.” (Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous being, of course, the program in which a certain orange-faced billionaire speculated about the future size of his infant daughter’s breasts.)

* * *​
A number of the Rebel Commander’s recommendations, however, look questionable, the foremost being that the PM should appoint former convict Conrad Black as Canadian ambassador to the United States. While it’s a real stretch to say that Baron Black is “plain-spoken” like Trump, it’s true that he lived for thirty-seven months in the United States—even if those thirty-seven months were in shelter provided by the American government. On the other hand, I question the advisability of appointing as ambassador a man who renounced his citizenship in order to sit in the House of Lords (this, after having called our country “an oppressive little world”). That alone seems to contradict Levant’s assertion that “Black won’t forget his first loyalty to Canada.”​(The Walrus)​


----------



## SINC

Yep, if the Liberals don't rid themselves of Trudeau soon, they will be unelectable in 2019.

Canadians deeply dislike Trump, but prefer him to Trudeau on economy, security: poll | National Post


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Yep, if the Liberals don't rid themselves of Trudeau soon, they will be unelectable in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> Canadians deeply dislike Trump, but prefer him to Trudeau on economy, security: poll | National Post




That's funny. Trump's ultimate effect on the economy will be the same as his effect on his own businesses: bankruptcy.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's funny. Trump's ultimate effect on the economy will be the same as his effect on his own businesses: bankruptcy.


If the US were a company, it would already be bankrupt after Obama doubled its debt to 20 trillion in eight short years. Never seemed to bother you then.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> If the US were a company, it would already be bankrupt after Obama doubled its debt to 20 trillion in eight short years. Never seemed to bother you then.



The US has been bankrupt for decades. When was the last time all their debts were paid off?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> The US has been bankrupt for decades. When was the last time all their debts were paid off?


Then why worry about Trump making a bankrupt nation bankrupt?


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> The US has been bankrupt for decades. When was the last time all their debts were paid off?


So should we just accept that? We Canadians are in a similar place, debt rising and rising with no end in sight. Should we just say "this is how it always is" and carry on spending away?


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> So should we just accept that? We Canadians are in a similar place, debt rising and rising with no end in sight. Should we just say "this is how it always is" and carry on spending away?


My question for Freddie is why is he predicting Trump will "bankrupt" America, since he never minded Obama doubling the debt to $20 trillion. It's just Trump Derangement Syndrome at work.


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> My question for Freddie is why is he predicting Trump will "bankrupt" America, since he never minded Obama doubling the debt to $20 trillion. It's just Trump Derangement Syndrome at work.


People want Trump to fail, which is scary. Whether you agree with him or not you should be hoping and cheering that he does what is best for America, not assuming everything he will do will be the end of the world. All this does is divide more and more and is not helpful.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> People want Trump to fail, which is scary. Whether you agree with him or not you should be hoping and cheering that he does what is best for America, not assuming everything he will do will be the end of the world. All this does is divide more and more and is not helpful.


Every time he announces a new major investment or a company willing to retain jobs in America there's outright anger and hostility from the left. They're so blind with rage that even good news makes them furious.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> My question for Freddie is why is he predicting Trump will "bankrupt" America, since he never minded Obama doubling the debt to $20 trillion. It's just Trump Derangement Syndrome at work.


Let's not leave Bush 2 out of the equation since he also doubled the debt during his tenure. 

The Global Warming alarmists need look no further than those 16 years to see what a real hockey stick looks like.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Let's not leave Bush 2 out of the equation since he also doubled the debt during his tenure.
> 
> The Global Warming alarmists need look no further than those 16 years to see what a real hockey stick looks like.


I don't think anyone denies that. But you would think after 8 years in office something would start changing and looking better. Same can be said about the Provincial Liberals in Ontario. They can no longer blame the past Conservative leadership for the financial crisis we are in, they have had more then enough time to get things moving in a better direction.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Let's not leave Bush 2 out of the equation since he also doubled the debt during his tenure.


I think Freddie was angry when Bush2 did it--just not angry when Obama did it. Of course it's a much greater achievement to double debt from $10 to $20 trillion.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I don't think anyone denies that. But you would think after 8 years in office something would start changing and looking better. Same can be said about the Provincial Liberals in Ontario. They can no longer blame the past Conservative leadership for the financial crisis we are in, they have had more then enough time to get things moving in a better direction.


Obama was still excoriating Bush to the last few months of his administration. I think Wynne has stopped blaming Harris--now time to blame the citizens of Ontario for not accepting her greatness.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Then why worry about Trump making a bankrupt nation bankrupt?



Because he sure ain't the economic saviour some people seem to think he is.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> People want Trump to fail, which is scary. Whether you agree with him or not you should be hoping and cheering that he does what is best for America, not assuming everything he will do will be the end of the world. All this does is divide more and more and is not helpful.



Trump will do what is best for himself. It's what he's already done. Did you notice his not-so-invisible hand manipulating the free market yesterday with respect to his daughter's company? This man could care less about what's good for America. If you honestly believe he will "make America great again," you've been sipping a little too much of the GOP koolaid/Flavor Aid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Trump will do what is best for himself. It's what he's already done. Did you notice his not-so-invisible hand manipulating the free market yesterday with respect to his daughter's company? This man could care less about what's good for America. If you honestly believe he will "make America great again," you've been sipping a little too much of the GOP koolaid/Flavor Aid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oops. Is 'counseled' like being scolded???? Is it fake news if it was said on Fox???

"On Fox News, an interviewer raised the subject of Ivanka Trump. Conway praised her as a "very successful businesswoman" and a "champion for women empowerment," and offered statistics about how many stores sell her merchandise. 

"Go buy Ivanka's stuff, is what I would tell you," Conway said. "It's a wonderful line. I own some of it. I fully -- I'm going to just, I'm going to give a free commercial here: Go buy it today, everybody. You can find it online." 

Federal law says that public employees may not use their positions "for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise, or for the private gain of friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity." "

Kellyanne Conway 'counseled' after plugging Ivanka Trump merchandise - Feb. 9, 2017


----------



## Macfury

Tired old phrasing--most of the GOP hates him.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Trump will do what is best for himself. It's what he's already done. Did you notice his not-so-invisible hand manipulating the free market yesterday with respect to his daughter's company? This man could care less about what's good for America. If you honestly believe he will "make America great again," you've been sipping a little too much of the GOP koolaid/Flavor Aid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Oops. Is 'counseled' like being scolded???? Is it fake news if it was said on Fox???
> 
> 
> 
> "On Fox News, an interviewer raised the subject of Ivanka Trump. Conway praised her as a "very successful businesswoman" and a "champion for women empowerment," and offered statistics about how many stores sell her merchandise.
> 
> 
> 
> "Go buy Ivanka's stuff, is what I would tell you," Conway said. "It's a wonderful line. I own some of it. I fully -- I'm going to just, I'm going to give a free commercial here: Go buy it today, everybody. You can find it online."
> 
> 
> 
> Federal law says that public employees may not use their positions "for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise, or for the private gain of friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity." "
> 
> 
> 
> Kellyanne Conway 'counseled' after plugging Ivanka Trump merchandise - Feb. 9, 2017



Either this administration's days are numbered, or America's days as a free and democratic society are. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Tired old phrasing--most of the GOP hates him.



Didn't really ask for your opinion on my phrasing, but thanks, Mr. Helper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I wish you would ask more often... always ready to serve!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Didn't really ask for your opinion on my phrasing, but thanks, Mr. Helper.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Either this administration's days are numbered, or America's days as a free and democratic society are.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I disagree with both of your points, mon ami. Hopefully, the administration will be gone in four years, and the US democratic society will survive ............. even with a Pres. Trump. Paix.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sarah Palin for ambassador to Canada? | Metro Ottawa

I'll believe it when I hear it on Fox News.


----------



## Dr.G.

PM Trudeau to meet with Pres. Trump next week. Should be an interesting meeting. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

Freddie_Biff said:


> Either this administration's days are numbered, or America's days as a free and democratic society are.


:lmao: Oh, dude... that ship has _sailed!_ :lmao:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

.


----------



## SINC

About time for this to happen. I bet he will be removed as leader before the next election. 

Trudeau Approval Rating Turns Negative: Poll

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2017/02/10/trudeau-approval-rating-turns-negative-poll/


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> About time for this to happen. I bet he will be removed as leader before the next election.
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau Approval Rating Turns Negative: Poll
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/2017/02/10/trudeau-approval-rating-turns-negative-poll/



Removed by whom exactly?


----------



## SINC

By his own party, the only people who can of course.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> By his own party, the only people who can of course.



It's more likely that the GOP would try to remove Trump than the Liberal Party try to remove Trudeau. Outside of Alberta, his approval is quite respectable. Just like the old man.


----------



## Macfury

Outside of Alberta, Notley's approval is quite respectable.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Outside of Alberta, Notley's approval is quite respectable.



That's true. And for a sizeable segment of the Alberta population, it's also true. And at the rate the PC's and the WR's are heading toward a fiery collision, she only needs to be more popular than the other two alternatives. They're not looking like they'll have their ****e together by the next election.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's true. And for a sizeable segment of the Alberta population, it's also true.


Uh ... no. 75% of Albertans want her gone last poll I saw.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Uh ... no. 75% of Albertans want her gone last poll I saw.


Yep. 25% is not sizable. She's done like dinner... thank goodness.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Uh ... no. 75% of Albertans want her gone last poll I saw.




Uh huh. And what percentage support either the PC, WildRose or one of the other many variations of right wing parties? And what percentage support a merger of the parties on the right? Also, what is the current price of gasoline in St.Albert? I just filled up today for 88 cents/litre. If that carbon tax is supposed to rob us blind, I'm just not seeing it yet.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh huh. And what percentage support either the PC, WildRose or one of the other many variations of right wing parties? And what percentage support a merger of the parties on the right? Also, what is the current price of gasoline in St.Albert? I just filled up today for 88 cents/litre. If that carbon tax is supposed to rob us blind, I'm just not seeing it yet.


Last poll I saw had WR support at over 30% and PC over 25%, both well ahead of the NDP.

As for that carbon tax, I suspect you haven't looked at your natural gas bill yet. My "carbon levy" charade cost me $26 for January.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Last poll I saw had WR support at over 30% and PC over 25%, both well ahead of the NDP.
> 
> 
> 
> As for that carbon tax, I suspect you haven't looked at your natural gas bill yet. My "carbon levy" charade cost me $26 for January.



$26 Is far cry from the hundreds and hundreds the fearmongers have been beaking off about. And that's offset by the decreased cost of gasoline. And for what it's worth, 25% and 30% are nit far off of 25% for the NDP. Unless Brian Jean and Jason Kenney can call off their pissing contest and
One of them surrender, like Peter Mackay did, these bozos won't have it together in time for 2019. Plus Rachel could call a snap election and catch them with their pants down, like Jim Prentice tried to do last time.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> $26 Is far cry from the hundreds and hundreds the fearmongers have been beaking off about. And that's offset by the decreased cost of gasoline. And for what it's worth, 25% and 30% are nit far off of 25% for the NDP. Unless Brian Jean and Jason Kenney can call off their pissing contest and
> One of them surrender, like Peter Mackay did, these bozos won't have it together in time for 2019. Plus Rachel could call a snap election and catch them with their pants down, like Jim Prentice tried to do last time.


Multiply that $26 by 12 and make that $39 in 2018. And stop with the BS about gas prices. No matter the price, it is inflated by 4.5 cents per litre and should be 83, not 88 right now without the gough tax.


----------



## Dr.G.

Pre-clearance bill would give U.S. border agents in Canada new powers - Politics - CBC News

This scares me ......... and it's coming from a Liberal government 

"The bill would enshrine in law a reciprocal agreement for customs and immigration pre-clearance signed by the governments of Stephen Harper and Barack Obama in 2015. Both houses of Congress passed the U.S. version of the bill in December.

Michael Greene, an immigration lawyer in Calgary, says C-23 takes away an important right found in the existing law.

"A Canadian going to the U.S. through a pre-clearance area [on Canadian soil] can say: 'I don't like the way [an interview is] going and I've chosen not to visit your country.' And they can just turn around and walk out.

"Under the new proposed bill, they wouldn't be able to walk out. They can be held and forced to answer questions, first to identify themselves, which is not so offensive, but secondly, to explain the reasons for leaving, and to explain their reasons for wanting to withdraw," said Greene, who is national chair of the Canadian Bar Association's citizenship and immigration section.

"And that's the part we think could be really offensive and goes too far." "


----------



## Dr.G.

Liberal superhero Justin Trudeau is not immune to the forces of Trump - CNNPolitics.com

Wow! CNN is calling PM Trudeau a "super hero" .................. able to leap tall buildings in a single bound ................


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...eau-prime-minister-joe-trudeau-of-canada.html

“Yesterday the president set — had an incredibly productive set of meetings and discussions with Prime Minster Joe Trudeau of Canada,” he said, “focusing on our shared commitment to close co-operation in addressing both the challenges facing our two countries and the problems throughout the world. Our countries share a profound economic interest, with more than $2 billion in two-way trade flowing across our border every day.”


----------



## CubaMark

Honest mistake. Trump's cabinet probably prepped for his visit by watching this Molson's commercial a few times:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg[/ame]

.
*My name is JOE, and I AM CANADIAN!*

:lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Honest mistake. Trump's cabinet probably prepped for his visit by watching this Molson's commercial a few times:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg
> 
> .
> *My name is JOE, and I AM CANADIAN!*
> 
> :lmao:


:clap::lmao::clap:


----------



## eMacMan

Glacial retreats seem incredibly rapid when compared to Canadian Justice. Witness this story, which for some reason Marc did not get to ahead of me.

Mi'kmaq grand chief vindicated 89 years after conviction for hunting ‘illegally'

Only 89 years to get it right.


----------



## CubaMark

*EDIT: Original Post below for the record. 

I agree with MacFury: Mallick erred in tying the Conservatives' laughter to the bus driver stabbing, the video (thanks Beej!) clearly shows the laughter came before the mention of the murder.

The laughter from the Conservatives was directed to Minister Sohi's initial words in reply to a question from a Liberal backbencher regarding transit improvements, to which Sohi made mention of his previous job as a bus driver. 

In that new light, I remain a little befuddled as to the reason for the laughter, as Sohi's intent was to show that he knows what it's like to do that kind of work, and by extension understands the challenges faced by those workers. I don't know why that deserves a risible response.

In any case, Mallick should issue a retraction / clarification.

M.*

* * *

*Some pretty disgusting behaviour by some Conservatives MP this week:*

*In what world is it laughable to drive a bus for a living?*










A federal cabinet minister, troubled by the recent murder of a Winnipeg bus driver, stood in the House of Commons this week to pay tribute. He began by saying that he too had once worked as a bus driver. The room erupted, with mocking laughter exploding from the opposition benches. It was prolonged.

Amarjeet Sohi, minister of infrastructure and Liberal MP for Edmonton Mill Woods, was saying, “Mr. Speaker, as a former bus driver I want to convey our thoughts and prayers . . .” when he was drowned out. For what could be more risible than a sweaty bus driver becoming one of them?

** * **​
Will interim Conservative Leader Rona “billionaire lifestyle” Ambrose reprimand her MPs for cruel snobbery? Will elitist Kellie “I have 22 letters after my name, I am not an idiot” Leitch hush her colleagues?

** * **​
My problem is not the hate fringe in the Conservative Party — there will always be one — but its mainstream. In what world is it laughable to drive a bus for a living? That Winnipeg driver was stabbed to death at 2 a.m. Imagine his pain, his fear, his blood staining the snow.

Until I read Paula Simon in the Edmonton Journal, I had not known that in the 1980s young Sohi was beaten and tortured in India, then held without charge for nearly two years, mostly in solitary confinement.

He came to Canada in 1981 with almost no English, and became a three-term Edmonton city councillor before entering federal politics. But first, he drove a bus. It was honest work. He took fares, dealt with abusive people, guided them, helped them and paid his way. This was how he began to know his city.

I don’t know what jobs are socially acceptable to Conservative MPs. They seem to despise the uniformed, cap-wearing, greasy-handed types who vote for them.
(The Star)​


----------



## Macfury

More fake news.

The were laughing at the softball question directed at him immediately prior:



> Don Rusnak, MP for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON: Mr. Speaker, many residents of my riding of Thunder Bay—Rainy River rely on public transit to get to school, work, or doctors’ appointments. In the fall, Thunder Bay received more than $6 million for new buses, transit shelters, and bus stop signage improvements, and on Friday, I was pleased to announce a new handi-van bus in Fort Frances. These investments will mean better transit services for the residents of my riding.
> 
> Could the minister explain how public transit investments are supporting communities like mine by growing the middle class and getting people home faster? (Rising noise from MPs)


For some bizarre reason, Sohi pivoted into the condolences.



CubaMark said:


> *Some pretty disgusting behaviour by some Conservatives MP this week:*
> 
> *In what world is it laughable to drive a bus for a living?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A federal cabinet minister, troubled by the recent murder of a Winnipeg bus driver, stood in the House of Commons this week to pay tribute. He began by saying that he too had once worked as a bus driver. The room erupted, with mocking laughter exploding from the opposition benches. It was prolonged.
> 
> Amarjeet Sohi, minister of infrastructure and Liberal MP for Edmonton Mill Woods, was saying, “Mr. Speaker, as a former bus driver I want to convey our thoughts and prayers . . .” when he was drowned out. For what could be more risible than a sweaty bus driver becoming one of them?
> 
> ** * **​
> Will interim Conservative Leader Rona “billionaire lifestyle” Ambrose reprimand her MPs for cruel snobbery? Will elitist Kellie “I have 22 letters after my name, I am not an idiot” Leitch hush her colleagues?
> 
> ** * **​
> My problem is not the hate fringe in the Conservative Party — there will always be one — but its mainstream. In what world is it laughable to drive a bus for a living? That Winnipeg driver was stabbed to death at 2 a.m. Imagine his pain, his fear, his blood staining the snow.
> 
> Until I read Paula Simon in the Edmonton Journal, I had not known that in the 1980s young Sohi was beaten and tortured in India, then held without charge for nearly two years, mostly in solitary confinement.
> 
> He came to Canada in 1981 with almost no English, and became a three-term Edmonton city councillor before entering federal politics. But first, he drove a bus. It was honest work. He took fares, dealt with abusive people, guided them, helped them and paid his way. This was how he began to know his city.
> 
> I don’t know what jobs are socially acceptable to Conservative MPs. They seem to despise the uniformed, cap-wearing, greasy-handed types who vote for them.
> (The Star)​


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> *Some pretty disgusting behaviour by some Conservatives MP this week:*
> 
> 
> 
> *In what world is it laughable to drive a bus for a living?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A federal cabinet minister, troubled by the recent murder of a Winnipeg bus driver, stood in the House of Commons this week to pay tribute. He began by saying that he too had once worked as a bus driver. The room erupted, with mocking laughter exploding from the opposition benches. It was prolonged.
> 
> 
> 
> Amarjeet Sohi, minister of infrastructure and Liberal MP for Edmonton Mill Woods, was saying, “Mr. Speaker, as a former bus driver I want to convey our thoughts and prayers . . .” when he was drowned out. For what could be more risible than a sweaty bus driver becoming one of them?
> 
> 
> 
> ** * **​
> 
> 
> Will interim Conservative Leader Rona “billionaire lifestyle” Ambrose reprimand her MPs for cruel snobbery? Will elitist Kellie “I have 22 letters after my name, I am not an idiot” Leitch hush her colleagues?
> 
> 
> 
> ** * **​
> 
> 
> My problem is not the hate fringe in the Conservative Party — there will always be one — but its mainstream. In what world is it laughable to drive a bus for a living? That Winnipeg driver was stabbed to death at 2 a.m. Imagine his pain, his fear, his blood staining the snow.
> 
> 
> 
> Until I read Paula Simon in the Edmonton Journal, I had not known that in the 1980s young Sohi was beaten and tortured in India, then held without charge for nearly two years, mostly in solitary confinement.
> 
> 
> 
> He came to Canada in 1981 with almost no English, and became a three-term Edmonton city councillor before entering federal politics. But first, he drove a bus. It was honest work. He took fares, dealt with abusive people, guided them, helped them and paid his way. This was how he began to know his city.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know what jobs are socially acceptable to Conservative MPs. They seem to despise the uniformed, cap-wearing, greasy-handed types who vote for them.
> 
> (The Star)​



And this is one of the big reasons the Conservatives were tossed out after the last election: arrogance.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> And this is one of the big reasons the Conservatives were tossed out after the last election: arrogance.


Did you even read my post prior to yours?


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> More fake news.
> 
> The were laughing at the softball question directed at him immediately prior:
> 
> 
> 
> For some bizarre reason, Sohi pivoted into the condolences.


There should be full video from parliament to decide. No need to rely on selected outlets of outrage. Granted, I'm too lazy to look it up, but if someone thinks this is notable, let there be video.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> There should be full video from parliament to decide. No need to rely on selected outlets of outrage. Granted, I'm too lazy to look it up, but if someone thinks this is notable, let there be video.



All of the viral video eliminates the cause of the laughter and deliberately focuses on the BS about Sohi. Here is the transcript:



> Don Rusnak, MP for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON: Mr. Speaker, many residents of my riding of Thunder Bay—Rainy River rely on public transit to get to school, work, or doctors’ appointments. In the fall, Thunder Bay received more than $6 million for new buses, transit shelters, and bus stop signage improvements, and on Friday, I was pleased to announce a new handi-van bus in Fort Frances. These investments will mean better transit services for the residents of my riding.
> 
> Could the minister explain how public transit investments are supporting communities like mine by growing the middle class and getting people home faster? (Rising noise from MPs)
> 
> Amarjeet Sohi, Minister of Infrastructure and Communities: Mr. Speaker, as a former bus driver I want to (laughter from MPs) convey our thoughts and prayers (“What’s the matter with that?” “Wow.”) for the Winnipeg Transit bus operator who was stabbed last night while serving his community and on duty.
> 
> I want to thank the hon. member for his question and his hard work. (Burst of moderate noise from MPs) On Friday, in partnership with the municipalities and the Province of Ontario, we announced 79 transit projects in 29 municipalities. From new buses in Milton, Renfrew, and Orillia, to new transit shelters in Huntsville—


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Did you even read my post prior to yours?



Probably not. Sorry to break it to you, but I don't read everything you post.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Probably not. Sorry to break it to you, but I don't read everything you post.




I read everything you post .......................


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> All of the viral video eliminates the cause of the laughter and deliberately focuses on the BS about Sohi. Here is the transcript:


CPAC videos, Feb 14 question period, around 27:15 for the full context.
http://www.cpac.ca/en/digital-archives/

There is rumbling after the standard friendly softball, but the laughter clearly erupts after the bus driver comment.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> CPAC videos, Feb 14 question period, around 27:15 for the full context.
> 
> http://www.cpac.ca/en/digital-archives/
> 
> 
> 
> There is rumbling after the standard friendly softball, but the laughter clearly erupts after the bus driver comment.



Never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> CPAC videos, Feb 14 question period, around 27:15 for the full context.
> http://www.cpac.ca/en/digital-archives/
> 
> There is rumbling after the standard friendly softball, but the laughter clearly erupts after the bus driver comment.


Not because he's a bus driver, but because the comment is used as part of the answer to the softball question. It would be like asking a politician about the great work the party did in supporting a local furniture factory and answering--"As a person who sits on wooden chairs..."


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!


What would be the nature of the conspiracy?


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I read everything you post .......................



Yes, as a matter of courtesy I read everything in the threads to which I'm subscribed.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Not because he's a bus driver, but because the comment is used as part of the answer to the softball question. It would be like asking a politician about the great work the party did in supporting a local furniture factory and answering--"As a person who sits on wooden chairs..."


Then we disagree. Seems clear to me the laughter is in response to using the "bus driver card". Bad form from the Conservatives, and earned negative media coverage.

A more accurate analogy would be, "as a person who delivered furniture...". The missing element in your analogy is a job.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Yes, as a matter of courtesy I read everything in the threads to which I'm subscribed.


Good point, mon ami. I just read everything in the threads of which interest me.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Good point, mon ami. I just read everything in the threads of which interest me.



I see it as more of a buffet. If I have no desire to eat creamed spinach, I don't eat the creamed spinach because I know it has triggers built into it. In other words, you don't have to show up to every argument to which you're invited.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> I see it as more of a buffet. If I have no desire to eat creamed spinach, I don't eat the creamed spinach because I know it has triggers built into it. In other words, you don't have to show up to every argument to which you're invited.


That is exactly what I do, Frank. I may read everything in a particular thread, but choose not to partake in the back and forth and back and forth and back and forth arguments that are seemingly never ending. And, while I don't mind creamed spinach, I don't even open certain threads that are of no interest to me (e.g., The Shangri-La Clubhouse and the Weather threads). 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

The analogy to occupation is not necessary. This is really a matter of perception of humour. I would have laughed too, not because he was a bus driver, but because he appears to think the fact is relevant to the previous ridiculous question. Only the fact that he unexpectedly veers into the death of the Winnipeg bus driver turns it into pathos.



Beej said:


> Then we disagree. Seems clear to me the laughter is in response to using the "bus driver card". Bad form from the Conservatives, and earned negative media coverage.
> 
> A more accurate analogy would be, "as a person who delivered furniture...". The missing element in your analogy is a job.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The were laughing at the softball question directed at him immediately prior:


MF: I agree with you on the timeline. See my amended post above.



Macfury said:


> For some bizarre reason, Sohi pivoted into the condolences.


I don't see it as that bizarre, it seemed an appropriate moment to bring it up.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Seems the Conservatives stuck their collective foot in their mouth. Did they ever apologize for laughing inappropriately? That's the only way out it seems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Seems the Conservatives stuck their collective foot in their mouth. Did they ever apologize for laughing inappropriately? That's the only way out it seems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a typical smokescreen issue, along with gun control and abortion. These issues are generally used to draw attention away from far more seditious political shenanigans.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> MF: I agree with you on the timeline. See my amended post above.
> 
> I don't see it as that bizarre, it seemed an appropriate moment to bring it up.


I appreciate your honesty, CM.

Bizarre might be the wrong term. Unexpected, in that it seemed it was going to be about the Liberal record on municipal transit funding.


----------



## Dr.G.

Former PM Brian Mulroney serenades President Donald Trump at fundraiser | The Chronicle Herald

After singing, Mr. Mulroney was told by Donald J. Trump that “relationships are just great between Canada and the United States. Justin had a terrific trip down to Washington.”

Justin who? I thought it was Joe.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> The were laughing at the softball question directed at him immediately prior:


To be clear, this claim is retracted, and the revised claim is that the laughter is at the response to the softball question? That's plausible.

Other than that, we just disagree on how the laughter is perceived. I see an own goal, you see something else.


----------



## Beej

*Conservative Party Leadership Race*

Interested in who ehmacers prefer / dislike the least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_of_Canada_leadership_election,_2017

Bernier stands out for me, offering a distinct difference from the Liberals and some good policy ideas. I also like Chong, mostly for his previous work on candidacy rules (the thing that makes Canadian party leaders so powerful).

Who is your pick, regardless of your partisan stance?


----------



## SINC

I have not yet made up my mind, but I do know one thing. I will not support another leader from Quebec for any party. It is time for change.


----------



## Macfury

Bernier is so far in the libertarian camp that I would support him vigorously, despite his Quebec credentials.


----------



## SINC

My sentiments exactly.


----------



## SINC

Yep, pretty much.

Here's why I fear Islam, Prime Minister | Goldstein | Columnists


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Who is your pick, regardless of your partisan stance?


I really haven't been watching this too closely.

I like certain things about O'Leary as the dark horse, but I lost a lot of respect for him with his recent observations about the military.

I'm kinda with SINC on Bernier. Tired of Quebec politicians getting elected & immediately forgetting that there lies half a country west of the Ontario border.

With Leitch being criticized by the left as much as she has, there must be something good about her.


----------



## screature

Beej said:


> Interested in who ehmacers prefer / dislike the least.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_of_Canada_leadership_election,_2017
> 
> Bernier stands out for me, offering a distinct difference from the Liberals and some good policy ideas. I also like Chong, mostly for his previous work on candidacy rules (the thing that makes Canadian party leaders so powerful).
> 
> Who is your pick, regardless of your partisan stance?



I like Chong very much but he won't win. 

My second choice would be Lisa Raitt. She is smart, experienced, can duke it out with the boys any day of the week and has good science based policies, as science was her background. She sure as hell beats the **** out of O'leary who knows nothing, zero, rein, nada, about public policy.

As to who will win?... At this point in time I really don't have a gut feeling about anyone, it all depends on the membership . Maybe O'leary will make a repeat in Canada as a billionaire leader. But I sure hope not.


----------



## SINC

Yep, 'bout right.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> She sure as hell beats the **** out of O'leary who knows nothing, zero, rein, nada, about public policy.


Honestly, I care little about a lack of public policy. And that's probably because all of these so-called politicians, who are supposedly schooled in public policy, have done such a bang-up job with it.

That's one of the reasons why I like Trump over Bill's Wife. He ain't no stinking politician.

And, with the economy taking a crap in the face of falling oil prices, what we need is a business-savvy person at the helm, somebody who knows how to read a balance sheet, not some fine Hairdo idiot born with a silver spoon in his mouth who claims that budgets will balance themselves.

Maybe that's O'Leary, maybe not.

Also why I like Trump over Bill's Wife.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep, pretty much.
> 
> Here's why I fear Islam, Prime Minister | Goldstein | Columnists


He says he fears Islam, but Islam is not homogeneous, as is not Christianity or Judaism, but then he says:



> As a Jew, my fear of Islam -- *pertaining specifically to that malignant and widespread strain of it that hates Jews *-- is completely rational.


He paints with a wide brush his fears of Islam but in reality he is only speaking to a certain sect of Islam. There are sects of Islam who hate anyone who is not Muslim. Then there are others who hate other Muslims who do not believe in their fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran . But then there are many Muslims who reject all of these ideas. Like the Aga Khan, who addressed Parliament when Prime Minister Stephen Harper was in power:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






And just to add:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






For those of you who choose to really educate yourselves.

There are many fundamentalist factions of Christianity who should certainly be feared as well, but Goldstein fails to mention them because his objective is to incite fear and distrust in his readers of anyone who is of the Muslim faith.

He should be ashamed.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> *Honestly, I care little about a lack of public policy. And that's probably because all of these so-called politicians, who are supposedly schooled in public policy, have done such a bang-up job with it.
> *
> That's one of the reasons why I like Trump over Bill's Wife. He ain't no stinking politician.
> 
> And, with the economy taking a crap in the face of falling oil prices, what we need is a business-savvy person at the helm, somebody who knows how to read a balance sheet, not some fine Hairdo idiot born with a silver spoon in his mouth who claims that budgets will balance themselves.
> 
> Maybe that's O'Leary, maybe not.
> 
> *Also why I like Trump over Bill's Wife.*


That is because you have no understanding of it and all the stakeholders that have to be addressed and considered. You would rather have a megalomaniac, egotist, racist, sexist and dumb ass as President just because he is not a a "politician"... 

But here is some news for you *he is a politician*, as a CEO and then subsequently his running for the leadership of the GOP and President of the US.

You so called "populists" make me laugh, you seem to think that ignorance is a virtue.

Also just to add, because you apparently do not know how offensive and sexist that comment was. You demeaned her to just being "Bill's wife" all the while she had a very long and experienced past in politics and law.

You seem to not give a chite about anyone who holds a contradictory opinion to your own and are willing to insult them and berate them even when you do not understand the bigger picture or even the smaller more detailed picture.

Sorry to say this, because I once liked hearing your particular point of view, but IMO you have become nothing but a troll when it comes to political matters. All you want to do is fight, insult people and call people all kinds of names simply because they do not agree with you and you do not engage in reasonable discussion.

That is just my take away from your posts. I wish it were otherwise.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Yep, 'bout right.


That's just complete and utter non-sense!!! Western culture celebrates itself constantly! Awards shows where non-Western's are singled out as the best "foreign" artists of all kinds. The West dominates culture, politics, and finance all over the world!

The West constantly and incessantly criticizes the rest of the non-Western world.

That meme is just pure BS.


----------



## FeXL

Apparently I'm not the only one...



screature said:


> That is because you have no understanding of it...


Let's look at the two options available back in November. Trump ain't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but he's head, shoulders & arse above Bill's Wife. The fact that he is not a main stream politician is merely gravy.



screature said:


> You would rather have a megalomaniac, egotist, racist, sexist and dumb ass as President just because he is not a a "politician"...


He's a businessman who is now PDT. Period.



screature said:


> But here is some news for you *he is a politician*, as a CEO and then subsequently his running for the leadership of the GOP and President of the US.


You so called "elitists" make me laugh, you seem to think that arrogance is a virtue.



screature said:


> You so called "populists" make me laugh, you seem to think that ignorance is a virtue.


OTOH, I know exactly how demeaning that is. Which is exactly why I've been using it all along. And it's not enough by half. She's earned far worse, extending all the way back through her "very long and experienced past in politics and law"...



screature said:


> Also just to add, because you apparently do not know how offensive and sexist that comment was. You demeaned her to just being "Bill's wife" all the while she had a very long and experienced past in politics and law.


On the contrary, I'm more than willing to listen to anybody who can actually formulate an argument supported by facts, not misdirection, hyperbole, red herrings, ad hom attacks, logical fallacies, straw man arguments, childish off topic memes, etc., etc., etc. 

Do you know of anyone here from the left who can do that?



screature said:


> You seem to not give a chite about anyone who holds a contradictory opinion to your own and are willing to insult them and berate them even when you do not understand the bigger picture or even the smaller more detailed picture.


Fine. You are eminently entitled to your opinion, like anyone else on these boards.



screature said:


> Sorry to say this, because I once liked hearing your particular point of view, but IMO you have become nothing but a troll when it comes to political matters.


I give what I get. Somebody presents a thoughtful or reasonable post, I reply in kind. Somebody posts something that is factually incorrect, I reply with facts. Somebody slams me, I slam back, faster, bigger, harder. Somebody posts something stupid (as some do here on a daily basis), I reply with all the distain, mockery & derision I can muster. 

Cause & effect.



screature said:


> All you want to do is fight, insult people and call people all kinds of names simply because they do not agree with you and you do not engage in reasonable discussion.


----------



## Macfury

Hill's spotty career as a lawyer and her political career as a parachuted-in senator and failed Secretary of State have never been very impressive to me.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hill's spotty career as a lawyer and her political career as a parachuted-in senator and failed Secretary of State have never been very impressive to me.


Nor should they be, if analyzed objectively.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Apparently I'm not the only one...


No you are not, just like if you were a neo-Nazi you would not be the only one.



FeXL said:


> Let's look at the two options available back in November. Trump ain't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but he's head, shoulders & arse above Bill's Wife. *The fact that he is not a main stream politician* is merely gravy.


While he may not be a "mainstream" politician of course he is a politician and has been for years and years, just in a rude, sexist, racist and narcissistic kind of way.



FeXL said:


> He's a businessman who is now PDT. Period.


BS. You clearly have never worked for a corporation, because if you did you would know that it is ALL about politics at the higher levels. Having worked for a multinational corporation dealing with the VPs and the CEO I know this for a fact. They also have to deal with the politics of the Board of Directors. Remember how Jobs got ousted as CEO by the Board of Directors at Apple??? That is politics. 



FeXL said:


> You so called "elitists" make me laugh, you seem to think that arrogance is a virtue.


No elitism here, Trump is an elitist, that is all too apparent. If it were possible he would be King Trump. Us realists can see that quite clearly without the blinders of so called populism.



FeXL said:


> OTOH, I know exactly how demeaning that is. Which is exactly why I've been using it all along. And it's not enough by half. She's earned far worse, extending all the way back through her "very long and experienced past in politics and law"...


Hillary was far from perfect but she is far more knowledgeable about the world writ large and the politics involved than is Trump.



FeXL said:


> On the contrary, I'm more than willing to listen to anybody who can actually formulate an argument supported by facts, not misdirection, hyperbole, red herrings, ad hom attacks, logical fallacies, straw man arguments, childish off topic memes, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Do you know of anyone here from the left who can do that?


Yes. Dr. G is a perfect example. But they are not necessarily on the "left" as you say. I am not on the left but I am knowledgeable enough to call a spade a spade and defend my posts with reason and citations as much as possible with facts.



FeXL said:


> Fine. You are eminently entitled to your opinion,* like anyone else on these boards*.


Not according to you, see your statement above. You deride people and their intelligence who do not agree with you on a regular basis and take pride in it.



FeXL said:


> *I give what I get.* Somebody presents a thoughtful or reasonable post, I reply in kind. *Somebody posts something that is factually incorrect, I reply with facts. Somebody slams me, I slam back, faster, bigger, harder. Somebody posts something stupid (as some do here on a daily basis), I reply with all the distain, mockery & derision I can muster.
> *
> *Cause & effect.*


You keep saying that and it is pure BS. You often give without getting and everyone *CHOOSES* how to react to people. There is no cause and effect when it comes to discourse. Cause and effect is a matter of physics not verbal/written interactions between human beings.

And does it make you feel all puffed and proud, like a big man when you "reply with all the distain, mockery & derision I can muster". It seems like it does.


----------



## FeXL

Zing...



screature said:


> No you are not, just like if you were a neo-Nazi you would not be the only one.


I. Don't. Care.

His good outweighs his bad. His bad is better than Bill's Wife's bad.



screature said:


> ... just in a rude, sexist, racist and narcissistic kind of way.


A call to authority, a logical fallacy. Argument fail.

However, now that you ask, yes, I have been on a number of committees that dealt with management at senior levels and I was once a member of a BoD. Did I do a lot of politicking in those roles? Absolutely! However, that no more makes me a politician than running my Harley over the speed limit for the last 36 years makes me a motorcycle racer.



screature said:


> BS. You clearly have never worked for a corporation, because if you did you would know that it is ALL about politics at the higher levels. Having worked for a multinational corporation dealing with the VPs and the CEO I know this for a fact. They also have to deal with the politics of the Board of Directors.


As a businessman Trump is a realist. He is designing & applying real solutions to fix real problems, unlike the feel-good, rose-coloured glasses unicorn fart "solutions" his predecessor used. 



screature said:


> No elitism here, Trump is an elitist, that is all too apparent. If it were possible he would be King Trump. Us realists can see that quite clearly without the blinders of so called populism.


Don't care. Bill's Wife will never be POTUS. She is a lying, cheating, thieving, stealing, two-faced, back-stabbing, enabling, poor excuse for a human being & finally, after all these years, got her comeuppance. That makes me smile, _this_ wide. 



screature said:


> Hillary was far from perfect but she is far more knowledgeable about the world writ large and the politics involved than is Trump.


With all respect to Dr.G, he frequently avoids controversial topics at all costs, agreeing to disagree. And, while I enjoy his satire, rarely does that actually address the topic at hand.



screature said:


> Yes. Dr. G is a perfect example.


Good! It's not usually the right that has issues with me. That's why I specifically noted the left.



screature said:


> But they are not necessarily on the "left" as you say. I am not on the left but I am knowledgeable enough to call a spade a spade and defend my posts with reason and citations as much as possible with facts.


Nope. Don't care if they agree with me. That's not the point. 

Can they present their argument in a logical fashion using facts & empirical evidence? That's what matters to me. Everything else is opinion & I don't care.



screature said:


> Not according to you, see your statement above. You deride people and their intelligence who do not agree with you on a regular basis and take pride in it.


Well, that's your opinion. Until you back it up with examples, your opinion it will remain.

And, yes, it's my choice how I respond. Quelle surprise! So does everybody else on these boards. So what? 



screature said:


> You keep saying that and it is pure BS. You often give without getting and everyone *CHOOSES* how to react to people.


There most certainly is. How someone responds to me, whether in person or in a written fashion, governs entirely how I respond to them.

And, I would suggest that most people react in the same fashion. Come up swinging, literally or figuratively, & people will either tuck tail or swing back. I'm not the tuck tail kind of person.



screature said:


> There is no cause and effect when it comes to discourse. Cause and effect is a matter of physics not verbal/written interactions between human beings.


Oh, yeah, baby...:love2:



screature said:


> And does it make you feel all puffed and proud, like a big man when you "reply with all the distain, mockery & derision I can muster". It seems like it does.


----------



## FeXL

Well, well, well... 

Don't know how many of you read Day By Day but if you don't, you should.

Kathleen makes the big time.


----------



## FeXL

There ya go, MF...

Ontario will test universal basic income in three cities in 2017



> _Segal recommended piloting in at least three cities, one urban, one rural and one in close collaboration with a First Nations community, and setting the handout at a minimum of three-quarters of Canada’s official poverty line. At that level, a single adult would receive an annual basic income of $16,989, almost double the $8,472 max payment under the province’s current welfare program._
> 
> So, why is the idea even being suggested? Backers like Segal say it’s because of rising unemployment across the country. *In Ontario alone, thousands of unemployed lost jobs between 2000 and 2007, during a dramatic downsizing of jobs in the automobile industry and manufacturing sectors.*


M'bold.

Once again, gov't is entirely unable to differentiate between cause & effect...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Don't care. Bill's Wife will never be POTUS. She is a lying, cheating, thieving, stealing, two-faced, back-stabbing, enabling, poor excuse for a human being & finally, after all these years, got her comeuppance. That makes me smile, _this_ wide.


Her loss still makes me feel great every morning when I wake up. I found Obama depressing, but I did not realize how much malaise he and Hill brought into the world until I saw the door slam on their collective ass.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Zing...
> 
> 
> 
> I. Don't. Care.
> 
> His good outweighs his bad. His bad is better than Bill's Wife's bad.
> 
> 
> 
> A call to authority, a logical fallacy. Argument fail.
> 
> However, now that you ask, yes, I have been on a number of committees that dealt with management at senior levels and I was once a member of a BoD. Did I do a lot of politicking in those roles? Absolutely! However, that no more makes me a politician than running my Harley over the speed limit for the last 36 years makes me a motorcycle racer.
> 
> 
> 
> As a businessman Trump is a realist. He is designing & applying real solutions to fix real problems, unlike the feel-good, rose-coloured glasses unicorn fart "solutions" his predecessor used.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't care. Bill's Wife will never be POTUS. She is a lying, cheating, thieving, stealing, two-faced, back-stabbing, enabling, poor excuse for a human being & finally, after all these years, got her comeuppance. That makes me smile, _this_ wide.
> 
> 
> 
> With all respect to Dr.G, he frequently avoids controversial topics at all costs, agreeing to disagree. And, while I enjoy his satire, rarely does that actually address the topic at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Good! It's not usually the right that has issues with me. That's why I specifically noted the left.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Don't care if they agree with me. That's not the point.
> 
> Can they present their argument in a logical fashion using facts & empirical evidence? That's what matters to me. Everything else is opinion & I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's your opinion. Until you back it up with examples, your opinion it will remain.
> 
> And, yes, it's my choice how I respond. Quelle surprise! So does everybody else on these boards. So what?
> 
> 
> 
> There most certainly is. How someone responds to me, whether in person or in a written fashion, governs entirely how I respond to them.
> 
> And, I would suggest that most people react in the same fashion. Come up swinging, literally or figuratively, & people will either tuck tail or swing back. I'm not the tuck tail kind of person.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, baby...:love2:


I don't care either. Your incessant repetition of the same thing over and over again is just boring. :yawn:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> I don't care either. Your [BOLD]incessant repetition[/BOLD] of the same thing over and over again is just boring. :yawn:



Indeed. M'bold.


----------



## SINC

Way to go Jughead Trudeau.

Canadians now spend more on taxes than on food, clothing and shelter combined, study finds | Financial Post


----------



## FeXL

Well, first off, I apologize for not being more complex. I know that that I'm a far simpler man than any of the Progs on these boards. Perhaps you should converse with them, instead? They'll shovel you all kinds of crap in their efforts to convince you that their opinion is, in fact, fact!

Me, I stick to the basics. What is the truth is supported by empirical evidence. Everything else is opinion &, just like belly buttons, nearly everyone has one. They're all worth 'bout the same.

And, sometimes the truth is boring. Can't help that... 



screature said:


> I don't care either. Your incessant repetition of the same thing over and over again is just boring. :yawn:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Well, first off, I apologize for not being more complex blah blah blah



I'm impressed. This is the closest you've come to an actual apology for anything, even if it's a backhanded one. There may be hope yet.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Way to go Jughead Trudeau.
> 
> Canadians now spend more on taxes than on food, clothing and shelter combined, study finds | Financial Post


The math seems questionable to me. $30,000/year spending including housing which is usually mortgage payments and not subject to sales tax, ditto food. Excluding mortgage and food $10-15,000 sales taxable spending seems to be about the max. Yet the $5000 in sales tax would imply purchases of $40,000 if HST is 12%, in Alberta that would imply purchases of $100,000.

Like the NDP the Fraser crowd seems to be mathematically challenged.


----------



## Macfury

Considering property tax and hidden taxes in the price of goods, it seems reasonable to me.



eMacMan said:


> The math seems questionable to me. $30,000/year spending including housing which is usually mortgage payments and not subject to sales tax, ditto food. Excluding mortgage and food $10-15,000 sales taxable spending seems to be about the max. Yet the $5000 in sales tax would imply purchases of $40,000 if HST is 12%, in Alberta that would imply purchases of $100,000.
> 
> Like the NDP the Fraser crowd seems to be mathematically challenged.


----------



## FeXL

Well, that makes one of us, Freddie...



Freddie_Biff said:


> There may be hope yet.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> Like the NDP the Fraser crowd seems to be mathematically challenged.


I haven't looked at the details, so no comment there. The overall average will not mean much considering that most taxes are for redistribution, including to the historically underfunded pension plan. A consequence of history added to ongoing redistribution.

This is not a pure libertarian nation (not a possible thing to have, anyway...or desirable), but I would like some moderation in that direction, plus a focus on more efficient spending. Then debate new programs. Far too much bloat has built up since the austere 1990s. If we want to avoid experiencing that again, this is a good time to sharpen those pencils.

Here is some data for those interested:
https://www.fin.gc.ca/frt-trf/2016/frt-trf-16-eng.asp


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> I haven't looked at the details, so no comment there. The overall average will not mean much considering that most taxes are for redistribution, including to the historically underfunded pension plan. A consequence of history added to ongoing redistribution.


The "underfunded pension plan" is the bane of my existence. I wish I could opt out.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> The "underfunded pension plan" is the bane of my existence. I wish I could opt out.


I want to opt out of cities giving tax breaks to religious structures. We all have our crosses to bear. 

That said, I get the slippery slope argument. If taxed, they could easily be taxed in a punitive or discriminatory manner. Crosses valued differently than stars, valued differently than crescents for tax purposes.

The only acceptable discrimination is that everyone younger than boomers gets hosed. beejacon


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> I want to opt out of cities giving tax breaks to religious structures.


Me too!


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Me too!


Then you must be some kind of "ist", in current online debate parlance. Not atheist, but something. I'm watching you, isty.

More seriously, any concerns with the slippery slope I described? A question to all.


----------



## Macfury

Get off the edge of the slope now--then we don;t have to worry about its slipperiness.


----------



## SINC

Our future indeed. 

Kevin Libin: The revenge of Canada’s climate deplorables could lead to our very own Trump


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Well, first off, I apologize for not being more complex. I know that that I'm a far simpler man than any of the Progs on these boards. Perhaps you should converse with them, instead? They'll shovel you all kinds of crap in their efforts to convince you that their opinion is, in fact, fact!
> 
> Me, I stick to the basics. What is the truth is supported by empirical evidence. Everything else is opinion &, just like belly buttons, nearly everyone has one. They're all worth 'bout the same.
> 
> And, sometimes the truth is boring. Can't help that...


In my experience the truth is never boring, it is almost always complex, detailed and completely fascinating. It all depends on how deep you want to dig.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Get off the edge of the slope now--then we don;t have to worry about its slipperiness.


That's a potential chasm, but I like your moxie.


----------



## Beej

screature said:


> In my experience the truth is never boring, it is always complex, detailed and completely fascinating.


I've found it to be both. Sometimes simple and regrettably obvious, often complex. The trick is in figuring out when it is simple, and when it is not. Still practicing that trick.

Always fascinating, though. We agree on that point.


----------



## screature

Beej said:


> I've found it to be both. Sometimes simple and regrettably obvious, often complex. The trick is in figuring out when it is simple, and when it is not. Still practicing that trick.
> 
> Always fascinating, though. We agree on that point.


Agreed it can be both and I am still trying to practice that trick as well... but it ain't easy. It takes lots of thought and experience.


----------



## Beej

screature said:


> Agreed it can be both and I am still trying to practice that trick as well... but it ain't easy. It takes lots of thought and experience.


That's one problem. The simple stuff doesn't require a lot of thought, experience and (to impose) reflection. The noise of thinking of the million bits of data gets in the way. At the same time, just going with your gut all the time exposes a different problem. Idiocy.

Any specific anecdotes to share on this mess? I find that general statements of "how things work" do not actually work on this topic.


----------



## FeXL

Liberals’ botched energy plan cost us all 



> Ontario Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault’s admission Friday that the Liberals paid too much for wind and solar power won’t come as any comfort to the hundreds of thousands of Ontarians now living in energy poverty as a result.
> 
> What’s more, Thibeault’s excuse that the Liberals were well-intentioned and only realized their mistake with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight is absurd.


----------



## screature

Beej said:


> That's one problem. The simple stuff doesn't require a lot of thought, experience and (to impose) reflection. The noise of thinking of the million bits of data gets in the way. At the same time, just going with your gut all the time exposes a different problem. Idiocy.
> 
> Any specific anecdotes to share on this mess? I find that general statements of "how things work" do not actually work on this topic.


I should have added knowledge to thought and experience, except that knowledge often presents itself in conflicting ways... but that is an added dimension. What do we actually know and what do we think we know and a lot of the time the two are basically equivalent. Like for instance do we really have proof that black holes exist? Some say yes some say no.

So no anecdotes but just more questions:

What is going on with Putin and his relationship with Trump?
Is coffee good or bad for me?
Is the current state of climate change caused by human activity or not?
Etc... etc...


----------



## FeXL

In order:

Nothing.
Who cares, don't drink it anyway.
No.



screature said:


> What is going on with Putin and his relationship with Trump?
> Is coffee good or bad for me?
> Is the current state of climate change caused by human activity?


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> In order:
> 
> *Nothing.*
> *Who cares, don't drink it anyway.
> No.*


You do not know that.
Millions do so lots of people care, you are not the only person in the world.
You do not know that.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> You do not know that.
> Millions do so lots of people care, you are not the only person in the world.
> You do not know that.


Neither do you.
Neither are you.
Yes, I do.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting that the ones who can afford a $75K-$150K electric car are the ones getting the break...

Rex Murphy: In Ontario, the taxpayers sustain Wynne’s green energy perpetual motion disaster



> Just two days ago, in this same Ontario where “energy poverty” is the phrase d’jour, it was announced that for those green citizens who wish to buy a Tesla all-electric car, or any other high-end save-the-planet roadster, vehicles in the $75,000 to $150,000 bracket, the province is restoring the full $14,000 ecoVirtue subsidy. And as an extra frill, all Tesla tycoons get to ride free in the HOV lanes and wave at the second-hand pickups stalled in the lanes for ordinary folks.


----------



## FeXL

Hmmm.

There better be a helluva lotta clarification going on here, Kevin...

Kevin O'Leary supports transgender rights amid U.S. bathroom debate



> Conservative leadership candidate Kevin O'Leary says the party has to respect the rights of LGBTQ people in order to win over millennial voters -- and that the party's social conservatives will get on board if it means winning a majority government.
> In an interview to air Sunday on CTV's Question Period, O'Leary said his 24-year-old daughter threatened to campaign against him in the next election if he didn't respect reproductive rights and LGBTQ rights.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

WASTE: Trudeau Government Deficit Reaches $14 Billion So Far



> Through nine months of the fiscal year, Justin Trudeau’s government has run a budget deficit of $14 billion. For comparison, there was a $3.2 billion surplus at the same time last fiscal year.
> 
> Not only is our debt rising rapidly, but Canadians aren’t seeing any benefit for all this new spending. _Where is the surge in jobs or wealth? Where is the economic growth? Where is the opportunity?_


Links' italics.

Good questions!

More:



> *However, the vast majority of the increased deficit is on program spending. A whole $8.9 billion of the added deficit comes from that direct program spending, which is up a whopping 11.3%.*
> 
> Yet, that money isn’t going towards infrastructure projects that would create long-term economic growth. It’s being funneled back into the hands of bureaucrats, as Ottawa has gone on a government hiring spree, and increased the size of the state by tens of thousands of workers.


Links' bold.

Just what we need. Even more of the bastards...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canadian Survey: Massive Drop in Trust in Government – Significant Number Blame Media Bias…



> Another research report surfaces today highlighting a growing international trend. More People are beginning to identify the structures of liberal government as untrustworthy; it is quite an interesting dynamic.
> 
> The latest Trust Survey comes from Canada and shows a massive drop in trust by Canadians toward the construct of their governance.


Hair-do! Hair-do! Hair-do...


----------



## Beej

screature said:


> What is going on with Putin and his relationship with Trump?


That's a good example. There is a lot of noise -- potentially knowledge -- but, to date, noise. Remember Romney being laughed at for calling him the top problem?

On the surface, using confirmed information, Trump's approach is less confrontational, for better or worse. The previous administration tried a reset. That changed.

In the noise, there is a lot of worrying things, sort of confirmed, sort of not, and sometimes made up. Hard to read that. Try applying a similar standard of skepticism to politicians you like and dislike. If doing that fails you a couple times, reconsider. 

What I have seen, over and over, is that people get much more open to anything and everything bad if they dislike the politician/policy. Members of this board talked about Harper's belly and shaking his kid's hand (on the first day of school) at one point, as if that was something. Then media outlets, large or small, feed on this attitude.

So pick a politician you liked, try to recall the "big" scandals and how you reacted in terms of searching for primary information and counter arguments. Maybe you waved it off, or checked one other source. Maybe more. Do the same thing here.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Neither do you.
> Neither are you.
> Yes, I do.


What exactly is your point in doing this other than to be a troll?


----------



## screature

Beej said:


> That's a good example. There is a lot of noise -- potentially knowledge -- but, to date, noise. Remember Romney being laughed at for calling him the top problem?
> 
> On the surface, using confirmed information, Trump's approach is less confrontational, for better or worse. The previous administration tried a reset. That changed.
> 
> In the noise, there is a lot of worrying things, sort of confirmed, sort of not, and sometimes made up. Hard to read that. Try applying a similar standard of skepticism to politicians you like and dislike. If doing that fails you a couple times, reconsider.
> 
> What I have seen, over and over, is that people get much more open to anything and everything bad if they dislike the politician/policy. Members of this board talked about Harper's belly and shaking his kid's hand (on the first day of school) at one point, as if that was something. Then media outlets, large or small, feed on this attitude.
> 
> So pick a politician you liked, try to recall the "big" scandals and how you reacted in terms of searching for primary information and counter arguments. Maybe you waved it off, or checked one other source. Maybe more. Do the same thing here.


I do not disagree with you.


----------



## Beej

screature said:


> I do not disagree with you.


I disagree with this statement on principle. 

Good night and good luck.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Now let's see that swinging laser eye burn a hole through the entire "progressive" wing of the Liberal bench.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> What exactly is your point in doing this other than to be a troll?




Trolls do what trolls do. Mostly just to annoy.


----------



## FeXL

I'm responding to your post. Same as you responded to mine.

If I'm a troll then so are you. If you aren't, then neither am I.

So, which is it?



screature said:


> What exactly is your point in doing this other than to be a troll?


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> I'm responding to your post. Same as you responded to mine.
> 
> If I'm a troll then so are you. If you aren't, then neither am I.
> 
> So, which is it?


The original questions asked were purely rhetorical and demonstrative of a point that I was making in a discussion with Beej, clearly were not meant to be answered. You were just being a smart ass by answering them at all, especially in the manner that you did.


----------



## FeXL

Ya know, screature, I don't know what the wild hair up your backside is but you really need to chill.

Yes, I know the questions were rhetorical. Equally obvious, by the flippant way I answered them, is the fun I was having. Yes, a smart-ass. Sue me.

Now yer stomping around, all butt-hurt, 'cause I not only fractured some law by answering yer friggin' rhetorical questions but in a in a manner that is apparently unsuitable.

Excuuuuuuuuuse me...



screature said:


> The original questions asked were purely rhetorical and demonstrative of a point that I was making in a discussion with Beej, clearly were not meant to be answered. You were just being a smart ass by answering them at all, especially in the manner that you did.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Ya know, screature, I don't know what the wild hair up your backside is but you really need to chill.
> 
> Yes, I know the questions were rhetorical. Equally obvious, by the flippant way I answered them, is the fun I was having. Yes, a smart-ass. Sue me.
> 
> Now yer stomping around, all butt-hurt, 'cause I not only fractured some law by answering yer friggin' rhetorical questions but in a in a manner that is apparently unsuitable.
> 
> Excuuuuuuuuuse me...


Ok sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from. I will admit it, I am uptight these days as both my wife and I are unemployed and my EI just ran out, so I take every little thing seriously as I am not sure what we are going to do. We have both have been frantically applying to jobs for months that we are qualified for without any responses.

You see the problem for us is that we live in the National Capital Region where thanks to PET almost every job requires that you are bilingual, even if it really does not, it is just the f**cking elitist policy that he put into place to pacify the Quebec separatists of the time and has never really been questioned since. 

Neither of us are fluently bilingual although we can both read and speak some, so the end result is that I look at job description for work that I know I am more than qualified to do and then at the bottom they say bilingual imperative... FFF***CCKK!!!!

So yah, I am uptight and on edge, not enough sleep due to worry and it does not help my trying to remain sober. Life is a real challenge for us right now, more so than it has ever been in my past and I went through some very, very difficult times. Aren't these supposed to be the "golden years"? 

Just to add what is, "don't know what the wild hair up your backside" supposed to mean? I never heard the expression before.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Just to add what is, "don't know what the wild hair up your backside" is supposed to mean? I never heard the expression before.


The "wild hair" is supposed to have grown to enter the chasm (apologies to chasmac) and cause itch and irritation...


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> The "wild hair" is supposed to have grown to enter the chasm (apologies to chasmac) and cause itch and irritation...


Interesting. I didn't even know that hairs could grow into the sphincter of one's ass.

Learn something new every day.


----------



## FeXL

S'awrite. Just don't be set on such a (wait for it...) HAIR TRIGGER! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lmao:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

So, take this for what it's worth but, as far as your employment difficulties are concerned, if every job has a bilingual requirement, what about the possibility of moving elsewhere?

What about opening up your own consulting business in Ottawa, based on your existing knowledge & expertise?



screature said:


> Ok sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from.


----------



## FeXL

Frankly, I'm a little surprised...

Ryerson parts ways with imam whose teachings are under investigation



> An imam at a Toronto mosque who prayed for the purification of Jews and slaying of “infidels and polytheists” is no longer employed by Ryerson University.
> 
> B’nai Brith Canada made the announcement late Tuesday, citing Ryerson president Mohamed Lachemi. “Ayman Elkasrawy, a teaching assistant at Ryerson University, who in a sermon preached ‘purify the al-Aqsa Mosque from the filth of the Jews,’ has been dismissed by the university,” B’nai Brith said in a news release.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> S'awrite. Just don't be set on such a (wait for it...) HAIR TRIGGER! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lmao:
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> So, take this for what it's worth but, *as far as your employment difficulties are concerned, if every job has a bilingual requirement, what about the possibility of moving elsewhere?*
> 
> What about opening up your own consulting business in Ottawa, based on your existing knowledge & expertise?


Yes we have actually thought about it seriously, but we have a lot of renos invested in our home and love it. Aside from the language thing as it relates to employment we love the area. It is one of the difficult decisions that we have to face.


----------



## Beej

*Ontario Renewable Electricity*

This story has been developing for seven or so years. A very expensive policy that Ontario will be paying for over decades.
National Post View: Kathleen Wynne’s Liberals bail themselves out with public money, again | National Post



> Long-term contracts for power generation from nuclear and “green” energy providers will now be paid out over 30 years, not 20.


How innovative.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Voila! An American Dream
Just a few degrees of latitude to the North—the new land of the free. 












> The American Dream has moved to Canada
> 
> By every measure, Canada is the true place to find ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.’ Let’s stop squandering our good fortune.
> 
> Scott Gilmore February 28, 2017
> A Calgary Stampede rodeo girl carries the Canadian flag. (Todd Korol/Reuters)
> A Calgary Stampede rodeo girl carries the Canadian flag. (Todd Korol/Reuters)
> From the very moment of its creation, Americans have always imagined their country to be a beacon of opportunity for the world. Thomas Jefferson lit that torch when he wrote in the Declaration of Independence that all men have the right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. This notion that everyone deserves a chance, and will most likely find it in America, has been arguably one of the most attractive and powerful ideas in modern history, guiding millions to Ellis Island, in search of a good job, a good education, a white picket fence and a two car garage.
> 
> But where once America stood alone as the land of opportunity, there are now dozens of other countries that have surpassed the United States; chief among these is its unassuming northern neighbour, Canada. Where do you go now for “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”? Canadians live 2.5 years longer than Americans. They are six times less likely to be incarcerated. And the World Economic Forum ranks Canadians as the 6th happiest people in the world, while Americans lag behind at 13th.
> 
> MORE: On CNN with Fareed Zakaria, Scott Gilmore discusses how the American dream has moved to Canada
> 
> Every aspect of the American dream is now more easily found in Canada. In the United States, 46 per cent of the population has been able to obtain a college degree—in Canada it’s 59 per cent. After graduation, Canadians are more likely to find work, with an employment rate four points better. You are more likely to afford a house with a white picket fence in Canada, where home ownership rates are five per cent higher. Canadians also have more time to enjoy their homes, as they work over 80 hours fewer per year—and they take an extra three days vacation.
> 
> Compared to Canada, America isn’t even the “land of the free”, anymore. The Cato Institute’s Human Freedom Index considers Canadians to be the sixth freest people in the world, while Americans limp in at 23rd, behind Poland. The conservative Heritage Foundation, based in Washington, ranks Canada and the U.S. seventh and 17th respectively for economic freedom. Free speech? Reporters Without Borders scores Canada 18th for press freedom; in spite of its much vaunted First Amendment, America only manages 41st.
> 
> The American Dream promised equality, a level playing field where everyone could pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but that too is more a Canadian thing. Canada’s “Gini coefficient”, a measurement of economic inequality, is significantly better than America’s and has been for 80 years now. In Canada, you are twice as likely to move from the poorest quintile of the population to the wealthiest. Similarly, the link between the income of a parent and a child is half as strong in Canada.
> 
> GILMORE_THE AMERICAN DREAM[4]
> 
> By virtually every measure, Canada has surpassed the United States as the shining city on the hill, where everyone is safe to reach their potential. And people around the world have begun to notice. From the United States, refugees and asylum seekers are now fleeing into Canada hoping for a fair immigration hearing and a better future. In Latin America, there are reports of economic migrants heading north, intending to cross the U.S. border and keep moving, into Canada. And, overseas, ESL students are increasingly choosing Canada over the U.S.
> 
> Whether it was due to geography or history or maybe even policy, we have arrived. Everything America once aspired to be, we now are. Not only have we achieved the fabled American Dream, we are arguably among the safest, healthiest, happiest human beings to have ever existed.
> 
> And what are we doing with this incredible good fortune? If we are painfully honest with ourselves, not much. We measure out our lives in coffee spoons and Caribbean holidays, a nation of overweight middle-class suburbanites, upset that a carbon tax adds an extra 5¢ at Tim Hortons, or one less day at the beach in Jamaica. No generation of Canadians has ever had more and been able achieve more than us—and no generation has been less ambitious. We have all the tools and all the opportunity to do great things, but no purpose, no national project, no imagination and no sense of determination.
> 
> MORE: The new underground railroad to Canada
> 
> And this complacency is abetted by our shameless political leaders, breathlessly emoting about “helping the struggling middle class”—a less ambitious slogan than “Make America Great Again”, but just as fatuous and just as cynical.
> 
> I have two suggestions, two national projects towards which we could strive. First, it is horrifying that while most of us luxuriate in the shiny Canadian Dream, many Indigenous Canadians live in communities without running water, basic healthcare, or any hope of a prosperous future. Surely, if we finally stopped kowtowing to the false gods of the Reserve System and the Indian Act, we could end this injustice within a generation.
> 
> And second, as the American Dream has now become Canadian, perhaps it is time we also took on the role as the land of the free, and opened our doors wider still. Numerous studies have shown Canada could easily absorb far more immigrants than we do now. In fact, if we want to protect our economy from the effects of an aging population and declining birth rate, we need to attract more.
> 
> It is often noted that in the early 20th century, Canadian prime minister Sir Wilfred Laurier declared, “Canada shall be the star towards which all men who love progress and freedom shall come.” Let’s make that line as famous and meaningful as this once was: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”


http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-american-dream-moved-to-canada/


----------



## Macfury

Let's not allow stupid taxes and an anti-business attitude to destroy that dream!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

God bless the Beaver. 










https://www.thebeaverton.com/2016/12/kevin-oleary-asks-putin-deal-trump-got/


----------



## MazterCBlazter

Freddie_Biff said:


> God bless the Beaver.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thebeaverton.com/2016/12/kevin-oleary-asks-putin-deal-trump-got/


Who is the most selfish, dumber and greedier? Trump or O' Leary










Kevin O’Leary did not do very well on Celebrity Jeopardy! | National Post


----------



## Freddie_Biff

MazterCBlazter said:


> Who is the most selfish, dumber and greedier? Trump or O' Leary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin O’Leary did not do very well on Celebrity Jeopardy! | National Post



O'Leary may be slightly more ethical. In Trump's eyes, that makes him weak.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

What I have seen of the Conservative leadership race sure seems to be a big joke. The only thing their tiny brains can spew out is lowering taxes, nothing beyond that. Taxes done right is an important investment in the maintenance and improvement of your country.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

Banjos...


----------



## SINC

Yep, pretty much bang on. 

Trudeau blasted by Brazilian magazine and Amnesty International - Politics - CBC News


----------



## chasMac

Here's a thought: all the Alberta self-loathers can leave.



MazterCBlazter said:


> Banjos...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

chasMac said:


> Here's a thought: all the Alberta self-loathers can leave.



Well that's pretty intolerant.


----------



## FUXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> Well that's pretty intolerant.


Certainly a stereotype that doesn't reflect the new Alberta.


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> Certainly a stereotype that doesn't reflect the new Alberta.


And so the charade continues . . .


----------



## SINC

Jason Kenney no slam dunk for new untie the right leader. Matter of fact, no one is between the two front runners.

Brian Jean leads Jason Kenney when it comes to uniting Alberta’s right | Calgary Herald


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Jason Kenney no slam dunk for new untie the right leader. Matter of fact, no one is between the two front runners.



Both of them have about as much zing as a plate of wet noodles...


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> Jason Kenney no slam dunk for new untie the right leader.


I think we can all agree that if the right leader of any party is tied up, then that leader should be untied.


----------



## SINC

Beej said:


> I think we can all agree that if the right leader of any party is tied up, then that leader should be untied.


The proof reader, has always been my nemeses.


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> The proof reader, has always been my nemeses.


Russian and/or CIA hackers. Always blame them.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Jason Kenney no slam dunk for new untie the right leader. Matter of fact, no one is between the two front runners.
> 
> Brian Jean leads Jason Kenney when it comes to uniting Alberta’s right | Calgary Herald


I always liked the U.S. approach in this. I would like to see the candidates for any leadership (Federal or Provincial party) fall under a primary approach. The leaderships travel through the various ridings and have a public debate, then the public votes on who should win that primary.....and they don't have to be party members since the public votes for the government we should have our say on who should lead the parties, not some old boy network. This approach would have been interesting to see with, say, the Liberals federally and provincially(here in Ontario).


----------



## FeXL

Here's a couple of items showing us what we get for a billion plus bucks a year...

Caution: Link to Mother Corpse within.

"I clicked through your link and my god, court artists aren't what they used to be."

From the comments:



> still can't fathom this. Was it a joke that didn't get caught before press time? Who on earth approved this for release to publication? I can't even believe that an editor demanded one of the cub crime reporters scratch something up from memory because they didn't get a sketch in time - that's pastels on kraft paper, standard court sketch artist tools.
> 
> For a billion dollars a year, they could at least get a moderately talented high school
> student to do their court sketches. Make it a co-op placement or something.


and 



> He didn't even get the colours right. He used the number 7 orange where he was supposed to use the number 3 red.


Subway sues TV network over ‘soy chicken’ report



> Subway is crying fowl over claims that its chicken is loaded with soy fillers — this time in court.
> 
> The fast-food chain has slapped the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. with a lawsuit over an TV expose last month that claimed its chicken was only about 50-percent poultry and the rest of it soybeans, The Post has learned.
> 
> Subway’s is claiming $210 million in damages in the legal flap, blasting the soy-filler allegations from news show CBC Marketplace as “defamatory and absolutely false,” a Subway spokesman told The Post.


More:



> Grewal added that Subway’s poultry supplier in Ottawa, Grand River Foods, also supplies Wendy’s and Tim Horton’s, raising doubts about the differing levels of chicken DNA found in CBC’s report.


Maths (an' pitchers) is hard for Progs...


----------



## FeXL

Well, here's $0.10 worth...

"We Are All Doing It": Thousands Of Canadian Bankers Admit Lying To Customers To Boost Sales



> Several days after shares of Canada's TD Bank tumbled following reports that its employees were engaging in practices similar to those which led to a major scandal at Wells Fargo, which cost CEO John Stumpf his job and led to bonus clawbacks and numerous terminations over the practice of "cross-selling", employees from all five of Canada's big banks have flooded CBC's "Go Public" whistleblower hotline with stories of how they too feel pressured to upsell, trick and even lie to customers to meet unrealistic sales targets and keep their jobs.


Good. At least they're doing something.

Rhetorical question: how many reports d'ya think they're putting together from disgruntled gov't workers...


----------



## FeXL

Can you imagine the hue & cry if rates were reduced for whites only?

Ontario cutting hydro rates for First Nations



> The Liberal government’s new hydro rate cut will remove delivery charges for every on-reserve First Nations household in Ontario.
> 
> Colin Nekolaichuk, spokesman for Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault, confirmed the credit will help alleviate the large delivery charges to many Ontario First Nation’s reserves and remote communities. The credit will cover 100% of the delivery charges.
> 
> The ministry says 21,500 on-reserve customers will automatically qualify for the credit.


Guess everyone else's rates (or taxes) will go up to offset the shortfall...


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Dr.G.

Forget 'values tests.' One would-be Tory leader has other ideas that will horrify Liberals: Neil Macdonald - CBC News | Opinion

An interesting article.

I would have to agree that Rick Peterson seems like one Conservative candidate that might be able to make a run at the Liberals in the next election. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Forget 'values tests.' One would-be Tory leader has other ideas that will horrify Liberals: Neil Macdonald - CBC News | Opinion
> 
> An interesting article.
> 
> I would have to agree that Rick Peterson seems like one Conservative candidate that might be able to make a run at the Liberals in the next election. We shall see.





> He wants to eliminate Canada's corporate income tax.


Welcome to the club, Dr. G!


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Forget 'values tests.' One would-be Tory leader has other ideas that will horrify Liberals: Neil Macdonald - CBC News | Opinion
> 
> An interesting article.


Very insightful comments from Neil MacDonald.


----------



## Rps

Well I've been watching the cavalcade of PM wannabes called the Conservative Leadership Race. Yep, 14 or so, would make the old Communist Party, or even the Republicans proud. Here's m take on what I'd like to see in the future.

All candidates would debate on 20 primary like locations. So an example list would be?.

Yellowknife, Dawson City, Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Winnipeg, ThunderBay, Sudbury, Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor, Montreal, Quebec City, Freddie Town in N.B., Halifax, the Char in P.E.I, St. John's, Iqaluit.

These 20 location are open to party members and the general public. Voting controls would be the same as for a provincial election.

There would be a "timed" speech by each on their policy views then a timed debate. The people at the primary would vote. You get five points for being 1st, 3 for being 2nd, 1 for 3rd to 5th. Total available points are 100, you need 61 to win the party nomination.

Okay....have at it....


----------



## SINC

How about a limit of three final candidates by voting at each meeting and totalled to eliminate 11 of them before the final vote? Who the hell can pick out of 14?


----------



## Rps

I agree, but how to do it fairly? My thoughts would be an elimination by secured vote. If you don't get 10 votes by the 10th primary you are done. That's why you need 61 votes to win. Also, if you don't show, no votes....O'Leary and Quebec here, he would loose 10 votes...


----------



## Rps

I agree but how do you do it fairly, my thoughts are and elimination based on secured votes. If you don't have 10 votes by the 10th primary you are out. That's also why you need 61 votes. No show no votes....O'Leary would have lost 10 votes in Quebec.


----------



## SINC

What I am saying is that the party (any party for that matter) that allows so many candidates for one position does itself no favour in a vote resulting in the best leader. In fact it works against the party in that regard.

There ought to be some mechanism, even by region for example, to cull the numbers to a level that a national vote can be beneficial and meaningful.


----------



## Rps

I agree but how do you do that fairly...I think the culling needs to be on an earned basis rather than arbitrary culling. But 14 was too many to be sure.


----------



## Macfury

I don't see the need for culling. 14 or 50, I can set my sights on my first, second and third choice easily.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> I agree, but how to do it fairly? My thoughts would be an elimination by secured vote. If you don't get 10 votes by the 10th primary you are done. That's why you need 61 votes to win. Also, if you don't show, no votes....O'Leary and Quebec here, he would loose 10 votes...



I like that. If you want to be Prime Minister someday, you better be prepared to represent ALL of Canada.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> I like that. If you want to be Prime Minister someday, you better be prepared to represent ALL of Canada.


How would that work? At best you could prove you represented _some_ people in each province.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> culling needs to be on an earned basis rather than arbitrary culling. But 14 was too many to be sure.


The typical debate is between one member one vote, and riding-weighted votes (to match how elections work), or cutoff dates for membership during leadership races. Outside of those topics, giving more power to the political party seems like a bad idea.


----------



## Rps

Beej said:


> The typical debate is between one member one vote, and riding-weighted votes (to match how elections work), or cutoff dates for membership during leadership races. Outside of those topics, giving more power to the political party seems like a bad idea.


Actually, under my suggested approach the parties would have much less power. Currently they have all the control as to who is the leader. My approach would be more democratic as we do not elect a leader but elect a parliament. This would be a compromise to the Westminster and the Republic approach which would not require the dreaded constitutional amendment.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> How would that work? At best you could prove you represented _some_ people in each province.


The approach is based on the new leader having secured votes from all regions to win.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> Actually, under my suggested approach the parties would have much less power. Currently they have all the control as to who is the leader. My approach would be more democratic as we do not elect a leader but elect a parliament. This would be a compromise to the Westminster and the Republic approach which would not require the dreaded constitutional amendment.


The approach creates a detailed set of rules (debate locations, speech times, etc.) that will be controlled by somebody. The winner will tweak those rules to favour a successor. An independent body is at risk of the same thing. 

Let the party flail and learn. If a party repeatedly screws up, it will end. I like how Canada's system is more adaptable than the more strict two party structure of the U.S.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> The approach is based on the new leader having secured votes from all regions to win.


_Any _leader will have the support of _some_ people in each province. But I don't really understand this desire to regulate a private process in what is essentially a corporate entity--a political party. Let each party do what it thinks will help it to win. If that means overlooking Quebec or Alberta, then it will wither win on its strategy or pay the price in a loss. What's the problem with that?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> _Any _leader will have the support of _some_ people in each province. But I don't really understand this desire to regulate a private process in what is essentially a corporate entity--a political party. Let each party do what it thinks will help it to win. If that means overlooking Quebec or Alberta, then it will wither win on its strategy or pay the price in a loss. What's the problem with that?


Justin Trudeau, the movement to have proportional representation, and probably some others if I think about it.


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> What I have seen of the Conservative leadership race sure seems to be a big joke. The only thing their tiny brains can spew out is lowering taxes, nothing beyond that. Taxes done right is an important investment in the maintenance and improvement of your country.


That's not true Michael Chong, is very much about changing the structure of the CPC and Parliament in general to make them both more democratic and less top down.

Read BILL C-586 This will tell you a lot about his guiding principles. And this:

Reform Act, 2014 Backgrounder

He isn't going to win but if I were a card carrying member of the CPC I would be voting for him or Lisa Raitt.

Lisa Raitt is extremely intelligent. She has a Master of Science degree in chemistry, specializing in environmental biochemical toxicology from the University of Guelph. She also earned her law degree from Osgoode Hall at York University, specializing in intellectual property, commercial litigation and shipping arbitration.

She is also very well spoken and knows her stuff inside out. She would make a great foil against the feminist platitudes of JT, who actually despite his platitudes is not a woman and cannot speak for women in the way that she could.

I think it is about time that the Conservatives should have another female leader, something that the Libs have never had... so who exactly is "progressive"? Hmmm?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Justin Trudeau, the movement to have proportional representation, and probably some others if I think about it.


"Proportional representation" for a party that will, at best, garner 40 per cent of the Canadian vote if elected?

I don't like Justin Trudeau but you seem to be suggesting that the Liberals should have followed a prescription to choose someone who you believe "represents all of Canada" but might have lost the election.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> "Proportional representation" for a party that will, at best, garner 40 per cent of the Canadian vote if elected?
> 
> I don't like Justin Trudeau but you seem to be suggesting that the Liberals should have followed a prescription to choose someone who you believe "represents all of Canada" but might have lost the election.


No, I believe we should not vest power to choose a party leader solely with a party.


----------



## Rps

Screature, under my approach you would be able to vote for one of them.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> I don't see the need for culling. 14 or 50, I can set my sights on my first, second and third choice easily.


Agreed. A "culling" is anti-democratic.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> No, I believe we should not vest power to choose a party leader solely with a party.


So you would find a way to let the current government in power saddle each party with federal oversight to make that happen?


----------



## Macfury

I've met her. She was certainly well-spoken.



screature said:


> Lisa Raitt is extremely intelligent. She has a Master of Science degree in chemistry, specializing in environmental biochemical toxicology from the University of Guelph. She also earned her law degree from Osgoode Hall at York University, specializing in intellectual property, commercial litigation and shipping arbitration.
> 
> She is also very well spoken and knows her stuff inside out. She would make a great foil against the feminist platitudes of JT, who actually despite his platitudes is not a woman and cannot speak for women in the way that she could.
> 
> I think it is about time that the Conservatives should have another female leader, something that the Libs have never had... so who exactly is "progressive"? Hmmm?


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Justin Trudeau, the movement to have proportional representation, and probably some others if I think about it.


Yeah and then this:

Minister 'disappointed' as electoral reform committee recommends referendum on proportional representation

Proportional representation is not some panacea to cure Canada's electoral system's whoas. It is just but one option that was rejected by the Committee, without a referendum. Why? Because the Libs are still all about top down politics, despite all the smoke and mirrors.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature, under my approach you would be able to vote for one of them.


How so? You would still have to be a registered supporter of one party or another to be eligible to vote and I think that is right and correct. Otherwise you could have non-supporters actively "rigging" the nomination of a leader that they think is weak and would be easily defeated by the leader/party that they actually support/want to win.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> How so? You would still have to be a registered supporter of one party or another to be eligible to vote and I think that is right and correct. Otherwise you could have non-supporters actively "rigging" the nomination of a leader that they think is weak and would be easily defeated by the leader/party that they actually support/want to win.


This happens all the time in the US.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> This happens all the time in the US.


OK so are you saying that registered Republican supporters can also register as Democrats to deliberately try to rig their opponents nomination? If so, that is just f**cked up.

What I was referring to was Trudeau's position that you do not need to be a member of the Libs to vote for the nominee of the Liberal Party. Which is also f**cked up.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> How so? You would still have to be a registered supporter of one party or another to be eligible to vote and I think that is right and correct. Otherwise you could have non-supporters actively "rigging" the nomination of a leader that they think is weak and would be easily defeated by the leader/party that they actually support/want to win.


No you wouldn't, the average guy would be able to vote.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> OK so are you saying that registered Republican supporters can also register as Democrats to deliberately try to rig their opponents nomination? If so, that is just f**cked up.
> 
> What I was referring to was Trudeau's position that you do not need to be a member of the Libs to vote for the nominee of the Liberal Party. Which is also f**cked up.


Both! 

Tuideau's idea is inane and...

some states allow anyone to vote others require party registration, so political enemies deliberately register in order to support a poor candidate they hope will take out a successful one.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> No you wouldn't, the average guy would be able to vote.


And the average guy would then support a failing candidate in one party to increase the odds of their own party leader winning an election.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> And the average guy would then support a failing candidate in one party to increase the odds of their own party leader winning an election.


Well, why vote at all? Maybe we should Crown a King or Queen.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Well, why vote at all? Maybe we should Crown a King or Queen.


Because choosing a party leader is the business of the party, choosing the head of government is the business of the people. If they hate all of the choices offered on federal election day, they can start up a new party.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Because choosing a party leader is the business of the party, choosing the head of government is the business of the people. If they hate all of the choices offered on federal election day, they can start up a new party.


I agree, but we don't elect a head of government we elect a parliament. My approach is based on trying to get a more democratic and inclusive method to select the party leaders.

The issue with the current party election system is it is too prone to party hack influence. I have always believed that we should have a say in who runs and who leads. While I like much of the U.S. system, especially the voting for a leader, it has become contaminated by its two party system. Even dog catchers have a R or D after their name. It also leads to the past 10 years of ineffective government in the U.S. with one side blocking the other...but here we have endless minority government falling and elections..... so take your pick i guess.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I agree, but we don't elect a head of government we elect a parliament. My approach is based on trying to get a more democratic and inclusive method to select the party leaders.


Here's a scenario:

The Liberals have a winning candidate that they know will likely take the election. Your inclusive democratic method takes place and Conservative and NDP citizens skew the vote so that a poor candidate is nominated. The Liberals are then forced to run a candidate that they believe will lose, who enjoys little support from within the party and will not represent the goals of the party.

How is that more democratic?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Here's a scenario:
> 
> The Liberals have a winning candidate that they know will likely take the election. Your inclusive democratic method takes place and Conservative and NDP citizens skew the vote so that a poor candidate is nominated. The Liberals are then forced to run a candidate that they believe will lose, who enjoys little support from within the party and will not represent the goals of the party.
> 
> How is that more democratic?


Okay, but you missed the point....we are talking about selecting a party leader here. I would suggest that such a tactic would not go unnoticed and can be returned in kind when the other party"s leadership review is up. In fact, as you pointed out in a prior post, the U.S. could have such a flaw now..... so how did that work out for the Dems?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> How would that work? At best you could prove you represented _some_ people in each province.



No, you REPRESENT all people of Canada. You may not AGREE with everyone everywhere, but you do your best not play favourites. To purposely skip a debate in Quebec because you don't speak French, for example, pretty much excludes you from being able to lead any federal party. Hell, even the BQ leaders made sure they could also communicate in English.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Agreed. A "culling" is anti-democratic.



That's exactly why we should have more parties on the right, not less. Canadians want choice!


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Agreed. A "culling" is anti-democratic.


The animal world would not exist without culling.

Did I mention we are animals?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> The animal world would not exist without culling.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I mention we are animals?



Ummm. Culling humans is also known as murder. Unless you don't really mean culling.


----------



## Macfury

It will be returned in kind. Its not an improvement and it would not necessarily lead to any better outcome.



Rps said:


> Okay, but you missed the point....we are talking about selecting a party leader here. I would suggest that such a tactic would not go unnoticed and can be returned in kind when the other party"s leadership review is up. In fact, as you pointed out in a prior post, the U.S. could have such a flaw now..... so how did that work out for the Dems?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> No, you REPRESENT all people of Canada. You may not AGREE with everyone everywhere, but you do your best not play favourites. To purposely skip a debate in Quebec because you don't speak French, for example, pretty much excludes you from being able to lead any federal party. Hell, even the BQ leaders made sure they could also communicate in English.


He would represent them without speaking French. Throw the die on election day and take your chances!


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> No, you REPRESENT all people of Canada. You may not AGREE with everyone everywhere, but you do your best not play favourites. To purposely skip a debate in Quebec because you don't speak French, for example, pretty much excludes you from being able to lead any federal party. Hell, even the BQ leaders made sure they could also communicate in English.


Since when does catering to a bit over 20% of the country who now continue to speak french become a requirement to lead? I support a leader who represents the 3/4 of the country who do not speak french to lead. Enough of the Quebecer PMs. Their days are coming to an end and the sooner the better.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Since when does catering to a bit over 20% of the country who now continue to speak french become a requirement to lead? I support a leader who represents the 3/4 of the country who do not speak french to lead. Enough of the Quebecer PMs. Their days are coming to an end and the sooner the better.


Agreed, SINC.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Since when does catering to a bit over 20% of the country who now continue to speak french become a requirement to lead? I support a leader who represents the 3/4 of the country who do not speak french to lead. Enough of the Quebecer PMs. Their days are coming to an end and the sooner the better.



Better brush up on your Canadian history there, Don, especially the part about how Confederation came to be. It is not necessary for you to agree, by the way, about what constitutes Canada. Perhaps if you don't like it here, a nice retirement home somewhere in the USA might be more to your liking.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Better brush up on your Canadian history there, Don, especially the part about how Confederation came to be. It is not necessary for you to agree, by the way, about what constitutes Canada. Perhaps if you don't like it here, a nice retirement home somewhere in the USA might be more to your liking.


The times they are a changin' Frank. I guess you have not noticed. That figures since I have lived a lot more of Canada's history than you.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Better brush up on your Canadian history there, Don, especially the part about how Confederation came to be. It is not necessary for you to agree, by the way, about what constitutes Canada. Perhaps if you don't like it here, a nice retirement home somewhere in the USA might be more to your liking.


SINC is right. Why bother leaving? If you stay in Canada long enough, French will continue its precipitous decline as the second-most popular native tongue.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> SINC is right. Why bother leaving? If you stay in Canada long enough, French will continue its precipitous decline as the second-most popular native tongue.


Agreed. Here in Windsor its heritage was French, English and Italian. As of today the languages spoken are English, Arabic in that order.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Both!
> 
> Tuideau's idea is inane and...
> 
> some states allow anyone to vote others require party registration, so political enemies deliberately register in order to support a poor candidate they hope will take out a successful one.


I didn't know that was allowed in the US, what f**cked up system that is.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> I agree, but we don't elect a head of government we elect a parliament. My approach is based on trying to get a more democratic and inclusive method to select the party leaders.
> 
> The issue with the current party election system is it is too prone to party hack influence. I have always believed that we should have a say in who runs and who leads. While I like much of the U.S. system, especially the voting for a leader, it has become contaminated by its two party system. Even dog catchers have a R or D after their name. It also leads to the past 10 years of ineffective government in the U.S. with one side blocking the other..*.but here we have endless minority government falling and elections*..... so take your pick i guess.



That simply is not true. There have been many extended periods of majority governments. Minorities happen when all parties are seen to be relatively weak and none them have enough support across the country to win enough ridings to form a majority in the House.

Agreed we do not directly vote for a leader in this country. However there can be no denying that whoever is the leader of any given party greatly influences the electorates choice of which person they vote for in a riding becuase of who the leader is of the party that the person belongs to.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> And the average guy would then support a failing candidate in one party to increase the odds of their own party leader winning an election.


Exactly.


----------



## FeXL

screature said:


> However there can be no denying that whoever is the leader of any given party greatly influences the electorates choice of which person they vote for in a riding becuase of who the leader is of the party that the person belongs to.


I disagree.

No matter how weak, controversial, insert-any-other-negative-descriptor the leader of the Conservatives is, there is nothing on this planet that would compel me to hold my nose & vote for a strong, charismatic, insert-any-other-positive-descriptor local Liberal or NDP candiate.

Nothing. 

It's not who the leader is. It's what the party historically has stood for.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> I disagree.
> 
> No matter how weak, controversial, insert-any-other-negative-descriptor the leader of the Conservatives is, there is nothing on this planet that would compel me to hold my nose & vote for a strong, charismatic, insert-any-other-positive-descriptor local Liberal or NDP candiate.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> It's not who the leader is. It's what the party historically has stood for.


Well that may be you because you are strongly partisan. Most people in Canada are not, they reside in middle and can be swayed one way or the other depending on many factors, one of them being, who is the leader of a party. Why do you think the Orange wave occurred in Quebec? It was in large part because Jack Layton was the leader of the NDP.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well that may be you because you are strongly partisan. Most people in Canada are not, they reside in middle and can be swayed one way or the other depending on many factors, one of them being, who is the leader of a party. Why do you think the Orange wave occurred in Quebec? It was in large part because Jack Layton was the leader of the NDP.


It struck me that Layton's offer to open the door to separatism just a crack was more important than Layton himself.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> The times they are a changin' Frank. I guess you have not noticed. That figures since I have lived a lot more of Canada's history than you.



How much time have you spent in Quebec, Don?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Well that may be you because you are strongly partisan. Most people in Canada are not, they reside in middle and can be swayed one way or the other depending on many factors, one of them being, who is the leader of a party. Why do you think the Orange wave occurred in Quebec? It was in large part because Jack Layton was the leader of the NDP.



You are right on the money here. Paix, mon ami. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> How much time have you spent in Quebec, Don?


One visit Frank, many years back in the 70s and the way I was treated for not being able to speak French turned my stomach at the time and gave me an impression of the province I will never forget nor forgive. Rude bastards they were, not representative of my Canada back then. Never had any inclination to return.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed here. Nothing could make me vote for the NDP under any circumstances--their policies are simply destructive at any level. I have never seen a Liberal leader worth supporting in my lifetime and the Greens are out to lunch.



FeXL said:


> I disagree.
> 
> No matter how weak, controversial, insert-any-other-negative-descriptor the leader of the Conservatives is, there is nothing on this planet that would compel me to hold my nose & vote for a strong, charismatic, insert-any-other-positive-descriptor local Liberal or NDP candiate.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> It's not who the leader is. It's what the party historically has stood for.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> How much time have you spent in Quebec, Don?


You're not going to go on about the experience you gained visiting Quebec City again are you?


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It struck me that Layton's offer to open the door to separatism just a crack was more important than Layton himself.


I disagree, if that were the case they would have stuck with the BQ. Quebec is largely a left of centre province. Beau Jack, as he was referred to, was a native son being born in Hudson Quebec and he could represent the Province' leftist leaning and be an alternative to the BQ with whom many, many Quebecers had become dissatisfied. Also if they formed Government or even Official Opposition (which they did) Quebec interests would be more greatly represented in Ottawa.

All that plus the man had great charisma, he was a major reason for the Orange Wave in Quebec.

I live in Quebec and even anglophones who usually would be voting Liberal voted NDP primarily because of him, I did. I always vote strategically because I live in Quebec, I vote for a Federalist party. Because of where I live voting conservative is throwing away my vote, so I used always for Liberal. But like many other anglophones here we became fed up with the corrupt and lazy MPs, that figured they would always get voted in by federalists. I for one despised my Libreal MP and could no longer vote for him and I liked Jack vs. Michael far more. My case is not unique.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Agreed here. Nothing could make me vote for the NDP under any circumstances--their policies are simply destructive at any level. I have never seen a Liberal leader worth supporting in my lifetime and the Greens are out to lunch.


See my response to FeXL. You are not like most Canadians when it comes to the degree of your partisanship.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> See my response to FeXL. You are not like most Canadians when it comes to the degree of your partisanship.


Screature an issue which has never gone way in Canada is the question of " do I vote for the person or do I vote for the Party". I have been in ridings where we have had a great local member, but hated the leader...the local got in inspire of the view of the leader. I have also lived in ridings where we had a great local member but that person was dumped because many could not take the chance of getting the leader in power. If we could vote separately for our leader the election results would be quite interesting I think.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> See my response to FeXL. You are not like most Canadians when it comes to the degree of your partisanship.


It's not partisanship, which suggests I side with the organization. It's the guiding philosophy I side with. I have seen a few Liberal leader candidates open the door a crack--for example, supporting an end to supply management--but they never get promoted. 

Most people I know in Toronto always vote Liberal--or say they do anyway.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Screature an issue which has never gone way in Canada is the question of " do I vote for the person or do I vote for the Party". I have been in ridings where we have had a great local member, but hated the leader...the local got in inspire of the view of the leader. I have also lived in ridings where we had a great local member but that person was dumped because many could not take the chance of getting the leader in power. If we could vote separately for our leader the election results would be quite interesting I think.


Personally, I have done both. I have voted for the PCs, Liberals, NDP and Green party candidate based on the candidate, but also for the party. St. John's East is an interesting riding, and during my time there had a PC, Liberal and NDP member of Parliament. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> One visit Frank, many years back in the 70s and the way I was treated for not being able to speak French turned my stomach at the time and gave me an impression of the province I will never forget nor forgive. Rude bastards they were, not representative of my Canada back then. Never had any inclination to return.



See, I experienced just the opposite, and I'm clearly an anglophone. The people were wonderful and polite, and took my tourist money quite happily. I was with a school group that spoke French, but still. I believe our experience absolutely colours our perception. That's why I am sympathetic to Quebec and you are not, I imagine.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You're not going to go on about the experience you gained visiting Quebec City again are you?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Screature an issue which has never gone way in Canada is the question of " do I vote for the person or do I vote for the Party". I have been in ridings where we have had a great local member, but hated the leader...the local got in inspire of the view of the leader. I have also lived in ridings where we had a great local member but that person was dumped because many could not take the chance of getting the leader in power. If we could vote separately for our leader the election results would be quite interesting I think.



And also quite possibly mired in the kind of partisanship we see in the USA, where you get a President representing one party and Congress representing another. It's like trying to get things done with a minority government.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> And also quite possibly mired in the kind of partisanship we see in the USA, where you get a President representing one party and Congress representing another. It's like trying to get things done with a minority government.


PM Lester Pearson did some great things for Canada as the PM of two back-to-back Liberal minority governments following elections in 1963 and 1965.

"During Pearson's time as Prime Minister, his Liberal minority governments introduced universal health care, student loans, the Canada Pension Plan, the Order of Canada, and the Maple Leaf flag. His Liberal government also unified Canada's armed forces. Pearson convened the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, and he kept Canada out of the Vietnam War. In 1967, his government passed Bill C-168, which abolished de facto capital punishment in Canada by restricting it to a few capital offenses for which it was never used, and which themselves were abolished in 1976. With these accomplishments, together with his groundbreaking work at the United Nations and in international diplomacy, Pearson is generally considered among the most influential Canadians of the 20th century and is ranked among the top six greatest Canadian Prime Ministers."

He also won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1957 for organizing the United Nations Emergency Force to resolve the Suez Canal Crisis.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> That simply is not true. There have been many extended periods of majority governments. Minorities happen when all parties are seen to be relatively weak and none them have enough support across the country to win enough ridings to form a majority in the House.
> 
> Agreed we do not directly vote for a leader in this country. However there can be no denying that whoever is the leader of any given party greatly influences the electorates choice of which person they vote for in a riding becuase of who the leader is of the party that the person belongs to.


From 2004 to 2011 we were in a minority situation were we not, what was the average term...about 1 year and 1/2 years.......


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> PM Lester Pearson did some great things for Canada as the PM of two back-to-back Liberal minority governments following elections in 1963 and 1965.
> 
> 
> 
> "During Pearson's time as Prime Minister, his Liberal minority governments introduced universal health care, student loans, the Canada Pension Plan, the Order of Canada, and the Maple Leaf flag. His Liberal government also unified Canada's armed forces. Pearson convened the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, and he kept Canada out of the Vietnam War. In 1967, his government passed Bill C-168, which abolished de facto capital punishment in Canada by restricting it to a few capital offenses for which it was never used, and which themselves were abolished in 1976. With these accomplishments, together with his groundbreaking work at the United Nations and in international diplomacy, Pearson is generally considered among the most influential Canadians of the 20th century and is ranked among the top six greatest Canadian Prime Ministers."
> 
> 
> 
> He also won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1957 for organizing the United Nations Emergency Force to resolve the Suez Canal Crisis.



Good points, mon ami. I'm not sure today's politicians are as interested in working together for the good of the country though.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> See, I experienced just the opposite, and I'm clearly an anglophone. The people were wonderful and polite, and took my tourist money quite happily. *I was with a school group that spoke French*, but still. I believe our experience absolutely colours our perception. That's why I am sympathetic to Quebec and you are not, I imagine.


Exactly my point. When I could not, the treatment was opposite.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Good points, mon ami. I'm not sure today's politicians are as interested in working together for the good of the country though.


Well, I think that there are some MPs from each party that will want to do what is best for Canada.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Exactly my point. When I could not, the treatment was opposite.



Still. We did a lot of shopping and looking around on our own as well. Maybe I was just in the part of town that's nice to tourists, but I did not discover any of the animosity I had read so much about it. I'm not discounting your experience, and you should not discount mine. We all see the world from our perspective. There's three sides to every story; yours, mine, and the cold hard truth.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Still. We did a lot of shopping and looking around on our own as well. Maybe I was just in the part of town that's nice to tourists, but I did not discover any of the animosity I had read so much about it. I'm not discounting your experience, and you should not discount mine. We all see the world from our perspective. There's three sides to every story; yours, mine, and the cold hard truth.


I was in the rural countryside trying to buy gas and food, not in a tourist area. Try that with no english. Felt like I was in a foreign country and that seemed to be just how they wanted me to feel. Some Canadians they were.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> See, I experienced just the opposite, and I'm clearly an anglophone. The people were wonderful and polite, and took my tourist money quite happily. I was with a school group that spoke French, but still. I believe our experience absolutely colours our perception. That's why I am sympathetic to Quebec and you are not, I imagine.


Oh good grief, not again!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I was in the rural countryside trying to buy gas and food, not in a tourist area. Try that with no english. Felt like I was in a foreign country and that seemed to be just how they wanted me to feel. Some Canadians they were.



Sorry to hear that, Don. That must have been frustrating.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Screature an issue which has never gone way in Canada is the question of " do I vote for the person or do I vote for the Party". I have been in ridings where we have had a great local member, but hated the leader...the local got in inspire of the view of the leader. I have also lived in ridings where we had a great local member but that person was dumped because many could not take the chance of getting the leader in power. *If we could vote separately for our leader the election results would be quite interesting I think.*


I agree. I have long been an advocate that on election day we have 2 ballots, one for our local MP and one for PM.

Now I do believe that for dyed in the wool partisans like FeXL and MF (based on philosophical beliefs) they would undoubtedly vote in both cases for the MP and PM who are of the same party. But I also do think that there will be many, many who vote for the local MP who comes from a different Party than the leader of their choice.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> From 2004 to 2011 we were in a minority situation were we not, what was the average term...about 1 year and 1/2 years.......


That was an anomaly and not the norm and you should know that.


----------



## FeXL

So, just for the helluvit, I looked up an online definition of "partisan", just to make sure we're talkin' the same language.

I found a number of definitions on The Free Dictionary. Here's two:



> 1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) an adherent or devotee of a cause, party, etc


and



> 1. an adherent or supporter of a person, party, or cause, esp. one who shows a biased, unthinking allegiance.


I would say that I am a partisan in the sense of the first, but certainly not the second, which is what you seem to be accusing me of.

Unthinking? Not even close.

I have not seen a left of centre gov't in this country in my life that changed it's colours upon being elected. Liberals, NDP, they all promise the world to get elected, fiduciary responsibility, etc., & once they get in it's spend, spend, spend (see Red Rachel & The Hairdo) and it's up to the next right of centre gov't to clean up the mess.

Ain't interested in that, on either side, which is also why I particularly dislike CINO's.

That's why I vote right. It ain't blind obeisance. Like MF, it's the guiding philosophy.

I question stupid things the right does, too, which is more than many of the sheep supporting the left on these boards can say.



screature said:


> Well that may be you because you are strongly partisan.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> So, just for the helluvit, I looked up an online definition of "partisan", just to make sure we're talkin' the same language.
> 
> I found a number of definitions on The Free Dictionary. Here's two:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that I am a partisan in the sense of the first, but certainly not the second, which is what you seem to be accusing me of.
> 
> Unthinking? Not even close.
> 
> I have not seen a left of centre gov't in this country in my life that changed it's colours upon being elected. Liberals, NDP, they all promise the world to get elected, fiduciary responsibility, etc., & once they get in it's spend, spend, spend (see Red Rachel & The Hairdo) and it's up to the next right of centre gov't to clean up the mess.
> 
> Ain't interested in that, on either side, which is also why I particularly dislike CINO's.
> 
> That's why I vote right. It ain't blind obeisance. Like MF, it's the guiding philosophy.
> 
> I question stupid things the right does, too, which is more than many of the sheep supporting the left on these boards can say.


You focused on one secondary part of the definition of partisan that is not necessary or required for the rest of the definition to be true. What you focused on did not even cross my mind. I know you are a thoughtful man, I sure as hell don't agree with you on most things but I never think of you as a brainless follower of anything. You just happen to passionately support what I do not in the case of the Donald and probably several other things.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> That was an anomaly and not the norm and you should know that.


Ah yes, but remember you are talking with a retired risk manager here.....worst case was the norm for me.


----------



## screature

Rps said:


> Ah yes, but remember you are talking with a retired risk manager here.....worst case was the norm for me.


Ok, fair enough.

Peace.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> You focused on one secondary part of the definition of partisan that is not necessary or required for the rest of the definition to be true. What you focused on did not even cross my mind. I know you are a thoughtful man, I sure as hell don't agree with you on most things but I never think of you as a brainless follower of anything. You just happen to passionately support what I do not in the case of the Donald and probably several other things.



I just assumed "party" and "partisan"were variations of the same term, like "fan" and "fanatic."


----------



## FeXL

Stupid, stupid, stupid...

Leitch pictured firing Walther P1 in fundraising email to her Conservative Party supporters, not a Nazi-era handgun, says gun owner



> OTTAWA—An email blast from Conservative leadership candidate Kellie Leitch to supporters shows her firing a 1972 Walther P1, not what two national gun associations had identified as a Nazi-era semi-automatic weapon, a 9mm Walther P38, the owner of the gun told The Hill Times later Tuesday night after reading the story.


I'm so tired of this whole Nazi thing I wanna hurl in technicolour every time I hear the word...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Stupid, stupid, stupid...
> 
> 
> 
> Leitch pictured firing Walther P1 in fundraising email to her Conservative Party supporters, not a Nazi-era handgun, says gun owner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so tired of this whole Nazi thing I wanna hurl in technicolour every time I hear the word...



You should. They were some bad hombres.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Stupid, stupid, stupid...
> 
> Leitch pictured firing Walther P1 in fundraising email to her Conservative Party supporters, not a Nazi-era handgun, says gun owner
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so tired of this whole Nazi thing I wanna hurl in technicolour every time I hear the word...


I agree! She is a DR. for Christ's sake, she is not advocating the use of hand guns to kill people or anything else, but for sport and a test of skill.

Cripes even the summer Olympics gives out medals for hand gun shooting accuracy. Next it will be dart's, you know the kind that you throw at a target mostly in bars, they can injure people so they should be banned... Oh also archery, arrows can kill and do kill, primarily deer and other medium sized game, that should be banned as well...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> I agree! She is a DR. for Christ's sake, she is not advocating the use of hand guns to kill people or anything else, but for sport and a test of skill.
> 
> 
> 
> Cripes even the summer Olympics gives out medals for hand gun shooting accuracy. Next it will be dart's, you know the kind that you throw at a target mostly in bars, they can injure people so they should be banned... Oh also archery, arrows can kill and do kill, primarily deer and other medium sized game, that should be banned as well...



Rather than ban weapons, they should be allowing new and bigger ones. Grenade launchers would be cool, or maybe people with big yards could have their own tanks. My sentimental favorite though would be light sabres, if they could ever make them real. Got a noisy neighbourhood dog? Kids climbing your trees or raising your garden again? How cool that would be.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Rather than ban weapons, they should be allowing new and bigger ones. Grenade launchers would be cool, or maybe people with big yards could have their own tanks. My sentimental favorite though would be light sabres, if they could ever make them real. Got a noisy neighbourhood dog? Kids climbing your trees or raising your garden again? How cool that would be.


You do know that sarcasm is the lowest form of humour right. Why do you constantly need to pick a fight? Your posts have become increasingly aggressive, with no real need for it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> You do know that sarcasm is the lowest form of humour right. Why do you constantly need to pick a fight? Your posts have become increasingly aggressive, with no real need for it.



Sorry, buddy. The pun is the lowest form of humour. Sarcasm is quite up there. It's how Trump has made SNL Great Again. 

Not meaning to hurt your feelings, in any event, but I do find the defence of gun culture rather, uh, deplorable. Watch American Sniper again, especially the scene where Chris Kyle is playing with the gun (loaded or not) with his wife in the kitchen, shortly before he is killed at the shooting range by a former marine. That is gun culture writ large, amigo.


----------



## FUXL

Sooie,Sooie!!
Sooie!!!


Video shows Kellie Leitch at ‘deeply troubling’ meeting with group that called for ban on Muslims


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Sooie,Sooie!!
> 
> Sooie!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video shows Kellie Leitch at ‘deeply troubling’ meeting with group that called for ban on Muslims



You are with whom you associate.


----------



## Macfury

You find it "uh, desireable"?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You find it "uh, desireable"?




Yup. Absolutely. Actually I desired to say delorable, but Obama was watching me from my microwave again and threw me off.


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> Sooie,Sooie!!
> Sooie!!!
> 
> 
> Video shows Kellie Leitch at ‘deeply troubling’ meeting with group that called for ban on Muslims


.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Sorry, buddy. The pun is the lowest form of humour. Sarcasm is quite up there. It's how Trump has made SNL Great Again.
> 
> Not meaning to hurt your feelings, in any event, but I do find the defence of gun culture rather, uh, deplorable. Watch American Sniper again, especially the scene where Chris Kyle is playing with the gun (loaded or not) with his wife in the kitchen, shortly before he is killed at the shooting range by a former marine. That is gun culture writ large, amigo.


It is debatable for sure. But a pun is not meant to be derogatory, whereas sarcasm is so I still see sacrcasm as being the lowest form of humour/wit.


Why is sarcasm the lowest form of wit?


I am not your buddy or your amigo and you didn't hurt my feelings in the least, I don't care enough about what you think or have to say to hurt my feelings.. I don't know you from a hole in the ground, I actually know more about a hole in the ground. 

But, I have been here a long time and I have noticed a change in your posts over some time and you seem to grow more and more aggressive toward what other people post, without much provocation at all. I actually kind of feel sorry for you as you constantly do nothing but try to make enemies with anyone who remotely disagrees with you.

Just an observation on my part and of course, as always, I could be wrong.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> It is debatable for sure. But a pun is not meant to be derogatory, whereas sarcasm is so I still see sacrcasm as being the lowest form of humour/wit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is sarcasm the lowest form of wit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not your buddy or your amigo and you didn't hurt my feelings in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually kind of feel sorry for you as constantly do nothing but try to make enemies with anyone who remotely disagrees with you.




Well fine, then. I tried to be civil. If you don't accept my apology, that's fine. Your call. I do find it odd that you would get so upset about me using the reverse psychology tactic about allowing larger weapons when you were talking about banning lawn darts only moments before, though.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> .



Yes, I believe you've used this one before, Don. Reminds me of Prentice and his "mirror" comment, truth be told.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Well fine, then. *I tried to be civil*. If you don't accept my apology, that's fine. Your call.


No you didn't, not in the least.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> No you didn't, not in the least.



Whatever. Have a nice evening, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> No you didn't, not in the least.



Whatever. I'm not responsible for your emotional state. Have a nice evening, mon ami. I know I will.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Just an observation on my part and of course, as always, I could be wrong.



I appreciate your interest in my well-being, just as I am interested that you are okay, and I can honestly say that with the approximately ten or so people who post on this forum regularly, I encounter about two or three who troll pretty much every word I say. It is not at all civil. They are almost always confrontational and antagonistic in their approach to discourse. Sometimes I ignore, sometimes I react, sometimes I outwit, sometimes I don't. It is very tiring to have to defend my views so much, when I know my views are shared by a great many in the real world. There are about two or three who I know I can count on for support, if they're reading, and the others are lurkers. Thank God/Allah/the Great Spirit there are other forums where I go where the spirit of polite political discourse is still alive and well. This place, unfortunately, has become very predictable. C'est la vie, je pense.

And here come the predictable reactions in 3...2...1....

Unless I say that, which is kind of a dare, so perhaps the trolls will take a break.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> ...sometimes I outwit,


That would be great to see. Let us know the next time it happens!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> That would be great to see. Let us know the next time it happens!



Congratulations. I knew you couldn't resist the cheap shot. Apparently there's your example. Hook, line and sinker.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Congratulations. I knew you couldn't resist the cheap shot. Apparently there's your example. Hook, line and sinker.


Apparently an example of what? You've already been served notice that making an outrageous claim will result in a request for proof. 

Doing a little countdown doesn't exempt you from that!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Apparently an example of what? You've already been served notice that making an outrageous claim will result in a request for proof.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing a little countdown doesn't exempt you from that!



And the hits just keep on coming. You're nothing if not consistent, sonny Jim.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> *It is very tiring to have to defend my views so much*, when I know my views are shared by a great many in the real world. There are about two or three who I know I can count on for support...


Here is the crux of why your posts attract the type of attention you don't want. You think that because your views are so mainstream and "establishment" that you simply shouldn't be counted on to defend them.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Here is the crux of why your posts attract the type of attention you don't want. You think that because your views are so mainstream and "establishment" that you simply shouldn't be counted on to defend them.



You don't defend your views very often either, mon ami. You make some pretty outrageous claims and assume you do n't have to defend them because you have a few allies here. Pot, meet kettle. 

It would be nice, for once, to have a conversation where we just accept our differences without the constant antagonism. It gets boring and time-consuming, to be honest. Bon matin, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

I consistently defend my views. That's what I enjoy about coming here. 

However, it isn't a "conversation" when people just post any golden turd that drops out of their backside and then walk away without taking responsibility for it. Yes, of course it's time consuming to take responsibility for what you say, and maybe that bores low energy types. EhMac is not a place where you can express your ideas in a vacuum.

I don't understand your emphasis on "allies". Some people will agree, some don't. It's a marketplace of ideas. I've taken hits from many people here for my own lapses in logic. I love to have my arguments tightened up by someone who knows how to find a hole in them.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You don't defend your views very often either, mon ami. You make some pretty outrageous claims and assume you do n't have to defend them because you have a few allies here. Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> It would be nice, for once, to have a conversation where we just accept our differences without the constant antagonism. It gets boring and time-consuming, to be honest. Bon matin, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I consistently defend my views. That's what I enjoy about coming here.
> 
> 
> 
> However, it isn't a "conversation" when people just post any golden turd that drops out of their backside and then walk away without taking responsibility for it. Yes, of course it's time consuming to take responsibility for what you say, and maybe that bores low energy types. EhMac is not a place where you can express your ideas in a vacuum.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand your emphasis on "allies". Some people will agree, some don't. It's a marketplace of ideas. I've taken hits from many people here for my own lapses in logic. I love to have my arguments tightened up by someone who knows how to find a hole in them.



A "marketplace of ideas." Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it. The problem as I see it is that you cannot conceive of any purpose for a discussion forum and the form that discussion must take beyond your rather linear sequential views. Random abstract thinking appears to make you uneasy. People, however, come in all shapes and sizes and temperaments, and have many different communication styles. I think you need to be more tolerant of these differences or you run the risk of becoming boorish.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> A "marketplace of ideas." Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it. The problem as I see it is that you cannot conceive of any purpose for a discussion forum and the form that discussion must take beyond your rather linear sequential views. Random abstract thinking appears to make you uneasy. People, however, come in all shapes and sizes and temperaments, and have many different communication styles. I think you need to be more tolerant of these differences or you run the risk of becoming boorish.


I like random, abstract thinking--as long as it is thoughtful.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I like random, abstract thinking--as long as it is thoughtful.




Does it ever occur to you that a random thoughtful thought may not seem thoughtful to you at the moment, even though it is? Some of us opt for the long game sometimes. Some of us opt to let the meme or political cartoon stand for itself; to define the humour is to destroy it. Sometimes I read something I don't understand it, but rather than challenge the originator, I just let it pass to keep the peace.


----------



## Macfury

No, that hasn't occurred to me in these cases. In other places, yes. In most cases "the long game" is used as an excuse for "no game."

And I won't let a meme go unchallenged if it contains gross innaccuracies.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Does it ever occur to you that a random thoughtful thought may not seem thoughtful to you at the moment, even though it is? Some of us opt for the long game sometimes. Some of us opt to let the meme or political cartoon stand for itself; to define the humour is to destroy it. Sometimes I read something I don't understand it, but rather than challenge the originator, I just let it pass to keep the peace.


----------



## screature

Not to any one in particular, I just think it is a good thing to practice.

... breath... 10 in and 10 out, breath deeply through your nose (if you can, if you can't breath through your mouth) hold in your breath for as long as it is comfortable, then release slowly for at least as long as you held your breath and repeat... that is what my wife has shown me... she is an Ascended Grand Master of Reiki and also a life time mediator and instructor to others in both fields. I was a doubter to start, but if you practice regularly it can actually help you. I know and I need to do it a lot more.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> Not to any one in particular, I just think it is a good thing to practice.
> 
> ... breath... 10 in and 10 out, breath deeply through your nose (if you can, if you can't breath through your mouth) hold in your breath for as long as it is comfortable, then release slowly for at least as long as you held your breath and repeat... that is what my wife has shown me... she is an Ascended Grand Master of Reiki and also a life time mediator and instructor to others in both fields. I was a doubter to start, but if you practice regularly it can actually help you. I know and I need to do it a lot more.


:clap::clap: A great idea, screature. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> No, that hasn't occurred to me in these cases. In other places, yes. In most cases "the long game" is used as an excuse for "no game."
> 
> 
> 
> And I won't let a meme go unchallenged if it contains gross innaccuracies.


----------



## Macfury

I think you're both, Freddie--a flaming moth!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I think you're both, Freddie--a flaming moth!



And once again, you miss the irony. Well, you're nothing if not consistent.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> And once again, you miss the irony. Well, you're nothing if not consistent.


I think he gets it, probably at least 1000 posts back or more. He just does not agree with you or you with him on a wide variety of topics. It is just that simple.

BUT I do have to agree with MF. If you are going to present a point of view be willing to defend it with your own words and or research. 

It seems that you think that in a logical debate that should not be necessary. I don't get that.

Cripes! I am lousy at not talking to people...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> I think he gets it, probably at least 1000 posts back or more. He just does not agree with you or you with him on a wide variety of topics. It is just that simple.



The last word: that coveted prize among certain conversationalists. Face it, Steve, MF and I really have little in common value wise or sense of humour wise. That is unlikely to change. Do you ever visit MacDiscussions, Steve?


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> *The last word: that coveted prize among certain conversationalists*. Face it, Steve, MF and I really have little in common value wise or sense of humour wise. That is unlikely to change. Do you ever visit *MacDiscussions*, Steve?


Yes I think that most debaters prize that.

A long time ago, it is of no interest to me... too many formal rules and regulations, including ruling mods... not interested.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Well, they are a whole lot more polite to one another. Not so much needless drama—that's a plus. 

In other news, looks like JT is not quite so unpopular as some people in these parts might claim.



> Justin Trudeau would win another federal election tomorrow: Ipsos poll
> 
> Rahul Kalvapalle
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s approval rating has dropped somewhat over the past year and a half, but it remains the envy of most world leaders, according to a new Ipsos poll conducted on behalf of Global News.
> 
> The poll found that over half of Canadians (56 per cent) continue to approve of the Liberal government, down from 61 per cent since the New Year. Disapproval of Trudeau’s performance climbed five points up to 44 per cent.
> 
> Thirty-nine per cent of decided voters would cast a ballot for the Liberals if an election were held tomorrow, while the Conservatives would win 32 per cent of the vote and the NDP 20 per cent — virtually identical to the results of the 2015 federal election, the survey found.
> 
> READ MORE: Trudeau should only be in question period once a week, report says. No, Tories say.
> 
> Darrell Bricker, CEO of Ipsos Public Affairs, attributed the five-point drop in Trudeau’s approval to the fact that “over time, any political leader tends to wear on people a little bit and he’s had his bumps and bruises.”
> 
> The bumps and bruises in question range from an increase in the federal deficit to Trudeau’s failure to deliver on his campaign cry for electoral reform, not to mention “personal comportment issues” such as his Christmas vacation on the Aga Khan‘s private island and controversies surrounding cash-for-access fundraisers.
> 
> READ MORE: Federal budget 2017: Trudeau government projects $28.5 billion deficit in 2017-2018
> 
> But these woes haven’t made as big a dent in Trudeau’s approval numbers as one might expect, Bricker said.
> 
> “With all the things that have happened over the past two years, you’d expect to see something change, but nothing has.”
> 
> However, Bricker cautions that there’s potential for a more significant slide in Trudeau’s approval numbers once the Conservatives and NDP secure their new party leaders.
> 
> READ MORE: Exclusive: Kevin O’Leary Conservatives could pose threat to Justin Trudeau Liberals in 2019: Ipsos poll
> 
> “We’ll see when people look at the potential of another person being the prime minister, whether or not they look at [Trudeau] and say ‘I’m pretty happy with him’ or we start to see further erosion,” he said.
> 
> “Right now he’s only able to achieve that [approval rating] facing nobody.”
> 
> Trudeau’s approval ratings were highest in British Columbia (61 per cent), Ontario (59 per cent) and Quebec (59 per cent), and lowest by far in Alberta (35 per cent), suggesting that his support of the Trans Mountain and Line 3 pipelines hasn’t translated to the burst in support from Albertans that he might have hoped for.
> 
> WATCH: Alberta reacts to pipeline project approvals
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, the Conservative Party can be quietly encouraged by its 32 per cent approval, Bricker said, which shows that they haven’t let Trudeau out of sight while their own party mulls its leadership future.
> 
> “The Tories are no better or worse off than they were back in October 2015, and they weren’t that badly off then. They got 99 seats in the House of Commons and they’ve got a couple of by-elections coming up on Monday in Calgary for example where they should probably win again,” he said.
> 
> The survey also found that people with six-figure incomes were more supportive of the Liberals (44 per cent) than the Conservatives (26 per cent). Respondents with university degrees were also more likely to support the Trudeau government (38 per cent) than his Conservative rivals (25 per cent).
> 
> READ MORE: Trudeau over Trump: more Americans prefer PM as their president: Ipsos poll
> 
> That finding that should help quash long-held misconceptions about the two parties’ support bases, Bricker said.
> 
> “People always think of the Conservative Party as having all the appeal for all the people with money, but that’s never really been the case. Tories tend to be middle-class, self-employed entrepreneurs. They tend to have college educations as opposed to university educations,” he said.
> 
> “They’re not your Bay Street lawyers and senior public servants. Those guys are Liberals.”
> 
> Exclusive Global News Ipsos polls are protected by copyright. The information and/or data may only be rebroadcast or republished with full and proper credit and attribution to “Global News Ipsos.” These are some of the findings of an Ipsos poll conducted between March 28 to 30, 2017, on behalf of Global News. For this survey, a sample of 1,001 Canadians from Ipsos’ online panel was interviewed online. The precision of Ipsos online polls is measured using a credibility interval. In this case, the poll is accurate to within +/ – 3.5 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, had all Canadian adults been polled.


http://globalnews.ca/news/3350202/t...but-still-strong-ipsos-poll/?campaign_id=A100


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Well, they are a whole lot more polite to one another.* Not so much needless drama*—that's a plus.
> 
> In other news, looks like JT is not quite so unpopular as some people in these parts might claim.
> 
> 
> 
> Justin Trudeau would win another federal election tomorrow: Ipsos poll - National | Globalnews.ca



That may be because they know big brother is constantly watching.

You are kidding right?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> That may be because they know big brother is constantly watching.
> 
> You are kidding right?


I've watched those folks cowering and bowing and scraping every time a mod senses a micro-aggression.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> In other news, looks like JT is not quite so unpopular as some people in these parts might claim.


With no actual Conservative party leader in place, that's just about what I would expect.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> That may be because they know big brother is constantly watching.
> 
> 
> 
> You are kidding right?



Nope. Places do exist where people can disagree and still cohabitate peacefully. This place has a lot to learn. Ever wonder why so many left?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> With no actual Conservative party leader in place, that's just about what I would expect.



If O'Leary is the best the Cons can come up with, I don't think JT is going to need to worry at all.


----------



## SINC

I find it odd that those who think JT can be re-elected also think Notley is a shoe in for re-election too. Odd that.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Ever wonder why so many left?


Who needs to wonder? They needed a safe space where they felt their views would be coddled and protected, so they devised a system where they could rat each other out any time they felt threatened.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> If O'Leary is the best the Cons can come up with, I don't think JT is going to need to worry at all.


Do you think he's the best?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I think he gets it, probably at least 1000 posts back or more. He just does not agree with you or you with him on a wide variety of topics. It is just that simple.
> 
> BUT I do have to agree with MF. *If you are going to present a point of view be willing to defend it with your own words and or research. *


That's the crux of it for me. It has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing, liking or not liking, winning or losing. Dr. G. and I sometimes go back and forth on some topics, but once we both do a reasonable job of presenting our points, there's no reason to declare a winner. I learn something from most people here, because they put some care into their posts.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> I find it odd that those who think JT can be re-elected also think Notley is a shoe in for re-election too. Odd that.


I think a lot depends on how homogeneous ones friends and acquaintances are. If you limit yourself to those who think like you it is unlikely you will see the Trumps of the world sneaking up behind.

I think FB would be amazed at how environmentally conscious ranchers and coal miners can be. That said both seem fairly universally opposed to the Knotheads carbon tax, and both anticipate seeing her fall in the next election. Truth is they are intelligent enough to realize that a carbon tax will do zip for the environment, but will hurt them right in the wallet. 

Her sole chance at survival depends on a continued divide between the WR and PCs. Sooner or later Kenney will realize that folding the PCs altogether and joining the WR is the least painful way to effect a merger. The only impediment will be his ego. If he can't get past it, expect the WR and PCs to run selectively and settle for a minority under Brian Jean.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> If he can't get past it, expect the WR and PCs to run selectively and settle for a minority under Brian Jean.


I agree that this is the worst case scenario. No scenario has Notley winning again.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Who needs to wonder? They needed a safe space where they felt their views would be coddled and protected, so they devised a system where they could rat each other out any time they felt threatened.



Boy is that cynical. How about "respected" as opposed to "coddled." I can't say your approach has drummed up much business in the last few years.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> I think a lot depends on how homogeneous ones friends and acquaintances are. If you limit yourself to those who think like you it is unlikely you will see the Trumps of the world sneaking up behind.


Yes. I've noticed over the last few years how limiting this can be to understanding what is going on in the world. Another item is how quickly media smears are parroted by "serious" people.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Boy is that cynical. How about "respected" as opposed to "coddled." I can't say your approach has drummed up much business in the last few years.


In the age of social media, no forum is drumming up much business. But I do stop in at MacDiscussions once in awhile to remind myself what hell must be like.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> In the age of social media, no forum is drumming up much business. But I do stop in at MacDiscussions once in awhile to remind myself what hell must be like.



It's unfortunate you feel that way. It's also unfortunate that you seem to feel that what transpires here much of the time even remotely passes for mature and thoughtful discussion. If this forum is to survive, it would be good to learn from other less inflammatory examples. This place is nowhere near what it could be, or what it once was. To each their own I guess.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> It's unfortunate you feel that way. It's also unfortunate that you seem to feel that what transpires here much of the time even remotely passes for mature and thoughtful discussion. If this forum is to survive, it would be good to learn from other less inflammatory examples. This place is nowhere near what it could be, or what it once was. To each their own I guess.


There actually is plenty of thoughtful discussion that goes one here. Certainly not what it once was in ehMac's "glory days", but still enough, despite the needless childish back and forths that go on.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> It's unfortunate you feel that way. It's also unfortunate that you seem to feel that what transpires here much of the time even remotely passes for mature and thoughtful discussion. If this forum is to survive, it would be good to learn from other less inflammatory examples. This place is nowhere near what it could be, or what it once was. To each their own I guess.


Freddie, this forum survives because it contains a vast amount of ancient clickbait, not because of anything we do now. That's the business model.

Face it, you're a guy who swings wildly between rudeness and false humility. Your posting style is immature and consists more than half the time of posting large pictures. When you post words, they're generally provocative and inflammatory, but you have neither the cojones nor the civility to to stand behind them. You've got a lot of nerve calling for "mature and thoughtful" discussion when much of what you post doesn't approach that bar.

And you are THE ONLY ONE HERE who keeps pissing and moaning about the need for other people to be more polite TO YOU. If you went on a two-week vacation, the issue would die for exactly two weeks.

EhMac is a reflection of the robust contributions of its remaining members. It can't be a safe space designed only to protect your massive ego any time your posts attract scrutiny.

So stop trying to bend everyone to your ideals, hang around and enjoy whatever pleasure this forum offers you and spend the rest of the time at those other places you really love where members call on mods to crush each other at the first sign of offense.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Freddie, this forum survives because it contains a vast amount of ancient clickbait, not because of anything we do now. That's the business model.
> 
> 
> 
> Face it, you're a guy who swings wildly between rudeness and false humility. Your posting style is immature and consists more than half the time of posting large pictures. When you post words, they're generally provocative and inflammatory, but you have neither the cojones nor the civility to to stand behind them. You've got a lot of nerve calling for "mature and thoughtful" discussion when much of what you post doesn't approach that bar.
> 
> 
> 
> And you are THE ONLY ONE HERE who keeps pissing and moaning about the need for other people to be more polite TO YOU. If you went on a two-week vacation, the issue would die for exactly two weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> EhMac is a reflection of the robust contributions of its remaining members. It can't be a safe space designed only to protect your massive ego any time your posts attract scrutiny.
> 
> 
> 
> So stop trying to bend everyone to your ideals, hang around and enjoy whatever pleasure this forum offers you and spend the rest of the time at those other places you really love where members call on mods to crush each other at the first sign of offense.



Talk about presumptuous. No offense, but you might as well be talking into a mirror. I know who the people are here that au can have thoughtful and mature discussions with. You just don't happen to be one of them. And oddly, nine times out of ten, you're the first to respond. "Stop trying to bend everyone to your ideals," you say. That's good advice.


----------



## Macfury

Keep having those great mature discussions with the people you love. Ignore me. It's nothing personal--it's the content of your posts that I want to address. I'm perfectly happy with identifying those contributions that are full of logical holes and then never having you respond again. It doesn't have to be a conversation. No offense will be taken.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Talk about presumptuous. No offense, but you might as well be talking into a mirror. I know who the people are here that au can have thoughtful and mature discussions with. You just don't happen to be one of them. And oddly, nine times out of ten, you're the first to respond. "Stop trying to bend everyone to your ideals," you say. That's good advice.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Keep having those great mature discussions with the people you love. Ignore me. It's nothing personal--it's the content of your posts that I want to address. I'm perfectly happy with identifying those contributions that are full of logical holes and then never having you respond again. It doesn't have to be a conversation. No offense will be taken.



Why don't you simply take your own advice? Ignore me. No offense will be taken. I'll bet you can't.


----------



## Macfury

Why would I ignore them, since I'm happy to respond to the content of deeply illogical posts. It's a public service! 

You're the one bitching and moaning.

(It's pretty funny that you keep posting images from "The Rules of Ladies"...)



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why don't you simply take your own advice? Ignore me. No offense will be taken. I'll bet you can't.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Why would I ignore them, since I'm happy to respond to the content of deeply illogical posts. It's a public service!
> 
> 
> 
> You're the one bitching and moaning.
> 
> 
> 
> (It's pretty funny that you keep posting images from "The Rules of Ladies"...)


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> .....And you are THE ONLY ONE HERE who keeps pissing and moaning about the need for other people to be more polite TO YOU.....


No, he's not. But I've given up wasting my time asking for civility... leopards cannot change their spots.


:-(


----------



## Macfury

It's lame but not fraught with internal illogic. I'll give it pass.


----------



## Macfury

When you did so years ago, it was punctuated by really nasty outbursts on your part.



CubaMark said:


> No, he's not. But I've given up wasting my time asking for civility... leopards cannot change their spots.(


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> No, he's not. But I've given up wasting my time asking for civility... leopards cannot change their spots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :-(




Amen to that, brutha.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> When you did so years ago, it was punctuated by really nasty outbursts on your part.


Indeed... but mine paled in comparison to the instigator, who is consistently foul-mouthed and attacks the person, rather than debate the topic. I didn't start the conflict, I reacted to it - and regret doing so.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> Indeed... but mine paled in comparison to the instigator, who is consistently foul-mouthed and attacks the person, rather than debate the topic. I didn't start the conflict, I reacted to it - and regret doing so.



Civility requires constant vigilance, especially of our own words. Some call that oppression; I call that the common sense way to get along.


----------



## FUXL

M'bold!

*Souiee, souiee, souiee!*

https://www.pressprogress.ca/meet_t..._bankrolling_kellie_leitch_war_against_elites


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> M'bold!
> 
> *Souiee, souiee, souiee!*
> 
> https://www.pressprogress.ca/meet_t..._bankrolling_kellie_leitch_war_against_elites


.


----------



## CubaMark

FUXL said:


> M'bold!
> 
> *Souiee, souiee, souiee!*
> 
> https://www.pressprogress.ca/meet_t..._bankrolling_kellie_leitch_war_against_elites


Leitch is a real piece of work, alright....


----------



## FeXL

Nope. I merely celebrate the fact...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Ever wonder why so many left?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Face it, you're a guy who swings wildly between rudeness and false humility. Your posting style is immature and consists more than half the time of posting large pictures. When you post words, they're generally provocative and inflammatory, but you have neither the cojones nor the civility to to stand behind them. You've got a lot of nerve calling for "mature and thoughtful" discussion when much of what you post doesn't approach that bar.
> 
> And you are THE ONLY ONE HERE who keeps pissing and moaning about the need for other people to be more polite TO YOU. If you went on a two-week vacation, the issue would die for exactly two weeks.
> 
> EhMac is a reflection of the robust contributions of its remaining members. It can't be a safe space designed only to protect your massive ego any time your posts attract scrutiny.
> 
> So stop trying to bend everyone to your ideals, hang around and enjoy whatever pleasure this forum offers you and spend the rest of the time at those other places you really love where members call on mods to crush each other at the first sign of offense.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Macfury

"FUXL" signed off at 8:44 after posting the message below. 

Freddie signed on quickly after the FUXL account closed. 

Very suspicious...


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> "FUXL" signed off at 8:44 after posting the message below.
> 
> Freddie signed on immediately after he closed the FUXL account to check his handiwork.
> 
> What a stinking embarrassment, after all of his talk of civility.


It is just sad that it continues when he has been exposed for weeks now.


----------



## FeXL

Not only that, it also makes him a liar.

He denied it was himself when I first pressed the issue.



Macfury said:


> What a stinking embarrassment, after all of his talk of civility.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> "FUXL" signed off at 8:44 after posting the message below.
> 
> 
> 
> Freddie signed on immediately after he closed the FUXL account to check his handiwork.
> 
> 
> 
> What a stinking embarrassment, after all of his talk of civility.



What the hell are you talking about, Macfury? Are you suggesting that I'm moonlighting as FUXL? I think i's a cool name but that's about as far as it goes. And shame on you and your friends for buying into this bull****e theory. Better loosen those tinfoil hats a little. You'd make a lousy investigator.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> It is just sad that it continues when he has been exposed for weeks now.



Exposed for what? I believe I've just lost all respect for you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Not only that, it also makes him a liar.
> 
> 
> 
> He denied it was himself when I first pressed the issue.



I don't know how best to explain this to you other than to say you are mistaken, just as you were previously, and you've damaged any credibility you might have otherwise had. Now I will trust nothing you say. Nice going.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

The first sign of weak logic: post hoc, ergo propter hoc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> The first sign of weak logic: post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsI36TzIikY[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsI36TzIikY[/ame]



Exactement! Good clip, Dr. G.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> .




Something stuck in your throat?


----------



## FeXL

Yes, look what _I've_ done!

Well, we're even then!

You think I give a fat rodent's arse what you think of me? You have proven yourself over & over again to fabricate BS, to be unreliable with massive mood swings & to be entirely unable to defend a position. Like I care...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Now I will trust nothing you say. Nice going.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Something stuck in your throat?


Yes it is. FUXL signed off at 8:44. You signed on at 8:51 or earlier. I strongly suspect you were responsible, but I can't say so with 100% certainty.

It doesn't look good on you and I think this is about the point where we should stop communicating. 

I will continue to comment on your posts--you don't deserve a free ride--but I will treat them as third-person material from here on in.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Exposed for what? I believe I've just lost all respect for you.


That is of no concern to me in any way at all. You have to live with what you post.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Yes, look what _I've_ done!
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we're even then!
> 
> 
> 
> You think I give a fat rodent's arse what you think of me? You have proven yourself over & over again to fabricate BS, to be unreliable with massive mood swings & to be entirely unable to defend a position. Like I care...



And you've just proven yourself to be an idiot. I am not FUXL, but I like the way he or she gets under your skin.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Yes it is. FUXL signed off at 8:44. You signed on at 8:51 or earlier. I strongly suspect you were responsible, but I can't say so with 100% certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look good on you and I think this is about the point where we should stop communicating.
> 
> 
> 
> I will continue to comment on your posts--you don't deserve a free ride--but I will treat them as third-person material from here on in.



Macfury, you are an idiot. You should have stuck with your less than 100% certainty. You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself. The only communication I deserve from you is an apology.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> That is of no concern to me in any way at all. You have to live with what you post.



As do you. I am not FUXL, and shame on you for making that assumption.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Macfury, you are an idiot. You should have stuck with your less than 100% certainty. You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself. The only communication I deserve from you is an apology.


I still think it was you Freddie. No apology.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I still think it was you Freddie. No apology.



And you think wrong. Nice work, asshole.


----------



## Macfury

Sure.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> And you think wrong. Nice work, asshole.


Ah yes, the civility abounds in Freddie's heart. Always promoting moderation and respect, but continuing to use his favourite word.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Ah yes, the civility abounds in Freddie's heart. Always promoting moderation and respect, but continuing to use his favourite word.



Listen, asswipe, if you're going to accuse me of things I did not do, I don't see any reason I need to be civil to you. You are unbelievable. Unless you're going to apologize, you have nothing to say to me. If you don't even know you are wrong, then your judgement is seriously in question.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

And so what else is new in Canadian politics, beyond baseless accusations? I hear the Conservative party is looking for a new leader. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> And you think wrong. Nice work, asshole.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Listen, asswipe, if you're going to accuse me of things I did not do, I don't see any reason I need to be civil to you. You are unbelievable. Unless you're going to apologize, you have nothing to say to me. If you don't even know you are wrong, then your judgement is seriously in question.


You need to work on that, if you really want to see things around here become a bit more civil/respectful. 

Best place to start is at home. You cannot control the behaviour of others, but your own you own.

FWIW I suspect FUXL is MacDoc reincarnate.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> You need to work on that, if you really want to see things a bit more civil/respectful.
> 
> Best place to start is at home. You cannot control the behaviour of others, but your own you own.
> 
> FWIW I suspect FUXL is MacDoc reincarnate.



I agree with you. But when you're told by idiots that they think are someone you are not and that you posted things you did not, it's pretty much impossible to continue having any sort of conversation. Macfury, SINC, and FeXL all believe they are correct even when they are 100% wrong. How do you suggest I should respond to that? 

For what it's worth, I don't really care who FUXL is. I find the idea entertaining but I don't really pay it too much attention. For someone to believe it's me is absolutely mind-boggling. Talk about alternative facts.


----------



## Macfury

Actually, you are right. The way the accounts quickly shifted from FUXL to yours is extremely suspicious, but I went one step too far in saying it was you. I shouldn't have accused you directly on circumstantial evidence, so I apologize. I have changed the original post to reflect that.



Freddie_Biff said:


> The only communication I deserve from you is an apology.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Actually, you are right. The way the accounts quickly shifted from FUXL to yours is extremely suspicious, but I went one step too far in saying it was you. I shouldn't have accused you directly on circumstantial evidence, so I apologize. I have changed the original post to reflect that.



You have to be careful what you accuse someone no matter how "certain" you are. I don't think I ever log out of this site, and I certainly take people I think I know well at their word when they say something. I imagine if someone wanted they could log in as two different people on two different devices at the same time anyway. It takes a big man to admit he's made a mistake, so I accept your apology. Have a nice evening.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

It seems some of Jason Kenney's past comments from back when he was an MP are coming back to haunt him. 

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...in-their-indignation-over-jason-kenney-quotes


----------



## eMacMan

Coupla thoughts. Hilliary hitched her wagon to the Queer star and we see where that got her. 

Mainly the article left me with images of oxymoronic politicians. Ain't it da truff.


----------



## Macfury

This sort of stuff captivates prog voters who would never support Kenney and bores others. Kenney could produce his own husband and they would still say he was a homophobe.



eMacMan said:


> Coupla thoughts. Hilliary hitched her wagon to the Queer star and we see where that got her.
> 
> Mainly the article left me with images of oxymoronic politicians. Ain't it da truff.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Coupla thoughts. Hilliary hitched her wagon to the Queer star and we see where that got her.
> 
> Mainly the article left me with images of oxymoronic politicians. Ain't it da truff.




The "queer star"?


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> No, he's not. But I've given up wasting my time *asking for civility*... leopards cannot change their spots.
> 
> 
> :-(


It greatly depends on the crowd/company that you are with, as I said before in another thread. One person's "civil" comment can be offensive to other's depending on who they are and where they are and even then at times it simply doesn't matter, some people will take offense.

I think standup comics get this point. So say what you have to say and let the chips fall where they may or simply say nothing at all.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I think standup comics get this point. So say what you have to say and let the chips fall where they may or simply say nothing at all.


Taking offense has become a national pastime. Often it's just a control mechanism.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> As do you. *I am not FUXL*, and shame on you for making that assumption.


Well truth be told I don't know what to believe because I don't have access to the "backend" of the site to know for sure...

But I think you are probably FuXL because of the fact that FuXL came into existence just after you were having one of your regular spats with FeXL. FuXL was just another way for your to give him the "shaft".

Who else here or a new member would come up with that moniker and then go on to say the things that they did under the name of FuXL? I can't think of anyone else. 

When FuXL first appeared on the scene and others here were saying that they thought it was you, you did not deny it. You only just denied it now and in an odd twist of irony I think you just provided more evidence that everyone else was correct in their assumptions. 

But then again maybe it was FeXL who created FuXL to try and discredit you, unless someone can present definitive proof of who FuXl really is it will remain a "mystery".

It is human nature to have suspicions based on the knowledge that they have already.

If you are indeed FuXl despite your refutations I urge you to just fess up and move on, I have personal experience with that. There is no shame (well maybe a little but soon enough if you don't do it again people will forgive or forget for the most part), chite happens all the time, but redemption and forgiveness can only occur when first there is an admission.

Peace.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Taking offense has become a national pastime. *Often it's just a control mechanism.*


Yes it can be, on all sides of the personal and political spectrum.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Well truth be told I don't know what to believe because I don't have access to the "backend" of the site to know for sure...
> 
> 
> 
> But I think you are probably FuXL because of the fact that FuXL came into existence just after you were having one of your regular spats with FeXL. FuXL was just another way for your to give him the "shaft".
> 
> 
> 
> Who else here or a new member would come up with that moniker and then go on to say the things that they did under the name of FuXL? I can't think of anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> When FuXL first appeared on the scene and others here were saying that they thought it was you, you did not deny it. You only just denied it now and in an odd twist of irony I think you just provided more evidence that everyone else was correct in their assumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> But then again maybe it was FeXL who created FuXL to try and discredit you, unless someone can present definitive proof of who FuXl really is it will remain a "mystery".
> 
> 
> 
> It is human nature to have suspicions based on the knowledge that they have already.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are indeed FuXl despite your refutations I urge you to just fess up and move on, I have personal experience with that. There is no shame (well maybe a little but soon enough if you don't do it again people will forgive or forget for the most part), chite happens all the time, but redemption and forgiveness can only occur when first there is an admission.
> 
> 
> 
> Peace.



Peace? I think not. Post hoc; ergo proper hoc. Clearly you do jut know me at all.


----------



## SINC

An interesting overview, screature. Plausible enough I think, to leave me with an impression that will never change on the identity of FuXL. One thing of which I am sure, knowing FeXL personally for over a decade now, it is not something he would ever do. He is his own man and stands on his own two feet. He would never stoop to that level.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> It greatly depends on the crowd/company that you are with, as I said before in another thread. One person's "civil" comment can be offensive to other's depending on who they are and where they are and even then at times it simply doesn't matter, some people will take offense.


Yes... but I'm not talking about contextual misunderstandings. I'm referring to direct insults, name-calling and the like. That's personal, not conceptual.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Peace? I think not. Post hoc; ergo proper hoc. Clearly you do jut know me at all.





SINC said:


> An interesting overview, screature. Plausible enough I think, to leave me with an impression that will never change on the identity of FuXL. One thing of which I am sure, knowing FeXL personally for over a decade now, it is not something he would ever do. He is his own man and stands on his own two feet. He would never stoop to that level.


Fair enough and I meant peace FB even if you were FuXl.

Don, I take your character recommendations seriously.

FB, I do not know you at all as none of us here really do know each other, all we get is an "impression" of what the other person may be like, that is the plain simple truth. We can only judge each other based on what they had to say here.

So I will take you at your word. Frank you are not FuXL as you stated, I apologize for my doubt and suspicion. But as Sinc just said and for other reasons that I outlined, you could be a reasonable candidate to stand in a lineup as to who is FuXL. I think that is understandable to others here due to the nature of your rabid dispute with FeXL and the timing of when FuXL came on the scene and the remarkably similar moniker with a derogatory overtone relative to FeXL.

I guess we will never know who FuXL was or is so can I now say:

Peace?


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> Don, I take your character recommendations seriously.


Steve, I have always been a pretty good judge of character, online or not, so thanks for that.

As an example, many years back you were interested in buying an iPod Touch I had for sale after I had purchased my first iPhone. 

I thought that you were an honest guy and sent it to you in the mail without any exchange of money so you could try it out. That is called trust.

You tried it out and sent me the money to pay for it, plus you included the postage I spent to get it to you. That is called honesty.

I have never forgotten that and it lingers in my mind when I read some of the stuff you post. It always influences my thinking on your post's contents.

I have found through my life that there is good is most all people, and I include many here in that assessment including Frank.

That is part of the reason I participate here, realizing that some here may not see a side of me that others do in person. But one does not have to necessarily meet in person to make a judgement call on a member's character.

The advantage of meeting in person is, one gains the ability to confirm their thoughts about others. Such was the case of many I have met here including FeXL, Beej, Talonracer and others whose names escape me right now, who proved to be exactly what they are. Good guys.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Yes... but I'm not talking about contextual misunderstandings. I'm referring to direct insults, name-calling and the like. That's personal, not conceptual.





CubaMark said:


> Indeed... but mine paled in comparison to the instigator, who is consistently foul-mouthed and attacks the person, rather than debate the topic. I didn't start the conflict, I reacted to it - and regret doing so.


Yes that is difficult to take, but back in "good old days of ehMac" I took plenty of direct slings, arrows and insults from others (maybe even some from you and some from me before we made amends). Yet still I am here, as are you. Perhaps a little scar worn, but in the greater picture of things they are really very small scars. Online scars are very easy to get over at least for adults. If some adults want to be childish and make more out of the wound than is really required that is their decision.

I got "attacked" many times by some trolls here who are long gone now. Did it bother me at the time? Sure. But, I was bullied growing up because I was a fat kid at that time so I was open game for every and anyone to insult and physically assault me and other kids would just laugh.

So what goes on here is pretty fluffy stuff compared to a group of 3 bullies when you are 6 years old while walking home decide to beat you up, pushing you onto the ground and one of the bullies removes his belt to whip you with just because they didn't like the way you looked.

It is helpful to keep things in relative perspective.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Fair enough and I meant peace FB even if you were FuXl.
> 
> 
> 
> Don, I take your character recommendations seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> FB, I do not know you at all as none of us here really do know each other, all we get is an "impression" of what the other person may be like, that is the plain simple truth. We can only judge each other based on what they had to say here.
> 
> 
> 
> So I will take you at your word. Frank you are not FuXL as you stated, I apologize for my doubt and suspicion. But as Sinc just said and for other reasons that I outlined, you could be a reasonable candidate to stand in a lineup as to who is FuXL. I think that is understandable to others here due to the nature of your rabid dispute with FeXL and the timing of when FuXL came on the scene and the remarkably similar moniker with a derogatory overtone relative to FeXL.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we will never know who FuXL was or is so can I now say:
> 
> 
> 
> Peace?



Peace.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Yes that is difficult to take, but back in "good old days of ehMac" I took plenty of direct slings, arrows and insults from others (maybe even some from you and some from me before we made amends). Yet still I am here, as are you. Perhaps a little scar worn, but in the greater picture of things they are really very small scars. Online scars are very easy to get over at least for adults. If some adults want to be childish and make more out of the wound than is really required that is their decision.
> 
> 
> 
> I got "attacked" many times by some trolls here who are long gone now. Did it bother me at the time? Sure. But, I was bullied growing up because I was a fat kid at that time so I was open game for every and anyone to insult and physically assault me and other kids would just laugh.
> 
> 
> 
> So what goes on here is pretty fluffy stuff compared to a group of 3 bullies when you are 6 years old while walking home decide to beat you up, pushing you onto the ground and one of the bullies removes his belt to whip you with just because they didn't like the way you looked.
> 
> 
> 
> It is helpful to keep things in relative perspective.




Sorry to hear about that, Steve. That must have been really difficult to come to terms with.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee, Souiee!!

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ook-place-in-public-paid-for-hotel-rooms.html


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Sorry to hear about that, Steve. That must have been really difficult to come to terms with.


Yes it took me many years even after I had become fit (at around 16) to shed the fat kid stigma.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Steve, I have always been a pretty good judge of character, online or not, so thanks for that.
> 
> *As an example, many years back you were interested in buying an iPod Touch I had for sale after I had purchased my first iPhone.
> 
> I thought that you were an honest guy and sent it to you in the mail without any exchange of money so you could try it out. That is called trust.
> 
> You tried it out and sent me the money to pay for it, plus you included the postage I spent to get it to you. That is called honesty.
> 
> I have never forgotten that and it lingers in my mind when I read some of the stuff you post. It always influences my thinking on your post's contents.*
> 
> I have found through my life that there is good is most all people, and I include many here in that assessment including Frank.
> 
> That is part of the reason I participate here, realizing that some here may not see a side of me that others do in person. But one does not have to necessarily meet in person to make a judgement call on a member's character.
> 
> The advantage of meeting in person is, one gains the ability to confirm their thoughts about others. Such was the case of many I have met here including FeXL, Beej, Talonracer and others whose names escape me right now, who proved to be exactly what they are. Good guys.


Likewise Don.


----------



## CubaMark

*Good. *

*Lynn Beyak removed from Senate's Aboriginal peoples committee*


----------



## FUXL

CubaMark said:


> *Good. *
> 
> *Lynn Beyak removed from Senate's Aboriginal peoples committee*


A definite "Souiee, Souiee, Souiee!" to her.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> A definite "Souiee, Souiee, Souiee!" to her.



Welcome back, FUXL. I've been catching a fair bit of flack for your shenanigans, just in case you weren't aware.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Have you folks heard about the whole "GRABHER" license plate controversy? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee! Souiee!

Conservative senators defend Lynn Beyak, as media called 'parasites' - Politics - CBC News


----------



## FUXL

!


----------



## FeXL

Kewl! Your very own talking asshole. If this thing is capable of cranio-rectal inversion, I want one!

‘A fine collectible…Not intended for children under 14’: Talking Justin Trudeau doll now for sale



> Equipped with the ability to deliver canned phrases at the push of a button, the world now has its first talking Justin Trudeau doll.


Just like the real one!



> It is also fully posable “so you can display him however you like,” note its creators.


YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Souiee! Souiee! Souiee!
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative senators defend Lynn Beyak, as media called 'parasites' - Politics - CBC News



You know, as uncreative as your "Souiee!" responses are, they are still better than the vitriole that spews forth from the mouths of some of the regulars around here. There is so much pent-up anger with some of these folks that one wonders how they get through the day without trying desperately to make someone else feel bad. Pathetic really.


----------



## Macfury

You only think so because FUXL sounds exactly like you.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You know, as uncreative as your "Souiee!" responses are, they are still better than the vitriole that spews forth from the mouths of some of the regulars around here. There is so much pent-up anger with some of these folks that one wonders how they get through the day without trying desperately to make someone else feel bad. Pathetic really.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You only think so because FUXL sounds exactly like you.



Actually, his repetitiveness reminds me more of you, amigo. He is a troll.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Actually, his repetitiveness reminds me more of you, amigo. He is a troll.


And a minute ago you liked his posts. Go figure.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Justin Trudeau’s One Day Work Week



> Some of the potential changes include restricting the ways opposition parties can hold the government to account at committees, requiring the Prime Minister to be in Question Period only one day each week, and shutting down House sittings altogether on Fridays.
> 
> Of those, the change that is getting the most attention is the proposal to reduce the Prime Minister’s obligation to answer questions in the House of Commons to just one day per week.


Parliament currently sits less than 26 weeks/year & The Hairdo thinks that much opportunity to be questioned about his crappy policy is far too onerous...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Federal Liberals threaten to repeat Ontario Liberals’ corporate welfare



> Every politician wants to talk about infrastructure and be seen as a civic-minded future-builder. The insidious genius of the Ontario Liberals was to put that noble public urge at the service of private greed.
> 
> And now it seems the federal Liberals’ have the same thoughts.
> 
> The Trudeau Liberals are proposing to create an Infrastructure Bank that would use private equity financing for projects — financing expected to be four times more costly than public bonds.
> 
> When their Infrastructure Bank is fully invested at $150 billion, that high-priced financing could cost Canadians an extra $9 billion each year. It’s a massive corporate welfare scheme for big global investment funds at the expense of Canadians.


Saweeeeet!!!

XX)


----------



## FeXL

Wull, that don't follow the narrative now, does it?

Canadians prioritize border security over aid to those crossing illegally



> Asked whether their country should put more emphasis on assisting the new arrivals walking across the border in places like Emerson, Man., and Lacolle, Que., or on monitoring and patrolling the border to deter future crossings, nearly three-quarters of Canadians (72%) prefer a focus on border security.


Related:

OPINION: Trudeau’s Reckless Refugee Tweet Hurt Manitoba



> WINNIPEG, MB – On January 28, 2017, Justin Trudeau tweeted the following:
> 
> To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada
> 
> — Justin Trudeau (@JustinTrudeau) January 28, 2017
> 
> The tweet received an overwhelming response, with over 427,000 retweets and 779,000 likes. It helped establish Trudeau as the “nice” guy, in contrast to the “mean” Donald Trump.
> 
> There’s only one problem:
> 
> *Trudeau’s tweet was dishonest and manipulative.*


Emphasis from the link.

A lying politician? Especially a Liberal one? 

Shocka...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Wull, that don't follow the narrative now, does it?
> 
> Canadians prioritize border security over aid to those crossing illegally
> 
> 
> 
> Related:
> 
> OPINION: Trudeau’s Reckless Refugee Tweet Hurt Manitoba
> 
> 
> 
> Emphasis from the link.
> 
> A lying politician? Especially a Liberal one?
> 
> Shocka...


Lying politician, is a phrase English Profs tend to use as an illustration of the meaning of the word: redundant.


----------



## eMacMan

kick


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Justin Trudeau’s One Day Work Week
> 
> 
> 
> Parliament currently sits less than 26 weeks/year & The Hairdo thinks that much opportunity to be questioned about his crappy policy is far too onerous...


Yeah this is just ridiculous, Justin has too many photo ops to go to. Stephen Harper's record of QP attendance was better than Trudeau's during the years than they were both in Parliament.

It is understandable that as the Leader of the State will not be in the House as much as the Opposition Leader because, what else does he have to do at that time.

But for Trudeau to suggest that he should only be there for 25% of the time that QP happens because he want's to reduce the sitting days from 5 to 4 is the ultimate insult to Canadian tax payers. You see it would look much worse if Parliament sat for 5 days because if he was only there for 1 day then it would mean that he was only there for 20% of of the time , and that is only QP which lasts 45 minutes!.

So basically what he is suggesting is that based on a reduced House of Commons sitting time to about 32 hours, he should only be there *2.34%* of the time while the House is sitting.

Pathetic.


----------



## Beej

screature said:


> But for Trudeau to suggest that he should only be there for 25% of the time that QP happens because he want's to reduce the sitting days from 5 to 4 is the ultimate insult to Canadian tax payers.


This is an odd thing about Trudeau. On a lot of big decisions, I think he has done a good job. But he sounds like a caricature of a thoughtful person , and does not seem to have any respect for the value of the commons (elbowgate!) or responsible behaviour (family vacation troubles). 

I will largely vote based on decisions for an incumbent (versus likely ideas for a challenger), but there is a point where I would switch based on the incumbent seeming to assume that he can do whatever he wants on a variety of smaller issues. 

Keeping them "real" is more important than getting my every policy wish.


----------



## eMacMan

Given this is such a button topic, I'm surprised no one has posted on this.
Reevely: Trudeau Liberals are legalizing marijuana as if they’re being forced to | Ottawa Citizen



> ...
> Partial legalization will complicate enforcement: Some marijuana leaves will be legal. Some marijuana leaves will be illegal. Will we be able to tell where they came from by looking at them? How will police know? How much court time will be spent on these questions? And why does anybody care?
> 
> To mitigate the law-enforcement problems created by the new bill, the government is increasing police powers.
> 
> As it is, police are supposed to have grounds to pull a driver over, and then specific reason to suspect a driver has been drinking before demanding a breath sample. Under the Liberal bill, police will require grounds to pull a driver over, but once they have they’ll require no additional justification to take breath to look for alcohol or spit to look for marijuana. Except that mass RIDE checks are legal, so police will be able to demand breath samples from anybody they feel like demanding them of.
> 
> The government says it wants to “reduce litigation regarding whether or not the officer had a reasonable suspicion.” Demonstrating reasonable grounds is just such a pain, you see.
> 
> What does that have to do with marijuana? Nothing. But the Liberals are amending the law to deal with stoned driving so they’re sticking this in while they’re there.
> ...


I am a firm believer that legislation needs to be aimed at curbing police powers. The more the government expands police powers the more likely that power will be abused. This kind of legislation should never be snuck through as part of other legislation. It needs to face close examination based on its own merits or lack thereof.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Given this is such a button topic, I'm surprised no one has posted on this.
> Reevely: Trudeau Liberals are legalizing marijuana as if they’re being forced to | Ottawa Citizen
> 
> I am a firm believer that legislation needs to be aimed at curbing police powers. The more the government expands police powers the more likely that power will be abused. This kind of legislation should never be snuck through as part of other legislation. It needs to face close examination based on its own merits or lack thereof.


Good interview with the Colorado Governor.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/colorado...nlooper-warily-learns-live-pot-092311376.html


> When the people of Colorado voted in 2012 to legalize recreational marijuana, they instantly transformed their governor, John Hickenlooper, into America’s most reluctant pot pioneer.
> 
> Citing various risks, the rangy Democrat warned Coloradans not to “break out the Cheetos or Goldfish too quickly.”
> 
> “If it was up to me, I wouldn’t have done it,” Hickenlooper admitted. “I opposed it from the very beginning.”
> 
> But the governor didn’t have a choice — and now, after nearly five years of overseeing what has become a $1 billion industry, he considers himself “cautiously optimistic.”
> 
> “We were worried about everything,” Hickenlooper tells Yahoo News. “We were worried about kid usage going up, people coming into work high, the branding of the state. We haven’t seen anything negative in regard to any of those things.”
> 
> In early April, Hickenlooper spoke to us about the factors and forces that have softened his stance, how Colorado families are benefiting from legalization, and his own experiences with marijuana as both a son and a father.
> .............


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Good interview with the Colorado Governor.
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/colorado...nlooper-warily-learns-live-pot-092311376.html


The police now spend a lot of money making sure that no "illegal" pot is sold, cutting the government out of tax revenue. I just look at it as a moral issue. A stupid habit that police shouldn't waste their time on--except if you're driving.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

What's this? Criticism from from both the _Grunion_ *and* _Slate_?

How the mighty Hairdo's have fallen...

Stop swooning over Justin Trudeau. The man is a disaster for the planet

Now, I could care less about a single word that comes out of Weepy Bill's mouth but when even the left is beginning to criticize...

Related:

Justin Trudeau Is Not the Leader of the Free World



> A young, sensitive, feminist, environmentalist with a progressive stance on marijuana; a welcoming attitude toward foreigners; and a glorious head of natural hair, he seems in every way the opposite of the U.S. president.


No argument...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Maclean's (I know!) asks a salient question.

Scowly Liberals legalize the demon weed



> If marijuana is so dangerous, as the Liberals keep saying over and over again, why is the government seeking to make its recreational use by adults easier?


More:



> And now, an edited but faithful reproduction of the background documents the Liberals released with their marijuana bill on Thursday:
> 
> “…strictly… strictly… restrict… strict… significant penalties… strictly… zero tolerance… dangers… restrict… strictly… restrict… stop criminals… strictly… restrict… punish more severely… tougher… deaths and accidents… risk every day… dangers… punish more severely… oral fluid.”
> 
> This sets a certain tone.


Yes, it does.

Related:

Justin Trudeau is telling our young people that it's OK to do drugs



> By legalizing marijuana, the government is condoning its use. This is explicit when the government says it is legal for a young person, under the age of 18, to possess up to 5 grams of marijuana.


Related, too:

Krayden: Trying to see through the Liberal smoke screen



> I will dispense with the usual arguments about why marijuana should not be legal in Canada. I will even avoid pointing out that the legislation is rife with internal contradictions and pregnant with marketing and distribution problems.
> But it is certainly beyond reason to suggest that making it legal is going to prevent youth from accessing the drug and using it. If it is available to them now, when the drug is illegal, it is the height of absurdity to suggest that making it legal will somehow strangle the illicit trade. These Liberals know that, too, but Thursday’s announcement was all about messaging with barely a hint of reality.


Now, some of my own bias, in no order...

1) I'm still sitting on the fence regarding the legalization of pot by the Dope;
2) I know lifelong pot smokers, some lighter users, some heavier. I can honestly say that the heavier users are easily identified. They present like stereotypical potheads. There is just something...different about them. At least some will smoke first thing in the morning & be stoned for a good portion of the day, even at work. I have issues with that, especially with those who operate machinery. I know one guy who has been smoking heavily for at least 40 years. He rebuilds aircraft engines. It's somewhat unsettling;
3) There still isn't a dependable roadside THC test. I have issues with this, big time. Colorado's stoned drivers have doubled since the legalization of pot. Oh, sure, there are news reports of tests coming Real Soon Now but they ain't here yet.
4) I watched a 3(?) part series on medical marijuana last year. It seemed to be relatively well investigated with no particular bias. There appears to be some merit in pot's medicinal capabilities. It would be good to see those explored further but the US is covered in red tape when it comes to marijuana regulations, even for medicinal research.
5) I have issues with those gaming the system with medicinal marijuana certificates issued by "doctors" like those you see on Muscle Beach in California.
6) Legalizing pot will make it even more available to minors.


----------



## FeXL

Oooooo, bet that gives a certain Sherwood Park teacher a little woody...

Since Wynne became premier number of teachers on Sunshine List nearly tripled, costing taxpayers $765M



> “The unions keep screaming poverty and saying their teachers are underpaid,” said Christine Van Geyn, Ontario director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. “It’s hard to keep making that argument when you see so many people on the Sunshine List.


"But in Albertan that bastard Klein gave us a 40% cutback!!!"

'S'okay, Freddie. Red Rachel will make it all better with her carbon tax...


----------



## Macfury

I would legalize but not regulate. Save policing for people under 18.

I know that's hard for statists to accept, but the reason for legalizing should have nothing to do with tax revenue. It's not a safe product because it means inhaling a lot of smoke. It's the height of hypocrisy to diss tobacco but welcome pot with open arms.

The product should have a special "buyer beware" status and its use should no longer be prosecuted. because self-harm shouldn't be a crime.




FeXL said:


> Maclean's (I know!) asks a salient question.
> 
> Scowly Liberals legalize the demon weed
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it does.
> 
> Related:
> 
> Justin Trudeau is telling our young people that it's OK to do drugs
> 
> 
> 
> Related, too:
> 
> Krayden: Trying to see through the Liberal smoke screen
> 
> 
> 
> Now, some of my own bias, in no order...
> 
> 1) I'm still sitting on the fence regarding the legalization of pot by the Dope;
> 2) I know lifelong pot smokers, some lighter users, some heavier. I can honestly say that the heavier users are easily identified. They present like stereotypical potheads. There is just something...different about them. At least some will smoke first thing in the morning & be stoned for a good portion of the day, even at work. I have issues with that, especially with those who operate machinery. I know one guy who has been smoking heavily for at least 40 years. He rebuilds aircraft engines. It's somewhat unsettling;
> 3) There still isn't a dependable roadside THC test. I have issues with this, big time. Colorado's stoned drivers have doubled since the legalization of pot. Oh, sure, there are news reports of tests coming Real Soon Now but they ain't here yet.
> 4) I watched a 3(?) part series on medical marijuana last year. It seemed to be relatively well investigated with no particular bias. There appears to be some merit in pot's medicinal capabilities. It would be good to see those explored further but the US is covered in red tape when it comes to marijuana regulations, even for medicinal research.
> 5) I have issues with those gaming the system with medicinal marijuana certificates issued by "doctors" like those you see on Muscle Beach in California.
> 6) Legalizing pot will make it even more available to minors.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It's not a safe product because it means inhaling a lot of smoke. It's the height of hypocrisy to diss tobacco but welcome pot with open arms.


I agree with this.

Related to my OP:

Trudeau’s pot law makes it open season on all drivers



> For hidden in the folds of the new Cannabis Act, tabled in the Commons last week to begin the process of legalizing the recreational use of marijuana, the Liberals bragged that the legislation would also include the toughest laws against impaired driving in the world.
> 
> In doing so, the new law, if adopted, would drop the requirement that police need reasonable suspicion that a driver has been drinking before demanding a breath sample.
> 
> This is unquestionably a violation of our constitutional right to be free from unwarranted searches and detainment.
> 
> A cop sticks head into your car, smells nothing, observes no glassy eyes, hears no slurred speech, and yet still demands you step out of your car to take a roadside breath test?


Yep. This outta be an interesting experiment. Me, with my ponytail & beard, on the Hawg...

Should also prove to be an interesting experiment crossing the border into Montana this summer, for the same reasons.

Thx, Juthdin...


----------



## Macfury

Don't try to smoke tobacco in your car either--it could be weed!



FeXL said:


> Yep. This outta be an interesting experiment. Me, with my ponytail & beard, on the Hawg...
> 
> Should also prove to be an interesting experiment crossing the border into Montana this summer, for the same reasons.
> 
> Thx, Juthdin...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Not exactly a friend of Canada, for all who thought Trump would have a good effect on us. 



> Trump attacks Canada's dairy supply management as unfair to U.S.
> 
> OTTAWA -- President Donald Trump singled Canada out by name Tuesday as he put dairy farmers north of the border on notice that they are in America's fair-trade sights.
> 
> Trump also signalled he wants to do more than simply tweak the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying he is looking for "very big changes" to the trilateral pact that includes Mexico, or else he will scrap it once and for all.
> Advertisement
> 
> 
> Trump levelled the threats -- some of his strongest-ever anti-Canadian rhetoric -- during an event at a Wisconsin factory where he unveiled his "Buy American-Hire American" executive order.
> 
> After what has been a relatively warm beginning in relations with Canada, which included what was seen by many as a positive trip to Washington by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Trump dropped the gloves on Canada's well-guarded dairy sector, one of the sacred cows of Canadian industry.
> 
> Other countries have taken runs at Canada's sacrosanct supply-management system in previous trade negotiations, and Trump appeared to be taking dead aim during his appearance Tuesday in the U.S. Midwest -- in a state he took from the Democrats with his "America First" anti-trade message.
> 
> "When it comes to wasteful destructive job killing regulations, we are going to use a tool you know very well -- it's called the sledgehammer," Trump said.
> 
> Standing up for dairy farmers in Wisconsin "demands fair trade with all of our trading partners," Trump said, "and that includes Canada."
> 
> In Canada, he continued, "some very unfair things have happened to our dairy farmers and others and we're going to start working on that."
> 
> Canada has decided to impose import taxes on ultra-filtered milk, a protein liquid concentrate used to make cheese. It had been duty-free but Canada changed course after milk producers there complained.
> 
> About 70 dairy producers in both Wisconsin and New York are affected. Trump promised to work with Wisconsin's congressional delegation to get a solution after the governors of Wisconsin and New York urged him to take action.
> 
> The work would start immediately, Trump said.
> 
> "What's happened to you is very, very unfair. It's another typical one-sided deal against the United States and it's not going to be happening for long," he said.
> 
> "We're going to get together and we're going to call Canada, and we're going to say, 'What happened?' And they might give us an answer, but we're going to get the solution and not just the answer, because we know what the solution is."
> 
> Trump also criticized the U.S. trading regime, which calls for a waiting period, and consultations that can stretch to three months or beyond. He suggested it has stalled his attempt to renegotiate NAFTA.
> 
> "The whole thing is ridiculous. NAFTA has been very, very bad for our country. It's been very, very bad for our companies and our workers, and we're going to make some very big changes or we are going to get rid of NAFTA for once and for all."
> 
> Finance Minister Bill Morneau will tell this week's meeting of G20 finance ministers in Washington that Trump's executive order runs contrary to Canada's trading interests.
> 
> Senior finance officials who briefed reporters on the meetings suggest the order would run counter to protections Canada has secured through the NAFTA.
> 
> Morneau and U.S. counterpart Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin will be in Washington on Thursday for meetings that will include central bank governors and officials from the International Monetary Fund and World Bank.
> 
> Trump said his order would minimize exemptions that allow foreign companies to bid on projects in the U.S., something Canada currently enjoys under NAFTA.
> 
> Last month, a free-market think tank suggested using more open trade in the dairy sector as a bargaining chip in upcoming trade negotiations with the U.S. in exchange for more stable trade in softwood lumber.
> 
> The Montreal Economic Institute recommended limiting protectionism in both industries to help consumers, spur economic productivity, and ultimately create more successful businesses in both countries.
> 
> Both are shielded from open trade in the existing North American Free Trade Agreement, employ more than 200,000 people in Canada, and claim a similar economic value of $14-15 billion to Canada's GDP.
> 
> The current system limits the amount of dairy and poultry Canada can import before a tariff kicks in. Dismantling it would mean lower prices at the supermarket, and a more internationally competitive industry, says the paper.


http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busine...-supply-management-as-unfair-to-u-s-1.3373563


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Why cry over spilt milk? Trump is no friend of Canada.



> Trump attacks Canada's dairy supply management as unfair to U.S.
> 
> OTTAWA -- President Donald Trump singled Canada out by name Tuesday as he put dairy farmers north of the border on notice that they are in America's fair-trade sights.
> 
> Trump also signalled he wants to do more than simply tweak the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying he is looking for "very big changes" to the trilateral pact that includes Mexico, or else he will scrap it once and for all.
> 
> Trump levelled the threats -- some of his strongest-ever anti-Canadian rhetoric -- during an event at a Wisconsin factory where he unveiled his "Buy American-Hire American" executive order.
> 
> After what has been a relatively warm beginning in relations with Canada, which included what was seen by many as a positive trip to Washington by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Trump dropped the gloves on Canada's well-guarded dairy sector, one of the sacred cows of Canadian industry.
> 
> Other countries have taken runs at Canada's sacrosanct supply-management system in previous trade negotiations, and Trump appeared to be taking dead aim during his appearance Tuesday in the U.S. Midwest -- in a state he took from the Democrats with his "America First" anti-trade message.
> 
> "When it comes to wasteful destructive job killing regulations, we are going to use a tool you know very well -- it's called the sledgehammer," Trump said.
> 
> Standing up for dairy farmers in Wisconsin "demands fair trade with all of our trading partners," Trump said, "and that includes Canada."
> 
> In Canada, he continued, "some very unfair things have happened to our dairy farmers and others and we're going to start working on that."
> 
> Canada has decided to impose import taxes on ultra-filtered milk, a protein liquid concentrate used to make cheese. It had been duty-free but Canada changed course after milk producers there complained.
> 
> About 70 dairy producers in both Wisconsin and New York are affected. Trump promised to work with Wisconsin's congressional delegation to get a solution after the governors of Wisconsin and New York urged him to take action.
> 
> The work would start immediately, Trump said.
> 
> "What's happened to you is very, very unfair. It's another typical one-sided deal against the United States and it's not going to be happening for long," he said.
> 
> "We're going to get together and we're going to call Canada, and we're going to say, 'What happened?' And they might give us an answer, but we're going to get the solution and not just the answer, because we know what the solution is."
> 
> Trump also criticized the U.S. trading regime, which calls for a waiting period, and consultations that can stretch to three months or beyond. He suggested it has stalled his attempt to renegotiate NAFTA.
> 
> "The whole thing is ridiculous. NAFTA has been very, very bad for our country. It's been very, very bad for our companies and our workers, and we're going to make some very big changes or we are going to get rid of NAFTA for once and for all."
> 
> Finance Minister Bill Morneau will tell this week's meeting of G20 finance ministers in Washington that Trump's executive order runs contrary to Canada's trading interests.
> 
> Senior finance officials who briefed reporters on the meetings suggest the order would run counter to protections Canada has secured through the NAFTA.
> 
> Morneau and U.S. counterpart Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin will be in Washington on Thursday for meetings that will include central bank governors and officials from the International Monetary Fund and World Bank.
> 
> Trump said his order would minimize exemptions that allow foreign companies to bid on projects in the U.S., something Canada currently enjoys under NAFTA.
> 
> Last month, a free-market think tank suggested using more open trade in the dairy sector as a bargaining chip in upcoming trade negotiations with the U.S. in exchange for more stable trade in softwood lumber.
> 
> The Montreal Economic Institute recommended limiting protectionism in both industries to help consumers, spur economic productivity, and ultimately create more successful businesses in both countries.
> 
> Both are shielded from open trade in the existing North American Free Trade Agreement, employ more than 200,000 people in Canada, and claim a similar economic value of $14-15 billion to Canada's GDP.
> 
> The current system limits the amount of dairy and poultry Canada can import before a tariff kicks in. Dismantling it would mean lower prices at the supermarket, and a more internationally competitive industry, says the paper.


http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busine...-supply-management-as-unfair-to-u-s-1.3373563


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I hope Trump succeeds at dismantling Canada's supply management system. Supply management is essentially price fixing that creates high prices for consumers--and offers no benefits.


----------



## FeXL

Post it again, Freddie! The complete article once more, please...

BTW, who started the issue? I believe it was the Canucks with their import tax. Trump is merely responding.

Having difficulty identifying cause & effect once more I see...


----------



## Macfury

Apparently being a friend of Canada means making milk products less affordable to the poor people of this country.



FeXL said:


> Post it again, Freddie! The complete article once more, please...
> 
> BTW, who started the issue? I believe it was the Canucks...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Supply management is essentially price fixing that creates high prices for consumers--and offers no benefits.


Even living on the farm I never agreed with the price fixing.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Even living on the farm I never agreed with the price fixing.


Hell, if your farm was more efficient than others, supply management would punish you on market share.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hell, if your farm was more efficient than others, supply management would punish you on market share.


Exactly.

We also weren't unionized. Matter of fact, we never got paid in cash, period. Red Rachel would be in hysterics about that.

However, there was always a roof over our heads, three hots an' a cot and fuel in our gas tanks. Also had the advantages of a loving family, good friends and learning responsibility early on. A hard day's work carries it's own benefits.

Priceless...


----------



## CubaMark

_What do you think, Don?_

*Canada's 11th province? Author says Scotland fits the bill*

As Scotland prepares for another vote on independence from the U.K. amid the fog of Brexit, a Canadian author has proposed a radical solution – invite Scotland to join Canada as its official 11th province.


Ken McGoogan has argued, in print, that 4.7 million Canadians claim to have Scottish heritage and that country’s cultural influences are already deeply ingrained in Canada.










McGoogan explained that Scotland would have a greater say in Canada than it does in the U.K., because it would represent 12.6 per cent of the total Canadian population of 41.8 million as opposed to only 8 per cent of the 65 million Brits.

“All Canadian provinces have more power, more independence and autonomy than Scotland has right now,” McGoogan said. “We know how to accommodate difference and we could easily accommodate the Scots.”

As for any potential concerns some may have about the actual physical distance separating the two countries?

McGoogan said it’s not a concern in this day and age with new communication technologies and air travel. He cited the U.S. as an example of why location shouldn’t be an issue by comparing California’s distance from Hawaii (3,977 km) to Newfoundland’s distance to Scotland (3,355 kilometres).










(CTV)​


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> What do you think, Don?


An interesting possibility for sure, Mark, but I would not bet the farm on it happening.

Unless of course, we could give the United Kingdom Quebec in exchange for Scotland. Now that would be a great deal!


----------



## Macfury

Remember when Canada used to talk about the Bahamas becoming the next province?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Illegal crossings are increasing and feds still don't have a plan



> The number of illegal border crossings into Canada has drastically increased from January to March, official data released by the federal government on Wednesday reveals.
> 
> *Let’s hope this finally spurs some government action on this brewing crisis.*
> 
> In March there were 877 of what’s referred to as RCMP interceptions -- when someone is caught crossing illegally at a spot that isn’t an official port of entry.
> 
> That’s almost triple the 315 reported for January. And if the numbers have gone up that much from one cold month to another, you better believe they’ll keep going up as the temperature increases.
> 
> Let’s also not forget these are just the people the RCMP discover, those who officially claim asylum. The number who cross into Canada unnoticed and stay off the grid is unknown.


M'bold.

Ya know, with budgets balancing themselves & single day a week question periods, you'd think The Hairdo would have plenty of time to actually address this subject. Mebbe he's still too busy showing his tits & taking selfies with topless girls...


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Remember when Canada used to talk about the Bahamas becoming the next province?


Iceland was going to adopt our currency! That was peak Canada. Good times.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

Senator Daniel Lang subject of Senate probe over workplace harassment allegations - Politics - CBC News

Senate: Class of 2009 - Interactive - CBC.ca


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Illegal crossings are increasing and feds still don't have a plan
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Ya know, with budgets balancing themselves & single day a week question periods, you'd think The Hairdo would have plenty of time to actually address this subject. Mebbe he's still too busy showing his tits & taking selfies with topless girls...


Don't know the percentage but quite a few of these are driven to the border. The Coyotes alert the Mounties and coach the illegals to insist on being arrested and requesting asylum. Otherwise under current treaties they would simply be escorted back to the US side and arrested by US authorities.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> Don't know the percentage but quite a few of these are driven to the border. The Coyotes alert the Mounties and coach the illegals to insist on being arrested and requesting asylum. Otherwise under current treaties they would simply be escorted back to the US side and arrested by US authorities.


Thanks for the details. Upon claiming asylum, presumably some sort of hearing date is set but, in the interim, they do what? This sounds like a political mess. I'm not sure why we would accept asylum seekers from the U.S. unless their government reinstates the draft.

Country shopping is not allowed in a well functioning refugee program.


----------



## SINC

Beej said:


> Country shopping is not allowed in a well functioning refugee program.


Them's the breaks when you don't have a well functioning prime minister.


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> Them's the breaks when you don't have a well functioning prime minister.


Could you explain that with a selfie? 

Cheap shot. I'm not a Trudeau hater, but he doesn't seem to understand that sometimes feel good vapid statements have real consequences when you're prime minister.


----------



## SINC

Mostly brain asleep when speech engaged. Uh, er, um, somthing, uh, like, er, that.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


>


XX)


----------



## CubaMark

_For those who have had less than kind words for supply management, here are some American dairy farmers who think maybe Canada isn't to blame, and has the right idea..._

*'We don't blame you': Wisconsin farmers on Trump's blast at Canada's dairy industry* - CBC News

(no pull-quotes, wouldn't want to be accused of cherry-picking from the report)


----------



## Macfury

Access to Canadian markets would save some of them, but if they're not interested, some of them will simply have to go out of business. Supply management caps earnings and rewards the least efficient producers--what could go wrong with that?



CubaMark said:


> _For those who have had less than kind words for supply management, here are some American dairy farmers who think maybe Canada isn't to blame, and has the right idea..._
> 
> *'We don't blame you': Wisconsin farmers on Trump's blast at Canada's dairy industry* - CBC News
> 
> (no pull-quotes, wouldn't want to be accused of cherry-picking from the report)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 1971!*

Further on "supply management".

Supply management is unfair to Canadian consumers 



> Because of our highly regulated, government-enforced dairy market, put in place by Pierre Trudeau in 1971, Canadian families pay about 40% more for milk, cheese, yogurt, butter and other items from the dairy case than they would in a freer market.
> 
> And please, spare me the nationalistic hogspit that our closed-door policy is needed to protect Canada’s little-guy dairy producers from Big Milk. The truth is our antiquated, Trudeau-socialist, dairy policies are mostly just protecting a shrinking number of ever larger and larger Canadian producers, mostly in Quebec and Ontario.
> 
> When Daddy Trudeau brought in our closed-border rules (rules that come from the same mindset that gave Canada the National Energy Policy and the Foreign Investment Review Agency), there were over 100,000 dairy farmers in the country. Today, there are just over 11,000. And they produce more litres of milk per year than all the farmers did when there were 10 times as many.
> 
> Supply management today is really about protecting a small group of producers with a powerful lobbying machine so they don’t have to face competition from outside the country – from Europe, as well as the U.S.


----------



## FeXL

One of the few times I'll ever agree with a Dipper...

Justin Trudeau ‘Not Fit to Lead’ According to Pat Stogran



> Pat Stogran kicked off his election bid to head the Federal NDP by coming out all guns blazing after Justin Trudeau, and labeled him ‘Not Fit to Lead’. This is the first foray into politics for the retired colonel and a Veteran of the Afghanistan War, Stogran, and he is definitely not holding back. He opened his campaign speech by publicly attacking Trudeau, saying that the Prime Minister prefers to hide behind ‘smiling selfies and loquacious lies’.


Related:

Justin a 'disaster' as PM: O'Leary 



> “Justin has never run a business, never had to worry about an income statement or balance sheet. He is out there and he is a total disaster as a manager. Unfortunately when you have a disaster as a manager you have to make changes. That is what is going to happen in 2019.”


----------



## FeXL

Now, I'm all about changing my opinion when the facts change. However, when a politician exchanges one set of lies for another...

Six flip-flops by Premier Wynne 



> Six months ago, Premier Kathleen Wynne was against imposing a foreign homebuyers’ tax on real estate deals, saying it could have “unintended consequences.”
> 
> On Thursday, she reversed herself, saying a foreign homebuyers’ tax is necessary, apparently regardless of “unintended consequences.”
> 
> This raises the question of whether voters can trust any statement Wynne makes, or doesn’t make.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Wynne is deeply unpopular even in some parts of Toronto now--just more willow-in-the-wind policy.



FeXL said:


> Now, I'm all about changing my opinion when the facts change. However, when a politician exchanges one set of lies for another...
> 
> Six flip-flops by Premier Wynne


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Wynne is deeply unpopular even in some parts of Toronto now--just more willow-in-the-wind policy.


I've been following some of the polls (FWIW...).

Thing is, the Libs will just import some new idiot, all these erstwhile Wynne naysayers will suddenly wake up like someone shoved smelling salts under their noses, they'll vote for the fresh blood & the hole digging will start anew.

Rinse, repeat.

Good luck. 

At least here in Albertistan people will have had enough of Red Rachel and in 2 short years she'll be gone, gone, gone, she'll be gone so long... 

I should write a song!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau Wants Refugees And Asylum Seekers To Be Exempt From Immigration Laws



> Things have changed dramatically since PM Trudeau’s tweet welcoming refugees into Canada. Now, Trudeau’s government has taken this obsession one step further to make sure that no one interferes with their plans. To block officials from interfering with immigration rules and laws, PM Trudeau’s government is going through an ideological purge that will remove adjudicators from the refugee and immigration board.


More:



> It looks like PM Trudeau and his Liberals are trying to remove those adjudicators who are even-handed and fair-minded. The move seems quite foolish and is something that PM Trudeau would surely go for to manage the crowd of illegal immigrants trying to enter Canada. At this rate, there will be more refugees than Canadians. PM Trudeau’s approach hardly follows any rules. In fact, he has taken his rules and extended them to his and the Liberal’s political will.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Not a surprise to anybody who has been paying attention.

Trudeau living in fantasy land



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s commitment to the United Nations’ Paris climate treaty to reduce Canada’s industrial greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions to 30% below 2005 levels by 2030 is a fantasy, according to federal government statistics.
> 
> So is Trudeau’s pledge to reduce emissions by 17% below 2005 levels by 2020 as an interim step.


More:



> To achieve this, the federal government will have to shut down the equivalent of Canada’s entire oil and gas sector within 13 years (189 Mt annually in 2015), plus find another 16 Mt in reductions (205-189), or the equivalent of one-third of Canada’s waste disposal industry (48 Mt annually in 2015).
> 
> If you believe that’s going to happen, I have some ocean front property in Alberta to sell you.


I know! How about we just shut down the federal gov't? In perpetuity...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it' 2015!*

Lemmee guess. She's got a university degree...

THE COUNTRY'S IN THE VERY BEST OF HANDS

Two from the comments:



> I think Cath has been Puffin something herself.
> 
> Ah, but they "identify" as penguins, you bigots!


Yep.

Good enough for gov't work.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


>


That made me snicker a little bit.


----------



## CubaMark

*Kevin O'Leary drops out of Conservative leadership race, will endorse Maxime Bernier*










Kevin O'Leary is dropping out of the Conservative leadership race and will endorse Maxime Bernier, multiple sources tell CBC News.

The businessman and reality TV star is ending his campaign only hours before the last leadership debate in Toronto, and two days before party members can start casting their ballots.

O'Leary is confident he could win the Conservative race, but now believes he cannot defeat Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the next election.

He has cited his failure to gain traction in Quebec and his poor French-language skills as reasons for dropping out of the leadership race.
(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

Big fan if Bernier, so this is good news.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Big fan if Bernier, so this is good news.


*Uh-huh.*


Bernier resigns from Tory cabinet | CTV News
Bernier's back 3 years after document scandal - CBC News
He 'destroyed my life,' - Toronto Star


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

You're a fan of Bernie Sanders for Pete's sake. I like Bernier's policy ideas. Hope he becomes PM.



CubaMark said:


> *Uh-huh.*
> 
> 
> Bernier resigns from Tory cabinet | CTV News
> Bernier's back 3 years after document scandal - CBC News
> He 'destroyed my life,' - Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

The guy can draw but his conceptuals are really weak. There's tooo much emphasis on putting words in other people's mouths. Very lazy stuff.



CubaMark said:


>


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> *Kevin O'Leary drops out of Conservative leadership race, will endorse Maxime Bernier*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin O'Leary is dropping out of the Conservative leadership race and will endorse Maxime Bernier, multiple sources tell CBC News.
> 
> 
> 
> The businessman and reality TV star is ending his campaign only hours before the last leadership debate in Toronto, and two days before party members can start casting their ballots.
> 
> 
> 
> O'Leary is confident he could win the Conservative race, but now believes he cannot defeat Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the next election.
> 
> 
> 
> He has cited his failure to gain traction in Quebec and his poor French-language skills as reasons for dropping out of the leadership race.
> 
> (CBC)​



Uh huh. So it would appear that speaking French fluently IS an important quality of a Canadian leadership candidate after all.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh huh. So it would appear that speaking French fluently IS an important quality of a Canadian leadership candidate after all.


We shall see. Very interesting.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Well that Brad Wall fellow is sure the one to watch. 









http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-party-passes-bill-to-sell-off-crowns-1.4087682


----------



## Macfury

Why not? Seems fine to me.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Why not? Seems fine to me.


Yeah, all he is doing is following the precident of non consultation with the electorate pioneered by Knothead and the Alberta Dippers as in Bill 6 on farm labour and the carbon tax.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I think this will force The Hairdo to do something. Whether that reaction will be good is doubtful but hope springs eternal...

Kevin Libin: Trump’s new tax plan will make Canada’s life even more difficult than lumber and dairy scraps



> Meanwhile, the president’s battle to restore U.S. competitiveness is just warming up, right when Canada’s is looking weaker than it has in a long while. Business investment in this country is already anemic. As Jack Mintz noted last month, private investment in manufacturing and services, averaging less than eight per cent of GDP in recent years, is lower even than in economic basket-case Greece, significantly lower than in the U.S. and U.K., and less than half the level in Germany and France. The Liberal government no doubt has its own pet theories on the reasons for this, and its solutions are likely to include large doses of government meddling to spur investment and innovation. But Canada’s regulatory burden is now ranked by the World Bank as worse than two-thirds of our OECD peers. And yet more rules and regulations are being rolled out right now coast to coast, presumably to correct employee workplaces, investment advice, hot housing properties, power generation and, as always, the environment.


Oh, related & from the This Is Interesting department:

FAILURE: Trudeau Had Softwood Deal With Obama, Waited For “Better” Deal From Trump



> A former US trade representative has revealed that the Trudeau government had a softwood lumber deal with the Obama administration, but Trudeau decided to hold out for a better deal after Donald Trump became President.


What, Butts & The Hairdo thought they could out-negotiate Trump? HA!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

A Canadian perspective on Saudi Arabia "protecting women's rights".

UN Watch director dares “fellow feminist” Trudeau to condemn Saudi Arabia



> “Electing Saudi Arabia to protect women’s rights is like making an arsonist into the town fire chief,” said Canadian-born Hillel Neuer, executive director of UN Watch, in a statement. “It’s absurd — and morally reprehensible.”
> 
> Neuer also took a swipe at Prime Minister Trudeau, a self-proclaimed feminist who appointed Canada’s first gender-balanced cabinet “because it’s 2015”, but who is yet to openly criticize the repressive Wahhabi Kingdom for its systemic oppression of women.
> 
> “I urge my PM, fellow feminist @JustinTrudeau, to join me in condemning the absurd election of Saudi Arabia to UN women’s rights commission”, Neuer tweeted on April 24, 2017.


Don't hold yer breath, Ms. Neuer...


----------



## Dr.G.

Nova Scotia government introduces $10.5B balanced budget on eve of election - Nova Scotia - CBC News

Good to hear. It seems as if our Liberal provincial government is comprised of social progressives and fiscal conservatives.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ontario is following Nova Scotia's lead. The Ontario's Liberal government has tabled its first balanced budget in a decade and it's chock full of new spending, with the provincial economy firing on all cylinders and an election campaign one year away.

Ontario Liberals unveil 2017 budget - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Ontario firing on all cylinders? Good grief, where are you getting this stuff?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Ontario firing on all cylinders? Good grief, where are you getting this stuff?


Ontario Liberals unveil 2017 budget - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Ontario Liberals unveil 2017 budget - Toronto - CBC News



Alternative facts! Fake news! I want to know what's really going on—let's ask Ezra! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Alternative facts! Fake news! I want to know what's really going on—let's ask Ezra!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


XX)tptptptp


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> XX)tptptptp



The Rebel Media knows all! They'll report things everyone else tries to hide! They're the only ones you can trust! And maybe Breitbart.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> The Rebel Media knows all! They'll report things everyone else tries to hide! They're the only ones you can trust! And maybe Breitbart.


Vox populi "voice of the people".


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh huh. So it would appear that speaking French fluently IS an important quality of a Canadian leadership candidate after all.


Yeah I heard that earlier today, interesting to say the least but I think O'leary's word were genuine.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Vox populi "voice of the people".



Or voice of the populist.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Yeah I heard that earlier today, interesting to say the least but I think O'leary's word were genuine.



So much for all his early blustering then. What amazes me is that there are many who would have voted from based solely on his performances on TV, a la Trump. Sure didn't help our American friends any.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Ontario Liberals unveil 2017 budget - Toronto - CBC News


That explains it. They must mean CBC funding is firing on all cylinders.


----------



## FeXL

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Freddie, your sense of humour slays me...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sure didn't help our American friends any.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

'Course!

Liberals planning to rubber-stamp potentially dangerous asylum seekers



> The Trudeau government is planning to quietly introduce new measures to rubber-stamp the approval of many asylum seekers — including people from dangerous and war-torn countries who may pose a threat to Canada’s national security.
> 
> To deal with the unprecedented spike in landed asylum claims from aspiring refugees to Canada, Trudeau government officials are working on a plan to accelerate refugee applications by bypassing some of the important screening and vetting measures currently used by Canadian officials.


So much for that 24 karat vetting process, the envy of the modern world...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That explains it. They must mean CBC funding is firing on all cylinders.


Here are six ways the Ontario Budget will help (or hurt) your wallet | Financial Post

How about this?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

They make it sound like a feature & not the bug it is.

Canada Is Investing $2 Billion in a Climate Disaster Mitigation Fund



> The Liberal government's budget for 2017, tabled in Parliament on Wednesday, earmarks $2 billion in spending to create a Disaster Mitigation and Adaptation Fund. This fund would "support national, provincial and municipal infrastructure required to deal with the effects of a changing climate."


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Nova Scotia government introduces $10.5B balanced budget on eve of election - Nova Scotia - CBC News
> 
> Good to hear. It seems as if our Liberal provincial government is comprised of social progressives and fiscal conservatives.


You must have arrived in NS after the Liberals went through the province with their machete, cutting funding for at-risk Nova Scotians left and right, decimating the provincial Film & Television industry with an irrational elimination of the Film Tax Credit, etc. 

Nova Scotia is, economically and politically, an ongoing slow-motion disaster. The Liberals are playing old-timey politics with a half-a-billion in new spending promises, the Progressive Conservatives are led by a fella with all of the charisma and intelligence of a half-thawed flounder, and the NDP are still reeling from the disaster that was Darryl Dexter, who campaigned on the Left and governed as a Liberal.

At the rate things are going back home, I'll never be able to come back to the blueberry patch


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> You must have arrived in NS after the Liberals went through the province with their machete, cutting funding for at-risk Nova Scotians left and right, decimating the provincial Film & Television industry with an irrational elimination of the Film Tax Credit, etc.
> 
> Nova Scotia is, economically and politically, an ongoing slow-motion disaster. The Liberals are playing old-timey politics with a half-a-billion in new spending promises, the Progressive Conservatives are led by a fella with all of the charisma and intelligence of a half-thawed flounder, and the NDP are still reeling from the disaster that was Darryl Dexter, who campaigned on the Left and governed as a Liberal.
> 
> At the rate things are going back home, I'll never be able to come back to the blueberry patch


Sorry to hear this, Mark. I would love to have you somewhere in this fine province. I have not decided who to vote for in the upcoming provincial election. Paz, mi amigo.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> decimating the provincial Film & Television industry with an irrational elimination of the Film Tax Credit


I've seen one decent analysis of film tax credits, and it came out as a negative benefit. The usual game is to compare the tax cost to the GDP impact (apples to oranges; also credit all film activity to the tax credit because...everyone gets a bit). Unless Nova Scotia's was a unique design, it is rational to cut.


----------



## CubaMark

Beej said:


> I've seen one decent analysis of film tax credits, and it came out as a negative benefit. The usual game is to compare the tax cost to the GDP impact (apples to oranges; also credit all film activity to the tax credit because...everyone gets a bit). Unless Nova Scotia's was a unique design, it is rational to cut.


This surprises even me: The *NS PC party* has a balanced, in-depth look at the Film Tax Credit fiasco here.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> This surprises even me: The *NS PC party* has a balanced, in-depth look at the Film Tax Credit fiasco here.


Where numbers are used in that piece (in the first half) they fail in the way I described. Terrible analysis.

The corporate structure comments were valid, and something to keep in mind when you see criticism of tax breaks you do not like.

This was not a balanced critique, but thank you for the link.


----------



## Macfury

It's really a sewer and water project fund.



FeXL said:


> They make it sound like a feature & not the bug it is.
> 
> Canada Is Investing $2 Billion in a Climate Disaster Mitigation Fund


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Guess his tits just aren't cutting it any more. Time to shuck trou!

PM Trudeau’s approval rating tumbles



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s “sunny ways” are falling flat with a growing number of voters, according to a new poll.
> 
> A Forum Research poll released Thursday found Trudeau’s approval rating has fallen to 42% — a significant drop from last November when 58% of respondents gave the prime minister the thumbs up.


----------



## FeXL

I found this story at a few other links but posted this one simply because if the Red Star is beginning to notice..

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan pays price for rash battlefield boast



> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan is offering some clarification around his claim that he was the “architect” of the biggest Canadian military offensive against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
> 
> Sajjan came into the defence post in 2015 boasting impeccable credentials: time in the military and tours of duty in Afghanistan, all reinforced by a photo showing him in uniform, sporting sleek sunglasses, that earned him the moniker “badass.”
> 
> But now Sajjan seems to have overreached in a war story, telling an audience in New Delhi, India, earlier this week that he was the “architect” of Operation Medusa, the Canadian offensive in 2006 to push out Taliban fighters from the districts around Kandahar.


More:



> *One military officer told the Post it was a “bald-faced lie.”*


My emphasis.

Related:

Harjit Sajjan the soldier wouldn’t have claimed credit for being ‘architect’ of operation, top NATO officer says



> Defense minister Harjit Sajjan was not “the architect” of Canada’s biggest battle since the Korean War as he claimed in a speech in India last week, according to the chief of operations for NATO in southern Afghanistan during Operation Medusa in 2006.
> 
> Lt.-Col. Shane Schreiber (ret.) said, “Harj the soldier probably would not have said that. Harj the politician did, thinking that he could get away with it. When you are careless with words as a politician that can haunt you.”


Related, too:

‘I am truly sorry’: Harjit Sajjan apologizes for claiming he was ‘architect’ of Operation Medusa



> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says he is truly sorry after claiming in a recent speech to have been the architect of Canada’s largest battle in Afghanistan.
> 
> The mea culpa follows what some saw as a half-hearted apology for the comments Sajjan made in India earlier this month.


If he was truly sorry, the liar would quit. If he doesn't, The Hairdo should fire his ass. C'mon, Juthdin. Grow a pair & do something besides pose for selfies for a change...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau on why he’s unpopular in the west “Despite what Albertans want, we won!”



> Justin Trudeau was in Saskatchewan yesterday and received a tough question from a Regina student.
> 
> Trudeau was asked why the liberals are so unpopular in western Canada, he was quick to remind Albertans needs to realize we won!


Enjoy it, Juthdin. Ain't gonna last forever...


----------



## FeXL

Further on that magically balanced Ontario budget.

Liberals hiding their deficit 



> If you believe Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s claim that through her sound fiscal management she has balanced the province’s books and can now spend more on public services, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you.
> 
> Progressive Conservative leader Patrick Brown rightly called Wynne’s budget a “Hail Mary pass” Thursday, cooked up by a Liberal government desperately trying to clean up the financial mess it’s made of the province’s books for the past 14 years, in time for next year’s election.
> 
> Brown said despite Wynne’s claim of a balanced budget – the first since 2008 – the Liberals are actually hiding a $5 billion operating deficit.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!! Oink. Oink. Oink.

Senator Don Meredith Harassed, Sexually Abused Staff For Years, Say Former Aides


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

When you control the language & the narrative...

PROPAGANDA: Liberal Minister Wants “True Redefinition” Of Canada’s Media



> In a disturbing comment, Trudeau government Heritage Minister Melanie Joly says there must be a _“true redefinition”_ of Canada’s media.
> 
> The statement comes as the Trudeau government considers how they can “support” the establishment media – *which likely means restrictive new laws and more taxpayer money being sent to the millionaire owners of elitist media institutions.*
> 
> According to the Toronto Star, the government is reportedly considering plans to create a “fund” (potentially costing taxpayers $100 million) to support journalism, increased taxes on media subscriptions from outside Canada (including online), and taxation of digital ads from companies that _“don’t spend enough money on news reporting in Canada.”_
> 
> And who would decide what that means? _The government._


All emphasis from the link.


----------



## FeXL

Further on orchestrating the Napoleonic wars & other Liberal claims...

No questions allowed about Sajjan and his Op Medusa claims, says Gen. Vance



> At a news conference Friday to promote the military’s efforts to deal with sexual misconduct, Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Jon Vance was asked about Sajjan’s Medusa claims and his apology.
> 
> “I’m not really aware of this case, and, quite frankly, I’d like us to keep our eye on the ball about sexual misconduct,” Vance said to the female reporter.
> 
> *So the CDS, an Afghan veteran, is not aware of Sajjan’s Medusa problem? He must be the only one in NDHQ.*


M'bold.

Further:



> When the reporter asked if she could have a follow up question, he snapped, “no.”


Touchy, touchy...


----------



## Rps

So, after looking at your 6 posts this morning FeXL, just wondering what you are trying to say......😉😉😉😇


----------



## SINC

Too bad Canadians don't have the capacity to see the danger in our policy on immigration. The French get it in spades.

France's National Front leader calls Canada's refugee plan 'madness' - World - CBC News


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh huh. So it would appear that speaking French fluently IS an important quality of a Canadian leadership candidate after all.


Trust me I have met Maxime, he is not all that fluent in English. He is good looking though and was kicked out of Cabinet only once... so you never know.


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Too bad Canadians don't have the capacity to see the danger in our policy on immigration. The French get it in spades.
> 
> France's National Front leader calls Canada's refugee plan 'madness' - World - CBC News


No she does not represent the French. She has her own particular point view that is all, just like Kellie Leitch here in Canada.


----------



## SINC

screature said:


> No she does not represent the French. She has her own particular point view that is all, just like Kellie Leitch here in Canada.


Until they elect her.  Then she will speak for the French. Bet it happens!


----------



## screature

SINC said:


> Until they elect her.  Then she will speak for the French. Bet it happens!


It may, even then she only speaks for the French citizens that voted for her, not the French people as a whole.

Does Justin Trudeau speak for all Canadians including you?

I know sure as hell he doesn't represent/speak for me.


----------



## eMacMan

Sadly most politicians feel their job is to advance the views of their puppet masters. Certainly the concept that they represent Canadians seems ever increasingly naive. 

We can look at the FATCA IGA, or Bill C51, or Trudeaus failure to repeal the same. We should also look at the Trudeau bills designed to advance the powers of the police and further the establishment of a police state.

Bottom line they do not represent my views, they do not represent your views. It would be wonderful if they did. Like it or not the parliamentary system was designed for the elite. They have only to corrupt the Prime Minister and everyone else falls obediently in line. All done at a tiny fraction of the price of corrupting/controlling the American system.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> So, after looking at your 6 posts this morning FeXL, just wondering what you are trying to say......


Mornin', Rps!

Can't tell if you're being facetious or not. In case you aren't, here's a small precis:

I'm so tired of politicians (spectrum-wide) & their lies & hypocrisy & political correctness & complete absence of integrity & accountability that I want to hurl in technicolor every time I read about another one of the bastards.

Now that's out, flat out & from the top?

Justin Trudeau as a prime minister is a sad joke perpetrated upon everyone in this country, not just the political right.

Period.

Now, a few specifics.

People go on & on questioning Trump's qualifications as president yet nary once did I hear anything from the left about how a substitute drama teacher & snowboard instructor who dropped out of two graduate programs is qualified to run this country. He truly has little more than a head of hair and a surname going for him.

In case you've missed it over the course of the past 13 years on these boards I got no love for gov't of any sort. I am merely less offended by some than others (sometimes along partisan lines, others not). Having said that, I expect liars to lie & _le fils_ has not disappointed, especially with his broken promises regarding budgets & spending.

There have been a number of scandals among the Liberal party since elected & none of them having been handled properly. The most recent being the Sajjan spectacle. If he had been Conservative the hue & cry from the left for his head would have been heard far & wide. And rightly so, don't get me wrong. However, instead, we get crickets from the left & MotherCorpse notes that he "misspoke".

W. T. F.

This whole Middle East refugee thing is of huge concern to me & it should be to anyone paying attention. Unfortunately, both politicians & many of the people seem to ignore the lessons playing themselves out overseas. "It'll never happen here." "They're just not doing it right." "Our vetting process is the best on the planet!"

Or some such tripe. Some ignoramuses just need to put their hand on the hotplate...

I'm also sick (and tired!) of many on the left trying to control every aspect of my life, from the language I use every day to what kind of clothing I'm "allowed" to wear to other insidious invasions of my personal liberty.

I've already spent more time on this than what I intended but that's a _start_.


----------



## FeXL

Fire. His. Ass...

Ethics committee recommends expelling Senator Don Meredith over sex with teen



> The Senate ethics committee is recommending that disgraced Sen. Don Meredith be expelled for engaging in a sexual relationship with a teenage girl — the first such recommendation in the history of the upper chamber.


Frankly, seeing as politicians have been screwing the population over for years, I'm surprised they even came to this decision...


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Mornin', Rps!
> 
> *Can't tell if you're being facetious or not*. In case you aren't, here's a small precis:
> 
> *I'm so tired of politicians (spectrum-wide) & their lies & hypocrisy & political correctness & complete absence of integrity & accountability that I want to hurl in technicolor every time I read about another one of the bastards.
> *
> Now that's out, flat out & from the top?
> 
> *Justin Trudeau as a prime minister is a sad joke perpetrated upon everyone in this country, not just the political right.*
> 
> Period.
> 
> Now, a few specifics.
> 
> *People go on & on questioning Trump's qualifications as president yet nary once did I hear anything from the left about how a substitute drama teacher & snowboard instructor who dropped out of two graduate programs is qualified to run this country. He truly has little more than a head of hair and a surname going for him.*
> 
> In case you've missed it over the course of the past 13 years on these boards I got no love for gov't of any sort. I am merely less offended by some than others (sometimes along partisan lines, others not). Having said that, I expect liars to lie & _le fils_ has not disappointed, especially with his broken promises regarding budgets & spending.
> 
> There have been a number of scandals among the Liberal party since elected & none of them having been handled properly. *The most recent being the Sajjan spectacle. If he had been Conservative the hue & cry from the left for his head would have been heard far & wide. And rightly so, don't get me wrong. However, instead, we get crickets from the left & MotherCorpse notes that he "misspoke".*
> 
> W. T. F.
> 
> *This whole Middle East refugee thing is of huge concern to me & it should be to anyone paying attention. Unfortunately, both politicians & many of the people seem to ignore the lessons playing themselves out overseas. "It'll never happen here." "They're just not doing it right." "Our vetting process is the best on the planet!"*
> 
> Or some such tripe. Some ignoramuses just need to put their hand on the hotplate...
> 
> *I'm also sick (and tired!) of many on the left trying to control every aspect of my life, from the language I use every day to what kind of clothing I'm "allowed" to wear to other insidious invasions of my personal liberty.*
> 
> I've already spent more time on this than what I intended but that's a _start_.


Knowing Rps and the nature of his posts can almost I guarantee you he is in not being facetious, as always I could be wrong.

I think you have made that abundantly in previous posts. But just to add a little criticism to your post, that is mostly true of Cabinet MPs and/or those who seek to be in Cabinet. There are plenty of good, honest, hard working MPs out there who just want to make things better for their constituency. I know you don't believe me because you haven't lived it, I have.

By who? I guess our form of government and the election results, that is pretty much all I have to say about that.

That's pure BS. His qualifications were called into question throughout the campaign. I don't like the guy either but what you said is simply not true.

I agree with this statement whole heartedly.

It certainly isn't perfect but, but we have nowhere close to the intake of Europe so I think your fears are just that, fears.

Holy smokes, I don't know where you got that from!!! Just one year ago (give or take) we had ten years of a Conservative Government.


----------



## SINC

The lives some people live and lie about.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

It really makes no difference what they call a new party. No matter the official name, it will become known as the 'get rid of the Alberta NDP Party'. This is day two of the final two year term of Knotley and her Dippers.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> It really makes no difference what they call a new party. No matter the official name, it will become known as the 'get rid of the Alberta NDP Party'. This is day two of the final two year term of Knotley and her Dippers.


With oil prices tanking, you can see that even the worst case deficit projections under Notley are no longer anywhere near the fiction she was spinning a couple of months back. 

How's that diversification coming along, Notley? Any new music festivals?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Funny, I don't see the word NDP anywhere in that meme. Methinks you may have just missed the point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

No point missed. When someone mentions Brian Jean my thoughts quickly turn to Notley's upcoming election loss.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Point missed big time, and as usual, you are either unaware or you see only what you want to see. The biggest threat the WildRose and the Phantom PC's face is themselves. But go ahead and slag "Red Rachel" some more if it makes you feel better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Here is more evidence that the newly anointed Jason Kenney is going to need to show a heck of a lot more leadership ability than he has shown already if he really wants to "unite the right." Complaining is one thing, offering a solution is quite another. I really don't understand what some people here see in him. 



> Graham Thomson: Alberta's political Sasquatch spotted at legislature news conference
> 
> Published on: May 5, 2017 | Last Updated: May 5, 2017 8:17 PM MDT
> Just when I was ready to file a missing person’s report with the authorities.
> Or, staple “lost” posters to telephone polls.
> 
> Just when I expected to see his photograph appear on milk cartons all over the legislature, he suddenly appears in the flesh.
> 
> Progressive Conservative Leader Jason Kenney is back.
> 
> After six weeks without holding a news conference or scrum at the legislature, he held one Friday morning.
> 
> When journalists got word at 9 a.m. that Kenney was holding a snap news conference at 10 a.m., we immediately suspected something big.
> 
> As in unite-the-right big.
> 
> The last time Kenney held a news conference at the legislature was on Friday, March 24 when he announced that a joint 10-person discussion group from the PCs and Wildrose would spend four to six weeks to come up with a plan to unite the two into one conservative party.
> 
> A few days later, Kenney got himself in trouble at a Calgary Herald editorial board when he seemed to suggest that teachers should “out” gay students to their parents.
> And then he pretty much disappeared from sight as far as the mainstream media was concerned. He did give me a 10-minute interview on April 14. But that was by phone.
> 
> He became our own political Sasquatch, with sightings reported here and there. But no face-to-face contact with mainstream media.
> 
> And then came Friday morning, May 5, six weeks to the day he said to expect word on the unite-the-right movement. Reporters were all atwitter, literally and electronically.
> 
> However, Kenney turned up alone, not with Wildrose Leader Brian Jean.
> 
> It was soon obvious this was no news conference to announce an exciting breakthrough in merging the political parties.
> 
> This was a news conference to re-announce the repetitive complaints against the NDP government we’ve been hearing for months from opposition politicians who actually spend time at the legislature.
> 
> “I’m hear to mark the second anniversary of this disastrous tax-raising, job-killing NDP government,” said Kenney as he launched into something of a rant. “Two years ago today this accidental government was elected partly because of a vote split, partly because people thought they were casting a risk-free protest vote.”
> 
> Kenney is certainly free to criticize the government and indeed, as leader of the second opposition party in the legislature, criticism is expected.
> 
> But there was absolutely nothing new in this news conference as Kenney railed against “an NDP government that has presided over the longest and deepest recession in modern Alberta economic history that has left 200,000 Albertans looking for work, that has killed some 60,000 net full-time jobs that has Alberta having gone from the lowest unemployment in Canada to the highest unemployment outside of Atlantic Canada.”
> 
> His screed was a simplistic and disingenuous diatribe against the NDP as the agent of all of Alberta’s economic woes.
> We have heard it daily in the legislature. But at least the Opposition MLAs at times give a nod to the collapse in the price of oil being the big culprit that drove Alberta into a recession.
> 
> Hearing Kenney go over it again in his first news conference in six weeks didn’t make it any fresher or compelling.
> 
> There was nothing particularly fresh here.
> 
> Kenney, for example, downplayed the resignation of a half-dozen board members from the PC executive who don’t like the direction he’s taking the party.
> 
> And he’s in no hurry to get a seat in the legislature, being apparently happy to pop up once a month or so to throw stale buns at the government.
> 
> And there’s nothing new to report on the unite-the-right discussions.
> 
> “I’m optimistic we’ll come in close to our timeline here,” he said as his own self-proclaimed deadline came and went Friday.
> 
> And then he was gone, after promising to talk to journalists again “soon.”
> 
> I just hope the next time he holds a news conference he actually brings some news with him.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Twitter.com/graham_journal


http://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...quatch-spotted-at-legislature-news-conference


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Here is more evidence that the newly anointed Jason Kenney ...I really don't understand what some people here see in him.


As one of her few fans here, I expect you can't conceive that "not-Notley" is a great resume.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> As one of her few fans here, I expect you can't conceive that "not-Notley" is a great resume.



I have never considered a protest vote to be a good enough reason to vote for a candidate. Unless you are a hypocrite, that should be a sentiment you would agree with.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I have never considered a protest vote to be a good enough reason to vote for a candidate. Unless you are a hypocrite, that should be a sentiment you would agree with.


Having lived through previous NDP disasters in other provinces, I have it burned into my memory the destruction of the economy they caused, and them ultimately being turfed from power. Their fate in Alberta will be the same, to relieve ourselves of the burdens they have placed upon us. The ultimate joy will be removing the union biased and socialist laws they will force on non union Albertans and watch the unions squirm when they are repealed.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Having lived through previous NDP disasters in other provinces, I have it burned into my memory the destruction of the economy they caused, and them ultimately being turfed from power. Their fate in Alberta will be the same, to relieve ourselves of the burdens they have placed upon us. The ultimate joy will be removing the union biased and socialist laws they will force on non union Albertans and watch the unions squirm when they are repealed.



Again, Don, apart from "not being the NDP" what exactly do the other parties have to offer?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Again, Don, apart from "not being the NDP" what exactly do the other parties have to offer?


If all they offered was a return to 2014, that would be enough to elect them. I think you 're looking at it from the "progressive" perspective--"What can government offer me?" Others are asking the government to leave them alone.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> If all they offered was a return to 2014, that would be enough to elect them. I think you 're looking at it from the "progressive" perspective--"What can government offer me?" Others are asking the government to leave them alone.



Not at all. I am simply asking, what does the party on the right who thinks it should govern—either one, or any of the other contenders—actually have to offer, apart from some vague promises about what they are not going to do? Even the "conservative" factions are nowhere near agreement on any sort of vision. Unite the right? Not yet, not by a long shot. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Not at all. I am simply asking, what does the party on the right who thinks it should govern—either one, or any of the other contenders—actually have to offer, apart from some vague promises about what they are not going to do? Even the "conservative" factions are nowhere near agreement on any sort of vision. Unite the right? Not yet, not by a long shot. We shall see.


Once again, you're asking them what they "offer" voters. It's the wrong mindset.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Again, Don, apart from "not being the NDP" what exactly do the other parties have to offer?


Not a damn thing is necessary. That alone will get them elected.


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> Not a damn thing is necessary. That alone will get them elected.


It's sometimes difficult to understand, but voting against is a thing. Part of the human condition.

Warning: a very pointed rant.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjYLWadz5Yc[/ame]


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Not a damn thing is necessary. That alone will get them elected.



In other words, you don't know what they stand for. You might be forgiven for that, seeing as they don't seem to know either.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Once again, you're asking them what they "offer" voters. It's the wrong mindset.



Very well: what is the political platform? You know, the vision upon which voters decide if it matches their own values. You're evading the question and I suspect I know why.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Very well: what is the political platform? You know, the vision upon which voters decide if it matches their own values. You're evading the question and I suspect I know why.


Government can't offer me anything I want from it. The best thing they can do is spend less, offer less, return my own money to me, resist borrowing and stop telling me what to do. Both Wild Rose and the PCs support these concepts. Notley does not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Seven PC board members have resigned since Jason Kenney became the PC leader in Alberta. And how is that unite the right movement coming along? 



> 'You're not conservative enough': PC board member resigns over 'labels' from Kenney supporters
> 
> Lorna Wolodko says PC Leader Jason Kenney doesn't acknowledge divisions within party
> 
> Alta PC Leadership 20170318
> Jason Kenney won the PC leadership on March 18. (Jeff McIntosh/Canadian Press)
> A former regional director with the Progressive Conservative party says she resigned from the board because she was tired of the negativity and criticism being levelled at existing party members by some Jason Kenney supporters.
> 
> "People are so quick to label," said Lorna Wolodko, the former regional director for St. Albert. "You're not conservative enough. You're not a true conservative or you're too progressive.
> 
> "[The labels are] used as weapons and methods of bullying and intimidation."
> 
> Unite-the-right deal close, but not complete, PC Leader Kenney says
> 
> PC executive director who quit after Jason Kenney became leader joins Alberta Party
> 
> Wolodko tendered her resignation on Thursday. She is the seventh person to resign from the PC board of directors since Kenney became leader on March 18, after running on a platform to create a new united conservative party.
> 
> Lorna Wolodko
> Lorna Wolodko resigned Thursday after five years as a member of the Progressive Conservative board of directors. (Twitter)
> 
> Connor Turner, Kim Krushell, Stephanie Shostak, Bud James, Jordan Lien and former president Katherine O'Neill have also stepped down.
> 
> Shostak and former PCAA executive director Troy Wason, who resigned the day after Kenney became leader, have joined the Alberta Party.
> 
> Kenney dismissed the resignations as nothing out of the ordinary.
> 
> "After every leadership election there's always going to be some people who choose to leave," he said.
> 
> Kenney said he earned the mandate to move forward with talks aimed at unifying his party with the Wildrose when he won the leadership with 75 per cent of the vote. He said members will decide whether to unite or not.
> 
> 'He doesn't see it'
> 
> But Wolodko blames the people who joined to party to vote for Kenney for the negativity that pushed her to step down.
> 
> She said his campaign and supporters have helped create a divide that Kenney must address as leader.
> 
> Wolodko said her attempt to broach the divide in the party with Kenney went nowhere.
> 
> "I just wanted him to acknowledge that and have a discussion on what we could do to help mend that. His answer to me was he doesn't see it.
> 
> "I didn't feel there was a receptive response to my concerns. And it's not just my concern."
> 
> Wolodko wasn't surprised to hear that Kenney seemed unconcerned by the board resignations.
> 
> "He does seem to be quite dismissive of any concerns that come from someone who wasn't originally in his camp," she said.
> 
> "I don't know if he is downplaying it or what, but I would think as a leader ... I think he would be a little more interested in some of the reasoning and why it's happening."
> 
> Wolodko said other board members may leave if they feel unappreciated or believe their concerns are not being heard.
> 
> While Wolodko has left the board, she is still a member of the PC party. She is taking a wait-and-see attitude on any unification agreement that results from talks between the Wildrose and PC parties.


http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...-supporters-pc-board-member-resigns-1.4102618


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Very well: what is the political platform? You know, the vision upon which voters decide if it matches their own values. You're evading the question and I suspect I know why.


A major factor leading to the NDP win was that the PCs had really screwed up. IOW people voted not for the NDP but against the PC/Wildrose mess.

Given the Carbon Tax insanity and the massive spending/deficit increases, why would a largely center - right of center Alberta electorate not dump the NDP?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Government can't offer me anything I want from it. The best thing they can do is spend less, offer less, return my own money to me, resist borrowing and stop telling me what to do. Both Wild Rose and the PCs support these concepts. Notley does not.



So you believe a political party should not have a party platform?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> So you believe a political party should not have a party platform?


It doesn't matter much to me if they do or don't. A guiding philosophy appeals to me more.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> A major factor leading to the NDP win was that the PCs had really screwed up. IOW people voted not for the NDP but against the PC/Wildrose mess.
> 
> Given the Carbon Tax insanity and the massive spending/deficit increases, why would a largely center - right of center Alberta electorate not dump the NDP?



I don't know. Rachel Notley was a far better speaker than the people she was up against. It was Prentice's election to lose. What did he call the election a year too soon? What was that all about? What has the "PC/WildRose mess" done to appeal to voters now apart from not being the NDP? How are they any different than they used to be? I don't really see any improvement in either of those camps. I see a lot of divisiveness, but I don't see any solutions. The NDP may not be popular with all Albertans, but at least they have a plan and they're consistent. I will wait and see before I decide whether to bite for them again in 2019. But the other options quite frankly are not very impressive yet.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> The NDP may not be popular with all Albertans, but at least they have a plan and they're consistent.



Consistency and a plan are not a virtue if the plan is consistently perverse.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Consistency and a plan are not a virtue if the plan is consistently perverse.



Perhaps instead of cherry picking, you might address any of the many other questions from the same post you that you quoted. For example, why do you think Prentice called the election a year earlier than their own fixed election date law required? I thought you supported fixed election dates.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps instead of cherry picking, you might address any of the many other questions from the same post you that you quoted. For example, why do you think Prentice called the election a year earlier than their own fixed election date law required? I thought you supported fixed election dates.


I do support them. I thought it was the wrong idea to call an election early. However, even with that transgression, Prentice was a far better provincial leader than Notley.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I do support them. I thought it was the wrong idea to call an election early. However, even with that transgression, Prentice was a far better provincial leader than Notley.



Evidenced by?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Evidenced by?


The flurry of bad legislation by the NDP and the burden of the carbon tax on Albertans. Not to mention bribing us with our own money by offering us back grants to get free light bulbs.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> The flurry of bad legislation by the NDP and the burden of the carbon tax on Albertans. Not to mention bribing us with our own money by offering us back grants to get free light bulbs.



Again, the great leadership for the future that Mr. Prentice and the PC's were offering was evidenced by? You haven't mentioned a damned thing that makes them any better of a choice today that they were they got their asses handed to them. By a girl.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Again, the great leadership for the future that Mr. Prentice and the PC's were offering was evidenced by? You haven't mentioned a damned thing that makes them any better of a choice today that they were they got their asses handed to them. By a girl.


I'll answer your question yet again.

The right doesn't need to put forward any policies to get elected, other than to roll back the damage done by the NDP. Albertan in droves will elect them on that promise alone. What part of that is so hard for you to grasp?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I'll answer your question yet again.
> 
> 
> 
> The right doesn't need to put forward any policies to get elected, other than to roll back the damage done by the NDP. Albertan in droves will elect them on that promise alone. What part of that is so hard for you to grasp?



That doesn't answer the question at all, Don, and you know it. It's avoidance of answering the question. What specifically makes you want to vote PC? I thought you said they deserved to lose. How have they changed? What makes you want to vote WildRose? What attracts you to their party platform? 

Again, I'm not asking you who you think is going to win. Stats obviously favour the not-NDP. I'm asking you what you look for in a political party. Surely the question cannot be that difficult.


----------



## Macfury

The fact that you're asking these questions simply means you can't see the damage that the Alberta NDP is wreaking on the province. 

It would be like asking someone what colour fire extinguisher they prefer when their clothes are on fire, being puzzled when the person engulfed in flames is not very interested in your query and then rephrasing the question as: "What do you look for in fire extinguishers?" The questions you're asking apply when a government performs within the normal range of badness. The Alberta NDP is a significant outlier in that regard--one of the two or three worst performers of the past 50 years.

Either party will do, or one that ultimately unites. Personal preference will wait until closer to the election.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That doesn't answer the question at all, Don, and you know it. It's avoidance of answering the question. What specifically makes you want to vote PC? I thought you said they deserved to lose. How have they changed? What makes you want to vote WildRose? What attracts you to their party platform?
> 
> Again, I'm not asking you who you think is going to win. Stats obviously favour the not-NDP. I'm asking you what you look for in a political party. Surely the question cannot be that difficult.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That doesn't answer the question at all, Don, and you know it. It's avoidance of answering the question. What specifically makes you want to vote PC? I thought you said they deserved to lose. How have they changed? What makes you want to vote WildRose? What attracts you to their party platform?
> 
> Again, I'm not asking you who you think is going to win. Stats obviously favour the not-NDP. I'm asking you what you look for in a political party. Surely the question cannot be that difficult.


Well Frank, let me answer it for a third time. I don't give a rodent's patootie what policies the right advocate as long as they promise to roll back the NDP damages to Alberta. If that was only their single policy, I would vote for a combined right. I detest the NDP and all it stands for and will vote for anyone but them to get rid of that plague. I look for a party that promises the NDP changes and the carbon tax gone. Got it this time?


----------



## Rps

Sinc, as an outsider, I saw Notley as inheriting a bad situation. Many of the issues with Alberta appear to me to be either out of the government's control or the prior premier's poor handling of issues. I do think the NDP was a protest vote but under the circumstances I don't think Notley has been all that bad. I do think the Carbon Tax would be a hotbutton issue in a resource economy such as Alberta's. But you are what 18 months from another election? If the employment rate shoots up who knows she might survive another term. But again, a lot of this is out of her hands. Diversification is the key here.....


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> Diversification is the key here.....


Seems unlikely. For a country of 30+ million? I can see that case. For a province of 4-5 million, specialization probably yields more, even if it is volatile.

Quebec and Manitoba have diverse economies, and have been receiving equalization payments for decades. Smooth sailing, relative to Alberta's 80s and recent crash. More stable housing values as well.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> do think the NDP was a protest vote but under the circumstances I don't think Notley has been all that bad.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Her handling of things has been abysmal.



Rps said:


> If the employment rate shoots up who knows she might survive another term.


Why? People are keeping far less of heir income than they used to?



Rps said:


> Diversification is the key here.....


And yet her economic plan depends on one thing--a massive increase in oil prices to counterbalance an insane debt level. Does that make sense? People speak about diversification as though it's a government decision rather than a market-based process. Alberta's economy has diversified significantly on its own over 30 years. Oil, gas and mining were 36% of GDP in 1985 and now just 19%.


----------



## Rps

Beej said:


> Seems unlikely. For a country of 30+ million? I can see that case. For a province of 4-5 million, specialization probably yields more, even if it is volatile.
> 
> Quebec and Manitoba have diverse economies, and have been receiving equalization payments for decades. Smooth sailing, relative to Alberta's 80s and recent crash. More stable housing values as well.


Not sure I totally agree, could never figure out why Alberta doesn't have manufacturing. And as for Quebec....... I think you spell their funding "b-r-I-b-e-s.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Her handling of things has been abysmal. Fair enough, but timing of governance helps more so than policies in many instances.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? People are keeping far less of heir income than they used to? Who in this country isn't, it is not just Alberta.....you live in Ontario aren't we doing the same.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet her economic plan depends on one thing--a massive increase in oil prices to counterbalance an insane debt level. Does that make sense?[/quote
> 
> Looks like I screwed up the quote thing. In order, MacFury. Timing is everything in governance, sometimes more than policy. Living in Ontario, can't we say we are also keeping less .....and your final point, didn't Prentice base his government on oil prices as well...which were out of his control as well.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> really so did Prentice's....all of which is out of the government's control.


They all depend on oil revenues. Notley is hoping for oil to erase a $20-billion borrowing spree.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> Not sure I totally agree, could never figure out why Alberta doesn't have manufacturing.


NAICS 2012 - 31-33 - Manufacturing - Sector

324 Petroleum and coal product manufacturing
325 Chemical manufacturing

Not that manufacturing's 30 year employment share decline is something to purposefully pursue. Lots of money wasted under the assumption that manufacturing = good.


----------



## Macfury

And yet, manufacturing share of GDP is up a bit. Of course, it's all relative.

Besides, I wouldn't be trying to juice the manufacturing sector at this point, with the coming automation wave.



Beej said:


> NAICS 2012 - 31-33 - Manufacturing - Sector
> 
> 324 Petroleum and coal product manufacturing
> 325 Chemical manufacturing
> 
> Not that manufacturing's 30 year employment share decline is something to purposefully pursue. Lots of money wasted under the assumption that manufacturing = good.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> They all depend on oil revenues. Notley is hoping for oil to erase a $20-billion borrowing spree.


Well we can agree on that....never gonna happen.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Macfury said:
> 
> 
> 
> Living in Ontario, can't we say we are also keeping less ....
> 
> 
> 
> We can, but Ontario voters have been debased by years of this nonsense. I can't imagine that the Alberta lobsters have taken yet to the water being slowly brought to a boil.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> And yet, manufacturing share of GDP is up a bit. Of course, it's all relative.
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't be trying to juice the manufacturing sector at this point, with the coming automation wave.


Well I would as indirect supply adds much to the base and the economy. Manufacturing touches many economy points.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The fact that you're asking these questions simply means you can't see the damage that the Alberta NDP is wreaking on the province.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like asking someone what colour fire extinguisher they prefer when their clothes are on fire, being puzzled when the person engulfed in flames is not very interested in your query and then rephrasing the question as: "What do you look for in fire extinguishers?" The questions you're asking apply when a government performs within the normal range of badness. The Alberta NDP is a significant outlier in that regard--one of the two or three worst performers of the past 50 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Either party will do, or one that ultimately unites. Personal preference will wait until closer to the election.



The fact that you can't answer a simple question about either party's platform says a great deal more about how informed you are as a voter than it does about anything the Alberta NDP have done or haven't done. You seem to be opting for a protest vote, the very thing that you claim got the NDP elected in the first place. You honestly now feel protest votes are the best way to elect a new government?


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> And yet, manufacturing share of GDP is up a bit. Of course, it's all relative.
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't be trying to juice the manufacturing sector at this point, with the coming automation wave.


Manufacturing is the new agriculture.

Manufacturing, value added (% of GDP) | Data


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Well I would as indirect supply adds much to the base and the economy. Manufacturing touches many economy points.


It's in massive transition now. New manufacturing facilities will be heavily into robotics. You can have your factory close to your markets, but it won't employ more than a handful of people. 

This is the model of the future:

http://www.economist.com/news/busin...dass-high-tech-factory-brings-production-back


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Well Frank, let me answer it for a third time. I don't give a rodent's patootie what policies the right advocate as long as they promise to roll back the NDP damages to Alberta. If that was only their single policy, I would vote for a combined right. I detest the NDP and all it stands for and will vote for anyone but them to get rid of that plague. I look for a party that promises the NDP changes and the carbon tax gone. Got it this time?



Loud and clear. You're advocating a protest vote, the very practice you claim got the "accidental" NDP government elected. Your hypocrisy is showing, Don.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Loud and clear. You're advocating a protest vote, the very practice you claim got the "accidental" NDP government elected. Your hypocrisy is showing, Don.


You simply don't understand a demand for a return to normalcy after the abnormal practices of this government. You're too steeped in its juices to see what's evident to the people suffering under this regime.

A protest vote elects the unknown to punish the known. Return to norms is not a protest.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Sinc, as an outsider, I saw Notley as inheriting a bad situation. Many of the issues with Alberta appear to me to be either out of the government's control or the prior premier's poor handling of issues. I do think the NDP was a protest vote but under the circumstances I don't think Notley has been all that bad. I do think the Carbon Tax would be a hotbutton issue in a resource economy such as Alberta's. But you are what 18 months from another election? If the employment rate shoots up who knows she might survive another term. But again, a lot of this is out of her hands. Diversification is the key here.....



Finally a voice of reason. There would be a carbon tax whether the Alberta NDP institute one or not, so we might as well get used to the fact. If someone is going to complain about something, perhaps they should focus on transfer payments, especially in tough times. It doesn't seem fair for Quebec to able to offer free or heavily subsidized daycare on Alberta's dime, for example. And again, it's an issue that's out of Alberta's hands, but at least could be negotiated. Prices for oil and manufacturing costs for oilsands oil versus shale oil are simply the factors we don't have control over.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> You simply don't understand a demand for a return to normalcy after the abnormal practices of this government. You're too steeped in its juices to see what's evident to the people suffering under this regime.
> 
> A protest vote elects the unknown to punish the known. Return to norms is not a protest.


Frank I don't ever recall Alberta having a protest vote before....I mean a real protest vote. Here in Ontario we had one with the NDP, many believe they were the worst government we ever had and were gone at the next election. It might not be a stretch to say they never recovered, but we will see next year. MacFury is correct here, at least from the Ontario experience.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Finally a voice of reason. There would be a carbon tax whether the Alberta NDP institute one or not, so we might as well get used to the fact. If someone is going to complain about something, perhaps they should focus on transfer payments, especially in tough times. It doesn't seem fair for Quebec to able to offer free or heavily subsidized daycare on Alberta's dime, for example. And again, it's an issue that's out of Alberta's hands, but at least could be negotiated. Prices for oil and manufacturing costs for oilsands oil versus shale oil are simply the factors we don't have control over.


I doubt carbon taxes will survive the next change in federal government. If you want to roll over and expose your belly, you would simply "get used to them."

Government control over the price of oil is a straw man. Nobody expects Notley to make it magically rise. However, they don't expect a government plan based entirely on a magical rise in the price of oil to the levels expected in Notley's fevered imagination.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Frank I don't ever recall Alberta having a protest vote before....I mean a real protest vote. Here in Ontario we had one with the NDP, many believe they were the worst government we ever had and were gone at the next election. It might not be a stretch to say they never recovered, but we will see next year. MacFury is correct here, at least from the Ontario experience.



If Macfury could explain what "a return to normalcy" means I would be impresssed. In Alberta, normalcy also included a sizeable siphoning off of assets like the Heritage Trust Fund to make the books appear balanced, particularly during Klein's reign. It includes blowing up a hospital in Calgary for no good reason. It included pouring billions into PC-friendly companies. Talk about waste, the kind that comes with complacency after 44 years in power. 

The question is, did Prentice really think they'd win a year-too-early election, or did he see what was coming down the road economically and bail early?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I doubt carbon taxes will survive the next change in federal government. If you want to roll over and expose your belly, you would simply "get used to them."
> 
> Government control over the price of oil is a straw man. Nobody expects Notley to make it magically rise. However, they don't expect a government plan based entirely on a magical rise in the price of oil to the levels expected in Notley's fevered imagination.


Don't be too sure, remember income tax was a temporary measure.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> If Macfury could explain what "a return to normalcy" means I would be impresssed. In Alberta, normalcy also included a sizeable siphoning off of assets like the Heritage Trust Fund to make the books appear balanced, particularly during Klein's reign. It includes blowing up a hospital in Calgary for no good reason. It included pouring billions into PC-friendly companies. Talk about waste, the kind that comes with complacency after 44 years in power.
> 
> The question is, did Prentice really think they'd win a year-too-early election, or did he see what was coming down the road economically and bail early?


Don't know, I'll ask Dalton McGuinty.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> If Macfury could explain what "a return to normalcy" means I would be impresssed. In Alberta, normalcy also included a sizeable siphoning off of assets like the Heritage Trust Fund to make the books appear balanced, particularly during Klein's reign. It includes blowing up a hospital in Calgary for no good reason. It included pouring billions into PC-friendly companies. Talk about waste, the kind that comes with complacency after 44 years in power.


This 30-year ****list seems like utopia after two years of Notley.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> This 30-year ****list seems like utopia after two years of Notley.



Wait a minute. Don't you live in Toronto? How does this even affect you?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Wait a minute. Don't you live in Toronto? How does this even affect you?


Alberta is the last best hope of Canada as a bastion of free enterprise and personal freedom in general. I was considering moving there until I saw Notley elected and her crabbed worldview visited on the province.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, as an outsider, I saw Notley as inheriting a bad situation. Many of the issues with Alberta appear to me to be either out of the government's control or the prior premier's poor handling of issues. I do think the NDP was a protest vote but under the circumstances I don't think Notley has been all that bad. I do think the Carbon Tax would be a hotbutton issue in a resource economy such as Alberta's. But you are what 18 months from another election? If the employment rate shoots up who knows she might survive another term. But again, a lot of this is out of her hands. Diversification is the key here.....


Well, we will have to disagree on that. The stupid union driven legislation that is done and pending is perverse and totally un Albertan. Her carbon policies with hiring Ontario contractors and suppliers to bribe us with free lite bulbs and other crap that is supposed to save the world is resented by anybody I know. There is a deep hatred among the majority of the policies and the dip **** inexperienced ministers she has appointed with zero experience and most are past environmental protesters. 

Even her own staff are all from out of province and represent groups against the oil sands and pipelines and she has created an atmosphere that she will never survive.

You are just not close enough to know what she has done and see the damage she is doing, nor can you comprehend the outright hatred people spout aloud wherever they go.

She will never get re-elected here.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, you are correct I don't live there so I do not feel the cultural reaction. Two things.... didn't you live here under the NDP's reign? Rae's issue was no experienced members or cabinet..... which I think is what is happening there. Second, I have always liked the U.S. vetting approach on cabinet members. Yes so clunkers have gotten in but at least someone has asked the question what makes you qualified. I have often thought our ministers should be independent and not elected but appointed and vetted by joint committees.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> If Macfury could explain what "a return to normalcy" means I would be impresssed. In Alberta, normalcy also included a sizeable siphoning off of assets like the Heritage Trust Fund to make the books appear balanced, particularly during Klein's reign. It includes blowing up a hospital in Calgary for no good reason. It included pouring billions into PC-friendly companies. Talk about waste, the kind that comes with complacency after 44 years in power.
> 
> The question is, did Prentice really think they'd win a year-too-early election, or did he see what was coming down the road economically and bail early?


However after 4 years Rachel can't campaign on PC screw-ups. It will be her record that will attract or repel voters. 

FWIW my opinion is that creating a carbon tax, without giving voters a direct say was a monumental blunder and will probably cost her the next election.

Yes the light bulb nazi blitz was also a bonehead move. If you want to send me a twelve pack of made in Alberta light bulbs, fine. However, implying I am incapable of swapping them out or can't be trusted not to resell them is insulting. Perhaps appropriate if you are dealing with other politicians but extremely insulting to the rest of us.


----------



## screature

Well I for one am happy that Kenny won even though I don't live in Alberta.

As a Federal Minister of many portfolios he did a stand up job in all of them. You can disagree with his polices and beliefs, but he was always on top of his game. In QP he never spoke from TPs because he knew his subject matter inside out, no matter what portfolio.

Kenney is very smart and hard working and a force to be reckoned with, let there be no doubt.

In my estimation he will be the next Premier of AB.

Just to add, I think he will be a good one to stand up forcefully against the polices of PET Light.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, you are correct I don't live there so I do not feel the cultural reaction. Two things.... didn't you live here under the NDP's reign? Rae's issue was no experienced members or cabinet..... which I think is what is happening there. Second, I have always liked the U.S. vetting approach on cabinet members. Yes so clunkers have gotten in but at least someone has asked the question what makes you qualified. I have often thought our ministers should be independent and not elected but appointed and vetted by joint committees.


Yep, I lived under the NDP in Ontario and in Saskatchewan, both total disasters as governments. What really makes me angry is all the out of province 'activists' she has surrounded herself with who are taking great delight in ruining much of our social and structural lifestyle here.


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> What really makes me angry is all the out of province 'activists' she has surrounded herself with who are taking great delight in ruining much of our social and structural lifestyle here.


The high-profile choices were major mistakes. In the minimum, they could have picked up underemployed Saskatchewan NDPers, or poached active Manitobans. Going for the Ontario (and B.C.?) recruits puts people in place who may very well view Albertans as deplorable. 

That sentiment will leak out and not be appreciated. Already seems to have happened over the farm bill.


----------



## FeXL

At least there is a HTF. The only one of its kind in North America, save Alaska's Permanent Fund, and both implemented by the conservative right, not the Progs.

Let's see if Red Rachel can keep her grubby paws off it. You a bettin' man, Freddie? No way she leaves the HTF untouched in the next two years is my prediction.



Freddie_Biff said:


> In Alberta, normalcy also included a sizeable siphoning off of assets like the Heritage Trust Fund...


----------



## FeXL

What hypocrisy?

Don't recall anybody on these boards saying a protest vote was either good or bad, merely that Red Rachel had been elected that way. Prove otherwise.

If that is what it takes to get rid of her, so be it.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You're advocating a protest vote, the very practice you claim got the "accidental" NDP government elected. Your hypocrisy is showing, Don.


----------



## FeXL

Prentice probably would have implemented a carbon tax. Thing is, he's about as conservative as Red Rachel is and is one of the reasons he got the shoe.



Freddie_Biff said:


> There would be a carbon tax whether the Alberta NDP institute one or not, so we might as well get used to the fact.


Welcome to the 80's! Thanks for playing Missed Political Opportunities Of Your Youth...



Freddie_Biff said:


> If someone is going to complain about something, perhaps they should focus on transfer payments, especially in tough times.


----------



## FeXL

Really? This again? The old, "You can't comment on this thread 'cause you don't live here" schtick?

We've been through this before & it seems you feel perfectly comfortable posting in the American Political Thread...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Wait a minute. Don't you live in Toronto? How does this even affect you?


----------



## Rps

FeXL, not saying I support a carbon tax, which I don't, but is it fair to target the provincial governments on their implementation when they are really Federally driven..... I mean did Notley, and in our case Wynne have a choice? But I do agree with most here they are illogical and do not make economic sense in any way. Anytime you can't explain a policy to someone in grade eight you need to scrap it as it is either smoke and mirrors or a cash grab. Speaking of the Heritage Fund, didn't it almost get depleted under both Lougheed and Klein, so I guess it's open season for Notley.


----------



## eMacMan

Except that Rachel passed the Carbon Tax, before the selfie king introduced any legislation. I suspect without her actions, the federal law would never have been enacted.


----------



## FeXL

Rps, in my view (and I've noted it on these boards) it's not what you inherit, it's what you do with it. Nothing gets done by blaming the outgoing party. They may or may not be the cause but that's not the point: how are you going to turn it into something good for the people?

So, the biggest issue in Alberta now, as it was two years ago, is jobs. What has Red Rachel done to encourage economic growth in Alberta over the course of the last 24 months and increase employment?

1) She took 8 months to conduct a petroleum royalty review, all the while oil companies moved out of the province, many to Saskatchewan, because of a lack of confidence generated by her timeline. And what changes did she make? Zero that make any difference under current oil price conditions. Strike one.

2) She is busily engaged in raising minimum wage to $15/hr. Studies conducted elsewhere (which I have linked to on these boards) attempting the same practice have clearly indicated that this creates greater unemployment, not less. More unemployment, more people on the dole, more bodies on social programs, higher UI premiums & taxes, more people laid off, lather, rinse, repeat. Strike 2.

3) She is unionizing farm workers. There is zero evidence anywhere that unionizing anybody in the private sector creates more employment. In addition, farmers will not put up with the union mindset & the BS that unions can & do cause. They'll downsize & unemployment will go up. Not only has she hamstrung our petroleum industry, agriculture is right behind. Strike 3.

4) She implemented a carbon tax at a time when tens of thousands of people are out of work. Not only will this slow _any_ economic recovery it will cost Albertans billions of dollars. I have seen my vendor prices go up anywhere from 4.5% to 12% since Jan 1. Many of them specifically note on their invoices the increases in price are a direct response to the carbon tax. I have added increases to my own invoices to cover these added costs & also specifically note they are because of the carbon tax. I won't even get into the questionable "science" the whole fallacy is based upon. Strike 4.

5) She has hired 47,000 (!) new provincial employees. First off, WTF for? There's a shortage of public servants? Since when? Guess she's padding that voter base. She's gonna need them. Jeezuz... Second, public servants consume resources. They're net takers, not producers. 'Sides, how many jobs for these fresh hires couldn't have been done quicker, more efficiently & less expensive in the private sector? Strike 5.

6) She has passed a budget which will create $71 billion in debt over the next two years. And that's the minimum, assuming she doesn't tack on a couple 10 or 50 billion more next year. We're operating on a $11 billion deficit (or more) for last year & only a billion less the next two years each. And they're basing this pie in the sky budget on future oil prices that have about as much chance as a snowball in hell of succeeding. And even if the gods themselves rain $100/barrel oil down on us like manna from the heavens, there are still the first 5 issues. Strike 6.

In sum, she has done nothing, zero, to increase investment in Alberta and has, in fact, done exactly the opposite: chased investment away, not only with her extended timelines but her complete absence of sensible economic policy.

In two long years she'll be gone. Period. Relegated to the annals of Alberta history as the only premiere in provincial history to be a single-termer.



Rps said:


> Sinc, as an outsider, I saw Notley as inheriting a bad situation. Many of the issues with Alberta appear to me to be either out of the government's control or the prior premier's poor handling of issues. I do think the NDP was a protest vote but under the circumstances I don't think Notley has been all that bad. I do think the Carbon Tax would be a hotbutton issue in a resource economy such as Alberta's. But you are what 18 months from another election? If the employment rate shoots up who knows she might survive another term. But again, a lot of this is out of her hands. Diversification is the key here.....


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Except that Rachel passed the Carbon Tax, before the selfie king introduced any legislation. I suspect without her actions, the federal law would never have been enacted.



You may have that exactly backwards. It's like the difference between being reactive and proactive.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Except that Rachel passed the Carbon Tax, before the selfie king introduced any legislation. I suspect without her actions, the federal law would never have been enacted.


Very likely she was softening up the dupes.


----------



## FeXL

Saskatchewan's fighting it. I don't know how successful Wall will be but at least he didn't roll over & lift his leg before the Federal legislation even came to be. It's a cash grab made in heaven for Rachel. Gives her an out instead of a PST.



Rps said:


> I mean did Notley, and in our case Wynne have a choice?


There was some "creative" accounting under Klein, not much of which of which I agreed with. However, I don't believe it ever got under $9 billion. I didn't have a problem with his "Ralph Bucks" program (everybody in the province got a one-time $400 cheque).

I don't recall any issues under Lougheed.

Here's a couple of articles, one, the provincial website, which has little info, actually, and a second one, comparing the HTF to the Alaska's & Norway's. I found this excerpt interesting:



> The Heritage Savings Trust Fund had design flaws from the start. *It had three different—and at times conflicting—objectives: to save for the future, to strengthen and diversify the economy, and to improve the quality of life of Albertans.* The second objective was set aside in 1997 in favour of saving. But the variety of objectives in its first 20 years made it difficult to pursue any one effectively.


M'bold.



Rps said:


> Speaking of the Heritage Fund, didn't it almost get depleted under both Lougheed and Klein, so I guess it's open season for Notley.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, thanks for the links...they were both very informative and worth reading.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, thanks for the links...they were both very informative and worth reading.


Welcome.


----------



## FeXL

Learned more about Bernier in this article than I had picked up before.

Maxime Bernier is as centrist as it gets

I'm still not happy he's from Kaybec but this takes the edge off somewhat.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Learned more about Bernier in this article than I had picked up before.
> 
> Maxime Bernier is as centrist as it gets
> 
> I'm still not happy he's from Kaybec but this takes the edge off somewhat.


These policies really speak to me:



> Bernier's got a whole slew of ideas we're not used to seeing a major politician run with so front and centre, like abolishing boutique tax credits in favour of lower rates for all, ending provincial trade barriers, winding down supply management and ending corporate welfare (Mad Max is looking at you, Bombardier!).


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

At least they didn't stutter...

Feds spent almost $2,000 on 'vanity project' cut-outs of Trudeau



> On Tuesday it was revealed the federal government spent $1877.24 of taxpayer dollars on 14 celebrity-style cardboard cut-outs of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
> 
> The cuts-outs were ordered by Global Affairs Canada and placed at Canadian missions around the world.


If I'd have seen one the sucka would have had a moustache.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> At least they didn't stutter...
> 
> Feds spent almost *$2,000* on 'vanity project' cut-outs of Trudeau
> 
> If I'd have seen one the sucka would have had a moustache.



I don't like JT, but seriously $2K!!?? That is like 2 cents in real people's budgets. It must have been a slow news day for this stuff to make the news.


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting results in the BC provincial election. Wonder where the Green Party will throw it's support? We shall see.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting results in the BC provincial election. Wonder where the Green Party will throw it's support? We shall see.



You will notice among the three parties vying for the job, none were conservative.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> You will notice among the three parties vying for the job, nine were conservative.


To be honest, I did not follow the BC election closely. We are having a provincial election here in NS at the end of this month. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> To be honest, I did not follow the BC election closely. We are having a provincial election here in NS at the end of this month. Paix, mon ami.



My bad; I meant "none," not "nine."


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> My bad; I meant "none," not "nine."


 Oops. Now I see what you meant. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> You will notice among the three parties vying for the job, none were conservative.


That's because the BC Liberals are largely centrist conservatives. Thought you knew that, neighbours and all.


----------



## 18m2

The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

After the absentee ballots are counted one riding result that's separated by 9 votes could switch giving the Libs the majority they need.

The Greens and Liberals likely can't agree on policy so that marriage will likely fail. Horgan (NDP) and Weaver (Greens) have demonstrated they dislike each other. I'm not sure they can cooperate.

I read where the final counting will be complete around May 23.


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> The fat lady hasn't sung yet.
> 
> After the absentee ballots are counted one riding result that's separated by 9 votes could switch giving the Libs the majority they need.
> 
> The Greens and Liberals likely can't agree on policy so that marriage will likely fail. Horgan (NDP) and Weaver (Greens) have demonstrated they dislike each other. I'm not sure they can cooperate.
> 
> I read where the final counting will be complete around May 23.


Thanks for the update. Didn't realize it could still flip.


----------



## Rps

18m2 said:


> The fat lady hasn't sung yet.
> 
> After the absentee ballots are counted one riding result that's separated by 9 votes could switch giving the Libs the majority they need.
> 
> The Greens and Liberals likely can't agree on policy so that marriage will likely fail. Horgan (NDP) and Weaver (Greens) have demonstrated they dislike each other. I'm not sure they can cooperate.
> 
> I read where the final counting will be complete around May 23.


A question if I may. My understanding is the current seat count is 43 Lib, 41 NDP, and 3 Green. If the Libs pickup a seat isn't that a tie, so to speak, so who supplies the speaker? And is it possible the speaker could vote non condidence in the Libs and ask the NDP to form a government?


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> A question if I may. My understanding is the current seat count is 43 Lib, 41 NDP, and 3 Green. If the Libs pickup a seat isn't that a tie, so to speak, so who supplies the speaker? And is it possible the speaker could vote non condidence in the Libs and ask the NDP to form a government?


If the Libs pick up a seat then some other party loses one so not a tie. Wonder who won Kootenay East?


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> If the Libs pick up a seat then some other party loses one so not a tie. Wonder who won Kootenay East?


Ah, but who would supply the speaker?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Ah, but who would supply the speaker?


If the Libs have a majority, why would that even be a question?


----------



## Rps

Isn't the Speaker a member offered from the House. If the Speaker is a Liberal it is one less seat is it not?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Isn't the Speaker a member offered from the House. If the Speaker is a Liberal it is one less seat is it not?



I believe you are correct. I believe the speaker can also be chosen from the ranks of the Opposition, but I don't think the nominated member must accept the job. When the seat totals are as close as they are in this BC election, who knows?


----------



## Macfury

In BC the Speaker is elected through secret ballot by the MLAs. Very unlikely that the party in power would elect an Opposition Member. The speaker can vote to break a tie, but is constrained to vote for the _status quo_--sometimes against reform proposals.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> In BC the Speaker is elected through secret ballot by the MLAs. Very unlikely that the party in power would elect an Opposition Member. The speaker can vote to break a tie, but is constrained to vote for the _status quo_--sometimes against reform proposals.


Thus the question. The Libs would need a two seat pickup to ensure they are okay.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Thus the question. The Libs would need a two seat pickup to ensure they are okay.


But your comment was about nominating a Speaker from another party. I doubt an NDP Speaker could keep him/herself from voting against the _status quo_.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> But your comment was about nominating a Speaker from another party. I doubt an NDP Speaker could keep him/herself from voting against the _status quo_.


Actually, it was about getting a Speaker.


----------



## eMacMan

Over in BC not bothering to count absentee ballots until May 23 still seems more than a bit odd.

Perhaps the message is these voters are unimportant. Perhaps it is too provide opportunity for some back room shenanigans.

OTOH the relatively short election notice in Canada may mean it takes that long to send out and receive the absentee ballots.


----------



## SINC

We should learn from this.

National Post View: Let Canadians learn from Ontario to be wary of politicians who claim green schemes won’t be costly | National Post


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!
We hope the botox supply is endless in your next career move. S'long Rona!

Rona Ambrose set to leave federal politics - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!
> We hope the botox supply is endless in your next career move. S'long Rona!
> 
> Rona Ambrose set to leave federal politics - Politics - CBC News


No need to insult her, especially re her weight. Actually, she did well as the Interim Conservative Leader.


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> No need to insult her, especially re her weight. Actually, she did well as the Interim Conservative Leader.


No insult intended. You might have a look at what botox does....certainly not weight management, just puffy lips and crack infills.

Anyway Rona, s'long!


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> No insult intended. You might have a look at what botox does....certainly not weight management, just puffy lips and crack infills.
> 
> Anyway Rona, s'long!


It was your use of "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!". This is what bullies have called out in high schools in North America to body shame girls. Hopefully, I was wrong in my judgment of your use of this word. I just don't see what you were trying to say by using this particular word.


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> It was your use of "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!". This is what bullies have called out in high schools in North America to body shame girls. Hopefully, I was wrong in my judgment of your use of this word. I just don't see what you were trying to say by using this particular word.


Oh I see. I was not aware. 

"Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!" is the internationally renown call for pigs at the trough. Nothing to do with body shaming.


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> Oh I see. I was not aware.
> 
> "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!" is the internationally renown call for pigs at the trough. Nothing to do with body shaming.


True. If you were on a farm and wanted to call in the pigs for feeding, this is what you call out. In high schools this is one of the main ways to body shame a female due to her weight, along with the actual word "pig", "cow", etc. All I am saying is think before you write something about a person. I still don't see why you used the phrase "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!" 

Who exactly are you? I assume that you are not FeXL.


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> True. If you were on a farm and wanted to call in the pigs for feeding, this is what you call out. In high schools this is one of the main ways to body shame a female due to her weight, along with the actual word "pig", "cow", etc. All I am saying is think before you write something about a person. I still don't see why you used the phrase "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!"
> 
> Who exactly are you? I assume that you are not FeXL.


Again the use of "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!" is a metaphor for a call to summon politicians who eat from the trough. Nothing to do with weight shaming.

You are correct, I am FUXL, FeXL's opposite.


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> Again the use of "Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!" is a metaphor for a call to summon politicians who eat from the trough. Nothing to do with weight shaming.
> 
> You are correct, I am FUXL, FeXL's opposite.


I could see you saying this about her if she was accepting a position in the Senate. She stepped up when there was no one else ready, willing and able to assume the leadership. I am not a supporter of the Conservatives, but give her credit where credit is due. She earned her pay, and has not been "at the trough".


----------



## SINC

Thanks Dr. G., for putting that guy in his place. One would think someone of that IQ level could do better, wouldn't you?


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Thanks Dr. G., for putting that guy in his place. One would think someone of that IQ level could do better, wouldn't you?


Don't know who the person is, Sinc, but even though I am not a supporter of the Conservative party, I saw no need to use that phrase.


----------



## eMacMan

I am no supporter of any political party and still found the remark out of line. 

I doubt that Rona had sufficient connections in the Harpoon era to have benefited to any great extent, graftwise that is. With the Dauphin in charge her opportunities are even more limited.


----------



## FeXL

No argument. Factually ignorant, topically ill-informed and just plain wrong...



FUXL said:


> You are correct, I am FUXL, FeXL's opposite.


----------



## Rps

Just to toss in my two cents, I think the Cons missed the mark by not making her ( Ms. Ambrose ) the leader. I have found her quite competent in her portfolios and she will be missed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Just to toss in my two cents, I think the Cons missed the mark by not making her ( Ms. Ambrose ) the leader. I have found her quite competent in her portfolios and she will be missed.


I agree, Rp. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> I agree, Rp. Paix, mon ami.


Really, when you look at her political assignments she is right up there with Big Jean in position held and experience.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Really, when you look at her political assignments she is right up there with Big Jean in position held and experience.


True once again, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> I agree, Rp. Paix, mon ami.



She has been quite a respectable leader for her party in the interim. Can you imagine O'Leary having even an ounce of her diplomacy?


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> She has been quite a respectable leader for her party in the interim. Can you imagine O'Leary having even an ounce of her diplomacy?


Very true.


----------



## Dr.G.

PM Trudeau thanked MP Rona Ambrose for her "Heart, humor and hard work" in Parliament. Shows some class that some in this thread do not display.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

While B.C. counts ballots, the U.S. signs a big LNG deal with China



> While British Columbia was counting absentee ballots from this week’s election to find out who will form the next government — which could mean more political risk for proposed multi-billion-dollar liquefied natural gas projects — the United States was announcing a big deal with China that paves the way for an acceleration of its LNG industry.
> 
> *The deal...has the potential to alter global LNG trade by connecting the U.S., the fastest growing supplier, with China, the largest growth market*, according to Massimo Di-Odoardo, head of global gas and LNG research at natural resources consultancy Wood Mackenzie.


M'bold.

More:



> For Canada’s nascent West Coast LNG sector, which has been struggling to take off because of slow government decision-making and environmental activism, and which was initially supported by many Chinese companies, it’s another sign energy consumers are moving on to more competitive jurisdictions that actually get stuff done.
> 
> It also shows that *Prime Minister Justin Trudeau...got outplayed on energy by U.S. President Donald Trump*...
> 
> *Canadian LNG exports to China should have been a slam dunk.*


M'bold.

Way to go, Juthdin!!!

There's more, especially the last sentence, but I've excerpted enough.

Perhaps if you'd just sent one of your cardboard cut-outs to Beijing...

While we're on energy...

The Hairdo wants to stop almost all tanker traffic on the Left Coast. Why is it that tankers are still allowed on the east coast?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

'Course not.

Liberals’ refugee system overhaul postponed indefinitely despite increase in asylum seekers



> A Liberal election promise to overhaul the way asylum claims are handled has been postponed indefinitely despite that increased numbers of people seeking refuge that have put the system at risk, The Canadian Press has learned.
> 
> One of the options on the table, multiple sources have told The Canadian Press, is rejigging the historic Immigration and Refugee Board and handing some of its authority to the Immigration Department.
> 
> But those advocating for action before backlogs threaten the integrity of the system say they are up against a government that seems to have lost interest in spending more money or political capital to help asylum seekers.


A government that has "lost interest in spending more money"? Are we talking about the Liberals? :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

*Alberta PCs, Wildrose unveil plans to merge, create United Conservative Party*

The plan to unite the right and merge Alberta’s Wildrose and Progressive Conservative parties is happening.

Wildrose leader Brian Jean and Alberta Progressive Conservative Party leader Jason Kenney unveiled plans Thursday afternoon to unify the political parties into the United Conservative Party.

In a joint media conference, Jean and Kenney announced a tentative agreement has been reached.

The deal still has to be approved by 75 per cent of Wildrose members and just over 50 per cent of PC members. If it goes ahead, the new party will set up a leadership committee with an eye to electing a new leader by Oct. 28.
(Global News)​


----------



## SINC

Matters not what they call it. One thing you can count on is that it will defeat the socialist NDP and send them packing. Bye Rachel.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Matters not what they call it. One thing you can count on is that it will defeat the socialist NDP and send them packing. Bye Rachel.


I would prefer Wild Rose to be the one to knock Notley on her ass, but in an emergency, any party will do.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

That's funny!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

And funnily enough, it's one of those stupid memes you hate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> And funnily enough, it's one of those stupid memes you hate.


It's not a meme. It's an illustration for a satire in The Beaverton. The article was only partially funny though.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's not a meme. It's an illustration for a satire in The Beaverton. The article was only partially funny though.



That's why I went only for the visual and the headline. Too much exposition ruins the joke.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's why I went only for the visual and the headline. Too much exposition ruins the joke.


Good call! I should have listened!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Good call! I should have listened!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Hmmm..... doesn't pay his billls. Perhaps O'Leary has more in common with Trump than we thought. 










http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politic...tive-leadership-campaign-debt-bills-1.4123442


----------



## SINC

No surprise there at all. CBC lefties bashing the right at every opportunity. The CBC agenda stays true to form.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> No surprise there at all. CBC lefties bashing the right at every opportunity. The CBC agenda stays true to form.




Well, to be fair, it is Kevin O'Leary who didn't pay his bills, not the CBC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Don't even think about it, Hairdo...

Get ready for National Energy Program, the sequel



> He’s a Trudeau. He can’t help himself.
> 
> The federal Liberals have made two moves in the past week that leave the impression they are trying to centralize control over energy policy in Ottawa and away from the provinces (who have authority over natural resources under the constitution).
> 
> This looks like the makings of a second National Energy Program (NEP).


Related:

Trudeau In Edmonton Says He’s Going To Punish Alberta And Reward His Supporters



> Justin Trudeau has enough balls to show up in Edmonton today to promote child tax benefits in Edmonton.
> 
> ...
> 
> *“We’re making it more expensive for things that we don’t want and making it rewarding for people to choose lower carbon behaviours,” he said*.
> 
> In other works Trudeau wants to punish the biggest oil province in the world by putting a tax on carbon, and reward those who support the carbon tax, *which is only his supporters.*


Links' bold.

Related, too:

FUEL FOLLY: Carbon Tax To Hit Wallets Hard



> Fuel is the lifeblood of our economy. Every product we consume uses fuel somewhere throughout its life, whether through transportation or production.
> 
> That means there’s no way to increase fuel prices without increasing the price of everything else. As a result, higher fuel costs means the cost of living will go up.
> 
> Of course, that’s exactly what we can expect from the carbon tax.
> 
> While the Environment Minister still won’t tell Canadians how much the carbon tax will cost overall, some details on the impact on fuel costs have emerged.


----------



## FeXL

Growing cost of Liberals' gas plant scandal



> Talk about a chronic pain in the gas.
> 
> Ontario’s Progressive Conservatives are slamming the Liberal government after media reports revealed the cost for the now infamous gas plant scandal has jumped by over $1.5 billion. That’s in addition to the $1.2 billion previously revealed by the auditor general, the Tories say.
> 
> CTV News revealed Thursday that Ontario ratepayers will now have to start shelling out on their hydro bills for the two relocated gas plants behind the infamous scandal.
> 
> The pricetag to build the Sarnia gas plant sits at $360 million and the Napanee plant at $1.2 billion, CTV says.
> 
> PC Energy Critic Todd Smith called the costs “disgusting”.


----------



## Rps

FeXL we don't fully agree on a lot of issues but we are in lock step here. Both the Fed and Prov Liberals have made a hash of the energy programme. While I am a supporter of renewable energy these guys have clearly screwed it up and we will be paying for it for a long time. I really can't wait for an NEP 2, it worked last time in getting rid of a government hopefully this time as well.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I really can't wait for an NEP 2, it worked last time in getting rid of a government hopefully this time as well.


Alberta's economy can't take another $100 billion hit in the execution thereof...


----------



## FeXL

Welcome to Albertistan...

(Note: Article has the typical Red Star spin)

Ontario plans big boost to minimum wage, update of labour laws: Cohn



> Sweeping labour reforms — and a dramatic rise in the minimum wage up to $15 an hour — could soon target companies relying unfairly on part-time or contract work that deprives many Ontarians of decent wages from steady employment.
> 
> Ontario's Liberal government is debating a comprehensive update to labour laws that would boost private sector unionization, which has been declining at the same time as so-called precarious employment has left more and more people — middle class and working class — bouncing from one job to the next.


Related:

Ontario’s new workplace laws will be ‘profoundly negative’ for an economy already lacking competitiveness

I'm going to quote only the very first sentence. It's a phrase that every lefty who believes otherwise needs tattooed on their forehead...



> *Government cannot legislate prosperity.*


Yeah, my bold.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Welcome to Albertistan...


That buffoon Wynne knows the consequences of this idea. She's just hoping that people will get excited by the initial good feelings before the election--because many will lose their jobs after the election.

Also, this is a great way to unload welfare programs onto the private sector.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting read.

Barbara Kay: A lone academic dares to challenge accepted narratives about Canada’s residential school system



> As the token conservative on otherwise liberal panels, I have been a regular contributor to CBC radio’s comedy news trivia program, Because News, since September 2016. I was let go from this panel last week for my politically incorrect views on indigenous cultural appropriation (that I did not even express on CBC). I can now empathize (as opposed to merely sympathize) with the individuals who have paid a far greater price for the same reason.
> 
> Thankfully, there are a few independent thinkers on this hot-button issue who are protected by academic tenure from excommunication. They may experience collegial hostility, and be obstructed by their administrations or professional associations, but they cannot (yet) be fired or silenced. One such individual is Frances Widdowson, an associate professor in the department of economics, justice and policy studies at Mount Royal University in Calgary. On June 1, Widdowson will present a paper on aboriginal issues at Ryerson University at the Annual Meeting of the Canadian Political Science Association (CPSA) that is likely to be considered politically incorrect. It’ll be yet another instance in which this courageous scholar dares to poke a stick into the intelligentsia’s groupthink hive.


----------



## CubaMark

*Price tag for fixing Phoenix pay system now tops original cost*

The cost to fix the federal government's troubled Phoenix pay system has risen above the original amount spent to implement it.

Steve MacKinnon, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of Public Services and Procurement, announced on Wednesday a $142 million investment to hire more people to help fix the ongoing Phoenix payroll issues.

"We have a capacity problem. It's very simple," said MacKinnon. "We are trying to rebuild that capacity, step by step." 

With the additional money, the cost to fix Phoenix has risen to about $402 million — more than the $309.5 million it cost to implement the system.

In addition to the $142 million announced Wednesday, the government spent $50 million last year to bolster its satellite offices.

The government is also foregoing for three years an annual $70 million it was supposed to save on Phoenix. 

Last month, the federal government announced a new plan to tackle the payroll mess, which included a funding reallocation strategy using money originally earmarked as part of those anticipated savings to help departmental officials get employees paid on time.
(CBC)​
*Related:*

*Conservatives took payroll training responsibilities away from Phoenix creator IBM*

As the federal government shaped its plan to modernize the public service payroll system, CBC News has learned that the former Conservative government took training duties away from IBM — the company that created the Phoenix program.

The move raises new questions about what led to the payroll fiasco, as problems with training have been listed as a key cause of Phoenix's troubled rollout. 

"Responsibility for training design and execution was transferred to the Crown in March 2014," said IBM spokeswoman Carrie Bendzsa.

The change was made at the request of the former government, Bendsza confirmed by email. 

Conservative MP Diane Finley was the minister of Public Works at the time and responsible for overseeing the modernization project from 2013 to 2015. Her office refused multiple requests for an interview.
(CBC)​


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Never happen. Why would the Libs pass legislation that harms their chances at being elected?

John Ivison: Time for parliament to tighten election rules on third parties and foreign money



> It may never be known how much influence foreign money, wielded by hostile political advocacy groups, played in the Conservative Party’s defeat in 2015.
> 
> A complaint led by defeated Tory MP Joan Crockatt claims that federal election rules were broken by organizations like Leadnow, which used money donated from the U.S. to skew the result.
> 
> That may or may not be the case, and the Commissioner of Elections should look closely at the allegation.
> 
> *But what is clear is that there is a loophole in the Elections Act big enough to drive a bulldozer through — and it is Parliament’s job to close it.*


M'bold.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!
Nigel Wright broke ethics rules during Duffy affair, watchdog report says | National Newswatch


----------



## SINC

^

Meh, old and tired news means nothing now.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Meh, old and tired news means nothing now.


Good grief, FUXL really is the opposite of FeXL--because FeXL's posts are relevant and interesting.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Good grief, FUXL really is the opposite of FeXL--because FeXL's posts are relevant and interesting.


Why, thank you, MF. I try hard.


----------



## FeXL

Interesting set of questions.

NATO withdrawal? Reduced workweek? NDP's socialist caucus wants answers



> The NDP’s socialist caucus, which pushed for Tom Mulcair’s ouster as party leader, is demanding the current field of candidates declare their positions on, among things: withdrawing from NATO, reducing the work week, nationalizing at least two major banks, supporting the BDS movement and committing to a policy of no more pipelines.


After reading that article, I need to go take a shower...


----------



## Macfury

Sounds almost like that idiot Broadbent is back in charge...



FeXL said:


> Interesting set of questions.
> 
> NATO withdrawal? Reduced workweek? NDP's socialist caucus wants answers
> 
> 
> 
> After reading that article, I need to go take a shower...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

(ahem: he's playing you, not me)

Stop running from the truth: Justin Trudeau is playing us with his PR stunts



> He’s tackled quantum physics, photobombed a beach wedding, posed shirtless for selfies with a family hiking in the woods and, most recently, jogged past a group of Canadian teenagers heading to prom.
> 
> And each time, Justin Trudeau’s actions have earned lavish attention from media outlets in Canada and around the world.
> 
> But after it was pointed out that the shot of Trudeau breezing past the prom-bound teens was snapped by his official photographer, some Canadians have been asking why the media continues to fall for what seems to be a constant stream of PR stunts.


When even _The Grunnion_ begins to take note...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Interesting set of questions.
> 
> NATO withdrawal? Reduced workweek? NDP's socialist caucus wants answers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The NDP’s socialist caucus, which pushed for Tom Mulcair’s ouster as party leader, is demanding the current field of candidates declare their positions on, among things: withdrawing from NATO, reducing the work week, nationalizing at least two major banks, supporting the BDS movement and committing to a policy of no more pipelines.
> 
> 
> 
> After reading that article, I need to go take a shower...
Click to expand...

Unless Trump succeeds in repealing FATCA, I would have to support nationalizing at least one bank, provided that the banks US ties were divested, thereby making it immune to American terrorization of the bank and its customers.


----------



## SINC

Conservative leadership candidates stress unity and core values in final speeches - Politics - CBC News

If the Cons elect Bernier it will be yet another weak candidate from Quebec reminiscent of Stephane Dionne. Call it 'a lesson in losing an election 101' for the Cons. Bernier is the worst the Cons could do to themselves. Did anyone listen to him trying to stumble through his english presentation? Pathetic.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Conservative leadership candidates stress unity and core values in final speeches - Politics - CBC News
> 
> 
> 
> If the Cons elect Bernier it will be yet another weak candidate from Quebec reminiscent of Stephane Dionne. Call it 'a lesson in losing an election 101' for the Cons. Bernier is the worst the Cons could do to themselves. Did anyone listen to him trying to stumble through his english presentation? Pathetic.



Good. Then I hope they elect him.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Good. Then I hope they elect him.


Well, he only got 29% on the first ballot, so it looks as if they have a race. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

And the winner is ....................... Andrew Scheer on the 13th ballot.


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> And the winner is ....................... Andrew Scheer on the 13th ballot.


Souiee!, Souiee!!, Souiee!!!.....


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> Souiee!, Souiee!!, Souiee!!!.....


Once again, this makes little sense. Scheer sounds more progressive than most who ran in the race.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Good. Then I hope they elect him.


Such a reaction. Cons were smart enough to reject a Quebecer!


----------



## FUXL

SINC said:


> Such a reaction. Cons were smart enough to reject a Quebecer!


And stupid enough to elect a social conservative!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## SINC

^

So says an anon troll arse.


----------



## FUXL

SINC said:


> Such a reaction. Cons were smart enough to reject a Quebecer!


They did not go for the Libertarian!! Thank goodness they went for the bigot!


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> They did not go for the Libertarian!! Thank goodness they went for the bigot!


So says an arse troll.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Once again, this makes little sense. Scheer sounds more progressive than most who ran in the race.



Got to appeal to that centrist voter if they want to go anywhere.


----------



## FUXL

Love the CBC ass kissing going on. Looser!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Love the CBC ass kissing going on. Looser!



I think you mean "Loser," Mr. anon arse troll.


----------



## FUXL

SINC said:


> So says an arse troll.


Rectum? Darn near killed him!


----------



## FUXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> I think you mean "Loser," Mr. anon arse troll.


Depends on how loose you are:lmao::lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> They did not go for the Libertarian!! Thank goodness they went for the bigot!


How is he a bigot?


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> How is he a bigot?


Simple. So Con supporter. Say no more.


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> Simple. So Con supporter. Say no more.


Once again, this makes no sense. I am not a supporter of the Conservatives, but if I was, would you be calling me a bigot?


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> Once again, this makes no sense. I am not a supporter of the Conservatives, but if I was, would you be calling me a bigot?


Nope but buttressing the so con vote is a sign of being a bigot. Nice choice!


----------



## Dr.G.

FUXL said:


> Nope but buttressing the so con vote is a sign of being a bigot. Nice choice!


I am a fiscal liberal and a socially-conscious liberal ............... does this makes me a bigot? As I said, what you are saying makes no sense without some specific reason. This is what Pres. Trump does.


----------



## FUXL

Dr.G. said:


> I am a fiscal liberal and a socially-conscious liberal ............... does this makes me a bigot? As I said, what you are saying makes no sense without some specific reason. This is what Pres. Trump does.


Nope but getting votes from Brad Trost and Smelly Leach....sorry this guy is poison to the general electorate.


----------



## SINC

Well let's all just shorten FUXL to FU and tell the anon arse that every thing he posts gets a response. Allow me to start. 

Hey FUXL . . . FU!


----------



## FUXL

SINC said:


> Well let's all just shorten FUXL to FU and tell the anon arse that every thing he posts gets a response. Allow me to start.
> 
> Hey FUXL . . . FU!


You are showing yourself as being an asshole bud.


----------



## FUXL

I say stick a few hundred dollar bills on a fish hook, place it in front of her, and see if she lunges for it.

She will!

Caroline Mulroney hints at future career in politics - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FuXL's methods are interesting. It is clear many people do not know about feeding trolls. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> FuXL's methods are interesting.


Why?


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> You are showing yourself as being an asshole bud.


Hey FUXL . . . FU!
__________________


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Why?




Because you kids are taking it hook, line and sinker. That's why.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Because you kids are taking it hook, line and sinker. That's why.


I started to learn how to thoroughly use v-bulletin's abilities to figure out who it was--and who spends the most time PMing FuXL. No longer interests me.


----------



## Rps

FUXL said:


> You are showing yourself as being an asshole bud.


Pot calling the kettle black. It has been my experience that the one who calls someone a bigot is usually mirror looking. If you understood politics as well as you think you would have known the Con elected a rational choice. Think you should be more like some of our other members here who reinforce their arguments with logic rather than pejorative.


----------



## FeXL

Thoughts, MF? I know you said you liked Bernier.

Scheer’s sunny way will attract disappointed Trudeau voters 



> Andrew Scheer is the new Conservative leader, beating Maxime Bernier by the narrowest of margins, 51 per cent to 49 per cent. Mr. Bernier campaigned on an adventurous platform of economic libertarianism, including an end to supply management and corporate subsidies, and new approaches to equalization and to health-care funding. Mr. Scheer, in contrast, stressed continuity with past party policy. He positioned himself as the consensus candidate, the leading second or third choice.


----------



## FeXL

Getting close to the raping Alberta got under the NEP...

Hydro rate cut will cost Ontario at least $45 billion 



> Premier Kathleen Wynne’s plan to cut hydro bills by 25% comes with an electrifying price tag.
> 
> A review by Ontario Financial Accountability Officer Stephen LeClair says the minimum cost is $45 billion, but that number could soar to anywhere between $69 billion and $93 billion if the Fair Hydro Plan is financed with borrowed money.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, Bernier was not lik d by the grassroots. He would have been better served taking a middle of the road approach then slowly bring in his views once he won.....really poor political strategy on his part. What shocked me was O'Toole not getting more votes. Usually the 3rd placed guy really picks up votes from the anybody but crew....didn't happen here.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Getting close to the raping Alberta got under the NEP...
> 
> Hydro rate cut will cost Ontario at least $45 billion


FeXL much of the excess is based on the size of the deficit....which is getting larger everyday. But, the problem is how do we meet energy costs and fit in with the green policy. Funny, coal is bad, hydro is forgotten and the most dangerous and longest term effects are nuclear plants. Personally, I am against nuke plants...too costly in the long term on many counts.....not just money.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, Bernier was not lik d by the grassroots. He would have been better served taking a middle of the road approach then slowly bring in his views once he won.....really poor political strategy on his part. What shocked me was O'Toole not getting more votes. Usually the 3rd placed guy really picks up votes from the anybody but crew....didn't happen here.


Rps, I look at the list & realize I know next to nothing about any of them. Hadn't even heard of most of them. For reasons unknown, I just haven't followed the race much.

I probably could have dealt with Bernier but, like SINC, I'm tired of Quebec politicians ruling the west, of which it is patently obvious they either have no clue or no concern for or both.

I know she was anathema to the left but I liked much of what Leitch said. However, in this CINO race, she was likely far too politically right to have made it.

I know a little about Scheel but feel he is a bit too centrist, even for my tastes.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, I personally, like the U.S.'s primary approach. Divide the country up into units, have a primary there with debate, have anyone who is interested vote, and the winner is the person with say a magic number or 60% of the vote. If you don't enter the primary region you get no votes for that region. I agree you had to be a Con fanatic to know all who ran......or should that be also rans.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Funny, coal is bad, hydro is forgotten and the most dangerous and longest term effects are nuclear plants. Personally, I am against nuke plants...too costly in the long term on many counts.....not just money.


In a sad, twisted & uninformed way I can..._almost_...understand the issue with coal. The lack of support for hydro leaves me speechless. I have fewer issues with nuke's than you do. Living in the land of inexpensive, readily available natural gas with no support from Green just makes me shake my head-idiots. Tax-payer supported renewables make me want to voluminously hurl in technicolour.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> But, the problem is how do we meet energy costs and fit in with the green policy.


You don't. Green energy is hideously expensive and is the primary reason for the grotesque cost increases, as the price of fossil fuels falls.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Thoughts, MF? I know you said you liked Bernier.


Acceptable but not in any way exciting to me. Bernier promised to upset the apple cart in a way that inspired me. Could vote for Scheer without holding my nose, but still a disappointment.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> You don't. Green energy is hideously expensive and is the primary reason for the grotesque cost increases, as the price of fossil fuels falls.


I think we are approaching a critical mass where fossil fuels are no longer socially viable. The problem is the governments of the world are scamming their citizens.

I know I am not the brightest guy but I have yet been able to read and make sense of carbon tax and pricing. What really gets me is the buying of credits. So this is so important we are extorting our population to comply, but, you can buy credits if you want. So let's see, I haven't raped, robbed, killed, set fire to, drunk drove in awhile so why shouldn't I be able to purchase a credit to let me off when I do......hmmmmmmmm.......same thing isn't it. To me carbon tax and pricing is a scam and does an injustice to it's purpose.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I think we are approaching a critical mass where fossil fuels are no longer socially viable. The problem is the governments of the world are scamming their citizens.


It's not socially viable to a small and vocal segment of scientifically illiterate citizens and progressive elites. If anyone promoting this claptrap was truly honest about the price, a vast majority of citizens would put their collective foot down.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> It's not socially viable to a small and vocal segment of scientifically illiterate citizens and progressive elites.


The loudest advocates are dishonest. So be it. As for a $10-60/tonne tax, that seems reasonable to me, provided it is combined with most related programs being cancelled. A couple programs can be supported with evidence, but most fail. In other words, the people boldly shouting "evidence based policy" are not using evidence. 

The above sets aside the position that the whole idea is flawed. I consider that a separate debate.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> The loudest advocates are dishonest. So be it. As for a $10-60/tonne tax, that seems reasonable to me, provided it is combined with most related programs being cancelled. A couple programs can be supported with evidence, but most fail. In other words, the people boldly shouting "evidence based policy" are not using evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> The above sets aside the position that the whole idea is flawed. I consider that a separate debate.



Flawed or not, what the populace believes seems to be what determines policy. I remember a time when the populace believed that the alleged existence of WMD's justified a ten year pre-emptive strike/occupation of a sovereign nation. More recently, I can recall 62 million people believing that Trump would make America great again. Closer to home, I recall and still hear people complaining that the NDP will destroy Alberta's economy. People believe what they want to believe. I don't know enough about carbon taxes to render an intelligent opinion, but I do think creating less pollution is a good idea. When I was young, that was the key word: pollution.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Flawed or not, what the populace believes seems to be what determines policy. I remember a time when the populace believed that the alleged existence of WMD's justified a ten year pre-emptive strike/occupation of a sovereign nation.


They didn't believe it would require a 10-year occupation, just a pre-emptive strike. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> More recently, I can recall 62 million people believing that Trump would make America great again.


It's working!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Closer to home, I recall and still hear people complaining that the NDP will destroy Alberta's economy.


It's happening! The fourth downgrade in Alberta's credit rating occurred very recently.



Freddie_Biff said:


> People believe what they want to believe. I don't know enough about carbon taxes to render an intelligent opinion, but I do think creating less pollution is a good idea. When I was young, that was the key word: pollution.


Carbon dioxide is what plants thrive on. It's not pollution.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Aaaaaaaaand, it starts.

Liberals waste no time branding Scheer as social conservative extremist



> Even before Conservatives began counting the ballots, the ruling Liberals set out to frame the new Opposition leader as a far-right extremist.
> 
> Only trouble was, the relentless barrage of email missives from Liberal headquarters in the days and hours leading up to Saturday's vote were aimed largely at Maxime Bernier, the front-runner and presumed winner of the marathon Conservative leadership race.
> 
> Conservatives may have thought they'd nipped that strategy in the bud when, on the 13th and final ballot, they opted by the thinnest of margins for an ostensibly safer choice: the genial, low key Andrew Scheer, former Speaker of the House of Commons.
> 
> But the outcome hasn't substantially changed the governing party's narrative.


More:




> There might be another bonus for the government in Scheer's upset. As a former Speaker who repeatedly called for decorum in the Commons, he may be less inclined to obstruct the Liberal agenda, which the Conservatives have been doing almost non-stop since January.
> 
> "I hope they're more constructive," said Rodriguez, the Liberal whip. "They can't be less than what they were, blocking, playing all kinds of games on a daily basis."


Wah. Like the Libs have never played games in the Commons.

Almost makes ya wanna...LYAO!!!


----------



## FeXL

C'mon, Juthdin. All they need is MOAR MONEY!!!

NOT IN SERVICE



> Toronto was supposed to have 121 new streetcars by now. We have received only 35.
> 
> That’s the crux of the problem with the state of the TTC’s $1-billion contract with Bombardier for 204 low-floor Flexity streetcars to be delivered by 2019. Almost eight years into the deal, Bombardier has repeatedly failed to meet its delivery deadlines, demonstrated quality-control problems that have dragged on for years, and promised that improvements that would double or triple the speed of delivery were around the corner.


When even the Red Star is beginning to take note...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Not news to anyone paying attention.

Our ‘fake news’ carbon targets

I'm going to head directly down to the punchline:



> *The federal and provincial carbon pricing plans now being imposed on Canadians aren’t going to get us there because their primary purpose is to increase government revenues, not lower emissions. In other words, they’re cash grabs.*


Yeah, my bold.

Where's that little piggy, squealin' away?

Curious, we never hear from him when the real pigs are at the trough...


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...legislature/article35147472/?click=sf_globefb

Guess we do live in "interesting times" ............. or, as Dickens once wrote "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." We shall see.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Guess we do live in "interesting times"


Does this surprise you, Dr.G?

It doesn't me.

A vote of non-confidence will be called soon, it will likely be passed & a new election will be called. Who knows how that will end up is anybody's guess. Turnout was around 60% last time, that's actually fairly high. Don't know if a re-election will spur more voters or cause others to throw up their hands in defeat.

Either way, lose/lose...


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> Does this surprise you, Dr.G?
> 
> It doesn't me.
> 
> A vote of non-confidence will be called soon, it will likely be passed & a new election will be called. Who knows how that will end up is anybody's guess. Turnout was around 60% last time, that's actually fairly high. Don't know if a re-election will spur more voters or cause others to throw up their hands in defeat.
> 
> Either way, lose/lose...


To be honest, I do not know much about BC politics. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

If it looks like a duck...

Ontario to kick off 150th birthday celebration with giant inflatable duck costing $200Gs



> The Ontario government will celebrate the country’s 150th birthday with a giant rubber duck — and taxpayers are taking a bath.
> 
> Ontario PC MPP Vic Fedeli said the $200,000 birthday duck tour — more than half of it covered by Ontario — is a sure sign of a government with “messed up” priorities.


And before the defenders come along & start rationalizing it because it's _only_ 200 grand, (just like the defender for Juthdin's cardboard cutouts) it not so much the money as the principle.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> To be honest, I do not know much about BC politics. Paix, mon ami.


Here's a good overview:

B.C. Election: Greens to support NDP in four-year government deal



> Clark’s Liberal government has 43 seats in the legislature, compared to a combined 44 Green-NDP (41 NDP and three Green).
> 
> After six years as premier, Clark now has two options: Resign immediately, or recall the legislature and lose the confidence of the house when the Green-NDP MLAs vote down her throne speech and budget. Then she’d have to resign anyway.


More:



> The two parties united have 44 seats in the legislature and the slimmest of majorities. If they are forced to appoint a Speaker from their ranks, they’d drop to a tied 43 seats with the Liberals and the Speaker would have to break the tie votes.
> 
> No MLAs, cabinet ministers or the premier could leave the building for key votes, get sick, take vacation or miss a day of the session or else government would be at risk of being overwhelmed by the Liberal opposition.


Interesting. I see it as only a matter of time.

Related:

B.C. election could be over as NDP and Greens announce ‘difficult’ deal to form government


----------



## FeXL

At least some things appeal.

Andrew Scheer sells conservatism with a smile 



> He pledges to end corporate welfare, which was one of the big pluses of the Maxime Bernier campaign.
> 
> He's saying a flat out no to carbon taxes.
> 
> He thinks that, as he said in his victory speech, "radical Islamic terrorism is a threat to every single Canadian."
> 
> And he wants to decrease funding for universities that don't protect free speech. This was his promise that got the biggest applause from the crowd in Toronto Saturday night. No wonder. People are tired of the lunatic fringe nonsense happening on campus, underwritten by their tax dollars.


I find few issues with any of those.


----------



## FeXL

I've noted my fence-sitting position about the legalization of marijuana on these boards before. The more I read articles like this the less inclined I am to believe it's a good thing.

Cannabis legislation fails to protect Canada’s youth



> With tabling of Bill C-45, the federal government has moved one step closer to fulfilling its election promise to legalize the use of cannabis in Canada, despite concerns over the many health risks associated with its use. The purported purpose of the act is to protect public health and safety,1 yet some of the act’s provisions appear starkly at odds with this objective, particularly for Canada’s youth.
> 
> Simply put, cannabis should not be used by young people. It is toxic to their cortical neuronal networks, with both functional and structural changes seen in the brains of youth who use cannabis regularly.2 The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health has stated unequivocally that “cannabis is not a benign substance and its health harms increase with intensity of use.”3 Although adults are also susceptible to the harmful effects of cannabis, the developing brain is especially sensitive. The Canadian Paediatric Society cautions that marijuana use in youth is strongly linked to “cannabis dependence and other substance use disorders; the initiation and maintenance of tobacco smoking; an increased presence of mental illness, including depression, anxiety and psychosis; impaired neurological development and cognitive decline; and diminished school performance and lifetime achievement.”2 The lifetime risk of dependence on marijuana is about 9%; however, this increases to almost 17% in those who start using as teenagers.4


----------



## Macfury

I don't believe the government can make a good case for becoming the guardian of a toxic product delivered by smoke. They should simply stop enforcing the laws on adults and treat pot like an untaxable plant food product--like carrots. All enforcement should be aimed at kid use. The excitement about raising tax revenue doesn't wash. If it was the prime mover, they should also sell heroin and crack.


----------



## FeXL

In at least some ways I find this just another experiment of gov't involvement in business, the carcasses of past efforts littering the landscape.


----------



## FeXL

Can't imagine this being disruptive at all. Nosiree...

Muslims quietly pray in B.C. public schools, despite protests in Ontario



> The thorny issue of whether Muslim students should be allowed to pray in Canadian secular schools aroused a storm of protests this year in a large school district in Toronto.
> 
> But Muslim students have for years quietly been provided space to pray in private in Metro Vancouver public high schools, particularly in Burnaby and Surrey.
> 
> Metro Vancouver Muslim leader Aasim Rashid said it’s essential that Muslim students be given a space to fulfil their “obligation” to pray five times each day — plus join a religious service every Friday afternoon.
> 
> “It’s a religious obligation that is placed upon every Muslim from the time they reach puberty,” said Rashid, a former mufti with the B.C. Muslim Association who heads an independent school in Surrey called the Al-Ihsan Educational Foundation.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Can't imagine this being disruptive at all. Nosiree...
> 
> Muslims quietly pray in B.C. public schools, despite protests in Ontario


How is providing a space for students who wish to fulfil their religious obligations "disruptive"? Why does it offend you? 

As the article notes, Jewish citizens have Saturday to recognize their religious obligations; Christians have Sunday. The muslim equivalent is Friday, which is not accommodated in our traditional calendar. I'm not saying it should (we'd end up working 3 days a year if we accommodated everyone's religious or other wacko beliefs), but this situation is not forcing non-muslims to pray to Allah or something nefarious.

I honestly cannot understand your outrage. Like many issues that get blown up in the media, this wasn't a problem until some busybody like yourself started making a fuss. Providing a prayer space for muslims is a practice that had been going on for quite some time, with no fuss or muss (from the article cited above):

_...Surrey and Burnaby school district officials said this week that they have long accommodated the religious expectations of Muslim students and those of other faiths.

“These things are handled in a quiet way. We usually find a quiet room for the Muslims, and other students, to hold their prayers,” said Surrey school board spokesman Douglas Strachan.

The Surrey school board has also for more than a decade allowed orthodox Sikh students to wear kirpans, or ceremonial daggers, in public schools “as long as they’re hidden from view and kept sheathed,” Strachan said.

“We believe in doing all we can to accommodate religious practices so that all students feel welcome.”

When Burnaby school board officials were asked whether their district accommodates Muslim students who want to pray or hold Friday services, they initially said the issue had not arisen.

But after Burnaby communications manager Jodie Wilson contacted all eight of the district’s high schools, she confirmed each had been doing so for years.

Metro Vancouver has about 90,000 Muslims, accounting for 3.5 per cent of the population, with many in Burnaby and Surrey._​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> How is providing a space for students who wish to fulfil their religious obligations "disruptive"? Why does it offend you?
> 
> As the article notes, Jewish citizens have Saturday to recognize their religious obligations; Christians have Sunday. The muslim equivalent is Friday, which is not accommodated in our traditional calendar. I'm not saying it should (we'd end up working 3 days a year if we accommodated everyone's religious or other wacko beliefs), but this situation is not forcing non-muslims to pray to Allah or something nefarious.


No public accommodation in schools is made for any other religion and that seems right to me. The policy should be absolute.


----------



## FeXL

It has nothing at all to do with the space. It's 'cause at least twice a day all the Muslim children are herded out to go pray & at least twice a day they are all herded back into the classroom. Plus, on Fridays, they have service.

Placing the religious needs of Muslim students aside for 30 seconds (I know, it's a stretch...), what about the needs of every other student in the school for an uninterrupted, quality education? What about the needs of every teacher to have an uninterrupted classroom in which to teach their students?

As a teacher, how does one go about with lesson plans for missing praying students? There are few enough teaching minutes in a day in the first place, let alone having to accomodate the interruptions of entering, exiting & missing students.

And, weren't you one of the ones on these boards some time back castigating Catholic schools?



CubaMark said:


> How is providing a space for students who wish to fulfil their religious obligations "disruptive"? Why does it offend you?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> It has nothing at all to do with the space. It's 'cause at least twice a day all the Muslim children are herded out to go pray & at least twice a day they are all herded back into the classroom. Plus, on Fridays, they have service.
> 
> Placing the religious needs of Muslim students aside for 30 seconds (I know, it's a stretch...), what about the needs of every other student in the school for an uninterrupted, quality education? What about the needs of every teacher to have an uninterrupted classroom in which to teach their students?


Is this the reality, or are you pulling this scenario out of thin air? The "herding" of students, the "interruptions"? Or do students simply come and go at the required time, to a classroom / gym / whatever to do their thing?

Do students leave classrooms for other reasons? Like going to the bathroom? Is that disruptive? Do you realize how far you're reaching to make this an issue?



FeXL said:


> As a teacher, how does one go about with lesson plans for missing praying students? There are few enough teaching minutes in a day in the first place, let alone having to accomodate the interruptions of entering, exiting & missing students.


I don't know. Have there been complaints from teachers? Are muslim students grades suffering because of this requirement to pray? Where is the evidence? The data? Smoke signals? Something to justify your dander being up?



FeXL said:


> And, weren't you one of the ones on these boards some time back castigating Catholic schools?


Can you link to the post in question? I've tried the in-ehMac search engine (useless) and using Google's site specific search, and can't seem to find the post to which you refer. I'd appreciate being to comment, if you can dig it up.


----------



## Macfury

Was it inconvenient for non-Christians if Christians said the Lord's Prayer in the morning? Inconvenience had nothing to do with abandoning it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> Is this the reality, or are you pulling this scenario out of thin air? The "herding" of students, the "interruptions"? Or do students simply come and go at the required time, to a classroom / gym / whatever to do their thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Do students leave classrooms for other reasons? Like going to the bathroom? Is that disruptive? Do you realize how far you're reaching to make this an issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. Have there been complaints from teachers? Are muslim students grades suffering because of this requirement to pray? Where is the evidence? The data? Smoke signals? Something to justify your dander being up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you link to the post in question? I've tried the in-ehMac search engine (useless) and using Google's site specific search, and can't seem to find the post to which you refer. I'd appreciate being to comment, if you can dig it up.




Good luck with all that, amigo.


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting election results coming in here in NS. So far, it looks like a Liberal minority government, down from a Liberal majority government. Still, it could easily swing to a Conservative minority government. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting election results coming in here in NS. So far, it looks like a Liberal minority government, down from a Liberal majority government. Still, it could easily swing to a Conservative minority government. We shall see.


By 11:30pm Atlantic Time, some 22,000 "out of district" ballots will be dumped onto the board... there are a lot of razor-thin ridings right now that could see a quick flip.

_Currently_: 24 Liberal; 17 PC; 9 NDP. 

In a half-hour's time, we should have some significant news....


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> By 11:30pm Atlantic Time, some 22,000 "out of district" ballots will be dumped onto the board... there are a lot of razor-thin ridings right now that could see a quick flip.
> 
> _Currently_: 24 Liberal; 17 PC; 9 NDP.
> 
> In a half-hour's time, we should have some significant news....


Woke up to a Liberal majority government here in NS, Mark. The Liberals held on to 27 seats.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Woke up to a Liberal majority government here in NS, Mark. The Liberals held on to 27 seats.



Are there actually any Conservative or Progressive Conservative governments left anywhere in Canada?


----------



## SINC

Granted the majority are Liberal, but conservative based parties out number the NDP by double, in power in both Manitoba and Saskatchewan, compared to the lone and most likely to be defeated NDP in Alberta.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Granted the majority are Liberal, but conservative based parties out number the NDP by double, in power in both Manitoba and Saskatchewan, compared to the lone and most likely to be defeated NDP in Alberta.



Lone? Are you unaware of the province next door, the NDP/Green coalition? Also, the Saskatchewan Party is not the PC or Conservative party. My question was very specific: name one province that actually has a PC government anymore.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Lone? Are you unaware of the province next door, the NDP/Green coalition? Also, the Saskatchewan Party is not the PC or Conservative party. My question was very specific: name one province that actually has a PC government anymore.


None, I hope. The "progressive" needs to be burned out of that brand.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Woke up to a Liberal majority government here in NS, Mark. The Liberals held on to 27 seats.


I wasted my evening waiting for that last bunch of votes to come in... the Liberals received their final 2 seat wins to push them into majority territory just as McNeill was coming to the stage. 

Bleh. XX)

Four more years of bumbling, of Conservative austerity economics in Liberal sheep clothing, and the Progressive Conservatives sitting in the centre, if not a little bit left-of. 

Nova Scotia politics, man....


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Lone? Are you unaware of the province next door, the NDP/Green coalition? Also, the Saskatchewan Party is not the PC or Conservative party. My question was very specific: name one province that actually has a PC government anymore.


A coalition is not a government elected by the people. It is a *political party alignment designed to seize power* from the party with the mandate to govern from the people. You can be as specific as you wish of course, but the Alberta NDP party is doomed as is any coalition in BC. If it went back to the people as it should, my bet is the coalition members would be punished at the polls for their attempted power grab.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> A coalition is not a government elected by the people. It is a *political party alignment designed to seize power* from the party with the mandate to govern from the people. You can be as specific as you wish of course, but the Alberta NDP party is doomed as is any coalition in BC. If it went back to the people as it should, my bet is the coalition members would be punished at the polls for their attempted power grab.



You prefer the Liberal government in BC, do you?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> You prefer the Liberal government in BC, do you?


Why not? They have no alignment with other Liberal parties and govern as conservatives in that province.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Why not? They have no alignment with other Liberal parties and govern as conservatives in that province.



Are you speaking for Sinc now? Don't think he can answer his own questions?


----------



## Macfury

I'm simply speaking. Just ignore my post if it's tying your knickers in a knot.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Are you speaking for Sinc now? Don't think he can answer his own questions?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I'm simply speaking. Just ignore my post if it's tying your knickers in a knot.



My, such a need for attention you have.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> My, such a need for attention you have.


I get more of it in real life than you could imagine! What I get here is just a little icing on the cake.


----------



## FeXL

As opposed to the EnDeePee or Green's? Hell, ya...



Freddie_Biff said:


> You prefer the Liberal government in BC, do you?


----------



## FeXL

Open thread, Freddie. Means open season & no bag limit.

Cause it's not like you ever contribute to a conversation you were never originally a part of...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Don't think he can answer his own questions?


----------



## FeXL

Why are you hung up on a name?



Freddie_Biff said:


> My question was very specific: name one province that actually has a PC government anymore.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Are there actually any Conservative or Progressive Conservative governments left anywhere in Canada?


Paul Davis was sworn in as the 12th Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador on September 26, 2014. He was the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of NL. 

Dwight Ball is the 13th and current Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador since December 14, 2015. He is the leader of the Liberal Party of NL.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Paul Davis was sworn in as the 12th Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador on September 26, 2014. He was the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of NL.
> 
> 
> 
> Dwight Ball is the 13th and current Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador since December 14, 2015. He is the leader of the Liberal Party of NL.



Thanks for actually answering the question. So is it fair to say there are no Progressive Conservative government's left in Canada? Even federally? Because that was a pretty long run, from Confederation until now (mind you, the Progressive part didn't come until later). Also John A. MacDonald was the party leader of both the Conservatives and the Liberal-Conservatives, a bizarre sort of concept we don't see anymore today.


----------



## Macfury

Why are you looking specifically for the PC brand? It's a bit of a hybrid monster that nobody misses.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Thanks for actually answering the question. So is it fair to say there are no Progressive Conservative government's left in Canada? Even federally? Because that was a pretty long run, from Confederation until now (mind you, the Progressive part didn't come until later). Also John A. MacDonald was the party leader of both the Conservatives and the Liberal-Conservatives, a bizarre sort of concept we don't see anymore today.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Why are you looking specifically for the PC brand? It's a bit of a hybrid monster that nobody misses.



Because the Liberals are still Liverals, and the NDP are still NDP. It would appear only the Conservatives are actively seeking to break ties with their past.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Thanks for actually answering the question. So is it fair to say there are no Progressive Conservative government's left in Canada? Even federally? Because that was a pretty long run, from Confederation until now (mind you, the Progressive part didn't come until later). Also John A. MacDonald was the party leader of both the Conservatives and the Liberal-Conservatives, a bizarre sort of concept we don't see anymore today.


There are not may progressive Conservatives left in Parliament. When I first came to Canada I heard the term "red tories" for the first time. As a liberal progressive I found this interesting. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Because the Liberals are still Liverals, and the NDP are still NDP. It would appear only the Conservatives are actively seeking to break ties with their past.


Just because they changed the name? That's really shallow reasoning. CCF anybody?


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> Because the Liberals are still Liverals, and the NDP are still NDP. It would appear only the Conservatives are actively seeking to break ties with their past.


I have to agree, in part. I believe that everyone who identifies with being a Conservative is under siege and all conservative parties here there and everywhere are trying to rebrand. One only look as far as the GOP in the U.S. to see the tearing apart of what being conservative means. Personally, I see myself as a liberal who leans toward fiscal responsibility.....something the Ontario and, I think, Federal Liberals are not......they are a rebranded NDP. I think I everyone is trying to find the seam that will get them in power, but a brand is more long term and readily identifies the product or company....changing and mixing your brand can be a dangerous business, for one thing you can get lost in where you've been as your present is not your past and your past is not your future.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I have to agree, in part. I believe that everyone who identifies with being a Conservative is under siege and all conservative parties here there and everywhere are trying to rebrand. One only look as far as the GOP in the U.S. to see the tearing apart of what being conservative means. Personally, I see myself as a liberal who leans toward fiscal responsibility.....something the Ontario and, I think, Federal Liberals are not......they are a rebranded NDP. I think I everyone is trying to find the seam that will get them in power, but a brand is more long term and readily identifies the product or company....changing and mixing your brand can be a dangerous business, for one thing you can get lost in where you've been as your present is not your past and your past is not your future.


Bill Davis was no fiscal conservative and Notley is more like Ed Broadbent than Jack Layton. Katheen Wynne is a spendthrift compared to David Peterson. There is no brand.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Just because they changed the name?


Precisely. And why I asked my question about being hung up on names.

Of course, the question goes unanswered...


----------



## Rps

Where to start in Canada this week? Things are so weird here that after Tuesday even the calendar states W T F .


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

John Robson: Justin Trudeau and Bill Morneau are adopting the same bad habits as former kings



> How much does Finance Minister Bill Morneau worry about King James II? Not nearly enough, I fear.
> 
> It might seem an odd preoccupation. But the Liberals are following in some unsavory Stuart monarch footprints including, as my colleague John Ivison just noted, not just raising the tax on booze in their spring budget, but having the tax increase automatically from now on at the rate of inflation without having to answer to those of us who buy it via the MPs we elect. It brings back ominous memories for those with long memories.


The bastards are raising taxes on BEER!?!? :yikes: Now I'm really p!$$ed...

STOP Justin Trudeau’s BEER TAX



> The failing Trudeau government is looking for every possible way to steal money from our pockets, so they’re going to raise the price of beer, wine, and spirits – EVERY YEAR.


All the more reason to load up the back of the 'Burb or the saddlebags on the Hawg every time I come back from stateside...


----------



## FeXL

Further on Ontariowe's minimum wage fiasco.

Ontario ready to announce hike in minimum wage and update its labour laws, Wynne says



> Wynne and Labour Minister Kevin Flynn are scheduled to make the announcements Tuesday morning.
> 
> “Now that we have an economy that really is doing so well, and is leading, we can now distribute that well-being a bit better,” she told The Canadian Press in an interview. “I just came back from (Ontario’s) northeast, and there are parts of the province and there are groups within the population who just are not feeling the benefit of the economy doing well.”


Related:

Matthew Lau: Wynne’s Ontario Liberals know a $15 minimum wage will kill thousands of jobs, but they’re doing it anyway



> Matthew Lau: Wynne’s Ontario Liberals know a $15 minimum wage will kill thousands of jobs, but they’re doing it anyway | Financial Post


Damn the torpedoes & full speed ahead!!!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Further on Ontariowe's minimum wage fiasco.


The economy looks great if you're working at Queen's Park and living in Rosedale.


----------



## SINC

Liberals are slowly awaking to the farce of sunny ways.

Federal Liberal members in eastern Quebec quit party to join NDP - Montreal - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The economy looks great if you're working at Queen's Park and living in Rosedale.


_Hey! How about looking at some actual, y'know, data rather than listen to the rants of the neoliberal disciples?_

*'Boosting the economy from the bottom up': Why minimum wage hikes are a good thing*
Critics of Ontario's recently announced move to raise the province's minimum wage to $15 an hour say it will hurt businesses and lead to job losses. But an analysis of more than seven decades of data out of the U.S. suggests the opposite is more likely to happen.

On Tuesday, Premier Kathleen Wynne announced that the minimum wage will rise to $14 an hour in 2018 and $15 in 2019, which prompted howls of protest on behalf of businesses.

How Ontario's minimum wage hike may impact the economy
The Canadian Federation of Independent Business says that small businesses will be forced to cut staffing as a result, and the Ontario Chamber of Commerce warns that the move will discourage investment from corporations, which grows the economy for everyone.

But a recent analysis from the Washington-based National Employment Law Project (NELP) says that more often than not, minimum wage hikes create far more jobs than they kill, about 12 months down the line.

"The negative impact on jobs is unlikely to be negative overall," 

** * **​
Lathrop and others took official government data from between 1938 and 2009 — a period in which the U.S. hiked the federal minimum wage 22 times, from 25 cents to $7.25 an hour.

Rather than killing jobs, the analysis found that 68 per cent of the time, the employment rate was higher 12 months after the wage hike than it was before.

There's "no correlation between federal minimum wage increases and lower employment levels,"

(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

CM, do you know how many people are affected by the federal minimum wage? If you did, you wouldn't put much stock in this "study."

The part that made me laugh the hardest:



> "You get very poor productivity when you can coast on the fumes of just hiring cheap labour," Yalnizyan said. "Raise the cost of labour and you'll suddenly see businesses trying to do more with less."


In other words, businesses will work the asses off the remaining workers they can afford, and then quickly replace those workers as automation becomes more affordable by comparison.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> Where to start in Canada this week? Things are so weird here that after Tuesday even the calendar states W T F .


Good one!


----------



## FeXL

Have you wilfully ignored or merely missed everything I've posted on the derogatory effects of $15/hr minimum wages? 



CubaMark said:


> Hey! How about looking at some actual, y'know, data rather than listen to the rants of the neoliberal disciples?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Have you wilfully ignored or merely missed everything I've posted on the derogatory effects of $15/hr minimum wages?



Why should anyone care what you post? You don't show much respect for what others post. And you certainly choose your own "facts."


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!! (And these pigs want to run Canada)

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ve-leadership-voting-process/article35199810/


----------



## SINC

If it isn't FU again.


----------



## Rps

FUXL said:


> Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!! (And these pigs want to run Canada)
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ve-leadership-voting-process/article35199810/


First, their voting method was indeed flawed, but not for scandalous reasons as you imply. Second, some discourse on why you think this article supports your contention would be nice.......or did you actually read it?


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## FeXL

<sniff> Pot, kettle...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why should anyone care what you post?


I give posts the respect they deserve. Getting none? Try harder...



Freddie_Biff said:


> You don't show much respect for what others post.


Anytime you wish to dispute any facts I post, feel free. Any topic, any time...



Freddie_Biff said:


> And you certainly choose your own "facts."


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> First, their voting method was indeed flawed, but not for scandalous reasons as you imply. Second, some discourse on why you think this article supports your contention would be nice.......or did you actually read it?


He never read his own sources posting under his previous ID... why start now?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Brian Jean, blah, blah...


They're not merging with the Progressive Conservatives. The PCs are not merging with Wild Rose. They're forming a new party.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> They're not merging with the Progressive Conservatives. The PCs are not merging with Wild Rose. They're forming a new party.



Yup, you keep telling yourself that, mate. They're merging to form a new party. Perhaps you have an alternative definition for the word "merge."


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup, you keep telling yourself that, mate. They're merging to form a new party. Perhaps you have an alternative definition for the word "merge."


There's a difference between merging with an existing entity and forming a new party. The Wild Rose defectors were merging with the PC Party. Big difference to supporters of Wild Rose. The name of the party that flattens the NDP in the next election probably doesn't matter much to NDP supporters.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Have you wilfully ignored or merely missed everything I've posted on the derogatory effects of $15/hr minimum wages?


I take everything you post with the same degree of credulity. _Make of that what you will _:lmao:

Meanwhile, here's a short both-sides-of-the-argument article:

*Will a $15 minimum wage be good for Ontario? Two experts debate* - CBC News | Opinion


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I take everything you post with the same degree of credulity. _Make of that what you will _:lmao:
> 
> Meanwhile, here's a short both-sides-of-the-argument article:
> 
> *Will a $15 minimum wage be good for Ontario? Two experts debate* - CBC News | Opinion


You can't build your business by offering wage increases to workers. In the age of Amazon, most of the money will get flushed out of the country. Nice try though.


----------



## FeXL

I don't need two experts mentally masturbating on CBC to confirm or deny what's already been tested & proven in Seattle, among other locations.



CubaMark said:


> Meanwhile, here's a short both-sides-of-the-argument article


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

John Robson: The Pope is a lucky man. Not everyone gets a chance to be lectured on moral matters by Canada’s prime minister



> Pope Francis is wiser, better and presumably grateful now that Justin Trudeau has bestowed a visit upon him. At least so I gather from the Canadian media coverage.
> 
> Before they even met Monday, I read much commentary about what our prime minister would tell the Pope, including calling him on the carpet over Canada’s legacy of residential schools. It struck me as odd that a congregant in a great, venerable and hierarchical faith would meet with its head in order not to learn but to instruct, to preach the sermon not listen to it. But apparently, I’m the weirdo.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Boeing said some things critical of Bombardier's taxpayer funded corporate welfare. Wah...

Defence minister says Boeing’s complaint about Bombardier means it’s no longer a ‘trusted partner’



> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan suggested Wednesday that Boeing, the U.S. aerospace firm from whom the government is considering purchasing billions of dollars worth of fighter jets, can no longer be considered a trusted partner. And though he stopped short of cancelling the Liberal government’s plan to purchase 18 Super Hornet fighters from Boeing, Sajjan said company has damaged its relationship with Canada.
> 
> Boeing has complained to the U.S. government that Canadian aerospace firm Bombardier is receiving subsidies, allowing it to sell its C-Series aircraft at below-market prices.


Related:

Canada Continues to Threaten Boeing Order



> Canada's defense minister repeated a threat Wednesday to cancel the purchase of 18 fighter jets from Boeing Co. because of the company's trade complaint against Canadian plane maker Bombardier.
> 
> Harjit Sajjan said Boeing's action against Bombardier is "unfounded" and not the behavior of a "trusted partner." He said buying the Super Hornet fighter jets "requires a trusted industry partner."
> 
> Sajjan urged Boeing to withdraw the complaint in a speech. Canada's foreign minister has also threatened to block the order.
> 
> "Our government - and I stress this - our government is disappointed in the action of one of our leading industry partners," he said.


Boeing, tell 'em to get stuffed. You called a spade a spade, not an f'ing shovel. As much as I'd like to pick up a dozen & a half Superhornets, they need you more than you need them.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

More corporate welfare. Guaranteed returns on infrastructure jobs? Once gain, the gov't has no business being in business.

Documents raise new questions about taxpayer risk in Liberal infrastructure bank



> Federal investments doled out through the government’s new infrastructure financing agency may be used to ensure a financial return to private investors if a project fails to generate enough revenues, documents show.
> 
> The revenues attached to projects financed through the soon-to-be-created infrastructure bank are key to the government’s plan to leverage private capital to pay for public roads, bridges and transit systems.
> 
> What investors have recently been told — and what the finance minister was told late last year — is that if revenues fall short of estimates, federal investments through the bank would act as a revenue floor to help make a project commercially viable.


----------



## SINC

Can't argue with this. Too perfect!


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Can't argue with this. Too perfect!


Beautimous!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s casual response to terrorism



> “Tough and tragic news over the weekend in London, in the wake of the attack in Manchester, what goes through your mind when you think of keeping Canada safe?” asked host Ryan Seacrest.
> 
> It shouldn’t have been a tough question, and yet, Trudeau appeared to have trouble answering.
> 
> “There’s all sorts of different things we need to do,” said Trudeau, listing examples including “investing in safety, security, police officers and *investigative national security stuff.*”


M'bold.

Investigative national security _stuff_?

First off, how prime ministerial that sounds. They teach you that in ski school or in substitute drama teacher class, Juthdin? Take another hit from the bong. 'Ere...

Second, after sounding like a kindergartner, just like political solutions the world over everything he notes is to be applied after the fact, just like a band-aid on a boo-boo. Somebody just got their head cut off? Bring more cops in! Run over by a cube van? More security! Concert goers blown to bits? Well, obviously we need more safety!

WTF does that even mean? At least he didn't list tea candles & coloured lights on the HoP...

Here's a thought: How's about we avoid the tragedy in the first GD place, huh?! 

I know! Mind-blowing stuff!!! Prog heads exploding everywhere!!!

Related:

Make no mistake, terror is in Canada 



> Rehab Dughmosh is currently in custody facing seven charges including two counts of assault with a weapon.
> 
> The 32-year-old mother of two allegedly entered a Canadian Tire store and, according to what sources told the Sun, became agitated and threatened to kill “white people” to avenge bombings in Syria.
> 
> “I’m here for Syria. I’m going to kill everybody,” the woman reportedly screamed. “I want to kill all you white people. I’m from ISIS. I’m from Syria,” she allegedly told shocked onlookers.


----------



## Rps

That would be the woman with psychiatric issues and not the norm. But to be sure they are here and will act in the future. Again, to be free we must give up some of our freedom, to get privacy we have to relinquish some, to be safe we must be guarded, to be guarded we must be open....strange times indeed FeXL


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> That would be the woman with psychiatric issues and not the norm.


I remain to be convinced...


----------



## FeXL

Thank you Juthdin & Red Rachel!!!

Tax Freedom Day ... this year, one day later



> This year Canadians are working just a little bit longer to pay off their taxes. Tax Freedom Day falls day later than it did in 2016.
> 
> The national tax burden has gone up, according to the Fraser Institute.
> 
> ...
> 
> June 9th - more than five months into the year - is the day Canadians finally get to keep their own money. Last year it was June 8th.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau failing to deliver on transparency promise, information czar says



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is failing to deliver on his promise of a government that’s open by default, the federal information czar says.
> 
> The law that’s intended to give Canadians access to government files is being used instead as a shield against transparency, information commissioner Suzanne Legault said in her annual report tabled Thursday.
> 
> Legault said her investigations reveal the Access to Information Act is failing to foster accountability and trust.


Yeah, colour me not surprised...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I remain to be convinced...


I believe I can state, with quite a lot of certainty, that you can never be convinced of anything that runs counter to your beliefs, regardless of the evidence presented.


----------



## Macfury

It would be an interesting test. Why don't you present some convincing evidence of something for a change--instead of linking to an opinion column?



CubaMark said:


> I believe I can state, with quite a lot of certainty, that you can never be convinced of anything that runs counter to your beliefs, regardless of the evidence presented.


----------



## FeXL

When the evidence changes, so does my opinion. This is in direct opposition to Progs like you who simply become more firmly entrenched in your religion...



CubaMark said:


> I believe I can state, with quite a lot of certainty, that you can never be convinced of anything that runs counter to your beliefs, regardless of the evidence presented.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> I believe I can state, with quite a lot of certainty, that you can never be convinced of anything that runs counter to your beliefs, regardless of the evidence presented.



Just call it confirmation bias, Mark. People believe what they want to believe.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Just call it confirmation bias, Mark. People believe what they want to believe.


We can test that hypothesis if you provide a strong argument backed by evidence one of these days. A meme won't cut it!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> We can test that hypothesis if you provide a strong argument backed by evidence one of these days. A meme won't cut it!




What, test it by confirming your own predetermined bias? I could present the most convincing argument in the world and you would question it simply because I presented it. Are you saying you DON'T have your own confirmation bias?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> What, test it by confirming your own predetermined bias? I could present the most convincing argument in the world and you would question it simply because I presented it. Are you saying you DON'T have your own confirmation bias?


I have a confirmation bias that can be overcome by a strong argument. It's tested by logic and nothing else.

Beej has argued me into a position where I was forced to change my opinion on a couple of occasions. But he actually puts work into his debate presentations.


----------



## FeXL

Actually, what it's called is "Inability by Progs to Present An Argument Based On Fact, Not Fiction, Logical Fallacy, Ad Hominem Attacks, Distraction or Obfuscation".

If you're not familiar with the terminology, I know for a fact you're familiar with the technique...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Just call it confirmation bias, Mark. People believe what they want to believe.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Actually, what it's called is "Inability by Progs to Present An Argument Based On Fact, Not Fiction, Logical Fallacy, Ad Hominem Attacks, Distraction or Obfuscation".
> 
> 
> 
> If you're not familiar with the terminology, I know for a fact you're familiar with the technique...



See, that's the funny thing. As sure of your argumentative skills as you seem to he think you are, you haven't been able to convince me of a damn thing so far. So clearly, presenting a "good" argument doesn't help much when the other person just does not share your world view. I accepted this long ago, which is why I don't bother trying to persuade certain people any more.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> See, that's the funny thing. As sure of your argumentative skills as you seem to he think you are, you haven't been able to convince me of a damn thing so far. So clearly, presenting a "good" argument doesn't help much when the other person just does not share your world view. I accepted this long ago, which is why I don't bother trying to persuade certain people any more.


That's because you lash out and then withdraw from EhMac when you reach a state of cognitive dissonance. You can never be convinced of anything if you run away.


----------



## FeXL

I can lead a horse to water. That's where it ends.

It's you Progs who have the issue with confirmation bias...



Freddie_Biff said:


> See, that's the funny thing. As sure of your argumentative skills as you seem to he think you are, you haven't been able to convince me of a damn thing so far.


My world view doesn't affect the facts, the empirical evidence, of an argument. Neither should it yours. But it does, as with most Progs...



Freddie_Biff said:


> So clearly, presenting a "good" argument doesn't help much when the other person just does not share your world view.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> I can lead a horse to water. That's where it ends.
> 
> 
> 
> It's you Progs who have the issue with confirmation bias...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My world view doesn't affect the facts, the empirical evidence, of an argument. Neither should it yours. But it does, as with most Progs...



Why do you keep dividing the world into Progs and not-Progs? It seems to be a very simple-minded and naive division based on your own prejudices. It certainly is not reflective of an open minded or advanced intellect. It's about as intelligent as the term *******. Or snowflake.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Why do you keep dividing the world into Progs and not-Progs? It seems to be a very simple-minded and naive division based on your own prejudices. It certainly is not reflective of an open minded or advanced intellect. It's about as intelligent as the term *******. Or snowflake.


I don't mind being on the side of the "open minded", reflective, compassionate, responsible, understanding, advanced intellectual progressive group of people, Frank. Come over and play in our sand box and have some authentic and peaceful fun. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

I would say dividing the world into progs and non-progs is a very accurate and effective way of looking at the world.




Freddie_Biff said:


> Why do you keep dividing the world into Progs and not-Progs? It seems to be a very simple-minded and naive division based on your own prejudices.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I would say dividing the world into progs and non-progs is a very accurate and effective way of looking at the world.


Sadly, all too true, Macfury. Progressives look up to see the stars .............. and non-progressives look down to see the ground under their feet. 

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?" - Robert Browning 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

That's just what I want you to believe, Dr. G.



Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, all too true, Macfury. Progressives look up to see the stars .............. and non-progressives look down to see the ground under their feet.
> 
> "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?" - Robert Browning
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> I don't mind being on the side of the "open minded", reflective, compassionate, responsible, understanding, advanced intellectual progressive group of people, Frank. Come over and play in our sand box and have some authentic and peaceful fun. Paix, mon ami.



I just really reject the notion of labelling people as somehow healthy. Healthy for whom? All pigeon-holing does is make people defensive. There are great ideas and **** ideas in both progressive and conservative camps, in religious and atheistic camps, in Islamic and a Christian and Jewish groups. People are people, and labelling each other other is stupid and simplistic.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I would say dividing the world into progs and non-progs is a very accurate and effective way of looking at the world.



Yes, I can believe you would.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That's just what I want you to believe, Dr. G.


Good to know, Macfury. I knew that deep down under that libertarian cloak lies the heart of a decent and caring person. Glad to call you my friend. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> I just really reject the notion of labelling people as somehow healthy. Healthy for whom? All pigeon-holing does is make people defensive. There are great ideas and **** ideas in both progressive and conservative camps, in religious and atheistic camps, in Islamic and a Christian and Jewish groups. People are people, and labelling each other other is stupid and simplistic.


Excellent and valid points, Frank. Glad to be able to call you a friend as well. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I just really reject the notion of labelling people as somehow healthy. Healthy for whom? All pigeon-holing does is make people defensive. There are great ideas and **** ideas in both progressive and conservative camps, in religious and atheistic camps, in Islamic and a Christian and Jewish groups. People are people, and labelling each other other is stupid and simplistic.


I had to laugh out loud when I read that quote. Irony anyone? This from someone who labels people frequently with his favourite word.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> I can lead a horse to water. That's where it ends.
> 
> It's you Progs who have the issue with confirmation bias...
> 
> 
> 
> My world view doesn't affect the facts, the empirical evidence, of an argument. Neither should it yours. But it does, as with most Progs...


Is that because you hold your confirmation bias as a truth? I don't mean this to be a hit FeXL, but bias is everywhere and the lens with which we see the world often colours our view and our view of others.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> Why do you keep dividing the world into Progs and not-Progs? It seems to be a very simple-minded and naive division based on your own prejudices. It certainly is not reflective of an open minded or advanced intellect. It's about as intelligent as the term *******. Or snowflake.


In fact, at times, we are or share many views due to the "self" we are talking about at the time. If one believes that there are many "selves" depending on which self is in conflict of view depends on which label attracts. Remember Frank, you can be "*******" in your liberal views and be liberal in your "red neck " views.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I had to laugh out loud when I read that quote. Irony anyone? This from someone who labels people frequently with his favourite word.



And you don't? Hypocrite much?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> In fact, at times, we are or share many views due to the "self" we are talking about at the time. If one believes that there are many "selves" depending on which self is in conflict of view depends on which label attracts. Remember Frank, you can be "*******" in your liberal views and be liberal in your "red neck " views.



Yeah, you might have to explain that one a bit more.


----------



## FeXL

Because there are Progressives & Non-progressives in this world we live in. Same as there are ******** & Snowflakes. And a veritable plethora of other descriptors & categories.

The use of such words most certainly is not any indicator of close mindedness or a repressed intellect. It's the end product of millions of years of human evolution to categorize, to organize by trait. It's hard-wired into us.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why do you keep dividing the world into Progs and not-Progs? It seems to be a very simple-minded and naive division based on your own prejudices. It certainly is not reflective of an open minded or advanced intellect. It's about as intelligent as the term *******. Or snowflake.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yeah, you might have to explain that one a bit more.


It comes down to do you believe that a person is a single self or many?


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> It comes down to do you believe that a person is a single self or many?


Most of our politicians seem to have at least two faces. Whether that is representative of the general population is another question entirely.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Is that because you hold your confirmation bias as a truth? I don't mean this to be a hit FeXL, but bias is everywhere and the lens with which we see the world often colours our view and our view of others.


Because I'm confident my confirmation bias has a small footprint. I can't think of any people I know who don't possess even a small confirmation bias but I do know a number who I would consider having a much smaller one than others. I would say that they, like myself, have our judgements affected less by confirmation bias than by empirical evidence, hard facts.

Someone wants to sway my opinion all they need to do is present an argument with facts. It's that easy (& that difficult!). As with MF, Beej _makes_ me think. 

On the opposite side of that same coin there have been & are now people on these boards whose lives are not merely clouded but ruled by confirmation bias, going so far as to be absolutely beyond reach with any form of argument, logic or fact. 

"_Some men cannot be reached._" 

I have actually discussed this particular topic in the past with members of these boards via email: How can X be so obviously an otherwise intelligent person and yet be so...thick? The term that came up was total ideologue.

As a matter of interest, I just did a quick online search using "ideology & confirmation bias" & ran across the following quote from this article:



> The key question is what are our ideologies based in. Generally speaking, the right bases its ideology if not in religion, in classical thought. The left on the other hand bases their ideology in a blend of personal experience and perception, interpretations of science that may or may not be actually scientific, and politics. This is where confirmation bias become incredibly important. *When you have a feedback loop in your ideological formation like the left do, confirmation bias can change the entire landscape of your thinking.*


M'bold.

I found that an interesting observation, not because it fits my particular confirmation bias but because another part of the quote—"interpretations of science that...may not be actually scientific", describes precisely a number of the members on these boards & the difficulty they have dealing with empirical evidence when presented to them.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> In fact, at times, we are or share many views due to the "self" we are talking about at the time. If one believes that there are many "selves" depending on which self is in conflict of view depends on which label attracts. Remember Frank, you can be "*******" in your liberal views and be liberal in your "red neck " views.


I don't really suffer much from this condition.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I don't really suffer much from this condition.


Really? List the selves you are then tell me this, such as: you are male, maybe a white male, are you married, a father, a lover, an employee or an employer, a son... the list goes on. Each of these has expectations both of ourselves and society........so any of the above not influence you somehow?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Because there are Progressives & Non-progressives in this world we live in. Same as there are ******** & Snowflakes. And a veritable plethora of other descriptors & categories.
> 
> 
> 
> The use of such words most certainly is not any indicator of close mindedness or a repressed intellect. It's the end product of millions of years of human evolution to categorize, to organize by trait. It's hard-wired into us.



It says more about you than the people you are labelling, to be honest. No offense.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> It comes down to do you believe that a person is a single self or many?



I think I see where you're going with this. Good point, Rps. Our "self" depends often on the company we keep.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Really? List the selves you are then tell me this, such as: you are male, maybe a white male, are you married, a father, a lover, an employee or an employer, a son... the list goes on. Each of these has expectations both of ourselves and society........so any of the above not influence you somehow?


All of these roles are executed through the lens of my core beliefs.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> All of these roles are executed through the lens of my core beliefs.


I think one informs the other.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> And you don't? Hypocrite much?


Never used your favourite word to describe any member here. It seems hypocrisy reigns in your realm.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Never used your favourite word to describe any member here. It seems hypocrisy reigns in your realm.



Sure, Don. It's like you intentionally can't see the trees for the forest. You sure do get hung up on cuss words, but you fail to notice that a tone can be far more offensive. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.


----------



## Macfury

You're overplaying the "bully" card, Freddie. You're an adult and this ain't grade school.


----------



## FeXL

'Cause tone is such a tangible thing on an online forum...



Freddie_Biff said:


> ...but you fail to notice that a tone can be far more offensive..


----------



## FeXL

Why, yes. Yes, it does. 

At the risk of labelling myself, it says that I'm normal. It says that my ancestors survived because they were able to compartmentalize threats from non-threats, foodstuffs from poisons, water from horse p!$$, intelligence from stupidity.

How the hell you managed to get here is an issue fraught with complexities far beyond my ken. 

I'm guessing it all started in the shallow end of the gene pool, though...



Freddie_Biff said:


> It says more about you than the people you are labelling, to be honest.


----------



## CubaMark

*Vancouver adopts living wage of $20.62*

Janitors and security guards will be among the contracted workers to the city, park board and Vancouver Police Department who will get paid more in wages and benefits now that all three civic agencies have been certified as so-called “living wage” employers.

The certification, which was granted by the Living Wage for Families Campaign, means all workers contracted by the agencies will be guaranteed a living wage of $20.62 in wages and benefits. That boost in pay and benefits translates to a $600,000 annual investment from the city and park board, and another $40,000 from the police department.

All city employees already earn a living wage.

“We’ve identified that about 70 per cent of the contracts that we issue that are service-related will now be in scope for this going forward,” said Nick Kassam, the city’s chief procurement officer. He noted the city spends about $300 million annually on contracted goods and services. “So while [the $600,000 increase] may not be a significant amount, it does make an impact on those vulnerable sectors.”

The Living Wage for Families Campaign, which is based in Vancouver, calculates a living wage based on the basic expenses of food, clothing, rental housing, childcare, transportation and small savings to cover illness or emergencies for a two-parent family with two children in Metro Vancouver.

The $20.62 includes benefits, so a person may get paid $17 or $18 an hour before benefits kick in to equal the $20.62. 

(Vancouver Courier)​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Vancouver adopts living wage of $20.62*
> 
> Janitors and security guards will be among the contracted workers to the city, park board and Vancouver Police Department who will get paid more in wages and benefits now that all three civic agencies have been certified as so-called “living wage” employers.​




That's a shame--grunt work royalty supported by the taxpayer.​


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Sure, Don. It's like you intentionally can't see the trees for the forest. You sure do get hung up on cuss words, but you fail to notice that a tone can be far more offensive. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.



Sorry to disappoint you, Frank, but tones are sounds. Have never heard one from you here, nor used one either. Looks like your boat's landlocked.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

More corporate welfare that could actually be used for something useful in our own country.

ELITES: Trudeau Gives $36.2 Million In Taxpayer Money To Formula 1 Race



> *The federal government is running massive budget deficits. Our country has serious problems, including underfunded infrastructure, poverty, and millions of forgotten citizens.*
> 
> So, what does our “wise” federal leadership decide to spend $36.2 million of our money on?
> 
> *A Formula 1 race.*


Yeah, emphasis from the link.

More:



> It’s absurd that taxpayer money would go to a Formula 1 race. *Formula 1 is owned by Liberty Media, a massive company that reported revenue of $4.8 billion in 2015.*


That's my bold.

If F1 wants corporate sponsorship in order to stay in Canada, they should have gone to a local business. Say, Bombardier.

Oh, wait...


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> More corporate welfare that could actually be used for something useful in our own country.
> 
> ELITES: Trudeau Gives $36.2 Million In Taxpayer Money To Formula 1 Race
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, emphasis from the link.
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> That's my bold.
> 
> If F1 wants corporate sponsorship in order to stay in Canada, they should have gone to a local business. Say, Bombardier.
> 
> Oh, wait...


Well the number is a little off FeXL, it is more like $100 million when you factor in the Fed, Prov, and City money......which by the way comes out of whose pocket? Yeah, the tax payer. I agree with promotion money but this is clearly an a waste. Maybe the Feds can give MLSE an extra $36 M to get the Stanley Cup.


----------



## FUXL

*Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!*

WWJD?
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-use-of-tory-membership-list/article35283429/


----------



## Macfury

Ouch! The spelling!


----------



## FeXL

See, Freddie? This is how a real Progressive gov't treats its civil servants.

Ontario offers public servants ‘unprecedented’ contract extensions, 7.5-per-cent raises over 4 years



> Ontario is offering public servants a four-year contract extension with 7.5-per-cent raises, which, if ratified, would avoid possibly contentious bargaining before the next provincial election.


Red Rachel's a piker...


----------



## FeXL

Why? Thought Juthdin had his finger on the pulse...

‘Plan ahead and plan early’ for Canada Day; expect delays due to security screening



> With an anticipated half-million visitors to Ottawa for Canada Day 2017, the Police Chief and the Mayor are urging everyone to be ready for big crowds, and long waits to get on to Parliament Hill.
> 
> The RCMP will be screening anyone who wants to get on the Hill for the show this year. Security tents will be set up along Wellington Street, where officers will be checking backpacks and other belongings.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> See, Freddie? This is how a real Progressive gov't treats its civil servants.
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario offers public servants ‘unprecedented’ contract extensions, 7.5-per-cent raises over 4 years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red Rachel's a piker...



Very nice. I'll survive in the meantime, thanks. Even without increases, I probably make more than you, so I'm not too worried.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Very nice. I'll survive in the meantime, thanks. Even without increases, I probably make more than you, so I'm not too worried.


Nice easy work, too!


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Ontario offers public servants ‘unprecedented’ contract extensions, 7.5-per-cent raises over 4 years


A raise at or below expected inflation does not sound overly generous. That said, it is frustrating how infrequently the focus is on the starting point. Is the current level too high, too low, or about right? This should regularly be studied and publicly reported by governments well ahead of negotiations. I am sure the work is often there, but they let the focus shift to the change...the last 5-10% of total cost.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Nice easy work, too!



Oh yeah, a walk in the park. I'll bet you couldn't handle it though. Takes a special kind of snowflake.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> A raise at or below expected inflation does not sound overly generous. That said, it is frustrating how infrequently the focus is on the starting point. Is the current level too high, too low, or about right? This should regularly be studied and publicly reported by governments well ahead of negotiations. I am sure the work is often there, but they let the focus shift to the change...the last 5-10% of total cost.



For what it's worth, teacher salaries are about $50K to start in Alberta and rise to about $100K with ten years experience and six years education. I'd call that respectable, but inflation has been pretty steady in Alberta as well. How do you perceive that compares to other public and private sector wages? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> For what it's worth, teacher salaries are about $50K to start in Alberta and rise to about $100K with ten years experience and six years education. I'd call that respectable, but inflation has been pretty steady in Alberta as well. How do you perceive that compares to other public and private sector wages?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you need a master's degree to get to the $100k level?


----------



## Macfury

It rates way over most provinces and is largely the result of bad faith bargaining by politicians on behalf of taxpayers.



Freddie_Biff said:


> For what it's worth, teacher salaries are about $50K to start in Alberta and rise to about $100K with ten years experience and six years education. I'd call that respectable, but inflation has been pretty steady in Alberta as well. How do you perceive that compares to other public and private sector wages?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Oh yeah, a walk in the park. I'll bet you couldn't handle it though. Takes a special kind of snowflake.


Enjoy your two-month vacation, snowflake!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> Do you need a master's degree to get to the $100k level?



Nope. Here it goes by years of education, measured in completed years. For example, I have a number of courses extra to my B Ed degree so I have 5 years of teacher education instead of 4. Max is 6.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It rates way over most provinces and is largely the result of bad faith bargaining by politicians on behalf of taxpayers.



Perhaps that's why I'm not complaining, despite some people's suggestion that I should be.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Nope. Here it goes by years of education, measured in completed years. For example, I have a number of courses extra to my B Ed degree so I have 5 years of teacher education instead of 4. Max is 6.


In NL, you would need 12 years of full-time teaching, a Master's degree and 2-4 extra grad courses before you would get near the $90,000+ level.


----------



## FeXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> Even without increases, I probably make more than you, so I'm not too worried.


Is there a point to this p!$$ing contest? Are we going to be measuring dicks next?

The point is, Freddie, as I've noted before, Red Rachel, your great Prog hope, is going to have you making less cash than you were under those despicable <spit> Conservatives. 

You bought a pig in a poke, my friend. In two years when she gets her ass handed to her by the right and it comes time to straighten out her debt & deficit, you can bet your sweet patootie that raise you so covet is going to disappear in interest payments to service the debt.

The only relief you can hope for is that her carbon tax gets repealed.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps that's why I'm not complaining, despite some people's suggestion that I should be.


Good attitude!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Is there a point to this p!$$ing contest? Are we going to be measuring dicks next?
> 
> 
> 
> The point is, Freddie, as I've noted before, Red Rachel, your great Prog hope, is going to have you making less cash than you were under those despicable <spit> Conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> You bought a pig in a poke, my friend. In two years when she gets her ass handed to her by the right and it comes time to straighten out her debt & deficit, you can bet your sweet patootie that raise you so covet is going to disappear in interest payments to service the debt.
> 
> 
> 
> The only relief you can hope for is that her carbon tax gets repealed.



Wrong again. Not less, just not more. That's what a wage freeze is. It's sucks in terms of the cost of living but things could be much worse.

So now that I've been up front, what do people in your line of work tend to earn?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Good attitude!



Exactly. A few short years ago, people were making big six figure incomes in the oil and gas industry. Not so much anymore. Some work for half of what they used to make doing the same job, others can't find work, others have moved on. Teaching pays reasonably well but also has much better job security. We all make our choices and live with them.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

Hate crimes against Muslims in Canada up 60%, StatsCan reports - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Exactly. A few short years ago, people were making big six figure incomes in the oil and gas industry. Not so much anymore. Some work for half of what they used to make doing the same job, others can't find work, others have moved on. Teaching pays reasonably well but also has much better job security. We all make our choices and live with them.


This is what people with longer memories have against pay packages for civil servants. At one point, excellent security and benefits were supposed to make up for lower wages.


----------



## FeXL

Confused by maths again?

_You're_ wrong. Significantly less. Why? Your wage freeze doesn't insulate you against added costs. Costs passed on to you by the NDP. Rachel's carbon tax affecting nearly everything you purchase. Rachel's $15/hr minimum wages increasing costs of businesses province-wide, who then pass them on to you. Rachel's Bill 6 increasing costs on farms, who then pass them on to you. Among others. The PC's would never have introduced any of the above.

Throw in a 2% percent annual inflation rate and you're well into 4 figures in the hole every single year of her reign.

You're going to walk out of Red Rachel's term with far less cash in your pocket (on the order of 5 figures) than if the Conservatives would have won. Period. I hope that Alberta's short lived experiment with socialism has opened your eyes, but somehow I doubt it.

Welcome to the Progressive concept of Other People's Money. Namely, yours...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Wrong again. Not less, just not more. That's what a wage freeze is. It's sucks in terms of the cost of living but things could be much worse.


Lots... :greedy:



Freddie_Biff said:


> So now that I've been up front, what do people in your line of work tend to earn?


----------



## Rps

Frank the issue with teaching is that it is market predicated, and it is also cyclical. When times are good people are having babies, babies become students, students need teachers. When times are bad people move....no students, no need for teachers. Universities then have a decline in Ed enrollment....fewer teachers. Schools close and amalgamate...... this cycle is currently going on in Ontario and no doubt Alberta. Money is cheap right now, but if the BoC raise rates the cost of debt out of your dollar rises.....that cost is a growth killer and costs will be passed along to the consumers.....so ..........


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Frank the issue with teaching is that it is market predicated, and it is also cyclical. When times are good people are having babies, babies become students, students need teachers. When times are bad people move....no students, no need for teachers. Universities then have a decline in Ed enrollment....fewer teachers. Schools close and amalgamate...... this cycle is currently going on in Ontario and no doubt Alberta. Money is cheap right now, but if the BoC raise rates the cost of debt out of your dollar rises.....that cost is a growth killer and costs will be passed along to the consumers.....so ..........



Well, it's been a hell of a lot more stable than other employment I can think of, once you're continuous that is. Teaching security was anything but stable during the Klein years. Ed Stelmach was very good to us however. I know the economy has cycles, but people always need schools just like they always need to eat. It has been a very good career for me.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Confused by maths again?
> 
> 
> 
> _You're_ wrong. Significantly less. Why? Your wage freeze doesn't insulate you against added costs. Costs passed on to you by the NDP. Rachel's carbon tax affecting nearly everything you purchase. Rachel's $15/hr minimum wages increasing costs of businesses province-wide, who then pass them on to you. Rachel's Bill 6 increasing costs on farms, who then pass them on to you. Among others. The PC's would never have introduced any of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> Throw in a 2% percent annual inflation rate and you're well into 4 figures in the hole every single year of her reign.
> 
> 
> 
> You're going to walk out of Red Rachel's term with far less cash in your pocket (on the order of 5 figures) than if the Conservatives would have won. Period. I hope that Alberta's short lived experiment with socialism has opened your eyes, but somehow I doubt it.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the Progressive concept of Other People's Money. Namely, yours...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots... :greedy:



Seems to bother you more than it does me, actually. So what line of work are you in, Mr. Mysterious? What are starting wages and too wages like? What kinds of wage increases have you seen in the last ten years? Are you afraid to say?


----------



## FeXL

I'm merely pointing out your hypocrisy.

You've p!$$ed & moaned on these boards, _ad nauseam_, about how teachers got screwed over by Klein. Red Rachel is giving it to you as hard, if not harder, than Klein ever did & you don't seem to mind when it should bother you just as much, if not more. Is it because it's "hidden", as opposed to Ralph's direct approach?

Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Seems to bother you more than it does me, actually.


Once again, my line of work is a matter of public record on these boards.

Starting wages were $0.00/hr. I have no idea WTH "too wages" are. In the last 10 years I have seen increases of as much as 200%.

Are you any smarter now?



Freddie_Biff said:


> So what line of work are you in, Mr. Mysterious? What are starting wages and too wages like? What kinds of wage increases have you seen in the last ten years? Are you afraid to say?


----------



## Rps

Frank, I'm glad things have work d out well for you....there are many others , music and arts teachers included, who were not so lucky.


----------



## CubaMark

*The Birth of Canada's Armed, Anti-Islamic 'Patriot' Group*










*They call themselves the Three Percent. They’re armed, say they’re ready for war on Canadian soil, and experts say they are dangerous.*

In front of Calgary City Hall, a couple dozen of them stood shoulder-to-shoulder in an attempt to make an unbreakable human wall. Each of them wore a uniform consisting of a black T-shirt emblazoned with a Roman helmet—a look that wouldn't be out of place in a biker gang. It was a line filled with mostly men, and a few women, who you wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with in a bar. All of them were white.

Some of the III% (the "three percent," as they call themselves) brought shock canes—a non-lethal weapon that can deliver up to a million volts to the person hit—while others had billy clubs or regular old canes. On many of the shirts was the III%'s credo, "NSA"—Never Standing Alone. Scattered throughout the rest of the square were small groups overseeing the proceedings from an elevated position, as well as III%er members dressed in plain clothes milling about the crowd gathering "intel" on what they considered to be the day's enemy—Antifa, the anti-fascist group.

* * *

An eight-month VICE Canada investigation into the inner workings of the group has found it to be a tight-knit openly anti-Islamic group that is unique in Canada's far-right ecosystem—one that, as one expert puts it, seems to be a "wholesale lift of an American militia." During VICE Canada's investigation, the group's rhetoric and tactics rapidly escalated from virulently anti-Islam online posturing to IRL monitoring of mosques, live fire paramilitary-style training, claiming to buy land, and plans for creating smoke and flash bombs.

Welling, a key figure in the group, told VICE that he suspects that the Canadian government considers them "domestic terrorists."

(Read more at Vice)​
*Addendum to the above, from the linked article:*

_A study published by Dr. Perry and Ryan Scrivens in 2015 found that in the last 30 years the amount of deaths caused by far-right groups significantly outnumbered lives taken by jihadis within Canada. They also found, at the time of their study, there were over 100 far-right groups in Canada with the majority of the groups existing in Alberta, Quebec, western Ontario, and British Columbia. Another 2015 study, this time conducted in America by the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, found after interviewing 328 law enforcement agencies that 73.8 percent stated that far-right violence was the number one threat in their jurisdiction._​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> A study published by Dr. Perry and Ryan Scrivens in 2015 found that in the last 30 years the amount of deaths caused by far-right groups significantly outnumbered lives taken by jihadis within Canada.


Interesting. How many deaths for each group?


----------



## Beej

> "three percent,"


Facebook:
https://m.facebook.com/pg/Alta3percentSP/about/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=1

Can't say if the Vice piece is accurate or not, other than this being a U.S. import.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Frank, I'm glad things have work d out well for you....there are many others , music and arts teachers included, who were not so lucky.



Yes, I feel for them, Rps. A continuous teaching contract is worth its weight in gold these days. I do consider myself lucky in a great many respects.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> I'm merely pointing out your hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> You've p!$$ed & moaned on these boards, _ad nauseam_, about how teachers got screwed over by Klein. Red Rachel is giving it to you as hard, if not harder, than Klein ever did & you don't seem to mind when it should bother you just as much, if not more. Is it because it's "hidden", as opposed to Ralph's direct approach?
> 
> 
> 
> Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, my line of work is a matter of public record on these boards.
> 
> 
> 
> Starting wages were $0.00/hr. I have no idea WTH "too wages" are. In the last 10 years I have seen increases of as much as 200%.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you any smarter now?



How about some actual numbers, FeXL? Or how about the name of your job, and then we we can look it up? Why so secretive? I've never read what your line of work is. You seem to like to examine everyone else but refuse to let anyone see what cards you're holding.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> In NL, you would need 12 years of full-time teaching, a Master's degree and 2-4 extra grad courses before you would get near the $90,000+ level.



That's a considerably higher hill to climb, Dr. G. What can be disheartening is that even after all that training and looooong apprenticeship period, there are still no guarantees.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's a considerably higher hill to climb, Dr. G. What can be disheartening is that even after all that training and looooong apprenticeship period, there are still no guarantees.


There should be no guarantees!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> There should be no guarantees!



In your world, fine. Replace "guarantee" with "higher degree of security." That's the tradeoff some make when the forego the opportunity to make the big bucks. My oil and gas friends were rolling in the dough not that long ago when I was accepting a wage freeze. Call it planning ahead of you prefer.


----------



## FeXL

It's none of your f'ing business how much money I make, Freddie.

Period.



Freddie_Biff said:


> How about some actual numbers, FeXL?


The name of my job is "Self-Employed". Look to your heart's content. Lemme know what you find.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Or how about the name of your job, and then we we can look it up?


It's not secret. It's on these very boards. At least several times. That you've glossed over this information a number of times is merely further confirmation that you don't pay attention to anything anybody posts.

Your problem, not mine.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why so secretive? I've never read what your line of work is.


Not examining anybody's wages. None of my business. I know roughly what yours are because my lovely bride is a teacher with similar experience & education.

Merely telling you that Red Rachel is screwing you as bad or worse than you perceive Ralph to have done & you're fine with it. I don't need to see your paycheque to tell you that.

Quit dancing around the question: Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative? How do you rationalize that?



Freddie_Biff said:


> You seem to like to examine everyone else but refuse to let anyone see what cards you're holding.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> It's none of your f'ing business how much money I make, Freddie.
> 
> 
> 
> Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The name of my job is "Self-Employed". Look to your heart's content. Lemme know what you find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not secret. It's on these very boards. At least several times. That you've glossed over this information a number of times is merely further confirmation that you don't pay attention to anything anybody posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Your problem, not mine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not examining anybody's wages. None of my business. I know roughly what yours are because my lovely bride is a teacher with similar experience & education.
> 
> 
> 
> Merely telling you that Red Rachel is screwing you as bad or worse than you perceive Ralph to have done & you're fine with it. I don't need to see your paycheque to tell you that.
> 
> 
> 
> Quit dancing around the question: Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative? How do you rationalize that?



Touchy touchy. Clearly this is a sensitive matter for you. I am fine with my income, as I've stated many times, even if you find your "self-employed" income to be wanting. I've never read about your occupation, nor am I inclined to do the research to find out. And no, I definitely do not read most of what you post. So if you don't want to tell, even what you do to be self-employed, that's your choice. You can also stop preaching to me now, you big hypocrite.


----------



## FeXL

Not sensitive at all. It's merely nobody's business, especially on a public board.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Touchy touchy. Clearly this is a sensitive matter for you.


We're not talking about your income. We're talking about how the NDP are screwing you. Like Ralph did.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I am fine with my income, as I've stated many times...


Ain't preaching, Freddie. Just asking a simple question that you've been dodging with every post:

Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?

How does that make me a hypocrite?



Freddie_Biff said:


> You can also stop preaching to me now, you big hypocrite.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Not sensitive at all. It's merely nobody's business, especially on a public board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're not talking about your income. We're talking about how the NDP are screwing you. Like Ralph did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ain't preaching, Freddie. Just asking a simple question that you've been dodging with every post:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?
> 
> 
> 
> How does that make me a hypocrite?



Talk about me dodging questions. You can't even articulate what it is you do for a living. The new collective agreement includes a clause that confirms should the wages of other public sector workers rise, we would as well, something missing from the Redford arrangement. Bit of course you must know that, being the well-researched individual that you claim to be, and being married to a teacher on top of that. Yes, wage freezes are a hardship, but better than not having a job at all, I'm sure you'd agree.


----------



## FeXL

You are dodging the question. Three times now.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Talk about me dodging questions.


Asked, answered.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You can't even articulate what it is you do for a living.


I know. We've already discussed this. Alzheimers? 

And it has nothing, zero, to do with my question.



Freddie_Biff said:


> The new collective agreement includes a clause that confirms should the wages of other public sector workers rise, we would as well, something missing from the Redford arrangement. Bit of course you must know that, being the well-researched individual that you claim to be, and being married to a teacher on top of that. Yes, wage freezes are a hardship, but better than not having a job at all, I'm sure you'd agree.


Once more:

Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> You are dodging the question. Three times now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asked, answered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know. We've already discussed this. Alzheimers?
> 
> 
> 
> And it has nothing, zero, to do with my question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once more:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?



And again you dodge the question. What is your occupation, FeXL, since you seem to think you're in a position to lecture me about my occupation? Let's level the playing field. Answer mine and I'll answer yours.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, you've asked for FeXL's occupation several times and he's answered each time. At this point I think he's just tired of you forgetting.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Freddie, you've asked for FeXL's occupation several times and he's answered each time. At this point I think he's just tired of you forgetting.



So what is it then? He is a hypocrite for telling me I dodge questions.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> So what is it then? He is a hypocrite for telling me I dodge questions.


FeXL has told you several times that he's primarily a photographer. His wife is a teacher.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> FeXL has told you several times that he's primarily a photographer. His wife is a teacher.



Why thank you, Mr. Helper. And no, I do not recall learning that before. And yes, I still support Red Rachel.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> FeXL has told you several times that he's primarily a photographer. His wife is a teacher.


You took all the fun out of it. I was waiting to see who would first get so dizzy he would have to jump off the Merry-go-round.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> You took all the fun out of it. I was waiting to see who would first get so dizzy he would have to jump off the Merry-go-round.


Don't know what got into me...


----------



## FeXL

I wasn't lecturing you about your occupation. I could care less what your occupation is.

I asked: Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative? 

Now, your question has been answered. Answer mine.



Freddie_Biff said:


> And again you dodge the question. What is your occupation, FeXL, since you seem to think you're in a position to lecture me about my occupation? Let's level the playing field. Answer mine and I'll answer yours.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> You took all the fun out of it. I was waiting to see who would first get so dizzy he would have to jump off the Merry-go-round.



Ha ha! Dropped it—got it—dropped it-—


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> I wasn't lecturing you about your occupation. I could care less what your occupation is.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked: Why is getting screwed over by a Prog better than getting screwed over by a Conservative?
> 
> 
> 
> Now, your question has been answered. Answer mine.



YOU didn't answer it; you had one of your flunkies do it for you. In any event, I already answered your question in a previous response. Asked, answered. I jes luvs it when you miss the thing you was searching for.


----------



## Macfury

Flunkie? That was uncalled for, but I suppose I should have expected it..


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Flunkie? That was uncalled for, but I suppose I should have expected it..



It was totally called for, Mr. Helper. You like to be involved, now you're involved.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

I appreciate the confirmation that you simply chose to be that rude. You whine one minute about imaginary "tone" hurting your feelings and lash out at others the next. What makes you think that you deserve any better than you dish out?



Freddie_Biff said:


> It was totally called for, Mr. Helper. You like to be involved, now you're involved.


----------



## Macfury

That Trudeau photo op is about as sad a piece of staged PR I've seen in some time. "Yup, I gotta go talk to the Robinsons about climate change before I say another word about it. Is my hairspray working?" He's a smart man because his beliefs follow those of a crowd!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> That Trudeau photo op is about as sad a piece of staged PR I've seen in some time. "Yup, I gotta go talk to the Robinsons about climate change before I say another word about it. Is my hairspray working?" He's a smart man because his beliefs follow those of a crowd!


What struck me was that he was wearing a life jacket. His dad wore a fringed jacket when he was out in the canoe. Wimp ..............


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> What struck me was that he was wearing a life jacket. His dad wore a fringed jacket when he was out in the canoe. Wimp ..............


His dad had a better feel for a PR opportunity. I did not like PET, bu the fringe jacket photo became a classic piece of Canadiana.

The family of the people who posted the photo are trying to sell the rights to use the accompanying video clip, so they're working hard to disseminate the stills.


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> That Trudeau photo op is about as sad a piece of staged PR I've seen in some time. "Yup, I gotta go talk to the Robinsons about climate change before I say another word about it. Is my hairspray working?" He's a smart man because his beliefs follow those of a crowd!


I really did not get that. What is he doing, is he going out to educate people on climate change or is he for some reason looking for the opinions of citizens on climate change when he already believes the "majority" of scientists? What is he accomplishing other then a photo op?


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I really did not get that. What is he doing, is he going out to educate people on climate change or is he for some reason looking for the opinions of citizens on climate change when he already believes the "majority" of scientists? What is he accomplishing other then a photo op?


He's kayaking to promote "World Environment Day." He then paddles up to meet the fat cats on shore--dad is president of a casino and has met Trudeau before at some Liberal event. They don't discuss climate at all.


----------



## FeXL

Quelle surprise.

As always, you answered nothing.

As you wish, troll...



Freddie_Biff said:


> YOU didn't answer it; you had one of your flunkies do it for you. In any event, I already answered your question in a previous response. Asked, answered. I jes luvs it when you miss the thing you was searching for.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Quelle surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> As always, you answered nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> As you wish, troll...



Good lord, you are obtuse. Ask your lively bride about the "me too" clause. I've already explained it once.


----------



## Rps

Maybe we should rename this thread........

https://youtu.be/pOYlj2eM4KU


----------



## FeXL

Quotes the troll who refuses to answer even the simplest of questions.

I've posted the question 5 times, quietly, clearly and politely, in addition to a lengthy explanation wherein I first posed the question. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "me, too" clause. Zero. Perhaps if you actually read my posts instead of just scrambling your "auto reply with basic stupidity" keys, we could dispense with all this bull$h!t. There is no reason for you to play dumb about it.

However, at this point, don't even bother, troll. The answer is apparent to all of us. 

I just find it interesting (and, frankly, sad and particularly weak) when ideology completely & utterly eschews any common sense you _may_ once have had.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Good lord, you are obtuse.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Quotes the troll who refuses to answer even the simplest of questions.
> 
> 
> 
> I've posted the question 5 times, quietly, clearly and politely, in addition to a lengthy explanation wherein I first posed the question. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "me, too" clause. Zero. Perhaps if you actually read my posts instead of just scrambling your "auto reply with basic stupidity" keys, we could dispense with all this bull$h!t. There is no reason for you to play dumb about it.
> 
> 
> 
> However, at this point, don't even bother, troll. The answer is apparent to all of us.
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it interesting (and, frankly, sad and particularly weak) when ideology completely & utterly eschews any common sense you _may_ once have had.




Asked, answered. More than once. Do you need pictures?

So what does a photographer earn these days? Asking for a friend.


----------



## FeXL

Nope.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Asked, answered.


Nope.



Freddie_Biff said:


> More than once.


Nope. The picture is crystal clear, troll.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Do you need pictures?


For assholes? Can't do it. Don't have a lens wide enough. Know why? 'Cause there's no end to an asshole. 

You may consider yourself among the counted...



Freddie_Biff said:


> So what does a photographer earn these days? Asking for a friend.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. The picture is crystal clear, troll.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For assholes? Can't do it. Don't have a lens wide enough. Know why? 'Cause there's no end to an asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> You may consider yourself among the counted...




Two words you seem very familiar with: troll and asshole. I wonder why?


----------



## FeXL

Check the mirror...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Two words you seem very familiar with: troll and asshole. I wonder why?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Maybe we should rename this thread........
> 
> https://youtu.be/pOYlj2eM4KU


Freddie isn't as funny as Don Ameche.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I know a couple of crazy cats ladies. Either of them could run this country better than The Hairdo...

Trudeau like a ‘crazy cat lady’ when it comes to refugees



> According to a documents obtained by the Canadian Press through Access to Information, the flood of asylum claims – through legal refugee channels and queue-jumping at unmanned border crossings – could eventually *create an 11-year wait for claimant processing and almost $3 billion in federal social support.*
> 
> This is unconscionable.


Yeah, my bold.


----------



## CubaMark

Might there be some common ground with conservatives and NDP leadership candidate Charlie Angus on this front?

Charlie Angus Pitches Dismantling Indigenous Affairs Department


----------



## FeXL

I'm thinking that the reasons both parties are considering dismantling IA are probably diametrically opposed...



CubaMark said:


> Might there be some common ground with conservatives and NDP leadership candidate Charlie Angus on this front?


----------



## FeXL

So, further from the Religion of Peace.

Outspoken Muslim T.O. Sun writer threatened again



> Toronto Sun columnist Tarek Fatah was waiting for the bus at St. Michael’s Hospital when a taxi pulled up to him not to offer a ride but to deliver a threat.
> 
> “The guy spoke to me in my native language of Urdu,” Fatah said Friday. “He said he recognized my face and then said ‘I have a gun for you.’”


More:



> “It was a death threat no question. I have had them before but it still shakes you,” said the 67-year-old author, who “has been fighting Islamism since 1966.”


There goes the narrative. Again.

And, while we're on the topic, may as well update the Ramadan Bombathon:

Day 24, 139 attacks, 1282 kills by Islamic terrorists.
All other religions combined, 0, 0.
And, finally, we have an attack on Muslims. Yep, one. Somebody finally hit the breaking point & fought back. Although it's unclear in the news whether the single death that resulted was a heart attack or not.

Watch the hue & cry from the left:



> Unfortunately, the reaction from the Left and organized Islam to last night's incident will be to use this as proof positive that there is a war on the followers of Mohammed and their allies by racists, bigots, haters, nationalists, and the forces of darkness, etc. etc. Sure as night follows day, this will be used as a pretext to not only crack down on free speech with even more odious censorship, but will incite acts of retribution which, in a twisted Orwellian manner, will be covered up and/or excused by the usual suspects in the MFM and elsewhere. And in this country, watch this incident bury the actual Democrat-inspired terrorist attack last week while hit jobs and smears against Steve Scalise, Republicans and others continue. Ironic, in a sickening way, that they openly boast how Scalise had it coming, yet G-d forbid anyone were to use the word "karma" to describe what happened last night in London. Brace yourselves.


----------



## FeXL

Go, Senate!!!

Senators propose amendments to federal budget bill



> A Senate committee voted Tuesday to delete a so-called escalator tax on alcohol from the federal government’s budget, defying Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s insistence that only the elected House of Commons has authority over budgetary matters.


WTH? Did these guys just suddenly wake up & say, it's almost summer break, time to earn our pay?

Woohoo!

The Hairdo has the sadz...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

VIDEO: Compulsive Liar Trudeau Flails In Question Period



> *For somebody who lies for a living, Justin Trudeau sure stumbles over his words quite often.*
> 
> That’s a big part of why he doesn’t enjoy question period, and prefers to stick to live with the Kelly and Ryan softball shows. *After all, it’s easier to show off some socks than explain a habit of lying compulsively and breaking promise after promise to the Canadian people.*


Links' bold.

I'm so proud... XX)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Awwww. Lookit Juthdin trying to squeeze a fart out of the unicorn...

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister



> *This is a real headline.*
> 
> Justin Trudeau Hugs a Puppet Unicorn in a Beautiful Universe Much Like Our Own


Links' bold.

Unbelievable. A new low for "journalism". Hands down better (worse?) than his socks or his tits...


----------



## FeXL

Something to be proud of.

Canadian elite special forces sniper makes record-breaking kill shot in Iraq



> A sniper with Canada’s elite special forces in Iraq has shattered the world record for the longest confirmed kill shot in military history at *a staggering distance of 3,450 metres.*


Nearly 3-1/2 kilometers. :yikes:

I don't see that bested anytime soon.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Honest talk on immigration needed



> There is a deliberate attempt to stifle debate and silence dissenting voices in today’s political climate. Nowhere is this unfortunate trend more evident than in discussions about immigration and integration.
> 
> In Canada, elites in Liberal party circles and the mainstream media are so worried about a “backlash” against the Trudeau government’s open-border agenda, they’re willing to cover up the news and spread false information to protect Trudeau.
> 
> When some Conservative MPs raised concerns over the unprecedented surge of illegal border crossings earlier this year, Trudeau’s [puppetmaster] Gerald Butts tried to intimidate them.


Related:

Trudeau's fast-tracked refugees missed overseas orientation session: Docs



> Many of the Syrian refugees who came to Canada as part of Justin Trudeau’s fast-tracked program did not receive an important overseas orientation session prior to arrival, the Sun has learned.
> 
> According to information provided by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC), refugees typically attend “a three-day group session that provides initial orientation about life in Canada.” However, due to the rushed nature of Trudeau’s decision to rapidly resettle tens of thousands of Syrians to meet his political timeline in 2015, this orientation was skipped.
> 
> An internal document from IRCC, made public through an Access to Information request and based on a forum held Nov. 28-29, 2015 in Toronto, clearly states that *“there will be no orientation abroad for this cohort.”*
> 
> According to an IRCC spokesman, this program is an important part of Canada’s refugee resettlement program.
> 
> *“Orientation content covers Canadian laws, employment, education, housing, health, life in Canada,* and access to citizenship and settlement services,” the spokesman said.


M'bold.

Nice...


----------



## FeXL

David Reevely: 'See if you can take the social-justice warriors out at the top,' Jordan Peterson says



> Kathleen Wynne is a radical leftist who wants to tear down the things that made Ontario, Canada and the West great, University of Toronto psychologist Jordan Peterson told a crowd assembled by Tory MPP Randy Hillier in Carleton Place on Thursday night.
> 
> “If she had a shred of integrity, she’d resign,” Peterson said to applause, from a riser in a corner of a second-floor ballroom at the town arena.


Related:

Wynne's Liberals tracking for third place in next election: Poll



> The Ontario Liberals and Premier Kathleen Wynne find themselves as unpopular as ever despite a flurry of feel-good announcements, a Forum Research poll reveals.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Liberals are the choice of just 23% of decided and leaning voters — down from 28% provincewide — and would secure just nine seats if an election were held now, the pollster projects.


Good luck, MF.

In two years time we'll be rid of our albatross. The only thing left will be the long & painful clean up.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Good luck, MF.


It took a mike Harris to dig us out of Bob Rae. Both of our provinces will need someone with the biggest sh*t shovels made in Canada.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Both of our provinces will need someone with the biggest sh*t shovels made in Canada.


We're lucky. We can always borrow a few from the oil sands...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Time to pull out that old Notwithstanding clause...

Wall calls Ottawa funding change for provinces 'extortion'



> The Sask. government is speaking out against a recent decision by Ottawa to only provide certain funding to provinces that join a national climate plan.
> 
> On Thursday, Federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna said provinces have until the end of December to sign onto the plan – which includes a carbon tax – in order to receive infrastructure funding to help lower emissions.
> 
> So far, Saskatchewan and Manitoba are the only provinces who have not agreed.


So far, the Saskatchewan and Manitoba premieres are the only ones who have a spine...


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Nearly 3-1/2 kilometers. :yikes:


That is remarkable. Approaching a movie-type extreme.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZQi3ODB-U[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

One pictures those cartoon bullets running out of steam and falling on the ground after a few kilometres!


----------



## FeXL

Well, that's...embarrassing.

Quebec now more creditworthy than Ontario



> Standard & Poor’s decision to boost Quebec’s credit rating last week has an important symbolic consequence for neighbouring Ontario. The move, which raised Quebec’s credit rating from A+ to AA-, means that f*or the first time ever, Quebec’s credit rating ranks higher than Ontario’s.*
> 
> For decades, Quebec held a dubious reputation for poor fiscal management, while until the early 1990s Ontario held a reputation for successful fiscal management. So again, the recent upgrade of Quebec’s credit rating — above that held by Ontario — is a remarkable development.


M'bold.

Wynneing!!!


----------



## FeXL

Nope. Not in Canada, No way...

Forced marriage in Canada 'more prevalent' than thought: ex-child bride



> Samra Zafar was just 16 years old when her mother told her she would be marrying a 28-year-old man in Canada.
> 
> Against her wishes, Zafar left her Pakistani family’s home in the United Arab Emirates and started a new life with her husband in Mississauga, Ont.
> 
> Over the next decade, she endured “abuse of all kinds” as she raised two daughters and tried desperately to obtain a university education and get out of her marriage. She eventually succeeded and is now speaking out about child brides and forced marriage – a problem she says is prevalent, even in Canada.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

<just shaking my head...>

What's with U2 at Canada 150 bash?



> It’s so stereotypical Canadian that we’d hand our big stage over to non-Canadian performers on Canada’s 150th birthday celebration on Parliament Hill.
> 
> “Incredible news! Bono and The Edge from @U2 will be joining us on Parliament Hill on July 1 for #CanadaDay! Don’t miss it! #canada150,” read a message posted on the federal government’s Capital Experience twitter feed Friday.
> 
> Heritage Minister Mélanie Joly tweeted: “Exciting news! Look forward to seeing U2! It’s a beautiful (Canada) Day! #Canada150 #CanadaDay”
> 
> But they are not Canadian! What about hottest music stars in the world Drake or Justin Bieber?
> 
> Not available?
> 
> How about The Weeknd or Bryan Adams, Celine Dion, Shania Twain, Rush? Avril Lavigne?
> 
> Not willing to come?
> 
> How about Nickelback?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Very Prime Ministerial...

VIDEO: Trudeau Loses His Cool When Confronted With Truth



> Our taxes are up, our country is being sold off, foreign countries are put ahead of Canadians, taxpayer money is spent on Trudeau’s own aggrandizement, and those are just a fraction of the serious problems we face because of the Trudeau government.
> 
> Of course, Justin Trudeau doesn’t acknowledge any of these problems. Instead, he hides behind his pathetic talking points, meant to distract from the truth of his horrible record.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Very Prime Ministerial...
> 
> VIDEO: Trudeau Loses His Cool When Confronted With Truth


Has this Spencer fella ever watched Question Period before? "Loses his cool" - that's hilarious. Trudeau certainly didn't address any of Scheer's points, but the way this FAKE NEWS opinion piece framed it, I was expecting some kind of unhinged buggy-eyed red-faced rant.

Trudeau's been a huge disappointment (for exactly the opposite reasons that he has been to you, I'm sure), but that post was beyond silly.


----------



## FeXL

I agree.

I thought Juthdin was going to blow that blood vessel throbbing on his temple.

Good they didn't show the smoke coming off his socks.

Again, _very_ Prime Ministerial.



CubaMark said:


> ...that post was beyond silly.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I thought Juthdin was going to blow that blood vessel throbbing on his temple.


I've been meaning to ask: what's this "Juthdin" thing you've posted at least twice now? I don't get the reference.


----------



## Rps

Wow! I agree with CubaMark, has this guy ever been to Question Period? Really jaundiced piece.....both The Libs and Cons playing to their audience. I sometimes think we would be better served if the sessions weren't filmed or broadcast......but if we did that all that would be talking would be empty seats. These sessions are like listening to discourse by trained seals..........as Letterman once said, " biggest waste of film since his wedding pictures."


----------



## FeXL

Justin with a lithsp...



CubaMark said:


> I've been meaning to ask: what's this "Juthdin" thing you've posted at least twice now? I don't get the reference.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Justin with a lithsp...


Yes, I got that, thank-you.

But _why_?

Given your social conservative bent, my first inclination is to assume that you're playing on the stereotype of supposed homosexual speech patterns.

But.. you wouldn't be that inane, would you? Taking a break from spreading hate against muslims to throw a little nastiness toward "the gays"? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised... :yikes:


----------



## Macfury

It's incredible that your own homophobia would associate a lisp with LGBT citizens. 

FeXL is casting Justin as a man-child.



CubaMark said:


> Yes, I got that, thank-you.
> 
> But _why_?
> 
> Given your social conservative bent, my first inclination is to assume that you're playing on the stereotype of supposed homosexual speech patterns.
> 
> But.. you wouldn't be that inane, would you? Taking a break from spreading hate against muslims to throw a little nastiness toward "the gays"? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised... :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

Given your cranio-rectal inversion...



CubaMark said:


> Given your social conservative bent...


You Progs really grasp at straws, don't you? You can't find anything concrete to gripe about so you have to make up these little scenarios where the big, bad, scary conservative is the boogey-man. Seriously? Booooooo!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao: 

The more you go on like this the more I'm convinced your PhD was obtained from within a CrackerJack box. I've never heard anyone fulminate like this before...

You'd have to ask Sophie to be sure, but I don't think The Hairdo is Gay. Unless there was a turkey baster involved somewhere. Not that I give a flying fukc either way...



CubaMark said:


> ...my first inclination is to assume that you're playing on the stereotype of supposed homosexual speech patterns.


Once again, how is talking about the barbaric practices & mindsets of primitive religions & cultures hate? Show me where I've posted anything anywhere that is false.



CubaMark said:


> Taking a break from spreading hate against muslims...


You're a fukcing idiot, CM. Are there black helicopters flying around your house all the time, too? :lmao::lmao::lmao:



CubaMark said:


> ...to throw a little nastiness toward "the gays"? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised... :yikes:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It's incredible that your own homophobia would associate a lisp with LGBT citizens.


Award for least applicable description of my character goes to: MacFury!



Macfury said:


> FeXL is casting Justin as a man-child.


That must be something that circulates on the alt-right airwaves. I don't recall having been exposed to any material that would equate a lisp with the concept of a man-child.

But fine, if FeXL wants to continue to avoid facing his inherent prejudices, it's none of my business.


----------



## FeXL

Shush! CM, hear that?

There's a black helicopter outside yer window...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



CubaMark said:


> That must be something that circulates on the alt-right airwaves.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Shush! CM, hear that?
> 
> There's a black helicopter outside yer window...


Just as I thought. You're tied into those alt-right-wing militia loonie types who expect the United Nations to invade the USA any day now.

If you say so, buddy.


----------



## Macfury

CM, that's the weakest attempt at turnaround I've seen in some time.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's incredible that your own homophobia would associate a lisp with LGBT citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> FeXL is casting Justin as a man-child.




Men-children have lithps? First I've heard of it. Either way, mocking someone for a speech problem is about the same as mocking them for any other disability. It's just pretty mean-spirited, but somehow totally expected coming from such a person.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> CM, that's the weakest attempt at turnaround I've seen in some time.


Funny, I thought it was pretty typical.


----------



## FeXL

Awwww. Wanna give Juthdin a hug?



Freddie_Biff said:


> It's just pretty mean-spirited...


----------



## Macfury

Coming from a gentle soul such as yourself... that's hilarious!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Men-children have lithps? First I've heard of it. Either way, mocking someone for a speech problem is about the same as mocking them for any other disability. It's just pretty mean-spirited, but somehow totally expected coming from such a person.


----------



## minstrel

Oh, for goodness sakes! 

"_"All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth" is a novelty Christmas song written in 1944 by Donald Yetter Gardner while teaching music at public schools in Smithtown, New York. He asked his *second grade class* what they wanted for Christmas, and noticed that almost all of the students had at least one front tooth missing* as they answered in a lisp*._ "

My bold. 

Thanks Wikipedia!


----------



## FeXL

Now waaaaait just a minute here, minstrel. While I appreciate you attempting to inject some humour into this otherwise humourless thread, this is pretty serious stuff.

If CM sez I'm pickin' on the Gayz, then I must be pickin' on the Gayz...


----------



## Macfury

minstrel said:


> \Thanks Wikipedia!


Thanks, Minstrel!


----------



## FeXL

Shocka!

Kelly McParland: The Liberals have created a political landscape littered with abandoned promises and policy reversals



> Justin Trudeau enters his second summer as prime minister with a thin record to look back on, across a landscape littered with abandoned promises and public reversals.
> 
> Balanced budgets have been abandoned. Limited deficits are a thing of the past. Electoral reform crashed and burned like a damaged drone. Parliamentary reform turned into an embarrassing retreat as the opposition ganged up against Liberal efforts to bend the House of Commons to its will.
> 
> Canada’s indigenous people have refused to be jollied along with happy talk and photo ops, signalling that it will take more than a renamed office block in Ottawa to reverse generations of built-up anger. “Peacekeeping” – that magic Liberal realm where proud Canadian soldiers in blue helmets keep order in far-off lands – turns out to mean a $30 billion increase in conventional military spending over the next decade. The firm belief the Liberals held while in opposition – that the paranoid Tories of the Harper government saw terrorists behind every lamp post, has given way to a vast expansion of Canada’s spy agency and an enhanced priority on identifying and halting extremists before they can do to Canada what they are doing to Europe. Warning of the potential evils Canadians face, and the need to be vigilant, Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale even sounds a little Harper-like if you close your eyes and listen.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Typical.

WHAT? Trudeau Blames Opposition For Budget Deficit



> Perhaps his declining popularity ratings are starting to get to him, since he thinks he is above being questioned or challenged.
> 
> Whatever it is, his answers in a press conference today were totally absurd.
> 
> *Despite having a majority government, Trudeau is blaming the Conservatives for his broken promises on the budget deficit.*


Links' bold.

Where are all the Progs on these boards making the same accusations of The Hairdo that they make about Trump: "YOU'VE GOT A MAJORITY!!! WHAT'S THE PROBLEM??!!"

Related:

PM Trudeau blames opposition for electoral reform failure, budget deficit



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ended his second parliamentary sitting with a few parting shots at the Conservatives and NDP, blaming the opposition for stalling bills in the Senate, the federal deficit and his broken promise to reform the electoral system.


And here I thought budgets balanced themselves...

Related, too:

Trudeau claims his government has met fiscal targets and Conservatives partly to blame for deficit



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau argues that his Liberal government has been keeping its promise to be fiscally responsible but the previous Conservative administration is at least partly to blame for higher than expected deficits.
> 
> Trudeau said Tuesday that the Liberals spent about $10 billion in 2016-17, their first full year in office, precisely as promised in the 2015 election platform.
> 
> But he insisted the Liberals had to deal with a baseline budget deficit of $18 billion after they came to power, even though their Conservative predecessors had predicted a balanced budget.


Yep. Always somebody else's fault.


----------



## FeXL

I'll say...

Teen's sex attacker 'exhibits great potential': Judge



> A young aboriginal man who sexually assaulted a 16-year-old friend “exhibits great potential” despite a difficult upbringing and should not face a lengthy jail term, a Nova Scotia judge says.
> 
> Judge James Chipman sentenced Davis Joseph Prosper to *four months* in jail in a decision the judge said took Prosper’s aboriginal status into account.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Ottawa? They can have it...

Indigenous protesters in Ottawa erect teepee on Parliament Hill to counter Canada 150 celebrations



> After initially being met with resistance from police, dozens of indigenous protesters erected a large teepee overnight in front of Parliament Hill’s East Block.
> 
> *The demonstration was part of what was described as a “reoccupation” ceremony to counter Canada’s 150th anniversary.*


M'bold.


----------



## CubaMark

*....there goes Christy Clark.....*

Christy Clark en route to Government House after losing confidence vote - British Columbia - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Call an election, Christy!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> *....there goes Christy Clark.....*
> 
> 
> 
> Christy Clark en route to Government House after losing confidence vote - British Columbia - CBC News



Rock and roll. I like a good upheaval now and then, even though the NDP in Alberta and BC have very different agendas pipeline-wise.


----------



## Dr.G.

Good one .............

https://www.nfb.ca/film/william_sha...oken&utm_medium=social-media&utm_content=film


----------



## Beej

Too political for the Canada Day thread, but related.

Praise, gratitude, and caution for the 150th. From someone who has a different perspective than most Canadians.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q9Ivh9dCyc[/ame]


----------



## eMacMan

Again probably does not fit the spirit of the Canada Day thread. My wife picked this up live on the CBC webcast and thought she had probably let her mind wander during a talking head segment. Turns out she nailed it, but you would never know about this looking at today's Calgary Herald. Sun seems to have missed it as well but their web page layout makes it very difficult to tell.

'We already know you hate Alberta': How Justin Trudeau managed to insult an entire province - seattlepi.com



> Simply listing all 50 U.S. states would make for a tedious Fourth of July speech, at best. But the concept appealed to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for his big Canada Day address on Saturday: He would name each province and territory of Canada - with gusto.
> After all, there weren't that many of them. How bad could it go?
> The prime minister stood before a crowd in Ottawa, waved his arm and began in rapture: "British Columbia!"
> Trudeau waited a moment for the applause to stop. Then on to "Yukon!" and "The Northwest Territories!"
> That was a nice touch. The sparsely populated northern territories tend to get overlooked, but Trudeau was going geographically, from west to east.
> "Saskatchewan!" he said. Hmm. Technically, Alberta would come first, but -
> "Manitoba!" Wait, stop.
> But Trudeau continued, all the way to the eastern coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, then added: "We embrace the diversity while knowing in our hearts that we are all Canadians."
> An announcer would have to point out that he had forgotten Alberta.
> Twitter has not yet stopped reminding him.


One of the few times the WashPo actually gets something right and it has to be this.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Again probably does not fit the spirit of the Canada Day thread. My wife picked this up live on the CBC webcast and thought she had probably let her mind wander during a talking head segment. Turns out she nailed it, but you would never know about this looking at today's Calgary Herald.


The map upthread already points this one out! It's a good thing Rachel rushed to saddle hardworking Albertans with a carbon tax or they would not have received such great favour from Trudeau.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Again probably does not fit the spirit of the Canada Day thread. My wife picked this up live on the CBC webcast and thought she had probably let her mind wander during a talking head segment. Turns out she nailed it, but you would never know about this looking at today's Calgary Herald. Sun seems to have missed it as well but their web page layout makes it very difficult to tell.
> 
> 'We already know you hate Alberta': How Justin Trudeau managed to insult an entire province - seattlepi.com
> 
> 
> One of the few times the WashPo actually gets something right and it has to be this.




I think of Trudeau's gaffe as more of a Freudian slip. Perhaps he would have been more likely to remember if the province hadn't gone so Tory blue last election.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *....there goes Christy Clark.....*
> 
> Christy Clark en route to Government House after losing confidence vote - British Columbia - CBC News


Wonder how this will play out for the Site C project. Clark was pimping this as her contribution to the CO2 global warming scam. Both NDP and Green are similarly enthusiastic about kowtowing to the big $15Trillion$ scam. 

OTOH genuine environmentalists recognize Site C as an environmental disaster in the making.

We shall have to see whether Big Bucks trump Native interests yet again.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I think of Trudeau's gaffe as more of a Freudian slip. Perhaps he would have been more likely to remember if the province hadn't gone so Tory blue last election.


I think of Trudeau as a gaffe. Every. Single. Time.

Or maybe a goof. Hard to tell most days.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> I think of Trudeau's gaffe as more of a Freudian slip. Perhaps he would have been more likely to remember if the province hadn't gone so Tory blue last election.


Can't see Albertans voting for someone who does not know the province exists. 92% is a great score on a geography test, not so great in those circumstances.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Can't see Albertans voting for someone who does not know the province exists. 92% is a great score on a geography test, not so great in those circumstances.




But as it stands, Trudeau really has no seats to lose in Alberta either.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> But as it stands, Trudeau really has no seats to lose in Alberta either.


Nor credibility.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Nor credibility.



Exactly. So why bother bending over backwards to appease Albertans? Do many conservative snowflakes just bitch and complain anyway.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Exactly. So why bother bending over backwards to appease Albertans? Do many conservative snowflakes just bitch and complain anyway.


I haven't head much complaining. Just mocking the PM's attitude.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I haven't head much complaining. Just mocking the PM's attitude.



Then I'm sure you'll like this one—the philosphorapter.


----------



## SINC

One more:


----------



## Dr.G.

Two provinces have already hit Canada's 2030 climate change target, NEB says | National Observer

Good to know that Nova Scotia is one of the two Canadian provinces.


----------



## Macfury

It's very sad to see governments taken in by this nonsense.



Dr.G. said:


> Two provinces have already hit Canada's 2030 climate change target, NEB says | National Observer
> 
> Good to know that Nova Scotia is one of the two Canadian provinces.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's very sad to see governments taken in by this nonsense.



It's very sad to see that climate change deniers still exist.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> It's very sad to see that climate change deniers still exist.


Well, we have been impressed with the efforts to "go green" here in Nova Scotia in the three years we have been here. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> It's very sad to see that climate change deniers still exist.


I don't think they are denying it exists as much as the government's solution makes little sense economically or practically. Not saying we should just ignore and rock on. When my daughter was writing her thesis I often told her not to try and dazzle the profs with language to show how smart she was; rather write it so someone in grade 8 will understand it.....our governments haven't learned that lesson.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> I don't think they are denying it exists as much as the government's solution makes little sense economically or practically. Not saying we should just ignore and rock on. When my daughter was writing her thesis I often told her not to try and dazzle the profs with language to show how smart she was; rather write it so someone in grade 8 will understand it.....our governments haven't learned that lesson.


This.

We're taxing ourselves into the poor house with little or zero gain. Current so-called solutions are useless and expensive.


----------



## Macfury

Sadly, the both of you have been taken in by programs that are expensive and can demonstrate little or no benefit.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It's very sad to see that climate change deniers still exist.





Dr.G. said:


> Well, we have been impressed with the efforts to "go green" here in Nova Scotia in the three years we have been here. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Even if you believe humans are 25% responsible for so-called "climate change", then removing human-created CO2 entirely from the equation should create a practical result. If the government were honest and straightforward about the best possible _outcome_ of such programs, then someone in Grade 8 would see that they were being sold an expensive bill of goods with no solid outcome. However, they have _sold_ their "green" programs on Grade 8-level virtue-signalling, the construction of huge, inefficient and expensive wind towers as a visible sign of their "progress."

Governments love green programs primarily because they allow them to handle budgets of billions. There's not much more to the story.




Rps said:


> I don't think they are denying it exists as much as the government's solution makes little sense economically or practically. Not saying we should just ignore and rock on. When my daughter was writing her thesis I often told her not to try and dazzle the profs with language to show how smart she was; rather write it so someone in grade 8 will understand it.....our governments haven't learned that lesson.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Even if you believe humans are 25% responsible for so-called "climate change", then removing human-created CO2 entirely from the equation should create a practical result. If the government were honest and straightforward about the best possible _outcome_ of such programs, then someone in Grade 8 would see that they were being sold an expensive bill of goods with no solid outcome. However, they have _sold_ their "green" programs on Grade 8-level virtue-signalling, the construction of huge, inefficient and expensive wind towers as a visible sign of their "progress."
> 
> Governments love green programs primarily because they allow them to handle budgets of billions. There's not much more to the story.


Note the visible (not) impact of man caused global warming in the NOAA graph from this post. Worse than that the best numbers I have been able to find indicate sea level rises have dropped to less than 1mm/year post 2000.

The Alberta NDP Thread - Page 235 - ehMac.ca


----------



## Macfury

Don't try to present facts against the feel-good aura of swaddling oneself in mushy green virtue!



eMacMan said:


> Note the visible (not) impact of man caused global warming in the NOAA graph from this post. Worse than that the best numbers I have been able to find indicate sea level rises have dropped to less than 1mm/year post 2000.
> 
> The Alberta NDP Thread - Page 235 - ehMac.ca


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> I don't think they are denying it exists as much as the government's solution makes little sense economically or practically.


It's political rhetoric to the point where disagreeing with policy prescriptions (ie. political science and economics) or catastrophic "what if" scenarios is denying science. I can speak to the economics side and it bares little resemblance to the actual policies, beyond a carbon tax and, arguably, R&D.


----------



## Beej

The secret ballot issue again. It's like openly saying intimidation is a key part of the sales pitch for unions. Good job confusing the more readily digestible "big corporations are bad" message.

B.C. Greens kill NDP’s proposed change to unionized secret ballots | Vancouver Sun


----------



## Rps

Beej said:


> The secret ballot issue again. It's like openly saying intimidation is a key part of the sales pitch for unions. Good job confusing the more readily digestible "big corporations are bad" message.
> 
> B.C. Greens kill NDP’s proposed change to unionized secret ballots | Vancouver Sun


How a union is certified doesn't bother me as much as what it does after certification. What I would like to see is the "union's right to strike" taken away and replaced with an employees' mandate to strike. The difference being a union can have 15% of its employees show up to vote, proxy to the union is included. They tout that X% is in favour. What should happen is the employees are hauled into a meeting and both sides explain there position. Then when voting comes all employees cast a for or against ballot. If majority turns down the company offer then they are on strike. I would bet the results in the mandate approach would be far different than in the current system.


----------



## FeXL

It's comforting to see such public displays of ignorance on these boards.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It's very sad to see that climate change deniers still exist.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Yaaaaa-hooooo!!!

Trudeau will be no-show at this year's Calgary Stampede



> The Calgary Stampede is looking a little less political this year.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau won’t make it to the 2017 Stampede, his office said Tuesday.


A feature, not a bug.

Methinks his thin-skinned socks couldn't take all the boo-ing he would have rec'd...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Juthdin!!! Russkies!!! Election interference!!! Red Star!!!

Officials considered one-on-one meeting between Trudeau and Putin, documents say

This just slays me:



> “Re-engaging (with Russia) *is a complex undertaking* which understandably elicits a range of views on how best to proceed,” the heavily censored documents read.


M'bold.

So, our wunnerful Hairdo thinks a meeting with Putin is so complex that he hasn't bothered meeting with him in nearly two years. Trump's been POTUS for less than 6 months & he's already over there hashing stuff out.

Perhaps if Vlad jes' sent him a pair of socks with a hammer & sickle on them. You know, a little ice-breaker between commies. Hey, they could meet shirtless!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on traitorous acts by national leaders.

Debate rages over $10.5M Khadr deal



> People are really peeved about the blood money payout to Omar Khadr.
> 
> In my quarter century at the Toronto Sun, I can’t recall seeing so much anger from all across Canada. It is directed at the Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his government’s decision to settle with Khadr for $10.5-million and apologize for not properly honouring his Charter Rights while imprisoned at Guantánamo Bay.


Related:

Federal Conservative Leader Scheer vows to put Liberal feet to fire over Khadr payout



> Andrew Scheer says the Conservative Opposition will force a debate in the House of Commons on the Liberal government’s payout to former Guantanamo Bay inmate Omar Khadr.
> 
> Ottawa formally apologized to Khadr this week and paid him to settle a longstanding lawsuit — reportedly to the tune of $10.5 million — prompting outrage among federal Conservatives and their new leader.


Related, 2:

Liberals two-faced on Khadr



> The Omar Khadr case is a textbook example of how the federal Liberals, Canada’s self-described natural governing party, operate.
> 
> They do it by hypocritically changing their spots – if you don’t like Liberal principles, hang around for a few minutes, because they’ll have new ones – while blaming controversies on the Conservatives, for which Liberals were responsible.


Related, 3:

How this al Qaeda militant turned into a ‘victim’ — then a millionaire



> How Omar, now 30, went from al Qaeda militant to soft-spoken “victim” is a bitter controversy that has divided a country for more than a decade.
> 
> Some consider him the survivor of the worst kind of abuses — a helpless child forced into conflict by a fundamentalist father. But others see him as a hardened terrorist and coldblooded killer.
> 
> “This payout is a slap in the face to men and women in uniform who face incredible danger every day to keep us safe,” Canadian Conservative leader Andrew Scheer said.
> 
> He certainly had the terrorist’s pedigree.


Related, 4:

Trudeau should be charged with treason: Morris



> Layne Morris admits the “sneakiness” of the Canadian government to shield Omar Khadr from having his sweet cash settlement being exposed to an American court order felt like another terror attack.
> 
> “Like a punch in the face,” Morris said. “We didn’t understand the deal but we didn’t think that the government would do a behind-the-scenes move like that.”
> 
> After all, where Morris comes from, the government does not fraternize with the enemy trying to kill their soldiers, let alone reward them with a $10.5-million payout and apology.
> 
> “It feels like a dirty deal to me.” said the 55-year-old special forces sergeant, who was there when Omar Khadr threw a grenade that killed fellow Sgt. Christopher Speer.


Related, 6:

Veteran Blinded By Omar Khadr Says Trudeau Guilty Of Treason



> The wounded warrior who was blinded by Omar Khadr’s grenade attack that killed Sgt. Chris Speer says Canadian Prime Minster Justin Trudeau should be charged with treason.
> 
> In an interview with the Toronto Sun on Saturday, Layne Morris says Trudeau’s decision to reward the former al-Qaida terrorist with a formal apology and $10.5 million cash settlement feels “like a punch in the face.”
> 
> “I don’t see this as anything but treason,” said Morris. “It’s something a traitor would do. As far as I am concerned, Prime Minister Trudeau should be charged.”


----------



## CubaMark

*Opposition to Omar Khadr's settlement is puzzling and cynical*

When it became known last week that Canada was to issue an apology worth $10.5 million to former Guantanamo Bay prisoner Omar Khadr, a Canadian, it came to many as a no-brainer.

After all, it aligned with Canadian values of freedom, ethics and social justice.

Morality aside, it wasn’t as if the government had a choice.

The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of Khadr three times after his lawyers took the case to court, and in 2010 had unequivocally stated that Canadian officials had violated Khadr’s human rights under the Charter and that his treatment “offends the most basic Canadian standards about the treatment of detained youth suspects.”

There was no chance of the government winning the $20 million civil suit Khadr’s lawyers had launched in 2004.

“The only question that remained was how much to settle for,” says Star national security reporter Michelle Shephard, author of Guantanamo’s Child: The Untold Story of Omar Khadr and co-director of an Emmy-nominated documentary with the same name.

It didn’t seem possible that any Canadians would look askance at making reparations with a man whose life has been shaped by repeated betrayals: his father Al-Qaeda fundraiser Ahmed Said Khadr who took him, an 8-year-old boy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, his mother Maha Elsamnah who supported this, the American military who instead of treating him as a child soldier (he was 15 when captured), detained, tortured and subjected him to an unfair trial, and Canada that — under Jean Chretien and Paul Martin’s Liberals and Harper’s Conservatives — abandoned him in the illegal hellhole that is Guantanamo Bay.

Oh, but the rage.

(Metro)​


----------



## Macfury

Yeah, the government had a choice. It had a chance to win the suit. And the Canadian people are not responsible for the betrayals of someone's parents. The only people who saw this pay-for-murder scheme as a "no-brainer" were perverse progs.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Oh, but the rage.


Yep and it will continue and likely increase right up to the time that the Liberals and The Hairdoo feel the full brunt of it at the polls in two years time.

Khadr may find himself in another form of war in future. It would not surprise me at all to see an attempt on Khadr's life. That is how intense that rage is in some circles. I hope I am wrong, but I fear I am right.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Yeah, the government had a choice. It had a chance to win the suit.


Please elaborate. The Government of Canada was found to have violated Khadr's civil rights, with two appeals rejected. What is this "chance to win" of which you speak?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Please elaborate. The Government of Canada was found to have violated Khadr's civil rights, with two appeals rejected. What is this "chance to win" of which you speak?


The Supreme Court is already bat**** crazy with prog judges, but the Libs made a deal on reparations before they were awarded. Trudeau was schoolboy eager to hand out that cash.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The Supreme Court is already bat**** crazy with prog judges, but the Libs made a deal on reparations before they were awarded. Trudeau was schoolboy eager to hand out that cash.


Two of the Supreme Court judges serving in 2010 were appointed by Harper; and the rulings (all three of 'em) were unanimous.

As to your clarification, you are now saying that the Canadian government would *not* have won, only that Khadr's settlement precludes finding out what the court might have awarded him in a successful trial (he was suing for $20-million; Trudeau settled for $10-million). Factor in the lawyers' fees, the public spectacle of dragging this on for who knows how many more years, and the embarrassment of having Khadr's case (and the Canadian gov'ts actions / lack of) aired like the government's dirty laundry.... well, it looks like not such a bad deal given all of that.


----------



## Macfury

I'd say it was a bad deal for all that, and that this will stick like feces to the Liberals. The public spectacle of dragging this on would have been no embarrassment to the federal government--I would have had a little respect for them. 

That two of nine judges were appointed by Harper is no solace. I preferred Harper to any other politician running, but ultimately he capitulated to the statist malaise that seems to infect even staunch conservatives at the federal level.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Yeah, the government had a choice. It had a chance to win the suit. And the Canadian people are not responsible for the betrayals of someone's parents. The only people who saw this pay-for-murder scheme as a "no-brainer" were perverse progs.




You understand so little. Harper's gov't already lost the Supreme Court decision. There is no higher appeal. He could have so much money by doing the right thing in the first place.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> You understand so little. Harper's gov't already lost the Supreme Court decision. There is no higher appeal. He could have so much money by doing the right thing in the first place.


He did the right thing by appealing.


----------



## FeXL

Oh, that'd be sweet...

Freeze Omar Khadr’s settlement funds, widow’s lawyer argues



> A lawyer for the widow of the U.S. soldier allegedly killed by Omar Khadr is arguing that the former child soldier’s controversial $10.5-million settlement from Ottawa should be frozen, so it will not disappear or be given to his “extremist” family.
> 
> Written arguments were filed on Monday with the Ontario Superior Court by lawyer David Winer on behalf of his client Tabitha Speer, the widow of Sergeant Christopher Speer. Sgt. Speer was killed by a grenade in the 2002 firefight in Afghanistan that ended with Mr. Khadr’s capture, at the age of 15. Also among the plaintiffs is Layne Morris, a U.S. soldier partly blinded in that battle.


----------



## eMacMan

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/justin-trudeau-says-khadr-settlement-190000466.html

I am damn near choking on this. 

He did it because he believes in Khadr's charter rights? Trudeau has shown zero interest in the charter rights of the million plus Canadian citizens with the fatal drop of America blood. Those Canadians whose charter rights were tossed aside by the Harpoon signing of the FATCA - IGA.

A Canadian is a Canadian, unless the PM does not have the balls to tell the IRS to go to hell.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> He did the right thing by appealing.




He cost you a lot more money by appealing. I thought libertarians were supposed to be frugal.


----------



## Macfury

Libertarians also don't believe in rewarding enemy combatants who demand money after killing people.



Freddie_Biff said:


> He cost you a lot more money by appealing. I thought libertarians were supposed to be frugal.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*



Macfury said:


> Libertarians also don't believe in rewarding enemy combatants who demand money after killing people.


Neither does anybody else with more than two brain cells to rub together...

Khadr’s Compensation: 71% of Canadians say government made wrong call by settling out of court



> The vast majority of Canadians say the federal government made the wrong decision in settling a lawsuit with former child soldier Omar Khadr and instead apologizing and paying him $10.5 million in compensation for his treatment as a prisoner in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
> 
> A new survey from the Angus Reid Institute indicates more than seven-in-ten (71%) are of the opinion the Trudeau government should have fought the case and left it to the courts to decide whether Khadr was wrongfully imprisoned.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

_Very_ prime ministerial...

Trudeau says we’re disorganized — by blood 



> In a bid to compliment his German hosts, according to the transcript of the interview published by BILD, Trudeau says:
> 
> “You are perhaps a little more … I’m looking for the right word – predictable? No, you’re more organized, maybe, than Canadians can be. We’ve got enough French and Latin blood in us to be less organized.”
> 
> Um, beg your pardon, Prime Minister?
> 
> Canadians are less organized than Germans because of our “French and Latin blood?”


Hey, Juthdin, how'd those socks taste?


----------



## FeXL

Obviously, it's no big deal if there's no such thing as gender anymore...



> _CORNWALL, Ont. - An eastern Ontario city is facing a human rights complaint over its policy prohibiting women and girls 10 and older from being topless in municipal pools._​


----------



## FeXL

I jes' luvs me a politician who puts both socked feet in his mouth when there ain't a teleprompter around. Especially one as bumbling & inept as The Hairdo. He'd have made less of a fool of himself merely lifting his shirt & showing his tits. Again...

Trudeau plays dangerous game of identity politics 



> _“Anytime I meet people who got to make the deliberate choice, whose parents chose Canada, I’m jealous. Because I think being able to choose it, rather than being Canadian by default, is an amazing statement of attachment to Canada ... *This is your country more than it is for others because we take it for granted.*”_​


Yeah, my bold.

Maybe _you_ take it for granted, Juthdin. Many of us don't.



> In contrast to Trudeau’s admiration for newcomers, is his dismissive reference to Canadians “by default” who comprise 80% of the population.
> 
> Were the citizen soldiers who stormed Juno Beach less admirable because they were born in the Dominion?
> 
> Do our brave men and women in uniform take Canada for granted?
> 
> Or the 13 million volunteers?
> 
> Do pure laine Québécois, like Trudeau, have a “default” lineage?
> 
> Would he dare refer to people as indigenous “by default”?
> 
> To ask the questions is to answer them.


Nails it.

Le Dauphin: what a sad joke perpetrated upon the fine people in this country... XX)


----------



## FUXL

*Suggested readings for Athholes*

The Athholes here should read and comprehend the following two articles. They likely will not understand them. Souiee!!!!

ON TARGET: Khadr Was A Victim, Not A Terrorist — espritdecorps

https://georgiebc.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/the-silence-surrounding-omar-khadr/


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Yaaaaa-hooooo!!!
> 
> Trudeau will be no-show at this year's Calgary Stampede
> 
> * * *
> 
> Methinks his thin-skinned socks couldn't take all the boo-ing he would have rec'd...


*Looks like you'll get your chance to boo him in person...*. :lmao:

*Justin Trudeau will attend Calgary Stampede after initially bucking event*









(CBC)​


----------



## FeXL

I wouldn't waste the gas to get there or give Le Dauphin the satisfaction of showing up...



CubaMark said:


> Looks like you'll get your chance to boo him in person...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Liberals miscalculated on Khadr settlement 



> So why the Trudeauites’ fixation with Khadr?
> 
> First, “progressives” love nothing more than to show off their political correctness, again and again.
> 
> In Khadr, the Liberals see the chance to show they are so tolerant they are even willing to kowtow to a Muslim with a terrorism conviction.


Related:

Ralph Goodale our own 'Comical Ali'



> Listening to Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale blame Stephen Harper for the fact the Liberals just gave an apology and $10.5 million to Omar Khadr reminds me of listening to Baghdad Bob during the Iraq war.
> 
> Baghdad Bob (aka “Comical Ali”) was the Iraqi information minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, who became globally infamous for his daily summations of the war, which had no basis in reality, and which provoked international ridicule every time he spoke.
> 
> Goodale — let’s call him “Roaring Ralph” — with an assist from Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould, approached Baghdad Bob levels of disinformation last week as they executed the Trudeau government’s strategy of blaming Harper for the Khadr mess the Liberals created.
> 
> “The Harper government refused to repatriate Mr. Khadr or otherwise resolve the matter. They could have, but they didn’t,” Goodale declared.
> 
> Except Goodale omitted that in so doing, Harper was merely continuing the policy of the Jean Chretien/Paul Martin Liberal governments from 2002 until they lost power in 2006.
> 
> The Liberals made no effort to repatriate Khadr.


Yep.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Liberals miscalculated on Khadr settlement


Reminds me of the old glory days of the WWF when Nikolai Volkoff used to act incensed when the crowd wouldn't join him in singing the Russian national anthem. That was funny schtick, but Trudeau is really scratching that empty noggin of his regarding the backlash.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> ...Trudeau is really scratching that empty noggin of his regarding the backlash.


Butts dropped the ball here.

Damn those ill-informed handlers!


----------



## FeXL

AN OUTRAGED CANADIAN bought this full page ad in the 'Toronto Sun'


----------



## FeXL

This First Nations woman refuses to let Ottawa help hide her band's finances



> Charmaine’s victory puts pressure on Indigenous and Northern Affairs Minister Carolyn Bennett. The minister can leave grassroots citizens to ask the courts to enforce the legislation while the government does nothing. She can weaken the legislation to darken this newfound transparency. Or she can enforce the legislation and strengthen it with new protections such as an auditor general for First Nations communities.


Observation: There are those on the left here who rend hair because Trump won't reveal his tax forms, an act which is entirely voluntary. Curiously, these very same people are dead silent on Native Bands who outright flaunt the selfsame accountability, albeit illegally, in Canada.

Curious, no?


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Looks like you'll get your chance to boo him in person...*. :lmao:
> 
> *Justin Trudeau will attend Calgary Stampede after initially bucking event*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CBC)​


May still be up in the air. Will he be able to find a Liberal who can tell him where Calgary is?


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> May still be up in the air. Will he be able to find a Liberal who can tell him where Calgary is?


Yep! They'll be able to suss that out. That's where all the transfer payment cash comes from...


----------



## CubaMark

*If you ask me, her talents are wasted in this position, unless she plans to be a far more visible GG....*

*Former astronaut Julie Payette to be Canada's next governor general*










Former astronaut Julie Payette will be the Queen's new representative in Canada, CBC News has confirmed.

The 53-year-old Montrealer, who speaks six languages, will be named the 29th governor general, a position that comes with a $290,660 annual salary and an official residence at Rideau Hall.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will make the announcement Thursday.

** * **​
Payette, who is also an accomplished athlete, pianist and choral singer, will succeed outgoing Gov. Gen. David Johnston

A computer engineer with a commercial pilot licence, Payette was picked from among 5,330 applicants in 1992 to be one of four new astronauts with the Canadian Space Agency.

She participated in two space flights to the International Space Station and served as the CSA's chief astronaut between 2000 and 2007.

(CBC)​


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Whatever your views may be on abortion and contraception, imagine what a billion and a half bucks could do in our own country, instead of p!$$ing it away on primitive patriarchal cultures practicing antediluvian religions that have zero interest in change...

Canada to provide a whopping $241.5 million for overseas abortions, contraception 



> The Justin Trudeau Liberals will pour $241.5 million into providing and promoting contraception and abortion in developing nations — particularly in Africa — as part of their commitment to securing global access to “sexual and reproductive health and rights.”


And what the hell are we doing giving $20 million to the Clinton Graft Foundation?



> However, we have real concerns with plans announced Tuesday by the Liberal government to hand $20 million over to the Clinton Foundation to “support projects that will provide critical sexual and reproduction health (SRH) services” around the world.


Just shaking my head...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Among other things...

Terry Glavin: Khadr's payout looks to Canadians like it's burying a Liberal scandal



> The Angus Reid poll found 91 per cent of Conservative voters said the Trudeau government did the “wrong thing” in settling with Khadr. But 61 per cent of Liberals took the same view, and 64 per cent of New Democrats also agreed that the government “should have fought the case and left it to the courts to decide.” That is precisely what Conservative leader Andrew Scheer has been saying.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> However, we have real concerns with plans announced Tuesday by the Liberal government to hand $20 million over to the Clinton Foundation to “support projects that will provide critical sexual and reproduction health (SRH) services” around the world.


Sexual education personally overseen by that old horndog, Bill Clinton hisself...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Sexual education personally overseen by that old horndog, Bill Clinton hisself...


Chapters 1-6, "Avoiding Sex With My Wife"; Chapter 13, "Hammering Away On The Resolute Desk"; Chapter 27, "Using Your Intern As A Humidor"; Chapter 27 supplement, "Redefining What The Word 'is' Is"; Chapter 33, "My Wife's Obsession With Rugs"; Chapters 39-52, "Avoiding Sex With My Wife, The Later Years"; and finally, Chapter 69, "Not Even Viagra Works Anymore".

The iron...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

On the July 1 celebration in Ottawa.

Steyn nails it.

The First Post-National Holiday



> Justin Trudeau has moved on - he's getting an honorary degree from Edinburgh University for being nice to Syrian refugees (like this one) - and his Scottish hosts are even less interested in Canada's sesquicentennial than Canadians turned out to be. Nevertheless, the complete stinkeroo Justin's Liberals made of the anniversary is fascinating, and revealing about the state of civilizational self-loathing that afflicts the west's political class. It is in that sense relevant beyond Canada - not just for the other settler nations of the Anglosphere, and the mother country itself, but for all kinds of other places - Sweden, for example - where the breezy assumption is that things that were once taken for granted can be dismantled and shuffled around without consequence as easily as modular furniture from Ikea.
> 
> *Of the weekend's belly flop there can be no doubt.*


Yep. My bold.


----------



## FeXL

As opposed to The Hairdo, _very_ prime ministerial.

Former PM Stephen Harper reaches out to Khadr victim 



> First it was a Toronto Sun reader buying a full-page advertisement to apologize to Omar Khadr’s victims for the eight-figure settlement he received from the Canadian government.
> 
> Now former prime minister Stephen Harper has reached out to the families to express his outrage.
> 
> Upset about the Liberal government’s $10.5-million settlement with Khadr, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s predecessor picked up the phone Wednesday and called American soldier Layne Morris at his home in Utah.


More:



> “He was very nice,” she said of Harper. “Prime Minister Harper apologized for the payout to Omar.”
> 
> And although he appreciated the former prime minister saying that, Morris said it was not necessary.
> 
> *“Layne told him he did not need an apology because he knows the heart of the Canadian people and understands it’s the government and the current prime minister’s doing,”* Leisl said.


M'bold.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> As opposed to The Hairdo, _very_ prime ministerial.
> 
> 
> 
> Former PM Stephen Harper reaches out to Khadr victim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.



If it wasn't for Mr. Harper's obstinacy, the sum could have have considerably less.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> If it wasn't for Mr. Harper's obstinacy, the sum could have have considerably less.


If it wasn't for the Hairdoo's stupidity, they would have contested the amount in court. It is unlikely any court would award such an amount according to many legal experts who have spoken out on the matter.


----------



## Macfury

Might as well settle out of court on all people with terror ties. Could save big money!



Freddie_Biff said:


> If it wasn't for Mr. Harper's obstinacy, the sum could have have considerably less.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Sexual education personally overseen by that old horndog, Bill Clinton hisself...


$20 Mill$ to a foundation infamous for its charitable donations to Clinton Cronies.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> If it wasn't for the Hairdoo's stupidity, they would have contested the amount in court. It is unlikely any court would award such an amount according to many legal experts who have spoken out on the matter.



Such as?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Might as well settle out of court on all people with terror ties. Could save big money!



A 15 year old Canadian tortured for years in Gitmo without even being charged is a pretty rare occurrence, fortunately. Not many other cases like it, if any. The question is whether his Charter rights were violated. The Supreme Court has already ruled that they were. How much more money did you reckon the gov't should be spending on unwinnable appeals? I thought libertarians were supposed to be frugal.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> A 15 year old Canadian tortured for years in Gitmo without even being charged is a pretty rare occurrence, fortunately. Not many other cases like it, if any. The question is whether his Charter rights were violated. The Supreme Court has already ruled that they were. How much more money did you reckon the gov't should be spending on unwinnable appeals? I thought libertarians were supposed to be frugal.


So should each of the million + Canadians whose Charter rights were violated by the Harpoon signing the FATCA-IGA, also get $10,000,000???


----------



## Freddie_Biff

I'm not sure FATCA equals torture in Gitmo, but yer damn right the people affected should be compensated. My friend is one of them. He happened to be born in the US and came to Canada as an infant, but he still has to pay tax to Uncle Sam. Complete bull**** is what it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> How much more money did you reckon the gov't should be spending on unwinnable appeals? I thought libertarians were supposed to be frugal.


Libertarians don't want to set a precedent to hand out cash to relieve the guilt that haunts progressives each day of their lives. That should be paid for as therapy out of progs' own pockets.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Such as?


Such as this that you obviously are unaware of for one. Like I said, many legal types believe Khadar would never be awarded $10.5m by the courts, so the Liberals 'we saved money by paying' is pure BS.

Michelle Rempel: Why would Trudeau pay Khadr $10-million before having a court weigh in? | National Post


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> I'm not sure FATCA equals torture in Gitmo, but yer damn right the people affected should be compensated. My friend is one of them. He happened to be born in the US and came to Canada as an infant, but he still has to pay tax to Uncle Sam. Complete bull**** is what it is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then you have never looked at a form 3520, knowing if you make an error it could cost you your entire life savings. Just one of several forms tainted Canadian citizens must navigate with similar Draconian penalties. For many at a time in life when they are to old to start over. 

The mental anguish caused by the Harpoon's treachery is unimaginable to those who have not experienced it. But if you compensate each of them as generously as Khadr, it will cost the nation and its taxpayers at least $10 Trillion dollars.


----------



## FeXL

Curious, the Liberals before Harper did nothing.

Why is it now such a social justice issue?

As to your argument about saving taxpayers' money, that dog don't hunt, either. Among others, nearly half a million bucks was spent chasing down Duffy's $90K & not a word out of you.

Try again?



Freddie_Biff said:


> If it wasn't for Mr. Harper's obstinacy, the sum could have have considerably less.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Then you have never looked at a form 3520, knowing if you make an error it could cost you your entire life savings. Just one of several forms tainted Canadian citizens must navigate with similar Draconian penalties. For many at a time in life when they are to old to start over.
> 
> The mental anguish caused by the Harpoon's treachery is unimaginable to those who have not experienced it. But if you compensate each of them as generously as Khadr, it will cost the nation and its taxpayers at least $10 Trillion dollars.




Sense; FATCA makes no. Thanks, Harpoon.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Curious, the Liberals before Harper did nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it now such a social justice issue?
> 
> 
> 
> As to your argument about saving taxpayers' money, that dog don't hunt, either. Among others, nearly half a million bucks was spent chasing down Duffy's $90K & not a word out of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Try again?




$90 k vs. $10.3 million?


----------



## macintosh doctor

Freddie_Biff said:


> $90 k vs. $10.3 million?


the 90k was not tax payer funded.. LOL 
it was a friend to friend transaction. lol


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> $90 k vs. $10.3 million?


The 90K was not funded by taxpayers. The Million was.


----------



## FeXL

What's your point? 



Freddie_Biff said:


> $90 k vs. $10.3 million?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

macintosh doctor said:


> the 90k was not tax payer funded.. LOL
> 
> it was a friend to friend transaction. lol



According to Macfury, all civil servant jobs are paid by tax dollars; therefore it was tax payer funded. If you believe Macfury speaks truthfully anyway.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> What's your point?



Order of magnitude. What's yours?


----------



## Macfury

Wright was independently wealthy before taking the job. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> According to Macfury, all civil servant jobs are paid by tax dollars; therefore it was tax payer funded. If you believe Macfury speaks truthfully anyway.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Wright was independently wealthy before taking the job.



Mm-hmm. Was Wright not reimbursed?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Mm-hmm. Was Wright not reimbursed?


Yep. With money from the Conservative party, not government money.


----------



## FeXL

Same thing.

Half a million $ was spent chasing $90K. Roughly 5.5 x.

Do you think Khadr's court case would have cost $58 million? Yeah, me neither...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Order of magnitude. What's yours?


----------



## FeXL

Good luck with that, Rex...

Rex Murphy: Trudeau must explain how Khadr payout was ever the honourable option



> Honour doesn’t hide or speak from behind a curtain. If our “just society” is proud of doing the right thing when “it’s difficult,” why hasn’t the Prime Minister, on so central a subject, dedicated one specific appearance to explaining it?


'Cause he didn't have a commemorative pair of socks to wear to the announcement with, Rex.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

'Cause rules are for the little people...

Video of Canada’s defence minister Harjit Singh Sajjan littering goes viral



> There is no escaping the sharp eyes of the mobile phone or the wrath of social media thereafter, and the latest to feel the heat is Canada’s defence minister Harjit Singh Sajjan. The politician was recently filmed littering the road while parked outside a meat shop, and the video has since gone viral.
> 
> Sajjan was enjoying some cherries in his car, when a man – who owned the East Indian Meat Shop nearby filmed him from inside his shop – throwing the cherry pits out on the road.


----------



## minstrel

I've thrown apple cores, banana peels, cherry pits, all kinds of compostables/detritus from my car window. Thank goodness I'm not so recognizable that some effwad with a cell phone felt the need to record it and post it to "go viral". Please tell me there are more important things on which the minds here can concentrate. Or are "party lines" and "left/right" so important that we must follow blindly?!

We are better than that, aren't we?


----------



## eMacMan

minstrel said:


> I've thrown apple cores, banana peels, cherry pits, all kinds of compostables/detritus from my car window. Thank goodness I'm not so recognizable that some effwad with a cell phone felt the need to record it and post it to "go viral". Please tell me there are more important things on which the minds here can concentrate. Or are "party lines" and "left/right" so important that we must follow blindly?!
> 
> We are better than that, aren't we?


Ditto, but not when any one is close enough to witness it. Outrage over minor s#!t like this diminishes the effect when genuine anger is warranted.


----------



## Macfury

I have to agree that it isn't a big deal for me. Cherry pits even less offensive than candy bar wrappers for example. However, in a world where the size of every last scoop of ice cream eaten by Donald Trump is negative news, people will adopt the same tactics with the left.


----------



## FeXL

minstrel said:


> I've thrown apple cores, banana peels, cherry pits, all kinds of compostables/detritus from my car window.
> 
> ...
> 
> We are better than that, aren't we?


I don't.

And, yes, I believe that makes me better.


----------



## minstrel

OK. That sure put me in my place. Thank you.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I don't.
> 
> And, yes, I believe that makes me better.


I have never thrown anything out of the car window either. Anathema to me.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

minstrel said:


> OK. That sure put me in my place. Thank you.



I figure if it's biodegradable, it's less of a problem than, say, plastic. Also, cigarette butts should NEVER be thrown out a car window, and it's still the one I see most often.


----------



## SINC

The wife and I have carried a small garbage bag inside all our vehicles for over 50 years now. It's so easy to use one and then dispose of it later, one is left to wonder why we all cannot use this simple but effective method.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> The wife and I have carried a small garbage bag inside all our vehicles for over 50 years now. It's so easy to use one and then dispose of it later, one is left to wonder why we all cannot use this simple but effective method.




^^^^


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> The wife and I have carried a small garbage bag inside all our vehicles for over 50 years now. It's so easy to use one and then dispose of it later, one is left to wonder why we all cannot use this simple but effective method.


At any given time we'll have 3 or 4 or more leftover plastic grocery bags in the center console or glovebox of every vehicle we own specifically for that purpose. Even have a couple in the Hawg.


----------



## FeXL

When even the Red Star is taking note...

Canadian girls are being taken abroad to undergo female genital mutilation, documents reveal



> Thousands of Canadian girls are at risk of female genital mutilation, government officials believe. And some are being taken overseas to have the dangerous procedure done — an illegal act known as “vacation cutting.”


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> At any given time we'll have 3 or 4 or more leftover plastic grocery bags in the center console or glovebox of every vehicle we own specifically for that purpose. Even have a couple in the Hawg.


I would feel like crap if I threw something out the car window. Gave a passenger total hell for doing it once.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> At any given time we'll have 3 or 4 or more leftover plastic grocery bags in the center console or glovebox of every vehicle we own specifically for that purpose. Even have a couple in the Hawg.




Something on which we agree. Scary.


----------



## FeXL

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every so often...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Something on which we agree. Scary.


----------



## FeXL

Further from the Religion of Peace.

Arrest Warrant Issued in Montreal for Hate-Preaching Imam



> A Quebec judge has issued a warrant for the arrest of Palestinian-Jordanian Imam Sheikh Muhammad ibn Musa Al Nasr following a B'nai Brith complaint. During a sermon, Al Nasr called Jews "the worst of mankind" and expressed his hope that Muslims would slaughter them on Judgment Day.


----------



## FeXL

The iron...

Sperm Bank Standard



> In 2012, the CSA went in a new direction, they issued a standard called Tissues for Assisted Reproduction. The word “tissues,” in this case, means “sperm.” They issued a masturbation standard.
> 
> Specifically, this new standard “is intended to serve as a benchmark” for “retrieval” of “reproductive tissue” and its subsequent “processing, preservation,” etc.
> 
> This is quite a departure from their legal mandate. Quoting that mandate, the CSA exists as a Crown Agency to “coordinate [the] standardization of engineering materials [in relation to] engineering structures.”


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The iron...
> 
> 
> 
> Sperm Bank Standard



So, a spank bank really.


----------



## FeXL

Cultural Appropriation!!! Where's the hue & cry from the left?!

Toronto 2017 North American Indigenous Games

Badminton, baseball, basketball, golf. The horror!!! 

And rifle shooting!!! :yikes:

h/t HoM.


----------



## FeXL

Wait for it...

Thieves stole a backpack from a 7-11 that turned out to be an IED, and police are being very quiet about it



> Four Canadians were set on fire — and two are fighting for their lives... — after a backpack they stole from outside a Winnipeg 7-11 detonated just before midnight last Saturday night.


Related:

Bomb injured four 'unintended victims' in Winnipeg



> A bomb exploded in a residential Winnipeg neighbourhood late Saturday night, Winnipeg police confirmed, answering a question on the front of many minds after a truck carrying four passengers spontaneously burst into flames.
> 
> During a media briefing Tuesday, Const. Rob Carver explained investigators have so far determined the fire originated inside the cab, and it "appears to have come from an improvised explosive device (IED) that was detonated accidentally."


----------



## FeXL

Sure. Immediately after _every_ reserve releases it's financials for scrutiny...

Legal weed could be a conduit to reconciliation, says former AFN chief



> OTTAWA — Former Assembly of First Nations chief Phil Fontaine says his pitch to produce medical marijuana on reserves is getting lots of attention from Indigenous communities hoping to get into a potentially lucrative industry.
> 
> About 100 First Nation communities and business interests are keen on the enterprise, he told the National Post this week, though some stigma remains around cannabis and its production.


As far as the alleged conciliation angle is concerned, riiiiiight...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Too bad he didn't host any town hall meetings for Khadr. What a joke...

Trudeau Wants Town Halls To Shore Up Support For NAFTA



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is reaching for one of his favorite political tools in the renegotiation of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA): town hall meetings.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Liberal government does not have a lot of time to organize the town hall meetings. The renegotiation of the agreement will probably commence by mid-August leaving little time for personal interaction.


Hell, that leaves at least three whole weeks for the dog & pony show! What's the issue?


----------



## macintosh doctor

just as i thought it was safe to leave my house.. the liberals get even more perverse - they over turn charges against a man forcing a dog to have sex on his step daughter. 
Liberal Canada Legalized Bestiality - Which Animals Are Most At Risk?


----------



## FeXL

macintosh doctor said:


> just as i thought it was safe to leave my house.. the liberals get even more perverse - they over turn charges against a man forcing a dog to have sex on his step daughter.


Nice...

(is the /sarc tag really needed here?)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Here's one more. You can be tracked for all your behaviour, free, by the Liberal gov't. If you do good (as in gov't approved behaviour) you get a carrot.

Woohoo... XX)

Creepy Canadian App Gives Citizens Points for Making Government-Approved Choices



> Ontario announced earlier this month that it will become the fourth Canadian government to fund a behavioral modification application that rewards users for making “good choices” in regards to health, finance, and the environment. The Carrot Rewards smartphone app, which will receive $1.5 million from the Ontario government, credits users’ accounts with points toward the reward program of their choice in exchange for reaching step goals, taking quizzes and surveys, and engaging in government-approved messages.


Thanks but, no thanks.

Hey, I know! The first approved behaviour is to purchase Juthdin's shiny new potato, I mean, calendar!!!

Justin Trudeau, My Boyfriend 2018 Wall Calendar now for sale



> The calendar features 12 images “Yucon” enjoy of model-like role-model Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Featuring sweetly off-kilter but well-meaning commentary about his views from his sparkling blue eyes on everything from love, family and of course global affairs and economic growth, it is a true celebration of the man, the myth, and the meme that is Justin Trudeau.
> 
> If you’re not right in the head, buy here.


The man, the myth, the legend...I mean, the substitute drama teacher & snowboard instructor.

Gag me with a 2x4...


----------



## SINC

Wildrose, Progressive Conservatives hold vote on party merger | Edmonton Journal

95 % in favour.


----------



## CubaMark

macintosh doctor said:


> just as i thought it was safe to leave my house.. the liberals get even more perverse - they over turn charges against a man forcing a dog to have sex on his step daughter.
> Liberal Canada Legalized Bestiality - Which Animals Are Most At Risk?


The decision is on the face of it ridiculous, regardless of whether the specific legal code was insufficiently specific.

But how on earth do you feel you can get away with saying "the liberals" "over turn charges" when it was the Supreme Court justices who made the decision?

Seems like quite the reach to me....


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Congrats to the new You See Pee party of Alberta (though some of us just see the same old BS). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

You soon won't be seeing Notley!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Congrats to the new You See Pee party of Alberta (though some of us just see the same old BS).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You soon won't be seeing Notley!




I will for at least two more years, and more importantly, so will you.


----------



## Rps

macintosh doctor said:


> just as i thought it was safe to leave my house.. the liberals get even more perverse - they over turn charges against a man forcing a dog to have sex on his step daughter.
> Liberal Canada Legalized Bestiality - Which Animals Are Most At Risk?


Not wishing to be argumentative but if one reads the SCOC ruling you might find a slightly less yellow view. https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/15991/index.do?r=AAAAAQAKQmVzdGlhbGl0eQE


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Wildrose, Progressive Conservatives hold vote on party merger | Edmonton Journal
> 
> 95 % in favour.


Hi Sinc, what was the total number of eligible voters in each party, do you know. It looks like the WP has about 50,000 members with 1/2 voting. The PCs had about 25,000 voters but how many party members did they have?


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Hi Sinc, what was the total number of eligible voters in each party, do you know. It looks like the WP has about 50,000 members with 1/2 voting. The PCs had about 25,000 voters but how many party members did they have?


PC turnout was 55% so very similar. Both parties 95% in favour as well.


----------



## Dr.G.

Calgary veteran who survived Dunkirk causes a stir at movie premiere | Globalnews.ca

Lest we forget. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## SINC

Wonderful PM, that Hairdoo:

*BETRAYAL: Trudeau Removing Warning Against FGM & Honour Killings From Citizenship Guide*

https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...arning-fgm-honour-killings-citizenship-guide/


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Wonderful PM, that Hairdoo:
> 
> *BETRAYAL: Trudeau Removing Warning Against FGM & Honour Killings From Citizenship Guide*
> 
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...arning-fgm-honour-killings-citizenship-guide/


Spencer Fernando? Really? FeXL's influence on your source list is quite disheartening, SINC.

In any case... howzabout y'all wait until the final version of this is released before getting your dander up? The document referenced is a "draft", a "working copy", which is being tossed around through many (all?) government departments for wide input. 

And even *if* this *guide* doesn't include those specific items in the final version, let's remember that this is a *guide*. It's not a set of laws. It's not *GASP* _Sharia Law_. FGM and honour killings will remain illegal in Canada, and immigrants are expected to know & understand the laws of Canada and abide by them.

But hey, don't let facts distract folks from getting themselves all enraged....


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Wonderful PM, that Hairdoo:
> 
> *BETRAYAL: Trudeau Removing Warning Against FGM & Honour Killings From Citizenship Guide*
> 
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...arning-fgm-honour-killings-citizenship-guide/





CubaMark said:


> Spencer Fernando? Really? FeXL's influence on your source list is quite disheartening, SINC.
> 
> In any case... howzabout y'all wait until the final version of this is released before getting your dander up? The document referenced is a "draft", a "working copy", which is being tossed around through many (all?) government departments for wide input.
> 
> And even *if* this *guide* doesn't include those specific items in the final version, let's remember that this is a *guide*. It's not a set of laws. It's not *GASP* _Sharia Law_. FGM and honour killings will remain illegal in Canada, and immigrants are expected to know & understand the laws of Canada and abide by them.
> 
> But hey, don't let facts distract folks from getting themselves all enraged....


Sorry I took my oath a just few years ago while the conmen were still calling the shots. I cannot recall reading or being informed of these prohibitions.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> Spencer Fernando? Really? FeXL's influence on your source list is quite disheartening, SINC.


Projection
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Not a fan of many of Fexl's sources but, given the last couple I have clicked on from you, this applies.

If we're all going to post links to glorified bloggers as Facts to Consider (not characterized as interesting opinions), maybe spend less time pointing the finger at other people's links. I don't mean no time, to be clear. 

Feel free to criticize my youtuber posts in the context of how I characterize the content. Should be fun. I'm not fragile, but I do bite. beejacon


----------



## CubaMark

Beej said:


> Not a fan of many of Fexl's sources but, given the last couple I have clicked on from you, this applies.


Could you elaborate? Rather unspecific, difficult for anyone to offer a rebuttal.

I've had my shots, FYI 

M


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> Could you elaborate? Rather unspecific, difficult for anyone to offer a rebuttal.
> 
> I've had my shots, FYI
> 
> M


Off the top, I recall commenting on a link about nuclear, and another one that started with a rant (maybe the topic was Trump?). Those would be easiest to find.


----------



## FeXL

Once gain, attack the messenger instead of the message. Typical Prog. Typical CM.

If you would leave MJ every once in a while, you'd see at least a half dozen sources & articles by a varied number of authors saying precisely the same thing.

As a matter of fact, I was going to link to one myself from CTV. Let me guess: they don't fall on the list of Prog Approved sources, either.



CubaMark said:


> Spencer Fernando? Really? FeXL's influence on your source list is quite disheartening, SINC.


As to your observation about: 



> ...immigrants are expected to know & understand the laws of Canada and abide by them.


Yeah, good luck with that:



> *The woman, a recent immigrant from Iran, suffered brutal spousal abuse but didn’t even realize it was against the law.*
> 
> After moving to Canada in 2009 her husband forced the woman, whose identity is protected by the court, to have sex with him by hitting her, pulling her hair, pinching her and forcefully removing her clothes. “She cried out quietly so the children would not hear,” court was told.
> 
> He also slapped, kicked and punched their two sons and hit them with a belt. Once he locked them outside the house on a snowy winter day wearing nothing but shorts and T-shirts until their mother came home and rescued them.
> 
> When the husband was convicted of sexual assault and assault, Justice William Gorewich of Ontario court sentenced him to 18 months, citing mitigating factors that included the lack of a criminal record. *The judge also noted a “significant cultural gap” between behaviour that is accepted in Canada and in Iran, and the “cultural impact” of changing countries.*


My bold.

If it's not to be found in the citizenship guide, where else d'ya s'pose it should be? On the bathroom wall in the girl's change room?


----------



## FeXL

More gov't sanctioned food guidelines to be ignored.

3 Major Food Policy Changes All Canadians Need To Know About Right Now



> The Canadian government has issued new draft healthy eating recommendations, which would overhaul the antiquated system of food categories—focusing instead on eating patterns—and emphasize the importance of including a "high proportion of plant-based foods." The main recommendation is for a "regular intake of vegetables, fruit, whole grains and protein-rich foods, especially plant-based sources of protein." The "milk and alternatives" category is gone in the draft guidelines. *What's more, the draft guide acknowledges the link between food systems and our environment, stating: "diets higher in plant-based foods and lower in animal-based foods are associated with a lesser environmental impact.*"


M'bold.

He says with a gleam in his eye & his gaze at the pork sausage on the cutting board thawing for lunch & the steak ready for supper...

Oh, this is rich:



> Register here and take the short survey *asking what you do and don't like about the draft guidelines* before August 14, 2017.


M'bold.

Huh? Thought there was solid, scientific reasoning behind the guideline. All it is is opinion, garnered from the fruit loops, whackos & Liberal politicians (but I repeat myself) out there?

Further:



> The government is considering a ban on marketing foods with more than 15% DV of saturated fat to kids, which would include cheese and sweetened yogurt. Another option is banning marketing foods with more than 5% DV, which would even catch calorie-reduced cheese.


Coming soon to a supermarket near you: "Fire Sale on gov't banned cheese & yogurt! But do we have a deal on a bowl of Hairdo approved lentils! Buy two, get a pair of organic hemp socks!!!"

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Spare me the lecture, Justin



> Justin Trudeau’s little lecture about what happens in Canada should stay in Canada, and not dished out to American ears, is a bit rich coming from someone who was posing for Vogue magazine within hours of being sworn in as prime minister.
> 
> It was also a bit rich, and incredibly disingenuous, to call the controversy sweeping the country over the Liberals’ $10.5-million payout to Omar Khadr nothing more than a “domestic squabble.” The vast majority of Canadians remain outraged.


----------



## FeXL

Must be more of that multiculturalism at play here...

Suspect in pregnant woman's stabbing charged with first-degree murder of baby



> In what Crown prosecutors described as a rare case, the man arrested after allegedly stabbing his eight-months-pregnant wife in the early hours of Monday morning has been charged with first-degree murder and attempted murder.


More:



> The new charges come less than a month after Ghazi was granted bail while facing assault charges in two other cases, including one in which he’s alleged to have assaulted his wife.
> 
> He was released on June 28 after agreeing to keep the peace, to not go to Raja Ghazi’s apartment without her consent and to not communicate with her. Ghazi had also been ordered to attend therapy sessions at a Montreal rehab centre to help with his addictions. To ensure his release, Raja Ghazi had offered the courts a $500 commitment on behalf of her husband if ever he were to break the conditions.


So, jes' one question...what idiot let this guy back on the streets on a $500 bond?


----------



## Macfury

Even as nutritionists begin to admit their error in demonizing fats and animal proteins.



FeXL said:


> More gov't sanctioned food guidelines to be ignored.
> 
> 3 Major Food Policy Changes All Canadians Need To Know About Right Now
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> He says with a gleam in his eye & his gaze at the pork sausage on the cutting board thawing for lunch & the steak ready for supper...
> 
> Oh, this is rich:
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Huh? Thought there was solid, scientific reasoning behind the guideline. All it is is opinion, garnered from the fruit loops, whackos & Liberal politicians (but I repeat myself) out there?
> 
> Further:
> 
> 
> 
> Coming soon to a supermarket near you: "Fire Sale on gov't banned cheese & yogurt! But do we have a deal on a bowl of Hairdo approved lentils! Buy two, get a pair of organic hemp socks!!!"
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FUXL

Souiee!!! Here piggy wiggies! Souiee!!! Fake Media!!

Justin Trudeau: Canadian Prime Minister, Free World's Best Hope? - Rolling Stone


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Souiee!!! Here piggy wiggies! Souiee!!! Fake Media!!
> 
> 
> 
> Justin Trudeau: Canadian Prime Minister, Free World's Best Hope? - Rolling Stone




I've always enjoyed Rolling Stone, but mostly for its pictorials.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Even as nutritionists begin to admit their error in demonizing fats and animal proteins.


Yep. And eggs & sugar & who knows what the hell else over the years. Idiots, the lot of 'em.

Anything you want & nothing in excess. Common sense...


----------



## FeXL

So, further on the fallout from $15/hr min wages.

Ontario businesses eye fleeing over minimum wage hike



> *One-third of small and medium Ontario businesses are considering selling, moving to the U.S. or closing shop in response to provincial government plans to hike the minimum wage to $15 an hour*, a Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CIFB) poll of its members revealed.


M'bold.

_One-third!!!_ :yikes:

Stunning.

So, those of you who defend $15/hr minimum wages: Tell me again, exactly who does this help & how?

Related:

Robot stockboys to roam aisles at grocery store chain



> Is this the beginning of Skynet? A robot is being hired to help out shoppers at a St. Louis grocery store chain.
> 
> Tally will be working the aisles at Schnucks grocery stores looking for items that are out of stock and checking on prices, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported.


----------



## FeXL

*Hey, because it's 2015!*

Trudeau Government Giving Bombardier $100 Million For Deal In IRAN



> Despite receiving billions of dollars from Canadian taxpayers over the years – *most recently $372.5 million given by Trudeau* – Bombardier’s failed executives gifted themselves massive bonuses and shipped Canadian jobs to other countries including China and Mexico.
> 
> *As if that wasn’t enough, now the Trudeau government is giving them even more.*
> 
> According to a report by the Financial Tribune, the federal government
> 
> 
> 
> “will provide $100 million in finance for a deal between Montreal-based multinational aerospace and transportation company, Bombardier Inc., and Iran’s Qeshm Free Zone Organization for purchasing 10 passenger planes, the FTZ’s chief executive, Hamidreza Momeni, has said.”
Click to expand...

Emphasis from the link.

Nice...


----------



## FeXL

I'm not a warmist so those of you who are can maybe explain this to me...

Hypocrites on climate change – and incompetents 



> Anyone who believes you can’t suck and blow at the same time has never met the Ontario Liberals when they’re explaining their plan to — insert laughter here — “fight” global warming.
> 
> Because of Premier Kathleen Wynne, Ontarians are now paying almost $2 billion more a year, ostensibly to fight climate change, through her cap-and-trade carbon pricing scheme.
> 
> And yet, also thanks to Wynne, we’re about to become part owners of a giant U.S. electricity plant in Montana that consumes one rail car of coal every five minutes, with all the greenhouse gas and pollution problems that entails.
> 
> That’s a circle the Liberals can’t square, and a level of hypocrisy they can’t answer with political spin no matter how hard they try.


----------



## FeXL

A little perspective on our "wunnerful" health care system.

This report just shredded every myth claiming Canadian medicare is superior — or fair



> [T]he prestigious Commonwealth Fund in the U.S. released its most recent update comparing health-care systems in the rich industrialized world. This showed our health-care system, run virtually in its entirety by these effective Canadian public servants, not just below average, but at the bottom of the heap, barely outperforming France and our health-care system’s arch-enemy, the U.S.


Excellent read.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Spare me the lecture, Justin


*Yup.*

*Conservative hypocrisy more damaging than the message: Harper*
*While in government, the Conservatives were the first to howl “treason” when other parties spoke out south of the border — just as the Tories did last week on the Omar Khadr file.*

Let’s cast back a few years, to a long-forgotten episode in the life of the last Stephen Harper government.

Tom Mulcair, then the country’s Opposition leader, landed in Washington for meetings, and in the course of his visit he outlined the NDP view of the Keystone XL pipeline.

He told an American audience that his priority for Canadian energy was an east-west pipeline, that Keystone would export Canadian jobs and the NDP would do a better job than Harper in building support for pipelines.

The Conservative government of the day reacted as if Mulcair should be shipped back north of the border in leg irons and shackles.

A senior minister of the day, John Baird, accused Mulcair of “trash talking” and “badmouthing” Canada.

Another former minister, Joe Oliver, marched to the microphones in the Commons foyer to denounce Mulcair for not leaving politics at the border. He also took to the keyboard for the Globe and Mail to tell the country “a responsible politician would not travel to a foreign capital to score cheap political points.”

Baird and Oliver are gone, but Michelle Rempel and Peter Kent were part of that government. It appears they missed Oliver’s op-ed.

(MetroNews)​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Yup.*


The only difference is that Mulcair remains a massive dickwad.


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> The only difference is that Mulcair remains a massive dickwad.


You must be jealous "little" man.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The only difference is that Mulcair remains a massive dickwad.



That's the spirit. Keep that language elevated.


----------



## Macfury

Never been jealous of wads. Are you?



FUXL said:


> You must be jealous "little" man.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's the spirit. Keep that language elevated.


I've never been opposed to casual vulgarities on the board. But I won't engage in the type of words you use. Must maintain my standards


----------



## Macfury

No Quebec company will fail on Trudeau's watch. 



> Souieeeeee!





FeXL said:


> Emphasis from the link.
> 
> Nice...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The only difference is that Mulcair remains a massive dickwad.


I'd disagree here.

Kent's purpose was to inform of an actual event.

Mulcair's intent was mere speculation & purely politicking.

I see a difference.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Juthdin's RS article.

A few things in Rolling Stone's profile of Justin Trudeau that were just plain wrong



> The online version of the cover story was widely mocked Wednesday morning for its fawning coverage of Trudeau and gratuitous comparisons to Trump — it also got a number of things wrong


In addition, hey, if they want 'im, I'll help him move...


----------



## Macfury

I see your point... and that these points do not negate my original point, only add to it.



FeXL said:


> I'd disagree here.
> 
> Kent's purpose was to inform of an actual event.
> 
> Mulcair's intent was mere speculation & purely politicking.
> 
> I see a difference.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I see your point... and that these points do not negate my original point, only add to it.


No argument.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I've never been opposed to casual vulgarities on the board. But I won't engage in the type of words you use. Must maintain my standards




So, hypocrite much?


----------



## Macfury

No, not at all. I would be ashamed to use the words you use here in public.



Freddie_Biff said:


> So, hypocrite much?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> No, not at all. I would be ashamed to use the words you use here in public.




But you're okay with "casual vulgarities"—as long as you're the who gets to make them. MF, you can be quite the MoFo.


----------



## FeXL

Must be more of that forum etiquette you were talking about... :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> But you're okay with "casual vulgarities"—as long as you're the who gets to make them. MF, you can be quite the MoFo.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Must be more of that forum etiquette you were talking about... :lmao:



You know, I've never had a problem with vulgarities. Just the hypocrites who seem to think their ****e don't stink. So to speak.


----------



## FeXL

There's two hypocrites on these boards. One who openly acknowledges it, the other is still in denial.

I ain't one of 'em...



Freddie_Biff said:


> You know, I've never had a problem with vulgarities. Just the hypocrites who seem to think their ****e don't stink. So to speak.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> There's two hypocrites on these boards. One who openly acknowledges it, the other is still in denial.
> 
> 
> 
> I ain't one of 'em...




FeXL, you're the biggest hypocrite who's ever posted on ehMac. But as long as you have a healthy self-concept, what does the truth matter?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> FeXL, you're the biggest hypocrite who's ever posted on ehMac. But as long as you have a healthy self-concept, what does the truth matter?


FeXl makes a good point, He's never been hypocritical--the difference between saying something and doing something. It's your roller coaster attitudes toward civility and decorum that make you a hypocrite.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Well would you look at that? Those NDP in Alberta are doing something right after all according to the Calgary Herald. 



> From worst to first: Alberta reclaims lead in Canadian growth survey
> 
> Published on: July 28, 2017 | Last Updated: July 28, 2017 7:56 AM MDT
> Part of the Esso Strathcona Refinery in Edmonton at sunset. By Greg Quinn and Catarina Saraiva
> Alberta’s economy is more than just back on its feet, it’s about to run faster than any other region in Canada.
> 
> Gross domestic product in the western province will rise by 2.9 percent this year, according to a Bloomberg survey of economists, up from an April estimate of 2.5 percent. That matches forecasts for neighbouring British Columbia, and in 2018 Alberta comes out on top with a 2.4 percent expansion that would be tops among Canada’s 10 provinces.
> 
> It’s a huge comeback from Alberta’s last place finish in each of the last two years when oil prices plummeted below $50 a barrel, triggering layoffs and an investment freeze that shrank GDP by about 4 percent. The rebound is another sign Canada may retain its top spot among Group of Seven nations as economic growth diversifies away from consumer spending.
> 
> ”Everyone should feel good about it, not just Alberta,” Bank of Nova Scotia deputy chief economist Brett House said by phone Wednesday from Toronto. “The Canadian economy is firing on all cylinders.”
> Growth forecasts for this year were lifted in every province in the latest Bloomberg survey that was taken July 7-14. The 2018 survey shows growth is forecast for every province, which would be the first time that’s happened since 2011.
> 
> Alberta still stands out as the biggest surprise contributor.
> 
> Factory sales in Alberta have climbed 18 percent in May from a year earlier. Retail sales are up 9 percent as unemployment fell to 7.4 percent in June from a peak of 9 percent in November, and as government deficit spending gives household budgets a boost. Average weekly wages rose on a 12-month basis by the most in more than two years with a gain of 1.7 percent, Statistics Canada reported Thursday.
> 
> Those gains come on top of an energy industry where oil and gas drilling is rising again as companies lowered their break-even costs. To date, the average number of active Canadian oil rigs is nearly double what it was a year ago, and Alberta construction is also being aided by rebuilding after wildfires last year.
> 
> ‘Consistent’ Growth
> 
> Newfoundland and Labrador, another province tied to oil through offshore drilling, is now expected to grow 0.8 percent next year instead of the 0.1 percent contraction economists projected in April.
> 
> “You really are seeing more consistent growth which I think is better from a national perspective,” said Michael Dolega at Toronto-Dominion Bank. “It makes things easier as far as policy makers are concerned, especially for the Bank of Canada.”
> 
> Governor Stephen Poloz raised interest rates for the first time in seven years on July 12 citing a broad recovery and investors predict another move in October. One complication that could arise would be if a rising Canadian dollar and borrowing costs took a big hold on weaker regions of the economy.
> The full recovery in Alberta still has some ways to go. Even if output grows as economists expect in 2017, the province’s gross domestic product would remain about 5 percent lower than its peak in 2014, before oil prices collapsed. And the jobless rate was regularly less than 5 percent before the oil crash.
> 
> More Stable
> 
> “It’s been a stronger bounce back than people were expecting but it’s still not a full recovery yet,” Nathan Janzen, senior economist at Royal Bank of Canada, said by phone from Toronto. Royal Bank boosted the Alberta growth call for this year to 2.9 percent from 2.1 percent, the most among the 11 responses in the Bloomberg survey.Alberta’s growth prospects are more stable now that companies have made some progress in competing with lower oil prices brought on by the emergence of shale oil production in the U.S., economists said. That tougher competition also means that the boom times that drew tens of thousands of workers from across Canada probably won’t return soon, says Brendan LaCerda at Moody’s Analytics.
> 
> ”They tumbled so hard and they are bouncing back now,” LaCerda said. “They can throw a small party, the worst is over.”
> 
> –With assistance from Erik Hertzberg


http://calgaryherald.com/business/l...b-c-to-reclaim-lead-in-canadian-growth-survey


----------



## SINC

The ecoomy did that all on its own in spite of the debt load the Dippers have imposed on Alberta. Watch their policies get rejected in about 21 months with no plan to repay the massive bills they have run up.


----------



## Macfury

All I see in that report is that oil prices have gone up somewhat, and that the NDP is borrowing money to give the economy a fake short-term boost.


----------



## 18m2

Trudeau sends 2 million to support Italian earthquake victims but won't match donations for BC wild fires ... athole!

Trudeau urges Canadians to give to B.C. wildfires fund, but feds aren't matching donations - Politics - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

So, exactly _which_ EnDeePee policy has encouraged growth in Alberta? Be specific...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Well would you look at that? Those NDP in Alberta are doing something right after all according to the Calgary Herald.


----------



## FeXL

So, I recall a conversation on these boards some time back with a certain little Prog drummer boy about safe injection sites & all the people he knew who had been _saved_ by them...

Drug Deaths Skyrocket In Vancouver Despite Legal Injection Sites



> Despite having two drug injection sites that the Trudeau government insists “save lives,” people continue to die of drug overdoses at record rates in Vancouver, British Columbia. *During the first half of 2017, 780 people have died from using illegal drugs — 88 percent more than the same period in 2016.*


M'bold.

Anybody else want to pick up that banner?


----------



## FeXL

I've posted a few articles from RestoreCSA & their fight with CSA. The incompetence exhibited by the CSA (even for a typical gov't dep't) is stunning, even to my untrained eye. The linked article goes on at length to provide an explanation for this phenomenon and there were several of the statements that just stood for me, for...alternative reasons. 

Kruger and Dunning; Grey and Berry



> Rarely do organizations make so many misfires as the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). In the CSA’s war of litigations against PS Knight, they have consistently miscalculated in their legal decisions, if they calculated at all, and miscalibrated their assessments throughout.
> 
> ...
> 
> How could they be so oblivious, so routinely, and yet believe themselves to be so professional?
> 
> ...
> 
> The American Psychological Association published a study on this phenomenon in 1999, in a paper entitled; Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments.
> 
> The authors of the paper, Justin Kruger and David Dunning, both then of Cornell University, argued that *“when people are incompetent in the strategies they adopt to achieve success and satisfaction, they suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it. Instead, […], they are left with the mistaken impression that they are doing just fine. “*
> 
> ...
> 
> The paper continues; “Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria.”
> *“Incompetent individuals will be less able than their more competent peers to gain insight into their true level of performance by means of social comparison information. In particular, because of their difficulty recognizing competence in others, incompetent individuals will be unable to use information about the choices and performances of others to form more accurate impressions of their own ability.”*
> 
> ...
> 
> As Kruger and Dunning put it; *“we predicted that those who proved to be incompetent (i.e., those who scored in the bottom quarter of the distribution) would be unaware that they had performed poorly. […] “Indeed, across the four studies, participants in the bottom quartile not only overestimated themselves, but thought they were above-average.”*
> 
> *“The thing about bozos is that bozos don’t know they’re bozos,” said Lyon. “Bozos think they’re the sh*t, which makes them really annoying but also incredibly entertaining, depending on your point of view.”*


All bold mine.

:yikes:

I'll leave it at that...


----------



## FeXL

Time to worry, Ontario electricity users



> It was nice to hear from Ontario Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault on Tuesday that Ontario will only buy hydro power from Hydro Quebec if it’s a good deal for the taxpayers of Ontario.
> 
> Sadly, his resolve comes almost a decade too late to do Ontarians much good, because that’s never been the policy of the McGuinty-Wynne Liberal government up to now.
> 
> This given that they’ve already wasted $9.2 billion of our money paying inflated prices for unreliable and unnecessary wind and solar power for 20 years — according to Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk.


----------



## FeXL

My tax dollars at work.

US Has Significant Questions About Canadian Meat Inspection



> The U.S. Agriculture Department has found “systemic” inspection and sanitation problems during its most recent audit of Canada’s meat, poultry and egg inspection systems, issues American officials say “raise significant questions about the Canadian system.”
> 
> The most “significant” concern, U.S. auditors said, was that Canadian government plant inspectors were not checking for residual feces and digestive waste materials on each carcass in slaughterhouses prior to export.
> 
> “Auditors noted that government inspectors appear to not be conducting carcass-by-carcass post-mortem inspection to ensure freedom from contamination,” noted the audit. Conducted in 2016, it was released this spring but garnered little attention.


More:



> “The inspection staffs go home with their fingers crossed hoping they’re not going to get some bad news because of something they missed,” Kingston said.


Then do your f'ing jobs...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Liberal energy policy is creating regional rifts in Canada



> And when Albertans (and Saskatchewanians) clue in to the fact that their provinces are not recovering (even while other oil-producing regions of the world are), and that the reason is central Canadian electoral politics, the Libs’ tinkering will look like a second coming of the National Energy Program.
> 
> *There is already a growing sentiment in the West that it is us against the middle of the country.*
> 
> Quebec’s Environment minister, Pierre Arcand, recently told Albertans to mind their own business when it comes to drawing a connection between equalization payments and access for oil pipelines. In other words, keep the money flowing to Quebec, but keep your mouths shut about that province’s refusal to give pipeline access.


M'bold.

Newsbreak: It's _always_ been the West vs central Canada.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

_Very_ prime ministerial...

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on... umm.
> 
> [LONG PAUSE]
> 
> North Korea.


More:



> From the responses -- "You'd think a substitute Drama Teacher would have a better vocabulary"


<snort>


----------



## FeXL

Brad Wall stepping down.

Too bad. The last respectable, premier-for-the-people in this country.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Brad Wall stepping down.
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad. The last respectable, premier-for-the-people in this country.




How good can he be if he's a quitter?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> How good can he be if he's a quitter?


Good grief, he served the people of Saskatchewan for 13 years and chose to retire. Gimme a break. He is retiring a perhaps one of the best liked premiers ever to serve in this country.

Speaking of being good, compare that to Notley who will be tossed out like a bag of trash in 21 months.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Good grief, he served the people of Saskatchewan for 13 years and chose to retire. Gimme a break. He is retiring a perhaps one of the best liked premiers ever to serve in this country.
> 
> Speaking of being good, compare that to Notley who will be tossed out like a bag of trash in 21 months.


I agree always thought him to be the last voice of responsible conservatism


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## FeXL

The gum underside his shoe is a better premiere than Red Rachel...



Freddie_Biff said:


> How good can he be if he's a quitter?


Tangentially related, how good was Red Rachel when she becomes the first one-term premiere in Alberta's history?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau, McKenna are ‘reality deniers’



> The Trudeau government loves to call Canadians who do not believe in the science of man-made global warming, “climate deniers.”
> 
> The problem is, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Climate Change Minister Catherine McKenna and the Liberals are “reality deniers.” That is, they simply refuse to acknowledge reality.
> 
> They claim Canada will meet its Paris climate agreement commitment, made by Trudeau in December, 2015, to reduce our industrial greenhouse gas emissions to 30% below 2005 levels by 2030.
> 
> *That means Trudeau, McKenna et al. are claiming that with Canada’s emissions having gone up by 33 megatonnes annually in the seven years between 2009 and 2015, they can reduce them by 205 megatonnes annually in the 15 years between 2016 and 2030.*


M'bold.

Horse feathers & bull pucky.

Liberal politicians have never let a simple thing like facts get in the way of a good tax grab masquerading as virtue signalling...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The gum underside his shoe is a better premiere than Red Rachel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tangentially related, how good was Red Rachel when she becomes the first one-term premiere in Alberta's history?



Tense shift. You seem to have hit a temporal anomaly: "how good was she when she becomes"...


----------



## Macfury

The line was deliberately posted from the position of the future, when Notley has already gone down in flames.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The line was deliberately posted from the position of the future, when Notley has already gone down in flames.



In that case, our learned friend is even more confused than I thought. In any event, "will have become" is the construction for which one is likely searching.


----------



## Macfury

It's more complex than that. There's an implied question:

"Tangentially related, (ask yourself) how good was Red Rachel when she becomes the first one-term premiere in Alberta's history?"

The best part of the sentence, no matter how taken, is that Notley will be flushed out of office in a moment reminiscent of the cleaning of the Augean Stables.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's more complex than that. There's an implied question:
> 
> 
> 
> "Tangentially related, (ask yourself) how good was Red Rachel when she becomes the first one-term premiere in Alberta's history?"
> 
> 
> 
> The best part of the sentence, no matter how taken, is that Notley will be flushed out of office in a moment reminiscent of the cleaning of the Augean Stables.




Weak. You encourage poor grammar. In any event, Jean, Kenney, and AirBnB Fildebrandt are not adequate leadership material, so it doesn't matter much. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

It will look very bad on Notley, should she be decisively flushed away by such inadequate leadership material.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Weak. You encourage poor grammar. In any event, Jean, Kenney, and AirBnB Fildebrandt are not adequate leadership material, so it


Any one of them is head and shoulders above Red Rachel.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Any one of them is head and shoulders above Red Rachel.




Nope. You keep dreaming.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Any one of them is head and shoulders above Red Rachel.


Of course. Alberta already sees this. Just the hard core unionistas left in the cheering section.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Of course. Alberta already sees this. Just the hard core unionistas left in the cheering section.




Again you miss the point. There is nobody TO cheer for on the right. All of the leadership candidates for the UCP lack vision, charisma, and carry tons of baggage with them. There is no viable alternative yet. The NDP's may lose, but if so, who do you think is next?


----------



## Macfury

Do you think people were cheering for Notley? It was a protest vote. 

I think the UCP will form several successive governments. Other than public employees and hard core lefties, who would put up with the current regime?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Again you miss the point. There is nobody TO cheer for on the right. All of the leadership candidates for the UCP lack vision, charisma, and carry tons of baggage with them. There is no viable alternative yet. The NDP's may lose, but if so, who do you think is next?


That's the easiest question you have ever asked! 

Anyone but Notley!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> That's the easiest question you have ever asked!
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone but Notley!



Yup. That reflects the average forethought the average voter on the right puts into the process. Which is why we need more parties on the right, not fewer—Albertans want choice!


----------



## Macfury

When you're drowning and someone offers you a stick to pull yourself out of the water, you don't worry if its maple, oak or elm. If this were a normal election, you would have moire people reflecting on the excellent leadership qualities of the contenders for the UCP. Right now, it's sink or swim.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. That reflects the average forethought the average voter on the right puts into the process. Which is why we need more parties on the right, not fewer—Albertans want choice!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> When you're drowning and someone offers you a stick to pull yourself out of the water, you don't worry if its maple, oak or elm. If this were a normal election, you would have moire people reflecting on the excellent leadership qualities of the contenders for the UCP. Right now, it's sink or swim.



That's a pretty pathetic excuse for how to vote. That's how many elections now in Alberta where voters on the right seemed to "feel they had no choice?" There's Redford, Prentice after the WildRose defectors, the Orange Crush Landslide, and in another two years again in 2019. You'd almost think political contenders on the right just don't have that much to offer.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's a pretty pathetic excuse for how to vote. That's how many elections now in Alberta where voters on the right seemed to "feel they had no choice?" There's Redford, Prentice after the WildRose defectors, the Orange Crush Landslide, and in another two years again in 2019. You'd almost think political contenders on the right just don't have that much to offer.


You're losing track of the obvious. Last round the dippers were running on:The we're not cons plank, whereas the cons had to run on their record. This go it is the dippers who will be running on their record and if anything it is worse than the legacy of the conmen.

They got the carbon tax. The farm bill. Soaring electrical bills as they shut down coal power plants. The Castle shmazola. On the last one the various interest groups had worked out a good overall solution, which the NDP ignored almost completely. They did not even send any party reps to the so-called consultations, only Mounties as they were deathly afraid the agenda they were pushing might lead to violence.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> That's a pretty pathetic excuse for how to vote. That's how many elections now in Alberta where voters on the right seemed to "feel they had no choice?" There's Redford, Prentice after the WildRose defectors, the Orange Crush Landslide, and in another two years again in 2019. You'd almost think political contenders on the right just don't have that much to offer.


The difference is that the NDP had no ability to govern. And they've demonstrated that admirably. They might have had a remote chance to form a second government if they hadn't embraced full-bore progressive lunacy... but they couldn't help themselves.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

UCP? We see pee! Looks like ze jig iz up Herr Levant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3UKAivWrio&sns=em


----------



## Macfury

Nice going! You accidentally linked to a crowdfunding video for an alt-right media site!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Nice going! You accidentally linked to a crowdfunding video for an alt-right media site!



Apparently you watched only some of the video.


----------



## Macfury

I watched it all. Some sour grapes from an ex-employee leading to the guy shilling for cash to open a new alt-right media outlet.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I watched it all. Some sour grapes from an ex-employee leading to the guy shilling for cash to open a new alt-right media outlet.




How do you get an alt-right crowdfunding site out of this?


----------



## FeXL

MF?

Patrick Brown’s disastrous tenure as PC leader: Opinion

Sounds brutal...


----------



## Macfury

I warned the local candidate for the PC nomination that I don't like Brown. Just as in Alberta, you could sweep someone off a park bench and they would be better provincial leaders than Notley or Wynne. However, Brown is squishy on fake climate concerns and a number of other issues. I would prefer they replace him with a Mike Harris clone before the election.



FeXL said:


> MF?
> 
> Patrick Brown’s disastrous tenure as PC leader: Opinion
> 
> Sounds brutal...


----------



## SINC

Too true.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Ottawa weighs employing ‘social procurement’ plan to support women, minorities



> The Liberal government is thinking about using its massive purchasing power to support women in business.
> 
> "Inclusive federal procurement is a potential avenue through which the Government of Canada can demonstrate leadership and support for women's entrepreneurship," said a November, 2016, memo prepared for Patty Hajdu, who was then minister for the status of women.
> 
> "The Treasury Board of Canada is currently looking at opportunities to better link federal procurement practices with the broader socio-economic objectives of the Government," said the memo. "It is recognized that women and other under-represented groups should be considered in a renewed federal approach to procurement."


So, once again, it's not the best product for the fairest price, it's a politically correct product from the best visible minority...


----------



## FeXL

From the department of "It'll Never Happen Here"...

Female genital mutilation is happening in Canada, study finds



> Women from a small sect of Ismaili Muslims called the Dawoodi Bohras have reported that female genital mutilation has been performed on them in Canada, a study given to the federal government reveals.
> 
> The first research of its kind to probe the practice within this tightly knit South Asian community, the study found that 80 per cent of Bohra women surveyed have undergone FGM and two of the study’s 18 Canadian participants said it happened within Canada’s borders.


And, before the hue & cry begins to mount, don't even think that this is restricted to the DB's.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Gerald Butts defends new consul-general Rana Sarkar's salary



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's [puppet master] Gerald Butts took to Twitter to defend the appointment of his friend to a diplomatic post in San Francisco at a pay rate nearly double the official salary scale, arguing his compensation is in line with others the Liberals have recruited from outside the government – and that they took pay cuts to serve their country.


My substitution...

Hey, where's the pig when you need him? Jimbo!!! Got an opinion on this?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it' 2015!*

Philosophy? I'm thinking philosophy is far too difficult a subject for a substitute drama teacher & snowboard instructor... 

It’s time we really took a look at Trudeau’s political philosophy



> Politicos should ask themselves this: Just what exactly does this guy believe? I’ve followed him in great detail since the 2013 leadership race and really couldn’t tell you.


----------



## FeXL

One more reason why the Feds can kiss my hairy, unwashed arse.

Eisen and Emes: Should equalization really grow forever?



> Consider this fact — in the past two fiscal years, Quebec has collected more revenue from natural resources than Alberta. This reality, which may be stunning to some, is symbolic of a broader trend where provinces that receive equalization payments have generally seen their ability to generate revenue improve more than provinces that do not receive payments.


Tired of being Quebec's milch cow...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

From the department of "How can you tell when a politician is lying? When their lips are moving."

Immigration Minister denies that Canada was unprepared for surge of asylum seekers



> Canada's Immigration Minister denies his government was poorly prepared for the surge of asylum seekers streaming on foot into Quebec from the United States this summer, even as federal officials intensify efforts to try to curb the flow of those showing up at irregular border crossings.
> 
> "We were prepared. We were always on top of this," Ahmed Hussen said in an interview.


Ah huh...

SDA nails it:



> Umm, you're keeping them in Montreal's Olympic Stadium. You had to bring in the military to create impromptu processing stations. You have the RCMP helping them carry their bags. You're now sending envoys to Little Haiti to explain that, Liberal seats in Quebec are being put at risk and to try crossing in Manitoba.
> 
> "Prepared" is not a word I'd use.


Yeppers.


----------



## FeXL

Don't worry, Mohammad. Two years, max, you'll be a millionaire, along with an official apology from a trust fund baby, ex-snowboard instructor playing at being a national leader...

Man arrested trying to get gun through airport security



> Police have arrested a passenger trying to smuggle a firearm in carry-on luggage at Richardson International Airport [Winnipeg].
> 
> The suspect, who was flying to Toronto, tried to have a garment bag cleared through domestic screening to take on the plane.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Yup. Even Conservatives are trying to distance themselves from Ezra Levant's racist world view.



> Some Conservatives have denounced The Rebel. What took so long?
> 
> 4 hours ago
> One can almost forgive Canadian Conservatives for thinking that in Rebel Media they'd found an old wardrobe that took them to some sort of politically motivated xenophobic Narnia. After all, The Rebel has for a long time been something of a secret world, one most Canadians never visited.
> 
> When the subject of The Rebel came up outside of media or political circles, more often than not people said, "What's The Rebel?" and you'd have to explain that it's the Ezra Levant-helmed far-right website that rose from the ashes of the Sun News Network, which went dark in 2015.
> 
> A number of Conservative politicians visited The Rebel and were eagerly hosted by the strange inhabitants there. They came back, feeling as if no time had passed and nothing had changed, least of all them or their party. They managed to return from their Adventures In Rebel without experiencing real-world consequences, beyond perhaps having secured the support of a portion of the fantastical populace they found there.
> 
> Basically it's like, "This is Mr. Tumnus, from the waist up, he's a racist." "What is he from waist down?" you might ask.
> 
> "Oh, also a racist, but he's got these two legs he uses to walk to polling stations, so I thought you might want to meet him."
> 
> Certainly, from time to time, the two worlds collided. In December of 2016, former immigration minister Chris Alexander was filmed smiling, looking enchanted indeed, in front of a crowd assembled at a Rebel Media protest that was chanting "Lock her up!" in reference to Alberta Premier Rachel Notley. He was criticized for this, even by his own party. "There are good reasons to oppose a carbon tax. But calling on our democratically elected premier to be 'locked up' is ridiculous and offensive," said Jason Kenney, who was then campaigning for the Tory leadership in Alberta.
> 
> It's been about eight years since Mr. Alexander left a generally well-regarded career in diplomacy for elected politics. He ran for the leadership of the Conservative Party and can currently be found on Twitter, fervently embracing his new role as Cautionary Tale to Children, but it would be difficult to pin his failure on his sojourns into The Rebel.
> 
> Despite the fact that The Rebel's editorial bread and butter is an endless stream of seething, paranoid invective toward Muslims – with snarky slams at women thrown in – little besides headlining at Rebel events has been remarked upon by Conservative Party faithful.
> 
> The Rebel likes to report on stories that it claims the mainstream media refuses to cover on account of its politically correct liberal bias against things that are completely made up, but this did not seem to concern many Conservatives. The site has seldom come across a right-wing conspiracy theory it didn't love. From "no-go zones" in Europe (areas of major cities in which even the police dare not go for fear of roaming "sharia patrols"), to Seth Rich's murder, the Rebel was there and so, quite often, were Conservatives.
> 
> In February, the Rebel hosted an event in protest against M-103, a motion that obsessed them to the point where they felt compelled to fundraise over it.
> 
> Story continues below advertisement
> 
> (To be fair, a lot of things compel The Rebel to fundraise. Mr. Levant appears to buy domain names in bulk. There's scarcely a cause too trite or too grave to be dot-com-co-opted by The Rebel. I'm largely at peace with my own mortality, but I wake at night sometimes, gripped by a fear The Rebel will fundraise off my death.)
> 
> The now-passed non-binding M-103 called for the government to condemn Islamophobia and for the House of Commons Heritage Committee to study how the government might work toward "eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination, including Islamophobia."
> 
> Needless to say, The Rebel insisted ad nauseam that M-103 was the death knell of free speech and a step toward replacing the Canadian legal system with sharia law. Four then-candidates for leader of the Conservative Party of Canada attended their anti-M103 event, where cash was collected by then-Rebel contributor Faith Goldy, for, it was claimed, security costs.
> 
> I never got the sense that many Conservatives took The Rebel's content all that seriously. It was as if Ezra Levant was some sort of cheap Saturday-morning cartoon they decided they needed their smaller-brained ones to watch while they tried to get some work done – a trade-off, with little cost.
> 
> The written content of most of The Rebel's reporting reads as if it belongs in a particularly sarcastic and xenophobic Grade 2 classroom. The text is simple, sparse and large, the white space vast, each story a little Ladybird Book of hate.
> 
> Arguably, it is Canadian conservatives themselves who should be most offended by their party's pandering to the stunt-performing, ceaselessly cash-soliciting Rebel. In June, The Rebel's Laura Loomer – who once tweeted "Good. Here's to 2,000 more" in response to news of over 2,000 refugees dying as they attempted to cross the Mediterranean – leapt on-stage, shouting, during a production of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, which she claimed to find terribly offensive. (The domain name freelaura.com, registered to Ezra Levant, having already been secured to raise money for her defence.)
> 
> Yet for the most part (Michael Chong being one notable exception), Conservatives have only recently sought distance from Rebel Media. The alt-right march in Charlottesville, Va., with its open display of Nazi flags, chants of "You will not replace us! Jews will not replace us!" and ultimately an attack in which one of the "Unite the Right" marchers allegedly drove a car into a group of counter-protesters – killing 32-year-old Heather Heyer and hospitalizing 19 other people – was apparently a tipping point. Tragic and disheartening as these events were, it's reasonable to ask why that's what it took.
> 
> Nothing about The Rebel changed on that day. The alleged killer wasn't employed by them; there isn't even any evidence he was a fan of their work. Is The Rebel part of a climate of paranoia, rage and disinformation that may have contributed to this crime? A good case could be made, but if political climate and lousy, ideologically driven journalism is the problem, why did the massacre at a Quebec City mosque and The Rebel's subsequent reporting – in which they spread conspiracy theories about a secret Muslim shooter whom no one else dared report on, long after it had become clear there had been no second shooter of any kind – not cause the migration we saw this week?
> 
> Ms. Goldy's video, White Genocide in Canada?, warning that white Canadians are being "replaced," came out on The Rebel in May, virtually unremarked-upon. Star Rebel contributor Gavin McInnes's hateful anti-semitic rants of this past March were largely given a pass as "satire." (Literal pro-tip: They're not.) Yet shortly after winning the leadership race, Andrew Scheer granted an interview to The Rebel. His campaign manager, Hamish Marshall, served on the Rebel's board until stepping down just last week.
> 
> Former Conservative cabinet minister Joe Oliver is still listed as a contributor on The Rebel's website (the most charitable interpretation of this I can come up with is that they gave him magic Turkish Delight), but Mr. Scheer says he will no longer grant interviews to the site unless the "editorial direction of the Rebel Media changes," although he has yet to clarify what exactly needs changing all of a sudden. Citation needed, Mr. Scheer.
> 
> What seems to have changed was this: A white supremacist allegedly killed a young white woman, and there were no photos of her looking angry to contrast with a smiling, snappily dressed, much paler killer. For the moment, pandering to racists, even through a couple heavy layers of protective irony, isn't publicly acceptable any more.
> 
> Broadcasting conspiracy theories dreamed up by white supremacists and advocating solutions supported by them could be laughed off as "edgy," as long as white supremacists themselves could be laughed off as goofy guys, creating deus vult memes in their parents' basements, who just happen – perhaps ironically – to support ethnic cleansing.
> 
> Last week it became apparent that people who love to plaster the Internet with swastikas are in fact willing to gather together out in the open and wave those swastikas in the street. We saw that people who like to spread images depicting Jews as subhumans who are behind a conspiracy to destroy the white race were also happy to shout these views out by torchlight. When it became clear that people who say they're willing to fight a war, so, to kill, in the cause of white supremacy are sometimes completely capable of attempting mass murder, associating with them became trickier to downplay as "controversial."
> 
> Suddenly we are in the midst of the Great Rebel Reset. Much of the site's star talent has quit, been fired or some mysterious combination thereof. In a special edition of his show this Tuesday, one that was mostly mea and precious little culpa, Mr. Levant admitted he'd made a few very non-specific mistakes and pleaded for the The Rebel's life. He will be hiring a new business manager, he said, to take some of the pressure off himself.
> 
> This way, we were told, he'll once again have the time to ensure that only content he approves – like, I suppose, the Gavin McInnes classic Ten Things I Hate About Jews, which Mr. Levant has said he personally chose the title of – will make it onto the site.
> 
> With more help and your support, Mr. Levant – Canada's less stoic Tammy Faye Bakker – pledges The Rebel will rise again. Needless to say, there's a new domain name and a petition in all this, and the point seems to be that when not so overextended by his own success, Mr. Levant will have the energy to more vigorously insist his popular personalities not appear as gushing guests on unabashedly white-supremacist podcasts. That's what Faith Goldy, Miss Deus Vult herself, did right after the murder in Charlottesville. She enthused all over the Daily Stormer, a site that takes more than its name from Der Stürmer, a pro-Nazi Party's tabloid newspaper, and for doing this – against his wishes, Mr. Levant claims – she was let go.
> 
> Mr. Levant threw up a pie chart to refute recent allegations of financial dodginess at the site. "Do I really seem like the kind of guy who would lie on a pie chart?" he all but asked, having interviewed two of his own employees about his awesomeness. Pie charts are a sacred promise, best served without any supporting documentation, it seems.
> 
> Many agree – at Mr. Levant's suggestion – that The Rebel got a bit lost but will now get back on track, back to their roots. Long-time observers of Mr. Levant may well ask what that means for the Roma. In 2012 he ranted, "These are gypsies, a culture synonymous with swindlers … And they come here to gyp us again and rob us blind as they have done in Europe for centuries … one of the central characteristics of that culture is that their chief economy is theft and begging."
> 
> The Rebel is hardly Ezra's first racist rodeo. This was not a drift, now addressed with a correction. It was the course set long ago.
> 
> A myth has been spun that Canada has no conservative news outlets, so therefore The Rebel's demise, should it happen, would be a grave loss. There are others who think that while The Rebel is nonsense, older conservatives have earned the comfort of the nonsense, the healing balm of perpetual enragement it offers – compensation, in some sense, for the culture war they have lost.
> 
> In fact, while the chronicles of the Conservative Party of Canada and Ezra Levant are long and troubling, there are principled and articulate conservative voices in this country. There are many conservative pundits and politicians who have enough faith in their vision of conservatism that they don't think you need to be lied to or tricked into signing off on it, as if they were selling you a dud car you must buy now because "creeping sharia" is just around the corner.


https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/op...6088082/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&


----------



## Macfury

I don't know where to begin taking that nonsense apart.


----------



## SINC

Yep, pretty much . . .


----------



## FeXL

If you can't be bothered to provide a brief precis with a link to the article, I can't be bothered to read it.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. Even Conservatives are trying to distance themselves from Ezra Levant's racist world view.


----------



## Macfury

Just some nonsense with the mainstream media beating down a straw man.



FeXL said:


> If you can't be bothered to provide a brief precis with a link to the article, I can't be bothered to read it.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Just some nonsense with the mainstream media beating down a straw man.


Ah. Thx...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Perfect.

Salvadorans Could Be The Next Wave Of Illegals Crossing US Border To Canada



> There are more than a quarter of a million people from El Salvador living in the U.S. who could see their temporary protected status (TPS) disappear by March 2018.
> 
> If so, they could be deported. Or they may cross illegally into Canada, as thousands of Haitians continue to do.
> 
> According to the Canadian Press, border officials in both Canada and the U.S. are worried that the next surge of illegals will be the Salvadorans.
> 
> Officials in Canada and the U.S. are concerned that the next wave of asylum seekers at the border could be a population far bigger than the Haitians crossing now. They have not been authorized to speak publicly about their expectations but say at least there is no social media campaign ongoing that is encouraging people from El Salvador to seek asylum in Canada — as there has been in the expatriate Haitian community living in the U.S.


I'm sure The Hairdo will be extending a personal invitation shortly.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

My tax dollars at work.

Ottawa to students: We will pay companies to give you a work placement



> The federal government is promising to create 10,000 paid student work placements in key industries over the next four years through a new $73-million program set to be unveiled Monday in Toronto.
> 
> The funding was originally announced in the 2016 budget, but details of how the government plans to create these connections between students and employers haven’t been released until now, just in time for the 2017-18 school year.
> 
> Patty Hajdu, minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Labour, told the Star the goal is to provide incentives to companies to hire students in the science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) industries, as well as the business sector.


----------



## Macfury

Hiring unneeded temporary staff is always a great achievement!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hiring unneeded temporary staff is always a great achievement!


Yep. Jes' like hiring tens of thousands of unneeded public servants, Rachel...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

More on the inevitable fall of Ezra Levant and the alt-right media in Canada. 










http://nationalpost.com/features/inside-ezra-levants-rebel-media


----------



## Macfury

The Rebel media was never a "Juggernaut"--just a bit-player short of cash. Talk about stretching a point to instigate a dog-pile.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The Rebel media was never a "Juggernaut"--just a bit-player short of cash. Talk about stretching a point to instigate a dog-pile.




Ezra certainly considered himself to be far
more important than he really was, and the defenders around here certainly seemed to buy into it. Talk about right wing disavowal of your former allies.


----------



## Macfury

My greatest exposure to the Rebel media news service has been you and CubaMark posting links to them.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Ezra certainly considered himself to be far
> more important than he really was, and the defenders around here certainly seemed to buy into it. Talk about right wing disavowal of your former allies.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> My greatest exposure to the Rebel media news service has been you and CubaMark posting links to them.


Ditto! I can vaguely recall one link where Ezra hit the nail on the head. Otherwise just another Zionist neo-con.


----------



## FeXL

I jes' luvs it when they eat their own...

NDPers tying themselves in knots to defend the niqab: DiManno



> Any woman who wears a niqab, purportedly because she chooses to do so and isn’t doing a man’s bidding, contributes to the erosion of all women’s rights in a secular society. A woman who opts not to show her face in public perpetuates the hideous concept that the rest of us are less virtuous, that our faces are so intimate a feature they should be hidden. She renders us lesser beings and thus unequal.
> 
> There is enough ghettoization around. These women want to ghettoize their faces.
> 
> *Any society that buys into this fallacy is inheritently anti-woman, paternalistic and inside-out reactionary.*


M'bold.

The only surprise here is finding the article in the Red Star...


----------



## FeXL

The buyout continues.

Premier Kathleen Wynne promises $50 million in new arts funding



> Premier Kathleen Wynne is making a song and dance about increasing arts funding — just in time for next year’s election.
> 
> In campaign-style announcement at Toronto’s Berkeley Street Theatre, Wynne said annual funding to the Ontario Arts Council will increase by $50 million over the next four years.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The Lieberals breaking a campaign promise? Say it ain't so...

The long Liberal road to Indigenous reconciliation: Tim Harper



> It was June 2015, and Justin Trudeau, then leader of the third party and struggling in the polls, made what was seen by many at the time as a rather impulsive promise.
> 
> He quickly pledged to implement all 94 recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that had been released that day by Justice Murray Sinclair.
> 
> Monday, more than 26 months after his pledge of reconciliation, a United Nations committee on the elimination of racial discrimination reported it was “alarmed” that the Trudeau government continues to ignore multiple decisions by the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal to close the gap in funding for child and family services of Indigenous children.


But I bet he's got a pair of socks to mark the occasion!


----------



## FeXL

No argument. As a matter of fact, take it a step further & remove his trust fund son from office, as well...

If John A. Macdonald has to go, why not Pierre Trudeau too?



> While we are in the process of scrubbing our history clean, and exorcising all reminders of our former leaders’ ugly pasts — Sir John A. Macdonald, Edward Cornwallis, and all the other warts on our moral sensibilities — why not remove Pierre Elliott Trudeau’s name from the international airport in Montreal?
> 
> And everywhere else, for that matter.
> 
> If we are continuing on the path of historical sanitation, then why not get a jump on future generations before they judge us as failing to be pro-active in an era of supposedly principled pro-activity?
> 
> So, off with Pierre Trudeau’s figurative head.
> 
> If his son Justin, the current prime minister, objects to this progressiveness, then he is not a true progressive.


----------



## FeXL

Funny, when we bought our house, we jes' asked to see a couple natural gas & electric bills...

Coming soon, another costly burden on harried homeowners — mandatory energy audits



> Peter Shawn Taylor: Green groups are lobbying for the $400-$600 audit to be a requirement for every house on the market — for Ontario residents it is soon to be a harsh reality


More:



> Canadians are already well supplied with complicated, expensive and irrelevant environmental programs. We certainly don’t need another.


Sums it up for me.


----------



## Macfury

I had a free energy audit by one of these garbage companies. My home is over 100 years old and they suggested I add two inches to each interior wall, fill it with insulation and then refinish with drywall. Not only would it it kill every original detail of the house--it would also require 150 years to pay back the investment. Another industry lobby from those who benefit directly from it.

When I bought a used car a few years ago, I found that Ontario forces you to buy a vehicle history package from the owner, whether you want it or not. If you refuse to buy it, they charge you for one at the license office.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

How does the neo-nazi supporting/Fake news/teabag crowd minority respond to this?

For months now, a certain group of commentators have been saying that PM Trudeau and his Liberals have destroyed Canada's economy. Must be fake news eh piggies?

Canada Tops Consensus With 4.5% Second-Quarter GDP Growth -- Update | Fox Business


----------



## Macfury

Canada is riding on the caboose of the Trump train to economic success! Thanks for the good news FUXL!


----------



## FeXL

Hey, piggy.

As we have none of your aforementioned on these boards, you'll have to make do with us.

What group of commentators? Nobody on these boards has said that.



FUXL said:


> Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!
> 
> How does the neo-nazi supporting/Fake news/teabag crowd minority respond to this?
> 
> For months now, a certain group of commentators have been saying that PM Trudeau and his Liberals have destroyed Canada's economy.


----------



## Macfury

Problem is, that he never read the posts in his previous incarnations either. Just a mad Ottawa telecom guy with an axe to grind.




FeXL said:


> Hey, piggy.
> 
> As we have none of your aforementioned on these boards, you'll have to make do with us.
> 
> What group of commentators? Nobody on these boards has said that.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, first we have this article:

Liberal MP offered woman $100K to keep quiet about sexual harassment claim, father alleges



> The father of a 24-year-old woman who worked for Calgary Liberal MP Darshan Kang said Kang offered a series of payments to prevent her from sharing harassment allegations with her parents.


And it was deny, deny, deny. Then we have this article & suddenly there's a resignation:

MP Darshan Kang resigns from Liberal caucus after sexual harassment allegations from second woman



> Calgary MP Darshan Kang resigned late Thursday from the Liberal caucus after sexual harassment allegations from a second woman became public.


----------



## SINC

They won't listen, but . . .



> *Small business owners to MPs: ‘Stop hitting us with new taxes’*
> 
> 14,691 petition letters to be sent to MPs today
> 
> Ottawa, September 5, 2017 – The Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB) will deliver 14,691 petition letters to MPs, today, from business owners concerned about the increased tax burden being placed on them by Ottawa.
> 
> “As the federal Liberals convene at their caucus meeting in Kelowna and Conservative MPs in Winnipeg, independent business owners want their MPs to know that they’re being unfairly targeted. Small business owners have been slammed with increased payroll taxes, higher EI premiums, and new environmental levies – they feel like they’re being hit from all sides,” said Dan Kelly, President of CFIB. “This is deeply troubling because it shows a growing disconnect between Ottawa and the small business community, the group this government is counting on for job-creation, innovation and economic growth.”
> 
> The federal government has also broken its election promise to lower the small business corporate tax rate to 9 per cent and recently announced new proposals that would dramatically alter the way small businesses are taxed in Canada. If implemented, the new tax rules would restrict small business owners from sharing income with family members; hike taxes on some investments; and make it more difficult for business owners to transfer their business to the next generation.
> 
> “In my 23 years of working on behalf of small businesses, I have not seen this degree of spontaneous outrage toward any other policy,” added Kelly. “Tax experts are describing these proposals as massive changes with the potential to affect the majority of the 1.1 million small and medium-sized businesses with paid employees.”
> 
> To fight these latest proposals, CFIB is a proud member of the Coalition for Small Business Tax Fairness, a unified voice of 42 organizations representing hundreds of thousands of businesses from all sectors of the economy. Last week, the Coalition sent Finance Minister Bill Morneau a letter asking him to take the proposals off the table while offering to work with the government to combat any abuses of small business tax provisions.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Canada is riding on the caboose of the Trump train to economic success! Thanks for the good news FUXL!


This is true. Our currency value and growth by our major market surely helps. But, it is not because of government action. In fact the Trump government has taken a page from the Liberal handbook.....which is nothing.....sometimes the best action on the economy is no action.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Problem is, that he never read the posts in his previous incarnations either. Just a mad Ottawa telecom guy with an axe to grind.


Yeah, Jimbo never did know when to quit.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

That must have hurt.

Justin Trudeau condemns North Korean missile testing, asks UN to step in



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has condemned North Korea's latest nuclear weapon testing and is urging the United Nations to take further steps to contain the country's nuclear proliferation efforts.
> 
> North Korea's nuclear test and "aggressive" missile testing program "represents a clear and present threat to the safety and security of its neighbours and the international community," Trudeau said in a statement released Sunday.


I'm sure it was all just a big mistake. Juthdin's handlers will have him apologizing in a matter of hours & the multimillion dollar cheques will be Fed-Ex'd immediately thereafter...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Only 82%? Pshaw. Chicken feed...

Vast majority of Canadians want focus on border security, poll says



> The numbers are in and Canadians of all stripes have problems with how the Liberals have been handling the latest flare up of our border fiasco.
> 
> A whopping 82% of Canadians think assigning police and immigration officers to monitor and secure the border is “a major priority,” according to the Angus Reid Institute.
> 
> Only 47% of respondents agreed that getting new arrivals safely into Canada and set up with benefits was an important issue. If forced to choose between the two options, 70% pick border security over providing assistance.


Obviously not a _respectable_ poll...

Related:

BORDER CRISIS: 250,000 More People May Try Crossing Illegally Into Canada



> *About 250,000 people from El Salvador and Honduras are in the United States under temporary protected status. This is the same designation that was given to people from Haiti who came to the United States after the earthquake that damaged Haiti. When their protected status expired on schedule, many fled into Canada after Justin Trudeau sent the dangerous and false message that “everyone is welcome” in Canada.*
> 
> Ironically, the Trudeau government revoked the similar protected status of many Haitians in Canada – _months before the United States did the same._ Of course, you rarely hear about that.
> 
> The next wave
> 
> Currently, 195,000 people from El Salvador, 60,000 people from Honduras, and 2,500 from Nicaragua have their protected status likely to expire by March and January of 2018.
> 
> It is likely that many – _if not a majority of those individuals_ – will attempt to enter Canada illegally if the message from Trudeau does not change.


Likely? :yikes: Hell, the Queen's Horsemen will be there helping to carry their babies & luggage...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on this.

Trudeau Has ‘No Apologies’ For Increasing Tax Burden On Small Businesses



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau isn’t apologizing for potentially adding to the tax burden of small businesses.
> 
> Despite the growing public outcry over tax proposals that many perceive as just another tax grab, Trudeau insists he’s helping the middle-class by eliminating tax breaks that he says only help the rich.
> 
> In Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Friday, Trudeau told reporters that his tax proposals will close loopholes used by wealthy businesses — although small businesses are increasingly using these tax shelters and are crying foul very loudly.
> 
> “We’re doing more for the people who need it and doing less for the people who don’t,” Trudeau said, suggesting that his government represents the middle class.
> 
> “I will make no apologies for this approach.”


Juthdin, you make no apologies for any of the $h!tty policies you enact, you moron...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Good question.

So @JustinTrudeau which of our shared values with Islam convinced you to offer Chechen Gays shelter from Muslim persecution



> Persecuted in Chechnya, gay refugees face new struggles in Canada


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Further on this.
> 
> Trudeau Has ‘No Apologies’ For Increasing Tax Burden On Small Businesses
> 
> 
> 
> Juthdin, you make no apologies for any of the $h!tty policies you enact, you moron...


Too Be honest, other than those who have ideological rants on this topic, I'm not really sure what the impact of " sprinkling" and incorporation will have on small businesses.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Too Be honest, other than those who have ideological rants on this topic, I'm not really sure what the impact of " sprinkling" and incorporation will have on small businesses.


I posted much of the effect earlier today:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-2112.html#post2538225


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

What happens when you elect a Prog grad school double dropout, snow-boarding instructor, substitute drama teacher, trust fund baby for PM...

Canada demands U.S. end ‘right to work’ laws as part of NAFTA talks



> Canadian negotiators are demanding the United States roll back so-called "right to work" laws – accused of gutting unions in some U.S. states by starving them of money – as part of the renegotiation of the North American free-trade agreement. The request is part of a push by Ottawa to get the U.S. and Mexico to adopt higher labour standards under the deal.
> 
> *Mexico, meanwhile, is campaigning to include its oil and gas sector in the deal.*


M'bold.

'Nuf said...


----------



## Rps

Sinc, I get the complaint on EI, GI and such. Sprinkling is no more than income splitting ( as I understand it ) which might have some concern, but the largest issue is incorporation from all I have read.....not sure how many small business would have that on their agenda. I think any increase is just the nth......they appear to resent the deaf ear of the PM......welcome to the club. But, the middle class is under siege... I don't think any government knows how to fix that.


----------



## Macfury

Of course they do--but it would mean less government control and not more. That doesn't appeal to the parties.



Rps said:


> Sinc, I get the complaint on EI, GI and such. Sprinkling is no more than income splitting ( as I understand it ) which might have some concern, but the largest issue is incorporation from all I have read.....not sure how many small business would have that on their agenda. I think any increase is just the nth......they appear to resent the deaf ear of the PM......welcome to the club. But, the middle class is under siege... I don't think any government knows how to fix that.


----------



## Dr.G.

Nova Scotia to cover tuition for trades training at NSCC - Nova Scotia - CBC News

An excellent idea. Taxpayer money, for those of us here in NS, well spent.


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> Nova Scotia to cover tuition for trades training at NSCC - Nova Scotia - CBC News
> 
> An excellent idea. Taxpayer money, for those of us here in NS, well spent.


While that remains to be seen, I have no problem with aid to trades.....that is an investment in the future as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> While that remains to be seen, I have no problem with aid to trades.....that is an investment in the future as far as I am concerned.


Yes, we shall see. There are companies here in NS that will be ready to hire these grads once they finish their program. Jobs await them in their home province. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, we shall see. There are companies here in NS that will be ready to hire these grads once they finish their program. Jobs await them in their home province. Paix, mon ami.


The issue we have in Windsor is we required tool and die tradesmen, but they will only pay $13.25 an hour....not many takers. With the costs of the apprenticeship I can see why....maybe NS has found away to keep their grads at home and help hirers pay living wages.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> The issue we have in Windsor is we required tool and die tradesmen, but they will only pay $13.25 an hour....not many takers. With the costs of the apprenticeship I can see why....maybe NS has found away to keep their grads at home and help hirers pay living wages.


Skilled tradesmen and women are earning more than the $15 minimum wage here in NS. Certain industries here in NS are begging for skilled workers. So, it's a win-win here in NS if this program proves successful. We shall see.


----------



## FeXL

So, let's talk the Canadian Muslim view on FGM!

Canadian Muslim Website Publishes Article Defending ‘Medical Benefits’ of Female Circumcision



> A Muslim website based in the Canadian city of Calgary has published an article defending the practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) claiming that there are medical benefits if part of a woman’s genitals are removed, and saying it is justified by Islam.


More:



> Many have also dismissed FGM as a local cultural practice with no links to the religion of Islam itself. Hussein disagreed saying that *there is a reference to FGM in the sayings of the prophet Mohammed, also known as the Hadith.*


Yeah, my bold.

Just like I noted not too long ago to Mr. Sensitive.

So, there's a link to said article inside the Breitbart article. When I clicked on that link, a PDF automatically downloaded to my desktop. I immediately sent it to the trash & deleted it. The author of the article indicates it contains information on the health benefits of "circumcision" for women.

The Canadian Muslim article itself is very...revealing, if for no other reason than the very first sentence:



> How Misogynists and Feminists are feeding upon each other to denigrate *an Islamic practice* that brings untold benefits to women


Emphasis mine.

There goes another narrative. Hate when that happens...


----------



## Macfury

So what do employers do if nobody takes them up on their ungenerous offer?



Rps said:


> The issue we have in Windsor is we required tool and die tradesmen, but they will only pay $13.25 an hour....not many takers. With the costs of the apprenticeship I can see why....maybe NS has found away to keep their grads at home and help hirers pay living wages.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> So what do employers do if nobody takes them up on their ungenerous offer?




Market economics.


----------



## FeXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> Market economics.


Nope. In Ontariowe, the Prog gov't will hire a couple thousand unemployed, under-qualified members of the most visible non-white minority, unionize them, pay them lavish wages with benefits & full a retirement plan, strike a subcommittee with a yearly 8 figure budget indexed to inflation & examine the data in full detail. This will take a minimum of 10 years to execute properly. At that point they will decide that the minimum wage should be increased to $25/hr but only if electricity prices go up a commensurate amount & the carbon tax is increased to 15%.

Soon after they will disband for early retirement but only after they vote themselves a 10 year retroactive raise of 100%.


----------



## Beej

Dr.G. said:


> Nova Scotia to cover tuition for trades training at NSCC - Nova Scotia - CBC News


Seems worth trying. The current treatment in most places of subsidizing every university program more than every trades program is poor policy. A little re-balancing and targeted policy is in order. That can be done with cuts to one or a new program for the other...or both (my preference).


----------



## Dr.G.

Beej said:


> Seems worth trying. The current treatment in most places of subsidizing every university program more than every trades program is poor policy. A little re-balancing and targeted policy is in order. That can be done with cuts to one or a new program for the other...or both (my preference).


Sounds reasonable, mon ami.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> So what do employers do if nobody takes them up on their ungenerous offer?


They move to Ohio.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> They move to Ohio.


So Windsor's cost of living is too high for the company to be competitive.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> So Windsor's cost of living is too high for the company to be competitive.


They have trouble getting the skilled labour, but I think a lot of it has to do with Ms. Wynne's vision for Ontario.


----------



## FeXL

<snort>

Ontario Grade 9 students to negotiate end-of-term grades



> A new pilot project at a high school in Ontario will see Grade 9 students negotiating their end-of-semester grades with their teacher, an idea some experts say will help keep the focus on learning.


As opposed to what?

_Very_ related:

Little return on billions poured into Ontario education



> Ontario has increased spending on the public education system by a whopping $7 billion over the last decade, even though student enrolment dropped more than 5% in that time, according to a new study.
> 
> *The Fraser Institute study — Education Spending and Public Student Enrolment in Canada — also found teacher and staff salaries, benefits and pensions ate up more than 80% of that massive cash injection.*


M'bold.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> They have trouble getting the skilled labour, but I think a lot of it has to do with Ms. Wynne's vision for Ontario.


Agreed.


----------



## Macfury

In order to get their university of choice, a lot of high school kids I know are taking night courses at the high school with the lowest academic standards. They can pull 90s there. Instead of this nonsense about negotiating grades, how about standardizing thegrading system across the province?



FeXL said:


> <snort>
> 
> Ontario Grade 9 students to negotiate end-of-term grades
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to what?
> 
> _Very_ related:
> 
> Little return on billions poured into Ontario education
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Instead of this nonsense about negotiating grades, how about standardizing thegrading system across the province?


Do you have provincial exams in Ont? We have standards testing in (I think) grades 3, 6, 9 & then standardized core subject provincial exams in grade 12, of which a certain percentage applies to your final grade. If memory serves at one time it was as much as 100% but that was decades ago (60's & 70's). When I took them they were 50% but that has changed several times over the years. I'm not exactly sure what they are now.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on The Hairdo's screwing over of his much-valued small businesses.

Tax fairness? The Liberal small biz tax changes are the total opposite



> Funny, isn’t it, how Liberal politicians tout small businesspeople as the bedrocks of our neighbourhoods, our communities and our nation when they are seeking their votes. But once they are elected – and ravenous for more revenue to finance their Big Government dreams – the Libs started portraying these same entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, farmers, fishermen and professionals as greedy tax cheats who were robbing the middle-class.


More:



> John Szaszkiewicz, a prominent Edmonton small business accountant, estimates the full effect of the Liberals’ proposed small-business tax changes could be “a 73 per cent effective tax rate on investment income … and a hit of close to 40 per cent in after-tax retirement income for small business owners.”
> 
> How is that fair? Or helpful to the middle-class?


Yes. Us rotten, middle-class, tax-dodging bastards.

Screw you, Juthdin. F'ing trust fund baby...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s NAFTA Climate Change Agenda Running Into Trump Wall



> Newly appointed foreign affairs critic Erin O’Toole ridiculed the Liberals for trying to push their *climate change agenda* — and other social policies — along with free trade.


M'bold.



> [Catherine McKenna] also issued an official government response on her Facebook page that included her contention that “the conservatives are still saying that the environment and the economy can be separated! Climate change is real and environmental protection is essential. *It is time for the conservatives to understand the message.*”


M'bold.

Methinks it's the Progs who don't understand the message...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Do you have provincial exams in Ont? We have standards testing in (I think) grades 3, 6, 9 & then standardized core subject provincial exams in grade 12, of which a certain percentage applies to your final grade. If memory serves at one time it was as much as 100% but that was decades ago (60's & 70's). When I took them they were 50% but that has changed several times over the years. I'm not exactly sure what they are now.


Grade 12 was 100% at the time I wrote them. Luckily we had a Physics/Chem teacher who spent the last 4 weeks teaching us how to write the exams. Know your stuff. Do a fly through and cherry pick for highest points and certainty of knowledge. Read carefully to weed out the trick questions. Don't waste time on badly written questions. Never guess on the right minus wrong multiple choice segment. Lots more to it but that's a good summary.

Since every teacher in the province had to have one question on the exam, the material was far more than the time allotted and the exams were 2 to 3 hours long. Add that to the bell curve grading and knowing how to write the exams was of equal or greater value than actual knowledge. 

I still use a modified form of the technique today when shopping for high price items.


----------



## Macfury

Exams are as low as 30% of final grade now in Ontario.


----------



## eMacMan

As I recall exams were actually after the graduation ceremonies. I have often wondered how the school would have handled say an honors student completely flubbing the finals, and ending up a course or two short of requirements.


----------



## Macfury

Grad ceremonies occurred in October of the following year for us.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> I have often wondered how the school would have handled say an honors student completely flubbing the finals, and ending up a course or two short of requirements.


Non-qualified students are currently encouraged to attend graduation ceremonies with their graduating classmates these days even if they do not fulfill the requirements for graduation and have been for a number of years.

Back in my day if you didn't pass, it would have been considered shameful & embarrassing to get up on stage with everyone else.

I don't agree with it. You're short on graduation requirements, you put your head down & arse up, shoulder the load, get the requirements & you can graduate next year. It's not who you're with that matters, it's that little piece of paper that counts.

F'ing participation trophies...


----------



## FeXL

Further on Canadian crappy tax "reform".

Trudeau's going to pay a heavy price for tax reform



> It’s not very complicated: Many of the stakeholders in this professional demographic normally vote quietly for the Liberals — but will vote noisily for the Conservatives if the government doesn’t relent on this. Professionals also write cheques to political parties, and they won’t be writing them to the Liberals. And professionals have high approval numbers among Canadians, which makes them very influential.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Wouldn't "smart things" be a much shorter list?

Stupid things Trudeau says



> It turns out budgets don’t balance themselves, and Justin Trudeau is learning this the hard way.


More:



> Trudeau has demonstrated time and again he doesn’t know the first thing about small businesses, the economy, or how to balance a budget.


BUT LOOK AT HIS MAGNIFICENT HEAD OF HAAAAAAAIR... :love2:

<gag>


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on the trust fund baby's finger on the pulse of middle-class Canadians...

Spending on government opinion research hits highest point in nearly a decade



> At $12.5 million, federal government spending on public opinion research has reached its highest point in nearly a decade, according to a new report posted quietly on the Public Services and Procurement Canada website.
> 
> In the previous fiscal year (2015/2016), the federal government spent $3.8 million. The year before that, it was $4.1 million.


As SDA noted:



> The Liberal government is so "in touch" with Canadians that _federal government spending on public opinion research has reached its highest point in nearly a decade._


Italics from the link.

Related:

Trudeau's middle-class mantra shows he doesn't get it



> Thousands of times over hundreds of campaign stops, townhalls and press conferences, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s one-and-only mantra was his focus on bettering the middle class.
> 
> The “middle class” this; the “middle class” that.
> 
> He, like no prime minister before him, was going to help the middle class grow and prosper, and he sold it better than any snake-oil salesman and pill pusher anyone could ever envision.
> 
> It is his biggest political lie thus far, and the most flagrant of his multitude of broken promises in the two years since being elected.
> 
> He just doesn’t get it.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hey, if The Hairdo hadn't mouthed off in the first placer, nobody would need to head stateside on damage control duty.

Liberals look to ‘neutralize’ misinformation in U.S., ward off more asylum seekers



> A Liberal MP is heading to Los Angeles this week for a pre-emptive strike against misinformation about Canada’s immigration system circulating in the Spanish-language press that officials worry could inspire a new wave of asylum seekers.


More:



> On Aug. 30, the Spanish-language publication La Prensa reported that the Canadian government was set to welcome Hondurans living in the U.S. with temporary protected status, quoting a community organizer who said he had been contacted by the Canadian Embassy to explore programs.
> 
> Except that never happened.
> 
> The piece mirrored those that had been circulating in Creole-language traditional and social media earlier this summer, cited by some of the Haitians who have arrived in Canada in recent weeks as the reason they decided to come north from the U.S. Since July, some 7,000 asylum seekers have crossed into Canada from Quebec, the majority Haitian.


Must be an election approaching. It's the only time these bastards are concerned about proactivity...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Probably shaking in his boots... :lmao:

Trudeau Issues Veiled Threat To Missouri Governor Over Super Hornet Contract



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is again suggesting he will abandon a plan to purchase 18 Super Hornets from Boeing, CBC News reports.
> 
> Trudeau called-up Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens to remind him Tuesday how important the aerospace industry is to the state for jobs as well and “the shared importance of the aerospace industry to both economies,” as a statement from the prime minister’s office put it. Boeing has its head office in St. Louis.


More:



> At the root of the conversation is an ongoing debate over government subsidies to the aerospace industry. Trudeau has become personally involved in the struggle with Boeing, whom he accuses of “pursuing unfair and aggressive trade action against the Canadian aerospace sector” because it “receives billions in support from U.S. federal, state and municipal governments.”
> 
> For its part, Boeing says Canada’s Bombardier aerospace is unfairly competing in U.S. markets because the company is heavily subsidized by the Canadian government and has filed a trade complaint with the department of commerce that could lead to tariffs on Bombardier products.


Can't have it both ways, Juthdin.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on on alla us middle-class tax cheats.

Business Owners are Thieves, Liberal edition.



> When normals get in financial trouble, we cut back on spending, forgo the wants and re-evaluate the necessities. If the situation is bad enough we have to declare bankruptcy.
> 
> When Shiny Pony gets in a financial mess, his mouth flaps. The attack on small business owners is well under-way. The smear job is official. Ten Million for terrorists, $373-million for Bombardier, the back of the hand for the driven.
> 
> "I want to be clear," Trudeau told the assembled MPs.
> 
> "People who make $50,000 a year should not pay higher taxes than people who make $250,000 a year."
> 
> Notice how Trudeau completely ignores the fact the corporations and the employees pay taxes? And that the sum total of those taxes are nearly equal to the personal tax a straight up employee making the same amount will pay? How he ignores the fact of tax integration?


There's a very good analysis of this at presented at this comment as a quote from a linked Financial Post article.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, most politicians possess a certain amount of basic stupidity. Then, at the top of the heap, you have weapon's grade stupidity. In this list (among others) I would place Bill's Wife, Red Rachel & our illustrious snowboard instructor & substitute drama teacher, The Hairdo.

This post is about the latter & continues along his middle-class tax reform vein.

Trudeau is one of the wealthy Canadians he says benefit from small-business tax deductions



> Trudeau himself was involved in at least three small business that were federally incorporated, one of which he used to receive income for paid speaking events he did between 2006 and 2011.


Why the Liberal plan to tax entrepreneurs who invest will come back to haunt Canada



> A great deal has been written about the negative effect this will have on small business owners — the lifeblood of the Canadian economy — from farmers to dentists and doctors to corner store owners. I agree with the many who believe that these entrepreneurs ought to continue to receive tax incentives for starting businesses in order to promote risk taking and drive GDP growth in our country.


Public sector one-percenters are safe, but regular small biz owners take the hit 



> Most One-Percenters work for salaries – meaning they are executives or senior bureaucrats. They are not small business owners, nor do they live off investments, stocks and bonds.
> 
> And here’s the real shocker: They are almost as likely to be in the public sector as the private.
> 
> George Fallis, an economist at Toronto’s York University points out that in addition to senior partners in large law firms, specialist doctors, dentists and other professionals “most judges are in the one percent.” So are “the senior administrators of our hospitals and our universities.”
> 
> The largest provinces’ health care systems will all have dozens of One-Percenters on staff, perhaps hundreds.
> 
> “They are also the senior civil service and the top people in many quasi-public agencies,” Fallis points out. “The leaders of big-city museums, opera and ballet companies and symphonies are also One-Percenters.”
> 
> But only a tiny fraction of the true One-Percenters are about to get whacked for considerably more taxes the way the Liberals plan to hit the campground owner, diner owner, auto shop owner and farmers you met this summer.


Can't alienate the voter base now, can we...

65% of N.B. doctors would leave province if federal tax changes come into effect: survey



> Doctors in New Brunswick aren’t happy with a series of proposed federal tax changes that they say will force them to leave the province and degrade the current state of health care.
> 
> Both the New Brunswick Medical Society (NBMS) and other regional health organizations in the province have issued statements in the past week condemning the proposed changes which are set to target small business owners across the country.


So, I'm going to go out on a limb here & guess that New Brunswick's population issues are probably similar to what Dr.G. has been talking about in NS.

Reading the above, perhaps instead of looking at immigration as some sort of half-baked & potentially dangerous solution, we should look at why workers are leaving in the first place. Couldn't be because of crappy provincial & federal leftist policies, could it? :yikes:

Related:

Scheer Targets Arrogance Of Trudeau Government



> _*Justin Trudeau’s time in power has been one example of arrogance after the other. From his elitist economic policies, dismissal of criticism and other opinions, to trying to hid the Omar Khadr payment disgrace from the Canadian People, Justin Trudeau clearly thinks the people of our country are meant to serve him, rather than the other way around.*_


Links' emphasis.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

John Ivison: Trudeau's Liberals have kept all the pipeline promises they intended to keep



> Energy East is dead and _j’accuse_ the Trudeau Liberals.
> 
> TransCanada Corp, the company behind the 4,500-km pipeline that would carry crude from Alberta to refineries in eastern Canada, has said it wants to suspend its application to build the $15.7-billion project. The reason: the National Energy Board’s announcement late last month that it will consider Energy East’s contribution to upstream and downstream greenhouse gas emissions — factors not considered when the Liberals granted permits to expand Kinder Morgan’s Trans Mountain project and Enbridge’s Line 3 pipeline.


More:



> Nor is it likely to appease the angry citizens of New Brunswick, Alberta or Saskatchewan, who would have benefited from a pipeline Trans Canada pitched as a “Canadian solution to a Canadian challenge” — displacing imports from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia that are not subject to upstream emissions evaluations.


Yep. Fine to use foreign oil. Just not our own. F'ing idiots...

Related:

Trudeau's sad legacy: Billions in energy infrastructure spending, scuttled on his watch



> The Northern Gateway pipeline ($7.9 billion), the Pacific Northwest LNG project ($36 billion), and now likely the Energy East pipeline ($15.7 billion) are three privately funded infrastructure projects that would have materially strengthened the economy for decades — and all were scuttled under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s watch in the past year.
> 
> *It’s sad to say, but the last time there was so much heavy handed, poorly thought out federal interference into the energy sector was during the failed National Energy Program in the early 1980s, when Trudeau’s father Pierre was in charge.*


M'bold.

Weapon's grade stupidity...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, more on Weapon's Grade Stupidity.

The real reason



> Trudeau and Morneau are pushing ahead with their ill-thought and dangerous tax changes under the guise of fairness with the intention of dividing Canadians. They come out and yell that we small business owners are thieves, stiffing the system, dangerous.
> 
> Get the Conservatives to support small business owners, farmers, the doctor and vet and you can then claim they are the party of the 1%. If the electorate is stupid enough to believe it, you're set.
> 
> The fact that it's stupid tax-policy, a drastic change to small business practice and an incentive to just shut everything down means nothing to these loose-guns.
> 
> Some outlets see the idiocy for what it is.


Inside are links to 6 articles furthering the explanation but this salient little quote from the first linked article outta get the hair on Progs' necks up & move them onside:



> It’s the hairdresser who decided to set up shop in her home, the family-owned corner store you have relied on for more than one forgotten Thanksgiving ingredient, the family that makes the apple cider you couldn’t get through autumn without, and the fry truck your kids beg you to stop at on weekends. *It’s the family who came to Canada as immigrants and scraped together everything they had to build a successful business that is now employing others in their community.* The very people we should be championing for their incredible hard work and perseverance, Trudeau wants to hit with a massive tax hike.


M'bold.

OMG!!! :yikes: Not the immigrants, too! Next, he'll be taxing the _refugeeeeees_...

Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Young Canadian ISIS recruit says he saw violence on scale he could never have imagined



> In early 2014, a young Toronto-area man who went by the jihadi nom de guerre “Abu Huzaifa al-Kanadi” (Abu Huzaifa the Canadian) cleaned out his bank account and left to join the ranks of ISIS.
> 
> He was 17 going on 18. His parents were kept in the dark about his intention to join the extremist organization, he said.
> 
> Five months after serving as an ISIS enforcer in the Syrian city of Manbij, Abu Huzaifa said he realized it wasn’t what he had signed up for and he decided to flee Islamic State in Iraq and Syria [ISIS] and head home.
> 
> Abu Huzaifa would only agree to speak to the CBC on condition that his real name and identity not be revealed. *Afraid for his life, he said he suffers from nightmares and wakes up in a cold sweat at least three times a week.*


M'bold.

All together now, for this <sniff> :-( fearful, recalcitrant, anonymous ISIS "enforcer":

Awwwwwwww...

Further:



> So let me get this straight, an ISIS “enforcer” returns to Canada yet faces no punishment other than counselling by publicity hound Mubin Sheikh?


Yep.

Keerist, don't call him out! He'll be the next terrorist that Juthdin mails a cheque to...


----------



## Dr.G.

Could the Ontario government actually lose money selling pot?: Robyn Urback - CBC News | Opinion

The ON government should run it the way they ran Ontario Hydro in the recent past.


----------



## wonderings

Dr.G. said:


> Could the Ontario government actually lose money selling pot?: Robyn Urback - CBC News | Opinion
> 
> The ON government should run it the way they ran Ontario Hydro in the recent past.


I have no trouble believing the Ontario government can lose money doing anything. Debt continues to rise, they seem to make one dumb decision after another. They could have a cure for cancer and somehow go in debt selling it to the masses.


----------



## Dr.G.

wonderings said:


> I have no trouble believing the Ontario government can lose money doing anything. Debt continues to rise, they seem to make one dumb decision after another. They could have a cure for cancer and somehow go in debt selling it to the masses.


So I have heard. I was trying to be "tongue in cheek". How could any government lose money selling pot????????


----------



## wonderings

Dr.G. said:


> So I have heard. I was trying to be "tongue in cheek". How could any government lose money selling pot????????


Where there is a will there is a way!


----------



## Dr.G.

wonderings said:


> Where there is a will there is a way!


:lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

wonderings said:


> Where there is a will there is a way!


Has Hydro One been a success?


----------



## wonderings

Dr.G. said:


> Has Hydro One been a success?


a success in what way? It was sold as far as I know. I would love to buy a business like that, previous owner guarantees my profits and pays my employees for so many years. Success for Hydro One, loss for residents of Ontario in the long run... maybe. I have no noticeable changes in my bills and not that well versed on it so my opinion could be way off base.


----------



## Dr.G.

wonderings said:


> a success in what way? It was sold as far as I know. I would love to buy a business like that, previous owner guarantees my profits and pays my employees for so many years. Success for Hydro One, loss for residents of Ontario in the long run... maybe. I have no noticeable changes in my bills and not that well versed on it so my opinion could be way off base.


Did the province of ON do better or worse with this sale? I have heard economists say yes and no to the wisdom of this sale.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Has Hydro One been a success?


A disaster. Major price increases ensure it runs a book profit, while it operates a $5billion capital deficit on aging infrastructure.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> A disaster. Major price increases ensure it runs a book profit, while it operates a $5billion capital deficit on aging infrastructure.


 Why was it sold in the first place?


----------



## wonderings

Does not sound good from this article
Terence Corcoran: Ontario Liberals' power regime a fiasco | Financial Post

"At least now it must be seen as official: Ontario’s electricity regime is a gargantuan fiasco, a dysfunctional, overpriced, mismanaged system that for most of the last decade has been abandoned to the provincial Liberals’ gross incompetence and deliberate abuse of governance."

"Over the next 17 years, she says consumers are expected to shell out about $133 billion in adjustments to cover the cost of the Liberals’ massive and scandalous restructuring of the electricity supply industry. Many of the dollars will go to pay companies to not produce electricity."


----------



## Dr.G.

wonderings said:


> Does not sound good from this article
> Terence Corcoran: Ontario Liberals' power regime a fiasco | Financial Post
> 
> "At least now it must be seen as official: Ontario’s electricity regime is a gargantuan fiasco, a dysfunctional, overpriced, mismanaged system that for most of the last decade has been abandoned to the provincial Liberals’ gross incompetence and deliberate abuse of governance."
> 
> "Over the next 17 years, she says consumers are expected to shell out about $133 billion in adjustments to cover the cost of the Liberals’ massive and scandalous restructuring of the electricity supply industry. Many of the dollars will go to pay companies to not produce electricity."


Wow!!! Nova Scotia Power is giving all consumers a rebate from the extra charges that were charged to everyone to help pay for the maritime link, a deal between Emera and Nalcor. Emera's NS link has been completed and not only on time but a bit early and UNDER budget based on the amount that they said was needed to build our part of the link. So, we are getting a rebate (my share will be about $425).


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> Wow!!! Nova Scotia Power is giving all consumers a rebate from the extra charges that were charged to everyone to help pay for the maritime link, a deal between Emera and Nalcor. Emera's NS link has been completed and not only on time but a bit early and UNDER budget based on the amount that they said was needed to build our part of the link. So, we are getting a rebate (my share will be about $425).


Not to worry, Dr. G. Given Emera/NSP's corporate history, there's little doubt that they'll find a way to recoup their profits in the years to come. The cake is a lie.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Not to worry, Dr. G. Given Emera/NSP's corporate history, there's little doubt that they'll find a way to recoup their profits in the years to come. The cake is a lie.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Why was it sold in the first place?


60% sold because Ontario's deficit due to overspending was so great it could no longer gouge taxpayers for more money.


----------



## macintosh doctor

the sad fact of life in canada


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> 60% sold because Ontario's deficit due to overspending was so great it could no longer gouge taxpayers for more money.


----------



## wonderings

And people wonder why they want change in government, to try someone with "no political experience". I welcome a business man or women giving it a try, can it really be any worse then what is going on already? The people of the province do not help either, everyone wants more more more but not willing to pay more in taxes for it. You can't get something for nothing, all these services are great but come at a cost. We may not pay for it now but we will certainly pay for it in the future as debt skyrockets. But hey, lets keep giving our public servants raises and promises of job security while the rest of the province has to fight it out with no job security and no guarantee or raises.


----------



## Macfury

When the unfunded pension liabilities hit the fan, things will really get ugly. Many jurisdictions, cities and counties, will be bankrupt. They knew they couldn't support people for 30 years because they worked 25.

I've always asked for fewer services, but on any given day you see articles in the newspapers where various interest groups and government departments are demanding a collective 200 per cent of the province's budget because their particular crisis is imperative. More public housing, more meal programs, more support for business, more transit, more "green" energy, more encounter groups for disaffected youth, more clean needles, more healthcare funding, higher wages for teachers, doctors and nurses. It's a cap held out to the public that can never be filled.



wonderings said:


> And people wonder why they want change in government, to try someone with "no political experience". I welcome a business man or women giving it a try, can it really be any worse then what is going on already? The people of the province do not help either, everyone wants more more more but not willing to pay more in taxes for it. You can't get something for nothing, all these services are great but come at a cost. We may not pay for it now but we will certainly pay for it in the future as debt skyrockets. But hey, lets keep giving our public servants raises and promises of job security while the rest of the province has to fight it out with no job security and no guarantee or raises.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> But hey, lets keep giving our public servants raises and promises of job security while the rest of the province has to fight it out with no job security and no guarantee or raises.


 Heathen!!! :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

"...the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth..."

<snort>

All eyes on Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne at Election Act bribery trial 



> It will be quite the unprecedented sight.
> 
> On Wednesday morning, a sitting premier will take the stand, promising to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, at the Election Act bribery trial of two of her former henchmen. Whatever Premier Kathleen Wynne has to say, she loses.
> 
> If she would have invoked her parliamentary privilege, she would have looked as if she had something to hide. And by agreeing to testify, she intensifies interest in a proceeding that has otherwise provoked glazed eyes across the province from all but the most avid political junkies.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Speaking of not getting it...

Trudeau targets Tories in gender equality remarks, saying they don't get it



> Trudeau has positioned himself as a champion of gender equality since taking office, when he explained his decision to appoint a half-female cabinet with the headline-grabbing quip, “because it’s 2015.”
> 
> But he told the conference Monday that despite his government’s efforts to bolster the ranks of women in politics, retention has proven a challenge, in large part due to the vitriol aimed at female politicians.
> 
> ...
> 
> *He pointed to the case of Iqra Khalid, a Toronto-area Liberal MP who introduced a private member’s motion condemning Islamophobia and “ended up experiencing death threats and a level of online violence and commentary and viral videos against her that were quite terrifying.”*


M'bold.

'Kay, Juthdin, here's the thing. Death threats are not acceptable under any circumstances. Period. As far as the balance is concerned, welcome to politics in the 21st century. Males, females & otherwise are all getting the same response. Wah.

Know why her motion received such attention? Had nothing to do with her sex. Zero. The response had everything to do with the fact that the motion was garbage in the first place. There are already laws on the books that cover everything her motion did, _without singling out Islam as a special case_. All they need is to be enforced.

_That's_ why.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada's police say zero chance they'll be ready for July 2018 Liberal pot timetable



> Canada’s police services say there is zero chance they will be ready to enforce new laws for legalized pot by next summer.
> 
> Representatives from different police forces are appearing before the House of Commons health committee, which is studying the government’s bill to make marijuana legal.
> 
> Representatives from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, the Ontario Provincial Police and the Saskatoon Police Service also say they want the government to reconsider allowing people to grow pot at home, because it will be difficult to police and could make it easier for young people to obtain marijuana.


On one hand, this just sounds like a precursor to asking for more financing, needed or not. On the other, I don't like the idea of pot being legalized in the first place.


----------



## Macfury

I don't like the government "granting" someone the right to use pot. I would consider it a natural right to begin with.

Recognize the legality of everything and then make sure kids don't get into it.



FeXL said:


> On one hand, this just sounds like a precursor to asking for more financing, needed or not. On the other, I don't like the idea of pot being legalized in the first place.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> "...the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth..."
> 
> <snort>
> 
> All eyes on Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne at Election Act bribery trial


Since she is a politician, she would by definition be lying through her teeth if she promises to tell the truth. Wouldn't she???


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I don't like the government "granting" someone the right to use pot. I would consider it a natural right to begin with.
> 
> Recognize the legality of everything and then make sure kids don't get into it.


I sat on the fence over this for many years. It's only recently that I've come down on this particular side and mostly for the following reasons:

1) Still don't have a quick, dependable way of measuring intoxication for stoned drivers.
2) If cigarettes are bad for you, so is pot. Many of the same toxic chemicals shared between the two.
3) I know lifelong regular pot smokers. Anybody who denies that there is not a long-lasting (if not permanent) effect doesn't have a clew.


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> I sat on the fence over this for many years. It's only recently that I've come down on this particular side and mostly for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) Still don't have a quick, dependable way of measuring intoxication for stoned drivers.
> 2) If cigarettes are bad for you, so is pot. Many of the same toxic chemicals shared between the two.
> 3) I know lifelong regular pot smokers. Anybody who denies that there is not a long-lasting (if not permanent) effect doesn't have a clew.


1) That is something they need to work on for sure, especially since it can stay in your blood stream for a month.

2) So if it shares the same toxins as cigarettes why not make cigarettes illegal or make pot legal to come in line with that? If they are both equally as bad treat them the same. I would say, from the pot smokers I knew, they never smoked anywhere near the same amount as cigarettes. 

3) I agree there are negative effects, though I wonder if that can be attributed to younger users who are still developing. I certainly know a few people who just some a bit "different" and have been life long pot smokers.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> If cigarettes are bad for you, so is pot. Many of the same toxic chemicals shared between the two.


Watch Health Canada go after e-cigs as though they were the devil's own invention.



FeXL said:


> 3) I know lifelong regular pot smokers. Anybody who denies that there is not a long-lasting (if not permanent) effect doesn't have a clew.


I'm sure there's a lifelong consequence--but it's up to the dudes who want to fry their brains. I don't like government involvement because it implies approval.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

Hey Neo-Nazi/alt-right/fake news sympathizers remember this pig......

Former MP Del Mastro back in jail, considering Supreme Court appeal on election charges | National Post


----------



## Macfury

Hey, Jimbo! How's the telecom biz?


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> 2) So if it shares the same toxins as cigarettes why not make cigarettes illegal...


That's easy: Taxes. 

And, if they do decide to tax legalized pot, that will be it's downfall. You'll be able to buy stronger, better Toledo Window Box cheaper from Phil's grow-op down the street than what the gov't can supply.


----------



## Macfury

Sadly, the police in "legal" states such as Colorado used to go after criminals pushing the stuff. Now they're busting individual growers muscling in on their territory.



FeXL said:


> That's easy: Taxes.
> 
> And, if they do decide to tax legalized pot, that will be it's downfall. You'll be able to buy stronger, better Toledo Window Box cheaper from Phil's grow-op down the street than what the gov't can supply.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Auditor general finds oversight, enforcement problems of foreign worker program



> OTTAWA — Canada's temporary foreign workers program is rife with oversight problems that appear to have allowed lower-paid international workers to take jobs that out-of-work Canadians could fill, the federal auditor general says.
> 
> Michael Ferguson's examination of the controversial program, part of a battery of spring audits tabled Tuesday, details a litany of problems.


More:



> Officials didn't use government data on Canada's labour market that could have helped to ensure employers were being truthful in their applications, the report says. Nor did officials effectively crack down on companies that were found to have run afoul of the rules.


Huh. Public servants not doing their jobs. 'Magine that.

Perhaps they need to hire more of 'em...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Yep. It's all our fault for reading it wrong.

Bill Morneau pushes back on 'misinformation' coming out about proposed tax changes



> With Parliament due to resume sitting next week, Finance Minister Bill Morneau is digging in on his proposed tax changes and mounting a campaign against what he calls misinformation about it.
> 
> The tax changes have been the hot topic of discussion at the Sheraton Hotel Newfoundland, where cabinet ministers met for three days this week to prepare for the fall sitting.
> 
> It’s not just business groups and opposition Conservatives who’ve been blasting the government in the media; Liberal MPs are increasingly speaking up about their concerns with the proposed changes, including *finance committee chair Wayne Easter, who told the Globe and Mail the communication strategy around the reforms was “god-awful.”*


M'bold.

Huh...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau should've come clean on the Bahamas trip from the very start 



> Back in March we were told the tally to bring Trudeau, his family and select friends – including Liberal MP Seamus O’Regan – along for the holiday trip cost $127,187. Shortly thereafter, another $6,695 was revealed – the cost of transporting a government technician by sea plane.
> 
> Now, we’ve learned it’s much higher. The new figure? Over $215,000. This includes fresh sums revealed by the RCMP. They’d originally warned us that the $127,000 might not be the total tally because they were still tabulating costs. Fair enough. A few thousand here or there crops up from time to time; no big deal.


Bbbbbbut...DUFFY!!!


----------



## Macfury

You'd think dear old dad would have taught him about the importance of honesty...



FeXL said:


> Trudeau should've come clean on the Bahamas trip from the very start
> 
> 
> 
> Bbbbbbut...DUFFY!!!


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Trudeau should've come clean on the Bahamas trip from the very start
> 
> 
> 
> Bbbbbbut...DUFFY!!!





Macfury said:


> You'd think dear old dad would have taught him about the importance of honesty...


Obviously you can't be talking about Pierre Idiot Trudeau. Are you suggesting that Maggie was fooling around and Justin is literally a bastard?


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Obviously you can't be talking about Pierre Idiot Trudeau. Are you suggesting that Maggie was fooling around and Justin is literally a bastard?


Either way...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on taxes.

Why the rich should revolt — and it's not for the reasons they think



> On July 15, a beautiful 26 C summer day in Ottawa, Finance Minister Bill Morneau announced the Justin Trudeau government’s plan to revamp tax rules for small business corporations. The Liberals say these corporations — formally known as Canadian-Controlled Private Corporations — take advantage of giant tax loopholes that Canada’s wealthy use to dodge billions of dollars in taxes.
> 
> The loopholes are complicated and Morneau’s proposed fixes are even more so. The minister allowed 75 days for experts and users of CCPCs to assess the proposed changes. Some say the review period is too short, but it has been long enough for a groundswell of opposition to build among tax lawyers, doctors, farmers, small business owners and others.


----------



## CubaMark

*1st Avro Arrow, Now Canadarm: When Will Canada Learn To Hold Onto Its Tech?*










The images we choose to put on our currency are meant to be iconic portrayals of the people, places and things we hold most dear as a nation, images that help define us as a people and speak to what we wish we could be.

There's the loon, the moose, the Bluenose schooner, past prime ministers and, to be added in 2018, Viola Desmond, who in 1946 refused to leave a whites-only section of a Nova Scotia movie theatre.

Now, take a look at the back of a five-dollar bill, and you'll see a proud bit of Canadian technology floating high over the earth, Canada's logo emblazoned across it for all the world to see, the Canadarm.

The Canadarm was developed in the 1970s and first put into space in 1981, soon becoming an integral part of NASA's space shuttle program. That program's success would not have been possible without the Canadarm literally reaching into space and doing the work the crew had been sent into orbit to perform.

** * **​
This is technology that all Canadians can rightly be proud that our country produced. It was conceived with a healthy dose of taxpayers' dollars and some $108 million to get it started, so we all own a piece of it.

A sense of ownership is intensified for the workers and retirees who helped build the first Canadarm, including those at Northstar Aerospace in Milton, Ont. who today are facing job loss and a 24 per cent cut to their pensions as the plant closes and its work moves to the U.S.

Spar Aerospace was the lead contractor on the Canadarm, and when that company was broken up, part of it later became Northstar, where workers are represented by Unifor Local 112.

Private equity firm Wynnchurch Capital, which now owns Northstar, is moving production south just as another iconic piece of Canadian aerospace technology is being rediscovered. The Avro Arrow was cutting-edge technology when the Diefenbaker government killed the program and sunk its prototypes into Lake Ontario.

** * * *​
I have to ask, why does Canada keep doing this? Why do governments repeatedly spend taxpayer dollars to develop the latest in aerospace technology, and then sit by while it leaves the country?

Workers in this country have proven over and over that we have the capability to rebuild and rekindle cutting-edge technology in Canada, only to cut ourselves off at the knees and force ourselves to start over again when that technology is exported by the companies that own it.

** * * *​
The Northstar workers losing their jobs and the retirees seeing their pensions cut by about $200/month are only the most visible of those who will be hurt by the Milton plant closure later this month. Also paying the price are young people who will never have the opportunity to get a good union job at that plant.
(HuffPo)​


----------



## Macfury

My question is: why does the government even invest in private industry?


----------



## FeXL

Warmongers! Tear it Down!!!

Canada unveils its first US Civil War monument



> Canada has unveiled its first monument to the US Civil War, honouring the 40,000 Canadians who fought during America's bloodiest conflict.
> 
> The monument in Cornwall, Ontario, was championed by a Civil War re-enactment group who raised almost almost C$44,000 ($36,000, £27,000) to build it.
> 
> About 7,000 Canadians died in the war, which claimed almost 620,000 US lives.


----------



## FeXL

The Libs ain't gonna like that...

B.C. bill to ban corporate and union donations, replaces revenue with public subsidy



> British Columbia's NDP government has introduced legislation to overhaul the province's lax campaign finance rules, pivoting from the "Wild West" of political fundraising to one of the nation's leaders in limiting the influence of big money in elections.
> 
> The legislation proposes a public subsidy for political parties for at least the next five years as they adjust to the new fundraising model.


----------



## FeXL

Can't complain about the accountability. There ain't none!

Christie Blatchford: First Nation's $550K powwow is no surprise for band's members



> The Caldwell First Nation, where a forensic audit uncovered gross financial irregularities around a 2016 powwow, allegedly has been dubiously run for years.
> 
> “I am not even remotely shocked about the results of the audit,” says one member of the small Leamington, Ont.-based First Nation. “I think if members knew what went on … they would be sick to their stomachs for weeks.”


----------



## eMacMan

Hmmm. 

Paying $7000 *in advance* for access to private health care??? Seems almost like that is painting a target on your back. Seems that Landmark Collaborative Health agrees.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/patients-caught-off-guard-sudden-141700333.html



> CALGARY — A private health clinic in Calgary has shut down unexpectedly, citing a slow economy in the city.
> Staff at Landmark Collaborative Health were told last Tuesday not to come to work.
> Several hundred patients have received an email address to contact to get their medical records.
> Patients put up several thousand dollars a year for access to a family doctor and other health services.
> Landmark’s founder and president, Jesse Stein, has not responded to requests for comment on the closure.
> Alberta's College of Physicians and Surgeons says it has little jurisdiction over clinics that aren’t owned by licensed, medical professionals.
> Patients who paid an annual fee for care at Landmark are now wondering whether they will be able to recoup their losses.
> One client, Catherine Chalack, said she paid $7000 just three weeks ago to renew her family's membership.
> "It's really leaving us short-changed for the next year or two in any secondary health care that we may require or we would like to investigate so, yep, it's left a big hole in our pockets," she said.
> Kelly Eby, a spokesman for the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, said the organization is helping patients get their records.
> "We’re working with them to help them understand that it is one of their responsibilities and we’re working with the clinic ownership to get that access,” said Eby.
> Friends of Medicare said the closure is exactly the reason why health-care privatization is dangerous.
> "These private, boutique, concierge clinics are intentionally in the grey area so that they are outside of government regulation so that neither patients nor employees are protected, and this is what we see as a result," said Friends director Sandra Azocar.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

VIDEO: Trudeau Dodges Question On Arms Sales To Saudi Arabia



> Trudeau loves talking about human rights, but his approval of arms sales to Saudi Arabia shows his rhetoric to be nothing but lies.
> 
> As more and more evidence emerges that Saudi Arabia is using Canadian-made armoured vehicles against civilians – which is a violation of Canadian law – Justin Trudeau’s government has been dragging out an investigation for over a month and a half.
> 
> Despite campaigning against arms sales to Saudi Arabia, Trudeau has approved them while in office, another example of his endless hypocrisy.


----------



## SINC

Truth at last about both Trudeau and the UN. 

Rex Murphy: Justin Trudeau’s UN address was a meaningless speech to a worthless body | National Post


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

B-b-but... DUFFY!!!

Federal minister’s First Nation child welfare representative received $437,000 contract: docs



> *The former Liberal candidate appointed by Indigenous-Crown Relations Minister Carolyn Bennett to conduct consultations on First Nation child welfare issues was given a $437,000 contract to do eight months of work, according to internal documents.*
> 
> Bennett appointed Cynthia Wesley-Esquimaux, chair of truth and reconciliation at Lakehead University, as her special representative on child welfare in August 2016. The appointment, which ended on March 31, was made following the January 2016 ruling from the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal which found Ottawa discriminated against First Nation children by under-funding child welfare services on-reserve.


Bold mine.

Nice work if you can get it...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Yo, Bro. Come & take it from me...

Canadian PM Justin Trudeau Says All Men Should Be Feminists, Calls For End to 'Bro Culture'



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called for "Bro culture" to come to an end and said all men need to become feminists and "shut down" one another's "negative conversations" in locker rooms.
> 
> "It's not only that men can be feminists, it's that men should be feminists as well," Trudeau said with a lisp Wednesday at a United Nations youth empowerment meeting in New York.


Juthdin hath a lithp? :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

SURVEY: Canadians Oppose Trudeau’s Khadr Payment By Huge 39% Margin



> Justin Trudeau’s decision to give $10.5 million in taxpayers money to Omar Khadr isn’t sitting well with Canadians.
> 
> According to a survey by Campaign Research, a full 60% of Canadians oppose the Khadr deal, while just 21% support it. The remainder are undecided.
> 
> Even among Liberal supporters, 49% oppose the deal while just 31% are in favour.
> 
> 51% of New Democrats, and an overwhelming 83% of Conservatives are against the Khadr payment.
> Many say the Khadr payment will impact their vote
> 
> Nearly half of survey respondents said Trudeau’s Khadr payment will impact their vote.
> 
> 21% say it will have “a great deal” of impact on their vote, while 23% say it will have “some” impact.


Well, it won't affect my vote. If the trust-fund baby was the only candidate on the ballot I'd spoil it...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s banana republic approach to Bombardier and Boeing



> Which brings me to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his imperial decree that Boeing, the American- airplane manufacturer, might find its federal government-related business suspended until it drops its complaint with the U.S. Trade Commission against Montreal-based Bombardier, this over the latter’s C -Series program. “We won’t do business with a company that’s busy trying to sue us and put our aerospace workers out of business,” said Trudeau earlier this week. The reference was to the planned federal purchase of 18 Super Hornet fighter jets for the Canadian military.


Juthdin, Juthdin, Juthdin <shaking my head>

It's my understanding that you've done a bit of boxing in your spare time between being a snowboard instructor & substitute drama teacher. Methinks you're punching a bit out of your weight class. Put your gloves down & just walk away.

Was in Everett, WA this summer. Visited the Boeing Future of Flight assembly plant while there. They have 10 years worth of orders on the books, hundreds of widebody aircraft. You think they really care about your lousy 18 Superhornets?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

When even Maclean's is taking notice? :yikes:

Justin Trudeau’s UN motto: don’t make trouble, wear silly socks



> But it was the socks chosen by _Marie Claire_ magazine’s “dreamy feminist” Trudeau, first noticed at the Bloomberg Global Business Forum Wednesday, that everyone was raving about. “A bold fashion statement”—_Us Magazine_. “Sent the Internet into a fenzy.”—_Hello_ magazine. “Zany.”—_Time_ magazine.


"Cranio-rectal inversion". —Canadian taxpayers...

Related:

Trudeau’s UN flop was a sad display of moral relativism



> It was quite the study in contrasts. Last Monday, U.S. President Donald Trump stood in front of a packed house at the United Nations to deliver a stinging indictment of North Korea, the harms of socialism and the threat of radical Islamist terrorism. Then, on Thursday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke to a half-filled room in the same hall to deliver a stinging indictment of... Canada.


Woohoo!

Go, Juthdin!!!


----------



## SINC

The tide is slowly turning against the Hairdoo.

Conservatives would beat Libs: Poll | Canada | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> The tide is slowly turning against the Hairdoo.


All he'll hafta do is promise (not actually deliver, just like many of his prior campaign promises) to spend a coupla trillion dollars on some goofy social program or another & they'll be lining up to vote for The Hairdo again...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Stop normalizing Sharia law in Canada 



> After the controversial M-103 was passed in Parliament, leftist media and the Trudeau government insisted that the critics were wrong, that it’s just a motion – symbolic! – and that M-103 will have no legislative impact.
> 
> When the Heritage Committee began its hearings last week, however, critics who expressed concern over the motion were proven right.
> 
> One of the first experts to testify implied police should prosecute Canadians over social media posts that police deem offensive or incorrect. Yes, prosecute.
> 
> Orwell would be rolling in his grave.


More:



> The CBC ran a news story defending Sharia law, with a headline saying that Sharia is “not to be feared.”


:yikes::yikes::yikes:

Related:


----------



## FeXL

I'm more than a little surprised...no one is making the obvious comparison...



> So, to recap... Weiner... hard time for sexting on his cellphone... Meredith... cash for life for actually seducing a teenage girl.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Stop normalizing Sharia law in Canada
> 
> ...
> :yikes::yikes::yikes:


Did you actually read the article? Typical right wing paranoia and purposeful incitement of the bigots. Every thing the Candice raised as an issue was - in her own article, her own words - defeated, not implemented, turned down (e.g. the 2003 attempt by some muslims to set up parallel sharia courts). 

It's much ado about nothing. BUT MY GOD!!!! MUSLIMS!!!! SHARIA!!!!! AAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!

It seriously takes very little to get the rabid muslim fearing folks riled up, eh? 

But then, what does one expect of a "news" site that has a "sunshine girl"? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

What do you think of M-103?



CubaMark said:


> Did you actually read the article? Typical right wing paranoia and purposeful incitement of the bigots. Every thing the Candice raised as an issue was - in her own article, her own words - defeated, not implemented, turned down (e.g. the 2003 attempt by some muslims to set up parallel sharia courts).
> 
> It's much ado about nothing. BUT MY GOD!!!! MUSLIMS!!!! SHARIA!!!!! AAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!
> 
> It seriously takes very little to get the rabid muslim fearing folks riled up, eh?
> 
> But then, what does one expect of a "news" site that has a "sunshine girl"? :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> What do you think of M-103?


It's a motion, not a law. It has no direct impact upon your life (unless someone is discriminating against you due to your race or religion).

Here it is - in full. What specifically do you have a problem with?

_Ms. Khalid (Mississauga—Erin Mills), seconded by Mr. Baylis (Pierrefonds—Dollard), moved, — That, in the opinion of the House, the government should:

(a) recognize the need to quell the increasing public climate of hate and fear; (b) condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination and take note of House of Commons’ petition e-411 and the issues raised by it; and (c) request that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a study on how the government could

(i) develop a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination including Islamophobia, in Canada, while ensuring a community-centered focus with a holistic response through evidence-based policy-making,

(ii) collect data to contextualize hate crime reports and to conduct needs assessments for impacted communities, and that the Committee should present its findings and recommendations to the House no later than 240 calendar days from the adoption of this motion, provided that in its report, the Committee should make recommendations that the government may use to better reflect the enshrined rights and freedoms in the Constitution Acts, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
— Private Members’ Business M-103​_​


----------



## Macfury

I didn't say the motion would have an impact on my life, nor did I need you to copy it. I asked what you thought of it.



CubaMark said:


> It's a motion, not a law. It has no direct impact upon your life (unless someone is discriminating against you due to your race or religion).
> 
> Here it is - in full. What specifically do you have a problem with?
> 
> _Ms. Khalid (Mississauga—Erin Mills), seconded by Mr. Baylis (Pierrefonds—Dollard), moved, — That, in the opinion of the House, the government should:
> 
> (a) recognize the need to quell the increasing public climate of hate and fear; (b) condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination and take note of House of Commons’ petition e-411 and the issues raised by it; and (c) request that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a study on how the government could
> 
> (i) develop a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination including Islamophobia, in Canada, while ensuring a community-centered focus with a holistic response through evidence-based policy-making,
> 
> (ii) collect data to contextualize hate crime reports and to conduct needs assessments for impacted communities, and that the Committee should present its findings and recommendations to the House no later than 240 calendar days from the adoption of this motion, provided that in its report, the Committee should make recommendations that the government may use to better reflect the enshrined rights and freedoms in the Constitution Acts, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> — Private Members’ Business M-103​_​


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I didn't say the motion would have an impact on my life, nor did I need you to copy it. I asked what you thought of it.


I understand why Khalid proposed the motion - perhaps those of you who are so busy hating on muslims were unable to appreciate how they felt in Canada these past few years, with public attacks on women in hijabs, a shooting at a Quebec mosque, among other incidents, and the bigots screaming from every social media (and some private media) hilltop against the encroaching hoard.

The motion is neither here nor there. From what I see, existing laws against hate speech, discrimination and criminal acts should be sufficient. For that reason, a proposed law to further extend anti-religious hatred is probably not needed.... but this is a motion, nothing more. It raises awareness. It encourages government to take a closer look at anti-religious activity, gathering data which should inform future social policy.

I'm fine with greater introspection, debate, discussion. Which is exactly what M-103 calls for.

Ultimately, this is an extremely minor issue... blown far out of proportion by the usual suspects.


----------



## Beej

> perhaps those of you who are so busy hating on muslims





> I'm fine with greater introspection, debate, discussion.


This is public debate nowadays.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> This is public debate nowadays.


Thank you, Beej, for pointing out the ever-present hypocrisy.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Thank you, Beej, for pointing out the ever-present hypocrisy.


Thanks. Perhaps a meme with large text would make your opinion more believable.


----------



## Macfury

The government should not be involved in the creation of laws involving people's feelings. Laws against hate speech are also an abominable abrogation of free speech, even if the views expressed are abominable. 



CubaMark said:


> I understand why Khalid proposed the motion - perhaps those of you who are so busy hating on muslims were unable to appreciate how they felt in Canada these past few years, with public attacks on women in hijabs, a shooting at a Quebec mosque, among other incidents, and the bigots screaming from every social media (and some private media) hilltop against the encroaching hoard.
> 
> The motion is neither here nor there. From what I see, existing laws against hate speech, discrimination and criminal acts should be sufficient. For that reason, a proposed law to further extend anti-religious hatred is probably not needed.... but this is a motion, nothing more. It raises awareness. It encourages government to take a closer look at anti-religious activity, gathering data which should inform future social policy.
> 
> I'm fine with greater introspection, debate, discussion. Which is exactly what M-103 calls for.
> 
> Ultimately, this is an extremely minor issue... blown far out of proportion by the usual suspects.


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> The government should not be involved in the creation of laws involving people's feelings. Laws against hate speech are also an abominable abrogation of free speech, even if the views expressed are abominable.


I agree. With free speech comes the good and the bad. How much is this study to find hate speech is bad and there is no way to stop it without taking away free speech going to cost us?


----------



## FeXL

So, I'm going to transpose the order of a couple of your comments.

First off, it's minor to _you_. It's not minor to the hundreds of thousands of victims of rape, murder, _et al._, plus their families, friends, countrymen, by Islam.

You screamed blue murder recently on the American Poli thread about Trump's decision to ban transgenders. This affected what, a few hundred people out of millions in service? And you're calling _this_ minor? Once again, your hypocrisy rears its ugly head.



CubaMark said:


> Ultimately, this is an extremely minor issue... blown far out of proportion by the usual suspects.


I don't. As you point out yourself, there are existing laws on the books that would deal nicely with her concerns. All they need is to be enforced.



CubaMark said:


> I understand why Khalid proposed the motion...


OMG!!! Public attacks, one whole shooting, people calling out for better screening of refugees & immigrants. Brutal!!!

Without minimizing any of this, the scale of what both you & her are complaining about is so minuscule as to be nearly absent in comparison to what her fellow Muslims are conducting worldwide.

As to your comment about "the encroaching horde", how can you read about what's happening in Europe & not think that?



CubaMark said:


> - perhaps those of you who are so busy hating on muslims were unable to appreciate how they felt in Canada these past few years, with public attacks on women in hijabs, a shooting at a Quebec mosque, among other incidents, and the bigots screaming from every social media (and some private media) hilltop against the encroaching hoard.


It would be if the debate hadn't immediately turned to:



> One of the first experts to testify implied police should prosecute Canadians over social media posts that police deem offensive or incorrect. Yes, prosecute.


If that doesn't set off warning bells in your head, it should. 'Cause it's not only going to affect those critical of Muslims but, among others, Christians, too. Guess who just entered the ranks of the counted: You.



CubaMark said:


> The motion is neither here nor there.


First off, this motion doesn't discuss "anti-religious hatred". It mentions Islam, and Islam alone. Not a single other other religion.

Second, the motion doesn't even define what Islamophobia is. How the hell can you discuss "future social policy" when the terms aren't even defined, FFS?



CubaMark said:


> For that reason, a proposed law to further extend anti-religious hatred is probably not needed.... but this is a motion, nothing more. It raises awareness. It encourages government to take a closer look at anti-religious activity, gathering data which should inform future social policy.


Beej has dealt rather nicely with this...



CubaMark said:


> I'm fine with greater introspection, debate, discussion.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> So, I'm going to transpose the order of a couple of your comments.


Sure - but could you perhaps transpose the order of your answers? I've always found it annoying when you put your answer before the cited bit that you are responding to. It's bass-ackwards.



> First off, it's minor to _you_. It's not minor to the hundreds of thousands of victims of rape, murder, _et al._, plus their families, friends, countrymen, by Islam.


You are showing your ignorance of Sharia. As with the traditional religious tenets of pretty much any religion, there are parts that serve a useful cultural purpose, and parts that in a modern secular society are just wacko. Be careful not to confuse actual Sharia with proclamations and decrees by conservative imams and other religious leaders who act out of misogyny rather than ascription to a particular faith.



> You screamed blue murder recently on the American Poli thread about Trump's decision to ban transgenders. This affected what, a few hundred people out of millions in service? And you're calling _this_ minor? Once again, your hypocrisy rears its ugly head.


When we are talking about human rights, what affects one should concern us all. What's your magic number for taking things seriously? And... your numbers are a bit off:

_Well, a 2016 RAND Corporation study showed that of the approximately 1.3 million people who are considered active-duty members of the military in 2014, about 2,450 of them are transgender, making up about just 0.1-0.5 percent of the active-duty military. In addition, it’s estimated that about 1,510 transgender people serve in the Selected Reserve._
(RAND via Heavy.com)​


> OMG!!! Public attacks, one whole shooting, people calling out for better screening of refugees & immigrants. Brutal!!!


By "public attacks" I don't mean people like you bitching in an internet forum, or in the _Letters to the Editor_ of a given newspaper / news site. I refer to:



[*]He ‘just kept hitting me with the bat’: Canadian Muslim teen brutally beaten by white men
Québec City mosque shooting: six dead as Trudeau condemns 'terrorist attack'
Hate crimes against Muslims in Canada increase 253% over four years
Anti-Muslim incidents in Quebec: a timeline
Edmonton police’s Hate Crimes unit investigates ongoing distribution of anti-Islamic flyers
Racial slur captured on video in Edmonton spurs #MakeItAwkward social media campaign
A Muslim Professor Was Attacked by an 'Old White Man' at the Toronto Symphony • _He chopped her in the neck and called her a "child" and a "bitch."_
Muslim woman says she was attacked

_*and let's not forget this lovely incident:*_
*Muslim woman punched, spat on in Canada*​









...that was the result of just a few minutes of searching. Add to that the sentiment that wafts up from racial attacks in the USA, and the environment in which muslims in Canada live is not exactly welcoming.



> Without minimizing any of this, the scale of what both you & her are complaining about is so minuscule as to be nearly absent....


(a) so we should accept certain levels of violence against Canadian muslims. Could you quantify that, please? Give us some numbers to work with? Say, one baseball-bat near-death beating of a muslim teen between the ages of, oh, 14–18 every eight months or so? One humiliating ripping-off of a woman's hijab on the subway every other month? I need something to work with here... some numbers to help me understand your degree of willingness to accept societal violence against minority groups.



> ... in comparison to what her fellow Muslims are conducting worldwide.


See, this is where you continue to go off the rails. The word you are looking for is "terrorists". All muslims are not terrorists. Repeat. And repeat. Consider it your healing mantra to deliver you from making stupid prejudicial statements.



> If that doesn't set off warning bells in your head, it should. 'Cause it's not only going to affect those critical of Muslims but, among others, Christians, too. Guess who just entered the ranks of the counted: You.


Me? Please explain.



> First off, this motion doesn't discuss "anti-religious hatred". It mentions Islam, and Islam alone. Not a single other other religion.


Here, I highly recommend this company. Cheap, fast, good quality.

*Context:*

*(b) condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination*
(Text of Private Member's Motion M-103)​


> Second, the motion doesn't even define what Islamophobia is. How the hell can you discuss "future social policy" when the terms aren't even defined, FFS?


We also don't define words like "motion", "policy", "racism" because, you know, they are in the damn dictionary and anyone literate enough to bitch about these things should be capable of looking it up, if it's not already obvious:

*Definition of Islamophobia*

:irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam
— Islamophobe play \is-ˈlä-mə-ˌfōb, iz-, -ˈla-\ noun
— Islamophobic play \is-ˌlä-mə-ˈfō-bik, iz-, -ˈla-\ adjective​(Merriam-Webster)​


----------



## Macfury

Certainly very tired of hearing all disagreements described as "phobias." CubMark should be prosecuted for Conservophobia?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Certainly very tired of hearing all disagreements described as "phobias." CubMark should be prosecuted for Conservophobia?


Hey, find a Private Member to introduce a Motion, and you're all set, MF!


----------



## FeXL

And you are showing your ignorance, period.

You create a false dichotomy by saying this is all the fault of the "conservative" Muslims (somehow it's always the fault of the right with you, isn't it...), when in fact, it's Islam as a whole:

Self-Described "Progressive, Mainstream" Muslim Groups in America Are Homophobic and Racist

Mainstream Islamic Conferences Have a Longstanding History of Normalizing Anti-Blackness



CubaMark said:


> You are showing your ignorance of Sharia. As with the traditional religious tenets of pretty much any religion, there are parts that serve a useful cultural purpose, and parts that in a modern secular society are just wacko. Be careful not to confuse actual Sharia with proclamations and decrees by conservative imams and other religious leaders who act out of misogyny rather than ascription to a particular faith.


I take them all seriously. But I'm realistic enough to know that 100% of the grievances will never even be addressed, let alone solved. Frankly, a _tenth to a half of one percent_ of _any_ demographic doesn't even show up on my radar. There are bigger fish to fry. I'm a firm believer in the 80/20 rule. If your aim is to truly help people, why not help as many as you can?



CubaMark said:


> When we are talking about human rights, what affects one should concern us all. What's your magic number for taking things seriously? And... your numbers are a bit off:


Neither do I.



CubaMark said:


> By "public attacks" I don't mean people like you bitching in an internet forum, or in the _Letters to the Editor_ of a given newspaper / news site.


Blah, blah, blah...

How many Muslims in Canada killed by Canadians?

How many Muslims in Canada raped by Canadians?

How many of these refugees were raped or had family members raped or killed back home?

Then I guess Canada is a better place to be, idn't it...

I could give you a hunnert links in a few minutes of searching where Muslims had attacked, killed, raped, blown up others this year alone. I don't have the time. I can tell you that I have several hunnert bookmarked since the last link dump I posted here.



CubaMark said:


> ...that was the result of just a few minutes of searching. Add to that the sentiment that wafts up from racial attacks in the USA, and the environment in which muslims in Canada live is not exactly welcoming.


(a) So we should accept certain levels of violence against the worldwide population, period. Could you quantify that, please? Give us some numbers to work with? Say, one rape by a Muslim every 7 minutes in Europe? A killing once a day? A gay tossed off a rooftop every two weeks? Not even to mention the _constant_ misogyny, patriarchy & abrogation of human rights by the followers of Islam. I need something to work with here...some numbers to help me understand your degree of willingness to accept societal violence against people as a whole. Which situation is worse? Who needs help more? The 6 people (or whatever) in Canada who were affronted by words (which, incidentally, are not violence), had their (gasp) hijab torn off or whatever? Or the untold millions of people worldwide this year alone who have suffered to a greater or lesser degree under Islam?



CubaMark said:


> (a) so we should accept certain levels of violence against Canadian muslims. Could you quantify that, please? Give us some numbers to work with? Say, one baseball-bat near-death beating of a muslim teen between the ages of, oh, 14–18 every eight months or so? One humiliating ripping-off of a woman's hijab on the subway every other month? I need something to work with here... some numbers to help me understand your degree of willingness to accept societal violence against minority groups.


See, this is where you feebly attempt to throw a red herring into the discussion. Ain't bitin'...

I'm 100% positive the word I'm looking for is Islam. This isn't just about terrorists. I don't believe for a second that every Islamic refugee in the EU (or elsewhere, for that matter) who has committed a rape, a killing, is a misogynist, etc., etc., etc. is a terrorist. If you do, you're an even bigger idiot than I take you for.



CubaMark said:


> See, this is where you continue to go off the rails. The word you are looking for is "terrorists".


Show me where I said they were. Nor are all Muslims rapists, killers, misogynists. But they certainly show a greater propensity for violence than anybody else currently on the planet.



CubaMark said:


> All muslims are not terrorists.


Mere days ago on these very boards you were critical of people who are religious.

HATER!!! Toss your sorry butt in jail!!!



CubaMark said:


> Me? Please explain.


You'd know. How are the rose-coloured ones?



CubaMark said:


> Here, I highly recommend this company. Cheap, fast, good quality.


First, just fukc right off. Your tone throughout the post wasn't too bad up to now. You want civil discourse? Initiate it.

Second, because they are well-established terms & concepts used in law already. I checked a half-dozens websites looking for "Islamophobia" & found not a one that includes it in their lexicon.

Third (and again), because the whole premise of M-103 is poor to begin with. Let the language of the motion cover all forms of religious discrimination, not just single out one. At best, the optics are poor. At worst, it's censorship at it's finest.



CubaMark said:


> We also don't define words like "motion", "policy", "racism" because, you know, they are in the damn dictionary and anyone literate enough to bitch about these things should be capable of looking it up, if it's not already obvious:


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> ....because the whole premise of M-103 is poor to begin with. Let the language of the motion cover all forms of religious discrimination, not just single out one. At best, the optics are poor. At worst, it's censorship at it's finest.


I don't know how to make this any clearer. I've posted twice now, and linked to the original source, the text of M-103, in which it clearly covers "all forms of religious discrimination".

Hence my suggestion for new reading glasses. You are plainly having vision problems. Or perhaps its simply comprehension. Seriously.....


----------



## FeXL

Fabulous!!!

Now, pardon me for doubting the sincerity of such a move but it seems they did this more to silence criticism than out of any real intent to do it.



CubaMark said:


> I don't know how to make this any clearer.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Fabulous!!!


Not so much. It took far too much effort to assist you in comprehending the printed word. What's the opposite of "Fabulous"??? :yikes:



FeXL said:


> Now, pardon me for doubting the sincerity of such a move but it seems they did this more to silence criticism than out of any real intent to do it.


Wowzers. Time to open up the FeXL dossier, and update it with his newly-revealed "mindreading powers". The psychological profile becomes ever-more complex.... XX)


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

C'mon CM, you're Karnak the Kommunist compared to FeXL.


----------



## eMacMan

As usual Rick Mercer nails it. Doubt that Trudeau will listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s7qeHKe8H8


----------



## CubaMark

_An interesting choice by the NDP membership. I was betting on Charlie Angus, but this choice doesn't disappoint me._

*Meet Jagmeet Singh: Sikh lawyer, martial artist and new NDP leader*










Jagmeet Singh, the first turban-wearing Sikh to sit in Ontario's legislature, will now lead a federal political party with his victory in the NDP leadership race on Sunday.

Singh, 38, won on the first ballot Sunday, taking 53 per cent of the vote to top MPs Charlie Angus, Niki Ashton and Guy Caron.

Singh has represented the riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton at Queen's Park since 2011. The unmarried MPP served as the Ontario NDP party's critic for justice and consumer services before party leader Andrea Horwath named him her deputy in 2015.

A criminal defence lawyer who speaks fluent French and Punjabi, Singh was born in Scarborough, Ont., in 1979.

Singh was raised in Newfoundland and Labrador while his father, who trained as a psychiatrist in India, attended medical school there and worked as a security guard before he could practise in Canada. 

His family moved to Windsor, Ont., when he was seven years old.

* * *​
Singh has said that he would not immediately seek a seat in the House of Commons until he had time to help increase his profile outside of the House. 

During his acceptance speech Singh also tapped into his family's past financial struggles drawing attention to a pledge he made while campaigning — to end job insecurity and precarious work. 

"While I was in university, my father became very ill and my father was unable to work. We needed to pay the bills, so in my 20s I became the sole income earner in my family," he said. 

Singh explained that he was forced to take care of his younger brother — making his meals, buying his clothes, sending him to school and even showing up for parent-teacher interviews — until his father was well enough to return to work. 

"We were lucky to find a way out of this precarious situation, but many people don't. Many people face far more difficult struggles," he said. 

"I caught just a little glimpse of the pressure they feel, the weight of living paycheque to paycheque knowing the consequences of falling short, letting your family down and losing the basics like shelter, food and education."
(CBC)​


----------



## SINC

If the NDP ever wondered why they could never elect Tom Mulcair, they will now surely wonder again why they will never elect this guy.


----------



## Macfury

Well, hell--he's going to end job insecurity. Who couldn't get behind that?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> If the NDP ever wondered why they could never elect Tom Mulcair, they will now surely wonder again why they will never elect this guy.




That seems like a bigoted statement. What's wrong with "this guy" in your view?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That seems like a bigoted statement. What's wrong with "this guy" in your view?


Jack Layton he's not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Jack Layton he's not.




Nobody is, and Jack Layton is dead at any rate. Surely you're not suggesting that there's no one who can lead the federal NDP party ever again.


----------



## SINC

The NDP will never hold power nationally, so it matters little. And time is running out for them in Alberta.


----------



## Macfury

Anyone can lead it--you could pick someone from the phone book. Nobody will achieve Layton's level of support, because he had an unusual level of charisma for a socialist. Singh's acceptance speech was dishwater dull and sounded like someone reading bullet points from an NDP election flyer.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Nobody is, and Jack Layton is dead at any rate. Surely you're not suggesting that there's no one who can lead the federal NDP party ever again.


----------



## wonderings

this is a scary line coming from a politician "During his acceptance speech Singh also tapped into his family's past financial struggles drawing attention to a pledge he made while campaigning — to end job insecurity and precarious work"

How do you end job insecurity? We can't all be public employees or is that the plan? No more independent businesses, just one big government controlled job economy. 

I work in a small family business, we have been around since 1961. We work hard and make a good living, that could all change in the drop of a hat. There is no such thing as job security for myself or anyone in similar positions. It is unrealistic and to me says they are trying to buy all those public union jobs. Nothing is more irritating then hearing these "public servants" whine about job security.


----------



## Macfury

It's really is appalling to hear that. Taking risks is part of Canada's success story. Insecurity is an incredible motivator. 

The NDP recipe for success is dishwater dull government government programs that drain a country's economic wellbeing. A great quote I heard recently: "The government creates wealth like a tick creates blood."



wonderings said:


> this is a scary line coming from a politician "During his acceptance speech Singh also tapped into his family's past financial struggles drawing attention to a pledge he made while campaigning — to end job insecurity and precarious work"
> 
> How do you end job insecurity? We can't all be public employees or is that the plan? No more independent businesses, just one big government controlled job economy.
> 
> I work in a small family business, we have been around since 1961. We work hard and make a good living, that could all change in the drop of a hat. There is no such thing as job security for myself or anyone in similar positions. It is unrealistic and to me says they are trying to buy all those public union jobs. Nothing is more irritating then hearing these "public servants" whine about job security.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's really is appalling to hear that. Taking risks is part of Canada's success story. Insecurity is an incredible motivator.
> 
> 
> 
> The NDP recipe for success is dishwater dull government government programs that drain a country's economic wellbeing. A great quote I heard recently: "The government creates wealth like a tick creates blood."



Perhaps you need a better dishwasher if yours is making everything dull. Ours sparkles!


----------



## Rps

Two things, first his election shows the flaw in the leadership selection process...only 53% of the party voted. Second they might as well write off Quebec. Without Quebec they won’t get anywhere. However he is a very clever man but the party has been in a waste land wondering what the hell happened. His major hurdle is building the party...if he can do that then you might be surprised, but if not he and the Greens will battle for last place.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Two things, first his election shows the flaw in the leadership selection process...only 53% of the party voted. Second they might as well write off Quebec. Without Quebec they won’t get anywhere. However he is a very clever man but the party has been in a waste land wondering what the hell happened. His major hurdle is building the party...if he can do that then you might be surprised, but if not he and the Greens will battle for last place.



Won't seek a seat before the election--who is this guy's advisor?


Jagmeet Singh won't seek federal Commons seat until 2019 if chosen as NDP leader - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Won't seek a seat before the election--who is this guy's advisor?
> 
> 
> Jagmeet Singh won't seek federal Commons seat until 2019 if chosen as NDP leader - Politics - CBC News


I’m thinking this isn’t a bad move on his part, the party is almost bankrupt and needs mending. Really the NDP have been without a leader in Ottawa for some time. I am also fundamentally against parachuting and bait and switch. You might find this will work for him....get to know him, glad hand and go from there. The problem is what happens if he loses in the riding he runs in? New leader?


----------



## Macfury

I think the move is based on the uncertainty of his being elected. The optics are chicken****.



Rps said:


> I’m thinking this isn’t a bad move on his part, the party is almost bankrupt and needs mending. Really the NDP have been without a leader in Ottawa for some time. I am also fundamentally against parachuting and bait and switch. You might find this will work for him....get to know him, glad hand and go from there. The problem is what happens if he loses in the riding he runs in? New leader?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I think the move is based on the uncertainty of his being elected. The optics are chicken****.


That might be true. When you see the numbers he only received favour from 1/3 or so of the party.


----------



## SINC

I think this whole episode may be destined to backfire on the NDP. While electing a visible minority member as leader may be a good thing to many, it is likely to drive many away from the party. 

A turban wearing leader is such an unusual sight to many Canadians that they may react by outright rejection of the entire party. It is apparently a risk that about one third of the party are willing to take. It may set the party back years into the future. 

And no, I am not a bigot, I am just stating what may be the overlooked, but obvious outcome of this 'experiment'.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I think this whole episode may be destined to backfire on the NDP. While electing a visible minority member as leader may be a good thing to many, it is likely to drive many away from the party.
> 
> 
> 
> A turban wearing leader is such an unusual sight to many Canadians that they may react by outright rejection of the entire party. It is apparently a risk that about one third of the party are willing to take. It may set the party back years into the future.
> 
> 
> 
> And no, I am not a bigot, I am just stating what may be the overlooked, but obvious outcome of this 'experiment'.




You are not a bigot, true, but you sure sound identical to one. There was a time when "some" Canadians assumed people would never respect a turban-wearing RCMP officer either.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> You are not a bigot, true, but you sure sound identical to one. There was a time when "some" Canadians assumed people would never respect a turban-wearing RCMP officer either.


The hard truth is that many people still do not respect a turban wearing RCMP and that is fact. Turban wearing members are just not stationed in small prairie towns for that reason. Most of them are assigned to metro detachments or international airports and the like. Nor do Legion members respect turbans in their buildings. That will take decades to heal, if it ever does. I simply point out that in spite of forced policy on the members of the public, there is still substantial resistance to such things.

This NDP experiment falls into that same category in my opinion. To deny such feelings exist is to keep your head in the sand. One has to look at the entire picture to see the landscape as it truly exists. I think it would be fair to say that the primary area of the country affected by this would be the prairies, Quebec and perhaps the maritimes. Metro Ontario areas and BC, not so much.

And finally, one can be honest and up front without being labelled a bigot or 'sounding like one'.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> And finally, one can be honest and up front without being labelled a bigot or 'sounding like one'.


Sadly not so much. Seems whenever someone realizes they are standing in quicksand they respond by attacking anyone who dares point to the quicksand. 

Not sure why it is no longer Kosher to vigorously and intelligently defend ones point of view, but attacking the opposite view does seem more the norm than the aberration.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> . I think it would be fair to say that the primary area of the country affected by this would be the prairies, Quebec and perhaps the maritimes. Metro Ontario areas and BC, not so much.'.


Quebec will be tough slogging for the NDP. There has been a backlash on people who wear religious symbols and with the most recent influx of refugees as a result of the PM unintended interpretation of his tweets on an Open Canada. But he is a clever man who has his work cut out for him. B.C. will be interesting.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> There has been a backlash on people who wear religious symbols and with the most recent influx of refugees as a result of the PM unintended interpretation of his tweets on an Open Canada.


I don't think The Hairdo's tweet meant anything other than how it has been interpreted.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> I don't think The Hairdo's tweet meant anything other than how it has been interpreted.


If you mean “come on over” you are right. Social media in Europe. South American and the Caribbean are listing that anyone can come on in without any problems....thus the lineup in Quebec. Our government is accepting “ refugees” from the U.S., which is against our international agreements. Check out a Quebec site or newspaper on the burden of the refugees, or the CBC.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> If you mean “come on over” you are right. Social media in Europe. South American and the Caribbean are listing that anyone can come on in without any problems....thus the lineup in Quebec. Our government is accepting “ refugees” from the U.S., which is against our international agreements. Check out a Quebec site or newspaper on the burden of the refugees, or the CBC.


I think that's precisely what The Hairdo meant. It's a quick & easy way to get Liberal supporting voters into the country. No slow immigration process holding you back.

I'm aware that international agreements with the US are being broken but, if you mention that on these boards, you're immediately castigated as some sort of loony alt-right -ist or another.

Same thing if you mention what the Canadian taxpayers are getting hung for: "Hater!!!"


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## FeXL

Not a surprise...

Jagmeet Singh fails his first test of leadership 



> The new NDP is all about pizazz and style, not substance, where religious orthodoxy and militancy are viewed as progressive and revolutionary.


Sound like anybody else in federal politics we know? <cough>Juthdin<cough>?

The issue?



> On Singh’s first day of work as NDP leader Monday, veteran CBC journalist Terry Milewski interviewed him on Power and Politics.
> 
> According to tweets by Milewski, Singh initially demanded to see the questions to be asked of him prior to the interview, or he’d cancel it. When this was refused, Singh reconsidered and agreed to be interviewed.
> 
> Here is a synopsis of a key exchange, where Singh danced around a simple question put to him four times by Milewski:
> 
> Milewski: Do you think that some Canadian Sikhs go too far when they honour Talwinder Singh Parmar as a martyr of the Sikh nation … when he was the architect of the Air India bombing? Do you think that’s appropriate?


----------



## Rps

FeXL, wanting to see the questions is a normal and rational request in politics. And, you were selective in not posting the part were he did condemn the violence....but you are right he did, in laymen’s view not answer the question...but in political terms he did. Ever see Harper or Cretin, or whoever answer a yes or no pointed question.....didn’t happen. Was this a fail.....average person side says yes, campaign side....not so much. But there will be more like this to come I am sure.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, wanting to see the questions is a normal and rational request in politics.


See, & there is precisely where you set a double standard. One for politicians & one for the little people. I don't see the request as rational at all. I see it as preparing the answer with soft-soap political doublespeak.

Answer the damn questions asked. Anybody worth their salt as a politician should be able to answer most questions asked. If you can't, there's no shame in saying you don't know the answer but could you get back to me later? 



Rps said:


> ...but you are right he did, in laymen’s view not answer the question...but in political terms he did.


Again, the double standard we have gifted to politicians. It's time to pull that back. Won't answer non-vetted questions? Fine. No air time, no print space, save for the public humiliation for not answering the question. The next guy will.[/QUOTE]


----------



## FeXL

I'd like to say that this is only limited to the NDP but...

The Political Class -- NDP shows new level of hypocrisy by choosing Kinew



> The Manitoba NDP, however, has taken hypocrisy to a whole new level by choosing Wab Kinew as its new leader.
> 
> What is so disappointing is the extent to which Kinew’s supporters in the NDP seem willing to park their principles at the door in their rush to make excuses for him.
> 
> To say that Kinew has a troubled history is putting it mildly. Here we have an individual whose past actions include convictions for drunk driving and assault, theft charges, as well as a pattern of hurtful, misogynistic and homophobic outbursts on social media, the latest of which occurred five years ago when Kinew was 30 and old enough to know better.
> 
> And then, of course, there are the two domestic violence charges against him involving his former common-law wife, Tara Hart. Not only did Kinew fail to mention these particular charges in his autobiography, when asked about them by the media, his response was to downplay, deflect and deny that the events ever happened.


Whatever it takes to get the next visible minority into politics. Past history be damned...


----------



## Rps

FeXL having worked in politics he gave a good political answer, but I agree 100% with you on the I don’t know will get back to you later. Unfortunately that doesn’t get many votes......but it should!


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> I'd like to say that this is only limited to the NDP but...
> 
> The Political Class -- NDP shows new level of hypocrisy by choosing Kinew
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever it takes to get the next visible minority into politics. Past history be damned...


Don’t know the man, but half of your quote sounds like Trump. The number one rule of government is to maintain being elected. If there is accuracy in the post, it is a sad day for the NDP


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> See, & there is precisely where you set a double standard.


People at work usually speak differently than people not at work. 

Add to that, I get RPS' point, and think it works for the target audience. It is to compete against the fringe "liberals" that Trudeau attracted, not people who expect a vehement denouncement of a mass murderer. 

Bad idea to me, but I'm not a "leaning" NDP voter for increasingly obvious reasons.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> People at work usually speak differently than people not at work.


Can't argue with that. I swear a lot more at work than at home. 



Beej said:


> Add to that, I get RPS' point, and think it works for the target audience.


But just whom is the target audience? Shouldn't it be the people? Is this all merely performance art for the media?


----------



## FeXL

Wayne Long, Liberal MP, Skips Caucus Meeting After Voting Against Own Party On Tax Consultations



> "There most likely could be consequences."


More:



> A Liberal MP skipped his party's weekly caucus meeting Wednesday, a day after he went rogue and voted in favour of a Conservative motion to extend consultations on the government's proposed tax reforms.
> 
> Wayne Long was the only Liberal to vote "yea." He was applauded by Tory MPs when he rose from his seat.


Further:



> Long told HuffPost his vote was shaped by his experience as a small business owner. A 75-day consultation period isn't long enough to justify implementation of contentious set of tax reforms, he said.
> 
> "Doctors against nurses, put farmers on the defensive, and made lawyers, small business and professionals feel vilified," the Saint John — Rothesay MP wrote on Facebook after the Tuesday vote.


The Hairdo ain't gonna stand for anybody who doesn't toe the party line. Wonder what kinda socks he's going to wear? Jolly Roger's? The Hangman?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Could this, in combination with the so-called tax "reforms", be the bastards' Waterloo? :clap:

Barbara Kay: Liberals left reeling by clear, rational criticisms of M-103



> On Sept 20, Toronto Sun columnist Tarek Fatah (himself a victim of oppressive speech codes in his native Pakistan) testified that discouraging or limiting criticism of Islam would, in effect, most harm those secular or free-thinking Muslims who came to Canada precisely for the freedom to speak their mind to Islamic authority figures as they could not do in their countries of origin. In any case, *“You cannot define (Islamophobia),” he charged, “because the word is a fraud.”* According to Fatah, these bold challenges earned him such frosty treatment from “the phalanx of Liberal MPs” and “haranguing” from Fry that one MP contacted him later to apologize for the “intimidation and bullying” he had experienced.


M'bold.

No argument.

More:



> Raheel Raza, president of the reform-oriented Council for Muslims Facing Tomorrow, asked, *“Why are only Muslims mentioned by name?” and, “It’s not the government’s responsibility to babysit just one community.”* She suggested that instead of the government deflecting attention from retrograde Islamic behaviours like honour killings and polygamy, Canada should take a leadership role in encouraging a return to a “free thinking” model of Islam, once a widespread norm.


Also my bold.

Good read.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Once again, either Liberal lies or Liberal hypocrisy. Or maybe just Liberals, period...

Scheer Rips Deceitful Trudeau For Paying Khadr While Fighting Indigenous Girl In Court Over Dental Treatment



> Today in Question Period, Andrew Scheer asked why Justin Trudeau gave $10.5 million to Omar Khadr to “save money” on legal fees, but has spent over $100,000 in court to deny a $6,000 dental treatment to an Indigenous girl.
> 
> There has been growing outrage over the total hypocrisy of the Trudeau government, and the government has had no good answers for it. That didn’t change, as rather than answer the actual question, Trudeau ended up spouting off his talking points about Khadr’s “rights.”


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Ottawa, provinces must not let marijuana tax debate overshadow policy priorities

First off, the meat:



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has proposed a 10-per-cent federal tax on sales of marijuana with 50-50 revenue-sharing with the provinces.


Second, the pixie dust (gee, wonder what side of the argument the authors are on):



> The Prime Minister's proposal features *a perfectly reasonable tax rate* and revenue-sharing arrangement for recreational marijuana. Our analysis shows that a 10-per-cent tax results in $400-million to $450-million in combined tax revenues and more than 90 per cent of the recreational market being regulated, assuming prices for legal marijuana stay similar to their current level of $7.50 a gram.


M'bold.

What's Reagan's old saw?



> Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.


Yep.

h/t SDA, from whence comes this prescient observation in the comments:



> Fighting over revenue while the street sellers are laughing all the way to the bank.


Again, yep.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canadian PM Justin Trudeau omitted mention of Jews in dedicating National Holocaust Monument



> *Canada was the last industrialized country to officially commemorate the Holocaust* and only last week dedicated its National Holocaust Monument in Ottawa.
> 
> The design of it clearly evokes and honors the six-point Star of David emblem of Judaism:
> 
> *Yet the plaque Canada's Prime Minister Trudeau unveiled last week at the dedication of the monument omitted any mention of Jews.*


My bold

:yikes:

I got nuttin'...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Canadian PM Justin Trudeau omitted mention of Jews in dedicating National Holocaust Monument
> 
> 
> 
> My bold
> 
> :yikes:
> 
> I got nuttin'...


Since we're talking holocaust I wonder if any mention is made of the 100s of thousands German Civilians killed in the fire bombings of Hamburg, Dresdan and may other German cities? How about the Million or so Japanese killed in the WWII firebombings of nearly 60 Japanese cities? The victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Why exclude those killed in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Palestine and Yemen?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Exactly why is The Dope pushing pot so hard? 'Cause he's running low on Alberta's petroleum taxes...

TransCanada terminates plan for $15.7 billion Energy East pipeline



> TransCanada Corp. has scrapped its Energy East Pipeline and Eastern Mainline projects, oil and natural gas conduits that have faced regulatory hurdles in Canada and stiff opposition from environmental groups.


So,

1) It makes far more sense to a Prog to transport what is generally accepted as some of the dirtiest crude on the planet all the way from Venezuela via bunker-fuelled tanker ships to New Brunswick's processors instead of constructing a pipeline across the country that would pump billions into local, provincial & national economies.

2) The last time I heard serious talk about Alberta separating was when The Hairdo's old man was still at the helm. Guess what? The conversation has restarted under the spawn...


----------



## Macfury

B-b-b-b-ut smart Rachel and canny Trudeau formed an alliance to buy social license through an Alberta carbon tax. Pure brilliance!




FeXL said:


> Exactly why is The Dope pushing pot so hard? 'Cause he's running low on Alberta's petroleum taxes...
> 
> TransCanada terminates plan for $15.7 billion Energy East pipeline
> 
> 
> 
> So,
> 
> 1) It makes far more sense to a Prog to transport what is generally accepted as some of the dirtiest crude on the planet all the way from Venezuela via bunker-fuelled tanker ships to New Brunswick's processors instead of constructing a pipeline across the country that would pump billions into local, provincial & national economies.
> 
> 2) The last time I heard serious talk about Alberta separating was when The Hairdo's old man was still at the helm. Guess what? The conversation has restarted under the spawn...


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Since we're talking holocaust I wonder if any mention is made of the 100s of thousands German Civilians killed in the fire bombings of Hamburg, Dresdan and may other German cities? How about the Million or so Japanese killed in the WWII firebombings of nearly 60 Japanese cities? The victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Why exclude those killed in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Palestine and Yemen?


Might be because it is a Jewish Holocaust memorial. Why not just make a plaque for everyone who has ever died in a war, would be like a big participation medal so everyone feels better about it and no one is left out.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> Might be because it is a Jewish Holocaust memorial. Why not just make a plaque for everyone who has ever died in a war, would be like a big participation medal so everyone feels better about it and no one is left out.


Then clearly Palestinian victims should also be included!

Otherwise that is the point. There were and continue to be atrocities equal to or greater than the misnamed holocaust. They deserve equal recognition even though committed by the so-called good guys. And that's without including Stalin's victims, an order of magnitude above and beyond the others mentioned.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Then clearly Palestinian victims should also be included!
> 
> Otherwise that is the point. There were and continue to be atrocities equal to or greater than the misnamed holocaust. They deserve equal recognition even though committed by the so-called good guys. And that's without including Stalin's victims, an order of magnitude above and beyond the others mentioned.


If you care that much about it start it up yourself. So easy to say this should be done and that should be done while never doing anything to make it happen yourself. The Jewish people have done a lot to remember the horrific holocaust and to never let it happen to them again. 

No one is saying it is the worst, but it is being remembered. Not sure why people need to start naming every other atrocity and feel some injustice is being done if we do not name them all when one is named.

As far as I know this is a Holocaust museum remembering the Jewish Holocaust, and again that is why all those others would not be mentioned because it is not about them.


----------



## Dr.G.

wonderings said:


> If you care that much about it start it up yourself. So easy to say this should be done and that should be done while never doing anything to make it happen yourself. The Jewish people have done a lot to remember the horrific holocaust and to never let it happen to them again.
> 
> No one is saying it is the worst, but it is being remembered. Not sure why people need to start naming every other atrocity and feel some injustice is being done if we do not name them all when one is named.
> 
> As far as I know this is a Holocaust museum remembering the Jewish Holocaust, and again that is why all those others would not be mentioned because it is not about them.


A valid point, wonderings. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> If you care that much about it start it up yourself. So easy to say this should be done and that should be done while never doing anything to make it happen yourself. The Jewish people have done a lot to remember the horrific holocaust and to never let it happen to them again.
> 
> No one is saying it is the worst, but it is being remembered. Not sure why people need to start naming every other atrocity and feel some injustice is being done if we do not name them all when one is named.
> 
> As far as I know this is a Holocaust museum remembering the Jewish Holocaust, and again that is why all those others would not be mentioned because it is not about them.


Yup. I'm also not as concerned about what happens to civilians in aggressor nations. The firebombing of Dresden was awful, but only followed regular bombings of a large part of the world and dreadful atrocities against Jews on German soil.


----------



## FeXL

Wonder how many of them were hit by oil tankers coming in from Venezuela...

Right Whales Found Dead In Gulf Of St. Lawrence Died From Blunt Force Trauma



> Veterinarians examining the carcasses of six right whales found dead in the Gulf of St. Lawrence this summer say four died from blunt force trauma, one was entangled in fishing gear and the other was too decomposed to say for sure.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> But just whom is the target audience? Shouldn't it be the people? Is this all merely performance art for the media?


I provided some detail on my best guess (the progressive types that Trudeau attracted).

More broadly, one approach to politics is to build a "coalition" of voters. Target certain demographics or interests and make your pitch to them, and demonstrate that you know what they care about. Try for low 50%s in the U.S. or low 40%s in Canada. Even less works, as we've seen.

I can't recall the last major campaign that did not look like it used the above approach. Or the last leader who did not know to tread lightly around certain key topics that their base (volunteers, donors, most ardent supporters) cared about.

Until recently.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> I provided some detail on my best guess (the progressive types that Trudeau attracted).


Ah. My mistake.

Performance Art for the groupies...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

It only gets better.

'Yet another carbon tax': Canada's 'single biggest carbon-fighting policy' you've probably never heard of



> The government’s plan also includes a suite of lesser-known policies, including a proposed clean fuel standard that some say amounts to a second carbon tax.
> 
> The new standard, likely unknown to most Canadians, could actually have more of an impact than a carbon price in cutting Canada’s carbon emissions to 30 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030, according to some experts.
> 
> “It’s big,” said Jeremy Moorhouse, a senior analyst with Clean Energy Canada. “It’s the single biggest carbon-fighting policy in the pan-Canadian framework.”
> 
> The government is expected to release a framework for the clean fuel standard this fall, but in a discussion paper published in February, it suggested the standard would require a 10 to 15 per cent reduction in the carbon intensity of fuels used in transportation, homes and industry. That could be achieved by mixing more renewable fuel like ethanol into gasoline or switching to lower-carbon fuels like electricity, natural gas and hydrogen. The standard would be accompanied by a credit-trading system.


Perfect. And any fuel systems not designed for 20% (or more) ethanol content will quickly deteriorate & stop running.

Beauty...


----------



## Macfury

We know how well ethanol is working in the US. Massive subsidies and an increase in food prices as energy companies compete with consumers for corn product.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> We know how well ethanol is working in the US. Massive subsidies and an increase in food prices as energy companies compete with consumers for corn product.


You & I know that. But the left cares little for such minutiae en route to saving a planet that doesn't need their help & will be functioning normally long after they're gone...


----------



## FeXL

Lived here all my life. I've never seen Canadian Liberal arrogance _under_ control...

Liberal arrogance out of control



> In recent days, Liberals walked out of Parliament’s status of women committee because they refused to recognize its new, duly constituted chair, Conservative MP Rachael Harder, solely because they disagree with her views on abortion. Not only is this anti-democratic — Harder answers to the voters of Lethbridge, Alberta, not the Liberal caucus — Trudeau shamefully endorsed what they had done.
> 
> Carolyn Bennett, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, called on Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer not just to rebuke Conservative Senator Lynn Beyak — which is fair comment — but to throw her out of the Conservative caucus, for expressing her view that residential schools did good as well as harm. Bennett wants Beyak declared a political leper, literally, for thought crime.


Yet:



> Liberals on another parliamentary committee considering their M-103 “Islamophobia” motion insulted and attacked my Sun Media colleague, Tarek Fatah, who appeared as a witness and who has devoted his life — often at the risk of death — to opposing Islamist tyranny and terrorism. Why? Because Fatah has criticized M-103.
> 
> This committee is chaired by Liberal MP Hedy Fry, who once falsely accused white people living in Prince George, B.C. of burning crosses on their lawns.


Ah, the compassionate, intellectual, left...


----------



## eMacMan

A bit of a crazy sounding proposal here;

I am going to suggest that Justin and some of his top cabinet members take a week long junket to Aspen. Let them enjoy lush hotel rooms, skiing, hookers, Coors beer, cannabis and gourmet meals all at taxpayer expense. 

But before they come home let them gather all the information they can as to how Colorado regulates cannabis and particularly medical cannabis. Bring home the entire code book!

After they come home they can simply pirate a proven successful model and make it into their own regulations. This is particularly important on the medical side. A lot of us are reaching the age where medical marijuana can be part of cancer, glaucoma and other treatments, and there is no sane reason to create regs that tie everyone up in red-tape at a time when their health is already suffering.

A win for the country and I'm sure Justin and his selfie crowd would love the perk as well.


----------



## Macfury

Whether it's legalized or not should not be based on tax revenue, but simply the right of an individual to pollute their own body.


----------



## FeXL

Wynne taking a page out of Red Rachel's notebook.

Ontario jobs' spike mostly government hires



> Governments are crowing about how many jobs Ontario created last month.
> 
> And so they should, since they hired almost half of them.


----------



## CubaMark

_On the demise of the Energy East pipeline, Corcoran's piece in the Financial Post looks reasonable to me. Worth a read, at any rate:_

Terence Corcoran: Economic reality killed the Energy East pipe dream — and that’s good | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

If falling prices alone were the reason, then the recent uptick in oil prices would have sustained it. Chalk this one up to Trudeau's green megalomania.


----------



## SINC

An excellent red as to how The Hairdoo is sticking it to western Canada:

Kelly McParland: Liberals divide country with unflappable Bombardier support, disregard for energy | National Post


----------



## FeXL

Pretty much the feelings hereabouts...

Medicine Hat Mayor: “The mayor of Montreal is a moron”



> The Mayor of Medicine Hat had some harsh words for anti-Pipeline Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre.
> 
> ...
> 
> “The mayor of Montreal is, frankly, a moron,” he said. “You have the mayor of Vancouver who is similar, who would rather buy oil from a dictatorship and have it imported.”


Time to push a pipeline south right past my house...


----------



## Macfury

They _would_ rather buy oil from a dictatorship--at least that's something they could get behind!


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> An excellent red as to how The Hairdoo is sticking it to western Canada:
> 
> Kelly McParland: Liberals divide country with unflappable Bombardier support, disregard for energy | National Post


Sinc, Tommy Douglas once said that Canada was like a cow, the West feeds it, Ontario and Quebec milk it, and the Maritimes.....you get the idea.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Sinc, Tommy Douglas once said that Canada was like a cow, the West feeds it, Ontario and Quebec milk it, and the Maritimes.....you get the idea.


Rps, at least the fertilizer replenishes the fields...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s NEP redux: a No-Energy Program 



> When he was prime minister in the 1980s, Pierre Trudeau beggared the West with his NEP – the infamous National Energy Program.
> 
> Now, his son Justin appears intent on beggaring the West again with a new NEP – a No-Energy Program.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Wallowing in that diversity & multiculturalism...

CBSA's most wanted: drugs, sex and terror



> There are hundreds of foreign-born criminals wandering the streets of Canada.
> 
> They are ruled inadmissible, then vanish into the ether.
> 
> Take Somali national Abdulahi Sharif, 30, if you will. Sharif is accused of stabbing an Edmonton cop then tried to ram his car into innocent bystanders.
> 
> Beside him, he had an ISIS flag.
> 
> He was granted refugee status in Canada in 2012 after being ordered booted from the U.S.
> 
> In 2015, the RCMP learned he was allegedly pushing his jihadist worldview. Then they dropped it.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Prime Minister Trudeau thinks Canadians achieve better lives through government dependence



> *As a recent study found, when the Trudeau government’s tax changes are broadly considered (including both the tax rate reduction and the elimination of these tax credits), 81 per cent of middle-class Canadian families with children are paying more in personal income taxes—$840 more per year, on average*.
> 
> When recently confronted with this reality on the floor of the House of Commons, Prime Minister Trudeau did not deny it. He simply responded by pointing to the increased government transfers his government has provided to qualifying Canadian families—specifically, the Canada Child Benefit (CCB), a new transfer to qualifying parents with young children that combined several previous programs and increased the cash benefit.
> 
> To be clear, the CCB is a transfer program that fosters dependence on government; it’s not a policy that rewards hard work by allowing Canadians to keep more of what they earn. Essentially, the prime minister is saying the government will take more away from what you earn and give some of it back to certain families. This hardly fits with the government’s rhetoric on hard work and building a better life.


M'bold.

Must be more of that Prog math at work...


----------



## FeXL

*Because t's 2015!*

I know. It's difficult to believe the headline.

Not only that but recall Liberal MP Wayne Long who voted against the cabal? Well, the consequences have started...

Trudeau breaks another promise



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau this week removed Liberal MP Wayne Long from two government committee positions as punishment for voting alongside Conservatives on small business tax reforms.
> 
> There’s been visceral outrage across the country – including in Long’s riding – among small business owners and professionals who see the Liberal “reform” as a job-killing tax grab.
> 
> Long, a New Brunswick MP, supported a Conservative move to extend the consultation period on the federal government’s proposed tax revisions.
> 
> In retribution, he’s been de facto stripped of whatever minimal powers he’d held.


----------



## FeXL

So, in this day & age of "justice", 3 years for child porn will getcha a bare 18 months...

Ex-deputy education minister, jailed for child porn charges, out on parole



> His prison sentence runs until May 28, 2018 but that could have been disgraced educator Benjamin Levin you saw walking around in Toronto.
> 
> The 65-year-old former Ontario deputy education minister and member of Premier Kathleen Wynne’s 2013 transition team was jailed in May 2015 for sickening and disturbing online child pornography activities.
> 
> Levin, it turns out, has been on parole for some time.


----------



## FeXL

Oh, they're not gonna like that...

KPMG report takes aim at post-secondary education



> KPMG’s massive financial report has advised the Manitoba government to freeze college and university grants, hike tuition, tell schools to raise more funds privately, and target funding to programs that show tangible results and can prove value for money.
> 
> The consulting firm also recommended the province hold post-secondary institution salaries down and use the government’s ability to control the flow of money to force universities and colleges to cut duplicated programs and end programs it deems ineffective.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Rich.



> PM LookAtMySocks is worried about stoking regional divisions.
> 
> The Gov't propaganda in question.
> 
> Q. How many conversations over the Thanksgiving table will involve politics?
> 
> A. All of them.
> 
> Fortunately, the Liberals have released their talking points for the true believers:
> 
> [email protected]_party releases talking points to help members handle #Thanksgiving dinner, taking permanent campaign in #CDNpoli to new levels pic.twitter.com/TaN3eJD1QK
> — Paul Thomas (@pejthomas) October 7, 2017


If he's really concerned about "stoking regional divisions", he should look in his own backyard at Bombardier first...

Many of the comments are priceless.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

This is what happens when western Canadian oil stays in the ground and you have a cadre of spending idiots in Ottawa.

Trudeau's tax hounds salivate over discounted hot dogs



> Who would have thought retail sales clerks, hardly perceived as at the top of the financial food chain, were such tax-evading scofflaws that the Trudeau Liberals would be unleashing the taxman on them?
> 
> But they are.
> 
> The young woman slogging long hours in the food court at your local mall, making assembly-line subs or keeping the steamers filled with Chinese noodles, is apparently taking us all for a ride with the staff discount she gets when it comes to paying for her own lunch.
> 
> Ditto for the clerk in the pencil skirt who works two part-time jobs to get by, and who got a 20% staff discount on her dress so she can look as well-dressed as the store’s fashionable mannequins.
> 
> Tax cheats all.


Luvs me the article photo. PM Socks doesn't look off the rail at all. Priceless...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Trudeau's tax hounds salivate over discounted hot dogs


For a rather less-bombastic take on this: Revenue Canada to tax employee discounts but Ottawa says it's not 'targeting' retail workers - Politics - CBC News

I don't know who in the Finance Dept. thought that this would be a good idea. It looks like it will never actually be enforced (ridiculous paperwork burden on employers), but simply from the optics, there's no upside to this for the Liberals. Total bonehead move.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Total bonehead move.


Nothing that I did not expect from a bonehead PM.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> This is what happens when western Canadian oil stays in the ground and you have a cadre of spending idiots in Ottawa.
> 
> Trudeau's tax hounds salivate over discounted hot dogs
> 
> 
> 
> Luvs me the article photo. PM Socks doesn't look off the rail at all. Priceless...





CubaMark said:


> For a rather less-bombastic take on this: Revenue Canada to tax employee discounts but Ottawa says it's not 'targeting' retail workers - Politics - CBC News
> 
> I don't know who in the Finance Dept. thought that this would be a good idea. It looks like it will never actually be enforced (ridiculous paperwork burden on employers), but simply from the optics, there's no upside to this for the Liberals. Total bonehead move.


Amen Brother.

Think about this, if he attempts to collect on employee discounts it becomes discriminatory unless he applies it to everyone who gets a discount. So I "saved" $6 on an overpriced steak last week. I would have to pay income tax on that. Fat chance airhead.


----------



## FeXL

Unprovoked attack on 75-year-old woman 'the most severe beating I've seen,' says Windsor surgeon



> The shocking weekend assault of a 75-year-old woman left her with head injuries so terrible that the surgeon who treated her says they’re among the worst he’s seen in his medical career in Windsor.


More:



> Windsor resident Habibullah Ahmad, 21, who goes by the first name Daniel, has been charged with one count of aggravated assault. He remained in custody at press time.


Wait for it...


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Nothing that I did not expect from a bonehead PM.


The Federal Revenue Minister says she did not approve a new tax, and that the folio was issued by a CRA bureaucrat. Folio removed, no taxing of employee discounts (CBC)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The horror!

RCMP officers screened Quebec border crossers on religion and values, questionnaire shows



> RCMP officers have been screening Muslim refugee claimants entering from the U.S. at Quebec’s Roxham Rd. crossing, asking how they feel about women who do not wear the hijab, how many times they pray, and their opinion about the Taliban and the Islamic State, a questionnaire obtained by the Star shows.
> 
> The 41 questions appear to specifically target Muslims, as no other religious practices are mentioned, nor terrorist groups with non-Muslim members.


Seems to me that the questions are fair, considering that Muslims are the main terrorists the planet over.

However, we no longer have to worry about offending potential terrorists 'cause the questionnaire is no longer used:



> When asked about the questionnaire, a spokesperson for Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale told the Star the RCMP has suspended its use.


So, I have a question for those of you who are endorsing our world-class, 24 karat gold plated vetting process: If the RCMP or the Canadian gov't or whomever isn't actually allowed to ask any questions about the religion of most terrorists in the world, precisely how do we actually screen refugees?

Also in the article we come across this:



> The 41 questions appear to specifically target Muslims, as no other religious practices are mentioned, nor terrorist groups with non-Muslim members.


Do you know why there has never been a successful terror attack on an Israeli plane since 1972? Do you know why Israel is so effective at screening terrorists from the population?

'Cause they know who the most likely people to be terrorists are & they are profiled. Period.


----------



## FeXL

Why Canada’s ‘best’ health-care system just got ranked last — again



> [The New York Times] also offers a weekly “Canada letter” on worthwhile and actually sometimes interesting Canadian initiatives. Recently the letter reported on a health-care tournament the Times organized in which five experts decided which of eight rich countries had the best health-care system.
> 
> We didn’t win. In fact, we went out in the first round, losing to Britain, which then lost to Switzerland, which ultimately beat France, though only by three votes to two in the final. Other first-round losers were Singapore, Australia and Germany. The U.S. made it to the semis where it was beaten by France, three votes to two.


More:



> How come our “best in the world” health-care system fizzled in the first round? Wait times. Explained professor of paediatrics Aaron E. Carroll and health economist Austin Frakt, the U.S. experts the Times relied on: “only 43 per cent of Canadians were able to see a doctor or nurse on the same or next day when they needed care… Half of them had to wait two or more hours for care in the emergency room… 30 per cent of them had to wait two or more months to see a specialist … and 18 per cent had to wait four or more months for elective surgery.” These figures are all according to an international comparison published by the Commonwealth Fund, which does world-leading research on health policy. On three of those metrics we were dead last among 11 countries the fund surveyed, and on the fourth we were tied for last.
> 
> *On first reading those numbers I thought, wow, only two hours in emergency! What tricks do those patients use?*


M'bold.

Yep.


----------



## Macfury

> On first reading those numbers I thought, wow, only two hours in emergency! What tricks do those patients use?


My thoughts exactly. Try 8 hours or more. Have personal knowledge of kids being taken in for routine colds because it's easier than going to the doctor during the day, man going in because he drank booze and was feeling unsteady, and woman brought in by ambulance for a mild sunburn on her foot.



FeXL said:


> Why Canada’s ‘best’ health-care system just got ranked last — again


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> The Federal Revenue Minister says she did not approve a new tax, and that the folio was issued by a CRA bureaucrat. Folio removed, no taxing of employee discounts (CBC)


Has the stench of a trial balloon that turned to s#!t so rapidly, that the PM resorted to an age old dodge, in order to distance himself from the stench.


----------



## Macfury

Exactly my thought. If this idea had not been so heavily ridiculed, the trial balloon would have become law. This whole effort to rake over small businesses to extract a few coins is appalling.



eMacMan said:


> Has the stench of a trial balloon that turned to s#!t so rapidly, that the PM resorted to an age old dodge, in order to distance himself from the stench.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Budget Cover Cost $212,234



> The Department of Finance spent nearly a quarter-million dollars on artistic themes for its 2017 budget, say Access To Information records. Costs included $89,500 for talent fees and photos of models posing as middle class Canadians.


Guess middle class Canadians are so rare these days they needed to find models to portray us.

Hey, Piggy, where's your souiee now?

B-b-bb-bu-but...DUFFYYYYYYY!!!


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo was pretty excited about Canada posting an estimated 3% GDP growth this year under Trudeau. Problem is, world GDP rose an estimated 3.7%. 

Guess the government hogs at the trough were sucking the economy dry with overspending. SOOUIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEE!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Jimbo was pretty excited about Canada posting an estimated 3% GDP growth this year under Trudeau. Problem is, world GDP rose an estimated 3.7%.


C'mon! That's leaves us barely 20% behind the planet as a whole.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Related to the above.

Signs of Canada's economic slowdown are no longer 'just a one-off blip'

Subhead:


> The red-hot growth we saw in the first six months of the year is slowing significantly, another argument for the Bank of Canada to take a breather


And the Liberals...



> “Weakness was spread across a few sectors including metals, industrial machinery and consumer goods, while some sectors that fell sharply in July — autos and aircrafts — saw little rebound in August,” Kavcic said. “Meantime, imports were flat in the month.”
> 
> These concerns come as most forecasters, including the Bank of Canada, are anticipating lower-for-longer economic growth beginning in the second half of 2017, after high-firing annualized output of 4.5 per cent over the first six months of the year that was met with two quick interest rate hikes by monetary policymakers.
> 
> “There is now downside risk cast on our overall Q3 GDP call — currently 2.5 per cent — and is another argument for the Bank of Canada to take a breather (on future rate hike),” said Kavcic, and something central bank Governor Stephen Poloz has indicated would be a prudent position to take for now.


I have a quibble with the author of the article.

How do you discuss Canada's economy without mentioning once oil or petroleum & the fallout those cutbacks have caused?

Related:

Trudeau by the numbers: They're bad



> Canadians cannot rely on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for even remotely accurate information about the state of federal finances.
> 
> His wildly inconsistent and contradictory statements about government deficits before, during and after the 2015 election illustrate the point.
> 
> In 2014, Trudeau made his infamous observation that budgets balance themselves, before repeatedly assuring Canadians in the run-up to the 2015 election his government would run balanced budgets.


In sum:



> So in Trudeau’s world, coming in 80% higher on the deficit in your first year in office, as opposed to an earlier projection of 132% higher, is good enough for government work.


Yep.


----------



## SINC

HairDoo drooping?

Justin Trudeau’s flying unicorn hits a storm

https://www.economist.com/news/amer...e-mistakes-and-suffer-mishaps-justin-trudeaus


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, the dope wants to legalize pot by July 1 next year & he doesns't even know how how much is too much to drive.

Trudeau Government Can’t Say How Much Pot Is Too Much To Drive



> While pushing full speed ahead on legalizing recreational marijuana, the Trudeau government can’t say how much of the drug makes someone too stoned to drive.
> 
> According to CBC News, a draft report released Friday on how marijuana is concentrated in the body does not state how much consumption will push a user over the legal limit to drive — as the blood alcohol content rating clearly states.


More:



> *The government recommends that “the safest approach for anyone who chooses to consume cannabis is to not mix their consumption with driving.”*


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Yeah, let's jes' run with that, Juthdin. And if anybody in my family gets in an accident caused by a stoner, the first thing I do is sue the pants off the Feds. I'll settle for a cheque in the amount of $10.5 million...

What a Charlie Foxtrot. Those of you who voted for this idiot should be ashamed...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on The Hairdo & his cadre of brain dead fools...

Trudeau's liberals make one blunder after another 



> Justin and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good Very Bad Month is a reality TV show you might be watching if you’ve been paying attention to Ottawa lately
> 
> And what can often be blamed on poorly executed communications plans is far more sinister. From the outright public disparagement of small business to selective feminism and a flawed understanding of history, this government has shown us that communications is the least of their problems.


Related:

Trudeau’s trying times



> Halfway through his electoral mandate, won on the night of Oct. 19, 2015, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau faces a sudden and unexpected drop in the polls, *along with a growing list of broken promises from that election*


M'bold.

The list is long & distinguished.

Hey, Piggy, where's the criticism for broken Liberal promises & outright lies? Or are ideologues such as yourself unable to muster any reprobation against the Mother Ship, no matter what?

Soooouuuuuuiiiieeeeee!!!

related, too.:

The truth is the Liberals have been itching to tax discounts for decades 



> Was the Trudeau government really blindsided by the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) over the taxing of employee discounts, as they claim?


More:



> *Except the official government version is bumph*, according to a senior source at Finance Canada.
> 
> He says the Trudeau government knew all along what the CRA was planning. The announcement was made in response to a court decision that is almost six years old. The Liberals only backed off when the public found out and were outraged.
> 
> (Now you’re free to imagine that had they been able to sneak it by Canadians, the Liberals would have stuck with this tax increase.)
> 
> *My friend reminded me that the first Finance Minister to propose taxing employee discounts was Allan MacEachen – in 1983! When Justin’s father, Pierre, was prime minister!*


M'bold.

Quelle surprise!!! I remember that bastard. OK, both of them...

And what's this causing?

Canada’s Catalonia? Careful Ottawa, western alienation is beginning to rear its head again

I'll go right to the punchline:



> Today, Western Canada is nowhere close to the separation push of Catalonia. However, if Ottawa’s public policy keeps handing Canada’s Coderres their “victories” by hurting Western opportunities, this country’s regional conflicts of claim will bring consequences difficult to predict.


Municipal election in Alberta tomorrow. Interesting how often recent conversations about local politics swung to The Hairdo & discussion of Western separation came up...


----------



## SINC

Yeah, pretty much. Khadr should have gotten the same reaction, not $10 million.



> If we are expected to express joy at the release of Canadian Joshua Boyle who was held hostage five years by Taliban-linked extremists, excuse us if we take a pass.
> He’s both an idiot and a fool.


A fool's homecoming | | Toronto Sun


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

_The Beaverton _is shockingly unfunny. It actually makes _Kim's Convenience_ look like a comedy by comparison.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> _The Beaverton _is shockingly unfunny. It actually makes _Kim's Convenience_ look like a comedy by comparison.




Perhaps you are the one who lacks a sense of humour. Unless you're the one telling the joke, of course.


----------



## Macfury

I have met people who guffaw at the slightest effort at a gag. You may be one of these people. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps you are the one who lacks a sense of humour. Unless you're the one telling the joke, of course.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I have met people who guffaw at the slightest effort at a gag. You may be one of these people.


The good news is since Trudeau became PM this whole thread has become a joke for me. :lmao:


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

Hey all you neo nazi lovin, fake news, anti islamicists, in spite of the "you see pee" attempt to unseat Mayor Nenshi, Calgary now has a 3pete mayor. Imagine that. From a "religion of peace" background too.

I wonder if post media will be headlining more fake pollster studies anytime soon.


----------



## Rps

Say Sinc, what’s your take on the Calgary election....everyone returned.....pundits wrong (again). Could this be good news for Notley?


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Say Sinc, what’s your take on the Calgary election....everyone returned.....pundits wrong (again). Could this be good news for Notley?


Well, the two cannot even remotely be compared in my opinion. 

Notley and her government are universally detested in almost all of Alberta but Calgary, traditional home of the oil patch, hates her party worse than any other area. 

The only area of Alberta that are foolish enough to support the NDP is Edmonton, home of the provincial government and their highly unionized employees, but even there her popularity is fading and is rampant among non union voters.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Well, the two cannot even remotely be compared in my opinion.


I agree. I don't see a connection.

Nenshi won because he played the race card, not because he's an outstanding person or politician.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Piggy, guess the west isn't as ******* & Islamophobic as you Progs make us out to be!!!

Yet one more thing yer wrong about.

Quelle surprise...



FUXL said:


> From a "religion of peace" background too.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Here's another one for ya, Piggy. Going to coast past this one like all the others? Souiee!!!

Kent calls on ethics commissioner to investigate Morneau over corporation that holds French villa



> Finance Minister Bill Morneau is facing a call for an investigation into his failure for two years to disclose one of his private corporations to Canada's ethics watchdog.
> 
> In a letter to Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson, Conservative MP Peter Kent asks her to take a closer look at SCI Mas des Morneau, a company incorporated in France that owns and manages Morneau's villa in the picturesque town of Oppède in France's Provence region. Morneau and his wife, Nancy McCain, are listed as partners.
> 
> While Morneau's office says the finance minister had previously told Dawson about the villa, he only disclosed the private corporation on Sept. 22 after CBC News began asking questions about it.


The only thing that shocks me about this story is that MotherCorpse actually questioned a Liberal...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Nenshi won because he played the race card, ....


Care to explain what you mean by that, FeXL?

This should be interesting.


----------



## FeXL

You claim to be reasonably well read about Canada/US news. You may wish to try other news sources...

Naheed Nenshi feeling the heat as Calgary mayoral race tightens



> This week, Mr. Nenshi was criticized for a get-out-the-vote video message directed at Calgary's Pakistani community that warned of hateful, racist messages being circulated on social media. "There are forces out there in the community that are supporting my opponents, who really want us to go backward – that don't want a city that is so inclusive of everyone."


Corbella: Nenshi should ignore online haters and not play the race card



> Indeed, after the Facebook video created a new social media storm, Nenshi’s campaign issued a release stating that, “The comments from a small minority have been magnified by automated bots and anonymous accounts online.”


'Course! It's always the "bots". If that's true, then why the need to put together a video? Defensive, much?

Bill Smith accuses Nenshi of playing the race card in a bid to stir up support 



> The story starts with a short video featuring Nenshi. It was on Facebook this past long weekend.
> 
> It’s not there now.
> 
> Most Calgarians didn’t likely see it while it was up.
> 
> They were busy with the turkey on the dinner table, not with any and all turkeys who might be gobbling on the less appetizing political menu.
> 
> On the video, Nenshi urges his audience to get out and vote. It is a message for Calgary’s Pakistani community.
> 
> Nenshi says the election is “very, very tight.”
> 
> The mayor says forces out there supporting his opponents really want Calgary to “go backwards” and don’t want a city “so inclusive of everyone.”


More:



> He tells the Pakistani community, these trolls who back other candidates are getting individuals who might be racists and haters out to vote.


Further:



> On Tuesday, Nenshi says he’s not actually suggesting his opponents, such as Smith, are organizing a racist voter drive.


Bull$h!t. The second you say you're not actually suggesting your opponents are organizing a racist voter drive is the exact moment in time when when you do.

And, curious the video was suddenly pulled.


----------



## FeXL

Great! Just the kind of folk we should all trust with censoring & "Fake News"...

Facebook set to unveil plan to guard against fake news during Canadian election campaign



> Facebook is set to unveil a made-in-Canada measure to guard the 2019 vote from the scourge of fake news and misinformation online — while south of the border the social media heavyweight details how foreign players may have used the platform to spread discord in the 2016 presidential election.
> 
> The new tool, billed as the “Canadian Election Integrity Initiative,” is a response to a warning from the country’s top cybersecurity agency in June that multiple hacker groups would “almost certainly” attempt to influence the next federal election.


More:



> Canada’s Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould, who will be on hand for the announcement in Ottawa on Thursday, said Facebook and other digital media platforms must be transparent and give citizens what they need to make informed decisions at the ballot box.


Of course. 

Wait, I can find it, know its here someplace...GOT IT!!!

"Because it's 2015!"

Shoulda knowed Juthdin would have his manicured, trust-fund baby hands in this mess somewhere...


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Care to explain what you mean by that, FeXL?
> 
> This should be interesting.


This about covers the race card thing. It did happen.

Bill Smith accuses Nenshi of playing the race card in a bid to stir up support |


----------



## SINC

Liberal crooks at work because it's 2015!



> Morneau using ethics loophole to maintain ownership of shares in family business
> 
> OTTAWA -- Finance Minister Bill Morneau continues to own shares in his family’s business Morneau Shepell through a corporate structure that keeps him from having to divest or put his shares in a blind trust, CTV News has learned.
> 
> Morneau has been able to do so by using a loophole in the ethics law that Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson says she flagged long ago.


EXCLUSIVE: Morneau using ethics loophole to maintain ownership of shares in family business | CTV News


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Liberal crooks at work because it's 2015!
> 
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Morneau using ethics loophole to maintain ownership of shares in family business | CTV News


A slight bias here as the recommendation to change the law was in 2013......the Liberals were not in power then so it could be construed as a lapse by the Conservatives. That said, my old boss used to tell me that those who make the rules seldom change them to their disadvantage. One wonders how long Morneau will last as he has embraced the PM......but so has the Defense Minister and he’s still there.


----------



## FeXL

So, regular readers here wil know that I will not, under _any_ circumstances, knowingly click on a link to MotherCorpse, read their twaddle, tune in to their TV stations, listen to their radio stations, nothing. Period. I find it offensive that my tax dollars are squandered away on this Charlie Foxtrot.

That said, I find this new review of their nightly news report very revealing.

What Was Wrong With CBC’s ‘The National’ Last Night (October 17, 2017)



> Here’s the first installment of “What Was Wrong With CBC’s The National Last Night”. In these blurbs I will summarize the CBC’s flagship news program from the previous night, highlighting what was glossed over or completely ignored by the public broadcaster in the last day’s news cycle. I will also question, where applicable, stories given undue prominence. Of course, one person can’t possibly make news judgments on all of the news stories bombarding us endlessly on cyberspace 24/7, but I’ll do my humble best to point out the most glaring omissions and overtly biased coverage. I’ll also include hyperlinks to stories, where needed, to show when crucial information has been left out of The National‘s coverage. I realize it is incredibly difficult to put together an hour-long news show each night, but CBC doesn’t get paid the big bucks for nothing (the public broadcaster gets well over a billion dollars a year of taxpayers’ money), so it should be held to a very high standard. I also won’t scrutinize every segment, instead primarily focusing my attention on The National‘s Canadian stories with a political element, as well as coverage of the U.S. It’s also hard for broadcast journalism, which uses images and short segments to tell stories, to get into the meat of a story. However, every story has crucial information that should be included in a broadcast report, and I, and I’m sure many readers, have noticed The National can be incredibly biased in how it frames news stories. So it’s worth doing this exercise to reveal what those CBC biases are. My past criticism of CBC has always had great engagement, and who knows, maybe there’s an off chance, and this is likely delusional, but, if enough of you read and share this, maybe we can keep the CBC’s The National‘s feet to the fire and affect the coverage for the better. Maybe we could even help them recover their abysmal ratings, behind both Global and CTV, with some constructive criticism.
> 
> Now, without further ado, here’s the inaugural deconstruction of CBC’s The National.


I've bookmarked the link for regular reading.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, after the outcry about The Hairdo's tax reforms, he's failing miserably with some damage control.

Trudeau's damage control is both bizarre and insulting



> The news conference Monday at a pizzeria in Stouffville, Ont, at which Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Finance Minister Bill Morneau announced a reduction in the federal small business tax rate, was both bizarre and insulting.
> 
> First the insulting part.
> 
> The announcement – that over the next 14 months the Liberal government will lower the small business tax rate in stages from 10.5 per cent to nine per cent – was clearly a response to the outrage the government has faced during the past three months over its proposed increases in taxes on entrepreneurs’ and professionals’ incomes.
> 
> Clearly.


----------



## FeXL

So, let's talk s'more about that bastion of provincial Liberal politics, Ontariowe...

Wynne Liberals broke every rule in the book 



> Normally, Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk’s complete evisceration of how Premier Kathleen Wynne plans to pay for her “Fair Hydro Plan” would be an election game changer.
> 
> That is, the final nail in the coffin of the Wynne government’s financial credibility, leading to its defeat at the polls in June.
> 
> Lysyk’s findings, released Tuesday, are devastating for the Liberals.


Liberals costing us extra $4 billion in interest costs



> The Kathleen Wynne’s Liberal government is flouting accounting rules and taking on an unnecessary $4 billion in extra borrowing costs — to be applied to future electricity bills — to keep the true cost of its Fair Hydro Plan buried, Ontario Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk says.


75,000 manufacturing jobs lost — that’s the price of Ontario’s electricity disaster



> In the 1990s and into the 2000s, Ontario was a low-electricity-cost jurisdiction. This was a competitive advantage for the province, helping attract business and foster economic growth. Of course, in recent years, due largely to the Green Energy Act and its inefficiencies, Ontario electricity prices have soared, hurting industrial competitiveness, especially in the manufacturing sector where electricity is a major cost.
> 
> The results have been devastating.
> 
> Between 2005 and 2015, Ontario’s manufacturing output fell by 18 per cent and manufacturing employment fell by 28 per cent.


Christie Blatchford: McGuinty's statement on gas plants was untrue, key witness tells trial



> In the exquisitely even-handed manner that is his trademark and in his usual careful language, Ontario’s former top public servant Tuesday called former Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty a big fat liar.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

And, while we're busy beating up the left the discussion just wouldn't be complete sans a couple article about PM Sockboy & his cohorts.

When the Liberals do it, it's not against the law.



> EXCLUSIVE: FinMin gets dividends of nearly $150K/month from firm that wlll benefit from law with his name on it.


Trudeau does right thing but for wrong reason



> Even when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau does the right thing, he has to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing it.
> 
> Take his hasty resurrection Monday of his previously broken election promise to cut the small business tax rate from 11% to 9% by 2019.
> 
> The fact Trudeau now intends, albeit belatedly, to keep this promise that he made to voters in 2015 is a good thing.
> 
> What’s alarming is that Trudeau didn’t reverse course because it was the right thing to do.
> 
> He did it because he and Finance Minister Bill Morneau botched their initial presentation of their small business corporate tax reform plan so badly, the Liberals are worried it’s eating into their popularity, as suggested by several recent polls.


Trudeau's vanity budget



> Leave it to the Trudeau Liberals to spend taxpayers’ money in the weirdest of places, especially if it adds to their hipster image.
> 
> Like budget books, for example.
> 
> Normally these ponderous texts, most now gathering dust on reporters’ and accountants’ shelves, have covers as plain as plain can be because they are what they are.
> 
> They are just budget books, filled with boring paragraphs, numbers, graphs, financial projections and political promises that are largely broken before the next full moon.
> 
> The Harperites, for example, spent all of $600 for their plain blue budget covers, using inexpensive stock photographs that can be purchased for a dime a dozen.
> 
> But not the Liberals.
> 
> Their last budget cover cost taxpayers $212,234.


And, finally.

A Tale of Two Leaders: Trudeau versus Trump



> Trudeau tiptoes, embraces, and snuggles. He declares the Canadian house open to all those refugees and lost souls spurned by big, bad America. Hot chocolates on the stove, and wait till ragged Somalians and Syrians get a taste of Justin’s yummy cookies.


Good read.

Those suddenly disaffected by Trudeau can't say they weren't warned



> When a liberal politician loses The Economist, that’s when they’ve got to start worrying.
> 
> “Justin Trudeau’s flying unicorn hits a storm,” reads a headline out of the establishment’s favourite magazine, one that has never before presented the PM so poorly. The accompanying cartoon shows him on a horse, dressed as royalty-turned-buffoon, sadly trudging through the rain. Yikes.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

It'S been getting echoey in here too lately. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Well, it's unfortunate that you don't have anything salient to add to the conversation, Freddie.

Too busy trying to decide if you're going to leave the sinking ship, too?



Freddie_Biff said:


> It'S been getting echoey in here too lately.


----------



## FeXL

What Was Wrong With CBC’s ‘The National’ Last Night (October 18, 2017)



> Well the first installment was a bit of a hit with readers–nearly a thousand of you visited Raving Canuck in its first 24 hours. I guess I’m committed to suffering through 45 minutes of spin and irrelevant stories each night for the foreseeable future. We’ll see how long I can take it. Meanwhile, the least you can do to repay me for my selfless suffering and wasted time is to share the damn critiques on Twitter and Facebook. We’re trying to make a movement here, people.


You go, Graeme.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Where would the Liberals be without that ol' race card...

Jagmeet Singh plays the race card 



> Thanks to the CBC’s Terry Milewski, we now know federal NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh doesn’t think it’s his job to denounce Canadian Sikhs who glorify suspected Air India bomber, and fellow Sikh, Talwinder Singh Parmar.
> 
> Why we know this -- with Singh absurdly accusing Milewski of racism for asking him the question -- is a case study in Canadian political correctness run amok.


----------



## SINC

Yup.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Yup.




Yup, those teeny tiny balls. Funny, but I thought you didn't like memes.


----------



## Rps

I see our illustrious leader had what could only be called veiled enthusiasm for Quebec’s new law..... I always thought the best definition of a hypocrite was someone who conveniently forgets their faults to point out yours.......or in short politics.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I see our illustrious leader had what could only be called veiled enthusiasm for Quebec’s new law..... I always thought the best definition of a hypocrite was someone who conveniently forgets their faults to point out yours.......or in short politics.


<snort> "Veiled enthusiasm". Like that...

Not only The Hairdo but Ontariowe politicians, as well.

Ontario politicians condemn Quebec's Bill 62



> Ontario provincial politicians stood united Thursday in their condemnation of Quebec’s Bill 62 which requires people to bare their faces when providing or accessing public services.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup, those teeny tiny balls. Funny, but I thought you didn't like memes.


That's not a meme. It's a comic.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> That's not a meme. It's a comic.




?? 

Perhaps you don't understand what meme means.


----------



## Macfury

If you feel that recognition of JT's ball-lessness is a widely shared cultural phenomenon, then it's a meme.



Freddie_Biff said:


> ??
> 
> Perhaps you don't understand what meme means.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> If you feel that recognition of JT's ball-lessness is a widely shared cultural phenomenon, then it's a meme.



Uh......no. That's not what a meme is. A cartoon is hand drawn. This is not. A meme often takes the form of a photo with captions, which this is. It is then distributed, though your mileage may vary in terms of how widely shared it gets.


----------



## Macfury

That was a photo cartoon. _Mad Magazine_ has been doing them since the 1950s. It's the captioning that transforms the photo. 

It becomes a meme when it is widely shared as a cultural phenomenon.


----------



## Rps




----------



## Macfury

Now THAT's a meme!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Now THAT's a meme!




Indeed! So then the question is, how wide does the distribution need to be before it qualifies as a meme?


----------



## FeXL

42.



freddie_biff said:


> indeed! So then the question is, how wide does the distribution need to be before it qualifies as a meme?


----------



## FeXL

What a remarkable coincidence...

AKA when the Liberals do it, it's not illegal.

Morneau's firm doing work for the feds



> New details uncovered by the Toronto Sun show that Morneau Shepell — the firm founded by the father of Finance Minister Bill Morneau — has a contract with the Bank of Canada worth over $8 million.
> 
> A spokesman for the Bank of Canada confirmed this relationship in an email exchange with the Sun. “The Bank of Canada has had a pension and benefits service contract with Morneau Shepell since November 1, 2012,” said Louise Egan. “The contract covers administration services for the Bank’s Pension Plan and benefits program.”
> 
> When asked if any changes had been made to this contract since Morneau became Finance Minister, Bank of Canada confirmed that there had.
> 
> “The original contract granted a right to the Bank to extend the contract for four years,” said Egan. “The Bank opted to exercise this option on Feb. 27, 2017.”


Morneau Shepell is up 25% since Morneau became Finance Minister. 

Nope. Nosiree. No conflict of interest here. Not when the Liberals are involved.

Hey, Piggy, where's your criticism for the trough feeders now? Soooouuuuuiiiieeee!!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> 42.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Since when is ignorance of the law a defence?

Ottawa man not guilty of sexual assault because he thought he could have sex with wife anytime

When you are a Muslim immigrant in Canada...


----------



## FeXL

FeXL said:


> Since when is ignorance of the law a defence?


On the other side of this coin, despite the fact that Merkel's refugee policy is seriously screwed up, at least some German judges get it.

Bonn rapist gets 11-year prison sentence after attack in Siegaue nature area



> A court in western Germany has sentenced a man to 11 and a half years in jail for raping a student who was camping in a wilderness area with her boyfriend. The judge said the young couple had “feared for their lives.”


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, The Dope still doesn't have a workable roadside test or any idea how much pot is too much to drive but come hell or high water in a little over 8 months marijuana is going to be legalized in Canuckistan. Here's an article from SINC's SAP, where a _very_ salient question is asked:

Traffic fatalities linked to marijuana are up sharply in Colorado. Is legalization to blame?



> “*I never understood how we’d pass a law without first understanding the impact better*,” said Barbara Deckert, whose fiancée, Ron Edwards, was killed in 2015 in a collision with a driver who tested positive for marijuana use below the legal limit and charged only with careless driving. “How do we let that happen without having our ducks in a row? And people are dying.”


M'bold.

Just not ready...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> So, The Dope still doesn't have a workable roadside test or any idea how much pot is too much to drive but come hell or high water in a little over 8 months marijuana is going to be legalized in Canuckistan. Here's an article from SINC's SAP, where a _very_ salient question is asked:
> 
> Traffic fatalities linked to marijuana are up sharply in Colorado. Is legalization to blame?
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Just not ready...


I had just finished reading that or a similar article. Couple of flaws there. Alcohol related deaths are higher and also increased. Marijuana links somewhat tentative, as tests do not establish if driver was actually impaired at the time of the crash, only that he had used within the past week or so. Causes of increase in total fatalities harder to pin, as cell phone use while driving was not mentioned, even though it could easily be another major contributor.

I am still not a fan of recreational MJ, but legalizing medicinal Cannabis is long overdue.


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> I am still not a fan of recreational MJ, but legalizing medicinal Cannabis is long overdue.


I think this is the crux of the issue. To my mind the government has not established what medical MJ should look like, or if it is even real. I have read many studies which state that there is no medicinal benefits. That said, there are SOME individuals whose medical condition responds well to it. To me medical MJ should be either in tab form, or liquid or film. What I see happening is people will vape at work and say they are taking their medicine and the companies will be powerless to stop them. I actually see this daily where I live. As you are aware they can make synthetic MJ, if it was the medical boon people say it is don’t you think the drug companies would flood the market with it? What really bugs me is the Feds saying it will be legal then dumping off to the provinces to fix the on coming mess....and there will be a mess.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> What I see happening is people will vape at work and say they are taking their medicine and the companies will be powerless to stop them. I actually see this daily where I live.


WTF? Do you mind telling us the kind of work environment where this happens? And if they're hiring...


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Couple of flaws there.


No argument. Unfortunately the article doesn't go anywhere near deep enough in it's analysis. Realistically, that's probably a project more suited to a funded study by an _impartial_ post-secondary researcher.

I've talked in the past about working at this one production facility where cargo & livestock trailers were built, among other things. Couple of the younger workers there (late teens/early 20's) would come to work stoned most mornings, then sneak out the back door at coffee time to top up. Realistically, if they were just driving a desk all day the most they could be accused of is bad judgement. However, they worked in the fabricating shop using the big industrial shears, brakes, overhead cranes, etc. to bring in raw materials, cut & shape into parts & move parts to the appropriate stations. Stick your fingers or hand into a shear, gone. Brake, same thing. Don't fix the grabber on the crane correctly, a ton or more of steel hits the floor & hopefully you had actually asked the welders to get the hell out of the way prior to the move.

We had to fire them.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> I think this is the crux of the issue. To my mind the government has not established what medical MJ should look like, or if it is even real. I have read many studies which state that there is no medicinal benefits. That said, there are SOME individuals whose medical condition responds well to it. To me medical MJ should be either in tab form, or liquid or film. What I see happening is people will vape at work and say they are taking their medicine and the companies will be powerless to stop them. I actually see this daily where I live. As you are aware they can make synthetic MJ, if it was the medical boon people say it is don’t you think the drug companies would flood the market with it? What really bugs me is the Feds saying it will be legal then dumping off to the provinces to fix the on coming mess....and there will be a mess.


Medical Cannabis needs to be ingestible. Everything I have read indicates that smoking it has little or no benefit. 

We know areas where it is proven to work. Almost always better at relieving chronic pain than opioids, without the addictive side effects. Better at suppressing cancer treatment side effects than Big Pharma. It is the only (possible) way short of surgery to reverse BPH, other treatments simply relieve symptoms for awhile, with surgery always looming around the bend. Anecdotally effective with some stage IV cancers, including prostate, breast and pancreatic. 

FWIW I know two people who died of pancreatic cancer and three who died from prostate cancer. Why the hell should they not have had the chance to try something that is not prohibitively expensive and has at least as good of a track record as the treatments that failed them? 

On a more positive personal note I know one individual who had suffered a traumatic brain injury and suffered at least one and often several seizures a day. This man could not allow himself to be without either his wife or another caregiver nearby. It was just too dangerous. He had surgeries and every possible drug cocktail thrown at him. Lots of side effects and little or no lasting benefit. Forty minutes after Medical Cannabis was legalized in Colorado his doctor phoned him with a prescription. He is now completely off all other drugs. He now measures seizures in months since the previous one and is even allowed to drive by himself. Again why the hell should he be denied a life, simply because no-one has bothered to test how effective Cannabis is for treating traumatic brain injuries?

BTW what was not mentioned in the Colorado article was the dramatic drop in Opioid prescriptions and leveling off of Opioid deaths since Cannabis was legalized.


----------



## Rps

EMacMan, there is some research on the effects of MJ on PTSD patients which is favourable. My comment isn’t that it doesn’t exist, it is that for some it works....and really when it comes to pain relief you do what works for you. As for those who have terminal illness, I mean really why not give them someth8ng that might ease their pain. These are the dramatic cases.......it will be the not so dramatic that will cause issues.


----------



## Macfury

Companies such as this Canadian pharma are isolating each of the components of marijuana, and determining which one has the medical effect--without the THC. 

https://www.inmedpharma.com/


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> EMacMan, there is some research on the effects of MJ on PTSD patients which is favourable. My comment isn’t that it doesn’t exist, it is that for some it works....and really when it comes to pain relief you do what works for you. As for those who have terminal illness, I mean really why not give them someth8ng that might ease their pain. These are the dramatic cases.......it will be the not so dramatic that will cause issues.


True that was why I mentioned BPH. There is at least one Big Pharma product that is usually reasonably effective at treating the symptoms, with very minimal side effects. However it does nothing to stop the continuing enlargement of the prostate. The course of this is well established. Once it is diagnosed and deemed serious enough to treat, do the drug for 5 maybe 10 years then it's time for the roto-rooter. 

OTOH Those who have tried medicinal cannabis have reported similar relief of symptoms and in some cases later prostate exams have shown the enlargement has actually been reduced so why not make it available? Since the progression is established to a very high (Pun Intended) degree of certainty, simply following up on an annual or semi-annual basis would be an effective study, without the need for expensive controlled double blinds.


----------



## Rps

I agree, but this is where we need to look at the THC levels on this.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Companies such as this Canadian pharma are isolating each of the components of marijuana, and determining which one has the medical effect--without the THC.
> 
> https://www.inmedpharma.com/


Yup! And this, I th8nk, is important going forward.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Companies such as this Canadian pharma are isolating each of the components of marijuana, and determining which one has the medical effect--without the THC.
> 
> https://www.inmedpharma.com/





Rps said:


> I agree, but this is where we need to look at the THC levels on this.


This seems to vary. Those using it to relieve chronic pain seem to need a good THC component, where as for many other uses the THC levels can be reduced. The thing is better to get it out there and legalized to make it easier to do the studies. 

People who can use it effectively now should not be denied its use while studies take 10 years to percolate. The difference between cannabis and most other drugs, is that even if Cannabis proves ineffective in certain circumstances, it is extremely unlikely to cause real harm. It can also be safely discontinued without adverse effects, those times it proves ineffective.


----------



## Rps

At issue with this are the studies which indicate that users under 25 can have alterations to their brain chemistry. Our governments here seems to treat the potential legalisation the same as alcohol.....in Ontario 19 ......there seems to be a gap here in my view.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> At issue with this are the studies which indicate that users under 25 can have alterations to their brain chemistry. Our governments here seems to treat the potential legalisation the same as alcohol.....in Ontario 19 ......there seems to be a gap here in my view.


Agreed. I still think the way to proceed is to legalize medically. I favor a wide range definition under medical use as long as competent follow-up is part of the prescription.

Recreational use needs a reliable impairment test/definition prior to enacting legislation.

FEXL made a good point about on job-site use as well. OTOH a couple of beers to wash down lunch can be every bit as dangerous as a Cannabis break.


----------



## Rps

emacman said:


> agreed. I still think the way to proceed is to legalize medically. I favor a wide range definition under medical use as long as competent follow-up is part of the prescription.
> 
> Recreational use needs a reliable impairment test/definition prior to enacting legislation.


+3


----------



## Macfury

The value proposition of the company is that there are other components in marijuana that can work on glaucoma as effectively as THC. The promise isn't that they can duplicate all of the effects of marijuana--only that some effects can be duplicated using isolated components, without the THC.



eMacMan said:


> This seems to vary. Those using it to relieve chronic pain seem to need a good THC component, where as for many other uses the THC levels can be reduced. The thing is better to get it out there and legalized to make it easier to do the studies.
> 
> People who can use it effectively now should not be denied its use while studies take 10 years to percolate. The difference between cannabis and most other drugs, is that even if Cannabis proves ineffective in certain circumstances, it is extremely unlikely to cause real harm. It can also be safely discontinued without adverse effects, those times it proves ineffective.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

PM opposed deficits before he was for them



> While Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said budgets balance themselves, a new report from the Fraser Institute begs to disagree.
> 
> It concludes he’s growing our per person federal debt at a faster rate -- 5% over four years -- than any other prime minister going back to Confederation who didn’t face a world war or economic recession.
> 
> *Think about that. No PM in the 150-year history of our country is accumulating per person federal debt at a faster pace than Trudeau, in relatively stable economic times.*


M'bold.

Hey, Piggy, where's your defence for the pig at the trough? Soooouuuueeeeiiii!!!


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> PM opposed deficits before he was for them
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Hey, Piggy, where's your defence for the pig at the trough? Soooouuuueeeeiiii!!!


FeXL, maybe he will have a tearful apology in the H of C, I mean he has apologised for everything else.


----------



## FeXL

Just in case there's any question, I support Kaybeck's decision entirely.

Two Quebec Muslim women accuse Kathleen Wynne of burka betrayal 



> How could a piece of cloth used as a facemask — declared not to be Islamic and unnecessary by no less a figure than the head of the Al-Azhar University in Egypt — become the rallying cry of white feminists, gay activists, left-wing academics and even Premier Kathleen Wynne of Ontario?
> 
> I raised this question with two Muslim women from Quebec, one a Saudi refugee in Sherbrooke, and the other a Bangladesh-born academic in Montreal.
> 
> Ensaf Haider arrived in Quebec in 2013 escaping the Arab world and its tyranny hoping to find freedom in Canada. Her Saudi husband, Raif Badawi, is still serving a 10-year jail sentence and awaiting 1,000 lashes on charges of Islamophobia.
> 
> Reacting to Premier Wynne’s denunciation of the anti-Burka law of Quebec, Haider said:
> 
> “I am shocked that Ontario’s premier and women from Ontario’s NDP and (Progressive) Conservative Party attacked the new Quebec law banning face-covering, particularly the burka that was passed near unanimously by the Quebec National Assembly.”
> 
> Haider told me that on Wednesday when she heard the news of the passing of Quebec Bill 62, she was thrilled with joy. *“I felt all of Canada had finally recognized the tyranny that is the niqab and burka and would follow Quebec’s courage in standing up to oppression of women.”*


Yeah, my bold.

Trudeau on Quebec face-cover ban: not our business to tell women what to wear



> Justin Trudeau has said it is not the government’s business to tell a woman what or what not to wear after the Canadian province of Quebec passed a law – believed to be the first of its kind in North America – obliging women wearing the niqab or burqa to unveil when riding public transit or receiving government services.


Really. OK, let's test the theory. Let's have a bunch of nude women walk through downtown Ottawa & see if they get stopped or not. Let's have a woman ride a motorcycle across Canada without a helmet & we'll see how many provinces she gets tickets in. Let's have a school girl wear an actual Halloween costume to any one of the schools that have banned said costumes.

People get told _every single day_ and for various reasons, what they can & can't wear, Juthdin...

Related:

Trudeau’s massive double standard on niqab bans 



> Trudeau refused to say whether he believed the law violates the Charter of Rights, saying instead there will be “lot of reflections” on the law's constitutionality. He promised only to look at “how this will unfold, with full respect for the National Assembly that has the right to pass its own laws.”
> 
> Can anyone imagine Trudeau saying something similar if another province – say, Alberta – had passed this law?
> 
> But then again, his Liberals’ re-election plans hinge on their regaining their dominance in their former stronghold of la belle province.
> 
> So just as Trudeau refused to advocate for the Energy East pipeline because he didn’t want to upset his party’s Quebec electoral ambitions, he is now failing to defend Charter rights against this latest assault from Quebec.


----------



## FeXL

Liberals under fire for 'cooking' Ontario’s books



> Ontario’s Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk revealed this week that Kathleen Wynne’s government hid the cost of its “Fair Hydro Plan” from taxpayers.
> 
> The way they did it has raised concerns that other governments across the country could follow suit and bury deficits.
> 
> Although ratepayers will get a temporary, 25% break over four years on their hydro bills, the plan will cost “up to $4 billion more than necessary” in interest, Lysyk said.
> 
> The Liberals also “improperly” moved $26 billion in hydro debt off their books, borrowing the money through Ontario Power Generation, and as a consequence hydro ratepayers will face increases for 30 years.
> 
> Lysyk argued that was like claiming your credit card debt is an asset.
> 
> Tory leader Patrick Brown was more blunt, accusing the government of “cooking the books” to “look good in an election year”


While I won't argue Brown's point, precisely how does _this_ endear the electorate:

Social conservative issues ‘off limits, period’ at Ontario PC convention: Patrick Brown



> The leader of Ontario’s Progressive Conservatives, a largely unknown politician who polls suggest could be the province’s next premier, says social conservative issues will be off limits at his party’s much anticipated policy convention.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Lemme guess...spend, spend, spend!!!

At mid-mandate and with extra cash, Liberals to chart fiscal course toward 2019



> Without new federal spending, Scotiabank is predicting shortfalls of $17 billion in 2017-18 and $16 billion in 2018-19.
> 
> By comparison, Morneau’s budget last March forecasted deficits of $25.5-billion for 2017-18 and $24.4 billion for 2018-19.


Get ready. The Hairdo will spin this as a feature, not a bug.

More:



> Last year’s update included major new plans like the government’s $35-billion infrastructure bank, *which is designed to use public money as a way to lure private capital for new, large-scale projects such as transit systems.*


Or, say, pipelines!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So be it. "Willie Porno" it is...

Well SOMEONE has a nickname for life

I really don't want to know what he means by "Jism"...

:lmao::clap::lmao::clap::lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## SINC

Good grief, Trudeau does it again.

Feds pay $31.3M settlement to 3 men unjustly imprisoned in Syria | CTV News


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Good grief, Trudeau does it again.
> 
> Feds pay $31.3M settlement to 3 men unjustly imprisoned in Syria | CTV News


More accurately, Harper did it again. It was his government's actions that led to the imprisonment of Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad El Maati and Muayyed Nureddin, none of whom were connected to terrorism. Each filed $100 million lawsuits against the Canadian government for violations of their rights.

Is it because their surnames are not Smith, Jones and Harrison that you are upset at the settlements? Would you really rather these go to court where the potential for damages is considerably larger than the $10-million each received?


----------



## dtaylor

SINC said:


> Good grief, Trudeau does it again.
> 
> Feds pay $31.3M settlement to 3 men unjustly imprisoned in Syria | CTV News


Sync, the Canadian government was found to be complicit in the torture of its own citizens abroad. I'm curious what you feel would be appropriate amends?


----------



## SINC

Oh, I dunno, how about these remarks. They are more than enough in terms of threats to our country to make me suspicious and the names not being Smith or Jones makes it that much worse.



> The RCMP suspected that *El Maati was planning an attack on nuclear facilities in Canada based on a map found in his truck*. He never made it to his wedding.
> 
> Ottawa-based electronics engineer Almalki was held for 22 months in Syria starting in 2002 after the *RCMP and CSIS sent out an international alert starting that he’d been on their watch list.*
> 
> During his torture, Almalki falsely *confessed to being an associate of al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden*. He later retracted the confession and said it was made under the extreme conditions.
> 
> Nureddin, the principal of an Islamic school in Toronto, was crossing the border from Iraq, where he had been visiting family, in December 2003 when he was detained. *He was the subject of a bulletin sent from Canada to the CIA.*
> 
> Nureddin’s detention lasted 34 days.





CubaMark said:


> Is it because their surnames are not Smith, Jones and Harrison that you are upset at the settlements? Would you really rather these go to court where the potential for damages is considerably larger than the $10-million each received?


Yep I sure would, if they left that kind of impression with authorities so be it. As for amends, none would be good. They put themselves in harm's way, not taxpayers. No way should we for their decisions to do that.


----------



## Rps

I think we have a couple of issues here. First, we are in a non traditional war whether we believe we are at war or not. We are not so much fighting a country as an ideology. In the past we held cautions and restrictions against the citizens of the countries we were fighting....not much immigration of Germans or Japanese during the World Wars. Today, we are suspicious of those who immigrate from, and no other words to describe it, hostile countries....which leads us to the second issue....CSIS and the RCMP are truly restricted by our government from doing their job. Much of this is the misguided belief that “ they don’t know where we live”, “ we’re peacekeepers”, “bringing over ALL who want to come won’t cause issues”, and the biggest misguided belief is that these cultures won’t clash here......after all we ARE multicultural. One big terrorist act here and the innocent will be painted with a pretty broad brush.......


----------



## Macfury

As Canada didn't torture the citizens, I don't see any reason to compensate. They wouldn't have been tortured if they had remained in countries that don;t condone torture and beatings. As rps says, CSIS and the RCMP will now worry about large cash settlements whenever they want to share reasonable concerns about people with other law enforcement authorities.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> As Canada didn't torture the citizens, I don't see any reason to compensate. They wouldn't have been tortured if they had remained in countries that don;t condone torture and beatings. As rps says, CSIS and the RCMP will now worry about large cash settlements whenever they want to share reasonable concerns about people with other law enforcement authorities.



Nothing in the article suggests any of their concerns were reasonable and the settlements would indicate a complete inability to prove any of those concerns valid. I carry maps in my car. I am sure CSIS can hack your GPS and find some cause for concern, if not they could probably alter it to create one. How long would you deny knowing Bin Laden if you were being continually tortured with no sign of relief? How many people are on the watch list simply for suggesting that some politician or another is corrupt?

The fact that they farmed out brutality does not make them less culpable. The best way to avoid becoming a Police State is if the police fear repercussions when they get too far out of line. At this point in time that is not the case.


----------



## Macfury

Nothing in the article suggests their concerns were unreasonable. If they want to sue for libel, perhaps. They should sue the Syrian government for everything else.



eMacMan said:


> Nothing in the article suggests any of their concerns were reasonable and the settlements would indicate a complete inability to prove any of those concerns vald. I carry maps in my car. How long would you deny knowing Bin Laden if you were being continually tortured with no sign of relief? How many people are on the watch list simply for suggesting that some politician or another is corrupt?
> 
> The fact that they farmed out brutality does not make them less culpable. The best way to avoid becoming a Police State is if the police fear repercussions when they get too far out of line. At this point in time that is not the case.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> If they want to sue for libel, perhaps. They should sue the Syrian government for everything else.


Which might be a valid point were the west not trying to wipe Syria off the map.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> As Canada didn't torture the citizens, I don't see any reason to compensate.


_Documents obtained by CBC News showed Canadian law enforcement officials not only knew three Canadians were being tortured in Syrian jails, but also co-operated with Syrian officials in their interrogations._​


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Jimbo was pretty excited about Canada posting an estimated 3% GDP growth this year under Trudeau. Problem is, world GDP rose an estimated 3.7%.
> 
> Guess the government hogs at the trough were sucking the economy dry with overspending. SOOUIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEE!


*And yet...*

*Canada tops G7 in latest IMF estimate for 2017 economic growth, No. 2 in 2018*

The International Monetary Fund has raised its estimate for Canada’s economic growth rate for this year and 2018, putting it at or near the top of the heap among advanced economies.

The Washington-based IMF is now estimating Canada’s gross domestic product for 2017 will be 3.0 per cent _ half a percentage point higher than its July estimate.

*That would put Canada ahead of all the other Group of Seven countries, with the United States coming second at 2.2 per cent growth from last year.*

The IMF’s world economic outlook is similar to estimates issued last month by the Paris-based OECD, which also said Canada would top the G7 countries this year.

The International Monetary Fund says Canada’s pickup in growth reflects reduced drag from lower oil and gas prices with assistance from government spending and central bank policies.

It expects next year’s Canadian year-over-year growth rate will slow to 2.1 per cent in 2018, but that’s still 0.2 per cent above the IMF’s July update and second-highest among the G7 behind the United States at 2.3 per cent.
(Canadian Business)​
_*So, given the above, shall we anticipate you will be posting a sufficiently scathing commentary on Trump's failure to stimulate the U.S. economy?*_

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

The entire G7 is underpacing the rest of the world. No member country should have a reason to be happy.



CubaMark said:


> *And yet...*
> 
> *Canada tops G7 in latest IMF estimate for 2017 economic growth, No. 2 in 2018*
> 
> The International Monetary Fund has raised its estimate for Canada’s economic growth rate for this year and 2018, putting it at or near the top of the heap among advanced economies.
> 
> The Washington-based IMF is now estimating Canada’s gross domestic product for 2017 will be 3.0 per cent _ half a percentage point higher than its July estimate.
> 
> *That would put Canada ahead of all the other Group of Seven countries, with the United States coming second at 2.2 per cent growth from last year.*
> 
> The IMF’s world economic outlook is similar to estimates issued last month by the Paris-based OECD, which also said Canada would top the G7 countries this year.
> 
> The International Monetary Fund says Canada’s pickup in growth reflects reduced drag from lower oil and gas prices with assistance from government spending and central bank policies.
> 
> It expects next year’s Canadian year-over-year growth rate will slow to 2.1 per cent in 2018, but that’s still 0.2 per cent above the IMF’s July update and second-highest among the G7 behind the United States at 2.3 per cent.
> (Canadian Business)​
> _*So, given the above, shall we anticipate you will be posting a sufficiently scathing commentary on Trump's failure to stimulate the U.S. economy?*_
> 
> :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

How, exactly, did they cooperate?



CubaMark said:


> _Documents obtained by CBC News showed Canadian law enforcement officials not only knew three Canadians were being tortured in Syrian jails, but also co-operated with Syrian officials in their interrogations._​


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> How, exactly, did they cooperate?


Why do I have to do everything for you guys?

Follow the link. See "Related Stories". Read.

:yawn:


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Why do I have to do everything for you guys?
> 
> Follow the link. See "Related Stories". Read.
> 
> :yawn:


Did just that and guess what I found:

"I found no evidence that any of these officials were seeking to do anything other than carry out conscientiously the duties and responsibilities of the institutions of which they were a part," former Supreme Court of Canada justice Frank Iacobucci concluded in his report, made public Tuesday, 22 months after the inquiry began.”

Seems fair to me. Not to mention they don’t deserve one dime.


----------



## Macfury

Yup. That's why CubaMark suddenly wanted us to do the research for him.



SINC said:


> Did just that and guess what I found:
> 
> "I found no evidence that any of these officials were seeking to do anything other than carry out conscientiously the duties and responsibilities of the institutions of which they were a part," former Supreme Court of Canada justice Frank Iacobucci concluded in his report, made public Tuesday, 22 months after the inquiry began.”
> 
> Seems fair to me. Not to mention they don’t deserve one dime.


----------



## CubaMark

*Jason Kenney elected 1st leader of Alberta's United Conservative Party*










Jason Kenney has been elected the first leader of Alberta's United Conservative Party.

Kenney, a former long-time Calgary Conservative MP and cabinet minister under former prime minister Stephen Harper, won on the first ballot over opponents Brian Jean and Doug Schweitzer, taking 61.1 per cent of the vote.

Jean came second with 31.5 per cent and Schweitzer came third with 7.3 per cent. 

The UCP, which was formed in July after members of the Progressive Conservative and Wildrose parties agreed to merge, is Alberta's Official Opposition, so the new leader could become the province's next premier after the 2019 election.

"Hope is on the horizon and common sense is coming back," Kenney said in a victory speech that slammed the governing NDP led by Premier Rachel Notley.

"If we work hard, stay humble and earn every vote, we will ensure that this deceptive, divisive, debt-quadrupling, tax-hiking, job-killing, accidental socialist government is one (term) and done."

Kenney extended an olive branch to his rivals Jean and Schweitzer by bringing them both on stage and praising them.

** * **​
Kenney, 49, does not have a seat in the Alberta legislature. He was briefly the leader of the Alberta Progressive Conservative party when he won the leadership in March until the merger vote in July. He won on a platform of merging with the Wildrose Party. 

Many Alberta conservatives believe the NDP won a majority in the 2015 provincial election because the right-wing vote was split between the Wildrose and PCs. 

** * **​
Deputy Premier Sarah Hoffman told reporters Kenney's successful leadership bid now makes the choice clear for Albertans. 

She said Kenney would make drastic cuts to health and education to balance the budget, while Notley would maintain those services. 

"Now it seems like there's a very contrast, a very clear choice between the values of Jason Kenney and the values of Rachel Notley," Hoffman said. 

As for Kenney's contention that the UCP would win government and wipe out the NDP in the next election, Hoffman suggested he was echoing past Progressive Conservative leaders.

"It certainly smacks of the same kind of entitled attitudes we heard just a few years ago right before the last election," she said, referring the floor crossing that saw the majority of the Wildrose caucus join the PCs in December 2014.

Six months later, the NDP defeated the PCs, ending their 44-year-long hold on government. 

(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

Whether it's Kenney or Jean who wipes Notley's ass out of office is only a footnote to the story.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

I'm happy for Kenney and the UCP. The NDP could not have asked for a better outcome. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

And what, specifically, will this outcome result in to benefit the NDP?



Freddie_Biff said:


> I'm happy for Kenney and the UCP. The NDP could not have asked for a better outcome.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> And what, specifically, will this outcome result in to benefit the NDP?


Early retirement?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

300,000 new immigrants a year is Canada’s ‘new normal’.



> Canada’s immigration minister says Canada will welcome at least as many immigrants next year as it is in 2017.The government’s plan for annual immigration levels, which was set at 300,000 for this year, is expected to be tabled in the House of Commons next week.


More:



> *He said the “vast majority” of immigrants coming in will be from the economic class because that’s where the greatest need is.*This will be followed closely by family class immigrants and then refugees.


M'bold.

Horse feathers & bull pucky. To wit:

Immigrants Are A Huge Net Cost To Canadians



> Serious scholars should dig deeper. Grubel did, and he found that included in the "economic class" are also the spouses and children of the principal economic applicants. He estimated, for example, that in 2005 only 39% of the immigrants classified under the "economic class" were principal applicants selected according to their language skills, level of education, and work experience. Moreover, _as a percentage of all the immigrants_ granted permanent residency in 2005, only 19.5% were directly selected on the basis of their skills and education. In other words, over 80 percent were _not_ economic immigrants.


Excellent read.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Early retirement?


I can already hear Notley's quavering voice on election day, nattering on about bowing to the will of the people. If she does, it will be the first time in four years.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

My tax $$ at work.

YOU get a Porsche! And YOU get a Porsche!

From the comments:



> Here's how "the narrative" goes ... "These are just the minimum perks that government needs to offer in order to RETAIN top flight people, who get paid much, more in the private sector".
> 
> ...
> 
> Oh come on they are entitled to their entitlements. This is what Liberal government in Canada is all about - the Porsches.
> 
> ...
> 
> How much orange juice can one buy with these vehicles?
> 
> ...
> 
> Hey, it's not like the people driving those government-owned luxury vehicles are flouting their own ill-gotten wealth like some owner of a small corporation who uses loopholes to avoid tax. They are driving them on behalf of all of us, as a public service.


<snort>

Hey, Piggy, can we have a great, big, fat "Soooouuuuiiieeee!!!" for all the Liberals at the trough?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I can already hear Notley's quavering voice on election day, nattering on about bowing to the will of the people. If she does, it will be the first time in four years.


Sinc might chirp in here with better figures but I thought I read the Alberta voters were 56 % against voting for the NDP and the Liberals had 13%....who knew Alberta had Liberals ( not meant as a whack, I always thought they were even below Greens there.)


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Sinc might chirp in here with better figures but I thought I read the Alberta voters were 56 % against voting for the NDP and the Liberals had 13%....who knew Alberta had Liberals ( not meant as a whack, I always thought they were even below Greens there.)


The last poll I saw was the one dating from the end of July I posted earlier in the thread.

The Liberals have always been a fringe party in Alberta, with support largely from the Edmonton area.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Speaking of polls...

Many people who voted for the Trudeau Liberals have buyer's remorse: poll



> It seems a large number of voters who cast their ballot for the Trudeau Liberals in the 2015 federal election are regretting their choice.
> 
> More than a thousand people took part in an online poll exclusive to Maclean’s last week.
> 
> Mario Canseco with Insights West says 24 per cent of people who say they voted Liberal in the last election now regret it. “You have essentially one out of four voters for the Liberal party having buyer’s remorse. *Most of them are in Quebec.*”


M'bold.

When you start losing your base...

Hey, Piggy, Juthdin musta done something to p!$$ off Kaybeck. Couldn't be that he & his cadre have their noses in the trough, could it?

Soooouuuuuiiiieeeeeeee!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

BONOKOSKI: Trudeau hiding behind a woman’s skirt



> For a man who claims to be an avowed feminist, Justin Trudeau sure likes to hide behind a certain woman’s skirt.
> 
> ...
> 
> What we have heard now is that a number of Trudeau’s cabinet ministers have taken advantage of the same loophole that Morneau used to maintain control of his wealth while deciding on the wealth of the country, and all are hiding behind the same skirt that Trudeau so loves to cite as their guidance counsellor — *the skirt of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson*.


M'bold.

Hey, Piggy, can we have a great, big, fat Sooooouuuuuuiiiiieeeeeee!!! for all the Liberal hogs at the trough?

Sou!!!


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> The last poll I saw was the one dating from the end of July I posted earlier in the thread.
> 
> The Liberals have always been a fringe party in Alberta, with support largely from the Edmonton area.


I always love when they breakdown the undecided vote. If a person chooses one party over the other aren’t they decided.......l


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> BONOKOSKI: Trudeau hiding behind a woman’s skirt
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Hey, Piggy, can we have a great, big, fat Sooooouuuuuuiiiiieeeeeee!!! for all the Liberal hogs at the trough?
> 
> Sou!!!


I think no matter what, the ultimate person responsible for ensuring an ethical parliament and cabinet is the PM.......if he or she doesn’t enforce the standard then we are lost.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> *Jason Kenney elected 1st leader of Alberta's United Conservative Party*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Kenney has been elected the first leader of Alberta's United Conservative Party.
> 
> Kenney, a former long-time Calgary Conservative MP and cabinet minister under former prime minister Stephen Harper, won on the first ballot over opponents Brian Jean and Doug Schweitzer, taking 61.1 per cent of the vote.
> 
> Jean came second with 31.5 per cent and Schweitzer came third with 7.3 per cent.
> 
> The UCP, which was formed in July after members of the Progressive Conservative and Wildrose parties agreed to merge, is Alberta's Official Opposition, so the new leader could become the province's next premier after the 2019 election.
> 
> "Hope is on the horizon and common sense is coming back," Kenney said in a victory speech that slammed the governing NDP led by Premier Rachel Notley.
> 
> "If we work hard, stay humble and earn every vote, we will ensure that this deceptive, divisive, debt-quadrupling, tax-hiking, job-killing, accidental socialist government is one (term) and done."
> 
> Kenney extended an olive branch to his rivals Jean and Schweitzer by bringing them both on stage and praising them.
> 
> ** * **​
> Kenney, 49, does not have a seat in the Alberta legislature. He was briefly the leader of the Alberta Progressive Conservative party when he won the leadership in March until the merger vote in July. He won on a platform of merging with the Wildrose Party.
> 
> Many Alberta conservatives believe the NDP won a majority in the 2015 provincial election because the right-wing vote was split between the Wildrose and PCs.
> 
> ** * **​
> Deputy Premier Sarah Hoffman told reporters Kenney's successful leadership bid now makes the choice clear for Albertans.
> 
> She said Kenney would make drastic cuts to health and education to balance the budget, while Notley would maintain those services.
> 
> "Now it seems like there's a very contrast, a very clear choice between the values of Jason Kenney and the values of Rachel Notley," Hoffman said.
> 
> As for Kenney's contention that the UCP would win government and wipe out the NDP in the next election, Hoffman suggested he was echoing past Progressive Conservative leaders.
> 
> "It certainly smacks of the same kind of entitled attitudes we heard just a few years ago right before the last election," she said, referring the floor crossing that saw the majority of the Wildrose caucus join the PCs in December 2014.
> 
> Six months later, the NDP defeated the PCs, ending their 44-year-long hold on government.
> 
> (CBC)​





Macfury said:


> Whether it's Kenney or Jean who wipes Notley's ass out of office is only a footnote to the story.





Freddie_Biff said:


> I'm happy for Kenney and the UCP. The NDP could not have asked for a better outcome.


All I can say is that Kenney, no matter what portfolio he had while in government, knew his stuff inside out. He didn't read from TP's and had the numbers and statistics on his finger tips at all times. He is completely comfortable speaking to people whether it be one on one or to a crowd of hundreds.

Certainly anyone can disagree with his policies, but there is no doubt he is a formidable candidate. I think he will shine in leaders debate as he has much more political experience/governing than all the other candidates put together and then some.


----------



## Rps

screature said:


> All I can say is that Kenney, no matter what portfolio he had while in government, knew his stuff inside out. He didn't read from TP's and had the numbers and statistics on his finger tips at all times. He is completely comfortable speaking to people whether it be one on one or to a crowd of hundreds.
> 
> Certainly anyone can disagree with his policies, but there is no doubt he is a formidable candidate. I think he will shine in leaders debate as he has much more political experience/governing than all the other candidates put together and then some.


Screature, I think that’s a pretty fair assessment of Kenney.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I think no matter what, the ultimate person responsible for ensuring an ethical parliament and cabinet is the PM.......if he or she doesn’t enforce the standard then we are lost.


We're lost!!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> All I can say is that Kenney, no matter what portfolio he had while in government, knew his stuff inside out. He didn't read from TP's and had the numbers and statistics on his finger tips at all times. He is completely comfortable speaking to people whether it be one on one or to a crowd of hundreds.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly anyone can disagree with his policies, but there is no doubt he is a formidable candidate. I think he will shine in leaders debate as he has much more political experience/governing than all the other candidates put together and then some.




He may be good at the things you describe, but I think you underestimate how unlikeable he is. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> He may be good at the things you describe, but I think you underestimate how unlikeable he is. We shall see.


Perhaps unlikable to alberta's pink fringe. But you underestimate how unlikable Notley is to the Alberta majority.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Perhaps unlikable to alberta's pink fringe. But you underestimate how unlikable Notley is to the Alberta majority.


Yup, in spades.


----------



## eMacMan

That New Years gift of a 50% Carbon tax jump won't help her chances either.

OTOH *IF* she ditched all the gouge fees, energy bills would drop dramatically and she just might pull it out of the fire.



Macfury said:


> Perhaps unlikable to alberta's pink fringe. But you underestimate how unlikable Notley is to the Alberta majority.





SINC said:


> Yup, in spades.


----------



## Macfury

That would be rather out of character for her!



eMacMan said:


> That New Years gift of a 50% Carbon tax jump won't help her chances either.
> 
> OTOH *IF* she ditched all the gouge fees, energy bills would drop dramatically and she just might pull it out of the fire.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> That New Years gift of a 50% Carbon tax jump won't help her chances either.


Fuel prices have gone up ~15¢/litre in the last week here. That's with her carbon tax of a nickel/litre. It'll be so much nicer come January... XX)


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> That would be rather out of character for her!


More like anathema...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Let's talk Sockboy s'more!

Trudeau Is The Most Dishonest Prime Minister In Canadian History



> So, Trudeau wants to eliminate the very idea that there is a unified “Canada” to defend, making it easier for those in power to take whatever they want. _Consider how the Trudeau government is already facing serious ethics problems by blurring the line between the public interest and personal profit._
> 
> *Embracing globalism instead of standing up for Canada is a level of dishonesty that far eclipses any usual political lie. It’s far deeper, and far more concerning. By seeking the praise of international institutions and global interests instead of looking out for Canadians, Trudeau is using this country to further his own globalist ambitions (UN Secretary General) while taking power and influence away from the Canadian people.*


Links' emphasis.

Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Rps

So our PM spent Hallowe’en as Clark Kent/Superman....... that’s certainly a “crypto-night”


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> So our PM spent Hallowe’en as Clark Kent/Superman....... that’s certainly a “crypto-night”


Man of Steal.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

A whole $200? Stunning. Hope he won't have to declare bankruptcy. Mebbe he can borrow it from Duffy...

Bill Morneau pays the price for French villa omission with $200 fine from ethics commissioner



> Still reeling from a conflict of interest controversy that has dominated the government’s agenda this fall, Finance Minister Bill Morneau got some more bad news on Halloween.
> 
> Notice of a $200 fine related to Morneau’s villa in France was posted Tuesday to the website of the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.


----------



## FeXL

The activists may as well give up. When the left starts eating its own like this, the Inuit will win.

Animal rights activists and Inuit clash over Canada's Indigenous food traditions



> A newly opened restaurant in Toronto sparked heated online debate recently by revealing that two dishes on its menu would contain seal meat. Kū-kŭm Kitchen, an Indigenous-owned and operated restaurant, was targeted by an online petition which gained more than 6,300 signatures. The petition called for the restaurant to remove seal from its menu, stating that seal hunting is “violent, horrific, traumatizing and unnecessary”.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> He may be good at the things you describe, but I think you underestimate how unlikeable he is. We shall see.


Well that may be the case but it depends on who you ask. So Albertan's will ultimately decide how "likable" he is, more importantly they should decide based on his competency and policies and general platform, rather than how "likeable" he is, but the public at large does tend to vote based on superficial things rather than substance. The reason is because the general voter has no idea of differing policies and what the outcome may be if those policies were put into place, so they often vote along the lines of friends and family and general Party allegiances. The vast majority of voters are ill informed or just plain biased one way or the other when it comes to election day IMO.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Well that may be the case but it depends on who you ask. So Albertan's will ultimately decide how "likable" he is, more importantly they should decide based on his competency and policies and general platform, rather than how "likeable" he is, but the public at large does tend to vote based on superficial things rather than substance. The reason is because the general voter has no idea of differing policies and what the outcome may be if those policies were put into place, so they often vote along the lines of friends and family and general Party allegiances. The vast majority of voters are ill informed or just plain biased one way or the other when it comes to election day IMO.


Yes. Even when I ask local people how Ontario can sustain a budget in which the cost of health care continues to outstrip inflation, I have never gotten an answer--other than irritation that I've brought up the subject.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

screature said:


> Well that may be the case but it depends on who you ask. So Albertan's will ultimately decide how "likable" he is, more importantly they should decide based on his competency and policies and general platform, rather than how "likeable" he is, but the public at large does tend to vote based on superficial things rather than substance. The reason is because the general voter has no idea of differing policies and what the outcome may be if those policies were put into place, so they often vote along the lines of friends and family and general Party allegiances. The vast majority of voters are ill informed or just plain biased one way or the other when it comes to election day IMO.




They may be ill informed or just plain biased, but they're the ones you need to impress come Election Day. That's why likeability, something you describe as trivial, is actually very important. The one who gets elected is the one people like.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Yes. Even when I ask local people how Ontario can sustain a budget in which the cost of health care continues to outstrip inflation, I have never gotten an answer--other than irritation that I've brought up the subject.


I think health care is very important to Ontarians just the same as it is for all Canadians regardless of the Province or Territory in which they live. So I do not think health care is the real problem for Ontario. 

I think the cost of electricity is of bigger concern. Kathleen Wynne gave a subsidy to current electricity payers that will be a burden on future payers for pure immediate political gain. The average Ontarian doesn't give a rat's ass about the future, all they care about is what they are paying NOW.

I think the cost of electricity and the policies surrounding it is more troublesome than the cost of heath care.

Wynne should get the boot ASAP.


----------



## screature

Freddie_Biff said:


> They may be ill informed or just plain biased, but they're the ones you need to impress come Election Day. That's why likeability, something you describe as trivial, is actually very important. The one who gets elected is the one people like.


I didn't describe it as trivial at all, that is your choice of words. I said superficial vs. substance and then went on to say basically it is a sad truth that superficial often wins over substance.


----------



## Macfury

The point I am making is that you can't simply have a health care system that eats up a greater share of general revenues each year. But the policy is unimportant to Ontarians.

Regarding electricity in Ontario, it's impossible to bring the costs down in any meaningful way for at least a decade. Too many decades of government incompetence have made the legacy cost of delivery too great. Green energy boondoggles have added to the grief. 



screature said:


> I think health care is very important to Ontarians just the same as it is for all Canadians regardless of the Province or Territory in which they live. So I do not think health care is the real problem for Ontario.
> 
> I think the cost of electricity is of bigger concern. Kathleen Wynne gave a subsidy to current electrify payers that will be a burden on future payers for pure immediate political gain. The average Ontarian doesn't give a rat's ass about the future, all they care about is what they are paying NOW.
> 
> I think the cost of electricity and the policies surrounding it is more troublesome than the cost of heath care.
> 
> Wynne should get the boot ASAP.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *The point I am making is that you can't simply have a health care system that eats up a greater share of general revenues each year*. But the policy is unimportant to Ontarians.
> 
> Regarding electricity in Ontario, it's impossible to bring the costs down in any meaningful way for at least a decade. Too many decades of government incompetence have made the legacy cost of delivery too great. Green energy boondoggles have added to the grief.


Why not? Where should deficit dollars go instead? I don't think the budget should be balanced on the back of health care. Surely and undeniably there are other dollars to be cut first elsewhere.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Why not? Where should deficit dollars go instead? I don't think the budget should be balanced on the back of health care. Surely and undeniably there are other dollars to be cut first elsewhere.


Sure, you can cut other things first. But if the cost of delivering government health care continues to grow at the current rate, then eventually, no deficit spending can contain it. Something has to give.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> Why not? Where should deficit dollars go instead? I don't think the budget should be balanced on the back of health care. Surely and undeniably there are other dollars to be cut first elsewhere.


Agreed!


----------



## CubaMark

29 October 2017: Today’s letters: Ottawa Citizen

*Canada’s doing just fine, thanks*

U.S. Ambassador Kelly Craft, in her first Canadian print interview, stated, “The golden rule is we want Canadians to be as successful as Americans.”

I doubt Canadians want to be “as successful as Americans.” In February, Scott Gilmore, writing in MacLean’s magazine, provided some statistics that show Canadians are already more successful than Americans. We live 2.5 years longer than Americans. Americans are six times more likely to be incarcerated. The World Economic Forum ranks Canadians as the sixth happiest people in the world. Americans are 13th.

Fifty-nine per cent of Canadians have college degrees versus 46 per cent in the U.S. Home ownership rates are five per cent higher in Canada than in the U.S. Canadians are twice as likely as Americans to move from the poorest quintile of the population to the wealthiest. And perhaps most telling for the citizens of the “Land of the Free,” the Cato Institute’s Human Freedom Index considers Canadians to be the sixth freest people in the world. Americans are way behind, in 23rd place.

So Ambassador Craft, I suggest to you revisit your Golden Rule. Instead, during your appointment as Ambassador to Canada, you should try to help your citizens be as successful as Canadians. As helpful Canadians, we would be happy to show you how.

_Robert Macdonald, Ottawa_​
(Ottawa Citizen)​


----------



## Macfury

I've argued for a long time that Canada and the US have switched places on the freedom scale. That process accelerated during the Obama administration.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Sure, you can cut other things first. But if the cost of delivering government health care continues to grow at the current rate, then eventually, no deficit spending can contain it. Something has to give.


Definitely, but health care should be last. What the government needs to do is a full and thorough audit of where hospital and clinics, other health providers dollars go. Undoubtedly there is some waste there. But first or simultaneously do the same thing with all other public services. Trim the fat there first and once that has been determined and budget cuts have been made move onto health care.

I suspect that if this were done first the cost of health care would not be so much of an issue.


----------



## FeXL

Further on socialized health care.

'It's insane': Ont. patient told she'd have to wait 4.5 years to see neurologist



> An Ontario doctor says health-care wait times have reached “insane” lengths in the province, as one of her patients faces a 4.5-year wait to see a neurologist.
> 
> When Dr. Joy Hataley, a family practice anesthetist in Kingston, Ont., recently tried to send a patient to a neurologist at the Kingston General Hospital, she received a letter from the specialist’s office telling her that the current wait time for new patient referrals is 4.5 years.


----------



## FeXL

I realize that you're not going to read this but that's an awful lot like letting the wolf tend the sheep, no?

The inefficiencies in the system are due to how gov't manages & operates itself. Do you honestly think that they can be objective about the problems & be critical enough of themselves to foment change? HA!!! Not. A. Chance. They are far too full of themselves.

If there are going to be audits they need to be executed by completely independent, outside agencies with zero ties to the gov't. Zero. And, once the recommendations are compiled, don't expect a single thing to change. Nada. Once again, they are far too full of themselves.

It's far easier to merely raise taxes, fees & costs on the backs of the taxpayer.



screature said:


> What the government needs to do is a full and thorough audit of where hospital and clinics, other health providers dollars go. Undoubtedly there is some waste there. But first or simultaneously do the same thing with all other public services. Trim the fat there first and once that has been determined and budget cuts have been made move onto health care.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

Actually, that's not what Scheer said at all. As usual, your memes are the product of the ill-informed, shared by the ill-informed.


----------



## SINC

Not to mention he did not in any way 'attack' the GG.

Here, for the uninformed, is exactly what he said and note that he said it to the PM, NOT the GG:



> *Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer is criticizing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau* for praising Gov. Gen. Julie Payette in the wake of Payette's suggestion that "divine intervention" did not play a role in the creation of life on Earth.
> 
> "It is extremely disappointing that the prime minister will not support Indigenous peoples, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Christians and other faith groups who believe there is truth in their religion," Scheer said in a statement posted to Facebook.
> 
> "Respect for diversity includes respect for the diversity of religious beliefs, and Justin Trudeau has offended millions of Canadians with his comments‎."


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> I realize that you're not going to read this but that's an awful lot like letting the wolf tend the sheep, no?
> 
> The inefficiencies in the system are due to how gov't manages & operates itself. Do you honestly think that they can be objective about the problems & be critical enough of themselves to foment change? HA!!! Not. A. Chance. They are far too full of themselves.
> 
> If there are going to be audits they need to be executed by completely independent, outside agencies with zero ties to the gov't. Zero. And, once the recommendations are compiled, don't expect a single thing to change. Nada. Once again, they are far too full of themselves.
> 
> It's far easier to merely raise taxes, fees & costs on the backs of the taxpayer.


Actually I did read your post. I realized after I posted it, that what I should have said instead government, was the AG. Governments in this country, in general tend to to listen an AG. If they don't then they have to account for it in the media and ultimately at the polling stations come election time.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Actually, that's not what Scheer said at all. As usual, your memes are the product of the ill-informed, shared by the ill-informed.





SINC said:


> Not to mention he did not in any way 'attack' the GG.
> 
> Here, for the uninformed, is exactly what he said and note that he said it to the PM, NOT the GG:


Right on the button as to the criticism of the GG's statement made by Sheer. What she said is not under the purview of her mandate and was extremely inappropriate. She should not be expressing her personal belief system as a GG and she should apologize. Also what she is basically saying is that if you are not an atheist you are stupid.

Here are the facts:



> What percentage of Canada is religious?
> 
> Christianity is the largest religion in Canada, with the Catholic Church having the most adherents. Christians, representing 67.3% of the population, are followed by people having no religion with 23.9% of the total population. Islam is the second largest religion in Canada, practised by 3.2% of the population.





> What is the percentage of atheists in Canada?
> 
> The 2011 Canadian census reported that 23.9% of Canadians declare no religious affiliation. According to Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance, among those estimated 4.9 million Canadians of no religion, an estimated 1.9 million would specify atheist, 1.8 would specify agnostic, and 1.2 humanist.


So she just insulted and alienated over two thirds of Canadians. Instead of being applauded by the PM for that statement she should be reprimanded by the PM and again she should apologize to Canadians.


----------



## SINC

^

Yep, in spades! :clap:


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> ^
> 
> Yep, in spades! :clap:


Well that’s what you get for not putting in a “highly qualified” person in that position, say like a CBC broadcaster. I am thinking she might be short lived there as her opinions and temperament in the past may surface in the future. That said “The Justin” may actually be oblivious to the storm on the horizon. We really need to get rid of the GG position or, if it is to be kept, give it a real job to do....chief of an equal and elected Senate would be nice.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Further on socialized health care.
> 
> 'It's insane': Ont. patient told she'd have to wait 4.5 years to see neurologist


First, it’s Kingston, second I didn’t notice if the one doctor placed STAT on the request. Yes we have huge wait times here, but our system is for medical care, not necessarily local in town care which is different. Here in Windsor it is not uncommon for local hospitals to ship patients to Detroit area hospitals for care or to London. Not defending the system but our system certainly needs some help but I don’t think it is entirely broken.


----------



## CubaMark

*The Rebel, placing its misogynism front-and-centre....*









(Image via The Rebel)​
*Catherine McKenna demands reporter's outlet stop calling her 'climate Barbie' in terse exchange*

Environment Minister Catherine McKenna pounced on a Rebel Media reporter at the closing news conference of the environment ministers' meeting in Vancouver on Friday demanding his organization stop calling her a "climate Barbie."

The exchange began when Rebel Media's B.C. bureau chief Christopher Wilson asked the minister what she thought the role was for hydro electricity in the province.

"So you're the Rebel Media that happens to call me climate Barbie, I certainly hope that you will no longer use that hashtag," McKenna said.

Wilson responded saying that he did not use that term personally, adding that he did not have editorial control over what Rebel Media decides to publish.

"Me personally yes, but I don't have control over others," Wilson said.

From there it descended into a bitter exchange — with Wilson accusing the minister of banning Rebel reporters from a climate conference, and the minister bringing her daughters into the picture.

"The reason I am asking you not to do this is because I have two daughters," McKenna said. "There are lots of girls that want to get into politics and it is completely unacceptable that you do this."

Rebel Media, and Wilson, have used the term "climate Barbie" to refer to the environment minister for some time, on the outlet's website, and on twitter.










In Sept. outgoing Conservative MP Gerry Ritz was forced to apologize when he used it to refer to McKenna in a tweet.

Ritz later deleted the tweet and apologized, saying the word "Barbie" is "not reflective of the role the minister plays."


















(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

With all of the serious issues facing the country, I can't believe this is considered anything other than Page 6 squabbling.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> With all of the serious issues facing the country, I can't believe this is considered anything other than Page 6 squabbling.


True, but it’s not about solving problems as it is about posturing.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> With all of the serious issues facing the country, I can't believe this is considered anything other than Page 6 squabbling.


No danger of your inner, sensitive side showing through, eh?

Are social conservatives incapable of understanding that words do have consequences? 

McKenna is entirely correct that the intentional denigration of women in public fora has a negative effect on young women who look at this hatred from the Right and say "No way am I ever going to put myself in a position to receive that kind of abuse."

But of course, that's the underlying objective, isn't it? Keep women in their place. Silence their voices. Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, that's the ethos to which you apparently ascribe. 

If I'm wrong, then there's a helluva lot of you guys not speaking up against this kind of behaviour by your conservative peers. As FeXL rants on (_and on_, _*and on*_) about muslims not speaking up against the terrorists among them, are you not also guilty of remaining silent while your fellow YXers berate the half of our population that enables our continued existence as a species?


----------



## Rps

CubaMark, I think the more important issue here is that the tabloid headline masks the concerns in the various articles written by The Rebel. The climate Barbie headline was used when the Rebel highlighted the purchase of luxury cars for testing.....now that in itself is another post indeed but the headline dominated the story. This is also a case of the same here...climate Barbie as the headline as opposed to crossing boundaries of courtesy with an elected Minister.....as headline suck the air out of the room, many times the real issue is lost or intentionally buried.


----------



## CubaMark

Rps said:


> CubaMark, I think the more important issue here is that the tabloid headline masks the concerns in the various articles written by The Rebel. The climate Barbie headline was used when the Rebel highlighted the purchase of luxury cars for testing.....now that in itself is another post indeed but the headline dominated the story. ...


I agree completely. Interesting (not) that the Rebel and its ilk see no problem in diluting attention to the actual matter at hand via their women-hating labelling when one would think they'd want to zero in on the issue. What does that say about their motives and objectives? Anyone with half a brain could anticipate "climate barbie" would generate controversy.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> McKenna is entirely correct that the intentional denigration of women in public fora has a negative effect on young women who look at this hatred from the Right and say "No way am I ever going to put myself in a position to receive that kind of abuse."


I really doubt it. Both girls and women are far more resilient than you give them credit for.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I really doubt it. Both girls and women are far more resilient than you give them credit for.


Yes they are, in the short cultural run, but if exposed to constant and media reinforced gender hegemony ( read Bay Watch, Legally Blonde, and Climate Barbie ) culturally it takes a toll. When I was young in my one room school days girls were always the smartest in math “ over boys” ( another generalisation indeed ). Now we have gender specific STEM programmes.....why? Ask Barbie.


----------



## screature

A very good article:

Chris Selley: With her dig at religion, Julie Payette plays a dangerous game for Liberals



> ...it’s easy to imagine an alternate universe, not much different than this one, where this wouldn’t have blown over very easily at all — if not for Payette then for the government who appointed her, and for several of its prominent ministers, including Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who used Twitter to congratulate the Governor General for “speaking up for science.”
> 
> The timing was not good at all. Just hours after Payette rolled her eyes in Ottawa on Wednesday night, the Supreme Court of Canada struck a pretty severe blow against religions that venerate the land and the animals that inhabit it — which is to say, Indigenous religions. Indigenous beliefs are immune from chattering- and media-class mockery and eye-rolling. Indeed, they’re often treated as something else entirely: “traditional knowledge,” or even a kind of science, and certainly worthy of utmost respect. Read narrowly, the Supreme Court’s ruling basically told Indigenous Canadians they are free to practice such worship but if it actually requires protecting anything physical from disturbance, they’re out of luck...





> ...Of course Payette would never roll her eyes at the Grizzly Bear Spirit the Ktunaxa believe inhabits the Jumbo Valley, where white settler colonialists want to build a ski resort. Had she riffed on Indigenous religious beliefs specifically on Wednesday, it would have been a full-blown crisis. But there’s no reason someone who believes in Indigenous creation myths couldn’t be just as offended as anyone else by her eye-roll, especially given the Supreme Court’s smackdown. If anything I’m surprised there hasn’t been more backlash from First Nations. It would certainly wipe the smirk off Liberal ministers’ faces on the double...


----------



## screature

Another very good article:


http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/gormley-trudeau-is-no-superman-and-neither-is-canada



> If Justin Trudeau ought not to have dressed as Superman for Halloween, it is only because he wore the costume a little too well.
> 
> When he pulled up his blue hosiery that morning, he may not have regarded the man in the mirror quite as an extraterrestrial hero, but throughout his tenure as prime minister he has made few attempts to dissuade people from believing he was born to save the world from the evil clutches of itself. Eventually, people cannot help but notice that the world goes unsaved. And inevitably, people get annoyed.
> 
> This is a government that is forever ripping open its shirt to show off superpowers it conspicuously lacks. By extension, Canada does the same. Canada, likewise, has no superpowers and is no superpower.
> 
> Unfortunately, our country’s ordinariness is no secret to the world. Presenting ourselves as Superman does not in fact make us look like Superman — it makes us look like some guy muttering excitedly to himself while walking down the street in a brightly coloured leotard...


----------



## FeXL

Are Progs incapable of knowing that words are not violence?



CubaMark said:


> Are social conservatives incapable of understanding that words do have consequences?


Seriously? :yikes:

Have you been reading/watching/paying attention to the news for the last month? Tell me how calling someone an innocuous name equates in any way, shape or form to Prog actors, producers, etc., sexually assaulting & raping women on the casting couch or elsewhere and other Prog actors diddling young men?

On what planet are those two equivalent?



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah, blah...this hatred from the Right...blah, blah, blah...Keep women in their place...blah, blah, blah...Silence their voices...blah, blah, blah...Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen...blah, blah, blah.


Ooooo... Someone called a politician a name. Wah fricken' wah. Grow a thicker skin, Barbie. If that's the worst thing that ever happens to you, consider yourself fortunate.



CubaMark said:


> If I'm wrong, then there's a helluva lot of you guys not speaking up against this kind of behaviour by your conservative peers.


I'd be willing to see you provide more than 2 or 3 of examples of me even mentioning this.

Prove me wrong. Go for it.

If you can't, then shut the fukc up. I'm tired of your Prog hyperbole, your unfounded Prog accusations & your Prog bull$h!t.



CubaMark said:


> As FeXL rants on (_and on_, _*and on*_) about muslims not speaking up against the terrorists among them, are you not also guilty of remaining silent...


Berate? It was a simple name CM. Grow up. Barbie, too.



CubaMark said:


> ...while your fellow YXers berate...


One would have thought that a good little Prog like you would be more informed. Guess it wasn't on MotherJones...

Womb transplants could allow men to have babies ‘tomorrow’, claims expert



CubaMark said:


> ...the half of our population that enables our continued existence as a species?


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Are Progs incapable of knowing that words are not violence


Actually under the law in Canada words can be considered a form of violence.



> *Threatening Words*
> 
> *A "threat" has been interpreted to include any "menace or denunciation that ill will befall the recipient".
> 
> "Bodily harm" includes psychological hurt or injury in addition to physical.
> *
> The test for whether an utterance constituted a criminal threat is a question of law not fact. The words "must be looked at in the context in which they were spoken or written, in light of the person to whom they were addressed and the circumstances in which they were uttered. They should be viewed in an objective way and the meaning attributed to the words should be that which a reasonable person would give to them."[3]
> 
> If the utterance meets the criteria, it is irrelevant whether the victim appreciated the threatening nature of the utterance.[4] To put it another way, the effect of the threat on the prospective victim is of no consequence.[5]
> 
> It is further of no relevance whether the accused was capable in carrying out the threat.[6]
> 
> A conditional threat in certain cases will satisfy the elements of a criminal threat.[7]
> 
> Where the potential target of the threat is unknown at the time the threat is made may still allow for conviction so long as it is targeting unascertainable or identifiable group.[8]
> 
> The fact that the subject of the threats did not feel threatened by them is not, by itself, reason to result in an acquittal.[9]
> 
> There is no requirement that the accused intend the recipient of the threat to convey it to the target.[10]
> 
> It is a valid defence where there is a reasonably credible or plausible alternative meaning of the words.
> 
> Words such as “I’ll get you”, and “Let me get my hands on him.”, in isolation are ambiguous and do not necessarily amount to a threat to cause bodily harm


Wikipedia

Also:



> *Violent and mean words may make you feel bad. Words can hurt*.
> 
> *Saying hurtful things is a way of bullying, scaring or putting someone down. So is yelling, screaming or threatening to hurt someone or do something mean to someone or to someone’s possessions or pets. These are ways that a person can abuse someone else – it’s called “emotional abuse”.*
> 
> Emotional abuse can also be actions that are hurtful. It’s emotional abuse to:
> 
> stop someone from seeing or talking to friends or family without a good reason
> make someone stay home all the time (this is different from being grounded for a few days)
> ignore someone or pretend they are not there for days
> destroying someone’s things or hurting their pets.
> 
> Emotional abuse is being mean without hitting. Words and the way someone says them can make you feel sad, angry, embarrassed, anxious, scared, helpless, alone. Emotional abuse is not a one-time thing. It can happen over and over. It continues even after you tell the person the words are hurting your feelings and ask them to stop.
> 
> *Emotional abuse by a family member is family violence.* Some forms of emotional abuse are crimes in Canada, such as threatening to harm or kill someone, and stalking somebody (following, telephoning, e-mailing, giving someone unwanted gifts or spying on a person in a way that scares that person).


Department of Justice

And further:



> *Canadian Criminal Law/Offences/Common Assault*
> 
> *Legislation*
> 
> 265. (1) *A person commits an assault when
> 
> (a) without the consent of another person*, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;
> (b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or
> (c) while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs.
> 
> Application
> (2) This section applies to all forms of assault, including sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm and aggravated sexual assault.
> 
> *Consent
> (3) For the purposes of this section, no consent is obtained where the complainant submits or does not resist by reason of*
> 
> (a) the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant;
> (b) *threats or fear of the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant;*
> (c) fraud; or
> (d) the exercise of authority.


Wikibooks

So it seems you did not do your home work when making your post and were just expressing your personal opinion.


----------



## SINC

Yep, really.

Let's stop pretending ‘social licence’ is an actual thing | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

But we all know that violence really requires physical contact, or physical damage. Anything else is abusive.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> But we all know that violence really requires physical contact, or physical damage. Anything else is abusive.


No read the laws above. Abuse *IS* a form of violence.

Cripes man I presented it in black and white for you. So* NO* violence does not require physical contact. It can be utterances of threats, etc. and *NO we do not* "all know that violence really requires physical contact". Because it simply is not true under the law. You are a smart man, surely you can appreciate the letter of the law.

If you disagree with the legal definitions, try and use that as your defense the next time you say to some one, "I am going to kill you, punch you in the face, kick you in the groin, etc. etc. etc." It won't go very far, the complainant will win the case if your words were heard by witnesses or recorded in one manner or another. "Go straight to jail and don't pass go."

For example this is how Newfound law views it:



> *Defining Violence and Abuse*
> 
> Violence and other forms of abuse are most commonly understood as a pattern of behaviour intended to establish and maintain control over family, household members, intimate partners, colleagues, individuals or groups. While violent offenders are most often known to their victims (intimate or estranged partners and spouses, family members, relatives, peers, colleagues, etc.), acts of violence and abuse may also be committed by strangers.
> 
> Violence and abuse may occur only once, can involve various tactics of subtle manipulation or may occur frequently while escalating over a period of months or years. In any form, violence and abuse profoundly affect individual health and well-being. The roots of all forms of violence are founded in the many types of inequality which continue to exist and grow in society.
> 
> Violence and abuse are used to establish and maintain power and control over another person, and often reflect an imbalance of power between the victim and the abuser.
> 
> Violence is a choice, and it is preventable.
> 
> There are nine distinct forms of violence and abuse:
> 
> Physical violence;
> Sexual violence;
> Emotional violence;
> Psychological violence;
> Spiritual violence;
> Cultural violence;
> Verbal Abuse;
> Financial Abuse; and,
> Neglect
> 
> Nine Types of Violence and Abuse
> 
> Physical Violence
> 
> Physical violence occurs when someone uses a part of their body or an object to control a person’s actions.
> 
> 
> Sexual Violence
> 
> Sexual violence occurs when a person is forced to unwillingly take part in sexual activity.
> 
> 
> Emotional Violence
> 
> Emotional violence occurs when someone says or does something to make a person feel stupid or worthless.
> 
> Psychological Violence
> 
> Psychological violence occurs when someone uses threats and causes fear in an individual to gain control.
> 
> 
> Spiritual Violence
> 
> Spiritual (or religious) violence occurs when someone uses an individual’s spiritual beliefs to manipulate, dominate or control that person.
> 
> 
> Cultural Violence
> 
> Cultural violence occurs when an individual is harmed as a result of practices that are part of her or his culture, religion or tradition.
> 
> Verbal Abuse
> 
> Verbal abuse occurs when someone uses language, whether spoken or written, to cause harm to an individual.
> 
> 
> Financial Abuse
> 
> Financial abuse occurs when someone controls an individual’s financial resources without the person’s consent or misuses those resources.
> 
> 
> Neglect
> 
> Neglect occurs when someone has the responsibility to provide care or assistance for an individual but does not.
> 
> 
> 1. Physical Violence
> 
> Physical violence occurs when someone uses a part of their body or an object to control a person’s actions.
> 
> Physical violence includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Using physical force which results in pain, discomfort or injury;
> Hitting, pinching, hair-pulling, arm-twisting, strangling, burning, stabbing, punching, pushing, slapping, beating, shoving, kicking, choking, biting, force-feeding, or any other rough treatment;
> Assault with a weapon or other object;
> Threats with a weapon or object;
> Deliberate exposure to severe weather or inappropriate room temperatures; and,
> Murder.
> 
> 
> Medication abuse
> Inappropriate use of medication, including:
> withholding medication;
> Not complying with prescription instructions; and,
> Over- or under-medication.
> 
> Restraints abuse
> Forcible confinement;
> Excessive, unwarranted or unnecessary use of physical restraints;
> Forcing a person to remain in bed;
> Unwarranted use of medication to control a person (also called “chemical restraint”); and,
> Tying the person to a bed or chair.
> 
> 2. Sexual Violence
> 
> Sexual violence occurs when a person is forced to unwillingly take part in sexual activity.
> 
> Sexual violence includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Touching in a sexual manner without consent (i.e., kissing, grabbing, fondling);
> Forced sexual intercourse;
> Forcing a person to perform sexual acts that may be degrading or painful;
> Beating sexual parts of the body;
> Forcing a person to view pornographic material; forcing participation in pornographic filming;
> Using a weapon to force compliance;
> Exhibitionism;
> Making unwelcome sexual comments or jokes; leering behaviour;
> Withholding sexual affection;
> Denial of a person’s sexuality or privacy (watching);
> Denial of sexual information and education;
> Humiliating, criticizing or trying to control a person’s sexuality;
> Forced prostitution;
> Unfounded allegations of promiscuity and/or infidelity; and,
> Purposefully exposing the person to HIV-AIDS or other sexually transmitted infections.
> 
> *3. Emotional Violence
> 
> Emotional violence occurs when someone says or does something to make a person feel stupid or worthless.
> 
> Emotional violence includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Name calling;
> Blaming all relationship problems on the person;
> Using silent treatment;
> Not allowing the person to have contact with family and friends;
> Destroying possessions;
> Jealousy;
> Humiliating or making fun of the person;
> Intimidating the person; causing fear to gain control;
> Threatening to hurt oneself if the person does not cooperate;
> Threatening to abandon the person; and,
> Threatening to have the person deported (if they are an immigrant).
> 
> 4. Psychological Violence
> 
> Psychological violence occurs when someone uses threats and causes fear in a person to gain control.
> 
> Psychological violence includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Threatening to harm the person or her or his family if she or he leaves;
> Threatening to harm oneself;
> Threats of violence;
> Threats of abandonment;
> Stalking / criminal harassment;
> Destruction of personal property;
> Verbal aggression;
> Socially isolating the person;
> Not allowing access to a telephone;
> Not allowing a competent person to make decisions;
> Inappropriately controlling the person’s activities;
> Treating a person like a child or a servant;
> Withholding companionship or affection;
> Use of undue pressure to:
> Sign legal documents;
> Not seek legal assistance or advice;
> Move out of the home;
> Make or change a legal will or beneficiary;
> Make or change an advance health care directive;
> Give money or other possessions to relatives or other caregivers; and,
> Do things the person doesn’t want to do. *
> 
> 5. Spiritual Violence
> 
> Spiritual (or religious) violence occurs when someone uses a person’s spiritual beliefs to manipulate, dominate or control the person.
> 
> Spiritual violence includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Not allowing the person to follow her or his preferred spiritual or religious tradition;
> Forcing a spiritual or religious path or practice on another person;
> Belittling or making fun of a person’s spiritual or religious tradition, beliefs or practices; and,
> Using one’s spiritual or religious position, rituals or practices to manipulate, dominate or control a person.
> 
> 6. Cultural Violence
> 
> Cultural violence occurs when a person is harmed as a result of practices that are part of her or his culture, religion or tradition.
> 
> Cultural violence includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Committing “honour” or other crimes against women in some parts of the world, where women especially may be physically harmed, shunned, maimed or killed for:
> Falling in love with the “wrong” person;
> Seeking divorce;
> Infidelity; committing adultery;
> Being raped;
> Practicing witchcraft; and,
> Being older.
> Cultural violence may take place in some of the following ways:
> Lynching or stoning;
> Banishment;
> Abandonment of an older person at hospital by family;
> Female circumcision;
> Rape-marriage;
> Sexual slavery; and,
> Murder
> 
> 7. Verbal Abuse
> 
> Verbal abuse occurs when someone uses language, whether spoken or written, to cause harm to a person.
> 
> Verbal abuse includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Recalling a person’s past mistakes;
> Expressing negative expectations;
> Expressing distrust;
> Threatening violence against a person or her or his family members;
> Yelling;
> Lying;
> Name-calling;
> Insulting, swearing;
> Withholding important information;
> Unreasonably ordering around;
> Talking unkindly about death to a person; and,
> Telling a person she or he is worthless or nothing but trouble.
> 
> 8. Financial Abuse
> 
> Financial abuse occurs when someone controls a person’s financial resources without the person’s consent or misuses those resources.
> 
> Financial abuse includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> Not allowing the person to participate in educational programs;
> Forcing the person to work outside the home;
> Refusing to let the person work outside the home or attend school;
> Controlling the person’s choice of occupation;
> Illegally or improperly using a person’s money, assets or property;
> Acts of fraud; pulling off a scam against a person;
> Taking funds from the person without permission for one’s own use;
> Misusing funds through lies, trickery, controlling or withholding money;
> Not allowing access to bank accounts, savings, or other income;
> Giving an allowance and then requiring justification for all money spent;
> Persuading the person to buy a product or give away money;
> Selling the house, furnishings or other possessions without permission;
> Forging a signature on pension cheques or legal documents;
> Misusing a power of attorney, an enduring power of attorney or legal guardianship;
> Not paying bills;
> Opening mail without permission;
> Living in a person’s home without paying fairly for expenses; and,
> Destroying personal property.
> 
> 9. Neglect
> 
> Neglect occurs when someone has the responsibility to provide care or assistance for you but does not.
> 
> Neglect includes, but is not limited to, the following:
> 
> Failing to meet the needs of a person who is unable to meet those needs alone;
> Abandonment in a public setting; and,
> Not remaining with a person who needs help.
> 
> 
> Physical neglect
> Disregarding necessities of daily living, including failing to provide adequate or necessary:
> Nutrition or fluids;
> Shelter;
> Clean clothes and linens;
> Social companionship; and,
> Failing to turn a bed-ridden person frequently to prevent stiffness and bed-sores.
> 
> Medical neglect
> Ignoring special dietary requirements;
> Not providing needed medications;
> Not calling a physician; not reporting or taking action on a medical condition, injury or problem; and,
> Not being aware of the possible negative effects of medications.


Defining Violence and Abuse

You seem to out of touch with current law and like FeXL can only support you argument based on personal opinion and not legal definitions.


----------



## FeXL

Awrite, let's explore this a bit.

Your first linked article doesn't contain any hits for the word "violence". Neither does your third. Therefore I have difficulty understanding why you used them as a defence for your argument.

The second linked article contains one hit for "violence" and, as presented in the article, is certainly _not_ a legal definition.

It appears you are the one who has not done due diligence in defending your argument.



screature said:


> *If you disagree with the legal definitions*, try and use that as your defense the next time you say to some one, "I am going to kill you, punch you in the face, kick you in the groin, etc. etc. etc." It won't go very far, the complainant will win the case if your words were heard by witnesses or recorded in one manner or another. "Go straight to jail and don't pass go."


----------



## Macfury

I would have to agree, screature. Wikipedia is hardly the final word on this.

The Canadian Law section says it is an "assault" but not violence. If I say a terrible piece of music is an assault on the senses, I am not saying it is violent.



FeXL said:


> Awrite, let's explore this a bit.
> 
> Your first linked article doesn't contain any hits for the word "violence". Neither does your third. Therefore I have difficulty understanding why you used them as a defence for your argument.
> 
> The second linked article contains one hit for "violence" and, as presented in the article, is certainly _not_ a legal definition.
> 
> It appears you are the one who has not done due diligence in defending your argument.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> But we all know that violence really requires physical contact, or physical damage. Anything else is abusive.


If you click through to intimidation you see language consistent with that:
"uses violence or threats of violence"

This distinguishes between violence and words threatening violence (both illegal).

But the way things are going, laws based on interpreting 1984 as a manual for good governance will multiply.

As the great A. Powers said, "That train has sailed."


----------



## Macfury

Such Beejspeak!



Beej said:


> If you click through to intimidation you see language consistent with that:
> "uses violence or threats of violence"
> 
> This distinguishes between violence and words threatening violence (both illegal).
> 
> But the way things are going, laws based on interpreting 1984 as a manual for good governance will multiply.
> 
> As the great A. Powers said, "That train has sailed."


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Such Beejspeak!


Beejspeak good, newspeak bad.


----------



## Dr.G.

Beej said:


> Beejspeak good, newspeak bad.


:lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## Beej

Dr.G. said:


> :lmao::clap::lmao:


Thanks. I have weekly shows at 2pm and 4pm.


----------



## Dr.G.

Beej said:


> Thanks. I have weekly shows at 2pm and 4pm.


Yes, I have my PVR set to both times, just in case you are preempted for some reason. As your promo states, "This is BeejTV ............ all the news that is fit to air."


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> Thanks. I have weekly shows at 2pm and 4pm.




Try the veal. And remember to tip your waitress.


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Try the veal. And remember to tip your waitress.


 I don't eat veal, but I am a good tipper. Paix, mon ami.

I like the topic of Beej's show tomorrow morning .................... the potential global economic crisis, and why is this dog smiling knowing that there is potential doom out in the real world?


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> I don't eat veal, but I am a good tipper.


I prefer to pound the living hell outta boneless pork chops so they are very thin, dip them in flour, egg and bread crumbs, fry them in veggie oil and disguise them a breaded veal cutlets, or schnitzel as the German properly call the pork version.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> I prefer to pound the living hell outta boneless pork chops so they are very thin, dip them in flour, egg and bread crumbs, fry them in veggie oil and disguise them a breaded veal cutlets, or schnitzel as the German properly call the pork version.


I love schnitzel :love2::love2::love2::love2:


----------



## SINC

Looks like a trend to me. 

Ex-Guantanamo captive plans to sue Canada for $50 million for alleged complicity in his torture | National Post


----------



## Macfury

I'm sure they're even now restraining Trudeau Jr. from rushing to the chequebook.



SINC said:


> Looks like a trend to me.
> 
> Ex-Guantanamo captive plans to sue Canada for $50 million for alleged complicity in his torture | National Post


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Awrite, let's explore this a bit.
> 
> Your first linked article doesn't contain any hits for the word "violence". Neither does your third. Therefore I have difficulty understanding why you used them as a defence for your argument.
> 
> The second linked article contains one hit for "violence" and, as presented in the article, is certainly _not_ a legal definition.
> 
> It appears you are the one who has not done due diligence in defending your argument.


Tell me what is bodily harm if not violence? Hmm? Also you completely ignore the laws of Newfoundland and their definitions. 

The third does refer to violnce because it addresses assault. What is assault:



> *Definition of assault*
> 
> 1 a :a violent physical or *verbal attack*
> b :a military attack usually involving direct combat with enemy forces an assault on the enemy's air base
> c :a concerted effort (as to reach a goal or defeat an adversary) an assault on drug trafficking
> 2 law
> a :*a threat *or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension (see apprehension 1) of such harm or contact


Merriam Webster



> *Language as violence*
> 
> In terms of violence, language can be used to convey violent ideas and feelings through what an audience can infer about the extent of the word or statement's meaning. *Although "violence" is presumably physical, it can extend into the verbal realm of spoken and written communication in a way that produces a physical effect. Language can be constituted as a violent action because when it is used violently, it shares characteristics with other violent actions – it causes pain.*[3] Language can constitute violence in a number of ways but is generally executed as violence when it ( language) can be used to reinforce power over a marginalized group or individual in a way that hurts or harms that group **(cite The Reality of Linguistic Violence Against Women). Because of this, language can be destructive to a group or individual based on what feelings or attitudes that particular institution has attached to the words they use to carry out violence.


Wikipedia  (Re: Wikipedia as a viable source of information, it sure beats the hell out of one person's opinion.)

I did do due diligence and research you did none you simply expressed an opinion based on no supporting evidence at all.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I'm sure they're even now restraining Trudeau Jr. from rushing to the chequebook.


It's a shame your Trudeau Derangement Syndrome prevents you from discussing these issues logically.

Ameziane is very likely correct in blaming Canada for putting him in harm's way, as nothing indicates that he has any connection to terrorism. As with the recent case of two Syrian-Canadians, the Canadian security establishment does appear to have taken action with no foundation in evidence that resulted in Ameziane's detention at the hands of the USA in their illegal / extra-judicial torture prison on occupied territory at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

However - he has a snowball's chance in hell of winning any court case, IMHO. He's not a Canadian citizen. Khadr and others who have won court cases / received settlements did so because they were citizens whose rights had been violated. Ameziane applied for refugee status but was rejected. 

Ameziane's strongest beef is with the gringos... but since they don't recognize any legal jurisdiction that is not their own (e.g., the International Court at the Hague), he'll never see any redress from Washington.

Just one more person whose life has been ruined by U.S. imperialism.


----------



## screature

*The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms*

It is surprising to me that, from what I have read in the media, that no one is criticizing the GG and the PM for basically completely ignoring The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

For it states:



> Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of
> God and the rule of law:
> 
> *Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms*
> 
> 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights
> and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by
> law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
> Fundamental Freedoms
> 
> 2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
> 
> *(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
> (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom
> of the press and other media of communication;*
> (c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
> (d) freedom of association.


It is completely outrageous for her to have made the mocking statement that she did with a roll of here eyes and for Trudeau Jr. to have applauded her for her statement.

Some would say she has the freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression so it is ok for her to say what she did. But she is the GG, the Queens voice in Canada, in her role as GG she should not be speaking her personal beliefs and lest we forget, The Church of England (C of E) is the state church of England. The Archbishop of Canterbury (currently Justin Welby) is the most senior cleric, although *the monarch is the supreme governor.* The Church of England is also the mother church of the international Anglican Communion.

So she has also insulted her superior, the Queen of England.


----------



## FeXL

Who said anything about bodily harm not being violence? IMO that's the only form of violence there is. You _cannot_ perform bodily harm against someone with mere words. That's my point entirely.

I could leave it there but I'll continue.

Your exact words were:



> Actually under the law in Canada words can be considered a form of violence.


I ignored NL because while NL is certainly within Canada, it's laws are not applicable to the ROC.



screature said:


> Tell me what is bodily harm if not violence? Hmm? Also you completely ignore the laws of Newfoundland and their definitions.


You also talked about legal definitions:



> If you disagree with the legal definitions


You are pointing to a dictionary definition & attempting to connect it to a word in a legal definition. That's a logical fallacy known as a false equivalence. A link to Merriam Webster falls something short of a _legal definition_. I can link a dozen online dictionaries each with their own interpretation of the word. Legally, they mean nothing.



screature said:


> The third does refer to violnce because it addresses assault. What is assault:


As far as your claim that Wiki is a reputable resource, it entirely depends on what references where used for the original article. Many times all it is is a person's opinion.

In this particular case I have no desire nor need to verify the source material. Your argument doesn't even make it that far.



screature said:


> (Re: Wikipedia as a viable source of information, it sure beats the hell out of one person's opinion.)


No. You've made claims which I have shown as specious at best & outright wrong at worst.



screature said:


> I did do due diligence and research you did none you simply expressed an opinion based on no supporting evidence at all.


----------



## FeXL

I say this sadly, it doesn't surprise me at all.



screature said:


> It is surprising to me that, from what I have read in the media, that no one is criticizing the GG and the PM for basically completely ignoring The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> *Who said anything about bodily harm not being violence? IMO that's the only form of violence there is. You cannot perform bodily harm against someone with mere words. * That's my point entirely.
> 
> I could leave it there but I'll continue.
> 
> Your exact words were:
> 
> 
> 
> I ignored NL because while NL is certainly within Canada, it's laws are not applicable to the ROC.
> 
> 
> 
> You also talked about legal definitions:
> 
> 
> 
> You are pointing to a dictionary definition & attempting to connect it to a word in a legal definition. That's a logical fallacy known as a false equivalence. A link to Merriam Webster falls something short of a _legal definition_. I can link a dozen online dictionaries each with their own interpretation of the word. Legally, they mean nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as your claim that Wiki is a reputable resource, it entirely depends on what references where used for the original article. Many times all it is is a person's opinion.
> 
> In this particular case I have no desire nor need to verify the source material. Your argument doesn't even make it that far.
> 
> 
> 
> No. You've made claims which I have shown as specious at best & outright wrong at worst.


You seem to be incapable of understanding the law and the definition of words:

"*Bodily harm" includes psychological hurt or injury* in addition to physical.

So carry on your merry way ignoring all the evidence that I presented. Where is your evidence, beyond your opinion, that words cannot be a form of violence?

You have a way of demeaning others posts without presenting any evidence to support your own words other than your high opinion of them.

Believe what you want to believe, personally I don't care because you are beyond hope when it comes to actual debate. So go ahead and keep living in the free state of FeXL where you are the supreme ruler, judge and jury.

At any rate I know I need not continue to argue with you, because anyone who differs with you is automatically wrong.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Villas!



> Club Med announces its first Canada resort to open in Le Massif, Charlevoix Ski Region
> 
> The project represents a $120 million investment with the objective of developing 300 rooms including 4-Trident Club and Deluxe-level rooms with a 5-Trident luxury space. The future resort promises to be a haven for family and couple getaways as well as ideal for groups, with spaces provided to accommodate seminars and events.
> 
> Club Med brings its unique all-inclusive mountain vacation model to the heart of an already renowned ski region situated at the highest point in Eastern Canada, including a unique ski experience with spectacular waterfront views overlooking the Saint Laurence River.
> 
> And now, the rest of the story.
> 
> The Government of Canada provides $9,850,000 in funding for the Le Massif de Charlevoix Hotel Complex Limited Partnership


Hey, Piggy, where's the Sooooouuuuuuiiiiieeee!!! for the pork barreling? Curious, your silence on all these issues regarding the Liberals. You don't believe in double standards like most Progs, do you? :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

Where is the link to the exact legal Canadian document that states that?

If you're referring to your third Wiki article, I find this curious little disclaimer at the top of the article:



> *This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.*
> Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
> Feel free to edit the article, but the article *must not* be blanked, and this notice *must not* be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the guide to deletion.
> 
> This article is an orphan, as no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; try the Find link tool for suggestions. (February 2017)
> 
> *This article has multiple issues.* Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. (Learn how and when to remove these template messages)
> 
> This article *has no lead section*. Please help by adding an introductory section to this article. For more information, see the layout guide, and Wikipedia's lead section guidelines to ensure the section will be inclusive of all the essential details. Please discuss this issue on the article's talk page. (August 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
> 
> This article *needs additional citations for verification*. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
> 
> This article *is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay* that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings about a topic. Please help improve it by rewriting it in an encyclopedic style. (August 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
> 
> This article *may be unbalanced towards certain viewpoints.*


Bold from the link.

I draw your attention in particular to the penultimate paragraph: _This article *is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay* that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings about a topic._

Funny, wasn't I just talking about that?

Next, I understand what you've posted just fine. In absolutely no document you've linked to have I seen a Canada-wide legal definition of words being violence.



screature said:


> You seem to be incapable of understanding the law and the definition of words:
> 
> "*Bodily harm" includes psychological hurt or injury* in addition to physical.


What evidence? To recap, you've posted links to two Wiki articles that don't even contain the word "violence", a link to a Canadian Justice article that mentions "violence" only in a tangential fashion and certainly does not connect violence to words, a link to a non-legal online dictionary and a link to a third Wiki article that's on it's deathbed.

You say this connection exists. I'm asking where? The onus is up to you to prove the existence thereof.



screature said:


> So carry on your merry way ignoring all the evidence that I presented. Where is your evidence, beyond your opinion, that words cannot be a form of violence?


Once again, where? I've been more than polite in my dissection of your posts.



screature said:


> You have a way of demeaning others posts...


Actual debate means providing supporting evidence for your statement. Thus far you have provided no, zero, evidence.



screature said:


> Believe what you want to believe, personally I don't care because you are beyond hope when it comes to actual debate.


There it is: the Victim Card.



screature said:


> So go ahead and keep living in the free state of FeXL where you are the supreme ruler, judge and jury.


Not even close, Screature. I'll listen to any argument that is supported with actual, verifiable, facts. If it is presented well, I'll change my opinion immediately.



screature said:


> At any rate I know I need not continue to argue with you, because anyone who differs with you is automatically wrong.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s Paris climate deal to cost billions



> A new United Nations report says the Trudeau government is so far behind meeting the greenhouse gas reduction targets it agreed to in the Paris climate accord, it will likely have to buy billions of dollars worth of carbon offsets to meet its international commitments.
> 
> The problem, as even the report concedes, is that global carbon offset markets are riddled with fraud, meaning that buying them may not actually lower emissions.


More:



> It says Canada is poised to miss both its 2020 and 2030 Paris targets, agreed to by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in 2015, “by a wide margin.”


Related:

Trudeau's Titanic lie heading for an iceberg



> When the next in the series of the United Nations’ never-ending, carbon-spewing, climate change road shows gets underway in Bonn, Germany, Monday, Canadians will be told two big political lies.
> 
> The first is that the Paris climate accord, signed two years ago, still has a chance to lower global greenhouse gas emissions to what it describes as the “safe” level needed to avert global warming catastrophe by 2100.
> 
> The second is that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau still has a chance to meet the emission cuts he agreed to when he endorsed the Paris accord in 2015.
> 
> In reality, Canada is so far behind meeting Trudeau’s 2020 and 2030 emission pledges, the only way to do it will be if Trudeau uses billions of taxpayers’ dollars to buy carbon offsets on international carbon markets, which are riddled by fraud.


More:



> The accord, however, has been a roaring success in one sense.
> 
> That is, *it has given political leaders like Trudeau, Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne and Alberta’s Rachel Notley, the perfect excuse to extract billions of dollars more annually from the pockets of ordinary Canadians in the name of “fighting global warming” regardless of whether significant or any emission cuts are actually achieved.*


M'bold.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> I ignored NL because while NL is certainly within Canada, it's laws are not applicable to the ROC.


I searched for "violen" in the federal criminal code:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C-46.pdf

The wording is usually used in the manner I pointed out a few posts back. 

It looks like the term has suffered greatly from "vague-ification" in other documents. Redefine it to cover an increasingly broad selection of things until it's barely distinguishable from "bad behaviour". The gap between legal/academic use and common use grows.

Here's a quick test: is a threat of vague-ified violence a thing? In other words, threatening violence is clearly illegal. Is it illegal to threaten to hurt someone's feelings? If so, does the related legislation look like it's trying to change English, or simply implement a law?


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Where is the link to the exact legal Canadian document that states that?
> 
> If you're referring to your third Wiki article, I find this curious little disclaimer at the top of the article:
> 
> 
> 
> Bold from the link.
> 
> I draw your attention in particular to the penultimate paragraph: _This article *is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay* that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings about a topic._
> 
> Funny, wasn't I just talking about that?
> 
> Next, I understand what you've posted just fine. In absolutely no document you've linked to have I seen a Canada-wide legal definition of words being violence.
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence? To recap, you've posted links to two Wiki articles that don't even contain the word "violence", a link to a Canadian Justice article that mentions "violence" only in a tangential fashion and certainly does not connect violence to words, a link to a non-legal online dictionary and a link to a third Wiki article that's on it's deathbed.
> 
> You say this connection exists. I'm asking where? The onus is up to you to prove the existence thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, where? I've been more than polite in my dissection of your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Actual debate means providing supporting evidence for your statement. Thus far you have provided no, zero, evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> There it is: the Victim Card.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close, Screature. I'll listen to any argument that is supported with actual, verifiable, facts. If it is presented well, I'll change my opinion immediately.


My original opening statement was this:



> *Actually under the law in Canada words can be considered a form of violence.*


Don't families live in Canada?



> * About Family Violence*
> 
> What is family violence?
> 
> Family violence is when someone uses abusive behaviour to control and/or harm a member of their family, or someone with whom they have an intimate relationship.
> 
> *Family violence includes many different forms of physical and emotional abuse,* as well as neglect carried out by family members or intimate partners. It may include a single act of violence, or a number of acts that form a pattern of abuse. Family violence can have serious-and sometimes fatal-consequences for victims and for those who see or hear the violence.
> 
> Although the Criminal Code does not refer to specific "family violence offences", many Criminal Code offences could be used to charge someone with acts of family violence. For more information on the criminal laws that could be applied, please see family violence Laws.
> 
> *Forms and types of violence*
> 
> There are many forms of violence, including physical, sexual, *emotional *and financial abuse.
> 
> The different forms of abuse can also occur in a range of relationships and contexts. Some examples of various types of family violence are intimate partner violence, child abuse and neglect, elder abuse, violence based on so-called "honour" and forced marriage.
> Forms of violence
> 
> *Family violence is not just physical violence.* A person can be the victim of one or more forms of violence or abuse including:
> 
> Physical abuse
> Sexual abuse
> *Emotional abuse*
> Financial abuse
> Neglect
> 
> Physical abuse
> 
> Physical abuse, including assault, is the intentional use of force against a person without that person's consent. It can cause physical pain or injury that may last a long time. Physical abuse includes:
> 
> pushing or shoving
> hitting, slapping or kicking
> pinching or punching
> strangling or choking
> stabbing or cutting
> shooting
> throwing objects at someone
> burning
> holding someone down for someone else to assault
> locking someone in a room or tying them down
> killing someone
> 
> All of these acts are crimes in Canada.
> Sexual abuse
> 
> Sexual abuse of an adult can include:
> 
> sexual touching or sexual activity without consent
> continued sexual contact when asked to stop
> forcing someone to commit unsafe or humiliating sexual acts
> 
> All sexual contact with anyone without consent is a crime. This includes sexual touching or forcing sexual activity on a spouse, a common law partner or a dating partner. Even when married, a spouse cannot be forced to have sexual contact.
> 
> There are also special laws to protect children from sexual abuse and from sexual activities that exploit them.
> Emotional abuse
> 
> *Emotional abuse happens when a person uses words or actions to control, frighten or isolate someone or take away their self-respect. Emotional abuse is sometimes called psychological abuse. It can include:
> 
> threats, put downs, name calling or insults
> constant yelling or criticism
> controlling or keeping someone from seeing friends or family
> making fun of preventing someone from practicing their faith or religion
> destroying belongings, hurting pets or threatening to do so
> bullying: intimidation or humiliation (including on the Internet)*


Department of Justice




> *Family Violence Laws*
> 
> Under the Constitution, the Parliament of Canada has the authority to make laws related to criminal law and determine the rules of criminal procedure. As a result, the Criminal Code applies to all Canadians. Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC) carries out prosecutions of the majority of federal offences, including drug offences, however it is the provinces that prosecute most Criminal Code offences in the provinces. In the territories, PPSC conducts all criminal prosecutions, including those under the Criminal Code.
> Federal legislation addressing family violence in Canada
> 
> While there is no specific offence of family violence in the Criminal Code, most acts of family violence are crimes in Canada. Relevant criminal offences could include:
> 
> Offences related to the use of physical and sexual violence such as:
> 
> assault (causing bodily harm, with a weapon and aggravated assault) (ss. 265-268)
> kidnapping & forcible confinement (s. 279)
> trafficking in persons (ss. 279.01)
> abduction of a young person (ss. 280-283)
> homicide - murder, attempted murder, infanticide and manslaughter (ss. 229-231 and 235)
> sexual assault (causing bodily harm, with a weapon and aggravated sexual assault) (ss. 271-273)
> sexual offences against children and youth (ss. 151, 152, 153, 155 and 170-172)
> child pornography (s. 163.1)
> 
> Offences related to the administration of justice such as:
> 
> disobeying order of court (s. 127)
> failure to comply with condition of undertaking (s.145(3)),
> failure to comply with probation order (s. 733.1)
> breach of recognizance (peace bond) (s. 811)
> 
> *Offences related to some forms of psychological or emotional abuse within the family that involve using words or actions to control, isolate, intimidate or dehumanize someone such as:*
> 
> criminal harassment (sometimes called "stalking") (s. 264)
> *uttering threats (s. 264.1)
> making indecent and harassing phone calls (s. 372)*
> trespassing at night (s. 177)
> mischief (s. 430)


Department of Justice

Not that you going to pay any attention to this or give it any credence. 

Remember I used the words: Actually under the law in Canada words *can be considered a form* of violence.


----------



## Macfury

If you include those, you also need to include the rest of the list on that page: forgery and theft, for example. The web page does not call them violent acts, it calls these legal issues that could affect family violence.


----------



## Rps

Screature, how about just simply saying “I’m going to kill you”. Said with conviction those words would land someone in a heap of trouble. Word selection and tone use is indeed a form of violence in Canada.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Screature, how about just simply saying “I’m going to kill you”. Said with conviction those words would land someone in a heap of trouble. Word selection and tone use is indeed a form of violence in Canada.


No, this is not violence. It is the threat of violence.

If I offer you a glass of water, but never deliver you can't say your thirst was slaked.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> If you include those, you also need to include the rest of the list on that page: forgery and theft, for example. The web page does not call them violent acts, it calls these legal issues that could affect family violence.


So what? It does not disprove or discount my original point in any way.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> No, this is not violence. It is the threat of violence.
> 
> If I offer you a glass of water, but never deliver you can't say your thirst was slaked.


I got nuthin!


----------



## screature

Beej said:


> I searched for "violen" in the federal criminal code:
> http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C-46.pdf
> 
> The wording is usually used in the manner I pointed out a few posts back.
> 
> It looks like the term has suffered greatly from "vague-ification" in other documents. Redefine it to cover an increasingly broad selection of things until it's barely distinguishable from "bad behaviour". The gap between legal/academic use and common use grows.
> 
> Here's a quick test: is a threat of vague-ified violence a thing? In other words, threatening violence is clearly illegal. Is it illegal to threaten to hurt someone's feelings? If so, does the related legislation look like it's trying to change English, or simply implement a law?


The English language is constantly evolving so it is not unexpected that, "The gap between legal/academic use and common use grows."

But it is clear that under Family Law in Canada as it exists now words *can be considered a form of violence.*


----------



## FeXL

Well, then I guess Climate Barbie is committing violence against me 'cause she's calling me a Climate Denier...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Climate Barbie and Prince Bonehead want to manipulate you into thinking it's unacceptable to make their government look ridiculous



> One of the most blatantly manipulative schemes of political suppression occurred this week when Canada's Environment Minister, Katherine McKenna, demanded that Rebel Media cease referring to her as "Climate Barbie."
> 
> McKenna is a marginally adept Minister who has derided her critics as 'climate deniers', invoking the comparison with Holocaust deniers, and whose responses to serious questions usually take the form of vacuous talking points.


:baby:

Maybe I can sue Juthdin, er, The Hairdo, er, The Spawn, er, Price Bonehead for $10 million or so...


----------



## Macfury

It's clear that some people can no longer abide words.



screature said:


> The English language is constantly evolving so it is not unexpected that, "The gap between legal/academic use and common use grows."
> 
> But it is clear that under Family Law in Canada as it exists now words *can be considered a form of violence.*


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It's clear that some people can no longer abide words.


Precisely. It's merely another tentacle of this Prog Social Justice bull$h!t that's pervasive among college campuses, among others, planet-wide.

"I can't abide hearing a point of view different from mine! That's violence, you beast!!! Where's my safe space..."

What a crock...


----------



## Macfury

I also don't accept that government snowflakes have the power to change the meaning of words. "Officially" re-naming a cow and calling it a dragon doesn't prove the existence of dragons. This sort of Orwellian brainwashing has no legitimacy.



FeXL said:


> Precisely. It's merely another tentacle of this Prog Social Justice bull$h!t that's pervasive among college campuses, among others, planet-wide.
> 
> "I can't abide hearing a point of view different from mine! That's violence, you beast!!! Where's my safe space..."
> 
> What a crock...


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's clear that some people can no longer abide words.





FeXL said:


> Precisely. It's merely another tentacle of this Prog Social Justice bull$h!t that's pervasive among college campuses, among others, planet-wide.
> 
> "I can't abide hearing a point of view different from mine! That's violence, you beast!!! Where's my safe space..."
> 
> What a crock...





Macfury said:


> I also don't accept that government snowflakes have the power to change the meaning of words. "Officially" re-naming a cow and calling it a dragon doesn't prove the existence of dragons. This sort of Orwellian brainwashing has no legitimacy.


It seems that some people can't accept the fact that the English language has been evolving since the dawn of the English language, that it does not suit you is your problem. Everything changes, everything.


----------



## FeXL

This has absolutely zero to do with the evolution of language...



screature said:


> It seems that some people can't accept the fact that the English language has been evolving since the dawn of the English language, that it does not suit you is your problem. Everything changes, everything.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> This has absolutely zero to do with the evolution of language...


Whatever you say FeXL, what ever you say.


----------



## FeXL

Learn it. Remember it.



screature said:


> Whatever you say FeXL, what ever you say.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Learn it. Remember it.


Takes the guesswork out of things!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

What could possibly go wrong?

Small kirpans permitted on flights under new Transport Canada rules



> THE World Sikh Organization of Canada on Monday welcomed the decision by Transport Canada to allow blades of up to 6 cm in length on domestic and international flights in Canada. As of November 27, kirpans with blades of up to 6 cm will be permitted on Canadian flights.


What's wrong with putting 'em in checked luggage, like everybody else has to?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015*

Nice to see Climate Barbie toes the Liberal line & blames staff when a tweet comes back to bite her in the backside.

Catherine McKenna accidentally praises Syria on Twitter, blames staff for error



> Environment Minister Catherine McKenna blamed staff for a tweet issued from her ministerial account praising Syria for joining the Paris Climate Accord.
> 
> The tweet, which was later deleted, read “Canada Salutes Nicaragua and Syria for joining on to the Paris Agreement!” Global #Climateaction #Cop23


It's always somebody else's fault with these idiots, isn't it?

Look in the mirror, Barbie. If there's a problem with your staff & you're the staff leader, you're the problem.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Nice to see Climate Barbie...


Hey, how's that misogynism working out for ya, FeXL?

XX)


----------



## FeXL

Dunno. Have to ask a Muslim...

Hey, CM, question for ya: If it's offside for someone to call her Climate Barbie, on what planet is it OK for her to call people who disagree with her global warming prognostications, Global Warming Deniers? Along with all the negative, holocaust-related implications?

She's made her bed...



CubaMark said:


> Hey, how's that misogynism working out for ya, FeXL?
> 
> XX)


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> Small kirpans permitted on flights under new Transport Canada rules
> 
> What's wrong with putting 'em in checked luggage, like everybody else has to?


The announcement starts by saying:



> Consistent with international practice


 What international practice? The US still does not allow it this is ridiculous. Garneau seems to be still in outer space. Also note it is not only kirpans, it is *any* small knife blades 6 cm or less, it does not specifically mention a small kirpan as the articles by the Sikh media suggests. It is completely absurd and unnecessary. 

Here is the full News Release from Transport Canada:



> *From Transport Canada*
> 
> November 6, 2017 Ottawa, Ontario
> 
> From visiting friends and family, to getting goods to market, Canadians, tourists and businesses rely on Canada’s safe and secure aviation system. Adjustments to screening procedures are necessary from time to time to reflect changes in the security environment and to harmonize with international standards and partner countries. Transport Canada is amending its Prohibited Items List for passengers on all domestic and international flights.
> 
> Effective November 27, 2017, Transport Canada will prohibit certain powders and granular material with a volume of 350 ml (the size of a soda can) or more at all screening checkpoints in Canada. Prohibited material includes items such as bath salts, sea salt, baby powder, foot powder, cooking powder and sand. Items such as baby formula, protein powder, tea and coffee will still be permitted in any quantity.
> 
> *Consistent with international practice, Transport Canada will also amend the list so that very small knife blades (6 cm or less—about the size of a large paper clip) will not be prohibited on domestic or international flights. To respect our security screening agreement with the United States, knife blades of any length will remain prohibited on flights to the United States through preclearance facilities. Razor blades and box cutters of any size will remain prohibited at all screening checkpoints.*
> 
> Quotes
> 
> “The safety and security of Canadians, the travelling public, and the transportation system are Transport Canada’s top priorities. These changes to screening procedures will bring Canada in line with international standards and our partner countries, while continuing to keep passengers safe. The Government of Canada remains vigilant in continuously assessing security risks.”
> 
> The Honourable Marc Garneau
> Minister of Transport
> 
> Contacts
> 
> Delphine Denis
> Press Secretary
> Office of the Honourable Marc Garneau
> Minister of Transport, Ottawa
> [email protected]
> 613-991-0700
> 
> Media Relations
> Transport Canada, Ottawa
> [email protected]
> 613-993-0055


I suggest that people inundate the Minister's office with e-mails of complaint and also inundate them with phone calls.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Where's Trudeau's campaign against offshore tax dodgers?



> Of the many poses Justin Trudeau has adopted since becoming prime minister, his performance as the defender of “tax fairness” for the middle class has been the most laughable.
> 
> Until it blew up in their faces, Trudeau and Finance Minister Bill Morneau spent weeks portraying small business owners across Canada as corporate fatcats, whom they accused of unfairly taking advantage of tax laws to avoid paying their fair share of the income taxes decent, hard-working, middle-class Canadians pay.
> 
> And yet, through all their ranting, everyone knew that compared to offshore tax havens used by the super-rich to avoid paying taxes in Canada, Trudeau’s small business tax reforms — now downsized in the face of national outrage — were going after, relatively speaking, chump change.


More:



> Rather, Trudeau’s argument was that the tax laws needed to be changed to protect the integrity and fairness of the system for middle-class Canadians, by ensuring all Canadians paid their fair share.
> 
> Surely, a similar argument can be made about offshore tax havens.
> 
> Perhaps that will be Trudeau’s next big, public tax reform crusade.
> 
> But I wouldn’t hold my breath.


<snort> Me, neither.

Say, has anyone seen my sophisticated, Progressive, priapus driving friend Piggy around here lately? He sure do get quiet when the shoe's on t'other foot, don't he...

Soooouuuuiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Dunno. Have to ask a Muslim...
> 
> Hey, CM, question for ya: If it's offside for someone to call her Climate Barbie, on what planet is it OK for her to call people who disagree with her global warming prognostications, Global Warming Deniers? Along with all the negative, holocaust-related implications?
> 
> She's made her bed...


Sorry. What word would you prefer? "Climate Change Deranged"? "Ant-Science Ostrich Types"? "Climate Conspiracy Nuts"?

The word "Denier" does not automatically deliver anyone into the Holocaust Denier camp. Without the "Holocaust", "Denier" is just an adjective. Those who immediately jump to correlating "Climate Change Denier" terminology with the Holocaust are either challenged in the IQ department, or are facetiously creating a controversy that doesn't exist just to try and score political points.

Unless you can point me to a reference where McKenna or the GG have blatantly drawn comparisons with Holocaust Deniers....

Jeebus. Talk about snowflakes.


----------



## FeXL

You need to go learn the history of the term. That is precisely the root.

As far as what to call us, "sceptic" works just fine.

And, any time you feel you can present a cogent argument & not just fling $h!t around like a monkey in the zoo, the GHG Thread is open for educated discussion...



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah, blah...The word "Denier" does not automatically deliver anyone into the Holocaust Denier camp...blah, blah, blah.


----------



## Macfury

CM has experienced nothing but tragic failure there. It's not about the science, it's about political control.



FeXL said:


> And, any time you feel you can present a cogent argument & not just fling $h!t around like a monkey in the zoo, the GHG Thread is open for educated discussion...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> CM has experienced nothing but tragic failure there. It's not about the science, it's about political control.


'Course it is. Just like his gun control arguments. Progs claim over & over & over to be the champions of freedom, yet they are the ones wishing to implement the most control over the population.

The irony is not lost on any of us paying attention. Unfortunately, there are few that are actually paying attention.


----------



## FeXL

Don't know a thing about her but the fact that Coderre is gone gives me a great, big, fat schadenfreude smile.

Valérie Plante elected first female mayor of Montreal



> Valérie Plante has been elected the first female mayor of Montreal in the 2017 municipal elections.
> 
> “Montreal is open for business,” the mayor-elect declared to the large, cheering crowd at the Corona Theatre, in Montreal’s Sud-Ouest borough.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Nice to see Climate Barbie toes the Liberal line & blames staff when a tweet comes back to bite her in the backside.
> 
> Catherine McKenna accidentally praises Syria on Twitter, blames staff for error
> 
> 
> 
> It's always somebody else's fault with these idiots, isn't it?
> 
> Look in the mirror, Barbie. If there's a problem with your staff & you're the staff leader, you're the problem.





CubaMark said:


> Hey, how's that misogynism working out for ya, FeXL?
> 
> XX)





FeXL said:


> Dunno. Have to ask a Muslim...
> 
> Hey, CM, question for ya: If it's offside for someone to call her Climate Barbie, on what planet is it OK for her to call people who disagree with her global warming prognostications, Global Warming Deniers? Along with all the negative, holocaust-related implications?
> 
> She's made her bed...





CubaMark said:


> Sorry. What word would you prefer? "Climate Change Deranged"? "Ant-Science Ostrich Types"? "Climate Conspiracy Nuts"?
> 
> The word "Denier" does not automatically deliver anyone into the Holocaust Denier camp. Without the "Holocaust", "Denier" is just an adjective. Those who immediately jump to correlating "Climate Change Denier" terminology with the Holocaust are either challenged in the IQ department, or are facetiously creating a controversy that doesn't exist just to try and score political points.
> 
> Unless you can point me to a reference where McKenna or the GG have blatantly drawn comparisons with Holocaust Deniers....
> 
> Jeebus. Talk about snowflakes.


I have to agree with CM, referring to the Minister as Barbie is completely misogynistic and derogatory and what FeXL said re: Muslims is derogatory towards a whole group of people and is prejudiced and bigoted. 

Misogyny exists in all cultures, races and faiths. Check out Harvey Winestein or Bill Cosby or Bill Clinton for just a few examples among high powered males. These guys are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to misogyny, the overwhelming vast majority exist under the scrutiny of the media because they are not public figures.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Sorry. What word would you prefer? "Climate Change Deranged"? "Ant-Science Ostrich Types"? "Climate Conspiracy Nuts"?
> 
> The word "Denier" does not automatically deliver anyone into the Holocaust Denier camp. Without the "Holocaust", "Denier" is just an adjective. Those who immediately jump to correlating "Climate Change Denier" terminology with the Holocaust are either challenged in the IQ department, or are facetiously creating a controversy that doesn't exist just to try and score political points.
> 
> Unless you can point me to a reference where McKenna or the GG have blatantly drawn comparisons with Holocaust Deniers....
> 
> Jeebus. Talk about snowflakes.


Sorry but that is the exact intent behind the use of the word. Why waste 70years of an all-out propaganda campaign? Better to co-opt the word for the cause.

FWIW I do not deny the horrific treatment of Jews under the Nazi regime. Lest we forget Poles, Gypsies and homosexuals did not fare any better. However the barbaric treatment of Ernst Zundel for simply questioning certain portions of the Holocaust tale have forced me to delve deeper and my own conclusion is: On the basis of simple math, portions of that tale fail completely. Attacking the man as a denier for pointing that out, strongly suggests that those who perpetuate the narrative, know those portions he questioned to be false. Otherwise they would simply have proven him wrong.

Back to the Global warming corollary of that statement. Sea level is supposed to be rising at unprecedented levels according to the alarmist tales. That would mean they have to average more than 10mm a year. Yet over the past 110 years the real rise has been less than 2mm per year, and as near as anyone can determine, rate of rise has been slightly reduced since the turn of the century. Of course anyone who points that out is called a 'denier', and if the alarmists have their way would be facing jail time.

Yep the word 'denier' is being used because of the effective propaganda campaign that created it, for its association with that campaign, and for exactly the same reasons. The narrative of the believers is simply too shaky to withstand careful scrutiny.


----------



## FeXL

Good. You can agree or disagree with anyone you want. Hair on ya.

Here are the facts. How do I know? 'Cause I'm thinking I know me just a little bit better than anybody on these boards, _especially_ the armchair shrinks out there.

1) As far as misogyny towards Climate Barbie, no. Misogyny means hatred, dislike, prejudice against women. Nope.

2) As far as "Climate Barbie" is derogatory, yep. So is "Climate Denier". Tit for tat, as it were...

3) As far as my observation about Muslims is concerned, I apologize to _all_ of you who do not oppress, treat as commodities, beat, sexually assault, rape, genitally mutilate, kill, force to clothe from head to toe, not allow to drive, not allow to walk anywhere outside their home alone, child bride, consider a woman's testimony as half that of a man, engage in polygamy, female infanticide (there are more but I'm running short on my 10,000 character limit) your women.



screature said:


> I have to agree with CM, referring to the Minister as Barbie is completely misogynistic and derogatory and what FeXL said re: Muslims is derogatory towards a whole group of people and is prejudiced and bigoted.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Good. You can agree or disagree with anyone you want. Hair on ya.
> 
> Here are the facts. How do I know? 'Cause I'm thinking I know me just a little bit better than anybody on these boards, _especially_ the armchair shrinks out there.
> 
> *1) As far as misogyny towards Climate Barbie, no. Misogyny means hatred, dislike, prejudice against women. Nope.*
> 
> *2) As far as "Climate Barbie" is derogatory, yep. So is "Climate Denier". Tit for tat, as it were...*
> 
> 3) As far as my observation about Muslims is concerned, I apologize to _all_ of you who do not oppress, treat as commodities, beat, sexually assault, rape, genitally mutilate, kill, force to clothe from head to toe, not allow to drive, not allow to walk anywhere outside their home alone, child bride, consider a woman's testimony as half that of a man, engage in polygamy, female infanticide (there are more but I'm running short on my 10,000 character limit) your women.


Ok riddle me this? What is a Barbie? She is a doll, a "pretty doll". She is an inanimate object with no brain. 

Here is the Oxford definition of misogyny:



> *misogyny*
> 
> noun
> 
> *Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.*
> ‘she felt she was struggling against thinly disguised misogyny’


So you clearly express "Dislike of, contempt" for a woman. Possibly not for women in general, I do not know what your feelings are toward women in general, but by your use of that term I suspect it may not be great. If you or anyone really respected women in general, they would not use that term to describe any woman. But I have to agree that misogyny was inappropriately applied by CM and myself.

At least you admit the term was derogatory. You however created a false equivalence, you referred to a specific person, she referred to a group of people of which you are one and unabashedly so called Climate Change Deniers. I do not know why you would see that as derogatory because it simply addresses a group of people who do exist and you are one of them. So it is not "tit for tat" (a not at all surprising irony there). You were specially derogatory towards her by your own admission. She was speaking of a group of people that do exist and you are one of them. She did not mention you FeXL specifically. You have no problem grouping all Muslims together as if the were all of one mind, so why should you take offense of the term Climate Deniers when you are clearly one of that group of people?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> At least you admit the term was derogatory. You however created a false equivalence, you referred to a specific person, she referred to a group of people of which you are one and unabashedly so called Climate Change Deniers. I do not know why you would see that as derogatory because it simply addresses a group of people who do exist and you are one of them.


It's disrespectful, because it implies the correctness of their own assumptions. If you don't believe in ghosts, it doesn't make you a Ghost Denier, as you don't believe there are any ghosts to deny.


----------



## wonderings

screature said:


> Ok riddle me this? What is a Barbie? She is a doll, a "pretty doll". She is an inanimate object with no brain.


While the doll is an inanimate object, the doll is the representation of a woman and hardly a dumb woman at that. Throughout the years Barbie has been:
Architect
Astronaut
Computer engineer
Game developer
Palaeontologist
SeaWorld trainer
Army Medic
Paratrooper
United States Air Force Pilot
United States Air Force Thunderbirds
United States Marine Corps Sergeant
United States President (2000)
Presidential candidate (Barbie for President 1992[3], 2004[7], 2008 & 2012)
UNICEF Ambassador
and many many other things.

I guess you can choose to see it as you wish. But really, if you can't handle some online name calling maybe you should be avoiding social media. I would say the same to Trump as well who clearly cannot let things go.


----------



## screature

wonderings said:


> While the doll is an inanimate object, the doll is the representation of a woman and hardly a dumb woman at that. Throughout the years Barbie has been:
> Architect
> Astronaut
> Computer engineer
> Game developer
> Palaeontologist
> SeaWorld trainer
> Army Medic
> Paratrooper
> United States Air Force Pilot
> United States Air Force Thunderbirds
> United States Marine Corps Sergeant
> United States President (2000)
> Presidential candidate (Barbie for President 1992[3], 2004[7], 2008 & 2012)
> UNICEF Ambassador
> and many many other things.
> 
> I guess you can choose to see it as you wish. But really, if you can't handle some online name calling maybe you should be avoiding social media. I would say the same to Trump as well who clearly cannot let things go.


That is too funny, no matter what, she is an inanimate object with no brain, THAT is the implication.

As far as, "if you can't handle some online name calling maybe you should be avoiding social media." off course I can it doesn't mean that I cannot freely express my opinion.

People get called out all the time on social media for inappropriate comments so I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

My goodness there are some good laughs here at times. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Climate Barbie suggests to me a person with prepackaged notions of climate. Pull the string and out come sound bites.


----------



## eMacMan

screature said:


> so why should you take offense of the term Climate Deniers when you are clearly one of that group of people?


Clearly time to define the term "Climate Change Denier". 

True believers claim prior to 1973 there was no climate change for at least 5000 years and anything before that does not count as climate change. Based on those absurd assumptions they claim that post 1973 the planet is suddenly warming at a cataclysmic rate. They offer as proof computer models based on the assumption that the planet is warming at a cataclysmic rate.

Climate skeptics recognize that from about 18000 years ago to 5000 years ago, Continental ice sheets over 2 miles thick melted as the planet warmed. Sea levels rose by well over 100 meters. They also recognize that the past 5000 years have been unusually stable with three optimum periods. The last one was the Medieval Optimum when temps and sea levels were a bit higher than today. They also recognize cooling periods such as the more recent Maunder Minimum and Mini Ice-Age. They've looked at the numbers and see the planet has been gradually warming since the end of the Mini Ice-Age and that sea levels have been rising by about 2mm/year in that period. They also recognize that post mid 70s sea level rise has remained static as has the rate of temperature increase. The only thing they deny is the CAGW narrative.

So whom is the real climate change denier???? I would dare to suggest it is the true believers.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> It's disrespectful, because it implies the correctness of their own assumptions. If you don't believe in ghosts, it doesn't make you a Ghost Denier, as you don't believe there are any ghosts to deny.


That is pure semantic hogwash and you as an intelligent man should know that. Also it is just a fact that there are Climate Change Deniers, both you and FeXL belong to that group.

Next you are most probably going to say you don't support any given group and that may be true, but in statistical terms if you were asked if you believe in Climate Change, you may say yes or no, but based on your posts you do not believe that humans have a roll to play.

So like taking a Census you do not belong to any specific group, but you do fit into the general category of those who do not either believe that climate change is real and/or human beings do not contribute to it.


----------



## screature

eMacMan said:


> Clearly time to define the term "Climate Change Denier".
> 
> True believers claim prior to 1973 there was no climate change for at least 5000 years and suddenly the planet is warming at a cataclysmic rate. They offer as proof computer models based on the assumption that the planet is warming at a cataclysmic rate.
> 
> Climate skeptics recognize that from about 18000 years ago to 5000 years ago, Continental ice sheets over 2 miles thick melted as the planet warmed. Sea levels rose by well over 100 meters. They also recognize that the past 5000 years have been unusually stable with three optimum periods. The last one was the Medieval Optimum when temps and sea levels were a bit higher than today. They also recognize cooling periods such as the more recent Maunder Minimum and Mini Ice-Age. They've looked at the numbers and see the planet has been gradually warming since the end of the Mini Ice-Age and that sea levels have been rising by about 2mm/year in that period. They also recognize that post mid 70s sea level rise has remained static as has the rate of temperature increase. The only thing the deny is the CAGW narrative.
> 
> So whom is the real climate change denier???? I would dare to suggest it is the true believers.


We are not talking about 1973. We are talking about the here and now. At any rate this is all simply a red herring to avoid talking about calling the Minister a Barbie.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> Climate Barbie suggests to me a person with prepackaged notions of climate. Pull the string and out come sound bites.


Yep that sounds about right from you.

Look I don't like the Minister of the current Government either. But it is only a reflection of the person making those demeaning comments and really has little to to do with the person being demeaned. It is just another form of bullying of which I have plenty of first hand experience.

It sounds like you and FeXL were the guys in grade school calling anyone they didn't like any manner of demeaning and insulting names. I would have thought that grown intelligent men would have out grown those childish tendencies.


----------



## FeXL

Jeezuz...all you armchair shrinks.

1) I have nothing but utter disdain for anybody (male, female, or otherwise) who believes in the Globull Warming narrative. 

Period. 

Does that mean I'm also misandrous? Or merely misanthropic?

2) Any minister who would blame "staff", real or otherwise, for a Tweet going out praising Syria for _anything_ is a complete & utter idiot & doesn't deserve the position they're in. She should have immediately apologized & taken responsibility. She didn't. She played the blame game.

Period.

Does that mean I'm misogynous or merely can't stand people, _especially_ politicians, who won't take responsibility? To the best of my recollection I spread my criticism of politicians, male & female, across the spectrum, fairly liberally. Nobody is above it. I read/hear of something stupid or irresponsible, they're a target.

I've been calling The Hairdo names for years now, ever since he got elected, & hardly a word from anybody. I bring up "Climate Barbie" & now suddenly everybody's up in arms? What kind of a double standard is that? In addition, where's the criticism for those who had choice names for Harper when he was PM & now for Trump? Again, why the double standard?



screature said:


> So you clearly express "Dislike of, contempt" for a woman.


Well, it's hardly intended as praise. 



screature said:


> At least you admit the term was derogatory.


So yer telling me that it's OK for her to paint a bunch of people with a derogatory term 'cause we're all anonymous? What the hell kind of logic is that? Ain't buyin' it. Derogatory terms are derogatory terms, whether they're applied to an individual in person or at length to an anonymous group.

I was just chastised for suggesting that, in order to find out about misogyny, one should ask a Muslim. Using your logic that should have been fine 'cause I didn't mention anyone in particular. Which is it?

Do disparaging remarks apply to anonymous individuals in a group or not?



screature said:


> You however created a false equivalence, you referred to a specific person, she referred to a group of people of which you are one and unabashedly so called Climate Change Deniers.


----------



## FeXL

Bull$h!t. We are both climate change sceptics. As are others on these boards.

Nobody in their right mind denies that climate changes and has done so since day 1. 

The question is how much, if any, is mankind responsible for.



screature said:


> Also it is just a fact that there are Climate Change Deniers, both you and FeXL belong to that group.


----------



## FeXL

You don't know $h!t about me & I'm going to go out on a limb & say the same for MF.

In grade school I was bullied because my parents always told me to turn the other cheek. I was big enough & strong enough to deal with it but I always walked away. The very first time I'd finally had enough & fought back, in grade 5, the bullying stopped immediately. It picked up again in junior high a bit, I fought back once, & it stopped permanently.

That said, none of that has anything to do with me giving politicians a hard time. They've earned every bit of it. If a nickname is the worst that life ever delivers to Climate Barbie she's had it pretty easy.



screature said:


> It sounds like you and FeXL were the guys in grade school calling anyone they didn't like any manner of demeaning and insulting names.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> Jeezuz...all you armchair shrinks.
> 
> *1) I have nothing but utter disdain for anybody (male, female, or otherwise) who believes in the Globull Warming narrative.*
> 
> Period.
> 
> *Does that mean I'm also misandrous? Or merely misanthropic?*
> 
> 2) Any minister who would blame "staff", real or otherwise, for a Tweet going out praising Syria for _anything_ is a complete & utter idiot & doesn't deserve the position they're in. She should have immediately apologized & taken responsibility. She didn't. She played the blame game.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Does that mean I'm misogynous or merely can't stand people, _especially_ politicians, who won't take responsibility? To the best of my recollection I spread my criticism of politicians, male & female, across the spectrum, fairly liberally. Nobody is above it. I read/hear of something stupid or irresponsible, they're a target.
> 
> I've been calling The Hairdo names for years now, ever since he got elected, & hardly a word from anybody. I bring up "Climate Barbie" & now suddenly everybody's up in arms? What kind of a double standard is that? In addition, where's the criticism for those who had choice names for Harper when he was PM & now for Trump? Again, why the double standard?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it's hardly intended as praise.
> 
> 
> 
> So yer telling me that it's OK for her to paint a bunch of people with a derogatory term 'cause we're all anonymous? What the hell kind of logic is that? Ain't buyin' it. Derogatory terms are derogatory terms, whether they're applied to an individual in person or at length to an anonymous group.
> 
> I was just chastised for suggesting that, in order to find out about misogyny, one should ask a Muslim. Using your logic that should have been fine 'cause I didn't mention anyone in particular. Which is it?
> 
> Do disparaging remarks apply to anonymous individuals in a group or not?


What the hell is this supposed to mean? Do you fear that others may think of you as such? I never used those terms and I also said that I was in error referring to you as misogynistic.

Beyond that your response was totally anticipated. You didn't say anything that I already didn't know. It seems that your chain is easily yanked.

You like to run off in all directions whenever your posts are called into question, so keep on keeping on FeXL, your posts make for great light entertainment.

Was that meant as a joke or meant to be demeaning? You decide.


----------



## screature

FeXL said:


> You don't know $h!t about me & I'm going to go out on a limb & say the same for MF.
> 
> In grade school I was bullied because my parents always told me to turn the other cheek. I was big enough & strong enough to deal with it but I always walked away. The very first time I'd finally had enough & fought back, in grade 5, the bullying stopped immediately. It picked up again in junior high a bit, I fought back once, & it stopped permanently.
> 
> That said, none of that has anything to do with me giving politicians a hard time. They've earned every bit of it. If a nickname is the worst that life ever delivers to Climate Barbie she's had it pretty easy.


Well it seems you didn't learn anything from being bullied other than to confront violence with violence. Based on your posts, it seems that you still feel the same today. You really seem to be still stuck in the 5th grade with your posts here.

On ehMac you have become the bully and you like it. I suspect it extends into other aspects of your life since you are a "big guy" now and able to defend yourself and bully others with your physical size.

You are the only member of ehMac that has threatened another ehMac member that I can think of. You remember groovetube don't you? And how you threatened to pay him a _*"visit"*_ That was a long time ago now but I still remember. You can try to deny the fact but it is still here in the records. You were bullied and so you became a bully in self defense. It is not surprising but often people grow out of that. It seems you have not.

Are you getting pissed off now? Do you want to hurt me? Just tell me so, I will give you my address and you can come and pay me a_* visit.*_ I will be ready and waiting with open arms.


----------



## Macfury

Good grief, what drama. FeXL was certainly prepared to give someone a piece of his mind if they ever met. Conflating it with violence is way over the top.


----------



## Macfury

Like FeXL, I've said over and over that climate changes and everything, more or less, will affect climate. That includes beavers building dams, and buffalo eating prairie grass. The question remains whether humans have a significant and harmful effect on climate. I believe that the effect is minimal and manageable. Also that the costs associated with grand plans to control climate will result in little to no benefit and cost trillions.



screature said:


> That is pure semantic hogwash and you as an intelligent man should know that. Also it is just a fact that there are Climate Change Deniers, both you and FeXL belong to that group.
> 
> Next you are most probably going to say you don't support any given group and that may be true, but in statistical terms if you were asked if you believe in Climate Change, you may say yes or no, but based on your posts you do not believe that humans have a roll to play.
> 
> So like taking a Census you do not belong to any specific group, but you do fit into the general category of those who do not either believe that climate change is real and/or human beings do not contribute to it.


----------



## Macfury

Entirely the opposite. As a kid, I used to defend others who were bullied at significant cost to myself. As an adult, I simply don't think such things are important, either directed at me or other adults. Grow a thicker skin.



screature said:


> Yep that sounds about right from you.
> 
> Look I don't like the Minister of the current Government either. But it is only a reflection of the person making those demeaning comments and really has little to to do with the person being demeaned. It is just another form of bullying of which I have plenty of first hand experience.
> 
> It sounds like you and FeXL were the guys in grade school calling anyone they didn't like any manner of demeaning and insulting names. I would have thought that grown intelligent men would have out grown those childish tendencies.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Good grief, what drama. FeXL was certainly prepared to give someone a piece of his mind if they ever met. Conflating it with violence is way over the top.


C'mon, now. Screature has already proven beyond a reasonable doubt that words are violence... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Whoosh...



screature said:


> What the hell is this supposed to mean?


Like, totally?



screature said:


> Beyond that your response was totally anticipated.


Good. Then you understand _why_ she's getting dogged.



screature said:


> You didn't say anything that I already didn't know.


Why?



screature said:


> It seems that your chain is easily yanked.


What "all directions"? I pointed out a couple reasons why I was dogging her. I asked a question about the hypocrisy of peoples' silence on the name-calling of politically right persons. I pointed out the error in your logic.

Pretty confusing, all right...



screature said:


> You like to run off in all directions whenever your posts are called into question...


Don't care.



screature said:


> Was that meant as a joke or meant to be demeaning? You decide.


----------



## FeXL

Finally! :clap: You actually got something correct.

I've noted it before: I won't be shut down by anybody on these boards & I won't let bull$h!t stand.



screature said:


> You really seem to be still stuck in the 5th grade with your posts here.


How? Because I stand up & defend what I believe in? Pretty horrible thing to do, isn't it? However, don't mistake someone who is opinionated & outspoken as a bully. 

Once again, I give what I get. Yer civil to me, I'm civil back. You climb down my throat, it's coming back tenfold. Don't like the tone of my responses to you? Change yours.

Take a look around these boards. Read my responses to SINC, MF, Beej, Rps, eMacMan. They are polite & civil, if not somewhat pointed at times. Why? 'Cause that's how they respond to me. Some bully.

On the other hand you've got CM who openly admits to being a hypocrite in his treatment of me, never misses a chance to get his digs in & has a history of hostility towards me. He gets what he gives. Freddie, who is the first to revert to less than civil discourse. When he's good, he's fine. When he gets ugly, he gets it right back. And most recently, yourself, who is crawling down my neck. We used to have civil discussions. I don't know what changed. But I'm not going to sit here & have you erroneously armchair analyze me without a response, either. 



screature said:


> On ehMac you have become the bully and you like it.


Yep. Beat the hell outta the ol' lady every Saturday night (I call it foreplay), the chillens daily & I kick the cat whenever I can get close enough. He's gettin' pretty cautious these days so most times I gotta sneak up & give the litter box a boot when he's inside. I also walk down the middle of the sidewalk & swing at everybody in my reach. And don't even talk about my driving habits. That ol' 'Burb looks like a pinball going down the street. You'd think it was an Islamic terrorist at the wheel...



screature said:


> I suspect it extends into other aspects of your life since you are a "big guy" now and able to defend yourself and bully others with your physical size.


Little Drummer Boy? Yeah, I remember the liar. I asked him something along the lines of "what if I visited"? Pretty far from "I'm going to fly to Tranna purely to kick your butt", no?

I deny nothing. Why would I? I never threatened violence, especially on a public board. In the first place I'm not that stupid and in the second I couldn't be bothered.



screature said:


> You are the only member of ehMac that has threatened another ehMac member that I can think of. You remember groovetube don't you? And how you threatened to pay him a _*"visit"*_ That was a long time ago now but I still remember. You can try to deny the fact but it is still here in the records.


Wow. Right from the mouth of Dr. Screature. I responded twice in 12-1/2 years of school. That's _some_ history of bullying. You got a consulting service there, Doc? I know a few people on these boards who could use a good laugh...



screature said:


> You were bullied and so you became a bully in self defense. It is not surprising but often people grow out of that. It seems you have not.


Yep. Shaking. With laughter. :lmao::lmao::lmao: Jeezuz. Get over yourself Screature...



screature said:


> Are you getting pissed off now? Do you want to hurt me? Just tell me so, I will give you my address and you can come and pay me a_* visit.*_ I will be ready and waiting with open arms.


----------



## Macfury

> Originally Posted by *screature*
> 
> Are you getting pissed off now? Do you want to hurt me? Just tell me so, I will give you my address and you can come and pay me a visit. I will be ready and waiting with open arms.





FeXL said:


> Get over yourself Screature...


When I was in Calgary recently, I got i touch with FeXL. He threatened me with the offer of a pint of artisanal microbrew.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> When I was in Calgary recently, I got i touch with FeXL. He threatened me with the offer of a pint of artisanal microbrew.


Yep, if ya go for a beer with the guy, he's a real threat. Knows way too much about good beer. Hell, any beer for that matter.


----------



## SINC

Western alienation? Yep. Count on it. And Trudeau is fanning the flames.

Rona Ambrose: 'Western Alienation' Is Real And It's Dangerous


----------



## FeXL

So, don't know anything about the efficacy of vaping but it seems to me that if it's even marginally effective at stopping people from smoking, win/win.

The Crackdown on the Vaping Community



> With the introduction of the Ontario Liberal government’s marijuana retail legislation, this government has triggered *a heavy crackdown on the vaping community and introduced further prohibitions on tobacco harm reduction products.*


h/t SDA, from whence comes this prescient observation (from Neo at HoM):



> meanwhile, *pm selfie is facilitating the sale of weed*
> to teenagers. the government just doesn't want any
> competition as it transitions to being the continent's
> *biggest dope dealer*.


Links' bold.

Yep.

What could possibly go wrong...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

While we're on the topic...

Finance Minister Bill Morneau gets low ratings in new poll



> Finance Minister Bill Morneau is getting low performance ratings and many Canadians want him to step aside as the Trudeau government faces a crisis of credibility over whether its economic policies are helping low- and middle-income Canadians, according to a new opinion poll.
> 
> A substantial majority of Canadians also say conflict-of-interest laws should be rewritten to require all federal cabinet ministers to divest assets and put them in a blind trust.


h/t SDA, from whence comes this comment:



> Morneau forms a private company in Ontario to own a private company in Alberta to own shares in his family company and pays his wife to "manage" that single share holding and then calls small business owners loop-hole benefiting tax cheaters.
> 
> The reaction by the Liberal Party? Outrage, that voters would question his motives.


Yep.

BONOKOSKI: Trudeau Liberals have lost control of their narrative



> Poor Kate Purchase, director of communications in the Prime Minister’s Office of Justin Trudeau.
> 
> Grey hairs must be popping out of her head like weeds in an untended garden as her team flails away trying to repair the irreparable damage of unforced errors and illusions.
> 
> This, after all, is not the best of days for the Trudeau Liberals, in both reality and optics.


Liberals have a ‘credibility gap,’ Bronfman, Morneau obscuring Grits’ message to fight for middle class, say pollsters, political observers 



> The federal Liberals are being weighed down by a credibility problem, say pollsters and a former Liberal cabinet minister and their message of fighting for the middle class is getting undermined by a series of controversies tied to taxation and finance.


Canada deporting fewer people for terrorism, war crimes, crime



> The number of foreign citizens deported for security, crime, organized crime and international human rights abuses has dropped by about a third since 2014, according to Canada Border Services Agency figures.
> 
> During that same period, the number awaiting deportation on those grounds has more than doubled to 1,164. They include 20 ordered deported on security grounds and 35 for organized crime.
> *
> In effect, the number of non-Canadians deemed by the government to be too dangerous to remain in the country has gone up but the number being successfully deported has gone down.*


M'bold.

Oh, gee, there's a surprise...

Canada government facing resistance from Senate over pot law



> The Canadian government’s plan to legalize recreational marijuana by next July could be in jeopardy, with opposition brewing among some in the Senate and concerns that the deadline to pass the bill is rapidly approaching.
> 
> The Senate’s approval is needed to pass laws though it does not often block bills passed by the elected House of Commons. Some senators say police need more time to prepare and also oppose setting the federal age of legal use at 18.
> 
> Legalizing marijuana for recreational use was part of Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s 2015 election campaign and the government has set a relatively quick deadline to put it in place. Canada would be the first Group of Seven country to allow the drug nationally.
> 
> The legislation is not expected to reach the upper house until December and some senators have said they will take as long as they need to review it.
> 
> That could put Trudeau and the upper house of parliament at loggerheads again. Senators, who are not elected, recently delayed the government’s budget bill before ultimately passing it.


I'd love to see the Senators kibosh the whole thing.

Canada's PM Justin Trudeau sabotages Trans-Pacific Partnership, shocking leaders 



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau sabotaged the endorsement of a pact to salvage a multibillion-dollar, 11-nation Pacific Rim trade deal at the last minute, surprising leaders of the other nations, including Australia's Malcolm Turnbull.
> 
> But amid confusion and drama on the sidelines of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Vietnam, trade ministers issued a statement saying all 11 countries had agreed to continue negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership and "core elements" of the deal had been reached, while more work to be done.


Drama from the substitute drama teacher?

Shocka... 

Related:

FUREY: Trudeau’s progressive agenda causes cracks in his trade deals strategy



> On Friday morning Canadians awoke to reports in Australian media that Trudeau had personally “sabotaged” and “screwed” world leaders by pulling a no-show at an important Trans-Pacific Partnership deal meeting.
> 
> Trudeau “infuriated leaders of 10 other Asia-Pacific countries by pulling a sudden ‘no show’ for the signing of a lucrative trade deal,” notes a story by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, continuing that “after a lengthy delay, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe entered the room to announce the signing was off because Mr. Trudeau would not attend.”


Justin Trudeau accused of 'sabotaging' trade deal with meeting no-show



> The strange journey of the resurrected Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal got a little stranger Friday, with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau being accused of “sabotaging” the deal by missing a crucial meeting in Vietnam.
> 
> The newspaper The Australian published a story Friday about Canada’s no-show at the meeting, accompanied by a tweet saying Trudeau “infuriates world leaders, embarrasses host nation.” The Sydney Morning Herald reported that Canadian “sabotage,” was “shocking” to world leaders.


Guess they wouldn't cave to his social justice issues. Poor Juthdin... 

Further on Climate Barbie.

GOLDSTEIN: Catherine McKenna, #ClimateCrusader!



> It was, declared Environment and Climate Change Minister Catherine McKenna with the equivalent of a Twitter shrug, “a mistake.”
> 
> The mistake being that Canada, through her ministry, had just tweeted its congratulations to Syria for signing the Paris climate accord in a Twitter account that features a smiling McKenna as its avatar.


GOLDSTEIN: What’s really dumb? Trudeau’s carbon pricing plan



> A trick politicians use to intimidate us on the subject of human-influenced climate change is to leap from the fact that because scientists say it is real, we must support whatever they propose to address it.
> 
> This is absurd. How to address human-influenced climate change involves economic policies that are political decisions, not scientific ones.
> 
> *And the fact is that much of what our politicians are implementing, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s national carbon pricing plan being a case in point, is nonsense.*


M'bold.

Yep.

GUNTER: Trudeau needs to fight this Khadr copycat lawsuit



> A lawsuit filed Monday in an Ontario court by an Edmonton lawyer representing an Algerian national, will be *an even greater test of the Trudeau government’s sanity *than was the government’s ludicrous $10.5-million settlement this past summer of a similar lawsuit initiated by Omar Khadr.
> 
> At least Khadr was a citizen. Djamel Ameziane was never more than a refugee claimant who lived temporarily in Montreal nearly 20 years ago.


M'bold.

<snort>

Oh, Shiny Libranos!



> ANOTHER $200 FINE COMING RIGHT UP;
> 
> Two generations of Liberal fundraisers -- Stephen Bronfman and his 88-year-old retired senator godfather Leo Kolber -- are tied together in a complex offshore structure that amassed $60 million (U.S.) in a tax haven beyond the reach of tax collectors in Canada, Israel and the U.S., a newly leaked trove of documents reveal.
> 
> Buried in the Paradise Papers, a massive leak to the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung and the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, which includes the Toronto Star and CBC/Radio-Canada, are more than 5,000 pages of internal records detailing how the Bronfmans and Kolbers invested in Israel through two offshore trust funds in the Cayman Islands.
> 
> It was a two-family affair: Stephen Bronfman personally lent millions to the Cayman trust that handled his family's investments in Israel, run by Leo Kolber's son, Jonathan, 55.


Ottawa proposing legal weed tax of at least $1 per gram, plus GST/HST



> *Ottawa and the provinces and territories could have another $1 billion a year in tax revenues to split after pot becomes legal next year.*
> 
> Liberal MP Bill Blair, former Toronto police chief and the Trudeau government’s point man on legalizing marijuana, made public Friday the federal tax proposal for legal pot, kicking off a period of public consultations that ends Dec. 7.


M'bold.

What it's actually all about...

Rex Murphy: Governor General appoints herself umpire of questions of faith and science



> Delight in one’s own intellectual capacity is a delusion both frequent and foolish, and the desire to have others share in that rapture is almost always a disappointment. That we are all partisans for our own opinions is of course a truism, as is the consideration that opinions, particularly political ones, many times follow just as much from temperament as from reason. There is no Ideal Reasoner, and the truth of some questions is always a quarry and never a capture. That is why our finest sages, present and past, have always counselled against certitude, and cautioned that when we are most certain of something is precisely the time we should go over our sums.
> 
> Our recently minted Governor General, in one of her inaugural appearances, has been very quick off the mark to make her declarative presence known. She gave a talk at a science conference this week, a speech notable for its confident strength of assertion and readiness to pronounce determinatively on matters large and trivial, and which was unfortunately inflected with a tone of condescension that will do little to buttress the appeal of the mainly ceremonial office she now inhabits.


Rex Murphy: There is no company Liberals will not keep in pursuit of climate action



> From McKenna’s Twitter feed came this curious? odd? startling? inexplicable? effusion: “Canada salutes Nicaragua and Syria for joining on to the Paris Agreement!” Note the exclamation mark, high signal of enthusiasm and approval.
> 
> It took but minutes for this tweet to generate a near universal outcry of puzzlement and wonder. Outside of North Korea, which has also signed on to the Paris Accord, Syria has the most despicable and murderous government in the world. What in Heaven’s name was the Minister of Environment and Climate Change up to, offering effusive congratulations to Bashar al-Assad?
> 
> And what in Heaven’s name can Bashar al-Assad offer to the oft-invoked “climate community” that has our tranquil nation saluting him? Has he promised to cut back fighter jet traffic in the bombing of his own citizens? Does displacing some two to three million Syrian citizens count in some sadistic way in cutting back on Syria’s carbon emissions? Has he pledged to cut back on the gas attack emissions?


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse enclosed inside.

Damned if you do...

Toronto: Muslim worker dies when hijab gets stuck in conveyor belt



> _A commercial bakery in Toronto where a 23-year-old employee died just over a year ago was fined $300,000 Thursday for violating the Occupational Health and Safety Act.
> 
> Ontario labour ministry issues 6 orders against Toronto food company after young worker dies._​


More:



> _The incident occurred back on Sept. 2, 2016 at the Fiera Foods plant at 50 Marmora Street in Toronto. A 23-year-old female employee who had been sent to the facility by a temp agency and had only been on the job for three weeks was wearing a hijab that was loose at the ends._​


Further:



> If they didn’t allow the hijabi to work on the line they would have been sued and wrongly called Islamophobic. Now, rather than banning the hijab and other head coverings near this type of machinery, the government will further burden employers and fine them.


And damned if you don't...


----------



## FeXL

Hey, where my Priapus driving buddy, Piggy, at?

Do you like this picture?



> Public Works spent $555,272 on this building wrap on the old Canada Post office in downtown Ottawa, including $82,000 on the design alone.


Soooooouuuuuuuiiiiiieeeee!!!


----------



## FeXL

I jes' luvs watching the left trying to organize a Charlie Foxtrot and ending up with a Tango Golf Foxtrot...

Rob Shaw: Liberals, Greens failure to co-operate lets NDP pass bad laws



> B.C.’s New Democrat government is watching most of its bills sail unchanged through its first session of the legislature, in part because the province’s two opposition parties can’t — or won’t — work together to accomplish anything.
> 
> Changes to the province’s lobbying rules late last week provided the perfect example of the distrustful and dysfunctional relationship that’s built up between the B.C. Liberals and Greens.


Idiots, the lot of 'em.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada to watch from the sidelines amid 'extraordinary times' in global energy markets



> Two major trends are unfolding in global oil and gas markets, but Canada seems unable to take advantage of the first one, and is already an unfortunate casualty of the other, says a new report.
> 
> First, the world’s energy demand will rise the equivalent of China and India’s current energy consumption over the next three decades — but Canada has limited direct conduits to connect those energy-hungry markets to its store of the world’s third-largest oil reserves.
> 
> The second development, which has already dented the Canadian oilpatch, is the rise of U.S. tight oil and gas that is taking dollars and focus away from the Western Canadian industry.


Excellent read.


----------



## Macfury

Folk festivals?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on that whole "get rid of coal" BS, plus Climate Barbie in the news again.

Oh, & not just in Bonn...

GOLDSTEIN: Liberals blowing hot air in Bonn



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau wants to divert public attention away from the embarrassing reality Canada is far behind fulfilling his 2015 Paris climate accord commitments to reduce our industrial greenhouse gases (GHG) emissions linked to climate change.
> 
> That’s why Climate Change Minister Catherine McKenna is declaring a “war on coal,” in conjunction with the U.K., at this week’s annual United Nations’ gabfest on climate change in Bonn, Germany.
> 
> That the Trudeau Liberals are posing as world leaders on getting rid of coal to produce electricity — the top source of industrial GHG emissions globally — is absurd.


----------



## SINC

This ought to be required reading for Trudeau and the Liberals:

France ran out of money last Tuesday — and within days, so will the rest of Europe | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## SINC

Well, well, lookie here, just in time for the Liberal launch on July 1, 2018.

Colorado doctors claim first marijuana overdose death | 9news.com


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Well, well, lookie here, just in time for the Liberal launch on July 1, 2018.
> 
> Colorado doctors claim first marijuana overdose death | 9news.com


An 11 month old baby?

This is not a story about the dangers of Marijuana its a story about parental negligence...


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Well, well, lookie here, just in time for the Liberal launch on July 1, 2018.
> 
> Colorado doctors claim first marijuana overdose death | 9news.com


*Well.... there's a bit more to the story here....*

_Other doctors are deeply skeptical of the strong language used in the report.

“That statement is too much. It’s too much as far as I’m concerned,” said Dr. Noah Kaufman, an emergency medicine specialist based in Northern Colorado. “Because that is saying confidently that this is the first case. ‘We’ve got one!’ And I still disagree with that.”

It’s widely accepted as fact that marijuana overdoses are not fatal. The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration fact sheet on pot says simply that “no death from overdose of marijuana has been reported” and the National Institutes of Health says there is “insufficient evidence” to link THC overdose to fatalities.

The claim that an overdose death happened in Colorado has the potential to change the way people think about the steady march toward marijuana legalization in the US._​


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Well, well, lookie here, just in time for the Liberal launch on July 1, 2018.
> 
> Colorado doctors claim first marijuana overdose death | 9news.com





smashedbanana said:


> An 11 month old baby?
> 
> This is not a story about the dangers of Marijuana its a story about parental negligence...


Lets see. About 60,000 opioid deaths in the US every year. Another 480,000 smoking death in the US annually. Another 75,000 non-traffic alcohol related deaths on the soused side of the border. Yet Don who has made his anti-Cannabis views well known can come up with but a single instance of a cannabis OD death and that is an incredible stretch at that. 

Sorry Don but that approach is not advancing your cause in the slightest.


----------



## Macfury

I wouldn't recommend anyone smoke the stuff, but deadliness is not its major attribute.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I wouldn't recommend anyone smoke the stuff, but deadliness is not its major attribute.


I have zero desire to smell the crap either. 

OTOH I am reaching an age where some of the medical aspects could be very useful especially when compared to the Big Pharma equivalents. As a plus ingestion seems to be a lot better than smoking when talking medicinal.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Lets see. About 60,000 opioid deaths in the US every year. Another 480,000 smoking death in the US annually. Another 75,000 non-traffic alcohol related deaths on the soused side of the border. Yet Don who has made his anti-Cannabis views well known can come up with but a single instance of a cannabis OD death and that is an incredible stretch at that.
> 
> Sorry Don but that approach is not advancing your cause in the slightest.


Ah, that may be Bob, but give them time. Cannabis caused traffic fatalities will soon outnumber alcohol related traffic deaths. Probably already have been for years, but law enforcement have had no way to catch them by proving they were high. Even the new NDP laws on the subject are now suspect as to the validity of the blood tests.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Ah, that may be Bob, but give them time. Cannabis caused traffic fatalities will soon outnumber alcohol related traffic deaths. Probably already have been for years, but law enforcement have had no way to catch them by proving they were high. Even the new NDP laws on the subject are now suspect as to the validity of the blood tests.


I think this just makes common sense. We do not have a legally proven method that is easily deliverable to test for cannabis impairment. This is like “old age” or H.I.V., no one has really died from these.....it is just a failure somewhere else in the body. Stoners probably have died from their actions but we haven’t found a way to capture it for the record. What is an upcoming threat is the “mix” of cannabis and other drugs into a delivery of a super high. And while we can capture alcohol drinkers, many drinkers take responsible care when drinking and driving ( yes we have abusers ) the difference to me is in the vernacular used....stoners always talk about being wasted.....


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

CRA identifies gold mine



> PayPal ordered to disclose Canadian business account information to CRA
> 
> _Online payments company PayPal has been ordered to hand over information about its Canadian business account holders to the Canada Revenue Agency._​
> Grandma sold her knitted socks online, bust that tax fraud!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> CRA identifies gold mine


FeXL, not to support anything they're doing, but some major corporations are now using PayPal as a means of commerce.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> some major corporations are now using PayPal as a means of commerce.


I wouldn't limit it to major corporations. Balancing the total untaxed income in question against creating more paperwork than it's worth will be difficult, though.

For example, what's the difference between a used goods store, somebody who regularly finds profitable buy-sell price gaps on ebay and other sites, and somebody who has a lot of used stuff to sell because they like getting new things?

I don't know where to draw the line, but it's worth examining. 

This probably ends with CRA staff breaking up the neighbourhood garage sale racket.


----------



## Macfury

Just pointing out that major multinationals are offering to pay invoices in PayPal, so it's not just little fish.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> FeXL, not to support anything they're doing, but some major corporations are now using PayPal as a means of commerce.


That comes as a surprise.



Beej said:


> I don't know where to draw the line, but it's worth examining.
> 
> This probably ends with CRA staff breaking up the neighbourhood garage sale racket.


I don't know the scale of this but it seems to me that offshore accounts would be a much bigger fish to fry.

Then again, the Liberals going after their own? Not likely. And, before the Progs jump up & start pointing fingers & screeching, Mulroney was about as politically right as you are, CM...


----------



## FeXL

Interesting.

Quebec unveils zero-tolerance marijuana plan: No home-grown cannabis allowed



> *Quebec will have zero tolerance for driving while high* and grow-your-own marijuana under a plan for the use and sale of cannabis that highlights the provincial government's discomfort with legalization.
> 
> Under draft legislation introduced on Thursday, the province's Liberal government would authorize police to test saliva samples from drivers and allow police to immediately suspend the licence of anyone driving with a trace of cannabis or illicit drugs for 90 days.


M'bold.

To clarify, the bolded portion is what I consider interesting. First off, where is said test? It don't exist, yet. Secondly, what about residual effect? Say, from two nights ago? Is the test going to be so accurate that it will be able to distinguish?

Also found this interesting:



> *Polls show Quebeckers are more uneasy than most Canadians with legalized marijuana.* On Wednesday, the Quebec government asked Ottawa to extend the July 1, 2018, deadline for legalization. The unveiling of Bill 172 on Thursday provided more evidence that the Quebec government would have preferred to avoid having to legalize cannabis.


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Where's the hue & cry from the left?

'Sickening': First Nations left empty-handed as environmentalist pressure kills B.C. energy projects

In a nutshell:



> While opponents steal the limelight, scores of pro-development First Nations groups worry they'll lose once-in-a-lifetime opportunities that could lift people out of poverty


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Quebec unveils zero-tolerance marijuana plan: No home-grown cannabis allowed
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> To clarify, the bolded portion is what I consider interesting. First off, where is said test? It don't exist, yet. Secondly, what about residual effect? Say, from two nights ago? Is the test going to be so accurate that it will be able to distinguish?
> 
> Also found this interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.


Should always have been a provincial decision. Pot head Trudeau wants to do this simply because he enjoys pot. Any other "decision-making" is just window dressing.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Pot head Trudeau wants to do this simply because he enjoys pot.


Well, that and a billion Canuck bucks in new taxes every year...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Well, that and a billion Canuck bucks in new taxes every year...


The left has always wanted to be in charge of every vice--gambling, drugs and prostitution. They're the modern mob. But I believe the tax revenue is not as important as a big fat bong to Trudeau.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> But I believe the tax revenue is not as important as a big fat bong to Trudeau.


Mebbe. However, this seems like an awful lot of work for yer typical stoner... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Mebbe. However, this seems like an awful lot of work for yer typical stoner... :lmao:


He figgers he'll only have to do it once.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> He figgers he'll only have to do it once.


Ah.


----------



## FeXL

FeXL said:


> CRA identifies gold mine


Related:

CRA identifies gold mine



> The good news is it will only cost CRA $500 million to recover $60 million in unpaid taxes.


<sniff> 'Bout right...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Government Pays a $4.8M Performance Bonus For a Billion $ Screw Up



> The Federal Government implemented a pay system for $309 Million, $400 million has been spent trying to fix it, as much as another $300 million is going to be needed to repair this system responsible for overpayments of $256 million of dollars. But don't worry, those responsible for this catastrophe got paid $4,827,913. in performance bonuses!


SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIIEEEEEEE!!!!!

Hey, Piggy, how come yer not running a Prog commentary on this? Out driving yer Priapus? Too sophisticated an issue for you? Excusing a Liberal gov't because they're Liberal? Or are you still fixated on DUFFY & $15 glasses of OJ?

Sou!!!

Please, share your wisdom... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Wait. I thought the Philippines trip was golden?

Duterte tells Canada's Trudeau to 'lay off' with his 'bullsh*t' after criticism of the Philippines' deadly war on drugs



> * President Duterte said that he was angered and insulted by Trudeau yesterday
> * Trudeau raised concerns about brutal anti-drug operations in the Philippines
> * But Duterte not amused, saying he does not answer to 'bullsh*t' from foreigners


Juthdin a bull$h!tter?!

Shocka... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on Climate Barbie.

GENIUS: Catherine McKenna Calls Herself “Minister Responsible For Weather”



> McKenna’s foolish tweets would be funny, if not for the fact that the terrible policies she and Trudeau are implementing are destroying real jobs and hurting Canadian workers.


----------



## 18m2

*Report card on the Liberals - from Angus Reed*



> Notably, not one member of cabinet receives a “good job” designation from more than 50 per cent of respondents.


The Good, the Bad and the Unknown: Canadians assess cabinet performance at the two-year mark


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

15,000 on Canada's deportation list, but some 'unco-operative' countries won't take their citizens back



> More than 15,000 foreign nationals are on Canada's deportation list, but some can't be removed because their home country won't take them back.
> 
> The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) confirms some countries either delay or refuse to repatriate their citizens who are here illegally, *but will not divulge which ones as it might "impact diplomatic negotiations."*


Screw diplomacy. A little public humiliation, along with cancelling all visas from said country.

In addition, just one more reason why they should never be allowed in the country in the first place until absolutely everything is cleared.


----------



## FeXL

I am extremely sceptical that all these "safe injection sites" accomplish anything, save enabling drug addiction.

Addicts fed their poisons — but safely — in public park



> It’s the perfect setup for hard-core addicts.
> 
> There’s a special tent for crack smokers.
> 
> There’s another tent to provide safe injections of illegal drugs like heroin, fentanyl and opiates and handouts of Naloxone (an antidote for opioid overdoses) — the tent now winterized with the generous assistance of the health ministry.
> 
> Overseeing the “military-grade equipment” that provides heating and lighting are two staff with the ministry’s emergency medical assistance team (EMAT). Cost is unknown at this point because the “deployment is ongoing,” says Laura Gallant, spokesman for Health Minister Eric Hoskins.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

We can't tell what we're getting for our huge housing budgets, watchdog warns



> We have almost no idea which anti-homelessness programs work well and which don’t, says Canada’s former Parliamentary budget officer, despite the millions upon millions of dollars we spend on them each year.


Close enough for gov't work.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Pardon me for asking, but isn't the whole point of these MMIWG meetings to find out what's happening to Native females?

MMIWG inquiry staff’s top priority is to protect commissioners from criticism: leaked email



> Shortly after she was hired, the executive director for the national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls (MMIWG), sent an email to all staff telling them their top priority was to protect the commissioners from “criticism or surprises.”
> 
> Debbie Reid sent the email on Oct. 12, a little over a week after she was named to the position. Reid made it clear she was brought in to create order within the inquiry and told staff, “I don’t mince words.”


Well, it's fine to be direct (I appreciate that type of communication myself) but seriously?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

No argument.

Immigration policy is out of control and needs an overhaul



> The Trudeau government’s plan to bring in close to one million new immigrants within the next three years should be of serious concern to Canadians. Next year alone, the numbers are expected to reach 310,000 but to that total must be added approximately 900,000 temporary foreign workers and foreign students who will be living in Canada. Since most of the newcomers will be settling in three of our major cities, the pressure on infrastructure and local services will be extreme.


Mebbe, just mebbe, this will convince the Progs living in these 3 cities that there is actually a problem.

Nah, just kidding...

More:



> Perhaps the most insidious argument still being advanced by government and other advocates of mass immigration is the belief that we need immigration to provide the workers needed to replace our aging population. This argument is obviously flawed if, as in Canada, the immigration movement has a similar age structure as the receiving country; then, immigration does not help the aging problem – indeed it may well exacerbate it.


Yeppers.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I am extremely sceptical that all these "safe injection sites" accomplish anything, save enabling drug addiction.
> 
> Addicts fed their poisons — but safely — in public park


Do you disagree with the stated aims of, for example, Vancouver Coastal Health? 

_Supervised injection sites are beneficial for the community and for residents:


They help prevent people from transmitting infectious diseases.
They encourage marginalized people to access health care services, including primary care and addiction treatment.
They bring stability to the community by improving public order and reducing the number of injections taking place on the street.
_​


----------



## Macfury

Took a walk through Gastown recently. If that program is working, I can't imagine what it looks like on a bad day.


----------



## FeXL

So, what's the thrust here?

In one breathe you accuse me of being a liar & in the next we're s'pose ta just have a convivial conversation?

Screw you, CM. Yer s'pose ta be a bright boy. You figger it out...



CubaMark said:


> Do you disagree blah, blah, blah...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Took a walk through Gastown recently. If that program is working, I can't imagine what it looks like on a bad day.


Related:

Syringes found steps away from school playground in downtown Toronto



> “The needles are over here!”
> 
> That was the surprising and concerning direction I received today from a group of elementary students from St. Michael’s Choir School. The parking lot beside their playground has been riddled with used syringes for months. They also directed me to the rock garden right beside the school’s front doors on Bond Street, where we found yet another syringe as students walked past to go for lunch.
> 
> We found more used needles in a nearby laneway and on the sidewalk. All just steps from The Works, Toronto’s first safe injection site. On Wednesday, it officially became a permanent fixture on Victoria Street, steps away from Yonge-Dundas Square, theatres, restaurants, the Eaton Centre and Ryerson University.


----------



## Beej

A lengthy article on the source of terrible behaviour we are seeing on university campuses (and increasingly leaking off campus). The article is a good way to catch up on the issue, and starts with current (Canadian) events before getting into the more general ideas.

Wilfrid Laurier and the Creep of Critical Theory - Quillette




> The inferences one might draw from this – that everyone on the Right is a potential Nazi, and that violence may be an unfortunate but necessary tool in achieving liberation – help explain why many in the social justice movement refer broadly to people on the Right as Nazis, defend the practice of ‘punching Nazis,’ and insist on preventing conservative speakers from speaking and conservative groups from assembling.





> In fact, escaping the need to fit science to a predefined purpose was arguably one of the main drivers of the scientific revolution. For centuries before that, philosophy, the precursor to science, was employed largely in the service of justifying religious accounts. (Thomas Aquinas famously referred to philosophy as the “handmaiden of theology.”) Critical Theory can in that sense be considered a return to a (quasi-)religious approach, where the purpose of scientific inquiry is defined a priori.


----------



## Macfury

That second quote is dead on, Beej.


----------



## 18m2

This article best summarizes why I remain opposed to transporting crude oil/bitumen to the West coast and beyond. I fail to understand how Alberta's problem with over-building it's bitumen mining facilities and apparent reliance on ONLY oil should become a problem for those of us left coasters.


> The primary beneficiaries of the Trans Mountain pipeline are Houston’s Kinder Morgan, Alberta’s slumping oil sector, controlled by foreign multinationals such as Exxon and Shell, and export markets in Asia, primarily China. It does nothing to enhance Canada’s energy security, and very little to boost the Canadian economy.
> 
> It does, however, seriously imperil B.C., particularly its tourism sector, which employs over 127,000 people and contributes $7.7 billion to GDP. To say nothing of the potential damage to one of the world’s richest and most complex marine ecosystems, and a West Coast lifestyle to which ocean sports such as kayaking and wind surfing are considered sacred.


A B.C. pipeline spill would be inevitable. But who would pay? - Macleans.ca


----------



## Macfury

I think at the very least a massive bond needs to be posted for any spill. No bond, end of application process.


----------



## Beej

18m2 said:


> This article best summarizes why I remain opposed to transporting crude oil/bitumen to the West coast and beyond.


Some good points are raised in the article, but the first quoted paragraph is one of the worst. As MF did, I would focus on the idea of liability requirements. The first quoted paragraph includes ill-informed statements about who "controls" the oil sector (benchmark it against, say, autos), as one example of the weaknesses in that paragraph.

On the province-versus-province stuff, I prefer a federal approach where the federal government handles major cross-border items such as this one. Provinces or cities playing gatekeeper, despite our constitution, encourages escalating problems.

See: the never ending mess that is the Nfld-QC hydropower saga.


----------



## Macfury

It would be like saying that BC fisheries should not be allowed to fish the coast because the food is only processed by multinationals and benefits only a few, while Canadians as a whole prefer to keep Pacific marine life alive. 



Beej said:


> Some good points are raised in the article, but the first quoted paragraph is one of the worst. As MF did, I would focus on the idea of liability requirements. The first quoted paragraph includes ill-informed statements about who "controls" the oil sector (benchmark it against, say, autos), as one example of the weaknesses in that paragraph.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> It would be like saying that BC fisheries should not be allowed to fish the coast because the food is only processed by multinationals and benefits only a few, while Canadians as a whole prefer to keep Pacific marine life alive.


The oddity of focusing on how foreign ownership and exports devalue a piece of infrastructure was second or third on my list of things to mention. I tried to keep it concise. 

Next up: a 700 word essay, and it's your fault.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hey, where's my Priapus-driving, porcine friend, Piggy, when I need him?

Sou!!!

The temporary Parliament Hill skating rink will be open for 3 weeks next month - @CdnHeritage confirms it costs $5.6 million and that doesn't include security.

Soooooouuuuuuueeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Wow. @RalphGoodale just admitted to using two year old data to determine how many ISIS fighters are in Canada. 



> When asked what the numbers were for the last two years, he said the numbers were “essentially the same”.


Close enough for gov't work.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Unbelievable...

Trudeau says diplomatic solution to North Korea standoff could come through working with Cuba



> Justin Trudeau says Canada could play a key role in defusing the tense global standoff with the North Korean regime by working with Cuba, a course of action the prime minister says he discussed with Cuban President Raul Castro when the two men met in Havana last year.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, couple of weeks back Juthdin & his cadre of idiots got a website up patting themselves on the back for all the wunnerful things they've done for the country. That said, let's say that they've been something short of truthful...

Liberal “Results”: The Real Tracker



> In November, the Liberal government used your tax dollars to launch Canada.ca/Results, a self-congratulatory mid-mandate progress report of sorts.
> 
> Never mind the irony of the Liberal government giving the Liberal government a glowing review of its own accomplishments; it contains countless stretches of the truth and omits just as many facts.
> 
> In response, we have put together this far more accurate analysis of the first two years of Justin Trudeau’s mandate.


Good read.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I think it's the spitting image. Definitely captured that "d'uh" look he sports so well. IQ is probably 20 points higher, too...

Justin Trudeau’s wax figure looks nothing like him, say Twitter users



> The unveiling of Justin Trudeau’s wax figure has upset people of the internet — who claim it looks more like the actor Sean Penn than the prime minister.


More:



> *Users also said that the statue is comparable to a “nightmare,”*...


Kinda like real life, no?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Unbelievable...
> 
> Trudeau says diplomatic solution to North Korea standoff could come through working with Cuba


Castro and Trudeau--hail team Titan!



FeXL said:


> I think it's the spitting image. Definitely captured that "d'uh" look he sports so well. IQ is probably 20 points higher, too...
> 
> Justin Trudeau’s wax figure looks nothing like him, say Twitter users
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda like real life, no?


Yep, the wax dummy projects the same vacuousness as the original.


----------



## SINC

Yep, we gotta allow them to keep it going:

ISIS brides returning home and raising the next generation of jihadist martyrs | National Post

And then there is this:

Brainwashed jihadists? No, they know exactly what they’re doing | Toronto Sun


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Majority of Parliament Hill security staff haven't had thorough background checks



> A majority of the security personnel on Parliament Hill, some of whom are armed, have not had thorough background checks and routinely have access to sensitive information despite a lack of official clearance, federal officials say.


Curious how that's not on Juthdin's accomplishments website...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

What could possibly go wrong...

Small Knives Now Permitted On Most Canadian And International Flights



> As of today – Monday, November 27, 2017 – small knives with blades of up to 6 cm will be permitted as carry-on luggage on domestic and most international flights, with the exception of flights to and from the United States.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Yep, we gotta allow them to keep it going:


Related:

What should Canada do about returning jihadists?



> What to do about Canadians who joined the so-called Islamic State when they come home—now that ISIS has been routed on the battlefield in the territory in Iraq and Syria that it used to call its “caliphate”—has emerged as a challenge for Justin Trudeau’s government.


Curious that The Hairdo finds this a challenge. The answer is obvious to anyone with enough brain power to melt the snow on their foreheads. Perhaps we should ask the wax dummy...

Unbelievable:

'Naïve' young jihadis who return from fighting for ISIS in Syria should be allowed 'space' to rejoin British society rather than face jail, says anti-terror watchdog

Briton’s returning from ISIS territory ‘DO NOT justify prosecution’ says terror watchdog

INSANITY: Official Says UK Will Not Prosecute Returning ISIS Terrorists From Syria and Iraq

UK Anti-Terror Tsar: UK Authorities Not Prosecuting Islamic State Returnees to Avoid Creating a ‘Lost Generation’

'Cause that's just the kind of generation you want to perpetuate itself...

Some of Europe gets it:

Returning ISIS Jihadists Pose Long, Uncharted Challenge



> An estimated 5,000 Europeans joined ISIS and other terrorist groups since fighting first broke out in Syria. While some surviving members may choose to remain in the region, or travel to other conflict areas like Afghanistan, a few thousand others are likely to try to make their way back home. In countries such as France, Belgium, Germany and The Netherlands, most of them are at the border, where they will be taken into custody and ultimately tried for terror-related offenses.


And maybe the US:

Seven of 129 American ISIS fighters return home



> The danger posed by returning Americans who have trained with and fought for ISIS overseas cannot be understated or ignored. While it is impossible for any government agency to know exactly how many Americans have left home to join ISIS, it is heartening to know that of those our government knows about, very few have returned home thus far.


Letting Islamic State jihadis return to the UK is like 'inviting the wolf to dinner', warns Briton who fought against the terror group



> Letting Islamic State jihadis return to the UK is like 'inviting the wolf to dinner', a Briton fighting against the murderous group has warned.
> 
> Having battled the extremists for the past three years alongside Syrian Democratic Forces, Macer Gifford said there was a 'real risk' those returning could carry out terror attacks.


Ya think?! 

That'll do it!!!

Britain To Give Free Houses To Bribe Returning Jihadists Not To Kill 

Nothing quite like handing out free headquarters' from which to plan domestic terror attacks.

Trudeau's de-radicalization approach is dangerous



> When it comes to national security, Canadians have plenty of reasons to be skeptical of the Trudeau government and its approach to protecting our safety.
> 
> Two news stories this week highlight the government’s lackluster approach to national security and show a refusal to take the necessary steps to protect Canadians from external threats.


Really. A moment of candor from a Liberal?

Chance of reintegrating Canadian ISIS fighters 'pretty remote': Goodale



> The likelihood of successfully reintegrating ISIS fighters with ties to Canada who have returned home is "pretty remote," admits Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale.
> 
> After days of questioning over Canada’s plan to rehabilitate returning ISIS fighters, the federal government’s point man on national security says it might be too late for some.


Once again, ya think?

Roy Green: Unlike Canada, our allies demand on-site retribution



> They made a choice and decision. It was their choice to follow the brutal path of the so-called Islamic State, their decision to declare Canada and Canadians a sworn enemy. No matter, they were Canadian.
> 
> Canada represented Western cultural decadence. The Islamic State offered the option to commit acts of barbarism: to set fire to a Jordanian fighter pilot locked into a cage; to hurl gays to their deaths from rooftops: to repeatedly rape young girls kidnapped from their families.
> 
> Surely such deeds cannot go unpunished. Certainly, when armies swept them from their self-declared caliphate and they made their way back to the bosom of Canada the landing would be anything but soft.
> 
> They were terrorists, after all; bullies who brutalized those who offered at best feeble resistance.


More:



> *Britain’s elite Special Air Service (SAS) has been issued a “kill list” of several hundred British jihadis. They are not to make it out of the Middle East alive. SAS special operators have been told this is the most important mission of the Regiment’s 75-year history.*


Yeah, my bold.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winnah!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on the crooked CSA.

Restoration by Injunction



> We just cornered the Canadian Standards Association (“CSA”). We’re being modest; they’re in trouble.
> 
> The CSA announced that the next amendment to Canada’s electrical laws will be released in the first week of January, 2018. Indeed, the CSA is even taking pre-orders on their website. They’re also offering review seminars in December. That is, if you pay them five hundred dollars, they’ll tell you what they’ve changed in the law before they release it this January.
> 
> That’s illegal. Quoting from the legislation that governs the CSA;
> 
> “The [CSA] shall notify the Canadian public of standards available for public review, the public review shall be a minimum of 60 calendar days, [and] on request of an interested party, the [CSA] must promptly provide a copy of the draft standard in question.”
> 
> This is called a public review law. Under this law, the CSA can’t restrict public access, they can’t trade money for access, and a full copy of the draft must be freely given to anyone.


Ark Fault Circuit Interrupter



> Regular readers will recall Anthony Toderian. Early in the Government’s litigations against PS Knight, it fell to Anthony Toderian to give media briefings on the position of the Canadian Standards Association (CSA).
> 
> This guy was gold for us. Toderian put his proverbial foot in it in every interview. His claims were so joyously farcical that we started linking him to Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the infamous everything-is-fine Iraqi Information Minister.
> 
> Well, our entertainments came to an end when Toderian left CSA for a more prestigious position doing nothing. He’s unemployed. Still, that’s progress.


Transparently Concealed



> Here’s a fun one;
> 
> In 2012, the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) published a “Scoping Document” on achieving transparency in government. This document was the basis for the Governance and Financial Accountability Accord issued by the Federal Government in April, 2013. The CSA, you see, is all about transparency.
> 
> We reported on CSA’s transparency document in July, 2013. Shortly thereafter, the entire “Scoping Document” disappeared from their records.
> 
> Next, we reported on another of CSA’s transparency initiatives, this time covering “accountability and transparency [and] engagement of the community and local stakeholders.” Basically, the CSA was lecturing on how to be transparent and accountable to the public.
> 
> Shortly after our report on this latest of CSA’s swanky new standards, the CSA deleted it from their website.
> 
> And it goes on like this. A large number of RestoreCSA.com links to evidence of CSA conduct are now dead links, not for lack of accuracy on our part, but for lack of transparency on CSA’s part. With metronomic regularity, the CSA endeavours to delete evidence after we link to it.
> 
> That brings us to the sordid saga of CSA’s annual reporting. In short, they don’t do any.


The Changing Climate of Standards



> The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) is seriously serious about the environment. Seriously. In fact, they’ve proudly announced their intention to insert climate change things and stuff into their standards.
> 
> Whether things or stuff, the stuffing of things into stuff not related to the stuff their things are supposed to deal with is, shall we say, a bit suspect.
> 
> “These projects,” said CSA, “aim to mitigate infrastructure vulnerabilities caused by extreme weather events to help keep Canadians safer.” *Given CSA’s propensity to propagandize meaninglessly, and their longstanding record of inflating costs, milking clients, faking results, and generalized scumbucketry, we think CSA’s much more interested in padding their standards for revenue purposes.*


M'bold.

Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Trudeau’s latest homegrown jihadist excuse? Blame Harper!



> Everyone wants to know what on earth is going on with homegrown jihadists here in Canada and so far they’ve got more questions than answers.
> 
> This past week the issue garnered renewed attention after multiple back and forth exchanges in the House of Commons over whether we should be treating our own jihadists, freshly returned from the battlefields, with kid gloves via unproven reintegration programs or try our hardest to charge and convict them of serious Criminal Code offences.
> 
> Amidst all of this, a new talking point is emerging from the Liberals: It’s all Stephen Harper’s fault.


Hell, why not Joe Who or Diefenbaker, too?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Finance Minister Bill Morneau silent on stock sell-off before tax changes



> Finance Minister Bill Morneau is refusing to say whether he sold millions of dollars worth of company stock days before introducing tax changes that may have caused share prices to drop.
> 
> Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre went after Morneau in question period on Monday, demanding to know whether the finance minister was behind the sale of $10.2-million worth of shares in Morneau Sheppell, the company he headed before he was elected a Toronto MP in 2015.
> 
> The Nov. 30, 2015 sale came a week before the Liberal government formally introduced changes to tax rates — dropping the income tax rate for middle-class Canadians while it boosting it on high-income earners.
> 
> Those rates were to take effect on Jan. 1, 2016, prompting financial advisers to advise high-income earners to realize capital gains in the last weeks of 2015 to avoid the coming higher tax rates.
> 
> “Did the minister sell his shares in Morneau Shepell in the amount of $10 million exactly one week before he tabled in the House of Commons market-moving tax changes?” Poilievre said.


Piggy!

Soooooouuuuuuuiiiiiieeeeee!!!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Ranting about climate isn’t good government policy, and isn’t convincing anyone



> We need to tone down the rhetoric and have an honest discussion based on verifiable science and the financial implications of green policies


What?!

Heresy!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hack or Flack: Aaron Wherry Edition



> As we all know, a Canadian Journalist’s main job is to smooth over any rough spots and shush away worries as the Liberal government plunders the public purse to pay for technocratic solutions to problems we didn’t know we had while adopting a laissez-faire attitude to the problems we do have. If the Opposition has a point, it falls to a Canadian Journalist to correct the record and say that, well, actually, no they don’t.


<snort>

Nails it...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on The Hairdo welcoming home ISIS fighters.

Plan to deal with returning ISIS fighters sparks fiery exchange between Scheer, PM



> In an explosive shouting match in the House of Commons Tuesday, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer accused the Liberal government of going easy on suspected ISIS terrorists returning to Canada, while the prime minister blamed the Conservatives for “trying to scare Canadians.”
> 
> The Conservatives have repeatedly hammered the government’s plan to rehabilitate ISIS fighters who return to Canada. Earlier this year, the government established a counter-radicalization centre, the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence, in a bid to counter extremism.
> 
> In his opening remarks in question period, Scheer asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau why his government is “so focused on reintegration and not putting these people in jail.”
> 
> Trudeau responded that the government has a broad range of tools to keep Canadians safe, including “*enforcement, surveillance and national security tools.*”


M'bold.

All of which have served us in such good stead already...

Hey, Juthdin, if the bastards weren't here in the first place, we wouldn't even have to employ said "broad range of tools" to monitor them! We could focus on other lawbreakers. Like, say, Liberal MP's... beejacon


----------



## FeXL

Wynne calls $12B in savings in PC platform 'ridiculous'



> The Progressive Conservatives' suggestion that $12 billion could be cut from Ontario's budget is "ridiculous," Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne says as her party crystallizes its criticisms against the Tories' newly unveiled election platform.
> 
> The recently announced PC plan reveals their platform six months ahead of the campaign and has also provided previews of what's sure to be a consistent Liberal line of attack until the June vote.
> 
> The Tory platform says $12 billion in savings could be found over three years -- $6 billion from cancelling Ontario's cap-and-trade program and another $6 billion they say could be found from a value-for-money audit.


As opposed to the calm, rational, well thought out $300+ billion debt of the Wynners...


----------



## CubaMark

This reminds me of someone.... hmmmm....  :yikes:

Alberta Conservative MLA: Legalizing Marijuana Could Lead to a Communist Revolution in Canada


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> This reminds me of someone.... hmmmm....  :yikes:


It reminds me of your lazy-ass style of presenting links without checking the original source.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It reminds me of your lazy-ass style of presenting links without checking the original source.


?????? What are you on about now, MF?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hey, Freddie, something for the wife for Christmas? Or mebbe for yourself...

There’s A Justin Trudeau Boyfriend Calendar, And I Just Threw Up In My Mouth



> But for those women who love the manlet-pretty-boy-type? Well, y’all are going to love this. You’re going to adooooore the fact that there’s a Justin Trudeau boyfriend calendar, just in time for Christmas gift-giving (probably for yourself!), because it’s like re-living your Teen Beat years, girl...


More:



> Anywho, this Chick’s response to the calendar sums mine up perfectly:
> 
> Ewww… So gross.


Yeppers...


----------



## FeXL

Further from the religion of peace.

Shelter for Muslim women fleeing violence opens in Windsor



> Windsor this week became the third city in Canada to open a shelter for Muslim women fleeing domestic violence or poverty.
> 
> Called a Nisa Home — drawing from the Arabic word for woman — the renovated, four-bedroom house centrally located in the city is officially open. No one is calling it home yet, but staff have already received word about a possible referral from another local agency, said project manager Mahwish Ayub.


More:



> Windsor’s largest women’s shelter, Hiatus House, reports that *Muslim women make up about 10 per cent of its clientele* — about 30 to 40 women each year.


M'bold.

And, according to this little linky, the female Arab population of Windsor in 2011 was 4464 (22,320 * 20%), representing a minuscule 2.1%, nearly 5 times less than what is seen at Hiatus House.

Another Prog narrative shot to hell...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hey, where's my sophisticated little Priapus-driving porcine pal, Piggy, at? Anybody seen him? Notice how quiet he gets when the left gets caught with their snouts in the trough?

Sooooooouuuuuuuiiiiiiieeeeeee!!!

Bill Morneau’s father sold 200K shares in family company days before tax changes announced



> As Finance Minister Bill Morneau is pressed in the House of Commons for details on the circumstances of the sale of shares he held in his family business, Morneau Shepell Inc., Global News has analyzed insider trading reports of the company and discovered that Morneau’s father sold a significant number of shares days before his son announced a major tax policy change.
> 
> Regulatory filings show that William F. Morneau Sr. sold 100,000 shares of Morneau Sheppell Inc. (MSI) at a price of $15.20 per share on Nov. 23, 2015, and sold another 100,000 shares on Dec 3, 2015, at a price of $15 a share.


Here, pig. SOU!!!


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> ?????? What are you on about now, MF?


You did not report the story accurately.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> You did not report the story accurately.


(a) Not a reporter. Academic, remember?

(b) Did not intend to "report". Just posted a link.

(c) You still don't get it. The fellow in the photo reminds me of someone. Maybe it's just me...


----------



## Macfury

It might remind you of someone, but the story is not accurate. I don't link to stories without at least a cursory check for confirmation or accuracy.


----------



## FeXL

Allegedly, an ex-_journalist..._

In addition, one would think that a thorough academic would want to be as accurate as possible, _too._

Or does the fact that you are a _social_ scientist <snerk> negate any degree of accuracy?



CubaMark said:


> (a) Not a reporter. Academic, remember?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

'Chill out' about jihadists? Nonsense



> Islamic State terrorists are back in Canada, and the Trudeau government doesn’t seem to have a clue how to handle the situation. This cluelessness was on display in Question Period last week when Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau how many ISIS jihadists were back in Canada.
> 
> In one of his worst performances in the House of Commons (and that’s a low bar), Trudeau responded by reading a prepared statement.


More:



> Instead, Trudeau provided a half-hearted explanation about the various government programs related to terrorism, including a reintegration program for returned jihadists.
> 
> *How on earth does the federal government expect to “reintegrate” members of a maniacal death cult?*


M'bold.

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING!!! We have a WINNAH!!!

I know! They can go live with Juthdin & Soph... :clap:


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> This reminds me of someone....


Bill Nye?

This is a good example of how someone's extrapolation based on Butterfly Effect logic is laughable to one group of people, but less so to others, based on politics. It's a plausible and uncertain enough chain of events that it could be a thing, but the argument is political rhetoric.

X could lead to Y because everything is interconnected to some degree. Don't fall for it when your "side" does it.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It might remind you of someone, but the story is not accurate. I don't link to stories without at least a cursory check for confirmation or accuracy.


Ok - thanks for making me sit through those two minutes of ridiculousness (such as comparing marijuana to opium) to review the matter. I'm assuming, then, since you've declined to be specific, that your issue is with the title of the article: 

*"Alberta Conservative MLA: Legalizing Marijuana Could Lead 
to a Communist Revolution in Canada"​*
I'll concede the point, as Ron Orr did not say that. He said a whole lot of other really off the wall things, but not that, and the title misrepresents his statements:

“Their whole society was so broken down and debilitated by it that it contributed to the Chinese Cultural Revolution under the communists, the execution of thousands of people, dealers were executed, fields were plowed under and planted with real food and I, for one, am not really willing to go down this road. The human tragedy of what’s going to happen with this has yet to be revealed. Yes, opium smoking, like marijuana, was a fashionable refined pastime especially among the young – but I’ll tell you something, it doesn’t lead to the good life. It’s an escape.”​
Orr is still ridiculous. But he did not specifically state that marijuana legalization would lead to a Communist revolution in Canada. I don't think anyone is that stupid. It's going to lead to a crapload of late-night munchie binges (invest now in Domino's!), but no slacker whacked-out on reefer is going to be able to organize any kind of worker's revolt leading to the seizure of the means of production and state power.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Allegedly, an ex-_journalist..._


What, you want my pay stubs as proof? It was only 20 years ago..... 



FeXL said:


> In addition, one would think that a thorough academic would want to be as accurate as possible, _too._


Why should I put in any more effort than the likes of you?



FeXL said:


> Or does the fact that you are a _social_ scientist <snerk> negate any degree of accuracy?


Snarky bastard. But then, what would one expect from a typical anti-fact right-winger

:lmao:?


----------



## Macfury

Appreciate it.



CubaMark said:


> *"Alberta Conservative MLA: Legalizing Marijuana Could Lead
> to a Communist Revolution in Canada"​*
> I'll concede the point, as Ron Orr did not say that. He said a whole lot of other really off the wall things, but not that, and the title misrepresents his statements...


----------



## FeXL

So, what's the thrust? You've forgotten how to be objective? How to shore your argument with empirical facts? Judging by your posts on these boards, definitely, _incontrovertibly_, yes. And your tenure in social academia certainly does not appear to have changed much. If anything, it's made it worse.



CubaMark said:


> What, you want my pay stubs as proof? It was only 20 years ago.....


Oh, that you would put in half the effort I do...



CubaMark said:


> Why should I put in any more effort than the likes of you?


That's it? That's all you got? Stunning.

This coming from the guy who thinks alternative energy gets less subsidies than carbon based energy on a per unit basis, the guy who thinks alternative energy is at cost parity with carbon based energy worldwide, the guy who thinks Tesla isn't subsidized, the guy who believes the Globull Warming mantra, the guy who thinks Islam is not a threat to the planet, the guy who thinks socialism is a positive step, the guy who thinks the MSM is reliable & unbiased, the guy who thinks making guns illegal for law-abiding citizens will somehow stop criminals from owning them.

I could go on at length but this throws into sharp relief the high spots of your fact-free, Prog world...



CubaMark said:


> Snarky bastard. But then, what would one expect from a typical anti-fact right-winger


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

What's this? A black eye for our platinum plated, envy-of-the-planet, world class, refugee vetting system?

Shocka...

Internal government audit finds ‘gaps’ in security screening of Syrian refugees



> Gaps in the security screening of Syrian refugees led to dozens being admitted to Canada without proper vetting, according to a government report obtained by Global News.
> 
> The Canada Border Services Agency audit found that changes to screening procedures for Operation Syrian Refugee “introduced some gaps in the security screening process.”


More:



> Michelle Rempel, the Conservation immigration critic, said the way the audit was redacted suggested the government was trying to hide the screening problems.


Ya think?! :yikes:

Further:



> The report said that to meet Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s election campaign promise to bring in 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of 2015, changes were made to the screening process.
> 
> The screening period was shortened to 96 hours from 30 days, for example, and a new procedure was developed for identifying cases flagged for checks. *But the audit found holes.*


Understatement, much?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Not often I come close to agreeing w/Warren Kinsella...

You're Possibly The Worst Cabinet Minister In Canada's History, Melanie Joly



> Anyway. Let's forget about the Holocaust Monument, and the Netflix thing, and Canada 150. Let's forget about all that. Let's turn the page. Let's focus, instead, on your latest decision, which I will render all-caps, because I think it merits it:
> 
> MELANIE JOLY HAS SPENT $5 MILLION TO BUILD A HOCKEY RINK ON PARLIAMENT HILL.
> 
> And it's not just any $5-million hockey rink. No, not in Joly World. It is a $5-million hockey rink that:
> 
> * Prohibits the playing of hockey.
> * Will be in existence for less than a month.
> * Is a block from the biggest skating rink in the world, the Rideau Canal.
> 
> Oh, and the Toronto Star reported this: "The rink, which will be available for free public skating from Dec. 7 to Jan. 1, is budgeted to cost about $215,385 per day that it's open."


Actually, I think it's a toss up between Joly, Goodale & Monsef.

So, Priapus driving Piggy, once again, where's your criticism? Or are you unable to foment a harsh word against your Progressive overlords?

Souieeeeeee!!!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on The Spawn welcoming returning jihadists to Canada with open arms...

Trudeau labels legit terrorism questions as 'Islamophobia'



> There’s an old joke in political circles that says a racist is what you call someone who is winning an argument against a leftist.
> 
> The idea of course being that if you’re using logic and facts to box your political opponent into a corner, they’ll turn around and randomly call you racist or reach for some other below the belt tactic to malign your character and sneak away from having to deal with the actual issue at hand.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau used such a cheap shot earlier this week when faced with questions from Conservative leader Andrew Scheer on the government’s position on reintegrating Islamic State adherents from Canada who’ve since returned home from battle.


Juthdin, Juthdin, Juthdin...


----------



## FeXL

Now wait just a goldarned minute here! Thought all those gold-plated firearm licensing laws the Progs push were s'pose to stop this from happening.

UPDATED: Man charged in Rochester Street shooting



> Ottawa Police have charged a 22-year-old man following shooting on Rochester Street Thursday afternoon.
> 
> Mohamed Ribih is facing a list of chares including use/handle/store firearm carelessly, point a firearm, possession of a weapon/ dangerous to public peace, possession of a firearm other than restricted or prohibited firearm without holding a licence, possession of a firearm other than restricted or prohibited firearm knowingly not holding a licence, occupy a motor vehicle with firearm, possession of a loaded regulated firearm, and discharge a firearm being reckless as to the life or safety of another person.


Mohamed, Mohamed... Where have I heard that name before?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

> CTV: "Alberta Premier Rachel Notley says that United Conservative Leader Jason Kenney's rhetoric on pipelines is starting to mirror the isolationist proposals made by U.S. President Donald Trump.
> 
> "He's essentially saying that, what we should do is build a wall around Alberta. I wouldn’t be surprised if, tomorrow, he comes out demanding that B.C. pays for it," Notley said in an interview with Evan Solomon, host of CTV's Question Period..."
> 
> "He’s approaching and recommending a very isolationist view of how Alberta should engage with the rest of the country," Notley said. She thinks this is the wrong approach and doubts it’ll be effective.
> 
> "He’s just not going to build a pipeline by crossing his arms, sticking out his lower lip, pouting, and then somehow suggesting that the answer to it is to ask Kinder Morgan to actually stop shipping what they’re already shipping in order to get this done," she said.
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/kenn...703821#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=8GOtPaX


http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...703821#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=8GOtPaX


----------



## Macfury

...'cause Rachel's approach has been so effective!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada’s spy agencies casting wider net on citizens’ electronic data, parliamentary report says



> On the eve of a crucial new national-security debate, parliamentarians are being told that federal spy agencies are out to data-mine “bulk” amounts of electronic records about ordinary people as they seek to spot extraordinary terrorist threats.


Observation:



> Contrast this with immigration policy.


Yep.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

North Korean defectors in GTA facing deportation



> Hyekyung Jo, a North Korean defector living in Toronto with her husband and sons for seven years, had hoped to remain in Canada as a permanent resident.
> 
> Instead, she and as many as 50 other North Korean families residing across the GTA recently received letters from the federal Immigration Department informing them that their requests for permanent residency are poised to be revoked. They face deportation to South Korea — a place that Jo said is hostile to North Korean nationals.


Contrast that with:

Monsef's papers still aren't in order and the media still hardly cares



> Federal Minister Maryam Monsef is back in the news this week, over the same scandal that dogged her in 2016. According to news reports, Monsef still hasn’t resolved the issues with her citizenship and has yet to receive a new, updated passport.
> 
> Last fall, Monsef revealed that she was born in Iran and not Afghanistan as she had once claimed. We also learned that Monsef spent most of her childhood in the city of Mashad, Iran — not war-torn Afghanistan.
> 
> *Monsef admitted in an interview that her family was “technically safe” in Iran, calling into question whether she was a bona fide refugee, as per international definitions and Canadian immigration law. *


Questions, questions, questions...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Does Jason Kenney have what it takes to become the next premier of Alberta? Probably not. 



> There’s an awful lot of schadenfreude flowing around conservative circles in Alberta these days. Jason Kenney making his big win to lead the United Conservative Party in the next election seems to have many conservatives thinking the game is already over. Polls show a landslide win for the UCP and with 1.5 years (more likely 2.5 years) until the next election, Jason will have plenty of time to organize and strategize.
> 
> 
> For the record, I’m a conservative. If you haven’t read my work here before you might dismiss this piece as a typical “Red Tory” drive-by that encourages people to win by becoming more liberal.
> 
> 
> That’s not what this is.
> 
> 
> I’m just shooting some cool water on the hubris of another new party looking to claim the mantle of Alberta’s conservative torch.


http://www.poletical.com/jason-kenney-could-lose.php


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

The polls are correct. Anyone but Notley. She is destroying Alberta.


----------



## FeXL

Awrite, I got a few minutes. Let's start the debunking.

1. Alberta may not be as Conservative as some but Alberta is definitely _not_ NDP. Anybody who thought Ted Morton was going to save the PC's was an idiot. He even notes that the WR'ers who crossed over paid the price. That's not a reflection on the WR party but on those who crossed over. This guy ain't got a clew... In addition, Prentice was about as conservative as Juthdin.

2. Red Rachel will not be able to buy enough incumbents. The more money she spends buying votes she already has, the more fringe-NDP voters she'll alienate. Voters will not be complacent next election.

3. Fear & smear? As opposed to facts like, say, $100 billion in debt & deficit which will be passed onto our grandchildren? Bring the smear.

4. Yawn...

5. Who says Kenney will try Klein's approach?

6. "Urban living necessitates...central planning, curbing personal liberty and micro-managing the masses." Bull*****...

7. Name me one staunch Catholic who won't protect a child of any orientation.

8. The reason Kenney won with 35,000 votes is because nobody liked either candidate for the job as UCP leader. In Kenney vs Red Rachel, you can expect that number to be significantly higher 'cause as offensive as Kenney is to many Albertans, he's less offensive than her.

9. The only thing Kenney & the UCP needs to campaign on is to repeal every single piece of legislation the Progs passed & they'll will win with a landslide.

10. Anecdotally, again, yawn. If the writer's 2 friends are going to vote for Red Rachel because Kenney is a virgin, they're NDP anyway & nothing he can be, say or do will change that.

Conclusion
#1. There will be no need to fear & smear the NDP. Their track record says it all.
#2. Who cares after the NDP gets the shoe? We can deal with that when the time comes.
#3. Kenney doesn't have to "reinvent" conservatism. Neither at a 90's level nor any other. Base the campaign entirely on the damage Red Rachel has done to the province & that is all.

My $0.02 & worth every cent. :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> Does Jason Kenney have what it takes to become the next premier of Alberta? Probably not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Awrite, I got a few minutes. Let's start the debunking.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Alberta may not be as Conservative as some but Alberta is definitely _not_ NDP. Anybody who thought Ted Morton was going to save the PC's was an idiot. He even notes that the WR'ers who crossed over paid the price. That's not a reflection on the WR party but on those who crossed over. This guy ain't got a clew... In addition, Prentice was about as conservative as Juthdin.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Red Rachel will not be able to buy enough incumbents. The more money she spends buying votes she already has, the more fringe-NDP voters she'll alienate. Voters will not be complacent next election.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Fear & smear? As opposed to facts like, say, $100 billion in debt & deficit which will be passed onto our grandchildren? Bring the smear.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Yawn...
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Who says Kenney will try Klein's approach?
> 
> 
> 
> 6. "Urban living necessitates...central planning, curbing personal liberty and micro-managing the masses." Bull*****...
> 
> 
> 
> 7. Name me one staunch Catholic who won't protect a child of any orientation.
> 
> 
> 
> 8. The reason Kenney won with 35,000 votes is because nobody liked either candidate for the job as UCP leader. In Kenney vs Red Rachel, you can expect that number to be significantly higher 'cause as offensive as Kenney is to many Albertans, he's less offensive than her.
> 
> 
> 
> 9. The only thing Kenney & the UCP needs to campaign on is to repeal every single piece of legislation the Progs passed & they'll will win with a landslide.
> 
> 
> 
> 10. Anecdotally, again, yawn. If the writer's 2 friends are going to vote for Red Rachel because Kenney is a virgin, they're NDP anyway & nothing he can be, say or do will change that.
> 
> 
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> #1. There will be no need to fear & smear the NDP. Their track record says it all.
> 
> #2. Who cares after the NDP gets the shoe? We can deal with that when the time comes.
> 
> #3. Kenney doesn't have to "reinvent" conservatism. Neither at a 90's level nor any other. Base the campaign entirely on the damage Red Rachel has done to the province & that is all.
> 
> 
> 
> My $0.02 & worth every cent. :lmao:




Thanks for your feedback. I don't agree with most of it, of course, but your response has certainly been civil. Much appreciated.


----------



## Macfury

The weakest point of that article is the writer's notion that one can't cut spending and win. Or that an austere budget leads to economic collapse.


----------



## SINC

Yep.


----------



## eMacMan

Something feels a little off about this article but an including it anyways. Clearly by the time someone reaches cabinet level they should know better.

Calgary minister Hehr blasted by thalidomide survivors | Calgary Herald


----------



## eMacMan

Strikes me that 10 years is way too light for this crime.

Joshua Burgess pleads guilty to killing his wife Shannon Madill Burgess | Calgary Herald


----------



## dtaylor

eMacMan said:


> Strikes me that 10 years is way too light for this crime.
> 
> Joshua Burgess pleads guilty to killing his wife Shannon Madill Burgess | Calgary Herald


The headline is misleading. He received a life sentence, with 10 years before he is eligible to apply for parole.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Canada dumps Boeing fighter jet deal over trade dispute with US 



> Plans to buy 18 Boeing Super Hornet fighter jets have been scrapped by the Canadian government due to the deepening dispute with the US aerospace company, sources told Reuters.
> 
> *According to the sources, next week Ottawa will announce it intends to acquire a used fleet of older Australian F-18 jets. It’s the same type of plane the Royal Canadian Air Force currently operates.*


M'bold.

Buying somebody else's problems.

F'ing geniuses...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Nope. No need to address this totally & completely imaginary issue...

Trudeau Liberals Remove ‘Barbaric Cultural Practices’ From Citizenship Test



> Canada’s Liberal government has removed condemnation of “barbaric cultural practices” like Muslim honor killings and female genital mutilation from the study guide used to complete the Canadian citizenship exam.
> 
> The Canadian Press has obtained a copy of the soon-to-be-released guide and noted extensive revisions.


And this little gem:



> The reference to “getting a job” as an obligation of Canadian citizenship has also been excised.


'Course it has!

With the Progs not only willing but happy to spend taxpayer money on social programs that will guarantee not only the fact that our newest citizens will be permanently indentured but their vote will be cast for their saviours in perpetuity, why inconvenience the poor darlings with actually tasking them to find a <spit> job?


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Canada dumps Boeing fighter jet deal over trade dispute with US
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Buying somebody else's problems.
> 
> F'ing geniuses...


I'm afraid out procurement practices are all about old boy networks and patronage and not about the military. Look at our history in this regard. I mean really wouldn't you love to have a Fed contract. You are guaranteed to gain millions in over run costs with out actually doing anything to fulfill the contract...... building. a ship, we'll spend millions and nothing done, buy a sub.... hey maybe it will sink before we get it, buy planes.... Oh, forgot we don't buy planes....only say we do.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> Nope. No need to address this totally & completely imaginary issue...
> 
> Trudeau Liberals Remove ‘Barbaric Cultural Practices’ From Citizenship Test
> 
> 
> 
> And this little gem:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Course it has!
> 
> With the Progs not only willing but happy to spend taxpayer money on social programs that will guarantee not only the fact that our newest citizens will be permanently indentured but their vote will be cast for their saviours in perpetuity, why inconvenience the poor darlings with actually tasking them to find a <spit> job?


I work with new immigrants and refugees, so this may seem like a bias but I hope it isn't. First, there is a difference between an immigrant and a refugee. Second, we give too much "free" stuff to both parties. In fact in some areas at the cost of citizens, but that shouldn't be a barrier to have new Canadians come to this country....we were built by immigrants. However, I have always taken issue with the Citizenship Test... it is culturally biased and really doesn't test if someone would make a good citizen ( what ever that is ). What we should have is a Citizen"s Learners Permit.... we have leaners permits for driving, so why not being a Canadian citizen. When you deal with different cultures you are bound to have cultural run ins....some are dramatic and counter to Canadian society, others are just social blunders. A newcomer needs to understand the culture of the country that they have chosen, they need time to learn it and live in it. They need to see the differences between their culture and social belief structure and ours. If there is a major transgression then that individual and family needs to be sent packing as they will never adjust, why, because they don't value the cultural differences....... Many times our angst at newcomers is rooted in a clash of the cultures....some we can live with, others we can't.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I'm afraid out procurement practices are all about old boy networks and patronage and not about the military.


In this particular case, it's all about politics. Turdeau (sic) got his feelin's hurt with the US tax on Bombardier, now he's taking his ball & going home.

Wah, f'ing wah...


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> In this particular case, it's all about politics. Turdeau (sic) got his feelin's hurt with the US tax on Bombardier, now he's taking his ball & going home.
> 
> Wah, f'ing wah...


I think that just about sums it up.....


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I work with new immigrants and refugees...


Yes, this country was built with immigrants. Many of which were born & raised in some $h!thole across some ocean & whose families came here looking for ways to improve their lot, whatever the circumstances. They all had one thing in common: they were thankful for the second chance. They put their heads down & their arses up & they eked a living out of the soil, the family business or busting their butts for someone else. Very damn few looked for a handout because they were a proud people as a whole and not prone to taking charity.  And, while they may have spoken their mother tongue at home and observed their particular customs there, too, they learned to speak the local language, had their children educated here & assimilated into this big melting pot all without managing to disrupt Canadian society with the desire to import their own customs & laws that made wherever they came from a $h!thole in the first place.

As to the citizenship test, yes, I have a few issues with it but mine go the other way. I don't think it probes nearly deep enough into the mindset of the prospective Canadian. And The Hairdo is watering it down even more. What a sad joke.

As to your suggestion of a "Citizen"s Learners Permit", the thought that comes immediately to mind is, "Oh, great. Another f'ing gov't bureaucracy making political decisions with our immigration policy". Like we don't have one of those already. Who is going to trace of all these potential Canadians? We can't keep track of the ones we currently have. They're s'pose to report to an immigration officer or at some courthouse & they never arrive. They hide in a dark corner of some big city & effectively disappear, raising their children as citizens.

And, I agree that anybody here who runs counter to Canadian values should be given a free ticket to elsewhere. However, that doesn't always work, either. Some of the $h!tholes these people come from don't want them back in the first place. And, if memory serves, Canada won't send anyone back to a country that threatens their existence & we're stuck with them, even if they failed the Learner's Permit! Lose/lose.

And yeah, I have great concern over the rape & misogynistic culture that many of the immigrants & refugees are currently bringing into Canada.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, Juthdin sits astride Butt's fence. Again...

Trudeau rejects Trump approach to Jerusalem, favours ‘two-state solution’



> Ruling out Donald Trump's approach, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he favours a "two-state solution" and won't be moving Canada's embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.
> 
> Reiterating Canada's long-standing view, Mr. Trudeau said Ottawa will not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, though he refrained from saying anything that could be implied as criticizing Mr. Trump for the controversial move.


Well, at least he didn't make relations w/ the US worse...

'Course, on the other side, we have the wafflers:

Conservatives won’t say whether or not Jerusalem should be recognized as Israel’s capital



> After a day of silence, the Conservative Party confirmed Thursday it’s not ready to definitively say whether or not Canada should recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
> 
> Foreign critic Erin O’Toole said he condemns statements from Palestinian leaders “almost encouraging violence,” but Tories want to be “very deliberate and cautious” about a decision on how to move forward.


Guess they have to plan a tea leaf reading ceremony or something...


----------



## 18m2

FeXL said:


> Guess they have to plan a tea leaf reading ceremony or something...


I think a wait and see is a better strategy because the Americans may want to rethink the move when the chances are their new embassy is going to be burnt to the ground.


----------



## Rps

18m2 said:


> I think a wait and see is a better strategy because the Americans may want to rethink the move when the chances are their new embassy is going to be burnt to the ground.


Yes, I think this would be wise. If my history is correct, that city was split in to, the West was Israel and the East Palestine. The idea was that both side claimed the city as one of its holy sites. When Jordan came into play with the 6 Day War Israel took over the whole city and West Bank, which has for some time caused conflict as it went against the split city plan.

One of the easiest ways to not have an explosion is not light the fuse. For years there has been ideological pandering by both sides. The U.S. is reviled in that area and really for the U.S. to move its embassy, contrary to advice from Europe and many others solely for a campaign promise by a U.S. president boarders on absurd. The optics are dreadful.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> I think a wait and see is a better strategy because the Americans may want to rethink the move when the chances are their new embassy is going to be burnt to the ground.


So, what's the thrust here? Do you go with what's politically correct or do you take a stand?

Frankly, I take a stand. Every time. And I respect people who do the same. Trump has earned my respect on this particular issue. The Dope & the Conservatives have not.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> The idea was that both side claimed the city as one of its holy sites.


There's a good read at a link I posted to the International Poli thread about this. First link in the post.


----------



## eMacMan

812 Ontario government buildings are empty, and selling them is taking years - Toronto - CBC News

Is it just me or does more than $100,000/year/building, to maintain vacant government buildings seem extreme to the point of being obscene? 

Especially given that:


> Many of the 812 buildings listed as vacant are not full-sized, explained an official at Infrastructure Ontario. They include such things as storage sheds, warehouses and outbuildings, and often a single disused site contains multiple vacant buildings, said the official.


----------



## eMacMan

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/syrian-refugees-slam-interpreting-services-232556801.html


> It's been two years since the first Syrian refugees began arriving in the Saint John area, and some of those upset by continuing growing pains voiced their complaints outside the YMCA on Friday.
> At the core of the issue is access to interpreting services. The YMCA of Greater Saint John provides support to Syrians settled in the area, including interpreters.


At the risk of pointing out the obvious, two years is sufficient time for this group to have grown their own interpreters. Most of us who immigrated to Canada were required to be able to speak either English or French, before we were admitted. If you want to make an exception for refugees that's fine, but in no way should that bypass altogether their obligation to learn to communicate in one of Canada's official languages.


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

The alt-right, nazi sympathizing crowd really needs to rethink their efforts to stop the Liberals. A great turnout in Surrey dealt another blow to CPC aspirations in 2019 in what has been a pretty conservative riding. Combined with the loss of Lac St. Jean earlier this fall the CPC is losing seats in parliament.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-of-four-federal-byelections/article37299904/


----------



## Macfury

I love hearing all of the snowflake buzzwords used in a single post. How are things in Ottawa these days Jimbo? Are you sucking up gobs of Liberal pork to feed your company?


----------



## FeXL

Yeah. And gaining more Liberal a$$holes. Truly what this country needs.

Speaking of which, Piggy, no comments on all the Progs with their snouts in the trough that I've posted on recently? Or doesn't that matter 'cause they're Progs?

I see ya got rid of yer Priapus & now drive a Tesla. Don't worry, you'll always be my little Priapus drivin' buddy...



FUXL said:


> Combined with the loss of Lac St. Jean earlier this fall the CPC is losing seats in parliament.]


----------



## FeXL

Now waaaaaait just a minute. If religious bakery owners have to bake a cake for a gay wedding, how come the Tranna Public Library gets to choose who rents library space?

Raaaaaacists!!!

Toronto library bars hate groups from renting space



> The Toronto library board unanimously approved restrictions that will prevent groups from renting library space to promote discrimination or hate.
> 
> Library staff can now deny or cancel bookings they believe are “likely to promote, or would have the effect of promoting discrimination, contempt or hatred of any group, hatred for any person” based on race, ethnicity, colour, language, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, among other factors, according to a staff report.


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of Tranna, I see they're now installing some of those newfangled Diversity Bollards, just like in Europe.

Vehicle barriers to be installed at Toronto’s Nathan Phillips Square



> Toronto city council wants to hold more consultations before considering beefing up security measures at City Hall.
> 
> Council did, however, approve new vehicle mitigation measures for Nathan Phillips Square during its meeting on Friday.
> 
> Perimeter posts will be installed to help protect the public if a vehicle were to mount the curb and target a crowd of people.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

h/t SDA, who noted:



> When you've been spanked trying to use the summer to slide unjust restrictions into place you're next option is to do it during the Christmas holidays.


Yep.

Feds provide more details on revisions to controversial tax proposals



> The federal government released more details Wednesday on changes to its controversial tax proposals in hopes of further addressing deep concerns over reforms that have angered the small-business community.
> 
> The Liberals are tweaking a proposal that, as of Jan. 1, would tighten existing rules enabling small-business owners to lower their tax burden by distributing earnings among family members who do not make significant contributions to their companies -- a practice known as income sprinkling.
> 
> The changes are among several adjustments the government made to its overall tax-reform package following an onslaught of complaints from doctors, lawyers, accountants, tax experts, farmers, premiers and even some Liberal backbenchers.


Related:

Morneau clarifies small-business tax changes as senators blast plan



> The federal government has released a host of new technical tax guidelines for small-business owners that will take effect Jan. 1, just as a Senate committee is urging Finance Minister Bill Morneau to scrap the plan entirely.
> 
> The Senate finance committee is siding with critics of the government's approach, following months of cross-country hearings on a package of proposals that Mr. Morneau first released in July and later revised in October.
> 
> "Most witnesses told our committee that the proposed changes should be withdrawn in their entirety," the committee report states. "We are inclined to agree. We are not convinced that the government has made a good case for its proposals."


From the SDA comments:



> "He says the changes are needed because, in the past, the tax system had encouraged wealthy people to use small-business mechanisms to pay lower taxes than those in the middle class."
> 
> How about solving this problem by reducing the taxes on the middle class? Could be done if they wouldn't say no to hundreds of billions of resource infrastructure investment and letting the economy grow from the heart instead of from unicorns.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Canada, how's that multiculturalism working out for ya?

Multiculturalism in Canada: Women excluded from a construction site near mosques



> The leaders of two mosques pressured an entrepreneur to ensure that there were no women on construction sites near his places of worship on Friday prayers.
> 
> ...
> 
> The measure targets five women, four signalers and one engineer, who had to be reassigned elsewhere, according to information obtained via the TVA News Facebook account.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: link to MotherCorpse enclosed.

Cocaine, marijuana and cash used to buy votes in Saskatchewan First Nation election, report says



> The whistleblower in a drugs-for-votes scheme on a Saskatchewan First Nation says the corruption needs to stop now.
> 
> “I want people to know it’s OK to speak out. It’s been going on long enough,” Glenn Moosomin told CBC News in an interview from his North Battleford, Sask.. home Wednesday afternoon.


From the comments:



> Obviously the result of colonialism. We need a 56 million dollar inquiry and an apology from a tearful Justin.


Let's not forget the cheques!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Senior PMO official on leave after allegations by women of ‘inappropriate behaviour’



> A senior official at the Prime Minister’s Office is being investigated for inappropriate behaviour.
> 
> Claude-Eric Gagné, the deputy director of operations at the PMO, was placed on leave in November following accusations of inappropriate behaviour from women, Quebec’s TVA News reported.


Lessee...Pacetti, Andrews, Tootoo, Kang, Di Iorio, now Gagné.

JUTHDIN! JUTHDIN! JUTHDIN!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Senate passes bill to remove mention of 'barbaric cultural practices' from Harper-era law



> The Senate has approved a bill that would remove mention of “barbaric cultural practices” from a law that outlaws forced marriage.
> 
> Liberal Sen. Mobina Jaffer introduced the bill in December 2015, shortly after the Liberals won the federal election and less than six months after the previous Conservative government passed the so-called “Zero Tolerance for Barbaric Cultural Practices Act” into law.


'Cause calling a spade a spade is soooo offensive...


----------



## FeXL

Caution: link to MotherCorpse inside.

It'll be interesting to see how this "creative" accounting pans out with The Dope.

Hah.



> What do you know, a provincial Liberal gov't with some spine.
> 
> Drivers likely won't feel province's 2.33-cent-per-litre tax, since same revenue is merely being redirected
> 
> _New Brunswickers will start paying a 2.33-cent-per-litre carbon tax in April, but it's unlikely they will notice.
> 
> That's because the Brian Gallant government won't add that to existing taxes already paid at the pump, but will shift that amount from the existing 15.5-cent-per litre gas tax.
> 
> That means no net increase on the price of gas._​
> Of note, though, this inventive budgeting measure does nothing for manufacturing or home-heating tax relief.


Funny how MotherCorpse calls it "sleight of hand".

Also be interesting to see if the UCP could employ the same methodology once Red Rachel's gone.


----------



## SINC

Anyone surprised at this?

EDITORIAL: Liberals hiding deficit, second watchdog says | Toronto Sun


----------



## SINC

bump


----------



## SINC

bump again


----------



## SINC

One more try at a bump.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Soooouuuuiiieeee!

High-profile Liberal donor found to have swindled millions in immigration scheme



> In the tightly-knit world of Vancouver’s wealthy Chinese immigrants, Paul Se Hui Oei stood out for his ties to some of Canada’s most powerful politicians and his mastery of cultivating guanxi, or personal relationships, that attracted legions of Chinese clients eager for his assistance in gaining a legal foothold in Canada.
> 
> But behind closed doors, the authorities say, Oei, a prominent immigration consultant and philanthropist, ran an elaborate fraud scheme, pocketing millions from investors, including many Chinese citizens led to believe their investment would help them secure permanent residency in Canada. Instead, the authorities say, he spent the money on luxury cars, beauty pageants and donations to political parties.
> 
> “Everything he said were lies,” said Chen Wei, a Chinese immigrant who testified earlier this year in a case against Oei before a British Columbia Securities Commission panel. Chen’s family invested $1 million in Oei’s project, according to hearing transcripts.


Hey, where's my Priapus driving pal Piggy when the compassionate, intellectual left is caught red-handed with their hand in the money jar?

Sou!!!


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Anyone surprised at this?


Rhetorical question, right?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

DOWN: Trudeau’s Approval Rating Falls Into Negative Territory For First Time In Angus Reid Poll



> While the Trudeau Liberals recently won 3 out of 4 by-elections, there are signs that their growing ethical controversies and failures are starting to take a toll.
> 
> As many pointed out, the Liberals lost votes overall in the by-elections when compared to the 2015 election, while the Conservatives gained overall (though the Liberals did gain enough in one specific riding to take it from the Conservatives).
> 
> Now, it appears that the accumulated political damage on the government is impacting Justin Trudeau’s approval rating.


Better talk to his hair stylist...

Related:

Rex Murphy: When there's a Liberal ethics scandal, the 'commissioner' helpfully smothers it



> What is the point of a parliamentary office that is hesitant, tentative, and equivocal in its rulings? That leaves a prime minister’s reputation unsettled for a whole year?


Also related:

If there is anything a Liberal hates,



> It's a hunter with a rifle. Gang-bangers with hand-guns, not-so-much.
> 
> If the peons won't let you register them, then you change the law to make all firearms restricted and prohibited.


----------



## FeXL

New York City north?

Montreal moves to ban sale of sugary drinks inside city buildings



> Montreal is moving to ban the sale of sugary drinks in all of its municipal buildings and one of the city councillors behind the initiative hopes other communities will follow suit.
> 
> A motion that was passed this week aims to prohibit soda, sports drinks and other sweetened beverages from being sold at municipal installations such as administrative buildings, libraries and arenas.
> 
> The ban developed from a motion tabled by longtime Coun. Marvin Rotrand.
> 
> The motion aims to prohibit soda, sports drinks and other sweetened beverages from being sold at municipal installations.
> 
> In 2014, he introduced one that called on Quebec to give the city the power to tax sugary beverages, but it didn't have consensus. This time, his motion asking Ottawa to come up with a tax on sugary drinks had broader support, with public health in mind.
> 
> "This time, everyone was on board with the idea of a national excise tax," Rotrand said. "The feeling at Montreal council was it was legitimate for us to be the first to directly appeal to the government of Canada for this solution."
> 
> *Sugary drinks are linked to obesity and chronic diseases like Type 2 diabetes that go with it.*


But pot is fine...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Liberal unwillingness to condemn FGM is a sad political move



> Female genital mutilation is a brutal custom rooted in patriarchy.
> 
> Yet some in the Liberal government have shied away from calling it what it is, and missed a great opportunity not simply to condemn the practice but also to educate potential Canadians about the frightful effects it has on girls and women.


Mustn't burn any refugee/immigrant/Muslim (but I repeat myself) votes...


----------



## FeXL

There goes another narrative...

What hate crime statistics really say



> We’re often told that hate crimes against Muslims are on the rise,and that anti-Muslim bigotry is a growing problem in Canada.
> 
> This is the argument behind the Trudeau government’s dubious motion, M-103, which seeks to use a “whole-of-government approach” to eliminate the undefined and politically-loaded concept of “Islamophobia”.
> 
> “The government should recognize the need to quell the increasing public climate of hate and fear; condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination,” reads the text.
> 
> But is it true there is an “increasing public climate of hate andfear”?
> 
> Have Canadians really responded to the rise of jihadist terrorism with hatred and bigotry towards Muslims in our communities?
> 
> *The answer, by and large, is no.*


Guess whose bold...


----------



## Macfury

A few years ago I compared "sugary drinks" to soda. In almost every case, fruit juice out-caloried soda and sugar levels were comparable. So more obesity and comparable sugar:



> *Grape Juice*
> Grape juice contains more sugar than any other type of juice. Whether you make it yourself or buy no-sugar-added juice in a box, you’ll still be getting plenty of fructose. A 12 ounce glass of grape juice contains over 58 grams of sugars. This is 20 grams more than a 12 ounces can of Coca-Cola. At 240 calories per 12 ounces, it’s also the fruit with the highest caloric value.
> 
> *Apple Juice*
> Although it’s sometimes recommended as a good choice for toddlers and children, apple juice is quite high in sugar. A 12 ounce serving contains 39 grams of sugar -- just 1 gram less than in a glass of soda. That’s about 10 teaspoons of sugar.
> 
> *Orange Juice*
> Although orange juice is high in sugar, it contains less sugar than grape and apple juice. At 33 grams per 12 ounce serving, it falls slightly behind Coca-Cola. However, a glass of soda contains about 145 calories, while a glass of orange juice has 165 calories. So while you’re saving about 2 teaspoons of sugar, you’re still getting more calories overall with orange juice.


https://www.livestrong.com/article/450038-juices-with-the-highest-sugar-content/



FeXL said:


> New York City north?
> 
> Montreal moves to ban sale of sugary drinks inside city buildings
> 
> 
> 
> But pot is fine...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> A few years ago I compared "sugary drinks" to soda. In almost every case, fruit juice out-caloried soda and sugar levels were comparable. So more obesity and comparable sugar:


As a parent of a 6-year-old, I've had quite an education in efforts to find reduced sugar juices and drinks for my child. I think I've done more for public education around the issue just by standing for ridiculous amounts of time reading ingredient labels in the grocery store, with people wondering what the hell I'm doing. 

The worst are those products that are low on sugar, and you're just about to toss it into the cart, when you spot the artificial sweeteners used in place.

And down here in Mexico, I've seen far too many kids who have gone from the boob or the bottle direct to Coke, Pepsi, and other fruit-flavoured sodas. Good thing dental care down here is high-quality and very economical.


----------



## Macfury

I was always a label reader for my kid and still am years later. Have seen pop swigging four-year-olds having teeth extracted.



CubaMark said:


> As a parent of a 6-year-old, I've had quite an education in efforts to find reduced sugar juices and drinks for my child. I think I've done more for public education around the issue just by standing for ridiculous amounts of time reading ingredient labels in the grocery store, with people wondering what the hell I'm doing.
> 
> The worst are those products that are low on sugar, and you're just about to toss it into the cart, when you spot the artificial sweeteners used in place.
> 
> And down here in Mexico, I've seen far too many kids who have gone from the boob or the bottle direct to Coke, Pepsi, and other fruit-flavoured sodas. Good thing dental care down here is high-quality and very economical.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> A few years ago I compared "sugary drinks" to soda. In almost every case, fruit juice out-caloried soda and sugar levels were comparable. So more obesity and comparable sugar:


Good read. Thx.


----------



## FeXL

Thirty-two month sentence? He'll be out in less than 24, along with a tearful apology & 8 figure cheque from Juthdin.

Canadian-Iranian Man Sentenced To Prison Over U.S. Sanctions



> A Canadian-Iranian man has been sentenced to 32 months in prison for conspiring to violate U.S. sanctions against Iran.
> 
> U.S. prosecutors said Ali Soofi, a dual citizen, "conspired to export military items from the United States to Iran, both directly and through transshipment to intermediary countries, without a license" between 2014 and 2016.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

For Trudeau, Alberta's oil emissions deserve scrutiny and restriction, but not Bombardier's



> The Canadian Taxpayers Federation recently asked the Trudeau government for “upstream and downstream” emissions analyses it had conducted before handing over large cheques to Bombardier and Ford.
> 
> The government’s response to our inquiry was as nonsensical as the decision to fund those two companies in the first place.


The punch line?



> The federal government responded to our inquiry by telling us that it didn’t do any emissions analysis before handing over $102 million to Ford. Apparently Ottawa isn’t worried about emissions that come from things that have a Ford logo on them.
> 
> The federal government also told us the emissions analysis it conducted related to Bombardier is confidential as it was part of materials that went to cabinet.


Quelle surprise...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Close enough for gov't work...

Department leaves veterans in ‘financial limbo,’ behind on half its targets



> Canada’s Veterans Affairs Department is behind on half of its performance targets, department results released last month reveal, which opposition MPs call unacceptable and a “horrible performance” built off systemic problems.
> 
> Veterans Affairs missed 14 of 26 targets for the 2016-17 year, filing 54 per cent under “attention required,” leading to delayed decisions on veteran services like career training, long-term care, and disability support.


They'll all get performance bonuses anyway. What do they care?


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> I was always a label reader for my kid and still am years later. Have seen pop swigging four-year-olds having teeth extracted.


I regularly read nutrition labels for calories and a couple other items. Is this uncommon?


----------



## FeXL

Good read on why the CWB was created & the restrictions it placed on Western farmers.

Western wheat farmers expect an apology — and perhaps a tear — from Trudeau



> I am writing because I’m wondering when and where Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will draw the line on apologies, and on paying compensation for the hardship and oppression of Canadian citizens.
> 
> Perhaps, he will want to make his way to an Alberta farm meeting, apologize on behalf of the government, shed a tear, and settle up for the financial losses suffered by thousands of western grain growers.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> For Trudeau, Alberta's oil emissions deserve scrutiny and restriction, but not Bombardier's


It's an oddity of activist politics. Most transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions are from burning fuel, not oil wells and pipelines. But activists don't regularly organize mass protests against auto or jet manufacturing plants and subsidies. Go figure.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

When the Liberal's do it, it's not illegal.

Liberals unethical pick for new ethics commissioner



> Talk about a bogus appointment process.
> 
> The Liberals have known for ages that ethics commissioner Mary Dawson was due to leave her post in early January. They were, after all, the ones who extended her appointment more than once by six month increments.
> 
> So why then did they use such rushed, last-minute tactics to appoint Dawson’s successor? The whole process that unfolded this past week on Parliament Hill has opposition MPs and expert observers crying foul.


Related:

Liberals’ proposed candidate for Ethics Commissioner has record of eight unethical and questionable actions as Integrity Commissioner



> Today, Democracy Watch detailed the eight unethical and questionable actions of Mario Dion, the Trudeau Cabinet’s proposed candidate for Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, when he was Integrity Commissioner.
> 
> Democracy Watch called on all MPs to show personal integrity and concern for government ethics by voting to reject Dion. Even Liberal MPs should be very disturbed by Mr. Dion’s record, and by the fact that he was chosen through a secretive, PMO-controlled, partisan process that failed to consult opposition party leaders as required by the Parliament of Canada Act.
> 
> _"Given his many unethical and questionable actions when he was Integrity Commissioner, Mario Dion would likely be just as bad a lapdog as Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson who has let 95 percent of alleged violators off the hook, including many Cabinet ministers who clearly violated federal ethics rules,” said Duff Conacher. “If MPs have personal integrity, they will vote to reject the Trudeau Cabinet’s proposal to make Mario Dion the new Ethics Commissioner because of Dion’s record of wrongdoing, and because the Cabinet handpicked Dion through a secretive, partisan process."_​


h/t SDA


----------



## FeXL

None of this is news. On a variation of this, a former room mate of mine from university, a Chinese international student from Hong Kong, married a white female long enough to get Canadian citizenship then promptly divorced her.

A new troubling trend for international students coming to Canada



> According to Canadian law, if an international student is married, they can bring their spouse over and the spouse can acquire a work permit for the duration of the student’s period of study. So the young man’s side takes on the financial burden, while the young woman gets her “husband” across and completes her four-year degree.
> 
> Assuming the age of the fiance is about 18 to 22 years at the time they arrive, over the next four or five years they become permanent residents. After that they get divorced, at around the age of 23-26 years. They then find their original life partners and settle their life in Canada. Both sides part ways happily and go their separate ways. A good business transaction indeed.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Stunning that his magic hair didn't hypnotize the Japanese like it does the MSM. Probably didn't have the right socks on, either.

In wake of Trudeau's summit no-show, Japan raises possibility of a Trans-Pacific Partnership without Canada



> Though Prime Minister Justin Trudeau balked at finalizing the Trans-Pacific Partnership last month, Japanese officials say the other countries in the trade deal could decide to push ahead on it without Canada.


What a sad joke that has been perpetrated upon this otherwise fine country of ours...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Paucity of Pipelines Cost Canada $72 Million a Day



> At the currrent rate that Canada gets per barrel for its oil, we will earn 26 Billion less than than World prices for our oil this year because of the rail bottleneck. Pipelines will solve that problem for Alberta & other Canadian Governments who are desperate for revenue.


----------



## FeXL

So, we have a wood-burning stove in our sun room, which has no other source of heat in it save what spills over from the rest of the house. It can get pretty cool in the winter. 

For this privilege we have to first search for an insurance company who will actually insure us, then pay a $600 premium on our house insurance, despite the fact that, per regular inspections, the installation is correct in every way. These days, we probably burn less than a 1/4 cord of wood/year.

A number of years ago (10-ish?) our power went out for a couple of hours one winter afternoon, then overnight, then a few hours the next day. As I recall it was not terribly cold but well below freezing, probably around -10. The first power interruption didn't change much save we cooked supper on the propane grille. The second interruption the house started cooling off. At the time we didn't have a generator.

We tried to turn the power outage into some fun for the littluns so I fired up the wood stove, everybody moved into the sun room with their air mattresses, sleeping bags & coal oil lantern (yes, left overs from when mom & dad moved from the farm) & we spent the night there. Sun room was nice & toasty, kept the balance of the house from freezing & we had a mid-winter campout with the kids. Next morning rolls around, I put a kettle on the wood stove, we heat up some water & have oatmeal & hot chocolate for breakfast. It was actually great fun & a positive learning experience.

Soon after the power came on, stayed that way for a couple hours, went out once more for a few hours & then back on to stay. The wood stove ran the whole time, providing real & psychological warmth.

If we would not have had the wood stove, there was a good chance the house water works would have frozen, we would not have an experience that the kids still talk about today & the lessons they learned about food, warmth & being prepared would would never have happened.

Jes' sayin'...

Climate crusaders are close to banning something that can save your family’s life



> The power has suddenly gone out. Are you ready for an emergency?
> 
> According to the federal government’s “Get Prepared” website, “you need to be able to take care of your family for at least 72 hours” if the grid goes down and official help is unavailable. Could you survive at home alone in winter without electricity, gas, cell service and water for three days?
> 
> Stockpiling water, non-perishable food, batteries, medications and a first-aid kit are all necessities, of course. But what if there’s a blizzard outside — how will you stay warm? Then your only option, says Ottawa, is to use a “non-electric stove or heater, or a wood-burning fireplace.”
> 
> How strange, then, that some of Canada’s biggest cities are removing this option. By banning fireplaces and wood stoves, Montreal and Vancouver are denying citizens the means to keep warm during a catastrophic ice storm or similar emergency. It’s apparently more important to reduce emissions than it is to allow humans the ability to save themselves in a crisis.


Idiots.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on those rat bastard Republicans who want you to keep more of your hard-earned cash, along with the fallout on Canadians.

Trump’s tax tsunami is about to wallop Canadian jobs and investment



> A tax tsunami is set to wallop the global economy this week as the U.S. proceeds with its most extensive tax package since 1986. U.S. tax reform will have an immense impact on the global economy, not just in terms of investment but also corporate bond flows and the distribution of government tax revenues. As America’s largest trading partner, Canada’s economy is about to get heavily side-swiped.


But do you think Sock Boy will even address this?

Unlikely...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Whither my Priapus propelled porcine pal Piggy?

Soooouuuuuiiiiieeeeee!!!!!

Government spent close to $10K on Jays tickets for Canada 150 and travel ‘influencers’



> It looks like the federal government was listening when somebody sang, “Take me out to the ball game, take me out with the crowd.”
> 
> Documents tabled in Parliament last week show the government spent thousands on Toronto Blue Jays tickets in 2017. The biggest chunk was spent taking 90 private sector, technology and government partners from B.C., the United States and Mexico to watch the Jays take on the Seattle Mariners on June 11, 2017. In Seattle.
> 
> The event was billed as a part of Canada 150 celebrations.
> 
> The documents detail how much the government spent on sporting events since September 2016. Global Affairs Canada came out as the big spender for its Canada Day at Safeco Field event. It billed the gathering as an effort “to support ongoing engagement and broaden public diplomacy” — by hosting key contacts in group suites at the ball game.


Sou!!!

And, while we're talking lying Liberals, let's talk about that holiday last year that was so steeped in BS, I mean, innocence...

Ethics watchdog says Trudeau vacation on private island broke conflict rules



> Federal ethics commissioner Mary Dawson has concluded that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau violated conflict of interest rules when he vacationed last Christmas at the private Bahamian island owned by the Aga Khan.
> 
> Dawson says in a report today that Trudeau’s vacation last year, and two other family vacations not previously made public, broke conflict of interest law that prohibits a minister or any member of their family from accepting gifts or “advantages” that could reasonably be seen as influencing government decisions.


Related:

Justin Trudeau’s Bahamas vacation broke multiple ethics rules: commissioner



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau broke multiple federal ethics rules when he accepted a ride on the Aga Khan’s private helicopter and stayed on his private island over the holidays in 2016, the ethics commissioner has ruled.
> 
> In a ruling posted on the website of the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Wednesday at noon, Mary Dawson said that her investigation into two complaints about the trip found that Trudeau violated the Conflict of Interest Act when he and his family accepted the trip.


Souieeeeee!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Hey, Climate Barbie!

Only hybrid or electric cars for cabinet as Ottawa aims to cut emissions



> The federal government is going to stop buying internal combustion cars for cabinet ministers starting next year, a new federal environment plan says.
> 
> The Greening Government Strategy released Tuesday sets a goal to cut emissions from federal government buildings and vehicles by at least 80 per cent compared with 2005 levels by 2050.


<snort> Best way to lower emissions from the federal buildings is to fire the lot of 'em...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

He actually says stuff that isn't stupid? :yikes:

More stupid stuff Justin Trudeau says



> Justin Trudeau says a lot of stupid things, but this week, the Prime Minister has outdone himself.
> 
> *According to Trudeau, ISIS fighters can be “an extraordinarily powerful voice” in Canada.*
> 
> In a year-end interview with CTV, Trudeau was asked several questions about national security – revealing the Liberal government’s various blind spots when it comes to combatting Islamist terrorism.
> 
> First, when asked about his government’s decision to extend an apology and $10.5 million settlement to convicted al-Qaida terrorist Omar Khadr, Trudeau sounded indignant.
> 
> “I am frustrated and outraged about having to make that settlement,” said Trudeau.
> 
> “Frustrated and outraged”?
> 
> It was Trudeau’s government that decided to settle with Khadr and not fight back in court.


M'bold.

Oh, yeah. They've got a ton to say. And it all starts with BOOM!!!

Can't really expect a substitute drama teacher & snowboard instructor to comprehend international politics now though, can we? :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Like Bugs would say: What a maroon...


----------



## FeXL

Ohhhh, Piggy!

Soooouuuuueeeeeiiiii!!!

Billionaire Barry Sherman was trying to quash probe into political fundraiser he held for Justin Trudeau



> Only days before he died, Toronto billionaire Barry Sherman was attempting to quash an investigation into a political fundraiser he held for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that allegedly ran afoul of lobbying rules.
> 
> Sherman, who was found dead along with his wife, Honey, at their house on Friday, had been under investigation by lobbying commissioner Karen Shepherd since October 2016, and was facing a possible five-year ban from lobbying because of the fundraiser he hosted during the last federal election.
> 
> The lobbyists' code of conduct prohibits registered lobbyists, such as Sherman, from lobbying office holders they helped get elected.
> 
> Last May, Sherman filed a lawsuit in Federal Court to block the lobbying commissioner's probe into him and his pharmaceutical company Apotex because it had been "taken and pursued in bad faith and/or for an improper purpose."


----------



## SINC

This is exactly what our country must do to rid ourselves of the boy PM and set our future course.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2017/12/24/time-canadian-patriotic-movement/


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

My tax $$ at work.

Santa is moving to the South Pole 



> Thanks to rising global temperatures, rapidly melting Arctic ice and growing human operations in the North, Santa Claus has signed an agreement with the International community to relocate his village next year to operate in an exclusive zone in the South Pole.


Un-fukcing-believable...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Further on The Dope.

Ten year-end facts Canadians need to know



> As we end 2017, here are 10 year-end facts Canadians should understand and consider as we enter 2018:
> 
> • The total tax bill for the average Canadian family will exceed $35,000 in 2017, or 42.5 per cent of their income—more than what the average family spends on housing, food and clothing combined.


XX)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Once again the Liberals reveal how completely out of touch they are with the average Canadian.

Canadians prioritize prosecution over rehabilitation for jihadi suspects: poll



> Nearly two-thirds of Canadians say the government should prosecute and lay criminal charges against individuals suspected of being involved with jihadi groups overseas, instead of focusing on rehabilitating them when they return to Canada, according to a new survey.
> 
> A Nanos poll found that 62 per cent of respondents support prosecution of Canadians suspected of jihadi involvement abroad, as opposed to 28 per cent who say the government should prioritize rehabilitation and deradicalization; 10 per cent said they were unsure.


----------



## FeXL

Nice!

Public Review Ruling



> Hello. Welcome to the Ruling announcement. The quick summary? We won (mostly).
> 
> The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) will be allowed to release the Electrical Code on schedule in January but boy, did they pay a crushing price for that.
> 
> The hearing pretty much flattened CSA. They lost their jurisdiction arguments, they lost their Serious Issues arguments, they lost their Irreparable Harm arguments -frankly, CSA lost all of their arguments and positions on all matters of substance and consequence. Catching perhaps a 5% reprieve with the Code itself, and that only for a few months’ until the Manson appeal, is a pittance relative to their losses in this Ruling.
> 
> This is a really, _really_ big win for us. With this Ruling, we’re in a dominating position in Court, and CSA’s standards racket is now on death watch. Yes, it’s that big.


Any time some power hungry bastard gets their butt handed to them in a court of law, it's sweet.

Even sweeter is when it's power hungry gov't bastards...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Well, well, well...

Joshua Boyle, Canadian hostage in Afghanistan, arrested and faces list of charges in Ottawa



> Joshua Boyle, the Canadian man who was held hostage with his American wife and children for five years in Afghanistan and Pakistan, has been arrested and charged with assault, unlawful confinement and other offences that are alleged to have occurred in the weeks since his dramatic rescue from captivity in October.


Fifteen charges in what, little over two months? Been a busy boy. Guess that 5 years of Islam took better'n anybody thought...

Related:

Canadian man who was held hostage by the Taliban in Afghanistan with his wife and three children is arrested and charged with sexual assault



> Ex-hostage, Joshua Boyle, who was recently freed from captivity in Afghanistan with his wife and children, has been arrested on 15 charges, including sexual assault.
> 
> Boyle, of Canada, his American wife Caitlan, and their three children were rescued last October in Pakistan, five years after the couple was abducted by a Taliban-linked militant group while on a backpacking trip in neighboring Afghanistan.
> 
> The children - 2- and 4-year-old boys and an infant daughter - were all born in captivity.
> 
> Authorities said the charges against the 34-year-old include eight counts of assault, two accounts of sexual assault and two counts of unlawful confinement.


Trudeau's unforgivable audience with Joshua Boyle



> Canadians have the right to know whether Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is suddenly playing Crazy 8s with a euchre deck.
> 
> It’s a legitimate question.
> 
> After all, what prime minister in his right mind would meet in his parliamentary office with a man who was once married to Zaynab Khadr, the infamous, jihad-endorsing sister of Guantanamo Bay poster boy and terrorist, Omar Khadr, now a rich former al-Qaeda bombmaker thanks to $10-plus million in taxpayers’ money for Canada not riding to his rescue soon enough?
> 
> That, alone, is a good enough reason for any PM to steer clear.


$10.5 million cheques all around!!!

WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL?

Joshua Boyle charged with sex assault, forcible confinement



> Joshua Boyle, rescued along with his family in October after five years in captivity in Afghanistan, is now in an Ottawa jail on charges of sexual assault, forcible confinement and administering a noxious drug.
> 
> Boyle, 34, spent New Year’s Day at the Innes Road jail after Ottawa police arrested him after an alleged series of disturbing crimes dating back to Oct. 14 — two days after Boyle called his family in Canada to tell them he had been freed.


Two whole days!!!

This complete episode stunk right from the get go...


----------



## SINC

This Gas station owner in Spruce Grove, Alberta reflects the sentiments of most Albertans with his station's sign. Good on him! :clap:


----------



## SINC

Canada's joint task force for peace.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> This Gas station owner in Spruce Grove, Alberta reflects the sentiments of most Albertans with his station's sign. Good on him! :clap:


Nice!!!


----------



## FeXL

Further on $15/hr fallout.

Tim Hortons franchise to cut paid breaks, benefits over minimum wage hike



> The document, a copy of which was obtained by Postmedia Network, details various changes to its policies “due to the increase of wages to $14.00 minimum wage on January 1, 2018, then $15.00 per hour on January 1, 2019, as well as the lack of assistance and financial help from our Head Office and from the Government.”
> 
> “Breaks will no longer be paid,” it states and goes on to give examples of how each shift will be calculated. “A 9 hour shift will be paid for 8 hours and 20 minutes. 8 hour shift will be paid for 7 hours and 30 minutes…” and so on.


I know, I know. Those greedy franchisees...


----------



## FeXL

*Becausue it's 2015!*

'Deprogram' radical Islamists. How?



> Despite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s naïve assumption we can “de-radicalize” these fighters and “re-integrate” them into our society, the reality is far more complicated.


Understatement of the year.

More:



> Some interpretations of Islam, including those preferred by fundamentalists and extremists, call for Muslims to fight and kill to spread their faith.
> 
> With or without an official Caliphate, millions of Muslims around the world believe in this disturbing interpretation of Islam.
> 
> We must face the fact that some Muslims, including some in North America, believe their religion requires them to destroy our civilization.
> 
> “De-radicalizing” these zealots will be no simple task.


It'll have to come from the heart or it will have to happen by itself, right Juthdin?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Just one Liberal failure after another...

Trudeau's carbon scheme already a $16-billion failure



> Ottawa and the provinces will rake in more than $16 billion from carbon pricing between 2018 and 2020, while failing to achieve the Trudeau government’s 2020 greenhouse gas reduction target.
> 
> My $16-billion estimate — the bulk of which will be paid by Canadians in higher taxes and prices for most goods and services — is a conservative one.
> 
> It doesn’t factor in the full financial impact of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s mandatory minimum national carbon price of $10 per tonne of emissions, which kicked in Jan. 1, rising to $50 per tonne in 2022.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Trudeau government has already conceded in its recent report to the United Nations under the Paris climate accord, that Canada won’t achieve Trudeau’s target of reducing emissions to 17% below 2005 levels by 2020.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Piggy! Where you been, man? Out for a cruise in your electric Priapus? How long does the battery in that thing last in -20° Globull Warming? Can you git all the way 'cross town afore it dies? Or is that why you haven't been posting much here lately, yer pushing it back home?

Here's another little article for ya on the wasteful, profligate, Liberals. Sou!!!

Why our intellectual class made Canada 150 the worst birthday ever



> What’s your favourite Canada 150 moment? The $5.6-million temporary Ottawa skating rink that bans hockey, figure skating, cellphones and roughhousing? The tedious CBC series that supposedly “snubbed” Nova Scotia and French-Canadians? The “Cultural Appropriation Prize” and subsequent white-guilt meltdown? The Duck To Nowhere? So many memories. What a shame I’ll be dead for Canada 200.


More:



> It’s subsidized by the government of Canada, of course — part of the *$500 million earmarked to these random junkets*. Indeed, half the train’s passengers seem to be repping, cheerleading or bankrolling their own Canada 150 government-backed feel-goodery. *There’s so much taxpayer money sloshing up and down the aisle that you can practically feel it wash up against your ankles when the train starts or stops.*


My bold.

Hell, I feel better already!


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Further on $15/hr fallout.
> 
> Tim Hortons franchise to cut paid breaks, benefits over minimum wage hike
> 
> I know, I know. Those greedy franchisees...


You know, there's lots of gloom-and-doom in that Tim Horton's letter, for example, but absolutely nothing of actual facts. No discussion of current profitability. Not even conjecture as to what might be the real-world impact on profits. Just things like _“Many of our store owners are left no alternative but to implement cost-saving measures in order to survive.”_

What does that mean? Is there an honest-to-goodness threat to survivability? A possible reduction in profits? Where's the spreadsheet? If the minimum wage hike temporarily cuts profits by a percentage point or two, is that really worth these apocalyptic headlines?

Here's a perspective from an economist who went beyond the headline:

*Media get it wrong on Bank of Canada minimum wage study*

Reading either of these headlines or the stories that follow, you could be forgiven for not knowing that the cited Bank of Canada research note had a positive conclusion about the effect of minimum wage increases on workers. A major claim of the Bank’s note is that, for workers, the benefits of increasing the minimum wage outweigh the costs in terms of labour income. First of all, the Bank is not predicting 60,000 pink slips but merely a slowdown in continued job growth. The 60,000 figure is a national, annual one and represents just 0.3% of total employment. Monthly job growth has at times exceeded this number.

More importantly, the Bank found that the costs of projected (remember these are still only projections) lower employment are outweighed by the benefits from higher economy-wide wage income stemming directly from the minimum wage increase. The authors write, “On net, however, real labour income should be higher following the implementation of these measures relative to otherwise. This is because the 0.7 per cent increase in the level of aggregate real wages more than offsets the 0.3 per cent decrease in total hours worked.”

(The claim is only moderated by some further assumptions. The Bank’s model predicts economy-wide consumption decreasing due to higher interest rates, a knock-on effect of higher inflation caused by minimum wage hikes. I personally am skeptical that interest rates would rise automatically due to a tiny 0.1% increase in inflation, especially one coming after years of largely below-target inflation.)

This analysis would have had a very different reception if these stories had an alternate headline like “Bank of Canada finds raising the minimum wage will benefit workers.”

This is not the first time the media have gotten worked up about the wrong numbers.

(Read the full article here: Rozworski)​


----------



## Macfury

And you're the one to judge how business owners should spend and invest their money? Give me a break!


----------



## Rps

CubaMark, I think the news media really did drop the ball on the BoC note, however the Tim Horton’s issue is another matter. The Brazilian holding company who owns Tim’s does not allow franchises to raise prices on their products. However, there has been much chatter by franchisees about price gouging of supplies and restrictive purchase practices with the HO. This is the root cause of many of the franchisees frustration and in Ontario they appear to be lashing out. Wynne in her “wise-dom” dropped a nice photo moment in the “let them pick on me” threat......I noticed, however that no mention was made of the practices of Tim’s ( and probably Burger King and all other chains the Brazilians own ) Brazilian Owners ..... additionally, which may not be as sexy in the headlines, are the benefit upgrades the province has placed on these small business owners.....


----------



## CubaMark

Rps, many good points. All I'm saying is the "woe is me" narrative would be better assessed if the business case was made clearer. The franchise owners do themselves no favours in the P.R. department when they don't back up their position with numbers.

I'm no fan of Wynne's Liberals (privatization = stooopid) nor Trudeau's Liberals. It's just become rather difficult to accurately assess any policy decision or development in the economy when the Right wingers can do nothing more than complain about hairstyles, socks and a supposed lisp.


----------



## Macfury

I'm _only_ a fan of Wynne's privatization--in principle. In execution it has been idiotic.

The franchisees shouldn't even have to back up their reasons for struggling with a minimum wage hike. Maybe they're being squeezed on price, but even if they weren't, why should they be expected to raise prices just to accommodate the policies of a ninny like Wynne?

Work has a value and now it is overpriced in Ontario--that will have a lot of ramifications.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Work has a value and now it is overpriced in Ontario--that will have a lot of ramifications.


You are incorrect. Labour's share of productivity gains has been steadily falling over the past 3 or 4 decades at least. Costs of living continue to rise, and wages are not following suit. And it's not just the policies of a "ninny like Wynne" - in case you haven't been paying attention, efforts to raise the minimum wage to $15/hr have been happening all over the US and Canada during the past couple of years. And naysayers like yourself seem to have wilfully dismissed the excellent work done in 2016 by the National Employment Law Project:

*Raise Wages, Kill Jobs? Seven Decades of Historical Data Find No Correlation Between Minimum Wage Increases and Employment Levels*

The results were clear: these basic economic indicators show no correlation between federal minimum-wage increases and lower employment levels, even in the industries that are most impacted by higher minimum wages. 

To the contrary, in the substantial majority of instances (68 percent) overall employment increased after a federal minimum-wage increase. In the most substantially affected industries, the rates were even higher: in the leisure and hospitality sector employment rose 82 percent of the time following a federal wage increase, and in the retail sector it was 73 percent of the time. 

Moreover, the small minority of instances in which employment—either overall or in the indicator sectors—declined following a federal minimum-wage increase all occurred during periods of recession or near recession. 

That pattern strongly suggests that the few instances of such declines in employment are better explained by the overall national business cycle than by the minimum wage.

(NELP)​


----------



## Rps

MacFury, I’m not a believer in a “minimum” wage as much as I am in a “living” wage. Which means some cities cost more to live in than others and wages should be reflective of that point. No one can live in Toronto on $11.40 per hour. Here in Windsor a family of two may be comfortable on a combined wage of $30 per hour. The issue is most employees work at mom and pop type businesses....and if they can’t afford to purchase goods from those places, those places won’t be around long. There was a time when the minimum wage was around $4 per hour, they screamed then as well....but guess what the economy grew. Wage increases do not kill businesses as much as dumb governmental policy and tax structure. In Ontario our green polices, while maybe on the right track, were botched to biblical proportions.....where I live, which has got to be the greenhouse capital of Canada, many are moving south of the border...not because of wage costs, but tax and hydro costs.


----------



## Macfury

The answer to botched government policies and tax structure is not to unload the cost of a so-called "living wage" onto business owners and consumers. If you can't afford to live in Windsor, then move out. If businesses are hurting to the point that they can't staff their businesses, they will raise their wages. If the government has botched the business climate so badly that businesses are not sustainable, they'll follow the evacuating citizens.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> .... If the government has botched the business climate so badly that businesses are not sustainable, they'll follow the evacuating citizens.


Ummmm... yeah. Well, then there's this:

*Unemployment rate tumbles to 5.7% to reach lowest mark in more than 40 years*

In December, the unemployment rate dropped to 5.7 per cent, down from 5.9 per cent the month before, to reach its lowest mark since comparable data became available in 1976. The rate fell as the economy generated 78,600 net new positions, including 23,700 full-time jobs.

Looking at 2017 as a whole, employment rose 2.3 per cent for its fastest growth rate in 15 years. Over the past 12 months, the economy added 422,500 jobs with the gains driven by 394,200 new full-time positions, the agency's labour force survey said.

In December 2016, the unemployment rate was 6.9 per cent, the report said. The last time the jobless rate was 5.8 per cent was October 2007.

Several analysts said Friday's solid labour report might be enough to encourage Bank of Canada governor Stephen Poloz to introduce another interest-rate hike later this month. Poloz has raised the rate twice since the summer, citing the stronger economy.

"It looks like as much as Canadian economic growth has softened a little bit over the second half of the year, the labour market is just still rolling right on," said BMO senior economist Robert Kavcic.

(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)​


----------



## Rps

I see our ideological differences strike again. No worries!


----------



## Rps

CubaMark, I think the ride is about over. Much of our growth has to do with that of our major customer, the U.S.. I see storm clouds on the horizon, Wall Street is under a delusion that the market will soar for ever...but we here and the U.S. have either contracted or assumed debt loads we can not handle in the mid to long term. I’ve been telling my children to, as much as possible, not run any debt up. Might be a good year to move from a share portfolio to a GIC base. When the toll comes then we will see large layoffs... and mom and pop shops will be the first to fall. Both our federal and provincial governments ( here in Ontario ) appear to be tone deaf and not well versed in fiscal and monetary demand risk management.


----------



## Macfury

And this has what to do with rps's analysis of the economy in Windsor?



CubaMark said:


> Ummmm... yeah. Well, then there's this:
> 
> *Unemployment rate tumbles to 5.7% to reach lowest mark in more than 40 years*
> 
> In December, the unemployment rate dropped to 5.7 per cent, down from 5.9 per cent the month before, to reach its lowest mark since comparable data became available in 1976. The rate fell as the economy generated 78,600 net new positions, including 23,700 full-time jobs.
> 
> Looking at 2017 as a whole, employment rose 2.3 per cent for its fastest growth rate in 15 years. Over the past 12 months, the economy added 422,500 jobs with the gains driven by 394,200 new full-time positions, the agency's labour force survey said.
> 
> In December 2016, the unemployment rate was 6.9 per cent, the report said. The last time the jobless rate was 5.8 per cent was October 2007.
> 
> Several analysts said Friday's solid labour report might be enough to encourage Bank of Canada governor Stephen Poloz to introduce another interest-rate hike later this month. Poloz has raised the rate twice since the summer, citing the stronger economy.
> 
> "It looks like as much as Canadian economic growth has softened a little bit over the second half of the year, the labour market is just still rolling right on," said BMO senior economist Robert Kavcic.
> 
> (Halifax Chronicle-Herald)​


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I see our ideological differences strike again. No worries!


If you can explain to me how paying someone more than their labour is worth can jump start the economy, I'm all ears.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> I’m not a believer in a “minimum” wage as much as I am in a “living” wage. Which means some cities cost more to live in than others and wages should be reflective of that point.


This would be a mandate to eliminate a large class of jobs. Jobs, at least upon entry, requiring so few skills that they are not worth such a wage.

I'm against unpaid internships, but the leap from that to a "living wage" seems unnecessarily damaging. Why can't very low skill jobs exist? Not everybody starts with valuable skills, but many would like to learn such skills without paying tuition.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

When it comes to cheque hand-outs, the Trudeau government easily tops Harper’s record



> After just over two years in office, the Trudeau Liberals have made nearly 9,000 spending announcements, easily eclipsing the 7,300 spending announcements made during the four-year majority government of their predecessors, the Harper Conservatives.
> 
> The combined value of all those Liberal announcements made in just over two years stands at $34.27 billion versus the combined value of four years of Harper announcements at $45.14 billion.


Woohoo!!!


----------



## Dr.G.

$500M recouped worldwide from tax cheats due to Panama Papers — but none of it in Canada | CBC News 

From my "cold dead hands" will the CRA get my cash.


----------



## FeXL

*Becasue it's 2015!*

Well, d'uh. The selfsame reason he does this with anybody. 'Cause he thought he could make political hay with it...

Why did Justin Trudeau rush into a photo-op with Joshua Boyle?



> The Boyle family ultimately released some photos, including a group shot with the PM. And there’s no political spin doctor or Liberal-friendly talking head who can ever make them go away.
> 
> Rachel Curran, a former director of policy for Harper, tweeted this to me on Jan. 3: “It remains an everlasting mystery why anyone in the PMO thought it would be a good idea to bring this guy in to meet Trudeau. The lack of judgment is astounding.”


Well, The Hairdo certainly cannot be accused of possessing good judgement often.


----------



## eMacMan

Not sure where to post this but it is a good editorial/opinion piece. Licia and I disagree here and there, but she is still a much better writer than most of the Lamestream hacks.

Corbella: What’s the beef with meat and nudity? Busybodies! | Calgary Herald


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Nope. No creeping sharia anywhere. Nosiree...

Canada: "Islamophobia Day"? Are You Kidding?



> The Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau, is being asked by the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM, formerly known as CAIR CAN) to designate January 29 as a "National Day of Remembrance and Action on Islamophobia." If he does, it is an indicator that the Islamists in Canada have succeeded in their program of political expansion and influence to the point of now being able publicly to manipulate the Prime Minister's Office.


Unfukcingbelievable...

More:



> In fact, in Canada, "Islamophobia" comes in only fourth behind crimes against Blacks, Gays and Jews. *Hate crimes against Muslims actually have dropped*, even as the overall number of hate crimes increased, according to the last Statistics Canada reporting.


Bold mine.

Related:

Canadians don't need a 'National Day' scolding us for being Islamophobic



> The federal government has been asked by the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM) to declare Jan. 29, the first anniversary of a murderous attack on a Quebec mosque that left six dead and several others injured, a “National Day of Remembrance and Action on Islamophobia.”
> 
> The word Islamophobia is something of a trigger to some of us, as NCCM knows well. The group was instrumental in the wording of Motion 103, where inclusion of “Islamophobia” sparked a passionate national debate (including over the potential to suppress criticism of Islam or certain Islamic people or groups if the same wording were to show up someday in law). *When M-103 backers refused to consider replacing Islamophobia with the more precise “anti-Muslim,” it alarmed Canadians concerned with free-speech erosion, including more than a few staunchly pluralistic Muslims.*


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

I've been wondering about this. Heading stateside is going to get far more interesting at the borders from now on.

Terrorist Threat on the U.S. Northern Border



> In a chapter on Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau, the book exposes how he had supported the Islamist cause on every possible occasion since 2008 when he was elected as a Member of Parliament. The chapter also examines how political entryism has enabled well known Islamists to operate inside of the Canadian cabinet and government. Further to this, the Prime Minister sent a video to a gathering of Islamist groups in Canada in which he noted their “shared beliefs, shared values, and shared vision.”
> 
> The book also exposes several of the Muslim Brotherhood front organizations, and their successful efforts in penetrating the education system, their charities and their methods of funding Islamist intimidation campaigns, especially regarding restrictions on free speech, as well as terrorism within and without Canada. All these and more, while attempting to reshape the country in their own image.
> 
> The book closes with a chapter titled “A Warning to America.” In this chapter, Quiggin notes that since 1999, the U.S. has nearly been attacked at least four times by Canadian based Islamist terrorists. Good luck and good intelligence have prevented these attacks. However, since the Islamist base in Canada has been allowed and even encouraged to grow exponentially, potential terrorists could cross easily to the U.S. If a terrorist attack in the U.S. will be committed by terrorists entering the U.S. from Canada, the political repercussions on both sides of the border are likely to be severe. This would include demands from politicians that the border is closed until the security situation in Canada improves.


----------



## CubaMark

*Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered by multiple killers, private investigators believe: source*

Private investigators believe that the billionaire Toronto couple found dead at their home in December were murdered by multiple killers, a source with direct knowledge of the parallel probe into their mysterious deaths told CBC Toronto.

The new information contradicts a widely circulated theory that Barry and Honey Sherman died as a result of a murder-suicide — a notion that is regarded as fiction by those who knew the Shermans well.

** * **​
The private investigators have found evidence that both Barry and Honey Sherman had their necks wrapped with leather belts that were then knotted around a handrail that runs adjacent to the pool, the source told CBC Toronto. A coroner previously ruled that the couple had died from "ligature neck compression," or strangulation.

Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto.

Their bodies were otherwise limp and their arms unbound when they were discovered, the source said. The day the Shermans were found police said that there was no evidence of forced entry into the home.

The team of private investigators believes that the Shermans were, in fact, killed on Dec. 13, two days before they were found. This conclusion is based on the fact that Honey was wearing the same clothes she was last seen in, on Dec. 13, according to the source.

Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said.

(CBC)​


----------



## Rps

“private probe” says it all. I’m sure more will come of this but unnamed sources are no sources at all.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> “private probe” says it all. I’m sure more will come of this but unnamed sources are no sources at all.


A coroner would find it fairly easy to determine time of death. I can't imagine some surprise finding regarding that from private investigators without access to the bodies.


----------



## FeXL

My tax dollars at work?

CBC Scandal: Peter Mansbridge, and the alleged NDAs/Hush Money Paid for By Us



> The media in Canada has known about this for over a year. I was recently let go from a contract with the National Post after my reporting prompted Peter Mansbridge’s lawyers to file a cease and desist letter.
> 
> This story is not about Mansbridge having inter-office flings. Nobody has said those affairs were not consensual. What’s important is that it looks like those affairs are protected by non-disclosure agreements that include paying the women involved with Mansbridge hush money.
> 
> This is an open secret, but lawyers and crisis management firms are not letting the story break. Hopefully this video can quicken the process.


Wouldn't surprise me one bit.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

New docs reveal CSIS foreign fighter concerns



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau shows little concern over the threat posed by battle-hardened jihadists returning to Canada. He even argues they can be rehabilitated. But documents unearthed from CSIS – some of them marked “top secret” – reveal alarming information about how Canada’s spy agency views the jihadist threat, what they’re doing to track it and their concerns about future attacks on home soil. Anthony Furey reports in this three-part series.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> If you can explain to me how paying someone more than their labour is worth can jump start the economy, I'm all ears.


A little perspective from Canada's minimum wage history:

*The 1960s backlash over the minimum wage*
_Fifty-five years ago, Ontario’s Conservative government introduced minimum-wage legislation — and businesses weren’t happy then, either_

​When the provincial government introduced hourly minimum-wage legislation in 1963, opponents of the move predicted doomsday scenarios. Diners going under. Staffing reductions. Costs passed on to consumers. Implementation of minimum tabs. And, worst of all, the demise of the 10-cent cup of coffee, a staple since the Second World War. 

“After all,” Dalton Waller, president of the Canadian Restaurant Association, observed in an interview with the Toronto Daily Star, “this is an industry that takes in many unskilled people, folks who don’t speak the Queen’s English or any English.” Waller also warned: “You start paying it to the fellow who does menial tasks and pretty soon everyone above him feels they ought to get more too.”

(TVO)​


----------



## Macfury

Perspective is everything. They were right in 1963 and they are right today.



CubaMark said:


> A little perspective from Canada's minimum wage history:
> 
> *The 1960s backlash over the minimum wage*
> _Fifty-five years ago, Ontario’s Conservative government introduced minimum-wage legislation — and businesses weren’t happy then, either_
> 
> ​When the provincial government introduced hourly minimum-wage legislation in 1963, opponents of the move predicted doomsday scenarios. Diners going under. Staffing reductions. Costs passed on to consumers. Implementation of minimum tabs. And, worst of all, the demise of the 10-cent cup of coffee, a staple since the Second World War.
> 
> “After all,” Dalton Waller, president of the Canadian Restaurant Association, observed in an interview with the Toronto Daily Star, “this is an industry that takes in many unskilled people, folks who don’t speak the Queen’s English or any English.” Waller also warned: “You start paying it to the fellow who does menial tasks and pretty soon everyone above him feels they ought to get more too.”
> 
> (TVO)​


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Not just right; alt-right. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

You've chosen well by following your post with the "confused" emoji.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> You've chosen well by following your post with the "confused" emoji.


Well... actually.... that's the "pondering" emoji. The "confused" emoji is this one: 

Hey, if you're looking for your glasses, try the top of your head :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

It's not an EhMac emoticon. It's the "Thinking Emoji" which indicates to the reader that the poster needs to think further about the matter and is soliciting community assistance to think it through.

If those glasses on your head were a snake they would have bit you.




CubaMark said:


> Well... actually.... that's the "pondering" emoji. The "confused" emoji is this one:
> 
> Hey, if you're looking for your glasses, try the top of your head :lmao:


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!

Great to see Glen McGregor's work taking down another Con leader. But I don't think he'll get much on Howdie Doodie!

https://youtu.be/q_V76k5xa4c


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Yes. A thousand times, YES!!!

Justin Trudeau: Maybe he is just really, really stupid



> Trudeau is just so bereft of functioning brain cells, he is unable to appreciate the consequences of his words and actions


YESSSSS!!!

Related:

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> Justin, son of Margaret.*
> 
> World business leaders thank @JustinTrudeau for his frank warning to avoid investment in Canada.
> "Too many corporations have put the pursuit of profit before the well-being of their workers ... but that approach won't cut it any more."
> -Trudeau#Cdnpolihttps://t.co/eRzd4emVKL
> — David Jacobs (@DrJacobsRad) January 24, 2018​


Unbelievable. What kind of special idiot does it take to warn world leaders not to invest in your country?

I know. A Progressive one...

Related, too:


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Keeping Canada 150 rink open will cost taxpayers an additional $2.5M



> It will cost taxpayers an additional $2.5 million to keep the Canada 150 ice rink on Parliament Hill open until the end of February, CTV News has learned.
> 
> The rink was originally slated to be taken down after New Year’s Eve, but Heritage Minister Melanie Joly opted to extend that term in November, prior to its opening. The cost of running the rink from Jan. 1-Feb. 28 has been pegged at $2.5 million, bringing the overall price tag for the rink to $8.1 million.


More:



> That amount includes the $2.4 million spent to actually build the facility, *as well as $1.3 million to cover all the costs of running a youth hockey tournament* with players from around the country.


I'd like to see a breakdown of those tournament costs. $1.3 million for a friggin' hockey tournament? :yikes:

Sooooouuuuiiiieeeeeeee!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Gotta keep that narrative running.

Ottawa poised to help newspapers in coming federal budget



> The federal government is signalling that the country's newspaper industry is set to get financial help, with the minister in charge of the file vowing of measures in this year's budget and officials ready to meet with publishers to talk details.
> 
> The exact value and details of the financing will be laid out in the budget that has been delivered in late March each of the past two years.
> 
> Expectations are high that the Liberals will allocate more money and change the rules around the Canada Periodical Fund to provide funding beyond print magazines, non-daily newspapers and digital periodicals as the industry looks for a viable business model in the digital age.
> 
> Heritage Minister Melanie Joly discussed the matter during a meeting Thursday with representatives of the Federation nationale des communications, a Quebec union that represents 6,000 people who work in culture and communications.


Related:

The Curious Case Of Maclean’s Government Grants



> According to figures disclosed by Canadian Heritage, Rogers Media’s Maclean’s magazine received virtually the same amount of government funding in 2017 as it had for years past, despite cutting nearly three quarters of its print issues at the start of that year.
> 
> For the annual funding cycle running from April 1, 2017, through March 31, 2018, Maclean’s was given a $1,492,069 grant from the Aid to Publishers program of the Canada Periodical Fund (CPF). That was just slightly less than the $1.5 million it had received in each of the previous six cycles, when it was a weekly magazine with approximately 44 issues per year. Last January, it had dropped down to a monthly.
> 
> The reason, according to Heritage spokesperson Jon Schofield, is that because of its high circulation, “Maclean’s could have received significantly more than $1.5 million in previous years, ‎if the program’s maximum of financial assistance had been higher. In 2017-2018, due to reduced paid circulation, the awarded amount is less than the maximum amount of financial assistance.”
> 
> In a way, that makes sense. But it also points to questions concerning the vagaries of a grant system that sits at the centre of Canadian magazine publishing — a system that, the Canadian Press reports today, the governing Liberals are expected to expand to take in daily newspapers and digital outlets.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The type of people Sock Boy gets photographed with.

Former Afghanistan terror hostage used rope in sexual attack and broomstick in assault on his return to Canada' as court orders he undergo 60-days of psychological tests



> The former Afghanistan hostage who was freed along with his wife and three children in October used ropes and a broomstick in a series of physical and sexual assaults, a court heard Friday.
> 
> Joshua Boyle was charged with 19 counts of assault, sexual assault, threatening to cause death and administering a noxious substance, according to CBC.CA.
> 
> The 34-year-old was arrested January 1 and initially charged with 15 counts of assault against two victims between October 14, the day he returned to Canada from imprisonment and December 30.
> 
> And when the new charges were read Friday, it was also revealed Boyle will be ordered to undergo a 60-day psychological assessment in Brockville, Ontario, before his next court appearance.


Related;

Nothing 'normal' about Joshua Boyle



> It would appear that Justin Trudeau’s controversial buddy, ex-Afghanistan hostage Joshua Boyle, is being sent off to have his head read.
> 
> Our prime minister should have done the same for himself before meeting at his Parliament Hill office last December with one of the ex-husbands of Guantanamo poster boy Omar Khadr’s sister.


More:



> We can see where this is heading — a “not criminally responsible” defence that, if accepted by a judge or jury, would see Boyle spending more time in psychiatric care but not a minute more in jail.


Yeppers.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Gotta keep that narrative running.


This kind of government support is so perverse. Consumers are already choosing the type of media they want to consume.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> This kind of government support is so perverse.


The word that stuck out for me in that first article was "union". This is nothing more than another Prog public service buyout.


----------



## FeXL

Huh. A Prog in a position of power bullying people.

Shocka...

Three former Green Party staffers accuse Elizabeth May of workplace bullying



> Three former Green Party staffers are accusing longtime leader Elizabeth May of workplace bullying, alleging she has created a toxic work environment with conduct that includes yelling at employees and putting them down in front of their colleagues.
> 
> Rob Rainer, a manager of six non-profit organizations before he served as the party’s interim executive director in 2014, said the Green Party has failed to address and prevent a pattern of “verbal and emotional” abuse by the 63-year-old leader.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Huh. A Prog in a position of power bullying people.
> 
> Shocka...
> 
> Three former Green Party staffers accuse Elizabeth May of workplace bullying


After seeing that disgraceful drunken "comedy" performance from her, it's no surprise.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## SINC

I will miss Brad Wall's poignant comments and criticisms of both Notley and Trudeau. (I went to school with Brad's dad.)

One can only hope the new premier is a good at pointing out the disasters that are the Alberta NDP and the federal Liberals.

'This is the new Saskatchewan': Brad Wall makes final speech before Scott Moe voted next premier - Saskatchewan - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

(from 2011)

Sex, pizza and politics with Justin Trudeau



> Justin Trudeau is engaging the youth vote. And if some of the 250 Liberal supporters at McMaster University’s Convocation Hall needed more convincing, Trudeau offered a small taste of what it’s like to be engaged in a political campaign.
> 
> “The intensity, the excitement of being in the middle of a political campaign — it’s heavy, it’s fun stuff,” started Trudeau. “There’s pizza, sex and all sorts of fun things.”


Ah, yes. The _consumate_ feminist...

Related?

So, I've been sitting on this for a few days now: Kinsella, who I trust about as far as I can throw him, claims to have a story.

#YOUTOO??? 



> Warren Kinsella aka the “Lying Jackal” is a dirt bag and pond scum all wrapped in a nauseating odor of fake sanctity. He is also the go-to guy for a certain sort of Canadian Liberal when there is a family crisis in the Party. He is good at putting out fires.
> 
> Over at his place today, (fully screenshotted as he is scummy enough to bury his mistakes), we have this wee gem:
> 
> —–
> 
> _“Before I board the plane, I hear from a former Prime Minister. I tell him what an honour it was to work for him – a man who married his high school sweetheart. A man whose conduct was beyond reproach. A man who never tolerated such conduct by his staff or his caucus or his cabinet. Ever.
> 
> “It was different, many years ago,” he says. “It was difficult for women to complain.”
> 
> He paused.
> 
> “Those days are gone,” he said. “And that’s a good thing.”_​


More:



> If it’s the same person who I’ve been told has multiple sworn affidavits against him, you can’t get bigger in Canada. I know one of the people who’s signature is on one of the affidavits.
> 
> This person has told me the contents of the affidavits. Explosive doesn’t even begin to describe it. I will not repeat what I was told here because haven’t personally seen them, and even if I had, I don’t want to make legal trouble for Warren.
> 
> What I will say…… if they do get out, they will destroy this persons very carefully crafted public image and reputation.


Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> There's some weird stuff floating around out there in recent hours. I'll just leave it to you to surf through and decide. If it's true -- and I have know way of knowing -- hold onto your socks.


‘Clearly a crisis’ of sexual harassment on Parliament Hill: Hajdu



> There has been a longstanding “crisis” of harassment on Parliament Hill that “allows and perpetuates” abusive behaviour in the workplace.
> 
> That was the message Employment Minister Patty Hajdu brought to the House of Commons on Monday as MPs returned for the first time since rising for winter break, and as debate kicked off on a new bill that will require federally-regulated workplaces to put harassment policies in place or face consequences, which could include fines or being named and shamed in the House of Commons.


Trudeau's male feminism isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card



> You’d almost think Justin Trudeau invented feminism, the way he struts about touting his credentials. This was most shamelessly on display in words the prime minister said to CBC Radio in an interview that is airing on the weekend, but was excerpted on their website.
> 
> “I’ve been very, very careful all my life to be thoughtful, to be respectful of people’s space and people’s headspace as well,” the PM said.
> 
> Then, according to the public broadcaster: “When asked if any of his past actions could be misconstrued, Trudeau said he didn’t think so.”
> 
> The PM continued: ”This is something that I’m not new to. I’ve been working on issues around sexual assault for over 25 years. My first activism and engagement was at the sexual assault centre at McGill students’ society where I was one of the first male facilitators in their outreach program leading conversations — sometimes very difficult ones — on the issues of consent, communications, accountability, power dynamics.”


Things that make you go hmmm...


----------



## FeXL

At least 7 companies committed indictable offences in bread-price fixing scandal: Competition Bureau



> Newly released documents allege bread wholesalers Canada Bread Company Ltd. and George Weston Ltd. directly communicated with one another and retail customers including Loblaw Companies Ltd., Walmart Canada Corp., Sobeys Inc., Metro Inc. and Giant Tiger Stores Ltd.


Give Us Each Day Our Daily Morneau



> The audacity of @Bill_Morneau calling farmers and doctors TAX CHEATS while his wife's family allegedly FIXES bread prices is unfathomable.#Cdnpoli #Onpoli https://t.co/jGZmvdKQCr
> — David Jacobs (@DrJacobsRad) February 1, 2018


'Why the hell are they at $1.88?': Inside the damning allegations of Canada’s bread fixing scandal



> Senior business officials of the country’s two biggest bread producers and five grocery retailers participated in an extensive price-fixing scheme that inflated the price of bread by at least $1.50 over a decade and a half, according to allegations in Competition Bureau documents released Wednesday.
> 
> An unsealed court affidavit contains a raft of damning allegations of collusion from an investigating officer at the competition watchdog beginning in 2001 and continuing, possibly, to almost present day.
> 
> The document resulted in search warrants issued last month at the head offices of suppliers Canada Bread and Weston Bakeries and the retailers Loblaw, Sobeys, Metro, Walmart and Giant Tiger. It cites at least 15 alleged instances of co-ordinated price increases following a specific pattern — a 7-cent bread price hike by the suppliers who together account for 68 per cent of the commercial bread in the Canadian market, and a corresponding bread price increase of ten cents from the retailers involved.


Now, if they could just catch the collusion among oil companies...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, why hasn't Kent Hehr been axed?

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> _Justin Trudeau, Canada's #metoo feminist Prime Minister addresses questions on Kent Hehr.
> 
> No comment from Prime Minister Trudeau on Kent Hehr as he leaves Parliament for the day #cdnpoli pic.twitter.com/guQyBtqfeH
> — Laura Stone (@l_stone) January 28, 2018_​


Related:

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> _Intern scandal brewing in Ottawa as the #metoo movement meets Justin Trudeau. Story soon.
> — Andrew Krystal (@AndrewKrystal) January 30, 2018_​
> You could dismiss this as hopeless rumour, but observe as he plots an escape route ...
> 
> _"I don't have a rule book that's been handed down by Wilfrid Laurier as leader of the Liberal party on how to handle these situations," Trudeau said during a press conference Tuesday afternoon in Ottawa.
> 
> "Every case will be different."_​
> ...while warning potential accusers.


Wait. I thought all women accusers had to be trusted?


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

So, The Hairdo is on his town hall tour.

Whoop-de-frickin'-dooo...

Conservatives demand Trudeau apologize for town hall comments on veterans



> In August 2015, Trudeau said that if he was elected, veterans would no longer have to fight the government in court for fair and equitable compensation for injuries received while in uniform.
> 
> The Liberals also promised to re-instate lifelong disability pensions for injured veterans, which were replaced by a lump-sum payment, rehabilitation programs and targeted-income support in 2006.


More:



> During question period in the House of Commons on Monday, Conservative leader Andrew Scheer questioned the Liberal government's priorities as he detailed several other expenditures during Trudeau's watch.
> 
> Included on the list: the $10-million settlement with Omar Khadr; $256-million for a China-led infrastructure bank; a $372-million loan to Bombardier and $200,000 for Trudeau's Christmas trip to the Aga Khan's island in 2016.
> 
> "So why does he say no to Canada's veterans?" Scheer said after demanding Trudeau apologize for his remarks last Thursday, which have since been viewed online thousands of times and stoked anger in the veterans' community.


And now?

Bibeau to announce funds to combat female genital mutilation in West Africa



> The federal government will announce funding of $3 million for a project aimed at eradicating female genital mutilation in West Africa.


First off, great!

Second, why not target FGM in Canada? (Ah knows. It don't happen here...)

Third, guess there is a bit of extra cash floating around, isn't there, Sockboy...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Nope. No sharia law in Canuckistan. Nosiree...

Canadian PM: Sharia law is compatible with democracy



> Canada continues to support and implement Sharia Law.
> 
> The American Center for Democracy (ACD) quotes Imam Aasim Rashid of Vancouver, British Columbia, who spoke in October 2017 at Thompson Rivers University, explaining why the Canadian government wants to implement Sharia Law.
> 
> "I’ll tell you who wants to bring Sharia Law," Thompson said then. "The Canadian government wants to bring Sharia Law and this is not a joke. Why? Because Sharia Law is simply the way Muslims are doing things."
> 
> "The Canadian government wanted the Muslims to be able to regulate their own issues....to solve their problems amongst themselves [according] to Sharia Law, so it is not a burden on the court system which is already so bogged down.
> 
> "The government told us – we would like you to have this system, and we would like to work on these initiatives with you."
> 
> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told CBC in January 2016 that "Islam is not incompatible with Western secular democracy."


----------



## 18m2

I received this email and I assume its authentic. The idea of banning FGM from the prescribed moral values of Canada is bad. I don't understand how this move to eliminate the text could have got off the ground. I suspect this is another attempt by the Liberals to make Canada more acceptable to racial Muslims.



> I wanted to write you to let you know about the success our Conservative Party is having in fighting the Liberals in Ottawa.
> 
> As you may know, we have been pressuring Justin Trudeau for months about his government’s attempt to remove the condemnation of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) from the Canadian Citizenship Guide.
> 
> We have been hammering them in Parliament and committees - and you, our supporters, have been sending emails and signing my petition, which has over 25,000 signatures.
> 
> Together, we forced the Liberals to back down. *They recently announced that the new Citizenship Guide will continue to condemn FGM.*
> 
> Today, February 6, is the International Day of Zero Tolerance for Female Genital Mutilation. I am proud of our efforts to fight the Liberals on this issue.
> 
> But there is much more to be done in order to combat FGM at home and abroad.
> 
> We will continue with our efforts and continue to push this government to do the right things for all Canadians.
> 
> Thank you for your continued support,
> 
> Michelle Rempel
> MP, Calgary Nose Hill


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Nope. No sharia law in Canuckistan. Nosiree...
> 
> Canadian PM: Sharia law is compatible with democracy


More fear-mongering. We've covered this before: the Canadian justice system allows the option of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), including Sharia law application in certain cases, such as the division of assets in divorce, etc. But there's no way in hell you're going to see anyone chopping off hands as a penalty for robbery. The rabid right-wingers like yourself who continue to scream from the rooftops that the jihidists are coming should either get a clue and chill out, or have the guts to be honest and declare your bigotry openly.

It's not like this is a new issue - you tinfoil hat folks are only "new" in the sense that you're wrapping your MAGA caps in aluminum now.

I refer you to this treatment of the issue from about 15 years ago:

At no other time have Ontario courts been as backlogged as today, wrote Ontario's auditor in his October 2003 report. The sentiment was echoed by Ontario's chief justices at the 2004 opening session of the provincial court. 

Given the situation, one would expect that anything that may ease the backlog would be welcome. Ironically, recent efforts by the Islamic Institute of Civil Justice to formalize alternative dispute resolution (ADR) have met strong opposition from within and outside the community, at times verging on Islamophobia.

Right wing commentators and news outlets had a field day. "Canadian judges soon will be enforcing Islamic law...such as stoning women caught in adultery," screamed one headline. Another read "Canada Allowing Sharia Barbaric Laws?" Even the usually sober Globe and Mail got in on it with a front page story titled "Tribunal will apply Islamic Law in Ontario."

** * **​
Other communities have successfully implemented ADR procedures with much less fanfare and scrutiny. For instance, rabbinical courts or Beth Din's dealing with business and matrimonial issues have been functioning for some time in North America. 

The existing Canadian legal framework allows parties to civil, family and religious disputes to opt for ADR and thereby resolve their differences using their own parameters be it religious or otherwise in a more feasible and culturally acceptable manner. This trend toward ADR will greatly benefit the general public by easing the burden on the judicial system and saving tax dollars.

** * **​
Of course, contrary to the impression left by some misinformed observers, any decision rendered by a tribunal or a panel of mediators would be subject to appeal to the courts and would have to be consistent with the supreme law of the land, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. 
(Islamicity)​


----------



## FeXL

Yes, we have covered this before.

Sharia law is slowly & surely being introduced into Western societies.

Period.



CubaMark said:


> We've covered this before...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Yes, we have covered this before.
> 
> Sharia law is slowly & surely being introduced into Western societies.
> 
> Period.


Yep, the head people demands it.


----------



## Macfury

He never fit the classical definition of a man in the first place.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Period.


*OH!* Well... I didn't realize. *A Period!* How can anyone take issue with such a sound, well-reasoned and impassioned rebuttal? _The hell with reality_, this man knows how to make a dot! :clap: :lmao: :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Not judging the quality of your argument CM, but applauding yourself with a gaggle of icons always looks a little "off."


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Not judging the quality of your argument CM, but applauding yourself with a gaggle of icons always looks a little "off."


You misunderstand, MF: The applause is for FeXL's amazing demonstration of creative argumentation.


----------



## FeXL

I'm tired of repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating (& repeating) my rebuttals to you religious Prog atheists who take no stock in actual facts.

If once isn't good enough, a hunnert more times ain't gonna make it sink in.

If you are truly interested in what I said the first time, there's a somewhat limited but nonetheless useful "Search" feature in the forum software. I suggest you learn how to use it.

Seeing as your memory seems to be going, I suggest you use it for any number of repeated (and lost) arguments you've brought up on these boards recently.



CubaMark said:


> How can anyone take issue with such a sound, well-reasoned and impassioned rebuttal?


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> I received this email and I assume its authentic.


I can't vouch as to the authenticity of the email but, yes, Sockboy & his idiots were, in fact, attempting to remove the mention of FGM from the document. They backed down.


----------



## SINC

FATAH: As MPs look for Islamophobia, mosques continue promoting intolerance | Toronto Sun


----------



## SINC

Good advice. 

For the sake of peoplekind, Justin Trudeau needs to shut his mouth

https://www.thestar.com/entertainme...oplekind-justin-trudeau-needs-to-shut-up.html


----------



## SINC

Telling Facebook what to do when he should be telling that to BC. 

Trudeau to Facebook: Fix your fake news problem or face stricter regulation

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ebook-fix-your-fake-news-problem-or-else.html


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness the CBC is already toeing the line!



SINC said:


> Telling Facebook what to do when he should be telling that to BC.
> 
> Trudeau to Facebook: Fix your fake news problem or face stricter regulation
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ebook-fix-your-fake-news-problem-or-else.html


----------



## FUXL

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

You See Pee, but Don Macintyre sees little boys or grrrlz!

Alberta bound, Alberta bound.


----------



## SINC

Justin just does not get it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Justin just does not get it.




No, Don, apparently you do not get it. It was a joke, though not a very good one.


----------



## Macfury

Perfect, SINC!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Perfect, SINC!


Yeah, some ‘peoples’ don’t recognize Trudeau’s vision of todays man.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> No, Don, apparently you do not get it. It was a joke, though not a very good one.


I’m not so sure it was a joke, more likely a slam against someone who he thought was boring in their question. Most would call that arrogance. A leader needs to look out for these land mines and unfortunately JT is considered a laughing stock globally, he didn’t do much to further his cause.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> I’m not so sure it was a joke, more likely a slam against someone who he thought was boring in their question. Most would call that arrogance. A leader needs to look out for these land mines and unfortunately JT is considered a laughing stock globally, he didn’t do much to further his cause.


This. In spades. :clap:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> I’m not so sure it was a joke, more likely a slam against someone who he thought was boring in their question. Most would call that arrogance. A leader needs to look out for these land mines and unfortunately JT is considered a laughing stock globally, he didn’t do much to further his cause.



He was certainly arrogant that day. I don't believe he is considered a laughing stock internationally however; you're thinking of that dotard down south.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> He was certainly arrogant that day. I don't believe he is considered a laughing stock internationally however;...


Check the news..they're laughing at Justin globally.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Check the news..they're laughing at Justin globally.


This. Again in spades. Apparently everyone on the globe but Freddie knows this.


----------



## 18m2

Cuba claims Justin is Fidel Castro's son :heybaby:

There is resemblance.

Cuba Claims Justin Trudeau Is Fidel Castro's Son - Your News Wire


----------



## FeXL

It was no more a joke than any of the other stupid $h!t Juthdin's said. 

To wit:
1) The budget will balance itself.
2) Admires China's basic dictatorship.
3) Small businesses are ways for wealthy Canadians to save on their taxes.
4) We need to invest in investigative national security stuff.
5) We will grow the economy from the heart outwards.
6) Poverty is sexist.
7) Honour killings should not be called barbaric.
8) Understands the immigrant experience because his grandfather was from Scotland.
9) Has superior foreign policy experience because he's been backpacking.
10) I don’t read the newspapers, I don’t watch the news. If something important happens, someone will tell me.
11) The thinking that got us to this place no longer holds. We have to rethink elements as basic as space and time.
12) I am frustrated and outraged about having to make that settlement.
13) ISIS fighters can be an extraordinarily powerful voice in Canada.
14) Called Castro a remarkable leader.

That's a start...




Freddie_Biff said:


> It was a joke...


----------



## CubaMark

18m2 said:


> Cuba claims Justin is Fidel Castro's son :heybaby:
> 
> There is resemblance.
> 
> Cuba Claims Justin Trudeau Is Fidel Castro's Son - Your News Wire


*Uh... no.* We covered this a year-and-a-half ago....


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> *Uh... no.* We covered this a year-and-a-half ago....




Never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!


How would it be a conspiracy theory?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> How would it be a conspiracy theory?


Who knows what goes on in the minds of Progs...


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

Owen Benjapeople (formerly Benjamin) puts together a list of words that need to be changed to suit Juthdin & his cadre of virtue signallers.

Anti-PC Comedian Takes Justin Trudeau’s ‘Peoplekind’ to Hilarious Extremes



> Anti-political correctness comedian Owen Benjamin has posted a hilarious video mocking the ridiculous scolding Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau gave one of his citizens about using the term “mankind” instead of his preferred “peoplekind.”
> 
> Set in the tone of the typical Hollywood cause-du-jour public service announcement, Benjamin’s video states “it’s time” to end the use of “man” or “men” in the English language and replace each instance with “people” or “person.” It’s then, and only then, that all the evils of the world will be banished forever.


Oh, for those who are thensitive, language warning...

Related:

Justin Trudeau Deploys Squads Of Royal Mounties Across Canada To Arrest Anyone Saying ‘Mankind’



> In order to ensure the politically correct use of the English language across the nation, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau deployed a special squad of Royal Canadian Mounted Police to patrol cities, towns, and neighborhoods making sure no one uses outdated terms like “mankind.”
> 
> According to Trudeau, anyone caught saying “mankind” instead of the more inclusive “peoplekind” will be apprehended and taken away to an undisclosed location.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Liberals just announced how they'll make Canada even scarier for energy investors



> One could argue that the degree of chaos and uncertainty that now exists in the Canadian energy marketplace, particularly for the pipeline sector, is directly proportional to the degree of political interference in energy regulation. One could also argue that the changes by the federal government to environmental and regulatory reviews related to major projects, particularly affecting the National Energy Board (NEB), announced Thursday, in the name of “modernizing” regulatory approvals have probably just made matters much worse for investors, industry and Canadians.


Could? :yikes:

Related:

In pipeline wars, Trudeau stands as always with Paris, never Alberta



> The clash between B.C. and Alberta goes a lot deeper than the current headlines.
> 
> At least 10 or 20 years of ruthlessly organized, internationally endowed, wildly overblown scare propaganda against the Canadian oil industry, most especially as symbolized by the Fort McMurray oilsands project, has preceded it. The shielding umbrella under which the campaign has been waged, and the spurious ideological warrant behind it, has been the global warming fetish that locates the Earth’s imminent doom in the industrial economies of modern capitalism. Its foot soldiers have been a tormented assembly of every hard left groupuscule from the trendy Chavistas (Naomi Klein Inc.) to the fatuous (Bill Nye) to the grimly Calvinist Greens. At both ends they are an angry and a zealous lot, unscrupulous in their messaging and remorselessly uncompromising in their aims: shut down oil, cost to the world be damned.


More:



> No other state or province, and no other single project has borne the weight of calumny and accusation as have Alberta and the oil sands. No campaigns against projects in China, India, the Middle East, the U.S. or Latin America have been of even near duration or intensity as their relentless crusade against Fort McMurray. The oil sands are as a pinprick in the world’s energy production, yet as the eco-Furies paint them, they are Armageddon’s launch pad.


More, yet:



> And so it is that with the latest salvo from B.C., Premier Rachel Notley pushes on alone.
> 
> She may have thought she had a deal with Justin Trudeau on “social licence” but she never did — just a treacle of insincere bromides, verbal goo to serve a moment’s press, forgotten before the camera lights dimmed. Her erstwhile partner in “the balance” hovers blandly above the contest, even as a fracture in the Confederation threatens.


As usual, Rex nails it.


----------



## Macfury

Notley's total and abject failure as a provincial leader has her, at last, desperately clinging to the energy industry as her final hope. After poisoning the business and political atmosphere for three years, good luck on that one.


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

The iron...

New strain “Trudope” created in honour of Justin Trudeau legalizing weed in Canada



> Everybody knows how dope Justin Trudeau is. So it only makes sense that there is a strain named after him *to match his appeal*. At a meeting held in Winnipeg this month, Trudeau found out about a new strain of weed created in his honor, _Justin Trudope_. There was laughter and excitement from the crowd after this was announced by an audience member at the meeting.


M'bold.

Lemmee guess: Makes you weak, insipid, spineless, cry a lot and replaces your vocabulary with ah's & um's?

That's Juthdin's appeal to me...


----------



## FeXL

<sniff> 'Bout right...

Here in chronological order are the consequences of making a snowman in today’s Canada


----------



## Rps

Just thought I’d share this from today’s National Post ...... NDP agreed policy platform.. I think it will be a major contributor to the Green Party coming in 3rd in the 2019 Here are some of the key policies the NDP passed at its convention this weekend:

Drug decriminalization

The party decided to add the decriminalization of all drug possession to its policy book, in keeping with an idea floated by Jagmeet Singh during his leadership campaign. The provision was folded into a resolution focused on ending the opioid crisis.

Pharmacare, dental care and more

As part of efforts to more broadly extend health care coverage, the NDP voted in resolutions adopting universal pharmacare and universal dental care policies. Other new additions include a national requirement for employers to provide paid sick leave and free access to menstrual products and contraceptive methods.

Free university tuition

The NDP policy book’s section on post-secondary education will now include promises to increase federal transfers to provinces and territories, halt privatization of education, eliminate tuition and administration fees and reform student loans, including by creating debt relief and forgiveness programs.

Street checks and carding

In one of the most keenly supported resolutions, if you judge by applause, New Democrats approved a policy to implement a federal ban on street checks and carding by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and work towards a definition and ban on racial profiling by federal law enforcement agencies. They agreed an NDP government would work with police forces across the country to end the practice.

Emergency resolution on Colten Boushie

The NDP adopted an emergency resolution after the acquittal of Gerald Stanley in the shooting death of young Indigenous man Colten Boushie. It calls on the federal government to amend the criminal code so that only challenges for cause can be used against prospective jurors, and that stand-asides and peremptory challenges be eliminated. It also demands the federal government call for an “immediate national inquiry” into the RCMP’s handling of the case.

Quebec and the Constitution

New Democrats agreed they would be open to re-opening the Constitution. They recognize leaving Quebec out of the constitution in 1982 was “an historic mistake,” say they recognize “any serious effort” to recognize Quebec’s status as a nation and bring it into the constitutional framework and ensure constitutional reform is aimed at establishing a real nation-to-nation relationship with Indigenous peoples. They also approved a single tax return for Quebec, to be administered by the provincial government.

Israeli-Palestinian conflict

The most moderately-worded motion of several that had been proposed to come to the convention floor was adopted. It condemns violations of United Nations resolutions and international laws, condemns U.S. President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and reaffirms the party’s support for a two-state solution.

Safe Third Country agreement

The NDP passed a resolution that says U.S. President Donald Trump’s anti-immigration policies “continue to create a climate of genuine fear, lack of due process and threat to the safety and security of those seeking asylum in the U.S.”

Zero-emission cars and the environment

The NDP want to mandate that all new vehicles produced or imported into Canada are zero-emission vehicles by 2040. They also agreed to make big emitters pay for pollution, and ensure their election platform includes a promise to grant Canadians “a legal right to a healthy and sustainable environment,” and enshrine into law the federal government’s responsibility to protect the environment as well as protection for whistleblowers.

Indigenous affairs

An NDP government would commit to executing the 94 Calls to Action in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and implement Human Rights Tribunal rulings on First Nations child welfare, “including the reinstatement of adequate funding.” Delegates also agreed to pressure government to “correct the course” of the national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, including extending the timeline so all families who wish to testify can do so.

Morneau’s pension reforms

In what seems to be a direct hit to legislation proposed by Liberal Finance Minister Bill Morneau, whose family company Morneau Shepell could benefit from it, the NDP are expressing their opposition to target pension plans. A resolution states the NDP will oppose legislation that allows Crown Corporations or federally regulated sectors to introduce plans for their employees.

Electoral reform

With the requisite hand-wringing at the Liberals’ broken electoral reform promise, the NDP agreed to support a mixed-member proportional representation voting system for federal elections, and ensure the system “be given high profile in the NDP platform in the next federal election.”


----------



## SINC

Makes me wonder what the hell the Dippers are smoking. They are shrinking in the polls and I suspect it is because there new leader is not met with the approval of too many Canadians. And with this type of agenda, there will be more walking away.


----------



## Macfury

Wow! That's a nightmare brew of policies. Not the least problem is that it lacks even the most basic regard for separation of federal and provincial powers.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Just thought I’d share this from today’s National Post ...... NDP agreed policy platform.. I think it will be a major contributor to the Green Party coming in 3rd in the 2019 Here are some of the key policies the NDP passed at its convention this weekend:


What I find even more interesting is that Federal Dippers = Provincial Dippers. Ergo, this is also Red Rachel's policy...


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> What I find even more interesting is that Federal Dippers = Provincial Dippers. Ergo, this is also Red Rachel's policy...


To me, the NDP strategy is to out Liberal the Liberals....this will make the centre-left a larger vote pool thus isolating the Conservatives who have been absent from voter consciousness and policy wise have been in the ether. A trait shared provincially as well as federally.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin Trudeau’s ‘unusual’ India trip raises eyebrows, panned by Canada watchdog



> As Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau continues his eight-day visit to India, the fact that his schedule includes just half-a-day of official engagements in New Delhi is being described as “unusual” by veteran diplomats and criticised by a Canadian watchdog.
> 
> A veteran Indian diplomat said in his long experience with bilateral visits, he had never experienced a trip of this nature, where the visiting dignitary spent so little time in official engagements with counterparts in the Indian government.
> 
> In addition, he said, it was equally surprising that six cabinet ministers accompanying Trudeau had scant official engagements, except for foreign minister Chrystia Freeland, who will confer with external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj ahead of the meeting between the prime ministers in New Delhi on February 23.


Nothing quite like an international Liberal junket on the backs of Canuck taxpayers.

Hey, Piggy! Sooooouuuuuiiiieeeee!!!!!


----------



## SINC

The idiot's wife is no better.

Surrey terrorist convicted in 1986 shooting poses with Trudeau’s wife | National Post


----------



## SINC

That would be this idiot.


----------



## SINC

And now this.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, the forward team really dropped the ball on that one, but I’m thinking much of this is Mr. T’s doing......he is more like the U.S.’ Mr. T. .......both have the same issue.... there are two types of ignorance in the world.....plain ( which is just not knowing) and willful......I see willful ignorance here.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, let's talk Sock Boy & Family's India trip.

Surrey man convicted in 1986 B.C. terrorist shooting poses with Trudeau's wife, cabinet minister in India



> A Surrey businessman convicted in a 1986 terrorist shooting in B.C. posed with Sophie Gregoire Trudeau and a Canadian cabinet minister during the prime minister’s trip to India.
> 
> Jaspal Atwal, a one-time member of the now-banned International Sikh Youth Federation, had also been invited to a dinner with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at the Canadian High Commission in Delhi on Thursday night.


Canadian PM Justin Trudeau Cancels Dinner Invite to Convicted Khalistani Terrorist Jaspal Atwal Hours After Meeting With Punjab CM Captain Amarinder Singh



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has cancelled a dinner invite Jaspal Atwal, who is a convicted Khalistani terrorist. The dinner reception was scheduled in Delhi on Thursday, February 22. The cancellation came after a photograph of Atwal posing with the Canadian Prime Minister’s wife Sophie Trudeau in Mumbai surfaced. *It also came shortly after Trudeau met Punjab Chief Minister Captain Amarinder Singh, who raised the Khalistani terror issue in the meeting.*


Bold mine.

But wait! It gets better:

Feds use taxpayer money to fly celebrity chef to India



> Vancouver-based celebrity chef Vikram Vij, a vocal Liberal supporter, was flown to India on the government’s dime to cook for a group of top diplomats, CTV News has learned.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been travelling across India with his family in hopes of boosting business ties with the South Asian nation.
> 
> The government flew Vij to India to help prepare Indian cuisine for a reception at the residence of the Canadian High Commissioner on Thursday.
> 
> Vij’s flight and hotel were paid for by taxpayers’ dollars, CTV News has learned.
> 
> In a statement to CTV News, a government spokesperson confirmed that Vij was invited to the reception and that his “out-of-pocket expenses” are being covered.


Hey, Piggy!!! Soooouuuuiiiieeee!!!!! 

I wonder if they're going to be serving up any Liberal Pig Snout in the Trough?

Trudeau’s election-ready collection of excellent vacation photos



> Justin Trudeau’s excellent family vacation, the entire country of India being their venue, has the Liberals with a treasure trove of photographs in the bag for the 2019 federal election.
> 
> *The prime minister’s entire family — wife Sophie, and the three kids — have been pictured in all sorts of traditional Indian garb as they toured various religious shrines, and without a single cry of “cultural appropriation’ being raised by the political correct crowd back home who track such perceived slights.*


Bold mine.

Curious, that...

However, not everybody appreciates the costume changes:

Justin Trudeau is ridiculed by Indians for his 'fake, tacky and annoying' wardrobe of traditional outfits - and finally dons a suit after criticism



> Justin Trudeau has been ridiculed on social media by Indians for his 'tacky' and over the top outfit choices while on his first visit to their nation as Prime Minister.
> 
> While many praised his clothing during the first two days of his trip, patience was wearing thin by the time he attended a Bollywood gala on Tuesday night, before the tide turned against him on Wednesday.
> 
> Ministers, authors, journalists and ordinary Indians lined up to mock him on Wednesday, saying his wardrobe was 'fake and annoying'.
> 
> Perhaps taking note of the criticism, the Canadian leader donned a suit on Thursday as he visited Jama Masjid, one of India's largest mosques.


Personally, I never tire of him making a horse's ass out of himself.

And, whaddya s'pose he's gonna do with this list?

India gives Trudeau list of suspected Sikh separatists in Canada



> India has handed Canada a list of nine people in Canada who are suspected of trying to revive a Sikh separatist movement in the Indian state of Punjab, a state official said on Thursday.


Yep. Butt wipe...

Oh, I bet everybody's reassured now:

Trudeau, Sajjan assure Indian officials there are no Sikh separatists in Canadian cabinet



> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said he and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau made clear to the chief minister of Punjab on Wednesday that his repeated allegations that Canadian cabinet ministers were Sikh separatists are extremely false.
> 
> Trudeau and Sajjan met with Amarinder Singh at a hotel in Amritsar Wednesday afternoon in part to try and mend fences on a fractured relationship between Canada and the Indian state where a majority of Indian Canadians are from.


Not just false. _Extremely_ false...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Looking for somewhere to put those retirement savings? Try the Rebel Media! 










https://pressprogress.ca/rebel-medi...avings-into-newly-created-rebel-freedom-fund/


----------



## Macfury

The straw man of the "Rebel Media" again? I wouldn't know a single thing they were doing if progs such as yourself weren't offering links.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> The straw man of the "Rebel Media" again? I wouldn't know a single thing they were doing if progs such as yourself weren't offering links.


Rebel Media in the Canadian political thread? What a phoney stretch that is!


----------



## SINC

Here some political stuff instead:

Invitation to attempted murderer throws cloud over Trudeau's India visit - Politics - CBC News


----------



## SINC

More politics:

John Robson: Trudeau’s next mind-bogglingly ambitious policy he won’t deliver on | National Post


----------



## SINC

More politics since Freddie seems short of real political stuff today:

*Feds use taxpayer money to fly celebrity chef to India*

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/polit...oney-to-fly-celebrity-chef-to-india-1.3814009


----------



## SINC

Yep . . .


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Rebel Media in the Canadian political thread? What a phoney stretch that is!



Why?


----------



## FeXL

Toronto cop's wife, her mom and sisters snared in immigration scam



> The officer serving as second in command at Toronto’s troubled 13 Division had his Bradford home raided as Peel Regional Police investigated an alleged immigration scam earlier this month.
> 
> Acting Insp. Paul Qureshi’s wife, Mariam Qureshi, 36, her mother and the alleged ringleader, Sakia Mojadiddi, 61, along with the elder woman’s two younger daughters, Dunya Mojadiddi, 26, and Morassa Rizvir, 32, are now charged with fraud-related offences from a scheme that police allege fleeced victims from the Middle East who dreamed of bringing loved ones to Canada.
> 
> Peel cops allege eight victims from their region lost approximately $800,000. All four women are free and are due back in court March 12.


I find it interesting that an operation of this scope could proceed under the nose of an _Acting Police Inspector_ without him having _some_ knowledge of it.

Jes' sayin'...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canadian PMO in damage control mode, brings Justin Trudeau’s trip back on track



> As the initial phase of the eight-day visit of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau attracted wonder and even ridicule in his country, the Prime Minister’s Office has taken control of the remaining engagements to bring the trip back on track.
> 
> The original itinerary was decided with the advice of Indo-Canadian cabinet minister Navdeep Bains, who is Trudeau’s point person for the Indo-Canadian community and relations with India, and implemented by Canada’s high commissioner to New Delhi, Nadir Patel, people familiar with the developments said.
> 
> However, they pointed out, the itinerary left just half-a-day for official engagements in New Delhi, and that too on the penultimate day of the visit. In fact, it would have been the final day if the trip had not been extended to February 24.


Gueth hith handlers didn't approve of all the mockery...

More:



> One Conservative Party MP sarcastically wished Trudeau and his family “another wonderful vacation”...


Yep.


----------



## SINC

Trudeau claimed $1 billion in trade, actually 75% less in India. He is now the laughing stock of the world for his costume display.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/02/20/all-flash-and-no-show-for-canadas-trudeau-in-india.html


----------



## SINC

More news on the idiot:

Is Trudeau 'hobnobbing' with terrorists? Why India doesn't trust Canada all that much | National Post


----------



## SINC

And on it goes.


----------



## Macfury

No matter which costume he grabs, he still has that dopey, vacant look...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further.

On an already bad day for the PM, he also struggled with a basic fact about the country he leads - and was trying to promote in front of this business audience in New Delhi

Maths ith hard for Progs & substitute drama teachers...


----------



## SINC

From 'snub' to scandal, Trudeau's India visit sparks outrage



> New Delhi (CNN)Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's week-long trip to India has gone from bad to worse.
> 
> Already dogged by bad press and speculation that the prime minister had been "snubbed" by the Indian government, on Thursday Canadian officials were again on the back-foot, after it was revealed a Sikh extremist convicted of attempting to murder an Indian politician had been invited to dine with Trudeau at the Canadian High Commissioner's residence in New Delhi.
> 
> The official invitation, which was later withdrawn, has sparked outrage in India, where the issue of Sikh separatism remains a highly charged and emotive topic.
> 
> "Obviously we take this situation extremely seriously. The individual in question never should have received an invitation. As soon as we found out, we rescinded the invitation immediately," said Trudeau during a gathering of reporters on Thursday.
> 
> The individual at the center of the controversy is Jaspal Atwal, a Canadian national of Indian heritage, who in 1987 was sentenced to 20 years in a Canadian court for his part in the attempted murder of a visiting Indian state minister.
> 
> Complicating matters, multiple Canadian media outlets also carried photographs showing Atwal standing next to Sophie Trudeau, the wife of the Canadian Prime Minister, at a reception held in Mumbai Tuesday.
> 
> It is unclear how Atwal, a known militant, managed to obtain a visa to enter into India, or why he was seen traveling with the Trudeau entourage.


It just keeps getting worse for this idiot.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/22/asia/extremist-scandal-trudeau-india-visit-intl/index.html


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> From 'snub' to scandal, Trudeau's India visit sparks outrage
> 
> 
> 
> It just keeps getting worse for this idiot.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/22/asia/extremist-scandal-trudeau-india-visit-intl/index.html


It is a shame that the phrase, "The idiot Trudeau" was preempted by his daddy.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on The Dope.

Justin Trudeau Makes A Fool Of Himself Again, Insults Entire Nation Of India With Condescending, Ethnic Attire

First sentence nails it:



> _*What is wrong with this guy?*_


Emphasis mine.

Yep.

Ujjal Dosanjh: India-Canada Relations At 'Rock Bottom' After Invite Fiasco



> The stunning oversight that allowed a man convicted of attempted murder to be invited to a party in New Delhi with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is rocking Canada's ties with India just as the government is trying to boost trade in Asia.
> 
> The fiasco has left relations between the two countries at an all-time low, said one former Liberal cabinet minister, while other observers call it proof the government must jettison the photo ops in traditional Indian clothing in favour of a more serious foreign policy stance.
> 
> Ujjal Dosanjh, a former Liberal health minister, ex-premier of British Columbia and one-time provincial attorney general, accused his old federal party of being too close to Sikh separatists even before Trudeau's arrival Sunday in India.
> 
> Inviting Jaspal Atwal to a reception, however, was the last straw, Dosanjh suggested.


Curious that the Indians aren't very receptive to Mr Dress Up's inclusivity. Kinda like Canadians aren't very receptive to ISIS soldiers being welcomed back & reintegrated into Canada...

Is Trudeau ‘hobnobbing’ with terrorists? Why India doesn’t trust Canada all that much



> It’s pretty clear by now that Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is not having the most productive time in India. His itinerary is unusually light and, according to Indian media, high profile politicians seem to be actively avoiding him.
> 
> And that was before Sophie Gregoire Trudeau posed with a Surrey businessman, Jaspal Atwal, convicted in a 1986 terrorist shooting in B.C. during the family’s trip to India.


Convicted felon's invite to dinner with Trudeau highlights 'serious gaps': expert



> Questions around security are being raised after a convicted felon was invited to a dinner with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in India.
> 
> As a former member of the International Sikh Youth Federation (a banned terrorist group in Canada and India), Jaspal Atwal was convicted of the attempted murder of an Indian cabinet minister in 1986.
> 
> He managed to get on the guest list thanks to Surrey Centre MP Randeep Sarai, who’s since claimed responsibility for his actions and admitted he should have used better judgement.


Poor judgement? :yikes: Yeah, that's one term for it...

Would-be assassin has longtime ties to Liberals



> Jaspal Atwal, the former terrorist member and would-be assassin who was photographed alongside members of the Canadian delegation in India, is a long-time supporter of the Liberal Party of Canada.
> 
> Atwal is a former donor to the federal Grits with deep ties to the party that pre-date Justin Trudeau’s tenure as prime minister. Official records show, for example, that Atwal donated $500 to the Liberal Party of Canada in Surrey, BC, on April 9, 2011.


Yeah, I'm not surprised. After Sock Boy gets back home, he'll be sending out a personal apology to Atwal for pulling his dinner invitation, along with a 5 figure cheque.


Don Martin: If this is Trudeau putting Canada 'back' on the world stage, we should get off 



> First, that testy unproductive China visit last fall.
> 
> Then there was the angry group of Pacific Rim partners left stewing as Canada waffled back from a free trade agreement.
> 
> And let's not get started on how repeated soothing Justin Trudeau visits have only ramped up President Donald Trump’s trash-talking of Canada for re-negotiating NAFTA in bad faith.
> 
> Now add India to the list of countries which have lowered their opinion of Canada as a result of prime ministerial visits.
> 
> If this is Trudeau putting Canada back on the world stage, we should get off.
> 
> *This week’s far-too-long tour of India by a prime minister looking for campaign-friendly photo-ops has become a cross between the Keystone Cops and Mr. Dressup.*


M'bold.

Trudeau's global sensation comes crashing down in India



> The Liberal Party of Canada’s crass partisanship and dubious vote-seeking schemes are catching up with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau during his official state visit to India.


Nails it.

Global culture-sqaud meet to consider next steps in Trudeau Indian dress-up heist

What an embarrassment...


----------



## eMacMan

Normally not a fan of the death penalty but in this case I think it appropriate. Maybe stake him out in his skivvies at -40°?

La Loche Sentencing | Calgary Herald


----------



## SINC

This would be no surprise.


----------



## SINC

And now this:

*Trudeau didn't act in good faith in dealings with Kinder Morgan*



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has admitted what many Canadians believed for some time—the approval of Trans Mountain’s expansion was always a foregone conclusion.
> 
> Trudeau told National Observer earlier this month that he relied on Ottawa’s power to grant Trans Mountain’s approval as a bargaining chip so Alberta would be “as ambitious as we needed Alberta to be” to get on with the National Climate Change Plan.
> 
> This is not what Trudeau said during the election campaign. There was no mention of the project being used to leverage climate change policies big oil would accept. Just the opposite.
> 
> He promised Trans Mountain’s review would be redone—period. He assured Canadians his Cabinet would not rely on the torqued review conducted by an industry captured, and fundamentally compromised, National Energy Board (NEB).
> 
> He led Canadians to believe that if the project was approved it would be based on facts and science. Now we know this was never his intention. Trudeau’s recent admission explains why his staff and B.C.-based MPs began back pedalling on Trans Mountain’s redo immediately after the election.
> 
> Trudeau broke his promise, but until now, he never explained why.
> 
> It is no wonder public protests and vitriolic outbreaks stalked Trudeau during his recent cross-country Town Hall Tour. When people have been betrayed, it makes them angry. As Trudeau made his way west under increasing pressure, his behaviour became volatile.


More here:

https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...u-didnt-act-good-faith-dealings-kinder-morgan


----------



## SINC

Voters should let these words from an Indian columnist burn into their brain and never vote for him or the Liberals again, as they outline exactly why this idiot is a clear and present danger to Canada.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Voters should let these words from an Indian columnist burn into their brain and never vote for him or the Liberals again, as they outline exactly why this idiot is a clear and present danger to Canada.


That's brilliant...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Lets talk about The Dope s'more, along with his Mr Dressup tour...

CBC Continues to Carry Trudeau’s Water, Indian Press Show Up Canadian Press in Calling a Poseur a Poseur, and Trudeau War on ‘Fake News’ Continues



> Leave it to the foreign press of a blossoming democracy to expose a waning democracy’s leader’s phoniness. Sure, Canadian media eventually joined the bandwagon in ridiculing Trudeau’s disastrous Indian trip, but only after it became too hard to ignore.
> 
> From the get go, the Indian press were unimpressed with Mr. Dress Up’s patronizing costumes and endless photo-ops.


Federal claim of Indian interference in Trudeau event is ‘dangerously irresponsible,’ says Andrew Scheer



> The suggestion by a senior government official that rogue political elements in India were behind the invitation of a Sikh extremist to an event with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is “dangerously irresponsible” and risks eroding diplomatic ties, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer says.
> 
> Scheer criticized the government’s damage control efforts that saw unnamed officials — perhaps one or more — suggest in some news reports that officials in India were somehow behind the embarrassing invitation of a convicted Sikh extremist, Jaspal Atwal, to an event with Trudeau during his India visit.


PMO disputes that Trudeau and Atwal were friends



> A man convicted of attempted murder who was invited to a dinner reception with Justin Trudeau in India says he had a friendly relationship with the prime minister, and stayed away to save him from further embarrassment.
> 
> But the Prime Minister's Office says there is no merit to the assertions by Jaspal Atwal, who was convicted of attempted murder in the 1980s. It says he and Trudeau are not friends.


All Trudeau needed to do was denounce the Khalistan movement



> By now, you’ve no doubt read how a convicted Canadian Sikh terrorist Jaspal Atwal was invited to dinner with Prime Minister Trudeau and would have been a guest had it not been for my colleague Candice Malcolm and CBC’s Terry Milewski breaking the story.
> 
> But Atwal was not the only openly pro-Khalistani Canadian on the trip.
> 
> Meet Manvir Singh Saini, who was part of Trudeau’s media delegation and accompanied him to all official events and did attend the dinner from where Atwal was uninvited.


Pro-separatist Sikh Canadians praise Trudeau, slam Indian government and PM Modi



> Sikh Canadian pro-separatist figures are hailing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s trip to India as a success, and slamming the Indian government for its supposedly frosty treatment of Trudeau during much of his visit.
> 
> Trudeau, who arrived back in Ottawa Sunday morning, spent much of his time in India dodging and scrambling to address allegations that his government has helped nurture Sikh extremists, unwittingly or otherwise.


Trudeau Deals With Fallout From Disastrous India Trip



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau continues to try to explain how a convicted terrorist who attempted to assassinate an Indian cabinet minister became a VIP guest on his tour of India.
> 
> The entire tour has been mocked on social media and even ridiculed by Canada’s mainstream media. Trudeau has offered multiple photo-ops in traditional Indian clothing and even attempted local dance moves.


Why Trudeau’s disaster trip may trigger a reset in India-Canada ties



> Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau’s visit was a disaster that has little parallel in India’s recent diplomatic history. But as the Canadian prime minister returned home on Saturday after almost a week of recurrent diplomatic missteps, ironically, it may have provided the opportunity to reset relations between Canada and India.
> 
> On Saturday, Indian government officials were angry at suggestions by Canadian officials that India was responsible for Khalistani terrorist Jaspal Atwal getting a visa to India and used his presence to embarrass Trudeau.


The Sikh connection and Trudeau’s India embarrassment



> Those accustomed to seeing Canada sit atop international rankings of best-governed nations may be surprised to learn that a significant portion of Canadian democracy still has a decidedly crooked, 19th-century vibe. Since Canadian political parties operate on a “pay-to-play” basis — in which any voter who wishes to help nominate a politician for office must first sign a form and pay a membership fee — one of the most essential skills for any ambitious Canadian politico is an ability to sell large, but carefully targeted, numbers of party memberships to groups whose loyalty can be assured. This ordinarily includes friends, family members, employees, and coworkers. But, more controversially, it often includes religious congregations and immigrant or minority enclaves as well.


And finally, this little gem:

Indian PM promises to dress up like a Mountie, bring a convicted FLQ terrorist the next time he visits Canada



> Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi plans on reciprocating Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s efforts at embracing culture by dressing up as a Mountie and inviting a convicted terrorist the next time he visits Canada.
> 
> “I look forward to dressing myself and my family in large Stetson hats, a scarlet uniform, and yelling ‘yeehaw!’” said Modi at a press conference with Trudeau. “I will smile and pose for the cameras, and ride a horse through Parliament as per the Canadian tradition.”
> 
> Modi explained that he intends on donning plaid and a toque pretending he was a lumberjack cutting down a mighty redwood in a pristine Canadian forest.
> 
> “And, of course, I will dress up as a hockey player even though I plan on visiting in the middle of the summer,” added Modi. “That’s strange, _eh_?”


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

And one more.

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> "My father raised us to step toward trouble rather than to step away from it." - JustinTrudeau


Which is precisely why he skipped QP today...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

They Admire His Basic Pricktatorship



> _Tonight on @CTVNationalNews an #exclusive: CTV News has learned that Indian security services wanted to see guest lists for Trudeau events. They were denied. As is now already widely reported - neither CSIS or the RCMP had cleared the names on guest lists #cdnpoli
> — Mercedes Stephenson (@CTVMercedes) February 27, 2018_​


You go, Mr. Dressup!!!

Interesting related link inside, towards which this prescient comment is directed:



> _So the lawyer representing a terrorist that was suing the Canadian government gets appointed to the federal court by the leader of the Canadian government. I need to sit down for a second._​


'Bout sums it up...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

It was wearing thin before the goof even got elected...

[URL="http://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/nelson-trudeaus-style-over-substance-is-wearing-thin/wcm/dc8396ab-ac4e-4c30-881b-7f5925dea1fa]Trudeau's style over substance is wearing thin[/URL]



> “Is it just me or is this choreographed cuteness all just a bit much now?”
> 
> Before being accused of plagiarism, I must immediately explain that these are not my words, though they capture precisely the feelings engendered by our peacock prime minister and his accompanying brood as they played “let’s all dress up” on last week’s dreadful disaster of a trip to the Indian subcontinent.
> 
> No, the sentiment above, expressed, as is the norm these days, in tweet form, belongs to Omar Abdullah, the former chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> Omar, obviously much better equipped to understand the nuance and symbolism of suitable Indian attire and conduct than I could ever dream of being, then added: “Also FYI we Indians don’t dress like this every day sir, not even in Bollywood.”
> 
> It’s nice to see that an understanding and appreciation of good taste and appropriate manners can transcend many things, even geography, culture and faith. *Because when most of us see a charlatan, we recognize him for exactly that.*


Bold mine.

Unfortunately, not even close to "most"...


----------



## [email protected]

LOL

Somehow I ended up browsing the last 20 pages of this thread, although I had popped into this forum regarding a mac matter.

Thank you.
It was worth the chuckle.

Trudeau + + + + + 
I have avoided social networking the past 16 months for any peek I make at Facebook and other sites, has sent me running.
Good to know there are some people out there that think/feel as i do.
I had about lost hope so I enjoyed these last 20 odd pages


----------



## FeXL

[email protected] said:


> LOL
> 
> Somehow I ended up browsing the last 20 pages of this thread, although I had popped into this forum regarding a mac matter.
> 
> Thank you.
> It was worth the chuckle.
> 
> Trudeau + + + + +
> I have avoided social networking the past 16 months for any peek I make at Facebook and other sites, has sent me running.
> Good to know there are some people out there that think/feel as i do.
> I had about lost hope so I enjoyed these last 20 odd pages


Hi, [email protected]!

Welcome to ehMac.

Having contributed significantly to the last 20 pages of this thread, I'm glad you enjoyed the read.

Feel free to contribute at any time.


----------



## FeXL

*Becasuth ith's 2015!*

So, The Hairdo outright lied.

Congratulations to those of you who voted for this idiot. You should be proud. The rest of us are merely embarrassed... 

Official Spokesperson's response to a query on invitation to Jaspal Atwal



> In response to a query regarding invitation to Jaspal Atwal, the Official Spokesperson Raveesh Kumar said:
> 
> "We have seen the recent exchange in the Parliament of Canada regarding two invitations issued to Jaspal Atwal by the Canadian High Commissioner, for functions hosted in honour of the Canadian Prime Minister in India.
> 
> Let me categorically state that the Government of India, including the security agencies, had nothing to do with the presence of Jaspal Atwal at the event hosted by the Canadian High Commissioner in Mumbai or the invitation issued to him for the Canadian High Commissioner's reception in New Delhi. Any suggestion to the contrary is baseless and unacceptable.”


Taken verbatim from the Gov't of India Ministry of External Affairs website.

Related:

Jaspal Atwal, the Aga Khan and Trudeau's shifting definition of friendship



> In the era of social media, the word ‘friend’ has lost some of its meaning. In fact, a new related word has cropped up in our language — the ‘unfriending’ of a friend. And its use has now reached the highest levels of our government with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ‘unfriending’ the convicted terrorist and would-be assassin Jaspal Atwal.
> 
> Perhaps Trudeau just doesn’t know the meaning of the word ‘friend’. Maybe papa Trudeau should have gifted young Justin a copy of the works of the great Arab-American poet and novelist Khalil Gibran, who once said: “Friendship is always a sweet responsibility, never an opportunity.”


Far too deep a concept for The Spawn...


----------



## macintosh doctor

this says it all..


----------



## FeXL

macintosh doctor said:


> this says it all..


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Huh. 'Magine that. It wasn't the Indians, after all. It was another Prog...

Meet Canada's new "Austin Powers" 



> _On Thursday, Surrey Centre *Liberal MP Randeep Sarai confessed that it was he who greased the wheels for Atwal in India*, not some cell of cunning Indian spies._​


Links' bold.

It'll be interesting to see if the damage control turns out worse than the actual event. Doubt it...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Couldn't be because of The Hairdo at the reins. No way...

Foreign direct investment in Canada plunges to the lowest in eight years



> Foreign direct investment into Canada plunged last year to the lowest since 2010, *hampered by an exodus of capital from the nation’s oil patch and worries about the fate of the North American Free Trade Agreement.*
> 
> Direct investment dropped 26 per cent in 2017 to $33.8 billion, Statistics Canada reported Thursday in Ottawa. Capital flows dropped for a second year, and are down by more than half since 2015. The investment that did take place was from reinvested earnings of existing operations. Net foreign purchases of Canadian businesses turned negative for the first time in a decade, which means that foreign companies sold more Canadian businesses than they bought.


What? Investors don't want to spend their money in a country governed by Prog idiots who want to keep oil in the ground and who want to tack social justice issues onto international commerce agreements?

Who knew? (Hint: everybody but the Progs...)


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin Trudeau’s Disastrous India Trip Proved He’s An Empty Kurta



> A diplomatic disaster is an understatement to describe Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s recent state visit to India. What went wrong? A combination of narcissism, ignorance of culture and history, and lack of sound judgment were reflected in how the trip was planned and executed, Trudeau’s fashion faux pas and culture overreach, and diplomatic missteps.


That pretty much speaks for itself.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Any guesses whose rights are going to be enshrined in law next?

Trudeau Will Recognize Separate ‘Indigenous Rights’



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Wednesday that he intends to recognize “indigenous rights” above and beyond those already guaranteed to every citizen by the Canadian Charter of Rights.
> 
> The decision has set social media ablaze with criticism and fury as many accuse Trudeau of dividing the country on racial grounds.
> 
> Speaking to the House of Commons, Trudeau vaguely outlined a two-tier justice system that he says will enable Aboriginal people to be “in control of their own destiny.”


Reactions:



> As Mark Davidson’s tweet suggested:
> 
> http://https://twitter.com/markdavid416/status/963879542862397440
> 
> _“Is the PM, in effect, saying that his father’s “Charter of Rights and Freedoms”…and Diefenbaker’s “Bill of Rights”…were both INSUFFICIENT ? Aren’t ALL Canadians under EQUAL RIGHTS ? How should Indigenous peoples gain MORE RIGHTS than ALL other Canadians ?_​
> Another tweet called the policy divisive:
> 
> http://https://twitter.com/kim_dkb/status/963891338490998784
> 
> _“Ya see this kind of action breeds more hate and deepens the divide. One person in a family can not have more rights than the other. We are all in it together or cut up Canada right now.”_​
> And one Twitter user even referenced Trudeau’s preference for “peoplekind”:
> 
> http://https://twitter.com/kda_6666/status/963880170905001984
> 
> _“If indigenous peoplekind get to make there own rights, why the hell don’t the rest of us??? Sounds like different rules for different peoplekind to me!! You should really listen to yourself sometime.”_​


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Ah, yes. Another Liberal lies, obfuscates, distracts and otherwise bull$h!ts his way through a 9 minute interview. If you have the stomach for it, click the second link. That link also has a text article. Otherwise, the precis is in the first.

Pride Of Regina-Wascana



> _ MUST WATCH: Ralph Goodale speaks to reporters after testifying at Public Safety/National Security committee re: Atwal invite in India. Then after fleeing cameras, Randeep Sarai comes around the corner. https://t.co/JfkrXncGv5 #cdnpoli pic.twitter.com/rFoVIhbkIF
> — Michel Boyer (@BoyerMichel) March 1, 2018_​


Liberals block Tory effort to call national security adviser to testify on Atwal



> Liberal MPs have thwarted a bid by Conservatives to force Justin Trudeau's national security adviser to explain his assertion that rogue elements in the Indian government sabotaged the prime minister's trip to India last week.
> 
> The Liberals used their majority on the Commons' national security committee Thursday to block a Conservative motion asking that Daniel Jean be summoned to testify about his theory that factions in India were behind the furor over Jaspal Atwal, a convicted attempted assassin and one-time Sikh separatist extremist who wound up on the guest list for two events with Trudeau during the India tour.
> 
> Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, who was at the committee to discuss his department's spending estimates, also declined to discuss Jean's theory, telling Conservative MPs they were veering into classified territory that he's not at liberty to discuss.


Classified. Yeah, that's the fallback position for the Progs, ain't it...


----------



## CubaMark

_So... the Canada Wheat Board privatization coming back to bit farmers in the ass? And now they want the government to pass legislation to their benefit? Ideology trumped reality, and you reap what you sow...._

*Rail shipment delays causing 'dire situation' for Canadian farmers*| CBC News










*Related: *http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else...nadian-wheat-board.html?highlight=wheat+board


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> _So... the Canada Wheat Board privatization coming back to bit farmers in the ass? And now they want the government to pass legislation to their benefit? Ideology trumped reality, and you reap what you sow...._


Wow, what a stretch that comment is. Issues with railway delivery problems has SFA to do with the demise of the CWB. Nada, none and ziltch. Their benefit? Good grief all they want to do is get paid. It's an export issue for Canada.


----------



## macintosh doctor

amazing a drugged up conservative can save the city money and a sober liberal can not LOL


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Wow, what a stretch that comment is. Issues with railway delivery problems has SFA to do with the demise of the CWB. Nada, none and ziltch. Their benefit? Good grief all they want to do is get paid. It's an export issue for Canada.


His post offers no context and no respect for history. Trains were also backed up during the days of the CWB, but the issue didn't have the same media traction before it could be framed as an anti-Harper article.


----------



## SINC

And on it goes. Canada's embarrassment . . .

*India slams Canadian PM Justin Trudeau for Atwal visa slur*

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-for-atwal-visa-slur/articleshow/63118588.cms


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> His post offers no context and no respect for history.


Precisely. Having lived on a mixed farm for >20 years I can assure you that waiting for grain cars to arrive at the elevator was not an isolated event.

I also laugh at CM scoffing about a legislated solution when, on the other hand, he's looking for a legislated solution to an alleged "gun problem".


----------



## SINC

Best news I have read in three years. 

Justin Trudeau would lose if an election were held tomorrow, India trip a symptom of shift in mood: Ipsos poll

https://globalnews.ca/news/4058984/justin-trudeau-india-trip-ipsos-poll/amp/


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Best news I have read in three years.
> 
> Justin Trudeau would lose if an election were held tomorrow, India trip a symptom of shift in mood: Ipsos poll


What I find most interesting about those numbers is that, after 2-1/2 years of political face plants, lies, deception, misdirection, FUBAR's, ah's & um's, Carbon Tax, _et al_., there are still one in 3 people who think he's prime ministerial material...

Related:


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Precisely. Having lived on a mixed farm for >20 years I can assure you that waiting for grain cars to arrive at the elevator was not an isolated event.


No, it wasn't. But when the CWB existed, it worked precisely on issues of branch track abandonment / preservation / rail car supply in order to meet the needs of the entirety of farmers. With a wee bit of research, you could have figured that out yourself.



FeXL said:


> I also laugh at CM scoffing about a legislated solution when, on the other hand, he's looking for a legislated solution to an alleged "gun problem".


You missed the (very obvious) point: that those who arranged the theft of the CWB resources (follow link posted previously to the 'how-can-that-be-legal' transfer of CWB assets) to get it out of the hands of government are now themselves looking to the government to address a problem that they contributed to creating.

The folks who commented on the article linked above have offered more information than I have on the matter. Do have a read.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> So the lawyer representing a terrorist that was suing the Canadian government gets appointed to the federal court by the leader of the Canadian government.


_So the lawyer representing a CANADIAN CITIZEN, A CHILD SOLDIER BY ANY ACCEPTED DEFINITION was suing the Canadian government FOR VIOLATION OF HIS CIVIL RIGHTS, A MATTER WHICH THE GOVERNMENT LOST IN FRONT OF THE COURTS ON MULTIPLE PREVIOUS OCCASIONS gets appointed to the federal court by the leader of the Canadian government._​
*Fixed that for ya.*


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> _So the lawyer representing a CANADIAN CITIZEN, A CHILD SOLDIER BY ANY ACCEPTED DEFINITION was suing the Canadian government FOR VIOLATION OF HIS CIVIL RIGHTS, A MATTER WHICH THE GOVERNMENT LOST IN FRONT OF THE COURTS ON MULTIPLE PREVIOUS OCCASIONS gets appointed to the federal court by the leader of the Canadian government._​
> 
> 
> *Fixed that for ya.*



Some people prefer to do their own edits. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

That emoji makes it look like you're constipated.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Some people prefer to do their own edits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> No, it wasn't. But when the CWB existed, it worked precisely on issues of branch track abandonment / preservation / rail car supply in order to meet the needs of the entirety of farmers. With a wee bit of research, you could have figured that out yourself.


It worked so well that farmers voted to abandon it,



CubaMark said:


> You missed the (very obvious) point: that those who arranged the theft of the CWB resources (follow link posted previously to the 'how-can-that-be-legal' transfer of CWB assets) to get it out of the hands of government are now themselves looking to the government to address a problem that they contributed to creating.


That's because transportation policy remains a federal matter. In a freer transportation environment, their personal choices would be enough to drive the wheat transportation market.


----------



## SINC

GUNTER: Self-defence is a right, especially for rural residents | Toronto Sun


----------



## Macfury

Justin Trudeau explains trade:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Interesting take.

Trudeau’s India bungle had one cause: Fear of Jagmeet Singh



> The official rationale for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s recent India trip was to promote foreign investment and trade. But it’s real purpose was all domestic politics.
> 
> And specifically, the India trip was all about He-Who-Liberals-Must-Not-Name: Jagmeet Singh, who’s working to build NDP support among Indo-Canadian voters.
> 
> The Liberals are absolutely obsessed and paranoid about The-Opponent-They-Will-Not-Name.
> 
> A couple of months ago, Liberal MPs confidently defeated an NDP motion to immediately start provincial discussions about pharmacare. But then, two weeks ago, Don’t-Name-Him told his party convention that universal pharamcare was a key NDP goal. And — bam! — last week’s budget was full of Liberal talk of “national pharmacare.”


----------



## FeXL

I'm sorry, have you been officially schooled in the economics of agricultural products? And a pissant acreage on the coast don't account for much. No? Then WTF are you doing commenting on the CWB?

It don't matter how it worked. The CWB was late with cars, too.

Plus, _plus_, they charged usurious fees to farmers. And, they wouldn't let farmer's participate in a true free market.

Guys I went to school with, grew up with, who are now farmers themselves & have been for near 40 years are not in anyway, shape or form interested in seeing the return of your much vaunted CWB...



CubaMark said:


> But when the CWB existed, it worked precisely on issues of branch track abandonment...blah, blah, blah


CWB resources?

They were Canadian farmer's resources...



CubaMark said:


> ...that those who arranged the theft of the CWB resources...


----------



## FeXL

I'm sorry, I didn't know your massive journalism experience was with whitewashing MotherCorpse. You obviously aced it...

It's funny that a 15 year old can be considered by Progs to be a "child soldier", yet many Progs are suggesting lowering the voting age to 16.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



CubaMark said:


> Prog spin & doublespeak, _ad nauseaum_...
> 
> Fixed that for ya.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> CWB resources?
> 
> They were Canadian farmer's resources...


Owned collectively by farmers who sold their product to the CWB. Are you incapable of acknowledging that there was significant opposition among farmers to the CWB privatization (in gift-wrapped form to the Saudis) undertaken as an ideological act by the Harper Con$ervatives.

Here's a recent article that looks at the current state of affairs post-CWB (warning: at least on my version of Safari 11.0.3, the 'responsive' page doesn't "unroll" when you scroll down. I had to view it in Chrome):

*Playing the field*
_Five years after the Canadian Wheat Board was dismantled, many farmers relish the freedom to market their crops, while others still mourn the loss_

[...]
For Bast, freeing farmers to sell their wheat and barley to whomever they choose, whenever they choose, has boosted farm revenues, accelerated the receipt of income and provides more flexibility to deal with market changes.

"In the long-term and in the general, it was definitely a good move," Bast said of ending the wheat board system. "Overall, I think it was a positive for Canadian farmers, in their net flows, their cash flows and for the growth of Canadian agriculture, as well."

He admits there were some strong feelings on both sides of the debate at the time.
[...]
For Robson, farmers lost valuable clout with railways, lose control of their grain the moment it enters an elevator and suffer price declines more than they benefit from price upswings. As well, he said, ending the board accelerated the growth of super farms and rings a death knell to family farms.

"We’re leaking money into the hands of the elevator companies, grain companies and railways," Robson said. "There are a whole bunch of farmers missing the Canadian Wheat Board, whether they realize it or not."

Robson points to studies by the National Farmers Union showing farm incomes as a percentage of grain price fell from between 84 and 92 per cent to between 40 and 60 per cent.

"With the wheat board, the grain companies were on a fixed income," he said. "They were making all kinds of money with the board but they wanted to make more, and that’s what they got when farmers lost the wheat board."

(More at: Winnipeg Free Press)​


----------



## SINC

Time for people to read this opinion piece in the Edmonton Journal outlining the background of the matter of grain delivery in Canada.

You will note (won't you?) that *nowhere in this overview and opinion on the situation is there any mention in any form of the issue being even remotely related to the CWB*. None. Nada. Zero.

Editorial: Different backlog, same inertia | Edmonton Journal


----------



## FeXL

That's what I said: Farmer's Resources.



CubaMark said:


> Owned collectively by farmers who sold their product to the CWB.


There was also significant & ideological opposition to the ending of slavery. Does that mean ending it was wrong? Curiously, with both sets of circumstances, it's the left that's doing all the bleating. You just hate losing control, don't you...



CubaMark said:


> Are you incapable of acknowledging that there was significant opposition among farmers to the CWB privatization (in gift-wrapped form to the Saudis) undertaken as an ideological act...


Robson is an idiot.

First off, farmer's _never_ had any clout with the railways. They were/are a monopoly. That was part of the problem. None of that has changed.

Second, on losing control of their grain once it enters an elevator, no $h!t, Sherlock. That's what happens when you sell something. It now belongs to someone else. You no longer have to track it, worry what the final price will be, wait for that final payment or wonder how much the CWB is screwing you over. You've eliminated that middle man & all associated costs.

Third, precisely what standard is he using to the measure the alleged acceleration? Living out here in grain country, I can tell you that small family farms have all but gone by the wayside anyway. It's happening whether he likes it or not.



> For Robson, farmers lost valuable clout with railways, lose control of their grain the moment it enters an elevator and suffer price declines more than they benefit from price upswings. As well, he said, ending the board accelerated the growth of super farms and rings a death knell to family farms.


As opposed to leaking money to the CWB?

As to his observation about missing the CWB? Well, that's his opinion and, frankly, it's worth about the same as yours.

And, I jes' luvs me his scientific terminology: "a whole bunch". Precisely how many does that entail? One percent? 10? 50?



> "We’re leaking money into the hands of the elevator companies, grain companies and railways," Robson said. "There are a whole bunch of farmers missing the Canadian Wheat Board, whether they realize it or not."


I haven't read said reports but the first question I'd ask is, "Could there be any other reason for the alleged fall?" Correlation is not causation.



> Robson points to studies by the National Farmers Union showing farm incomes as a percentage of grain price fell from between 84 and 92 per cent to between 40 and 60 per cent.


Farmers didn't "lose" the CWB. They cheerfully gave it the shoe...



> ...when farmers lost the wheat board."


----------



## Macfury

I might add that not all family wheat farms are efficient businesses. In a market system, some will go under while others will thrive. Setting production quotas discourages efficiency by subsidizing the operations of inefficient farmers.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Would somebody, please, just make him quit & go away?

"Every living thing starts as a scientist. When you are a baby, you're a scientist," the PM says."'If I make this noise, I get milk.'"

This reply gets it mostly correct:



> Corey Gerein
> 
> Nope. That's not what it means to be scientific. Crying to get a reward is more of a drama teacher approach to a problem.


A _Progressive, subsititute_ drama teacher...


----------



## FeXL

So, Mountain Equipment Co-op has decided to stop selling brands owned by Vista Outdoors, manufacturer of firearms in the US.

MEC says they’ll drop brands tied to U.S. gun manufacturer Vista Outdoor



> By stopping the sale of brands tied to gun manufacturing, the chief executive of Mountain Equipment Co-op says the company can play a role in advancing discussions around gun control.
> 
> David Labistour announced Thursday that MEC will stop selling several outdoor equipment brands owned by Vista Outdoor Inc., which is also a gun manufacturer.


I've been a member of MEC since 1988 and have purchased thousands of dollars of equipment & gear from them over the years. I just cut up my membership card. If you are a member & disagree with their virtue signalling, I urge you to do the same.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Professor Trudeau:

The Sound Of Shiny Science

From the comments:



> I turned a door handle this morning, walked outside and froze my ass off. That makes me a climate scientist.


Works for me...

And this one:



> That went well.
> Tomorrow the Prime Minister wil be explaining how all babies are truck drivers when he meets transportation experts at the anual transport convention.
> Then on to hypothesis how all babies are Indians when he meets first nations leaders later this week.


More.

And why am I not surprised this happened in the company of that huckster, Bill Nye the Nonscience Guy?

And, where's the support from the left for this rocket surgeon and his observation? CM? Freddie? Priapus guy? Or is hith BS too much even for you diehards?



FeXL said:


> Would somebody, please, just make him quit & go away?


----------



## FeXL

Don't look now but here comes the cheque book...

Canadian man pleads guilty to U.S. terror charges in alleged murder conspiracy



> A Canadian man pleaded guilty Tuesday to U.S. charges that he sent money and provided long-distance support to Tunisian jihadists believed responsible for a 2009 suicide attack in Iraq that killed five American soldiers. The deal could spare him a term of life behind bars.
> 
> Faruq Khalil Muhammad 'Isa entered the plea in federal court in Brooklyn, N.Y., for a murder conspiracy charge that carried a maximum life sentence. He instead faces a 26-year prison term followed by deportation as part of the deal, which a judge still must sign off on.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> So, Mountain Equipment Co-op has decided to stop selling brands owned by Vista Outdoors, manufacturer of firearms in the US.
> 
> MEC says they’ll drop brands tied to U.S. gun manufacturer Vista Outdoor
> 
> 
> 
> I've been a member of MEC since 1988 and have purchased thousands of dollars of equipment & gear from them over the years. I just cut up my membership card. If you are a member & disagree with their virtue signalling, I urge you to do the same.


Should that not be a decision made by the members? If customers/members are not buying those products, then the outfit can stop carrying them. 

If X makes the best or only version of whatever item I want/need, then I will buy the X product. I might make an exception if X was Israeli, but that would depend entirely on what competitors had to offer.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Should that not be a decision made by the members? If customers/members are not buying those products, then the outfit can stop carrying them.


I agree. Especially an issue of this magnitude. Fire out a group email, give a certain length of time to respond, count the votes & proceed.

I spoke at length to 3 people at MEC yesterday. 

One was the manager of the Calgary store who listened but would not engage. She iterated that MEC had no problems with guns or gun owners and that this was a decision based on feedback they had received. I told her it was difficult to believe the first part of the statement.

Another was an underling merely manning the phone in Vancouver. After listening to me for several minutes she forwarded me to her supervisor. 

I went into some depth in my discussion with her. She also would not engage, save to quote the narrative, & noted that they had received "tens of thousands" of contacts regarding this issue, in addition to the petition. I'm somewhat sceptical of said numbers, but whatever.

I also told her that I didn't think it was MEC's mandate to virtue signal about issues in another country that had no effect on Canadians in the first place. Too, I outlined at length why this particular shooting was the effect of failed policy at 3 levels of gov't from the get go & not the cause. She said she'd pass my concerns on.

Even if she does, I doubt it will have much effect. Either way, I'm outta there. I will not support any business that responds favourably to shrieking from the crazed left instead of calmly & rationally evaluating the facts of the issue.

Related:


----------



## SINC

Once an ass, always an ass. And most will add 'hole' to that sentiment if asked. Time for the Liberals to get rid of this sock boy dork.

Column: Justin – enough, already | Warren Kinsella


----------



## Rps




----------



## SINC

As his global image collapses and his poll numbers fall, Justin Trudeau is desperately churning out the lies. His latest attempt to deceive Canadians relates to Science Minister Kirsty Duncan. In the last week, Trudeau has twice said that Duncan is a "Nobel Prize winning scientist." She isn't. As noted by Global, Duncan's official government biography says she “served on the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.” That is how the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says individuals who worked on its prize-winning research should be attributed." Yet, at both a women's leadership event and an event with Bill Nye.

Read Here: https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...false-claim-science-minister-won-nobel-prize/


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> His latest attempt to deceive Canadians relates to Science Minister Kirsty Duncan. In the last week, Trudeau has twice said that Duncan is a "Nobel Prize winning scientist." She isn't. As noted by Global, Duncan's official government biography says she “served on the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.” That is how the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says individuals who worked on its prize-winning research should be attributed." Yet, at both a women's leadership event and an event with Bill Nye.


Related:

The Sound Of Shiny Science



> Come on, try to be fair. If a baby is a scientist, then then Kirsty Duncan is a Nobel laureate.


Nails it.

Comments pertinent.

As an aside, there are other people involved in that same International Panel of Climate Crooks who claim to have "won" the Nobel, too Links to Part 1. Parts 2-5 also available. 

Curious how the left will spin BS to make themselves look better than the rest of us...


----------



## Macfury

As I thought, Canada has received an indefinite suspension of tariff action by the US.


----------



## SINC

I was never a big fan of Conrad Black, but he lays Justin Trudeau bare in this opinion piece.

Conrad Black: Mr. Trudeau, if he can, should get serious about running this country | National Post


----------



## CubaMark

:yikes:



*Doug Ford?!?!?*

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Best news ever! He will bury Wynn and make Ontario great again! :clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Best news ever! He will bury Wynn and make Ontario great again! :clap::clap::clap::clap:


I have to say, I'm surprised at your position on Ford's apparent success here. Your views on drug use have been frequently expressed in this forum, and Doug Ford's history as a known drug dealer (and his family's involvement in the selling or - in Rob's case - the consumption of drugs) would seem to be at odds with that.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> I have to say, I'm surprised at your position on Ford's apparent success here. Your views on drug use have been frequently expressed in this forum, and Doug Ford's history as a known drug dealer (and his family's involvement in the selling or - in Rob's case - the consumption of drugs) would seem to be at odds with that.



And I have to say you obviously didn't hear that giant whoooooosh as the comment went right over your head. The 'make Ontario great again' reference was apparently entirely lost on you, was it? Didn't at all remind you of any other questionable leader elected down south?


----------



## FeXL

Syrian comedian breaks down Trudeau’s insanity better than any politician could



> ISIS – Islamic extremists – are committing horrible atrocities and killing many people. Yet when the Canadian PM was discussing ISIS, he called them “foreign travelers.” That’s a nice term we use to call teens backpacking across Europe. Or what my cousin is called when he goes on vacation. That is NOT what we call Islamic terrorists. Is Trudeau crazy? Did he forget that Islamic terrorists destroyed the World Trade Center and killed thousands of Americans? These are people are “foreign travelers”?!??


Related:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

I hope y'all remembered to put your clocks forward an hour! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> And I have to say you obviously didn't hear that giant whoooooosh as the comment went right over your head. The 'make Ontario great again' reference was apparently entirely lost on you, was it? Didn't at all remind you of any other questionable leader elected down south?


No, I got the reference to the Orange Buffoon-in-Chief, but the excess of applaudicons made me think you approved. Who did you favour in the race?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> No, I got the reference to the Orange Buffoon-in-Chief, but the excess of applaudicons made me think you approved. Who did you favour in the race?


Don't know about SINC, but I favour the person who takes down Wynne.


----------



## CubaMark

_Looks like this one ain't over yet...._

*Christine Elliott promised PCs unity, but refuses to unite behind Doug Ford*

It was supposed to be a glorious moment for the Ontario PCs: revealing their new leader in an energy-filled ballroom, showcasing a rejuvenated, united party to a big TV audience, proving to voters that they are ready to win the election in June. 

Instead, the Progressive Conservatives announced the winner in a small and drab meeting room, at 10 p.m. on a Saturday, with no music or bright lights, and only a handful of party members around to applaud Doug Ford's low-key victory speech.

Even that muted celebration is now being thrown into doubt. Christine Elliott is refusing to concede defeat. 

(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

Elliott needs to put a sock in it now. Taking it to court is an act of power-hungry desperation.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Elliott needs to put a sock in it now. Taking it to court is an act of power-hungry desperation.


Apparently, she's taken your advice, MF.

*Christine Elliott meets new Ontario PC Leader Doug Ford, gives him her support* | CBC News


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Don't know about SINC, but I favour the person who takes down Wynne.


Exactly.


----------



## SINC

One thing more. I do not think for one moment that the Conservative party wanted to make the election a Wynn versus any other woman battle. Just my guess, but I might be right. Ditto for the Ontario NDP leader. Come election time it may be that voters want a gender change as much as anything after so many years of catastrophic female rule.


----------



## FeXL

Just one more reason why I don't trust the bastards as far as I can throw 'em.

Statistics Canada loses, mishandles hundreds of sensitive census, employment files



> The federal agency in charge of collecting, analyzing and securely storing personal data about Canadians lost hundreds of sensitive files during the 2016 census process.
> 
> Incident reports obtained by CBC News through Access to Information detail 20 cases of information and privacy breaches by Statistics Canada, including long and short census surveys, home visit logs and personal employment records.
> 
> Some confidential documents were left on a subway or sent to the wrong home. Hundreds more were lost in a stolen car.
> 
> In that latter case, 587 long-form census forms filled out by First Nations residents were stored in the trunk of an employee’s vehicle that was stolen when he took a weekend trip to Montreal. The incident report does not specify the enumeration district.


More:



> Bérubé said the individuals in that case were not notified because Statistics Canada determined that there was “no reasonable expectation of serious risk to the individuals concerned.”
> 
> In other cases where census surveys were lost or sent by mistake to the wrong addresses, those affected were informed, provided with explanations and apologies and, in some cases, advised of their right to complain to the Privacy Commissioner.
> 
> But in the cases involving the Enoch and Stoney reserves, a decision was made not to notify the respondents about the privacy breaches. The incident reports suggest staff felt those already reluctant to take part in the census might be even more wary after learning about the loss of personal information.


Close enough for gov't work...


----------



## SINC

Looks like the Libs are gonna be toast. 

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/pcs-projected-to-win-majority-in-ontario/


----------



## SINC

In all thy sons command!

EDITORIAL: Trudeau’s disconnect from real issues only worsens | Ottawa Sun


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> In all thy sons command!


That meme's gonna have me giggling all day long... :lmao:


----------



## Rps

Sinc, it’s interesting about our anthem, personally I find it boring and prefer the FRENCH VERSION...

English version

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all of us command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.


French Lyrics With English Translation

O, Canada! terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux.
Car ton bras sait porter l’épée,
il sait porter la croix.
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.	

O, Canada! Land of our forefathers,
Thy brow is girt with glorious flowerlets.
For thy arm knows how to bear the sword,
It knows how to bear the cross.
Thy history is an epic
Of the most brilliant exploits.
And thy valor, tempered with faith,
Will protect our hearths and our rights!
Will protect our hearths and our rights!


And my personal choice The Maple Leaf Forever ( that’s excluding The Canadian Railroad Trilogy )

In Days of yore, 
From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain.
Here may it wave,
Our boast, our pride
And joined in love together, 
The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
The Maple Leaf Forever.

[CHORUS]
The Maple Leaf
Our Emblem Dear,
The Maple Leaf Forever.
God save our Queen and heaven bless,
The Maple Leaf Forever.

At Queenston Heights and Lundy's Lane
Our brave fathers side by side 
For freedom's home and loved ones dear,
Firmly stood and nobly died.
And so their rights which they maintained,
We swear to yeild them never.
Our watchword ever more shall be
The Maple Leaf Forever

[CHORUS]

Our fair Dominion now extends
From Cape Race to Nootka Sound
May peace forever be our lot
And plenty a store abound
And may those ties of love be ours
Which discord cannot sever
And flourish green for freedom's home
The Maple Leaf Forever

[CHORUS]


----------



## SINC

Think Trudeau isn't in trouble? Think again.

Live poll: As it stands right now, would you vote Liberal in 2019?


----------



## Rps

Sinc, I have been a Liberal for many years, but for many years I haven’t voted for them because I felt they didn’t deserve it.......looks like I’m not alone. At issue I feel is the general lack of grooming for posts. I think the last great cabinet was Trudeau seniors.....policy aside, he had a great cabinet.

I don’t think you can say that for Trudeau the younger. In fact, you only have to look at the leadership candidates for the major parties to see the paucity of talent. The Liberals decided to take a no experience “legacy” and promote him like a president....well once the shine has worn off you see what’s left. The Liberals have , again, due to poor leadership choice hung themselves out to dry. Ignore the current victory, I think it will be a long time before they have another one.


----------



## SINC

Yep and he continues to prove daily that he is an asshole first class and not electable for another term. Good riddance.

Trudeau Faces Growing Caucus Revolt Over Gun | The Daily Caller


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Yep and he continues to prove daily that he is an asshole first class:
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau Faces Growing Caucus Revolt Over Gun | The Daily Caller




Such inappropriate language, Don. I thought you were against the bad words.


----------



## SINC

Freddie it is you who use the truly bad words much more often than me, but desperate times call for a strong rebuke.


----------



## FeXL

Can you imagine the hue & cry from MotherCorpse & the rest of the Prog media if Harper had done something equivalent?

Jagmeet Singh attended Sikh separatist rally in 2015



> NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh took part in a separatist Sikh homeland rally in San Francisco in June of 2015 that venerated a violent Sikh religious leader who was killed in the Indian army assault on the Golden Temple in 1984.
> 
> Mr. Singh, then an NDP member of the Ontario Legislature, was invited to speak at a “sovereignty rally” where speakers denounced India and called for an independent Sikh state known as Khalistan.
> 
> Mr. Singh’s appearance at the 2015 rally could have an impact in the Indo-Canadian community where all three main political parties compete for votes in key ridings in the Greater Toronto area and Lower Mainland in British Columbia.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Can you imagine the hue & cry from MotherCorpse & the rest of the Prog media if Harper had done something equivalent?
> 
> Jagmeet Singh attended Sikh separatist rally in 2015


Glad to see the NDP hang their hat on this leader. You will excuse the hat reference, won't you?


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Glad to see the NDP hang their hat on this leader. You will excuse the hat reference, won't you?


So we have a prime minister who went to India for whatever reason and was attached with a known terrorist who was tried for attempted murder of an Indian prime minister. We have an NDP leader who attended terrorist meetings as early as 2015.

I guess this is what is meant by our politicians sikhing re-election.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Can you imagine the hue & cry from MotherCorpse & the rest of the Prog media if Harper had done something equivalent?
> 
> Jagmeet Singh attended Sikh separatist rally in 2015





Rps said:


> So we have a prime minister who went to India for whatever reason and was attached with a known terrorist who was tried for attempted murder of an Indian prime minister. We have an NDP leader who attended terrorist meetings as early as 2015.
> 
> I guess this is what is meant by our politicians sikhing re-election.


So Canada's Paw-lie-tishuns have found an even smaller group than the Zionist Jews to whom they can pander. It had to happen eventually. 

Just wish they'd use their own money instead of ours.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Glad to see the NDP hang their hat on this leader. You will excuse the hat reference, won't you?


<snerk...>

Yep... 

Related:

Jagmeet Singh attended 2016 seminar with Sikh youth leader who advocated political violence



> NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh participated in a pro-sovereignty seminar in 2016 with the co-founder of the British-based National Sikh Youth Federation who endorsed the use of political violence as a “legitimate form of resistance” to achieve an independent Sikh homeland in India.
> 
> This is the second instance where Mr. Singh has taken part in events where Sikh extremists denounced India and called for an independent state known as Khalistan.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Wonder if juthdin's noth is still out of joint at being ignored in India...

Trudeau skips meeting Belgian royalty, business delegation



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is raising diplomatic eyebrows for not meeting with Belgian royalty and business leaders during their week-long visit to Canada.
> 
> Trudeau has no plans to meet with the Belgian royal couple, King Philippe and Queen Mathilde, or their delegation of 150 business leaders, academics and political leaders, who arrived Sunday.
> 
> While senior members of the Quebec and Ontario governments and business leaders are scheduled to meet with the group, sources tell the Star the delegation feels snubbed by the federal Liberals.
> 
> “With CETA, we’re even closer to Europe right now. We should be aligning ourselves on the political front,” said one source, refering to the free trade deal between the European Union and Canada.


More:



> The prime minister this week is touring steel and aluminum facilities in Quebec and Ontario communities to voice opposition to potential American tariffs on those industries.


Oh, & _this_:

Belgian royals greeted in Canada with German flag



> A German flag accidentally flapped Monday at an official welcome in Canada for Belgium's king and queen.
> 
> The flag with horizontal stripes of black, red and yellow was affixed to a tree along with Canada's flag outside the residence of Governor General Julie Payette.
> 
> On Belgium's banner the black, yellow and red stripes are vertical.


Perfect...

Related:


----------



## SINC

Why the federal NDP will never form a government with the current leader.

BONOKOSKI: Sikh homeland rally? What was Jagmeet Singh thinking? | Toronto Sun


----------



## SINC

People sure do love that Trudeau guy, don't they?


----------



## Rps

Well Sinc, they love him in France and Australia..... and they can’t wait for him to take another trade tour so they can scoop up contracts after the visited country balks at his insistence on human rights, gender equality etc.... included in the trade agreement ......... yup he’s a statesman alright.


----------



## SINC

Yeah, but the horse's patootie keeps writing his obit:

Trudeau blasted by Brazilian magazine and Amnesty International
'Everything is wrong with Canada's prime minister — except his appearance'

Trudeau blasted by Brazilian magazine and Amnesty International - Politics - CBC News


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Scheer’s delight? If an election were held tomorrow, CPC could have a shot at majority government



> The passage of time appears to have done nothing to soothe Canadian voters irritated with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau since his highly criticized passage to India last month.
> 
> This, combined with a simmering unease among the electorate over the federal government’s deficit spending has, for the first time, driven Trudeau’s disapproval rating north of 50 per cent.
> 
> All of this adds up to a ten-point gap between the Liberal and Conservative parties in vote intention. The latest polling analysis from the Angus Reid Institute shows that if an election were held tomorrow, the CPC – led by Andrew Scheer, would be in range to form a majority government.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Incurious, the hypocritical double standard...

"This country, Canada, it belongs to us".



> According to _Le Devoir_, *the Quebec ministry of the environment has decided that these two projects, with the potential for thousands of jobs between them, won't have to meet both "upstream" and "downstream" emissions tests before being approved.*


Yeah, bold mine.

This, along with a 3 foot flame, really burns my ass...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

What words will Justin Trudeau ban next?



> We’re shocked Canada’s progressive Prime Minister Justin Trudeau needs more time to look into a Service Canada directive ordering federal employees to adopt gender-neutral language when interacting with the public.
> 
> Time for what?
> 
> Canada’s virtue-signaling, feminist PM has rarely shied away from lecturing others about the need to foster inclusion, the rationale behind a new policy being defended by Families Minister Jean-Yves Duclos.
> 
> As reported by Radio-Canada, Duclos’ ministry asked Service Canada staff to adopt “gender-neutral language or gender-inclusive language” when dealing with the public to avoid “portraying a perceived bias toward a particular sex or gender.”
> 
> Workers have also been asked to stop referring to people as Mr., Mrs. or Ms. and avoid using the terms “father” and “mother” in favour of “parent,” according to a memo obtained by Radio-Canada.


The first Service Canada peoplekind that doesn't refer to me as "Mr" is going to be read the riot act. I'm actually relishing that opportunity...

More:



> We’d complain about “Big Brother,” but fear that’s no longer acceptable either.


SEXIST!!!


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth iths 2015!*

So, the Nat'l Post has compiled a list of political donations. _Tres_ interesting...

WHO BACKS CANADA’S POLITICIANS?

Very related:

Follow The Money: William Thomas Molloy



> The importance of the National Post's donation tracker thing cannot be overstated. You can reveal so much about everything. For example, this guy was recently sworn in as the Trudeau-appointed Lieutenant Governor of Saskatchewan.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth iths 2015!*

No, please...carry on.

Liberal investigation into systemic racism should keep a low profile



> You may be proud of your home and your community, but you’re living on unceded Indigenous land, as Liberal cabinet ministers insist almost everywhere they go.
> 
> You may consider yourself environmentally responsible, but that SUV you drive is an abomination, which is the whole reason behind the carbon tax.
> 
> You may consider yourself free of prejudice, but apparently this country suffers from systemic racism and Islamophobia, which is why we need a task force.
> 
> As conservative commentators and politicians are certain to point out, the worst example of religious discrimination under way right now might come from the Liberal government itself. *Employment and Social Development Canada has cancelled funding for a summer-jobs program to churches and other religious organizations because they refuse to affirm on the application form that they respect “reproductive rights and the right to be free of discrimination” on the basis of, among other things, “sexual orientation or gender identity or expression.”*


Yeah, my bold.

Curious there's been no discussion here from the left on this particular topic. The irony is that, in attempting to root out "discrimination", the idiots are, in fact, engaging in discrimination... XX)


----------



## FeXL

1 in 5 Muslim Canadians say they face discrimination



> In the University of Waterloo research, one in five Muslim Canadians said that they *experienced discrimination due to their religion, ethnicity or culture at least once in the past five years.*


Yeah, bold mine.

Perhaps if their culture wasn't based on rape, repression & misogyny, people would have a higher opinion of them.

Once in 5 years. Hell, in that case I've been discriminated against 3 or 4 times in the same time period. First Immigrants calling me ****** & far worse. 

Oh, I know, CM. I deserved it...


----------



## SINC

Yep, it has come to this and Trudeau and Notley alike are riding the train wreck.

Lawrence Solomon: Trudeau will learn a painful lesson - voters really dislike climate crusading | Financial Post


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Yep, it has come to this and Trudeau and Notley alike are riding the train wreck.


Can't come soon enough. For either of them...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau's rush to unilaterally impose political correctness will generate backlash



> It was a week the Liberals’ fixation with political correctness became politically incorrect.
> 
> Amid a clear meltdown in Liberal government poll support, new moves on gender and tolerance issues were met by a head-shaking, eye-rolling, derision-snorting reaction from a public fed up with the excess of it all.
> 
> The government’s proud plan to road-trip consultations on racism, with an eye to infusing every policy with anti-discrimination measures, was quickly put on ice. Quebec MPs in the Liberal caucus sounded the alarm about the perils of cross-Canada hearings whipping up Islamophobia or worse.
> 
> And that bizarre Service Canada decree to ban gender specific terms like ‘father’ or ‘mother’, ‘Mr.’ or ‘Mrs.’ from all telephone communications had the government doing backflips to insist the policy had been refined.
> 
> The message seems to be finally getting through: Justin Trudeau has become so identified with kumbaya peoplekind priorities that he’s lost the appearance of leading a serious government.


The Hairdo can kiss my hairy, unwashed, politically incorrect arse every day of the week & twice on Sundays. In front of the post office. At high noon...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Going for Broke, the Canadian Way



> It is no surprise that the new budget tabled by Justin Trudeau’s Liberals is permeated through and through by the feminist mentality. Writing on LifeSiteNews, Lianne Laurence argues that Trudeau’s federal budget “institutionalizes feminism, panders to left-wing interest groups, patronizes women, and is long on ideology and bureaucratic meddling, but short on economics.” It includes, among other spending measures, a “feminist foreign aid agenda,” as well as “billions to boost women in the workforce,” as the Toronto Star reports. One recalls the late Senator Everett Dirksen, who reportedly joked: “A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you’re talking about real money.”
> 
> *Indeed, so pronounced is its feminist bent that the budget “appears to have been written out of Status of Women Canada … or perhaps a campus gender studies course: this is surely the world’s first ‘intersectional’ budget,” wrote National Post columnist Andrew Coyne. It is, in his words, merely a “mix of ideological cant and bureaucratic busywork known as ‘gender-based analysis,’” rendering us graphically uncompetitive with the U.S. and “any other OECD country.”*


Bold mine.

Doesn't matter. As long as Butts' talking points get in there...

Related:

You'd think sooner or later, Trudeau's going to have to cut Gerald Butts loose



> We’ve got a similar problem happening here in Canada up on Parliament Hill. To get the gist of it, you only need to see one of the many memes circulating online of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau perched like a dummy on the lap of a messy haired, bespectacled man.
> 
> The man is Gerald Butts, Trudeau’s principal secretary. While his title may sound like he’s the chief coffee boy, make no mistake — he’s the head honcho. A former senior advisor to Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, he’s referred to as PM Butts by many Liberal caucus members.


Related, too:

Turns out Justin Trudeau is more like Pierre than we feared



> During the 15 years that Pierre Trudeau was prime minister, federal spending rose from 30 to 53 per cent of GDP. Huge public spending overheated the economy, resulting in runaway inflation. By 1981, Canada’s prime lending rate had reached an incredible 22 per cent. The inability to meet skyrocketing interest payments caused widespread corporate and personal bankruptcies.
> 
> Justin Trudeau won’t admit that, like his dad, his ideology is one of tax-and-spend, anti-business and anti-Alberta-oil
> 
> Accessing risk capital was virtually impossible when government bonds were yielding 19 per cent. By the time he retired in 1984, national debt had grown by 700 per cent and Canada’s international debt rating had collapsed. Canada was transformed from one of the financially strongest countries in the world into an economic basket case. It would be two decades before tough fiscal discipline was able to overcome compounding interest payments and begin to reduce the country’s real-dollar debt.
> 
> Five decades later, son Justin has Canada on a similar path. *After inheriting the Stephen Harper government’s zero-deficit balance sheet a little over two years ago, Trudeau’s budgeted 2017–18 deficit has rocketed to $18 billion, with continuing deficits forecast to add $117 billion to the national debt by 2023. That’s reason enough to worry, but the picture is certain to get much worse. Why? For the same reason that Pierre Trudeau’s deficits spiralled out of control: the imposition of ideologically socialist government policies on a capitalist free-market economy.*


Yeah, my bold.

Juthdin! Juthdin! Juthdin!!!


----------



## SINC

Looks like Justin is driving the bus right over the cliff. People had had enough and sock boy is now toast.

*Liberal approval rating drops to 44% as women, middle class look to Tories: Ipsos poll*



> Discontent with the Trudeau Liberals has grown to such a level that if a federal election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would romp to a comfortable win.
> 
> That’s according to a new Ipsos poll that found the Liberals to be hemorrhaging support even among their target demographics, namely the middle class, women and millennials, with many progressives increasingly weighing up a vote for the NDP.
> 
> Overall, 56 per cent of the 1,003 Canadians surveyed for the poll said the Liberals have fallen short of expectations, with 60 per cent saying it’s time for them to make way for another federal party.
> 
> *Only five per cent said the Trudeau government exceeded their expectations.*


More on Global News:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4104673/trudeau-liberals-approval-rating-down/


----------



## Rps

FeXL, I think getting rid of Butts would be wise for Canadians but unwise for JT......he’d have to come up with an original thought and at my age I don’t think I have that much time left.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, I think getting rid of Butts would be wise for Canadians but unwise for JT......he’d have to come up with an original thought and at my age I don’t think I have that much time left.


<snort>

Oh, I believe he has already. A number of times. These are just a few examples of him off-leash...


----------



## FeXL

Awww... Juthdin's bethdy needs two more weeks with the shrink.

Assessment of former Afghanistan hostage Joshua Boyle to take two more weeks



> Another two weeks are needed to complete a psychiatric assessment of former Afghanistan hostage Joshua Boyle, who faces several assault charges.
> 
> Boyle dialled in via telephone to a brief court hearing today, and his next appearance is slated for April 9 via video conference.
> 
> Lawrence Greenspon, a lawyer for Boyle, told the court in late January that an initial evaluation found his client fit to stand trial, but added that he would benefit from a fuller assessment at a mental health centre in Brockville, Ont.
> 
> Boyle was arrested by Ottawa police in December and charged with various offences including assault, sexual assault, unlawful confinement and causing someone to take a noxious substance.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada Knee-Deep in Open Borders Consequences



> Canada is knee-deep in a refugee quagmire and has publicly blamed President Trump for their poor decision-making.
> 
> Last January, in the wake of newly elected Trump’s persistent drum beat and chorus of “build the wall,” world leaders took to the airwaves condemning the big meany and his heartless treatment of potential immigrant and refugees seeking asylum. Not to be outdone in global public relations coverage, our civilized and pleasant neighbors to the north admonished the new world leader’s policies and offered their country as a safe space.
> 
> Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, even personally tweeted:
> 
> _“To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada”_​
> O, Canada! What have you done?


More:



> The financial and workload woes are just the beginning of Canada’s self-induced nightmare. Now they are faced with allowing potential terrorists into their little slice of peaceful paradise. One such undesirable already slipped through the cracks soon after Trudeau’s welcome to Canada tweet:
> 
> _“Abdulahi Hasan Sharif, 30, has been charged with five counts of attempted murder, four counts of criminal flight causing bodily harm, and one count each of dangerous driving and possession of a weapon for a dangerous purpose, RCMP announced at a news conference at Edmonton police headquarters on Monday.”_​
> Canada, attempting to stay popular, refused to label the crimes as terrorist attacks. Being politically correct will not deter terrorism, but *our neighbors may have to learn this lesson in the most difficult way, as we did.*


My bold.

Won't happen w/ Butts' hand puppet at the reins...


----------



## CubaMark

Would it be too much to ask for y'all to stop with the usual "discussion" and offer your opinion on the article linked below? I've followed the issue for a few years now, and find it inexplicable that there hasn't been a wider pickup on the issue (I'm sure I brought up the earlier lawsuit here in ehMac, but as usual the internal search engine is as useless as a brassiere on a male cow)

*The Bank of Canada Should Be Reinstated To Its Original Mandated Purposes*

*(No excerpts - it should be read in full)*


----------



## Macfury

If the government borrows money at 2% interest, it merely taxes somebody to pay the interest. If the government borrows money at 0% interest by having the Bank of Canada create money to lend, then it devalues the money everybody else owns by the same amount. The idea of a "free loan" is an illusion.

The court isn't going to have much effect on this. The question is, what is the best policy? If the current policy is best, then the Bank of Canada rules will be rewritten to support that policy.





CubaMark said:


> Would it be too much to ask for y'all to stop with the usual "discussion" and offer your opinion on the article linked below? I've followed the issue for a few years now, and find it inexplicable that there hasn't been a wider pickup on the issue (I'm sure I brought up the earlier lawsuit here in ehMac, but as usual the internal search engine is as useless as a brassiere on a male cow)
> 
> *The Bank of Canada Should Be Reinstated To Its Original Mandated Purposes*
> 
> *(No excerpts - it should be read in full)*


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> *The Bank of Canada Should Be Reinstated To Its Original Mandated Purposes*





> In any case, this issue should become a major plank in the NDP platform.


I agree. The NDP platform should be more explicit and include a free money plank.

Not sure why some groups stick with their frequently conspiracy-laden arguments for free money. Just advocate for printing money to cover spending, and stop with the hand waving.

Also, I'm not sure the interest claims in the article are true. There were significant net public debt costs before 1974, and costs as a share of GDP are now at or lower than in the mid 60s.

As an aside, in the mid 70s, the federal government started spending more than it took in before including interest payments. The over-spending lead the ramp up in interest costs.

https://www.fin.gc.ca/frt-trf/2017/frt-trf-1701-eng.asp#tbl2


----------



## Macfury

The article appears to equate "free money" with unprecedented growth and prosperity, as if the institutional lending rate would have prevented the St. Lawrence Seaway from being built or would have caused the Allies to lose against the Axis in World War II. The article essentially demonizes Canada Savings Bonds.

I never saw the Bank of Canada as a tool for the party in power to crank up the printing presses to help the party in power to win an election. That's why an independent BoC is important. Venezuela has a lot of free money available because the government is in full charge. Not quite free: you can pick up a wheelbarrow full of the stuff in exchange for a pack of cigarettes.



Beej said:


> I agree. The NDP platform should be more explicit and include a free money plank.
> 
> Not sure why some groups stick with their frequently conspiracy-laden arguments for free money. Just advocate for printing money to cover spending, and stop with the hand waving.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure the interest claims in the article are true. There were significant net public debt costs before 1974, and costs as a share of GDP are now at or lower than in the mid 60s.
> 
> As an aside, in the mid 70s, the federal government started spending more than it took in before including interest payments. The over-spending lead the ramp up in interest costs.
> 
> https://www.fin.gc.ca/frt-trf/2017/frt-trf-1701-eng.asp#tbl2


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> The article appears to equate "free money" with unprecedented growth and prosperity, as if the institutional lending rate would have prevented the St. Lawrence Seaway from being built or would have caused the Allies to lose against the Axis in World War II. The article essentially demonizes Canada Savings Bonds.
> 
> I never saw the Bank of Canada as a tool for the party in power to crank up the printing presses to help the party in power to win an election. That's why an independent BoC is important. Venezuela has a lot of free money available because the government is in full charge. Not quite free: you can pick up a wheelbarrow full of the stuff in exchange for a pack of cigarettes.


Very true. But I do recall in the 80s that mortgage rates peaked near 21%. I had one coming due ( which was at %12 1/4 when signed ) and was fearing loosing my home....then the election was announced and it dropped to %12 by the time I resigned months later....curious no?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> If the government borrows money at 2% interest, it merely taxes somebody to pay the interest. If the government borrows money at 0% interest by having the Bank of Canada create money to lend, then it devalues the money everybody else owns by the same amount. The idea of a "free loan" is an illusion.
> 
> The court isn't going to have much effect on this. The question is, what is the best policy? If the current policy is best, then the Bank of Canada rules will be rewritten to support that policy.


CM, I have to agree with MacFury here. There’s no such thing as a free lunch.


----------



## FeXL

Sure.

However, first off, let's start with your post.
1) A male cow is colloquially known as a "bull", unless
2) You had prairie oysters last night, in which case he would now be known as a "steer" or
3) You happen to be sensitive about arbitrarily assigning sex to anything, in which case he would be known as "bovinekind".

Awright, on to the article.
1) Ain't no such thing as free loans. Somebody, some where, is paying for the interest not recouped in the administration of said loan. As a taxpayer, you will find said "somebody" in the mirror.
2) Why am I not surprised that, even after the bastard is dead & buried, Trudeau Pere is still causing this country grief?
3) Why are the NDP seen as the "great saviours" here? Federally they will never be seen as anything more than a fringe party, even if they somehow manage to wrangle enough protest votes to become official opposition.
4) How much of that $1.4 trillion federal debt has been imposed upon us by Liberal gov'ts?
5) Canada's MSM (aka MotherCorpse) hasn't covered it because it looks bad to the political left.





CubaMark said:


> Would it be too much to ask for y'all to stop with the usual "discussion" and offer your opinion on the article linked below? I've followed the issue for a few years now, and find it inexplicable that there hasn't been a wider pickup on the issue (I'm sure I brought up the earlier lawsuit here in ehMac, but as usual the internal search engine is as useless as a brassiere on a male cow)


----------



## CubaMark

(Mostly) interesting feedback (you know who you are....).

I wonder what kind of opinions would have come had I not linked to this article via Canadian Dimension in which the author discusses the NDP and its lack of response to the issue. 

The group of economists who began this court challenge many years ago - COMER (Committee on Montetary and Economic Reform) presents its case in greater detail, which perhaps addresses some of the concerns raised. There's also a short Wikipedia article to note.

I'm a little surprised at the position most of you are taking... I would have thought national sovereignty would be of import, rather than surrendering Canada's economic capabilities to an international banking cabal.


----------



## FeXL

You're welcome.



CubaMark said:


> (Mostly) interesting feedback (you know who you are....).


Save the deletion of my point 3, wouldn't have changed anything for me. I'm not an ideologue. Unlike many people on these boards I don't hate something automatically because of a particular political association.



CubaMark said:


> I wonder what kind of opinions would have come had I not linked to this article via Canadian Dimension in which the author discusses the NDP and its lack of response to the issue.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> (Mostly) interesting feedback (you know who you are....).
> 
> I wonder what kind of opinions would have come had I not linked to this article via Canadian Dimension in which the author discusses the NDP and its lack of response to the issue.


Utterly no difference. And I don't see the Bank of Canada as part of an international "cabal" or its function as a relinquishing of sovereignty.


----------



## eMacMan

However one feels about the issue, it is obvious that the junior idiot Trudeau will legalize cannabis. 

I wonder if leaving it this late in his term is a good or bad idea. On the one hand the 30% of the population who strongly support the move will still have it fresh in their heads. As will the 30% who strongly oppose, all though they will have it second hand in their heads. Will it change the outcome of the next election? Not too likely.

However should the Conmen take back power from the Lieberals, expect a big effort to undo the change. Whether or not that effort goes up in smoke is anybodies guess.

Whatever your views you should leave the naivety off your Power Point Presentations and Talking Points. Case in Point:
No reason legalized pot should prompt tighter screening at U.S. border: Goodale | Calgary Herald



> OTTAWA — Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale says there’s no reason why legalizing marijuana in Canada should create headaches for Canadians when they try to cross the border into the United States.
> ...


Uh Ralph at the risk of pointing out the obvious, this is the Untied States of Paranoia to which you refer. Have you paid any attention to what is happening soused of the border recently. Believe me Ralph, Team Sexual Assault will be using this as an excuse for more invasive "security" screening and the Homeland Insecurity types will become even more obnoxious as they welcome Canadians into the US.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> The group of economists who began this court challenge many years ago - COMER (Committee on Montetary and Economic Reform) presents its case in greater detail, which perhaps addresses some of the concerns raised.


I checked the website and didn't see a group of economists. Could you send me the relevant link?

Sidenote: the website does not add to the credibility of the claims. I recommend sticking with the article.



> I would have thought national sovereignty would be of import, rather than surrendering Canada's economic capabilities to an international banking cabal.


I'm not sure where you got this from. Maybe you're taking the article's rhetoric as true and meaningful?

Either way, what criticisms, if any, do have regarding the arguments and policy ideas in the article?


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Uh Ralph at the risk of pointing out the obvious, this is the Untied States of Paranoia to which you refer.


I wait patiently for the day when Regina-Wascana rejects this idiot...


----------



## FeXL

I jes' luvs it when the Prog's hypocrisy is thrown into sharp relief...

B.C.-Alberta pipeline war imbued with environmental hypocrisy



> Last week, in the latest skirmish in the British Columbia-Alberta pipeline wars, B.C. Premier John Horgan (pictured above) responded to an Alberta threat to turn-off the oil taps to B.C. (thus hiking gas prices in his province) by saying he wants Ottawa to “deal with” the situation and “take some leadership” in keeping gas prices down.
> 
> What’s wrong with Premier Horgan’s suggestion that by some means, the federal government should control gasoline prices? *Just about everything.*


Bold mine.

Hey, Johnny, you do know the price of gas will drop if you take the carbon tax off, right?


----------



## SINC

Isn't that his solution for everything now?


----------



## FeXL

*Bacauth ith's 2015!*

SUBVERTING PARLIAMENT: Trudeau Liberals Caught Trying To Create $7 BILLION ‘Slush Fund’ To Escape House Of Commons Oversight



> The Trudeau Liberals have been caught trying to establish a $7 BILLION ‘slush fund,’ that would subvert the Parliamentary budget process.
> 
> As explained by Conservative Finance Critic Pierre Poilievre and Conservative MP Kelly McCauley, the fund would let the Liberals have a $7 billion stash of taxpayer dollars that they could spend without any accountability between now and the next federal election, without having to explain where that money would be spent until after the 2019 campaign.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Liberals set to reform jury selection process following Colten Boushie case



> The federal government has introduced legislation aimed at overhauling the criminal justice system, a measure that makes good on a Liberal promise to change the way juries are selected.
> 
> A number of visibly Indigenous people were excluded from the jury that last month acquitted Saskatchewan farmer Gerald Stanley, 56, in the shooting death of Colten Boushie, 22, a member of the Red Pheasant First Nation.
> 
> Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould tabled a massive bill Thursday that, if passed, would eliminate the use of peremptory challenges, which allow lawyers to reject jury candidates during the selection process.
> 
> *Speaking through a family friend, Boushie’s mother, Debbie Baptiste, said she is pleased about the proposed changes and hopes the presence of Indigenous jurors will translate into more justice for Indigenous Peoples in Canada.*


Bold mine.

It's pretty clear to me, Debbie. Don't break the law & you won't have to worry about "inadequate" justice...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau Chickens Out When Asked About His Carbon Tax Plan



> Justin Trudeau, who likes to pose as an environmental expert, has an interesting method of dealing with questions about the carbon tax he champions and exactly what gains it has given Canadians regarding greenhouse gas emissions: he refuses to answer the question, as do members of his government.
> 
> Recently that dismissive posture was displayed when Catherine McKenna, Minister of Environment and Climate Change, refused to answer a question from Robert Sopuck of the Conservative Party. Sopuck asked, “I have a very specific question regarding the $50 carbon tax: How much will Canada’s emissions — and I want a number here — how much will Canada’s emissons be reduced under a $50 a ton carbon tax?”
> 
> McKenna completely evaded the question, saying, “As I said, it’s important to understand that putting a price on pollution is part of our broader climate plan. *We believe in numbers, so we spend a lot of time modeling; we also worked closely with provinces and territories. …*”


Bold mine.

I believe in numbers, too, Climate Barbie. Where the hell are yours? 

And, models? Seriously??? :yikes: Are your "models" as tweaked as TIPCC's? It's no wonder you don't have a straight number to present.

(hands over their ears) NANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANANA!!!!!

More:



> Roughly a week later, Trudeau also evaded the question, as he was asked if he could tell the House of Commons exactly how much his $50 per ton carbon tax would reduce greenhouse emissions. Trudeau resorted to platitudes and never answered the question.


Gueth Butth's hadn't given them the scripted responth-th-th, yet...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Liberals set to reform jury selection process following Colten Boushie case
> 
> 
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> It's pretty clear to me, Debbie. Don't break the law & you won't have to worry about "inadequate" justice...


Pre-emptive challenges are crucial to a fair trial. They allow either side to eliminate jurors that are clearly biased one way or the other. More importantly laws should never be changed simply because of the outcome of a single trial, no matter how volatile it may have been.

Limit it to half a dozen non-cause challenges per side, or simply let defense and prosecution wrangle over each selection till they can find people both sides accept. It's pretty simple. 

As to the Stanley trial, local reporters made it clear that many of the indigenous members of the pool came across as blatantly anti-Stanley, hence their overall exclusion.


----------



## eMacMan

I am pretty sure Visas are not yet required for travel by auto, but nothing to stop the Border types from asking for the same info. At this point I would happily turn around rather than provide them with that info.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-visa-applicants-asked-social-media-history-state-112620388.html



> The proposal, if approved by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), would require most immigrant and non-immigrant visa applicants to list all social media identities they have used in the past five years.
> 
> The information will be used to vet and identify them, according to the proposals, which would affect about 14.7 million people annually.
> 
> The proposals support President Donald Trump's promise to institute "extreme vetting" of foreigners entering the United states to prevent terrorism.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

92% of families face tax hike of over $2,200 beginning in 2019



> According to a new report by the Fraser Institute, more than 92.2% of Canadian families will pay higher taxes once the Canada Pension Plan tax increases are fully implemented by 2025.
> 
> The first of seven increases to CPP tax, which all working individuals must pay, begins in 2019.
> 
> The study’s co-author, Charles Lammam, broke down the tax fairly well:
> 
> “Canadian families will endure a significant tax increase and that tax bill will increase over time. The Trudeau government has talked a lot about cutting taxes for families. Based on the personal income tax changes they’ve already put in the case, we’ve found that’s not true for the vast majority of middle-class families.”


Gueth he'th gotta raise cath for more terrorist cheques...


----------



## FeXL

Fine. I got no time for stupid politicians, either, Climate Barbie...

McKenna has 'no time' for climate change deniers 



> Federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna says she has "no time" for political adversaries who don’t believe climate change is real.
> 
> During an interview with CTV Question Period host Evan Solomon, McKenna smacked down critics of the Liberals' climate change plan and price on carbon.
> 
> "I have no time for folks who are like, you know, 'We shouldn’t take action,'" she said. "I don’t have time for politicians that play cynical games about climate action."
> 
> Asked whether she viewed having time for people as part of her role as a federally elected official, she said: "I have time for Canadians who disagree with me, and I have conversations with them all the time…. But I don't have time for politicians that pretend that climate change isn’t real."


----------



## FeXL

Rural crime concerns get the attention of MPs



> Rural crime.
> 
> It’s a term that some call nothing more than racist code, but for Nick Cornea, it is a reality that people in Canada’s cities and towns simply don’t understand.
> 
> Cornea, a 28 year-old husband and father of three, farms near Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan and is now at the forefront of a debate that has moved from the farm field to Parliament Hill. This week the Conservatives announced that they want the House of Commons Public Safety Committee to study trends in rural crime.
> 
> “I don’t know anyone that farms around here that hasn’t had to deal with this,” Cornea said during a telephone interview from his farm.
> 
> After growing frustrated with a lack of understanding about an issue he says is real and growing, Cornea started the Facebook Group, Farmers Against Rural Crime. It has grown from a few people he knew to more than 15,000 members in a matter of weeks.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Father Raymond J. de Souza: Canada's churches aren't interested in Trudeau's 30 pieces of silver



> The story of Judas — or the incapacity to understand it — fits so well the federal government’s obstinacy on the Canada Summer Job Program, an obstinacy that appears to be prompting Canadians to rethink whether their government is truly a champion of fundamental liberties.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canadians are sick and tired of nasty liberal identity politics



> Canada is not a racist country, and most Canadians are not racist people. It’s strange that this even needs to be said, but given the rise of divisive identity politics and ugly race-baiting in the news these days, it’s worth stating and restating.
> 
> That’s not to say that racism doesn’t exist. It does – in every society around the world and throughout history. There is, however, an important difference between individual cases of racism – which we should join together to condemn – and so-called institutional or systemic racism.
> 
> Left-wing activists insist that Canada is a horrible and racist society – so racist, in fact, that our laws and institutions are embedded with racial biases and bigotry. But these activists can’t point to instances of supposed “white privilege” racism in the law, so they rely on rhetoric and anecdotal evidence.
> 
> *If people from one ethnic or religious background commit more crimes and go to jail, the Left blames systemic racism. They exonerate the individual for his or her actions, and blame society.*


Yeah, my bold.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin Trudeau unwisely plays media like April fools



> When a prime minister goes into Easter hoping to resurrect himself from a flogging in the polls, it is never wise to use the media as props.
> 
> Yet this is what Justin Trudeau did last week at a high-end fundraiser in Montreal filled with city and provincial elites.


More:



> “We are the only political party opening our fundraisers to be media,” he said. “We’ve encouraged the Conservatives and the NDP to do the same, but apparently their commitment to transparency is easier when they are talking about it rather than doing it.”
> 
> That takes some kind of moxy.
> 
> What Trudeau didn’t tell the crowd, however, was that the media had been herded into a small back room upon their arrival by Trudeau’s handlers and kept out of sight until he took the stage.
> 
> According to a Canadian Press report, they were also banned from speaking to anyone at the event — no interviews, therefore, no quotes or context — and then they were ushered out of the ballroom like sheep when Trudeau was finished speaking.
> 
> This is the Liberals’ definition of freedom of the press?


Why, yes. Yes, it is. You ungrateful bastards should be thankful you were even invited in the first place...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, let's talk Juthdin some...

Liberals further burden pipeline approvals with progressive add-ons



> In testimony before the House of Commons environment committee on Wednesday, Chris Bloomer, president of the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, said: “It is difficult to imagine that a new major pipeline could be built” under the Trudeau government’s new impact assessment bill now working through Parliament.
> 
> If the bill only required more stringent environmental reviews, industry could probably live with that. Oil and gas companies have grown accustomed to spending hundreds of millions completing all the tests and contingency plans required to win environmental approval for new projects.
> 
> What makes the Liberals’ new law so much more likely to slam the door shut on investment are *all the social-engineering add-ons that have nothing — nothing — to do with the environment or business, such as gender-based assessments.*


Bold mine.

Trudeau is Increasingly Taking a Dictatorial Tone



> I just stumbled on an interesting article by Spencer Fernando that discussed the growing centralization that Justin Trudeau’s government is proposing and the dangers that it may contain.
> 
> In his article, Spencer argues that “a smaller and more decentralized federal government would be less of a target for power-hungry would be dictators” and that “our democracy would also be stronger, as people would feel less demoralized than under the current situation where a powerful and often-distant federal government makes decisions without ever hearing from those affected by those decisions.”
> 
> An interesting proposition, and one that I’d like to discuss more in-depth.
> 
> First of all, I understand where Spencer is coming from when he mentions Justin Trudeau’s tone.
> 
> *The Prime Minister has become increasingly tense, and dictatorial in recent months, and on the issue of gun control, for example, he has shown that he is willing to verbally attack a Member of Parliament in his own party in order to maintain the facade that rural voters are not angry as a result of the Liberals newly produced gun control legislation.*


Also mine.

Liberals are down in the polls, maybe the problem is Trudeau’s vision



> Of course, the most usual criticism about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is that he is more style than substance and too focused on image.
> 
> But perhaps the reason for the Liberals’ drop in the polls goes deeper. Perhaps we thought Trudeau had no substance but, after a couple of years of getting to know him, we’ve seen he does — and we don’t like it.
> 
> A most alarming poll for the Liberals came from Ipsos last week which showed the Conservatives leading and the NDP gaining at Liberal expense. The poll put the Conservatives at 38% (unchanged), the Liberals on 31% (down two) and the NDP at 23% (up two). If an election was held today under the first-past-the-post system Trudeau promised he’d eliminate, Andrew Scheer might win a majority government.
> 
> And it wasn’t just the top-line numbers. The percentage of people saying Canada is on the right track fell eight points. Disappointment in the Trudeau Liberals increased two points to 56%. Now 60% say a new government is needed. Those are bad numbers.


Related:


----------



## FeXL

I include the linking article simply for the observation at the bottom.

NDP to table House of Commons motion calling for Pope to apologize for residential schools



> While you’re at it table one that calls on socialists and communists to apologize for the 100 million or so killed under communism.


Nails it...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> I include the linking article simply for the observation at the bottom.
> 
> NDP to table House of Commons motion calling for Pope to apologize for residential schools
> 
> Nails it...


Do these clowns not realize they are so far outside not only their jurisdiction and authority, but even their moral position to make such a stupid demand? That turban might be on too tight?


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk Climate Barbie s'more...

Catherine McKenna has no time for you



> “I have no time for folks who are you know, ‘We shouldn’t take action,'” McKenna said.
> 
> “What to do you mean have no time? You have to have time,” Solomon shot back. “Your job is to have time for folks that care about this issue and want to understand it.”
> 
> “I don’t have time for politicians that play cynical games with climate action,” McKenna responded.
> 
> That response is a bit rich considering the cynical games played recently by McKenna and her boss, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, on the impact of their carbon taxes. McKenna was asked at committee, and Trudeau in the House, to explain to fellow MPs what carbon emissions would be reduced under the government’s $50 a tonne carbon tax.
> 
> *Neither one would give any details, Trudeau going so far as to blame Stephen Harper.*


Yep. That scary Stephen Harper.

BOOOOO!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Related:

Looks like Canada is gearing up for a carbon tax showdown



> Catherine McKenna is getting a little testy. And you can certainly see why.
> 
> The incoming national carbon tax that she’s been promoting alongside Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is really taking a beating. So much so that the majority of Canadians might be asking for its repeal come the next election.
> 
> McKenna, the environment and climate change minister, appeared on the Sunday talk show CTV Question Period to discuss issues pertinent to her file with host Evan Solomon.
> 
> An increasing number of mainstream political leaders are speaking defiantly against carbon taxes and are poised to bring millions of Canadian voters along with them for the ride.


More:



> Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe is against it. Alberta United Conservative Leader Jason Kenney is against it. Ontario PC Leader Doug Ford is against it. *These three leaders (one a current premier, the other two poised to win upcoming elections) represent more than half the population.*


All bold mine.

Related, too.

Liberal climate crusaders exposed



> The Trudeau government’s approach to addressing climate change — a combination of arrogance, ignorance and wishful thinking — has been on full display in Ottawa in recent days.
> 
> On Sunday, on CTV’s Question Period, Environment Minister Catherine McKenna repeatedly dodged basic questions from host Evan Solomon on how Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will reach his absurdly unrealistic 2030 greenhouse gas emission reduction target.
> 
> Instead, she veered off into a partisan rant about, how, because she has “three kids” and we need to “save the planet,” she has “no time” for Canadians, including federal and provincial politicians, who oppose Trudeau’s carbon pricing scheme.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Investor Cash Leaving Canada For U.S. 'In Real Time,' RBC Warns



> The head of one of Canada's largest banks is urging the federal government to stem the flow of investment capital from this country to the United States — because, he warns, it's already leaving in "real time."
> 
> RBC president and CEO Dave McKay discussed some of his biggest concerns about Canadian competitiveness, particularly those related to recent U.S. tax reforms, during a recent interview.
> 
> Ottawa has come under pressure from corporate Canada to respond to a U.S. tax overhaul that's expected to lure business investments south of the border.
> 
> McKay told The Canadian Press that a "significant" investment exodus to the U.S. is already underway, *especially in the energy* and clean-technology sectors.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Here comes the blacklist...

Second Liberal MP denounces Summer Jobs abortion-rights clause, says it misrepresents the Charter



> In a letter to an employer in his Ontario riding, a Liberal MP says his own government is wrongly invoking the Charter of Rights and Freedoms on its controversial Canada Summer Jobs attestation, and calls the whole thing “regrettable” and a “lamentable state of affairs.”
> 
> The newly added clause requires applicants for the grant program to declare their core mandate respects “the values underlying the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms,” and goes on to specifically mention reproductive rights, which means access to abortions.
> 
> “In my riding of Scarborough-Guildwood, I am personally aware of a number of organizations negatively impacted,” says the letter from John McKay, who is known to be pro-life.
> 
> “I consider this to be a lamentable state of affairs, and have expressed my views both inside and outside caucus in the strongest possible terms.”


----------



## eMacMan

A worthwhile if somewhat lengthy read.
Coyne: Trudeau Liberals trod same cynical path as those before them | Calgary Herald
Backs up my contention that they are all evil SOBs.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Backs up my contention that they are all evil SOBs.


Anybody who voted for The Spawn believing he would be different than any other leader over the course of the last 40 years was an outright idiot.


----------



## FeXL

Couple more on Climate Barbie.

The same old Liberal arrogance sure is coming back in a hurry



> Governments grow understandably tired of critics who spend their days finding new things to complain about, *but the Trudeau Liberals are unusually forthright in displaying their contempt for anyone who holds views they reject.*


M'bold.

I'm sorry. Wasn't I accused of this very thing on these boards a mere couple days back? Yes, I'm sure I was. Some Prog called me a "bigot". Does this not then make the Trudeau Liberals in general & Climate Barbie in particular, bigots?

Surprise, surprise, surprise...

More:



> Like so many zealots, McKenna tries to portray all doubters as blithering idiots who are either too stupid to understand the issue or too callous to care. It’s a haughty and cavalier approach, the sort of imperious pomposity that so annoys non-Liberals.


Ah, the arrogance. I jes' luvs it when a Prog puts it on display in full view...

Related (further to Climate Barbie's trip to Cowtown):

Chamber of Horrors – Minister McKenna Comes to Calgary



> Imagine you attend a Chamber of Commerce luncheon about economic opportunity, only to have two out-of-towners peddle their climate change carbon price wares by dancing on your distress.
> 
> Yes, that was the Chamber of Horrors in Calgary March 9, 2017.
> 
> Calgarians are friendly and polite, so no one said anything out loud.


Like I noted before: I wish to hell I'd have known about this. There would have been some pretty damn pointed observations made from a single seat in the audience...

More:



> Honestly. Alberta, and Calgary have one of the highest per capita ratios of Professional Geoscientists and Professional Engineers, perhaps in the world but certainly in Canada. People who have studied 4 billion years of earth’s changes can tell the Minister a thing or two about how climate change is real and that it changes – a lot – without any human influence. And the Professional Engineers can explain how a 0.02°C change (two one-hundredths) in temperature over 2015 is not a sign of anything because it falls within a 1 degree margin of error – so, could have been warmer…or cooler. In fact, an averaged temperature from so many ‘adjusted’ sources is simply a metric – not an actual temperature measurement anymore.
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> The horror continued – worst of all was the Minister’s own statement that *she knew nothing about the ‘climate file’ before beetling off to Paris to negotiate it*. Perhaps it was her blithe, happy-go-lucky, ‘so what’ tone that struck me as illustrating how completely *oblivious* she is to what her agreement will do to this country, if we try to follow through.


Links' bold, my bold italics.

She's _still_ oblivious...


----------



## FeXL

Good. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of pipeline blockers. I hope it goes to $2.50/l.

B.C. carbon tax helps push gas prices to record highs



> Gas prices in the Vancouver area are now at record highs and could rise even further, to $1.60 a litre by the end of the week. That’s not just going to affect drivers, critics say; it’s going to hurt the entire local economy.
> 
> The first of four annual increases to the province’s carbon tax kicked in on Sunday, adding 1.2 cents to the cost of a litre of gas. By Monday morning, prices had risen to $1.56 per litre -- more than a quarter higher than in Montreal and Toronto, where gas prices are hovering around $1.30. It’s also significantly higher than the $1.19 drivers are paying in Calgary.
> 
> And prices are expected to rise in B.C. even further.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Un-_fukcing_-believable...

Feds to spend $280k to study why Canada’s oil and gas sector is falling behind



> The federal government plans to spend up to $280,000 for a new study on Canada’s competitiveness in the oil and gas industry as investment lags and the United States offers new incentives for companies to move south.
> 
> An advance contract award notice, prepared by Natural Resources Canada and made public on Wednesday morning, puts the call out for an outside supplier to do the work, with international consulting firm Wood Mackenzie identified as the preferred candidate.


I can do that for under 5 bucks. Buy a mirror. Park it on Zoolander's desk. Send me the check for the difference...

h/t SDA, who notes this:



> After over a decade of blogging on news and current events, not much makes me angry.
> 
> This makes me angry.


Yeppers...

Comments very relevant.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk carbon tax s'more.

First, starting off with a faulty premise:

POLL: Only 13% agree with Trudeau on pricing carbon



> Ever since he became prime minister, Justin Trudeau has been pushing Canadians to accept the idea that we need to have a price on carbon dioxide emissions. Yet despite years of lecturing, and little media or opposition push back, Canadians aren’t sold.
> 
> According to Abacus Data, just 13% of Canadians would choose a price on carbon as their preferred method to deal with climate change.
> 
> Poll participants were given four options for dealing with climate change and were asked to rank them as their first, second, third and fourth choices. The options were, rules and regulations, low carbon tech subsidies, carbon pricing or do nothing.
> 
> Carbon pricing only finished ahead of do nothing.


Second, Climate Barbie playing Wynne's game & buying voter's support with their own money:

Carbon tax revenue could go straight to Ontario residents, McKenna says



> Ottawa could give revenues from a federally imposed carbon tax directly back to Ontario residents instead of the provincial government if whoever is elected in the spring election rejects a carbon-pricing system, the federal environment minister said Wednesday.
> 
> Catherine McKenna, who was in Toronto announcing funding for a green home-retrofit program, issued the warning in response to a question about Progressive Conservative Leader Doug Ford’s plans to scrap Ontario’s cap-and-trade system and reject a carbon tax.
> 
> “Let’s be clear. Pollution isn’t free,” Ms. McKenna said. “If the federal government has to step in, the revenues will go back to the province but we will determine how they go back and we could give them back to people and businesses so they would not go to the government.”


Would somebody please tell this bimbetta that neither carbon, nor CO2, is pollution?

And, third, now they want to tax your meat.

Carbon-tax killjoys want to tax our hamburgers now. Is anyone really surprised?



> If lately it seems to you that everything that makes life a pleasure is a target for getting slapped with a carbon tax … well, you’d be right. The next serving of happiness to suffer could be those juicy grilled beef patties sizzling on your barbecue this summer. Tofu burgers, anyone?
> 
> Demands to tax meat — and in particular beef — to fight climate change is a topic of great interest these days. In the past few months, writers at The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Guardian, The South China Morning Post and a host of other media outlets have all been pushing the need to make your next cheeseburger or T-bone steak far more expensive for the sake of the environment.


Go for it. Make ground beef $30/lb and prime rib $100/lb. I dare ya. And, when all the Progs have rolled over & are now eating bugs & greens, me and my several hunnert personal friends who raise cattle will be in the next yard over, BBQ'ing the hell out of fresh, farm raised beef.

Idiots...


----------



## eMacMan

Very sad story out of Saskatchewan. Interesting that this has not yet made to the Canadian sources I check in the AM. 

My sympathy to the players and their families.

https://www.seattlepi.com/sports/ar...say-14-killed-after-bus-carrying-12814252.php



> NIPAWIN, Saskatchewan (AP) — Canadian police said early Saturday 14 people were killed and 14 people were injured after a truck collided with a bus carrying a junior hockey team to a playoff game in Western Canada.
> 
> Police say there were 28 people, including the driver, on board the bus of the Humboldt Broncos team when the crash occurred around 5 p.m. Friday on Highway 35 in Saskatchewan.
> ...
> "I cannot imagine what these parents are going through, and my heart goes out to everyone affected by this terrible tragedy, in the Humboldt community and beyond," Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau tweeted.


Sorry Justin but tweeting is not the appropriate medium for commenting on this sort of tragedy! While we are being completely inappropriate, I do wonder if the PM will propose banning busing of minor hockey players, or if he will propose an outright ban on semis?


----------



## SINC

Not sure why this is in this thread, it sure has nothing to do with Canadian politics. My life long friend who was the owner of the Nipawin Journal before our company purchased it in 1991 has been keeping me posted on this tragedy. He is involved with the Nipawin Hawks team and knows all of the first responders at the scene. I will not share what I know as of yet, but perhaps this deserves its very own thread?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Very sad story out of Saskatchewan. Interesting that this has not yet made to the Canadian sources I check in the AM.
> 
> My sympathy to the players and their families.
> 
> https://www.seattlepi.com/sports/ar...say-14-killed-after-bus-carrying-12814252.php
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Justin but tweeting is not the appropriate medium for commenting on this sort of tragedy! While we are being completely inappropriate, I do wonder if the PM will propose banning busing of minor hockey players, or if he will propose an outright ban on semis?




A sad day for the families in Humboldt. The inappropriate comments cheapen the message unfortunately.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

<snort>

Whaddya gonna do, Juthdin? Put on a pair of anti-Russia socks? Ensure any trade deals include social justice posturing? Hold yer bref until you turn blue?

Trudeau warns that Russia will face consequences for further ‘illegimate and illegal’ actions



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is warning Russia that it will face “real consequences” for its aggression on the world stage and here in Canada, where he said social media and propaganda have been used to meddle in democracy, including a smear campaign aimed at Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland.
> 
> Flanked by Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary general of NATO, Trudeau said that Russia's “illegimate and illegal” actions — from its 2014 invasion of Crimea to the more recent poisoning on British soil — cannot go unchallenged.
> 
> “There need to be clear consequences from the international community on Russia’s continual desire to upset or cause trouble in the international order, international peace, stability and governance,” Trudeau said.


----------



## Macfury

That British poisoning has already proved to be false flag. Hilarious that Russian social media trolls are have suddenly become their bugbear.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> A sad day for the families in Humboldt. The inappropriate comments cheapen the message unfortunately.


True, but your response would indicate that my implied criticism of the tasteless utilization of tragedies such as the Las Vegas massacre to promote gun seizure, went way over your head.

As you say it does cheapen the message! Oops that was probably a shade too subtle for you as well.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

I post this not because I sympathize with the union but merely as further confirmation of the fact that The Hairdo & his cadre of idiots don't have a clew...

Customs & Immigration Union Leader “Begging” For More Resources At Border, But Hussen Offers ‘Messaging’ Instead



> For a long time now we have seen that the Trudeau government doesn’t take Canada’s borders seriously.
> 
> Now, the head of Canada’s Customs and Immigration Union Jean-Pierre Fortin is saying the same thing.
> 
> As reported by CBC, Fortin is ‘pleading for more resources at the border’ as the influx of illegal border crossers is expected to increase.
> 
> *Already, over 500 people illegally crossed the Canadian border at Roxham Road in Quebec over the Easter weekend, and it looks like that’s just the beginning*...


Links' bold.

Related:

Canada Headed For Another Massive Increase in Illegal Border Crossings

If only Trudeau's immigration strategy was about what's best for Canada

Trudeau tweet caused influx of refugee inquiries, confusion within government, emails reveal

We Need to Talk About Canada: Multiculturalism Isn't Working


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Don't have time to deal with these individually.

Lifestyles of the rich and famous!



> Spending on wining and dining in the U.S. has *doubled* under Trudeau, as Liberal MPs are living the lifestyles of the rich and the famous – *on your dime!*


Canada's back, when it's convenient



> The world now knows what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau meant when he said: “Canada is back.” We’re not the helpful middle-power willing to punch above our weight, after all. We’re more like the spoiled teen who engages in voluntourism to pad her résumé. It seems we’re more out to impress people than take on the thankless tasks required of an adult.


With carbon pricing up against the ropes, Catherine McKenna needs to learn humility



> Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister is the latest political leader to come out swinging against federal carbon pricing.
> 
> “I have a simple message for Ottawa today – back off or we’ll see you in court,” the Progressive Conservative leader said on Friday after calling reporters to his office.


A little knowledge of what she speaks wouldn't hurt, either...

Liberals further burden pipeline approvals with progressive add-ons



> In testimony before the House of Commons environment committee on Wednesday, Chris Bloomer, president of the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, said: “It is difficult to imagine that a new major pipeline could be built” under the Trudeau government’s new impact assessment bill now working through Parliament.


Trans Mountain pipeline on hold as pressure mounts on B.C. to drop opposition



> The future of the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion was cast in doubt on Sunday as Kinder Morgan Canada suspended all non-essential activities and related spending on the project in the face of mounting opposition from British Columbia.


Lawyers stumped over new gender and identity provisions for environmental impact assessments



> Over the years, federal environmental assessments have measured everything from the number of endangered lynx near a proposed New Brunswick mine to the presence of dragonflies and butterflies at a British Columbia hydro site.
> 
> But under new federal legislation tabled in February, the scope of impact assessments is being broadened well beyond fauna, requiring project proponents to take into account “the intersection of sex and gender with other identity factors.”


LIAR: Trudeau Caught Spreading Falsehood About Conservative Pipeline Record, Tries Blaming Harper Again



> Trudeau once again refuses to take responsibility for anything, as he tries to blame pipeline struggles on the Harper government.


Liberal Arrogance Reaches Tipping Point



> With more than a year left before the next election, it seems that the Trudeau government’s special brand of arrogance and elitism is reaching a tipping point with most Canadian voters, as they realize their own government does not want to listen to them.


What ails our oil and gas sector? Trudeau's own policies



> The Trudeau government is spending $280,000 to study why Canada’s oil and gas sector is falling behind. Folks online were quick to propose a better way to answer this question: someone hand Justin Trudeau a mirror! *(Who are we kidding, it’s Justin Trudeau, he probably owns thousands of mirrors)*.


M'bold.

HA! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Trudeau, the so-called feminist PM, is losing the female vote



> Unlike our prime minister, I’ve always figured women are generally a bit smarter than us men.
> 
> Certainly, when it comes to the actual doing of dumb things in life, the focus group containing all men usually wins hands down.
> 
> Not being in the habit of patronizing people, I’ve never felt the need to do so with half the population, unlike Justin Trudeau and his endless, cringe-worthy blather about how he’s a feminist prime minister and how the word “mankind” should suffer the same sad oblivion as our Canadian NHL teams.


No shortage of hot air from Liberals on climate plans



> "Outside of Justin Trudeau, no one better represents the patently Liberal mix of rhetoric and vacuity than Catherine McKenna. "


No argument.

Rex Murphy: A mirror could show Trudeau why Alberta is suffering. No research required



> Fortunately, there are some rare people who have the courage to pursue the very darkest, most enigmatic questions, regardless of the cost to mental peace or even sanity itself. Such is our PM, Justin Trudeau, the very Galahad of fearless inquiry.
> 
> Near midweek, the announcement came that his government would fund, by nearly $300,000, research into the deepest and most unsettling riddle of our entire national life: Why is our Canadian oil and gas sector falling behind? The fate of the Franklin expedition, which troubled us for so long, was just a Cracker Jack puzzle compared to this conundrum.


Trudeau says ‘We’re all getting what we want’ on pipelines. He means nobody’s happy.



> With the Liberals sliding in the polls, Trudeau’s middling stance on pipelines isn’t helping


‘He’s a liar’: Why the Left Coast may be writing off Justin Trudeau



> I am in the downtown Vancouver boardroom of the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs and the gentle voice is saying some very tough things.
> 
> “My wife and I were scheduled to march in the Chinese New Year’s parade in Vancouver, until we found out that Trudeau was going to be there,” he says. “No way was I going to meet him unless I was on one side of the barrier, and he was on the other.”


Women are good at spotting a flake, and Trudeau fits the bill



> If only tacky socks were the worst of his sins. But they’re not, and those sins have been piling up recently at an alarming rate. They include his sheer obtuseness when it comes to the concept of due process. He unceremoniously turned his own cabinet minister, Kent Hehr, into an instant pariah simply because a woman made unproven allegations that Hehr had said something actually quite innocuous to her in an Edmonton elevator more than 10 years ago.


----------



## macintosh doctor

this pretty much sums up our leader.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, let's talk Juthdin & his cadre of idiots s'more.

Failure to push through Trans Mountain could be the end for Trudeau



> Kinder Morgan, the proponent of the expansion to a pipeline carrying Alberta bitumen from the oilsands to an export terminal near Vancouver, said Sunday it is suspending activity on the pipeline until May 31.


Kinder Morgan throws down gauntlet



> Both B.C. and Ottawa are about to learn, and very publicly, what happens when governments don’t recognize the importance of supporting corporate investment.
> 
> _Justin doesn’t care. He doesn’t want the pipeline built because it’s 2018 or something. *His handler’s have done the math, pretending to support the pipeline while simultaneously throwing up regulatory roadblocks will ultimately result in the least loss of overall electoral support and still fulfill the the LPC agenda of crippling the oil industry.*_


Bold mine. Nails it.

Justin Trudeau’s failure of leadership costs Canadians pipelines and billions



> He can no longer blame Stephen Harper and the Conservatives, he can no longer claim that he is the man that will get pipelines built.
> 
> The announcement by Kinder Morgan that it is suspending all “non-essential spending” on the Trans Mountain pipeline project is the direct result of Justin Trudeau failing to show leadership to get the project completed. As recently as Friday, Trudeau was promising workers in Fort McMurray, Alberta that the pipeline would be built.


Trans Mountain cries for help but Alberta's bailout won't save it



> The implication is that “unquantifiable risk” is something the shareholders of a publicly traded company will not tolerate. *The response of the premier of Alberta, whose revenues depend on the ability to export oil in as many directions as possible, was to suggest that the province might seek an equity stake in the pipeline. Jason Kenney, the leader of Alberta’s United Conservative opposition, quickly endorsed this idea* — while continuing to castigate the Alberta and federal governments for failing to invoke whatever magic would have gotten the pipe laid down in B.C. over the objections of its government and some of its coast-dwelling citizens.


M'bold.

Ain't interested in a gov't based equity stake in _any_ private business. Period.

Related to the pipeline:

British Columbia sinking in its own pipeline hypocrisy



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau put on a good show last week, facing anti-pipeline protesters in Vancouver who loathed his message that the Trans Mountain pipeline extension would be built, and then headed to the oilsands town of Fort McMurray to punctuate his alleged commitment to the project.
> 
> But it is more than obvious now that he went to British Columbia and Alberta without a clue as to what Kinder Morgan was about to do Sunday.
> 
> He was either played for a fool by Kinder Morgan or made to look like one.


Made to _look_ like one?! He _is_ one!

Feds set aside $1.6 billion for outside help with military challenges



> The federal government is asking universities, companies and others to help the military with several pressing challenges, including how to better treat PTSD, increase female recruitment, monitor Canada's waterways and defend against cyberattacks.
> 
> The request was made by Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan on Monday and comes with some hefty financial incentives: $313 million for various projects over the next five years and a total $1.6 billion over the next 20 years.


Hell, that's easy: Get rid of the Liberals...

Trudeau not ready to deal with growing illegal immigration problem



> If you were to ask most Canadians about illegal immigration into this country, they wouldn’t have a clue. And if they did know anything about it, they would likely think it was something that happened last year with people fleeing Donald Trump.
> 
> Truth is, the problem of illegal immigration continues, and is actually getting worse, even if most of the country isn’t paying attention.
> 
> In the first two months of this year 3,082 people crossed into Canada illegally, almost all of them, 2,944, came through Quebec.
> 
> Over the Easter weekend there were nearly 600 people that crossed into Canada at one spot, Roxham Road. The now infamous spot isn’t a legal border crossing. In fact the roads leading up to the border, on both sides, are dead ends.
> 
> Yet so many people have crossed over from New York State into Quebec that the RCMP now has permanent infrastructure there. The last federal budget added $173 million to process these claims quicker under the guise of “securing the border.”


----------



## Beej

To save Kinder Morgan project, Notley would buy it
Braid: To save Kinder Morgan project, Notley would buy it | Calgary Herald

Not my preferred end state, but it is good to see a process of increasing pressure, and that shutting off current flows to B.C. is on the table. Truck and train freight passing through Alberta is another option. Stop it all, with select exemptions for maximum impact and alliances.

If B.C. wants a de facto veto over a federal decision then surely other provinces can learn from them. All that freight movement looks a bit dirty and dangerous, after all.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Not my preferred end state, but it is good to see a process of increasing pressure, and that shutting off current flows to B.C. is on the table.
> 
> Truck and train freight passing through Alberta is another option. Stop it all, with select exemptions for maximum impact and alliances.


Nope. Don't want my tax dollars being spent on private business that the gov't deems worthy. Red Rachel's mandate is not is not picking winners & losers from the private sector.

There are many ways to apply pressure, some of which you've noted. Frankly, I don't think Rachel's got the stones. All this is is political theatre for the election. 

On a personal basis, we've decided to avoid spending our tourist dollars in BC this year. Stateside, here we come!


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

My tax dollars at work.

Canadians like parks, feds learn after spending $150K on survey 



> Parks Canada spent over $150,000 on a phone survey to determine whether or not Canadians enjoyed their experience at national parks in 2017.
> 
> It turns out, they did, a lot.
> 
> Of the 3,090 people surveyed, 94 per cent reported they had a good time while visiting a national park, historic site, or waterway during Canada’s 150th year.
> 
> "Enjoyment from the visit was almost universal," the survey report said.


Related:


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oooooooo, an _Emergency Meeting_! Saaaaaaaalute!

Trudeau Calls Emergency Cabinet Meeting As Radical Environmentalists Threaten Pipeline



> Alberta United Conservative Party Leader Jason Kenney had some back-handed praise for Tuesday’s meeting in a tweet:
> 
> _Good that the Trudeau Liberals are holding an ’emergency’ Cabinet meeting on Trans Mountain today – 70 days after the BC NDP ramped up its attacks on the approved project. https://t.co/87nNxCGrjc #ableg #UCP #cdnpoli #CPC
> 
> — Jason Kenney (@jkenney) April 10, 2018_​
> Trudeau talked with B.C. Premier John Horgan and reiterated that ultimate decision on whether the pipeline proceeds or not is one that the federal government will make.


Nails it.

And, it shouldn't be a federal decision. Ain't federal territory...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Rex Murphy: Trudeau still gives green fanatics cover as they strangle Trans Mountain



> Up till Sunday, the Trudeau government’s preferred role was to sit mute and complacent as an indifferent spectator to the concerted attacks on the Canadian energy industry, while vaingloriously proclaiming its “global leadership” on the global-warming file.
> 
> The latter is the real “industry” this government backs, and backs with full-heated and endless proclamations on every stage of the world it’s offered. *I’d argue this government has more than enabled the conditions that have led to the present crisis by its inaction, its over-the-top global-warming frenzies, and its near desperate desire to play the hero at Paris and Davos at the expense of Calgary and Fort McMurray.*
> 
> It’s a crisis. Actually, it is a bundle of crises, mutually intertwined — dangerously intense interprovincial conflict, the precipitation of a fracture in Confederation, *and a return to the rancour and hostility between East and West not seen since the bitter tensions brought on by the National Energy program. The memory of those days has been vividly revived.*


Bold mine.

As always, Rex nails it.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Ya gotta love a basic dictatorship...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

(h/t SDA for the idea)

China wants no 'progressive' elements in any free trade deal with Canada: envoy



> China's ambassador has firmly rejected a key pillar of the Trudeau government's trade agenda, branding its attempts to entrench labour standards in a free trade pact as a non-starter for his country.
> 
> *Ambassador Lu Shaye said Tuesday that Canada's "so-called" progressive trade agenda has no place in the free trade agreement the two countries have been pursuing in fits and starts for several years.*
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been unable to persuade China's leaders to formally entrench labour, gender, environment and governance issues in the negotiating framework of the free trade talks.


Yeah, bold mine.

In other words, get stuffed, Sockboy...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Why am I not surprised?

Order Of Canada Recipient & Trudeau Pal Peter Dalglish Arrested On Pedophilia Charges In Nepal



> Former UN-Habitat country representative for Afghanistan, Peter John Dalglish, has been arrested from Kavrepalanchowk district for his alleged involvement in pedophilia...


Juthdin can sure pick 'em...


----------



## Macfury

Hey, but this guy has UN ties--isn't that worth some credit?



FeXL said:


> Why am I not surprised?
> 
> Order Of Canada Recipient & Trudeau Pal Peter Dalglish Arrested On Pedophilia Charges In Nepal
> 
> 
> 
> Juthdin can sure pick 'em...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hey, but this guy has UN ties--isn't that worth some credit?


In some circles.

In mine that merely makes him an even bigger idiot.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Doesn't take a rocket surgeon...

Trudeau has options for strong action on Kinder Morgan, but will he use them?



> But one final complication is the way Trudeau and his cabinet have painted themselves into a corner.
> 
> By not acting forcefully in favour of Energy East, the feds set a precedent that makes it difficult politically for them to act forcefully in favour of Trans Mountain. In fact, because Energy East was unpopular in Quebec (and the Trudeau government wants desperately to be loved in Quebec), it did all it could to kill Energy East.
> 
> So now, while it should be defending its own constitutional power over a national project, Ottawa is worried that pushing through Trans Mountain will not only cost the Liberals votes in B.C., it might also resurrect Energy East in Quebec.
> 
> And with an election coming in a year-and-a-half (and nothing for the Liberals to gain in Alberta), that’s not going to happen.


----------



## FeXL

If anybody cares.

(article MotherCorpse link free)

Catherine Tait named first female CBC President and CEO — 'inclusive' storytelling promised



> Catherine Tait, a 30-year veteran of the Canadian and U.S. television and film industry, has been tapped to lead a digital revolution at CBC/Radio-Canada, becoming the first woman in the organization’s history to be named president and chief executive.


----------



## Macfury

Nobody is watching their "inclusive" storytelling. From the people who brought you the mega-hit comedy, Kim's Convenience.


----------



## SINC

B.C. is trying to divide our nation. Here’s how Trudeau can stop it | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

JT's advisors are probably holding him back from joining the protests against the project.



SINC said:


> B.C. is trying to divide our nation. Here's how Trudeau can stop it | Financial Post


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> JT's advisors are probably holding him back from joining the protests against the project.


Wonder if that's why he requested a personal day in the midst of all this...


----------



## SINC

Looks like the noose around Trudeau's neck is getting tighter:

*Major Business Groups Warn Confidence in Canada at Risk*



> VANCOUVER - A growing movement of more than 70 business, industry and community groups, representing hundreds of thousands of British Columbians and Canadians, have come together over the last two days to sign a joint letter calling on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Premiers John Horgan and Rachel Notley to resolve the impasse on the Trans Mountain Pipeline project.
> 
> Should the impasse not be resolved, the group asks the federal government to utilize all appropriate federal powers at their disposal, including expanding, if required, the Ocean Protection Plan to ensure the Trans Mountain pipeline project proceeds without further delay.
> 
> Several of the organizations have also launched Confidence in Canada – Protecting our country's reputation as a safe & secure place to invest and do business., a website where everyday Canadians can email key political decision-makers to show their support for the project and our country’s reputation as a place to invest and create jobs.
> 
> Earlier this week, Kinder Morgan announced a suspension of all non-essential spending on the federally and provincially approved project, citing “unquantifiable risk” as a result of the continuing uncertainty created by the B.C. government.
> 
> At stake is more than a single pipeline project, the group noted. The continued obstructionist position of the current Government of British Columbia calls into question whether an agreement can be reached where the rule of law will prevail and commercial enterprise can, with confidence, build and operate a business in our country. The global reputation of our country as a safe and secure place to invest and do business is at serious risk.
> Leaders of several of the organizations represented at today’s event provided comments:
> 
> "The B.C. government's continued position on the pipeline and lack of federal resolve has turned this situation into a referendum on whether British Columbia is open to investment. It raises the question of whether any legal enterprise – large or small - can with any confidence invest, build and operate a business within the province and the country. We immediately need leadership in our Canadian federation to resolve this matter and reinstate our confidence in Canada for the benefit of all Canadians and our future prosperity " - Greg D’Avignon, President and CEO, Business Council of British Columbia
> 
> "Canada’s energy sector is on its knees. Companies investing billions of dollars in our economy are vilified at nearly every turn. As a result, Canada’s energy sector is being hollowed out – Canada is losing investment, jobs and talent. Hundreds of communities, thousands of companies and the quarter-million men and women working in construction in BC will be hurt by this flagrant disregard for the rule of law – we must build this pipeline and support the jobs and opportunities that come with it." - Chris Gardner, President, Independent Contractors and Businesses Association
> 
> “Enough is enough. It’s time to reinforce investor confidence in Canada. Ensuring the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion project gets completed will send the right signal. If we don’t send that signal quickly we risk eroding – perhaps irreparably – our provincial and national brand as a place worth investing in.” – Val Litwin, President and CEO, BC Chamber of Commerce
> 
> “This is about more than a pipeline. This is about our national economy, the cohesiveness of our country, and the ability for us to think — and act — in the best interest of all Canadians. That’s why we are calling on the B.C. Government to ‘stand down’ on its tactics to further delay this project, and calling on the Canadian Government to ‘stand up,’ to assert that this project is in the national interest, and put a halt to the uncertainty that threatens to undermine our federation. The rest of the world is watching.” - Iain Black, President and CEO, Greater Vancouver Board of Trade
> 
> “Whether a business is big or small, it’s important to have confidence that governments at all levels will respect the laws of this country. Creating mayhem and mischief with respect to a project that has been approved is clearly at odds with this and puts our economic security at risk. It can’t be allowed to stand.” - Laura Jones, Executive Vice-President and Chief Strategic Officer of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business
> 
> “Prime Minister Trudeau has been a strong supporter of his government’s decision on Trans Mountain but now needs to exercise the authority Canadians gave him and uphold its approval. The project is in the best interest of all Canadians but B.C. Premier John Horgan is holding the country hostage and overstepping his jurisdiction. It’s time Ottawa exert its authority to end the B.C. government’s attempts to foil the project.” - Tim McMillan, President and CEO, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
> 
> “To attract the investment required for mining projects, investors require certainty. Mining is a capital intensive industry, where it can take multiple years to move a project from development to operation. A lack of investor confidence in the federal and provincial regulatory processes creates detrimental uncertainty for our industry and our ability to sustain the jobs of today and, importantly, create the opportunities of tomorrow. Regulatory predictability, consistency and coordination is absolutely paramount to the future of the BC mining industry.” – Bryan Cox, President and CEO, Mining Association of BC
> 
> “The project is now at a critical juncture where immediate concrete actions and leadership from the federal government is needed to ensure absolute certainty that the Trans Mountain expansion will be built. Federal and provincial leaders must resolve the current impasse and signal to the world that Canada remains open for business.” - Chris Bloomer, President and CEO, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association
> 
> "The Government of BC has taken strong steps towards an evidenced-based decision making model with the approval of Site C, an LNG tax regime and commitment for an energy roadmap. We encourage the BC Government to continue their advocacy for the rule of law in resource development projects and actively support Kinder Morgan's Trans Mountain Expansion." - Rob Fraser, Mayor, District of Taylor, Co-Chair, Northeast B.C. Resource Municipalities Coalition
> 
> “It’s essential for the stability and health of our businesses and communities that BC is trusted by investors - project commitments must hold. Whether you’re a tradesperson signing with a supplier or a government saying “yes” to a major project, this is a fundamental tenet of business. While no one disputes that environmental safety is a paramount concern, the way forward is not to second guess. The way forward is to work together to ensure positive outcomes.” - Chris Atchison, President, British Columbia Construction Association.


----------



## 18m2

Seems to me BC is doing fine before this pending economic forecast of doom. The whole thing is stupid when you consider the indigenous community can kill the project and that has yet to be ruled in the courts.


----------



## SINC

Do it.

*Top Kinder Morgan Canada investor urges Trans Mountain shutdown*

https://www.bnn.ca/top-kinder-morga...56175#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=8gzDKZb


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> JT's advisors are probably holding him back from joining the protests against the project.


This made laugh out loud.


----------



## SINC

Horgan is an idiot who should never have been given the right to govern.

After meeting with Trudeau, Notley says Trans Mountain ‘will be built’ but Horgan says he’ll still block expansion | National Post


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Horgan is an idiot who should never have been given the right to govern.
> 
> After meeting with Trudeau, Notley says Trans Mountain ‘will be built’ but Horgan says he’ll still block expansion | National Post


Sinc, not sure about that...what I haven’t seen are the opinion numbers on what B.C. As a population thinks about the pipeline. I get a regional issue will cause friction against a province or country...if all of B.C. is against the pipeline it will be harder to judge Horgan...but if it is to stay in power due to 3 Green members then he needs to stop being a one trick pony.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Sinc, not sure about that...what I haven’t seen are the opinion numbers on what B.C. As a population thinks about the pipeline. I get a regional issue will cause friction against a province or country...if all of B.C. is against the pipeline it will be harder to judge Horgan...but if it is to stay in power due to 3 Green members then he needs to stop being a one trick pony.


The polls--some of them very badly written--show about a 50/50 split on the issue in BC.


----------



## Rps

Okay, so this will go a couple of ways. 
1. Supreme Court using sec. 92. But this is time consuming and Kinder Morgan will walk away. Also you never know about the SCOC, which I think is why JT isn’t rushing that way.

2. Feds act as a broker and get private money to back the risk.

3. Fed and Alberta finance the risk...Notley has indicated she would be willing....don’t know where she thinks the money will come from.

4. I think JT will do this....force Alberta and BC into a civil war then White Knight it....buying off BC somehow. This will make him a peace maker and return his “good guy” image..... like Notley don’t know where he’ll get the money from.


----------



## Rps

And while we’re on the subject of protecting the environment in B.C. Mr. Horgan.....
The B.C. Ministry of Environment has quietly granted the Mount Polley Mining Corporation permission to drain mining waste directly into Quesnel Lake, B.C.’s deepest fjord lake and a source of drinking water for residents of Likely, B.C., as part of a “long-term water management plan.”


----------



## 18m2

I saw on gCaptain Saudi Supertanker Fully Laden with American Oil Arrives Off China – gCaptain where the US loaded a Saudi Supertanker in the Gulf of Mexico and lifted a 40-year ban on most crude oil exports. They appear to have a glut of oil and Asia is the big buyer.

Now, what does that do for Canada's prospect to sell Bitumen to Asia which is not as clean and is more expensive to refine? What will be the price of that bitumen and will the selling price be enough for the Canadian producers?

I don't know the answer.

If KM is questioning the viability of putting money down to building the pipeline where do Notley and Trudeau expect to find investors who will put the money up?

Again, I don't know the answer.


----------



## Beej

18m2 said:


> Now, what does that do for Canada's prospect to sell Bitumen to Asia which is not as clean and is more expensive to refine? What will be the price of that bitumen and will the selling price be enough for the Canadian producers?
> 
> I don't know the answer.
> 
> If KM is questioning the viability of putting money down to building the pipeline where do Notley and Trudeau expect to find investors who will put the money up?
> 
> Again, I don't know the answer.


The price will be better than shipping the oil by train to the Gulf of Mexico region to compete against the same U.S. oil, and KM had a problem putting more money down on a project that may be further delayed in courts for years and ultimately blocked by one of three levels of government who all seem to claim a form of right to veto.


----------



## Rps

This from Bloomberg.....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...no-alberta-has-some-oil-shipping-alternatives


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> This from Bloomberg.....


Interesting. Thx for the link.


----------



## SINC

One of the best evaluations I have read on Trudeau and the pipeline. No balls indeed.

Justin Trudeau fails to act, fails to be prime minister


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> One of the best evaluations I have read on Trudeau and the pipeline. No balls indeed.
> 
> Justin Trudeau fails to act, fails to be prime minister


I read the link. Doesn't seem to say much about much.


----------



## 18m2

An interesting opinion that calls into question the financial viability of Rachel and Trudeau's plan to export Bitumen. With the oil industry in an ever changing state of change and improvement, Alberta has been left behind. If Rachel doesn't invest in some kind of upgrade they can never be price competitive.



> That will likely prove fatal to Alberta’s plans to expand unrefined bitumen exports either by the proposed Trans Mountain pipeline to the British Columbia coast, or the proposed Keystone XL pipeline because:
> 
> • Potential foreign refiners and customers will demand that future oil price, quality, shipping costs, and delivery speeds match those that LOOP can offer.
> 
> • For marine safety reasons, the maximum oil tanker cargo allowed through B.C.’s Burrard Inlet is an Aframax class ship at 80% capacity carrying 550,000 barrels, only about one-quarter the load of a VLCC. That means a refiner in Asia would need to book and pay for four tankers to ship the same amount as from the LOOP terminal, then wait longer for the full order to arrive.
> 
> • The diluted bitumen Alberta wants to export has chemical and combustion properties that make it far inferior to the higher-quality oil LOOP has access to from U.S. formations in the Dakotas and Texas, or OPEC countries, or North Sea producers. Tar sands/oil sands bitumen can be upgraded and refined, but that adds significant costs and requires dedicated facilities.
> 
> • The terminus of the Keystone XL will be refineries on the Texas Gulf Coast near Houston which are not connected to the LOOP. Even if future Alberta bitumen were to be refined there, it would take three fully-loaded Aframax tankers leaving Texas for ship-to-ship transfers to each VLCC.
> 
> These important changes in tanker and terminal technology and scale are no secret in the oil industry outside Canada. Nor is the dirty chemical composition of tar sands/oil sands bitumen. Nor is the cutthroat competition among global oil producers, refiners, shippers, and speculators, in which nickels per barrel of oil delivered are fought over fiercely.


EXCLUSIVE: Out of the LOOP: The Fatal Flaw of Alberta's Oil Export Expansion | The Energy Mix


----------



## Beej

18m2 said:


> If Rachel doesn't invest in some kind of upgrade they can never be price competitive.


Not true, but then the issue is moot. Let Kinder Morgan build, the pipeline will be empty (or, at least, no bitumen), then laugh at them. Not that this is where the article is trying to push people. beejacon


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> Not true, but then the issue is moot. Let Kinder Morgan build, the pipeline will be empty (or, at least, no bitumen), then laugh at them. Not that this is where the article is trying to push people. beejacon


Agreed. Let Kinder Morgan invest billions in building the pipeline. If these folks don't think it's financially viable then they should have no trouble with private money financing its construction--no oil, no danger.


----------



## SINC

You just can't get any more stupid than this.

*Harming Canada isn’t ‘in the best interests of British Columbians,’ Mr. Horgan*



> British Columbia Premier John Horgan continues to defend his opposition to the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion on the grounds that it is his job “to do what’s in the best interests of British Columbians.” But whose interests are really being served by continuing to create mayhem and uncertainty around a project that has federal approval?
> 
> Premier Horgan talks about “gaps” with respect to the federal government’s Ocean Protection Plan. If that really is a concern he should spell out what those gaps are so they can be addressed by what looks like a willing federal partner. Or is there another agenda here? One that’s not about protecting B.C.’s coast but rather about stopping this project at all costs? This would not, by any stretch of the imagination, be in B.C.’s best environmental, economic, or Canadian interests as a member of Confederation.


Harming Canada isnâ€™t â€˜in the best interests of British Columbians,â€™ Mr. Horgan | Financial Post


----------



## SINC

And yes, this too.

*Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state*

U.S. forecaster Peter Zeihan, a former geopolitical analyst with the security firm Stratfor, has spent his career trying to predict the future of tumultuous states — recently, he’s turned his gaze to North America. Now, his latest book, The Accidental Superpower, takes a bleak look at the direction of the world in general. Among his speculations, the future of Alberta in Canada. He spoke to the Post‘s Jen Gerson.

Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state | National Post


----------



## Rps

Sinc, I think the only province which could actually leave is British Columbia. There are geographically and politically ripe to do so.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> And yes, this too.
> 
> *Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state*
> 
> U.S. forecaster Peter Zeihan, a former geopolitical analyst with the security firm Stratfor, has spent his career trying to predict the future of tumultuous states — recently, he’s turned his gaze to North America. Now, his latest book, The Accidental Superpower, takes a bleak look at the direction of the world in general. Among his speculations, the future of Alberta in Canada. He spoke to the Post‘s Jen Gerson.
> 
> Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state | National Post


I gave up my US citizenship for several good reasons and certainly would not welcome having to deal with the nightmarish intricacies of Medicare at this point in my life. Let's also point out the instant 25% devaluation in my retirement savings. I would go so far as to suggest I would move from Alberta if this were to happen.

It would make sense for BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba to secede and form a single nation, but only if BC were more willing to provide export possibilities for AB bitumen. Which of course would remove much of the reason for secession.

I would also support a north south split. With DC and Ottawa in the same country and everyone west of the Mississippi in a different nation. Let's face it Alberta and Montana, or Manitoba and Minnesota have for more in common with each other than any of them have with their nations capitol.


----------



## Rps

eMacMan said:


> I gave up my US citizenship for several good reasons and certainly would not welcome having to deal with the nightmarish intricacies of Medicare at this point in my life. Let's also point out the instant 25% devaluation in my retirement savings. I would go so far as to suggest I would move from Alberta if this were to happen.
> 
> It would make sense for BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba to secede and form a single nation, but only if BC were more willing to provide export possibilities for AB bitumen. Which of course would remove much of the reason for secession.
> 
> I would also support a north south split. With DC and Ottawa in the same country and everyone west of the Mississippi in a different nation. Let's face it Alberta and Montana, or Manitoba and Minnesota have for more in common with each other than any of them have with their nations capitol.


Years ago W.A.C. Bennett proposed that Canada be split into 5 economic units. What he was really after was the Yukon, but here was his thought.

B.C. and the Yukon
Alberta, Sask, Manitoba
Ontario and Quebec
Maritimes
NWT.

Be believed that this made sense as the economies should dictate the alignment.
He might have been right...


----------



## Macfury

Ontario and Quebec? Nice try! Also, if we simply eliminated inter-provincial trade barriers such economic units would evolve naturally.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Ontario and Quebec? Nice try! Also, if we simply eliminated inter-provincial trade barriers such economic units would evolve naturally.


Maybe, but Bennett’s thought was that we could not sustain 10 Provinces...I mean he really wanted the Yukon, but in light of this....at the time of his assertion Ontario and Quebec were manufacturing powerhouses and their economies were more aligned than I think they are today.

Not saying that I agree with him ( but I wouldn’t have a problem with it other than voter base ).


----------



## 18m2

Rps said:


> Years ago W.A.C. Bennett proposed that Canada be split into 5 economic units.


I don't recall Wacky Bennett proposing that but there was a nine nation proposal based on economic and cultural alignments. Interesting that Alberta and large parts of the West was part of a region called the Empty Quarter. It's definitely an outdated plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

We're famous! Or rather, Juthdin is notorious. He made Day By Day!

I Put a Spell on You


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Galt Pipelines, Inc

Three links inside, thee salient quotes:



> _So Kinder Morgan is holding a conference call: it says the events of the last 10 days confirmed its view that the Trans Mountain investment may be untenable_​





> _“So they didn’t like the Trudeau-Notley plan to nationalize their property?”_​





> Trudeau embarrasses Alberta in France and says he wants to kill Canada’s energy sector


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada cuts Bible camp’s funding after it refused to support abortion



> An Alberta summer Bible camp may have to cut staff this year after it lost out on Canada Summer Job grants for refusing to sign the Liberal government’s pro-abortion attestation when applying for funds.
> 
> “It just feels tough that the reason that we got … not approved is because of our beliefs,” said Jon Gartly, executive director of the Southern Alberta Bible Camp told the CBC. “That’s a tough one to swallow.”
> 
> It’s a situation critics warned of after the Liberals this year required employers applying for Canada Summer Job grants sign an attestation that their “core mandate” respects abortion and LGBTQ “rights.”


While our children have never attended the facility for bible camp, they have for a yearly band camp. It's quite a nice facility.

It would be a shame to miss out on this because of some dough-headed federal politician transgressing the Charter of Rights & Freedoms...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Galt Pipelines, Inc
> 
> Three links inside, thee salient quotes:


To be fair, Trudeau did not tell France he wanted to kill the energy industry.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> To be fair, Trudeau did not tell France he wanted to kill the energy industry.


My French is pretty rusty so I ran the article through one of those online translators (_not_ Gaggle). This is the translated page. And, yes, I understand the limitations of online translation.

From whence comes this quote:



> To reach the targets of the agreement of Paris, Alberta, where are our main oil resources, put an absolute border on greenhouse gas emissions. Because we could show that they would support the new oil pipeline which must attain new markets towards the Asia. *The Canadians and people across the world know that it is not possible to make a choice any more between what is good for environment and what is for token for economy.*


M'bold. Now, while he may not have outright said "kill the energy industry", the implication is quite clear. And, if you have been watching him kill off pipelines these past months through a war of attrition, including dragging his feet on KM, it's also quite evident.


----------



## FeXL

Granting Sikh bikers ‘right’ to ride without helmets only adds to religious freedom confusion



> Just in time for Sikh Heritage Month, Alberta recently became the third province to allow Sikhs the dubious privilege of riding motorcycles without helmets. In a government press release, Transportation Minister Brian Mason nodded to “civil rights and religious expression,” while Canada’s first turban-wearing Mountie, Baltej Singh Dhillon, appreciated the government “respecting diversity and religious rights.”


Just to be clear...I'm for pro-choice for helmets for everyone 18 years & older.

What I can't figger out is why Sikhs can be granted special privilege based on religious grounds yet anyone not agreeing with the Fed's funding extortion re: abortion and gay/trans rights is SOL.


----------



## SINC

Time for Horgan to get real.

More British Columbians now support the Trans Mountain pipeline project: poll | CBC News


----------



## FeXL

Related:

What do First Nations really think about Trans Mountain?



> sk Greenpeace, and they’ll tell you First Nations are eco-warriors bravely protecting the ocean from rapacious pipeline-crazed plutocrats. Ask the Fraser Institute, and they’ll say First Nations are enthusiastic, hard-hatted oilmen who are tired of the “environmentalist propaganda” saying otherwise.
> 
> The reality is somewhat more complex. The 1,147-km Trans Mountain pipeline expansion would affect more than 100 First Nations, each with their own unique economy, motivations and feelings about bitumen.
> 
> Below, some context for the current state of affairs between oil pipelines and Western Canada’s various First Peoples.


Interesting read. Fairly balanced.


----------



## SINC

More on the utter failure of carbon taxes.

B.C. tricked Canadian politicians into believing its carbon tax policy works. It doesn’t | Financial Post


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> More on the utter failure of carbon taxes.


With all respect due the _FP_, very little of that article is news to anyone paying attention.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Another day ending in "Y"...

Halifax police investigating alleged sexual assault involving Liberal MP



> Halifax Regional Police (HRP) are investigating an alleged sexual assault that reportedly involved an Ontario Liberal MP in Halifax attending the National Liberal Convention.
> 
> The office of Liberal MP Francis Drouin, 34, who represents the riding of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, confirmed to Global News that he is the subject of an allegation, though he did not say what the allegation was.


Related:

Trudeau, Hehr attend Liberal sexual harassment training session



> Justin Trudeau and Kent Hehr — a former minister who resigned from the prime minister’s cabinet over allegations of inappropriate conduct with women — were among the Liberals who attended a sexual harassment training session Saturday.
> 
> The hour-long session, which was closed to the media, marked the first time the ruling party has broached the issue of harassment at one of its national conventions.


A whole _hour_! Alrighty, then...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Lying sacks of $h!t...

Liberal deficits $8B more than expected over next 2 years: PBO



> The Trudeau government is on track to run deficits nearly $8 billion deeper than expected over the next two years, the federal budget watchdog said Monday in a new report.
> 
> The parliamentary budget officer estimated the Liberals will post a $22.1-billion shortfall this fiscal year, which would be $4 billion more than the projection of $18.1 billion in the federal government’s February budget.
> 
> For 2019-20, Jean-Denis Frechette’s team predicted a $21.4-billion deficit, $3.9 billion higher than the government’s forecast of $17.5 billion.


Related:

PBO says carbon tax will knock $10 billion off GDP by 2022



> That’s the latest from the PBO’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook for 2018, which was released Monday morning. The report warns that the levy will “generate a headwind” for the economy as the price on carbon is boosted from $10 per tonne of CO2 in 2018 to $50 per tonne in 2022.


I read headlines like that & all it does is confirm that this is not about the reduction of CO2 & entirely about another f'ing tax to fill Federal coffers.


----------



## FeXL

Just one more reason...

Prenatal cannabis use associated with low birth weights



> With marijuana use during pregnancy on the rise, a new study led by the Colorado School of Public Health shows that prenatal cannabis use was associated with a 50 percent increased likelihood of low birth weight, setting the stage for serious future health problems including infection and time spent in Neonatal Intensive Care Units.


----------



## FeXL

The iron...

Vanadium for batteries can be extracted from Canada’s oilsands and potentially double world production



> Vanadium is a largely obscure metal often used in making steel. It retains its hardness at high temperatures, so it’s ideal for making drill bits, engine turbines and other parts that generate heat.
> 
> In the oilsands, Vanadium is one of the metals that comes out of the ground with bitumen. The concentration is quite low: a barrel of bitumen would contain just 30 milliliters of vanadium, on average, experts says. But multiplied by the millions of barrels of production from the oilsands every day would be about 33,000 liters of vanadium. Vanadium has a density of 3.36 grams per cc. So a million barrels of oil would be about 100,000 kilograms (100 tons). One year of production would be about 36500 tonnes.
> 
> Canada’s oilsand produced 2.4 million barrels per day in 2016.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Trudeau, Hehr attend Liberal sexual harassment training session
> 
> A whole _hour_! Alrighty, then...


That would be 60 minutes more training on the subject than Trump has ever had.

:yikes:


----------



## FeXL

And about 10 years short of what yer average Prog politician needs...



CubaMark said:


> That would be 60 minutes more training on the subject than Trump has ever had.


----------



## Macfury

Souie-eeeeeeeeee!



FeXL said:


> Another day ending in "Y"...
> 
> Halifax police investigating alleged sexual assault involving Liberal MP
> 
> 
> 
> Related:
> 
> Trudeau, Hehr attend Liberal sexual harassment training session
> 
> 
> 
> A whole _hour_! Alrighty, then...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Souie-eeeeeeeeee!


Where is my Priapus drivin' little buddy anyways? Haven't seen him here recently. Maybe he ran out of battery somewhere between Armpit, AZ & Butt Crack, UT & can't find a charger...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Where is my Priapus drivin' little buddy anyways? Haven't seen him here recently. Maybe he ran out of battery somewhere between Armpit, AZ & Butt Crack, UT & can't find a charger...


He's in mourning over the collapse of that progressive utopia, MacDiscussions.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau Government Hid Warnings About Returning ISIS Fighters And Possible Chemical Weapons Threat



> The Trudeau government removed all references to ISIS fighters returning to Canada and posing a potential chemical weapons threat from a government report, despite warnings from its own public safety department.
> 
> According to documents obtained by Global News through an Access to Information request, the Liberal government redacted the final version of a Public Safety Canada report on the potential domestic terrorism threats of returning ISIS members.
> 
> The sanitized result was the 2017 “Public Report on the Terrorist Threat to Canada.”
> 
> Instead, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has insisted the ISIS fighters can be rehabilitated and returned to Canadian society. At one town hall meeting, he compared them to the post-Second World War immigrants arriving from Italy.


Related:


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> He's in mourning over the collapse of that progressive utopia, MacDiscussions.


So sad...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## FeXL

Good! Another 90 cents or so & it'll be precisely where I want it.

Gas prices reach 157.9 cents a litre, breaking Vancouver record



> Drivers woke up to more pain at the pumps Monday as prices reached 157.9 cents a litre in parts of Metro Vancouver – and analysts predict they will rise even further mid-week.
> 
> Dan McTeague of GasBuddy.com said gas should hit 158.9 on Wednesday, breaking the region's all-time record high for fuel prices, then continue climbing even higher next month.
> 
> "We're looking at $1.62 for the end of the month of May," McTeague said. "I would not be surprised to see us pushing 162.9 at various times throughout the summer."


Too bad we couldn't take the edge off this with, say, a new pipeline...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Good! Another 90 cents or so & it'll be precisely where I want it.
> 
> 
> 
> Gas prices reach 157.9 cents a litre, breaking Vancouver record
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad we couldn't take the edge off this with, say, a new pipeline...




Why do you want high gas prices?


----------



## FeXL

Generally, I don't. Specifically for BC, I do.

Why? Read the last line of my post you quoted...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why do you want high gas prices?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Generally, I don't. Specifically for BC, I do.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Read the last line of my post you quoted...




Problem is, when it goes up in BC, it goes up here too. Read the price at the pumps in Alberta this morning.


----------



## FeXL

I did this morning. Fueled up at Costco, $1.229. Elsewhere it showed $1.349. But it's punishing the bastards who are opposed to KM more so, which suits me just fine. As I've noted, when it hits $2.50 in Vancouver, I'll be celebrating here.

There's two things that jacked up fuel prices today, first is a "shortfall" of crude, second is the Canuck buck's been taking a dive recently. The first can be fixed, which will then help the second. Win/win.

BTW, Freddie, what would Alberta's gasoline price be if we weren't subject to Red Rachel's bull$h!t carbon tax?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Problem is, when it goes up in BC, it goes up here too. Read the price at the pumps in Alberta this morning.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> I did this morning. Fueled up at Costco, $1.229. Elsewhere it showed $1.349. But it's punishing the bastards who are opposed to KM more so, which suits me just fine. As I've noted, when it hits $2.50 in Vancouver, I'll be celebrating here.
> 
> 
> 
> There's two things that jacked up fuel prices today, first is a "shortfall" of crude, second is the Canuck buck's been taking a dive recently. The first can be fixed, which will then help the second. Win/win.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Freddie, what would Alberta's gasoline price be if we weren't subject to Red Rachel's bull$h!t carbon tax?




Not much difference, to be honest. Ten cents at most.


----------



## FeXL

10¢/litre not much? :yikes: Must be nice to be a teacher.

When I'm putting 150+ litres in the 'Burb, I'll take the $15/tank savings, thankyouverymuch...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Not much difference, to be honest. Ten cents at most.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> 10¢/litre not much? :yikes: Must be nice to be a teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> When I'm putting 150+ litres in the 'Burb, I'll take the $15/tank savings, thankyouverymuch...




There's enough volatility in the price anyway that the carbon tax doesn't honestly add that much. I remember it was about a nickel in the dollar when first introduced, but the price fluctuations actually caused the total price to go down at the time, not up.


----------



## Macfury

Regardless of volatility, the carbon tax always adds up to the same amount per litre. That it can be masked by market efficiencies does not make it right.



Freddie_Biff said:


> There's enough volatility in the price anyway that the carbon tax doesn't honestly add that much. I remember it was about a nickel in the dollar when first introduced, but the price fluctuations actually caused the total price to go down at the time, not up.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, if yer a conscientious church, you won't get federal summer job funding. But if yer an anti-pipeline activist, how much do you want?

Trudeau defends summer jobs grant to anti-pipeline activists on free speech grounds



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Wednesday there’s no problem with a Canada Summer Jobs grant that will fund anti-pipeline activism, arguing his government must stand up for the principle of free expression and advocacy.
> 
> That may surprise the religious organizations who have been battling the government for months over the same summer jobs grants, thanks to a new clause that requires them to attest their “core mandate” respects reproductive rights, defined as the right to access abortions.
> 
> The issue dominated a fiery question period in the House of Commons Wednesday, as the Conservatives hammered Trudeau over the fact the British Columbia-based Dogwood Initiative was approved for federal government funding that, according to a job posting, will be used to hire an assistant to “help our organizing network stop the Kinder Morgan pipeline and tanker project.”


So, Juthdin, here's a little of that free speech that you endorse so much: Fukc you, the hat you're wearing & the horse you rode in on...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

The real cost of Canada’s carbon tax? It’s $35 billion per year, says expert



> This figure was explained by Christopher Ragan, an economics professor at McGill University, on the SiriusXM Canada program National Post Radio. Ragan is also chair of Canada’s Ecofiscal Commission, the leading independent policy group in the country that researches and advocates carbon pricing.
> 
> *“If you multiply $50 per tonne by 700 million tonnes of emissions I think you get a number that’s $35 billion,” Ragan said.*


Bold mine.

So, Freddie, help me out with this math...

If Canada's population is currently just under 38,000,000 people, and emission are going to be taxed $35,000,000,000/year, how much will each Canadian have to pay in carbon taxes?

And, while I've got you on the line, a follow-up question: Precisely what are we getting for our money? What is the net global temperature drop going to be after this little experiment?


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

I'm sure he hath a pair of thocks for this...

Trudeau blames Conservatives for border crisis



> Now questioned about the border crisis and what he will do to fix it, Trudeau responds to question after question from Conservative leader Andrew Scheer by saying it is all the fault of the Conservatives.
> 
> What will Trudeau do to stop the rising numbers? Blames the Conservatives.
> 
> What will Trudeau say to families following the rules to come to Canada as other jump the line? Blame the Conservatives.


----------



## FeXL

Related to post #22056 above.

Information Commissioner launches investigation into government over carbon tax data



> The federal finance department is now under investigation by the Office of the Information Commissioner for their refusal to release data about the financial costs of a carbon tax per household.


Further to this, and seeing as Freddie continues to illustrate his difficulty with math, $35,000,000,000/38,000,000 people=$921 for every man, woman & child in the country. Per _year_...

As to the reduction of the planet's fever? So small as to be unmeasurable.

Thank you, lefty politicians.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

I see The Hairdo playing Mr. Dressup & I just want to hurl in technicolour. You wanna dress up like an East Indian? Fine. Go for it. Show the planet your freak.

Putting on a Stetson to make it look like your silver spoon fed, trust fund ass has anything in common with us hard working Albertans is an insult.

Justin Trudeau’s Texas-size pipeline crisis



> Polls suggest that Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will face a tougher battle for reelection next year than many expected. Significant voices in the Canadian press — and not just center-right ones — have moved sharply against him and are entrenching the notion that his once-uplifting government has become stagnant and annoying, obsessed with public relations stunts and politically correct busy-bodying at the expense of much else.


The only thing that would supercede the schadenfreude I gathered from Trump's win & the schadenfreude I'm going to enjoy from turning Red Rachel out to pasture in a year would be if this bum was restricted to a single, eminently forgettable term.

Related:


----------



## FeXL

Diversity bollards!!!

CAUTION: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

In business news… Religion of Peace sparks Bollard Bonanza for Surrey firm



> Brad Done watched carefully as a machinist drilled a hole into a bright yellow metal tube about a metre long and 10 centimetres across at his Surrey, B.C., business, Reliance Foundry.
> 
> The pole is called a bollard, designed to be set into the ground to keep vehicles away from people and buildings.
> 
> The demand for this product is so strong it’s become the main focus of his business, which once forged metal into tools and other products for B.C. industries.


Related:

The CBC’s lesson about the Yonge Street van attack? Traffic kills



> Or so it seemed until Wednesday morning when, less than 48 hours after the event, the CBC had managed to find a social and political cause to attach to the deaths and injuries: automobile traffic.


Related, too:


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

When even _Maclean's_ takes notice...

Justin Trudeau’s latest stumble: snubbing Sri Lanka



> A spokesperson for the Sri Lankan government tells _Maclean’s_ the country is concerned that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau repeatedly sidelined the South Asian nation’s majority ethnic group in his festive statements—one of which was described internally as “clearly out of step” by his national security advisor Daniel Jean.
> 
> Sri Lanka’s concerns, expressed publicly for the first time, represent yet another South Asian diplomatic hiccup for Trudeau, who, despite a personal charm that has won fans abroad, had a backlash-laden trip to India in February, a matter that also involved Jean.


----------



## FeXL

Good!

Vancouver gas prices just broke a North American record set in LA in 2008



> Vancouver’s gas prices have now set a new North American record.
> 
> On Monday morning, gas prices throughout the Lower Mainland are sitting at an average of $1.619.
> 
> Some gas stations are still lower, however.
> 
> This new milestone has beat a North American record, which was set in Los Angeles in 2008.


So, for those of you on the coast that approve KM, I'm sorry you're getting raped like this. For those of you who protest KM, I hope the price hits $2.50...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Good, too!

Liberals and Tories increasing debate on gun control could take spotlight at upcoming federal elections



> Gun control could wind up being a defining issue in next year’s federal election.
> 
> Eighteen months ahead of the vote, both the governing party and the official Opposition are laying the groundwork for making guns a wedge issue, to carve away a share of each other’s softer support. The Liberals are aiming at cities and suburbs, while the Conservatives focus on rural and remote ridings.


I'd like nothing more than to see a dozen or more rural Liberal MP's lose their jobs...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

My tax dollars at work.

$10 mill certainly don't get what it used to...

$10M journalism fund would create 80 -- count 'em -- 80 jobs, says @CdnHeritage memo.

Frankly, I can't see any lefty journalist working for a mere $125,000/yr.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Raaaacists!!!

Canada Now Wants U.S. To Enforce Its Immigration Laws — To Protect Canada



> Canadian authorities, concerned with the increasing number of illegal immigrants now straining their resources, want the United States to do a better job enforcing its own immigration law and vetting visitors from Nigeria so that they don't eventually make their way to Canadian soil.
> 
> According to The Washington Post, since it's become more difficult to stay in the United States on a temporary visa, Nigerians are requesting tourist visas from the United States, which already require a certain amount of vetting, but before those visas fully expire, the Nigerians are "walking into Canada" where they are requesting asylum.
> 
> *Now, Canadian officials want the United States — which already vets tourist visa recipients — to kindly ask Nigerian tourists about their Canadian travel plans so that the U.S. can catch potential illegal immigrants at our border.*


Bold mine.

Juthdin can't be seen as the bad guy by actually sending them back home himself...

Related:

'Poor' asylum seekers dump expensive electronics



> Toronto Sun has found evidence that casts doubt on what the Trudeau government has been telling us about the flood of asylum seekers crossing into Canada on foot. We have been told that these refugees are poor migrants, fleeing Donald Trump, and yet, evidence on the ground suggests something very different.
> 
> Thousands of dollars of electronics and phones were found by the Toronto Sun, discarded near a popular illegal border crossing on Roxham Rd. in rural Quebec.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> When even _Maclean's_ takes notice...
> 
> Justin Trudeau’s latest stumble: snubbing Sri Lanka


What would you expect, he was probably thinking Battle Star Galactica.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> What would you expect, he was probably thinking Battle Star Galactica.


<snort>


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Atta girl, Juthdin! Shouting out from behind the skirts of the real leaders of the world.

Ottawa demands North Korea ‘completely’ abandon nuclear arms, missile programs



> "Ottawa demands North Korea ‘completely’ abandon nuclear arms, missile programs"? When I prayed that God would strike the liberals dumb, I should've clarified that I meant speechless.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Border services working with RCMP on migrants raises questions



> Evidence exclusively obtained by the Toronto Sun suggests that the Canadian Border Service Agency (CBSA) is co-operating with the RCMP in dealing with the flood of migrants entering Canada illegally. This is significant given that CBSA deals exclusively with legal border crossings, while the RCMP is responsible for illegal crossing.
> 
> Working together suggests a blurring of responsibility, and raises further questions about why our immigration laws are not being enforced at unofficial crossings.


Related:

WATCH LIVE AS PPL ILLEGALLY CROSS INTO CANADA


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> <snort>


I didn’t think anyone was going to get that joke!


----------



## FeXL

Posted sans comment.

Windsor, Ontario: Ahmadiyya Muslims invite teachers to mosque to learn the “peaceful” “true nature of Islam”


----------



## FeXL

UN Agency That Helps Palestinians in Serious Need of Reform: Jewish Group



> Ottawa’s recent $10 million emergency donation to the U.N. agency that helps Palestinian refugees has drawn criticism from Canada’s former ambassador to Israel and Jewish groups who say the agency is in need of serious reform, including curbing the incitement of hate against Israel in its classrooms.
> 
> Following the U.S. government’s decision in January to withhold $65 million of its $125 million planned funding to the UN Relief and Welfare Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), the head of the agency appealed to other donor countries to supply emergency humanitarian aid, claiming the loss of U.S. funding would risk instability in the region.


Any money that goes to the UN is a waste of taxpayer funds.


----------



## FeXL

Believe it when I see it.

Federal government to intervene in B.C.’s Trans Mountain pipeline reference question



> The federal government has announced it will intervene in the constitutional reference question filed by the government of British Columbia about the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.
> 
> Jody Wilson-Raybould, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, issued a statement Thursday saying:
> 
> _“The Government of Canada will intervene in the constitutional reference question filed by the Government of British Columbia under the BC Constitutional Questions Act.
> 
> “We are confident in Parliament’s jurisdiction and will intervene on the question in order to defend our clear jurisdiction over interprovincial pipelines.”_​


----------



## SINC

Really? The NDP really expect to try and lure support from a million Canadians with this guy as a leader? Good luck with that in rural Canada and especially on the prairies.

John Ivison: Left-of-centre Liberals leave Singh’s NDP struggling for relevance | National Post


----------



## Macfury

His policy ideas make Rachel Notley look like a reasonable person.



SINC said:


> Really? The NDP really expect to try and lure support from a million Canadians with this guy as a leader? Good luck with that in rural Canada and especially on the prairies.
> 
> John Ivison: Left-of-centre Liberals leave Singh’s NDP struggling for relevance | National Post


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Really? The NDP really expect to try and lure support from a million Canadians with this guy as a leader? Good luck with that in rural Canada and especially on the prairies.
> 
> John Ivison: Left-of-centre Liberals leave Singh’s NDP struggling for relevance | National Post


I guess the question is....has the NDP jumped the shark.......


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I guess the question is....has the NDP jumped the shark.......


Best thing about Singh is is his willingness to work with Conservatives to topple a minority Liberal government.


----------



## wonderings

A friend of mine posted this, sad to say I am not really shocked. 
MALCOLM: Controversial Islamic groups receive Canada Summer Jobs Grants | Toronto Sun

So Christian groups who do not agree with the governments philosophy lose funding, but not these guys who according to the article sound pretty awful. 

The whole thing is abhorrent in my opinion, the government should stay out of telling its citizens how they should think and what they agree with as moral and immoral. It is a sad day if we look to the government for our moral compass and even scarier when they become our moral dictators.


----------



## CubaMark

*When is a carbon tax not a carbon tax? When Jason Kenney's pitching it*










Liberal MP Jennifer O'Connell used her first two questions to challenge Kenney on his views of climate change and the record of the previous Conservative government.

O'Connell did at least get Kenney to say what he might do differently. Kenney suggested he might, as premier, return to Alberta's Specified Gas Emitters Regulation, a policy that forced the province's largest emitters to pay into a technology fund.

So Kenney's answer to the NDP's price on carbon is ... a different price on carbon. Perhaps Kenney could design his policy in a way that somehow costs less. But there are questions about how well the SGER actually reduced emissions.

A less-effective policy could undermine Canada's ability to meet its 2030 target for emissions reductions — a target adopted by that same Conservative government of which Kenney was a member. In an interview on CBC's Power & Politics on Monday, Kenney suggested he wasn't overly concerned with Canada meeting that target.

Thing is, Andrew Scheer, the federal Conservative leader, says he intends to present a plan that will meet the national target.

(CBC)​


----------



## SINC

I am sick to death of all the bull crap that is a carbon tax. Canada is carbon neutral at worst and probably better at best. This scam simply has to stop and any government that supports it is completely out of touch with reality. Can you spell "CASH GRAB"?


----------



## FeXL

Any idiot, left, right or centre, who thinks that a carbon tax is:
a) Required (as in to save the planet);
b) Going to work (as in causing people to significantly adjust their use of energy in any form);
c) Anything more than a cash grab;

Deserves to be buried for eternity in the deepest depths of hell, either because of terminal stupidity, wilful ignorance, or both.



CubaMark said:


> When is a carbon tax not a carbon tax? When Jason Kenney's pitching it


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> When is a carbon tax not a carbon tax? When Jason Kenney's pitching it


That's not a carbon tax as it targets pollution. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. Time to get these two concepts unhooked from each other, and Kenney is doing that.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> a) Required (as in to save the planet);
> b) Going to work (as in causing people to significantly adjust their use of energy in any form);
> c) Anything more than a cash grab;


I disagree with most of your points but am interested how other ehmacers who support the generic policy (if not every specific instance) will respond.


----------



## Macfury

The generic policy of carbon taxes?


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> The generic policy of carbon taxes?


There are different versions by province, and also the federal policy which is generic (does not specify every detail of what provinces are to do).


----------



## SINC

Beej said:


> There are different versions by province, and also the federal policy which is generic (does not specify every detail of what provinces are to do).





Beej said:


> I disagree with most of your points but am interested how other ehmacers who support the generic policy (if not every specific instance) will respond.


Here are my thoughts.

I keep reading that Canada is carbon neutral or better in that we have enough forests that consume as much carbon as the nation produces and more. This seems logical to me and if true, there is zero need to impose any carbon taxes on Canadians. Further since Canada is said to also only produce less than one percent of the world's carbon, it seems doubly bad that we are penalizing ourselves with crippling taxes to look good on the world stage and not much else.


----------



## eMacMan

I do not believe the lamestream propaganda concerning Man made cataclysmic global warming. Even if I did there is only one way a carbon tax can reduce CO2 output. It has to be so severe, that the bottom 10 or 20%, lose their homes and cars. Even then the impact is negligible as these people out of economic necessity have already pared their energy consumption to the bone.

As to why I don't believe check out my earlier posts from the Alberta NDP thread:

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-216.html#post2423802

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-216.html#post2424234

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-221.html#post2425329

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-222.html#post2425793

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-224.html#post2427201

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-235.html#post2435265

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-242.html#post2438393

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/134705-alberta-ndp-thread-244.html#post2439113


----------



## wonderings

SINC said:


> Here are my thoughts.
> 
> I keep reading that Canada is carbon neutral or better in that we have enough forests that consume as much carbon as the nation produces and more. This seems logical to me and if true, there is zero need to impose any carbon taxes on Canadians. Further since Canada is said to also only produce less than one percent of the world's carbon, it seems doubly bad that we are penalizing ourselves with crippling taxes to look good on the world stage and not much else.


Politicians know what they are doing and we should trust them. This is why we should never have outside people with no experience running government, they would just muck everything up!


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> Politicians know what they are doing and we should trust them. This is why we should never have outside people with no experience running government, they would just muck everything up!


Man, that was good. What deadpan. You never even cracked a smile...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Could just as easily be posted in the Gun Control or MSM threads.

This is why people don’t trust the media



> The media is its own worst enemy.
> 
> If you don’t know why so many people tune out the mainstream media consider the headline and facts in this story from Canadian Press. The headline clearly claims that the PM is under pressure on semi-automatic rifles. Hmmmmm, what could that mean?
> 
> ...
> 
> You would think with a headline like that, that the PM might be facing a petition of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions even. That would be pressure.
> 
> No, it was *75 people* according to the story.


Bold mine.

More:



> Compare that to the *more than 75,000* that signed a petition calling for the PM to scrap his new gun bill, C-71.


Bold mine, too.

What an idiot...


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> a) Required (as in to save the planet);
> b) Going to work (as in causing people to significantly adjust their use of energy in any form);
> c) Anything more than a cash grab;


It has only been a day or so, but does anyone who supports the policy of carbon taxes (aside from me) have a response? I don't mean someone who can cut and paste a link, but someone who can in their own words respond to the quoted points.


----------



## Macfury

There are people here who support any tax that bulks up the welfare state, but would not care about the details of a carbon tax.

Most of us here believe it makes as much sense as taxing sunlight.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> It has only been a day or so, but does anyone who supports the policy of carbon taxes (aside from me) have a response? I don't mean someone who can cut and paste a link, but someone who can in their own words respond to the quoted points.


Well, Beej, yer up. Which do you agree with, which do you not agree with, & why?


----------



## FeXL

Huh. 'Magine that. Another lefty politician in the limelight for sexual misconduct.

The curious case of Christine Moore



> How many claims of sexual impropriety can one MP be involved in? Well, if you are New Democrat MP Christine Moore the answer, so far, is three with Moore playing different starring roles in each one.
> 
> Moore, a 34 year-old MP from Northern Quebec, was suspended from her duties in the NDP caucus but remains a member of the party after Moore, who has been an accuser before, was accused by a vet of inappropriate actions.


----------



## FeXL

Canada will formally apologize for turning away Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany: Trudeau



> The decision by Canada to force the German ocean liner 'MS St. Louis' to return to Europe was a blight on our collective past, Trudeau said at a fundraising event


I agree.

Speaking of blights on our past, who is going to apologize for Juthdin?

Jes' askin'...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Talking Doll!



> Justin Trudeau Talking Tribute Portrait Doll – $129.99*


Comments freaking hilarious.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Well, Beej, yer up. Which do you agree with, which do you not agree with, & why?


Maybe next time. I'm still waiting to see if anyone else who supports this policy can address those points. 

The wait should be brief. After all, it's not like people thoughtlessly adopt the dominant opinion within their social circles. Supporters probably put a lot of thinking into this, but haven't had time to respond. The weekend should clear that up.


----------



## Macfury

Over the past two to three years, no supporter of a carbon tax at EhMac has articulated a position for this beyond a vague "anything is better than nothing to save the planet" or "social license to build pipelines." Furthermore, there has been no articulation of a position supporting the role of so-called GHGs in "climate change" beyond "the IPCC says so" or "99% of scientists agree." You can wait the weekend, but I've been waiting three or four years for even the hint of anything beyond faith-based support of either "the science" or carbon taxes.



Beej said:


> Maybe next time. I'm still waiting to see if anyone else who supports this policy can address those points.
> 
> The wait should be brief. After all, it's not like people thoughtlessly adopt the dominant opinion within their social circles. Supporters probably put a lot of thinking into this, but haven't had time to respond. The weekend should clear that up.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Over the past two to three years, no supporter of a carbon tax at EhMac has articulated a position for this beyond a vague "anything is better than nothing to save the planet" or "social license to build pipelines." Furthermore, there has been no articulation of a position supporting the role of so-called GHGs in "climate change" beyond "the IPCC says so" or "99% of scientists agree."


This, in spades.

Then again, I find the left's ability to defend their position on anything, generally speaking, vague & weak.



Macfury said:


> You can wait the weekend, but *I've been waiting three or four years* for even the hint of anything beyond faith-based support of either "the science" or carbon taxes.


I started this thread in '06.

There has been nothing, zero, offered over the course of it, GHG2 or GHG3 by anybody to convince me that the whole GHG thing is anything more than a massive hoax perpetrated upon humanity by the compassionate, intellectual, left as a form of wealth transfer from the first world to the third.

Back in the old days, when TIPCC still had a modicum of honesty about them, they even admitted as much.


----------



## eMacMan

Beej said:


> Maybe next time. I'm still waiting to see if anyone else who supports this policy can address those points.
> 
> The wait should be brief. After all, it's not like people thoughtlessly adopt the dominant opinion within their social circles. Supporters probably put a lot of thinking into this, but haven't had time to respond. The weekend should clear that up.





Macfury said:


> Over the past two to three years, no supporter of a carbon tax at EhMac has articulated a position for this beyond a vague "anything is better than nothing to save the planet" or "social license to build pipelines." Furthermore, there has been no articulation of a position supporting the role of so-called GHGs in "climate change" beyond "the IPCC says so" or "99% of scientists agree." You can wait the weekend, but I've been waiting three or four years for even the hint of anything beyond faith-based support of either "the science" or carbon taxes.


Certainly they failed to even attempt to counter any of the points I raised earlier in the Alberta NDP thread. I agree with MF, it's time for them to show their cards!


----------



## Rps

Beej said:


> Maybe next time. I'm still waiting to see if anyone else who supports this policy can address those points.
> 
> The wait should be brief. After all, it's not like people thoughtlessly adopt the dominant opinion within their social circles. Supporters probably put a lot of thinking into this, but haven't had time to respond. The weekend should clear that up.


Beej, I don’t believe in the effectiveness of the carbon tax ( which we in Ontario do not have....sorry Mr. Ford ) or cap and trade. My reasons are as follows:

1. They make little economic sense other than a cash grab. I am naturally suspicious of any law or tax whose sole purpose (in reality) is to get money.

2. We absorb more carbon than we introduce. Politicians have a habit of only quoting one side of the balance sheet when it involves money.

3. If it is soooo important why do we deal in carbon credits? Ask yourself this question....if I was a car jacker and I didn’t car jack anyone this year should I get a prison credit to be used against the years I did?

4. Little substitution ability ....when we have electric airplanes give me a call, Oh and real public transit......been on a bus lately.

5. The real villains are China and India....have fun with that...

Don’t get me wrong, cleaner air, water and soil are important and I would encourage governments to work towards making these happen...but the current inventory they are using now won’t do it.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> a) Required (as in to save the planet);
> b) Going to work (as in causing people to significantly adjust their use of energy in any form);
> c) Anything more than a cash grab;


Looks like MF is right regarding the superficial support for this policy.So I'll go through this one by one if you're still game.

a) Agreed. I'll go further -- this has nothing to do with saving the planet. An asteroid shield would be a much higher priority were that the goal.

Any disagreement?


----------



## SINC

None here. Right on the money far as I am concerned.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Any disagreement?


Sorry for the delay, was out of town.

No disagreement.

Edit:

However, this also begs the question (because your response neatly sidesteps my reason for point 1 in the first place), are you a warmist or a sceptic?


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> b) Going to work (as in causing people to significantly adjust their use of energy in any form);


I should be able to respond to two points at once, given your latest post.

A carbon tax will work, because it raises prices. As for significantly or otherwise, that depends on the price and the fuel.

I think there is a significant chance (say >25%) of damaging human-caused warming. That does not warrant a very high price. So the resulting reductions would not be very large.


----------



## Macfury

Why would you want to reduce people's use of fuels? The correlation of CO2 to warming is extremely weak.There's also no way of testing the success of the policy, unless it's designed only to raise money.

But if I accept your premise that using fuels causes warming, then what about this: 

There's a 100% chance of a coming ice age, so let's reduce the price of fuels to increase the production of carbon dioxide and keep the ice age at bay.



Beej said:


> I should be able to respond to two points at once, given your latest post.
> 
> A carbon tax will work, because it raises prices. As for significantly or otherwise, that depends on the price and the fuel.
> 
> I think there is a significant chance (say >25%) of damaging human-caused warming. That does not warrant a very high price. So the resulting reductions would not be very large.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> A carbon tax will work, because it raises prices. As for significantly or otherwise, that depends on the price and the fuel.


People use whatever fuel they need to use. Whether it's gasoline for vehicles, natural gas to heat your home or coal when the lights are turned on.

I've noted before, I don't know anybody who, when the price of a particular fuel drops, suddenly goes for an unneeded car ride, shucks their sweater & turns up the thermostat in the house or leaves the lights on overnight. Or goes for a couple extra rounds around the field.

It's an absurd claim and, if anybody actually does reduce their use, the delta would be so minute as to be unmeasurable.

Taxes implemented on consumables only reduce consumption if they are not essential. By & large, energy is essential.



Beej said:


> I think there is a significant chance (say >25%) of damaging human-caused warming. That does not warrant a very high price. So the resulting reductions would not be very large.


Awrite, let's do this.

~96% of all the CO2 on the planet is naturally produced. This leaves ~4% at mankind's doorstep. Agreed?

Current atmospheric CO2 concentration (ACC) is ~410 ppm, so ~4 parts per 10,000. Agreed?

The increase in ACC since the industrial age has been from ~280 ppm to the current ~410 ppm. Or, a little more than 1 part per 10,000. Agreed?

96% of that ~130 ppm increase since the start of the industrial revolution (about 125 ppm) has been naturally produced, leaving ~5 ppm with anthropogenic causes. Agreed?

Since the industrial revolution, global average surface temperatures (GAST) have increased ~0.8° C. Agreed?

Therefore, mankind's CO2 production since the industrial revolution has been responsible for 4% of ~0.8°C (making the erroneous assumption, of course, that 100% of the increase in the GAST over that time period is directly the result of increased ACC) which amounts to ~0.032°C. Agreed?

Question 1: Is that amount of temperature change even measurable?

Question 2: Let's assume ACC double, to ~800 ppm or 8 parts per 10,000. Mankind's share of that warming (making the same erroneous assumption about a direct 1:1 relationship) jumps to a stunning 0.064°C. Is that number measurable?

Questions 3a: During the Paleozoic Era (~542 million years ago to ~252 million years ago) ACC were as high as 7000 ppm, or 70 parts per 10,000. Why didn't the planet burn up? Why wasn't there irreversible damage? How did the planet manage to spring back from this "precipice", if it even was one?

Question 3b: How was it possible, with ACC as high as 7000 ppm, to suddenly have a planet wide ice age? Wouldn't all the CO2 induced global warming have prevented that?

Question 3c: If high ACC are truly responsible for ocean acidification, how is it possible that all the calcareous shelled groups extant today (and some from 10's of millions of years ago) started during the Paleozoic in the face of more than an order of magnitude higher ACC?

Question 3d: If the planet managed to come back from 7000 ppm, 70 parts per 10,000, why is the <2 parts per 10,000 increase since the start of the industrial revolution causing paroxysms among the warmists? CO2 is not poison. It's an essential compound for life on this planet. And, despite what Climate Barbie & other uninformed Prog idiots claim, it ain't pollution

Question 4: OK, let's go with your >25% number. Worst case, 100% chance that anthropogenic emissions will cause global warming. Go back to question 2 and tell me how many ppm anthropogenic emissions would need to increase in order to raise the temperature enough for the result to be > the margin of error, ie., actually measurable, using the same erroneous 1:1 relationship.

Question 5: How many hundreds of thousands of tons of CO2 has the recent volcanic activity in Hawaii added to the atmosphere and how does that compare to any reductions mankind has been able to muster in the past year?

Question 6a: In the face of numbers this large from the natural world, what possible changes to the climate are realistic from ~4% of the production of CO2 attributed to mankind, even assuming a guaranteed 100% chance of an effect?

Question 6b: In the face of numbers this large from the natural world, what possible changes to the climate are realistic from a carbon tax alleged to lower anthropogenic emissions through the reduced use of energy?

Answer to question 6b: Sweet. Fukc. All. It cannot be measured. Anyone who says it can is an idiot & insults those of us with enough brain power to melt the snow on our foreheads.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> People use whatever fuel they need to use.


We'll have to disagree then on prices materially affecting decisions related to energy. 

On to the third point:


> c) Anything more than a cash grab;


It can be, and is in the case of Ontario and Alberta. A carbon tax can also be done along with cutting other taxes. So this is situation specific, not an absolute. Best to keep a close eye on politicians...which is always the case.

I've responded to a few of your points, including answering a question along the way. 
So here's a question for you:

Do you think the greenhouse effect exists? I'm not referring to an IPCC model or a policy position. Here is a definition from wikipedia (or use an alternative):



> The greenhouse effect is the process by which radiation, from a planet's atmosphere, warms the planet's surface to a temperature above what it would be without its atmosphere.
> 
> If a planet's atmosphere contains radiatively active gases (i.e., greenhouse gases) they will radiate energy in all directions. Part of this radiation is directed towards the surface, warming it. The intensity of the downward radiation – that is, the strength of the greenhouse effect – will depend on the atmosphere's temperature and on the amount of greenhouse gases that the atmosphere contains.


----------



## Macfury

If the greenhouse effect exists, then water vapour would be the primary driver of the effect--not CO2. However, I've seen actual studies in which identical massive greenhouses were filled with 100% CO2 and normal atmosphere. Their temperatures remained identical under direct sunlight. No additional heat was retained due to the presence of 100% CO2.

To the point that you could institute a carbon tax and cut other taxes--first, I don't believe any politician would do this. They might cut a second tax and increase a third one. It's not testable. 

However, in the absence of any measurable effect on climate, why create a CO2 revenue stream? Why not reward people with tax incentives to agree never to use particular government programs or to change concrete landscaping to permeable cover to reduce stormwater surges? The benefits in these cases are real, not imagined. 

It's not relevant to me that you imagine GHG threats to be worth a 25% tax. Someone else might imagine them to be worth a 100% tax. In the absence of strong science, it's all imagination.




Beej said:


> We'll have to disagree then on prices materially affecting decisions related to energy.
> 
> On to the third point:
> 
> 
> It can be, and is in the case of Ontario and Alberta. A carbon tax can also be done along with cutting other taxes. So this is situation specific, not an absolute. Best to keep a close eye on politicians...which is always the case.
> 
> I've responded to a few of your points, including answering a question along the way.
> So here's a question for you:
> 
> Do you think the greenhouse effect exists? I'm not referring to an IPCC model or a policy position. Here is a definition from wikipedia (or use an alternative):


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> We'll have to disagree then on prices materially affecting decisions related to energy.


Define "material". Gotta be at least double digits.

IMNSHO, as I've noted, very few people will be able to make _significant_ changes in their overall energy consumption and the ones who can generally don't care about the cost of the carbon tax in the first place. Looking at our own household, we don't drive the car, minivan or truck anywhere we don't need to, our household thermostat is already at 18°C in winter (the studio is held at 12° unless we have an appointment), we don't have A/C, most of the lightbulbs are already energy efficient and our light switches are wearing out because we turn them off so much. 

Sure, we could go back to the stone age but that's not a direction I (or, I suspect, many others) would be willing to take. We couldn't squeeze a 10% reduction in overall energy use if we tried. 5% is unlikely.

And, the thing that really p!$$es me off is that this whole carbon tax thing doesn't reward you for improvements to the system. Say you spend tens of thousands of dollars on house upgrades, insulation, outsulation, windows, doors, furnace, whatever. You still get fully taxed for what you use. Say we get rid of the 15 mpg 'Burb & buy a vehicle that gets 40 mpg. We still get fully taxed. Where's the incentive? The tax saving on the single digit energy reductions? Whoop-de-fukcing-do. I'll blow a year's "savings" on the first pint Friday night.



Beej said:


> On to the third point:
> 
> 
> It can be, and is in the case of Ontario and Alberta. A carbon tax can also be done along with cutting other taxes. So this is situation specific, not an absolute. Best to keep a close eye on politicians...which is always the case.


No way in hell any politician who supports the carbon tax in the first place is going to exchange it for an extant one in the second.



Beej said:


> I've responded to a few of your points, including answering a question along the way.


Yes, but you missed a few. 



Beej said:


> So here's a question for you:
> 
> Do you think the greenhouse effect exists? I'm not referring to an IPCC model or a policy position. Here is a definition from wikipedia (or use an alternative):


Yes. I also believe that the warming generated by the greenhouse effect of CO2 on the planet as an open system is minimal. I also believe that, as MF noted, water vapour (at ~1-4% of the earth's atmosphere) is by far a greater part of the equation than CO2, at 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere.

Edit:

There is also some evidence that the spectra for CO2 is already saturated, leading some to conclude that is why, despite an increase in ACC, there has been no subsequent increase in GAST. I don't agree with that conclusion.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Yes. I also believe that the warming generated by the greenhouse effect of CO2 on the planet as an open system is minimal. I also believe that, as MF noted, water vapour (at ~1-4% of the earth's atmosphere) is by far a greater part of the equation than CO2, at 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere.


As such, I could accept a carbon tax of 0.04% provided the tax is never allowed to rise beyond atmospheric levels.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> As such, I could accept a carbon tax of 0.04% provided the tax is never allowed to rise beyond atmospheric levels.


I just want all the tax dollars back that have been p!$$ed away on a non-existant problem. A trilion here, a trillion there, pretty soon yer talkin' real money...


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Yes. I also believe that the warming generated by the greenhouse effect of CO2 on the planet as an open system is minimal. I also believe that, as MF noted, water vapour (at ~1-4% of the earth's atmosphere) is by far a greater part of the equation than CO2, at 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere.


That's clear. Now we could go to one of your more recent points.



> 96% of that ~130 ppm increase since the start of the industrial revolution (about 125 ppm) has been naturally produced, leaving ~5 ppm with anthropogenic causes. Agreed?


Disagree with this characterization. 

There are about 30 billion tonnes of emissions per year from us, plus about 800 in and 800 out regardless of us. That's the ~4% I think you're referring to. If so, your statement implies that if our emissions were gone, then nature would absorb about 29 billion tonnes less per year (ie. only a 4% change in the net outflow).

I think there is "flex" in that our increased emissions do increase how much is absorbed, but not nearly that much.

What do you think the CO2 concentration would be without cumulative human-caused emissions?


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> What do you think the CO2 concentration would be without cumulative human-caused emissions?


That question isn't very relevant unless one demonstrates the link between temperature and CO2 concentrations. Models don't do that.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Disagree with this characterization.


First off, it's not a characterization, it's a well known fact that man's non-absorbed CO2 contributions are about 4% of the planet's CO2 inventory. At least it was a few years ago. I'll be honest, I haven't visited many "global warming" sites over the last couple of years & the data may have changed.

Second off, you are right to disagree with it but only because it was a crass generalization. Why? Anthropogenic CO2 output since the industrial revolution was so minimal up to about 1950 that there was no way to track an effect. Therefore, while that 4% figure may be 21st century accurate, it was certainly far less a hunnert, two hunnert years ago. The way I used the figure, 4% of _everything_ since 1760, gives warmists the benefit of the doubt.



Beej said:


> What do you think the CO2 concentration would be without cumulative human-caused emissions?


Good question. The only article I've ever read that addressed that (a number of years back) noted 350ppm, if memory serves. I found little to disagree with.

You have to remember that, along with the industrial revolution, we were coming out of the Little Ice Age. That in itself was going to raise temperatures and, subsequently, ACC.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> First off, it's not a characterization, it's a well known fact that man's non-absorbed CO2 contributions are about 4% of the planet's CO2 inventory.


Maybe this is referring to stocks versus flows, or we're talking about atmospheric CO2 versus other. Either way: we disagree on how much human-caused emissions have raised atmospheric CO2 concentration. I think they have played a large role.

Here are some numbers, let me know if I've made errors.
Cumulative human-caused emissions: 2,000 gigatonnes CO2
Total atmospheric stock: 3,200 gigatonnes CO2

Not that I think all 2,000 is staying in the atmosphere, but I'll go through the calculation anyway.
3,200 Gt = 400 ppm; minus the 2,000 is
1,200 Gt = 150 ppm.
Estimate for around 1900 = 300 ppm.

This question fits well with the numbers:


> Question 5: How many hundreds of thousands of tons of CO2 has the recent volcanic activity in Hawaii added to the atmosphere and how does that compare to any reductions mankind has been able to muster in the past year?


I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of tonnes. How about you handle that part and I'll give some examples of reductions.

Ontario shutting down it's coal plants reduces emissions by about 20 million tonnes per year. 300 million megawatt hours of solar and wind in China is reducing emissions by about 300 million tonnes per year if it's replacing coal (not that CO2 is why they built the facilities). How does the Hawaii volcano number compare?

All volcanoes emit less than 1 billion tonnes per year by the latest estimates I saw. Human activity results in over 30 billion tonnes per year.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, he's p!$$ed off the Kaybeckers with illegals to the point where he now has to send them to Ontario. That & the below noted action will p!$$ of Ontarioans. Perhaps he'll offend so many people that enough will grab a clew & he will only be a single term waste of skin & oxygen.

Here's hopin'...

Travel delays expected as customs agents being moved from GTA to Quebec to handle migrant surge



> Border and customs agents are being pulled from the Greater Toronto Area to handle a a “significant” influx of asylum seekers across the U.S. border into Quebec over the summer months.
> 
> The move is expected to lead to delays for travellers embarking from overseas and U.S. flights at Toronto’s Pearson International airport – the country’s busiest airport – and land-border crossings in southern Ontario.


Related:

Jason Kenney stands by saying Trudeau ‘can’t read a briefing note longer than a cocktail napkin’



> In a Calgary Sun column published Wednesday, Kenney was quoted attacking Trudeau’s ability to resolve a dispute that has delayed construction on the Trans Mountain pipeline, which would triple the amount of Alberta oil flowing to tankers in B.C. Trudeau doesn’t have “the foggiest idea what’s going on,” Kenney said in the column.
> 
> “I know Justin. He doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing. This guy is an empty trust-fund millionaire who has the political depth of a finger bowl,” he is quoted as saying.


More:

Alberta UCP Leader Jason Kenney stands by calling Trudeau empty, clueless



> Kenney says, from his experience, Trudeau struggles to grasp complex political issues, particularly the debate around the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.


While I need no confirmation of The Hairdo's vapidity, it's nice to see it hit the news every so often...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

No NAFTA deal will be reached by Thursday’s U.S. deadline, Canada and Mexico say



> No North American Free Trade Agreement deal will be reached by the Thursday deadline imposed by a top U.S. legislator, a Canadian government source and Mexico’s economy secretary said on Wednesday.
> 
> U.S. House Speaker Paul Ryan says a NAFTA deal would have to be made by Thursday in order for this Congress, which is controlled by trade-friendly Republicans, to hold a vote by the end of the year.


Gueth they just don't like The Hairdo's virtue signalling...


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Here are some numbers, let me know if I've made errors.
> Cumulative human-caused emissions: 2,000 gigatonnes CO2
> Total atmospheric stock: 3,200 gigatonnes CO2


Couldn't say. It's not a set of numbers I keep track of.



Beej said:


> Not that I think all 2,000 is staying in the atmosphere, but I'll go through the calculation anyway.
> 3,200 Gt = 400 ppm; minus the 2,000 is
> 1,200 Gt = 150 ppm.
> Estimate for around 1900 = 300 ppm.


The last estimate I read (recently) on how much anthropogenic CO2 gets reabsorbed was 57%. There was an hypothesis put forth at one time that the number could not get higher than 50% but, for reasons I am unaware of, there is some evidence that the more anthropogenic CO2 gets emitted into the atmosphere, the more gets reabsorbed. I've never read the 57% study but it begs the question: If it works for anthropogenic CO2, why wouldn't it do the same for naturally occurring CO2? It's not like ma nature can differentiate between the two.

As such, I think your calculation is significantly off, by at least 50%. In addition, why are you comparing _all_ anthropogenic CO2 emissions against just the _current_ planetary inventory? Shouldn't that be all:all?



Beej said:


> I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of tonnes. How about you handle that part and I'll give some examples of reductions.


It's not the actual numbers. My point is, for all the so-called "reductions" mankind may or may not manage in a year, one single volcanic event can erase all that progress. Then, after spending hundreds of billions of taxpayer funded dollars, we're back to square one. Why bother? The planet is not burning up, nor will it. It didn't happen at 7000ppm ACC, it ain't gonna at 410, 500 or a 1000 or more.

How about if we took all that cash & drilled a well or three in third world countries? Or eradicated a coupla diseases? Or fed a few people? Or housed a handful of families? Or made progress on forms of energy that don't have CO2 as a byproduct (cough...hydrogen...cough...thorium...cough)? Can you imagine what a trillion $$ here & a trillion $$ there could do? I'm not a big fan of social welfare programs but, if we _gotta_ spend cash on something, how about non-imaginary problems whose previous efforts won't be wiped out by the first naturally occurring disaster that happens along?



Beej said:


> Ontario shutting down it's coal plants reduces emissions by about 20 million tonnes per year.


Fine. But at what economic hardship? None of this is free.



Beej said:


> 300 million megawatt hours of solar and wind in China is reducing emissions by about 300 million tonnes per year if it's replacing coal (not that CO2 is why they built the facilities).


That's a big if. There are currently dozens of new startup coal generators with more up & coming in China. If alternative energy is replacing coal, why the new coal power plants? I think the alternative energy is largely for more remote areas to which it would be economically infeasible or electrically impossible to run power lines.

In addition, there is significant evidence that alternative energy is just as bad, if not worse, for the environment, both in the manufacturing & construction thereof.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> The last estimate I read (recently) on how much anthropogenic CO2 gets reabsorbed
> was 57%.


I'll round that to 60% for this example:
3,200 Gt = 400 ppm; minus the 800 (remaining 40% of the 2,000 Gt human-caused emissions) is
2,400 Gt = 300 ppm.
Estimate for around 1900 = 300 ppm.

That implies about 100% of the CO2 increase is human-caused.

In response to my question on what the CO2 concentration would be without cumulative human-caused emissions:


> The only article I've ever read that addressed that (a number of years back) noted 350ppm, if memory serves. I found little to disagree with.


This implies about 50% of the CO2 increase is human-caused.

From an earlier post:


> 96% of that ~130 ppm increase since the start of the industrial revolution (about 125 ppm) has been naturally produced, leaving ~5 ppm with anthropogenic causes.


This states 4% of the increase is human-caused.

I'm not sure we disagree on this anymore because I don't know what you believe. I'm closest to the 100% claim.



> It's not the actual numbers. My point is, for all the so-called "reductions" mankind may or may not manage in a year, one single volcanic event can erase all that progress.


I would like to see the numbers behind this claim for a single volcanic event, such as the current Hawaii situation, offsetting all global reductions in a year. I think this is not true.


----------



## eMacMan

Beej said:


> I would like to see the numbers behind this claim for a single volcanic event, such as the current Hawaii situation, offsetting all global reductions in a year. I think this is not true.


The fact that those numbers are not being made available through the Lamestream media should tell you everything you need to know. That says quite clearly that the true believers know Mother Nature via a single volcano or big forest fire can blast all of mans CO2 savings completely off the map.


----------



## Macfury

I've read that Mt. Pinatubo blew off 50 million tonnes of CO2 in a single eruption. But again, I don't understand what the problem is supposed to be with CO2. Whether introduced by humans or nature, it isn't a problem at such incredibly low concentrations--even 10 times current concentrations.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> I've read that Mt. Pinatubo blew off 50 million tonnes of CO2 in a single eruption.


This number is consistent with what I said -- the volcanic event claim is not true. Do you have a link? The writer hopefully refers to a primary source that can be scrutinized.


----------



## Macfury

Here is an article and some USGS charts embedded in it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...-co2-does-a-single-volcano-emit/#654829185cbf


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Here is an article and some USGS charts embedded in it:
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...-co2-does-a-single-volcano-emit/#654829185cbf


Thanks.


----------



## Beej

A good old fashioned English versus French dustup. 

This guy has ridiculously awkward body language and facial expressions, and says, "aboot", but the video is a fun look at how differently English and French Canadians think about language.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJQ5HUUbONs[/ame]


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> I would like to see the numbers behind this claim for a single volcanic event, such as the current Hawaii situation, offsetting all global reductions in a year. I think this is not true.


My intent was not to imply that a single event _always_ offsets global reductions. In the case of some of the largest eruptions, yes. However, volcanic CO2 outgassing is still a highly inaccurate science. It took me some time to find this article from 2013 in my bookmarks:

Another known unknown – volcanic outgassing of CO2



> The exhalations of our planet can be spectacularly obvious. The fireworks, though, are only part of the picture. We now know that the CO2 released during volcanic eruptions is almost insignificant compared with what happens after the camera crews get bored. The emissions that really matter are concealed. The silent, silvery plumes which are currently winding their way skyward above the 150 or so active volcanoes on our planet also carry with them the bulk of its carbon dioxide. Their coughing fits might catch the eye — but in between tantrums, *the steady breathing of volcanoes quietly sheds upwards of a quarter of a billion tons of CO2 every year.*


Bold mine.

There is another paper, on the CUNY website, that's a bit all over the place. The paragraph immediately below Figure 5 notes this:



> Volcanoes release up to 130 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere each year (USGS, 2010). It is averaged out that volcanism, per year, contributes anywhere between 65-319 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere (EIA, 2011). One volcanic eruption has the opportunity to outgas as much carbon dioxide in one day than 250 years of anthropogenic activity (Primer, 2010). The United States Geological Survey stated that ” Our studies here at Kilauea show that the eruption discharges between 8,000 and 30,000 metric tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere each day” (USGS, 2007). The eruptions of the supervolcano Toba in Sumatra 75,000 years ago released up to 250 ppm of carbon dioxide on five different outgassing events (Krulwich, 2012).


Some of those statements contradict each other, either confirming the difficulty of accurate measurements or merely poor or dated research. In addition, I looked for the Primer, 2010 reference in the bibliography, wasn't there. Checked online using the search terms (Primer, 2010 volcano) & came up empty. I would have liked to read that one.

Either way, in any given year, there is a tremendous amount of CO2 being emitted into the atmosphere from volcanoes.


----------



## SINC

Yep, time to rethink the blunder.

GOLDSTEIN: Trudeau and Co. losing the fight on carbon taxes | Toronto Sun


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Yep, time to rethink the blunder.


Good read.

Have to disagree with one observation:



> While the Canadian intelligentsia mock the public for holding these seemingly contradictory views, the reality is the public’s skepticism about carbon pricing is justified.
> 
> That’s because no government in Canada has instituted the most effective, open and transparent form of carbon pricing — *a 100%, revenue neutral carbon tax in which all the money is returned to the public in broad-based income tax cuts* — verified by the federal and provincial auditors general.


Bold mine.

Ain't no such thing as a "revenue neutral" tax of any kind. It always costs money to administrate and, in the face of high wages, benefits, retirement plans & well-known gov't inefficiency at all levels, the precept of a "revenue neutral" model is nothing more than a farce.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Ain't no such thing as a "revenue neutral" tax of any kind. It always costs money to administrate and, in the face of high wages, benefits, retirement plans & well-known gov't inefficiency at all levels, the precept of a "revenue neutral" model is nothing more than a farce.


They would just raise other taxes, user fees, sales taxes, etc. and still show that the carbon tax had been "deducted" from the total to prove it was revenue neutral. It's a worthless construct.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> It's a worthless construct.


I'm sorry. Is that secret code for pure, unadulterated BS? :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Remember Bev Oda's $16 OJ?

That ain't nuttin'.

I’ll see your $16 orange juice and raise you $548 for coffee



> That is some coffee service!
> 
> According to a proactive disclosure, staffers in Justin Trudeau’s PMO spent $548.39 for coffee in a single day this year. And there were only six of them!
> 
> Forget Bev Oda’s $16 for orange juice in London, England. This was $548.39 for coffee in London, Ontario.
> 
> That works out to $91.40 per person.


More:

How do Liberals spend $548 on coffee for 6? Try real hard!



> Justin Trudeau keeps telling us that he and his team are about the middle class and those working hard to join it. Well most middle class Canadians have no idea how or why coffee for 6 of Trudeau’s staffers should cost $548.39.


More:



> *The bottom line is that this is a government that claims to be about the middle class. Well middle class Canadians don’t spend $91.40 per person on a coffee service on top of the breakfast, lunch and dinner we would all be paying for.*


Yeah, my bold.


----------



## FeXL

I got no love for Jasen Kenney but my opinion of him just dropped: You never apologize for hitting the nail on the head.

Kenney apologizes for personal attack on PM Trudeau



> Alberta United Conservative Leader Jason Kenney says he regrets personally attacking Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and is apologizing for doing so.
> 
> Last week Kenney called Trudeau "empty," having "the political depth of a finger bowl," and incapable of digesting "a briefing note longer than a cocktail napkin," in the Calgary Sun.


----------



## Macfury

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. It may simply be like a court case when someone blurts out something deliberately and then the judge orders the jury to ignore what they just heard. It may simply be a perfunctory apology. 



FeXL said:


> I got no love for Jasen Kenney but my opinion of him just dropped: You never apologize for hitting the nail on the head.
> 
> Kenney apologizes for personal attack on PM Trudeau


----------



## FeXL

Further on the above.

Kenney's Trudeau remarks? They sound about right



> Maybe Jason Kenney has good reason to walk back criticism he made of Justin Trudeau as an “empty trust-fund millionaire” who hasn’t got the intellectual depth to handle the prime minister’s job. Maybe Kenney truly is interested in civilizing political discourse and, whether he believes what he said 10 days ago, now regrets levelling the harsh condemnation.
> 
> _*But I have no reason to do the same.*_


Emphasis mine.

In 100% agreement, Lorne.

More:



> Kenney’s initial profile of the PM was bang on.


Yeppers...


----------



## SINC

BC's Premier is one mixed up guy.


----------



## FeXL

And out comes the chequebook for the survivors...

Coalition forces in Syria, Iraq targeted three Canadians, secret document says



> Three Canadians were deliberately targeted by the coalition conducting airstrikes against the so-called Islamic State, according to a secret government document on the military’s role in the killing of its own citizens.
> 
> The Canadians were targets of Operation Inherent Resolve, the U.S.-led anti-ISIS campaign in Iraq and Syria that Canada participates in, said the briefing note prepared for the Chief of Defence Staff, General Jonathan Vance.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

That good old Conservative sense of entitlement is alive and well. 



> Political conservatives had a reputation for keeping the government books in good shape and being effective managers.
> 
> Used to. Not now.
> 
> Canadians who are a little older or wiser might remember premiers like Alberta’s Peter Lougheed or Ontario’s Bill Davis. They kept a close eye on economic performance and would tweak government policies to encourage growth. They keep the books in order. And they could be persuaded to support universal social programs to help everyone with affordability.
> 
> Conservative Prime Minister John Diefenbaker even teamed up with Saskatchewan NDP Premier Tommy Douglas to create national free hospital insurance, the first phase of universal health care.
> 
> Those leaders are gone, replaced by recklessness—as shown in a recently published analysis by Don Drummond, a former chair of the TD Bank.
> 
> Drummond’s analysis shows the Ontario Doug Ford Party, formerly the PC Party of Ontario, would increase the deficit and debt more than any of the three main parties. And while no party is as hawkish as Drummond would like, he finds the NDP’s plan would add the least debt.
> 
> It’s “not clear how the Conservatives’ plan adds up, if indeed it does,” writes Drummond. Ford “would increase rather than eliminate the deficit,” he adds, estimating a DFP government would add $2.1 billion to the deficit.
> 
> And the Doug Ford Party doesn’t seem to care.
> 
> The DFP cares so little it doesn’t even have a financial plan. It’s all funny-money magic. DFP leader Doug Ford promises to give away billions in free money while increasing spending. He says his big tax cut for wealthy people won’t hurt health care. And somehow the budget will balance itself. He’s selling swampland, folks.
> 
> Problem is, instead of being focused on people, conservative party factions are engaged in ideological wars. Managing reality doesn’t fit the frame.
> 
> Generally, there’s two factions. There’s libertarian conservatives, who support a woman’s right to choose—as long as there’s private, two-tier health care. And there’s social conservatives, who support free universal health care—as long as there’s no funding for abortions.
> 
> Federally, the social conservative faction is represented by Conservative leader Andrew Scheer. The libertarian wing is led by Scheer’s runner-up, Maxime Bernier—who’s been sniping at Scheer.
> 
> In Alberta, UCP Leader Jason Kenney tries to agree with both sides and avoid taking stands. He’s promoting a $1 billion income tax cut to be shared among Albertans earning over $109,000—nothing for anyone else. That will hurt health care. And Kenney recently walked out of a vote on a bill protecting women from harassment by aggressive anti-abortion activists.
> 
> In Ontario, there’s a third faction—a wheeler-dealer backroom operative faction focused on helping friends, rules be damned. Just last week Ontarians heard Doug Ford, in a recording, saying what appears to be questionable comments that may break party rules to help a friend win a nomination.
> 
> I can tell you absolutely from my years of political involvement that if an NDP Leader tried such a thing, grassroots members would be in instant open revolt.
> 
> But the response from the PC party was crickets. Because there is no PC party. There’s a Doug Ford party. Several candidates have already step down, including one linked to the theft of highway 407 data, and 29 others are under a cloud of suspicion. Not a peep.
> 
> PC party voters have no home.


http://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...-have-become-the-party-of-fiscal-recklessness


----------



## Macfury

Tom Parkin, the Sun's token progressive speaks out! The column is mess--Bill Davis was responsible for reckless spending and the Diefenbaker/Douglas health care plan continues to bankrupt the country. I suspect Parkin would say anything to see a regurgitation of the Rae government.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Tom Parkin, the Sun's token progressive speaks out!


Leave it to Freddie to post a link to an article (by a Prog) so full of holes you could use it for the Canadian border.

Hey, Freddie, let's look at a few of these little gems, shall we?



> Political conservatives had a reputation for keeping the government books in good shape and being effective managers.
> 
> Used to. Not now.


So, the thrust here is that conservatives are no longer fiscally conservative and that's a Bad Thing. No comment on the hundreds of billions of dollars of debt & deficit that the Libs & Commies at all levels have imposed upon Canadians, because that's a Good Thing.



> Those leaders are gone, replaced by recklessness


Like, say, Red Rachel? Wynne? Horgan? Some other bastion of conservative fiscal policy?



> Drummond’s analysis shows the Ontario Doug Ford Party, formerly the PC Party of Ontario, would increase the deficit and debt more than any of the three main parties. And while no party is as hawkish as Drummond would like, he finds the NDP’s plan would add the least debt.


Right. 'Cause every political party, especially the Libs & Commies, are truthful & honest about how much debt they're going to build. Anybody recall Red Rachel campaigning on a $100 billion debt & deficit? Me, neither...



> The DFP cares so little it doesn’t even have a financial plan. It’s all funny-money magic.
> 
> ...
> 
> And somehow the budget will balance itself. He’s selling swampland, folks.


Curious. Where was Parkin's criticism of The Hairdo's identical magical economic policy?



> Problem is, instead of being focused on people, conservative party factions are engaged in ideological wars.


And the Libs & the Commies have never done such a nasty thing. Nope. No Way. Nosiree Bob.



> And Kenney recently walked out of a vote on a bill protecting women from harassment by aggressive anti-abortion activists.


Why should one special interest group get special protection over anybody else? Where's the bill protecting gun owners from aggressive gun control advocates? Suck it up, princesses. You take a stand, you take your lumps. Just like everybody else.



> I can tell you absolutely from my years of political involvement that if an NDP Leader tried such a thing, grassroots members would be in instant open revolt.


Horse$h!t. First of all, a call to authority, a logical fallacy. Second, the NDP are merely thankful to have a candidate.



> PC party voters have no home.


Oh, but they do. It's on the corner of "Not Wynne" avenue & "Fuggetabout The NDP" boulevard...


----------



## CubaMark

*This is insane.*

*Canada to spend $4.5 billion to buy Trans Mountain pipeline* | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

It's insane and unnecessary. The worst of every world.



CubaMark said:


> *This is insane.*
> 
> *Canada to spend $4.5 billion to buy Trans Mountain pipeline* | Financial Post


----------



## wonderings

CubaMark said:


> *This is insane.*
> 
> *Canada to spend $4.5 billion to buy Trans Mountain pipeline* | Financial Post


if they say it will cost 4.5 billion you can expect it to be at least double that. The government needs to stay out of business. They do it horribly and have do not care about losing OUR money.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *This is insane.*
> 
> *Canada to spend $4.5 billion to buy Trans Mountain pipeline* | Financial Post


YIKES!

Somehow this has Petrocan whirling around in my head. 

What I do know is that if there is a way to lose money investing in oil a Liberal government will track it down and exploit it fully, with a relentless determination that should be devoted to hanging crooked politicians.


----------



## SINC

There is a way to build it. Put RCMP and the military at the construction site along with a JP. Arrest any protestor on the spot and have the JP give them 90 days in jail beginning on the spot. Once the word gets out they would stay away.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further:

Shiny Pony Pipelines, Inc.

Unfukcingbelievable.

Only a Liberal gov't could be this stupid.

Congratulations, Juthdin. You've hit a new low.

Congratulations, all of you who voted for this idiot.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> There is a way to build it. Put RCMP and the military at the construction site along with. jP. Arrest any protestor on the spot and gave the JP give them 90 days in jail beginning on the spot. Once the word gets out they would stay away.


Easier yet just freeze any George Soros Canadian bank accounts. He more often than not finances these protests. If the signs aren't hand lettered and many are identical, it's a good bet there's Soros cash involved.

That said when you throttle protests you destroy the very foundations of a free society. It may make sense at a casual glance, but overall if you threaten one human right then all are at extreme risk.

Given the Mounties proven bad judgement, your suggestion could easily degenerate into the Rockefeller solution to the Ludlow mine strike.


----------



## FeXL

More:

Only In Canada Would We Pay $4.5 Billion For Something That Could Have Been Free



> The investment is a bold move by the federal Liberals. *The decision will be wildly popular in Alberta.* The Liberals are unlikely to improve upon the four seats they won in Alberta in 2015. However, this investment may prevent the Liberals from being wiped off the electoral map in Alberta next year.


No it won't. Not by anyone with enough brainpower to melt the snow on their forehead.

More:



> In the most charitable terms, it can be said that Rachel Notley has evolved on pipelines.


No, she hasn't. It's all a ploy to get re-elected. Get a grip.

Related:

Alberta’s business and political leaders applaud federal government pipeline purchase



> Business leaders in Sherwood Park, the launch point for Kinder Morgan’s Trans Mountain pipeline, rejoiced after the Canadian government announced Tuesday morning it will buy the pipeline from the oil giant.
> 
> “This is Ground Zero here, so obviously more volume means more production and more production means more jobs and more revenues for tax coffers municipally, provincially, federally,” said Todd Banks, executive director of the Chamber of Commerce in Sherwood Park, east of Edmonton.


Idiots. As bad as Ontariowe. Getting bought with their own money.

The gov't has no business being in business. Period.

More:



> Aaron Wudrick, federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, said the pipeline will wind up costing taxpayers at least $12 billion once construction costs are factored in. He said the government’s past bailouts of Bombardier and automakers would indicate taxpayers will not see a return on the investment.


Nails it.

Idiots all, from the front of this Charlie Foxtrot all the way to the back.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

That's a pathetic meme, Freddie. Conservatives wanted the pipeline to be built by private enterprise--which had already set aside funding to build the pipeline. And yes, it is an attempt to buy votes.


----------



## Beej

On the pipeline: the decision does not directly address the problem, but could have been worse. The range of outcomes was clearly implementing federal jurisdiction to letting a province override jurisdiction. We're still in that range.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> .... it is an attempt to buy votes.


From who? Doesn't look like anyone on the Right or the Left likes this development.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> From who? Doesn't look like anyone on the Right or the Left likes this development.


An _attempt _to buy them. I think they're shocked at the reaction.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> An _attempt _to buy them. I think they're shocked at the reaction.


This isn’t the first time the feds have stepped in...can you say Syncrude! The issue I see is that the Feds have less than a sterling record with project management...can you say Phoenix.

What I find curious is that the Feds killed Northerngateway and Energy East as well as banning oil shipments via freighter in B.C. This putting all your eggs in one basket I find curious and am suspicious of. There are a number of shipment options that were and still are available but this one seems to be the anointed..... I feel something is amiss here.

It also has become more of a political issue than I think it needed to be. Trudeau pandering to the indigenous peoples ( I sort of hate that title can’t we all be Canadians here ) then, shock of shocks, they submarine him. Now we have a three sided shooting war. This bothers me more than anything else. The Feds will ram this through to save face and, when that has happened they ignore red flags.

I don’t mind the investment, it’s the investors that bother me.


----------



## eMacMan

Pipelines can be tricky to build. When the owner is building it with the intent to operate it there is a vested interest in doing the job right. 

OTOH when the feds buy it I wonder how closely components and welds will be inspected, or will corners will be cut during manufacturing and construction to maximize profits?


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> The Feds will ram this through to save face...


I'm not convinced. Juthdin has nothing to lose in Albertistan so he can pretty much do anything he wants here with, let's face it, impunity.

OTOH, there are many Liberal voters in BC, both first immigrants & not, that he can't afford to alienate by pushing through the pipeline. Which, I believe, is why he didn't run roughshod over the process in the _first_ place

If he actually goes ahead with this, I see it as a lose/lose for the federal Liberals. To my great dismay, as you can well imagine.

Instead, I see him fornicating the canine on this until post-election, then dropping it like third grade French.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Your tax $$ at work...

Canada is paying for signs in Ghana that tell people not to sh*t on the beach. This is not a good use of our tax dollars


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Your tax $$ at work...
> 
> Canada is paying for signs in Ghana that tell people not to sh*t on the beach. This is not a good use of our tax dollars


Great! Good to see Canada doing its part to assist developing nations in promoting public health, in cooperation with UNICEF. 

Man, how bigoted do you have to be to get your knickers in a twist over a *sign*?


----------



## FeXL

Dunno. You'd have to ask a bigot...



CubaMark said:


> Man, how bigoted do you have to be to get your knickers in a twist over a *sign*?


----------



## 18m2

I read where the $4.5B is just for the existing infrastructure and does not include the cost to build the new line. Can't provide verification but this whole deal is sketchy.

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2018/05/29/Canada-Dirty-Pipeline-Bailout/


----------



## FeXL

The #TransTrudeau Pipeline



> Did Trudeau just spend $4.5 billion of taxpayer’s dollars NOT to build a pipeline?


Like I said...

Comments prescient.


----------



## 18m2

Would this be a good time to buy KM stock now that they’ve dumped a financial turd on the Canadian government? It’s going up today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Looks good on the dummies (also the minority) who oppose this pipeline.

Vancouver to pay Kinder Morgan for legal costs after B.C.’s top court hands company twin victories | Financial Post


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Make no mistake, Cheech... 



> ...those TrueDope chickens WILL be coming home to roost...or, more likely, "rest in pieces"...
> 
> _Some 22.3 percent of fatally injured motorists who were tested for drugs tested positive for marijuana in 2016, a figure that researchers say has "increased substantially" in recent years as states have legalized the drug for recreational or medicinal use, according to a new report._​


More:



> _"Margaret Trudeau, who suffers from bipolar disorder, spoke openly with reporters about her experience with depression and the effect of her long-term marijuana use.
> 
> "Marijuana can trigger sychosis," said Trudeau. "Every time I was hospitalized it was preceded by heavy use of marijuana."_​


Even his mom knew...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Wait. I thought Juthdin was s'pose ta be the boxer... 

Trump tariffs on U.S allies draw retaliation threats



> The Trump administration delivered a gut punch to America's closest allies Thursday, imposing tariffs on steel and aluminum from Europe, Mexico and Canada in a move that drew immediate vows of retaliation.


Gotta luv our supreme leader's Free Trade negotiating ability...

But, _but_, we're gonna show Trump!:

Inflatable boats, felt pens and beer kegs: Here's what Canada targeted with tariffs, and why



> *From inflatable boats to ketchup to felt-tip pens*, we tried to make sense of the weirder American products facing punishment from Canadians.


Bold mine.

I feel better already...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Related:

U.S. State Dept: Canadian laws are threatening religious freedom



> U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo released a report on international religious freedom on Tuesday that includes Canada’s battles over freedom of conscience and parental rights as concerning international incidents.


----------



## CubaMark

Remember how earlier I noted that the Kinder Morgan purchase was _*insane*_?

I've changed my mind.

*It's goddamn treasonous.*


----------



## Macfury

Yes--the price was only for the existing assets--that's only one of the reasons why I was so furious.



CubaMark said:


> Remember how earlier I noted that the Kinder Morgan purchase was _*insane*_?


----------



## FeXL

Can't think of a better time to spread an extra heavy layer of bull$h!t on the fields...

Be nice & don’t spread manure: Canadian farmers asked to avoid smelly fertilizer during G7



> Farmers in Charlevoix, Quebec were urged not to spread smelly fertilizer before the G7 summit in order to protect high-ranking guests from an unpleasant odor, according to media reports. The move may jeopardize crops, however.
> 
> The call for farmers to avoid spreading manure on their fields came ahead of the G7 summit, which will take place in Charlevoix on June 8-9. The request was reportedly received by Quebec's Agriculture Ministry and forwarded to the local farming association, AFP reported, citing the letter. The story was initially published by a local agricultural newspaper, La Terre de Chez Nous.


Wait! The Progs told me that only synthetic fertilizers were used...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

I fully agree. 

It's important that Progs put on full display their hypocrisy, narcissism & past history so the rest of us never forget.

Trudeau Says It Is ‘Deeply Reassuring’ Obama Is Passing On The Progressive Values Torch



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau responded to former President Obama’s call on him to take up the torch of progressive values in leadership in an interview with NBC’s Chuck Todd Sunday.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Can't think of a better time to spread an extra heavy layer of bull$h!t on the fields...
> 
> Be nice & don’t spread manure: Canadian farmers asked to avoid smelly fertilizer during G7
> 
> 
> 
> Wait! The Progs told me that only synthetic fertilizers were used...


Seems to me the farmers are the ones who need protection from foul odours.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau questioned in House of Commons about bonuses for pipeline executives



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau boasted on Monday about achieving what Stephen Harper could never deliver as the Liberal government's right and left-leaning opponents pressed him in the House of Commons to explain why a Texas energy giant used a government “bailout” as a platform for $3 million in bonuses for its executives.
> 
> Trudeau made the comments during a testy exchange with Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer who questioned the prime minister about details uncovered last week in a report by National Observer about the fine print of the government’s $4.5 billion offer to buy Kinder Morgan’s Trans Mountain pipeline system and its proposed oil and tanker expansion project on the west coast.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau says U.S. steel tariffs on national security grounds are insulting



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says it is "insulting" that U.S. President Donald Trump says Canada's steel industry poses a national security risk to the United States.
> 
> Speaking on NBC's Sunday morning news show Meet the Press, Trudeau said he wants to make sure Americans, and more specifically Trump supporters, hear the message that they are going to feel financial strain and pain from the steel tariffs Trump imposed on Canada last week.


More:



> But, Trudeau said, the idea the Americans would even muse that its closest friend and ally could be a security threat is ridiculous.


The iron...

Related:

 Justin Trudeau is Not a 14 Year Old School Girl...
...but I can forgive anyone who makes that mistake!



> It really is all about you, isn't it Justin? Just for a moment, try to imagine the concept of what might go into a nation's national security. Vital natural resources? Infrastructure to feed and defend one's populace? The steel industry is crucial to a nation's defense. Hard to make guns, tanks and battleships without it. From a strategic standpoint, if the volume of imported steel were to rise to the point where it was no longer possible for steel manufactures to maintain a profit, they would go out of business. At that point a nation would be totally dependent on imports to maintain the economy and for the public defense.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s inaction on the border crisis costs you plenty

Let's cut to the chase:



> This year that figure will be between $1.2 and $1.6 billion. That doesn’t include building the refugee camp or establishing the “welcome centre” in Cornwall. It doesn’t include the cost of sending 800 plus border agents from Toronto to the Quebec region to deal with this.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

MPs slam tense committee meeting with McKenna: ‘It was the worst’



> Several MPs say Environment Minister Catherine McKenna’s appearance before the House environment committee Tuesday was one of the most tense meetings they’ve ever attended.
> 
> “I have never, in my 12 years here on Parliament Hill, seen such a partisan presentation from a minister,” said Conservative MP Ed Fast.
> 
> “This should be an embarrassment to her.”
> 
> NDP MP Alexandre Boulerice echoed that sentiment.
> 
> “There was a lot of tension today. I [have] rarely [seen] that kind of attack back and forth,” he said.
> 
> “ I think in my last seven years, it was the worst.”


Good ol' Climate Barbie...

More:



> “*She clearly does not know her facts. I would advise that she check her facts before coming to us in regards to our facts*,” Kusie said. “In my brief time here on the Hill, the 16 months since I’ve been elected, I would say that this was the most confrontational partisan, biased presentation I’ve seen by a minister to date.”


M'bold.

Understatement of the year. Any idiot who thinks that CO2 is pollution...


----------



## Macfury

It's one of the few areas in which I agree with Trudeau, in that Canada is a reliable supplier to the US for strategic security purposes.



FeXL said:


> Trudeau says U.S. steel tariffs on national security grounds are insulting


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Sleeping bags and rucksacks... they're basic pieces of equipment but the CAF doesn't have enough. CTV News has learned the Cdn military has issued a Forces wide order demanding troops turn them overs so they can be redistributed to operational units & those training

I find it extremely ironic a few posts down that MEC offers their services to find a solution. They do know the Canadian military uses firearms, yes?

Hypocrites...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, here's a rhetorical question...

How insanely stupid is Justin Trudeau’s team?



> I can’t underscore this enough, leaking an embarrassing story about the president that you are negotiating a trade deal with is stupid. Especially a president often described as having a thin skin when it comes to his public image.
> 
> But leaking that embarrassing story to the reporter and network he hates the most is without a doubt the dumbest thing I have seen this, or any government, do.
> 
> Canada is trying to deal with tariffs brought about by the Trump administration. We are about to host Trump as part of the G7. Why on earth would Trudeau’s team leak details of a phone call to CNN’s Jim Acosta.
> 
> Yet that is clearly what happened.


Hell, have a look at the world class team & get your answer:

Say hello to the most elite Canadian negotiating team ever assembled for NAFTA. Your move Mr. Trump.

Shakin' in his boots, Trump is...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Who is that in the background? The Kids In The Hall?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

We are so screwed...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

'Serious unintended consequences': Climate change policies to cost oilpatch $25 billion over 10 years



> The Canadian oil and gas industry estimates it will pay $25 billion over the next 10 years to comply with federal and provincial climate change policies and is asking the federal and provincial governments to reconsider a few “duplicative” regulations.
> 
> In a report released Tuesday, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers says the country’s new emissions regulations are driving up costs for domestic oil and gas producers, which is causing investment to leave the country for jurisdictions that are doing less to reduce emissions.
> 
> CAPP puts the cost to the industry at $25 billion for the next 10 years and its report said the regulations are having “serious unintended consequences” for the industry and jobs.


$25 billion on a non-existant problem.

Just shaking my head...


----------



## CubaMark

*Don't give us any ideas, Donnie....*

*Trump, Trudeau had a testy phone exchange over steel tariffs*

Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau held a tense telephone call last month over the U.S. president's decision to slap Canada with steep tariffs on steel and aluminum.

Trump invoked the burning of the White House during the War of 1812 during the confrontational May 25 call, which was first reported by CNN and confirmed by CBC News.

Trudeau reportedly asked Trump how tariffs could be imposed on Canada on "national security" grounds. Trump reportedly responded: "Didn't you guys burn down the White House?"

It's not clear if Trump was attempting to inject humour into a discussion on a topic that could have serious economic repercussions.

British troops burned down the White House in 1814 during the War of 1812, in retaliation for an American attack on York, Ont., a British colony at the time.

(CBC)​


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2000!*

As with many so-called "feminists" on the left...

(from the Creston Valley Advance, August 14, 2000)

Is “Groping” The Same As “Grabbing”?

Comments prescient:



> _Justard can do as he pleases… claim to be a “feminist”, whatever the hell that is, while ‘handling” someone of the opposite sex, or elbowing them on the tit while screaming “get the [email protected]#k outta my way”… either way Justard can do as he pleases, he knows it and his Media enablers know it too. Gian Gomeshi was a “feminist” too… Is Justard a perv like his midget Father? Absolutely! Justard does have that Paul Bernardo “charm” and “good looks”.
> 
> ...
> 
> Sorry. I thought I could touch you because you were a local hick.
> 
> ...
> 
> He did it from the heart . And it is his entitlement. And she should be flattered .
> 
> ...
> 
> You can’t spell LIBERAL without an H, a Y, a P, an O, a C, an R, an I, a T, or an E.
> 
> Do I really need to point out that an allegation such as this would have been FRONT PAGE NEWS if it were levied against Harper during his reign? The CBC would have had him tried and convicted in hour one.
> 
> Only the most dedicated leftards and those brainwashed by Canadian media believe Trudeau’s ‘woke feminism’ is anything but a pandering lie to appeal to and manipulate gullible virtual-signal-impaired voters.
> _​


Congratulations, those of you who voted for this fraud.

Can you imagine the hue & cry from the Progs if this had been about Harper?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Don't give us any ideas, Donnie....*


Because, you know, Canada is so-o-o-o-o-o badass.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Because, you know, Canada is so-o-o-o-o-o badass.


C'mon! Didn't you see the Purple Perogy we're sending to lead the negotiating team?


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> As with many so-called "feminists" on the left...
> 
> (from the Creston Valley Advance, August 14, 2000)
> 
> Is “Groping” The Same As “Grabbing”?
> 
> Comments prescient:
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations, those of you who voted for this fraud.
> 
> Can you imagine the hue & cry from the Progs if this had been about Harper?


Excellent post.

I will be billing you for my time trying to read it.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2000!*

Further on the Groper in Chief

Shocker! Resurfaced editorial slams Justin Trudeau as a groper



> As the editorial rightly asked all those 18 years ago, “shouldn’t the son of a former prime minister be aware of the rights and wrongs that go along with public socializing?
> 
> “Didn’t he learn through his vast experiences in public life, that groping a strange young woman isn’t in the handbook of proper etiquette regardless of who she is, what her business is, or where they are.”
> 
> The prime minster, of course, would rather have attention on the G7 summit currently underway north of Quebec City.
> 
> But his office dodged queries about the specifics of the alleged incident.


Typical Prog hypocrite... XX)


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau Looks to Salvage the G-7 and His Image



> It’s set to be the most acrimonious world summit in years, with President Donald Trump facing off against six other leaders in need of a standard-bearer. *If Justin Trudeau is looking for a chance at redemption, this is it.*


M'bold.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I can't believe he said that with a straight face.

More:



> Trudeau “needs to clearly adopt a different style because he has found out, just like Macron did and just like Abe did, that *all this personal chemistry, cozying-up bromance stuff didn’t get them anywhere*,” Kirkegaard says.


M'bold.

This is the real world. We're not playing in the sandbox anymore.

Further:



> In a follow-up tweet, Trump accused Trudeau of “being so indignant” *given that Canada protects its dairy sector with high tariffs.* And just before departing for Quebec Friday, Trump tweeted that if he’s unsuccessful at “straightening out” unfair trade deals at the G-7 meeting, “we come out even better!”


M'bold.

Yeppers...

Only responsible thing for The Hairdo to do is admits he's out of his finger bowl depth, beyond the length of a cocktail napkin & resign, immediately. You can be damn sure drama school didn't prep him for negotiating international trade deals...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Growing the economy from the heart...

Canadian economy shed 31K full-time jobs in May



> The economy lost 7,500 jobs in May as a drop in full-time employment was only partially offset by an increase in part-time jobs, Statistics Canada said Friday.
> 
> The overall drop in the number of jobs came as full-time jobs fell by 31,000, offset in part by a gain of 23,600 part-time positions. The loss of jobs came as the health care and social assistance sector lost 24,000 jobs, while the manufacturing sector lost 18,000. Employment in construction fell 13,000.


Construction lost 13,000 in a month when jobs should be booming. :clap:


----------



## CubaMark

*Mulroney says he's "never seen anything" like Trump surrogates' attacks on Trudeau*

Former prime minister Brian Mulroney said today weekend attacks on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau by surrogates of U.S. President Donald Trump were unprecedented — but Canadian negotiators shouldn't let the remarks throw them off their trade strategy.

Mulroney — who was prime minister when both the original Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and the North American Free Trade Agreement were negotiated — said the Canadian side must not let static from the White House distract from the more serious business of managing the trade relationship with the U.S. and completing high-stakes negotiations on a new NAFTA accord.

"I've never seen language like this. Least of all from subordinates of the president directed at the prime minister of their greatest friend and ally," he said. "This, I've never seen before. Nor has anybody else."

Mulroney also said Trudeau's words in the closing hours of the G7 summit in Charlevoix, Que. — the ones that seemed to have sent the president into a rage — were hardly unexpected.

"All Mr. Trudeau was doing was, in a rather gentle way, articulating the position of his government, which would be the position of any Canadian government in these circumstances," he said.
(CBC)​


----------



## FeXL

HA!

Former PM Brian Mulroney predicts Trump’s anger at Trudeau will ‘dissipate’ quickly



> Mulroney, who has a personal relationship with Trump and *has been quietly advising the prime minister on how to deal with the mercurial U.S. president*, likened Trump’s weekend tirade to “serious summer squalls.”


Bold mine.

It's no damn wonder... <just shaking my head>


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2000!*

Further on the Prime Groper.

Trudeau needs to live up to his own harassment standards



> “The standard applies to everyone,” Justin Trudeau said in February.
> 
> He was speaking about dealing with claims of sexual harassment and assault by members of Parliament. He was asked specifically if the same rules applied to him and he said yes.
> 
> *Well by his own standard then, Trudeau must face investigation by the Liberal caucus.*


M'bold.

Not. Bloody. Likely.

More:



> Either he shows the same standard applies to all MPs in his party or he shows himself to be a *hypocrite* that is above the standard he holds everyone else to.


M'bold.

A hypocrite? Hell, for a Prog, that's a feature, not a bug!


----------



## SINC

No argument.

Trudeau, after bungling it on trade and pipelines, needs better advice - fast | Financial Post


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> No argument.
> 
> Trudeau, after bungling it on trade and pipelines, needs better advice - fast | Financial Post


Sinc, he doesn’t need better advisors, since he wouldn’t listen to them anyway. Take the Supply Management issue....it’s been there since 1970, it’s only purpose is to keep a large voting block happy ( and we are overpaying for it ). There is such a glut of milk protein in the world right now it should be pennies instead of dollars..( Russia is killing Europe’s prices by dumping ). But since there is a huge voting block ( many in Quebec ) the Libs and Cons are trying to look like hero’s to pander to the voters. So instead of seeing what the global best practice is, we still have the SM....Harper even stated he would subsidize the industry with the TPP. So now Trump as made his an issue and if Trudeau kills SM he will lose politically at home and has trained Trump to grab even more from tariffs. If they had only enacted when it was advised years ago to dump SM we wouldn’t be in this position......it’s not a matter of getting better advisors it’s listening to the ones you’ve had and having the conviction to act.


----------



## Macfury

I remember one of the contenders for federal Liberal leadership ran on a platform of dismantling supply management--Martha Hall Findlay. I can buy a litre of milk in New York state for 99 cents. At most stores in Ontario, it's approaching $3. 

That said, the US government subsidizes US agriculture to a massive degree. Time to end all of this on both sides of the border so a realistic price is established.



Rps said:


> Sinc, he doesn’t need better advisors, since he wouldn’t listen to them anyway. Take the Supply Management issue....it’s been there since 1970, it’s only purpose is to keep a large voting block happy ( and we are overpaying for it ). There is such a glut of milk protein in the world right now it should be pennies instead of dollars..( Russia is killing Europe’s prices by dumping ). But since there is a huge voting block ( many in Quebec ) the Libs and Cons are trying to look like hero’s to pander to the voters. So instead of seeing what the global best practice is, we still have the SM....Harper even stated he would subsidize the industry with the TPP. So now Trump as made his an issue and if Trudeau kills SM he will lose politically at home and has trained Trump to grab even more from tariffs. If they had only enacted when it was advised years ago to dump SM we wouldn’t be in this position......it’s not a matter of getting better advisors it’s listening to the ones you’ve had and having the conviction to act.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Sinc, he doesn’t need better advisors, since he wouldn’t listen to them anyway. Take the Supply Management issue....it’s been there since 1970, it’s only purpose is to keep a large voting block happy ( and we are overpaying for it ).


I agree. However, I believe it's Sock Boy's arrogance that stops him. He thinks he's a world class negotiator when all he is is a petulant kid in the sandbox with tear-streaks on his cheeks and sand down his underwear. And that world class negotiating team...seriously? What was the average age there? 220 months?

Related:

Dairy cartel hits Mad Max



> Canada has just 10,951 dairy farms in Canada. Almost half are in Quebec. The dairy farm lobby throws around more than $100 million a year to lobby politicians and that seems to buy loyalty.
> 
> So does the threat of being targeted by this special group of farmers.
> 
> Dairy, poultry and egg farmers are the only farmers protected by supply management.


Related, too:

Italy won’t ratify EU free-trade agreement with Canada, agriculture minister says



> In the 28-member European Union, Italy has the most food products with PDO and PGI labels, including *Parmigiano Reggiano cheese* and Prosciutto di Parma ham.


M'bold.

As SDA noted, cheese, again.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I remember one of the contenders for federal Liberal leadership ran on a platform of dismantling supply management--Martha Hall Findlay. I can buy a litre of milk in New York state for 99 cents. At most stores in Ontario, it's approaching $3.
> 
> That said, the US government subsidizes US agriculture to a massive degree. Time to end all of this on both sides of the border so a realistic price is established.


Last year the U.S. subsidized to the tune of 17 Billion........and 15% of the farms got 85% of the money....so it is and upward subsidy. The family farm is just a pipe dream.


----------



## FeXL

Free Trade link dump.

Canada Comments On US Trade Relations: “We Have To Prepare For The Worst”
(meme in above hilarious...)

Canadian parliament condemns Trump attacks on Trudeau

Dem rep: Trudeau 'sabotaging' trade negotiations by 'feuding' with Trump

Justin Trudeau’s childish antics won’t help on NAFTA/Trade files

Kudlow: Trudeau Betrayed Us, ‘Stabbed Us In The Back’

Response to Trump’s attack leaves little wiggle room for Trudeau
(meme above also funny)

Trudeau trash-talks Trump after summit; POTUS finishes him on Twitter, withdraws endorsement

'Fair Trade is now to be called Fool Trade': Trump rips Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the European Union from Singapore as trade spat distracts from his summit with Kim Jong-un

What Trudeau did to set Trump off. It will surprise you!

Why Trudeau doesn’t have the high ground on trade


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Watch Justin Trudeau’s False Eyebrows Malfunction During News Conference



> What kind of guy would wear false eyebrows? *A metrosexual moonbat like Justin Trudeau*:
> 
> _Justin Trudeau’s left eyebrow detached after meeting Trump — so what? These days, who doesn’t wear fake eyebrows? pic.twitter.com/EZTeYllCrH
> 
> — Mike (@Doranimated) June 10, 2018_​


M'bold.

Yeppers.

Related:

(BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)


----------



## CubaMark

Once again, FeXL trots out the fake news, from his expert, uncritical, and wholly-believable (You Betcha!) sources....

Could it be possible that he is... **gasp**.... _WRONG? _ 

*Did Justin Trudeau’s Eyebrow Fall Off at the G7 Summit?*
_A popular video clip made it appear as if the Canadian prime minister was wearing fake eyebrows at an international conference._

:lmao:


----------



## FeXL

You use Snopes as a reference and accuse me of uncritical, unbelievable thought?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



CubaMark said:


> Once again, FeXL trots out the fake news, from his expert, uncritical, and wholly-believable (You Betcha!) sources....


----------



## FeXL

Further from Eyebrow Guy & the Prime Groper.

Don’t believe Canada’s media on Me Too stories



> Next time you read, watch or hear a story about how Parliament Hill is learning to deal with sexual harassment in the Me Too era, ignore it.
> 
> Canada’s national media have proven they have selective interest in this topic.
> 
> It is now 8 days since Warren Kinsella posted the editorial from the Creston Valley Advance about Justin Trudeau groping a young reporter in 2000. It’s been a full week since my Sun colleague Mark Bonokoski published his column on Trudeau laying out the allegations in a major daily newspaper.
> 
> Since then the story has been picked up by Buzzfeed, The Sun UK, The Daily Telegraph, Breitbart and Narcity. Even the New York Times made mention of it here.
> 
> Notice that other than the Sun, these are all online or out of country media outlets. There are no newspapers outside of the Sun, no Canadian TV networks have touched this. Next to no Canadian coverage at all.


Lemme guess, CM. Snopes has a response for this, too.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> I remember one of the contenders for federal Liberal leadership ran on a platform of dismantling supply management--Martha Hall Findlay.


That's right. So did Bernier for the Conservatives. It is something we should do for domestic policy, and would also improve our free trade negotiating position. Trump isn't wrong to highlight that issue. He's wrong to impose steel tariffs outside an existing deal while it is being renegotiated.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> You use Snopes as a reference and accuse me of uncritical, unbelievable thought?


Would you care to point to anything in that Snopes article that is untrue?

Please. Go ahead. I'll wait here for you.


----------



## FeXL

Nope.

I go to Snopes about as many times a year as I go to MotherCorpse, CNN, MJ or any other lefty garbage site: zero.

I don't need any hysterical, selectively-edited, spun Prog propaganda in my life, thankyouverymuch. If Snopes is covering it, you can bet your sweet patootie they've put their spin on it.



CubaMark said:


> Would you care to point to anything in that Snopes article that is untrue?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Nope.
> 
> I go to Snopes about as many times a year as I go to MotherCorpse, CNN, MJ or any other lefty garbage site: zero.
> 
> I don't need any hysterical, selectively-edited, spun Prog propaganda in my life, thankyouverymuch. If Snopes is covering it, you can bet your sweet patootie they've put their spin on it.


Ah. 

So... no counter-argument. No facts. No authoritative sources. Just your unhinged emotional, _*no!*_ tptptptp

This exchange has summed up precisely the past 14 years that we've had to deal with you...

:-(


----------



## Macfury

The Snopes article presented no facts at all--just pointed out that the eyebrow did not completely "fall OFF" and so the photo was miscaptioned. The rest was its best guess about the nature of Trudeau's eyebrow.



CubaMark said:


> Would you care to point to anything in that Snopes article that is untrue?
> 
> Please. Go ahead. I'll wait here for you.


----------



## FeXL

There's no need.

You hold Snopes up as some beacon of truth when, in fact, a simple online search using the terms "Snopes lies" brings up a number of verifiable of examples of precisely that. And, if not outright lies, then obfuscation, bias, slant, leftist interpretation, etc., etc., etc.

It's not worth it to me to dig through mounds of Progressive BS & garbage to try & find that single, teeny-tiny grain of truth that may or may not actually be buried at the bottom of the great, steaming pile. 

Further refutation is not required.

It's like a certain little drummer boy who used to haunt these hallowed halls. After he lied once, I needed no further confirmation.

It's also like you & Clock Girl. After you cranked out your BS, made-up narrative, what little trust you may have had on these boards went right out the window. That will _never_ be recovered. Every single thing you post from now to the hereafter will be under question.

Curiously absent in all this are all _your_ counter-arguments regarding Musk's subsidy farming (to the tune of $5 billion), the alleged price parity of wind & solar, the fact that, on a price per unit of electricity basis, wind & solar are subsidized at far higher rates than fossil fuel, among a veritable plethora of other arguments of yours I've destroyed.

Interesting, no?



CubaMark said:


> So... no counter-argument.


----------



## CubaMark

Let me repeat:

_So... no counter-argument._

No facts. Just YU LIE!!!! YU LIE!!!! DON'T TALK ABOUT MY LIES!!! YU LIE!!!!!

Sadly hilarious.



FeXL said:


> It's also like you & Clock Girl. After you cranked out your BS, made-up narrative, what little trust you may have had on these boards went right out the window. That will _never_ be recovered. Every single thing you post from now to the hereafter will be under question.


My reputation vs your reputation on this board? Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with how that poll would work out... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

All you've got with SNOPES is that the eyebrow did not "fall off." Where is the proof you presented that the eyebrow was not false?



CubaMark said:


> Let me repeat:
> 
> _So... no counter-argument._
> 
> No facts. Just YU LIE!!!! YU LIE!!!! DON'T TALK ABOUT MY LIES!!! YU LIE!!!!!
> 
> Sadly hilarious.
> 
> 
> 
> My reputation vs your reputation on this board? Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with how that poll would work out... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Are you calling me a liar?



CubaMark said:


> DON'T TALK ABOUT MY LIES!!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> There's no need.
> 
> 
> 
> You hold Snopes up as some beacon of truth when, in fact, a simple online search using the terms "Snopes lies" brings up a number of verifiable of examples of precisely that. And, if not outright lies, then obfuscation, bias, slant, leftist interpretation, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not worth it to me to dig through mounds of Progressive BS & garbage to try & find that single, teeny-tiny grain of truth that may or may not actually be buried at the bottom of the great, steaming pile.
> 
> 
> 
> Further refutation is not required.
> 
> 
> 
> It's like a certain little drummer boy who used to haunt these hallowed halls. After he lied once, I needed no further confirmation.
> 
> 
> 
> It's also like you & Clock Girl. After you cranked out your BS, made-up narrative, what little trust you may have had on these boards went right out the window. That will _never_ be recovered. Every single thing you post from now to the hereafter will be under question.
> 
> 
> 
> Curiously absent in all this are all _your_ counter-arguments regarding Musk's subsidy farming (to the tune of $5 billion), the alleged price parity of wind & solar, the fact that, on a price per unit of electricity basis, wind & solar are subsidized at far higher rates than fossil fuel, among a veritable plethora of other arguments of yours I've destroyed.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, no?




You’ve destroyed nothing on these boards except in your own mind. You are not persuasive. People just grow tired of trying to explain things to you.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, you've usually MIA when it comes to explaining anything. Saying you're bored because you've lost a battle of wits seems to be your primary strategy.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You’ve destroyed nothing on these boards except in your own mind. You are not persuasive. People just grow tired of trying to explain things to you.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> You’ve destroyed nothing on these boards except in your own mind. You are not persuasive. People just grow tired of trying to explain things to you.


Good grief Frank, we're all weary of trying to help YOU understand simple math.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Are you calling me a liar?


I have in the past, when you did... and I will again, if you continue to do so.

It says something about the level of discourse in this forum that you guys get all unhinged about bad lighting and can't follow sources to the contrary because you have some kind of ideological / Pavlovian hyper-fear of clicking a link to a website that's doesn't reinforce your narrative.

Y'all are just... weird.

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Again, Snopes just guessed that it might be lighting. Their only claim was that the eyebrow did not fall OFF. What is it about your Pavlovian response to run to Snopes and then misrepresent its claims?



CubaMark said:


> I have in the past, when you did... and I will again, if you continue to do so.
> 
> It says something about the level of discourse in this forum that you guys get all unhinged about bad lighting and can't follow sources to the contrary because you have some kind of ideological / Pavlovian hyper-fear of clicking a link to a website that's doesn't reinforce your narrative.
> 
> Y'all are just... weird.
> 
> :lmao:


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Again, Snopes just guessed that it might be lighting. Their only claim was that the eyebrow did not fall OFF. What is it about your Pavlovian response to run to Snopes and then misrepresent its claims?


Wow! Talk about the Bickersons.....you guys are actually arguing over an internet photo of Trudeau’s eyebrow! Somebody needs to get out more......


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Wow! Talk about the Bickersons.....you guys are actually arguing over an internet photo of Trudeau’s eyebrow! Somebody needs to get out more......


It's not an argument about an eyebrow--though it appears CubaMark is most interested in defending the eyebrow. It's an argument about the use of sources and what those sources actually say. Snopes is not the final authority on anything, and it does not even say what CM claims it does.

And nobody knows who the Bickersons are anymore... except maybe me.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Good grief Frank, we're all weary of trying to help YOU understand simple math.




Give it up, Don. You're being deliberately obtuse.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> I have in the past, when you did... and I will again, if you continue to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> It says something about the level of discourse in this forum that you guys get all unhinged about bad lighting and can't follow sources to the contrary because you have some kind of ideological / Pavlovian hyper-fear of clicking a link to a website that's doesn't reinforce your narrative.
> 
> 
> 
> Y'all are just... weird.
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao:




Call it Confirmation Bias.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Freddie, you've usually MIA when it comes to explaining anything. Saying you're bored because you've lost a battle of wits seems to be your primary strategy.




There is no battle of wits when I argue with you. Just boring old contradiction. Sorry, but it's the truth.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, where I contradict, I follow with evidence. You simply tuck tail and run away. May be boring for you, but that's life.



Freddie_Biff said:


> There is no battle of wits when I argue with you. Just boring old contradiction. Sorry, but it's the truth.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Freddie, where I contradict, I follow with evidence. You simply tuck tail and run away. May be boring for you, but that's life.




Bad evidence does not make you more convincing. Your sources are suspect.


----------



## Macfury

Encyclopedia Britannica, Statistics Canada, the House of Commons Hansard--yep, pretty iffy sources.... you, on the other hand, use memes found on the Internet. There's a big win!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Bad evidence does not make you more convincing. Your sources are suspect.


----------



## FeXL

The iron...



Freddie_Biff said:


> People just grow tired of trying to explain things to you.


----------



## FeXL

There most certainly is not...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> There is no battle of wits when I argue with you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Good grief Frank, we're all weary of trying to help YOU understand simple math.




Hey Don: quick, what’s 8 x 5? So far the solution to this simple arithmetic has evaded you.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Freddie: quick, how many percentage points in 1.5%?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey Don: quick, what’s 8 x 5? So far the solution to this simple arithmetic has evaded you.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey Don: quick, what’s 8 x 5? So far the solution to this simple arithmetic has evaded you.


It's a five percent cut. One single and only time. No multiplication involved.

Year 1 = *5% cut*
Year 2 = 0% cut
Year 3 = 0% cut
Year 4 = 0% cut
Year 5 = 0% cut
Year 6 = 0% cut
Year 7 = 0% cut
Year 8 = 0% cut
*Total = 5% cut*


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> It's a five percent cut. One single and only time. No multiplication involved.
> 
> 
> 
> Year 1 = *5% cut*
> 
> Year 2 = 0% cut
> 
> Year 3 = 0% cut
> 
> Year 4 = 0% cut
> 
> Year 5 = 0% cut
> 
> Year 6 = 0% cut
> 
> Year 7 = 0% cut
> 
> Year 8 = 0% cut
> 
> *Total = 5% cut*




Again, you cannot do simple arithmetic. The question that was asked is what is 5 x 8, Don? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Again, you cannot do simple arithmetic. The question that was asked is what is 5 x 8, Don?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will not be party to your lack of skill in math.

Suppose you made $80,000 a year before the cut of five percent. Year one, your salary was reduced by 5% so you made $76,000.

Did you make the full $76,000 each year for the next seven years with no further reductions, or did it get cut seven more times? If it did not, it was a one time 5% cut.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I will not be party to your lack of skill in math.
> 
> 
> 
> Suppose you made $80,000 a year before the cut of five percent. Year one, your salary was reduced by 5% so you made $76,000.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you make the full $76,000 each year for the next seven years with no further reductions, or did it get cut seven more times? If it did not, it was a one time 5% cut.




A simple question. You can’t even answer it.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> A simple question. You can’t even answer it.


I am waiting for your reply to my question. It hinges on the answer to yours.


----------



## Macfury

Good grief, what a sad spectacle! SINC, you have the patience of a saint.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I am waiting for your reply to my question. It hinges on the answer to yours.




I believe I asked you first. A number of years ago, in fact. You couldn’t answer then, and you won’t answer now. Come on, Don, it’s not that hard: 5 x 8 =


----------



## FeXL

C'mon, Freddie. 

It's simple math. How many percentage points in 1.5%?

It's a simple question. You can't answer it, can you?

I know I asked you first. C'mon, Freddie: 1.5% = how many percentage points?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I believe I asked you first. A number of years ago, in fact. You couldn’t answer then, and you won’t answer now. Come on, Don, it’s not that hard: 5 x 8 =


In the kind of math I know and was taught me by teachers much more qualified than you, it is 40 in simple math.

But your use of simple math to try and exagerate your pay cut is wrong, stupid and you know it. Now answer my question. Was your pay cut by 5% every year for eight years? Or one time and left stable for the next seven years? Come on Frank, it's not that hard: One cut in year one of 5%. Then no more cuts for seven years.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> In the kind of math I know and was taught me by teachers much more qualified than you, it is 40 in simple math.
> 
> But your use of simple math to try and exagerate your pay cut is wrong, stupid and you know it. Now answer my question. Was your pay cut by 5% every year for eight years? Or one time and left stable for the next seven years? Come on Frank, it's not that hard: One cut in year one of 5%. Then no more cuts for seven years.


Very good, Don. 5 x 8 is indeed 40. Now, I know this is going to make your head spin, but the promise made by the Klein government at the time was a temporary cut of 5% for one year until the budget was balanced. THEN IT WOULD GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL AMOUNT, WHEREIN THAT PAY CUT WOULD BE RESTORED. The cut only needed to be for one year, because that was all it took to balance the books—suggesting that we were never in that much of a deficit to begin with. The pay cut, as told to us, was not to be in perpetuity. Instead, the Klein government never went back to the original amount until it was forced to through arbitration. Even then, the arbitration board settled on 14% (the ATA was asking for 28%) to make up for all of the extra wages that had been lost over eight years. So ask yourself this, genius: if 5% was all that had been cut, why did the arbitration board award a 14% increase in pay, a sort of halfway point between the government's offer (0%) and the ATA's request (28%)? Clearly these kinds of details escape you.

MY comparison was to see how much the loss over eight years would have been had it all taken place in one year instead, but I have a feeling you're already tripping over yourself to show me how wrong wrong wrong I am. I know what I experienced and I know the math the arbitration board used to come up with the figure of 14%. Anything you say is really irrelevant.


----------



## Macfury

So a 5% cut.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> So a 5% cut.


Yep, exactly that and not a single percent more. Certainly not a 40% ignorant math cut.

And if you take the orignal 5% cut from the 14% raise some eight years later, that's about one percent per year with the remaining 9%, or a more than reasonable increase for any group over those remaining seven years.


----------



## Macfury

Are you kidding SINC--that 14% raise in 2001 was a 238% raise over 17 years!! 



SINC said:


> Yep, exactly that and not a single percent more. Certainly not a 40% ignorant math cut.
> 
> And if you take the orignal 5% cut from the 14% raise some eight years later, that's about one percent per year with the remaining 9%, or a more than reasonable increase for any group over those remaining seven years.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Are you kidding SINC--that 14% raise in 2001 was a 238% raise over 17 years!!


Damn that new math sure is confusing. I can almost sympathize with Freddies Mathematical disability.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Are you kidding SINC--that 14% raise in 2001 was a 238% raise over 17 years!!


Only in the minds of the mathematically challenged, MF!


----------



## FeXL

Portend of things to come?

One hopes.

Tories take Quebec riding from Liberals in key byelection



> The Conservatives have taken the Quebec riding of Chicoutimi-Le Fjord from Justin Trudeau’s Liberals in a byelection taking place against a backdrop of a deepening trade dispute with the United States.
> 
> Conservative candidate Richard Martel took a commanding early lead and never looked back, receiving nearly 53 per cent of the votes cast, defeating Liberal Lina Boivin, who managed just 30 per cent. The NDP and Bloc Quebecois vote essentially disappeared on Monday night leaving the race as a two party contest. This is the first byelection loss of a Liberal seat since Trudeau became leader in 2013.


----------



## FeXL

QP is a joke...

Question period is supposed to be about holding the government to account. So how did it become political theatre?



> The Star’s analysis of a week’s worth of question periods shows Calandra’s brazen dodge is typical of this daily exercise. While outright lies were relatively infrequent over the course of the week, stretches of the truth and off-topic canned talking points offered as responses to serious questions were the norm.
> Article Continued Below
> 
> In our system of Westminster democracy, question period is intended to be a venue for Parliament to hold government to account and glean information the executive may not want to reveal. In Canada, “QP” is supposed to be a key part of our parliamentary democracy.
> 
> “There’s the value. Any member in the House can get up on any day without prior notice and ask a question of the government to account for a decision, a policy, a piece of legislation,” says Robert Marleau, who worked on Parliament Hill for 32 years, including 13 as Clerk of the House of Commons.
> 
> “It’s a very, very powerful tool,” he said.
> 
> “I’ve seen the House rise to the highest level of accountability, where we are dealing with serious issues and it’s quite impressive to watch. And I’ve seen it slide into the gutter, too,” Marleau said.


Interesting read.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Apparently Capt. Obvious has to explain things to Canada



> *Because any idiot, save the current PM, understands that importing tonnes of steel, throwing a rivet on it and calling it Canadian, is about as slimy as it gets when it comes to trade.* If that practice leads to the inability to make a tank, or an airplane, guess what? It’s a national security risk.
> 
> _ Asked why the Canadian steel industry poses a national security threat, Ross replied that Canada, on its own, doesn’t represent a threat.
> 
> He said the tariffs are designed to persuade allies to reduce the amount of Chinese steel that passes through their countries and then floods into the U.S._​
> The real problem for Canada is that we’ve spent thirty years touting this ‘advantage’ to every other trade bloc in the world. Trump isn’t stupid and he’s correct. What was, in good faith, agreed to in NAFTA isn’t what the reality is on the ground. What was supposed to be an integrated economy has turned into an international one-way door to flood the American market with crappy product.


Bold mine.

If anyone is wondering why the tilde is in the title, it's a droopy eyebrow.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I kill me...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, good...

Marijuana to be legal in Canada starting October 17, Trudeau confirms



> Justin Trudeau confirmed the long-awaited start date during Question Period in Ottawa, ending months of speculation surrounding when, precisely, Canadians will be able to purchase and consume the drug legally.


Still don't have a working mobile THC tester, but tha's hokay...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Hey, Priapus drivin' Piggy, where are ya? Yer tax dollars at work!!!

SSSSSSOOOOOOUUUUUUIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Bills for Trudeau's nine-day trip to India now top $1.5 million, documents show



> New documents suggest the bills for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s troubled trip to India in February exceed $1.5 million.
> 
> The latest figures released by the government include $323,000 for hotel stays, $485,070 to fly and staff the VIP Airbus for 43.7 hours over the nine-day trip, $5,235 for cell phone fees, $5,100 to buy Canadian wines for use at official events and $17,044.21 to fly Vancouver Chef Vikram Vij to India, where he cooked a dinner for a meeting and an official reception at the Canadian High Commission in New Delhi.
> 
> Conservative MPs say the lavish trip was a huge waste of money, produced virtually no return on the investment other than the embarrassment of the Prime Minister’s Office accidentally inviting to a reception a man convicted of attempting to murder an Indian politician more than 30 years ago.


Million and a half bucks so Mr. Dressup could publicly embarrass himself on the world stage for 9 days.

Cheap at twice the price... 

SOU!!!


----------



## Macfury

Priapus is still collecting stats about how the NDP is going to steamroller the Ontario election.



FeXL said:


> Hey, Priapus drivin' Piggy, where are ya? Yer tax dollars at work!!!
> 
> SSSSSSOOOOOOUUUUUUIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



Macfury said:


> Priapus is still collecting stats about how the NDP is going to steamroller the Ontario election.


Ah. Thought he just might be part of that crack free trade negotiating team of ours. He's got the mental chops for it. Wonder how he looks in purple...

Feds could have avoided U.S. tariffs on steel, aluminum



> The Americans have long complained about something called “transshipment.” That is the practice of Chinese steel being shipped to a country, such as Canada, and then re-exported, sometimes with little to no change in the product, to the United States.


As noted above.

More:



> *The Americans asked us to stop in April 2017 and we didn’t.*
> 
> “The only way we’re going to solve the global steel overproduction and overcapacity is by getting all the other countries to play ball with us,” Ross said on Wednesday.
> 
> “And while they’re complaining bitterly about the tariffs, the fact is they’re starting to take the kind of action, which, if they had taken sooner, would have prevented this crisis.”
> 
> Did you catch that?
> 
> If we had stopped this sooner, we could have avoided the tariffs.


Wait. Wha...???

Further:



> *Instead, despite a year warning, the Trudeau government didn’t move on what is dubbed country-of -origin labelling until May 30, 2018.*


Yep. Bold mine.

He was probably far too busy dealing with pressing issues like what kind of socks he should get darned or what goofy Mr Dressup costume he should don than actually dealing with minutia like international trade deals...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Once again, it's not the best person for the job, it's the best special interest group.

Liberals set hiring, procurement rules for federally-funded projects



> Cities, provinces and territories building new roads, bridges, water and transit systems funded with federal dollars will have to let Indigenous Peoples, veterans and recent immigrants have a hand in those projects under new rules being unveiled today.
> 
> The idea of so-called community benefits will be a mandatory requirement for many infrastructure projects the federal government will help pay for through its $33-billion spending envelope.
> 
> Provinces and territories will have some leeway to decide what projects are to be subject to the rules. Those projects that are will have to explain publicly how far they have come in meeting the government's goals.
> 
> Under the new guidelines, provinces, territories and cities would have to hire apprentices, Indigenous Peoples, recent immigrants, veterans, young people, people with disabilities and women, or procure goods and services from small- and medium-sized businesses or social enterprises.


And, hey, if the First Immigrants, veterans & recent immigrants are, indeed the best person for the jog, hair on 'em!

If not, then every one of these less than qualified people hired increases the odds of not getting the job completed on time or on budget.

Oh, wait. These are gov't jobs. 

Sorry...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trump-bashing Trudeau wears egg on face after report on Canada’s prison-like migrant facilities



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau eagerly climbed on the liberal bandwagon to criticize President Donald Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy on illegal immigration, which has resulted in children being separated from their parents.
> 
> A soft-spoken Trudeau assured the press that “this is not the way we do things in Canada.”
> 
> “What’s going on in the United States is wrong,” the prime minister said. “I can’t imagine what the families living through this are enduring. Obviously, this is not the way we do things in Canada.”
> 
> *No. The Canucks use “razor-wire fences” and keep illegal immigrant children under “surveillance by guards.”*


Yeth. That thensitive Juthdin.

What an embarrassment...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

“Unexpected”



> From the heart, out.
> 
> But who’s in for a trade war, eh?


Yep. Canada's economy falters while America's screams ahead.

Related:

Canada, EU and Germany Signal Compliance With President Trump Trade Demands…



> Back to Canada, and the ill-fated, now back-fired, scheme of Justin and Chrystia; standing naked and alone, as the reality of national economic interests has their former anti-Trump trade allies headed for the exits to save their industries.
> 
> Yikes, amid all of Canada’s uppity antagonism and demands for gender equity in NAFTA trade negotiations now they’re seriously exposed and more vulnerable than ever to Godzilla Trump and his “killers’. The sight of a grinning Robert Lighthizer demands another slowly savored winnamin…. delicious.
> 
> Yup, the Canadian reality is beginning to sink in.


Just. Nails. It.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Macfury

I know SINC. Complete and total lack of understanding of the issues involved, how equalization is negotiated, etc.



SINC said:


> .


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Priapus is still collecting stats about how the NDP is going to steamroller the Ontario election.


MacFury, I’ve got to think Horwath is done ... thoughts.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MacFury, I’ve got to think Horwath is done ... thoughts.


Yes. Not because she's dreadful, but because they need to try something different to break out of their limited appeal to voters.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Yes. Not because she's dreadful, but because they need to try something different to break out of their limited appeal to voters.


I think her last platform of moving the party to the right would have worked this time. But the swing to the left undid her......and as they say the captain goes down with the ship.....as much as I like her, she is a three time loser and in politics that means dun like dinna!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Brad Wall says Trudeau playing favourites with Quebec against the West



> *“There is more Western Alienation right now in Alberta and Saskatchewan,” says Brad Wall, “than I have ever seen.”*
> 
> Wall, the former Premier of Saskatchewan, is taking time out of his private life to discuss Justin Trudeau’s equalization move on my radio show. It’s a Friday night and like most Canadians, Wall would prefer to be kicking back. Instead he is fired up.
> 
> “Maybe it would have been hyperbole to say that a year and a half ago,” Wall said of claims that Trudeau is playing favourites. Now with the demise of Energy East, the killing of Northern Gateway, the special treatment of Energie Saguenay in Quebec and approval of a carbon spewing cement plant with no environmental assessment Wall said many in the West now feel there are rules for Quebec and rules for the rest.


Bold mine.

Can find nothing to argue with there.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

If only….



> There was some technology that allowed oil to travel in a much safer mode of transport.


Yep...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I know SINC. Complete and total lack of understanding of the issues involved, how equalization is negotiated, etc.




You’re absolutely right. Kenney does have a total lack of understanding of the issues involved, how equalization is negotiated, etc.


----------



## Macfury

The whole party is swinging left, federal and provincial. What do you do when an unrepentant leftist like Singh takes the helm of the federal party?

But yes, she is toast.



Rps said:


> I think her last platform of moving the party to the right would have worked this time. But the swing to the left undid her......and as they say the captain goes down with the ship.....as much as I like her, she is a three time loser and in politics that means dun like dinna!


----------



## FeXL

Ftfy...



freddie_biff said:


> you’re absolutely right. Red rachel does have a total lack of understanding of the issues involved, how equalization is negotiated, etc.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Ftfy...




Very mature. That would get you banned from a moderated forum.


----------



## FeXL

No less mature than the OP. Look in the mirror.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Very mature.


Well, fortunately, over here we're no longer living under the heavy hand of "objective" moderation.

Question: If this forum is so _distasteful_ to you, why do you continue to hang around?

Oh, right, I forgot. All the Prog-only forums have died from terminal boredom...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> That would get you banned from a moderated forum.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada’s Chief Negotiator Accidentally Reveals There Are No Active NAFTA Negotiations Happening, Freeland Says “We’ll Talk Later, But Not Here”



> A disturbing moment during a NAFTA roundtable seems to have revealed the true state of NAFTA negotiations.
> 
> While the government has been trying to put a positive spin on things, Canada’s chief NAFTA negotiator let slip what’s really happening.
> 
> The negotiator was asked, _“Do you still meet your counterparts? Do you still have committees that are working? What is the status of the…”_
> 
> At that moment, the chief negotiator responded and said _“We don’t have any active negotiations.”_
> 
> He added, _“I haven’t talked to them in a little while.”_
> 
> When asked how long it was since he’s talked to the other NAFTA negotiators, he said _“since two or three weeks. I’ll have the odd conversation, but no real engagement, no real negotiating session.”_


:yikes:

What's this? The Purple Perogy & her crack team of negotiators, average age 19.5 years, haven't had significant discourse with their international counterparts for 2-3 weeks?



I guess, like budgets & the economy, The Eyebrow expects things to fix themselves. Perhaps he's getting a new pair of socks darned for the occasion...

Ya know, if John Q Public starts paying attention to the Charlie Foxtrot this Liberal gov't really is, in a little over a year, they could be gone... :clap:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Oh, right, I forgot. All the Prog-only forums have died from boredom...
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


Those forums also died from the stultifying censorship applied by the very sort of moderation Freddie craves. Better to shut people down than to lose a battle of ideas.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

You mean, just like their trade negotiations?

And the economy?

And the budget?

And everything else they've applied their greasy paws to?

Canada’s leaders still just trying to fake it ’til they make it on climate



> Catherine McKenna has said multiple times we are going to “absolutely” meet that Harper target. Simple math says it’s impossible without major restructuring of our economy, especially our energy sector and particularly the West where 60 per cent of our emissions originate.


Climate Barbie. Who thinks that CO2 is pollution and there are no rattlesnakes in southern Alberta.

Does anything else really need be said?


----------



## FeXL

Things you won't find on MotherCorpse.

Halifax man found guilty of sex attack on hotel employee



> A man has been found guilty of sexually assaulting a Halifax hotel employee in February 2016.
> 
> Mostafa M.Y. Hussien, 30, of Halifax was also convicted Tuesday of forcibly confining the young woman in his hotel room.


More:



> The woman testified that Hussien attacked her after turning on the hot water in the tub.
> 
> She said he pressed her up against the wall and tried to kiss her before forcing her onto the bed, where he digitally penetrated her vagina and repeatedly tried to put his penis in her mouth.


She should have bit it off. No chance of being a repeat offender...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> No less mature than the OP. Look in the mirror.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, fortunately, over here we're no longer living under the heavy hand of "objective" moderation.
> 
> 
> 
> Question: If this forum is so _distasteful_ to you, why do you continue to hang around?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, right, I forgot. All the Prog-only forums have died from terminal boredom...
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:




The OP? The OP was ehMax, a much more level-headed person than you'll ever be. As for why do I hang around? It's not your forum, genius. There are people I like to converse with, but you're not one of them.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Those forums also died from the stultifying censorship applied by the very sort of moderation Freddie craves. Better to shut people down than to lose a battle of ideas.



Wrong again. Moderated forums without the arrested development shown by some members here are plentiful. This is only one of many forums I frequent and is, without question, the least mature.


----------



## FeXL

Whoosh...



Freddie_Biff said:


> The OP? The OP was ehMax...


I've personally experienced some of ehMax's "level-headedness", nothankyouverymuch.

Even he admitted on these boards that he was heavy handed.



Freddie_Biff said:


> ...a much more level-headed person than you'll ever be.


Never claimed it was. Just wondering why you'd subject yourself to all this so-called abuse.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It's not your forum, genius.


Ah, yes. Then save yourself the grief & put me on ignore, instead of continually replying to me.



Freddie_Biff said:


> There are people I like to converse with, but you're not one of them.


----------



## FeXL

HA!!!

No argument... :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> This is only one of many forums I frequent and is, without question, the least mature.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Those forums also died from the stultifying censorship applied by the very sort of moderation Freddie craves. Better to shut people down than to lose a battle of ideas.


Curious, that.

For all the championing of free speech the compassionate, intellectual, left claims, they are always the first to shut it down.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Whoosh...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've personally experienced some of ehMax's "level-headedness", nothankyouverymuch.
> 
> 
> 
> Even he admitted on these boards that he was heavy handed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never claimed it was. Just wondering why you'd subject yourself to all this so-called abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, yes. Then save yourself the grief & put me on ignore, instead of continually replying to me.




I’d ask you to do the same, because you’re obsession with wanting to talk to me is a bit much. I suspect that you won’t, of course, because you don’t like being told what to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

Most of your posts--apparently by choice--are train wrecks, Freddie. Impossible to look away, and almost as difficult not to try to offer emergency assistance.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Most of your posts--apparently by choice--are train wrecks, Freddie. Impossible to look away, and almost as difficult not to try to offer emergency assistance.




Not asking for your assistance, Macfury. Just requesting that you not be a dick so much of the time. However, you will do what comes naturally, so I’ve gotten used to it.


----------



## Macfury

It's just as we have gotten used to your content-free posts, backed by nothing but the sweet, sweet air. However, I'm not asking you to stop doing anything. I'm supporting your right to free expression, whatever form that takes.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Not asking for your assistance, Macfury. Just requesting that you not be a dick so much of the time. However, you will do what comes naturally, so I’ve gotten used to it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's just as we have gotten used to your content-free posts, backed by nothing but the sweet, sweet air. However, I'm not asking you to stop doing anything. I'm supporting your right to free expression, whatever form that takes.



For the life of me, I don't understand how you think your posts have any more content in them than mine. You just don't agree with my point of view. I substantiate what I say as much as is necessary, same as you. You've really got to get over your desire to control what other people say, and your need to be negative so much of the time.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Not asking for your assistance, Macfury. Just requesting that you not be a dick so much of the time. However, you will do what comes naturally, so I’ve gotten used to it.





Freddie_Biff said:


> For the life of me, I don't understand how you think your posts have any more content in them than mine. You just don't agree with my point of view. I substantiate what I say as much as is necessary, same as you. You've really got to get over your desire to control what other people say, and your need to be negative so much of the time.


Well, he does have less 'dick' in his posts than you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Well, he does have less 'dick' in his posts than you.



You would know.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> You would know.


WWWWWHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHH!

That was the sound of that post going right over your head.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> WWWWWHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHH!
> 
> 
> 
> That was the sound of that post going right over your head.




And you also know about head. Fascinating, Don.


----------



## SINC

Man you are one sick puppy.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Man you are one sick puppy.




You would know.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Whooooosh indeed.


----------



## CubaMark

ehMac.

[sarcasm]A Welcoming Community![/sarcasm]

If I actually had to have some of you as neighbours, I'd sell my house at a loss _(to a muslim immigrant if I could)_ and go find a place where folks can actually talk to one another, instead of at one another.

What a colossal waste of time.

XX)


----------



## Macfury

At least property values would rise!



CubaMark said:


> ehMac.
> 
> [sarcasm]A Welcoming Community![/sarcasm]
> 
> If I actually had to have some of you as neighbours, I'd sell my house at a loss _(to a muslim immigrant if I could)_ and go find a place where folks can actually talk to one another, instead of at one another.
> 
> What a colossal waste of time.
> 
> XX)


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> ehMac.
> 
> 
> 
> [sarcasm]A Welcoming Community![/sarcasm]
> 
> 
> 
> If I actually had to have some of you as neighbours, I'd sell my house at a loss _(to a muslim immigrant if I could)_ and go find a place where folks can actually talk to one another, instead of at one another.
> 
> 
> 
> What a colossal waste of time.
> 
> 
> 
> XX)




Amen.


----------



## FeXL

After seeing your complete & utter inability to read people, if I was your neighbour, I'd have your house title in one night of poker.



CubaMark said:


> If I actually had to have some of you as neighbours, I'd sell my house at a loss...


----------



## FeXL

Why, yes. Yes, you do.

Figgering on one of your average CFP's, that's absolutely zero. Precisely what we get...



Freddie_Biff said:


> I substantiate what I say as much as is necessary...


----------



## Macfury

I think these posts about how much a couple of members hate the place are one of the great amusements of EhMac. Things were so much better for them when they felt that a moderator would control others on their behalf. They're sick with anger about how much they hate the place and the rough reception their half-baked ideas receive--and then they post again, again, and still again.



FeXL said:


> After seeing your complete & utter inability to read people, if I was your neighbour, I'd have your house title in one night of poker.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I think these posts about how much a couple of members hate the place are one of the great amusements of EhMac. Things were so much better for them when they felt that a moderator would control others on their behalf. They're sick with anger about how much they hate the place and the rough reception their half-baked ideas receive--and then they post again, again, and still again.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Or... bless my buttons, Mr Activist...



> ...they could simply be committing the lions share of the crime...
> 
> _WINNIPEG — Nearly half of all youth who end up in custody across Canada are Indigenous, a statistic that a Manitoba activist says shows unacceptable and systemic racism.
> 
> Data released by Statistics Canada shows Aboriginal youth made up 46 per cent of admissions to correctional services in 2016-17 while making up only eight per cent of the youth population._​
> How about we talk about unacceptable and systemic child neglect?
> 
> _"The rate of deaths from injuries is 3 to 4 times higher for Aboriginal children than for other children in Canada."_​


Things you won't read on MotherCorpse.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Wait...If we have this alleged world class immigration & refugee screening process, how did these two dirtbags mange to get into Canuckistan in the first place?

If not there, then through customs? :yikes:

Questions, questions, questions...

U.S. border agents arrest Central American gang member entering via Canada



> A member of a violent Central American gang was taken down by U.S. border agents over the weekend shortly after entering the country via the Canadian border.
> 
> “A Peruvian national and a Mexican national were apprehended on June 23 near Averill, Vermont,” reads a press release sent out by U.S. Customs and Border Protection on Monday. “Record checks revealed that both subjects were previously deported. The Mexican national admitted to being a member of the 18th Street gang. Both individuals were processed for prosecution and removal.”


Perhaps there _is_ something to Trump's accusation that Canada presents a threat to the US...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, I can hardly wait to see what crack team The Eyebrow's bringing along for this little adventure, & how he manages to screw it up.

Seein' as the trade team is currently doing nothing, perhaps he can bring the Purple Perogy et al., along. 

Justin Trudeau heads to NATO summit on the heels of trade fallout with Donald Trump



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will head to Brussels to attend the NATO summit on July 11, and U.S. President Donald Trump has already begun berating Canada for failing to meet the alliance’s defence spending targets.
> 
> In a letter sent on June 19th, Trump criticized allies such as Canada who haven’t increased their defence spending as was promised, and cited the United States’ “growing frustration.”
> 
> He also warned that the U.S. is becoming more impatient with NATO and what Trump described as its “failure” to meet shared security agreements, which is reminiscent of the comments the president made about NAFTA before re-negotiations were launched.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What's this? Shiny Pony losing some of his lustre? In _Kaybeck_?

Canadian Prime Minister Gets Angry Reception During Quebec Visit



> Justin Trudeau was confronted twice over the weekend in the French-speaking Canadian province. A woman called him a “traitor” during a Fete Nationale holiday; the next day, someone taunted the Prime Minister for “bothering us at home” during the celebration.


More:



> A protester approached Trudeau during the Fete Nationale celebration at a Montreal Park, when Justin Trudeau greeted the locals and guests of the event on June 24. He asked him in French, “You came to speak English to us? Isn’t your party next week?” suggesting he had come to taunt Quebecers at home. Trudeau immediately fired back “I am home,” adding *“There’s no place for intolerance here,” before the Prime Minister's security staff pulled the heckler away.*


Apparently the iron of being intolerant of protestors was completely lost on Sock Boy...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What Canada really needs is an ambassador to travel around the world apologizing for the Prime Idiot & the Groper in Chief...

Liberals considering new ambassador to promote feminism around the world: Global Affairs memos



> Does Canada need an ambassador for gender equality?
> 
> According to emails, memos and various drafts of option papers obtained by Global News under access to information laws, the federal government is considering creating a new position of ambassador or special envoy to promote feminism around the world.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Media outlets reluctantly publish on Trudeau groping allegations



> It’s taken three weeks, three full weeks, but media outlets are finally starting to address the Trudeau groping allegation.
> 
> Funny how long it has taken and how each of the three new takes is very gentle when approaching the topic of the Justin Trudeau allegedly groping a woman 18 years ago. National Post did a long and wandering piece last week, the Hamilton Spectator published a column last night and this morning CBC has a column up.


MotherCorpse has an article covering Sockboy, the Prime Groper?!

:yikes:

I know! Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

We're finally told what Trudeau's carbon tax will cost us. Are you sitting down?



> Three provinces — Alberta, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia — will be hit with more than $1,000 of carbon tax per year to comply with the $50-per-tonne carbon tax Ottawa has mandated for 2022. Nova Scotia ($1,120) and Alberta ($1,111) will have the highest bills, followed by Saskatchewan ($1,032), New Brunswick ($963), Newfoundland ($859) and Prince Edward Island ($788). The average household in Ontario will pay $707 a year to comply with the carbon tax once its fully implemented.
> 
> Who gets the lowest bill? British Columbia ($603 per year), Quebec ($662) and Manitoba ($683). Simply put, households in provinces with the lowest bills will pay just a bit more than half compared to households in the hardest-hit provinces.
> 
> But it gets worse, since most experts say carbon prices must continue to increase sharply to effectively lower emissions. At $100 a tonne, for example, households in Alberta will pony up $2,223, in Saskatchewan they’ll pay $2,065 and in Nova Scotia, $2,240. In fact, at $100 a tonne, the average price for households in all provinces is well north of $1,000 per year.


Screw you, Juthdin...

The Conservatives need to pound on this come election time.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, what's the difference between a parody account making fun of politicians, & a Prog news website purveying fake news?

Why is the left allowed the Onion & the right gets theirs shut down?

What? You Mean Climate Barbie is a real person!??!



> “Who writes your tweets Minister? How do you find someone this incompetent (aka stupid)???”
> 
> That’s how businessman and former Dragon’s Den personality W. Brett Wilson began a Twitter broadside on federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna on Monday.


From the link:


#ItsReallyMeClimateBarbie


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, let's talk trade, the economy & a quick blurb about ethics at the end.

Trudeau is failing Canada on trade at every turn



> It should be headline news everywhere in Canada, there should be follow-up story upon follow-up story.
> 
> The Canada-U.S. trade talks on NAFTA are going so badly there have not been negotiations in weeks.
> 
> “We don’t have any active negotiations. I haven’t talked to them in a little while,” Canada’s chief negotiator Steve Verheul said last Friday.
> 
> The incredibly honest Verheul was being asked by members of the NAFTA advisory council how things were going. The question came in the middle of a photo op with cameras capturing it all.
> 
> “Two or three weeks,” Verheul explained when asked how long since the last talks. “I’ll have the odd conversation, but no real engagement, no real negotiation session.”
> 
> We should be shocked at such news but most of Canada’s media is too busy chasing the latest story on Donald Trump to report on what is happening here before their eyes.


Look how much foreign investment has fled Canada since the Liberals took over



> The graph shows that outflows, too, have increased steadily since 2011 and reached a record $100 billion in 2017.


Trans Mountain pipeline purchase will add $6.5 billion to federal deficit, study says



> A study by a sustainable energy research group predicts the federal government’s purchase of the Trans Mountain pipeline will add significantly to the deficit next year.
> 
> The study released Tuesday by the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis said buying the Kinder Morgan Canada assets, plus planning and construction costs, will put $6.5 billion in unplanned spending on the books for the 2018-19 fiscal year.


What a federal ethics report reveals about how Justin Trudeau sees his job as PM



> The prime minister doesn’t have business meetings. He has relationship sessions.
> 
> That’s the view Justin Trudeau outlined to the ethics commissioner during her probe of Trudeau’s family vacations to the Aga Khan’s private island, which ended with Mary Dawson finding the prime minister violated four parts of the conflict of interest act.
> 
> But her report also offers a glimpse into how Trudeau views the job as prime minister and how that shapes the inner workings of his government.
> 
> *Some prime ministers view themselves as a CEO who set ideas and are the face of the government, leaving the heavy lifting to their ministers or senior civil servants.* Others consider themselves the CEO types who are more involved in the day-to-day operations.
> 
> *Experts say Dawson’s report points to the former model for Trudeau.*


M'bold.

Yep. Dealing with the day to day tedium of running a country is, like, really boring, man. He'd rather just curl up on the couch in his red plaid pajamas, buy some insurance, roll up a fatty, let the budget balance itself, let the economy grow from the heart outwards & not worry about year old trade war warnings with the US. All while admiring the basic Chinese dictatorship & wistfully recalling the good old days when he could grope a female reporter with impunity. Sigh...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk the Carbon Farce s'more.

Liberals' carbon tax racket is coming to an end

Elaborating on a point I made not long ago about Moe, Ford & Kenney telling The Eyebrow to get stuffed.


----------



## FeXL

Harper doesn't need permission to visit the WH.

Harper blindsides Trudeau PMO, plans visit to White House



> Former prime minister Stephen Harper is planning a trip to the White House next week, and hasn’t notified the current Canadian government of his visit, CTV News has learned.
> 
> According to emails obtained by CTV News, American officials are expecting Harper to visit D.C. on July 2, the day after Canada’s retaliatory tariffs on imports of U.S. goods and American-made steel and aluminum are set to come into effect.
> 
> It is unclear what the purpose of Harper's visit is, and how long it has been in the works, but officials say he is planning to meet with American National Security Advisor John Bolton, who was the U.S. ambassador to the UN when Harper was prime minister.
> 
> In planning his visit, the former prime minister has effectively blindsided the current Canadian government, bucking convention by not notifying Prime Minister Justin Trudeau or his office about the visit. Harper also did not reach out to the Canadian embassy in D.C., Global Affairs Canada, or the Privy Council Office.


I jes' luvs it when the Liberal fart catchers become offended: "Blindsided!!!" "Bucking convention!!!" "Raised eyebrows!!!"

Speaking of which, Sockboy could use a little more of that last one.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I kill me...


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> Harper doesn't need permission to visit the WH.
> 
> Harper blindsides Trudeau PMO, plans visit to White House
> 
> 
> 
> I jes' luvs it when the Liberal fart catchers become offended: "Blindsided!!!" "Bucking convention!!!" "Raised eyebrows!!!"
> 
> Speaking of which, Sockboy could use a little more of that last one.
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> I kill me...


Not sure why anyone in the government would be shocked or use words like "blindsided". Harper cannot make any deals for Canada, he is not in a position to do anything really so why would anyone in government care? Could simply be they were friendly when Harper was in office and now he is visiting him. Must be a slow news day.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> Not sure why anyone in the government would be shocked or use words like "blindsided". Harper cannot make any deals for Canada, he is not in a position to do anything really so why would anyone in government care? Could simply be they were friendly when Harper was in office and now he is visiting him. Must be a slow news day.


Agreed.

I guess none of them want to touch the Prime Groper story.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Speaking of which...

It’s Groping…I Mean Growing….



> They may not like to write about it, they may reluctantly do it, but slowly more outlets are covering the Trudeau groping story. Finally.


From the link inside:

Trudeau groping allegations, from a whisper to a scream



> It is truly shocking that it took this long but slowly, Canada’s establishment media is starting to admit they must ask questions about Justin Trudeau and those groping allegations.
> 
> Belatedly we have seen columns from, in order, the Hamilton Spectator, CBC Opinion, Macleans and National Post.
> 
> I have yet to see the Toronto Star publish on this. The Globe and Mail, currently busy taking down a winemaker on similar claims has yet to publish on this front as well. As for broadcasters like CTV, Global and CBC – nothing.
> 
> Well actually, to be fair, the issue was discussed briefly on CTV’s Power Play with host Don Martin.
> 
> Yet why did it take 21 days after the original post was made to reach what could almost be described as critical mass?


Curious none of the Progs on these boards calling for his head, like they would if it was Harper or Ford or Scheer. Can you imagine the hue & cry?

Hypocrites, much?

Comments from the first link _very_ relevant.

Related:

Media wedded to Liberal dogma, Tory MP says



> In a series of tweets Tuesday, Conservative MP Michelle Rempel accused the Toronto Star and other media of unfairly labeling her party “Trump North” and of falsely accusing Conservatives “of spreading fake news, because we question Liberal dogma.”
> 
> “After several years of being in Parliament, it’s a rare day certain journalists will give us a fair shake,” she writes. “Headlines that would have read, ‘Trudeau pushes Harper for Info’ now read ‘Scheer Wastes Parliaments Time’ (one of countless examples).”


More:



> “This is because among certain sets in this group, there’s a narrative you have to stick to — a Liberal narrative. Question the carbon tax, you must hate the planet. Question unchecked immigration that abuses the system, you must be uncompassionate, etc. … It’s irresponsible for them to suggest that because we put out opinions, information, and ideas that question the Liberal dogma that somehow we are misleading the public.”


And groping!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Harper doesn't need permission to visit the WH.


In the US, John Kerry was visiting various European leaders and those in Iran to undermine Trump's negotiations on the Iran nuclear deal--but the MSM only saw his visits as a force for good.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Out of Options: Canadian Trade Delegation Begins Lobbying Auto Manufacturers For Help…



> Good news within a strenuously spun Reuters article. Don’t get lost looking at the granules; apparently all of the prior Canadian strategy against President Trump has failed.
> 
> For well over a year Justin from Canada and Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland were confident they could leverage the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, purchased DC politicians and ideological allies against President Trump in NAFTA negotiations. The result? Fail, fail and more fail.
> 
> Running out of options, Canada now attempts to save their NAFTA construct by turning to the executives within the auto industry:
> 
> ...
> 
> Or put another way…. _*“Halp”!*_


Emphasis from the link.

WTH? The Purple Perogy and her 19.5 year old average aged brigade completely & utterly failed?

Shocka...


----------



## eMacMan

Again the correct outcome.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/not-guilty-verdict-peter-khill-080100823.html

The notion that Indians should have free license to steal from their neighbours needs to stop. Believe me none of these chiefs would have shown the slightest concern had the departed thief been a white meth head.



> But Manishen did mention it in his closing address to the jury, only to say that it was his opinion that race had nothing to do with the shooting because it happened in a split second and Khill pulled the trigger in the dark.


----------



## SINC

Yep! :clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2000!*

Further on the Prime Groper. It's nice to see this _finally_ getting legs.

After 'reflecting very carefully' on groping allegation, Trudeau says he doesn't feel he acted inappropriately



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau gave his most detailed response yet to an 18-year-old allegation he groped a female reporter, confirming Thursday he had apologized to the woman at the time but saying he didn’t feel he had acted “in any way untoward.”


When? Between bong hits?

The questions Trudeau must answer on the grope issue



> So now even the Toronto Star, or one of their columnists, has come out and said Justin Trudeau needs to answer more questions. Since the story of the 18 year-old groping allegation hit the news three weeks ago, Trudeau has relied on a canned statement from his office.


Woman who accused PM of groping may have had ‘different’ experience: Trudeau



> When pressed again on groping allegations from an event 18 years ago in B.C., Prime Minister Justin Trudeau admitted his accuser may have experienced their interaction “very differently.”


Ya think, Juthdin?

Related:

So CBC covered up the Kokanee Grope for Trudeau, who else?



> CBC admitted in their own coverage that they knew of the Kokanee Grope story but didn’t do anything on it. In fact, CBC admits they spoke to the woman behind the allegation by phone and email and still did nothing with the story.


Yep. This is what a billion & a half taxpayer funded bucks a year to your state broadcaster, Mother Corpse, gets ya.

Nuttin'. Nada. Zero. Sweet FA...

More:



> They didn’t think that you, the public, deserved to know. Is that their decision to make? They would think so. I really do wonder who else knew as much as CBC and decided to do the same?
> 
> Given that this story broke on June 6th but took three weeks to break into a mainstream publication outside of the Sun or talk radio…..forgive me for thinking that others knew.
> 
> And forgive me for thinking they know of other stories and are sitting on them as well.


Yeppers. Can't spoil the narrative now, can we?


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> Further on the Prime Groper. It's nice to see this _finally_ getting legs.
> 
> After 'reflecting very carefully' on groping allegation, Trudeau says he doesn't feel he acted inappropriately
> 
> 
> 
> When? Between bong hits?
> 
> The questions Trudeau must answer on the grope issue
> 
> 
> 
> Woman who accused PM of groping may have had ‘different’ experience: Trudeau
> 
> 
> 
> Ya think, Juthdin?
> 
> Related:
> 
> So CBC covered up the Kokanee Grope for Trudeau, who else?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. This is what a billion & a half taxpayer funded bucks a year to your state broadcaster, Mother Corpse, gets ya.
> 
> Nuttin'. Nada. Zero. Sweet FA...
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeppers. Can't spoil the narrative now, can we?



So he apologized but thinks he did nothing wrong? First off, why apologize for something if you feel you are innocent. Second if you are going to apologize while thinking you are innocent why would you publicly say you thing you did nothing wrong which would make any apology meaningless as he is obviously not sorry.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> So he apologized but thinks he did nothing wrong? First off, why apologize for something if you feel you are innocent. Second if you are going to apologize while thinking you are innocent why would you publicly say you thing you did nothing wrong which would make any apology meaningless as he is obviously not sorry.


Sorry, wonderings. I got nuttin' for ya...

I don't pretend to understand politicians at the best of times, let alone Prog ones.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, good!

Kinder Morgan will get up to $1 billion to restart pipeline construction



> Kinder Morgan Canada plans to restart construction on the Trans Mountain pipeline in August.
> 
> But to do that, it needs cash that doesn’t come from its own coffers, since the company halted spending on the project in April and will sell it to the federal government within the coming months.
> 
> How much cash exactly?
> 
> Up to $1 billion, according to an official from the Department of Finance, and it will not need to be repaid by the company.
> 
> Instead, *the money will be made available in a fund backstopped by Export Development Canada that the company can draw from as it encounters costs from restarting work on the project*.


Bold mine.

An alleged "loan guarantee". Right...

Thank you, Porno Willie & Juthdin. If this project merely could have been given the go-ahead, it wouldn't have cost taxpayers a dime.

And, now that the project is funded by the Feds, does this mean that along come all the goofy special interest group hirings, instead of the right people for the job?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2000!*

Further on the Prime Groper.

Rex Murphy: Trudeau's 'awakening' on groping allegations is (ahem) a bit of a reach



> “I’m sorry. If I had known you were reporting for a national paper, I never would have been so forward.”
> 
> That’s the apology Justin Trudeau gave a young woman — a “day late” (her words) — following the “not negative interactions” (his words) that allegedly included “manhandling” and “groping” (her words) at an immortal beer festival and charity day in Creston, B.C., in August 2000.
> 
> The power of a full week’s reflection on the “no negative interactions” has summoned this apology back to the prime minister’s memory. He now says he “gave (the apology) in the moment,” a combination of words I have never met before. Whatever it may be taken to mean, as an apology, given in the moment or otherwise, it’s hardly blue-ribbon repentance. It was a pure dud.


Related:

Woman groped by the lying hypocrite Justin Trudeau confirms incident happened as reported

Related, too:

Trudeau groping controversy now a dumpster fire



> As he continued his explanation tour the rest of the week, Trudeau followed up his lack of memory of the incident by suggesting men and women remember things differently. He told CP24’s Stephanie Smyth “In terms of my recollection there was no untoward or inappropriate action but she was in a professional context. Who knows where her mind was and I fully respect her ability to experience something differently.”
> 
> He then prattled on about our “collective awakening” and tried to remind us of his feminist bona fides saying “I would never presume to speak for her or to have a perspective on how she should feel or should act on this.”
> 
> He also added that there is no need for an investigation.
> 
> So why apologize? “Again, I’ve been reflecting…”
> 
> And what of his responsibility in all of this? He’s still reflecting on that.


More:



> *And what of the deafening silence on this issue from the 50 percent of Trudeau’s cabinet who are women?* Don’t you believe Knight? How come we haven’t heard a peep from Canada’s Status of Women Minister Maryam Monsef? After all, Trudeau himself said we have to believe the women in these instances and he was the one that punted Liberal caucus members on flimsier accusations.
> 
> *Shouldn’t Trudeau also be measured by the “I believe her” standard?*


M'bold.

Nails it.

So, Juthdin has a zero tolerance policy on sexual abuse. He himself has stated that the woman is always to be believed. At this point the only responsible thing for him to do is to commit ritual seppuku with a dull butter knife.

Hey, he likes playing Mr. Dressup! He can even don a samurai outfit to play the part. Who wants to play his second & finish the job? You can use a plastic straw.

I'll even offer my services as a professional photographer. For the meagre sum of $1 million (USD, of course, cash on the barrel head), I'd be happy to cover this earthshaking event. Of course, travel, accommodations, food, craft beer, OJ and miscellaneous expenses are extra. I'm thinking another million & a half USD. For that, I'll burn everything to a CD & ship it to Parliament Hill, FOB Lethbridge.

One more thing: Where's the hue & cry from the left on this?

Nuttin'. Crickets.

Hypocrites...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> One more thing: Where's the hue & cry from the left on this?
> 
> Nuttin'. Crickets.
> 
> Hypocrites...


You've been hueing and crying enough for all of us, I think. Were there more to go on beyond the he-said, she-said, if the victim were at all interested in pursuing this (she's publicly stated that she is not), if somebody had Trudeau on tape bragging to his drinking buddies that he met up with a hottie at a festival and he 'got some', well that would be different. 

All we have is something that probably happened, two people who saw the incident in different lights, and nothing else to go on except the frothing at the mouth of the RRW.

You might note that no-one has defended Trudeau in the slightest in this forum.

You do like to presume much about the "progs" in here.... which matters not a whit to sensible folks.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

I haven't noticed that at all.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


>


 I have noticed they also support creating and continuing the murderous bombings and terrorist organizations that create the refugees.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I have noticed they also support creating and continuing the murderous bombings and terrorist organizations that create the refugees.


In the US, that would be Democrats and RINOs.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> In the US, that would be Democrats and RINOs.


I am afraid it would be the entire sorry lot of them regardless of the whether they are black with white stripes down their backs or the other way around. 

Again I apologize for maligning skunks by comparing politicians to them. It really isn't fair as skunks do serve a useful purpose on this planet, while no one has yet discovered a good use for politicians.


----------



## FeXL

I see. Trump again, right?

And, like Trump, that would be nothing more than drunken braggadocio with the boys, given a complete absence of any empirical evidence.

What we have here is a literal account of a sexual assault, filed by the victim the day after it happened & nothing but white-washing from the assaulter & his supporters.

Once again, if this was Harper, Prog heads would be exploding.



CubaMark said:


> ...if somebody had Trudeau on tape bragging to his drinking buddies that he met up with a hottie at a festival and he 'got some', well that would be different.


I also note that not a single person on these boards from the left has even mentioned it (save you now), let alone be critical of Mr Dressup.

Once more, if this was Harper (or Trump!), Progs would be calling for their heads.

Again, hypocrisy rears its ugly head. Why the double standard? How do you live with yourselves?



CubaMark said:


> You might note that no-one has defended Trudeau in the slightest in this forum.


Progs everywhere speak loud & clear, both by their action & their inaction...



CubaMark said:


> You do like to presume much about the "progs" in here....


----------



## 18m2

I think it's going to be very interesting to witness Trudeau's response the next time someone in Parliament is accused of some sexual misconduct given his hypocritical position on his own actions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/trudeau-groping-allegation-1.4738492[/iurl]


----------



## SINC

If Trudeau had a shred of honour, he would resign.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> I think it's going to be very interesting to witness Trudeau's response the next time someone in Parliament is accused of some sexual misconduct given his hypocritical position on his own actions.


Good point.

My bet is the hypocrisy will run rampant: For thee, but not for me...


----------



## Rps

I don’t know why there is such surprise about Trudeau and groping....... I mean he does it with policy so why not with patrons!


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I don’t know why there is such surprise about Trudeau and groping....... I mean he does it with policy so why not with patrons!


It's not a surprise for me at all, seeing as how he elbowed the female MP in the HoC and the fact that the guy has always felt just a little "greasy" to me. Just a little too slick, a little too much of a sense of entitlement for his own good.

The disappointment lies in the double standard that he, the Liberal caucus, the MSM and everyone else who has been silent on this matter apply. I'm entirely _not_ surprised at said double standard, just tres disappointed.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2000!*

Well, let's talk the Prime Groper s'more. This horse ain't dead yet.

What if groper controversy had been about a Conservative leader?



> A question today on the state of the Canadian media.
> 
> Had Conservative leader Andrew Scheer, or former prime minister Stephen Harper, or Ontario Premier Doug Ford, been accused of groping a woman 18 years ago, as Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been, would it have taken two weeks for the Canadian media to start covering the story in earnest from the time the allegation was widely known?


Not. A. Chance.

Related:

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside. I haven't clicked on the link but the criticism in the quote stuns me. Whomever wrote this article is not long for MotherCorpse.

Hypocrisy is at the crux of the Trudeau groping allegation



> This is about hypocrisy — not about what did or did not happen at a music festival 18 years ago.
> 
> It is about “believing women,” until it happens to you; about taking all allegations of sexual misconduct seriously, except if they happen to pass some arbitrary expiration date. It is about employing an unwavering zero-tolerance policy, which, in practice, ends up showing some tolerance for the man at the top.
> 
> It is about having one set of standards for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and another set of standards to everyone else. That’s the issue. Not what did or did not happen in Creston, B.C.


Progs & hypocrisy: Not a bug, but a feature.

Related, too:

Justin Trudeau gets picked apart



> The groping allegations against Canada's wunderkind male feminist and oh so politically correct Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, alleged several years ago when he was about age 28, against a female reporter, are getting to be a bigger issue over in Canada.
> 
> The New York Times in its spread on the matter had Trudeau denying again that he did anything untoward, but qualifying the incident in question a little by saying everyone experiences things differently. In other words, when a woman gets a grope, from Justin's point of view, well, her boob just flew into his hand, or something. It's all the same, and we must get "our" minds around it. In other words, the Canadian king of #MeToo doesn't want to come off as declaring the woman a liar, which he should do, if in fact, she's actually lying.


More:



> *In other words, groping is ok when it's a wench from the sticks, but not so much if she's a "national" reporter (who can report on him.)*
> 
> In other words, his morality revolves around whether he can get caught.
> 
> *Oh gad, what a pathetic little immature man who views being gentlemanly as not a principled thing, but something to put on like a fancy suit when going out among polite society.*
> 
> Can someone ask him about where the grope-line lies between national and local?


Yeah, bold mine.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> I don’t know why there is such surprise about Trudeau and groping....... I mean he does it with policy so why not with patrons!


He is after all his fathers son


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2018!*

Nope. That means the taxpayer covers it. Ain't interested.

He can pay for them with his personal trust fund and sell that old, used Mercedes he got from the old man.

Feds should pay all bills for border-crossing crisis



> His country may be $1.4 trillion in debt, but the federal Liberal government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau should pay all the bills for a border crossing disaster that has crippled Toronto, parts of Quebec and damaged the entire country, a spokesman for Ontario Premier Doug Ford said Thursday.
> 
> “This mess was 100 per cent the result of the federal government, and the federal government should foot 100 per cent of the bills,” Simon Jefferies, a spokesperson for Ford, said in a statement.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2000!*

Even more!

Tory MP Compares Trudeau’s Groping Claim Response To Harvey Weinstein



> Conservative MP Michelle Rempel is going after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's feminist credentials following his recent response to an 18-year-old groping allegation that he can't remember such an incident.
> 
> "Well I'm sure Harvey Weinstein said that he couldn't recall things either," Rempel told HuffPost Canada in an interview Wednesday, referencing the disgraced Hollywood film mogul who is awaiting trial for first-degree rape and other sexual misconduct charges.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> Progs everywhere speak loud & clear, both by their action & their inaction...


He touched a girls bum at a party while fully clothed 18 years ago.

Who cares!

Don't mistake indifference with a double-standard.

If Harper did so I also wouldn't care. Or anyone.

I'm sure I'm guilty of a "nice bum where you from". Back when I was that age an suffered from I don't know how the world works, but think I do.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> Even more!
> 
> Tory MP Compares Trudeau’s Groping Claim Response To Harvey Weinstein


So dumb.

It really dilutes the absolutely abhorrent behavior of Weinstein. He used his position to assault women and threatened to sideline their careers. And he did it over and over. 

Not even close to the same thing...


----------



## FeXL

Among others, the feminists care. As he portends to be a feminist, he should be held to precisely the same standard that he has already enforced within his own cabinet.



smashedbanana said:


> Who cares!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Among others, the feminists care. As he portends to be a feminist, he should be held to precisely the same standard that he has already enforced within his own cabinet.


Yep. It's no big deal for me as an ancient incident, but a big deal if the perp demands others toe the line he set for them.


----------



## FeXL

I disagree. It throws into sharp relief his arrogance & sense of entitlement & how he used both to sexually assault a young reporter with whom he thought he could get away scott free because "she wasn't with a national chain". He abused his celebrity status much the same as Weinstein did. The only difference is the number of occurrences. And that matters not a whit: once, a hunnert times. Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.



smashedbanana said:


> It really dilutes the absolutely abhorrent behavior of Weinstein.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> I disagree. It throws into sharp relief his arrogance & sense of entitlement & how he used both to sexually assault a young reporter with whom he thought he could get away scott free because "she wasn't with a national chain". He abused his celebrity status much the same as Weinstein did. The only difference is the number of occurrences. And that matters not a whit: once, a hunnert times. Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.


This is a ridiculous statement.

Read what Harvey Weinstein has done and tell me they are the same.

You are blinded by your predominant dislike of Trudeau.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> This is a ridiculous statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Read what Harvey Weinstein has done and tell me they are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> You are blinded by your predominant dislike of Trudeau.



Good call, but he’ll never admit it.


----------



## FeXL

Thank you for your opinion.



smashedbanana said:


> This is a ridiculous statement.


I never said it was the same. Here's the quote:



> He abused his celebrity status much the same as Weinstein did.





smashedbanana said:


> Read what Harvey Weinstein has done and tell me they are the same.


Nope. I'm asking anybody who holds particular standards to be judged by them. Based on his actions from the past, he should resign. I'd add "in shame" but he was already an embarrassment to the country before this came to light.



smashedbanana said:


> You are blinded by your predominant dislike of Trudeau.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2000!*

Awwww! I missed him?

Trudeau hypocrisy lingers after he exits Calgary



> It’s a wonderful day in Calgary and Justin Trudeau is gone.
> 
> Yes, this wasn’t the best of Stampede visits for the PM, groping for the way out of a story, a tale still managing to have a strong pulse.
> 
> Oh, for the bygone days where excited Calgary crowds mobbed the boy wonder on his way to winning Liberal seats in the city for the first time in more than two generations.
> 
> This time is different.


More:



> Still, Calgary Liberal MP Hehr must be the loyal soldier, enthusiastically so.
> 
> “The PM has addressed these matters. He’s moving forward. He’s got a job to do being prime minister and I think he’d doing an excellent job.”


On second thought, I'm glad I wasn't there. I would have hurled my breakfast in technicolour after that statement.


----------



## wonderings

smashedbanana said:


> He touched a girls bum at a party while fully clothed 18 years ago.
> 
> Who cares!
> 
> Don't mistake indifference with a double-standard.
> 
> If Harper did so I also wouldn't care. Or anyone.
> 
> I'm sure I'm guilty of a "nice bum where you from". Back when I was that age an suffered from I don't know how the world works, but think I do.


I agree and personally think all these things that happened so long ago coming to light now ruining peoples lives are a bit crazy. The issue here is Trudeau speaking like a saint, firing people purely based on allegations. It is incredibly hypocritical and really if he is going to go down that road being the feminist he claims to be then he needs all the same things thrown right back at him. If he had not fired people without due process and investigations purely based on allegations I would not think anything of it and think everyone should just shut up about it now, but Trudeau's actions have not left that option available. If he is going to come down hard on the issue then he has to accept when it comes down hard on him.


----------



## Macfury

Exactly. It's the hypocrisy that matters here.



wonderings said:


> I agree and personally think all these things that happened so long ago coming to light now ruining peoples lives are a bit crazy. The issue here is Trudeau speaking like a saint, firing people purely based on allegations. It is incredibly hypocritical and really if he is going to go down that road being the feminist he claims to be then he needs all the same things thrown right back at him. If he had not fired people without due process and investigations purely based on allegations I would not think anything of it and think everyone should just shut up about it now, but Trudeau's actions have not left that option available. If he is going to come down hard on the issue then he has to accept when it comes down hard on him.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Exactly. It's the hypocrisy that matters here.


Hey, if the Progs didn't have double standards, they'd have no standards at all. :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

I agree. Further, I think all the drug users should move to Tranna, too. 

Canada health official: Decriminalize all drugs



> Toronto's top public health official is calling for the decriminalization of all drugs as a way to curb rising overdoses.
> 
> Toronto Medical Officer of Health Dr. Eileen de Villa says Canada's current stance on drugs "forces people into unsafe drug use practices and creates barriers to seeking help."


MF, don't worry. After Red Rachel gets the shoe in less than a year, you can move out here.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Hey, Piggy, where art thou?

Soooouuuuiiiieeee!!!

‘Just outrageous’: Government spends $24k on 86 cushions for Mexico City embassy



> Global Affairs Canada spent $24,638 on 86 leather cushions destined to pad chairs at its embassy in Mexico City, new documents obtained by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation reveal.
> 
> The eye-watering price amounts to approximately $286 per cushion. The Canadian-made products were purchased in the fall of 2016 from a Regina-based company and sent to Mexico City, where they have presumably been making diplomats and visitors more comfortable ever since.


Hey, for once it wasn't a Kaybeck company that got the business. Good on 'em.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Yeppers.

House illegal U.S. migrants in community centres of Toronto Liberal MPs



> In May of this year, Mayor John Tory sounded the alarm that Toronto has nearly 2,700 illegal migrants using 40% of all available beds.
> 
> As a temporary measure, 800 illegal migrants were housed over the summer in two community college residences — Centennial College in Scarborough and Humber College in Etobicoke.
> 
> As of Aug. 9, students will be returning so these illegal migrants will have to vacate and be housed by the city in alternate locations until their refugee claims are adjudicated, which could take another two years.
> 
> Tory has threatened that if a solution is not found quickly, Toronto will be forced to enact emergency measures and open up community centres to house and accommodate this group.


If the MP's get re-elected, then the community was OK with the decision. If not, sucks to be a Liberal.


----------



## FeXL

Ummm... Busy fomenting discord & violence?

Where's Black Lives Matter when it matters?



> Until Toronto Police discontinued the controversial practice of street checks, Black Lives Matter pressed and protested to end “carding,” along with anti-gang TAVIS units and cops in schools.But the activist group has fallen silent as gun violence spirals out of control and young black men die at an alarming rate.Of 52 homicides in this city so far this year, 23 victims were black (44.2%). That number jumps to 55% when the 10 victims of the Yonge St. van attack is excluded.And alarmingly, of the 25 victims killed by guns in the first half of this year, 17 were black — 16 men and one woman accounting for 68% of all victims murdered by a gun. Those are frightening statistics from a community that represents just 9% of Toronto residents, according to Statistics Canada.Too many young black men are dying and too often gang violence is a factor.


Curious that all this gun violence on/by blacks with handguns goes unreported by our "****** WITH AN AR!!!" member, idn't it? You'd almost think he had an agenda...

Related:

Former BLM Activist Exposes Left’s Exploitation of the Movement



> The Left is using blacks and the compromised Black Lives Matter movement to launch a violent civil war in the United States, according to a popular viral video by a former Black Lives Matter activist.
> 
> The video has been receiving a great deal of attention from conservatives because it gives voice to concerns and anxieties expressed by Trump supporters in this time of escalating hostility and physical violence against those who support the Trump administration.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL, we disagree on this one. I think it's a basic human right to pollute your body with whatever garbage you want to shovel in there: transfats, grease, booze or cocaine. However, you should also prosecute the hell out of anyone who commits a crime while doing it. 



FeXL said:


> I agree. Further, I think all the drug users should move to Tranna, too.
> 
> Canada health official: Decriminalize all drugs
> 
> 
> 
> MF, don't worry. After Red Rachel gets the shoe in less than a year, you can move out here.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> FeXL, we disagree on this one.


Oh no, I think it's fine, as long as I don't have to pay for the cleanup.

People scream blue murder about potential medical costs when I tell them I don't wear seat belts & don't wear a helmet on the Hawg when I'm stateside, despite the fact that neither of these actually _cause_ accidents. There is some evidence that not wearing a helmet actually helps _prevent_ accidents (visibility, hearing, no false sense of security).

At the same time, they're mum when it comes to drug addicts injecting themselves with harmful substances using dirty needles.

Once again, the hypocrisy.


----------



## SINC

Every once in a while I'm in a rebellious mood and ride the wife's bike around the block without a helmet. I thumb my nose at the idiot council who made helmets mandatory.


----------



## smashedbanana

wonderings said:


> I agree and personally think all these things that happened so long ago coming to light now ruining peoples lives are a bit crazy. The issue here is Trudeau speaking like a saint, firing people purely based on allegations. It is incredibly hypocritical and really if he is going to go down that road being the feminist he claims to be then he needs all the same things thrown right back at him. If he had not fired people without due process and investigations purely based on allegations I would not think anything of it and think everyone should just shut up about it now, but Trudeau's actions have not left that option available. If he is going to come down hard on the issue then he has to accept when it comes down hard on him.


Sensible.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Every once in a while I'm in a rebellious mood and ride the wife's bike around the block without a helmet. I thumb my nose at the idiot council who made helmets mandatory.


"Born to be wi-ild!"


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Every once in a while I'm in a rebellious mood and ride the wife's bike around the block without a helmet. I thumb my nose at the idiot council who made helmets mandatory.


I have never worn a helmet while riding my bike. I figure if I survived racing down steep hills at 40 or 50MPH with no helmet, I can handle the rather sedate peddling I currently do as a senior citizen. Helmet laws be damned.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Helmet laws be damned.


You rebels! :love2:


----------



## SINC

Exactly.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Exactly.


What an embarrassment to the country.

Take another hit from the bong, Juthdin...


----------



## FeXL

I predict this business is not long for this world.

The World's First Pay-What-You-Can Grocery Store Opens In Toronto



> A new grocery story has opened in Toronto but there's no price tags on anything. That's because everything in the 1,100-square-foot market is pay-what-you-can.
> 
> The food for the world's first pay-what-you-can grocery store comes from food terminals, farms, restaurants, cafés, supermarkets and bakeries. None of it is expired or rotten, but companies are getting rid of it for reasons such as the produce being naturally bruised or misshapen, or there's too much to store in warehouses.


----------



## SINC

A good read on how tariffs only hurt ourselves. 

https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1531395774


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> A good read on how tariffs only hurt ourselves.
> 
> https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1531395774


While there is some truth in the article, one has to recognize the supply chain that has been weaved over the last 25 years or so. We do have CETA, TPP, and yes NAFTA. We should have always expanded out markets and what the author doesn’t say is that our average tariff is around 1.5% probably the lowest in the G7. Yes we do have some weird rates but those are there due to industry pressure and the fact they weren’t updated when we stopped using sailing ships.

However, the Donald is a bully and uses intimidation ....he also is not that bright.

Instead of using retaliation tariffs I would do the following..

1. 150% Carbon Tax on all American coal shipped out of B.C.

2. Ontario to buy hydro from Quebec with suspension of transfers to U.S. clients

3. Export shipments of gas and oil to Asia, EU and Africa and eliminate over time dependence on U.S. market.

If he wishes to hurt us, might as well return the favour.


----------



## macintosh doctor

strangely appropriate


----------



## Beej

LNG Canada Ticking the Boxes Toward Approval
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...g-all-the-boxes-toward-approval-servicers-say


> The prospects for a massive gas export plant on Canada’s Pacific Coast are looking bright, according to executives of service companies that would have a hand in supporting the facility.


Pretty big news if this goes ahead. Would be a significant increase in access to global energy markets.


----------



## Macfury

It sounds like a big win if it happens. And LNG can't spill. It just goes "poof" if the hull is breached.



Beej said:


> LNG Canada Ticking the Boxes Toward Approval
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...g-all-the-boxes-toward-approval-servicers-say
> 
> 
> Pretty big news if this goes ahead. Would be a significant increase in access to global energy markets.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> It sounds like a big win if it happens. And LNG can't spill. It just goes "poof" if the hull is breached.


If a T-1000 ever attacks Kitimat, we will be ready. Bring it on, Skynet.


----------



## SINC

Yep and good!

*Trudeau’s Carbon Tax Looks Pretty Much Dead Now That Most Provinces Are Out*

https://business.financialpost.com/...tty-much-dead-now-that-most-provinces-are-out

And here's why more provinces will tell Trudeau to stuff himself:

*Opinion: Not Seeing The Forest For The Trillions Of Trees*

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/opinion-not-seeing-the-forest-for-the-trillions-of-trees


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Yep and good!
> 
> *Trudeau’s Carbon Tax Looks Pretty Much Dead Now That Most Provinces Are Out*
> 
> https://business.financialpost.com/...tty-much-dead-now-that-most-provinces-are-out
> 
> And here's why more provinces will tell Trudeau to stuff himself:
> 
> *Opinion: Not Seeing The Forest For The Trillions Of Trees*
> 
> https://vancouversun.com/opinion/opinion-not-seeing-the-forest-for-the-trillions-of-trees


Sinc, I’ve seen this story before. With governments when ideology hits reality many times ideology reigns supreme. Trudeau needs a win and his ideology and ego won’t let him backdown on this. So we are GREEN but now own a pipeline......he has to win this or he’s done. However I think the SCofC will play here. He is a wee bit freightened of the potential result if he takes Kinder opposers to the court. He will use the heavy hand of funding to get his way. What the provinces need to do is campaign an anybody but Trudeau campaign during the next federal election.....maybe that would get his attention.


----------



## eMacMan

*Insanity!*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/syria-russia-white-helmet-1.4749380



> Canada is among three Western nations that will accept hundreds of volunteer emergency workers that Israeli forces plucked from Syria under the cover of darkness in a dramatic international rescue, CBC News has learned.


Time for Canadians to realize the white helmets were embedded with and part of various western sponsored terrorist organizations. Specifically Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, and ISIS. That is of course the entire reason they had to be rescued. Their only purpose seemed to be filming propaganda videos and staging false flag chemical attacks. Attacks then conveniently blamed on the Assad government, whenever it looked like the US was pulling support for those terrorist organizations.

Time to let the White Helmets make a last stand along with the rest of their terrorist cohorts. Certainly there is no sane reason Canada should be importing known terrorists into our country.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Trudeau needs a win and his ideology and ego won’t let him backdown on this.


Ford's win in Ontario & his platform of no carbon tax, supported by many current (& up and coming) premieres, versus The Hairdo's ego, ignorance & ideology, will be the nail in Sock-Boy's second term plans.

No way he can push this on Ontario & Quebec & expect to get re-elected.

Not a chance.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

*For anyone who thinks MP staffers don't work hard*

Some people here have thought, well pretty much forever, that working on the Hill is a golden ticket to slacking off and have one and a half hours lunches. I for one have told all you people who have no experience that it is simply not true.

Finally a staffer has broken ranks to tell at least some of the truth:

Outgoing Hill staffer calls for workplace culture shift after suicide attempts

Staffers are abused in many ways. Verbally doesn't seem to count. But I can tell you from my experience and eye and ear first hand witness that some MPs are completely willing to berate a staffer right in front of the rest of the team, whether in person or on a conference call. There is no, "Come into my office, we need to talk".

This behavior has to stop. But sadly there is little that can be done aside from people raising it as an issue on social media. The reason being is that MP staffers are hired at the convenience of the MP, they can be fired without cause at any time. So even if a staffer files a complaint of harassment the MP simply fires the staffer and there is little to no recourse for the staffer. Sure the staffer could make a legal challenge that would cost thousands of dollars and even if they won they would be blacked listed from ever working on the Hill again.

It is time for the general public to wake up and realize that working for an MP is no cushy job, quite the contrary, in far too many instances it amounts to almost to slave labour when the remuneration and hours worked are calculated in full.


----------



## FeXL

Seeing as this is your post 1, and you claim to have told us all this before, what was your previous handle?



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I for one have told all you people who have no experience that it is simply not true.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> Seeing as this is your post 1, and you claim to have told us all this before, what was your previous handle?


I will clear that up shortly good buddy. Getting back into ehMac after a long time absence isn't so easy.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I will clear that up shortly good buddy. Getting back into ehMac after a long time absence isn't so easy.


Awrite. I have my suspicions.

As to your question, I have no recollection of anybody beating up on MP's lowly staffers on these boards. Of course, I stand to be corrected.

It's usually the higher-ups that are overpaid & underworked.

That said, if the environment is that abusive, they can always look for work elsewhere.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> Awrite. I have my suspicions.
> 
> As to your question, I have no recollection of anybody beating up on MP's lowly staffers on these boards. Of course, I stand to be corrected.
> 
> It's usually the higher-ups that are overpaid & underworked.
> 
> That said, if the environment is that abusive, they can always look for work elsewhere.


FeXL I never mentioned you, I wasn't talking about you or to you...

As far as I could figure it out the only way to make a new post for a "New Neighbour" was to reply to a previous post. So that is what I did. It was not meant to be directed toward you.

In fact, I was probably speaking more to ghosts, people who are no longer here.

I am sorry if I offended you in any way. It was certainly not my intention.


----------



## SINC

I figured by the writingand subject matter who you were, Steve. Welcome back. I hope things are going well for you.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> FeXL I never mentioned you, I wasn't talking about you or to you...
> 
> As far as I could figure it out the only way to make a new post for a "New Neighbour" was to reply to a previous post. So that is what I did. It was not meant to be directed toward you.
> 
> In fact, I was probably speaking more to ghosts, people who are no longer here.
> 
> I am sorry if I offended you in any way. It was certainly not my intention.


None taken. I just couldn't recall any talk like that.

How's things?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I figured by the writingand subject matter who you were, Steve. Welcome back. I hope things are going well for you.


.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth iths 2015!*

The carbon tax is just a cash grab



> The federal carbon tax was a bad word in Saskatchewan from the beginning, and it is becoming more apparent as time goes on that this is a really bad idea whose time has not come. Moreover, the Liberal government is acting in bad faith with Canadians, when they will not allow information about what it’s really costing people to be made public.
> 
> The carbon tax issue was at the forefront of a town hall meeting held on Friday in Weyburn by Souris-Moose Mountain MP Dr. Robert Kitchen, who brought along the Conservatives’ finance critic, MP Pierre Poilievre, who shared some of the information he’s been able to glean about this insidious tax that, up until now, Saskatchewan has been alone among the provinces in fighting its implementation upon her citizens.


More:



> *[J]ust how is this tax supposed to address its supposed target, namely to reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases that cause global warming?
> 
> Realistically, there is no way this tax will address that issue, as only the reduction of harmful emissions can accomplish that.* The tax is nothing more than a cash grab by the Liberals, maybe in the hopes of offsetting the incredibly high debt they are building by over-spending Canadian tax dollars.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

PATHETIC: As The US & Mexico Consider NAFTA Deal Without Canada, The Liberals Are Attacking Harper



> As I recently reported, Justin Trudeau’s ‘strategy’ of standing in “solidarity” with Mexico on NAFTA appears to be going up in flames.
> 
> After repeatedly refusing to even consider a bilateral deal with the US when the Trump administration was happy with Canada, it turns out that Mexico and the US are now considering a bilateral deal on NAFTA without Canada, and the US is directing their anger in our direction – instead of towards Mexico.
> 
> *That would give both the US and Mexico massive leverage over Canada, and would force the Trudeau government to crawl back to the negotiating table with almost zero power to get a good deal for the Canadian People.*


Links' emphasis.

Related:

Trudeau denies Harper's NAFTA accusation, says trade more important than 'playing politics'



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is shooting down an allegation from his predecessor that he is resisting making a NAFTA deal with the United States in order to reap the political reward of standing up to Donald Trump.
> 
> In Markham, Ont., Trudeau responded to the accusation from former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper, saying the trade relationship with the U.S. and NAFTA specifically are "much more important than playing politics."


More:



> *The reality is that the Government of Canada believes today that it is doing very well, the fight with Trump is good for it politically, it is winning," Harper said.
> 
> "So if it can take that fight and continue it, and more importantly paint conservatives as linked to Donald Trump, this is great for them. And so right now that is the strategy they are on," *Harper said in the recording of his remarks at a private luncheon hosted by the Australia-Canada Economic Leadership Forum in Montreal on July 11.


Bold mine.

Anybody who seriously thinks that a trade battle with Trump is going to score political points is an idiot. Anybody who supports Sock Boy in his pursuit of said trade battle is an idiot, as well.

At this rate, Canada will end up in third place & sucking on the hind tit. We had a chance to cover a lot of ground. Instead, the idiot is attempting to score political points with the unseeing, unknowing & unthinking.

Thank you, Juthdin.


----------



## FeXL

An opinion I happen to agree with. Tired of all these goofy food fads...

Lawrence Solomon: 98% of people should be gorging on glorious gluten, not shunning it



> High-gluten diets lessen the risk of Type 2 diabetes, according to a 30-year-long American Heart Association study of 200,000 subjects. Gluttons for breads, pizzas and other gluten-rich foods had a 13-per-cent lower risk of contracting the disease than those with the least gluten in their diet. Gluten’s healthfulness was even more pronounced with coronary heart disease, according to a 26-year-long Harvard Medical School study of 110,000 Americans, which found a 15-per-cent lower incidence among the highest glutineers. It concluded that “The promotion of gluten-free diets among people without celiac disease should not be encouraged.”


I jes' luvs me a couple thick slices of a good bread, slathered with fresh butter.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

14 Canadian children linked to ISIS, says study that calls on government to rehabilitate them



> _“Currently, the number of global attacks successfully conducted by returning IS minors is still comparatively low,” the report said. “However, without effective de-radicalization and reintegration initiatives tailored to children and teenagers, indoctrinated and trained minors will continue to pose a significant threat in the future, wherever they end up.”_​


Ya think?

Related:

Britain faces growing threat from ISIS women and children returning from Syria and Iraq who experts say are much greater danger than official figures suggest



> ISIS brides and their radical children pose a significant threat to Britain, it has been warned, as authorities are accused of underestimating their potential to attack.
> 
> A startling new report has revealed 145 women and 50 minors were among the estimated 850 people who travelled from the UK to support IS in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> Of the 425 returnees recorded, only two women and four minors were listed.
> 
> A report, From Daesh to Diaspora, found 13% of the 41,490 foreign citizens who became affiliated with the terror group in Iraq and Syria between 2013 and 2018 were women – and another 12% were minors.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Woohoo!!! I feel safer already!!!

Immigration Expert: Trudeau Has Lost Track Of ‘Tens Of Thousands’ Of Syrian Refugees



> An immigration expert says Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is very good at “virtue signaling” but has failed to keep track of the tens of thousands of Syrian refugees that he has brought into the country.
> 
> Douglas Murray, author of “The Strange Death of Europe” told “Fox & Friends” Friday that the Trudeau government is stonewalling reporters who are asking for a status update on the Syrian refugees, who starting entering Canada shortly after Trudeau became prime minister in 2015.
> 
> “In 2016, only 10 percent of government-assisted refugees from Syria were in any kind of employment in Canada. Two years later…reporters have not been able to find out any information about what has happened to these people,” Murray said.
> 
> Murray notes that Trudeau has allowed at least 50,000 Syrian refugees into Canada “but he seems not to have kept track of them,” while now he “wants to cover over the consequences of that decision.”


A Prog politician trying to CYA? Shocka... 

Related:

‘Not found’: Half of ‘deported’ refugees never left Germany, report reveals



> The number of unsuccessful deportations from Germany has increased by more than 200 percent, as every second deportable migrant stayed in the country by not appearing for their expulsion appointment.
> 
> An internal evaluation by the federal police found that, as of the end of May, only 11,100 scheduled deportations had been successful out of a planned 23,900, according to the report by Deutsche Wirtschafts Nachrichten.
> 
> Some 11,500 refugees were listed as “not found” on their appointed day, with the remaining 1,300 cases abandoned for various other reasons. Around 150 people stayed because pilots refused to take them, and in more than 500 cases, deportation was stopped because of “active or passive resistance.”


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Birds of a feather...

Hedley frontman Jacob Hoggard, here seen with groping pal Justin Trudeau, arrested and charged with sexual assault



> Former Hedley frontman Jacob Hoggard has been charged by Toronto and Peel Regional police with sexual assault after numerous allegations were brought forth against the singer.
> 
> In a joint news release from the two police services, police say a man met two different women on separate occasions in 2016 over three dates. They allege that the man sexually assaulted both women.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

SINC said:


> I figured by the writingand subject matter who you were, Steve. Welcome back. I hope things are going well for you.





FeXL said:


> None taken. I just couldn't recall any talk like that.
> 
> How's things?





Freddie_Biff said:


> .


Thanks guys for your comments, things have been better but there is no point in complaining because next to no one wants to hear about it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Thanks guys for your comments, things have been better but there is no point in complaining because next to no one wants to hear about it.




Not only that, but next to no one actually reads this forum anymore. Just the Cerberus, Mark, Dr. G and me. Maybe a couple others.


----------



## eMacMan

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I will clear that up shortly good buddy. Getting back into ehMac after a long time absence isn't so easy.


Glad to see you back Steve. We may have our differences on occasion, but overall I like you.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Juthdin's crack, Purple Perogy-led team of boy-band international trade agreement negotiators...

NAFTA appears headed into bilateral talks, with U.S. looking to strike quick deal with Mexico: experts



> The on-again, off-again NAFTA talks appear headed in a whole new direction, one that could see the United States strike a quick deal with Mexico first, then turn to Canada with potentially added leverage, experts suggested Friday.
> 
> The scenario might even result in the States sparing Mexico further punitive tariffs on steel or possibly cars, as Canada remains in the vice, said one analyst, citing sources in the administration and on Capitol Hill.
> 
> “We are looking at a possible scenario that at some point in mid- or late-August, the U.S. announces automotive tariffs and exempts Mexico, but not Canada,” said Dan Ujczo, a trade lawyer and expert on Canada-U.S. relations.
> 
> “That could be a significant challenge politically,” he added. “The trillion-dollar question is: *Does Canada continue to rally around the prime minister at that point, or do we really start seeing the private sector push to take a deal (with concessions)?*”


M'bold.

Trust me, Dan, this country ain't rallying around Sock Boy. Most of us would just as soon he return to snowboard instructing or substitute drama teaching. Maybe he could go back to university & drop out of a couple more grad programs. You know, throw back a few steins of Kokanee, grope a couple female reporters. The sort of things he did while he was still harmless, you know?


----------



## Macfury

How can you rally around someone who is immobile?



FeXL said:


> Further on Juthdin's crack, Purple Perogy-led team of boy-band international trade agreement negotiators...
> 
> NAFTA appears headed into bilateral talks, with U.S. looking to strike quick deal with Mexico: experts
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Trust me, Dan, this country ain't rallying around Sock Boy. Most of us would just as soon he return to snowboard instructing or substitute drama teaching. Maybe he could go back to university & drop out of a couple more grad programs. You know, throw back a few steins of Kokanee, grope a couple female reporters. The sort of things he did while he was still harmless, you know?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> How can you rally around someone who is immobile?


They'd be easy to catch! :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Freddie_Biff said:


> Not only that, but next to no one actually reads this forum anymore. Just the Cerberus, Mark, Dr. G and me. Maybe a couple others.


Quite frankly when I typed in ehMac I was half expecting to get a 404 message. I guess the owners are still getting enough "click throughs" on advertising to make it worth their while to keep this place afloat.


----------



## eMacMan

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Quite frankly when I typed in ehMac I was half expecting to get a 404 message. I guess the owners are still getting enough "click throughs" on advertising to make it worth their while to keep this place afloat.


If you check the cover page there are typically 50-60 viewing with about 10% of them logged in.

Since the owners have no vested or personal interest, it will probably run until there is a problem requiring a major expense, at which time it will die.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

eMacMan said:


> Glad to see you back Steve. We may have our differences on occasion, but overall I like you.


Thanks eMacMan. Overall I don't know you from Job but we often disagreed, sometimes very strongly, on the things that we posted.

After a year away from this place, I realized I didn't want to be that guy screature any more. I'm not sure how long I will stick around but I thought it was time that I could reconnect and give it another shot without the screature persona.

Also I am fairly confident that if we met in person we would probably get along, all the while having very different opinions on many things. It gets boring talking to people who are always on the same page you, it is good (IMO) to have differences and talk about them. That is one of the ways in which grow intellectually.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

eMacMan said:


> If you check the cover page there are typically 50-60 viewing with about 10% of them logged in.
> 
> Since the owners have no vested or personal interest, it will probably run until there is a problem requiring a major expense, at which time it will die.


That is pretty much what I thought, they can still get "click throughs" on advertising even though they are so few member who actually contribute content. But I think they do have a vested interest to the extent that they make enough money to offset the expenses of keeping this place alive, they probably even make a little money from this place. When that stops and this place is consistently in the red, that is when this place will cease to exist. Also I agree with your point about a "major expense", that would also cause this place to die.


----------



## Macfury

It's the large number of legacy posts that are the click bait for advertisers here--each of them well indexed. That's why VeritcalScope purchased forums with a lot of history behind them;



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> That is pretty much what I thought, they can still get "click throughs" on advertising even though they are so few member who actually contribute content. But I think they do have a vested interest to the extent that they make enough money to offset the expenses of keeping this place alive, they probably even make a little money from this place. When that stops and this place is consistently in the red, that is when this place will cease to exist. Also I agree with your point about a "major expense", that would also cause this place to die.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> It's the large number of legacy posts that are the click bait for advertisers here--each of them well indexed. That's why VeritcalScope purchased forums with a lot of history behind them;


Hi MF, I hope you are doing well. That makes a lot of sense and is basically what I was talking about when I said click throughs, but thanks for the more in depth observation. I have no doubt they constantly keep an eye on the analytics vs. revenue.

I am quite confident that lurkers are the driving financial force keeping this place alive. Of course I could be wrong, but that is what my brain and gut tells me.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Quite frankly when I typed in ehMac I was half expecting to get a 404 message. I guess the owners are still getting enough "click throughs" on advertising to make it worth their while to keep this place afloat.



Maybe it’s not that costly to run a server. They certainly don’t seem to be lifting a finger to do much else.


----------



## smashedbanana

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Thanks eMacMan. Overall I don't know you from Job but we often disagreed, sometimes very strongly, on the things that we posted.
> 
> After a year away from this place, I realized I didn't want to be that guy screature any more. I'm not sure how long I will stick around but I thought it was time that I could reconnect and give it another shot without the screature persona.
> 
> Also I am fairly confident that if we met in person we would probably get along, all the while having very different opinions on many things. It gets boring talking to people who are always on the same page you, it is good (IMO) to have differences and talk about them. That is one of the ways in which grow intellectually.


Welcome, welcome back.

Recognizing something about yourself and making an effort to change it has to one of the hardest things to do. And certainly a sign of real maturity. So few people ever recognize their own traits let alone make an effort to change them. 

No dig/condescension - I wish you the best.


----------



## smashedbanana

Freddie_Biff said:


> Maybe it’s not that costly to run a server. They certainly don’t seem to be lifting a finger to do much else.


Costs are peanuts now. You can get space on server for next to nothing, lots of competition.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau helps foreign businesses again, hurts Canadian ones



> The Trudeau government has once again introduced legislation that will hurt Canadian companies while helping their foreign competitors.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s latest move is not only hurtful to everyone who works in the oil and gas industry, it’s harmful to all the tax-paying companies and workers across Canada that supply parts, supplies and services to Canada’s energy industry.


Juthdin, Juthdin, Juthdin...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Can he afford to? In order to ensure his political future, he must (and look like a hypocrite in the process). He's probably not bright enough to figger that out on his own, but his handler, Butts, won't want to be relegated to a single term.

Trudeau's carbon tax gambit has failed, but can he afford to actually admit that?



> Toronto pundits should not be so quick to write off the new Doug Ford-Scott Moe alliance against the federal carbon tax. Yes, they were the only two of the 10 provincial premiers in New Brunswick this week to announce their support for a constitutional challenge to the federal law. And yes constitutional experts are correct in predicting that this legal challenge is not likely to succeed.
> 
> But winning in the legal battle does not mean winning the policy war. Obstructionist provincial governments can gum up federal policies whose effective implementation require provincial co-operation. Witness how B.C. Premier John Horgan and his anti-pipeline allies have succeeded in delaying the Kinder Morgan pipeline expansion despite losing 17 consecutive court decisions.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Under fire, Blair says 800 Toronto refugee claimants will move to hotels from dorms



> The new minister of Border Security got a baptism of fire Tuesday morning as he was under pressure to explain just what his job is.
> 
> The Conservative immigration critic grilled Bill Blair during his appearance before the Common Immigration committee which is holding three back-to-back hearings on Tuesday into the influx of irregular migrants into Canada.
> 
> There has been confusion over Blair’s new ministry since his appointment last week and that prompted questioning by Michelle Rempel, who was seeking some clarity.
> 
> “Will minister Goodale be reporting to you?” she asked.
> 
> “No,” Blair replied.
> 
> “Will the CBSA be reporting to you?”
> 
> “No. I have not received my mandate letters from the prime minister just yet so I cannot speculate on what my role will be.”
> 
> Liberal Committee chair MP Rob Oliphant then jumped in, he said, to help Blair get a word in “for the sake of our interpreters,” as Rempel peppered the new minister.
> 
> The minister did manage to announce that some 800 refugee claimants currently housed in college dormitories in Toronto will soon be moved to hotels for an indeterminate amount of time. A spokesperson told iPolitics Tuesday afternoon after committee that the refugee claimants will be moved to permanent housing before September 30. They were facing eviction August 9 from several college dorms.
> 
> “I think this is an appropriate response,” Blair told committee.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

smashedbanana said:


> Welcome, welcome back.
> 
> Recognizing something about yourself and making an effort to change it has to one of the hardest things to do. And certainly a sign of real maturity. So few people ever recognize their own traits let alone make an effort to change them.
> 
> No dig/condescension - I wish you the best.


Thanks SB, much appreciated. I didn't think for one second your post was condescending or a dig. All the best to you as well.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Thanks SB, much appreciated. I didn't think for one second your post was condescending or a dig. All the best to you as well.




Welcome back, Steve. We’ve missed you around here.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Freddie_Biff said:


> Welcome back, Steve. We’ve missed you around here.


Thank you for your kind greeting FB. I'm sorry I can't remember your name anymore after a year of being away and since all my PMs are gone from being screature I can't look it up.

All the best to you and yours.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Thank you for your kind greeting FB. I'm sorry I can't remember your name anymore after a year of being away and since all my PMs are gone from being screature I can't look it up.
> 
> 
> 
> All the best to you and yours.



You can call me Frank, Steve.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Freddie_Biff said:


> You can call me Frank, Steve.


Thanks Frank.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, how bad does your proposal have to be, or how offensive is your personality, or both, if the other negotiators don't even want you at the meetings?

Canada rejected in bid to be part of high-level NAFTA talks between Mexico and U.S.: sources



> American officials have taken the “highly unusual” step of rejecting Canada’s bid to take part in senior-level NAFTA talks between the U.S. and Mexico later this week, sources familiar with the trade negotiations said Monday.
> 
> One person said attempts by Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland to get a seat at the table in Washington Thursday were either ignored, or spurned outright by the office of U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) Robert Lighthizer.
> 
> Another source said the request to be at the meeting was made in a low-key fashion “so as not to spark a diplomatic incident” and was followed by “a retreat to diplomatic silence.”


Related:

U.S.T.R Robert Lighthizer: U.S. Closing in on NAFTA Agreement With Mexico – Meanwhile, Canada is Useless…



> For those following the nuance within ongoing U.S. trade discussions you have likely noted Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross and U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer speaking optimistically about a potential for a U.S. Mexico trade agreement. However, simultaneously the U.S. trade team is not optimistic about any deal with Canada.


I'm _so_ proud... XX)


----------



## Macfury

When will the US come to its senses and renegotiate the deal through the lens of gender?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> When will the US come to its senses and renegotiate the deal through the lens of gender?


Hopefully? Never...


----------



## FeXL

Questions, questions, questions...

Between a Hyphenated Canadian... 



> ...and a hard place... let's see *Prime Minister Dressup, Andrea Horwath or the CBC* condemn Baldev Manjania for defending his property with a weapon...


Yeppers.

Once again: Progs see hypocrisy as a feature, not a bug. Double-standards for everyone!


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

fexl said:


> So, how bad does your proposal have to be, or how offensive is your personality, or both, if the other negotiators don't even want you at the meetings?


canada rejected in bid to be part of high-level nafta talks between mexico and u.s.: Sources

Well you didn't mention a lot of things:


> *
> canada’s apparent sidelining follows lighthizer’s recent comments that he hoped to strike a separate deal with mexico, then use that as pressure to win compromises from canada.*





> *
> “it is highly unusual, after more than a year of three-party talks, for canada not to participate in the new discussions between u.s. And mexican negotiators,” said chris sands, head of the center for canadian studies at johns hopkins university.*





> *
> a third source briefed on the negotiations said the u.s. Side, fueled in part by lighthizer’s reported dislike of freeland, has decided to not even let canada back into the process until it makes some kind of substantive concession.*





> *“i know that Canada continues to implore the Americans to get the table restarted, but as of yet, they’ve been rebuffed,” he said. “we really have been pens-down from a trilateral point of view since may.”*


Personally I am proud that Canada will not become another one of Trump's bitches. He is a bully, racist, misogamist and a tyrant. He admires the absolute power that Putin and Kim Jong-il have and if he had his way he would have the same powers that they have.

I do not like our current Liberal Federal government, but I like the fact that they not going to roll over and play dead for Trump.



> i'm _so_ proud... Xx)


----------



## Macfury

Both Trudeau and Obama have said they admired the ability of China to do just that. Trump has never said such a thing--usually the opposite.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> He admires the absolute power that Putin and Kim Jong-il have and if he had his way he would have the same powers that they have.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Personally I am proud that Canada will not become another one of Trump's bitches.


How does engaging in a trade agreement that is beneficial for _all_ parties make us anybody's bitch?



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> He is a bully, racist, misogamist and a tyrant.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> He admires the absolute power that Putin and Kim Jong-il have and if he had his way he would have the same powers that they have.


I'd be more than happy to read any links you'd care to post substantiating your claim.

As MF has noted, that was Barry & Mr Dressup.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I do not like our current Liberal Federal government, but I like the fact that they not going to roll over and play dead for Trump.


It's better that Juthdin roll over & play dead for Canadians?


----------



## FeXL

Unbelievable.

Only under Nenshi...

Calgary and 16-year-olds voting. It's back!



> On Thursday, a group of city council members, including Nenshi, vote to ask the province to “explore” lowering the voting age to 16 for city elections.
> 
> Sending that request to the provincial NDP government will get a Yes or No from the full city council on Monday.
> 
> Three years ago, Alberta cities and towns voted by a margin of 3 to 1 against lowering the voting age.


Wanna bet Red Rachel & Co. will be all over this?

More:



> Nenshi says lowering the age to 16 would allow people to vote when they’re taking social studies classes and learning how government works.


Yep. Haven't taken a high school social studies course yet, but fully capable of making an informed political decision.

Riiiiiight...

Related:

Calgary city council approves motion to explore lowering voting age to 16



> Calgary city council narrowly passed a motion Monday to explore lowering the voting age in municipal elections from 18 to 16.
> 
> The motion, introduced by Councillor George Chahal, calls to ask the provincial government about the pros and cons of letting younger teens vote — but the final say on any change will stay with council. The measure passed 7-6 after amendments.


More:



> University of Alberta political science professor Jim Lightbody said the move doesn’t mean much.
> 
> *“This is pandering,” he said.*
> 
> “Those who are making the case for it have to have a compelling case that somehow lowering the voting age will improve the political process at city hall.”
> 
> A more effective way to get more people involved in municipal politics, he said, would be to make sure political leaders’ positions are clearer and processes at city hall are more transparent.


Bold mine.

Ya think?! :yikes:

Related, too:


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> Unbelievable.
> 
> Only under Nenshi...
> 
> Calgary and 16-year-olds voting. It's back!
> 
> 
> 
> Wanna bet Red Rachel & Co. will be all over this?
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Haven't taken a high school social studies course yet, but fully capable of making an informed political decision.
> 
> Riiiiiight...
> 
> Related:
> 
> Calgary city council approves motion to explore lowering voting age to 16
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> Ya think?! :yikes:
> 
> Related, too:



Seems like a good way to waste more tax payers dollars. 3 years ago it was voted against 3:1, that is not a small margin. 

Many schools already have voting in them for elections, they do it all internally and teach while elections are going on. Students do not need a real vote for this and I would prefer real votes not used as a learning tool. 

If anything they should be teaching about apathy towards government. Voter turn out is way to low.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> If anything they should be teaching about apathy towards government. Voter turn out is way to(o) low.


I think poor voter turnout reflects a several things; the poor quality of most candidates, that none of the parties come at all close to reflecting personal values of many voters, that all parties put the interest of themselves and their cronies ahead of those who pay their salaries, lack of a none of the above option on the ballot....


----------



## Macfury

Municipal voting is typically based on enfranchising people who have a financial stake in the city, through property taxes. At 16, there's nothing there.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> At 16, there's nothing there.


Nailed it...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> Many schools already have voting in them for elections, they do it all internally and teach while elections are going on. Students do not need a real vote for this and I would prefer real votes not used as a learning tool.


Agree entirely.


----------



## FeXL

But old enough to vote!

We say it because people do it: Don't wash or reuse #condoms!


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> How does engaging in a trade agreement that is beneficial for _all_ parties make us anybody's bitch?


If you're talking about NAFTA, you're mistaken. It decidedly restructured Canada's economy, but while many of the economic analyses of the agreement conclude a neutral impact on Canada's growth, we continue to run a trade deficit against the USA (though that isn't the ultimate indicator of benefit in the trading relationship). More importantly is the decided weakness of local economies as a result of unrestricted globalization. The inability of Canadian governments at the federal / provincial / municipal levels to protect their economies from foreign competition. 

The most egregious example of this is the Wal-mart phenomenon: the big-box store arrives, sets up shop in a given community, and drives any competing business into insolvency. The net effect on employment is negative. Salaries are suppressed. Profits return to non-local shareholders who don't give a damn about local economic sustainability (just as has happened with the privatization of Nova Scotia Power, now a subsidiary of Emera, which has done the same throughout the Caribbean). These are profit-extracting operations, with the return in local salaries and service use insignificant "payback" to the community.

The challenge at the NAFTA level is in its reversing: the pain of restructuring to service global capital was hidden in business economic news stories lauding the great victory of the free trade agreement, with pie-in-the-sky guarantees that mass economic success for all was just around the corner. Free trade doesn't work like that. It benefits the same tiny slice of the population that enjoyed the riches of capitalism under the old system, now magnified a hundredfold. None of the economic analyses by the usual players talk about the health of domestic economy _in rebus_, but only in terms of the large numbers of cross-border trade. 

Multinational corporations that can use their economies of scale to undercut local businesses to deliver a given service or good inevitably weaken local economic actors. Cheap US milk coming across the border puts domestic milk producers at a disadvantage. To compete, the product has to be improved to justify the higher cost of domestic production that does not have an economy of scale advantage, or cheapen the product via inferior quality or the seeking of efficiencies through technological application.... in theory this is a positive, but in reality, particularly when it applies to foodstuffs, that represents a danger not only in economic terms but in public safety terms.

The Market is not intelligent. Nor is it this magic box that free-market economists claim it to be, with so many distorting factors. There is no economic playground utopia - there are bullies and larger players taking advantage of smaller players, with ever-increasing _antes_ to be able to even play in the box.

The concentration of corporate power is a *bad thing*. This is why we have anti trust laws to counter the natural tendency of capitalism to predation. As corporations become increasingly powerful, and democracies become increasingly vulnerable to the power of lobbyists, wall street, payoffs and the unrepresentative presence of the economic elite in the champers of political power, our ability to restrict corporations from owning everything around us becomes nullified. What sort of world do you want to live in?

Would you rather have a flawed democracy running the country, or a CEO and board of directors with shareholders who couldn't give a damn about whether your tiny piece of Canada is a wasteland due to a given business' operations?


----------



## FeXL

The simple truth is Canada needs markets for our product.

If we can't move enough product domestically, then we have to move it internationally. And, we can either do that _relatively_ inexpensively with our nearest international neighbours or we can add a $h!tload of freight costs as we ship overseas, either making us less competitive or making us eat a portion of the freight cost to remain competitive, resulting in less profit to our producers.

Was NAFTA perfect? 

Not even close. I still recall the calls of, "Free Canada, Trade Mulroney".

However, it was a step in the right direction.

The issue here is that our clueless leader, The Dope, sent in a clueless idiot, Purple Perogy girl (and her backup boy band), with a completely untenable position (social justice issues in a trade agreement), to p!$$ with the big dogs & she got her ass whipped & was sent home to lick her wounds.

We had warnings a year ago that the axe was going to drop on some of these issues. What was done? Same thing that's been done since the Prime Groper got elected: Nuttin'. A big fat zero.

If you believe The Dope even wanted a trade agreement in the first place.

Quite frankly, I think he's an even bigger idiot than I thought possible if he thinks this is going to garner votes next fall.



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah, blah.


A flawed democracy? Is that Prog speak for a PM & cadre who couldn't pour pee out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel?

Too polite by half.

One term Justin. A movement I can get behind.

The only issue is, Scheer is milquetoast. I didn't like Bernier for the simple reason that western Canada has always been screwed over by Kaybeck politicians, of any stripe. 

I'm rethinking my original position. At least he has a spine...



CubaMark said:


> Would you rather have a flawed democracy running the country?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL: your habit of replacing a poster’s words with “blah blah blah” is very poor form and shows a lack of maturity on your part. Mark put a lot of effort into his post and your dismissive gesture says much more about you than him. I’m sure you’ll now fire back with criticisms of me as you try to defend the practice, but it needs to be said.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> FeXL: your habit of replacing a poster’s words with “blah blah blah” is very poor form and shows a lack of maturity on your part. Mark put a lot of effort into his post and your dismissive gesture says much more about you than him. I’m sure you’ll now fire back with criticisms of me as you try to defend the practice, but it needs to be said.


Memmmmories....



Freddie_Biff said:


> Blah blah blah. Good enough for you?


----------



## FeXL

So, I guess there's at least a couple of ways I can address your post. I've always preferred the candid approach, myself.

First, if MF or Beej or SINC or Rps or eMacMan or a couple of other bodies on these boards who treat me in a civil fashion had made the very same observation about a reply I'd made to anybody but CM, I'd likely concede the point.

However...

Seeing as it's you, Freddie, who just called me an asshole a few days back, fukc you. And the hat you're wearing. And the horse you rode in on. You aren't in a position to be critical of anybody.

I'm not civil to anyone who is not civil to me.

Second, that's precisely why CM gets the treatment from me that he does. I don't care if he wrote the most beautifully researched, annotated, factually correct, impartial post these boards have ever seen. Until he stops being a dick to me, that's exactly the treatment he's going to receive.

Once again, I'm not civil to anyone who is not civil to me.

Third, CM isn't the only one on these boards who puts a lot of effort into his posts. Among others, I do. And, CM has done the very same thing with some of his responses to my posts: blah, blah, blah.

Curiously, your criticism has been absent in those cases. Once again, the Prog double standard rears its ugly head.

Now, go whine because I gave you the same sort of respect you gave me: none.



Freddie_Biff said:


> FeXL: your habit of replacing a poster’s words with “blah blah blah” is very poor form and shows a lack of maturity on your part. Mark put a lot of effort into his post and your dismissive gesture says much more about you than him. I’m sure you’ll now fire back with criticisms of me as you try to defend the practice, but it needs to be said.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Memmmmories....


Exactly.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> So, I guess there's at least a couple of ways I can address your post. I've always preferred the candid approach, myself.
> 
> 
> 
> First, if MF or Beej or SINC or Rps or eMacMan or a couple of other bodies on these boards who treat me in a civil fashion had made the very same observation about a reply I'd made to anybody but CM, I'd likely concede the point.
> 
> 
> 
> However...
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as it's you, Freddie, who just called me an asshole a few days back, fukc you. And the hat you're wearing. And the horse you rode in on. You aren't in a position to be critical of anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not civil to anyone who is not civil to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Second, that's precisely why CM gets the treatment from me that he does. I don't care if he wrote the most beautifully researched, annotated, factually correct, impartial post these boards have ever seen. Until he stops being a dick to me, that's exactly the treatment he's going to receive.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, I'm not civil to anyone who is not civil to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Third, CM isn't the only one on these boards who puts a lot of effort into his posts. Among others, I do. And, CM has done the very same thing with some of his responses to my posts: blah, blah, blah.
> 
> 
> 
> Curiously, your criticism has been absent in those cases. Once again, the Prog double standard rears its ugly head.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, go whine because I gave you the same sort of respect you gave me: none.




Predictable. You completely miss the point. Again. *yawn*


----------



## FeXL

<Whoosh...>

As do you, Freddie. 

Pro tip: Don't like how you're getting treated? Look in the mirror.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Whine... :-(


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> <Whoosh...>
> 
> 
> 
> As do you, Freddie.
> 
> 
> 
> Pro tip: Don't like how you're getting treated? Look in the mirror.




Such childish behaviour would get you suspended from a moderated forum. So go fcuk yourself.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Such childish behaviour would get you suspended from a moderated forum. So go fcuk yourself.


Ah yes, a teacher given the rights to the minds of today's children expressing his maturity and finess to influence your child. Damn shame that.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Ah yes, a teacher given the rights to the minds of today's children expressing his maturity and finess to influence your child. Damn shame that.


Keep poking the bear, Don. It’s what you do best.


----------



## FeXL

Such profanity in meatspace would get _you_ punched in the mouth. beejacon

But that's OK, Freddie. You go, girl. You hide behind the <snort> anonymity of the intertubes. Burn _all_ those bridges & don't forget to salt the earth before you're gone.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Such childish behaviour would get you suspended from a moderated forum. So go fcuk yourself.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

*Trump Wants People to 'Sit Up At Attention' For Him Like They Do For Kim Jong-Un*


“Hey, he’s the head of a country, and I mean, he’s the strong head — don’t let anyone think anything different,” Trump said during an interview on Friday on Fox and Friends. “He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”...

"And Friday’s Fox and Friends interview was not the first time that Trump voiced admiration for Kim. During a Tuesday interview with Fox News’ Sean Hannity, Trump said Kim’s “got a very good personality, he’s funny, and he’s very, very smart.”

*Donald Trump just can't stop saying nice things about Vladimir Putin*

1. "Congratulations to France, who played extraordinary soccer, on winning the 2018 World Cup. Additionally, congratulations to President Putin and Russia for putting on a truly great World Cup Tournament -- one of the best ever!"
2. "I'd have a very good relationship with President Putin if we spend time together."
3. "I think that we would have a chance to have a very good relationship with Russia and a very good chance -- a very good relationship with President Putin."
4. "You know what? Putin's fine. He's fine. We're all fine."
5. "I think I could have a very good relationship with President Putin."
6. "I called President Putin of Russia to congratulate him on his election victory (in past, Obama called him also). The Fake News Media is crazed because they wanted me to excoriate him. They are wrong! Getting along with Russia (and others) is a good thing, not a bad thing..."
7. "I believe that President Putin really feels, and he feels strongly, that he did not meddle in our election."
8. "But I think Putin and I — President Putin and I would have a great relationship, and that would be great for both countries.
9. "So you look at that, and you have President Putin very strongly, vehemently says he had nothing to do with that. Now, you're not going to get into an argument."
10. "President Putin and I have been discussing various things and I think it's going very well. We've some very, very good talks. We're going to have a talk now and obviously that will continue. But we look forward to a lot of good, positive things happening for Russia, for the United States and for everybody concerned."
11. "Look, it would be much easier for me to be tough on Russia, but then we're not going to make a deal."


----------



## FeXL

Well, that was an interesting edit, Freddie.

No more telling SINC to go fcuk himself?

And, you, a bear?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> Keep poking the bear, Don. It’s what you do best.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> That is simply untrue.


What part? The Dope & Barry or Trump?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Such profanity in meatspace would get _you_ punched in the mouth. beejacon
> 
> 
> 
> But that's OK, Freddie. You go, girl. You hide behind the <snort> anonymity of the intertubes. Burn _all_ those bridges & don't forget to salt the earth before you're gone.




What a hypocrite. You’re the one who started the whole “go fcuk yourself” thing. In any event, it’s not the profanity that breaks most forum’s policies so much as changing the words of the person you’re quoting. You can be so thick sometimes.


----------



## FeXL

Remember, I give what I get? You wouldn't have started it, I wouldn't have even participated.

You began by calling me an asshole. 

Want me to provide the salient links?

And, BTW, prior to that, assoholic. Whatever TF that means. Purdy sure it wasn't a compliment.



Freddie_Biff said:


> What a hypocrite.


Well, fortunately, Freddie, we no longer have the uneven hand of moderation on these boards.

Open season, no bag limit. Have at 'er!



Freddie_Biff said:


> ...so much as changing the words of the person you’re quoting.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> Both Trudeau and Obama have said they admired the ability of China to do just that. Trump has never said such a thing--usually the opposite.


Nobody mentioned China. What is your point? I mentioned Putin and Kim Jong-il.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Donald Trump just can't stop saying nice things about Vladimir Putin


First off, if you want to have any credibility on these boards, CNN is not some place to link to. Sorry.

Second, so he says "nice" things about Putin. So what?

Third, despite all the multi-year investigations at the highest levels, nobody anywhere has come up with any kind of evidence of collusion between Trump & the Russians. If there was any, these Trump Derangement Syndrome idiots would have found it. They didn't.

Fourth, Obama's Dem's and, in particular, Bill's Wife, were the ones dealing with the Russians. Uranium 1, anybody?


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> What part? The Dope & Barry or Trump?


I answered above.

I understand that you and MF are Trump supporters. I am not for many, many reasons. I don't want to go down the well trodden path of the past. So how about we just agree to disagree about everything on the subject of Trump. None of us will change each other's minds, so all further posts will be futile for all concerned. So despite provocation I for one will not discuss the matter of Trump with either of you any further. It is pointless for all of us.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I understand that you and MF are Trump supporters. I am not for many, many reasons. I don't want to go down the well trodden path of the past. So how about we just agree to disagree about everything on the subject of Trump. None of us will change each other's minds, so all further posts will be futile for all concerned. So despite provocation I for one will not discuss the matter of Trump with either of you any further. It is pointless for all of us.


Not wanting to speak for MF, but I'm not so much a Trump "supporter" as I am _not_ a Trump "hater".

There is much legitimate criticism that can be accurately levelled at him. However, he is head, shoulders, butt & ingrown toenail above Bill's Wife.

That said, he is doing what he said he would do during the campaign.

As far as attempting to change your mind, that is not something I normally do on these boards, anywhere. I present my argument & expect mature, objective minds to analyze the facts & make up their own minds.

That said, if you do make claims about Trump then, like anybody else on these boards, I expect them to be backed up with empirical evidence, not links to CNN where TDS reigns supreme and they'd lie to their own mothers to make Trump look bad.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I answered above.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that you and MF are Trump supporters. I am not for many, many reasons. I don't want to go down the well trodden path of the past. So how about we just agree to disagree about everything on the subject of Trump. None of us will change each other's minds, so all further posts will be futile for all concerned. So despite provocation I for one will not discuss the matter of Trump with either of you any further. It is pointless for all of us.



Good choice. And while you’re at it, link to CNN all you want. It’s a far more credible news source than Fox, Breitbart, Rebel Media or whatever other alt-right these guys like to worship. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> Not wanting to speak for MF, but I'm not so much a Trump "supporter" as I am _not_ a Trump "hater".
> 
> There is much legitimate criticism that can be accurately levelled at him. However, he is head, shoulders, butt & ingrown toenail above Bill's Wife.
> 
> That said, he is doing what he said he would do during the campaign.
> 
> As far as attempting to change your mind, that is not something I normally do on these boards, anywhere. I present my argument & expect mature, objective minds to analyze the facts & make up their own minds.
> 
> That said, if you do make claims about Trump then, like anybody else on these boards, I expect them to be backed up with empirical evidence, not links to CNN where TDS reigns supreme and they'd lie to their own mothers to make Trump look bad.


So who decides what is or is not "fake news". Is Fox "fake news", is the BBC "fake news", is Al Jazeera fake news etc., etc., etc. In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe that supports your point of view. 

So for you to say that if I want to have any credibility here I should not quote CNN it simply reveals your own point of view that you distrust CNN. But that in no way should reflect upon my credibility here except perhaps for you and some others. Remember when you point a finger at someone else there are three pointing back at you. Something that we should all remember lest we all be filled with hubris and egoism.


----------



## FeXL

Freddie, I jes' luvs it when you parade your ignorance on your sleeve like that.

'Sides, you wouldn't know what we link to anyways! You've noted yourself that you never click on the links. What does it matter to you?



Freddie_Biff said:


> And while you’re at it, link to CNN all you want. It’s a far more credible news source than Fox, Breitbart, Rebel Media or whatever other alt-right these guys like to worship.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Freddie, I jes' luvs it when you parade your ignorance on your sleeve like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sides, you wouldn't know what we link to anyways! You've noted yourself that you never click on the links. What does it matter to you?




You quote them. It’s bad enough to have to scroll through that.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So who decides what is or is not "fake news". Is Fox "fake news", is the BBC "fake news", is Al Jazeera fake news etc., etc., etc. In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe that supports your point of view.
> 
> So for you to say that if I want to have any credibility here I should not quote CNN it simply reveals your own point of view that you distrust CNN. But that in no way should reflect upon my credibility here except perhaps for you and some others. Remember when you point a finger at someone else there are three pointing back at you. Something that we should all remember lest we all be filled with hubris and egoism.


Fake news is just that: Outright lies. CNN is the worst example but there are no shortage of others. Generally the worst offenders are the ones owned by the left, the ones with TDS. That entails about 90% of the MSM in the US.

You can quote whatever & whomever you want. I don't care. Just expect any BS to be challenged. 

Regarding your credibility, I should clarify. I meant the credibility of your argument.

As far as 3 fingers pointing back at me, my conscience is clean.


----------



## FeXL

Really...

You can't tell who the quote is from unless you mouse over the link. I'm pretty sure you don't do that. Therefore, you're just making another crappy, ill-informed guess & missing the mark by a mile.

Prove me wrong: When was the last time I quote anything from Rebel Media?

Be specific.

'Sides, you could always put me on ignore. Again... :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> You quote them. It’s bad enough to have to scroll through that.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Fake news is just that: Outright lies. CNN is the worst example but there are no shortage of others. Generally the worst offenders are the ones owned by the left, the ones with TDS. That entails about 90% of the MSM in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> You can quote whatever & whomever you want. I don't care. Just expect any BS to be challenged.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding your credibility, I should clarify. I meant the credibility of your argument.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as 3 fingers pointing back at me, my conscience is clean.



Your conscience should be anything but clean. You are the most disagreeable and rudest person on these boards!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Really...
> 
> 
> 
> You can't tell who the quote is from unless you mouse over the link. I'm pretty sure you don't do that. Therefore, you're just making another crappy, ill-informed guess & missing the mark by a mile.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove me wrong: When was the last time I quote anything from Rebel Media?
> 
> 
> 
> Be specific.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sides, you could always put me on ignore. Again... :lmao:




Prove that what CNN reports is not true.

Also, it seems to me that the Rebel Media got shut down because they were...what's the word....FAKE NEWS. You seemed very fond of them however.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So who decides what is or is not "fake news". Is Fox "fake news", is the BBC "fake news", is Al Jazeera fake news etc., etc., etc. In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe that supports your point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> So for you to say that if I want to have any credibility here I should not quote CNN it simply reveals your own point of view that you distrust CNN. But that in no way should reflect upon my credibility here except perhaps for you and some others. Remember when you point a finger at someone else there are three pointing back at you. Something that we should all remember lest we all be filled with hubris and egoism.



Preach it! Lol "Hubris" and "Egoism" sound like good nicknames for a couple of posters I know.


----------



## eMacMan

When I first heard the term fake news it seemed very logical to think the reference was to CNN. After all they are run by and are the propaganda arm of the CIA.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> When I first heard the term fake news it seemed very logical to think the reference was to CNN. After all they are run by and are the propaganda arm of the CIA.



Cite?


----------



## Macfury

Trump seems perfectly capable of alternating criticism and flattery in alternating doses. He was calling Kim "Little rocket man" before the negotiation meeting.

As for Russia, I think it's a good thing for Russia and the U.S. to be on better terms.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> *Trump Wants People to 'Sit Up At Attention' For Him Like They Do For Kim Jong-Un*
> 
> 
> “Hey, he’s the head of a country, and I mean, he’s the strong head — don’t let anyone think anything different,” Trump said during an interview on Friday on Fox and Friends. “He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”...
> 
> "And Friday’s Fox and Friends interview was not the first time that Trump voiced admiration for Kim. During a Tuesday interview with Fox News’ Sean Hannity, Trump said Kim’s “got a very good personality, he’s funny, and he’s very, very smart.”
> 
> *Donald Trump just can't stop saying nice things about Vladimir Putin*
> 
> 1. "Congratulations to France, who played extraordinary soccer, on winning the 2018 World Cup. Additionally, congratulations to President Putin and Russia for putting on a truly great World Cup Tournament -- one of the best ever!"
> 2. "I'd have a very good relationship with President Putin if we spend time together."
> 3. "I think that we would have a chance to have a very good relationship with Russia and a very good chance -- a very good relationship with President Putin."
> 4. "You know what? Putin's fine. He's fine. We're all fine."
> 5. "I think I could have a very good relationship with President Putin."
> 6. "I called President Putin of Russia to congratulate him on his election victory (in past, Obama called him also). The Fake News Media is crazed because they wanted me to excoriate him. They are wrong! Getting along with Russia (and others) is a good thing, not a bad thing..."
> 7. "I believe that President Putin really feels, and he feels strongly, that he did not meddle in our election."
> 8. "But I think Putin and I — President Putin and I would have a great relationship, and that would be great for both countries.
> 9. "So you look at that, and you have President Putin very strongly, vehemently says he had nothing to do with that. Now, you're not going to get into an argument."
> 10. "President Putin and I have been discussing various things and I think it's going very well. We've some very, very good talks. We're going to have a talk now and obviously that will continue. But we look forward to a lot of good, positive things happening for Russia, for the United States and for everybody concerned."
> 11. "Look, it would be much easier for me to be tough on Russia, but then we're not going to make a deal."


----------



## Macfury

Is Rebel Media still in business? You haven't put up any of their links in awhile.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Good choice. And while you’re at it, link to CNN all you want. It’s a far more credible news source than Fox, Breitbart, Rebel Media or whatever other alt-right these guys like to worship.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> Macfury: why do you have to be such an asshole about this? I posted the clip to show some humility. You turn around and try to rub it in my face. I'M AGREEING WITH YOU FOR ****'S SAKE. Never expose a weakness to Macfury. He'll just capitalize on it. Happy Remembrance Day.





Freddie_Biff said:


> And you think wrong. Nice work, asshole.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Thank God I don't have to deal with you as a parent. You seem like a real winner. And no, I will invest no more time into understanding your posts than you give to mine. You are an asshole first and foremost, and there's absolutely nothing for me to gain from your bitterness. Have a nice fukcing evening.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Okay. Hypocrite, asshole.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. That's about what I thought you'd say. Once an asshole, always an asshole.





Freddie_Biff said:


> My, we hold on to our anger, don't we? You must keep all that stress stored in your shoulders somewhere. Good work on the research though; these quips still give me a chuckle. Good news: you're not an asshole or an idiot all the time.





Freddie_Biff said:


> There is no need to be an asshole about it, eMacMan. I admit my deficiencies. You could learn some manners.





Freddie_Biff said:


> And you, sir, are still an asshole. Hard to fix that.





Freddie_Biff said:


> And you would prefer to retain your assoholic demeanour. Yes, I get it. But the quality of discussion is far better and far healthier on the other forums I frequent, especially on political matters. You seem to think it is your God given right to insult people and pretend it's a dialogue. In short, you have a lot of growing up to do, mon ami.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Once an asshole, always an asshole. And one with two heads that barks too. Woof!





Freddie_Biff said:


> Such childish behaviour would get you suspended from a moderated forum. So go fcuk yourself.


The above has been brought to you as a _small_ sampling of a great & true poster on these boards, The Right, Honourable, Sir, Mr. Freddie_Biff.

Congratulations, Freddie! Your students would be proud...

:clap: 

Further to this...

I'm sorry, Freddie, was that post directed to you? I'm pretty sure that post was directed to someone entirely different than you. You wouldn't be responding to a post directed at someone else, would you? 'Cause I know you just recently criticized someone else for doing that _very_ thing to one of your posts.

How rude...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Your conscience should be anything but clean. You are the most disagreeable and rudest person on these boards!


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Your conscience should be anything but clean. You are the most disagreeable and rudest person on these boards!


Once again it should be noted this from the only guy here who frequently calls people arseholes. (Actually a more graphic term, but you get the idea.)


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> You are the most disagreeable and rudest person on these boards!.
Click to expand...

Whew. Looks like I dodged a bullet!


----------



## FeXL

To whom? You?

I think I'm busy, Freddie, I'm sure I have something pressing to do.

Ah, yes. The cat box! Coming, my fuzzy little darlings...

Tell ya what, Freddie. You answer the last 30 or 40 questions I've presented to you, I'll think about answering yours. Otherwise, yeah, not so much.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Prove that what CNN reports is not true.


Oh, no. They are very much extant.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Also, it seems to me that the Rebel Media got shut down because they were...what's the word....FAKE NEWS.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Keep poking the bear, Don. It’s what you do best.


So, yer a bear now? Only in the sense your posts are often simply too much to bear. Such as your response to your maturity I mentioned when you told me to, well, I will leave that obscene comment to die. Do they teach that in Education school? And more importantly do you teach your students the same behaviour as you demonstrate here time and again?


----------



## Beej

*Nostalgia*

Today's activity reminds me of ehmac from back in the day. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZLfasMPOU4[/ame]


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The above has been brought to you as a _small_ sampling of a great & true poster on these boards, The Right, Honourable, Sir, Mr. Freddie_Biff.
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations, Freddie! Your students would be proud...
> 
> 
> 
> :clap:
> 
> 
> 
> Further to this...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, Freddie, was that post directed to you? I'm pretty sure that post was directed to someone entirely different than you. You wouldn't be responding to a post directed at someone else, would you? 'Cause I know you just recently criticized someone else for doing that _very_ thing to one of your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> How rude...



It’s pathetic that you take the time to collect and index counterexamples to your own rudeness, but whatever turns you on I suppose.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> So, yer a bear now? Only in the sense your posts are often simply too much to bear. Such as your response to your maturity I mentioned when you told me to, well, I will leave that obscene comment to die. Do they teach that in Education school? And more importantly do you teach your students the same behaviour as you demonstrate here time and again?




Hey Don, how many inches did it rain yesterday?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey Don, how many inches did it rain yesterday?


About 10 drops here, just wind. Kinda like your posts.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> About 10 drops here, just wind. Kinda like your posts.



Hey, that was funny! Well done.


----------



## FeXL

Why, Freddie! I'm hurt. You mistake my intent entirely.

I'm merely illustrating to your teeming masses that maybe, just maybe, you aren't the paragon of politeness & civility you so falsely portray on these boards... 



Freddie_Biff said:


> It’s pathetic that you take the time to collect and index counterexamples to your own rudeness, but whatever turns you on I suppose.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Why, Freddie! I'm hurt. You mistake my intent entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm merely illustrating to your teeming masses that maybe, just maybe, you aren't the paragon of politeness & civility you so falsely portray on these boards...




Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## FeXL

Ouch! That hurt...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Freddie, unlike you, I've never portrayed myself as civil & polite. Brutally honest? Absolutely.

But start up a "Civil" thread & then proceed to call just about everybody on the boards an asshole or tell us to FO? Nope. Hypocrisy ain't my thing.

Find that mirror, Freddie.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Freddie, unlike you, I've never portrayed myself as civil & polite. Brutally honest? Absolutely.


I tend to use polite language but I am notably intolerant of intellectual laziness. No apologies for that.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Ouch! That hurt...
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> 
> 
> Freddie, unlike you, I've never portrayed myself as civil & polite. Brutally honest? Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> But start up a "Civil" thread & then proceed to call just about everybody on the boards an asshole or tell us to FO? Nope. Hypocrisy ain't my thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Find that mirror, Freddie.



*yawn* Anything else? You’ve whined about this many times already. It’s boring.


----------



## FeXL

Yer the one whining about me putting your incivility on display, Freddie... :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> You’ve whined about this many times already.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Purdy sure The Hairdo ain't never been accused of being overly analytical...

Justin Trudeau’s gamble on immigrant voters



> Immigrants can be an unpredictable bunch. Perhaps that’s to be expected from anyone willing to pack their lives into a suitcase and start anew halfway around the world. It’s an important attribute to survive and thrive, as most are fortunate to do in Canada. But it also leads to some unpleasant surprises for politicians, who, having welcomed them in, naively expect their undying electoral loyalty. Judging by his recent actions, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set to learn this the hard way.
> 
> The late Gérald Godin, first Immigration minister for the Parti Québécois in the 1980s, gladly welcomed francophone immigrants by the hundreds of thousands, envisioning a legion of new French Canadians that would gratefully and obediently vote for an independent Quebec. Instead, this “ethnic vote” dashed his dreams and voted en masse for a unified Canada in 1995.


More:



> While earning him points with the Davos circuit, Mr. Trudeau’s attitude toward the concept of citizenship may prove a great political liability with established immigrants. *Having shed years of blood, sweat and tears to earn their Canadian passports, many immigrant voters likely didn’t take kindly to their Prime Minister issuing, via Twitter, an open invitation to the rest of the world to collect theirs at the door.*


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s carbon tax dream, our nightmare



> Watching Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his minions impose their national carbon pricing plan on us is like watching children running through the hallway with scissors.
> 
> It’s all fun and games until somebody loses an eye, and we’re about to lose an eye.


More:



> Apparently, the Trudeau government has finally figured out that when you place a new cost of doing business on Canadian industries that their major competitors in the United States don’t have — a national carbon price — it makes our industries less competitive compared to those of our largest trading partner.


What's this?! What about saving the planet? The economy be damned!!!

Related:

‘We’re not done’; Carbon tax plans could still change more as feds weigh cost to Ontario businesses



> There could still be further changes to federal carbon tax rules set to go into effect next year.
> 
> In a briefing held with reporters in Ottawa on Thursday, senior officials from Environment and Climate Change Canada told reporters that the prospect of an ongoing trade war with the United States and considerations of how the federal plan could hit Ontario industries mean it’s possible the adjusted targets reported on Wednesday could shift again before they go into effect.


----------



## FeXL

I'd say they were getting their money's worth... :lmao:

The NDP Is So Broke, Jagmeet Singh Isn't Being Paid



> NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh is still refusing a paycheque due to the dire financial state of his party.
> 
> The NDP received less than a million dollars in fundraising for the second quarter of this year, *according to Elections Canada*. That’s compared to over $3 million the Liberal party raised, and over $6 million the Conservative party fundraised in the same quarter, which ended in June. As of July, the party still had roughly $3-million in debt from the 2015 federal election.


And barely a year until the next election puts them into 7 or 8 figure debt once again.

Good!

Perhaps Red Rachel will share her pension with him after she gets the shoe here in Albertistan. Isn't that what a good commie does?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Jews ain't the only ones...

Jewish groups express concern after Liberals announce new funding for Palestinians



> Jewish advocacy groups are again raising concerns that new Canadian funding for Palestinians must come with sufficient oversight, so that money is not channelled to terrorists.
> 
> The renewed concerns came following a July 29 announcement from International Development Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau that *Canada will contribute over $50 million in new support for Palestinians*, “focusing on urgent humanitarian needs and on economic growth that works for everyone.”
> 
> Canada’s assistance will go to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, even though the latter territory is governed by Hamas, which this country lists as a terrorist organization.


Bold mine.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I'd say they were getting their money's worth... :lmao:


Someone donate a wrecking ball so he can work faster!


----------



## eMacMan

I have and continue to have big issues with the entire trans gender BS. Intentionally or otherwise this article certainly provides more than a little ammunition to back my views.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/cana...lter/wcm/930818a7-d14a-44e8-a0ec-4f6f80f40800



> *Forced to share a room with transgender woman in Toronto shelter, sex abuse victim files human rights complaint*
> 
> But when Hanna called the Human Rights Legal Support Centre, they said that she was the one engaged in discrimination for describing her new roommate as a 'man'


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> I have and continue to have big issues with the entire trans gender BS. Intentionally or otherwise this article certainly provides more than a little ammunition to back my views.
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/cana...lter/wcm/930818a7-d14a-44e8-a0ec-4f6f80f40800



That's definitely a complicated case. How do you think the staff at the shelter should have responded?


----------



## Macfury

Not complicated. They should have told the bio-man to go to a men's shelter.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That's definitely a complicated case. How do you think the staff at the shelter should have responded?


----------



## SINC

Yep. Two genders. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional or a pervert.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> I have and continue to have big issues with the entire trans gender BS. Intentionally or otherwise this article certainly provides more than a little ammunition to back my views.
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/cana...lter/wcm/930818a7-d14a-44e8-a0ec-4f6f80f40800





Freddie_Biff said:


> That's definitely a complicated case. How do you think the staff at the shelter should have responded?


In order to find that complicated you would have to be a blind worshipper at the alter of political correctness. In this case and many others common decency and common sense should have trumped political correctness by a country mile. 

For the extremely obtuse. You don't house a female rape victim with someone who has a penis and y chromosomes. It really is that simple.


----------



## SINC

This whole gender thing is a scam foisted upon society. There are only two genders unless one is born with both sets of genitals and even then there are but a combination of the two. Anyone who claims to feel they are something other need the help of a psychiatrist.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Yep. Two genders. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional or a pervert.


I think we need to understand what the concept of gender is. For virtually all of us we look at plumbing, so to speak. The mental aspect of gender identification is a little more complex. In the case above it was clearly a plumbing issue, and while the “in progress” had a right.......what the OHR missed I think was that the woman who shared the room had rights as well...... one which for generations was you don’t mix plumbing without consent. The optic for this is terrible and does nothing to help the LGBT community.


----------



## Macfury

The mental aspect of gender is strictly personal and should not impinge reality around you. If you think you're a unicorn, your personal thoughts alone should not create special rights.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> the LGBT community.


Out of date terminology. Exclusionary. Problematic!
Useful Terms to Understand – Halifax Sexual Health Centre


> WHAT DO THE LETTERS “2SLGBTIQQA” STAND FOR?
> 
> These letters stand for Two-Spirit, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex, Queer, Questioning, and Asexual, among many more sexual and gender identities.


https://www.ryerson.ca/diversity-self-id/2017/04/update-your-diversity-self-id-by-march-31/


> The LGBTQ* acronym has been changed to 2SLGBTQ+ and “transexual” and “transgender” are now combined under “trans”. We’ve also added “non-binary” and “genderqueer”.
> 
> Additionally, “visible minorities/racialized people” has been changed to “racialized people”.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> The mental aspect of gender is strictly personal and should not impinge reality around you. If you think you're a unicorn, your personal thoughts alone should not create special rights.


To a certain degree I agree, however our governments have moved to a “self-identify” mandate on many things, which in the long run impacts legislation.

I think, though, we agree on this issue. For me the plumbing rule is the simplest.


----------



## Rps

Beej said:


> Out of date terminology. Exclusionary. Problematic!
> Useful Terms to Understand – Halifax Sexual Health Centre
> 
> 
> https://www.ryerson.ca/diversity-self-id/2017/04/update-your-diversity-self-id-by-march-31/


Yeah I know . They ran out of letters so now they add numbers. We could get into all sorts of arguments here. However I’m not gonna go there today. That said, I personally think the more letters you add the more confusing this issue will become.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> The mental aspect of gender is strictly personal and should not impinge reality around you. If you think you're a unicorn, your personal thoughts alone should not create special rights.





Rps said:


> To a certain degree I agree, however our governments have moved to a “self-identify” mandate on many things, which in the long run impacts legislation.
> 
> I think, though, we agree on this issue. For me the plumbing rule is the simplest.


The mental aspect of anything is strictly personal, we cannot read other persons minds, and in terms of human social relations we create the reality around us. Our social reality is in constant flux and therefore we continually make adjustments, both to and fro over the history of **** sapiens existence.

Regarding trans-gender people here is a very good article that should be read by, basically all people, it is from the American Psychiatric Association:

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

So regarding the reality around us it is illogical to think that because there are very few people who think they are “unicorns” (even though it has been proven that they exist) that we as a civilized society should not accept them for who they are and if need be provide for their special needs, like we do with a multitude of individuals who are not like “the rest of us”. The same could be said of a multitude of religious or other beliefs.

Inclusivity has been (to a certain extent) a characteristic of what it means to be Canadian. The world at large recognizes us for that and I am proud of that.

I used to feel differently until I met and became friends with a couple of women who were in the process of transitioning to become male. Their stories broke my heart and after that I had nothing but compassion for them. It makes all the difference in the world when you actually meet, talk to and become friends with an individual, at least for me.

I have posted this saying many times here, but it is apropos to this subject:

I hear and I forget
I see and I remember
But when I begin to think, act and experience
Then I understand


----------



## Macfury

None of this means that a woman should be forced to share her sleeping quarters in a woman's shelter with a man.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> None of this means that a woman should be forced to share her sleeping quarters in a woman's shelter with a man.


She wasn't forced she could go elsewhere, she was free to leave at anytime. Also the man was transitioning to become female, I would think that the woman involved would have some compassion for the person in transition and not feel that they were a threat, but apparently not. I agree that the organization made a bad call and could have done things differently and better.

This is difficult subject for all those involved, but these are the times in which we live, our social structure has changed and there is no going back. The jeannie is out of the bottle. Some may wish to get the jeannie back into the bottle, put a cork in it and think that everything will go back to their comfortable status que. Sadly for them it isn't going to happen.


----------



## Beej

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So regarding the reality around us it is illogical to think that because there are very few people who think they are “unicorns” (even though it has been proven that they exist)


Same understanding for otherkin? 

A lot of what you said makes sense, but it is unconstrained. Is there any point at which it is acknowledged that going along with the personal belief is more harmful than not? I don't think trans is beyond that point, given the data, but your wording did not allow for any limit on the "strictly personal" being accommodated for outside of one's personal space.

Sometimes the special need is not simply to hear, "yes, what you say is true".

But that's an atheist perspective.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> The mental aspect of anything is strictly personal, we cannot read other persons minds, and in terms of human social relations we create the reality around us. Our social reality is in constant flux and therefore we continually make adjustments, both to and fro over the history of **** sapiens existence.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding trans-gender people here is a very good article that should be read by, basically all people, it is from the American Psychiatric Association:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
> 
> 
> 
> So regarding the reality around us it is illogical to think that because there are very few people who think they are “unicorns” (even though it has been proven that they exist) that we as a civilized society should not accept them for who they are and if need be provide for their special needs, like we do with a multitude of individuals who are not like “the rest of us”. The same could be said of a multitude of religious or other beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> Inclusivity has been (to a certain extent) a characteristic of what it means to be Canadian. The world at large recognizes us for that and I am proud of that.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to feel differently until I met and became friends with a couple of women who were in the process of transitioning to become male. Their stories broke my heart and after that I had nothing but compassion for them. It makes all the difference in the world when you actually meet, talk to and become friends with an individual, at least for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I have posted this saying many times here, but it is apropos to this subject:
> 
> 
> 
> I hear and I forget
> 
> I see and I remember
> 
> But when I begin to think, act and experience
> 
> Then I understand




That’s a helpful article, thanks, Steve. Somehow I don’t think you’re going to see a lot of sympathy for gender dysphoria or transgender rights in this forum except for the enlightened few (and I think you know who they are). It’s an issue I come to terms with often as a teacher and I meet a student who presents as female but who wishes to go by a male name or vice-versa. The issue is certainly more complex than some are giving credit to.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> She wasn't forced she could go elsewhere, she was free to leave at anytime. Also the man was transitioning to become female, I would think that the woman involved would have some compassion for the person in transition and not feel that they were a threat, but apparently not. I agree that the organization made a bad call and could have done things differently and better.
> 
> 
> 
> This is difficult subject for all those involved, but these are the times in which we live, our social structure has changed and there is no going back. The jeannie is out of the bottle. Some may wish to get the jeannie back into the bottle, put a cork in it and think that everything will go back to their comfortable status que. Sadly for them it isn't going to happen.




Also, as my wife and daughters noted, seven months seemed like an awfully long time for the woman in question to be living in a shelter.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> None of this means that a woman should be forced to share her sleeping quarters in a woman's shelter with a man.



That’s the heart of your problem with this case: you don’t view a transgender woman as anything other than a man.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s the heart of your problem with this case: you don’t view a transgender woman as anything other than a man.


The issue is not how any of us thinks of him or it or whatever. It's what the woman who had to share the room with it thinks and she clearly thought he was a man.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s the heart of your problem with this case: you don’t view a transgender woman as anything other than a man.


The issue with this case was the woman in the hostel had been abused and had some traumatic issues. When the transgendered individual was housed with her, that individual presented more male, and in talking with the woman stated some sexually oriented language. To a woman who was dealing with PTSD, the roomie was more man than woman and in her mind set was a threat. There was some reporting that the woman had been raped and that caused much of her PTSD. The OHR board missed, in my opinion, her right to feel safe..

We can argue the various points, and gain insight in the trans-mind set ( thanx to an interesting article posted by imbackforawhile .) but I don’t see that as relevant here. A woman felt threatened and when she complained she was tagged with discrimination.


----------



## Macfury

Every ounce of DNA this person possesses bears the signature "MAN." No amount of surgery, disguises, wigs or costuming can change that.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s the heart of your problem with this case: you don’t view a transgender woman as anything other than a man.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Every ounce of DNA this person possesses bears the signature "MAN." No amount of surgery, disguises, wigs or costuming can change that.


I didn’t know you had a sample of their DNA!


----------



## Macfury

I'm taking this one on faith. Nobody has yet been able to change their DNA from male to female or vice versa. it would have been in the papers!



Rps said:


> I didn’t know you had a sample of their DNA!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> The issue with this case was the woman in the hostel had been abused and had some traumatic issues. When the transgendered individual was housed with her, that individual presented more male, and in talking with the woman stated some sexually oriented language. To a woman who was dealing with PTSD, the roomie was more man than woman and in her mind set was a threat. There was some reporting that the woman had been raped and that caused much of her PTSD. The OHR board missed, in my opinion, her right to feel safe..
> 
> 
> 
> We can argue the various points, and gain insight in the trans-mind set ( thanx to an interesting article posted by imbackforawhile .) but I don’t see that as relevant here. A woman felt threatened and when she complained she was tagged with discrimination.




I’m going to assume the trans woman had also been abused which was why she was in the shelter, although it seems to me if memory serves that this shelter was more for people with addictions. I think it is a clear case of what to do when one woman’s rights go up against another woman’s rights. All women are equal, but some are more equal than others.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Every ounce of DNA this person possesses bears the signature "MAN." No amount of surgery, disguises, wigs or costuming can change that.



So you don’t believe trans women exist?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> So you don’t believe trans women exist?


A woman with a dick is a man who needs help.


----------



## Macfury

I believe some men surgically alter themselves to look like women.



Freddie_Biff said:


> So you don’t believe trans women exist?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> A woman with a dick is a man who needs help.



Yep. That’s what I thought you’d say.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I believe some men surgically alter themselves to look like women.




So again, you believe trans women (and by extension trans men) don’t exist. Is that correct? If that’s what you believe, it explains a lot of other things too. I assume you would also believe that trans individuals do not have the right to be treated as members of the gender they identify as. Would that be correct as well?


----------



## Macfury

Too bad you can't use these predictive powers on the stock market!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yep. That’s what I thought you’d say.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> The issue is not how any of us thinks of him or it or whatever. It's what the woman who had to share the room with it thinks and she clearly thought he was a man.




Ah contraire, amigo; what we think has everything to do with how people are treated in society. If people treat others in real life the way they describe n this forum, it’s not hard to understand why certain groups face constant persecution. As a community, enlightened we are not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Too bad you can't use these predictive powers on the stock market!



The stock market is much less predictable.


----------



## Macfury

A "trans man" or a "trans woman" are people of their original sex disguised by surgery or other means to resemble a person of the opposite sex.



Freddie_Biff said:


> So again, you believe trans women (and by extension trans men) don’t exist. Is that correct? If that’s what you believe, it explains a lot of other things too. I assume you would also believe that trans individuals do not have the right to be treated as members of the gender they identify as. Would that be correct as well?


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> The issue is not how any of us thinks of him or it or whatever. It's what the woman who had to share the room with it thinks and she clearly thought he was a man.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Ah contraire, amigo; what we think has everything to do with how people are treated in society. If people treat others in real life the way they describe n this forum, it’s not hard to understand why certain groups face constant persecution. As a community, enlightened we are not.


IOW that poor woman was simply collateral damage, sacrificed as it were on the alter of political correctness. Too bad your empathetic reflex has no place for, or sensitivity towards the woman who had the misfortune to get in the way of your views.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> A "trans man" or a "trans woman" are people of their original sex disguised by surgery or other means to resemble a person of the opposite sex.


Exactly. 100% correct.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> A "trans man" or a "trans woman" are people of their original sex disguised by surgery or other means to resemble a person of the opposite sex.



I believe you’re confusing “sex” and “gender.” Sex refers to your plumbing, while gender is a performance. It’s definitely a lot more complicated than simply what genetalia you were born with—that is, if you want to be attuned to legal policy in 2018.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> IOW that poor woman was simply collateral damage, sacrificed as it were on the alter of political correctness. Too bad your empathetic reflex has no place for, or sensitivity towards the woman who had the misfortune to get in the way of your views.



Wrong again. I have sympathy for both of them. That’s why it’s a complicated case. For some others, sympathy only appears to extend to one of the individuals concerned.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Wrong again. I have sympathy for both of them. That’s why it’s a complicated case. For some others, sympathy only appears to extend to one of the individuals concerned.


If these two had been placed in their proper designation in the first place, there would be no problem nor sympathy required. It's a man made problem created solely by the do-gooders who are slowly ruining society.


----------



## Macfury

It's not complicated. Nature permanently branded their DNA, no matter how they try to disguise themselves. Not just their genitals but every cell in their body. 

If someone believes they're a horse, they can wear a bit and bridle and undergo surgery so they look more like a horse. You can even get a sympathetic progressive government to force workplaces to transform an office into a stall--if you want to get attuned to legal policy. You may even have the utmost sympathy for this person. However, nothing has changed. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> I believe you’re confusing “sex” and “gender.” Sex refers to your plumbing, while gender is a performance. It’s definitely a lot more complicated than simply what genetalia you were born with—that is, if you want to be attuned to legal policy in 2018.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Beej said:


> Same understanding for otherkin?
> 
> A lot of what you said makes sense, but it is unconstrained. Is there any point at which it is acknowledged that going along with the personal belief is more harmful than not? I don't think trans is beyond that point, given the data, but your wording did not allow for any limit on the "strictly personal" being accommodated for outside of one's personal space.
> 
> Sometimes the special need is not simply to hear, "yes, what you say is true".
> 
> But that's an atheist perspective.


I see what you are saying and it is true I did not list constraints because I thought those constraints were fairly obvious as most are governed by laws and regulations.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's not complicated. Nature permanently branded their DNA, no matter how they try to disguise themselves. Not just their genitals but every cell in their body.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone believes they're a horse, they can wear a bit and bridle and undergo surgery so they look more like a horse. You can even get a sympathetic progressive government to force workplaces to transform an office into a stall--if you want to get attuned to legal policy. You may even have the utmost sympathy for this person. However, nothing has changed.



Your misunderstanding of gender dysphoria issue is truly astounding.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It's not complicated. Nature permanently branded their DNA, no matter how they try to disguise themselves. Not just their genitals but every cell in their body.
> 
> If someone believes they're a horse, they can wear a bit and bridle and undergo surgery so they look more like a horse. You can even get a sympathetic progressive government to force workplaces to transform an office into a stall--if you want to get attuned to legal policy. You may even have the utmost sympathy for this person. However, nothing has changed.


You could and maybe should substitute ass for horse in the analogy, but it does describe it nicely. An individual can believe themselves whatever they like, but it stops where that belief treads on others. He should not use a communal women's bathroom or the women's lockers at the local swimming pool. He certainly should never have been housed with a woman at a women's crisis center.


----------



## Macfury

I understand it perfectly!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Your misunderstanding of gender dysphoria issue is truly astounding.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I understand it perfectly!




No, no you don't. You don't understand it at all. You'd prefer to talk about unicorns and imaginary beings.,You think your gross little oversimplification for your own brain explains everything, but it doesn't. Gender is a continuum, not an either/or bin thing.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> You could and maybe should substitute ass for horse in the analogy, but it does describe it nicely. An individual can believe themselves whatever they like, but it stops where that belief treads on others. He should not use a communal women's bathroom or the women's lockers at the local swimming pool. He certainly should never have been housed with a woman at a women's crisis center.



In other words, you don't believe transgender men and women exist. Is that correct?


----------



## SINC

Of course they exist. They're sick people who have disguised themselves as the opposite gender.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Of course they exist. They're sick people who have disguised themselves as the opposite gender.




No disguise necessary. It’s not about the plumbing. A transgender individual can be as simple as someone who feels they’ve been raised as the wrong gender from what they feel inside. Are tom boys “sick people” too in your view?


----------



## Macfury

I understand it perfectly. The problems occur when people expect the "continuum" of their subjective experience to imposed on objective reality. The "trans-black" person wants to be recognized by other as black. The trans-disabled person wants others to recognize a non-existent disability. You may very well be someone who is uncertain about their gender, but it is of very little consequence in the objective world.



Freddie_Biff said:


> No, no you don't. You don't understand it at all. You'd prefer to talk about unicorns and imaginary beings.,You think your gross little oversimplification for your own brain explains everything, but it doesn't. Gender is a continuum, not an either/or bin thing.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I understand it perfectly. The problems occur when people expect the "continuum" of their subjective experience to imposed on objective reality. The "trans-black" person wants to be recognized by other as black. The trans-disabled person wants others to recognize a non-existent disability. You may very well be someone who is uncertain about their gender, but it is of very little consequence in the objective world.



No, you don't understand, or you wouldn't keep bringing up non-gender examples to understand gender. You should really do a little reading up on the subject. I was ignorant once as you are now until I did a little research. Gender is a performance, and it varies from culture to culture as well, not to mention from one generation to the next. There was a time when it was forbidden for women to wear "man" clothes like t-shirts and jeans, let alone too work "man" jobs like construction or firefighting. Those gender expectations have changed. You keep confusing gender and sexuality.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> No disguise necessary. It’s not about the plumbing. A transgender individual can be as simple as someone who feels they’ve been raised as the wrong gender from what they feel inside. Are tom boys “sick people” too in your view?


Nope, they were a normal thing for about one in 200 girls when I was growing up. They would rather be playing ball with us guys than dressing up dolls with their gender. Nice girls all, but never once did they alter body parts or force anything on us then in terms of rights. Most of 'em got married and had kids. They made some of the best sports coaches ever for both boys and girls as adults and nobody messes with Mrs. X, not the kids or hubby either. The world was a better place for them.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> Nope, they were a normal thing for about one in 200 girls when I was growing up. They would rather be playing ball with us guys than dressing up dolls with their gender. Nice girls all, but never once did they alter body parts or force anything on us then in terms of rights. Most of 'em got married and had kids. They made some of the best sports coaches ever for both boys and girls as adults and nobody messes with Mrs. X, not the kids or hubby either. The world was a better place for them.


Now lemme add this:

Lemme give you another example of gender and tolerance, something that today's progs have no clue about.

In the Saskatchewan city of 16,000 souls I grew up in between my birth in 1944 and my departure from home in 1969, now a married man for four years, I was taught most of what I know about life. Not only by my parents and extended family, but by the actions of the people who lived around me.

Let me tell you the story of a woman named Mabel and her 'sister' who lived together in a small home about two blocks from our home when I first began to know her at about age six in 1950.

I never knew, nor cared if her partner was really her sister or not. Why? Because it didn't matter. Mabel owned a pair of draft horses which lived in a small barn at the back of her home. There was no plumbing in those days so the outhouse was beside the barn. She made her living by working those horses every day of the year.

She ploughed gardens all spring long, cut hay all summer long wherever she could to stockpile hay for this horses all winter long. She would haul anything and everything anywhere for folks with those two faithful horses.

Mabel was a small woman, perhaps 5 feet tall, but she was 10 feet tall in my mind. She dressed in men's work overalls complete with a man's plaid shirt. She wore men's work boots and a man's cap in the style of the day. Her 'sister' always wore a dress and sat proudly beside her on the buggy seat when they made their way to the city centre for groceries and left the horses in a back lane while they shopped. No one ever toyed with those horses. They were off limits, after all they were Mabel's horses and she was a respected member of the city.

Mabel picked up us kids and gave us rides to school in her buggy more times than I can recall, always a ready smile and a cheery disposition.

Of course she was gay and we always doubted she really had a sister. But she was loved and respected and a part of all our lives.

Never once in the two decades I spent there did anyone ever have a mean thing to say about such a wonderful person.

She taught me a lesson I will never forget. That is that some people are different by choice and that is fine by me.

She passed forty years ago and I happened to be home visiting my parents. I went to her funeral and I cried. She had been so kind to me and my friends that she deserved the tears I shed.

Fast forward to today and I still think of Mabel. She didn't march in parades carrying a rainbow demanding her place in society. She already had her place and she had it because people knew how to treat people like Mabel back then. With love, admiration and the knowledge that she was part of us and had a respected place in our society.

Society has gone to hell in recent years by the demands of all the Mabels who now demand respect and few of them have earned like Mable did.

She loved us all and we loved her back. I wish I could say the same for the generation that followed her with nothing but pride and demands. They are their own worst enemies and turn more against them with their parades and rainbows than they win by being human beings with a difference.

And that is what true gender is all about. Nothing more and nothing less. Too bad so many progs just don't get it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Nope, they were a normal thing for about one in 200 girls when I was growing up. They would rather be playing ball with us guys than dressing up dolls with their gender. Nice girls all, but never once did they alter body parts or force anything on us then in terms of rights. Most of 'em got married and had kids. They made some of the best sports coaches ever for both boys and girls as adults and nobody messes with Mrs. X, not the kids or hubby either. The world was a better place for them.



So imagine a tom boy who isn’t satisfied with not just not dressing up in girly clothes, but who honestly feels they should have been the opposite gender. Whether they get an operation or not is secondary; the person who feels that they should be the other gender, male or female, are what are termed transgender people. They deserve to be treated with just as much respect and consideration as any other individual. Some tom boys become lesbians, some don’t. Some become transgendered, some don’t. But you’d better believe transgender is a real thing and the times are a-changin’, whether we like it or not. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> So imagine a tom boy who isn’t satisfied with not just not dressing up in girly clothes, but who honestly feels they should have been the opposite gender. Whether they get an operation or not is secondary; the person who feels that they should be the other gender, male or female, are what are termed transgender people. They deserve to be treated with just as much respect and consideration as any other individual. Some tom boys become lesbians, some don’t. Some become transgendered, some don’t. But you’d better believe transgender is a real thing and the times are a-changin’, whether we like it or not.


It ain't times that are changin' Freddie. Its' people like you and it ain't for the better!

Didja even read the post above?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Now lemmed add this:
> 
> 
> 
> Lemme give you another example of gender and tolerance, something that today's progs have no clue about.
> 
> 
> 
> In the Saskatchewan city of 16,000 souls I grew up in between my birth in 1944 and my departure from home in 1969, now a married man for four years, I was taught most of what I know about life. Not only by my parents and extended family, but by the actions of the people who lived around me.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me tell you the story of a woman named Mabel and her 'sister' who lived together in a small home about two blocks from our home when I first began to know her at about age six in 1950.
> 
> 
> 
> I never knew, nor cared if her partner was really her sister or not. Why? Because it didn't matter. Mabel owned a pair of draft horses which lived in a small barn at the back of her home. There was no plumbing in those days so the outhouse was beside the barn. She made her living by working those horses every day of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> She ploughed gardens all spring long, cut hay all summer long wherever she could to stockpile hay for this horses all winter long. She would haul anything and everything any where for folks with those two faithful horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Mabel was a small woman, perhaps 5 feet tall, but she was 10 feet tall in my mind. She dressed in men's work overalls complete with a man's plaid shirt. She wore men's work boots and a man's cap in the style of the day. Her 'sister' always wore a dress and sat proudly beside her on the buggy seat when they made their way to the city centre for groceries and left the horses in a back lane while they shopped. No one ever toyed with those horses. They were off limits, after all they were Mabel's horses and she was a respected member of the city.
> 
> 
> 
> Mabel picked up us kids and gave us rides to school in her buggy more times than I can recall, always a ready smile and a cheery disposition.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course she was gay and we always doubted she really had a sister. But she was loved and respected and a part of all our lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Never once in the two decades I spent there did anyone ever have a mean thing to say about such a wonderful person.
> 
> 
> 
> She taught me a lesson I will never forget. That is that some people are different by choice and that is fine by me.
> 
> 
> 
> She passed forty years ago and I happened to be home visiting my parents. I went to her funeral and I cried. She had been so kind to me and my friends that she deserved the tears I shed.
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to today and I still think of Mabel. She didn't march in parades carrying a rainbow demanding her place in society. She already had her place and she had it because people knew how to treat people like Mabel back then. With love, admiration and the knowledge that she was part of us and had a respected place in our society.
> 
> 
> 
> Society has gone to hell in recent years by the demands of all the Mabels who now demand respect and few of them have earned like Mable did.
> 
> 
> 
> She loved us all and we loved her back. I wish I could say the same for the generation that followed her with nothing but pride and demands. They are their own worst enemies and turn more against them with their parades and rainbows than they win by being human beings with a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is what true gender is all about. Nothing more and nothing less. Too bad so many progs just don't get it.



Thanks for sharing your experience with Mabel with us, Don. She sounds like she was a hell of a good neighbor.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> It ain't times that are changin' Freddie. Its' people like you and it ain't for the better!
> 
> 
> 
> Didja even read the post above?



Now it’s a shame you had to say that. I posted what I wrote before you posted your story about Mabel. Try perhaps to keep the same open mind you used to have as a youngster in Saskatchewan.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience with Mabel with us, Don. She sounds like she was a hell of a good neighbor.


She was and if today's gay whatever community was less militant and 'proud' they too would gain the respect of society, not pee them off like they continue to do every day.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Now it’s a shame you had to say that. I posted what I wrote before you posted your story about Mabel. Try perhaps to keep the same open mind you used to have as a youngster in Saskatchewan.


I do have the same open mind I did back then Frank, it's just that I don't have a hole in my head like so many of you folks do.


----------



## Macfury

What does any of this have to do with a man being housed in a women's shelter?



Freddie_Biff said:


> So imagine a tom boy who isn’t satisfied with not just not dressing up in girly clothes, but who honestly feels they should have been the opposite gender. Whether they get an operation or not is secondary; the person who feels that they should be the other gender, male or female, are what are termed transgender people. They deserve to be treated with just as much respect and consideration as any other individual. Some tom boys become lesbians, some don’t. Some become transgendered, some don’t. But you’d better believe transgender is a real thing and the times are a-changin’, whether we like it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I do have the same open mind I did back then Frank, it's just that I don't have a hole in my head like so many of you folks do.




Again, with the insults. Clearly you don’t know me at all.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> What does any of this have to do with a man being housed in a women's shelter?



Well, it certainly has nothing to do with unicorns either. And it wasn’t a man, it was a trans woman. There’s a difference you clearly still don’t understand.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Now lemme add this:
> 
> Lemme give you another example of gender and tolerance, something that today's progs have no clue about.


So much to say about what's been written on these pages, but I'm frankly exhausted dealing with social conservatives who think "the good old days" actually existed.

But more than that, I'm saddened to see SINC adopting the vernacular and the attitude of the least desirable citizen of ehMac. The continuing downward spiral of discourse in this forum is disappointing.

XX)


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> So much to say about what's been written on these pages, but I'm frankly exhausted dealing with social conservatives who think "the good old days" actually existed.
> 
> 
> 
> But more than that, I'm saddened to see SINC adopting the vernacular and the attitude of the least desirable citizen of ehMac. The continuing downward spiral of discourse in this forum is disappointing.
> 
> 
> 
> XX)




One crosses their fingers in hopes of growth and awareness, but it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.


----------



## Macfury

The person has gender dysphoria. And is a man.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Well, it certainly has nothing to do with unicorns either. And it wasn’t a man, it was a trans woman. There’s a difference you clearly still don’t understand.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> So imagine a tom boy who isn’t satisfied with not just not dressing up in girly clothes, but who honestly feels they should have been the opposite gender. Whether they get an operation or not is secondary; the person who feels that they should be the other gender, male or female, are what are termed transgender people. They deserve to be treated with just as much respect and consideration as any other individual. Some tom boys become lesbians, some don’t. Some become transgendered, some don’t. But you’d better believe transgender is a real thing and the times are a-changin’, whether we like it or not.





Macfury said:


> What does any of this have to do with a man being housed in a women's shelter?


Absolutely nothing. As Don said respect has to be earned. I recall a black jerk I worked with about 40 years ago. One day out of the blue he had the gall to say:"You don't respect me because I'm black." 

Now I had been unusually tolerant of this idiot because he was black, so that really set me off. I'm not that big but the next thing I knew I had grabbed him by the collar and lifted him clean off the floor. I looked him square in the eye and told him point blank: "If you want my respect you'll have to earn it, just like a white man."

That is still true today. There are no free passes because you happen to be gay, black, female, or completely unsure of your gender. Respect has to be earned.

Anyways I do wonder what Freddie's wife thinks of sacrificing that woman on the alter of political correctness, then shrugging her off as collateral damage.

The article is still here;
https://calgaryherald.com/news/cana...lter/wcm/930818a7-d14a-44e8-a0ec-4f6f80f40800
Why not have her read it Freddie, then tell us what her opinion is.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> So much to say about what's been written on these pages, but I'm frankly exhausted dealing with social conservatives who think "the good old days" actually existed.
> 
> But more than that, I'm saddened to see SINC adopting the vernacular and the attitude of the least desirable citizen of ehMac. The continuing downward spiral of discourse in this forum is disappointing.
> 
> XX)


What are you referring to? My story about Mabel is far from your description of the 'vernacular' you refer too. Take a grumpy pill today did you? I told it how it is, then and now. It's different now and I refuse to buy into the gender bull. Simple as that. The gay community is out of control and they have totally lost my respect. Can you not understand how society has changed from a gentler time to bunch of whiners? Guess not, you are far too young to know the difference Mark.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The person has gender dysphoria. And is a man.



You’re delusional. The article quite clearly states transgender woman. 

 https://www.google.ca/amp/s/nation...mplaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter/amp


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Absolutely nothing. As Don said respect has to be earned. I recall a black jerk I worked with about 40 years ago. One day out of the blue he had the gall to say:"You don't respect me because I'm black."
> 
> Now I had been unusually tolerant of this idiot because he was black, so that really set me off. I'm not that big but the next thing I knew I had grabbed him by the collar and lifted him clean off the floor. I looked him square in the eye and told him point blank: "If you want my respect you'll have to earn it, just like a white man."
> 
> That is still true today. There are no free passes because you happen to be gay, black, female, or completely unsure of your gender. Respect has to be earned.
> 
> Anyways I do wonder what Freddie's wife thinks of sacrificing that woman on the alter of political correctness, then shrugging her off as collateral damage.
> 
> The article is still here;
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/cana...lter/wcm/930818a7-d14a-44e8-a0ec-4f6f80f40800
> Why not have her read it Freddie, then tell us what her opinion is.



I’ve already told you what her opinion is. I was siding initially with the straight woman. My wife and kids tuned me in to the other side of the story. You right wingers are not nearly as aware as you think you are.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> ...You right wingers are not nearly as aware as you think you are.


Freddie I admit to being somewhat right of right on fiscal matters. When it comes to health care I am far closer to the left, than the right. You will save your self brain cells you can ill afford to lose if you can avoid the lunacy of trying to fit me into a pigeon hole.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Freddie I admit to being somewhat right of right on fiscal matters. When it comes to health care I am far closer to the left, than the right. You will save your self brain cells you can ill afford to lose if you can avoid the lunacy of trying to fit me into a pigeon hole.



Your remark about my wife was not very wise. And you can cut the crap about brain cells “you can ill afford to lose” if you want to earn my respect.


----------



## Macfury

> "a pre-operative male-to-female transgender person."


Man.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You’re delusional. The article quite clearly states transgender woman.
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/nation...mplaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter/amp


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Man.




“Forced to share a room with transgender woman in Toronto shelter, sex abuse victim files human rights complaint”

Woman. 

You are under the mistaken assumption that a transgender woman must have already undergone a sex change. That is not the case. You have much to learn. 

The reason that the woman who is complaining is in the wrong is because she is complaining about who the person is, which is a protected status, not because of something she did. Had the transgender woman accosted her or did something specific, it would be a different case. It’s like saying I don’t want to share a room with her because she’s a lesbian and she might try to make a move on me. Both parties have rights, not just one. You don’t have to agree, but it’s the law.


----------



## Macfury

You're moving back and forth between sex and gender and back to sex again--you're so confused you're running circles up your own backside!



Freddie_Biff said:


> “Forced to share a room with transgender woman in Toronto shelter, sex abuse victim files human rights complaint”
> 
> Woman.
> 
> You are under the mistaken assumption that a transgender woman must have already undergone a sex change. That is not the case. You have much to learn.
> 
> The reason that the woman who is complaining is in the wrong is because she is complaining about who the person is, which is a protected status, not because of something she did. Had the transgender woman accosted her or did something specific, it would be a different case. It’s like saying I don’t want to share a room with her because she’s a lesbian and she might try to make a move on me. Both parties have rights, not just one. You don’t have to agree, but it’s the law.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You're moving back and forth between sex and gender and back to sex again--you're so confused you're running circles up your own backside!




Admit it, Macfury. You’re in over your head on this subject.


----------



## Macfury

You cant keep your own argument straight!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Admit it, Macfury. You’re in over your head on this subject.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> I’ve already told you what her opinion is. I was siding initially with the straight woman. My wife and kids tuned me in to the other side of the story. You right wingers are not nearly as aware as you think you are.


Actually not, the only mention you made of your wife is that she thought 7 months was a long time for the victim of this fiasco to spend in a shelter.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You cant keep your own argument straight!




Sex and gender are two different but related subjects. Which part do you seek clarification about? You seem to equate the two.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Actually not, the only mention you made of your wife is that she thought 7 months was a long time for the victim of this fiasco to spend in a shelter.




Among other things, she and my daughters explained how gender is a performance, as opposed to sex, which is the actual genitalia one is endowed with. They also felt that the woman who was complaining was doing so wrongly, since her concern about the transgender roommate who was assigned to her seemed to be based on her identity as opposed to anything objectionable she had done. What else would you like to know, eMacMan?


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Your remark about my wife was not very wise. And you can cut the crap about brain cells “you can ill afford to lose” if you want to earn my respect.


It was not a remark at all. I simply wondered what her opinion was. There was absolutely nothing insulting about it. If you took offense that says only that you wanted an excuse to be offended. 

The remark about you suffering brain damage if you tried to pigeon hole me either left or right stands. After all I am anti-war and both sides are very much pro-war. You can twist your brain all you want but that issue alone assures that you will fail miserably. Your math (non)skills are all the proof required that you really do need to keep your remaining grey matter intact.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> It was not a remark at all. I simply wondered what her opinion was. There was absolutely nothing insulting about it. If you took offense that says only that you wanted an excuse to be offended.
> 
> The remark about you suffering brain damage if you tried to pigeon hole me either left or right stands. After all I am anti-war and both sides are very much pro-war. You can twist your brain all you want but that issue alone assures that you will fail miserably. Your math (non)skills are all the proof required that you really do need to keep your remaining grey matter intact.



And you need to learn some manners. Yup, I thought I had you pegged before. It seems I was right. Have a nice day.


----------



## Beej

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I see what you are saying and it is true I did not list constraints because I thought those constraints were fairly obvious as most are governed by laws and regulations.


If you want to see a range of discussion on the matter, the Economist recently ran a series:
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/transgender-identities-a-series-of-invited-essays

While current U.S. psychology standards may seem clear, the policy space is far from clear. The laws and regulations that follow will probably be a suitable mess.


----------



## SINC

This is how I see the entire issue of gender:

Woman. 
Trans woman. (A man self described as a woman.)

Man. 
Trans man. (A woman self described as a man.)

Man/Woman. (A person possesing both gender traits.)


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, the idea that anyone else needs clarification after you've presented your mess of an argument here is something special. You admonish people not to confuse sex and gender--and then can't differentiate yourself! 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sex and gender are two different but related subjects. Which part do you seek clarification about? You seem to equate the two.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Freddie, the idea that anyone else needs clarification after you've presented your mess of an argument here is something special. You admonish people not to confuse sex and gender--and then can't differentiate yourself!




Please explain. Where do you think I’ve confused the two?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> This is how I see the entire issue of gender:
> 
> 
> 
> Woman.
> 
> Trans woman. (A man self described as a woman.)
> 
> 
> 
> Man.
> 
> Trans man. (A woman self described as a man.)
> 
> 
> 
> Man/Woman. (A person possesing both gender traits.)




Not a bad start, Don, but there’s definitely more to it. Gender, for example, can refer to body, identity and expression. Here’s a useful link. 

 https://www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender/


----------



## Macfury

Yep Don, soon you can be clear-headed just like Freddie!


----------



## Rps

Not trying to muddy the waters here, but much of your arguments are patterned after the early discussions on the self. Some believe in a solitary self while others believe in multiple selves. I think views on gender follow along those lines. It’s not just the physical aspect but also the roles and expectations society places on the self..... and most assuredly gender.

One of my most interesting discussions while I taught ESL was explaining the notion of homosexuality, transgender to a number of my students. Culture most certainly plays a role in one’s opinion on the subject.


----------



## Macfury

None of this excuses placing a man in a women's shelter.



Rps said:


> Not trying to muddy the waters here, but much of your arguments are patterned after the early discussions on the self. Some believe in a solitary self while others believe in multiple selves. I think views on gender follow along those lines. It’s not just the physical aspect but also the roles and expectations society places on the self..... and most assuredly gender.
> 
> One of my most interesting discussions while I taught ESL was explaining the notion of homosexuality, transgender to a number of my students. Culture most certainly plays a role in one’s opinion on the subject.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Not trying to muddy the waters here, but much of your arguments are patterned after the early discussions on the self. Some believe in a solitary self while others believe in multiple selves. I think views on gender follow along those lines. It’s not just the physical aspect but also the roles and expectations society places on the self..... and most assuredly gender.
> 
> 
> 
> One of my most interesting discussions while I taught ESL was explaining the notion of homosexuality, transgender to a number of my students. Culture most certainly plays a role in one’s opinion on the subject.



Excellent point, Rps. It’s also very difficult to understand things from anything but our own perspective if we’ve never really been challenged to before. When they say “gender is a performance” it’s because we learn to play a role in our society and in our immediate circle of influence—this is how boys behave and this is how girls behave, for instance—that may be far from a universal experience.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> None of this excuses placing a man in a women's shelter.




You are being deliberately obtuse. They didn’t place a man in a women’s shelter FFS. They placed a transgender woman in a women’s shelter. Read the article again.


----------



## Rps

Freddie_Biff said:


> You are being deliberately obtuse. They didn’t place a man in a women’s shelter FFS. They placed a transgender woman in a women’s shelter. Read the article again.


Actually, they placed an in process individual who presented more male than female in a room with a traumatized individual who reacted negatively to, in her view and also by the sexual statements made by the inprocess individual a male. It was further reported that the in process individual indicated that they had a pregnant girl friend. If you were a traumatized woman in that situation you would probably have reacted the same way. What the shelter should have done was have rooms set aside for transgendered individuals...it would appear they didn’t.

Don’t go down the rabbit hole of what is male and what is female on this. The fact is the shelter did not meet either clients needs. It took an easy way out but created a political issue when it needn’t be. Political solutions to non political problems never seem to work out well in my opinion.


----------



## Macfury

Your labels can't change reality. If I call a cat a dog, it's still a cat. This is like _1984_ where Winston's captors try to make him defy the truth because the government tells him to. They change words and expect reality to follow suit.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You are being deliberately obtuse. They didn’t place a man in a women’s shelter FFS. They placed a transgender woman in a women’s shelter. Read the article again.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> The fact is the shelter did not meet either clients needs.


That's because one of them was not part of the client group.


----------



## 18m2

The Trans Mountain pipe line is going to cost $1.9 billion more than we were lead to believe by the government. They are either liars or they are stupid or both. 

Here is KM's submission to the US SEC

http://app.quotemedia.com/data/down...e=DEFM14A&dateFiled=2018-08-07&cik=0001714973


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Actually, they placed an in process individual who presented more male than female in a room with a traumatized individual who reacted negatively to, in her view and also by the sexual statements made by the inprocess individual a male. It was further reported that the in process individual indicated that they had a pregnant girl friend. If you were a traumatized woman in that situation you would probably have reacted the same way. What the shelter should have done was have rooms set aside for transgendered individuals...it would appear they didn’t.
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t go down the rabbit hole of what is male and what is female on this. The fact is the shelter did not meet either clients needs. It took an easy way out but created a political issue when it needn’t be. Political solutions to non political problems never seem to work out well in my opinion.




The shelter was responsible to meeting both individuals’ needs. The woman who complained seemed to be complaining more about who the trans woman was as opposed to what she had done. That’s what got her into trouble. I’m not saying this was a simple situation—far from. This is what happens when one person’s rights comes smack in the face of another person’s rights. We shall see what further happens if anything.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Your labels can't change reality. If I call a cat a dog, it's still a cat. This is like _1984_ where Winston's captors try to make him defy the truth because the government tells him to. They change words and expect reality to follow suit.



They’re not my labels. They are part of law and protected rights now whether you or I like them or not. No use living in the past.


----------



## Rps

Frank, we will see what happens. My guess is it will float away.


----------



## Macfury

The law does not specify that a man can stay in a women's shelter.



Freddie_Biff said:


> They’re not my labels. They are part of law and protected rights now whether you or I like them or not. No use living in the past.


----------



## Macfury

Liars, I suspect. The stupidity comes next.



18m2 said:


> The Trans Mountain pipe line is going to cost $1.9 billion more than we were lead to believe by the government. They are either liars or they are stupid or both.
> 
> Here is KM's submission to the US SEC
> 
> http://app.quotemedia.com/data/down...e=DEFM14A&dateFiled=2018-08-07&cik=0001714973


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The law does not specify that man can stay in a women's shelter.



She’s a trans woman, whether you agree or not. Otherwise this wouldn’t be an issue. You really need to catch up to the current year.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Frank, we will see what happens. My guess is it will float away.




Yes, there’s very little written about it so far as far as I can see.


----------



## Macfury

But when Trump followed the law on family separation at the border, you didn't say "the law is the law. No use living in the past."



Freddie_Biff said:


> They’re not my labels. They are part of law and protected rights now whether you or I like them or not. No use living in the past.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> But when Trump followed the law on family separation at the border, you didn't say "the law is the law. No use living in the past."



Redirect much? We’re talking about a Canadian case involving gender and human rights, not Trump and his zero tolerance policy. In the Canadian thread.


----------



## eMacMan

Law or no, the shelter was under no legal obligation to force his company on a woman who clearly felt threatened having him as a room mate. If no one else in the shelter was willing to volunteer to be his room mate, that in itself should be a very clear indicator that he does not belong there.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Law or no, the shelter was under no legal obligation to force his company on a woman who clearly felt threatened having him as a room mate. If no one else in the shelter was willing to volunteer to be his room mate, that in itself should be a very clear indicator that he does not belong there.




Her and she. Just because a group of people get together to express their dislike of someone new does not give them the right to discriminate against her. You really need to get in tune with current human rights legislation. Just because you don't like someone or question her trans woman identification does not mean your rights supercede hers. Or do you question all women who have facial hair?


----------



## jfpoole

Out of idle curiosity I was wondering what happened to ehMac and whether I was missing anything from that site I spent so much time on back in the "good ol' days". 



SINC said:


> Of course they exist. They're sick people who have disguised themselves as the opposite gender.


Nope. Apparently not.


----------



## Macfury

Yes the rights of the woman in the woman's shelter supercede those of the man.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Her and she. Just because a group of people get together to express their dislike of someone new does not give them the right to discriminate against her. You really need to get in tune with current human rights legislation. Just because you don't like someone or question her trans woman identification does not mean your rights supercede hers. Or do you question all women who have facial hair?


----------



## Macfury

It's hilarious to watch you skitter back and forth as your argument relies first on on appeals to authority, then on the illegitimacy of authority. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Redirect much? We’re talking about a Canadian case involving gender and human rights, not Trump and his zero tolerance policy. In the Canadian thread.


----------



## Macfury

How's Lion working out for you?



jfpoole said:


> Out of idle curiosity I was wondering what happened to ehMac and whether I was missing anything from that site I spent so much time on back in the "good ol' days".
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Apparently not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's hilarious to watch you skitter back and forth as your argument relies first on on appeals to authority, then on the illegitimacy of authority.



Again, stick to the topic at hand. This. Is about Canadian law, not Trump. It’s hilarious to watch you frequently forget that fact and skitter between the wrong pronoun and then try to make false equivalence with the POTUS.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie you can't jump back and forth between arguments from authority and back again without having the quality of your logic judged.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Again, stick to the topic at hand. This. Is about Canadian law, not Trump. It’s hilarious to watch you frequently forget that fact and skitter between the wrong pronoun and then try to make false equivalence with the POTUS.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Freddie you can't jump back and forth between arguments from authority and back again without having the quality of your logic judged.



You don’t understand the law anyway, so it doesn’t seem to matter.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Her and she. Just because a group of people get together to express their dislike of someone new does not give them the right to discriminate against her. You really need to get in tune with current human rights legislation. Just because you don't like someone or question her trans woman identification does not mean your rights supercede hers. Or do you question all women who have facial hair?


Take a very deep breath Freddie, then let it out very slowly, cause what I'm about to say is really gonna shock you.

The fact that you worship at, and are willing to sacrifice a traumatized woman on the alter of political correctness, places absolutely no obligation on me or anyone else to do the same.

By calling him a him I eliminated any chance of confusing him with his unfortunate roommate, and I did it with just a single pronoun. He's not really a she except in his own head. Since by that definition he is neither nor, perhaps I should have correctly referred to him as it. 

She-male is only slightly more wordy but I generally reserve that for women posing as men.

That just leaves something along the lines of; He who wants us to believe that he believes that he thinks he is a she, even though all objective evidence says he is a he.

I know it's a lot to wrap your head around, but most of us have little or no tolerance of the politically correct BS that Big Brother continually tries to shove down our throats. 

If you want to participate in his confusion, you are of course free to do so. Do not however tell me I have to do so as well.


----------



## Macfury

You only respect the law when you believe it backs up your viewpoint--otherwise it infuriates you!



Freddie_Biff said:


> You don’t understand the law anyway, so it doesn’t seem to matter.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Take a very deep breath Freddie, then let it out very slowly, cause what I'm about to say is really gonna shock you.
> 
> The fact that you worship at, and are willing to sacrifice a traumatized woman on the alter of political correctness, places absolutely no obligation on me or anyone else to do the same.


Exactly. Guilt-ridden progs get "woke" and wrap themselves in unsupportable pretzel-logic to win approval from their peers. Even a rape victim gets tossed on the altar of political correctness in an effort to support the type of hare-brained "reasoning" we're seeing here.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Take a very deep breath Freddie, then let it out very slowly, cause what I'm about to say is really gonna shock you.
> 
> The fact that you worship at, and are willing to sacrifice a traumatized woman on the alter of political correctness, places absolutely no obligation on me or anyone else to do the same.
> 
> By calling him a him I eliminated any chance of confusing him with his unfortunate roommate, and I did it with just a single pronoun. He's not really a she except in his own head. Since by that definition he is neither nor, perhaps I should have correctly referred to him as it.
> 
> She-male is only slightly more wordy but I generally reserve that for women posing as men.
> 
> That just leaves something along the lines of; He who wants us to believe that he believes that he thinks he is a she, even though all objective evidence says he is a he.
> 
> I know it's a lot to wrap your head around, but most of us have little or no tolerance of the politically correct BS that Big Brother continually tries to shove down our throats.
> 
> If you want to participate in his confusion, you are of course free to do so. Do not however tell me I have to do so as well.




I’m not telling you; the law is. Why do you think the shelter took the steps they did and informed Kristi Hanna that she was the one who was discriminating? They know the law even if you don’t. 

Why I find this case interesting is because it pits the rights of one person against the rights of another. You, on the other hand, seem to believe the trans woman has no rights. That says a lot about you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Guilt-ridden progs get "woke" and wrap themselves in unsupportable pretzel-logic to win approval from their peers. Even a rape victim gets tossed on the altar of political correctness in an effort to support the type of hare-brained "reasoning" we're seeing here.



What makes you so sure the trans woman wasn’t also a rape victim? In any event, I sympathize with Kristi Hanna more than you understand, but her objection to her roommate was based on who she IS and not something she had DONE. Big difference.


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> What makes you so sure the trans woman wasn’t also a rape victim? In any event, I sympathize with Kristi Hanna more than you understand, but her objection to her roommate was based on who she IS and not something she had DONE. Big difference.


You could say that about anyone then, why not put a man in there as well who needed a safe shelter. He had done nothing but would be denied and discriminated against because of who he IS and not what he has DONE.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> I’m not telling you; the law is. Why do you think the shelter took the steps they did and informed Kristi Hanna that she was the one who was discriminating? They know the law even if you don’t.
> 
> Why I find this case interesting is because it pits the rights of one person against the rights of another. You, on the other hand, seem to believe the trans woman has no rights. That says a lot about you.


Freddie you will have to quote the statute that requires me to falsely claim that I believe what someone else merely claims they believe, and adjust my pronouns in accordance with that forcefully professed false belief.


----------



## Macfury

Could have been a rape victim as well.



wonderings said:


> You could say that about anyone then, why not put a man in there as well who needed a safe shelter. He had done nothing but would be denied and discriminated against because of who he IS and not what he has DONE.


----------



## Macfury

The shelter made an error by inferring non-existent rights.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I’m not telling you; the law is. Why do you think the shelter took the steps they did and informed Kristi Hanna that she was the one who was discriminating? They know the law even if you don’t.
> 
> Why I find this case interesting is because it pits the rights of one person against the rights of another. You, on the other hand, seem to believe the trans woman has no rights. That says a lot about you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> You could say that about anyone then, why not put a man in there as well who needed a safe shelter. He had done nothing but would be denied and discriminated against because of who he IS and not what he has DONE.



You could say that, but you would not be right. I believe the shelter was required to notify all of the residents and get their consent to even have a man on the premises. This is why many of you are making a mistake by calling the trans woman a “he.” I might not agree with their decision, you might not agree with their decision, but they were following the law by not discriminating against a trans woman. How convincing that female identification is is a different matter. The facial hair would throw off the illusion for me, certainly, but some woman have facial hair. Who am I to judge?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Freddie you will have to quote the statute that requires me to falsely claim that I believe what someone else merely claims they believe, and adjust my pronouns in accordance with that forcefully professed false belief.



Why bother? You’ll just claim it’s a stupid statute anyway and ignore it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The shelter made an error by inferring non-existent rights.




Which rights do you believe are non-existent?


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> Why bother? You’ll just claim it’s a stupid statute anyway and ignore it.


Because it would completely validate your point on what the shelter should do in cases like this whether you agree with the law or not. I would be curious to see if an actual law does indeed exist.


----------



## Macfury

State the law that says that this man should have been given access to the women's shelter.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Which rights do you believe are non-existent?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> Because it would completely validate your point on what the shelter should do in cases like this whether you agree with the law or not. I would be curious to see if an actual law does indeed exist.



I believe it’s a part of the charter in reference to the rights of protected groups. That’s why you can’t discriminate against a transgender person simply for being transgender, but if they bop someone on the head you can go after them for assault.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> State the law that says that this man should have been given access to the women's shelter.



She’s not a man. Why do you keep referring to her as such? She self-identifies as a trans woman. And in any case you’re missing the point. Once again.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> She’s not a man. Why do you keep referring to her as such? She self-identifies as a trans woman. And in any case you’re missing the point. Once again.


No amount of self identifying will change the fact he is a man and always will be.


----------



## Macfury

What law requires a women's shelter to admit a man?



Freddie_Biff said:


> I believe it’s a part of the charter in reference to the rights of protected groups. That’s why you can’t discriminate against a transgender person simply for being transgender, but if they bop someone on the head you can go after them for assault.


----------



## Macfury

It doesn't matter how a person self-identifies. The trans-black person does not become black, nor are they able to benefit from targeted social programs. They can't be educated at an all-black high school. Nor does the trans-disabled person who uses a wheelchair become disabled, neither are they able to access government disability programs.



Freddie_Biff said:


> She’s not a man. Why do you keep referring to her as such? She self-identifies as a trans woman. And in any case you’re missing the point. Once again.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It doesn't matter how a person self-identifies. The trans-black person does not become black, nor are they able to benefit from targeted social programs. They can't be educated at an all-black high school. Nor does the trans-disabled person who uses a wheelchair become disabled, neither are they able to access government disability programs.



Again, you miss the point. This is not a story about a “trans black” person. Gender identity is very much a protected right whether you agree with it or not. You have some serious catching up to do, amigo.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Freddie you will have to quote the statute that requires me to falsely claim that I believe what someone else merely claims they believe, and adjust my pronouns in accordance with that forcefully professed false belief.





Freddie_Biff said:


> Why bother? You’ll just claim it’s a stupid statute anyway and ignore it.


IOW you cannot do it. Once again Freddie is waving the white flag of surrender.









You claimed it was the law but have zero to back the claim. 

Seriously "Because I say so.", may work with a Junior High captive audience but it will not wash, out in the real world.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> IOW you cannot do it. Once again Freddie is waving the white flag of surrender.
> 
> View attachment 87512
> 
> 
> You claimed it was the law but have zero to back the claim.
> 
> Seriously "Because I say so.", may work with a Junior High captive audience but it will not wash, out in the real world.



Why don’t you quote the statute that says you can discriminate against a trangendered woman.


----------



## Rps

Oh FFS, as this is my last post here, look it up yourself....

Gender identity and gender expression (brochure) | Ontario Human Rights Commission

Man you guys like to pick the fly sh*t needlessly out of the pepper.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Oh FFS, as this is my last post here, look it up yourself....
> 
> 
> 
> Gender identity and gender expression (brochure) | Ontario Human Rights Commission
> 
> 
> 
> Man you guys like to pick the fly sh*t needlessly out of the pepper.




Thanks, Rps. I trust this is what eMacMan is looking for.


----------



## Macfury

It is not. The head of the Ontario Human Rights Commission has already stated that women's shelters have discretion as to whom they admit. They don't have to admit men who believe they are female.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Thanks, Rps. I trust this is what eMacMan is looking for.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It is not. The head of the Ontario Human Rights Commission has already stated that women's shelters have discretion as to whom they admit. They don't have to admit men who believe they are female.



Cite please.


----------



## Macfury

Seriously?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Cite please.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Seriously?




Yes. What is your source?


----------



## PosterBoy

Huh. I got nostalgic for his site after some recent social media developments but it turns out the ratio of bigots and trolls is maybe higher here than it is on Twitter. That’s almost impressive.


----------



## Macfury

Which is it, bigots or trolls? And what are the ratios?


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> Which is it, bigots or trolls? And what are the ratios?


I find generally the word "troll" is tossed around whenever someone has a different opinion then they do. Seems childish to me for such labeling and just goes further into the tolerant peoples intolerance towards anyone who does not share their views completely. This is why speakers were protested, books burned and people assaulted because the tolerance and inclusivity they preach is just not there.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I find generally the word "troll" is tossed around whenever someone has a different opinion then they do. Seems childish to me for such labeling and just goes further into the tolerant peoples intolerance towards anyone who does not share their views completely. This is why speakers were protested, books burned and people assaulted because the tolerance and inclusivity they preach is just not there.


What are the chances that two EhMacers would show up within a day of each other to decry the terrible condition they find this place in? Besides, take a look at EhMac a decade ago--it was like the Wild West. There were no "good old days" where only the views of "progressives" were considered acceptable discourse. 

They should have visited MacDiscussions before that heavily moderated prog-only board died in infancy from self-induced sclerosis.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Beej said:


> If you want to see a range of discussion on the matter, the Economist recently ran a series:
> https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/transgender-identities-a-series-of-invited-essays
> 
> While current U.S. psychology standards may seem clear, the policy space is far from clear. The laws and regulations that follow will probably be a suitable mess.


Thank Beej, I will have to give the essays a read when I have the time.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

*Just to change the channel and to get back to Canadian politics*

What do people think about this?

Trudeau rebuffs Saudi call for an apology as diplomatic spat escalates
CBC

Be sure to watch the interviews. Peter MacKay's interview makes current Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs Omar Alghabra look like a mumbling stumbling puppet. Of course all PS's are puppets to the Minister, but his performance was really very weak IMO.


----------



## Macfury

There are thousands of human rights violations across the globe, including in Canada. You have to decide which hill you want to die on. McKay is right that the government blew the messaging and his analysis is much better than Alghabra's.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What do people think about this?
> 
> Trudeau rebuffs Saudi call for an apology as diplomatic spat escalates
> CBC
> 
> Be sure to watch the interviews. Peter MacKay's interview makes current Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs Omar Alghabra look like a mumbling stumbling puppet. Of course all PS's are puppets to the Minister, but his performance was really very weak IMO.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> There are thousands of human rights violations across the globe, including in Canada. You have to decide which hill you want to die on. McKay is right that the government blew the messaging and his analysis is much better than Alghabra's.


Exactly, so why pick on Saudi Arabia via tweets rather than use more private diplomatic channels especially with a $15 billion deal, the largest in Canadian history, to sell Saudi Arabia light-armoured vehicles (LAVs) from London, Ont.-based General Dynamics on the line?

Yet another ill thought out action by the Trudeau Government, that could cost the country $15B in revenue. 

This government reacts on impulse because that is the nature of PM Trudeau. He reacts and then when things that he said or did go awry he apologizes and just keeps going on his error ridden ways like nothing happened and he has passed this tendency onto his cabinet.


----------



## CubaMark

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Yet another ill thought out action by the Trudeau Government, that could cost the country $15B in revenue.


So.... no problem with Saudi Arabia's atrocious human rights record (aided by the very kind of equipment Canada is going to sell them)... which today was made even worse with the news of SA's targeted missile strike on a bus full of schoolchildren in a Yemen market?

Sigh.... :-(


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> So.... no problem with Saudi Arabia's atrocious human rights record (aided by the very kind of equipment Canada is going to sell them)... which today was made even worse with the news of SA's targeted missile strike on a bus full of schoolchildren in a Yemen market?
> 
> Sigh.... :-(


Ya can't fix the world, or all its problems CM. Lets get real and begin to look after ourselves first.

If rights activists choose to visit foreign countries as Canadians and get detained, screw 'em. They put themselves in danger and let them bear the consequences. Enough is enough.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> You have to decide which hill you want to die on.


We talked, they acted. We shouldn't stop talking just because they hyperventilate in some show of power. That's their hill, not ours.

Not that we back up our words with action, or stop trading with those we strongly criticize (e.g. China). But that's not new.


----------



## Macfury

I mean choosing which instances to talk about in the first place and how you choose to talk about them. Diplomatic channels may well work better than Tweeting.



Beej said:


> We talked, they acted. We shouldn't stop talking just because they hyperventilate in some show of power. That's their hill, not ours.
> 
> Not that we back up our words with action, or stop trading with those we strongly criticize (e.g. China). But that's not new.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Ya can't fix the world, or all its problems CM. Lets get real and begin to look after ourselves first.
> 
> If rights activists choose to visit foreign countries as Canadians and get detained, screw 'em. They put themselves in danger and let them bear the consequences. Enough is enough.


This is not just an issue with rights activists visiting foreign countries. The Saudi Arabian government is a significant destabilizing force in the region, particularly in terms of the war underway in Yemen. 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi - for whatever that's worth. 

We can't fix the world - that's true. But we can be conscientious of our role in the world and not be party to Saudi oppression and murder, by not selling them the military equipment used against its own and other peoples.

Are the 2,000 jobs in London, Ont. and the $15-billion for General Dynamics worth giving up on our stated principles of defending human rights in the world?

Note that while people are concerned about the jobs, the deal, the killings, etc., all parties have been very clear that the oil will keep flowing... yet another example of the deadly impact of fossil fuels beyond environmental concerns, into the realm of international relations where human lives are always taking second place to the essential black gold upon which our economies continue to be based.


----------



## SINC

Agree that is all true CM, but the fact remains, policy for Canada should be, if you are an activist who travels outside our borders, you are on your own. Knowing that would stop a lot of the crap that government gets entangled in due to these do gooders who poke their noses into other nations affairs. Play with fire, you're gonna get burned ought to be adopted by government and citizens made aware of their status outside the country.


----------



## Macfury

Our reliance on Middle East oil is the result of loony policies in Canada. Yet another example of the deadly impact of leftist politics in Canada.



CubaMark said:


> .. yet another example of the deadly impact of fossil fuels beyond environmental concerns, into the realm of international relations where human lives are always taking second place to the essential black gold upon which our economies continue to be based.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Our reliance on Middle East oil is the result of loony policies in Canada. Yet another example of the deadly impact of leftist politics in Canada.



Why leftist? 

Also still waiting for that cite from earlier.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Why leftist?


Leftists are responsible for the crazy green energy fiascos and pipeline policies that have frustrated our goals of energy independence.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Also still waiting for that cite from earlier.


It was already included in previous discussion links.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It was already included in previous discussion links.



Where? You certainly haven’t provided a cite since I requested one. I’d like to know where you get your information.


----------



## Macfury

Good grief!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Where? You certainly haven’t provided a cite since I requested one. I’d like to know where you get your information.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Good grief!



Not an adequate cite. What are you, lacking a source?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It is not. The head of the Ontario Human Rights Commission has already stated that women's shelters have discretion as to whom they admit. They don't have to admit men who believe they are female.



Bump. In case you had forgotten the comment for which you are looking for a cite. When did the head of the Ontario Human Rights Commission state this? Because the information I have read certainly seems to contradict this.

“Under the Ontario Human Rights Code (the Code) people are protected from discrimination and harassment because of gender identity and gender expression in employment, housing, facilities and services, contracts, and membership in unions, trade or professional associations.”

“Everyone has the right to define their own gender identity. Trans people should be recognized and treated as the gender they live in, whether or not they have undergone surgery, or their identity documents are up to date.”

Gender identity and gender expression (brochure) | Ontario Human Rights Commission


----------



## Macfury

The original article states that:



> Renu Mandhane, Chief Commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, said that as a general rule, women’s shelters have the right to restrict their accommodation to women.


She does not call both of the people in the story women, she calls them "cis woman" and "trans woman" and then says that shelters are not required to house them in shared accommodation. It does not mean they won't be.

Likewise, the Supreme Court of BC asserts that organizations such as Vancouver Rape Relief "has the right to organize as a women-only space, irrespective of gender identity" in asking a volunteer who identified as a woman to leave.

https://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca...ociety-v-nixon-2005-bcca-601-summary-decision


----------



## SINC

And further:



> Renu Mandhane, Chief Commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, said that as a general rule, *women’s shelters have the right to restrict their accommodation to women.
> *
> “A trans person should have access to the shelter that matches their lived gender identity,” she said in a statement to the Post. “However, this does not necessarily require that a cis and trans woman share the same bedroom. An appropriate balancing of the rights of both women may require that one of the women be provided with non-shared accommodation.”
> 
> The Ontario Human Rights Code says everyone has a right to equal treatment with respect to services and occupation of accommodation without discrimination because of various grounds, including gender identity and expression. It also says everyone who occupies accommodation has a right to freedom from harassment by other occupants because of the same grounds.


https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...s-complaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The original article states that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She does not call both of the people in the story women, she calls them "cis woman" and "trans woman" and then says that shelters are not required to house them in shared accommodation. It does not mean they won't be.
> 
> 
> 
> Likewise, the Supreme Court of BC asserts that organizations such as Vancouver Rape Relief "has the right to organize as a women-only space, irrespective of gender identity" in asking a volunteer who identified as a woman to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca...ociety-v-nixon-2005-bcca-601-summary-decision



Thank you. But this link is from 2005. Gender identity laws have evolved considerably since then.


----------



## Macfury

How do you think the law works, Freddie? Vancouver Rape Relief continues to operate under the precedent set by the case. No case has overturned the precedent since the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear it.

BC Human Rights legislation states:



> “If a charitable, philanthropic, educational, fraternal, religious or social organization or corporation that is not operated for profit has as a primary purpose the promotion of the interests and welfare of an identifiable group or class of persons characterized by a physical or mental disability or by a common race, religion, age, sex, marital status, political belief, colour, ancestry or place of origin, that organization or corporation must not be considered to be contravening this code because it is granting a preference to members of the identifiable group or class of persons.”





Freddie_Biff said:


> Thank you. But this link is from 2005. Gender identity laws have evolved considerably since then.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> How do you think the law works, Freddie? Vancouver Rape Relief continues to operate under the precedent set by the case. No case has overturned the precedent since the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear it.
> 
> 
> 
> BC Human Rights legislation states:




How does this quoted section apply to transgender individuals? It seems to be more about organizations. And what does the quote from Vancouver in 2005 have to do with Ontario in 2018? Seems to me you're reaching here.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> And further:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...s-complaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter




Ummm...you've just requoted the news article again. We already have that. Further, you seem to be ignoring the fact that under Ontario human rights legislation, a transgender person, with or without an operation, still goes by the gender of their choice. 

"But when Hanna called the Human Rights Legal Support Centre, they said that she was the one engaged in discrimination for describing her new roommate as a 'man'."


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> She does not call both of the people in the story women, she calls them "cis woman" and "trans woman" and then says that shelters are not required to house them in shared accommodation. It does not mean they won't be.



Let's see: what's the common denominator in both of these phrases? What could it be? Could it be "WOMAN"? Which makes both cis women and trans women women by the very example you provided.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Let's see: what's the common denominator in both of these phrases? What could it be? Could it be "WOMAN"? Which makes both cis women and trans women women by the very example you provided.


They are not both "women." That's why they've created a special designation for men who identify that way.


----------



## Macfury

That was not a legal opinion. Just a call centre operator.



Freddie_Biff said:


> "But when Hanna called the Human Rights Legal Support Centre, they said that she was the one engaged in discrimination for describing her new roommate as a 'man'."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> They are not both "women." That's why they've created a special designation for men who identify that way.



The law says they are. I don't agree with it. You don't agree with it. But it is the law, which you seem to fail to understand.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> That was not a legal opinion. Just a call centre operator.




A call centre operator who was familiar with Ontario Human Rights Legislation.


----------



## smashedbanana

Well gentlemen this discussion has reached over a dozen pages.

What's the issue anyways? A woman in the shelter is mad because she was a roomed with a transgender individual? She thinks her rights were somehow violated? 

She had a reservation for a single room in this government subsidized outreach program that has probably only ever helped her?

We should move that trans individual into a facility with men? That will only go well for sure. 

Did this trans individual present any conditions that warranted a threat or any other risk to the other residents? If no then what are we saying? You present as something and that's enough to ship you out because someone is uncomfortable?

Sounds horrible.

Opinions on trans or non trans aside should we be really listening to this seriously? Should this woman be the measure to which the (or any) shelter should be run?


----------



## Macfury

Yes. Especially when they are admitting men.



smashedbanana said:


> Should this woman be the measure to which the (or any) shelter should be run?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> Well gentlemen this discussion has reached over a dozen pages.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the issue anyways? A woman in the shelter is mad because she was a roomed with a transgender individual? She thinks her rights were somehow violated?
> 
> 
> 
> She had a reservation for a single room in this government subsidized outreach program that has probably only ever helped her?
> 
> 
> 
> We should move that trans individual into a facility with men? That will only go well for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Did this trans individual present any conditions that warranted a threat or any other risk to the other residents? If no then what are we saying? You present as something and that's enough to ship you out because someone is uncomfortable?
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds horrible.
> 
> 
> 
> Opinions on trans or non trans aside should we be really listening to this seriously? Should this woman be the measure to which the (or any) shelter should be run?




Stop making sense!! You must understand: Macfury doesn't "get" trangenderism. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Stop making sense!! You must understand: Macfury doesn't "get" trangenderism.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


So Ontario is demanding, at gunpoint, that I or anyone else use a particular pronoun when referring to a man who today claims he is a woman, but tomorrow after spending a voyeuristic night in a women's shelter can revert to claiming to be a man. Then of course referring to him as woman would be very derogatory. Who is to say that next week he won't claim to be completely alien and have to be referred to as an it? 

It is of course completely insane. It is so obviously insane that even Trump figured out it is insane. We can only hope that Ford follows the Donald's lead on this one and relegate that legislation to the scrap heap.

Perhaps we need an all inclusive pronoun to safely cover all the bases. May I respectfully, with tongue firmly in cheek, suggest: "(s)heit". It is a single word that would seem to do the trick. I can see it being pronounced in a derogatory manner, but that is always a danger when genetically modifying pronouns. 

There are other answers for those who really try to be politically correct.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNGkwGYE4E[/ame]


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> So Ontario is demanding, at gunpoint, that I or anyone else use a particular pronoun when referring to a man who today claims he is a woman, but tomorrow after spending a voyeuristic night in a women's shelter can revert to claiming to be a man. Then of course referring to him as woman would be very derogatory. Who is to say that next week he won't claim to be completely alien and have to be referred to as an it?
> 
> It is of course completely insane. It is so obviously insane that even Trump figured out it is insane. We can only hope that Ford follows the Donald's lead on this one and relegate that legislation to the scrap heap.
> 
> Perhaps we need an all inclusive pronoun to safely cover all the bases. May I respectfully, with tongue firmly in cheek, suggest: "(s)heit". It is a single word that would seem to do the trick. I can see it being pronounced in a derogatory manner, but that is always a danger when genetically modifying pronouns.
> 
> There are other answers for those who really try to be politically correct.
> [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNGkwGYE4E[/ame]



That video was pretty funny. A little over the top too, but I get the point. Why did everything have to become so confusing? Why can’t boys be boys and girls be girls? Well, for the most part, they still are, but there are some that don’t fit the traditional stereotypes with respect to gender, so the laws have changed. We should respect that, whether we want to or not.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> There are other answers for those who really try to be politically correct.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNGkwGYE4E


Thanks for the video.

Update: Having fun watching other content from the same group. Weekend fun, and some thoughtful stuff as well.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1DgvQUuQnJmMCwlxZ7SSg/videos?pbjreload=10


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

CubaMark said:


> This is not just an issue with rights activists visiting foreign countries. The Saudi Arabian government is a significant destabilizing force in the region, particularly in terms of the war underway in Yemen. 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi - for whatever that's worth.
> 
> We can't fix the world - that's true. But we can be conscientious of our role in the world and not be party to Saudi oppression and murder, by not selling them the military equipment used against its own and other peoples.
> 
> *Are the 2,000 jobs in London, Ont. and the $15-billion for General Dynamics worth giving up on our stated principles of defending human rights in the world?*
> 
> Note that while people are concerned about the jobs, the deal, the killings, etc., all parties have been very clear that the oil will keep flowing... yet another example of the deadly impact of fossil fuels beyond environmental concerns, into the realm of international relations where human lives are always taking second place to the essential black gold upon which our economies continue to be based.


No one is suggesting that CM it is just the manner in which issue was raised was the worst possible method. I think the Donald has shown us all that Twitter is not the place for conducting international relations. It was a big mistake to try and shame the Saudi's publicly like that, if anything it will make things worse for Samar Badawi and Nassima al-Sadah and they will dig the heels in deeper. Re: the LAV's if they buy them from us then they will buy them from someone else and yes 2,000 jobs in London and $15B into our economy does matter.


----------



## smashedbanana

eMacMan said:


> So Ontario is demanding, at gunpoint, that I or anyone else use a particular pronoun when referring to a man who today claims he is a woman, but tomorrow after spending a voyeuristic night in a women's shelter can revert to claiming to be a man. Then of course referring to him as woman would be very derogatory. Who is to say that next week he won't claim to be completely alien and have to be referred to as an it?
> 
> It is of course completely insane. It is so obviously insane that even Trump figured out it is insane. We can only hope that Ford follows the Donald's lead on this one and relegate that legislation to the scrap heap.
> 
> Perhaps we need an all inclusive pronoun to safely cover all the bases. May I respectfully, with tongue firmly in cheek, suggest: "(s)heit". It is a single word that would seem to do the trick. I can see it being pronounced in a derogatory manner, but that is always a danger when genetically modifying pronouns.
> 
> There are other answers for those who really try to be politically correct.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNGkwGYE4E



No no no.

This is such a dumb and ignorant post.

You think someone is going to pretend to be transgender then change back after getting to night at a women's shelter? That is just fear and and a lack of understanding talking. It's the same nonsense that US lawmakers are using to challenge bathroom laws. 

No one wants to be transgender. It's just where they find themselves. Most are closeted because it's too hard to come out. The ones that do experience immeasurable challenges until post op.

Substance abuse and other issues are common and hence the reason for this individual being in a shelter.

I've seen this kind of prejudice first hand. Very sad.


----------



## smashedbanana

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> No one is suggesting that CM it is just the manner in which issue was raised was the worst possible method. I think the Donald has shown us all that Twitter is not the place for conducting international relations. It was a big mistake to try and shame the Saudi's publicly like that, if anything it will make things worse for Samar Badawi and Nassima al-Sadah and they will dig the heels in deeper. Re: the LAV's if they buy them from us then they will buy them from someone else and yes 2,000 jobs in London and $15B into our economy does matter.


I think you've hit on it.

I keep wondering why does our government even Tweet?


----------



## Macfury

You respect only certain laws and dismiss others. If the government said that pi should be rounded to 3.1 to make it easier for people to remember, it would not change the science of mathematics. Neither will pretending to recognize men as women change reality.

You've never told me what you think about so-called "trans-black" individuals. Would you recognize them as black because that's how they've identified all their lives? 



Freddie_Biff said:


> We should respect that, whether we want to or not.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You respect only certain laws and dismiss others. If the government said that pi should be rounded to 3.1 to make it easier for people to remember, it would not change the science of mathematics. Neither will pretending to recognize men as women change reality.
> 
> 
> 
> You've never told me what you think about so-called "trans-black" individuals. Would you recognize them as black because that's how they've identified all their lives?




That’s because you’re inventing analogies that have nothing to do with actual legislative reality, all to avoid having to admit you’re wrong. You simply do not understand anything about transgenderism. It doesn’t fit your black and white linear sequential mindset, so therefore in your mind it simply does not exist.


----------



## Macfury

Do you have no opinion about "trans-black" individuals because your in-the-box thinking can't recognize it--or because the government has not yet told you what to think?



Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s because you’re inventing analogies that have nothing to do with actual legislative reality, all to avoid having to admit you’re wrong. You simply do not understand anything about transgenderism. It doesn’t fit your black and white linear sequential mindset, so therefore in your mind it simply does not exist.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Do you have no opinion about "trans-black" individuals because your in-the-box thinking can't recognize it--or because the government has not yet told you what to think?



You keep trying to change the subject. The topic here is a real world case of transgender discrimination in your home province no less. Please cite a case where “trans black” discrimination has taken place.


----------



## Macfury

Does somebody need to attack a "trans black" individual before you can show compassion? What is your opinion on being "trans black"?



Freddie_Biff said:


> You keep trying to change the subject. The topic here is a real world case of transgender discrimination in your home province no less. Please cite a case where “trans black” discrimination has taken place.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Does somebody need to attack a "trans black" individual before you can show compassion? What is your opinion on being "trans black"?



Stop changing the subject. The discussion centred around an actual event that happened when a cisgender woman's rights and a transgender woman's rights came into conflict. The cisgender woman was invited to leave the shelter if she didn't like the arrangement. There were no "transblack" individuals involved. Stop trying to make it about something else just because you can't present a very good argument here.


----------



## Macfury

Do you believe that "trans-black" individuals deserve the same rights as people you call "trans-gendered"?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Stop changing the subject. The discussion centred around an actual event that happened when a cisgender woman's rights and a transgender woman's rights came into conflict. The cisgender woman was invited to leave the shelter if she didn't like the arrangement. There were no "transblack" individuals involved. Stop trying to make it about something else just because you can't present a very good argument here.


----------



## SINC

Here is the new reality.

I am and have been a member of a local licensed premises (It requires membership to enter). Today I stopped in for a beer and burger while at a car show.

It used to have two bathrooms, a men's and a women's The women's had three private stalls and the men's had one private stall and two urinals. I had to use the bathroom today and when I attempted to enter the men's, it was locked. WTH is with that? 

At any rate I waited and was most surprised that when the person within was done, a woman walked out allowing me access. When I entered, the first time in two months, there were still the same two urinals, but the privacy partition had been removed from the toilet. Then I noticed the door now had a slide bolt lock. Given the shock, I slid the bolt locked, used the urinal, washed and unlocked and left the room open.

Chatting with the bartender, a female by the way, I asked WTH happened with the men's room. She rolled her eyes and said a transgender female person who IDed as a man had laid a complaint with the Notley NDPers about the bathroom not being accesible to her. Note I said 'her'.

The government inspector came in and order the stall around the toilet be removed and the deadbolt lock installed on the main door due to the complaint.

So we now have a bathroom for three, that is reduced for use to only one person if one chooses to lock the door while two guys dance in the hallway, waiting their turn,

Absolute friggin luncacy and just one more reason why rights have gone mad in this country. Good grief, what next?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Do you believe that "trans-black" individuals deserve the same rights as people you call "trans-gendered"?


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


>


So, you deny that there have been issues involving trans blacks? Is that it CM?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Here is the new reality.
> 
> 
> 
> I am and have been a member of a local licensed premises (It requires membership to enter). Today I stopped in for a beer and burger while at a car show.
> 
> 
> 
> It used to have two bathrooms, a men's and a women's The women's had three private stalls and the men's had one private stall and two urinals. I had to use the bathroom today and when I attempted to enter the men's, it was locked. WTH is with that?
> 
> 
> 
> At any rate I waited and was most surprised that when the person within was done, a woman walked out allowing me access. When I entered, the first time in two months, there were still the same two urinals, but the privacy partition had been removed from the toilet. Then I noticed the door now had a slide bolt lock. Given the shock, I slid the bolt locked, used the urinal, washed and unlocked and left the room open.
> 
> 
> 
> Chatting with the bartender, a female by the way, I asked WTH happened with the men's room. She rolled her eyes and said a transgender female person who IDed as a man had laid a complaint with the Notley NDPers about the bathroom not being accesible to her. Note I said 'her'.
> 
> 
> 
> The government inspector came in and order the stall around the toilet be removed and the deadbolt lock installed on the main door due to the complaint.
> 
> 
> 
> So we now have a bathroom for three, that is reduced for use to only one person if one chooses to lock the door while two guys dance in the hallway, waiting their turn,
> 
> 
> 
> Absolute friggin luncacy and just one more reason why rights have gone mad in this country. Good grief, what next?



Lunacy? Perhaps. Reality? Absolutely. I’m not saying I agree with all the new PC expectations surrounding gender, but they are very much a part of the world today. Thank you for confirming that.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> So, you deny that there have been issues involving trans blacks? Is that it CM?




Can you cite one? Macfury’s having some difficulty doing just that.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Do you believe that "trans-black" individuals deserve the same rights as people you call "trans-gendered"?




All human beings have rights in this society.


----------



## Macfury

We all have rights. Do those identifying as "trans-blacks" and "trans-genders" have the same rights to be recognized by how they identify? This question may be above your pay grade as it probably exceeds the information you received at your Alberta Education workplace training session. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> All human beings have rights in this society.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> We all have rights. Do those identifying as "trans-blacks" and "trans-genders" have the same rights to be recognized by how they identify? This question may be above your pay grade as it probably exceeds the information you received at your Alberta Education workplace training session.



If you’re going to be a jerk, I will stop conversing with you.


----------



## Macfury

Doesn't matter what excuse you're using for your departure this time, because _all_ debate involving you ends with you running away silenced, tail between legs. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> If you’re going to be a jerk, I will stop conversing with you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Doesn't matter what excuse you're using for your departure this time, because _all_ debate involving you ends with you running away silenced, tail between legs.



I’m not going anywhere. I’ve just grown tired of your limited conversational abilities. I’d be happy to talk to other people. Just not you.


----------



## Macfury

Absolutely. You choose to end conversation only with the person who is demolishing your weak arguments. Perfectly understandable that you would want to continue peddling your nonsense to others.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I’m not going anywhere. I’ve just grown tired of your limited conversational abilities. I’d be happy to talk to other people. Just not you.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> No no no.
> 
> 
> 
> This is such a dumb and ignorant post.
> 
> 
> 
> You think someone is going to pretend to be transgender then change back after getting to night at a women's shelter? That is just fear and and a lack of understanding talking. It's the same nonsense that US lawmakers are using to challenge bathroom laws.
> 
> 
> 
> No one wants to be transgender. It's just where they find themselves. Most are closeted because it's too hard to come out. The ones that do experience immeasurable challenges until post op.
> 
> 
> 
> Substance abuse and other issues are common and hence the reason for this individual being in a shelter.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen this kind of prejudice first hand. Very sad.



There’s a lot of prejudice based on fear right here in this thread. The lack of understanding about what transgenderism is by itself is astounding. And some of the people really don’t want to know; they’re content in their ignorance. Ignorance doesn’t change the facts about the world we live in however. What kind of prejudice have you been witness to?


----------



## Macfury

The great guru speaks! Bolstered by a workplace seminar, he's now lecturing.


----------



## smashedbanana

Freddie_Biff said:


> There’s a lot of prejudice based on fear right here in this thread. The lack of understanding about what transgenderism is by itself is astounding. And some of the people really don’t want to know; they’re content in their ignorance. Ignorance doesn’t change the facts about the world we live in however. What kind of prejudice have you been witness to?


It seems that way.

I've worked with 2 transgender people. The first individual we were not inclusive with. I say we because I must include myself in this story if being honest. The person was to put it bluntly weird to all of us. When she finally came out it all made sense and I felt pretty terrible. Everything changed. Jokes that had been made, or efforts to exclude this person all rang horrible. When I got the real story of who this person was it was pretty clear that her life had been a real challenge. And I for sure had never made an effort to be anything like a decent person to her.

I've changed.

I work with another transgender person and I make all efforts to be the same decent person I am with everyone. We don't have to be best friends or anything but there is no reason for me to be less of what am I him to this person, otherwise that would be my failing.

I feel the same way about or laws and our rights. None of you need to like it but none of you should be making an effort to make anyone's life harder than it already is..


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Here is the new reality.
> 
> I am and have been a member of a local licensed premises (It requires membership to enter). Today I stopped in for a beer and burger while at a car show.
> 
> It used to have two bathrooms, a men's and a women's The women's had three private stalls and the men's had one private stall and two urinals. I had to use the bathroom today and when I attempted to enter the men's, it was locked. WTH is with that?
> 
> At any rate I waited and was most surprised that when the person within was done, a woman walked out allowing me access. When I entered, the first time in two months, there were still the same two urinals, but the privacy partition had been removed from the toilet. Then I noticed the door now had a slide bolt lock. Given the shock, I slid the bolt locked, used the urinal, washed and unlocked and left the room open.
> 
> Chatting with the bartender, a female by the way, I asked WTH happened with the men's room. She rolled her eyes and said a transgender female person who IDed as a man had laid a complaint with the Notley NDPers about the bathroom not being accesible to her. Note I said 'her'.
> 
> The government inspector came in and order the stall around the toilet be removed and the deadbolt lock installed on the main door due to the complaint.
> 
> So we now have a bathroom for three, that is reduced for use to only one person if one chooses to lock the door while two guys dance in the hallway, waiting their turn,
> 
> Absolute friggin luncacy and just one more reason why rights have gone mad in this country. Good grief, what next?


Boo hoo you had to wait for the bathroom.


----------



## Macfury

I can understand why you felt bad about being rude to a person socially. However, confessing this does not give your opinion any more weight.

A man who self-identifies as a woman does not belong in a women's shelter. In this case, entering the shelter was making a female rape victim's life harder than it already was.



smashedbanana said:


> It seems that way.
> 
> I've worked with 2 transgender people. The first individual we were not inclusive with. I say we because I must include myself in this story if being honest. The person was to put it bluntly weird to all of us. When she finally came out it all made sense and I felt pretty terrible. Everything changed. Jokes that had been made, or efforts to exclude this person all rang horrible. When I got the real story of who this person was it was pretty clear that her life had been a real challenge. And I for sure had never made an effort to be anything like a decent person to her.
> 
> I've changed.
> 
> I work with another transgender person and I make all efforts to be the same decent person I am with everyone. We don't have to be best friends or anything but there is no reason for me to be less of what am I him to this person, otherwise that would be my failing.
> 
> I feel the same way about or laws and our rights. None of you need to like it but none of you should be making an effort to make anyone's life harder than it already is..


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> I can understand why you felt bad about being rude to a person socially. However, confessing this does not give your opinion any more weight.
> 
> A man who self-identifies as a woman does not belong in a women's shelter. In this case, entering the shelter was making a female rape victim's life harder than it already was.


Alright MF lets get into it.

First and foremost I believe a transgender individual who identifies as a woman does belong in a womens shelter.
Unless you are saying lets build some transgender shelters then ok.

Second the shelter itself has better trained people than you and me who can make decisions as it relates to care for all individuals. Those same people admitted the trans individual and applied care.

Thirdly you are listening to a patient. A person with challenges. Not the staff from the facility. Not an expert on care. Not a doctor or nurse. What's next you let criminals be the ones to tell us how to run jails?

Lastly and I will make this supposition. You seem to think gender is not a choice. And I agree with you. But not on biological grounds. Again who would want to be transgender in the face of this kind of prejudice. Its not a choice.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> Unless you are saying lets build some transgender shelters then ok.


Something separate. The core issue is people escaping from abuse--not sex, gender or self identity. As taxpayers anyone should be able to seek some sort of accommodation in government-run shelters given the room. However, we can never differentiate between a man who says he identifies as a woman, and a man who simply claims that he does, so that he can visit violence on a spouse or ex-girlfriend. In general, there is a huge physical power differential here, and I don't blame any woman who feels unsafe in such a situation, especially a victim of prior violence.

There are men's shelters and I would not have the same problem with allowing anyone into those shelters--however, given the power differential, I would not recommend it.

Private shelters, as noted by exceptions in provincial legislation, should admit only their core clientele, as they choose.



smashedbanana said:


> Thirdly you are listening to a patient. A person with challenges. Not the staff from the facility. Not an expert on care. Not a doctor or nurse. What's next you let criminals be the ones to tell us how to run jails?


It's an unfortunate comparison you chose--female victims of violence and criminals. If I choose not to listen to any of the centre's clients because they face challenges, then I would have to discount everything they said.

The purpose of the women's shelter is 1) to protect the female clientele and 2) to make them feel safe so they can re-establish their lives. If the staff fails to achieve these things, they are not doing a good job. 



smashedbanana said:


> Lastly and I will make this supposition. You seem to think gender is not a choice. And I agree with you. But not on biological grounds. Again who would want to be transgender in the face of this kind of prejudice. Its not a choice.


I can't know whether transgenderism is a choice, just because a person would face social derision as a result. There are many choices people make that subject them to prejudice and derision, but that outcome does not mean they did not make a choice.

In the absence of some objective measure, public policy should simply ask us to treat people decently--not force others to treat an individual's subjective experience as an objective one.


----------



## eMacMan

smashedbanana said:


> No no no.
> 
> This is such a dumb and ignorant post.
> 
> You think someone is going to pretend to be transgender then change back after getting to night at a women's shelter? That is just fear and and a lack of understanding talking. It's the same nonsense that US lawmakers are using to challenge bathroom laws.
> 
> No one wants to be transgender. It's just where they find themselves. Most are closeted because it's too hard to come out. The ones that do experience immeasurable challenges until post op.
> 
> Substance abuse and other issues are common and hence the reason for this individual being in a shelter.
> 
> I've seen this kind of prejudice first hand. Very sad.


Oops here comes the attacks. Always trotted out as the ace in the hole whenever the politically correct realizes they are standing on quicksand.

The issue is and remains, housing a male with a woman who has been traumatized by men. Hiding behind legalities or how (s)heit thinks of them self, does not alter the incredibly bad judgment that originally sparked this debate. 

If the individual otherwise qualified as needing shelter then it should be provided but not in the way that played out. If no one would volunteer to be a room mate then that alone tells us how the women in the shelter felt about this individual. It is not just the (s)heit whose right to self-identify should be protected. The rights of those who are also sheltered are paramount.

As far as I am concerned (s)heit has every right to call itself whatever (s)heit chooses, the limiting factor is when it compromises the rights of others.

That brings us back to enforcing pronoun selection by pointing a gun at our heads. Appropriate perhaps if you have a lot of privatized prisons you are desperate to fill. Otherwise it's the sort of legislation that would be right at home in the Soviet Union, Communist China, Nazi or East Germany. It is a pronounced departure from the principles of freedom which should be the bedrock of the nation.

As to not shifting gender other than being a woman trapped in a mans body:
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/nelson-fluid-sexuality-has-unforeseen-consequences


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

smashedbanana said:


> It seems that way.
> 
> I've worked with 2 transgender people. The first individual we were not inclusive with. I say we because I must include myself in this story if being honest. The person was to put it bluntly weird to all of us. When she finally came out it all made sense and I felt pretty terrible. Everything changed. Jokes that had been made, or efforts to exclude this person all rang horrible. When I got the real story of who this person was it was pretty clear that her life had been a real challenge. And I for sure had never made an effort to be anything like a decent person to her.
> 
> I've changed.
> 
> I work with another transgender person and I make all efforts to be the same decent person I am with everyone. We don't have to be best friends or anything but there is no reason for me to be less of what am I him to this person, otherwise that would be my failing.
> 
> I feel the same way about or laws and our rights. None of you need to like it but none of you should be making an effort to make anyone's life harder than it already is..


Bang on SB. This is similar to my experience with transgender people.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

eMacMan said:


> As to not shifting gender other than being a woman trapped in a mans body:
> https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/nelson-fluid-sexuality-has-unforeseen-consequences


Sorry eMacMan, this article is way out of line and borders on the absurd. People of any race, religion or gender may make false claims to benefit them in many ways. The examples provided in the article are in the extreme to say the least with very few making such claims just to "get ahead" in one manner or a another.

However, do you remember in the late 60's and early 70's when East German women athletes, particularly in any sport requiring brute strength, were tested to see if they were actually female because they were blowing away all their other female competitors. The reason why there were so strong is because they were being pumped full of male hormones and steroids.

This was an example that the author of the article didn't even mention. These women did not want to be men because of gender dysphoria, they simply wanted anyway to get on the podium and this was the way their coaches and probably the government made it happen. 

But in effect relative to today they would be considered to be transitioning to men thorough hormone therapy. The first phase of a full transition.

This is just an example of how twisted one has to be to use hormone therapy just to "get ahead" in life and it is completely non-reflective of any person with actual gender dysphoria.


----------



## eMacMan

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Sorry eMacMan, this article is way out of line and borders on the absurd. People of any race, religion or gender may make false claims to benefit them in many ways. The examples provided in the article are in the extreme to say the least with very few making such claims just to "get ahead" in one manner or a another.
> 
> However, do you remember in the late 60's and early 70's when East German women athletes, particularly in any sport requiring brute strength, were tested to see if they were actually female because they were blowing away all their other female competitors. The reason why there were so strong is because they were being pumped full of male hormones and steroids.
> 
> This was an example that the author of the article didn't even mention. These women did not want to be men because of gender dysphoria, they simply wanted anyway to get on the podium and this was the way their coaches and probably the government made it happen.
> 
> But in effect relative to today they would be considered to be transitioning to men thorough hormone therapy. The first phase of a full transition.
> 
> This is just an example of how twisted one has to be to use hormone therapy just to "get ahead" in life and it is completely non-reflective of any person with actual gender dysphoria.


It was simply a direct response to the implication that because a male claimed he was female, that the claim was legitimate. Pretty sure Corporal Klinger certainly had his real life counterparts in Korea and probably in Vietnam as well. 

I also suspect Chris Nelson is not above writing with tongue in cheek.

However the main point I was trying to convey was the pure evil of gunpoint legislation forcing us to use particular pronouns when referring to certain 'special' individuals.


----------



## Macfury

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> This is just an example of how twisted one has to be to use hormone therapy just to "get ahead" in life and it is completely non-reflective of any person with actual gender dysphoria.


The person did not need to get hormone injections. They needed only to make a subjective claim that they were female to receive the insurance discount.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> The original article states that:
> 
> She does not call both of the people in the story women, she calls them "cis woman" and "trans woman" and then says that shelters are not required to house them in shared accommodation. It does not mean they won't be.
> 
> Likewise, the Supreme Court of BC asserts that organizations such as Vancouver Rape Relief "has the right to organize as a women-only space, irrespective of gender identity" in asking a volunteer who identified as a woman to leave.
> 
> https://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca...ociety-v-nixon-2005-bcca-601-summary-decision


That is not true according to what you posted, the Supreme Court of BC judge does not state that. It is the authour of the article from the Vancouver Rape Relief Society who makes differentiation.

Also just to mention where is there a center for men/boys who have been subjected to rape and pedophilia? Also for male convicts who are entering into the general public after having been raped time and again. Just wondering.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> The person did not need to get hormone injections. They needed only to make a subjective claim that they were female to receive the insurance discount.


Well that is that is a problem with the insurance agency and their due diligence it has nothing to do with actual transgenderism.


----------



## Macfury

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> That is not true according to what you posted, the Supreme Court of BC judge does not state that. It is the authour of the article from the Vancouver Rape Relief Society who makes differentiation.


You can follow it back as far as you want. Here is the BC Court of Appeals upholding the BC Supreme Court decision--however, I can provide links to the original Supreme Court decision as well:



> ...in my view, the reviewing judge was correct in following the guidance of Caldwell and concluding that a group can prefer a sub-group of those whose interests it was created to serve, given good faith and provided there is a rational connection between the preference and the entity's work, or purpose.


https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcca/doc/2005/2005bcca601/2005bcca601.html



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Also just to mention where is there a center for men/boys who have been subjected to rape and pedophilia? ...Just wondering.


It's here:

https://menandfamilies.org/


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> It's here:
> 
> https://menandfamilies.org/


Thanks it looks like they are doing good work.


----------



## Macfury

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Well that is that is a problem with the insurance agency and their due diligence it has nothing to do with actual transgenderism.


The problem is with government policy that directs private entities, such as insurance companies, under threat of penalty, to accept verbatim a subjective claim for gender dysphoria. Just as gender dysphoria cannot be objectively proved, it cannot be disproved under the government's own framework.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

What if the case in Ontario were reversed and the bio-woman had to share with a woman transitioning to be a man. She would have already have received at least hormone therapy and thus in general would be stronger than the bio-woman. Gender in no way guarantees sexual preference so the transitioning woman could still have strong desires for women and now has the strength to over power the bio-woman and rape her.

How would the bio-woman feel about that?


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> The problem is with government policy that directs private entities, such as insurance companies, under threat of penalty, to accept verbatim a subjective claim for gender dysphoria. Just as gender dysphoria cannot be objectively proved, it cannot be disproved under the government's own framework.


Well that is clearly a problem that should be addressed. It would be simple enough to change. Require the claimant to submit a doctor authorized history of the patient. This is common practice when claiming for disability.


----------



## Macfury

If the "woman transitioning to be a man" could be identified as either being aggressive toward other clients or possessing "man parts," they should be segregated or moved to another shelter. 



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What if the case in Ontario were reversed and the bio-woman had to share with a woman transitioning to be a man. She would have already have received at least hormone therapy and thus in general would be stronger than the bio-woman. Gender in no way guarantees sexual preference so the transitioning woman could still have strong desires for women and now has the strength to over power the bio-woman and rape her.
> 
> How would the bio-woman feel about that?


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> If the "woman transitioning to be a man" could be identified, they should be segregated or moved to another shelter.


So what kind of shelter? Only roughly 0.5% of people in Canada identify as transgender. How many shelters are going to be provided strictly for trans people? I can tell you none.

But I can tell you this. When I was in detox in Quebec for alcoholism there were no separate floors for men or women, it was completely co-ed. That is where I first met a transitioning person. 

Jesse was in the process of becoming a man and had multiple rounds of hormone therapy and was in continual contact with the doctor to make sure that she (by birth) was still determined to go to the next level which is physical transformation. It is not a simple choice and process that one makes willy nilly. It often takes years to make the full transition.

The second trans-person I met was in Elliot Lake when I was in rehab. As part of the rehab process you have to write down your life history (in short obviously) and then read it to another person who is further along in the rehab process and Taylor chose me to read it to. I cannot disclose anything that she told me but her life up until then was horrific and she was making all the changes to make her life better, part of which was transitioning.

In order to have any real understanding of trans-people you have to talk to them one on one and then maybe just maybe your prejudice will fall away and you will find that they are just people, different people, but still people who should have the same rights and privileges as the rest of us....

I hear and I forget
I see and I remember
but when I begin to think, act and experience
then I understand.


----------



## Dr.G.

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So what kind of shelter? Only roughly 0.5% of people in Canada identify as transgender. How many shelters are going to be provided strictly for trans people? I can tell you none.
> 
> But I can tell you this. When I was in detox in Quebec for alcoholism there were no separate floors for men or women, it was completely co-ed. That is where I first met a transitioning person.
> 
> Jesse was in the process of becoming a man and had multiple rounds of hormone therapy and was in continual contact with the doctor to make sure that she (by birth) was still determined to go to the next level which is physical transformation. It is not a simple choice and process that one makes willy nilly. It often takes years to make the full transition.
> 
> The second trans-person I met was in Elliot Lake when I was in rehab. As part of the rehab process you have to write down your life history (in short obviously) and then read it to another person who is further along in the rehab process and Taylor chose me to read it to. I cannot disclose anything that she told me but her life up until then was horrific and she was making all the changes to make her life better, part of which was transitioning.
> 
> In order to have any real understanding of trans-people you have to talk to them one on one and then maybe just maybe your prejudice will fall away and you will find that they are just people, different people, but still people who should have the same rights and privileges as the rest of us....
> 
> I hear and I forget
> I see and I remember
> but when I begin to think, act and experience
> then I understand.


A truly excellent and empathetic posting, Steve. It was real, heartfelt and showed the true depth of your humanity. I am honored to have you as a virtual friend. I don't post in the various political threads anymore due to the venom being spread. However, I do peak in every so often to see if the various threads have gotten back on track and deal once again with politics and social issues in a meaningful and non-personal manner. When I saw your posting, knowing a bit of your history, I had to comment to say that it was one of the best posts I have ever read in all my years here in ehMacLand.

Paix et bonne chance, mon ami. Marc


----------



## Macfury

I don't see how the struggles of the people you mention change the needs of a woman to feel safe at a women's shelter. Prejudice does not enter into the equation. It would be like saying that women who expect their shelter to be exclusive to women are prejudiced against men.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So what kind of shelter? Only roughly 0.5% of people in Canada identify as transgender. How many shelters are going to be provided strictly for trans people? I can tell you none.
> 
> But I can tell you this. When I was in detox in Quebec for alcoholism there were no separate floors for men or women, it was completely co-ed. That is where I first met a transitioning person.
> 
> Jesse was in the process of becoming a man and had multiple rounds of hormone therapy and was in continual contact with the doctor to make sure that she (by birth) was still determined to go to the next level which is physical transformation. It is not a simple choice and process that one makes willy nilly. It often takes years to make the full transition.
> 
> The second trans-person I met was in Elliot Lake when I was in rehab. As part of the rehab process you have to write down your life history (in short obviously) and then read it to another person who is further along in the rehab process and Taylor chose me to read it to. I cannot disclose anything that she told me but her life up until then was horrific and she was making all the changes to make her life better, part of which was transitioning.
> 
> In order to have any real understanding of trans-people you have to talk to them one on one and then maybe just maybe your prejudice will fall away and you will find that they are just people, different people, but still people who should have the same rights and privileges as the rest of us....
> 
> I hear and I forget
> I see and I remember
> but when I begin to think, act and experience
> then I understand.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So what kind of shelter? Only roughly 0.5% of people in Canada identify as transgender. How many shelters are going to be provided strictly for trans people? I can tell you none.
> 
> 
> 
> But I can tell you this. When I was in detox in Quebec for alcoholism there were no separate floors for men or women, it was completely co-ed. That is where I first met a transitioning person.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesse was in the process of becoming a man and had multiple rounds of hormone therapy and was in continual contact with the doctor to make sure that she (by birth) was still determined to go to the next level which is physical transformation. It is not a simple choice and process that one makes willy nilly. It often takes years to make the full transition.
> 
> 
> 
> The second trans-person I met was in Elliot Lake when I was in rehab. As part of the rehab process you have to write down your life history (in short obviously) and then read it to another person who is further along in the rehab process and Taylor chose me to read it to. I cannot disclose anything that she told me but her life up until then was horrific and she was making all the changes to make her life better, part of which was transitioning.
> 
> 
> 
> In order to have any real understanding of trans-people you have to talk to them one on one and then maybe just maybe your prejudice will fall away and you will find that they are just people, different people, but still people who should have the same rights and privileges as the rest of us....
> 
> 
> 
> I hear and I forget
> 
> I see and I remember
> 
> but when I begin to think, act and experience
> 
> then I understand.




It makes all the difference in the world when you get to a “trans person” is simply a person. For one, you discard that horrid “it” and “she/he/it” crap. Each person is a person worthy of dignity, first and foremost, regardless of what kind of genitalia they do or do not have.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I don't see how the struggles of the people you mention change the needs of a woman to feel safe at a women's shelter. Prejudice does not enter into the equation. It would be like saying that women who expect their shelter to be exclusive to women are prejudiced against men.



What if Kristi Hanna didn’t feel safe around tall people? Or skinny people? Or red heads? Or black people? Or trans black people? Why should her own dislikes put into jeopardy the rights of all of the other clients in the shelter? She was showing bigotry more than anything, unless it can be established that the trans woman actually did something to threaten Ms. Hanna. Simple existence is not enough.


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness you've used your guru powers to make rape victims feel safe around men. The problem lies with the extreme prejudice shown by the rape victim! You should travel to women's shelters and solve all their problems with this message. So simple!



Freddie_Biff said:


> What if Kristi Hanna didn’t feel safe around tall people? Or skinny people? Or red heads? Or black people? Or trans black people? Why should her own dislikes put into jeopardy the rights of all of the other clients in the shelter? She was showing bigotry more than anything, unless it can be established that the trans woman actually did something to threaten Ms. Hanna. Simple existence is not enough.


----------



## Macfury

They deserve dignity. They do not all deserve access to a women's shelter.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It makes all the difference in the world when you get to a “trans person” is simply a person. For one, you discard that horrid “it” and “she/he/it” crap. Each person is a person worthy of dignity, first and foremost, regardless of what kind of genitalia they do or do not have.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Thank goodness you've used your guru powers to make rape victims feel safe around men. The problem lies with the extreme prejudice shown by the rape victim! You should travel to women's shelters and solve all their problems with this message. So simple!



A thought here. Several years ago, I did some computer maintenance work in the common area of a women's shelter in Calgary. The director sat right next to me for the entire hour and warned me that a couple of their residents could be really touchy, and if either of them came in I might, through no fault of my own, be asked to leave immediately and finish up when they had gone back to their rooms. 

Did not happen but I would have understood and been in agreement had I been asked to leave. Overcoming trauma can be very difficult. Some triggers are easily deduced and need to be handled appropriately.


----------



## CubaMark

_Two items of interest... one from a friend whose judgement I trust, reposting an item from a third person. I have no reason to believe that their grasp of history is lacking, but I'm open to other views. If accurate, it puts the news posting that follows in perspective:_

*Dougal MacDonald:*

*"The Creation of Saudi Arabia"*

"Saudi Arabia was initially created as the creature of British colonialism in the Middle East in order to suppress any potential popular uprisings against the feudal regimes of the area. During the First World War Britain appealed to the Arabs in the Middle East to join it in overthrowing Ottoman rule of their territories, in exchange for British "guarantees" of postwar independence.

One month before the Arab revolt against the Ottomans broke out in 1916, Britain and France secretly agreed to divide the Middle East between their zones of influence, in the Sykes-Picot Agreement. Meanwhile, a British protégé, Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud, an emir and rising power in central Arabia, had captured the Nejd region with its capital at Riyadh.
Britain had already provided arms and money to Ibn Saud during World War I, signing a treaty with him in 1915 and recognising him as ruler of the Nejd province under British protection. By the end of the war, he was receiving a British subsidy of £5,000 a month. By the mid-1920s, his 150,000-strong army had gained control of Arabia. The British recognised Saud’s control, and by 1922 his subsidy was raised to £100,000 a year by Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill.

A 1927 treaty ceded control of Saud's foreign affairs to Britain. When elements of the army, opposed to the British presence, rebelled against the regime in 1929, Ibn Saud called for British support. The RAF and troops from the British-controlled army in neighbouring Iraq were dispatched, and the rebellion was put down the following year.
Ibn Saud highly appreciated Britain’s support, especially during the rebellion, and this paved the way for the development of close relations between the Saudi kingdom and the West that became the core of Saudi foreign policy. The country of Saudi Arabia, largely a British creation, officially proclaimed its existence in 1932.

The new state of Saudi Arabia gave Britain a foothold in the heart of the Arab world. More broadly, Britain had succeeded in achieving its goal of a divided Middle East and a ring of client states out of the remnants of the Ottoman empire. The Gulf states ringing Saudi Arabia, i.e., Aden, Bahrain and Oman, were all feudal regimes protected by the British military.

But during World War II, the US was pushing out Britain in the Middle East, as in much of the world. The U.S. took over the annual subsidy to Saudi Arabia at the Cairo Conference in 1943. Oil drilling in Saudi Arabia began just before the war. It exploded quickly after the war benefiting, in the large part, US monopolies. From that point onward, Saudi Arabia needed no annual allowance."​
And then:

*​'The new norm': Diplomat says Canada may need to get used to being alone on world stage*


----------



## Macfury

I don't think one needs to look at the history of Saudi Arabia to understand why Britain and the US are not jumping to Canada's defense.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I don't think one needs to look at the history of Saudi Arabia to understand why Britain and the US are not jumping to Canada's defense.


Do all folks on the far right side of the political spectrum have some kind of inherent temporal limitation on reality? It seems as though you are unable to appreciate any sort of historical context to contemporary issues. 

You see a guy sitting on the street begging for change, well, "He's lazy, doesn't want to work, welfare bum, etc.". Never mind that he might be a veteran suffering PTSD and not receiving adequate medical support from the government that sent him off to war.

Things usually happen for a reason. Context matters. Understanding the "why" is important.

Ignorance may be bliss, until they come for you....


----------



## Macfury

That certainly doesn't describe me, CM. You're quick with the insults to someone who treats you decently.

Saudi Arabia is trying to put a modern face on its country and Canada has bruised that image publicly. There's nothing in it for either the U.S. or Britain to support such a ham-fisted diplomatic faux pas--regardless of the fact that Canada is in the right. Behind-the scenes diplomacy may solve this, but having other countries dogpile on Saudi Arabia doesn't seem to me to be a winning strategy.

I don't see how the details behind the formation of Saudi Arabia almost 100 years ago informs the choices of either the U.S. or the UK today.



CubaMark said:


> Do all folks on the far right side of the political spectrum have some kind of inherent temporal limitation on reality? It seems as though you are unable to appreciate any sort of historical context to contemporary issues.
> 
> You see a guy sitting on the street begging for change, well, "He's lazy, doesn't want to work, welfare bum, etc.". Never mind that he might be a veteran suffering PTSD and not receiving adequate medical support from the government that sent him off to war.
> 
> Things usually happen for a reason. Context matters. Understanding the "why" is important.
> 
> Ignorance may be bliss, until they come for you....


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> That certainly doesn't describe me, CM. You're quick with the insults to someone who treats you decently.


 Your definition of "insults" seems interestingly malleable... The hard-right-winger in this forum is frequently and directly insulting to an extreme, and yet he has never been chastised that I recall. On the odd moment when he pushed me to the point where I responded in kind, I was labelled the aggressor, a discourse he has continued to wield as an example of my intolerant and abusive nature :lmao: In this case, I wasn't intending any insult, simply observing that conservatives in general seem to willingly ignore context when describing people or events.



Macfury said:


> Saudi Arabia is trying to put a modern face on its country and Canada has bruised that image publicly.


Wow! Who knew that Canada had such power on the world stage! _Seriously?_ As if Saudi Arabia's image could be worse than they themselves have made it to be? The whole women driving issue; Wahhabism; support for global terror; the atrocious treatment of migrant workers, particularly domestic workers from Asia;... lots of things out there to criticize, and none of them based on anything Canada has said or done. Great that SA is moving forward into the 20th Century [sic]... but the ultraconservative elements of its society will do whatever they can to impede progress.



> I don't see how the details behind the formation of Saudi Arabia almost 100 years ago informs the choices of either the U.S. or the UK today.


The inference is obvious: Canada's criticism of SA will receive little official traction with other Western powers as SA has been, from its creation by the UK and USA, a tool of the extension of imperial power in the region.


----------



## SINC

When will Canada learn that it is but a pimple on the butt of a blue whale in terms of global politics?

The horses asses who are currently running this country (into the ground) haven't got a clue, yet seem determined to show we matter in global matters. We don't.

When will we learn that we are a big country with a small population and an abundance of resources? When will we capitalize on those abundant resources and quit buying energy of any kind from other nations? Instead the pipsqueaks in power criticize other nations for human rights issues while they continue to commit rights abuse against our own indigenous people. When will they stop sending our tax dollars to fund fresh water in other lands when natives here exist with the very same problem, gone without aid at home? When will they recognize that seniors and veterans in our own country need more income, but after paying taxes for years, they now want them to exist on $700 a month or so while they give over triple that to non Canadians they seek to import to do nothing but drive up government costs to keep them?

Lefty do gooders can scream all they like about shooting our mouths off on global issues that largely do not concern us as being a good thing to do. Trouble is they are dead wrong in their thinking. Charity begins at home is an old saying new politicians need to learn, and fast.

And last, but certainly not least, nothing we can do by punishing ourselves with regressive carbon taxes will make a single iota of difference to the global climate. It's time they faced facts and learned that too. It's nothing but a play to look good on the world stage and that too is laughable.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Your definition of "insults" seems interestingly malleable... The hard-right-winger in this forum is frequently and directly insulting to an extreme, and yet he has never been chastised that I recall. On the odd moment when he pushed me to the point where I responded in kind, I was labelled the aggressor, a discourse he has continued to wield as an example of my intolerant and abusive nature :lmao:


I can't fight your battles with others for you CM.



CubaMark said:


> In this case, I wasn't intending any insult, simply observing that conservatives in general seem to willingly ignore context when describing people or events.


Your observation is simply wrong.



CubaMark said:


> Wow! Who knew that Canada had such power on the world stage! _Seriously?_


It isn't and nobody cares. That's why the US and Britain aren't running to Trudeau's defense.



CubaMark said:


> The inference is obvious: Canada's criticism of SA will receive little official traction with other Western powers as SA has been, from its creation by the UK and USA, a tool of the extension of imperial power in the region.


Wouldn't Canada's creation by the UK earn us the support of Britain? Guess nobody cares about Canada as a tool of the extension of imperial power. As you said earlier, Canada is getting little support because Canada doesn't matter.

Most of the people in power have no understanding of history and they could not care less who created Saudi Arabia 90 years ago. Oil now? That works!


----------



## eMacMan

I keep coming back to the thought that twitter is for twits. Justin is merely doing his best to prove that hypothesis.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> It isn't and nobody cares.


Who knew that Canada had such a presence on the international arms market? :yikes:

*Canada now the second biggest arms exporter to Middle East*

Canada has soared in global rankings to become the second biggest arms dealer to the Middle East on the strength of its massive sale of combat vehicles to Saudi Arabia, new figures show.

It's a first for Canada, according to IHS Jane's, the defence industry publisher that tracks military spending. Canada was previously the sixth-largest weapons vendor to Mideast countries. The United States is No. 1.

Canada has also vaulted to sixth overall among all arms-exporting countries, based on rankings released by Jane's this week. This means only five countries are currently selling more weapons and military equipment.

IHS Jane's analyst Ben Moores said he suspects Canada has never ranked so highly among all arms-exporting countries and that it certainly hasn't held that position in the past 15 years.

The Trudeau government, asked whether it took pride in Canada's expanded role as a weapons seller and would feature this achievement in trade promotion materials, referred the questions to a department of Global Affairs bureaucrat. The civil servant instead said Ottawa hopes to toughen screening of weapons sold to foreigners.

* * *​
The Trudeau government gave the green light for the $15-billion sale of fighting vehicles to proceed to Saudi Arabia, a country regularly ranked by watchdog Freedom House as among the "worst of the worst" on human rights.

The Liberal decision to issue export permits, in April, was made despite an internal Global Affairs report warning of worrisome developments in human rights and analyses from watchdogs such as Amnesty International, which said human rights in Saudi Arabia have "steadily deteriorated" in the previous 12 months.

(Globe & Mail)​


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

I'm filled with revulsion for the "takers" on the right side of the screen.


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


>


Do they have caps on how cheap school lunches can be? How cheap meds can be? and how cheap day care can be? People act like the Premier is giving money and paying people to let us have cheaper beer. All he has done is gotten ride of some ridiculous rule that had a minimum price tag on beer. This was again the nanny state in full force. We the people could not be trusted to drink responsibly therefore the government needed to step.


----------



## Macfury

Yep. A stupid cartoon for stupid people. There's no equivalency. Believe it or not, Quebec sets a _minimum_ price for gasoline.



wonderings said:


> Do they have caps on how cheap school lunches can be? How cheap meds can be? and how cheap day care can be? People act like the Premier is giving money and paying people to let us have cheaper beer. All he has done is gotten ride of some ridiculous rule that had a minimum price tag on beer. This was again the nanny state in full force. We the people could not be trusted to drink responsibly therefore the government needed to step.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> Do they have caps on how cheap school lunches can be? How cheap meds can be? and how cheap day care can be? People act like the Premier is giving money and paying people to let us have cheaper beer. All he has done is gotten ride of some ridiculous rule that had a minimum price tag on beer. This was again the nanny state in full force. We the people could not be trusted to drink responsibly therefore the government needed to step.



It’s about priorities.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Yep. A stupid cartoon for stupid people. There's no equivalency. Believe it or not, Quebec sets a _minimum_ price for gasoline.




Stupid comments from stupid readers too.


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> It’s about priorities.


He made that a campaign promise and politicians can do more then one thing at a time. Of all the things to do this is probably the easiest that involves the least amount of effort and costs us the tax payers nothing unlike the previous government who gave money to subsidize small breweries with our tax paying dollars.


----------



## Macfury

Forcing other people pay for the goods and services you consume is your priority? I guess it should come as no surprise.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It’s about priorities.


----------



## FeXL

Happy to!

Rachel Dolezal Has Changed Her Name & Black People Are Pissed



Freddie_Biff said:


> Please cite a case where “trans black” discrimination has taken place.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> The issue with this case was the woman in the hostel had been abused and had some traumatic issues. When the transgendered individual was housed with her, that individual presented more male, and in talking with the woman stated some sexually oriented language. To a woman who was dealing with PTSD, the roomie was more man than woman and in her mind set was a threat. There was some reporting that the woman had been raped and that caused much of her PTSD. The OHR board missed, in my opinion, her right to feel safe..
> 
> We can argue the various points, and gain insight in the trans-mind set ( thanx to an interesting article posted by imbackforawhile .) but I don’t see that as relevant here. A woman felt threatened and when she complained she was tagged with discrimination.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Then why is the plumbing nearly always surgically altered?



Freddie_Biff said:


> It’s not about the plumbing.


----------



## FeXL

And you Progs are far more clueless than you realize.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You right wingers are not nearly as aware as you think you are.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> *Actually, they placed an in process individual who presented more male than female in a room with a traumatized individual who reacted negatively to*, in her view and also by the sexual statements made by the inprocess individual a male. It was further reported that the in process individual indicated that they had a pregnant girl friend. If you were a traumatized woman in that situation you would probably have reacted the same way. What the shelter should have done was have rooms set aside for transgendered individuals...it would appear they didn’t.
> 
> Don’t go down the rabbit hole of what is male and what is female on this. The fact is the shelter did not meet either clients needs. It took an easy way out but created a political issue when it needn’t be. Political solutions to non political problems never seem to work out well in my opinion.


Bold mine.

Once again, Rps nails it. :clap:


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> The Trans Mountain pipe line is going to cost $1.9 billion more than we were lead to believe by the government. They are either liars or they are stupid or both.


I vote both.


----------



## FeXL

She was an _in transition_ trans woman. That _is_ the issue.



Freddie_Biff said:


> She’s a trans woman, whether you agree or not. Otherwise this wouldn’t be an issue.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> The fact that you worship at, and *are willing to sacrifice a traumatized woman on the alter of political correctness*, places absolutely no obligation on me or anyone else to do the same.


Bold mine.

This is when the left starts to eat its own & I just stand back, popcorn in hand, & watch the disaster unfold.

I jes' luvs me the little priority list they make up.

For example, all women have the same rights, unless those rights have been infringed upon by a Muslim male (say, a beating or a rape). If the woman is Muslim, then it's a Somewhat Bad Thing but we won't talk about it because, obviously, Muslim. However, if the woman is white & especially Christian then it's perfectly acceptable & she probably brought it upon herself by dressing like a shameless hussy anyways. Trans women have more rights than non trans. A black woman trumps all women in victimhood status, no matter what. Unless, of course, the female victim is foreign. Then she is head victim.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Exactly. Guilt-ridden progs get "woke" and wrap themselves in unsupportable pretzel-logic to win approval from their peers. Even a rape victim gets tossed on the altar of political correctness in an effort to support the type of hare-brained "reasoning" we're seeing here.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> You could say that about anyone then, why not put a man in there as well who needed a safe shelter. He had done nothing but would be denied and discriminated against because of who he IS and not what he has DONE.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Because even if you believe in gender dysphoria, it's been noted this person was _transitioning_. 

Which then begs the question, at what point do you actually become a transwoman? Just thinking about it? Read a couple of online articles? Met one? Started hormone therapy? Gotcher gonads removed? Had breast implants? Had your artificial vagina installed? Had all the work done 5 years ago, realized the folly of it all & was now transitioning back?

When, Freddie?



Freddie_Biff said:


> She’s not a man. Why do you keep referring to her as such? She self-identifies as a trans woman.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Because even if you believe in gender dysphoria, it's been noted this person was _transitioning_.
> 
> 
> 
> Which then begs the question, at what point do you actually become a transwoman? Just thinking about it? Read a couple of online articles? Met one? Started hormone therapy? Gotcher gonads removed? Had breast implants? Had your artificial vagina installed? Had all the work done 5 years ago, realized the folly of it all & was now transitioning back?
> 
> 
> 
> When, Freddie?



God, you’re dense. Time to catch up to the current year. If you’re a trans woman or trans man, you don’t need to have an F-ing operation. You don’t even need to have papers indicating your intent to get a change in name or other gender markers. Read the Ontario policies FFS.

For your reference:  http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/gender-identity-and-gender-expression-brochure


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What do people think about this?


I think The Dauphin is an idiot. 

If he were truly concerned with SA's human rights violations, he'd tell them what they could do with the 87,000 barrels of Saudi oil that arrive on our shores each day.

Now we've lost the sales of our wheat & barley.

He is single handedly destroying our markets.

SA is pulling all students out of Canadian universities & expels the Canadian ambassador.

Add to this Charlie Foxtrot the fact that Trump is handing him his butt regarding NAFTA, for the life of me I can't see anybody voting for him ever again.

Then again, I don't think we've seriously plumbed the depths of Prog stupidity, either...

h/t SDA & HoM.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Leftists are responsible for the crazy green energy fiascos and pipeline policies that have frustrated our goals of energy independence.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Something separate. The core issue is people escaping from abuse--not sex, gender or self identity. As taxpayers anyone should be able to seek some sort of accommodation in government-run shelters given the room. However, we can never differentiate between a man who says he identifies as a woman, and a man who simply claims that he does, so that he can visit violence on a spouse or ex-girlfriend. In general, there is a huge physical power differential here, and I don't blame any woman who feels unsafe in such a situation, especially a victim of prior violence.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> But I can tell you this. When I was in detox in Quebec for alcoholism there were no separate floors for men or women, it was completely co-ed.


Yeah. And, what was the common thread there? Victims of rape? Survivors of murder attempts? Some other physical threat? No.

You all had another demon in common. One which, I'm confidant in stating, was nowhere near the premises.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Then why is the plumbing nearly always surgically altered?




Doesn’t nail it. 

Many times the surgery is the last step in the process, if that step is ever even reached. You have much to learn, my child.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Yeah. And, what was the common thread there? Victims of rape? Survivors of murder attempts? Some other physical threat? No.
> 
> 
> 
> You all had another demon in common. One which, I'm confidant in stating, was nowhere near the premises.



Kristi Hanna was in a shelter for victims of addiction, not victims of rape. So was the trans woman.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> A thought here. Several years ago, I did some computer maintenance work in the common area of a women's shelter in Calgary. The director sat right next to me for the entire hour and warned me that a couple of their residents could be really touchy, and if either of them came in I might, through no fault of my own, be asked to leave immediately and finish up when they had gone back to their rooms.


For years I've been attending the Lethbridge Toy Run. The toys are always dropped off at the YMCA, for the children of the battered women living there.

We are told specifically at the start of each Toy Run to not enter then building after dropping off the toys. The reason should be obvious.


----------



## FeXL

You are extremely intolerant of any view which does not parallel yours.

And, yes, you can be abusive.

I can deal with both of those, including your wilful ignorance.

However, your biggest offence on these boards is your hypocrisy.



CubaMark said:


> On the odd moment when he pushed me to the point where I responded in kind, I was labelled the aggressor, a discourse he has continued to wield as an example of my intolerant and abusive nature


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I can't fight your battles with others for you CM.


S'okay. He does't do a very good job himself...


----------



## FeXL

I did.



CubaMark said:


> Who knew that Canada had such a presence on the international arms market?


----------



## FeXL

So, as long as you claim to be TG, with no other supporting _anything_, hey, you're TG! Congrats!

Then, a rape victim ends up rooming with a <whatever>, who is still fully equipped with everything needed to commit a rape, *and* has a pregnant GF, and said rape victim notes her discomfort with the situation and now everybody is blaming her for being insensitive about TG's.

Does that about sum it up?



Freddie_Biff said:


> God, you’re dense.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> So, as long as you claim to be TG, with no other supporting _anything_, hey, you're TG! Congrats!
> 
> Then, a rape victim ends up rooming with a <whatever>, who is still fully equipped with everything needed to commit a rape, *and* has a pregnant GF, and said rape victim notes her discomfort with the situation and now everybody is blaming her for being insensitive about TG's.
> 
> Does that about sum it up?


It does to anyone who thinks clearly about the facts. Freddie not so much.


----------



## FeXL

<whoosh>

You said the surgery isn't important.

Yet it must be, because most get surgery of some sort done.

And, if I was your child, I would have put a bullet in my head by now, because of _your_ terminal stupidity.

I probably am more informed on the topic than you are Freddie. I have a niece going through it and her, my sister & I have spoken at length about the process.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Doesn’t nail it.
> 
> Many times the surgery is the last step in the process, if that step is ever even reached. You have much to learn, my child.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> You said the surgery isn't important.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it must be, because most get surgery of some sort done.
> 
> 
> 
> And, if I was your child, I would have put a bullet in my head by now, because of _your_ terminal stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> I probably am more informed on the topic than you are Freddie. I have a niece going through it and her, my sister & I have spoken at length about the process.



I wish the best for your niece. Especially having to contend with an ignorant uncle like you.

Surgery is not a requirement for someone to be transsexual and be protected under human rights legislation. Did you read the link I provided for you? It would help for you to actually be informed, and not just say you know.


----------



## FeXL

Personally, it's the stupidest thing she's ever done. She has serious mental issues and anybody who thinks that transgenderism is any kind of a solution to her obvious mental health problems is even more screwed up than she is.

Ever since being a toddler she's had identity issues. She's required regular visits to any number & type of mental health workers over the years. Her mother went along with it because she read some statistic somewhere that indicated suicide was high in "suppressed" TG's. I don't have the heart to tell her that particular statistic changes very little _after_ becoming TG.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I wish the best for your niece.


<whoosh>

Nobody said surgery was a _requirement_.

You said the surgery didn't matter.

I countered with the well-known fact that most get surgery of some sort, therefore it must be important.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Surgery is not a requirement for someone to be transsexual...


I gave your link the same thoughtful attention you give to mine.

Two can play at that game.

And, after having many hours of discussion with someone undergoing the actual process, tons more with her mother, plus additional reading of my own, there is nothing you could offer me, Freddie, which would entice me to read a single word on the topic suggested by you. Especially, gov't policy written by snivelling servants who have about as much of a grasp on reality as you do...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Did you read the link I provided for you? It would help for you to actually be informed, and not just say you know.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> And, after having many hours of discussion with someone undergoing the actual process, tons more with her mother, plus additional reading of my own, there is nothing you could offer me, Freddie, which would entice me to read a single word on the topic suggested by you. Especially, gov't policy written by snivelling servants who have about as much of a grasp on reality as you do...


Good grief, are we to believe that Freddie doesn't know his hole from a hole in the ground? Enquiring minds want to know. Any real time experience on your end Frank?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Personally, it's the stupidest thing she's ever done. She has serious mental issues and anybody who thinks that transgenderism is any kind of a solution to her obvious mental health problems is even more screwed up than she is.
> 
> 
> 
> Ever since being a toddler she's had identity issues. She's required regular visits to any number & type of mental health workers over the years. Her mother went along with it because she read some statistic somewhere that indicated suicide was high in "suppressed" TG's. I don't have the heart to tell her that particular statistic changes very little _after_ becoming TG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <whoosh>
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody said surgery was a _requirement_.
> 
> 
> 
> You said the surgery didn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I countered with the well-known fact that most get surgery of some sort, therefore it must be important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gave your link the same thoughtful attention you give to mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Two can play at that game.
> 
> 
> 
> And, after having many hours of discussion with someone undergoing the actual process, tons more with her mother, plus additional reading of my own, there is nothing you could offer me, Freddie, which would entice me to read a single word on the topic suggested by you. Especially, gov't policy written by snivelling servants who have about as much of a grasp on reality as you do...



Your loss. It’s also quite telling that you think because your niece’s decision may be misguided that ALL transgendered individuals must also be misguided. I know a few myself, both with the surgery and without, and they’re each as individual as a set of fingerprints. You presume far too much.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Good grief, are we to believe that Freddie doesn't know his hole from a hole in the ground? Enquiring minds want to know. Any real time experience on your end Frank?



You ask some damn strange questions, Don. What kind of holes are you asking about, and why are you so curious?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> You ask some damn strange questions, Don. What kind of holes are you asking about, and why are you so curious?


Wholes aside, my question was do you have any first hand experience in dealing with a family member who has transgender tendancies?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Wholes aside, my question was do you have any first hand experience in dealing with a family member who has transgender tendancies?



Nope. Friends and students though. I know several and have talked with them about their situations.


----------



## SINC

So, you agree they are tendancies then, correct?


----------



## wonderings

A petition to sign if you want our Prime Minister to be held to the same standards he has held those he fired
https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-1787


----------



## FeXL

Reading a policy document prepared by a bleeding heart Prog gov't? Doubtful.

However, I can see why it would appeal to you: Light, fluffy, easy to chew. Low on facts & empirical evidence, high on nonsensical, feel-good unicorn fart virtue signalling.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Your loss.


Where did I make that connection? Be specific.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It’s also quite telling that you think because your niece’s decision may be misguided that ALL transgendered individuals must also be misguided.


We're all individuals, Freddie.

Doesn't mean that many of us aren't misguided &/or mentally ill.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I know a few myself, both with the surgery and without, and they’re each as individual as a set of fingerprints. You presume far too much.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> A petition to sign if you want our Prime Minister to be held to the same standards he has held those he fired


Done!

Thx for the link.

I purely hope he refuses. The more light that decent Canadians can shine on this hypocrite, the better.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> So, you agree they are tendancies then, correct?




Are you asking me? Tendencies to what?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Way to go, Juthdin!

Canadian Oil Crisis Continues As Prices Plunge



> Canadian oil producers are once again suffering from a steep discount for their oil, causing the largest spread between Canadian oil and WTI in years.
> 
> Western Canada Select (WCS) recently fell below $40 per barrel, dropping to as low as $38 per barrel on Tuesday. That put it roughly $31 per barrel below WTI, the largest discount since 2013.
> 
> *The sharp decline in WCS prices is a reflection of a shortage of pipeline capacity.*


Yeah, emphasis mine.

Not that the substitute drama teacher can figger this out. And even if his handler, Butts, whispered it in his ear, nor does he care. As long as he appears to be a good little virtue signaller to all his minions in BC, ON & Kaybeck...

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

NAFTA Update: President Trump Notes Progress With Mexico on Bilateral Trade – Preparing Different BiLat Terms For Canada…



> Canada is FUBAR. No-one quite knows how FUBAR Canada is, because no-one has followed the brilliant Wolverine crew closely enough to spot the strategy.


I can tell you the stategy:

They're gonna hold their brefs until they turn blue, topple over and then Team Trump is going to trample over their inert bodies. When they wake up, they won't know what hit 'em.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So many bad memories...

Turns out Justin Trudeau is more like Pierre than we feared



> Five decades later, son Justin has Canada on a similar path. After inheriting the Stephen Harper government’s zero-deficit balance sheet a little over two years ago, Trudeau’s budgeted 2017–18 deficit has rocketed to $18 billion, with continuing deficits forecast to add $117 billion to the national debt by 2023. That’s reason enough to worry, but the picture is certain to get much worse. Why? For the same reason that Pierre Trudeau’s deficits spiralled out of control: the imposition of ideologically socialist government policies on a capitalist free-market economy.


One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> After inheriting the Stephen Harper government’s zero-deficit balance sheet a little over two years ago, Trudeau’s budgeted 2017–18 deficit has rocketed to $18 billion, with continuing deficits forecast to add $117 billion to the national debt by 2023.


Sorry but the Harpoon turned in a Surplus in his first year. After that nothing but red ink. 

Deficits of: 55.6, 33.4, 26.3, 18.4, and 5.2 Billions. The last year was a very slight surplus, that probably reflected creative election year bookkeeping, but hardly compensates for the 4 big and one minor deficits he turned in.

I have little use for the Turdeau government, but have little doubt the conmen will rack up equally terrifying deficits should they supplant him.


----------



## FeXL

This Is Awkward



> Not the mosque losing charitable status — that Stewart Bell’s story, along with that photograph, somehow managed to sneak past Global’s internal narrative scrubbers.


Yeppers...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on The Dope.

Justin Trudeau Stands Firm, and then Contradicts himself on Saudi Arabia



> On Wednesday afternoon Justin Trudeau fielded questions at a press conference, generally to discuss the ongoing dispute with Saudi Arabia.
> 
> The male feminist groper, who admires China for their “basic dictatorship” is currently playing the role of human rights advocate. The whole exercise was pretty tame and boring, filled with the standard barrage of “ums” and “aaahs” from the Prime Minister.


More:



> When Saudi Arabia was named to the UN council on women’s rights, while women in the Kingdom were unable to leave their homes without a male guardian, where was Justin Trudeau? When the Islamic Republic of Iran murdered a Canadian, Kavous Seyed-Emami, and took his wife hostage the Prime Minister was silent, and still continues to be!
> 
> Trudeau continued to meander through the questions and then proclaimed, “I don’t want to dictate to other countries what their positions should be”. Oh really? That is exactly how we got ourselves into this mess in the first place.


Yeppers.


----------



## CubaMark

_An unexpected repercussion of the Canada - Saudi Arabia tiff...._

*The Saudi temper tantrum could land one devastating blow — to Canadian health care*


----------



## SINC

Tis but one more example of why we must vote out this idiot Turdeau and his amateur ministers before he completely screws this country. Oh, wait . . .


----------



## wonderings

CubaMark said:


> _An unexpected repercussion of the Canada - Saudi Arabia tiff...._
> 
> *The Saudi temper tantrum could land one devastating blow — to Canadian health care*


Just skimmed through the article, definitely stuff I did not know. I think this might be a good kick in the pants we need. This was taken from the linked article:


"But, because Canadian medical residents go on to become full-fledged Canadian doctors (unlike the Saudis, who go back home when their residencies are complete), that would necessarily mean creating more permanent positions for specialists and family doctors in Canada, which carries obvious costs for the provinces. Schwarcz says creating more positions is not just necessary, but urgent.

"Our system is short staffed. It's obvious to anyone who looks at the waiting lists and the beds in hospital corridors. How ridiculous is it that some Canadians cannot find family doctors? The basic problem is that there aren't enough doctors in Canada, period.""



I think it would be a good idea to fill those 800 positions the Saudi students take with Canadians, people who will train and learn here and remain here in Canada as doctors. There is an obvious shortage already, certainly the money our governments waste would be nothing compared to having 800 new doctors.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada-Saudi _tiff_? 

Saudi _temper tantrum_? :yikes:

Leave it to the clueless left to not realize that the clueless left is the cause of this international Charlie Foxtrot.

If The Dope had not broached this issue in typical ham-fisted, SJW, virtue signalling style, rather than through more diplomatic means, he wouldn't look like the horse's ass he does. Oh, wait...



CubaMark said:


> An unexpected repercussion of the Canada - Saudi Arabia tiff....
> 
> The Saudi temper tantrum could land one devastating blow — to Canadian health care


----------



## Macfury

The government should strip the Canadian Medical Association of its power to limit the number of physicians entering the Canadian market. It's a marketing board pure and simple.



wonderings said:


> Just skimmed through the article, definitely stuff I did not know. I think this might be a good kick in the pants we need. This was taken from the linked article:
> 
> 
> "But, because Canadian medical residents go on to become full-fledged Canadian doctors (unlike the Saudis, who go back home when their residencies are complete), that would necessarily mean creating more permanent positions for specialists and family doctors in Canada, which carries obvious costs for the provinces. Schwarcz says creating more positions is not just necessary, but urgent.
> 
> "Our system is short staffed. It's obvious to anyone who looks at the waiting lists and the beds in hospital corridors. How ridiculous is it that some Canadians cannot find family doctors? The basic problem is that there aren't enough doctors in Canada, period.""
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be a good idea to fill those 800 positions the Saudi students take with Canadians, people who will train and learn here and remain here in Canada as doctors. There is an obvious shortage already, certainly the money our governments waste would be nothing compared to having 800 new doctors.


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> The government should strip the Canadian Medical Association of its power to limit the number of physicians entering the Canadian market. It's a marketing board pure and simple.


I know pretty much nothing about this, but is there a cap because of the government is paying doctors and they "budget" for only so many?


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I know pretty much nothing about this, but is there a cap because of the government is paying doctors and they "budget" for only so many?


My apologies. Your supposition is the correct one--the government reduces the number of education positions, controlling supply and thereby controlling medical costs.


----------



## SINC

wonderings said:


> I know pretty much nothing about this, but is there a cap because of the government is paying doctors and they "budget" for only so many?





Macfury said:


> My apologies. Your supposition is the correct one--the government reduces the number of education positions, controlling supply and thereby controlling medical costs.


Not to mention the provincial professional medical associations in each province (AKA unions  ) who tightly control the number of 'members' who can practice in their territory which of course keeps demand (and salaries) high.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Not to mention the provincial professional medical associations in each province (AKA unions  ) who tightly control the number of 'members' who can practice in their territory which of course keeps demand (and salaries) high.


I have always believed this to be the case, SINC--but I can't find documentation to support it, despite an extensive search this morning.


----------



## CubaMark

wonderings said:


> I know pretty much nothing about this, but is there a cap because of the government is paying doctors and they "budget" for only so many?


Since the topic has come up - let me share with you a post from a local doctor today... who has been shouting from the rooftops that somebody —anybody— needs to do _something_ but is getting no response. The hospital in Amherst is literally - and I mean that - on its last legs. If staffing issues aren't addressed, there will be no choice but to shut her down. And emergency room closures at all —yes, ALL— nearby hospitals and health care facilities are more than enough evidence of a crisis.

*Dr G Brian Ferguson* Inc
_2 hrs ·_ 
*My Final Warning/Final Words*

It is sad to report that despite my original Facebook posting about our local hospital/health care crisis on July 18/18 I have not heard from local officials (with the exception of our local MLA's) despite reaching numbers of greater than 115,000 of concerned citizens in our province.

Knowing Mayor Kogon's affiliations and demeanor I understand his lack of public support. But Amherst Town Council's silent approach has stunned me (far cry from the 1990's).

In regard to the Warden, CFO, and elected Council of the Cumberland Municipal Office which represents 2/3 of the residents of our great county, your silent voices have been heard.

Why is 2018 so different from the 1990's?

Is is possible that political affiliation can trump health care at our expense?

There are workable solutions as I alluded to during my Global TV interview and yet we are ignored.

The clock is running and time is running out on CRHCC.

Balanced budgets are important but at what costs? Of all the misplaced expenditures by Government, is health care that low on the essentials of our Province?

If you have saved $400,000 in your account and yet you have a home that has fallen down around you – are you truly rich?

If you have a balanced budget for a number of years but allowed the health care system to die by attrition are we better off as Nova Scotians?

It is apparent by the lack response by the Mayor of Amherst, Amherst town council, Cumberland County Warden, CFO & Cumberland Municipal Council members that the death of Cumberland Regional Health Care Center is an acceptable loss.

To that end if the above so choose that I apologize to the Premier of N.S. and the Minister of Health I will do so and quietly leave the sinking ship.

I can only hope that they will personally gather and collaborate in the responsibilities of the deaths that would have been prevented.

As a sign of good faith to your cause I will remain further silent and plan my departure.
To my patients I will first serve the needs of my hospital and devote the remainder of my time to my private practice. Greater time needs of CRHCC will mean less time in my office. To compensate I will extend my daily office hours to accommodate my private practice.

This is obviously not sustainable, but health permitting I will continue until my departure.
Cumberland County residents have been kind to Dr. Ferguson, Dr. White and our four professional sons. I hope that we have returned the same to you.

From a government point of view I realize that we in Cumberland County only represent 3.5% of the population of N.S. But we are not second class citizens as proved in the 1990's Liberal Health Care Reform revolt. The question is; are these rebels still alive?
Deliberate actions and willful neglect sadly can lead to a balanced budget – but at what expense?

G. Brian Ferguson, MD​


----------



## FeXL

What measurable evidence do you have that this is purely, partly or even incidentally a _funding_ problem?

And no, I'm not asking this to be a smartass.

Years ago Alberta had some expensive "expert" imported from Ontario to cure all our health care woes. He & his committee came up with this hare-brained scheme to close down nearly all small town hospitals (allegedly because of duplication of services, among other things, despite the fact that were some very efficiently operated small town hospitals), turn them into long term care centres, etc., and all that saved money would centralize to the big city hospitals which would cut down on wait times & improve the quality of health care in the province.

Well, he got a big paycheck, small town Alberta got screwed, big city Alberta still hasn't managed to cut wait times (they've gotten worse) and all this despite the fact that a ton of money has been spent.

There's no point in just throwing money at a problem in the hopes that it will go away. It won't. The system will eat every dollar it's given & ask for more.



CubaMark said:


> Since the topic has come up - let me share with you a post from a local doctor today... who has been shouting from the rooftops that somebody —anybody— needs to do _something_ but is getting no response. The hospital in Amherst is literally - and I mean that - on its last legs. If staffing issues aren't addressed, there will be no choice but to shut her down. And emergency room closures at all —yes, ALL— nearby hospitals and health care facilities are more than enough evidence of a crisis.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> What measurable evidence do you have that this is purely, partly or even incidentally a _funding_ problem?
> [....]
> There's no point in just throwing money at a problem in the hopes that it will go away. It won't. The system will eat every dollar it's given & ask for more.


I agree (Satan is ice skating, surely).

When sharing another post on health care in Nova Scotia, I prefaced with this comment:

_"Wanted: someone "in the know" who can explain the provincial and federal issues of our ruinous health care system.

Is this the fallout from extended pharmaceutical patent protections from the Mulroney era? 

Is there a behind-the-scenes move across both major federal political parties to underfund Canada's health care system to soften up the population's acceptance of privatized health care? 

Is this the result of NAFTA's forced opening of management contracts that let US and other multinationals without a local stake control decision-making for efficiency's sake rather than ensuring sufficient resources to maintain services? 

What the hell is going on, and why aren't more people doing something about it?"_​


----------



## Macfury

Considering the massive health care budgets in each province, I doubt underfunding is the problem. You can never "adequately" fund an endless pit of need of an aging population. As new procedures and treatments become available people will demand all of them--for free.

A case-in-point is rising veterinary bills. Fifty years ago your pet would have a bone set, receive a slate of routine operations and medications--perhaps an X-Ray--or be put under. Today they can take advantage of any number of medications, ultrasounds, biopsies and intricate procedures, so prices are skyrocketing, if you choose to give your pet all of the care available.


----------



## CubaMark

There is the eternal issue of wait times for some surgeries, colonoscopies, etc., but the most significant problem we're facing in Nova Scotia is very basic: Primary coverage. There aren't enough family doctors, ergo, people have to go to the ER for stupid things. Lack of primary attention also has repercussions in untreated conditions that become larger, more expensive problems.

It's astounding to me that a relatively wealthy country is nonetheless incapable of ensuring that its citizens can at the very least get a Doctor's appointment within a week of calling (a relative of mine has just lost about 80% of his hearing, suddenly, in both ears. He has a 3 week wait to see his doctor).


----------



## Macfury

If you talked to decisonmakers in government you would understand that this is deliberate cost control. When care is broadened to more people, it's rationed over time. They take an actuarial model and determine how long you can let someone suffer before their condition improves naturally, or they die, and how many people will die and fall off the rolls so they won't have to treat them--just like private insurance companies.

How about nine months for a free Ontario MRI for a suspected brain tumour? Wait time at Buffalo MRI in Buffalo, NY--one day, but you pay $600. There is always a trade-off between cost and responsiveness. If you're a sports figure or know someone inside the hospital politburo, responsiveness and level of care improve miraculously.



CubaMark said:


> There is the eternal issue of wait times for some surgeries, colonoscopies, etc., but the most significant problem we're facing in Nova Scotia is very basic: Primary coverage. There aren't enough family doctors, ergo, people have to go to the ER for stupid things. Lack of primary attention also has repercussions in untreated conditions that become larger, more expensive problems.
> 
> It's astounding to me that a relatively wealthy country is nonetheless incapable of ensuring that its citizens can at the very least get a Doctor's appointment within a week of calling (a relative of mine has just lost about 80% of his hearing, suddenly, in both ears. He has a 3 week wait to see his doctor).


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> There is always a trade-off between cost and responsiveness. If you're a sports figure or know someone inside the hospital politburo, responsiveness and level of care improve miraculously.


There's a private MRI unit at the U of Lethbridge with a very short wait time, if you want to pay out of pocket. It's always busy. At the local hospital, the lineup is months long.

In addition, I may have posted about this years ago, can't recall.

I have a wealthy cousin who lives in Saskatchewan. Found out he had the Big C about 10 years ago (I don't recall what type of cancer it was). Saskatchewan doctors diagnosed the problem, then basically told him, "You're screwed. There's nothing we can do." :yikes: Thanks for nothing.

He made a coupla phone calls stateside, flew down to one of their cancer clinics a couple weeks later, received treatment, wrote them out a cheque, flew home.

He's been cancer free ever since.

These are both stellar examples of why private enterprise should be able to get into health care, no holds barred.


----------



## Macfury

In Ontario, the former Premier, Dalton McGinty, made it impossible for a mobile MRI service to operate in the province. The law made it illegal for any private company to own an MRI machine--except for a veterinarian.

I support two-tier medicine. You want to wait for slow service, get in the "free" line. Want to pay for fast service, get it now.



FeXL said:


> There's a private MRI unit at the U of Lethbridge with a very short wait time, if you want to pay out of pocket. It's always busy. At the local hospital, the lineup is months long.
> 
> In addition, I may have posted about this years ago, can't recall.
> 
> I have a wealthy cousin who lives in Saskatchewan. Found out he had the Big C about 10 years ago (I don't recall what type of cancer it was). Saskatchewan doctors diagnosed the problem, then basically told him, "You're screwed. There's nothing we can do." :yikes: Thanks for nothing.
> 
> He made a coupla phone calls stateside, flew down to one of their cancer clinics a couple weeks later, received treatment, wrote them out a cheque, flew home.
> 
> He's been cancer free ever since.
> 
> These are both stellar examples of why private enterprise should be able to get into health care, no holds barred.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> Is this the fallout from extended pharmaceutical patent protections from the Mulroney era?
> 
> Is there a behind-the-scenes move across both major federal political parties to underfund Canada's health care system to soften up the population's acceptance of privatized health care?
> 
> Is this the result of NAFTA's forced opening of management contracts that let US and other multinationals without a local stake control decision-making for efficiency's sake rather than ensuring sufficient resources to maintain services?


Do you consider these the three most likely reasons?


----------



## Beej

On redefining the word "violence" and other related items...

School president a culprit as truth gets trumped at Laurier
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/wi...nt-a-culprit-as-truth-gets-trumped-at-laurier


> She warns that we must combat language that threatens the humanity of the students. This is a variation on the empirically false claim that speech can deny an identity, that speech is violence. In the wake of a free speech demonstration, many at Laurier argued that the campus was unsafe due to the ideas being discussed. The administration announced its commitment to campus safety.
> 
> This is nonsense. Violence is action. To redefine language as violence is a political ploy intended to give the alleged victims control of speech.


Note how the new definition will help people use "safety" as a reason to control others' words.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> I don't see how the struggles of the people you mention change the needs of a woman to feel safe at a women's shelter. Prejudice does not enter into the equation. It would be like saying that women who expect their shelter to be exclusive to women are prejudiced against men.


Well yes they are prejudice against men but for good reasons, because they have been abused in any manner of way by them. They feel afraid of men in general. 

I don't know how much experience you have with women in shelter's but we have a safe house in our neigbourhood. I have encountered a couple of these women, most notably when they were in trouble of one form of the other, one was was freezing with and infant at a corner waiting for a ride at -30 degrees. I was walking my dog and passed her and continued on my walk which about 20 minutes after I passed her. Then on the way back she was still standing there and I asked her if she was waiting for a ride. She said yes and because I was so close by and she had no cell phone I said to her you can come to my house and make a call from there. She was hesitant but I didn't encourage her in any way other than to say it was so cold for the baby, maybe she could just call her friend from my place out of the wind and cold. She agreed and when she arrived at my place I said come on in out of the cold to make the call and she said she couldn't so because I have a wireless phone inside the house I brought it out to her and she made a call to her friend and with her providing my address she was picked up by her friend in less than 15 minutes. Her friend was lost just with the instructions of come to this corner.

So even though in the end she trusted me enough to come outside of my home to make a call she was still very fearful and prejudiced against me because I was a man 

Also, you completely miss my point. Have you ever spent any significant time with a trans-gender person? If you haven't that indicates prejudice on your part and completely hypothetical thinking which is unfounded by your experience in the posts that you have been making. 

You may say, "I don't need to have met and talked to a terrorist, to know their intentions" or something like that.

You may hearken back to the original post that a woman was uncomfortable sharing a room with a man in transition. 

As I said form the outset in my first response to you that was unfortunate and the organization made an inappropriate decision. But then you went on for pages saying that gender identification was purely in the mind of the individual (which it obviously is one way or the other) and that either you are XX or XY genetically. 

But that again misses the point completely. What exists, is what it is and we should accept that fact and act accordingly as a society. Which we have in this country and many modern countries in the world have responded in the same or similar ways. You may not like the change (I was totally against it at one point) but change is how we grow as individuals and as a society,

I hear and I forget,
I see and and I remember,
But when I being to think, act and *experience*,
Then I understand.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Well yes they are prejudice against men but for good reasons, because they have been abused in any manner of way by them. They feel afraid of men in general.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how much experience you have with women in shelter's but we have a safe house in our neigbourhood. I have encountered a couple of these women, most notably when they were in trouble of one form of the other, one was was freezing with and infant at a corner waiting for a ride at -30 degrees. I was walking my dog and passed her and continued on my walk which about 20 minutes after I passed her. Then on the way back she was still standing there and I asked her if she was waiting for a ride. She said yes and because I was so close by and she had no cell phone I said to her you can come to my house and make a call from there. She was hesitant but I didn't encourage her in any way other than to say it was so cold for the baby, maybe she could just call her friend from my place out of the wind and cold. She agreed and when she arrived at my place I said come on in out of the cold to make the call and she said she couldn't so because I have a wireless phone inside the house I brought it out to her and she made a call to her friend and with her providing my address she was picked up by her friend in less than 15 minutes. Her friend was lost just with the instructions of come to this corner.
> 
> 
> 
> So even though in the end she trusted me enough to come outside of my home to make a call she was still very fearful and prejudiced against me because I was a man
> 
> 
> 
> Also, you completely miss my point. Have you ever spent any significant time with a trans-gender person? If you haven't that indicates prejudice on your part and completely hypothetical thinking which is unfounded by your experience in the posts that you have been making.
> 
> 
> 
> You may say, "I don't need to have met and talked to a terrorist, to know their intentions" or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> You may hearken back to the original post that a woman was uncomfortable sharing a room with a man in transition.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said form the outset in my first response to you that was unfortunate and the organization made an inappropriate decision. But then you went on for pages saying that gender identification was purely in the mind of the individual (which it obviously is one way or the other) and that either you are XX or XY genetically.
> 
> 
> 
> But that again misses the point completely. What exists, is what it is and we should accept that fact and act accordingly as a society. Which we have in this country and many modern countries in the world have responded in the same or similar ways. You may not like the change (I was totally against it at one point) but change is how we grow as individuals and as a society,
> 
> 
> 
> I hear and I forget,
> 
> I see and and I remember,
> 
> But when I being to think, act and *experience*,
> 
> Then I understand.




A mature and thoughtful response. Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Beej said:


> If you want to see a range of discussion on the matter, the Economist recently ran a series:
> https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/transgender-identities-a-series-of-invited-essays
> 
> *While current U.S. psychology standards may seem clear, the policy space is far from clear. The laws and regulations that follow will probably be a suitable mess.*


Hi Beej, I finally got around to reading all the articles that you linked to and I couldn't agree with you more.


----------



## Beej

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Hi Beej, I finally got around to reading all the articles that you linked to and I couldn't agree with you more.


Good to hear (and bad to hear in that the conclusion sucks).


----------



## SINC

Is it both addictive and legal?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/cannabis-addiction-1.4789187


----------



## Macfury

Even doctors who prescribe cannabis have told me they know it can be addictive--they don't want to hide that. If used for pain, it has a better health profile than being addicted to opiates, but it can still be addictive.



SINC said:


> Is it both addictive and legal?
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/cannabis-addiction-1.4789187


----------



## eMacMan

I know people who have been addicted to opiates and others who were addicted to Cannabis. The opiate addicts had a really rough road breaking the addiction, nausea and the shakes for an extended period of time. Always required professional detox. The Cannabis addicts missed/craved it for a while but other than that had no ill effects when they chose to deep six the Cannabis. That's a huge difference.

This does seem like it is push back from Big Pharma. Cannabis has proven itself superior to opioids for painkilling. Big Pharma depends on Opioid addiction for a sizeable portion of its sales and medical Cannabis is a direct threat to that revenue stream.


----------



## FeXL

Accepting the fact that there is much mental illness in society is good. Agreed.

As far as acting accordingly at what point do we, as a society, draw the line? 

Somewhere? Anywhere? Nowhere?



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What exists, is what it is and we should accept that fact and act accordingly as a society.


----------



## FeXL

Canada has no space for Sir John A, but plenty for Jinnah



> On Sunday evening, Quebec MP Maxime Bernier posted a six-tweet thread on ‘extreme multiculturalism’ that has set off a political maelstrom in Canada, a country that seems no longer accustomed to hearing the truth from its political leaders.
> 
> Bernier warned Canadians that the “cult of diversity will divide us into little tribes that have less and less in common, apart from their dependence on government in Ottawa. These tribes become political clienteles to be bought with taxpayers $ and special privileges.”


Related:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

CRA insiders say Canada’s tax system helps rich avoid paying taxes: study



> Canada’s tax system may be skewed towards helping the rich avoid paying taxes, and according to Canada Revenue Agency employees themselves, it may not have the funding it needs to change.


More:



> _Why would it need more funding? Why not change the tax code to eliminate loop-holes?_


Precisely.


----------



## Macfury

As a society we can't recognize everybody's subjective reality. I told you about the workplace where a trans-disabled person was smashing into others with a wheelchair he did not no how to use--or need. Or the trans-blind woman in the US who had a doctor explain to her how she could destroy her corneas with acid. Or the trans-black people who don't merely want to identify with black culture, but want others to recognize an objective untruth--that they are black.

When society decides that someone's subjective reality needs to be treated as objective under penalty of law, we are not growing as a society. I affirm the right of a person to act as a man or a woman, but not the right of a man with a penis to be housed with women in a women's shelter.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> You may hearken back to the original post that a woman was uncomfortable sharing a room with a man in transition.
> 
> As I said form the outset in my first response to you that was unfortunate and the organization made an inappropriate decision. But then you went on for pages saying that gender identification was purely in the mind of the individual (which it obviously is one way or the other) and that either you are XX or XY genetically.
> 
> But that again misses the point completely. What exists, is what it is and we should accept that fact and act accordingly as a society. Which we have in this country and many modern countries in the world have responded in the same or similar ways. You may not like the change (I was totally against it at one point) but change is how we grow as individuals and as a society,


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Lady: "When do we get our $146M that went to illegal immigrants?"



> Trudeau: "Your intolerance has no place here" (x4+)
> Lady: "Do you tolerate Quebecers?"
> Trudeau: "Your racism has no place here" (x2)
> RCMP: "[Arrest her, she made threats!]"


Related:

PM Trudeau's encounter with heckler raises questions



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has finally commented, and he isn’t apologizing or backing down.
> 
> Social media has been abuzz about the video of an interaction between Trudeau and a woman who was heckling him at an Aug. 16 Liberal event in Sabrevois, Que.
> 
> The exchange, in French, between the two was heated, but what happened to the woman afterwards borders on something one might see in a police state rather than a free speech democracy.
> 
> It’s ugly.


h/t SDA, who noted:



> And yet Trudeau _“fears a rise in extreme populism and a polarization in the political discourse”_. Well, you get what you begat.


Nails it.

Related, too:

Justin Trudeau is Wrong, Diversity is not our Strength



> One of Justin Trudeau’s favourite platitudes is “diversity is our strength”. A vapid comment from the substitute drama teacher turned Prime Minister, that should have been just that, a comment. However, the Prime Minister has continued to parrot his favourite talking point, even making speeches that expanded on the idea that “diversity” in itself is what makes Canada great.
> 
> This little statement would be harmless if it weren’t for two major factors:
> 
> First, it is wrong. Dead wrong. *Diversity is not our strength, decency is. Justin Trudeau confuses cause and effect here. A diverse set of people is the result of a decent society that values people by their content of character, not the way they look.*


Emphasis mine.


----------



## FeXL

Long overdue.

Police Raid Anti-Pipeline Site, Destroy Their Camp And Send Them Straight To Jail



> Law enforcement ended a lingering standoff with an anti-pipeline camp site, arresting five protesters and destroying all the makeshift homes that were built.
> 
> Intense opposition has centered around the Trans Mountain pipeline project, an expansion proposal that will ultimately stretch from Alberta to British Columbia’s west coast. Construction workers for Kinder Morgan, North America’s largest infrastructure company, have been subjected to numerous environmental protests as they continue to work on the $7.4 billion-dollar crude oil pipeline.
> 
> A group of environmental protesters have long congregated in a camp near a Kinder Morgan tank farm in Burnaby, British Columbia. For the past several months, Camp Cloud — the name of the protest camp site — had grown in size. Starting with a single trailer in November, Camp Cloud had grown to include numerous vehicles and trailers, a cabin, an outdoor shower, a two-story wooden “house,” and numerous tents.


If you're starting to build structures...


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> Accepting the fact that there is much mental illness in society is good. Agreed.
> 
> As far as acting accordingly at what point do we, as a society, draw the line?
> 
> Somewhere? Anywhere? Nowhere?


You are being provocative by calling trans people sick (mental illness). So do you think that homosexuality either male or female is a mental illness? That way of thinking has been clinically proven time and again to be false. They are simply wired that way from birth.

So it also seems with gender dysphoria. It is not something that you "acquire", you are born with it as a part of your mental makeup. Just like all other innate human traits. It is indeed rare but that does not mean it does not exist without being a form of mental illness.

As for "drawing a line", yes we as society and even individually do that all the time. Sometimes it serves us well and at other times it comes to bite us in the ass. However, society as an all encompassing homogeneity has never existed and will never exist. Thank goodness for that. 

That is the reason why politics exist in the first place. So as far as where the line is regarding trans people, it is currently in flux, that the reason why we all had this conversation. There are laws regarding LGBTQ people to protect them from persecution, but it is a vast and complex issue and is still in its infancy politically speaking.

As I said before I am proud to be a Canadian and proud that our principles (for the majority) include inclusiveness as opposed to exclusiveness (as is the way with so many countries around the world, including the US under Trump).


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> *As a society we can't recognize everybody's subjective reality.* I told you about the workplace where a trans-disabled person was smashing into others with a wheelchair he did not no how to use--or need. Or the trans-blind woman in the US who had a doctor explain to her how she could destroy her corneas with acid. Or the trans-black people who don't merely want to identify with black culture, but want others to recognize an objective untruth--that they are black.
> 
> When society decides that someone's subjective reality needs to be treated as objective under penalty of law, we are not growing as a society. I affirm the right of a person to act as a man or a woman, but not the right of a man with a penis to be housed with women in a women's shelter.


Why not? You seem to expect everyone to recognize yours. 

And nice dodge from the question I asked you about your personal experience with trans people.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

wonderings said:


> I know pretty much nothing about this, but is there a cap because of the government is paying doctors and they "budget" for only so many?





Macfury said:


> My apologies. Your supposition is the correct one--the government reduces the number of education positions, controlling supply and thereby controlling medical costs.


You are both incorrect. The Federal government has no control over the provinces and territories health spending. All that the Feds to is distribute funds and the the rest of the individual members of the Federation decide what to do with those dollars. The provinces and territories can even redirect funds supplied by the Federal Government to other projects in their jurisdiction.

Thus that is why there is no such thing as "universal health care" in Canada. It is a myth pure and simple. The only thing "universal" about the system is that all provinces and territories get a cut of the pie (not equal) of the Federal contributions to the federation members set aside for health care by the feds (there are other exceptions in law and regulations, but it is impossible to go into detail here).


----------



## Macfury

I don't expect anyone to recognize my subjective reality! Society works simply because we are able to recognize enough of each other's objective realities to get along while our own movies play in our heads. Most of the world's friction involves forcing others to recognize our subjective realities, as groups or individuals.

Sure I've met trans people. Someone who was always very nice to my pet at a veterinary clinic. A regular at a park where I walked my dog. A relative in another country. I'm sure I've met others and did not realize it.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Why not? You seem to expect everyone to recognize yours.
> 
> And nice dodge from the question I asked you about your personal experience with trans people.


----------



## Macfury

I should have specified provincial government. I thought that was implied from a previous post, but I may be wrong,



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> You are both incorrect. The Federal government has no control over the provinces and territories health spending. All that the Feds to is distribute funds and the the rest of the individual members of the Federation decide what to do with those dollars. The provinces and territories can even redirect funds supplied by the Federal Government to other projects in their jurisdiction.
> 
> Thus that is why there is no such thing as "universal health care" in Canada. It is a myth pure and simple. The only thing "universal" about the system is that all provinces and territories get a cut of the pie (not equal) of the Federal contributions to the federation members set aside for health care by the feds (there are other exceptions in law and regulations, but it is impossible to go into detail here).


----------



## FeXL

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> You are being provocative by calling trans people sick (mental illness). So do you think that homosexuality either male or female is a mental illness?


I'm calling it what it is. In addition, I don't see a connection between the two. And, quite glaringly I might add, there are an increasing number of gays who do not support TG's. Curious, no?



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So it also seems with gender dysphoria.


"Seems". Lot of wiggle room in that 5 letter word...



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> It is not something that you "acquire", you are born with it as a part of your mental makeup. Just like all other innate human traits. It is indeed rare but that does not mean it does not exist without being a form of mental illness.


Interesting. So, you're telling me that a person is born physically as either male or female, XX or XY, (with _extremely_ rare exceptions acknowledged) and is mentally one of over, what is it now, 100 genders? Is that the thrust?



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> However, society as an all encompassing homogeneity has never existed and will never exist.


I'm not looking for homogeneity. I'm looking for metal illness to be properly diagnosed & then treated.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> That is the reason why politics exist in the first place.


Please...



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> So as far as where the line is regarding trans people, it is currently in flux...


Yes. Yes, it is.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> There are laws regarding LGBTQ people to protect them from persecution, but it is a vast and complex issue and is still in its infancy politically speaking.


I could care less about the politics. The second politicians get their hands on _anything_, it all goes to $h!t.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> (as is the way with so many countries around the world, including the US under Trump).


Blah, blah, blah...

Awright, a few questions.

1. People who think they are animals, species dysphoria. Cats, dogs, tigers, foxes, etc. Not just act the part, but get extensive body modifications to mimic the animal of their choice. Mentally ill or not?

2. People who identify as "otherkins", body dysphoria. Plants, scarecrows, werewolves, etc. Mentally ill or not?

3. People who think they are a Ken Doll. >50 surgeries to look like Ken. Mentally ill or not?


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> *I don't expect anyone to recognize my subjective reality!* Society works simply because we are able to recognize enough of each other's objective realities to get along while our own movies play in our heads. Most of the world's friction involves forcing others to recognize our subjective realities, as groups or individuals.
> 
> Sure I've met trans people. Someone who was always very nice to my pet at a veterinary clinic. A regular at a park where I walked my dog. A relative in another country. I'm sure I've met others and did not realize it.


Ok good, then we can continue to talk on that mutual understanding.



> Society works simply because we are able to recognize enough of each other's objective realities


Well maybe in a homogeneous society that is what works, but I don't know of any homogeneous society. I don't think one has ever existed. You are welcome to prove me wrong.

The way I see it is that their is no objective reality unless you are an omniscient being, all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing. To my knowledge there has never been such an entity on earth that could be truthfully called omniscient (although throughout history many humans have claimed be to "gods" and all knowing).

So IMO you are incorrect in your assessment that "Society works simply because we are able to recognize enough of each other's objective realities." To my mind it is clearly is not the case especially when you take into consideration differing religions, ethnicity, place of origin, race, etc. (there are probably many others but those are what came to mind) across the world.

But here in Canada what we try to do is accept other's subjective realities (so long as they are in great enough numbers) and make a society that works with some basic notion of Human Rights and Freedom as defined by the Charter.

Society in all countries is what we as humans make it, which is in continual flux among democratic and non-democratic nations. So you have every right to say that XX and XY is all that matters and you can vote for people who feel the same way as you do, or even run for office based on that belief.

Additionally, that is why we have a judicial system that allows individuals to be able to file a complaint/case against existing laws. What a great country we live in to be able to do that!!

But as it exists now your views go against existing law regarding LGBTQ people and their rights.


----------



## Dr.G.

"As I said before I am proud to be a Canadian and proud that our principles (for the majority) include inclusiveness as opposed to exclusiveness (as is the way with so many countries around the world, including the US under Trump). " :clap: :clap: :clap: Me too. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Well maybe in a homogeneous society that is what works, but I don't know of any homogeneous society. I don't think one has ever existed. You are welcome to prove me wrong.
> 
> The way I see it is that their is no objective reality unless you are an omniscient being, all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing. To my knowledge there has never been such an entity on earth that could be truthfully called omniscient (although throughout history many humans have claimed be to "gods" and all knowing).
> 
> So IMO you are in correct in your assessment that "Society works simply because we are able to recognize enough of each other's objective realities." To my mind it is clearly is not the case especially when you take into consideration differing religions, ethnicity, place of origin, race, etc. (there are probably many others but those are what came to mind) across the world.


This is my point. We can't recognize all subjective realities. We can exist as a society because we can agree on some objective things most of the time. *Forcing* our internal realities--religion, philosophy, politics, or perception of self--on others is the source of most conflict.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> I'm calling it what it is. In addition, I don't see a connection between the two. And, quite glaringly I might add, there are an increasing number of gays who do not support TG's. Curious, no?
> 
> 
> 
> "Seems". Lot of wiggle room in that 5 letter word...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. So, you're telling me that a person is born physically as either male or female, XX or XY, (with _extremely_ rare exceptions acknowledged) and is mentally one of over, what is it now, 100 genders? Is that the thrust?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not looking for homogeneity. I'm looking for metal illness to be properly diagnosed & then treated.
> 
> 
> 
> Please...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Yes, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> I could care less about the politics. The second politicians get their hands on _anything_, it all goes to $h!t.
> 
> 
> 
> Blah, blah, blah...
> 
> Awright, a few questions.
> 
> 1. People who think they are animals, species dysphoria. Cats, dogs, tigers, foxes, etc. Not just act the part, but get extensive body modifications to mimic the animal of their choice. Mentally ill or not?
> 
> 2. People who identify as "otherkins", body dysphoria. Plants, scarecrows, werewolves, etc. Mentally ill or not?
> 
> 3. People who think they are a Ken Doll. >50 surgeries to look like Ken. Mentally ill or not?




To answer your 3 questions all together my reply is this:

Yes obviously they have a mental difference (perhaps illness) from the majority of humans. Whether or not they are born like this or it is in fact a disease of the mind, I cannot find any information online.

But see this is where we will always disagree. What constitutes the difference between a mental difference and mental illness. Here are a few examples of the difference.

A downs syndrome person does not suffer from a mental illness (as was believed for a very long time) they are born with a mental difference, a difference that is genetically encoded.

Gay persons do not suffer from a mental illness (as was believed for a very long time) they are born with a mental difference, a difference that is genetically encoded.

Savant's do not suffer from a mental illness (as was believed for a very long time) they are born with a mental difference, a difference that is genetically encoded.

These are but a few examples that stand out most noticeably. All of which were considered at one point in time to be an illness until further scientific research was done to show that these people are not mentally ill, they are just mentally different and it is normal and natural for them to be be the way they are and there is no treatment or medicine that can change the way they are to become "normal" to the rest of society.

So here we have come to an impasse, you will never convince me of your subjective point of view and I will never convince you of my subjective point of view which means we will just have to a agree to disagree.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> This is my point. We can't recognize all subjective realities. We can exist as a society because we can agree on some objective things most of the time. *Forcing* our internal realities--religion, philosophy, politics, or perception of self--on others is the source of most conflict.


While I disagree with your use of the word "objective", because IMO there in nothing that is objective when it comes to human society, I agree with the rest of what you said.


----------



## SINC

Good!

*Supreme Court dismisses Burnaby’s case against Trans Mountain pipeline*

https://calgaryherald.com/business/...burnabys-case-against-trans-mountain-pipeline


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Good!
> 
> 
> 
> *Supreme Court dismisses Burnaby’s case against Trans Mountain pipeline*
> 
> 
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/business/...burnabys-case-against-trans-mountain-pipeline



Don, there’s not much that we agree on, but this is one of them. Good for Rachel! Good for Alberta! Good for Canada!


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Don, there’s not much that we agree on, but this is one of them. Good for Rachel! Good for Alberta! Good for Canada!


Right you are Frank, with one exception. 

Rachel won't be in power when the pipeline is complete. She and her govenment will be gone in just nine months now.


----------



## FeXL

Gag me with a two by four...

Exactly what part has Rachel played in this TGF? 

Be precise.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Good for Rachel!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

After “Pretty Boy” Trudeau Takes Cheap Shot At Trump, Canada Suffers Consequences



> Trudeau unofficially welcomed strangers into Canada. What do ya know? They actually took him at his word. We all know we’re not supposed to take liberals seriously. They just shoot off their mouths for the cameras. We all smile and applaud. Then they go back to screwing up the government.
> 
> Since Trudeau “opened the floodgates,” Quebec has been overwhelmed by the number of “irregular” immigrants (code for illegals). Their leaders are pushing back on the country’s open-door policy. Quebec’s government is demanding some strict changes to the laws.


More:



> Notice how Quebec is worried that too much immigration will “dilute” their cultural identity. I’m sure the liberal bloggers all agree.
> 
> ...
> 
> Quebec’s government wants to slash legal immigration by 20%. *They are demanding new immigrants learn French.*


M'bold.

Raaaaaacis'!!!

Related:

Canada struggling with illegal border 'crisis' of its own ahead of crucial elections



> As migrants continue to spill over the porous southern border, many politicians are calling the situation a “crisis” and are urging the government to do more. Some have even proposed putting up a fence along one of the longest borders in the world.
> 
> The border in question, however, is not America’s border with Mexico, but Canada’s with the United States. *Some estimate that as many as 400 a day are crossing the 5,525 mile border between Canada and the U.S. through non-official ports of entry and with provincial elections looming, the issue is causing political ramifications.*


M'bold.

Not only provincial elections, but a Federal one, as well. Neither of which the Liberals can afford to lose. It's a perfect storm.  

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Too bad they don't teach economics in drama or snowboard school...

Canada deliberately sidelined from latest NAFTA talks, Trump suggests



> U.S. President Donald Trump is suggesting Canada has deliberately been left on NAFTA’s sidelines as one-on-one talks heat up between Washington and Mexico.
> 
> For four straight weeks, U.S. trade czar Robert Lighthizer and Mexican Economy Minister Ildefonso Guajardo have held bilateral negotiations on the North American Free Trade Agreement, while Canada has been absent from the bargaining table.
> 
> *Canadian officials have insisted they’re unfazed by being left out of the discussions* because it’s allowing the U.S. and Mexico to sort out tough bilateral issues, such as their differences on autos. They’ve stressed that there have been a lot of one-on-one talks during NAFTA’s renegotiation process.


Bold mine.

Of course they're unfazed! It's because they're a bunch of brain dead idiots who don't even know they're playing ninth fiddle in the outhouse!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Exactly what part has Rachel played in this TGF?


From where I sit, nothing. Just a lot of sideline jabbering while events unfold despite her anti-oil rhetoric.


----------



## FeXL

Or diplomacy...

Diplomacy 101: Three Things Justin Trudeau Needs to Learn



> Politics and social media have at least one thing in common: A single action has the potential to cause an overreaction.
> 
> *On August 2, 2018, Christia Freeland, Canada’s Foreign Affairs Minister, sent out a tweet that called for Saudi Arabia to release Samar Badawi, a Saudi female rights activist, and Raif Badawi, a blogger. This was followed up with a similar tweet by the Foreign Affairs Department.*
> 
> In response, Saudi Arabia, led by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salma, imposed retaliatory measures against Canada. These include suspending diplomatic relations, cancelling funding for 16,000 students, and banning imports of Canadian wheat.
> 
> The Liberal government’s diplomatic breakdown with Saudi Arabia shows that no lessons were learned from Justin Trudeau’s falling out with Donald Trump.


Yeah, bold mine.

Ah, yes. Our little Purple Perogy...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> From where I sit, nothing. Just a lot of sideline jabbering while events unfold despite her anti-oil rhetoric.


I'm right there beside ya.


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...nnouncement-ahead-of-conservative-convention/

This would be a truly interesting development in Canadian politics if true. We shall see.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...nnouncement-ahead-of-conservative-convention/
> 
> This would be a truly interesting development in Canadian politics if true. We shall see.


Scheer & the current crop of so-called _Conservatives_ are milksop & nothing more than Liberal-Lite.

If Bernier is set out to start a _real_ conservative party, he will have my attention.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Puts a whole new meaning to Turdeau... :lmao::lmao::lmao:

No apology or regrets for not putting polish to a perceived turd



> Unlike most Canadians, stereotyped to the point of mockery for immediately apologizing for just about anything, Melissa Robichaud has no regrets over calling our prime minister a “piece of s—.”
> 
> Few should blame her.


I certainly don't.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, about that whole integration thing...

Canada: Govt encourages hotels to impose “Sharia” swim times for refugee girls



> *Watch as I tell you about how Sharia law came to the hotels*, under the advice of the refugee wranglers in the federal government.
> 
> Special Sharia swim times were set up, before and after regular pool hours, because refugee parents were not permitting their little girls to use the hotel pools as freely as the little boys.


Links' bold.

Ah knows. You can't expect Muslims to be merely thrown into that whole integration pool. Better they get their feet wet for 70 or 80 years first.

Pun intended...


----------



## FeXL

Bernier's outta there.

Coulda Had Max



> Update: Bernier is leaving the Conservative Party.
> 
> _Bernier says CPC has been siding with Liberals on supply management and supports retaliatory tariffs on U.S. Says Canada has "no chance" of winning trade war with the U.S. #cdnpoli
> 
> — Sean Previl (@SeanPrevil) August 23, 2018_​


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bernier-statement-conserative-1.4795894

It's official.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bernier-statement-conserative-1.4795894
> 
> 
> 
> It's official.



Yay! We need more parties in the right! Canadians want choice!


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yay! We need more parties in the right! Canadians want choice!


So true. Can't let the NDP have all the fun. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Dr.G. said:


> "As I said before I am proud to be a Canadian and proud that our principles (for the majority) include inclusiveness as opposed to exclusiveness (as is the way with so many countries around the world, including the US under Trump). " :clap: :clap: :clap: Me too. Paix, mon ami.


Right on brother, right on... cue... Oh Canada.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Right on brother, right on... cue... Oh Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Very well done. Thanks for this clip. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

Considering we currently do not have a Federal party on the right, if Bernier creates one, that would make precisely...one!

And, yes, Canadians do need a party on the right. Not some limp as a plate of wet noodles, spineless, centrist party who masquerades as a party of the right but far more closely resembles Liberal-Lite.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yay! We need more parties in the right! Canadians want choice!


----------



## Macfury

Bernier was my choice for Conservative leader. The Cons could take over the centre and the Liberals and NDP could merge into one dysfunctional blob.



FeXL said:


> Considering we currently do not have a Federal party on the right, if Bernier creates one, that would make precisely...one!
> 
> And, yes, Canadians do need a party on the right. Not some limp as a plate of wet noodles, spineless, centrist party who masquerades as a party of the right but far more closely resembles Liberal-Lite.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Bernier was my choice for Conservative leader. The Cons could take over the centre and the Liberals and NDP could merge into one dysfunctional blob.


The Canadian Libertarian party approached Bernier to be their leader, but he turned them down.


----------



## 18m2

My first choice was Erin O'Toole and my second was Kellie Leitch.

Goes to show you how good I am at picken 'em. :yikes:

I don't think Sheer has what it takes to beat Trudeau.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> The Canadian Libertarian party approached Bernier to be their leader, but he turned them down.


Good. They don't deserve him.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Good. They don't deserve him.


Well, they will never know. Such is Life.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Considering we currently do not have a Federal party on the right, if Bernier creates one, that would make precisely...one!
> 
> 
> 
> And, yes, Canadians do need a party on the right. Not some limp as a plate of wet noodles, spineless, centrist party who masquerades as a party of the right but far more closely resembles Liberal-Lite.




Not just one party—several parties on the right! The more the merrier! Canadians want choice!


----------



## FeXL

I'm not talking about the freaks & the weirdos who can't even muster enough support for a single MP.

Like the formal Commies (as opposed to the informal ones, the Liberals & NDP) on the left...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Not just one party—several parties on the right!


----------



## Macfury

Alberta will always have the rump of the provincial NDP party to kick around!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Not just one party—several parties on the right! The more the merrier! Canadians want choice!


----------



## Beej

Things get complicated....

Transgender woman denied a Brazilian wax by spa files human rights complaint
https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...ts-complaint-after-being-denied-brazilian-wax



> Reached by phone on Wednesday, the woman, who describes herself as a digital entrepreneur, said the complaint is one of 15 she’s filed against salons from Vancouver to Abbotsford. Over March and April, she said, she contacted 18 salons and only three agreed to take her on as a client.





> In May, it was reported that a transgender woman was seeking $50,000 after being denied service at Mad Wax, a body hair removal business in Windsor, Ont. Jason Carruthers, Mad Wax’s president, told the Windsor Star at the time that the only employee working that day was a Muslim woman who refrains from physical contact with men outside family. And the only staff member who did male waxing was on sick leave.


----------



## FeXL

Huh. Wonder which RCMP officer personally escorted him & carried his bag across the border...

Ex-Uber driver hiding in Quebec faces extradition to California on rape charge



> U.S. authorities are seeking to extradite a former Uber driver from San Francisco who was being investigated on rape charges before vanishing and then emerging in Montreal earlier this summer.
> 
> Court documents filed last month in Montreal say Mohamed Ben Azaza is wanted in California after failing to show up for a meeting in early March with detectives investigating the case.


----------



## FeXL

Fffffffff...fff... 'Ear!

Getting high without the downer of taxation



> One of Canada’s space cowboys, Transport Minister Marc Garneau, found himself in yet another world Wednesday, landing in the relatively lawless turf known as Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory.
> 
> For provincial police and government tax collectors, Tyendinaga is a no-go zone, with sensitivities over past sins committed on First Nations leading to kid-glove treatment in order to avoid another confrontational crisis such as the disasters already experienced at Oka, Ipperwash and Caledonia.


More:



> The venue, in fact, was the airplane hangar at the First Nations Technical Institute, not far off the well-beaten track that leads to scores of smoke shacks and pot dispensaries flouting virtually every law known to the “peoplekind” of Canada and Ontario when it comes to tobacco and cannabis.


Further:



> _t has 32 smoke shacks selling cheap tax-free Native-manufactured cigarettes to any and all comers, even though it is against the law to sell to non-status persons. A carton of 200 nicely-packaged Native-produced cigarettes sells for approximately $35, as compared to the heavily-taxed cigarettes sold legally in off-reserve convenience stores for upwards of $120.
> 
> A plastic baggie of 200 “loosies” can go for as little as $10._


_

But it's OK. They're First Immigrants..._


----------



## FeXL

Cautious conservatism in Canada won’t outshine Trudeau



> Andrew Scheer, the head of Canada’s Conservative Party, is a nice man, a bright man, and by any objective standard, a man capable of running the country.
> 
> However, Scheer has 14 months to make the case that he would not merely make a decent prime minister, but a better one than Justin Trudeau. Only by doing so can he convince voters to make the relatively unprecedented move of unseating an incumbent Canadian majority government after a single term.


Yeah, good luck with that.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Again, this will be blamed by the uninformed on the Saudi's, and not on the deserving Dope & his underling's complete absence of diplomacy.

Nova Scotia health official warns of surgical delays because of Saudi residents’ departure



> The pending departure of almost 60 Saudi Arabian medical residents because of a diplomatic spat will cause surgical delays over the coming months, says an official with the Nova Scotia Health Authority.
> 
> Dr. Mark Taylor, executive medical director for the central zone, said “minor delays” of up to a few weeks will likely occur for scheduled surgeries as health officials look to fill gaps created by the departures.


More:



> About 1,000 Saudi residents and fellows in Canada were called back to the kingdom when it abruptly suspended diplomatic relations over a federal government tweet that criticized the Saudis for the arrest of female social activists.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Wrong skin colour, wrong religion, wrong politics...

Why Didn’t She Just Cross Illegally?



> On Wednesday I interviewed Jacquie Scott on the radio. She is the Scottish mother of a Canadian born boy. She lost her work visa when she took time off work to look after her high needs son.
> 
> *Now that the son is doing better and she wants to work, Trudeau’s Liberals are refusing a work permit.* You’ll want to listen to this story but a warning, it might make you angry. You’ll also wonder why [they] won’t just walk across the border.


----------



## FeXL

Coulda Had Max

For the comments more than anything.



> The Fact is, that in 15 months, one barely heard the Supposed “OPPOSITION” Leader doing what he should have been doing….Verbally Annihilatiing Trudeau. Its not like Justine didnt lay out a veritable buffet of Socialist Stupididty and utter BS in from of him..?? and through all that ….?? Anemic replys – Gutless rhetoric and no brains whatsoever in regards to dealing with Maxime.





> Bahahaha. The PC party NEVER, not ONCE, agreed to stand aside for Reform. Right until the bitter end (under good old Joe Who?) they insisted that they were the national party for conservatives and that those upstart Reformers would never succeed. Joe had to be pushed aside for the party to finally die the death it had long since earned.
> 
> This may or may not be the start of another such schism. Sadly I tend to doubt it. *I don’t think the west has it in them any more to take another kick at a Reform-like can. And if they did, they should put their energy into secession instead.* Canada cannot be meaningfully reformed.


M'bold.

Prescient.



> Scheer will be heartbroken like a teenage girl when his “friends” in the media, who he’s so desperately trying to please, turn on him during the election. He’ll be called every name in the book, just like Harper and every other Conservative – Nazi, alt right, racist, xenophobe, sexist, corporate lackey, heartless, unCanadian, white supremacist….with a hidden agenda, of course. Someone should caution him to look out for the bucket of pigs blood overhead when he’s gets his wish and is elected the media party’s prom queen.





> If you want to win an election, you have to establish some distance between yourself and the other party. Scheer has pretty much done the exact opposite. His conservative supporters will use Max as the reason why Scheer can’t get traction in the polls, but the die was cast long before the present troubles with Max.





> I see Scheer as barely a better alternative to Justin. . No if this is the best Canada can do then it’s done. Better to start something new.





> Canada cannot be meaningfully reformed. This country is what it is and what it will always be, a plaything for the Laurentian elite to run for their benefit above all, and we mere serfs be damned. Doubly so the serfs in western Canada, who are to be denied the power & prosperity that are their birthright, as they are always to be placed firmly behind the interests of Quebec and Ontario in this country, forevermore.


Every one of these nails it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Who voted in this bozo? 



> Every Ontario ministry now banned from talking about climate change
> 
> More and more evidence is mounting this week to suggest that Ontario Premier Doug Ford's office has banned government agencies from talking about climate change online.
> 
> Yesterday, we published an email in which a social media coordinator for Ontario Parks told staff that they were "not allowed to mention climate change in social media content," as per the Premier's Office.
> 
> Several employees of the agency, which works to protect natural resources in parks and protected areas across the province, have since reached out to confirm the existence of this email.
> 
> At least two of these staffers, both of whom will remain anonymous to protect their employment, sent along another, even more damning missive from the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry...


 https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/08/doug-ford-climate-change/


----------



## Macfury

I voted Ford in and I'm grateful that he's there!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Who voted in this bozo?


----------



## FeXL

So, Freddie, question: Why is muzzling "climate change" discussions suddenly such an issue for you when this is precisely what the compassionate, intellectual, leftist, warmists have been doing to sceptics for decades?

Jes' askin'...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Who voted in this bozo?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I voted Ford in and I'm grateful that he's there!



Why am I not surprised?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> So, Freddie, question: Why is muzzling "climate change" discussions suddenly such an issue for you when this is precisely what the compassionate, intellectual, leftist, warmists have been doing to sceptics for decades?
> 
> 
> 
> Jes' askin'...



I don’t agree with your statement at all. There’s nothing wrong with discussion even on a hotly contested issue. Since when have skeptics been muzzled in this country?


----------



## FeXL

You can disagree all you like. Sceptics have been muzzled on the topic the world over and since day 1.

"The science is settled!!!", among others.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I don’t agree with your statement at all. There’s nothing wrong with discussion even on a hotly contested issue. Since when have skeptics been muzzled in this country?


----------



## Macfury

Says the guy who proudly voted for Rachel Notley!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why am I not surprised?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Says the guy who proudly voted for Rachel Notley!




And I’d vote for her again in a heartbeat. Kenney is a fool.


----------



## Macfury

Of course you would! It will be a whole different experience in the next provincial election as she goes down to defeat.



Freddie_Biff said:


> And I’d vote for her again in a heartbeat. Kenney is a fool.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Of course you would! It will be a whole different experience in the next provincial election as she goes down to defeat.



Not ready to go from Mr. Fool to Premier Fool yet, but this is Alberta, so it may be inevitable.


----------



## Macfury

I think Mrs. Fool's time as your NDP Premier are over. Time for Mr. Fool to clean house.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Not ready to go from Mr. Fool to Premier Fool yet, but this is Alberta, so it may be inevitable.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I think Mrs. Fool's time as your NDP Premier are over. Time for Mr. Fool to clean house.




Does he do windows?


----------



## FeXL

He drains swamps. And that cesspool down the road from you is gong to need a drum or two of industrial strength Drano just to get rid of the oil slick...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Does he do windows?


----------



## FeXL

He may well be. But he's not a Prog fool...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Kenney is a fool.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> He drains swamps. And that cesspool down the road from you is gong to need a drum or two of industrial strength Drano just to get rid of the oil slick...




If he drains swamps as well as Trump does i.e. create far more corruption than there was to begin with, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.


----------



## Macfury

Toilets too!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Does he do windows?


----------



## FeXL

Riiiight. I keep forgetting.

You're one of these poor, deluded, denying, Prog individuals who thinks that Trump is more corrupt than Barry was or Bill's Wife would have been. You also have no issues with the Clinton News Network, believe in Globull Warming & think Red Rachel & The Dope are doing a standup job. I'll leave it at that...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> If he drains swamps as well as Trump does i.e. create far more corruption than there was to begin with, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Riiiight. I keep forgetting.
> 
> 
> 
> You're one of these poor, deluded, denying, Prog individuals who thinks that Trump is more corrupt than Barry was or Bill's Wife would have been. You also have no issues with the Clinton News Network, believe in Globull Warming & think Red Rachel & The Dope are doing a standup job. I'll leave it at that...
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:




Better than Breitbart and Fox and day of the week.


----------



## Macfury

If it weren't for the links to Fox and Breitbart I see here from the local progs, I wouldn't see them at all! Since you stopped linking RebelMedia I haven't been there once.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> If it weren't for the links to Fox and Breitbart I see here from the local progs, I wouldn't see them at all! Since you stopped linking RebelMedia I haven't been there once.




Your buddy FeXL used to link to Rebel Media all the time.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> Cautious conservatism in Canada won’t outshine Trudeau
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, good luck with that.


Bernier, if he forms a party, will fall very short of the CPC in getting seats in the House. I greatly doubt that he could get enough candidates to be truly national in scope. Not to mention they would have zero experience of how Parliament works.

Yes he may get elected as the Leader of his newly formed Party, but he will most likely be the only member of his Party to get elected like Elizabeth May and the Greens. But at least the Greens have several elections under their belt now and know how to run a national campaign. Bernier has none of that experience but he does have experience with leaving Confidential files at his ex-girlfriend's place, who just so happened to have connections with the Hell's Angel, and lost his position in Cabinet because of his stupidity.

At any rate if it comes to pass that he forms a Party in time to run for election in just over a year. It will mean history does repeat, just like the Reform Party and the PC party split the conservative vote allowing for allowing for 10 years of Liberal rule under Chretien.

So if you want another (at least) 4 years, probably 8 or more of Trudeau go ahead and support Bernier if he forms a party.

What you and the ultra-right people here seem to think is that Canadians in the majority want an ultra-right or "populist" (ala Trump and Ford) government. I can tell you with quite some certainty, they don't. Sure there are pockets of the country who do want that but they are in minority.

For example one of the primary reasons that Ford won in Ontario was backlash against the Liberals and Wynn. Yet Federally (in 2015) they voted overwhelmingly for the Liberals largely because it was a backlash against Harper.

Canadians by far and large are centrists not extremists. Benier is a right of centre extremist in Canadian politics just as Elizabeth May is on the left. So to think an extremist like Bernier could ever form a government and become PM is just a bit of wishful thinking on the part of his supporters. IMO. But time will tell.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

FeXL said:


> Too bad they don't teach economics in drama or snowboard school...
> 
> Canada deliberately sidelined from latest NAFTA talks, Trump suggests
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> Of course they're unfazed! It's because they're a bunch of brain dead idiots who don't even know they're playing ninth fiddle in the outhouse!


It makes perfect sense that:



> Canadian officials have insisted they’re unfazed by being left out of the discussions because it’s allowing the U.S. and Mexico to sort out tough bilateral issues, such as their differences on autos. They’ve stressed that there have been a lot of one-on-one talks during NAFTA’s renegotiation process.


Mexico and the US have bigger problems to sort out (like a wall and who is going to pay for it). Canada does not need to be involved in that conversation. Then there is the many drug cartels shipping their product into the US. Then there is the issue of illegal Mexican's working in the US for dirt wages that rich American's don't have to pay any taxes for thus avoiding the scrutiny of the IRA, thereby "stealing" American jobs. What a crock!  There is a lot of chite that they have to work out between themselves that Canada does not need to be there for the negotiations.



> “Their tariffs are too high, their barriers are too strong, so we’re not even talking to them right now. But we’ll see how that works out. *It will only work out to our favour*.”


Quite frankly that is joke based on the new tariffs, practically around the world, on the foreign imports that Trump has imposed.

Just to add clearly they have no interest in a mutually beneficial agreement based on this statement:

*"It will only work out to our favour*.”


----------



## Macfury

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> At any rate if it comes to pass that he forms a Party in time to run for election in just over a year. It will mean history does repeat, just like the Reform Party and the PC party split the conservative vote allowing for allowing for 10 years of Liberal rule under Chretien.


I wasn't terribly uncomfortable with Chretien as PM in general. He was far more fiscally responsible than Joe Clark, for example.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What you and the ultra-right people here seem to think is that Canadians in the majority want an ultra-right or "populist" (ala Trump and Ford) government. I can tell you with quite some certainty, they don't. Sure there are pockets of the country who do want that but they are in minority.


Best I would hope for is a more libertarian party holding the balance of power for the CPC.

"Populist"seems to mean whatever candidate does not represent the will of the establishment. Left-wingers (Bernie Sanders) are also branded as populists.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> I wasn't terribly uncomfortable with Chretien as PM in general. He was far more fiscally responsible than Joe Clark, for example.
> 
> Best I would hope for is a more libertarian party holding the balance of power for the CPC.
> 
> "Populist"seems to mean whatever candidate does not represent the will of the establishment. Left-wingers (Bernie Sanders) are also branded as populists.


The reason why the Chretien government was more fiscally responsible was because of Paul Martin. I worked on the Hill during that period and he was continually courted to switch camps. Martin was definitely a fiscal conservative. He may have been a decent PM except for the scandal that Chretien created and ran like a (excuse my language) pussy before the Gomery Commission was finished and a final report was made.

The scumbag Chretien dumped it in Martin's lap to deal with. At that time among Libs there was a Chretien camp and a growing Martin camp, so Chretien realizing that within his own Party the Martin camp was on the rise and he would be ousted as Leader he said audios, nice knowing yah, I will leave ya'all to deal with the mess that I created.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Also just to add, Chretien was a prodigy of PET so he learned from the best at making underhanded and backroom deals.

IMO Pet was the worst PM we ever had. He sold out 3/4 of the county due to his idealism that has cost the country billions upon billions of dollars that keeps on going to this day. And after he died it has only become worse, to the point that you cannot get a job in the Federal Government unless you are fluently bilingual, written, spoken and reading, even for for jobs that don't require it.

Also let us not forget that PET imposed military law at his discretion, where it clearly was not necessary. I could go on and one about the failings and indiscretions of PET.

But PET light seems to be going down a similar path, he loves the spot light good or bad, he "swones" the media so they do not have any really tough questions for him. He loves every opportunity to get his face in front of a camera... because he is just so "dreamy". 

JT does differ from his father in that he is not as smart and cunning as PET and he relies only upon superficialities rather than substance.

Even though PET was a smart man, he would have been a better diplomat than an PM. I think his primary interests were in international politics and he found in his arrogance Canadian politics to be parocial and beneath his intellect.

JT is exactly the opposite, all he wants is to be a "pop" star where intellect is not required.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed that Paul Martin was the fiscal strength behind Chretien. Yet all of that seemed to dissipate the moment he took office. Go figure. And yes, PET was the worst PM in my lifetime, with JT running second--only because he doesn't have the intelligence to be more ambitious in his malfeasance.


----------



## Macfury

In the wake of a bilateral trade deal with Mexico and the U.S., we have non-player Canada continuing to embarrass itself:



> "Once the bilateral issues get resolved, Canada will be joining the talks to work on both bilateral issues and our trilateral issues," Chrystia Freeland, Canada's foreign minister, said on Friday. "And will be happy to do that, once the bilateral US-Mexico issues have been resolved."
> *The White House said on Monday: "We have no update at this time."*


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/27/mexican-official-says-nafta-talks-with-us-have-concluded.html


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> In the wake of a bilateral trade deal with Mexico and the U.S., we have non-player Canada continuing to embarrass itself:
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/27/mexican-official-says-nafta-talks-with-us-have-concluded.html


I disagree. The US and Mexico had a multitude of issues to deal with just between the two of them. Canada was not necessary to be at the table and remember it was Trump that disallowed Canada from being at the bargaining table. Sure Freeland could have complained more but it would have made no difference, Trump gets what Trump wants. There is no embarrassment here, the US shut us out and it wouldn't matter who was in power in Canada he would have done the same.

He only sees winners and losers and the US always has to be the winner. It amazes me at times how few people know of his past, or they do and they choose to ignore it. He is a certifiable megalomaniac, who doesn't care one bit who he has to screw over to get what he wants. 

People who have Netflix need to watch this documentary: Trump an American Dream. I don't know if this URL will work but here it is: https://www.netflix.com/title/80206395

One of the most disturbing things is that after the Taj Mahal Casino and Hotel was built he declared bankruptcy leaving 1000 workers who built the place without pay and ruined their families, and he simply walks away not caring.

That shows the true character of the man.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> Agreed that Paul Martin was the fiscal strength behind Chretien. *Yet all of that seemed to dissipate the moment he took office. *Go figure. And yes, PET was the worst PM in my lifetime, with JT running second--only because he doesn't have the intelligence to be more ambitious in his malfeasance.


Yes it did because he had to deal with the mess that Chretien left behind. He was distracted by all the media questions and whether or not he had anything to do with the scandal, which he probably did in a support manner, which he did only to his (political prudent) devotion to his Leader.

But once the chite truly hit the fan when he was PM he was destined to failure. The public had lost it's trust in the Liberal brand and they were ready for a change, no matter how small or large.

Thus with a "united" Conservative Party they were finally able to take advantage of the Libs weaknesses and win a minority government.


----------



## Macfury

I meant primarily that he seemed to lose his fiscal prudence once he became PM.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Yes it did because he had to deal with the mess that Chretien left behind. He was distracted by all the media questions and whether or not he had anything to do with the scandal, which he probably did in a support manner, which he did only to his (political prudent) devotion to his Leader.
> 
> But once the chite truly hit the fan when he was PM he was destined to failure. The public had lost it's trust in the Liberal brand and they were ready for a change, no matter how small or large.
> 
> Thus with a "united" Conservative Party they were finally able to take advantage of the Libs weaknesses and win a minority government.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I disagree. The US and Mexico had a multitude of issues to deal with just between the two of them. Canada was not necessary to be at the table and remember it was Trump that disallowed Canada from being at the bargaining table. Sure Freeland could have complained more but it would have made no difference, Trump gets what Trump wants. There is no embarrassment here, the US shut us out and it wouldn't matter who was in power in Canada he would have done the same.
> 
> 
> 
> He only sees winners and losers and the US always has to be the winner. It amazes me at times how few people know of his past, or they do and they choose to ignore it. He is a certifiable megalomaniac, who doesn't care one bit who he has to screw over to get what he wants.
> 
> 
> 
> People who have Netflix need to watch this documentary: Trump an American Dream. I don't know if this URL will work but here it is: https://www.netflix.com/title/80206395
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most disturbing things is that after the Taj Mahal Casino and Hotel was built he declared bankruptcy leaving 1000 workers who built the place without pay and ruined their families, and he simply walks away not caring.
> 
> 
> 
> That shows the true character of the man.



Yup. He’s a terrible negotiator, unless negotiation in his mind means he wins and takes all. Everyone else can lose and he honestly doesn’t give a ****e.


----------



## Macfury

Sounds like a good deal for the US _and_ Mexico!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Sounds like a good deal for the US _and_ Mexico!




How for Mexico? You mean because they won’t have to pay for his stupid wall?


----------



## Macfury

Paying for the beautiful wall is a separate matter!



Freddie_Biff said:


> How for Mexico? You mean because they won’t have to pay for his stupid wall?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Paying for the beautiful wall is a separate matter!



Beautiful? Clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder if you think that proposed monstrosity is beautiful.


----------



## Macfury

You once told us how attractive Rachel Notley was.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Beautiful? Clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder if you think that proposed monstrosity is beautiful.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You once told us how attractive Rachel Notley was.




Dafuk are you on about now?


----------



## smashedbanana

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> I disagree. The US and Mexico had a multitude of issues to deal with just between the two of them. Canada was not necessary to be at the table and remember it was Trump that disallowed Canada from being at the bargaining table. Sure Freeland could have complained more but it would have made no difference, Trump gets what Trump wants. There is no embarrassment here, the US shut us out and it wouldn't matter who was in power in Canada he would have done the same.
> 
> He only sees winners and losers and the US always has to be the winner. It amazes me at times how few people know of his past, or they do and they choose to ignore it. He is a certifiable megalomaniac, who doesn't care one bit who he has to screw over to get what he wants.
> 
> People who have Netflix need to watch this documentary: Trump an American Dream. I don't know if this URL will work but here it is: https://www.netflix.com/title/80206395
> 
> One of the most disturbing things is that after the Taj Mahal Casino and Hotel was built he declared bankruptcy leaving 1000 workers who built the place without pay and ruined their families, and he simply walks away not caring.
> 
> That shows the true character of the man.



I haven't watched the netflix doc but will. I read the Bloomberg article on the building and bust of the Taj Mahal. The stories were horrible. The guy who had to fire his own brother. The guy who Trump made take 5% on the dollar after promising 10% and saying go ahead and sue me. You will win but it will take 5 years..

Truly a horrible human being.

I would say he doesn't HAVE to win. He just needs you to think he won. That's good enough for him. He lies and lies and lies. Like when he has repeatedly said he never settles lawsuits. Which he has many, many times. But keeps on saying he never does.

Crazy times!


----------



## Dr.G.

BLACK: Bernier’s exit a double blessing for Tories | The Chronicle Herald

An interesting perspective.


----------



## Macfury

Interesting, but I don't agree, Scheer is a weak and non-confrontational leader who has failed to confront Trudeau on any issue. Bernier's defection may have Scheer breathing easier, but only because it will allow him to fully embrace the pabulum that passes for policy at the the CPC.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Interesting, but I don't agree, Scheer is a weak and non-confrontational leader who has failed to confront Trudeau on any issue. Bernier's defection may have Scheer breathing easier, but only because it will allow him to fully embrace the pabulum that passes for policy at the the CPC.


Actually, we agree here, mon ami. I do not see Scheer as a potential PM, and I am really not sure if the CPC policies will resonate across Canada comes the next election. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Interesting, but I don't agree, Scheer is a weak and non-confrontational leader who has failed to confront Trudeau on any issue. Bernier's defection may have Scheer breathing easier, but only because it will allow him to fully embrace the pabulum that passes for policy at the the CPC.


Another article along this line of thinking. Sadly, I am disappointed in PM Trudeau since his election. He has become more "photo op" than coming forth with needed policies. We shall see if he can turn things around in the next year.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-how-maxime-bernier-could-play-the-role-of-spoiler/


----------



## Macfury

I think the problem is that, even as a likely CPC voter, I can't articulate the direction of their policy. "Stop Trudeau" appears to be the only plank I can get behind.



Dr.G. said:


> Actually, we agree here, mon ami. I do not see Scheer as a potential PM, and I am really not sure if the CPC policies will resonate across Canada comes the next election. We shall see.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I think the problem is that, even as a likely CPC voter, I can't articulate the direction of their policy. "Stop Trudeau" appears to be the only plank I can get behind.


Again, we are in agreement. This might become a habit????????? We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I think the problem is that, even as a likely CPC voter, I can't articulate the direction of their policy. "Stop Trudeau" appears to be the only plank I can get behind.


That worked so well for Hiliary that the conmen had to modify it and adapt it as their own.

Since I am anti-war, anti-Jerusalem Embassy, and pro math it would appear that there is no party which meets even my main criteria.


----------



## eMacMan

duped!


----------



## eMacMan

https://calgarysun.com/cannabis/can...uana/wcm/bba634f8-9975-4408-a982-301c570554d7

I have some big issues with this. As near as I can tell this test detects even trace amounts, and gives a positive or negative result for various substances.

I could care less about trace amounts. I want to know two things, what is the defined impaired threshold and is there an amount sufficient to exceed that threshold. An exact reading is also crucial. Someone who is 10x threshold is a far greater danger than someone who is just above the magic cutoff. 

Without that info what we have is a cash cow similar to red light cameras, with the additional adverse effect of possibly sending someone to jail who is not at all impaired. On top that these tests seem to require 10 to 15 minutes, pretty easy to see Saturday night check-stops backed up for miles.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> https://calgarysun.com/cannabis/can...uana/wcm/bba634f8-9975-4408-a982-301c570554d7
> 
> I have some big issues with this. As near as I can tell this test detects even trace amounts, and gives a positive or negative result for various substances.
> 
> I could care less about trace amounts. I want to know two things, what is the defined impaired threshold and is there an amount sufficient to exceed that threshold. An exact reading is also crucial. Someone who is 10x threshold is a far greater danger than someone who is just above the magic cutoff.
> 
> Without that info what we have is a cash cow similar to red light cameras, with the additional adverse effect of possibly sending someone to jail who is not at all impaired. On top that these tests seem to require 10 to 15 minutes, pretty easy to see Saturday night check-stops backed up for miles.


It is been a very long time since I smoked any weed, but is there really a safe amount you can smoke before driving? Seems like the obvious thing to do would be zero tolerance. If you smoke don't drive. Not sure how the saliva will show if you smoked last night or this afternoon. I remember a small hit of weed hitting me a lot more then a glass of wine or a beer does.


----------



## FeXL

Sounds just like the ATA!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. He’s a terrible negotiator, unless negotiation in his mind means he wins and takes all. Everyone else can lose and he honestly doesn’t give a ****e.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Sounds just like the ATA!


If they gave a crap about the anybody else, the taxpayers burden would be a hell of a lot lighter. Instead, it's winner-take-all,


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Canada, how's that multikulturalism workin' out for ya?

Gruesome video shows cow slaughtered outside Milton mosque



> On Friday, my Toronto Sun colleague Farzana Hassan made a plea asking Canadian Muslims to phase out the practice of animal sacrifice as an offering to God after the annual Hajj to celebrate Eid al-Adha every year.


More:



> However, her plea of sanity to Muslim Canadians to abandon the tradition of slaughtering animals and simply donating the equivalent money to charity, may have fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> The very next day a resident of Milton, Ont., went live on Facebook showing himself skinning a cow that was hung face down from the blades of a forklift. The man gave a running commentary about his cow cutting prowess, boasting that within half an hour the cow would be cut up into pieces.


Further:



> Canada is not alone in the controversy surrounding animal slaughter by Muslims and other religious groups. A recent headline from London, England said “Muslims Caught Butchering Animals in Backyard for Eid” while in France police Paris seized 32 sheep that were found in the garage of a pizzeria ahead of the Islamic Eid al-Adha festival.


----------



## SINC

wonderings said:


> It is been a very long time since I smoked any weed, but is there really a safe amount you can smoke before driving? Seems like the obvious thing to do would be zero tolerance. If you smoke don't drive. Not sure how the saliva will show if you smoked last night or this afternoon. I remember a small hit of weed hitting me a lot more then a glass of wine or a beer does.


Interesting most say weed is not an issue and there has never been a weed overdose death. Seems to me from this story that it is only a matter of time until we have an OD death by weed. So much for how safe weed is.

*Spike in cannabis overdoses blamed on potent edibles, poor public education*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cann...education-1.4800118?cmp=news-digests-edmonton


----------



## 18m2

Just like the stepped up police checks for drunk drivers, the deployment of detection devices for pot will have some deterrent for pot smoking drivers.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Spike in cannabis overdoses blamed on potent edibles, poor public education


Curious how "basic stupidity" never enters the equation...


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> Just like the stepped up police checks for drunk drivers, the deployment of detection devices for pot will have some deterrent for pot smoking drivers.


What pot detection devices?

Yeah, I read the recent link but I remain unconvinced.

This is my chiefest concern regarding the legalization of pot: there still is not a reliable detector on the market.


----------



## FeXL

Art Of The Fail



> Trump says “jump”, Dow says “how high?”
> 
> More at Financial Post: Trump said he planned to end the current NAFTA treaty and replace it with the new deal negotiated with Mexico, potentially leaving out Canada


Comments salient.

Related:

(link from the comments)

Justin from Canada Painted His Country Into a Lose/Lose Trade Corner – More Details of U.S-Mexico Deal…



> By choosing politics over fundamental trade economics Justin and Chrystia from Canada have painted themselves into an isolated position on the renegotiated North American Trade deal. Here’s the basic Canadian conundrum.
> 
> The U.S. and Mexico have agreed to manufacturing origination terms; wage and labor improvements; elimination of AG subsidies and non tariff barriers; and removal of all protectionist tariffs – so long as the structural terms of commerce are upheld.
> 
> In order for Canada to join the U.S. Mexico deal they would need to:
> 
> * (1) eliminate soft-wood subsidies in the lumber sector;
> * (2) eliminate protectionist tariffs in the AG (Dairy) sector;
> * (3) accept the 75% rules of origin, eliminating the NAFTA loophole;
> * (4) agree to the enforcement mechanisms for all the above;
> * (5) allow U.S. banks to operate in Canada (financial sector).
> 
> Each of these five issues, now locked-in and agreed by the U.S. and Mexico are “take-it-or-leave-it” terms for Canada to join. There’s _almost_ no-way, given the politicization of the Canadian plan, for Justin and Chrystia to agree to those terms and keep their fragmented political support base appeased.


More:



> Therefore, absent total acquiescence, it is likely Canada will keep their soft-wood lumber subsidies, keep their protectionist Dairy tariffs, keep their banking rules blocking U.S. access, and face a 25% duty on U.S. auto imports – effectively destroying their auto manufacturing sector. Car companies (ex. Toyota) will simply leave Canada and return to building/assembling in the U.S.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Art Of The Fail


That seems like the deal to me. Can't blame Trump for looking after his own country. Wish Justin was doing the same.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Can't blame Trump for looking after his own country. Wish Justin was doing the same.


Nor can I. Yet at least one of the Progs on these boards is screaming blue murder because he's fighting for the best deal for his country.

What's the fault in that?

Juthdin is so busy virtue signalling he won't know what hit him when he gets his Butt(s) (sic) handed to him next election.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...ory-mps-have-no-intention-of-joining-bernier/

Certainly not unexpected.


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness for that. You want to start things off right, not with a bunch of CPC milquetoasts.



Dr.G. said:


> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...ory-mps-have-no-intention-of-joining-bernier/
> 
> Certainly not unexpected.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Certainly not unexpected.


'Course not! 'Cause many of them are the “intellectually and morally corrupt” ones Bernier speaks of. Throw in the spineless & the CINO's and you've just described the majority of the Conservative party. Does he really want any of them in the first place?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Thank goodness for that. You want to start things off right, not with a bunch of CPC milquetoasts.


Very true, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Federal report calls for special treatment of immigrants



> Imagine a government that says we should use taxpayers dollars to ensure small businesses hire immigrants over Canadian citizens.
> 
> Actually, in Justin Trudeau’s Canada you don’t have to imagine that.
> 
> A government report, one originating from the prime minister’s own department, is calling for government grants to be used to incentivitize small businesses to hire immigrants.


So, here's a little tip for ya, Juthdin: If I was of a mind to hire someone for my small business, I'd hire the best person for the job. Black, white, purple, green, polka dots. Male, female. Canadian citizen, landed immigrant. Catlicker, protestant, Amish, Zoroastrian, Frisbeetarian.

And, if that particular hire happened to be a female immigrant, the last gawddam thing I'd do is hook up with you two-faced lying commie virtue-signalling bastards for additional funding just so you could run rampant over my business & tell me how to run my employees.

Screw you.


----------



## FeXL

:yikes:

Trudeau government removes 'climate change' from name of cabinet committee on the environment



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has removed “climate change” from the name of a powerful committee of ministers but says the government is no less committed to the issue.
> 
> Trudeau also launched a new cabinet committee devoted entirely to Indigenous reconciliation, as part of a cabinet restructuring that was unveiled Tuesday.
> 
> The renaming of the Environment, Climate Change and Energy cabinet committee to Environment and Clean Growth reflects the government's commitment to addressing climate change through growing the economy, Trudeau's office said.
> 
> It also noted the committee's mandate remains the same and still includes the consideration of climate change, and the federal environment minister still counts herself a member.


Well, as long as we still have Climate Barbie around to tell me we ain't got no poisonous snakes living just down the street... :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Related:


----------



## FeXL

If this had been a white guy shooting a First Immigrant, the hue & cry from the left would have been heard world-wide.

16-year-old charged with shooting German tourist in Alberta



> A 16-year-old youth has been charged with a highway shooting in southern Alberta that left a German tourist with a serious brain injury.
> 
> RCMP say the youth, who is from Stoney Nakoda First Nation but can’t be named, is facing 14 criminal charges, including attempted murder.


NOTE: 16 year old _youth_. Not young adult. _Youth_. Eg., not ready to vote...


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Canada, how's that multikulturalism workin' out for ya?

Suspect in 2016 Lawrence Heights gunfight arrested in Alberta



> A suspect wanted in connection with a 2016 daylight gunfight in the Lawrence Heights area has been arrested in Alberta.


More:



> Toronto resident Abdullahi Abdikarim, then 20, was charged with attempted murder.
> 
> Then two days later on March 9, police said that they were looking for another suspect in connection with the case. Police said Yasin Mahad Ali of Toronto was wanted for attempted murder.
> 
> On Tuesday, police in Alberta said they arrested Ali, now 23, in in Fort McMurray, along with three other people as part of an operation targeting alleged fentanyl trafficking.


Attempted murder, drug trafficking, who knows what else? Fine upstanding citizens!


----------



## 18m2

The Federal Court of Appeals has cancelled the approvals for the TM pipeline. Regardless of whether you approve of the project or not the decision is a damming statement of an inept government.



> In the decision released Thursday, and written by Justice Eleanor Dawson, the court found the National Energy Board's assessment of the project was so flawed that it should not have been relied on by the federal cabinet when it gave final approval to proceed in November 2016.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-trans-mountain-federal-court-appeals-1.4804495?cmp=rss


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> The Federal Court of Appeals has cancelled the approvals for the TM pipeline. Regardless of whether you approve of the project or not the decision is a damming statement of an inept government.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-trans-mountain-federal-court-appeals-1.4804495?cmp=rss


Agreed. A flawed process _should_ result in a delay. Unfortunately, it's now our problem instead of Kinder Morgan's.


----------



## eMacMan

18m2 said:


> The Federal Court of Appeals has cancelled the approvals for the TM pipeline. Regardless of whether you approve of the project or not the decision is a damming statement of an inept government.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-trans-mountain-federal-court-appeals-1.4804495?cmp=rss





Macfury said:


> Agreed. A flawed process _should_ result in a delay. Unfortunately, it's now our problem instead of Kinder Morgan's.


Looks like the Idiot Trudeau passed along the secret to losing money in oil to his son.


----------



## FeXL

Further (and if you don't want to send MotherCorpse traffic):

Trans Mountain tossed



> The court ruled that the review contained one fatal flaw: it excluded the project's impact on marine shipping. That, in turn, meant that the energy board did not assess the potential impact of increased tanker traffic on the southern resident killer whale population.
> 
> That failure "was so critical that the Governor in Council could not functionally make the kind of assessment of the project's environmental effects and the public interest that the (environmental assessment) legislation requires," says the ruling written by Justice Eleanor Dawson.


Next link is a set of comments on the MotherCorpse article. Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.



> Galt Pipelines


I link it largely for the following comment:



> ...Let’s not forget the carbon tax that was promised as a way to buy a social license for pipelines – that is working out great for Alberta too....


Hey, Freddie, didn't Red Rachel accept the terms of the Federal carbon tax in exchange for a pipeline? Bang up job she did...

This is why you never accept terms from any lefty politician until you actually receive your end of the bargain.

Time to separate.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hey, Freddie, didn't Red Rachel accept the terms of the Federal carbon tax in exchange for a pipeline? Bang up job she did...
> 
> This is why you never accept terms from any lefty politician until you actually receive your end of the bargain.
> 
> Time to separate.


I was ready to post on this in the Alberta NDP thread. Every idiotic decision Notley has made supposedly to promote the pipeline has been wiped out. Albertans are just carrying the burden of her malfeasance with nothing to show for it. And he would vote for her again!


----------



## SINC

Yep, today's decision on the Trans Mountain pipeline is a death knell for Notley and her misguided band of socialists. Bye, bye NDP in just nine short months.


----------



## SINC

Same judge who killed previous Northern Gateway ruled on Trans Mountain. Coincidence? I think not. The court is biased.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ke...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1535710743


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> Interesting, but I don't agree, *Scheer is a weak and non-confrontational leader who has failed to confront Trudeau on any issue.* Bernier's defection may have Scheer breathing easier, but only because it will allow him to fully embrace the pabulum that passes for policy at the the CPC.


I disagree that Sheer is weak, based on what do you say this? Concrete examples please.

When the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner released her Trudeau Report finding him guilty of 4 contraventions of the Act, Scheer acted immediately by bringing forward an Opposition Day Motion that essentially required all MPs to be held financially accountable when they break the laws of the Conflict of Interest Act or violate the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons.

In his speech he focused mostly on Trudeau but also Bill Morneau who was also found to be in violation of the Act. He was very force full in his attack against the PM and Morneau for their wrong doings.

This is but one example of Scheer holding the PM to account for his actions. 

Just because you are nice and personable, like Scheer is, it does not mean that you are weak. In fact IMO being bombastic indicates weakness becuase your ideas and convictions aren't strong enough to speak/stand for themselves. You need to get all hot under the collar until you face turns red to try overcome your weakness. To quote Shakespeare he (rather than the lady) "doth protest too much, methinks".


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Just an FYI, here is the draft speech that I wrote for an MP on the issue:

DRAFT SPEAKING NOTES FOR THE OPPOSITION DAY MOTION PRESENTED BY THE HONOURABLE ANDREW SHEER LEADER OF THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION 


Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to a number of troubling issues that are directly related to the motion introduced by the Honourable Member for Regina — Qu'Appelle.

The motion applies to all Members of Parliament not just the Prime Minister, but it is the actions and inactions of the Prime Minster that made this motion necessary.

Essentially the motion requires all MPs to be held financially accountable when they break the laws of the Conflict of Interest Act or violate the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons. This is just common sense. As it is now when a Member of Parliament breaks the Conflict of Interest Act or violates the Conflict of Interest Code the penalty is just a slap on the wrist, “don’t do it again”, with little to no restitution paid for the infraction. We in the Official Opposition believe that is not enough of a penalty for the very serious infractions that were committed. There needs to be a greater disincentive to continue breaking the law other than saying tsk, tsk like you would to a child for sticking their hand into the cookie jar when they know they shouldn’t. 

We, as Members of Parliament are not children and should be held to a higher standard of accountability, integrity and ethical behaviour. We are in the position of holding the public’s trust in us so when that trust is broken there should be restitution that must be paid, not only in humility, but in actual concrete financial recompense when public funds have been used to conduct an illegal action. So that is what this motion is about. 

Now let us get down to the hard cold facts of why it was necessary to bring this motion before Parliament.

By taking his “holiday” to the Aga Khan’s private island in December 2016 the Prime Minister was found to be guilty of contravening 4 sections of the Conflict of Interest Act by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. The rulings made by Ms. Dawson were:

Mr. Trudeau contravened sections 5, 11, 12, and 21 of the Conflict of Interest 
Act.


Section 5 

Section 5 requires that a public office holder arrange his or her private affairs in a manner that will prevent the public office holder from being in a conflict of interest. 

I found that Mr. Trudeau failed to meet the general duty set out in section 5 when he and his family vacationed on the Aga Khan’s private island. 

Section 11 

Subsection 11(1) prohibits a public office holder or a member of his or her family from accepting any gift or other advantage that might reasonably be seen to have been given to influence the public office holder in the exercise of an official power, duty or function.

Paragraph 11(2)(b) provides an exception from this prohibition where the gift or advantage is given by a relative or friend, but I found that the personal relationship between Mr. Trudeau and the Aga Khan did not fit within the concept of friend as contemplated by paragraph 11(2)(b). 

I found that these gifts could reasonably be seen to have been given to influence Mr. Trudeau in the exercise of an official power, duty or function and, therefore, that Mr. Trudeau contravened subsection 11(1) when he and members of his family accepted the Aga Khan’s gift of hospitality and the use of his private island. 

Section 12 

Section 12 prohibits ministers and members of their families from accepting travel on non-commercial chartered or private aircraft unless certain exceptions apply, namely travel required as part of the minister’s official duties, in exceptional circumstances or with the prior approval of the Commissioner. 
I found that Mr. Trudeau contravened section 12 when he and his family accepted travel provided by the Aga Khan on private aircraft. The travel was not required as part of his official duties, the circumstances were not exceptional and he did not seek the prior approval of the Commissioner. 

Section 21 

Section 21 requires that public office holders recuse themselves from any discussion, decision, debate or vote on any matter in respect of which they would be in a conflict of interest. 
I found that Mr. Trudeau contravened section 21 when he failed to recuse himself from two discussions during which he had an opportunity to improperly further the private interests of the Global Centre for Pluralism. Shortly before, Mr. Trudeau’s family had vacationed on the Aga Khan’s private island. 

So these are the laws that the Prime Minister broke. But one of the most important and disturbing points that Ms.Dawson made was, “…he did not seek the prior approval of the Commissioner.” 

So the Prime Minister was either negligent or arrogant in not seeking the prior approval of the Commissioner. If he was negligent it speaks to his lack of judgement and if he was being arrogant it shows just how little respect for the rules and laws of this place and he feels that he is somehow above them and they do not apply to him. 

Either way had he asked for the commissioner’s approval before taking his extravagant gift from the Aga Khan, the Ethics Commissioner who have told him that he would be in violation of the Conflict of Interest Act and so he would not have taken the gift. Thus saving Canadians hundreds of thousands dollars and it is not just the security expenses but also the expenses of the Ethics Commissioner’s investigation that that took 10 months to conduct, which would have cost multiple thousands of dollars. Not to mention the thousands of dollars spent on the Prime Minister’s high priced lawyers to defend the indefensible which also came out of public funds. So all of these taxpayers dollars would not have been spent if the Prime Minister had done the right thing in the first place by seeking the prior approval of the Commissioner.

Sadly that is not the only reason why we in the Official Opposition brought forward todays motion. There are other cases of government members being found in violation of the Conflict of Interest Act and Code of Conduct, the most notable being the Finance Minister who failed to disclose who hid his corporation in France, and the Finance Minister has now been fined for breaking the law.

He has failed to be open about his many assets. He has failed to answer simple questions about what he owns, and why he structured his personal finances in the way he has. Most notably the Finance Minister’s fine was a mere $200 for his infraction. 

So there appears to be an unfolding pattern of behaviour here among members of the government, and most importantly the two highest powers in cabinet, the Prime Minister and the Finance Minister, who were both caught red handed sticking their hands into the “cookie jar” and attempting to get away with it when at the very least they should have known better. It seems they abide by the old saying, “It is better and easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.”

What message does this send to other parliamentarians and Canadians? What ethical standards of behaviour are they setting? It seems they are saying it is ok to violate laws so long as you don’t get caught and when you do get caught all you have to do is apologize and receive a very minor penalty or no penalty at all.

These people are our leaders who are supposed to provide the very best examples of ethical behaviour, integrity and accountability. They hold the public’s trust and so is it not reasonable that when they break that trust there should be a greater price to pay other than an apology and a couple hundred dollars as a fine? 

So that is what we are asking for in this motion, elected people who hold the public trust should have a more significant price to pay for their infractions, especially when it involves the misspending of taxpayers dollars.

Also I would like to add that the comments from the government members in opposition to the motion are disingenuous at the very least and even hypocritical. When the Hon. Bardish Chagger, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, states: “Normally, we expect opposition days to be used to discuss topics that directly affect Canadians, topics like employment and economic growth or maybe proposals that are put forward to help improve the lives of Canadians across the country. I know those are the things on which we are focused on this side of the House. However, the Conservatives have decided that the best use of the day for them is to talk about the Prime Minister.” 

I ask what can be more important than the ethical conduct of MPs and especially those of the Prime Minister and the Finance Minister? They are supposed to set examples for all MPs and Canadian’s at large. The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons seems to want to sweep these very, very serious issues under the rug where they cannot be seen. She and her fellow members of government seem to want to be magicians who rely on misdirection and distraction.

We in the opposition are not fooled by such actions. Thus we brought forward today’s motion to shine a spot light on the misdeeds of the government and propose an adequate way for those misdeeds to be properly accounted for by paying back to the public purse the funds that they illegally spent.

Also there is a definite hypocrisy presented by the members of the government by essentially saying, “the PM has apologized and so there is nothing more to see here”. That is completely laughable, because if the shoe were on the opposite foot and if former Prime Minister Harper was found to be guilty of such egregious infractions of the Conflict of Interest Act, the Liberals would have been all over the issue like white on rice and cried bloody murder and not let it go like a pack of starving wolves as they did with the Duffy Affair which lasted for months on end and in the end was a complete waste of time and money because the Prime Minister was never ever accused of any misdoings by the RCMP.

So in conclusion to reiterate what I have already said, restitution needs to match the severity of the infraction. No more slaps on the wrists, "just promise to never do it again". A leader is supposed to be an example of the highest standards of ethical behaviour. The Prime Minister and the Finance Minister have sadly fallen very, very short of being a good example and thus it made our motion necessary.

Thank you Mr. Speaker.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> Paying for *the beautiful wall* is a separate matter!


Ok this statement makes no sense to me. Did you think the Berlin wall was beautiful?

The wall is not only a physical barrier between the two countries, it is also a psychological barrier, i.e. the Americans think that we Mexicans are somehow substandard human beings, we are vermin that the US needs to keep out because we are unclean, uneducated and just not good enough to be in the US.

So even if the wall were to be somehow aesthetically pleasing (which you suggest by saying it would be beautiful) it would be a blight on humanity and all that it represents, intolerance, xenophobia, racism, and an antagonistic world view.

So IMO the wall, no matter what it looks like, will be an ugly, ugly thing and a blight on humanity.


----------



## Macfury

I don't agree. The Berlin Wall was meant to keep people IN. The Mexican wall is designed to keep illegal aliens out, so that they will apply for immigrant status using proper channels.

I referred to it as a "beautiful" wall because that was Trump's term-having fun with it. I doubt it will be more architecturally beautiful than a wall of solar panels, but certainly not a blight on humanity.

A country without enforceable borders is no longer a country.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Ok this statement makes no sense to me. Did you think the Berlin wall was beautiful?
> 
> The wall is not only a physical barrier between the two countries, it is also a psychological barrier, i.e. the Americans think that we Mexicans are somehow substandard human beings, we are vermin that the US needs to keep out because we are unclean, uneducated and just not good enough to be in the US.
> 
> So even if the wall were to be somehow aesthetically pleasing (which you suggest by saying it would be beautiful) it would be a blight on humanity and all that it represents, intolerance, xenophobia, racism, and an antagonistic world view.
> 
> So IMO the wall, no matter what it looks like, will be an ugly, ugly thing and a blight on humanity.


----------



## Dr.G.

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Ok this statement makes no sense to me. Did you think the Berlin wall was beautiful?
> 
> The wall is not only a physical barrier between the two countries, it is also a psychological barrier, i.e. the Americans think that we Mexicans are somehow substandard human beings, we are vermin that the US needs to keep out because we are unclean, uneducated and just not good enough to be in the US.
> 
> So even if the wall were to be somehow aesthetically pleasing (which you suggest by saying it would be beautiful) it would be a blight on humanity and all that it represents, intolerance, xenophobia, racism, and an antagonistic world view.
> 
> So IMO the wall, no matter what it looks like, will be an ugly, ugly thing and a blight on humanity.


Very well said. :clap::clap:

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> I think the problem is that, even as a likely CPC voter, I can't articulate the direction of their policy. *"Stop Trudeau" appears to be the only plank I can get behind*.


What do you think the Liberals used against Harper? "Stop Harper!" even by a page in the Senate. From a communications and marketing aspect it is a clear and simple message that everyone can understand. MF you are not the average Canadian you are interested in policy, most Canadians don't give a chite except for broad strokes. 

About the only Liberal policy that resonated with Canadians was support for the middle class. Which has been proven to be a complete failure on the part of the Libs.

It is almost like Trump advocating for the middle class and working people in the US which was a complete lie. 

Unlike Trudeau, Sheer is completely a self made man (with obvious contributions to his various campaigns) without being born with a silver spoon in his mouth, if anyone truly represents the middle class in this country it is Andrew Scheer and the CPC.

Remember it was the Honourable Jim Flaherty who brought in the TFSA, which was the greatest tax free savings plan made available to middle class Canadians. 

The rich were greatly limited by what they could legally contributed year over year. The policy was clearly directed at middle class Canadians (even better than an RSSP for many Canadians).

You seem to like Max but he is all full of pomp and xenophbia as well as many other failings. If he were ever to be elected PM I think I would have to move to Costa Rica, where my sister and brother in-law live six months of the year and they love it. It is one one of the most developed countries in Central America.


----------



## Macfury

The Liberals used "Stop Harper" and then they settled on that phony immigration story involving the poor kid who was killed after his father shoved him in a raft. I think that image unfairly sunk Harper.

No policy involving spending can benefit the middle class because they necessarily pay most of the taxes. Even the Harper government, which was far more careful with spending, spent far more than necessary.

I don't think you need to worry about Bernier's election, but I hope he elects enough members to form a legitimate party that could provide a swing vote on various issues.

However, I would not risk a vote on Bernier if it risked upending Trudeau.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What do you think the Liberals used against Harper? "Stop Harper!" even by a page in the Senate. From a communications and marketing aspect it is a clear and simple message that everyone can understand. MF you are not the average Canadian you are interested in policy, most Canadians don't give a chite except for broad strokes.
> 
> About the only Liberal policy that resonated with Canadians was support for the middle class. Which has been proven to be a complete failure on the part of the Libs.
> 
> It is almost like Trump advocating for the middle class and working people in the US which was a complete lie.
> 
> Unlike Trudeau, Sheer is completely a self made man (with obvious contributions to his various campaigns) without being born with a silver spoon in his mouth, if anyone truly represents the middle class in this country it is Andrew Scheer and the CPC.
> 
> Remember it was the Honourable Jim Flaherty who brought in the TFSA, which was the greatest tax free savings plan made available to middle class Canadians.
> 
> The rich were greatly limited by what they could legally contributed year over year. The policy was clearly directed at middle class Canadians (even better than an RSSP for many Canadians).
> 
> You seem to like Max but he is all full of pomp and xenophbia as well as many other failings. If he were ever to be elected PM I think I would have to move to Costa Rica, where my sister and brother in-law live six months of the year and they love it. It is one one of the most developed countries in Central America.


----------



## 18m2

Macfury said:


> I don't think you need to worry about Bernier's election, but I hope he elects enough members to form a legitimate party that could provide a swing vote on various issues.


There is a possibility that Bernier and his party might bring a minority government into power. A coalition of Cons and Bernier's party would be interesting if it lasts long enough to pass some legislation. Given Bernier's tendency to shoot from the hip the relationship could explode early.

Regardless I hope this election will see the end of Trudeau.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> I don't agree. *The Berlin Wall was meant to keep people IN.* The Mexican wall is designed to keep illegal aliens out, so that they will apply for immigrant status using proper channels.
> 
> I referred to it as a "beautiful" wall because that was Trump's term-having fun with it. I doubt it will be more architecturally beautiful than a wall of solar panels, but certainly not a blight on humanity.
> 
> *A country without enforceable borders is no longer a country.*


Not completely true, the GDR also wanted to keep western ideas and the people who may spread them OUT.

What about the EU? if you are a citizen of a country in the EU you are pretty much free to go to other EU countries freely.

Also do you really think that a 3,145 km long wall is really necessary to be considered an enforceable border.

We have the longest international border in the world (with the US) between two countries at 8,891.km So to be consistent with your statement "A country without enforceable borders is no longer a country" I guess you are suggesting that a wall between the US and Canada is needed in order for our borders to be enforceable and for us and the US to be considered separate countries. So who do you think should pay for the US-Canada wall?

Personally I would rather a moat or a big canal, it would be much less unsightly. Also with continental drift maybe we could just drift away from each other; no wall necessary at all.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Not completely true, the GDR also wanted to keep western ideas and the people who may spread them OUT.
> 
> 
> 
> What about the EU? if you are a citizen of a country in the EU you are pretty much free to go to other EU countries freely.
> 
> 
> 
> Also do you really think that a 3,145 km long wall is really necessary to be considered an enforceable border.
> 
> 
> 
> We have the longest international border in the world (with the US) between two countries at 8,891.km So to be consistent with your statement "A country without enforceable borders is no longer a country" I guess you are suggesting that a wall between the US and Canada is needed in order for our borders to be enforceable and for us and the US to be considered separate countries. So who do you think should pay for the US-Canada wall?
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would rather a moat or a big canal, it would be much less unsightly. Also with continental drift maybe we could just drift away from each other; no wall necessary at all.



A cross country wall along the Mexico border will do nothing to keep ideas in or out, and internet traffic is probably Trump’s biggest enemy. If he thinks a Great Wall is going to protect him from haters, he is sorely mistaken. Trump has a great many enemies on both sides of the wall, starting with those “enemies of the people,” the free press.

What will Trump do next about those pesky Canadians that aren’t showing him enough respect? Will we get a wall too right through the Rocky Mountains? It’s time Canada stops sucking up to the orange tyrant down south. He’s not doing us any favours.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Freddie_Biff said:


> A cross country wall along the Mexico border will do nothing to keep ideas in or out, and internet traffic is probably Trump’s biggest enemy. If he thinks a Great Wall is going to protect him from haters, he is sorely mistaken. Trump has a great many enemies on both sides of the wall, starting with those “enemies of the people,” the free press.
> 
> What will Trump do next about those pesky Canadians that aren’t showing him enough respect? Will we get a wall too right through the Rocky Mountains? It’s time Canada stops sucking up to the orange tyrant down south. He’s not doing us any favours.


Well I think in Trump's mind he isn't worrying about the spreading of ideas. 

He says he wants to stop the flow of illegals, who are willing to work dirt cheap, and "stealing" American jobs. Which is a complete fallacy, the illegals are doing jobs that US citizens would have to be paid at two to three times the wage of the illegals and then there all the tax implications by hiring US workers.

The rich and semi-rich are the ones who benefit by hiring illegals from Mexico. Cash only, no records and no taxes to be paid and these are the folks who will vote for Trump because they realize it is all a rouse to get middle Americans to think that Mexicans are stealing American jobs and so he can get them all riled up to vote for him and a wall.

Pretty savvy, disingenuous and disgusting all at the same time. 

Also he could say it is to stop the Mexican cartels bringing their drugs into the US. But the only reason why drug cartels are bringing drugs into the US is because there is a HIGH (pun intended) demand for the stuff in the US and hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars are to be made. A wall won't stop that, there are so many other ways to get drugs into the US no wall is going to stop it. The cartels will find other ways with their US partners in crime to still get the drugs into the US. Ever watch "Breaking Bad"? It was fiction but not too far from reality either.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Well I think in Trump's mind he isn't worrying about the spreading of ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> He says he wants to stop the flow of illegals, who are willing to work dirt cheap, and "stealing" American jobs. Which is a complete fallacy, the illegals are doing jobs that US citizens would have to be paid at two to three times the wage of the illegals and then there all the tax implications by hiring US workers.
> 
> 
> 
> The rich and semi-rich are the ones who benefit by hiring illegals from Mexico. Cash only, no records and no taxes to be paid and these are the folks who will vote for Trump because they realize it is all a rouse to get middle Americans to think that Mexicans are stealing American jobs and so he can get them all riled up to vote for him and a wall.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty savvy, disingenuous and disgusting all at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Also he could say it is to stop the Mexican cartels bringing their drugs into the US. But the only reason why drug cartels are bringing drugs into the US is because there is a HIGH (pun intended) demand for the stuff in the US and hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars are to be made. A wall won't stop that, there are so many other ways to get drugs into the US no wall is going to stop it. The cartels will find other ways with their US partners in crime to still get the drugs into the US. Ever watch "Breaking Bad"? It was fiction but not too far from reality either.




One could bring drugs over the border hidden inside containers of chicken batter, for instance.


----------



## Macfury

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Not completely true, the GDR also wanted to keep western ideas and the people who may spread them OUT.


I would say that was the secondary reason. However, I don;t think the US is afraid of Mexican ideas crossing the border.




Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> What about the EU? if you are a citizen of a country in the EU you are pretty much free to go to other EU countries freely.


The different EU countries are ceasing to be countries as a result of that. One of the expressed goals of the EU is to create a single European identity.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Also do you really think that a 3,145 km long wall is really necessary to be considered an enforceable border.


Only in certain sections, not the entire border.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> We have the longest international border in the world (with the US) between two countries at 8,891.km So to be consistent with your statement "A country without enforceable borders is no longer a country" I guess you are suggesting that a wall between the US and Canada is needed in order for our borders to be enforceable and for us and the US to be considered separate countries. So who do you think should pay for the US-Canada wall?


I think the level of illegal immigration between the two countries is so low that it is enforceable as is.



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> ersonally I would rather a moat or a big canal, it would be much less unsightly. Also with continental drift maybe we could just drift away from each other; no wall necessary at all.


Moats have their charm!


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Macfury said:


> I would say that was the secondary reason. *However, I don't think the US is afraid of Mexican ideas crossing the border.*


I already stated that to Freddie_Biff above.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

Freddie_Biff said:


> One could bring drugs over the border hidden inside containers of chicken batter, for instance.


Well there are certainly fictional accounts and circumstances where that may be possible.


----------



## smashedbanana

Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Well there are certainly fictional accounts and circumstances where that may be possible.



I think Freddie was making a joke. Think it was about the Cartel using Los Pollos Hermanos trucks in Breaking Bad..


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> I think Freddie was making a joke. Think it was about the Cartel using Los Pollos Hermanos trucks in Breaking Bad..


Thos trucks are back in Better Call Saul.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Thos trucks are back in Better Call Saul.




A most excellent weekly TV series too.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> A most excellent weekly TV series too.


We can agree on that. Carves out its own territory very nicely while dovetailing into the original series in interesting ways. It's a rather unusual feeling being "introduced" to characters with lifespans limited by a future storyline you already know about.


----------



## Imbackforalittlewhile

smashedbanana said:


> I think Freddie was making a joke. Think it was about the Cartel using Los Pollos Hermanos trucks in Breaking Bad..


I knew that, I was just riffing on his post.

But seriously any wall between the US and Mexico is not going to shut down the exchange of money and drugs between the two counties, The US has a great demand and Mexico has a great supply, it is basic economics, Sure lots of people will get killed along the way but neither the Americans or the US give a rats ass about that. For the both of them it is just business as usual. 

Sure there will be plenty of rhetoric on both sides denouncing this or that and saying we are doing this or that to alleviate the problem (like a wall) but even after a wall was built the same problems would still exist. Trump knows that but due to his election promise he will continue forward even though it makes no difference, except to slow down border crossings on both sides.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

“8,000 jobs disappeared this morning, and one of them was mine”



> In the aftermath of the Federal Court of Appeal’s horrendous decision to stop work on the Trans Mountain Expansion Project, this is what one pipeliner told me that day:
> 
> “Eight thousand jobs disappeared this morning, and one of them was mine.”


Thank you, Juthdin!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin Trudeau: No Trade Deal With U.S. That “Doesn’t Continue Exemptions for Canada’s Cultural Industries”…



> In comments yesterday about the likelihood of Canada joining the U.S-Mexico trade agreement, Justin from Canada stated emphatically that his country would not join any trade agreement that removes Canadian protectionist policy on “cultural industries”.
> 
> What are Justin’s “_cultural industries_“? Well, that would be control over media and telecommunications. In essence, Canada wouldn’t want any of that pesky free-market media stuff interfering with the state-run propaganda broadcasts. Yup, you can’t make this stuff up folks…


"Cultural industries”?!

WTF?!

Is that where the Liberal sausage is made?



> _The prime minister also said his government won’t sign an updated free trade accord with the U.S. and Mexico if the deal doesn’t continue exemptions for Canada’s cultural industries, *which aims to protect Canada’s publishing and broadcast industries.*_​


M'bold.

Yeppers. Sounds like.

More:



> _That too was entrenched in the original Canada-U.S. free trade deal that preceded NAFTA. Giving up the exemptions would be tantamount to giving up Canadian sovereignty and identity, Trudeau said._​


Wait. Wha...????

I dithinctly recall Juthdin noting that Canadians didn't have a particular _identity_.

Hmmm...

Further:



> Whether it be in the authoritarian control over social media, or in direct state control over broadcast and print media *the progressive worldview simply cannot compete on an open field of ideas*. Deploying a fancy catch-phrase like “cultural industries”, is only meant to obfuscate the inherent hypocrisy between what is espoused and what is actually true.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

Not Alberta. BC. Here, we would have not only encouraged, but applauded, her behaviour...

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Woman Sues For Human Rights Violation After Being Ordered To Wear Bra To Work



> A woman in Alberta, Canada, was told by her employer to wear a bra. She said no, so she got fired, she says.
> 
> Now, she has filed a human rights complaint against the employer, the Osoyoos Golf Club.
> 
> Christina Schell, a waitress, was fired after refusing to comply with the dress code that requires female staff to wear a bra, she says. "It's gender-based and that's why it's a human rights issue," she told the CBC. "I have nipples and so do the men."


----------



## Macfury

The walls have had some success:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/06/25/us-mexico-border-wall-works-tijuana-218835

https://nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/



Imbackforalittlewhile said:


> Sure there will be plenty of rhetoric on both sides denouncing this or that and saying we are doing this or that to alleviate the problem (like a wall) but even after a wall was built the same problems would still exist. Trump knows that but due to his election promise he will continue forward even though it makes no difference, except to slow down border crossings on both sides.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

(article from 2013)

Well, this explains a lot...

How Chrystia Freeland Hastened Reuters Next's Demise



> The dynamo who left Reuters to run for a seat in Canada's parliament was both the motivating force behind the wire service's ambitious digital revamp and one of the primary reasons it was killed, current and former employees tell BuzzFeed.





> According to sources close to the project, Freeland had never seen Reuters Next as an advertising play — one Reuters source said that she "made very little effort to ensure ads would work on the site" — and when it became clear ads had to be worked into the project, there were difficulties.
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> "I don't understand what they were thinking, 'Let's not run any ads, let's spend millions and see what happens.' The idea that it had to be monetized caught them by surprise," the Reuters employee said.
> 
> Instead, sources said Freeland's focus was on the brand and "beating the AP," and no so much to worry about advertisements being prominently placed or being at the forefront of the design process. This meant it was very difficult for the sales team to sell Reuters Next, as designing and standardizing ad units was not a focus of the project.
> 
> As if the issues plaguing Reuters Next weren't enough, the wire service's existing website had serious problems, too. The website was built on top of a system that shot out news to business terminal clients and newspaper desks who could append pictures and pick out which version of the story they wanted themselves. Placement of articles was largely automated, and embedding links was, at best, a major ordeal, sources said. Attaching videos and pictures to each story was just about impossible.
> 
> The website also couldn't do updates very well, which was a problem for an organization of 2,000 journalists that worked iteratively: breaking news in a headline, and then filling out the story with new information throughout the day. A major breaking news story, like the election of the new pope, could have up to 20 separate updates. As stories developed quickly, instead of being written into one stable unit, they would appear multiple times, each with a different URL, which was a nightmare for the website's editors trying to keep track of workflow and simultaneously adapt it to the new site.
> 
> When the preview and beta of Reuters Next launched earlier this year — after multiple delays — the front-end was admirably slick, delivering on the promise of a stream of content based around one story that brings in material from all of Reuters and outside sources. It impressed the Reuters board and outside critics like Nieman Lab.
> 
> *But the improvements were little more than a digital mirage. Behind the scenes, none of it worked.*


M'bold.

More:



> The technical, financial and editorial dysfunction inherent in Reuters Next quickly became apparent to the staff Freeland enlisted, who began to depart in droves. Anthony De Rosa, Reuters's social media editor, left at the end of May to become editor in chief at the startup Circa. A month later, Paul Smalera, who was the project manager for the new CMS, left for the The New York Times. Alex Leo, who was the head of product for Reuters.com, also left in June but stayed on as a consultant through August. Impoco had left in January, replaced by Jim Roberts from The New York Times, who exited last week when Rashbass announced the end of Reuters Next.


Couldn't design a successful website and here she is, a Liberal politician, attempting to negotiate international trade deals.

Canada is so screwed...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, I link to this page largely for the prescient comments, of which I found this one among the best:



> We agree to a deal, even with concessions, Trump wins.
> We agree to a deal, without concessions, Trump wins.
> We don’t agree to a deal, NAFTA is done, Trump wins.
> 
> In which one of those scenarios is the “win-win-win” and what is the likelihood we can get there before Oct 1?


No matter what happens, Juthdin is a loser.


----------



## Macfury

I've been watching Scheer on issues like the carbon tax and NAFTA but he isn't punching back hard enough--his messaging is weak and his stance is nebulous. I maintain that he isn't effectively taking advantage of Trudeau's weakness to stake out his territory.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I've been watching Scheer on issues like the carbon tax and NAFTA but he isn't punching back hard enough--his messaging is weak and his stance is nebulous. I maintain that he isn't effectively taking advantage of Trudeau's weakness to stake out his territory.


I agree entirely. With the TGF that has been Juthdin's term, Scheer should have been beating that dead horse into hamburger. He hasn't. At worst, he comes out with some mamby-pamby milksop that sounds almost apologetic.

When your political opponent is on the ground, you kick him into the gutter. You sure as hell don't stick out your hand to help him up. The time for that is after you've won.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Things you will see on the CBC



> That stuttering gob-smacked anchor has the look of someone whose bubble was just popped.
> 
> _@JohnGormleyShow @sunlorrie @joe_warmington watch the @CBCNews, @CBCPolitics anchor be completely thrown off guard by Frank Buckley’s brutally honest truth about Chrystia Freeland & the PMO’s handiling of the #NAFTA negotiations. #cdnpoli #Trudeau #cdnmedia pic.twitter.com/FcfwxZyQaL
> 
> — Saskawinner (@skwinner1) September 6, 2018_​


Comments hilarious.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on our crack Foreign Minister, the Purple Perogy.

Oh My – Canadian Foreign Minister Left NAFTA Negotiations To Attend “President Trump is a Tyrant” Conference…



> Jumpin’ ju-ju bones. Hat Tip to Ezra Levant on Twitter – This is going to go down in the history books of bad diplomacy. You have to watch the first 2 minutes of this video. Canadian Foreign Minister took leave during the middle of critically important trade negotiations with U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer to attend a Women in the World conference in Toronto.
> 
> Check out the conference introduction video (first 01:30) “Taking on the Tyrant”, and the visual of Canadian trade negotiator on stage to deliver her remarks (next 30 seconds). Consider that Ms. Freeland made this decision during the most critical trade negotiations in her country’s modern history. The outcome of the U.S-Canada trade negotiation will determine the next several decades within the Canadian economy.


What does it matter? She wasn't accomplishing anything anyways...


----------



## SINC

No surprise here. Never send a small man to do a big man's job. Oh, wait, it's Turdrow's petite fem.

I am so sick of this arsehole of a PM I could just puke.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on The Dope.

Not much ado about Trudeau



> He’s done little but legalize pot.
> 
> It’s a criticism of Justin Trudeau I hear again and again.
> 
> Is it true?
> 
> Not in any literal sense. He’s also screwed up NAFTA talks, bought a pipeline that can’t be built, angered our Pacific rim partners over his handling of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, bought old jets for our airforce while delaying purchasing new ones and he’s raised taxes several times.


Whew! Lotta work for a substitute drama teacher. Good there's a year left, he can take <ffffffffff....fffff...ff...'ere!> some time off & get some rest...


----------



## Macfury

And the cannabis thing was just a personal crusade for a known pothead. Dope was the only thing that could motivate him to get behind an issue.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s No Pipeline Plan



> Watch the play away from the bouncing ball. Trudeau’s pending legislation will block future pipelines. Read more here…..
> 
> _So while perhaps the Trans Mountain expansion will happen, though that is far from certain, other oil pipelines will not.
> 
> Not with this government._​


This was new to me (from the comments):



> Gerald Butts.
> Gerry used to head up the Canadian operations of the *World Wildlife Fund*.
> “Truth be told, we don’t believe there ought to be a carbon based energy industry by the middle of this century,” Butts said in 2012.


Bold mine.

I _knew_ there was something seriously wrong with this idiot.

I also find little to disagree with in this comment:



> ...Separation is the end.
> Of supply management.
> Of equalization.
> Of Trudeau’s.
> Of leaders from Quebec.
> Of leaders from Ontariowe.
> Of national energy programs.
> Of official bilingualism.
> Of the food guide.
> Of the charter of servitude to government.
> Of 3 year wait lists for otolaryngologists.
> Of trade wars for political gain by Liberals and NDP.
> Of premier’s conferences.
> Of the CBC.
> Of rule by distant citiot over lords.
> Of treaties that guarantee representation without taxation.
> Of Bombardier.
> Of fighter jet maintenance going to Quebec.
> Of Quebec.
> Of French on ANYTHING.
> Of RCMP gun grabs.
> Of kowtowing to the demands of brain dead morons in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal.
> 
> We need to burn it all down.
> It is time to spit on our hands, raise the black flag, and start slitting throats.
> It is time to be free of Ontario and Quebec and the maritimes.
> It is time to admit that Dumont and Riel were right all along.
> 
> Anyone not pushing separation, is not worth listening to, or voting for.


----------



## FeXL

From the "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" department...

Jagmeet Singh digging himself a deep hole



> New Democratic Party leader Jagmeet Singh has opened a new can of worms. His decision to bar sitting MP Erin Weir from contesting the NDP nomination in his own riding has sparked an open revolt in the Saskatchewan wing of the party.
> 
> “There’s a lot of outrage,” former Saskatchewan NDP MP Lorne Nystrom, a 32-year veteran of the Commons, told me in a telephone interview Friday.
> 
> “A lot of people who are solid social democrats say they won’t work for the federal party. Some say they won’t even vote for the federal party.”


Good, good, good!


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> From the "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" department...
> 
> Good, good, good!


Yep, I predicted this guy would kill the party when he was elected. What the hell were they thinking? 

The party is not electable with this guy as a leader.

I bet Jack's spinning in his grave.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Jason Kenney skewers Justin Trudeau



> Earlier this week as Trudeau was on his way to Alberta to offer up sweet tweet on restarting the Trans Mountain pipeline, a local newshound asks him a question.
> 
> What keeps the prime minister up at night?
> 
> “There’s a simplification and a dumbing-down of politics and a polarization and a fearful populism that really does worry me,” answers the apparently not dumbed-down Trudeau.
> 
> Kenney fires back. He’s known to have spoken a few well-chosen words in the past to describe the prime minister.
> 
> *“If Justin Trudeau is concerned about the dumbing-down of politics, that gives new meaning to irony,” says the UCP leader.*
> 
> Kenney chuckles.
> 
> “He’s Object Lesson One in the dumbing-down of politics.”


Yeah, bold mine.

Knocks it out of the park.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Backlogs, delays, aborted projects – let’s face it, Canada is grinding to a halt



> On Thursday the head of Suncor Energy – Canada’s largest oil and gas producer – said they’re not going to expand crude production for the next couple of years, at least not until they actually see some progress on other projects.
> 
> The Trans Mountain debacle is having ripple effects. A project that Kinder Morgan wanted to build, that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he backed, that Alberta’s NDP premier supported, that dozens of First Nations groups signed contracts with, and that public opinion stood behind – yet still it’s been put on indefinite hold. *If we can’t complete this project, what can we do?*


M'bold.

We can complete this project.

All we need to do is get rid of the bastards who are in this for purely ideological reasons: Knothead & The Dope. Once they're gone, we can get back to business as usual. Oh, once the tiny details of Alberta's separation have been dealt with...


----------



## FeXL

SIIIINC... Was this you? :clap:

Language Warning: Massive Anti-Trudeau Sign Spotted at Churchill Square in Edmonton



> A colossal f*ck Trudeau message has appeared in Edmonton’s Churchill Square on it’s #HappyWall.
> 
> The 17-metre-long pixel art installation has been in Edmonton since May 16th, and now the wall is covered in 1,040 coloured pixels made out of reclaimed wood that can be flipped around to create images or phrases.
> 
> It seems that an angry Albertan likely put the message on the wall this morning.


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

More:



> For example, according to a CBC article 97% of the drop in national tax revenues where due to Albertan taxpayers making far less money. Total income tax revenues declined by $4.98 billion that year, while the amount collected from Albertans, specifically, fell by $4.81 billion.
> 
> That loss of wealth occurred at the same time Alberta contributed more money to the federal purse than any other province in Canada, and received fewer dollars in return, according to a Fraser Institute study.


----------



## FeXL

So, after interrupting international trade negotiations to rush off & participate in a lefty Trash Trump symposium, the Purple Perogy returns to the table & is now all smiles & friendly with the US?

She's got a pair of big brass ones, don't she?

Chrystia Freeland Virtue-Signaling as Leverage for Preferential U.S-Canada Trade Outcome…



> After participating in a “Trump The Tyrant” left-wing symposium on September 10th, the primary Canadian trade negotiator appears in Washington DC on September 11th to demand preferential treatment based on friendship, virtue and neighborliness.
> 
> The combined audacity and virtue-smugness is off-the-charts with this one.


Unbelievable...


----------



## SINC

She and she alone is responsible for this mess with a great deal of assistance from the head dummy Turdeau.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!

Frankly, I'm disappointed that Saskatoonians didn't fill the place to overflowing with protestors. It'd be a pleasure to roast this bastard in public...


----------



## FeXL

Hmmm... Could have chosen a better name.


Maxime Bernier officially launches new conservative People’s Party



> Maxime Bernier has officially launched the People’s Party of Canada.
> 
> In a press conference Friday morning in Ottawa, the Beauce MP who left the Conservative Party last month, unveiled the name of his new conservative party and vowed it will be competitive in time for the 2019 federal election.
> 
> “Why this name? Because it’s time the Canadian government put Canadian people first when they make decisions and policies. he said, noting the party will be headquartered in Gatineau, Que.
> 
> “No one is speaking for the people.”


----------



## Macfury

I really don't like the name--sounds communist. 

Checked some policy platforms inside, and most are supportable, However, I'm no longer the supporter of "free trade" I once was, since it's pretty clear that such policies are more about cheap labour than effective allocation of capital. Free trade with the US and Australia is not the same as free trade with China.


----------



## FeXL

Yeah. Not crazy about the name either and for the same reason.

Here's their firearms policy. They call it their gun policy. I wish they'd call it "Firearms" policy. Or "Weapons" policy.

That said, it appears reasonable.


----------



## FeXL

What's _this?!_ Kaybeckers are gettin' tired of Liberal pap?

Party Vowing to Curb Immigration Favored to Win Quebec Election



> A changing of the guard appears to be on the horizon in Quebec.
> 
> With less than three weeks to go before the Oct. 1 election, an upstart alliance that’s pledging to reduce immigration is favored to oust the Liberal Party that’s governed the French-speaking Canadian province for all but two of the past 15 years.
> 
> Coalition Avenir Quebec, the eight-year-old party led by former airline executive and education minister Francois Legault, is leading in the polls -- though recent surveys show it may lack the support required to win a majority.
> 
> The CAQ, which is also pledging to make government more efficient, has the support of 35 percent of voters compared to 29 percent for Philippe Couillard’s Liberals, according to weighted polling averages compiled by the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. Ominously for the incumbent premier, 62 percent of voters surveyed by polling company Leger this month said they were dissatisfied with Couillard’s government.


Oh, that'd be saweet! Not only that, but this does not bode well for One Term Juthdin, either. :clap:

Interesting, this plank:



> With Quebec facing labor shortages in several regions and immigration now capped at about 50,000 people a year, the CAQ wants to cut the limit to 40,000 to better integrate newcomers. *It’s also vowing to give immigrants three years to learn French or face the risk of being expelled from the province* -- a pledge criticized by Couillard, who says immigration will be the true “ballot box question” on Oct. 1.
> 
> *The Parti Quebecois, meanwhile, insists immigrants must be better integrated and wants to make knowledge of French a condition for settling in the province.*


Yeah, my bold.

Rascis'!!!!!

However, this makes my blood boil:



> In power since April 2014, *the Liberals are playing up their track record of running budget surpluses* and helping to lower the unemployment rate to four-decade lows amid continued economic expansion.


Bold mine.

Purdy easy to do with an 11 figure check coming from Alberta every f'ing year. You're welcome... tptptptp


----------



## SINC

Enough of the forced French language bull****e in Canada. It is now spoken by barely one in five Canadians. Time to end the 'second official language' as being irrelevent. 80% of us do not speak french any more.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Enough of the forced French language bull****e in Canada. It is now spoken by barely one in five Canadians. Time to end the 'second official language' as being irrelevent. 80% of us do not speak french any more.


I would love to have been able to learn French, but despite three years of secondary school classes and an aborted half-year of university, it just wouldn't stick - due mainly, I think, to a childhood hearing impairment I suffered. Once French is offered as an elective for my son I'll definitely be enrolling him, and hopefully we can develop it together. My wife speaks three languages, and is working on her fourth.

I've never understood the Conservative hatred toward learning a second (or third, etc.) language. If I hadn't learned Spanish, I would never have learned to appreciate the artistry of Mexico's _Cantinflas_ or _Pedro Infante_. The music of Victor Jara, or Silvio Rodríguez. The literary genius of Eduardo Galeano or Gabriel García Márquez.

As for the requirement of French language services in Canada, Here's a refresher as to how and why it came about:

Understanding your language rights | Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages


----------



## Macfury

You're ignorance is stunning. Who cares how many languages people choose to learn? What's galling is seeing bilingualism infect politics on the provincial level. If you've ever had the misfortune of having to deal with Quebec government departments on a regular basis, you'll see that the desire to accommodate bilingualism goes exactly one way. 

I suspect that the "universal translator" is pretty darned close to reality, so learning other languages will soon be a matter of personal interest only.



CubaMark said:


> II've never understood the Conservative hatred toward learning a second (or third, etc.) language.


----------



## FeXL

Once again, for having a PhD in sociology, you have no clew.

Conservatives don't have a hatred towards learning another language. You want to voluntarily learn a hunnert languages? Go for it! Hair on ya. I wish I fluently spoke the first languages of my parents (neither of which, BTW, is French)

We have a dislike of having another language shoved down our throats when, on the other end of the country, reciprocity with English is non-existant. It's that old Prog double standard. Again...



CubaMark said:


> I've never understood the Conservative hatred toward learning a second (or third, etc.) language.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Once again, for having a PhD in sociology, you have no clew.


I'm not a knitter.



> Conservatives don't have a hatred towards learning another language. ....We have a dislike of having another language shoved down our throats when, on the other end of the country, reciprocity with English is non-existant.


Guess it's a Western Canada thing... down in the Maritimes, with our significant presence of Acadian descendants, the bilingual province of New Brunswick and the just-a-few-hours'-drive province of Quebec, French is just a part of our culture. 

Too bad for you... :-(


----------



## SINC

When I was 14 years old in the ninth grade in the 50s I was told by my teacher that I must take at least two years of French, no exceptions. I had no interest in French as it was not a language I had ever heard spoken within a thousand miles of my home in SW SK. I resented having to endure the torture of a terrible French teacher by the name of Agnus Thornton. (Some french woman, eh?)

I suffered through those two years and she picked on me relentlessly as she knew I detested both her and the language. She even called me a spineless jellyfish for refusing to speak it out loud in class. A real bitch that left a bad taste in my mouth for anything to do with French. During those two years, I failed every exam I had to write and learned nothing that I didn't immediately discard as useless regarding French.

Then along came the government with one French forced policy after another and later the Quebec government made it illegal in many cases there to even use English. I resented that too and do to this day. With only one in five Canadians using French, it's time to drop it as an official language and declare English Canada's only language. That is how deep my feeling towards the language remain since I was 14 years of age.


----------



## FeXL

WTF?



CubaMark said:


> I'm not a knitter.


No, as noted, it's a _conservative_ thing. Ain't too damn many conservatives down in the Maritimes.

Don't force it on us. If we want some, we'll ask.



CubaMark said:


> Guess it's a Western Canada thing... down in the Maritimes, with our significant presence of Acadian descendants, the bilingual province of New Brunswick and the just-a-few-hours'-drive province of Quebec, French is just a part of our culture.


What? That my life is lacking French _culture_?

Not hardly. Just because we have little influence from the French in western Canada doesn't mean we live in a cultural desert, you arrogant ass.



CubaMark said:


> Too bad for you... :-(


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> When I was 14 years old in the ninth grade in the 50s I was told by my teacher that I must take at least two years of French, no exceptions. I had no interest in French as it was not a language I had ever heard spoken within a thousand miles of my home in SW SK. I resented having to endure the torture of a terrible French teacher by the name of Agnus Thornton. (Some french woman, eh?)
> 
> 
> 
> I suffered through those two years and she picked on me relentlessly as she knew I detested both her and the language. She even called me a spineless jellyfish for refusing to speak it out loud in class. A real bitch that left a bad taste in my mouth for anything to do with French. During those two years, I failed every exam I had to write and learned nothing that I didn't immediately discard as useless regarding French.
> 
> 
> 
> Then along came the government with one French forced policy after another and later the Quebec government made it illegal in many cases there to even use English. I resented that too and do to this day. With only one in five Canadians using French, it's time to drop it as an official language and declare English Canada's only language. That is how deep my feeling towards the language remain since I was 14 years of age.




I can see where you're own personal bias stems from, but why do you want to inflict that bias on everyone else in the country? Many people like the French culture even if they don't speak it fluently. It's part and parcel of what makes Canada. Perhaps you would be better off living in a country that isn't bilingual, or one where historically French is not one of the options for bilingualism? You might prefer the USA, although Spanish is very common there.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I can see where you're own personal bias stems from, but why do you want to inflict that bias on everyone else in the country? Many people like the French culture even if they don't speak it fluently. It's part and parcel of what makes Canada. Perhaps you would be better off living in a country that isn't bilingual, or one where historically French is not one of the options for bilingualism? You might prefer the USA, although Spanish is very common there.


Why would I move when 80% of Canadians do not speak french? It is simply time to drop the bilingual imposition by governments on us. Enough already.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Why would I move when 80% of Canadians do not speak french? It is simply time to drop the bilingual imposition by governments on us. Enough already.



You seem to have a very narrow view of what it means to be Canadian. Much of the country takes pride in our official bilingualism even if you don’t.


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> When I was 14 years old in the ninth grade in the 50s I was told by my teacher that I must take at least two years of French, no exceptions. I had no interest in French as it was not a language I had ever heard spoken within a thousand miles of my home in SW SK. I resented having to endure the torture of a terrible French teacher by the name of Agnus Thornton. (Some french woman, eh?)
> 
> I suffered through those two years and she picked on me relentlessly as she knew I detested both her and the language. She even called me a spineless jellyfish for refusing to speak it out loud in class. A real bitch that left a bad taste in my mouth for anything to do with French. During those two years, I failed every exam I had to write and learned nothing that I didn't immediately discard as useless regarding French.
> 
> Then along came the government with one French forced policy after another and later the Quebec government made it illegal in many cases there to even use English. I resented that too and do to this day. With only one in five Canadians using French, it's time to drop it as an official language and declare English Canada's only language. That is how deep my feeling towards the language remain since I was 14 years of age.


I read this and 2 things come to mind,

1. A failing of education. A bad teacher can ruin a subject for anyone. A great teacher can breathe new life into it. I assume you had the same teacher throughout. Kids now have different teachers each year. 2 Years is also not enough to learn a language unless its immersion. It's starkly different from here in Ontario. French is not optional and it's every year. Immersion is an option in public and catholic schools. 

2. Personal experience. Should how we did things really be the measure of how things are done? If 80% of us are not bilingual we didn't really get it right? My kids are bilingual and I am glad for it. 

I mean try and find a German, Dutch or really any European who doesn't speak at least 2 languages. We aren't doing our kids any favors lowering the bar...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> WTF?


I'm also not a sailor.




FeXL said:


> .... Just because we have little influence from the French in western Canada doesn't mean we live in a cultural desert, you arrogant ass.


Hey, one man's poutine is another man's rodeo, I guess.

:lmao:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> I'm also not a sailor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, one man's poutine is another man's rodeo, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao:




I’d say the poutine is far tastier.


----------



## Macfury

You might prefer to live in another province after the NDP is shut out of government forever.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I can see where you're own personal bias stems from, but why do you want to inflict that bias on everyone else in the country? Many people like the French culture even if they don't speak it fluently. It's part and parcel of what makes Canada. Perhaps you would be better off living in a country that isn't bilingual, or one where historically French is not one of the options for bilingualism? You might prefer the USA, although Spanish is very common there.


----------



## Macfury

I'd be happy if they were better at sciences.



smashedbanana said:


> I read this and 2 things come to mind,
> 
> 1. A failing of education. A bad teacher can ruin a subject for anyone. A great teacher can breathe new life into it. I assume you had the same teacher throughout. Kids now have different teachers each year. 2 Years is also not enough to learn a language unless its immersion. It's starkly different from here in Ontario. French is not optional and it's every year. Immersion is an option in public and catholic schools.
> 
> 2. Personal experience. Should how we did things really be the measure of how things are done? If 80% of us are not bilingual we didn't really get it right? My kids are bilingual and I am glad for it.
> 
> I mean try and find a German, Dutch or really any European who doesn't speak at least 2 languages. We aren't doing our kids any favors lowering the bar...


----------



## eMacMan

A bit lengthy but well worth the read. I would not limit the 'pack of idiots' phrase to the current crop of crooks. The Harpoon also did everything in his power to promote a similar take.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/braid-liberals-own-bill-could-kill-trans-mountain-pipeline



> What would you call a government that pays $4.5 billion for a pipeline, then passes a law that stops it from getting built?
> 
> You’d probably call that government a pack of idiots. And you’d be right.
> 
> But this is actually a possibility, now that Bill C-69 is about to advance to second reading in the Senate.
> 
> This bill, whose horrors are vividly described in Friday’s column by Licia Corbella, is widely condemned as a confusing mess that will ensure no major project is ever built in Canada again.





> The bill not only revises and complicates rules for project approvals, inserting criteria up to and including gender issues, but creates an entirely new energy regulator to replace the National Energy Board.
> 
> That’s where the grave danger to the Trans Mountain pipeline lies.
> 
> Today, the project has no NEB approval, following the recent rejection by the Federal Court of Appeal.
> 
> It will likely take months before court-ordered conditions are fulfilled and a second approval can be issued, followed by a new cabinet order.
> 
> After that, there may be fresh court challenges.
> 
> Now, imagine if during this limbo period, Bill C-69 comes into effect.
> 
> The first thing any self-respecting activist would think of is a lawsuit demanding approval by the new regulator.
> 
> The whole business would have to start again under the new system.


----------



## FeXL

If that's the extent of French culture, you can have it.

I'll take the rib steak. Medium rare, please.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I’d say the poutine is far tastier.


----------



## FeXL

Only in Canuckistan...

Deportation halted because man’s gang tattoos could cause people to think he is in a gang



> A Toronto man ordered out of Canada for being a member of the notorious crime gang MS-13 has won a reprieve — with a judge accepting that his MS-13 gang tattoos could lead people to think he is a member of MS-13.


<just shaking my head...>


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Liberals using MS St. Louis apology to prop up failing asylum-seeker policies is unconscionable



> Justin Trudeau’s incessant contrition has been tiresome but, to this point, relatively benign
> 
> If you are a gay man or woman drummed out of the public service, the descendant of Sikhs turned away on the Komagata Maru, a survivor of Newfoundland’s residential schools or a member of the Tsilhqot’in First Nation, which saw six of its chiefs hanged in 1864, the prime minister’s rendering of a tear-stained formal apology may have offered some comfort.
> 
> But with news the government will formally apologize for Canada’s 1939 decision to turn away the MS St. Louis, a ship carrying 907 German Jews fleeing the Nazi regime, Trudeau has gone beyond merely apologizing for things that happened long before he was born.
> 
> This particular apology is being used to justify and exonerate current (failing) government policy on migrants crossing into Canada from the U.S.


Related:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Leona Alleslev leaves Liberals, crosses floor to sit as Conservative MP



> A Toronto-area Liberal MP, Leona Alleslev, is crossing the floor to join the Conservative Party.
> 
> Alleslev, who represents the riding of Aurora-Oak Ridge-Richmond Hill, rose on a question of privilege at 1:35 p.m. ET on Monday and announced she had taken an oath to serve her country while serving as a member of the air force, and that she no longer felt she could do that in the Liberal Party.
> 
> “My oath is to my country and not my party,” she said.
> 
> “Do not accept the status quo. Our country is at stake.”


Related:

Read the speech MP Leona Alleslev delivered before quitting the Liberals and crossing the floor to join the Tories



> Here at home, we see large amounts of capital investment leaving Canada while tax structures, federal infrastructure problems and politics prevent us from getting goods to market, deter companies from expanding and undermine our competitiveness. For the first time in many years, Canadians don’t believe that tomorrow will be better than today and that their children’s future will be than theirs.
> 
> This is not a strong economy.


Woohoo!!!

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Not a surprise to anyone paying attention.

NAFTA Talks Far 'Less Cordial' Than Freeland Letting On: Report



> With trilateral NAFTA talks having been on hiatus for most of the summer, the foreign affairs minister was in Berlin, barely one full day into a week-long diplomatic mission to Europe, when news emerged that the United States and Mexico had forged their own trade alliance in Canada's absence.
> 
> By Aug. 28, Freeland was back in Washington, hosting a meeting at the Canadian embassy, where sources say she gave members of the Mexican negotiating team a piece of her mind.
> 
> "She brought them in for that purpose," said one source familiar with the encounter.
> 
> By all indications, things haven't improved much.


More:



> Last week, in Washington for a full day of meetings with Lighthizer, *Freeland insisted the bilateral negotiations have been "constructive," "productive" and brimming with "goodwill."*
> 
> But multiple sources familiar with the tenor of those talks, speaking on condition of anonymity given the sensitivity of the matter, say the mood has been decidedly less cordial than the minister lets on in public.


Yeah, my bold.

<coughbull$h!tcough>

Further:



> "Nobody can really explain to me how Canada's going to get a better deal in a few months from now than they would today," Ujczo said.
> 
> "I think it's more political than procedural at this point. I can't see the U.S. changing its position on a lot of these areas. Why would it?"


We aren't & they won't.


----------



## SINC

Doesn't bother Turdeau a bit.

*Federal Liberals violated own fundraising rules*

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...-liberal-fundraisers-despite-promised-reform/


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Doesn't bother Turdeau a bit.


How would it? Gotta have a conscience first. And that fact depends on the presence of a brain... XX)


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, recall the Purple Perogy's exodus from the trade talks to park her butt on stage & roast Trump. Yeah, the Yanks ain't too happy 'bout it...

White House not amused with Freeland's "Tyrant" antics



> According to two independent Canadian sources, people who have been in communication with the White House in recent days, Freeland’s appearance on the Taking on the Tyrant panel is well-known in the West Wing and it is not popular.
> 
> “Everyone knows about it and they aren’t happy,” one source who asked not to be identified told me.
> 
> “They are pissed.”


More:



> This isn’t the first slip up for Freeland who this past June went to Washington to accept an award as “Diplomat of the Year.” In her speech Freeland made the undiplomatic move of criticizing Trump’s foreign and domestic policies in his own backyard.
> 
> That speech reportedly had Freeland banned from the White House and meeting with officials there.


Unbelievable. Way to conduct yourself, Purple Perogy. Directly from the Prog rulebook on how to make friends & influence people...

h/t SDA, from whence comes a couple of very candid comments.


----------



## SINC

Yep, for sure.


----------



## SINC

Yep.

*Canada is quickly losing its economic advantages*

https://postmedia.us.janrainsso.com...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537301506


----------



## SINC

Exactly.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Is that the sound of sucking I hear?

As HoM noted, 



> "Justin Trudeau straps on those...
> 
> ..."post national state" kneepads...


Canada Extends Olive Branch to Saudi Arabia After Diplomatic Blowout



> Canada is extending an olive branch to Saudi Arabia after a diplomatic blowout, as the countries weigh whether they can potentially avoid a prolonged standoff affecting Canadian firms and Saudi students.


More:



> While there’s been virtually no progress since then, next week will signal how long-lasting the damage will be. The Canadians are suggesting talks between the countries’ foreign ministers during meetings of the United Nations General Assembly, according to a Canadian government official who spoke on condition of anonymity. At stake is a Saudi order to freeze any new deals for Canadian firms operating in Saudi Arabia, such as SNC-Lavalin Group Inc., and to end an arrangement under which the kingdom provides thousands of doctors a year, and funding, that’s become a key part of Canada’s medical system.


Personally, I'd like to see Juthdin's ego turn this so far south the Saudi's would turn off the crude spout.

Then maybe, _just maybe_, we could get a GD pipeline built in this country.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

Even more important, who the hell is Thomas Lukaszuk? But he's right--if other Canadians can promote trade abroad, why is Trudeau not even able to renegotiate NAFTA?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> But he's right--if other Canadians can promote trade abroad, why is Trudeau not even able to renegotiate NAFTA?


Becauth ith's 2015!

Budgets will balance themselves! The economy will grow from the heart outwards! We now say, "peoplekind"! Small businesses are simply “ways for wealthier Canadians to save on their taxes”! He admires China's “basic dictatorship”! We need to rethink space & time! I don't read the newspapers, people will tell me if something important happens! If you kill your enemies they win!

Because he's the most under qualified, egotistical, self-centered, arrogant, silver-spoon trust fund baby, brain dead, useless as a tit on a boar MF PM this country has ever had the displeasure of being stuck with. 

_That's_ why not.

And I haven't even had a beer yet tonite...


----------



## SINC

Hmmm, wonder if this is the entire story? Or does she not like legal pot?

*Failure to launch: Inside Julie Payette's turbulent first year as Governor General*

https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...ttes-turbulent-first-year-as-governor-general


----------



## SINC

Baloney Meter: Do Liberal policies mean a typical family is $2,000 richer?

Nope, not so much.

https://thestarphoenix.com/pmn/news...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537646170


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Hmmm, wonder if this is the entire story? Or does she not like legal pot?


It sounds like she's an independent thinker, not a sheep. The Libs don't like independent thinkers...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Baloney Meter: Do Liberal policies mean a typical family is $2,000 richer?


Porno Willie a bull$h!tter?

Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

No. Reeeeeallly?!

Trudeau says NAFTA deal 'might not be' close as talks set to resume



> High-level NAFTA negotiations are set to resume in Washington as the U.S. and Canada push to reach a deal before the next deadline.
> 
> Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland will arrive in the U.S. capital Tuesday and talks with U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer are due to resume Wednesday, according to four people familiar with the plans who spoke on condition of anonymity. The Canadian dollar climbed on the news, trading 0.4 per cent higher at $1.2990 per U.S. dollar at 9:39 a.m. Toronto time.
> 
> Only a few days likely remain until a handshake deal would need to be reached in order to generate text of an agreement by Sept. 30, which is the deadline to allow a new version of the North American Free Trade Agreement to be signed before Mexico’s incoming president takes office. Canada, however, has signaled it’s in no particular rush.


More:



> “Every time we get momentum..." Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Monday


_Momentum_? Is that what you call this?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Juthdin, you funny guy!


----------



## SINC

Yep, it sure has and at home too.

*Has the world grown tired of Canada's super prime minister?*

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ke...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537803508


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Yep, it sure has and at home too.


McParland is too polite by half & needs to stop pussy-footing around.

1. Many of us were already tired of Juthdin even before he was elected as the Clown Prince.
2. I don't get the comments about his good looks. He's got a schnoze on him that would make an elephant blush.
3. McParland notes:


> Canadians love it when the rest of the world takes notice of us, especially if it’s with a tinge of envy. But it doesn’t go over so well when the attention is less positive


On the contrary, I jes' luvs it _every single time_ he looks like a horse's patootie. It's quite fetching, actually.
4. McParland talks about Juthdin's image. Frankly, his image is precisely where it should be: in the toilet. The placement is well-earned.
5. McParland also notes, "...the Trudeau people seem oddly disconnected..." What, Progs not having a clew? Ya think? :yikes:
6. McParland also notes, "Trudeau has the winter and spring to show he can wear big-boy pants with his colourful socks." Um, as a post-national feminist, shouldn't that be *big girl panties & fishnets*?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Juthdin's issues with the GG.

A sign the government is looking for an off-ramp for the governor general?

Subheadline: Do not be shocked if it emerges that this most touchy-feely of governments has created an expensive, superfluous position to provide a soft landing for Payette



> On Saturday in Montreal, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland said Canada will create an ambassadorial position dedicated to women, peace and security. She made the announcement at a meeting of female foreign affairs ministers. There were few details on offer, beside the commitment to spend $25 million to fund initiatives aimed at combatting gender-based violence and promoting women’s participation in peace processes.


Ah, yes. Our little Purple Perogy...


----------



## SINC

It was this kind of crap being insisted to be included by clueless Turdeau that has caused the NAFTA deal screw up in the first place. It has come back to bite him and his lady minister in the collective butts.

*Here’s one win for NAFTA negotiators: Trudeau’s 'progressive' trade demands are officially toast*

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/he...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537971407


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> It was this kind of crap being insisted to be included by clueless Turdeau that has caused the NAFTA deal screw up in the first place. It has come back to bite him and his lady minister in the collective butts.


Great news! That was step one. Juthdin isn't likely to lose a lot of votes on this.

The observation from Mexico about these issues belonging in domestic policy are bang on.

Now, step two: dissolving the dairy cartel. Don't expect this to come to fruition. He will lose a lot of votes here.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s Liberals defend PTSD treatment for a non-vet murderer



> Liberals hate when you say they are soft on crime and then……they give veterans benefits to a man that is not a veteran and got PTSD from killing a police officer and dumping her body. Veterans Affairs Canada pays for this and the Liberals defend it.
> 
> _I’ve had grown men break down in tears with me in bars. Seen tough guys turn silently inward. Watched as families deal with the despair caused by what we ask out men and women in uniform to do, to witness, to clean up.
> 
> That these real veterans have to wait while Christopher Garnier gets front of the line treatment is an affront to everyone that has ever donned the uniform._​


Related:


----------



## SINC

For only the second time in my life, I have zero respect for this idiot pretending to be a man. The first was his father.

*Trudeau stands alone as Canada — and the world — abandons green energy*



> Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s repeal of the Green Energy Act and balks by premiers of other Canadian provinces at Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s climate agenda aren’t rearguard moves by Donald Trump wannabes. They are part of a worldwide trend rejecting renewables, rejecting climate change alarmism, and embracing coal and other fossil fuels. Renewables and the high electricity rates they ushered in drove individuals into energy poverty and led industry to flee, putting the lie to the claim that wind and solar are the fuels of the future. Wind and solar, rather, have become the fossils of the energy industry; oil, gas and coal remain the fuels of the future.
> 
> China was once the poster boy of the renewable energy industry — just a few months ago Bloomberg stated, “China’s investment in renewables is leaving the rest of the world in its wake” thanks to its subsidy-driven growth. Now China has now begun to throw in the towel by cutting subsidies to renewables, an augur of the demise of investment in its renewables sector. With the cutting of subsidies to renewables in the EU, investment last year dropped to less than half of its peak six years earlier. Japan’s investment halved in just three years.


More at the link.

https://business.financialpost.com/...as-canada-and-the-world-abandons-green-energy


----------



## Beej

Background on the Edmonton truck attack guy
https://calgaryherald.com/news/crim...cker/wcm/a7382223-89a9-4791-9fd4-d15b287d284d

I"m not sure if this is all true, but I found it to be an interesting background story.


----------



## Macfury

USMCA--it looks like Trump got some of what he wanted, including more dairy imports. Canada got to keep the dispute mechanism it already had, but no movement on steel and aluminum tariffs. 

Need to look at this far more closely but does not look like a win for Trudeau.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> USMCA--it looks like Trump got some of what he wanted, including more dairy imports. Canada got to keep the dispute mechanism it already had, but no movement on steel and aluminum tariffs.
> 
> Need to look at this far more closely but does not look like a win for Trudeau.


But honestly was there ever a scenario where Canada would win outright? Even without Trudeau and Freeland were we really going to have a fair fight?


----------



## FeXL

Hell, yes!

Gawd, where to start...

The first, obviously, is Sock Monkey, the Purple Perogy and the man with his hand up both their backsides, Gerald Butthead. This was _never_ about an international trade agreement. This, from _minute one_, has been about how good the Liberals could look in the eyes of voters come next fall. "We took on the big, bad, Donald Trump & won!"

This commenter nails it, big time:



> For the Liberals – every step, every action, is about Image – for Votes. Not content, not the economy, but the IMAGE for the voters. They operate on the assumption that for 80% of the population, the feeling, the impression, the image – defines everyone’s opinion.
> 
> *Note that Canada went into this event with NO economic agenda, i.e., no requests for more economic access to this industry, to that market….No, it went in with social requests: gender equality, climate change…and…even interfering in State’s issues of right-to-work legislation. How’s that for the content of an international trade agreement? On the economic issues – it wanted NO Change.*


Yeah, my bold.

You go in expecting nothing, you shouldn't be disappointed when that's precisely what you get.

Further down the same set of comments:



> I tell you if I wasted as much time and money as Trudeau and Freeland did on this, and all I brought back to my boss was this deal, I would be fired.
> 
> This enitre NAFTA negotiation has been nothing other than a make work and make image project for the Liberals.


Another comment that nails it.

If Canuckistan had sent in _real_ economic experts in international trade, with a set of economic demands (instead of feel good social justice pap, which has no business being in _any_ international trade agreement) and stuck to their guns, we could have made out like bandits. Instead, we're sucking the hind tit, behind Mexico.

What an embarrassment to Canadians as a whole & to the entire international community... 

And one more, again, from the same page:



> Canada will always be a Western nation backwater, as long as we continue to be feminist nice guys. I was discussing Canada with my son last night, and I said, “As long as Canada sits on it’s resources like they’re a contaminant to never be released, we will always be a weak nation”. Canada has some of the world’s largest reserves in natural resources, and yet we punish anyone who tries to exploit our advantage. We punish anyone who tries to assist in bringing it to market. We punish anyone who even advocates for using these resources. We could be the number one oil producer in the world. We could be the number one lumber exporter in the world, and we could be the largest mineral exporter as well. Never mind the fishing, agriculture and water. We exported a high of 467 billion dollars of goods and resources in 2017, we could easily double and triple that without building up a sweat. The Federal government would be rolling in cash, and unemployment would be negligible. But instead, we allow ourselves to be saddled with a cabal of eastern elitists that insist their palms get greased on every transaction, and each deal serves to make them appear to be heroes to their activist sycophants. Canada, having to watch the U.S. grow in leaps and bounds while we’re forced to sit along the wall like long forgotten, recently widowed ladies, who were not allowed to dance lest it be improper, is going to dissolve. One can only take pressing one’s face against the glass for so long, before one chooses to remove it.





smashedbanana said:


> But honestly was there ever a scenario where Canada would win outright? Even without Trudeau and Freeland were we really going to have a fair fight?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> USMCA--it looks like Trump got some of what he wanted,


Indeed. Trump also succeeded in "putting America first" in the acronym, which I imagine was one of his very petty goals...




Macfury said:


> Need to look at this far more closely but does not look like a win for Trudeau.


The federal Liberals screwed the pooch on this one, for sure. The opening of Canadian dairy to foreign competition is concerning (and already under threat due to the provisional application of tariff-free imports of European cheese under the yet-to-be-ratified CETA agreement). The steel industry certainly has nothing to cheer here. And Canada's health care expenses are set to jump with further gifts to pharmaceutical companies.


----------



## Macfury

The Quebec election results are bad news for Trudeau, who now faces more opposition to his desire to transform Canada into the first "post-national state." Looks good on you Justin!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The Quebec election results are bad news for Trudeau, who now faces more opposition to his desire to transform Canada into the first "post-national state." Looks good on you Justin!


Just had a looksee at the results. Nice!

Come May, when Red Rachel gets her goom-bye in Albertistan, there will be very few Canadians carrying provincial Prog chains.

Give Trudles the shoe in the fall, this country may well be worth living in for a few years!

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## SINC

Trudeau's claim of victory in trade deal is hollow - Canada was played

We are now in a new era of managed trade, where the U.S. has the ability to cap Canada’s growth

https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1538435112


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Trudeau's claim of victory in trade deal is hollow - Canada was played
> 
> We are now in a new era of managed trade, where the U.S. has the ability to cap Canada’s growth
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1538435112


If Canada had set out some important negotiating points from the start, things might have turned out differently. Instead his many demands to reimagine NAFTA in prog language were a non-starter.

I like the idea of breaking up the dairy marketing boards, but allowing the US to take a small chunk of the market--then paying the dairy farmers for their losses--seems like an idiotic idea that will not help consumers here.


----------



## CubaMark

*With its new trade deal, Canada surrenders sovereignty to a bully*

Clause 32 goes even further than informing America about any negotiations with China, or giving Washington the text of any deal with China. Clause 32 obliges Canada to inform America, at least three months in advance, of any "intention" to pursue negotiations. It is a certain surrender of sovereignty.

But Canada in the end probably didn't have much choice. When your economy is so stitched to a power the size of America, you eventually do as you're told. You sign a deal like this one, even if it doesn't protect you from Trump's illegal "232" maneuver – declaring that Canadian aluminium and steel constitute a threat to American national security, and therefore must be tariffed.

The idea that Canadian metal threatens American security is lunacy. The fact that Trump, with a smug smile, is actually citing it, and gets to continue to cite it at will, says all that needs to be said about his regard for the "closest of friends" relationship we've been told about all our lives. To Trump, Canada is a bothersome vassal that needs to learn its place in an American-led world.

(CBC)​


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> USMCA--it looks like Trump got some of what he wanted, including more dairy imports. Canada got to keep the dispute mechanism it already had, but no movement on steel and aluminum tariffs.
> 
> Need to look at this far more closely but does not look like a win for Trudeau.


Looks like I will now have to make sure all our dairy stuff is Canadian sourced. Trump and Turdeau may be OK with Bovine Growth Hormone in their dairy products, but I would prefer to not take any chances.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> If Canada had set out some important negotiating points from the start, things might have turned out differently. Instead his many demands to reimagine NAFTA in prog language were a non-starter.
> 
> I like the idea of breaking up the dairy marketing boards, but allowing the US to take a small chunk of the market--then paying the dairy farmers for their losses--seems like an idiotic idea that will not help consumers here.


What is interesting is that many small U.S. farmers would adopt our SM system. The myth of the family farm, even in Canada, certainly prevails. But I wouldn’t get to excited about the USMC until you can actually read the document ( probably all 2000 pages of it ). Also, this has to pass through 3 governments. To me, this agreement is all about China......


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> The idea that Canadian metal threatens American security is lunacy.


I have heard that Canadians have been importing wholesale Chinese metal, then exporting to the US and calling it Canadian.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> I have heard that Canadians have been importing wholesale Chinese metal, then exporting to the US and calling it Canadian.


Not sure how possible this is....maybe a jobber if true. Steel is a lot like lumber, it comes with certificates that out lines it’s type, chemical properties and mill.

I would think most steel imported into the U.S. from Canada is mill steel. If a mill goes down then jobbers might fill in.

To Cubamark’s point on security threat, the threat is not Canada but the supply chain. However, the military purchases of steel and aluminum are truly microscopic when compared to the metal market in the U.S. So, yes, while there could be a supply threat, domestic production could cover the military demand. Aluminum might be the only issue....note the U.S. Air Force built a base just outside Quebec so it could be near the aluminum smelter there....coincident.....not likely.


----------



## FeXL

So, I'm not going to click on a MotherCorpse link but I will comment on your excerpt.

The surrender to sovereignty began when Trudles sent _The Kids In The Hall_ to negotiate an international trade deal armed with little more than Pussy Hats, SJW talking points and Snowflake mentality instead of adults bringing tangible negotiating points to the table.

And, _and_, The Purple Perogy's mouth and her interruption of negotiations to attend that little Trump hatefest certainly did not help the situation. Tact, anyone? You don't crap all over the guy you're trying to negotiate an international trade deal with.

The Dope was caught hands down when this all came to light, despite the fact that the Feds were aware of the deadline a full year in advance. A true leader would have been hammering on this project for months. I guess Mr Dressup was just too busy changing costumes in faraway ports to take note of such trivial & menial things as expiring international trade deals.

MotherCorpse can p!$$ & moan as much as it wants about Canada being America's vassal. Trump is a businessman, first & foremost. His loyalty is to the US. One can hardly fault him for that. That we had someone on our team who was just as skilled, informed and as ruthless in defending our own _economic_ interests is a dream devoutly to be wished.

We got exactly what we deserve, considering the idiots involved, the empty demands & the time frame taken.



CubaMark said:


> _It is a certain surrender of sovereignty._


----------



## 18m2

FeXL said:


> You don't crap all over the guy you're trying to negotiate an international trade deal with.


Trump didn't use that tactic????????


----------



## Macfury

Justin began the backstabbing at the G7 meeting, going to the media with his complaints about the US before speaking to Trump.



18m2 said:


> Trump didn't use that tactic????????


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> Trump didn't use that tactic????????


Dunno.

Examples?


----------



## 18m2

FeXL said:


> Dunno.
> 
> Examples?


video ...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztTzLdy5DY[/ame]


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> If Canada had set out some important negotiating points from the start, things might have turned out differently. Instead his many demands to reimagine NAFTA in prog language were a non-starter.
> 
> I like the idea of breaking up the dairy marketing boards, but allowing the US to take a small chunk of the market--then paying the dairy farmers for their losses--seems like an idiotic idea that will not help consumers here.


Maybe but that is working on the assumption that we wanted to re-negotiate. Did we? Could we ever expect a better deal on anything than free trade?

The progressive agenda stuff was nonsense agreed. Not sure if there was a plan there as something to give up in negotiation.

Canada was a on the defense from the start. And positive spins aside we didn't have allies in this. Not Mexico, not congress.

We had a Trump that is nothing if not Results Oriented at a cost to all other things. Diplomacy be damned. 

Tariff Steel no problem. Never mind that Ford Motors said that has shaved $1B in black ink off their books. Never mind that China is not dumping cheap steel in any significant quantity on the U.S. and that they are reducing output by 25% in the next 2 years.. Never mind that Ontario is the significant supplier of Steel.

Who cares about the 3.75% of the dairy market. We would have given them more than that if they hadn't left TPP. And took apart supply management within 10 years. Dairy is such a small number when it comes to just dollars (relative to other trade with the U.S.). 

The preservation of the dispute resolution was no small thing. We will see more from it in the years to come....


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> video ...


Did Trump say anything inaccurate?


----------



## FeXL

Further on Kaybeck's provincial election results.

Well, its official, Quebec is now to the right of Alberta.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!

Hadn't thought of it in those terms.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Not for long, however. :clap: :heybaby:


----------



## Macfury

The US has its own versions of supply management and subsidies, including corn and dairy. These should have been put on the table in exchange for access to Canadian dairy markets. 

Mexico at the very least advocated for Canada to be included in a trilateral agreement, but you may recall that Canada sat on its ass for weeks while Mexico completed its bilateral negotiations.

Could something better have been negotiated? Impossible to tell. But Canada played a really weak hand here.



smashedbanana said:


> Maybe but that is working on the assumption that we wanted to re-negotiate. Did we? Could we ever expect a better deal on anything than free trade?
> 
> The progressive agenda stuff was nonsense agreed. Not sure if there was a plan there as something to give up in negotiation.
> 
> Canada was a on the defense from the start. And positive spins aside we didn't have allies in this. Not Mexico, not congress.
> 
> We had a Trump that is nothing if not Results Oriented at a cost to all other things. Diplomacy be damned.
> 
> Tariff Steel no problem. Never mind that Ford Motors said that has shaved $1B in black ink off their books. Never mind that China is not dumping cheap steel in any significant quantity on the U.S. and that they are reducing output by 25% in the next 2 years.. Never mind that Ontario is the significant supplier of Steel.
> 
> Who cares about the 3.75% of the dairy market. We would have given them more than that if they hadn't left TPP. And took apart supply management within 10 years. Dairy is such a small number when it comes to just dollars (relative to other trade with the U.S.).
> 
> The preservation of the dispute resolution was no small thing. We will see more from it in the years to come....


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*



Macfury said:


> The US has its own versions of supply management and subsidies, including corn and dairy. These should have been put on the table in exchange for access to Canadian dairy markets.


Precisely. It's the first thing that should have hit the table.

"Mr. Trump, you want us to kill our supply management & subsidies? Fine. Let's talk yours."

Every dumb farmer in this country has known about subsidies to American farmers for decades. Curious that the Laurentian elite international trade negotiating team, headed by the Purple Perogy & starring _The Kids In The Hall_, didn't.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Cowardly, spineless, MF POS.

Trudeau bails on vote to denounce child killer



> Justin Trudeau stood in the House of Commons and said he would not denounce the special treatment being awarded to child killer Terri Lynne McClintic.
> 
> MPs were asked to vote on a Conservative motion denouncing the fact that McClintic has been moved from a secure prison facility to a healing lodge with no fence and children present.
> 
> Trudeau couldn’t do it. In fact, when the time came for MPs to vote, Trudeau bailed.
> 
> He didn’t stay and stand for the vote, he voted on the bill immediately before this and left so no record of his cowardice is on file.


----------



## FeXL

Child Euthanasia without Parent Approval Pushed for Canada



> I always say that if you want to know what is likely to go wrong in healthcare (and society) in the coming years, you should read ethics articles in professional journals.
> 
> Case in point: With lethal-injection euthanasia now legal in Canada for patients age 18 and over whose deaths are “foreseeable” (a vague limitation sure to be erased eventually), eager bioethicists describe a proposed protocol to govern child euthanasia once legal authority expands to include minors (as it has in the Netherlands and Belgium).


More:



> One would think that — at a bare minimum — such homicides should require parental permission. But no. If the child is considered mature enough to make decisions, parents can be kept out of the death discussions. Indeed, the authors envision scenarios in which parents aren’t even notified by doctors that they are going to kill their child! (My italics.)
> 
> _If, however, a capable [legally underage] patient explicitly indicates that they do not want their family members involved in their decision-making, although healthcare providers may encourage the patient to reconsider and involve their family, ultimately the wishes of capable patients with respect to confidentiality must be respected. If we regard MAID as practically and ethically equivalent to other medical decisions that result in the end of life, then confidentiality regarding MAID should be managed in this same way._​
> Can you imagine visiting your sick child, only to learn that hospital doctors killed her because she asked to die and wanted you kept in the dark? The rage and agony would be unimaginable.


Stunning...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on cowardly, spineless Liberals.

Where does your MP stand...

...on child rape and murder...



> "That, given Terri-Lynne McClintic was convicted of first-degree murder in the *horrific abduction, rape and murder* of *eight-year-old Tori Stafford*, and was moved from a secure facility to a *healing lodge without fences and where the government has confirmed the presence of children*, the House condemn this decision and call upon the government to *exercise its moral, legal and political authority to ensure this decision is reversed* and cannot happen again in other cases."


Links' bold.

And, _and_, from what I've read, the healing lodge's Indian band Chief wasn't consulted about this & ain't too happy about it, either.

Comments outstanding:

When It Came Time To Stand, Trudeau Ran

Former Liberal MP Dan McTeague calls Trudeau “unhinged” and in need of professional help



> If it weren’t obvious enough that the prime minister was completely on the wrong side when it comes to allowing the killer of eight-year-old Tori Stafford to remain in a minimum security healing lodge, it just got a lot more clear.
> 
> Even a former Liberal MP is now calling Trudeau out, as earlier today Dan McTeague an 18-year member of parliament described the prime minister’s bizarre outburst to the media following his handling of the Tori Stafford bill as “unhinged” and in need of professional help.
> 
> _*By now, it should be apparent, even to some in the media, that this guy is unhinged. He clearly has issues and should perhaps seek professional help*_​


Too polite by half...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on The Dope legalizing dope.

Cannabis 'more harmful than alcohol' for teen brains



> Teenagers using cannabis are causing long-lasting damage to their developing brains, a Canadian study suggests.


----------



## FeXL

ROTFLMAO...

Congrats to the cartoonist who captured their idiotic and arrogant facial expressions.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Trump even got his socks!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

This will be the end of Trudeau and the Liberals as government. 

Feds on track to impose carbon tax on growing number of provinces on Jan. 1.

https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1538760668


----------



## SINC

Right on the money!


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> This will be the end of Trudeau and the Liberals as government.
> 
> Feds on track to impose carbon tax on growing number of provinces on Jan. 1.
> 
> https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1538760668


Sinc, believe it or not the Libs are not dead in the water on this. I don’t see them losing the election next year as there is too much time between now and then to shore up the vote. I think Notley is in the same boat, people may complain now but next year will be another matter.

I don’t see the Cons defeating him, and as for the NDP......not a chance in hell. The issue with Trudeau is he ran on a presidential style campaign....live or die by it....I think the spin doctors will ramp that up....he already has been to Windsor ...why, because there might be a seat in question currently held by the NDP.....he has already started the campaign one $1000 meal at a time.


----------



## eMacMan

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...sion/wcm/6035ce5b-ee1f-44ad-982a-ea765c804b89
So it's OK to turn this lunatic loose in Edmonton but not in Calgary? Is the theory that if he kills a government employee no harm no foul?



> Matthew de Grood was charged with first-degree murder in the deaths of Zackariah Rathwell, 21; Jordan Segura, 22; Kaitlin Perras, 23; Josh Hunter, 23; and Lawrence Hong, 27. A judge found him not criminally responsible in 2016 because he was suffering from a mental disorder at the time and did not understand his actions were wrong.
> 
> The Alberta Review Board decided this week to move de Grood from a secure psychiatric hospital in Calgary to one in Edmonton, where he could be granted unsupervised ground privileges and supervised day passes with staff or a responsible adult. It said he could eventually be placed in a halfway house with 24-hour supervision.





> The board’s report said de Grood’s schizophrenia and major depressive disorder are in full remission.
> 
> “It is the opinion of the board that de Grood remains a significant threat to the public were he to relapse into a full psychotic state,” it said. “Transferring de Grood to (Edmonton) to continue his treatment is the best way of protecting the safety of the public while imposing the least onerous order upon him.”


----------



## macintosh doctor

only in Canada - smh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICbfeKOmA5w&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop


----------



## Beej

A kick of tolerance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7SqtIe5rZQ&feature=youtu.be

Kick away the wrongthink.

Would also have worked in the anti-progressive thread, but it is Canadian news.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> A kick of tolerance
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7SqtIe5rZQ&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Kick away the wrongthink.
> 
> Would also have worked in the anti-progressive thread, but it is Canadian news.


I heard that butthole was arrested. It's shocking to see how violence seems to now be the calling card of the "progressive" left.


----------



## Vandave

I'm so sick of Trudeau. He is easily the worst politician I have lived under in my life. I see so many people turning against him with similar sentiments.

It's no secret that I'm a Conservative, but I can be comfortable under a Liberal as well and I was fine with Chretien at the time. Harper looks so good contrasted against this idiot. The sad thing is that with a weak NDP and split Conservative vote, he'll get another 4 years.


----------



## Rps

It will be interesting to see. The real issue with the Libs is that they have lost their provincial base. When Trudeau came to power the Libs had, what, 7 provincial Liberal governments.....now they have none.....that will hurt them. As for the NDP, they won’t carry Quebec and Singh will be lucky to win his parachuted seat..... as for the split Conservative vote, it won’t be split. The People’s Party won’t have enough candidates or riding associations to make a difference this time around...if ever. It takes a significant effort to rise a party...especially one without provincial counterparts.


----------



## eMacMan

Vandave said:


> I'm so sick of Trudeau. He is easily the worst politician I have lived under in my life. I see so many people turning against him with similar sentiments.
> 
> It's no secret that I'm a Conservative, but I can be comfortable under a Liberal as well and I was fine with Chretien at the time. Harper looks so good contrasted against this idiot. The sad thing is that with a weak NDP and split Conservative vote, he'll get another 4 years.


It takes an extreme degree of graftiness to make The Harpoon look good in comparison.


----------



## 18m2

eMacMan said:


> It takes an extreme degree of graftiness to make The Harpoon look good in comparison.


Really????

I'd take Harper any day, every day over Trudeau. 

At least he is smart.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, believe it or not the Libs are not dead in the water on this. I don’t see them losing the election next year as there is too much time between now and then to shore up the vote. I think Notley is in the same boat, people may complain now but next year will be another matter.
> 
> I don’t see the Cons defeating him, and as for the NDP......not a chance in hell. The issue with Trudeau is he ran on a presidential style campaign....live or die by it....I think the spin doctors will ramp that up....he already has been to Windsor ...why, because there might be a seat in question currently held by the NDP.....he has already started the campaign one $1000 meal at a time.





18m2 said:


> Really????
> 
> I'd take Harper any day, every day over Trudeau.
> 
> At least he is smart.


Well, lets face it, Trudeau is losing support every hour of every day and the NDP leader trying to be 'an average Canadian' like Jack Layton is not going to happen without a haircut and a shave for sure. Scheer stands a very good chance of winning in 2019. No 'year' is going to make folks forget the arse Trudean has made of himself and the Liberals. Justin is a one trick pony.

And if anyone outside Alberta thinks Notley even has the remotest chance in hell of being re-elected, they are dead wrong.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*



Vandave said:


> I'm so sick of Trudeau. He is easily the worst politician I have lived under in my life.


This. In spades.



Vandave said:


> The sad thing is that with a weak NDP and split Conservative vote, he'll get another 4 years.


I don't know how much of a factor a split conservative vote will be but, sadly, I don't believe Scheer is the person to win against The Dope. I've noted before, Scheer has about as much zing as a plate of wet noodles. Zero charisma. No drive. N political chops. He should be climbing down Turdeau's throat on each & every one of his many FUBAR's, making nothing but political hay, reminding Canadians at every turn what kind of special idiot The Eyebrow really is.

He's not.

That said: One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I think Notley is in the same boat, people may complain now but next year will be another matter.


Rps, Notley's gone. I called it the day she was elected & my opinion hasn't changed. I'd bet the farm on it.

She was elected in a protest vote against a CINO candiate who was arrogant & dismissive of Albertan's concerns. He's no longer a factor.

Kenney's in.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s Snake Oil Sales Pitch



> He’s facing four, soon to be five, premiers opposed to his carbon tax plan. So what is he doing?
> 
> He’s changing the language and trying to have you buy his bafflegab.


Baffle-what? Bafflegab?! Is that the politically correct term for Liberal Bull$h!t?


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Don't have a reliable test of impairment. Don't know how much pot makes you impaired. Don't have a clew how to run a business.

But, by all means, please, legalize & sell the stuff!

One Joint, Two Joints, Three Joints More!



> We are about to get to the big day when pot is legal and the Justice Minister is saying she can’t say how much is too much for pot impaired driving.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Trudeau’s Snake Oil Sales Pitch
> 
> 
> 
> Baffle-what? Bafflegab?! Is that the politically correct term for Liberal Bull$h!t?


If the idiot goes through with this plan to tax each province and then refund the money to them, I would use it to lower the taxes on all fossil fuels.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> If the idiot goes through with this plan to tax each province and then refund the money to them, I would use it to lower the taxes on all fossil fuels.


He's painting himself into a corner. If he truly continues to pursue this, even milksop Scheer stands a chance against him.

One Term Juthdin!


----------



## Claviceps

I think were still waiting on the senate reform.


----------



## SINC

*Climate-change measures not working? Blame the activists*



> The latest climate report came out the other day, showing what a crap job we’re doing of saving the planet.
> 
> According to the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), we might as well have stayed home and burned coal or wood fires for the past three decades for all the good it’s done to avert global warming. The findings inspired all the usual cataclysmic headlines — “bombshell” report, “climate disaster,” “environmental catastrophe.”
> 
> “The report shows that we only have the slimmest of opportunities remaining to avoid unthinkable damage to the climate system that supports life as we know it,” advised Amjad Abdulla, an IPCC board member.
> 
> We only have the slimmest of opportunities remaining to avoid unthinkable damage
> 
> Twenty-five years after the Rio summit, 20 years after the Kyoto accord, despite relentless haranguing from governments, academics, experts, activists and sages of all size, shape and colour, we’re still going straight to hell in a handbasket, climate-wise. We won’t reach any of the targets we’re supposed to be committed to, and even if we did, it wouldn’t be enough. Hitting the target increase of 1.5 degrees C would demand “rapid, far-reaching and unprecedented” change in just about very facet of daily life. Meeting the goals set at the big Paris confab in 2015 wouldn’t do the trick even if they’re jacked up after 2030.
> 
> So there you go. We’ve failed, or are well on the road to failing. Might as well prepare to reap the whirlwind. Stack some sandbags around the house, stock up on canned goods, nail down anything that could be carried away in a wind storm.


More at the link.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ke...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1539189932


----------



## Rps

I like to think of myself as an average guy....not the sharpest tool in the shed but no the dullest either. While I agree with the concept of climate change the thing I can't get my head around is how governments price carbon....the great evil it seems. From my readings carbon pricing is based on the "damage cost" that climate change will exert on us.....hmmmmmm how does one price that? And that is the reason governments fail with their "me too" Paris Accord or what ever else they create to extort money from us.

The TRUE SOLUTION is to efficiently invest in technologies that will reduce GHG harm. From my perspective taxing people into submission with out some form of substitution is a scam. We have all these clever people in universities, colleges, and startups....surely seed money can be funnelled their way to develop alternatives. I'm not talking about the Ontario green scam under Dalton McG, but real technology that can be commercially exported to do good in the world. To be sure the day we have a true substitute is the day a plane load of politicians get aboard an electric powered plane........yeah I know we"ll have to wait a long long time.


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> To be sure the day we have a true substitute is the day a plane load of politicians get aboard an electric powered plane........yeah I know we"ll have to wait a long long time.


If we don't care whether the plane arrives safely then the timeline could be greatly reduced. Given that we are talking about a planeload of politicians, I would say if the plane crashes, there would be no loss and probably a great gain for society.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I like to think of myself as an average guy....not the sharpest tool in the shed but no the dullest either. While I agree with the concept of climate change the thing I can't get my head around is how governments price carbon....the great evil it seems. From my readings carbon pricing is based on the "damage cost" that climate change will exert on us.....hmmmmmm how does one price that? And that is the reason governments fail with their "me too" Paris Accord or what ever else they create to extort money from us.
> 
> The TRUE SOLUTION is to efficiently invest in technologies that will reduce GHG harm. From my perspective taxing people into submission with out some form of substitution is a scam. We have all these clever people in universities, colleges, and startups....surely seed money can be funnelled their way to develop alternatives. I'm not talking about the Ontario green scam under Dalton McG, but real technology that can be commercially exported to do good in the world. To be sure the day we have a true substitute is the day a plane load of politicians get aboard an electric powered plane........yeah I know we"ll have to wait a long long time.


There is no objective "price" for CO2--it's arbitrary. That's why all of the carbon markets have failed so far.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> The TRUE SOLUTION is to efficiently invest in technologies that will reduce GHG harm.


That's making the assumption that such as thing as _GHG harm_ actually exists. There is little to no evidence supporting such conjecture. Period.

This planet has not only survived _thousands_ of PPM of atmospheric CO2 concentration, but GAST (global average surface temperatures) >10°C higher than what we currently are experiencing. In addition, the ancestors of _all_ calcareous shelled fauna on this planet, past & present, evolved at that time. So much for the premise of ocean acidification dissolving calcium carbonate shells.

If those conditions didn't turn this planet into some warmist Faustian hell, why are we worried about tenths of a degree of warming (coming on the heels of a global minimum, mind you) and ~400PPM atmospheric CO2 concentration?

Scientifically, the doomsdayers are FOS.

As noted by The International Pack of Climate Crooks back in the 90's, this is all about the redistribution of wealth from first to third world countries. Plus, and glossed over by all warmists, political control over the masses.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> From my readings carbon pricing is based on the "damage cost" that climate change will exert on us.....hmmmmmm how does one price that?





> From my perspective taxing people into submission with out some form of substitution is a scam.


The price should be implemented using a carbon tax with revenues being offset by cuts in existing taxes. Many governments do the first part and skip the second part for the usual reason...an excuse to grow spending.

Setting the tax rate itself involves a great deal of subjectivity, beyond the usual amount involved in a cost-benefit analysis. But, then again, our current tax rates are set to mostly cover spending, much of which is justified with far less. So it's more the second point from above that matters (ie. excuse to grow total spending).


----------



## macintosh doctor

it had me laughing for a good 5 mins. then yearning that it actually happens.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Are Justin’s Jihadis coming home to Canada?



> A Canadian, is a Canadian, is a Canadian. It’s one of Justin Trudeau’s mantras but I’m not sure how much he will want to wear that now that reports out that Trudeau’s government has a deal to take back more ISIS fighters.
> 
> According to _The Guardian_, the feds are set to take back 11 Canadians currently held by Kurdish forces in northern Syria. Among those said to be part of the deal is Jack Letts, a British born and raised man who left for Syria and to join ISIS in 2014.
> 
> Letts visited Canada on vacation with his Canadian father but has tenuous links to the country. That isn’t stopping Canada from negotiating to bring him back says _The Guardian_.


Nice.

Don't forget your chequebook, Juthdin...

I hope they find a nice place to live right next door to The Dope.


----------



## SINC

Rex nails it again. 

Rex Murphy: The UN climate-change panel that cried wolf too often

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/re...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1539375355


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Canada circa 2018

The comments are freaking hilarious. As noted therein, where's the spliff?

Bet Freddie & my Nazi-calling bud, Priapus, have already got theirs ordered!


----------



## 18m2

*Liberal love-in?*

Results of an Angus Reid poll describes how the big 3 parties are viewed in anticipation of the upcoming federal election. Sheer needs to quit cutting bait and get fishing.

https://mailchi.mp/angusreid/libera...-ndp-bases-feel-for-scheer-singh?e=15593e59b1


----------



## wonderings

18m2 said:


> Results of an Angus Reid poll describes how the big 3 parties are viewed in anticipation of the upcoming federal election. Sheer needs to quit cutting bait and get fishing.
> 
> https://mailchi.mp/angusreid/libera...-ndp-bases-feel-for-scheer-singh?e=15593e59b1


Can you really get an accurate idea of how the country is doing when asking only 1500 people? Some places it was around 350 people polled. I am no expert but that seems incredibly small to base an idea of how 30+ million people feel about the government.


----------



## SINC

*Conservative majority if federal election held today: Poll*



> A new Forum poll says the federal Conservatives would win a majority government if an election were held today.
> 
> Some 1,226 Canadian voters were asked for whom they’d vote if an election were being held immediately. From that sample, the Conservative party would allegedly win support from 41% while the Liberals would take only 32% of the vote.
> 
> Another 15% would vote NDP, with 7% voting for the Green Party, and 4% would cast a vote for the BQ.
> 
> Statistically, nearly half of those more likely to vote Conservative are middle-aged (35 to 54), richer (45%) males (49%) predominantly from Alberta (69%.)
> 
> Those likely to vote Liberal are older (54+), 34% female, wealthiest (40%) and living in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Atlantic Canada or Quebec (all around 34%)
> 
> According to this poll, If the election were held today, the projected results would see a Tory majority with 184 seats.
> 
> The Liberals would serve as opposition with 113 seats, and the NDP would serve as third party with 33 seats.
> 
> The BQ would win seven seats, while the Green Party would win one.


https://torontosun.com/news/national/tory-majority-if-federal-election-held-today-poll-says


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

Strange post coming from an educated adult who should be very aware the gentleman pictured above does not exist which defeats the entire meme.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Strange post coming from an educated adult who should be very aware the gentleman pictured above does not exist which defeats the entire meme.




Typical response from a cranky old fart who has no sense of humour.


----------



## SINC

Yep, and he nailed it! :clap:

*White House official says colleague called Trudeau 'that little punk kid running Canada': report*

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/parl...-kid-running-canada-report/ar-BBOzRec?ocid=sf


----------



## SINC

I can hardly wait for this idiot to be removed!

*Death knell beginning to toll for Trudeau Liberals*

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1539943635


----------



## SINC

:lmao::lmao:

*India cracks down on CRA scams after Canada threatens to send PM back for another official visit*

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/1...s-to-send-pm-back-for-another-official-visit/


----------



## SINC

Well, well, I've been thinking this for a year. Finally someone had the cajones to say it out loud. 

*'She's way out of her league': Steel exec slams Freeland's handling of tariff fight*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/steel-tariff-zekelman-freeland-1.4869440


----------



## SINC

And now more. 

*Canadian steelworkers were 'sacrificed' to make new trade deal, union says*


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/steel-tariff-zekelman-freeland-1.4869440


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

I hope not. They need to slash the services.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I hope not. They need to slash the services.




Uh huh. And why do they need to slash services? Because you have a bit of a sadistic steak in you?


----------



## Macfury

People are paying for services they don't want and the current government is running a massive deficit because these services are unaffordable. That's why the UPC is going to cancel them.

Though I think I might like a nice sadistic steak hot of the grille this evening. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh huh. And why do they need to slash services? Because you have a bit of a sadistic steak in you?


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh huh. And why do they need to slash services? Because you have a bit of a sadistic steak in you?


I betcha use sarcastic sauce on that sadistic steak, do ya?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> People are paying for services they don't want and the current government is running a massive deficit because these services are unaffordable. That's why the UPC is going to cancel them.
> 
> 
> 
> Though I think I might like a nice sadistic steak hot of the grille this evening.




And which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## Macfury

Let's just say that you would prefer the UCP to my plan. But I think they'll make a good start.



Freddie_Biff said:


> And which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## FeXL

Freddie, I have a question for ya.

With all the money Red Rachel has pissed away in the last 3-1/2 years, with the huge debt & deficit she has amassed over the same period of time...

Exactly what benefits have you &/or your family personally experienced? What have you received for your tax dollars? 

Be specific.

Here's a few thoughts to get the mental machinations moving:
1) Have you personally had a raise?
2) Have you seen a reduction in wait times at the hospital?
3) Have you seen a reduction in your overall provincial tax load?
4) Has the price of fuel dropped?
5) Has the price of a hunting or fishing license fallen?
6) Has the provincial infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc.) been built &/or improved at a rate faster than before the EnDeePee got elected?
7) Have school class sizes dropped?
8) Have provincial math PAT marks improved?
9) Have you seen a reduction in the cost of your utilities (electricity, natural gas) bill?
10) Have provincial level gov't services improved?

As with all of my pointed questions to you, I don't expect an answer. Therefore, I'll furnish my own replies: a resounding NO! to the second 10 and a big, fat, sweet FA to the first.

This begs the next question: then where TF did all that money go?

As well as the last: What services _couldn't_ be significantly cut?



Freddie_Biff said:


> And which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Freddie, I have a question for ya...



You didn’t answer my question. Which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Let's just say that you would prefer the UCP to my plan. But I think they'll make a good start.




Let’s just say you failed to answer the question. Which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## FeXL

You didn't ask me that question...



Freddie_Biff said:


> You didn’t answer my question. Which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## Macfury

For starters:

* Reduction of all government budgets by 1% for each of five years.
* Most of the administration in Education and Alberta Health Services.
* Gold-plated salaries and benefits of all public employees. Must be returned to private level in increments.
* All staff and programs related to so-called "climate change."
* All "green" energy programs.
* Advanced Education should be cut and rolled into existing ministry
* Provincial Transit Engagement
* Advisory Council on Alberta-Ukraine Relations
* Agriculture Financial Services Corporation
* Alberta Agricultural Products Marketing Council
* Alberta Apprenticeship and Industry Training Board
* All programs supporting any industry.
* Elective surgeries
* Most day care subsidies



Freddie_Biff said:


> Let’s just say you failed to answer the question. Which services do you see as expendable?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> You didn't ask me that question...




Yet that was the question you pathetically attempted to respond to.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> For starters:
> 
> 
> 
> * Reduction of all government budgets by 1% for each of five years.
> 
> * Most of the administration in Education and Alberta Health Services.
> 
> * Gold-plated salaries and benefits of all public employees. Must be returned to private level in increments.
> 
> * All staff and programs related to so-called "climate change."
> 
> * All "green" energy programs.
> 
> * Advanced Education should be cut and rolled into existing ministry
> 
> * Provincial Transit Engagement
> 
> * Advisory Council on Alberta-Ukraine Relations
> 
> * Agriculture Financial Services Corporation
> 
> * Alberta Agricultural Products Marketing Council
> 
> * Alberta Apprenticeship and Industry Training Board
> 
> * All programs supporting any industry.
> 
> * Elective surgeries
> 
> * Most day care subsidies




And why do you see these as expendable?


----------



## Macfury

Why do you see them as "not expendable"?

The best way to describe the influence of government is to say that the government creates prosperity, like a tick creates blood.



Freddie_Biff said:


> And why do you see these as expendable?


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> For starters:
> 
> * Reduction of all government budgets by 1% for each of five years.
> * Most of the administration in Education and Alberta Health Services.
> * Gold-plated salaries and benefits of all public employees. Must be returned to private level in increments.
> * All staff and programs related to so-called "climate change."
> * All "green" energy programs.
> * Advanced Education should be cut and rolled into existing ministry
> * Provincial Transit Engagement
> * Advisory Council on Alberta-Ukraine Relations
> * Agriculture Financial Services Corporation
> * Alberta Agricultural Products Marketing Council
> * Alberta Apprenticeship and Industry Training Board
> * All programs supporting any industry.
> * Elective surgeries
> * Most day care subsidies


Thanks for sharing details.The first one is the big item. Are the rest incremental to that goal, or are they examples of how that goal can be met?

I would go for a nominal spending cap for one full term, but allow some ministries, such as health, to increase while others are cut more deeply.


----------



## FeXL

You posed a question to MF. I posed a question to you. I made zero attempt to answer yours to MF. You scream blue murder when people do that.

The only thing pathetic on these boards is your weak-assed attempt to deflect from actually answering my question. As always...

Don't bother responding. I already gave the answer: despite 10's of billions of dollars of Red Rachel's debt & deficit, the average Albertan is no better off now than they were 3-1/2 years ago. With the carbon tax, most will be worse off. Cash just p!$$ed away. May as well have burned it to keep our homes warm and our vehicles running.

And, _and_, now we have to pay off all that debt. With our tax dollars. And our children's tax dollars. And our grandchildren's tax dollars.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yet that was the question you pathetically attempted to respond to.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> For starters:
> 
> * Reduction of all government budgets by 1% for each of five years.
> * Most of the administration in Education and Alberta Health Services.
> * Gold-plated salaries and benefits of all public employees. Must be returned to private level in increments.
> * All staff and programs related to so-called "climate change."
> * All "green" energy programs.
> * Advanced Education should be cut and rolled into existing ministry
> * Provincial Transit Engagement
> * Advisory Council on Alberta-Ukraine Relations
> * Agriculture Financial Services Corporation
> * Alberta Agricultural Products Marketing Council
> * Alberta Apprenticeship and Industry Training Board
> * All programs supporting any industry.
> * Elective surgeries
> * Most day care subsidies


Interesting. I agree with everything on your list, with two quibbles.

1. As far as budget cuts is concerned, 2% minimum for each of 10 years, with an independent review at 5 years & ten years for the possibility of additional cuts.
2. As far as Alberta Apprenticeship, what's your thinking? This is one of the few gov't programs I see as actually having some value.

I'd also add an additional line item: Every new gov't hire under Red Rachel is laid off, effective immediately.

Alright. That's a start. Kenney, there's your platform.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> As far as Alberta Apprenticeship, what's your thinking? This is one of the few gov't programs I see as actually having some value.


It has some value because the affected industries are not sufficiently stepping up to the plate themselves. I see the program as an industry subsidy, not an educational program.

If I can't get enough IT workers, or Tim Horton's counter staff, there is no apprenticeship program that will help, so I also see the program's existence as government choosing to favour one type of industry over another. Why should the government pay to train a construction worker for one company and not a barber for another?


----------



## Macfury

Incremental. 



Beej said:


> Thanks for sharing details.The first one is the big item. Are the rest incremental to that goal, or are they examples of how that goal can be met?
> 
> I would go for a nominal spending cap for one full term, but allow some ministries, such as health, to increase while others are cut more deeply.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Why do you see them as "not expendable"?
> 
> 
> 
> The best way to describe the influence of government is to say that the government creates prosperity, like a tick creates blood.




Funny.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> You posed a question to MF. I posed a question to you. I made zero attempt to answer yours to MF. You scream blue murder when people do that.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing pathetic on these boards is your weak-assed attempt to deflect from actually answering my question. As always...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't bother responding. I already gave the answer: despite 10's of billions of dollars of Red Rachel's debt & deficit, the average Albertan is no better off now than they were 3-1/2 years ago. With the carbon tax, most will be worse off. Cash just p!$$ed away. May as well have burned it to keep our homes warm and our vehicles running.
> 
> 
> 
> And, _and_, now we have to pay off all that debt. With our tax dollars. And our children's tax dollars. And our grandchildren's tax dollars.




Your childish rants are predictable.


----------



## FeXL

Childish? <snort> Go ahead, call it what you want. That's what you always do when when you got nuttin'. It's the Prog way.

Out of the two of us, I'm the only one that presented any facts.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Your childish rants are predictable.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, that'd be saweet! I'd have to break out an even more expensive bottle of beer & an even bigger cigar for that one.

One year until Justin Trudeau is unemployed



> In the last week four polls have shown Scheer and the Conservatives beating Trudeau and the Liberals.


Yeah, a year is a long damn time in politics, but still...

Comments worth a read:



> Vote for Snookums! The West will finally become so pissed that they WILL LEAVE! First Alberta and then Sask. – that will finally kill confederation. Without the West there is no Canada.
> The maritimes? I couldn’t care any less, purely and simply because they are too stupid to care. They line up for their entitlements every election.
> BC? Same damn story. The lower mainland is already a foreign country given the environ-mental-ists, the NDPs, the ‘indigenous’, (I love the term – ‘indigenous’! Hey Kennewick guy – where are you? Oh yeah…), the Chinese ‘visitors/temporaries’ (yeah, with cash, and lots of it!). They can with the help of the visitors, define their own future. You think a pipeline can be shut down because of a few indians, oops, sorry – indigenous? Try that with China and see how it works for you.
> Nope! I hear a faint flushing sound. Started earlier today. It will probably reach a crescendo in about 365 days


One Term Juthdin!!! :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Even more predictable is any substantive post from you on the subject we were discussing.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Your childish rants are predictable.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Childish? <snort> Go ahead, call it what you want. That's what you always do when when you got nuttin'. It's the Prog way.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of the two of us, I'm the only one that presented any facts.




Yes, you’re so smart. Give yourself a big pat on the back.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Even more predictable is any substantive post from you on the subject we were discussing.




No offense, but I don’t find this discussion all that interesting. Thank you for putting in some effort though.


----------



## Macfury

The man who has no ideas is indistinguishable from the man who presents none.



Freddie_Biff said:


> No offense, but I don’t find this discussion all that interesting. Thank you for putting in some effort though.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The man who has no ideas is indistinguishable from the man who presents none.




Oh I have ideas. Just not enough time to explore them.


----------



## FeXL

"Smart" has nothing to do with it, Freddie.

Possessing the ability to formulate a cogent argument and subsequently defend it with facts: that is _everything_.

Or, one could be like you. Spew out some canned NPC Prog talking point drivel then, when called out on it, claim feigned indifference.

I know you're smarter than I am, Freddie. I could never do that. You go, girl!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yes, you’re so smart. Give yourself a big pat on the back.


----------



## Macfury

Exactly what I was thinking, FeXL. When you peel off the meme, there's nothing behind it.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Exactly what I was thinking, FeXL. When you peel off the meme, there's nothing behind it.


Wait for the hue & cry in 3, 2...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

How much Trudeau's carbon tax will cost you



> Hold onto your wallet because Justin Trudeau is coming to raid it.


Damn. Even more?



> A report out this week on the cancellation of Ontario’s cap-and-trade system revealed the feds will be looking for more of your cash over the next few years, all thanks to the carbon tax.
> 
> Sorry, that should say “price on pollution,” which is the latest catchphrase introduced by the Trudeau Liberals to obscure reality.
> 
> The Liberals don’t want the term carbon tax being used but rest assured, that is what it will be.


When you control the language...

More:



> In the FAO report, the typical household isn’t determined by household size but energy usage. They calculate 2,000 litres of gasoline, electricity consumption of 9 MWh, natural gas consumption of 2,200 cubic metres.
> 
> Let’s put that in terms we can all understand.
> 
> *That means an increase of 11.1 cents per litre in the price of gas and 9.8 cents per cubic metre on natural gas.*


Further:



> This past week the Liberals were praising a United Nations report that called for a much larger, and global, carbon tax.
> 
> “The UN report was clear that we are the first generation to feel the impacts of climate change, and we are the last generation to be able to act,” Catherine McKenna, Trudeau’s environment minister, told the House of Commons.
> 
> This report called for a carbon tax as high as $5,500 per ton by 2030.
> 
> That would mean adding about $17 a litre in new taxes for gasoline. That’s before you pay for the gas or account for the current taxes.
> 
> *Can you imagine paying $18.50 a litre by 2030?*


All bold mine.

Good old Climate Barbie. Regurgitating the narrative like a good little Prog sheep.

One Term Juthdin!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau wants terrorism offences reduced to maximum six months of jail time



> Today is October 22, the four year anniversary of the terrorist attack on Parliament Hill.
> 
> ...
> 
> In the House of Commons today MPs stood and memorialized the attack on Parliament Hill and the attack two days earlier in St. Jean-sur-Richlieu that killed Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau even announced he and his Liberal government would support a Conservative motion calling for a plan, within 45 days, to bring Canadian ISIS fighters to justice.
> 
> It will be a nice bit of theatre for the Liberals to do this because even as they announced their support for the motion they continue to support reduced sentences for terrorism offences.
> 
> Bill C-75, currently before the House of Commons, calls for a whole raft of crimes to be treated under summary conviction.
> 
> *That includes terrorism offences.*
> 
> ...
> 
> *Under Trudeau’s Bill C-75, that could be reduced to a maximum of six months in prison.*


M'bold.

It's nice to see that The Dope continues along this same path. If he does so for the next 12 month or so, he will have managed to p!$$ off enough Canadians to lose the election.

One Term Juthdin!!! :clap:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> "Smart" has nothing to do with it, Freddie.
> 
> 
> 
> Possessing the ability to formulate a cogent argument and subsequently defend it with facts: that is _everything_.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, one could be like you. Spew out some canned NPC Prog talking point drivel then, when called out on it, claim feigned indifference.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you're smarter than I am, Freddie. I could never do that. You go, girl!




You really seem to have a dislike for progressive thinkers, don’t you?


----------



## Macfury

Progressive thinkers? Those are two words you don't typically see one after the other!



Freddie_Biff said:


> You really seem to have a dislike for progressive thinkers, don’t you?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Progressive thinkers? Those are two words you don't typically see one after the other!




That’s quite the personal bias you have there. Stereotype much?


----------



## SINC

When is enough, enough?

*New Brunswick village faces backlash after council raises ’straight flag’*

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/nat...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1540228184


----------



## Macfury

No, not much.



Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s quite the personal bias you have there. Stereotype much?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> No, not much.




But you do stereotype progressive minded people as non-thinkers though.


----------



## Macfury

The progressive-minded, left to their own devices, turned the wealthy Venezuela into a third-world disaster. That's not "stereotyping" progressives. It's recognizing the misery they bring to the world.



Freddie_Biff said:


> But you do stereotype progressive minded people as non-thinkers though.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> The progressive-minded, left to their own devices, turned the wealthy Venezuela into a third-world disaster. That's not "stereotyping" progressives. It's recognizing the misery they bring to the world.



No, it’s stereotyping and it’s prejudice, because you are painting all progressive minded people with the same brush. That would be as ignorant as suggesting that all conservatives are as simple minded and self-interested as Donald Trump is. You’re overstating the case.


----------



## FeXL

Awrite, just to ensure we're on the same page, define "progressive thinkers".



Freddie_Biff said:


> You really seem to have a dislike for progressive thinkers, don’t you?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Awrite, just to ensure we're on the same page, define "progressive thinkers".



One who thinks along progressive lines, as opposed to one who thinks along more conservative lines.


----------



## FeXL

Oh, you mean <spit> Progs!

Hell's bells, Freddie! I have a whole thread dedicated to the lunacy of so-called _progressive thinkers_. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of posts showcasing Prog hypocrisy, ideology, double standards, groupthink, basic stupidity, wilful ignorance, malice, hate, violence, inability to formulate a cogent argument and subsequently defend it with facts, socialism, communism, Marxism, union supporters, NPC's (and this is a short list). If none of those posts give you pause, Freddie, you just might be one. And, if you haven't read them, then you are definitely one!

That's why I dislike Progs. That said, when they're not being violent, they can be a never-ending source of entertainment. :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> One who thinks along progressive lines, as opposed to one who thinks along more conservative lines.


----------



## Macfury

Donald Trump is a conservative? Last time you said he was a fascist. This is one of the problems with progressives. There's no cogent thought process at work.



Freddie_Biff said:


> No, it’s stereotyping and it’s prejudice, because you are painting all progressive minded people with the same brush. That would be as ignorant as suggesting that all conservatives are as simple minded and self-interested as Donald Trump is. You’re overstating the case.


----------



## Macfury

Enjoying this CUPW strike. They couldn't have chosen a better way to demonstrate that having mail delivered three days a week is perfectly adequate and should be adopted by Canada Post as the regular schedule. 

One of the demands is that Canada Post consider allowing Canada Post outlets to offer banking services and deliver groceries. Can you imagine if you began to count on either of those two services during the next strike?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Enjoying this CUPW strike. They couldn't have chosen a better way to demonstrate that having mail delivered three days a week is perfectly adequate and should be adopted by Canada Post as the regular schedule.
> 
> One of the demands is that Canada Post consider allowing Canada Post outlets to offer banking services and deliver groceries. Can you imagine if you began to count on either of those two services during the next strike?


There's a CUPW strike? Kewl.

How to convince Canadians to use even less of their slow, over-priced "service".


----------



## 18m2

Who cares about the rotating strike?

We have a PO box down the road which I initially thought was going to be a problem when we moved here but its not. We seem to go a couple of times a week to pick up the flyers, the community newspaper and occasionally a piece of mail. 

Most mail comes electronically.


----------



## Macfury

Canada Post would have been out of business long go if it wasn't for a federal law that prevents competitors from delivering letter mail at LESS THAN THREE TIMES the cost of a postage stamp.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Liberals write off $6.3 billion in loans, including $2.6 billion to automaker



> The federal government says it won't collect $6.3 billion in loans, a figure fuelled by the write off of a nearly decade-old automaker bailout that the Liberals say had no hopes of being recouped.
> 
> The Liberals have written off some $3 billion in loans in each of the past two years, but they jumped past that mark in fiscal year 2017-2018.
> 
> Key to the jump was a $2.6 billion writeoff that was part of a financing package the previous Conservative government made in 2009 to keep automaker Chrysler afloat and save an estimated 52,000 Canadian jobs during the recession.


First of all, just one more reason why the loans to automakers should never have been given.

Second, curious that Alberta lost in the neighbourhood of 100,000 jobs in the petroleum industry and, nada.

Third, exactly where does one sign up for $2.6 billion in free money? PM me the details.

Fourth, for 10%, I'll go collect Chrysler's loan myself... 

Fifth, all jokes aside, it should be pretty easy for the Feds to tighten a few screws here & there to get our money back. If the bastards can impose a nation-wide carbon tax, a localized Chrysler automobile tax would be a cakewalk.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Liberals write off $6.3 billion in loans, including $2.6 billion to automaker
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, just one more reason why the loans to automakers should never have been given.
> 
> Second, curious that Alberta lost in the neighbourhood of 100,000 jobs in the petroleum industry and, nada.
> 
> Third, exactly where does one sign up for $2.6 billion in free money? PM me the details.
> 
> Fourth, for 10%, I'll go collect Chrysler's loan myself...
> 
> Fifth, all jokes aside, it should be pretty easy for the Feds to tighten a few screws here & there to get our money back. If the bastards can impose a nation-wide carbon tax, a localized Chrysler automobile tax would be a cakewalk.


Loans that were not in default. Mind boggling.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Loans that were not in default. Mind boggling.


Hey, it's the progressive way! There's an election looming, doncha know...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Not that any non-progressive thinker needs this advice...

Don't buy Trudeau's carbon tax scam!



> Justin Trudeau offered up details of his “price on pollution” and offered “climate incentives” to Canadian families in an announcement Tuesday filled more with euphemisms than details.
> 
> Let’s be clear, the PM went to the backyard of Ontario Premier Doug Ford to announce a carbon tax and then promise rebates.
> 
> But only to certain provinces, so far.
> 
> If you live in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan or New Brunswick then Justin Trudeau wants you to know that despite the cost of everything going up, you will get more money back than you will pay.
> 
> Directly.
> 
> That was a key word Trudeau emphasized as he made the announcement.
> 
> “Eight in 10 Ontario families will get back more than they pay, directly,” Trudeau said.
> 
> That is key.
> 
> The feds won’t be giving citizens a rebate based on the price of pretty much everything getting more expensive, just on what you pay directly.
> 
> Higher gas prices, home heating, etc.
> 
> Higher grocery or food prices? You are on your own.
> 
> Yet the bureaucrats giving reporters a technical briefing on the new plan promised the new carbon tax would be revenue neutral.
> 
> *Do you believe claims like that?*


M'bold.

<cough>Bull$h!t<cough>

Nope.

Related:

How Green Is Justin’s Footprint?



> Three flights in one day to announce his carbon tax plan, lecture little people about using less fossil fuels and collect money from wealthy donors.


From the comments:



> The cost of everything and I mean everything that consumers need starting with food, clothing, and shelter will go up in price. From toothpaste, to undies, to milk, bread, to property taxes, and everything in between will go up in price.
> 
> Wage increases will not cover all the cost increases and will no doubt exacerbate the carbon tax fall out.
> 
> The net result will be a drastic decrease in the standard of living of all except for those who are more equal than others. But then, this is the plan as we know from those who peddled this massive fraud to begin with. Trudeau is just the dumbbell stooge that is implementing the fraud in Canada.
> 
> All this on top of Trudeau’s successful attempt to totally destroy western Canada’s energy resource industry.
> 
> My but this country is becoming a disgusting place.


Yeppers.


----------



## SINC

*Voting reform process 'dishonest, misleading and wide open to down-the-road manipulation'*

"Now we have a new proposal for electoral change, but with a huge difference. This one is designed by partisan politicians for their benefit, however high-sounding their words."



> GORDON GIBSON
> 
> I was born in B.C. a bit more than 81 years ago and have spent most of my life here. It has been a great privilege to live in this province and, like many, I have done what I could to give back.
> 
> My method was via politics. I ran five times, elected twice as an MLA. I was executive assistant to Pierre Trudeau and then leader of the B.C. Liberal Party in the 1970s. I contested that position again in the 1990s, losing to Gordon Campbell. I have since been non-partisan.
> 
> In the last election, the record will show that I gave $2,000 to the campaign of NDP MLA Carole James.
> 
> Over that time I have learned that there are two parts to politics. Most of the year-to-year decisions belong to our elected representatives, including taxation and spending. That is fine.
> 
> However some basic things — our rights and freedoms — do not belong to politicians. Central to our rights and freedoms is our electoral system by which we select our representatives.
> 
> Politicians are hopelessly conflicted and naturally will seek personal advantage in any change. But democratic elections belong to us, and if the rules are to be changed, they should be changed by us.
> 
> In 2002, I was tasked by the B.C. government to design the Citizens’ Assembly on Electoral Reform. That process was unanimously adopted by the B.C. Legislature. It has been studied and copied around the world as the gold standard for making such important changes.
> 
> All 160 members of that assembly studied, consulted and deliberated for a year and proposed a precise system (it was called BC-STV) that was put to a referendum vote. That is the way to do it: citizen design, citizen approval. Almost 58 per cent of British Columbians voted in favour. That was not enough for the government of the day, though none of its members could even dream of such support personally. So the initiative support dwindled and died.
> 
> Now we have a new proposal for electoral change, but with a huge difference. This one is designed by partisan politicians for their benefit, however high-sounding their words.
> 
> Anyone who follows sports knows the importance of detailed rules. Even apparently tiny ones can tilt the playing field and rig the game. To all but the closest students of the game the tricks are invisible, but they determine who wins.
> 
> That is the basic problem of the current referendum on electoral change. Specific details like community representation, what bosses will choose party list MLAs, how many votes you will have and how counted — these essentials are hidden, to be decided only after the referendum by conflicted politicians. But that is too much of a mandate to give to a saint, let alone your average MLA.
> 
> In short, this process is dishonest, misleading and wide open to down-the-road manipulation.
> 
> What MLAs who support this referendum are advocating is an erosion of our rights and freedoms, as the politicians write their own employment contracts.
> 
> We know the right citizen process in B.C. and have used it in the past. That is the honest way to consider the respectable but very complex question of electoral change. Our current government is following a process that is wrong. I say, for shame.
> 
> On this self-serving and deceitful question, “No” is the vote for democracy.


* Gordon Gibson was leader of the B.C. Liberal Party from 1975 to 1979. He was inducted into the Order of B.C. in 2008.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/op...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1540516638


----------



## CubaMark

_Good to see a federal politician with an actual plan. Remind me again hat Scheer and his lot are saying about the Saudi deal?_

*Charlie Angus To Liberals: Tell Saudi Crown Prince 'We Don't Apologize To Tyrants'*

An NDP MP has offered a "simple plan" for the federal government to scrap a controversial $15-billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia and protect Canadian jobs.

On Friday, Charlie Angus was the latest New Democrat to rise in the House of Commons to call on Liberals to cancel the contract, noting Germany has frozen arms deals with the kingdom.

"There is no way this government can justify this arms deal to the House of Sauds," Angus said.

* * *​
But he also proposed an idea to soften the blow for workers at London, Ont.'s General Dynamics Land Systems-Canada, the company building light armoured vehicles (LAVs) for Saudi Arabia.

"Repurpose the plant in London to build military vehicles for our troops who need the upgrades," Angus said.

The NDP MP also urged Canada to invoke the Magnitsky Act. The law allows the government to freeze the Canadian assets of foreign actors who violate human rights, such as those responsible for the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

* * *​
"As for the Saudi Crown prince, will the government do the right thing and tell him that we don't apologize to tyrants and he can go stuff his objections?" Angus asked.

Pamela Goldsmith-Jones, the Liberal parliamentary secretary for foreign affairs, did not weigh in on the feasibility of Angus' proposal.

"In the Jamal Khashoggi affair, we demand that Canadian arms exports are used in a way that respects human rights," she said, reading from a prepared statement.

(HuffPo)​


----------



## Macfury

Sure, but why play nice with Cuba and China then-both terrible human rights violators?



CubaMark said:


> _Good to see a federal politician with an actual plan. Remind me again hat Scheer and his lot are saying about the Saudi deal?_


----------



## FeXL

I don't know (nor do I care) what milksop, Liberal lite Scheer is saying about this, but there is no way in hell The Dope will call for Saudi trade sanctions because eastern refineries depend on tankered Saudi oil.

Cut SA crude off, that means he'd have to get a pipeline going from Alberta. Ain't happening.



CubaMark said:


> Good to see a federal politician with an actual plan. Remind me again hat Scheer and his lot are saying about the Saudi deal?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Sure, but why play nice with Cuba and China then-both terrible human rights violators?


----------



## Macfury

It's an important question, CM. No reason to select your "bad country of the week" for special retribution because it happens to be in the news. Why not describe a policy that you would like Canada to abide by in these matters?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s Liberals Believe We Have Responsibility To Terrorists



> Get caught for drug dealing in a foreign country and you are likely on your own but join ISIS and Trudeau will have someone reach out to bring you back to Canada because……..stuff.


Comments interesting.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Why not describe a policy that you would like Canada to abide by in these matters?


Confiscate _all_ firearms! Legislate coal-powered Mars cars for everyone! Rid the country completely of a market economy! Stop democracy! Institute _proper_ socialism, followed shortly by good, ol' fashioned communism! Raise taxes to 75% across the board & then everybody gets everything free! Free, I tell you! Make everybody TG Muslims! And don't forget Global Warming! Aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Stats Canada’s creepy data grab should scare you



> If I asked you nicely, would you had over to me all of your personal data, including your name and address, social insurance number and every single spending item, bill payment and bank deposit?
> 
> Probably not.
> 
> And chances are that most Canadians, regardless of their political leanings, would want that kind of information being handed over to a government department.
> 
> Especially not without their knowledge or consent.
> 
> Yet that is what Statistics Canada is trying to do.
> 
> They want Canada’s 9 biggest banks and credit unions to hand over everything they have on as many as 500,000 Canadians, and they don’t want the banks telling their customers.


One more reason to deal entirely in cash and trade.

Related:

Now Is The Time At SDA When We Juxtapose!



> The dictatorship.
> 
> _Here's a dystopian vision of the future: A real announcement I recorded on the Beijing-Shanghai bullet train. (I've subtitled it so you can watch in silence.) pic.twitter.com/ZoRWtdcSMy
> 
> — James O'Malley (@Psythor) October 29, 2018_​
> The admirer.
> 
> _#BREAKING: Trudeau defends Statistics Canada's request for 500,000 Canadians' banking information without their knowledge.https://t.co/xyUdeOPrvm
> 
> — Globalnews.ca (@globalnews) October 29, 2018_​


Keep on, Juthdin! Eleven more months of screw-ups like this & you'll get your walking papers.

One term Juthdin!!!


----------



## SINC

*Ignore Trudeau's carbon-tax chorus. Nobel economists aren't backing this plan*

Canada's carbon-tax plan would be dysfunctional and ineffectual, according to Nobel Laureate William Nordhaus's work

https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1540986050


----------



## SINC

The truth about Turdeau?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

Jeezuz...

Former governor general Adrienne Clarkson still bills more than $100,000 a year in expenses



> The expenses, paid through an unusual program that allows former governors general to bill for office expenses for the rest of their life, is used by other former governors general as well. But only Clarkson is regularly billing more than $100,000 annually, which means her expenses show up as a separate line item in the federal government’s public accounts.
> 
> The expenses are on top of the $1.6 million that Clarkson has collected to date as a government pension. It also does not include the $3 million in a start-up grant (plus up to $7 million over 10 years to match donations from the private sector) that was paid to establish Clarkson’s charitable organization, the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Both the pension and the start-up grant are standard for outgoing governors general.
> 
> The expense program for governors general was created in 1979 and appears to be unique among federal government positions. There is little public transparency in how the money is spent; Rideau Hall says it requires receipts and invoices, but it would not disclose what exactly is being expensed or how much other governors general are spending. Canada’s access-to-information law does not cover Rideau Hall.


It's good to be queen...


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> *Ignore Trudeau's carbon-tax chorus. Nobel economists aren't backing this plan*
> 
> Canada's carbon-tax plan would be dysfunctional and ineffectual, according to Nobel Laureate William Nordhaus's work
> 
> https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1540986050


I am hoping this will be an additional nail in the box for JT and the Liberals. I am not a climate change denier, but logic tells you that you don’t tax people on carbon then refund it.

The government constantly ignores the “balance sheet” on net carbon emission and only focuses in the income statement.....it just doesn’t work.

You can’t base your economy on fossil fuels as we do for much of the country then try to tax its use. If they truly wanted to cut down on carbon emissions then provide for substitution, patent that technology and sell it around the world. We have enough clever people here that if we focus on that we can come up with “the new oil” clean technology that is affordable. 

Stated another way, you don’t do stuff that limits job creation and investment....that is of course unless you don’t wish to be elected next time.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I am not a climate change denier...


I know a lot of people, Rps. Not a single one of which is a "climate change denier". Nor have I ever read of such an individual. Can you honestly admit to knowing someone who denies that the climate changes?


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> I know a lot of people, Rps. Not a single one of which is a "climate change denier". Nor have I ever read of such an individual. Can you honestly admit to knowing someone who denies that the climate changes?


Sadly, FeXL I do.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Sadly, FeXL I do.


Kewl...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

StatsCan has already seized reams of our private financial info



> Just before Question Period, another shocking story broke. This one again from Global, showing StatsCan has already seized reams of other private financial information.
> 
> Between October 2017 and January 2018, StatsCan demanded that credit agency TransUnion hand over the records of hundreds of thousands of Canadians. It was not aggregate data with names and identifying factors removed.
> 
> It was highly personal.
> 
> Included in the request were the names, addresses, dates of birth and social insurance numbers of hundreds of thousands of Canadians.
> 
> It also included how much you borrowed, how much you owed, were you past due on any bills and a whole host of other information.
> 
> This is what StatsCan wants to do with the banks now.


----------



## Macfury

I remember all the EhMacers braying their loud support for the patriotic duty to supply StatsCan with as much data as they asked for. The DEMANDED a long form to show their patriotism.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I remember all the EhMacers braying their loud support for the patriotic duty to supply StatsCan with as much data as they asked for. The DEMANDED a long form to show their patriotism.


Yep. I imagine they'll be lining up to give all their personal info to StatsCan now.

Curious, tho. Brian's one article noted that most people he talked to were against this invasion. Must not have interviewed any Progs...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I don't care what he calls it. He can still shove it up his backside. 

CO2 is now _pollution_. Moron...

Understanding Trudeau's convoluted carbon-tax defence



> ustin Trudeau wants you to know the carbon tax is not a carbon tax.
> 
> Unless the court rules it is a carbon tax, in which case, it is fully constitutional.
> 
> You may have noticed that Prime Minister Trudeau won’t use the term carbon tax. He doesn’t even use the term price on carbon anymore.
> 
> He wants a price on pollution.


Time to pull out that Notwithstanding Clause.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I remember all the EhMacers braying their loud support for the patriotic duty to supply StatsCan with as much data as they asked for. The DEMANDED a long form to show their patriotism.


Not all ehMacers. This one suggested if he got the long form it would be cremated.

I think that those Canadians who failed to stand up when the Harpoon offered up similar data to the IRS, of those Canadians tainted by American ties, may now be paying for their indifference.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Not all ehMacers. This one suggested if he got the long form it would be cremated.
> 
> I think that those Canadians who failed to stand up when the Harpoon offered up similar data to the IRS, of those Canadians tainted by American ties, may now be paying for their indifference.



I have never proclaimed support for a long form census. Frankly, I have better things to do. I’m not crazy about the short one either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

I remember. It was CubaMark who was really big on it.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I have never proclaimed support for a long form census. Frankly, I have better things to do. I’m not crazy about the short one either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

One Term Juthdin!!!

Canada: Shielded From the Populist Wave No Longer

Just one short quote:



> The great irony of this simmering populism is that the man heralded as the symbol of Canada’s immunity, Justin Trudeau, may end up igniting it.


Interesting read, alongside some recent Canuck history.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on that StatsCan data grab.

PM Trudeau Astonishingly Seizes 500,000 Canadians Banking Data “Without their Consent”



> Canada’s nine biggest banks and credit unions would be forced to turn over highly personal data about their customers (and not tell the customer in the process). Data includes name, address, social insurance number and every single banking transaction that person does in a year.
> 
> ...
> 
> The number would be upped to 1 million per year as from 2020.
> 
> Conservative House Leader Ms Candice Bergen questioned the policy: “With a long history of government privacy breaches, Canadians are rightly worried.”
> 
> “Why are the Liberals collecting the personal data of Canadians without telling them?”
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who was slammed in the press over the plan this weekend, defended the new policy in parliament, saying that his government would ensure that all personal information would be protected and the anonymized data will be used for statistical purposes only: “High quality and timely data are critical to ensuring that government programs remain relevant and effective for Canadians.”
> 
> ...
> 
> Ms Bergen did not think his answer was satisfactory and called on the PM to “immediately assure Canadians that this intrusion into their lives will be stopped.”
> 
> *“It was the Conservative government who chose to stop the long-form census,” Mr Trudeau answered
> 
> “What that led to was more policy based on ideology and less policy based on evidence like we are doing now. Their attacks on data and information continue.”*


First off, does this idiot ever listen to what he says?

Second, what does quitting the long form census have anything to do with stealing personal, private information without telling the people of it?

Third, it's my recollection that one of the very first things The Dope did upon entering office was reinstate the census, negating any bull$h!t excuse he may be fabricating about point the second.

Fourth, here's a quote exhibiting the stunning logic of Liberal _evidence-based_ policy:



> If you think limiting refugees based on what a tiny minority *might* do is bigoted, but banning firearms based on what a tiny minority *might* do is evidenced based policy making; you might be a Liberal.


One. Term. Juthdin.


----------



## FeXL

Woohoo!!!

(Caution: link to MotherCorpse inside)

Another One Bites The Dust



> _ Premier Brian Gallant’s minority Liberal government has been defeated in a confidence vote in the New Brunswick Legislature, setting the stage for Progressive Conservative Leader Blaine Higgs to be sworn in as premier in the coming weeks.
> 
> The house voted 25-23 for a throne speech motion amended by the PC Opposition to declare no confidence in the government._​


More:



> _ […] Higgs and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau are expected to clash over how to deal with climate change.
> 
> Higgs has said he will join with his counterparts in Ontario and Saskatchewan in rejecting Ottawa’s bid to get the provinces to impose a carbon tax on their citizens._​


----------



## FeXL

Nope. No way. Not a chance. Sharia law is _not_ being practiced, nor supported, in Western countries. Nosiree...

Canada Upholds Allah/Muhammad’s Ban on Adoption



> Many in the West were shocked to learn that, in recently ruling that criticism of Muhammad is tantamount to incitement to hatred and thus not protected free speech, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) had effectively adopted Islamic Sharia’s ban on free speech. Freedom of speech is the fundamental Western right, formerly prized and zealously guarded.
> 
> The greater shock, however, is not that the ECHR ruled in compliance with Sharia, but that many Western nations intentionally uphold Sharia stipulations that contradict one-time Western values -- even as most of their citizenry have no clue.
> 
> Take, for instance, a Canadian law which -- in accordance with Sharia -- essentially banned the adoption of children from Muslim nations.


----------



## FeXL

One for the good guys.

Injunctive Ruling



> Readers will recall that the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) filed for an injunction against PS Knight last month in order to prevent us from selling Knight’s Code. This new CSA litigation took place while both parties waited for the Federal Court of Appeals (FCA) Ruling on another, though identical, CSA litigation from March 2018.
> 
> We don’t have the FCA Ruling yet, but the Federal Court Ruled last week on CSA’s latest injunctive litigation.
> 
> And here it is…..
> 
> “The Court Orders that this motion is dismissed with costs payable to the Respondents”.
> 
> The “Respondents” is us, by the way. We won.


Woohoo!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau and the StatsCan Data Grab Will Make Us Serfs



> Free people give consent, governments in democracy act with the consent of the governed.
> 
> Trudeau thinks he is a king and wants to make us serfs.


One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s tickle trunk adventures continue



> Justin Trudeau just can’t help himself. He has to reach into the Trudeau tickle trunk to see what outfit, what prop, what action he can do to show the people that he is meeting that he is just like them.
> 
> The latest example is riding on a horse to apologize to native leaders for the execution of five Tsilhqot’in chiefs in 1864, a sixth faced the same fate a year later.
> 
> The official caption for the photo above reads:
> 
> “Prime Minister Trudeau rides a horse to the Exoneration site in the Tsilhqot’in Title Lands.”
> 
> The photo was taken by a member of Trudeau’s staff and circulated to show that as he was apologizing to these leaders that he was also, just like them.
> 
> Except he isn’t just like them.
> 
> Justin Trudeau is unrelatable to the overwhelming majority of Canadian citizens.


I wonder how many takes it took to get a photo of him actually on the back of the horse, instead of face down in the dirt... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Gueth Juthdin hathn't taken hith 30 day break yet...

One month of abstinence from cannabis improves memory in adolescents, young adults



> A Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) study finds that one month of abstaining from cannabis use resulted in measurable improvement in memory functions important for learning among adolescents and young adults who are regular cannabis users. The study published in the _Journal of Clinical Psychiatry_ is one of the first to prospectively track over time changes in cognitive function associated with halting cannabis use.


Oh, and just in case any of you out there in Progland question his age qualifications, he really is a middle-aged adolescent...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

When even the Red Star takes note...

From the self-same folks...

...who gave Omar Khadr $10,000,000...



> The federal government says it shortchanged hundreds of thousands of veterans and their survivors over seven years, and is preparing to compensate them a total of $165 million.


Related:


----------



## SINC

Yep, he's gonna get his butt kicked.


----------



## CubaMark

*Conservative MP Tony Clement resigns Commons duties over sexting scandal*










Longtime Conservative MP Tony Clement is resigning his post as his party's justice critic after admitting to sharing sexually explicit images and a video with an individual online.

"Over the last three weeks, I have shared sexually explicit images and a video of myself to someone who I believed was a consenting female recipient. The recipient was, in fact, an individual or party who targeted me for the purpose of financial extortion," Clement said in a statement.

"The RCMP are currently investigating the matter to determine the identity of the party responsible for the extortion attempt."

Clement, who has twice vied for the leadership of the federal party and served in senior cabinet positions in the former Conservative government, said in a statement late Tuesday he will be resigning his position on a number of Commons committees.

"I recognize now that I have gone down a wrong path and have exercised very poor judgment. First and foremost, I apologize to my family for the needless pain and humiliation my actions have caused," he said in the statement.

Clement is married.

"I also apologize to my colleagues and my constituents for letting them down. I am committed to seeking the help and treatment I need in my personal life to make sure this will not happen again while also continuing to discharge my duties as a Member of Parliament."

The scandal is a blow to Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer, who had tapped Clement to serve as the party's justice critic in the House — an important role, given the many changes to legislation Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould has tabled in recent months.

(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

If he were a Liberal, he'd tell the party to suck it up.


----------



## FUXL

They're always after me Lucky Charms!


----------



## Macfury

FUXL showing up after going silent while the country goes conservative province by province! No problem making fun of the Irish, eh FUXL? They're good sports about your brand of discrimination!


----------



## SINC

I like him better when he FUXLs off.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, it's my little Priapus drivin' Nazi buddy, Piggy!

Soo!!!

Hey, Piggy, here's one tailor made for you:

Trudeau Showing Respect For Taxpayers



> 631 cars bought by you to shuffle around 7 world leaders for a 2 day summit in Quebec. Now for sale at bargain prices.
> 
> Can’t make this up.


Maybe you can get rid of that coal-powered Priapus & buy yourself a real car! I jes' may put a bid in on a lightly used 'Burb myself.

More:



> After buying 154 Chevrolet Suburbans, 140 Touring-model Chrysler 300s, 109 Toyota Siennas, 88 Ford Escapes, 43 Mitsubishi Outlanders, 32 Nissan Rogues, 30 Dodge Journeys, 28 Dodge Chargers plus seven Ford Explorers just for the summit, the feds want to offload the surplus vehicles.
> 
> Those vehicles cost $23 million at the time of purchase and there is no way they will make that much back.


Sooouuuueeeeee!!!


----------



## FUXL

+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07M239n0XY&frags=pl,wn/YOUTUBE]." title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07M239n0XY&frags=pl,wn/YOUTUBE].">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07M239n0XY&frags=pl,wn/YOUTUBE]." />

ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

This is not how we post a YouTube link, FUXL. For a tech guru, your skills are lacking.



FUXL said:


> +
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07M239n0XY&frags=pl,wn/YOUTUBE]." title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07M239n0XY&frags=pl,wn/YOUTUBE].">
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07M239n0XY&frags=pl,wn/YOUTUBE]." />
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FUXL

*Salong Tony!*

Next stop: Helping Mad Max?

Faw Sure.

Soooouiiiiieeeeeeeeeee!

https://globalnews.ca/news/4639484/tony-clement-sexting-scandal-national-security/


----------



## FeXL

Stupid is as stupid does. Typical politician.

So, Piggy, tell me something. Where were ya when the news reports came out about our Prime Groper? And elbowgate?

Or is everything A-OK when the left does it?



FUXL said:


> Next stop: Helping Mad Max?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Stupid is as stupid does. Typical politician.
> 
> So, Piggy, tell me something. Where were ya when the news reports came out about our Prime Groper? And elbowgate?


Jimbo only comes out between Liberal scandals.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Stupid is as stupid does. Typical politician.
> 
> So, Piggy, tell me something. Where were ya when the news reports came out about our Prime Groper? And elbowgate?


Jimbo only comes out in rare moments between Liberal scandals.


----------



## FeXL

From Freddie's backyard.

What In The Actual Hell?



> Global News: Loud bang led police to car packed with explosives, critically injured man in Sherwood Park


More:



> _An explosion led police to a car packed with explosives and a man with severe injuries in Sherwood Park Tuesday night, Global News has learned. The 21-year-old man died of his injuries, RCMP confirmed in a Wednesday afternoon news conference.
> 
> Security sources told Global News the explosive material was believed to be Tannerite, a brand of binary explosive targets used for firearms practice. Sources said a ‘”significant… very large” amount of Tannerite was found in the car. Sources described this as a “homemade” vehicle-born improvised explosive device._


More:



> _Sources told Global News police were alerted to the vehicle at the Strathcona County civic office when a loud “bang” was heard from inside a nearby parking garage.
> 
> A man was found at the scene with severe, life-threatening injuries. He was taken to hospital where he later died, RCMP said, adding his injuries “were not related to police interaction.”
> 
> Sources told Global News police believe the car belonged to the man.
> 
> Sources said the incident is not believe to be a national security event, but said motive was not yet known._


Notice anything missing in the news report? They know he's a male. They know he's 21.

Where's the name? Any bets the narrative is being drawn up as I post this? Motive unknown? Riiiiiight...

From SDA's comments:



> Doubtless this was a right-wing extremist, racist, homophobic, misogynist, white-supremacist and his intended act of terrorism was entirely due to Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric.


Nails it.

Probably had NRA stickers all over the car, along with photos of Trump & Scheer.

Update:



> Update: Suspect, a 21 year old male, is dead as a result of his injuries.
> 
> _#Breaking RCMP hold a press conference about what happened in #SherwoodPark, as first reported by Global there was a vehicle packed with explosives found. Police reveal there were TWO explosions now. One that triggered the police response and one while police were there #YEG
> 
> — Mercedes Stephenson (@MercedesGlobal) November 7, 2018_​


Still no name. Photos of Amish suspect with The Dope now being scrubbed from MSM & the national archives.


----------



## SINC

Well, the first denial has been announced by the RCMP on the supper hour TV news tonight.

And I quote: "There is no threat to national security."

That was followed quickly that, "We are still searching for more explosive devices".

Anyone want to bet the name of the dead 22 year old in the bomb car is that of a foreigner?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Anyone want to bet the name of the dead 22 year old in the bomb car is that of a foreigner?


And begins with an "M"?


----------



## FeXL

Quick, Juthdin, cut 'em another cheque!

Bombardier is selling off two businesses and cutting 5,000 jobs



> Bombardier Inc said on Thursday it would sell two of its units for US$900 million and cut about 5,000 jobs as the Canadian plane and train maker reins in costs and focuses on its core transportation and business jet units.
> 
> Shares were down 14 per cent at 2.74 Thursday morning.


Prescient comment:



> And at least five thousand and one of those laid off will vote, next chance they get, for parties that promise to give more taxpayers’ money to Bombardier, hoping it will mean they can get their jobs back.


Nails it.


----------



## FUXL

*Wait there's more.*

Souiiieeee Souiiiieeee Sooouuuiiieeeeee!

LOL!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/clement-letter-1.4897388


----------



## Macfury

Hey Jimbo--how about DougFord wiping Kathleen's Liberals off the face of the province? 

Did you cry?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Did you cry?


Like a little schoolgirl. 

Just like all the unbelieving Progs the night Bill's Wife lost her ass to a racist, misogynistic, hateful, cisgender white male.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau’s tax on the carbon tax



> So the PM is not only obscuring the intent of his carbon tax with language like “price on pollution,” he is also obscuring the truth.
> 
> Trudeau has said that the new carbon tax will be revenue neutral but that doesn’t include the carbon tax. Watch as Trudeau lies about that.


The Dope lie?

Shocka...  :yikes:

From the comments:



> An Ontario family will pay carbon tax of $600 according to Justin Turdeau. He will rebate that plus a little bit more to 70% of people from Ontario.
> Now the HST is 15% in Ontario. So the feds get 5% of this or an extra $30. The provincial portion is 10% or an extra $60. Turdeau will include this amount in the “rebate to Ontario”
> 
> Come tax time and you’ll get a rebate of $600 plus a little bit more, say $20. If you spend the money you;ll pay HST again. Turdeau knows this. Butts explained it to him which is why he keeps evading the question. The media has yet to figure this out. Hey the media did not do math in school.
> 
> Come 2020, the newly elected budget will say: Oops, the Paris commitments mean we have to buy carbon credits. We cannot refund carbon tax money we promised in 2018 and 2019.
> However, we’ve got this great deal with President Trump and the USA will sell us carbon credits at $100/ton. Oh and we also have to pay for converting the US coal fired plants to natural gas.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> And begins with an "M"?


The latest update I've seen.

RCMP identify suspect in Sherwood Park explosions as Kane Kosolowsky
https://edmontonjournal.com/news/lo...parent-ties-to-any-group-or-ideology-rcmp-say


----------



## SINC

Beej said:


> The latest update I've seen.
> 
> RCMP identify suspect in Sherwood Park explosions as Kane Kosolowsky
> https://edmontonjournal.com/news/lo...parent-ties-to-any-group-or-ideology-rcmp-say


Yep, a bit of a surprise for sure. Now to see what motivated him, in spite of the cops assurance he had no affiliation with any group. There has to be some influence somewhere. I await the ties to something when they fess up.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> The latest update I've seen.
> 
> RCMP identify suspect in Sherwood Park explosions as Kane Kosolowsky
> https://edmontonjournal.com/news/lo...parent-ties-to-any-group-or-ideology-rcmp-say


"K" is just two letters away from "M".


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Yep, a bit of a surprise for sure.


Why is that?

Only muslims know how to make bombs? 

Lots of violent white nationalists on the terror watchlist in Canada...


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Why is that?
> 
> Only muslims know how to make bombs?
> 
> Lots of violent white nationalists on the terror watchlist in Canada...


I guess you only read the first sentence in that post?

Here it is again so you can understand it ALL.



SINC said:


> Yep, a bit of a surprise for sure. *Now to see what motivated him, in spite of the cops assurance he had no affiliation with any group. There has to be some influence somewhere. I await the ties to something when they fess up.*


The jury is still very much out on this one.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> I guess you only read the first sentence in that post?
> 
> Here it is again so you can understand it ALL.
> 
> The jury is still very much out on this one.


No, I didn't miss that. You began to speculate in this post, admittedly much less direct than the rantings of FeXL that followed... but that's par for the course for his anti-muslim obsession.


----------



## FUXL

And the hits keep on coming.....Souieee, Souieee, Souieee. Clement was a pig back in university when he advocated for apartheid. 
Of course racist pigs like him have their supporters as evidenced by certain pigs in this forum.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-tony-clement-admits-to-multiple-acts-of-infidelity/


----------



## Macfury

Did you enjoy seeing the Liberal empire collapsing in Ontario? Looks like conservatives are taking the provinces one by one!



FUXL said:


> And the hits keep on coming.....Souieee, Souieee, Souieee. Clement was a pig back in university when he advocated for apartheid.
> Of course racist pigs like him have their supporters as evidenced by certain pigs in this forum.
> 
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-tony-clement-admits-to-multiple-acts-of-infidelity/


----------



## FUXL

.


----------



## FUXL

*Hey Fossil boy!*

Fossil people going to get all mad again.:clap:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/keystone-xl-pipeline-halt-construction-judge-1.4898539


----------



## Macfury

Now that the US Supreme Court is packed with conservative judges, the stay will be temporary at best! You lose again Jimbo--the tide of history is washing you away!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Now that the US Supreme Court is packed with conservative judges, the stay will be temporary at best! You lose again Jimbo--the tide of history is washing you away!


Well, MF only pinheads would oppose pipelines that benefit both themselves and their country. They would rather see "rolling pipelines" called trains that every single day threaten people of this country by derailment. He ought to ask the people of Lac-Mégantic in Quebec about that.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Well, MF only pinheads would oppose pipelines that benefit both themselves and their country. They would rather see "rolling pipelines" called trains that every single day threaten people of this country by derailment. He ought to ask the people of Lac-Mégantic in Quebec about that.


Jimbo is only interested in ideology over safety and economic wellbeing. That's why his people are going extinct.


----------



## FeXL

Ten = lots??? 

And precisely how many people have they killed in Canada? Ever?

Get a grip, CM. Yer losin' it...



CubaMark said:


> Lots of violent white nationalists on the terror watchlist in Canada...


----------



## FeXL

FTFY...



FUXL said:


> And the hits keep on coming.....Souieee, Souieee, Souieee. Juthdin was a pig back in BC when he sexually assaulted a female journalist.
> Of course sexist pigs like him have their supporters as evidenced by certain sexist pigs in this forum.


Sooooouuu!!!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Jimbo is only interested in ideology over safety and economic wellbeing. That's why his people are going extinct.


Not only that, but imagine all that hateful carbon "pollution" that trains are pumping into the atmosphere whilst carrying their crude loads.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Hey, Priapus drivin' Piggy, here's another tailor made tale of gov't waste for ya!

Billions in aid to Afghanistan wasted, including money from Canada, U.S. agency finds



> Billions of dollars in Western foreign aid to Afghanistan, including from Canada, has been lost to widespread waste, lax oversight and endemic corruption, a U.S. watchdog agency says.
> 
> The U.S. Special Inspector-General for Afghanistan Reconstruction said in a report to Congress that aid money has gone to build medical clinics without electricity or water, schools without children and buildings that literally melted away in the rain. Also, corrupt local officials who were in charge of paying workers with some of the funds created what the audits called “ghost workers,” civilian bureaucrats, police and soldiers who did not exist, then kept or diverted money recorded as being paid to them.


Nice.

More:



> “There is a lot of corruption, [but] *most of what we have identified are just head-smacking stupid programs and really poorly managed and no accountability*. Nobody is really held accountable for wasting the money,” Special Inspector-General John Sopko said in an interview with The Globe and Mail.


"Head-smacking stupid." Huh. Sounds just like Juthdin & his crew of miscreants, donit? :lmao:

Further:



> Unlike the United States, *Canada does not independently audit the money it puts into Western trust funds for international aid.*


Yeah, bold mine.

Stunning.

Course not! Why would we? Because the appearance of actually doing something productive is far more important to Progs than actually achieving any results. Optics, my friends. It's all about optics. 

"We gave 37 kajillion taxpayer dollars to to all those poor, displaced, people overseas. It's not our fault not a single hungry kid got the equivalent of a dead, dry grasshopper to eat... :-( But vote for us!!!"

Soooouuuuiiiieeeeeee!!!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Soooouuuuiiiieeeeeee!!!


Priapus says: "Somebody sexted a lady. Then he said he did it more than once. Then he got kicked out of the party. In light of this, billions wasted are unimportant."


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Priapus says: "Somebody sexted a lady. Then he said he did it more than once. Then he got kicked out of the party. In light of this, billions wasted are unimportant."


A billion pissed away by stupid, irresponsible gov'ts here, a billion pissed away by stupid, irresponsible gov'ts there, who cares? It's all "free" money anyways...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on the Feds stealing your private data from the banks.

Canadians are fighting back against Trudeau’s breach of privacy



> Don’t worry we are told, your data is safe in the hands of the government.
> 
> That’s been the refrain from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau since news broke that Statistics Canada wants to seize the banking information of 500,000 Canadians per year.
> 
> “*We take the privacy of Canadians very seriously, and so does Statistics Canada*,” Trudeau said in the House of Commons.


M'bold.

If The Dope took privacy half as serious as you're average Canuck does, he wouldn't even be proposing this BS, let alone pushing it through.

More:



> Defenders of the government’s Big Brother data grab will claim that StatsCan is much more secure, much more careful with personal data than Canada Post.
> 
> Really?
> 
> Why then was sensitive census data left on a subway by a forgetful employee? Why was there another data breach when sensitive data was left in an employees car which was then stolen?
> 
> Canadians value their privacy and want their data protected. Claiming we can trust all of our banking records to the government rings hollow when you realize how often the government has data breaches.
> 
> *Last week the Conservatives tabled a stack of papers, 800 pages, detailing data breaches by the feds in the last two years alone.*


Yeah, bold mine.

WTF???!!! :yikes:

I feel better already.

Further:



> Trudeau sees this as a winning wedge issue, like the fight over the long form census that he keep referencing.


As always, Junior and his handler, Butts, ain't got an f'ing clew. It's a wedge issue, all right. And, from everything I've read on this, the majority don't want anything to do with it.

Keep pushing, Juthdin. The more people you alienate, the better the odds are this country will be opening a fine craft beer & smoking a good cigar come November. In celebration of tossing yer sorry ass out on the street.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

True Story



> Call: “Good Evening, Mr.Reliable Donor, I’m calling on behalf of the Canadian Cancer Society. How are you this evening?”
> 
> Mr. Reliable Donor: “I’m well, thank you”.
> 
> Call: “First, let us thank you for your past support. I’m calling to ask if you’d like to contribute again to the fight against cancer.”
> 
> Mr. Reliable Donor: “I’m very sorry, but I won’t be giving you any money this year.”
> 
> Call: “May I ask why?”
> 
> Mr. Reliable Donor: “I can’t afford to because of the carbon tax”.


Nails it.

I am so stealing this! Especially when the political parties come calling.

Comments relevant.


----------



## FeXL

(Could just as easily fit in the Gun Control thread)

Lying sacks of feces, & other Prog traits.

Liberal lie on domestic guns exposed, again



> On top of Stats Canada saying they have no records or data to back up this claim, beyond the Canadian Firearms Information System saying they do not have records or track such stats, there is a new admission.
> 
> Public Safety Canada says they have no records to back up this claim that has been made by their own minister, Ralph Goodale.
> 
> Researcher Dennis Young asked Public Safety to provide records on the number of stolen guns in Canada over the past several years by province and where the gun was stolen from. He asked for data on guns stolen from private homes, retailers, police or military and more.


More:



> *They have no data.*


Shocka.

Further shining examples of outstanding evidence based policy brought to you by your Lyin' Liberals...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Curious, that...

Canadian media suddenly worried about third party groups



> A funny thing happened on the way to the 2019 election, Canada’s media noticed that there are these things called third party groups.
> 
> Its not that the media in this country haven’t noticed that third parties have existed before but now, there is an alarm being sounded. A warning has been issued.
> 
> *LOOK OUT!!!!*
> 
> There is a conservative third party now!


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1029...q9K7_rVRcg3SZcxHgp2vqtGRaiGjgn5W-hJz1vFaLVclI

Well said. Makes us all proud to be Canadians.


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau doesn't make me proud, nor does he make all Canadians proud.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Trudeau doesn't make me proud, nor does he make all Canadians proud.


Should have said "many". Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Should have said "many". Paix, mon ami.


Much better!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Much better!


Paix, mon ami.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJg4boDMLjM[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW0Bk0_E7uU[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuXtltqPANo[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

Wow!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qxFyN8CBz4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUeLTZp-Dig


----------



## Dr.G.

A unique story.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...sfbjCsRNApNbjNqIoQec2REGd-wbzl8JQGai3_dLbEFKo


Oops. Should have put this in another thread. Mea culpa.


----------



## FeXL

Dr.G. said:


> Well said. Makes us all proud to be Canadians.


What's going to make me proud as a Canadian is when this effete, unqualified, trust fund baby gets his backside handed to him in the next election.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

How can you tell when a Liberal is lying? When his lips are moving...

True Costs of Trudeau’s Carbon Tax



> A report by the parliamentary budget officer found that charging GST on the provincial carbon pricing scheme of just four provinces — British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario and Quebec — would generate between $265 million and $313 million in 2018-19 alone.
> 
> That’s before Trudeau’s plan increases the price on carbon significantly and before it is applied across the entire country. Expect the feds to be pulling in an extra billion or more in GST revenues in a few years time.
> 
> Trudeau promises that by the time his current plan is fully implemented, the average family of four will get a once-a-year rebate of $718 on their tax return.
> 
> Meanwhile, expenses for that average family will have gone up by more than $1,000 a year in direct and indirect costs, including paying more in GST.


But the superficial, uninformed idiota Progs will still vote for him, because "Nice hair!!!"

Comments bang on.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Mr Dressup.

Wither Canada

From the comments:



> Prinz Dummkopf must be followed by a Kenworth hauling a trailer of his costumes. Last week, he was also the Marlboro Man.


Yeppers.

And, I ain't no horseman, but did you see how he looked in that photo? Like it was the first time he'd ever been on horseback.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Non-citizens can vote because we don’t check



> An eye opening article out of Vancouver on the issue of non-citizens voting.
> 
> British Columbia is currently in the middle of a referendum on electoral reform. Sure, voters turned down proportional representation before but with the NDP back in power, let’s try again!
> 
> So can non-citizens vote in this referendum?
> 
> Well they aren’t supposed to but they can because neither Elections BC, not it turns out Elections Canada, has the ability to check.
> 
> News 1130 in Vancouver followed this story after hearing from a listener who is not a citizen but was able to vote. Turns out the whole system is based on honour
> 
> _“The system is an honour system for confirming that you are in fact a citizen,” Rebecca Penz with Elections BC said. “We don’t have the ability to use records such as health records to validate citizenship. We don’t have that authority to do that.”_​
> I imagine it is much the same across the country, because as you will see in a minute, it is the same for Elections Canada.


M'bold.

NIIIICE!!!


----------



## FeXL

Further on Canuck voter issues.

Thousands of Canadian voter cards sent to dead, non-citizens



> According to Elections Canada, about 207,000 voter information cards were sent out in the last election to people that were already dead. Another 57,500 went to people that were not citizens.
> 
> With the Trudeau government set to allow voter information cards to be used as identification in the next election we should all be worried.
> 
> Are dead people going to vote? Did they vote in the last election?
> 
> What about non-citizens?
> 
> The scary thing is that Elections Canada recently admitted that they have no way of tracking whether a someone is a citizen before voting, describing the process as an honour system.


More:



> One political operative that I spoke to told me of comparing the voters list, the one that showed who had voted, to obituaries and other databases on recent passings.
> 
> His comparison turned up many people that had voted despite being dead for years.


Until these votes show up as conservative, the Progs will do as little as they can to fix the situation...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau government appoints former Omar Khadr lawyer as federal judge



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s Liberal government has appointed one of Omar Khadr‘s former lawyers as a justice in federal court.
> 
> The appointment of Toronto-based lawyer John Norris was announced by Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould Monday. Elizabeth Walker, a lawyer and chairperson of the RCMP External Review Committee, was also appointed to the position.


Just rubbing our noses in it...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on terrorist lawyers promoted to Federal courts.

Fright Court – Small Dead Animals




> Brian Lilley;
> 
> _I don’t know John Norris, I haven’t met him at all so I can’t tell you what kind of man he is or what kind of lawyer. […]
> 
> What I can tell you about John Norris is that he has defended a number of terrorists and accused terrorists. In fact he seems to seek that out. A look at his website shows he acted as Omar Khadr’s lawyer in one lawsuit against the Canadian government and acted as an intervener in two other cases effectively supporting Khadr’s position.
> 
> He acted for Suresh Sriskandarajah, a man that pled guilty to terrorism charges for helping the Tamil Tigers. Norris acted for Raed Jaser, one of the men convicted in the Via Rail plot to blow up passenger trains above the Niagara Gorge. Other notable clients include Mahmoud Jaballah, Adil Charkoui, members of the Toronto 18 and more._​
> And now he’s your judge.


I feel warm & fuzzy all over... XX)


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I'll take stupid, unqualified, effete, trust fund baby, Prog PM's for $200, Alex...

Galt Pipelines, Inc.



> Niagara Independent;
> 
> _ One of the largest foreign holders of Canadian energy stocks says investors are turning away from the country, frustrated over Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s failure to get pipelines built to ease a record discount for oil-sands crude.
> 
> In a letter to the prime minister, Darren Peers, an analyst and investor at Los Angeles-based Capital Group Cos., warns investors and companies will continue to avoid the Canadian energy sector unless more is done to improve market access.
> 
> “Capital Group’s energy investments are increasingly shifting to other jurisdictions and that is likely to continue without strong government action,” Peers wrote in a letter dated Oct. 19. “I hope that your government will be even more proactive in securing market access which will assure the competitiveness of Canadian energy companies.”_​
> Related. _The price of Western Canadian Select closed at $13.46 US a barrel on Thursday. Meanwhile, the American benchmark price, West Texas Intermediate, closed at $56.49 US._


----------



## FeXL

I didn't actually watch the vid, but the comments below were...compelling.

Stephen Harper – Reflections

Nails it:



> Harper should have severely defunded CBC (especially TV), and once he didn’t get the Senate reforms that he tried for, should have appointed some decent Senators, instead of leaving vacancies for the Sock Puppet and his handlers to fill. Maybe he had his reasons, *but to me those 2 inactions are unforgivable*.


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Two links to MotherCorpse inside.

Freedom Of The Press



> This is the time at SDA when we juxtapose!
> 
> 
> CBC, November 15 – _Federal government issues permanent postal ban on hate speech publication_
> 
> 
> CBC, November 16 – _Government looking at new ways for Canadian newspapers to innovate and receive charitable status_


The open market, not Other People's Money, is the best impetus for innovation. Defund the CBC!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canadians paying bills for birth tourism



> Call it birth tourism of another kind.
> 
> We’ve all heard stories about mothers arriving in Canadian cities just in time to give birth so their child can get Canadian citizenship.
> 
> But what about foreign parents having a kid in Canada via surrogacy?
> 
> It is happening and it is growing.
> 
> In 2016 and 2017 there were 102 babies born to surrogate mothers in British Columbia. A shocking 45 of those babies were born to parents from outside of the country.
> 
> Here is the crazy part, you are paying for it and the baby that is quickly whisked off to a foreign land is granted automatic Canadian citizenship.


----------



## FeXL

Quebec shouldn't lecture Ontario on language protections



> Quebec’s premier rolled into Ontario on Monday and complained Ontario isn’t treating their linguistic minority with enough respect.
> 
> I wish I was making this up.
> 
> The man who leads a province that has a law dictating English on business signs must be half the size of French is worried Ontario isn’t treating French speaking citizens with enough respect.
> 
> The man who leads a province that has a law mandating all business must be conducted in French is worried Ontario is trampling on the rights on their francophone minority,


----------



## FUXL

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> .




Soieeeee!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Piggy, question for ya:

Is that poll conducted by the self-same brainiacs who called for Bill's Wife to win in '16 and also predicted a Blue Wave this month?

Jes' askin'...

I see you've updated your sig. Good. Just wanted you to know that it's already here. In the main park in downtown Lethbridge, Galt Gardens, the First Immigrants already p!$$ all over the place. Seen it in Calgary, too...

Oh, and Freddie, WTF is a soyeeeee?



FUXL said:


> .


----------



## SINC

I see FUXL is as fulla chit as ever, course anytime one believes the CBC owned and operated by the Liberals, it is a clear sign of a troubled mind.

*A Conservative Majority Toronto, October 16th – In a random sampling of public opinion taken by The Forum Poll™ among 1226 Canadian voters, amongst those decided and leaning, if an election were held today the Conservative party would secure support from 4 in 10 (41%), while the Liberals would secure support from about one-third (32%).*

Read more at: The Forum Pollâ„¢ - A Conservative Majority
Copyright ©Forum Research Inc.


----------



## Macfury

Guys, it's CBC poll tracker, nothing legitimate. It's the kind of stuff FuXL checks daily in the comfort of his mom's basement.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Guys, it's CBC poll tracker, nothing legitimate.


Ah. My tax dollars at work. Nice to see I'm getting good value... :lmao: XX)


----------



## SINC

Yep, exactly.

*Liberals’ plan to kill Alberta oil industry is working. Just faster than expected*

https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1542765981


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on stealing citizen's private financial info.

Stasi Canada



> _Navdeep Bains, the Trudeau cabinet minister responsible for Statistics Canada, said he first learned of the federal agency’s controversial plan to harvest the financial transaction data of potentially millions of Canadians as a result of media reports and not, as the law requires, in a written notification from the country’s chief statistician._​
> And he lied to cover it up.


From the comments:



> _..Bains, on Monday, said he now understands that affected Canadians would be informed if their data was collected…”_​
> The arrogance of that statement simply drips…How about this Mr. Minister: You and your Government have ZERO business accessing my Personal financial data….none of your Goddamned buisness. Keep your filthy Liberal Hands off my data.
> (My reply to this Liberal Pissante & others via e-mail this AM).
> 
> *As noted yesterday – Bring on the Census, they will find I am 7 yrs old, Cohabitate with a Transgendered elephant and earn $12,456.17 annually.* That being the only tactic that would have any effect whatsoever…


Yeah, my bold.

I predict many TG pachyderms as cohabitants come next census...

More from the comments:



> It seems like only yesterday that every media outlet and left wing person was moaning and bawling over the possibility that our spy agency could read terrorists e-mail.


Yeppers.

Related:

Stazi Canada

To start:



> From now on, every answer I give on a census will be a lie.


Nails it.

Now, the meat of the matter:

StatsCan made $113 million selling data to businesses



> Statistics Canada has had a surprising side business for decades. It employs 400 people full-time to package up data and sell it to private businesses. As David Akin reports, the agency makes a lot of cash doing this.


Again, from the comments:



> Well that explains the outrage when Harper decided to get rid of the census long form.


Nails it, too.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canadian cannabis investor given lifetime U.S. entry ban while travelling through YVR



> A Canadian investor travelling to Las Vegas to attend a prominent cannabis conference and tour a new cannabis facility has been issued a lifetime entry ban to the U.S., according to an immigration lawyer he consulted.


I read this somewhere recently. If you're going stateside & get asked:

1. You've never smoked pot;
2. You have no dealings with any pot-based businesses;
3. You have no investments in any pot-based businesses.


----------



## SINC

Liberal/CBC lies. 

Kevin Libin: Beware of fake news reporting that Liberals are better than Tories on pipelines

http://business.financialpost.com/o...-liberals-are-better-than-tories-on-pipelines


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> Liberal/CBC lies.
> 
> Kevin Libin: Beware of fake news reporting that Liberals are better than Tories on pipelines
> 
> http://business.financialpost.com/o...-liberals-are-better-than-tories-on-pipelines


Some good points in there. I'd forgotten how recently the original Keystone pipeline was added.


----------



## Beej

I see we're copying the U.S. in funding more tax cuts with deficits.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-...-deficit-rising-to-19-6b-in-2019-20-1.4185964

We're approaching U.S.-style all party consensus that deficits should be talked about but not eliminated.

Watching Canada's anti-deficit attitude unravel since 2008 has been quite the ride.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Liberal/CBC lies.


Shannon Phillips. What a waste of skin. It will truly be a pleasure to see her gone come May...


----------



## CubaMark

*The Halifax Examiner has a few choice words for the Liberals' funding to help Canadian "journalism":*

In short: the government subsidy for the news industry is a government handout to the Globe & Mail, Torstar, Postmedia, the Irvings’ Brunswick News, Sarah Dennis and Mark Lever’s Saltwire, and possibly some Quebec papers. No one else need apply, because the deck is stacked.

And really, $595 million over five years — $119 million a year — isn’t squat for the corporate newspapers. They’re lumbering old dinosaurs, enfeebled by giant corporate structures, indebted to American bond holders, leashed to expensive printing presses, incapable of moving quickly in today’s online world. Torstar blew $40 million in its ill-advised pursuit of a tablet publishing effort, but sure, give it another $10 million a year in taxpayer money so it can, I dunno, create a snazzy iphone app?

No, the Trudeau government’s subsidy won’t save the legacy newspapers, which will soon die no matter how much money is dumped into them. But in the meanwhile, the subsidy money will buy some good press for the government; I fully expect to soon see a Saltwire editorial praising the subsidy as an “innovative solution” that will “save democracy,” or some such nonsense.​
*RELATED:*

$600M in federal funding for media 'a turning point in the plight of newspapers in Canada’
Media sector gets $595-million package in Ottawa’s fiscal update


----------



## Macfury

Should be no funding of any news organization by government--including CBC.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



Macfury said:


> Should be no funding of any news organization by government--including CBC.


I think it's fabulous. No, really. The more discord The Dope sows between now & November hence, the better. You go, girl.

One Term Juthdin!

CM, BTW, are you actually _complaining_ about gov't largesse? :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk s'more about The Dope's dope decision.

Let's suppose you don't want...
...the government to know how much dope you're smoking... what are the options... 



> Among the many shoppers on Thursday, a fourth-year university student said he preferred to buy from this [illegal] dispensary to avoid the delivery problems that bedevil the provincial cannabis store. Also, he didn’t want the transaction to appear in his banking records.


More:



> Justin's Tru-Dope stores didn't shut down illegal sources of marijuana... it just made them look better by comparison.


----------



## Macfury

I can't see many people shutting out their local suppliers who provide home delivery as fast as pizza.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> CM, BTW, are you actually _complaining_ about gov't largesse? :yikes:


I'll complain all day, every day, about corporate welfare.


----------



## Macfury

But just let the government buy that corporation and it becomes a valuable resource, worthy of government largesse. Or maybe a failed green energy venture.



CubaMark said:


> I'll complain all day, every day, about corporate welfare.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> I'll complain all day, every day, about corporate welfare.


Curious. I don't recall you ever being critical of Bombardier...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Good. Now that we've established your only issue with this is corporate welfare.

Your Moral And Intellectual Superiors



> Unifor Praises Trudeau’s $600 Million Media Bailout;
> 
> _ They’ve pledged to oppose the Conservatives, represent many thousands of media workers, and asked Trudeau to bail out the media. Trudeau is doing exactly what they wanted, and Unifor is doing exactly what he wants._​


As if the MSM wasn't biased against the right enough as it is, Trudles just bought $600 million of insurance...



CubaMark said:


> I'll complain all day, every day, about corporate welfare.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Things You’ll Never See On The CBC



> Chris Selley;
> 
> _ Back in 2015, Amanda Lang, at the time CBC’s marquee business reporter, found herself in hot water. There were credible allegations she had unsuccessfully lobbied editors to torpedo a colleague’s story about RBC using temporary foreign workers, and that she had lobbed a softball interview at RBC CEO Gord Nixon on The National, all while in an undisclosed romantic relationship with one of the bank’s directors. An internal CBC review recommended a lunch-and-learn on conflicts of interest, but otherwise came back clean: “The content of Amanda Lang’s journalism has adhered to CBC’s journalistic standards.”
> 
> In the aftermath, CBC Radio’s Q assembled a media panel — myself included — to discuss the matter. Or so we were told._​


That sounds like a great, big, fat, "Not bloody likely", doesn't it?

Spoiler alert: Not bloody likely...


----------



## SINC

A wee bit of an eye opener on largely unknown government permissions granted.

*RCMP officers given permission to break the law a record 73 times in 2017, report shows*

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...times-in-2017-report-shows/ar-BBQ43r6?ocid=sf


----------



## wonderings

SINC said:


> A wee bit of an eye opener on largely unknown government permissions granted.
> 
> *RCMP officers given permission to break the law a record 73 times in 2017, report shows*
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...times-in-2017-report-shows/ar-BBQ43r6?ocid=sf


Briefly reading the article it looks like most of it, if not all was in regards to under cover work. I have no issue with that, not sure how anyone working undercover could avoid breaking the law, would look a bit suspicious if new guy "Vinny" would not do anything illegal with the rest of the guys.


----------



## FeXL

I do have issues with it.

The law is the law. Period. How long does it take before this loose interpretation gets translated as justification to break the law elsewhere? For instance, breaking into houses in flooded High River, AB & illegally stealing firearms? Crossing into obviously private land & shooting a deer, which I have posted about on these boards? Even, say, trickling down to regular traffic laws?

The reason I ask is there are many city cops in Lethbridge who regularly break traffic laws. Not stopping at stop signs, not signalling and speeding are the most common infractions I see. And I'm not talking about when they have their lights and/or sirens on. Just heading to the local donut shop. Can they then justify it by saying, "Hey, I'm a cop. I don't need to follow the laws"?

Bull$h!t.

If the cops don't follow the law, why should anybody else? If the cops don't follow the law how can they then, in clear conscience, ticket anybody else for the same infractions?

The hallmark of a healthy society is that everybody is on the same playing field. Nobody is "above" the law, nobody is "more equal" than anybody else. "Vinny" will just have to figger a way to do his job while not breaking any laws.



wonderings said:


> Briefly reading the article it looks like most of it, if not all was in regards to under cover work.


----------



## FeXL

Trudeau the Pipeline Killer!



> Getting our oil to markets other than the United States is vital to ending the discount that Canadian oil trades at but so to is ending regulatory uncertainty that Trudeau has caused. And the fear the industry is facing for its future based on Trudeau’s future plans.


Oh, and just in case any of you remain unconvinced about the veracity of Climenhaga's version of Trudles' alleged good intentions regarding Alberta oil, from the comments:



> Trudeau (January 2017) … “We can’t shut down the oilsands tomorrow. We need to phase them out. We need to manage the transition off of our dependence on fossil fuels but it’s going to take time and in the meantime we have to manage that transition,”


The link in the quote is to _Global_. If you don't trust them, you can find the quote at MotherCorpse.

This poses the obvious question: Why would anybody whose intent is to shut down the oilsands build a pipeline worth billions of dollars? Yeah, The Dope is stupid but not _that_ stupid.


----------



## FeXL

Rex, I'm sorry. This time you've got it wrong.

Shelve those 'carbon' taxes until the oil is flowing



> Lewis Carroll is alive and well, and writing Canada’s energy policy.
> 
> I am willing to offer the dead but gifted master of the absurd the credit, mainly because I think it would be cruel to ascribe it to living intelligences. However — that gesture of mercy aside — reality sees it otherwise, and we know it is the masterminds of the PMO who have brought the energy policy of our country to the total and possibly irredeemable mess that it now so very emphatically is.
> 
> Even so, the combination of regulations and procrastination, surreal taxation, endless court battles, and insensate opposition by brigades of wild-eyed foundations and NGOs can be said to constitute a “policy” only in the way that tumbling off a precipice to splatter on the rocks below might be described as “finding a neat shortcut to the valley.”


Trudles & Climate Barbie, along with their provincial cohorts (Red Rachel, _et al_.), can shove the carbon tax where the sun don't shine.

Forever...


----------



## FeXL

Compare & contrast.

Between a Hyphenated Canadian...

...and a hard place... let's see Prime Minister Dressup, Andrea Horwath or the CBC condemn Baldev Manjania for defending his property with a weapon...

On one hand, Neo notes this:



> _ "Robbers used a van to smash their way into a Malton jewelry store that was open and serving customers at the time."_​
> *The Toronto Sun portrays Mr Manjania, quite rightly, as a brave man standing up for his rights.*


Bold mine.

He ended up chasing them away. Sounds reasonable, right?

On the other:



> When Dievert’s Jewellers in Port Alberni, British Columbia was robbed at gunpoint, the owner, Dennis Galloway, retrieved his *legally-owned and stored handgun* from the store’s safe. He then shot one armed robber. The wounded thief’s accomplice fled for his life and was never apprehended.
> 
> The RCMP recommended Dennis Galloway be *prosecuted for unsafe storage and careless use of a firearm*. RCMP Staff Sgt. Lee Omilusik said he couldn't comment on a case that's still before the courts, but emphasized that police in no way condone *vigilante behaviour*.


Links' bold.

It's a crock. And you can bet your sweet patootie that when seconds count & the cops are minutes away, I'll be using every available resource I can use to protect me & mine with vigilante justice. You can charge me after.

But wait! The rest of the story:



> Manjania said that he had the sword because of his religion. “We have a Sikh temple here, and *every Sikh temple, they have a sword*,” he said. “I just keep it for safety, you know, *if something happens*.”


So, Sikh swords OK, legally stored & owned firearms bad.

Got it...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk the $600 million Presstitutes s'more!

$600M in federal funding for media 'a turning point in the plight of newspapers in Canada’



> The government is pledging nearly $600 million over the next five years to help news organizations struggling to adapt to a digital age that has disrupted traditional business models.
> 
> Finance Minister Bill Morneau said the government wants to protect the “vital role that independent news media play in our democracy and in our communities.”


Good ol' Porno Wille, lying once more.

Hey, Wille, how independent d'ya s'pose the nedia's gonna be if these are the criteria for eligibility:



> To determine eligibility for the credit, the government plans to create an independent panel drawn from the “news and journalism community,” which will also *“define and promote core journalism standards (and) define professional journalism.”*


M'bold.

In other words, if you speak Liberal, you getcher cash.

h/t SDA, from which come these two prescient comments:



> Dear Santa
> Justin told us we have been good boys.
> So please bring us fishnet stockings, blond wigs, high heels, mini-skirts and lots of cheap red lipstick and toothpaste for Christmas.
> John Honderich
> Paul Godfrey


Knocks it out of the park.

And this:



> This excerpt from the comment section of the Nat. Post article is priceless.
> 
> “Peter *****”
> *$600 mil for you a**holes to sit on your fat lazy a**es all day cutting and pasting crap from other agencies, re-wording, and putting them in your own??* Don’t deny it! I got into an argument a few months ago with a CBC reporter who stated that’s what he does ALL day, and that he shouldn’t be blamed for mis-information (he copied) from other Canadian and foreign agencies, and put in his own articles… GARBAGE NEWS/FAKE NEWS “


M'bold.

A billion and a half bucks a year just don't get ya what it used to...


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> I do have issues with it.
> 
> The law is the law. Period. How long does it take before this loose interpretation gets translated as justification to break the law elsewhere? For instance, breaking into houses in flooded High River, AB & illegally stealing firearms? Crossing into obviously private land & shooting a deer, which I have posted about on these boards? Even, say, trickling down to regular traffic laws?
> 
> The reason I ask is there are many city cops in Lethbridge who regularly break traffic laws. Not stopping at stop signs, not signalling and speeding are the most common infractions I see. And I'm not talking about when they have their lights and/or sirens on. Just heading to the local donut shop. Can they then justify it by saying, "Hey, I'm a cop. I don't need to follow the laws"?
> 
> Bull$h!t.
> 
> If the cops don't follow the law, why should anybody else? If the cops don't follow the law how can they then, in clear conscience, ticket anybody else for the same infractions?
> 
> The hallmark of a healthy society is that everybody is on the same playing field. Nobody is "above" the law, nobody is "more equal" than anybody else. "Vinny" will just have to figger a way to do his job while not breaking any laws.


Then I wonder how things would change for the worse if the police and other enforcement agencies could not sneak into these underground and illegal organizations to take them down. How many mobsters would still be around because they could not get anything on them without infiltrating and breaking the law in order to take these people down.

Yes I agree there are certain things police should not be doing and traffic infractions is a no brainer, that is not under cover and unless it is part of an emergency call then they should follow the rules like the rest of us. There is a line though and I am completely fine with it when used to bring down human trafficking rings, child porn, drug trafficking and all the rest. The article you posted stated that most of those were in regards to organized crime which is far different then breaking traffic laws. If you see infractions call up your local police station, police cars have big numbers on the bag, give your complaint and the car number.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

GM Oshawa closure proof government bailouts don't work: O'Leary



> He doesn’t like to say he told you so.
> 
> But — when he was running for a chance to be Canada’s next prime minister — Kevin O’Leary warned that when governments use taxpayers’ dollars to prop up failing businesses, all that comes out of it is failure.
> 
> Now that General Motors has announced it is closing its historic Oshawa assembly plant, the private businessman and analyst says there is an important lesson to be learned.
> 
> “The GM Oshawa plant closing is proof that government bailouts never work and Canadian taxpayers always lose,” the Shark Tank and Dragon’s Den star told the Toronto Sun.


More:



> “The taxpayer, you and me, paid for this,” he said in a Global TV interview. “We were promised that these jobs would stay in Ontario — they’re not. The government did a hell of a bad job negotiating that deal. Who negotiated that deal? If they worked for me they’d be fired now. You have to be a better manager if you’re going to govern a province as big as Ontario. ”


Further:



> “Look how badly Trudeau’s investment in the Kinder-Morgan pipeline has gone already,” he said. “Canadian taxpayers just got shafted again for billions.”
> 
> The moral of the story?
> 
> “This country desperately needs better management,” said O’Leary.


Wait. Wha...?

You mean that the double Master's program dropout, substitute drama teaching, snowboard instructing post-national feminist trust fund baby with the nice harrrr & droopy eyebrow isn't doing a bang up job?

Shocka...

Frankly, with a complete absence of credentials like that, I wouldn't hire him to slop the hogs or clean out their pens, let alone try to run a country.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> Briefly reading the article it looks like most of it, if not all was in regards to under cover work. I have no issue with that, not sure how anyone working undercover could avoid breaking the law, would look a bit suspicious if new guy "Vinny" would not do anything illegal with the rest of the guys.





wonderings said:


> Then I wonder how things would change for the worse if the police and other enforcement agencies could not sneak into these underground and illegal organizations to take them down. How many mobsters would still be around because they could not get anything on them without infiltrating and breaking the law in order to take these people down.
> 
> Yes I agree there are certain things police should not be doing and traffic infractions is a no brainer, that is not under cover and unless it is part of an emergency call then they should follow the rules like the rest of us. There is a line though and I am completely fine with it when used to bring down human trafficking rings, child porn, drug trafficking and all the rest. The article you posted stated that most of those were in regards to organized crime which is far different then breaking traffic laws. If you see infractions call up your local police station, police cars have big numbers on the bag, give your complaint and the car number.



Might be valid arguments except:


> They were mainly linked to organized crime investigations which saw undercover officers taking part in bets, pool-selling, bookmaking and unlawful possession of tobacco products, according to a recent Public Safety report quietly tabled in the House of Commons in late October.





> That year, the offences ranged from bribery to unauthorized use of a computer and passport forgery.
> 
> The crimes vary by year, but often involve forgery and false statements.


----------



## FeXL

First Oil, Now Cars…



> Leftist policies have been decimating the oil industry, now they are taking a toll on the auto sector.


More:



> When the McGuinty Liberals took power in 2003, Ontario was the jurisdiction with the biggest share of auto production in North America. We haven’t been able to say that for some time.
> 
> Political policy matters and 15 years of Liberal rule turned Ontario from the economic engine of the country to a province that has received equalization payments from the federal government for the last several years.


Prescient comments from the link, & tying into what I noted some time earlier: when you have outlived your usefulness to the Progs, you are discarded like so much offal...



> All I have to say is; SUCK IT UNIFOR. Enjoy your time under the bus. No socialist EVER has an ally; only useful idiots to be discarded when the time is right.


And:



> To put it more succinctly; socialist do not under any circumstance make friends. They only use tools, and only Napoleon (‘[Animal Farm]’, Orwell) gets to decide when a tool is no longer useful. When Soros decides anti-free is no longer useful, you will all be rounded up very quickly. Maybe even loaded into cattle cars.
> 
> Socialism is always, ALWAYS, a Faustian bargain. Cause you are never the one at the top, and if you are, they are all plotting to replace you. Just ask Stalin, or Mao why they liked purges so much.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> I’m old enough to remember when there were going to be “a million electric cars on the road by 2015”: SIX YEARS AGO OBAMA PROMISED TO BUY A CHEVY VOLT. NOW IT IS DEAD.


From the comments:



> Justin Turdeau is plotting. I would not be surprised to see him announce that the Federal Government is buying the Oshawa plant from GM and also buying the design, dies and tooling of the Chevy Volt.
> Two new cars will be made at the Oshawa plant: the Volt will be rebranded as the Sophie (to appeal to female drivers). An all electric version will be called the Justin.
> 
> Bombardier will be asked to run the plant. A new battery plant will be built by Bombardier in Quebec.
> 
> To encourage Canadians to buy the new fuel efficient cars, all pickup trucks and SUVs will have a $2000 a year gas guzzler tax applied when you renew your vehicle licence. This will be announced after the next election. Money from this tax will be returned to Canadians who buy a Sophie or a Justin.
> 
> If this does not increase demand for the Sophie and Justin cars, the liberals will sponsor the Antifa to start wrecking pickups and SUVs.
> 
> Welcome to Turdeau and Butts brave new world.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Gawd, don't give the idjit any ideas...

Edit:

Just ran across this comment, a response to the above:



> I wish you were joking. A Torstar business ‘journalist’ has already suggested the government take over all of GM Canada.


Why am I not surprised that the Red Star would support this kind of idiocy? I went looking for the article containing the suggestion, couldn't find it.


----------



## FeXL

Chinada



> I often ask my anti-pipeline friends in BC, _“What do you plan to do for an economy after you’ve run out of real estate to sell to Chinese money launderers?_
> 
> Ok, so they’re not my friends anymore.


----------



## Beej

For anyone wondering what it looks like when cultish fake academic disciplines have schisms, this story is for you.

Meghan Murphy, Twitter and the new trans misogyny 
note: the author is part of the schism as well
https://spectator.us/twitter-trans-meghan-murphy/


> Murphy has been repeatedly locked out since for tweeting the likes of ‘men aren’t women,’ ‘males can’t become female,’ and ‘what is the difference between a man and a transwoman?’. Her account was suspended on Friday. Twitter cited a tweet saying ‘Yeah it’s him’ as the reason, which referred to a man named Jonathan Yaniv, who had been making appointments with female beauticians in Vancouver, asking them to perform a ‘Brazilian’ bikini wax on him.


Murphy in her own words here.
https://quillette.com/2018/11/28/twitters-trans-activist-decree/


> While it might comfort some to view these threats as performative or theoretical, that isn’t always the case. On May 29, a lesbian named Taelor Furry was beat up outside the Grey Fox Pub, a gay bar in St. Louis, Mo. Her attackers were queer-identified women who had accused Furry of being a “TERF.”


----------



## SINC

Ths whole gender thing is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on government. You are born one of two genders or a combination of the two. There are no others except those who exist in the minds of the mentally disturbed.


----------



## FeXL

So, this is allegedly a story about drug kingpins in the Greater Vancouver area.

Fentanyl kings in Canada allegedly linked to powerful Chinese gang, the Big Circle Boys

However, deep into the article, 2/3rds or more or the way down, we find a more important part of the story:



> *Zhang came to Canada in 1992 and became a permanent resident in 2003 despite a criminal record that included a weapons offence, an Immigration and Refugee Board case shows.*


Yeah, my bold.

WTF?

Must have been a slow day for Immigration Canada. Couldn't find anybody without a criminal record...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Of course not. It's all just a remarkable coincidence...

Justin Trudeau insists there’s no link between him and Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation after minister Chuck Strahl quits



> A political controversy over a donation to the foundation bearing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s family name deepened Thursday when one of the directors reportedly quit his post because of the controversy.
> 
> The Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation confirmed that former Conservative cabinet minister Chuck Strahl resigned Thursday, effective immediately, one day after his name was raised in defence of a hefty donation the foundation received from a Chinese official who met the prime minister at a private Liberal party fundraiser.
> 
> _The Globe and Mail_ reported that Strahl, in his resignation letter, wrote that he would not allow the Liberals to use his place on the board as justification for their fundraising actions.


More:



> The donation to the foundation has been a political thorn for the prime minister all week. Liberals have defended Trudeau’s appearance at the May fundraiser at a Toronto-area home as being within political fundraising rules, while the opposition parties say Trudeau violated his own ethical standards set out to cabinet ministers that they must avoid even the hint of a conflict of interest in their activities.



Further:



> Earlier this week, Trudeau defended his appearance at the fundraiser by saying he was *trying to entice foreign investment into Canada*.


M'bold.

Hey, Trudles, here's a free tip: F'ing quit. That'll do more for foreign investment in Canada than anything else you can possibly do.


----------



## SINC

Be afraid. Be very afraid. 

YOU SAID IT: The West's slow, agonizing death

https://ottawasun.com/opinion/lette...t-the-wests-slow-agonizing#Echobox=1543403970


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Be afraid. Be very afraid.
> 
> YOU SAID IT: The West's slow, agonizing death
> 
> https://ottawasun.com/opinion/lette...t-the-wests-slow-agonizing#Echobox=1543403970


Time for the West to merge BC, AB, SK, and MB to form their own country. Or, take a page from PQs book and form a national West Party.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Time for the West to merge BC, AB, SK, and MB to form their own country. Or, take a page from PQs book and form a national West Party.


No way BC merges w/ AB. _Diametrically_ opposed politics, mindset, values, etc., in the populous southwest coast, even with the threat of being cut off from the ROC. Less so in the less populous interior & eastern border.

The "West Party" concept (Reform) was attempted & failed miserably when they merged with Canadian Alliance & ultimately the Conservatives which, incidentally, I still have not forgiven them for. Realistically, probably not enough national support to form gov't.

Separation is the only way.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Libranos



> 9 Comments
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> _ Liberal MP Raj Grewal publicly questioned senior officials in the RCMP and other law-enforcement agencies about the way they investigate money laundering earlier this year, at the same time as the Mounties were probing his multimillion-dollar gambling activities and sought to determine the origin of the funds, records and sources say.
> 
> Mr. Grewal announced his retirement last week from the House of Commons, citing unspecified personal and medical issues. The Prime Minister’s Office said the next day that Mr. Grewal was leaving to deal with a gambling problem and significant personal debts. As of Tuesday afternoon, Mr. Grewal was still officially an MP and his exact resignation date remained unknown.
> 
> "He regularly took part in the finance committee’s review of the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act. He was also involved in early discussions about the committee’s draft report" https://t.co/qFhpG8dWl8
> 
> — Norman Spector (@nspector4) November 28, 2018_​


Comments nail it.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada under the Trudeaus



> While most Americans quite understandably are preoccupied with politics at home, there is restlessness in America’s backyards both south and north.
> 
> Canada is more or less taken for granted by Americans as a generally calm and orderly country, a close ally and a reliable partner in world affairs.
> 
> But beneath the surface, Canada is a troubled country, and the present Liberal government to a large extent deliberately has distanced Canada from the United States on matters relating to economy and national security that under the Conservative government of the former Prime Minister Stephen Harper were more or less in harmony with America.
> 
> The present Liberal government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau by its posturing fatally undermined Nafta this past summer. The refusal to consider seriously President Trump’s reasoning for renegotiating Nafta eventually led to its demise and the launch of a new agreement, which the Trump administration negotiated bilaterally with Mexico at first, leaving the Canadian government to literally hustle in the last hour to get on board.


I never, ever, _ever_ liked the old man. However, this is a fair assessment:



> Pierre Trudeau felt and responded differently in respect to Canada’s past. In his debates with Levesque there were no apology for any wrongs, perceived or otherwise, done to Quebec by English Canada. Pierre Trudeau knew in the deepest sense that the past needed to be assessed in the context of the past, and how a country make amends for the wrongs of the past is not by offering cringing apologies but making certain that lessons have been learned and that such wrongs are not repeated in the present and the future.
> 
> *Now imagine Justin Trudeau handling an October-type crisis.*


M'bold.

Well, first he'd have to get a new pair of socks darned...


----------



## FeXL

That's _illegal aliens_, you idiots...

Irregular migrants will cost Canada $340 million and rising, says PBO



> Asylum-seekers who entered Canada irregularly last year will cost federal organizations $340 million — an amount projected to balloon to almost $400 million for migrants who arrive in 2019, the federal budget watchdog says.
> 
> A report Thursday from the parliamentary budget officer calculates the average cost of each irregular migrant who arrived in Canada between April 2017 and March 2018 at $14,321.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau plays politics while Ontario and Alberta bleed jobs!



> While Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was playing language politics on Wednesday, Ontario Premier Doug Ford was issuing the PM a challenge, get serious about jobs and stop the carbon tax.
> 
> Noting Trudeau said all options are on the table to help GM, Ford spoke directly to the PM.
> 
> “Here’s the option I want to see on the table. Scrap your carbon tax,” Ford said.
> 
> *“You can’t campaign for a job killing carbon tax on Monday… and wonder why manufacturing and automotive jobs are leaving on Tuesday.”*


M'bold.

Wait... Logic? You're trying to use logic with The Hairdo? Better off to wear a freshly darned pair of socks, Doug.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Juthdin's $600 Liberal insurance policy.

Feds ponder troubling cure for fake news



> It would mean as we head towards the vote, a government funded body would decide what is and is not fake news.
> 
> But apart from that worrisome prospect, the government funding a campaign to seek out disinformation might want to start in house.


It's interesting (but unsurprising) that we've heard nothing from the Progs on this. Can you imagine the hue & cry from the left if Harper had announced a similar policy? The Dope's not going to be in Ottawa forever. I wonder if they'll be nearly as silent when the Conservatives take over & start dictating their own terms for fake news...


----------



## FeXL

Art Of The Fail



> Now is the time at SDA when we *juxtapose*!
> 
> November 7, 2018: Canada First! Trudeau says no Signing Ceremony unless tariffs are lifted
> 
> ...
> 
> November 30, 2018: Canada First! Watch the Signing Ceremony


More:



> _ Canada will not call the new NAFTA “USMCA” (Trump’s preferred name). In Canadian law it will be CUSMA, putting Canada first.
> 
> — Evan Dyer (@EvanDyerCBC) November 30, 2018_​
> So there. Canada First!


For a post-nationalist, that's a purdy nationalistic thing to do, no?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Turdeau. What a freaking idiot. I'm so proud.

Hey, Piggy, WTF? Canada first? Or he's gonna hold his bref 'til he turns blue?

And, curiously, the tariffs are extant!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Soooouuuuuuuiiiiiieeeeeeee!!!

And, _and_, from the comments:



> Indeed. Prinz Dummkopf wouldn’t show his copy of the agreement:
> 
> ...
> 
> Maybe he didn’t want the rest of the world to see that he couldn’t sign his name but made his mark with an “X” instead. Why learn to write when you’re going to inherit Daddy’s money anyway?


From the link:



> It looks like Justin was pouting!
> Beta’s gonna beta!


Wahhhh!!! :-(

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What an f'ing embarrassment...

Caution: Link to Presstitute Mothercorpse inside.

The World



> Through the eyes of a groper.
> 
> _ Trudeau in Argentina says there are "social" impacts of bringing male construction workers to rural areas 🤔 pic.twitter.com/cxLJ86ybjy
> 
> — Canadabuster (@Canadabuster) November 29, 2018_​


Just a few salient comments:



> How does he? know this?
> Never having worked.
> *Not capable of constructing anything so far.Not even a complete sentence.*
> 
> ...
> 
> Considering that he never spends much time, if any, in these “deplorable” locations, he sure knows a lot about what goes on there, doesn’t he? (Yeah, right.)
> 
> I grew up in one of those towns. I later worked in one. I passed through more of them during my travels throughout the years. None of those places impressed me as being Sin City in the way he portrayed them.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> That is utter nonsense spewing from this Prime Minister!
> Whoa!
> Must he speak with his hand, making circles and closing the fingers in an air squeeze with the palm up? He always does the frown thing using the word “NNNOT” as if he is so pensive….”nnnot because we’re better, but because….blah, blah.”
> 
> Yikes! What an idiot.
> 
> ...
> 
> *There honestly wasn’t single time I have heard him speak and immediately did not think “what an utterly worthless, brain dead piece of excrement he is”.*
> 
> ...
> 
> Every time he opens his yap, I feel like exclaiming the expression used most often by Al Swearengen (as portrayed by Ian McShane) in the HBO series _Deadwood_.
> 
> Just when I thought he couldn’t embarrass this country any further….
> 
> ...
> 
> *Mr. Soft-Hands-and-Pressed-Suits has never done a hard day’s work in his life, save groping or otherwise assaulting women.*
> 
> ...
> 
> *What a clueless, shielded twat, he is…*
> 
> ...
> 
> He was virtue signalling about how great he is on what he thought was a world stage. *What a useless empty scumbag.*
> 
> ...
> 
> This is a telling comment, by Justin Trudeau, that shows his anti-rural bias. Rural areas, over the decades, have faced tough economic times, dependent on natural resources and tourism. Here, Trudeau advocates ore bureaucratic red tape to prevent job-creation in rural areas, while at the same he gives urban areas a free pass. Trudeau is an elitist who knows nothing... [edited for clarity]
> 
> ...
> 
> *What about the social impact when drunk trust fund twats grope female reporters.*
> 
> ...
> 
> Your PM is a metrosexual simpleton


Yeah, I bolded a few of my favourites. Read them all.


----------



## FUXL

Here piggy piggy piggy piggies. Souieeee indeed!


----------



## SINC

^

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

And you believe the FUXLing CBC, bought and paid for by the Liberals as they throw money at it year upon year?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4308765/andrew-scheer-conservative-frontrunner-trudeau-poll/

https://www.quora.com/Who-will-win-the-2019-Canadian-election



> Let's Talk Statistics
> -Last Year 48.5% of people aged 18-29 said they will vote Liberal in 2019
> :Today 27.90% of people aged 18-29 say they will vote Liberal in 2019, the Conservatives are way ahead among millenials
> -Last Year among Atlantic Canadian's 61.5% of them said they would vote Liberal in 2019
> :Today among Atlantic Canadian's 44.31% of them say they will vote Liberal in 2019
> -Last Year among British Columbian's 46.6% of them said they will vote Liberal in 2019
> :Today among British Columbian's 40% of them say they will vote Liberal in 2019, Forum Research even suggests that their base is much more polarized in the BC region
> "These are just a few of many examples of how polarized the Liberal base has become" But there is a little good news as well, some of the less accurate 2015 pollsters suggest that Trudeau is performing alright, these declines are happening despite the Opposition and Official Opposition having no leader.
> Post Budget Forum Research
> Conservatives 38% +3%
> Liberals 36% -3%
> Post Budget Nanos Research
> Liberals 40% -2%
> Conservatives 33% +4%
> Post Budget Ipsos Research
> Liberals 39% -2%
> Conservatives 32% +2%
> Note: Never In Canadian politics has an opposition party taken the lead without a leader
> Note: The Star powered Kevin O Leary may likely become the next leader of the CPC and pollsters say that he poses a major threat to the Liberals
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Other Reasons Trudeau Will Lose
> 1.The media is now against him
> 2.Canadians have started to question his integrity and honesty and they should
> 3.Liberal supporters will be baked and blazing on election night 2019


----------



## Rps

Hate to disagree Sinc, but I think the Libs have the next election....they have all sorts of time to spin their failures. Trudeau’s biggest problem is his trust fund mentality and probably the weakest Cabinet I’ve seen. However who will beat him. The Cons are non-existent and Sheer almost had to agree to a number of the Libs actions lately. The Maritimes have always be Liberal, Quebec will probably go Liberal...the NDP have self destructed there, Ontario might be a split...some Libs, some Cons, some NDP, the West will go Con......however BC is a question mark for me.


----------



## Macfury

Maybe, but putting up occasional poll compilations--from CBC no less--this early in the election cycle is pretty meaningless.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Border loophole opens backdoor to more irregular migration



> Anchor relative, it’s a new term for me but apparently a reality in Canada’s messed up immigration system.
> 
> And don’t go thinking this is a term made up by some anti-immigrant group, it came from a report on illegal border crossers released by the Parliamentary Budget Officer this past week.


More:



> CBSA can’t provide the number of people using this loophole in the system to the Parliamentary Budget Officer but magically, when questioned about it by media, Trudeau’s Liberals have answers.
> 
> A spokesman for Public Safety claims that while in 2017 there were an average of 531 people per month coming into Canada using an exemption to the Safe Third Country Agreement, that number is down to an average of 318 per month in 2018.
> 
> Or 3,816 people.
> 
> Oh and by the way, while immigrants and refugees operating through normal channels can only help bring in direct family members such as parents, spouses or children this loophole has a broader definition to include cousins, aunts, nephews and so on.
> 
> Don’t worry, the Liberals keep telling us the system is working.
> 
> Well if this is the system working then we need another system.


Further:



> As has been well documented, many of the people crossing into Canada illegally are economic migrants. They fly from places like Nigeria into the United States and then head straight to the border and claim to be refugees.
> 
> They got into the US on a standard visitors visa with no claim of persecution. Then they bring in their extended families through a loophole once they become the anchor relative.
> 
> Yet to Trudeau, this is fine, this is normal.


----------



## FeXL

I post this comment in its entirety because it is a particularly splendid rant. 



> Canadians are the most compliant sheep in a world of sheep. Canadians live in a velvet prison of over 500,000 Laws, Rules and Regulations, that represent a stack of paper over 14 stories high. A legal Gulag. Even the Canadian Constitution has entrenched Communism written in to it and not even a one Bleat from the overtaxed sheep. Equalization Payments. “From Each According To His Means To Each According To His Needs” Canadians are so sheepish that even tho they are the most over taxed and over regulated sheep in the world none have ever turned and fought their elite masters. Never, unless you count the Train Load of Unemployed Westerners in the Great Depression that the RCMP gunned down in Winnipeg. Not one time has Adult Canadian Voters Male or Female ever been consulted on anything of importance in Canada. National Flag, rammed through by 8 Liberals while Parliament was in recess. They did not even have a quorum. Not a Bleat. Income Tax rammed through without consultation. New Constitution of Pierre Trudeau rammed through and every single Premier spoke against Property Rights of the People except for Stirling Manning of Manitoba. Multicult no right to question or vote, Bilingualism shut up and speak French you Merde. All the huge important events in the life of every Canadian, and never once were you considered adult enough to speak. Criminal Levels of Taxation at all 3 levels of Government, A Legal Gulag of over 500,000 laws and regulations for 30 odd Million people, the population of California with almost the same debt as all of the EU combined, and no end in sight. Hell you can not even speak your mind without being bankrupted by Star Chamber Human Rights Courts, you have been disarmed, and now they are pissig on your backs and lay on your backs like little dogs with your nuts exposed and vote for more and fight over which Communist is better. The smiling she dog Scheer, wjo will lick anybody’s nuts for a vote, Trudeau an avowed Marixt, The PC Communists, The NDP Communists. Pathetic Pathetic nutless sheep. You deserve full measure of what is coming. Hell even the Cheese Eating Monkeys the French and Belgian’s are showing you up. But keep rowing away shackled to the Oars of the Slave Ship Canada.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

Further on Climate Barbie.

Things You’ll Never See On The CBC



> _ This morning on @WendyMesleyCBC I posed @cathmckenna a question regarding #CarbonTax and #CdnAg I received a very out of touch answer so here is my question again in full and my response to her answer. pic.twitter.com/STUev4HiF9
> 
> — Dirt Sweat N Tears (@farmermegzz) December 2, 2018_​


First comment knocks it out of the park:



> The Liberal cabinet managed to find someone stupider than Trudeau – Climate Barbie.


Yep.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> I post this comment in its entirety because it is a particularly splendid rant.
> 
> :clap::clap::clap:


What a strange thing to applaud emphatically.


----------



## FeXL

Does none of that list resonate with you? If not, I guess you're living in Utopia. Hair on ya...



smashedbanana said:


> What a strange thing to applaud emphatically.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Mr Dressup

Report censors answers about Trudeau's disastrous India trip



> How did a convicted terrorist end up attending events in India alongside Canada’s prime minister, his wife and senior government officials?
> 
> Turns out it was a series of screw-ups akin to the Keystone Cops.
> 
> One that could have been solved with this new technology called Google.
> 
> A report issued by the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, a multi-party committee of MPs and Senators, lays out what happened on Justin Trudeau’s disastrous trip to India.
> 
> It ain’t pretty.


----------



## SINC

Yup.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Yup.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

*Ex-Liberal MP Raj Grewal must divulge who lent him millions to fuel gambling habit, opposition demands*

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/pol...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1543978616


----------



## SINC

Everyone's Christmas wish.


----------



## FUXL

Hey Pigs! Souieeee, souieeee.


----------



## SINC

^

Paid for in full and brought to you by the CBC, funded entirely by the federal Liberals. FUXL off now.


----------



## Macfury

In a country turning conservative province by province, Jimbo is becoming desperate.


----------



## SINC

Trudeau's Canada, progressing ever so slowly, but steadily day by day.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Piggy, what's this? Two _more_ Liberals MP's under investigation?

Shocka...

RCMP called to probe tale of two Liberal MPs, a suburban overpass, trip to India and multimillion dollar land deal



> The Toronto-area city of Brampton has asked the RCMP to look at a multimillion-dollar land deal after confidential information on the transaction was passed to local Liberal MPs Navdeep Bains and Raj Grewal, sources confirmed Friday.


Sooooouuuuuuiiiiiieeeeee!!!


----------



## SINC

And then there is this:

Justin Trudeau’s Political Career Is Likely In A Death Spiral

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/i...UW2pU1vi0mBtzlEbeLrc6x_IKOvlrN0Ew9hatM0v38wTo


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Justin Trudeau’s Political Career Is Likely In A Death Spiral


Perhaps even some of the Laurentian Elite will clue in...

One Term Juthdin!!!

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Trudle's delay in dealing with Chinese steel.

Canadian Steelworkers or China?



> You know which side Trudeau picked. New information that the feds are finally acting to stop Chinese steel being passed through Canada 21 months after Trump asked Trudeau to act.
> 
> Yes, we could have avoided those tariffs.


More:



> _So let’s be clear on timelines here.
> 
> * April 2017 – Americans ask Canada to stop Chinese steel dumping
> * March 1, 2018 – Trump announces intention to impose tariffs on steel and aluminum
> * May 30, 2018 – Trudeau government promises action on Chinese steel dumping
> * May 31, 2018 – Tariffs imposed
> * December 6, 2018 – Trudeau government asks for proposals to deal with issue the Americans raised 21 months earlier_​


Sounds like the timeline most of the budgies (drama students) I knew in university used... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin, As Arrogant As His Daddy



> There is a First Ministers Meeting in Montreal this week. Remember when Trudeau promised to have a more co-operative relationship with the provinces?
> 
> He is offering lectures to the premiers by Morneau, McKenna and Leblanc. And don’t believe the hype that oil is on the agenda.


Comments made me LOL...


----------



## SINC

If Alberta pulls the trigger, Canada pays the price.

*If Alberta turns separatist, the Rest of Canada is in big trouble*



> Holding all the power now, Albertans would get richer while the balance of the country would get poorer.
> 
> Canadians don’t value our fossil fuel economy, which explains why so many are OK to trash pipelines and see Alberta tank. Only 19 per cent think it more important to pursue oil and gas development than to go green and regulate oil, according to EKOS polling. That 19 per cent figure shrinks to eight per cent for Canadians who consider themselves Liberals, six per cent for NDPers and two per cent for those who vote Green, meaning that politicians of most stripes have no interest in alienating their supporters to help Alberta’s energy economy recover.
> 
> Those figures also explain why Alberta’s sense of alienation is on the rise. According to Ipsos, fully 62 per cent believe Alberta “does not get its fair share from Confederation” (up from 45 per cent two decades ago), 46 per cent feel more attached to their province than to their country (up from 39 per cent) and 34 per cent “feel less committed to Canada than I did a few years ago” (up from 22 per cent). Just 18 per cent of Albertans believe “the views of western Canadians are adequately represented in Ottawa.”


More at the link.

https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1544184632


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Just twisted...

Canadian Hospital Waiting Room Promotes Euthanasia



> A source sent me this photograph of a public information announcement that appears on a large television screen in a William Osler Health System hospital urgent care waiting room pushing euthanasia to patients!
> 
> The ad oozes compassion. The visual is a photo of a male doctor’s hand gently resting on the arm of a woman in a hospital bed, accompanied by the following text:
> 
> _ *Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD)*
> 
> MAiD is a medical service in Canada, whereby physicians and nurse practitioners help eligible patients fulfill their wish to end their suffering._​
> The PR notice then provides a toll-free phone number that people interested in being killed can call to obtain more information.
> 
> *This is profoundly abandoning. Realize, these patients may be afraid. They may be in pain. They may be depressed. And what one act does the hospital from which they seek succor push? Killing.*
> 
> The ad makes no mention of palliative care or other means to reduce or eliminate suffering without killing. It does not describe that counseling can help people regain the desire to live. There is no hint that suicide prevention services might be available. And it obscures the fact that MAiD is a euphemism for homicide by lethal injection.
> 
> Think about how shockingly far the culture of death has penetrated Canada since the country’s Supreme Court imposed it on the entire country three years ago.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to Mothercorpse inside.

Peak Segregation... 



> _ "While just 7.7 per cent of all children under 14 are Indigenous, they account for 52.2 per cent of all children in foster care • astonishing numbers that demand some sort of response, Indigenous Services Minister Jane Philpott."_​
> Apparently that "response" involves separate drinking fountains because... racism.


I know, I know. Just like all the missing/murdered First Immigrant women, it's all ******'s fault...


----------



## SINC

Turdeau continues his assault on Alberta.

*Ottawa has options to help Alberta. It’s just choosing not to*



> Alberta is desperate. Its losses in oil sales have made it so much so that the provincial government has ordered oil companies to curtail production by 325,000 barrels per day — or 8.75 per cent of total volume — for up to one year beginning Jan. 1, 2019. Premier Rachel Notley’s controversial plan is to force producers to constrain supply to drive up prices, something she portrays as a regrettable last resort. Certainly the only people who would be completely happy with this imperfect solution are the radical environmentalists who want to stop oilsands production altogether. Curtailment was a first step for them.


https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1544011250


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Turdeau continues his assault on Alberta.


Trudles knows he loses no votes by treating AB as he is. Matter of fact, to some twisted, uninformed, wilfully ignorant Prog minds, his actions will garner their vote.

They have no clew that what's good for Alberta is good for the RoC.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Damn those construction workers!

Gender Impact



> As Sask Power crews worked long hours in the cold this week to restore heat and light to thousands of homes, the women of Saskatchewan kept their rape whistles at the ready.


From the comments:



> I miss my days as a construction worker although the constant raping of hillbilly women was getting to be boring. How’s a guy supposed to keep up?


I was thinking the same thing. Erected (pun intended) steel bins one summer in central Alberta as a summer job while in high school. Great money, 12 hour days, 7 day weeks, eat & drink what we wanted, and there was never a shortage of love-starved farmer's wives & daughters to rape & pillage. :heybaby:

Was never so glad to see September roll around so I could head back to classes & get some well deserved rest...

Also from the comments:



> You make the assumption that he has a brain. I always knew this guy was stupid, but I had no idea of the depth of his stupidity.


I don't think we've come _close_ to plumbing the depths of The Dope's stupidity. As he sees his empire crumbling prior to election day, just wait...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

'Atta boy! Alienate even more people just before campaign season.

Like father, like son — Justin Trudeau just as dismissive with provinces as PET at First Ministers Meeting



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau acted just like his daddy on Friday, in all the wrong ways.
> 
> Trudeau was hosting a First Ministers Meeting in Montreal and at once was both dismissive of the provinces and premiers, as his father had been, and even tried to pit East against West.


More:



> Trudeau promised his ministers would only give presentation for a few minutes before discussions began. That didn’t happen.
> 
> At one point New Brunswick’s Blaine Higgs had to interrupt Finance Minister Bill Morneau.
> 
> *“In the spirit of this being a dialogue, not a lecture — let’s have questions,” a source in the room quoted Higgs as saying.*


M'bold.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## SINC

Hey Piggy! Souieeee, souieeee.

*Federal Conservatives would win majority if election held today: Forum poll*



> The federal Conservative party would win a majority is an election was held today, a new poll shows.
> 
> In a recent random sampling, 43% said they would vote conservative, while 34% would cast a Liberal ballot.
> 
> “The Conservatives have a strong and steady lead over the Liberals as we go into the New Year,” said Dr. Lorne Bozinoff, president of Forum Research, which conducted the survey.


Interesting to note that Forum Research correctly predicted the 2015 Liberal win, so they are noted for accurate polling which the CBC is definitely not.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-n...yObEdQdNFSIV56DFCu9zHTSi4aFa4oIGgMIE#comments


----------



## SINC

From the CBC, this is a big change. 

Trudeau's neglect of the nation has led us to this place

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...don-hill-trudeau-confederation-risk-1.4937499


----------



## FUXL

Hey pigs. Aggregate poll by Eric Grenier. Souieee Souieee Souiee y'all.


----------



## Macfury

Shake hands with the Queen lately, Jimbo?


----------



## FeXL

A MotherCorpse flunky, Priapus Piggy?

Serious?

A guy whose job literally depends entirely on throwing anything right of Marx in a conservative light?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Get a grip...



FUXL said:


> Hey pigs. Aggregate poll by Eric Grenier. Souieee Souieee Souiee y'all.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Special rules for "Special" people 



> Remember... you get the government you deserve...
> _fast AND hard_...
> 
> "Canada's Liberal Justice Minister is *instructing federal prosecutors IN THE NORTH* that they should *no longer prosecute anyone for not disclosing their HIV status* to a sex partner."
> 
> Proposed new tourism slogan...
> 
> "*What happens in Nunavut... stays in Nunavut.*"
> 
> Well, you gotta hope.


Links' bold.

A commenter I read elsewhere wryly noted that, in about 5 years, there will be lawsuits launched against the Feds amid accusations of abuse...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Children Are Our Future



> Medical research has confirmed that the body’s endocannabinoid system is a finely regulated and highly complex system which is involved in the detailed regulation of essentially all body systems including the brain and cardiovascular systems and stem cell niches.
> 
> *Studies have shown that the rate of use of cannabis by expecting mothers closely parallels that in the wider community. In fact given the long half-life of cannabis in tissues even were a maternal habitual smoker to stop when she discovered her pregnancy, her infant would continue to be exposed to her on-board cannabinoid load for several months afterwards during critical periods of organogenesis. And other studies show that the father’s cannabis use is even more damaging than the mothers’* 2.
> 
> Whilst much research has focussed on the effects of endocannabinoids in the adult brain relatively little research has looked at the impact of these same effects in the developing brain of the foetus and neonate.


Now wait just a goshdarn minute... Wasn't Mags a pothead? beejacon


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The Children Are Our Future
> 
> 
> 
> Now wait just a goshdarn minute... Wasn't Mags a pothead? beejacon


Mums and pops both.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Mums and pops both.


Fidel smoked pot?! :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

More Hugs and Poetry Should Help



> Despite this being a response to a call by Parliament to bring returning ISIS fighters to justice, much of the report explains why that can’t be done or focuses on preventing people from joining groups like ISIS and al Qaida.
> 
> More on Trudeau failing to fight back against ISIS in Canada here.


----------



## SINC

Yup.

*Trudeau's approach to Alberta is damaging national unity*

https://www.truenorthinitiative.com/trudeaus_approach_to_alberta_is_damaging_national_unity


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Trudeau's approach to Alberta is damaging national unity


Like Stepdad, like Stepson...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

More Pavilions At Folkfest



> _ In the past two years, populist governments have been elected (or populist parties have been given bigger roles in coalition governments) in Italy, Sweden, Belgium, Poland, Hungary and elsewhere. This has been because, unlike mainline parties, the populists have been willing to admit immigration is an issue.
> 
> […]
> 
> [M]ost mainline conservatives won’t take up immigration for fear of being branded racists by mainline liberals and the “progressive” media, and for fear of missing out on the votes of enlarging ethnic communities.
> 
> That means voters who are worried about losing their jobs or having their cultures submerged by immigration have no traditional political outlet for their concerns. Disgruntled voters, then, fill the resulting leadership vacuum with anti-immigrant populists who overestimate the dangers in much the same way the mainliners underestimate them._​
> When the voters don’t like your policies, get new voters.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canadians clash over Trudeau's carbon emissions tax in months before election



> Wading into treacherous political waters, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s plan to dramatically increase taxes on carbon emissions to combat climate change is dividing the country, pitting six of the provinces against Ottawa and *setting the stage for a bitter and partisan federal election next year*.


One Term Juthdin!


----------



## SINC

Yup, in spades.

*Federal Liberals putting family of murdered girl Tori Stafford 'through hell,' Tories charge*

https://nationalpost.com/news/local...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1544585722


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Possibly? :yikes:

Ottawa considers gun control options with a handgun ban seen as costly and possibly ineffective



> The federal government is considering further restrictions on handguns but will stop short of an absolute ban, as the cost to buy back legally owned handguns is pegged as high as $2 billion, the Star has learned.
> 
> Escalating gun violence across the country, including Toronto, spurred calls for the federal Liberals to act. After public consultations, deliberations are now underway with a proposal being readied to take to cabinet early next year.
> 
> Among options under consideration are the imposition of tougher legal obligations on gun owners such as mandatory storage in secured lockers at a shooting range, not at home, and wider powers for police to preventively suspend a gun owner’s licence where there is a risk someone may be harmed. For instance if a health professional raises an alarm about an individual’s mental health, police would be able to act to suspend a licence in absence of a criminal charge or the registration of a criminal conviction.
> 
> A senior government official who was granted anonymity in order to discuss the debate underway within government, said no final decisions have been made about whether to propose a ban on handguns and assault weapons.
> 
> In the case of the latter, *there is no precise definition in law of just what an assault weapon is, but the government wants stricter controls on “assault-style” firearms, said the source.*


Bold mine.

Typical. The old, "We can't describe what they are but they scare the hell out of us." defence...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> This is awkward.
> 
> _ China has detained a second Canadian citizen this week, a Chinese government news site has confirmed. China’s state security bureau is holding Michael Spavor on suspicion of jeopardizing China’s national security. As NPR’s Rob Schmitz reports, the detentions appear to be retaliation for Canada’s arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou._​
> Related: Richmond MLA tight-lipped on Huawei ties, as telecom giant’s boss is bailed


Comments knock it out of the park. The first two set the tone perfectly...


----------



## SINC

It's not our want to hold her. Tell the USA to go pound salt and do their own dirty work and let her go home. 

End of issue and two Canadian lives in retaliation matter more than Trump's USA.


----------



## Macfury

Trump isn't behind this. He was actually looking to intervene on behalf of the CFO.



SINC said:


> It's not our want to hold her. Tell the USA to go pound salt and do their own dirty work and let her go home.
> 
> End of issue and two Canadian lives in retaliation matter more than Trump's USA.


----------



## Dr.G.

On December 8, 1966: The House of Commons passed the Medical Care Act by a vote of 177 to two, and generations of Canadians have had access to health care based on need, rather than their ability to pay.

Happy anniversary Medicare!


----------



## Macfury

I wonder when we can officially state that the system has collapsed under its unaffordable weight?


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Dr.G. said:


> On December 8, 1966: The House of Commons passed the Medical Care Act by a vote of 177 to two, and generations of Canadians have had access to health care based on need, rather than their ability to pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Happy anniversary Medicare!




+1 :clap:


----------



## FeXL

As long as you don't mind suffering in the Emergency waiting room for hours on end. Or don't die in line waiting for your surgery 12 months hence. Or, after paying your premiums for years get told flat out, "We can't help you" and you have to head stateside for treatment (which, BTW, Medicare won't fund). Or, after watching the "best the gov't has" close down all the efficient small town hospitals in your province & replace then with health care super-centres in the big cities with sweeping promises of better service, shorter wait times, lower costs, just to have the exact opposite occur. Or, or, or...

Yep. Helluva thing, that Medicare. Only a Prog could have designed that mess. Oh, wait...



Dr.G. said:


> On December 8, 1966: The House of Commons passed the Medical Care Act by a vote of 177 to two, and generations of Canadians have had access to health care based on need, rather than their ability to pay.


----------



## Dr.G.

FeXL said:


> As long as you don't mind suffering in the Emergency waiting room for hours on end. Or don't die in line waiting for your surgery 12 months hence. Or, after paying your premiums for years get told flat out, "We can't help you" and you have to head stateside for treatment (which, BTW, Medicare won't fund). Or, after watching the "best the gov't has" close down all the efficient small town hospitals in your province & replace then with health care super-centres in the big cities with sweeping promises of better service, shorter wait times, lower costs, just to have the exact opposite occur. Or, or, or...
> 
> Yep. Helluva thing, that Medicare. Only a Prog could have designed that mess. Oh, wait...


Things were not the best when we lived in NL, but for the past 4 1/2 years here in rural NS, my longest wait time was 2 hours, we pay no premiums, I have always been treated with respect and expertise at the three hospitals I have had to go to for service/care, and luckily, we have a doctor 5 blocks from my home, who is right next door to the local hospital. Luckier still, Fisherman's Memorial Hospital here in Lunenburg has a big endowment paid for by the local fish plants/harvesters over the years when fishing was king of the South Shore in this part of NS. They are able to attract quality nurses and doctors, which amazes me.

Thus, no Progressive mess here in Lunenburg. We are all very thankful for these opportunities at health care.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I post this seemingly unrelated article here purely because this is precisely what will happen in Canada if we allow it.

Venezuelans regret gun ban, 'a declaration of war against an unarmed population'



> As Venezuela continues to crumble under the socialist dictatorship of President Nicolas Maduro, some are expressing words of warning – and resentment – against a six-year-old gun control bill that stripped citizens of their weapons.
> 
> *“Guns would have served as a vital pillar to remaining a free people, or at least able to put up a fight,” Javier Vanegas, 28, a Venezuelan teacher of English now exiled in Ecuador, told Fox News. “The government security forces, at the beginning of this debacle, knew they had no real opposition to their force. Once things were this bad, it was a clear declaration of war against an unarmed population.”*
> 
> Under the direction of then-President Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan National Assembly in 2012 enacted the “Control of Arms, Munitions and Disarmament Law,” with the explicit aim to “disarm all citizens.” The law took effect in 2013, with only minimal pushback from some pro-democracy opposition figures, banned the legal commercial sale of guns and munitions to all - except government entities.


More:



> “Venezuelans didn’t care enough about it. The idea of having the means to protect your home was seen as only needed out in the fields. People never would have believed they needed to defend themselves against the government,” Vanegas explained. *“Venezuelans evolved to always hope that our government would be non-tyrannical, non-violator of human rights, and would always have a good enough control of criminality.”*
> 
> He said it didn’t take long for such a wide-eyed public perception to fall apart. “If guns had been a stronger part of our culture, if there had been a sense of duty for one to protect their individual rights, and as a show of force against a government power – and had legal carry been a common thing – it would have made a huge difference,” he lamented.


More, yet:



> “Venezuela shows the deadly peril when citizens are deprived of the means of resisting the depredations of a criminal government,” said David Kopel, a policy analyst, and research director at the Independence Institute and adjunct professor of Advanced Constitutional Law at Denver University. “The Venezuelan rulers – like their Cuban masters – apparently viewed citizen possession of arms as a potential danger to a permanent communist monopoly of power.”
> 
> *Although the bill was sold to the population as a hardline effort to improve security, and sharply reduce crime, many now point to Venezuela as a case study for how gun prohibition can actually produce the opposite effect.*


Even more:



> Much of the crime has been attributed by analysts to government-backed gangs – referred to in Spanish as “collectivos” – who were deliberately put in place by the government.
> 
> “They were set up by the government to act as proxies and exert community control. They're the guys on the motorcycles in the poor neighborhoods, who killed any protesters,” said Vanessa Neumann, the Venezuelan-American president and founder of Asymmetrica, a Washington, D.C.-based political risk research and consulting firm. “*The gun reform policy of the government was about social control.* As the citizenry got more desperate and hungry and angry with the political situation, they did not want them to be able to defend themselves. It was not about security; it was about a monopoly on violence and social control.”


Further:



> Luis Farias, 48, from Margarita, said that gun violence was indeed bad when guns were freely available for purchase. But it became much worse after the gun ban was passed. “Now the criminal mother is unleashed,” Farias said. *“Trying to ban guns didn’t take guns off the streets. Nobody cares about the law; the criminals don’t care about the law.”*


All bold mine.

h/t SDA, which has a ton of very salient comments.

If none of this sets off any warning bells, you just might be a Prog, laying on the floor on your back, waiting for the gov't to come along & give you a tummy rub......


----------



## SINC

*Western alienation: Let's be clear, the West didn't pull away until it was pushed away*



> As the country song says, I've put a lot of gravel in my travel.
> 
> For 15 years, I represented the federal riding of Medicine Hat, Alta., in Parliament. But home was the area called the Palliser Triangle.
> 
> It's bounded by the Montana and Saskatchewan borders to the south and east, the Red Deer River to the north and west. A zigzagging line that sprang from the barren imaginations of a team of Ottawa bureaucrats.
> 
> We could be seen as a place out of time. A collection of small farms, small towns and wide-open spaces. But it was here, on the great short-grass prairie, among the draws, aspen copses, the sage, the ancient bison wallows and low rolling hills, that the western Canadian cast of mind was born.
> 
> We respect 'taking responsibility'
> 
> It's inviting to believe that prairie people are all of a kind — all calluses, scraped knuckles, burnt necks and white hats. That's a bit rich, and yet whether at the end of a dirt road or in a Calgary suburb, we see the world in similar ways.
> 
> In a sentence, we're builders. We want to build farms and ranches, families, cities, oil companies, social enterprises and family businesses, but there are also rules. We respect initiative and hard work. We respect "taking responsibility."
> 
> We say we like our governments small, though Alberta's government got to be big and expensive even under the Progressive Conservatives. We like our taxes low. We don't respect those who always have their hand out, but we want to help those who have fallen on hard times. These things set us apart.


More at the link.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...stern-alienation-oil-justin-trudeau-1.4945233


----------



## Rps

I think the greater question is: Why did the Feds kill Energy East and agree, most recently with Quebec, that “dirty Alberta oil” won’t go East, but will use every tool in their arsenal to try and push the TransMountain through B.C.? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## wonderings

Dr.G. said:


> Things were not the best when we lived in NL, but for the past 4 1/2 years here in rural NS, my longest wait time was 2 hours, we pay no premiums, I have always been treated with respect and expertise at the three hospitals I have had to go to for service/care, and luckily, we have a doctor 5 blocks from my home, who is right next door to the local hospital. Luckier still, Fisherman's Memorial Hospital here in Lunenburg has a big endowment paid for by the local fish plants/harvesters over the years when fishing was king of the South Shore in this part of NS. They are able to attract quality nurses and doctors, which amazes me.
> 
> Thus, no Progressive mess here in Lunenburg. We are all very thankful for these opportunities at health care.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Small areas always have smaller wait times because the demand is not as high. Living in SW Ontario it sometimes makes more sense to drive an hour out to a small town hospital rather then wait 8 hours in a waiting room. 

About 10 years ago I found out I had Type 1 diabetes, found out the hard way. Sevear weight loss in a short amount of time and barely no energy. I was "rushed" in emergency and still had to wait about 5 hours before I could see a doctor. 

Personally I would like a 2 tier system. Let those who want to pay for faster or better service do it. The wealthy will already go to the US or Europe for treatment because they can afford it. I know it is a complicated issue, but I think we need to constantly be striving to give Canadians the best healthcare, be it paid through our tax dollars or by choice paid directly by us.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> ...but will use every tool in their arsenal to try and push the TransMountain through B.C.?


<snort!>

Are we reading the same news articles?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> *Western alienation: Let's be clear, the West didn't pull away until it was pushed away*


I didn't always agree with Solberg but I always respected his opinion.


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> <snort!>
> 
> Are we reading the same news articles?


Yes, but I meant that line as sarcasm!


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Yes, but I meant that line as sarcasm!


Sorry. My mistake.


----------



## SINC

Turdeau needs to read this:

*On Gender, the Science Is Deafening*



> Reading the headlines this week is like taking a trip to an alternate universe. Ten years ago, if you’d have said that in 2018 teachers would get fired for calling a girl a girl, most people wouldn’t have believed you. Unfortunately, that’s the ridiculous world Americans are waking up to every morning. But to most people’s relief, not everyone is playing along with this charade. And that includes President Donald Trump.
> 
> Almost two years in, this administration is still trying to mop up the mess made by Barack Obama. And considering the huge disaster it inherited, it’s amazing how much progress the White House has already made rolling back the absurdity of Obama’s LGBT legacy.
> 
> After squashing the government’s gender-free bathroom mandate, Trump moved on to the military. Now, he’s directed his agencies to make one of the most important changes of all: protecting the 54-year-old Civil Rights Act.
> 
> Obama chose to read the law the way he wanted—not how it was written by Congress. For the last few years of his administration, he started using his own interpretation of the Civil Rights Act to give special protections to people who identify as transgender. There’s just one problem: that’s not what the 1964 Congress meant—and it’s not what the statute says.
> 
> The liberal Left continue to push their radical agenda against American values. The good news is there is a solution. Find out more >>
> 
> So, Trump issued his own memo. For the purposes of his administration, the Justice Department explained, “sex discrimination” would not include “gender identity.”
> 
> That was music to the ears of a lot more than conservatives. In the medical community, experts were relieved to see that the president’s policy matched what was wise and prudent for patients. In a letter to the departments of Justice, Education, and Health and Human Services, a coalition of doctors, bioethicists, therapists, academics, and policy groups all praised the president for taking a scientifically-sound approach.
> 
> Dr. Michelle Cretella, head of the American College of Pediatricians, explained why that’s so important in an interview on Thursday’s “Washington Watch.” The letter, she points out, represents the views of more than 30,000 physicians who all understand that gender identity is a very real threat to modern health care.
> 
> *“Transgenders are saying, ‘I think and feel this way, therefore, I am.’ And it’s one thing for us to, as physicians, [to] treat the person with respect and honor their name change, but it would be a complete malpractice to treat them as the opposite sex.”
> 
> As she explains, there is nothing any of us can do to change our binary, biologically-determined-at-conception sex. “A man on estrogen is not a woman. He is a man with a male physiology on estrogen, and that’s how a physician must approach him.” The very serious problem, she points out, is that people are so ideologically-driven that they want to ignore the medical research.*
> 
> *More than ever, Cretella says, “Medicine is at the point now where we understand that men and women have—at a minimum—6,500 genetic differences between us. And this impacts every cell of our bodies—our organ systems, how diseases manifest, how we diagnose, and even treat in some cases.”
> 
> Treating a person differently based on their feelings isn’t just harmful, she argues, but deadly.* In cases like heart disease, certain drugs can endanger women and not men. Even diagnoses present differently in men and women. The symptoms for certain diseases, she explains, can manifest themselves in completely opposite ways. “And these are nuances that medicine is finally studying and bringing to light. And it’s actually ironic that the transgender movement [is] so anti-science.”
> 
> “There is absolutely no rigorous science that has found a trait called ‘gender identity’ in the brain, body, or DNA. Now sex—I can show you that. It’s in our chromosomes. It’s in the body. It’s in the reproductive organs. Over 99.98 percent of the times, our sexual development is clearly and unambiguously either male or female.” The sex differences, she explains, are real and consequential.
> 
> If she had one message for America, Cretella said, it would be this: “Stick with science.” Thank goodness for us, the president has.


My bold.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/12/10/on-gender-the-science-is-deafening/


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Turdeau needs to read this


Sorry, SINC. You don't actually expect to logic a Prog, do you?


----------



## SINC

Is Calgary's mayor all there?

Meet the mayor's scientists

https://calgarysun.com/2013/09/06/m...ists/wcm/a3e90c98-d415-4c09-8819-3bd663608e78


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Is Calgary's mayor all there?
> 
> Meet the mayor's scientists
> 
> https://calgarysun.com/2013/09/06/m...ists/wcm/a3e90c98-d415-4c09-8819-3bd663608e78


I've had some experience with Pembina. Not impressed.


----------



## FUXL

Souieee Souieee Souiee. Hey pigs any of you Al Bertan types don the yellow jackets in Edmonton last week? Original thinking' y'all.
Anywho, last poll before the holiday break. A very happy holiday to all, except a special Zeig Heil to the yellow jacketers.


----------



## Macfury

Wow--even the CBC notes the precipitous drop in the likelihood of a Liberal victory in recent weeks. Thanks for sharing Jimbo!


----------



## FeXL

This observation, coming from the same Prog idiot who couldn't even come up with his own unique screen name and sig without stealing the concept from someone else.

The iron...



FUXL said:


> Original thinking' y'all.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> _A few more weeks of Ottawa’s expertise and the Liberals might have to scratch up another $1.6 billion to assist struggling drug dealers._​


Comments salient.

From the link inside:

Canada's so silly we can't make money off oil or drugs

Headline's not even close.

Gov'ts are so stupid, they shouldn't be in business in the first place.

What's that old Friedman saw?



> If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand.


Nails it.


----------



## SINC

Green energy dying while Turdeau fiddles. 

https://business.financialpost.com/...as-canada-and-the-world-abandons-green-energy

StatsCan confirms:

https://business.financialpost.com/...hless-green-industries-are-to-canadas-economy


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> It’s the Star, so proceed accordingly.
> 
> _ The extradition dilemma now facing Trudeau and his government is suddenly more complicated. It raises questions of law, politics, international trade and security.
> 
> It is fraught with geopolitical tension.
> 
> That’s because the fate of two Canadian citizens detained this week in China could depend on whether Ottawa hands the Huawei executive over to the U.S. justice system. Former Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig and Canadian businessman Michael Spavor could languish in jail for years awaiting legal processes because China’s foreign ministry has levelled grave accusations against them of harming state security.
> 
> No Americans have been detained in the wake of the U.S. request to extradite Meng, as far as anyone knows.
> 
> “They go after who they think might be vulnerable,” said Cotler._​
> See if you can spot the stunning hypocrisy that arises later in the piece.


Prog hypocrites?! :yikes:

Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Buying us with our own money doesn't work in Alberta, Mr. Trudeau



> If you needed additional evidence that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau doesn’t understand Alberta, you got more of it Tuesday.
> 
> Federal Natural Resources Minister Amarjeet Sohi and International Trade Diversification Minister Jim Carr announced $1.6 billion in _potential_ funding to Alberta’s oilpatch — with emphasis on the word potential.


More:



> “Our government always has and always will stand with the oil and gas sector,” Sohi said.


F'ing liar...

Further:



> What Trudeau and his government don’t understand is Albertans don’t want handouts. They want pipelines and sound policies that don’t scare away capital investment. Instead, on Tuesday, Albertans got more bad policy in the form of federal incentives using our own money.


Finally:



> As recent Statistics Canada figures show, in 2017 Albertans paid $50.3 billion in taxes to the federal government and received $28.5 billion back in federal spending, leaving a whopping $21.8 billion net for the rest of Canada — the largest per-capita contribution to Confederation by far.


One more reason to leave the bastards...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Third Canadian detained in China as legal case of “Communist Princess” continues



> This week, a third Canadian has been arrested amid the continuing legal action against Meng.
> 
> ...
> 
> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau responded to this development with the vim and vigor Legal Insurrection readers would expect.
> 
> [blah, blah-blah, blah, blah, blah]
> 
> Many Canadians were unhappy with the tepid response.


----------



## FeXL

Stasi Canada



> _We have been on Statscan’s call list for about 35 years, although their records only indicate 10. It started at our previous farm with June and December calls demanding livestock inventories, itemized by specific categories. It was never a “convenient” time in all those years.
> 
> On June 28, 1994 we moved the entire farm two miles down the road. On June 30 Statscan was looking for livestock figures despite the septic system backing up, soaking boxes and leaving the tap water suspiciously brown and smelly. My temper boiled over and, for once, they left us alone. Come December, they were back at it._​


What a bunch of bastards.

Comments salient.


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, this one I like.


----------



## SINC

*This was the year things came undone for Trudeau*

https://winnipegsun.com/opinion/col...deau/wcm/a16dc569-3f72-4f68-ad15-94ec1fe4f587


----------



## Rps

Sinc, as I read this article I found it a summary of the current Liberals. If you change the nouns to Trudeau, Liberals, Cabinet......it could easily be a critique of Trudeau and his highly ineffectual government.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...edskins-925a:homepage/story-ans&noredirect=on


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, as I read this article I found it a summary of the current Liberals. If you change the nouns to Trudeau, Liberals, Cabinet......it could easily be a critique of Trudeau and his highly ineffectual government.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...edskins-925a:homepage/story-ans&noredirect=on


Yep, that does indeed paint the same picture of the federal Liberals. :clap:


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> *This was the year things came undone for Trudeau*


Hey, where' that Priapus driving copycat commie, Piggy?

Soooouuuuuiiiieeeeee!!!

Read those stats, Piggy?



> *A sizable majority — 58% of Canadians — disapprove of Justin Trudeau, 38% saying they “strongly disapprove.”*


Trudles is a waste of skin & oxygen & your one of the few who don't know it yet!

Sou!!!!!!!!


----------



## SINC

And then there is this of JT taking a pic of himself watching the burning of our flag. If real, just one more reason to detest him and all he stands for. If photoshopped an example of his respect for our country illustrated.

Remember that a Kingdom is ruled by a king and a Principality is ruled a Prince.

Turdeau, on the other hand rules a country.


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> And then there is this of JT taking a pic of himself watching the burning of our flag. If real, just one more reason to detest him and all he stands for. If photoshopped an example of his respect for our country illustrated.
> 
> Remember that a Kingdom is ruled by a king and a Principality is ruled a Prince.
> 
> Turdeau, on the other hand rules a country.


Is this where we are at? Your hate is so strong you actually believe this could be legit?

Pretty dumb if you ask me...

From Snopes:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> Is this where we are at? Your hate is so strong you actually believe this could be legit?
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty dumb if you ask me...
> 
> 
> 
> From Snopes:




Welcome to today’s ehMac.


----------



## Macfury

He's just trying to make you feel at home, Freddie. For Pete's sake, SINC allowed that the image might have been Photoshopped. If you brought half that level of scrutiny to the trash you import, EhMac could be a much better place. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Welcome to today’s ehMac.


----------



## SINC

Yep, I knew it was photoshopped before I posted it, but it does indeed illustrate the sentiment of a vast majority of Canadians towards JT for what he has done to our country with his recent UN agreement signing and his open border policies, not to mention his trip to India.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> He's just trying to make you feel at home, Freddie. For Pete's sake, SINC allowed that the image might have been Photoshopped. If you brought half that level of scrutiny to the trash you import, EhMac could be a much better place.




Is it possible for you to possibly just ignore something I write for once? The attention from one ehMacer is, quite frankly, a little creepy. It’s like you’re stalking me or something. Bugger off.


----------



## Macfury

I've told you before that I read every post here. Most are reasonable. However, I will not give anyone an open platform to post whatever nonsense enters their heads without exposing obvious flaws in what they are saying. It's not you--it's the lack of care and thought in what you're saying.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Is it possible for you to possibly just ignore something I write for once? The attention from one ehMacer is, quite frankly, a little creepy. It’s like you’re stalking me or something. Bugger off.


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Yep, I knew it was photoshopped before I posted it, but it does indeed illustrate the sentiment of a vast majority of Canadians towards JT for what he has done to our country with his recent UN agreement signing and his open border policies, not to mention his trip to India.


What?

Here's a disgusting photo of our Prime Minister taking a selfie with our flag burning.

"If it's photoshoped" your word: IF

My inference,

"If it is real then you know, that's what I consider par for the course with this Prime Minister".

"If it isn't real then ya it's still how the majority of Canadians feel". Come on!

I guess saying "might" can let you post any garbage and then still get to attach the same sentiment it's trying to elicit.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I've told you before that I read every post here. Most are reasonable. However, I will not give anyone an open platform to post whatever nonsense enters their heads without exposing obvious flaws in what they are saying. It's not you--it's the lack of care and thought in what you're saying.




No, it’s you. It’s like you’re following me, and it has become uncomfortable. Please give me some space.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a disgusting photo of our Prime Minister taking a selfie with our flag burning.
> 
> 
> 
> "If it's photoshoped" your word: IF
> 
> 
> 
> My inference,
> 
> 
> 
> "If it is real then you know, that's what I consider par for the course with this Prime Minister".
> 
> 
> 
> "If it isn't real then ya it's still how the majority of Canadians feel". Come on!
> 
> 
> 
> I guess saying "might" can let you post any garbage and then still get to attach the same sentiment it's trying to elicit.




Exactly. Zero accountability for some posters.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> *This was the year things came undone for Trudeau*
> 
> https://winnipegsun.com/opinion/col...deau/wcm/a16dc569-3f72-4f68-ad15-94ec1fe4f587





SINC said:


> Yep, I knew it was photoshopped before I posted it, but it does indeed illustrate the sentiment of a vast majority of Canadians towards JT for what he has done to our country with his recent UN agreement signing and his open border policies, not to mention his trip to India.





smashedbanana said:


> What?
> 
> Here's a disgusting photo of our Prime Minister taking a selfie with our flag burning.
> 
> "If it's photoshoped" your word: IF
> 
> My inference,
> 
> "If it is real then you know, that's what I consider par for the course with this Prime Minister".
> 
> "If it isn't real then ya it's still how the majority of Canadians feel". Come on!
> 
> I guess saying "might" can let you post any garbage and then still get to attach the same sentiment it's trying to elicit.


From the story posted earlier and shown above:



> *A sizable majority — 58% of Canadians — disapprove of Justin Trudeau, 38% saying they “strongly disapprove.”*


Supports my opinion entirely.


----------



## FeXL

The iron...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Zero accountability for some posters.


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Supports my opinion entirely.


So an opinion poll leads to the argument that a photo shopped picture of our Prime Minister next to our flag burning is somehow representative.

Absolute BS!!

And saying you knew it was photoshopped makes it worse not better. You want all the value of the impact but with an caveat somehow absolving you. 

What nonsense. Make your point without the disgusting fake photo. If he's that bad you don't need it.


----------



## Macfury

No safe spaces on EhMac. That's the end of it. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> No, it’s you. It’s like you’re following me, and it has become uncomfortable. Please give me some space.


----------



## Macfury

You don't seem to have a problem with inaccurate memes, photos and quotes attributed to conservative politicians. Your genteel outrage should cut both ways.



smashedbanana said:


> So an opinion poll leads to the argument that a photo shopped picture of our Prime Minister next to our flag burning is somehow representative.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> You don't seem to have a problem with inaccurate memes, photos and quotes attributed to conservative politicians. Your genteel outrage should cut both ways.


This is not about accuracy. It's an abhorrent presentation period. Show me another Canadian politician of any strata next to a burning Canadian flag and I'll show you the same reaction. 

Speaking of double standards why don't you show Sinc the same level of criticism you've shown Freddie. Rather than jumping in here asking me to defend my position.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> No safe spaces on EhMac. That's the end of it.




No stalking or trolling either, two things you excel at.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> This is not about accuracy. It's an abhorrent presentation period. Show me another Canadian politician of any strata next to a burning Canadian flag and I'll show you the same reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of double standards why don't you show Sinc the same level of criticism you've shown Freddie. Rather than jumping in here asking me to defend my position.




Good question. We’ll see if he can admit he plays favorites.


----------



## FeXL

Freddie, if you find your precious self melting, just leave.



Freddie_Biff said:


> No stalking or trolling either, two things you excel at.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Freddie, if you find your precious self melting, just leave.




Sounds like you encourage stalking and trolling. Interesting reaction.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> This is not about accuracy. It's an abhorrent presentation period. Show me another Canadian politician of any strata next to a burning Canadian flag and I'll show you the same reaction.


So only Canadian politicians next to burning flags? You've surely been silent when Stephen Harper or Jason Kenney are maligned with misinformation.



smashedbanana said:


> Speaking of double standards why don't you show Sinc the same level of criticism you've shown Freddie. Rather than jumping in here asking me to defend my position.


In this case, you had already laid into SINC. I have, in the past, pointed out when a Photoshopped image was unfairly critical of Obama, for example.

However, the liberal/progressive paradigm switched from normal discourse to "won't give an inch" years ago. When I have called out FeXL or SINC on disagreements I might have, I just get a chorus of "see, you admit conservatives are liars." No admission of error on Freddie's part, for example, no matter how far from the truth he strays. 

Also, in most cases what FeXL says doesn't cross the "Liberal Prime Minister in front of burning flag" threshold you set for yourself. The issues don't matter enough to me to examine them further.


----------



## Macfury

When you post publicly on EhMac, or publicly point to other forums you visit, then "stalking" is not the correct term. I think "humiliated by evidence you present yourself" would be the term you may be looking for.

Your definition of "trolling" appears to be "being called out for misinformation or thoughtless, lazy posting." However, if I were actually trolling I would want you to respond. I would actually prefer you don't respond to me at all once you've been outed. The choice is yours, of course.



Freddie_Biff said:


> No stalking or trolling either, two things you excel at.


----------



## FeXL

Just sayin' snowflakes will melt... :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sounds like you encourage stalking and trolling. Interesting reaction.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Just sayin' snowflakes will melt... :lmao:


Are you encouraging melting? This is a progressive outrage!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Are you encouraging melting? This is a progressive outrage!


I'm just sayin' that if Freddie can't stand the heat, he should get the hell out of the kitchen. Perhaps he can go visit one of his safe Prog blogs where everybody agrees & nary a harsh criticism is levelled.

Oh, wait...

They've all gone belly up, haven't they? :lmao::lmao::lmao:

As always, Freddie is merely striking out at whomever is the most recent to call BS on one of his posts. Today it's you, tomorrow it'll be me & SINC the day after.

Rinse, repeat.

Happy New Year, Freddie! beejacon


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I'm just sayin' that if Freddie can't stand the heat, he should get the hell out of the kitchen. Perhaps he can go visit one of his safe Prog blogs where everybody agrees & nary a harsh criticism is levelled.
> 
> Oh, wait...
> 
> They've all gone belly up, haven't they? :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> As always, Freddie is merely striking out at whomever is the most recent to call BS on one of his posts. Today it's you, tomorrow it'll be me & SINC the day after.
> 
> Rinse, repeat.
> 
> Happy New Year, Freddie! beejacon


All he wanted for Christmas was a personal forum to make nonsense posts without anybody calling him on their misinformation, inaccuracy and deceitfulness. Is that too much to ask?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> All he wanted for Christmas was a personal forum to make nonsense posts without anybody calling him on their misinformation, inaccuracy and deceitfulness. Is that too much to ask?


Not at all, somewhere else...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

You two really need to get a life if all you’ve got to talk about is me.


----------



## Macfury

This is just a thin slice of the rich banquet that is my life, Freddie. As I say, I like to break up my work day playing "Whack-A-Mole" every so often.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You two really need to get a life if all you’ve got to talk about is me.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> This is just a thin slice of the rich banquet that is my life, Freddie. As I say, I like to break up my work day playing "Whack-A-Mole" every so often.




You don’t talk about it here. In fact, for the last several posts, all you’ve done is slag me. And yes, that does make you a stalker and a troll. Always the first to respond.


----------



## Macfury

Your posts deserve slagging. If you started putting some effort into what you were posting, I would become bored and go away.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You don’t talk about it here. In fact, for the last several posts, all you’ve done is slag me. And yes, that does make you a stalker and a troll. Always the first to respond.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Your posts deserve slagging. If you started putting some effort into what you were posting, I would become bored and go away.


Stalking

To follow and/or spy on someone you have feelings for. Those feelings need not be of a kind and loving nature. People who stalk are usually obsessed with the stalkee.

Tim: Why are you hiding in that bush? 
John: I'm stalking the girl who lives here!

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Stalking

Trolling

Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.

Guy: "I just found the coolest ninja pencil in existence." 
Other Guy: "I just found the most retarded thread in existence."

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling

Yup, those are exactly the words I intended.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk The Dope's 2018 season.

Trudeau Better Hope Voters Forget

I hope he continues down his colourful path of cranial-rectal inversion for 2019 & convinces even some of the hardcore Progs how much of an idiot he really is.

One Term Juthdin!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk carbon tax "rebates" s'more.

Climate Barbie



> Math is hard.
> 
> _Families in Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Saskatchewan understand we need to do more to protect our environment and the health of our kids and grandkids. Starting next year, with the Climate Action Incentive, families in these provinces will get more money than they pay. pic.twitter.com/RIa80zbTZQ— Catherine McKenna 🇨🇦 (@cathmckenna) December 31, 2018_​
> Lying? That’s easy.


From the comments:



> Idiots will believe it. I met a liberal voter last election who said they were voting liberal for the tax cuts. That’s the depth of stupidity we’re dealing with here folks.


And:



> *So 4 out of 10 win,all the rest of us;”Screw you losers” must be the message from this “amazing” person.*
> For as the idiot boldly states:
> “Families in Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Saskatchewan understand we need to do more to protect our environment and the health of our kids and grandkids. Starting next year, with the Climate Action Incentive, families in these provinces will get more money than they pay. ”
> 
> So obviously the unnamed provinces and the Territories are gonna pay.
> Climate Barbie tells them so.
> 
> Where are the so called fiscally conservative Liberals?
> I believe they never existed,that the media party invented them as a foil for Reform.
> 
> At least after Trudeau Two,if you run across a true Liberal believer,you know they are brain damaged.
> More blows to their cranium will not cause any further inability to function in society.
> 
> Your only solution is to punt them across the new border into Liberal loving safety.


Bold mine.


----------



## Macfury

You have a great sense of your own self-importance Freddie! Don't count on the Urban Dictionary though--it's composed of uncurated contributions from anyone.




Freddie_Biff said:


> Stalking
> 
> To follow and/or spy on someone you have feelings for. Those feelings need not be of a kind and loving nature. People who stalk are usually obsessed with the stalkee.
> 
> Tim: Why are you hiding in that bush?
> John: I'm stalking the girl who lives here!
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Stalking
> 
> Trolling
> 
> Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.
> 
> Guy: "I just found the coolest ninja pencil in existence."
> Other Guy: "I just found the most retarded thread in existence."
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling
> 
> Yup, those are exactly the words I intended.


----------



## FeXL

Does that definition also include persons whose use of the word, "asshole", is legendary?

Jes' askin'...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Trolling
> 
> Being a prick on the internet because you can.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> So only Canadian politicians next to burning flags? You've surely been silent when Stephen Harper or Jason Kenney are maligned with misinformation.


What are you talking about? Jason Kenney? Let's reach way back and talk about some post I didn't comment on?



> In this case, you had already laid into SINC. I have, in the past, pointed out when a Photoshopped image was unfairly critical of Obama, for example.


Who was it posted by I'd like to know.



> However, the liberal/progressive paradigm switched from normal discourse to "won't give an inch" years ago. When I have called out FeXL or SINC on disagreements I might have, I just get a chorus of "see, you admit conservatives are liars." No admission of error on Freddie's part, for example, no matter how far from the truth he strays.


I am not following you here.



> Also, in most cases what FeXL says doesn't cross the "Liberal Prime Minister in front of burning flag" threshold you set for yourself. The issues don't matter enough to me to examine them further.


Sad that you have to say a burning Canadian flag is an arbitrary threshold set by just me. You and everyone should have issue with it.

Let's be objective. 

Freddie is getting roasted constantly by you and Fexl.

Then another member posts an admitted fake photo with terrible imagery. With full entrenchment that's it's justified in that it's how Canadians feel based on an opinion poll? 

What's your reaction? To go after me. The one person who points the terribleness of the post. Double-down on it asking me to explain why I have a reaction to this post and am not policing all the posts. Me the guy with like 531 posts. Reacting to a Canadian Flag burning with a feigned Prime Minister celebrating it??

Very telling...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Does that definition also include persons whose use of the word, "asshole", is legendary?
> 
> 
> 
> Jes' askin'...



Fraid not. Fukcin’ eh, as you would say.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> What are you talking about? Jason Kenney? Let's reach way back and talk about some post I didn't comment on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who was it posted by I'd like to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not following you here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sad that you have to say a burning Canadian flag is an arbitrary threshold set by just me. You and everyone should have issue with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be objective.
> 
> 
> 
> Freddie is getting roasted constantly by you and Fexl.
> 
> 
> 
> Then another member posts an admitted fake photo with terrible imagery. With full entrenchment that's it's justified in that it's how Canadians feel based on an opinion poll?
> 
> 
> 
> What's your reaction? To go after me. The one person who points the terribleness of the post. Double-down on it asking me to explain why I have a reaction to this post and am not policing all the posts. Me the guy with like 531 posts. Reacting to a Canadian Flag burning with a feigned Prime Minister celebrating it??
> 
> 
> 
> Very telling...




Good post, amigo.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> What are you talking about? Jason Kenney? Let's reach way back and talk about some post I didn't comment on?


You don't comment on any posts slagging conservatives, unless you're joining in.



smashedbanana said:


> Who was it posted by I'd like to know.


It was on another forum killed by political correctness.



smashedbanana said:


> I am not following you here.


If I DO criticize a conservative voice, there is no loosening of the strict liberal/progressive wagon-circling around all things left. If I were more likely to criticize something conservative, left-leaning members of this forum would be no more likely to criticize something liberal/progressive. They will simply take the point and note gleefully that I am "attacking my own side."



smashedbanana said:


> Sad that you have to say a burning Canadian flag is an arbitrary threshold set by just me. You and everyone should have issue with it.


It is your arbitrary threshold for defending any politician (though I wonder if you would have jumped in if the photo had featured PM Harper). Frankly, that photo is less offensive to me than Trudeau's actual policies and comments. Telling the New York Times that Canada was the “first postnational state--there is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada" was more offensive to me than that photo.



smashedbanana said:


> Freddie is getting roasted constantly by you and Fexl.


Freddie is constantly posting false information about topics that matter to me. Just like that weird flag-burning photo meant something to you.



smashedbanana said:


> Then another member posts an admitted fake photo with terrible imagery. With full entrenchment that's it's justified in that it's how Canadians feel based on an opinion poll?
> 
> What's your reaction? To go after me. The one person who points the terribleness of the post. Double-down on it asking me to explain why I have a reaction to this post and am not policing all the posts. Me the guy with like 531 posts. Reacting to a Canadian Flag burning with a feigned Prime Minister celebrating it??


If SINC had not allowed it was likely photoshopped, I would not have responded to your post, except to agree with it.


----------



## FeXL

Why? It's freedom of speech.



smashedbanana said:


> Sad that you have to say a burning Canadian flag is an arbitrary threshold set by just me. You and everyone should have issue with it.


----------



## FeXL

'Course not...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Fraid not.


----------



## Macfury

My reaction as well. Flag-burning is not a motherhood issue for me. JT's nation-burning _is_.



FeXL said:


> Why? It's freedom of speech.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> My reaction as well. Flag-burning is not a motherhood issue for me. JT's nation-burning _is_.


That was my real point in posting the flag burning meme. It symbolizes what Turdeau is doing to Canada. And that is what I hate. He ought to be removed for treason.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> That was my real point in posting the flag burning meme. It symbolizes what Turdeau is doing to Canada. And that is what I hate. He ought to be removed for treason.




Boy, no hyperbole there.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> He ought to be removed for treason.


Hell, if all we're looking for is a list of salient reasons why Trudles should be removed from office, basic stupidity is head, shoulders & arse above everything else!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Only an idiot Prog (but I repeat myself) would think it's a good idea for 50 year expats to vote in a Canadian election.

Trudeau clears way for expats to vote in Canadian elections



> My mother reacted as if I had just asked whether aliens had visited.
> 
> In fact, all I had done was ask her if she had ever voted in an election in Britain in the 50 years since she left.
> 
> “Why would I?” she asked.
> 
> My mother left Britain for Canada in 1968 and other than short visits back to see her family, she’s lived in Canada ever since.
> 
> Britain doesn’t currently allow expats to vote but Canada just passed a law allowing that and I wanted to gauge her reaction.
> 
> *She thinks it is silly. So do I.*


Too polite by half...

One Term Juthdin!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Sooouuiiee!!!

Congratulations, Piggy! Yer now the proud owner of a shiny red canoe that you'll never get to use!

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> @SheilaGunnReid — “The purchases Trudeau ordered bureaucrats to make to top-up the existing fleet at his lake house included: One 17 foot prospector canoe specifically in red, one flat water kayak and one river kayak, two paddleboards, a windsurfer, a sailboat, a pontoon boat, and a ski boat”


'Cause cashing in one of those trust fund bonds that the old man left ya to buy yer own water toys is so unlike a Canadian Liberal politician.

Sou!!!


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Boy, no hyperbole there.


Nope, none.

Reread the first post:



SINC said:


> And then there is this of JT taking a pic of himself watching the burning of our flag. If real, just one more reason to detest him and all he stands for. If photoshopped an example of his respect for our country illustrated.
> 
> Remember that a Kingdom is ruled by a king and a Principality is ruled a Prince.
> 
> Turdeau, on the other hand rules a country.


Been stating that since the very first post and his policies on ISIS and immigration support that opinion and a majority of Canadians in poll after poll agree.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> You don't comment on any posts slagging conservatives, unless you're joining in.


Sounds a lot like assumption there to me. I have made it a point to discuss how **** Wynn was. I even posted that I voted conservative in the last provincial election.

But why does that even matter. Am I defending Trudeau? Think about it...



> It was on another forum killed by political correctness.


Another forum? Very relevant then. 



> If I DO criticize a conservative voice, there is no loosening of the strict liberal/progressive wagon-circling around all things left. If I were more likely to criticize something conservative, left-leaning members of this forum would be no more likely to criticize something liberal/progressive. They will simply take the point and note gleefully that I am "attacking my own side."


This seems like a cop out.



> It is your arbitrary threshold for defending any politician (though I wonder if you would have jumped in if the photo had featured PM Harper). Frankly, that photo is less offensive to me than Trudeau's actual policies and comments. Telling the New York Times that Canada was the “first postnational state--there is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada" was more offensive to me than that photo.


As I clearly said in my response show me a photo of any politician in front of a burning flag and I will react the same way. Are you calling me a liar or did you not read that?



> Freddie is constantly posting false information about topics that matter to me. Just like that weird flag-burning photo meant something to you.


There is an element of humour in Freddie's posts. There is no humour here. 



> If SINC had not allowed it was likely photoshopped, I would not have responded to your post, except to agree with it.


You can post at any time.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> Sounds a lot like assumption there to me. I have made it a point to discuss how **** Wynn was. I even posted that I voted conservative in the last provincial election.


I have mentioned before that I consider you a reasonable person to have a discussion with



smashedbanana said:


> This seems like a cop out.


If you've been burned over and over trying to be reasonable, you stop caring whether other people see it as a cop out.



smashedbanana said:


> As I clearly said in my response show me a photo of any politician in front of a burning flag and I will react the same way. Are you calling me a liar or did you not read that?


We're back to the idea that only images of politicians and burning flags deserve a calling out. 



smashedbanana said:


> There is an element of humour in Freddie's posts. There is no humour here.


Freddie's "humour" slices only toward a relentless attack on conservatism.

As we read in Proverbs:

_Just as a braggart casts words like sharp arrows of death, so is the man that deceives his neighbor, and when it is known, says, “I was just joking.”
_



smashedbanana said:


> You can post at any time.


Again, the photo was ridiculous and was already identified by SINC as possibly photoshopped. What do you want me to do--declare it to be photoshopped again? I doubt anyone believed it to be real.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> If I were more likely to criticize something conservative, left-leaning members of this forum would be no more likely to criticize something liberal/progressive.


In the distant past I extensively argued basically every point from any side I saw fit, and observed the same thing you have. Added to this was the lack of decency. Everybody had their rude moments, but a few left-leaning contributors were far more likely to be indecent, and it was usually just left alone by their ideological "peers". 

If you want an example that isn't from the distant past, see how readily a couple posters throw around accusations of fascism or "leaning" towards it, as opposed to simple "you're an idiot" type insults that people of every point of view use. Then look for those who criticize the former.

Current practices are closer to even, albeit in an ugly way. Even can make people uncomfortable if they are accustomed to being favoured. Check your privilege! beejacon


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I have mentioned before that I consider you a reasonable person to have a discussion with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you've been burned over and over trying to be reasonable, you stop caring whether other people see it as a cop out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're back to the idea that only images of politicians and burning flags deserve a calling out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freddie's "humour" slices only toward a relentless attack on conservatism.
> 
> 
> 
> As we read in Proverbs:
> 
> 
> 
> _Just as a braggart casts words like sharp arrows of death, so is the man that deceives his neighbor, and when it is known, says, “I was just joking.”
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the photo was ridiculous and was already identified by SINC as possibly photoshopped. What do you want me to do--declare it to be photoshopped again? I doubt anyone believed it to be real.




For SINC to post a photo of Trudeau burning a flag, especially suspecting that it was photoshopped, and then to use that “evidence” to suggest that Trudeau is treasonous is reprehensible. It destroys credibility. The only thing emerging from SINC’s mouth should be, “sorry, I effed up royally.” Where’s the—what’s the phrase—hue and cry from the right regarding this obvious error in judgement?


----------



## SINC

Turdeau is by far the worst PM the country ever had and people even in MSM, are finally catching on. I purposely used the photo to bring that fact to light. No error in judgement, rather an attempt to shock Canadians who still support this traitor to our country. I make no apology, nor do I retract my view of this brain dead politician who has no regard for our culture.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Turdeau is by far the worst PM the country ever had and people even in MSM, are finally catching on. I purposely used the photo to bring that fact to light. No error in judgement, rather an attempt to shock Canadians who still support this traitor to our country. I make no apology, nor do I retract my view of this brain dead politician who has no regard for our culture.




Fine, if that’s the credibility you wish to have. That’s the problem with lying; why should anyone trust what you post from now on?


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Turdeau is by far the worst PM the country ever had and people even in MSM, are finally catching on. I purposely used the photo to bring that fact to light. No error in judgement, rather an attempt to shock Canadians who still support this traitor to our country. I make no apology, nor do I retract my view of this brain dead politician who has no regard for our culture.


It was a dumb post and this an even dumber explanation.

Trudeau has dug his own grave.

You don't need to post something that shows an utter disrespect to the office, the nation and our national symbol.

If you really did think it's fake and even though you clearly said "IF" then it has no value whatsoever in any context. 

If you did think it's real or more likely wanted others to be shocked into thinking it's real then it's lies and poorly researched. To quote Fexl, "a post that can be taken apart by a twelve year old". You should receive the same critique Freddie does in that case. But of course silence. Because 8 years ago or whatever this was a progressively driven forum or something so everything right gets a pass in order to overcorrect forever or whatever..


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> Because 8 years ago or whatever this was a progressively driven forum or something so everything right gets a pass in order to overcorrect forever or whatever..


It started then--continues today.


----------



## SINC

One can only respect an office when the holder honours the office. Trudeau deserves no respect nor does the office as long as he continues to foul it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> One can only respect an office when the holder honours the office. Trudeau deserves no respect nor does the office as long as he continues to foul it.




This isn’t about Trudeau, Don. It’s about you.


----------



## SINC

Sorry Frank, it's not about me. It's all Trudeau and my opinion of him and his performance as a PM.


----------



## Beej

smashedbanana said:


> in order to overcorrect forever or whatever..


What do you mean by overcorrect? For example, have you been even handed in pointing out bad behaviour? 

From what I"ve seen, this is not what over correction looks like, although it may feel that way if you are accustomed to something else.


----------



## eMacMan

Been avoiding commenting on Trudeau's flaming finger of self incrimination for the same reason I have avoided saying anything about Freddie's numerous weak kneed memes. All fall miles short of factual reality and I take none of them at face value. 

That said I would paint Turdeau and the Harpoon with the same brush. I believe both acted in the interest of their globalist and/or corporate puppet Meißters to the detriment of Canada and its citizens. The meme Don posted may miss the mark by being blatantly photo-shopped. That said I do think the meme makes a not so subtle point that the Hairdo is completely self-aware of his betrayal of our nation.

As to whether subverting facts to make a point aids or defeats ones cause, depends largely on the reaction it causes. I think those who share the view will see the point being made, and feel it is enhanced by the presentation. Whereas those who do not share a particular view will present an obviously false presentation as reason to discredit the message behind a meme.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Been avoiding commenting on Trudeau's flaming finger of self incrimination for the same reason I have avoided saying anything about Freddie's numerous weak kneed memes. All fall miles short of factual reality and I take none of them at face value.
> 
> That said I would paint Turdeau and the Harpoon with the same brush. I believe both acted in the interest of their globalist and/or corporate puppet Meißters to the detriment of Canada and its citizens. The meme Don posted may miss the mark by being blatantly photo-shopped. That said I do think the meme makes a not so subtle point that the Hairdo is completely self-aware of his betrayal of our nation.
> 
> As to whether subverting facts to make a point aids or defeats ones cause, depends largely on the reaction it causes. I think those who share the view will see the point being made, and feel it is enhanced by the presentation. Whereas those who do not share a particular view will present an obviously false presentation as reason to discredit the message behind a meme.


"Freddie's numerous weak kneed memes?" Care to share an example?


----------



## Macfury

Don't do it eMacMan--it will make him think he's popular.



Freddie_Biff said:


> "Freddie's numerous weak kneed memes?" Care to share an example?


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> "Freddie's numerous weak kneed memes?" Care to share an example?


You focused in on the least relevant sentence in my post, clearly illustrating the main point I was trying to make. Need I say more? The question is rhetorical, you kneadn't rise to the occasion.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan:



> _Been avoiding commenting on Trudeau's flaming finger of self incrimination for the same reason i have avoided saying anything about Freddie's numerous weak kneed memes. All fall miles short of factual reality and i take none of them at face value.
> 
> That said I would paint Turdeau and the harpoon with the same brush. I believe both acted in the interest of their globalist and/or corporate puppet meißters to the detriment of Canada and its citizens. *The meme Don posted may miss the mark by being blatantly photo-shopped. That said I do think the meme makes a not so subtle point that the hairdo is completely self-aware of his betrayal of our nation.
> 
> As to whether subverting facts to make a point aids or defeats ones cause, depends largely on the reaction it causes. I think those who share the view will see the point being made, and feel it is enhanced by the presentation. Whereas those who do not share a particular view will present an obviously false presentation as reason to discredit the message behind a meme.*_


*This nails it exactly.*


----------



## smashedbanana

eMacMan said:


> As to whether subverting facts to make a point aids or defeats ones cause, depends largely on the reaction it causes. I think those who share the view will see the point being made, and feel it is enhanced by the presentation. Whereas those who do not share a particular view will present an obviously false presentation as reason to discredit the message behind a meme.


So basically what you are saying here is post anything as false and as shocking as you want the perpetrates a preconceived general problem that one has with the subject or person. Those who also have an issue with the subject/person will say high five I agree that is a terrible subject or person I don't care how it's presented. And the rest of the group will just say that's a false picture so I still like the subject or person just fine. And I have no opinion on the poster whatesoever.

Sounds like a colossal waste of a forum.

But I guess on the flip side Freddie go to town. Post as many memes as possible, the less accurate the better. There is an agreed to silence that will be an amazing time for all.


----------



## FeXL

<snort> So what would change?



smashedbanana said:


> But I guess on the flip side Freddie go to town. Post as many memes as possible, the less accurate the better.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> <snort> So what would change?


So angry all the time.

Did the villagers manage to break down the gate and are heading your way?


----------



## Macfury

If Freddie had posted the Trudeau photo I would likely have left it alone. He posts false and shocking information so often that it's a better use of my time to respond only to those posts that are meaningful to me--just as that flag shot seemed to get you riled up. 




smashedbanana said:


> So basically what you are saying here is post anything as false and as shocking as you want the perpetrates a preconceived general problem that one has with the subject or person. Those who also have an issue with the subject/person will say high five I agree that is a terrible subject or person I don't care how it's presented. And the rest of the group will just say that's a false picture so I still like the subject or person just fine. And I have no opinion on the poster whatesoever.
> 
> Sounds like a colossal waste of a forum.
> 
> But I guess on the flip side Freddie go to town. Post as many memes as possible, the less accurate the better. There is an agreed to silence that will be an amazing time for all.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> If Freddie had posted the Trudeau photo I would likely have left it alone. He posts false and shocking information so often that it's a better use of my time to respond only to those posts that are meaningful to me--just as that flag shot seemed to get you riled up.


And if you had not asked me to justify my reaction this would have been a 1 poster by me. But it's now a big woopty doo about objectivity and who gets to criticize what.


----------



## Macfury

I was curious as to why you felt it necessary to expose such a feeble photo that SINC had already declared to be suspect. It was because you were triggered by flag burning.

Everyone gets to criticize anything. I think I'm as objective as anyone could be expected to be, but I can't correct every fool who posts. Only the posts featuring issues that are meaningful to me. 

(FWIW I told Freddie he did a good job in confronting FeXL's post about the supposed 10-foot-wall around his house.)



smashedbanana said:


> And if you had not asked me to justify my reaction this would have been a 1 poster by me. But it's now a big woopty doo about objectivity and who gets to criticize what.


----------



## FeXL

Angry?

Did you miss the <snort>?

As in, ROTFLMAO? :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Now, back to the original question: What would Freddie have to change to make the memes he posts even less accurate than they already are?

Answer: He'd have to dig pretty damned deep to find memes any less accurate than the ones he currently uses.



smashedbanana said:


> So angry all the time.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Angry?
> {/QUOTE]
> 
> Amazes me that people mistake my glee for anger! A great game of Freddie Whack-a-Mole is great for the constitution!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> You focused in on the least relevant sentence in my post, clearly illustrating the main point I was trying to make. Need I say more? The question is rhetorical, you kneadn't rise to the occasion.




In other words, no you can’t cite an example. You also can’t admit you’re wrong. Thanks for the effort.


----------



## FeXL

When was the last time you admitted you were wrong, Freddie?

Jes' askin'...



Freddie_Biff said:


> You also can’t admit you’re wrong.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> When was the last time you admitted you were wrong, Freddie?
> 
> Jes' askin'...


I know it's early in the year, but asking eMacMan to prove that his memes are weak may stand as the most memorable Freddie post of 2019.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I know it's early in the year, but asking eMacMan to prove that his memes are weak may stand as the most memorable Freddie post of 2019.


Agreed.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, where's my Priapus drivin', porcine Prog pouter, Piggy?

Soooouuuuiiieeee!

A taxpayer-funded helipad for PM's cottage?



> It’s the type of thing you would expect for an American president, maybe even a Wall Street executive heading out to his summer home in the Hamptons, but a Canadian prime minister?
> 
> Not really.
> 
> It appears Justin Trudeau wants to be flown from Ottawa to his official cottage in the Gatineau Hills via helicopter.
> 
> Documents obtained under Access to Information laws show that in the summer of 2017, there were serious discussions about installing a helipad at Harrington Lake, the official cottage of Canada’s prime ministers.


Hey, a helipad here, a coupla kayaks, canoes & boats there, soon yer talking real entitlement!

Sou!!!


----------



## SINC

*Rex Murphy: How the Liberal carbon tax is not unlike a $2,000 cat door

Much show, little impact. What is the point of freezing Alberta's economy so that China and India can start coal plants by the dozen?*

Ol' Rex nails it in this one:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/re...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1546624810


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I know it's early in the year, but asking eMacMan to prove that his memes are weak may stand as the most memorable Freddie post of 2019.


It was obviously a double down on a clumsy attempt at deflection. Not sure from what Freddie was attempting to deflect attention. It was either this:


> That said I do think the meme makes a not so subtle point that the Hairdo is completely self-aware of his betrayal of our nation.


or this:


> As to whether subverting facts to make a point aids or defeats ones cause, depends largely on the reaction it causes. I think those who share the view will see the point being made, and feel it is enhanced by the presentation. Whereas those who do not share a particular view will present an obviously false presentation as reason to discredit the message behind a meme.


Either way if Freddie would like for me to offer comments on his future memes, I will reluctantly oblige, but I do feel there are better uses for my time.


----------



## SINC

Yep, this lady gets it entirely. Trudeau, not so much.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> It was obviously a double down on a clumsy attempt at deflection. Not sure from what Freddie was attempting to deflect attention. It was either this:
> 
> 
> or this:
> 
> 
> Either way if Freddie would like for me to offer comments on his future memes, I will reluctantly oblige, but I do feel there are better uses for my time.




You’re the one that made the claims about memes I’ve shared; it’s your responsibility to back them up. Or apologize and admit you were wrong. You’ve made reference to “Freddie’s numerous weak kneed memes,” and you haven’t given an example of even one. Talk about weak kneed. Talk about a cowardly ad hominem attack.


----------



## Macfury

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Check the comments on Justin's Christmas message. Someone at the CBC will find coal in their stocking for leaving the comments section untended.


----------



## FeXL

The iron...



Freddie_Biff said:


> ...it’s your responsibility to back them up.


Once again, Freddie, when, was the last time you admitted you were wrong on these boards & apologized?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Or apologize and admit you were wrong.


Ummm... All of them?



Freddie_Biff said:


> You’ve made reference to “Freddie’s numerous weak kneed memes,” and you haven’t given an example of even one.


Once again, the iron...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Talk about a cowardly ad hominem attack.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The iron...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, Freddie, when, was the last time you admitted you were wrong on these boards & apologized?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm... All of them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, the iron...




Whatever you say, Mr. “the Obamas have a 10 foot wall around their house.”


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> You’re the one that made the claims about memes I’ve shared; it’s your responsibility to back them up. Or apologize and admit you were wrong. You’ve made reference to “Freddie’s numerous weak kneed memes,” and you haven’t given an example of even one. Talk about weak kneed. Talk about a cowardly ad hominem attack.


Since you insist. 
https://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/99741-american-political-thread-1836.html#post2677174
So why the clumsy and now proven false attempt to deflect attention away from the meat of my original post? Just another cowardly ad hominem attack?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Since you insist.
> https://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/99741-american-political-thread-1836.html#post2677174
> So why the clumsy and now proven false attempt to deflect attention away from the meat of my original post? Just another cowardly ad hominem attack?



Sense: you make no.


----------



## Macfury

Sense: he makes plenty of. Understanding: you have none of.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sense: you make no.


----------



## FeXL

<snort>

Freddie, for once in yer sad, pitiful life, it's not the size that matters...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

'Sides, yer hardly one to be criticizing anybody else about numerical accuracy, Mr. 40% wage reduction...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Whatever you say, Mr. “the Obamas have a 10 foot wall around their house.”


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> <snort>
> 
> 
> 
> Freddie, for once in yer sad, pitiful life, it's not the size that matters...
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Sides, yer hardly one to be criticizing anybody else about numerical accuracy, Mr. 40% wage reduction...




You claimed Trump was right about a 10 four wall around the Obama’s house. You can either admit you were wrong or live with the shame of disseminating painfully wrong information. Don’t try to wiggle out of it by deflecting to a pay cut argument that you don’t understand.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> You claimed Trump was right about a 10 four wall around the Obama’s house. You can either admit you were wrong or live with the shame of disseminating painfully wrong information. *Don’t try to wiggle out of it by deflecting to a pay cut argument that you don’t understand.*


That HE doesn't understand?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> That HE doesn't understand?
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


 I explained it to you once Don that Klein explicitly explained that the cut was going to be temporary for one year and that we were promised a return to our old wage the following year, after the budget was balanced. It's what your hero Klein said. You said you didn't realize that. Now apparently how easy you've forgotten again. And you dare to criticize my grasp of numbers.


----------



## FeXL

_The article_ claimed Trump said Jug Ears shack had 10 foot walls.

_I_ claimed that Progs were always complaining about walls when often they had walls of their own.

Once again, Freddie, you can't discern between truth, fiction, cause, effect, or anything else. If you're going to make an accusation, at least try to get the facts correct.

In addition, you accusing me about "disseminating painfully wrong information" is certainly the pot calling the kettle black.

As to the balance of your garbage, SINC summed it up rather nicely...



Freddie_Biff said:


> You claimed Trump was right about a 10 four wall around the Obama’s house. You can either admit you were wrong or live with the shame of disseminating painfully wrong information.


----------



## FeXL

Why, yes. Yes, I do.

What's the difference between percent & a percentage point, Freddie?



Freddie_Biff said:


> And you dare to criticize my grasp of numbers.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> I explained it to you once Don that Klein explicitly explained that the cut was going to be temporary for one year and that we were promised a return to our old wage the following year, after the budget was balanced. It's what your hero Klein said. You said you didn't realize that. Now apparently how easy you've forgotten again. And you dare to criticize my grasp of numbers.


I do not really care what happened, it still will never change the fact that it was a 5% cut. Period. Simple math cannot be disputed.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> I do not really care what happened, it still will never change the fact that it was a 5% cut. Period. Simple math cannot be disputed.


Unless of course you are using the new math. Sadly his reality recognition abilities have been recently proven to be much on a par with his math skills. I have no issue with either until he tries to force others to accept his flawed conclusions.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I do not really care what happened, it still will never change the fact that it was a 5% cut. Period. Simple math cannot be disputed.




Good thing you’re not an arbitrator. You would have no clue as to how much to award after a 5% cut that last eight years.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> I have no issue with either until he tries to force others to accept his flawed conclusions.


Like, say, his _students_?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Like, say, his _students_?




Hey FeXL, what do you do for a living? It’s only fair that I should get to know what you do if you’re going to take cowardly jabs at me.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey FeXL, what do you do for a living? It’s only fair that I should get to know what you do if you’re going to take cowardly jabs at me.


Speaking of altered reality perception. The fact that you have chosen to reveal your profession, in no way obligates anyone else to reveal to reveal theirs. How you could even remotely think it does is a pure marvel of defective reasoning. 

That said, I am sure FeXL has indeed made that revelation. Of course he is in no way obliged to compensate for your inability to dredge that information up from your memory banks.


Dare I ask if you believe reality shows on TV have any relationship whatsoever to reality?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Speaking of of altered reality perception. The fact that you have chosen to reveal your profession, in no way obligates anyone else to reveal to reveal theirs. How you could even remotely think it does is a pure marvel of defective reasoning.
> 
> Dare I ask if you believe reality shows on TV have any relationship whatsoever to reality?


It also doesn't give anyone else a right to be a prick about it. So much for dealing with grownups.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> It also doesn't give anyone else a right to be a prick about it. So much for dealing with grownups.


The irony!

Is that the bottle speaking or perhaps a whiff of Turdeau Bud?


----------



## smashedbanana

This discussion has gotten very personal. Also it seems like like a gang up..

Any chance we can just back to yelling about memes and politics?


----------



## Macfury

Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey FeXL, what do you do for a living? It’s only fair that I should get to know what you do if you’re going to take cowardly jabs at me.


Check your last rant about this subject and follow it down for the answer, which you should already know by now:



Freddie_Biff said:


> And again you dodge the question. What is your occupation, FeXL, since you seem to think you're in a position to lecture me about my occupation? Let's level the playing field. Answer mine and I'll answer yours.


https://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/94672-canadian-political-thread-2081.html#post2501514


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> This discussion has gotten very personal. Also it seems like like a gang up..
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance we can just back to yelling about memes and politics?




Gladly. Welcome to the dark underside of ehMac.


----------



## wwj

Of course, you're all just joking . . . right?


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Good thing you’re not an arbitrator. You would have no clue as to how much to award after a 5% cut that last eight years.


Sure I do. 5% one time in year one. Makes no difference how long it stayed in effect. Cut 5% in the first year and nothing more in the following seven years. Pretty simple, eh?


----------



## FeXL

Do you have Alzheimers, Freddie? 

Seriously. We went over this just a few months ago.

And, it's not a cowardly jab. It was full display on a public board. In addition, if you think I'm hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, I'd be more than happy to tell you the exact same thing to your face.

Going to be in Edmonchuk in a coupla months for a v-ball tournament. Wanna meet?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Hey FeXL, what do you do for a living? It’s only fair that I should get to know what you do if you’re going to take cowardly jabs at me.


----------



## FeXL

Whatever you say, Mr. Assoholic...



Freddie_Biff said:


> So much for dealing with grownups.


----------



## FeXL

The dark underside of ehMac is not the personal attacks. That's been going on for years & started with the Progs.

It's the Progs, period...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Welcome to the dark underside of ehMac.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Sure I do. 5% one time in year one. Makes no difference how long it stayed in effect. Cut 5% in the first year and nothing more in the following seven years. Pretty simple, eh?




Nope. The arbitrator eventually settled on 14% after eight years. Perhaps with your superior math skills you can explain how they came up with that determination if you think your reasoning is so flawless.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Do you have Alzheimers, Freddie?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously. We went over this just a few months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> And, it's not a cowardly jab. It was full display on a public board. In addition, if you think I'm hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, I'd be more than happy to tell you the exact same thing to your face.
> 
> 
> 
> Going to be in Edmonchuk in a coupla months for a v-ball tournament. Wanna meet?




Meet with you? Why would I want to subject myself to your brand of abuse in person? Why would anyone? You’re bad enough online.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Whatever you say, Mr. Assoholic...




Hypocrite.


----------



## FeXL

Attention, Progs: Do not, I repeat, do _not_ click on the enclosed link. Inside is a report from Rebel Media & your head will explode. You've been warned.

Hey, Piggy!!!

Sooouuuiiiieeee!!!

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!

Zip lines. Tree houses. Oh, my!

The entitled just want their entitlements.

Sou!!!


----------



## FeXL

Yep.

Just to prove to you I'm not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. beejacon

Now who's the coward?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Meet with you?


----------



## FeXL

Your word, not mine.

And, I still don't know WTH it means.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Hypocrite.


----------



## smashedbanana

Ya, so no chance of getting back to grown up talk I guess.

Good work boys.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, FeXL is right. You've made the same demand and received the same answer several times already. Nobody is hiding anything.



FeXL said:


> Do you have Alzheimers, Freddie?
> 
> Seriously. We went over this just a few months ago.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Hypocrite.


Freddie please take the time to look that word up in the dictionary. 

Hint: It does not mean someone elses failure to live according to a set of standards you demand from them.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Freddie, FeXL is right. You've made the same demand and received the same answer several times already. Nobody is hiding anything.


Apparently he doesn't recall asking me how much for a session for his "friend"...

I certainly recall the answer! :lmao:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to prove to you I'm not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. beejacon
> 
> 
> 
> Now who's the coward?




You are repulsive to me as a person. Why on earth would I ever wish to spend my time meeting with you? You are seriously delusional.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> Ya, so no chance of getting back to grown up talk I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Good work boys.




Some people seem to prefer the mudslinging over the actual conversation. It’s unfortunate.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Freddie please take the time to look that word up in the dictionary.
> 
> Hint: It does not mean someone elses failure to live according to a set of standards you demand from them.




So in your mind, it’s perfectly acceptable for FeXL to use the word “asshole” but wrong for me to do the same. Interesting. Perhaps you should read that dictionary yourself.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> So in your mind, it’s perfectly acceptable for FeXL to use the word “asshole” but wrong for me to do the same. Interesting. Perhaps you should read that dictionary yourself.


FeXL claims to enjoy the Wyoming style of debate, full contact and no holds barred. Therefore when he resorts to vulgarity it is well within the standards he claims to live by. Therefore no hypocrisy.

You vociferously demand a civil style of debate. Therefore you are being a hypocrite when you resort to vulgarity. It is quite acceptable for FeXL or anyone else to attempt (and usually fail) to bring this to your attention. 

For a less personal example consider politicians. With very few exceptions they are totally corrupt, liars, thieves, sociopaths, psychopaths and whatever other adjective you care to attach to these very dregs of society. As long as they do not claim to be exempt from these various foibles, they can point them out in others without being in the least bit hypocritical.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> FeXL claims to enjoy the Wyoming style of debate, full contact and no holds barred. Therefore when he resorts to vulgarity it is well within the standards he claims to live by. Therefore no hypocrisy.
> 
> You vociferously demand a civil style of debate. Therefore you are being a hypocrite when you resort to vulgarity. It is quite acceptable for FeXL or anyone else to attempt (and usually fail) to bring this to your attention.


This has been explained to Freddie time and time again. Either he doesn't understand it, or reads it and forgets immediately.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> This has been explained to Freddie time and time again. Either he doesn't understand it, or reads it and forgets immediately.



I wonder if the problem is he does not recall, or if he simply does not bother to read it at all?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> I wonder if the problem is he does not recall, or if he simply does not bother to read it at all?




There is no problem. He simply has a higher standard for communication than you do. He also has no use for trolls. That is all.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I wonder if the problem is he does not recall, or if he simply does not bother to read it at all?


There's your answer. A complete non sequitur produced under a higher standard of communication.


----------



## FeXL

Once again, you miss the mark by a mile.

I didn't call you an asshole, Freddie. I called you "Mr. Assoholic". Why? 'Cause you invented the term! It's like somebody who buys a pair of colourful sunglasses & is now known as Mr. Orange Sunglasses. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, once, again, even though I asked you to define the term, I never got an answer. Hell, it may be a compliment!

'Sides, even if I had called you that name, didn't you post recently that you are part & parcel of a forum where you call each other that name all the time & it's not meant as a slight?



Freddie_Biff said:


> So in your mind, it’s perfectly acceptable for FeXL to use the word “asshole” but wrong for me to do the same.


----------



## smashedbanana

eMacMan said:


> FeXL claims to enjoy the Wyoming style of debate....


Why are you speaking for another member?

This is happening repeatedly in this thread.

And talking about another member in the third person between two members.

This is getting off the rails.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> Why are you speaking for another member?
> 
> This is happening repeatedly in this thread.
> 
> And talking about another member in the third person between two members.
> 
> This is getting off the rails.


Eventually, it gets tiresome to see the same person get his feathers up over things that have long been discussed and settled. We all offer the same information that has been offered time and again--the meaning of the word "hypocrisy" and FeXL's occupation for example. Just depend on who sees the same repetitive question first.

I believe Freddie has has demanded--and been supplied with--FeXL's occupation about four times now. He has become infuriated that people have seen his posts elsewhere--after he provided the location of those posts. He is angry that his appearance is known--after he posted his own photo on EhMac Eventually, answering these questions and demands becomes a shared community burden.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> Why are you speaking for another member?
> 
> 
> 
> This is happening repeatedly in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> And talking about another member in the third person between two members.
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting off the rails.




I asked these very same questions months, even years ago to deaf ears. Certain people feel entitled to act on this forum with no decorum, no respect for the feelings of other members. They act as though it’s their right to “gang up.” In the absence of any kind of moderators, it’s surprising what people will try to get away with.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> There is no problem. He simply has a *higher* standard for communication than you do. He also has no use for trolls. That is all.



Guess that explains why your responses seem to relate so poorly to that which you quote. It must be almost impossible maintain unscrambled neural circuits when Mary Jane is clouding the issue.


----------



## Macfury

Nobody listens, or gives you special treatment, eh? Join the rest of the world, snowflake!



Freddie_Biff said:


> I asked these very same questions months, even years ago to deaf ears. Certain people feel entitled to act on this forum with no decorum, no respect for the feelings of other members. They act as though it’s their right to “gang up.” In the absence of any kind of moderators, it’s surprising what people will try to get away with.


----------



## FeXL

If it's accurate, why not?

If it's not, it'll be corrected.



smashedbanana said:


> Why are you speaking for another member?


----------



## FeXL

It's not only our privilege but in our best interests to keep these boards BS free, Freddie. Curious how ehMac has outlasted all those moderated, BS-filled Prog boards, no?



Freddie_Biff said:


> They act as though it’s their right to “gang up.”


Door's open, Freddie. You can leave for richer, moderated, short-lived pastures any time you want.

In addition, you of all people, feigning innocence on these boards.



Freddie_Biff said:


> In the absence of any kind of moderators, it’s surprising what people will try to get away with.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, it's clear that you've been demanding a safe space that will allow you to broadcast and peddle your unremitting BS without challenge. That's called a "blog" and not a "public forum." When you receive mass criticism it isn't people "ganging up" on you. It's survival of the fittest in the marketplace of ideas. If you're only expressing an opinion on The Walking Dead, or the Golden Globes, you're being left alone.


----------



## SINC

Now here is a meme that strikes a chord with truth IMHO.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Poll suggests public support for immigration is divided



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau may want to claim that those raising concerns about Canada’s immigration system are fear mongering racists but Canadians aren’t buying it.
> 
> A new poll from Ipsos shows that while support for immigration overall is up, concerns about how the system is being run remain and stretch across party lines.


More:



> In 2019 we can expect Trudeau to continue to imply racist motivations to anyone that thinks that is the right way to go.


'Cause I give a rat's ass about what a substitute drama teacher thinks...


----------



## FeXL

~Becauth ith's 2015!

How the Liberal carbon tax is not unlike a $2,000 cat door



> There is no folly too abject, no absurdity too lavish, no pretence too hollow, not to serve as a flag for superior environmental “concern.” Show concern and who cares for the consequences? Take Justin Trudeau’s utterly ineffectual and misguided “carbon tax.” There is so much that is deceptive about this plan, and so much more that is wrong, it may be viewed quite easily as the government equivalent of a cat door. Much show, null impact.


Aw, look at the pitcher. It's Porno Willie, Climate Barbie & some post national feminist substitute drama teacher...

More:



> If you want to put a tax on oil and gas, put a tax on oil and gas and call it that. If a government is ashamed or afraid to call a carbon tax a carbon tax, then it probably shouldn’t impose one. But if the case for so doing is really, really weak, then you probably think you can get away with putting carbon dioxide in the same toxic, smelly list with *human sewage*, chemical spills, bacteriological waste and every malodorous assault on the human senses.


Bold mine.

If, _if_, Climate Barbie is _truly concerned_ about _pollution_, shouldn't she be addressing the raw sewage being dumped into the St Lawrence by Montreal, Quebec City, etc., etc., etc., and into Burrard Inlet by Vancouver, among other Prog city violations?

Jes' askin'...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> If, _if_, Climate Barbie is _truly concerned_ about _pollution_, shouldn't she be addressing the raw sewage being dumped into the St Lawrence by Montreal, Quebec City, etc., etc., etc., and into Burrard Inlet by Vancouver, among other Prog city violations?
> 
> Jes' askin'...


Amen brother, Amen!


----------



## FUXL

First Souiee of the new year for the yellowbellied minority. Souiee, Souiee, Souiee. 
Another aggregate poll pigs!


----------



## Macfury

How's business Jimbo? Shake the hands of any Queens lately?


----------



## SINC

Another CBC poll, not even near reality.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Another CBC poll, not even near reality.


C'mon! Piggy's gettin' his money's worth...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

For reasons they refused to explain...



> _...federal prosecutors and the RCMP stayed charges against Silver, and Caixuan Qin and Jian Jun Zhu, the Vancouver couple that allegedly ran the operation, alleged underground bankers in Richmond, B.C., estimated to be laundering over $1-billion per year.
> 
> Federal prosecutors mistakenly exposed the identity of a police informant who they feared could have been killed if the case proceeded, Global News has learned._​


More:



> So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Feds dropped charges against these folks... *because they feel they're capable of murdering Crown witnesses*? Just spitballin' here, but that seems like a terrible precedent.


Links' bold.

Well, in that case...


----------



## SINC

*Frustration with Trudeau rises to new levels*

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/frustration-with-trudeau-rises-to-new-levels/


----------



## SINC

The Turdeau Libs are far out of touch with Canadians.

*Senators vote to remove random roadside alcohol testing from impaired driving bill*

https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...de-alcohol-testing-from-impaired-driving-bill


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> The Turdeau Libs are far out of touch with Canadians.


Further on this bull$h!t.

Police in Canada can now demand breath samples in bars, at home



> It may sound unbelievable, but Canada’s revised laws on impaired driving could see police demand breath samples from people in bars, restaurants, or even at home. And if you say no, you could be arrested, face a criminal record, ordered to pay a fine, and subjected to a driving suspension.
> 
> You could be in violation of the impaired driving laws even two hours after you’ve been driving. Now, the onus is on drivers to prove they weren’t impaired when they were on the road.
> 
> “It’s ridiculous, it’s basically criminalizing you having a drink at your kitchen table,” Paul Doroshenko, a Vancouver criminal defence lawyer who specializes in impaired driving cases, told Global News.
> 
> “If you start to drink after you get home, the police show up at your door, they can arrest you, detain you, take you back to the (police station) and you can be convicted because your blood alcohol concentration was over 80 milligrams (per 100 millilitres of blood) in the two hours after you drove.”


Guess it's time to park that bottle of Everclear by the front door. Doorbell rings, you answer, it's the cops, crack the top & take a good, long pull.

Problem solved...


----------



## FeXL

Per the Prime Groper.

Liberals' sexual harassment training mandated by Kokanee grope PM hypocritical



> You have to wonder if the female Liberal staffers experienced the sexual harassment training differently than the male Liberal staffers did.
> 
> On Wednesday, political staff from the prime minister’s office and those of cabinet ministers attended a mandatory training session “on harassment prevention and bystander intervention.”
> 
> It comes more than a year after a top staffer in Trudeau’s office resigned amid allegations of inappropriate activity and of course about six months after Trudeau admitted to the Kokanee grope.
> 
> While House of Commons staff and all political parties have taken to providing training to their MPs and staff on this issue, *this is all a bit much considering Trudeau’s own history.*


Bold mine.

Prog hypocrisy: a feature, not a bug.


----------



## CubaMark

*With good reason, Trudeau gets a message at his town hall...*

*'You're a liar': Indigenous people voice anger at Trudeau town hall in B.C.*

Indigenous people voiced their anger and frustration with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Wednesday at a chaotic town hall in Kamloops, B.C., loudly interrupting him to condemn the arrests of protesters at a pipeline blockade.

While Trudeau was answering a question on accountability for the oil and gas industry, a man who identified himself as Will George stood up and began to yell that the prime minister had lied about wanting reconciliation with First Nations.

"You're getting people arrested," George said. "You're a liar and a weak leader. What do you tell your children?"

Trudeau calmly asked George, several times, to sit down and allow him to finish answering the question. After several minutes, the man apologized and sat down, to applause from the crowd.

RCMP arrested 14 people Monday at a pipeline blockade in northwestern B.C., sparking protests across the country. Demonstrators on both sides of the pipeline debate appeared at Trudeau's events in Kamloops on Wednesday.

Trudeau fielded a variety of questions at the town hall, but his fiery exchanges with Indigenous people dominated the event. When he called on a First Nations woman in the crowd, she asked him what he would do to stop oppressing her people.

"When are you going to give us our rights back?" she asked, to cheers and applause.

The prime minister replied that Canada has a "long and terrible history" with regards to First Nations, but his government is working toward reconciliation and met with Indigenous leaders to discuss self-governance on Tuesday.

"It will take time to improve (the relationship), but we are making significant progress," he said.

"You are afraid to lose everything you benefit from our oppression and our suffering. You are afraid to lose your comfort," the woman yelled.

"No, I'm not," Trudeau replied. "I am ready to walk in partnership with you and building the future and that is what we've been doing ... I understand the anger and the passion that you have about protecting your land."

After a lengthy exchange in which the woman continued to press him on how he allowed the arrests to happen, Trudeau said it was possible the woman was "not listening" to him and he tried to move on. Members of the crowd continued to occasionally yell, with one crying out, "Shame on you!"

Later, a man who identified himself as Arnie Jack from the Shuswap Nation said Canada does not have a deed to its territory and has no right to build the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion through its lands.

Jack described the arrests in northern B.C. as a "national disgrace."

"Do you have a deed to Shuswap territory? Have you brought one here tonight to impose your jurisdiction on us?" Jack asked.

"No, I did not," Trudeau said, adding that having a "deed" is an old way of doing things and instead he wants to move forward in partnership with Indigenous Peoples.
(National Observer)​


----------



## FeXL

WHOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHH...

That's the sound of the day's lesson going right over the Gropenfuhrer's head.

What an embarrassment to the planet. XX)



CubaMark said:


> With good reason, Trudeau gets a message at his town hall...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> Questions you’ll never see on the CBC.


From the comments:



> He’s simply a **** salesman with a mouth full of Samples.
> 
> I tune this POS out – cannot stand listening to his voice.
> One only need to look at his “Accomplishments” (there are NO positive ones), to know Precisely what he and his Liberal Caucus is All about.
> 
> Anti Canadian Industry.
> Anti Euro Centric Citizens
> Anti Alberta: deep seated genetic hatred for Albertans themselves.
> 100% Anti Fossil Fuels to justify his THEFT of Tax Dollars via a CO2 Tax.
> Pro Islam – who in their Right Fkn Minds belives ISIS returnees have anything to offer.??
> Pro UN – Pro Wide Open Migration….of Soley Sub Saharan & Middle Eastern Islamic Filth.
> 
> We needed a Pipeline..?
> We got a Bong…so as to not notice our Country being STOLEN by TRAITORS.


Yeppers.

And:



> Trudeau stated that we don’t import Saudi oil, yet according to one of his bought and paid for trusted news sources, the Toronto Star reported on November 26, 2018 that we import 80,000 barrels a day from Saudi Arabia, that is refined in New Brunswick and consumed mostly in Eastern Canada. POS Trudeau is either ignorant of the facts, purposely misleading the audience or outright lying.


One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## eMacMan

As he is a polietician, saying this about Trudeau is completely redundant.


> POS Trudeau is either ignorant of the facts, purposely misleading the audience or outright lying.


----------



## FeXL

It's not often I applaud a shooting. This is an exception to the rule.

It's enough to make you...

...believe in karma...



> *Lingathasan Suntharamoorthy, 36*, was gunned down inside his eighth-floor apartment near Kennedy Rd. and Hwy. 401 becoming the city’s fourth murder of 2019 – *the fourth slain in six days*.
> 
> He made headlines in 2005 when he and three other men were charged after *a mentally disabled man* was *brutally beaten to death* at a Scarborough diner.


:clap::clap::clap:

Guess he didn't get enough hugs over the last 14 years.

The planet is a better place today...


----------



## FeXL

This Is Not Your Grandma’s Humane Society



> Animal rights wackos to target Niagara Icewine Festival
> 
> At War for Animals Niagara (AWFAN), the group that’s long been protesting horse-drawn carriages in NOTL, is trying a new tactic that targets tourist-heavy events, according to spokesperson Adam Stirr.
> 
> […]
> 
> AWFAN isn’t protesting the way the animals are treated, according to Stirr. Instead, he said, its members are opposed to “speciesism,” which he defines as the objectifying animals by using them as property.​
> *They never “target” Sturgis Bike Week.*


Bold mine.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor

i can not help but laugh.. sorry but NDP want to run a country ? lol - hell no!

https://www.thestar.com/politics/fe...coGk5p66hzgBEE80ohLinZRFsblLtrHoDcC-5-GJKZzlw


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> i can not help but laugh.. sorry but NDP want to run a country ? lol - hell no!
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/politics/fe...coGk5p66hzgBEE80ohLinZRFsblLtrHoDcC-5-GJKZzlw


Donations are down under unrepentant socialist Jagmeet Singh? Surprise!


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Donations are down under unrepentant socialist Jagmeet Singh? Surprise!


well when you and your bother protest the police and carry signs saying "f**K the police" can you be totally surprised.. not to mention he is another liberal graduate of spend spend spend and spend more.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> Donations are down under unrepentant socialist Jagmeet Singh? Surprise!


Jagmeet is done anyway.


----------



## FeXL

While I wouldn't shed a tear if he was gone, I'm not entirely convinced. Far too many variables at play here.



smashedbanana said:


> Jagmeet is done anyway.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Huh. Another racist Liberal politician.

Shocka...

Liberal candidate Karen Wang's resignation shows dangers of playing ethno-politics



> Karen Wang’s career as a Liberal Party of Canada candidate came to disastrous end on Wednesday as the party dumped her over stupid, and quite frankly racist comments.
> 
> It was such a change for a woman whose Twitter profile bragged about being the Team Trudeau candidate in the Burnaby South byelection. The party itself had just the evening before tweeted its support of her.
> 
> The official Liberal Party account tweeted “Add Women Change Politics” and called Wang an incredible candidate just hours before this story broke.
> 
> Now she’s out, brought down by a crass attempt to use race and tribal politics to win the byelection.


----------



## SINC

*Botched handling of gangster refugee claimant exposes Canada's screening weaknesses*



> Abdullahi Hashi Farah's candid confession about his gangster past clearly impressed the Immigration and Refugee Board officer who presided over his first detention hearing on Nov. 1, 2017.
> 
> Caught while crossing the border illegally near Emerson, Man., the 27-year-old Somali citizen readily told the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) officers he had an extensive criminal record, had been a Somali Outlaws gang member in Minneapolis and was fleeing an arrest warrant for parole violation.
> 
> Farah insisted, however, that he had only been a gang member for two years, and had quit the criminal life eight years earlier.
> 
> At the detention hearing, the CBSA strongly recommended Farah be detained a few more days until it received his full criminal record from the U.S. But Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB) member Trent Cook clearly placed more weight on Farah's admission about his background than on the agency's suspicion about the degree of his criminality.
> 
> "One of the biggest factors that play in your particular situation is your character," Cook said.
> 
> "In my estimation, you are probably one of the most honest detainees that I have ever come across," he said, noting Farah had acted "contrary" to his own interests by offering up his criminal history and gang ties.
> 
> "What this indicates to me is that you are, based on your character and behaviour, very likely to pursue all of your immigration matters in Canada with the same diligence and honesty as you have demonstrated in your interview."
> 
> Had Cook heeded the CBSA recommendation and waited to obtain his entire U.S. criminal record, he would have learned that Farah used eight aliases, two different birth dates and had convictions in four states, including a felony gun conviction.
> 
> But Cook didn't heed the CBSA, and after a Federal Court judge denied the agency's challenge of Cook's decision the next day, Farah was released in Winnipeg.


More at the link.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/gangster-refugee-canada-immigration-screening-1.4943292


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> *Botched handling of gangster refugee claimant exposes Canada's screening weaknesses*


Diversity is our strength!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, if Ontario didn't know the feeling before, they'll get familiar with it come this fall...

For Trudeau, it's all about electoral politics



> It’s an interesting contrast, how Justin Trudeau deals with Quebec’s premier compared to Ontario’s and it tells you a lot about the coming election.
> 
> When it comes to the Trudeau government’s relationship with Ontario Premier Doug Ford it is attack, attack, attack. Trudeau even had one of his ministers label one of Ford’s ministers “unCanadian”.


BOHICA...

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Things You’ll Never See On The CBC



> *Pierre Trudeau knew his son Justin was not reliable and frivolous— so he instructed his lawyers to not give him his multimillion dollar estate until he turned 45 years old.*
> 
> Canadians who didn’t know Justin gave him $300B budget at age 43.
> 
> Pierre Trudeau was right. pic.twitter.com/sJUuMHFq3Q
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) January 19, 2019​


Bold mine.

"Just not ready"?

Quelle surprise...


----------



## FeXL

Canada could impact emissions were Ottawa not so obsessed with carbon taxes



> Three years ago, there we were at the COP21 Paris Climate Conference: 383 Canadians strong. Our delegation was larger than almost any other country’s, rivalling even the host country’s delegation. Canada was back.
> 
> Saskatchewan was there, too, with our three-person contribution to the overall Canadian throng, though we may have been a little out of step.
> 
> Just two weeks before Paris, the Alberta government had announced its own carbon tax. The explicit and implied promise was that this indulgence paid by Albertans would purchase the absolution required to secure pipeline approvals. Saskatchewan then was alone in its opposition to a nationally imposed carbon tax. So, in Paris we were — without intention — a few prairie skunks at this low-carbon garden party.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> Things You’ll Never See On The CBC
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> "Just not ready"?
> 
> Quelle surprise...


His inheritance is paid in dividends and concludes when he is 45.

It doesn't start when he is 45.


----------



## FeXL

Link?



smashedbanana said:


> His inheritance is paid in dividends and concludes when he is 45.
> 
> It doesn't start when he is 45.


----------



## Macfury

A bit of both. He received $20,000 a year for 25 years, then the balance at age 45:



> The boys were given shares in 90562 Canada Inc., the federal corporation that held Trudeau’s portfolio of securities, managed by Montreal investment firm Jarislowsky Fraser.
> 
> The succession plans were set up to transfer the company’s assets to the Trudeau sons over time, to guard against the possibility the money would vanish in a spending binge in their wild 20s. This scheduled transfer concludes only when Justin reaches age 45 in 2016.
> 
> As they came of age, the heirs received regular dividends from the company – Justin’s topped out at about $20,000 annually – to supplement their incomes.


https://globalnews.ca/news/392961/justin-trudeau-reveals-details-of-his-1-2-million-inheritance/


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> A bit of both. He received $20,000 a year for 25 years, then the balance at age 45:


Thx.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> Link?


Curious as to why when your read someone's opinion piece on small dead animals you take as fact and repost verbatim. 

I say something and you need a source?


----------



## FeXL

Fair question.

Years ago I had briefly read something on the topic & what I recalled resonated with what I had quoted.



smashedbanana said:


> Curious as to why when your read someone's opinion piece on small dead animals you take as fact and repost verbatim.
> 
> I say something and you need a source?


----------



## FUXL

Hey y'all. How's the hurtin' albertin yeller belly club goin?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Hey y'all. How's the hurtin' albertin yeller belly club goin?




A voice of reason crying out from the wilderness!


----------



## FeXL

Hey, if it isn't my short-peckered, porcine, Priapus-driving, Prog pal, Piggy!

It goes better than down east, my friend. Why? 'Cause in a few short months we're gonna be ripping that monkey off ours backs & disposing of it in the trash heap of history, never to be heard from again!

Woohoo!

At the same time, yer gonna be living with Mr. Ford for a few more years.

Win-win!

And, without actually looking at it, yer attachment is undoubtedly another bull$h!t, biased poll bought & paid for by that wunnerful, statist rag, MotherCorpse.

Amiright?



FUXL said:


> Hey y'all. How's the hurtin' albertin yeller belly club goin?


----------



## FeXL

And why am I not surprised, Freddie, that you would find any sorry prick on these boards who would call another member, "Nazi", a voice of reason?

F'ing Progs...



Freddie_Biff said:


> A voice of reason crying out from the wilderness!


----------



## Beej

A Quebec politician who talks about federal rights to approve pipelines through Quebec in French media. That's interesting.

Bernier taking a jab at Scheer, so context is likely missing.
https://twitter.com/MaximeBernier/status/1087796821001469952


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Not a surprise to anybody paying attention.

Trudeau and the Special Treatment of Quebec



> A tale of two provinces……..
> 
> Legault told the PM that he wants Quebec to reduce the number of immigrants it takes in from 50,000 to 40,000, wants to keep the current level of immigration funding he gets from the feds and wants $300 million in compensation for those illegal border crossers.
> 
> Oh and Legault also said that before immigration levels rise in Quebec he wants a language test and a values test in place.
> If Ontario made that same list of demands it would be mere seconds until Gerry Butts, the PM’s top adviser, begins calling Doug Ford a Nazi on Twitter.
> 
> Legault got a meeting.​


First comment sums it up rather nicely:



> It was a typical taxpayer funded town hall circus. Groper answered many questions by blaming Hitler Harper. He ranted to the young socialists that oil would be replaced in a few years with green energy. Praised Quebec for its carbon tax and warned those evil conservative provinces that they will be dealt with. Of course he had some women with bags over their heads placed near him for the cameras. And morale must be in the tank at the RCMP after he stated that he disagreed with the mounties taking down the blockade at the gas pipe line site in B.C.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Let's talk fallout from illegal aliens s'more!

Trudeau’s Border Crisis and Homelessness



> We keep hearing about a crisis in homelessness but has anyone looked at where the spike in people using shelters in some of out biggest cities is coming from?
> 
> I did and all roads lead to Trudeau.


Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!

Quick, CM! Send this in to CNN or Buzzfeed & don't forget to post it on yer FB page!

“Cue the death threats and doxxing”



> A Facebook video surfaced this week of three members of the Fort McMurray Junior Oil Barons dancing around their dressing room to popular indigenous music. *One player was pounding on the lid of a garbage can like a drum.*


CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!! BIGOTS!!! H8TERS!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

CBSA arrest of alleged human smuggler proves Grits have no clue what to do about illegal border crossers



> Which makes me wonder, why is someone now facing charges for helping people do something that is not illegal?
> 
> On Wednesday, the Canada Border Services Agency announced that a woman had been charged with smuggling people into the country via Roxham Rd.
> 
> It’s hardly smuggling when you are doing it in the open and the RCMP are there to greet you. Yet, Olayinka Celestina Opaleye is facing charges “for organizing illegal entry into Canada.”


It's not illegal when the gov't does it.

BTW, that headline could easily be shortened to, "Grits have no clue, period".


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Gotta love drunken Prog ambassadors making foreign policy...

The first thing we do... 



> ...is break out the breathalyzer...


Related:

King Joffrey Trudeau finally swings the axe... 



> ...Tyrion McCallum belatedly realises he *should've stayed in Mackenzie Kings Landing* with his ale and his whores...


Links' bold.

Too embarrassing, even for Juthdin?


----------



## FeXL

And, speaking of Juthdin and the ChiComs.

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> Buyer’s remorse.
> 
> This is what China’s lead editorial newspaper said of Trudeau GVT
> 
> God help Canada 🇨🇦 pic.twitter.com/FhV1OE25BQ
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) January 28, 2019​


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

Yup, this.

Arrests in Terror Plot Raise Questions About Canada’s Refugee Embrace



> KINGSTON, Ontario — A youth was charged on Friday with “facilitating a terrorist activity” in eastern Ontario and trying to persuade a friend, who is a Syrian refugee, to plant a bomb in a public place. The refugee was released from custody although the possibility of charges against him remain.
> 
> The youth who was charged was not identified, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would not describe him. But the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the Canadian Press news agency identified his friend as Hussam Eddin Alzahabi, 20, one of about 52,000 Syrian refugees who have come to Canada.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who made the Syrians’ resettlement a leading priority of his government, faced questions on Friday about Canada’s openness toward refugees.
> 
> With the Syrians’ arrival, Canadians swiftly embraced a program that allows individuals or groups to bring refugees to their country provided that the Canadians are willing to meet all of their needs for at least one year. While the program is a source of pride for many Canadians, Mr. Trudeau’s opponents on the right have long raised concerns that it could leave the country vulnerable.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/world/canada/terror-plot-arrests-refugees.html


----------



## FeXL

A bit of sanity in Tranna?!

Union to fight Metrolinx pot ban for some workers



> Regional transit agency Metrolinx plans to ban workers in so-called safety sensitive positions from using recreational cannabis on or off duty.
> 
> The provincial agency that operates in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area says workers in approximately 140 roles– including vehicle operators — will be banned from using pot under the policy that take effect Feb. 1.
> 
> It says it is making the change to fitness-for-duty rules to ensure the health and safety of its employees, the public, and the communities it serves.


I'm pleasantly surprised to find some (any?) sanity regarding the potential fallout from dope smokers.

Wait'll The Dope hears about this...


----------



## macintosh doctor

Jihadi Justin has some how convinced google that convicted terrorist Omar is a solider .. it took google 8 hours to fix it.. 
seriously disturbing.


----------



## smashedbanana

macintosh doctor said:


> Jihadi Justin has some how convinced google that convicted terrorist Omar is a solider .. it took google 8 hours to fix it..
> seriously disturbing.


Slow news day?

Google search yields strange result? So rare.

And Justin Trudeau has to do with this how?


----------



## FeXL

The answer is, yes.

In addition, the headline could just as easily be shortened to, "Has Sockboy destroyed Canada?".

Rex Murphy: Has Trudeau Destroyed Canada’s Resource Future?

Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

What could possibly go wrong?

He Admires Their Basic Censorship



> Seems legit.
> 
> …on Wednesday morning several Liberal cabinet ministers convened a press conference to announce what they’re doing to do combat “fake news,” disinformation and foreign interference in the upcoming federal election.
> 
> *The plan includes $7 million to fund workshops that aim to teach Canadians how to sort through potential disinformation as well as “critically assess online news reporting and editorials.”* […]
> 
> That’s not the end of it, though. The feds also unveiled something called the “critical election incident public protocol.” If the government becomes aware of an “interference attempt” during the election, a panel of senior bureaucrats will be convened to figure out whether it’s serious or not — “a substantial threat to a free and fair election” — and, if so, a press conference is held to inform the public.​
> Related from the CTF;
> 
> The Notley government is trying to muzzle freedom of expression by forcing organizations, like ours, to register and disclose donor information if we want to complain about their carbon tax. But we’re not going to let that fly, we are challenging the government’s violation of the Charter right to freedom of expression in the courts.​


Bold mine.

$7 million to teach Canucks to turn off MotherCorpse? :yikes::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Further on the above.

From the linked comments:



> I understand some of the workshops are already at work.
> 
> First they want to get to the bottom of who used fake news about budget deficits and recessions during the 2015 election.
> 
> Apparently there was also another problem with an adolescent puke hijacking the PM debates with talk over points and childish behaviour in general, with the “moderator’s,” tacit support, impairing voter’s ability to make an informed choice.
> 
> The workshops are buzzing as we speak.
> 
> It seems also there is a lot of concern about fake news outlets camped out at an insignificant trial, for which the defendant was later acquitted, with another party stealing 6X as much, instead actually covering the election, so depriving voters of a clear choice?
> 
> And then if that isn’t bad enough, the miscreant fake news jerks weren’t outed until after election, after their damage had been done. Is there any doubt the Russians and their agent in Washington were behind the whole thing?
> 
> No that doesn’t make any sense. Umm, Harper is a Russian bot and plays hockey on a line with Putin. There you go.


Yeppers...


----------



## FUXL

Another week another federal aggregate poll ya hurting albertan yeller bellied oil rag.


----------



## Macfury

It was 55.8% in your earlier post Jimbo. So you're saying support for the federal Liberals is dropping consistently?


----------



## eMacMan

FUXL said:


> Another week another federal aggregate poll ya hurting albertan yeller bellied oil rag.


Talk about a huge range. If they have that little confidence in their guesses they should forget making predictions altogether.


----------



## macintosh doctor

eMacMan said:


> Talk about a huge range. If they have that little confidence in their guesses they should forget making predictions altogether.


i would not expect anything less for CBC, they do have to keep their liberal sponsors happy. $600 million does have a way to lean the polls


----------



## SINC

Just one more mistake by Turdeau:

*Freeland knew her grandfather was editor of Nazi newspaper*

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...pHsSKftAdnfjPFTaUyphO5w8nR_D8nf5BnOaVC53J14so


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Solving... rather expensively at that...



> ...a problem that doesn't exist...
> 
> _Over two years, $10 million will be dispersed to Indigenous organizations to develop various activities and events across the country in memory of the hundreds who have been killed or gone missing over the past 30 years. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls pointed out that activities should be funded that honour the lives and legacies of Indigenous women, girls and LGBT people.
> 
> Those initiatives could include things like pow-wows, healing circles, lecture series, art workshops, community monuments and totem poles, the government said._​


----------



## FeXL

Waiting for the “Racism” Excuse to be used – 3 . . 2 . . 1



> [A] most interesting story is emerging out of Ryerson University. Allegedly the heads of the Students’ Union, elected in May 2018, have been on quite the spending spree with the university’s credit cards:
> 
> The heads of the Ryerson Students’ Union have been given one week to explain approximately $250,000 in credit card spending, which critics say includes numerous questionable expenditures over an eight-month period.
> 
> The credit card statement, which is addressed to student union president Ram Ganesh, includes purchases at LCBO locations, a shisha lounge and a credit risk company in Stratford, Ont.
> 
> The expenditures allegedly date back to May 2018, when Ganesh began his term as president.
> 
> Ganesh and vice president Savreen Gosal took over the student union’s credit card and began using it themselves, according to reporting by The Eyeopener.​
> Three immediate questions come to mind:
> 1. When will the police be called in to file criminal charges?
> 2. How long will it take before Ram Ganesh and Savreen Gosal cry that this is all a racist plot and they’re the victims of white privilege?
> *3. Given this callous disregard for spending other people’s money, how long before they become federal Liberal Party candidates?*


Bold mine.

Any bets The Dope has already sent them an offer?


----------



## FeXL

If it weren't for double standards, the Progs wouldn't have any standards at all...

This tweet got over 6500 likes.

I wonder what the look on their faces would have been if I'd have dropped by, offered to try one on & worn it like a breechclout...

:lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Mad Cowz?

Mad Cowz back in the Peg?

So, just another story of gang-bangers shooting each other, which I could honestly care less about as long as they take no innocents with them.

However, deep into the post we find a (caution!) link to a MotherCorpse story about this particular gang being around since at least '04.

Question: If the stringent immigration standards of '04 couldn't weed out this trash, what makes Trudles think that the current lengthy, invasive, all-together-too-long 96 hour immigration background check is going to?

Jes' askin'...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Art Of The Fail



> Trudeau Silent as Trump Bans Canada from US infrastructure projects


And, as NEO likes to note, as usual, the real gold is in the comments:



> You know NAFTA is gone when that legacy has been shredded. Canadians can now take lean comfort in now being able to keep Americans out of demanding their legal NAFTA right to bid on Canadian infrastructure but since nothing can get approved it’s moot. The Spawn is the ironically appropriate “leader” of a nation that refuses to be capable of defending itself, will not diversify away from US markets, and has deemed itself an international virtue signaler and is politically hellbent on green poverty. His beloved China accurately values his true character worth and so he must cower under Trump’s skirt and suck it on demand.


And:



> Sponge Knob pm asked for it when he stabbed Trump in the back …..karma is a B…


Sponge Knob. I like it!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Does Trudeau think taxes pay themselves?



> It shouldn’t be a shock, coming from a guy that thinks budgets balance themselves.
> 
> On Tuesday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said low income Canadians don’t pay taxes.
> 
> “The Conservatives simply don’t understand that low-income families don’t benefit from tax breaks because they don’t pay taxes,” Trudeau _thundered_.


Thundered? Trudles _thundered_? :lmao::lmao::lmao:

More:



> It should have been an easy question for Trudeau to swat away, instead he proved a central Conservative talking point: that trust-fund Trudeau is so out of touch with the ordinary lives of Canadians that he doesn’t know that low-income Canadians pay all kinds of taxes.


Or that he's merely stupid. I suspect it's the latter...

Further:



> He’s never had to worry about a bill in his life and he thinks low income people don’t pay taxes.
> 
> Just like budgets balance themselves.
> 
> *This guy has to go.*


Bold mine.

One Term Juthdin!!!


----------



## Macfury

He comes by his ignorance honestly--his intelligence level is at fault.


----------



## FeXL

Yet one more wart on the ass of Canuckinstan's wunnerful Prog politicians.

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> Globe and Mail (behind paywall);
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s office attempted to press Jody Wilson-Raybould when she was justice minister to intervene in the corruption and fraud prosecution of Montreal engineering and construction giant SNC-Lavalin Group Inc., sources say, but she refused to ask federal prosecutors to make a deal with the company that could prevent a costly trial.
> 
> SNC-Lavalin has sought to avoid a criminal trial on fraud and corruption charges stemming from an RCMP investigation into its business dealings in Libya. Prosecutors alleged in February, 2015, that SNC paid millions of dollars in bribes to public officials in Libya between 2001 and 2011 to secure government contracts. The engineering company says executives who were responsible for the wrongdoing have left the company, and it has reformed ethics and compliance rules.
> 
> After the charges, SNC-Lavalin lobbied officials in Ottawa, including senior members in the office of Mr. Trudeau, to secure a deal known as a “deferred prosecution agreement” or “remediation agreement” that would set aside the prosecution. In such deals, which are used in the United States and Britain, a company would accept responsibility for the wrongdoing and pay a financial penalty, relinquish benefits gained from the wrongdoing and put in place compliance measures. “It is unfair that the actions of one or more rogue employees should tarnish a company’s reputation, as well as jeopardize its future success and its employees’ livelihoods,” SNC argued in a brief to federal officials in October, 2017.
> 
> But in October, 2018, SNC-Lavalin hit a major obstacle. The federal director of public prosecutions refused to negotiate a remediation agreement that would have resolved the Libyan fraud and corruption charges without prosecution. SNC-Lavalin has asked for a judicial review of the decision, citing “the extremely negative consequences the underlying legal proceedings have had and will continue to have [even in the event of an acquittal] on [SNC] and innocent stakeholders, including employees, suppliers, pensioners and stakeholders, in the absence of an invitation to negotiate.”​
> So Jody Wilson-Raybould got shuffled out to Veterans Affairs. Huh.
> 
> 2/ The Lib gov amended the Criminal Code last year to help SNC-Lavalin out of its legal troubles following fraud and corruption charges.
> 
> And Minister Wilson-Raybould was shuffled from her post because she would not cave in to pressure from the PMO to help the company.
> 
> — Maxime Bernier (@MaximeBernier) February 7, 2019​
> Stay tuned…


Once again, the comments.

Can't get rid of these bastards quick enough.


----------



## SINC

Turdeau is crooked as a man can be and needs to be eliminated from Canadian politics. He is rotten to the very core.

*PMO pressed Wilson-Raybould to abandon prosecution of SNC-Lavalin*

https://outline.com/Rh4rNP

*Canada now dominates World Bank corruption list, thanks to SNC-Lavalin*

https://business.financialpost.com/...ld-bank-corruption-list-thanks-to-snc-lavalin


----------



## SINC

Is Turdeau a liar, plain and simple? Watch it unfold.

*Scheer calls for ‘full disclosure’ as Trudeau denies PMO ‘directed’ Wilson-Raybould on SNC-Lavalin case*

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...ll-disclosure-as-trudeau-denies-pmo-directed/


----------



## SINC

And now more about the dirty rotten scoundrel Turdeau really is::

*For a commission of inquiry into SNC-Lavalin and the Prime Minister’s Office
Paul Wells: What’s alleged in today’s Globe story is not just plausible, it points to bigger PMO problems. And it’s the sort of thing that can destroy governments.*

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ot...o-snc-lavalin-and-the-prime-ministers-office/


----------



## SINC

And still more of the corruption:

*Listen Closely: Justin Trudeau’s ‘Denial’ Of Bombshell Corruption Report Has A Big Loophole*

https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...mbshell-corruption-report-has-a-big-loophole/


----------



## SINC

The stink of this just continues to grow.

*Tale of prosecutorial interference a mortal threat to the Trudeau brand
It would be perfectly emblematic of a government that promised a new way of doing things, but is capable of cynicism that could make Jean Chrétien blush*

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ch...-brand?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## FeXL

I dislike being this cynical but Trudles could have sex with an underage goat in full view on Parliament Hill & two weeks later not only would the $600 million presstitutes be focussing on the next Conservative $16 glass of OJ, but the _progressive thinkers_ in this wunnerful country of ours would _still_ vote for him, citing _diversity_ & looking to change the law on bestiality...

XX)


----------



## SINC

One can only hope this dogs him until charges are laid and we are rid of him forever.

*PM's shaky denial of interfering in corruption case*

https://torontosun.com/news/nationa...n-case?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## SINC

Tick, tick . . .

As Trudeau scandal escalates, Jody Wilson-Raybould’s father speaks out

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/a...ates-jody-wilson-rayboulds-father-speaks-out/


----------



## SINC

Conservatives are calling for the House of Commons Justice Committee to investigate reports that Justin Trudeau’s office interfered in a criminal prosecution. 

I bet the paper shredders and hard drive deleters are getting a ton of overtime this weekend.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> One can only hope this dogs him until charges are laid and we are rid of him forever.
> 
> *PM's shaky denial of interfering in corruption case*
> 
> https://torontosun.com/news/nationa...n-case?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


You can only hope. But the Cons and the NDP both have shadow leaders who really don’t register with most Canadian voters. But, if he ( Trudeau ) does get nailed on this then the party could dump him as leader....but in an election year doubtful....but if he comes in with a substantial seat loss then maybe.....and that’s our only hope I am afraid....


----------



## SINC

Tick, tick . . .

Remember when SNC-Lavalin funnelled $100k to the Liberals?

https://www.andrewlawton.ca/remembe...58DwUQmlPB5L-uaj6j93z_o-mGmccys-68h9tiTDTRgnE


----------



## SINC

Tick, tick . . .

Rex smells a rat. 

Justin Trudeau's strange strain of response leaves us perplexed

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/re...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1549649295


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> You can only hope. But the Cons and the NDP both have shadow leaders who really don’t register with most Canadian voters. But, if he ( Trudeau ) does get nailed on this then the party could dump him as leader....but in an election year doubtful....but if he comes in with a substantial seat loss then maybe.....and that’s our only hope I am afraid....


JT now immediately is a lame duck PM. If the committee finds fault he is finished, election or not. That would leave Scheer as the only possible acceptable alternative to Canadians given the Dippers choice as leader.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Justin Trudeau's strange strain of response leaves us perplexed


Of course the bastard was lying: His lips were moving!


----------



## SINC

Tick, tick . . .

*Trudeau's 'rule of law' lectures to China seem laughable after SNC-Lavalin*

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/np...avalin?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## FeXL

Further:

Ex-attorney general's lips are sealed on corruption case



> The one woman who could clear up all the controversy won’t be speaking.
> 
> Former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould says she will not comment on claims that she was pressured to make a deal to avoid criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin in a corruption case because she is not allowed to.
> 
> “As the former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, I am bound by solicitor-client privilege in this matter,” Wilson-Raybould said in a statement Friday.


However,



> *It is unclear how Wilson-Raybould can claim privilege in this case given that in matters of criminal prosecution the attorney general represents the Crown and not the Government of Canada or the PMO.* Lawyers I spoke to, including past attorneys general, had differing opinions on the matter.


Bold mine.

Questions, questions, questions...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Told ya.

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> “WE’VE WEIGHED THE EVIDENCE AND FIND OURSELVES INNOCENT.”


From the comments:



> If Justin said there was no interference then it must be true. So that’s that, the Canadian media will now put this story to bed.


Apparently some already have (also from the comments):



> Strange how Trudeau’s CBC hasn’t mentioned the scandal at all this morning.


Curious how the $1.3 billion press whores can't find their tongues. Oh, wait: they're firmly (& permanently) emplaced up the Liberal party's backside...

From the enclosed link:



> Current Justice Minister and Attorney General David Lametti said there has been no evidence to justify a committee investigation into whether or not Prime Minister Justin Trudeau or anyone in his office tried to have former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould abandon the prosecution of a case against SNC-Lavalin.
> 
> "All we've heard are allegations in a newspaper," Lametti, who replaced Wilson-Raybould when she was shuffled into the Veterans' Affairs portfolio last month, told CTV's Question Period host Evan Solomon.
> 
> *"The prime minister has said that these allegations are false. We haven't had any corroborating evidence there. There hasn't been anything to my mind that justifies a committee investigation."*


Bold mine.

Of _course_ not...

Yet one more reason to secede. XX)


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Librano!



> Pay to play.
> 
> Since he became Liberal leader in April 2013, gifts to the Foundation have increased significantly. Donations went from $172,211 in 2015 to $731,753 in 2016, while foreign donations from 0 in 2007 to $535,000 in 2016.
> 
> Some of Canada’s largest corporations including Air Canada, BMO, Suncor and Resolute Forest Products — have sponsored Trudeau Foundation conferences. While others like Bombardier even have members of their board of directors on the board of the Trudeau Foundation.​
> Related!


From the enclosed hotlink:



> The Liberal government appears likely to block opposition efforts to probe allegations of political interference in the criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin, while insisting that discussions on the matter with former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould were above board.
> 
> Justin Trudeau’s government will not yet waive solicitor-client privilege, which would give Wilson-Raybould latitude to speak about the allegation, nor will it permit a parliamentary committee to proceed with its own investigation, the Star has learned.


The Red Star is reporting on this? :yikes:

Shocka...

I wonder if the presstitutes over at MotherCorpse have stopped laving Prog nether regions long enough to report on this?

From SDA comments:



> Pay to play…Justin following the Hillary Playbook to a tee. Not that previous Liberals hadnt mind you. Kate, I think your heading yesterday on the SNC thing was 100% bang on. Were this an actual “Truthful-Honest” PM, I might have given some slack.
> 
> *Justin is as far from Truthful-Honest as dog **** is a hearty breakfast.*
> We truly live in a Fascist Country.


Bold mine...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

More:

Here's what Canadians need to know about the scandal that could get Trudeau removed from office


----------



## FeXL

Red Rachel's boss flip-flopping like a fish on the river bank on a political issue?

Shocka...

NDP leader Jagmeet Singh sows confusion on 'sensitive' Venezuela issue, contradicting party line



> Federal NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh caused further confusion about his party’s position on Venezuela when he refused to say who he recognizes as the country’s president — putting him out of line with his own foreign affairs critic.


----------



## FeXL

As a rule I have damn little good to say about Kaybeck politicians as a whole but this lady needs a standing ovation on this issue.

Quebec status of women minister calls Muslim head scarf symbol of oppression



> Quebec's new minister responsible for the status of women faced criticism Wednesday after saying she considers the hijab to be a symbol of oppression.
> 
> Speaking to reporters after being named to the portfolio Tuesday, Isabelle Charest said the Muslim head scarf does not correspond to her values and she believes it is "not something women should be wearing."


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What's this?! Another Prog narrative hits the crapper?

"Legalizing marijuana is going to eliminate criminal drug sales!"

147 kg of cannabis seized in bust near Banff, 39-year-old Sask. man arrested



> A massive drug bust in January involving a 39-year-old Saskatchewan man is evidence that the black market for marijuana is still thriving, RCMP say.


<cough>bull$h!t<cough>


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> What's this?! Another Prog narrative hits the crapper?
> 
> "Legalizing marijuana is going to eliminate criminal drug sales!"
> 
> 147 kg of cannabis seized in bust near Banff, 39-year-old Sask. man arrested
> 
> <cough>bull$h!t<cough>


In the long run it might. The whole (lack) of retail strategy and supply shortages haven't exactly been a real competition for the black market.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> Further:
> 
> Ex-attorney general's lips are sealed on corruption case
> 
> 
> 
> However,
> 
> 
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> Questions, questions, questions...


Apparently Justin Trudeau can waive that privilege if he so chooses...


----------



## FeXL

smashedbanana said:


> In the long run it might. The whole (lack) of retail strategy and supply shortages haven't exactly been a real competition for the black market.


Huh. Yet one more gov't tailored business plan that fails miserably fresh out of the gate.

Who knew?

Everybody but the bastard gov't...

Once again: *The gov't has no business being in business.*


----------



## FeXL

smashedbanana said:


> Apparently Justin Trudeau can waive that privilege if he so chooses...


Have I got a bridge for you.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> In the long run it might. The whole (lack) of retail strategy and supply shortages haven't exactly been a real competition for the black market.


Price alone is the biggest problem.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Hey, when yer The Dope's hand-picked contractors, who cares about QC? You'll get paid either way & a second time when you come back to fix the defects!

See 100,000 Pages Of Defects



> *Records on costly construction and design defects in newly-opened Parliament buildings run to more than 100,000 pages, says the Department of Public Works.* MPs and senators complain of numerous errors, from doors that don’t open to sound systems that don’t amplify. *Renovations cost more than $1.1 billion to date.*
> 
> “*It seems we are in a situation where responsibility and accountability seem to be rather weak*,” Senator Eric Forest (Independent-Que.) earlier told the Senate committee on internal economy: *“We were told there would be no problem, and now we find ourselves with a serious problem now that the work has been finished.”*
> 
> “We do not see these people,” said Forest. *“We have informed them they have been paid handsomely, in my opinion.”*
> 
> Blacklock’s on January 29 filed an Access To Information request for one year’s worth of records, files and correspondence “regarding deficiencies in construction, engineering, design and architecture at Parliament’s West Block and the new Senate chamber.” Public Works Canada said the records total “over 100,000 pages”: “This estimate does not yet take into account the extraction and uploading of further information pertaining to this request from our various Branch systems and email accounts,” wrote staff.


All bold mine.

Good to see my tax $$$ at work.

XX)


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> Price alone is the biggest problem.


People are lazy. Make it easy enough purchase legitimately and it will kill the black market.

Think of that time when everyone was illegally downloading music. Cds were $19.99. Along comes Apple at 99 cents per song, world changed. Sure some people still download illegally but its a fraction of a fraction..


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> Have I got a bridge for you.


I am not buying bridges today. I just pointed out that privilege can be waived. I make no assertion about whether or not he will waive it..


----------



## Freddie_Biff

smashedbanana said:


> People are lazy. Make it easy enough purchase legitimately and it will kill the black market.
> 
> 
> 
> Think of that time when everyone was illegally downloading music. Cds were $19.99. Along comes Apple at 99 cents per song, world changed. Sure some people still download illegally but its a fraction of a fraction..




I think you may be seriously underestimating the number of people who download illegally, both music and video.


----------



## SINC

*Time to call in cops to probe SNC-Lavalin affair*



> Enough with the games, it is time to call in the police to investigate the allegations of interference and obstruction of justice facing the Prime Minister’s Office.
> 
> If you’ve been living under a rock, The Globe and Mail revealed last week that officials in Justin Trudeau’s office allegedly pressured then-attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould to go light on construction and engineering giant SNC-Lavalin.
> 
> The company is facing prosecution in Canada on corruption charges related to allegations of bribery and fraud in Libya, a violation of Canadian law. The allegation against Trudeau’s PMO is that they pressured her to force the director of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada to sign a remediation agreement and help the firm avoid jail time.
> 
> Essentially the PMO is accused of trying to get a good friend off on a corruption charge by interfering with the prosecution.
> 
> That kind of obstruction can get you 10 years in jail.


More at the link.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/lilley-time-to-call-in-the-cops-to-probe-snc-lavalin-affiar


----------



## Macfury

I agree. The 99 cent download converted only a small number of people who already download illegally. Why pay even 99 cents for something you can get free in a few seconds?



Freddie_Biff said:


> I think you may be seriously underestimating the number of people who download illegally, both music and video.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> People are lazy. Make it easy enough purchase legitimately and it will kill the black market.
> 
> Think of that time when everyone was illegally downloading music. Cds were $19.99. Along comes Apple at 99 cents per song, world changed. Sure some people still download illegally but its a fraction of a fraction..


I don't use cannabis, but the people around me who do seem to get home delivery from their suppliers. If laziness is the key to the market then going down to an expensive pot boutique in person is unlikely. Why pay more for a product that you either need to pick up in person or have sent to you by a costly delivery service--plus tax?

As Freddie says, you're mistaken about those illegal streaming numbers:



> Worldwide, users made a total of 300 billion visits to internet piracy sites last year, up 1.6% from 2016, according to antipiracy consulting firm Muso. But while illegal streaming and downloads of TV shows and music increased in 2017, film piracy actually declined, Muso’s analysis showed.


https://variety.com/2018/digital/news/piracy-global-2017-tv-music-film-illegal-streaming-1202731243/


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Time to call in cops to probe SNC-Lavalin affair


Don't get me wrong, I want it to happen, too, but I'd be _very_ surprised if the Queen's Horsemen get involved.

The bastard owns them like he owns everything else out there.

Related:

(I'm old enough to remember when this happened...)

This Aged Well



> RT to call on the Prime Minister to testify on the PMO Ethics Scandal under oath. #cdnpoli
> 
> — Justin Trudeau (@JustinTrudeau) October 28, 2013​


----------



## SINC

Is anyone surprised by this?

*More than six in 10 Canadians say Facebook will have a negative impact on fall election: survey*

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...ans-say-facebook-will-have-a-negative-impact/


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> I don't use cannabis, but the people around me who do seem to get home delivery from their suppliers. If laziness is the key to the market then going down to an expensive pot boutique in person is unlikely. Why pay more for a product that you either need to pick up in person or have sent to you by a costly delivery service--plus tax?


You do know that Canabis sales in Ontario are online though right? $5 flat shipping. Supply aside that's going to kill your door to door weed dealer.



> As Freddie says, you're mistaken about those illegal streaming numbers:
> 
> https://variety.com/2018/digital/news/piracy-global-2017-tv-music-film-illegal-streaming-1202731243/


Quite possibly. But my point was more to do with the fact that Apple made it more convenient to buy music than to steal it. They effectively rescued the market. There will always be people who want something for nothing. Not arguing that. But if you make it easier to do something legally then the bulk of the people who can actually spend $$, will spend.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> You do know that Canabis sales in Ontario are online though right? $5 flat shipping. Supply aside that's going to kill your door to door weed dealer.


I know about shipping and included that in my analysis. $5 flat for overnight shipping and a more expensive product vs. free same-day shipping and a lower-priced product?



smashedbanana said:


> Quite possibly. But my point was more to do with the fact that Apple made it more convenient to buy music than to steal it. They effectively rescued the market. There will always be people who want something for nothing. Not arguing that. But if you make it easier to do something legally then the bulk of the people who can actually spend $$, will spend.


Saying they rescued the markets might be a little much. Many of the record labels were losing money until recently when digital sales took them out of a loss position. There will be a price at which theft is beside the point, but I'm not sure even 99 cents is low enough to be that point. I'm sure that illegal movie downloads are down simply because of services like Netflix and Hulu that provide so much unlimited content that there aren't enough hours in the day to watch anything else.


----------



## SINC

*Ethics commissioner launches investigation into political interference allegations in SNC-Lavalin case*



> OTTAWA — Canada’s ethics watchdog has launched an investigation into allegations that the Prime Minister’s Office pressured former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould to help construction giant SNC-Lavalin avoid criminal prosecution.
> 
> The ethics commissioner’s office confirmed to the Post on Monday morning that commissioner Mario Dion has received a request for an investigation from NDP MPs Charlie Angus and Nathan Cullen, which pointed to possible violations of the Conflict of Interest Act.
> 
> Under the rules of the act, Dion has the power to summon witnesses and require them to provide evidence under oath. The investigation will take place in confidence, but a report must be published at its conclusion.
> 
> Angus and Cullen wrote to the ethics commissioner on Friday to request an investigation in the wake of a Globe and Mail report on Thursday containing allegations from unnamed sources that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s office pushed Wilson-Raybould to negotiate a deal with SNC-Lavalin that would have led to a fine instead of a criminal trial.


More at the link.

https://vancouversun.com/news/polit...1f6f04?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## eMacMan

To be clear Apple songs used to be 99¢. Most are now $1.29 and after GST I believe it is $1.36.

I stopped buying when they raised the price.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Duplicate post.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Ethics commissioner launches investigation into political interference allegations in SNC-Lavalin case


Guilty! Here's another $100 fine...

I wouldn't be looking for much to come out of this so-called "investigation".

However, here's a little gasoline on the Prog fire from the left coast:

Oh, Shiny Librano!



> Mark Norman Case Edition.
> 
> Boomshell!!
> 
> Judge in Admiral Norman case says in open court that PMO/PCO is influencing the independence of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada
> 
> Obstruction of Justice everywhere you look in Trudeau GVT. https://t.co/qw80HTjcNu
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) February 11, 2019​
> Lots more here.
> 
> Comments salient.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> I know about shipping and included that in my analysis. $5 flat for overnight shipping and a more expensive product vs. free same-day shipping and a lower-priced product?


It will win out for sure. If it wasn't the winning formula then Amazon would not be king. Maybe older, non-technical people will still buy from a dealer. But why have someone come to your house for something illegal. It puts everything at risk. 

Order online 24/7 and just wait. A product that can be trusted and the potency advertised and guaranteed.



> Saying they rescued the markets might be a little much. Many of the record labels were losing money until recently when digital sales took them out of a loss position. There will be a price at which theft is beside the point, but I'm not sure even 99 cents is low enough to be that point. I'm sure that illegal movie downloads are down simply because of services like Netflix and Hulu that provide so much unlimited content that there aren't enough hours in the day to watch anything else.


I think you are agreeing with me if you are saying Hulu and Netflix are the reason for the decline in piracy.

I can't get into specifics but I was part of a company that had a technological solution to piracy in the Napster and edonkey days. Let me tell you speaking first hand with record labels and the RIAA those guys were driving the ship full steam into the iceberg.


----------



## SINC

I never did understand anyone using dope in the first place. Had plenty of chances over my nearly 75 years on the panet and turned down every single one.

Couple of beers, a great wine with a meal, or a hot rum toddy at bedtime, I'm good. No need for anything more.

Now PM TrueDope is trying to hook the entire country on that crap.

Must be his dumb down the populace, do whatever you want with them once they are hooked thing.


----------



## FeXL

smashedbanana said:


> Order online 24/7 and just wait. A product that can be trusted and the potency advertised and guaranteed.


So, I'm not a pot smoker but I have friends who are. No way in hell they're going to buy "legal" pot. Period. They have their reasons.

And, quite frankly, if I _was_ a dope smoker, there'd be no way in hell I'd buy "legal" pot, either.

There are a number of reasons but one of the foremost would be simply a matter of principle: the f'ing gov't already taxes me nearly to death. No way I'm contributing a red cent further.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> So, I'm not a pot smoker but I have friends who are. No way in hell they're going to buy "legal" pot. Period. They have their reasons.
> 
> And, quite frankly, if I _was_ a dope smoker, there'd be no way in hell I'd buy "legal" pot, either.
> 
> There are a number of reasons but one of the foremost would be simply a matter of principle: the f'ing gov't already taxes me nearly to death. No way I'm contributing a red cent further.


That's great. But your friends will be the exception, and one day the bygone era.

The world runs on convenience now. Don't believe me? Step off the forum bust out some paper, hand write me a retort and mail it via Canadapost.


----------



## FeXL

smashedbanana said:


> The world runs on convenience now.


Convenience is fine to a point but maybe it's different in the urban vs rural areas. I know a ton of people in the area from all the service jobs I've had over the years & it's safe to say that not very many would be comfortable sitting at home & having everything delivered to the front door. Whether groceries, sundries, clothes, tools & equipment, home furnishings, parts, dope, mail, whatever. It's just a different mindset.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> It will win out for sure. If it wasn't the winning formula then Amazon would not be king. Maybe older, non-technical people will still buy from a dealer. But why have someone come to your house for something illegal. It puts everything at risk.
> 
> Order online 24/7 and just wait. A product that can be trusted and the potency advertised and guaranteed.


I have no doubt that many people will be buying from the government approved stores, but I think the conversion will be smaller than the retailers anticipate. I have spoken to owners and managers of some larger cannabis businesses and there is a concern among some of them that the price of cannabis at government retail outlets is currently too high to compete with local product.



smashedbanana said:


> I think you are agreeing with me if you are saying Hulu and Netflix are the reason for the decline in piracy.
> 
> I can't get into specifics but I was part of a company that had a technological solution to piracy in the Napster and edonkey days. Let me tell you speaking first hand with record labels and the RIAA those guys were driving the ship full steam into the iceberg.


Yes, I agree that Hulu and Netflix priced the market below the tipping point where people want to pirate movies. But a big difference is that the amount of content they supply at that price is so overwhelming you can't watch it all -- why pirate when there's more content than you can watch? That aspect isn't reproducible in the cannabis market.

I have had some dealings with RIAA. They seemed unable to utter any coherent thoughts on piracy, other than hoping the government would punish pirates.


----------



## Beej

Tibetan-Canadian student politician, Uyghur rights activists come under attack by Chinese students in Canada
https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...me-under-attack-by-chinese-students-in-canada

No word yet on if she called China a sh*thole.


> Meanwhile, in nearby Hamilton, a coalition of Chinese students’ groups protested a talk Monday at McMaster University about well-documented human-rights abuses against China’s Uyghur minority.
> 
> The presentation promoted “hatred” against China, the groups argued in a statement, adding that they have asked the university to ensure the “dignity of Chinese students is not infringed.”


An example of how readily the language of social "justice" can be co-opted to police the speech of minorities. That's by design.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> An example of how readily the language of social "justice" can be co-opted to police the speech of minorities. That's by design.


Well said.


----------



## SINC

*Get the MPs out of the way and call the Mounties
*


> It’s clear that the RCMP now needs to be called in to investigate Justin Trudeau’s office.
> 
> Members of the Commons justice committee had a chance Wednesday to show they took their jobs seriously and wanted to know if obstruction of justice happened in the PMO.
> 
> Instead, they themselves obstructed.
> 
> The Liberals on the committee spoke about openness but offered the opposite.
> 
> This is serious stuff, and they were playing games.


More at the link.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...tofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## SINC

This is the best overview of the current mess created by Turdeau and his minions.



> *Gormley: Dumpster fire of a scandal may need a casualty*
> 
> This scandal is close to the stage where the public will need a human sacrifice, and not just any body to be offered up.
> 
> JOHN GORMLEY, SASKATOON STARPHOENIX
> 
> A good old-fashioned Canadian political scandal is underway, and no one knows if Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will emerge unscathed.
> 
> It began with a Globe and Mail report regarding alleged attempts by the Prime Minister’s Office to improperly influence former Attorney General Jody Wilson-Raybould into having the Department of Justice abandon a criminal prosecution of Canada’s largest engineering firm, Quebec-based SNC-Lavalin.
> 
> As the story goes, within days of Wilson-Raybould finally drawing the line that she would not interfere with the prosecution, she was replaced as Attorney General and, in the priority of cabinet rankings, bumped far down to Veterans’ Affairs.
> 
> This week, Wilson-Raybould resigned from cabinet and lawyered up, retaining a highly respected former Supreme Court justice.
> 
> It is beyond comprehension what kind of arrogance could lead Trudeau and his coterie of advisers to adopt the strategy they’ve taken.
> 
> Crisis managers know the first rule of scandal is control — agenda management, message discipline, forward staging, one single spokesperson and a complete seal on leaks.
> 
> But Trudeau and his politically inexperienced and ideological apparatchiks have done precisely the opposite, resulting in a complete dumpster fire.
> 
> The Prime Minister first called the Globe report “false,” offered no explanation and then stumbled through a parsed statement that his office had not “directed” Wilson-Raybould to do anything.
> 
> Over the next four days, the government bounced from pillar to post and sent many different messages to various journalists — all leaked and off the record.
> 
> Then, as Wilson-Raybould removed herself from the story, citing solicitor-client privilege and cabinet confidentiality, Liberal spin doctors cast aspersions on her with stories of her being “Jodi-centric” and never being a team player.
> 
> As the PM’s story seemed to shift with each telling, he then summoned the media to explain that Wilson-Raybould herself had reminded him of a meeting he’d had with her in the fall on SNC-Lavalin but it was to tell her that decisions on prosecutions were hers alone.
> 
> Trudeau prattled on that “of course, her presence in cabinet should actually speak for itself.” A day later, it spoke, alright — when Wilson-Raybould resigned from cabinet.
> 
> Then the PM went on the attack, suggesting that everyone had followed the rules all along on SNC-Lavalin and if Wilson-Raybould didn’t agree, she should have spoken up. She didn’t, which makes her the problem.
> 
> Now, the Liberal-controlled Commons Justice Committee has blocked an attempt to investigate the case in a farcical session that would embarrass anyone with a smidgen of self-awareness.
> 
> Disparaged and publicly criticized, expect Wilson-Raybould to break her silence soon. And it’s going to throw gas on the fire. This scandal is close to the stage where the public will need a human sacrifice, and not just any body to be offered up.
> 
> Once Wilson-Raybould drops her bomb, the Prime Minister will likely be forced to clarify that while he spoke with her about SNC-Lavalin, the PM — of course because he’s good and morally right — was talking about public policy, all properly legal.
> 
> But it has since come to his attention that his most senior adviser — and chief architect of this government — Gerry Butts, who was in the room with the PM, may later have said some things to Wilson Raybould — unintentionally of course — that could have been construed as pressure, which is deeply regrettable.
> 
> So, the PM must do the only thing he can to restore confidence, which is to apologize to the nation and to Wilson-Raybould and, with a heavy heart, accept Butts’ resignation. With a bit of grovelling and some grandstanding by the PM — along with complete silence in the PMO — this might see the scandal burn itself out.
> 
> But even then, colour me skeptical.


----------



## Dr.G.

Happy National Flag Day Canada 🇨🇦


----------



## SINC

Soooouuuuiiiieeee!

*Conservative Party has a clear lead over the Liberal Party just 8 months out from the election*

The latest National Campaign Research Poll conducted among 1,590 Canadians revealed that the Conservatives (CPC) held a clear lead (37%) over the Liberals (LPC, 32%), while the New Democratic Party of Canada’s (NDP) fortunes continue their decline with the party remaining a distant third (14%). Maxime Bernier’s People’s Party of Canada doesn’t appear to be having a noticeable impact on the CPC.

https://www.campaignresearch.ca/sin...ral-Party-just-8-months-out-from-the-election


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Rps

Sinc, I think this will be a rare 10 province election..... usually it’s over by the time Alberta and B.C. votes, which contributes to the feeling of disenfranchisement..... not this time....will go right down to the wire. I don’t think Sheer resonates well, Singh, to a lessor degree has been “Trudeaud” by the NDP...and really himself. So that leaves the Maritimes going Liberal...possibly except New Brunswick....Quebec is a mystery but it won’t be NDP.... probably move to Liberal. Ontario will be split 40 to 45% Con, about the same for Liberals and the rest NDP.

Not sure about Manitoba....Sask and Alberta ....probably not Liberal or NDP. B.C. will be the decider....can’t get an accurate read from here...you might be in a better position. Would love to hear from our B.C. EMacers on where they think the split will run.


----------



## SINC

Well, first off I think you are wrong about Ontario. Up those Conservative numbers up to 50 to 55% in my estimation. Other than that I agree with your observations. As for BC, with well over 55% of BC residents supporting a pipeline, I doubt the Liberals can win the province given their pipeline record and the SNC scandal with Trudeau's approval rating in the tank.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Well, first off I think you are wrong about Ontario. Up those Conservative numbers up to 50 to 55% in my estimation. Other than that I agree with your observations. As for BC, with well over 55% of BC residents supporting a pipeline, I doubt the Liberals can win the province given their pipeline record and the SNC scandal with Trudeau's approval rating in the tank.


I wouldn’t underestimate the NDP in the GTA.....there are a lot of seats there. What I see happening is that the GTA is expanding.....in some respects it, ideologically, goes from London to Kingston..... I’m not so sure the Ford factor in Ontario will be that great an issue. In fact I can see Ford wanted a Sheer failure so he can run again as leader of the federal Cons. I’m leaning towards a substantially reduced Liberal win...and both Cons and NDP re-examining their leader choices....

I would welcome MacFury’s and other GTA residents view...


----------



## Rps

My prayer for the Liberal Party!


----------



## 18m2

Rps said:


> B.C. will be the decider....can’t get an accurate read from here...you might be in a better position. Would love to hear from our B.C. EMacers on where they think the split will run.


I know 2 people that are big liberal supporters here on the left coast. That's it.

Sheer is not a very strong leader, a nice guy and probably the least objectionable choice.

The NDP will always get some votes here.

The Greens will likely pick up some votes.

As far as your contention that the west's votes will be the deciders ... I doubt it. It never has been the case.


----------



## SINC

18m2 said:


> As far as your contention that the west's votes will be the deciders ... I doubt it. It never has been the case.


Have to agree given the history of every single election. It may be over after polls close in Ontario, as usual.


----------



## FeXL

AB & SK will go strong CPC, save a few Fruit Loop & Whacko ideologues here & there who will vote for the Commies.

BC will go left (whether it's the Liars, Commies or Whackos) because population. It doesn't matter what the 55% thinks, the lower mainland ideologues control the vote.

Manitoba I have no idea.

From here Ontario looks like it's moving to the right but I don't know if it will be enough. As with the BC lower mainland, Greater Tranna controls the vote.

Kaybeck is up in the air, but with all I have learned about their political corruption in the last few days, they'll sway towards anybody who buys them off and that's unlikely to be Scheep.

The Far East will largely go Liberal as they, too, enjoy being bought off with their own money. Once on welfare, it's a tough habit to break.

With this TGF regarding Wilson-Raybould, the observation has been made that Trudles has lost all First Immigrant votes. While that may be correct, I honestly don't know how many votes that actually translates into.

While Scheep is more Liberal-Lite than actual conservative, that may actually translate into votes as the center-left will find him less offensive than a hardcore conservative.

$0.02


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> The Far East will largely go Liberal as they, too, enjoy being bought off with their own money.


They're being bought off with B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario money. A bit like a matching contribution plan. Put in a dollar of your own and get matching funds from...some far off land.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> They're being bought off with B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario money. A bit like a matching contribution plan. Put in a dollar of your own and get matching funds from...some far off land.


:lmao:

Fair enough.


----------



## FeXL

Title's hilarious...

There’s Never A Malaysian Pilot Around When You Need One

From the comments:



> “Look at me. I’m @SeamusORegan & I’m flying on a private jet & I really feel the plight of Canada’s indigenous people where unemployed on reserves is 26% in Northern Saskatchewan.”


With his personal photographer...

Comments hilarious, too.


----------



## Rps

So.....just wondering if the sword Butts fell on was a Sabre or an Epee....... I guess he is now Trudeau’s foil......


----------



## SINC

Another failed attempt to distract the attention from Turdeau. Won't work though. Canadias are surely much smarter than that. Put the PM in court and prosecute him. Then put him in jail where he belongs.


----------



## SINC

So now it is reported that Katie Telford, Liberal chief of staff in the PM's office has also resigned and bailed. These corrupt bastards need to be ousted and Turdeau jailed.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> So now it is reported that Katie Telford, Liberal chief of staff in the PM's office has also resigned and bailed. These corrupt bastards need to be ousted and Turdeau jailed.


Telford is gone, too?! :clap::clap::clap:

That's _very_ interesting. Some have speculated that she was next in the succession line for Butt's job.

Oh, this is saweet!

Anybody else notice how quiet the Purple Perogy, _Foreign Affairs minister_, has been recently, as well? 

If anybody hasn't yet read the comments of at the SDA link I posted earlier at the JWR thread, here's the link. Long & well worth the read.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Related:

Butts out, scandal and questions linger



> Butts is out but the story won’t go away.
> 
> It seems odd that one of the most powerful people in the nation’s capital resigned on a holiday Monday over a scandal that has engulfed the government he served all while proclaiming his innocence.
> 
> Yet, that is what Gerry Butts did.


Related:

The SNC-Lavalin mess is all about Quebec votes



> It’s 2019. It’s a federal election year.
> 
> If you want to understand what is going on in Ottawa recently, you have to recognize that all of the major political parties are pandering to Quebec, home of 78 federal ridings, the second most number of seats of any province.
> 
> And unlike most of the seats across the country, the seats in Quebec are up for grabs and will determine who wins the next election.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Telford is gone, too?! :clap::clap::clap:
> 
> That's _very_ interesting. Some have speculated that she was next in the succession line for Butt's job.
> 
> Oh, this is saweet!
> 
> Anybody else notice how quiet the Purple Perogy, _Foreign Affairs minister_, has been recently, as well?
> 
> If anybody hasn't yet read the comments of at the SDA link I posted earlier at the JWR thread, here's the link. Long & well worth the read.


That Telford bit was retracted later last night, but check out what Kinsella of the Globe and Mail tweeted last night, so maybe there is more coming.

Looks like the PMO is imploding.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> That Telford bit was retracted later last night, but check out what Kinsella of the Globe and Mail tweeted last night, so maybe there is more coming.
> 
> Looks like the PMO is imploding.


Too bad on Telford.

Hmmm... Kinsella. I get the feeling that much of his crap is more along the lines of, "Look at me! I'm still relevant!". We'll see.


----------



## SINC

*'Everything's fine,' says Gerald Butts, as flames engulf the PMO*



> “Gerald Butts Out” is a hard headline to resist. But he didn’t extinguish all smoking material as he left. Not even his boss.
> 
> It feels like you’re Cory Feldman’s character in The Burbs watching an irresistible spectacle from his porch that just keeps getting wilder and funnier. It starts with this big shiny building across the street full of self-important people and bags of money and suddenly there’s a loud muffled bang from inside.
> 
> So you’re looking up wondering if you imagined it because buildings don’t go “Boom!” much. Then you see a few wisps of smoke from various cracks and the boss leans out and says “Everything’s fine. No problem here.” Suspicious.
> 
> It calms down briefly until there’s some sort of weird scuffling noise and a woman runs out the door while various occupants cheer or jeer her from the windows. Then more people shout that nothing is going on. That woman was just difficult, they loudly insist, but not — as the French say — difficile. Then someone hastily yanks those people back inside.
> 
> At this point the burning smell gets stronger. You think you spot flames. The people inside keep shouting that there’s nothing to worry about. Also, that they’re calling the fire department to investigate. But the investigators can’t come into the building or talk to anybody important. Nothing to see here. Except, then the Number Two guy in charge suddenly jumps out a window with his hair smouldering.


More at the link.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jo...tofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## eMacMan

Somehow this seems like the right moment to throw this out there.


----------



## FeXL

One more thorn for the bastards.

United We Roll



> The United We Roll convoy has reached Ottawa;
> 
> Hundreds of trucks are expected to roll into Ottawa Tuesday to protest the federal government’s policies on the oil industry.
> 
> The main portion of the United We Roll Convoy set out from Red Deer, Alta., last Thursday and made stops in Regina, Dryden, Thunder Bay, and Sault Ste. Marie before mustering at Arnprior, Ont., just outside the capital.
> 
> The rally is expected to occupy almost a kilometre of Wellington Street, in front of Parliament.​
> Those aren’t oil trucks. Those are Reichstag Fire trucks.


I know nothing about traffic patterns in Ottawa but it'd sure be sweet to see these trucks strategically parked around Parliament Hill so that even the MP's would spend hours in traffic every day, fuming.

From the linked article:



> Prepare to see Wellington Street packed with Alberta-plated trucks and closed to traffic Tuesday and Wednesday as the United We Roll pro-oil protest convenes on the Hill.
> 
> Ottawa police notified the public last week that Wellington Street would be closed between Kent and Elgin streets from 8 a.m. “until as late as after the afternoon rush hour both days.”
> 
> Organizer Jason Corbeil said demonstrations would be held on the lawn of Parliament between 11 a.m. and 4 p.m. Tuesday, and 11 a.m. and mid-afternoon Wednesday.
> 
> “Commuters should expect delays as alternate routes will be heavier than usual. Avoid travelling by car into the downtown core. Consider walking, biking or telecommuting, if you can. If you are travelling downtown, allow for additional travel time,” Ottawa police said.


----------



## SINC

Man, the federal NDP sure picked a winner for a leader.

*Ontario MPP Jagmeet Singh denied visa to visit India*

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new.../+Media&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Man, the federal NDP sure picked a winner for a leader.
> 
> *Ontario MPP Jagmeet Singh denied visa to visit India*
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new.../+Media&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links


While you comment is true.........5 years is a long time in politics.....


----------



## SINC

Incredible waste.

*This photograph (and others) of Harjit Sajjan cost Canadians $161,000*

https://nationalpost.com/news/photo...1000?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_


----------



## FUXL

*Pollin' piggies!!!*

Souieee, Souieee, Souieee!!!!

Hey y'all hurtin' albertin' yeller bellied convoy lovin' pigs. Great turnout on parliament hill y'all!!!!

Another aggregate poll pigs:


----------



## Macfury

Uses really old pre-scandal data, JImbo. Or don't you know what an aggregate poll is?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Or don't you know what an aggregate poll is?


Yeppers. Like concrete, it's one made with rocks! From Prog heads!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Rps

FUXL said:


> Souieee, Souieee, Souieee!!!!
> 
> Hey y'all hurtin' albertin' yeller bellied convoy lovin' pigs. Great turnout on parliament hill y'all!!!!
> 
> Another aggregate poll pigs:


Actually, MacFury and FeXL are correct....this is an absolutely useless chart showing what I can only assume is a biased interpretation for the results.


----------



## Rps

i think the greatest danger to Canada right now is the world view of our Prime Minister. His views on immigration will come back to haunt us and disenfranchise us from our allies.....just watch..... 

I have always been a Liberal but in the past few years both provincially and federally they haven’t earned my vote. While I have always supported the Liberal party’s ideal in principle Trudeau has to go. Not sure how many of us are Liberals here but we should work to have him replaced as a leader or Federally we will become the recent Ontario.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> i think the greatest danger to Canada right now is the world view of our Prime Minister. His views on immigration will come back to haunt us and disenfranchise us from our allies.....just watch.....
> 
> I have always been a Liberal but in the past few years both provincially and federally they haven’t earned my vote. While I have always supported the Liberal party’s ideal in principle Trudeau has to go. Not sure how many of us are Liberals here but we should work to have him replaced as a leader or Federally we will become the recent Ontario.


For the sake of the country, the Libs should have been talking about removing Trudeau long ago--this scandal is an opportunity for them to make things right and replace him.


----------



## SINC

Whoa, bad headline of the day contest begins!

*The hole that Gerry Butts leaves behind*

Stephen Maher: The second act of l’affaire SNC-Lavalin could be devastating for Trudeau, and it’s not clear he’ll be better off without his trusted advisor

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/trudeau-gets-his-fall-guy-gerry-butts/


----------



## SINC

Good luck with a Canadian government trying to control content of an American corporation on the world wide web. Dream on Liberals.

*Minister tasked with safeguarding election calls on committee to look at regulating Facebook, Twitter*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gould-facebook-twitter-election-1.5024900


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



SINC said:


> Good luck with a Canadian government trying to control content of an American corporation on the world wide web. Dream on Liberals.


The idea that a Liberal minister is going to "safeguard" _against_ a system that invariably favours the left is nothing more than codswallop in the first place.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



Macfury said:


> For the sake of the country, the Libs should have been talking about removing Trudeau long ago--this scandal is an opportunity for them to make things right and replace him.


The Liberals don't care about the country. They care about one thing & one thing only: the reflection in the mirror. The rest of us be damned.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> From “truth to power” to “silence for comfy fur”. She’s a Liberal, after all.


From the enclosed link:



> Wilson-Raybould, who resigned from cabinet at the height of the SNC-Lavalin scandal, attended Tuesday’s Liberal cabinet meeting and sat in the seats normally reserved for cabinet ministers.


W. T. F?

Gold in the comments:



> The steamy REEK of Corruption simply emanates from the Liberal party..As it ever was, no.?
> 
> The central Nexus is as always, Quebec where corruption is a FACT of daily life: Bribes, Graft, Payola, under the table deals and thousands on “the take”. A disease as common as the cold. One that spreads anywhere you have French Quebcers or their distant relatives living…I’ve seen/experinced it first hand whilst living in Cornwall – working Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec.
> 
> As for JRW…she may want to keep her mouth shut. Was she *NOT* the AG when this Criminal Code revision was added to a Budget Bill.?
> Was she not “in” Cabinet at the time.?
> Was she competely unaware of _WHY_ it was added and to/for _Whom_ it was directed/created Given SNC was the LARGEST Lobby Group in Ottawa for the past 2 years….?
> 
> So why would SNC getting a Deferred Prosecution Agreement *NOW* be an issue if said Bill was OBVIOUSLY VETTED by HER…and when she OBVIOUSLY Should have known for WHOM…?
> 
> Was she or was she not the ATTORNEY GENERAL..?
> Something does not ADD up here people..!!
> 
> As an Albertan….All can I say is this. Canada….get your **** together – & SOON…re-elect this pile of Disgusting Vile Globalist FILTH again in Oct..? and you may not HAVE a Country soon thereafter. BET on it. (that’s not saying Smiling Schmeer will be that much better…)


Links' emphasis.

Related:

It's time for an independent public inquiry



> This controversy — already prompting the resignation of Trudeau’s top aide, Gerald Butts — who said he did nothing wrong — isn’t going away until we hear from all the major players, preferably under oath, subject to cross-examination.


The cynic in me says this will never happen..


----------



## FeXL

Update to the first link in the post above:

Wilson-Raybould attends first meeting of cabinet she just left. Was this the deal?



> To quote the late William Goldman, nobody knows anything. The last twenty-four hours are proof enough of that. Whatever is going on behind the scenes between Jody Wilson-Raybould, Justin Trudeau and Gerald Butts is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside a clown car.


----------



## Beej

Rps said:


> I have always been a Liberal but in the past few years both provincially and federally they haven’t earned my vote. While I have always supported the Liberal party’s ideal in principle Trudeau has to go. Not sure how many of us are Liberals here but we should work to have him replaced as a leader or Federally we will become the recent Ontario.


Until the alleged corruption, there was little difference between Scheer and Trudeau. Some policies I didn't like, some I did, The SNC Lavalin thing could switch me to the "anyone but Liberal" camp next election. I was hoping to vote for a party that would make running surpluses a credible priority, but that may have to take a back seat.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> For the sake of the country, the Libs should have been talking about removing Trudeau long ago--this scandal is an opportunity for them to make things right and replace him.


Is there any precedent for that? I ask seriously.


----------



## Macfury

Not for removing a sitting Prime Minister. I meant simply to get him out of the way on a happy note as a new leadership convention is announced.



smashedbanana said:


> Is there any precedent for that? I ask seriously.


----------



## Rps

Remember we do not elect a Prime Minister we elect a Parliament. A Party can change its leader, who may or may not be the Prime Minister.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Remember we do not elect a Prime Minister we elect a Parliament.


That's the _theory_, anyway...


----------



## SINC

SSOOOOOUUUUUIIIIIEEEE!

Even the CBC admits they are screwed now.

*First post-SNC-Lavalin polls look bad for Trudeau Liberals*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-polls-snclavalin-1.5026798


----------



## SINC

Can't wait to see him jailed. Go Jody!

*Nelson: Justin Trudeau — Best Actor, for his portrayal of falling from grace*

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/c...tofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## SINC

Yep. THIS.

*Let SNC-Lavalin fail, if it must. Canada – and Quebec – will be fine*



> With new developments breaking daily in the SNC-Lavalin affair, the economic impact of the company’s decline (or demise) on Quebec is becoming increasingly obfuscated. This is a particularly sensitive issue in Ottawa, given that Quebec will likely determine the outcome of the federal election in October.
> 
> SNC-Lavalin is a global engineering and project-management company covering infrastructure, mining and energy, with operations in more than 50 countries and roughly 50,000 employees. The suggestion, indeed even the justification by some is that the alleged interventions by the PMO to save the company from criminal prosecution were to secure SNC-Lavalin’s future because of its pivotal role in the Quebec economy.
> 
> This conflates the fate of an individual firm with the economic activity and employment related to the firm. This was a common mistake during the debates in 2008 and 2009 about the potential failure of U.S. banks. Vested interests argued that the failure of individual banks could lead to the implosion of the entire global financial system, while not understanding that other successful banks and new entrants would absorb the assets and employees of failing banks. The real winners from the bank bailout were the owners (shareholders) of failing banks, who avoided the costs of bank failure.
> 
> The failure of a single firm, whether it’s a U.S. bank or a major engineering firm, doesn’t mean the end of the underlying economic activity or even the related employment. The reason is quite simple: customers still demand those services.


More at the link.

https://business.financialpost.com/...e-fine?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Can't wait to see him jailed. Go Jody!


From your linked article:



> Now the more cynical among us would quietly agree that letting a huge outfit like SNC-Lavalin pay a big fine but avoid a conviction and thereby put its very future in jeopardy is probably a wise move. Sure it smells, but sometimes when there are thousands of jobs at risk and the rest of the world does exactly that sort of deal to protect national interests, then leaders have to play the dirty game.


Screw that. The law is the law. Abide by it or face the penalty.

Period.

Related:

(from your _Financial Post_ link)

Let SNC-Lavalin fail, if it must. Canada – and Quebec – will be fine



> The very public discussion now is about nothing more than crony capitalism, which entails firms requesting and securing special treatment and privileges from government. In this case, it seems much more about protecting the wealth of the owners and executives of SNC-Lavalin, which again is essentially what happened in the bank bailout in the United States in 2009.
> 
> *The legal process should proceed as it would with any other firm.* And politicians, policymakers and Canadians more broadly should avoid conflating the interests of the owners of a specific firm with broader economic interests.


Bold mine.

Precisely.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I want October to the cruelest month for Sockboy... beejacon

For Trudeau, February is the Cruelest Month



> In his play Julius Caesar, William Shakespeare warned of the Ides of March. For Justin Trudeau, February seems to be the problem.
> 
> More here…..


From the article linked inside:



> There is so much we still don’t know because the PM won’t let Wilson-Raybould “speak her truth” as she put in the House on Wednesday.
> 
> *Instead, the PM wants us to take him at his word because he is an honourable man.*
> 
> Isn’t that how they described the men that killed Julius Caesar?


Bold mine.

My wet beer farts carry more honour than anything Trudles has ever done or said.

Comments gold, from whence comes this link & quote:

SNC-Lavalin lawyers rushed to prosecutors before MPs knew of proposed law change



> Court documents filed last month by the firm's lawyers say they contacted the Public Prosecution Service of Canada "in or about the month of April 2018, shortly after the Government of Canada introduced the proposed legislative changes to implement a remediation agreement regime."
> 
> This would have been weeks before many lawmakers — including at least one Liberal — tasked with studying the amendment were even aware of its existence.


Curious, that...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Article nearly a year old but as salient now as it was then.

Double standard for Alberta oil



> The federal government is not subjecting foreign oil imported into Canada to the same environmental standards is has imposed on Western Canadian oil.
> 
> Canadian companies that want to build pipelines now have to account for what are called upstream and downstream emissions before the federal Liberals will approve their construction plans.


More:



> After the death of Energy East, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation (CTF) decided to file access to information requests with the federal government asking whether foreign oil imported to Canada was subject to the new upstream/downstream scrutiny.
> 
> The answer, revealed Wednesday, is outrageous.
> 
> *Imported foreign oil is not subject to the same Liberal environmental regulations as Western Canadian oil.
> 
> Oil imported from Saudi Arabia, the U.S., Iraq or any other country is not subject to upstream/downstream regs.*


Bold mine.

Jes' one more in a long list of Prog hypocrisies...


----------



## SINC

Turdeau wrong as usual.

*Trudeau plain wrong about Harper's pipeline legacy*

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/c...eau-plain-wrong-about-harpers-pipeline-legacy


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Turdeau wrong as usual.


The thing that I find eternally puzzling is whether Prog ignorance is wilful or not. Is Trudles merely ignorant of the fact or is he cognizant of it & hopes that the millions of unwashed heathens are not, all the while producing a nice little soundbite for other Progs to parrot? 

It's like Climate Barbie & her observation about no poisonous snakes in Canada. (Yes, this one does bug the $h!t out of me.) Why didn't anybody in the audience stand up & call bull$h!t? I certainly would have. 

These are petroleum engineers, fer Chrissake. They been out in the field since day one. There are oil wells all over southern Alberta, smack dab in the middle of rattlesnake country. If they haven't actually seen one themselves, they certainly have heard the stories.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The thing that I find eternally puzzling is whether Prog ignorance is wilful or not.


Sometimes willful, but in most cases indifferent.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> ...but in most cases indifferent.


Can't disagree with that.

Whatever it takes, as long as the narrative gets out.

XX)


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further.

Canada: Scandal Involving P.M. Trudeau Linked to Libya



> So here is the Canadian government involved not only in possible obstruction of justice, but also in trying to cover up the links of SNC-Lavalin with the Gaddafi regime.
> 
> As Trudeau scrambles to do damage control, it should be remembered that he has embraced Islamic supremacists, as well as policies of open-door immigration, heedless of the costs of all this to taxpayers. Meanwhile, he perpetually downplays the dangers of jihad, to the peril of Canadian citizens.
> 
> Even the Liberal-leaning CBC noted that “in the week since the SNC-Lavalin story broke, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has changed his talking points several times,” and now risks “brand damage.” Between the Globe and Mail and the CBC, it doesn’t look as if the $600,000,000 bailout package that Trudeau pledged to media, widely considered to be a bribe in an election year, is working in his favor.


----------



## SINC

THIS. In spades. 

Colby Cosh: Michael Wernick spewed drivel while taking us all for fools

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/co...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1550853179


----------



## SINC

GOOD! Double good!

*Mark Norman's defence team hits Trudeau, Butts with subpoenas*



> ​Subpoenas have been issued to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his former and current top officials — including ex-principal secretary Gerald Butts — for any notes, emails or texts they may have related to the criminal case against Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.
> 
> The notes are being sought by the legal team defending the former vice chief of the defence staff against a single charge of breach of trust. Norman is accused of leaking cabinet secrets in relation to a shipbuilding deal.
> 
> The subpoenas were issued earlier this month as Toronto lawyer Marie Henein was preparing a motion to dismiss the case on the basis of alleged political interference.
> 
> The court order for notes includes both the prime minister and Butts, and also Trudeau's Chief of Staff Katie Telford, Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick and Zita Astravas, chief of staff to Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan.


More at the link.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5029737?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## SINC

Feminist Liberals reject female attorney general's authority?

Pretty much!

*How many times did Jody Wilson-Raybould need to say ‘No’?*

_Anne Kingston: Powerful men repeatedly refused to accept Wilson-Raybould's authority. This isn't a 'he said, she said.' It's a 'he, he, he-said.'_



> Since its outset, l’affair SNL-Lavalin has been framed as a “he said, she said.” More accurately, the messy scandal arising from allegations that the PMO pressured then-justice minister and attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould to give a prosecutorial break to the powerful Quebec company has been a “he, he, he-said,” while “she” consults with her lawyer about how much she can say. We’ll learn the answer to that next week when Wilson-Raybould speaks before the House justice committee.
> 
> Even before her testimony, however, an eerily familiar tale has unfolded, the last chapter in the spell-binding spiel from Michael Wernick, clerk of the Privy Council, this week before the justice committee. And that’s the spectre of powerful men not used to hearing “No,” not willing to accept “No,” doggedly pushing for a “Yes” from the person who ostensibly determines consent, then gaslighting her when they don’t hear it.
> 
> Through it all a question emerges: How many times did Jody Wilson Raybould need to say “No” before she was heard?


More at the link.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ot...need-to-say-no/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Beej

Unite clan Assman.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/assman-licence-plate-1.5030945



> Assmann now has a dream — to invite Dave and all other Assmans to the Assman Summit, where they will all pile into a stretch limousine, with an "Assman" licence plate as immortalized in the show Seinfeld.


----------



## SINC

*Why is $350,000 in Canadian aid being used to send homeopaths to Honduras?*



> Chagas disease (American trypanosomiasis) is an insidious tropical infection that begins with flu-like symptoms and can end with heart failure.
> 
> The only proven treatments are a pair of costly pharmaceutical drugs.
> 
> But a group of Canadian homeopaths say they can detect, prevent and treat the disease, and the federal government is paying to take their remedies to sick Hondurans.
> 
> Quebec-based Terre Sans Frontières (TSF) is spending $350,000 in aid money from Global Affairs Canada to dispatch more than a dozen volunteer homeopaths to Honduras over five years.
> 
> Homeopathy is an unusual choice for foreign aid because it rejects the basic premises of science and it's practised by people who are usually not medical doctors.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/fede...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


----------



## Rps

So.....in the only bi-election that counts...... Singh in or out?


----------



## SINC

It ain't over 'til the fat lady Singhs.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> So.....in the only bi-election that counts...... Singh in or out?


Out--narrowly defeated by Liberal candidate.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Out--narrowly defeated by Liberal candidate.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...QldF750iDEJ2x2NJ_sszq-f9UgKpmBKxeFwVirEs7PyDg

The election is today. Wait for the results.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...QldF750iDEJ2x2NJ_sszq-f9UgKpmBKxeFwVirEs7PyDg
> 
> The election is today. Wait for the results.


rps was asking for predictions.


----------



## 18m2

Macfury said:


> Out--narrowly defeated by Liberal candidate.


I don't think so. It will be interesting to see what votes the Cons and CPP pull from the Liberals.


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> I don't think so. It will be interesting to see what votes the Cons and CPP pull from the Liberals.


So who will win?


----------



## 18m2

I'd be willing bet 25 cents on Singh. 

25 cents kinda indicates my confidence. 

I think Singh's win will make for a better outcome for the Commons in general ... better than a win for Lee.


----------



## Rps

18m2 said:


> I'd be willing bet 25 cents on Singh.
> 
> 25 cents kinda indicates my confidence.
> 
> I think Singh's win will make for a better outcome for the Commons in general ... better than a win for Lee.


My two cents will be a Singh win. I think this riding is fairly new...a blend of North and South I think....one was somewhat NDP and the other staunch NDP....so this was as safe a riding as they had. That said the politics of the province has changed and so has the Federal Liberals......the surprise would be if the Cons won this.


----------



## Macfury

I want Singh to win and continue his disastrous leadership of the NDP into the next election.


----------



## SINC

Liberals continue to self destruct. 

Trudeau government’s handling of SNC-Lavalin affair opens seven-point lead for CPC over Liberals - Angus Reid Institute


----------



## 18m2

Macfury said:


> I want Singh to win and continue his disastrous leadership of the NDP into the next election.


Another way to look at the DNP win.

I hope the NDP can regain some of their previous support and pull more of the left leaning votes from the liberals.


----------



## SINC

18m2 said:


> Another way to look at the DNP win.
> 
> I hope the NDP can regain some of their previous support and pull more of the left leaning votes from the liberals.


Yeah, that works for me too, federally that is.


----------



## SINC

What a farce. Turdeau has engineered a PR move and nothing more. She still cannot spill the beans on HIM.

*Trudeau keeps gag on Wilson-Raybould*



> The PM has said that his former attorney general can speak but he will limit what she can say.
> 
> Despite negotiations throughout Monday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has decided it is better to silence his former attorney general than allow her to speak.
> 
> It’s leaving political watchers wondering when it will be her turn to “speak her truth.”


https://calgarysun.com/opinion/colu...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551192780


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> What a farce. Turdeau has engineered a PR move and nothing more. She still cannot spill the beans on HIM.
> 
> *Trudeau keeps gag on Wilson-Raybould*
> 
> 
> 
> https://calgarysun.com/opinion/colu...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551192780


Privilege has been waived. My understanding she's only limited in talking about discussions with the current AG about ongoing cases.


----------



## SINC

Then why is she still asking for more? Read it again. All Turdeau waved was cabinet discussions. He did not wave lawyer client privilege which gags anything said in private between her, Turdeau, Butts or anyone else in the PMO.


----------



## smashedbanana

SINC said:


> Then why is she still asking for more? Read it again. All Turdeau waved was cabinet discussions. He did not wave lawyer client privilege which gags anything said in private between her, Turdeau, Butts or anyone else in the PMO.


"The OIC waived cabinet confidence and solicitor-client privilege for Wilson-Raybould in her conversations with the justice committee and the ethics commissioner. The waiver does not cover communications between Wilson-Raybould and the director of public prosecutions — a limit imposed to "uphold the integrity of any criminal or civil proceedings," according to the text of the order."


----------



## SINC

Well, I misinterpreted that, didn't I? Remains to be seen how much she will divulge. I hope it is lots and involves Turdeau himself.


----------



## SINC

Ah, this explains the remaining gag order:

https://canoe.com/news/national/wil...esday-afternoon/amp?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Ah, this explains the remaining gag order:


Well, isn't that bloody convenient...


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Your tax $$$ at work.

I'm from the government...

...I'm here to save you...



> As the federal government *forges ahead* to replace the Phoenix payroll system, internal government documents obtained by CBC News say clearing the backlog is *at least three to five years away*, and "overall stability" won't be achieved for 10 or more years.
> 
> This week marks three years since the launch of Phoenix, the IBM-customized system that went live on Feb. 24, 2016.
> 
> Since then, *tens of thousands of workers have been burned by Phoenix* with some going months with little or no pay while others were overpaid.


More:



> ...
> 
> Total: $1.192 billion.


For a system that _still_ doesn't work.

Only the federal gov't...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Your tax $$$ at work, too.

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> Why is $350,000 in Canadian aid being used to send homeopaths to Honduras?


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

One can only hope this letter sent yesterday results in action.


----------



## FeXL

Canada Creates ‘Risk Tracking Database’ with Disturbing Parallels to China’s Social Credit System



> Some of the concerns about the RTD system are common to discussions about massive databases and artificial intelligence systems, which can scan and filter information with such speed and power that it redefines concepts like privacy and consent. A dozen relatively innocuous databases can be fused into a significant threat to privacy by algorithms that can tie the information together in the right way. Or perhaps in the wrong way, as Motherboard quotes concerns about the system making incorrect inferences or misidentifying people.


I'm from the gov't. I'm here to help you...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Bang! Zoom! You’re Going To Da Moon!



> Trudeau announces another contract for Bombardier.


Knowing now how business is conducted in Kaybeck, I wonder how many of my tax $$$ were used as graft for this little project...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

CBC non-story an attempt to back up Trudeau’s social media crackdown



> I recently learned that Canada’s state broadcaster spent resources trying to investigate me and my social media. And the Prime Minister’s Office took an interest.
> 
> The CBC attempted what amounts to a smear campaign against, among others, myself, Ezra Levant and Barbara Kay.
> 
> You might have seen the story online. The alarmist headline read: “Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigration and pipelines in Canada, data show: 9M troll tweets released by Twitter reveal foreign campaigns to influence Canadians’ opinions.”
> 
> That’s quite the statement. And a reader could be forgiven for thinking that foreign agents posted nine million tweets about Canadian pipelines and immigration in an attempt to meddle in our politics and push propaganda. That’s what the headline says, after all.
> 
> But that’s far from the truth.


That's what half a billion $$$ in buyoff money gets ya these days...


----------



## SINC

*No one should be surprised that Trudeau disregards the rule of law — just look at Bill C-69*

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551441713


----------



## SINC

Sooouuuiiieee!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

_Not a surprise_ to anybody paying attention.

Black market pot sales booming in wake of legalization: Cops



> The federal Liberals legalized recreational cannabis in Canada last year promising it would inject billions into government coffers and eliminate the black market, among other things.
> 
> However, with so much money to be made, street-level dealers are still shooting one another and another big pot bust north of the city shows illegal weed sales continue to boom.
> 
> “Since the legalization of cannabis on Oct. 17, 2018, the increasing demand is creating additional opportunities for organized crime to be a supplier,” York Regional Police Chief Eric Jolliffe said in a statement released Wednesday.


----------



## Macfury

Why pay more when you already get home delivery for nothing? smashedbanana, you thought this wouldn't happen.



FeXL said:


> _Not a surprise_ to anybody paying attention.
> 
> Black market pot sales booming in wake of legalization: Cops


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> Why pay more when you already get home delivery for nothing? smashedbanana, you thought this wouldn't happen.


Really MF? This is where we are at? Like Fexl we are going to search out sources and then come and say I told you so no matter the context?

We had a discussion and I clearly said when the OCS gets their crap together. Its been a sh**show since it begun. Supply is an issue, the web fufillment is an issue, and the process to launch stores is slow and small-scale. 

If you want to convalesce about how bad the implementation of legalized cannabis has been, lets do that.


----------



## SINC

smashedbanana said:


> If you want to convalesce about how bad the implementation of legalized cannabis has been, lets do that.


The sorry truth is that the legalization was pushed through far too early when none of the provinces were fully prepared.

It was rushed out by this past October to meet the agenda of the federal Liberal party to ensure it had launched a full year before the next election. Its total aim was to get votes and not to make the launch a success from day one.

It will take a few more years to allow the system to work out the current mess and operate smoothly.

It's what happens when a government's political agenda takes precedence over proper planning, instead of vote garnering.


----------



## FeXL

1. Screw you.

I don't search out sources to fufill some sort of Prog-like narrative. I cite empirical evidence, measurable data, to support my argument. If you can find fault with that data, please, by all means, go for it.

If not, then GoTo 1.



smashedbanana said:


> Like Fexl we are going to search out sources and then come and say I told you so no matter the context?


The issue is that gov't has no business being in business. Period. In any way, shape or form. They couldn't organize a gang bang, let alone something as complex as marketing, buying & selling an actual product.

Case in point 1? Pot.
Case in point 2? Trans Mountain.

Everything else is noise.

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." Milton Friedman.



smashedbanana said:


> Supply is an issue, the web fufillment is an issue, and the process to launch stores is slow and small-scale.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Unexpectedly



> I saw it coming. You saw it coming. Why didn’t they?


I take "What is Basic Stupidity" for a thousand, Alex.


----------



## Macfury

This was your comment:



smashedbanana said:


> You do know that Canabis sales in Ontario are online though right? $5 flat shipping. Supply aside that's going to kill your door to door weed dealer.


They have already provided online sales and flat $5 shipping. There should be no reason then for illegal sales to _increase_. If you had been correct, even with incompetent implementation, legalization should have taken some of the wind out of the illegal trade.




smashedbanana said:


> Really MF? This is where we are at? Like Fexl we are going to search out sources and then come and say I told you so no matter the context?
> 
> We had a discussion and I clearly said when the OCS gets their crap together. Its been a sh**show since it begun. Supply is an issue, the web fufillment is an issue, and the process to launch stores is slow and small-scale.
> 
> If you want to convalesce about how bad the implementation of legalized cannabis has been, lets do that.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> 1. Screw you.


Classy! Right back at you ding-dong.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> This was your comment:
> 
> They have already provided online sales and flat $5 shipping. There should be no reason then for illegal sales to _increase_. If you had been correct, even with incompetent implementation, legalization should have taken some of the wind out of the illegal trade.


That's not the whole post and as I said "that is GOING to kill". 

Illegal weed sales absolutely went up during the early months days of implementation. Here in Ottawa 2 shuttered illegal dispensaries opened back up and accepted the fines. Why did they do that? A lack of demand...no..

Day 1 orders took over 3 weeks to ship. And all the stock sold out right away. 

Etc. etc.


----------



## Macfury

So why did illegal sales _increase_? Even delivery of _some_ government cannabis should have eaten into their sales.



smashedbanana said:


> That's not the whole post and as I said "that is GOING to kill".
> 
> Illegal weed sales absolutely went up during the early months days of implementation. Here in Ottawa 2 shuttered illegal dispensaries opened back up and accepted the fines. Why did they do that? A lack of demand...no..
> 
> Day 1 orders took over 3 weeks to ship. And all the stock sold out right away.
> 
> Etc. etc.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> So why did illegal sales _increase_? Even delivery of _some_ government cannabis should have eaten into their sales.


Well part of that is that overall demand increased.
Legalization meant at least to some people you could buy as much of it and not persecuted.

Second I'd question the data itself. How accurate was the tracking of illegal cannabis purchases prior to legalization? Where they really getting accurate answers to surveys for something illegal?


----------



## FeXL

About as much class as your observation about me, right?

There are times, SB, when you actually put together a cogent argument.

Invariably, however, you fall back into Prog mode and snipe just for the hell of it, with no underlying basis in truth or fact.

Keep the former. Lose the latter. We'll all get along better.



smashedbanana said:


> Classy! Right back at you ding-dong.


----------



## smashedbanana

FeXL said:


> About as much class as your observation about me, right?


I never said anything of the sort to you prior to your post. So you can have back what you give. You've made it a point to say you give back what you are given. So respect the practice and recognize you well deserve it.



> There are times, SB, when you actually put together a cogent argument.


I don't need your approval of how good or bad I put together my thoughts on this board. Such arrogance.



> Invariably, however, you fall back into Prog mode and snipe just for the hell of it, with no underlying basis in truth or fact.


Ya that's me in a nutshell. All short posts with snipes. Good work reading. Once again you confirm your own bias and speak to it. Likely in a vacuum soon!



> Keep the former. Lose the latter. We'll all get along better.


YoU changed the tone. You are certainly not the one to dictate anything to anyone.


----------



## FeXL

Ahem (and repeated from my OP):



smashedbanana said:


> Like Fexl we are going to search out sources and then come and say I told you so no matter the context?


Sounds like a shot to me. Definitely not a complimentary tone.



smashedbanana said:


> I never said anything of the sort to you prior to your post.


No, you don't. Please, carry on. Continue digging your hole...



smashedbanana said:


> I don't need your approval of how good or bad I put together my thoughts on this board.


Where did I note, "all"? Quote the exact passage. Be precise.



smashedbanana said:


> All short posts with snipes.


The tone was established prior to my response.



smashedbanana said:


> YoU changed the tone.


I can make suggestions to whomever TF I want. Don't like it? Leave. Put me on ignore. Something. Anything. Just quit yer whining...



smashedbanana said:


> You are certainly not the one to dictate anything to anyone.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

I see FeXL has found a new target for his bitterness. Hardly surprising. When one lays low, a new target will eventually appear.


----------



## Macfury

Nobody has forgotten you, Freddie!



Freddie_Biff said:


> I see FeXL has found a new target for his bitterness. Hardly surprising. When one lays low, a new target will eventually appear.


----------



## SINC

The world's dumbest leader . . . no question.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## SINC

Yep, dumbest SOB to ever lead Canada.

*Trudeau rewards a terrorist with citizenship*



> Zakaria Amara is a convicted terrorist, serving a life sentence for his role in a plot to murder scores of Canadians. And now, thanks to a Trudeau government bill passed through the Senate this week, Amara will soon be given the privilege of Canadian citizenship.
> 
> After all, a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, right?
> 
> In the case of Amara, this “Canadian” was born in Jordan and raised in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> He came to Canada as a teenager, became a Canadian citizen as a young man, and, by the time he turned 20, he was behind bars and charged with terrorism.
> 
> Amara was the ringleader of a sophisticated terrorist cell known as the Toronto 18. He recruited, trained and groomed fellow Islamist extremists and worked towards a deadly terrorist plot.


https://torontosun.com/2017/03/03/t...F8J6Kx-XPu-GurZEqeNumGG6oQf511AeUk4LGTjnlg5GA


----------



## SINC

Even the Liberal Mg, Macleans has turned against Turdeau.

*Justin Trudeau, my how you’ve changed*

Andrew MacDougall: Justin Trudeau looks like the un-smart, un-serious man that so many of his political opponents have always insisted he is.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/justin-trudeau-my-how-youve-changed/


----------



## wonderings

SINC said:


> Yep, dumbest SOB to ever lead Canada.
> 
> *Trudeau rewards a terrorist with citizenship*
> 
> 
> 
> https://torontosun.com/2017/03/03/t...F8J6Kx-XPu-GurZEqeNumGG6oQf511AeUk4LGTjnlg5GA


So painful to read that. For someone who speaks for the "real" Canadians he sure seems to be out of touch.


----------



## FeXL

From the Great Mind of a Prog...



Freddie_Biff said:


> I see FeXL has found a new target for his bitterness.


Freddie, how I've _missed_ you!

Going to be in town for a soccer tournament later this month. How's about I drop by the high school Fri after lunch, pick you up & we'll head out for a pint?

We could go to Oscars. It's a few blocks away but worth the drive, no?

What say you?



Freddie_Biff said:


> When one lays low, a new target will eventually appear.


----------



## SINC

*Justin Trudeau, imposter*

Paul Wells: The phoniness of the Prime Minister’s handling of the SNC-Lavalin file is a trait he shows the Canadian people all too often.



> The story a few Liberals were telling privately, in the early hours after Jody Wilson-Raybould delivered her extraordinary testimony to the Commons justice committee about the endless procession of men who tried to make her cancel a criminal trial for SNC-Lavalin, was that she just didn’t get it.
> 
> The former attorney general is a nice enough sort, the story went, but she doesn’t really understand the way the world works. The whole point of amending the Criminal Code to provide for deferred prosecution agreements (DPAs) was to make that option—a sort of negotiated fine in lieu of a trial for fraud and bribery—available to SNC-Lavalin. And if the option was available, why not use it? Jobs were at stake. Elections were at stake. Elections, plural, for Pete’s sake. First an election in Quebec last autumn, then a federal election this autumn.
> 
> So you could drag SNC through the mud of a court trial, long after the individual executives who actually did any frauding and bribing had fled the company, for what? To visit punishments upon everyone else in the company? To maybe scare it out of Montreal for good? To endanger the jobs of thousands of fine upstanding Quebecers and other Canadians? On the eve of elections? Plural?
> 
> All of this was just so obvious to everyone who leaned on Wilson-Raybould, it was said privately. What the heck was she missing? Why didn’t she get it?
> 
> If it’s any comfort to the former attorney general, at least she can rest assured that she’s not the only person who didn’t get that blindingly obvious fix-the-Criminal-Code-to-suit-SNC-Lavalin-and-save-jobs-and-Liberal-hides connection. Because also out of the loop were the people of Canada. And if we were out of the loop, it’s because Justin Trudeau and his apparently inexhaustible supply of yes-men worked hard to keep us uninformed.
> 
> No part of the plan to save SNC-Lavalin was presented to the people of Canada, while it was being deployed, as a plan to save SNC-Lavalin. Who had called for the thing? Small businesses and NGOs, a Justice Department official said when the House Finance Committee inquired last autumn. The Quebec engineering giant was never mentioned in her testimony.
> 
> 
> When the government inserted the DPAs into the Criminal Code, how did it announce the move? With a single paragraph on page 202 of the 2018 federal budget document, under the catchy heading “Addressing corporate integrity.” You really had to go to page 202 to learn anything at all about the scheme. Finance Minister Bill Morneau made no mention of it in his nationally televised budget speech.
> 
> And how was the DPA described on page 202, for insatiably curious or insomniac readers who might stumble across it? As a way to get tough on corporate wrongdoers. DPAs would be “an additional tool to hold corporate offenders to account,” the document said. They would “sanction criminal conduct appropriately and deter wrongdoing.”
> 
> Now, a federal budget document is a bulky thing, drafted and reviewed by dozens of government employees. They found no room in its 367 pages to mention that SNC had been pleading for this tough accountability crackdown for months. At massive expense. As a handy rule of thumb, corporate offenders don’t usually plead for additional tools to hold them to account.
> 
> Long story short, the government of Canada was telling one story to itself and another to Canadians. To themselves, they said they were protecting jobs. To the rest of us, they said they were getting tough. A government that indulges in that much sustained double-talk clearly thinks it has something to hide. It’s being disingenuous. It’s being phony. And since the lot of them never stop calling themselves #TeamTrudeau on Twitter, I guess we can, without fear of contradiction, say the Prime Minister of Canada has been the phony-in-chief.
> 
> If Trudeau is now saying his only priority was to save jobs, it’s because he got caught. If he refuses to say out loud what a majestic procession of Liberal minions kept telling Wilson-Raybould behind closed doors—that he was especially interested in saving Liberal jobs in back-to-back election years—it’s because that’s the kind of guy he is. He low-bridged a major change to criminal prosecutions while a large company was facing charges, depicting as a crackdown what was actually an escape hatch, because he didn’t dare simply say what he wanted. Didn’t think it would pass the smell test of the Canadian people. Didn’t think what he was doing was defensible.
> 
> And he was right.
> 
> And I don’t even need Wilson-Raybould to be any kind of hero to note that her response to this whole clandestine business was close to what my reaction or yours would have been if Trudeau and his legions had condescended to let us in on what they were doing: You’re going to do what now? You’re amending the Criminal Code to cancel a trial for a company that racked up a king’s ransom in lobbying bills to plead for this change? After the trial was already scheduled? No thanks.
> 
> She wanted to back the country’s public prosecutor, to let a court do what courts do every day: weigh and judge. He wanted to change the rules mid-game and hope we wouldn’t notice.
> 
> And the problem for Trudeau—who came to power promising a new era of transparency—is that this phoniness is a trait he shows all too often.
> 
> In 2016, when the Globe and Mail reported that the Prime Minister had attended a Vancouver fundraiser attended by Chinese billionaires—one of whom promptly donated money to the private Montreal foundation named for Trudeau’s father—the Liberal Party of Canada said no government business is discussed at such events. Trudeau later admitted they asked about policy and he talked about jobs.
> 
> Legalizing cannabis is one of the signature achievements of this government. But Trudeau has never been able to say he did it so affluent consumers could more readily get high. Instead, he had everyone in his government swear the goal was to drain the black market and keep the stuff out of the hands of teenagers. Neither goal has come anywhere close to being reached. Judged by the standards of a bake-off for the children of privilege, legalization has been a great success. Judged by the standards the Prime Minister claims, it’s a mess. The operating assumption seems to be that we’re simply supposed to read between the lines—that we’ll understand that when Trudeau speaks he is not to be taken seriously.
> 
> Why would he? In June 2016, I asked Trudeau whether he had a preference in the electoral-reform debate he had promised in the previous year’s election, and whether his preference would influence the outcome. It was the sort of question you ask even when you know the answer. Everyone knew Trudeau wanted preferential ballots, which would favour large parties like his.
> 
> He swore that wasn’t so. “I’m really open to listening to Canadians. And actually, I have moved in my thinking toward a greater degree of openness toward what Canadians actually want.” So while Liberals would prefer ranked ballots, “Canadians might not agree. And I think this is an important conversation to have, where we do have to respect Canadians.”
> 
> Months later, he told the Toronto Star editorial board that he wasn’t about to throw in the towel. “Canadians elect governments to do hard things, and don’t expect us to throw up our hands when things are a little difficult,” he said. “ ‘Oh, it’s more difficult than we thought it could be and therefore we’re just going to give up.’ No, I’m sorry, that’s not the way I was raised, that’s not the way I’m going to move forward on a broad range of issues, regardless of how difﬁcult they may seem at a given point.”
> 
> Eight weeks later, he abandoned electoral reform because the emerging consensus was for the reform option he didn’t like, proportional representation. I don’t even know what you do with a guy who acts like that. Eventually he took to wearing his abandonment of a key platform plank as a badge of honour. He wasn’t going to endanger Canadian democracy by keeping an election promise. Not all heroes wear capes.


https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/justin-trudeau-imposter/


----------



## SINC

*Moving the goalposts and lowering the bar*

Andrew MacDougall: The Liberals are frantically trying to normalize what their 2015 selves would never have tolerated, and their talking points are terrible.



> Sunday is usually a day of rest but the Liberals were hard at work yesterday trying to recast the hellish SNC-Lavalin scandal.
> 
> Battered by three weeks of unrelenting bad news, the Liberals have finally started the hard work of moving the goalposts and lowering the bar on SNC, in the hope that Canadians become confused about the allegations and what’s at stake.
> 
> Put differently: the Liberals are now frantically trying to normalize what their 2015 selves would never have tolerated. We’re not in sunny ways any more, Toto.
> 
> The Liberal arguments over the weekend were versions of the following: 1) deferred prosecution agreements (DPAs) are legitimate; 2) economic considerations can factor into the decision-making to grant said DPA; 3) “pressure” is in the eye of the beholder; 4) the system worked as it should; and 5) no laws were broken.
> 
> The first two points aren’t in dispute—although Liberals don’t like to remind us they brought DPAs in at SNC’s request—and the last three are dark muck being thrown over a what has always been a bright red line.
> 
> Yes, countries other than Canada have DPAs to get their dirty deed companies off the hook. And, yes, economic considerations can factor into the decision-making for the attorney general should they want to overrule their independent director of public prosecutions. What the Liberals would like everyone to forget is that these arguments were made by all and sundry to Jody Wilson-Raybould in September, and that she rejected them.
> 
> 
> More to the point, the Liberals would like everyone to forget that Wilson-Raybould’s badgerers also used last fall’s Quebec election and this October’s looming federal election as justifications for a rethink on SNC, a clear no-no. In other words, it wasn’t just the “jobs, jobs, jobs” brigade we’re now seeing being swung into action.
> 
> New attorney general David Lametti tried an even bolder tactic, appearing to suggest in his interview on The West Block that dictionary-definition partisan considerations like an election could factor into an attorney general’s deliberations. Lametti also claimed he had no idea Wilson-Raybould had declined the DPA for SNC, making him the least clued-in politician in all of Montreal. Well, other than that guy who stopped showing up for work in the House of Commons months ago.
> 
> As Paul Wells has noted in excruciating detail, it’s not like SNC hid its light under a bushel, taking out full-page ads in the Montreal papers telling everyone the government they had worked so hard to buy had screwed it out of the fruit of its labour. I’m not denying Lametti was put out to dance to a **** beat, but no professor of law should look so happy (or bad) doing it.
> 
> “Interference is perhaps the wrong word in that it implies something illegal is going on,” Lametti went on to say, perhaps not realizing, lost in the fog as he is, that it was Gerry Butts who, according to Wilson-Raybould, used that very word when speaking to her chief of staff. But wevs, eh? Because none of the potted plants in the Liberal chairs at justice committee will be pursuing that particular line of enquiry.
> 
> And hey, at least Lametti put his name to it, unlike most of the Twitter troll brigade leading the rearguard action on SNC over the weekend.
> 
> As did Ralph Goodale, to be fair, who was sent out on CTV’s Question Period to say that “pressure is obviously in the eye of the beholder”, in reference to the four hours of ‘try again, stupid’ detailed in Wilson-Raybould’s testimony at the justice committee.
> 
> Now, that might hold true when it comes to the pressure of reciting b.s. lines on television, but you know Goodale doesn’t want Canadians revisiting the greatest pressure hits of last week’s session. Rockets like:
> 
> “There is no solution here that does not involve some interference.” (Gerry Butts, ex-principal secretary)
> 
> “We don’t want to debate legalities anymore.” (Katie Telford, chief of staff)
> 
> “I think [Trudeau] is going to find a way to get [the DPA] done, one way or another. He’s in that kind of mood and I wanted you to be aware of it.” (Michael Wernick, (clerk of the Privy Council).
> 
> Of course, these are all quotes from Wilson-Raybould’s version of events, another ‘argument’ Liberals have been making over the past few days. Wilson-Raybould has told only “her truth” warned Chrystia Freeland, suggesting there might be an alternate universe in which finding a way to ‘get it done’ doesn’t involve sacking your attorney general and taking the guy who lives next door to SNC and making it his call as to whether they live or die.
> 
> Again, and to be fair, there might just be such a universe. But unless the Liberals at justice committee summon all the relevant players, we’ll never know.
> 
> But why are we even getting upset, some Liberals would have us ask? This scandal is boring people to death, former B.C. premier Christy Clark opined on QP. The company didn’t even get what it wanted! The system worked! This isn’t even a vegan nothingburger it’s so nothing!
> 
> If you’re a Liberal joining the former premier in making those arguments—and I like to imagine Ben Chin, Clark’s former staffer now starring for Bill Morneau in between his bouts of pressuring the former attorney general on SNC, is—well, then, congratulations to you, I suppose. How quickly you’ve fallen. It usually takes governments 10 years to go from “real change” to “meet the new boss, way, way, way, worse than the old boss”. Who knew the one thing the deliverology unit actually delivered on was in stripping away the consciences of those elected to the Liberal benches in 2015?
> 
> It makes you wonder what the Liberals are hiding. If not on SNC, then in Mark Norman’s case, another mess brought to you by Trudeau, Telford and Butts. It also makes you wonder what Butts is going to be put out to say when he appears on Wednesday.
> 
> Then again, going after Wilson-Raybould didn’t really work so well the last time, so I’m sure Butts will be wheeled out to shift the goalposts some more, and to lower the bar to the ground in the hopes we all give up.
> 
> Who knows? SNC might even get its DPA while Butts is in the witness chair. As Lametti also said this weekend: “no decision is ever final.”


https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/moving-the-goalposts-and-lowering-the-bar/


----------



## SINC

CBC continues to crap on Turdeau a good sign?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/st...QfMJtIBNMNR3Usp9iquUQENQ4SbHID6GOkZINpOFO-wYU


----------



## Macfury

sinc said:


> cbc continues to crap on turdeau a good sign?
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/st...qfmjtibnmnr3usp9iquuqenq4sbhid6gokzinpofo-wyu


2017 sinc.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> 2017 sinc.


S'okay. Any year, past, present or future, is a good year to crap on Trudles.


----------



## SINC

Yup, in spades.


----------



## SINC

*Justin Trudeau wanted strong women. He sure got 'em*

_That they’ve found him wanting and are willing to say so is proof of his success. It clearly never occurred to him they might take their job seriously enough to question his own performance._



> In an odd sort of way, Jane Philpott’s decision to join Jody Wilson-Raybould in quitting Justin Trudeau’s cabinet represents a significant success for one of the prime minister’s highest professed priorities.
> 
> Trudeau came to office proclaiming his determination to end the political power imbalance between men and women. He pledged to appoint women to 50 per cent of cabinet jobs. And not just minor posts, but important ones: health, justice, the environment, indigenous reconciliation, trade, foreign affairs.
> 
> And so he did. Now he’s suffering the repercussions. It turns out women really aren’t just like men, and aren’t necessarily afraid to stand by their beliefs.
> 
> Philpott’s public declaration that she no longer has confidence in the prime minister — specifically his handling of the SNC-Lavalin controversy — is as damaging an assertion as can be made by a senior government minister against her leader.


https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ke...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551797605


----------



## SINC

*Trudeau faces mutiny as Jane Philpott resigns*



> Monday was supposed to be the day that Justin Trudeau changed the channel to get Canadians to talk about a different political story than the SNC-Lavalin scandal and former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> After Monday, Canadians would be talking about the wonders of the carbon tax!
> 
> They had a plan, they had events, they went out to execute it and watched as one of their own blew it all up.
> 
> Jane Philpott resigned from cabinet.
> 
> Call it Mutiny on the Rideau.


https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-faces-mutiny-as-jane-philpott-resigns


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Awwww! And here I was, looking at a quick trip to Regina to tell Justa Turd, in precise & colourful terms, exactly what he could do not only with his carbon tax but also with his "rebate"... :lmao:

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> The store owner at Gordon Road has now assured everyone that the decision to give Trudeau a stage in Regina was done at corporate @canadiantire The event has been cancelled according to Regina store manager do to outpouring of calls detesting the support of PM
> 
> — Jason LeBlanc (@jasonauctioneer) March 5, 2019​
> (It’s probably nothing).
> 
> *Bumped for morning update*: Trudeau’s trip to Regina has been “abruptly cancelled”. No surprise, as the Canadian Tire stunt was tacked on so the taxpayer would pick up the tab for a Goodale fundraiser.
> 
> A “political civil war”? What hath Scott Brison wrought?


As always, gold in the comments.


----------



## SINC

*Rex Murphy: Drop the poses Trudeau – you owe this country a (real) explanation*

_Don’t talk fatuously of the 'bigger picture.' There is no bigger picture than whether you are morally entitled to govern._



> Fortuna, the wayward goddess, has abandoned her dalliance with Justin Trudeau. What he wins from here on, if he wins at all, will be on his own work, not her flippant favour.
> 
> The socks and the selfies are inert now, those props are dated, all their quaint magic gone. Even the rolled-up sleeves and the loosely knotted tie (his let’s-all-get-to-work look) come over now as a parody of the posing politician, the silk-vest patrician at the steel plant vainly affecting to identify with the sweating hard hats on the shop floor.
> 
> None of it is working anymore. The familiar gestures are all too self-conscious, the slogans dated and flaccid, the whole play-acting schtick is dead and worse — boring. And the speeches! Monday night’s in Toronto (to launch the election-year global-warming roadshow during a -19C cold alert ) verged on the manic; parts of the opening in particular were something you might have heard in the ancient Sunday morning revivalists’ broadcasts back in the Dark Ages of early television, Jimmy Swaggart or Garner Ted Armstrong raging against the darkness. It was eerie.


More . . .

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/re...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551807155


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Priapus drivin' Piggy!

Soooooouuuuuiiiieeee!!!

[email protected] just told us the new #Ipsos poll done for @GlobalNews has the Conservatives leading the Liberals by 20 pts in the densely populated #Toronto bedroom communities ( 905) *Yes the Liberals are losing in 905 by 20 pts.*

Bold mine.

Even the Progs are questioning his socks & hairdo today!

Sou!!!

:clap::lmao::clap::lmao::clap::lmao::clap::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> *First rule of dictatorships — when you sell yourself to dictatorships, they expect you to stay bought.*
> 
> Winnipeg-based grain handler Richardson International had its registration to ship canola to China cancelled at the beginning of March.
> 
> “Canola is our biggest cash crop in the province, so this will affect things right away and quickly,” said Agricultural Producers Association of Saskatchewan president Todd Lewis.
> 
> The Chinese government didn’t disclose its reason for blocking Richardson’s access, according to a Tuesday report from the Reuters news agency.​


Bold mine.

C'mon! All Justa Turd has to do is put on a suit with a Mandarin collar, a pair of embroidered silk shoes, top it all off with a paddy hat & head off to the Far East & make this all good, commie to commie, dammit!

PS Once again, a Turdeau manages to screw western Canadians. It's long past time to leave this $h!thole of a country...


----------



## SINC

He shouldn't have to resign, rather he should be punted by any responsible government.

*Top bureaucrat facing calls to resign, concerns raised over his role in next election*



> OTTAWA – Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick has been facing calls from the opposition parties to resign, and now there are new questions about his role on a high-level panel responsible for deciding when and how to inform Canadians about concerning online behaviour during an election campaign.
> 
> The most senior bureaucrat in the federal government has been in the media limelight over the last few weeks due to his involvement and interjections in the ongoing SNC-Lavalin scandal.
> 
> Wernick is scheduled to testify for the second time on the SNC-Lavalin affair on Wednesday, following his eyebrow-raising first appearance. Now, it's the role that Wernick is set to play in the 2019 election campaign and how this scandal could bleed into that position that's raising new questions.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/top...ised-over-his-role-in-next-election-1.4323014


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> He shouldn't have to resign, rather he should be punted by any responsible government.


There _is_ something to be said about tarred, feathered & rode out of town on a rail...

:clap::lmao::clap:


----------



## FeXL

So, there are a number of different kinds of morons. Without getting too deep into the various definitions, I want to address this type in particular: it's the basically stupid moron. The moron who calls others morons. The one who thinks that a Prog politician, _any_ Prog politician, possess the slightest hint of morality or integrity in the first place... 

Genuine... that's a good one



> Morons. They leak that they’re THINKING about apologizing - thereby ensuring it looks like a cynical comms tactic. Why not just DO it, and be genuine for once? “Trudeau considering a statement of contrition over SNC-Lavalin”


<snort> Funny guy, Kinsblah...


----------



## FeXL

So, there are a number of different kinds of morons. Without getting too deep into the various definitions, I want to address this type in particular: it's the basically stupid moron. The moron who calls others morons. The one who thinks that a Prog politician, _any_ Prog politician, possess the slightest hint of morality or integrity in the first place... 

Genuine... that's a good one



> Morons. They leak that they’re THINKING about apologizing - thereby ensuring it looks like a cynical comms tactic. Why not just DO it, and be genuine for once? “Trudeau considering a statement of contrition over SNC-Lavalin”


<snort> Funny guy, Warren...


----------



## Rps

A Future Prime Minister......


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

“Why should I sell your canola?”



> Yesterday I found 17 automated tweets disparaging the use of canola oil- all the same message, all released the same time, on the day China dumped our canola. What’s behind this? pic.twitter.com/TPWUNCZ5dF
> 
> — No to Bills C-48/69 (@annmcc123) March 8, 2019​


Curious, that...


----------



## FeXL

So, not only does Bombardier get hundreds of millions of my tax $$$, but it seems they're benefitting from a money laundering scheme to the tune of 10's of millions of $$$, as well. And, _and_, all this in a province known for corruption, bribery & crooked Liberal politicians.

Shell company tied to Russian tax fraud paid Bombardier tens of millions, documents show



> Leaked banking records show Canada’s Bombardier Inc. was paid tens of millions of dollars by a shell company that received money from the massive Russian tax fraud that cost accountant Sergei Magnitsky his life.
> 
> The records from Lithuania’s now-defunct Ukios Bankas − obtained by the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) and shared with The Globe and Mail − reveal that Bombardier was paid US$42.5-million over three transactions in 2008 by a company called Flashback Services Limited. All three transactions are marked “Aircraft Sales Invoice” or “Aircraft Invoice.”


h/t SDA, from which comes this prescient observation:



> Hmmm…
> 
> Is it just me, or does anyone suppose that, from a political perspective, the mooted Deferred Prosecution Agreement at issue in the SNC-Lavalin Affair, which, after all, only concerns the alleged illegal use of ordinary, everyday shareholder money, as opposed to, er, laundered money from criminal activity, was merely the opening precedent-setting play in a longer and bigger game?
> 
> Sort of the “thin edge of the wedge”? As a kind of “insurance policy” (to invoke an expression with some currency in another on-going North American controversy)? Just in (pardon the pun) case things start to spiral out of control for certain other Quebec-based businesses, who maybe are known for having received subsidies, maybe as recently as 18 months ago, from government of Canada?
> 
> You know, an “insurance policy” that might benefit a certain political outfit whose leader represents a Montreal-area riding and which has well-known ties to the business community in Quebec?
> 
> Oh, never mind…that’s gotta be CRAZY!!!! Especially with another former Attorney-General of Canada (of, um, the very same political outfit) working to put some daylight between the Quebec-based business involved in this new matter and the government of Canada.


Anybody else recall the quote from Lethal Weapon?



> Roger Murtaugh:
> Pretty thin, huh?
> 
> Martin Riggs:
> Anorexic.


----------



## SINC

A good read.

*Why a carbon tax does not work. *

https://davideganab.blogspot.com/2017/12/why-carbon-tax-does-not-work.html?m=1


----------



## SINC

If you don't despise Turdeau for his handling of SNC-Lavalin, you can despise him for Bombardier as well.

*Trudeau, Couillard defend Bombardier bailout after execs take home millions in raises*

https://globalnews.ca/news/3346938/trudeau-bombardier-aid-executives/


----------



## SINC

Yep, pretty much.

*Trudeau serves up crap, not contrition*

https://calgarysun.com/opinion/colu...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1552007594


----------



## Rps

I have a list of around 20 items which highlight why JT should not be our PM....his ego driven ideologically skewed world view, at least for me, has contaminated any chance of him regaining the popularity he had.....and we aren’t even talking about the up coming Norman case.

This leaves a problem for all those Liberal voters..... Sheer is a non entity...the Liberals inability to manage crisis ( especially those of their own making ) are gifts to the Cons.....but they, too, are missing this golden opportunity. Which leaves the NDP......to me, and under current circumstances, they will benefit the most from this spring and summer..... all I can say is....Look Out!


----------



## Macfury

Look out for Jagmeet?


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Look out for Jagmeet?


Yup....where else do Liberal voters go?


----------



## SINC

The NDP are the single most detested party by anyone who has ever had the misfortune to live under one of their governments.

And for those who have not yet grasped this bit, here you go: Canadians are not even close to having a PM wearing a turban, now or perhaps ever. That's why the NDP will never be elected as long as Singh remains leader.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> The NDP are the single most detested party by anyone who has ever had the misfortune to live under one of their governments.
> 
> 
> 
> And for those who have not yet grasped this bit, here you go: Canadians are not even close to having a PM wearing a turban, now or perhaps ever. That's why the NDP will never be elected as long as Singh remains leader.




That’s a pretty racist thing to say.


----------



## 18m2

SINC said:


> The NDP are the single most detested party by anyone who has ever had the misfortune to live under one of their governments.


I would have agreed with you but the BC Liberals have proven to be very corrupt and the Dippers have not screwed up yet or perhaps not been caught. On a personal level I like John Horgan where Cristy Clark always had an elitist aura around her and Andrew Wilkinson (current Liberal leader) keeps saying stuff that is just plain stupid.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> This leaves a problem for all those Liberal voters...


Quite frankly, Rps, Justa Turd is less of an issue for many Liberals than that first blush may indicate.

Why?

As long as it's _anybody but a conservative_, it matters not to some that the candidate has publicly had sex with a goat during question period. It's called blind obeisance to ideology.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s a pretty racist thing to say.


Not at all. It is simply a statement of fact that the country is not ready for such a leader no matter who I talk too. It is not yet mainstream Candian for most. Watch the NDP sink in numbers after the next election


----------



## Macfury

Turbans are not a race!



Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s a pretty racist thing to say.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Turbans are not a race!


You have to go easy on Freddie, he doesn't get a lot of things.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Not at all. It is simply a statement of fact that the country is not ready for such a leader no matter who I talk too. It is not yet mainstream Candian for most. Watch the NDP sink in numbers after the next election




Apparently you are ignorant of what the term “racist” actually means.


----------



## FeXL

Having being called a RASCIS'!!! by any number of Progs on these boards myself over the years, I can assure you that damn few of them know what the term means, either...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Apparently you are ignorant of what the term “racist” actually means.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

But The Dope promised that legal marijuana was going to take care of all these issues!!!

Police seize $1.7M worth of cannabis 'candy' in Vaughan and Toronto



> Police in York Region are warning of cannabis-edibles with little or no labelling to indicate they are anything more than simple candy after seizing $1.7M worth of illegal product.
> 
> Starting on Feb. 28, York Regional Police say they witnessed a “suspicious transaction” at a commercial building in the Keele Street and Steeles Avenue West area.
> 
> They moved to detain a suspect and allegedly found 400 grams of cannabis flower, $6,000 in cash and documents related to a dispensary on Baldwin Street in Kensington Market.
> 
> Police later conducted searches at a commercial property in Vaughan and at the Baldwin Street dispensary and allegedly seized cannabis products including “gummy bears, chocolate bars, lollipops and cotton candy.”


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

[Cliché Here] Is Their Strength



> It can’t get worse for Trudeau Demanding all his #StepfordMPs send out a fawning social media post about Dear Leader — but one forgot to complete the form.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I jes' luvs me the compassionate, intellectual, left...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Comment gold.

Hey, Piggy: How dumb is the average Prog politician? 

They are so dumb they can't even figger out how to [insert here].

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Soooouuuuuiiiieeeeee!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Anyone not know Trudeau is a fraud yet? He made it pretty clear in 2012.



> We knew Justin Trudeau was a fraud in 2012.
> 
> Don’t lie. We all knew. pic.twitter.com/0i4IWrFrMi
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) March 9, 2019​


Some of us knew. Some of us are still in denial...


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Apparently you are ignorant of what the term “racist” actually means.


Actually I do. Apparently you don't.

*rac·ist
/ˈrāsəst/
noun
1.
a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.*

I did not in any way discriminate against him. I simply said most Canadians are not ready to vote for a PM wearing a turban and that is a fact. Ask enough people and you will find out for yourself. That is a religious decision on his part and religion has no place in politics or government anymore. If he wants to be elected, he would have to remove religion from his presentation.

Other than that he appears to be an intelligent person, although I am not fussy about his previous ties to possible terrorism in particular, right now a murky area from what I have read. Seems the country of his ancestors won't even allow him to visit. Are they too being racist? Or do they know something we don't?

Not a racist thing about anything I offered as opinion.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Not a racist thing about anything I offered as opinion.




You keep telling yourself that, mate. Racists tend not to identify themselves as such.


----------



## SINC

Don't have to tell myself, but am trying to educate you. Which exact portion of the post is racist? Be specific.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie, let's approach this from a different angle. Condemning Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians does not in the least make one anti-Semitic or racist. As a matter of fact if you look up the meaning of the word Semite you will find it means those who speak a Semitic language. And guess what, Palestinians and most Arabs fall under that umbrella. So speaking up for Palestinians is in a very real semantic sense about 95% pro-Semitic.

Similarly pointing out that ones public display of his religion will handicap him in an election does not in the least make one racist.

You may not like certain particular facts but applying derogatory labels to those who point out such facts greatly undermines your cause, which in this case seems to be the glorification of anyone whose math skills are as weak or weaker than your own.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Don't have to tell myself, but am trying to educate you. Which exact portion of the post is racist? Be specific.




“And for those who have not yet grasped this bit, here you go: Canadians are not even close to having a PM wearing a turban, now or perhaps ever. That's why the NDP will never be elected as long as Singh remains leader.”

If you do not see the racism in this statement, you are blind. But feel good about yourself, Don, because you are among many other racists who think as you do.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Freddie, let's approach this from a different angle. Condemning Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians does not in the least make one anti-Semitic or racist. As a matter of fact if you look up the meaning of the word Semite you will find it means those who speak a Semitic language. And guess what, Palestinians and most Arabs fall under that umbrella. So speaking up for Palestinians is in a very real semantic sense about 95% pro-Semitic.
> 
> Similarly pointing out that ones public display of his religion will handicap him in an election does not in the least make one racist.
> 
> You may not like certain particular facts but applying derogatory labels to those who point out such facts greatly undermines your cause, which in this case seems to be the glorification of anyone whose math skills are as weak or weaker than your own.





Freddie_Biff said:


> “And for those who have not yet grasped this bit, here you go: Canadians are not even close to having a PM wearing a turban, now or perhaps ever. That's why the NDP will never be elected as long as Singh remains leader.”
> 
> If you do not see the racism in this statement, you are blind. But feel good about yourself, Don, because you are among many other racists who think as you do.


So eMacMan gets it and understands the term correctly. The teacher fails the exam as eMacMan so correctly pointed out. Scary for one who is charged with educating Alberta students.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Freddie, let's approach this from a different angle. Condemning Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians does not in the least make one anti-Semitic or racist. As a matter of fact if you look up the meaning of the word Semite you will find it means those who speak a Semitic language. And guess what, Palestinians and most Arabs fall under that umbrella. So speaking up for Palestinians is in a very real semantic sense about 95% pro-Semitic.
> 
> Similarly pointing out that ones public display of his religion will handicap him in an election does not in the least make one racist.
> 
> You may not like certain particular facts but applying derogatory labels to those who point out such facts greatly undermines your cause, which in this case seems to be the glorification of anyone whose math skills are as weak or weaker than your own.




You are an idiot, eMacMan. Just because you don’t understand a mathematical concept does not mean you are right. Didn’t Jagmeet just get elected in a byelection? There goes the unelectability argument. The math would seem to indicate that the one with the greatest number of votes wins the seat.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> So eMacMan gets it and understands the term correctly. The teacher fails the exam as eMacMan so correctly pointed out. Scary for one who is charged with educating Alberta students.




Don, you are an idiot as well if you think you’re brand of racism is even remotely acceptable in today’s world. Whether a person wears a turban or not is only an issue for fellow racists like yourself. For the rest of us, it doesn’t matter. Your only hope is that there are still enough fellow racists who think the way you do. And there probably are, especially in Alberta.


----------



## SINC

Winning a seat in a largely multicultural riding in BC is very different from what residents of other regions of the country consider to be 'Canadian', but ... Aw to hell with it. Freddie knows all and will be proven right in October and the NDP will triumph.

For now, his name calling when he is losing a debate continues, albeit tamed down slightly from past nastiness.


----------



## eMacMan

> You may not like certain particular facts but applying derogatory labels to those who point out such facts greatly undermines your cause, which in this case seems to be the glorification of anyone whose math skills are as weak or weaker than your own.





Freddie_Biff said:


> You are an idiot, eMacMan. Just because you don’t understand a mathematical concept does not mean you are right. Didn’t Jagmeet just get elected in a byelection? There goes the unelectability argument. The math would seem to indicate that the one with the greatest number of votes wins the seat.



And right on que Freddie perfectly illustrates my point further undermining himself in the process. 

Since we were talking about math skills or the lack thereof, an intelligent response would have foregone the again inappropriate labeling, in favour of an attempt to layout how your hero will pay to implement his various pricey policies. Of course he can't and you can't hence my reference to mathematical incompetence.


----------



## Macfury

You really hate your province don't you? It exudes from every pore.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Don, you are an idiot as well if you think you’re brand of racism is even remotely acceptable in today’s world. Whether a person wears a turban or not is only an issue for fellow racists like yourself. For the rest of us, it doesn’t matter. Your only hope is that there are still enough fellow racists who think the way you do. And there probably are, especially in Alberta.


----------



## Macfury

NDP voters would elect a fencepost if it was running.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Didn’t Jagmeet just get elected in a byelection?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Winning a seat in a largely multicultural riding in BC is very different from what residents of other regions of the country consider to be 'Canadian', but ... Aw to hell with it. Freddie knows all and will be proven right in October and the NDP will triumph.
> 
> 
> 
> For now, his name calling when he is losing a debate continues, albeit tamed down slightly from past nastiness.




When did I say the NDP will triumph? I am simply calling you out for your racist comment. And it appears I’ve hit a nerve.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> And right on que Freddie perfectly illustrates my point further undermining himself in the process.
> 
> Since we were talking about math skills or the lack thereof, an intelligent response would have foregone the again inappropriate labeling, in favour of an attempt to layout how your hero will pay to implement his various pricey policies. Of course he can't and you can't hence my reference to mathematical incompetence.




If you’re going to make fun of me and my “math skills” (repeatedly, I might add), then I get to return fire by calling you an idiot. Karma, buddy.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You really hate your province don't you? It exudes from every pore.




I love my province. That’s why I fear what the UCP is planning to do to it. And with good reason, having lived through the Klein years.


----------



## Macfury

When you crap all over SINC and he tries to wipe away some of the s***, you've "hit a nerve"? It must be inspiring to hear you share your daily victories around the dinner table.



Freddie_Biff said:


> When did I say the NDP will triumph? I am simply calling you out for your racist comment. And it appears I’ve hit a nerve.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> NDP voters would elect a fencepost if it was running.




It would appear that the constituents in his riding prefer him over any other member from any other party. This was a gen pop election, not an in-party election. Pay attention, Macfury.


----------



## Macfury

You keep saying that your province is full of ******** and racists.



Freddie_Biff said:


> I love my province. That’s why I fear what the UCP is planning to do to it. And with good reason, having lived through the Klein years.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> When did I say the NDP will triumph? I am simply calling you out for your racist comment. And it appears I’ve hit a nerve.


Oh, I dunno, how about here? 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Didn’t Jagmeet just get elected in a byelection? There goes the unelectability argument.


Seems to imply you think Singh will win come October while I predict the party and he will lose support compared to the last election.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, the NDP regulars voted for the guy who is destroying the federal party's finances.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It would appear that the constituents in his riding prefer him over any other member from any other party. This was a gen pop election, not an in-party election. Pay attention, Macfury.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You keep saying that your province is full of ******** and racists.




Too many of them, yes. But not entirely, otherwise a progressive party would not have won the last provincial election.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Oh, I dunno, how about here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to imply you think Singh will win come October while I predict the party and he will lose support compared to the last election.




You jump to a lot of conclusions. Is this what you call your rational thinking approach?


----------



## Macfury

There are too many progressives in Alberta to make the province truly successful. Without them the NDP protest vote would never have resulted in the disastrous Notley years.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Too many of them, yes. But not entirely, otherwise a progressive party would not have won the last provincial election.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Yes, the NDP regulars voted for the guy who is destroying the federal party's finances.




Must be more of them in that riding than any other party then. That must concern you.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> If you’re going to make fun of me and my “math skills” (repeatedly, I might add), then I get to return fire by calling you an idiot. Karma, buddy.



Even further undermining your credibility. If you have something intelligent to say feel free to spit it out. 

If you must limit yourself to attempting to attach derogatory labels with no foundation in fact, you will of course continue to destroy your own credibility.

FWIW I feel that math is a critical skill and view a weakness in that area as a serious problem. He who claims a 40% wage cut but denies the 238% wage hike produced by the very same formula, deserves all the flak he gets.


----------



## Macfury

It's sad to see this sort of psychological degradation in any part of the world. But there are professionals who can help.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Must be more of them in that riding than any other party then. That must concern you.


----------



## FeXL

Years later & multiple, repeated, _detailed_ explanations of why the commies got elected in Alberta and you still don't get it.

Un-gawdam-believable.

And you wonder why your skills as a teacher get mocked.

Go back to sleep, Freddie. In a few short weeks you can wake up, see your shadow & live with conservative government for the rest of your miserable life.



Freddie_Biff said:


> But not entirely, otherwise a progressive party would not have won the last provincial election.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Even further undermining your credibility. If you have something intelligent to say feel free to spit it out.
> 
> If you must limit yourself to attempting to attach derogatory labels with no foundation in fact, you will of course continue to destroy your own credibility.
> 
> FWIW I feel that math is a critical skill and view a weakness in that area as a serious problem. He who claims a 40% wage cut but denies the 238% wage hike produced by the very same formula, deserves all the flak he gets.




Please explain how you calculated a 238% wage hike. My wages have been frozen for the past seven years except for a minor increase of 2% three years ago. Sounds like your math “skills” are suspect.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Please explain how you calculated a 238% wage hike. My wages have been frozen for the past seven years except for a minor increase of 2% three years ago. Sounds like your math “skills” are suspect.


That was MF using the same formula you used to calculate your 40% cut, it was every bit as accurate as your 40% cut.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> That was MF using the same formula you used to calculate your 40% cut, it was every bit as accurate as your 40% cut.




So in other words, you’re not going to explain it. Is that because you don’t understand his reasoning or because you’re too lazy to make the effort? At least I attempted to explain my numbers even if you didn’t like the explanation.


----------



## FeXL

Further to this BS, there are arguably just as many Progs in Alberta now if not more. And, _and_, despite this fact there is no way in hell Red Rachel's cadre of _progressive thinkers_ gets a repeat.



Freddie_Biff said:


> But not entirely, otherwise a progressive party would not have won the last provincial election.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Further to this BS, there are arguably just as many Progs in Alberta now if not more. And, _and_, despite this fact there is no way in hell Red Rachel's cadre of _progressive thinkers_ gets a repeat.




Well it sure has been fun watching you squirm for the past damn near four years anyway. You can’t buy that kind of entertainment.


----------



## Macfury

You saw it as squirming? I saw it as FeXL rubbing his hands together in anticipation of the historic and permanent shellacking that the NDP will suffer. 

Still odd that you would enjoy someone's concerns over an exploding deficit that will saddle your own poor kids for years.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Well it sure has been fun watching you squirm for the past damn near four years anyway. You can’t buy that kind of entertainment.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You saw it as squirming? I saw it as FeXL rubbing his hands together in anticipation of the historic and permanent shellacking that the NDP will suffer.
> 
> 
> 
> Still odd that you would enjoy someone's concerns over an exploding deficit that will saddle your own poor kids for years.




Squirming all the way. You too. It’s like you’ve been in denial for four years that the NDP could have pulled it off. Yes, it’s been very gratifying if for no other reason that YOU WERE WRONG.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yes, it’s been very gratifying if for no other reason that YOU WERE WRONG.


Well, we all get our jollies one way or the other. In your case, you were wrong about the 40% years back and the racism today. But not to worry, I'm sure all here find that entertaining. Be even better in a couple of months when Notley is wiped off the face of Alberta and we can begin to try and undo the damage she has wrought.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> You saw it as squirming? I saw it as FeXL rubbing his hands together in anticipation of the historic and permanent shellacking that the NDP will suffer.


Precisely. I've been planning this celebration for 4 years! Not only that, but telling him over & over again how he was going to walk away from this TGF with less money in his pocket than under the conservatives. He didn't believe me!



Macfury said:


> Still odd that you would enjoy someone's concerns over an exploding deficit that will saddle your own poor kids for years.


Not only his children, but his grand-children!

I can see it now. Freddie, in his twilight years, Jamaican touque pulled low over his ears, settin' in the darkened living room in a rocking chair wrapped in a blanket in front of the fireplace 'cause it's too damned expensive to turn on the furnace & the lights, blues guitar in hand, his grandchildren at his feet. "Grandpa, grandpa! Sing us the sad one from _Blue Crimass II_ with the NPC cover yer ol' ehMac pal FeXL drew where you tell about spending our inheritance on interest payments & taxes by voting for Red Rachel."

:clap::clap::clap:

Congratulations, Freddie! You'll finally be a star! :love2:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL: The extent to which you will troll someone to find out background info about them is really quite disturbing. Glad I never took you up on that offer to meet in person.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> FeXL: The extent to which you will troll someone to find out background info about them is really quite disturbing. *Glad I never took you up on that offer to meet in person.*



Strikes me as a bit foolish on your part. Suggests you might be frightened to discover that your preconceived image might be miles off base.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Strikes me as a bit foolish on your part. Suggests you might be frightened to discover that your preconceived image might be miles off base.



I don’t go out of my way to meet up with disagreeable people in my regular life. Why would I go out of my way to meet someone who is nothing but rude to me? Give your head a shake, amigo.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

More trouble in UCP “paradise.” Seems not all members agree with the direction the party has taken. Not all that surprising, to be honest. 










 https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/mobile...4329733#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=scvBq


----------



## Macfury

That translates into a majority government for the UCP!


----------



## Macfury

Everything EhMac knows about you, you've delivered here yourself.



Freddie_Biff said:


> FeXL: The extent to which you will troll someone to find out background info about them is really quite disturbing. Glad I never took you up on that offer to meet in person.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Everything EhMac knows about you, you've delivered here yourself.




Except that for some of you, your penchant for bringing up years-old comments or images at will borders on creepy. Hell, it doesn’t even border—it is creepy. As though you’ve catalogued it. Makes one wonder if you have a life.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> That translates into a majority government for the UCP!




And how exactly did you jump to that conclusion from the information presented? What I read was that many of the old Wildrose members are not entirely happy with the new management i.e. Kenney. Please explain your reasoning. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Clearly Jason Kenney could use some help with how to talk to women.


----------



## Macfury

If you can't remember your own comments, don't lash out at people simply because they do. To the ill-informed, those things explained by science appear creepy and supernatural.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Except that for some of you, your penchant for bringing up years-old comments or images at will borders on creepy. Hell, it doesn’t even border—it is creepy. As though you’ve catalogued it. Makes one wonder if you have a life.


----------



## Macfury

You're grasping at straws. It's not going to change the steamroller effect that will earn the UCP a majority government.



Freddie_Biff said:


> And how exactly did you jump to that conclusion from the information presented? What I read was that many of the old Wildrose members are not entirely happy with the new management i.e. Kenney. Please explain your reasoning.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You're grasping at straws. It's not going to change the steamroller effect that will earn the UCP a majority government.




In other words, you’re not going to explain how you jumped to that conclusion based on the article presented.


----------



## FeXL

Who says we haven't? beejacon



Freddie_Biff said:


> Glad I never took you up on that offer to meet in person.


----------



## SINC

I can hardly wait for a similar article on Turdeau II.

*The disastrous legacy of Pierre Trudeau*

https://nationalpost.com/full-comment/david-frum-the-disastrous-legacy-of-pierre-trudeau


----------



## Macfury

My conclusion is that a few cheesed-off Wild Rosers are not going to change the outcome of the election.



Freddie_Biff said:


> In other words, you’re not going to explain how you jumped to that conclusion based on the article presented.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Who says we haven't? beejacon


I remember groovetube was just as eager to share a pint with you!


----------



## FeXL

Many of us aren't. 

First, I never liked the idea of the merger in the first place. Far too many of Prentice's _progressive thinkers_ still hanging around like warts on the backside of the party.

Second, I never cared much for Kenney as a federal politician. That opinion is unlikely to change with him provincially.

Third, as distasteful as Kenney may or may not be, he's going to be head, shoulders, ass & toe fungus above Red Rachel.

As for your article noting that Ian Donovan quit, he was previously elected as MLA for one of the local constituencies under the Wildrose banner, crossed the floor to Prentice's Conservatives & lost the subsequent election largely because of that. I hadn't even heard he was part of the board of yet another local constituency. Having voted for him once I (and many others) had high hopes for him but he let us all down when he crossed the floor. He's moved around so much I'm not sure he knows what he wants.



Freddie_Biff said:


> What I read was that many of the old Wildrose members are not entirely happy with the new management i.e. Kenney.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I remember groovetube was just as eager to share a pint with you!


Ah, the little drummer boy.

I wonder how him & all his wimmen are doing? 

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Not really...


----------



## FeXL

I'm sorry. Are you talking about The Bigot?



Freddie_Biff said:


> As though you’ve catalogued it.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Many of us aren't.
> 
> First, I never liked the idea of the merger in the first place. Far too many of Prentice's _progressive thinkers_ still hanging around like warts on the backside of the party.
> 
> Second, I never cared much for Kenney as a federal politician. That opinion is unlikely to change with him provincially.
> 
> Third, as distasteful as Kenney may or may not be, he's going to be head, shoulders, ass & toe fungus above Red Rachel.
> 
> As for your article noting that Ian Donovan quit, he was previously elected as MLA for one of the local constituencies under the Wildrose banner, crossed the floor to Prentice's Conservatives & lost the subsequent election largely because of that. I hadn't even heard he was part of the board of yet another local constituency. Having voted for him once I (and many others) had high hopes for him but he let us all down when he crossed the floor. He's moved around so much I'm not sure he knows what he wants.


Yep. When you're bleeding profusely, you don't care so much who manufactured the tourniquet. For Alberta's tiny cadre of NDP loyalists, the idea that Notley is failing beyond comprehension is not something they can perceive, so they continue to believe picking tiny holes in the UCP will be a game changer.

I have no regard for the Wild Rose floor crossers either. Had they not walked, they would be the government right now under Danielle Smith. The UCP was necessary only because of their failure, so they can suck it up now if they don't like the new game.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Ah, the little drummer boy.
> 
> I wonder how him & all his wimmen are doing?
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> Not really...


When there's trouble... call the wimmen!


----------



## FeXL

Perhaps he should take lessons from the honourable member of Elbowgate? Or the prime suspect in the groping of a Creston, BC journalist years ago, aka The Prime Groper? Or, that wunnerful, shining example of progressive feminism & perfect hair (albeit with a droopy eyebrow) & one who certainly would not pressure any fellow female Progs <cough-JWR-cough> into any sort of questionable moral issues, aka Justa Turd?

Yep, he's definitely the one to give lessons to Kenney...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Clearly Jason Kenney could use some help with how to talk to women.


----------



## FeXL

So, what's the thrust here? Calling someone out on a public board for their poor math skills is considered rude but calling someone an asshole on the same board numerous times is considered acceptable conduct?

Must be more of that erudite _progressive thinking_ on display...



Freddie_Biff said:


> I don’t go out of my way to meet up with disagreeable people in my regular life. Why would I go out of my way to meet someone who is nothing but rude to me? Give your head a shake, amigo.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> My conclusion is that a few cheesed-off Wild Rosers are not going to change the outcome of the election.




So much for creating a party run by the grassroots.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> So, what's the thrust here? Calling someone out on a public board for their poor math skills is considered rude but calling someone an asshole on the same board numerous times is considered acceptable conduct?
> 
> 
> 
> Must be more of that erudite _progressive thinking_ on display...



You’re one to talk. Told anyone to “fukc you” lately? It used to be your daily utterance at one time.


----------



## Macfury

No party is run by the grassroots!



Freddie_Biff said:


> So much for creating a party run by the grassroots.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> No party is run by the grassroots!




Kenney claimed the UCP would be.


----------



## Macfury

Notley too. I call it a wash on that issue. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Kenney claimed the UCP would be.


----------



## Rps

Many a truth said in jest........


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> Many a truth said in jest........
> 
> View attachment 89186


Would probably be funny were it not quite so dead on.

The thought occurs to me that SNCs attempt to buy their way out of it, going so far as to 'persuade' the Trudeauites to pass enabling legislation, is remarkably close to the same type of behaviour that got them into their current dilemma.


----------



## FeXL

A daily utterance, huh? How many days in a row? One? Two? Five? A hunnert?

Just went on a little search. Since May 2015 I've used it an _astounding_ 38 times. Sometimes I've told members off. Sometimes it was directed at a stupid Prog politician (BIRM). Sometimes it was used as an expression of exasperation. There were two instances I used it twice in one day. There were also two instances of back to back usages and only one of them was a shot at someone else.

As with most of your hyperbole, Freddie, it's baseless BS.

Carry on.



Freddie_Biff said:


> You’re one to talk. Told anyone to “fukc you” lately? It used to be your daily utterance at one time.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> As with most of your hyperbole, Freddie, it's baseless BS.
> 
> Carry on.


Are you challenging Freddie's math skills?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Are you challenging Freddie's math skills?


I'm asking him to reconcile an accusation of "daily" use with 38 occurrences over the course of around 1400 days.

Not even that new Prog math (365 days in one year divided by 38 occurrences equals a 942% decrease in NDP politicians in an election year. Or sumthin'...) will help here.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> A daily utterance, huh? How many days in a row? One? Two? Five? A hunnert?
> 
> 
> 
> Just went on a little search. Since May 2015 I've used it an _astounding_ 38 times. Sometimes I've told members off. Sometimes it was directed at a stupid Prog politician (BIRM). Sometimes it was used as an expression of exasperation. There were two instances I used it twice in one day. There were also two instances of back to back usages and only one of them was a shot at someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> As with most of your hyperbole, Freddie, it's baseless BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on.




38 “fukc you’s” is quite a bit for somebody who’s criticized me for language that’s considerably tamer.


----------



## FeXL

38 “fukc's" (they weren't all FU's) in 1400 days falls something short of "daily" utterances, by _any_ measure.

And, in addition to the plethora of difference's between you & I, I've never claimed to be virtuous, merely honest & direct. You're s'pose to be the virtuous one. 

The criticism comes when you fall off the wagon...



Freddie_Biff said:


> 38 “fukc you’s” is quite a bit for somebody who’s criticized me for language that’s considerably tamer.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> 38 “fukc you’s” is quite a bit for somebody who’s criticized me for language that’s considerably tamer.


The most obvious question being, why do you, or anyone else for that matter, find it necessary to resort to foul language in the first place? Tame or foul matters not.

Just quit and we would all be better off, (myself included when frustrated). I'll quit my meagre contribution first. 

Anyone else in?


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> The most obvious question being, why do you, or anyone else for that matter, find it necessary to resort to foul language in the first place? Tame or foul matters not.
> 
> Just quit and we would all be better off, (myself included when frustrated). I'll quit my meagre contribution first.
> 
> Anyone else in?



I've been making a serious effort along those lines as I am 100% sure that blue language never enhances the message.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> The most obvious question being, why do you, or anyone else for that matter, find it necessary to resort to foul language in the first place? Tame or foul matters not.
> 
> 
> 
> Just quit and we would all be better off, (myself included when frustrated). I'll quit my meagre contribution first.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else in?




Exasperation mostly. When I am attacked I fight back. But I agree; foul language generally does not help the message. Even when some people can really p*ss you off. Better if you don’t let it get to you.


----------



## SINC

Sooouuuiiieee!


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Sooouuuiiieee!


You know what's really frightening about those numbers? That after everything that's come out in the news in the last month, 31% of the idiots polled still think Justa Turd is worth a vote.

The human capacity for stupidity truly knows no bounds...

To those of you who would vote Liberal after SNC Lavalin: what national tragedy, embarrassment, FUBAR, TGF, whatever, would it take for you to change your mind?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Anyone else in?


Sorry, SINC. With all respect due, no.

After having being called every nasty name in the book by various Progs on these boards, including some -ists & -phobes I'd never even heard of before, I'm leaving my options open.


----------



## 18m2

I saw a post on Twitter claiming people that swear are actually more honest than people who don't because they express their real feelings.

So there ... FU!


----------



## SINC

The Turd, hard at work or a coward hiding out?

*As SNC-Lavalin affair simmered, Trudeau flew to Florida for a break*

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1552402840


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Sorry, SINC. With all respect due, no.
> 
> After having being called every nasty name in the book by various Progs on these boards, including some -ists & -phobes I'd never even heard of before, I'm leaving my options open.


I don't naturally cuss, so I don't do it here either. I will only call people out if they're hypocritical about using bad language--like Freddie, who condemns others, then does so himself.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> The Turd, hard at work or a coward hiding out?


I'll take "Where is Justa Turd hiding this week" for a thousand, Alex.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> The Turd, hard at work or a coward hiding out?
> 
> *As SNC-Lavalin affair simmered, Trudeau flew to Florida for a break*
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1552402840





> The NBC2 report described a team of 40 “Secret Service” protecting the prime minister and his family from a fleet of golf carts.


Not sure what the Prime Idiot did to offend an entire fleet of golf carts, but it must have been mighty serious.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Not sure what the Prime Idiot did to offend an entire fleet of golf carts, but it must have been mighty serious.


The bribe was probably too small...


----------



## SINC

This from an English language Quebec weekly. If so, Notley better drop her writ pronto if she wants to avoid two elections at once.

*Trudeau likely to call early May federal election*



> Is Justin Trudeau really relaxing in Florida this week to recharge his batteries and forget about the SNC Lavalin scandal? Or is he getting ready to hit the road for a re-election campaign?
> 
> Several good sources tell me that Trudeau will soon pull the trigger on an early May election. It makes a lot of sense. He cannot have this story follow him for the next six months. So after his party tables a good news budget, he will tell Canadians that he did the right thing by asking Jody Wilson-Raybould, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General at the time, to intervene in an ongoing criminal prosecution case against SNC Lavalin. He wanted to save jobs and if the opposition has a problem with that he will let the people decide.
> 
> Several suppliers who are called upon by candidates in federal elections have told me they were contacted already to be prepared to start printing material soon for a May vote. This would catch the opposition off guard. The Tories do not have all of their candidates (plus they have Maxim Bernier set to split votes in different ridings), the NDP are a mess and the Bloc Québecois are just getting to know their new leader.
> 
> Trudeau will clearly dump the disloyal Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott. The Tories would be wise to recruit them.
> 
> It is a calculated gamble, but one that could give Trudeau another four years in office.


Trudeau likely to call early May federal election | Cohen Confidential With Mike Cohen | thesuburban.com


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> This from an English language Quebec weekly. If so, Notley better drop her writ pronto if she wants to avoid two elections at once.





> Trudeau will clearly dump the disloyal Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott. The Tories would be wise to recruit them.


I'm not convinced. JWR is a dyed in the wool lefty and not someone I'd be interested in seeing crossing the floor, even for appearances sake. Better she run as an independent.

Philpott I know nothing about.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Christie Blatchford: Canada's youngest serial killer was moved to medium security. As usual, officials won't say why



> Hard on the heels of the transfer that raised hell last fall — the killer Terri-Lynne McClintic from a prison to a healing lodge — the Correctional Service of Canada has quietly moved another controversial inmate.
> 
> This time, it’s Cody Legebokoff, Canada’s youngest serial killer, who was recently shipped from maximum security at a British Columbia prison to medium security at an unidentified Ontario institution.
> 
> The CSC, in its usual opaque fashion, confirmed only that Legebokoff is “under CSC jurisdiction,” with a helpful citation of privacy interests and a perky reminder that transfers are done in the best interests of offender, offender management *and public safety*.


Bold mine.

Bull$h!t...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



Mafia leaders granted DPA after government claims their business could lose 9,000 jobs



> A major business in the drug trafficking, gambling, murder, loan sharking, extortion, and racketeering industry have been granted a deferred prosecution agreement after lobbying by the federal government.
> 
> “We have to consider that Rizzuto Inc. is an important employer in Quebec and across the country,” said Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. “And I’m an MP from this country so I have to do everything to save those 9,000 jobs whether you be the top boss or a lowly bagman.”


----------



## FeXL

Hey, where's our Priapus driving Prog, Piggy?

This one's for you! They've even got your costume, you ol' Schweinhund!!!

Canadian Taxpayers Federation presents 21st annual Teddy Awards for government waste



> The Canadian Taxpayers Federation today held its 21st annual Teddy Waste Awards ceremony, celebrating the best of the worst in government waste from the past year. CTF Federal Director Aaron Wudrick served as host along with the CTF’s pig mascot Porky the Waste Hater. The awards event took place on Parliament Hill in the West Block’s Press Conference Room.
> 
> The Teddy, a pig-shaped award given annually by the CTF to government’s worst waste offenders, is named for Ted Weatherill, a former federal appointee who was fired in 1999 for submitting a panoply of dubious expense claims, including a $700 lunch for two.
> 
> “It was bad enough to watch the prime minister’s costume changes and dance moves during his trip to India, but seeing the bill was even worse and we’re giving him Teddy Waste Award for the debacle,” said Wudrick. “British Columbia won in the provincial category for legislative officials who spent taxpayers’ money on everything from watches to baseball games and B.C. also got the municipal award for Vancouver’s email-a-tree program.
> 
> “In an unprecedented example of enduring waste, former-governor general Adrienne Clarkson won a _second_ lifetime achievement award for billing taxpayers for $1.1 million in expenses _after_ leaving office.”


FWIW, I live about an hour down the highway from Vulcan. I actually have few issues with this. The town's association with Star Trek is their claim to fame & creates a lot of tourism.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The biggest threat of election interference comes from Michael Wernick, not Russia



> The media let Privy Council Clerk Michael Wernick off easy for his disastrous second testimony, ensuring that the spotlight would be on the testimony of Gerald Butts, which was the real headline event of the day.
> 
> That being said, Wernick will serve as the head of a panel of government employees who will monitor this year’s election campaign, on the lookout for fake news and foreign interference. This is even after his disastrous Justice Committee testimony, and calls from the NDP for him to be fired.
> 
> That includes what Wernick himself called the “vomitorium” of social media, which has become an important aspect of staying informed of current events in Canada.


Yet one more Prog with a smug, self-righteous, punchable face...


----------



## FeXL

We Are All Treaty People



> Who needs a pipeline, when money flows in rivers from Ottawa?
> 
> Members of southern Alberta’s Blood Tribe voted in favour of a multi-million-dollar settlement claim on Tuesday regarding a century-old dispute about cattle management.
> 
> They will be receiving $150 million from the federal government as compensation for losses the Blood Tribe suffered in the late 19th century and early 20th century.
> 
> Three-thousand-fifteen eligible voters cast their votes with 2,966 voting in favour of the deal and 49 against.​
> I’ll assume the 49 thought it wasn’t enough.


Just <$50,000 per...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Gwyn Morgan: Talk about ‘collusion’: How foreign-backed anti-oil activists infiltrated Canada’s government



> This story has all the elements of a fiction novel. Unfortunately it’s real. Piece by meticulously researched piece, B.C.-based independent researcher Vivian Krause spent almost 10 years exposing the story. Every detail has been corroborated, including with American and Canadian tax records, together with documents and statements from the perpetrators themselves.
> 
> The story begins in 2008, when a group of radical American anti-fossil-fuel NGOs created their “Tar Sands Campaign Strategy 2.1” designed explicitly “to landlock the Canadian oil sands by delaying or blocking the expansion or development of key pipelines.” A list of key strategic targets included: “educating and organizing First Nations to challenge construction of pipelines across their traditional territories” and bringing “multiple actions in Canadian federal and provincial courts.” A “raising the negatives” section includes recruiting celebrity spokes-persons such as Leonardo Di Caprio to “lend their brand to opponents of tar sands and generating a high negative media profile for tar sands oil.”


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Out goes Philpott, in comes a green weenie.

Liberal MP Joyce Murray, vocal pipeline critic, named new head of Treasury Board in cabinet shuffle



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has shuffled his cabinet for the third time in three months following the resignations of two prominent members over his handling of the SNC-Lavalin affair.
> 
> BC Liberal MP Joyce Murray, a critical voice against the government’s approval of the Trans Mountain pipeline, will take over as President of the Treasury Board and Minister for Digital Government. She has served as the Liberal MP for Vancouver Quadra since 2008 and also ran against Trudeau for the Liberal leadership back in 2013.


Related:

Vancouver MP Joyce Murray named Treasury Board President



> Murray, a former provincial environment minister in British Columbia and MP for Vancouver Quadra since 2008, will be familiar with the work at Treasury Board, given that she was the parliamentary secretary in that portfolio since the Trudeau government took power in 2015. She was the runner-up in the 2013 Liberal leadership race that Trudeau won, and championed electoral reform during that contest, a policy that Trudeau went on to promise during the 2015 election only to abandon after he became prime minister.
> 
> She also opposed the Trans Mountain oil pipeline expansion, a massive infrastructure project the Trudeau government continues to promote in the face of opposition from environmentalists and some Indigenous communities. Earlier this month, she told the Tyee she was “very committed” to pursuading Trudeau to abandon the pipeline expansion, because she shares concerns over the project’s impact on marine life — especially the endangered southern resident killer whales off the B.C. coast—and Indigenous opposition.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

It’s Raining Money! Hallelujah!



> $22.8 billion in new spending. But first, this message from the Opposition benches.
> 
> ...
> 
> John Chittick summarizes in the comments: _Morneau – “free stuff” , “free stuff”, “free stuff”. Scheer – “cover-up” (afraid to criticize free stuff because he wants to get in on the give-away). Max – Liberal vote buying on the backs of the unborn taxpayers (from the only leader amongst them). Singh – “not enough free stuff”. May – “I like your free stuff and wish it came from me”. Canadian politics in a nut shell._


Also from the comments:



> So wait, the budget did not balance itself yet? Not enough h[e]art I presume?


Guess not.

Good ol' Porno Willie...


----------



## SINC

*Nothing to see here, says party desperately hiding something*



> “Canadians now have the necessary information to arrive at a conclusion.”
> 
> Given the Liberals on the justice committee released those words about their ‘investigation’ into the five-alarm fire that is the SNC-Lavalin scandal on the very day that Michael Wernick was claimed as another of its victims—based largely on his serial immolation in front of their committee—we’re going to need a new word for “chutzpah”.
> 
> Justin Trudeau has now lost his top aide, two of his top ministers, and the country’s top bureaucrat because of SNC, and the Liberals are asking us to “arrive at a conclusion”?
> 
> What conclusion do they think anyone can draw from trying to shut down inquiries into this clusterf–k, other than ‘these people definitely have something to hide’?
> 
> It’s breathtaking.
> 
> So bravo, Liberal Party of Canada; congratulations on achieving in three years a level of cynicism and contempt for the electorate most governments only reach at the tail end of their third mandate. It’s about the only thing the Liberals have managed to deliver that’s under-budget and ahead of schedule.


https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/nothing-to-see-here-says-party-desperately-hiding-something/


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> “Canadians now have the necessary information to arrive at a conclusion.”


Nothing quite like some good, ol' fashioned, Prog self-absolution, is there?

Awright. And my conclusion is?

Time to roll some heads. Bring out the guillotine...


----------



## CubaMark

_Seems that the Dept. of National Defence is nice and cosy with the shipbuilding companies, to the point where they don't even bother to answer media inquiries - they just pass it on to the company. The company, in this case Irving, of course, threatens the journalist with a lawsuit if he does his job.

Corporatocracy, anyone?_

*A reporter asked the government about a Navy ship — then got a call from an Irving president*
_'I asked the federal government for comment. Irving isn't part of the federal government': David Pugliese_










Ninety minutes after Postmedia reporter David Pugliese submitted questions to two government departments about a possible issue on a navy ship, he received a phone call from the president of Irving Shipbuilding.

Pugliese was following up on a tip about potential problems with the welding on the new Arctic patrol ships that Irving is building for the Royal Canadian Navy. He submitted his questions to the Department of National Defense and Public Services and Procurement Canada.

But instead of receiving a response from the federal government, he received a phone call from Irving Shipbuilding president Kevin McCoy, followed by an email from the company threatening to sue.

The defence department has confirmed it contacted Irving and informed them of Pugliese's identity, and says it is investigating whether this violates the Privacy Act.

"Regardless of that outcome," the department said in an emailed statement, "this is a matter we are taking extremely seriously and we have already issued interim direction to anonymize media requests pending further information."

Irving Shipbuilding did not respond to a request for comment.

* * *​
I was given some information that there were problems with welds on the Arctic offshore patrol ships. So those are being built at Irving Shipyards. The project's worth $3.5 billion.

At 11:16 ET on March 6 I asked DND and ... Procurement Canada, as it's called, to comment.

At 12:48 I get an email from Shawn Lewis of Irving Shipbuilding saying my inquiry has been brought to his attention and can we talk.

At 1:23 we do talk, with Kevin McCoy, president of Irving Shipbuilding.

And essentially 67 seconds into the conversation, he says I'm going to get, you know, a letter from their lawyer, which they followed up about an hour later.

(CBC)​


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Why are you surprised that our illustrious Prog government, run by an idiot whose sole qualifier & claim to fame is that he has _Nice Hair_, would pass the buck rather than actually answer a pointed, uncomfortable question?

This has nothing to do with Irving & everything to do with how The Dope runs this country.

A good leader would have called up Irving & held a press conference _with_ them, not just pawned it off to them.

And, I could care less about the hurt feelings of one of MotherCorpse's Federally bought & paid for "journalists"...



CubaMark said:


> Corporatocracy, anyone?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hello, Bigot.
> 
> Why are you surprised that our illustrious Prog government, run by an idiot whose sole qualifier & claim to fame is that he has _Nice Hair_, would pass the buck rather than actually answer a pointed, uncomfortable question?
> 
> This has nothing to do with Irving & everything to do with how The Dope runs this country.
> 
> A good leader would have called up Irving & held a press conference _with_ them, not just pawned it off to them.
> 
> And, I could care less about the hurt feelings of one of MotherCorpse's Federally bought & paid for "journalists"...


This never happens in Cuba where they don't have the industrial capacity to build ships, or the need to answer any questions!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> This never happens in Cuba where they don't have the industrial capacity to build ships, or the need to answer any questions!


I've heard that many Cubans can build a helluva raft, tho...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> Aaron Wudrick
> 
> In the 2015 election, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau promised he’d run “modest” deficits for a few years, then balance the budget in 2019.
> 
> The prime minister just released the 2019 budget. It wasn’t what he promised. And it’s worth counting the ways in which he misled Canadians in the process of breaking that promise.
> 
> First of all, there was the justification for running deficits. The economy was weak, went his argument, so we must spend to boost it. What’s more: Nothing gives a better boost than building infrastructure and the deficits will pay for it!
> 
> But then a strange thing happened.
> 
> The overall economy picked up soon after the Trudeau government came to office — the government gleefully took credit for the turn — and yet the deficits have continued each year anyway. Suddenly, the old argument was gone and a new one had appeared in its place: Economic times are good so we can afford to run deficits!​
> More: SQUANDERED INHERITANCE.
> 
> @JesseBrown – Details of the government’s newspaper bailout are here, and it’s all much worse than I predicted.


Jesse Browns posts on the newspaper bailout are an eye opener.

Related:

Party On, Media Party!



> Things you’ll never see on the CBC.
> 
> 8. But what's this? Once a legacy news org qualifies for a bailout, there's nothing I can see preventing it from getting salary subsidies for their journalists who do audio, video or data. So podcasters CAN get the subsidy, but only if they work for Postmedia, the Globe, etc.
> 
> — Jesse Brown (@JesseBrown) March 20, 2019
> 
> 16. Owners will get $13,750 per newsroom worker they employ making $55K or more. That's millions for the big orgs, & owners/mgmt can just keep it. We are talking about Paul Godfrey, the Thompson family, the Irvings… This is a government handout to millionaires and billionaires.
> 
> — Jesse Brown (@JesseBrown) March 20, 2019​
> Or Postmedia, or Global.


----------



## FeXL

Good on SK!

Saskatchewan Budget: Moe Better



> $34.4 million: Projected surplus.
> 0: New taxes or tax increases.
> 
> The rest of the numbers are here.


These two early comments knock it out of the park:



> this is what happens when you keep liberals out of government


and:



> Moroneau: “They balanced the budget!”
> Juthtin: “How do they expect to get re-elected?”


Yeppers.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

His gears are really going to be "grinded" when Kenney replaces Notley in a few short weeks!


----------



## SINC

Know what grinds my gears? Anyone who would even consider voting for the commies.


----------



## SINC

Another well-deserved kick in the cajones for Turdeau.

*MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes leaves Liberal caucus following criticism of Trudeau*

https://globalnews.ca/news/5077202/...udeau/?utm_source=630CHED&utm_medium=Facebook


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on self-balancing Liberal budgets.

Trudeau in 2015:



> "*I am looking straight at Canadians and being honest the way I always have.*


Bold mine.

Why, yes. Yes, you are...


----------



## 18m2

The New $10 bill is in a vertical format and cash machines can't handle it. 

What idiot in government decided to make the new bill without checking on its acceptability. 

https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...ng-upgraded-handle-new-10-viola-desmond-bills


----------



## eMacMan

18m2 said:


> The New $10 bill is in a vertical format and cash machines can't handle it.
> 
> What idiot in government decided to make the new bill without checking on its acceptability.
> 
> https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...ng-upgraded-handle-new-10-viola-desmond-bills


Not to mention that they dissed Canada's first PM to favour of some PC acceptable female of whom no-one has ever heard.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Not to mention that they dissed Canada's first PM to favour of some PC acceptable female of whom no-one has ever heard.


I've got to admit that I had no clue who it was. The whole design of the bill is jarring.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



18m2 said:


> What idiot in government decided to make the new bill without checking on its acceptability.


:clap::clap::clap:



eMacMan said:


> Not to mention that they dissed Canada's first PM to favour of some PC acceptable female of whom no-one has ever heard.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Article is from the US but equally applicable here.

Stop ignoring the brutal downside of legal pot



> Politicians are pushing to legalize recreational marijuana in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, following 10 other states. But the Parent Teacher Association, local health officials and pediatricians are pushing back, warning about the permanent damage to youngsters’ brains caused by weed. If you have children, trust the PTA, not the pols.


More:



> Legalization delivers what politicians want most — money and power. They’re salivating over the tax revenue and the authority to dole out licenses to growers and retailers. New Jersey will tax cannabis growers $42 an ounce.


Yep. And, just like in Canuckistan, the underground pot sellers will rule.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Yep. And, just like in Canuckistan, the underground pot sellers will rule.


The typical young male buyer is NOT going to go to a boutique to buy fancy-ass products in designer pouches at triple the price. Only the supplier runs a legal risk--and not much of it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Thing I don’t get about pot legalization is after all the efforts gov’t has made to demonize cigarettes by taking away the flavours, hiding cigs at convenience stores and putting death labels on every pack, why so much promotion for the pot industry? They are also cigarettes. Same question goes for vaping, with so many wonderful flavours aimed at kids. Seems like a confusing message.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Thing I don’t get about pot legalization is after all the efforts gov’t has made to demonize cigarettes by taking away the flavours, hiding cigs at convenience stores and putting death labels on every pack, why so much promotion for the pot industry? They are also cigarettes. Same question goes for vaping, with so many wonderful flavours aimed at kids. Seems like a confusing message.


Only if you believe the elite care one whit about the people on the street. 

On the other hand they are drooling at the prospect of excise taxes and licensing/franchise fees. Get the kids hooked early so much the better if that's where you're coming from.


----------



## Macfury

The fact that Justin Trudeau and his family are pot heads is a big part of it.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Thing I don’t get about pot legalization is after all the efforts gov’t has made to demonize cigarettes by taking away the flavours, hiding cigs at convenience stores and putting death labels on every pack, why so much promotion for the pot industry? They are also cigarettes. Same question goes for vaping, with so many wonderful flavours aimed at kids. Seems like a confusing message.


----------



## 18m2

Do you think the Conservatives will back this out and perhaps make simple possession no longer a crime?

I think this might have been a better starting point instead of going whole hog.


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> Do you think the Conservatives will back this out and perhaps make simple possession no longer a crime?
> 
> I think this might have been a better starting point instead of going whole hog.


I don't think the genie goes back into the bottle on legalization, even with the Conservatives in power.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> Do you think the Conservatives will back this out...


I have zero faith that Scheep will change _anything_ from the Liberal platform. He has proven himself time & again to be Liberal Lite & nothing more.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> I have zero faith that Scheep will change _anything_ from the Liberal platform. He has proven himself time & again to be Liberal Lite & nothing more.


What is reasonable is that he relegate Justa's ridiculous Carbon Tax legislation to the trash bin. Absolutely immoral passing legislation telling provinces they have to pass legislation.

What is even more reasonable and therefore very unlikely; Tell the US where to stuff their imposed by brute force FATCA-IGA, after all they have completely failed to make any effort at reciprocity. Enacting a total surrender of Canadian Sovereignty and making effective on Canada Day was an insult to all Canadians, not just those of us tainted by American blood.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> Thing I don’t get about pot legalization is after all the efforts gov’t has made to demonize cigarettes by taking away the flavours, hiding cigs at convenience stores and putting death labels on every pack, why so much promotion for the pot industry? They are also cigarettes. Same question goes for vaping, with so many wonderful flavours aimed at kids. Seems like a confusing message.


I think it is pretty simple, it is a popular issue and Trudeau seems to want to follow all popular trends. It is one of the reasons he comes out so strong as a feminist. 

Personally I believe in freedoms and have thought pot should have been legalized a long time ago (not a pot smoker). It is only now a real popular issue so our PM has jumped on the bandwagon.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> Personally I believe in freedoms and have thought pot should have been legalized a long time ago (not a pot smoker). It is only now a real popular issue so our PM has jumped on the bandwagon.


Based on principle I would legalize everything, but spend most of the efforts of government to ensure kids don't get it.


----------



## FeXL

Further on foreign influence peddling in Canuckistan elections.

How foreign groups influence our vote



> Canadians watch Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, comfortable in the belief that such foreign interference couldn’t happen here.
> 
> Except it did happen here. And while the Russians adamantly deny interference in American political affairs, the perpetrators of interference in the 2015 Canadian federal election not only devised and executed a plan aimed at helping to elect the party friendly to their cause, but publicly trumpeted their success in achieving just that. And then got a huge bonus when one of their most fervent comrades was appointed to the most powerful non-elected position in the country.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## FeXL

Diversity is our streng...

...sweet baby jebus...



> Among the items seized from currency exchange owner *Farzam Mehdizadeh’s* North York office were *nine Ontario driver’s licences*, and a brick of $20s wrapped in elastic bands and attached to a white bank envelope, with a $14,000 bank draft from a major Canadian bank tucked inside.
> 
> Eventually, Mehdizadeh would be *accused of laundering $100 million* in just one year in Toronto and Montreal. He has yet to appear in court, and according to colleagues, *he has left Canada for his native Iran*.


Links' bold.

Nice.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Y2Kyoto: Freezing The Middle Class



> And Those Who Want To Join It®: Enbridge Gas applies for 11 percent increase in Ontario gas prices
> 
> The natural gas distributor filed its application for an increase in January, saying higher costs associated with the federal government’s Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act (more commonly known as the carbon tax) would add increased costs that the company will need to recoup from customers.​


But wait! I thought Trudles' narrative was that the tax was revenue neutral. WTF?

Not another Liberal lie?

Gold in the comments.


----------



## smashedbanana

Freddie_Biff said:


> Thing I don’t get about pot legalization is after all the efforts gov’t has made to demonize cigarettes by taking away the flavours, hiding cigs at convenience stores and putting death labels on every pack, why so much promotion for the pot industry? They are also cigarettes. Same question goes for vaping, with so many wonderful flavours aimed at kids. Seems like a confusing message.


I agree 100%.

So much work has been done to stigmatize smoking. Opening the door to pot smoking seems like a step back.

But the government wasn't ready for any part of this. Let alone edibles, cremes, etc.

They had to yield to what industry was producing, even as we have seen the capacity isn't even there. 

Also coming out strong against pot smoking would have decimated liberal support and/or votes.

I think we will get there, but not even remotely the smart or logical way....


----------



## smashedbanana

wonderings said:


> I think it is pretty simple, it is a popular issue and Trudeau seems to want to follow all popular trends. It is one of the reasons he comes out so strong as a feminist.


I don't think he's just following trends.

I think he really does follow a belief of always doing what's right. The problem is he acts quickly - and honestly I'm not sure he's the smartest person. Or rather not sure he ever thinks first. Rather he acts first and thinks later. 

So many examples of this.

When he marched across the house to let pull the member through and elbowed that NDP girl. Was what was happening wrong? Yes. Was there other, smarter things to do? Absolutely.

When Bombardier was facing import sanctions he cancelled the Superhornet deal. Was that the smartest thing to do? NO. Maybe on a principle stand it made sense. But on a political, economic or even common sense stance NO.

I do think he is a feminist. But also a terrible politician.


----------



## SINC

Soooouuuuiiiieeee!

And to think there are still dumb-asses who would vote for sock boy.

*Trudeau now has a lower approval rating than Trump, with Tories way ahead: Ipsos poll*



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appears to have suffered more damage from the SNC-Lavalin scandal than U.S. President Donald Trump has from the Russia investigation, hush money payments to a porn star, alleged campaign finance violations, threats of impeachment proceedings and the litany of new investigations launched by Democrats.
> 
> That’s according to a new Ipsos poll, conducted exclusively for Global News, which found that Trudeau’s approval rating (40 per cent) has now slipped below Trump’s (43 per cent), even as the Conservative Party established a double-digit lead over the Liberals.


Details at the link.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5103763/trudeau-approval-rating-snc-lavalin-budget/


----------



## Rps

Sinc, that would be fine if we were a two party country but we aren’t . 40% is enough to get a second mandate. Besides, I think it’s too early to rely on pols as yet. Now Trudeau has a habit of creating scandals so we can hope....up next is Norman.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Sinc, that would be fine if we were a two party country but we aren’t . 40% is enough to get a second mandate. Besides, I think it’s too early to rely on pols as yet. Now Trudeau has a habit of creating scandals so we can hope....up next is Norman.


Well, it is not a party approval poll Rp, it is simply a one-man approval poll. 

Therefore it has everything to do with his party losing the next election. If people disapprove of the leader, they do not vote for the party he represents is the way I have seen it happen before. Robert Stanfield comes to mind in the past as an example.


----------



## SINC

. duplicate


----------



## Rps

You thinking 1968 with P.E.T.? In retrospect the Liberals ran a presidential election then............just like the last one they ran with JT...hmmmmmmm trend?


----------



## FeXL

Piggy!!! Sou!!!

Trudeau Gaffes Costing Him Votes



> Even women are leaving him…..
> 
> Much of the support that Trudeau is dropping comes from women over the age of 35. While the Liberals hold a slight lead over the Conservatives with women, 31% to 29% support, that is down from 35% support among women for the Liberals last month.​
> More here…


Related:

Trudeau apologizes after telling First Nations mercury poisoning protester, ‘Thank you for your donation’



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is apologizing for what critics called his “smug” response to protesters who hoped to draw his attention to mercury contamination in the First Nation communities of Grassy Narrows and Wabaseemoong during a Liberal fundraiser in Toronto on Wednesday night.
> 
> According to a video posted to Twitter that showed Trudeau delivering a speech during the Laurier Club event at the luxury Omni King Edward Hotel, Trudeau responded to protesters by saying repeatedly, “Thank you for your donation.”


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

In The Future, Everyone Will Be A Nazi For 15 Minutes



> BCF:
> 
> White supremacism and Islamophobia are among “the gravest threats” facing the world, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland told the United Nations Thursday. […]
> 
> _“Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, ‘incels,’ nativists and radical anti-globalists who resort to violent acts are a threat to the stability of my country and countries around the world,” Freeland said._
> 
> See what she did? “Nativists” “Anti Globalists” i.e. anyone who dares question immigration, open borders, multiculturalism and diversity is a Nazi.​
> To be fair, she’s one of the few people who’s seen a live one..


BCF notes:



> The comments on the CBC Tweet are pretty good, no one is buying her BS.


And this one, from SDA, I found particularly prescient:



> ...The Liberals continue to dig their own grave. *It seems counter-intuitive to me that you would come out and imply that voters are “white supremacists”, “Islamophobes”, “nativists” and “anti-globalists” in the run-up to an election but that’s what they’re effectively doing.*


Bold mine.


----------



## SINC

Freeland is so far out of touch with regular Canadians it is hard to imagine her ridiculous claims. Where does the sock boy find these people anyway?


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Freeland is so far out of touch with regular Canadians it is hard to imagine her ridiculous claims. Where does the sock boy find these people anyway?


Apparently there's no shortage of them in this country...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Growing The Economy From The Carbon Tax Out



> Layoffs at Fiat Chrysler plant in Windsor will affect 1,500 jobs.


First comment hilarious.


----------



## SINC

Here is an interesting opinion piece in The Georgia Straight worth a read.

*Martyn Brown: Mark my words, dear Liberals—the cops are coming and no privilege will protect you*



> I am beginning to think that maybe Justin Trudeau’s best hope for burying his LavScam scandal might be to hire Donald Trump’s attorney general, William Barr, or perhaps his former nemesis and now BFF, Special Counsel Robert Mueller.
> 
> Barr’s summary of the Mueller report findings reads like The Donald’s wet dream.
> 
> No (new) indictments. No evidence of collusion to conspire or coordinate with the Russians for electoral advantage. And not enough evidence to warrant charges of obstruction of justice.
> 
> Obstruction of justice? Pfft. “Totally exonerated,” says Trump.
> 
> “While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”
> 
> Many Liberals would probably be quite happy with a similar ambivalent outcome from the ethics commissioner or—god forbid, from the RCMP—as their beloved leader heads into the fall campaign.
> 
> Enough of being haunted by “groundless” suspicions of collusion aimed at the obstruction of justice in the criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin, they might now be thinking.
> 
> When the chips are down, who you gonna call? Ghost busters.


Much more at the link.

https://www.straight.com/news/12191...cops-are-coming-and-no-privilege-will-protect


----------



## Dr.G.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/when-ne...fk_6V958IG4sev1mtcv23TS9mCVhLAEspUXBJq-WDgAII

Today in Canadian history.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Coulda Had Max



> 1. CO2 is not “pollution.”
> 
> 2. Increasing gas prices by four cents will have zero effect on climate.
> 
> 3. You can’t “make life more affordable” by taking money and giving back a portion of it.
> 
> 4. You’re a liar and a fraud. https://t.co/a3hHOSgP6D
> 
> — Maxime Bernier (@MaximeBernier) April 1, 2019​


Sums it up for me.

Comment gold.


----------



## SINC

Yep . . .


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Yep . . .


While I appreciate the sentiment, SINC, you're trying to logic Progs. If Progs were logical in the first place, Trudles would never have been elected in the first place. There is no, zero, defence for him ever getting elected. Our cat, the stupid one with no nuts, has better qualifications...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Regina Rally: Anti-Carbon Tax Convoy



> Over 404 units went thru YELLOW GRASS from Weyb Estevan Carlyle Fillmore….this only 1 convoy…appears WORLD RECORD convoy #’s (590) OBLITERATED !!! @againsttax OUR PREMIER will ANNOUNCE the TOTAL! @PremierScottMoe pic.twitter.com/iUUQjgxLSR
> 
> — Marcel (@Marcelvanst) April 4, 2019
> 
> Stood out front of the shop in Weyburn for 45 minutes in support of the ⁦@againsttax⁩ convoy travelling from SE Sask including 18 vehicles from our company, Jerry Mainil Ltd. Hats off to all of the organizers & participants! #ReginaRallyAgainstTheCarbonTax #MakeNoise pic.twitter.com/RGocimZwYS
> 
> — Chad Ror (@C_RORRIS) April 4, 2019​


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> Now is the time at SDA when we swagger!
> 
> Swagger, May 2018: “No, we will not apologize for swaggering when it comes to talking about Canada and being confident in the future we are building together.”
> 
> Stagger, April 2019: The fallout from Saudi Arabia’s move to punish Canadian companies was felt within a month of the countries’ sudden diplomatic feud last summer, leading to visa rejections, a government ban on food from Canada and a blockage of shipments at the kingdom’s ports.


----------



## SINC

The pressure continues to build.

*The Liberals have abandoned their moral principles and it’s Justin Trudeau’s fault*

https://www.thestar.com/amp/opinion...principles-and-its-justin-trudeaus-fault.html


----------



## FeXL

Another, related, issue?

SNC-Libranos



> I sent this email to John Gormley on Thursday, but he didn’t pick up on it.


From the included link:



> *Wilson-Raybould took contemporary notes of what her staff member told her.*
> 
> "My COS (_chief of staff_...ed) asked what if the opinion comes saying "She can review it, but she shouldn't" or simply "She can't review it" end of story? *Mr. Butts stated "It wouldn't say that."*
> 
> BOOM!!!!!!
> 
> Read what Butts said again. And again. And again.
> 
> *"IT WOULDN'T SAY THAT"*
> 
> The implication of that statement screams out at you: The former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Beverley McLachlin was in on it. She was part of the conspiracy to interfere in the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin!
> 
> *It's obvious that the Trudeau conspirators wouldn't be suggesting an outside opinion without knowing in advance what that opinion would be.* They went to McLachlin, she said she would give the opinion they wanted, and all they needed was to convince the attorney general to get off her high horse and listen to her superior legal mind.


Links' bold.

Stunning.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Growing The Economy From The Heart Out



> Hopefully, more government hiring can turn this around: Canadian economy lost 7,200 jobs in March
> 
> A loss of 6,400 full-time jobs made up the bulk of last month’s decrease, Statistics Canada said. The number of employee positions in the private sector fell by 17,300 last month, while public-employee jobs increased by 4,200 and self-employed occupations rose by 6,000.​
> BONUS JUXTAPOSE: US added 196,000 jobs in March, vs 175,000 expected


----------



## Beej

Education spending is making headlines in Ontario and Alberta, so I looked up some statistics on student-teacher ratios.

The ratio of elementary and secondary public school students in regular programs to full-time educators (would be helpful if someone could double-check my figures):

2002
Ontario 18.7
Alberta 20.5

2015
Ontario 14.2
Alberta 18.7

There has been a long-standing and growing gap between Alberta and Ontario. In recent testing (PISA), Alberta students do better than Ontario students. If you have other outcome-based data for Alberta and Ontario schools, please post links.

I'm not sure why there is a common assumption that more teachers equates with better education outcomes, but it is worth questioning. Also, is Alberta's education system (excl post-secondary) benefiting from "$100 oil" wasteful over-spending? That's also worth questioning.

Update: I forgot about the Education thread. Oh well, too late now.

Sources
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv.action?pid=3710011301
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv.action?pid=3710000701#timeframe
https://www.cmec.ca/publications/lists/publications/attachments/365/pisa2015-cdnreport-en.pdf


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> The ratio of elementary and secondary public school students in regular programs to full-time educators...


A question: 

I wonder what they define "full-time educators" as? For instance, principals & vice-principals in smaller schools in Alberta do not teach classes full time. Some teach as little as one class/week, depending on the size of the school. In the bigger schools, vice-principals (of whom there may be several) & principals may not teach classes at all.

An observation:

I don't know how many smaller country schools there are in Ontario but there are some of them in southern Alberta. I can think of a half dozen or more. It's safe to assume there are probably dozens spread across the province in rural areas. Now, these are the exception rather than the rule but they will skew the numbers some. There is one such school NE of Lethbridge that graduated 12 students last year & has an average class size <10. Contrast that with say, my lovely bride, who frequently has classes >30.


----------



## SINC

Not hard to imagine this, is it?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister



> Return of the Mole: Trudeau Uses Photo Of Forest Fire Caused By Wind Turbine Construction Project To Sell His Carbon Tax Scam


You just can't fix stupid.

Comment gold:



> Turdeau’s reality distortion field in action … yet again.





> To be fair, a wind turbine looks an awful lot like a tree to person with an IQ of 75. Don’t be too hard on him, he is trying as best he can. It is just that he isn’t that capable. His best achievement every day is just to tie his shoes in the morning, if he manages to wipe his azz it is considered a super day.





> The sad part isn’t that *Justa Turnip* wouldn’t understand the irony of the fire’s ignition if it was splained to him, but that so many Canadians are Justas Stupid.


Bold mine.

I am so stealing that...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

And, this one:



> Off topic and yet at the same time on topic. Apparently Andrew Scheer’s questioning of the Lavascam is due to Climate Change.
> 
> “Trudeau’s office claims Scheer can’t be trusted on SNC-Lavalin because of … climate change?”
> 
> “Scheer will not change his tone, and in fact, has challenged the Prime Minister to sue him, in an effort to use the discovery stage of a trial to interview all the potential witnesses involved in the case.
> 
> *In response, the PMO has published the following bizarre, incoherent statement, pointing out that the Scheer Conservatives just don’t care about climate change or middle class jobs, or roads.*”
> 
> https://www.thepostmillennial.com/t...ted-on-snc-lavalin-because-of-climate-change/


I wanna know what reserve Justa Turnip's getting his dope from... :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

An interesting cross section of news articles past that rang warning bells on Justa Turnip for a select few of us.

If you take a careful look back...

...nobody can say we weren't warned...



> We have to realize that the way of thinking that got us to this place no longer holds. We have to *rethink elements as basic as space and time*, to *go all science fictiony* on you in this sense.”
> 
> The *Justin Theory of Space-Time*... sounds similar to the refrain from that animated character *Buzz Lightyear, from the movie Toy Story*.
> 
> Perhaps at some point he’ll reveal his views on the economy, the Income Tax Act or relations with Taiwan.​


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

So, I read a coupla headlines yesterday about Loblaws receiving $12 million from the Feds for some damn thing or another and Climate Barbie is front & centre for the photo op. I'm thinking to myself, WTF? The bread price fixing company? What have they done to deserve this?

This morning, further searching reveals the reason:

WTF? Catherine McKenna Giving $12 Million Taxpayer Dollars To Loblaws – Who Made $800 Million In Profits & Admitted To Fixing Price Of Bread For Over A Decade



> *The federal government said Monday it is giving Loblaw Companies Ltd. up to $12 million to convert their refrigeration systems in order to help the grocer lower its emissions.*


Bold mine.

Unfukcingbelievable...


----------



## Macfury

Loblaws has also back-ordered a number of Tesla transport vehicles that will never be built or delivered.


----------



## SINC

Yup.


----------



## SINC

*RCMP ‘fesses up 817 days later: Planning for Trudeau’s Bahamas trip began months in advance*

https://globalnews.ca/news/5148607/rcmp-planning-trudeau-bahamas-trip/


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> RCMP ‘fesses up 817 days later: Planning for Trudeau’s Bahamas trip began months in advance


The article (correctly) fingers the RCMP as being lackadaisical in taking 817 days to respond to a 30 day request. That said, with the Queen's horsemen sharing a bed with the Feds, there will be no fallout. It's also why I expect no RCMP investigation into SNC Lavalin.

This quote slays me:



> “This was the first inkling we had of a leader who would not give a straight answer about clear breaches of his ethical obligations. *Many people wrote it off to a lack of experience. We now know it was rooted in a much deeper problem — that Justin Trudeau simply doesn’t believe that the rule of law applies to him.*”


Bold mine.

Rotten to the core, the lot of 'em.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

One more reason.

Legal cannabis 57% more expensive than black market: Statistics Canada



> The purchase price from legal sources was on average 56.8 per cent higher than the purchase price from illegal sources, according to StatCan’s crowdsourced data released on Wednesday.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Martyn Brown: Whither the liar who wasn’t Trudeau?



> Who _was_ that Justin Trudeau in Ottawa on Tuesday (April 10) who put Conservative leader Andrew Scheer on notice that he’d better watch his tongue in holding him accountable for his SNC-Lavalin scandal—or else!
> 
> Heavens, I barely recognized him, sounding ever so much like a man of honesty, principle, integrity and all.
> 
> _Impressive._
> 
> He sure showed his would-be replacement-in-waiting what a person in his position should expect and demand from a person in Scheer’s position, when confronted by hard truths that don’t align with the prime minister’s preferred version of reality.
> 
> The truth and nothing but the truth, I tell’s ya.
> 
> That’s what we should all expect from the likes of Scheer or any politician not in Trudeau’s Liberal caucus.
> 
> So long as it’s not _too_ true, mind you.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Counting those votes!

Trudeau visits gurdwara after government removes reference to Sikh extremism



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the dedication to helping others at the heart of Sikh faith are also "fundamental to who we are as a country."
> 
> Trudeau spoke today at one of the largest Sikh temples in the country, Vancouver's Ross Street Gurdwara, and was set to take part in a massive parade to mark the Sikh holy day of Vaisakhi.
> 
> Attendees at the morning ceremony sat on the floor, many of them in colourful turbans, as speeches by several political leaders were broadcast on two massive screens.
> Trudeau praised the Sikh community for its values of "equality and social justice" and noted its long history in Canada dating back to the turn of the 20th century.
> 
> *His speech came just hours after the federal government agreed to remove a reference to Sikh extremism from a report on terrorism.
> 
> The language was changed late Friday to remove any mention of religion, instead discussing the threat posed by "extremists who support violent means to establish an independent state within India."*


Bold mine.

Nothing quite like good, ol' fashioned Liberal whitewash...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oooooooo, I can hardly wait for this $100 million "investigation" to grace us with its findings...

Finally, report coming from inquiry into vanished indigenous women



> It’s been a long time coming — with demands for millions more in cash along the way, the resignations of key players over dysfunction and numerous requests for deadline extensions — but finally there is a date on the calendar for the release of all its findings and its judgments.


----------



## FeXL

As it currently operates? Couldn't agree more with the headline.

Independent senator’s $15,000 poll finds many Canadians view the Senate as a pointless waste of money



> An independent senator is facing criticism for spending more than $15,000 from her office budget on a poll that found many Canadians view the Senate as ineffective and a waste of money.
> 
> Independent Senator Donna Dasko, a nationally recognized pollster who was appointed to the Senate in June, 2018, commissioned the Nanos Research survey and released the findings this week.


Can the Senate be "fixed"? Yes, I believe it can (article from '07):

An Argument in Favour of a Triple E Senate


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The new Liberal strategy: turn into Conservatives



> Hark! Word comes from Ottawa of the vaunted channel change from SNC-Lavalin!
> 
> With everyone busy rubbernecking the multi-car, highway-closing SNC-Lavalin pile up, Finance Minister Bill Morneau went ahead and tabled his budget implementation bill. *And buried in that 392-page (!) behemoth was a change to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act that would make it harder to claim refugee status in Canada.*
> 
> To take things in order: 1) yes, there was a federal budget this year; 2) yes, it is being jammed through the House via an omnibus bill (which the Liberals promised never to do); 3) yes, omnibus legislation is how Liberals tucked deferred prosecution agreements into the criminal code for SNC last year; and 4) the Liberals are now massive hypocrites.


Bold mine.

All guaranteed to affect a total of 6 (six!) applicants this year alone...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau plays politics with terrorism



> For Justin Trudeau, the problems of terrorism and extremism in Canada appear to be nothing more than partisan political issues.
> 
> I don’t make that claim lightly, nor do I make it without some kind of proof. In fact, I make this claim based on Trudeau’s actions of the last week.
> 
> Trudeau spent most of last week trying to link his Conservative opponents to white supremacist extremism. It’s a ploy he’s been using since the heinous shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand, last month.
> 
> Meanwhile, he pushed through a removal of any reference to Sikh extremism from an intelligence report just before he visited one of the largest Sikh temples in Canada on Saturday.


Anything to distract the news cycle from SNC Lavalin...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on the Loblaws debacle.

Loblaw’s $12 million was the pork barrel spending that pushed us over the edge



> It’s hard to believe nobody saw this immense blowback coming. And maybe they did.
> 
> Maybe Loblaw’s was more than happy to learn the Liberal government would be giving them $12 million of taxpayer dollars to convert their refrigeration systems in 370 of their stores. After all, who doesn’t like free money?
> 
> But maybe they weren’t too happy to learn there was a catch. They couldn’t just take the money and run. They had to stand beside one of the most controversial cabinet ministers on live TV as she rubbed this handout in the public’s face and lectured them on how it’s all about saving the environment.
> 
> *To many in this country, listening to Environment Minister Catherine McKenna talk about climate change initiatives has become akin to hearing nails on a chalkboard.* It immediately repulses a certain segment of society, who coil away at the increasingly manic alarms constantly sounds over imminent environmental doom and gloom.


Bold mine.

There's an understatement.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Keep talkin, Justa Turnip...

Trudeau's his own worst enemy in Lavscam



> Some of the most damaging attacks on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s credibility in the Lavscam scandal have come from an unusual source.
> 
> They’ve come from Trudeau.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Only a Turnip...

‘Absolutely horrible’: Cannabis industry expectations sliding after slow start to legal era



> Soaring expectations for Canada’s cannabis industry are being tempered in some quarters after licensed producers reported what for the most part were underwhelming financial results in the first post-legalization period.


More:



> “Sales and revenues have been absolutely horrible post-legalization,” Jason Zandberg, a special situations analyst at PI Financial, told the Financial Post in a recent interview. “Clearly the market is overpriced and many of these companies have gotten ahead of themselves in valuations.”
> 
> *According to data from Statistics Canada, just $307 million of legal weed has been sold in the last three months of 2018 for both adult-use and medical consumption post-legalization, versus $1.17 billion in sales from the black market.* Legal sales to date are far below many pre-legalization forecasts, including a widely-cited report from Deloitte released in mid-2018 that predicted recreational sales alone could generate up to $4.34 billion in 2019.


Less than _a third_ of illegal sales.


----------



## FeXL

Smell the "professional journalism"... 



> Citypulse News in Toronto decides not to identify armed drug dealers, because, well... I can only speculate...
> 
> Investigators say that along with the guns and ammunition, they also found large quantities of cocaine and fentanyl. They say two 28-year-old men -- one from Toronto and the other from London -- are facing a combined total of 45 charges.​
> Well, we wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feelings... right?


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Only a Turnip...
> 
> ‘Absolutely horrible’: Cannabis industry expectations sliding after slow start to legal era
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *According to data from Statistics Canada, just $307 million of legal weed has been sold in the last three months of 2018 for both adult-use and medical consumption post-legalization, versus $1.17 billion in sales from the black market.* Legal sales to date are far below many pre-legalization forecasts, including a widely-cited report from Deloitte released in mid-2018 that predicted recreational sales alone could generate up to $4.34 billion in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> Less than _a third_ of illegal sales.
Click to expand...

Got me to thinking how do we know there were $1.17Billion in black market sales. Notice it is a hard figure, not even qualified with the word 'estimated'. Now if it was opium or cocaine, it is fairly common knowledge that the CIA finances its agenda via opium and cocaine sales, so I would infer that perhaps the CIA had provided the figure. 

Is it possible that number came from the RCMP, and the reason they know is because they have a similar symbiotic method of supplementing their funding?

Just some random thoughts from the resident skeptic.


----------



## Macfury

Man, that's recreational AND medical put together.


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> Only a Turnip...
> 
> ‘Absolutely horrible’: Cannabis industry expectations sliding after slow start to legal era
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Less than _a third_ of illegal sales.



I know in Ontario it has been a debacle. Limited licenses for some reason, the online ordering was a joke and had major issues. If you are going to legalize they should have just opened it up and collected taxes, nothing else. Let the private sector create the market and take care of everything. Not sure why our government needs to have its fingers in everything to protect us innocent sheep who are incapable of making our own choices.

I am not surprised they have not taken any real business away from the black market. You have a guy who delivers, you pay cash and get it right away opposed to ordering online, waiting a few days or a week to get your pot. I do not smoke, but believe the freedom for people to do this if they want. If I was going to smoke I would not be ordering online when I am sure I could find a source and have it in an hour.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> I know in Ontario it has been a debacle. Limited licenses for some reason, the online ordering was a joke and had major issues. If you are going to legalize they should have just opened it up and collected taxes, nothing else. Let the private sector create the market and take care of everything. Not sure why our government needs to have its fingers in everything to protect us innocent sheep who are incapable of making our own choices.
> 
> I am not surprised they have not taken any real business away from the black market. You have a guy who delivers, you pay cash and get it right away opposed to ordering online, waiting a few days or a week to get your pot. I do not smoke, but believe the freedom for people to do this if they want. If I was going to smoke I would not be ordering online when I am sure I could find a source and have it in an hour.


Not mentioned is that ordering online probably puts your name into a database to which US customs has direct access, and could use to deny one entry into the US. Since paranoia and pot consumption are sometimes related I am pretty sure many potheads would be aware of that possibility.


----------



## SINC

Isn't the obvious lesson to be learned here is that government should never be involved in a business, period?


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> Not sure why our government needs to have its fingers in everything to protect us innocent sheep who are incapable of making our own choices.


They're after the tax revenue.



wonderings said:


> I am not surprised they have not taken any real business away from the black market.


Had an interesting conversation with one of my nieces on the weekend. She smokes & so does pretty much all of her social circle. Not one of them buy gov't brand.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Not mentioned is that ordering online probably puts your name into a database...


Which, if I did smoke, would be the number one reason for me not to buy TruDope.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Isn't the obvious lesson to be learned here is that government should never be involved in a business, period?


Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes!

Every time I hear about yet one more gov't business failure I'm reminded of Milton Friedman's quote:

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Not mentioned is that ordering online probably puts your name into a database to which US customs has direct access, and could use to deny one entry into the US. Since paranoia and pot consumption are sometimes related I am pretty sure many potheads would be aware of that possibility.


Yes, I would not recommend anyone buy online or with a credit card anywhere. 

I just did my nexus interview to get my nexus card and I had heard that sometimes they ask if you have ever done drugs. It can be an immediate denial on the spot if you answer yes. I was not asked the question but the idea of a pot purchase coming up in their search on me was something I did think about. 

I agree as well with the statement that the government should not be in business. The government mindset is completely different from that of a business. Goes from the top down to government employees. I am always reminded when teachers go on strike for things like job security. Really? Can I get some job security as well in my small family business? They burn OUR money with zero care.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> Not sure why our government needs to have its fingers in everything to protect us innocent sheep who are incapable of making our own choices.


In Great Britain, the government is now selling licenses to view Internet porn, guaranteeing that you are above the legal age to view it. Think about it. You have to register with the government as a porn consumer:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/13/...ass-age-verification-digital-economy-act-2017


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> In Great Britain, the government is now selling licenses to view Internet porn, guaranteeing that you are above the legal age to view it. Think about it. You have to register with the government as a porn consumer:
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/13/...ass-age-verification-digital-economy-act-2017


The willingness of people to give up their freedoms is baffling. Once you give up your freedoms up to the government it is almost impossible for you to ever get them back. 

Getting close to needing to adjust Orwells classic title to 2019 instead of 1984.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

'Cause that's all he's got?

Trudeau's border move is smoke and mirrors



> I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that Justin Trudeau’s one and only move to deal with the influx of asylum seekers crossing the border is nothing but a political gesture.
> 
> This after all is the same PM that wants to use the justice system for political reasons in the case of SNC-Lavalin. He’s also the same PM that just forced Public Safety to alter a terrorism report on threats to Canada to appease certain factions of the Sikh vote in Canada, listening to political pressure rather than our intelligence agencies.
> 
> So is it really shocking that Trudeau’s move to deal with the border issue is nothing but smoke and mirrors?


I'll just consider that a rhetorical question.


----------



## FeXL

Further on Justa Turnip's smoke & mirrors.

In a twist, Canada asks U.S. for help cracking down on migrants at its southern border



> There’s no wall or checkpoint or regular guard at the end of Roxham Road, just a footpath to the border. In recent years, this trail has been the busiest unauthorized crossing into Canada, a well-known back door for tens of thousands of people seeking asylum in a country that projects itself as a haven for refugees.
> 
> Canada has largely tolerated their arrival. But with an increasingly close election on the horizon, the Liberal government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau - a global figure of welcome for refugees - is signaling plans to crack down. And they're asking the United States to help.
> 
> The irony is not lost on those who track immigration: The Trudeau government wants the United States to help tighten enforcement on Canada's southern border, just as the Trump administration is pressing Mexico to tighten enforcement on the U.S. Southern border.


h/t AoS, who noted:



> So the little Canadian pussy needs our help?


:lmao::lmao::lmao::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## SINC

*NP View: Kenney must win a war, or Canada risks losing its peace*



> On Tuesday, Alberta voters chose Jason Kenney to be their next premier. Despite polls showing a tighter race, the final result was, in fact, a lopsided victory for the United Conservative Party that Kenney leads. With an outright majority of the popular vote, the party won almost three-quarters of the seats in the Alberta legislature. The NDP, led by outgoing premier Rachel Notley, will form the opposition. No other party elected a single member.
> 
> The judgment of Alberta's voters could not be much clearer
> 
> In other words, this wasn’t just Kenney’s victory, it was a crushing defeat of Notley’s NDP. The judgment of Alberta’s voters could not be much clearer. Whatever a mandate is worth, Kenney certainly has it. (Or should we call it social licence?) And he more than earned it after personally making it his tireless mission to reunite Alberta’s splintered conservatives, and lead a new party promising to unapologetically stand up for Alberta’s economic interests against its many antagonists. That means finally abandoning Notley’s failed strategy of hoping that those dead-set on land locking Alberta’s oil and gas might ever be persuaded to compromise if only Alberta keeps caving to their never-ending demands to punish the province’s key industry. For all of that, Kenney deserves our congratulations and best wishes.
> 
> The most pressing issue now is confronting Alberta’s entirely reasonable and correct concerns about its place in the Canadian federation. Alberta has unquestionably been getting a very raw deal. The federal government can barely conceal its ambivalence about Alberta’s oilpatch, being far more concerned about the unlikely prospect of losing a few thousand SNC-Lavalin jobs in Quebec than more than 100,000 lost jobs in Alberta’s energy sector, the Canadian economy’s most vital single engine. It is outrageous that other Canadian provinces continue to impose so-called environmental restrictions on exports of Alberta’s oil, while importing massive quantities of oil from abroad. This is especially so considering that Alberta workers have for decades been subsidizing higher standards of living in provinces that today actively work to harm the standard of living for Albertans.


More at the link.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/np...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1555626314


----------



## SINC

*BREAKING: Privacy Commissioner To Investigate Trudeau Government Supreme Court Leaks*

This comes just days after federal judge orders investigation into Trudeau’s Aga Khan island trip to be reopened.



> Justin Trudeau is facing yet another investigation.
> 
> Following a request from the Conservatives, the Privacy Commissioner has confirmed that he is opening an investigation into leaks of discussions around a possible Supreme Court pick.
> 
> The leak was related to the SNC-Lavalin PMO Scandal, as Trudeau loyalists tried to discredit Jody Wilson-Raybould by making up slanderous lies about highly respected Manitoba Chief Justice Glenn Joyal.
> 
> Trudeau’s cronies went so far into the dirt that they ended up claiming that Joyal was ‘rejected’ by Trudeau as a Supreme Court pick, when the reality is that Joyal withdrew himself from consideration because his wife battling cancer.


More at the link.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...igate-trudeau-government-supreme-court-leaks/


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> *BREAKING: Privacy Commissioner To Investigate Trudeau Government Supreme Court Leaks*
> 
> This comes just days after federal judge orders investigation into Trudeau’s Aga Khan island trip to be reopened.
> 
> More at the link.
> 
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...igate-trudeau-government-supreme-court-leaks/


Despicable even by current political (non)standards


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> BREAKING: Privacy Commissioner To Investigate Trudeau Government Supreme Court Leaks


Few questions:

1) Is the PC an office with any degree of impartiality?
2) Is the PC himself trustworthy to do his job?
3) If Justa Turnip is found in the wrong, what can the PC do?
4) Or is this going to be another TGF like the Ethics Commissioner report & penalty back in 2017?


----------



## SINC

*62% of Canadians will not consider voting for the Federal Liberals*

https://www.campaignresearch.ca/sin...-not-consider-voting-for-the-Federal-Liberals


----------



## SINC

Looks to me like Turdeau has worn out his brand since he was elected in 2015.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Not bloody likely...

Trudeau’s Carbon Tax: Bend Over and Take It!

Commentary gold:



> How will this carbon tax produce it’s advertised result of lowering carbon emissions?
> Can anyone actually explain HOW this tax will produce it’s advertised effect in an economic real world?
> That’s a serious question.
> Am I missing something?
> 
> For instance when this carbon tax increases the costs to the Evraz pipe mill in Regina won’t they just lose contracts to pipe mills in China where there is no carbon tax and where 70% of their electricity used to produce that steel pipe is produced by coal?
> We’ll ship our scrap steel over to China in Bunker C burning ships then produce the pipe in coal powered pipe mills in China then ship the finished pipe back to North America in ships again.
> How does that reduce overall CO2 emissions and real pollution?
> Our clean carbon taxed pipe mill sits idle while the production is moved in fossil fuel burning freighters to the coal powered steel mills in China.
> 
> Liberals like to urge everyone to buy their food locally to save the planet from unnecessary fossil fuel use in shipping food in from far away.
> ‘Locovores’ is what they call it. So they must understand the concept that shipping uses fuel.
> We’re supposed to buy our tomatoes from the guy on the corner, but we’ll save the planet by importing our steel from China.


And:



> Stan,
> 
> *Your comments make total sense. Unfortunately Turdeau practices snowboard economics.*
> 
> Turdeau needs money. So Team Turdeau implements a carbon tax. To make it go they say, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, that 90% of Canadians will get more money back than they pay. If that doesn’t make sense regarding reducing emissions – you are correct.
> 
> However, what Team Turdeau doesn’t tell you:
> a) they will slowly reduce the number of people who get rebates.
> b) they will slowly cut the amount of the rebate.
> c) they will over time increase the carbon tax. Government figures say it will need to reach $300/tonne to see any significant reduction in CO2.
> 
> Of course once our CO2 goes down, by shifting all manufacturing out of the country, global CO2 emissions will actually increase! As you pointed out.
> 
> Now the fastest, easiest way to reduce Canada’s CO2 emissions is for Alberta to leave Canada. 270 Mtonnes goes with Alberta, and Justin can look virtuous. Of course BC and Ontario tax payers will then have to make up the equalization money to Quebec.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I fail to see the problem.

Liberal Party in freefall with Trudeau at helm



> With Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in freefall in the polls, provinces after provinces voting in right wing governments and Canada alienated by world powers, the Liberal Party’s future is not looking rosy.
> 
> Add to all of that the departure of former clerk of the privy council Michael Wernick (not a great loss) and Trudeau’s longtime pal principal secretary Gerald Butts (separated at birth), as well as two of his most performing ministers, over LavScam and it’s pretty dark in Liberal corners.


Sooooouuuuuuiiiieeeee!!!

How about it, Pig? How's things look on MotherCorpse's latest poll?


----------



## FeXL

Interesting. Wonder if the Greens & Lieberals are going to team together?

Prince Edward Island election results: voters elect PC minority



> Voters in P.E.I. have shed their century-old embrace of the Island’s two-party system, electing a Tory minority government and handing the upstart Green party official Opposition status for the first time.
> 
> With all polls reporting Tuesday, the Tories won 12 seats, the Greens held nine, and the incumbent Liberals, led by Premier Wade MacLauchlan, had won five.


----------



## SINC

An interesting read.

*The rise of the Republic of the Northwest*

David J. Bercuson and Barry Cooper imagine a future where western territories have split from Canada to escape the bureaucratic despotism of Ottawa

David J. Bercuson and Barry Cooper are professors of history and political science respectively at the University of Calgary. Several years ago they wrote Deconfederation: Canada without Quebec.



> The date is March 2039, 20 years from now. The Republic of the Northwest is celebrating its 17th anniversary as an independent state. Today it consists of territories that once belonged to Northern Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, parts of British Columbia and the Canadian Arctic north of 60. The republic had its beginnings when the premier of Alberta, in March 2020, called a provincial referendum on amending section 36 (2) of the Constitution Act (1982) dealing with equalization payments, and resolving a range of other Alberta-Canada disagreements ranging from provincial policing to taxation.
> 
> Alberta’s position was based on the unsuccessful “firewall” proposals of 20 years earlier. Negotiations failed and Alberta called a second referendum held in March 2021, as the government had promised to do. This time, along with Saskatchewan, we voted to leave Canada. A clear majority (84 per cent) of both former provinces on a clear question (‘Do you wish independence from Canada?’) voted to leave.
> 
> The government of Manitoba did the same a few weeks later, voting 78 per cent to join its western neighbours. Under the terms of the 1988 Quebec Secession Reference, Canada was required to negotiate.


More at the link.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-rise-of-the-republic-of-the-northwest/


----------



## SINC

*Rex Murphy: The election of Jason Kenney – and defeat of Rachel Notley’s NDP – is the latest in series of reversals for Justin Trudeau’s climate plan*



> The election of Jason Kenney, and the vigorous majority afforded him by the electors of Alberta, could have confounded no one outside the miasmic cults of Greenpeace and Sierra Club, or the bible-bashers of the penitential church of global warming.
> 
> In other terms, to anyone sentient, the result was entirely predictable and expected. You cannot lock up the central resources of an entire province – during a period of collapse in world prices – and not anticipate the citizens of that province to look for a fresh strong change of leadership.
> 
> This is not to say Ms. Notley was primarily responsible for Alberta’s plight, but it is to say that having partially interlocked herself with the Trudeau government’s crusade against what they call “carbon emissions,” but which even high school students know as carbon dioxide, an entirely different substance. But then clamorous climate-changers are very careless about words and things.
> 
> If you wanted water, you wouldn’t ask for a glass of hydrogen; but in the global warming game if it helps to call CO2 carbon, or CO2 “pollution,” why then have at it.
> 
> Catherine McKenna’s wretched line – “we’re putting a price on pollution” – her translation for a tax, not a price, on carbon dioxide, is both a crass and crude distortion. Remodeling the language to suit your ideological purposes should be a signal that the case for the great “climate plan” of the Liberals is not – even to them – as strong as they tell us. But, I mildly digress.
> 
> Mildly, because the attitude behind verbal manipulation underwrites the overall case that we – meaning Canadians – “have to reduce our carbon emissions” though where this imperative comes from is never much questioned. On ever-so-virtuous climate policy, the general media is comfortably and unwontedly uninquisitive.
> 
> Why, it should be asked, have we got to reduce our emissions? If Canada were to cut a fraction of a fraction of the world’s supply of CO2 – which is all the Liberal plan will do – what difference would it make? What change in global temperature? What effect on the “rising of the oceans”? And why are Canadians supposed to accept bending the national economy and ticking off everyone who has to drive to work, or deploy a tractor…for null effect?
> 
> Is it obedience to the Parisian conclave everyone signed onto voluntarily, but without the force of penalty or law? The hallowed Paris commitments wearisomely invoked as if they represented some solemn oath of the deepest honour? But what are they really, and what are they worth?
> 
> Even those believers have long since indicated that living up to those commitments will “not be enough” to stop (their fervid estimate) of climate Armageddon. Hours after the “world-saving” signing of the Paris agreements, their very proponents insisted they were not sufficient.
> 
> So keeping to those commitments is at best a negligible task. Why then is Canada, or rather the current government, so invested to being at the front of a crusade which has failure written into its first principles?
> 
> The staggering economy to the south of us abandoned Paris, and now leads the world in oil and gas production and – miraculously – has actually lowered its so-called carbon emissions? They abandoned Paris, expanded the energy industry and lowered emissions. Guess which country with ten provinces and three territories, endorses Paris, has climate taxes…and has raised its emissions?
> 
> Second, considering that what Canada adds to the putative peril of the planet is itself a meagre fraction, and that even shutting down the full industrial base of the entire country would not shake the global thermometer in any measurable way…why are we tied to this pseudo-treaty?
> 
> I put it this way: we don’t significantly contribute to the crisis. So why is our Liberal leadership so wound up to perform a useless task, to the impediment of the Canadian economy and to the lethal consequences it visits and has visited upon our western provinces’ economies? And most particularly, why is Alberta and the oilsands been the furious focus of all efforts to “combat climate change?”
> 
> Alberta has been frozen out of realizing the value of its resources, blocked by British Columbia and Ottawa on pipelines, and sacrificed to virtue-signaling on climate.
> 
> So was there any wonder that a pro-oil party won?
> 
> Kenney’s election is the major challenge to the prevailing assumptions of federal global warming philosophy. Because the province he now leads has borne its most concentrated negative effects, and because equally its calls from some balance or remedy has been steadfastly ignored.
> 
> Further, a Kenney government has given notice that the soft thinking on carbon emissions and our “responsibilities” for “fighting climate change” is going to be challenged. Climate change is not, never has been, just the “science.” It has a vast ideological dimension, rarely discussed, certainly rarely questioned because saving the planet has acquired something of the aura of a sacred dogma. Politicians who in their timid hearts really do not wish to sign on to the cause fear the backlash if they too.
> 
> That atmosphere is about to change.
> 
> In early days of the Trudeau administration everyone was a boy scout on this issue. It got easy affirmation from at least nine provinces, with Brad Wall’s government a notable courageous standout.
> 
> The political landscape has changed significantly. Conservative premiers with provinces to run not only do not see environmentalist ambitions as part of their mandate, but to the contrary, see them as a hindrance to their economic and social agendas.
> 
> Mr. Trudeau’s signature policy push has more political resistance these days, faces real court challenges, and will be a real burden in the election he is shortly to face.
> 
> November won’t be won on phantom polar bears or walruses posing for bishop David Attenborough. A new realism on the actual costs of posturing for the environmentalist agenda, premiers who aren’t embarrassed to advocate for jobs and industry, and an abandonment of the apologetics over oil and gas will make the campaign to come a nervous one for those who think a tax on energy is a winning proposal.
> 
> That, and of course, the signals already coming out of a refreshed Alberta.
> 
> _A former Rhodes Scholar, Murphy built a reputation as a quick-witted broadcaster and reporter in his native Newfoundland, and later throughout Canada on CBC’s The National and host of CBC Radio’s Cross Country Checkup._


https://theorca.ca/resident-pod/rex...limate-change-politics/#.XMJAkrD-xXh.facebook


----------



## SINC

*#LAVSCAM #LAWSCAM #LIBSCAM: THANKS FOR YOUR DONATION*



> Jody Wilson-Raybould worked to clean up the legal system. Justin Trudeau and his PMO cabal work to dirty it.
> 
> Have these guys learned nothing from Lavscam? Have they not considered the implications of dragging our system of justice through the muck? Do any of them understand why the law needs to above grubby, secretive partisan deal-making?
> 
> Apparently not. Check out this blockbuster in the Globe and Mail:
> 
> The Prime Minister’s Office is using a private party database called Liberalist in its background checks on candidates for judicial appointments, a tool that allows them to see whether would-be judges have supported the Liberal Party in recent years, records show.
> 
> The Liberal Party designed the database to be used for partisan purposes, such as helping Liberal candidates track and reach their supporters during election campaigns.
> 
> However, confidential documents obtained by The Globe and Mail show the PMO’s appointments branch is also using it to look into the partisan background of applicants for judicial positions. The documents, which were provided by a source, were produced by the PMO and show the results of database checks on judicial applicants. Liberalist is the only one of the databases that is not accessible to the public.
> 
> As justice minister, Jody Wilson-Raybould modified the process under which the federal government appoints judges to superior and federal courts in 2016, promising to increase the “openness, transparency, accountability and diversity of Canada’s judiciary.” In particular, the reforms gave greater independence to the seven-member judicial advisory committees (JAC) that evaluate the candidates for appointments.
> 
> However, sources said the process still includes a role for the PMO in vetting candidates further. The records show the PMO used Liberalist to evaluate candidates who had gone through the JAC process.
> 
> Of the donations made by these judges, $321,650.58, or 90.9 per cent of the total amount, was directed to the Liberal Party.


#LavScam #LawScam #LibScam: thanks for your donation : Warren Kinsella


----------



## SINC

Yup, no argument here.


----------



## SINC

Nor here when you consider stupidity.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> This video says it all:
> 
> A man of action (Canadian volunteer)
> 
> VS.
> 
> A #FakeFeminist of all talk and phot-ops (Trudeau)
> 
> This representative of Trudeau’s last 3 years — nothing done all talk while upsetting Canadians at real work. pic.twitter.com/YGMZfgKvQK
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) April 27, 2019


Commentary gold.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What a colossal embarrassment... 

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> They all look alike to him.


From the comments:



> Has Justin been drinking?
> 
> Or smoking?
> 
> Nope. All that “work” yesterday filling sandbags for 15 minutes was so exhausting that he didn’t have time to memorize his few lines.


----------



## SINC

Oh my, where is FUXL'd up when ya need him?

Souiiieee!


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Oh my, where is FUXL'd up when ya need him?
> 
> Souiiieee!


He's out with the Prime Turnip filling sand bags for 15 mins & getting his photo taken...


----------



## FeXL

NAZIS!!! Nazis, everywhere!!!

“The Globe and Mail has obtained a trove of 150,000 messages ” …



> In an effort to smear Conservatives.
> 
> …the messages were given to The Globe and Mail by Montreal-based anti-fascists​
> I won’t bother quoting more of it. Simply pathetic.


Ah, the old Grope & Flail...

Commentary gold.


----------



## 18m2

*Trudeau referred to Japan TWICE as China*

What an embarrassment

What an idiot.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av50834604/?redirectFrom=h5


----------



## eMacMan

18m2 said:


> What an embarrassment
> 
> What an idiot.
> 
> https://www.bilibili.com/video/av50834604/?redirectFrom=h5



This is more than a minor blunder. The Japanese and Chinese have a mutual hatred and distrust that goes back a very long way. This blunder is guaranteed to offend both.


----------



## SINC

Yep, is there any doubt in anyone's mind that Turdeau is a national embarrassment?


----------



## SINC

Good grief, SNC Lavalin is one very corrupt company. 

Secret list of SNC employees, execs behind illegal donations to federal Liberal Party revealed

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snc-lavalin-liberal-donors-list-canada-elections-1.5114537


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Good grief, SNC Lavalin is one very corrupt company.
> 
> Secret list of SNC employees, execs behind illegal donations to federal Liberal Party revealed


MotherCorpse is gonna get le-tters...


----------



## eMacMan

A cross post from the American thread. Once again a curse on the Harpoon and the Trudope for lacking the balls to just say no.
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••


CubaMark said:


> _Nothing to hide... nope. Nothing at all...._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Trump Sues Two Banks To Block Federal Investigation*Donald Trump has repreatedly refused to hand over the documentation needed to investigate his financial dealings despite receiving federal subpoenas.
> 
> U.S. President Donald Trump, along with three of his children and seven of his companies, filed a federal lawsuit on Monday, April 29, against Deutsche Bank and Capital One Financial Corp in an attemp to block the banks from complying with federal subpoenas investigating his financial dealings.
> 
> (Telesur)​


What's interesting here is that Trump has done nothing to end FATCA. For any of those accounts which are international, Congress probably does not need a subpoena to see them.

Thanks to FATCA every American citizen, and lots of folks who are not American, must file a F(u)BAR and possibly 8938s and/or 5320s on all of their accounts outside of the USA. Their banks must also file FinCEN-114s (FuBARS) on those accounts. The FinCEN aka F(u)BAR reports contain every bit of information a hacker would need to access and deplete those accounts. They are stored in a massive database with the Criminal Enforcement Network of the IRS along with information on suspected drug dealers and money launderers. According to the privacy statement, pretty much any department head of any agency with a three letter acronym has access to that data. Not only that but the RCMP, CSIS, Interpol and just about any other non-US police force can also access that data.

If Carrot Top is that concerned about financial privacy let him start with an executive order abolishing FATCA. Millions of Americans living outside of the US would be incredibly grateful as would their wives, children, business partners.....


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

“Why Should I Sell Your Canola?”



> Well, this is good news! The government says you can borrow more money.
> 
> The federal government is poised to announce an expansion of an agricultural loan guarantee program in response to the canola market crisis. https://t.co/MdGZWIH2qn @CBCKatie
> 
> — CBC News (@CBCNews) May 1, 2019​
> It’s a “scientific-based disagreement”, according to Trudeau. So, here’s some advice for Canadian farmers — you might change the name of your crop to “Bombardier”.


----------



## FeXL

Only the gov't could lose money selling pot.

Cannabis NB Loses $11.7 Million In First Fiscal Year



> New Brunswick's Crown-owned cannabis retailer is recording a big financial loss in its first year in operation.
> 
> Unaudited year-end results released Tuesday show Cannabis NB lost $11.7 million.
> 
> The agency says sales of legal cannabis for the fourth quarter were $9.7 million, resulting in a year-end total of $18.6 million.
> 
> *General manager Lara Wood says the government knew there would be challenges but is confident objectives including reducing the illicit market and creating public awareness are being met.*


Uh-huh...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> Reuters: Canada farm minister informed that China has blocked two Canadian pork exporters.
> 
> I guess they can look forward to a loan, too.


Yeppers.

This comment nails it:



> Huawei should become NoWay.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Sask. gov’t loses carbon tax challenge



> Saskatchewan’s Court of Appeal has denied the provincial government’s challenge on the federal government’s carbon tax.
> 
> In a decision released Friday in Regina, the judges voted 3-2 to reject the Sask. Party’s argument that the federal government didn’t have the constitutional power to collect the carbon tax in Saskatchewan starting April 1.
> 
> In the majority decision, Chief Justice Robert G. Richards wrote that the federal government has the constitutional power to establish a price for greenhouse gas emissions — something that the province disputed in its argument.
> 
> “The pith and substance of the Act is about establishing minimum national standards of price stringency for GHG emissions,” wrote Richards, whose decision was concurred with by justices Gergina Jackson and Lian Schwann. “Parliament has jurisdiction over this subject matter by virtue of the national concern branch of (peace, order and good government).”


On to the SCOC.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Sask. gov’t loses carbon tax challenge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On to the SCOC.




So much for the wisdom of fighting the carbon tax at a constitutional level. Foolish Kenney was hoping for a Saskatchewan win.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> So much for the wisdom of fighting the carbon tax at a constitutional level. Foolish Kenney’s was hoping for a Saskatchewan win.


Man, with grammar like that you might want to ask a teacher to review your posts.

Oh, wait . . .


----------



## Macfury

Foolish Notley was hoping for a win as well.



Freddie_Biff said:


> So much for the wisdom of fighting the carbon tax at a constitutional level. Foolish Kenney’s was hoping for a Saskatchewan win.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Foolish Notley was hoping for a win as well.




Uh, no. Notley was smart enough to know that challenging the federal carbon tax would fail, so a carbon tax made in Alberta would provide maximum benefit to Albertans. It was the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Man, with grammar like that you might want to ask a teacher to review your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, wait . . .




That’s a spelling error, not a grammatical one. I’m not surprised that you can’t tell the difference.


----------



## Macfury

It was the greater of two evils.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Uh, no. Notley was smart enough to know that challenging the federal carbon tax would fail, so a carbon tax made in Alberta would provide maximum benefit to Albertans. It was the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It was the greater of two evils.




See now that’s not even an argument. It’s just contradiction.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> That’s a spelling error, not a grammatical one. I’m not surprised that you can’t tell the difference.


So according to you, 'Kenney's' was spelled incorrectly? :lmao:

Man, you really do need a teacher's assistance.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> So according to you, 'Kenney's' was spelled incorrectly? :lmao:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, you really do need a teacher's assistance.




An error in punctuation or a typo is a spelling mistake, not a grammatical one. Looks like you who needs a teacher’s assistance.


----------



## Macfury

More costly to Alberta, much earlier than the federal tax. and did not result in "social license" to build a pipeline. Triple failure.



Freddie_Biff said:


> See now that’s not even an argument. It’s just contradiction.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> An error in punctuation or a typo is a spelling mistake, not a grammatical one. Looks like you who needs a teacher’s assistance.


Your grammar is reminiscent of your math. Fractured.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Your grammar is reminiscent of your math. Fractured.




Clearly you have no idea what “grammatical” means. And you whine about it as much as you whine about the weather.


----------



## SINC

Try your best not to gag as you watch the video that is the heart of this story. It is repugnant that a minister in Turdeau's cabinet calls Americans dumb and extolls the virtues of Islam. Bloody sickening and by itself reason enough to rid ourselves of the Liberal government before it completely destroys Canada.

*WATCH: Trade minister Chrystia Freeland, comedian Bill Maher debate refugees, diversity*



> International Trade Minister Chrystia Freeland fiercely defended her staunch position supporting diversity during a late-night debate on Real Time with Bill Maher Friday night.
> 
> Comedian and commentator Bill Maher started the segment off with the statistic that 56 per cent of Americans believe the Syrian refugees have values that are at odds with their values.
> 
> He went on to quote U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron who said “too often we have lacked the confidence to enforce our values for fears of causing offence.”
> 
> “This idea, that somehow we do share values, that all religions are alike is bull****,” Maher said.
> 
> But Freeland was quick to step in and disagree.


Much more at the Global News link.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2354512/...LePNLmOeHt-xr-JsjNliI1zYH2912MgqTx51pNHDIOK7w


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Gerald Butts, Trudeau’s Ex-Adviser, Opens Up On SNC-Lavalin Affair, Politics, And What's Next



> Butts resigned from his job as Trudeau's principal secretary in February after he felt the former attorney general of Canada, Jody Wilson-Raybould, had accused him of putting pressure on her to consider a deferred prosecution agreement for SNC-Lavalin, a large Quebec-based engineering firm.
> 
> *He vehemently denies that he or anyone in Trudeau's office did anything improper. "I still believe that nothing happened here other than the normal operations of government."*


Bold mine.

I agree entirely.

The normal operartions of a totalitarian Prog gov't...


----------



## FeXL

And, from the Department of the Blindingly Obvious...

Canada’s China problem more about politics than food: professor



> Although Canadian officials are assuring people in this country that a suspension of pork export permits to China is a temporary administrative issue, one academic who specializes in food distribution says it’s all about politics.
> 
> Dalhousie University’s Dr. Sylvain Charlebois – also known as ‘The Food Professor’ – told 680 CJOB Friday that the pork situation is just another part of a larger diplomatic rift between the two countries that has been ongoing for months.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I fail to see the problem.

Trudeau's best poll numbers still have him losing the fall election



> A poll of 1,471 adult Canadians conducted on April 30 and May 1 found 35% would back the Conservatives while 31% would back the Liberals.
> 
> The NDP under leader Jagmeet Singh were in a distant third place with 17% support.
> 
> Believe it or not, those are good numbers for Trudeau these days.
> 
> He’s been dealing with some polls, like Leger, putting him at 27% support to Scheer’s 40%, and Angus Reid putting the Conservatives at 38% to the Liberals 25%.


Related:

A new 338Canada projection has the Tories safely in majority territory



> Case in point: polls in the past month alone have ranged from 13 point CPC leads (Angus Reid, Léger) to a 4 point LPC lead (Innovative Research), with other polling firms somewhere in the middle (namely: Ipsos, Nanos and Campaign Research). Obviously, not all these polls can be correct in the same time frame, but it’s by taking them all together and careful weighing the regional breakdowns that we can hope to reduce the noise and see the actual data.


Related, too:

SNC-Lavalin affair having an effect on voter intentions, poll finds



> The Liberal government is bleeding progressive voters’ support in the wake of the SNC-Lavalin scandal, new poll results from Forum Research suggest.
> 
> Just over half of respondents to an April 23 poll said the SNC-Lavalin saga will have an impact their decision at the ballot box, according to data shared by Forum with the Star.
> 
> Of those voters, 25 per cent said they’re more likely to vote NDP (14 per cent) or for the Green Party candidate in their ridings (11 per cent), suggesting progressive voters are searching for an alternative to the Liberals.


SOOOOUUUUIIIEEEE!!!


----------



## FeXL

Brace yourselves — the Mark Norman trial is about to overtake Lavscam



> When Liberal MP Andrew Leslie announced on Wednesday that he wasn’t running for re-election, there was considerable speculation about his motivations.
> 
> Was the retired lieutenant-general leaving politics after only one term because he no longer cared for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s agenda?
> 
> Or was the man, previously touted as a star candidate, frustrated to have been left out of cabinet while those with fewer accomplishments under their belts leapfrogged over him?
> 
> *Or, maybe, the 61-year-old who represents a riding in the east of Ottawa is in fact leaving because of news that just broke concerning a far more scandalous matter.*


Bold mine.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Brace yourselves — the Mark Norman trial is about to overtake Lavscam
> 
> Bold mine.


The salient quote:


> Norman’s defence team, headed up by Marie Henein, is now arguing that the charge against Norman was politically motivated because of how the leak caused trouble for the PM.
> 
> 
> Think about what that claim actually says: The PMO worked behind the scenes to put the head of the Navy behind bars because he inconvenienced Trudeau.


----------



## FeXL

Enemy No. 1 for Jason Kenney is not just Justin Trudeau



> There were very testy times on Parliament Hill last week, a foreboding that the October election will be nastier than a back-alley boot fight outside the sketchiest and roughest bar in town.
> 
> Cordiality and politeness will go down the tubes very early in the game. Attack ads will be historic for their viciousness, the heat of the phraseology, and for their relentless pursuit of the perfect kill shot.
> 
> Election 2019, if the overseers are wise, will carry a viewer discretion warning, and at least a 14A rating strongly suggesting adult accompaniment.
> 
> It’s building up to be that ugly.


More:



> Environment Minister Catherine McKenna certainly let everyone know where she stood with Kenney, because he had already ticked her off in the morning by appearing before the Senate committee hearing on energy and totally savaging one of McKenna’s pet projects, Bill C-69


Good. I love the smell of p!$$ed off Prog in the morning...


----------



## FeXL

Further from RestoreCSA

PEO Whitewash



> So, we have companies bankrupted from CSA’s sales of counterfeit certifications and their subsequent dereliction of responsibility to ensure compliance with minimum requirements of safety law. We have CSA taking a lot of money from industry for what CSA tells them are genuine certifications, and customers like MCM paying a lot of money for products they’re told are safe and legal. We have towns like Asquith barring use of units bearing CSA’s counterfeited marks and real estate boards issuing Province-wide public warnings against CSA certified importations. Purchasers can’t use the products they paid for, can’t install them or re-export them elsewhere, can’t sue CSA for damages due to their immunities from litigation, and can’t seek a refund from the manufacturer because unknowingly buying CSA’s faked certifications put the manufacturers out of business too.


I jes luvs me some good, ol' fashioned gov't bureaucracy...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Good ol' Porno Willie...

Oh, Little Potato!



> No small potatoes. pic.twitter.com/3dKAczJu9n
> 
> — Pierre Poilievre (@PierrePoilievre) May 7, 2019​
> More here.
> 
> During a recent hearing on Parliament Hill, Finance Minister Bill Morneau was asked about the fact that $250 MILLION Canadian taxpayer dollars are being given away to the Communist-China controlled ‘Infrastructure Bank.’​


Related (link from the comments):

Ronald McDonalds at the Helm: Leftist Clown Justin Trudeau Follows in the Footsteps of Obama



> Over the last year, I’ve met a growing number of fellow Canadians who have begun to yearn for a Donald to lead the country. They have belatedly recognized that they have a Ronald McDonald at the helm in Justin Trudeau, whose antics may delight children but who is quite incapable in any adult capacity.
> 
> Most recently, our dear leader in sensitive trade talks with the Japanese prime minister referred to the country as China. We recall that Trudeau wished the Canadian Olympic team in Seoul, South Korea, best of luck in Pyongyang, North Korea. We learn from an interview in The New York Times that Canada has no core identity—not how a sober statesman speaks of his country. This is the man who, as the beneficiary of a family trust fund, never had to run a household out of his own earnings, could say “The budget will balance itself,” while leading the country into astronomical debt. According to his way of thinking, the Boston Marathon bombers needed to be sympathetically understood, since they must have felt “completely excluded.” He sought a gender-balanced cabinet “because it’s 2015.” This is the zany who on a diplomatic visit to India can affect Bollywood and dress in a ceremonial costume to the bemusement of his hosts.
> 
> This is the man chronically embroiled in scandals after promising administrative transparency. This is the man who appointed as his attorney general a Kwak’wala woman who wants to break up the country—and who, in an instance of poetic justice, later accused him of bullying and malfeasance. This is the man who has no shame about his servile Muslim vote-pandering, switching into another exotic costume and praying at the Jamea Masjid mosque in Surrey, British Columbia.


Also from the comments:



> So SNC is banned by the World Bank from working on projects financed by the World Bank.
> 
> ...
> 
> So Turdeau gives $250 million to a new Chinese development bank. Was this to help the firm from poopineau get overseas contracts?


Good question.

Further from the comments:



> On another front, looks like Turdeau wants the bleeding to stop.


From which enclosed link to the Nat Post we learn:



> Prosecutors expected to withdraw breach of trust charge against Mark Norman
> 
> The federal government is expected to pull the plug on its prosecution of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman for alleged breach of trust, the National Post has learned.
> 
> The case is back in court on Wednesday for what was to have been a brief scheduled update on the progress of the government’s efforts at disclosing documents to Norman’s defence team.
> 
> Sources have confirmed that the prosecution will withdraw the charge instead.


Too much negativity in the limelight, Juthdin? Little too close to the election to hemorrhage any more voters? Hmmm?

Related to the above:

The Libranos: The Process Is The Punishment

From the comments:



> The feds know that if they go to trial A LOT OF UNFLATTERING FACTS ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT will create a proverbial electoral sh*tstorm. In short, this is all about how the government engaged in an untrammeled abuse of power wrt to Admiral Norman and how they were willing to steamroller him to granting bakshish grifting to the LIEberal estate.


Nails it.


----------



## CubaMark

*A Canadian Supreme Court Justice is missing.*

*Ottawa Police issue bulletin for missing Supreme Court Justice Clément Gascon*










Ottawa Police are asking for the public's help in locating Supreme Court Justice Clément Gascon, who announced his retirement from the top court earlier this year.

According to the notice put out by Ottawa Police, Gascon was last seen Wednesday around 1:20 pm in the 300 block of Wellington Street heading southwest.

Gascon, 59, is described by police as a white male, 183 cm tall, with short medium hair and a beard. He wears glasses and police say he was last seen wearing a black business suit.

Ottawa Police Sgt. Scott Fenton told CBC News that there is no indication of foul play or a crime scene and Gascon's disappearance is not being treated as a criminal investigation at the moment.

Anyone who knows where Gascon is now is asked to call the Ottawa Police at 613-236-1222.

Gascon is due to officially step down from his position on Sept. 15.

Born in Montreal in 1960, Gascon taught business, labour and construction law at the Université du Québec and McGill University and for the Quebec bar. He was appointed to the Quebec Court of Appeal in 2012 after having served on the bench of the Quebec Superior Court from 2002.

(CBC)​
*Related: *Ottawa Police Twitter Post


----------



## Macfury

Uh... I hope they find him.


----------



## eMacMan

Further on Mark Norman.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/cana...rand/wcm/00f5a3d3-d907-43a7-b3c5-ad28b261c83a



> The decision was a massive win for Henein and her client. The politically-charged case against Norman — he was accused of leaking confidential material related to a ship building contract — had come to centre in the public eye, like the SNC affair, around an accusation of political interference in a high-profile prosecution.
> 
> The SNC-Lavalin affair has come to define the later part of Trudeau’s tenure in office. And on Wednesday, Henein kept the focus on Trudeau, and his brand, from the moment she sat down.
> 
> “Before we get started,” she began, “I’d just like to introduce the” — at this point she paused for half a beat and allowed herself the slightest smile — “_all female_ team that represented Vice-Admiral Norman.” She delivered her next line in a stone-faced deadpan. “Fortunately Vice-Admiral Norman didn’t fire the females he hired.”


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Uh... I hope they find him.


They did.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh please, oh please, oh please...

Liberal government has ‘a secret plan’ to ban firearms, says MP



> Tony Clement says well-placed sources have informed him that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will announce a ban on legal firearms at a women’s conference this June in Vancouver.
> 
> “I am told on good authority that the prime minister has a secret plan to ban legal firearms. Apparently, this secret plan is to be executed by cabinet directive with no debate in parliament,” the independent MP for Parry Sound–Muskoka told the House of Commons at the close of Thursday’s question period.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

This makes the former USSR & Pravda look like pikers...

The Media Party



> They’re getting new armbands.


Can you imagine the hue & cry from the left if Harper had done this?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Chinada



> Pinky swear: _“We are willing to sign no-spy agreements with governments, including the UK government, to commit ourselves to making our equipment meet the no-spy, no-backdoors standard,” Huawei chairman Liang Hua told reporters in London via an interpreter._


Begging all sorts of questions.

From the comments:



> “We won’t lie to you,” they lied.
> 
> “Oh good,” we said, “that’ll be alight then.”


----------



## Beej

The federal NDP leader does not want to talk about the B.C. LNG project. To the point where he'd rather look like a fool than talk about the project.
https://twitter.com/PnPCBC/status/1128408742280798214

Next up, maybe he will clumsily try to avoid speaking about a new SUV plant in Ontario. :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> The federal NDP leader does not want to talk about the B.C. LNG project.


Related:

One week after losing B.C. seat to Green Party, NDP leader Singh now opposes fracking



> In an about-face coming a week after his party lost a Vancouver Island seat to the Green Party, federal NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh says he doesn’t support fracking and has concerns about a major liquefied natural gas project in British Columbia.
> 
> *Singh, who has previously voiced support for LNG Canada’s $40-billion natural gas export facility in northern B.C. and the Coastal GasLink pipeline that would feed it, told reporters in Ottawa on Monday that “the future of Canada does not include fracking.”* His comments come just days after NDP candidate Svend Robinson tweeted that his party’s loss of last week’s byelection in Nanaimo—Ladysmith is a “wake up call,” and demanded a stronger stance from the federal leader “opposing fracking and all new oil and gas infrastructure.”


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Of course he did!

Trudeau blames Harper for Vice-Admiral Norman charges



> “Will the prime minister now make the only appropriate decision and apologize to Mark Norman?” Scheer asked.
> 
> Trudeau’s response was to blame Stephen Harper for awarding the contract in the first place.
> 
> Never mind that it was Trudeau’s government that coached witnesses, withheld documents, stopped Vice-Admiral Norman from accessing his own emails while Gerry Butts could do so to reply to allegations on the SNC-Lavalin scandal.
> 
> Scheer not only pointed out that double standard but also asked why the PM caved so quickly to give Omar Khadr $10.5 million when he was suing the government but was willing to spend untold millions prosecuting Norman on an issue it turns out he could never win on but as NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said, helped Trudeau’s rich friends.


More:



> “This prime minister gave $10.5 million to Khadr, a convicted terrorist, so that he wouldn’t have to fight him in court,” Scheer said.
> 
> “But when it comes to a decorated naval officer who has put his career making Canadians safe, this prime minister spared no expense fighting him in court. Why the double standard?”


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> The federal NDP leader does not want to talk about the B.C. LNG project. To the point where he'd rather look like a fool than talk about the project.
> https://twitter.com/PnPCBC/status/1128408742280798214
> 
> Next up, maybe he will clumsily try to avoid speaking about a new SUV plant in Ontario. :lmao:


That should be troubling to anyone of the few supporters he has left. What a disgrace as a party leader.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada’s Afghan war memorial was dedicated in secrecy and families of the fallen weren't invited



> The Canadian Forces confirmed Thursday evening on Facebook that it had held a dedication service at the new Afghanistan Memorial Hall at the National Defence Headquarters (Carling) in the west end of Ottawa. But that happened three days earlier on May 13. “The event was attended by senior Canadian military leadership and Department management,” according to the Facebook posting.
> 
> *No press release was issued. The decision was made by officials to keep the event quiet and only to release the news via Twitter and Facebook at a later date. Families of the fallen were not invited to the dedication ceremony.*


Bold mine.

Curious, that...


----------



## CubaMark

Andrew Scheer sure is a smart fella! He saw Doug Ford's brilliant buck-a-beer campaign win Ontario, so now he figures Canadians from coast to coast will line up behind his beer truck.

Or... maybe we're smarter than that? :lmao:




*Take a read through the comments on Andy's brainwave... some of my favourites:*

*Tsiehta*
_@Tsiehta 13 May 2018_
What does American beer & making love in a canoe have in common? They r both f*cking near water. Andrew it's a small price to pay to live in the best country in the world with free health care. May I suggest that u & the rest of the @CPC_HQ move to the US, we all would be happier​

*Maximus Araelius*
_‏@tobias13_ 15 May 2018_
Can we start an exchange where Canadians who think living in the U.S. is cheaper can trade places with us Americans who want to GTFO to somewhere that understands the importance of access to healthcare to for all?​
*Carolyn*
_‏@cstampeen May 23_
You're comparing Canadian beer to American?

You are actually going to run on the cost of beer?

How are you planning to improve education, health care, the environment, help farmers provide us with good, affordable food for our tables?​
*Bill From Canada*
_‏@billfromcanada2 May 24_
Wow you love half truths & word games. Like implying a case of beer has gone up $20 when you know that’s an outright lie.
We pay more for a case of beer than Americans? I’ll gladly pay more for beer to have my healthcare covered. One is a necessity; the other is beer.
#canpoli​
*for great social justice*
_‏@rickinnis 15 May 2018_
And yet when that Canadian falls ill, they don’t have to sell their home to pay hospital bills, as their American neighbour will.​
*Jay Feth*
_@Jay__Feth 15 May 2018_
Two years ago I had surgery to replace my heart valve. Thanks to TAXES, I'm still alive today and didn't have to sell my house and all my belongings and go into massive debt. I'll happily pay for that case of beer...​

*Jill Promoli*
_@jillpromoli May 23_
What services would you cut to make beer cheaper? What other part of life would become more expensive to accommodate the lost revenue because you would prioritize cheap beer? What do you value less as a federal priority than beer?​
*Timothy Anderson*
_@AndersonBooz 13 May 2018_
Dear Mr. Scheer: 

This obsession with the price of beer and the transportation of beer interprovincially seems really peculiar to those of us who don't drink alcohol. It's still a fairly cheap beverage, and not in short supply.

Maybe pick a more important issue.​


----------



## Macfury

OK, so some castrati leftists love high taxes--and they're willing to sing about it on Twitter. They're not smarter, they're just less capable of managing their own lives, more dependent on uncle sugar, and much happier to stick their hands in somebody else's pocket.

One question though--why is this Tweet from over a year ago suddenly getting under your lefty hide?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> why is this Tweet from over a year ago suddenly getting under your lefty hide?


It came up, as things are wont to do, in social media.

Has Scheer since corrected his false assertion?

Are you content to support the Federal Conservatives in the coming election with a man of such breathtaking mental faculties leading the party?

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Another carefully curated submission from CM, aged like mouldy cheese. 

After discounting the dim bulbs in charge of the Liberals, NDP and Green Party, I am content to support the Federal Conservatives. At least they'll dispense with some of your Earth Momma eco-hysteria.




CubaMark said:


> It came up, as things are wont to do, in social media.
> 
> Has Scheer since corrected his false assertion?
> 
> Are you content to support the Federal Conservatives in the coming election with a man of such breathtaking mental faculties leading the party?
> 
> :lmao:


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Are you content to support the Federal Conservatives in the coming election with a man of such breathtaking mental faculties leading the party?


Good grief, compared to Turdeau he is a scholar who does not um and uh his way through a butchered language speech.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Good grief, compared to Turdeau he is a scholar who does not um and uh his way through a butchered language speech.


Trudeau can join Scheer on a desert island, so far as I'm concerned 

Interesting how the argument changes... Trump's ability to get through a sentence (let alone a speech) coherently is forgiven, while Obama (despite the ocasional stumble) is remembered for his ability to actually communicate complete concepts (regardless, he can also join Trudeau and Scheer on that little island).

There are no current leaders of federal parties who inspire any great confidence in their ability to lead the country. A sorry time for Canadian politics.


----------



## eMacMan

Personally I view Scheer through the same lens as I use on other politicians. He's a politician, if his lips are moving he's probably lying. Any tax change proposals he makes will benefit his rich buds, most often at the expense of poorer Canadians. He will faithfully represent the interests of the Banksters, MIC, the Globalists and Zionists, even to the detriment of Canada and Canadians.

IOW the names and faces will change but the dark side will continue to flourish.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Any idiot can read from a teleprompter. Jug Ears did it for 8 years. The few times he got caught without one in front of him he presented as well as Justa Turd usually does.



CubaMark said:


> ... while Obama (despite the ocasional stumble) is remembered for his ability to actually communicate complete concepts...


----------



## Macfury

My personal finances were better before Trudeau arrived. They are better in Ontario now that Wynne is gone.

I am thankful for small blessings.



eMacMan said:


> Personally I view Scheer through the same lens as I use on other politicians. He's a politician, if his lips are moving he's probably lying. Any tax change proposals he makes will benefit his rich buds, most often at the expense of poorer Canadians. He will faithfully represent the interests of the Banksters, MIC, the Globalists and Zionists, even to the detriment of Canada and Canadians.
> 
> IOW the names and faces will change but the dark side will continue to flourish.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau's holier-than-thou tweet causes migrant crisis — now he needs to fix what he started



> After the Prime Minister’s tweet, embassies were deluged with requests, according to emails obtained by the National Post. Then the flood began. In a world filled with people desperately trying to get into rich countries — and an industry of smugglers to find loopholes to get them in — this was an open invitation to flood into Canada.


More:



> Before the tweet, border officials prevented 315 people a month from illegally crossing the border. Post-tweet in 2017, about 18,149 illegally crossed the border, then claimed asylum as refugees — even after entering illegally — and were allowed to stay, get welfare, education, housing, healthcare and work permits. By May 2018, the number of refugee cases pending has jumped to 54,906 from 18,348 in December 2016. That’s the population of Grande Prairie, Alberta or Granby, Quebec.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> so now he figures Canadians from coast to coast will line up behind his beer truck.


I haven't checked the latest data but alcohol taxes, particularly beer taxes, were regressive and long-since disconnected from a careful cost/benefit analysis. It's a sin tax, and the debate should only be about how much more the sinners will pay. "Buck a beer" focuses the lens on lower incomes (and away from top shelf whiskey and craft beer)...the low income sinners.

Opposition and ridicule is expected from those who want to punish low income sinners.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> I haven't checked the latest data but alcohol taxes, particularly beer taxes, were regressive and long-since disconnected from a careful cost/benefit analysis. It's a sin tax, and the debate should only be about how much more the sinners will pay. "Buck a beer" focuses the lens on lower incomes (and away from top shelf whiskey and craft beer)...the low income sinners.
> 
> Opposition and ridicule is expected from those who want to punish low income sinners.


If you lower taxes on beer, children will die in hospital emergency rooms.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Good for them!

'It’s been a challenging five months': Wilson-Raybould, Philpott to run as independents in fall election



> Former Liberal cabinet ministers Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott will run as Independents in the upcoming federal election, they declared Monday.
> 
> The pair made their plans known through separate but co-ordinated announcements in their ridings — Wilson-Raybould in Vancouver and Philpott outside Toronto. Both dressed in white, pointedly eschewing any party’s colours.


Yet one more "Up yours!" to The Dope.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Good for them!
> 
> 'It’s been a challenging five months': Wilson-Raybould, Philpott to run as independents in fall election
> 
> Yet one more "Up yours!" to The Dope.



Glad to hear it, may they stomp all over the dopeheads appointees


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Glad to hear it, may they stomp all over the dopeheads appointees


Yep. I don't care for the politics of either, but if they can take the place of two of Dumbo's idiots...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Good!!!

Court rules SNC-Lavalin must stand trial on bribery, fraud charges



> A Quebec judge has ruled that SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. should stand trial on criminal corruption charges, throwing the Canadian engineering giant into further legal limbo as investors sour on the company in increasing numbers.
> 
> Judge Claude Leblond of the Quebec Court ruled Wednesday that there is enough evidence to move ahead with a trial. As with all of the evidence in the case, the reasons for his judgment is subject to a publication ban.
> 
> The decision adds further pressure on SNC-Lavalin chief executive Neil Bruce, who is trying to get the company back on track following disappointing financial results and continued uncertainty about its future in Canada. *It will also weigh on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government, which had worked behind the scenes to explore a settlement for SNC and warned thousands of jobs were at risk if it is found guilty of the charges.*


Bold mine.

SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIEEEEE!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> @TheRealKeean – Wow. The Liberal caucus is recommending to give the Human Rights Tribunal (a kangaroo court) the extraordinary power of issuing judicially enforced cease and desist orders on Canadian speech. This is dangerous. The CHRT are politically motivated fraudsters. Insanity. #cdnpoli​


Bring it! The quicker the country discovers that Prinz Dumkopf is nothing more than a totalitarian in a nice hairdo, the better.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on my post #24016 above.

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin

Posted for the comments.


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting that Trudeau would speak out on US abortion policy;
https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...-s-state-abortion-laws-in-talks-with-vp-pence

While continuing to ignore the devastating potential of FATCA on over a million Canadian citizens who have the misfortune to have a drop of American blood in their veins. 

NOTE: That it was the Harpoon who treasonously enshrined the FATCA IGA on Canada Day and that Scheer also seems unwilling to tackle the worlds biggest terrorist organization, namely the IRS.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Libranos: Starch In Their Uniforms



> National Post:
> 
> The federal government’s industrial benefits program for military procurement is so open to interpretation that instead of high-tech defence industry jobs Canada could end up with more plants that produce french fries, say procurement specialists.
> 
> * The government has allowed Irving Shipbuilding to claim a $40-million industrial benefit credit for an Alberta french fry factory as part of a contract to provide the Royal Canadian Navy with new Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships, the Globe and Mail confirmed Thursday.*
> 
> Under the government’s industrial and technological benefits policy, the prime contractors on such military procurements are required to do work in Canada equal to 100 per cent of the value of the contract they receive.​
> Irving, again.


Bold mine... :yikes:


----------



## FUXL

This is one ugly bigot. From butt**** Alberta too.


----------



## Macfury

FUXL has come back from the dead to wipe the bowl as his beloved Liberals circle the toilet.


----------



## SINC

I still think he and his crooked Turdeau and his tainted cabinet should FUXL off for good and they will come October.


----------



## 18m2

None of the political parties or leaders have what it takes to attract my vote nor contribution of money and work.

From an Abacus Data pole.

https://abacusdata.ca/liberals-and-conservatives-neck-and-neck-as-greens-rise-to-12/


----------



## eMacMan

18m2 said:


> None of the political parties or leaders have what it takes to attract my vote nor contribution of money and work.


On this we agree. 

We were brought up believing in good and evil. God versus Satan, Superman versus Lex Luther, Jesus versus the money lenders...

Our guys are supposed to be the good guys, those guys over there are therefore evil. I would bet that most Germans viewed the invasion of Poland as being right, they were trying to re-unite two parts of a nation unnaturally separated by the Treaty of Versailles. We of course were brought up being taught it was an act of evil aggression. Either way the money lenders won and everyone else lost.

What it comes down to is: Most of our politicians are closer in nature to Darth Vader than to Luke Skywalker and the entire system is designed to perpetuate that. They count on us being too dumb to see that, and sadly far too many are more than willing to oblige.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Coulda Had Max



> Coward.
> 
> Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer has stripped MP Michael Cooper of his spot on the House of Commons justice committee as punishment for Cooper’s angry confrontation with a Muslim witness in hearings dedicated to online hate.
> 
> Earlier this week, Cooper told Faisal Khan Suri he should be “ashamed” after he drew a link between “conservative commentators” and the online history of mosque shooter Alexandre Bissonnette.
> 
> Cooper also quoted from the manifesto of the man accused of the mass killings in Christchurch, New Zealand in an attempt to discredit Suri’s testimony.​


Comments hilarious.


----------



## SINC

This is so wrong in so many ways. Hang the bastards.

*EXCLUSIVE: Canada’s plan for managing the return of ISIS fighters revealed in documents*



> Telling his parents he was flying to Turkey for two weeks, Mohamed Ali left Canada in April 2014 to join the so-called Islamic State.
> 
> “I traded the snow for the desert sand,” he wrote on social media after his arrival in Syria.
> 
> Four years later, ISIS is collapsing in Syria and Iraq and Canadian officials are bracing for the possible return of foreign fighters like Ali — if he is still alive — as well as their wives and children. Some have already come back.


More at the link.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4205480/canadas-plan-freturn-isis-fighters/


----------



## SINC

*Trudeau’s ‘climate emergency’ meets his national muddle of malfunctioning carbon taxes*

Opinion: Ideally, carbon pricing should be economically efficient, low cost, socially benign and administratively simple. In Canada it is none of these.



> The news last week that the Trudeau government has introduced into the House of Commons a motion to declare a “climate emergency” in Canada may draw even more attention to its policy governing carbon-dioxide pricing and taxation. To proponents, carbon dioxide pricing is economically efficient, low in cost, socially benign and administratively simple.
> 
> In Canada, however, the carbon-pricing regimes that have been implemented by the federal and provincial governments have none of these advantages.


More at the link.

https://business.financialpost.com/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1559736998


----------



## SINC

A look at our future in Canada if we don't get rid of Turdeau in October.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Of course it does!

“It increases my feminism”: Justin Trudeau says about ejecting Wilson-Raybould and Philpott from the Liberal cabinet



> During the Women Deliver 2019 conference Justin Trudeau claimed that dealing with “tough women” in his cabinet increased his feminism.
> 
> When Prime Minister @JustinTrudeau was asked about ejecting "tough women" like @Puglaas and @janephilpott from the Liberal cabinet at a feminist conference on Monday, he said it "increases his feminism". #WomenDeliver2019
> 
> 🤔🤔🤔 pic.twitter.com/0bOftvUkJZ
> — Cosmin Dzsurdzsa (@cosminDZS) June 5, 2019​


Not to mention what it does to his stupidity...

<just shaking my head...>


----------



## SINC

Yep, for sure!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

MMIW inquiry's police review team waited until final months to request case files



> The special team set up to review police investigations for the national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women began issuing subpoenas for police files only in the final months of its mandate, despite the inquiry’s promise that its review of policing was a centrepiece of its work.
> 
> The inquiry’s final report, officially released on Monday in Gatineau, Que., shows that the forensic document review team began issuing subpoenas to police forces across the country only on Sept. 20, 2018, more than a year after the inquiry announced in a statement that it had a committee reviewing police files.


More:



> Asked about the delay after the closing ceremony on Monday, Chief Commissioner Marion Buller said the timing was “not late.”


Good enough for gov't work...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Navdeep Bains and his dept. silent on how many times they’ve alerted the Irvings about journalists



> Last week the Globe and Mail revealed the Liberal government had allowed Irving Shipbuilding to claim a $40-million industrial benefit credit for an Alberta french fry factory as part of a contract to provide the Royal Canadian Navy with new Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships. The industrial benefit policy is supposed to promote innovative work and research in defence and aerospace fields but it also allows for non-related benefits to receive credit.


More:



> After that happened the Globe received a legal notice from a lawyer representing the Irvings that the newspaper would be sued if the story contained allegations of improper conduct.
> 
> The article never had any allegations of improper conduct.
> 
> Why did this all take place?


Guess the Grope & Flail is going to get a smaller piece of that $600K now...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada’s Prime Minister.



> Please tell me this is a fake video. It can’t be real. pic.twitter.com/IvynwHMmaq
> 
> — Michelle Rempel (@MichelleRempel) June 10, 2019​


What a colossal, international embarrassment. It hurts to even wach.

Those of you who voted for this idiot must be proud...


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> Canada’s Prime Minister.
> 
> 
> 
> What a colossal, international embarrassment. It hurts to even wach.
> 
> Those of you who voted for this idiot must be proud...


yikes, that is some serious flubbing on the words 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaPgmQVQ75k[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

I've met the guy. He radiates "dim-bulb" in person.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I've met the guy.


I'm truly sorry.

Frankly, I wouldn't be caught in the same room as the idiot...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Threats, threats, threats...

Just separate already.

In ‘urgent letter’, six premiers tell Trudeau national unity would be threatened if bills C-48, C-69 become law



> Six premiers asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Monday to change or bury two pieces of federal legislation that critics of both bills say could hurt Canada’s energy and natural resources sectors.
> Story continues below
> 
> The two bills are C-69, legislation that would change the way regulatory authorities evaluate and assess proposed new major resources projects, and C-48, the Oil Tanker Moratorium Act, which, if passed, would turn into law into what has been practised for years: the prohibition of any oil tankers off of Canada’s northern B.C. coast.


----------



## SINC

Watch the Turd ignore the premier of each province and tell 'em to pound salt. Which is exactly what Canadians should tell this asshole, come October. He is an enemy to Canada, pure and simple. Not to mention a mental moron.


----------



## SINC

The hypocrisy.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on boxed water...

Worth a thousand...



> ...words, er... sunny days...


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Further on boxed water...
> 
> Worth a thousand...
> 
> 
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


I saw those boxed waters selling for around $2.50 a litre. I bought one on discount for 24 cents when the line was being discontinued and put it in my kid's lunch as a joke. He laughed and laughed. Said it tasted like cardboard. Asked me never to do it again.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I saw those boxed waters selling for around $2.50 a litre. I bought one on discount for 24 cents when the line was being discontinued and put it in my kid's lunch as a joke. He laughed and laughed. Said it tasted like cardboard. Asked me never to do it again.


I've never seen a box of water...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> I've never seen a box of water...


Once sold in the hoity-toity section reserved for cold-pressed juices—before they were discontinued.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Once sold in the hoity-toity section reserved for cold-pressed juices—before they were discontinued.


Ah. Probably why. I _never_ go to the hoity-toity section... :lmao::lmao::lmao:

I have, however, seen cans of water. Years ago in my hometown a CPR engine derailed beside one of the grain elevators & caused some damage to the building. A crew was brought in to hoist it back onto the rails & they were drinking pull tab cans of water labelled simply, "CP Rail Drinking Water" or some such. I asked for & received a couple cans. I'm sure I still have them around here somewhere.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Ah. Probably why. I _never_ go to the hoity-toity section... :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> I have, however, seen cans of water. Years ago in my hometown a CPR engine derailed beside one of the grain elevators & caused some damage to the building. A crew was brought in to hoist it back onto the rails & they were drinking pull tab cans of water labelled simply, "CP Rail Drinking Water" or some such. I asked for & received a couple cans. I'm sure I still have them around here somewhere.


In Toronto, we used to walk the railway line to get to a nearby mall. I remember seeing these empty water cans dumped trackside!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on Captain Stumble.

Trudeau and the Gang of Six: A PM undone by his own handiwork



> There’s almost no other way to put it: the prime minister seems to be losing his marbles. On Monday, the premiers of five provinces and the Northwest Territories sent him a polite, conventional open letter raising familiar concerns with the Liberal government’s resource bills C-69 (which creates a new regime for federal review of big infrastructure projects) and C-48 (the ban on oil tanker traffic along most of B.C.’s coast).
> 
> The premiers, who included the three Prairie conservatives, Ontario’s Doug Ford, and New Brunswick’s Blaine Higgs, didn’t say anything you haven’t heard before. They claimed that C-69 is a “reform” that makes things worse for megaproject investors, who are already shying away from Canada, and that as passed by the House of Commons it tramples provincial responsibility for resource development. The tanker ban, they added, is just the putrid icing on the toxic C-69 cake.


----------



## SINC

*Why Trudeau’s 'plastic ban' is a painfully dumb idea*

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/ca...idea/wcm/a3868521-c99a-490d-a363-e3c70f5f2dc4


----------



## Beej

The saga of the garbage ship continues...

https://vancouversun.com/news/local...g-garbage-boat-that-is-destined-for-vancouver


> June 12: The MV Bavaria was last docked in Singapore. Shortly after, it left to return to the Philippines, according to routing data.
> 
> June 16: The ship made a port call at Batangas, a province in the Philippines. It’s unclear why the boat returned to the Philippines after being sent off by Duterte.
> 
> June 17: The MV Bavaria was scheduled to make a stop back in Manila.


Covered by Rebel Media here:
https://www.therebel.media/update-garbage-ship-returned-to-manila-philippines-catherine-mckenna

Some data:
https://www.myshiptracking.com/vessels/bavaria-mmsi-636016072-imo-9238753

The ship went to Taiwan, China, Malaysia, Singapore, then back to Philippines.

Problem solved!

The garbage may have been re-loaded onto a larger ship (e.g. at Singapore). Was that disclosed from the start?


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!*

BRIBED... 



> ...with your own money... again...
> 
> _ OTTAWA - The federal Liberals say a new program to *help new buyers pay for their first home* will kick in on Labour Day.
> 
> The program that will help cover some mortgage costs will be available starting *Sept. 2, only weeks before* the October federal election._​


Links' bold.


----------



## FUXL

How do you spell Eckville? Goat herders r us y'all.


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> BRIBED...
> 
> 
> 
> Links' bold.


Is there not already some fees waved for first time house buyers? Years ago my dad and I bought a house to renovate and flip. Bought it under my name for this reason. Cannot remember exactly what the savings were.


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> How do you spell Eckville? Goat herders r us y'all.


Hey man, good to see you again. How's yer man The Turd doin' in the polls?

You can FUXL off now.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> BRIBED...
> 
> Links' bold.


Let's see if you can't afford a new home: Is it because money you should have been saving was going into booze, drugs, lotto tickets and/or hookers? Is it because you just don't bring in enough to pay the monthly payments?

If it is either of those two you probably should not be buying a home at all!

Benefits a select few who are for the most part in the 'unlikely to vote demographic' and offends far more who are in the 'likely to vote' demographic.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Liberal Lite.

I Want A New Country



> Scheer climate plan would encompass more big polluters, require investments as penalty
> 
> A portion of Scheer’s plan, obtained by CBC News, would compel facilities that produce 40 kilotonnes of emissions or more per year to invest in green tech. The Trudeau government’s current rules impose emission caps on firms that emit more than 50 kilotonnes per year.
> 
> Scheer will outline his party’s much-anticipated environmental policy at a speech in Quebec on Wednesday. The Liberals have criticized him for taking such a long time to release a climate plan; Scheer was elected leader of the Conservative Party in May 2017. […]
> 
> In 2017, the 1,622 facilities monitored by Environment Canada’s GHG Reporting Program accounted for 292 megatonnes of emissions — 41 per cent of Canada’s total, according to Environment Canada. The oil and gas sector was responsible for more than a third of those emissions.
> 
> Mining and oil and gas have been the only sectors to increase emissions since 2005.​
> Coulda had Max.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.
> 
> Liberal Lite.
> 
> I Want A New Country


Only Justin Trudeau could get me to vote Scheer.


----------



## 18m2

This article about being bribed with our own money begs me to ask about the plan by indigenous groups and the like to buy the TM pipeline.

Where is the money going to come from to buy the pipeline? 

Are not most of the indigenous peoples living off federal government supporting programs?


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> Are not most of the indigenous peoples living off federal government supporting programs?


Racis'!!!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Only Justin Trudeau could get me to vote Scheer.


Ya know, I'm not actually sure who I'm going to vote for.
1) Justa Turd, 'cause the quicker we hit bottom the faster we can get somebody from the actual right in;
2) Scheer, even if he's Liberal Lite, merely 'cause it's morally wrong to vote for a Turdeau;
3) Max, if for no other reason it can be logged as a protest vote.

We really need a "None of the above" category on the ballot. Perhaps I'll just pencil one in...


----------



## 18m2

And this thing about banning plastic bags ... I thought plastic bags were saving our forests by reducing tree harvesting. I'm confused.


----------



## FeXL

Justice Committee recommends prosecuting “online hate” under human rights law



> After hearing from nearly five dozen witnesses over two months of meetings, the Canadian Parliament’s Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights has tabled its report in the House of Commons.
> 
> The report from the Liberal-dominated committee lays out nine recommendations for Members of Parliament to adopt. *Most notable is the implementation of a “civil remedy” to combat online hate, which the report acknowledges must first be defined in law.*
> 
> The Conservatives have already taken aim at the report, charging its recommendations call for an “unacceptable violation” of free speech.


Bold mine.

I can see the definition of "hate speech" now. It could be summed up in 3 words: Anything anti-progressive...


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> And this thing about banning plastic bags ... I thought plastic bags were saving our forests by reducing tree harvesting. I'm confused.


Yeah, but the Progs have decided that oil wells are worse than cutting down swaths of forest.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> ...
> 
> We really need a "None of the above" category on the ballot. Perhaps I'll just pencil one in...


Been saying that for years.


----------



## Beej

wonderings said:


> Is there not already some fees waved for first time house buyers? Years ago my dad and I bought a house to renovate and flip. Bought it under my name for this reason. Cannot remember exactly what the savings were.


There is a first-time buyer's plan. You can withdraw RRSP savings tax free for the down payment, with the requirement to re-deposit into the RRSP over time.


----------



## Macfury

I think it's important for government policy to tax prudent behaviour to support the bad financial habits of people who can't even save enough money for a down payment. Teaches the right kind of lessons about dependence on government and the importance of hedonism.


----------



## wonderings

Beej said:


> There is a first-time buyer's plan. You can withdraw RRSP savings tax free for the down payment, with the requirement to re-deposit into the RRSP over time.


That was not it, I definitely did not have any RRSP's at the time. I think the land transfer tax was waved or something like that.


----------



## Beej

wonderings said:


> That was not it, I definitely did not have any RRSP's at the time. I think the land transfer tax was waved or something like that.


Interesting mystery. I found a website that covers a number of other programs, including by province.
https://showmethegreen.ca/home/home-improvement/first-time-home-buyer-tax-credit/

Maybe something there will look familiar.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> That was not it, I definitely did not have any RRSP's at the time. I think the land transfer tax was waved or something like that.


Land transfer tax was waived for first-time owners and as your primary residence, no capital gains could be charged on the increased value when sold.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Good news!

Study: The US Is No Longer The Top Destination For Refugees



> The United States is no longer the top destination for the world’s refugees, falling from its number one position for the first time in nearly 40 years.
> 
> In what appears to be a historical turnaround, Canada surpassed the U.S. in the number of refugees it accepted into its country in 2018, according to a newly released study from the Pew Research Center. Canada resettled a total of 28,000 refugees in 2018. In comparison, the U.S. resettled only 23,000 — a substantial decrease from the 33,000 that were accepted in 2017.


----------



## SINC

*Economic benefits of carbon taxes overstated, says Fraser report*



> The report by Guelph University economist Ross McKitrick for the fiscally-conservative think tank — Apples to Apples: Making Valid Cost-Benefit Comparisons in Climate Policies — says the problem is that politicians don’t understand basic economics.
> 
> This leads to inaccurate claims, as made recently by the Green Party of Ontario, McKitrick says, that the cost of climate change to the Canadian economy will be over $91 billion annually by 2050 without a federal carbon tax — currently $20 per tonne of industrial greenhouse gas emissions, rising to $50 per tonne in 2022.
> 
> The problem is this makes a false comparison between the cost of the carbon tax in Canada and the impact it will have on reducing the costs of human-induced climate change globally, known as a “total-versus-marginal error.”
> 
> “People often compare the wrong things when trying to decide if a policy is worth pursuing” McKitrick said.
> 
> “If one person comments on the high cost of a proposed policy and someone retorts that it is a small amount compared to the costs of climate change, that is a fallacy because the two are not alternatives. We cannot trade off the marginal cost of a policy against the benefit of eliminating the total costs of all climate change because the policy will not achieve anything on that scale. The proper comparison is between the cost of the policy and the benefits attributable to only that policy.
> 
> “Claiming that a Canadian climate policy would stop all climate change exaggerates its benefits. Since Canada represents about 2% of global carbon dioxide emissions, policies such as the recently implemented federal carbon tax will reduce total global emissions only by a fraction of 1%, which will have a very small effect on the global climate.”
> 
> The second common mistake political supporters of carbon taxes make, added McKitrick, is known as “the-social-versus private error” which considers carbon taxes in isolation from other taxation policies and ignores the ways in which these policies interact.
> 
> Both of these errors, he said, exaggerate the benefits of Canadian carbon taxation policies and make a false economic case for ever-increasing carbon taxes.


https://edmontonsun.com/opinion/col...port/wcm/83a6d12d-ca62-4286-9baf-49554b1f966a


----------



## CubaMark

_Don, anything coming out of the Fraser Institute is worth less than the photons used to transmit it on the screen. For folks who have railed against foreign interests funding Canadian organizations, one would think they'd also have a problem with it. As compiled by North 99:_

Most Canadians have heard of the Fraser Institute, the British Columbia-based “think tank”. Its reports and “studies” are often covered in the mainstream media as independent and objective.

But the truth is that the Fraser Institute exists to promote rightwing ideology. It was created and is funded by big corporate interests who sought to change government policy to enrich themselves.

Here are 7 facts about the Fraser Institute that they don’t want you to know:

1. The Fraser Institute’s research wing was created with money from tobacco companies. The Institute’s “Social Affairs Centre”, set up to promote “free-market” policies on tobacco, guns, and drug use was funded by tobacco giants Rothman’s and Phillip Morris. In 1999, the Fraser Institute wrote letters to British American Tobacco begging for more funding, highlighting reports they had done to discredit science around the harms of second-hand smoke.

2. *The Fraser Institute was a leading opponent of anti-smoking laws, and promoted junk science that denied the harmful effects of second-hand smoke.* The Institute, funded by Big Tobacco, produced numerous “studies” that attempted to discredit scientific research on smoking. In particular, the Institute worked to undermine public perception of second-hand smoke. While proven to be harmful, the Institute published numerous reports claiming that second-hand smoke was safe.

3.* The Fraser Institute has taken over one million dollars (at least) from the Koch Brothers.* The billionaire Koch brothers are known to Canadians as the Republican donors who bankrolled the Tea Party and other far-right American groups. But they also have their tentacles in Canada, and the Fraser Institute is one of their servants, receiving at least one million dollars of Koch money. In 2012 the Vancouver Observer reported that “according to U.S. tax documents, The Fraser Institute received $150,000 from the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation in 2008, $175,500 in 2009, and another $150,000 in 2010. The grants were purportedly for “research support” and “educational programs”.

4. *The Fraser Institute takes millions of dollars in dark money from foreign organizations. *Beyond the Koch Brothers, the Fraser Institute has a large network of rightwing American funders. Over the years, they have accepted millions of dollars from these sources. While the Institute no longer reveals their large donors, external documents show that they have taken more than $2.6 million from rightwing groups and corporations.

5.* The Fraser Institute has taken hundreds of thousands of dollars from Big Oil.* One of the Fraser Institute’s benefactors has been oil giant ExxonMobil. Exxon has given the Fraser Institute at least $120,000. Apparently it’s money well-spent. The Institute is one of the leading Canadian voices of climate change denial. They have published multiple documents denying climate change, including one which put their position clearly: “There is no clear evidence, nor unique attribution, of the global effects of anthropogenic CO2 on climate.”

6. *The Fraser Institute supports huge tax cuts for the 1% and corporations, but opposes a higher minimum wage for workers.* One of the Fraser Institute’s biggest issues is the minimum wage. They hate it. But at the same time, they support measures that would greatly increase income for the very rich. For example, the Institute supports reducing or abolishing the corporate tax (taxes corporations pay) and the capital gains tax (taxes that people pay when they get capital income, like when CEOs cash in stock options). Both of these changes would massively benefit the rich. But when it comes to working people, the Fraser Institute opposes policies to increase wages by even a few bucks.

7. *The Fraser Institute attempts to indoctrinate elementary and high school students*. Every year the Fraser Institute runs an essay contest which directs primary and secondary school students to submit an essay on a policy topic. Some school boards even promote the contest in classrooms. The Institute strongly suggests that winning submissions conform to rightwing ideology. For example, this year’s contest asked students to explain why the minimum wage was a “misguided” idea and suggested students consult a video called “Minimum wage hikes in Canada: Bad idea” to understand the issue.

In spite of all this, the mainstream media still treats the Fraser Institute as an objective, independent source.

And they have maintained their charitable tax status, which means the huge donations the Institute accepts from rightwing billionaires are tax deductible.

*The Fraser Institute is not a charity. It’s not an independent think tank. It’s a rightwing propaganda outfit propped up by billionaires and corporations.*

It’s time the media started treating the Fraser Institute for what it is.​


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Hypocrite! You have no trouble with foreign funding of "green" initiatives or lobbying by foreign environmental groups.

Now how about addressing the arguments instead of screaming about the source of those arguments.



CubaMark said:


> _Don, anything coming out of the Fraser Institute is worth less than the photons used to transmit it on the screen. For folks who have railed against foreign interests funding Canadian organizations, one would think they'd also have a problem with it. _


----------



## Macfury

Doug Ford is doing good work in Ontario--better than Wynne by miles.
Scheer will be better than Trudeau--also by miles.



CubaMark said:


> Really bad Peanuts pastiche


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hypocrite! You have no trouble with foreign funding of "green" initiatives or lobbying by foreign environmental groups.
> 
> Now how about addressing the arguments instead of screaming about the source of those arguments.


It's typical Prog MO. When they can't refute the argument, they go after the vehicle.

Notice he skirts entirely the billions of $$$ MotherCorpse has received as a leftwing propaganda outfit propped up by taxpayer dollars.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Yer taxpayer $$$ at work.

It’s good to be rich and a Liberal



> “We work with the municipalities and federal government to submit a list of what we think, some projects that would be submitted — we put some on, the national government wanted the airport put on and we will put it on,” McNeil said.
> 
> *The Liberals are taking $18 million from taxpayers to fund a private airport at the elite Cabot Links Golf Resort for their millionaire friends to park their private jets.* #cdnpoli #nspoli #capebreton pic.twitter.com/CFrZF9uxqr
> 
> — John Barlow (@JohnBarlowMP) June 20, 2019​


Bold mine.

Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Illegal voter problem? What illegal voter problem?

Forget about the Russians... 



> ...the real threat to honest elections is Canada's civil service...
> 
> According to an alarming report by Blacklock’s Reporter, approximately 112,000 foreigners were *included in a federal list* of potential voters.
> 
> Internal documents from the Department of Immigration show that *thousands of non-citizens* were named on the *National Register of Electors.*​


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

RCMP went silent about massive pot bust over concern for marijuana producer’s stock price, documents reveal



> In the spring of 2014, RCMP officers in Kelowna, B.C. prepared a press release about a big drug bust at the local airport. It described how investigators had intercepted two shipments of marijuana of “unfathomable quantity” that were bound for a couple of licensed cannabis producers in Ontario. The press release, however, was never sent.
> 
> Days went by with a virtual information blackout over what the Mounties had seized and why, even after one of the companies — Tweed Marijuana Inc., now Canopy Growth Corp. — decided to release its own public statement, containing what some RCMP members perceived to be “brutally misleading” information about the seizure.
> 
> “I don’t see how we can’t comment as we are now being put in a negative light,” one frustrated sergeant wrote to a colleague in an email. “Basic media principles state that we should confirm the obvious — Tweed has chosen to put this out there so we would be remiss if we did not comment on factual points that have been inaccurately represented.”
> 
> More than 900 pages of internal records obtained by the National Post reveal for the first time the lengthy deliberations that took place among RCMP members in B.C. and at RCMP headquarters in Ottawa over what, if anything, to tell the public about the March 31, 2014, seizures at Kelowna International Airport.


The Queen's Horsemen: merely another Liberal arm...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

No, No, No.



> Stay strong, Prime Minister. Hold the line.
> 
> But the Premiers didn’t create this mess. They’re just responding to legislation from the Liberals. If Trudeau wants to end this, he should moderate his bill.​


----------



## FeXL

How Vancouver became the world’s 'laundromat for foreign organized crime’



> Vancouver penthouses, ski chalets at Whistler, and holiday retreats in the Gulf Islands are among the thousands of properties identified in a dirty money probe that estimates more than $7 billion was laundered through the western Canadian province of British Columbia last year.
> 
> The startling findings from two reports released by the provincial government Thursday illustrate how a torrent of suspicious cash has fuelled casinos, luxury car sales and real estate in the Pacific Coast region. “The amount of money being laundered in B.C. is more than anyone predicted,” Finance Minister Carole James told reporters Thursday.


----------



## FeXL

Idjits, the lot of 'em...

Scheer and Trudeau both continue their tiresome climate charades



> It is a fiction and a delusion that Canada is in any way now or ever will be a significant influence, for good or ill, in the dreary, endless, pup-chasing-its-own-tail “fight against climate change.”
> 
> *Canada’s leverage over the future climate of the entire planet is incidental and trivial. We are as a toothpick among redwoods.* This is acknowledged. Were we to halt this country’s entire energy output, the race to eco-apocalypse that the doom-mongers say we’re on would not be slowed by a week. The coal mines of India and China would see to that.


Bold mine.

But what about all the virtue-signalling? :-(


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

RACIS'!!!

Federal leaders silent as Quebec bans wearing religious symbols at work



> Silence.
> 
> That’s all that could be heard from the federal party leaders, essentially: silence, or something approaching that.
> 
> The occasion: the decision of assorted Quebec politicians to pass a law telling religious people what they can wear. Jews, Sikhs, but mainly Muslims.
> 
> The law, formerly called Bill 21, was passed last weekend in a special sitting of the so-called National Assembly. It makes it illegal to wear religious symbols at work if you’re a teacher, bus driver, cop, nurse, or even a day care worker. It applies to everyone who gets a stipend from the province, basically.


More:



> The law is illegal. It is wildly unconstitutional, for all the reasons you’d expect: it stomps all over freedom of speech, freedom of religion and equality rights. It giddily shreds the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> The law is against the law. So, Quebec’s ruling class — who have never been particularly fussy about Jews, Sikhs or Muslims, truth be told — also stipulated their law would operate “notwithstanding” the Charter.


If this would have happened in Alberta, the hue & cry would have been a mile long & 10 miles deep.

Kaybeck?

Nuttin'...


----------



## wonderings

FeXL said:


> RACIS'!!!
> 
> Federal leaders silent as Quebec bans wearing religious symbols at work
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> If this would have happened in Alberta, the hue & cry would have been a mile long & 10 miles deep.
> 
> Kaybeck?
> 
> Nuttin'...


Well it is not like the federal government wants to protect our freedoms. It is very un-Canadian to have personal freedoms and be able to make discussions for ourselves. We would end up killing ourselves if we had too many choices.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> We would end up killing ourselves if we had too many choices.


<snort>

Just likes kids with scissors in our hands, running down the hall... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> As Little Potato prepares for the G20 Summit, China says it has banned all Canadian meat imports.
> 
> *Stop their ships from unloading at Canadian ports. But of course he won’t, because luckily most of the damage is being inflicted on the deplorable West.*


Bold mine...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

My question from all of this is whether Canadian taxpayers get their money back.

Not a chance in hell, Brian...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

HYPOCRISY: Twitter roasts Trudeau for dining with plastic cutlery



> Justin Trudeau has proven to us time and time again that he is the “do as I say, not as I do” prime minister. It doesn’t matter if it’s his high-flying, fuel-burning jet-setting vacations, or his frivolous budget reserved for water bottles, Trudeau has proven to Canadians that his promises are empty and his willingness to virtue-signal is high.
> 
> Two weeks ago, the Honorable Prime Minister officially announced that single-use plastics were on their way out. Plastic bags, straws, and cutlery were all proposed as items to be given the proverbial axe, as Trudeau proclaimed that Canada was starting its “science-based approach to establishing which harmful single-use plastics we will be eliminated” as of 2021.
> 
> Lo and behold, just a fortnight later, Team Trudeau’s social media team tweeted a damning photo of the PM at a lunch with plastic utensils.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Wait! Any Kaybeck contractors involved in this? Say, SNC Lavalin, f'rinstance?

Cost of Canadian navy warship project increases to $70B, according to new PBO estimate



> The cost of the Canadian navy’s new surface combatant ships has further increased because of delays and changes in the size of the ship, according to a new report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer.
> 
> The PBO puts the latest cost estimate of the Canadian surface combatant ships at $70 billion, some $8 billion higher than its previous estimate from two years ago.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

#WelcomeToSuckerland



> January, 2017.
> 
> #WelcomeToCanada pic.twitter.com/47edRsHLJ5
> 
> — Justin Trudeau (@JustinTrudeau) January 28, 2017​
> 
> June, 2019.
> 
> City committee asked to approve $108M in hotel contracts for refugees. Via @SueAnnLevy. https://t.co/IttJrDakt7 #topoli pic.twitter.com/m2kCbplLHT
> 
> — Toronto Sun (@TheTorontoSun) June 26, 2019​


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> *That “whooshing” sound is Trudeau’s testicles racing to their hiding place.*
> 
> A pair of Chinese Su-30 fighter jets buzzed a Canadian warship Monday in international waters east of Shanghai, in the East China Sea. The formidable twin-tail Russian-built strike aircraft flew within 300 metres of HMCS Regina, screaming past about 300 metres above the water.
> 
> It was the first close encounter between a Chinese warplane and a Royal Canadian Navy warship.​


Bold mine.

Justa Turnip has testicles? :yikes:


----------



## eMacMan

Going into the Canada Day weekend, is a great time to share this article.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...is-indisputably-better-than-the-united-states


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> Going into the Canada Day weekend, is a great time to share this article.
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...is-indisputably-better-than-the-united-states


That was funny. I'm quite lucky to have been born Canadian. Places like Europe or the U.S. are great for vacations, but are no substitute for home.


----------



## eMacMan

Beej said:


> That was funny. I'm quite lucky to have been born Canadian. Places like Europe or the U.S. are great for vacations, but are no substitute for home.


I am Canadian by choice.


----------



## SINC

Crooked Liberal bastards get away with another SNC Lavalin illegal move. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sn...ada-elections-1.5114537?__vfz=medium=sharebar


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> I am Canadian by choice.


Me too. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## 18m2

I'm confused.

Our indigenous Canadians mostly live in substandard conditions and fight addictions and health issues brought about by their situation. Most receive government assistance at a higher rate than other non-indigenous residents.

What confuses me are the stories in the news media about various tribes wanting to "buy into" the TM pipeline which, given the fact most indigenous Canadians don't have a lot of disposable income or assets I ask, where is the money coming from to buy into the pipeline?

Banks? Maybe some will be willing to loan some money with little collateral.

The Government? 

Whoa!

Didn't the Government already shell out billions to buy out Kinder Morgan Energy Partners? Sounds to me like we are now going to give indigenous Canadians a few billion so they can give it back to the Government.


----------



## Macfury

In most cases, "buying into" involves ceding land rights to allow the pipeline to cross their territory. In exchange for the concession, they buy into the project.



18m2 said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Our indigenous Canadians mostly live in substandard conditions and fight addictions and health issues brought about by their situation. Most receive government assistance at a higher rate than other non-indigenous residents.
> 
> What confuses me are the stories in the news media about various tribes wanting to "buy into" the TM pipeline which, given the fact most indigenous Canadians don't have a lot of disposable income or assets I ask, where is the money coming from to buy into the pipeline?
> 
> Banks? Maybe some will be willing to loan some money with little collateral.
> 
> The Government?
> 
> Whoa!
> 
> Didn't the Government already shell out billions to buy out Kinder Morgan Energy Partners? Sounds to me like we are now going to give indigenous Canadians a few billion so they can give it back to the Government.


----------



## eMacMan

18m2 said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Our indigenous Canadians mostly live in substandard conditions and fight addictions and health issues brought about by their situation. Most receive government assistance at a higher rate than other non-indigenous residents.
> 
> What confuses me are the stories in the news media about various tribes wanting to "buy into" the TM pipeline which, given the fact most indigenous Canadians don't have a lot of disposable income or assets I ask, where is the money coming from to buy into the pipeline?
> 
> Banks? Maybe some will be willing to loan some money with little collateral.
> 
> The Government?
> 
> Whoa!
> 
> Didn't the Government already shell out billions to buy out Kinder Morgan Energy Partners? Sounds to me like we are now going to give indigenous Canadians a few billion so they can give it back to the Government.





Macfury said:


> In most cases, "buying into" involves ceding land rights to allow the pipeline to cross their territory. In exchange for the concession, they buy into the project.


Except this is twinning over an existing route so very little ceding required. Certainly not $6.9 Billion. 

That said Canada has been marginally better than the US at honoring treaties. Of course the US has seen very few treaties it did not strive to break, so that's a pretty low bar for Canada to clear. Even so our home and native population still has some very legitimate beefs, so if they pull this off more power to them.


----------



## Beej

Was looking into suicide statistics after seeing yet another "crazy entitled young person" tweet, and I noticed a couple major differences between Canada and U.S.

Canada:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl...2,layout2,layout2,layout3&vectorDisplay=false

11-13 suicides per 100,000 for ages 15-24, and 11 for all ages as of 2017. The numbers are similar in 2001, up or down a by 1, depending on the age category.

U.S.:
https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

14 suicides for ages 15-24, and 14 for all ages. The rates are up from 10 for ages 15-24, and 11 for all ages (separate source) in 2001. Also, almost all of the increase for ages 15-24 is since 2013 while, in Canada, the trend is less severe (and less consistent).

Any thoughts on what changed for the U.S. but less so for us? I know that labour markets have been quite different since 2008, but that seems insufficient as a reason.


----------



## Macfury

The ready availability of mental health services could be one factor. Wider availability of dangerous drugs could be another. Greater availability of firearms to complete the act could be a third.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> The ready availability of mental health services could be one factor. Wider availability of dangerous drugs could be another. Greater availability of firearms to complete the act could be a third.


Have these significantly changed over the years between Canada and the U.S.? Maybe they're more industrious with their dangerous drugs, and end up with wider availability.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What could possibly go wrong?

Justin Trudeau’s Canada: Drunk Backyarding



> The Trudeau government was warned repeatedly at committee that their new law was against the Charter but they passed it anyway.
> 
> “For a government who campaigned on evidence-based policy, it was shocking that this unconstitutional, and unnecessary law saw the light of day,” Spratt said.


Comments nail it, especially this one:



> Keep an eye open for opportunities.
> 
> Imagine what would happen if the local constabulary was advised that there where individuals exhibiting drunken behavior and cars coming and going at an event that just happens to be the same address as a liberal fundraiser.
> Wouldn’t matter a damn if anyone was charged, just the thought of them living by their own rules would be comforting enough.


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Related:

New drunk driving law causes confusion



> Imagine driving home from a hard day at work, pouring yourself a drink or two and then hearing a knock at the door more than an hour after you get home.
> 
> It’s the police.
> 
> They want a breath sample from you to prove that you did not drive home drunk.


More:



> Is this a realistic scenario?
> 
> ...
> 
> *That tweet sent plenty of tongues wagging and conjured up images of cops showing up at your home two hours after you stopped driving to demand a breath sample. Justice Canada calls that scenario a myth but they aren’t fully honest with that statement, either.*


Anybody who doesn't think the above scenario is coming soon to a town near you is a complete idiot...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Not that there's a shortage of reasons why one shouldn't vote for the international embarrassment. However, if yer keeping track...

Here's how Justin Trudeau promised change and didn't deliver



> Four years ago the Liberals came to power in part, based on promises that they’ve since broken, or thanks to pledges for progress that has yet to materialize.
> 
> From Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s troubled trips and ethical scandals, to reneged vows to balance the books and reform Canada’s electoral process, the last four years have not been without missteps. With Liberals heading to your doorsteps this summer seeking a second term, here are the ways that “real change” wasn’t delivered.


Related:

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!



> There went that Security Council seat.


Yeppers...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Oh, Shiny Chi-Minister!



> So the Former Ambassador to China tells the Chinese government that Trudeau’s govt will be “friendlier” to them than a Scheer CPC govt and he’d appreciate some “help” before the election. I swear this was a Veep episode this year. https://t.co/76Qx1VWxeH
> 
> — Lisa Raitt (@lraitt) July 10, 2019​


Related:

McCallum calls on China to interfere in Canada's election



> It’s a shocking statement, even for a man who made some shocking statements during his political career.
> 
> In an interview with the South China Morning Post, John McCallum said China should go easy on Canada over the Huawei case to help the Liberals in the coming election.
> 
> “Anything that is more negative against Canada will help the Conservatives, (who) are much less friendly to China than the Liberals,” McCallum told the news outlet on Monday.


Subtle. Real subtle...

Related, too:

Trudeau government worsens China crisis



> The diplomatic dispute between Canada and China is in its seventh month and seems to get worse with each passing week.
> 
> Two Canadian citizens — Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor — continue to face harsh conditions in a Chinese jail in a detention best described as diplomatic hostage-taking.
> 
> The economic impact of trade disruption with China has already cost the Canadian economy billions. The situation is bad and is made worse by the fact that Justin Trudeau appears to have had no plan from the start of this China Crisis. The Liberals have ignored countless suggestions from the Conservatives.


Related, 3.

Of course not...

Freeland says McCallum ‘does not speak’ for feds after explosive China interview



> Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland says Canada’s fired former ambassador to China “does not speak” for the government after he described offering advice to Chinese officials on how their attacks on Canada could influence the fall election to a newspaper.


Related, 4:

Conservatives ask CSIS to probe former envoy McCallum for election interference after China comments



> The Official Opposition is asking one of Canada’s spy agencies to investigate former Canadian ambassador to China John McCallum for possible election interference.
> 
> Deputy Conservative leader Lisa Raitt and public security critic Pierre Paul-Hus have written a letter to Canadian Security Intelligence Service director David Vigneault asking for a review of Mr. McCallum’s conduct.
> 
> The former ambassador, who was fired in January after he publicly waded into the Huawei extradition case, told a Hong Kong newspaper this week that he has warned Chinese officials that further sanctions against Canada over the arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou could help spur the election this fall of a Conservative government, which would be far less favourable to Beijing.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Then do precisely what China did & ban Chinese imports!

Right. Forgot. Nobody in the Federal Gov't with two brain cells to rub together. Or a spine...

Officials flagged 900 food items from China with 'problems' over two years



> Canadian inspectors intercepted nearly 900 food products from China over concerns about faulty labels, unmentioned allergens and harmful contaminants that included glass and metal between 2017 and early 2019, according to internal federal records.
> 
> The document provides an inside look at imports from China that caught the attention of officials for appearing to fall short of Canadian standards -- from gum balls with "extraneous" metal, to three-minute chow mein that contained an insect, to spicy octopus feet flagged for a "non-specific hazard."


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau cheers anti-pipeline activist as star Liberal candidate



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has found his Tzeporah Berman.
> 
> Two days before heading to Calgary for Stampede, he held hands high with anti-pipeline activist Steven Guilbeault, the Liberals’ new candidate in the Montreal riding of Laurier.
> 
> Guilbeault worked for Greenpeace and founded a Quebec advocacy group, Equiterre. He is a flat-out opponent of the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.
> 
> You’d think Guilbeault would be more at home as a candidate for the NDP or the Greens. But Laurier has been in NDP hands since 2011 and Trudeau wants it for the Liberals.
> 
> So there they were together, cheerily holding hands.


Woohoo!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

There goes that $600 million...

Canadian media refuses to attend Press Freedom scrum after Liberal minister denies access to two conservative journalists



> In a rare moment of media solidarity, Canadian news outlets threatened to boycott a press conference with Minister of Foreign Affairs Chrystia Freeland at the Global Conference for Media Freedom: London 2019 after the only two conservative journalists present were denied access to the scrum.
> 
> According to several accounts, reporters Andrew Lawton from True North, and Sheila Gunn Reid from The Rebel, were the only two Canadians barred from a media availability event with Minister Freeland.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Curtailing Speech a Slippery Slope



> Canada is mulling a new approach to monitoring and curtailing hate speech online. Although a reasonable and prudent proposition at first glance, there is a real risk such a move could undermine our democracy. Aside from the logistical difficulties that come with enforcement, curtailment of speech can produce unintended consequences that can be more divisive than hate speech itself.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Well, color me surprised...

Shocka! Illegal cannabis getting even cheaper, as legal gets costlier, StatsCan says



> Statistics Canada’s quarterly report on cannabis prices suggests the cost chasm between legal and illegal versions of the drug is wide, and getting wider.
> 
> The data agency reported Wednesday that the price gap between the two types of cannabis is as wide as $4.72 a gram, on average.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Tight-lipped Trudeau hits Calgary, says nothing



> Vintage Trudeau.
> 
> He’s talking about you.
> 
> “The people who are angry about the carbon price do not spend any time saying ‘thank you for the TMX,’ by the way.”
> 
> You scratch your head. How thankful should carbon tax-hating Albertans be for the prime minister’s liking?
> 
> How much gratitude should we show for the pipeline approval when he also backs a tanker ban off B.C.’s north coast and a law making it almost impossible to get future pipelines built?


More:



> So Trudeau hits Calgary. His 24 hours in Calgary happen in a carefully managed prime ministerial safe space in a small part of the inner city.
> 
> No way is he going to the Stampede because God knows what somebody would say. The grandstand would be full of boo birds.


So where does he hide out? In a dark corner of the city with his Prog voters where he won't have his fragile ego get fractured. Pussy...

I was at Mark's Work Wearhouse last week. Saw a pair of socks I thought I should pick up & send to him, collect. They had corn dogs with mustard printed on them. Thought they were rather fitting...


----------



## FeXL

Blame Something



> The evacuees staying at the University of Regina residences are under duress and struggling in an unfamiliar environment, said Saskatchewan’s fire safety commissioner Duane McKay after several disturbances and three incidents on the campus that led to criminal charges.
> 
> About 420 people have arrived in Regina from the Pikangikum First Nation, a fly-in community in northwestern Ontario. It’s still not clear when they will be able to go home.
> 
> Saskatchewan’s government pledged to accept as many as 2,000 evacuees last week as fire threatened the community. McKay said there has been “a number of incidents” that have occurred since their arrival.
> 
> Some of the disturbances involved violence and damage to the residences, but McKay said nothing amounted to “large-scale destruction.”
> 
> “These individuals are coming from a very remote community, they’re in a very strange environment,” he said.​
> I blame the soft bigotry of low expectations.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Pretty quiet around here too.


----------



## FeXL

Yep. No Prog lies, Prog BS, Prog whining, Prog anything. Shaping up to be a helluva summer! :lmao:



Freddie_Biff said:


> Pretty quiet around here too.


----------



## Macfury

fexl said:


> yep. No prog lies, prog bs, prog whining, prog anything. Shaping up to be a helluva summer! :lmao:


+1.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> Back in the Family.
> 
> Among the 60 people who gathered at a downtown Ottawa hotel for a day and a half this month to discuss the Liberal government’s campaign for re-election was *Gerry Butts*, the senior adviser and close friend of Justin Trudeau who left the Prime Minister’s Office five months ago in the midst of Trudeau’s painful spring.​


Quelle surprise...

First comment very interesting.


----------



## eMacMan

Hey if it works for MacroShaft why not SNC Lavalin?
https://www.seattlepi.com/business/...-25-million-to-settle-corruption-14113600.php



> NEW YORK (AP) — Microsoft is paying more than $25 million to settle federal corruption charges involving a bribery scheme in Hungary and other foreign offices.
> 
> The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission said Microsoft will pay about $16.6 million to settle charges that it violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. While the case centered on Hungary, the SEC said it also found improprieties at Microsoft offices in Saudi Arabia, Thailand and Turkey.
> 
> The Justice Department said Microsoft will also pay an $8.75 million criminal fine stemming from the Hungarian bid-rigging and bribery scheme.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Too many Chiefs, not enough, uh...



> Driving down Highway 401 in southern Ontario, with the FM dial tuned to 87.9, the 1990s-era rap music fades into an ad, *offering a free joint with every purchase over $20* between midnight and 4:20 a.m. at the Pot Shoppe.
> 
> "Don't forget, we have free coffee for the driver and our famous Pot Shoppe slushies at half-price for the passenger," the ad says.* "THC-infused slushies — just a little more brain freeze."*​
> At last count there were over 4 dozen pot shops on the Rez.


Related (just relace Cali with CA):


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau's promise to replace fighter jets is far over the horizon



> The announcement from the Trudeau Liberals was bold but false; “the government is acquiring 88 advanced fighter jets.”
> 
> No we’re not, actually — all the government did on Tuesday was announce the start of a new process to one day acquire fighter jets… in about 6 years.
> 
> “Our government is delivering on its promise to replace Canada’s fighter jet fleet through an open and transparent competition,” said Carla Qualtrough, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Accessibility.
> 
> I’ve lost count of how many times this process has started, but the push to replace the CF-18 fighter jets began in 1997 under Liberal PM Jean Chretien.
> 
> That’s when Canada joined the Joint Strike Fighter program.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau government tells Canadians to believe CBC to tell them what fake news is as state broadcaster makes fake news



> Minister of Democratic Institutions (a Soviet-style moniker devised by the Trudeau government) Karina Gould recently espoused confidence in the state broadcaster the CBC to mother Canadians by telling them what information they can and cannot believe.
> 
> ...
> 
> Shortly before Gould tweeted CBC’s biased article on fake news, which propagated the childish notion that the dark arts of disinformation only comes from the right of the political spectrum, the CBC itself published false information on tech giants censoring conservative individuals and information.


Yer tax $$$ at work...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I post this here simply because of the laughing stock MSM observations on Justa Turd.

Boris Johnson’s Britain



> Eric Sorensen: Richard, we only have a few seconds and I just want to get you, just in these few seconds, to say whether you think that Prime Minister Trudeau could be out of step with Johnson and Trump because he is so unlike them?
> 
> Richard Ayre: No. I think actually, Boris Johnson and Trudeau have much more in common than you might think. *They’re both clever. They’re both bright.*


Bold mine.

:yikes:

Juthdin? Clever _and_ bright?

Like a burned out lightbulb...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

It’s Probably Nothing



> I don’t really like being the bearer of bad news, but this has me a bit rattled at the moment, and very concerned for what may be in the offing for the Canadian economy.
> 
> Raw material prices do not fall at an annual rate of -9.2% unless something larger is going on. These results were released about 30 minutes ago. I’ll wait for someone smarter than me, like David Rosenberg of Gluskin Sheiff to comment, but here’s the link to the report: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/190731/dq190731b-eng.htm?HPA=1
> 
> That’s a pretty good contraction.
> 
> As I sit here and stare at it, isn’t this somewhat to be expected as the underlying price structure of commodities gets shredded under the weight of tariffs. Any form of financial engineering associated with a commodity would be tied directly to the underlying borrowing to pay for the contract. A tariff taxes that loan directly, not the underlying cost of extracting/growing the good. Canada may be the canary in the coal mine for what should appear, globally, since all commodities are basically the same around the world, like iron ore or crude oil, the add ons being refinement, storage, & transport.
> 
> I may have misunderestimated how much financialization was baked into the pie, which would be the outlier.
> 
> Heads up, might get stormy.​


Comments salient.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Echo...echo...echo...echo....


----------



## Macfury

If you don't understand the content Freddie, ask...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> If you don't understand the content Freddie, ask...




My comment is about FeXL spending all this energy talking to himself.


----------



## Macfury

He's not talking to himself! He's talking to me for certain... and you're reading too!


----------



## FeXL

Yuk it up, Freddie.

Watch the page count. It keeps on increasing, at a rate far higher than merely me posting. Not many may be responding but many are reading.



Freddie_Biff said:


> My comment is about FeXL spending all this energy talking to himself.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Yuk it up, Freddie.
> 
> Watch the page count. It keeps on increasing, at a rate far higher than merely me posting. Not many may be responding but many are reading.


Pretty impressive. Even with our help, Freddies' "Progressive Thread" is dying a miserable death at the bottom of the thread heap.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> He's not talking to himself! He's talking to me for certain... and you're reading too!




Actually I’m not. FeXL’s comments always show up to me as spoilers. Once in a while I might click on one to see if he’s posted anything interesting, and as usual, he hasn’t. That’s why it seems like he’s talking to himself, because he’ll keep on posting, one after the other, whether anyone’s reading them or not.


----------



## Macfury

Thanks for supporting the thread!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Actually I’m not. FeXL’s comments always show up to me as spoilers. Once in a while I might click on one to see if he’s posted anything interesting, and as usual, he hasn’t. That’s why it seems like he’s talking to himself, because he’ll keep on posting, one after the other, whether anyone’s reading them or not.


----------



## CubaMark

*Conservative Senator Is an Active Member of a Far-Right Facebook Group
Three Conservative MPs were also part of the group, but said they were added without their knowledge.*


----------



## Macfury

I like the way you've scouted out the peripheral social media connections of Liberal and NDP politicians as well, CM. Good work!


----------



## wonderings

CubaMark said:


> *Conservative Senator Is an Active Member of a Far-Right Facebook Group
> Three Conservative MPs were also part of the group, but said they were added without their knowledge.*


Sounds like they were added without their knowledge 

Taken from the linked article 
“It is relatively easy to add Facebook friends to a group without their consent”

Not sure what the issue is here unless of course we are saying guilty till proven innocent.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Yeah. And?

Our esteemed trust fund baby leader groped a reporter in BC. Where was your outrage when that news became public knowledge? Perhaps that wasn't on _Mother Jones_? Or maybe, just maybe, you're in full agrement with the Idiot when he justified his actions by noting, "Some people experience things differently"?



CubaMark said:


> Conservative Senator Is an Active Member of a Far-Right Facebook Group


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> Not sure what the issue is here unless of course we are saying guilty till proven innocent.


That's precisely what _we're_ saying...

The hilarious thing here is that, once again, there is no shortage of legitimate criticism that can be levelled at Canadian politicians of all stripes. Yet, The Bigot continues to muckrake in the sewer rather than expend any energy examining the real issues.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Why? 'Cause The Spawn doesn't want to burn his chances for a position at the UN...

Why hasn't this latest scandal persuaded Canada to cut off the UNRWA?



> *In theory*, UNRWA exists to provide support to Palestinian refugees: food, shelter, education, health care. The organization has become a highly politicized vehicle that promotes the dream nurtured among Palestinians to destroy Israel and return to their ancestral homes.
> 
> Israel, and many observers around the world, see UNRWA instead a self-sustaining bureaucratic fiefdom, serving the whims of its executives first, at best, and outright hostile to Israel (and sympathetic to its terrorist attackers) at worst.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Climate Barbie



> Fishing is hard!
> 
> Here’s the Minister, fishing from the rocks in Iqualit in heels and there’s no line in the fishing rod. How much did we have to pay for the photographer to get this piece of Liberal nonsense? @TrueNorthCentre #cdnpoli https://t.co/FHyi76J1rr
> 
> — Leo Knight (@primetimecrime) August 3, 2019​


I'll guaran-damn-tee it cost taxpayers thousands.

Fake fishing from the fake pushing fake Globull Warming. How appropriate...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Post after post with no one responding. Sad.


----------



## Macfury

Are you daft, Freddie boy? There were two responses yesterday. A little jealousy because your threads are dead in the water, perhaps?


----------



## FeXL

Yet the post count continues to rise.

Curious, that...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Post after post with no one responding. Sad.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Are you daft, Freddie boy? There were two responses yesterday. A little jealousy because your threads are dead in the water, perhaps?



I see four responses in a row from the same person. Looks like he’s talking to himself, a pattern common in many of the threads he contributes to. You’re daft if you can’t see it.


----------



## Macfury

Yup, right after two responses from other members, and just before the responses from you!

The thread gets a lot of view too. "The Progressive thread"? Dead in the water!



Freddie_Biff said:


> I see four responses in a row from the same person. Looks like he’s talking to himself, a pattern common in many of the threads he contributes to. You’re daft if you can’t see it.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Yup, right after two responses from other members, and just before the responses from you!
> 
> 
> 
> The thread gets a lot of view too. "The Progressive thread"? Dead in the water!



What are you? The goon that runs interference for FeXL? Pathetic.


----------



## Macfury

I didn't even mention FeXL. Someone may be fixated on him, but it looks like it's all on you. 



> What are you? The goon that runs interference for FeXL? Pathetic.


----------



## FeXL

This moonbat is still flying around?

The Crazy Old Aunt In The Attic Of Canadian Politics



> This is precisely why I have said that the oil companies have committed CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY! All the factors are there: KNOWLEDGE of the truth and DELIBERATE action to CONCEAL (“becloud”) the truth to save their profits while preparing to protect themselves! Nuremberg worthy! https://t.co/cvc39UKq7z
> 
> — Kim Campbell (@AKimCampbell) August 3, 2019​
> Her claim to fame as the Canada’s First Female Prime Minister is how she drove a million women to vote for Preston Manning.


Comments salient:



> Ah, Kim! Campbell….. the only PM in Canadian history who could make Prinz Dummkopf look like a candidate for Mensa membership….. Then again, she’s a Lotuslander, so what else would one expect from her.
> 
> ...
> 
> That can’t be her real Twitter. ???
> 
> Just looking through it, she re-tweeted Shaun King. (aka Talcum X)
> … and a bunch of other far left progressives.
> 
> ...
> 
> And this moron is on the panel that chooses judges for Justin.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Freddie, the only time anybody comments on one of your posts is to point out the stupidity of it. Which, BTW, occurs with a fair amount of regularity...



Freddie_Biff said:


> What are you? The goon that runs interference for FeXL? Pathetic.


----------



## Macfury

Just hearing from Kim Campbell is more than I want to experience today.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Just hearing from Kim Campbell is more than I want to experience today.


Yeah, sorry.

I kinda feel the same about her as you do about Barry.

I didn't even know she was still around.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin & Company rides again...



> Spreading the message... *"Everyone I don't like is Hitler"...*
> 
> _ Liberal immigration minister Ahmed Hussen isn’t commenting about remarks he made *at a Somali independence festival* where he suggested Liberal opponents are racist Islamophobes who “*dance with white supremacists.*”_​
> Oh, it gets better... by which I mean worse...
> 
> _ Hussen has not responded to The Post Millennial’s questions about his statements; in particular, he *would not specify when Islamophobia was considered the norm in Canada*, or the basis for his claim that Conservatives are “*dancing with white supremacists*”._​
> Wait a minute... Ahmed Hussen, Ahmed Hussen... *that sounds so familiar*...
> 
> _ Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen provided a briefing to members of *the African-Canadian community* at a Toronto barbecue establishment that court documents have identified it as a known hangout for members of the notorious *Nigerian-based Black Axe criminal syndicate*._​


Ah knows, ah knows... Rascis!


----------



## Beej

Update on the ball waxing thing.

Heated Debate w/ Jessica Yaniv: Trans Predator
https://t.co/mxc2YOSRdR

Not that heated, and a lengthy discussion of varying insight. One interesting part is around 54 minutes. It's about immigrants and their socially conservative values being discriminatory. Which protected group gets more protected? You decide.


----------



## FeXL

Canada’s Populist Party Introduces Trumpian Immigration Plan



> Donald Trump’s influence has crossed the border into Canada. Last week, the populist People’s Party of Canada unveiled its immigration plan. The plan echoes the America First agenda and would provide a solid immigration model for American patriots to imitate.
> 
> The PPC’s plan would reduce immigration, combat multiculturalism, focus on high-skilled immigrants, and emphasize assimilation.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada could be hit by fight between Washington and Beijing



> “Due to our ongoing dispute with China and China’s sanctions against us, I don’t think this will positively impact on Canadian agricultural exports to China,” Burton said.
> 
> “They’ll be sourcing their soybeans from Brazil.”
> 
> As Canada continues to take an economic beating from China, Burton says there seems to be little the government is willing to do to help free Spavor and Kovrig or improve trade conditions.
> 
> “*We lack the political will to take this matter more seriously*,” Burton said.


Bold mine.

Lacking political will? First off, we lack anybody with an actual spine. Second, we lack anybody who gives a damn about western Canadians, whom these issues affect most. Third, political will is down somewhere near the bottom of the heap of issues this country has.


----------



## SINC

An interesting read:

SHAKY LEGAL GROUND IS CRUMBLING UNDER THE FEDERAL CARBON TAX LEGISLATION

https://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/sha...hFmzocvpLuFZpLSRvSKzVGoXGi0CK8Ik3jvpvG62AHvwY


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> An interesting read:


Very.

As to why? "~Becauth ith's 2015!"

That'd be saweet if the SOC throws this back down.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Because We Admire Their Basic Dictatorship



> Bio-warfare experts question why Canada was sending lethal viruses to China
> 
> Last month, an acclaimed NML scientist — Xiangguo Qiu — was reportedly escorted out of the lab along with her husband, another biologist, and members of her research team. The agency said it was investigating an “administrative issue,” and had referred a possible policy breach to the RCMP. Little more has been said about the affair.​
> Reassuring.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Justin Trudeau’s ministers of misinformation



> What ever happened to cracking down on misinformation online to ensure we had a clean and fair election?
> 
> I mean it was only a few months ago that Trudeau’s Minister of Democratic Institutions, Karina Gould, was warning about the dangers of people getting the wrong information on social media – as reported by CBC only last January.
> 
> “These platforms have been manipulated to spread disinformation and create confusion, which has the potential to disengage people in the democratic process. We are concerned about the risk online manipulation poses to the integrity of our election,” said Gould.
> 
> And of course when she was appointed to her role in January 2017, the PM made clear that he wanted his minister to be open and honest.
> 
> “We have committed to an open, honest government that is accountable to Canadians, lives up to the highest ethical standards,” Trudeau’s mandate letter to Gould reads.
> 
> So why then is Gould spreading outright lies on Twitter?
> 
> That may seem like strong language, it would definitely be ruled unparliamentary, but make no mistake, as I will show you, Gould is lying.


Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

Hey, where's my Priapus drivin' pal, Piggy, been lately? Pullin' his pud and readin' the polls over in Progville?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Poll: Nearly Two-Thirds Of Canadians Disapprove Of Justin Trudeau After Scandal



> A new poll finds Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s disapproval rate is rising, and may be attributed to Trudeau’s role in a scandal involving the engineering company SNC-Lavalin.
> 
> The Angus Reid Institute found that 47 percent of Canadians strongly disapprove of Trudeau’s performance in office. Together, those who disapprove and strongly disapprove comprise 65 percent of those polled, or nearly two-thirds.


Woohoo!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Such a sparkling conversationalist.


----------



## SINC

Trudeau government trying to cover its tracks

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...Jvz_-Ytqb0WBS5KAItknD8lrcI_jtPSBhh0TPnG9DTYIs


----------



## Macfury

Hey FeXL, your number one fan wants you to sign a print-out of his Tapatalk screen shot!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hey FeXL, your number one fan wants you to sign a print-out of his Tapatalk screen shot!


Done!


----------



## Macfury

I'll bet he wishes there was a bit of an echo in here now...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Done!




That was even kind of funny!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Expectations Unexpectedly Confounded



> The experts are perplexed.
> 
> The Canadian economy unexpectedly shed jobs for a second straight month, pushing up the unemployment rate and increasing the likelihood that the country’s central bank may need to ease policy to provide support.
> The country lost 24,000 jobs last month, according to Statistics Canada. That is the worst month for job creation since last August and confounded expectations for a gain of 15,000 jobs following the 2,200 decline in June.​


How was that s'pose to go? Trudles was going to grow the economy from the ass outwards?


----------



## SINC

Yep, one can only hope.


----------



## SINC

Without a doubt.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

More Pavilions At Folkfest



> This just in from your Immigration and Refugee Board:
> 
> … the Immigration and Refugee Board last week ordered officials to free [alleged ISIS supporter] Hamdan on 25 conditions.​


First comment nails it.


----------



## eMacMan

First of all I still think Gomeshi is total slime, however legislation passed in response to a particular incident is almost always both rushed and deeply flawed. True of both the Harpoon and in this case the Hairdoo. 
https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...onal/wcm/2edc38c0-4eea-44cc-a53c-171811916d25
For a pleasant change a judge was able to see that and act accordingly.



> “In my opinion, the Crown arguments do not address adequately the effect of disclosure to the complainant that may allow the complainant to prepare for trial ready to explain and minimize inconsistencies, omissions, additions or other modifications in giving their evidence,” Judge Bruce Henning wrote in his decision, which came down on Aug. 1 and is not yet posted online.
> 
> “The evidence of a complainant is almost always crucial and central in any trial relating to sexual assault. Mandatory disclosure to the prime witness in a prosecution reaches to the centre and integrity of the trial process in such cases.”
> 
> Henning concluded this aspect of C-51 violates section 7 of the Charter (the right to make a full answer and defence) and section 11 (the right to a fair trial), and could not be justified as a reasonable limit. He said the effect of the new law is to “seriously limit an accused person’s ability to effectively challenge the veracity of a complainant.”


----------



## FUXL

*Macleans*

End of summer. How are all the hurting Albertins Feelin'?


----------



## SINC

Try a poll not conducted by the bought and paid for Liberal CBC:

*Majority of Canadians want change in Ottawa, 37% say they’d vote Conservative: Ipsos*

https://globalnews.ca/news/5502690/andrew-scheer-justin-trudeau-prime-minister-ipsos-poll/

*Opinion polling for the 2019 Canadian federal election*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

*Understanding all these wild federal election polls*

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/understanding-all-these-wild-federal-election-polls/


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Piggy!

Ya missed this one.



FUXL said:


> End of summer. How are all the hurting Albertins Feelin'?


----------



## FUXL

SINC said:


> Try a poll not conducted by the bought and paid for Liberal CBC:
> 
> *Majority of Canadians want change in Ottawa, 37% say they’d vote Conservative: Ipsos*
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/5502690/andrew-scheer-justin-trudeau-prime-minister-ipsos-poll/
> 
> *Opinion polling for the 2019 Canadian federal election*
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls
> 
> *Understanding all these wild federal election polls*
> 
> https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/understanding-all-these-wild-federal-election-polls/


Hey Ass wipe. It’s from Macleans. Read much?


----------



## FeXL

Hey, $h!t stain, no kidding.

Yet one more Prog media outlet bought & paid for by Justa Turd.



FUXL said:


> Hey Ass wipe. It’s from Macleans. Read much?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau finally pays up part of his refugee bill



> Justin Trudeau was like the deadbeat dad that wanted praise for finally paying his child support bills.
> 
> The PM showed up at the Parkdale Intercultural Association in Toronto’s west end on Monday to announce that the federal government was giving over more money to fund legal aid in Ontario when it comes to immigration and refugee cases.
> 
> “I’m not overly happy about the announcement we are about to make,” Trudeau said. “The reality is we shouldn’t be having to make this announcement.”
> 
> He’s right, the federal government shouldn’t have to make the announcement that they are funding their responsibilities rather than sticking it to the province.


----------



## FUXL

*Latest from la grande dame of Canadian police journalism - Chantale Hebert*

Read and weep Albertan separatists -

Mon Aug 12 13:11:00 EDT 2019
MONTREAL—Canada’s two main parties may be tied in voting intentions at the national level, but the pre-election season has so far been kinder to Justin Trudeau’s Liberals than to Andrew Scheer’s Conservatives.
The subtext of the national polls is that the first are doing better than the numbers suggest while the second are running in place.
Much of the credit for the restoring of a modest Liberal edge is owed not so much to the strategic genius of the incumbents as to some chronic weaknesses of their main rivals.
The concentration of Conservative party support in the Prairies is a big part of that party’s problem. It masks a less-than-optimal performance in the larger voting markets of central Canada. But other factors are also in play.
The competition for government remains a two-way battle between the Liberals and the Conservatives.
In the past, a strong NDP has tended to be a winning condition for the Conservatives. It was a key element in the majority victories of Brian Mulroney in 1988 and Stephen Harper in 2011.
In the reverse, the NDP was at low ebb for much of the Jean Chrétien decade. 
Short of a dramatic shift in New Democrat fortunes Scheer will not be able to count on Jagmeet Singh to bleed the Liberals on his behalf in October.
In B.C. where the NDP elected its second-largest provincial contingent in 2015, the Green party is breathing down its neck.
In Quebec where the party under Thomas Mulcair and Jack Layton elected its largest contingent of MPs in the last two elections, the NDP is polling in single digits, and fighting for fourth place against the Greens.
Now that the Bloc Québécois has gotten its act together, non-Liberal Quebec voters are more likely to rediscover the sovereigntist party than to give Singh a second look.
The Liberals remain the dominant force in Quebec. Two recent polls — Abacus and Léger Marketing — pegged Trudeau’s lead in his home-province at more than 10 points.
At the same time, potential clouds on the Quebec/Ottawa horizon as a result of the arrival of a less Liberal-friendly provincial government have failed to materialize.
By all indications, Coalition Avenir Quebec’s François Legault is not poised to rain on the Liberals’ election parade and Trudeau is not going out of his way to give his Quebec counterpart a reason to do so.
The battle over the CAQ’s contentious securalism law seems destined to play out in the courts for the foreseeable future.
A potential federal-provincial showdown over immigration policy has at least for now been averted. Under pressure from the Quebec business community, Legault has to juggle his promise to reduce the province’s immigration intake with increasingly widespread labour shortages.
This summer saw the first test of the process put in place last spring to give the Quebec government input in the filling of Quebec vacancies on the Supreme Court.
Sources in both capitals say the prime minister’s choice of justice Nicholas Kasirer reflected the premier’s preference.
Legault may be a small-c conservative but as the premier of a province where the issue of climate change is top-of-mind he has little to gain from associating with a pro-pipeline anti-carbon tax Conservative party. The last thing the Quebec premier wants is to have to manage a pipeline backlash on the first watch in government of his party.
He has instructed his MNAs to stay out of the federal fray.
There are some bright spots in the Conservative party Quebec picture. At 24 per cent in the Léger and Abacus polls, the party’s score is eight points higher than its last election result. And the Conservatives have a fighting chance to take out their right-wing nemesis Maxime Bernier in his Beauce riding.
Harper and Chrétien secured majority governments with minimal Quebec support. But that was back in the days when a plurality of Quebecers voted for parties like the BQ or the NDP that kept the province on the sidelines of the battle between the Conservatives and the Liberals.
For the first time since the eighties Trudeau’s party is poised to enter a federal election with a solid edge on the competition in Quebec.
And if it has been possible to form a federal government without winning Quebec in the past, doing so while also losing Ontario is essentially a non-starter.
In Canada’s largest province, Scheer remains overshadowed by his cumbersome Queen’s Park ally Doug Ford. The latter’s association with the federal Conservatives is not only toxic for the former in Ontario. For worse rather than for better, Ford’s profile nationally is higher than that of the federal leader.
None of the above is meant to suggest that the Liberals have a second victory in the bag — far from it. But with the official launch of the campaign a little more than a month away the election — on balance — is again theirs to lose.
Chantal Hébert is a columnist based in Ottawa covering politics. Follow her on Twitter: @ChantalHbert


----------



## SINC

Meh. More propaganda from a CBC affiliated so-called analyst bought and paid for (CBC/Torstar) by the Turdeau Liberals.


----------



## eMacMan

Wow trying to imply that Chantele is a credible source. That's a pretty major stretch. Her knowledge outside of Quebec is marginal and outside of Quebec/Ottawa pretty much non-existent.

Truth is both major and most satellite parties should be put out to pasture, or better yet dropped off on ice floes.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Read and weep Albertan separatists -
> 
> 
> 
> Mon Aug 12 13:11:00 EDT 2019
> 
> MONTREAL—Canada’s two main parties may be tied in voting intentions at the national level, but the pre-election season has so far been kinder to Justin Trudeau’s Liberals than to Andrew Scheer’s Conservatives.
> 
> The subtext of the national polls is that the first are doing better than the numbers suggest while the second are running in place.
> 
> Much of the credit for the restoring of a modest Liberal edge is owed not so much to the strategic genius of the incumbents as to some chronic weaknesses of their main rivals.
> 
> The concentration of Conservative party support in the Prairies is a big part of that party’s problem. It masks a less-than-optimal performance in the larger voting markets of central Canada. But other factors are also in play.
> 
> The competition for government remains a two-way battle between the Liberals and the Conservatives.
> 
> In the past, a strong NDP has tended to be a winning condition for the Conservatives. It was a key element in the majority victories of Brian Mulroney in 1988 and Stephen Harper in 2011.
> 
> In the reverse, the NDP was at low ebb for much of the Jean Chrétien decade.
> 
> Short of a dramatic shift in New Democrat fortunes Scheer will not be able to count on Jagmeet Singh to bleed the Liberals on his behalf in October.
> 
> In B.C. where the NDP elected its second-largest provincial contingent in 2015, the Green party is breathing down its neck.
> 
> In Quebec where the party under Thomas Mulcair and Jack Layton elected its largest contingent of MPs in the last two elections, the NDP is polling in single digits, and fighting for fourth place against the Greens.
> 
> Now that the Bloc Québécois has gotten its act together, non-Liberal Quebec voters are more likely to rediscover the sovereigntist party than to give Singh a second look.
> 
> The Liberals remain the dominant force in Quebec. Two recent polls — Abacus and Léger Marketing — pegged Trudeau’s lead in his home-province at more than 10 points.
> 
> At the same time, potential clouds on the Quebec/Ottawa horizon as a result of the arrival of a less Liberal-friendly provincial government have failed to materialize.
> 
> By all indications, Coalition Avenir Quebec’s François Legault is not poised to rain on the Liberals’ election parade and Trudeau is not going out of his way to give his Quebec counterpart a reason to do so.
> 
> The battle over the CAQ’s contentious securalism law seems destined to play out in the courts for the foreseeable future.
> 
> A potential federal-provincial showdown over immigration policy has at least for now been averted. Under pressure from the Quebec business community, Legault has to juggle his promise to reduce the province’s immigration intake with increasingly widespread labour shortages.
> 
> This summer saw the first test of the process put in place last spring to give the Quebec government input in the filling of Quebec vacancies on the Supreme Court.
> 
> Sources in both capitals say the prime minister’s choice of justice Nicholas Kasirer reflected the premier’s preference.
> 
> Legault may be a small-c conservative but as the premier of a province where the issue of climate change is top-of-mind he has little to gain from associating with a pro-pipeline anti-carbon tax Conservative party. The last thing the Quebec premier wants is to have to manage a pipeline backlash on the first watch in government of his party.
> 
> He has instructed his MNAs to stay out of the federal fray.
> 
> There are some bright spots in the Conservative party Quebec picture. At 24 per cent in the Léger and Abacus polls, the party’s score is eight points higher than its last election result. And the Conservatives have a fighting chance to take out their right-wing nemesis Maxime Bernier in his Beauce riding.
> 
> Harper and Chrétien secured majority governments with minimal Quebec support. But that was back in the days when a plurality of Quebecers voted for parties like the BQ or the NDP that kept the province on the sidelines of the battle between the Conservatives and the Liberals.
> 
> For the first time since the eighties Trudeau’s party is poised to enter a federal election with a solid edge on the competition in Quebec.
> 
> And if it has been possible to form a federal government without winning Quebec in the past, doing so while also losing Ontario is essentially a non-starter.
> 
> In Canada’s largest province, Scheer remains overshadowed by his cumbersome Queen’s Park ally Doug Ford. The latter’s association with the federal Conservatives is not only toxic for the former in Ontario. For worse rather than for better, Ford’s profile nationally is higher than that of the federal leader.
> 
> None of the above is meant to suggest that the Liberals have a second victory in the bag — far from it. But with the official launch of the campaign a little more than a month away the election — on balance — is again theirs to lose.
> 
> Chantal Hébert is a columnist based in Ottawa covering politics. Follow her on Twitter: @ChantalHbert




Sounds plausible. Chantal knows a thing or two.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Sounds plausible. Chantal knows a thing or two.


Only if you think Canada has only two provinces. Ottawa and Quebec.

You will note she pretty much ignored the entire rest of the nation, an arrogance shared by the Turdites.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Only if you think Canada has only two provinces. Ottawa and Quebec.
> 
> You will note she pretty much ignored the entire rest of the nation, an arrogance shared by the Turdites.




Arrogant, perhaps, but true if you want to win elections. Ontario and Quebec contain more than half of Canada’s total population. You can’t win a federal election without one or both of those provinces. Alberta could be totally blue and the Liberals can easily win, as you may have noticed in 2015. Ideally you need to have some interests in common between the west and the east though.


----------



## FeXL

Riddle me this, Freddie: What does that article have anything to do with Alberta separation?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sounds plausible. Chantal knows a thing or two.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Riddle me this, Freddie: What does that article have anything to do with Alberta separation?




They’re mentioned in the title, but that’s about it. I would agree the article is misleadingly titled.


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> Hey Ass wipe. It’s from Macleans. Read much?


Hey Fuxl face, here's why your man is a piece of crap and will never be elected again.

*Damning report that Trudeau violated ethics act in SNC-Lavalin affair*



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he accepts and takes full responsibility after Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion found he violated the Conflict of Interest Act by trying to influence then-justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould to overrule a decision to not grant a deferred prosecution agreement to Quebec-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin.
> 
> In his report released Wednesday, Dion wrote, "The evidence showed there were many ways in which Mr. Trudeau, either directly or through the actions of those under his direction, sought to influence the Attorney General."
> 
> "The Prime Minister, directly and through his senior officials, used various means to exert influence over Ms. Wilson‑Raybould. The authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine and ultimately attempt to discredit the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson‑Raybould as the Crown's chief law officer," Dion said.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tr...fz9ibQjzTLjDSAvP1IRoD4UvituXe58UpysXes4OFvv7s


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Stunning. Not that The Dope is a lying, manipulative POS, but that MotherCorpse actually reported on this...

Related:

Trudeau sought to influence Wilson-Raybould, violated ethics rules: ethics commissioner



> Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion has found Prime Minister Justin Trudeau broke the federal Conflict of Interest Act in relation to the SNC-Lavalin scandal, by seeking to influence Jody Wilson-Raybould in "many ways."
> 
> Dion found that after taking months to review "troubling" evidence and relevant legal and constitutional principles, Trudeau contravened section nine of the Act, which states that public office holders are prohibited from using their position to seek to influence a decision that furthers the interest of a private third party.
> 
> His findings, released in a scathing report less than 70 days before the federal election, have renewed discussions about the scandal that dogged the Liberals for months earlier this years and led to a decline in the polls.


The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> *Uh oh. Here comes another $100 fine*.
> 
> Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion says PM Trudeau used his position of authority over Jody Wilson-Raybould to seek to influence her decision on whether she should overrule the Director of Public Prosecutions’ decision on SNC-Lavalin #cdnpoli
> 
> — Mercedes Stephenson (@MercedesGlobal) August 14, 2019​
> The report is here.


Bold mine.

<snort> 'Bout right...


----------



## eMacMan

Good read that sadly does not lend itself to a brief quote.
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/j...side/wcm/b2f834ef-cb99-446a-b986-0baa7e395ab9


> The mask slipped Wednesday, with the release of a report by Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion that found him in contravention of the Conflict of Interest Act for the second time — just two years after he had his knuckles wrapped for taking a Christmas vacation on an island in the Bahamas owned by the Aga Khan.
> 
> 
> Much of the narrative is known but the written testimony submitted by the prime minister last month is new and it will make uncomfortable reading for Liberals, revealing as it does the disconnect between the toothy feminist, preaching positive politics, and the egotist, happy to lay down his friends for his political life.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Conflict of interest the least of concerns raised by SNC-Lavalin affair



> ...The news, rather, comes in the details of how this was attempted, which make the matter even more disturbing than it first appeared.
> 
> We knew before now of the massive, all-government lobbying effort the company had mounted in support, first, of the addition of remediation as an alternative to prosecution for certain charges under the Criminal Code, and second, of its application in SNC-Lavalin’s case. We did not know quite how eager the government was to follow the company’s lead, or how closely the two conspired, even against their own attorney general.
> 
> It seems clear from the report, for example, that it was at SNC-Lavalin’s behest that the provision was inserted in the 2018 budget, after a hasty round of public consultations. At the time, it was presented as “a useful additional tool for prosecutors to use at their discretion in appropriate circumstances.” But as it emerged neither the government nor the company would accept any exercise of prosecutorial discretion but that which agreed with them.


More:



> All of this cries out for further inquiry, not least because even the ethics commissioner, despite his best efforts, found himself repeatedly stonewalled by the prime minister’s office. It took 49 days to deliver the first batch of documents he requested; 108 days to deliver the second. The prime minister and his officials suffered a number of convenient memory lapses.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Conflict of interest the least of concerns raised by SNC-Lavalin affair



> ...The news, rather, comes in the details of how this was attempted, which make the matter even more disturbing than it first appeared.
> 
> We knew before now of the massive, all-government lobbying effort the company had mounted in support, first, of the addition of remediation as an alternative to prosecution for certain charges under the Criminal Code, and second, of its application in SNC-Lavalin’s case. We did not know quite how eager the government was to follow the company’s lead, or how closely the two conspired, even against their own attorney general.
> 
> It seems clear from the report, for example, that it was at SNC-Lavalin’s behest that the provision was inserted in the 2018 budget, after a hasty round of public consultations. At the time, it was presented as “a useful additional tool for prosecutors to use at their discretion in appropriate circumstances.” But as it emerged neither the government nor the company would accept any exercise of prosecutorial discretion but that which agreed with them.


More:



> All of this cries out for further inquiry, not least because even the ethics commissioner, despite his best efforts, found himself repeatedly stonewalled by the prime minister’s office. It took 49 days to deliver the first batch of documents he requested; 108 days to deliver the second. The prime minister and his officials suffered a number of convenient memory lapses.


Related:

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> The fix
> is in https://t.co/YW0YvOD9nW
> 
> — Stefan Molyneux (@StefanMolyneux) August 14, 2019​


From the comments:



> Is anyone making a list of the institutions the Trudeau Liberals have corrupted or have attempted to corrupt?
> 
> – The Privy Council
> – Former Supreme Court justices, which then reflects badly on the Supreme Court as a whole. I also still think the TMX court loss was a stitch up.
> – The Attorney General of Canada
> – The Office of the Public Prosecutor
> – Revenue Canada
> – Infrastructure Bank
> – The Canadian Forces (Norman case)
> 
> All in four short years and that’s on top of the usual cronyism and political patronage. Why would anyone think the RCMP would escape Liberal interference? I’m sure some “creative incompetence” will help Trudeau out of any legal entanglements.
> 
> Thank goodness for the independence of our media who would never sell themselves to government for a few bucks. I wonder how much longer the PMO will allow them criticize Trudeau’s SNC scandal?


Yeppers...


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

No government should be involved in business--that includes "green" businesses.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The arrogance of this pup.

Let's face facts, Jane... 



> ...there's a reason he's known as the *"Kanadian Kardashian"*...
> 
> OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has *doubled down on his refusal to apologize *for his actions in the SNC-Lavalin affair, prompting former Liberal cabinet minister Jane Philpott to question whether he *truly grasps the “seriousness”* of his ethics violation.​
> It's also possible he's all out of apology juice.


Links' bold.

Related:

Trudeau broke the law, now we need to know if it was criminal

If? _IF?_ :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

Me, too. A province or two wide and a whole lot less Progs...

I Want A New Country



> BOE Report;
> 
> In 2018 alone, according to detailed information I recently requested from Statistics Canada, the value of crude oil imported into the country was nearly $20 billion. Considering that the oil business is one of the most job-rich parts of the economy, this amounts to exporting a lot of high-paying domestic jobs to foreign places.
> 
> It’s true there are some complications to the picture that are sometimes lost in the rush judgement, such as the fact even with pipelines to the Atlantic, it would not be simple to replace the lighter grades of oil coming in to Saint John, New Brunswick by tanker.
> 
> Complications aside, the inflow is an irritant to those who see made-in-Canada petroleum under sustained attack inside of Canada, including by our own politicians, while imported fuels are able to dodge nearly all of the barriers our own products face. This is what torques the irritation to rage – the fact that the vast majority of our fossil fuel imports fail to meet the same environmental, social or economic standards that beleaguered Canadian energy must.
> 
> It turns out that crude oil is not the only fossil fuel product this applies to.


Ah knows. That's probably RACIS' or somethin'...

Comments salient.

Excellent read.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Killing Free Speech In Canada



> * As has become standard in such cases, the charter contains no definition of what constitutes "hate", making it a catchall for whatever the Canadian government deems politically inopportune. This is all exhaustingly familiar by now: Germany already has legislation that requires social media platforms to censor their users. France is working on it.
> 
> * The Conservative members of the committee... recommended instead that sanctions regarding hate crimes online or elsewhere should be dealt with under the appropriate sections of the Criminal Code. They also recommended that "The definition of 'hate' under the Criminal Code be limited to where a threat of violence, or incitement to violence, is directed against an identifiable group" and that "rather than attempting to control speech and ideas, the Government explore appropriate security measures to address all three elements of a threat: intent, capability and opportunity".
> 
> * "Sickening ideologies which encourage individuals to take the lives of their fellow human beings have faced a concerning proliferation both at home and around the world. *Yet sadly, Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Members of this Committee have tried to use these troubling events as a way to bolster their political fortunes. They have tried to paint anyone who doesn't subscribe to their narrow value set as an extremist."* – Conservative Party dissenting opinion in "Taking Action to End Online Hate".​


Bold mine.


----------



## SINC

Bye bye Turd!

'Never trusted him in the first place': Yahoo Canada readers say Justin Trudeau isn't a 'trustworthy' PM

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/justin-trudeau-trustworthy-164243676.html


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Bye bye Turd!
> 
> 'Never trusted him in the first place': Yahoo Canada readers say Justin Trudeau isn't a 'trustworthy' PM
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/justin-trudeau-trustworthy-164243676.html


During my lifetime I cannot recall there ever being a Canadian PM or US president whom was worthy of our trust. Certainly not the Harpoon, nor the Cretin, nor Mulrooney, nor the elder Trudeau. Certainly not Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Bush 3 (BO) and absolutely not Trump.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Yahoo Canada readers say Justin Trudeau isn't a 'trustworthy' PM


They ain't the only ones...


----------



## FeXL

Fine. But how does that square with the blatant partisanship of Climate Barbie, _et al._?

Elections Canada warns environment groups that calling climate change real could be considered partisan



> A pre-election chill has descended over some environment charities after Elections Canada warned them that discussing the dangers of climate change during the upcoming federal campaign could be deemed partisan activity.
> 
> An Elections Canada official warned groups in a training session earlier this summer that because Maxime Bernier, the leader of the People’s Party of Canada, has expressed doubts about the legitimacy of climate change, any group that promotes it as real or an emergency could be considered partisan, said Tim Gray, executive director of the advocacy group Environmental Defence.


----------



## Beej

A Public Policy Forum media report that I saw covered by The Rebel:
https://ppforum.ca/articles/ddp-research-memo-1/

The results are from a brief snapshot (one week) and small sample (1,000), so it's worth watching for follow-up work if they repeat the methodology.



> In fact, the overall level of misinformation appears to be quite low in the Canadian public. The one troubling point seems to be that, while social media exposure is associated with higher levels of misinformation, so is exposure to traditional or mainstream media (though to a lesser extent). In general, it appears that simply consuming news, regardless of source, makes people susceptible to being misinformed about the issues.


Surprisingly, the chart on page nine shows that "fringe" sources such as The Rebel or National Observer were used by 10-20% across partisan lines, with an expected tilt favouring a reader's politics (ie. more Liberals for Observer, Conservatives for Rebel).

Roughly 1 in 10 people read/watched at least a bit of "counter-narrative" news, possibly challenging their own politics. Does anyone know of comparable U.S. data?


----------



## Beej

The intro features a lot of Canadian content, but the project looks largely American.

Help Cancel Cancel Culture
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fugh3zT2GAg[/ame]


No idea if the project will be good but, considering how insanely "sided" news media scandals are, it's worth hearing the target's side.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Anti-Trudeau billboards land in Ontario



> A group that started with a goal of defeating Liberals in Western Canada has landed in Ontario.
> 
> The Canada Growth Council, a free market advocacy group, has launched a series of billboards throughout southern Ontario aimed at convincing voters not to vote for Justin Trudeau and his Liberals.
> 
> “Would I hire this person that doesn’t keep any promises and has two ethics violations?” spokesman Derek Robinson said of Trudeau.


I wouldn't hire this guy to clean the $h!t off San Francisco streets...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Negative interest rates – not an economic curiosity, an ominous pall of government control about to storm the US and an ill-prepared Canada



> Canada, of course, is in epic trouble, with interest rates more closely aligned with the US, and with a government that treats international relations with the oddity of Trump and the results of a cow making an omelette. Our homegrown Zoolander and his gasoline-fight crew are flouncing around sipping frappuccinos and asking “Well that’s all well and good, money people, but how many interest rates will it take to save the planet?”


----------



## FeXL

A step in the right direction.

RCMP Saying Bye-Bye to Surrey



> Surrey, British Columbia will soon be transitioning from policing handled by the RCMP to a local variety. It’ll be an interesting change.


Comments salient.


----------



## SINC

Yep.

Another Climate Alarmist Admits Real Motive Behind Warming Scare

https://www.investors.com/politics/...mist-admits-real-motive-behind-warming-scare/


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Yep.
> 
> Another Climate Alarmist Admits Real Motive Behind Warming Scare
> 
> https://www.investors.com/politics/...mist-admits-real-motive-behind-warming-scare/


Not buying that perspective. The lamestream media is the biggest promoters of this scam, and the lamestream is owned body and soul buy the super capitalists. The goal is impure and simple; total tyranny with the super elite in charge. To accomplish that they need to bleed us dry.


----------



## eMacMan

A worthwhile read. Applies equally to the anti-semitism BS that flies every time someone questions Israeli actions in Palestine or Lebanon. 
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/nelson-billboard-fracas-a-sad-day-for-canadian-debate



> Or are only certain voices allowed, those fitting an approved viewpoint? Or are we scared to actually debate these issues, instead resorting to the tactics of name-calling and Twitter piling-on? People once hurled rotten fruit at politicians on the stump: today the moral online soapbox with its outrage is the tool of choice. Frankly, the first showed more commitment and guts. At least people looked each other in the eye.





> These are questions simplistic billboards can actually encourage. This is how we progress. Debate, argue and even fight. It isn’t perfect but it beats the heck out of being too intellectually weak and emotionally frozen to get in the ring of public discourse and have a “get-to-it” scrap. It’s so much easier to demand other views be banned.


----------



## FeXL

The only thing surprising here is that MotherCorpse actually asked a pertinent question.

Math Is Hard



> 92 million bucks and nobody bought a lousy calculator;
> 
> The MMIWG national inquiry overstated in its final report the percentage of Canadian homicide victims who are Indigenous women and girls by misquoting a figure from Statistics Canada — and later quietly altered the report online after CBC News raised questions.
> 
> The error, which was confirmed to CBC News by the inquiry’s director of research, occurred when the commission left out a word that had appeared in the original Statistics Canada figure.
> 
> The statement “Indigenous women and girls now make up almost 25 per cent of homicide victims” should have referred to their percentage share of female homicide victims — which is a smaller number of people.
> 
> It’s one of a number of statistics in the inquiry report on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls (MMIWG) that appear to conflict with numbers collected by the government of Canada, or with other numbers in the same report. In some cases, the inquiry report’s footnotes cite government reports that do not support the footnoted statements.
> 
> And the error was subsequently corrected in the online version of the report, without giving public notification.​
> The real number is 6%.


I'm sure it was an _honest_ mistake...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The only thing surprising here is that MotherCorpse actually asked a pertinent question.
> 
> Math Is Hard
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure it was an _honest_ mistake...


Indigenous people make up 4.9% of the population...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Indigenous people make up 4.9% of the population...


But that's a whole 1.1% differential!!! tptptptp


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The iron...

The Following Message Is From Your Federal Minister of Natural Resources

Perhaps if you bastards let pipelines get built, you wouldn't have to sit and watch tankers carrying oil stop traffic in front of you!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Who else would have the empathy to interrogate our feminist PM?



> A stellar cast of central Canadian journalists, all of them eminently female, has been selected to moderate the first federal election leaders’ debate. They are three news anchors — Lisa LaFlamme, Rosemary Barton and Dawna Friesen — and two columnists, Susan Delacourt and Althia Raj.
> 
> There is no way of precisely knowing this, but I am confident that choosing all five exclusively from the XX chromosome class was a matter of some exultation, perhaps reaching to self-congratulation. Somewhere, in whatever closet these mysterious deliberations were conducted, surely at their conclusion there was a whoop of “You go girls!,” and surely, too, much high-fiving over the shards of another broken “glass ceiling.”


Poor kid. Blech...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I Want A New Country



> As expected: _Court allows six Trans Mountain appeals focusing on Indigenous consultation_


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Canada denies Arab media report it will take in 100,000 Palestinians



> Canada denied a report in the Lebanon-based newspaper Al Akhbar on Wednesday according to which the country has reached an understanding with the United States that it will receive 100,000 Palestinians (40,000 from Lebanon and another 60,000 from Syria).
> 
> The Lebanese paper quoted a source in a Palestinian faction. The paper claimed that there is a further understanding with Spain to receive 16,000 Palestinians from Lebanon, alongside similar agreements with Belgium and France. The understandings would lead to the reduction of the cost of migration from $12,000 to $7,000 per person.
> The representative of Hamas in Lebanon, Ahmed Abdel-Hadi, told _Al Akhbar_ that part of the Deal of the Century aims to resettle between 75,000 to 100,000 Palestinians in Lebanon and displace the rest to more than one country.


More:



> "Canada is a welcoming country to people from around the world, but it is important that people rely on accurate information before starting their journey," Mathieu Genest, press secretary for the Ministry of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada told _The Jerusalem Post_.


<snort> One of Trudles' disciples, lecturing others on truth? The iron...


----------



## SINC

If you only knew more about the Turdeau Foundation, now you can.

The Shady History of the Trudeau Foundation





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Get yours before the election!

BANNED from Amazon...Trudeau Must Go! rather... 'Turd'eau M~G~!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

It's only mind-boggling to those who believed the little twerp possesses a shred of integrity in the first place...

Trudeau's mea culpa over his electoral reform debacle is truly mind boggling



> The honest person Justin Trudeau purports to be cannot claim good intentions in this situation and expect to get away with it. I cannot ever recall seeing such an implausibly ambitious plea for clemency for such a transparently cynical record. It says a lot that he would even attempt it.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

I wonder how many rainbow shirts get worn on that tour on any given day?

Parliament security apologizes after man told shirt expressing love for Canadian oil might be offensive



> Parliament’s security service has apologized to an Alberta oil executive after his shirt expressing love for Canadian oil was deemed too risqué for a Senate tour.
> 
> William Lacey, chief financial officer for Calgary-based Steelhead Petroleum, told the National Post he was trying to tour the Senate on Monday with his family when he was stopped by a security guard.
> 
> At the time he was wearing a shirt that says “I love Canadian oil and gas” on the front (using symbols for words), and “The world needs more Canadian energy” on the back. The shirt is produced by a group called Canada Action.
> 
> “The guard looked at me and he said, ‘Sir, I’m gonna have to ask you to remove your shirt because some people may be offended by the message,’” Lacey said. He said the guard gave him two options: turn the shirt inside out, or leave.


Lacey turned the shirt inside out & continued the tour. I'd have told the guard to get stuffed & left, family in tow.

And, _and_, in the forthcoming "apology" they didn't even have the decency to mention him by name. He was merely, "the gentleman that raised this issue".


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

If You Can’t Make History, Make Mischief.



> Via email;
> 
> Good Morning, Norman Traversy here. I have successfully charged Trudeau with obstruction of justice in the SNC-Lavalin affair.
> 
> My Pre-Enquete hearing is tomorrow at the Ottawa courthouse. I have a lawyer accompanying me – he’s pro bono tomorrow, but after that, he has to be paid.
> 
> I have set up a GoFundMe page – https://www.gofundme.com/f/uphold-the-law .
> 
> We have raised $5000 so far – not much, as far as legal costs are concerned. But that is just in two days!
> 
> Could you please post the link to this on your blog? You could make history.
> 
> All the best, from a Canadian patriot.​
> Heh.


You go, Norman!

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

They Love All the Basic Dictatorships



> Liberal candidate praises Castro just like Trudeau did.
> 
> “Fidel Castro was a larger than life leader who served his people for almost half a century. A legendary revolutionary and orator, Mr. Castro made significant improvements to the education and health care of his island nation,” Trudeau said in an official statement.
> 
> I mean sure, Castro oppressed the people of Cuba for more than 50 years, he jailed his opponents, banned religious practice for much of his time in office, closed down dissenting media and executed thousands — including gays and lesbians — but look at the schools and those speeches!​


----------



## SINC

What a complete fcukin qweebek arse:

Yes, Quebec is a nation, Justin Trudeau says

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/yes-quebec-is-a-nation-justin-trudeau-says


----------



## SINC

Corbella: $2 million prize to Tzeporah Berman should have stirred up a tidal wave of controversy

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/co...l6q0ggzCQiv_jTo5pF4SMB5Jdc#Echobox=1568119714


----------



## macintosh doctor

Our Jihadist Traitor Trudeau will call an election on Sept 11!! what an asshole.. 
I can't wait to rid ourselves of this idiot.


----------



## FeXL

I Want A New Country



> The Conservative Party’s obsession with winning seats in Quebec despite an abundance of evidence suggesting it is neither plausible nor necessary, is one of the great handicaps of Canadian politics. https://t.co/mn9zVCYc2a
> 
> — J.J. McCullough (@JJ_McCullough) September 9, 2019​


Yet another "great handicaps of Canadian politics" are brain dead candidates...


----------



## Rps

Okay so let’s see how the “pundits” do here. I’m interested in how you see the seats will be won by party in this election.

Liberal =

Conservatives=

Green=

NDP=

Bloc=

Independent =

I will furnish my view later this week.


----------



## FeXL

Huh. Who knew?

Manitoba Provincial Election Open Thread


----------



## FeXL

Well, the "Conservatives" won...


----------



## FeXL

Got my vote!

Green MPs will be allowed to press for Quebec separatism in Parliament



> On the night before the federal election kicks off, the Green Party of Canada said it would not stop its members from pushing for Quebec separatism in parliament.
> 
> The party was reacting Tuesday to an interview on Quebec’s QUB Radio with Montreal-area MP Pierre Nantel on Tuesday.
> 
> Nantel, who is running for the Greens after he was booted from the NDP for secretly meeting with Green Leader Elizabeth May in August, told the radio station that he would vote to separate if there was a sovereignty referendum in Quebec.
> 
> *Speaking in French, he said “we should separate quickly.”*


Bold mine.

Why, yes. Yes, you should.

Frankly, with Kaybeck gone, that'd make Alberta staying in confederation _almost_ tolerable. I said almost...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> ProTip: Next time the RCMP come calling with questions, cite ‘cabinet confidentiality’.
> 
> The RCMP has been looking into potential obstruction of justice in the handling of the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin Group Inc., but its examination has been stymied by the federal government’s refusal to lift cabinet confidentiality for all witnesses, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> This means individuals involved in the matter cannot discuss events or share documents with police that have not been exempted from the rule of cabinet confidentiality, according to sources, who The Globe agreed not to identify so they could discuss the RCMP inquiries.
> 
> In Canada, the principle of cabinet confidentiality is intended to allow ministers to debate decisions freely in private. As a result, discussions involving cabinet matters must be kept secret unless a waiver is granted. In the SNC matter, the Liberals say that the Clerk of the Privy Council, who heads the bureaucratic agency that serves the Prime Minister’s Office, made the decision not to offer a broad waiver to either the RCMP or to the Ethics Commissioner, and that the PMO played no role.
> 
> A source who was recently interviewed by the RCMP told The Globe that investigators indicated they are looking into possible obstruction of justice. The Criminal Code says obstruction of justice occurs when an effort is made to “obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice in a judicial proceeding.”
> 
> The national police force will pause the operation because of the coming election campaign. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is scheduled to go to Rideau Hall Wednesday to ask the Governor-General to dissolve Parliament and call the vote for Oct. 21, and the RCMP has a policy to suspend politically sensitive operations during campaigns.​
> And on the eve of an election call. (They’ll question the timing)


----------



## FeXL

Related to the above.

Suddenly Liberals Don’t Care About Obstruction of Justice



> It’s almost like the issue only matters if they can use it to attack someone else.
> 
> Shutting down the House of Commons committee can be dismissed as partisan politics. Denying the ethics commissioner full access to witnesses and documents was wrong and petulant.
> 
> But blocking the RCMP is Putinesque.​


Curious, that...


----------



## macintosh doctor

Trudeau running on his morals LOL


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau deflects blame for blocking RCMP probe of office



> Faced with questions about obstructing the RCMP from investigating his own office, Justin Trudeau stood smiling before the cameras and tried to hide behind the facade of the civil service.
> 
> “We respect the decisions made by our professional public servants. We respect the decision made by the clerk,” Trudeau said.
> 
> *Which is strange* because the reason the RCMP wanted to obtain documents from his office and speak to witnesses is because Trudeau didn’t respect the decision of the director of public prosecutions in the SNC-Lavalin case. In that instance, Trudeau and many in his office put extreme pressure on then attorney-general Jody Wilson-Raybould to overturn the decision of the director.


Bold mine.

Stange, Brian? Face it: this is the Prime Groper we're talking about here...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

An auspicious start... 

Liberal election plane damaged after media bus drives under wing



> Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau’s election plane sustained some damage in Victoria after a media bus drove under one of its wings Wednesday night.
> 
> The plane had just landed in the British Columbia capital after transporting Trudeau, his team and several journalists travelling with the campaign across the country for Day 1 of the federal election race.


There goes that $600 million... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## SINC

Trudeau's assault on accountability has mired him in scandal, declining voter support

https://business.financialpost.com/...8dd94Xo-tEQXnmcv5vnuEvatVU#Echobox=1568645998


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Trudeau's assault on accountability has mired him in scandal, declining voter support


From your link:



> And morality matters.


Not to the Libs, it don't...


----------



## FeXL

Coulda Had Max



> And now they do;
> 
> After not initially meeting all necessary criteria, the Commission has decided to include Bernier, who formed the still fledgling federal political party in 2018 with a vow to run a candidate in all 338 ridings.
> 
> “Based on our further evaluation, I’m satisfied that more than one candidate endorsed by the party has a reasonable chance to be elected,” said Commissioner David Johnston in a statement.​
> I have my own suspicions about why the change of heart, and it isn’t for the reasons stated.


I'd have to agree w/ Kate's suspicions.


----------



## FeXL

Cameron Ortis Arrest: Developing



> #BREAKING Exclusive: information obtained through an intl criminal probe into encrypted comms firm Phantom Secure (used by global criminal syndicates) produced evidence that led to investigation and arrest of the RCMP's Cameron Ortis https://t.co/VeVjfMbu3p #cdnnatsec #natsec
> 
> — Mercedes Stephenson (@MercedesGlobal) September 16, 2019​
> Read the rest of the thread, too
> 
> From the comments: _Maybe Ralphie “The Nazi Hunter” Goodale should spend less time chasing white nationalists, and spend more time monitoring characters in the security services. We have had two major incidents like this since Groper came to power._


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

What the media isn’t covering during this election



> A quick visit to the [MotherCorpse] website gives me a lead story about “How the parties deal with fizzles and flops on the campaign trail” followed by “5 things Jagmeet Singh wants you to know about his turban,” neither of which I can guarantee you is anyone’s ballot question sat around the supper table.


Related:

Free poutine for CBC is a symbol of how Trudeau views the media



> A campaign video posted by Global News earlier today perfectly highlights the problematic relationship the Trudeau government maintains with the media, especially the state broadcaster.
> 
> The video itself is quite clear.
> 
> The Prime Minister grabs poutine and scours the audience before jokingly giving the *prized Canadian delicacy* to a CBC reporter.
> 
> “The Liberal Party always supports the CBC,” Justin Trudeau says, before passing the curds forward.


Bold mine.

Gag me...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

SOOOOOOUUUUUUIIIIIIEEEEEEE!!!!!

Oh, Shiny Prime Minister!

From the comments:



> On the radio just now the Canadian Press is calling it “brown face” rather than the death penalty offence of “black face”. I’ll wait to hear butts spun this crap. Eat it punk.


Related:

Canadian PM and Woke Icon Justin Trudeau Wore Blackface -- Or "Brownface," Which Is Two Shades Less Serious -- At Party, Canada's Liberal Party is Forced to Admit



> I think we're going to find out that liberal dogmas about race-shaming aren't quite as dogmatic as applied in the cases of non-leftists.
> 
> A lot of nuance will be discovered here.


More:



> And I just got tipped this: Twitter is actively censoring accounts which retweet Trudeau's brownface picture.
> 
> Always protecting the left, always punishing the right.
> 
> But censorship is great when monopolies do it!!!!


----------



## macintosh doctor

Justin Trudeau dresses in Black face at the same time groping a female - talk about liberal privilege

https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/media.../251543525-justintrudeau_brownface-wjpg_large


----------



## wonderings

macintosh doctor said:


> Justin Trudeau dresses in Black face at the same time groping a female - talk about liberal privilege
> 
> https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/media.../251543525-justintrudeau_brownface-wjpg_large


Well Trudeau is “pissed off” at himself for doing it so it is all ok.


----------



## FeXL

wonderings said:


> Well Trudeau is “pissed off” at himself for doing it so it is all ok.


He should be pissed on for doing it. The long & distinguished line forms behind me...

Related (language warning!):

Justin Trudeau: If I Have Any Regrets, It Is Only That I, A Completely Straight Man, Love Playing Dress-Up With Colorful and Exotically Theatrical Costumes Too Much


----------



## FeXL

Investigation into senior RCMP official stemmed from disruption of encrypted phone service: sources



> The arrest of a senior RCMP official was the fruit of a 2018 international police operation that targeted the encrypted communications service Phantom Secure, sources have told Global News.
> 
> An outfit that sold untraceable smartphones to criminals so they could evade police, Phantom Secure was dismantled last year by authorities in the U.S., Canada, Australia, Hong Kong and Thailand.
> 
> The arrest of Phantom Secure CEO Vincent Ramos in Washington State in March 2018 led police to sensitive RCMP information that had been offered up for sale, according to the sources.


Like I didn't already have enough reasons to distrust the bastards.


----------



## Beej

macintosh doctor said:


> Justin Trudeau dresses in Black face at the same time groping a female - talk about liberal privilege
> 
> https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/media.../251543525-justintrudeau_brownface-wjpg_large


Very 2019. Maybe he will cut down on lecturing everyone else about being sexist and racist.

Probably not, though.

Update: He's done this at least three times? Where's that progressive projection meme...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*



Beej said:


> Update: He's done this at least three times?


Yep:

Oh, Shiny Black Minstrel!



> Paul Wells;
> 
> The Liberal campaign is built around a sophisticated oppo research organization that says their opponents are bad people. Where does it stand now?​
> *Well, they’ve cancelled events for Thursday. *


Bold mine.

Little damage control, methinks? Watch the prick stutter now...

PM Blackface: The Movie



> Global News Exclusive: Video shows Trudeau in blackface in 3rd instance of racist makeup
> 
> Had this been Scheer or Bernier, they’d be gone already. And, then there’s the obvious.
> 
> Not just Trudeau, you grovelling hacks. It challenges every high and mighty, sanctimonious Liberal and media pundit who demands racism be called out, who condemns those that fail to do so, who are all currently silent and terrified, with no idea what to say right now. https://t.co/AvjvMflSii
> 
> — John Groves (@jfgroves) September 19, 2019​


Hey, Piggyyyyyy!!!

SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

Realistically, I have little faith that this will do much of anything. Despite the fact that these bastards need to be judged by the same BS standards that they foist upon everybody else, Ontario, Quebec & the Atlantic provinces will shrug their shoulders, look the other way & vote for him again.

I hope I'm wrong...

Nails it:



> Hey !!!!! Ralphie !!!!
> 
> TIME found one of those racists for you…..


----------



## eMacMan

One of the smartest things I have done is cutting the TV portion of my cable subscription. Pure and simple with no TV, there are no ads and with no TV ads the most odoriferous part f the federal election pretty much disappears.

I am completely confident that whomever wins, the deep state globalist puppet masters will have him completely under their collective thumb before the last ballot is counted.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Realistically, I have little faith that this will do much of anything. Despite the fact that these bastards need to be judged by the same BS standards that they foist upon everybody else, Ontario, Quebec & the Atlantic provinces will shrug their shoulders, look the other way & vote for him again.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong...


A large portion of the Canadian population will hold their nose and vote for this twerp. 

After all of the vitriol against Trump for imagined racism, what do they do when they meet a real racist...?

I'm surprised those EhMac bastions of political correctitude have not already arrived here to call Trudeau out.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> A large portion of the Canadian population will hold their nose and vote for this twerp.


Frankly, that says more about them than him...



Macfury said:


> After all of the vitriol against Trump for imagined racism, what do they do when they meet a real racist...?


Crickets.



Macfury said:


> I'm surprised those EhMac bastions of political correctitude have not already arrived here to call Trudeau out.


See above.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Crickets.


If it were Andrew Scheer, that ol' hypocrite CM would set up a separate topic for this one.


----------



## Macfury

From Twitter:


----------



## SINC

This guy is one sick puppy!

*Exclusive: Video shows Trudeau in blackface in 3rd instance of racist makeup*



> Global News has obtained video showing Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau in blackface, the third instance of racist dress to come to light in 12 hours.
> 
> The video was shot in the early 1990s, however, it’s not clear where it takes place.
> 
> The video, obtained exclusively by Global News, shows Trudeau covered in what appears to be dark makeup and raising his hands in the air while laughing, sticking his tongue out and making faces. He’s wearing a white T-shirt, and his jeans are ripped at the knees. It appears as though his arms and legs are covered in makeup as well. It does not appear the video was shot at the same time and place of the other photos of Trudeau in racist make-up that have emerged in the past 24 hours.


More at the link.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5922861/.../news/5922861/justin-trudeau-brownface-video/

SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## SINC

*As Trudeau deals with bombshell, Jody Wilson-Raybould gets boost from Green Party Leader Elizabeth May*



> VANCOUVER—It’s not often an Independent candidate gets a boost from a federal party leader during an election campaign.
> 
> But by this point, nothing should be surprising when it comes to the political odyssey of Jody Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> The former Liberal justice minister held a joint campaign event Wednesday night with fellow Liberal outcast Jane Philpott, called A Night for Independent Voices.
> 
> Joining the two former cabinet ministers? Green Party Leader Elizabeth May.
> 
> “I’m here to honour the highest level of ethical conduct," May told the boisterous crowd at the Hellenic Community of Vancouver Centre, which was hooting, hollering and clapping throughout the evening.
> 
> “We must rescue democracy from politics.”


More at the link.

https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/2...st-from-green-party-leader-elizabeth-may.html

SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Macfury

Putting on blackface is offensive. Colouring your hands and arms as well is a commitment.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Shocka...

Mortifying: Media Invents So Many Convoluted Euphemisms to Protect Justin Trudeau From the Charge of "Blackfase" That _Trudeau Himself_ Is Forced to Correct Them and Say "It's Blackface, Guys"



> Incredible.
> 
> The guy they were trying to protect with euphemisms and evasions had to tell them that their euphemisms and evasions on his behalf were embarrassing and wrong.
> 
> Some called it "skin-darkening make-up." Via Twitchy, CNN called it "Darkface," like he was just dressing up as a C-level Batman villain.
> 
> Slate showed why they're Slate and called it, "dressing up like Aladdin."
> 
> Twitchy points out that Slate seems to be actively trying to mislead its readers into thinking _this_ is the picture of Trudeau "dressing up as Aladdin:"
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> "I'd like to thank the hacks for covering for me, but even I'm not that pathetic." https://t.co/YTX6emzngC
> — Against bad things (@JohnnyPixelface) September 19, 2019​


'K. Now where's yer resignation...


----------



## SINC

From The New York Times:

*The Downfall of Canada’s Dreamy Boyfriend*

For Americans, Justin Trudeau’s undoing has been swift. For Canadians, it has been a long time coming.



> “He is getting so embarrassing, tbh.”
> 
> That was the text I woke up to this morning from a Canadian friend who, like me, has been living in the United States. She was talking about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and yesterday’s Time magazine bombshell report that he once wore brownface to an “Arabian Nights” party while a teacher at a private school in Vancouver in 2001. (Since Time’s story broke, other instances of Mr. Trudeau in blackface and brownface have surfaced, including a video.)
> 
> My friend was referring to how Mr. Trudeau is seen on the world stage, but especially in the United States, a country that had a tendency to pretend that Canada didn’t exist until Mr. Trudeau came along. And her text encapsulated a distinction I’ve noticed in how Americans have been receiving this story compared with Canadians. For Americans, Mr. Trudeau’s downfall from liberal media darling — remember Rolling Stone’s 2017 cover, “Why can’t he be our president?” — to disgraced politician has been swift. For Canadians, it has been a long time coming.
> 
> It all started back in 2015 when Mr. Trudeau won a surprising majority victory over the longtime Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Cozying up to then-President Barack Obama, the two young, charismatic world leaders had what the press affectionately called a “bromance.”
> 
> But south of the border, excitement over Mr. Trudeau didn’t really reach its zenith until November 2016. Before that, the prime minister, with his self-described feminism and his openness to Syrian refugees, had cast himself as Canada’s answer to the charismatic and cosmopolitan liberalism of the Obama years. Now, however, for American liberals, he was no longer cute kid brother but foil: Mr. Trudeau offered the perfect juxtaposition to the crassness of Donald Trump. Every detail, from his luxurious hair to his stylish socks, seemingly served to emphasize their differences.
> 
> It was in this spirit that Rolling Stone put Mr. Trudeau on its cover and Vogue did a sultry photo shoot with him and his wife, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau. Talk of “Canadian exceptionalism” made the rounds — the idea that while the United States was imploding, Canada was a beacon of hope in a world gone mad. It was a sentiment echoed by pundits on both sides of the border: Adam Gopnik wrote an essay in The New Yorker reminding Americans, “We could have been Canada,” while Stephen Marche, writing in the Toronto-based publication The Walrus, called Canada “the last country on Earth to believe in multiculturalism.”
> 
> On the world stage, things were bright. But back home, the love affair with Mr. Trudeau, for those who ever had one, was short-lived.
> 
> Characteristically for politicians, it started with a failed promise. In early 2017, the Trudeau government announced it wouldn’t be pursuing electoral reform, despite making it a major part of the Liberal Party platform. (The reforms were part of a broader effort to make Canada’s parliamentary system proportionately representative.)
> 
> Then, in 2018, Mr. Trudeau made one of his most shocking moves: purchasing the Trans Mountain Pipeline, which runs from Alberta to coastal British Columbia, as part of an expansion project to increase capacity and add portions of new pipeline. Coming from a prime minister who said he was committed to green energy and tackling climate change, the move angered environmentalists and some Indigenous nations who oppose the pipeline, including those who had supported Mr. Trudeau.
> 
> Mr. Trudeau’s public image as a liberal feminist committed to gender equality also took a hit with the more recent affair involving the Montreal-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin. The details of this evolving and very Canadian political scandal are difficult to explain. But in brief, it started with allegations that Mr. Trudeau’s office tried to interfere in then-Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould’s investigation into the firm. The important part, for Mr. Trudeau’s brand, is that following the resignation of Ms. Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott, a former Treasury Board president, from Mr. Trudeau’s cabinet, the prime minister kicked them out of his party. For many, this was a shocking way to treat two of his most prominent female allies, including the country’s first Indigenous justice minister.
> 
> In Canada, these developments, as well as a host of others, have changed how liberals see Mr. Trudeau. He is far less popular than he was in 2015, a leader despised on the right and often ridiculed on the left.
> 
> These stories, though, rarely made a stir in the United States. Occasionally, I’d see articles alluding to Mr. Trudeau’s troubles. Recently, Hasan Minhaj’s Netflix series “Patriot Act” featured an episode with Mr. Trudeau, in which he uncomfortably answers questions about the gap between his image and his policies. But overall, the American story of Mr. Trudeau as a “dream politician for the left,” as Mr. Minhaj put it, stuck. Until now, that is.
> 
> There are two ways this story will be understood, depending on which side of the border you’re on.
> 
> For many Americans, the story connects Canada to what’s often seen as a deeply ingrained American tradition: blackface. Down here, Trudeau’s brownface and blackface episodes are bursting the Canadian exceptionalism bubble. Slowly but surely Americans are learning we Canadians can be just like you: very, very racist.
> 
> For Canadians, though, the story is different. It also has bigger stakes, coming as it does in the middle of a federal election that has seen the Liberals and Conservatives neck-and-neck in the polls. It’s the latest in a series of scandals that have led many liberals to grow disillusioned and, yes, even flat out embarrassed by Mr. Trudeau.
> 
> Sorry, Americans. As Canadians living in the United States, we tried to tell you: That dude you thought was your dreamy boyfriend? He’s not all he’s cracked up to be. And like you, we’re wondering, as Jagmeet Singh, leader of Canada’s New Democratic Party and the first person of color to lead a major party, put it: “Who is the real Mr. Trudeau?”


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/...MqbhBvJaSCwY0Z5cteG9WUsxUovVqcKmd1z0cpryQQUB4


----------



## FeXL

Scratch A Leftist



> Find an anti-Semite;
> 
> B’nai Brith Canada is deeply disturbed by the New Democratic Party’s nomination of a candidate who was filmed affixing “warning” labels to Israeli products on Canadian store shelves and encouraging Canadians to boycott them.
> 
> Miranda Gallo, the NDP candidate for the Montreal riding of Saint-Laurent, starred in the troubling videos in 2016 as an employee of “Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East” (CJPME), an anti-Israel group. CJPME’s “Sticky Note Campaign” targets not just products hailing from areas disputed between Israel and the Palestinians, but even items produced in the Jewish State’s internationally-recognized territory.​
> The NDP are cool with it, though.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Trudeau Town Hall In Saskatoon

From the comments:



> Mr. Trudeau, you tell me that while I’m trying to keep my family warm, I have to pay a carbon tax while you vacation on the beaches of the Bahamas
> Mr. Trudeau, you tell me I must welcome diversity, while you are currently surrounded by eight body guards.
> Mr. Trudeau, you tell me I must pay more tax, but all the wealth that your grandfather and father created is sheltered in a family trust.
> Mr. Trudeau, you tell me you have the most feminist administration in Canadian history. But five women have left your caucus. Two because they refused to break the law for you
> Mr. Trudeau, the tax returns I fill out each year tell me I must report any foreign assets greater than 100k yet your finance minister “forgot” that he had a French villa
> Mr. Trudeau, you call me a racist and a homophobe for only questioning your policies, but you dress up in offensive garb
> Mr. Trudeau, you say you don’t condone terrorism, yet you pay 10.5 million to a convicted murderer
> Mr. Trudeau you say you are protecting jobs, but you are doing everything you can to destroy the lives of people that live in my home province.
> Mr. Trudeau….


Related:

Remember... it's not really "racism"... 



> *...it's over-exuberant enthusiasm...*
> 
> “The fact of the matter is that I’ve always - and you’ll notice - *been more enthusiastic about costumes* than somehow is sometimes appropriate. But these are the *situations that I regret deeply*,” Trudeau said.


Last bold mine.

I'll bet...

Related, too:

(Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside)

Quebec doesn't really give a crap...



> ...just keep those equalization payments flowing, merci...insert alt text here
> 
> "I can understand that some people were hurt by these pictures. But Mr. Trudeau said that he was sorry. I think *we have to talk about something else*," said Premier François Legault, who has clashed with Trudeau over the law, also known as Bill 21.
> 
> The leader of the sovereignist Parti Québécois, Pascal Bérubé, went so far as to *play down the condemnations* issued by Trudeau's federal rivals.
> 
> CBC News and Radio-Canada reporters interviewed more than a dozen voters in the riding of Papineau on Thursday. All but one said *they would still vote for Trudeau.*​


Links' bold.

F'ing ideologs...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Scratch A Leftist


The left's anti-Semitism seems increasingly unapologetic. It isn't "just political" when the only country they're focused on is Israel. Where are the sticky notes on Chinese goods for the way they are treating Hong Kong and Tibet?


----------



## SINC

*Tarnished world image may finally doom Trudeau*

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...GF2tpVSRRQxJyJdbbE3FoVqDP8#Echobox=1568935783


----------



## SINC

> *It’s time to call Trudeau to account*
> 
> Can we not now, at long last, simply admit it?
> 
> That four years ago we elected a shallow, not overly bright, temperamental child of privilege, who would have had zero chance of leading the Liberal Party of Canada, let alone becoming Prime Minister of Canada, were his last name not “Trudeau?”
> 
> Can we not, at long last, acknowledge the painfully obvious — that while Justin Trudeau can act the part of prime minister when he has a script prepared for him, by others — he’s terrible at thinking on his feet?
> 
> Can we not admit that Trudeau has repeatedly misled us on matters of substance, from his initial declaration the Globe and Mail’s first story on the SNC-Lavalin scandal was “false,” to his 2015 election promise — not a prediction, a promise he made on national television — that Canada would have a balanced budget this year? (Now, he says it’s a $19.8 billion deficit.)
> 
> Can we not acknowledge that a prime minister who says the reason he didn’t know blackface was racist — as a full-grown adult and a teacher — was that he was surrounded by layers of white privilege, is essentially telling us he’s not a racist because he’s oblivious and dumb?
> 
> Can we not finally admit that a prime minister who apparently hid his racist fetish of repeatedly dressing up in blackface from his own party, while publicly accusing his Conservative opponent of being a closet white supremacist, has no appreciation of what breathtaking hypocrisy means?
> 
> And has issues to work out about himself that he should not be doing while he’s the Prime Minister of Canada.
> 
> Can we not, at long last, dispense with a prime minister who, when he screws up, and he screws up a lot, claims it’s a learning experience for the rest of us?
> 
> What more will it take after the Aga Khan vacation scandal, the Lavscam scandal and the Mark Norman prosecution scandal — plus the findings of two ethics commissioners that he violated federal conflict of interest legislation — for us to finally acknowledge Trudeau has no meaningful understanding of the limits of the wise, judicious and appropriate use of prime ministerial power?
> 
> How much longer are we to tolerate a prime minister who, when asked in 2013 what country he admires, came up with the “basic dictatorship” of China, whose dictators are currently hell-bent on snuffing out democracy in Hong Kong, while unjustly imprisoning Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig?
> 
> When does a prime minister who calls himself a champion of diversity and equality, but who then banishes from his party two cabinet ministers — Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott — who had the moral courage to speak truth to power — his power — finally get called to account?
> 
> We already know the Liberal party will never rein in Trudeau if he wins another majority government.
> 
> We know it by the way Liberal MPs across Canada are twisting themselves into moral pretzels trying to justify their attacks on Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer as a racist while defending Trudeau in his blackface scandal.
> 
> We know it by the way they folded like cheap tents when Trudeau and Co. used their Liberal majority in Parliament to prematurely shut down committee inquiries into Lavscam, not once, but twice.
> 
> And who are silent when Trudeau rejects a request from Parliament’s ethics commissioner to waive confidentiality for government witnesses and documents, so he can do a full and complete investigation into Lavscam.
> 
> Simply put, when is enough, enough?


https://winnipegsun.com/opinion/col...lAjNMXM2mjX_Ou8aVDKKPFfhd5MzyYBEXS-kSj8xSvdH8


----------



## FeXL

> Simply put, when is enough, enough?​


Preachin' to the choir...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Shiny Marquis de Blackface



> Justin's 2000 eulogy for PET included:
> "Because simple tolerance, mere tolerance, is not enough. We need genuine and deep respect for each and every human being, notwithstanding their thoughts, their values, their beliefs, their origins."
> A year later he wore blackface.#cdnpoli
> 
> — Peter Easton (@peter102746) September 20, 2019​


And now this today, in the Sunday Telegraph;



> On the evening of Feb 24, 2001 Justin Trudeau breezed into the palatial Fairmont hotel overlooking Vancouver harbour for a charity gala.
> 
> It was supposed to be a formal event with an “Arabian Nights” theme including belly dancers and Middle Eastern music.
> 
> Some 500 guests showed up, the men in tuxedos. Except Mr Trudeau. He had painted his face, hands and feet black, donned billowing robes, and placed a giant turban on his head. Not one other person was in blackface.
> 
> If Mr Trudeau felt any embarrassment at his jaw-dropping and racially offensive faux pas, then he didn’t show it.
> 
> […]
> 
> * The Telegraph can reveal that the woman photographed being hugged by the blackfaced future prime minster was Mariam Matossian, a fellow teacher. *​





> * After a US magazine published the photo, a British paper could identify the woman not in costume next to Trudeau in costume/blackface touching her chest, but no one in #cdnmedia could?* #cdnpoli #cdnmedia #JustinJournos
> 
> — Norman Spector (@nspector4) September 22, 2019​


Bold mine.

If this had been Harper in blackface, you can bet your sweet patootie the Progs would have had everything from her bra size to her last meal documented & on full display.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Deflect, deflect, deflect. We, we, we. Screw you, Juthdin. _You_ did this. Nobody else. Man up, shut up, & just walk out. Close the door behind you, you simpering idiot...

Justin Trudeau: Now All Canadians are Racist!



> Anyone who has visited SDA over the years has seen numerous stories about Leftists accusing others of the negative things that they harbour within. Much like a Christian preacher who speaks a little too often about the evils of homosexuality, turns out to be gay, Canada’s “dear” prime minister isn’t very happy with the current state of Canadians.


The Word Has Gone Out



> Shiny Marquis de Blackface is a “fraud”.
> 
> A callow fraud.
> 
> A sanctimonious fraud.
> 
> But he’s not a racist.
> 
> Oh no.
> 
> Because they need to save “racist” for conservatives.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

The first 3 times are deductible...



> ...well... if you're *Canadian political royalty...*
> 
> Time will tell if Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s apology for wearing blackface will be accepted by Canadians. We do know he has not accepted similar apologies from his fellow Liberals facing charges of racism.​


Apology rejected.

Resignation accepted.


----------



## FeXL

Your Moral And Intellectual Superiors



> We are all Russian now.
> 
> Based on CTV's logic, if you tweet #TrudeauMustGo, #TrudeauCorruption apparently you're a Russian troll/bot.
> 
> By their logic, millions of Canadians are Russian trolls/bots! This is what they call "investigative news"?
> 
> These people are being paid a salary for such idiotic drivel! pic.twitter.com/QpCSPvCZZI
> 
> — Leonard Roxon (@LeonardRoxon) September 23, 2019​
> It’s not investigative reporting – it’s an intentional misinformation campaign and you’ll be hearing it everywhere this month: “The Russians are tweeting! the Russians are tweeting! Trust only your Liberal Pravda.”


The only people who are going to swallow this crap can't be reached anyways. Come October, let 'em go down in flames...


----------



## FeXL

I fail to see the problem...

Canadians Report Liberal Campaign Billboards Defaced with Trudeau-Style Blackface



> Canadians reported sightings this weekend of campaign signs and billboards across Canada defaced with markers to simulate blackface in a mocking reference to the scandal that engulfed Prime Minister Justin Trudeau last week when photos and videos of blackface performances from his younger days surfaced.


Perhaps the Progs would prefer images of the Kokanee Groper? Elbowgate? SNC Lavalin? Jody Wilson-Raybould? A veritable host of other gaffes, miscues & outright lies over the course of the clown's reign?

All fine by me.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Bad enough Liberals want your vote, they also want your home



> A Thursday ago, the Conservative Party of Andrew Scheer posted a tweet that probably answered why the CRA was likely digging for the information about the sale of our home, and likely the homes of millions of others.
> 
> The federal election is now only a month away, of course, so dirt digging is a big part of the game — especially this election.
> 
> And thus came the Tories’ tweet.
> 
> “@Justin Trudeau and @TOAdamVaughan have a secret plan to tax the sale of your home at 50%,” it reads. “This is Trudeau’s secret agenda: tax hikes to pay for his massive deficits. You work hard, you increase the value of your home, and the Liberals take 50%. How is that fair? #NotAsAdvertised.”
> 
> ...
> 
> The Tories even posted the Liberal document from 2018 outlining the plan.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Squirrel!!!

Canada's Trudeau pledges lower taxes, cellphone costs as blackface scandal hits him in polls



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau went on the offensive on Sunday, promising to cut middle-class taxes and slash cellphone costs if re-elected after polls showed he took a significant hit when photos emerged last week of him in blackface.


And, I imagine these promises will all end up in precisely the same place that his promise to balance the budget & for electoral reform (among others) ended up: Right in the crapper...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I fail to see the problem...
> 
> Canadians Report Liberal Campaign Billboards Defaced with Trudeau-Style Blackface
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the Progs would prefer images of the Kokanee Groper? Elbowgate? SNC Lavalin? Jody Wilson-Raybould? A veritable host of other gaffes, miscues & outright lies over the course of the clown's reign?
> 
> All fine by me.


Or, y'know, they could just threaten to shoot 'em... that's the mindset of some Conservative voters, apparently....

*McCrimmon Calls Out Sign About Shooting Liberals: ‘Politics Should Be Civil’*


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

<WHOOOOOSH>



CubaMark said:


> Or, y'know, they could just threaten to shoot 'em... that's the mindset of some Conservative voters, apparently....


----------



## FeXL

Twitter roasts Trudeau over Emmy tweet—says he should win best actor or best makeup



> A simple tweet celebrating Canadians being nominated for Emmys has led to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau being at the centre of a roasting competition.
> 
> Lots of Canadians up for #Emmys2019 – congratulations to all of you, and good luck tonight!
> — Justin Trudeau (@JustinTrudeau) September 23, 2019​
> Following last week’s scandal when it was revealed that the former drama teacher has a history of wearing blackface makeup, Canadians took it upon themselves to nominate the Prime Minister for best actor, as well as best costume and makeup.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Look! Another squirrel!!!

Justin Trudeau's Support Plummets 15 Points in Critical Ontario Province, So He Tries to Change the Subject By Ordering Gun Confiscation



> Support for Justin Trudeau plummets as poll shows Conservative rivals would win 35.5% of the national vote and the Liberals 32.9% in the wake of the Canadian PM's blackface scandal
> 
> ...
> 
> In Ontario, Canada's most populous province and a key to any party's hopes, the scandal has erased the 15-percentage-point lead the Liberals held, Graves said.​


Thucks to be Juthdin...



> *But Justin Trudeau has decided to change the subject by punishing the innocent.*
> 
> Justin Trudeau has tried to focus attention back on his re-election after a dramatic week in Canadian politics, in which the prime minister admitted to multiple images of him in brownface and not recalling how many times he had worn it.
> 
> The embattled Trudeau spent Friday walking the streets of east Toronto, posing for photos with residents and unveiling his party’s newest campaign pledge: a move to restrict handguns, ban assault-style rifles and begin buying back military-grade weapons that were legally purchased. He made the announcement near to the site of a gun rampage last year, when *Faisal Hussain shot 15 people, killing two.*​


Bold mine.

Damn Righty ****** & his AR's!!!


----------



## SINC

Well. they certainly get it!

*The Blistering Hypocrisy and Idiocy of Justin Trudeau*



> The so-called 'Brown Face Scandal' now pointlessly using up a news cycle will be fun for a few days. But my guess is that the left-wing bias in our media will give our erst-while so-called Prime Minister a pass that will allow him to live it down, much as they did the 'Grope Gate' and the SNC Scandals.
> 
> The reasons for this are simple; there are just way too many flaws in this pompous, arrogant, and basically retarded poser to be able to pin only one incidence of stupid on him and say "Ah ah! We got you on this, now!" Even today, barely two days after Brown Face broke, he was in Toronto, mugging for the cameras on Danforth Avenue (scene of a mass shooting last year), telling people how he will "prohibit semi-automatic assault rifles, allow cities to ban handguns," as if that will stop criminals from getting and using them!
> 
> This type of deflection, of which His Grand High Idiocy is a master, ranks right up there with his other 'profound' statements like, "the budget will balance itself," growing the economy "from the heart outwards," and "if you kill your enemies, they win." But then what can you say about a guy who apologized to and paid off (to the tune of $10.5 Million) a terrorist who murdered the soldiers of our ally, the United States, believes it's ok to have ISIS fighters return to Canada because "We know that actually someone who has engaged and turned away from that hateful ideology can be an extraordinarily powerful voice for preventing radicalization in future generations and younger people within the community," and is, at the same time, so 'humble' about his intellectual gifts that he refuses "to go around reciting Pi to the 19th decibel or you know wave my grades, or test scores to people." (decibel? whatever you say, Mr. Hawking).


More at the link.

https://www.linkedin.com/content-gu...uTJiJXW3Ox9ua6hRNvlYtuWJUaC2RffobVI2ktLnQKmO0


----------



## 18m2

According to the attached National Post article a Liberal minority government propped up by the NDP and/or Green Party could be the final nail in the TM pipeline. Both the NDP and Green say they want to stop the pipeline.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/co...rity/wcm/233a3d6d-6158-418e-82ff-8d17febade19


----------



## SINC

This Turd and anyone who votes for him, are out of their ever-lovin' minds.

*The dangers of Trudeau's 'postnational' Canada*

https://vancouversun.com/news/staff...74zxvQGYJcqyb_UBK1nEdzWrrgVozLDKICeTQ8sJCJ7VM


----------



## SINC

*Trudeau's contrite act is undone by his inane talking points*



> If anything rational can explain Trudeau’s odd performance at a Monday-morning press conference in Hamilton, Ont., perhaps it’s relief at those findings. Lucas Meyer, a radio reporter for Newstalk 1010 in Toronto, asked the PM a neat question about the video showing him capering around in blackface, apparently with something substantial shoved down the front of his trousers — namely, “what exactly was that costume?”
> 
> “I am continuing to be open with Canadians about the mistake I made,” Trudeau responded. “This is something that I take responsibility for. This is something that I should have known better, but didn’t. I will continue to work every day to fight racism, to fight discrimination, to fight intolerance in this country.”
> 
> Meyer tried again: “With all due respect, Prime Minister, that wasn’t even close to answering the question. What was that costume?”
> 
> “I have been open with Canadians, and I will continue to be open with Canadians,” Trudeau replied, eliciting various noises indicating astonishment from the assembled journalists. “I will continue to fight racism and intolerance every day.”


https://thestarphoenix.com/news/pol...YIFk1pRRWJVmmF5jtgb8zAeZbc#Echobox=1569476198


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> *Trudeau's contrite act is undone by his inane talking points*
> 
> https://thestarphoenix.com/news/pol...YIFk1pRRWJVmmF5jtgb8zAeZbc#Echobox=1569476198


Shades of the Harpoon era. Reminds me of the idiotic talking point response to the very serious concerns which thousands of Americans voiced about the Harpoon signing the FATCA IGA.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

A little history of Dust Bin & his old man.

Trudeau’s Blackface



> Singh told the Globe and Mail he is concerned that the blackface photos are an “ongoing pattern of behavior” for Mr. Trudeau and “raise questions about who the real Mr. Trudeau really is.” Mustafa Farooq of the National Council of Canadian Muslims told the newspaper that wearing brownface was a “reprehensible” act that “hearkens back to a history of racism, slavery, and an Orientalist mythology that is unacceptable.”


----------



## SINC

Good Ol' Rex nails the matter again!



> *Rex Murphy: The Liberals' 2050 net-zero carbon vow is pure delusion*
> 
> When leaders and adults willingly give subservience to the frenzy of children, the points of the rational compass are scrambled
> 
> It’s good to see the Prime Minstrel, as some wit on Twitter termed him, back on familiar waters. In their desperate fervour to chase away the images of Justin Trudeau in blackface, this week the Liberal campaign brought him out in a more familiar guise, paddling about on some sweet lake, and returning to the one element of his ferociously “woke” brand, P.M. Climate Superman, not in tatters.
> 
> The image could not have been more bucolic — the lone Voyager for Global Warming. Add a hooting owl or two on the soundtrack and another loon skipping along on the water and we’d be back to those classic Hinterland’s Who’s Who vignettes of the ’60s and ’70s.
> 
> He may have sworn off costumes and cosmetics, but it was clear from this little parable on film that campaigning by photo-op is still very much in the Liberal arsenal. It was the Liberal campaign’s way of signalling that there was still some gas (so to speak) in Mr. Trudeau’s global warming credentials. It didn’t seem to matter that no Liberal commitments to reduce carbon emissions, as CO2 is now designated, from when they were first made by Jean Chrétien in 1997, up to this present minute have been kept. (See Chris Selley’s column in the National Post this week.)
> 
> Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau canoes during a campaign stop at the Lake Laurentian Conservation Area in Sudbury, Ont., on Sept. 26, 2019. John Lappa/Postmedia News
> Nor did that broken record stop the campaign from yet another pledge, an outlandish promise of net-zero emissions by 2050, the achievement of which is either a fantasy or a fraud. It might be thought that a government that has a very spotty record concerning its promises of 2015 — balancing the budget by 2019, end of first-past-the-post, are but two eminent examples — would be wary of any fresh vows, particularly one whose due date is 31 years out.
> 
> But on global warming, such is the sponginess of the issue, and the ooze of righteousness that surrounds it, that politicians give themselves all sorts of licence to make promises that not only they have no hope of keeping, but they will be long, long, out of office, or even passed over to the exquisite atmosphere of heaven, or to the more sulphurous ambience of the other place, when the time comes to check their record. The 2050 pledge is pure delusion.
> 
> Sadly, many people are comfortable with delusions when it comes to global warming. What else are we to make of the phenomenon of a 16-year-old wandering or sailing the planet, a Joan of Arc of our times, being offered access to the highest deliberative chambers — at the UN, the U.S. Congress, the U.K. Parliament and others — to preach her naïve, testy, panic-laden message?
> 
> Sadly, many people are comfortable with delusions when it comes to global warming
> 
> Why is this 16-year-old of such assumed authority? Were there another 16-year-old available — and I’m sure there are — to preach the opposite, would the world’s legislatures and the world’s press be quite so supine in offering that teenager the same access, the same cringing deference, the same embarrassing applause as Greta Thunberg now harvests? Not a chance. For the present, and for reasons that cannot be fathomed, the young Swede is now the anointed one, and her dour, immature sermonettes a fresh gospel for our times.
> 
> Likewise with this strange masquerade of Greta’s climate strike. The term itself makes no sense. Just what is a climate strike? Is everyone to stay indoors and refuse all contact with nature? A strike is a withdrawal of services. Is it polite to ask of this vast theatrical: who is withdrawing what from whom? And how do people, youngsters, who do not work, go on strike in the first place? What’s the name of their union? Who will they picket? We all know that climate strike is just a cute phrase with nonsense at its core, but the world’s media, timid as usual, don’t question its nature or its obvious quality as modern-day propaganda for one side of the climate wars.
> 
> Friday wasn’t a strike: it was a day off school. It was that dream of every school kid, an unexpected holiday from the boring classroom. A day for youngsters to dance the streets and howl in all their innocence at parents and elders that they have “abandoned the Earth.” The entire movement under the leadership of the young Thunberg has something quite medieval about it, a children’s crusade for the 21st century. Nonetheless, school authorities, municipalities, even higher governments bowed to their student juniors, and sang hymns of praise to their courage and foresight and above all their “commitment.” Politicians in particular — from the First Canoeist to Ms. May and Mr. Singh — naturally wanted to be part of the chorus, to win the easy points that come from association with glum Greta.
> 
> Above all, this climate day frenzy is irrationalism sanctified. When leaders and adults willingly give subservience to children, when they willingly surrender leadership to the immature, when teachers become the pupils of their students, a great inversion is upon us. Up is down, East is West, the points of the rational compass are scrambled.
> 
> And on top of that we have an election.


https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...2HpTYc8by8iOcURO5IEt_dMJCQETLNhtPtzdkIdjC5-o0


----------



## SINC

Climate Barbie, a minister without a clue, without a plan and very unsure of her and her party's chances of being elected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruICf1Fgqks


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Toronto Star attempts Jedi mind trick...



> ...makes things worse for "*Prime Minstrel*"...
> 
> The new video clearly shows a Toucan and also Justin with a banana-like object stuffed down his pants.
> 
> The article *attempted to paint Justin’s detractors in a bad light* for having initially mistaken a Toucan’s bill for a banana on Justin’s t-shirt in the original grainy clip that surfaced.
> 
> I suspect the next media talking point will describe *Justin’s Banana Stuffing as cultural outreach*, an homage to Black Men.


Links' bold.

Related:

New Video Of Trudeau In Blackface Emerges



> A new video of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in blackface has emerged Saturday.
> 
> The video apparently depicts the same scene of Trudeau dancing and mugging for the camera that was captured in an earlier low-quality video of Trudeau. The latest video was featured in a story by The Post Millennial.


But, by all means, please vote for the racist bastard again!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Further on the Racist Minstrel Bastard.

Blackface Narcissus



> In the Canadian election, Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party has unveiled the centrepiece of its platform:
> 
> _A re-elected Liberal government with expand the_ Learn To Camp _program._
> 
> *Under the Learn To Camp program, every Canadian will be provided with a tub of boot polish, a novelty turban, a jewel to stick in your belly button, and genie slippers with curly toes, and trained how to swish across a Vancouver ballroom while asking other guests to tally your banana.*
> 
> Oh, wait, sorry, that was last week's Justin story. In America a ten-minute phone call to some fellow in Kiev is all the pretext you need for two years of multi-million-dollar investigation. But in Canada the news that the Prime Minister has spent half his adult life as the world's wokest mammy singer is just a blip in the day's news cycle, soon to be supplanted by a genuinely eye-catching scandal such as whether or not the Tory leader had a valid license from the Insurance Councils of Saskatchewan or the Canadian Association of Insurance Brokers back in 1997, or 1978, or whenever. You can understand why the Canadian media would rather stampede after the Andrew Scheer scandal: what journalist with a nose for a great red-meat story wouldn't prefer chasing down the officially approved accreditation from the Department of Paperwork's archives than, say, the fruiterer who supplies the Prime Minstrel with his trouser bananas. Was Justin accredited by the Minstrelsy Council of Quebec or the Canadian Association of Burnt Cork Fetishists? Would that make the story more interesting for the CBC et al?


Bold mine.

Snark as only Steyn can deliver it. :clap::clap::clap:

Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Defence minister ripped for attending gala honouring Chinese Communist Party anniversary



> Canada’s defence minister has drawn criticism for his recent appearance at a reception in Vancouver during which he stood on stage alongside the Chinese consul-general.
> 
> The gala event Sept. 22 at a restaurant in Chinatown was organized by the Chinese Benevolent Association of Vancouver, an umbrella organization for dozens of business and cultural associations, to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China.
> 
> Besides Sajjan, other attendees included Tong Xiaoling, the Chinese consul-general in Vancouver, and her deputies, as well as Bruce Ralston, B.C.’s minister of jobs, trade and technology, and George Chow, the B.C. minister of state for trade.


And yes, Bigot, Trump did send congratulations to China. That wasn't appropriate, either.


----------



## 18m2

1


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

This is my shocked face: 

Liberals’ $600-million cleantech fund is losing money and struggling to find investments



> The $600-million fund the federal Liberals created to invest in startups that use technology to fight climate change is losing money, and having difficulty finding companies in which to invest.
> 
> The fund, administered by the Business Development Bank of Canada (BDC), has invested in some firms that are failing to meet performance targets and that are at risk of defaulting, according to a year and a half of BDC’s financial documents and letters sent to cabinet ministers obtained by The Logic.
> 
> In January 2018, Innovation Minister Navdeep Bains announced $600 million in funding for BDC to create a cleantech portfolio that invests in startups so they can “hire new staff, develop products, support sales, and scale up and compete globally.”
> 
> The internal documents show those goals are not being met.


More:



> BDC says the losses it’s taking are standard for early-stage investments in the cleantech sector and *the riskier investments it’s making are fulfilling the mandate the government gave it.*


Bold mine.

Precisely what mandate would that be?

Pi$$ing away taxpayer $$$ yet again?

Thought so...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Don't forget: Progs see their hypocrisy as a feature, not a bug...

What a jackass



> Hypocrisy, thy name is Trudeau.
> 
> But that’s okay, though. Despite a massive amount of this campaign being about virtue signalling climate hysteria, this apparently wasn’t a secret.
> 
> Yes it is true. I believe they also had two planes in 2015. The advance plane carries the equipment, lights, flags, etc. for the leader’s rallies and events. (This was not a secret).
> 
> — Althia Raj (@althiaraj) October 3, 2019​
> That would be debate panelist Althia Raj….


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Lieberal Elite Collusion



> Does anyone think it isnt all rigged?


It most certainly is...

Two comments stand out for me:



> Sean M says:
> October 3, 2019 at 10:54 pm
> 
> Yeah, Andy Coyne, chinless wonder and loyal Katie Telford stooge… Telford has Coyne on speed dial… Coyne, the same prick that wrote about a 16 dollar orange juice signifying the literal end of the country. As for Blackie McTurdholes many scandals, crimes and mendacious governance along with disgraced sociopath Gerry the Butts resigning in scandal, well old Andy isn’t concerned about that in the least… Raj, Coyne a couple of Turdhole lickers on Katie Telfords short leash… Not only is the “debate” rigged so is the whole damn election. Western separation now.


and



> Thomas says:
> October 3, 2019 at 10:29 pm
> 
> So what? Was there ever any doubt that the Canadian media are in bed with the Liberals? They might as well go to dinner first.


<snort>


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Two comments stand out for me:


Coyne's weeping over "climate change" lost me a long time ago. He was begging Harper to institute a carbon tax as long as I remember. Essentially: "Complete my prog laundry list without the inconvenience of changing my conservative hat for a Liberal one."


----------



## eMacMan

https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...izen/wcm/77fc30c8-18a0-4d03-b14d-e2e4cc9570d5



> BEDFORD, N.S. — Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer says he never spoke publicly about being a dual Canadian-United States citizen because no one ever asked him.
> 
> Even when his colleagues were attacking politicians from other parties for their dual citizenships, he stayed silent.
> 
> The Globe and Mail first reported Thursday that the Tory leader’s father was born in the U.S. and therefore Scheer and his sisters received American citizenship as a result.
> 
> Scheer said he let his passport expire and met U.S. consular officials in August to begin the paperwork to renounce his American citizenship.


OK so now I am asking: Did Sheer file his 1040s all of his working life? Has he been filing his finCEN114s (aka FuBARs)? How about those 8938s? 5320s? Are his wife's life savings at risk because they have joint accounts?

Is the IRS going to bankrupt him for failing to file some or all of those penalty forms? 

Why did he say nothing when the Harpoon was ramming through the FATCA-IGA as part of a budget bill?

Looking forward to him standing before the US consulate holding his pants up with his left hand as he holds up his right hand to swear an oath of disloyalty to the USofA.


----------



## CubaMark

...and people wonder why Conservatives are seen, generally, to be intolerant and out of touch with modern Canadian society.... How is it possible that the insane belief that homosexuality is a _choice_ continues to be parroted by these fools?  

*B.C. candidate no longer with Conservatives after homophobic comments resurface*










A British Columbia candidate is no longer with the Conservatives after videos emerged in which she called LGBTQ people “perverted” and suggested that LGBTQ people “recruit” children.

Heather Leung, who was running for the Conservatives in Burnaby North-Seymour, has yet to address her past comments, including an interview she did with someone who underwent conversion therapy and another in which she slams a school board’s anti-bullying policy as a way to “promote homosexuality.”

The Conservatives confirmed late Friday that Leung is no longer with the party.

[....]

Leung, who described herself as a mother of three, said school boards can “disguise themselves as angels of light to promote (an) anti-bullying environment in school, but instead they are promoting homosexual, transsexual, all kinds of homosexual acts to children.”

Leung was among dozens of parents who protested the policy, which ordered schools to have a zero-tolerance approach for anti-LGBTQ language, encourage gay-straight alliances and encourage teachers to include LGBTQ issues in curriculum.

Leung said the policy was brought forward by “pro-gay” teachers and activists to “promote homosexuality.”

She added that those who drafted the policy were “digging a deep dark pit for the next generation, because these homosexual people, they cannot reproduce the next generation.”

Leung also indicated that LGBTQ people are “recruited.”

“They recruit more people and more people to their camp. So this is not fair. They are our children. They are not their children. They do not have the right to push our children into their camp,” she said.

(CTV New)​


----------



## 18m2

If I could vote for Rocky Dong I would just because his videos are over the top

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qsgmt5jYw[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

Do you ever wonder why socialists are seen, generally, as amoral perverts? Funny how that works...



CubaMark said:


> ...and people wonder why Conservatives are seen, generally, to be intolerant and out of touch with modern Canadian society...


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> If I could vote for Rocky Dong I would just because his videos are over the top
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qsgmt5jYw


Sounds good to me!


----------



## eMacMan

18m2 said:


> If I could vote for Rocky Dong I would just because his videos are over the top
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qsgmt5jYw


The PPC has a local candidate. Since the Liebarrels and the Conmen both answer to the über-banksters and other members of the super elite, it looks like the PPC will be getting my vote.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> The PPC has a local candidate. Since the Lieberals and the Conmen both answer to the über-banksters and other members of the super elite, it looks like the PPC will be getting my vote.


Then you may as well vote for The Turd, Bob. Either way, same result.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Then you may as well vote for The Turd, Bob. Either way, same result.



Sorry Don but both the Liebarrels and the Conmen are died in the wool Globalists. Can't vote for either party!


----------



## SINC

Ah well, then go ahead and vote for Turdeau by voting PPC.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Ah well, then go ahead and vote for Turdeau by voting PPC.




How charitable of you to give your permission for him to do this.


----------



## CubaMark

Should be interesting to hear from all those who complained about a "Drama teacher" becoming PM, or made fun of a US President who was a "community organizer"....


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> How charitable of you to give your permission for him to do this.


As usual that went completely over your head. Sigh. And a teacher too?

Bob is a big boy and gets the comment and the intent. You? Not so much.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Should be interesting to hear from all those who complained about a "Drama teacher" becoming PM, or made fun of a US President who was a "community organizer"....


Well lemme see . . . Scheer hasn't obstructed justice, ejected honourable women, groped female reporters, dressed in black or brown face, lied to us about deficits, played Mr. Dress-up in India, vacationed with a religious leader on his private island, told vets they are asking more than he can give and given SNC Lavalin special treatment. I could go on and on about pipelines and reserve water supplies, but hey, I still prefer him over that lying SOB Turdeau.


----------



## Macfury

You weak protests always skew to favour the left, CM. You never ragged Bam's meagre credentials.



CubaMark said:


> Should be interesting to hear from all those who complained about a "Drama teacher" becoming PM, or made fun of a US President who was a "community organizer"....


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

That would be a _substitute_ drama teacher. Try harder.

Who, if the rumour mill has any credibility at all, banged a 17 year old.

Interesting



> This is an extremely interesting exchange, wherein Trudeau says he did not sign a non-disclosure agreement when he left a teaching job mid-year pic.twitter.com/3YsSRZhQvL
> 
> — Robyn Urback (@RobynUrback) October 4, 2019​
> And interestinger.
> 
> So far:
> 1. @globeandmail not delivered today
> 2. #JustinTrudeau – not campaign today
> 3. @kinsellawarren tip off followers yesterday
> 4. There is an unprecedented past history of sexual groping, misogyny, #BlackfaceTrudeau, racism, Ethics Guilty -so anything possible with Trudeau
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) October 5, 2019​





CubaMark said:


> Should be interesting to hear from all those who complained about a "Drama teacher" becoming PM, or made fun of a US President who was a "community organizer"....


----------



## SINC

Here is that exchange on Twitter about the Globe and Mail story.



FeXL said:


> HWho, if the rumour mill has any credibility at all, banged a 17 year old.
> 
> Interesting
> 
> This is an extremely interesting exchange, wherein Trudeau says he did not sign a non-disclosure agreement when he left a teaching job mid-year pic.twitter.com/3YsSRZhQvL
> 
> — Robyn Urback (@RobynUrback) October 4, 2019
> 
> 
> And interestinger.
> So far:
> 1. @globeandmail not delivered today
> 2. #JustinTrudeau – not campaign today
> 3. @kinsellawarren tip off followers yesterday
> 4. There is an unprecedented past history of sexual groping, misogyny, #BlackfaceTrudeau, racism, Ethics Guilty -so anything possible with Trudeau
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) October 5, 2019


----------



## FUXL

Four more years. Please try separation you hurtin' albertans.


----------



## eMacMan

FUXL said:


> Four more years. Please try separation you hurtin' albertans.


Interesting whatever the choice at least 2/3rds of Canadians despise him/her. To paraphrase what I said when Hiliary and Trump faced off; "How do we get the very worst scum vying for the job of PM?"


----------



## FeXL

Well, if it ain't my ol' Priapus drivin', nose pickin', vegetative pal, Piggy!

Are these the same polls that predicted a sweep for Bill's Wife? Askin' for a friend.

SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIEEEEEE!!!!!



FUXL said:


> Four more years. Please try separation you hurtin' albertans.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further:

Justin Trudeau bombshell rumours a symptom of bad faith journalism



> *I tweeted what I know; that various sources from different media outlets, ex staffers of conservative politicians, as well as disgruntled ex Liberal war room strategists are swearing that there is a secured non-disclosure agreement and a semi-cooperative female witness. *


:love2:

Perfect...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

True North and Rebel News to court



> We are going to take the Leaders' Debates Commission to court on Monday.
> 
> Support True North: https://t.co/EHqfHA486q #cdnpoli #elxn43 pic.twitter.com/IoVlIvYhlm
> 
> — True North (@TrueNorthCentre) October 5, 2019
> 
> EMERGENCY: Our reporters @TheRealKeean & @TheMenzoid have been banned by Trudeau from attending the only English-language debate in this campaign. We’re sending lawyers to court on Monday for an emergency injunction. Details at https://t.co/A1HVDij0EA https://t.co/OoK3Z3tKej pic.twitter.com/E7NUPYYlaX
> 
> — Ezra Levant 🍁 (@ezralevant) October 5, 2019​


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The first French debate shows Canada sliding back into some dangerous habits



> On Wednesday a television network in Quebec held a debate. Only four leaders were invited, although there were six parties with seats in Parliament when the election was called.
> 
> Although the Green party and the nascent People’s party are each running candidates in more than 300 ridings across the country, neither was asked to take part. On the other hand, Yves-François Blanchet’s Bloc Québécois, which is contesting seats only in Quebec, was welcomed on stage with the Liberal, Conservative and New Democratic Party leaders.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further yet...

Live and don't learn



> His father's arrogance... his mother's, well... you know...
> 
> His autobiography says “West Point Grey was not the best fit for me as a teacher, nor I for them.”
> 
> "When the blackface scandal first broke, CTV political journalist Don Martin said Trudeau told him as a backbench MP *he would never run as PM* because he had *too many secrets*."​


----------



## FeXL

As I noted before: Still too many ideological idiots...

Only 25% think Trudeau should get a second term



> It’s not good news for Justin Trudeau and the Liberals as they head into the English language leaders debate on Monday night: Just 25% of the country believes he deserves to be re-elected.
> 
> That is one of the findings of a poll conducted for the Toronto Sun as part of the DART & Maru/Blue Voice Canada Poll.
> 
> When asked if it is time for a change in government or if the government deserved to be re-elected, 55% said it was time for a change compared to 25% who indicated Trudeau and the Liberals had done a good job. That number sits well below the percentage of the voting public that says they are likely to cast a ballot for the Liberals in two weeks time.
> 
> That’s a worrying figure for the Liberals, say polling experts, because it speaks to a less motivated voter base.


SOOOOOUUUUUIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!

h/t SDA, whose comments are salient.

Related:

I dunno, "Mr I Work For...



> ...a Conglomerate" that slurps up over a billion dollars in federal subsidies every year...
> 
> Traveling on Liberal party campaign bus, about to make a pit stop in Odessa, Ontario. Liberals pulled in to service stop, saw Andrew Scheer’s bus on the parking lot, and headed straight back out to the highway without stopping. Reporters on board asking: what are you afraid of?​
> Is there anything out there on the intertubes that might be making the Boy Emperor feel a little jumpy?


Hmmm...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Hey, Piggy!!! Still gonna vote for this bastard?

Trudeau is rumored to be in talks with an accusor to suppress an explosive sex scandal



> *Ottawa’s longest-tenured political observers had been expecting a career-ending expose in Sunday’s edition of The Globe and Mail — but that story never came. Sources are now telling The Chronicle that Trudeau is in private talks with the principal source of that piece to suppress explosive sex allegations that, if made public, would likely force Trudeau to resign his office.
> 
> Trudeau’s accuser is said to be a former student at West Point Grey Academy and the daughter of a wealthy Canadian businessman. Sources tell The Chronicle that she is being represented by counsel and is being offered monetary compensation in exchange for a pending, but not yet signed, non-disclosure agreement.*


Bold mine.

More:



> Trudeau worked as a substitute teacher at the private school from 1999 until an abrupt and poorly explained departure in June of 2001. At the time of his departure he hired his father’s lawfirm, Heenan Blaikie, to represent him in the matter. The firm issued a bizarre statement that denied that Trudeau was leaving his part-time position in order to pursue public speaking opportunities. He was 29 years old.


Seems a bit excessive just for quitting a job, no?

SOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Surprising absolutely no one. Well, maybe the Progs...

Remember how selling "TruDope"...



> ...was gonna shut down all those criminal gangs?
> 
> York police say they’ve made three arrests related to what they describe as a major marijuana grow-op with links to organized crime.
> 
> Rongchi Tan, 56, of Oshawa, Rui Min Zhen, 31, of King Township, and Chang Jie Yu, of Markham, are facing several charges including producing cannabis and possession for the purpose of distribution.​


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Can't be taking any money away from the ilegal aliens now, can we?

Federal government cuts reimbursements for military health care, hospitals on the hook for millions



> The federal government has quietly rolled back what it pays hospitals to take care of military members, according to multiple sources.
> 
> Global News has confirmed with sources within the military, provincial and federal governments that the federal government made major changes this spring to the fees it reimburses to hospitals when they provide health care to military members — and that’s leading to fears some members could be denied health care services.
> 
> *Under the Canada Health Act and provincial health acts, members of the military are not eligible for public health coverage under provincial plans.
> 
> Instead, the federal government is constitutionally responsible for providing comparable medical care to all members...*


Bold mine.

Gawd, I jes' luvs me some good, ol' fashioned, socialized medicare...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The correct response would have been, "Because I'm a lying, hypocritical, post-national racist asshole who should hold myself to the same standards I hold everyone else to but because I'm a spineless progressive prick I won't..."

Adorable Tykes Ask Justin Trudeau: 'Why Did You Paint Your Face Brown?'



> While appearing on a Facebook Watch series called New Mom, Who Dis?, Trudeau took questions from some little kids. Including these two girls, who seem to take him by surprise:
> 
> "Why did you paint your face brown?"
> 
> "Ooooh. Um, it was something I shouldn't have done, 'cause it hurt people. Um, it's not something that, uh, you, you should do. Uh, and that is something that I learned. I didn't know it back then, but I know it now. And I'm sorry I hurt people."
> 
> "But did you paint your nose _and_ your hands brown?"
> 
> "Mm-hm. Yeah. And it was the wrong thing to do."​
> Yikes. That was so cringey, I _almost_ feel bad for him.
> 
> This answer will be sufficient, because Trudeau isn't a conservative. His apology will be accepted, because it's not politically advantageous to reject it. But it's good to see that these kids have enough self-respect to look this guy in the eye and ask what he was thinking. *They're already overqualified for a career in journalism.*


Bold mine.

Nails it.


----------



## SINC

*Brian Jean: It's up to Ontario's voters to save Canada from Trudeau*

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/c...T2uEpwK4TDJ39J5jEKdcfJbz9o6JMvW63Yksj1B7FhEVc


----------



## SINC

*Trudeau attempts to rewrite history on SNC-Lavalin*



> The most troubling part of Justin Trudeau’s attempt to rewrite history on the SNC-Lavalin affair is it’s a sign the prime minister may be prepared to politically interfere again in a criminal prosecution.
> 
> Trudeau claimed during Monday’s televised leaders debate the original Globe and Mail story that ran in February was "false." He made the surprise comment after Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer reminded Trudeau he looked Canadians in the eye the day the story ran and flat out lied when he said the allegations were false.
> 
> Trudeau’s reply to Scheer on Monday: "They were false." It was a surprising comment because even Trudeau had stopped making that claim months ago, after it became clear the story was accurate.
> 
> *Not only did Trudeau and senior federal officials attempt repeatedly to pressure then-attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould to drop criminal charges against the Montreal-based company in 2018, he’s back to lying about it.
> 
> It’s stunning.*
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau admitted as far back as March, during a news conference, he asked then-Attorney General of Canada Jody Wilson-Raybould if “she could revisit” her decision not to overrule the director of public prosecutions on the SNC-Lavalin case.
> 
> The politics on this issue is easy to understand. In Quebec, the SNC-Lavalin affair doesn’t resonate like it does in the rest of Canada. Quebec voters accept Trudeau’s explanation he was merely trying to "save jobs." They see nothing wrong with a prime minister interfering in a criminal prosecution.
> 
> Trudeau has strong support in Quebec. He needs a solid showing there Oct. 21 if he wants to be re-elected. Pushing back and claiming the original reports on the issue were false is good politics in la belle province.
> 
> On the legal side, it’s more problematic.
> 
> The original Globe and Mail story, which alleged Trudeau and senior federal officials attempted to interfere in the case, was not false. It was accurate, and it was proven so repeatedly, including through an ethics commissioner investigation and by Trudeau himself.
> 
> Trudeau admitted as far back as March, during a news conference, he asked Wilson-Raybould if "she could revisit" her decision not to overrule the director of public prosecutions on the SNC-Lavalin case. He also acknowledged his staff continued to pursue the matter for months with Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> His principal secretary, Gerald Butts (since resigned), and then-clerk of the privy council Michael Wernick (since retired), both confirmed in their testimony at the Commons justice committee that senior staff pursued Wilson-Raybould on the matter. They said it was a "policy" matter, and they were trying to save jobs.
> 
> Gerald Butts, former principal secretary to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, prepares to appear before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights regarding the SNC Lavalin Affair, on Parliament Hill in Ottawa on Wednesday, March 6, 2019.
> 
> Individual criminal prosecutions are not "policy" matters. They are prosecution cases handled by independent Crown attorneys. Decisions about when and how to prosecute are made, or should be made, independent of elected officials and partisanship. The protection of prosecutorial independence against improper political influence has been ruled on by the Supreme Court of Canada and is enshrined in law.
> 
> There’s good reason: if politicians are allowed to interfere in criminal prosecutions, elected officials in government could prosecute their enemies and protect their friends. It would be a gross violation of the rule of law and would lead to corruption and a breakdown of our justice system.
> 
> Even a hint of political interference in a criminal prosecution should be stamped out immediately.
> 
> That’s why Trudeau’s continual claims he did nothing wrong on the SNC-Lavalin case, and his most recent pushback on it, are extremely troubling.
> 
> Canadians have a sitting prime minister who sees nothing wrong with politicians interfering in criminal prosecutions. It doesn’t matter what the justification is. It’s never acceptable for a prime minister or members of cabinet to attempt to influence the outcome of a criminal case.
> 
> The only exception is the oversight responsibility of attorneys general who can, in rare cases, overturn the decision of the director of public prosecutions. By law, any such directive would have to be made public and published in the Canada Gazette. It’s never been done at the federal level, for good reason.
> 
> *So what’s stopping Trudeau, if he’s re-elected, from trying this again, either with SNC-Lavalin or some other company facing criminal charges?
> 
> Nothing. According to him, it’s just a policy matter. If he believes he has a good reason to interfere in the outcome of a criminal prosecution, he’ll do it.
> 
> Maybe next time, he’ll succeed.*


https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/s...g6NCtqFopEi0voV1JlZKJkU8#.XZ-qZBRoQ4w.twitter


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Trudeau has strong support in Quebec. He needs a solid showing there Oct. 21 if he wants to be re-elected. Pushing back and claiming the original reports on the issue were false is good politics in la belle province.​


First, how many Kaybeckers will even care that he's lying?
Second, of those that do, how many will even see this story?


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

And once again, all humour posted by CM favours the most socialist candidates--even if he supposedly hates them all. This part-time wokeness is a fascinating condition.


----------



## SINC

Singh will never become PM wearing that costume.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> And once again, all humour posted by CM favours the most socialist candidates--even if he supposedly hates them all. This part-time wokeness is a fascinating condition.


Singh is far too centrist for my liking, but any move away from the right is good for us all.


----------



## Macfury

Good thing Singh is tanking.



CubaMark said:


> Singh is far too centrist for my liking, but any move away from the right is good for us all.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Singh will never become PM wearing that costume.


Jeebus, SINC! Sometimes you're like that uncle that we have to invite to Thanksgiving every year, but dread having to listen to his rants.

"costume".

Sigh.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> Jeebus, SINC! Sometimes you're like that uncle that we have to invite to Thanksgiving every year, but dread having to listen to his rants.
> 
> "costume".
> 
> Sigh.


Sure, go ahead and change the word to turban if ya like it better. 

Then show me the prediction is not reality.


----------



## eMacMan

Sorry but Sikhs are very much in the minority in Canada. Since every religious sect is absolutely certain they have it right, and that every other cult(ure) is not only wrong but eternally damned, I would suggest the NDP chances with Singh at the helm are best described as a snowballs chance in hell.

That is reality. Even though most of us may not be overtly religious, most of us had those teachings instilled from birth and for most they are almost impossible to over ride.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


>




Exactement, as the French would say.


----------



## Macfury

You'll also learn that the NDP is tanking in this election. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Exactement, as the French would say.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Exactement, as the French would say.


I guess Freddie finds the NDP an appealing choice as his appalling mathematical (in)abilities appear almost mediocre when compared to NDP math.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Well, we have reached our high for the day already at 6°.




Wrong thread much?


----------



## Macfury

Thar's the chilly reception Singh is getting from voters across Canada.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Wrong thread much?


----------



## 18m2

We went to the advance pole Friday afternoon and voted. There were no voters there except for us two. Must have been a dozen workers bored out of their minds.

Do you think voter turn out might be low?

I don't think anything is going to happen in the next week to make me to want to change my vote.


----------



## macintosh doctor

18m2 said:


> We went to the advance pole Friday afternoon and voted. There were no voters there except for us two. Must have been a dozen workers bored out of their minds.
> 
> Do you think voter turn out might be low?
> 
> I don't think anything is going to happen in the next week to make me to want to change my vote.


I voted today, same situation but to be honest it is thanksgiving weekend.. i am not concerned but I voted and voted to oust the jihadist prime minister out of power.


----------



## SINC

I voted Friday morning and the single poll in our city was jammed to the doors with people voting, this at 11:00 a.m. just two hours after they opened. As we were leaving the parking lot was filling up rapidly with vehicles. While there were a lot of seniors, about half the crowd were anywhere from 50 and down with lots of young guys there in 20s and 30s.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Wrong thread much?


Yeah sorry, I made a mistake, apologies. Kinda like you did voting for Notley, the 40% math mistake etc. 'Cept of course I said I am sorry.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Yeah sorry, I made a mistake, apologies. Kinda like you did voting for Notley, the 40% math mistake etc. 'Cept of course I said I am sorry.




Well, good for you, Don. But you don’t have to be sorry for making a mistake.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> Well, good for you, Don. But you don’t have to be sorry for making a mistake.


Yep, you've made that clear many times.


----------



## Dr.G.

18m2 said:


> We went to the advance pole Friday afternoon and voted. There were no voters there except for us two. Must have been a dozen workers bored out of their minds.
> 
> Do you think voter turn out might be low?
> 
> I don't think anything is going to happen in the next week to make me to want to change my vote.


I voted today and voting was brisk at my district poll table. Had to wait, and I was told that the wait was not as bad this afternoon as it was the previous three days. People in my riding have some good candidates running, which helped to bring out the voters.


----------



## Beej

Dr.G. said:


> I voted today and voting was brisk at my district poll table. Had to wait, and I was told that the wait was not as bad this afternoon as it was the previous three days. People in my riding have some good candidates running, which helped to bring out the voters.


Voted yesterday, and only a couple others were there. Advance voting is up this election:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/advance-voting-1.5320275

But it will be hard to top 2015 turnout (68%).
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=ele&dir=turn&document=index&lang=e


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further on the lying, racist bastard.

Trudeau's yearbook tells a bigger story



> Flipping through the pages of the 2000 and 2001 West Point Grey Academy (WPGA) yearbooks, we see a different side of our progressive prime minister.
> 
> The shocking image of Justin Trudeau with painted black skin and a large white turban shows that, as the 29-year-old celebrity son of a former Prime Minister, Trudeau was hardly a serious person, let alone a mature role model or teacher.
> 
> The cringe-worthy blackface photo at the Arabian Nights gala fundraiser is just one example. Trudeau’s photo is featured over and over again in the yearbook, smiling and hanging out — looking more like a teenage student than a teacher in his late twenties.


h/t & related (for the comments):

What Does A Frenchman Wear Under His Kilt?

Like this one:



> The Turd just paid 2.5 million to a lady so she would remain silent about the Turd Bangin her when she was his 17 YR old student


But I'm sure you Prog ideologs will still vote for the scumbag.

Oh, and while we're at it, more on that excuse of a human being getting a law firm to explain that he's leaving one teaching job & moving on to another:

He Experienced It Differently



> I was a managing partner of Ottawa office of a national law firm — never in my 34 years did our law firm issue a statement to explain that a client is leaving teaching position.
> 
> Law firms get retained for very serious matters.
> 
> We are not publicists for celebrities. https://t.co/VQXEewHtkb
> 
> — Manny_Ottawa (@manny_ottawa) October 11, 2019​


My lovely bride has changed schools a couple times over the years. Didn't go to a lawyer for any of 'em. Then again, she hadn't banged any 17 year olds, either...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Not exactly going out on a limb here, but federally I predict a minority gov’t, could be Liberal or Conservative, where the NDP hold the balance of power either way. Never underestimate a party just because they’re not in first place.


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Piggy!!!

Trudeau drops, Singh bounces as voters turn from Liberals



> It’s a nightmare situation for Justin Trudeau and the Liberals — the Bloc and NDP are rising and taking support straight from his camp.
> 
> The latest poll conducted for _the Sun_ as part of the DART Maru/Blue Voice Canada Poll shows the Conservatives sitting at 33% support nationally, the Liberals dropping to 28% and the NDP rising to 20%.


SOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUIIIIIIIEEEEEEE!!!!!


----------



## FeXL

Everyone's running against the Tories. Even the Tories



> As Canada’s worst election ever staggers toward the finish line, a theme has finally emerged. Despite the best efforts of the party leaders to say nothing coherent or true at any point, we know what it’s about. Everyone is running against the Tories. Including the Tories. Makes you wonder what they’re so afraid of.
> 
> Jagmeet Singh let the cat out of the bag about the theme when he confessed that yes, should his party unaccountably fail to win a majority of seats for the 18th straight time since its 1961 founding, he would consider a coalition with … Oh come off it. We all know the answer. Another of the three social democratic parties in this election, trading ferocious rhetorical barbs over trivial differences.
> 
> The NDP, Greens and Liberals are basically similar people ideologically and even sociologically, especially since the NDP’s old CCF religious Prairie populist wing flapped off to join the Tories. Truth be told, the Bloc are similar, too. The separatist thing is a bit awkward but not fatal, as Stéphane Dion’s hapless Blunderall coalition proved. Besides, who among us wouldn’t pander to Quebec?


Nails it.

h/t SDA, from whence comes this prescient comment:



> All Canadians have to vote for is varying shades of Communism. The CPC has become the old PC party of Joe Clark and Kim McTwit,


Nails it, as well.

Saw a Liberal ad on TV last nite for the first time this election. They were fear mongering by throwing Scheep in with Ford & Harper. Seriously? That's all they got? And this is going to convince Prog airheads to vote for them? 

This country is well & truly fukced. 

Vote for the fukcers & give the left what it truly wants, good & hard. The sooner we hit bottom, the sooner we can start recovering...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Things You’ll Never See On The CBC



> Former senior aide to Hillary Clinton and former Clinton Foundation advisor Justin Cooper was one of the organizers of an exclusive New York City fundraiser held for Justin Trudeau’s Liberal Party of Canada, True North has learned.
> 
> According to a source, Cooper was involved in organizing the New York fundraiser for Trudeau’s re-election bid.
> 
> As Blacklock’s reported on Tuesday, the fundraising event for Liberal expatriates living in New York City was held on October 10 at an unknown address. While all political donations must be publicly disclosed, the deadline for reporting donors to Elections Canada is not until two months after the election.
> 
> […]
> 
> Cooper is the notorious staffer who was responsible for setting up a private email for Clinton during her time as Secretary of State in the Obama Administration, which some say cost her the bid for the presidency. Clinton’s private server was registered to “Justin Cooper.”
> 
> According to reports at the time, Copper had “no security clearance and no particular expertise in safeguarding computers, according to three people briefed on the server setup.”​
> Small world.


Again, from the comments:



> Nice scam, if you can get away with it, and we all know Butts and Turdhole will get away with it… Andrew Scheer’s Dad was American and the Media believe that to be a huge negative story for the Cons and that every voter should be aware of this “serious” issue, but Libranos “fund raising” in the States is all good. Hey maybe this is why TurdholeButts rewarded the Clinton Foundation with millions of Canadian taxpayer dollars, nice kickback scheme ya got there… better and safer than using fake advertising firms in Quebec to launder taxpayer cash. What a corrupt ****hole this country has become. The fix is in.


----------



## Rps

Okay, so here is my guess on seat totals..

Libs=146
Cons=118
NDP=30
Bloc=40
PPC=1
Ind=3

Have at it.


----------



## FeXL

Ind: 2
PPC: 1
Various degrees of Commies: 335...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Justin Trudeau, Champion of National Unity



> “Québecers need to stand up and fight against those like Jason Kenney and Doug Ford and other conservative politicians,” Trudeau said while looking for votes in Montreal.
> 
> More here…..


Please, please, please vote for this idiot & let's bring this nation to its knees!

Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Faux-Ebony & Ebony, Living Together in Harmony



> Obama loves his Shiny Pony!


I'm just trying to figger which is which...

Comments also dead-on.


----------



## eMacMan

Okay foreign nations interfering in elections is an impeachable offense at least according to the US Democrypts. Which should explain this bit of news.
https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...eral-election-urges-canadians-to-vote-trudeau

All right BO should be in jail for urging undocumented aliens to vote in the 2016 presidential election. He should also be in the slammer for this crap.



> OTTAWA — Former U.S. president Barack Obama is urging Canadians to re-elect Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau. If it's wrong for the Russkies it's wrong for BO and the rest of the Democryptic clowns.
> 
> In a message Wednesday on Twitter, Obama said that while he was president he was proud to work with Trudeau. He called him a “hard-working, effective leader” who has taken on major issues like climate change.
> 
> “The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbours to the north support him for another term,” Obama wrote.


----------



## Rps

Is it just me or is it about time we should consider having the CBC withdraw from news broadcasts..... I might relent of local broadcasts but I would bet the viewership/listenership is microscopic compared to private broadcasters. But the chances of that are what....1 in 600 million.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> But the chances of that are what....1 in 600 million.


Closer to 1.2 billion...


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Is it just me or is it about time we should consider having the CBC withdraw from news broadcasts..... I might relent of local broadcasts but I would bet the viewership/listenership is microscopic compared to private broadcasters. But the chances of that are what....1 in 600 million.


No way a government-funded entity should be broadcasting news. 

At this point, I continue to wonder what the purpose of CBC is at all. If we want to continue fund the CBC, why are they broadcasting 24/7? Couldn't they broadcast a limited slate of products for just a few hours each day?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> At this point, I continue to wonder what the purpose of CBC is at all.


You silly! It's to push the Liberal narrative!!!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> You silly! It's to push the Liberal narrative!!!


That narrative is so under-represented, it certainly needs a boost.


----------



## Rps

MacFury, I somewhat agree. I take a pragmatic view with respect to the CBC. I think their radio is very good, the TV no so much. So , when we look at what we spend on the TV portion....what is the viewership......probably not worth the cost. I would love to see a per capital cost for each TV show.

I like the “box-set” test....what CBC show would you buy a box-set of........

As for radio, they broadcast in about 40 different languages....mostly indigenous languages for the North. I can accept sponsorship there as no other scenario would be commercially viable.

Mostly TV is a time slot filler. We have a half hour local news here at 6pm Monday to Friday. At 11 pm the CBC thinks we are really interested in Toronto news....same on the weekend...CTV, on the other hand carries local news in those time slots.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MacFury, I somewhat agree. I take a pragmatic view with respect to the CBC. I think their radio is very good, the TV no so much. So , when we look at what we spend on the TV portion....what is the viewership......probably not worth the cost. I would love to see a per capital cost for each TV show.
> 
> I like the “box-set” test....what CBC show would you buy a box-set of........
> 
> As for radio, they broadcast in about 40 different languages....mostly indigenous languages for the North. I can accept sponsorship there as no other scenario would be commercially viable.
> 
> Mostly TV is a time slot filler. We have a half hour local news here at 6pm Monday to Friday. At 11 pm the CBC thinks we are really interested in Toronto news....same on the weekend...CTV, on the other hand carries local news in those time slots.


I can see the radio service as making a much better case for public support--and at a fraction of the TV budget.

CBC-TV sometimes brags about vast audiences and at other times about niche programming targeting splinter audience groups--they want it both ways. Regarding the "Box Set" test, I would buy nothing produced in the last 25 years.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> Okay, so here is my guess on seat totals..
> 
> Libs=146
> Cons=118
> NDP=30
> Bloc=40
> PPC=1
> Ind=3
> 
> Have at it.


Libs=121
Cons=151
NDP=24
Bloc=39
PPC=1
Ind=2


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Libs=121
> Cons=151
> NDP=24
> Bloc=39
> PPC=1
> Ind=2


A bit optimistic on the PCs Sinc, but I’m hopeful. The issue is who forms....so will the NDP and Greens back the Libs to form the government. I have a friend who predicts that the minority government will fall early and we’d be back at the polls in April. I’m finding it hard to disagree with him.


----------



## SINC

Rps said:


> A bit optimistic on the PCs Sinc, but I’m hopeful. The issue is who forms....so will the NDP and Greens back the Libs to form the government. I have a friend who predicts that the minority government will fall early and we’d be back at the polls in April. I’m finding it hard to disagree with him.


Well, Monday will tell the tale won't it?


----------



## SINC

*Names of SNC employees, executives behind thousands of dollars in illegal Liberal Party donations revealed*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sn...LZDsSAX4epBaWV39xzLpHGew8p-CvImCtBs8G3zmI-Hgs


----------



## SINC

It ought to be a very interesting day in Edmonton today. Greta The Grouch is going to discover that not only do Albertans not like her, they intend to show her by holding a counter demonstration today at the legislature.

*Alberta truck convoy plans counter-protest to climate rally with Greta Thunberg*



> A group of oil and gas supporters is planning a counter-rally when Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg shows up at the Alberta legislature in Edmonton on Friday.
> 
> Glen Carritt, who organized the United We Roll convoy that travelled to Ottawa in February, said a similar convoy will start in Red Deer, Alta., on Friday morning and make its way to Edmonton.
> 
> Carritt said the trucks are expected to arrive at the legislature at noon MT, when a climate rally is to begin with Thunberg, 16, who founded the Fridays For Future climate strikes that have galvanized young people around the world.
> 
> He said Albertans in the oil and gas sector are frustrated with celebrities visiting the province and telling them how to run their business.
> 
> 'Tired of celebrities'
> 
> "We in the province of Alberta are tired of celebrities coming into our province and trying to tell us how to run our oil and gas sector," read a post on the United We Roll Facebook page.
> 
> "I am asking everyone connected to the oil and gas industry to come out in unity to show Greta we do not need her yelling at us."
> 
> Thunberg has been making international headlines, meeting with politicians and leading protests demanding governments take action to address climate change.
> 
> The Swedish teen was spotted on Stephen Avenue in downtown Calgary on Wednesday morning.
> 
> She told a Radio-Canada reporter who saw her that she had no public events planned in Calgary and would travel to Edmonton within hours.
> 
> Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said Thunberg has not asked for a meeting. He has scheduled a visit Friday to a power plant near Edmonton that is switching from coal to cleaner natural gas.
> 
> Kenney said he hopes Thunberg recognizes efforts made by the province's oil and gas industry to reduce its emissions.
> 
> He said the world continues to depend on fossil fuel energy, and it's better that Canada supply it rather than countries such as Saudi Arabia or Russia.
> 
> "I'd hold out hope that anybody would be willing to look at the objective data, which is that Alberta has the highest environment, human rights and labour standards of any other major energy producer on Earth," Kenney said.
> 
> Opposition NDP Leader Rachel Notley said members of her caucus were at another climate rally at the legislature last month, and it's possible they will be there on Friday as well.
> 
> "I think it's quite ridiculous that the minister of environment wouldn't be there," she said. "I think that whether they agree or not, they should be there to talk to them."
> 
> Notley said she was "appalled" to see pro-oil signs placed in legislature windows at the last climate rally as a means of "trolling" protesters.
> 
> Edmonton climate strike organizer Olivier Adkin-Kaya said there's a lot of excitement among environmentalists about Thunberg's visit, but he recognizes many in Alberta don't embrace her views.
> 
> "People are saying hopefully she's going to China, hopefully she'll go to Saudi Arabia, where the human rights are being violated," he said.
> 
> "But it's really important we take a place of leadership globally and show that yes, it can be done. We can reduce greenhouse gas emissions and prevent the irreversible catastrophe of the climate crisis."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/greta-thunberg-edmonton-alberta-counterprotest-1.5324949


----------



## SINC

Yep, right on!


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## SINC

*Scheer promising carbon tax will be history by January if he gets majority*

https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...570-41f0-8af6-f5280d1ee322#Echobox=1571337514


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> *Names of SNC employees, executives behind thousands of dollars in illegal Liberal Party donations revealed*


Quelle surprise.

Doesn't matter. The Prog faithful will still vote for the bastards...


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> *Scheer promising carbon tax will be history by January if he gets majority*


I'd have a lot more faith in Andy 2% (Liberal Lite) if he didn't subscribe to Globull Warming in the first place...


----------



## SINC

*Andrew Scheer calls for ban on import of oil from Saudi Arabia*

https://globalnews.ca/video/4586547...-qnaQs6s1IjuD72gu1Qt0sP9DFj0hqOCH2uNfNObDSp4Y


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> *Scheer promising carbon tax will be history by January if he gets majority*
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...570-41f0-8af6-f5280d1ee322#Echobox=1571337514


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark, it just shows how out of touch you are that you believe being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize confers any legitimacy on someone's opinions.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> CubaMark, it just shows how out of touch you are that you believe being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize confers any legitimacy on someone's opinions.


The Nobel Peace Prize is a joke. Kissinger has it. DeKlerk has it. Obama got it on spec, for crissakes.

What does this have to do with the Peace Prize?


----------



## Macfury

Sorry, I meant the Nobel Prize in general. On anything short of pure science it bestows prizes to reward political correctness.



CubaMark said:


> The Nobel Peace Prize is a joke.


----------



## SINC

*Trudeau has failed. Voters should toss him out*

https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...Sm4pDBNgTHC0kakw3tm4Ze06j0#Echobox=1571418077


----------



## Rps

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

https://www.theatlantic.com/letters...voters-have-more-options-than-trudeau/600202/


----------



## 18m2

SINC said:


> *Trudeau has failed. Voters should toss him out*


Unfortunately I don't think the Canadian electorate has the will to send Trudeau packing probably because all the other options are not appealing.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

18m2 said:


> Unfortunately I don't think the Canadian electorate has the will to send Trudeau packing probably because all the other options are not appealing.




Particularly the Cabbage Patch Kid—er, I mean, Andrew Scheer option.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

Did Kenney say something about Thurnberg that I missed, Freddie?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Imagine the media outrage...



> ...if Donald Trump said something complimentary about Canadian Conservatives...
> 
> Trudeau *did not directly answer* when asked if he or anyone on his campaign sought the Obama endorsement, according to the Canadian Press.​
> Sought, wheedled, begged... ...why can't Justin Trudeau ever just answer a simple question?


Links' bold.


----------



## Freddie_Biff




----------



## Macfury

You have a very low opinion of Alberta, Freddie.


----------



## 18m2

As a fan of the Game of Thrones series I though this analogy was interesting. I sure it doesn't fit everyone's beliefs about their chosen party.


----------



## Macfury

Yeah, those charts are fun, but they are so easily switched around. The Greens have no reasonable plan to save anyone, for example.


----------



## FUXL

*Seat projection*

I've been busy working against a specific conservative problem candidate to make sure they do not get elected. Hence my projections for this election being a bit late (remember who won the last thread projection in 2015 - *Lil'ol me!*):

Libs=172
Cons=103
NDP=35
Bloc=26
Green=2

Four more years, and then Prime Minster Freeland takes over.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> You have a very low opinion of Alberta, Freddie.


It's about to get lower. Ask him about the upcoming teacher's strike because Kenney wants 'em to take a 5% pay cut. Mebbe if Red Rachel hadn't hired 60,000 public service workers to vote for her, there'd be money in the coffers for education...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> It's about to get lower. Ask him about the upcoming teacher's strike because Kenney wants 'em to take a 5% pay cut. Mebbe if Red Rachel hadn't hired 60,000 public service workers to vote for her, there'd be money in the coffers for education...


I thought it was a 40% pay cut.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> I thought it was a 40% pay cut.


LOL. I don't know how many years they're proposing...


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Coulda Had Max



> The Stupid Party;
> 
> Warren Kinsella's Daisy Group consulting firm was behind a social media campaign to put the People's Party of Canada (PPC) on the defensive and keep leader Maxime Bernier out of the federal leaders' debates, according to documents provided to CBC News. The documents outline the work done by several employees of Daisy on behalf of an unnamed client. A source with knowledge of the project told CBC News that client was the Conservative Party of Canada. The plan was first reported Friday night by the Globe and Mail.​
> Nice work, Andy.
> 
> You hired a Liberal to attack members of your base.
> 
> And then said Liberal lets it “leak”.
> 
> Quelle surprise!
> 
> ****ing moron.


Told ya they're all commies, with the sole difference being the degree...


----------



## Beej

Scheer stupidity. Mudslinging is part of politics, but spending money on a top henchman in order to go after the #6 party is stupid. And now it may have backfired.

He's just not ready.


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Scheer stupidity. Mudslinging is part of politics, but spending money on a top henchman in order to go after the #6 party is stupid. And now it may have backfired.
> 
> He's just not ready.


For the first time in my life I'm considering spoiling my ballot because I simply cannot force myself to vote for any of the bastards. There isn't a one that comes anywhere close to half way acceptable, let alone one I want to be governed by for the next 4 years.

This is truly the worst slate of candidates I've ever been subjected to. tptptptp

Considering I lived through the PET, Mulroney & Kim Campbell years, that's saying something...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Beej said:


> Scheer stupidity. Mudslinging is part of politics, but spending money on a top henchman in order to go after the #6 party is stupid. And now it may have backfired.
> 
> 
> 
> He's just not ready.




I’ve known that since the Cabbage Patch Kid first became the leader of the party.


----------



## Macfury

You also knew Rachel Notley would be a great leader and that Hillary Clinton would be president in 2016. 



Freddie_Biff said:


> I’ve known that since the Cabbage Patch Kid first became the leader of the party.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> You also knew Rachel Notley would be a great leader and that Hillary Clinton would be president in 2016.




Rachel Notley IS a great leader. She is a far better leader than hide and seek Jason Kenney has been so far. By popular vote Hillary should have been President. She got 3 million more votes than your dotard ****gibbon choice.


----------



## FeXL

She sure is! On top of the record debt & deficit she piled up on you, your children, your grandchildren & your great-grandchildren, she hired 60,000 fresh new public service employees and now there's no money left for healthcare & education & that's why you'll be on the picket line in a few short months, Freddie.

Fantastic credentials!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Rachel Notley IS a great leader.


<cough>Horse****<cough>

It took her entire first year to decide to do nothing with oil royalties. I have no idea what yer using for a measuring stick, Freddie, but it's time to tuck it back in your pants.



Freddie_Biff said:


> She is a far better leader than hide and seek Jason Kenney has been so far.


Blah, blah, popular vote, blah, blah.

Suck it up, princess. That's precisely why the Electoral College is in place. So that the three most populous states can't pick the leader of the country every election. Canada would do well to have something similar in place. I'm tired of being ruled by some idiot from down east who barely received 35% of the country's vote.

Incidentally, Trump has the US economy running on all 12 cylinders, in case you haven't noticed. Unlike our lying, racist, lying, blackface, lying, Kokanee-groping, lying, elbow-gating, lying, grow the economy from the heart outwards, lying, the budget will balance itself, lying, "dotard ****gibbon choice". Did I mention that he's a liar?

Where's that techicolour vomiting emoticon when you need it...



Freddie_Biff said:


> By popular vote Hillary should have been President. She got 3 million more votes than your dotard ****gibbon choice.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Speaking of whiners, welcome back, FeXL. Have you checked out 338Canada recently? It has the Liberals winning a minority government by every measure.


----------



## Macfury

So basically, you were wrong twice.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Rachel Notley IS a great leader. She is a far better leader than hide and seek Jason Kenney has been so far. By popular vote Hillary should have been President. She got 3 million more votes than your dotard ****gibbon choice.


----------



## FeXL

Never been there. I tend to put very little stock in polls, period. Far, far too many of them are nothing more than wishful thinking Progs with a narrative to push and an axe to grind. Eg., all of them that predicted a win for Chardonnay Sally (approx. 99.999%).

A minority? Good. Seriously. Why? 

That means that they'll have to team up with the Commies and/or the Bloc and/or the Greenies to get anything done. That'll skew everything even further left than what it currently is and, as they all hate Western Canada, they'll get the gold mine & we'll get even more of the shaft. I say, bring it.

The quicker this erstwhile decent country bottoms out, the quicker the fine people of Alberta will get a bellyful of the bull**** & part company.

:clap::clap::clap:



Freddie_Biff said:


> Have you checked out 338Canada recently? It has the Liberals winning a minority government by every measure.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Never been there. I tend to put very little stock in polls, period. Far, far too many of them are nothing more than wishful thinking Progs with a narrative to push and an axe to grind. Eg., all of them that predicted a win for Chardonnay Sally (approx. 99.999%).
> 
> 
> 
> A minority? Good. Seriously. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> That means that they'll have to team up with the Commies and/or the Bloc and/or the Greenies to get anything done. That'll skew everything even further left than what it currently is and, as they all hate Western Canada, they'll get the gold mine & we'll get even more of the shaft. I say, bring it.
> 
> 
> 
> The quicker this erstwhile decent country bottoms out, the quicker the fine people of Alberta will get a bellyful of the bull**** & part company.
> 
> 
> 
> :clap::clap::clap:




Oh yes, your separatist dreams. I keep forgetting about that, vain fantasy that it is. Funny how you think Alberta would be better off without the rest of Canada.


----------



## Macfury

Your lack of faith in Alberta seems to be a continuing theme with you!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Oh yes, your separatist dreams. I keep forgetting about that, vain fantasy that it is. Funny how you think Alberta would be better off without the rest of Canada.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Your lack of faith in Alberta seems to be a continuing theme with you!




Why do you think a lack of faith is suggested when a person believes in Confederation? Alberta is a wonderful province, yes, but not nearly strong enough to stand on its own. Look at how we’re doing now, for god sakes.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Beej

Happy election day. A light read to start the day.
https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-munk-debate-that-never-was/



> Moderator: I’m sorry to interrupt, but I’ve just received notice that our online audience poll has been tampered with by Russian hackers. How would you deal with these types of growing cyber threats, Mr. Trudeau?
> 
> Trudeau: The Internet is sexist. We need to make sure it’s led by strong, capable women who do as I say.
> 
> Moderator: Mr. Scheer?
> 
> Scheer: The mainstream Internet has an obvious Liberal bias.
> 
> Bernier: [Looks up from smartphone.] Pardonez-moi, does anyone know how Trump would use “cuckspiracy” in a sentence?
> 
> Scheer: [Faces camera.] You’re on your own, Max. The Conservative Party of Canada has nothing in common with the man it nearly elected leader.
> 
> Moderator: Nevertheless, Mr. Scheer, some have accused you of pandering to the same populist, anti-immigrant sentiment sweeping the Western world. How do you feel about Brexit, and about Trump?
> 
> Scheer: I supported Brexit before it was cool, and I’m still supporting it now that it’s a disaster. As for President Trump—
> 
> Trudeau [in blackface]: “Did someone say President? I’m President Obama, and I’m here to endorse my main man, Justin.”


----------



## Macfury

That's the result of decades of Liberal confederation and four disastrous years of Notley.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Look at how we’re doing now...


----------



## Dr.G.

Rps said:


> Okay, so here is my guess on seat totals..
> 
> Libs=146
> Cons=118
> NDP=30
> Bloc=40
> PPC=1
> Ind=3
> 
> Have at it.


Libs=136
Cons=125
NDP=35
Bloc=39
PPC=1
Green = 2

We shall see. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## FeXL

Among a veritable host of other things, hundreds of billions of $$$ that wasn't transferred to Kaybeck.

Hell, Freddie, you could even get that pined for raise that didn't materialize under Red Rachel!!!

Better yet, Freddie, here's your opportunity to show off your political acumen: List all the things that Canada gives us that we can't do/obtain/manufacture/produce/whatever ourselves. In other words, sell me on why we should stay, rather than leave the train wreck.

Be specific.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Funny how you think Alberta would be better off without the rest of Canada.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Be specific.


Those two words are conversation killers around these parts.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Among a veritable host of other things, hundreds of billions of $$$ that wasn't transferred to Kaybeck.
> 
> Hell, Freddie, you could even get that pined for raise that didn't materialize under Red Rachel!!!
> 
> Better yet, Freddie, here's your opportunity to show off your political acumen: List all the things that Canada gives us that we can't do/obtain/manufacture/produce/whatever ourselves. In other words, sell me on why we should stay, rather than leave the train wreck.
> 
> Be specific.


Hmmm gets me to thinking. If Freddie thinks he should have gotten a 5% raise the day Rachel took office, then according to Freddie Math does that mean he suffered a 20% paycut under her control?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Hmmm gets me to thinking. If Freddie thinks he should have gotten a 5% raise the day Rachel took office, then according to Freddie Math does that mean he suffered a 20% paycut under her control?


Yes, and that same pay cut will be in effect as long as he is employed — it's permanent.


----------



## FeXL

Because you clearly do not understand the cost to Alberta to belong to said confederation.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Why do you think a lack of faith is suggested when a person believes in Confederation?


Why not? Again, be specific.

We sure as hell can't survive many more years of being run roughshod over by central Canada, either.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Alberta is a wonderful province, yes, but not nearly strong enough to stand on its own.


Yes, indeed. By all means, take your progressive blinders off & have a _good_ look around you. Get out of socialist Redmonton & travel the province some. Talk to the good people who actually get their hands dirty when they work. See how happy they are.

Why d'ya s'pose Red Rachel is still prying the boot out of her backside? We didn't kick her ass out because we were _happy_ with the last 4 years.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Look at how we’re doing now, for god sakes.


----------



## eMacMan

Boy once I got to thinking... It occurs to me that the Liberal spin Meißters may have made a mistake with that term 'brown face'

Won't that make people think it was really ß#!t face? And did he really rub it on his face?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Yes, and that same pay cut will be in effect as long as he is employed — it's permanent.


Gawd, I can hear the hue & cry already...


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Won't that make people think it was really ß#!t face? And did he really rub it on his face?


He's been kissing Butts' arse for so long, it'll be difficult to tell...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Those two words are conversation killers around these parts.


It's funnier'n hell to see the look on people's faces when you ask them why Albertans should stay. They go on and on about how wonderful it is to be part of confederation, yet when you ask for specifics, they stutter a bit, turn red in the face & then shut up like the proverbial clam.

It's a conversation I've had any number of times over the last couple years & nobody, not one single person, has been able to give a good reason to stay.


----------



## 18m2

OK, you asked and I'd like to know.

How will Alberta deal with Canada and more specifically with BC to build a pipeline to tide water when the province no longer has the "supposed" backing of the Federal Government?

Second one.

How will Alberta convince the oil lobby in the US to allow Alberta oil to enter their market and have a "supposed" negative impact on their ability to produce and sell their oil to China and others?


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> OK, you asked and I'd like to know.
> 
> How will Alberta deal with Canada and more specifically with BC to build a pipeline to tide water when the province no longer has the "supposed" backing of the Federal Government?


A2A Railway | Home



18m2 said:


> How will Alberta convince the oil lobby in the US to allow Alberta oil to enter their market and have a "supposed" negative impact on their ability to produce and sell their oil to China and others?


The U.S. refiners don't care where the oil comes from. All excess oil gets shipped overseas.


----------



## FeXL

Thx for asking.



18m2 said:


> How will Alberta deal with Canada and more specifically with BC to build a pipeline to tide water when the province no longer has the "supposed" backing of the Federal Government?


A start? Tariffs for all product into & out of BC that crosses Alberta land & air borders & serious promises to cut off the flow of natural gas & oil to the hypocritical Lower Mainland in the existing pipelines.

Throw tolls into all land & air travel & suddenly you'd have a very agreeable BC populace. Especially when you consider that northern, central & southeast BC is more on board with Alberta politics than those of the Lower Mainland & southern Vancouver Island.



18m2 said:


> How will Alberta convince the oil lobby in the US to allow Alberta oil to enter their market and have a "supposed" negative impact on their ability to produce and sell their oil to China and others?


Alberta already ships oil stateside. It'll be a matter of negotiating an increase in volume.

As MF has noted, we can also get to tidewater via Alaska, although I would prefer pipelines to rail cars. It's safer.


----------



## 18m2

The railway still has to go through BC and the Yukon. How will that work with the various levels of governments and the opposition to transporting bitumen?

It has been reported, that US oil lobby is opposed to Alberta bitumen coming into the US. I believe the opposition may disappear once US oil reserves and fracking go into a decline.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...-should-become-a-household-name-across-canada


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> The railway still has to go through BC and the Yukon. How will that work with the various levels of governments and the opposition to transporting bitumen?


The main opposition to transporting bitumen via pipelines comes from the left. I've seen relatively little opposition to railcars from the left (which makes _zero_ sense to me...). Curiously, I've found more opposition from the political right against railcar bitumen transport.



18m2 said:


> It has been reported, that US oil lobby is opposed to Alberta bitumen coming into the US. I believe the opposition may disappear once US oil reserves and fracking go into a decline.


They'll be opposed because they're protecting their own interests. Understood. However, the processors will just be happy to have product they can process. As third world countries develop, the demand for fossil fuels will do nothing but increase.

I don't see US oil reserves, especially fracking reserves, declining in my lifetime. I've heard "peak oil!!!" so many times over the years I don't even listen to it any more.


----------



## 18m2

FeXL said:


> A start? Tariffs for all product into & out of BC that crosses Alberta land & air borders & serious promises to cut off the flow of natural gas & oil to the hypocritical Lower Mainland in the existing pipelines.
> 
> Throw tolls into all land & air travel & suddenly you'd have a very agreeable BC populace. Especially when you consider that northern, central & southeast BC is more on board with Alberta politics than those of the Lower Mainland & southern Vancouver Island.


BC has a lot of natural gas and plans to begin building infrastructure for exporting CNG.

I don't understand how an independent Alberta would benefit from having to deal with Canada and BC on things like Asian imports from tide water to the Alberta and what would happen to rail shipments of grains, sulphur, etc. I wonder if there is sufficient capacity in either Alaska or the US to take up the extra volume. BC already ships grain and sulphur in large quantities.

FWIW, the population of the Lower Mainland has considerably more political clout than those folks in the hinterland. I'm not picking a side but simply stating the reality that votes mean more than land area.



FeXL said:


> Alberta already ships oil stateside. It'll be a matter of negotiating an increase in volume.


The last I heard the American's were not looking favourably on an expansion of Enbridge's line so it would be an expansion of rail delivery. Risky! A pipeline would be preferred but I believe if the oil lobby wanted it things would be different for Enbridge.


----------



## 18m2

FeXL said:


> They'll be opposed because they're protecting their own interests. Understood. However, the processors will just be happy to have product they can process. As third world countries develop, the demand for fossil fuels will do nothing but increase.


That's exactly my point. Nothing is accomplished politically in the US without the support of the lobbyists and their political contributions.

Somehow that has to change.



FeXL said:


> I don't see US oil reserves, especially fracking reserves, declining in my lifetime. I've heard "peak oil!!!" so many times over the years I don't even listen to it any more.


Peak oil is a red hearing. The media report of the world running out of oil were absolutely bogus. It's more expensive oil and more difficult oil to extract.

I used to work for Alberta Energy and Natural Resources back when Trudeau Senior wanted to nationalize the oil industry. A company that was working to develop the process of extraction for "tar sand", as it was called back then, also recommended an upgrader be developed to bring the oil up to what it called, "an acceptable standard". The company prototyped a chemical/heat/centrifuge process that worked. No idea if it's still viable today or who might own the patents. The idea of an upgrader hinged on a market for the oil at that time so it never got traction.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> BC has a lot of natural gas and plans to begin building infrastructure for exporting CNG.


Yeah, I know. The hypocrites. It also amazes me that all the coal mined in BC gets a free pass, as well. I guess the fact that it's pulled out of the ground on the other side of the province from the eco-nuts (out of sight, out of mind) works to its advantage.



18m2 said:


> I don't understand how an independent Alberta would benefit from having to deal with Canada and BC on things like Asian imports from tide water to the Alberta and what would happen to rail shipments of grains, sulphur, etc. I wonder if there is sufficient capacity in either Alaska or the US to take up the extra volume. BC already ships grain and sulphur in large quantities.


Thing is, realistically, we don't need to pass through BC for Asian imports/exports. Run 'em in railcars to Shelby, MT (1/2 hr south of the 49th) & suddenly we're connected to a major east/west railway.

I don't know how much grain BC actually produces but, compared to what Sask & AB do, it'll be minimal. That, too, can be a lever to keep tidewater ports open & workers employed: Don't want to work with us? Fine. We'll ship through Seattle...



18m2 said:


> FWIW, the population of the Lower Mainland has considerably more political clout than those folks in the hinterland. I'm not picking a side but simply stating the reality that votes mean more than land area.


I know. However, not many in the hinterland like being ruled by the lower mainland, either.



18m2 said:


> The last I heard the American's were not looking favourably on an expansion of Enbridge's line so it would be an expansion of rail delivery. Risky! A pipeline would be preferred but I believe if the oil lobby wanted it things would be different for Enbridge.


I'd run across a headline a few days ago that Montana had issues with it somehow. I never read any further to find out the details.

As an aside but related to our earlier discussion, I ran across this comment in an article I posted to the Ab-exit thread:



> Watcher says:
> October 21, 2019 at 10:11 am
> 
> Wrong *if Alberta is an Independent country under the UN treaties signed by Ottawa, Canada must give Alberta access to Tidewater for shipping all its products.* That is a Red Herring statement that Alberta is Landlocked. It is only Landlocked if it stays in Canada.


Bold mine.

I don't know how accurate this is but it may be worth looking into.


----------



## SINC

Well, the people of Atlantic Canada demonstrated tonight they are fine with an idiot for a PM, for lies and deceit, for obstruction of justice and so many more lies from Turdeau. Thanks for nothing.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

My oh my, that’s a lot of red seats so far. Seems the rest of Canada is not reflected very well by the handful of participants in this forum. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Singh is tanking!

An overall skew to the right so far.


----------



## Macfury

Relaxing election coverage:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

If Andrew Scheer doesn’t become Prime Minister tonight, should he resign as leader of the party?


----------



## Macfury

He did surprisingly well, so no. The Libs should fire Trudeau for nearly sinking them.



Freddie_Biff said:


> If Andrew Scheer doesn’t become Prime Minister tonight, should he resign as leader of the party?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> He did surprisingly well, so no. The Libs should fire Trudeau for nearly sinking them.




Um, in case you can’t count, Trudeau won. 158 seats is considerably more than 121 seats as far as I can tell. It’s not as big a victory as last time, but it’s a hell of a lot better than you predicted. Four more years, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

I didn't predict anything. The party carried a hapless Trudeau to a half-assed victory. Throw the bum out! I doubt this government will last four years.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Um, in case you can’t count, Trudeau won. 158 seats is considerably more than 121 seats as far as I can tell. It’s not as big a victory as last time, but it’s a hell of a lot better than you predicted. Four more years, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> If Andrew Scheer doesn’t become Prime Minister tonight, should he resign as leader of the party?


Scheers claimed number 1 priority was moving the Canadian embassy to Jerusalem. I would rather they choose a leader who puts Canadian interests far ahead of the priorities of his globalist Puppet Meißters.

Also have not forgiven the Conmen for refusing to stand up to the IRS and incorporating what is essentially a treaty as part of a budget bill, then having said treasonous treaty take effect on Canada Day. On the otherhand the ß#itface did not shut down that treaty and turned over confidential banking information of hundreds of thousands of Canadian citizens to the IRS, with not even an empty promise that the confidentiality of that information will be maintained.

As predicted Jagmeet did rather poorly. Most of us have been conditioned almost from birth to distrust other religions. Overcoming that bias takes a very conscious effort. Jagmeet was as empty as the rest of the bunch when it came to intelligent mathematically sound policy and the result was predictable.

From an Alberta point of view, will the Liebarrels and the Conmen team up and do something about the pipeline impasse that is strangling Alberta's economy?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Scheers claimed number 1 priority was moving the Canadian embassy to Jerusalem. I would rather they choose a leader who puts Canadian interests far ahead of the priorities of his globalist Puppet Meißters.
> 
> Also have not forgiven the Conmen for refusing to stand up to the IRS and incorporating what is essentially a treaty as part of a budget bill, then having said treasonous treaty take effect on Canada Day. On the otherhand the ß#itface did not shut down that treaty and turned over confidential banking information of hundreds of thousands of Canadian citizens to the IRS, with not even an empty promise that the confidentiality of that information will be maintained.
> 
> As predicted Jagmeet did rather poorly. Most of us have been conditioned almost from birth to distrust other religions. Overcoming that bias takes a very conscious effort. Jagmeet was as empty as the rest of the bunch when it came to intelligent mathematically sound policy and the result was predictable.
> 
> From an Alberta point of view, will the Liebarrels and the Conmen team up and do something about the pipeline impasse that is strangling Alberta's economy?




That all depends how persuasive Jason Kenney can be. I’m not holding my breath. Alberta didn’t support Trudeau; Trudeau has little reason to put Alberta’s interests as top priority. Perhaps someday Albertans might consider that there are advantages to not voting so damn Conservative all the time.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Oops! They just cut off Andrew Scheer’s speech to go to Justin Trudeau’s speech. Now that’s a shame.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## Macfury

Alberta saw the "advantages" of "not voting so Conservative" with four nightmarish years under the Notley regime. Just double down on that idea by supporting bankrupt Liberal ideology, so that the party beats you less hard when it doles out its punishment to the rest of Canada?



Freddie_Biff said:


> That all depends how persuasive Jason Kenney can be. I’m not holding my breath. Alberta didn’t support Trudeau; Trudeau has little reason to put Alberta’s interests as top priority. Perhaps someday Albertans might consider that there are advantages to not voting so damn Conservative all the time.


----------



## FUXL

*Celebration time*

[ame]https://youtu.be/3GwjfUFyY6M[/ame]



Sidelining the grease grubbers and evangelicals for another ~ 2 years. They have a serious problem appealing to the majority of Canadian voters.

PM Trudeau will resign and turn the reins over to PM Freeland who will be the first woman elected to be PM.

Just had solar panels on my garage installed yesterday to charge my car. The future is renewables. Suck it up buttercups!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> [ame]https://youtu.be/3GwjfUFyY6M[/ame]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sidelining the grease grubbers and evangelicals for another ~ 2 years. They have a serious problem appealing to the majority of Canadian voters.
> 
> 
> 
> PM Trudeau will resign and turn the reins over to PM Freeland who will be the first woman elected to be PM.
> 
> 
> 
> Just had solar panels on my garage installed yesterday to charge my car. The future is renewables. Suck it up buttercups!




Sure is quiet around here this morning.


----------



## Macfury

If you're willing to take a financial bath, go for it!



FUXL said:


> Just had solar panels on my garage installed yesterday to charge my car.


----------



## FUXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> Sure is quiet around here this morning.


I fear for my friends in Canmore, Calgary and Edmonton. I have to make sure to reach out and tell them they're in my thoughts.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> I fear for my friends in Canmore, Calgary and Edmonton. I have to make sure to reach out and tell them they're in my thoughts.




And prayers. Thoughts and prayers. That’s how Conservatives operate.


----------



## CubaMark

Best news of the night in Canada's federal election: Andrew Scheer is not Prime Minister (and Bernier's far-right lunatic party completely shut out). We're still dominated by the same two political parties that are responsible for Canada's debt, foreign policy acquiescence to the USA, unjust treatment of indigenous peoples, etc.

Then there's a great news out of Israel, that far-right wingnut Netanyahu has failed in forming a government, so it's back to the voters, hoping someone with some kind of common sense eventually takes power (not hopeful).

And the fabulous news from Latin America: Bolivia's Evo Morales elected again as leader. That's the country where McDonald's was tossed out on its ear, and the indigenous majority now holds power over its own considerable natural resource riches.

All in all, not a bad Tuesday morning...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> We're still dominated by the same two political parties that are responsible for Canada's debt, foreign policy acquiescence to the USA, unjust treatment of indigenous peoples, etc.


Strike one for you.



CubaMark said:


> Then there's a great news out of Israel, that far-right wingnut Netanyahu has failed in forming a government, so it's back to the voters, hoping someone with some kind of common sense eventually takes power (not hopeful).


So you want the even greater militarist to win? Strike two for you.



CubaMark said:


> And the fabulous news from Latin America: Bolivia's Evo Morales elected again as leader. That's the country where McDonald's was tossed out on its ear, and the indigenous majority now holds power over its own considerable natural resource riches.


Venezuela Two! Strike Three!


----------



## CubaMark

Somebody pee in your cornflakes this morning, grandpa? :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Prinz Dummkopf lost the popular vote, Freddie. According to your Prog logic, Andy 2% should be PM!

Funny how all that Prog logic goes out the window when the shoe's on the other foot...


----------



## FeXL

'Scuse me? :yikes:

Just who works for whom here?

That's some twisted $h!t, Freddie.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Alberta didn’t support Trudeau...


----------



## FeXL

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



fuxl said:


> sidelining the grease grubbers and evangelicals for another ~ 2 years. They have a serious problem appealing to the majority of canadian voters.
> 
> Pm trudeau will resign and turn the reins over to pm freeland who will be the first woman elected to be pm.
> 
> Just had solar panels on my garage installed yesterday to charge my car. The future is renewables. Suck it up buttercups!


----------



## FeXL

Quoth the guy who fervently, one would say,_ religiously_, believes in Anthropogenic Globull Warming...



Freddie_Biff said:


> And prayers. Thoughts and prayers. That’s how Conservatives operate.


----------



## FeXL

Some of us are exploring our separation options...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sure is quiet around here this morning.


----------



## Macfury

I peed in yours. And your off-kilter observations earned it.



CubaMark said:


> Somebody pee in your cornflakes this morning?


----------



## FUXL

FeXL said:


> Some of us are exploring our separation options...


Need any help packing?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> 'Scuse me? :yikes:
> 
> Just who works for whom here?
> 
> That's some twisted $h!t, Freddie.


For progs, no elected leader is supposed to represent all Canadians--just the narrow base of perennially unhappy prog voters.


----------



## FeXL

You bet. Careful approaching the property, tho...



FUXL said:


> Need any help packing?


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth iths 2015!!!*

Holy ****. It looks like Husky is laying of 100s of Calgarians today. SNC stocks a soaring.

Separation city...


----------



## FeXL

Me, too.

I Don’t Want A New Deal



> I want a new country.


Moe is an idiot.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth iths 2015!!!*

The Liberals didn't win the 2019 federal election, they just lost less than the Conservatives



> Can’t they both lose? I asked, irritably, in my last column. As it turned out, they both did. Never before have both major parties taken such a small share of the vote. Never before, in my memory, have both declined steadily and together throughout a campaign. Their platforms landed with the same dull thuds, their leaders failed to impress in roughly equal measure.
> 
> The Liberals, then, did not so much win this election as lose it less. They gave up roughly 30 seats, yielded half a dozen points in the popular vote — but not to the Tories, whose vote remained as steady, or as inert, as ever. Rather, it was to the benefit of the other parties on the left: the Greens, the resurgent NDP and especially the Bloc Québécois. It was left-of-centre voters, not those in the centre or right, that administered this rebuke — enough to humble the Liberals but not to remove them from power.


I wish I'd have been in that Montreal metro station this morning...


----------



## FeXL

Cross posted.

All Candidates in Upcoming Elections are Evil, Filthy Non-Muslims Who Support Homosexuality, Zionism Says Respected Muslim Cleric Younus Kathrada



> *Canadian Imam Younus Kathrada: All Candidates in Upcoming Elections are Evil, Filthy Non-Muslims Who Support Homosexuality, Zionism*
> 
> In a Friday, October 11, 2019 sermon that was uploaded to the Muslim Youth Victoria YouTube channel, Canadian Sheikh Younus Kathrada reminded his audience that who they vote for in the upcoming Canadian elections, if they decide to vote, will be recorded by the two angels on their shoulders and that Allah will ask them on Judgment Day why they voted for “filthy non-Muslims” who approve of homosexuality. Sheikh Kathrada said that all of the candidates are “evil and filthy” people who support the Zionists against Islam and who do not have Muslims’ best interests in mind. He added that this is consistent with the Quranic statement that the Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with the Muslims.


----------



## eMacMan

Regardless of who won this election it was a foregone conclusion that Canada and its taxpaying citizens would be the losers. Either way we were assured of having a globalist sock puppet for PM.

One bright bit of news out of all this. Jody Wilson Raybould held on to her seat. We may disagree more than we agree, but the integrity she showed in standing up to the Prime ß#itface deserves to be rewarded.
https://vancouversun.com/news/local...ybould-holds-thin-lead-in-vancouver-granville

I thought she had lost when I hit the hay last night.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Rather, it was to the benefit of the other parties on the left: the Greens, *the resurgent NDP *and especially the Bloc Québécois.


Huh???!!!


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Jody Wilson Raybould held on to her seat.


I was under the impression she was heading for a loss, as well.

Good for her.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Huh???!!!


Wondered about that, as well.


----------



## FeXL

Sure is quiet around here this morning.

Perhaps realization is dawning on precisely what has _actually_ transpired over the last day or two. For those of you who voted for the prick, I wish a single thing: That you get exactly what you voted for. Good and hard...


----------



## 18m2

If Trudeau had gone forward with Proportional Representation the distribution of the seats would have been different and more equitable and fair and acceptable and inclusive and etc.

Good on Jagmeet Singh for putting that idea back on the agenda. :clap:


----------



## Freddie_Biff

18m2 said:


> If Trudeau had gone forward with Proportional Representation the distribution of the seats would have been different and more equitable and fair and acceptable and inclusive and etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Good on Jagmeet Singh for putting that idea back on the agenda. :clap:




Proportional representation only benefits the losing parties. That’s why no government takes it seriously once they’re in power. Harper’s Cons certainly didn’t.


----------



## SINC

All PR accomplishes is coalition after coalition governments wherever it has been used. I think most Canadians are content with the FPTP system.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> All PR accomplishes is coalition after coalition governments wherever it has been used. I think most Canadians are content with the FPTP system.




For once I agree with you, Don. We should mark it on the calendar.


----------



## Macfury

Make that three.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> I think most Canadians are content with the FPTP system.


I think "content" is a vast overstatement. However, in the absence of anything better, it's what we're stuck with.

Four.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Shiny Marquis De Blackface



> … Having failed with all that, I’ll ask about something else: @wpgadotca
> 
> If there was nothing wrong that caused you to leave, why have none of your colleagues vouched for you?
> 
> Photos show you had 97 colleagues:
> 🕺🏼- 25
> 💃- 72
> 
> Why they all so [email protected] #elxn43 pic.twitter.com/3P0RSdVFrg
> 
> — Vivian Krause (@FairQuestions) October 15, 2019​
> Indeed.


Questions, questions, questions...


----------



## Rps

Man I must be getting old and senile......really blew the election total guesses this time. Oh well it’s probably the same reason I don’t pick winning lottery numbers....


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Oh well it’s probably the same reason I don’t pick winning lottery numbers....


<snort>

Either way, it's a crapshoot...


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Man I must be getting old and senile......really blew the election total guesses this time. Oh well it’s probably the same reason I don’t pick winning lottery numbers....


I didn't believe the Conservatives would win, so I didn't want to even put out such a sad prediction...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I didn't believe the Conservatives would win...


Agreed.

Andy 2%, Liberal lite, is not the man for the job. 

FWIW, neither is Bernier. The West has been burned by far too many Kaybeck politicians.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Andy 2%, Liberal lite, is not the man for the job.
> 
> FWIW, neither is Bernier. The West has been burned by far too many Kaybeck politicians.


What I did not see from either the Conmen or the Liebarrels was anything resembling clear policy statements. That left the electorate to try to decide who had the scarier hidden agenda. Given how the votes split, it looks like the; "I don't like anybody very much" vote carried the day.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> What I did not see from either the Conmen or the Liebarrels was anything resembling clear policy statements.


Agreed. Andy 2%'s ads kept on talking about the $850 _per family_. Whoop de frickin' do. And the only Liberal ad I saw was the fear mongering between Ford, Harper & Scheep.

The Conservative campaign manager should already be fired. He could have made hay out of a dozen significant issues & failed to do so.

For many Canadians, this election was a matter of hold your nose & vote for the least offensive...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The Conservative campaign manager should already be fired. He could have made hay out of a dozen significant issues & failed to do so.


The radio ads I heard were a disgrace. That election was theirs to lose--and they managed it handily.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

I Want A New Country



> @PremierScottMoe – The Trudeau Carbon Tax costs one Saskatchewan farmer $5495.18 last month. I can guarantee his rebate won’t cover this extra cost.


So, the whole premise behind this carbon tax BS is to raise the cost of fossil fuels so high as to curtail usage. If this farmer has a $30,000 gas bill, you can bet he's got a hog barn or a chicken barn or is raising some other livestock indoors.

What's he s'pose to do? Drop the thermostat by 5° in mid-winter?


----------



## robert

I, like many people around here, voted for the best local candidate to represent them.

No party this time around offered anything worth supporting.

The Conservative party campaign was a joke. Give us more money per year. Yeah right, then turn around and claw it back through taxes. Surprised they got as many votes as they did.

Not liking this new campaining through mud slinging. All parties could have done better by offering solutions to counter what they disagreed with of the government of the last 4 years.

We need new blood in the parties to get Canada back on track, not the same old crap we have been seeing.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The radio ads I heard were a disgrace. That election was theirs to lose--and they managed it handily.


Nails it.


----------



## FeXL

robert said:


> The Conservative party campaign was a joke. Give us more money per year. Yeah right, then turn around and claw it back through taxes.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Those Moderate Liberals!



> Your tax dollars at hate;
> 
> B’nai Brith Canada is deeply concerned after learning that a federal grant was used to produce a guide instructing Canadian Muslims on how to vote in last Monday’s national election.
> 
> The “Canadian Muslim Voting Guide: Federal Election 2019” was released by the Canadian Islamophobia Industry Research Project at Wilfred Laurier University on Oct. 18, just three days before Canadians went to the polls. Its front cover acknowledges support from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada (SSHRC), a federal agency that assigns research grants.
> 
> […]
> 
> “It is totally unacceptable that government funds have been used to promote an antisemitic movement in Canada,” said Michael Mostyn, Chief Executive Officer of B’nai Brith Canada.
> 
> “It is deeply troubling that taxpayer dollars were used to subsidize a document ‘guiding’ Canadians on whom to support in an election.”
> 
> The Voting Guide also alleges that “Zionist ideologies play a prominent role” in fomenting Islamophobia in Canada (page 6). No evidence is cited for this absurd and dangerous proposition.​


Niiiiice...


----------



## FeXL

Not interested, Doug.

Doug Ford’s Power Play Against a Weakened Trudeau

I agree with many of the comments.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Canada -- Don't Ask Me to Take You Seriously Again



> One cannot improve upon Ben Shapiro’s economical take: “Justin Trudeau is what would happen if the song 'Imagine' took human form and then ate a Tide Pod.”


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## eMacMan

And Tinsley nails it:


----------



## SINC

If you wonder why Alberta is talking separation, have a look at the record.


----------



## SINC

So then, Canada spending billions on climate change is going to fix this, is it?

Hell, it won't even touch it and anyone that thinks it will is out of their mind.

Punishing ourselves for this? Incredible!

*Millions of masks distributed to students in 'gas chamber' Delhi*



> Five million masks are being distributed at schools in India's capital, Delhi, after pollution made the air so toxic officials were forced to declare a public health emergency.
> 
> A Supreme Court mandated panel imposed several restrictions in the city and two neighbouring states, as air quality deteriorated to "severe" levels.
> 
> All construction has been halted for a week and fireworks have been banned.
> 
> The city's schools have also been closed until at least next Tuesday.
> 
> Delhi's Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal said Delhi had been turned into a "gas chamber".


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

BOHICA.

Liberals send debt into hyperdrive and 'Generation Screwed' will end up paying for it



> In the 2015 federal election campaign, the Harper Conservatives proudly announced a no-deficit budget after years of working to rebalance spending and revenues following stimulus deficits necessitated by the 2008 global economic crisis. Justin Trudeau’s Liberals, behind in the polls when the writ was dropped, announced “modest” deficit spending totalling $25 billion in the first three years, returning to a balanced budget in the fourth. Although this was seen as a risky strategy at the time, the Liberals were rewarded with a decisive majority.
> 
> That $25 billion ballooned to $70 billion. And Trudeau’s promise of a balanced budget has been replaced by a $93-billion deficit over the next four years. The NDP and Green election platforms proposed even higher spending. *Yet, despite campaigns featuring such a staggering accretion of our national debt, pollsters found that deficit spending didn’t rank as a major election concern for most Canadians.*


Bold mine.

That's because most Canadians are stupid, financially illiterate, left-leaning idiots...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

I Wish I Owned All The Oil Companies In The World



> They want a new country, too.
> 
> Encana Corp., one of Canada’s oldest and largest energy companies, is moving its corporate headquarters from Calgary to the United States.
> 
> 
> The company, which is also changing its name to Ovintiv Inc., said Thursday that having a U.S. address will expose it to increasingly larger pools of investment in U.S. index funds and passively managed accounts, as well as better align it with its U.S. peers.​
> I always give good advice.
> 
> Update.
> 
> * Thank you. And now I can’t help but wonder if there might have been something more fulsome and from a minister or the PM if a similar sized aeronautics company in Quebec announced it was moving its HQ to the US https://t.co/H8hkSCiMup
> 
> — Brad Wall (@BradWall306) October 31, 2019*​


Bold mine.

Brad, get a grip. No way in hell the Feds would ever let a Kaybeck company get close to leaving Canada...


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


The article states:

_There are other reasons too, including construction dust, factory and vehicular emissions, but farm fires remain the biggest culprit.

More than two million farmers burn 23 million tonnes of crop residue on some 80,000 sq km of farmland in northern India every winter.

The stubble smoke is a lethal cocktail of particulate matter, carbon dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and sulphur dioxide.

Using satellite data, Harvard University researchers estimated that nearly half of Delhi's air pollution between 2012 and 2016 was due to stubble burning._​
The next step in telling this story is to tell us why the farmers resort to burning the fields; What are the domestic regulations (if any) on burning? what crops are grown and what is their market? Are there substitute crops or methods that could alleviate this?


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Nope.

The next step is having the Climate Goofs justify their equating GLOBULL WARMING!!! and POLLUTION!!!



CubaMark said:


> The next step in telling this story...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

There's some debate as to whether this was a 767 or a 737. Either way...

Nov 1st, 2019 Trudeau flew the PM’s Boeing 767 to Tofino for a weekend of surfing. This consumes 50,000 kg of fuel or 150,000 kg of CO2 emitted.


----------



## FeXL

I don't have much use for Conrad Black or his platitudes. That said, deep into the article, near the very end, is this little tidbit, which should make head hair stand up on every red-blooded Albertan...

Trudeau's hollow victory leaves the real issues facing this country unresolved



> As the Montreal (and Terrebonne) economic analyst DeWolf Shaw has forcefully pointed out, economically Quebec has completely outperformed Canada in the past decade; six straight budget surpluses, substantial debt reduction, and a brilliant Hydro-Quebec worth $500 billion (compared with the shambling, quasi-bankrupt Ontario Hydro). The Quebec Caisse de Dépôts et de Placements has net assets of $326 billion for 8.5 million Quebecers, and the Canada Pension Plan has assets of $404 billion for 29 million non-Quebec Canadians. Quebec unemployment is the lowest in the country...


And yet, every year, Albertans write Kaybeckers a cheque for 10's of billions of $$$.

tptptptptptptptptptptptp


----------



## FeXL

Good riddance & don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Elizabeth May resigning as Green party leader, names Jo-Ann Roberts successor



> Elizabeth May has stepped down as the leader of the federal Green party.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## eMacMan

Don't really see the Conman back benchers developing this sort of back bone, but it is an interesting idea.
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/a...-how/wcm/d5aac6f5-993a-4cac-aa53-633333a922f2


Despite the great idea at the end of the article bet on this being what really happens.



> Here is what the next six months might look like for the Conservatives. Their leader, Andrew Scheer, having stumbled through an election campaign he might have won with a platform that was sure to lose, ignores widespread calls to quit in favour of hanging on until the April leadership review.
> 
> Unable to dislodge him before then, his critics in the party focus on ensuring he does not survive the vote. The months pass, filled with anonymous sniping in the media, and punctuated by increasingly strident calls for his dismissal from riding executives and party grandees.
> 
> At the convention, he neither does so well (more than 90 per cent support) as to clearly confirm his leadership, nor so poorly (less than 50 per cent) as to clearly end it, but something in between. Without consensus on what level of support (70 per cent? 75? 80?) would be sufficient, the leader might attempt to carry on — but in such a weakened state that he could do little but invite further attacks on his leadership.
> 
> Alternatively, he might step down, leaving the party leaderless for another six to nine months while it elects a replacement, by the same dirty, gameable system of mass membership sales that elected him. Either way, consumed with its own internal struggles, the party offers no serious opposition to the governing Liberals, probably for the life of this Parliament.


----------



## 18m2

I'm shocked at the amount we tax payers are providing to defeated and retired MPs. A pension is one thing but severance pay is disgusting. 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local...payments-released-for-defeated-or-retired-mps


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> I'm shocked at the amount we tax payers are providing to defeated and retired MPs. A pension is one thing but severance pay is disgusting.
> 
> https://vancouversun.com/news/local...payments-released-for-defeated-or-retired-mps


Severance is an appalling concept for elected politicians.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> A pension is one thing but severance pay is disgusting.


Wasn't aware of the severance packages. Pretty sweet deal. Where else can you "work" for 4 years & walk away with nearly a 6 figure severance, on top of your overly generous pay/benefits?


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

SNC-Lavalin built Gaddafi’s son $25M yacht from scratch according to court testimony



> After inking a multimillion-dollar contract with Libya in 2007, then-SNC-Lavalin executive Riadh Ben Aissa toured a luxury boat show in Cannes, France with North African dictator Muammar Gaddafi’s son Saadi, a Quebec Superior Court jury heard on Monday.


----------



## FeXL

:clap::clap::clap:

Premier says only Quebecers entitled to service in English are descendants of Irish Orphans from that Heritage Minute



> Francois Legault has declared that, moving forward, the only people in Quebec who will be able to obtain government services in English will be ones who can prove they are a direct descendant of the angel faced Irish Orphans from the Heritage Minute.
> 
> “If you can’t prove that your ancestor came off the boat from Ireland and told a heartwarming story about their dead mother in order to convince a Monseigneur to let them keep their Irish names, then there is nothing we can do for you,” said Legault.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The Unbearable Lightness Of Andrew



> He who is without sin…
> 
> Imagine if Trudeau or Scheer had constantly made fun of Singh’s religion to hurt him politically—Demanding to know if he believed in reincarnation, if he REALLY thought God cares about haircuts etc. Would this be any different than hounding Scheer about what he thinks is “a sin?”​
> Every word of that is truth.
> 
> _So why doesn’t he fight back?_


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> The Unbearable Lightness Of Andrew


*I'll just let Tamara answer that for you:* (Twitter)

Tamara Forbes
@thattamster

Replying to @JJ_McCullough
The difference is that Singh never stood in Parliment and gave a speech about why getting haircuts should be illegal. Scheer has promoted positions in the legislature based on his faith. He was held accountable for that by the voters. Separation of church and state​
* * *​
Tamara Forbes
@thattamster

Scheer failed this election in terms of how he managed it. He should have apologized for his past comments about gay marriage. Basically owned the fact that he let his personal faith views impact him as a young politician and that he would never let that happen again.​


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *I'll just let Tamara answer that for you:* (Twitter)Tamara Forbes
> @thattamster
> 
> Replying to @JJ_McCulloughThe difference is that Singh never stood in Parliment and gave a speech about why getting haircuts should be illegal. Scheer has promoted positions in the legislature based on his faith. He was held accountable for that by the voters. Separation of church and state​* * *​Tamara Forbes
> @thattamsterScheer failed this election in terms of how he managed it. He should have apologized for his past comments about gay marriage. Basically owned the fact that he let his personal faith views impact him as a young politician and that he would never let that happen again.​


I very seriously doubt that his opposition to gay marriage swayed even a single riding for or against him.

The Harpoon passed a lot of legislation via omnibus budget bills. Legislation that would never have withstood closer scrutiny. I think Canadians do have that long of a memory.


----------



## Macfury

"Tamara" is an idiot. Separation of church and state means government can't establish an official religion.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> "Tamara" is an idiot. Separation of church and state means government can't establish an official religion.


There ya go, bein' all logical an' stuff again...

(Pssst: "Tamara" ain't the only idiot...)


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> There ya go, bein' all logical an' stuff again...
> 
> (Pssst: "Tamara" ain't the only idiot...)


There's a prog in here who suffers from terminal logical fallacy...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> There's a prog in here who suffers from terminal logical fallacy...


And the (in?)curious thing is, he's entirely silent on the movement of Sharia law into western society.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> ....he's entirely silent on the movement of Sharia law into western society.


Darnit. I knew that you had a blind spot to anything that opposed your warped point of view. 

I have repeatedly answered your inanities in this forum about Sharia Law somehow taking hold in Canada, with evidence, with sources, with actual common sense, but you still go down that road every chance you get. 

I'm tired of taking the time to try and correct you. It's impossible. The damage to the cerebellum is apparently irreversible. You'll continue to yammer away with your unfounded prejudices, it matters not what actual evidence is put in front of you.

ehMac. Used to be a nice place to visit to talk about Macs. Has deteriorated into a cesspool of right-wing bigotry and hatred, devoid of any decorum, just a hateful echo chamber of righteous ridiculousness.

A sad state of affairs.


----------



## Macfury

This is how *YOU* are seen here, CM. You keep on dishing out the same garbage, the same tired "sources" the same bigoted viewpoints--and no matter how often your tissue-thin arguments are demonstrated to be nonsense, you emerge from your world of hurt to try to use them again and again.



CubaMark said:


> I have repeatedly answered your inanities in this forum about Sharia Law somehow taking hold in Canada, with evidence, with sources, with actual common sense, but you still go down that road every chance you get.
> 
> I'm tired of taking the time to try and correct you. It's impossible. The damage to the cerebellum is apparently irreversible. You'll continue to yammer away with your unfounded prejudices, it matters not what actual evidence is put in front of you.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> "Tamara" is an idiot. Separation of church and state means government can't establish an official religion.


Wow. Where have you been for the past couple of hundred years? 

_It seems that to some people, if the words don’t explicitly appear in the constitution then the idea they refer to isn’t constitutionally guaranteed. Viewing it in these simplistic terms is meant to dismiss the entire argument; as if every decision based on the separation of church and state is somehow invalid because the term separation of church and state doesn’t appear in the constitution. 

Of course the problems with this assertion are many. First and most basic is the fact that the Supreme Court is the ultimate interpreter of federal constitutional law. This means that while the term “separation of Church and State” may never appear in the constitution itself, the Court ruling in the case of Everson v. Board of Education stated “the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’” 

* * *​
It should also be noted that of the 112 Supreme Court Justices, none of them has been an atheist. In fact 92 pecent of them were Christian. What rationale would these justices have for making laws that would create a legal prejudice towards their system of beliefs, especially if the separation of Church and State is a misinterpretation?

The reality is that the constitution was never meant to be a stagnant document that was rigidly adherent to the words on the page. As Thomas Jefferson said “The constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist, and shape into any form they please.” Over the past 200 years the Supreme Court has shaped the constitution to contain a clear separation of church and state that protects every religion equally. If only those who argue against this separation could see how they benefit from it instead of inappropriately interpreting it as an attack on Christianity._

Yes, there is a constitutional separation of church and state​


----------



## Macfury

CM, do you even understand what you are posting here? The quote from Jefferson describes his fear regarding giving too much power to the judiciary. The writer is an idiot with no understanding of history.



> What rationale would these justices have for making laws that would create a legal prejudice towards their system of beliefs, especially if the separation of Church and State is a misinterpretation?


The establishment of any one religion by government. Is that not enough?


> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."






CubaMark said:


> Wow. Where have you been for the past couple of hundred years?
> 
> _It seems that to some people, if the words don’t explicitly appear in the constitution then the idea they refer to isn’t constitutionally guaranteed. Viewing it in these simplistic terms is meant to dismiss the entire argument; as if every decision based on the separation of church and state is somehow invalid because the term separation of church and state doesn’t appear in the constitution.
> 
> Of course the problems with this assertion are many. First and most basic is the fact that the Supreme Court is the ultimate interpreter of federal constitutional law. This means that while the term “separation of Church and State” may never appear in the constitution itself, the Court ruling in the case of Everson v. Board of Education stated “the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’”
> 
> * * *​
> It should also be noted that of the 112 Supreme Court Justices, none of them has been an atheist. In fact 92 pecent of them were Christian. What rationale would these justices have for making laws that would create a legal prejudice towards their system of beliefs, especially if the separation of Church and State is a misinterpretation?
> 
> The reality is that the constitution was never meant to be a stagnant document that was rigidly adherent to the words on the page. As Thomas Jefferson said “The constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist, and shape into any form they please.” Over the past 200 years the Supreme Court has shaped the constitution to contain a clear separation of church and state that protects every religion equally. If only those who argue against this separation could see how they benefit from it instead of inappropriately interpreting it as an attack on Christianity._
> 
> Yes, there is a constitutional separation of church and state​


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> CM, do you even understand what you are posting here?


I understand perfectly what I'm posting, and what I'm saying. You are talking about the government establishing a religion (rather impossible, I daresay, but there are enough folks out there who believe in UN black helicopter invasion forces that I get where the paranoia comes from).

Frankly, I'm not a constitutionalist and think this age-old debate (more of a shouting match in which no-one hears the other side nor has interest in doing so) over what a bunch of slave-owning white men hundreds of years ago thought is simply a ridiculous obsession.

Life in the 1700s has little bearing on the world we live in today.

I highly doubt the Founding Fathers of the USA could even have conceived of the massive power and influence certain religious organizations and individuals have over modern politics. 

It is utter lunacy to give any political space to organized religion. Citizen's recourse for political influence should stay where it belongs — at the ballot box, through representative democracy (where there are enough other shadowy forces and power blocs to contend with). 

The Guns God and Ammo crowd be damned - politicians like Scheer, who mumble their way through political campaigns and refuse to clearly state the degree to which their religious beliefs may influence their choice of public policy - especially in the case of party leader and potential Prime Minister, need to decide whether the intend to stand in Parliament or the Pulpit. Serve the people and the interests of the many, or serve the narrow, frequently misogynistic and patriarchal, occasionally delusional, belief systems of people who believe in magical beings who live in the sky and who descend from time to time to smite humanity when it misbehaves, or mixes the kinds of cloth they wear, or eats pork, or whatever other stupidity is dictated throughout the dark centuries of mysticism and rejection of reason.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> I highly doubt the Founding Fathers of the USA could even have conceived of the massive power and influence certain religious organizations and individuals have over modern politics.
> 
> It is utter lunacy to give any political space to organized religion. Citizen's recourse for political influence should stay where it belongs — at the ballot box, through representative democracy (where there are enough other shadowy forces and power blocs to contend with).
> 
> The Guns God and Ammo crowd be damned


These statements are pretty unbelievable. On the first paragraph, the founding fathers would have been aware of the history of the Catholic church, and its historic exercise of power, which far outstrips any religion in the U.S. today. 

On the second...you understand that the "Guns God and Ammo" crowd votes, right? Just like the brainwashed moronic marxists, useless hippies, and Fine Upstanding People I Agree With. 

The constitution, and judiciary, tempers the ability of those citizen's recourse for political influence, as well as everyone else's. But sure, just toss it and see what naked competition for unlimited political power looks like. 

Or, for a Canadian thread, throw out all our old parliamentary practices (I think white people did that too!) and have a new set of rules, rewritten whenever someone feels like it, drafted by the batch of idiots we send to Ottawa.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Contrary to your closed mindedness, I'll listen to anyone, anywhere who can back up their argument with actual facts. Unfortunately, that does not include shallow, willfully ignorant blowhards like yourself.



CubaMark said:


> Darnit. I knew that you had a blind spot to anything that opposed your warped point of view.


Blah, blah, blah. It's been a while since I've taken a social studies class but I'm purdy damn sure that the western world includes more geography than merely Canada. You may wish to go back to your primary school social text & confirm that.

As far as my so-called repeated use is concerned, why don't you hit the old "Search" button near the top of the page, type in "Sharia", then come back & tell me how many times it shows up in my posts over the past year.

I'm not a betting man but I'm willing to bet large here the number of instances falls something short of your hyperbolic "every chance you get".

Go ahead, I'll wait...



CubaMark said:


> I have repeatedly answered your inanities in this forum about Sharia Law somehow taking hold in Canada, with evidence, with sources, with actual common sense, but you still go down that road every chance you get.


Good. Only an idiot would attempt to correct someone else, because it is, indeed, impossible.

Lay out your argument, defend it with facts and, if any of it is substantiated, an intelligent person will consider it. Where _your_ defence fails miserably is in the _facts_ department.



CubaMark said:


> I'm tired of taking the time to try and correct you. It's impossible. The damage to the cerebellum is apparently irreversible. You'll continue to yammer away with your unfounded prejudices, it matters not what actual evidence is put in front of you.


Is the first part of your sentence a shining example of the second? Asking for a friend. As to the third part, the iron...



CubaMark said:


> Has deteriorated into a cesspool of right-wing bigotry and hatred,
> devoid of any decorum,
> just a hateful echo chamber of righteous ridiculousness.


I agree. It is entirely sad when a guy with a Piled higher & Deeper is completely & utterly unable to defend his position on a public board. What a waste of taxpayer $$$.



CubaMark said:


> A sad state of affairs.


----------



## Macfury

All of which has nothing to do with seapration of church and state...



CubaMark said:


> I understand perfectly what I'm posting, and what I'm saying. You are talking about the government establishing a religion (rather impossible, I daresay, but there are enough folks out there who believe in UN black helicopter invasion forces that I get where the paranoia comes from).
> 
> Frankly, I'm not a constitutionalist and think this age-old debate (more of a shouting match in which no-one hears the other side nor has interest in doing so) over what a bunch of slave-owning white men hundreds of years ago thought is simply a ridiculous obsession.
> 
> Life in the 1700s has little bearing on the world we live in today.
> 
> I highly doubt the Founding Fathers of the USA could even have conceived of the massive power and influence certain religious organizations and individuals have over modern politics.
> 
> It is utter lunacy to give any political space to organized religion. Citizen's recourse for political influence should stay where it belongs — at the ballot box, through representative democracy (where there are enough other shadowy forces and power blocs to contend with).
> 
> The Guns God and Ammo crowd be damned - politicians like Scheer, who mumble their way through political campaigns and refuse to clearly state the degree to which their religious beliefs may influence their choice of public policy - especially in the case of party leader and potential Prime Minister, need to decide whether the intend to stand in Parliament or the Pulpit. Serve the people and the interests of the many, or serve the narrow, frequently misogynistic and patriarchal, occasionally delusional, belief systems of people who believe in magical beings who live in the sky and who descend from time to time to smite humanity when it misbehaves, or mixes the kinds of cloth they wear, or eats pork, or whatever other stupidity is dictated throughout the dark centuries of mysticism and rejection of reason.


----------



## macintosh doctor

if you think Don Cherry should be fired, but Trudeau shouldn’t, you might be a Liberal.


----------



## FeXL

Whatever could it beeeee?

B.C.’s 13-cent gasoline gap still a mystery, Premier John Horgan says



> *B.C. gasoline prices are still higher than other parts of the country, Premier John Horgan says, and he intends to ask Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to help find out why.*
> 
> Horgan was asked about gasoline prices Tuesday, after the B.C. Utilities Commission released a follow-up report on its investigation into the province’s motor fuel market. That report, by independent experts who regulate electrical and natural gas utilities and ICBC, continues to describe an “unexplained difference of 10 to 13 cents per litre” for gasoline.


Bold mine.

The sound of those two idiots putting their heads together will come off like a gong...


----------



## SINC

What political reporting in Canada has come to.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Shocka...

Legal marijuana has led to increased use, risk for abuse among teens



> An analysis of data from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health has found increased rates of marijuana use and cannabis use disorder among teens since legalization for adults.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Related:

Up In Smoke



> Who could have predicted this?
> 
> Wall Street’s exuberance over legal weed has quickly curdled into sober reality.
> 
> In a matter of months, white-hot cannabis companies have flamed out in spectacular fashion. Many have lost two-thirds or more of their value.
> 
> Widespread legalization has been thwarted. Bank financing has dried up. Deep-pocketed institutional investors remain on the sidelines and old-fashioned black-market dealers still provide stiff competition.
> 
> The pain deepened on Thursday, when Ontario-based Canopy Growth Corp. announced revenue that fell short of the lowest Wall Street estimate and a loss that one analyst called “astounding.” That sent shares to the lowest since December 2017. It’s still the largest pot company in the world, but at C$7.1 billion its market value is just a sliver of the C$24 billion it reached in April.​
> 
> On a day when Canada’s stock market reached an all-time high, shares of cannabis companies continue their downward spiral.
> 
> To save $190 million in planned expenses, the company announced it was halting construction of one production facility in Medicine Hat, Alta. and stopping work at another facility.
> 
> In Montreal, Aurora Cannabis chairman Michael Singer told CTV News, “we are tightening the belt and being very cautious about spending.”
> 
> For the cannabis industry, it’s been a dramatic shift from the abundant investment hype seen during the last year’s lead up to legalization.​
> Anybody with a scintilla of knowledge about the price and availability of pot on the street, that’s who.


:clap::clap::clap:

Only the gov't...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Only the gov't...


I recall people on EhMac arguing that nobody would want to use their old dealers once more expensive government pot became available in stores...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I recall people on EhMac arguing that nobody would want to use their old dealers once more expensive government pot became available in stores...


Yep. The selfsame fools who believe in Globull Warming, wind mills & solar panels, electric cars, Che Guevera, socialism, etc, etc, etc...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Entitled To Their Entitlements



> Blacklocks (behind paywall):
> 
> The Secretary to the Governor General and her assistant billed almost $65,000 in flights and other expenses in eighteen months, nearly fifty times more than her predecessor, according to federal accounts. Expenses by Assunta Di Lorenzo included a $97 lunch and travel to a climate change conference…​
> More detail here.


Very interesting history lesson in a comment from Watcher here.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And... I hear it makes you smarter...



> ...and better looking...
> 
> ♫ You know I've smoked a lot of grass
> O'Lord, I've popped a lot of pills ♫
> 
> _ *Forty per cent of the 23,410 hospital stays for "harm caused by substance use" in 2017-18 were related to cannabis*, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information._​
> That's 9,364 knucklehead dopers taking up valuable hospital beds. Thanks a bunch, bro.


Bold mine.

Another Prog narrative goes up in smoke...


----------



## SINC

The New York Times gets it. 

Canadian Politics Aren’t Cute. They’re Corrupt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/opinion/canada-scandal-justin-trudeau.html


----------



## Beej

A couple months old, but a little multi-thread political humour for followers of the Canadian and American political threads.

Trudeau Claims He Was Known As 'Corn Pop' Until A Cool White Dude Turned His Life Around
https://babylonbee.com/news/trudeau...ntil-a-cool-white-dude-turned-his-life-around



> One day, Corn Pop and Smokey were hanging at the community pool/hockey rink when a white lifeguard named Joey B scolded Corn Pop for not following the rules.


----------



## smashedbanana

Macfury said:


> I recall people on EhMac arguing that nobody would want to use their old dealers once more expensive government pot became available in stores...


I believe the argument (at least I made) was that once the government(s) got legal pot retailing organized and in place it would kill black/grey market. And it was discussed in the context of the cluster F that was the OCS launch.

Big difference.

Never said as soon as legal pot arrives all black/grey market would disappear instantly.


----------



## Macfury

smashedbanana said:


> I believe the argument (at least I made) was that once the government(s) got legal pot retailing organized and in place it would kill black/grey market. And it was discussed in the context of the cluster F that was the OCS launch.
> 
> Big difference.
> 
> Never said as soon as legal pot arrives all black/grey market would disappear instantly.


I remember your argument, which requires time to pass. However, black/grey market continues to remain massive everywhere in Canada after a year.

Stascan says that more people are slowly switching to legal sources. On the other hand if that organization knocked on my door and asked me ANY questions about cannabis, I'd tell them to go to hell. It doesn't pay for anyone to tell them they are using illegal suppliers over legal.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

WTF??!!

U-Haul attacker Sharif wasn't screened by CBSA: Not their job to vet adult refugee claimants



> In September 2017, Sharif went on a rampage in Edmonton outside of an Eskimos game, striking a police officer with his car before stabbing him multiple times. Sharif then commandeered a rental truck and run down four pedestrians. The flag of the terrorist group ISIS was found in the truck by police. Sharif was convicted of five counts of attempted murder -- but inexplicably, he was never charged with terrorism-related offenses in the first place.


More:



> Today we're going to show you what information immigration officials were trying to withhold from the public, what they wanted to release and what they were forced to tell you about.


Stunning...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Scratch A Trudeau



> SHAME: 🇨🇦 *Canada joins the jackals, votes for anti-Israel resolution co-sponsored by North Korea, Zimbabwe & the PLO*. Resolution condemns Israel for "occupying" Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem & holiest sites of Judaism. Ignores hundreds of Palestinian rockets just fired at Israelis. pic.twitter.com/Ov672kgZv7
> 
> — Hillel Neuer (@HillelNeuer) November 19, 2019​


Bold mine.

All countries famous for their civil rights...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> WTF??!!
> 
> U-Haul attacker Sharif wasn't screened by CBSA: Not their job to vet adult refugee claimants
> 
> More:
> 
> Stunning...


Duh! Five counts of attempted murder should be sufficient to put the bum in jail for life. Terrorism is such a vague and unproveable term. IMO it would be stupid to further publicize whatever agenda he might have had by adding terrorism style charges.

In my books this is the sort of violence that should earn him a lifetime of free rent at the nearest maximum security penitentiary.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Duh! Five counts of attempted murder should be sufficient to put the bum in jail for life. Terrorism is such a vague and unproveable term.


I agree. However, if you're packing around an ISIS flag...

That said, the bigger issue for me is that the bastard wasn't screened. How many tens of thousands of others haven't, as well? What exactly is the CBSA doing during the lengthy <snort> 5 day vetting process?


----------



## FeXL

Shiny Marquis De Blackface



> Has appointed his new cabinet. (link fixed)
> 
> Of note: Climate Barbie has been demoted to Minister of Bike Lanes, with Jonathan Wilkinson taking that portfolio.
> 
> Saskatoon-raised Liberal MP Jonathan Wilkinson, a former advisor to Premier Roy Romanow and leader of the Saskatchewan Young New Democrats, has been named federal environment minister.
> 
> Wilkinson was first elected to the House of Commons in 2015, representing the riding of North Vancouver.
> 
> Seamus Oregan in charge of restoring investor confidence in the energy sector in a Trudeau minority government. 😏😟😭 https://t.co/53SZW0O727
> 
> — Michelle Rempel Garner (@MichelleRempel) November 19, 2019​
> Plus gun grabber, Bill Blair takes over the Gun Grabbing Portfolio.
> 
> So, we’re doomed. Thread open.


Climate Bimbetta demoted, the Purple Perogi as intergovernmental affairs, Bill Blair on gun control. What could go wrong?

Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Let The Eastern Bastards Freeze In The Dark



> Not strong enough, Mr. Kenney.
> 
> “We have technology that could guarantee you constant, stable access to propane and other fuels. They’re called pipelines,” he said.
> 
> “If the government of Quebec is concerned about reliable access to propane and other fuels … then we have a very simple message for the government of Quebec: help us build additional pipeline capacity.”
> 
> The comments come after Legault called for an end to the Canadian National (CN) Railway strike, saying the province’s supply of propane will run out in a matter of days.
> 
> The Quebec government is rationing the remaining supply of its propane.
> 
> Legault also called on the federal government to consider back-to-work legislation, if need be.
> 
> Kenney said that Quebec would not need to rely on storage and rationing if there was a way to “ship in” fossil fuels through a pipeline.​
> The strike will end, the propane will resume flowing, and the status quo will return _as though nothing had ever happened._
> 
> Try this next time, Mr. Premier — _“This is Quebec’s opportunity to transition to a fossil fuel free economy — and they can count on us to assist in that.”_
> 
> Related. (h/t Watcher)
> 
> * *Goverment of Quebec*
> 
> Lucky for you Chris’s Propane Emporium is now open!!!
> 
> Only for today 33 Lbs tanks full are $189.95 each. 100lbs tanks full are $489.95 (+ GST). I can arrange shipping & dangerous goods paperwork for an additional fee.
> 
> How many you want? #PropaneConvoy pic.twitter.com/NG9vwxS4Wq
> 
> — Chris Minister of Smartarsery (@Lumberist) November 22, 2019*​


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau win inspires next generation of white men to break the blackface barrier



> With media sources projecting at least a minority government, Canada’s first black and brown prime minister Justin Trudeau has been re-elected.
> 
> The Liberal leader won another hard fought campaign making history as the first person of racist colouring to hold head of government in the country’s 152 year history for a second consecutive time.
> 
> Many had their doubts after Trudeau’s apparent African/Arabian heritage was revealed in a yearbook photo and video, which became a hurdle for the son of a previous Prime Minister.


Related:

Liberal appointed Minister of the Lower Class has to take bus to cabinet meetings



> In the wake of the Liberal government appointing the first Minister for Middle Class Prosperity, the lesser known Minister of the Lower Class will be required to commute to cabinet meetings via bus on an expensive pass he can ill afford.
> 
> Chris Bittle, MP for St. Catharines, was sworn in yesterday in a cheap ceremony at a discount version of Rideau Hall. Bittle will not be allowed to afford a car or receive any other middle class benefits.
> 
> His pay will be reduced to $30,000 instead of the $178,000 salary plus additional cabinet pay his colleagues receive, as well as having his health and dental insurance removed.


----------



## FeXL

As long as Andy 2% remains, it simply dos not matter...

Scheer Fires Staffers While Knives Get Sharpened



> “In that month the people looking to push Scheer out have been talking, meeting, plotting and raising funds. There is plenty of chatter, whispers in every conversation about what is happening. And while few are willing to step forward and say they’re looking to oust Scheer publicly, these movements are real.”
> 
> More, including the plots against him, here….


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Observe closely how they've managed to inveigle the phrase, "Saskatchewan roots" into the headline. Why, suddenly Wilkinson seems almost...human!!!

Trudeau turns to B.C. MP with Saskatchewan roots to helm tricky climate ministry



> He was raised in Saskatoon...and worked as a constitutional negotiator, economic adviser and intergovernmental affairs officer in the NDP government of Premier Roy Romanow.


<sigh> 

So much for his humanistic side...

h/t SDA, from whence comes this prescient snark: Climate Ken??


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

No ****, al Sherlock



> Anthony Furey;
> 
> A number of puzzled columnists and policy experts are currently trying to figure out why it was that Canada under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has broken with its tradition of voting down United Nations resolutions that denounce Israel and – as happened last week – joining the pile-on to condemn the only Jewish state in the world.
> 
> So far the working conclusion they’ve arrived at is that it was done because Trudeau covets a two-year seat at the Security Council and this is one way to win over votes at the notoriously anti-Israel body. That’s no doubt part of it.
> 
> There could be something else at play though: Maybe this is just what Canadian voters want. Or at least what one highly motivated and increasingly influential segment of the electorate wants.
> 
> In the months leading up to the election, a group called The Canadian Muslim-Vote (TCMV) was unapologetic in predicting the power the organized Muslim vote could yield over the 2019 federal election results.
> 
> “The Canadian Muslim community has the numbers to decide the winners and losers this election, which directly impacts the composition of the government we will have,” TCMV executive director Ali Manek wrote in a press release that went out on October 17 – just days before the election. “Muslim voters have turned out to the Advance Polls over Muslim Vote Weekend and we will be there on election day because we understand that we speak the loudest when we vote.”​
> Immigration, multiculturalism, democracy — pick any two.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your tax $$$ at work.

Trudeau “open” to funding heroin supply for addicts in Vancouver



> According to Vancouver mayor Kennedy Stewart, Justin Trudeau is open to the idea of having the federal government fund the supply of heroin to junkies in Vancouver.
> 
> Trudeau spent the day meeting with the mayors of Vancouver and Calgary, where he reportedly spoke about his openness to use taxpayer dollars to buy dangerous drugs.
> 
> Vancouver has applied for federal funding to the tune of $6 million dollars so the city can distribute clinical-grade heroin to opioid addicts. Stewart hopes that Health Canada will exempt the municipality from federal drug laws so that they can deal with the drug legally.


What could possibly go wrong?

After all, the safe injection sites have been such a stunning success already!


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further evidence that nobody is given a thorough vetting, if at all.

Canada gave work permit to Belgian wanted in $10M art fraud, money laundering case



> A Belgian man accused of fraud totalling almost $10 million has been arrested in Montreal after Canadian officials, apparently unaware he was facing serious criminal charges, gave him a work permit.
> 
> David Bertiaux arrived in Canada a year ago, despite having been charged in Belgium in March 2017. Belgian authorities issued a warrant for his arrest after he failed to show up for a court hearing.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Trudeau government warned over NATO Deadbeat status by US



> The Liberal government is facing renewed political pressure from the administration of U.S. President Donald Trump to increase defence spending to meet the benchmark established by NATO.
> 
> Robert O’Brien, the new U.S. national security adviser, said it is an “urgent priority” to get allies across the board to set aside military budgets that are equal to two per cent of the individual country’s gross domestic product.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Forget the cabinet shuffle. What Trudeau needs is an attitude change



> In the case of the Trudeau shuffle, don’t take any of it too seriously. It’s mainly show. Having lost his majority, having shed his always specious charisma, the PM has a profound responsibility to show he has been chastened by the election, by the fractured, fractious mélange of a Parliament it has produced, and now in a wounded second term is going to seriously revise his approach to being prime minister.


More:



> *Start by showing, Prime Minister, that it is a country you lead, not some boutique for trendy causes or a display case for the very freshest “progressive” attitudes.*


Bold mine.

With all respect due, Rex, Blackie McGroper prefers a boutique...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

While Trudeau blasts Israel, China gets a pass



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s foreign policy took an alarming turn last week.
> 
> Trudeau reversed Canada’s long-standing policy on Israel by siding with such bastions of democracy as North Korea in passing a resolution condemning the world’s only Jewish state at the United Nations.
> 
> This while Trudeau’s Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said Friday that Canada doesn’t consider China an adversary.
> 
> Never mind that Israel is Canada’s ally.


----------



## SINC

More truth than fiction!


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Yeah, yeah... we're all shocked



> _The cost to run the Senate of Canada has increased by more than a third over the last five years as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's reform agenda has led, in part, to increased expenditures in the upper house._


But it's OK! It's for a good cause.

Nobody's sure just what the hell the cause is yet, but it's OK...


----------



## eMacMan

This is wrong on so many levels. Yes there are individuals in dire need of a transplant. That said if I want to donate my organs, I will make that very clear by informing my wife, carrying a donor card and where applicable noting it on my drivers license.

The presumed consent approach is ill-disguised vulturism. Why not double down and solve the homeless problem by harvesting their organs without consent?

https://calgaryherald.com/health/wa...onsent-could-shorten-transplant-waiting-lists



> And it’s his beloved Keenie’s struggles to secure one of the small handful of donor livers that become available every year that’s made Jake a staunch advocate for Canada to adopt what’s called a presumed consent, or opt out, model of organ donation. The model places the onus of opting out from organ donation on the families of those deemed eligible to donate organs after death.
> 
> It’s an idea that’s taken root in dozens of countries, particularly in Europe and South America, some of which boast some of the most robust deceased donor rates globally.
> 
> Spain, which has had a presumed consent model for deceased organ donation for 40 years, has long been recognized as the top performer globally, with its 47 donors per million population more than doubling Canada’s existing rate of around 22 per million. Out of the top 15 countries for organ donation (of which Canada ranks 15th), nine have either implicit or explicit presumed consent models.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Art Of The Deal



> Trump asked Trudeau how much Canada spends on defence.
> 
> Trudeau dodged; Trump asked again.
> 
> Trudeau panicked, and lied. He said 1.4% of GDP. (It’s actually 1.27%.)
> 
> So… did Trump just get Trudeau to commit to a $2.6B/year increase? #ArtOfTheDeal pic.twitter.com/34707sGlvi
> 
> — Ezra Levant 🍁 (@ezralevant) December 3, 2019​


And, _and_, just like last year, Groper McBlackface was quiet as a church mouse until Trump left the room, then he started beaking off. What a hero...

Related:

From Blackface To Two-Faced



> He’s always the life of the party.
> 
> Update:
> 
> #Breaking Prime Minister Trudeau admits he was discussing President Trump last night when he referred to "the impromptu press conference" that was caught on camera. Trudeau says surprise he referred to was that next G7 will be at Camp David #cdnpoli #CdnFP #NATO
> 
> — Mercedes Stephenson (@MercedesGlobal) December 4, 2019​
> UH OH.
> 
> According to documents obtained from the Department of National Defence, the federal government underspent roughly $7.79 billion worth of promised money mostly for capital projects, which includes everything from spending on facilities to equipment and military procurement, in fiscal 2017-18 and 2018-19.
> 
> The unspent money also came from areas including operations and maintenance, those documents dated from February 2019 suggest.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was asked by Global News about that failure to spend the promised amounts during a press conference on Wednesday from the NATO meeting, and pointed the finger at past governments.​


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

C'est What?



> Now you're just being *"Le Dickhead"...*
> 
> _Federal employees write too many English emails, says Official Languages Commissioner Raymond Théberge._​


Links' emphasis.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

They Always Get Their Jet Skis



> Liberals corrupt everything they touch.
> 
> The Royal Canadian Mounted Police owe the managers of the Aga Khan’s private island in the Bahamas more than $56,000 for meals, accommodations and jet ski rentals during Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s controversial vacation, CBC News has learned.
> 
> Three years after the trip, the force has not yet reimbursed the costs “despite efforts made to do so,” said RCMP spokeswoman Acting Sergeant Caroline Duval.[/INDENT​


​


----------



## SINC

Understanding Canada's energy needs.

*OPINION | Some hard truths (and a dirty little secret) about Canadian energy*



> _This is an opinion piece from Brian Jean, who was MLA for Fort McMurray-Conklin in northern Alberta from 2015-2018. He led Alberta's Opposition as Wildrose Party leader for two years and ran to lead the UCP when his party merged with the PCs in 2017 but lost to Jason Kenney. Before that, he represented the Athabasca and Fort McMurray regions as a Conservative MP for a decade._
> 
> Alberta's energy sector is the goose that lays golden eggs for Canada.
> 
> It has attracted millions of young, hardworking people to Alberta. It is the reason why Alberta contributes more financially to Canada than any other sub-national region in any other country contributes to its central government.
> 
> Quebec is sustained by equalization dollars that come from Alberta. If Ottawa has tax revenue to distribute as equalization, it is because hardworking Albertans and the energy industry are paying those taxes.
> 
> Ottawa benefits from all the wealth that Alberta's energy creates, so much so that a two-month cratering of Alberta's oil prices in the last quarter of 2018 slashed national GDP growth to zero.
> 
> That massive financial benefit is now at risk because of short-sighted decisions by politicians.
> 
> Alberta has oil that the world wants to buy, that Canadians want to buy, but Canadian politicians don't want to make the reasonable accommodations that would let us sell it.
> 
> Recently politicians have been focused on the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion (TMX). That is good, but we need more than that. TMX isn't enough to make Albertans stop worrying about being taken for granted by Canada and it isn't enough to ensure Alberta's and Canada's long-term prosperity.
> 
> Alberta produces just under four million barrels of oil per day (bpd). We consume about 25 per cent of that in Canada and we sell the rest to Trump's America — at a discount.
> 
> America is our only foreign customer. They are also our top competitor.
> 
> Because of fracking discoveries, the U.S. is now the world's top producer of oil. They don't really need our oil and they need less every day. That is part of the reason why our oil sells at a discount that Alberta's former NDP government concluded was costing the Canadian economy $84 million a day.
> 
> TMX will hardly change that.
> 
> It's a dirty little secret that most of the new TMX oil will be sold to U.S. west coast refineries. Very little of it will go to China, Japan, Korea or India, despite the fact that all of them want it. At most TMX will sell a few hundred thousand barrels a day to Asia.
> 
> You see, Vancouver's shallow port can't accommodate modern supertankers.
> 
> Most oil gets shipped in two million-plus barrel supertankers, but Vancouver can only handle 800 thousand barrel ships, and those can only be three-quarters filled before they bottom out.
> 
> The cost advantages of transporting Alberta oil in efficient supertankers will never happen via Vancouver. And that means TMX alone won't lead to a growing Alberta energy industry.
> 
> If Alberta's energy industry isn't growing, it will never again fill the 30 per cent of downtown Calgary that is currently empty. It's that simple and that bleak.
> 
> Canada needs a growing energy industry in Alberta. To be successful we need to sell more than two million barrels a day to a customer that isn't the Americans. That's Asia or, better yet, Canada.
> 
> What Alberta needs is a deep-water export pipeline to Asia or the Energy East pipeline to eastern Canada. Either would lead to a booming Alberta economy, which could sustain the Canada we all know.
> 
> That is what Alberta would have, if we were the only decider on this file — if just economics went into making this decision.
> 
> It's time our politicians were honest with Albertans and Canadians.
> 
> TMX is a start, but it isn't enough.
> 
> We need to work on a solution that gets Alberta a customer, other than the Americans, for two million barrels a day of oil.
> 
> That customer should be the rest of Canada.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...Mh30on8GMZFkbUPe9Y36-vaNyREiARp_YIdOfH84gZmL8


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Damn.

Trudeau's plane damaged, now backup plane grounded in London, U.K.



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s bad luck with planes continues.
> 
> He was forced to use a back-up aircraft Monday to ferry him to London for a NATO summit because the usual prime ministerial jet was damaged in a hangar accident last month.
> 
> But after he got to London, the Royal Canadian Air Force discovered a problem with one of the engines on the backup plane during a post-flight inspection.
> 
> The RCAF says that plane, a CC-150 Polaris, is being repaired but is temporarily “unserviceable.”
> 
> So, the RCAF has commandeered another CC-150 Polaris — which was in Italy with Gov. Gen. Julie Payette, who has been on a European tour of her own — to take Trudeau, his entourage and accompanying media back to Ottawa.


I was rather hoping we'd get a week or so off from the bastard...


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

That explains The Dope's emasculation, donit...

Scientists Discover New Link Between Marijuana Smoking And Testicular Cancer Risk



> There's new evidence that a daily marijuana-smoking habit could increase your risk of testicular cancer.
> 
> A study published Wednesday in JAMA Network Open found that men who smoked one marijuana cigarette, or joint, daily for 10 years or more had an estimated 36 percent increased risk of developing testicular cancer compared with men who had never smoked the substance.
> 
> To come to their conclusion, researchers analysed 25 studies that looked at the link between marijuana use and testicular cancer, lung cancer, oral cancer, and head and neck cancer.
> 
> Though the researchers found no association between regular marijuana use and lung, neck, or oral cancer, they did find that regular weed smoking over many years could heighten a man's risk of testicular cancer.


----------



## FeXL

Could've been worse, say Conservatives...



> ...he might have *appointed a current sitting Liberal...*
> 
> _ "Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer said Thursday that despite considerable party infighting over his future as leader, he will remain at the helm, and as *a show of how he intends to change the party*, he’s appointed Toronto-area MP Leona Alleslev, a floor-crossing former Liberal as his number two."_​


Links' bold.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Could've been worse, say Conservatives...


Reaching across the aisle as I hoped he would... Scheer was a terrible choice from Day One.


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Now Is The Time At SDA When We Juxtapose!

From the comments:



> Trump gets the last laugh.
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/201...ams-trudeau-after-canada-loses-over-70k-jobs/


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Now Is The Time At SDA When We Juxtapose!
> 
> From the comments:


One month of employment data is not a good indicator. For example, over the past year, 293,000 jobs were added in Canada while 2.2 million were added in the U.S. Given the population difference, that makes Canada's job growth about 10% faster. I don't think that's enough data to demonstrate whose economic policies are better, but it does counter the narrative. 

Sources:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/191206/dq191206a-eng.htm
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PAYEMS#0


----------



## SINC

Watch this and tell me we have a climate emergency.

It is a carefully manufactured emergency to raise money to put towards a global government. Lies, all lies and Trudeau has fallen for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-vFIiWJKLs


----------



## Macfury

Trudeau hasn't fallen for it. He's a globalist who _wants_ to give up sovereignty to the UN.


----------



## SINC

The inevitable Trudeau recession will ravage the West and the middle class

https://business.financialpost.com/...5DUx5_44JNbyEZs0dXjLmQQpCQqOjy-jlE9oJqP5NrxOY


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*



Beej said:


> One month of employment data is not a good indicator.



You are correct, sir!

Especially when it's a federal election month...

Statistics Liberal: For The Record



> This headline;
> 
> …is the result of Statistics Canada suppressing job loss data in the weeks prior to the October 21st election, then dumping it into November data.


Bastards...


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> You are correct, sir!
> 
> Especially when it's a federal election month...
> 
> Statistics Liberal: For The Record
> 
> 
> 
> Bastards...


That is in keeping with ehmac's standards for evidence. If you post it a second time that would really clinch it. beejacon


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> That is in keeping with ehmac's standards for evidence. If you post it a second time that would really clinch it. beejacon


<snort...>


----------



## FeXL

*Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Blackface crayon not included...

Justin Trudeau “Mr. Dress-up” colouring book for sale on Amazon



> You can now purchase a Justin Trudeau Mr. Dress-Up colouring book from the online platform, and join in the PM’s famous and sometimes disastrously controversial love for costumes.
> 
> The book includes some of Trudeau’s most known costume choices, including Aladdin in blackface.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Blackface crayon not included...
> 
> Justin Trudeau “Mr. Dress-up” colouring book for sale on Amazon


I thought the Liebarrels referred to it as brown face, an oblivious euphemism for $#!7 face.


----------



## FeXL

Blackballed: Defining Maxime Bernier



> Racist. White nationalist. White supremacist. Bigot.
> 
> During the 2019 federal election, those inflammatory words were used by various members of the media, and the public at large, when describing Maxime Bernier, the one-time-Conservative-cabinet-minister-turned-leader of the People’s Party of Canada. The coverage was relentless and unforgiving, and eventually Bernier’s new federal party was left without a single seat. Even Bernier himself, who had held his seat for thirteen years, lost his riding.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau met with Trump to explain away hot mic moment before being called 'two-faced'



> Hours before being called "two-faced," Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau met with President Trump to explain the "context" surrounding a conversation caught on a hot microphone at this week's NATO summit during which Trudeau and other world leaders are heard making fun of the American president.


Explain away? That's easy.

"Hi, I'm Blackface McGroper and I'm a horse's ass!"

Done & done...


----------



## Macfury

Good first step:

https://nationalpost.com/news/andrew-scheer-resigns-as-conservative-leader

Scheer needed to go, simply because he wasn't really a conservative.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Scheer needed to go, simply because he wasn't really a conservative.


Among a slew of somewhat lesser, other reasons.

One of the pundits I read noted that, with the recent Liberal crossover, Groper McBlackface now controls two parties... :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


>




^^^


----------



## Macfury

Wow, you guys are really into hate speech!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

We had a throne speech? Who knew? (Or cares...)

Judging by the throne speech, Canada is en route to a train wreck



> The throne speech in Ottawa on Dec. 5 was a thoroughly depressing occasion. The attempt at solemnity failed. The Senate chamber was much too crowded; the audience looked like humanoid sardines; too many of the people in colourful ceremonial costume were implausible, bulged in their clothing, and emphasized the anachronistic aspect of the whole occasion. The Governor General was gracious and amicable and delivered the address unexceptionably, but dressed in black, she looked like the female clergy at a Hutterite funeral.


With all respect due to Conrad (which, admittedly, is very damn little to begin with),

1) How many Hutterite funerals has he actually been to?
2) I didn't need no stinking Throne Speech to tell me Groper McBlackface is heading, full tilt, for a train wreck.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Thanks, but no thanks...

Trudeau’s special representative to the Prairies looking to listen



> Carr, a former natural resources minister, said he’ll look to address grievances with the current state of confederation as well as the next phase of developing it.
> 
> Tackling Alberta’s economic woes will also make up a large part of his work.
> 
> Carr said that includes pushing forward on the Trans Mountain Pipeline expansion — an issue raised immediately in a December 10th meeting with Alberta Premier Jason Kenney.


More:



> “*It was an intelligent conversation* between leaders of such an important province and of the Government of Canada..."


Bull$h!t...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

First off, tell your heritage minister to either grow a beard or shave the stubble off. He looks like the south end of a northbound skunk.

Trudeau says regulating social media “hate speech” is “top priority” for heritage minister



> Canada’s new heritage minister must work to regulate social media companies that don’t swiftly remove “hate speech” from their platforms, according to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
> 
> Trudeau’s mandate letter for Minister Steven Guilbeault was released Friday morning, laying out what Trudeau sees as being the “top priorities” for the file.


And whatever Groper McBlackface doesn't like is hate speech...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Budgets balance themselves!!!

Trudeau’s $1-billion surplus now a $26.6-billion deficit



> Finance Minister Bill Morneau on Monday added another chapter to the book of fairy tale accounting authored by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau since he was elected in 2015.
> 
> During that election, Trudeau promised — not predicted, promised during one of the televised leaders’ debates — that the Canadian government under his leadership would have a $1 billion surplus this year.


We need to have some system in place whereby broken election promises are dealt with _immediately_. No budget surplus as promised? Yer outta there. _Now._ Your clothing & personal effects will be shipped via CanPost. And say goodbye to your gold-plated pension plan, as well.

I'm tired of the fukcing lies and the idiots who either believe them or don't care...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Budgets balance themselves!!!
> 
> Trudeau’s $1-billion surplus now a $26.6-billion deficit
> 
> 
> 
> We need to have some system in place whereby broken election promises are dealt with _immediately_. No budget surplus as promised? Yer outta there. _Now._ Your clothing & personal effects will be shipped via CanPost. And say goodbye to your gold-plated pension plan, as well.
> 
> I'm tired of the fukcing lies and the idiots who either believe them or don't care...


Canada's prog contingent loves deficits as long as they're generated by spending on projects designed to assuage their guilt.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Canada has a secret program that grants visas to war criminals, terrorists, security threats



> Three months before he boarded a plane in Cairo and six months before he made a refugee claim in Toronto, Canadian security officials deemed retired Brig.-Gen. Khaled Saber Abdelhamed Zahw “inadmissible” to Canada because of national security concerns.
> 
> Zahw was a “high-ranking” member of Egypt’s military when it orchestrated a coup of President Mohamed Morsi’s government in 2013, according to the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA).
> 
> An inadmissibility finding would keep most people out of Canada, but it didn’t stop Zahw and his wife from obtaining valid visitor visas from the Canadian embassy in Egypt in April 2015.
> 
> This is because, according to internal government documents obtained by Global News, *Canada has a secret program that allows certain “high-profile” foreign nationals who would otherwise be barred from entering the country due to national security concerns, war crimes, human rights violations and organized crime to be granted special “public policy” entry visas so long as it is in Canada’s “national interest.”*


Bold mine.

Niiiice...


----------



## eMacMan

Will post this with just this comment; If the True Dope were in jail then justice would indeed have been served.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...280m/wcm/b1b625b3-d213-4f5b-854c-95dd53abbc21


> “Ultimately, that system was able to do its work — as democracy and good governance requires — and an outcome was reached today. Accountability was achieved. 2019 began with very public questions about the rule of law in our country. I am glad to see it end with that principle being upheld. The justice system did its work. It is time to move forward and for the company to look to its future.”


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Facial recognition ‘confirmed’ Ajax developer was wanted crime boss, but CBSA couldn’t prove it



> Canadian immigration officers alleged in 2015 that an Ajax, Ont., developer had entered the country using a false identity and was actually a crime leader wanted in Bangladesh, according to documents obtained by Global News.
> 
> But despite writing in a report that they had “confirmed, through facial recognition” that Md. Tarekh Rana was a fugitive, the officers at the Toronto immigration enforcement centre did not proceed with a case against him.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Brownie McBlackface is an f'ing hypocrite...

Justin Trudeau Wants ‘Significant Penalties’ for Social Media ‘Hate Speech’

Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

The Libranos: SNC Lavalin



> Let’s not forget them.
> 
> After Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s failed efforts to see SNC-Lavalin avoid prosecution led to him losing two key ministers, his edge in the polls and (almost) his party’s hold on government, the Quebec engineering firm at the centre of the controversy walked away today with a plea deal that looks a lot like what it asked the government for in the first place.
> 
> A judge on Thursday accepted the plea deal that a division of SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. struck with the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). Under the agreement, the company pleaded guilty to one charge of fraud over $5,000 in relation to the company’s activities in Libya.
> 
> All other charges have been dropped.​
> Main take away: _*“So we’re very happy that it’s now over. We are free to bid as normal. This guilty plea does not prevent construction, or any other entity of the group, to bid on public contracts.”*_


Bold mine.

Go figger.

Check the cancelled cheques file for a $280 million from the Feds...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Growing The Economy From The Heart Out

"Unexpectedly"? :yikes:

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Diversity Is Their Strength!



> I have no sources. I only report internet rumours.
> 
> Popular rumour. I bet the Ottawa press corps knows? Look at soapies Instagram. It looks like a single mom's account. https://t.co/ViwDZ9vrwe
> 
> — Mr Stache (@MrStache9) December 23, 2019​


That would truly, truly, suck... :-(

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

"The Loneliness will Balance Itself"



> _And then he took two nannies and a dozen armed guards to the airport, climbed aboard a taxpayer-funded jet and *flew to Costa Rico....*
> OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is urging Canadians to do what they do best this time of year *• lend a hand where a hand is needed.*
> 
> Trudeau says it’s the season for giving, and for *giving back and reaching out to neighbours* who might be alone for the holidays._​


Links' bold.

Here, Groper McBlackface. Take my hand. Please... beejacon


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Because you wanted to know



> Here are some recent press releases from the office of the Prime Minister of Canada:
> 
> Christmas
> 
> Vacation – Costa Rica – Personal


Yer tax $$$ at work...


----------



## SINC

If you don't think the CBC is controlled and manipulated by the Turdeau Liberals, why else would they bother to cut a few insignificant seconds out of a movie?

Trump slams Trudeau after cameo cut from CBC broadcast of 'Home Alone 2'

https://thestarphoenix.com/entertai...H3In8YNQWK-yxuIpOl8tWQA7PY#Echobox=1577499944


----------



## FUXL

In case you didn't hear, dickhea d, the movie was edited when yo' 'Berta boy ruled.

Just another hurting' Albertun. 




SINC said:


> If you don't think the CBC is controlled and manipulated by the Turdeau Liberals, why else would they bother to cut a few insignificant seconds out of a movie?
> 
> Trump slams Trudeau after cameo cut from CBC broadcast of 'Home Alone 2'
> 
> https://thestarphoenix.com/entertai...H3In8YNQWK-yxuIpOl8tWQA7PY#Echobox=1577499944


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Yeah. And?

Did MotherCorpse suddenly do a massive 180 when Harper was in? Nope. As a matter of fact, they doubled down on their Prog bull$h!t & lies in a transparent attempt to get rid of him.

Go back to pulling your pud in your Priapus...



FUXL said:


> In case you didn't hear, dickhea d, the movie was edited when yo' 'Berta boy ruled.


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> In case you didn't hear, dickhea d, the movie was edited when yo' 'Berta boy ruled.
> 
> Just another hurting' Albertun.


.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Elections Librano



> I’m not the only Canadian journalist to write a book about Trudeau during the campaign. So did two pro-Trudeau left-wingers — Aaron Wherry of the CBC state broadcaster and John Ivison of Postmedia, the largest recipient of Trudeau’s newspaper bail-out.
> 
> Neither of them is being investigated for writing their books. Only me.​


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Elections Librano


I have zero use for Ezra Levant, however this sort of weaponizing of the legal system to protect the government and the True Dope himself from critics is absolutely obscene.

Guess if your goal is a globalist one world government, this sort of repression is absolutely critical to making it happen. Right along with nation wide gun seizure.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Just Legalize Pot, They Said.



> “Think of the tax revenues”, they said: Cannabis sector bracing for wave of insolvencies in 2020


Merely another shining example of precisely why gov't should keep it's cotton picking hands out of business. Period.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your tax $$$ at work.

Trudeau Govt Provide ONE BILLION Tax Dollars To Top Christian-Persecuting Nations Of The World



> Which countries are found on the Open Doors Canada’s list of the top Christian-persecuting nations in the world?
> 
> Here are a few leaders:
> 
> *#2-Afghanistan:* Afghan citizens are _not allowed_ to become *Christians,* and both their communities and families put them under immense pressure to ensure they don’t convert. Leaving Islam to become a Christian is seen as a *betrayal* and brings shame to *Muslim families.* Relatives will do _everything they can_ to bring converts back to Islam, including *acts of violence.*
> 
> Trudeau Government tax-payer fund transfer to *Afghanistan:* According to Canadian International Development Platform: *$254 Million* in 2018 _alone_.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

'Cauth $1.2 Billion/year doesn't buy nearly enough brand loyalty...

Liberals pledge more taxpayer funding for the CBC



> The Liberal government has pledged to increase funding for CBC News next year.
> 
> Canadian Heritage and Multiculturalism Minister Steven Guilbeault wants the CBC to increase local news coverage and to work with smaller platforms.
> 
> Guilbeault said that while he hasn’t spoken to the CBC about the project, the broadcaster would receive additional funding for the effort.
> 
> The CBC currently receives $1.2 billion in taxpayer dollars every year despite steadily losing revenue and an audience. The exact amount of funding the CBC could expect to receive next year was not revealed by the minister


----------



## FeXL

Whaddya suggest, Jaggers?

Perhaps a cheque for a couple billion $$$ to assist the terrorists in finding a new leader?

They All Look Alike To Him

F'ing Prog idiot...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

New Costa Rica photos raise questions about Trudeau’s vacation spending



> Photos of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on his vacation in Costa Rica are showing up on social media, leading to questions on the cost and carbon footprint of his vacation.
> 
> Photos over the past few days have popped up on social media, triggering questions over the cost of Trudeau’s vacation to the taxpayer.


More:



> One question of contention, however, is how the prime minister got to Santa Theresa, which is a five hour drive and one ferry ride away from the Capital City, San Jose.
> 
> Model and actress Theresa Longo, who was in Santa Theresa at the time, told _The Post Millennial_ that she saw Trudeau arrive in a “grey government looking plane and a couple helicopters.”
> 
> *If Trudeau did indeed need three separate aircrafts for what would have otherwise been a five hour car journey, then the prime minister may face criticism for his taxpayer-funded opulence, as he did when he went on the trip to the Aga Khan’s private island for Christmas in 2016.*


Bold mine.

Relax, folks! S'okay. He's a _liberal..._

Related:

dilated pupils much Mr. Prime Minister? Must be the moonless Costa Rican nights.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Liberals invoke the great carbon tax swindle



> OK, let’s get this straight: not only will I save us all from being boiled alive, but I’ll also make money on the deal?
> 
> Well, what’s not to like about the federally imposed carbon tax; one we start shelling out for in a few days.
> 
> Maybe this fight against climate change isn’t so difficult after all. Or perhaps — though, please, just whisper it — the entire scheme isn’t truly serious: instead, it’s merely another example of virtue signalling by the Trudeau government, merrily allied to a bit of wealth redistribution.
> 
> Because if Canadians were actually told to dig deeper into their own personal pockets to fund the battle against this apparent existential threat to humanity, then the hot air would come out of the green movement so fast it’d make a snowman, caught by those chinook winds, appear steadfast in comparison.


----------



## FeXL

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Progs want you to vote at 16 but ya can't light up a reefer for another 5 years.

Legal age to buy cannabis in Quebec is now 21, the highest in Canada



> As of Jan. 1, 2020, the legal age to buy or possess cannabis in Quebec is 21, giving the province the highest minimum age for cannabis use in Canada.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

I think it's more likely that he just doesn't care.

Trudeau just doesn't get Western alienation as he inflicts two more hits to the West’s economy



> The prime minister just doesn’t get Western alienation. Either that or he is so obsessed with his green image he doesn’t care. After rejection by two-thirds of voters, with support from less than 22 per cent of the total electorate and only four out of 62 seats in the Prairie provinces, Trudeau is downplaying regional “frustrations,” saying they do not amount to a national unity crisis.


Ain't no fool like a progressive fool...


----------



## SINC

Once a dumbass, always a dumbass department:

*FAIL: Jagmeet Singh Slams US Airstrike, Gets Country Wrong*

https://www.spencerfernando.com/202...FuG7GTihnGahRAn67XA3IEV_EHP6sUPpD5HYgMmTQSlnU


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Yer tax $$$ at work.

Trudeau’s Costa Rica vacation enters third week



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s vacation in Costa Rica has officially entered its third week.
> 
> According to the Prime Minister’s official itinerary, Justin Trudeau has been in Costa Rica for “personal” reasons since December 20th, 2019.


More:



> True North’s Leo Knight wonders how much work the prime minister really does, given Trudeau’s high number of personal days.
> 
> “By my count, Trudeau has taken 48 ‘private’ days and 107 ‘personal’ days this year and only been in Question Period less than 30 times. This Prime Minister thinks his job is a part-time job,” he said.


And thankfully so! Can you imagine the FUBAR we'd have if Groper McBlackface made it in to work every day?


----------



## FeXL

The iron...

‘World is much safer’: Toronto’s Iranian community reacts to U.S. airstrike that killed Iranian commander



> Members of Toronto’s Iranian community say the news that Iranian commander Qassem Soleimani was killed in a targeted attack by the United States at Baghdad’s international airport Friday means the world is a safer place.
> 
> Soleimani led Iran’s elite Quds Force that is responsible for the country’s foreign campaigns. The strike also killed many of Soleimani’s associates.
> 
> A demonstration by Iranian Canadians supporting the strike took place at Mel Lastman Square in Toronto Friday afternoon.


If only we could get our spineless, witless federal politicians onside now...


----------



## Beej

Yaniv is still harassing minority women.

Jessica Yaniv sues more women salon owners for wax job refusal 
https://www.thepostmillennial.com/b...-more-women-salon-owners-for-wax-job-refusal/


> The She Point Beauty Salon, owned and operated by women of the Sikh religion, has become the newest target for Yaniv’s litigation after declining Yaniv a leg wax.



From an embedded link in the article, a reminder about Yaniv.


> The Tribunal found that Yaniv has a “grievance” against certain ethnic groups and targeted them out of racial animus to “punish” them for their cultural and religious views. Yaniv has made derogatory public comments about East Indians and Sikhs, as well as immigrants generally.
> 
> In one such comment cited by the Tribunal, Yaniv stated:
> 
> “We have a lot of immigrants here who gawk and judge and aren’t exactly the cleanest people. They’re also verbally and physically abusive, that’s one main reason why I joined a girls gym, cause I DON’T want issues with these people, nor do I want anything to do with them in anyway, shape or form.They lie about ****, they’ll do anything to support their own kind and make things miserable for everyone else.”


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Someone woke Prinz Dummkopf from his grass-induced stupor in Costa Rica?

Justin Trudeau vows to 'get answers' after Ukrainian passenger jet crash in Iran that killed 176 people, including 63 Canadians, as Tehran refuses to hand over jet's black box



> Justin Trudeau has today vowed to get answers after 177 people including 63 Canadians died in a plane crash near Tehran, with Iran blaming an engine fire but refusing to hand over the recovered black boxes.
> 
> The Boeing 737 jet came down just minutes after take-off from Imam Khomeini International Airport early this morning, sparking fresh alarm in the Middle East hours after Iran launched missile strikes on US bases.
> 
> Three Britons and 63 Canadians were among the 168 passengers and nine crew on board the Ukrainian International Airlines flight to Kyiv. There were no survivors.
> 
> Today Trudeau offered his 'deepest condolences' to the victims' families and vowed: 'Our government will continue to work closely with its international partners to ensure that this crash is thoroughly investigated, and that Canadians' questions are answered.'


Vowed? Vowed!!! You go, tiger! :lmao:

If these had been oil workers from Calgary named Jim Smith & Bob Jones, he'd have rolled over & hit the snooze button. Jes' sayin'.

BTW, don't forget to turn on the water works during your photo op...


----------



## eMacMan

One of the True Dopes more idiotic statements:


> The Canadian government issued a travel advisory Wednesday morning to avoid all non-essential travel to Iran.
> 
> 
> “Avoid non-essential travel to Iran due to the volatile security situation, the regional threat of terrorism and the risk of arbitrary detention.”


Translated from dopelspeak into English we have: "The US will probably bomb you into oblivion should you go to Iran."


----------



## FeXL

Jean qui?



> Jean Charest looks set to run for leader of the federal Conservatives:
> 
> Former Quebec premier Jean Charest is keeping his powder dry but those who have spoken to him are under no illusions – he is in as a contender for the federal Conservative leadership, with his official announcement expected later this month.
> 
> Former political adversaries are already using their bully pulpits to take a pop at him. Former Parti Québécois cabinet minister Joseph Facal wrote a barbed attack Tuesday in Le Journal de Montréal that suggested Charest is addicted to the political jousting, the exercise of power, the limelight and the adrenaline but has little to offer beyond personal ambition.​


:yikes:

First comment nails it...


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

CBC wants more money to broadcast less Canadian content



> Imagine that you ran a business where you gave a key employee a raise — not a small one but a significant pay hike — and the worker turned around and said that he or she should do less work for more money.
> 
> That is what CBC is doing to the Canadian taxpayer right now.
> 
> After getting a boost from taxpayers under the Trudeau Liberals, the state broadcaster is asking to broadcast less Canadian content. Or, as I like to say, they want to do less of what we pay them for while taking more of our money.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Why Justin Trudeau’s beard matters

I got more hair on my backside than that sorry bastard has on his face. Looks twice as good, too...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Jean qui?
> 
> 
> 
> :yikes:
> 
> First comment nails it...


Good grief. Hated him when he was a so-called conservative, and don't trust him any more now.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau's carbon footprint, and Canada's, keep growing



> Despite the constant virtue-signalling from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on human-induced climate change, his personal carbon footprint, along with Canada’s, is rising.
> 
> The reason with regard to Trudeau, as documented by reporter Bryan Passifiume in Monday’s _Toronto Sun_, is the PM’s love of jet setting to exotic locations for his family vacations, air travel being one of the fastest-growing and most environmentally-destructive sources of industrial greenhouse gas emissions.


More:



> If the 2018 number is accurate — Doan said the environment ministry withdrew it from its website and refused to confirm it when _Blacklock’s Reporter_ started asking questions — it means *Canada’s emissions are back to the same level they were in the last year of prime minister Stephen Harper’s government in 2015. Without a carbon tax.*


Bold mine.

Anybody who believes that the carbon tax was anything more than a cash grab (as opposed to an effective way to lower GHG's) is a Prog idiot.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Canada Touts How 'Assisted Suicide' Is Providing Human Spare Parts. So Hurry Up and Die, Already.



> The death-cult bankrolled by George Soros promised us when they pushed "assisted suicide" that there'd be no killing people for spare parts. But Ottawa, Canada, just gave up the game.
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen newspaper puts some pretty, pretty pink lipstick on the correlation between doctors committing "assisted suicide" and the sudden plethora of spare human body parts for those needing organ transplants.
> 
> The headline tells it all: "Medically assisted deaths prove a growing boon to organ donation in Ontario."


For those of you who have noticed the new character in my Prinz Dummkopf-related posts, it's in honour of his new goat-thing. I, too, recall shaving with a nail-clipper. I think it was in 8th grade...


----------



## eMacMan

Looks like the True Dope has found yet another way to irritate Albertans. Of course his Carbon tax kicked in around New Years. Gas prices have gone up not 4.4¢/Litre, but 5 or 6¢/Litre. That of course was to be expected, his lips were moving therefore it was highly likely he was lying.

However the promised rebates are nowhere to be found. Turns out they will be sent out in the form of a refund on the 2020 tax returns. IOW Albertans will not see hide nor hair of those rebates for at least 18months.

Now as to heating bills for any Albertan to notice the difference, the feds would have to insist the gouge fees be relegated to the trash bin. I have had bills where less than 10% of the gas bill went to natural gas the rest was gouge fees. Even a five dollar price hikes will be almost impossible to detect given that game, and no one is going to freeze their a55 to try to reduce their monthly gas consumption by a gigajoule, when doing so will have almost zero effect on their bill.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Turns out they will be sent out in the form of a refund on the 2020 tax returns.


Borrowing taxpayer money at zero interest.


----------



## SINC

I just went out and cranked the back garage thermostat to 70° instead of 50°. Might as well be toasty warm for another $2 a month as gas is so cheap. Gough fees will be over $200 a month now with actual gas consumption about $30. Dirty bastards (meaning Turdeau)
charging us about $40 a month in carbon tax alone or 133% tax on gas.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## FeXL

Sarnia-Lambton MP running for Conservative leadership



> *Sarnia-Lambton MP Marilyn Gladu says she wants to lead Canada’s Conservative party into the next election and move it closer to the political centre.*
> 
> “We know that Canadians care about fiscal responsibility. They want a strong economy, jobs, lower taxes,” the Petrolia-are resident said Thursday while announcing her candidacy in the June 27 leadership convention to replace outgoing Conservative Party of Canada leader Andrew Scheer.


Bold mine.

In order to do that, she's going to have to move _right..._


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Justin Trudeau Sends IRAN $2.5 Million Dollars In Foreign Aid



> There is a page on the internet where interested parties can see for themselves the amount of Canadian tax-payer dollars the Trudeau government sends to hundreds of Third World Nations each year.
> 
> For the year 2018, the Trudeau government handed $2.5 million dollars to the nation of Iran, ostensibly for the purpose of feeding their poor. Interesting to note how Canadian establishment media never dwell on the topic of Canadian aid to foreign governments.


More:



> The good news? The Trudeau government only gave Iran $2.5 million in 2018. How can this be good news for Canadian patriots? Because of the amount Trudeau gave to Iran’s brethren nations in the Middle East and Africa.
> 
> Try $254 Million to Afghanistan, $198 Million to Ethiopia, and $124 Million to Syria. Therefore, relatively speaking, Iran’s 2.5 Million is a mere “drop in the bucket.”


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Pssst… CBC, The Trudeau Government is a Security Risk … U.S. should have warned Canada of plan to kill Iranian general, say government sources



> Canada should have been warned in advance by the Americans of U.S. President Donald Trump’s plan to kill a high-ranking Iranian military general with a drone strike, say two senior government sources.


<snort>

More:



> _The Trudeau government was treated like any other security risk, they were kept in the dark.
> 
> The PMO suffers Trump Derangement Syndrome and is riven with Islamists, including at least one MP who marches to Tehran’s orders. Much like the CBC._


Yeppers.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Cripes almighty he’s a Drag Queen Too…

Is there anything our substitute drama teacher hasn't dressed as?

And, _and_, check out that righteous tat on that bulging <snort> shoulder... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## eMacMan

Not sure where we were discussing this one. The outcome is right but way too long in arriving.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/crim...udge/wcm/c76c0057-d9b5-42e9-b296-38ebcccf143b


> Okotoks rancher Eddie Maurice’s legal woes are finally over.
> 
> Next stop, Disneyland.
> 
> A smiling Maurice, along with his wife, Jessica, appeared at a hastily called news conference at his lawyer’s office Thursday after the trespasser who sued him conceded his lawsuit had no merit.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

A billion and a half bucks of my taxpayer $$$/year, and this is what I get for it?

Only 0.8% of Canadians tuned into CBC news in 2019 while ad revenue plummeted



> The CBC reported another abysmal year in viewership and profitability in 2019 according to Blacklock’s Reporter.
> 
> The national broadcaster’s annual report shows that ad revenues for their English language TV programs fell by 37% over the previous year. In 2018, the CBC reported a total of $178 million in ad revenues, whereas in 2019 they only generated $112.5 million.
> 
> CBC’s share of the market also fell to a meager 5% down from 8% in 2018. The total audience tuning into local evening CBC TV newscasts was only 319,000 Canadians across the country, or approximately 0.8% of Canada’s population.


Related:

CBC report acknowledges 94.7% of Canadians don’t watch their news or entertainment



> Of course they’ll plead poverty and the Liberal Party will dump a few truckloads of your cash on them.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> A billion and a half bucks of my taxpayer $$$/year, and this is what I get for it?
> 
> Only 0.8% of Canadians tuned into CBC news in 2019 while ad revenue plummeted
> 
> 
> 
> Related:
> 
> CBC report acknowledges 94.7% of Canadians don’t watch their news or entertainment


There's only one CBC show I watch and, even then, not regularly and just on youtube. CBC is a relic that should be wound down and given a museum exhibit somewhere, along with the concept of "Canadian Content" programs in general.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Excuuuuuse me? 

Canada offers $25K to families of Canadian victims on Flight PS752



> Canada will give the families of individuals killed in the downing of UIA Flight PS752 thousands of dollars to help with their immediate needs, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said today — stressing it’s only a first step toward getting Iran to compensate those grieving families.


I'm sorry. Aside from the occasional convicted terrorist, has anybody else rec'd a cheque from Prinz Dummkopf?

My tax $$$ at work... XX)

Related:

Justin Trudeau’s disgraceful new low: chiming in with Iran’s propaganda



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he’s “angry” that 57 of his citizens died after Iranian missiles hit that civilian plane. But he’s not directing his outrage at those who fired it — instead, he’s suggesting President Trump is at fault.
> 
> “If there were no tensions, if there was no escalation recently in the region, those Canadians would be right now home with their families,” Trudeau said Monday — as if that were the real cause.


----------



## Beej

'Ashamed, embarrassed': Burnaby woman says she was paid $150 to support Meng Wanzhou outside court
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/01/21/burnaby-woman-paid-support-meng-wanzhou/


> Once outside B.C. Supreme Court in downtown Vancouver, she joined up with the person who recruited her, along with other people paid to hold signs supporting Meng, Huawei’s chief financial officer, who is currently facing possible extradition to the U.S. on fraud charges.


Good for her for coming forward about it. 

Related: Rebel News found that one of the protestors was an aspiring actress who had not previously shown interest in the Meng case.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY7BjZKP640[/ame]


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> 'Ashamed, embarrassed': Burnaby woman says she was paid $150 to support Meng Wanzhou outside court


Is the judiciary in this country so spineless that they can be swayed by a handful of yelling people carrying placards?

Fire. Them. All.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Is the judiciary in this country so spineless that they can be swayed by a handful of yelling people carrying placards?
> 
> Fire. Them. All.


I think they would more likely be swayed by greased palms, or in the lower courts promise of promotion.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> I think they would more likely be swayed by greased palms, or in the lower courts promise of promotion.


Then I have to ask the question: Why would anybody hire protestors to support Meng Wanzhou?


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Then I have to ask the question: Why would anybody hire protestors to support Meng Wanzhou?



I never discount the possibility that they were intended to be caught, thereby making Meng look bad. Other than that who knows?

Whether antifa or whatever else Soros lays his purse on, I dislike the entire practice of hiring protestors and make no mistake about 90% of the time it is Soros bucks behind those paid protests.


----------



## eMacMan

https://news.yahoo.com/huawei-cfo-lawyers-her-alleged-204222966.html



> VANCOUVER, British Columbia (AP) — Lawyers for a senior executive of Chinese tech giant Huawei argued Tuesday that allowing her extradition to the United States would result in Canada bowing to foreign law.
> 
> This week's hearings deal with the question of whether the U.S. charges against Meng Wanzhou are crimes in Canada as well. Her lawyers argue the case is really about U.S. sanctions against Iran, not a fraud case. Canada does not have similar sanctions on Iran.
> 
> *“Canada doesn’t enforce foreign criminal law," said Meng's lawyer, Eric Gottardi. "We simply cannot import that law and have it operate in Canada domestically. It’s contrary to our values.”*


That did not keep the Harpoon from enacting the FATCA-IGA. To make it even more treasonous he made it effective on Canada Day. Since the TrueDope failed to overturn that one, I consider it unlikely he would worry about enforcing foreign criminal laws in this case.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Captain Stumble should split his time being a greeter for international flights at both Pearson & Vancouver International...

Tom Cotton Urges Trump Administration to Consider Banning Travel from China over Coronavirus



> Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) is urging President Donald Trump’s administration to consider implementing a ban on travelers from China to the United States over the Chinese Communist Party’s mishandling of the coronavirus outbreak that has left more than a dozen people dead.


Related:

Chinese city stops outbound flights, trains to fight virus



> Chinese state media say the city of Wuhan is shutting down outbound flights and trains as the country battles the spread of a new virus that has sickened hundreds and killed 17.
> 
> The official Xinhua News Agency said Thursday that the city also asked people not to leave Wuhan without specific reasons.
> 
> The state-owned People’s Daily newspaper said in a tweet that no one would be allowed to leave the city starting at 10 a.m. and that train stations and the airport will shut down. It said that city buses, subways, ferries and long-distance shuttle buses would also be temporarily closed, citing Wuhan authorities.


----------



## SINC

Stupidity rules when even a photo op goes wrong. 

*Justin Trudeau finds himself deep in doughnut drama after photo takes off online*

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/poli...PIjTw159i_nvM823ljScjSTUniKhEx2CyYrmPHZvOWZBc


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Stupidity rules when even a photo op goes wrong.
> 
> *Justin Trudeau finds himself deep in doughnut drama after photo takes off online*
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/poli...PIjTw159i_nvM823ljScjSTUniKhEx2CyYrmPHZvOWZBc


 As little use as I have for Just A Truedough, this comes across as being a yeastless uprising. There are a ton of things for which we can slam the Prime Idiot. No need to resort to wholly unjustinfied snack attacks.

That said I am sure that doughnuts can jelly the brain, and this might explain the rising volume of half baked statements from the PMs office, most of which are full of holes.


----------



## Macfury

I find this "controversy" ridiculous as well. It's a local shop and I appreciate his decision to buy the baked goods there as a spur-of-the-moment gesture of goodwill.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I find this "controversy" ridiculous as well. It's a local shop and I appreciate his decision to buy the baked goods there as a spur-of-the-moment gesture of goodwill.


That too!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

It’s Probably Nothing



> Flashback: Bio-warfare experts question why Canada was sending lethal viruses to China
> 
> In a table-top pandemic exercise at Johns Hopkins University last year, a pathogen based on the emerging Nipah virus was released by fictional extremists, killing 150 million people.
> 
> A less apocalyptic scenario mapped out by a blue-ribbon U.S. panel envisioned Nipah being dispersed by terrorists and claiming over 6,000 American lives.
> 
> Scientists from Canada’s National Microbiology Laboratory (NML) have also said the highly lethal bug is a potential bio-weapon.
> 
> But *this March that same lab shipped samples of the henipavirus family and of Ebola to China*, which has long been suspected of running a secretive biological warfare (BW) program.​
> No way on earth this could be related: _The World Health Organization says it will decide on Thursday whether to declare a global emergency over the outbreak of a new flu-like virus spreading from China._
> 
> Update.
> 
> BREAKING: Chinese officials say a 4th city, Xianning with a population of 2.5 million, will be put on lockdown to prevent the spread of coronavirus
> 
> — BNO News (@BNONews) January 23, 2020​


Links' bold.


----------



## SINC

As the worm turns:

*REPORT: Pierre Poilievre Won’t Run For Conservative Leader*

https://www.spencerfernando.com/202...MIbT5H9UwGP1aUbR_F0dlYNivprYexKWFsg0GxKmMj-8E


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> As the worm turns:
> 
> *REPORT: Pierre Poilievre Won’t Run For Conservative Leader*
> 
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/202...MIbT5H9UwGP1aUbR_F0dlYNivprYexKWFsg0GxKmMj-8E


Does any successful Conservative want the job, aside from MacKay? It's tough to find a single person for the Alberta-Saskatchewan base and suburban Ontario, but the other parties have similar challenges and manage to muddle through.


----------



## eMacMan

I am sure the Liebarrels, Conmen and NDPee will all look at this and think Canada too should be doing this.

https://www.seattlepi.com/news/medi...SARS-experience-help-China-close-15000608.php

Remember this is a minor outbreak of the common cold with a handful of cases that progressed to pneumonia.


----------



## SINC

Once again, the stupidity rises to the top.

*Murderers getting new trials because Trudeau meddled*



> A convicted killer has had his verdict overturned and a new trial ordered on what amounts to a technicality in how a new law was interpreted by the trial judge.
> 
> The scary part is, this isn’t the only case that this ruling may overturn — there are dozens of cases that could see legitimate verdicts thrown out.
> 
> And it’s all because the Trudeau government decided to mess with centuries of legal practice.
> 
> Pardeep Chouhan was convicted last October on first-degree murder charges.
> 
> According to evidence heard at trial by both judge and jury, Chouhan shot Maninder Sandhu multiple times in the yard of the trucking company they both worked at in Toronto.
> 
> Chouhan fled town after leaving Maninder for dead, and was arrested in Surrey, British Columbia a week later.
> 
> His retrial isn’t being ordered because of unreliable evidence or witnesses, but due to a change in how juries are selected.
> 
> In February 2018, a jury in Saskatchewan acquitted farmer Gerald Stanley in the death of Colten Boushie.
> 
> The 22 year-old Indigenous man had driven onto Stanley’s land after a day full of drinking.
> 
> Boushie and his friends were acting erratically.
> 
> They crashed into one of the Stanley vehicles, one of the group tried to start and presumably steal an ATV on the property and Boushie himself had a rifle with him.
> 
> Stanley shot and killed Boushie and was acquitted, but the acquittal was denounced by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and then-Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould because they felt the jury was ‘too white.’
> 
> The pair promised to change the way juries were selected and abolish what were known as peremptory challenges — the ability to dismiss any prospective juror without having to give a reason.
> 
> This foolish change to a centuries-old practice of selecting jurors came into force on September 19, 2019, the same day Chouhan’s murder trial started.
> 
> The changes to the law were challenged by Chouhan’s lawyer as violating his client’s Charter right to a fair trial.
> 
> The presiding judge ruled the change in the law was not a Charter violation and proceeded with the case.
> 
> Yet now the Ontario Court of Appeal has ruled that the presiding judge violated Chouhan’s Charter right to a fair trial by applying the new law incorrectly.
> 
> In a unanimous ruling, the court said Chouhan should have been allowed to have a jury selection process that included peremptory challenges.


https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...HUEQf5ILde5uq5qEEKxNf5n9JSqFJIDlhB9EZuwf4Gn-4


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

But ith's OK! Juthdin hath thigns up at the airports... XX)

As many as six people in Canada being monitored over possible coronavirus signs, health minister says



> Federal Health Minister Patty Hajdu says several people in Canada are under observation for signs they may have contracted a coronavirus from China, but that the risk to Canadians remains low.
> 
> Hajdu said five or six people are being monitored in Canada, including at least one in Vancouver and another Quebec.


Related:

CDC admits 'rapidly changing situation,' possible virus cases being monitored in 22 states



> A regional virus outbreak in China has morphed into a global scare that now threatens countries all across the world. Cases in America have skyrocketed, with 22 states now being monitored by the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> The CDC is watching a total of 63 potential instances of the Wuhan virus across the nearly two dozen states, CNBC reports.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> But ith's OK! Juthdin hath thigns up at the airports... XX)
> 
> As many as six people in Canada being monitored over possible coronavirus signs, health minister says
> 
> 
> 
> Related:
> 
> CDC admits 'rapidly changing situation,' possible virus cases being monitored in 22 states


You do realize we are talking about the common cold. Wonder what vaccine the fearmongers will be pimping this time? Will it be for the Corona Virus mutation which was patented by Bill gates???


----------



## SINC

The population of Canada 2019 was 37.59 M

The population of Quebec 2019 was 8.485 M

Quebec as a percentage of Canada population is 22.6%

Quebec received 52% of all equalization payments in the past 40 years.

Real fair, isn't it?


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> The population of Canada 2019 was 37.59 M
> 
> The population of Quebec 2019 was 8.485 M
> 
> Quebec as a percentage of Canada population is 22.6%
> 
> Quebec received 52% of all equalization payments in the past 40 years.
> 
> Real fair, isn't it?


Using that pie chart with population data, I get the following for population and equalization share.

Newfoundland 1.5%, 5% 
Nova Scotia 2.6%, 11%
PEI 0.4%, 2%
New Brunswick 2.1%, 11% 
Quebec 23.2%, 52%
Manitoba 3.6%, 12%

Which is the fairest of them all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Which is the fairest of them all?


Why, Juthdin ith, you thilly... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

Beej said:


> Using that pie chart with population data, I get the following for population and equalization share.
> 
> Newfoundland 1.5%, 5%
> Nova Scotia 2.6%, 11%
> PEI 0.4%, 2%
> New Brunswick 2.1%, 11%
> Quebec 23.2%, 52%
> Manitoba 3.6%, 12%
> 
> Which is the fairest of them all?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population


I too saw that wiki story and noticed it was dated 2016, so rejected it and used 2019 stats to make my calculation.


----------



## SINC

Only in Ottawa!

*SNC-Lavalin given $1.6 billion contract in Ottawa despite failing tests*



> The controversial Quebec-based corporation SNC-Lavalin was awarded a $1.6 billion contract for Ottawa’s LRT train line project despite there being a unanimous consensus amongst auditors that the corporation should not be chosen for the project, according to CBC News.
> 
> SNC-Lavalin’s proposal reportedly failed to include necessary features, such as a signalling, train control system, and had no plan for snow removal. As well as this, SNC-Lavalin believed that the trains were run through electricity, not diesel.
> 
> The report on SNC-Lavalin’s bid also stated their displeasure with the corporation failed to provide a plan for Ottawa’s existing train lines. The other corporations who were in competition with SNC-Lavalin managed address this.
> 
> The auditing team stated starkly that SNC-Lavalin’s plan “failed all four technical categories.”


More at the link.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/s...ion-contract-in-ottawa-despite-failing-tests/


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> I too saw that wiki story and noticed it was dated 2016, so rejected it and used 2019 stats to make my calculation.


Population shares don't change much in three years. If the point is that Quebec gets a disproportionate share of equalization, all the other recipients look even worse. I don't have the data on Saskatchewan, which used to get equalization, but maybe their population share-to-equalization share would be closer to 1:1.


----------



## SINC

Beej said:


> Population shares don't change much in three years. If the point is that Quebec gets a disproportionate share of equalization, all the other recipients look even worse. I don't have the data on Saskatchewan, which used to get equalization, but maybe their population share-to-equalization share would be closer to 1:1.


Yeah, that was my point.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Related to SINC's post #24642 above.

Canada slips out of list of world's ten least-corrupt countries after SNC-Lavalin scandal



> Canada slid to its lowest level in at least a decade on a global index of corruption, driven down by the SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. scandal, a new report shows.
> 
> The country was ranked 12th of 180 countries on Berlin-based Transparency International’s 2019 Corruption Perceptions Index, an annual worldwide list from least corrupt country to worst issued Thursday.


----------



## FeXL

Convicted multi-millionaire war criminal...



> ...to speak at Canadian university...
> 
> _Omar Khadr, the former *"child soldier"* whose war crimes convictions made him a political lightning rod for both Conservative and Liberal governments, is scheduled to be a keynote speaker at a Dalhousie University event next month.​_


More:



> _"Imagine if you will: *teenaged white kids are caught up in some skinhead group.* Their parents are neo-nazis as well. Dad and the boys head out to Zimbabwe to fight Mugabe. Dad is killed, and the boyos are wounded and captured."
> 
> "How many Toronto Star editorials would be written to *get the kids back to Canada?*"​_


Knocks it out of the park.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Shocka...

Illegal cannabis prices fall as legal market expands



> The gap between what Canadians pay for legal and illicit cannabis is widening — a sign experts say points to the need for the marijuana industry to make prices a priority this year.
> 
> Statistics Canada said Thursday that the average price of legal cannabis increased to $10.30 per gram in the period between October and December 2019 from $9.69 per gram the year before.
> 
> The change came as the average price of illegal cannabis fell to $5.73 per gram in that fourth quarter from $6.44 per gram a year earlier and as the overall average price of cannabis rose to $7.50 per gram, an increase from $7.46 per gram a year earlier.


Who knew?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Beej

A strange story.

Chrystia Freeland's taxpayer-funded limo goes with her, even when she flies
https://www.rebelnews.com/chrystia-freeland-taxpayer-funded-empty-limo-travels-when-she-flies



> For example, on June 12 2017, Freeland’s limo log shows a 495 km trip . However, on June 12 2017, Freeland’s flight records indicate that she flew to Montreal to participate in the 2017 Conference of Montreal. It’s a roughly four hundred kilometer round trip in a car - Ottawa to Montreal and back. This means Freeland’s chauffeur driven car drove to Montreal without her, only to drive her around while she was there, just to drive back without her, while she flew both ways.


The video covers multiple examples such as the one above, with some documentation provided at the link. Now it's time to hear Freeland's explanation for this alleged waste.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*



Beej said:


> Now it's time to hear Freeland's explanation for this alleged waste.


You silly, she's the Purple Perogie! Reason enough!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The Libranos: You’re On Candid Camera!

Ezra's got a lot more patience than I do. If the bastards wouldn't cite directly the accusation & the accuser, I'd have told them to get stuffed.

Comments salient.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> The Libranos: You’re On Candid Camera!
> 
> Ezra's got a lot more patience than I do. If the bastards wouldn't cite directly the accusation & the accuser, I'd have told them to get stuffed.
> 
> Comments salient.


I was looking into this earlier today. The issue looks very similar to Citizen's United from the U.S. On the face of it, it's absurd. Of course an individual should be allowed to publish a book critical of a politician and during an election. But can a corporation? Could SNC Lavalin blanket the country with movies, TV shows, and books, attacking a political party during an election? Likely not under our laws. I'm not sure where this will end up.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*



Beej said:


> I was looking into this earlier today. The issue looks very similar to Citizen's United from the U.S. On the face of it, it's absurd. Of course an individual should be allowed to publish a book critical of a politician and during an election. But can a corporation? Could SNC Lavalin blanket the country with movies, TV shows, and books, attacking a political party during an election? Likely not under our laws. I'm not sure where this will end up.


As Ezra noted, there were a number of books praising the Prime Moron published about the same time, yet, according to the two goons, there doesn't appear to be any intent to _interview_ <snort> any of those authors.

As far as SNC Lavalin is concerned, hell, they could do precisely that & a Lieberal word of criticism would never be levelled.

I think Ezra's saving grace is he recorded the so-called _interview._ One other thing I found funny is that the one goon kept on noting that they all were "just having a conversation". Riiiiight.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

But ith's hokay. Juthdin hath more thigns up at the airporths.

UN agency declares global emergency over virus from China



> The World Health Organization declared the outbreak sparked by a new virus in China that has spread to more than a dozen countries as a global emergency Thursday after the number of cases spiked more than tenfold in a week.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside.


Passenger from China with nose ‘running like Niagara Falls’ questions Canada’s coronavirus screening at airports



> A man who said he developed what felt like “a nasty cold with a cough and runny nose” while on a flight from Hong Kong to Toronto is questioning whether there are adequate safeguards to prevent the spread of the new coronavirus in Canada.
> 
> Massie Beveridge, a retired general surgeon, said he was “waved” through Pearson International Airport even after reporting his symptoms to a border services agent.


But there were thigns! Thigns, I tell you!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Whew. Dodged a bullet there...

The ‘Yoga Summit’ that never was: Trudeau and Modi planned to stretch together in India



> In a trip that was both dominated and damned for its photo ops, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s 2018 week in India was to have included what almost certainly would have been the mother of them all.
> 
> Documents recently released to Global News through a federal Access to Information Act request show that Canadian government officials had arranged for Trudeau, his wife Sophie, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland, Indian Prime Minister Nahendra Modi, “Bollywood celebrities”, and others to participate in an hour-long dawn yoga session — in front of television news cameras — at Humayan’s Tomb in Delhi, a 16th century site that is one of India’s most important cultural treasures.


On the other hand, it would have been interesting to see if Modi could have cured the Prime Moron of his propensity for cranio-rectal inversion... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

'Cauth in excess of $2 billion/year doesn't purchase nearly enough brand loyalty...

Trudeau government wants to empower CBC to police journalists



> The Trudeau government isn’t satisfied to simply spend $600 million dollars to pay off the entire media establishment in Canada, they want to monitor your news and use the CBC to *“ensure quality in news coverage.”*
> 
> Yesterday an advisory panel released a report entitled, “Canada’s Communications Future: Time To Act”, citing” a “crisis in news.” It recommends all media content services fall under the Act and regulation by the Canadian Radio Television and Telecommunications Commission.”


Bold mine.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

But ith's hokay. Juthdin admires their bathic dictatorthip...

WHY THE WEST IS WARY OF HUAWEI



> China is the major donor of financial aid to African countries therefore it was no surprise when in 2006, Beijing pledged $200m to build the headquarters of The African Union in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
> 
> Completed in 2012, everything was custom-built by the Chinese – including a state-of-the-art computer system. For several years, the building stood as a proud testament to ever-closer ties between China and Africa. Trade has rocketed over the past two decades, growing by about 20% a year, according to international consultancy McKinsey. China is Africa’s largest economic partner.
> 
> But in January 2018, French newspaper Le Monde Afrique dropped a bombshell. It reported that the AU’s computer system had been compromised. The newspaper, citing multiple sources, said that for five years, between the hours of midnight and 0200, data from the AU’s servers was transferred more than 8,000km away – to servers in Shanghai. This had allegedly continued for 1,825 days in a row.
> 
> Le Monde Afrique reported that it had come to light in 2017, when a conscientious scientist working for the AU recorded an unusually high amount of computer activity on its servers during hours when the offices would have been deserted. It was also reported that microphones and listening devices had been discovered in the walls and desks of the building, following a sweep for bugs.


Everybody save Prinz Dummkopf...


----------



## FeXL

I post this not because I care about the Conservative leadership contest (I don't), but because I find the questionnaire hilarious. :lmao:

How the Conservatives’ Leadership Contestant Questionnaire could derail Richard Décarie


----------



## SINC

Bleeding heart Progs in the Canadian justice system succeed in killing another innocent woman by paroling a lifer in Quebec.

Federal investigation launched after convicted murderer on day parole charged in death of Quebec woman

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...F-Xk5kg_8RDVDEZmfHyPHzaRC9LqmPuiH59RYgE2M33Qw


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Federal investigation launched after convicted murderer on day parole charged in death of Quebec woman


Of course! She was from Kaybeck. If she had been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill Albertan no way in hell Gonzo would have convened a Federal investigation.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

'Thokay! We got thigns!!!

It’s Probably Nothing



> Western researchers knew coronaviruses were present in Chinese bats in 2015. Wuhan’researchers’were included in this study that tested monoclonal antibodies from Ebola strains that had no effect on curing the mutant coronavirus. #coronaviruschina #outbreak https://t.co/5j2m1m2IZf
> 
> — 😷Kyle Bass😷 (@Jkylebass) January 31, 2020​
> Thread.
> 
> Delta and American Airlines have suspended all flights to China.
> 
> “Based on the U.S. Department of State’s recent increase of the China Travel Advisory to a Level 4 (Do Not Travel), American is suspending its operations to and from the Chinese mainland beginning today through March 27,” a spokesperson for American told Gizmodo via email.​
> A roundup of developments on Coronavirus at Instapundit.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Rex offers his opinion.

Ezra Levant wrote a book critical of the Liberals. Now he's being investigated

Rex asks:



> Can anybody give the name of any other book, ever, which has been the subject of an investigation by the Commissioner of Canada Elections?


Nope.

More:



> To keep things in perspective here “The Libranos: What the media won’t tell you about Justin Trudeau’s corruption” is not “The Gulag Archipelago,” and Mr. Levant is not Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and only in a mock-heroic, absurd world would the office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections provoke an association with the defunct KGB.


----------



## SINC

An excellent read with an even better question. 

Canada imports more emissions than exports, so why are we the ones paying carbon taxes?

https://business.financialpost.com/...ts-so-why-are-we-the-ones-paying-carbon-taxes


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*



SINC said:


> Canada imports more emissions than exports, so why are we the ones paying carbon taxes?


Becauth we're the planet's firth poth nathional nathion, thilly!


----------



## FUXL

Here's one for the Ezra (Irre)Levant followers. We're on to your hate speech dinkus maximuses.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...ake-award-unleashes-tirade-against-minorities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=377&v=eRIdtMlqwNA&feature=emb_logo


----------



## Macfury

Why are you writing about some woman who lives in the UK? Methinks you're overreaching to compensate for the size of your "dinkus".




FUXL said:


> Here's one for the Ezra (Irre)Levant followers. We're on to your hate speech dinkus maximuses.


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> Why are you writing about some woman who lives in the UK? Methinks you're overreaching to compensate for the size of your "dinkus".


Read the article you illiterate boob.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Methinks you're overreaching to compensate for the size of your "dinkus".


I'd be surprised to find that the Asshole even had one in the first place.

After all, while being a Prog driving a Priapus and claiming to own a Tesla, that's already 3 strikes against...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

But, the thigns! I'm telling you, THE THIGNS!!!

It’s Probably Nothing



> The county’s in the very best of hands.
> 
> We asked @ZannLenore what we can expect from the government now that the W.H.O. has declared a global health emergency.
> 
> "I'm telling you that they don't know yet. We're working on it right now," Zann said.#ctvpp #cdnpoli
> 
> More at https://t.co/uCQmGSHoEL. pic.twitter.com/81VW2R9lC3
> 
> — CTV Power Play (@CTV_PowerPlay) January 30, 2020​


----------



## Macfury

Admit it, "mini-dinkus"--you flubbed again!!




FUXL said:


> Read the article you illiterate boob.


----------



## Beej

Licensing for media companies in Canada would likely be proportionate:Heritage minister
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/lic...ate-heritage-minister-1.4792838?autoPlay=true

First off, the Heritage Minister seems way out of his depth here. Poorly prepared, not very sharp. So maybe nothing he said is relevant because he didn't read or understand his briefing notes.

Second, skip to 7:20 in the video for the kinds of things on table. How do they plan on regulating Brietbart and the New York Times? Maybe a special Canadian website shows up, and we lose access to the real thing, like with Netflix. Diversity is our strength, but not in the news.

But maybe we can force Netflix to fund a few new seasons of Corner Gas to protect our heritage. :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> But maybe we can force Netflix to fund a few new seasons of Corner Gas to protect our heritage. :lmao:


SINC would like that!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further on the state broadcaster filtering all news.

Inching Closer to a Totalitarian Dictatorship



> Throughout history, what is one of the key modus operandi of totalitarian regimes? They clamp down upon and eventually eliminate all dissent.
> 
> Why then is the Liberal Government of Canada taking the very illiberal actions of propping up the State Broadcaster and clamping down on what all media outlets can say? Canadians should be outraged by this but the numb minds of the NPCs which currently make up the majority of the Canadian electorate seem entirely fine with it.
> 
> When Mark Steyn and Maclean’s magazine went through their ordeal with the BC Human Rights Tribunal in 2008, it became clear through countless conversations that many Canadians felt “the government officials will make the right decision about what can and can’t be said”. When asked, “who are these people to make such decisions?”, there was absolute silence. Sadly, such silence will likely be the case once again.


----------



## eMacMan

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...s-unconstitutional-civil-liberties-group-says

This is just idiotic, so it's no surprise that the Truedope, laid the foundation for it.

That said, I have been through a handful of checkstops over the past 20 years. It has never taken the officer more than 15 seconds to determine I am indeed sober and alert, and wave me through.

I am willing to bet that any supporters would be hard pressed to point to a single instance of a drunk being pulled over, the officer failing to see he is drunk and letting him go on his way, only to kill or maim someone else a few minutes later. Believe me if it had happened the instigators of this assault on civil liberties would be trumpeting it from the top of the Calgary Tower.

In fact this policy is a direct insult to Calgary police officers. It implies those police officers are so dumb, that they consistently fail to detect impaired drivers at traffic or check stops. 

Moreover if they are that stupid and that poorly trained how on earth can they be expected to detect drivers impaired by Cannabis or prescription meds?

Something tells me that someone with a lot of political clout has a big investment in a company that provides those breath samplers. Wonder if that also applies to the Truedope?


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further:

The Chibranos: Holy Blink Rate, Batman!



> Look! There’s a deer in the headlights!
> 
> A panel commissioned by @JustinTrudeau has recommended that news websites ad podcasters in Canada be required to get a government licence. Unbelievably Trudeau’s Heritage Minister @s_guilbeault agrees with the idea. So much for a free and open media.
> pic.twitter.com/azwC8sDg55
> 
> — Brian Lilley (@brianlilley) February 2, 2020​
> This just in…
> 
> “Media can be confusing”. Rattled Heritage Minister @s_guilbeault walks it back. Now suggests @CRTCeng will not license media but answers few questions. #cdnpoli pic.twitter.com/1204RLAzcP
> 
> — Holly Doan (@hollyanndoan) February 3, 2020​
> Update: Post Millennial has more;
> 
> Guilbeault walked back the comments on Monday, stating that the government had “no intention to impose licensing requirements on news organizations,” nor will the government “regulate news content.”
> 
> “… Our focus will be and always has been that Canadians have diversity to high-quality news sources,” said Guilbeault to reporters in Ottawa.
> 
> This announcement comes after deep criticism of a previous announcement by the Liberal government, where they said they would force news organizations to apply for a licence.
> 
> Guilbeault’s announcement faced intense scrutiny from across the political spectrum with some commentators suggesting that it would be a dangerous attack on the freedom of the press.​
> Gong show update.
> 
> I've seen this 5 times and I still can't tell if Trudeau is going to force me to get a license.
> "On the issue of discoverability media organizations would need to have a licence but that would not – and media can be confusing I recognize that."
> What are you tripping on, Minister? pic.twitter.com/qhovk5dhYS
> 
> — Keean Brexite 🇬🇧 (@TheRealKeean) February 3, 2020​


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> The Department of Finance yesterday *acknowledged taxpayers will see cost over-runs on the Trans Mountain Pipeline*. “Costs tend to go up over time,” Associate Assistant Deputy Finance Minister Evelyn Dancey told the Commons finance committee. “I would not be surprised if that’s the direction based on the delays and so on.”


Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Marijuana... the Victimless Crime



> _Durham Regional Police are *searching for two armed suspects* after a legal marijuana store, the Tokyo Smoke store on Laval Drive in Oshawa was robbed at gunpoint on Saturday night at around 10:30 p.m.
> 
> The suspects are described as *males with dark complexions*, between six feet and six feet two inches tall._​


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Wasn't The Bigot just mewling about this in the AP Thread? You'd think that if someone was seriously interested in veterans' plight and not merely spouting off progressive platitudes, he would have talked about this here...

Veterans never saw the $105 million promised to them by Trudeau in 2019



> Veterans did not see a penny of the $105 million promised to them by Justin Trudeau last year.
> 
> The sum remained untouched, despite being earmarked for Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC).
> 
> Since 2018, the Liberal government has failed to deliver on $327 million worth of funds promised to help veterans, according to Global News.
> 
> Trudeau has shut down veterans’ calls for more funding in the past and has fought veterans in court.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Same story regarding corporate welfare.

To Trudeau, MasterCard's CEO is the middle class



> When Justin Trudeau was first asked about his government’s decision to give MasterCard $50 million in corporate welfare this week, his immediate response was to invoke the middle class.
> 
> “Over the past five years, we have been focused on growing the middle class and supporting those working hard to join it. That is exactly what we have done,” Trudeau said.
> 
> If you have a hard time figuring out how handing a company that made $16 billion last year is helping the middle class, you’re not alone. Then again, we know the Trudeau government has a great deal of trouble defining the middle class.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

But it's OK! These are all refugees from war-torn countries that Trump, and only Trump, has bombed to smithereens with all the billions of &&& he's spent on the military.

That Canadian border crisis? Yup, it's still happening



> Canada’s crisis of illegal immigration has reached new heights, and yet, you wouldn’t know about it from watching the evening news, listening to the radio or reading most newspapers in Canada.
> 
> News reports on illegal border crossers and dubious asylum claimants have all but disappeared in the media, despite new record-breaking numbers.
> 
> What was once a border crisis is now the new normal in Canada.
> 
> Last year was the worst year on record for asylum claims. In 2019, Canada received 63,830 asylum applications from people who entered the country illegally or under false pretenses.
> 
> This represents a 16% jump from 2018 when 55,040 claims were filed, and 27% more than in 2017 when Canada received 50,390 refugee applications.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The thigns! <cough, cough> I'm telling you, the thi<cough>gns...

It’s Probably Nothing



> TOTALLY JUST THE FLU NOTHING TO SEE HERE #coronavirus pic.twitter.com/ungxl1yDbC
> 
> — Steve Warner ✘ (@darkcityfm) February 4, 2020​
> Related: *Did China’s Tencent Accidentally Leak The True Terrifying Coronavirus Statistics*


Bold mine.

Lessee, where is it? I read it earlier... Ha!



> If you are dumb enough to believe anything the Chinese government says, then there’s no hope for you.


Related:

4 Feb 2019-nCoV Corona Virus Outbreak



> Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.


Good advice.

Related, too:

Is Coronavirus Already a Pandemic?



> But covered up by the corrupt communist tyrants of the Chinese government?
> 
> Experts believe the highly transmissible coronavirus will become a pandemic as infected numbers continue to increase in China and countries around the world, according to a startling report.
> 
> A pandemic is described as a disease that spreads across a large region, across continents and even the entire globe. The coronavirus is reportedly spreading at a similar pace to influenza compared to the slow-moving SARS and MERS, according to the New York Times.
> 
> "It's very, very transmissible, and it almost certainly is going to be a pandemic," Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, told the paper.​
> Unbelievably, the Sydney Morning Herald -- a major national newspaper in Australia, which could easily become the next area afflicted with the pandemic -- opines that the real scary thing about the coronavirus isn't the coronvirus, it's all the racism- and xenophobia- based _fear_ of coronavirus.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

From that basic dictatorship that Blackie admires so much!

China praises Canada, slams U.S. over coronavirus response



> Canada was praised for not following the U.S.’ example of enacting a travel ban in light of the coronavirus outbreak by a spokesperson for China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs on Monday.
> 
> Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying took questions during an online press conference from international media in regards to the coronavirus and rebuked the U.S.’s response to the outbreak, claiming they had “overreacted,” according to the translated transcript.
> 
> “Most countries appreciate and support China's efforts to fight against the novel coronavirus, and we understand and respect them when they adopt or enhance quarantine measures at border entry,” Hua said. “But in the meantime, some countries, the U.S. in particular, have inappropriately overreacted.”


Prinz Dummkopf just sprung himself a woodie...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The renewed effort to get Bill C-16 modified or repealed



> Back in 2017, Bill C-16 was enacted into law, adding the terms “gender identity” and “gender expression” to the Canadian Human Rights Act and Criminal Code.
> 
> But even years later, there are many women who are fighting to get this bill modified or repealed on the basis that it nullifies female-designated spaces: any biological male who self-identifies as a woman becomes entitled to enter female changing rooms, washrooms, prisons, and shelters.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The military gets it.

Canadian military bars any member travel to China, citing coronavirus risk



> Members of the Canadian military are now barred from any travel to China as public health officials continue to grapple with a new coronavirus spreading from the country, which has sickened more than 17,000 people over the past month.
> 
> In a general order issued to Canadian Forces (CAF) members on Monday, the military says Chief of Defence Staff Jonathan Vance views any travel as a risk to the military’s readiness capabilities.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

But ith's hokay! Ith's not fer guns or veterans or homeless or... Oh, wait.

Trudeau leads the pack when it comes to raising debt: Fraser Institute



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Liberals have racked up more debt than any other Canadian government that didn’t fight a world war or endure a recession during the last 125 years.
> 
> A bulletin issued Tuesday by the Fraser Institute says Trudeau will have increased the per-person federal debt by 5.6% (or $1,723) — from approximately $30,922 in 2015 to $32,645 in 2019 — the highest percentage amount since 1895 outside of World war or economic downturn.
> 
> “As you increase debt, you’re putting upward pressure on interest costs and as you divert more tax dollars to interest costs, that leaves fewer resources for tax relief or government programs,” said Fraser Institute policy analyst Jake Fuss.


Just like the old man...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Justin Trudeau’s job approval plummets while Donald Trump’s reaches record high



> Just over one-quarter of Canadians favour Justin Trudeau’s performance.
> 
> The Nanos Research Mood of Canada poll, conducted alongside the Institute for Research on Public Policy, found only 27% of Canadians view the government as “good” or “somewhat good.”


What shocks me is that one out of every 4 Canucks is stupid enough to think Groper McBlackface is doing a good job. What kind of lows would he have to plumb in order to get criticism from said group?


----------



## FeXL

Well, Juthdin loves a basic dictatorship!

Liberals gave millions in handouts to Huawei over the last decade



> Federal and provincial Liberal governments have been handing Huawei millions in taxpayer dollars since 2010.
> 
> According to a report by the _National Post_, both the federal government and the Ontario government have given major handouts to the Chinese company.
> 
> In 2016, former Ontario premier Kathleen Wynne gave Huawei a $16 million handout to conduct “5G research” in the province. In 2010, the company received $6.5 million from Dalton McGuinty’s Liberal government in what was described as a strategic partnership.


Pardon me for asking, but where is the hue & cry from the left about "corporate welfare"?

Hmmm?


----------



## SINC

Yet another failed Liberal climate change policy.

*First net-zero energy home sits empty as builder struggles to find buyers*



> The general manager of MCL Construction Ltd, says it should be easy for a northern country like Canada to get into the kind of home that is so efficient it makes more energy than it uses.
> 
> Brad McLaughlin is beginning to wonder if reducing residential greenhouse gases is really a priority in this country.
> 
> His certified net-zero home, the first in New Brunswick, has maxed out energy efficiency. The house has insulated concrete walls, triple glazed windows, 44 solar panels and a backup rechargeable battery system.
> 
> On a sub-zero February afternoon it's sending excess electricity back onto the provincial grid in exchange for NB Power credits to be used on the coldest days, or at night when the solar system is asleep.
> 
> 
> But the three-bedroom, two-bath home stubbornly refuses to sell. It has been on and off the real estate market since 2017.


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/fin...pUPL9dTLsjs2fiKUVfMYYJ03YzFcKEgECoyTGWRQz7gA8


----------



## Macfury

> Brad McLaughlin is beginning to wonder if reducing residential greenhouse gases is really a priority in this country.


It is for progs, but they want it for free!

This house also looks like hell for that price. Guess the money was spent on solving "the energy storage problem" that CM often cites:


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> It is for progs, but they want it for free!
> 
> This house also looks like hell for that price. Guess the money was spent on solving "the energy storage problem" that CM often cites:


Don't know about down east but where I live you could have a zero energy home and this is the impact it would have on utility bills: 

Water, sewer and garbage normal: ~$65/Month
Water, sewer and garbage Super House: ~$65/Month

Gas and electric normal: ~$200/Month (winter only), $125 the rest of the year
Electric only Super House: ~$75/Month year round (no natural gas)

English translation: If the mortgage is any more than an extra $100/month you're losing money and as MF says that place does not exactly pull you in.

Other considerations the current super efficient furnaces tend to have short life spans and be expensive to replace, but you can double that for the battery pack on the solar wonder.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Don't know about down east but where I live you could have a zero energy home and this is the impact it would have on utility bills:
> 
> Water, sewer and garbage normal: ~$65/Month
> Water, sewer and garbage Super House: ~$65/Month
> 
> Gas and electric normal: ~$200/Month (winter only), $125 the rest of the year
> Electric only Super House: ~$75/Month year round (no natural gas)
> 
> English translation: If the mortgage is any more than an extra $100/month you're losing money and as MF says that place does not exactly pull you in.
> 
> Other considerations the current super efficient furnaces tend to have short life spans and be expensive to replace, but you can double that for the battery pack on the solar wonder.


Agreed, the economics don't favour the place. 

In jurisdictions where too many homes have "sold" excess energy to the utility, they've been gouged by clawbacks because the utility doesn't really want the extra power. I've seen homeowners forced to register as sellers, charged system access fees, or billed back for infrastructure charges. No guarantees on this revenue stream lasting for the home owner.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> This house also looks like hell for that price.


A thing of beauty!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Up In Smoke



> Continued…
> 
> Aurora Cannabis shares slid about 6% Thursday, after a report that the company is about to announce plans to lay off 10% of its workforce, becoming the latest company in the sector to move to cut costs. Aurora (ACB) , (CA:ACB) the most widely held stock of Canada’s licensed cannabis producers, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the report from BNN Bloomberg that cited a person directly familiar with the matter. “Both companies have a relatively clouded path to profitability right now, very large operational footprints, a history of aggressive investments, and will likely need to raise capital in the near future (in our view),” analysts Owen Bennett and Ryan Tomkins wrote in a note to clients.​


Comments salient.


----------



## eMacMan

Posted on Magliocca before. He is now claiming it was not graft but plain old fashioned incompetence. Seems to me incompetence should be all the reason voters in his riding require to fire his sorry A$$.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...cas-expenses-now-say-they-didnt-dine-with-him



> The number of politicians whose names appear on Coun. Joe Magliocca’s travel expenses from a Quebec City conference but say they didn’t dine with him has climbed to eight, including two listed as having one-on-one meals with him.
> 
> Magliocca publicly apologized this week for the “errors” in his expenses, which were obtained by Postmedia through a freedom of information request. The Ward 2 councillor said he has now paid back about $2,100 in hosting costs he incurred at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities conference last year.





> The councillor, who represents a ward in the far northwest, said Monday he would personally contact the people identified in his expenses to apologize.
> 
> Mori****a said he received one of those phone calls the next day. “He just said he was confused. His excuse was he did not file his expenses in a timely manner and kind of got things mixed up,” he said.





> He added in an email that he didn’t fill out his office expenses until December.
> 
> “I literally meet hundreds of people at these conventions,” he said. “I didn’t write down their names at the time and I tried to recall a month after based on business cards I had from FCM, but clearly I got some names wrong.”


Now back when I was in business for myself I kept an a log of mileage and business related expense, complete with receipts. When I worked for the school board I kept a detailed mileage log. It takes less than a minute to record at the time and is impossible to recreate a month or two down the road. The IRS or Revenue Canada demands this sort of attention to detail as did my supervisors at the school board.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Posted on Magliocca before. He is now claiming it was not graft but plain old fashioned incompetence. Seems to me incompetence should be all the reason voters in his riding require to fire his sorry A$$.


Maybe he was really dull company at those dinners and was forgotten...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Up In Smoke
> 
> 
> 
> Comments salient.


International trade in cannabis is not yet possible. When it is, we'll see megatonnes shipped in from the Caribbean, South America and other places that don't require greenhouses to grow it. Canadian production will be limited to specialty products, sold to those people who don't prefer to get it cheaper form local dealers.


----------



## SINC

Moral of the story: Use more natural gas to curb emissions?

*Posthaste: Global carbon emissions may have peaked in 2019 — and natural gas played a big role in curbing them, says energy watchdog*



> Good Morning!
> 
> Well, this was unexpected. Global carbon dioxide emissions flatlined last year as governments across the world embarked on an ambitious energy transition, according to latest data from the International Energy Agency.
> 
> “After two years of growth, global emissions were unchanged at 33 gigatonnes in 2019 even as the world economy expanded by 2.9 per cent,” the Paris-based energy watchdog declared in press release this morning.
> 
> The agency, which advises mostly oil and gas importing countries on energy issues, attributed the flat growth to the greater role of renewable sources in power generation, fuel switching from coal to natural gas, and higher nuclear power generation. Other factors included milder weather in several countries, and slower economic growth in some emerging markets, the IEA said.


More in The Financial Post.

https://business.financialpost.com/...BQBYGeaFyKLculBvnb8GuLv09o#Echobox=1581428592


----------



## SINC

Turdeau phuks up again!

Trudeau misses deadline for disclosing private interests to ethics commissioner

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/tru...CKQ4S9Y7Te3DfiuIpi_c5yISc776kDwWt7ZuDlCH_gi2E


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Turdeau phuks up again!


~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Turdeau phuks up again!
> 
> Trudeau misses deadline for disclosing private interests to ethics commissioner
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/tru...CKQ4S9Y7Te3DfiuIpi_c5yISc776kDwWt7ZuDlCH_gi2E



I note that my MP John Barlow has chosen to keep the Truedope company.


----------



## SINC

Ah yes, that harmless, now legal weed has its issues it would seem:

Edmonton man who killed his mother during ‘cannabis-induced psychosis’ sentenced

https://globalnews.ca/news/6542672/sentencing-edmonton-man-stabbed-mother-cannabis-psychosis/


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Ah yes, that harmless, now legal weed has its issues it would seem:
> 
> Edmonton man who killed his mother during ‘cannabis-induced psychosis’ sentenced
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6542672/sentencing-edmonton-man-stabbed-mother-cannabis-psychosis/



Don that description sure sounds like there was probably some crystal meth mixed in with the Cannabis. 

Interesting that the story did not include toxicology results from his bloodstream. Not sure if that is bad reporting or bad police work.


----------



## eMacMan

Even a day and a half later there is practically no information in this story.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/man-dies-after-rcmp-fire-shots-in-blairmore-parking-lot



> Around 5 p.m., Mounties from the Blairmore detachment tried to stop a pickup truck in the parking lot of the Home Hardware store in the town 220 kilometres southwest of Calgary.
> 
> “A confrontation occurred which resulted in the discharge of service pistols,” RCMP said in a statement.
> 
> “The vehicle travelled a short distance and then entered a ditch.”
> 
> The man driving the truck was pronounced dead at the scene and no police officers were injured, said RCMP.
> 
> RCMP haven’t said why they tried to stop the man and declined further comment.
> 
> The vehicle was “believed to be associated with an ongoing investigation in the Crowsnest Pass area,” the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team said in a statement issued Wednesday afternoon.


Original story just said the Mounties were responding to a service call. 

I know over the past few months there have been a lot of vehicle thefts in the Crowsnest Pass. It's possible there is a direct correlation.


----------



## eMacMan

Meanwhile looks like Magliocca continues to dig himself an ever deeper hole.
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/c...ould-quit-and-take-integrity-officer-with-him



> Surprise. The latest Joe Magliocca dining guest we learn about was actually at the table.
> 
> Unfortunately, that guest was Calgary’s integrity commissioner, Sal LoVecchio, who now feels he can’t investigate the city councillor’s expenses because Magliocca stuck the city with the tab for $163.
> 
> This has gone from fiasco to farce. Both these guys should resign, immediately.
> 
> Maybe Magliocca was in a generous mood over lunch last July 19.
> 
> A month earlier, he’d been at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities conference in Quebec City, where he’d racked up expenses literally double those of any other councillor, including claims naming people who weren’t with him.


Man that's a great gig Sal has; $2000/month salary, and an extra $200/hour on those rare occasions he does something useful. Wanna bet it cost Calgary taxpayers an extra $200 to have him recuse himself?


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Ah yes, that harmless, now legal weed has its issues it would seem:
> 
> Edmonton man who killed his mother during ‘cannabis-induced psychosis’ sentenced
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6542672/sentencing-edmonton-man-stabbed-mother-cannabis-psychosis/


One interesting paragraph from the Calgary Herald version that did not appear in your referenced article:
https://edmontonjournal.com/news/cr...abis-induced-psychosis-sentenced-to-45-months


> _*“I’ve never ever heard of a case where some sort of cannabis product tripped somebody into psychosis and that resulted in the death of a person, nor could we find any reported case in Canada where that had happened,” said defence attorney Graham Johnson.*_


OTOH There is almost no end to the number of times I have heard about an abusive husband killing his spouse in an alcohol induced rage.

I am going to stick by my earlier theory that the cannabis may have been laced with meth. An easy way to make a non addictive substance addictive. And this would have been prior to legalization. FWIW I still believe a toxicology report should have been part of the evidence and the article.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> OTOH There is almost no end to the number of times I have heard about an abusive husband killing his spouse in an alcohol induced rage.


It's a good point. I have no love of the government regulating cannabis sales, and have no interest in the product itself. But I agree that, while cannabis abuse could be implicated in some crimes and medical costs, it is far less harmful on both counts than alcohol abuse.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

State Of The Nation



> As we enter into our fifth year of rule by Sunny Ways.
> 
> For those outside of Canada, an update:
> our entire rail system remains shut down by Ontario protesters who object to a pipeline deal signed 4000 km away by another band. The PM is in the Caribbean preening for the UN while his high school pal "negotiates"https://t.co/En43VdYNuJ
> 
> — Jonathan Kay (@jonkay) February 16, 2020​


Comments salient:



> james says:
> February 16, 2020 at 12:38 pm
> 
> Let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark. I hope they shut the highways in and out of Ontario and really make them live by their words. You want no oil? Here you go.
> Reply
> 
> 1.
> Joey says:
> February 16, 2020 at 12:45 pm
> 
> We should turn off the taps of all oil and gas heading down to that area. It is the GTA that put that imbecile back into power and it the GTA that should suffer the consequences.
> Reply
> 2.
> ray says:
> February 16, 2020 at 1:15 pm
> 
> Exactly. I’m living deep inside enemy territory myself and folks are losing their collective minds here because no propane, etc.
> This is a great moment for me seeing this. I heat hydro/pellets here on my 100 acre lakefront kingdom. Woodstove in double detached garage. 10 lbs is average size pickerel in my lake, moose & nearest neighbour 4 kms away is native and we barter together. Wife is making yummy bread now, we got crawl space packed w canning and life couldn’t be better. I’ve got no debt, full cash here and gold too. 10 X 45 gallon gas drums, 2 X 5000w gennies, 3 X 100 lbs propanes, etc etc. The 2 700 cc quads are warm in garage. The 2015 GMC Sierra 1500 4X4 rocks.
> I now hate Canada so my $$$ is on Trudeau to implode it. I just need Ab & Sask to leave. The rest will collapse soon after.
> This 27 year army & para guy is laughing hard right now. Prepping is key.
> 
> BRING IT!!!


It is impossible for me to muster a single iota of compassion for these idiots. 

Getting what you voted for, good & hard... :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Cheque's in the mail.

Bombardier reports $1.6B US loss for 2019, sells remaining stakes in A220 program



> Quebec aerospace giant Bombardier reported a $1.6 billion US loss for 2019 on Thursday, shortly after it announced that it’s leaving the commercial aviation business.
> 
> The multinational corporation said late Wednesday that it sold its remaining stake in the A220 program — formerly known as the C Series — to Airbus.
> 
> Bombardier has been re-organizing its business in an effort to pay off a multibillion-dollar deficit. It released its financial results for 2019 on Thursday.
> 
> Under the deal, Airbus now owns a 75 per cent stake in the commercial jet program. The Quebec government, which is not injecting any new money into the program, owns 25 per cent.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

"We're going to grow the economy from the heart."

More likely from the other end...

Canadian Economy Will Be 'Significantly Weaker' Than Expected, Parliament Watchdog Says



> Canada’s budget watchdog says economic growth during the final quarter of 2019 will be “significantly weaker″ than predicted in its fall report.
> 
> In its latest report on near-term growth, the parliamentary budget office says real GDP growth in the final three months of last year will likely come in at near-stagnant levels, at an annual rate of 0.3 per cent.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

My tax $$$ at work.

CBC losses in the billions after HNIC fallout: Memo



> The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is hemorrhaging billions of dollars after losing the rights to Hockey Night In Canada, according to an internal federal memo.
> 
> According to Blacklock’s Reporter, the television network is out more than $2 billion after losing the 12-year licensing rights to Hockey Night In Canada. The memo, which was obtained via Access To Information, contradicts claims by network executive that the HNIC contract was only worth a “few dollars.”


More:



> In a confidential report, *the CBC claims it remains “the cornerstone of culture and democracy”* despite the large loss in ad revenue.


Bold mine.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Perhaps for the Laurentian elite...


----------



## SINC

A woman with more balls than Turdeau, Diane Francis knows what needs to be done. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

*Diane Francis: Get to work Trudeau and blockade the blockades*



> But here’s what leadership should do. Any discussions, or “dialogue,” are premature until the First Nations leaders and their followers stand down from their illegal actions. This is essential in order to demonstrate that discussions or “dialogue” are even worth pursuing with those involved in breaking the law.
> 
> If they do not — and some will not because they believe that Canada is not legitimately sovereign over their traditional lands — the only strategy is for the police or military to blockade the blockades. Armed perimeters should be established around “protests” areas, and nothing, and no person, should be allowed inside until they stand down.
> 
> Communications should be shut down within the perimeter.
> 
> This will avoid violent confrontations, and will eventually impede the spread of blockades. But if this does not work, and radicals push back in defiance of court orders to desist, or aggressively try to breach the police blockade, then law enforcement must protect the public.


https://business.financialpost.com/...z3-DJmn16g9EMGG4S8LN9Z8JRe_LsMA63ul_HIaUipeFA


----------



## Macfury

The problem with Trudeau is that he appears to actually want the blockades to succeed. He can't possibly work to achieve my goals - only to do whatever is politically expedient after he cedes all of the ground he possibly can.


----------



## SINC

.


----------



## SINC

When Trudeau won't act, private citizens will. A gang of guys chased the protesters off the tracks in Edmonton, tore down their blockade and loaded it up in trucks and took it away. If it's civil unrest Trudeau wants, he is going to get it Canada-wide if he doesn't have the police do the removals. Watch that boil over until someone dies. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

*WATCH: Frustrated locals tear down anti-pipeline blockade and load it into truck *


> An extraordinary scene unfolded in Edmonton this afternoon as citizens drove to the site of an anti-pipeline train blockade, tore it down, and loaded it into a truck.
> 
> Global TV’s Nicole Stillger tweeted “Counter-protestors hauling away the blockade and loading it into this truck."
> 
> People are beginning to speak up and take action against the anti-pipeline protests and blockades as Canada’s economy is stalling.


https://www.thepostmillennial.com/w...woCBPzZEOEp4ktos6wiD_Rf9YGFJZO-fPd9g3y6iSY5S0


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> When Trudeau won't act, private citizens will.


Watch. They'll be the ones getting charged.

FWIW, I hope nobody else does this. It's important for the eastern bastards to freeze in the dark in order for them to realize that Alberta can shut down natural gas, oil & propane shipments (among others) anytime we want.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Watch. They'll be the ones getting charged.


Not a cop in sight a half-hour after the confrontation.

EDIT: It is reported that one RCMP drove up and gave the anti protesters a thumbs up from his cruiser!


----------



## SINC

*Quebec rail blockade abandoned by protesters after riot police arrive to enforce injunction*

https://vancouversun.com/news/newsa...k8-rBT_9T2DjVkRsgIeFQ9N2MQ#Echobox=1582408223


----------



## SINC

*Teck warns Frontier oilsands mine rejection could lead to $1.1 billion in impairment charges*

https://business.financialpost.com/...hRwu6wRB65umhwjcf0oSU8GtLfLoy1ZRMIwTiwedRHhKA


----------



## eMacMan

Looks like the Truedope will have to tromp on First Nations toes should he fail to approve the Teck application.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/alberta-two-first-nations-deal-222022152.html



> EDMONTON — The Alberta government has struck deals with two northern Alberta First Nations over a proposed open-pit oilsands mine that's awaiting Ottawa's approval.
> 
> 
> The Mikisew Cree and Athabasca Chipewyan First Nations had previously reached deals with Teck Resources Ltd. for the Frontier mine, but were still negotiating with the province over environmental and cultural concerns.
> 
> Earlier this month, Alberta's Indigenous relations minister expressed concern that a public spat over the negotiations with Athabasca Chipewyan Chief Allan Adam, who also called for a share of tax revenue from resource projects, could give the federal government a reason to reject the project.
> 
> But on Sunday, the province announced agreements have been reached with both First Nations that address bison and caribou habitats and protect Wood Buffalo National Park.
> 
> Adam says in a news release he's now confident the project is a net benefit to his community, while Mikisew Cree Chief Archie Waquan called work by Teck and Alberta to resolve their concerns "groundbreaking."


----------



## SINC

*Teck Resources withdraws application for Frontier oil sands mine: sources*

https://globalnews.ca/news/6586908/teck-resources-withdraws-bid-frontier-mine/


----------



## Beej

SINC said:


> *Teck Resources withdraws application for Frontier oil sands mine: sources*
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6586908/teck-resources-withdraws-bid-frontier-mine/


A lot of words over a project that was uneconomic at the announced cost.


----------



## eMacMan

Beej said:


> A lot of words over a project that was uneconomic at the announced cost.


By my calculations construction costs would be about $7/barrel. Allowing for inflation and over runs that is probably closer to $12/barrel. Labour would be around $3-10/barrel. The 3 was based on average $100,000/year salary. I suspect actual labour costs would be higher and one has to allow for inflation over 40 years. So we are talking as much as $25/barrel recovery costs versus selling at a minimum of $40/barrel, much higher if a pipeline is in place.

The project should be viable provided it is financed via stock sales rather than borrowing and given the completion of at least one pipeline to get it to market.

I am guessing that the labour costs for construction are included in the $20 billion project costs whereas the day to day labour costs are not included? For all the wordiness the article fails to include an actual breakdown.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> By my calculations construction costs would be about $7/barrel. Allowing for inflation and over runs that is probably closer to $12/barrel. Labour would be around $3-10/barrel. The 3 was based on average $100,000/year salary. I suspect actual labour costs would be higher and one has to allow for inflation over 40 years. So we are talking as much as $25/barrel recovery costs versus selling at a minimum of $40/barrel, much higher if a pipeline is in place.
> 
> The project should be viable provided it is financed via stock sales rather than borrowing and given the completion of at least one pipeline to get it to market.
> 
> I am guessing that the labour costs for construction are included in the $20 billion project costs whereas the day to day labour costs are not included? For all the wordiness the article fails to include an actual breakdown.


Fort Hills operating and maintenance costs are in the high 20s. That's a new mine co-owned by Teck, and with a higher quality bitumen deposit. The capital costs, including a return, are over $20 per barrel. Projects also use debt to reduce capital costs because lenders often have lower return expectations than equity investors (e.g. 6% vs 12%). Costs are easily $50 per barrel, using their announced cost.


----------



## eMacMan

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/alberta-court-appeal-rule-whether-090004582.html




> EDMONTON — The Alberta Court of Appeal has ruled that the federal carbon tax is not constitutional.
> 
> In a 4-1 decision, the court says the legislation that brought in the tax erodes provincial jurisdiction.
> 
> The Alberta government had argued in its challenge of the tax that climate change isn't a national issue requiring overriding federal intervention.



Of course unanswered in the story, does this stop the feds from collecting carbon tax in AB, at least until this reaches the Supreme Court?


----------



## SINC

A long but excellent read:

*Jonathan Kay: Canada's cultural elites have seen the enemy — and it is Canadians*



> If you’re interested in history, there’s no better podcast than Mike Duncan’s “Revolutions,” which takes listeners through detailed accounts of the great historical upheavals of the last 400 years. Canada gets scant treatment, of course, since this country never truly witnessed a real revolution. But we do get a significant cameo during Duncan’s 15-episode arc on the American Revolution. And seeing Canada (or, more accurately, what would become Canada) through the eyes of late 18th-century American revolutionaries is instructive.
> 
> In America’s northern borderlands, “Canadians” — as we now call ourselves — broadly consisted of three separate groups: Indigenous societies, French Catholics in what would become Lower Canada, and (largely) English-speaking Protestants in what would become Upper Canada. For their own reasons, some First Nations participated in the American Revolutionary War, while French Catholics largely sat it out, having no particular interest in setting out from Montreal and Quebec City (which were already substantial towns with a well-developed civil society) to help two groups of anti-Catholic Anglophiles fight each over parochial trade and fiscal grievances.


Much more at the link:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jo...lbomCaayujuh5MmWoqj7ClVlLw#Echobox=1582631539


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> A lot of words over a project that was uneconomic at the announced cost.


If the numbers are correct, yes.

However, a risk that a _private_ company was willing to take, all the while _not_ begging for tax-payer funded gov't handouts <cough-Bombardier-cough>.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Cancelled Teck Frontier means even First Nations' support can't get projects built



> Federal cabinet was expected to rule on the mine this week. Teck’s sudden decision to withdraw its application has many consequences, but one is to get Ottawa off the hook for a ruling that deeply divided the Trudeau cabinet.
> 
> Premier Jason Kenney had made Teck the big test of whether the Trudeau government will allow further oilsands projects. Now the Liberals won’t even face the test.


Related:

Trudeau government gifted $10,000 to anti-pipeline group



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government gave nearly $10,000 of taxpayer money in 2019 to an organization that has funded and organized anti-pipeline movements.
> 
> Environment Canada, which was headed by Liberal minister Catherine McKenna at the time, made two separate payments to Tides Canada—coming to a total of $9,761.
> 
> These two payments were made in January and October of 2019.


Related, too:

The Teck decision is the culmination of Trudeau's anti-oil agenda



> If one were to assemble a group of the most insidiously devious minds that this world has spawned (the Prof. Moriartys and Lex Luthors of the world) and ask them to devise the surest way to snap the bonds of Canadian Confederation, disenchant and alienate an entire productive region of the country, paralyze the nation’s transportation system and, while they were at it, deepen the rift with Canada’s Indigenous citizens, they’d report back in a heartbeat: “Sorry, we can’t come up with anything that beats what you’ve already got — the present Trudeau government.”


Related, three:

Teck Frontier cancellation entirely Trudeau's fault



> Make no mistake, the end of Teck Resources’ Frontier oilsands mine is Justin Trudeau’s fault — plainly, clearly, unequivocally.
> 
> The project’s cancellation also means the radical fringe is in charge of Canada, not the government, the courts or the police.
> 
> Teck’s decision, announced Sunday, will also have far-reaching effects on the entire Canadian economy, not just the energy sector.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Canada: A Dead Country Walking



> Canada is presently in the throes of social and political disintegration. A left-leaning electorate has once again empowered a socialist government promoting all the lunatic ideological shibboleths of the day: global warming or “climate change,” radical feminism, indigenous sovereignty, expansionary government, environmental strangulation of energy production, and the presumed efficiency of totalitarian legislation. Industry and manufacturing are abandoning the country in droves and heading south.
> 
> Canada is now reaping the whirlwind. The Red-Green Axis consisting of social justice warriors, hereditary band chiefs, renewable energy cronies, cultural Marxists, and their political and media enablers have effectively shut down the country. The economy is at a standstill, legislatures and City Halls have been barricaded, blockades dot the landscape, roads and bridges have been sabotaged, trains have been derailed (three crude-by-rail spillages in the last two months), goods are rotting in warehouses, heating supplies remain undelivered, violent protests and demonstrations continue to wreak havoc—and *the hapless Prime Minister, who spent a week swanning around Africa as the crisis unfolded, is clearly out of his depth and has no idea how to control the mayhem. No surprise here. A wock pupper politico in thrall to the Marxist project and corporate financial interests, Justin Trudeau is generally baffed out when it comes to any serious or demanding concerns involving the welfare of the people and the economic vitality of the nation. Little is to be expected of him in the current emergency apart from boilerplate clichés and vague exhalations of roseate sentiment.*


Bold mine...


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> However, a risk that a _private_ company was willing to take, all the while _not_ begging for tax-payer funded gov't handouts <cough-Bombardier-cough>.


They were not necessarily willing to take a $20 billion risk. First, Teck is too small and would have wanted partners. Second, I've seen "walking dead" projects keep going through approvals processes through some form of corporate inertia (probably cheerleaders on the project team), a probable desire to avoid having to make the writedown official and on the books ($1 billion in this case), or a genuine optimism that prices could rise so it's worth sinking another $100 million into the paperwork process to keep the project ready to go. Kitimat's LNG project is a good example of the last point. It hung around while most other proposals were cancelled, waiting for higher prices and favourable policy changes. 

The higher prices lasted all of two seconds, but maybe they'll bounce back when the project's finished.


----------



## FeXL

I Want A New Country (Bumped)



> Shannon Stubbs gets results: *Emergency debate in the House tonight on Teck Frontier withdrawal*


Comments very salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Lying sacks of $h!t...

Liberals apologize after hiding $183K in contracts awarded to environmental group



> The Liberal government has been forced to apologize after coming clean about concealing nearly $200,000 in contracts awarded to an environmental group.
> 
> According to Blacklock’s Reporter, Natural Resources Minister Seamus O’Regan said he was “deeply sorry” after the omission was discovered by a Conservative MP from Alberta.
> 
> In an Inquiry of Ministry, MP Earl Dreeshen (Red Deer-Mountain View, Alta.) asked for details of contracts awarded to the Calgary-based Pembina Institute from 2017 to 2019. The amount was recorded as “nil” in a statement signed by O’Regan and his department suggested it had “not granted any contracts to the Pembina Institute.”
> 
> But the government had, in fact, paid Pembina $182,958 for contracts, in addition to $1.7 million in federal grants.


The only thing worse than a Lieberal politician is the type of scum bucket who would hold their nose in obeisance & vote for one.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The Liberals' silver lining: as Canada grinds to a halt, emissions decline



> Has the bat-signal gone out for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity to insert the power of her mighty mandate into the current crisis? We need the full power of this enigmatic ministry to sort us out. It’s not like there’s anything else in that portfolio keeping the minister busy.
> 
> Has the word come in from the PMO to get the gender analytics team into full feminist gear, and by studious scrutinization of gender categories and sub-categories get a definitive X-ray of what this crisis is really about? Surely sexism must be at the heart of it, it being a truism with every progressive government that sexism is at the heart of everything.
> 
> Where’s the Deliverology Maestro now that the country really needs him? Has the wisdom of this sage so fully evaporated since the Liberals went into full symposium with him — children at the feet of a guru — in the early and cheerful days of their initial majority? *If there was ever a time for deliverance this must surely be it.*


Bold mine.

Rex, there's been a banjo playin' in Ottawa since 2015... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

American woman leading Vancouver protests. Enough already!

*A closer look at some of the key players in the Lower Mainland’s Wet’suwet’en protests*



> “We are Indigenous people who have lived on this land for a very long time with uninvited settlers on our land,” Knight told Global News at the office occupation.
> 
> “It’s an economic disruption,” she said of the port blockade.
> 
> “We recognize that the government tends to only understand the language of money, so disrupting capital and the flow of goods is a language that they will understand.”
> 
> *But Knight, who self-identifies as the organizer of solidarity actions with Wet’suwet’en in Vancouver, isn’t from Canada.
> 
> She told Global News Tuesday that she was of Yurok and Navajo ancestry with roots in California and New Mexico, and came to the country eight years ago for school, though did not want to discuss her immigration status*.


https://globalnews.ca/news/6601384/..._sfe0p7pbAOMTSx0FL1lBh4NrqGCKbuTFm9KlAkVce88g


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

In case there was any doubt...

Thin Blue Whine



> *The commissioner of the RCMP says that "enforcement is the last option." That is not a paraphrase – it's a direct quote from the chief law enforcement officer in Canada.* https://t.co/ukXdkoOCHi
> 
> — Andrew Lawton (@AndrewLawton) February 27, 2020​


Bold mine.

I'd all but given up on the Queen's Horsemen after High River. This seals the deal...


----------



## SINC

If Turdeau had a shred of decency, he would resign.

*'Canada is broken,' say majority of Canadians in poll taken in wake of rail blockades*



> The poll spells bad news for Trudeau with a majority of people believing the country is not headed in the right direction and the PM is not governing well
> 
> On the topic of the rail blockades, only 27 per cent of Canadians think Trudeau has handled the situation well.
> 
> In a time of widespread disagreement and ever-increasing polarization, there remains a bitter solidarity among Canadians in the belief that the government doesn’t know what it’s doing.
> 
> In the wake of regional discontent from the western provinces and blockades jamming up the country’s rail network, a towering majority of Canadians agree with the statement, “Right now, Canada is broken.”
> 
> Sixty-nine per cent of Canadians agree with the statement, rising to 83% in Alberta, found a DART & Maru/Blue poll conducted for the National Post.
> 
> “This is one of the few polls that I just looked at — and I’ve been doing this for 30 years, so I did polling around the Oka Crisis — I was astonished when I saw some of these numbers, but I’m not surprised,” said long-time pollster John Wright, a partner with DART.


Much more at the link.

https://nationalpost.com/news/one-t...5q0xlub0LAw2FuSaA5tapMHj_8#Echobox=1582888409


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*



SINC said:


> If Turdeau had a shred of decency...


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

One in four positives is more than enough of a mandate for the Sock Puppet's handlers...


----------



## CubaMark

*Stay classy, Alberta! Child rape now fair game when someone threatens your precious oil?*

*Disturbing 'Greta' decal bearing Alta. oilfield company logo drawing criticism*

An Alberta energy company has come under fire after its logo was displayed on a decal allegedly depicting a sex act with a female figure who appears to be 17-year-old Swede Greta Thunberg.

The image shows a pair of hands holding the braids of a female figure from behind. "Greta" is scrawled across her back. Directly below sits the logo of X-Site Energy Services.

A LinkedIn profile for a company of the same name, headquartered in Red Deer, Alta., advertises water management and high-efficiency frac fluid heating in Alberta and B.C.

Doug Sparrow, listed as general manager, has not responded to CTV News Edmonton's request for comment. A Facebook page for the company is not publicly available.

Rocky Mountain House resident Michelle Narang, whose sharing of the image on social media spurred a local social media storm, said she cried at the imagery.

"It was hurtful as a woman. It was hurtful as a mother. It was hurtful as an Albertan who's fighting for this industry all of the time and defending the hard work that men and women are doing each and every day and our amazing Canadian energy industry."










But before she posted an image of the decal, Narang says she called Sparrow and was told by him the company knew and approved of the marketing materials.

"I was like, 'OK, so you're OK with your company being promoted with the image of the rape of a minor?

"And his response was, 'She is not a minor. She's 17 now.' Then carried on by, 'That's not really what we meant.'"

(CTV News Edmonton)​


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

So you're offended by the imagery. Fine.

Where is the outrage for the 100,000 jobs (and the subsequent economic fallout) lost in the province due to this BS? Where is the outrage for all the First Immigrants who also lost jobs with the most recent cancellation? Where is the outrage that western Canadians are treated like colonies of the Laurentian Elite? Where is the outrage from the unbalanced calculations for transfer payments, chiefly Kaybeck hydroelectric? Where is the outrage for all the economic damage (and all the population affected) by the train track blockages? Where is the outrage that the head of the Queen's Horsemen says that "enforcement is the last option"?

Where is the outrage that thousands of children in the UK, most of them well under 17 years old, were pushed well past the sexual _imagery_ stage by Muslim sex groomers? Where is the outrage that thousands more from the EU have been sexually assaulted, raped, and/or killed by Muslims in the last decade?

Now, suddenly, you're offended by a _sticker_?

You may wish to re-examine your priorities, oh Classy One...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> You may wish to re-examine your priorities, oh Classy One...


His "woke" news feed only allows him to cut and paste so much outrage each day.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Where is the outrage for
> 
> Now, suddenly, you're offended by a _sticker_?
> 
> You may wish to re-examine your priorities, oh Classy One...


Fortunately, my degree of outrage(ousness?) is not defined by the likes of you.

Your whataboutism is showing, BTW.

As for the Xsite energy dude - I wonder if he's related to this guy? Something in the water up there in Alberta?

*Sticker shock: Decals of train driving through protesters is just a joke, Alberta man says*










An Alberta man said decals he was selling depicting a train running over protesters are intended merely as a source of amusement.

Matt Bussey made the decals, which depicts a train with the words “Alberta Strong” and stick figures scurrying around it to avoid being struck. One of the figures is falling under the train while another appears to have been tossed in the air after being struck.

[....]

Bussey, who works at an Edmonton body shop, said he wasn’t initially planning on selling the train decal until he posted the one he made for himself and the post “blew up.”

“Honestly I found it funny and that’s about it,” Bussey said. “It’s just purely entertainment.”

He decided to print more and post them for sale for $5 after several people commented asking where they could purchase one.

(The Star Edmonton)​


----------



## Macfury

In your world, Mad Magazine would have been censored by the government. It must hurt to be as "woke" a hipster as you've become, CM.


----------



## SINC

*GUNTER: Trudeau Liberals jeopardizing Alberta's economy for the sake of moral smugness*



> I suppose you could say Christopher Columbus set out in 1492 without a real plan. He just intended to sail his three ships westward until they reached land, which they did.
> 
> Of course, he and his men didn’t end up where they had set out for. They were aiming for India and wound up in the Bahamas.
> 
> But, hey, who’s counting?
> 
> It’s the same with the Trudeau government and its climate-change goal of net-zero emissions by 2050.


More at the link.

https://edmontonsun.com/opinion/col...JRz6pWeyIljtGJs-kJhR0XgMd8#Echobox=1582813014


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Nor would I expect it to be. You are nowhere near rational, nor balanced enough. Your innate Prog hypocrisy simply does not allow it.



CubaMark said:


> Fortunately, my degree of outrage(ousness?) is not defined by the likes of you.


Yeah, there is. It's called "Tired of Prog Bull$h!t".

Frankly, I think the sticker's hilarious. On a personal note, if I cross paths with some idiot(s) standing in the middle of the street/road in some form of stupid blockade, that's exactly what the reflection in my rearview mirror is going to look like.

If you are stupid enough to stand in front of a moving train or vehicle, then all I can say is, this is Darwinism at its finest. Mess with the bull, get the horns. :lmao::lmao::lmao:



CubaMark said:


> Something in the water up there in Alberta?


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Sockboy: Dealing with all the important issues in Canada...

Canada Revenue Agency surveys public on colour of envelopes: Report



> Do you fear opening envelopes from the tax person?
> 
> *The Canada Revenue Agency spent $73,128 on focus group research* to find out, according to Blacklock’s Reporter.
> 
> The CRA, which processes 27 million tax returns annually, sends brown envelopes to individuals and businesses and wondered why some people may not open its mail.


My tax $$$ at work.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Sockboy: Dealing with all the important issues in Canada...
> 
> Canada Revenue Agency surveys public on colour of envelopes: Report
> 
> 
> 
> My tax $$$ at work.


The sick, puke colour of those envelopes is always unwelcome.


----------



## FeXL

Further on train protesters.


Attacking trains in Canada punishable by life in prison



> You know it was wrong when even one of the key Mohawks behind the original blockade is disgusted by attempts to derail a CN freight train.
> 
> Still, strangely, some believe lighting wooden skids on fire to jam under a moving train is a retaliatory and justified civil protest over gas pipeline grievances and not a crime.
> 
> Of course the Criminal Code of Canada makes it clear.


All that remains is for someone to enforce...

Sorry. I forgot...


----------



## FeXL

Good! Wonder who had the stones?

'THEY should pay!' British taxpayers' fury as £20m bill for Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's security falls entirely on UK after Canada refuses to pay it after Megxit



> Prince Harry and Meghan Markle were facing an angry backlash today as their £20million security bill looks set to fall squarely on British taxpayers after Canada refused to keep paying.
> 
> Canadian police confirmed last night it would stop assisting with security for the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when they step down as working royals and become private citizens after Megxit on March 31.
> 
> This means the cost of round-the-clock protection for the couple and baby Archie will fall solely to the taxpayer-funded Metropolitan Police, despite the couple leaving the UK for North America.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

A billion and a half $$$, plus $600 million just don't buy the brand loyalty it used to...

Trudeau minister says government WILL regulate online media, AGAIN



> Trudeau’s Heritage Minister Steven Guilbeault said on Monday that he would introduce a bill that will follow the recommendations for the registration of internet news sites, according to Blacklock’s Reporter.
> 
> This comes despite Guilbeault backtracking earlier this year, saying that he would not license news outlets after a CTV interview where he said he would. Now, Guilbeault is trying to do the same thing, again.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Conservatives ask House ethics committee to study Trudeau's SNC-Lavalin ethics breach 



> The Conservatives are pushing to revive a request for a committee probe of Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion's report that found that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau broke the federal Conflict of Interest Act in relation to the SNC-Lavalin scandal.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The sick, puke colour of those envelopes is always unwelcome.


After a nice, cold craft IPA & careful consideration, I think they should be black & brown. Black for Prinz Dummkopf's face & brown fer his arse...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I kill me.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

When Liberals enact bad laws:

*How the case of an Alberta woman shows the Charter trouble with mandatory alcohol screening*

From the story:



> Thompson’s case is unusual, but it has already happened to other people — and with police using the new law to mount an ever more aggressive strategy at targeting drivers, there will certainly be others. The federal justice department is tracking at least 25 court challenges to mandatory alcohol screening across the country, internal documents show. If mandatory screening is ever struck down as unconstitutional, it’s cases like Thompson’s that will probably do it.


https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...utJvjKB59zaieRjiByDjvJr_pk#Echobox=1582944789


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *Stay classy, Alberta! Child rape now fair game when someone threatens your precious oil?*
> 
> *Disturbing 'Greta' decal bearing Alta. oilfield company logo drawing criticism*
> 
> An Alberta energy company has come under fire after its logo was displayed on a decal allegedly depicting a sex act with a female figure who appears to be 17-year-old Swede Greta Thunberg.
> 
> The image shows a pair of hands holding the braids of a female figure from behind. "Greta" is scrawled across her back. Directly below sits the logo of X-Site Energy Services.
> 
> A LinkedIn profile for a company of the same name, headquartered in Red Deer, Alta., advertises water management and high-efficiency frac fluid heating in Alberta and B.C.
> 
> Doug Sparrow, listed as general manager, has not responded to CTV News Edmonton's request for comment. A Facebook page for the company is not publicly available.
> 
> Rocky Mountain House resident Michelle Narang, whose sharing of the image on social media spurred a local social media storm, said she cried at the imagery.
> 
> "It was hurtful as a woman. It was hurtful as a mother. It was hurtful as an Albertan who's fighting for this industry all of the time and defending the hard work that men and women are doing each and every day and our amazing Canadian energy industry."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But before she posted an image of the decal, Narang says she called Sparrow and was told by him the company knew and approved of the marketing materials.
> 
> "I was like, 'OK, so you're OK with your company being promoted with the image of the rape of a minor?
> 
> "And his response was, 'She is not a minor. She's 17 now.' Then carried on by, 'That's not really what we meant.'"
> 
> (CTV News Edmonton)​



Much ado about nothing!

*Greta sticker that drew outrage in Alberta not child pornography: RCMP*



> CALGARY — RCMP in central Alberta say a decal that appears to show a well-known teenage climate activist in a sexual act is not child pornography.
> 
> The decal bears the logo of X-Site Energy Services below a cartoon figure seeming to depict 17-year-old Greta Thunberg of Sweden.
> 
> The company’s general manager, Doug Sparrow, has denied having anything to do with the stickers.
> 
> A concerned citizen had called the Mounties and reported the sticker as child pornography.
> 
> The general investigative section of the RCMP in Red Deer says it consulted with police experts in the sexual exploitation of children.
> 
> It concluded the decal does not include components needed to consider it child pornography nor does the decal depict “a non-consensual act that would be a direct threat to the person.”
> 
> “Alberta RCMP do not believe it constitutes a criminal offence,” a police statement said Friday. “As such, Alberta RCMP will not be commenting any further on this investigation.”


More at the link, but by now you know it's all contrived BS:

https://vancouversun.com/pmn/news-p...yZm18kctot6ZLG7T1B50n6TngI#Echobox=1582933519


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Much ado about nothing!
> 
> *Greta sticker that drew outrage in Alberta not child pornography: RCMP*
> 
> 
> More at the link, but by now you know it's all contrived BS:


SINC, do the women in your household / life share your opinion? 

I saw the RCMP posting earlier that "this did not meet the standards" — fine, whatever. It still is enormously offensive, and is a specific call for violence against a young woman.

How it can be seen as anything else, I truly cannot comprehend.

And I'm not the only one, remember this was posted by a woman who is a self-described champion of the oil industry, member of Rocky Mountain House council, and small business owner:

_Rocky Mountain House resident Michelle Narang, whose sharing of the image on social media spurred a local social media storm, said she cried at the imagery.

"It was hurtful as a woman. It was hurtful as a mother. It was hurtful as an Albertan who's fighting for this industry all of the time and defending the hard work that men and women are doing each and every day and our amazing Canadian energy industry."_​
One wonders how y'all would react if someone called for Jason Kenney to be buttf***ed publicly.... 

Kenney, at least - and others in the Alberta oil industry - have lambasted these stickers. 

The Vancouver Sun article you posted is also rather disingenuous in stating that the owner of XSite says he had "nothing to do with" the stickers, when:

_Narang says she called Sparrow and was told by him the company knew and approved of the marketing materials.

"I was like, 'OK, so you're OK with your company being promoted with the image of the rape of a minor?

"And his response was, 'She is not a minor. She's 17 now.' Then carried on by, 'That's not really what we meant.'"_​
That's an admission that he did indeed have something to do with it.


----------



## Macfury

CM, you've never opened your mouth when your fellow travelers on the left suggest that their political opponents be killed, raped or jailed. Suddenly, you've got a big surge of aging hipster outrage and ask how we might feel if "someone" suggested a conservative politician be publicly raped? That horse left the barn long ago.


----------



## FeXL

FeXL said:


> After a nice, cold craft IPA & careful consideration, I think they should be black & brown. Black for Prinz Dummkopf's face & brown fer his arse...
> 
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> I kill me.
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


Oh! And a big green marijuana leaf, right in the middle. You know, to remind us it's from The Dope...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> CM, you've never opened your mouth when your fellow travelers on the left suggest that their political opponents be killed, raped or jailed. Suddenly, you've got a big surge of aging hipster outrage and ask how we might feel if "someone" suggested a conservative politician be publicly raped? That horse left the barn long ago.


Or burned or exploded or shot or anything of the ilk. Nor has he ever expressed outrage at the 10's of thousands of actual rapes (child and adult) in the EU at the hands of Muslims.

As to his query about Kenney, frankly, I'd consider it typical Prog behaviour...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Killing hope where it's most needed – among Aboriginal youth



> Why are people who have no stake in the miseries of First Nations leading the assault against development in which Indigenous people can share?


Good question, Rex.

Bigot?

More:



> For example, I have seen an online video of Ellis Ross, an Aboriginal, a British Columbia MLA, and even more to the point, someone who speaks with proper directness on matters affecting his people. He goes to the heart of things in my view.
> 
> His message, as I read it, is that killing such projects kills hope where it is most needed — among Aboriginal youth. *He asks truly crucial questions. What’s wrong with jobs? What’s wrong with dignity that comes from jobs? Why are people outside the communities affected, who really have no stake in the miseries of reserves and the despair of the young people on them, leading the assault against development in which Aboriginal people can share?* There is such a scarcity of “voices” such as Mr. Ross’s, and certainly of leaders such as Mr. Ross.


Bold mine.

I think I just figured it out!!! :yikes:

Jobs means freedom. Freedom means no longer under direct gov't control. And the Lieberal gov't in particular (and Progs in general) do not like a free populace. Independence is anathema to commies...

Related:

Kenney accuses 'green left militants' of damaging prospects for Indigenous communities



> In the wake of Teck Resources Ltd.’s decision to withdraw its Frontier oilsands project application, Premier Jason Kenney took aim Wednesday at “urban green left militants” who he blamed for destroying potential jobs in Indigenous communities.


----------



## FeXL

Good! Getting what they voted for, good & hard.

Toronto and Vancouver breaking North American records for immigration growth



> Greater Toronto and Metro Vancouver are growing far faster through immigration than any other North American city.
> 
> The two Canadian metropolises are absorbing many more immigrants per capita than the United States’ top immigrant-receiving cities, such as New York, Miami, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C.
> 
> The rapid growth of Toronto and Vancouver through immigration comes as the federal Liberals in 2019 welcomed the largest number of new immigrants to the country in more than a century at 341,000.
> 
> The concentrated flow into Toronto and Vancouver *is occurring as the province of Quebec has reduced its immigration levels by 20 per cent*, leading to fewer moving last year to Montreal (34,620). The two Canadian cities’ immigration numbers also coincide with tightening border rules in the U.S., which has long allowed in three times fewer immigrants per capita than Canada.


Bold mine.

Kaybeckers is RACIS'!!!


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

I'm sorry. Are you engaging in that most despicable of practices, whataboutism?

It certainly looks like whataboutism to me.

Does it look like whataboutism to anybody else?

How about you, ya hypocritical Bigot? Is that whataboutism or not?



CubaMark said:


> One wonders how y'all would react if someone called for Jason Kenney to be buttf***ed publicly...


----------



## FeXL

Huh.

We Are All Treaty People$



> Let’s see details.
> 
> I always said it was only about the money. https://t.co/f0yXrCaNfp
> 
> — * W. Brett Wilson * (@WBrettWilson) March 1, 2020​
> Update.
> 
> E er ah um if er e ah if we um er if um we
> 
> What’s with these Trudeau liberals. Isn’t fluent speaking a prerequisite of being a minister. These liberals are why Canada is broken. #incompetence pic.twitter.com/Enozousbs5
> 
> — Mike (@Midnightrider98) March 1, 2020​


From the comments:



> Good question in the Twitter feed: “What changed? ”
> 
> Did the barrels of cash funneled into their pockets somehow make the pipeline ‘safe’ now?
> 
> Details are secret, for obvious reasons.


Curiouser & curiouser...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Curiouser & curiouser...


Yep, consider this, which make the natives as crooked and dirty as the Liberals making the deal with them: 

*THE REAL STORY: Many Say The ‘Chief Woos’ Negotiating With The Liberals Has A Title That Was Stripped From The Real Chief Woos – A Woman Who Supports The Coastal GasLink Pipeline*



> Three Wet’suwet’en women with hereditary titles who supported the pipeline were stripped of those titles by the same men who oppose the pipeline and are negotiating with the Liberals.
> 
> It appears the Trudeau Liberals may be legitimizing what seems to be an anti-matriarch coup.
> 
> According to a Globe & Mail report from June 9, which is now resurfacing, three Wet’suwet’en women who support the Coastal GasLink pipeline and had hereditary titles say they were stripped of those titles by the men now negotiating with the Liberal government.
> 
> The women had formed the Wet’suwet’en Matrilineal Coalition, to help bring people together to discuss tough issues facing the community.
> 
> Then, they were stripped of their titles:
> 
> “While the natural-gas pipeline project has been approved by all 20 elected First Nation councils along the route, seven male Wet’suwet’en hereditary house chiefs have led a campaign to oppose it.
> 
> The chiefs say they stripped Ms. Tait-Day, Ms. Glaim and Ms. George of their hereditary titles because the women created WMC without proper authority. But the women dispute the validity of the severe disciplinary action taken against them, and argue that the WMC remains an ideal group to help bring the wishes of Wet’suwet’en members to the forefront.
> 
> “I estimate that a large majority of our nation supports the project,” Ms. Tait-Day said.”


More at the link.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/202...LA1U1AN4C_aUx7eVT0xWrhNhoMGuWLSOkxqObV-zOV1B8


----------



## SINC

*Canadians are realizing foreign groups sabotaged our energy economy — for no good reason*



> Is the pipeline debate starting to resolve in favour of pipelines being built and in favour of Canadians receiving full value for our energy exports? I believe it is, in part due to the realization as to just how much of the anti-pipeline campaign is foreign funded. More about that funding in a moment, but there’s a new reason for finding the blatant U.S.-based interference in Canadian energy policy particularly egregious.
> 
> The U.S. organization, 350.org, loves spouting opinions about Canadian energy. Its founder and most vocal spokesperson, Bill McKibben, seems to believe we need a lot of his help in deciding how we here in Canada should manage our affairs. He unsurprisingly celebrates Canadian pipeline opposition. But what should concern all Canadians is 350.org celebrating that it helps get Canadian young people arrested. Here’s a boast from its 2016 annual report: “1,000 people were trained in civil disobedience practices, and 99 youths were arrested in Ottawa protesting the pipeline.”


More at the link.

https://business.financialpost.com/...7UvCrnjZF5wC09-YmzzjRHO-0LrSWRDqHJbDi2QrCcyCA


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Hello, Bigot.
> 
> I'm sorry. Are you engaging in that most despicable of practices, whataboutism?
> 
> It certainly looks like whataboutism to me.
> 
> Does it look like whataboutism to anybody else?
> 
> How about you, ya hypocritical Bigot? Is that whataboutism or not?


:lmao: That word you are using. It does not mean what you apparently think it means. Thanks for making my case for me. Now, please, resume attacking the messenger and praising your orange-tinted god of the small hands. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Says the guy with a picture of a Che Guevara T-shirt for his avatar...



CubaMark said:


> ...praising your orange-tinted god of the small hands. :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

My use of that word is precisely the same as your use.

If my use is incorrect, then so is yours.



CubaMark said:


> That word you are using.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

We Are All Treaty People$



> This is Trudeau’s mob.
> 
> Anti-pipeline lobbyist, Tides Canada, paid $220k to Wet’suwet’en. Sarah Goodman, former VP Tides, is now Trudeau's top climate guru. Even Heritage Minster, Guilbeault, got $100k from Tides for his foundation. Wonder why illegal blockades still up? Retweet. https://t.co/rpDGdQjzLP pic.twitter.com/Zif5sdFgyB
> 
> — Canadian Yoda (@Labrie8) February 21, 2020​


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Getting what they voted for, good & hard.

Quebec Premier Says Illegal Blockaders South Of Montreal Are Armed With AK-47s



> According to Quebec Premier Francois Legault, illegal blockaders in the Mohawk community of Kahnawake are armed with AK-47s:
> 
> _ “Legault told reporters in Quebec City the government has information from what he called “good sources” that there are AK-47s in Kahnawake.
> 
> He says Warriors on the reserve are armed, and the situation is very delicate.”_​


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Corcoran's assessment of the "big zero" is wrong. The real "big zero" is the sock puppet, Messer Blackface McGroper, himself.

The big zero in Ottawa's net-zero carbon plan



> One of the key politicians overseeing Canada’s natural resources policy crisis is Trudeau’s Natural Resources Minister, Seamus O’Regan, who flew to Alberta this week to explain that Ottawa does not have a plan to achieve the miracle of net-zero carbon emissions by 2050. “Net-zero, we believe, is a marker for your ability to take this seriously,” he told the CBC’s Power and Politics. In an interview with the Calgary Herald, O’Regan announced that “You cannot get to net zero without Alberta, you cannot get to net zero without the Canadian oil and gas industry.”
> 
> And you can’t get to zero without a plan, which O’Regan admitted Ottawa does not have. “The sooner that we have a plan … the sooner that investors know what direction we’re heading in and what the rules are,” he told the CBC.
> 
> But here’s the reality. Canada can never get to net zero — not without a miracle from a saviour who walks into Alberta and changes all the fossil fuels into carbon-free energy that can be extracted with an app via a cellphone.


Related:

Costs of the carbon tax to Canadians are much higher than Ottawa is letting on



> Last week, the Parliamentary Budget Officer (PBO) furnished the Liberal government with the confirmation bias it was looking for in order to be able to claim its carbon tax system would enrich most Canadians. According to the report the PBO released, “most households will receive higher transfers than amounts paid in fuel charges. They will therefore be better off on a net basis because the rebate exceeds the household carbon cost.”
> 
> *One of the charts in the report purports to show that almost all households in Alberta are enriched by the carbon tax — and that the higher the tax rate, the higher the net benefits. Most readers will find that hard to believe. And with good reason: the PBO report arrives at its conclusion that the federal rebate exceeds the cost of the carbon tax only by excluding much of the cost.*


Bold mine.

Huh. Prog politicians telling only half the truth? 

Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Canada’s terrorism offenders are coming out of prison still radicalized



> At Suliman Mohamed’s 2016 sentencing for trying to join ISIS, the Ottawa judge presiding over his case did not hold back, scolding those aligned with the terrorist group for “embracing the devil.”
> 
> Mohamed got seven years.
> 
> But three years later, he was already out of prison on statutory release, although his parole report said he had not abandoned extremist ideology and remained a “significant” risk.
> 
> He was one of five terrorism offenders released from Canadian prisons in 2019, despite concerns raised by parole boards that four of them still posed a risk to public safety.
> 
> At least three more could be released this year.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

<cough, cough> "Thigns! The thigns..." <cough>

"They're Flying It In!" - Canadians Furious At Trudeau As Government Refuses To Stop Travelers From Iran



> Furious Canadians slammed the government for failing to cancel flights from Iran, presently the country with the worst outbreak outside China, and other policies that suggest a dangerously blithe response from the government, *perhaps as a consequence of PM Trudeau's commitment to 'woke' policies (many have slammed travel bans as racist).*


Links' bold.

More:



> All of Canada's cases have been definitively tied to travelers. One patient, a man in his 50s who is a Toronto resident temporarily living in Vaughan, Ontario, where he is under self-isolation, *is the brother of a Toronto man who had traveled to Iran recently,* Global News reports.


Links' bold.

Further:



> Though airlines have cancelled routes, travelers visiting hot zones can still fly into Canada without being hassled by the government.
> 
> *Why won't Trudeau take a page out of Trump's virus playbook? Is it because he's too 'woke'?*


M'bold.

No. It's because Prinz Dummkopf is an f'ing idiot...

Related:

Alarming videos show Iranians LICKING holy shrines in religious tradition as country's clerical hardliners refuse to close sites despite coronavirus outbreak



> Clips shared on social media show people licking the doors and burial mound inside the Fatima Masumeh shrine in Qom, defying token advice by the health ministry.
> 
> Worshippers in the videos brazenly state they 'don't care what happens', even if they catch or spread the infection which has killed at least 54 in the country.
> 
> Iran's hardline clerical establishment has refused to shut down Qom despite the holy city suffering the brunt of the outbreak and pilgrims spreading the virus across the Middle East.


Quite frankly, I don't care what happens to these idiots inside their own country. However, when it starts affecting people outside of their border...

Related, too:

Washington State Announces Six Coronavirus Deaths



> First one. Then a second yesterday. Now six.
> 
> The state now says that coronavirus might have been spreading "for weeks."


Related, 3:

Your Moral And Intellectual Superiors



> Another reason our institutions aren't prepared is that tech journalists like Ryan Mac of Buzzfeed called people who did advocate for preparation "bubble boy".
> 
> *Four weeks later, Palo Alto workers are cleaning out schools in hazmat suits.*


Bold mine.

Related, 4:

How Australia defied global health authority on coronavirus



> Sydney Morning Herald;
> 
> *Why were the Australians ahead of the world? For a very simple reason. They don’t trust the WHO.* The information from multiple international sources is that the WHO is under intense pressure from the Chinese government, and succumbing to it.
> 
> The Australian Commonwealth Chief Medical Officer, Brendan Murphy, told the NSC that it was medically inexplicable that the WHO hadn’t already declared a global pandemic. It’s politics, in other words.
> 
> That’s why Australia had earlier forged ahead of the WHO in declaring the China travel ban, on February 1. It was, again, on the unanimous advice of the AHPPC.​


Bold mine.

Neither should anybody else.

Related, 5:

Canada won't ban flights from COVID-19 hot spots or shut borders, containment remains strategy



> A Health Canada spokesperson told _The Toronto Sun_ containment is still Canada’s strategy and that *the Canadian government will not shut down its borders or ban direct or connecting flights from China.*
> 
> The same applies to Italy and Iran, despite Ghebreyesus confirming “24 cases had been exported from Italy to 14 countries and 97 cases had been exported from Iran to 11 countries.”


Bold mine.

Of course not. Idiots...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

If this idiot had two brain cells to rub together, he'd be dangerous...

Trudeau tells mining conference that battling climate change is good for investment



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau made a surprise appearance at an annual mining conference in downtown Toronto on Monday to pitch the idea that having a national policy framework to reduce the country’s carbon emissions to net zero by 2050 is good for the economy.


You know what's good for the economy?

Fewer GD Prog politicians...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Liberal minister won’t say who secret New York campaign donors are



> Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller, a close friend of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, will not reveal who his secret New York donors are.
> 
> According to Canadian election laws, candidates are required to reveal the identity of donors who contributed to their campaigns.
> 
> During the 2019 federal election, Miller attended a private fundraiser in New York City on October 10 to collect donations for his election campaign.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau’s strategy for reconciliation lies in ruins



> At this point it’s fair to say Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s strategy to improve relations with Canada’s Indigenous people — splitting and expanding the government bureaucracy dealing with them into two departments instead of one — *has been a failure.*


Another one?!

More:



> In abolishing the Department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) and replacing it with the word salad of first, the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and second, the Department of Indigenous Services, *Trudeau appeared to be oblivious to the root problem.*


Bold mine.

An oblivious Prog politician?

Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Even more on, "<cough>The Thigns!!!<cough, cough>".

Wuhan to Toronto, coronavirus hits home



> The people in Hazmat suits dealing with the contagious coronavirus were not in China or Iran.
> 
> They were at Yonge and Eglinton.
> 
> When it comes to concerns of spreading, it’s no longer just in Wuhan but closer to home in midtown Toronto.
> 
> A case of COVID-19 in a student at an ESL school at 90 Eglinton Ave. E., affiliated with the Toronto District Catholic School Board, has been confirmed.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Wrong colour of skin, wrong intent.

HYPOCRISY: Alberta couple given tickets for walking on CN land while blockaders get free pass



> An Alberta couple’s Facebook post highlighting law enforcement’s hypocrisy with enforcing the rule of law is gaining traction.
> 
> The post, published just before midnight, explains that in September 2019, her and her husband hopped a CN railway fence in Calgary to sit by a river bend. The couple says they “didn’t litter, didn’t light fires,” and that they simply skipped rocks on the water and walked with nature.


----------



## SINC

Good!

*Supreme Court will not hear appeal to Trans Mountain pipeline expansion*



> OTTAWA — The Trans Mountain pipeline expansion project has cleared another legal hurdle.
> 
> The Supreme Court of Canada has decided not to hear five challenges from environment and Indigenous groups from British Columbia.
> 
> Some had wanted the top court to consider whether the Liberal cabinet violated the Species at Risk Act when it decided to approve the pipeline expansion a second time in June 2019, arguing the project would harm the highly endangered southern resident killer whales.
> 
> The Federal Court of Appeal had overturned cabinet’s first approval of the pipeline in 2018, citing insufficient consultation with Indigenous Peoples and a failure to take the impacts on marine animals into account.
> 
> After another round of Indigenous consultations and a second look at marine impacts, cabinet gave a second green light, but the same Indigenous communities and environment groups that successfully challenged the approval in 2018, filed new appeals of the approval in 2019.
> 
> The Federal Court of Appeal heard — dismissed last month — appeals from Indigenous communities about whether there had been enough consultation, but had declined to hear arguments from the environment groups.


More at the link.

https://calgaryherald.com/pmn/news-...DRrmco4LIj3HlFQenAiTSt9ssY#Echobox=1583425334


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And The Budget Will Balance Itself, Man



> Those tax revenues will start pouring in any day now;
> 
> Canopy Growth Corp. said it will shut down two major cannabis production facilities and lay off about 500 staff in an effort to restructure its operations to better address changing consumer demand in the Canadian pot sector.
> 
> The Smiths Falls, Ont.-based company said its facilities in Aldergrove and Delta, B.C. represent about three million square feet of production space and will be shuttered, resulting in the reduction of about 500 jobs. Canopy will also halt plans to build a greenhouse in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ont., the company said.
> […]
> Canopy’s announcement comes amid a recent string of similar moves by other Canadian cannabis producers that have laid off staff in an effort to cut costs and become profitable. Last month, Aurora Cannabis Inc. announced it would lay off about 500 people, while Tilray Inc. said it would reduce its 1,450-odd workforce by about 10 per cent, and the Supreme Cannabis Co. announced plans to reduce its headcount of 700 by about 15 per cent.​
> Fancy that.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Bombardier ask for another $3.7 billion to study the effects of government money going through a jet engine



> Executives at Bombardier Inc. have asked the federal and provincial governments for another $3.7 billion in government grants and subsidies for a special research project whereby money is sucked into a jet engine just for the hell of it.
> 
> After selling its remaining stakes in the A220 commercial aircraft program and posting a loss of $1.6 billion US for 2019, the company is looking for more creative ways to lose money at everybody else’s expense.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Stinking Kiddie Scooters



> Ride it like you stole it: _Montreal ends electric scooter experiment, citing ‘disorder’…_


First comment nails it:



> Alberta paid for them anyway. No skin off their noses.


Yeppers.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Calling Captain Dialogue



> Port of Vancouver on the phone.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

:clap::clap::clap:

Dead Country Walking



> Berkshire bails;
> 
> Warren Buffett’s investment company Berkshire Hathaway has decided not to invest $4 billion in a liquefied natural gas (LNG) plant by the Saguenay port, according to Radio-Canada.
> 
> The marine terminal to ship LNG to overseas markets is slated to be built roughly 230 kilometres northeast of Quebec City, at a cost of $9.5 billion.
> 
> News broke Thursday morning in La Presse that Berkshire Hathaway was walking away from the project.
> 
> Stéphanie Fortin, head of communications for the company behind the project, GNL Québec, confirmed the company had lost a significant potential investor, but did not want to say who it is.
> 
> She did say, however, that the company lost the investor because of the “current Canadian political context.”​


As asked in the comments, "How’s it feel, Quebec?"

Yeppers.

Also:



> Oh no, Quebec lost a job, quick, organize a bailout and royal commission.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Divine Right Of Trudeau



> It’s good to be King.
> 
> In 1215, the Magna Carta began the hereditary monarchy’s eventual loss of power in England, but it was not until 1688 that the Glorious Revolution finally ended the divine right of kings in the United Kingdom. These were significant events in the achievement of democracy, one of mankind’s great accomplishments. Yet last Sunday, 332 years later, the governments of Canada and British Columbia entered into an agreement with the Wet’suwet’en nation that explicitly recognizes its hereditary governance system. As a result, a central tenet of Canada’s system of government will not apply to the way some Indigenous peoples govern their affairs. […]
> 
> The hereditary chiefs are understandably delighted with the agreement and feel their historical claims were finally recognized. But how will entrenching hereditary leadership affect the lot of community members? What will be the chiefs’ authority and jurisdiction and what will fall to the democratically elected band councils? Will the people be able to overrule leaders they did not chose? How will differences between the hereditary chiefs, the band councils and community members be resolved?
> 
> Then there are broader questions about the development of Canada’s vast natural resources. To whom will the constitutional requirement for consultation apply? Hereditary chiefs, band councils or both? So far, the courts have decided that consultations do not imply a veto right. But the prime minister has promised to adopt the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples this year. How will the courts interpret its requirement for “free, prior and informed consent” and to whom would that apply?​
> Related: Your money. Their power.


What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## SINC

*Jason Kenney endorses Erin O’Toole for leadership of Conservative party*

The kiss of death for O'Toole?

https://globalnews.ca/news/6637465/jason-kenney-erin-otoole-leadership-conservative/


----------



## SINC

Another sock boy failure in the making?

*Hospitals warn they can’t cope if coronavirus outbreak worsens in Canada*



> OTTAWA —Hospitals in Canada are warning the federal government that a health system already stretched thin may not be able to cope if the novel coronavirus outbreak continues to worsen here.
> 
> The hospitals say they need help now to “dramatically scale up” respiratory virus testing, to collaborate on laboratory analysis to quickly share data with other hospitals, and to protect staff amid a COVID-19 outbreak that has arrived in flu season, according to the national advocacy group for health care organizations and hospitals.
> 
> Add to that a run on masks and other personal protective equipment, a documented shortage of critical care beds, and a new federal warning to all persons entering Canada from anywhere in the world to “self-monitor” for symptoms of COVID-19, and you see a system that could quickly come to a breaking point.
> 
> That’s despite federal insistence the health system is “well-prepared” to deal with the growing numbers of confirmed cases in Canada — 51 as of Friday — and to trace all their contacts to contain the spread, according to Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam.


More at the link.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/fe...f-coronavirus-outbreak-worsens-in-canada.html


----------



## Macfury

I blame Trudeau for a lot of mismanagement around COVID-10, but the federal government is not responsible for provincial hospitals and their lack of preparation for a pandemic.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> I blame Trudeau for a lot of mismanagement around COVID-10, but the federal government is not responsible for provincial hospitals and their lack of preparation for a pandemic.


Trudeau is indeed complicit with the danger he has created by once again total inaction to curtail flights to and from certain countries that bring more of the disease to Canada. I truly do not understand why intelligent members of his caucus do not reign him in and avoid the total embarrassment to the Liberal party and the looming danger to our country.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> I truly do not understand why intelligent members of his caucus do not reign him in...


<snort> What intelligent members of his caucus?


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> <snort> What *intelligent members of his caucus*?



Would they not be Oxymorons?


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And how many planes full of Iranians has PM Dip$h!t allowed to land in Canada, untested?

Coronavirus: 77 of 165 Bahrain citizens evacuated from Iran test positive



> A total of 77 Bahrain citizens evacuated from Iran tested positive for coronavirus, the health ministry said on Wednesday, bringing the total to 189.
> 
> ...
> 
> The remaining 88 citizens tested negative for the virus but all evacuees were placed in quarantine as a precautionary measure.


----------



## FeXL

Why I'm hoping the railway blockades drag on a few more months



> Last weekend when it appeared that some kind of an “arrangement” had been reached with five Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs to end the month-long blockades that are crippling Canada’s economy, a part of me was disappointed.
> 
> In my view, the very best thing that could happen to Canada is for these blockades to drag on for a few more weeks and for train traffic in central Canada to shut down entirely. Short(er) term pain would certainly result in some longer-term, country-wide enlightenment and gain.
> 
> *Too many Canadians believe — wrongly — that this country and the world no longer need oil, gas and pipelines to thrive.*


Bold mine.

That should read, STUPIDLY...

Related:

Poll suggests public supports Coastal GasLink project, has lost patience with blockades



> British Columbians mostly support construction of the $6.6 billion Coastal GasLink pipeline and do not believe roadblocks, rail blockades and other disruptions are acceptable ways to show opposition to it, according to a poll.
> 
> *The online poll by Leger, conducted for Postmedia, suggests that 57 per cent of British Columbians strongly or somewhat support construction of the 670 km natural gas pipeline between Dawson Creek and LNG Canada’s liquefied natural gas plant at Kitimat.*


Bold mine.

Heresy!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Calgary's Four20 launches $130M lawsuit over failed deal to sell cannabis outlets



> Poor pot sales don’t justify the failure of a B.C. cannabis company to follow through on a deal to purchase a Calgary-based retailer, a $130-million lawsuit claims.
> 
> Four20, which had a network of retail stores throughout Alberta, alleges Tilray Inc. and its B.C. subsidiary, High Parks Shop Inc., have reneged on a deal to buy the Calgary company’s operations.
> 
> In a statement of claim filed in Calgary Court of Queen’s Bench, Four20 seeks an order finding Tilray has breached an arrangement agreement reached last August to purchase the retailer for $110 million.
> 
> The plaintiff is seeking that amount in damages, plus additional aggravated or punitive damages of $20 million.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

If this doesn't make your blood boil...

Docs show asylum-claimant health access expanded to 20 years



> *Illegal border crossers and asylum claimants whose cases have not yet been heard in front of an immigration judge are in some cases being given 20 years of all-access to gold-plated healthcare services, the Sun has learned.
> 
> This provides access to every medical procedure available under the Canada Health Act, as well as full dental coverage and tax-payer funded prescription drugs*, according to a medical assistant who is blowing the whistle on these exorbitant freebees.
> 
> The medical assistant, who spoke to the Sun on condition of anonymity and provided supporting documentation to back these claims, works at a medical clinic in York Region that takes patients covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP). This one office in a town north of Toronto sees 30 to 40 migrants with 20-year permits each week, said the source.


Emphasis mine.

My tax $$$ at work.


----------



## FeXL

Nice work if you can get it...

Saskatchewan’s $8.5M investment fund for First Nations fails to create jobs



> An investment fund aimed at creating jobs for First Nations people in Saskatchewan provided few employment opportunities and lost millions of taxpayers’ dollars.
> 
> According to recent financial statements, the Government of Saskatchewan lost $8.5 million through its First Nations and Metis Fund (FNMF) which was set up in 2006 under the Lorne Calvert government. The Saskatchewan Party took over the fund between 2007 to 2019.


More:



> In one investment, the FNMF provided $1.8 million to Infinite Investments, who used that money to invest in Brigden Welding, which was owned by a former Sask Party MLA’s step-son. Four jobs were created, two of which went to Metis people. *The company is only required to pay back $250,000 of the $1.8 million government loan.*
> 
> Muskowekwan Resources Ltd. received a $3 million loan to invest in Encanto, a potash company. Over 250 jobs were promised, but zero were created. *The company is required to pay back only $300,000 of the $3 million loan.*


Bold mine.

I'm in the wrong business...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Warren Buffett's dropping of LNG project is a very big deal — because it hurts Quebec



> There is something special about Warren Buffett’s decision to pull the plug on a $4-billion investment in a liquefied natural gas (LNG) project in Canada.
> 
> ...
> 
> That’s what makes Berkshire Hathaway’s withdrawal from GNL Quebec’s $9-billion Energie Saguenay project so significant. Previous disappointments happened in provinces that tend to vote for Conservatives and occasionally New Democrats. Quebec is where Liberals get their votes. It’s how they stay in power. It’s what they care about most.
> 
> Without Quebec, Justin Trudeau wouldn’t still be prime minister. Without its solid support his father would never have lasted so long in the same office. Between them, Quebec and Ontario are the Liberal party’s bread and butter. Any time it loses the love of one or the other, it finds itself on the opposition benches. Liberals hate being on opposition benches, so they are very careful to accommodate themselves in every way possible to the whims of Quebec voters. There was a very good reason Trudeau bent himself into pretzelian configurations over the SNC-Lavalin scandal. Not, as he repeatedly said, to protect jobs. But to protect jobs in Quebec.


Related:

With Buffett's exit, those behind the real energy blockade can claim success



> Warren Buffett, the world’s most famous — and therefore most-listened to — financial mind cancelled his $4-billion injection into the $9-billion-plus Saguenay LNG project. Thus another Canadian project, with all its jobs, security of energy supply, and its promise to the whole economy in a jittery time, went down river because of militant Greenism. It’s not the immediate blockades and Indigenous tangle that brought it down. It resulted far more from the decade-long war, the relentless campaign to landlock Alberta oil by continuous protest on any new pipeline. It resulted, too, from the Liberal government’s insistence on its Green credentials.


Related, too:

Paris Agreement a Trojan Horse threatening the Canadian economy, national unity



> “Trees are remarkable,” said Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in a speech last fall. “They pull carbon out of the atmosphere. They are renewable and they’re sustainable and, eventually, they even recycle themselves. All we have to do is plant the first one.”
> 
> Plant the first one? Canada already has the third-largest forest coverage on the planet. What we have here is a prime minister who admires trees and promises (in that same speech) to plant two billion more within a decade.
> 
> *(This is all magical thinking. To meet that promise, 200 million seedlings a year would need to be planted — that’s 547,945 a day. Four months after the election, some 65.7 million trees should have been planted, but so far, not a twig.)*


Bold mine.

Well, with Prinz Dummkopf at the helm, we'll never have a shortage of fertilizer...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Related, 3:

Trudeau’s Indigenous rights law will cause ‘chaos,' study says



> The Trudeau government is poised to provoke more railway blockades, more economic damage to the country and “legal chaos” by passing legislation recognizing a United Nations declaration on Indigenous rights, warns a new study by the Fraser Institute.
> 
> Author Tom Flanagan says the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP) conflicts with Canadian constitutional law and *would give Indigenous groups across Canada a veto over any infrastructure projects crossing their territories.*


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

My tax $$$ at work...

Because For $63M, Taxpayers Deserve Better Than Plain Anodized Aluminum



> *The Arts:* A system whereby taxpayers help rich people decorate stepladders for their friends.


Going to have to apply for a 7 figure grant from Prinz Scheisse-Kopf and put the messy garage on display. I've got a wooden 2 step ladder with a home-made metal flat bar stiffener, a 4' _orange_ fibreglass and, _and,_ an 8' anodized aluminum! Imagine the composition!!! I could throw a worn out tire around the 2', drape a scrap piece of 2x4 off the 4' and drop a couple or three 8' fluorescent tubes on the concrete below the 8. Magical!

My lovely bride will be pleased we can make money off all my "art". Who knew?


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Dead Country Walking



> Canada is presently in the throes of social and political disintegration. A left-leaning electorate has once again empowered a socialist government promoting all the lunatic ideological shibboleths of the day: global warming or “climate change,” radical feminism, indigenous sovereignty, expansionary government, environmental strangulation of energy production, and the presumed efficiency of totalitarian legislation. Industry and manufacturing are abandoning the country in droves and heading south.
> 
> Canada is now reaping the whirlwind.​


Dead Country Walking II



> Hey, why not?
Click to expand...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Fukc you, Blackie...

Quebec to receive $13.2 billion in equalization payments while Alberta in midst of crisis



> While Premier Jason Kenney was in Ottawa seeking help from the federal government amidst a financial crisis that could cripple the Albertan economy, Quebec will be gifted $13.2 billion in equalization payments.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Again, close enough for gov't work.

And, under the watchful eye of Climate Bimbetta? Shocka...

Trudeau's Department of Infrastructure can't account for BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars



> Justin Trudeau's Department of Infrastructure, which is headed by the ever-controversial Catherine McKenna, cannot account for billions of taxpayer money, according to Blacklock’s Reporter.
> 
> Speaking at the Commons finance committee on Tuesday, The Parliamentary Budget Office said that they could not get the Department of Infrastructure to disclose how this taxpayer money has been used, sparking serious transparency concerns.
> 
> The Shadow Minister of Finance Pierre Poilievre was flabbergasted by this lack of accountability, saying “If I go to the grocery store and spend a small fortune on groceries, my wife says: ‘what the hell did you spend five hundred bucks on?’ She would expect to see a receipt.”
> 
> “You’re telling me the Government of Canada spends tens of billions of dollars on infrastructure but can’t give us an item by item list?” He added indignantly.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Which is one of the reasons why I wanted it to go on for six months or so.

TRAIN DRAIN: Illegal blockades cost Canada $275 MILLION in three weeks



> The Canadian Parliamentary Budget Officer has revealed through a report that the #ShutDownCanada rail blockades cost the Canadian economy $275 million over a few weeks.
> 
> The report cited the VIA Rail layoffs, port disruptions, and the number of passenger trips, as the main sources that particularly affected the economy. They also used similar historical events as a point of reference—such as the 2014 Port of Vancouver trucker strike and the 2008 Ottawa transit strikes.


----------



## SINC

*Frustrated with Trudeau government inaction, three provinces deploy officers to airports*

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/t...yuBH3DPPzDqWlAenLv1jcAbrsC-V4N1zrGpL78VWYb-dw


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Justin fixes the World...



> _...*Episode 49*...
> 
> "The government of Canada has *formally notified the United Nations that Canada's laws will not be in compliance with a treaty* meant to stop rich countries from shipping their hazardous waste to poor countries.
> 
> The *federal government's request for a delay* is the latest manifestation of a yawning gap between the Trudeau government's actions and its efforts to present itself as a leader on plastic waste and oceans."_


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further on PM Thocks thuddenly getting enough thcience...

Trudeau Closes Canada’s Border to Non-Citizens or Permanent Residents Over Coronavirus



> The coronavirus has forced Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to close the borders to all except a few people.
> 
> *But I thought closing borders is racist?*


Bold mine.

It is! That rotten, black-faced, reporter-groping, boob-elbowing, lying, post-national, progressive sonuvabitch is RACIS'!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau Rolls Out Massive Borrowing Package



> Liberal government suspends systematic destruction of the Canadian economy to announce emergency aid to the economy;
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has unveiled a sweeping $27-billion emergency aid package that offers immediate and direct help to Canadians and businesses, plus $55-billion in tax deferrals, to help them survive the severe economic downturn caused by the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> The massive stimulus package will inject cash into businesses to keep workers on the payroll even if they have been sent home and bolstering federal benefits and employment insurance programs.
> 
> “The measures we are announcing today will provide up to $27-billion in direct support to Canadian workers and businesses, plus $55-billion to meet liquidity needs for Canadian businesses and households through tax deferrals to help stabilize the economy,” he said. “This $82-billion in support represents more than 3 per cent of Canada’s GDP.”
> 
> The Prime Minister told a news conference that Ottawa is taking direct action to help Canadians who don’t qualify for employment insurance or don’t have access to paid sick leave.
> 
> “Our government will introduce the emergency care benefit which will provide money every two weeks to workers who have to stay home,” he said. “People will receive this benefit for 14 weeks for an amount comparable to the amount that would be paid through EI.”
> 
> The new benefit will apply to Canadians who fall ill and have to self-isolate, he said.​
> Nothing about the carbon tax, oddly enough.


A few salient comments:



> Yea…one can see the effect right away.
> 
> CAD is sitting at 0.69 USD and dropping like a stone. Every item we buy to survive will now cost more…and continue to rise in price as 90% of what we consume is imported.
> Way to go MORONS.
> Had you actually given a **** about the economy the past 5 years ..?
> 
> Each and every one of you Fking 338 Bits of Trough Feeding – Virtue Signalling – Climate Changing GARBAGE deserve a NOOSE.
> Reply
> 
> 1.
> ray says:
> March 18, 2020 at 1:15 pm
> 
> Blackie is throwing $82,000,000,000 in aid around. That’s 3% of our GDP.
> 
> Alberta oil worthless
> Our Canadian peso worthless
> Two flights incoming to Vancouver from China today. One last night into YYZ
> 
> But Justin is wonderful
> Trump is racist





> Trudeau has needed this agreement with Trump for weeks . *The BLOC put the boots to Turdo last night when the adopted The REBEL position on Roxham Road illegals. *When the Bloc shouted jump Shiny jumped. He finally chose the US over China — in the short term at least. Trump will have gotten everything he wanted .


Bold mine.

BINGO!!! I just figgered out Blackie's "science"...



> Furey at the Toronto Sun writes that Blackie recently gave China over 16 tons of medical supplies to fight their virus. Maybe the little moron can explain that to his loyal media.





> #
> 
> How much of that is going to line the pockets of LPC leadership?
> Their fingers are always sticky, even during the pandemic.
> Reply
> #
> jay says:
> March 18, 2020 at 12:46 pm
> 
> And of course there are no details so this is all off the cuff.
> Let the payoffs to their Liberals connections continue.


Yeppers.



> Three hundred million dollars to be poured into Indian reserves to fight the virus. New pickup trucks and flat screen TVs for everyone.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> Jack Mintz;
> 
> The good ship “Federal Budget” looks like it is about to hit the rocks. Expect a broken promise as the federal debt/GDP ratio rises with moribund growth in the first half of 2020.
> 
> What could also happen is something that we have not seen for some time: federal program spending outstripping revenues. This is called the primary (or operational) deficit when a government not only can’t cover debt interest payments (totalling $23.9 billion in 2018/9) but also its program expenses.
> 
> A primary deficit has not appeared since the fiscal years 2009/10 and 2010/11 when a severe global financial recession took place. For two decades prior to 2009, we had only federal primary surpluses. Even in the latter Mulroney years with a deep 1990-91 recession, Canada ran a primary surplus. *The real story was profligate spending during the Pierre Trudeau years resulting in a string of primary deficits starting in 1975/76 for over 12 years, even during robust growth years.* […]
> 
> And this looks to happen in 2020​


Bold mine.

I remember those years. 18% interest rates. NEP...


----------



## FUXL

Well lookie here...bailing out the hurtin' burtons! Hope the separatist bas tards don't see a penny.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...billion-dollar-bailout-of-oil-and-gas-sector/


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

So do I. The last thing I want is one thin dime from the Feds. They can go screw themselves. At the same time, I want to turn off the taps to everyone east & west of us, you included. And, _and_, no more supporting Kaybeck (or anyone else for that matter, you included) with our transfer payments. Screw all of ya. Let's see this POS country make it without Alberta...



FUXL said:


> Well lookie here...bailing out the hurtin' burtons! Hope the separatist bas tards don't see a penny.


----------



## FUXL

Well if it isn't the separatist fuc k face.

Hope y'all pay us back for bailing' you out. Again.


----------



## Macfury

What a beta male you are FUXL. Like the dog who gets beaten and then wags his tail when the perpetrator tosses him a biscuit. 



FUXL said:


> Well if it isn't the separatist fuc k face.
> 
> Hope y'all pay us back for bailing' you out. Again.


----------



## SINC

Feel more secure now?


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Things You’ll Never See On The CBC



> #CBC pulls local TV newscasts for first time since 1952 amid disastrous ratings & ad losses up to 75% in local markets. https://t.co/hgUGSkuQwK #cdnpoli @PresidentCBCRC @Brdcaster pic.twitter.com/fZFdCjEgJ6
> 
> — Blacklock's Reporter (@mindingottawa) March 19, 2020​
> So, good news for a change.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Fukc you, Juthdin...

He Admires Their Basic Dictatorship



> Because they can burn their economy down on a dime: _Emergency bill would grant cabinet sweeping powers to tax and spend without parliamentary approval through end of 2021_
> 
> Brian Lilley has more.
> 
> Related.
> 
> *Why has Canada already run out of basic medical equipment, like face masks? Because Trudeau sent it all to China as “foreign aid” just a few weeks ago.* Here’s his press release bragging about it: https://t.co/uuiVHKTNeM pic.twitter.com/BrnOUaxcRU
> 
> — Ezra Levant 🇨🇳🦠 (@ezralevant) March 24, 2020​


Bold mine.

On second thought, he should just go for it.

This is all the momentum Wexit needs...

Comments interesting, especially this one:



> I think this means the government would not have to bring a money bill before Parliament. The opposition parties would be unable to defeat the government and force an election.
> 
> I don’t think confidence votes on non money bills can force an election. Might be wrong.


Tangentially related:



> The ridiculous little tit was on the news tonight trying to act tough….probably the worst case of miscasting since Christopher Walken tried to play a mercenary in The Dogs of War.
> 
> The little tit lectured us about our unsafe traveling and mixing…that would be the same little tit who was away cooing with feminists when everyone else was starting to hunker down…the same little tit whose wife had jetted off to Europe at the same time.


I heard this earlier on the news. It was freaking hilarious. "You aren't bullet proof!" I could imagine people the country over, screaming at their radios, "Close down the airports & Roxham Road!!!"


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your Moral And Intellectual Superiors



> If you have a complaint to make, make it to the CBC ombudsman. But do not continue to make allegations here.
> 
> — Rosemary Barton (@RosieBarton) March 23, 2020​
> Wowza.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Unprecedented 500,000 jobless claims send Canada's labour market into freefall



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said half a million Canadians, or about 2.5 per cent of the labour force, have applied for jobless claims this week, smashing previous records and suggesting the nation is already in a deep recession.
> 
> Speaking outside his residence in Ottawa, Trudeau said Service Canada has received more than 500,000 applications this week, 20 times the number recorded in the same week a year ago. The Minister of Families, Children and Social Development’s office confirmed Trudeau was referring to applications for unemployment insurance.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Screw MotherCorpse.

Rex Murphy: Just when the CBC could really help Canadians, it lets them down



> The ability of the CBC to wound itself, to find ways to alienate its audience, reduce its impact, sometimes even drive viewers and listeners away from its services, is a fascinating subject. A subject, ironically, worthy of one of its multiple documentaries, which at one time were its hallmark.
> 
> We will never see such a documentary, for the CBC is constitutionally incapable of honestly assessing itself with any of the rigour and sometimes downright enthusiasm it turns its judgmental eye to on every subject but itself.
> 
> *I refer to CBC management’s fiat to close down all local supper-hour news shows.*


Bold mine.

I fail to see the problem.

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

This may be the accurate, succinct analysis I've read.

Justin Trudeau’s Canada Is Obama’s Dream for America



> Indeed, like the Obama of 57 states and the Austrian language, *Justin Trudeau is a full-blown ignoramus masking as an intellectual prodigy*. Former National Post and Walrus editor Jonathan Kay, who acted as an “editorial assistant” for Trudeau’s memoir Common Ground, swooned over his book-lined shelves. “Trudeau probably reads more than any other politician I know,” Kay fawned, even if his “boyish, eager-to-please personality leads him to project publicly in a way that can seem intellectually unsophisticated.” Trudeau is indeed intellectually unsophisticated -- not that there is anything wrong with that, but there is something wrong with pretending to know more than one does.


Bold mine.

Standing ovation...

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Chief Big Screen TV



> Best to think of it as a down payment: *Cabinet approves $240M Mohawk settlement for 132-year-old land claim*
> 
> Related!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

FROM THE COMMENTS:



> A billion here, a billion there... pretty soon you're talkin' real scratch...
> 
> _"Free dental too??? *I don’t get free dental* and I’ve been *paying into this system all my adult life.*"_​
> I'm simply gobsmacked... I can't even get a family doctor...
> 
> ...
> 
> But, don't worry, say the Liberals... there's a *20 year time limit* on this taxpayer largesse...
> 
> _ “*I truly believe the general public is unaware of this.*” said the whistleblower. “I was shocked when I learned about it, that we as taxpayers are paying for this kind of coverage, *and for that amount of time.*”_​


Links' bold.


----------



## SINC

Trudeau and the Liberals are desperately trying to stay in power with this terrible bill that gives them taxation without representation. With today's technology or even a god damn phone, parliament can easily be consulted without this bill. Hopefully, the NDP and Block will see through this charade and demand removal of any such powers. I would rather see the Liberals defeated in a non-confidence vote and a new coalition government be established immediately than see this asshole continue as our supposed leader. He is a traitor to and pox on Canada.


----------



## Macfury

I was embarrassed for Canada by his pathetic address to the nation.



SINC said:


> Trudeau and the Liberals are desperately trying to stay in power with this terrible bill that gives them taxation without representation. With today's technology or even a god damn phone, parliament can easily be consulted without this bill. Hopefully, the NDP and Block will see through this charade and demand removal of any such powers. I would rather see the Liberals defeated in a non-confidence vote and a new coalition government be established immediately than see this asshole continue as our supposed leader. He is a traitor to and pox on Canada.


----------



## FUXL

Yippie I eh, Yippie I oh.....https://ipolitics.ca/2020/03/23/sup...ntario-and-b-c-says-mainstreet-research-poll/

Hurtin' Albertin' Separatists need not apply.


----------



## Macfury

Federal Liberals... buyin' votes, since Confederation. Yeee-haw, beta male!



FUXL said:


> Yippie I eh, Yippie I oh.....https://ipolitics.ca/2020/03/23/sup...ntario-and-b-c-says-mainstreet-research-poll/
> 
> Hurtin' Albertin' Separatists need not apply.


----------



## FUXL

Hey Masta Beta! You can leave too.


----------



## SINC

Only Jimbo can continue to be misinformed for so long. Clueless and doesn't even know it.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Nice. You kiss your boyfriend with that mouth?

I know math is tough for Progs but here's a little exercise for ya: Add up the hundreds of billions this province has put into confederation and subtract from it everything the Feds have given back.

Come back with the answer & we'll talk about who owes whom how much.



FUXL said:


> Well if it isn't the separatist fuc k face.
> 
> Hope y'all pay us back for bailing' you out. Again.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Hopefully, the NDP and Block will see through this charade and demand removal of any such powers.


Not a chance. They'll be far too busy pork-barreling for their own constituents.


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo shames his family on a daily basis, so being called out here for being an a**hole is unlikely to affect him.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Jimbo shames his family on a daily basis, so being called out here for being an a**hole is unlikely to affect him.


Perhaps not, but it's _very_ therapeutic...


----------



## FeXL

Interesting.

Showing Up To Riot



> Why I am in the House today
> 
> Before I deny unanimous consent to the motion which will be introduced in the House of Commons today (and also to leave a record, in case the Government behaves responsibly and eliminates the need for me to do so), I think I ought to go onto the public record, explaining my reasons for denying my consent to the motion which will be presented today when the House begins its emergency sitting. I ought also to outline the changes which would have to be made, in order for me to give my consent.
> 
> Moreover, I need to explain why I turned up in the House of Commons at all today, despite a request from the Whips of all parties that their members stay away from the House of Commons, and notwithstanding the Prime Minister’s admonishment that Canadians “go home and stay home.” This second explanation will follow, after I have dealt with the first item.​
> @Kady has the legalities.


----------



## SINC

*Amid Economic Chaos, Trudeau’s Star Nearly Dark*

https://www.theamericanconservative...hDZeWkBjDj8e5MsLZBXYPI64RamqG6Ery4YsOoVYPKLjs


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Amid Economic Chaos, Trudeau’s Star Nearly Dark


Yet there are idiots who still think he has "nice har" & would vote for him...


----------



## FUXL

*Well lookie on here*

OooooWeeee hum diggity dawg!

Cominin from the mother ship you separatist bastards:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rbc-alberta-economic-forecast-severe-decline-1.5511032

With Canada bailing out, again, the tar sand people, what exactly do we get in return? 

What's that? A boxing match you say? Naw our well socked boy already whooped yo boi. Our well socked boy already beat the best you had in 2015.

I know I know! We can have a SUMO wrestling' match! Whadaya think? Traditional Japanese rules including loin cloths. *Kenny vs Ford.* My moneys' on Dougie!


----------



## Macfury

Hey Jimbo, must be hard to face the disrespect of your family 24/7 now that you're in quarantine!



FUXL said:


> OooooWeeee hum diggity dawg!
> 
> Cominin from the mother ship you separatist bastards:
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rbc-alberta-economic-forecast-severe-decline-1.5511032
> 
> With Canada bailing out, again, the tar sand people, what exactly do we get in return?
> 
> What's that? A boxing match you say? Naw our well socked boy already whooped yo boi. Our well socked boy already beat the best you had in 2015.
> 
> I know I know! We can have a SUMO wrestling' match! Whadaya think? Traditional Japanese rules including loin cloths. *Kenny vs Ford.* My moneys' on Dougie!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Hey Jimbo, must be hard to face the disrespect of your family 24/7 now that you're in quarantine!


Dunno why he bothers to post here. I suppose to continue to prove he's the country's biggest arsehole.


----------



## FUXL

Speakin' of Arseholes, UCP - We See Urine, from the province that brought us Eckville high: Tyler Shandro (probably another separatist bastard):

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...er-shandro-behaviour-vital-partners-1.5511288


----------



## Macfury

Tell your family about it Jimbo— at least they're already accustomed to suffering under your endless prating.



FUXL said:


> Speakin' of Arseholes, UCP - We See Urine, from the province that brought us Eckville high: Tyler Shandro (probably another separatist bastard):
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...er-shandro-behaviour-vital-partners-1.5511288


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Dunno why he bothers to post here.


Can you imagine how he's exhausted everyone in the small and diminishing circle of people who put up with him? This is all he has left.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Once again, your ignorance rears its dumb f'ing head.

First, we mine oil sand, not tar sand. Oil is the compound that keeps have not provinces like Ontario & Kaybeck afloat. Tar is that black $h!t between yer ears.

Second, as you are a Prog, I don't expect you to understand math but point 3 will explain it to you.

Point the third, from 2007-2015 _alone_ us Separatists donated greater than $220 billion to this $h!thole of a country than we received back. If BlackFace McGroper actually delivers on his promise & sends us a cheque, it's not only well-earned, but long overdue.

Fourth, the only thing holding this $h!thole of a country's finances together is cash coming from us Separatists. A little respect is due. After we're gone? Good luck...



FUXL said:


> With Canada bailing out, again, the tar sand people, what exactly do we get in return?


----------



## FUXL

*Tar Sands* you fuc kin goof of a separatist who doesn't know his own history. Who put the Eck in Eckville Jimmy?

"The Athabasca tar sands first came to the attention of European fur traders in 1719 when Wa-pa-su, a Cree trader, brought a sample of bituminous sands to the Hudson's Bay Company post at York Factory on Hudson Bay where Henry Kelsey was the manager. In 1778, Peter Pond, another fur trader and a founder of the rival North West Company, became the first European to see the Athabasca deposits after exploring the Methye Portage which allowed access to the rich fur resources of the Athabasca River system from the Hudson Bay watershed.[6]

In 1788, fur trader Alexander MacKenzie (who later discovered routes to both the Arctic and Pacific Oceans from this area) wrote: "At about 24 miles from the fork (of the Athabasca and Clearwater Rivers) are some bituminous fountains into which a pole of 20 feet long may be inserted without the least resistance. The bitumen is in a fluid state and when mixed with gum, the resinous substance collected from the spruce fir, it serves to gum the Indians' canoes." He was followed in 1799 by map maker David Thompson and in 1819 by British Naval officer John Franklin.[7]

John Richardson did the first serious scientific assessment of the tar sands in 1848 on his way north to search for Franklin's lost expedition. The first government-sponsored survey of the tar sands was initiated in 1875 by John Macoun, and in 1883, G.C. Hoffman of the Geological Survey of Canada tried separating the bitumen from oil sand with the use of water and reported that it separated readily. In 1888, Robert Bell, the director of the Geological Survey of Canada, reported to a Senate Committee that "The evidence ... points to the existence in the Athabasca and Mackenzie valleys of the most extensive petroleum field in America, if not the world."[6]

In 1926, Karl Clark of the University of Alberta received a patent for a hot water separation process which was the forerunner today's thermal extraction processes. Several attempts to implement it had varying degrees of success, but it was 1967 before the first commercially viable operation began with the opening of the Great Canadian Oil Sands (now Suncor) plant using surfactants in the separation process developed by Earl W. Malmberg of Sun Oil Company.

Tar sands production
Commercial production of oil from the Athabasca tar sands began in 1967, when Great Canadian Oil Sands Limited (then a subsidiary of Sun Oil Company but now incorporated into an independent company known as Suncor Energy) opened its first mine, producing 30,000 barrels of oil per day of synthetic crude oil.[8] Development was inhibited by declining world oil prices, and the second mine, operated by the Syncrude consortium, did not begin operating until 1978, after the 1973 oil crisis sparked investor interest.

However the price of oil subsided afterwards and although the 1979 energy crisis caused oil prices to peak again, during the 1980s, oil prices declined to very low levels causing considerable retrenchment in the oil industry. The third mine, operated by Shell Canada, did not begin operating until 2003. However, as a result of oil price increases since 2003, the existing mines have been greatly expanded and new ones are being planned.

According to the Alberta Energy and Utilities Board, 2005 production of crude bitumen in the Athabasca tar sands was as follows:

2005 Production	m3/day	bbl/day
Suncor Mine	31,000	195,000
Syncrude Mine	41,700	262,000
Shell Canada Mine	26,800	169,000
In Situ Projects	21,300	134,000
Total	120,800	760,000
As of 2006, output of tar sands production had increased to 1.126 million barrels of oil per day. tar sands were the source of 62% of Alberta's total oil production and 47% of all oil produced in Canada. The Alberta government believes this level of production could reach 3 million barrels of oil per day by 2020 and possibly 5 million barrels of oil per day by 2030.[9]"


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Don't care how big and black you make it. It's still oil sands. I live here, remember? And I have friends & relatives who have been working up in Ft Mac for years. None of them have ever called it "tar" sands. We extract oil from the sand, not tar, you Prog idiot.

Go back to your black gay pron sites & fantasize about your hero, Blackie BananaPants McGroper. The adults in the room are having a conversation...



FUXL said:


> *Tar Sands*


----------



## Macfury

Junior is showing how he can cut and paste to make his family proud!



FeXL said:


> Hello, Asshole.
> 
> Don't care how big and black you make it. It's still oil sands. I live here, remember? And I have friends & relatives who have been working up in Ft Mac for years. None of them have ever called it "tar" sands. We extract oil from the sand, not tar, you Prog idiot.
> 
> Go back to your black gay pron sites & fantasize about your hero, Blackie BananaPants McGroper. The adults in the room are having a conversation...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your Government Is Here For You



> Globe & Mail;
> 
> The federal government is shutting the doors to all of its 317 Service Canada Centres – where people can apply in person for employment insurance, Old Age Security, pension benefits and passports – on Friday after employees en masse refused to work.
> 
> The government bent to pressure Thursday evening from the Canadian Employment and Immigration Union, which represents 17,000 Service Canada employees, including 3,360 who staff the centres.
> 
> Many had called in sick or refused to work because they didn’t feel safe during the coronavirus pandemic, despite safe distancing measures put in place that kept the centres open, said Crystal Warner, executive vice-president with the union.​


Fire. Them. All.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

He don' need no steenkin' data



> Justin fixes the world by burning the Canadian economy to the ground...


More:



> Anyone who actually examines the data points quickly realises that the Prime Minstrel has *burned the Canadian economy to the ground* based on a provably false premise.
> 
> But, hey... nobody gets to be UN Secretary General by being proficient in math... *or truth-telling.*


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

DATELINE ONTARIO: Surprise, surprise...



> You can still get your all-too essential TruDope...
> 
> *DAVE'S NOT* (cough, cough) *HERE MAN:*
> 
> "*LCBO, Beer Store, cannabis retailers* will remain open amid 14-day closure of all non-essential businesses."​


Wouldn't want any of the heads to suffer withdrawal...


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Your Government Is Here For You
> 
> 
> 
> Fire. Them. All.


Yep, they are the very same people who will demand grocery store and health workers, and truck drivers too, stay open so they can feed themselves. Bastards!


----------



## FUXL

Separatists will be separatists. *Tarsanders* beware.


----------



## Macfury

Jimbo, aren't you embarrassed to be masturbating over political polls during a national health crisis? More than anything, this shows EhMac what you're made of.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Separatists will be separatists. *Tarsanders* beware.



Hard for tarsanders to comprehend, but there are actually fans of Trudeau and the Liberals in other provinces.


----------



## Macfury

Your use of the word "fans" says a lot about your post. A lot of truth in it.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Hard for tarsanders to comprehend, but there are actually fans of Trudeau and the Liberals in other provinces.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Your use of the word "fans" says a lot about your post. A lot of truth in it.



Your point being?


----------



## Macfury

What's left of Trudeau's popularity is based on a cult of celebrity.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Your point being?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> What's left of Trudeau's popularity is based on a cult of celebrity.


The only thing got got Prinz Dummkopf elected in the first place was his nice har & his last name. It sure as $h!t wasn't his life experience or his credentials...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> The only thing got got Prinz Dummkopf elected in the first place was his nice har & his last name. It sure as $h!t wasn't his life experience or his credentials...



You mean elected. And then re-elected. Beat out Andrew Scheer by a sizeable margin.


----------



## Macfury

Another Trudeau_ fan_!



Freddie_Biff said:


> You mean elected. And then re-elected. Beat out Andrew Scheer by a sizeable margin.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> You mean elected. And then re-elected. Beat out Andrew Scheer by a sizeable margin.


Wrong again. Actually more Canadians voted for Scheer than for Trudeau. It was seat distribution that tipped the scales to favour the Liberals while the Conservatives had a larger number of total votes. So much for your 'sizeable margin' comment.


----------



## SINC

Read this and weep.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> Wrong again. Actually more Canadians voted for Scheer than for Trudeau. It was seat distribution that tipped the scales to favour the Liberals while the Conservatives had a larger number of total votes. So much for your 'sizeable margin' comment.



It was a sizeable margin of seats. You go and hold onto your popular vote if it makes you feel better.


----------



## FeXL

You mean, just like the Progs did stateside with Bill's Wife in '16?



Freddie_Biff said:


> You go and hold onto your popular vote if it makes you feel better.


----------



## SINC

Freddie_Biff said:


> It was a sizeable margin of seats. You go and hold onto your popular vote if it makes you feel better.


I guess that flew right over your head? More Canadian voted for Scheer than Trudeau and that's a fact, seats be damned. That means a majority of Canadians wanted Trudeau gone. The seat distribution is tainted to suit the Liberals. The reality is that most Canadians are underrepresented by seat count when compared to Quebec and Atlantic Canada in particular.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

SINC said:


> I guess that flew right over your head? More Canadian voted for Scheer than Trudeau and that's a fact, seats be damned. That means a majority of Canadians wanted Trudeau gone. The seat distribution is tainted to suit the Liberals. The reality is that most Canadians are underrepresented by seat count when compared to Quebec and Atlantic Canada in particular.



Wrong again. The only ones who voted for either Scheer or Trudeau are the ones in their actual ridings. But you keep telling yourself that popular vote for the party is the most important thing. What’s important is that your party lost—big time.


----------



## FeXL

Blackface Bananapants Elbowgate McGroper and his cadre of Prog idiots held on by the skin of their teeth. How you 'splain a minority win as a big time loss is beyond me.

Vote of non-confidence, anyone?



Freddie_Biff said:


> What’s important is that your party lost—big time.


----------



## SINC

FeXL said:


> Vote of non-confidence, anyone?


In Freddie? Every time.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Justin Trudeau Gets Crushed Online After Suggesting Canadians Turn Off Lights, TV For ‘Earth Hour’ Amid Coronavirus Quarantine



> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau may be handling his own coronavirus pandemic, but he’s still committed to pursuing radical environmental policies and ingratiating himself to the global environmental elite.
> 
> Saturday night, while most Canadians sheltered at home, under “social distancing” order designed to slow the spread of the novel coronavirus, COVID-19, Trudeau suggested on social media that those sheltering in place turn off their electricity to save the planet.
> 
> “You’re already at home tonight, so why not unplug for #EarthHour at 8:30PM local time? Whatever you do tonight, #StayAtHomeAndStaySafe,” Trudeau tweeted.
> 
> His plan met with swift and crushing criticism on social media, as Twitter users pointed out how necessary fossil fuels have become in the fight against the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> “Turning off the ventilators to save the planet,” one user mocked.
> 
> “Unplugging my ventilator for #EarthHour, thank you Justin,” chortled another.


Our own Earth Hour celebrations went exactly as I planned yesterday: backyard bonfire, grilled steaks, lawn mower ran for 10 minutes, craft beer & all the house lights on. I even farted a couple times in his general direction.

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> In Freddie? Every time.


<snort>


----------



## FeXL

Can't be too damn hungry then...

Four immigrants [illegal aliens?] in Laval holding centre continue hunger strike



> Four men detained at the Laval Immigration Holding Centre continued a hunger strike for a fifth day on Saturday, in the hope of obtaining their release and getting medical attention to reduce their risk of COVID-19 contamination.
> 
> In a videoconference, a man from Senegal, who used the pseudonym Abdoul to maintain anonymity, reiterated his commitment to continuing the hunger strike despite what he qualified as pressure and intimidation tactics by some of the centre’s officials.


Can always go back to Senegal...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Crisis reveals divide over who gets paid at home



> Call it an unexpected side effect of the coronavirus crisis that has gripped Canada. We are about to see a class war break out if these social distancing measures keep people out of work and without pay.
> 
> I’m not talking about the old-fashioned class wars where the workers try to seize the means of production from their rich bosses; there won’t be any factory takeovers here.
> 
> *I’m talking about the bad blood that could soon develop between those private-sector workers being thrown out of work as the government shuts down all manner of businesses and public-sector workers sent home with pay.*


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Why the carbon tax is going up by 50% on April Fools Day...

Canada Keeps Up Push for UN Security Council Seat During Communist Chinese Virus Crisis – Because China needs another voice at the UN?



> The COVID-19 pandemic ended the secret handshakes and deal-making in the world’s power corridors, but Canada’s campaign for a temporary seat on the United Nations Security Council is full steam ahead.


Related:

The Libranos: YOU get a yacht! and YOU get a yacht!



> 16 Comments
> 
> To help secure a seat, Canada be expected to give ‘several hundred million’ to the African Union
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic ended the secret handshakes and deal-making in the world’s power corridors, but Canada’s campaign for a temporary seat on the United Nations Security Council is full steam ahead.
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne and International Development Minister Karina Gould confirmed the continuing campaigning in separate interviews with The Canadian Press this past week. […]
> 
> Champagne and Gould say that Canada’s international stature has grown because of its response to the COVID-19 outbreak, which so far includes a $50-million foreign aid package, but some ex-diplomats say Canada needs to spend more in that area to win votes.​
> Related: YOU get a cottage! (Not you, commoner).
> 
> Update: Now is not the time for math.
> 
> Reporter: “PM, do you have an estimate for costs of wage subsidy?”
> 
> Trudeau: *puts Blue Steel eyes on, stares at camera, and repeats his talking points…*
> 
> *“Prudent fiscal decisions in past years allows us to spend now.”*
> 
> Awkward pause.
> 
> Reporter: “do you have a ballpark?” 🙄😂
> 
> — HoCStaffer (@HoCStaffer) March 30, 2020​


Bold mine.

Is _that_ what you call it?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

I jes' luvs me a PM with a sense of Ha-Ha...


----------



## FUXL

Thank goodness Sophie has survived Covid. Such a wonderful family. Canadians love you Sophie!


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Justin Trudeau Gets Crushed Online After Suggesting Canadians Turn Off Lights, TV For ‘Earth Hour’ Amid Coronavirus Quarantine
> 
> 
> 
> Our own Earth Hour celebrations went exactly as I planned yesterday: backyard bonfire, grilled steaks, lawn mower ran for 10 minutes, craft beer & all the house lights on. I even farted a couple times in his general direction.
> 
> :clap::clap::clap:



Sorry I missed it. Had intended to turn on every light in the house.


----------



## Macfury

Bet you wish your own family thought as highly of you, Jimbo!



FUXL said:


> Thank goodness Sophie has survived Covid. Such a wonderful family.


----------



## FUXL

The original separatist slayer. Trudeau 1.


----------



## SINC

Matches the profile pic perfectly.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Kaybeck didn't have a case. Alberta does.

As far as this so-called bailout is concerned, I'd rather we kept our $12 billion and he could shove the $2.95 he plans to exchange it with right where the sun don't shine.

You know. Where your head usually is... :lmao::lmao::lmao:



FUXL said:


> The original separatist slayer. Trudeau 1.


----------



## FUXL

*M'bold!* Separatist scum beware. From today’s Globe and Mail behind paywall y’all. 

Max Fawcett is a freelance writer and a former editor of Alberta Oil magazine and Vancouver magazine

Desperate times call for desperate measures, and right now the Premier of Alberta sounds very desperate. At a provincial pandemic briefing Friday, Jason Kenney floated the idea of a closed North American energy market – one that deliberately shuts out foreign suppliers and explicitly targets barrels coming from the two countries that triggered the latest oil price war. “We cannot allow the Saudis and Russians to effectively run us out of the business of producing energy,” Mr. Kenney said.

It’s easy to see why the prospect of Alberta and Texas squaring off against Saudi Arabia and Russia would appeal to Mr. Kenney. He has built his political reputation in the province on his willingness to fight, whether it’s with his partisan political opponents or groups such as teachers, doctors and public servants. The prospect of Alberta saddling up alongside the United States in a battle against rogue international regimes, meanwhile, is the fullest expression yet of Ezra Levant’s “ethical oil” argument – one to which Mr. Kenney has returned repeatedly.

*Unfortunately, the math simply doesn’t add up.* In 2018, Canada imported less than 110,000 barrels of Saudi oil per day, while America’s imports of Saudi oil have fallen from more than 1.5 million barrels per day in 2014 to as few as 352,000 last November.

More importantly, both Canada and the United States still have ambitions of becoming major exporters of oil and gas. Shell is building an LNG facility in Northern British Columbia, and the federal government intends to complete the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion and get Alberta crude to tidewater. The U.S., meanwhile, could have six LNG export facilities up and running by the end of 2020, along with a growing array of infrastructure that has allowed it to boost its oil export capacity to more than six million barrels per day.

Russia and Saudi Arabia are major players in the global natural gas and oil markets – and both would almost certainly react badly to having their exports hit with tariffs or outright bans. In its IPO filing, state oil company Saudi Aramco boasted lifting costs (the cost of getting oil out of the ground) of US$2.80 per barrel, a small fraction of what it costs in Canada or the U.S., while Russia’s are now lower still thanks to the falling ruble.

Does anyone seriously expect, then, that the U.S. would be willing to get into a protracted price war with these two countries – or that it would potentially jeopardize its own economic interests to protect Alberta’s?

*More to the point, the blame for this price war belongs as much to North America as it does to the Middle East and Russia.* For more than three years, OPEC countries and Russia have been cutting their production to support prices, only to watch as Canadian and U.S. companies rushed to fill the gap that created. Between February of 2017 and 2020, oil production in the U.S. increased almost 50 per cent. And for all the talk of Alberta’s oil and gas industry being constrained by a dearth of pipelines, it still managed to increase production by 15 per cent over the same period. As such, the decision by Saudi Arabia and Russia to stop cutting their production is less a reckless attack on free enterprise than an inevitable reaction to the fact that other countries kept increasing theirs.

There is some logic to an alliance between Alberta and the U.S., but only if it’s a truly defensive one. On Friday, Mr. Kenney suggested that a co-ordinated cut in production could be in order, an idea that’s increasingly popular down in Texas, where a 10-per-cent reduction has already been mooted by state regulators. If they offer a deep enough combined cut, it might be enough to get Russia and Saudi Arabia to stand down – and perhaps even offer up a cut of their own to help oil markets recover from the disastrous impact of the pandemic.

*But make no mistake: This would be a form of surrender – and a sobering reminder of how vulnerable Alberta’s economy is to forces it cannot control.* The government’s “war room” – which is ostensibly meant to address misperceptions about the oil sands and is apparently exempt from the budgetary concerns that drove the government to lay off as many as 25,000 teacher assistants and support workers – can come up with all the fact sheets and Facebook memes in the world, but none of them will have any impact on the provincial oil and gas industry’s real foes.

Now, more than ever, it’s time for Alberta to stop picking fights and start coming to terms with the new reality it faces. Oil and gas will continue to fuel the global economy for decades to come, but the competitive pressure between countries who want to supply it will only continue to grow.

Rather than continuing to place all its bets on that industry’s future, it’s time for Alberta to start spreading them out – before it’s too late.


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^^^

Hawww! He's cutting and pasting because he has no mental context for the material!


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Hawww! He's cutting and pasting because he has no mental context for the material!


Not to mention the entirely amateur attempt at emphasis.


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Not to mention the entirely amateur attempt at emphasis.


And the fact that The Asshole hasn't figgered out how to hotlink...

In addition, of course, to at least a half dozen questionable points, not the least of which is the claim that Blackie BananaPants McGroper actually intends to complete TM.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Now Is The Time At SDA When We Juxtapose!



> March 31, 2020: _On Tuesday, March 31, President Trump is expected to issue final rules rolling back the fuel-efficiency standards set during the Obama administration_
> 
> April 1, 2020: _*CARBON TAX STILL GOING UP: Set to increase 50% despite global pandemic*_
> 
> Related: MPs, *who fled Ottawa over concerns about COVID-19 on March 13, will pocket a pay raise on April 1…*


Bold mine.

Nice...

Getting what they voted for, good & hard.

Related:

Kevin O'Leary aka Mr. Wonderful



> Is there a single government on earth raising taxes on its people by 50% at a time of #CronaVirus #pandemic and economic collapse? Yes its happening in #Canada where Prime Minister @JustinTrudeau
> is telling his subjects "Let Them Eat Cake" You know what happens next.


Related, too:

Good! :clap::clap::clap:

The faster this Banana Republic hits the skids under BananaPants Blackface McGroper, the faster we get Wexit.

Liberals to run $113B deficit in 2021 with economy poised for stomach-churning plunge: PBO



> The Liberal government is set to run a $112.7-billion deficit in 2021 as it seeks to combat the economic fallout from the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new report, with the Canadian economy poised to take a stomach-churning plunge later this year.
> 
> A new report by the Parliamentary Budget Office expects the Canadian economy to contract by 25 per cent in the second quarter of 2020. Annual economic growth in 2020 is expected to slide to negative 5.1 per cent — a bigger yearly contraction than the 2008 financial crisis, and the sharpest plunge since the early 1960s. The $112.7-billion deficit is nearly $90 billion higher than earlier estimates.
> 
> Unemployment is expected to rise to 15 per cent, according to PBO projections.


----------



## FeXL

Fast enough for gov't work. After all, you don't expect them to take their new raises after they bailed early and actually come back & earn them, do you?

Tommy Douglas, Not Dead Enough



> Health Canada is expected to approve the use of the rapid test kits *within a few weeks.*


Bold mine.

But...but...but...ORANGEMANBAD!!!


----------



## eMacMan

Seems that The Trudope was not content to destroy almost all of the small businesses in our little town now we have this:
https://www.princegeorgecitizen.com...4-000-troops-for-covid-19-minister-1.24108930



> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan later revealed Ottawa is ready to mobilize up to 24,000 Canadian troops to help deal with the COVID-19 pandemic. That represents about a quarter of the entire force and would be one of the largest peacetime mobilizations in Canadian history.
> 
> Those on standby include 10 Canadian Army units as well as Navy ships and Air Force aircraft and crew. Reservists and Canadian Rangers are also being put on notice, Sajjan said, with the Rangers ready to conduct patrols to northern and Indigenous communities.


One very likely translation of all that gobbeldy **** is tanks in the streets and on the reserves. I'm sure The Trudopes Chinese comrades will be extremely proud. 

EDIT: Wow three sojer boyz for every confirmed case of Corona in Canada.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

I Want A New Country



> Because this one is officially _done._
> 
> DISCLOSED YESTERDAY: *Cabinet granted itself power to borrow $350,000,000,000 – more than entire fed budget.* Approved in Bill C-12 passed by MPs in 15 minutes without reading legal text. https://t.co/DTKqGEPq1P @Bill_Morneau @FinanceCanada @markstrahl #covid19Canada #cdnpoli pic.twitter.com/dwEXOH48Jw
> 
> — Holly Doan (@hollyanndoan) April 1, 2020​


Bold mine.

So, question for those of you who have been critical of Trump's spending: Where's the hue & cry? 

And, for those of you who have no issues with this, congratulations!!! Your children's & grand-children's future has just been put into hock. Getting what you voted for, good & hard.

Have fun paying it back without Alberta...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> I Want A New Country
> 
> 
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> So, question for those of you who have been critical of Trump's spending: Where's the hue & cry?
> 
> And, for those of you who have no issues with this, congratulations!!! Your children's & grand-children's future has just been put into hock. Getting what you voted for, good & hard.
> 
> Have fun paying it back without Alberta...


Banksters are grinning from ear to ear, and laughing all the way to their vaults. Far better just to let people get back to doing their jobs, than this determined rush to create a total globalist welfare state. Applies to both sides of the 49th. 

Even if this lock down saves 1000 lives in Canada, that comes out at $350 Million dollars per life. I suspect that 1000 is high by a factor of 10 and the actual cost will be over $3 Billion$/life saved. No way to really know.

Not only that but every time a Corona, Rhino or Flu virus mutates we can count on the globalist scum jumping at the opportunity to further their globalist totalitarian goals, always at our personal expense.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> I suspect that 1000 is high by a factor of 10


The Netherlands, with half our population, has over 1,000 deaths in total, and over 100 in the last day. The UK, with not quite double our population, had over 500 deaths in the past 24 hours. New York state, with about two thirds of our population, has had 1,900 deaths, over 200 of which were in the last day.

Letting the virus freely run through our population would be risking a lot more than 1,000. Only 1,000 deaths would be a successful scenario.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

BTW, Happy Carbon Tax Day to all Canucks!!!

The 50% increase is brought to you by our very own Gropenfuhrer McBananaPants in the middle of a pandemic & highlighted with the acid of a fresh MP raise poured on the wound...

Enjoy, suckers!

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## eMacMan

Beej said:


> The Netherlands, with half our population, has over 1,000 deaths in total, and over 100 in the last day. The UK, with not quite double our population, had over 500 deaths in the past 24 hours. New York state, with about two thirds of our population, has had 1,900 deaths, over 200 of which were in the last day.
> 
> Letting the virus freely run through our population would be risking a lot more than 1,000. Only 1,000 deaths would be a successful scenario.


Lets see The UK has ~17,000 flu related pulmonary deaths annually. This despite aggressive vaccination programs. There are also about 2000 auto crash deaths and 30,000 serious injuries every year. 

From this I have to infer that you would demand the UK incarcerate its entire population during every flu season and totally ban them from driving anywhere. Of course public transit should also be shut down as it is unnecessary if people are forced to stay home and not allowed to work for a living.

Not sure about Opioid related deaths but I presume those are OK as they help line the wallets of Big Pharma execs.


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> Lets see The UK has ~17,000 flu related pulmonary deaths annually. This despite aggressive vaccination programs. There are also about 2000 auto crash deaths and 30,000 serious injuries every year.
> 
> From this I have to infer that you would demand the UK incarcerate its entire population during every flu season and totally ban them from driving anywhere. Of course public transit should also be shut down as it is unnecessary if people are forced to stay home and not allowed to work for a living.
> 
> Not sure about Opioid related deaths but I presume those are OK as they help line the wallets of Big Pharma execs.


As you point out, there are flu vaccines. There's a reason they aggressively promote them. More would die without them, and corona virus has a higher hospitalization rate, which would lead to triage, as well as a higher mortality rate under normal conditions (ie. not triage). You're off by an order of magnitude on the risk of treating this like just the flu.

Auto crash deaths are not viral. If they suddenly shot up tenfold in one year, you would see big changes, beyond the billions already spent on reducing loss of life.

Your inferences are, of course, wrong. As is your suspicion that this may be about +/- 100 or so deaths in Canada. Louisiana, population about 10% more than Alberta's, already has over 200 deaths. You're off by two orders of magnitude in this lower case.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau’s failed power grab an attack on democracy



> The Trudeau government’s effort to transfer power temporarily from the House of Commons to the Office of the Finance Minister was an unconstitutional attempt to bypass the will of Canadians as expressed in the 2019 election. By stopping them, the opposition parties have done great service to the country.


----------



## FeXL

Sooner or later ya run out of other people's money...

That Which Cannot Go On Forever



> Will stop.


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Meanwhile, down at the Quickie Mart...



> ...not enforcing *the law of the land* just encourages all those other *"new entrepreneurs"*...
> 
> _ Police say they have shut down* a makeshift store in Markham where alcohol and cannabis products were being sold illegally* inside a commercial unit on Royal Crest Court.
> 
> *Anil Anand*, a 56-year-old Brampton man, and Ramandeep Singh, a 28-year-old Toronto resident, have been charged with keeping, selling, or offering liquor for sale. *Bill Tsetsekas*, a 56-year-old Markham man, has been charged with possession of cannabis for the purpose of distribution._​
> I guess these guys aren't *the right kind* of Indian... you know... the *"grappling"* kind...


----------



## CubaMark

*Canadian government takes over App Store’s ‘Today’ page to share COVID-19 app*










If you open your iPhone’s App Store on April 4th, you may see a familiar message from Canada’s federal government: “Help flatten the curve.” Essentially, it looks like the government took advantage of Apple’s 2017 App Store redesign, which saw the introduction of a curated ‘Today’ feed. That feed highlights apps and games to users, a helpful tool when navigating the vast number of apps on the platform.

Read more at MobileSyrup.com: Canadian government takes over App Store’s ‘Today’ page to share COVID-19 app

(MobileSyrup)​


----------



## Macfury

I'm not sure what the story is here CM. That the government bought the ad space?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I'm not sure what the story is here CM. That the government bought the ad space?


They'll probably fill it with another lecture from that two-faced, lying Liberal bitch, Tams...


----------



## FUXL

Hhmmm dawgie Justin (no not the PM) from the conservative paper - *25% unemployment*! How many separatists from the land of *Eckville* are applying for CERB? Traitors should live up to their principles.

https://business.financialpost.com/...ts-25-alberta-unemployment-rate-from-covid-19


----------



## Macfury

Your post is incoherent, FUXL. At least meet the minimal standards of clarity expected on ehMac.


----------



## SINC

He simply demonstrates his intelligence with each post.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

1. How many Alberta separatists have more than paid for the lousy coupla grand your proud Blackface McGropenfuher is tossing out to buy votes with dozens of times over? Every damn one of us. As I've noted: give us back our $12 billion in transfer payments this year. You can keep your pocket change...

2. Traitor? The iron... I think you need to look up that definition again. While you've got your search engine turned on, you may wish to research the separatist movement in the _major_ province of Kaybeck.

3. Why is Blackie now in his 26th day of a 14 day isolation? Did he climb out from under the bed & see his shadow today? Askin' for a friend...



FUXL said:


> How many separatists from the land of Eckville are applying for CERB? Traitors should live up to their principles.


----------



## eMacMan

Let's see. Idiots in Otterwar put 1/4 of our already hard hit provincial workforce out of work, and some dumb ass says we should not try to get some of our own money back to try and survive???

Have seen US calculations that a 1% increase in unemployment can cost anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 lives. So a 20% increase in Alberta will translate to a minimum of 5000 premature deaths.

Pretty sure even worst case Corona will come nowhere close to claiming that many lives in Alberta.


----------



## FeXL

They don't care.

It's <spit> Alberta...


----------



## FUXL

Build the Wall! Build the Wall! -

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/east-koo...tial-travel-between-alberta-and-b-c-1.4887975

All Hat, No Cattle, billy-bob.


----------



## Macfury

Speak English, FUXL (is your family sick of you yet?).


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

That'd suit me just fine.

And, while there are many in the East Kootenay's who identify with us separatists in Albertistan, at least it would keep the west coast Progs out.



FUXL said:


> Build the Wall! Build the Wall!


----------



## FUXL

Yep...common sense to isolate the separatist bas tards. Posted in whole to get around the paywall.

It was only a few weeks ago that Alberta’s independence movement – Wexit – was full of vim and vigour.
New members signed up by the thousands after the October federal election which delivered a minority government for Justin Trudeau’s Liberals while completely shutting them out in Alberta and Saskatchewan.
In early November 700 people packed a dance hall in Edmonton to vent their fury against the federal government which they blamed for all the province’s economic troubles.
“We will not allow ourselves to be divided. We’re going to make Alberta great again, and that is when we cut ourselves off from the leech that is Eastern Canada,” said Wexit founder Peter Downing, sporting a blue “Make Alberta Great Again” ball cap.
But while at the time the thought of running away from home may have been emotionally satisfying for Wexiteers it may not seem like such a good idea in the face of a pandemic.
Who knows how much money will eventually pour into Alberta over the next few months, given Trudeau’s plans for significant wage subsidies, income guarantees, Employment Insurance, and government-backed loans designed to buoy people and businesses hit hard by the shutdown of the economy?
But one thing is for sure: an Alberta government would never have been able to mount that kind of disaster relief.
And given that the price of western Canada’s particular brand of oil (Western Canada Select which is heavy on bitumen content) is under $5 a barrel thanks to the Russians and the Saudis flooding the market, how would this Alberta government raise revenue? By hiking taxes?
And what if the newly independent state of Alberta was not part of the Canadian health care system? Would doctors actually want to practice in Alberta? Wouldn’t a lot of them leave for other provinces? They are already embittered given that the UCP government has been waging war with them even as they strain to deal with COVID-19. 
Would independent Alberta be able to acquire desperately needed medical masks and equipment without the added weight of a much more powerful level of government? 
Would 3M be inclined to listen to Alberta if it ran out of much-needed masks?
And if Indigenous and remote communities in the northern part of the province needed the help of the military to establish field hospitals who would Alberta call on?
For some rabid Wexiteers the pandemic has only strengthened their conviction that the federal government is out to deliberately destroy Alberta. 
As in this ridiculous Tweet posted by Downing, a former RCMP officer and Wexit’s head honcho, right after schools and child care centres were closed in Alberta: “If Alberta shuts down schools and daycares, just about every parent has to stay home from work to care for their kids.... SHUTTING DOWN our Economy. Just like the Feds want. The “Climate change” scare failed. Don’t fall for the new scare.”
Downing is a fan of Donald Trump’s approach to the pandemic, which makes no sense at all given that the death rate in the U.S is four times per capita than what it is in Canada.
The Wexit spokesman is even advising people to get a prescription for hydroxychloroquine, the medication that Trump keeps promoting as a cure for COVID-19 even though there is no evidence of its effectiveness against the virus but there are clearly serious side effects. 
That kind of promotion via social media may have been one of the reasons why Alberta’s Chief Medical Officer, Deena Hinshaw, last week made a point of warning doctors and pharmacists not to prescribe it as a treatment for COVID-19.
There’s no question that the vast majority of Albertans are more than a little worried about the future given the combination of the pandemic and the crash in oil prices. 
Premier Kenney has warned it will be as severe as the Great Depression of the 1930s. 
Alberta is going to need plenty of grit, innovative thinking, and wise action if the province is to gain a foothold and start pulling itself up from the abyss.
Exploiting the fear and insecurity that abounds with fanatical ideas about Alberta going it alone, as Downing and his gang are doing, is the last thing we need. 

Gillian Steward is a Calgary-based writer and freelance contributing columnist. Follow her on Twitter: @GillianSteward


----------



## SINC

No comment needed here.



> *Trudeau's tone deaf COVID-19 approach will give more fuel to Wexit*
> 
> Overall, Prime Minister Trudeau’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic has been sufficient at best, having considered the advice of medical experts amidst trying economic times. However, Trudeau and the Liberals have made some significant errors in their response to the pandemic, exacerbating frustration amongst western Canadians in particular.
> 
> Firstly, Wexit will benefit rhetorically from every misuse of federal power during the pandemic. It will support their claim that the federal government is both too powerful, and not representative of the Western priorities.
> 
> At this time, Canadians want stability and consistency, but with Trudeau’s delayed response to closing our borders, the pandemic response started poorly at the onset. For example, the Liberals have begun to screen those getting on domestic flights and trains for COVID-19 but have refused to stop international flights or even test those boarding or disembarking.
> 
> Federal health officials released a report early February that they could not enforce quarantine orders on those returning from the Hubei province of China, where Wuhan is its capital.
> 
> Trudeau, unlike US President Donald Trump, has resisted calling out the Communist Party of China (CCP) for their coverup of COVID19 in Wuhan and instead has taken reports from China at face value despite evidence to the contrary.
> 
> Similarly, when Prime Minister Trudeau announced that the US-Canada border would be closed, the Minister of Public Safety then came out and announced that the illegal border crossing at Roxham Road would stay open. The Liberals later reversed that recent decision, but there is little evidence that the Roxham Road crossing has been closed to new illegal migrants.
> 
> This means fewer problems for illegal migrants crossing the Canadian border to claim asylum rather than for an American or a Canadian to legally cross into the other country for any reason at all.
> 
> Although the Liberals lose control of illegal immigration on March 24th, they planned to give Finance Minister Bill Moreau sweeping executive powers to increase existing, and implement new taxes, at will for two years until that clause had to be amended out of the Emergency Response Act due to public outrage.
> 
> What is especially problematic for western Canadians was the Liberal's continued pursuit of the carbon tax hike. While in the middle of a pandemic where many find themselves unemployed, the Liberals did not think to even delay the 50 percent carbon tax increase despite the fact it will increase prices on store shelves and not just at the pump making rebates only reduce the damage it will cause.
> 
> When President Trump blocked M95 masks needed by medical workers from being shipped into Canada, Trudeau protested but took no substantial action to dissuade the American government from withholding the supplies.
> 
> The pattern here is the federal Liberal government putting the most stringent and burdensome costs onto Canadian citizens while mainly allowing illegal migrants and foreign governments not to suffer any of the consequences of their actions.
> 
> It doesn’t matter if Trudeau and the Liberals have been having a generally decent pandemic response if they keep making completely needless mistakes and or power grabs that show an ignorance of the needs of the average Canadian.
> 
> Wexit as a movement is predicated on the distrust of the federal government and their seeming favouritism of come provinces over others. The Liberals embolden this feeling even more when during a pandemic, Canadians are seen to be valued lower than everything foreign.
> 
> When all is taken into account, it is not hard to see why many Western Canadians would want to be in charge of their affairs as the federal government seems to be entirely ignorant of Western interests on top of not even looking to be able to adequately protect them or ease of their wallets during a global pandemic.
> 
> If the federal Liberal government wants to reduce separatist sentiments represented by Wexit, it would be best for them to begin to legislate as if they needed Western approval to stay in power. The politician mathematics that has convinced the Liberals they can entirely ignore provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan is not at all healthy in the long run.


https://thenationaltelegraph.com/op...IuE_3fVf6xdqq8mvuPIBtgeRPnJ0Ezr8tOC1EMjo4vIME


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Once again, your argument (and whatever the hell a Gillian Stewart is...) comes apart at the seams at first blush.

Watch my lips: Alberta has paid well over $200 _billion_ more into this $h!thole of a country than what we've received back. In addition, Pere's NEP cost us an additional $60 billion to $100 billion.

Do you really think the pocket change we're going to get from Blackface Bananapants Elbowgate McGropenfuhrer is going to come anywhere close to that?

_HA!!!_

Tell ya what, Mr. Numbers: You keep track of all the money that actually arrives in Alberta over the next 6 months. Let me know when it hits $1 billion, let alone $300 billion...

And you _still_ don't know how to hotlink.

In addition, The Dickhead still has done nothing, nada, for small business _owners_. Oh, sure. He promises, every time he crawls out from under the security of his bed at Rideau Cottage & sees his shadow (What is it? 28 days into his 14 day isolation now? Brave boy!!!). I'll believe it when I see it.



FUXL said:


> Who knows how much money will eventually pour into Alberta over the next few months, given Trudeau’s plans for significant wage subsidies, income guarantees, Employment Insurance, and government-backed loans designed to buoy people and businesses hit hard by the shutdown of the economy?


----------



## FUXL

*PST PST PST PST - Burta bound*

My guess is your wide girth premier will not call it PST but it'll be ARF (Alburta Recovery Fee) .
Separatists gonna cry!

https://globalnews.ca/news/6794520/kenney-economic-answers-covid-19/


----------



## Macfury

Are you drunk or high? Has your family finally banished you to the basement until you get clean and sober? 



FUXL said:


> My guess is your wide girth premier will not call it PST but it'll be ARF (Alburta Recovery Fee) .
> Separatists gonna cry!
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6794520/kenney-economic-answers-covid-19/


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Proving what? That our politicians are just as stupid as those across the rest of the country? Quelle surprise.

We wouldn't be in nearly as deep of a hole if your Prog goddess, Red Rachel, hadn't screwed up our finances as bad as Ontariowe's in the first place.

Speaking of wide girth premiere's...



FUXL said:


> My guess is your wide girth premier will not call it PST but it'll be ARF (Alburta Recovery Fee) .


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FeXL said:


> Hello, Asshole.
> 
> Proving what? That our politicians are just as stupid as those across the rest of the country? Quelle surprise.
> 
> We wouldn't be in nearly as deep of a hole if your Prog goddess, Red Rachel, hadn't screwed up our finances as bad as Ontariowe's in the first place.
> 
> Speaking of wide girth premiere's...



Asshole now? And unprovoked too. 

Hypocrite.


----------



## Macfury

Certainly not a hypocrite. FeXL has never asked anyone to police their language here.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Asshole now? And unprovoked too.
> 
> Hypocrite.


----------



## FUXL

Yep, you separatist horn puppies, great idea screwing the medical profession during a pandemic. UCP/We See Urine.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/albe...nce-in-bid-to-re-start-contract-negotiations/


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Certainly not a hypocrite. FeXL has never asked anyone to police their language here.


Freddie forgets that it was he who began the whole asshole thing, kinda like his much maligned math skills.

Noting that, I fully approve of its use to aptly describe Ol' Jimbo.


----------



## SINC

FUXL said:


> Yep, you separatist horn puppies, great idea screwing the medical profession during a pandemic. UCP/We See Urine.
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/albe...nce-in-bid-to-re-start-contract-negotiations/


Do try and keep up with Alberta current events, Jimbo.

The outrage from Albertans about this has been raging for weeks now. This is nothing Albertans approve of nor want it to be continued. Calls for the health minister's firing are rampant.

Yer way behind in your criticisms. Of course, that remains par for the course for most of the disillusioned crap you post.


----------



## FeXL

Asshole since the day the doctor slapped his face thinking it was his arse.

As to unprovoked, those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it...



Freddie_Biff said:


> Asshole now? And unprovoked too.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Yet your silence on the Feds screwing the entire population of Canuckistan during a pandemic and concomitant record unemployment is stunning. Carbon tax up by 50% and an MP pay raise, anyone? Happy April Fool...



FUXL said:


> Yep, you separatist horn puppies, great idea screwing the medical profession during a pandemic.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

I want this to be implemented in every province that voted Liberal.

Trudeau Tries To Grab More Power, Premiers Reject Irresponsible Move !



> When BC socialist Premier John Horgan reacts with an ‘expletive ‘ you know things are gone off the rails.
> 
> Even State owned CBC headlined this story——explained the powers in the Act. :


Give the bastards what they voted for, good & hard!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

So, the Gropenfuhrer crawled out from under his bed, saw his shadow again today & graced us with more Prog logic & sense.

This, too, needs be implemented immediately. Ontariowe & Kaybeck, here it comes. Financially bust every business owner and every wage earner who voted for The Dope. Finish turning this $h!thole of a country into the Banana Republic the Progs are converting it into. Ya, it's going to take some innocent casualties but the Lieberals will never get elected again. When we hit Venezuela levels of stupidity, maybe, just maybe, the bastards will grab a clew & toss Boy Wonder out.

Do it, Juthdin!!! You haven't alienated enough of us yet.

No return to ‘normality’ until coronavirus vaccine is available, Trudeau says



> Canadians won’t be able to return to life as they knew it before the novel coronavirus pandemic until a vaccine is available, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Thursday.
> 
> “*Normality as it was before will not come back full-on until we get a vaccine for this*… That will be a very long way off,” the prime minister said during his daily news conference on Canada’s response to the COVID-19 outbreak.
> 
> “We will have to remain vigilant for at least a year,” he added in French.


Bold mine.

We don't want your definition of _normal,_ idiot...

h/t SDA, comments salient.

Related:

Papers, Please ONT



> People, what the **** are we doing? More to the point, what the **** are we allowing to be done to us? Why in the hell are we putting up with this police state that is being imposed upon us in the name of “saving lives”?


Related, too:


----------



## FeXL

Hey, Asshole!

Once again Albertistan bails out the Proggies. If it ain't hundreds of billions of $$$, it's equipment.

Yer welcome...

And It Still Won’t Get Him A Single Mile Of Pipeline



> Alberta is donating surplus medical equipment to Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia to help meet urgent demands during the COVID-19 pandemic, Premier Jason Kenney announced Saturday. #ableg https://t.co/UvcAZKTZsP
> 
> — Edmonton Journal (@edmontonjournal) April 11, 2020​


Stupid, stupid, stupid...

This comment nails it:



> Hey, I’m all for helping out our fellow Canadians in a time of need. Let’s ship that PPE gear by pipeline.


Yeppers.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your Country Is Here For You

From the comments:



> MORONS
> IMBECILES
> IDIOTS
> SIMPLETONS
> COWARDS
> NPC’s
> …all following a moistly speaking, cardboard box drink thingy using, bit of insignificant protoplasmic sexual predating, bearded groundhog emulating Peoplekind….held up as the 2nd Coming of Christ himself by a gushing WET Crotched fawning MSM.
> 
> You couldn’t make this **** up if ya tried.
> We leave this DISASTER when..??


He left out a few but it's a good start...


----------



## FUXL

We need to remind ourselves that just like in Québec, the majority of citizens favour a united Canada. I hate the separatist bastards just the same. Here's Ibbitson's column in the national newspaper this morning. Copied to avoid the paywall.

*Remember Alberta’s generosity, because it will need Canada’s help in the months ahead*

John Ibbitson

This is the very best that we are: Because COVID-19 infections are below forecasted levels in Alberta, the provincial government is donating ventilators and personal protective equipment to Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia.

“I, for one, as an Albertan and as a Canadian, could not in conscience watch us stockpile massive amounts of surplus equipment while we see many of our fellow Canadians, some provinces, within days of running out of some of these supplies,” said Premier Jason Kenney.

I, for one, as an Ontarian and as a Canadian, am deeply grateful.

All of us should keep this generosity in mind. We should remember as well that the wealth of the Alberta oil economy helped pull Canada out of the 2008-09 recession.

Because in the months ahead, it’s Alberta that will need Canada’s help.

The national unemployment rate in March, according to Statistics Canada, was 7.8 per cent. (April will be far worse). In Alberta, the level was 8.7 per cent, higher than the national average and higher than Ontario (7.6), Quebec (8.1) or British Columbia (7.2).

Falling demand and overproduction by Saudi Arabia and Russia have collapsed oil prices, leaving businesses and jobs at risk, even as the province still struggles to recover from the 2014-16 fall in prices.

"The crash in energy prices means that Alberta’s downturn will be deeper, and our recovery slower,” Mr. Kenney told Albertans in a televised address last week.

“I cannot overstate how grave the implications of this will be for jobs, our economy and the financial security of Albertans.”

In some ways, the situation resembles the Dirty Thirties. On the eve of the Depression, Ontario and Quebec relied on manufacturing to power their economies; Alberta and Saskatchewan relied on agriculture (the big oil finds came in the 1940s).

While the Depression savaged all economies, the Prairies suffered the most, because of a severe drought that became known as the Dust Bowl. High tariffs curtailed whatever agriculture exports there might have been, while protecting factory jobs in Central Canada. In 1936, the Alberta government partially defaulted on its debt; Ottawa ultimately came to the rescue.

Alberta is in no danger of defaulting again. It has a low debt-to-GDP ratio, compared to other provinces, and no sales tax. But the oil and gas sector is in desperate shape.

On Friday, federal Resources Minister Seamus O’Regan promised an aid package would be arriving “soon,” with a focus on providing the sector with financial liquidity. But there are divisions within the Liberal government and among Canadians generally over what form any aid should take.

Promoters of green energy advocate helping workers retrain as the province transitions from its dependence on oil and gas. Pragmatists understand that no such transition is possible, at least in the short term, and that oil and gas industries will need financial support now and expanded pipeline capacity for the future.

Petroleum prices will rebound as global demand increases in a world that is still years away from peak oil. Canada relies on the wealth Alberta generates from the oil sands in good times; all Canadians have an obligation to help sustain the oil and gas sector until those good times return.

The novel coronavirus pandemic has revealed the vulnerability of supply chains, as governments abscond with scarce medical equipment destined for foreign markets. The result could be onshoring: the return of domestic manufacturing.

This would be bad for the world: raising prices, increasing poverty, stifling innovation. But the Central Canadian manufacturing base could prosper, just as tariffs protected Ontario manufacturing in the 1930s, though worsening the Depression overall.

If so, then people in Ontario and Quebec need to remember that when their industries were on the ropes in the last recession, Alberta’s oil wealth helped sustain the national economy, just as ventilators and masks from Alberta are helping them fight COVID-19 today.

As recession and rock-bottom oil prices threaten the modern equivalent of the Dust Bowl, the onus is on the rest of Canada to come to the rescue, until the Prairies get back on their feet again.

Let’s be the country we can be. Let the rest of Canada be there for Alberta, just as Alberta has always been there for the rest of us.


----------



## Macfury

Ever heard of including an URL to the source of your article? 

Makes me laugh to see anyone talking about Canada rescuing Alberta. The individual provinces can't even help themselves. What will they do? Allow Alberta to actually sell gas to Quebec? Un miracle!


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Well, d'uh.

'Course they do! Without their milch cow, they'd be fukced.



FUXL said:


> We need to remind ourselves that just like in Québec, the majority of citizens favour a united Canada.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Good article, FUXL. Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## Macfury

Freddie, the NDP government you elected and praised is a large part of the Alberta's struggles today.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Good article, FUXL. Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## FeXL

Freddie, the article is crap.

Why? Because of the basic premise that Albertistan needs Canada's help. We don't. All we have to do is keep our $12 billion transfer payment and we'd be just fine.

In addition, the premise that the Greater Vancouver, Central & Coastal Canadian populations in general give a flying fukc about Albertans is laughable on its face. If they did, east- & west-bound pipelines would be going en masse into the ground as we speak and no Middle Eastern oil would be processed at Irving in NB.

They're not & they don't.

We're a milch cow & that is all. That's also why nobody has been able to give me one good, solid _positive_ reason for Alberta to stay. Everyone has a laundry list of bad reasons but not a single _good_ one.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Good article, FUXL. Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Local MPs granted veto power over which groups get Canada Summer Jobs Grants



> After years of legal battles and constitutional challenges, the Liberals are still using the Canada Summer Jobs program to reward their friends and punish their enemies: those in civil society who refuse to bend the knee and worship at the Altar of Liberalism.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your Government Is Here For You



> Millions of newly unemployed Canadians desperate for work.
> 
> So Trudeau unveils a $50,000,000 scheme to fly in 30,000+ cheap foreign farm labourers. He will pay them each $1,500 to quarantine in hotels for 14 days, instead of hiring Canadians.https://t.co/ertqDdygJk
> 
> — Ezra Levant 🇨🇳🦠 (@ezralevant) April 14, 2020​


Prog logic at its finest...


----------



## FeXL

The rules are for the little people...

Government's COVID-19 rules don't seem to apply to Andrew Scheer and Justin Trudeau



> Trudeau and his family travelled to their cottage over the weekend, while Scheer and his family took a small government jet with other MPs to Ottawa


More:



> Theresa Tam, Canada’s chief public health officer, has discouraged people from going to their cottage properties.
> 
> “Urban dwellers should avoid heading to rural properties, as these places have less capacity to manage COVID-19,” she said in early April.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

These Service Canada offices should be open 7 days/week to help people. This is a time of crisis, this isn’t the best we can do.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And, as a small business owner, I still have no, zero, access to any funding.

Farmers, food processors get federal funds to help foreign workers isolate



> Employers bringing thousands of agricultural labourers into Canada in the coming weeks will be required to quarantine them before they can work, and the federal government is promising to offset some of the costs.
> 
> Agriculture Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau announced $50 million in federal funding Monday to provide $1,500 per worker, which can be used to cover wages while they are in quarantine or the costs of space to isolate for the 14 days required under a law meant to stop the spread of COVID-19.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> And, as a small business owner, I still have no, zero, access to any funding.
> 
> Farmers, food processors get federal funds to help foreign workers isolate


I believe the TrueDope has promised relief via your 2020 tax returns along about April of 2021.

Said it before. I am not afraid of a virus that at most will infect 1 in 1000 and kill less than 1% of those. The odds of me being killed by a doctors mistake are scarier than that.

The governments response does terrify me as the odds of it having a negative impact on my life are 100%. Moreover there will always be another killer virus lurking in the shadows. Furthermore if another killer virus is needed to further the globalist cause of repressing the populace, I am sure that some US lab with a 3 letter acronym has an adequate stockpile ready to go at a moments notice.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> I believe the TrueDope has promised relief via your 2020 tax returns along about April of 2021.


Lotta good that'll do to pay this month's utilities...

But it's OK! According to The Asshole, Alberta will receive countless billions of bailout money!!! And we should be thankful!!!


----------



## FUXL

Freddie_Biff said:


> Good article, FUXL. Thanks for sharing it.


Thanks Frederick. Keep Canada Strong.:clap::clap::clap:

We will show these seppie bastards.


----------



## Macfury

FUXL and Freddie; strange bedfellows clutching each other in the night.



FUXL said:


> Thanks Frederick. Keep Canada Strong.:clap::clap::clap:
> 
> We will show these seppie bastards.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

So, what's the thrust here? That Canuckistan won't be nearly as strong without Alberta? Damn straight it won't. Yer not nearly as stupid as you appear.



FUXL said:


> Thanks Frederick. Keep Canada Strong.


Show us what? That Canuckistan won't be nearly as strong without Alberta? Asked & answered...

Na-na, na, na. Hey-ey-ey. Goom-bye...

Have fun paying off the debt without us. :lmao::lmao::lmao:



FUXL said:


> We will show these seppie bastards.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Thanks Frederick. Keep Canada Strong.:clap::clap::clap:
> 
> We will show these seppie bastards.



Seppie bastards. I like it.


----------



## Macfury

Now there's a clever name that's going to stick! How about another one from you, Freddie? 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Seppie bastards. I like it.


----------



## eMacMan

So got our quarterly GST rebate of $145 about a week ago.

Then today received a GST rebate check for $580, or a full year. 

WTH? Is this supposed to somehow compensate us for watching the idiots in Buggerwar yank the rug out from under the nations economy. Are GST rebates now suspended till 2021???


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

It's not "Justin's money." The money belongs to the people who paid the taxes — why shouldn't they get a small portion of it back.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The Libranos: Business As Usual



> John Ivison;
> 
> Long, long ago – around the end of January – Conservative MP Tony Baldinelli submitted a written question about a loan for $196 million that was written off by Export Development Canada.
> 
> Who received the loan, what was it for and why was it written off, he asked, not unreasonably.
> 
> He has just received the answer from Global Affairs Canada, a department notorious for its imperiousness when it comes to public accountability.
> 
> The transaction in question was export-related and deemed to be in Canada’s national interest, he was told.
> 
> That was all Baldinelli, or you and I, are entitled to know.​
> Related: _Trudeau’s lakeside residence undergoing $8.6M renovation: The National Capital Commission had not previously disclosed that renovations were underway …_


Quelle surprise...


----------



## SINC

Add Fuxl (aka Jimbo) and the trifecta is complete.


----------



## FUXL

Hey you Seppie tarsanders, you're negative!


----------



## Macfury

Hey FUXL, that chart looks like the economy under Trudeau. Congratulations! 



FUXL said:


> Hey you Seppie tarsanders, you're negative!


----------



## eMacMan

Meanwhile the TrueDope continues to make things worse for small businesses.


https://edmontonjournal.com/opinion...ses/wcm/c4bcb227-0c8e-4070-a207-a695ba7e284f/




> What is the federal government doing? A 75-per-cent wage subsidy has been promised, but the details haven’t been released. Businesses that qualify will have to apply for it every month through a web portal which has yet to be constructed.
> 
> If everything goes as planned, a business can expect to start receiving money in three to six weeks. But what if everything doesn’t go to plan?
> Canada has been in lockdown since March. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business, said: “30 per cent of small firms say they can survive less than a month in the current situation.”
> 
> It’s been a month already, and in that time thousands of businesses have folded. The government has offered $40,000 loans for small businesses but only for non-deferrable expenses and only through existing financial institutions. Credit unions, which many Alberta businesses use for banking, were not eligible to offer these loans. New clients aren’t eligible to receive these loans, so if a business switches from a credit union to one of the big banks to receive this help, they won’t be eligible there either.
> 
> As well, many business owners don’t qualify for the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS) help because of how their payroll is structured or due to the minimum payroll required to qualify. Numerous business owners have written me to ask for help navigating through this program, which has changed several times since first announced last month.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Meanwhile the TrueDope continues to make things worse for small businesses.


Juthdin can kith my hairy, unwathed, ath...


----------



## FUXL

*Hey you hairy, unwathed, ath, separatists*:


----------



## Macfury

How's life at home FUXL? Family ready to throw you out yet?


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

If you're expecting somebody here to jump up & defend Kenney then you're definitely as clueless as we all suspect.

I never liked him as a Fed and, despite the fact that he's head, shoulders, ass & toe nail fungus above Red Rachel, he ain't what this province needs right now.



FUXL said:


> Hey you hairy, unwathed, ath, separatists


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hello, Asshole.
> 
> If you're expecting somebody here to jump up & defend Kenney then you're definitely as clueless as we all suspect.
> 
> I never liked him as a Fed and, despite the fact that he's head, shoulders, ass & toe nail fungus above Red Rachel, he ain't what this province needs right now.


Ottawa progs are completely out of touch with Canada.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Ottawa progs are completely out of touch with Canada.


How can that beeee?!!! They read MotherCorpse!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Let's talk Blackie Sockboy McGroperFace & his cadre of idiots some.

Wuhan Flu: The Supply Chain Is Not OK



> Financial Post: _Canadian farmers are warning that their fields could fall fallow and their crops left to rot this summer, resulting in potential food shortages and higher prices._
> 
> High River Cargill plant that processes 40% of Canada’s beef closes.
> 
> More on that here.
> 
> Chicken farmers to shrink national flock by 12%
> 
> …all employees at the United Poultry Company Ltd. in East Vancouver have been told to self-isolate following the discovery of an outbreak at the plant.
> 
> Canadian beef farmers and ranchers are in a critical situation and are requesting urgent action from government. @cafreeland @mclaudebibeau #cdnpoli #cdnag #covid19 pic.twitter.com/KSRhAb0O5Y
> 
> — Cdn Cattlemen's Assn (@CdnCattlemen) April 21, 2020​


—

What? He was expecting _quid pro quo_ for his 16 tonnes back in Feb?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Justin saves Canada Episode #95



> _OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says two planes from China were forced to return empty to Canada on Monday, without the protective medical equipment that they were sent there to pick up."_​


Related:

Trudeau's Liberals spinning tales of missing PPE stockpile



> The Trudeau Liberals are trying to rewrite history after being caught flat-footed without enough personal protective equipment in the national emergency stockpile.
> 
> This week, with Parliament returning, there have been plenty of questions about the stockpile but few honest answers.
> 
> Asked by Conservative MP Chris Lewis whether sending protective equipment to China left Canada short, Health Minister Patty Hajdu not only didn’t answer the question, she lied about the purpose of the emergency stockpile.


Huh. A lying Prog? Shocka...

—

The Libranos: Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste



> Blacklocks (paywalled);
> 
> Cabinet is concealing thousands of pandemic records including details of contracts and ministerial memos. Cabinet in one case breached a direct order from the Commons health committee to disclose briefing notes, while the Library of Parliament has refused to disclose files it admits are public documents: “They were not so busy that they could not busy themselves with redacting the documents.”​


Related:

Trudeau government censors thousands of coronavirus pandemic records



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's cabinet has concealed thousands of pandemic records. These documents include government contracts and memos by ministers.


—

It's not just civil liberties. Many other charter rights have been violated in COVID-19 pandemic



> All these possible violations of constitutional rights would be perfectly legal if they can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. But can they?


I'll just consider that a rhetorical question.

—

The Libranos: Brown Envelope Watch



> Because the cottage lacked …a cottage.


Shocka...

Related:

Trudeau's second home undergoing $8.6 MILLION tax-funded renovation



> The prime minister's second home Harrington Lake where he spends summers with his family is undergoing $8.6 million in taxpayer-funded renovations, according to the CBC.


—

Why is it that the only time Ottawa pays attention to Alberta is when the supply of stuff they want from us is threatened?

Ottawa watching food supply chain "very, very carefully" after Alberta outbreak.



> Meat prices could go up now that a massive processing plant in Alberta has temporarily shut itself down following a COVID-19 outbreak — but it's not likely to lead to a domestic shortage, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said today.
> 
> "We've heard from Canadian beef producers and associations that the priority will be ensuring Canadian supply before they move to exporting. Much of our beef is exported," he told reporters during his daily news briefing this morning.


Hey, Blackie, here's a little tip for ya: The good news is yeah, we got lots of beef. The bad news is, it ships via pipeline...

—

Worried about offending Trump, 'flaky' Trudeau 'humiliated' fellow leaders during TPP trade talks: former Aussie PM



> Former Australian prime minster Malcolm Turnbull has accused Justin Trudeau of “humiliating” other world leaders during negotiations for a revamped Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal in 2017.
> 
> In a just published autobiography, Turnbull said he personally felt let down by Trudeau and upbraided him for embarrassing other world leaders when he failed to show up for a critical meeting.
> 
> ...
> 
> “Justin always wore perfectly tailored suits that fitted like a glove, bright socks and on this occasion two-tone shoes,” wrote Turnbull. “‘What do you think of the socks?’ he asked, crossing his legs as he sat down. ‘Justin,’ I said, ‘we’re not here to talk about your socks’.”


Worse than a little kid. Needs constant attention & reassurance that he's being noticed.

Related:

Trudeau's socks being an embarrassment would be least of our worries



> Justin Trudeau’s socks have been an asset and a liability for him over the years. The PM and his team have used Trudeau’s sock game to drive positive news coverage, even non-political news coverage, while *his opponents have used his socks to portray him as someone less than serious.*


Bold mine.

As in, a complete & utter idiot? Naaaahhhhh...

—

Yet another problem emerges in the Liberal firearms plan



> Jumping through hoops.
> 
> If you’re a gun owner in Canada, you have to get used to jumping through hoops. Harassing law-abiding gun owners is a common way for “progressive” politicians to prove they’re getting tough on crime.
> 
> The problem with this approach, it’s useless. The country’s 2.2 million legit owners aren’t responsible for gun crime, so making them jump through more and more hoops will in no way make us safer.


Doesn't matter to the gun control nuts. Makes for good sound bites...

—

Become? :yikes:

Trudeau's climate plan has become a farce



> While other people understandably have other things on their minds these days, government figures released last week show Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s climate change plan has been a complete bust.


More:



> So despite the billions of dollars the Trudeau government, meaning all of us, have spent on his climate change plan, the centrepiece of which is his national carbon tax/price, Canada’s emissions in 2018 were 1 Mt lower than in 2005, at 729 Mt.


Huh. Yet another failed Prog "save the world" plan.

Shocka...

—

'Course he does! Can't be critical of those he wants a seat from! 'Sides, he admires their basic dictatorship!

Trudeau appears ready to give the WHO a pass



> All things considered, it’s best not to expect the Trudeau government to lead a critical examination of the controversial role played by the World Health Organization in the severity of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> This given Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s reluctance to criticize the United Nations agency, or for that matter China, for their actions that made the global impact of the pandemic more severe than it had to be.


—

Hope they all got a map pointing out where the Cottage is...

Trudeau government releases hundreds of prisoners due to coronavirus



> The Department of Public Safety has announced that an increased number of federal prisoners have become eligible for parole as a method to curb coronavirus, according to Blacklock's Reporter.
> 
> “There have been over the past six weeks hundreds of people who have been eligible and received approval from the Parole Board for release,” said Public Safety Minister Bill Blair yesterday to reporters. “A number of those are people who were particularly vulnerable.”
> 
> “How many inmates were released due to COVID-19?” asked a reporter. “Approximately six hundred people became eligible for consideration for parole and release and the Parole Board has been working very diligently through those release provisions,” replied Minister Blair.


—

PM Asshat opens Canada-U.S. border to asylum-seekers from war torn New York in middle of pandemic



> The Canada-U.S. border has opened slightly to asylum seekers under the new framework unveiled this week extending the historic shutdown.


And this? This merely confirms that at least 54% of Canadians are uninformed idiots...

Justin Trudeau's approval rating SURGES during coronavirus



> His popularity is clear through the fact that his approval rating has now reached 54 percent, which is a substantial increase since the beginning of February.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Hello, Asshole.
> 
> If you're expecting somebody here to jump up & defend Kenney then you're definitely as clueless as we all suspect.
> 
> I never liked him as a Fed and, despite the fact that he's head, shoulders, ass & toe nail fungus above Red Rachel, he ain't what this province needs right now.


Plus he seems determined to take out small towns throughout Alberta. He seems to be an avid believer in the UN Agenda 2021, now referred to as Agenda 2030.

EDIT: A small glimmer of hope here, though I am not sure if it completely reverses the rural medical mess that Kenney created, but it is a good start.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/po...ces/wcm/c7deda69-0f47-458a-81d9-c5c2f95fccc8/



> Rural doctors will now be exempt from changes to overhead billing that some say have led to reduced service in hospitals, Alberta Health Minister Tyler Shandro said Friday.
> 
> Under rules that were announced earlier this year, doctors were prohibited for billing for overhead costs when seeing patients in a hospital.
> 
> This resulted in some rural doctors pulling back on hospital work in order to see patients at their clinics, for which overhead costs could still be billed for, with some doctors noting that their clinics are physically attached to hospitals.
> 
> The change to overhead billing has been paused for urban doctors, pending a review from Alberta health services.
> 
> Shandro also said that medical liability insurance rates would be frozen at $1,000 for rural doctors, some of whom said they would not be able to deliver babies if rates were increased.
> In addition, the $60,000 cap for the Rural and Remote Northern Program, which tops up pay for rural doctors, has been abolished.
> 
> Other measures announced included increasing on-call rates for rural doctors and paying for education for 20 medical students.


----------



## eMacMan

Another glimmer of intelligence coming from Saskabush.
https://edmontonjournal.com/news/ec...pen/wcm/20c9147c-382b-49d0-8062-d7b2a50c6639/


> On Thursday, Moe announced a five-phase plan to reopen business, beginning with medical services such as dentist offices on May 4, followed by outdoor recreation and golf courses on May 15. Phase 2 will allow retail, beauty and hair salons to open on May 19 with certain restrictions.
> 
> For example, there should be no more than 10 people in a store. Every item will need to be disinfected and, where possible, social distancing measures need to be continued.
> 
> There are still no timelines for reopening bars, restaurants, casinos or museums. Nor is there a timeline for when the province’s beloved CFL franchise, the Roughriders, can play as health authorities keep tabs on the number and trajectory of coronavirus infections in the province, which stood at 326 cases and four deaths Thursday morning.
> 
> “I know there are some that are concerned this is far too soon and that reopening business could increase the spread of COVID-19,” Moe said, adding that banks, liquor and grocery stores remained open during the pandemic without causing outbreaks.
> 
> “This gives us confidence that Saskatchewan businesses can reopen and keep their customers and their employees safe by maintaining similar practices,” Moe said, adding the province would adjust its plans as it monitors case numbers every day.


I am on the fence about golf courses. Hardly an essential or even important service. If they also open camping facilities and hiking trails, all of which are great stress relievers, then they are going in the right direction. And stress can be even deadlier than Covid, which probably explains why the various governments are doing everything they can to ratchet up stress levels.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Oh, there's an idea! Supporting Canadian producers instead of Saudi Arabia & Russia, among others. Shipping oil via pipelines instead of using ocean-going tankers requiring bunker fuel travelling halfway around the globe. What a concept!

Canada and the U.S. should ban all oil imports from OPEC, Saudi Arabia, Russia and form their own energy pact



> Canada and the United States should join forces by banning all oil imports from Saudi Arabia, Russia and other OPEC countries and replace it with oil produced right here in North America.
> 
> The creation of an OPEC-free market would protect our two countries from price shocks and ensure our energy independence. Given OPEC’s ongoing sabotage of international oil markets, a bilateral energy pact will be essential going forward.
> 
> The U.S. and Canada produce as much oil as Saudi Arabia and Russia combined and can produce more than enough to meet our combined domestic needs. By 2019, the Canadian and American oil industries were already heavily integrated. Western Canada exported 4.4 million barrels a day of oil to the United States, and the U.S. exported one million barrels a day to eastern Canada. We also imported from foreigners: up to half a million barrels a day was imported to eastern Canada, mainly from Saudi Arabia, but also from Norway, the United Kingdom, Nigeria and Azerbaijan. The United States produced more than 12 million barrels a day, but also imported another two million barrels daily from Saudi Arabia, Russia, Mexico and Colombia.


Prog heads exploding...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Tented Canopy Is Not a City Set Upon a Hill: COVID-19 Has Made It Even Less Likely that Canada Can Get Its House in Order



> Despite the stalling tactics of certain Democrat governors, the U.S. is gradually moving toward restoring business as usual and rebooting the economy after a much-overrated “pandemic.” Canada, however, remains in lockdown, printing money it does not have to offset the closing down of industry and commerce, and sinking ever deeper into the economic doldrums. The mint is working overtime in the U.S. as well, but America is a dynamic nation with vast manufacturing capacity, fewer regulations and a pro-active president, giving it a high survivability index.
> 
> Canada is a different kettle of piranhas. *Its fiscal condition even prior to the onset of the COVID epidemic was already in red alert with mounting debt, a supine economy, an oppressive and totally unnecessary carbon tax superposed upon an already taxed-to-death population, the flight of both capital and manufacturing to the U.S., steadily increasing unemployment, an idle petroleum industry, a stupefying narcissist for a prime minister, and a government policy directed toward “social justice” initiatives rather than toward a sober and robust effort to revive a moribund country.*


Emphasis mine...


----------



## FeXL

<snort> Mebbe there isn't enough beef to ship to Ontario & Kaybeck.

Hey, Asshole: Swap ya a pound of regular ground beef for a mile of pipeline. Lean, double that. 10 oz outside round steak will cost ya five miles. 4 lb sirloin tip roast, 15 miles. Rack of beef ribs, 50 miles. Fifteen pound brisket, hunnert miles. The prime rib ain't for sale. It's too good for you bastards...

2 Alberta meat plants affected by COVID-19 make up 70% of Canada’s beef processing capabilities



> Cargill Inc.’s High River, Alta., plant temporarily shuttered operations Monday after a worker died from the coronavirus and hundreds of other employees tested positive.
> 
> Meanwhile, a second plant — JBS plant in Brooks, Alta. — recorded 96 cases as of Wednesday. It has reduced operations, according to the Canadian Cattlemen’s Association, which represents the 60,000 beef farms and feedlots in the country.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Liberal Government Dramatically Slashed Emergency Medical Stockpile



> A new report indicates that the Trudeau Liberal government had dramatically slashed Canada’s emergency medical stockpile ahead of the CCP Coronavirus Pandemic.
> 
> According to the Globe & Mail, funding for the stockpile was raised from $19.8 million in 2012, to $71.8 million in 2014, demonstrating a large increase in preparedness under the Conservative government.
> 
> Then, the Liberals slashed the funding, dropping it by millions down to $54.9 million last year.
> 
> Even worse, the number of Canadian cities with stockpiles was slashed from 9 cities two years ago, to just 6 cities now.


----------



## FeXL

Your Government Is Here For You



> Money for nothing, chicks for free.
> 
> Just heard from from a buddy who works at a local auto dealer. All three students they had lined up for summer jobs are quitting because they can collect Trudeau's new student emergency cash and take the summer off instead. Wonder who they will vote for at the next election.
> 
> — Bill Brasky (@Polkameister) April 23, 2020​


Bought off with their own money & too young & dumb to know it...

Related:


----------



## FeXL

Pleasing Your Enemies Does Not Turn Them Into Friends



> Backbone sighting;
> 
> Embattled rookie MP for Hastings and Lennox and Addington Derek Sloan says his controversial criticism of Canada’s top doctor’s handling of COVID-19 was about her job performance, not about race.
> 
> The leadership candidate for the Conservative Party of Canada is standing by his assertion Dr. Theresa Tam, Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer, should be pink-slipped for following slow-footed COVID-19 counter measures by the World Health Organization he believes delayed swifter protection for Canadians against the disease. […]
> 
> “When I made the statement, obviously, the idea people would think it was racist was not even on my mind. I would have said those statements about any public health officer that made those decisions in her spot,” Sloan said. “It had nothing to do with her background.”
> 
> “I have concerns about the way Dr. Tam has responded to the pandemic, I have concerns about the World Health Organization being sort of beholden to China, at least parroting this information from China. It has nothing to do with Dr. Tam’s background, what her ethnicity is. Outside of there being a lot of hysteria right now, I’m not sure where all of the confusion came from,” Sloan said.
> 
> Sloan asked, “what information is she using and who is it benefiting? I’m not questioning her motives, I’m saying as public health officer, she needs to avail herself of all public information.” […]
> 
> 
> Sloan said it is his fiduciary duty to hold those in political power accountable on behalf of his electorate in his riding, many of whom, are facing personal and financial hardship amid self-isolation measures to stem the spread of the virus.
> 
> “Keep in mind, I get calls from businesses every day that are on the brink of failure in our very riding. To me, I’m sorry if I’m chomping a little bit too much here, but I’m concerned about people in my riding. And if I can raise issues that talk about how we could have done things better or how we can get out of this, that’s my duty to do so and I will always do that,” Sloan said.
> 
> “I won’t be issuing an apology. We’re going to be issuing additional communications to party members and doing additional interviews so that may help to clarify. I never mentioned her race and in no way was it part of my comments,” he said.
> 
> “People who are making that connection are being disingenuous.”​
> The first step to recovery is to recognize and call out bad faith arguments for what they are.
> 
> *Hmm, Trudeau calling Derek Sloan For Conservative Leader a racist for saying Dr. Tam should be fired, makes one think Sloan had actually done something racist, you know, like wearing blackface*😏#BlackfaceTrudeau #cdnpoli https://t.co/S5YEMjbu0K
> 
> — Frank McVeety (@Franktmcveety) April 24, 2020​


Bold mine...

:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## eMacMan

Yep if you don't like the message, call the messenger racist. It's also known as spin or deflection.


----------



## SINC

Yep, exactly!


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> Yep, exactly!


Too polite by half...


----------



## FUXL

Pee shooter. No doubt applauded by hairy assed separatists in Tarsandia.


----------



## Macfury

Canada needs more people who follow the World Health Organization in lockstep! 

How is your family treating you these days, FUXL? Have they thrown you out yet?


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

The mark of a 4th rate political cartoonist is to not understand his point...



FUXL said:


> Pee shooter. No doubt applauded by hairy assed separatists in Tarsandia.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hello, Asshole.
> 
> The mark of a 4th rate political cartoonist is to not understand his point...


I think he's saying that the Liberal government is being crushed by COVID-19. Not much of a point, but there you have it.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*



Macfury said:


> I think he's saying that the Liberal government is being crushed by COVID-19. Not much of a point, but there you have it.


If that's it, then I agree wholeheartedly. The way Der Gropenfuhrer & his cadre of Chi-Com & WHO supporting Prog idiots have handled this TGF? Absolutely.


----------



## FUXL

Whew boy! Yet another blow to 'Burta. Looks like this time it'll be a literal *BAIL* out. Canada is here for you but we need to screen out all the *separatist* bastards.

https://business.financialpost.com/...urray-flood-series-natural-economic-disasters


----------



## Macfury

I remember how well Canada responded during the Fort Mac wildfires.

How's the family treating you, FUXL?


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

Canada, you and Der Gropenfuhrer can kith my hairy, unwathed, ath. Give us back the $200 billion plus that we've paid into this $h!thole country & we'll quietly go away. 

Good luck with the ensuing tariffs... :lmao::lmao::lmao:

BTW, I wouldn't expect the likes of an idiot like you to catch it, but the recent addendum to your sig is missing an apostrophe...



FUXL said:


> Canada is here for you but we need to screen out all the *separatist* bastards.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> BTW, I wouldn't expect the likes of an idiot like you to catch it, but the recent addendum to your sig is missing an apostrophe...


Note the emphasis on the word "BAIL." He clearly thinks that to bail out financially is to "BALE." The hallmark of a prog: woefully misplaced self-confidence and ignorance aggressively on display...



> Looks like this time it'll be a literal *BAIL* out.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Note the emphasis on the word "BAIL." He clearly thinks that to bail out financially is to "BALE." The hallmark of a prog: woefully misplaced self-confidence and ignorance aggressively on display...


Yep. Alberta's been bailing out this $h!thole of a country for decades, especially Kaybeck, and one of the few times we may actually need some of _our own_ cash back the Progs try to make political hay out of it. Nothing quite like being lectured by a mental midget...

BTW, I was going to tell him clearly & precisely where to place the apostrophe but I didn't think he'd appreciate my candor. beejacon:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> BTW, I was going to tell him clearly & precisely where to place the apostrophe but I didn't think he'd appreciate my candor. beejacon:lmao::lmao::lmao:


He could probably wear that apostrophe as a loincloth and venture out comfortably in public.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> He could probably wear that apostrophe as a loincloth and venture out comfortably in public.


Naw he might get within 6 feet of his shadow and catch Covid. 

Just ignore the fact that outdoors air exchange is almost instantaneous, so catching covid in the great outdoors is almost impossible. Only socially oppressive bureaurats believe that to be a genuine possibility. Indeed in their eyes it is worthy cause for closing campgrounds, parks and trails.

Anyone who can buy the official line about parks and trails must surely be at risk of catching covid from their own shadow.


----------



## SINC

There is no rational reason for not allowing camping. Not. A. Single. One.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> There is no rational reason for not allowing camping. Not. A. Single. One.


It's to ensure that power hungry bureaucrats continue to get high on the stench of their own over-reach.


----------



## FUXL

Yep. She's at it again. Michelle. Godin. Rempel. Garner. (sheesh..more pricks than a porcupine). Turns out the co-author of the Buffalo Patty Manifesto is spendin' time in Oklahoma with her Yankee Doodle Dandy new squeeze. I'm sure she'll have adequate time shootin' her pink pistol practicin' fer the upcomin' civil war. Don't let her back into Canada, we don't need any more hairy athed separatists!

https://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-...garner-working-from-oklahoma-during-pandemic/


----------



## eMacMan

I saw nothing in the article, that would make Michelle Remple a legitimate target for criticism. Would say the same were she a Liebarrel or Non Democratic MP.

Perhaps one has to be an idiot to think there is something out of sorts.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Asshole.

The mark of a 4th rate ehMac poster is to wonder exactly WTF his point is.
1) You don't like multiple last names?;
2) You don't like the fact that, unlike much of the Fed snivelling service, she's actually working while getting paid?;
3) You don't like guns?;
4) You're a sexist, misogynistic pig (pink pistol)?;
5) You don't like the fact that she has a boyfriend & wish she was a lesbian?;
6) It pi$$es you off yer stuck in a Prog $h!thole like Ontario while she's in Oklahoma?;
7) You don't think she should come home despite the fact that Blackie Elbowgate McGroper-Socks let 2000 petri dishes fly in direct from Wuhan?;
8) Yer scared that Alberta may actually separate & you'll be stuck holdin' yer apostrophe?;
9) Some other vague, baseless concept?



FUXL said:


> Yep. She's at it again.


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## FUXL

*Speaking of hairy unwathed athes:*


----------



## Macfury

Oh, gosh. Spare me these weak gags. Can't you even place the heads on right?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Oh, gosh. Spare me these weak gags. Can't you even place the heads on right?


Like eMacMan, I don't get the issue. Who cares? All the legitimate criticism that could be levelled and The Asshole has to fabricate scandals?

As eMM noted:



> Perhaps one has to be an idiot to think there is something out of sorts.


Must be why I don't get it...


----------



## FeXL

Yet some Asshole's will still celebrate negative oil prices...

If Alberta's energy sector dies every Canadian will suffer — the numbers don't lie



> It became even more abundantly evident that something must be done to help Canada’s energy industry after oil hit negative prices on Monday.
> 
> As the requests for help mount, so do the objections from those who say they don’t want taxpayer dollars going towards helping the oil patch. They shouldn’t worry so much. The $15 billion to $30 billion of backstopped credit Premier Jason Kenney is asking for — to help the energy industry survive an unprecedented perfect storm of events — largely comes from the energy industry, to begin with.


More:



> *The Canadian Energy Centre calculates that over the past 18 years the direct contributions Canada’s energy sector made to federal and provincial revenues between 2000 and 2018, is very conservatively estimated at $360 billion* — more than any other sector by a long shot.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

HELL NO!!!

Trudeau government expected to increase funding to the WHO to make up for the US



> The EU and WHO expect Canada to play a key role in providing more financial relief to the global health organization, according to CP24, to make up for monies lost by the US defunding.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> HELL NO!!!
> 
> Trudeau government expected to increase funding to the WHO to make up for the US


NOPE: The TrueDope destroyed Canada's economy following WHO/Gates directives. Let Bill Gates bail them out, he is the one hoping to line his wallet with a worldwide mandatory covid vaccine. A vaccine that will almost certainly kill or cripple more people than it saves.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau must stop stalling and say no to Huawei now



> It is now 505 days that two innocent Canadian men—Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor—have been living the hell of Chinese jailhouses to hear virtual silence coming from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
> 
> His Liberal government has yet to decide if it will allow Huawei, a huge Chinese hi-tech mega-corporation that takes its cues from the dictatorial communist regime of Xi Jinping, to have its technology be part of the development of Canada’s new generation 5G wireless network.
> 
> Trudeau must make this decision now and end the stalling.
> 
> He must say NO to Huawei.


----------



## FeXL

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I'd like to see the Canadian dairy cartels eliminated. On the other...

Canada's dairy processors to lose $100M if new NAFTA takes effect in July: Plett



> The federal government has betrayed Canada's dairy processors by allowing the United States to activate the new North American trade deal on July 1 -- a month earlier than the industry was expecting, the Opposition leader in the Senate said Tuesday.
> 
> Sen. Don Plett warned the country's 470 processing facilities, an industry that employs more than 24,000 people and contributes $18 billion annually to the Canadian economy, stand to lose upwards of $100 million if the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement takes effect as scheduled.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I'd like to see the Canadian dairy cartels eliminated. On the other...
> 
> Canada's dairy processors to lose $100M if new NAFTA takes effect in July: Plett


I guess it will disproprtionately harm Canadian producers who charge twice the price for milk as their American counterparts.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> I guess it will disproprtionately harm Canadian producers who charge twice the price for milk as their American counterparts.


:lmao:

Our dairy industry is a good example of what happens when people who hate trade get to control an industry. Keep foreign competition out, then limit domestic competition, then stay very active in politics to keep the system under control.

Occasionally some quotas get increased when we try to negotiate trade deals, wherein the conversation starts with, "Telecom, finance, dairy, poultry, and healthcare are partially or mostly off the table. Let's talk trade."


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Our dairy industry is a good example of what happens when people who hate trade get to control an industry. Keep foreign competition out, then limit domestic competition, then stay very active in politics to keep the system under control.
> 
> Occasionally some quotas get increased when we try to negotiate trade deals, wherein the conversation starts with, "Telecom, finance, dairy, poultry, and healthcare are partially or mostly off the table. Let's talk trade."


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Our dairy industry is a good example of what happens when people who hate trade get to control an industry. Keep foreign competition out, then limit domestic competition, then stay very active in politics to keep the system under control.


I love it when these cartels claim that Canadians love "price stability." We'd rather pay $3.50 for a lite of milk than see messy price fluctuations in the $1.50 to $1.99 range. Who wants to deal with that kind of confusion and misery?


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> I love it when these cartels claim that Canadians love "price stability." We'd rather pay $3.50 for a lite of milk than see messy price fluctuations in the $1.50 to $1.99 range. Who wants to deal with that kind of confusion and misery?


I enjoy playing monopoly with someone who already owns everything. The stable pricing of a well established monopoly that has maxed out hotels is satisfying. I know exactly how much I'll have to pay every time, and not be left to wonder about if there will be houses, or how many houses there will be.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> I enjoy playing monopoly with someone who already owns everything. The stable pricing of a well established monopoly that has maxed out hotels is satisfying. I know exactly how much I'll have to pay every time, and not be left to wonder about if there will be houses, or how many houses there will be.


Heading for the Boardwalk with $400 in my pocket... and the living is easy!


----------



## SINC

This pretty much says it all and proves once again that Justin Trudeau is a complete moron and asshole.

*Today I became a criminal*



> Today, I became a criminal; not through my own actions, but due to a decision made by Justin Trudeau. With the stroke of a pen, Trudeau made me and 2.1M other Canadians criminals. Trudeau threw away democracy by bypassing parliamentary procedures. He made an Order in Council, avoiding any debate or parliamentary oversight. In my opinion, he did this because there would have been opposition if he had followed the regular democratic process. I view this as extorting law-abiding Canadians by taking away their personal, legally acquired property with threats of incarceration.
> 
> In Canada, we already have very restrictive gun controls compared to the United States. Firstly, a firearms safety course must be passed. Then you have to provide the RCMP character references as well as conjugal partners for the past five years. After background and reference checks are approved, then you get your Possession Acquisition Licence. The entire length of time to obtain a PAL – a daily, yes daily, background check is completed with Canadian Police Information Centre. A PAL lasts for five years, before owners provide character references and conjugal partners again.
> 
> I often hear that we don’t need these types of guns. Food, water and shelter are the basic things needed for survival. It’s safe to say we are well beyond having what we need. I don’t need my guns – I love having my guns. I enjoy competitive shooting. I enjoy hunting. I enjoy taking a newbie to the gun range for the first time, or a friend from overseas. Everyone has things they enjoy and love doing. Enjoying going out to the range with my firearms has not caused a single problem. Yesterday I was privileged enough to enjoy my passion and on May 1, I lost a huge chunk of that privilege. Why? Because a new law came into place prohibiting me from owning my sporting rifles. Laws do not stop criminals from illegally obtaining guns. New laws would not have stopped the recent mass murder. Law abiding citizens should not be punished for criminal acts.
> 
> For those who are indifferent to guns, or who agree with the new controls being forced upon Canadians, imagine if Trudeau announced the banning of sportscars (race-style) because a stolen sportscar was used to commit a crime. Imagine sitting at home and waiting to see if your car will show up on the newly banned sportscar list. The car you just spend money on last week, last month, last year. The car you worked on with your dad to restore. The car you saved for and were so proud to get when you turned 16.
> 
> With the stroke of a pen, without any debate in parliament, now you must give up your sportscar. And sure, they’ll give you market value for it, but you know that is nowhere near the amount you spent on it. Would you feel angry, disappointed, betrayed or unfairly treated because yours isn’t really a sportscar? That is what legal gun owners across Canada are feeling today. That is how I feel today. I was once so proud to be Canadian. Today, I feel defeated and betrayed by what I once considered a democracy.
> 
> Also, for the record, AR-15 stands for ArmaLite Rifle Model 15, which has NEVER been used in a violent crime in Canada. Ever.


https://www.assiniboiatimes.ca/opin...Egx1nswAymvp_8sZbdbz6BOzkHd3JbW50xFr-PFvmdSXg


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Some idiots think this is a good thing...

Canada’s oil and gas drilling forecast revised to 49 year low as producers cut spending



> The Petroleum Services Association of Canada has revised its 2020 Canadian drilling forecast to an almost 50-year record low of 3,100 oil and gas wells, a level not seen since 2,900 wells were drilled in 1972.
> 
> PSAC interim CEO Elizabeth Aquin says more than $7 billion of capital investment in the energy sector has been cancelled to date this year thanks to demand destruction from measures to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic and a supply surplus due to an oil price war between Russia and Saudi Arabia.
> 
> She said blockades of the Coastal GasLink Pipeline and cancellation of the Frontier oilsands project have also hurt investor confidence in the Canadian oil and gas industry.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Meme nails it.

Under Trudeau, our charter rights are conditional



> The coronavirus lockdown measures have been unprecedented and extreme.
> 
> Even during times of great danger and uncertainty in the past — during the world wars, past pandemics, the threat of nuclear war and after life-altering terrorist attacks — our leaders resisted imposing such strict and heavy-handed measures.


----------



## SINC

*Why Canada Will Become a Dictatorship Under Trudeau*




> The leader of that party does what he wants, when he wants, and no one dares question him. Would a Prime Minister Trudeau arbitrarily whip the vote and outlaw certain moral questions? Could Prime Minister Trudeau be trusted to make decisions for the good of the country, not just for his personal self-worth? Would Trudeau call in the police to enforce his vision? Let's hope we never have the opportunity to ask those questions.
> 
> Originally published in the Prince Arthur Herald
> 
> It's becoming clearer as the days of Trudeau's Liberals wear on: if elected Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau would turn Canada into a dictatorship.
> 
> This is the man who admitted he "admires China's basic dictatorship." It wasn't just a sarcastic comment - he seriously said that he admires the dictatorship because they can get things done quickly.
> 
> And it's becoming clearer that Trudeau not only admires the dictatorship -- he runs the Liberal Party like one too.
> 
> How else can one explain the police-enforced acclamation of Andrew Leslie as the Liberal candidate for Orleans? Even with hundreds of Liberals attending the meeting to show their support for another candidate (and former Trudeau leadership rival), it was clear from the beginning that Leslie was Trudeau's hand-picked favourite, and certainly wouldn't be stopped by pesky processes like "democracy."


More on HuffPost.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/danie...iCceV9wePUgNAGWf-aPm9tDuYcfH7HNvLltqODv4vqCkk


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Ah, the compassionate, intellectual, left...

SHOOT ON SIGHT: Liberal staffer condones killing curfew-breakers



> A federal Liberal riding association executive with a penchant for bad behaviour online would shed no tears for COVID-19 quarantine-breakers shot dead by government snipers.
> 
> Mark Elyas, who in 2018 ended up in hot water over profane Facebook rants calling for Trump supporters to lose custody of their children and be exiled to detention camps, posted on Facebook last month support for now-discredited comments by Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte urging police to kill citizens defying coronavirus lockdown.


More:



> *Elyas lists himself as President (Vancouver-East) of the Liberal Party of Canada*, and is an administrator for the riding association’s Facebook page.


Bold mine.

One might think that I'd would disagree with Mark. On the contrary, I fully endorse his approach. However, I don't think he goes nearly far enough. 

Steal a car? Shoot 'em. Shoplift? Bullet to the back of the head. Rape? Shotgun to the genitals. Murder? Butter 'em, they're toast.

Nor should that be the end. This should apply to politicians, as well. Break an election promise, not limited to but including budget limits, firearm confiscation, etc., shoot 'em. Display a history of racism (blackface), sexual assault (groping and/or elbowing of women's breasts) or outright lying (Chinese coronavirus, merely the latest of dozens), line 'em up against the wall & call out the firing squad.

Is the /sarc tag really needed here?

F'ing Prog idiot...


----------



## SINC

*WE’RE GOING TO COURT – CHARTER CHALLENGE*



> Over the last five days, the CCFR has looked at what the Liberal Party of Canada has done to us with their massive, overreaching firearms ban, and in that short time to the best of our ability we have assessed all of the associated issues and the ways that we can respond to protect our members.
> 
> This issue gives rise to complicated arguments of constitutional law and the legislative process, however the arguments boiled down to this fundamental truth: the government, in an entirely arbitrary and irrational way, has created legislation that will deprive us of our property and our freedom to live as we wish, on pains of incarceration for failing to comply.
> 
> While we have assessed the legal technicalities of what they have done in great detail, the government is charged with passing legislation governing the nation and our options are not great. That said, when we took our analysis back to first principles, and the actual nature of our complaint, it became quite simple: we believe that this is a wrongful deprivation of liberty arising from an improper exercise of legislative power.
> 
> Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms provides that “Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice”.
> 
> Although the application of this section of the Charter to our circumstances is not guaranteed, this much is clear: what’s gone wrong in this process is that we have been deprived, both as to our freedom to live as we choose, as well as being put at risk of incarceration by this law, in a manner that is fundamentally unjust. We will ask the Court to rule on whether or not the government has the right to deprive us of our liberty, or our property, on penalty of incarceration, on fundamentally irrational grounds.
> 
> In looking at the role of the CCFR and what our members want and need from us, it is clear that lobbying and running educational programs will not solve this problem. While we will keep doing that of course, to deal with this problem we must do more. We must fight for our liberty, and we must fight to oppose irrational legislation. In the present case, this requires litigation. We must try to use the powers of the court to stop the unrestrained and abusive exercise of legislative authority given to the government. Regrettably, nothing else will work.
> 
> As an additional argument beyond issues of liberty, while the government is clearly authorized by section 117.15 of the Criminal Code of Canada to make regulations classifying firearms, we say their use of that authority in this instance is irrational with no foundation in the factual circumstances of Canadian society. Such an arbitrary exercise of legislative process is abusive, contrary to the principles of fundamental justice, and must be struck down. We will ask the Court to do this as well.
> 
> We are not guaranteed success in this fight, although the arguments are far from frivolous. In the end, we can either choose to simply take this treatment, or we can oppose it in the only ways we can.
> 
> And so, here we are – we ARE doing this. There is no guarantee of a win – but our team believes we have a chance, and we promised our community we would leave no stone unturned, nor avenue unexplored. We meant it.
> 
> Stay tuned for details on how you can help, when the action is officially filed and where we go from here. Rod, Tracey, Michael and the entire team at the CCFR are grateful for your continued support. We are all in this together.


https://firearmrights.ca/en/we-are-..._SyfHWnLnAUQ1C7OQj5f8tQ7pq5WexYo_xdHOjvyTSrKM


----------



## SINC

*Trudeau's legal gun ban smells like a takeover*



> The obsession of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to disarm Canada’s civilian population of certain legally-obtained weapons has the earmarks of a dictatorial regime-in-the-making.
> 
> This would seem preposterous, of course — until it’s not.
> 
> Since retaining minority government control in 2019, the Trudeau Liberals have used the coronavirus pandemic as a convenient smokescreen to effectively take full control of all spending, taxation, corporate nationalization, and a host of other policies.
> 
> But the last thing a government needs if considering a takeover of its own democratic country is an armed civilian population.
> 
> This would have to be minimalized.
> 
> Justin Trudeau, an admitted admirer of China’s communist government — as well as the Marxist doctrines of Fidel Castro — would know this better than most because he was taught on his daddy’s knee.Traditional media in Canada has taken a beating. Deep corporate downsizing due to the theft of adverting revenues and content by behemoths like Google and Facebook means news organizations no longer have the staff or the veteran journalists necessary to do much beyond covering the significant stories dominating the public’s attention.
> 
> But gun numbers are not insignificant.
> 
> There are upwards of 20 million guns legally owned by Canadians for hunting, recreation, competition, protection, collection, and predator control.
> 
> As of April 30, there were more than 2.2 million Canadian men and women with a firearms licence authorized by the RCMP.
> 
> There are 75,634 legally-registered AR-15 rifles, wrongly condemned by Trudeau for political exploitation in the wake of the Nova Scotia rampage as military-grade assault rifles — which they aren’t.
> 
> The AR in AR-15 does not stand for “assault rifle.” In fact, it stands for ArmaLite Rifle, Colt’s Manufacturing LLC’s way of honouring of the company that developed it back in the 1950s.
> 
> There are 300,000 Canadians with a firearms licence who own at least one legally-registered handgun.


https://torontosun.com/opinion/colu...QdWKgjdDGbIJZWliUnSPRa_GHdC91HGki7sLfybnEJLzc


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

What could possible go wrong?

Trudeau government to give Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs power over natural resources



> A draft agreement between the Trudeau government and the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs will give the hereditary chiefs sweeping powers over natural resource development.
> 
> The draft memorandum of understanding (MOU) obtained by CBC will transfer many powers to the hereditary chiefs and give them legal recognition to speak on behalf of the Wet’suwet’en people.


More:



> Throughout January and February, a group of Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs led protests against the Coastal GasLink pipeline which is being built within their traditional territory.


About 110% of BC's area is currently under land ownership dispute. Does that mean that every piece of development province wide is under dispute?


----------



## FeXL

Three meat-packing plants turn out 85% of Canada’s beef. How did this happen?



> Outbreaks of COVID-19 at Canada’s two largest meat-packing plants have reverberated across the beef industry, causing a backlog of roughly 100,000 cattle, all of them now stuck on farms and costing ranchers hundreds of millions in extra feed and lost revenues.
> 
> The backlog has also renewed concerns about the lack of diversification in Canadian beef processing, which some say is due to the realities of North American supply chains, and perhaps a long-ago regulation made to stop the spread of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), better known as mad cow disease.
> 
> The vast majority of all Canadian-raised cattle are slaughtered and processed by a few massive plants owned by two multinationals: Cargill Inc. and JBS SA.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.
> 
> What could possible go wrong?
> 
> Trudeau government to give Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs power over natural resources
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> About 110% of BC's area is currently under land ownership dispute. Does that mean that every piece of development province wide is under dispute?


So aristocracy over elected representatives? Sweet. Trudeau is not only an arsehole, he has simply become another culture jammer, devising crises to ensure that social unrest is the order of the day.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> So aristocracy over elected representatives?


The problem is, a good portion of our elected representatives _are_ aristocracy (as close as we can come in Canada) and the other half wants to be!


----------



## SINC

If you thinks this "who's the real chiefs bit" is over, think again.

*Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs call for minister's resignation*



> Elected Wet'suwet'en chiefs are asking for the immediate resignation of Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister Carolyn Bennett over an agreement between Ottawa, B.C. and hereditary chiefs, which they claim was drafted without their consent.
> 
> In a joint statement released on Monday, four elected chiefs call on the B.C. and federal governments to reject the memorandum of understanding (MOU) on rights and title with hereditary chiefs and restart the negotiation process to include the elected leadership.
> 
> The draft MOU lays out the steps to transfer jurisdiction of Wet'suwet'en territory to traditional governance, including land, water and revenue-sharing.
> 
> The agreement would give hereditary chiefs significant leverage over future resource development according to a copy of the document obtained by CBC News.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/st...hK5PlNEwEMBJjDONCisoX49T34Cigpf7I0pnex54tRX68


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Good enough for gov't work...

'Do not impose a stop pay': Federal workers ordered to ignore cheating in CERB and EI claims



> Federal employees vetting the millions of applications for emergency and employment-insurance (EI) benefits during the pandemic have been told to ignore most potential cases of cheating, despite reports of widespread fraud.
> 
> If employees detect possible abuse they should still process the payment and should not refer the file to the department’s integrity branch, says a memo issued last month by Employment and Social Development Canada.
> 
> It’s unclear whether anyone would be available to investigate the questionable cases, anyway. The memo says the department has suspended “compliance and enforcement” of the EI program, which is helping manage Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) payments.


Never let a crisis go to waste without some good, ol' fashioned Lieberal vote buying.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Read: Maths is hard! We don't have a clew...

Feds say cost of carbon taxes a 'secret'



> While the Trudeau government is notorious for refusing to answer questions from the opposition parties and media, it has now escalated this practice to a simultaneously alarming and absurd level of secrecy.
> 
> Agriculture Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau and Prosperity Minister Mona Fortier have refused to answer questions from the Conservatives on the cost of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s carbon tax to farmers, with the government claiming it’s a secret neither Parliament nor the public has a right to know.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> New country. Just sayin’.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

As usual, Rex nails it.

We need to get the House of Commons back, now



> Government by morning announcement and emptying the treasury by the billions nearly every day is a travesty


More:



> If Costco can open, I surely do not understand why the House of Commons of the Canadian nation cannot, as well.


If the Lieberals had their way, Costco would be closed, too.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

REVEALED: Trudeau's office decides which media outlets get to ask him questions 



> Many have speculated that the Parliamentary Press Gallery is controlled by the PMO. Speculations became reality when Justin Trudeau hired the Press Gallery’s President, Terry Guillon, as his media enforcer.
> 
> Terry’s new job was the same as his old one: to keep Ottawa’s reporters whipped.
> 
> He has been doing that ever since.


----------



## SINC

When all the **** that will one day fall on Trudeau, he will surely wind up in jail.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-philpott-says-trudeaus-involved-in-a-cover-up


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> When all the **** that will one day fall on Trudeau, he will surely wind up in jail.


One can only hope...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend.

Trudeau government lost track of deficit after unprecedented spending



> The Trudeau government has spent such a large sum of money over such a short period of time that they are unable to determine what the deficit is, according to Blacklock's Reporter.
> 
> Speaking to the Commons Finance Committee, Budget Officer Yves Giroux said that "it’s very difficult to estimate what is a likely deficit figure given that details are missing for some of these potentially very expensive measures."


Related:

Trudeau scoffs at questions about hundreds of millions in fraudulent payments



> We could be sending out as much as $400 million per month in fraudulent emergency payments but the federal government isn’t doing anything to stop it.
> 
> Instead, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is attacking those asking questions.


Related, too:

CBC pundit received tens of thousands in taxpayer dollars from Trudeau government



> CBC pundit Professor Carissima Mathen was paid tens of thousands of dollars by the CBC, Blacklock's Reporter has found.
> 
> The payments, made by the Privy Council Office, were made to the tune of $24,750.


Related, 3:

Ottawa's COVID-19 debt binge runs very real risk of ruining the next generation



> Trudeau is making the government’s response look easy, disbursing billions of dollars hither and thither. This is a government that relishes spending, after all


More:



> National Bank Financial warned this week that Canada’s triple-A credit rating could come under review because combined federal and provincial deficits this year could add up to $350 billion, or 20 per cent of GDP.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend.

Your Government Is Here To Bankrupt You



> Holy hot hell. Justin Trudeau extended the "Emergency Wage Benefit" for THREE MORE MONTHS.
> The federal government will pay 75% of millions of Canadians wages.
> *We will undoubtedly hit 1 Trillion this year, and future generations are ****ed. That's it. We're done.*
> 
> — Keean Bexte (@TheRealKeean) May 15, 2020​
> I’m old enough to remember when veterans were asking for “more than we can give”.


Bold mine.

Yeppers.

Congratulations to all of you who voted for this disaster in the making! You should be proud that you've put your children & grandchildren into indentured servitude...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Your Government Is Here For You



> You raised the carbon tax on Canadian farmers by 50% last month.
> 
> Not on foreign food imports. Just on Canadian food.
> 
> And you just gave $50,000,000 to fast-track cheap foreign labourers to take Canadian farm jobs, ahead of unemployed Canadians.
> 
> Go back to your Netflix and bong. https://t.co/Zurat9xlnT
> 
> — Ezra Levant 🇨🇳🦠 (@ezralevant) May 16, 2020​


----------



## SINC

Salim Mansur: Call To Prayer and the Rule Of Law



> When mayors and city councillors favour one group ahead of the rest, the rest need to sound the alarm. To warn its residents and taxpayers that the rule of law has been subverted.
> 
> If not checked and reversed, then the rule of law, which binds people together in our beloved democracy, will unravel and eventually break.
> 
> The raging controversy surrounding the public Call to Prayer during Ramadan is an example of local politicians privileging one group of people, in this instance, based on their religion, over the rest.
> 
> Given the ongoing pandemic and shutdown of the economy, this should not be prioritized.
> 
> In any political setting, there are at least two sets of actors. In this Call to Prayer controversy, there are at a minimum three sets of actors.
> 
> There are the municipal councillors and the mayors, religious Muslims charged with mosque-related activities, and the rest of the residents and taxpayers from these municipalities.
> 
> The public has been informed during the lockdown that apart from those working in designated essential services, everyone else needs to abide by the rules and by-laws (including noise by-law) for this period, promulgated and enforced by the three levels of government.
> 
> People have been warned of penalties if these rules are broken, all the while religious institutions are prohibited from performing service to their congregation. This is especially true during the most significant occasions in their faith.
> 
> As we have witnessed, churches were not allowed to hold Easter services on Good Friday and Easter Sunday. Christians were denied gatherings in churches, as were the Jews in synagogues for Passover.
> 
> But now, we see an exception unilaterally granted by municipal authorities in Mississauga and in the Greater Toronto Area, in granting permission – or in not enforcing the requisite rules and by-laws during the lockdown – to mosques allowing the Islamic Call for Prayer during Ramadan.
> 
> Why the exception was made has yet to be explained by the respective authorities.
> 
> If the rationale was to accommodate the religious practices of Muslims, then why haven't such accommodations been extended to Christians, Jews, and other religious groups?
> 
> Why was this request from religious institutions not foreseen and allowance made equally for all religions when the authorities were engaged in writing the by-laws and voting on them?
> 
> With municipal governments engaging in political favouritism, they openly insult non-Muslims by not considering its consequences long term for a secular society.
> 
> Speaking from experience, the authoritarian decision-making was advocated by the vocal sub-set of Islamists who administrate mosques across Canada.
> 
> The Islamist mindset is not about religion as a private matter between man and God or in a communal setting where ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters' pray. It is about religion, Islam, as a politicized weapon to be wielded for Islamist supremacy over non-Muslims and other Muslims that are not of their tribe.
> 
> The Call to Prayer in public is a matter of tradition and not doctrinal faith.
> 
> The first requirement of tradition in a pluralist society, however, ought to be respect for others and earning their goodwill for the maintenance of peace and order across all peoples.
> 
> Canada is not Turkey or Iran, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Mississauga and the GTA are not Istanbul, Cairo, or Karachi, where thousands of mosques issue the Call for Prayer five times a day. The Muslim majority populations of these countries take this tradition for granted as a signature item to their respective cultures.
> 
> In Canada, like elsewhere in western liberal democracies, Islamists are bent upon pushing their supremacist agenda for a parallel Sharia-based society in the name of politically weaponized Islam. It is this agenda that is at play in the Call for Prayer controversy.
> 
> Through the guise of multiculturalism, under section 27 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the stealth jihad of Islamists in the Call to Prayer becomes obligatory, as is adorning the hijab/niqab for Muslim women.
> 
> Muslims not disposed to Islamists, or are unwilling to engage publicly in opposing Islamists for any number of reasons, of which fear of Islamists within their mosque community is uppermost, are taken for granted by Islamists because they will not protest openly against the Islamist agenda.
> 
> Consequently, by default and through intimidation of non-Islamist Muslims, the Islamists claim authority as the sole representatives of Islam.
> 
> Those politicians and political parties reaching out to Islamists and coordinating with Islamist policies, as in this case of accommodating Call to Prayer, have empowered them to speak for and represent Muslims in general while ignoring Muslim opinion that is anti-Islamist.
> 
> In municipalities where the Call to Prayer has minimally aroused negative views, the question, or concern, is if there are enough people prepared to challenge the authorities on the unfairness of giving special allowance for Muslims when such allowance is not extended to others.
> 
> Unless enough, if not a majority, of the public, express their strong disapproval of how the rule of law is bent for Muslims in general, the privileging of Islam over other religious traditions in Canada, a secular liberal democracy, will proceed unchecked.
> 
> So, what keeps the majority of the Canadian public not sufficiently moved to express strongly their disapproval of what their politicians are bent on doing?
> 
> Again, the answer is not difficult or obscure. Enough members of the public are both lacking in information and understanding of the situation. They are fearful of expressing publicly any politically incorrect opinion, which would then bring about accusations of bigotry directed at them by the mainstream media and the politicians who exploit such tensions to their advantage.
> 
> Non-Muslims concerned by these tensions primarily ask, as many ask me, why is it that those Muslims who disagree with Islamists, and if they are a majority, not publicly oppose Islamists? This is a fair question.
> 
> But then it is a question which can be asked of the public at large, who are a majority in the majority non-Muslim country: Why is the majority not sufficiently moved to disapprove such political favouritism and hold their representatives accountable firmly?
> 
> The failure of the Canadian public to defend the rule of law, as we witnessed while it’s most egregious undermining by Justin Trudeau and his Liberal government during the SNC-Lavalin affair in the 2019 election, inevitably has grave consequences.
> 
> When politicians and elected authorities can get away with subverting the rule of law, as is happening, and for which they are not held to account, we witness our country descend further into the chaos of unbridled identitarianism.
> 
> Countries with authoritarian leanings lack a culture of democracy and freedom, as do most Muslim-majority countries. And this is the direction where Canada is headed as we concede to the Islamist agenda.


https://thenationaltelegraph.com/op...b6ZpsvPAfMB9cJICLr2vIx1YmbW8VOH6xmEiCSE9sAjmg


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Luvs me that meme.

Trudeau has courted 28 leaders over UN Security Council since pandemic started



> During this time, Canada has suffered through a global pandemic that has since killed over 5,000 Canadians and a lockdown that has forced over 7 million Canadians into unemployment.
> 
> Despite this, Trudeau still managed to discuss his ambitions of sitting on the UN Security Council with leaders from across the world.


Related:

Canada’s road to UN Security Council seat goes through Fiji



> Leaders contacted since March have included those in Saint Lucia, Fiji, Kenya, Rwanda, Sweden, Colombia, Ghana, Sudan, Qatar, Jamaica and Ethiopia, among others


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Luvs me that meme.
> 
> Trudeau has courted 28 leaders over UN Security Council since pandemic started
> 
> 
> 
> Related:
> 
> Canada’s road to UN Security Council seat goes through Fiji


The fact that the TrueDope wants a Security Council Seat should be an automatic dis-qualifier.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> The fact that the TrueDope wants a Security Council Seat should be an automatic dis-qualifier.


It would be to anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together...


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## eMacMan

Is everyone missing the obvious here? I mean as much as I hate credit cards and all the BS that surrounds flying today, if I were to book a flight I would use a credit card. Airline fails to deliver, you refuse to pay them, and the Credit Card company should back you up, issue a refund, then fight it out with the airline. The Airline should have no say whatsoever in the matter. Otherwise what's the point of using a credit card?

https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...-19/wcm/30a8d517-9cd0-4146-bd84-61b8f0f5cd52/



> OTTAWA — A growing chorus of voices is demanding Ottawa force airlines to reimburse cash-strapped travellers the cost of trips that were cancelled because of the pandemic, rather than offering a 24-month travel credit.
> 
> Just on Wednesday, support for a House of Commons petition demanding the federal government require airlines to refund trips jumped from 500 in the morning to well _(sic)_ nearly 5,900 by late afternoon.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> ...


----------



## eMacMan

*O'Henry the Irony*

For those O'Henry fans out there, here is a delicious real life example of irony.
https://news.yahoo.com/china-doesnt-seem-understand-independence-164625906.html



> OTTAWA (Reuters) - China does not appear to understand that Canada's judiciary is independent, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said on Thursday, taking a rare public swipe at Beijing at a time when bilateral ties are poor.
> 
> China says Canada must free Huawei Technologies Co Ltd Chief Financial Officer Meng Wanzhou, who is fighting extradition to the United States. She was arrested in the province of British Columbia in December 2018.
> 
> Canadian officials have repeatedly said they cannot intervene in the case.
> 
> *"Canada has an independent judicial system that functions without interference or override by politicians," Trudeau told a daily briefing.*


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> For those O'Henry fans out there, here is a delicious real life example of irony.
> https://news.yahoo.com/china-doesnt-seem-understand-independence-164625906.html


Except of course where it involves Trudeau and SNC Lavalin. Then it can be bent any which way he chooses. So, it would seem that not only China does not understand our legal system. Every Liberal cabinet minister does not either.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Meme says it all.

Amnesty International, usual suspects call on Canada to open border to refugees from the U.S.



> As countries around the world close their borders to contain the spread of COVID-19, Amnesty International is calling on Canada to set an example of humane treatment of refugees and open its borders to asylum seekers from the U.S.
> 
> In an open letter signed by, among others, former Liberal cabinet ministers Lloyd Axworthy and Allan Rock, Amnesty International urges Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to show “much needed global leadership when it comes to providing meaningful human rights protection for migrants and refugees.”


Related:

Canada will need newcomers after coronavirus pandemic, immigration minister says



> The role immigrant labour is playing to keep the country moving during the COVID-19 pandemic is proof of why robust immigration must continue in the aftermath, federal Immigration Minister Marco Mendicino said Friday.
> 
> While the health and safety of Canadians must be assured before the doors of the country can be opened as widely again, they will be, Mendicino said.
> 
> *He believes Canadians would want it that way.*


Nope.

Related, too:

Feds provide $50 million to help temporary foreign workers self-isolate



> Canadian seniors get $300
> Migrant workers $1,500
> Foriegn students $2,000 a month
> 
> Only one of those groups pays taxes
> 
> Feds provide millions to help temporary foreign workers self-isolate https://t.co/pM2pldUqNW via @ipoliticsca
> 
> — Bill Tufts – Support Our Communities (@BillTufts) May 17, 2020​


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> The role immigrant labour is playing to keep the country moving during the COVID-19 pandemic is proof of why robust immigration must continue in the aftermath, federal Immigration Minister Marco Mendicino said Friday.
> 
> While the health and safety of Canadians must be assured before the doors of the country can be opened as widely again, they will be, Mendicino said.
> 
> He believes Canadians would want it that way.



With unemployment at near zero and domestic wages that need to be depressed, let's open the doors!


----------



## eMacMan

> Canadian seniors get $300
> Migrant workers $1,500
> Foriegn students $2,000 a month


Interesting neither wife nor I have seen any sign of that $300. As a matter of fact we have not even seen our notices of assessment let alone our carbon ripoff rebate.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> With unemployment at near zero and domestic wages that need to be depressed, let's open the doors!


Just...clueless.

Perhaps the Laurentian Elite want it that way, but the other 90% of the country's population is just trying to make ends meet, thankyouverymuch.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution: Coupla links to MotherCorpse inside.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Goosed Ganders



> “Biting political satire” becomes “that which must not be seen” in 4… 3… 2…


Better'n P!$$ Christ, ain't it? All it needs is a bit o' blackface...

Scroll down for the full image.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

This just p!$$es me off... tptptptp

Liberal, Conservative and New Democratic parties apply for federal wage subsidy as donations dry up



> Spokespeople for the Conservative Party of Canada, the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party told CBC News that they all have applied to the Canada emergency wage subsidy program to help them cover their employees’ salaries as political donations dry up.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Trudeau falls short of echoing US condemnation of China's Hong Kong power grab



> When asked about Hong Kong, and the strict measures that Beijing has imposed, eliminating the long-standing one country two nations system, Trudeau was hesitant to condemn Beijing's actions.


'Course not! Can't bite the hand that's feeding him...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.
> 
> This just p!$$es me off... tptptptp
> 
> Liberal, Conservative and New Democratic parties apply for federal wage subsidy as donations dry up
> 
> 
> 
> Spokespeople for the Conservative Party of Canada, the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party told CBC News that they all have applied to the Canada emergency wage subsidy program to help them cover their employees’ salaries as political donations dry up.
Click to expand...

Given their total failure to reign in the TrueDope despite a minority government, I see no reason why their employees should fare any better than other Canadians. Add their names to the unemployment dole instead. 

Better yet add the entire Parliamentary structure to that list. Why are they getting paid exorbitant salaries, to sit at home doing nothing, while small Canadian businesses are being put out of business, via their legislation?


----------



## SINC

BREAKING: Judge Rules AGAINST Meng Wanzhou

https://www.spencerfernando.com/202...djZvPJzAAo3eorHci2iDiPdcRzmJb1fSGDtWElm4jMNfU


----------



## eMacMan

There is no question in my mind, that had she not blasted her own feet into oblivion, Danielle Steele would have made a much better Premier than Conman Kenney.
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/c...rks/wcm/c5db0fa5-1e30-4a15-b243-e296690f6e17/





> ....
> The military report from Quebec also helps to understand why COVID-19 deaths in that province have reached catastrophic levels. The COVID-19 crisis in Canada has been largely a long-term care crisis. Independent journalist Nora Loreto has beentracking deaths attributed to COVID-19 in nursing homes. As of May 23, she traced 5,841 of 6,765 deaths — 86 per cent — to long-term care sites and up to 3,800 in Quebec alone.
> .....
> _*If governments had been more focused on keeping COVID-19 out of nursing homes, instead of micromanaging every aspect of our lives, in theory, we could have had fewer than 1,000 COVID-19 deaths in Canada and only 35 in Alberta.*_
> 
> Remember that when you read stories of people being harassed and given tickets for protesting the lockdown at the legislature, or gathering in the park, or playing soccer drills with their kids, or operating comedy clubs.
> 
> Maybe the army of enforcement officers policing low-risk activities across the province should be redeployed to our nursing homes to give front-line reports on what is happening in all of them. If you want to address the real issues and save lives, that’s the place to start.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Here's one from Feb that got lost in the Chinese coronavirus FUBAR.

Trudeau breaches federal ethics rules yet again, missing deadline for financial statement



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has run afoul of federal ethics rules yet again — this time missing the deadline for filing a financial disclosure statement with the ethics commissioner.
> 
> Every MP is required to file a disclosure statement within 60 days of his or her election being published in the Canada Gazette; in Trudeau’s case, the deadline was Jan. 13.


More:



> *The Prime Minister’s Office says the failure to file was an administrative oversight that is being corrected.*
> The compliance status report, available on the ethics commissioner’s website, is to be updated again Wednesday.


Guess he didn't check his mail whilst hiding under his bed in the cottage.

In addition, I wonder how that excuse would fly on my tax form?


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Here's one from Feb that got lost in the Chinese coronavirus FUBAR.
> 
> Trudeau breaches federal ethics rules yet again, missing deadline for financial statement
> 
> More:
> 
> Guess he didn't check his mail whilst hiding under his bed in the cottage.
> 
> I addition, I wonder how that excuse would fly on my tax form?


Not sure about our end, as we filed our taxes back in early April. However so far we have received no 'Notice of Assessment', and have seen zero evidence of that Carbon tax rebate promised by the Truedope. Ditto for that $300 he promised us seniors. So it looks like what is good for the Prime Idiot goes for the CRA as well.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

'Course not! This is all for the optics anyways. Lieberals can say they introduced legislation but received no support for it, therefore it's a closed deal. Win/win.

NDP won’t support Liberal bill that would jail, fine CERB fraudsters



> The Trudeau Liberals’ push for changes to a key benefit for workers affected by the COVID-19 pandemic hit political roadblocks as the New Democrats withdrew support for a draft bill that would fine or imprison people who made fraudulent claims.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Tuesday the legislation would enact punishments for those who knowingly and wrongfully claimed the $2,000-a-month benefit — not those who simply made mistakes in good faith.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Not so Honourable, er... Member



> Liberal Party membership apparently has it's privileges...
> 
> _ You would think that when *a sitting MP is arrested, jailed overnight, and set for a criminal trial* on multiple serious charges, somebody would be told about it.
> 
> *You would be wrong.*
> 
> Marwan Tabbara had been chair of the House of Commons *subcommittee on international human rights* until this week, but he has now resigned from the role._​
> This just gets better and better.


My tax $$$ at work...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Guess they didn't like his socks. Maybe his har was out of place. Perhaps his eyebrow drooped. Or they didn't like his goat-thing. Whatever it was, it's all Harper's fault, wasn't it, Blackie...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Trudeau Fails, Fewer Votes Than Harper



> Trudeau sold our nation’s soul in the attempt to win this seat, which I detail here, but he not only lost, he got six fewer votes than Harper and Canada was bounced on the first ballot instead of the third.


Guess the rest of the planet isn't nearly as gullible as many Canadians.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

The only bad thing is how many billions of taxpayer $$$ he pi$$ed away in the process.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

How bad is it when even the communist UN throws down Canada's first post-national Prog PM?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I'm going to sit down & have a nice, tall, cold glass of schadenfreude. English bitter, perhaps?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Further on failed UN appointments.

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Even the 24/7 Justin Network...



> ... called it *"an intense and costly diplomatic push"*...


When you've lost MotherCorpse...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Macfury

That sad sack still hopes to be head of the UN some day.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> That sad sack still hopes to be head of the UN some day.


I believe he has shown a sufficient level of incompetence and blatant bias, to make a claim of being over qualified.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> Not sure about our end, as we filed our taxes back in early April. However so far we have received no 'Notice of Assessment', and have seen zero evidence of that Carbon tax rebate promised by the Truedope. Ditto for that $300 he promised us seniors. So it looks like what is good for the Prime Idiot goes for the CRA as well.


Finally got our notices of assessment more than 2 months after we filed our taxes. Also the $732 check from the 'Carbon con incentive'. So far no sign of that $300 check to seniors.

In any case the two together would not even cover the $100/month extra that groceries are costing us. Never mind the big bump in protection racket premiums. Most of those extra costs relate to the Trudope's carbon tax and taking a thermonuclear device to the economy to protect us from the common cold.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Even more LMAO at Juthdin's UN defeat!

How Do You Like My Socks?



> Trudeau’s pursuit of the UN seat was bigger than him — it was a manifestation of a larger ideological narrative on the Canadian left that Insists all foreigners love Canada and international institutions crave Canadian leadership. Both myths swatted down by an indifferent world.
> 
> — J.J. McCullough (@JJ_McCullough) June 18, 2020​
> Blame Harper: _“But the reality was, coming in five years later than them gave us a delay that we unfortunately weren’t able to overcome. I was hoping we would, and we certainly worked hard to do it.”_
> 
> Captain Obvious, writing at Macleans: _Believing a win at the UN would fall from the heavens on Trudeau because he wasn’t Harper was an expression of the narcissism and shallowness that have characterized this government during much of its time in office_


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

Let's talk the Meethead some!

Jagmeet Singh ejected from Commons after calling BQ MP racist over blocked RCMP motion



> NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh called a Bloc Quebecois MP racist Wednesday after a New Democrat motion on RCMP discrimination failed to receive unanimous consent from the House of Commons.
> 
> Singh refused to apologize for the words directed at Bloc member Alain Therrien. That prompted the Speaker to order Singh to leave the House for the rest of the day.


First off, it's nice to see at least one MP has a spine.

Related:

Legislative Blackmail



> Vote for my intellectually insulting, virtue signalling motion or you’re a racist.


Comments salient.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The Libranos: Bridges To Nowhere



> @PierrePoilievre
> 
> Government still can’t give a list of all 53,122 projects it claims to have begun.
> 
> Liberal politicians can’t explain it. So let us ask physicists: Is it scientifically possible for an infrastructure project to vanish into thin air?​


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Mischief Is Important



> LIKE SON, LIKE FATHER. Someone painted blackface on a statue of Justin Trudeau’s father, Pierre. Honestly, the cop seems to have trouble keeping a straight face as he talks about it — especially when a reporter asks if it’s a “hate crime”. pic.twitter.com/R9jr3kOXMa
> 
> — Ezra Levant 🍁 (@ezralevant) June 18, 2020


More like step-dad. Hilarious, anyways. :lmao:

Related (in this cartoon, he looks like his real father, right down to the cute little pillbox cap. Just needs a brim & green colour...):


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Brace yourself for brutal tax hikes — and not just for the rich



> Brace yourself! Massive financial support and unconstrained spending to counter an economic shutdown will lead to painful tax hikes.
> 
> In terms of policy and politics, taxes come in two kinds: those that may be popular but generate precious little funds and hurt the economy and those that can generate substantial revenue but are sure vote-losers. Let’s take a wild guess that the government will prioritize its own political survival because of both a profound sense of entitlement and an equally deep belief that its Conservative opposition is not only unqualified to lead the country but is fundamentally evil. Since the end justifies the means in a Manichean battle, the prime minister may implement both types of tax increase — but with careful attention to the sequence.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Brace yourself for brutal tax hikes — and not just for the rich



Was wondering what the third link in the trifecta was? Here we have it.

1. Billionaires make out like robber barons selling short when the puppeteers crash the world economy.

2. Billionaires make another killing selling 7 billion doses of Covid Vaccine version 19. Then immediately double, treble and quadruple down with Service Packs 1, 2 and 3.

3. Banksters collect again as governments bump taxes to cover all that interest on their ballooning national debts.


----------



## FeXL

eMacMan said:


> Was wondering what the third link in the trifecta was? Here we have it.


Yep. Helluva racket.


----------



## Macfury

Down, boy!

https://www.fitchratings.com/resear...anada-ratings-to-aa-outlook-stable-24-06-2020



> *Fitch Ratings - New York - 24 Jun 2020: Fitch Ratings has downgraded Canada's Long-Term Foreign Currency Issuer Default Rating (IDR) to 'AA+' from 'AAA'. The Rating Outlook is Stable.*
> 
> The rating downgrade reflects the deterioration of Canada's public finances in 2020 resulting from the coronavirus pandemic. Canada will run a much expanded general government deficit in 2020 and emerge from recession with much higher public debt ratios. The higher deficit is largely driven by public spending to counteract a sharp fall in output as parts of the economy were shuttered to contain the spread of the coronavirus. Although this will support recovery, the economy's investment and growth prospects face challenges.


----------



## eMacMan

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/lo...est/wcm/ebd7ad64-5663-446d-b004-9d0c2f17162d/

Watched the dash cam video of this. The chief certainly did his part to provoke the Mounties. That said the Mountie who handled it from the beginning remained calm and courteous and never took the bait. His buddy who rushed in late was the one ultimately responsible for the mayhem.

That said I have never bought the argument that skinning a cops knuckles with your face should be called assaulting an officer. The judge was correct in deep-sixing the charges.


----------



## FUXL

Happy Canada Day y'all!

Howz Alburtan separation comin' along those of you who are traitors? At least those of you who are left in the province. We’re starting to see an exodus of young well educated IT types from tarsandia.


----------



## CubaMark

*Rideau Hall: Canadian Armed Forces member arrested after breaching PM's estate*










An armed member of Canada's military has been arrested after driving a pick-up truck through the gates of an estate where Prime Minister Justin Trudeau lives, police say.

The suspect used his vehicle to breach the main entrance of Rideau Hall in Ottawa early on Thursday morning.

He then entered the grounds on foot before being confronted by police.

The man was arrested at 08:30 local time (12:30 GMT) without incident. He is in custody, with charges pending.

Mr Trudeau and his family, whose cottage is on the Rideau Hall estate, were not at home at the time of the incident.

Nor was Governor General Julie Payette, who resides at Rideau Hall as the official representative of Queen Elizabeth II, Canada's head of state.

* * *​
Pictures taken outside Rideau Hall appear to show damage to its main pedestrian gate, which the suspect rammed through in his vehicle. The vehicle was disabled on impact, the RCMP said.

Other pictures show an empty black pick-up truck inside the grounds of the estate. The RCMP said an army unit with a bomb-disposal robot searched the vehicle as a precaution.

(BBC)​

*Military reservist in custody after Rideau Hall armed incident wanted to speak to PM*

The man taken into police custody following an “armed” incident on the grounds of Rideau Hall early Thursday morning is a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, officials say.

Sources tell Global News that the suspect was a member of the Canadian Rangers, a group of reservists responsible for patrolling Canada’s North.

Sources also say the man had multiple firearms — one rifle and two shotguns — and that he told police he did not want to hurt them or anyone there. One source said the man indicated he wanted to speak to the prime minister and send him a message. He surrendered to police peacefully.​​

The man said he had recently lost his job and expressed frustration about government payouts amid the coronavirus pandemic. He said Ottawa wasn’t doing enough, according to sources.

* * *​
the man broke through the gate to the grounds with his vehicle around 6:30 AM and then walked to a greenhouse structure on the grounds “where he was rapidly contained by RCMP members who were on patrol in the area.”

“While an RCMP member began dialogue with the suspect, the RCMP National Division Emergency Response Team was also dispatched and arrived shortly after 7 AM,” the RCMP said.

“The armed suspect was apprehended shortly before 8:30 am without any incident and he was brought into police custody for questioning …










(GlobalNews)​


----------



## eMacMan

Justa TrueDope's globalist and bankster puppet masters are certainly giving high fives all around.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/econ...ada/wcm/e650f57a-df59-45d2-8d11-961a65bfcb0f/

The real tragedy is that the TrueDope had only to look at the numbers from Wuhan to conclude that destroying the nations economy was not only a very dumb idea but entirely unnecessary. But that of course would have required basic math skills, something the globalists have worked hard to eradicate over the past 40 or 50 years.



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set release his first estimate of the full cost of the multiphase effort to buffer Canada from its deepest recession since the 1930s.
> 
> Trudeau’s finance minister, Bill Morneau, will provide a fiscal update Wednesday that’s expected to show a current-year deficit of at least $250 billion, or 12 per cent of economic output. The gap last year was about 1 per cent of gross domestic product.
> 
> The Globe and Mail newspaper reported late Tuesday the figure will exceed $300 billion. No other major advanced economy tracked by the International Monetary Fund is expected to record a larger one-year fiscal swing in 2020.
> 
> While the massive shortfall has broad political support, it’s dramatic departure for a country with a longstanding aversion to debt and leaves Canada with the prospect of running large deficits for years to come. Morneau, the first finance minister to oversee a credit rating downgrade in 25 years, is under pressure to provide at least cursory assurances the government will return to a more fiscally prudent path once the coronavirus crisis has passed.


Of course Bill Gates has made it abundantly clear that WHO has no intention of allowing the planned-panicdemic crisis to pass. Well maybe after Gates and a few other billionaires make it into the trillionaire category via a forced worldwide Corona vaccination program with monthly service pack updates.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

$10,000/head. Is that enough spending for you Progs or do you need a little more?

Justin Trudeau’s $221 Billion Deficit Marks New Debt Era for Canada



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set to release his first estimate of the full cost of the effort to buffer Canada from its deepest recession since the 1930s.
> 
> Trudeau’s finance minister, Bill Morneau, will provide a fiscal update Wednesday that’s expected to show a current-year deficit of more than C$300 billion ($221 billion), or about 14% of economic output, BNN Bloomberg television said. The gap last year was about 1% of gross domestic product.


More:



> “*We decided to take on that debt to prevent Canadians from having to do it*,” Trudeau said at a news conference Wednesday morning in Ottawa.


Bold mine.

:yikes:

Is Junior really that f'ing stupid? Don't bother, it's a rhetorical question. It's all gonna balance itself...

Oh, and central & eastern Canada will _still_ vote for the idiot. They want to mortgage the futures of their children & grandchildren, too.

h/t SDA, where the comments knock it out of the park.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Seeing as the Commies on these boards ain't brought it up, let's talk the Liebranos WE scandal some.

The Libranos: Cutting Out The Middle Man



> Chretien was so old school with his brown bags and Liberal friendly ad agencies: _Trudeau says charity with ties to him and his wife ‘only one’ that could run COVID-19 student volunteer grant program_


The Libranos: All In Da Family



> WE Charity co-founder said PMO ‘called’ to award $900M student-grant program, contradicting Trudeau … Trudeau has maintained that the contract was handled by government bureaucrats.


The Libranos: All In Da Family



> That Kielberger kid sure gets around.


The Libranos: It’s A Small World



> Kielburger, clarifying;
> 
> “To be specific, contact came to We Charity the week of April 26th from a Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch at Employment and Social Development Canada.”​
> …”a” Senior Assistant Deputy Minister?


The Libranos: All In Da Family



> PLEASE FORGET YOU EVER SAW OUR SLEAZE: WE Charity won’t be managing Student Grant program, says Minister Chagger’s office.


The Librano Youth



> WE Charity offered camps up to $25K each to recruit volunteers for Liberal grants
> 
> On a recording obtained by National Post of a June 12 video call between WE Charity and over 100 attendees, mostly from summer camp organizations, co-founder Marc Kielburger explained that he was looking for camps who can help WE Charity “move a reasonable volume” of volunteers.
> 
> “If your non-profit camp that could potentially move a reasonable volume of young people, and that for us is about 75-plus young people throughout the summer … there are additional funds that we can provide to you up to $25,000 towards your administration of that towards the camp,” Kielburger explained to attendees of the meeting. […]
> 
> In addition to $25,000 grants to camps who welcomed at least 75 volunteers, WE Charity promised in a posting on its website earlier this week to pay $12,000 to any teacher who recruited at least 75 student volunteers…​
> *In other words, they were going to buy volunteers before paying them.*


Bold mine.

Typical Progs...

Tories won’t try to force election over WE Charity controversy: Poilievre



> MP Pierre Poilievre says the Conservatives aren’t looking to force an election over the Liberal government’s $900-million deal with WE Charity, which was called off on Friday.
> 
> *“We don’t have to,” the Conservative finance critic told reporters.
> 
> “We already got what we asked for*, which was for the government to cancel the program and redirect the funds through the professional public service and make it open and transparent for all organizations.”


Bold mine.

Well, I sure as hell didn't...

Maybe we should have been looking at WE Charity earlier



> In a matter of weeks, We Charity, the group formerly known as Free the Children, has gone from untouchable to an organization under siege. No wonder they reacted the way they did to my very basic questions about their vast real estate holdings.


Ya think, Brian? If it's got Blackface McGroper's grubby Prog paws on it, it needs be investigated. Period...

The WE Charity scandal is far from over



> This isn’t over — not by a long shot. Just because the cozy contract between the Government of Canada and WE Charity has been nullified, doesn’t mean we’re through with this controversy; and just because Marc and Craig Kielburger and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau want to walk away from a mess that seems entirely of their own construction does not mean they should be allowed to do so.
> 
> This is a $900-million program that appears to have been ever so casually passed on to Trudeau’s friends. *A stir arose and now both parties say, “Oh my, how unfortunate this is. If we’d known this would stir a controversy, we would never have agreed to it.”*


Bold mine.

Precisely. The bastards are apologizing only because they got caught.

Yet another ethical car crash in which the Prime Minister is an innocent bystander



> People keep asking Justin Trudeau to do ethically dubious things. Whether it’s requesting he attend private fundraising dinners with Chinese billionaires, or inviting him to vacation on their private Caribbean islands at the same time as they are seeking money from his government, or seeking his help in avoiding prosecution for bribing foreign dictatorships, people keep getting him – him, who only wants to help people – into trouble. People really ought to know better.


Trudeau admits he did not recuse himself from decision to outsource $900 million volunteer grant program to WE Charity



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau admits that he did not recuse himself from the federal cabinet vote to outsource a $900-million student volunteer program to WE Charity, which has close ties to him and his family.
> 
> “The recommendation to use WE to get opportunities out for young people was made by the public service. But as a cabinet, we ratify those decisions,” Trudeau acknowledged for the first time at a news conference on Wednesday.


Shocka...

Sophie's Charity Liner Hits an Iceberg 



> I'd love to have a peek at the Kielburger Kids payroll...
> 
> A financial play that would have made Jean Chretien blush...
> 
> _ The controversial move to outsource the funding to *an organization that has close ties to the Trudeau family* received a large amount of backlash among people in the charitable sector as well as the opposition conservatives.
> 
> When defending the move, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said WE received the work because it was *the only organization that had a network capable of the nationwide distribution* necessary to provide students with the funding._​
> And what's the deal with all those numbered companies?


Links' bold.

<cough>bull$h!t<cough>

Rex Murphy, as usual, has the goods... 



> _"I’ve *stood longer in airports than WE held the strings* on that pile of money."_


Yeppers.

So her journalism/photography career...



> So her journalism/photography career...
> 
> ...didn't exactly work out... what's a dutiful son to do?
> 
> Baby needs a new pair of underpants...
> 
> _ "Trudeau’s mother, Margaret Trudeau, spoke at approximately 28 WE Charity events and was *paid $250,000 in speaking honorariums* between 2016 and 2020. His brother, Alexandre Trudeau, also spoke at eight events from 2017 to 2018 and was *paid a total of approximately $32,000*."
> 
> News of the payments to two members of Trudeau's family seems to contradict WE Charity's earlier claim that it had "*never paid an honorarium*" to Margaret Trudeau._​
> Now, let's take a look at Sophie's lottery ticket.


Nepotism, much?

Et Tu Sophie?



> Yep, Sophie got paid to go to a WE event, not as much as Maggie and Sasha but she got paid.


Everyday, Another Connection



> As they say on those TV infomercials, wait, there’s more……


Yet:

WE, Not You



> Wow!!! I was asked to speak at a We Day and they said we don’t pay our speakers.
> 
> — Theo Fleury (@TheoFleury14) July 9, 2020​


Blackface McSpendy: “I should have recused myself”



> “I’m sorry that my creativeness and caring made the mean people hurt the children. because I only did it for the children.”


:---(

Kinda brings a tear to yer eye, donnit?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

The Libranos: And This Little Morneau Went “WE WE WE WE”



> … all the way to the trough.


Good ol' Porno Willie...

WE-Pay



> Featured Comment from alecincgy;
> 
> WE.org are embedded in the K-12 system, I had no idea how or what WE-DAY was until last year when it came up talking to one of my kids.
> 
> From the financials on the WE website for 2019 they collected $2.3M from governments and a staggering $15.5M from youth. 10% of revenue was spent on admin ($6.5M).
> 
> https://www.we.org/en-CA/about-we/we-charity/governance/financial-reports
> 
> That nice round 10% spent on admin seems high to me. They are proud of their 10% (from their FAQ’s). By comparison the Canadian Red Cross runs at 3% and they provide sweeping services across the country. Other excellent charaties are even more efficiently administered.
> Here is MacLeans list of the top 100 charaties in Canada. I can’t see WE on the list.
> 
> It seems the WE.org expenditures are education and WE projects. They don’t carry reserve cash, they invest in real estate and then mortgage when necessary.
> 
> I honestly hope that with such high annual revenue ($57.9M) that they help large numbers of people (besides the deeply unfortunate Trudeaus and their cronies of course). What would they have done with $900M, or even the $90M in administrative costs (at 10%)?​


The Libranos: Thick As Thieves



> But I repeat myself.
> 
> The We Charity scandal continues to snowball after it was revealed today that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Chief of Staff Katie Telford co-founded a group that worked “in support” of Free the Children, which is a branch of the WE Charity.
> 
> As well as this, Trudeau’s Minister of Natural Resources Seamus O’Regan served as the Honorary Chair of this organization, which was named Artbound.​


WE Charity: “40% of revenue was from outside Canada”



> With @WeCharity in the news, I looked at its funding.
> 
> WE has 2 parts, the charity & the for-profit business.
> 
> As for We Charity, over the past decade it has had total revenue of $433 million.
> 
> In 2019, 40% of @WeCharity revenue was from outside Canada: https://t.co/NcPx4Kvaqa pic.twitter.com/YtJnif6lN2
> 
> — Vivian Krause (@FairQuestions) July 13, 2020​


----------



## FeXL

But, but, but... TAR SANDS!!! 

Which Ones Might Those Be?



> Blacklock’s Reporter: _Enviro minister Jonathan Wilkinson quietly grants 20yr waiver to keep pumping raw sewage into rivers and bays. *20 years. Not a typo*._


Bold mine.

Actually, I think this is great. The turds are floating right past where most of these bastards live. Good...

While we're addressing Prog hypocrisy & stupidity (BIRM), here's a little video [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKETOSXOo8s"]here's a little video[/ame] that highlites the fact that Alberta crude is finally, _finally_, getting processed on the east coast.

And what'll we get from the Progs?

Crickets...

XX)


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Whistleblower describes Facebook interference in Canada’s 2019 election



> Ryan Hartwig worked for years as a censorship contractor for Facebook.
> 
> Hartwig was based in Phoenix, Arizona, one of 1,500 censors working in shifts around the clock, deleting up to 200 post per day, each.
> 
> *One of the jobs that this army of secret censors had was to interfere in the 2019 Canadian federal election.*
> 
> Hartwig and the other Facebook deleters were given specific instructions on what to delete — including certain comments that were critical of NDP leader Jagmeet Singh, or certain criticisms of Canada’s open-borders immigration policy.


More:



> It was all news to me.
> 
> But it’s strange news — *because just this week Trudeau's Liberal government announced there had been no foreign interference in the election*.


'Cauth Thockboy Groperpants McSpendy has his pulse on these sort of things...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Groper McSockBoy & his cadre of Prog idiots have pushed a lot of basic stupidity on Canadians as a whole & western Canadians in particular. This may be the stupidest thing they've proposed thus far.

And, _and_, even if you're a _Prog_ homeowner, this should pi$$ you off. If it doesn't, perhaps you just don't understand...

Comments nail it.

And The Budget Will Balance Itself



> Now is the time at SDA when we juxtapose!
> 
> CBC FACTCHECK, October 2019: The Conservatives’ misleading claims about a ‘secret’ Liberal housing tax
> 
> Blacklocks, July 2020; _CMHC is spending $250,000 researching a first-ever federal home equity tax. *Organizers of the research project earlier likened homeowners to lottery winners whose residences were tax shelters*: “The objective is to identify solutions that could level the playing field between renters and owners.”_


Bold mine.

F'ing idiots.

WEXIT...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And the trough-slurping Liebrano pigs went WE-WE-WE all the way to the bank...

WE Charity Moved Millions To Private Kielburger Company



> The idea that WE Charity was uniquely capable of executing the government’s $912m student volunteer program is challenged by an analysis of their audited financial statements by Charity Intelligence (CI), an independent charity watchdog group that helps donors “give intelligently and have impact with their generosity.”
> 
> CI’s legitimacy as a neutral authority on the charitable sector was recognized by none other than WE Charity itself, who previously used its CI rating to challenge Canadaland’s investigation.


John Ivison: WE scandal has the potential to lead to Humpty Dumpty’s fall



> The public service was not aware that WE faced financial problems when it recommended the charity receive a $900 million contribution agreement with Ottawa to promote student volunteerism, the country’s top bureaucrat told a parliamentary committee.
> 
> Yet the question that remains unanswered is: Did Justin Trudeau and Bill Morneau know about WE’s predicament?
> 
> _My instinct says they did. Bailing out cronies with tax payer money is second nature to Liberals._


Rex Murphy: Freeland has the PM's back. But does she have any answers?



> Like a lot of others I was in sharp suspense in regards to Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland and her thoughts on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
> 
> Apart from actually getting the full story on the realtor/humanitarian Kielburgers and their great-many-million-dollar deal, what most Canadians were really interested in was where the deputy prime minister of Canada stood on the performance of the prime minister.
> 
> (A side-note: from one of my magisterially unreliable sources who is permanently anonymous, “Word around the Hill for a while has been that ‘if CF cuts JT loose, his goose is toast.’ “)
> 
> Well, now we know. Freeland has spoken, at a press briefing on Friday. The prime minister has her full confidence. So he’s good for now.


Trudeau government admits to injecting $5.5 MILLION into WE Charity since 2015



> Though the WE Charity has received millions of dollars in taxpayer revenue from the federal government, that amount has more than doubled since Prime Minister Justin Trudeau took the helm in 2015, according to Global News.


WE Realty



> Brian Lilley;
> 
> Another oddity in the Kielburger/WE real estate world is how often properties trade hands among family members and insiders. The home at 212 Carlton was sold by Mingze Li to Yutain Qi, another WE employee, and again it sold more than $250,000 below the assessed value.
> 
> The family has traded some pieces of real estate multiple times before transferring them to a numbered company for what is recorded as a $0 transaction.
> 
> One accountant, who was asked to review documents related to these and other sales, said questions do arise out of what is public but added more background documents would be required to know if these transactions were more than simply strange.
> 
> Roxanne Joyal, CEO of ME to WE and also wife to Marc Kielburger, owned 1792 Lakeshore Blvd E., which overlooks Woodbine Beach, for seven years, starting in 2007.
> 
> She sold it to Victor Li and his wife in 2014 for $1.56 million. Li sold it to Fred and Theresa Kielburger in 2016 for $1.62 million.
> 
> In November 2018, the Kielburgers transferred the property to a numbered company owned by Kelly Hall-Holland, Craig Kielburger’s mother-in-law, for $0. The home is assessed at more than $1.7 million.​
> Related: Property Brothers.


Ottawa’s WE deal has many parts – and each one contributes to the makings of a scandal



> Like all good scandals, the WE mess is not just one thing but several. It is only one part abuse of process, though that has been the focus of most attention: the rank cronyism, the failure to seek competing offers, the multiple undeclared conflicts of interest, the casual unregistered lobbying of a government that seems almost to invite it by those who stand to profit by it.
> 
> But it is also the elaborate, multitiered design of the program WE was hired to administer, the Canada Student Service Grant, a $912-million scheme to recruit and pay student “volunteers” whose purpose, so far as it can be discerned, seems to have been as much helping students as pumping as much money as possible through the WE sluices, as sloppily as possible.


Canadian Taxpayers dodged a bullet



> _ “It is absolutely shocking that the government would say that they provided a grant to We Charity when in fact they provided the grant or funds to WE Charity Foundation — *a shell corporation with no assets*, no history, no record of charitable work.”
> 
> Blumberg said if WE Charity Foundation had been unable to complete the student volunteer program *the government would have had little recourse to recover any funds.*_​
> Maybe that was the point.
> 
> _ “These new revelations continue to raise serious questions about whether Justin Trudeau’s actions were *the result of corruption* or incompetence.”_


Your money... their friends



> Maggie T is a bi-polar pothead who used to stalk Keith Richards... what's Morneau's daughter's excuse?...
> 
> It gets better...


Yeppers

Bill “Memory Lapse” Morneau oddly just remembered to repay #WeScam $41K for trips

Morneau says he’s made ‘significant’ WE Charity donations, just repaid $41K for trips

Finance Minister Bill Morneau admitted on Wednesday he and his family have made “significant” donations worth tens of thousands of dollars to the controversial WE Charity and only just repaid $41,000 in what he says were previously unknown expenses due to the organization from family trips.

Morneau offered the bombshell testimony during a House of Commons finance committee appearance in which he was pressed over and over again about his role in the cabinet decision to award a now-cancelled sole-sourced contract to the organization to run a new student grant program.

_Just like he forgot his daughters worked for WE or that Chateau in France that slipped his mind.

Bill has a bad memory. He shouldn’t hold a responsible position.

[email protected]_Morneau says he wrote a $41K cheque to WE today for expenses related to his family’s trips with WE. “I had expected & always had intended to pay the full cost of these trips… not doing so, even unknowingly, is not appropriate. I want to apologize for this error,” he said pic.twitter.com/BPEoD6zY0B

— Power & Politics (@PnPCBC) July 22, 2020_

More… Conservatives call for Morneau’s resignation as finance minister says he repaid $41K in WE trip expenses

Blinded by his own privilege, Bill Morneau is painfully out of touch with Canadians

John Ivison: As the WE scandal rises, Bill Morneau can feel himself sinking



> Bill Morneau looked like a drowning man after he revealed to a parliamentary committee that he had received $41,000 in paid travel and hospitality from WE Charity, the organization his government subsequently handed a $900 million contribution agreement.
> 
> The finance minister cut a forlorn figure, at the mercy of wind and tide, as he apologized for what he said was a “serious oversight”.


Poor, poor, Porno Willie...

Journalist paints different picture of WE for MPs



> Claims that WE is similar to a cult, has a culture of systemic racism and has misused charitable funds were just some of the accusations levelled at the charity during testimony at the House of Common Finance Committee on Wednesday.
> 
> The committee was hearing from Jesse Brown, a journalist and publisher of the independent news outlet _Canadaland_.
> 
> Over the past several years, Canadaland produced news stories and podcasts turning a critical eye on WE Charity, a rarity in Canadian media until recently.


WE accused of giving personal data to Trudeau Liberals before 2015 election



> The WE Charity has been accused by a witness in the House of Common's Finance Committee of transferring personal data to the Liberal Party before the 2015 election.
> 
> Speaking in the Finance Committee, journalist Vivian Krause accused the WE organization of engaging in data mining for corporate partners, some of which was later given to the Liberal Party in 2015.


WE denies selling user data



> Researcher Vivian Krause told members of the House of Commons finance committee that there are concerns about WE Charity’s corporate relations.
> 
> Krause told MPs that in 2019 WE Charity’s US tax returns shows $118 million in donations, including major gifts from well-known brands such as Allstate with $32 million, or Microsoft with a $10 million gift.
> 
> She didn’t express concern over WE getting donations from large corporations, *but rather what the corporations got in return.*


Bold mine.

I can hear the slurping from here...

Liberals look to place blame anywhere but Morneau



> don’t know if she’s realized it yet but Bardish Chagger is being set up for a big fall.
> 
> The junior minister in Justin Trudeau’s government has been called out by both backbench MPs and Finance Minister Bill Morneau as the person behind the problematic WE contract.
> 
> “I was not the minister responsible. As I outlined in my prepared remarks that was Minister Chagger,” Morneau told members of the finance committee Wednesday.
> 
> “As to your second question on who signed the document, I’m actually not aware of that. My assumption would be Minister Chagger.”


Butter her. She's toast...

Caution! Link to MotherCorpse inside:

Conservatives call for a 2nd Morneau ethics probe as they demand his resignation



> Conservative ethics critic Michael Barrett has sent a letter to the ethics commissioner asking for another probe of Finance Minister Bill Morneau after the minister revealed yesterday that WE Charity covered $41,000 in travel costs for him and his family in 2017.
> 
> The ethics commissioner, Mario Dion, already has launched an investigation into Morneau’s failure to recuse himself from cabinet talks about awarding the WE Charity a multi-million-dollar contract to administer the summer student grants program. Morneau’s daughter works for WE in its travel department.
> 
> Barrett said Morneau should resign.


Morneau's ME to WE trip of a lifetime to cost him big time



> They bill it as a ‘trip of a lifetime.’
> 
> And considering that Bill Morneau’s visits could result in him being found guilty of again breaking the law, they might be right!
> 
> The ME to WE Lodges are a collection of top-notch resorts that are part of the Kielburger empire.
> 
> Although they promise to put you in touch with the types of projects WE Charity supports, this is very much part of ME to WE — the private business owned by Craig and Marc Kielburger.


‘Why hasn’t Justin Trudeau fired him?’: Tories demand Morneau resign over WE scandal



> The Conservatives renewed their call for Finance Minister Bill Morneau’s resignation Thursday, a day after he revealed he had recently repaid over $41,000 in travel charges to WE Charity.
> 
> “Why hasn’t Justin Trudeau fired him?” Conservative finance critic Pierre Poilievre asked at a Thursday media conference. “Bill Morneau has been hiding this secret for years.”


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

(continued from previous page)

‘This is unacceptable’: Students call out Trudeau government over WE Charity scandal



> Two groups representing thousands of post-secondary students are calling on the Trudeau Liberals to abandon its troubled volunteer program and push its $900-million funding to other student supports.


The Kielburger Family’s Private Real Estate Empire And Its Recent Deal With The City Of Toronto



> The City of Toronto is expected to spend up to almost $10 million over 15 years to lease and renovate a property owned by the parents of Craig and Marc Kielburger, the co-founders of the WE organization. Despite speculation by residents of Toronto’s Cabbagetown neighbourhood, who have pointed to Mayor John Tory’s long relationship with the Kielburgers, a spokesperson for the mayor says he had no involvement in the decision, which was made by City staff without Council approval.
> 
> The property is currently assessed at just under $2.3 million for tax purposes.


Bananada

Look what I just found…@Bill_Morneau at a Pre-Budget Consultation with @WEMovement: https://t.co/ZIMVp5WS8T (2017) pic.twitter.com/EBkxRNIUCu

— Vivian Krause (@FairQuestions) July 24, 2020​
There’s now so much material spewing out about the Kielburger racket, it’s hard to keep pace.

Related:


> _PM @JustinTrudeau says as MP 2008 – 2013 he collected $277,000 in speaking fees. Toronto talent agency @SpeakersDotCa has until July 29 to surrender records to Commons ethics cmte detailing all speaking fees paid to Trudeau family._
> 
> Update: Victor Li is one busy guy.


Kurl: Resigned but angry, Canadians are paying attention to the WE scandal



> In this year especially, reflect for a moment on the corruption of a pronoun once best associated with unity. We are all in this together. We will get through these trying times. We are here for each other. For the Trudeau government, the WE Charity scandal has another connotation: We really, still, after everything, can’t seem to grasp the concept of ethics.
> 
> As with the SNC-Lavalin affair before it, the steady drip drip drip of questions, revelations and apologies associated with the awarding of a massive contract to operate an even more massive student grant program to an organization that boasted tight ties to the families of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Finance Minister Bill Morneau is the political equivalent of water torture. And once again, the Liberals are looking vulnerable as they slog through another mess of their own making.


Rex Murphy: Canada's two most powerful men, blinded by their entitlement



> At this stage of the WE scandal it might be useful to go at it in a negative direction. By which I mean maybe it would be more efficient if we were to ask which leading members of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s cabinet are _not_ in some relationship with the Kielburgers, havenot been speakers at WE events, did _not_ receive a complimentary vacation at WE’s hideously expensive ($4,000 per night) luxury resort in Kenya. Or do _not_ have family members working for WE, or who have _not_ forgotten they owe a woeful chunk of change to some arm of WE’s ever-so-numerous enterprises


The Libranos: And how are WE doing this fine Saturday?



> Alas, still not good.
> 
> Hey, look Margaret, too, travelled to Kenya with WE [in 2017] And that sure looks like Kim Campbell [who chairs Trudeau's Judge selection Committee] in the photo! #cdnpoli pic.twitter.com/VLPIIhuseB
> 
> — Norman Spector (@nspector4) July 25, 2020​


Who does ‘voluntourism’ actually help? Trips run by WE and other charities draw skepticism



> _There were a lot of issues to consider when bringing over wealthy North Americans to poor countries for a feel-good trip_
> 
> OTTAWA – Part of WE Charity’s overseas trips allow people from North America to “step into the shoes of Maasai warriors” in Kenya, or “experience a shamanic ceremony and get hands–on weapons training” in Ecuador.
> 
> The trips, offered through WE’s for profit arm ME to WE, cost over US$4,000.


Really ****ty If True: Kielburger Inc. “Operates” in Communist China Because Donors Have Factories There!



> *What Does WE Charity Actually Do?*
> 
> Beset by scandal and scrutiny, WE Charity announced earlier this month that it will cancel WE Days, pull its physical presence from schools, clarify the blurry line between itself and the ME to WE business, and “return to its roots” by prioritizing its international development work.
> 
> But what is that work?
> 
> _Oh Fabulous…._
> 
> *Rural China*
> 
> *Former WE employees say:*
> 
> “We stopped doing youth trips to China before the pandemic. The idea was to also stop [development] operations, but some of our donor companies have manufacturing operations in China so they want to fund projects that give back there. We keep a small presence there for when that happens — maybe three people. China was not a priority.” (WE disputes this.)


Trudeau’s mommy, the internationally known expert on development in African nations, went on a #WEscandal junket to Kenya in 2019



> NB – Google Translate: “Justin Trudeau’s mother also traveled with WE Charity to Kenya. This is what Le Journal learned at the end of another week of revelations in connection with a scandal which now threatens to bring down the minority federal government.
> 
> “Today’s celebration filled my heart with hope and joy,” said Margaret Trudeau on July 17, 2019 with WE movement co-founder Craig Kielburger.
> 
> The mother of the Canadian Prime Minister was an “honorary” guest at the inauguration of a WE college where young girls are trained to receive a diploma in tourism.”
> 
> _Now what could Mommy Dearest possibly bring to the table that required her presence in Kenya? Tips on nightclubbing? How to be a groupie?
> 
> And yes that is the demented Kim Campbell._


Trudeau believes he's special



> During his blackface scandal last year, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said the “layers of privilege” he grew up with blinded him to the fact that donning blackface was racist.
> 
> We’d argue Trudeau’s latest conflict-of-interest scandal in the WE Charity controversy — the third one he’s being investigated for by the ethics commissioner — stems from the same problem.
> 
> That is, that Trudeau, who grew up as the son of a former prime minister, is an elitist who believes he is privileged, and thus entitled to ignore the standards of ethical-political conduct that apply to lesser mortals.


Oh, he's special, all right...

Trudeau and Morneau should resign or risk snap election: opposition



> Opposition parties are ratcheting up their calls for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Finance Minister Bill Morneau to resign, with the Conservatives and Bloc Quebecois saying that the Liberals could be facing a fall election, if actions beyond their apologies over their roles in the WE Charity controversy aren’t taken.
> 
> In a new statement in French Friday afternoon, Bloc Quebecois Leader Yves-Francois Blanchet said that in light of the ongoing developments in the WE Charity controversy, and what he called a betrayal of Canadians’ trust that Trudeau and Morneau have demonstrated, it’s time for them both to go.
> 
> *What they’re really saying is “Let’s Make A Deal”*


Bold mine.

Yeppers.

And, _and_, Porno Willie & SockBoy could pull the heads off kittens and eat their warm, bloody carcasses in a 1 hour special on Mother Corpse & the Progs would _still_ vote for them...


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Celebrating a hunnert years of federal politician lies...

Canada history, July 25: 100 years of “temporary” tax



> July 25, 1917. The First World War was at its height, having dragged on for three years grinding up lives, resources, and money.
> 
> On July 25, the federal government announced a “War Income Tax” to help replenish the drained federal coffers.
> 
> It was somewhat of a political gesture as well in that only days before the government announced conscription, which would send more young men to war.
> 
> Conscription (obligatory military service) was a highly controversial move, and the fact that wealthier Canadians would have to do more to contribute to the war was not totally unwelcome, although there certainly was opposition.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Blows the hell outta a $16 glass of OJ, doncha think?

Trudeau's United Nations hospitality bills revealed



> They say the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. It’s always worked for me and I think Justin Trudeau thought it would work for him too.
> 
> *An order paper return reveals that Trudeau blew through nearly $330,000 trying to wine and dine the world’s dictators and oligarchs into supporting his failed United Nations Security Council bid.*
> 
> The Security Council bid was equal parts vanity and spite. Trudeau wanted it for his legacy and he wanted it because former Conservative PM Harper didn’t win a Security Council seat either — although, at least Harper made it to the second round of voting!


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

Frankly, there ain't been much of a choice over the last 50 years...

Pierre Trudeau Leads as Canadians Rank Recent Prime Ministers



> About one-in-four Canadians believe Pierre Trudeau has been the best head of government of the past five decades, a new Research Co. poll has found.
> 
> In the online survey of a representative national sample, 23% of Canadians select Pierre Trudeau as the best prime minister since 1968—a proportion that climbs to 27% among Atlantic Canadians, and 26% among both Ontarians and Quebecers.
> 
> Stephen Harper is next on the list with 16%, followed by Justin Trudeau with 15%, Jean Chrétien with 11% and Brian Mulroney with 8%.
> 
> Justin Trudeau has his best numbers with Canadians aged 18-to-34 (26%), but drops to 14% among those aged 35-to-54 and 5% among those aged 55 and over.


This, however, surprises me:



> When asked who the worst prime minister since 1968 has been, 23% of Canadians pick Harper, followed by Justin Trudeau with 18% and Pierre Trudeau with 7%.


Harper? Seriously?

Apparently none of these young pups got a history lesson that noted anything about Pere...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Oh, I'm sure he's all over it...

Justin Trudeau looking at ‘all options’ after allegations of a ‘toxic’ workplace at Rideau Hall



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is considering “all options” to evaluate claims of harassment at Rideau Hall after unprecedented allegations that Governor General Julie Payette has created a “toxic” workplace there.


More:



> Citing a dozen unnamed sources, the CBC reported that Payette — a former astronaut recommended by Trudeau to Queen Elizabeth for the position in 2017 — “yelled at, belittled and publicly humiliated” people who work for her.
> 
> It is the latest in a number of controversies that have raised questions about Payette’s selection as Governor General, a largely ceremonial position whose office-holders are nonetheless called upon occasionally to advise the prime minister on constitutional questions and to act as a democratic safeguard in times of crisis.


Privy Council Office launches workplace probe of Governor General’s office amid harassment claims



> The Privy Council Office (PCO) has launched what it calls a “thorough, independent and impartial” workplace probe into claims of harassment and verbal abuse in the office of Gov. Gen. Julie Payette.


More:



> A dozen sources with direct knowledge of the office during Payette’s mandate told CBC News the Governor General has yelled at, belittled and publicly humiliated employees. They accuse her of throwing tantrums in the office and, on one occasion, tossing an employee’s work aside and calling it “****.”


It may well have been. However, there are other terms which could be used. For instance, "_merde_"...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Governor General’s office was ‘toxic,’ ‘unbearable,’ former employee says



> A former employee is speaking out against what they described as a “toxic” work environment at the office of Gov. Gen. Julie Payette.
> 
> “Right from the beginning, I was appalled at what was going on,” the source said.
> 
> “At first, I was just like, ‘OK, I have to give myself time to figure this out,’ or ‘Maybe things are really busy right now and they’re tense, I don’t know,’” the source said.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Frankly, there ain't been much of a choice over the last 50 years...
> 
> Pierre Trudeau Leads as Canadians Rank Recent Prime Ministers
> 
> 
> 
> This, however, surprises me:
> 
> 
> 
> Harper? Seriously?
> 
> Apparently none of these young pups got a history lesson that noted anything about Pere...


Short memories give way to no memories, apparently.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Liberals to hike pay for 10,000 bureaucrats even as federal deficit continues to swell



> The Liberal government on Wednesday announced pay hikes for 10,000 civil servants, even as private-sector job losses across the country remain in the millions and the federal deficit continues to swell.
> 
> The Treasury Board has signed a tentative agreement with the Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC) to boost the wages of unionized workers by 6.64 per cent over three years, including new provisions for caregiver leave, parental leave, and a 10-day domestic violence leave. It follows an earlier agreement, announced July 10, that hiked wages for 84,000 “administrative services” bureaucrats, who also saw a 6.64 per cent increase over three years. The tentative contract would terminate July 2021, with two of the three years being adjusted retroactively.


More:



> *“The idea that government employees should be getting a pay raise right now is incredibly tone deaf,” said Aaron Wudrick, director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.*
> 
> “There are millions of Canadians who have lost their business, lost their job, taken a pay cut, and now they see people in government not only making no sacrifice at all, but actually getting a pay raise, which ultimately is going to come out of the pockets of people working in the private sector,” he said.


Bold mine.

That, on top of this:

Paid leave for public service during pandemic cost $623M, well above estimates: budget watchdog



> The federal government spent well over $600 million on paid leave for public servants in the first few months of the pandemic, and is set to spend more as bureaucrats remain home from work, according to the federal budget watchdog.
> 
> In a report on Friday, the Parliamentary Budget Officer (PBO) estimates that Ottawa spent $623 million on paid leave for public servants between March 15 and May 31, when governments first shifted the economy into lockdown mode. Ottawa likely spent another $80 million to $140 million in June, according to the PBO.


----------



## FeXL

Chief Big Screen NDP



> Featured comment from Chris;
> 
> The Federal Liberals and the BC NDP government are still ignoring the elected Wet’suwet’en leaders and siding with the radical hereditory “chiefs” in their quest to derail gas pipelines.
> 
> They are NOT, however, ignoring their own friends, in the process…
> 
> 
> _“(Former NDP MP Nathan) Cullen is being paid $250 an hour by the province up to a maximum of $2,000 per day, (BC NDP Minister of Indigenous Relations Scott) Fraser told the house, adding: “His rates are at a reasonable average.”
> 
> To date, Cullen has been paid $87,805 in fees and $2,593 in expenses, the ministry told Rob Shaw of The Vancouver Sun.
> 
> The New Democrats also recruited another federal New Democrat, former MP Murray Rankin, to lend a helping hand with the Wet’suwet’en. Since he resigned his federal seat in June of last year, he has been paid $122,278.87 in fees and $6,696.73 in expenses._
> 
> So to recap: a $220,000 payout to two former federal New Democrats and the elected chiefs still remain opposed to the process.”​


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Seeing as the Progs on these boards don't want to discuss any Lefty abuses of power, I'd like to talk WE s'more!

WE Charity co-founder said PMO 'called' to award $900M student-grant program, contradicting Trudeau



> A co-founder of WE Charity claimed in a June 12 conference call that the Prime Minister’s Office contacted the organization directly in April to help implement a federal student volunteer grant program worth over $900 million. WE Charity is set to collect at least $19.5 million in fees to administer the program, but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has faced questions over his and his family’s close links to WE Charity and how the contract was awarded


WE contract puts Trudeau in another charity controversy



> ou would think after his Aga Khan fiasco, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau would understand the need to avoid both conflicts of interests and the appearance of conflicts of interest when his government gives millions of taxpayers’ dollars to charities.
> 
> His failure to do so resulted in him becoming Canada’s first prime minister found by the federal ethics commissioner to have violated four sections of the Conflict of Interest Act since the legislation was passed in 2006.


Trudeau drives straight into another pothole with the WE controversy



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau can’t seem to help himself. Given an open road with clear sailing ahead, he roars off in search of the nearest pothole. You can almost hear the kids in the back seat: “Dad! Watch out for the pothole!” But nope … bang! There goes another axle.
> 
> He’s done it again and again. Canadians handed him a nice majority on a wave of personal popularity that seemed to augur a smooth route to a couple of easy Liberal mandates. Instead he’s been disappearing into potholes like a squirrel stashing nuts for the winter. The freebie trip to Aga Khan’s island. The costume drama in India. The determined effort to rescue SNC-Lavalin at the cost of his own credibility. The fumbling away of Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott. The groping allegations. The blackface embarrassment. The weird admiration for China’s autocracy. The extra plane for his canoe while campaigning against climate change.


But, his dreamy harrrrrrr... :love2::love2::love2:

We Charity scrutiny trips up Trudeau



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau hasn’t had any problem using the vast resources of the federal government to hand out almost $169 billion to Canadians in COVID-19 relief.
> 
> Given that, it’s hard to understand why his government was incapable of administering, on its own, a $912-million grant to post-secondary students to do volunteer work.
> 
> And it’s hard to understand why the only organization that could do it, among all of Canada’s charitable and non-profit organizations, was the one he and his family happened to have a close, personal, decade-long relationship with — the We Charity, founded and headed by brothers Craig and Marc Kielburger.


Rex Murphy: From whee to woe: Why did Trudeau ever think WE deal would fly?



> Well, that was quick.
> 
> I refer of course to the cancellation of the arrangement with the Kielburger boys, Marc and Craig, to distribute 912 million Canadian taxpayer dollars.
> 
> _I swear the more I watch this the more painful it looks. I almost feel sorry for the twit. Almost.
> 
> See the kiss at the end. 😂 she couldn’t turn away fast enough! pic.twitter.com/SnRCvgjJRa
> 
> — Amy (@IAmyagain) July 1, 2020​_


Canadians deserve answers on Prime Minister Trudeau’s ties to WE Charity



> With the amounts of money being tossed around in Ottawa these days, $900 million doesn’t quite seem as significant a figure as it might once have.
> 
> While it may pale in comparison to the price tags of some other recent government initiatives, it’s still the sort of expenditure that ought to require scrutiny and oversight.
> 
> So when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced just over a week ago that WE Charity had been selected by his government to administer the $900-million Canada Student Service Grant (CSSG) program, *there were some immediate and obvious red flags.*


Bold mine.

Ya think?!

Trudeau admits he did not recuse himself from decision to outsource $900 million volunteer grant program to WE Charity



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau admits that he did not recuse himself from the federal cabinet vote to outsource a $900-million student volunteer program to WE Charity, which has close ties to him and his family.
> 
> “The recommendation to use WE to get opportunities out for young people was made by the public service. But as a cabinet, we ratify those decisions,” Trudeau acknowledged for the first time at a news conference on Wednesday.


Liar...

(I may have slightly edited the next headline...)

Trudeau remains clueless



> ustin Trudeau, once again, simply doesn’t get it.
> 
> The PM has no clue why there was an issue awarding a $912-million, sole-sourced contract to an organization that he has been closely linked to over the years.


Hell, it's all his money! Why would he need scrutiny & permission?

Tories call for answers on WE contract after reports Trudeau’s family was paid speaking fees



> The Conservative Party is calling for Parliament to be “immediately” recalled and for all documents related to a now-cancelled federal contact with WE Charity be made public, following news that two of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s relatives have collectively received hundreds of thousands of dollars in speaking fees from the WE organization.
> 
> “Every single cabinet minister needs to come clean about whether or not they knew that the Prime Minister’s family had a financial relationship with WE Charity when they approved this massive contract,” Michael Barrett, the Conservatives’ ethics critic, wrote in a statement on Thursday.
> 
> *Rex Murphy: Who cancelled the WE contract — and why?*
> 
> I don’t normally do trilogies, but this WE Charity affair is fascinating.
> 
> The government’s facile description of the WE deal’s unexplained collapse noted that it was a “mutually agreed upon decision.” But that’s hardly reassuring, as the choice to enter into the deal a few weeks earlier was also a mutually agreed upon decision. How could it be otherwise? Mutual agreement is the definition of a deal.
> 
> *Justin was only thinking of the children!*
> 
> _Here’s how the Prime Minister’s Office is explaining the payments made to PM Trudeau’s mom and brother for events hosted by WE Charity. Trudeau and his cabinet awarded WE Charity the now-cancelled contract to administer the $900-million student work program. pic.twitter.com/D9wMt7wddW
> 
> — Marieke Walsh (@MariekeWalsh) July 9, 2020​_


:---( Almost brings a tear to your eye, donnit...

Trudeaus were paid big to appear at WE Day events



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s mother and brother were paid more than $350,000 to appear at WE Day events run by the same charity that his government attempted to give a sole-sourced $912 million contract to just weeks ago.
> 
> Remarkably, Trudeau continues to see no conflict of interest in this contract or in his involvement in awarding it.
> 
> As the old saying goes, don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. The relationship between the Trudeaus and this organization is more than cozy.


Blindsided by the WE scandal, Liberal MPs wonder: How did Justin Trudeau get us into this mess?



> “We” is once again a touchy subject in Justin Trudeau’s Liberal party.
> 
> While the hits just keep on coming about Trudeau’s connections to the WE charity, the controversy has touched off grumbling in Liberal circles about the lowercase “we” — as in, how exactly did we get into this mess, and who is “we” anyway in the decision-making circle around the prime minister?
> 
> Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, the Liberal MP for the Toronto riding of Beaches-East York, says he was on the phone immediately after the news emerged about WE being chosen to hand out nearly $1 billion in pandemic relief to students. He placed a call last week to the office of Diversity, Inclusion and Youth Minister Bardish Chagger — who’s now gone silent with the media — to get an explanation.
> 
> “I was struggling to understand why it was being done this way,” said Erskine-Smith, a rare MP willing to go on the record on Friday about his concerns with the entire WE affair.


More family ties and call for cops to probe Trudeau-WE fiasco



> Oh, and just like Trudeau, it seems Morneau didn’t think he should have recused himself from approving a nearly $1 billion sole sourced government contract for WE to run a student grant program.
> 
> Unlike the Trudeau family members – the PM’s mother, brother and wife – Morneau has a family member currently on the payroll and another who has been supported by WE in the past. His daughter Clare spoke at a WE Day in Ottawa but was reportedly not paid.


Critics denounce WE Charity campaign-style ad for Justin Trudeau amid PM's scandal over charity links



> A 2017 ad from WE Charity that appears to promote Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberal government is being highlighted by critics this week as Trudeau faces an ethics investigation over handing a $900-million sole-source contract to the group, which has paid members of his family hundreds of thousands of dollars in speaking fees.
> 
> The ad, entitled “WE are Canada,” and devoted exclusively to Trudeau, appears to be linked to the Canada 150 celebrations and shows stylized silhouettes of Trudeau across backdrops of mountains and farmer’s fields, *while Trudeau speaks about young people and his intentions to work hard.*


Bold mine.

Well, he's definitely working hard at spending taxpayer $$$!

WE Charity lays off hundreds after deal with Trudeau government is cancelled



> OTTAWA—WE Charity hired 465 people to help administer the federal government’s student volunteer grant program. And then a political scandal hit.
> 
> The charity organization laid off 450 contract workers across the country last week and told them not to speak about their work with WE. The charity told the Star that the 15 other new hires were given full-time positions within the organization.
> 
> The workers were hired as contractors — some fixed-term, others “independent” — to deliver the Canada Student Service Grant, the Liberal government’s $900-million program to pay students for volunteering during the COVID-19 pandemic. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau initially said WE was selected to run the program because it was the “best and only” organization capable of doing it.
> 
> _*Good. Now they can find real jobs and rest easy knowing they weren’t complicit in a the Trudeau/Kielburger scam.*_


Bold mine.

Yeppers.

“I have not come across many people who’ve had great things to say about their experience with WE…” says Trudeau Youth Council Member #WEscam



> Could WE take down the government?
> 
> “The student service grant would have been a really good opportunity for [students] to give back to the community, but to also earn some money for school,” said Alfred Burgesson, a 23-year-old member of the Prime Minister’s Youth Council who also works in youth employment.
> 
> Burgesson was asked to serve on an advisory board for the student grant project. He told The House that while he had positive experiences with the organization, he turned down the offer.
> 
> “I have not come across many people who’ve had great things to say about their experience with WE, so as a youth service provider, I decided not to get too close to that initiative,” he said.
> 
> _Pretty sad when a mere youth knows to steer clear of the stench of WE.
> 
> That stench however attracts Justin and his cronies like flies to ****.
> 
> But take down the government? Not a chance.
> 
> The political class sees this sort of scam as a deserved entitlement.
> 
> *One more reason for term limits.*_


Bold mine.

I've always been somewhat agnostic about term limits. However, when it comes to both Trudopes, it's difficult to disagree.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

(continued from above)

Conservatives say they want Trudeau, Morneau to testify on WE Charity controversy



> The Conservatives have called on both the prime minister and finance minister to testify before a parliamentary committee on the WE Charity decision.
> 
> The Sunday announcement, made by MP Pierre Poilievre, follows the party’s calls earlier this week for a criminal investigation into the awarding of a contract with WE Charity, an organization that has paid Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s family hundreds of thousands of dollars in speaking fees.


Why bother? It'll merely give the bastards a national stage & they're just going to lie through their teeth anyway...

Trudeau says he’s sorry for #Wescam



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he’s very sorry he didn’t recuse himself from the government’s decision to award a contract to WE Charity to manage a major student-volunteering program.
> 
> He says his and his family’s longtime involvement with the WE organization should have kept him out of the discussions.
> 
> _*Sorry he got caught… again.*_


Bold mine.

Yeppers.

Justin Trudeau says he's sorry for the WE scandal. Why won't he explain how it happened?



> Justin Trudeau made a bold bid to break up with the ethics controversy consuming his government on Monday with a new twist on an old classic: “It’s not WE. It’s me.”
> 
> There was nothing vague about the prime minister’s apology for how he and WE Charity have become tangled in an ethics storm over pandemic relief. In fact, Trudeau approached near-mathematical precision on Monday with his very personal regrets for what he had failed to do in the whole mess.
> 
> *“The mistake we made was on me and I take responsibility for it,” he said.*


Bold mine.

Good! Then, as this is the 3rd or 16th breach since you got elected, you should resign in shame. I'd recommend ritual seppuku with a dull butter knife but you are no man of honour...

Bloc, NDP join Conservative call for Trudeau to testify on WE Charity contract



> More opposition parties are calling on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to testify at the House of Commons finance committee over the cancelled WE Charity contract to administer a new program that would pay students for volunteer work.
> 
> On Tuesday, the Bloc Québécois and NDP joined the Conservatives in calling for the Prime Minister to appear at the committee, with the Bloc also repeating its call for Mr. Trudeau to step aside while the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner investigates whether he broke federal law.


As noted earlier, sure! In exchange for favours, we promise not to disapprove.

Trudeau government arranged $1.18 million for WE Day event featuring Margaret Trudeau



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked WE Charity to host a 2017 Canada Day weekend event on Parliament Hill, the organization’s co-founder said, for which the government paid $1.18 million. And Trudeau’s mother, who had been receiving fees for making public appearances at WE events at the time, was a speaker at the event.


WE Charity used taxpayer money to hire Trudeau fangirl Lilly Singh for California event



> *The Canadian government paid WE Charity to hire Liberal-friendly celebrities to appear at a WE Day event... in California.*
> 
> The scandal surrounding the Liberal government's seemingly constant funneling of money to the WE Organization is like an onion. Peel back a layer and there is always something underneath!


WE organization under scrutiny for not registering as lobbyist before pitching proposals to Trudeau Liberals



> The WE organization is coming under new scrutiny over questions as to whether it should have officially registered to lobby the federal government before it pitched two separate programs to the Trudeau government last April.
> 
> WE is not listed in the federal lobbying registry. On Friday, Conservative MPs Pierre Poilievre and Michael Barrett wrote the federal commissioner of lobbying, Nancy Bélanger, asking her to investigate if WE had possibly broken the Lobbying Act.


Trudeau and the Liberals still don't get why they were wronghttps://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-and-the-liberals-still-dont-get-why-they-were-wrong



> Liberals warned against spending too much time looking into the WE fiasco by claiming that it wasn’t the role of Parliamentary committees to examine the Trudeau Liberals giving a near $1-billion sole-sourced contract to a charity closely tied to the government. I mean, why have MPs look into the government giving a sweet deal to their friends.
> 
> *The Commons Ethics Committee was the same one that didn’t think they needed to hear from the Ethics Commissioner, Mario Dion, on the SNC Lavalin affair.* At least that was the view of the Liberal and Bloc majority earlier this year.


Bold mine.

Precisely.

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Paying volunteer students less than minimum wage was Trudeau government’s idea, says WE Charity



> As the Commons finance committee prepares for more testimony on the controversial Canada Student Service Grant, WE Charity says one of the more contentious aspects of the program’s design — paying students less than minimum wage for their hours of work — was the federal government’s idea.
> 
> With only about six weeks left before their return to full-time studies, some students now say they want the federal government to scrap the stalled $900 million volunteer compensation scheme and redirect the funding toward financial assistance for post-secondary students and recent graduates.


RAYCISS!!!

Trudeau wants us to deny reality on WE fiasco



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau wants us to continue to believe the impossible: That it was the non-partisan public service, and not anyone political, who suggested that WE Charity be given a $912-million, sole-sourced contract.
> 
> “It was the independent public service that made the recommendation of the WE Charity to deliver opportunities to students,” Trudeau stated in the House of Commons on Tuesday.


<cough>Horse$h!t<cough>

Trudeau gov. contract for $912M student program was with WE Charity’s real estate holding foundation



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government awarded the contract to run the $912-million student volunteer program to a foundation that only received charity status last year and whose stated purpose was to “hold real estate,” newly released records show.
> 
> Both a government and charity official confirmed the controversial Canada Student Service Grant contract was not with WE Charity, as Trudeau announced.
> 
> Rather, the government gave the contract to the WE Charity Foundation, which is a distinct charity with no track record.
> 
> _WTF? This scam should see Trudeau turfed. It was clearly an effort to bail out a Liberal Party propaganda outfit with tax payer money. I hope the CRA has the balls to go after the Kielburgers._


WE Charity pitch to Morneau’s office prior to Trudeau announcement included student service



> WE Charity sent the Finance Minister’s office a proposal for a program that included engaging youth in service the day before Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced the government’s new student service grant and two months before WE was awarded the contract to administer the program.


Shocka...

CORRUPTION: Trudeau Caught In Massive Lie, Huge Government Contract Went To WE’s Real Estate Holding Company, Not WE Charity



> If the Liberals thought the WE Charity Scandal had gotten as bad as it could get, they were dead wrong.
> 
> It has gotten much worse.
> 
> Justin Trudeau – and the entire Liberal government – have been caught in a massive lie.
> 
> In official documents and statements put out to the public, Trudeau and the government said they were giving the nearly $1 billion contract to the WE Charity.
> 
> Turns out, that was false.
> 
> Instead, the government gave the contract to the WE Organization’s newly-formed real estate holding company, the WE Charity Foundation.
> 
> As noted by Global News, the WE Charity Foundation “is a distinct charity with no track record.”
> 
> In effect, it appears the WE Charity Foundation hasn’t actually done any charitable work, and instead only holds real estate.


WE fiasco shows Trudeau government adrift



> Does anyone in the Trudeau government really have a clue about this deal with WE?
> 
> They told us for weeks that it was all the idea of the public service, and then found out that WE actually pitched ministers Chagger, Ng and Morneau.
> 
> They claimed WE would be paid $19.5 million for administering the $912 million contract, turns out that it was $43.5 million up for grabs. Finally it turns out they didn’t even sign the contract with WE Charity but another group.


Justin Trudeau’s Billion-Dollar #WeScandal Is a Story of Power, Branding, and Charity



> _In Justin Trudeau, WE Charity had a prominent booster. In WE, Justin Trudeau had a powerful platform popular with young people._
> 
> It’s Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s summer scandal. He and his finance minister are under investigation from an ethics watchdog. Two Parliamentary committees have started investigating the affair and Trudeau will testify.
> 
> In the middle of it all is a $912 million contract, awarded without competition to the Canadian-founded WE Charity, a household name thanks to a powerful origin story that has morphed into a huge youth-oriented movement with celebrities like Meghan Markle and Prince Harry attached.


Trudeau's WE scandal is shocking, not surprising



> The latest example of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau believing he’s not bound by the rules of ethical conduct, which he frequently lectures Canadians about whenever he screws up, comes as no surprise.
> 
> Now entangled in his third conflict-of-interest controversy — his Aga Khan free vacations fiasco and the SNC-Lavalin affair known as Lavscam having preceded it — his WE Charity mess is another example of Trudeau not understanding, or not caring, about the proper use of his authority as prime minister.


Is the WE Charity affair Justin Trudeau’s sponsorship scandal?



> With each new revelation in the rapidly snowballing scandal surrounding Ottawa’s aborted plan to contract out a multimillion-dollar student volunteer program to WE Charity, it gets harder to know whether to be more outraged, disgusted or flabbergasted – or some measure of all three.
> 
> Outraged that, in the middle of a pandemic that has left millions of Canadians out of work and Ottawa digging a deficit hole for the ages, our federal government somehow thought it urgent and appropriate to spend nearly $1-billion on a program that appeared to serve no one’s interest more than its own and those of the organization chosen to run it.
> 
> Disgusted that, as average Canadians struggle to set aside a few dollars every month to donate to their local church or food bank, the federal government would reward a charity that defiles the notion of do-gooding by offering “complimentary” trips across the globe to their rich donor friends in high places, absorbing funds that might otherwise have gone to actually doing good rather than just generating good PR.


Oh, look who just woke up! If it isn't Andy Scheep, nearly a month after the scandal broke...

Scheer says PM Trudeau should resign over WE affair



> OTTAWA — Without the House sitting in a manner that would allow for a confidence vote, and with the Official Opposition lacking a permanent leader, outgoing leader Andrew Scheer is imploring Liberal MPs to take action and oust Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as leader of their party over the WE Charity controversy.
> 
> Scheer said that Liberal MPs have a choice to make.
> 
> _Trudeau should resign. This was out and out fraud. Trudeau tried to bail out his financially failing propagandists. He got caught.
> 
> *Sadly he won’t.*_


Agreed.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

(continued from above)

Trudeau Liberals playing a bad game of defence on WE



> One of the defences against the WE scandal and claims that the Trudeau government was too cozy with an organization that they gave a $912-million sole-sourced contract to is that Conservatives were tight with them as well.
> 
> Trudeau has raised the funding WE received from the Harper government in the House of Commons. *Supporters of the prime minister tweet out photos or old tweets from people like Laureen Harper or leadership contenders Peter MacKay and Erin O’Toole.*
> 
> Yet these claims don’t stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.
> 
> Unlike Sophie Trudeau, the current PM’s wife, Laureen Harper was never invited to speak at one of the massive WE Day rallies. She tweeted out support and met with celebrity speaker Martin Sheen at a reception. She once attended an Ottawa-area WE Day as a guest but not a speaker.
> 
> That is a far cry from being asked to co-host an event in Montreal, speak at several others, host a podcast and be an ambassador for WE.


Where's The Bigot with his cries of "whataboutism"?

Trudeau strains to contain political scandal engulfing his family



> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, in the midst of the Covid-19 pandemic, is embroiled in another controversy of his own making that’s inflicting political damage on him and his administration.
> 
> The Canadian leader is struggling to contain the rapid spread of a firestorm sparked by his plan to award a sole-source contract to a powerful charity and fueled by revelations that members of his family have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in speaking fees by the organization over the past half decade. *The dustup also threatens to cost Trudeau his trusted finance minister.*


Bold mine.

Now _that_ would purely be a tragedy...

WE charity scandal - A simple guide to the new crisis for Trudeau

A blow by blow.

Trudeau’s approval rating drops amid WE scandal, faith in Liberals remains: poll



> Despite strong approval for his handling of the coronavirus outbreak, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s image has taken a hit amid the WE Charity scandal, according to an Angus Reid survey.
> 
> Trudeau’s approval rating in May sat at 55 per cent, but that number fell to 44 per cent as of July 23, the survey showed. *Half of the respondents said their opinion of Trudeau has worsened in the past month.*


Bold mine.

And the other half said it couldn't get any lower...

WE Charity started work on federal student grant program weeks before cabinet approval



> WE Charity began working on Ottawa’s student volunteer grant program weeks before the federal cabinet approved the deal, newly released documents reveal.
> 
> A copy of the contribution agreement between the government and the charity showed that WE officially began working on the Canada Student Service Grant (CSSG) on May 5.
> 
> Federal cabinet met to discuss the program — and ultimately approve WE Charity — on May 22.


The WE Show



> Programing note: Those SDAers retired or otherwise not working, make sure you tune in to the House of Commons Finance committee hearings tomorrow, Tuesday. Michelle Douglas, former WE chair of directors, who quit last March, is scheduled to testify, along with the Kielburger cronies.
> 
> At CPAC.
> 
> There’s more to come out about Kenya: _Who does ‘voluntourism’ actually help? Trips run by WE and other charities draw skepticism_


WE's moment of glory turns potentially fatal



> One of the truly oddest items in this ever exfoliating WE story, one that came from far out in left field, was the news that Craig Kielburger, the lead progressive gospeller and co-founder of the embattled corporation, was named to the Leaders’ Debate Commission for the past election.
> 
> Where did that outré notion come from, and what precisely was Craig Kielburger going to bring to the deliberations of that sometimes controversial group? Over the past few weeks all have learned that WE has many fingers in many pies, but it is truly hard to see how a real estate and “voluntourism” entity has any expertise to lend to setting up political debates.


And, finally, this:

The Libranos: WE HAVE A WINNER



> Librano math: How the hell does a contract originally claimed to be worth $19-million by the Trudeau government get an advanced payment of $33-million?
> 
> *DING*DING*DING*DING*
> 
> We have a winner.
> 
> *How the hell does a contract originally claimed to be worth $19-million by the Trudeau government get an advanced payment of $33-million?*​
> Update: $30 Million was paid to WE within a week of contract signing (May 5!) & now has to be re-paid back..


Bold mine.

Questions, questions, questions...


----------



## FeXL

CBC edited out O'Toole's plan to defund CBC during radio interview



> Conservative leadership candidate Erin O'Toole had an answer edited out by the CBC during an interview with the crown broadcasting corporation—during this answer, O'Toole made the case for defunding the CBC.
> 
> The CBC only chose to edit out the question and answer that related to the CBC's federal funding. No other answers were cut from the interview.
> 
> Fortunately, the O'Toole team recorded the entire interview and posted it on their social media.


Can't plant a seed...


----------



## FUXL

Hou ith the hairy ath sthhepeppertist who appointed this numbskull? Yup that's right none other than *Stevie Harper*. (m'bold).

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-p...ate-compensation-process-totally-unacceptable


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Porno Willie quits!

“He’ll meet you at the bus stop”.



> I’ve been busy. Is Bill Morneau still our Finance Minister?
> 
> Bumped. Morneau is holding a news conference at 7:15pm. Radio-Canada is reporting he plans to resign.
> 
> My sources confirm that Bill Morneau has resigned as Minister of Finance.
> 
> — David Cochrane (@CochraneCBC) August 17, 2020​
> And from his Montreal seat as well. In fact, he’s done such a fin job with Canada, that Morneau has raised his sights to secretary general of the OECD.


One lying POS Prog down, one still hiding under his bed...


----------



## FUXL

Hairy ath stheperatist still obsessed with Canada eh? How's the tar sand biz?

Doesn't matter a bit. Freeland will be the country's first elected female PM.


----------



## Macfury

FUXL, are you OK? These last two posts of yours are lame even by your standards.


----------



## CubaMark

FUXL said:


> Freeland will be the country's first elected female PM.


I'm not looking forward to that scenario. She's been terrible in particular on the Latin American front, seemingly quite happy with the right-wing evangelical coup that is leading Bolivia to ruin; carrying water for the USA through the ludicrous "Lima Group" working to force an overthrow of the Venezuelan government, and generally misfiring on Canada-Cuba policy.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

On the contrary, I think it's fabulous. Go for it. It's taken 6 years for the Prime Sockboy's luster to wear off among the commies, along with Porno Willie's. Even the most ardent of Progs, the Laurentian Elite, are tired of him.

Bring on The Purple Perogy. Please. She won't last a full term before she implodes.

Let this country know just how shallow the Lieberal gene pool actually is (about a finger's with)...



CubaMark said:


> I'm not looking forward to that scenario.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Shocka...

The Libranos: WE “Nudged”



> Jesus, finally. The truth is out:
> 
> -Proof that it was the Trudeau gov't & not the public service who first put forth WE for the job.
> 
> -Proof of early PMO pressure
> 
> -Proof that WE leveraged relationships w Margaret & Sophie Trudeau to get the $#WEscandalhttps://t.co/XhrdnYTYxY pic.twitter.com/EaEfdFBE5M
> 
> — Jesse Brown (@JesseBrown) August 19, 2020​


Comments nail it.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

So, the Purple Perogy is now Finance Minister. I hope she does the same bang-up job she did on the Free Trade agreement as Foreign Minister!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I Want A New Country



> Well, isn’t she just off to a flying start.
> 
> 'The restart of our economy needs to be green': Freeland on de-carbonization of Canadian economy pic.twitter.com/9yYk37pi2c
> 
> — BNN Bloomberg (@BNNBloomberg) August 18, 2020​


And, in addition to her annoyingly slow dictation (guess Progs can't _comprende_ normal speech cadence), she steals Joey Wetfingers' campaign slogan!:



> BUILD BACK BETTER


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Other comments also nail it.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

So, in order to halt the WE investigations, the lying sack of $h!t prorogues parliament.

Trudeau tries to find his way out of chaos



> A resignation, a cabinet shuffle and a prorogation all within 24 hours. Do you need any more evidence of a government in chaos and crisis?
> 
> The surprise booting of Bill Morneau from the finance portfolio in Justin Trudeau’s government was followed by the less than surprising appointment of Chrystia Freeland as his replacement.


More:



> “Stephen Harper has used prorogation to avoid difficult political circumstances. *We will not*,” Trudeau promised in the Liberal 2015 election platform.
> 
> Trudeau spoke out against prorogation in 2010 — even marching in Montreal alongside the Communist Party — and even as recently as 2017 was telling the House of Commons that he would, “not resort to prorogation to avoid problematic situations.”
> 
> Yet here we are: The Trudeau Liberals are resorting to prorogation in order to stop the Parliamentary committees that have been holding hearings, calling witnesses and causing Trudeau problems with the WE scandal. So much for being different than the other guys.


Bold mine.

I've lost count how many broken campaign promises & how many lies this useless POS has uttered. But, by all means, vote for him again!

And where's our esteemed GG on this? Grab the rubber stamp!

The Libranos: Now Watch The Pain All Go Away



> Julie Payette rubber-stamps prorogue request… _it has been a cascade of negative press: she’s refused to move in to the official residence in Ottawa, preferring to live at her cottage in Quebec or another guesthouse in the capital — even as some $250,000 has been spent on renovating Rideau Hall. She’s super-private, doesn’t like being in the public eye._


Nice...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

More lies from the Lieberals!

The Libranos: Just One WE Problem



> Oh.
> 
> BREAKING: Treasury Board officials told Trudeau that WE Charity did not have capacity to handle contracthttps://t.co/7qTKhM0dyL
> 
> — The Post Millennial (@TPostMillennial) August 19, 2020​


Then all they had to do was get more of their bum-buddies to handle the extra capacity needed. Win-win!!!


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

More drama for the Gov.-Gen: Reports of expensive jet flights and hiding from RCMP security



> More stories are emerging of diva-like actions by the Queen’s representative in Canada, Gov.-Gen. Julie Payette.
> 
> Payette is using a government Challenger, which takes a couple hours of pre-takeoff prep time and almost $5,000 an hour, for pick-ups and drop-offs at Mirabel en route to her Laurentian Mountain cottage, reported CTV’s Don Martin.
> 
> To reach the terminal via her chauffeur-driven car would take less than 90 minutes.
> 
> Flight data for 2019 shows Payette made seven pit stops in Mirabel aboard the jet and this has continued in 2020 as she work at her cottage in pandemic isolation, reported Martin.
> 
> Payette even took on a flight on May 6 from Brockville, located a 90-minute drive south of Ottawa, directly to Mirabel before the plane returned to Ottawa.
> 
> CBC reported Monday Payette has been also causing headaches for the RCMP security details by slipping away on foreign trips.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

Anybody who believed that Blackface McGroper and his cadre of Prog liars wasn't into this up to his droopy eyebrow, his pointed elbow & his grabby paw probably voted for the bastard...

Finally, the truth behind the WE scandal. It doesn't look good for the Liberals



> Up until now, the Liberals’ main defence regarding the WE controversy has been that any misdeeds, and they acknowledge there were some, were fundamentally innocent. Careless and embarrassing, sure, but not malicious. Both the prime minister and the now-former finance minister have acknowledged wrongdoing. They both agreed they should have recused themselves from the cabinet vote into the contract and apologized. Chrystia Freeland, the new finance minister, was also moved to apologize, somewhat bizarrely, on behalf of the cabinet.


More:



> The public service did indeed recommend WE. That is true. But WE was recommended after the Trudeau government — not just the public service, but cabinet ministers or their staff — was actively working with WE. The recommendation of the public service, though undenied, did not happen in a vacuum, nor was it generated neutrally. It took place against a backdrop of active lobbying by WE and communication about the matter at high levels of the Trudeau government.
> 
> This turns the Liberal narrative on its head. Trudeau and his senior ministers and aides have thus far used the public service as armour, putting it between themselves and the scandal. They cop only to sloppiness. But we know from these documents — sections of which remain redacted — that while the public service recommended WE to the prime minister on May 13, cabinet minister Bardish Chagger was communicating directly with WE as early as April 17, and that a policy adviser in Morneau’s office was communicating with WE as early as April 20. Indeed, WE’s Craig Kielburger even sent Chagger an email on April 22, thanking her for her “suggestion” of a student support program.


Related:

The Libranos: “Besties”

Seriously? This is what their email correspondence reads like? Like an exchange between vapid 14 year old school girls? No wonder Sockboy garnered votes for his "nice har"...

From the comments:



> Absolutely disgraceful. Is this how the senior management correspond with each other? This is not how intelligent adults speak to each other over the issue of giving away millions of my hard earned taxpayer dollars. This is a disgrace. These people earn six figure salaries and speak like an idiot 14 year old high school girls. No wonder the Ottawa public service fell over themselves fawning at Trudeaus arrival. I have even less respect for our Federal public service than before.


Yeppers...


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

And, while we're talking grubby paws & taxpayer $$$...

Trudeau government allowed liberal journalists to award government cash to themselves



> Media executives divvying up federal grants awarded their own companies 100 percent wage subsidies, according to Blacklock's Reporter.
> 
> ...
> 
> Start up newsrooms are barred from entering the program. The taxpayer funded grants provide media groups up to $60k a year to cover reporter salaries.
> 
> It turns out that members on the panel included executives that were also available to earn funding from the very program they ran.


Nope. No way in hell a $600 million taxpayer-funded gov't bailout will influence our "journalistic" "objectivity" regarding said gov't. Uh, unh...


----------



## CubaMark

The unknown Conservative

A third ballot win by Erin O’Toole following a hilarious several-hour delay with a machine that opens the ballot envelopes....

*Erin O'Toole courted the right of the Conservative Party and won*

Atlantic Canada is now guaranteed to go Liberal. The entrenchment of the hard Right conservative character is complete... those Refoooooooooorm! roots are deep. 

Moderate conservatives will find a happy home with Trudeau’s neoliberals. And the Liberals faux-progressive posturing will gain enough of the uncritical middle-class Left to win the next election, barring a controversy much more serious than the “We” scandal.


----------



## Macfury

This analysis of yours indicates you don't understand conservatives very well.



CubaMark said:


> The unknown Conservative
> 
> A third ballot win by Erin O’Toole following a hilarious several-hour delay with a machine that opens the ballot envelopes....
> 
> *Erin O'Toole courted the right of the Conservative Party and won*
> 
> Atlantic Canada is now guaranteed to go Liberal. The entrenchment of the hard Right conservative character is complete... those Refoooooooooorm! roots are deep.
> 
> Moderate conservatives will find a happy home with Trudeau’s neoliberals. And the Liberals faux-progressive posturing will gain enough of the uncritical middle-class Left to win the next election, barring a controversy much more serious than the “We” scandal.


----------



## eMacMan

Been awhile, but as I recall the backbone of the Reform platform revolved around two very strange political concepts; Fiscal and ethical responsibility. Both of which scared the bejeezus out of the establishment types, be they Liebarrel or Conman.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Been awhile, but as I recall the backbone of the Reform platform revolved around two very strange political concepts; Fiscal and ethical responsibility....


No wonder CM is livid! Like garlic to a vampire!


----------



## FeXL

As if Atlantic Canadians would ever refuse Lieberal buy-off money.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> As if Atlantic Canadians would ever refuse Lieberal buy-off money.


Yep. I can see how upset CM is that they will not vote Conservative.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

The Libranos: Pieces Of Silver



> _Katie Telford’s husband pressed Trudeau government to make changes to wage subsidy law to benefit his employer…_
> More from Justin Ling.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

John Ivison: Trudeau makes sudden course correction on freedom of speech



> Justin Trudeau was asked by a reporter on Tuesday whether he condemns the publication of cartoons caricaturing the Prophet Muhammad.
> 
> “No,” he said, definitively in French. “I think it is important to continue to defend freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Our artists help us to reflect and challenge our views, and they contribute to our society.”​
> _He’s full of ****._


I find no issue with the analysis...

This lying sack of feces flops around like a trout on the river bank, too.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Following in the footsteps of his hero Trump down south, Kennedy’s popularity continues to plummet. 



> Braid: As Kenney's popularity sinks, he gives anti-maskers green light to protest
> 
> It almost defies belief that the premier would exempt anti-mask demonstrators from the new mandatory rule that limits outdoor gatherings to 10 people
> 
> Don Braid • Calgary Herald
> Dec 01, 2020 • Last Updated 4 hours ago • 3 minute read
> 
> Hundreds of anti-mask protestors rally outside city hall in Calgary on Saturday, Nov. 21, 2020. Photo by Darren Makowichuk/Postmedia
> 
> Only 40 per cent of Albertans now approve Premier Jason Kenney’s performance, according to a poll by the Angus Reid Institute.
> 
> This is the premier whose approval rating was 61 per cent in April 2019.
> 
> His decline since then, even before anybody had heard of COVID-19, has been slow but steady with only a tiny upward bump in a single month.
> 
> All other premiers except Manitoba’s hapless Brian Pallister (32 per cent) are in majority territory. The rest are experiencing some slide but still have the backing of most citizens.
> 
> There are many explanations for Kenney’s decline — the battle with doctors, looming spending cuts and the alarming recent surge of the virus.
> 
> But another reason may be Kenney’s odd constitutional musings and his desire to hang on to the UCP’s ideological base.
> 
> It almost defies belief, for instance, that the premier would exempt anti-mask demonstrators from the new mandatory rule that limits outdoor gatherings to 10 people.
> 
> Hundreds gathered in Calgary on Saturday to protest mask use and COVID-19 restrictions. Police were present but there has been no enforcement we know of....



 https://www.google.ca/amp/s/calgar...wcm/eeb5c9f6-f309-46e5-bca0-5406ec853e3a/amp/


----------



## Macfury

Good for Kenney for allowing people to voluntarily associate with others without masks. Didn't think he had it in him!

Still has a big buffer zone before he scrapes rock bottom like Notley at 28% approval:

https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...-slides-to-28-per-cent-in-new-angus-reid-poll

I don't recall you ever mentioning this, Freddie!


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> Following in the footsteps of his hero Trump down south, Kennedy’s popularity continues to plummet.
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/calgary...wcm/eeb5c9f6-f309-46e5-bca0-5406ec853e3a/amp/



If you had the slightest memory of high school science you would know that outside air exchange is so rapid that there is about zero chance of transmitting any virus. Even with no anti-social distancing and no mask hysteria. Yep the great Democrypt Biden has declared that the BLM thugs are completely immune and should be free to continue Burning, Looting and Murdering without any interference whatsoever. So why not extend the same courtesy to that handful of individuals who are trying to hang onto the rights you so willingly tossed in the garbage? You do realize that until you stop capitulating, the tyrants will simply keep coming back and demanding more, more, more?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> You do realize that until you stop capitulating, the tyrants will simply keep coming back and demanding more, more, more?


Realizes and bends over to give them better access.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> If you had the slightest memory of high school science you would know that outside air exchange is so rapid that there is about zero chance of transmitting any virus. Even with no anti-social distancing and no mask hysteria. Yep the great Democrypt Biden has declared that the BLM thugs are completely immune and should be free to continue Burning, Looting and Murdering without any interference whatsoever. So why not extend the same courtesy to that handful of individuals who are trying to hang onto the rights you so willingly tossed in the garbage? You do realize that until you stop capitulating, the tyrants will simply keep coming back and demanding more, more, more?



What does this have to do with the article about Kenney’s plummeting popularity? Honestly, I think you’re starting to lose it.


----------



## Macfury

Who the hell is Kennedy?



Freddie_Biff said:


> What does this have to do with the article about Kennedy’s ...


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Who the hell is Kennedy?



Typo, Mr. “I Never Make a Mistake.” Now try commenting on the actual topic instead of being a nitpicker.


----------



## Macfury

You typoed it twice!



Freddie_Biff said:


> Typo, Mr. “I Never Make a Mistake.” Now try commenting on the actual topic instead of being a nitpicker.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> What does this have to do with the article about Kenney’s plummeting popularity? Honestly, I think you’re starting to lose it.


Was responding to this part of your quote, with which you are clearly in complete and total agreement.



> But another reason may be Kenney’s odd constitutional musings and his desire to hang on to the UCP’s ideological base.
> 
> *It almost defies belief, for instance, that the premier would exempt anti-mask demonstrators from the new mandatory rule that limits outdoor gatherings to 10 people.*


 BTW what defies belief is limiting outdoors gatherings at all. Again air exchange in an outdoor environment is hundreds and even thousands of times faster than inside. Limiting size, anti-social distancing and masks are completely pointless outside. Makes it awfully clear that none of these bums are in the least concerned with our health. If it was any clearer even Freddie and CM could see it.


----------



## eMacMan

Another Rex Murphy article that's sure to have the Politically Correct types howling in fury.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/re...pFSp_Hnw8sJYV3m8nJgg6Nc1GDP4V78qmdEAv5ZNAiAh0



> Dorsey and his plutocratic allies may have the “right” to strip-mine all opposing views from their so-called platforms, but they should not simultaneously be allowed to preach that they are open, and empowering, and speaking truth to power — or, most importantly, to deny that they are agents and activists in the great political struggle of our times.


----------



## CubaMark

_Nice to wake up to more good news....

This deplorable Harper appointee is finally getting the message - her prejudice is no longer welcome. A shame our tax dollars will continue to provide for her well-being..._

*Lynn Beyak, the senator who defended residential schools, is resigning
*










Lynn Beyak, the controversial senator from northwestern Ontario with a long history of making inflammatory remarks about Indigenous peoples, is resigning from the Red Chamber.

Beyak, who was named to the Senate by then-prime minister Stephen Harper in 2013, is leaving just as other members of the upper house were preparing to consider a motion from Independent Sen. Mary Jane McCallum to permanently remove her from the upper house.

Beyak, 71, is leaving three years before her mandatory retirement date.

While Beyak has been suspended from the Senate twice — for questionable comments about the Indigenous residential school system and for posting racist letters on her taxpayer-funded website — an expulsion might have had financial consequences for her, since it would have allowed Parliament to curtail her lifetime pension.

(CBC)​


----------



## eMacMan

Sorry CM while I disagree with some things Beyak has said, it is crucial to maintain her right to say them. The Senate can of course make it very clear that they unanimously disagree with her, but that is as far as it should ever go.

The entire point of free speech is in that first word. Being free to say what you believe. What you believe may not be true, or it may be true but in complete disagreement with the current popular narrative. Either way it should never be curtailed. Even if we are talking about Senators who are generally appointed to represent special interests, at the expense of most Canadians.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> Sorry CM while I disagree with some things Beyak has said, it is crucial to maintain her right to say them. The Senate can of course make it very clear that they unanimously disagree with her, but that is as far as it should ever go.


Take it up with her Conservative colleagues in the Senate who supported her censure. There are limits to free speech, as there should be.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Take it up with her Conservative colleagues in the Senate who supported her censure. There are limits to free speech, as there should be.


And disagreeing with the current narrative should never be one of the limits. Failing that, one living in Germany during the 1930s would have to agree with Hitler's views on Jews, Roma, Poles, Homosexuals.... After all that was the official narrative at that time, in that place and dissent was not allowed. That and the Stalin purges should serve as bleak reminders of where censorship and censure can lead.

Censorship and censure are the tools of tyrants. Whether they be Stalin, Hitler or the current crop of globalists.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Take it up with her Conservative colleagues in the Senate who supported her censure. There are limits to free speech, as there should be.


Im guessing this is an exchange that won't go anywhere. Unfortunately, too many people's brains just freezes at that word, 'free'. Thats where it ends for them, and nothing will ever get them to stop and consider that perhaps, free speech, while 'free', isn't without consequences. No one ever said Trump cant say what he says anywhere else. But this detail completely escapes them.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Im guessing this is an exchange that won't go anywhere. Unfortunately, too many people's brains just freezes at that word, 'free'. Thats where it ends for them, and nothing will ever get them to stop and consider that perhaps, free speech, while 'free', isn't without consequences. No one ever said Trump cant say what he says anywhere else. But this detail completely escapes them.


The rights of your fist ends where the rights of my nose begins. There is no freedom without responsibility. Too bad too many people skip that part of the lesson.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Im guessing this is an exchange that won't go anywhere. Unfortunately, too many people's brains just freezes at that word, 'free'. Thats where it ends for them, and nothing will ever get them to stop and consider that perhaps, free speech, while 'free', isn't without consequences. No one ever said Trump cant say what he says anywhere else. But this detail completely escapes them.



Not sure how Trump weaseled his way into this discussion. Must be more of that Freddie math rearing its ugly head.


----------



## groovetube

See? That’s why you don’t even engage these idiots. Now it completely forgets the article it posted about twitter and trump.

This is how the social media numbskullery goes.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> See? That’s why you don’t even engage these idiots. Now it completely forgets the article it posted about twitter and trump.
> 
> This is how the social media numbskullery goes.



Exactement as the French would say. Some people are just not worth the effort.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> See? That’s why you don’t even engage these idiots. Now it completely forgets the article it posted about twitter and trump.
> 
> This is how the social media numbskullery goes.


Actually we were talking about Senator Beyak. Trump is the American thread, so maybe Freddie-Reading is as problematic as Freddie-Math.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Exactement as the French would say. Some people are just not worth the effort.


Nope.


----------



## eMacMan

Despite efforts to Trump the Canadian thread it is the Canadian Political Thread.

Is anyone surprised by this? Does the Kool-Aid crowd even remember SNC-Lavalin?

https://www.blacklocks.ca/150m-more...2UHTiIyTCWnMmB24EsFe7VbHEklutu0BH6DoAMomT4FoQ


> SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. was awarded a $150 million pandemic contract despite former executives being cited for bid-rigging, fraud, bribery and illegal campaign contributions, records show. Opposition MPs have questioned why the Québec engineering firm is not blacklisted as a federal contractor: “We look like a banana republic.”


----------



## eMacMan

Love this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?fbcli...rLkMKsHlMC9BCY&v=9JLfpiSyjIA&feature=youtu.be

A different parody here:
https://soundcloud.com/corby-leigh-kemp/coward-of-the-cottage


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Another Rex Murphy article that's sure to have the Politically Correct types howling in fury.
> https://nationalpost.com/opinion/re...pFSp_Hnw8sJYV3m8nJgg6Nc1GDP4V78qmdEAv5ZNAiAh0


As god as my witness, I have NO idea how Trump got into the Canadian political thread! None whatsoever! I swear, to gaaaaawdddd!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> As god as my witness, I have NO idea how Trump got into the Canadian political thread! None whatsoever! I swear, to gaaaaawdddd!



He’s an attention whore, what can we say?


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> He’s an attention whore, what can we say?


Man.7 years I didn’t log in here. What a sad state this place is now. I guess truth and facts didn’t quite happen now did it? At least a few decent posters come by, but the trolling still happens and that’s too bad. Some say it keeps things alive. I’d say the opposite. Disagreement and lively go arounds so are one thing, but this brainless sh!!t just drives people away. Me included.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

I just try to ignore those who aren’t likely to converse civilly. Doesn’t always work, but I soldier on.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Man.7 years I didn’t log in here. What a sad state this place is now. I guess truth and facts didn’t quite happen now did it? At least a few decent posters come by, but the trolling still happens and that’s too bad. Some say it keeps things alive. I’d say the opposite. Disagreement and lively go arounds so are one thing, but this brainless sh!!t just drives people away. Me included.





Freddie_Biff said:


> I just try to ignore those who aren’t likely to converse civilly. Doesn’t always work, but I soldier on.


A wise course of action. I tend to just stay away from the threads that deal in politics. My views are my own. Such is Life. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## eMacMan

The TrueDope strikes again. Surely you did not really believe his attempt to spin the interment camps?

https://westernstandardonline.com/2...VEJXikvt_QQWjEdf0xaAzzDoeRPrKQoFYuqhuMsoLe12A



> A Red Deer mom has told of her anguish after watching her son being detained at the Calgary airport, loaded into a van, and taken to an undisclosed isolation centre.
> 
> Rebekah McDonald was at the airport late Saturday night, hoping to welcome her son, Ethan, back to Calgary from Arizona. McDonald hadn’t seen her son for two years.
> But the joy soon turned to tears when her son was taken into custody for having what the Canadian federal government considers the wrong COVID-19 test.
> 
> “They are saying it’s not accurate and they are wanting to take him to a quarantine facility. They won’t let me talk to him. They won’t let me see him. They won’t come and talk to me.
> 
> The border patrol services say they have nothing to do with it – they won’t tell me who has to do with it,” said McDonald in a social media video as she walked through the airport concourse.
> 
> “They won’t tell me who’s picking him up. They won’t tell me where he’s going. They won’t tell me anything.
> 
> “They say he doesn’t have a choice, that it’s the law. They say I don’t have the right to talk to him. They are taking him against my will and his will and I’m not okay with it. I don’t know what to do about it and I don’t know where I’m supposed to find him.


----------



## eMacMan

I hate passing along sponsored items, but this one does nail it. 
https://ch1.ca/are-you-in-an-abusiv...zG5nnNsPpsWvm-OZP8O3Av9JcP-SBY7x93e8QPIemeSno
*Warning: Article is satirical in nature. If you drink Kool-Aid you are strongly advised to refrain from reading this article. Poster cannot be held accountable should you suffer a brain aneurysm or any other ill effects after reading this article. *


----------



## eMacMan

.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> The TrueDope strikes again. Surely you did not really believe his attempt to spin the interment camps?
> 
> https://westernstandardonline.com/2...VEJXikvt_QQWjEdf0xaAzzDoeRPrKQoFYuqhuMsoLe12A



Where would you suggest they keep people who need to quarantine?


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> Where would you suggest they keep people who need to quarantine?


Yes I am not sure what the issue is. Sounds like people are feeling very self entitled. He got the wrong COVID test so he is in quarantine. Not sure if the government gave wrong info or he did not pay attention to what he was doing, either way it is incorrect, we are in a pandemic, he can stay in quarantine for 14 days. I am curious about the no contact, does that just mean in person, which would be obvious, or he has no phone or internet access in order to communicate with friends and family?


----------



## Macfury

It's interesting to see what a wuss you still are after seven years, groovetube! You simply want a public forum where your posts go unchallenged. Looks like you and the other "decent" posters killed both MacDiscussions and MacMagic with your "lively" shuffleboard banter. 



groovetube said:


> Man.7 years I didn’t log in here. What a sad state this place is now. I guess truth and facts didn’t quite happen now did it? At least a few decent posters come by, but the trolling still happens and that’s too bad. Some say it keeps things alive. I’d say the opposite. Disagreement and lively go arounds so are one thing, but this brainless sh!!t just drives people away. Me included.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> Yes I am not sure what the issue is. Sounds like people are feeling very self entitled. He got the wrong COVID test so he is in quarantine. Not sure if the government gave wrong info or he did not pay attention to what he was doing, either way it is incorrect, we are in a pandemic, he can stay in quarantine for 14 days. I am curious about the no contact, does that just mean in person, which would be obvious, or he has no phone or internet access in order to communicate with friends and family?


From what I understand, they are being charged $2000 or more for their stay in the interment camps, and it's not like the officially approved tests have earned a reputation for honesty. Nor was prior warning given that this change was coming. It's interment regardless of how many times the Prime Moron denies it.

These individuals could and were expecting to isolate at home with their family, not at all unreasonable given that the PM and various other political scum have been able to travel freely without being treated in this manner on their return.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Where would you suggest they keep people who need to quarantine?


It seems that there are those who are very fixated on the phrase "internment camps". Often the same ones that screamed loudest about Trudeau letting the people arriving in Canada run around unmonitored spreading the virus.

If only they can figure out what they want before they speak.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> It seems that there are those who are very fixated on the phrase "internment camps". Often the same ones that screamed loudest about Trudeau letting the people arriving in Canada run around unmonitored spreading the virus.
> 
> If only they can figure out what they want before they speak.


When you treat the Prime Moron and various other traveling political scumbags in the same manner then you might be able to pretend to have a valid argument for your interment camps.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It's interesting to see what a wuss you still are after seven years, groovetube! You simply want a public forum where your posts go unchallenged. Looks like you and the other "decent" posters killed both MacDiscussions and MacMagic with your "lively" shuffleboard banter.


Ah. Still the pathetic little troll weenie you always were. Its just you never got much better at it have you, still the same taunts from 7 years ago, nothing new! But you spent 7 years of your life here day in and day out performing this curious endeavour. The rest of us moved on but you seem rather frustrated and still harbour some anger over the shutting down of some forums. People move on, have lives and keep in touch still. But here you are! Doin a bang up job! :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It's interesting to see what a wuss you still are after seven years, groovetube! You simply want a public forum where your posts go unchallenged. Looks like you and the other "decent" posters killed both MacDiscussions and MacMagic with your "lively" shuffleboard banter.


Why the insults, Macfury? Best to live and let live and just accept someone who has returned. The same sort of negative comments by some have kept me away from the political threads. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Nice to see how you've "moved on" by returning to ehMac from the wreckage of the platforms you once called home. 

_(At least EhMac has the "clapping" emoji so you can go back to applauding yourself!)_



groovetube said:


> Ah. Still the pathetic little troll weenie you always were. Its just you never got much better at it have you, still the same taunts from 7 years ago, nothing new! But you spent 7 years of your life here day in and day out performing this curious endeavour. The rest of us moved on but you seem rather frustrated and still harbour some anger over the shutting down of some forums. People move on, have lives and keep in touch still. But here you are! Doin a bang up job! :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## groovetube

man, you're not even trying anymore, are you. Why even bother?


----------



## Macfury

Dr. G, if you had interceded at the point that groovetube insulted other members of this community, I might have been swayed to hold off. 



Dr.G. said:


> Why the insults, Macfury? Best to live and let live and just accept someone who has returned. The same sort of negative comments by some have kept me away from the political threads. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Dr. G, if you had interceded at the point that groovetube insulted other members of this community, I might have been swayed to hold off.


Well, I just came on today so I just saw the recent postings. I still believe in live and let live. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

It’s like a strange deja vu. Even the taunts were almost word for word the same. Don’t you get tired of that? Well, I guess not. And the outrage if I bite back. Classic.

Carry on! I’m out of time today.


----------



## Macfury

When you're tired of your regular life, come back for another visit!



groovetube said:


> It’s like a strange deja vu. Even the taunts were almost word for word the same. Don’t you get tired of that? Well, I guess not. And the outrage if I bite back. Classic.
> 
> Carry on! I’m out of time today.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> It's interesting to see what a wuss you still are after seven years, groovetube! You simply want a public forum where your posts go unchallenged. Looks like you and the other "decent" posters killed both MacDiscussions and MacMagic with your "lively" shuffleboard banter.



What a shallow and bitter person you seem to be. Why? Why not just be happy someone has returned to this rather lifeless forum?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> It seems that there are those who are very fixated on the phrase "internment camps". Often the same ones that screamed loudest about Trudeau letting the people arriving in Canada run around unmonitored spreading the virus.
> 
> If only they can figure out what they want before they speak.



I’d go with “temporary lodgings.” And anyway people were warned about non-essential travel at this time. If it’s going to cost them more to be quarantined upon returning, so be it. Gotta budget for that kind of thing these days. Or just don’t go.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> What a shallow and bitter person you seem to be. Why? Why not just be happy someone has returned to this rather lifeless forum?


he still thinks the trolling and useless windups is "challenging posts". Countless people tried to counter this nonsense but eventually gave up. I looked back a little and I don't see anything that can be considered as challenging anything in any way. The taunts of you don't know how things work and yer gonna be surprised well, I guess that's about as good as it gets I suppose. Its just disappointing, but that's social media for you.


----------



## Macfury

I'll just have to live with your opinion of me. A heavy burden to bear, but there you have it!



Freddie_Biff said:


> What a shallow and bitter person you seem to be. Why? Why not just be happy someone has returned to this rather lifeless forum?


----------



## groovetube

I think we’re just waiting to hear more about how Hugo Chavez made the dominion machines vote for Biden! Maybe the machines made people eat babies too. Isn’t that what you trump/Qanon sorts believe?


----------



## Macfury

I thought you were out of time! Couldn't keep away, eh?


----------



## Dr.G.

Freddie_Biff said:


> What a shallow and bitter person you seem to be. Why? Why not just be happy someone has returned to this rather lifeless forum?


Yes, welcome back a fellow ehMacLander. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Well I know the lay of the land. It took about 5 posts and already he’s fixated on my working schedule. I don’t think he’s had this much interaction in a while! 

Imagine if the conversation suddenly swung to Canadian politics. Crazier things have happened!


----------



## Macfury

Stop talking about me and I might believe you are interested in Canadian politics.

By the way, I watched that performance of Skylab at the Horseshoe on YouTube. That was great work! The Monks were under-rated.


----------



## groovetube

wow, you found a fun full night almost a decade ago! Did you watch the combo with no shame? John Ford from the monks was there and got up with us a few songs later.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, I did, right through Ford's appearance. I was looking for the original _Skylab _video, found that one and watched it straight through. It was a great performance. You guys were really rocking it! _Skylab_ was one of my favourite tracks on that album, with its echoes of the Tornadoes' _Telstar_.



groovetube said:


> wow, you found a fun full night almost a decade ago! Did you watch the combo with no shame? John Ford from the monks was there and got up with us a few songs later.


----------



## groovetube

Well that’s great. There’s lots of stuff out there, I’ve never hidden. Sometimes there’s someone who comes along and thinks it’s funny to use it to be an ass. I tend to prefer interacting on personal or opinion stuff mostly with people I know, or have a good sense of who they are if I havent met them. I ’ve always found conversations much better in those cases. When it’s someone you haven’t a clue and it devolves into nonsense, it’s never a satisfying exchange.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

True true.


----------



## eMacMan

I've never hidden my dislike of TwoFaceBook. Today there was a rather insulting ad from the Liebarrels featuring a video of Justa TwoFace hisself. Did the obvious and reported the ad, but was faced with a bit of a dilemma. Had to choose just one category when all of them applied equally. Really there should be an 'All of the Above' button


----------



## CubaMark

I label ALL Facebook spam ads / sponsored content / whatever as "Sexually Inappropriate".


----------



## wonderings

I don't use Facebook so that helps. I have marked all sorts of things for adds that I have no interest in or find inappropriate but it does not seem to do anything, they keep shovelling me the same stuff.


----------



## groovetube

That’s probably because their framework likely figures out of someone constantly labels something they deem incorrect and results in nothing. But if you successfully label stuff and the odd one you nail they may take notice.

may.


----------



## CubaMark

isn't it just so fascinating that the only time we ever hear of these nefarious monitoring of private citizens by agents of the state, those being monitored are in the majority (universally?) folks on the "Left"? You know, the ones who are concerned with such dastardly causes as environmental protection, poverty, indigenous rights, anti-war, etc. 

I'm not going to excerpt this story - it should be read in its entirety:

*Alberta MLA was monitored by 5 different police officers, documents show*
_Lethbridge police repeatedly searched Shannon Phillips's personal information in their database_

(CBC)​


----------



## wonderings

CubaMark said:


> isn't it just so fascinating that the only time we ever hear of these nefarious monitoring of private citizens by agents of the state, those being monitored are in the majority (universally?) folks on the "Left"? You know, the ones who are concerned with such dastardly causes as environmental protection, poverty, indigenous rights, anti-war, etc.
> 
> I'm not going to excerpt this story - it should be read in its entirety:
> ​*Alberta MLA was monitored by 5 different police officers, documents show*​_Lethbridge police repeatedly searched Shannon Phillips's personal information in their database_​​(CBC)​


I am surprised flags do not come up when any member of Government is searched by whatever control and review board the Police have. I know they do for celebrities. My brother is a police officer and this came up in discussion some years back that if he tried to search a celebrity, say Justin Bieber as an example, it was would raise some flags and he would most likely be contacted to make sure he had grounds for searching the personal information they have access to. I would think the same would come up with politicians. Not that police cannot search or investigate but they would need to show cause.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I am surprised flags do not come up when any member of Government is searched by whatever control and review board the Police have. I know they do for celebrities. My brother is a police officer and this came up in discussion some years back that if he tried to search a celebrity, say Justin Bieber as an example, it was would raise some flags and he would most likely be contacted to make sure he had grounds for searching the personal information they have access to. I would think the same would come up with politicians. Not that police cannot search or investigate but they would need to show cause.


The use of this sort of bureaucratic might to investigate rivals happens on both sides of the political spectrum, depending on who has the power in the estanblishment. It's simply an indication that the state has too much power, not that it is being used against the "wrong" people. Look at how contractors in the U.S. were using the NSA surveillance database to check on ther wives, girlfriends and daughters' boyfriends.


----------



## eMacMan

Nicely put.


----------



## groovetube

Sure. If you’re an idiot, I suppose it would be ‘nicely put’.


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> The use of this sort of bureaucratic might to investigate rivals happens on both sides of the political spectrum, depending on who has the power in the estanblishment. It's simply an indication that the state has too much power, not that it is being used against the "wrong" people. Look at how contractors in the U.S. were using the NSA surveillance database to check on ther wives, girlfriends and daughters' boyfriends.


Yep definitely the fault of the "estanblishment".


----------



## groovetube

When in doubt, blame the establishment!


----------



## Macfury

I would extend that to the estanblishment.


----------



## groovetube

I don’t think that fruit was even hanging.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

> Notley's NDP opens wide lead on Kenney and UCP in latest poll
> 
> The poll found 40 per cent support for the NDP compared to 20 per cent for the governing UCP with the opposition party leading in all areas of the province


 https://calgaryherald.com/news/loc...j5C9PSzSmp2trrRLWrgOkE2OdWtxDBSnlsYFfjPaTVKIs


----------



## groovetube

Pffft the Calgary herald. They stopped being a credible conservative voice years ago.



I don’t know a lot of albertan politocs just what I hear from friends and family. Kenny isn’t doing so well which is little surprise.

Doug Ford here Isn’t much better. It’s hard to imagine any dumber than this bag of hammers, but I’d rather not find out... But the alternatives aren’t so appealing and clear so it’s tough to predict what’ll happen.


----------



## Macfury

I wonder where I can find a credible conservative voice that liberals will trust.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I wonder where I can find a credible conservative voice that liberals will trust.


Well there’s you, Macfury! We always hang on to every word you say. You’ve been on a roll lately.


----------



## Macfury

That's why I'm looking for additional credible conservative voices other than myself. The responsibility is a bit much to bear at times.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Well there’s you, Macfury! We always hang on to every word you say.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> That's why I'm looking for additional credible conservative voices other than myself. The responsibility is a bit much to bear at times.


*too But you can do it! We believe in you! And the Epoch Times is pretty good too!


----------



## Macfury

Just put your sources in the right order. If you can't confirm with me, probably best to dismiss it.



Freddie_Biff said:


> *too But you can do it! We believe in you! And the Epoch Times is pretty good too!


----------



## eMacMan

It would appear some of Dr. G's concerns regarding medically assisted deaths were well founded. The BC NDP has turned his words into prophesy. Why let a patient who chooses to do so, wait for nature to take it's course? This is after all the entire purpose of hospice care.

Headline is somewhat misleading, they were ordered to allow medically assisted suicide on site, as opposed to transferring anyone who chose medial suicide to a hospital. I believe the b4$t4rd$ have seized the property but am still trying to confirm that.









Provincial govt orders Canadian hospice to begin killing sick patients in February - LifeSite


The British Columbia non-profit faces the possibility of having its public funding discontinued unless it complies




www.lifesitenews.com






> DELTA, British Columbia, January 6, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) — The British Columbia government is ordering a palliative care hospice to allow its patients to be killed onsite through “medically-assisted death,” or euthanasia, by February 3.
> 
> Fraser Health Authority (FHA) issued the deadline to the Delta Hospice Society in late December but did not specify the consequences if it does not comply, reported the Delta Optimist.
> 
> It’s the latest development in the society’s long-running battle to prevent the lethal injection of patients onsite at the 10-bed Irene Thomas Hospice it runs in a suburb of Delta, a city south of Vancouver.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> It would appear some of Dr. G's concerns regarding medically assisted deaths were well founded. The BC NDP has turned his words into prophesy. Why let a patient who chooses to do so, wait for nature to take it's course? This is after all the entire purpose of hospice care.
> 
> Headline is somewhat misleading, they were ordered to allow medically assisted suicide on site, as opposed to transferring anyone who chose medial suicide to a hospital. I believe the b4$t4rd$ have seized the property but am still trying to confirm that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Provincial govt orders Canadian hospice to begin killing sick patients in February - LifeSite
> 
> 
> The British Columbia non-profit faces the possibility of having its public funding discontinued unless it complies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lifesitenews.com


This is the scary thing that in order to get anything from the Government you need to subscribe to things that would go against most churches and other faith organizations beliefs. I know funding was cut off for Churches that would not agree to the governments ideology for youth summer employment. This is very worrying as where does it end?


----------



## groovetube

I also heard that if you don't wear goat leggings and sacrifice babies to the god of Beelzebub, they'll put you into re-education camps.

I find this equally disturbing.


----------



## wonderings

groovetube said:


> I also heard that if you don't wear goat leggings and sacrifice babies to the god of Beelzebub, they'll put you into re-education camps.
> 
> I find this equally disturbing.


Not sure what your point is, are you trying to say it is not a big deal having a government trying to dictate values? Or are you against religious organizations being involved in charity completely? This may not be a huge thing right now but it is a slippery slope. Of course if you want to head into some Orwellian world where the government controls what you think and believe then this is just a step in the right direction.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> I also heard that if you don't wear goat leggings and sacrifice babies to the god of Beelzebub, they'll put you into re-education camps.
> 
> I find this equally disturbing.


Does not surprise me in the least that the Kovid Kool-aid Krew should fail to comprehend the serious of the BC hospice issue. Further proof that wearing masks for extended periods causes brain damage.


----------



## groovetube

wonderings said:


> Not sure what your point is, are you trying to say it is not a big deal having a government trying to dictate values? Or are you against religious organizations being involved in charity completely? This may not be a huge thing right now but it is a slippery slope. Of course if you want to head into some Orwellian world where the government controls what you think and believe then this is just a step in the right direction.


My point is your post is without any merit without specific examples. Just sweeping declarations without any qualifications seems to be the way on social media I guess.

I merely exemplified this silliness of it all. Garbage in, garbage out as they say. 

This is what passes for political debate these days?

bleh.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> Does not surprise me in the least that the Kovid Kool-aid Krew should fail to comprehend the serious of the BC hospice issue. Further proof that wearing masks for extended periods causes brain damage.


Oh stop it. Have you gone down to the ERs in your nearest city's hospitals yet to tell all the doctors and nurses who wear masks often for 12-18 hour shifts, often doubled up with face shields that it causes brain damage? And they're all idiots and Kool aid drinkers? 'cause if you don't we won't take you seriously.

Please post the selfie video of this if you do.  we wanna see.


----------



## wonderings

groovetube said:


> My point is your post is without any merit without specific examples. Just sweeping declarations without any qualifications seems to be the way on social media I guess.
> 
> I merely exemplified this silliness of it all. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.
> 
> This is what passes for political debate these days?
> 
> bleh.


How is it without merit? The federal government makes charity groups sign an acknowledgement that they respect charter rights, including "women's rights and women's reproductive rights.

The issue is the reproductive rights aka abortion. If you do not sign this you cannot receive funding. Not to get into an abortion argument, I think I understand both sides though disagree with abortion. I can see not having an issue with it if I did not believe the fetus was a human being. On the other hand if you believe that life begins at conception than how could anyone agree with the murder of the unborn yet equally as important and valuable as the rest? I assumed what the federal government did was common knowledge but now that I think about it if I did not move in the circles I do I don't think I would be aware of it either. 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/summer-jobs-program-1.4491602


----------



## groovetube

Well gee, if Im supposed to get outraged, it's important I think anyways, to know what one is to be outraged at! I didn't realize that one can just make some sweeping statements without any examples or really anything at all, and we're supposed to go... yeah! Trudeau bad! I already know the guy is a jackass.

But what I didn't see coming, was that it's over demanding that government funded charities, assert that they respect women's rights. And included in that, is a women's right to choose, as the prohibition on abortion was struck down, and if you have political aims to challenge that, do it on someone else's dime thank you.

NEXT!


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> How is it without merit?


Answer: Nothing you can say or demonstrate will have merit. You can be the guy who authored the policy and your post would be considered without merit.

A big helping of word salad will finish you off for even posting that garbage! NEXT?


----------



## groovetube

Well certainly having a pathetic troll weenie mewling some embarrassing nonsense will help clarify right?

NEXT!

And before anyone can whine Im being 'abrasive', I merely shovelling right back at macfury exactly the same crap he has swiped at tons of members who gave up and left for quite some time. Why do you think the other few members here refuse to set foot in here?

How do you like it now dip****?


----------



## groovetube

... duplicate post


----------



## polywog

groovetube said:


> And before anyone can whine Im being 'abrasive', I merely shovelling right back at macfury exactly the same crap he has swiped at tons of members who gave up and left for quite some time.


"I'm not being a troll, because Macfury was a troll first!!" said the grown up.



groovetube said:


> Why do you think the other few members here refuse to set foot in here?


It's cute you think you aren't part of the problem.


----------



## groovetube

Listen. I understand maybe you haven’t been here as long as a few others. No one really, has ever been able to have a rational discussion here with macfury or his cohorts around. So that’s why you’ll see former members once in a while come by and either give up, take funny names and goad, because we all know. I’m sure you’re trying and I’m sorry if you’re caught in the crossfire. And yeah, some of my posts are pretty troll like because, I'm imitating some of macfury's tactics. Badly probably. But you get the point by now.

So don’t complain to me because people just make excuses for the guy. Ignore him then! pffft. . I’m just giving back what he gives. He wants to goad and wind people up? Well fine. I’ll do it back. This place became a ****hole that everyone fled when the past owner said oh just ignore him! Pretended it was everyone else that was the problem and then just let these jackasses continue to ruin the place. One of them, actually said, and I quote, “get rid of groovetube and everything will go back to normal. That was 7 years ago.

Is everything back to normal yet? He’s already moderating his goading after I’ve called him out. That’s a good thing! Come on. Someone say if I leave ya’ll can go back to normal. I need the laugh.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Tuesday, April 6, 2021

A message from Opposition Leader Rachel Notley concerning the draft curriculum released by the Alberta UCP government:

ALBERTA NDP COMMITS TO REVERSING JASON KENNEY’S CURRICULUM, BUILDING NEW MATERIAL THROUGH BROAD PUBLIC CONSULTATION 

An NDP Government would reverse the backwards changes to the provincial Kindergarten to Grade 6 curriculum put forward by Jason Kenney and the UCP and launch broad public consultations before introducing new drafts to pilot in Alberta’s classrooms.

Assuming the provincial election is held in Spring 2023 and if I am successful in being elected, the goal would be to have new drafts of the Kindergarten to Grade 4 curriculum in classrooms by fall 2024. Drafts for later grades would follow in subsequent years and all Albertans would have the ability to provide input on the curriculum drafts.

We have been overwhelmed with concerns from students, parents, teachers, subject matter experts and more about the curriculum put forward by Jason Kenney and his friends. We’ve heard from Albertans that the curriculum being proposed will not prepare students for advanced education, for their careers and for their lives in general.

In fact, this curriculum jeopardizes our economy by not providing children with the essential critical-thinking skills they need to succeed in a modern workplace and by implementing outdated educational practices that discourage more parents from choosing Alberta.

This UCP government's curriculum was built in secret, and edited by hand-picked political advisors, including one with systemically discriminatory views. You cannot – and should not — build curriculum without broad buy-in from Albertans. This isn’t about Jason Kenney and his ideology, this is about Alberta’s education and the learning and skills we pass on to our future leaders.

Contrary to repeated claims that the NDP curriculum rewrite was politicized, the truth is it was developed in concert with tens of thousands of educators, subject-matter experts and parents.

Alberta’s NDP has been fielding specific complaints about the proposed curriculum at KidsDeserveBetter.ca. Since Thursday, thousands of submissions have been received and many more have come through emails, phone calls and social media messages.

Five Alberta school boards have already said they won’t pilot the Kenney curriculum — and it’s only been a week. This harmful material is based on forcing young children to memorize long lists of trivia, rather than building their learning and understanding skills. It contains errors, it replaces important elements of Canadian history with American history and it deliberately removes or delays teaching the history, art, faith and culture of Albertans with non-European backgrounds.


----------



## Macfury

Sadly, no party ever returns to power after being vanquished in Alberta.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Sadly, no party ever returns to power after being vanquished in Alberta.


Historically that’s true. But there could be a first time, and at the rate Kenney is pissing off people, it’s very possible.


----------



## wonderings

I was expecting to see some hot button issues that were trying to be taught or not taught. I laughed when I read what was in the curriculum. I will say it all sounds very interesting, save the jazz bit. Definitely seems like it might be a little dense for 6 year olds.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> I was expecting to see some hot button issues that were trying to be taught or not taught. I laughed when I read what was in the curriculum. I will say it all sounds very interesting, save the jazz bit. Definitely seems like it might be a little dense for 6 year olds.


There is an awful lot of emphasis on American history, which makes sense since it was lifted from an American curriculum. Common Core from Virginia, I believe.


----------



## CubaMark

*Alberta NDP would likely form majority if election held today, new poll suggests*

If an election in Alberta were held today, the NDP would likely win a majority, as support for the governing United Conservative Party plummets, according to a new poll commissioned by CBC News. 

The poll, conducted in March and April, suggests all parts of the province are souring on the current government, with declines in Calgary, smaller municipalities and rural areas. But it also shows a fractured electorate, with a sizable chunk of voters looking for a third option. 

It also shows Premier Jason Kenney's approval falling precipitously since he was first elected. 

The findings are more bad news for a party that has struggled to overcome persistent economic challenges and the pandemic, and which is now facing a caucus revolt over public health restrictions. They could indicate a turbulent near future as Alberta navigates a socio-economic and political crossroads.












https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-ndp-majority-poll-1.5986052


----------



## Freddie_Biff

CubaMark said:


> *Alberta NDP would likely form majority if election held today, new poll suggests*
> 
> If an election in Alberta were held today, the NDP would likely win a majority, as support for the governing United Conservative Party plummets, according to a new poll commissioned by CBC News.
> 
> The poll, conducted in March and April, suggests all parts of the province are souring on the current government, with declines in Calgary, smaller municipalities and rural areas. But it also shows a fractured electorate, with a sizable chunk of voters looking for a third option.
> 
> It also shows Premier Jason Kenney's approval falling precipitously since he was first elected.
> 
> The findings are more bad news for a party that has struggled to overcome persistent economic challenges and the pandemic, and which is now facing a caucus revolt over public health restrictions. They could indicate a turbulent near future as Alberta navigates a socio-economic and political crossroads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-ndp-majority-poll-1.5986052


Good news and not entirely surprising. Jason Kenney has botched his premiership. He’s also a terrible gambler. He botched the Keystone XL by betting that Trump would win, he botched our pension money by investing everything in AimCo, and he’s botched the pandemic response with half-measures. He’s pissed off the medical community in the midst of a pandemic, he’s shut down family businesses while allowing Walmart and Costco to remain open and enjoy record profits, he didn’t shutter GraceLife when he should have, and 16 of his own MLA’s are revolting on him. He’s not a particularly effective leader.


----------



## Macfury

Notley could have moved several pipeline projects during her tenure but chose to play to her small base instead. Pandemic will be over by the next election and Kenney will win, although I still shake my head over the WildRose defection to the PCs that could have turned into a political dynasty.


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> he botched our pension money by investing everything in AimCo,


Very dumb



Freddie_Biff said:


> He’s pissed off the medical community in the midst of a pandemic,


Laying off half of the provincial medical cleaning staff in the midst of a misproclaimed panicdemic was indeed a bad move. If it was as scary as proclaimed why lay off those tasked with keeping the environment sterile?



Freddie_Biff said:


> he’s shut down family businesses while allowing Walmart and Costco to remain open and enjoy record profits,


Again incidental transmission of SARs-2 is almost unheard of. When those who test positive for SARs but are asymptomatic, are isolated for extended periods of time (days or weeks) with others, the rate of transmission is under 1%. Shutting down any business at this point is clearly intended to destroy those businesses and has absolutely nothing to do with protecting public health.



Freddie_Biff said:


> he didn’t shutter GraceLife when he should have, and 16 of his own MLA’s are revolting on him. He’s not a particularly effective leader.


Again zero cases of SARs-2 transmission, for the same reasons outlined above. Pretty much totally ignored on the lamestream, but the truth is he has surrounded the church with two sets of fences and turned it into an RCMP Staßi compound, complete with two SWAT teams. The pastor was placed in maximum security for 35 days, even though should he eventually be found guilty, none of the charges against him carried jail time. A sizeable portion of the Kenney base claims to be religious, and I can assure you the reason they are pissed revolves around this gross mistreatment of Grace Life and its pastor. Of course the RiNOs (Religous in Name Only) might have some difficulty comprehending how truly evil the Kenney-TrueDope attacks on the religious communities truly are.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> A sizeable portion of the Kenney base claims to be religious, and I can assure you the reason they are pissed revolves around this gross mistreatment of Grace Life and its pastor. Of course the RiNOs (Religous in Name Only) might have some difficulty comprehending how truly evil the Kenney-TrueDope attacks on the religious communities truly are.


I doubt they will seek solace with the NDP.


----------



## eMacMan

More on Grace Life. To put it so simply even a Kovid Kool-aid addict can comprehend:
Thirteen months in Deena Hinshaw and the Kenney Kabal still can't produce any evidence supporting the need for lock downs or any of the other tyrannical measures currently in place.
Court permits Government to avoid producing Dr. Hinshaw’s evidence on lockdowns at May 3 trial of Pastor James Coates | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms


> “We are now in our thirteenth month of _Charter_-violating lockdowns, in what was supposed to be a temporary two-week measure to flatten the curve. By May 3, the government will have had fourteen months to assemble proper medical and scientific evidence to justify lockdowns and the resulting violations of our fundamental Charter freedoms. For the Alberta Government to request that it not be required to provide evidence on May 3 in support of Dr. Hinshaw’s Orders, while at the same time barricading the church, is both reprehensible and pathetic,” states Mr. Carpay.
> 
> *“The Alberta government supposedly has enough medical and scientific evidence to shut down hundreds of small businesses, pushing many of them into bankruptcy, and to cancel over 20,000 medically necessary surgeries, and to force Albertans into a third lockdown. But when asked to produce this medical and scientific evidence at trial, the Alberta government declares itself incapable of doing so,” continues Mr. Carpay.*
> 
> “Albertans who are suffering financially, emotionally and mentally under another lockdown, with more restrictions being threatened, are rightfully going to be outraged at this news,” notes Carpay.


----------



## polywog

eMacMan said:


> More on Grace Life. To put it so simply even a Kovid Kool-aid addict can comprehend:
> Thirteen months in Deena Hinshaw and the Kenney Kabal still can't produce any evidence supporting the need for lock downs or any of the other tyrannical measures currently in place.
> Court permits Government to avoid producing Dr. Hinshaw’s evidence on lockdowns at May 3 trial of Pastor James Coates | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms


How about keeping this in the coronavirus thread, instead of derailing this topic as well?


----------



## eMacMan

polywog said:


> How about keeping this in the coronavirus thread, instead of derailing this topic as well?


Actually state sponsored oppression of religious freedom is entirely political, regardless of the lame excuses behind the repression.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Actually state sponsored oppression of religious freedom is entirely political, regardless of the lame excuses behind the repression.


They tried to give some extra power to the police to enforce stay at home orders and keeping people in their region. Thankfully pretty much all the police forces in Ontario have said "NO" to this. PC's have backed down from a few things they received a large back lash from and I am glad people are starting to stand up.


----------



## eMacMan

Great interview with Theo Fleury.








“I’m not afraid of anything”: Theo Fleury on lockdowns, mental health & change Canada needs


The fearless source of news, opinion, and activism that you won't find anywhere else.




www.rebelnews.com


----------



## eMacMan

With the TrueDope's ban on plastic grocery bags finally hitting us locally, I thought it might be a good time to post this:


----------



## Macfury

I use my plastic bags two to three times. First for groceries, next to reuse for groceries, finally as garbage bags. Without them, I would need to buy plastic garbage bags.


----------



## wonderings

Are plastic bags really an issue for us here? The cartoon does make a great point there is plastic in just about everything we purchase. Are not the big polluters the unregulated countries like China, Pakistan and India where all the junk is coming from in the oceans? Or are Canadian and US waste companies also disposing in the ocean?


----------



## polywog

It's probably worth pointing out that there are many types of plastics, Polyethylene is only one (and there are many varieties of that.) IIRC, the shorter the polymer chain, the greater chance of pollution by micro particles of plastic. So it may be a good "first pass" at reducing plastic pollution on a macro and micro scale.

That said I'm not a chemist and I didn't even play one on TV. I would be interested in reading up the composition of grocery bags vs. garbage bags. I wonder if garbage bags would degrade more quickly etc.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Reduce. Reuse. Recycle. That’s my motto and I’m sticking to it.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I use my plastic bags two to three times. First for groceries, next to reuse for groceries, finally as garbage bags. Without them, I would need to buy plastic garbage bags.


That describes my use as well, although recently have not been reusing for groceries due to the need to stockpile. Since I use them to line the small garbage pail under the sink, when I run out they will no doubt be replaced by bags that are more profitable for the creme de la elite. But also much slower to break down.

BTW Dog owners typically carry a few in their pockets to deal with that form of waste. Also handy for picking up the innummerable face diapers that the true believers insist on dropping in parking lots, or on streets and sidewalks.


----------



## groovetube

why would it be more profitable for the uh, "creme de la elite"? Are these the people who drink lattes? Maybe use grey poupon on their hot dogs? I would think supplying all those grocery stores that many bags would be serious bread and butter for those companies. But Id be interested in seeing some numbers! And you need to use compostable bags for dog poop, or at least here you do.


----------



## eMacMan

The fact that your the only place on the planet requiring compost able bags for Dung pick up does not make it universal. Does Dougie require those for picking up face diapers as well?


----------



## groovetube

Did you forget to show some numbers as to your big conspiracy about bag companies making more money by not supplying grocery stores with plastic bags?

Im waiting. But certainly not holding my breath. I see you’ve sprayed a bunch of nonsensical conspiracy crap around here lately.


----------



## groovetube

Oh and face diapers. Huh. Don’t tell me you’re one of those whiney little weanies crying about putting on a damn mask for the good of others are you? Waaaah I have to wear massask my fweeedumbs are being hurt!! I’ve seen those numbskulls on Facebook too, always posting the same youtubes with some ‘doctor’ with slick monetized youtubes with ‘the truth they don’t want you to hear’

people are so gullible these days.


----------



## groovetube

polywog said:


> It's probably worth pointing out that there are many types of plastics, Polyethylene is only one (and there are many varieties of that.) IIRC, the shorter the polymer chain, the greater chance of pollution by micro particles of plastic. So it may be a good "first pass" at reducing plastic pollution on a macro and micro scale.
> 
> That said I'm not a chemist and I didn't even play one on TV. I would be interested in reading up the composition of grocery bags vs. garbage bags. I wonder if garbage bags would degrade more quickly etc.


One of my first jobs out of high school was working on a huge printing press that printed those bags. Next to us was the machines that cut the rolls we printed. They used the same poly film from extrusion to cut unprinted bags for garbage cans as we used to print grocery bags. (Not the black garbage bags, I don’t know what film that is) That was a number of years ago, I’m sure there are changes in poly composition now. We had two main types, the poly, and high density. The high density was our favorite because you’d put one roll on the press and it’s go for 2 hours. Often grocery store orders were for 10 million plus, so that’s a lot of bags. I think it was only recently that that film was added to the recyclables.

I’m down with the reduction in plastics. The packaging we have on products is just ridiculous, and we all know it. Governments are often afraid to go after that, they’re pro business after all. I’ve switched over to cloth bags and the reusable produce bags a long time ago. Produce keeps better in the reusable ones. I really wish there would be far more regulation to plastic use on packaging. As for grocery, I think the solution may be still in charging for the plastic bags. They’re there as an option but maybe 10cents or more might convince people.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Oh and face diapers. Huh. Don’t tell me you’re one of those whiney little weanies crying about putting on a damn mask for the good of others are you? Waaaah I have to wear massask my fweeedumbs are being hurt!! I’ve seen those numbskulls on Facebook too, always posting the same youtubes with some ‘doctor’ with slick monetized youtubes with ‘the truth they don’t want you to hear’
> 
> people are so gullible these days.


Yup, he’s one of those WLW’s. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> That describes my use as well, although recently have not been reusing for groceries due to the need to stockpile. Since I use them to line the small garbage pail under the sink, when I run out they will no doubt be replaced by bags that are more profitable for the creme de la elite. But also much slower to break down.


Large grocery store chains love to charge for individual bags because it externalizes a cost they once had to bear themselves and turns it into a profit centre, so I discount their support for these proposals straight off. It's like the light bulb suppliers and retailers supporting LEDs because the profit margins were huge compared to incandescents.

I occasionally used some of those reusable plastic "totes" with stitching that were being given away, but using them a few times I found the handles breaking and the corners ripping. They become filthy quickly and don't survive well in the washing machine. They contain enough plastic to make hundreds of regular grocery bags and they're not accepted for recycling--all trash.


----------



## groovetube

I highly doubt anyone cared or gave any credence to the grocery stores support for and apparent ensuing 'profit centers' in the first place, so that's a completely moot point. In fact the sobeys behind me banned this 'profit centre' some time ago so guess they weren't down with such profits.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Large grocery store chains love to charge for individual bags because it externalizes a cost they once had to bear themselves and turns it into a profit centre, so I discount their support for these proposals straight off. It's like the light bulb suppliers and retailers supporting LEDs because the profit margins were huge compared to incandescents.
> 
> I occasionally used some of those reusable plastic "totes" with stitching that were being given away, but using them a few times I found the handles breaking and the corners ripping. They become filthy quickly and don't survive well in the washing machine. They contain enough plastic to make hundreds of regular grocery bags and they're not accepted for recycling--all trash.


I hate to say it, but you may have a point there, Macfury.


----------



## groovetube

It's funny. I have probably about 20 some odd cloth grocery bags Ive collected over the past say, 20 years. And more recently the reusable produce bags. They're easier to use because the handles on them are awesome. They survive the washing machine pretty great, even the ones approaching near 20 years old are still going strong. 

So it's kind hard for me to imagine really, what the hell the fuss really is about. I haven't seen anyone declare 'It's my freedom to want plastic bags' yet (unless you're in Sobeys I guess) so I haven't yet figured out what the issue really is. I think Sobeys does offer paper bags. Someone told me they hated them and it made me wonder, all those years growing up with grocery paper bags, how on earth did we ever, ever survive such hardship?


----------



## wonderings

groovetube said:


> It's funny. I have probably about 20 some odd cloth grocery bags Ive collected over the past say, 20 years. And more recently the reusable produce bags. They're easier to use because the handles on them are awesome. They survive the washing machine pretty great, even the ones approaching near 20 years old are still going strong.
> 
> So it's kind hard for me to imagine really, what the hell the fuss really is about. I haven't seen anyone declare 'It's my freedom to want plastic bags' yet (unless you're in Sobeys I guess) so I haven't yet figured out what the issue really is. I think Sobeys does offer paper bags. Someone told me they hated them and it made me wonder, all those years growing up with grocery paper bags, how on earth did we ever, ever survive such hardship?


My Sobeys does not offer plastic, only paper and the reusable. Small town with the owner who you will see stocking shelves so probably more in touch with the community then your average owner in larger cities. I don't give it much thought, I just take whatever is cheapest and go about my day. Usually my shopping is an after thought on the way home from work, if I am at home first I just bring a reusable one. Never felt put out by anything they have done when it comes to bagging.


----------



## groovetube

wonderings said:


> My Sobeys does not offer plastic, only paper and the reusable. Small town with the owner who you will see stocking shelves so probably more in touch with the community then your average owner in larger cities. I don't give it much thought, I just take whatever is cheapest and go about my day. Usually my shopping is an after thought on the way home from work, if I am at home first I just bring a reusable one. Never felt put out by anything they have done when it comes to bagging.


AFAIK, this goes for the whole Sobeys chain, not just select towns, unless I have that wrong. Ive tended to go to sobeys over the loblaws here, though the fiesta farms here is just incredible.


----------



## polywog

wonderings said:


> My Sobeys does not offer plastic, only paper and the reusable.


I don't know about you, but I used their paper bags precisely once and haven't forgotten to bring my bags with me since. I find them awkward to carry, and they ripped easily. Mind you part of that might be that the cashier loaded them as though they were plastic bags. 

Handy to use for getting the charcoal bbq lit though.


----------



## groovetube

maybe that’s the idea! I dislike them as well as I often walk to my grocery store, (except for the big hauls every few weeks) their big failing is no handles.

as I said maybe it’s my age but somehow my family got along fine with them in the 60s/70s. I think grocery carts were common if you walked, I even had one early 80s when I first left home.


----------



## polywog

groovetube said:


> One of my first jobs out of high school was working on a huge printing press that printed those bags. Next to us was the machines that cut the rolls we printed. They used the same poly film from extrusion to cut unprinted bags for garbage cans as we used to print grocery bags. (Not the black garbage bags, I don’t know what film that is) That was a number of years ago, I’m sure there are changes in poly composition now. We had two main types, the poly, and high density. The high density was our favorite because you’d put one roll on the press and it’s go for 2 hours. Often grocery store orders were for 10 million plus, so that’s a lot of bags. I think it was only recently that that film was added to the recyclables.


Interesting, thanks.



groovetube said:


> as I said maybe it’s my age but somehow my family got along fine with them in the 60s/70s.


I feel they didn't pack the bags the same, or they were more generous with the number of bags they would use. And/or maybe the quality was better.


----------



## wonderings

polywog said:


> I don't know about you, but I used their paper bags precisely once and haven't forgotten to bring my bags with me since. I find them awkward to carry, and they ripped easily. Mind you part of that might be that the cashier loaded them as though they were plastic bags.
> 
> Handy to use for getting the charcoal bbq lit though.


Never had an issue with the paper bags, though I am buying for one so my grocery loads are not large. I like the overall feel of paper bags better, not sure why.


----------



## groovetube

polywog said:


> Interesting, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel they didn't pack the bags the same, or they were more generous with the number of bags they would use. And/or maybe the quality was better.


certainly the art of bag packing is probably fading. I think when I started using cloth I was more concerned about it compared to the days of just ramming stuff into as many plastic bags as needed as quickly as possible. As for paper bag quality? No idea. I feel like the ones of old were thicker but that's closing in on what, 40 years? My memory isn't that good. There is a sort of charm to using one or two if I just go over for a small number of things though.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> My Sobeys does not offer plastic, only paper and the reusable. Small town with the owner who you will see stocking shelves so probably more in touch with the community then your average owner in larger cities. I don't give it much thought, I just take whatever is cheapest and go about my day. Usually my shopping is an after thought on the way home from work, if I am at home first I just bring a reusable one. Never felt put out by anything they have done when it comes to bagging.


Sobey's in Toronto charges 10 cents for its paper bags in Toronto, vs. the nickel they once charged for the plastic.


----------



## Macfury

polywog said:


> I don't know about you, but I used their paper bags precisely once and haven't forgotten to bring my bags with me since. I find them awkward to carry, and they ripped easily. Mind you part of that might be that the cashier loaded them as though they were plastic bags.
> 
> Handy to use for getting the charcoal bbq lit though.


Just one frozen or refrigerated item, and the condensation finishes them off in a minute or two. The result for me is that if I happen to be walking past a Sobey's and realize I need an item or two, I keep walking until I find a store that will offer a bag that will last until I get home.

We used paper bags primarily when I was a kid, and that's why the stores switched to plastic. They would double bag, but they often kept soaking and ripping through. Also, they made lousy garbage bags for the same reason. Just a few eggshells and the bottom drops out.


----------



## groovetube

Sounds like some real deep seated trauma! 

At my sobeys they actually still have those produce bag rolls. If I need to use one of their paper bags (I wasn’t aware they charged for them?) and I have something wet I’ve learned to use one of those in a pinch. I actually got the idea from a cashier who used one for me at the cash on some ice cream and some other frozen thing.

but choice is grand here I have 3 within a 5min walk. I can choose between the two with no poly bags, or I can go to the Loblaws that gives free plastic bags but they’re the most expensive grocery store here go figure.


----------



## eMacMan

This should make it incredibly clear that it is all about oppression and turning Canada into a police state. Adolf would be proud, Stalin even more so! For Mussolini an exquisite wet dream!

C'mon a SWAT team to arrest a pastor for the crimes of; Preaching the gospel, running a soup kitchen, and publicly shaming Gestapo like thugs for being thugs. On a warrant obtained in a secret hearing!








POLICE STATE: Watch the moment a SWAT team arrests a Canadian pastor


The fearless source of news, opinion, and activism that you won't find anywhere else.




www.rebelnews.com













Calgary police obtain SECRET warrant to use “any force necessary” to disrupt church service


The fearless source of news, opinion, and activism that you won't find anywhere else.




www.rebelnews.com


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Sounds like some real deep seated trauma!
> 
> At my sobeys they actually still have those produce bag rolls. If I need to use one of their paper bags (I wasn’t aware they charged for them?) and I have something wet I’ve learned to use one of those in a pinch. I actually got the idea from a cashier who used one for me at the cash on some ice cream and some other frozen thing.
> 
> but choice is grand here I have 3 within a 5min walk. I can choose between the two with no poly bags, or I can go to the Loblaws that gives free plastic bags but they’re the most expensive grocery store here go figure.


I just discovered yesterday at Safeway they’re charging 15 cents each for paper bags.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rebel News. ‘Nuff said.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Rebel News. ‘Nuff said.


Does anyone still pay any attention to that attention whore?

Wow 15cents! Did you stomp out and loudly proclaim “I shall take my business elsewhere!” As though they really care?  

15 cents is darn communism!  

Brought to you by a couple nips of a nice 20yr scotch.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

This headline has to make conservatives squirm a bit; Kenney is now less popular than Trudeau....in Alberta!! 

New poll: only 7% of responses “very satisfied” with Kenney

 https://kimsiever.ca/2021/05/New p...2QqbnTo_tH3HhpcMhCOaUyrkXVpPZvS4pvO8A7YEbUTGY


----------



## eMacMan

Freddie_Biff said:


> This headline has to make conservatives squirm a bit; Kenney is now less popular than Trudeau....in Alberta!!
> 
> New poll: only 7% of responses “very satisfied” with Kenney
> 
> New poll: only 7% of responses “very satisfied” with Kenney


Interesting that you would post a bad link.

As to Kenney, he has gone 100s of miles out of his way to piss off his base, so yeah most Albertans are pissed off with him. OTOH I am sure the Kool-aid Klatch has to love all the restrictions, but then they are only about 7% of the population. Course he does allow a Food Truck Fair in Grimshaws home town and no problems whatsoever if you claim to be part of the Burn-Loot-Murder bunch. It's just those nasty freedom types that have to be stomped on.

Anyways we saw about 8500 deaths during the first wave. Add in masking and the second wave was around 13,000 deaths nation wide, pretty obvious masks did nothing to save lives. So why not add in even nastier lockdowns? Maybe that will help push the third wave over 20,000.


----------



## eMacMan

More evidence of corruption in the Police State of Alberta. Guards at Spy Hill Jail have refused to release, Artur Pawlowski and his brother in defiance of a judges order.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> This headline has to make conservatives squirm a bit; Kenney is now less popular than Trudeau....in Alberta!!
> 
> New poll: only 7% of responses “very satisfied” with Kenney
> 
> https://kimsiever.ca/2021/05/New p...2QqbnTo_tH3HhpcMhCOaUyrkXVpPZvS4pvO8A7YEbUTGY


Doug Ford is taking a beating in the polls as well, and rightfully so. Both he and o’Toole are stupidly banging the ‘Trudeau didn’t close the borders fast enough’ idiocy even though it seems, most people with a few more neurons firing simultaneously can figure out Doug Ford really blew it by waiting too long, effectively making it all worse, and having to impose stricter and longer lockdowns as a result. But there are still a number of people who can’t seem to read basic math and will insist it’s all because of travelers. Incredibly, the lockdown has begun to bring the numbers down.

So the only ones drinking Kool-aid, well ha. Proofs in the pudding as they say.


----------



## Macfury

Kenney is not a conservative. He is a Conservative.



Freddie_Biff said:


> This headline has to make conservatives squirm a bit; Kenney is now less popular than Trudeau....in Alberta!!


----------



## groovetube

I doubt anyone really cares that much about that distinction, Kenny is a lying snake and a lot of people clearly already knew. What is it with conservatives and their preoccupation with who is, and isn’t a ‘real conservative’?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

eMacMan said:


> Interesting that you would post a bad link.
> 
> As to Kenney, he has gone 100s of miles out of his way to piss off his base, so yeah most Albertans are pissed off with him. OTOH I am sure the Kool-aid Klatch has to love all the restrictions, but then they are only about 7% of the population. Course he does allow a Food Truck Fair in Grimshaws home town and no problems whatsoever if you claim to be part of the Burn-Loot-Murder bunch. It's just those nasty freedom types that have to be stomped on.
> 
> Anyways we saw about 8500 deaths during the first wave. Add in masking and the second wave was around 13,000 deaths nation wide, pretty obvious masks did nothing to save lives. So why not add in even nastier lockdowns? Maybe that will help push the third wave over 20,000.


Bad link? Worked just now again when I tried it. Maybe it’s your device.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Bad link? Worked just now again when I tried it. Maybe it’s your device.


The link worked just fine. Are we now going to pivot from the absolute disastrous incompetence of Jason Kenny to, if he's a real conservative or not? You can almost set your watch to it.

I wonder what sort of conservative Doug Ford is.


----------



## eMacMan

Jason Kenney, Doug Ford and the Truedope are all globalist puppets. There is a reason that I call Conservatives Conmen, and Truedopers Liebarrels. They don't give a damn about Canada or Canadians, their loyalties are only to the Rothchilds, Rockefellers, Gates, Soros... and their agenda of eugenics.

All sorts of strings to control them, bribery, blackmail, threats to their families safety....


----------



## groovetube

I hadda ask…


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> I hadda ask…


You’re not going to get anywhere with this lot. When one of their own, like Kenney or Ford, f’s up, they get disowned and somehow linked with Trudeau. But they are Conservatives through and through and waste money just like any other conservative.


----------



## groovetube

Watching the republicans south just fire more shots into their own leg continually is incredible. The same thing, they’re all about to throw Liz Cheney totally under the bus, and the howls that she’s not the right kind of conservative is priceless. Do they not have ANY shred of shame?

I have noticed that Trump supporters on facebook are uncharacteristically quiet. It’s becoming a tougher sell this whole massive gaslight campaign is. There’s still some feeble howls about ‘socialism!’ But even that’s starting to wane a little. I don’t imagine anyone who was taken by the election fraud lie is going to readily admit to that any time soon. Oops a little (related) American politic here. I’m sure I’ll be summarily shot for it soon enough.

But it's very related to this whole who's a real conservative' silliness.


----------



## Macfury

You've done your best Freddie... it's no use!



Freddie_Biff said:


> You’re not going to get anywhere with this lot. When one of their own, like Kenney or Ford, f’s up, they get disowned and somehow linked with Trudeau. But they are Conservatives through and through and waste money just like any other conservative.


----------



## groovetube

I don’t think anyone’s ‘doing done’ much of anything around here.


----------



## FUXL

Where did Hairy Ath go?


----------



## Macfury

I think only Laurentian elites may understand that puzzle gag.


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> I think only Laurentian elites may understand that puzzle gag.


How about this one. Created by an Albertan.


----------



## Macfury

I guess the smallest dick is yours, FUXL...


----------



## groovetube

Yuk yuk


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> I guess the smallest dick is yours, FUXL...


You zoomed in. Didn't you? Pervert.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> You zoomed in. Didn't you? Pervert.


Bwahahahahahaha!!


----------



## Macfury

I'm imagining anybody wanting to identify that little fellow would _have_ to zoom in.



FUXL said:


> You zoomed in. Didn't you? Pervert.


----------



## groovetube

So he did…. Ha ha ha ha ha


----------



## FUXL

Who's zoomin' who?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

FUXL said:


> Who's zoomin' who?


I see what you did there.


----------



## FUXL

It's official XL goes the way of the Edsel. $1.3B down Alberta's drain.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/06/09/keystone-pipeline-dead/


----------



## Macfury

Keep shipping that oil in by tanker from Saudie Arabia! Victory is ours!


----------



## groovetube

Theres no evidence the XL keystone would have have changed that.


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> Keep shipping that oil in by tanker from Saudie Arabia! Victory is ours!


Well the phallic magnifying member should know that the majority of oil consumed in my neck of the woods is a refined version of Alberta crude. Quebec's consumption is majority Albertan too. It's been that way for several years. So stuff your Saudi insinuation.


----------



## Macfury

Overseas oil shipments are a global problem, not just Canadian. Without the pipeline helping to supply America, our oceans will suffer. Thanks for that!


----------



## groovetube

FUXL said:


> Well the phallic magnifying member….


BAH ha ha ha ha


----------



## FUXL

Coyne takes aim at dour conservatives. This is from behind the Globe's paywall.

*More than leadership or policy, it’s the Conservative temperament that’s putting off voters*
Andrew CoynePublished 2 hours ago








Conservative Leader Erin O'Toole attends a Stampede pancake breakfast in Calgary on July 10, 2021.
Jeff McIntosh/The Canadian Press
The official line in Conservative circles is: Don’t panic. Campaigns matter, a week is a long time in politics, remember what happened to David Peterson, etc.

The unofficial line is: Panic. It isn’t just that the Liberals hold a substantial lead in public opinion (six recent polls put them between eight and 14 points ahead). It’s that the Tories have very little room to grow.

A new Abacus Data poll finds just 41 per cent of voters would even consider voting Conservative. That’s well behind the Liberals (56 per cent) of course, but it’s also behind the NDP (48 per cent). It’s barely ahead of the Greens (33 per cent).

How did it come to this, that the party of Confederation could have fallen into such odium that six in ten voters will not even consider voting for it?

Erin O’Toole needs to show he is a leader who can lead

The tendency will be to blame the leader, and certainly Erin O’Toole’s approval numbers must be dismaying to Conservative supporters. Just 14 per cent of respondents in the latest Nanos poll picked him as their preferred prime minister, versus 37 per cent for Justin Trudeau – and 18 per cent for Jagmeet Singh.

But the Conservatives’ woes did not begin with Mr. O’Toole’s leadership, and they will not end there. In six elections under the unified Conservative banner, the party has averaged just short of 35 per cent of the vote – four percentage points less, on average, than the old Progressive Conservative and Reform/Canadian Alliance parties used to get, between them, in the years when the movement was divided.

Of course, the Grits have fared even worse over the same period, averaging just 31 per cent of the vote since 2004. But Liberal weakness masks a more enduring strength: while the party has lost some support to the NDP, the Greens and the Bloc, it has a much bigger pool of progressive voters to fish from. With the right leader, it can still aspire to power. Whereas it’s not clear even a strong leader could save the Tories.

Some of that is explicable in terms of policy. On many of the most important issues of the day, Conservatives have either had nothing to say (hello, climate change) or have actively antagonized voters they might otherwise have reached (race, immigration, marriage equality).

More broadly, the party seems to have lost its nerve, unable even to advance traditional conservative policies – free markets, lower taxes, balanced budgets – with any vigour. The left has been right about more things than the right in recent years, but right or wrong it has been demonstrably more confident.

More confident and … more cheerful. Beyond leadership or policy, the Conservative malaise seems even more to do with what I might call the party’s temperament: not just its image but its persona, the deeper qualities of disposition that are revealing of character. Something in the Conservative temperament has simply become repellent to a great many people.

If the besetting sin of Liberals is smarmy sanctimoniousness, the Conservative equivalent is a chippy defensiveness, an adolescent petulance, a conviction that the cards are perpetually stacked against them. Fair enough, up to a point: decades of what the late Richard Gwyn called “one-and-a-half party rule” have left their inevitable residue – a bureaucracy, a judiciary and a press gallery that are inclined to see the world, if not through Liberal glasses, then certainly through liberal ones.

Far worse, however, has been its toll on the Conservative psyche. The same fundamental insecurity that, in a Joe Clark or a Bob Stanfield, emerged as a kind of apologetic cough of deference to liberal elites, is also at work in today’s smirking Conservative populist. Though Canadian Conservatives have not gone so far down that road as their counterparts elsewhere – there is nothing to compare to the Republicans’ current mix of white nationalism, LOL-nothing-matters nihilism, and lunatic, QAnon-inspired conspiracy theories – they are too willing to nod in that direction.

Moreover, while the Liberals, as the party of power and therefore of cabinet posts, have always been able to recruit individuals with a record of accomplishment in other fields, the Conservatives tend to get stuck with the lifers, people who have never done anything but partisan politics and are motivated by nothing so much as hatred of the Grits. Which may explain why the party’s leading lights so often look and sound like campus Conservatives.

In sports it is often observed that a team might have the best players or the best strategy, but if it does not have a winning culture, that elusive gel of belief in itself, it is still doomed to defeat. Until the Conservatives develop that culture – until they acquire some self-respect, put a smile on their face, and act like grown-ups – they will be condemned to the same.


----------



## Macfury

Andrew Coyne hasn't been a representative of Canadian conservatism for a decade at least.


----------



## FUXL

The micro gazing member has a point. No Coyne is not representative of Western Canadian reformism


----------



## Freddie_Biff

No matter who Andrew Coyne voted for, this takedown of conservatives in Canada is pretty accurate.


----------



## Macfury

Coyne is bitter about having almost no influence in conservative circles. It isn't remotely accurate.



Freddie_Biff said:


> No matter who Andrew Coyne voted for, this takedown of conservatives in Canada is pretty accurate.


----------



## FeXL

Shocka...

*And it makes you smarter...

*


> Drug-impaired driving up 43% since Parliament legalized #marijuana says
> @StatCan_eng
> data;


----------



## FeXL

Too polite by half...

*WATCH: Dave Rubin SLAMS Justin Trudeau as an 'absolutely ridiculous clown of a Prime Minister'*



> In a recent episode of _Cancel This_ with Angelo Isidorou, guest Dave Rubin slammed Justin Trudeau for being an "absolutely ridiculous clown of a Prime Minister."
> "But it might be that you guys are actually sort of the sun is setting on what a truly free Canada looks like. That's what it seems like to me," Rubin, host of the Rubin Report, pointed out.
> He goes on to call Trudeau's pandering the "worst sort of virtue signaling."




More:



> He is just a fake...


C'mon, Dave! He's a substitute drama teacher, fer goshsakes! Dropped out of two, count 'em, _two_ grad programs! And, _and_, he's a gen-u-wine snowboard instructor!

Let's not forget his nice _har_, either!

What more does a post-modern country require for a leader?


----------



## FeXL

Nails it.

*Only 400?*



> Sometimes it feels like Quebec invented the “woke” movement.
> Mary Simon’s lack of French prompts investigation after 400 complaints: watchdog




BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  I jes' luvs when the left eats its own...

From the comments:



> Ha! Racist “settlers” demanding that a Turtle Islander speak a non-TI language….


Yeppers.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Too polite by half...
> 
> *WATCH: Dave Rubin SLAMS Justin Trudeau as an 'absolutely ridiculous clown of a Prime Minister'*
> More:
> 
> C'mon, Dave! He's a substitute drama teacher, fer goshsakes! Dropped out of two, count 'em, _two_ grad programs! And, _and_, he's a gen-u-wine snowboard instructor!
> 
> Let's not forget his nice _har_, either!
> 
> What more does a post-modern country require for a leader?


Since all the TrueDope does is march to the drum of his globalist masters, his qualifications are irrelevant. All he has to do is advance the cause of suppressing human rights.


----------



## FeXL

Good! I can hardly wait 'til they start shutting down a few lefty blogs. Maybe then the Progs will get it...

*The Mounties always get their Blog*



> Blacklocks
> 
> 
> 
> A federal censorship bill will be useful in prosecuting bloggers and Facebook subscribers, an RCMP specialist said last night. Bill C-36 will “see more things through to charges,” a webinar was told: *“There is no such thing as free speech in Canada, only freedom of expression.”*
> We can lay lotsa charges with #C36 censorship bill, say @RCMPGRC police; bloggers & tweeters face $70K fines or house arrest for offensive words.
Click to expand...



Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

Shocka...

*Growing Indigenous support for pipelines, oil sector, says report* 




> Considering how the issue is being debated in Canada, you’d think Indigenous Canadians are unanimously opposed to pipelines and the development of our oil and natural gas resources.
> 
> In reality, as a new study by the Fraser Institute released Tuesday, _First Nations and the Petroleum Industry — From Conflict to Cooperation,_ makes clear, nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## FeXL

Conflict of interest? What conflict of interest?

*CBC didn’t disclose pundit’s $16,950 contract with the Trudeau government*



> CBC News interviewed a pundit who was paid $16,950 by the Trudeau government without disclosing the commentator’s financial ties.
> 
> According to Blacklock’s Reporter, University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe was interviewed by the public broadcaster several times throughout 2020 despite receiving the sole-sourced contract from the federal government on August 24th of that year.
> 
> CBC made no mention of Tombe’s ties to the government while he appeared to defend Ottawa’s pandemic efforts. Tombe was only referenced as an “academic” before appearing on the network.
> 
> During his segments, Tombe claimed that “blaming Ottawa and moving inward does little good.” *He also stated that “every single Canadian benefited” from the Trudeau government’s spending initiatives.*




Bold mine.

I'd sure like to know precisely how the hell I benefitted...


----------



## FeXL

*‘̷D̷i̷s̷a̷p̷p̷o̷i̷n̷t̷e̷d̷’̷ Hypocrite Justin Trudeau dodges question about Carolyn Bennett’s future after ‘hurtful’ text to Indigenous MP*



> Justin Trudeau is standing by his embattled minister of Crown-Indigenous relations — for now — despite calls for her removal for sending a text message that some Indigenous people called “racist.”
> 
> But Trudeau stopped short of offering his full support to Carolyn Bennett at a news conference Friday, saying he was “deeply disappointed” in her for sending a “hurtful” message to Indigenous MP Jody Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> *Asked whether Bennett should keep her role in his cabinet, the prime minister did not give a **direct answer.*




Bold mine.

'Course not! That would require him to find his testicles. Or his spine. Either way...


----------



## FeXL

*The CRTC “Will Be Picking Winners and Losers”: A Report on Day Two of the Senate Bill C-10 Debate*



> In a day that started with Canadian Heritage Minister Steven Guilbeault urging the Senate to focus on passing Bill C-10, Senators from across the political spectrum again signalled that they believe that Guilbeault’s bill requires extensive hearings given the flawed legislative approach in the House of Commons and a resulting bill that raises a wide range of policy concerns. Concerns with Bill C-10 were raised by virtually every Senator to speak during yesterday’s debate: Senator Donna Dasko noted that “public confidence is lacking at this point in time” in the bill, Senator Colin Deacon argued that the government has failed to address the core concerns involving privacy and competition, and Senator Pamela Wallin called the bill “reckless” and urged the government “to go back to the drawing board.” Those speeches came on top of the first day of Senate debate in which Senator Dennis Dawson admitted that “everybody recognizes the bill is flawed” and Senator Paula Simons said the bill reminded her of the Maginot Line.


Related:

No argument.

*The Senate Bill C-10 Debate Concludes: “I Don’t Think This Bill Needs Amendments. It Needs a Stake Through the Heart.”*



> The Senate Bill C-10 debate wrapped up yesterday with several speeches and a vote to send the bill to committee for further study. Given that the Senate declined to approve summer hearings for the bill, the earliest possible time for the study to begin is the week of September 20th. If there is a late summer/early fall election as most observers expect, Bill C-10 will die. Without an election, Bill C-10 will be back for Senate hearings in the fall with many Senators emphasizing the need for a comprehensive study that features the myriad of perspectives that were excluded from the failed House review.


----------



## FeXL

Nice!

*Trudeau Sues His Own MP To Suppress Chinese Scientist Firing Details*



> *Liberal MP Anthony Rota* _“intends to ask the federal court to strike down the *Trudeau government’s* attempt to have a judge block parliamentarians from receiving documents regarding the *firing of two scientists at Canada’s top laboratory.”*_
> 
> According to the *National Post, Speaker of the House Anthony Rota* stated that he would fight _“tooth and nail”_ to protect the principle _“that the legal system does not have *jurisdiction over the operations of the House.”*_
> 
> *Rota’s* letter came in response to a *Liberal government* lawsuit asking the *federal court to prohibit the disclosure *of documents demanded from the *Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC).*




Links' emphasis.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Life in Alberta



> Barbara Larochelle
> @BarbLarochelle
> ·
> Jul 13
> UCP: Hey, big companies, we’re going to cut your taxes!!
> 
> Companies: Great!
> 
> UCP: Please like us.
> 
> Companies: Whatever.
> 
> UCP: Because we told people this will create jobs.
> 
> Companies: Yeah, well we have some other things we need to do with the money first. Rough year.
> 1/5
> 24
> 393
> 1K
> 
> Barbara Larochelle
> @BarbLarochelle
> ·
> Jul 13
> UCP: Oh, for sure, for sure. Um…and then could you create some jobs?
> 
> Companies: We don’t know. Covid, oil prices, all the excuses.
> 
> UCP: Well, how about if we cut your taxes EVEN MORE?
> 
> Companies: That would be great.
> 
> UCP: So, about those jobs? 2/5
> 2
> 37
> 290
> 
> Barbara Larochelle
> @BarbLarochelle
> ·
> Jul 13
> Companies: Look, we need to buy back stocks, pay shareholders and also update our production methods first.
> 
> UCP: Production methods?
> 
> Companies: Yeah—automation. It’s the 21st century.
> 
> UCP: Oh right. We forgot. So the automation will create jobs, yeah?
> 
> Companies: Uh…no. 3/5
> 1
> 33
> 283
> 
> Barbara Larochelle
> @BarbLarochelle
> ·
> Jul 13
> UCP: No?
> 
> Companies: Um…the _point_ of automation is to increase profit because we need _fewer_ people to work for us.
> 
> UCP: But we cut your taxes. So, could you just hire some people?
> 
> Companies: To do what? A tax cut doesn’t mean there is more work to do. 4/5
> 2
> 37
> 294
> 
> Barbara Larochelle
> @BarbLarochelle
> ·
> Jul 13
> UCP: We STRONGLY urge you to create jobs.
> 
> Companies:
> 
> UCP: Okay, we’re begging you. Please, please create some jobs?
> 
> Companies: We’ll get back to you. 5/5k


----------



## groovetube

Federal election coming this Sunday!

Bets on O’Toole?


----------



## groovetube

No one is gonna bet on O’Toole!

awwww.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

O’Toole is a tool.h He might find support in Alberta, but I wouldn’t count on the rest of the country.


----------



## groovetube

And then there’s Maxine bernier. I think that’s where the real lunatics are headed at the moment.

as long as they keep thinking the conservatives need to be further right and split the vote.

goooooooooood. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! I can feeeeeel your ANGEEEEEEERRRRRRR!!!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> And then there’s Maxine bernier. I think that’s where the real lunatics are headed at the moment.
> 
> as long as they keep thinking the conservatives need to be further right and split the vote.
> 
> goooooooooood. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! I can feeeeeel your ANGEEEEEEERRRRRRR!!!!


Yay! More parties on the right! Canadians want choice! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

I know what the conservatives problem is! They aren’t ‘conservative’ enough!! They need to be much further right! That’s how they’ll gain power in Canada!! Screw this pandering to the mushy center!!


----------



## TiltAgain

I have registered for mail-in voting (am not sure if I will receive everything in time and be able to complete all formalities in time to vote though).

My problem is that, having been away for almost 8 years now, I am no longer in the know of the current political scenario and whom to vote for.

I did go through the list of "promises" of each party in McLeans magazine (though it is not complete yet) but still do not know enough to make an informed decision.

With such ignorance I am concerned that my vote would be squandered.

Cheers


----------



## Freddie_Biff

TiltAgain said:


> I have registered for mail-in voting (am not sure if I will receive everything in time and be able to complete all formalities in time to vote though).
> 
> My problem is that, having been away for almost 8 years now, I am no longer in the know of the current political scenario and whom to vote for.
> 
> I did go through the list of "promises" of each party in McLeans magazine (though it is not complete yet) but still do not know enough to make an informed decision.
> 
> With such ignorance I am concerned that my vote would be squandered.
> 
> Cheers


Sounds like you’re actually more informed than the average Canadian voter! LOL


----------



## pm-r

TiltAgain said:


> My problem is that, having been away for almost 8 years now, I am no longer in the know of the current political scenario and whom to vote for.


Are you actually qualified to vote in the Canadian federal election???









A Guide to Voting in the Canadian Federal Election


If you are a Canadian citizen you can choose who represents you in federal politics. During a federal election, you can elect your local Member of Parliament (MP) and your vote helps choose the Prime Minister.




settlement.org





- Patrick
=======


----------



## groovetube

Canadians living abroad can vote by mail. Used to be a 5 year limit (which was ridiculous) and they did away with the limit.


----------



## groovetube

Un-freaking-believable. If anyone whines that the liberals are ‘entitled’, just laugh.

once again, the conservatives redefine what they accuse the other of. What an incredible scam. There are reports of seniors wondering if they need to ‘pay this invoice’. What are the chances they’ll return the monies from this now that they’ve been caught?









Ontario PCs under fire after sending out fake invoices in attempt to secure donations


Some Ontario residents have received mail correspondence asking them to donate to the PC’s election campaign, however, the letters have been designed to appear as invoices.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## TiltAgain

pm-r said:


> Are you actually qualified to vote in the Canadian federal election???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Guide to Voting in the Canadian Federal Election
> 
> 
> If you are a Canadian citizen you can choose who represents you in federal politics. During a federal election, you can elect your local Member of Parliament (MP) and your vote helps choose the Prime Minister.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> settlement.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


I am a citizen of Canada, but I am not sure I am still eligible. I have put in the application; and was notified that if I am found eligible, I would be mailed the ballot forms. So, let's wait and see 



Freddie_Biff said:


> Sounds like you’re actually more informed than the average Canadian voter! LOL


Heheheheheh I wish that were true.

Cheers


----------



## pm-r

TiltAgain said:


> I am a citizen of Canada, but I am not sure I am still eligible.


From what I read, once a Canadian citizen always a Canadian citizen, unless of course it has been revoked, or maybe if one has been a very very naughty person doing very nasty and illegal things maybe. But then that would put some politicians right on the bleeding edge... 😏






Is it Possible to Lose Citizenship? - Canadian Citizenship


You cannot currently lose your Canadian Citizenship without renouncing it or having it revoked. That means that you cannot lose your Canadian citizenship by




canadian-citizenship.ca










Revocation of citizenship - Canada.ca


Revocation of citizenship




www.canada.ca






- Patrick
=======


----------



## groovetube

Indeed, though not sure aligning oneself with 'illegal and nasty' politicians works out very well.










Just as an addition, because I don't want to spoil the Shang and respect the wishes of long time participants, that thread isn't the place for baited political comments. It isn't my rules, so it's not "groovetube", but I respect them. So, I would appreciate if you wish to squabble a bit to not do it in that thread out of respect for the others that wish to keep things peaceful. That was the reason for my response there.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Amen, brothers. And sisters, if there are still any around.


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau defends Liberal campaign video flagged by Twitter as 'manipulated media'


Liberal leader Justin Trudeau is defending a video posted to Twitter by Liberal candidate Chrystia Freeland that was flagged by the social network as 'manipulated media.'



www.ctvnews.ca





Well that can’t be right. I thought Twitter was the bastion of the left and only squelched conservative “truth”.


----------



## MacDoc

I filled out my request for mail in vote today as well.


----------



## groovetube

MAybe one of the enterprising politicians can start a “stop the steal” campaign and bilk numbskulls of their money for their own personal expenses slush fund as well.


----------



## groovetube

what's everyone's predictions?

Here's mine. O'Toole wins a minority. **** goes badly through the fall/winter. Economy falters, The O'Toole minority falls, and Trudeau swings in and takes a majority. O'Toole goes the way of Joe Clark.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> MAybe one of the enterprising politicians can start a “stop the steal” campaign and bilk numbskulls of their money for their own personal expenses slush fund as well.


Grifters gonna grift.


----------



## Rps

Someone much more clever than I wrote this......I thought I’d share....


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Rps said:


> Someone much more clever than I wrote this......I thought I’d share....
> 
> View attachment 94092


Now there’s something to consider. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## groovetube

The trouble is, too many people are confused between fact, and opinion. Even worse now, they’ve been told that the media is the enemy, so they then go looking for even less credible sources of opinion, with zero journalistic integrity whatsoever, and this is what is the most popular shared thing on social media.

And we wonder why people are so gullible to just pure nonsense.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Someone much more clever than I wrote this......I thought I’d share....


Agreed. And yet we still see people posting from media sources as though they are authoritative.


----------



## groovetube

Well it didn’t take long for the troll to show up and get a dig in to derail anything.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Someone much more clever than I wrote this......I thought I’d share....
> 
> View attachment 94092


Further to my earlier post before troll man showed up.

People consuming media sources without the basic ability to discern the difference between fact and opinion, leads to people looking for opinions media sources generate from facts, that align with their beliefs. Often headlines, are designed as clickbait, and people often dont take the time to check the sources of information and the facts, and drill through whatever bias or opinion the media source is pushing.

Let's take an example of one of macfury's posts. Since he decided to be a dick and push a troll post, let's use him. Not long ago, he posted a CTV article with a headline that declared that Canada was way behind in vaccinations, and wouldn't reach even 20% vaccinated until mid October. That was the headline. So, given we can assume he hates Trudeau (safe assumption  ) he posted the article with a short comment of "Oh Canada". But if one actually took the time to read the article, one would find out that the article actually admitted, it was basing it's projection on numbers previous, and didn't take into account the known fact, that Canada was about to receive a very significant number of vaccines going forward. Which made their headline projection, pretty much pure nonsense, clickbait, which it appeared macfury fell for. But posting the article, others might see it, perhaps others who also dislike Trudeau, who will also share it, grunt their approval. But then those that see the article for what it is, point out the obvious, and a scrap ensues. Which makes what you posted pretty accurate. Let's be fair, it happens on both sides.

Though some do this on purpose, purely to derail any chat that they may really dislike and goes against their views. The same poster has now decided to continually repeat the nonsense that it's the vaccinated that are generating variants, despite the obvious, the current variants have all been generated before vaccinations, but like the "donkey" in your piece, it serves a purpose. And I can tell you, that purpose isnt to generate anything reasonable chat between adults who trying to sort things out and discuss it. That much is obvious. And let me point out, this isn’t ‘media’, certainly not the media we’re being told is the enemy. At best it’s from dodgy sources. So he has progressed much like the other one in not needing any sources, certainly no facts, just openly declaring inflammatory nonsense with the purpose that is little more than what your piece describes. But at least it’s not from the ‘media’!

It's kinda too bad, because if a handful of adults can put aside whatever political bias they may have, and try to focus on actual facts, well, at least a decent try anyway, perhaps something may come of it that's a lot more pleasant than what has been happening here for years even before I showed up!


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> Further to my earlier post before troll man showed up.
> 
> People consuming media sources without the basic ability to discern the difference between fact and opinion, leads to people looking for opinions media sources generate from facts, that align with their beliefs. Often headlines, are designed as clickbait, and people often dont take the time to check the sources of information and the facts, and drill through whatever bias or opinion the media source is pushing.
> 
> Let's take an example of one of macfury's posts. Since he decided to be a dick and push a troll post, let's use him. Not long ago, he posted a CTV article with a headline that declared that Canada was way behind in vaccinations, and wouldn't reach even 20% vaccinated until mid October. That was the headline. So, given we can assume he hates Trudeau (safe assumption  ) he posted the article with a short comment of "Oh Canada". But if one actually took the time to read the article, one would find out that the article actually admitted, it was basing it's projection on numbers previous, and didn't take into account the known fact, that Canada was about to receive a very significant number of vaccines going forward. Which made their headline projection, pretty much pure nonsense, clickbait, which it appeared macfury fell for. But posting the article, others might see it, perhaps others who also dislike Trudeau, who will also share it, grunt their approval. But then those that see the article for what it is, point out the obvious, and a scrap ensues. Which makes what you posted pretty accurate. Let's be fair, it happens on both sides.
> 
> Though some do this on purpose, purely to derail any chat that they may really dislike and goes against their views. The same poster has now decided to continually repeat the nonsense that it's the vaccinated that are generating variants, despite the obvious, the current variants have all been generated before vaccinations, but like the "donkey" in your piece, it serves a purpose. And I can tell you, that purpose isnt to generate anything reasonable chat between adults who trying to sort things out and discuss it. That much is obvious. And let me point out, this isn’t ‘media’, certainly not the media we’re being told is the enemy. At best it’s from dodgy sources. So he has progressed much like the other one in not needing any sources, certainly no facts, just openly declaring inflammatory nonsense with the purpose that is little more than what your piece describes. But at least it’s not from the ‘media’!
> 
> It's kinda too bad, because if a handful of adults can put aside whatever political bias they may have, and try to focus on actual facts, well, at least a decent try anyway, perhaps something may come of it that's a lot more pleasant than what has been happening here for years even before I showed up!


I agree with some of your comment….there are subissues to the subissues here that I do t wish to touch on as opening a can of worms is not something I like to do. But….an underlying cause, in my opinion, is that news has become entertainment and Ted Turner could well have been the architect of the fall of democracy……then…..comes social media….both are the hallmarks of confirmation bias…..while some outlets are easy to spot as click bait merchants….others are not so much……they are subtle now……you reading this CBC….


----------



## groovetube

I think I understand what you’re somewhat saying. And yeah. I think that is possibly what I was trying to say, probably n a clumsy way, it certainly is nuanced and has many layers to all this. It is hard to defend many of the cable news type things, but it seems like the solution these days is far worse. Perhaps it’s the natural reaction to Ted Turner’s monster.

I will say though, there is a real irony in seeing the politicians that slam media the most, seem to not only be masters at manipulating it, but doing so to their benefit.

Facebook is, by far the worst. I deactivated that for a while, the noise especially during this election has become just deafening. There isnt much worth listening to right now.


----------



## Rps

I thought I’d share with you some thoughts I have on who to vote for. When my children were old enough to vote I discussed these points with them. I didn’t care who they voted for, as voting, to me, was the most important....but in youth, and old age it seems, one needs to have a rationale other than just party lines as the basis for your vote. 

No matter which party you support, or which candidate for that matter...here are some considerations you should think about before casting your vote. These are equally important if viewed from a personal lens or a national one.

1. Affordability...how does their policy impact me personally and that of the country. How does this effect the bottom line and can I afford it?

2. Health and the environment. Will their policies impact me directly and if so is it to my benefit or will I loose?

3. Security. Will their policies and beliefs impact our security both personal and national?

4. Responsible government...are they, have they, will they?

5. National identity....does the government reflect my views and that of my neighbours...do they represent what I think our national identity is?

6. Moral Compass...does this person or party act or react in a way that reflects my moral and ethical beliefs? Upon examination who needs to change?

7. Is this person or government the type of person or government that you would feel proud about going to work for?

8. Do our allies respect our leader....if so why? If not why? And is this important to you?
These are important questions to ask when you think about who to vote for.....


----------



## groovetube

I think that’s a decent list RP. Though the one issue I’d have is it can easily be used by either party to push a whole lot of rhetoric.

for instance. Affordability. Affordability, for whom? This is rarely discussed, certainly not in a constructive way. Often we tend hear things like tax cuts, respect for our money, and things like balancing the budget, but let’s be fair here, neither of the two parties have a better track record than the other. It becomes a question or priorities. A shifting of the wealth let’s say. The old saying, ‘the rich gets richer’ applies here. It just becomes frustrating to discuss things like minimum wage, because the usual is a barrage of unsubstantiated nonsense turns the whole thing upside down and no one really changes their mind, while large numbers of people suffer. As an example, back when Wynne raised the minimum wage to 14, I had come out in favor of it, but, I had also said, I would prefer a more regular gradual raise rather than large last minute hikes, but this nuance was lost on a number of people who attacked me loudly and literally screamed in all caps that the inflation rate would skyrocket! Well, it didn’t. But the debate became framed as, I’m in favor of unfettered handing of undeserved monies to the lazy hoardes who really should pull up their bootstraps and help themselves with night school, while they with some unknown economic wizardry were right. Solved nothing really.

Security is another. This often devolves into a fight about things like immigration. It’s a great wedge tool for parties, and it works very well. The trouble is, there’s often very little truth to any of their claims at all. But it works spectacularly well!

Health and environment. I do tend to take this as one of the more important things to consider when looking at parties and who I’m voting for. I try to look at past track records, funding for these not just for certain groups but the entire population as a whole, as I believe a healthier population especially the large working class, makes for a better prosperous country than platitudes and policies driven by lobbyists looking for a piece of the pie.

I have tended to vote for the NDP in general as I have felt that the liberals have failed to live up to their promises, and the conservatives, have an even worse track record on most of these items. Currently the conservatives are pushing themselves as the best choice to get the economy going, but I have not forgotten how Harper promised the same, only to give huge tax breaks to corporations touting job growth that failed to materialize, telling the rest of us we had to wait while he slashed the budget brutally to try and balance it, which even that he ultimately failed to do as well. And having seen O’Toole before, I don’t trust his new found ‘centrism’ to appear less scary. Just my thoughts as well.


----------



## groovetube

And to add… who is better respected on the world stage amongst our allies. I think this is somewhat important. But the trouble with this, is this is yet another wedge that tends to get used as well. We’ll hear about how Trudeau is a joke on the world stage but this is absurd. I don’t think Trudeau is any less respected than say Harper was. To me they are more or less, likely about the same. O’Toole, possible similar, just making an assumption.


----------



## Rps

Groove, I have a list I made called the Rules of Government...I have used this to explain party actions and policies to my children....maybe you might find them interesting as they, I think, answer a lot of your concerns about parties.


----------



## groovetube

The rules of government. Interesting. I’m willing to bet very few have high marks on this!


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> The rules of government. Interesting. I’m willing to bet very few have high marks on this!


Groove here are my Rules of Government....and yes they are debatable but what isn’t these days.

Rule 1. The purpose of government is to maintain being elected and not governing.

Rule 2. The greatest sin is not getting caught...but embarrassing the leader.

Rule 3. Government legislation invariably hurts those it is designed to protect.

Rule 4. The more complex the issue, the simpler the real solution.

Rule 5. There is an inverse relationship in the government’s explanation of an issue. The more complex the reply the simpler the answer ...the more simple the reply the more complex the answer.

Rule 6. Everything in politics is done for a reason...the trick is finding out what the real reason is.

Rule 7. It’s never the leader’s fault until it is.

Rule 8. In all things follow the money....

Rule 9. If any issue will negatively impact Rule 1, do nothing until the private sector or another level of government develops the solution...then implement it as your idea.

Rule 10 ...Yes I know I said it prior...but in all things follow the money.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Groove here are my Rules of Government....and yes they are debatable but what isn’t these days.
> 
> Rule 1. The purpose of government is to maintain being elected and not governing.
> 
> Rule 2. The greatest sin is not getting caught...but embarrassing the leader.
> 
> Rule 3. Government legislation invariably hurts those it is designed to protect.
> 
> Rule 4. The more complex the issue, the simpler the real solution.
> 
> Rule 5. There is an inverse relationship in the government’s explanation of an issue. The more complex the reply the simpler the answer ...the more simple the reply the more complex the answer.
> 
> Rule 6. Everything in politics is done for a reason...the trick is finding out what the real reason is.
> 
> Rule 7. It’s never the leader’s fault until it is.
> 
> Rule 8. In all things follow the money....
> 
> Rule 9. If any issue will negatively impact Rule 1, do nothing until the private sector or another level of government develops the solution...then implement it as your idea.
> 
> Rule 10 ...Yes I know I said it prior...but in all things follow the money.


Ha! Brilliant.


----------



## TiltAgain

Rps said:


> I thought I’d share with you some thoughts I have on who to vote for. When my children were old enough to vote I discussed these points with them. I didn’t care who they voted for, as voting, to me, was the most important....but in youth, and old age it seems, one needs to have a rationale other than just party lines as the basis for your vote.
> 
> No matter which party you support, or which candidate for that matter...here are some considerations you should think about before casting your vote. These are equally important if viewed from a personal lens or a national one.
> 
> 1. Affordability...how does their policy impact me personally and that of the country. How does this effect the bottom line and can I afford it?
> 
> 2. Health and the environment. Will their policies impact me directly and if so is it to my benefit or will I loose?
> 
> 3. Security. Will their policies and beliefs impact our security both personal and national?
> 
> 4. Responsible government...are they, have they, will they?
> 
> 5. National identity....does the government reflect my views and that of my neighbours...do they represent what I think our national identity is?
> 
> 6. Moral Compass...does this person or party act or react in a way that reflects my moral and ethical beliefs? Upon examination who needs to change?
> 
> 7. Is this person or government the type of person or government that you would feel proud about going to work for?
> 
> 8. Do our allies respect our leader....if so why? If not why? And is this important to you?
> These are important questions to ask when you think about who to vote for.....


That's a great set of guidelines to help decide; and if I may, I would like to add one more point:

Look at the "manifesto" of the incumbent party that they're now promising (and any other parties that may have governed in the recent past). See how much of the future manifesto they have been fulfilling while they're currently governing or when they last governed (more relevant for the incumbent).

Merely as an example - if a party promises now that they will bring genuinely affordable internet and cell-phone plans, have they genuinely done anything about it while they're currently already in power?

From a personal standpoint, having seen both Liberal and Conservative governments in my lifetime and having seen how they have governed, my only choice seems to be to provide an opportunity to the one party I have not experienced so far - NDP. 

However, the NDP candidate for my riding - when she speaks - sounds like a "valley-girl" (rising inflection at the end of every sentence) and very "woke". That by itself may not be a problem, but she does not sound like she cares about or knows much about much else; and that worries me. Also she's a first-timer politician with zero experience in anything - work or business or management or anything.



groovetube said:


> _SNIP_
> 
> I have tended to vote for the NDP in general as I have felt that the liberals have failed to live up to their promises, and the conservatives, have an even worse track record on most of these items. Currently the conservatives are pushing themselves as the best choice to get the economy going, but I have not forgotten how Harper promised the same, only to give huge tax breaks to corporations touting job growth that failed to materialize, telling the rest of us we had to wait while he slashed the budget brutally to try and balance it, which even that he ultimately failed to do as well. And having seen O’Toole before, I don’t trust his new found ‘centrism’ to appear less scary. Just my thoughts as well.


The impression (maybe completely unjustified) that I got when Harper was governing was that Canada was the 51st state of the USA and that Harper was basically a messenger and a yes-boy for GWB downstairs.

Cheers


----------



## Macfury

Hey, Tilt. I've suffered an NDP government in Ontario. It was like the entire province was having a major depression. Never again. I'd take another round of punishment from Kathleen Wynne before I'd see that happen.

The party in power makes me laugh if they play up a series of injustices they suddenly need to fight against — as if these don't already form part of their record. How much trouble would it have been for the current government to provide clean drinking water for all Indigenous communities? That was a big and easy promise that could have been delivered fairly inexpensively. The money Trudeau dumped on the Kielburger brothers alone could have put a big dent in that promise.


----------



## Rps

TiltAgain said:


> That's a great set of guidelines to help decide; and if I may, I would like to add one more point:
> 
> Look at the "manifesto" of the incumbent party that they're now promising (and any other parties that may have governed in the recent past). See how much of the future manifesto they have been fulfilling while they're currently governing or when they last governed (more relevant for the incumbent).
> 
> Merely as an example - if a party promises now that they will bring genuinely affordable internet and cell-phone plans, have they genuinely done anything about it while they're currently already in power?
> 
> From a personal standpoint, having seen both Liberal and Conservative governments in my lifetime and having seen how they have governed, my only choice seems to be to provide an opportunity to the one party I have not experienced so far - NDP.
> 
> However, the NDP candidate for my riding - when she speaks - sounds like a "valley-girl" (rising inflection at the end of every sentence) and very "woke". That by itself may not be a problem, but she does not sound like she cares about or knows much about much else; and that worries me. Also she's a first-timer politician with zero experience in anything - work or business or management or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> The impression (maybe completely unjustified) that I got when Harper was governing was that Canada was the 51st state of the USA and that Harper was basically a messenger and a yes-boy for GWB downstairs.
> 
> Cheers


Hi Tilt, great point.....is the past a point to the future.......


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Hey, Tilt. I've suffered an NDP government in Ontario. It was like the entire province was having a major depression. Never again. I'd take another round of punishment from Kathleen Wynne before I'd see that happen.
> 
> The party in power makes me laugh if they play up a series of injustices they suddenly need to fight against — as if these don't already form part of their record. How much trouble would it have been for the current government to provide clean drinking water for all Indigenous communities? That was a big and easy promise that could have been delivered fairly inexpensively. The money Trudeau dumped on the Kielburger brothers alone could have put a big dent in that promise.


Hi Macfury, while clean water seems a no brainer there are some issues which are not political that prevented this.....in many of indigenous communities the ground can not take piping...that’s the short answer. My wife has done significant research on this.


----------



## groovetube

TiltAgain said:


> That's a great set of guidelines to help decide; and if I may, I would like to add one more point:
> 
> Look at the "manifesto" of the incumbent party that they're now promising (and any other parties that may have governed in the recent past). See how much of the future manifesto they have been fulfilling while they're currently governing or when they last governed (more relevant for the incumbent).
> 
> Merely as an example - if a party promises now that they will bring genuinely affordable internet and cell-phone plans, have they genuinely done anything about it while they're currently already in power?
> 
> From a personal standpoint, having seen both Liberal and Conservative governments in my lifetime and having seen how they have governed, my only choice seems to be to provide an opportunity to the one party I have not experienced so far - NDP.
> 
> However, the NDP candidate for my riding - when she speaks - sounds like a "valley-girl" (rising inflection at the end of every sentence) and very "woke". That by itself may not be a problem, but she does not sound like she cares about or knows much about much else; and that worries me. Also she's a first-timer politician with zero experience in anything - work or business or management or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> The impression (maybe completely unjustified) that I got when Harper was governing was that Canada was the 51st state of the USA and that Harper was basically a messenger and a yes-boy for GWB downstairs.
> 
> Cheers


I hear you. I’m rather tired of both liberal and conservative governments as well. I often referred to the liberals as simply the slightly less ****ty version of the conservatives. Generally you hear the same tired trotted out story of the Ontario NDP, who took power right at the start of one of the more punishing recessions that lasted throughout their time in power. we don’t tend to blame Harper for the 2009 recession but somehow the recession of the early 90s was magically all Bob Rae’s fault  But what’s forgotten also is some of the major gaffes by the conservatives who took over, such as selling the 407 that we all paid for for pennies on the dollar and costs us ridiculous amounts of money to ride on it we dare. Just for starters… cheers.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Hi Macfury, while clean water seems a no brainer there are some issues which are not political that prevented this.....in many of indigenous communities the ground can not take piping...that’s the short answer. My wife has done significant research on this.


It would also seem to me, that Trudeau’s record on this is far better than Harper’s on this, who, in his 10 years did little more than send auditors. I still think he should have finished the job, but suggesting a party with a much worse record is ridiculous in my opinion.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Hi Macfury, while clean water seems a no brainer there are some issues which are not political that prevented this.....in many of indigenous communities the ground can not take piping...that’s the short answer. My wife has done significant research on this.


In a lot of cases, clean drinking water can be provided by portable, modular treatment units, even when piping is impractical to fully serve all water needs. Like these, which handle potable water and sewage:









Decentralized Modular Sewage & Drinking Water


Modular Decentralized Water Treatment Facilities for remote camps, small communities, commercial facilties, island resorts, food & beverage.




www.newterra.com


----------



## pm-r

Rps said:


> in many of indigenous communities the ground can not take piping...that’s the short answer. My wife has done significant research on this.



Wasn't it the government itself that forced the indigenous communities to move onto those lands in the first place???

Typical bureaucratic incompetence... somehow most parties seem to be able and manage to be very good at that...


- Patrick
=======


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> In a lot of cases, clean drinking water can be provided by portable, modular treatment units, even when piping is impractical to fully serve all water needs. Like these, which handle potable water and sewage:



+1!! But they do have to pay for and keep ongoing preventive maintenance active.


- Patrick
=======


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> In a lot of cases, clean drinking water can be provided by portable, modular treatment units, even when piping is impractical to fully serve all water needs. Like these, which handle potable water and sewage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decentralized Modular Sewage & Drinking Water
> 
> 
> Modular Decentralized Water Treatment Facilities for remote camps, small communities, commercial facilties, island resorts, food & beverage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newterra.com


I wish it was that simple......also the University of Calgary developed a water purification system...which is really the size of a box for a small tv...it costs about $200 ....currently used in 3rd world but not here as far as I know.


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau climate promises interrupted by angry crowd in Ontario


An angry crowd of agitators surrounded Justin Trudeau's campaign buses and screamed profanity at the Liberal Leader during a campaign event in Cambridge, Ont., Sunday.



www.ctvnews.ca







> One of the crowd members hurled a racist slur at a Black officer in Trudeau's security detail and a misogynist insult at a female officer. Others were heard shouting death threats.












Do these hordes of drooling dimwits actually realize, they are helping Trudeau? Now, I have zero anything to back this up. But if there was an expose on how some liberal shadow money was found funding online Facebook groups outraging and whipping these fools into a frenzy wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. If you look at Trudeau's face, he's just relishing in having these numbnuts provide the most brilliant backdrop for him to campaign against.

Not sure if that'll work out for him, but it sure is a sneaky way to paint O'Toole as Trump north. They even got the follow the campaign bus thing down!


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> Trudeau climate promises interrupted by angry crowd in Ontario
> 
> 
> An angry crowd of agitators surrounded Justin Trudeau's campaign buses and screamed profanity at the Liberal Leader during a campaign event in Cambridge, Ont., Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 94099
> 
> 
> Do these hordes of drooling dimwits actually realize, they are helping Trudeau? Now, I have zero anything to back this up. But if there was an expose on how some liberal shadow money was found funding online Facebook groups outraging and whipping these fools into a frenzy wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. If you look at Trudeau's face, he's just relishing in having these numbnuts provide the most brilliant backdrop for him to campaign against.
> 
> Not sure if that'll work out for him, but it sure is a sneaky way to paint O'Toole as Trump north. They even got the follow the campaign bus thing down!


Groove, it may be too early to tell if these protests will hurt him....if the protests become the story it can go either way.....


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps, what I’m suggesting though, is the opposite. I think the liberals may be in fact, quite fine with this display. Just a hunch.


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> Perhaps, what I’m suggesting though, is the opposite. I think the liberals may be in fact, quite fine with this display. Just a hunch.


Groove, maybe...a short time will tell.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I wish it was that simple......also the University of Calgary developed a water purification system...which is really the size of a box for a small tv...it costs about $200 ....currently used in 3rd world but not here as far as I know.


It really is that simple. Water purifiers from BC company ACUVA disinfect water using low-energy UV light. Available for delivery here or around the world:









UV Disinfection | Acuva


Acuva designs and builds powerful UV disinfection products for water and surface, offering certified and validated disinfection rates.




acuvastore.com


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> It really is that simple. Water purifiers from BC company ACUVA disinfect water using low-energy UV light. Available for delivery here or around the world:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UV Disinfection | Acuva
> 
> 
> Acuva designs and builds powerful UV disinfection products for water and surface, offering certified and validated disinfection rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> acuvastore.com


It’s a little more in-depth than just using a filtering system. But most certainly agree with you we have domestically made and advanced solutions to provide clean and safe drinking water…however our governments seem to ignore domestically developed technology, much to our, and i effect, their detriment.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> It’s a little more in-depth than just using a filtering system. But most certainly agree with you we have domestically made and advanced solutions to provide clean and safe drinking water…however our governments seem to ignore domestically developed technology, much to our, and i effect, their detriment.


Can well imagine. It's good to finally see this issue up on the priority list, as it certainly wasn't in governments past. Hopefully it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and if another party wins power that it returns to forgotten completely status.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Can well imagine. It's good to finally see this issue up on the priority list, as it certainly wasn't in governments past. Hopefully it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and if another party wins power that it returns to forgotten completely status.


It would be bigger than simply creating a national holiday on September 30. Clean drinking water makes a huge difference.


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> Perhaps, what I’m suggesting though, is the opposite. I think the liberals may be in fact, quite fine with this display. Just a hunch.


I have no doubt…..


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> It would be bigger than simply creating a national holiday on September 30. Clean drinking water makes a huge difference.


Just curious, how many drinking water advisories lifted under Harper, and how many under Trudeau?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Just curious, how many drinking water advisories lifted under Harper, and how many under Trudeau?


Couldn’t tell you. I do know that it’s been a problem for many many years.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Couldn’t tell you. I do know that it’s been a problem for many many years.


I saw this sort of conversation elsewhere and similar questions were posed, I thought the responses were interesting I thought see what people thought.


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> I saw this sort of conversation elsewhere and similar questions were posed, I thought the responses were interesting I thought see what people thought.


Groove, in today’s Sun....now the article may be skewed politically, but if the numbers are correct it may answer a question or so on water.








GOLDSTEIN: Trudeau drops deadline for clean water on all reserves


Trudeau no longer gives a specific date for fulfilling his broken 2015 election promise to end boil-water advisories on Indigenous reserves.




torontosun.com


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Groove, in today’s Sun....now the article may be skewed politically, but if the numbers are correct it may answer a question or so on water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOLDSTEIN: Trudeau drops deadline for clean water on all reserves
> 
> 
> Trudeau no longer gives a specific date for fulfilling his broken 2015 election promise to end boil-water advisories on Indigenous reserves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


Right. Things tend to boil down to this very same thing. All this does, is list how many boil advisories were lifted under Trudeau, (109 apparently) and then declares that Trudeau is a failure, because he didn't lift ALL of the advisories (likely because he promised to lift all of them I presume) and the fact that he has removed the date for lifting all advisories. Further, this, is as you pointed out, from The Sun. Who's stated express purpose, (Often) is their full support of a conservative government.

But this wasn't my question. My question was, how many boil advisories were lifted under Trudeau (and his 6 years in office), and... how many under Harper in his 10 years of office. This question often goes unanswered. If we are looking at which party is better to deal with this situation, is this not, a good question to ask? If the conservatives are supposed to be ‘better’, I’d want to see some numbers.

Without question, I think Trudeau could have done far better as well. But the issue becomes mired in this partisan stuff that is currently happening. You might see a little of it here. Who has the best track record in dealing with this issue, and who has at least, a decent plan to continue solving this issue?


----------



## groovetube

Why is it, that when a conservative runs in Canada, they have to look as liberal as they can to win??

flip flop!!! This has got to sting for gun owners.


----------



## pm-r

groovetube said:


> flip flop!!! This has got to sting for gun owners.



What normal gun owner even considers owning any type of "_*assault rifle*_". They aren't even _*normal rifles*_ as far as a normal gun owner is concerned.

But most are very well designed and very adaptable and are beginning to overtake some of the old standard models, but most are fairly restricted in their actually use. 


- Patrick
=======


----------



## Macfury

pm-r said:


> What normal gun owner even considers owning any type of "_*assault rifle*_". They aren't even _*normal rifles*_ as far as a normal gun owner is concerned.
> 
> But most are very well designed and very adaptable and are beginning to overtake some of the old standard models, but most are fairly restricted in their actually use.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


There isn't even a hard definition of an "assault rifle." It sounds really scary, though.


----------



## groovetube

Why don’t you ask all the kids who were shot with one.


----------



## pm-r

groovetube said:


> Why don’t you ask all the kids who were shot with one.


I would think that they would answer that it doesn't really matter what rifle type was used as it is the bullet that does the damage after being discharged by a mentally disturbed and deranged person.


- Patrick
=======


----------



## groovetube

pm-r said:


> I would think that they would answer that it doesn't really matter what rifle type was used as it is the bullet that does the damage after being discharged by a mentally disturbed and deranged person.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


You would be right. However that wasn’t my point. You’ll find that the weapon of choice tends to be the ‘assault rifle’ such as the ar-15, you don’t tend to see them with ‘hunting rifles’. But you will hear endless stuff about how they’re the same. It’s just all noise.

the important thing, which is something the assault rifle fans can’t get around, is that the majority of Canadians aren’t interested in allowing those weapons to be proliferated here in Canada as they are in the states. Otherwise, why would Erin O’Toole suddenly publically flip flop on the issue? But then conservatives aren’t noted for doing what the majority of the population wants. Look south how they’re now moving to ban abortions in some states despite the majority not wanting that.


----------



## Macfury

pm-r said:


> I would think that they would answer that it doesn't really matter what rifle type was used as it is the bullet that does the damage after being discharged by a mentally disturbed and deranged person.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


Well said.


----------



## FeXL

pm-r said:


> I'm sorry, but was your above remark really required or helpful or constructive??? If so I failed to see the point of your remark. My apologies for that I guess.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


Take a look at the stats on the front page, re: Top Contrubutors. He's currently at 260 replies. Your observation could probably apply to 259 of them.


----------



## pm-r

FeXL said:


> Take a look at the stats on front page, re: Top Contrubutors...


OK, and thanks, but where does one find this "_front page_" and the specific specifications you mentioned??? 

I don't seem to be able to locate or see it or know exactly where to look.


- Patrick
=======


----------



## FeXL

pm-r said:


> OK, and thanks, but where does one find this "_front page_" and the specific specifications you mentioned???
> 
> I don't seem to be able to locate or see it or know exactly where to look.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


Log in & navigate to the Eveything Else home page. On the RH side of the page my browser (older Firefox) shows a column header "Everything Else, eh". Under that are "Posts & Views". Under that is "Forum Staff". Beneath that is "Top Contributors This Month". Et voila.


----------



## groovetube

FeXL said:


> Take a look at the stats on the front page, re: Top Contrubutors. He's currently at 260 replies. Your observation could probably apply to 259 of them.


Says rumple thinskin himself, who howled and stamped his feet waaaaah it's GWOOOOTUUUUBE! just get WID OF HIM AND WILL BE WELL! Well yeah, I came back after 8 years what do I see? Yeah. 

Let’s face fexl, the last 8 years here, that whining of yours is pretty rich coming from you.

So yeah, looks good on you.


----------



## groovetube

pm-r said:


> I'm sorry, but was your above remark really required or helpful or constructive??? If so I failed to see the point of your remark. My apologies for that I guess.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


I was responding to a troll Patrick. I dont think you'd like to get in between this ongoing crap that has been going on for years.


----------



## groovetube

On personal attacks, sanitizing threads, no consequences?


So, there was some pretty nasty name-calling in The Gun Control thread yesterday evening by one of the usual suspects. Is it the policy of the current administration to allow this sort of behaviour without repercussion? Namely, that you can say whatever you want and have it posted for all to...




www.ehmac.ca





remember this thread where you declared -I- was the problem? The howling and crying from you was epic.

Here's my favourite line:


FeXL said:


> Hordes? It's one individual. Eliminate that single mouthy simpleton problem and the boards return to some semblance of normality.


Oh yeah. One in infamy. Thats when you and your pals went of for the next number of years and turned this place into a ghost town! Come on just try to blame the last 8 years of cesspoolness here on me. I know you will!!!! 

Hoisted by your own petards! BAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


----------



## groovetube

Back to the topic..

I see O’Toole has also announcing a national vaccine passport as well. I love that he’s becoming more and more liberal by the day!!!!


----------



## MacDoc

More centrist rather and clever politically. He is hampered by the trogs he represents.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> More centrist rather and clever politically. He is hampered by the trogs he represents.


If elected, he will hopefully shift his policies to please "the trogs he represents," and leave failed "progressive" ideas behind.


----------



## groovetube

Yeah I hope so too, because that's how conservative governments fall every time. 

Even Harper was smart enough to know this. Its when they got cocky in the end they were turfed.

I always chuckle how the far right thinks they can get away with ramming their nonsense down the majority's throats and think they will continue to get elected.


----------



## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> More centrist rather and clever politically. He is hampered by the trogs he represents.


The knives will come out for him pretty fast if they haven't already. If he manages to unseat Trudeau which he just might, it's gonna be a rough ride for him. in more ways than one!


----------



## pm-r

FeXL said:


> Log in & navigate to the Eveything Else home page. On the RH side of the page my browser (older Firefox) shows a column header "Everything Else, eh". Under that are "Posts & Views". Under that is "Forum Staff". Beneath that is "Top Contributors This Month". Et voila.


Thanks FeXL, 
But I guess I must be restricted somehow or just blind because I certainly don't see that option, but maybe I am not following your directions properly. This is what I see in Firefox and my old Chrome, FF shot on bottom:



















Am I close to the correct page view as you described...???

It's not that important but I would like to know where this additional info is hiding. 😏


- Patrick
=======


----------



## Macfury

Patrick, try expanding the view of the page to the right. Additional infomation appears there.


----------



## FeXL

pm-r said:


> Am I close to the correct page view as you described...???
> 
> It's not that important but I would like to know where this additional info is hiding. 😏
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


Mornin'!

Yep, at the correct page. Just off to the right, as MF says. I don't see a toggle anywhere to turn it off/on and I haven't made any changes to the UI since the new format.

Frankly, you're not missing anything. Just the name of our much ballyhooed moderator and the handle of the top content-free poster for the month.


----------



## groovetube

Content free. Says rumple thin skin who treated us to what was THE most epic display of pure sissiness, creates 18 threads with no content whatsoever.

look in the mirror. Come on, whine about other peoples credibility and how your the one that decides it. Just for old times sake!


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> Patrick, try expanding the view of the page to the right. Additional infomation appears there.


Alright, I've tried scrolling and expanding to the right as far as I can go and still don't see anything.

Could you attach or send me a screenshot and maybe annotate with some sort of highlight what I should be looking for???

It's odd that I seem to remember such data showing up in the old a Mac format, but I can't see anything in Chrome or Firefox.

No big deal but just curious... And yes I am using an older MacOS— Mavericks 10.9.5 and Chrome is outdated but Firefox is current using their latest Current Extended Release 78.14.

- Patrick
=======


----------



## Macfury

This is what it looks like for me.


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> This is what it looks like for me.


Thank you Macfury, but very strange. No sign of anything to the right of my main columns using either Firefox or Google Chrome. Nada!!!

Even with the few extensions I sometimes use with Firefox disabled and my Firefox is almost pristine and updated today.

And I cannot find any option to enable anything that could make an extra column show. The same goes for Google Chrome. Safari I don't bother using as it is so crippled and no system reinstall did not help improve things to get it to work so I just don't bother with it anymore.

It seems a bit hard to believe that such a large part of a web page would be missing from two browsers, especially Firefox that is still supported and kept up to date with its enhanced version

Anyway, thanks for the screenshot. It simplifies what I was looking for that just is not there.

- Patrick
=======


----------



## Macfury

I'm using up-to-date Firefox on Mojave.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I'm using up-to-date Firefox on Mojave.


Looks the same for me on OS 10.6.8 and Firefox 48.0.2.


----------



## pm-r

@Macfury
Edit Update:
I just thought I should maybe try using Safari and lo and behold, the right hand column with all that extra info shows just as your screenshot showed It should. Absolutely bazaar... 

I wonder why or how it could be so absent when viewing the same Website address In Firefox or Google Chrome???


- Patrick
=======


----------



## groovetube

Patrick, it appears your screen (or browser) isn’t wide enough to accommodate the extra sidebar.


----------



## pm-r

groovetube said:


> Patrick, it appears your screen (or browser) isn’t wide enough to accommodate the extra sidebar.


Thanks for the thought, but I actually thought of that and tried setting the display to its highest resolution and no other right-hand column shows regardless of how wide I drag the window. 

It just does not exist when using Firefox or Chrome with Mavericks on this 2011 27 in iMac. Just one of those small goof-ups I guess. Not to worry as it's not super critical. But rather strange.


- Patrick
=======


----------



## Freddie_Biff

pm-r said:


> @Macfury
> Edit Update:
> I just thought I should maybe try using Safari and lo and behold, the right hand column with all that extra info shows just as your screenshot showed It should. Absolutely bazaar...
> 
> I wonder why or how it could be so absent when viewing the same Website address In Firefox or Google Chrome???
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


Perhaps Safari is the better browser.


----------



## pm-r

Freddie_Biff said:


> Perhaps Safari is the better browser.


For some maybe, but my version hasn't worked for years with many sites, even when it was supported, and that was the main reason I stopped using it. It just didn't bloody well work properly with just too many sites, so why use an application that doesn't normally work. But I did prefer to use it when it did work. I would like to see you got mail 


- Patrick
=======


----------



## groovetube

In any case. I’m quite amused watching the conservative leader adopt the liberal platform more and more each day in an attempt to get elected. Next you’ll tell me he’ll adopt the idea of a vaccine mandate!

oh wait…


----------



## MacDoc

*Brave* is the best browser currently IMNSHO.


----------



## Macfury

I frequently use Brave and like it quite well. Much faster than others.



MacDoc said:


> *Brave* is the best browser currently IMNSHO.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

pm-r said:


> For some maybe, but my version hasn't worked for years with many sites, even when it was supported, and that was the main reason I stopped using it. It just didn't bloody well work properly with just too many sites, so why use an application that doesn't normally work. But I did prefer to use it when it did work. I would like to see you got mail
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> =======


Works for me, but your mileage may vary. I also use Chrome, but I’m not crazy about it.


----------



## groovetube

Trudeau likes chrome so it must be bad.


----------



## FeXL

A 570 point plan? That's not about running a country. That's about controlling the populace.

Control, control, control.

*The Liberals' 570 fixes for Canada*



> Whether the exact number of Liberal promises is 516 or 518 or 570, it’s a lot of promises. Strangely, it’s a lot more than the 325 in their 2015 platform. I know there were 325 because I counted them and the Post ran my spreadsheet of them. But now, after six years in government, they have almost double that number of things they want to do — as if “appetite had grown by what it fed on,” as Hamlet says.
> 
> If I were considering coming to Canada and I heard that the party in charge for the last six years thought the place was still 570 ways imperfect, I might go elsewhere — which would at least ease the pressure on housing prices.


----------



## FeXL

Good! One for freedom of speech.

*Ezra Wins*




> VICTORY! Rebel News wins case against Trudeau gov’t, will send ELEVEN journalists to federal leaders’ debates!


----------



## groovetube

Ha! Isn’t this the same pathetic slimeball that whined in court he didn’t mean it cause he’s not a real news source but an ‘entertainment site’ but then complained when Notley wouldn’t let him into the press thing screaming freedom of speech?

Yeah sure you can send journalists. But if he ends up in court for his usual seriel defamation stunts he won’t be able to cry he isn't a real news source as a defense. Good on them for making him go through court to make sure that’s clear!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Good! One for freedom of speech.
> 
> *Ezra Wins*


Good news!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Ha! Isn’t this the same pathetic slimeball that whined in court he didn’t mean it cause he’s not a real news source but an ‘entertainment site’ but then complained when Notley wouldn’t let him into the press thing screaming freedom of speech?
> 
> Yeah sure you can send journalists. But if he ends up in court for his usual seriel defamation stunts he won’t be able to cry he isn't a real news source as a defense. Good on them for making him go through court to make sure that’s clear!


And the bastard grifts all his followers into paying all his legal costs too, just like a certain impeached ex-president of the US.


----------



## groovetube

I wonder if these two who are holding their hands to the sky in praise for this incredible ‘victory’ are sending in their money for his legal bills. We’ve seen his song and dance crying for money after he mouthed off defaming someone and refusing to back down after it became clear he was in the wrong. But no matter, when you’ve that many stooges who’ll pay your legal bills who cares right?

its good he had to go through court to gain access to ensure he can’t use his ‘I’m not a real news organization’ defence after he pulls the same bull. Sorta like Alex Jones no?

you can’t make this stuff up


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Remember to vote, kids! And if you vote CPC, make sure your friend votes PPC so they both get some votes. Spread the wealth!


----------



## Macfury

Yep, a lot of Trudeau supporters are making sure Jagmeet doesn't feel left out.


----------



## groovetube

I guess we will see which ‘liberal’ takes charge this evening. Lol.


----------



## MacDoc

more libs


https://www.cbc.ca/news


----------



## FeXL

Awwww. Prinz Blackface Groper-Elbowgate McSelfisox has another minority. That'll be a shot to his fragile female ego. He'll have to kneel before Jag's Meat again...

$600 million for nothing. In the middle of a pandemic.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Well ain’t that a surprise! Conservatives lose yet again. Awwww, so sad.


----------



## wonderings

Freddie_Biff said:


> Well ain’t that a surprise! Conservatives lose yet again. Awwww, so sad.


I think it is a loss for everyone. We will just be back at the polls again in a few years. Minority governments sound great in theory but no one plays along especially when both sides make it seem like life or death to remove the other side despite being so similar.


----------



## groovetube

Same as it ever was!


----------



## wonderings

groovetube said:


> Same as it ever was!


yeah, nothing really changes except we are out a few hundred million. Politics as usual!


----------



## groovetube

wonderings said:


> I think it is a loss for everyone. We will just be back at the polls again in a few years. Minority governments sound great in theory but no one plays along especially when both sides make it seem like life or death to remove the other side despite being so similar.


History shows that minority governments have accomplished great things.








How effective are federal minority governments?


A look at Canada’s seven minority governments over six decades shows a broad range of results that were not always so obvious at the time.




policyoptions.irpp.org






> The Pearson minorities (1963-65 and 1965-68)
> 
> The rose-coloured perspective on the productivity of minorities dates from Liberal Prime Minister Mike Pearson’s two minorities in the 1960s. With the passage of time, these years have come to be seen as a “golden age” of modern nation building. Supported by the NDP, Pearson’s Liberals put in place a bounty of progressive programs and initiatives, including universal coverage of hospitalization and medicare, the Canada and Quebec Pension Plans, the Canada Assistance Plan, the Canada Student Loans program, official bilingualism, the Maple Leaf flag and groundbreaking labour legislation that pioneered the 40-hour work week. Not only did these initiatives create much of the architecture of the modern Canadian state, but they also have had staying power, becoming part of the national fabric.
> 
> Little of this was apparent at the time. Despite these notable achievements, the politics of the period was uber-partisan and viciously personal. Pearson and the opposition leader, John Diefenbaker, regarded each other with undisguised contempt: each believed that the other was unworthy of high office. Pearson’s progressive modernization was anathema to Diefenbaker. And by this point in his career, Diefenbaker was at war with much of his own party and was imagining enemies and dastardly conspiracies at every turn. While Pearson and Diefenbaker hated each other, they did have lieutenants like George Hees for the Conservatives and Mitchell Sharp for the Liberals who could make deals.


I’m sure there’ll be a few snide remarks regarding these accomplishments, but that would miss the entire point. It isn’t about whether you agreed with a particular legislation passed, but addressing the point that minority governments don’t accomplish anything.



wonderings said:


> yeah, nothing really changes except we are out a few hundred million. Politics as usual!


Yep. Narcissism is strong here. Totally useless waste of money. I’m actually somewhat surprised Trudeau did as well as he did but not all ballots are counted yet. But then, look what he was running against. The lunatic side of the conservatives will never let go of it. And that’s why they will never govern federally until they can as Harper did, effectively neutralize them. O’Toole almost succeeded but ultimately failed. I’m sure we’ll see a few comments suggesting that the conservatives should have run ‘more conservative’, but clearly, we would be looking at a liberal majority if that happened.

but then there’s the looming vote split on the right. I’d say that’s fair, finally, because center to left has been split since forever with as much or more than 50% of the vote. But, the liberals still manage to win many elections. I’d say that speaks volumes as to where Canadians sit politically.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

wonderings said:


> I think it is a loss for everyone. We will just be back at the polls again in a few years. Minority governments sound great in theory but no one plays along especially when both sides make it seem like life or death to remove the other side despite being so similar.


It’s a win for the NDP. Not only did they gain seats, but they hold the balance of power. The Liberals need their support to get anything done. Seeing as they’re both (technically) left wing parties, that seems like a pretty good deal for Jagmeet and friends. He’s got good reason to be dancing.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Same as it ever was!


You may ask yourself…well…how did I get here?


----------



## groovetube

Well I’m pretty sure I woke up in my house and that is in fact, my automobile in the garage!


----------



## Macfury

Jagmeet better start producing some reasonable seat counts soon, or he'll be dancing out of Parliament.



Freddie_Biff said:


> It’s a win for the NDP. Not only did they gain seats, but they hold the balance of power. The Liberals need their support to get anything done. Seeing as they’re both (technically) left wing parties, that seems like a pretty good deal for Jagmeet and friends. He’s got good reason to be dancing.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I think it is a loss for everyone. We will just be back at the polls again in a few years. Minority governments sound great in theory but no one plays along especially when both sides make it seem like life or death to remove the other side despite being so similar.


I don't really want them to play along. They cause less trouble when their "vision" is hamstrung.


----------



## wonderings

Macfury said:


> I don't really want them to play along. They cause less trouble when their "vision" is hamstrung.


I think the idea of 2 opposite sides finding middle ground, both give and take on certain issues keeps people in balance and can stop radicalization happening on both sides. The state we are in now are the big 2 parties basically running campaigns "we can't let him win" or "we have to get him out of office" as if the other side was pure evil. How do you work together after campaigns like that? End of the day this was a pointless election that cost US money to bring us pretty much back to the same position we were in before. Why an election 2 years in? Not like he was running near the end of his term, he had plenty of time to do all the things he promised in an election without needing an election. Of course all that good does no good if you can't use it to get votes.


----------



## groovetube

wonderings said:


> I think the idea of 2 opposite sides finding middle ground, both give and take on certain issues keeps people in balance and can stop radicalization happening on both sides. The state we are in now are the big 2 parties basically running campaigns "we can't let him win" or "we have to get him out of office" as if the other side was pure evil. How do you work together after campaigns like that? End of the day this was a pointless election that cost US money to bring us pretty much back to the same position we were in before. Why an election 2 years in? Not like he was running near the end of his term, he had plenty of time to do all the things he promised in an election without needing an election. Of course all that good does no good if you can't use it to get votes.


I agree. I think you’ll find that there are those who would prefer the parties work together on solutions for the people they represent, and then there are the ones that want a government with maybe a third of the votes to ram their policies down everyone’s throats for a really ****ty 4 years (8 if we’re really unlucky?) and people wake up and toss them. I’m happy to see minorities and not majorities even the parties I may prefer. Majorities aren’t good for anyone, and I’d hope Trudeau would finally make good on his promises of electoral reform. If we take the carrot of a majority away perhaps we’d see less of the useless squandering of money for ego elections. We had them with Harper and now Trudeau is doing it.

I see having the parties cooperate on good legislation as a win for us.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Jagmeet better start producing some reasonable seat counts soon, or he'll be dancing out of Parliament.


??


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> The state we are in now are the big 2 parties basically running campaigns "we can't let him win" or "we have to get him out of office" as if the other side was pure evil. How do you work together after campaigns like that?


Because, when you get behind the scenes, they don't really hate each other at all. They go have lunch at the House of Commons cafeteria and clap each other on the back. It's like the lawyers that cut each other dead in court, then meet for a game of tennis and call their clients names.


----------



## Macfury

He's had years to turn that party around. Do you think that the party organization is happy with his performance?



Freddie_Biff said:


> ??


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> He's had years to turn that party around. Do you think that the party organization is happy with his performance?


Yup. He’s the kingmaker now. Not a bad position to be in. You’re stuck in the idea that a majority is the only effective way to govern.


----------



## Macfury

This is the second election involving a Singh-branded NDP party. They're not backing Singh so that he can continue to be a "kingmaker" by nipping at Trudeau's heels from the sidelines.



Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. He’s the kingmaker now. Not a bad position to be in. You’re stuck in the idea that a majority is the only effective way to govern.


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Yup. He’s the kingmaker now. Not a bad position to be in. You’re stuck in the idea that a majority is the only effective way to govern.


I think someone’s disappointed that the NDP didn’t siphon more votes from the liberals. In reality Singh will most likely maintain his seats perhaps even pick up a few. It remains to be seen if the party wants a leadership review or if that would be successful. I haven’t heard anything from the NDP circles at this point. I am hearing some chatter about O’Toole however. The thinking seems to be he was too progressive in this election. I like their thinking


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> I think someone’s disappointed that the NDP didn’t siphon more votes from the liberals. In reality Singh will most likely maintain his seats perhaps even pick up a few. It remains to be seen if the party wants a leadership review or if that would be successful. I haven’t heard anything from the NDP circles at this point. I am hearing some chatter about O’Toole however. The thinking seems to be he was too progressive in this election. I like their thinking


The NDP made more gains in this election than any other party. Good for them .


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> The NDP made more gains in this election than any other party. Good for them .


Singh is very well liked, and is getting a stride. I don’t see them removing him at this point. Unless anyone has some info I’m not aware of!

lt’s good that it will be the liberals and the NDP steering policy in this country for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Macfury

How do you figure that? Last CTV update shows BQ up 2.



Freddie_Biff said:


> The NDP made more gains in this election than any other party. Good for them .


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> How do you figure that? Last CTV update shows BQ up 2.


Silly micro-phallic gazer....They received more votes just like the CONS received more votes than the Liberal winners.


----------



## Macfury

Then the PPC's gains eclipse those of the NDP. Nice work!



FUXL said:


> They received more votes just like the CONS received more votes than the Liberal winners.


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> Then the PPC's gains eclipse those of the NDP. Nice work!


Lots of extremists on the Right, but when you add up the progressive or left of centre vote, the progressives are the majority. It's a fact.

Given the aging demography of the CPC voter we know that support is on the decline. So long Milton Friedman. So long Stevie Harper.


----------



## groovetube

FUXL said:


> Silly micro-phallic gazer....They received more votes just like the CONS received more votes than the Liberal winners.


They’re number 5 with a bullet!

I think he seems happier zooming in on dicks. This don’t seem his thing.


----------



## Macfury

I accept your apology.



FUXL said:


> Lots of extremists on the Right, but when you add up the progressive or left of centre vote, the progressives are the majority. It's a fact.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> How do you figure that? Last CTV update shows BQ up 2.


When I last checked they were up 5 seats since last time. Has that changed?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> I accept your apology.


He didn’t apologize. LOL


----------



## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> He didn’t apologize. LOL


Perhaps a mental short circuit?

this many failures can’t be easy.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Then the PPC's gains eclipse those of the NDP. Nice work!












boom!


----------



## FUXL

Macfury said:


> I accept your apology.


You belong in a penal colony.


----------



## Macfury

Yeah. Check again.



Freddie_Biff said:


> When I last checked they were up 5 seats since last time. Has that changed?


----------



## groovetube

Yeah we checked, the toilet is still the only one with a seat.

BAH HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA


----------



## groovetube

As long as you get your silver lining from calling some woman you don’t even know a ‘bitch’, all the power to ya.

pathetic.


----------



## Macfury

Yep. My ruling class kids will be lording it over your dependent, progressive progeny one day — we need more masses!



FUXL said:


> Given the aging demography of the CPC voter we know that support is on the decline. So long Milton Friedman. So long Stevie Harper.


----------



## MacDoc

'cept your voter class is dying rapidly off thanks to anti-vax nonsense. Last time I checked Davy Crockett died a couple of centuries ago.
You never had understood the *civi* in civilization
Your life is your own to the extent that it does not interfere with others.....at that point you have to negotiate,

Of course I could recommend a caribbean island where your dream could come true. Why you could even have your choice of guns.


----------



## FUXL

MacDoc said:


> 'cept your voter class is dying rapidly off thanks to anti-vax nonsense. Last time I checked Davy Crockett died a couple of centuries ago.
> You never had understood the *civi* in civilization
> Your life is your own to the extent that it does not interfere with others.....at that point you have to negotiate,
> 
> Of course I could recommend a caribbean island where your dream could come true. Why you could even have your choice of guns.
> View attachment 94173


Good point. In my view the election was going well for the CONS up until the gun ban became an issue in urban/suburban Canada. At that point the policy flip flops became obvious to voters.
No matter how and when the CONS move to the centre they are going to be forced to recognize that machine guns are just not wanted among the general population. I have a hard time understanding hunter's rights when you don't use a machine gun to kill deer/antelope, bear, etc. Gun nuts are gun nuts. They belong in another country.


----------



## groovetube

It also didn't help when the rest of the country got a good gander on how well the lunatic conservative policies of '**** it!" and removed all protective anything and opened wide open, mixed with nonsense messaging on vaccines resulting in one of the lower vaccine rates in the country.

Funny that. Low vaccine rates mixed with removing mask mandates, and look what happened. And these brainless numbskulls still won't admit it! 

Not me! Ida know! I never said that...

The sort of stuff little kids engage in:


----------



## Macfury

Did you copy this wholesale from the last time you posted it years ago? 

And what kind of innumerate nonsense are you spouting about COVID? It's supposedly killing conservative voters at an average age of 80 who are already in nursing homes? That's going to sting on voting day.



MacDoc said:


> 'cept your voter class is dying rapidly off thanks to anti-vax nonsense. Last time I checked Davy Crockett died a couple of centuries ago.
> You never had understood the *civi* in civilization
> Your life is your own to the extent that it does not interfere with others.....at that point you have to negotiate,
> 
> Of course I could recommend a caribbean island where your dream could come true. Why you could even have your choice of guns.
> View attachment 94173


----------



## groovetube

And the forum troll rages...

BAH HA HA HA HA HA


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> And what kind of innumerate nonsense are you spouting about COVID? It's supposedly killing conservative voters at an average age of 80 who are already in nursing homes? That's going to sting on voting day.


Wait... I thought the narrative was that the unvaxxed were killing off the vaxxed? 

Pick a side, boys, ya can't have both.


----------



## groovetube

These people really are, that stupid.

Even Doug Ford is getting it. And man that speaks!


----------



## FUXL

Cue the circus music:


----------



## groovetube

FUXL said:


> Cue the circus music:


HA HA HA HA


----------



## Macfury

It's called March of the Gladiators! Here's a full-throated version:


----------



## groovetube

Conservative on national council says members should review O'Toole's leadership


A Conservative who sits on the party's national council says Erin O'Toole should undergo an accelerated leadership review by members following his election loss, marking the first open challenge to him staying in the role.



www.ctvnews.ca





I LOVE IT!!!! These jokers are actually going after O’Toole for the very thing that may have made him more attractive to Canadian voters!! Yes they need a party leader that will more like the PPC! Mo’ guns! Mo’ corporate tax cuts for JOBS!!! Mo’ oil!!!! And fer gawd’s sake can they please go line by line focused LIKE A LASER so they can cut the **** out of veterans affairs and health and any other limp wristed socialist program!!! That oughta do’er!!!! Weeeeeeeeeeeeee!

BAH HA HA HA HA HA.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like the NDP didn't do any such thing. Jagmeet Singh took his party party from 39 members before the 2019 federal election to 24. Now he's stuck in neutral. All hail to the king (maker)!



Freddie_Biff said:


> The NDP made more gains in this election than any other party. Good for them .


----------



## groovetube

So the liberals, have 158 seats, and the party they split votes with that is a little further left, has 24 seats! That’s hmmmm carry the 4… 182 seats center to left!

the conservatives, have 119 seats, and the party they’re having some vote split with the PPC… gosh what was that joke about the toilet??? BAH HA HA HA HA HA. That’s gotta sting. And the conservative brass thinks they need to be more like the PPC! WAAAAAHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA!

then there’s the greens and the block, which I’m pretty sure we’ll hear are all conservative voters LOL.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Looks like the NDP didn't do any such thing. Jagmeet Singh took his party party from 39 members before the 2019 federal election to 24. Now he's stuck in neutral. All hail to the king (maker)!


What's really hilarious is that some of these Prog political geniuses think that, aside from the PPC (who isn't worth a vote because the leader is from central Canada), there's actually a _conservative_ party in Canada!  I guess when you think the Lieberals are moderate & the Commies are just a wee bit left of them...


----------



## groovetube

Exactly! What this country needs is a party that doesn’t appeal to the center!

I like where this is going!

I’m pretty sure what we REALLY need is some margerie Greene types filling a Toyota Prius with “COMMIE” written on the side with a 50 cal machine gun!!!! Put it on prime time tv here in Canada!!!!!! 

That’ll virtually guarantee a majority government!!! YEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Macfury said:


> Looks like the NDP didn't do any such thing. Jagmeet Singh took his party party from 39 members before the 2019 federal election to 24. Now he's stuck in neutral. All hail to the king (maker)!


My source says the NDP got 24 seats in 2019 and 25 seats in 2021. Not a gain of 5 as the original posted numbers reported but not nearly as bad what you’re presenting. Where are you getting your numbers from?


----------



## groovetube

The NDP got one more seat? Great!

The PPC still has yet to beat the common toilet


----------



## groovetube

Conservatives divided on fate of O'Toole, as party's MPs call for unity


The Conservative Party is facing internal strife as some insiders want to see Erin O'Toole ousted as leader, while newly elected MPs hope for some semblance of unity.




www.ctvnews.ca





Is there any news on whether the NDP are wanting to review Singh’s leadership?


----------



## Freddie_Biff

Freddie_Biff said:


> My source says the NDP got 24 seats in 2019 and 25 seats in 2021. Not a gain of 5 as the original posted numbers reported but not nearly as bad what you’re presenting. Where are you getting your numbers from?


Second call for cite, macfury.


----------



## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> Conservatives divided on fate of O'Toole, as party's MPs call for unity
> 
> 
> The Conservative Party is facing internal strife as some insiders want to see Erin O'Toole ousted as leader, while newly elected MPs hope for some semblance of unity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any news on whether the NDP are wanting to review Singh’s leadership?


I heard they’re happy with him. Quite unlike Jason Kenney in Alberta.


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## Macfury

Not sure what you're asking for. That the NDP lost 15 seats when Singh took over the party, that the NDP won 24 seats in 2019, or that it won only 25 in 2021?



Freddie_Biff said:


> Second call for cite, macfury.


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## groovetube

Freddie_Biff said:


> Second call for cite, macfury.


See? Just a troll. In other news, water is wet…

so far all we’re aware of, half the conservatives want O’Toole ousted. I wondered since there was much ado made about the NDP if there was any talk of this with Singh.

guess not!


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## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> See? Just a troll. In other news, water is wet…
> 
> so far all we’re aware of, half the conservatives want O’Toole ousted. I wondered since there was much ado made about the NDP if there was any talk of this with Singh.
> 
> guess not!


He counts from when it’s convenient for him, not from when the actual election cycles are.


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## groovetube

Just more childishness.


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## FUXL

From the Globe and Mail behind their paywall:

*Conservatives must solve their suburban conundrum*
John IbbitsonPublished September 27, 2021








Conservative leader Erin O'Toole speaks to supporters on election night in Oshawa, Ontario on September 20.
GEOFF ROBINS/AFP/Getty Images
The Conservative Party of Canada is at a dangerous tipping point. Despite the best efforts of leader Erin O’Toole, the party lost seats in suburban ridings in last week’s election.

The Conservatives are at risk of entering an ideological spiral in which they become disconnected from the communities in which more than two thirds of Canadians live, even as rural MPs dominate an increasingly out-of-touch caucus. The Tories are on the brink of rendering themselves unelectable.

They had a bad night in British Columbia’s Lower Mainland. In Steveston-Richmond East, Richmond Centre and Cloverdale-Langley City, incumbent Conservatives went down to defeat at the hands of Liberals. They lost Port Moody-Coquitlam to the NDP.

In Greater Toronto, the Conservatives could celebrate taking King-Vaughan away from the Grits. But they mourned the loss of incumbents in Aurora-Oak Ridges-Richmond Hill and Markham-Unionville.

The news isn’t entirely grim. An analysis by The Globe and Mail’s Chen Wang revealed that, while the Conservative share of the popular vote declined in Greater Vancouver between the 2019 and 2021 elections, the party’s share of the popular vote increased in the Greater Toronto regions of Peel, Durham and Halton.

Nonetheless, this fact remains: The Grits took 50 ridings in Greater Toronto. The Tories took six. That’s the election right there.

In Alberta, the Conservatives had Calgary Skyview, Edmonton Centre and Edmonton Griesbach taken away from them, by the Liberals in the first two cases and by the NDP in the third.

The few gains the Conservatives registered were in more rural ridings or smaller urban centres, such as Nova Scotia’s Cumberland-Colchester and South Shore-St. Margarets, and Ontario’s Peterborough-Kawartha.

The urbanization of the Liberal Party and ruralization of the Conservative Party has been steadily increasing since the 1960s, as authors Jack Lucas of the University of Calgary and Dave Armstrong and Zack Taylor of the University of Western Ontario point out in a new research paper.

“Canadians are currently experiencing the most profound urban-rural divide in support for the major political parties in the country’s history,” the authors conclude.

The Liberals win elections even when they lose the popular vote by profiting from suburban vote splits, while Conservatives rack up massive majorities in rural seats.

As Darrell Bricker, chief executive of the polling firm Ipsos Public Affairs, and I wrote in _The Big Shift: The Seismic Change in Canadian Politics, Business, and Culture and What It Means for Our Future_, a governing Conservative coalition consists of rural and suburban voters, leaving city centres to the progressives. But if the Conservative Party doesn’t win the suburbs around Toronto and Vancouver, that coalition can’t exist.

Both parties suffer as the rural-urban rift grows. The Liberals lose access to MPs who share the values and perspectives of rural folk. But the Conservatives lose much more: an intimate connection to the needs and wants of suburban voters, and with it the hope of winning elections.

*As the Conservative Party is increasingly frozen out of suburbia, it risks becoming captive to gun owners, evangelicals, climate-change skeptics, anti-vaxxers and other right-wing activists who have a strong rural base, but whose values are anathema to most suburbanites.*

The Tories also risk becoming captive to rural MPs who are absolutely safe in their seats, who know they will never be in cabinet, and who care less about winning government than about their own influence within the party.

One of the most telling aspects of the 2021 campaign was the damage the Conservatives inflicted on themselves by refusing to insist their candidates be vaccinated, and by proposing to loosen firearm restrictions. Both issues have some rural appeal; neither played well in the suburbs.

As they conduct their postmortem on the election loss, the Conservatives need to remember one fact above all others: Just as they can and should discount the strongly progressive elites who dominate the downtowns of big cities, because they are too few in number to decide elections, so, too, they can and should discount strongly conservative rural voters, who are also too few in number to decide elections.

The suburbs are where the votes are. Every time the Conservatives lose a suburban seat, their connection to that all-important constituency weakens. Every time that connection weakens, the chance of victory recedes.


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## Macfury

And how do you account for the failures of the NDP, Liberals and Greens?



FUXL said:


> From the Globe and Mail behind their paywall:


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## groovetube

It’s kinda like a Venus flytrap.


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## Freddie_Biff

groovetube said:


> It’s kinda like a Venus flytrap.


Same old same old.


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